It’s easy to roll along in life and get by.  Being productive and living a life that has meaning for you often means stepping outside our comfort zone and challenging ourselves to become the person we want to be.  Often gaining the clarity to see what’s next can be hard when you are “sitting” in your life.

In this episode I chat with Clarity Coach, Jennifer Einolf.  Jennifer is a Newfield Network trained Ontological coach (listen in to find out EXACTLY what that is) who loves working with clients through her Prospects of Possibility transformation keys to help clients realise their boldest future.

To find out more about Jennifer visit, www.boldwhisper.com

To find out more about Ontological visit www.ontologicalcoaching.com.au

Donna Hanson: Hi I’m Donna Hanson in this expert insights episode we speak with Jennifer Einolf. Jennifer is a clarity coach who works with clients to navigate through her prospects of possibility transformation keys to realize their boldest possible future. She’s a new field network trained. Now I’m hoping I pronounce this correctly ontological coach. I want to find out exactly what that means. But I love her philosophy of the world is busy telling you what’s wrong and trying to sell you this solution to your deficit.

And she believes I don’t think you’re deficient. You’re amazing. I’m offering to partner with you gifting the world with a fire hose of your wonderfulness me just so love that. Hi, Jennifer welcome.

Jennifer Einolf: Hi, thank you. It’s so nice to be here.

Donna Hanson: And before we start have got to get this question out of the way. What is an Ontological Coaching? Did I say it right?

Jennifer Einolf: You said it absolutely correctly. So it’s a big word. But what an ontological coach does is we look at being and doing

And so we have all had this experience that we take an action and we get a result we don’t like. And so we take another action and we get the same bad result. But it was a different action. So what’s going on?

So Ontological Coaching is about understanding that it’s the way we see the world that impacts what we even think is possible and that impacts what actions we take and that impacts the results we get so I work with my clients to go further upstream to habits of language and the way we relate to our emotions and even our habits in our body and how that impacts how we see the world and we work towards that aha moment when all of a sudden that thing that’s been hiding in plain sight. This whole time. It’s suddenly there. And then we figure out how you’re going to take advantage of that. Now you have new possibilities and that’s basically what Ontological Coaching is a big word for the fact that in our life we’re going through this tumble of being and doing all the time.

Donna Hanson: It sounds a bit like what I like to call the BFO the blinding flash of the obvious and to use the old analogy. You know, sometimes you just can’t see the forest for the trees. And I know with my clients I talk a lot about sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes to look at something and say something that’s right in front of you, the potential that something has an end in a lot of instances. And I’m sure we’ll get into this, people probably already done a lot of the hard work. It’s just the little pieces that they need tweaking to really lift everything

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely, absolutely. This observation that we have of the world. I mean, it comes from everything we are and everything we’ve learned and maybe we learned lessons that maybe the conclusion we drew doesn’t serve us in this moment. And so how do we take that and rearrange it a little bit, but yeah, you’re not having to remake yourself like, like you said in the piece that you quoted from my website. I already think you’re amazing. So let’s go unleash that

Jennifer Einolf: Let’s go make that available.

Donna Hanson: Jenni, thanks.

Jennifer Einolf: You are amazing.

Donna Hanson: It is just the word on to colour until, until like that’s going to be fun. All through I interview. Did that come from the new field network or is that a lot. Could I go to the dictionary and actually find that word?

Jennifer Einolf: It’s actually available in the dictionary. No, it’s, the name that they chose for a deeply philosophical approach that they chose to use a new field. The idea is that we need a new field of learning that what got us here won’t get us there, and that the world is in love. It has a love affair with answers but what really moves us as powerful questions.

Donna Hanson: Yeah

Jennifer Einolf: This new field this new way of looking at it. Sorry, go ahead.

Donna Hanson: No one’s going to say, and if we don’t ask the right questions. We never going to get the right answer. But you know, I’m looking for answers. I guess is human nature, but reverse engineering and thinking about, well, what’s the question I’m actually trying to answer. I mean you know that that’s just too easy to be right, isn’t Jennifer?

Jennifer Einolf: It’s not so I have a background in interior design and I’m in love with the design cycle that’s a big part of what I do. And the first stage of the design cycle. Well, the first stage is that something shows up and it provokes change or either answering a challenge or your rising to an opportunity, but then you have to, you have to perceive, where am I? What is this question? What’s in my way? And what is there for me to use? And it’s amazing how often we want to jump straight to brainstorming or straight to implementation and we’re not even sure what we’re solving for whether that’s a group trying to solve a problem or even an individual trying to have something be different in their life. There are questions that will never be answered in our lifetimes. And that doesn’t mean they’re not valuable questions and there are questions that if you rush to answer them you are cutting off all the possibilities.
So it’s a skill to hold a question to hold it open for a long time because like I said, we are trained that we are responsible for having answers like that. We’re trained in school. We’re trained by our bosses were trained by the world we value people who have the ready answer. But philosophers know that the real value comes from holding a question exactly the right amount of time. Before you demand an answer.

Donna Hanson: I love that. And it’s some reminds me of something. My husband says, which we talked about how technology in particular has changed how we accept and what we accept as speed, speed to solution, speed to market and he jokes that, you know, now we’re so impatient two minutes noodles take too long.

Jennifer Einolf: That is definitely true. I have a 19 year old and he does not have two minutes. Two minutes. Absolutely.

Donna Hanson: And I think the other thing. Too is we are so pressurize and condition to fast, fast, fast as good but sometimes that can be to the detriment of creativity and considering all opportunities.

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. And, you know, circling back to that flash of the patently obvious. That’s where the mistakes happen it’s that we think we know or that we think we’re supposed to know these are enemies of learning. If you think you’re already supposed to know or if you think that you already do know where’s the space to put any new learning. There’s absolutely none. So yeah, sometimes it takes time to go fast that
if you’re really going to do the thing that’s going to move you forward you invest the time here so that it looks like incredible lightning speed once everybody notices what’s happening.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely there. Yeah. Yeah overnight sensation. That 20 years. So you mentioned a design background, Jennifer, can you give me sort of them, you know, the fast track journey. The journey of how you came to be where you are today because you mentioned design, interior design and now you’re an ontological coach how did that progression happen because I’m not necessarily saying a straight line between one to the other.

Jennifer Einolf: And it seems like apples and oranges, doesn’t it. Well, honestly, what happened, I was a commercial interior designer I worked onchospitals and universities and large corporate projects and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. But I realized there were two components to the work that I did one that I absolutely adored and one that I wasn’t too fond of so I got really curious about, well, what other career has the part I like and maybe not the part that I don’t. And the part that I loved was a client would come with a problem and the solution in their hands and say I have this problem and I need you to solve it this way and we would listen, we would listen deeply and we would believe everything they told us and then we would get super curious about what else is true, what else is possible.
That’s coaching, it’s, this idea that you’re honouring the story you’re honouring that the person came from somewhere and understands the problem in this in this way, but that by asking questions and looking at it from a variety of perspectives we can discover what else is true. So I tell people that I went from exterior interior design to interior Interior design. The same principles of honouring your story, but not buying it entirely and getting super curious. It’s the same the same process and it’s deeply, deeply satisfying to be doing it the way I’m doing it right now.

Donna Hanson: And I think the added value that you bring just based on your story is the fact that it’s not a logical necessarily perspective, it’s coming from creative insights. So there’s a balance of logic with creativity. And often that’s something that’s lacking in traditional coaching. There’s maybe. Here’s the process. This is the process that we follow and it’s your fault. If you don’t get the outcome you want, but it sounds like it’s more holistic and taking into account so many other influences and factors, rather than just being cut and dried

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. It’s a partnership. Partnerships exists because the two people in the partnership can get more done in that relationship than they could ever get done alone. And so it’s not all on you are all on me. I’m not there to tell you what to do. How could I possibly know what the solution is for your life?

But I’m also not there to somehow just witness you coming up with your own solution. It’s this partnership and it is holistic and it comes from this place of bringing everything that you are inherently innately from birth, whatever that is, and marrying it to everything you’ve learned and then bringing my presence and my curiosity.
And figuring out what else is true, what else is possible and it is it’s bigger than just any prescriptive program. I’ve had clients tell me that
they hired me because they had lot of people telling them that they could get them where they wanted to go and here are the steps and here’s what I did, there’s value in that there’s value in learning from what other people have learned in their path to their destination.

But that’s not coaching necessarily that’s prescriptive and that that can be very damaging to someone who’s busy figuring out their contribution that the one that only they can make and how they’re going to do it. And that’s why it’s important that this includes the whole person.

Donna Hanson: And I think, too, when we think about where we want to go. We often think of it from a linear perspective, we don’t necessarily think about the ebbs and flows because we don’t want to think about the right, we just something passionate. We want to get from here to here and we want to get there in two minutes or less.

Jennifer Einolf: That’s right. And that’s why the design cycle. It’s really more of a spiral. It’s this idea that something shows up and we’re going to respond to it. We’re going to perceive where we are, what the real question how are we understanding the world? How we understand our possibilities? And then we’re going to prepare.

What, how do we prepare for success? How do we run little beta tests to before we do a full implementation? How do we get ourselves lined up and then we do implementation and then there’s the step that everyone forgets. This is the design cycle.

Did it work. What did we learn because that informs the next trip around the cycle and so improvement is really a spiral? I learned that when I had a little kid in the house. And he sleeping through the night. This is great. And then he would circle back around and all of a sudden he’s not sleeping through the night again well it’s different this time but it is a revisiting the same set of issues and he’s just getting better every look. It’s the same thing with us. We are on a spiral of growth, which means we’re going to go higher and we’re going to grow, in depth of wisdom and in skills and all of the experience but it’s not this linear from here to there and often it involves a plateau, you get you get to spend a little more time on one rung of that spiral.

Because that’s where the mastery happens, all of those things. And sometimes it’s an accelerated zoom up three or four levels and that’s awesome too. But that’s an important point that we do have this impatient linear view of how improvement looks and it’s really not in alignment with how improvement actually works.

Donna Hanson: And I think to one of the important things that people forget. Well, there’s two things. The first thing is the journey along the way. You know the person that we become as a result of all these awareness is in insights, because it really helps us you know in a process perspective, it helps us move forward with whatever it is we’re trying to achieve.

But also it creates personal growth because you can’t be the same person at the same as you were at the other end, but you need to know the person you want to be when you get here and you also need to review, when you get there. So you talked about how You know, often, people don’t look back at what worked and what you didn’t know they’re too busy going next, next tick the box. Move on to the next thing, are they?

Jennifer Einolf: Yeah, and it’s also. Conversely, it’s the source of feeling like you’re not enough. Because the dirty little secret is when you start something new that you’ve never done before. And guess what, you’re not enough. You’re absolutely right. And that doesn’t matter, that’s not the point, the point is that you have an ability to learn, you have the skills that you’ve gained to that point, and you have community of people around you to help you resilient. Those are the reasons you’re enough, not because you’re suddenly an expert at this thing. You’re setting out to do. It isn’t until you go up a couple of runs that you’re suddenly enough for what you set out to do. And guess what, now you’re not enough for the next thing. Yay! You get to grow. It’s really interesting. And we and so often I hear people who letting stopping themselves letting that stop them when they say, Oh, I’m not enough. Well, of course, you’re not enough.

Where you were you enough to do your senior paper when you were a freshman, where you enough to do the job you had at the end of your 10 year career when you were sprayed it. It’s such an interesting conundrum that people place themselves in and it’s the converse of what you’re talking about, that the growth is the use. The journey is the point you’re spending a lot of time on the journey and a moment celebrating the achievement.

Shouldn’t you be appreciating the journey since that’s where you’re spending most of your life it. Yeah, I think that’s true and it doesn’t mean that it’s always easier that every part of it is excruciatingly pleasant because it’s not

Jennifer Einolf: But in balance. That’s where the uses. It’s in the journey.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. Now I know when we spoke off air and you said something to me that really peaked my interest about having this conversation. And that was the concept of making bigger promises to scary a People. It got me curious, what does that mean? so let’s talk about that concept making bigger promises to scarier people?

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. So about 10 years ago I found a quote by Eleanor Roosevelt and I will fully misinterpreted the quote I have no idea what the original point was, but what I heard was
Jennifer Einolf: If something scares you. It’s a signal and as long as it’s not going to instantly kill you or land you in jail bad evening.

You pretty much have to do it. And so fear went from a thing that stopped me to a permission to go do the things. Now obviously use some discernment about which kinds of fear, but it was it was a propellant

and then a couple of years ago, I kind of got to the next level of this concept. And that was I have to make bigger promises to scarier people. That’s how I’m going to get bigger. That’s how I’m going to go learn how to be enough. And so I started to do that. I started to apply that sense of I have to do this to some of the people that intimidate me or people who be nothing showed up and it will. What are they going to do? Why are they going to want to talk to me and I make this promise. How am I going to fulfil it? So making offers that lead to promises to scare your people and just like the enough conversation that we just have it’s really interesting who scares me now. Because a lot of the people who scared me three years ago, some of them are friends.

Some of them are clients, some of them. I’ve had great conversations with. So it’s, also is a spiral of reaching for the people that at some point have my attention.

Have my stomach fluttering a little bit, the thought of being in the room with them or talking to them, and especially the thought of in some way, making a promise to them that I’m going to be of service in some way.

It’s, been an amazing ride. It’s been an absolutely amazing ride and it’s led me. I keep an aspirational contact list. I keep a list of people that
I mentioned to my friends. Occasionally, or I put out there like, does anybody know anybody who knows so and so and having that list, it’s, a way of being able to instantly visualize who my scarier. People are
but honestly, some of them. I don’t know who they are. Yet I just know that when I’m in the room with them. I’m going to have that flutter in my stomach and thanks to Eleanor, I’m going to have to talk to them. It’s just the way it is.

Donna Hanson: So from a business perspective, you know that people that might be listening or watching or whatever. And that could be you know that client they have aspired to work with or a joint venture partner. They’re just going on a that I did she beat. I don’t think they’d want to consider something with me. What’s the worst that can happen right?

Jennifer Einolf: Right. And I’ve had experiences where I thought someone wouldn’t want to little me my business at this level, whatever it was and
in one particular case, I was thinking of this person had worked with some this is a client that I work with communication with clarity with their audiences and this is someone who’s regularly on stages in front of tens of thousands of people scary.

And he, I wasn’t thinking that I would even make an offer, because I knew he was working with a really big name. Person in New York, and he came and talked to me and he said, I appreciate the way you are. I love the way you instruct and I want somebody local and I want somebody that I can actually talk to you. I don’t want to be in a room with the scarier person was basically what he was saying, and we were able to forge a relationship, a really great working relationship that’s been going on for three years now.

Jennifer Einolf: Because he didn’t want to go and be impressive. He wanted a relationship with his coach. He wanted to feel comfortable. And so the size I was at the time was exactly what he was looking for. Who knew?

Who knew so they see something in you that you don’t necessarily even understand you’re putting out there and it’s not the metric you think they’re using to evaluate you.

Donna Hanson: And that that’s really important and really interesting because you know, it’s a perception. What we see in others, isn’t it, but often the story that they’re telling themselves internally can be very different and they’re not always congruent and they don’t need to be congruent, I guess, But ideally you want them to be authentic.

Jennifer Einolf: Oh yeah, authenticity, so important and living in integrity have had several experiences recently where I’ve gone to take advantage of somebody offer will not take advantage offer kind of not use that phrase don’t like that. Except somebody offer and when I’ve gotten into the experience. It wasn’t what I was promised or my radar is pinging that maybe this person isn’t living completely in integrity and I’m I’ve realized I that’s not where I want to be. I want to be with people. We talked about authenticity and some people will get like a weapon, but
honestly, you won’t even have to have the same values as me. But if you’re living to your values. That’s a place I want to be, you know, unless our values are so skewed that we just can’t come to Concord, I am
really excited when people are living their truth because if they make a mistake. It’s genuinely a mistake.

It doesn’t come from some place of trying to take advantage and it’s become it’s always been important for me to live that way, but understanding that that’s actually something that I detect when I’m spending time with other people. And that’s important. There’s a lot of ways to be on the planet. And we have to decide which ones we want to support and the people must spend time with professionally, personally.

However, that plays out authenticity and integrity are critically important.

Donna Hanson: I always remember something I heard Seth Godin say once and that was I’m not for everybody. And that’s okay. So recognizing that not everybody is going to like you. Can you do business, your products or services etc. But it’s about finding enough people that do like what you do and that your values and how you do business resonates with them and focusing on them.

Jennifer Einolf: We live in 21st century, which means that on some level we have access to 7 billion other human beings. Is it seven billion seven and a half. I don’t even know. More than I could count in a lifetime.

Which I only need how many people to be effectively contributing to be of service and the exponential value of the person that I help goes to help other people. If I unlock somebody You know, somebody special thing if our coaching relationship ignites them to go do that thing I can have that impact. Exponentially but it’s still only a matter of I don’t have to convince everybody and I’m it’s not even that they won’t like me. There are plenty of people who I love what they’re doing.

I love the way they are, but their offer isn’t something I need or there’s somebody else who’s, way of being. I prefer and I can wish them well I can even support them. It doesn’t even have to be antagonistic. It’s just we don’t all need to work with everybody that’s the best news possible the best as possible.

Donna Hanson: So I want to circle around circle back around to something that you said earlier about clarity. So I wonder why it that human beings often find itself is. Hard to say that clarity, we sort of skirted around that a bit before, what, what’s your take on that.

Jennifer Einolf: It’s really interesting. I think it might boil down to one simple neurological truth, and that is that your brain has one job.
Your brains job is to prove to you that you prove to the world that you are saying and that you are right, and that’s why all of this positive thinking and all of these things come back to this sense that your brain, whatever you tell your brain does important it believes you. And so if you tell your brain that this current way things are, is the only way it can be how is your brain going to get around that? So it’s really hard for us to get past our brains attempts to protect us and to help us. I also think that we have needs, you know, once you’re breathing and you have food and water and shelter. I think our deepest I personally believe our deepest need is significance and we all measure it differently, you know, for a parent. It’s that loving look from the child when they’ve done that, like, amazing judo parenting thing. They just did, or with the CEO, it might be when she’s standing at the stock exchange ringing the bell significance, we define what significance is, but I think we have in common that we need it. And when we

When we take a risk and to be clear when you’re looking clarity means you’re seeing a vision of what isn’t. And you’re yearning in that direction. And in order to take that step, you have to risk your significance. You have to be the only person who can see this thing.

