Join us this episode as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, another National Park Service site right here in Kansas. Enjoy the conversation as we talk about the difficulties in preserving both natural and cultural resources.
Heather Brown: I started out at Fort Scott National Historic Site as a volunteer in 1988, many years ago. I kind of like talk about it like it's a marriage, you know, and it's a good marriage really. You know, there's ups and downs, but for the most part, they're a great organization to have a partnership with. Exactly what the last part of the Organic Act says, you know, leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment for future generations. And that's why we do what we do.
Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Heather Brown, the Chief of Interpretation at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, another National Park Service site right here in Kansas.
Ben Long: So, what is your official title?
Heather: I am the well, Chief of Interpretation or Visitor-- and Visitor Services or Supervisory Park Ranger, it just depends on which you want to state, but Chief of Interpretation.
Heather: and Visitor Services--
Heather: Yeah. A mouth word there.
Ben: And how long have you been there at Tallgrass?
Heather: I've been here at the park here at Tallgrass for 23 years. Got here in 2002 and been with the park service 31 years. So, it's been great.
Ben: Nice, so you've spent most of your time there at Tallgrass.
Heather: Uh-huh, sure have, yeah.
Kristin Keith: What's the size of your staff there now?
Heather: It's about half of what we normally have. The entire staff is eight, of the different divisions, there's eight full-time Park Service individuals with the different divisions. My team, I have two permanent staff positions, but they're not filled at this time. So, relying on seasonals. So, it's just myself and let's see, it'll be four seasonals by the next month, end of next month. So, two Park Ranger fives and two Visitor Services Assistant threes. So, but hey, we we're get by, we're just going to keep on rolling, it's how it is.
Ben: We're waiting on a couple seasonals here, too, as we're recording this. So, it'll be exciting that-- get them on board, get them trained, and hopefully get them excited about each of our parks.
Ben: Uh, no, what other parks have you worked at?
Heather: Well, I started out at Fort Scott National Historic Site as a volunteer in 1988, many years ago. I started working there as a cooperating association person, basically Western National Parks Association, I was a clerk. And then got married there and became a seasonal park ranger for I think five years from '90 well no, actually '92-- summers '92 to '95 and then I left. There was a hiring freeze, so, I had to apply for other agencies to get permanent status. So, I went to Fort Leavenworth and worked for the Department of Defense for about 9, 10 months. Got my permanent status and then from there I applied several places and one of them was including the Washington DC, all the memorials and monuments on the Mall and they picked me up. I didn't have any idea of going to DC, but my husband and I we went to Washington DC for a year and that was quite a great experience. You know I'm glad I was younger at the time, but there's a lot of people. I never could get used to so many people even at midnight, so many people all the time. So did that for a year and then I was fortunate enough to work for Jefferson National Expansion Memorial over at St. Louis. Were there almost six years and then I was fortunate enough to be back to Kansas which is home for me and be here at Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. So, it's been a good career, good life. Love it.
Ben: Yeah, I was talking with another ranger who had more recently worked on the National Mall and he-- one of his duties was going out and getting numbers just getting like a general number with one of those clickers and he said he just like constantly clicked for like 15 minutes.
Ben: Cuz it's just-- there's just so many people.
Ben: But it is it is a cool place. I've been there a couple times and it's-- there's some cool memorials.
Heather: There's a lot up there. I worked the night shift when I was back there., so, went in at 3:00 and got off at midnight and so as the traffic was leaving DC, I was coming in. So, the night-- the day shift though, they would have to leave two hours early in the morning just to get to work. And so, I was very fortunate that I didn't have to experience that.
Heather: That was-- I don't know that I could have done that.
Ben: Yeah, that's-- and anytime that I've gone there too, it just your feet are tired from walking every which way.
Heather: Yes, yeah. But it was beautiful at night, you know. And the vistiors were different at night, too. It seemed like they were, they're really the more experienced, you know, what there was to see and do and not just, you know, clicking something off of their check box, which is what the day shift seems like that they had to deal with a lot. So, you had a chance to do more programs and things at night and really visit with visitors and really help connect them to the park. So, I was I was thankful that I got to work the night shift.
Kristin: You said that you started your career as a volunteer. Do you work with a lot of volunteers where you are now?
