In this episode, Dan is joined by the amazing Emaan Gohar and Jannet Gohar, technical interns at Microsoft. We explore the pathways into tech and their learnings so far.  

• Schools outreach programs | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 
• U@Uni Academy | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 
• Women in Engineering and IT Cooperative Scholarship | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) 

“This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own.”

 

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 8

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

 

 

Hi everybody, welcome to the AI podcast. Today we're going to be doing our second part of hiring technology series and today we've got two special guests. We got Janet and Iman Goha who are interns interning at Microsoft and they've got some great stories to tell. So welcome both. Thank you Dan and hello to you too. Yes, I can't wait to can't wait to hear from you guys. So, so maybe at the beginning today, so to give you some context, we talked in the last uh podcast episode about hiring in technology and Beth Lee and I talked about, you know, the ways is different now after COVID, the expectations of people in jobs, even not just in tech, but people kind of thinking about hybrid work and and I suppose when you're interning at company, you know, you guys are at Microsoft at the minute, but but Normally when we looking at people who are interning, they obviously also um spend some time kind of in uni as well. And it always like fascinates me the amount of dedication you have. You're kind of in uni and then you're in in a work environment with quite a lot of responsibilities. And I always take my hat off to you guys. So maybe what we could do is s think about um uh just you tell us your story about kind of what you're studying and and kind of how you've come into the the roles you're in and why you've chosen tech. So maybe pass to Janet first to give give us your kind of story there. Yeah, thank you so much Dan for having us on here and um just to give a bit of introduction about myself. My name is Janet Go and I'm actually studying a bachelor of engineering majoring in software at UTS and um you know I'm in my final year. It's exciting. I'm going to graduate soon. Um a little bit nervous because I think getting ready for the real world is also a bit nerve-wracking. So um yeah, it's really interesting to see how or have grown since first year of uni till my last year of uni and getting two years kind of taken away from me after that because of co. So it's been an interesting ride so far. I'm currently actually interning as a customer engineer um at Microsoft which has been an amazing past couple of months and it's truly amazing to see how much I've grown just the past couple of months here and how supportive everyone's been. And I think aside from all work talk um you know a bit about just kind of what I do outside all this is that I really enjoy mentoring high school students and high school students coming from underrepresented communities. I'm very much passionate about that and I think we truly need more representation from underrepresented communities to give children and students an understanding that you know if I can do it and if I can overcome these adversities so can you. And I very much kind of go in high schools uh school you know primary schools deliver workshops um with my colleagues with my you know um peers and um kind of try to inspire students and see how their eyes ladder up when they get their robots working and you know running and it's really amazing to see how much of an influence that you can have just by going in and being a representation. So um so you do that as part of uni sorry to interrupt you but do you do that as part of uni stuff as well or do you have like programs you do that and engage uni or is that via your your time at Microsoft or a bit of both? So a bit of both actually. So Microsoft has two programs. So uh code protege and um Microsoft Student Accelerator. Um but I've been a lot more involved with uni um prior to Microsoft. So um they have heaps of different programs. So they've got like outreach programs, they've got the you uni academy um and you know they get a lot of um high schools and schools that are um coming from underrepresented community and lower socioeconomic communities to kind of come in and um see how much um representation there is at uni and how they can be really influenced with the skills that they have and use those skills to um basically involve as individuals. So it's truly amazing how so many people out here are doing so much for students uh especially coming under represent communities. Yeah, that's such a such an amazing story to go from you the UTS engineering side and then into the interning and then at the same time trying to fulfill your own desires to kind of support you know and represented uh areas in and in honesty areas but but people from various backgrounds whether it's women and people from different socioeconomic backgrounds that's like phenomenal and Iman from your point of view how was your journey has your journey been similar or or different yeah thanks Dan for asking that and I think my journey has been very different in the sense where um yeah we are sisters but we we've had different kind of support we have different kind of journeys and it's for me myself I I'm studying software engineering and I'm in my final fourth year as well but my my journey has been very more much more like a roller coaster. Um I graduated high school in 2018 and um and I know Dan we discussed this before. I studied off as um an optometrist before and did a year of that. Absolutely did not like it. Then I moved to do law and science and then I'm like is this really it for me? But you know um