And go and talk about it to people who think you’re not really on the right track. Even people who love you. So there’s a risk and having clarity, you know, when it shows up. Clarity doesn’t exist, just for itself. It’s a catalyst for action. Often, you don’t even know you got clarity until you look around and realize you’ve been in motion for a little while. That’s when you know you got clarity. It’s very rare that you say, oh, now I’m completely clear. Now I’m going to go act. It’s a process and its jet fuel.

So it can it can propel you in a very nerve wracking and dangerous direction so you know so much of what we Get angry with our brains for is really just our brain protecting us and I think one of the best ways to handle that is to thank our brain and say, you know, thank you, thank you me for protecting me. But I am going to choose to make the take this risk. I am going to choose to pursue this this avenue of thought that’s going to lead to seeing something we currently can’t see.

I think we have to honour it, we can’t make it the enemy so many of us are at war with our own safety systems and that’s kind of productive, but
That’s, why we have a hard time with clarity and we have a hard time seeing our stuff we need somebody else who can say well you know from where I’m sitting we need two teams. We need a coach, and we need valued friends who are willing to stand there and say, I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I love you and I know you can do this we need we need those people to allow us to move into that space where it’s clear, but it’s a little bit dangerous.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. So, that sounds like some of the things that you recognize hold people back from what they want to achieve in their business and life. What other sorts of things do you see in your experiences with coaching people? That are just like the little tweaks that that maybe they didn’t see in themselves that can just unlock their potential.

Jennifer Einolf: Yeah, absolutely. Clarity is only clarity, like I said, if it’s sparking action. You know, so you can sit and think and think and think, and I have a pig advocate for deep thoughts and spending time thinking if you don’t kick it into gear doesn’t go anywhere. It’s, really

It’s that significance piece. It’s being willing to risk taking an action and making a mistake, taking an action and being exposed like sticking your I always picture like we have prairie dogs here in the United States. So they sit in these huge Warren. Areas where there’s little holes everywhere. And if you stick your head out of one of them, you’re in danger, and I will swoops down takes you whatever. You have to have the courage to stick your head up and look around. It takes courage, because you are on some level, placing yourself in danger, so comfortable with discomfort are calculated risks, knowing that there’s ways to mitigate the very serious risks but you have to take action. You have to, take action. So it’s this, perceive and then do. That’s why the fourth part of the design cycle is implementation, it’s pursue, you have to go and actually do it because that’s where the real learning happens for the next time around. That’s where the thing gets built

All that it’s all the stuff that happens to prepare is so important, but it’s only important because you’re going to take an action if you’re preparing and you skip the action and you go through another cycle of preparing you haven’t actually done it. So yeah, the kicking it into gear and being ready to be uncomfortable, you know, finding ways to be comfortable with that.

Donna Hanson: So you mentioned the four phases or the four cycles.

Jennifer Einolf: four phases of the cycle. So I reinterpreted the design cycle and in terms of clarity design and the forces phases are provoke something shows up that is either a challenge or an opportunity, you might provoke it external forces might provoke it but now there’s a need for change. So the first thing you do is you perceive. What is my relationship? To what’s possible what Howard. My, how is my language supporting my ability to change how is my body supporting my ability to change how is my relationship with my emotions. And what am I, resources, and what are the obstacles, really. And honestly, what am I, solving for. That’s when you decide what the real experiment is then you go from perceived to prepare and that’s where you prep the path for success you build the team, you do the beta test.

You do the research, you do the brainstorming is actually a part of the prepare, prepare phase because that’s where you start to mediate and decide what the possibilities would look like for implementation and then you go into pursue, you start to implement and at the end of pursue there is that provoke because now you’re moving back through the cycle again and you’re saying, Okay, well, what was provoked by what we learned going through this whole cycle.

And it’s a Lather, rinse, repeat, how it’s? How humans learn? And if we take a deliberate stance and pay attention to that. Then we can make sure that we’re hitting all of the all of the points that make it really effective to do that.

Donna Hanson: And now I’m imagining for some of your clients that might be you help them in to implement that process and then they can read some repay like other things, or they might be clients who just want to have you as a resource run their ideas and get some clarity.

Jennifer Einolf: Absolutely. I mean, I have people who engage me for one part of that cycle. They want an accountability partner, they’re ready to pursue and they want somebody who’s helping them fine tune is they’re doing it. They’re people that there’s the sense that something’s calling them out of the mist and they’re just in the in
The transition between provoke and prepare. They’re just figuring this out and they want somebody to help them lead it that found that that groundwork. So absolutely. It’s, I don’t always talk about the design cycle but it shows up in the work. It definitely shows up in the work and
it’s, you know, one hour at a time. What’s on your mind right now that effects this larger arc of what you’re trying to learn or solve for and plugging that into where are you in this on this path, it’s
yeah, any or all of the pieces because I said it’s life it’s this constant cycle that we’re in, whether we recognize it and take ownership of the pieces or not.

Donna Hanson: So look, we need to wrap up, but you know, I’m pretty confident, we could probably talk for another couple of hours. And I know you have clients, you mentioned around the world. But I also know here in Australia. You do have a number of clients.

Donna Hanson: So for anybody who’s enjoyed the conversation and maybe wants to you know, have a bit of a look at what you can do and maybe consider reaching out and having a conversation to see if you’re a fit. And you know what type of resources or programs you have

Jennifer Einolf: Sure, absolutely. Well, the first thing that I would suggest you do is visit my website at boldwhisper.com And you can use the contact form. I would love to have a conversation with anybody who’s interested in just pursuing the possibility, what might be of use to you right now for moving, moving the needle on where you are in the design cycle. And also, at the same time on that website. If you want to sign up. I put out an article every week there’s 60 some articles on the website. Please sign up. Let’s continue the conversation. And I’d love to be sending you those little insights and hearing back from you about what you think. It’s definitely an ongoing conversation. And just so you know when it’s your time and you’re in your day. I’m in yesterday. So if you want to do over. You can call me in yesterday.

Because I’m on the other side of the planet. And you can call me in yesterday and we can do a do over and you can let me know what my tomorrow is going to look like.

Donna Hanson: Hilarious Jennifer thanks so very much for your time today and for your insights, particularly on making bigger promises to scary people. I love that concept and challenging ourselves.

Donna Hanson: Up for those watching or listening. Thank you so much for joining us on this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week!

Trust in relationships is vital. 

Not having trust makes relationships, of any type, at best challenging, at worst impossible! With the change our world experienced in 2020 as a result of COVID-19 the need for trust in business and life relationships has skyrocketed.  When our relationships lack trust, our productivity reduces in all areas of life as we evaluate what is happening around us and take time to consider the impact of choices and decisions.

In this episode I chat with Behavioural Scientist, speaker, educator and author David Penglase about how we build trust in these turmolic times.

Donna Hanson: In this Expert Insights episode we speak with David Penglase.
David a behavioural scientist with degrees in wait for it, Human Resources Development and Business and MBA, a Masters in Professional Ethics, a Masters of Science in Applied Positive Psychology. He’s also the author of five books, including The Art and Science of Building Customer Trust and Intentionomics.

He’s an avid fisherman a king guitarist, but more importantly a really well-respected professional speaker and educator, welcome David, thanks for coming on the show today.

David Penglase: So lovely to be speaking with you Donna.

Donna Hanson: Now before we start I’d like to know, how did you end up honing down your interest in business to the importance of trust? I’m guessing as a kid you probably didn’t wake up one morning thinking, gee, I’m passionate about trust?

David Penglase: You’re absolutely right. As a kid, it was the last thing on my mind and I probably shouldn’t go into how I was as a kid in terms of my trustworthiness, I’m not sure! Yeah, it is an interesting sort of way where I’ve landed on. It was a series of specific academic ventures really. What happened was when I was doing my first degree which, as you just mentioned as a degree in business, but it was majoring in the psychology of adult learning human resource development. One of the principles of adult learning was the importance of the learner trusting the content, trusting the educator, but also trusting the outcome.

So one of the things that I really started to study while I was studying that degree was this connection between the learner and the teacher and that whole trust thing from there.

And then when I went into do my MBA where I focused on leadership and trust so that led me to that you see. So, so all of a sudden academically and that was back in my 20s. So then in my 30s when I did my MBA are around leadership and trust.

I got really quite upset during my MBA, because in the entire MBA course Donna you are ready for this. There was not one topic on ethics. And now, again, this is this was back in my 30s, which is some 30 years.

Donna Hanson: Last week

David Penglase: Yeah, I know thank you but that really disturbed me. So when I was looking at trust in leadership. Leadership trust worthiness actually at the end of the MBA. I went and sourced another degree because I was still there was something that was still missing. And so I did this edgy. Again, as you mentioned, I did a master’s degree in professional ethics and this is where it all started to come together for me.

As I was studying the philosophy side of ethics Aristotle was one of the key ones that we were you know we were researching and these words I just become a father for the second time. And these words written by Aristotle jumped off a page to me. And what he said was that actions and behaviours are our morals shown in conduct.

That everything we say in everything we do. Scenes loud and clear messages to the world about who we are and what we represent and this, this became a real applied thing for me, our morals shown in conduct our ethics shown in conduct our values, shown in conduct and it was while I was studying that that master’s degree I fell across this book written by a lady by the name of

Elizabeth Anscombe and the book was called or titled intention. Yeah, this is where it becomes really interesting well before. So this is she wrote this book in the 50s and this is before. Well, probably before Simon Sinek was even born.

Here’s what she said. whenever we think about intention. We not just to think about what we intend to do or how we intend to do it, but we must give consideration to why we’re doing it. Sound familiar

Donna Hanson: Oh yeah, very familiar. I wonder if that was on Simon Sinek reading list.

David Penglase: don’t know but it just goes to show how solid and the way that he encapsulated that was just genius. But as I’m researching that what I saw, I finished that degree. And then I started this a master’s degree in applied positive psychology. Now I know it sounds like I’m always at university. It’s a lifelong learner. But there was still something missing for me because when I looked at what and the how and the why. It seemed to me there was a missing link with this.

And as I was studying the applied positive psychology degree. What I really focused in on was this what I call the fourth element of intention. And so this is where it all came together, Donna. That the core of everything there was still something missing. So when we look at intention. It’s not just what we do or how we do it.

It’s more than just knowing why we do it. And this fourth element which is and we might touch on this as we chat this fourth element that I started to really research was the impact

That our intentions have on others, not just on us. So when you add those four together. What we do? Then how we do it? Why we do it? But then you really focusing on but what impact is this going to have on all stakeholders? Now what you’ve got is a really dynamic way of looking at intentional trust. And so that’s how the whole thing came together.

Donna Hanson: It’s far more holistic, isn’t it? And rounded, whereas the, the other three elements are a little bit more logical, but with anything related to trust an intention, there’s an element of emotion attached to it.

David Penglase: Oh, yeah, yeah. But the other thing to Donna and this is this is where the science becomes really important that I can have a why I can have a really big why but my big why my actually be about me.

Donna Hanson: Huh.

David Penglase: And if my big Why is driven by what I can get for me and not what I can do for others, then other people pick up on that truth.

And so when we start to look at intentionality. And when we think about some of the stuff that’s happened you know pre covered with the Royal Commission, for example, into the finance industry banking in superannuation, all that kind of stuff that

People were clear on what their intention was with their intention had nothing to do about the impact it was going to have on customers. Share it was all it was all about them. And about nothing court.

Donna Hanson: Yeah inwards facing as opposed to outwards. You got it, yeah.

Awesome, that’s great. Thank you! And yeah, I can see how the curiosity factor would have grown because I certainly am a lifelong learner as well. In some in the technology space because the never stops.

David Penglase: No, I get it.

Donna Hanson: Now it’s strange times at the moment with them a global pandemic that depending on when people are watching this, we might be sort of easing our way out of it, but it’s going to be a long time coming what have you observed during this time from a trust perspective about how leaders and how people in a dealing with this globally, you know,

David Penglase: One of the biggest things that’s happened because of this is there has been an almost imposed trust that’s because so many people were forced to work remotely. The trust that leaders have had for many years, or the lack of trust that leaders have had for many years in letting their people work remotely.

Donna, you got to come into the office. I don’t trust you. You’ve got clock in at nine and leave at five or as it’s over the years, it became eight and six. And you know, that’s another story for another day. But, but this what I refer to as imposed trust is a really interesting thing to realize it’s changed the way the world will be forever. In terms of the way we work and what we know from the research and this is some research has just happened recently.

That what we know now is when a leader has struggled with working remotely, they will struggle to trust their people to work remotely, but we’re a leader has found the remote working quite successful for them that they’ve been comfortable and confident with it.

They are more likely to trust their remote workers because of that experience. So that’s one of the key shifts that has happened and will change the way we work because all of a sudden, you know, just before we started Donna that we were chatting about my son who’s over in Sweden. Now he has been working remotely.

Before convert it. But now he’s working remotely almost full time. Where was, only part time before. So this is something that we’re going to be watching this idea of an imposed trust has actually created a way for us to move forward and be able to work differently. So that’s one of the first things. The second thing that I’ve been watching around trust, especially is this whole fake news thing. Who, what can we trust? Who can we trust? And so many people now are getting there. If you like their news feed through social media.

But interestingly, what we know is most people also know most people also know that what they see on social media may be not true. And yet that’s where they’re getting their source of news from. It’s a real. It’s a real paradox so they two are the main things that I’m seeing around the whole trust issue.

Donna Hanson: I think what you say about leaders is quite logical and it comes to the principles of adult learning in that you know how I learn is how I often think other people learn. And so if I’m effective working remotely as leader. I assume you’re going to be just as effective. But that’s not necessarily the case. So that opens up a big can of worms for leaders, doesn’t it?

David Penglase: Yeah. What does it? It’s also a new skill set and this is look as an adult educator, you know, corporate in, especially in the corporate space. This is not easy. I mean, what we’re doing now. Donna isn’t easy. This is a whole new skill set. The way that we meet and the way that we talk. I mean, the fact that I’ve got to look at a camera, rather than look at your eyes on the screen that’s a new skill.

The way that we’re going to be meeting with our, our teams remotely are in the future, not just now there’s a new skills that leaders are going to need to embrace get good at and get good at quick because it’s now. And so there’s, again, this whole idea of can I trust myself as a leader to step up into that space as well. So it’s an interesting times. You’re absolutely right. For leaders.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, and I think a lot of the time to, you know, sometimes leaders may feel that they learning stops when they reach to reach that point and their job is to fade down their expertise but realistically, this is challenging them to continue to learn and like you said, embrace because you either change or you’re forced to change. Or you moved out. Because you’re not getting the results that you needed because the measurement tools you can no longer respond to

David Penglase: Yeah, a bit. Now, one should think that this is easy. You know, because it for a lot of people. It’s a real struggle and I, I’ve got to say that’s where and we might talk about this, you know, as we go forward, but why, one of the most important lessons, I think with all of this in the corporate space, especially, but in any business small business, medium, large, Is it what’s going on here is a path from the horrible deaths and an illness that you know globally. We’re experiencing. Apart from that, what this is. And again, it comes down to. It’s got a lot to do with, you know, this concept of trust intention is that people matter. And I know that that’s it sounds so try because we can read on a lot of corporate their websites, but also in the is it’s that the customers are important and they are people are important. Well, right now we’re really finding out whether that’s true or not.

Donna Hanson: Yet because it’s the road.

David Penglase: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Donna Hanson: Strange question, David. But how do you establish trust, particularly in business. I’m guessing it’s sort of a building blocks type process in much the same way as you build respect with somebody you work with

David Penglase: Yeah okay so let’s explore this and this could take us anywhere. Um,
First of all, and I know you and I both use the word trust in the world right now. Trust is not the issue. Its trustworthiness. Are we worthy of trust and so your question around how do you go about building trust? This is the right question.

Unfortunately, what a lot of organizations are doing because of what they’ve done in the past, is how we re-build trust? Now what that means is that they’ve stuffed up they’d made some kind of mistake either intentionally or unintentionally. We’ll talk about that in a minute. But, um, in, in terms of the building blocks of trust. There are some steps. And we know this. This is it, although it’s quite practical There’s some real science behind all of this. And the first step towards trust is to get clear about your intentions. Now this becomes so important.

When I work with organizations, especially the leaders and but also their teams, I get them to focus on three lenses of trust.

And the first lens of trust is self-trust because you know if you think back through all of the philosophy that I know you studied and that we hear things like, you know, start with start with yourself and then you can move on to other people know thyself all that stuff so self-trust is a lot of things, but we can narrow it down to the confidence that we have in who we are? What we are? And why we are? But it’s also having the control the discipline to manage ourselves and our environment as well. So we need to look through that first lens of self-trust can I trust myself. Because what I know from the research that I’ve done is that if I asked most audiences do they trust themselves nearly everybody puts their hand up and say, Yeah, of course I do, but then when I asked them, has anyone ever let themselves down

Well, it shifts a little bit and then looking around the room to say he’s going to put their hand up and people sort of start to put the hand. Yeah, you know, whether it’s that extra glass of red wine, or in some cases bottle. Or whether it’s the extra chocolate or whatever. We know that we didn’t have that conversation that we needed to have we’ve let ourselves down so the first lens of trust yourself trust. But then there’s another lens and that second lens is the courage that we require and the collaboration mind-set and skill set that we require to trust others. And this is what we’ve already started to talk about Donna, you know, can we trust others to work.

Remotely can I trust others in my team to have my back. Even though we’re not around each other anymore. Can I trust this other person to complete the task on time, because if they don’t, my integrity is at risk or the project is at risk? So it’s this courage, because there’s a risk that the courage and the collaboration to trust others and unfortunately what some people have adopted is almost like you know, if you want to trust somebody just trust him. Well, sure. I kind of agree with that. But blind trust is just dangerous trust you want to hold people accountable for any trust that you give them because it is a pretty important thing to give someone your trust.

And so what you need to do is not just blindly trust them and hope that they make the deadline. You stay in contact and this is the language of trust, you’re not looking over their shoulder. You’re saying, hey, is there anything I can do and you know how things are progressing. Can I help you in any way. These are the kinds of collaborative questions that leaders need to be asking of their teams and team members need to be asking each other. So the third lens of trust, which is really what we’re here to talk about. But all of these are important.