Heather: I do. So, I'm in charge of the volunteer program here at the park and I just love our volunteers. We couldn't do, as you know, you can't do nearly everything at all without volunteers. There's just is not enough people power and just the energy that they bring to the table, they keep me going. I love my volunteers. So, we couldn't do our education programs, we have an outreach program for Title 1s it's the Open OutDoor for Kids and it was basically me and another volunteer this spring, That's it, you know, and we brought in kids and yeah, if it hadn't been for the volunteers, couldn't do it.
Kristin: Yep, Ben and I know what that's like with kids.
Ben: Kristin usually helps us out with most of our most if not all of our school programs. Most of our education here is bringing the kids here and we do the Open OutDoors for Kids grant too. And we-- the way we utilize it is helping reimburse some of the travel which helps a lot of these schools be able to see these different areas. They wouldn't be able to do that if it wasn't for that grant money, which is awesome.
Heather: Absolutely, yeah. We have kids basically just an hour away in Topeka and Wichita and we've had groups that some of the kids had-- it's crazy to think about this, but they'd never been off pavement. They'd never even, you know, been to a city park and it's just like they were almost stepping out onto Mars, you know, and to see such a wide open space and the grasses and it was as much of an experience for the kids as it was for us to see how they were responding to the environment, you know, until you really see that. They were just like, "Wow," just like they were stepping out into a totally different dimension. I'd never experienced that before that. So, it was it's a great program as you well know.
Ben: Yeah. Now mentioning that you're an hour away from Topeka and Wichita, what is the annual visitation there at Tallgrass?
Heather: We roughly-- between 30 and 35,000 and so believe it or not COVID had a good impact for us because you know we were all supposed to be social distancing, and you know being cooped up inside that's just hard to-- it's hard to do. And so, there's 11,000 acres for people to social distance out here. And so, they went out against orders, you know, and then they would be coming from all over. Whether they were passing through Kansas or they were here stationed, you know, or at the schools at Emporia State or whatever, they would come out and go hiking. And then when they found that we were here, that spread and that word of mouth really helped. So, weekends we'll see people on our main-- one of our main trails, it almost looks like a highway, but instead of, you know, cars, it's people. And of course, once we reintroduced the bison herd in '09, of course, people want to see the bison, want to see the bison. So, a lot of things for people to see. And but yeah, roughly between 30 and 35,000 a year come here.
Ben: That's awesome. Yeah. I didn't realize that the bison were reintroduced not that long ago.
Heather: Not too long ago, yes, yeah. We started out with 13 head from Wind Cave National Park in '09 and they basically were the most genetically pure bison available. And we still actually gain animals from Wind Cave because of the genetics, you know, 99% bison genetics. And so, but we of course let nature take its course, too, and so, we every fall we have a roundup. And so, we'll roughly take off between 20 and 25 head to make room for the next season's babies that come in. And we will either-- this also managed by the nature conservancy. So, we will either send them to zoos or other national conservation areas or even up for sale too. The last few years they've actually gone up for sale, some of the tribes have purchased them for food. So, there's just a different smattering of things that we do with the animals. But again, you know, it's-- we roughly try to keep about a hundred head here on the preserve and there's two pastures that we have specifically set aside for the bison and everything else is mostly-- is cattle grazing too. So, but yeah, fairly recently really in '09.
Kristin: What kind of feedback have you gotten from visitors about the bison and how has it impacted a visitor's experience do you think?
Heather: Well, you know, for visitors, they, like I said, we-- they love to see the bison. They love to come out and hike and see the bison in their natural state. And as you well know, it's really, we give them a safety message each time, and we have signs posted and we just want to make sure that people are safe because they're hiking right through the pasture, the bison pasture. And you, you know, Yellowstone, they have even less room visitor-wise. They're just right there with the bison. And so here, they have a little bit more area to kind of maybe get away from the bison, but people still sometimes they don't make wise choices. So far, we haven't had an incident, but I'm just oh so fearful that one of these days it's going to-- we've had some close calls, but no one ever has been tagged yet. But you know there's-- and probably subtle things too with the bison as far as like the prairie itself. I did ask you know our natural resource folks and they were saying that probably in small ways, it's impacted you know things like hair being used by other animals such as like for birds, nesting birds having-- because they do die sometimes the bison do die. So, you'll have fresh manure or the dead animals that are here all year long versus cattle that are only here for basically 90 days. And they also, the bison create grazing lawns, and they also have you know the wallows that they are also creating. So, you'll have basically some areas that are short grass in among the tall grasses because they're almost they're making like grazing lawns. And then there's differences in maybe the prairie vegetation because the cattle prefer more of the plants whereas the bison prefer more of the grasses actually. So, there will be a little bit of difference in the vegetation of the two-- of the pastures. So, we have, you know, Windmill Pasture is mainly the bison pasture and then we have the big pastures to the north which is 4,000 acres and then two pastures to the south of the Windmill Pasture. So those are grazed by cattle and so you'll see a little bit of difference in mainly the color and just the at the grasses and the plant makeup of the two. So, in probably small ways, but definitely for the visitor experience, it's made a big difference cuz people they want to see the bison. Our bookstore, anything that has bison on it, it sells, you know, it's amazing. But they-- people love to see the bison.
