DiveIn: Diving into Special Education's Most Complex and Pressing Debates

For Halloween, DiveIn brings you something truly frightening:

a statistical distribution.

Federico Waitoller talks to Rebecca Cruz, Assistant Professor at the Johns Hopkins University School of Education and coauthor, with Allison Firestone, of the new book The Ghost of the Bell Curve: Ableism in American Education and an Agenda for Change.

The book asks us to confront an uncomfortable idea: some of the assumptions that have historically shaped intelligence testing, disability classification, sorting, and educational exclusion never really disappeared.

They are still haunting us.

Rebecca and I discuss how the idea of the “average” became connected to notions of normality, how bell-curve thinking continues to shape education, and how ableism and racism become intertwined in systems of identification, discipline, and opportunity.

And then there is an interesting tension:

Rebecca critiques the legacy of the Bell Curve...

but she is also a quantitative researcher.

So can we use statistics to challenge inequities that statistics once helped create?

Can quantitative methods expose structural problems without reproducing the same assumptions about normality and difference?

We talk about critical quantitative research, QuantCrit, disproportionality, measurement, and what it would mean to build educational systems that treat human variability as expected rather than as evidence of deficiency.

Because the problem may not be the curve itself.

The problem is what happens when we turn a mathematical distribution into a story about who is normal—and who is not.

So turn off the lights.

Check under the bed.

Make sure there are no standardized tests hiding in the closet.

And Let’s DiveIn with Rebecca Cruz.

In this episode of our Inclusive Education Series, I talk with Dr. Lydia Ocasio-Stoutenburg, Associate Professor at Penn State, scholar, advocate, and mother, about what inclusive education looks like from a parent’s perspective.

We discuss a deceptively important question:

Whose knowledge counts?

Lydia and I talk about parent advocacy, collaboration with professionals, race and class, and why families do not all enter the special education system with the same resources or opportunities to be heard.

We also wrestle with the tension between believing in inclusion and making pragmatic choices. What happens when an inclusive setting does not provide adequate support? What happens when a child is being bullied, struggling, or simply happier somewhere else? Does choosing a more separate setting mean a parent has rejected inclusion—or are they making the best decision available within an imperfect system?

And because Lydia brings both scholarship and lived experience as a mother, we also explore what happens when the researcher studying special education becomes the parent navigating it.

Meanwhile, I disclose that my own parenting credentials may be questionable.

At the time of recording, my children were being watched by a babysitter whose online profile read:

“Great with children. No references. Cash only. Is it okay if I smoke in the house?”

I thought...

Good enough.

Parenting is about trust.

🎧 Join us for a conversation about inclusion from the other side of the IEP table.

Are you ready? Let’s DiveIn.

Good news: we found that one listener my show stats are telling me we have!

His name is James “Jamie” Basham.

Even better, he happens to be a Professor of Special Education at the University of Kansas and a leading scholar on Universal Design for Learning, instructional design, learner variability, and inclusive learning environments.

In this episode, we return to our Inclusive Education Series and move from the big conceptual debates to a practical question:

If we want inclusive classrooms, how do we actually design instruction for them?

Jamie and I talk about what UDL really means in practice, why learner variability should be expected from the beginning, and how instructional design can create more meaningful opportunities for students to participate and learn.

We also discuss why UDL is more than a checklist—or three attractive boxes on a PowerPoint slide.

Because ultimately, inclusion cannot live only in policy statements and philosophical debates.

At some point, the classroom door closes and somebody has to teach.

That is where design matters.

Are you ready? Let’s DiveIn with Jamie Basham.

Apparently, special education is moving.

Literally.

This week, DiveIn takes a short break from our Inclusive Education Series for an important update from Washington, D.C.

Kuna Tavalin from the Council for Exceptional Children returns to the podcast to help us make sense of the changes involving OSERS, the U.S. Department of Education, and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

I jokingly asked Kuna whether OSERS employees were actually walking around Washington carrying boxes from one federal agency to another.

It was a joke.

Or at least, I thought it was.

Kuna informed me that employees had, in fact, been given boxes and were packing their offices.

Unfortunately, reality continues to make satire about federal special education policy increasingly difficult.