Is the lens of trustworthiness, or our earning others trust and this is three things. It’s a combination of our character, of our competence, but also our consistency in the way that we demonstrate our character and their competence, you see, you can be a person. Um, I don’t mean you Donna but anybody could be a person of you know, good character. And look, that’s another rabbit whole we could go down into what does that actually mean because character is demonstrated. It’s not just something we have it’s demonstrate it. But you could be a person of good character.

But you may not have the competence to do what I need you to do so, therefore, I won’t trust you even know you may be a person of integrity. But you could also have all the competence that are required the resources, the products or services. The, whatever it is. But the way that you do what you do gives me a question about your character or your culture, corporate wise. There are therefore, I won’t trust you. So it’s the consistency of those two things. So just having good character every now and then and just having competence every now and then isn’t enough.

We have to be consistently demonstrating so when we look at the world through those three lenses of trust. Now the sudden we can have much more meaningful conversations But then we start to apply what are the steps towards trust.

And that starts with our intention. And so our intention.

Like I mentioned earlier on, is a clarity. Of what we want for other people, not just what we want from them, or for ourselves. And look, there’s a whole bunch of science around this that so compelling.

And you, you’ll need to guide me, here Donna, because I can talk. As you can tell, I can talk about this, you know, in depth, but there’s something I really do want to share and that is this that when we do look at especially in the way the world is at the moment where there’s a lot of people working remotely. This first step intention being clear about what you want for other people. You see there’s kind of an altruistic element to that Donna. Did you get what I mean?

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. Basically at the moment.

David Penglase: Yeah, so, so if here’s what we know from the science and this is what really excites me. But people that work remotely have to have self-trust.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely.

David Penglase: Okay, so they need to look at themselves through this third lens so I’m talking about self-trust the confidence that we have in who we are.

And the control that we have in what we do but then when you jump to earning others trust, we’re looking at ourselves through that same lens as well, can I trust myself. Can I earn my own trust? Have I got the character? Have I got the competence?

And I’m demonstrating that consistently. So what we know from the sciences. We need people to be trusting themselves when they’re working remotely.

The language around that scientifically is they need to have a sense of self determination and some wonderful research by Becky and Ryan around this.

However, he’s the connection that I want to make, because one of the questions that I’m constantly being asked is how we build self-trust in our employees.

So that when they are working remotely that they feel proud about who they are and that they do have this confidence and control. Well here’s

Why the first step towards trust starts with intention, what we know from the science is this that when people have what I refer to and applied positive intention applied, meaning I don’t just have an intention to do good for other people, but I actually do good for other

Donna Hanson: Deliberately promise.

David Penglase: Delivery. Yeah. So what we know is people that have this and do this so that they genuinely have a customer focus and they live up to that customer focus. What we know is

There is a an association, a strong association in it, building their sense of autonomy which is one of the three core components of self-determination. So, to start trust in any organization, you’ve got to start with self-trust but you’ve got to start with intention. Am I clear about and am I genuine about wanting to make the world a better place.

That’s really and I know that sounds like I’m on a mountain. And, you know, singing hymns and stuff but what I’m really talking about here is this genuine

This genuine approach to our lives personal and professional about when I’m here.

I want to, I want to do good work. I want to do something that makes a difference for my customers for my clients for my colleagues for my leader for whoever it is, because what we know is most of the time, not always, but when we do great work for other people make their lives better.

We get a lot more in return as well. So we start with intention. If I’m clear about what I want for other people, not just what I want from them. Now I can get clear about what I can and what I cannot promise them. And this is one of the biggest mistakes in the trust steps that people have in the corporate world. They make promises they can’t keep and at a micro level. This can be something as simple as, I’ll give you a call, but you don’t, I’ll get back to you next week. But you don’t have that these micro moments of trust these moments of trust, where people over a period of time, they start to get in their mind. I get your truth or I get who you are you say all the right things, but you let me you’re constantly letting me down. So when we’re clear about what we can and what we cannot promise. Now we can sit and manage expectations. So the first step Donna, is intention.

Now once we’re clear on intention, we can take the second step and get clear about what we can and what we can’t promise and once we clear about that. Then we can take the third step. On the actions intentional actions to fulfil those promises. And so this is why these are sequential, but sometimes you got to go backwards and forwards and that’s okay up and he understands but what this the main thing about our actions is that we are transparent in our actions, not only do we need to be doing good things we need to be seen to be doing good things. And when we, do that, then we take that the next step, which are the results that we achieve intentional. Results and if we’re not getting the results achieving the results that we intended. We’ve got to take a step back to look at our actions. And if we’re not doing the things that we needed there. We got to take a step back and look what our promises were what we can and can’t promise.

And if we’re not doing that right. We’ve got to go all the way back to do we really have a strong intention to make life better for our customers, our clients, our suppliers whoever it is, because then the final step, we go intentions to promises to actions to results. The next step is trustworthiness and that’s the whole element of relationships at work and so then you know when people start looking at how do I build trust. That’s the proactive method of building trust, rather than were a number of corporates have found themselves right now. And that is reactively looking at how we regain trust. And let me tell you, regaining trust is much harder than proactively earning building and maintaining trust

Donna Hanson: So Here’s some things that I thought about and observed as you were going through all of that. Um, first of all, there’s a real spotlight. On self-trust at the moment I the current environment isn’t there. So in the past it, and it had maybe been a bit esoteric the right word. Just loosen but now the spotlights on it. You know, if you’re working from home.

The expectation is, you can get away with not doing something for a day or two, but the longer you’re working from home. The more you have to deliver on results. So that requires you to have self-trust so we finding people who you know you and I would have made who said, oh no, look, I could never work from home now finding that they have no choice but to do it and they have to create a structure for themselves to be able to deliver on the on the things that they’ve done. And the other thing that made me think about was the great book by young Coulson was at moments of trophy.
Scandinavian Airlines and how you know the connection to trust and how those moments of truth that he talks about in that book and how they are quite obviously to the building of trust and brand. And then the third thing that I was thinking of is, you know, there’s a lot of organizations where during this time you look at how they’re becoming a little more showing much more empathy to their customers are more proactive and on the front foot so companies like Insurance companies where you would not necessarily expect them to come to the fore and be supportive and forthcoming but offering to whole payments to push things back banks going.

Let’s put a hold on mortgages and things like that. And, you know, I’m not concerned at this point about what happens behind that, because that’s another story. But just being able to demonstrate that empathy has huge brand value in a time like this, doesn’t it?

David Penglase: Yeah it does I mentioned before, my favourite quote from Aristotle yeah actions and behaviours are morals shown in conduct. My language around that Donna is people will get your truth. Over time your intentions, your promises your actions and your results will either promote you as being trustworthy or to expose you as being not and I think what you mentioned there about you know, these decisions that some of these ladies in the corporations are making and just not as my language around that, too. I don’t talk about corporations making decisions because corporation is done.

If the leaders in their people within the organizations and this was one of the biggest findings from the Royal Commission into banking and finance and superannuation was that it highlighted that even though we’re talking about certain big brand organizations? It was people that were making these decisions and so we sort of lovely loop back into that what this horrible pandemic has caused a spotlight and I love your word around that it has it’s caused a spotlight.

And like I mentioned earlier on imposed trust, it’s caused a spotlight on self-trust it absolutely has.

Donna Hanson: Hmm, and um you know that that just popped out at me as you were talking about that, you know, where it could be swept under the carpet or you could get away with something you can’t because you were exposed for all you are. And people have to accept you warts and also to stay because there’s plenty of meetings.

Go around the internet where people are trying to have, you know, serious business meetings and the kids are playing in the background or a cat jumps on somebody’s lap and it, what it does is makes people a bit real. And I think when I think that also contributes to trust because if somebody is of the feeling of, you know, I’m warming, but I’m not quite sure. And then something that makes them look human comes to the fore that can really change someone’s interpretation.

David Penglase: It’s an interesting one. You’re absolutely right. One of the things that we are seeing is that people that are working remotely and doing these kinds of meetings. Sometimes plan sometimes unplanned. Their part of their personal life, which would normally never be shown is shown and it’s kind of like this back of room front of room idea.

Again, it brings back, I think. No, I know. It brings back the reality that this is really all about people. That’s what this world is about, you know, everything else supports or doesn’t. The relationships that we have an alliance and without the relationships that we have in our lives, things just don’t get done. And I think that’s, again, you know, the spotlight is on people and it’s on relationships and it’s on humanity and where that takes us like it’s all, it’s all good at the moment. So let’s not

Donna Hanson: Understand what you mean. It’s all it all seems to be operating in the moment.

David Penglase: Yeah, people are saying the right things. Yeah, many people, not everybody. We’ve seen examples of, you know, people just not being at their best, but there is this lovely focus on humanity at the moment where that goes long term and I’m hopeful.

But I’m also cynical about it that it’s so easy to slip back once there’s some new kind of normal, whatever that means. But that, you know, I just hope that we do keep focused on the importance of looking after our customers looking after our colleagues looking after our minds.

Donna Hanson: Because when you do that, it should all just come should well

David Penglase: Yeah, I think when relationships are going well in our lives. Pretty much everything else is going okay as well. That’s professionally and personally, you know, if you’re working in a toxic relationship, you know, working in a toxic work Environment where relationships are great. It’s not a good place to be now wants to be in that. So, and I think it’s the same with, you know, this whole self-trust you know if you’re struggling with who you are working remotely is going to be not easy. Not easy at all.

Donna Hanson: Know, that’s for sure. So, you know, we’re fast running out of time. And I know you could talk a leg off the chair just too much the same way as I could. I have one final question before we start to wrap up. What do you see happens when trust breaks down and I know we’ve sort of alluded to it in various parts? But what do you see happen.

David Penglase: A friend of mine, Vanessa Hall wrote a book called the truth about trust and she has this lovely saying that trust is fragile and I really like that that we see trust. This is where it all comes back to intention Donna and it is just such a simple idea. But once you really get it that I can make a mistake, an unintentional mistake.

Didn’t mean to do it. And with Lizzie and I, my wife Lee’s you know if I make a mistake. Liz knows that was never intention. I even because of the relationship, we’ve had for you know 40 years. Um, but if I make an intentional mistake.

We and we’ve had examples of those where people they know that they are doing the wrong thing. But they hope that they don’t get caught. Let’s, think of some names Lance Armstrong, the world cyclist.

Mm hmm. You know, he just he knew what he was doing was wrong. It was an intentional action when you look at some of the stuff that came out of the Royal Commission people knew that they were charging dead people for services that, you know, and so these are intentional actions. So when I make a mistake a genuine mistake that was unintentional. Trust might be slightly hurt.

But not irreparably damaged. But if I constantly make that mistake. There’s a question about my integrity.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, and people see a sense if it is an intentional. I believe people get a sense of whether you’re authentic or not in your in your apology in what you say? And how you express yourself? And not like you reading from a key card.

David Penglase: Yeah, apologizing in hindsight Is when you’re apologizing in hindsight, before you get caught that takes courage apologizing in hindsight, after you get caught. You’re doing it because you got caught. Yeah. And so, and I know we’re running out of time. But I want to this. This is the most powerful question that any of us can ever ask about any action that we’re about to take or a decision that we’re about to Mike. It’s called the light of day test, Donna.

And I encourage everybody, me included to listen to the value of this question. The question is this, with this action. I’m about to take or this decision that I’m about to make. Would I make the decision or take the action. It was held up in the light of day for all to see now, this is bringing us all the way back to

This idea of self-trust, trust in others and earning others trust, would I make the decision, take the action. If my family knew about it would I be proud? If my customers knew about it would I be proud? Would they applaud me if my suppliers knew about it would I be proud? Of my colleagues knew about it, would they be proud? If my leader knew about it, would they be proud? And it’s this focus on our decisions and our actions proactively rather than reactively that allows us to earn build and maintain trust as opposed to reactively try and rebuild trust.

Donna Hanson: Wow, yeah, I’ve really loved our conversation today, David. And as I said, you know, we could both take the leg of chair. Let’s be honest, and I mentioned two of your books at the start, but you’ve got five

So I mentioned Intentionomics and the art and science of building customer trust I hear there’s a new book about to be released. Can you tell me a little about that one?

David Penglase: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s been a work in progress now for about 18 months but reality, probably for all of my adult life. Maybe all of my life. I’m the books working title and we’re in the final edit stage now is living in the light of day. There’s a little segue. Thank you.

And what it’s basically doing is, is having this conversation that you and I are having it’s bringing the world of philosophy of Science of applied positive psychology of trust intention and it’s just posing the question and giving some answers but evidence based answers around how do we truly be at our best because it’s so easy to say, you know, you’ve got to have a positive mental attitude.

That’s just such an old idea because there’s some really serious stuff going on right now and we need more than a positive mental attitude we need to be able to find meaning. In our lives about what makes us the best version of ourselves and what typically makes us the best version of ourselves is when we do good for other people which brings us all the way back to our intention. So that’s what the books about it’s asking the question, how do we be the best version of ourselves and does a little wind through this this world of intention of trust and applied positive psychology as well.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So it sounds like a nice final point where you’re taking a whole lot of your other books and bring it down to do still you’re learning. So if people wanted to want that book. And save themselves all the time, money, and effort associated with all your degrees. There’s your book on your answer in one

David Penglase: Well, that’s the idea. I don’t have all the answers, but posing some questions with some answers is a pretty neat way to go. So if people want to find out.
Anything more about that if they just google David Penglase that sounds just so weird for me to say that but that’s, the easiest way and you know my website, there’s, you know, newsletters and you know there’s a Facebook page and there’s a LinkedIn page, but use my name use my name that sounds like a song.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. It will be down the bottom of the banner just there. So, people won’t get it wrong, that’s for sure.

Donna Hanson: Look, David on loved having a chat with you today. It’s always good to catch up thanks so very much for your time and your insights on trust.

Donna Hanson: Thanks everyone for joining us for this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week!

In March 2020 the world as we knew it changed forever when we were hit with the COVID-19 pandemic.  The trauma of something unlike anything experienced in our lifetime and the stress of working about family, work and safety has weighed heavily on people’s minds.

Whilst navigating our way out is a slow process, dealing with the trauma and stress is likely to be an ongoing issue.  When we are stress or traumatised, we are generally no were near as productive as we would like to be in ANY part of our lives.

In this episode I speak with Christi Garner, a US based Trauma Educator who utilises EDMR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, an interactive psychotherapy technique used to relive psychological stress in her practice to help clients deal with trauma and stress.

To find out more about Christi visit www.traumaeducator.com

To find out more about EDMR visit www.edmr.com

Donna Hanson: Hello and welcome to this Expert Insights episode I’m Donna Hanson in this Expert Insights episode we speak with Christi Garner. Christi is a trauma educator who utilizes EMDR therapy for trauma resolution have to say that slowly. EMDR Therapy using interactive psychotherapy technique used to relieve psychological stress. It’s an effective treatment for trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. I know Christi does a lot of work with first responders and given more ease and what has been happening around the world with the code 19 pandemic. I was curious to find out more about EMDR. How it helps and how it can help everyday people deal with trauma or the impact of the fall at a pandemic brings to mental health. Hi Cristi. Thanks for coming on the show today.

Christi Garner: Hey, Donna. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Donna Hanson: Before we start, how did you get into EMDR and can you explain a bit more about what it is.

Christi Garner: Absolutely, so EMDR is eye movement desensitization reprocessing. And what that means is you move your eyes from side to side. So you stimulate the right and left side of your brain. Bilateral stimulation and a lady named Francine Shapiro came up with it and she says she was walking through Central Park in New York City, and she was
Feeling these memories and these thoughts about something that was really bothering her and had been going on for a while, and she noticed that she was walking. She kept looking from right to left and right to left and right to left. For a while, and then she sat down on a bench and she noticed she felt a whole lot better. And she was like maybe there’s something to this whole thing. So she started experimenting. So I think it’s been maybe 20 or 30 years since that day in the park and she’s run lots of tests. And people use it all over the world for lots of different things, but mostly to decrease the effects of trauma in the body in mind after distressing events.

Donna Hanson: And there’s certainly a certainly a fair few of those going on at the moment, isn’t It?

Christi Garner: Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve been in town therapist for like 20 years working on the front lines with all sorts of people survivors and EMDR is kind of like what I call the most somatic natural therapy, so am EMDR uses your body’s natural responses to help you move through the trauma. And I noticed or my 20 years of working that that is where people get the most relief is where they really tune in to the body’s natural response for healing and I wanted to dive deeper into that. So I did some EMDR training and try that on myself and I was amazed at the results. So I became a therapist in it myself.

Donna Hanson: So, it sounds to me like it’s a bit like the psychological equivalent of your body self-healing when you cut it or something along those lines, but taking a more proactive approach rather than with your finger, it’s, a natural healing process that just happens without any conscious thought

Christi Garner: Absolutely, yep. Similar the body kind of puts everything back where it goes. When you go through EMDR so that’s the thing I think is amazing. Choosing our body’s natural response not kind of getting all these tools and techniques and having to do them the right way and just kind of follow the body’s natural inclination and that’s where the healing happens

Donna Hanson: Hmm, interesting. Well thanks for that. So it’s strange times at the moment with the global pandemic. What have you observed during this time as it relates to EMDR and in your work.

Christi Garner: Sure. So let’s just talk about trauma in general. Right EMDR is used when you’re trying to really relieve something that’s been very distressing and something that you can’t really get through on your own. And I think right now. We’re all in the middle of a very distressing event and all of our bodies are extremely tax and we’re all having a hard time or you know, we’re using our coping mechanisms that maybe aren’t the best or healthiest or easiest for everyone around us to cope with what’s going on. So I think that we’re seeing a lot of course 27% increase in alcohol sales all over the world. So some coping skills right people are sleeping or can’t sleep drinking too much, probably more pizzas bought than have ever been bought in the history of grocery stores. I don’t know for sure. But just a lot of coping skills right people really trying to deal with their emotions and not quite knowing how to do that. So I think just seeing a lot of agitation relationships either falling apart or getting closer. We’re seeing a lot of extremes, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I notice it here because I know at the time we’re recording this we’re still in lockdown in Melbourne, Australia and you know it’s challenging, you get to a point where people feel like they caged and they start to rebel and then you start to see those any coping mechanisms, they may have had, you know, start to fall away and people are looking for alternative ways of expressing their frustration and anger and disappointment and you know how they feel emotionally about all this. . So So how does trauma affect people. Well, I’m assuming, because we’re going through this pandemic. Now it’s not limited to the person who has experiences. And not suggesting that that one experience is worse than an hour, but that each person’s own experiences are extreme to them, regardless of what that experience is for them. But I’m assuming it’s not limited to trauma itself, but has a flow on affect.