Dan like this is what best about having you know like friend circles or just people you know that are involved in tech or engineering that you get to see the fun bits that they're doing. And I saw that in my sister and I was involved in quite a few societies and programs like her and um had a lot of discussions about tech. So I got into engineering and I haven't looked back since then and um I've been doing that for the past few years and I just enjoy what I do and when I got the opportunity to just browse around on the internet one day um bored out of my mind and I saw Microsoft and applied here I I get to do amazing stuff here as an ATS intern and I'm in education space with you. So it's it's crazy how life works, right? So how did that how did that processor been? So when you were in your third year of uni, uh you were kind of looking uh online and saw internships. Is that is that what happened for both of you? Did you both see the internship stuff light up? And had you looked at internships before? For myself, this was actually one of my first big internships. So I took a big jump off um like you know, leap of faith and I saw LinkedIn one day and I saw people working at Microsoft. Um I looked into the jobs and I saw internships and I just clicked and it was a dodgy in the sense that should I go for it or should I not going to accept me then I'm going to accept him but you know what Dan I went for it I 100% I went for it and I applied my way through a LinkedIn and um now I am here yeah that that is so cool John was a similar experience for you and were you because you you obviously come from that um purist point of view where it was something you were going to focus on um was was that a similar experience for you actually a very much different experience from Iman and yeah and um so when I applied to engineering. I very much didn't have much support from my parents and my parents wanted me to do something within the medical field being migrant parents. Um that was something that they very much wanted me to do and um I remember the first couple of years I when I did engineering I could tell that you know they weren't really okay with the idea of me doing engineering. One of the main reasons is because um you know it's it's very much male-dominated and you know because there's a lack of female representation not just that I do come from a Muslim background and do wear hijab so a headscarf and um they just didn't they very much wanted to protect me from the discrimination that I would face if I was to kind of pursue a career in this field and you know I I applied I got in and it was a very much shock to them because they thought I was going to do pharmacy and I remember leading them on over the past couple of years in high school like I'm going to do pharmacy and then when I got into engineering they were so shocked and um two weeks after I uh accepted my degree I got a call from the uni saying that you know you can apply to this scholar ship and within the scholarship it was like a four-year scholarship that I'd gotten and it was a program where we'd get three industry placements and um over the four years I would be working within the industry. So one three month and two six month internships I'd gotten over the um four years of my degree and when I'd uh interviewed I got in it was so it was so surreal because I still still did not believe that I'd gotten in after signing my contract and um I think for me one of the biggest things is that when you come from like a school where you know a you didn't really much h you didn't have support from your teachers and you were very much undermined with your capabilities um you weren't supported with the skills that you had um when you come from very much that your your insecurities kind of go in the way of like oh wow like I actually got in and I still to this day don't believe that you know I was able to do all this throughout the past couple of years of my career and um I remember distinctly last year so it was my final internship my program and um one of my mentors was like to me at my internship he's like you know you should apply to other internships you know um get a different experience get an experience get an experience on how to um be interviewed in the industry and other organizations and I applied I applied to a couple of internships and I ended up applying to Microsoft I'm like okay look if I don't get in I don't get in if I apply but I won't get in if I don't apply so ended up applying got a very dodgy email dodgy email I remember because I know Iman also died and I remember 2:00 a.m. in the morning going to her bedroom. I'm like, "Eiman, did you get the email?" And then she's just like half dozing off and she's like, "I have no idea." So the next morning I had to go in again cuz she had no idea I came into a room. Um, and it's been history since then. And I think, you know, a lot of people will say would have very much similar experiences because we're siblings, but we both have a completely different journey with how we've grown over the past couple of years. So that's been my experience. Am Yeah, I just wanted to add in her bit and I think this is a lot of um these stories that we hear not many people tend to relate to them and I like talking about our stories my sisters and mine because my story was different to hers. I was third year university still yet to get experience just changed into my third course and I thought that I wouldn't be able to get in into any industry experiences and I used to compare myself to other people and say they already been to three industry placements they have so much experience up there but I had the passion and drive and I've got bit of experience in other places, but like you sometimes you when you match your stories and you match your experience and expertise, you let