Ben: I mean, I can't blame them. It's one of my favorite animals.
Heather: And they're out here in the wintertime, too, cuz they're-- you know, the bison are here year-round. And so, seeing the animal in the natural state in the wintertime and seeing them use their head to move the snow apart, even though we don't have a lot of snow typically, but they'll move it aside to get to the grasses. And so, we do also supplement the bison too because we will give them range cubes. And we do also, if need be, we'll give them big bales because we want to make sure that they're they stay healthy. You know, we have an invested interest in the animals, too. So, it's important to preserve them.
Ben: No, and you mentioned a little while back that you have that partnership with the Nature Conservancy. What's the dynamic of that like? Because it's a very unique situation working hand in hand like that. So, what-- yeah, tell us a little bit about that.
Heather: Sure. I kind of like talk about it like it's a marriage, you know, and it's a good marriage really. You know, there's ups and downs, but for the most part, they're a great organization to have a partnership with. You know, they were not our first partner. The first partner was the National Park Trust, and we actually still partner with them, especially on education programs. They're the ones who take the funding for the OOK program and manage all of that for us. But the Nature Conservancy, they've been um our partner with us since 2005. And so, we have a general agreement with them, and it has kind of ebbed and flowed and changed different dynamics through the years, but they can sometimes move a lot faster as you know than how the Park Service, how the government works. And there's just-- there's a lot that you could actually talk about when it comes to the partnership with them. But they have great people. We work really well together. Sometimes they can purchase things that would take us forever to purchase. We can utilize each other's equipment, we've went through that different gamut, too. Again, working with the neighbors and the community, we all work really well together. They've made really good strides in helping with the neighbors burn, doing prescribed fire because we have to do that to keep the prairie a healthy prairie. So, yeah, just being those front people as well as the Park Service. Just the human element alone with the partnership is really good. Sometimes I know that staffing coming in, because this is a partnership park and so if you haven't worked in a partnership park, let's just say a superintendent comes in-- and that has never worked in a partnership park, sometimes it's a little bit hard to kind of wrap your head around because you know you don't have 100% control over the entire 11,000 acres. It is a partnership park. Only 34 acres of 11,000 is federally owned. And so, the rest of it is owned by the Nature Conservancy. And that was very important for us to even become a part of the Park Service actually because in the very early days there was a lot of mistrust and-- from our local communities, because the idea of a National Park Preservation for prairie was 100,000 acres. Well, this ranch, you know, is 11-- was 11,000 acres. And so, if you're a neighbor, you're going to do the math and say, well, the government's going to come in and they're going to take my land through eminent domain, you know. And that did happen uh to the north up towards Tuttle Creek and Manhattan and, you know, years before, people don't forget that. And so, our legislation was key to making sure that our neighbors had a voice at the table that everybody could come together because everybody loves the prairie, loves what we're doing, loves this area. And so, there was a common ground there, the prairie was the common ground. And our legislation actually states that no more than 180 acres of this preserve will ever be federally owned. It will always-- also the local taxes will be paid on the property because that's another big element in our community because government is tax exempt. And so, if the entire 11,000 acres was federal, then all of those property taxes would be gone, and our local economy needs those property taxes. So those two big things, assuring our neighbors that we're not going to come for your land, that was huge, and also the property taxes. So those two things alone in our enabling legislation helped a lot of those fears go to rest and then also working with our community, being a good neighbor, you know, doing what you say, you know, is huge because if you lose that trust, you never-- you can't get it back that easy. And so having our partners work together with the community as well, I say, you know, it's just been really a good partnership working together. And it was also with the National Park Trust, too. So we've been very fortunate to have a good partnership all along the way, but I don't know if that answers your question or not.
Kristin: Yeah. What are what are some of the other challenges or issues that come up with your preservation work? You know, you've talked about the trust of the surrounding community. What are some of the other challenges that you face?