Christi Garner: Yeah, absolutely. You know what I really like to explain to people is number one And I bet you’ve seen some of this in maybe your spouse or you know someone close to you in your home. You people around you that you know really well. They’re coping mechanisms like the ones that they used when they were five are the ones we’re going to start to see. So it’s not necessarily that your partner is a terrible person or that they always act this way, but something will happen, and you’ll be like, Oh my gosh. So I just say people’s worst coping skills right now are really coming to the surface. And I think that’s one way that it’s affecting every single person right and your history of trauma, your history of kind of what kind of social networks that you have right the way that you were raised, if you have like a really close knit family and a lot of support. Those people I think have a different way of experiencing what’s going on right now if you’re one of those people that’s a little bit more isolated in general and has let’s say some family members that have died and you’re kind of more alone.

You’re going to be having a totally different experience than other people. Right. So I think there’s a wide range of what’s happening. And besides our worst coping skills coming to the forefront. I think we’re also seeing this kind of one thing on top of another on top of another. Right. And so the cumulative effect of everything that’s happening is really taking a toll on our systems and we get less and less able to handle stress. To think creatively to focus right this is what I keep reminding kind of employers like people need more time off right now just to recover from the week and the news and the fires and the hurricane and the racial uprising. And with covid 19 and their family member, being in the, you know, kind of isolated in the old folks home so many things on top of each other, even if you think everyone’s doing well, they really aren’t doing their best work right now.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, that’s so true everything you said there and I think the key thing for anybody watching these is you can’t judge everyone else’s experience by your own because each experience that people are going through is individual and it, it seems, big because you’re going to write. I always love. I don’t know if you remember a show. I think it was in the 90s called Ally Mcbeal and I remember Lucy Liu saying to calista flock hart why are your problems so much bigger than everyone else’s. And I remember Ally Mcbeal looking at the camera and going well because their mind. You know, and, and I just thought that was just such a reservation to me at the time our problems seem so huge, because they belong to us. So we have an emotional attachment to them, but you don’t feel the same towards my experiences because you haven’t experienced those experiences. So it’s interesting, isn’t it? So, um, what can the collaborative we as an organization teams or families do build and incorporate all my information into policies, procedures, and practices and I’m, I’m guessing those three probably are the sorts of things we’d be doing at home, but we all have our own unwritten ways of operating in households and families don’t we?

Christi Garner: Yeah. Absolutely! And I love that question. I think it’s so needed right now to keep asking that question. What can I do for myself? What can I do? In my home with my family and what can I, how can I support this in the bigger picture of what I do every day and you know I like to give this example of my husband is such a better person when he comes home and he sits in the car or sits on the porch for five minutes and just breathes deeply right, I was talking to another friend on the phone yesterday and I said, you know, right now, really, we have to take care of ourselves. And we have to take care of our own nervous systems. I think everybody’s a little bit crunchy around the edge. Right. Yeah, a little bit activated. So staying regulated is the first way that we can affect change inside of ourselves, our families and even have those difficult conversations that we need to be having about how do we change the systems in the world right we have to be regulated. So doing the deep breathing and meditation.

Sometimes I say we don’t always need to calm down, sometimes we need to move with the energy to regulate. So, you know, I tell people like get some exercise go on a brisk walk going to run right do some push ups or, you know, do whatever it is that helps you move energy out of your body. For most of us, that’s some kind of exercise and movement. I think some people like to dance or to tai chi or, you know, some kind of yoga. Right. But there’s simple ways like just doing push ups against the wall for a couple minutes during your brakes in your day can really help to move some of that energy up and out, which helps you to stay a little bit more open and when we’re a little more regulated and open, then we can approach, all of our problems in a more creative and diverse way than if we’re got this much space, right.

Donna Hanson: Yeah.

Christi Garner: So that’s the first step for yourself for your family and for organizations. Right. It keeps saying, you got to make time for people to do this. You got to make it easy. In a meeting to come into a zoom meeting and say, hey, connect right eye. The eye is what helps us regulate our nervous systems when we’re really agitated someone else even across the zoom to saying, how are you really helps us to come into our bodies. Right. And so that’s going to help just a simple thing you can do for your job or with people. I also tell people with your kids that are going to home school right they just need a little bit more time in between and in their transitions to like

Christi Garner: Yeah.

Donna Hanson: This is a new experience around and particularly for children, you know, if you’re home-schooling you know it’s highly likely they haven’t experienced something like this before. And this is traumatic and as adults, it’s likely that in the course of your life, you’ve probably experienced some trauma, not like the type of trauma that we have. So I guess collectively as organizations as teams and as families. We’re all it’s, you know, I know it’s a cliche, but we’re all going through the same experience together and how we feel how we respond and how we react. It’s going to be different for different people. Because, for example, if, if I’m a mother and I’m working from home and I have a couple of young school aged children. It’s going to be extremely stressful for me because I’m now trying to work from home as well as home school my kids. How do I juggle all that sort of thing? So it creates a lot of stress that if I work in an organization where my manager doesn’t have children or has adult children that can that are self-sufficient in educating themselves and it makes it harder to provide empathy. Yeah.

Christi Garner: Yeah Absolutely empathy Why I say we all need to build more of it, share it because that’s what everybody needs right now, just like you said, we just don’t know what’s happening for each person.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. So, um, you shared an idea about sort of grounding. And one of the things that your husband does when he come time and sitting out on the porch or in the car and just reconnecting so a lot of people will do that sort of thing. If they’re going physically to a workplace. Do you have a view or ideas or any insights you could share with our viewers and those who may be listening to keep them grounded in these challenging times

Christi Garner: You know, you were speaking of being in lockdown. And I think that’s been the experience of so many of us around the world. And you guys right now. And this way of what kind of routines. Do you have that bring you a little bit of peace, right, like how do you stare at some trees out your window for two minutes a day. Right. How do you make a cup of tea and really pay attention to the smells of your tea and let your body just inviting those enrolments right do you play the your favourite music as you’re showering or at the end of your day as a transition out of work into your home time right how do you actually bring in little pieces that feel like giving yourself a hug? Right. How do we give ourselves a hug, every day?

In these lots of different ways. I think that that’s an important piece and that piece of no one can do it for us. We really have to do it ourselves, you know, and just really showing up. And I think the other thing, right, there’s this piece of we’re really trying to cultivate resilience. We’re trying to cultivate our nervous systems being able to handle a larger amount of this dysregulation uncomfortable and uncertainty. So have you do that and that is the other piece of being able to kind of regulate even when things are a little bit bigger than you think you can handle. So my best tip for that is cold Shower adding 123 minutes of cold water your shower at the end of the day, or you can start by splashing cold water in your face. But right the body when it feels that cold water is immediately going to constrict. Yeah. And so what will you want to do is we want to help our systems.

When that constriction happens to breathe through that right so that’s that minute of cold water, the end of your shower. You’re really teaching your system that you know it feels like this. It’s actually OK. Right. And we’re going to be okay to live through this minute of cold water every day so those kinds of tips of how we stretch. Just a little bit further. That’s really what we also need to be practicing right now.

Donna Hanson: I think I’m one of the things I’ve learned over the years is, you know, when I recognize in my head that I’m stuck in a particular place. And I don’t like that place.
you know, you talked about going back to exercise for a lot of people as being the one thing I just think about how can I change my state.
So if for example you know I’m craving some chocolate or some junk food or something. I have this trigger now in my head where I go. Okay, well, you know, if I still feel like that, after I’ve had a drink of water. Then I’ll go for it. And I tried to pace it out to take away that urge for something that I know consciously isn’t necessarily good for me it’s nice treat. That you know, a whole block of chocolate work well it doesn’t cut it. But like you said things like, going for a walk.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve found in this in the middle of all of this. One of the things I’ve noticed is I’m noticing stuff.

So, you know, I’m blessed in living in Australia where I’m not far away from parkland so I can go for a walk and in or 10 minutes from my home. I can see they call it a mob of kangaroos grazing on the grass and it’s just amazing to walk past and watch, there’s usually one that that is watching out to protect the whole mom. And it, it seems to make eye contact with you and I swear it’s like the Mona Lisa as you know the cartoon things. It’s like the eyes are looking at your age. What class because it’s trying to assess whether you’re a threat or not. Now, you know. I’d have done that same walk for a long period of time. And sometimes you just get caught up in the business of what you’re doing that you don’t actually recognize the beauty that’s around you and I think is that something that you’ve noticed people would become a little more grounded, a little more present

Christi Garner: Yeah I think that that’s a great way to describe it. And that thing of slowing down, right, that just a little bit, like you said, taking that extra moment. To take in that scene and be like, oh wow look at that. I noticed something really small, right. Those are the little things. I think that are also building that capacity right like the world is so much bigger than what’s happening to us right in this moment. And how do you go from that micro my problems to the bigger like the stars in the sky and the mob of kangaroos, you know, this is that kind of titration of how our hearts beat right how a butterfly’s wings fly right in and out, we’re not supposed to always be at one or the other. Right. We want to cultivate the capacity to keep moving in and out both ways. So I love that example.

Donna Hanson: You have such a calming voice to get told that over time.

Christi Garner: I do. And I’m not sure if I had it before, if it’s just like the years and years of therapy that made it that way.

Donna Hanson: One of the things that I’m concerned about, particularly for organizations who might be slowly bringing staff back into the office or perhaps their requirement icing themselves with a new way of working, because I know I spoke to a client recently who said that we’re grateful that they had all their technology setup so it wasn’t that challenging to
format and equipment perspective to enable people to work from home, but it did now prompted them to reassess they’re working model moving forward and a lot more people will be working from home because you know, it’s better for their lives, etc. Or it, you know, there is no need for them to return to an office environment. So as people start to go through that return to work sort of scenario, you know, I imagine a lot of people are going to be bringing experiences and their stresses and their anxieties back to the office and happen organizations or how can families or teams.
Make sure that they don’t sort of traumatize people by bringing them back to the office or to schools, etc. In the wrong way or in a way that really all it does is just further agitates the feelings that they they’ve developed as a result of the pandemic.

Christi Garner: Yeah. So I was reading a little bit about Facebook today about how they’ve transitioned their workforce and what they’re up to. And they said, the number one thing they loved was they gave people the military is doing this to giving people the ability for the next six months or until the end of the year to do what they need to do and be as flexible as possible. And I think that that is such a great way of thinking about it, right, we’re looking at the big picture here for your employees. For your business for the way that things function. So if you say, hey, whatever is going to work for you the best over this next chunk of time we want to support you to do that? So I thought that was great that they said that. And another thing is to really hone in on the communication piece right we talked about how it really helps to help people regulate, but I think especially people in this regulating situations, the more that they know the better they feel right. We’re all trying to get a little bit of control. Over a circumstance that we really have hardly any control over so the more that you can communicate your employees exactly what you’re doing. The more you open up the communication and make those channels available for people to hop in and hear from you, once a week.

I think the better your people are going to feel about trusting you coming into that place and being able to know exactly what to expect from you. And I think that’s the number one thing that people can do right now.

Donna Hanson: Do you think this will change the team dynamics that as people come back to the workplace, because we’ve gone through this shared experience together. Do you think the dynamics of how organizations and the teams will work will become for obviously it’ll become different. But more sort of family and supportive nature rather than just being your work call a again. And that’s the box that you fit in.

Christi Garner: Yeah. You know, we’ve seen each other’s homes and offices and pets and kids and, you know, we’ve seen so much from each other over this time I think being in each other’s homes this way and you know, one of the biggest things that the surveys. Keep showing is there’s such a high level of anxiety, depression, People really not knowing how to deal with their mental health and wellness issues that I think it’s impossible now. To go back to normal. I think there’s got to be a way that we integrate a whole lot more health and wellness support into our everyday in all of our systems and make people feel like we really know that
they’re struggling and we really understand that this is such an uncertain time and moving forward. You know, how you tell someone we care about the whole picture of you and not just what you’re giving to this job or this project right now. We really want to support you as a person. I feel like businesses that aren’t doing that are going to lose tons of their employees.

Donna Hanson: And I agree with you, 100% there. I think one of the things I’ve noticed is those organizations that are demonstrating to their employees that they care about. Not just their performance and their productivity, but about their, like you said, holistic health are going to be the ones that when all of this is over opportunities are created for people to go to other jobs. People won’t want to go anywhere because the organization’s looked after them. So, I think, to a degree, how organizations respond to this crisis as will start to bring back and transition to a new normal. Will determine, you know, whether they become employers of choice and create that loyalty where realistically let’s be honest, for probably the last 20 plus years.
You know generations back considered you started working a job. And that’s where you stayed the whole Korea but now I think it’s almost like we’re circling back and there’s the possibility for organizations to retain their intellectual capital all dependent upon how they respond in the next phase of reconnecting. What are your thoughts on that?

Christi Garner: No, I absolutely agree with you, 100%. One of the things we were talking about just recently in like training right now. Like what kind of training, can we do and someone brought up. Wow. That one really feels good. That feels like you care about the people that you’re that are in your company that feels like you’re extending something saying we’re thinking about how you’re doing. And we really want you to get the skills or get the support because we really want to help you.

And I thought like, wow, if you think about that piece. And if you just incorporated one more kind of training or support system for your employees, where they felt like, Oh, that feels so good. Those people are going to do so much more work for you excel in what they’re doing, create better you know have deeper conversations with each other. Then if you just keep doing the same thing, you know. And I think that’s exactly what you’re talking about how on that new way of how do we support the people to bring out the best in them into keep them with us.

Donna Hanson: And I think there’s a really, really fine line between showing that connection to stop and just ticking the box. And I think the organizations that stand out will be able to look at something and go, this is something we need to go all in on this is not a tick the box. The. In fact, if we go down a tick the box path you’re probably going to upset a lot of people. So if you’re going to do it, do it well because this is the time that it really counts?

Christi Garner: Absolutely and you know we’ve been talking so much about pivot. And I’m like, well, this is a time to actually like source deep inside of yourself and say, what I want the next phase of my life, my business, my organization to look like. And so I think all those things you’re talking about. We create those out of that place of what do I want this to look like in 10 years. And how do we start doing those things today.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. So I’m at us fast running out of time. And, you know, like all the other interviews I do I’m convinced we could just chat that hours. But what type of resources or programs do you have for anybody watching or listening that may be interested in exploring a conversation with you.

Christi Garner: Thank you so much for asking, Donna. I have a couple of resources on my website traumaeducator.com There’s a free download for people that are working on the front lines right now mini course. And there’s a bigger course for employers that want to bring this resilience into their teams and workplaces and there’s lots of little downloads for how to do nervous system regulation different ways that you can help yourself right now.

Donna Hanson: So it was that traumaeducator.com Yes. Okay. And we’ll make sure we got the link down below for you at Crissy thanks so much for your time today and for your insights on trauma and support and treatment to help people during these challenging times

Thanks for joining us on this Expert Insights episode. Until next time, this is productivity and technology expert Donna Hansen have an amazing week!

You may not make the connection between food and productivity, but the link is important.  Food is our body’s fuel and making the right choices has a HUGE impact on your energy and concentration throughout the day.  Understanding how to make good food choices sets up your energy and maximum productivity and enables you to focus on getting important things done.

Barbara Baron is a registered Dietitian Nutritionist who works with organizations to help educate employees on the benefits of healthier food choices.

Barbara is a former president of the New York State Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.

If you are anything like me, sometimes making healthier food choices can be challenging, but Barbara shares her MVP strategy to help us make healthier choices and as a result experience increased energy and productivity in our everyday lives.

In this episode, Barbara and I walk through what her MVP strategy and shares ideas to make healthier food choices easy for us all! 

Donna Hanson: Hello and welcome to this Expert Insights episode. I’m Donna. Hanson. In this episode, we speak with Barbara Baron. Now let me tell you a little bit about Barbara

Donna Hanson: Known as the family meals dietitian Barbara is a registered dietitian nutritionist. That’s a bit of a mouthful.

Donna Hanson: She puts in 30 years of food and nutrition expert expertise into action, whether working with employer’s health professional groups or busy moms one on one.

Donna Hanson: Barbara dispels nutrition misinformation. She educates, informs and inspires people to unlock the benefits of healthier food choices, while enjoying the foods they love without guilt.

Donna Hanson: She’s the founder of the be your own MVP program through moderation variety and planning and individualize nutrition program based on moderation variety and a good plan. Sounds good.

Donna Hanson: She’s the past president of the New York State Academy of Nutrition and Diet tactics. She’s a Brooklyn native and Barbara is also a fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and dietetic I always have trouble with that word.

Donna Hanson: works with organizations in a team’s empowering them to create balance nutritious meal plans to live a healthier and happier life one meal at a time. And who doesn’t want that. Hi, Barbara and welcome.

Barbara Baron: Hi, Donna. So great to be here. I know on the other side of the world. It’s just amazing technology.

Donna Hanson: It is, it is absolutely dietetics is an interesting one. And, you know, we have got lots and lots of questions and probably not enough time. But let’s just see how much we can get through that before we start, I’m curious to know how you came about.

Donna Hanson: Oh, how you came to be a dietitian. Were you always interested in it?

Barbara Baron: You know what I always was a science buff, or I love science and I, when I was back in seventh grade, you know, I won’t take it that far back, but I really enjoyed the digestive system and speeding up to when I was 15 in high school, you know, a little packet on a few pounds and high school dances coming around. And this was before the internet. So, I decided to go to my doctor and asked him for some advice. So, I got this nice little piece of paper from him, and it was a little tri fold piece of paper and it was 1200 calorie diet for an adult woman. What do you think is wrong with that picture?

Donna Hanson: And is he trying to tell you’re overweight,

Barbara Baron: Actually I’m 15 and this is for an adult woman.  I’m still growing. I’m still growing bones and muscle and everything, but I’m not faulting him. That’s what he had at the time. And then, you know, that was before all this fancy stuff anyway. Now we have more science and I took Advanced Placement biology because I was the science nerd and so I really just decided it, or not decided I learned that food is more than just calories. Because when I got this piece of paper. I really thought that this was the holy grail of diet. It was traveling to college, I had the food. It had the calories, but that’s it. The food and the calories and food is more than just calories.