yourself down and your insecurities just grow and grow and grow. But I think applying to Microsoft and taking that jump, I feel like everyone should regardless of what their background is and what their story is. Oh, it's it's phenomenal to hear your stories there. And and how do you find, you know, that that entire process of hiring things like that, you know, did you did you um what was your what was your thoughts? reflect on, you know, going into that process I when when you know you jumped in with those other other people and you had to do some tasks. Can you reflect back on that and how did I feel? You know, I remember those there was around um three two rounds and I remember them as fresh as it can be really because it's been the most impactful interviews and conversations I've had. You know, Dan, the first interview we had was like um the hiring process gets really sometimes really tough in the sense you have your ups and lows. You doubt what you say. You always double think that am I going to get in the next round? Am I going to get um forward or no? And when you get you have the fear of rejection as well. If I get rejected, I'm not going to get in place anywhere else. So those are the thoughts that run your mind since the very beginning. Even when you get an email and say, "Hey, we want to push you on to the next round." And when you compare with other technical interviews in other industries, very similar. But with Microsoft here, when we when I did get in and our one of the first rounds we had was group interviews. Dan, sometimes a lot of people have the perception that you want to be really competitive. You want to be out there. You want to show yourself the most attractive to the recruiters. That's good. That's really good. But no, what I realized is I made the best of friends in those group interviews. We connected later on LinkedIn. We had lots of chats about tech. And we collaborated so well in the less amount of time frame because we had so much passion for technology. They all had similar stories. So while we were doing our bits and bits of tasks and all we were all talking about why we got here and what we want to get out of this. So it's sometimes you expect a list of um experiences and stories from this in these type of situations. So in our when you move on to the later rounds um and still having those thoughts am I going to get in? I should have done this. Was it what I did? Was it enough? Um when you go into the group interviews and we spoke to the hiring managers I know Dan you you interviewed me right we had a really good conversation about diversity inclusion. The thing is And um if you compare it to other technical interviews and other um places that I um interviewed at, Microsoft was the one hiring process where they gave me the voice and they gave me the platform to talk about myself, my passions and what I like and not like. It wasn't more about what we want to see in you. It was more about what I get out of you. So that's that's what I connected the best with and it's why I remember it saw as fresh. So what Janet, was it a similar experience for you or different? Um very much a similar experience I think throughout the hiring process. And for me it's also I think the two different um personality traits between me and Iman is I'm very like you will put me in a social setting and I will talk to anyone there even if I have I don't know anyone there and um the whole recruitment process. So um alongside Microsoft I was actually being interviewed for other um internships too and I think a key difference at Microsoft he was that Microsoft is very much focused on empowering individuals and empowering their employees. and very much on how you can grow at this organization and I did not see that in other places and I remember distinctly asking um a few questions on diversity and it wasn't those regurgitated responses on what HR wants you to um do it was very much authentic to itself and when having those conversations I felt at calm and at peace that knowing that if I do get in and if I do if the recruiters and the hiring managers do see me capable of being in this internship I won't um be worried that you know I can't be my authentic self and truly Dan this is probably one of the first times um when I'm like you know interning and working in an organization where I can be who I am as an individual and as I mentioned this already is that I do come from I do I am Muslim and um I am able to openly talk about being Muslim and talk about the practices that I um do. So Ramadan had come up a couple of months ago and my manager had told me like you know write a post about what Ramadan learn is and talk about what it is and how you grow as an individual. And till this day, she constantly says that, you know, it was such a well-ritten response and I learned so much from that key piece. And I never had anyone say that to me and I just truly feel very comfortable in my own skin here. And the whole recruitment process, I remember it was just very much like a conversation, you know, talking to them and I was just like how this podcast is. So I think if you bring your authentic self onto the table, that's what very much matters is people see through that and people will see whether you're true to yourself and understand who you are as an individual. Yeah, absolutely. And and from from the other side of the table when you look into those things, you know, all everybody thinks I with technology there's this myth about, you know, the way that certain companies, you know, bring people on and and ask certain questions and try to ask things that really tricky to answer and things. But actually, like the entire process, which I've been involved in anyway, is is all about trying to set activities so you can, you know, see what people are like genuinely. And it's not