Heather: Funding is for sure one of those things and people power. You know, having enough people to do what you need to do. Those are probably the biggest challenges too. You know, I thought about this too, the whole Organic Act, you know, preserving and pre--, you know, preserving an area for future generations, that's key. And it-- both for natural and cultural as well. Preserving the prairie is kind of unpredictable. You know, you can't just put a bubble over the entire 11,000 acres and lock it down, you know, whereas you really kind of you can somewhat with the cultural part of it. But for the prairie it's constantly-- you're always worried about invasives coming in you know because and again having enough people to manage that. Let's just say I'll show you an example like Sericea Lespedeza, that's one of those invasive prairie species that can come in and just obliterate your prairie if you're not careful. Old world blue stem is another one. And so, we are constantly using both prescribed fire but also, we have to sometimes just chemical treat as well. But you've got, you know, it's carried in by deer and we-- you can't contain the deer. They come in, it's on their fur, on their hooves, whatever, and they spread the seeds around. And so we have constantly people going out to do research and we're trying to make sure that everybody knows like for example what old world blue stem looks like and what Serecea looks like because once you know, if you're out and about and you see that it's really important to GPS it make sure that the natural resource folks know where you found that. Because we do keep track of all of those areas, and I can tell you that it has grown a little bit over the years and it's just because there's-- it's kind of hard to contain mother nature. Even as such as like the Topeka Shiner, you know, it's a threatened and endangered little minnow. We have the trails out here; there's 40 miles of hiking trails. And so, on our bus tour road, we bring in gravel, but it has to be from an area that we know does not have invasive species just like the two that I told you about. Because everything has an impact on the environment. If you bring in like gravel that has a bunch of invasives and it's washed down and it spreads and it grows, then you have just obliterated everything that you're trying to preserve and protect. So, it's just, you know, 11,000 acres is hard to contain as far as like preservation and conserve, but we keep going, we keep trying and just do the best we can and budgets and people. Yeah, it's tough to preserve it.
Phil Grossardt: All too soon, we’re a part of history. Help preserve our past, today. The Fort Larned Old Guard is a non-profit organization designated to benefit programs and operations at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Over the years, The Fort Larned Old Guard has bought artifacts with direct provenance to Fort Larned, commissioned paintings dealing with Fort Larned’s story, and much more. If you enjoy what we do at Fort Larned, please consider donating to The Fort Larned Old Guard or becoming a member. Visit www.ftlarnedoldguard.com for more details on donating and membership. What's a better way to close out the summer but by experiencing history for yourself? Like our Memorial Day weekend event, our Labor Day weekend event brings this frontier post to life with reenactors and living historians and offers you a fun way to learn about the past. Come for the sights, sounds, and smells of a frontier post and stay for the programs and demonstrations this Labor Day weekend, August 30th through September 1st. Programs and demonstrations will be happening Saturday through Monday. So come for one day or come for them all. We hope to see you there.
Ben: Speaking of preservation, though you're known for the nature there at Tallgrass, you also have historic structures there too. If you would tell us a little bit about what historic structures are there and what challenges you face with preserving those too.
Heather: Yeah, there's a lot that you could actually talk about there too because you know the cultural element has been here you know tens-- 10,000 years. So, you have the indigenous tribes, you have the ranching legacy. And so, our two big themes, we have five themes total, but the two biggest of course are the tall grass, and then you also have the ranching legacy and indigenous people. So, we have the historic ranch buildings, which you know, they're quite impressive. A historic ranch that was began in 1878, Mr. Jones, He was basically here to build a cattle feeding station. They were shipping their Colorado cattle on the railroad out here to the Flint Hills because at this time it was beginning to be well known that the grasses are extremely nutritious because the cattle when they were coming up from Texas, they were actually gaining weight when they made it to the Flint Hills. So that idea spread and that's what Mr. Jones and these brothers, they were big- time cattle ranchers, and by the time they made it here, they were towards the end of their career. So, they were only here on the property less than 10 years. So, you have though 150 more or whatever years of ranching legacy here, so, it's been a ranch ever since and even to some extent you could say that it's being ranched today. But you have those cultural elements, and we have a whole bottomland area that you know we had indigenous tribes that were here using this area for camping, for hunting, for gathering, you know, for agriculture. So, you have all of that element as well. And you also have some homestead sites that are here on the property. So, I like to talk about how the prairie and the people affected it, you know, each other because it did. You have the-- basically the stories of how the prairie shaped the people and how the people shaped the prairie. The two are so intertwined out here. So, but the buildings, people come to see the historic ranch buildings. We have an 1881 limestone mansion, 11 rooms, three story barn, massive barn, you know, the outbuildings. We have a one room schoolhouse that people enjoy seeing. And then we also, like I said, we have some of the little homestead sites that are out in among the prairie. We have corrals, they're pretty falling down, but we have some historic limestone fences that are still intact from when Mr. Jones had them built. So, we still have the foundations of those stone fences, so, there's a lot of cultural elements that make up the prairie as well. So, there's a lot going on here.