Donna Hanson: Wow. So, it sounds like it just created a real curiosity about how all this works and how the body processes and so forth.

Barbara Baron: You know, always amazed me. It’s amazing. You know, you take something you the body breaks it down and it goes to all the places that it needs to go to whether it’s for building muscle or for your heart of your hormones. It’s just amazing.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, I think sometimes we just take it for granted. Don’t we?

Barbara Baron: Yes, and I do appreciate that not everyone has my appreciation for science. So

I will stop at that point.

Donna Hanson: So, I know this seems like a fairly obvious sort of question because, you know, we hear it a lot in the media, etc. But why do we need to eat better. And what exactly does eat better and really mean.

Barbara Baron: Well, all right, let’s start here. Do you want more energy, do you want to be clear, more clarity and food gives us that. It’s kind of like energizing your battery like recharging your battery or putting gas in your fuel tank at the car, you got to feed your body so you feel better. And so, it’s really important to do that with food and good food, healthy food. Sometimes we know we don’t always make the best of choices. But you can do it with just some really basic information and I teach three pillars. I kind of call it the three legs of a kitchen stool, because I love family meals. And so, it’s moderation variety and planning and that is to become your own MVP so humoral me a little bit with the MVP. However, I really do believe in this. I’ve always taught students too as nutrition and I say, if you take nothing else for me. But those three words, those three pillars, you will be set for life in a sense because moderation is the right sized portion. If we eat just what our body needs. We will be fine. We don’t need any more because anything excess will get turned into fat. And then it’ll also give us the energy that we need the importance of variety.

Barbara Baron: You know foods, we have all these food groups and all these foods for a reason, there is no one food that will give has the magic. Answer or the magic bullet. You know, everybody wants to lose weight they want more, better health got health but it all works together. And so, varieties important. Grains will give us B vitamins fruits and vegetables, give us vitamin A and C. And then we have our protein foods. So, it all works. And then, of course, a good plan you have we plan our finances, we plan our vacations, we plan our careers. But do we plan our eating.?

Donna Hanson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I know, I know for me and I’m vegetarian and I find if I don’t have pre-prepared stuffing the fridge. It just makes it really challenging and I get frustrated and I guess when you’re frustrated you make maybe not so good food choices that can end up you know making you feel really sleepy in an afternoon for meetings.

Barbara Baron: Yes. Very true.

Barbara Baron: So now. May I ask what type of vegetarian because they’re very varying levels of vegetarianism.

Donna Hanson: So yeah, I’m vegetarian, but I still eat eggs and dairy, although I minimize my dairy, but I don’t eat any product that is part of an animal. So, I don’t eat fish, because that would be a pescatarian but yeah so like for me.

Barbara Baron: Don’t tell

Barbara Baron: You don’t harm the animal that for so that’s a lacto-ovo vegetarian

Barbara Baron: Yet desert area that you are

Donna Hanson: Yes, I don’t know the menu options with the animal and

Barbara Baron: By science nerd coming for

Barbara Baron: Yes.

Donna Hanson: So, you know, for me, like to plan ahead. You know, on Sunday. I had some mixture of vegetables so I had broccoli. I had cauliflower. I had zucchini and I had carrots and I just chopped them all up and I put them in a pot of boiling water and just put them to be nice and tender, put them in a big container and and I just follow them up and you know that might be my breakfast or a snack or whatever. And sometimes they’ll have leftover salad sitting in the fridge so

Barbara Baron: Anything goes for breakfast.

Barbara Baron: That’s true.

Barbara Baron: In fact, I always do encourage more and more vegetables and fruits and we don’t get enough fruits and vegetables. So, I always tell all of my clients, wherever you can get in more vegetables. The non-starchy vegetables, especially do, go for it. Like, you can make an omelette with spinach, broccoli, or any of those what lovely vegetables that you’ve mentioned and they are so many plant compounds nutrient compounds. And that’s why I say food first. Always because there’s things in food that are that nature has packaged that we can’t replicate.And I know it’s tough to replicate. 

Donna Hanson: I tried it, it just makes it easier for your body to process the less processed is means it’s easier to process. Yeah, that’s sort of that sort of the thinking that I’ve always had. So one. Great. Okay. So, okay, that’s good. I’ve got permission on not a weirdo for eating vegetables in them.

Barbara Baron: No, no. I love it. In fact, I am always if I don’t have vegetables, I always make sure I have some type of fruit in the morning. And today I had berries because I love berries and they’re so and if you’re if someone’s watching calories. They’re low in calories if someone’s watching their heart health, strawberries, have been known to help with heart health.

Donna Hanson: Awesome, that’s even just adding in little bits and pieces because somebody might have, you know, had issues in the family and the more you can do to help. You know support your body. Now, I sort of figure what I am, what I do to my buddy now will impact on my quality of life. When I’m in my 70s or 80s. You know what I mean.

Barbara Baron: It’s very true. Yeah, now. And so on.

Donna Hanson: So, Barbara, what sort of work to corporate clients seem guide you fall

Barbara Baron: But they want their employees to be happier healthy live longer to and they kind of think of themselves, most often it’s their work, family that their kins concerned about. So, when we’re looking at what I do is I’ll talk to employees their staff and it’s helping them. Either lower their blood cholesterol levels, their blood sugar or weight management, I will give talks primarily on these issues or concerns. And it’s not talking just the numbers. It’s how to do it healthfully and how to do it tastefully because food and taste. I mean, food should be taste, taste good for it to be effective in our body, right.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, until that if something doesn’t taste nice. It’s teeny the process, isn’t it?

Barbara Baron: Yes. Very true. So, I’m really, I’ll focus on how to power up with breakfast or reclaim your power breakfast, make it healthier so maybe I don’t. It’s not the thing you want to go for in the morning or a Danish but maybe a nice segue with some vegetables or an egg burrito would be nice.

Barbara Baron: And then it might be healthy holiday eating or it could be instead of dining out these days. It might be more like dining in how to order and eat at home.

Donna Hanson: Yeah why I know that certainly become a growth industry in Australia with the government lockdown etc. you know, not being locked down for an extended period of time and not being able to dine out, although it we’re starting to open up a bit more. But you know a lot more people dining in and it’s great to see just the changing offerings that are coming out which is which is good.

So, I, I imagine that you know clients are looking to have their programs available for staff or having someone like you are available and why. Why do you think there’s such an interest? I know we talked about what home when work, family.

Barbara Baron: Home and work, family, and there are so many benefits. So, you can our employee players will really see a significant return on the investment for a health and wellness program.

Usually it’s for every dollar spent is an average between two to four dollars saved by having that program and then the average sick leave the health plan costs workers compensation can be decreased by like about 25% in cost savings. So, there is a you know, kind of a drive to incorporate corporate wellness into the, into an employee and employer situation or corporation.

And the other I focus on family meals and so family meals. I’ll talk about failing family meals. How to we’re in a time of being rushed. Whether it’s time that we’re spending at home working from home nowadays time was a factor time is a factor before with hectic family schedules.

The benefits of each of having family home a home cooked family meal. has shown that their children also have better self-esteem better grades less absenteeism, same as parents, I’ve looked up to the absenteeism, when they, when they eat more healthfully.

So, there are just so many benefits to eating more healthfully corporate wellness programs also have shown that employees. Also have kind of book are more focused either, whether it’s through physical activity or better eating. They’re eating more fruits and vegetables and those are there are

so many wonderful nutrients and fruits and vegetables that we, you know, that benefit not only our gut health but also our brain health.

Donna Hanson: I’m just going off on a slight tangent here. And with that, a lot of organizations around the world. They’re starting to rethink about bringing everybody back into the workplace and there’s some big-name companies that are going to be choosing to have a more hybrid model where people maybe work from home for part of the week and are in the office part of the week, or they may work from home forever more. Or, you know, derivations of that, um, do you think, do you see that as an opportunity for organizations to add value.

Doing something like you do so that they can support the people who are at home that maybe

you know, feel like they’ve got less ability to make those food choices because you know they’re stuck inside their house during the workday, whereas in the office. You know, it’s pretty easy to pop out and go and grab some fast food and whilst it makes you feel good in the moment. It can make you feel pretty sluggish afterwards.

Barbara Baron: Yes. And what I think is important is the I’ll go back to even just the concept of variety. We need diversity, diversity in or diversifying our work day to break things up. So, if being at home if it’s in front of a computer in front of your iPad or your device, whatever, mobile, mobile device. Maybe it’s just your phone. You need to break it up and there are different venues and giving presentations even virtually so you can view, something you can listen to something while you’re exercising or while you’re going for a walk, taking a mini break or walk break from working stepping away, you can still listen to some helpful tips like from Barbara Baron

So just things like that to help break up the monotony or the not even the money that the you feel like you’re constantly on the go and you’re constantly, constantly on call. We work longer or more hours when working from home and I love, I love my job. I love what I do. So sometimes I just be here for it for anyone who needs. And sometimes I even must take a break. So, I make sure I go for my walk in the morning and I take a walk, get up and do a stretch, break, break, like at lunchtime or right in the afternoon, and sometimes you get a little tired and even standing rather than do to do your work. So, these factors come into play. I’m not a physical and our exercise expert but I do know the benefit of healthy eating on your body.

Donna Hanson: So yeah, obviously it’s a combination of multiple things you know your environment, the things you put in the things you expand it etc.…. so

Barbara Baron: I know Donna we’re none of us. Well, I don’t know, maybe some people but none of us are perfect. So, every day is a new start and we just have to start from where we are and one step at a time. And it’s okay.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I’m Father, I’d be hard to change sort of cold turkey, so to speak. So, if an organization was considering say a wellness or a nutritional program for their staff, where should they stand.

Barbara Baron: Very I say take small steps and the first step is to ask or understand what your employees need, what do they, what do they struggle with, what are their health concerns. Now you can do some I want to say not screenings, but you can do some evaluations that are HIPPA compliant or anonymous to understand where the health risks lie within your company.

Is there a higher incidence of heart disease or diabetes or whatever it may be. There’s other issues that you know no one really knows about gut health is really important irritable bowel syndrome is another very popular condition that all those things. First, take an assessment, where people struggle and then it might be just, oh, I don’t want to eat healthy, you know, as you mentioned, reaching out through the fast food.

Place and get something quick and easy. It takes 20 minutes sometimes to just really put together a healthy dish and a little bit of planning doesn’t hurt. And plus, I’ll also can tell you that you can order and I’ve worked with clients who are not cooks. They don’t like to cook. So, I will guide them through some of the menu options at some of these fast food places. What can they do to eat more healthfully make better choices and what are the portion sizes? When we tend to eat out the portions are usually we have like a there overgrown like three times what we should be eating sometimes not all the time.

Donna Hanson: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I know that a lot of the fast food chains here in Australia. Very health conscious and have their you know their derivation of a healthy choice meal so that they speak to the masses, you know, they might have a plant based burger or they might have a rack that it has salad items in it, but I still think there’s a little bit of a ways to go.

Barbara Baron: There is. And just because something might be plant based doesn’t necessarily it’s oh it’s only one ingredient is so some of your plant based items can be more processed and something that isn’t plant based, it’s just to be a little bit more aware as a consumer, and as an eater to know the difference and I’m not saying that any of its bad because i don’t i don’t believe in good food bad food. I don’t believe in diets, I believe. I don’t believe in fad diets, I call them false effects of dieting.

So, it’s really striking that balance. And again, none of us are perfect, but you do have to be aware of what you what choices we’re making I’ve known many many people who have just gone all plant based, and if they’re not, you know,

As there’s a commercial, you know, the beer is here being vegan. Yeah. Dad out there about that, but I’m not promoting that I’m just saying, we just need to be a little bit more cautious and wise and to the choices we make.

Donna Hanson: Need to be mindful. I know. My dad wanted to go with me to a fast food chain to get a burger. And what would you wait. And I know that they have a vegan or plant based burger and I had a look and it had something like 680 calories and I’m thinking, you know, I don’t know, like that would be a night out for me to consume maybe 680 calories in dinner but you know I’m a little more conscious of what I’m putting into my body and sometimes it’s just a matter of the knowing, isn’t it?

Barbara Baron: That’s all knowledge is knowledge is power. Right. And the, you may want that 680-calorie burger, which is fine as long as you know, excuse me.

As long as you know what you’re you’re eating and then you can adjust maybe at the next meal or the next day, because it’s cumulative effect it’s over like there’s over three of our week three day, week one week period that we kind of want to strike that balance. As I said, we’re not perfect, but we try and make strive for better choices.

Donna Hanson: Mm hmm. So now as individuals. What are one or two simple things we can do to give us more energy or stamina during the day.

Barbara Baron: Well, there are two check system or actually three. check plate check snack check hydration enough water, so your plate checks half your plate. One advice is, we don’t get enough fruits and vegetables at least like if it’s half fruits and vegetables are healthy vegetables fill that plate up with your especially non-starchy vegetables, leafy greens butternut squash roasted cauliflower. Oh, I you know I can go on and on with carrots.

There’s so much good nutrition there and it fills you up and you’re satisfied, you do need a little bit of protein, you do need a little bit of greens or something to give you a little bit more substance. But again, that will give you half the plate fruits and vegetables. If nothing else, and then snack a good snack, depending on the time of day, but I always kind of Pears, do a little snack pairing. So, say a fruit or vegetable once again with a protein source. So, like, let’s say, Apple and peanut butter. What a great snack. It’s almost tastes like caramel apples.

You slice it up. You put a little like a tablespoon throughout for the whole apple tablespoon of peanut butter is delicious. Another night snack. You can do Peanut Butter and Banana. Sure, you maybe have heard of that. Bell pepper and Hummus is a nice combo.

So, and a nice snack to sustain you to the next meal. Now if you’re eating dinner in an hour, you may not want that snack. But if it’s going to be two hours or three hours stretch between, say, lunch, and dinner. Go for it.

And again, I’m going to berries in yogurt is a wonderful thing. I love doing that maybe adding a little bit of either chia seeds or flax seeds.

For some omega three fatty acids are at fibre go on for that. Anyway, all those wonderful things and everyone’s an individual so calories will and portion sizes will be adjusted for individual needs.

Donna Hanson: And here I am numbers of years ago I went and saw a dietitian. I went for about

 I think I went six or seven times and what it really did for me was gave me clarity around something that had been commercialized a lot by, you know, the media how women in particular being female and we’re supposed to love can and the issues that that developed in my head and I found that a liberating and empowering experience. 

So, it’s not just something that people will do. It’s going to see a dietitian, because you have a problem. It’s about understanding because as you said before, when we understand the impact that the things we ate have on our body and how much better we can feel simply by modifying our diet in some way. So is that something you know obviously being a dietitian, you want to help as many people as you can. That is that something that you think’s beneficial. 

Barbara Baron: Think it’s very beneficial. We put too much focus on the scale and not enough focus on how we feel. And I always work in mindful eating and a focus on health, not the number on the scale with any of my clients and so important. And there’s, there are movements its health at every size movement. There are books that have written intuitive eating mindful eating and it is about being, you know, are you hungry stopping pausing taking a little bit longer with your food savouring your food. So definitely that’s important.

And you do we do need some, some of us. Or some may need to develop a new relationship with food. Because of that, you know, or we’ve been part of the clean. Clean Plate Club.

Or maybe it’s been the other way around food has been your pacifying you know to con you and you got to kind of rethink of, you know, that relationship that you have with food.

Donna Hanson: So fast running out of time. I’ve got one more sort of question. Um, any foods that we should or shouldn’t eat at certain types of the day.

Barbara Baron: I’ll just end with this moderation, not deprivation, because I any part of the day you want if you’re hungry, really think about whether you’re hungry or not. I don’t believe in restrictive eating.

There are there are fasting regimens that people may consider and you would want to do that with the guidance of a health professional like a dietitian.

And then you must ask yourself why they’re like, so everyone is an individual it’s may not be what is good for you because if food has been such a focus. It may not be the right thing. If there are individuals out there that are really have had eating disorders. It’s not a good approach to go with an intermittent fasting.

And then there are others that may it may there’s some science and it’s evolving that it may be beneficial for some, but not all. And again, I would really work with an individual on an individualized basis basis. And it’s, again, I’m thinking more mindfully about eating.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. Absolutely. And I think you’ve you’ve bought us to that that place. It’s a nice little circle MVP moderation variety and

Barbara Baron: Good plan

Donna Hanson: Plan. That’s right. Excellent. Good. I’m just embedding that now. And so, if our viewers listeners etc wanted to get in touch. What types of resources or programs do you have or can people explore a conversation with you.

Barbara Baron: Oh, definitely. There’s, I have a website barbarabaron.com and I also have a free Facebook group called better meals with Barbara and I’m in the middle of a I just started a five-day challenge on, guess what.

Donna Hanson: Healthy eating.

Barbara Baron: Healthy eating, but healthy serving sizes. So, we’re focusing on moderation, the right size portion. So that if you go there you can see a little picture of us serving or a bowl of cereal. And it’s like, guess how many cups in that bowl of cereal.

That’s what we’re doing now and then. Anyone who participates. The most will get some free time with me 30 minutes of nutrition assessment of their food in intake. I do a three days food journal that we can look at and then okay, can do it can schedule a free strategy call with me and we can go from there. I have some online resources online on my website. I have a newsletter, and I also have a handout on handy serving size chips and its hand gestures at the table that are PG Rated I’ll leave it there.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. Well, that’s what help you guide you to certain sizes.

That should be really helpful for people who haven’t been exposed to this sort of stuff. Or maybe you’ve never actually thought you know, in much detail about the impact of it. So, if you’re looking for feeling better, more energy, etc. You know, maybe it’s time to just consider having a one to one with a dietitian to talk about you know what’s right for you. So, Barbara. Thanks so much for your time today and for your insights on health and wellness in life and in the workplace.

Donna Hanson: And everyone. Thank you for joining us for this expert insight episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology Donna Hanson have an amazing week

In business everyone wants to make more sales or money!  

Many believe sales is difficult. That you need to do your ABC’s (always be closing) and looking for new customers.  

But there is a much more productive way to generate opportunities to sell and grow your business.  In today’s show my guest Braith Bamkin shares how referrals can grow a business.