really trying to trip anybody up. It's trying to give you enough scenarios and enough space to be your authentic self. So you can come to the interview and you can say, "This is what I do care about and this is why I do want to work for company X." And um and and you know, I I know Iman's your your your interview, it went so well because you can understand what you're passionate about. You know, it was diversity, inclusion, and then you can pivot it around. Well, how is how how are you going to use Microsoft to to forward that um kind of imperative that you wanted to do? How you exactly like you said, how can you make Microsoft um you know, work for you, you know, as well as you work for Microsoft and drive those things. But, you know, I think um uh when you when you think back to it and if you're giving people advice, I suppose about applying for internships and things, what would you you kind of tell people I suppose in your situations now imam you know Dan um I got the opportunity to go to take New South Wales last week with the yeah it was absolutely crazy and so good because they were all my age and they've been all in similar experiences and boats but one key thing I took out of it there was this one young girl she came up to me and she asked me about my experience after our chat and she also changed a lot of courses to get into TA and she's like and she's like um Iman I think I'm a failure I I think I what I did wasn't enough. Um I'm 21 years of age. I don't everyone is so ahead of me. And I look at her in the eye and I'm like I was in your boat and I thought the same as well. But the thing is that no one gives us the reassurance that one we're not failures. Two, we've got a whole life planned out. And three, when we have those thoughts in our head, we absolutely ignore the fact that we need to apply to these tech companies or apply to technology areas where you can actually give your input you're passionate about. And I told her, I'm like, "Regardless of what you're thinking, that's what your environment is making you feel, but go ahead, apply. Apply to wherever you feel like you should go and be open about having these conversations because, you know, Dan, a lot of a lot of these young people and a lot of early careers feel like that." And also post pandemic, the pandemic has absolutely ruined our mental health state in the sense where we constantly ask ourel that I'm not enough. I'm not enough. I haven't done enough, I've been to uni, I'm all over the place. But This is something and they have so much passion and drive when you break all these layers. They're so passionate about technology and what in engineering as well and a lot of a lot of young people are like this and I keep I keep having these conversations and I had another one from um another school in outreach when I went at UTS and they they all they all think they're not enough and I just want to tell them to put yourself out there and apply to these areas because we want people like you that are passionate and there's room for growth and it's never too late. Yeah. It's interesting to say that COVID lens on it as well because um Janet I suppose you've seen a couple of different internships during your time going through as well. So like how's that you know going to those different places and and also being affected by COVID in those times as well and and I think confidence um what would your advice be I suppose uh what are your thoughts on that um in terms of interviewing Dan? Yeah and and and the different internships I suppose is a very question sorry. Oh for sure. No. No, all good. And um I I'll start with the internships and beginning in understanding what it was like prior to co and now during co and I think one of the biggest things is that um prior to co I remember just sitting there in a room when meetings would happen never giving my input in because I would feel very much intimidated by the people around me. Um but now that um and and there's always you know pros and cons to every situation but I think one of the positives towards being able to work online and being able to work hybrid is that you know you don't get intimidated by a group of people that are sitting in front of you. You're online on teams and you can give that input in and I truly think that's beautiful because I think I've been a lot more outspoken after um not conducting meetings in a group of in a meeting room and um it I I truly think that's amazing and I've very much um changed from being that quiet intern in a room to be able to you know give my input in and um talk about my own opinions and have that discussion with other group members there. Um I do believe that sometimes it can be really difficult to you know as Iman also mentioned is that our mental health is really important and with co it's been really difficult um being able to maintain relationships and I think prior to co we'll be able to maintain um relationships as interns and as grads and being able to have that connection there because there's a relatability you know we're on the same boat but because we're now we're online it's a lot more difficult to keep that maintenance of that relationship and um how do we kind of get out of that kind of hybrid learning and be able to have a relationship with other EIC's early inquiries and um I think that's truly important and there there are a couple of things that you know um we can tackle here but those are a few highlights I think from co um the interview thing so so like that's really interesting perspective on then from all your your understanding of that so what would your uh thoughts be if you were giving somebody some advice about going through that process yourself for sure and you know one thing I'd say is be reflective of who you are and each stage um of your life where you're at. You know, if you're