Kristin: Do you do any living history demonstrations in those buildings or is it just visitors just walk through them?
Heather: Absolutely, we do. And so, this year is kind of an anomaly, but in the in the past we have had weekly living history opportunities where volunteers come in and they dress out different time periods. Mostly right here starting with the 1880s, but we have special events coordinated and we're-- and actually we're venturing into like the 1920s, 1930s. We'll have tractor shows out here, we'll be demonstrating a historic haying, how they used to do with square bailers. And so that I think is really important to also, you know, keep going. We have wagon rides on certain occasions, we'll have barn dances in the past where people can actually, you know, help out, I mean, they can participate. But again, one thing I really feel strongly about too is to make sure that the kids understand just what we take for granted, you know, just as just like turning a water fountain, you know, on and you get running water and also hot running water. Making kids understand that it's totally different than without electricity and what it was like back in the day. But yeah, living history, I guess I-- that's one of my I love living history. I started out at Fort Scott doing living history. That's what really got me involved, I think, with the National Park Service because I loved-- I love doing all those programs, the living history, dressing out and doing all of that. So, I really want to make sure that people get to immerse themselves and really kind of walk away of maybe feeling like the house has been being lived in. I still have a long way to go to work on the exhibits, but it is on the goal to help people kind of feel like maybe just like what your park has done. Your exhibits are phenomenal, because I remember visiting and just thinking, gosh, am I supposed to be behind there's no barriers. Am I supposed to be here? You know, and it felt like the soldiers were just out in the field maybe. And I'm thinking that must be what you were trying to achieve because if it is, you did it. And I send people over to your fort all the time just because of that aspect just because of how the exhibits are so intuitive of how what it felt like back in the day. And that I think that's really what you want-- have people to feel that connection.
Heather: And I think I think you can achieve that if it's done well, you know, if it's done well, I think you can achieve that.
Ben: Yeah. And it does take a lot too. So, like over in the barracks, you can't be light-handed with stocking the shelves and the pegs and things like that. You got to-- So I think that's the tall barrier that that a lot of folks have found. But no, if we could somehow merge both parks so that we could have the-- those nice displays and then also the bison, that would be that'd be super cool. And I think that's-- because we have a-- we focus on the bison that were in this area a little bit on our exhibits. I think it just shocks people, what was it estimated 50 million bison on the plains?
Ben: But that's such a big number that you can't really comprehend until you start reading some of these firsthand accounts of just how vast these herds were as the white European settlers or even the Plains Indians were interacting with these herds and how...
Heather: And the pioneers you know coming to cross here and they would have to camp for days just to let the bison pass you know those diary accounts; I love reading those old diary accounts. It it's just the hardships alone, but just the day-to-day I find the most interesting is just the day-to-day hand accounts of what life was like, you know. And again, we talk about the bison and how between 30 and 60 million at one time down to less than a thousand. And we talk about, you know, the dynamic of the genetic makeup of the bison today are from those less than thousand animals. And it's like when you when you say that it's like wow that's amazing that you actually still have a bison that's like 99% bison genetics because the other 1% is just cattle and considering what it could have been and what it is today. It's amazing that it-- that it's-- they're going that they're even still here, yeah.
Ben: Yeah, that's something that I had never really thought of before myself. That's yeah, that's astonishing.
Heather: It is astonishing, you know, it's like, you know-- and I used-- sometimes when I'm, you know, if I had the right crowd, but you know, Teddy Roosevelt, he was a big hunter, you know, but he was one of those activists that wanted to see the bison remain, but yet his idea was, well, "I want them to be here so that I can go hunt them." It's like, what? Uh, okay, tou know. But it-- but in his way, yes. So, yeah, he helped conserve the bison.
Ben: Yeah. So I know we're running low on time here, but I did-- one question I wanted to make sure we got to was, and you've mentioned some of the things that you have, the goalposts you have in the future for Tallgrass. But coming from you, what are your hopes of what that park looks like 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now?