But before we start, here’s a bit about Braith…

Braith has several degrees, including Psychology and Marketing and has worked for organisations such as Nokia and Telstra.

These days Braith is a speaker, trainer AND the Executive Director of 2 successful BNI regions in Australia.  BNI which stands for Business Networking International, is an American franchised networking organization with over 270,000 members across 74 countries around the world.  Like his BNI groups, Braith is passionate about helping businesses grow through referrals.

In this episode, Braith and I discuss what a referral is, how to give and receive them and how, with the right strategy, it can grow a business.

To find out more about Braith, visit www.braithbamkin.com

To find out more about BNI (Business Networking International) or find a BNI in your area of the world, visit www.bni.com 

Donna Hanson: Experts insight episode we speak with Braith Bamkin. Braith has several degrees, including psychology and marketing and it’s worked for organizations such as Nokia and Telstra, but these days. Bryce is the executive director of two successful BNI for the uninitiated that stands for business networking international regions and he’s passionate about helping businesses grow through referrals. Hi, Braith. Welcome. How are you today.

Braith Bamkin: I am fantastic Donna, thank you very much for inviting me on to said this with you and your viewers.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So, let’s just get stuck striding what my first question shifting from corporate to BNI and having BNI on many regions why the move?

Braith Bamkin: Do you mind if I take you back in time back to the 80s and I was around I’m not sure you were around my very first real job was working in commercial textiles and I remember in the very first week of working in that company, the woman that had started this business. Now we’re driving across the Sydney Harbour Bridge as you do. And I was looking up at the good as and she said to me, Braith, if you’re going to be successful in this business, you need to know how to network. So, this is the 80s is I was young, I knew everything. Of course, I knew nothing, and I had no idea what that word meant so we went into town. We did our business and on the way, back. I was looking at the girl as again on the Harbour Bridge. And I said, Judy. I have no idea what networking is can you explain what you mean by that. And over the next two years, she taught me what networking was and how you could build your business and how you can become successful through networking and it was a lesson that I took with me. Well, the rest of my time in that business.

And as I moved through corporate and one thing led to another and my very last job, I was working in the mattress business. I was a national sales and marketing manager. We had franchisees and I think you’ve got a network, you’ve got a network. And one of them said to me, where are you doing it. And I went, you know, I’ve given up something I know works well. In fact, I had actually started a networking group here in Melbourne about 20 years ago so nothing. Nothing to do with being I was a not for profit.

And it’s still going. And you know, I went back into it and somebody invited me to obey and I’m at and the rest, as they say, is history.

Donna Hanson: Wow, you know, sometimes you dip your toe into the water on something and then you decide that. That’s for you.

Braith Bamkin: Yeah. Well, I mean, my father said to me when I was probably in my 30s. My father is a chemical engineer. He’s very… This plus this equals that he’s the guy that I opened the box and read the instructions and then landed on the guy that reps, the box open shots they caught in the puck and like I have this work. So, we’re very different, but my dad said to me.

The reason that you’re so successful is that you really understand how to engage with people and he said as a kid. When we had family functions and events. You are always going around making sure people had drinks, people would take for each other. Making sure that are connected. You are always very concerned the people were comfortable with each other side, you’ve always been a networker so I went, Wow, that’s cool. So even as a kid, he recognized that

Donna Hanson: Oh, wow. Hey, the consummate into host. It sounds like you know, before we get on to referrals. There’s one other thing that I want to ask what do you, what do you think has been the major reason why the BNI on business networking international concept has been so successful because it’s a global brand, right.

Braith Bamkin: Correct, yes, it’s in. I think now 74 or 75 countries we have currently 270,000 plus members around the globe. It’s been going for 36 years this year. So, a long time but like most businesses Donna.

If you have a system and you follow the system, you get an outcome. And if you repeat that system and you become an expert at the system, you get a better result. So BNI all BNI is you’re buying a system to use in your business to marketing tool. So, it’s the same as you would buy zero to do your books.

And if you’re you keep paying a subscription to zero, you get access to zero. Man is the same thing, but with BNI we are teaching people how to build relationships and the beauty of it is that no one at university or school teaches us how to build trust and as you would know trust is the cornerstone of any relationship.

And often people go into premature solicitation is a word we like to use in here and I where people go straight from the high Donna, nice to meet to do you want to buy my widget. You’ve all been to one of those events where somebody started that you’re in the corner going. Whoa, hey, we’ve just met. And I know a lot of people don’t understand that. So, we teach people how to go from what we call visibility through credibility into profitability.

Donna Hanson: Okay, so let’s talk about the concept of referrals, because I’m sure a lot of our viewers or listeners, um, you know, broadly, maybe have an understanding of in a broad sense water referrals, but I just want to make sure we’re all on the same page. So, could you define that for us.

Braith Bamkin: Thanks, Don, I think it’s important to identify that, because it is a big difference at a lot of people talk about the leads. You’ve heard the leads before and referrals are some people use those terms interchangeably.

But they’re very different. So, a lead would be if I ran you up and said, Donna. I was eating a barbecue on the weekend and my colleague wants to buy your widgets. Here’s his phone number ring him up.

Hearing up my colleague, he said, bright told me to give you a call, you want to buy my widget. And he goes, wow. Who are you, and why are you calling so, there’s no engagement from me to that person, that person wasn’t expecting your call. It wasn’t set up. It’s a cold call I could give you the yellow pages or for young, young people wouldn’t know what Yellow Pages of Google and you know, that would be the same thing, whereas a referral requires three people and those three people must have interaction between each other.

So, if I see my mate at the barbecue and I say you’ve got it. My friend has a referral is simply solving someone’s problems. My friend says, I’ve got this problem. I got, ah, Donna Hanson sells widgets and they’re going to serve your problem and fix your problem now.

Would you be okay if I introduce you to Donna Hanson and when would be a good time for her to give you a call, which preferred email you and so, I’ve set it up so I introduced you I’ve told him that you’re going to solve his problems.

Braith Bamkin: And that your widgets are going to make his Needs, I probably have edified you in that conversation as well. And then I’ve made a clear introduction of when the introduction is going to happen by phone or email and then when you call you got. Hey, I’m Donna Hanson. I’ve got my widgets to sell you because Dr. Bryce told me you’re amazing. I’m really looking forward to working with you.

How soon can you fix my problem. So not a cold call it’s an it’s a warm introduction and there are levels of that and that’s a very low-level introduction, but it’s a referral and the high you get in the quality of referral. I high value referral might require may sign high, you need to make Donna. She sounds great. We just but let’s have lunch together when we’re out of the lockdown. Sit down.

And have lunch together, and I’ll introduce you, Over lunch. So, I’ve taken the time out of my schedule to sit down with the refer and the referee to make that relationship happen now do you recommend going to close that sale.

Donna Hanson: You’d like to think so.

Braith Bamkin: Pretty much like this thing. So, whereas if you call these blood gap and go, I’ve got my widgets. He’s never heard of you, not that. Not that the calls rates, very small.

Donna Hanson: So, can I ask a question about that totally slightly off track. Why would somebody do referral like that. What, why would you do an any introduction and say, come to lunch and I want to introduce you to what motivates people to want to do something like that.

Braith Bamkin: I am so glad you asked. And this is not a set up, but this really is a very important part of the referral process. So, when I introduce you to my friend, what I’m doing is I’m transferring trust to you, between you and him so he and I have trust you and I have trust.

And it’s a transference of that trust between the two of you that implicit. So even though you to have never met and done business. It’s that level of transfer trust that enables you to engage with each other off the bat. Because I say you’re okay. I say he’s okay you both trust each other and off you go. And the beauty of that is that when I help you
and I help my mates who looks good.

Donna Hanson: You do.

Braith Bamkin: And then what happens when I look good to you, what do you want to do the may

Donna Hanson: I want to help you.

Braith Bamkin: What’s been a while ago.

Donna Hanson: He wants to help you too

Braith Bamkin: everyone’s are winner

Donna Hanson: Yeah, I okay now I understand. Not that I didn’t understand but I really appreciate the clarity, you know, and, and a lot of people get joy from that I know that I get joy from solving someone else’s problem. It’s not by selling what it is that I have, but by them going, oh my goodness, I hadn’t even thought of that.

They say you know when you’re a kid, they say it’s better to give than receive, but as a kid you are thinking, well, I want to receive the Christmas presents daily, but as an adult. You find that when you’re giving the gift of a referral or you’re helping someone out. It seems you up doesn’t it.

Braith Bamkin: Does what in banner, the core philosophy of the organization is givers gain. So, we know that when people join BNI on the more they give from the get go, the sooner they received back but now in the corona crazy world that we’re in. One of the things that I have seen have has really helped people to lift themselves up is to help somebody else. So, I don’t know about you, have you ever done volunteering before

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely.

Braith Bamkin: Oh, I’ve done a lot of volunteering in my life and I’m sure like me when you volunteer with some with an organization. You put time and effort in and you expect nothing back and you get so much back, you get personal development back, you may get business opportunities back, you get relationships back, you cannot get I have found you cannot give enough to compensate for what you get back. I always leave a volunteering opportunity with so much more in my life.

In richness and fullness and it’s the same philosophy. When you help other people you’re just going to feel good about yourself. And obviously if you’re if you’re feeling bad about yourself and there’s a few people out there now that are feeling down in the dumps.

Go and do something nice for someone else expect nothing in return. And if all you get back is to lift your spirits high a lot of bad if

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So now, again, a lot of our viewers and our listeners and probably received or given a referral at some stage, but I’ve heard that having a process or a structure is important to get more referrals. Why should we have a process and, you know, don’t I just, you know, when I see an opportunity. Just throw it out there.

Braith Bamkin: That’s a good question. So, I just got back to me and my night. Let’s call him Dive at the barbecue and Donna, and you’ve got your widgets and let’s say I set this up and I started Dive.

You are doing to meet Donna. She’s got these great widgets eager to see dive I set it up, you may, and suddenly dive finds out the you only sell your widgets.

In Melbourne in the centre of Melbourne and you don’t sell widgets in Frank’s to knowledge along but he’s all his businesses ranks and in July.

You know how we talked about the transference of trust, suddenly, my credibility is diminished. Your credibility is diminished he’s frustrated with you. You’ve spent energy and effort meeting with him. He spent energy and effort thinking, Oh, this one’s going to solve my problem.

But it doesn’t. So, finding out about your business and the problems that you solve and how I make that introduction to the referral source is paramount to a great referral. Because if I just go down and sales. We just and she sells witches to everybody, but I don’t get the euro specialized which at Maker. And you’re only you’re only deliver within 10 kilometres of the city or whatever the case might be. Or, you know, if it’s a service.

Maybe, maybe you’re pitching at a very specific target market. And this is very key to what you need to know who your target market is so if you’re teaching me my target market is financial services and I send you to Dive and Dive works in the Health and Wellness industry. And that’s not your gig, you know, again, it’s an it’s a misfire so no one’s a winner. In that case, and I look if that happens, and that happens quite a lot. What I would say to somebody is go back to the person that gave you that referral and say bye. Thank you so much for thinking of me.

But when I spoke to Dive, I found out that Dive’s in the professional’s finance industry. I did. You know, I only work in the health and wellness industry. And so, these are the kind of people I work with. And these are the kind of problems that I saw.

So even getting a bad referral is a great teaching opportunity. So, not, not, this is actually the band for or even getting a referral. That doesn’t generate business is a massive teaching opportunity. And I’m going to go, Wow, I didn’t know that about you and in then I’m even more likely to want to look out for somebody that you are going to do business with because the more information I have about you, your product and your service, the better that referral is going to be when it comes so

Donna Hanson: I’m guessing that the key to being able to get good referrals is to build the relationships. So, I know you know me, we understand what each other does. You may not necessarily have purchased my services. I’m using myself as an example.

But you understand the problems that are sold. So, and then I might say to you, hey, brave. I’m looking for referrals to organizations who are looking for training for this sales teams. So, suddenly, you’re niching down and you’re able to go. Okay. Donna works with sales teams.

Braith Bamkin: Absolutely. And I think what happens is as your relationships deepen with individuals you start moving from what we would call Reactive referrals, which is mean David the BBQ to proactive referrals. So, you’ve taught me that you work with sales organizations, you’ve taught me that you work in a specific type of area. You given me a lot of information that I can edify you with when I find somebody in that sort of organizations. I can start the conversation and you take and the deeper, we have a relationship, the more information I can have to help that referral come through and then it becomes a proactive referral.

I proactively go and look for referrals for you and I tend to be much higher value than reactive referrals were active referrals is, you know, if you’re obviously not. But if you’re a plumber and dive needs plumbing job and his bathrooms leaking. That’s a great reactive referral. There’s nothing wrong with a reactive referral. But I proactive I’ve gone out to look for somebody in my network that you wish to relate to that’s a high degree of relationships that takes time and that’s a function on things we do well

Donna Hanson: Always going to say, I’m guessing I don’t. You don’t rock out to a networking event flesh out because we’ve all seen that happening or somebody just comes to the networking event. And that’s all they seem to want to do

Braith Bamkin: Yeah, networking events, a great first started, so most networking events. People go so, I always ask people in training. How many of you, God and when networking event to buy someone, no hands go up? How many of you go to a networking event, hoping that somebody is going to buy your product or service everyone’s hand goes up.

So, the disconnect there is no one’s going to buy but everyone’s going to sell someone’s going to be unhappy. But if you go there with the knowledge that you have an opportunity to make potential new relationships that you can faster over time. Then you go with a very different approach.

Donna Hanson: And I’m guessing to its less some stressful if perhaps you’re not, you don’t feel like you’re a sales person.

Braith Bamkin: Yeah, absolutely. So, I, I always say to anyone that goes when they’re working event and Ben is not necessarily a networking event. It’s a referral organization but networking events.

At the end, there’s a lot of them when we have a lot of opportunities.

I said the best way to go into that and not feel icky and leave feeling a key is to go in there and act like a host. So how would you be if somebody was coming to your home to the same thing. And that’s the precursor to a good relationship, you might only find one person that you
choose to have a relationship with after that meeting, but one every month for a year is 12 new meaningful contacts. Let’s give you 11 for one will give you a month off for Christmas.

But let’s just say, you know, it turned out to be half of that would five or six good solid relationships that you invest some time in every year, build your network.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, so it’s important that we have a tight idea of how to communicate what we’re looking for in a referral, otherwise you could get just about anything. Is that right,

Braith Bamkin: Absolutely. I think it starts with this is me, I’m a marketer. I have a background in marketing ads, my, my absolute passion. These people in business.

I think the reason most people in business file is not because they’re not good business people, it’s because they don’t have a clear target market. And if you don’t know who you want to do business with. How am I going to find your referral, because you can’t explain it to me? Has anyone going to find the referral and taking it out of the referral environment on or if you look at all your marketing your print your collateral your social all that everything that you do needs to speak to your target market. And if you’re not clear on your target market. And my favourite thing is when I asked people. Who is your target market? I got everyone that needs an x, y Z. I’m like, Great Well, this is an opportunity. We must help you type that data and the more specific you get about your target market, the easier it is to refer its counter invites, but it is absolutely without question. The one thing that people who get very high value referrals will side is the riches of the American side, it’s the riches are in the niches. Richest of Indonesia sub regions around the nation’s we would satisfy for the more specific you are, the easier it is to refer you, and the higher value, you will generate from referrals and from your business. Because when you are very clear and you’re one of the only people that does that.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. Okay so clarity on who you serve. Who is your target, target market is important?

And why. Yeah and why. Okay, okay. So, in your experience, what sort of things stop people from getting more referrals. Is it that target market, you mentioned, obviously, if you don’t know who it is.

And you’re selling to everybody. But are there other things that you see that’s sort of, you know, stop people in their tracks.

Braith Bamkin: Yeah, for sure. So not having a clear system. So, if you’re going to have referrals as a marketing strategy, you need a CRM system. So, if we have had a meeting, I need to document what’s happening there. Are you can have a CRM system that’s an Excel spreadsheet. It doesn’t have to be. It doesn’t have to be a you know a big fancy system. But if I’ve had lunch with Donna and Donna mentioned to me that she’s got
two puppies and a frog at home for her pets and write that down to Donna has two puppies and a frog. And the next time I made with you, I’d say.

Two puppies and a frog again at summits our relationship. So, I need to have notes. And then as we get deeper into our relationship and I become clear that you work with sales people.

And then I then we move into what kind of company’s organizations, you’d work with and one of the best tools that we have in BNI and I that anybody could use. You don’t need to be in BNI it to use this is be clear about who your past 10 customers are and be able to tell the story of how they came to you and the problem you solve and the journey took them on. So, if I was in a referral relationship with you and I had 10 customers like it’s I don’t let me tell you about this latest customer that came to me. This is the problem that I had this is how we looked at that and this is the resolution we got for that you will be armed with the knowledge because you know what stories sell

You know, you’re a public speaker, you know, this more than anyone else when we’re on the public speaking game, but your story, sell people remember stories. I can’t remember the details. You know, I made a lot of people, a lot of industries. I don’t remember that’s the stuff about their business. I remember the stories that they tell so

Donna Hanson: So, so that makes sense. So, having some ideas around how you’ve helped people and being able to bring those out as stories, rather than inanimate objects such as I sell widgets.

Braith Bamkin: Yeah. Well, a lot of people also use industry speed and it’s very disengaging to have industry speak coming at you. And here’s the thing anyone in financial services can bore you to death with the industry speak and they love it because I think they’re really interesting.

To me that, but other financial people there fabulously interesting but if you speak to me and you use industry speak. I don’t get it. So, I can’t sell that to somebody else to tell that to somebody else. But if you tell me how you’ve helped a client, I get that. And I can lie that I like to repeat your story.

Braith Bamkin: And that’s why I can edify you

Donna Hanson: And that sounds a bit more real, doesn’t it?

Braith Bamkin: Yeah, yeah. Because we can all carry a story with us and repeat it.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So that’s quite target market and watch and having stories are two important things

Braith Bamkin: And a system of follow up.

Donna Hanson: And a system of follow up. Okay. Do you have a couple of other ideas or strategies?