in your early 20s, be reflective of who you are um and understand what makes you you. And as cliche as that sounds, being your authentic self and being able to talk about the adversities um is really important. Being able to talk about how you got where you are today because I can say I go to a random person and say, "Oh, I'm an um I'm an internet Microsoft, but you know, I I had a you know, a lot of adversities I had to face before I can kind of intern here at Microsoft and very much um adversities that sometimes I'm not comfortable talking um to people about but when I mentor high school students um that's what I discuss with them talked talking to them about you know I didn't get here because I just applied and got here I had to do all these things you know I faced crippling imposter syndrome I wanted to also get the validation of my parents um you know um maintain my marks at uni there are a lot of things that were there that really contributed towards where I am today. And being your authentic self and talking about those adversities is really important because that is where um we bring in perspective. Our experiences make us bring in perspective and um you know that's where diversity and inclusivity we can talk about all this um but that's one thing that I would say be reflective of who you are and then whilst you're reflecting understand what you can bring into an interview process um but in from like a tech standpoint Um I would say especially when you're as an intern don't be shy to say oh you're not aware or you don't you don't have much information um on for example if it's about security and you don't know much about security you can say that to your interviewer but just say also that you know I'm willing to go in and upskill myself in that area um and that's what tech tech you know the tech field is about you can upskill yourself on the job and don't be shy to say that because that also shows that you know you know you've got a gap and you know where to fill that gap up. Totally. Yeah, that's that's great. There's some good really good advice there and and like I loved listening to your stories and I think our final questions to wrap up today would be what everybody's probably asking is what's next for you both, you know? So for me, you know, like now I've got a really good understanding of where you've come from, how that process has worked, how you've gone through and in different ways, done several internships, done one internship, bounced around different courses, and then you've you've come out the end the kind of education machine I suppose to a certain level now and um it's kind of what's next what do you do next you know what what what are the kind of processes you follow you know do you uh apply for jobs internally to the companies you're interning in do you look externally how does how does that all work what is your what is your mindset and obviously you've been really busy in uni going through all of the co stuff so do you have a gap do you take a breather or what do you think about so so Iman for you, what's your next steps? I'm going to look at the short term and long term. I'd say in the short term, I just want to finish uni and make sure I graduate on time. Um, but in terms of currently, we're all um discussing lots of roles internally and externally because our internship program is for 12 months and now we have to look for grad roles. So, um, we're looking into how what our next two years or three years are going to look like after postgraduation and that's why we're um, all interns are currently working on intern um, in the intern program. But you know Dan um personally for me what's next and I ask myself this every day and I had this conversation with Jennet is I want to do a role or a job where yeah it ticks up all the job requirements but I want to feel satisfied that I left a bit of an impact to my team members or my team or just in general for myself. And right now what's next is I'm trying to explore and find what my personality matches best with an activity or a role at Microsoft or external generally and I'm cruising my way through and seeing what matches with me so I can leave that impact and also be able to help my team and in this tech field in general because I'm super passionate about it and being in the edges space I've my eyes have opened up so much I feel like there's so much to do just less amount of time and I just want to I just want to grab onto something and get out there so that's what's next for me that's what's next that is amazing that's great and Janet yourself yeah no for sure um so I currently obviously applying. So, ASPAR roles are hopefully so graduate roles are hopefully sooning um opening up soon and um that's probably something that we're all looking forward towards. But I think aside from that, I really want to, you know, graduate from uni and uh still continue on a lot of my impact work and uh being a representation towards the community that I came from and inspire young students and young girls that you know, you can get to where you are today. Obviously, it's going to be a little difficult, but just keep on inspiring them. I don't know how much of inspiration I can be. Um, but being able to just be a representation because I wish I wish when I was in high school, I was in year nine. Um, I had a represent I had someone that looked like myself come into my high school and tell me that, you know, you can do it. You can do this. You just need to put your head through it. And I wish I was able to be that. I I was able to get that guidance. And right now, I think, Dan, like one of the most inspiring things for me is that um my little brother when I got into my degree was that he was like I want to be a software engineer just like you. And I think that made me so emotional because I still this day I think