Heather: Well, I'm glad you asked that because, you know, I've thought about this over the years, but I never really put it into words, but couple things, you know, I love it here. So, I just want it to be so that we don't get so technologically advanced that we forget what it's like to go out and sit in the grass and hear the wind, you know, and feel the grasses and the wide open space. But also going into the historic buildings, you know, smelling-- I call it smelling history. Whether it's mold, mildew, or whatever, it still smells that historic smell. And I don't want that to be lost. I hope that we are always able to keep that in the forefront of our mind. You know, I've been here, like I said, 23 years and I was-- really had hoped that we would be further along in some of our cultural landscape because a lot of times people, you know, our name is Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, but I kind of feel like sometimes people forget that it's also 50% cultural as well. And so, I kind of feel like I'm always having to fight that battle just to make sure that people don't forget, you know, the people had a big part in the prairie as well, and so I don't want to forget that because it was the end of the open range area era as-- that we talk about as well for the ranching legacy. So, in our Long-Range Interpretive Plan I-- the whole bottomland area that we have in the Flint Hills here. So, it was all tall grass prairie as well but because of the makeup of the prairie you can't farm the upland prairie. So, it's excellent for grazing but you can't put a plow to the upland prairie because the stones are right there at the surface. So, the bottomland though is excellent for growing crops. And so, when Mr. Jones was here, he had acres of potatoes, he had orchards, and I hope that sometime before I retire or, you know, kick the bucket, that we can put some of that cultural area back. So people will definitely get a full appreciation and experience because that was-- on the-- about probably 15 years ago we were kind of felt like we were on that path to helping put back some of that that orchard area and to grow some of those crops because then it basically, what I call it is voices in the valley, and it's going to be a-- I'm hoping to have a timeline coming from the south going up here to the north where the park is to the Preserve Headquarters and you run through different time periods of people starting out with indigenous tribes, those early years, coming up through the bottomland era and you have areas where there are potentially campsites that were from indigenous tribes. But then you also have as you're going through the different time periods, you have waysides that talk about all the different people and all the different times and all the different things that were going down-- going on down there in the bottomland. All the different voices that were going through the bottomland until you finally reach, you know, the ranch which is a magnificent grouping of buildings. And so you have, you know, thousands of years starting from the south coming up through to where you are today. And that's what I'm hoping that we can achieve that because if that is the case then maybe the cultural side will also survive because people unfortunately you know if you don't have something to kind of visually see or go to do it's easy to bypass it. And so right now we're trying to get people to go down to the bottomland and we have a portion of the trail that is that's actually handicap accessible. We just finished that project, so it's wonderful. But doing more programs down there in the bottomland to help lead people down there and then also have waysides for people to see. And I've also thought about maybe-- and maybe this might be just through AI, I'm not sure, but working with a lot of the tribes to make sure that this is right or if even if we shouldn't be doing it. Having people's experience and a voice in what we see and do here as far as educating visitors, having people come in to share their stories. But that is one thing that I would like to see as well is to in expand the cultural side down there across the road but also making sure that people see-- continue to see the value of putting feet on the ground and not just, you know, look it up on their device. You know, because you cannot ever fully-- you can't really experience it until you're out there in the wide-open space. And I had a visitor many years ago tell me that for her the prairie was good medicine. And I told her I'm going to steal that and use that and I'm not going to take credit for that. And I will tell them that a visitor was who's the one who told me that. But it is, the prairie is good medicine. And that's the one thing that's so exciting about this park is because you know there's 11,000 acres and there's really something here for everyone. And to have the kids come out and experience it because I've talked to the kids too, I said, "Okay, maybe in the next 20 years when you come back with your own children, your own family, maybe you'll see some orchards down there in the bottomland or some crops growing." And some of them you can kind of see the little light bulbs coming on. So, you just never know how you're going to impact someone because I remember going to a National Park Service program when I was six up at Mount Rushmore. You know, it was a campfire program and that stuck with me, and I was six years old, but you know, I'm sure the ranger had you like, you know, it was just the job. It was what they were doing, you know, but you never know how you're going to-- what you're saying and doing is going to impact someone. And that's a way of preserving these areas, creating stewards for the future generations, which is all about the Organic Act of 1916. It's all about, you know, you can preserve and protect stuff, so we preserve and protect you know, that's great but if there's no one to experience it, no one to love it, no one to say, "So what?," why are you are you doing it? Are you doing it for just the names sake itself? Or you have to have-- I feel you have to have someone really appreciate it and that's exactly what the last part of the Organic Act says you know leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment for future generations and that's why we do what we do. And is it easy? No. Is it worth doing? Yes.