Braith Bamkin: I do sitting next to me on my desk. And the call pulls something out. I went to India, just before lockdown bought off one of those streets sellers hundreds of these cards little card with a beautiful little painting inside the book. I don’t know if you can see that through the screen, but it’s a beautiful hand painted

Well, you probably can’t see it, but it’s a hand painted on a lake. It’s stunning and I have this sitting next to my computer. I’ve got about 80 of them left how pile of these Mandela tents. That way it stands guard to $1 to $1 I just bought some all the other day. I’ve been sending stamps to see if you are sending cards as. Thank you. So even if you have just had coffee with somebody for the first time.

Saying, thank you for your time. I really enjoyed meeting you and then give them something now. It doesn’t have to be a thing. It can be a really simple thing like after meeting with you. I thought about this book that I had read so write the name of the book in there or after meeting with you, I realized I’ve seen a great article that I thought was beneficial for you or I saw a great zoom meeting that’s coming up or makeup or I thought about somebody else that’s doing something similar to you. Have a look at their website so doesn’t have to be significant. If we had a really high value. Meaning, then we might, I might give you a book or you have a whole pile of books, but they’ve so over there but I might send the book to somebody and I’d say, hey, this books really helped me. I thought this would be great for you. People just cannot believe that they get something in the mail.

And if it’s a high value relationship if they get a book in the mail. They love it. I also use send out card. If you know the 10 cards concept but I use that for all our member engagements as well so I send out send out cards. To people in the membership, but I also use that as well to other people that are might meet my zoom in that. So, it depends on who they are, but I will have a sentence in that card or a handwritten card and make an effort of doing that. You’ve got to also write in your CRM system or your Excel spreadsheet that you’ve done it because you will forget and everyone gets one goes, Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for my card use the dollar 10 and it took me two minutes to write

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So, it’s just about being thoughtful because I guess you never know where a conversation is going to go lead and really, what you’re doing is just going, well, you might not have something for me right now because often what happens is people are going out there, networking, they’re looking for referrals, because they’re desperate and speed, like if you’re looking for a date, you know, all I can imagine, you know, I’ve been married for nearly eight years. I think about that for a minute.

We’ve been together for 20 years. My husband and I, and you know you got to go out on a date and go hey, I look at you. You want to get married.
So, it’s just about, you know, nurturing the relationship because once that person may not buy your product or service they could know somebody who does

Braith Bamkin: You don’t know who I know and it takes time for that to happen to happen. I see it all the time. In fact, I’ll tell you a quick story. I saw a couple of years ago. And one of our chapters, a member standing up and hit stood up for six weeks in a row, asking for a very specific person. He wanted to meet and one day a visitor was there and she said to that guy. After the meeting. You do know the president of your chapters wife went to school with that guy’s wife.

And, you know, how would you know that because that’s not something that would come up. So, the visitor saw that she told this guy. He went to the presence and your wife knows the wife of the black that I’m trying to get them. It turned out to be a really fantastic referral, a very significant dollar value referral. But no one knew that and you just don’t know who people live.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, yeah. It’s some it’s just like you said, give us getting the law of reciprocity. I know very early in my career I learn about that. So now I’m conscious to The Times rice new I reckon we could probably talk for hours.Or

So, well, we, we looked at, let’s just summarize what we spoke about. So, it’s about being clear on who your target market is and knowing what you want to sell. Being able to tell some stories to give examples about what you’ve done and also having a follow up sort of system and even creating simple things to continue the conversation or create the engagement, a bit more beyond the initial mailing civilians, a card.

Or maybe even just an email or a book depending upon the depth of the connection that you you’ve made and sometimes too and I get shown the same you meet people and you go I’m not feeling the vibe, you know, and then other people, you just be lot. Boom. We have you been all my life. We just see so much connection because there’s a values alignment. So not everybody, you’re going to meet with you’re going to have a values alignment. We bet it’s important that you know all your relationships.
Conducted with dignity and respect because you never know who that person knows

Braith Bamkin: Correct.

Donna Hanson: We’ve all seen those movies where somebody upsets the receptionist and then the big we never want to talk to the person who are

Braith Bamkin: Absolutely. Yeah, because you don’t know who I know and you don’t know how you are upsetting may is going to affect all the relationships in your world. So, you know, I always best to

Braith Bamkin: Be open and generous, generous of spirit and generous and kind and look to help other people that really is the foundation of success in referrals, but in life and in business.

Braith Bamkin: Helping people

Donna Hanson: Absolutely, absolutely. And these days with technology, the way it is back in the old day you know if you had a bad experience. You might tell 10 people. But now, if you had a bad experience you tell hundreds of thousands through social media. So, you want your interactions, whatever they resulting to be have people walking away feeling positive about that interaction. Don’t you

Absolutely awesome. So, a break. If any of our listeners or viewers want to get in touch with you to explore how they can get your help, or Perhaps curious about BNI were should they go

Braith Bamkin: So, jump onto the BNI Melbourne Central website which has bnimc.com.au or if they want to specifically get in touch with me braithbamkin.com and you can follow the links to find me.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. Braith thanks so very much for your time today and he was sites on referrals. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Expert Insights until next time this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week

In the last eighteen months online meetings and events have been part of everyday life for most people in business.  After a few months, Zoom fatigue set in and a lot of people found themselves more exhausted by online meetings than they had ever experienced in face to face environments.

It’s hard to keep the energy up when the meetings you have seem endless and boring.

Enter this episode’s guest Warwick Merry.  

With over 10 years in IT, two degrees, and a passion for improv, singing and acting, Warwick Merry’s world of hosting live events changed in 2020 when COVID struck!  

With an end to live events, Warwick shifted his business online.  

With 20 plus years’ experience hosting conferences and events combined with his performance background and understanding “studio” environments, Warwick KNOWS what it takes to get and keep audiences engaged “through the lens” of technology.

In our conversation, I chat with Warwick about what you can do to make your events or everyday meetings productive and professional whilst keeping your audience engaged.

To find out more about Warwick, visit www.warwickmerry.com

Donna Hanson: Hello and welcome to this Expert Insights episode I’m Donna Hanson in this expert insights episode we speak with online event host producer and MC Warwick Merry. Warwick is a certified speaking professional CSP a certified virtual presenter CVP and past national president of professional speakers Association of Australia. He has evolved into an online host an online event producer and MC Warwick also spent over 10 years working in IT industry so he knows how important it is to take advantage of the benefits technology offers we’re not letting it take advantage of you. He’s got two business degrees of Bachelor applied science in computing and a Bachelor of Business accounting. He worked for an IT outsourcing and consulting company and in 1999 Warren took advantage of an opportunity and started his own business. Merry mentality where he worked with organizations on cultural change team activation and started his keynote speaking Korea. Fast forward 20 years and now he has a different business and different life I always chuckle. When I say that, and a different modality for presenting along the way works discovered his passion for hosting events and has become known as one of the top 10 professional MCS in Australia.

In 2020 the world of wine events change due to the covid-19 virus. He’s worked with theatre improv and singing meant that he had the background knowledge on what it took to create a good studio environment. As well as what it took to engage an audience through the lens. His mighty history man. He became adept in a common conference platforms, very quickly, and his clients loved that he could help them design and build sessions run the technology and host it as well as baby online MC a true all in one experience. So let me welcome Warwick Merry. Hi, Merry. Welcome.

Warwick Merry: Super happy to be here. That’s one heck of an introduction. I’m always having flashbacks after going back to that.

Donna Hanson: What’s its quite heavy? I know, Aside from this, you and I are really good mates and you know we both have like a mutual admiration society for the things each other is doing in the adaptations. We’ve all had to make as a result of coven so um. Let’s get this show on the road Warwick and you have a pretty impressive background. I’m sure there are so many organizations around the world really struggling with the shift online from in person events. What have you noticed?

Warwick Merry: It’s really interesting to me technology like fire is a brilliant tool, but a poor master. And too often, people go over the technology does that without saying, No, no, you got to drive it. So sometimes they are at the limit of the technology or they don’t know enough about it. So they might have an older computer and they go, oh, we’ll just use this particular software really commonly zoom and they’re like, well, how come I can’t do all these things, but your computer’s not powerful enough or you don’t have the right camera setup or the right sounds that are, but you haven’t there is some few subtle things that you need to do. And then there’s the whole your behaviours are different your behaviours are set up for face to face. Then he changed for online. So there’s lots of little things you’ve got to do to get all your ducks in a row.

Donna Hanson: Oh, absolutely. And I’m sure we’re going to come up with some really great insights ideas and conversation as we go along in our short time together today. And I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen some interesting and pretty big mistakes. Presenting online and you’ve only got to look at some of the people that are being drawn in as experts in television in particular that backdrops and all that sort of stuff for
and I think there was one that did the rounds with a guy on the BBC and
one of these kids came into his office as he was doing a live interview and the wife’s come in and she’s crawling on the floor and grab the child and drag the child out and shut the door thinking, nobody could see what’s the biggest mistake you’ve seen people make when presenting online.

Warwick Merry: I love that footage. I love that footage for so many reasons. One of the main things I love about it is it shows that we are now ready for authenticity. Because the reaction wasn’t. Oh my god. How unprofessional. Is that the reaction was oh yeah. Been there, done that, know what that’s like. Like the number I have a saying that it’s not a real zoom call until you see a cat’s behind because the number of times you see a cat walk in front but for that. It’s really authenticity and that was had that diet and he’s old family come back on for an interview afterwards to talk about that situation. So what I think is real. What I love about this technology is we are allowed to be ourselves. We don’t have to try me sometimes. And you’ll see that if you look at news anchors, how they used to be, to have are now there are a lot more relaxed and lot more you know, at home, even just the quality of footage that they’re using on TV new services. It is so low, like this they’re out of sync the words that in the voice don’t match, they don’t care anymore to zoom call people know, or it’s Skype or whatever. It’s more acceptable and there’s been a lot of mistakes and some of the basic mistakes are people not considering what their background is, or understanding that their cameras on just recently woman, for whatever reason, took a laptop to the toilet.

At a school and has since resigned from the school and it’s just there are some crazy mistakes and we talk. I used to be. You know when you’re in a live event or hey, don’t forget, and turn your microphone off if you go to the toilet. Well now, because your microphone. Your phone and your cameras, you find people take it everywhere. So we’re seeing more that we probably don’t necessarily need to see or people forget their microphones on and they say some inappropriate things there are so many issues. So basically its they just haven’t got the basics. Right. And typically, anything that goes wrong is all about the basics and making sure you get those right

Donna Hanson: So one of the things that I’ve heard of is screen sharing and people sharing things on the screen. You know structures in a group environment they’re sharing them a document or something and then maybe pull you know without thinking that they’re still sharing the screen going on to something else that that might not be something that people want one big scene.

Warwick Merry: Yeah, for sure. And it can be something as simple as your personal email and just knowing you know what your full email addresses or who’s been sending you emails, the recent American elections. Because they using Smart TV. Sometimes I had different ads come down and an ad drop down on a new service for Porn Hub like so there’s some weird stuff that goes on. But yeah, it really is.

Again, it’s making sure you understand how to use the technology and that you’re using it appropriately and you’re in control of it. And also when you make a mistake ego upsets made a mistake and you move on. Don’t let it flow you

Donna Hanson: Or define who you are on online or, yeah. Yeah, it’s like you make a wrong turn in the car, you go, well, I’ll go back and I’ll do that again, you know, so, isn’t it, that’s good. It’s being aware of some of those simple things and just being a little more observation or just all a bit more for that you don’t necessarily need to do with you in a physical meeting.

Warwick Merry: Very much so. And I heard a saying many, many years ago and I have a funny feeling it’s copyrighted. And so forgive me to whoever wrote a speech. Title, but it’s like elephants don’t bit but mosquitoes can kill and what better meaning of that is if there’s a massive issue like if your computer goes down, you’re going to know it, and you’re going to do everything you can to fix it. It’s all the little things. So all the little mistakes that you’re making that that will add up. So you want to try and have processes and I know you and I are both into processes and checklists and stuff. When I’m producing an event for client. I have a checklist, even if it’s just me in the control panel with all my computers. I have a checklist, even if its silly things like turn on the lights, because sometimes I forget. I’ve got three different lights that I use. And if I miss one of them. The looks not right. And I have sometimes if it’s a really bright day and I’ve got natural light coming in the window. I forget to put on the overhead light. You never cloud comes across. And I don’t have that on. It’s really noticeable. So it’s just simple things. And once you’ve got all those ducks in a row you’re less likely to have issues with it.

Donna Hanson: And I think you make a really good point. We often ashamed that everything we’re doing on the line is automatic and that we should be able to adapt and adjust. But like any sort of process. That you go through, you learn to drive a car, there’s a sequence of things. And after a while, it becomes habitual this sort of thing may eventually become habitual to people, but like anything if you don’t do something for a little while, even if it’s 2448 hours, you know, the software can change you know you’ve got in your office or whatever. So checklist is really helpful.

Warwick Merry: On the number of times of for some reason. And it happens sometimes with my audio and video is that it just doesn’t work out, or one or two, and I can’t for the life of me work out what it is. So I have to turn it off and then turn it on again and then it works but it’s and
it’s just this is technology. And so part of my process now is the big before everything I turn it all off. And I turned it all on. So, at the very least, it’s clearing out buffers its current fixing because I run quite a complex system, it just it just gives me a reset point that I can work from. And look, it doesn’t just happen to the, the smallest single operator happens to the big boys. I was hosting an event recently.
For a big organization that had paid big money for big outside AV company. And halfway through the mainstreaming unit which they paid tens of thousands of dollars for just decided, yeah. I think it’s time to reboot and just rebooted itself. And you could hear the squeals coming from the other room where the organizers were sitting, but we had you know we had prepared for that and we’re able to recover from that and move on. And if anything where I want to use it to edit a character of the event. So it was okay. And this is what happens is you’ve got a plan for it to not work, but it is understanding, it’s going to happen. It’s not if it’s going to happen. It’s when it’s going to happen.

Donna Hanson: Well, that’s sort of things happening in a live environment. Don’t say

Warwick Merry: Oh for sure all the time, God, the number of times that you know the overhead projector doesn’t work, or their microphone doesn’t work, or their lifestyle work or something goes wrong or something falls from the ceiling or, you know, what Happens?

Donna Hanson: You just a little sidebar, because you just got me thinking as you were talking about restarting everything, um, I don’t know about you, but I’m seeing people. I’m a stickler for being early. So if I go to a physical meaning I’m always there 5 or 10 minutes beforehand because you know I’m worried about got the right location, do I know where to park or, you know, what’s, what your approach to getting online is. How much earlier than a start time do you think it’s important you know I mean I know it’s a little different. As an MC but you know how much, how much early. Do you think people should get online to meetings or should they just come in? Why don’t the time

Warwick Merry: I love the concept and I’ve been living this all my life I’ve inherited from my father and it drives my wife crazy I rushed to wait so I’m the kind of guy who likes to be there nice and early, just in case. And that has served me well so many times. I’ll be going to the airport. Once I got a flat tire on the way and it took me 12 minutes to change that tire because I told myself about it. What it meant was because I had that buffer. I could still get there with plenty of time. And I wasn’t worrying about it and the kind of guy who drives on the top half of a fuel tank. By that I mean is, once it gets the half full. That’s when I fill it up. I don’t wait for fumes.

So when it comes to online events when I’m the host. I’m pretty much online. An hour beforehand 45 minutes if I’m a guest speaker or something. I’m typically they’re 15 to 20 minutes before it depends if it’s just me on camera. And I’ve been using my systems. I know it works.
So maybe 15 minutes, but if I want to test my slides and tested everything I’m doing its maybe half an hour so that that’s what it’s it depends on the size of the event as well so but 15 minutes minimum is, you know, and even for this morning, you know, getting ready for this recording, I was good to go. Beforehand, at least 10 minutes and before I jumped on

Donna Hanson: That’s good advice. Um, you know, as I’m sure you’ve seen the people that come into a meeting. And they coming in right on the time or just after and see embarrassment and the fostering they go through or, you know, they’ve missed out on a whole lot of information and they feel compelled to get you to fill them in.

Warwick Merry: Yeah, yeah. And look at, and I know for a lot of my events. It’s not only on my they’re half an hour, an hour earlier it’s I run a tech rehearsal two or three days beforehand. Because I want to, I want to know that I’ve got everything covered I want my clients and my speakers to know that. And even if I’m telling them information they already know. I don’t care. I’d much prefer to repeat it then have them not know and rock up on the day and go right so you’re sharing my slides I am I’m going to be slides for you.

And you know that’s embarrassing when that happens, and it can happen.
Or they’ll turn up and I don’t know how to share screen and then I’ve seen people do that as well. Although try and share it, but their computers updated. It’s a different version of Word or I use keynote and how do I look at myself and, you know, so there’s so many issues so
technical rehearsals are brilliant to just iron out those chunks and sometimes multiple technical rehearsals and then that way. Everyone’s happy. And it’s all about everyone being calm, because there’s enough stuff going on without anyone getting all fired up and technology if anyone’s not comfortable with technology. Technology just really riles people. And so it’s just a matter of just make sure everyone’s comfy.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, look I’m exactly the same when I’m hosting something for a client will always do a dress rehearsal. The week prior and allows them to be on, you know, half an hour beforehand if we, we’ve got a training program with clients that will usually be I’ll be online at our prior and make sure that our team members are online about 45 minutes beforehand. We asked people to come on 15 minutes earlier. All this is designed to make people feel relaxed and comfortable and I’m guessing from a meeting type perspective. If it’s a platform that you’re familiar with, then it’s like, it’s your team meetings that are regular in and out. And you’ll develop your own protocol around, you know what’s accepted and what’s not. So, you know, it’s about creating an expectation that you know, if its 10 o’clock, it means that everybody is in and ready to go at 10 o’clock. Not that we’re starting to log in at 10 o’clock.

And just being a bit more considerate about amazing timings and things like that. Because even though you can switch meetings with the click of a button in a physical sense, if you will, moving from meeting room to meeting room, you have to allow some time in between.

Warwick Merry: Very much so. And this is the thing. It’s, I’m a real stickler for starting on time timing is so important and so it’s just it’s a very simple boundary and people know with my stuff. I start on time. I might give them one or two minutes. To just final people coming in, but I will have started, I will be talking. It’s not dead air waiting, it’s me talking to them and saying hey we’ve got a couple more people coming online chat chat chat chat chat…… And if there’s, you know, no one likes back to back meetings and so it is that whole, like, hey, we only have meetings on the hour max is 45 minutes. So there is that 15 minutes to check your email. Check your messages have a drink water in water out. What are you going to do?