about it is that you know I was able to inspire him in some way and if I can inspire other students facing very similar problems that I did when I was in high school um it could probably change their perception and get them headstrong and go into engineering and um that is something that I would love to continue doing and being a representation towards my community and work towards making it a more inclusive and diverse space and seeing more hijabi representation in industry. So well that's that's fantastic you know that like I don't know both of you like really passionate about about that area and I think you know it's it's a testament to you know you discussion here as well the the the impact you've had on us all in Microsoft and and beyond and our customers and partners and and people you meet you know your friends your family you know you you're absolutely inspirational you both are and it's been great to have your insight into your stories because you're absolutely right. I think when people look into any job, it doesn't matter if it's in tech or whatever. You know, it's hard for for people of your age um to think about a what jobs you might want to go through or careers, you know, you've gone through, you know, various different degree types and styles and and and you've had to negotiate COVID as well and do interning on top of it. You know, you've done a phenomenal job and it's been inspirational speaking to you today and and really appreciate you joining the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Dan. It was amazing to be able to be a part of this. So, you know, Dan, one last point I actually wanted to mention was um from what I realized that going back to one of the questions you asked in the beginning is, you know, majority of Sydney where we in New South Wales and Sydney, a lot of the population comes from Western Sydney. And when I talk to a lot of these younger kids or older kids, why haven't you applied? And there's a lot of scrutiny and discrimination that's coming from our socio economic areas and a lot of cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds. And I kid you not, Dan, if you look in the work they do, the demos they created, the innovation that they've done in schools and post school as well, it's amazing and it's bizarre. And if they just have that little push from people and organizations like yourself and I and bring them in, this industry is just going to rapidly grow in a short amount of time. And I just wish if if one of the people do listen to this, they get that push because we do need people from from those areas and come into organization like ours and expand totally and and and you know just to expand on that again as well you know I think there's a also an element in Australia generally where you got rural communities that feel as if they disenfranchised because they feel as if they got to go to the city and that's the same globally as well you know people go well I've got to go to Sydney or I've got to go to Brisbane or I've got to go to Adelaide or Melbourne to get the jobs because I got to be near the city whereas you know you can do a lot of the road now especially through hybrid has proved that you can do the the roles no matter where you are right and and and to take your point as well it's so important that we get that that recognition of people from the various backgrounds various areas regionally um you know I know Megan Towns on our team is always west is best west is best in Sydney she's always she's always yelling that and I'm up in the northwest in Sydney here as well and and I think um there you're right there are polarizing areas in whatever city you're living in, aren't they? And and people assume that people are from different backgrounds or from different areas and and they may have different abilities or they may get access to less resources. You know, I've seen some amazing work in like um CF West innovation college in um in Paramata Dascese where they've completely changed the the timets around Tiff qualifications, industry qualifications, creativity like it's phenomenal the stuff that's going on and you know we need people like yourselves you know I don't mean we as in Microsoft or technology I mean society needs people like you both to be able to advocate for everybody and us all and and you know you you know making sure that people like myself and everybody else uh that you come in contact with is aware and as empowered to drive that message as well right exactly and we need the retention we 100% do and I think going back to One quick story. I know we're going slightly over time, but you know, when when people do come into tech, we need to make sure that they're contributing as much as they can by making sure they're retained here with the experiences and the team makes a huge effort. Dan, you're an amazing amazing colleague. And it's because the drive that you give me, I I enjoy what I do in the edges space. Like a few weeks back at MCAPS, there were around 2,000 people in the hall that we were at, right? And me and my sister were the only hijabis there. And looking around, left, right, center, we just felt so out of place. We had double thoughts for the next two weeks and is this Microsoft a place for us. Should we stay here for grad should we stick on? But you know we love technology but we love our teams even more and we have realized the amount of growth we've had in this tech um teams and you know what Dan I'm happy to say I would love to stay on in any tech company because the people and our teams make me anchored and I love it here no matter what differences are. That's so good. That's amazing to hear. Brilliant. Thanks Janet. Thanks Iman. Thank you for your time. today and your insights are fantastic and your impact is amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.