Heather: Those are just some of the things I hope to see in the next 5 to 30 years that hopefully we'll just keep going, you know, and that's for every park. Just keep on going and making those experiences and creating those lasting stewardships for the people -- we'll make an impact.
Ben: That's awesome. Yeah, that's a hope for all of us. Well, thank you for coming on and sharing a little bit about yourself and about Tallgrass. And I'm ashamed to admit that's the last of the Kansas parks I've yet to visit. But it is it is on the list, and I definitely need to get there. But yeah.
Ben: But yeah, thank you for coming on and hope you have a good rest of your day.
Heather: It was just nice to meet you.
Ben: Oh, it's nice to meet you, too. But you have a good one.
Heather: Hey, you too. Thanks so much.
Phil Grossardt: As always Fort Larned National Historic Site is open 7 days a week from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. and is just 6 miles west of Larned, so stop by for a visit. If you're interested in learning how you can help Fort Larned National Historic Site, give us a call at 620-285-6911 or email us at
[email protected] and ask us about volunteer opportunities. Now back to the rest of the episode.
Ben: Welcome to the discussion portion of the episode where we break down the interview and how it applies to Fort Larned. I'm Ranger Ben one of the Park Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site. I do a lot of work with our social media, obviously with the podcast as well, and enjoy living history a lot. I'm also joined by Kristin Keith.
Kristin: Thanks, Ben, for asking me to join you this year. I've been volunteering out here at Fort I think for around 10 years now, I enjoy doing living history working with school groups that come through with some education programs and tours. I'm involved in Fort Larned Old Guard, I'm currently serving as chair, and also part of the Santa Fe Trail Association, our local chapter, Wet/Dry Route Chapter and the Larned Historical Society.
Ben: First off, we want to thank each of you for taking a listen to that and apologize for the technical difficulties and the audio issues that happened throughout, but thank you for pushing through, thank you for listening, and yeah, that was a fantastic interview. Really loved talking with Heather and learning a little bit more about Tallgrass. One of the things that stuck out most to me, was just the idea of how people affect the prairie and the prairie affects people. Just sort of that back and forth, and it's interesting, too, how when looking at Fort Larned, you have this fort in the middle of the plains, in the middle of the prairie, but yet you still have the natural defenses around the fort. The people are still working with the geography and everything like that that's around here. So, we've got-- as you look at the fort from the top, we got the river on two sides and then the oxbow on the third side giving, as I like to say, a moat around the fort. And so, seeing how the landscape influenced some of those decisions too here as well is kind of cool to take a look at.
Kristin: Yeah, I mean, land provides you with everything you need if you look hard enough. And I think people develop such an emotional connection to whatever land it is that they're connected with, whether they own it or whether they're visiting a park. I think if you visit a place enough times, you develop that connection. I was pretty fascinated with a lot of the things that she was saying when she was talking about, you know, the power of the bison and their impact that they had on the land. And it just really made me, first of all, it gave me chills because I was just thinking about what a-- what an experience that would have been, you know with all your five senses if you were witnessing you know a herd of buffalo or really at any park that you go to if you-- if that park has done a really good job with presenting what they have, it's an immersion experience and all five senses, you get something there. And that just really stuck out to me with some of the things that she was saying. Which I think we, you know, you do a great job here at Fort Larned doing that, hitting all the senses, so, it was fun to hear somebody else talk about it.
Ben: Yeah, no, and that kind of reminds me of Eric's experience working in the bakery here in the last episode we had just talking about how places like that do-- and when you can engage all five senses, that just further connects people to what's there. I was, like I mentioned in the episode too, I was-- I didn't realize how recent the reintroduction of the bison was, but that it was really cool to hear, again, her talk about how it's influenced the ecosystem in the area, the bison versus the cattle and then also how it's affected the visitor experience for the better. And again, hopefully that that safety continues because bison are not an animal to be trifled with.
Kristin: Not real predictable, yeah.
Kristin: Yeah. Yeah, I made a note about that. You know, you always are-- you have to rely on the visitors to make good choices at the parks they visit, you know, so you're kind of at their mercy sometimes and hope people do the right thing.
Ben: Yeah. No, and one interesting thing along those notes that I heard one time, it sort of made the light bulb go off in my head was for herbivores, so for like your bison, deer, elk, things like that, everything to them is a threat and everything's coming after them. They're lower on the food chain, and so they're going to get defensive a lot quicker than say sure maybe a bear or wolf. That's not saying, right, go up and pet a bear.