But behind the moving boxes are much more serious questions.

What exactly is moving to HHS—and what remains at the Department of Education? Who will be responsible for implementing and overseeing IDEA? What happens to federal special education funding? What could separating special education from general K–12 education mean for students with disabilities? And could locating special education within a health agency reinforce a medical model of disability?

We also discuss the role of political leadership, concerns about autism policy, the possibility of IDEA funding becoming connected to the broader push for school vouchers, what Congress is doing, and what educators, families, researchers, and advocates should be watching next.

And believe it or not, Kuna even brings us some good news from Washington.

Not a lot.

Let's not get carried away.

At one point, Kuna tells me that I am basically speaking her nightmares out loud.

Which may be the best description of my interviewing style I have heard yet.

So, if you've been reading the headlines about OSERS, HHS, and the Department of Education and wondering...

“Wait. Who moved where? And who is actually in charge now?”

This episode is for you.

We'll unpack what we know, what remains unclear, and what all of this could mean for the future of federal special education policy.

And we'll try to figure out where all those boxes are going. 📦

Are you ready? Let's DiveIn.

What do inclusive education, intersectionality, the Global South, Italian anti-fascism, and almost dying on a Greek island have in common?

Apparently, one episode of DiveIn. 🎙️

In the fourth episode of our Inclusive Education Series, I sit down with my friend and colleague Valentina Migliarini, Associate Professor in Education Studies at the University of Birmingham, whose work examines inclusive education at the intersections of disability, race, migration, language, and social justice.

Valentina offers an unapologetically critical perspective on inclusive education. Drawing from her experiences growing up in Italy and her research across different international contexts, she argues that authentic inclusion requires much more than simply placing students with disabilities in general education classrooms. It requires us to rethink the structures, assumptions, and power relations that determine who belongs—and who gets pushed to the margins.

And I push her on some of those arguments.

Does full inclusion really have enough empirical evidence? What about students for whom inclusion appears not to work? And what exactly counts as “evidence” in the first place?

Oh, and about that Greek island...

Before discussing any of this, I finally tell the story of the night Valentina almost killed me.

It involves two very confident Italian women, a nearly empty gas tank, a rental car with an engine warning light, a getting lost in a Greek mountain in the middle of the night.

Valentina maintains that everything was under control.

I have a somewhat different interpretation of the evidence.

Perhaps this is why we ended up debating epistemology.

🎧 A provocative, international, occasionally argumentative—and potentially life-threatening—conversation about what inclusive education could and should become.

Are you ready?

Let’s DiveIn.

Transcript

email me at [email protected]

What does inclusive education really mean—and what have we learned since the Salamanca Statement placed it firmly on the international agenda more than three decades ago?

In the third episode of DiveIn’s Inclusive Education Series, Federico speaks with Mel Ainscow, Professor of Education at the University of Glasgow, Emeritus Professor at the University of Manchester, and one of the world’s leading scholars on inclusion and equity in education.

Mel brings a uniquely international and historical perspective to the conversation. He was directly involved in the work surrounding the 1994 Salamanca Statement, a landmark document that helped shape global thinking about the education of students with disabilities.

Together, Federico and Mel discuss how the meaning of inclusive education has evolved, what the Salamanca Statement accomplished, and why many education systems still struggle to turn inclusive principles into everyday practice. They explore what the research tells us about inclusion, the importance of examining students’ access, participation, and outcomes, and what Mel has learned from decades of working with schools, governments, and international organizations around the world.

The conversation also considers a central challenge: inclusion may be widely supported as an idea, but what does it actually take to make it happen across classrooms, schools, and entire education systems?

Naturally, the episode also addresses another international issue of great importance: the World Cup. The interview was recorded near the beginning of the tournament, before Argentina defeated England 2–1—something Federico has graciously and maturely decided not to mention to Mel again.

Well… mostly.

Whether you are a teacher, researcher, doctoral student, policymaker, or a marine biologist who has spent far too much time studying the mating habits of Antarctic squid, this episode offers a thoughtful and accessible conversation about where inclusive education has been—and where it still needs to go.

Are you ready?

Let’s DiveIn.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

You can contact me and leave me your comments at [email protected]

Leave us a comment in our discord channel.