Ben: But I think people think that, "Oh, this thing won't eat me, so it's not dangerous."
Ben: But it's actually quite the opposite. And definitely having the respect for the animals and then the respect for the prairie as well. The difficulties of making sure that the native prairie stays the native prairie is something that we deal with here at the fort too. Which I don't think a lot of people realize that we do have prairie here, that a lot like Tallgrass, we're trying to both restore and preserve and it's a constant fight trying to keep the invasive species out of here. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but we do have invasive species that we're battling, not the same ones, that I know of, that they're battling at Tallgrass. I mean, you have invasive species when it comes to animals, but you definitely have it when it comes to plants, too and that can drastically change the ecosystem. One of the things that I also enjoyed listening to her talk about was it's so important to connect with kids that come to these sites and watching the light bulb go off in their head, watching them connect to it because those are the people that have to continue the legacy of these places. And how do you um pique that interest so that's on their radar of something they might want to do? You know, with technology these days, it's just-- it seems like it's getting harder and harder to find those people that are interested in preserving history like it needs to be done, so.
Ben: And I think too-- and one thing that I've noticed in my own personal life is, as I've gotten older, I've gotten more vested in history. I mean, I've always had an interest in history, but even more so as I've gotten older, because I think as we get older, we see we're part of history, we're part of these things that change.
Kristin: That's a great point. Ben: And so then we have more of an interest
in it. But when you're in fourth grade learning about US history, it's a lot.
Ben: And especially how with the amount of material that history teachers have to go through, history isn't that interesting. Because again, you're just got your nose in a book the whole time looking at names and dates. But then when you come to a place like Fort Larned or Tallgrass Prairie where you have the historic structures and you can like Heather said smell history and engage more of those senses and here I like to say is the best classroom when you're learning about frontier forts and all that. Especially like Kansas history and things like that.
Kristin: Cuz it's so overwhelming when you're sitting in a classroom as a child, there's just so much. As an adult then you can pick and choose, you know, what's meaningful to you and focus on that, but it's good to expose kids to all kinds of different things, so.
Ben: Absolutely. And that's-- and again something else we touched on was that Open OutDoors for Kids grant through the National Park Foundation. And again here we work with the Fort Larned Old Guard, our friends group, to help give the transportation money because they're the ones that handle the or, I should say you're the ones that handle all that, all the funds for that to help reimburse some of that travel money that otherwise would be coming from-- completely from the school and these kids wouldn't be able to see again what I like to call the perfect classroom.
Kristin: Right, because what programs get cut when there's funding issues? So, you know, it's a great opportunity for schools to get those funds so they can continue field trips and take kids to have experiences and not just sit in a classroom.
Ben: That hands-on learning, especially when you're that age, really any age, but especially at that age, is so powerful. One note that I had made us as we were talking with Heather was sort of a goal that I have, and she was sort of touching on it too, especially when she was saying how she remembered going to that campfire program in Mount Rushmore when she was six. One thing that I've noticed when people talk about their experiences in parks and experiences from when they were kids, a lot of times it was, "Oh, I went to this program and this ranger was really good" or this this camp--, it was the campfire program, no doubt made an impact on her and she remembered it for a long time. But one of my goals is to provide an experience for visitors coming through that I then become one of those rangers that they remember that park because of that. And that that means tailoring the experience for each of the visitors, finding out what they're interested in. Cuz here at the fort, even though we got history, we got nature, we got architecture, engineering, science, anything that you're interested in, there's something here for you.
Ben: And I think when people see, oh, it's a historic site, I'm not really interested in history, I'm not going to go see it. But I think, like I said, there's something for everybody and finding that something for everybody can be a challenge, but when you're able to see those light bulbs go off, it's definitely rewarding.
Kristin: Yeah. The other note I took was in the very beginning of her interview, she said that there was actually something positive that came out of COVID and I hadn't even thought about how COVID had positive impacts. But especially for parks, you know, that have a vast outdoor experience, it's something I hadn't even thought about, so that was great.
Ben: That was cool. Alright, well, we thank you for listening to this episode and listening to our all our episodes this season. We hope you enjoyed them as much as we enjoyed making them and being a part of them. And keep an eye out next month for our bonus episode. But until next time, thanks for joining us and we hope you have a good one.
Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes. Share Footsteps with your friends and family and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X. And as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website, ww.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time, this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.