Can students with disabilities be fully included in general education classrooms? Or are there times when separate, specialized instruction is not only appropriate but necessary?

In the second episode of our Inclusive Education Series, I sit down with Doug Fuchs, one of the most influential special education researchers of the last four decades. Doug offers a perspective that challenges many of the assumptions behind today's inclusion movement.

We discuss what inclusive education actually means, why he believes the general education classroom should always be the starting point—but not always the ending point—and why he argues that some students will continue to need specialized instruction outside the general classroom.

Along the way, we tackle some of the biggest questions in the field:

• Is inclusive education supported by strong empirical evidence?

• Is the debate really about rights and belonging, or about effective instruction?

• Has special education become the problem—or is it still part of the solution?

• Can we improve general education enough to serve all learners?

• Is there common ground between advocates of full inclusion and those who support a continuum of services?

As always on DiveIn, I don't let my guests off easy. We talk about the politics of research, randomized controlled trials, Response to Intervention, Multi-Tiered Systems of Support, IDEA, and why Doug believes the disability community needs fewer internal battles and more collaboration.

Whether you agree with Doug or not, this conversation will challenge you to think more deeply about one of the most important debates in the teaching and learning of students with disabilities.

Leave us a comment in our discord channel.

Are you ready?

Let's DiveIn.

TRANSCRIPT

What does inclusive education actually mean? Is it a place, a practice, a political commitment—or an aspiration we may never fully achieve?

In the first episode of Season 4 and the opening conversation of DiveIn’s special series on inclusive education, Federico talks with David J. Connor, Professor Emeritus at Hunter College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and one of the leading scholars in Disability Studies in Education and DisCrit.

Connor traces the roots of inclusive education beyond legislation and special education policy to the Civil Rights and Disability Rights movements. He reflects on the emergence of Disability Studies in Education, its complicated relationship with traditional special education, and why he believes disability should be understood as a form of human diversity rather than simply a deficit to be fixed.

But this is not a conversation without pushback.

Federico challenges Connor with some of the strongest arguments against full inclusion: Does inclusive education actually have a strong empirical base? Can separate schools provide meaningful disability community and collective identity? What about students with complex support needs? And should families have the right to choose specialized settings?

They also discuss whether research can ever truly be objective, why inclusive education needs a plurality of research methods, the importance of listening to disabled students and adults, and what the next frontier of inclusive education may be.

And, because this is DiveIn, they also find time to discuss the World Cup, dangerous levels of soccer-related couch attachment, and David’s suspicious refusal to choose between England, the United States, and Argentina.

Season 4 starts here.

Are you ready?

Let’s DiveIn.

This is the trailer for Season 4 of Dive in and the new series on inclusive education

As we gear up for DiveIn's upcoming season 4 and a new series on inclusive education, we're revisiting a conversation that offers the perfect starting point: a global perspective on inclusion, disability, and educational equity.

In this episode, Federico talks with Maya Kalyanpur, professor in the Department of Teaching and Learning at the University of San Diego. Dr. Kalyanpur began her career teaching children with intellectual disabilities in India, served as an advisor on inclusive education to Cambodia's Ministry of Education, and has conducted research throughout South Asia and the United States.

Together, they explore:

• What we mean when we talk about the Global South and why the term is more political than geographic
• How disability and inclusion are understood differently across cultural contexts
• Why educational models developed in the United States and other Western countries do not always translate well to other parts of the world
• The tensions between international inclusion policies and local knowledge
• Lessons from India and other countries about community, family, work, and disability
• How educational systems can unintentionally create new forms of exclusion while attempting to promote inclusion
• What scholars and practitioners in the United States can learn from the Global South
• Why humility, collaboration, and listening to communities are essential for advancing equity in special education

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Kalyanpur challenges us to rethink some of the assumptions we take for granted about disability, schooling, independence, and inclusion. Rather than exporting solutions from the Global North, she argues for building educational systems that emerge from the cultural values, histories, and lived experiences of local communities.

As DiveIn prepares to launch its new series on inclusive education, this episode provides an important reminder: before debating how inclusion should happen, we need to ask whose perspectives are shaping our understanding of what inclusion means.