So these having that respect for your delegates or respect for people on the session. So that they have time for that. And in the same way that during if you got an all-day session. You’re going to have breaks threat and sometimes there are five minute break that I just stand up stretch move around. Get your body moving and other times as high as lunch go outside stand on the ground somewhere, get some fresh air, blah, blah, blah. So it is just understanding what your audience need. And what’s going to help them get the optimum value out of the session. You’ll running both physically, emotionally, mentally, and making sure you build that into what you’re doing and just because we can, doesn’t mean we should like just because we can do back to back meetings and change at the drop of a hat and be in different countries, doesn’t mean we should

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. So what are some tips that you, you could share to make advance or even a simple online meeting more engaging and more sort of, you know,

Warwick Merry: So I’m going to start with what I call the Holy Trinity all of the three things. You got to get right. You’ve got to get these right and I’m going to start and then they are in an order of importance and some spare they’re coming in reverse order important. So number one is you got to get your composition right so for example, if you look at my composition. By that I mean how I’ve made up the shot. So I’ve got this book bookcase over here that it’s just, it’s only in about a third
my head’s near the top of the screen with a slight gap in it, and I am Central. So that’s I’ve composed it. So this something. It’s a bit interesting but not too much. Now my over the last 12 months, this has changed. Massively. I used to have a big bookshelf there that was full time and I’d see people sort of going at this time to read my bookshelf.
I’ve put a bit of colour light behind me, that I can change just for a bit of interest. And it also helps define around its backlighting so defines around my shoulders. And around the back of my head. So it’s just it’s a bit better look. So that’s the composition. So the couple of things you want to be aware of. One is the rule of thirds, so anyone can just go to YouTube and look for Rule of Thirds video and you’ll see the screen is in these rule of thirds and you just want to make sure you’re occupying so if I sit here.

That’s okay. But if I’m sitting here with my head dead centre down like that. It just looks a bit weird. So, it is about on I’m going to stand up. Here we go. Oh, that’s one thing I don’t like is when I lean forward my bald patch shows don’t like that. So get your composition right that’s the first one of the Holy Trinity. The second one is get your lighting right so again, there’s a thing. Just Google it three point lighting and so I’ve got lighting directly above me. I’m in a studio aka spare bedroom has an older style house with an external libel, not a, not a, what do they call them.

Warwick Merry: Instead lights.

Donna Hanson: Lights. Yeah.

Warwick Merry: Yeah, not a down line and so I’ve got a diffuse that just as a normal light show which a diffuser is. So it has a nice spread on the ceiling. I had the light behind me and I’ve got a great being LED light in that corner and I have the window on this side and I have a second set of lights, because I do quite a bit of work out of the US and sometimes Europe and so when it’s not for me. I have that light set up in to replace the window. So you get your getting a little bit of shading. So it’s not full line, but you’re just its well-lit. You can see me clearly I’m not I don’t have a light behind me. So I look like I’m a criminal, though, does my identity known, you know, being backlit. So that’s it. And the third, the third and the most important is get your sound right. You got to get your sound right. So I use a shotgun mic, which is just in front of me. And so, it picks up my sound pretty well.

Donna Hanson: It up and just show us

Warwick Merry: I’ll do one better. This is the little microphone. Now this is a spare because I have to. These are road video Mike me this one I got from my phone. They specifically designed for phones but within adaptive cable. I go 3.5 mil one That would be my head of marketing and hindered by this is one of the joys of and it used to be people who don’t let people hear your dog back but now it’s just everyone. Oh yeah, you’ve got a dog. It’s amazing you have got to go here’s my dog and they pick up the dog and it’s all wonderful I say yes. So this microphone which pretty much, it does not filter out the dog, as you know, but it’s picking up most of my voice here. So a little shotgun mic is great.

Now a lot of people ask me, what’s this microphone? It’s not about the microphone. It’s about the room. So if you’re in a polished floorboards or tiled office. No microphone is going to stop the echo, you’re going to get. So I’ve got a carpeted floor. I’ve got some sound. Absorbing tiles phone tiles on my walls around behind me. It’s very behind the camera and I have to be honest, I have my cupboard door open, because that’s where my clothes are in there. Because that’s a nice sound down there as well. And so that just stops a bit of the echo that can happen. So then get those three things right and that’s a really nice foundation the other thing that’s really going to it. So those three things again. Number one is your shot composition. Get that right and also make sure it’s stable. I’ve got a Mano pod that holds my camera but haven’t solid stable so sharp composition. Number two is get your lighting. Right. And number three is your sound and that’s the most important get your sound right. It’s worth taking time to get your sound right. If your visions, a little bit off. Will put up with it, but it just sounds off we’ll hang out. It’s that simple. So, those, those that holy trinity. And the other thing that really helps you engage look down the barrel of the camera.

You’ve got look smack down the barrel of the camera. Now, when you’re on an online session. Often it’s easy to try and look at the people and you’ll do this. And but when I’m looking at the people are not engaging with you. So you’ve got to train yourself to look at the camera and we’re looking straight down, and rightly eyes because that’s how you connect with people, even though I’m not actually looking at you, but I’m looking at you.

Donna Hanson: Yep. Yep. Okay. And so if people are in like a business environment. They just need a meaning, etc. These are still things that that you can address. So it might be as simple as when you position your laptop or the camera of your computer so that you have the natural light coming in so that you will live because there’s nothing worse than you looking at somebody you explaining something in meaning or client page and you just, you know, one half of the person’s face is sort of in darkness, it’s hard to read.

Warwick Merry: Yeah, basically what you’re after is no distractions and that’s what getting the composition and the lighting and the sound is all about. It’s not going to make you a better presenter, but it’ll give you less distractions and that’s what it’s about presenting. There’s a whole other realm of being a better presenter. But there’s, it’s about getting rid of the distractions and the same way you want to look down the barrel of the camera, but you need a camera at eye level.

So you’re not sort of looking down, you know, the number of times people will just leave their laptop on the desk. And people are looking down. So you’re seeing more chins than ever before and more nasal hair, then you really had the desire to see. So, it is about getting really many of those distractions, making it effortless and it’s all about making it easy. I love that concept of make it easy, make it easy to watch make it enjoyable to watch make it so you know all these things won’t make you better. But it’ll take away the barriers.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so really good information there. But what benefits. Apart from the obvious. Do you see of online versus in person events, are there any things that you can do in person that you simply can’t do one more.

Warwick Merry: Look there’s horses for courses. And don’t get me wrong, I love a face to face events in there. There’s the, the energy in the room is amazing and meeting with people is fantastic but there are certain things that you can’t do. And at the moment. There’s a certain level of safety that you can’t guarantee it Australia’s fairly good, but other places, not so much. And so this online is really with us for some time, geography, no longer becomes an issue. Because you can go anywhere, all you ladies power and as a relatively good internet connection.

And so sometimes that can be challenged, depending where you live, but those the foundation. What I like about online delivery is that it’s to me more intimate because if I’m addressing a room of 300 I’m really only talking to the first three rows, maybe four and anyone beyond that is either in the dark, and I can’t see them or they’re just a small head way down the back but when I’m presenting to 300 people online. We’re all face to face. We’re all we’re all got the same rights. We’ve all at the same perspective. And I can flick through my screen and I have mine. I use zoom the most of all my technologies for meeting.

And I look at 50 at a time so I can flick through and I do and I interact with people and I use their names and I play with them in a way, you cannot do online so it cannot do face to face. So these far more intimate in that manner. And it is also more of a challenge because you’re not in the room, getting all the energy. So, therefore, you’re getting you know the room, getting the energy. So you’ve got to provide more energy. And so really what you’re doing is presenting alone, if that makes sense. So
it really looks at how do you use and contribute that energy or how do you get energy back from some of the other people who are there so that’s the kind of things that you got to really look at doing so.

Yay for me. I love it because it helps me engaged in a way and it was scaled that to do face to face is challenging. And it’s look and there’s the hippie grainy part of me that loves it for environmental reasons in that I’m not using up, you know, the carbon footprint of airplanes and driving the car and all that kind of stuff.

I’m, you know, good to go. My transit times 15 seconds from here to the kitchen. You know, there’s all these really cool things like that. So yeah, it’s here to stay. And also, you know, I love the fact that, you know, one of my major clients now is based in the US and they love working with me so geographies really removed as an issue.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. Absolutely. The only analogy I can think of that sort of made sense to me was the fact that it’s live television and when you are presenting online to a group of people. It’s like having a studio audience as you would a TV show. And then when you’re presenting and you’re not getting the energy

it’s a bit like presenting in an empty studios. So you might be doing like some of the sports panel shows on the news, the news doesn’t have a studio audience with if the whole. Yes, yes, clapping about all that they don’t have a studio audience, but it’s, it’s about extension awaiting who you are and spending your energy and your personality through the cameras so that you know, you’re, you’re really making an impact you know in much the same way as somebody in a meeting room just slouching in the chair has one impact to somebody who’s sort of leaning forward and listening to what somebody saying in a traditional meeting room so

Warwick Merry: Yeah, look. One of my underlying tenants when it comes to presenting regardless of your modality is you have to be yourself amplified. Now this day and age, we want that authenticity and, I believe, rightly so, I think, you know, people want your stories that I don’t want you to get up there and just say, how good am I, because we don’t care. So we, but we want yourself amplified. So we want your personality and so you can do that very well digitally and face to face.

But it is a different approach and my thing is for those who are effective. The most effective and delivering online. It’s not about creating a TV show. Because we now have audiences. Let’s face it, most people when you watch telly. You’re watching your TV with your phone in your hand. And you’re seeing something. Come on, and you go, Oh, who’s that actor. I’ve seen them before you after IMDB, or you’re watching face looking at Facebook or Printers or something as you’re watching telly. And, you know, never be able to go out with their friends. I spend half their time with their phone. And part of that is because they want to be involved. And so therefore we have an audience who don’t want to have it done to them, then when I’m done with them.

And technology allows that because you can be in this. Let’s say you’re using zoom, but you can use all these other services where you can be taking polls doing surveys sharing videos, blah blah blah outside where you are. And so you can use that kind of technology. So they’re involved in it. So even if it’s a pre-recorded session. You can involve the audience and I’d strongly encourage you to do that. That will be so much more effective and so much more enjoyable.

As you say, you know, panels can be really great because there’s energy for example now between you and I and that is I will do transfer through the medium of video that people will pick up on. So you can share that so
it really is, again, how we create something that’s going to be delivering value that keeps people excited about what we’re talking about. And can I can actually do something with.

Donna Hanson: That brings them to the next question, which I think we’ve sort of danced about a bit what elements of video meetings and video advance do you think people underestimate from that online versus in person perspective.

Warwick Merry: To me is one of the most undervalued elements is the chat box. To so many speakers on oh no don’t use the chat box. I find it distracting. So yeah, but it’s not about you. It’s for me the chat box is this is like, you know, when you go to a face to face, and you sitting next to a friend. And you’ll be just doing comments to each other or you’ll be writing notes so you’ll be, you know, and often it’s not related to what’s going on.

But it helps you recall it or it just locks it in the or, you know, if the present is so boring and It’s just like they need to do that. They’re not, they’re boring or you need to be engaged in something so the chat box is fantastic. And I always encourage people use the chat box. In fact, when I start my sessions I was almost started in the chat box to get people using it. Just so that I feel I have permission and I’m a demon in the chat box so I love writing many, many, many comments in the checkbox and I have to control myself because a bit carried away.

Because it’s another way of interacting with what’s going on, whether you’re asking a question or referring it to someone else or cracking a joke about what’s happening.mIt’s a very humanistic thing. So I like it. And as long as it’s respectful, you know, heckling although if you’re running online comedy session. Maybe it was appropriate, but it’s, you know, horse of God, but I really liked the chat box. I find that is valuable because you if you’re not letting them use the chat box. They’re going to go to Facebook Messenger WhatsApp or something else and be chatting anyway because that’s possible.
So getting make them part of it and the relational in every recording afterwards. So you can go back and address some of the questions.

Donna Hanson: I know I love window am doing particularly webinars, where you know that there’s a lot of information being impacted, but you want that collaborative paste the chats, great, you know, I’ll ask people, where they’re from, put where they are geographically and I usually joke about how I don’t mean what room in the house are you when you know it from a geographical perspective where I you lived why are you in, you know, what’s the weather like, you know, just things like that that make people feel like, you know, this is about me being part of this experience, and it’s not about you telling us whatever it is that you’re going to be sharing with us, but it’s a dialogue, it’s communication.

Warwick Merry: Yeah and that gets back to what I said before, you know, they want it to be done the wisdom and not to them. So the other tool that I think is really powerful is breakout rooms. Or if the software you’re using doesn’t have breakout rooms, but it allows you to have smaller rooms or functions or networking tables or whatever it is.
They’re brilliant and I use breakout rooms extensively when I do a lot of my work and I like to keep them to nice small groups, I’m talking four or five that way everyone gets a chance. If you got seven or eight two or three people can just sit back and so I want everyone involved. So three or four seems to work really well.

And often, I’ll find is people come back and I’ll give them 10 minutes or something and they come back and I go there wasn’t enough time will having such a good conversation and I’m happy to leave them wanting more.
Versus going I’m stuck in the main room with the blog just telling me all these stories.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, and I don’t talk about that. What I’ve noticed with breakout rooms is total focus when you do have like three or four, there’s no Oh, who’s that walking past or is that somebody with some food. I really need to drink.mThere’s more dedicated attention then and it’s some he just sits in and you far more present, I think, then you are in a physical sense. So that’s something I really noticed that the
interactions, and the relationships that people build in breakout rooms seem to be much more powerful than men may have been in a physical sense

Warwick Merry: Very much so. And because often, you know, people say, Oh, my God. Well, I’m event for the networking and you end up talking to your friends anyway because it’s just a bit scary to break into the network.
But here you get dumped in a room with three other people you don’t know who they are. So you’re forced to do it. And what I found is people will be in the main room, but they want the camera off because they’re shy but in a breakout room, they’ll put the camera on and they’ll engage and so they’re, they’re enabling to do them because the technology has this wonderful thing have you feel a bit of a distance. So I’m not actually, physically in your face so I can actually open up more and so people are engaging and saying things and chatting and men is that they would never do face to face. It’s sort of like, you know, you get these keyboard warriors who go into Facebook and say stuff that would they never do it face to face. There is this level of anonymity that the technology provides that people love and it allows them to actually share more and I believe connect faster. We’ve had some wonderful results on some of the work that we’ve done with people truly connecting one of my clients. We’ve been running a session once a month for 12 months here in Victoria and these guys have never met each other and we did the final breakout last week actually. And there were tears from everyone because they felt so connected to people, even though they’d never met each other face to face. So this is the power of what the technology can do for us when it’s used appropriately. Yeah.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, so, um, you know, we’re running out of time. And I know that you and I, we could easily talk for hours. Well, what do you think moving forward will be different about events and I guess online meetings, from now on,

Warwick Merry: Yeah, for sure. So There’s this ideal of face to face meetings that people are going, can’t wait to get back to normal. That is no longer normal. Normal is now what we’re doing. So that’s going to have a face to face will happen, but I don’t think we’re going to have the massive face to face meetings of the thousands of delegates for some state for some time, we’re not going to have the internationals that we had for some time. Some airlines have said that they don’t foresee going to the UK or the USA until 2022 so you know that’s really going to stop things online will continue. We’ve really embraced online. And it’s really worked well for some, not for others. But for most it’s worked pretty well. So we’ll continue to do that kind of thing. The technology is getting better zoom had a massive grab on the market and more and more competitors are coming out, but it’s going to be hard to top of zoom because it is so easy to use it that ease of use it. Click bang works, talk to anyone about the Microsoft Teams or WebEx or GoToMeeting or GoToWebinar they just a bit clunky. And so, you know, zoom really is the King of the Mountain on that. But there are some specific other events coming on.
The one that there’s going to be a big focus on is hybrid. Now, I’m not a fan of hybrid. To me, it’s like Frankenstein’s monster, you get the worst of face to face, and an online shelf together. There are so much about hybrid that doesn’t work, and there are so many pitfalls. If you do it well and you spend the money and you have the big support, it can be gold. But if you’re trying to do it on the cheap. It’s an absolute mess. So I would caution you, you know, get some advice and I’m having to give some advice on what the pitfalls will be and sound is one of them, sending you can’t just, I will take a laptop.

Warwick Merry: And just shoved it, it just doesn’t work like there is so many issues that happen so because you want everyone to have an equal
experience. Another issue for events, these sponsors digitally, we haven’t been able to provide the same level of value that we can face to face. And what we’re trying to do is go what do we used to have. Well, let’s use computers to do that. So we mock up these digital booths and you click here for the video and click here to talk to a person, but the joy of sponsors at an event was you could just walk past and start a conversation about something. And if you didn’t want to talk, you can keep going. Whereas online. You know, if you click speak to a person they’re going to try and sell you something. And we hate to be sold to so we have to come up with a way where we can better support our sponsors and help them get good value for money.

Donna Hanson: Now, I know you’ve done production as well as MC and host online events. What does that involve when you say you do production?

Warwick Merry: So for me, what that means is there’s the briefing with the initial client, it’s looking at what’s the flow. And he’s looking at and giving advice on, you know, because you know you have a natural energy for an event where you’ll start with not maximum energy because you don’t want to come and go. Hey everybody you know, and scare they all off, but you’ll have a bit of something and then you’ll serve, maybe a li bit then you lift it right up and they let it blow, and then you want to end on a high. So this managing the flow of who your speakers, what your topics are particularly if there’s internals because it let’s just say the internal finance team you’re presenting, you’re not going to do that straight after lunch because people go to sleep. So you’re going to work at what’s the flow. You’ve then got to look at what is it that’s going to be the best way to convey that information is it PowerPoint is video, is it, how do we, if it’s so for example I’m producing an award ceremony in a couple of days. So it’s like, well, this is all about your team, we need to make it about your team, let’s have a short burst of introduction and video which shows how amazing it is photos of your team.

Let’s celebrate use them some PowerPoint to hold the spots. Then we’ll go to the CEO, we can spotlight multiple people as they’re being talked about. So everyone gets to see them. Doing that kind of thing. So a lot of button pressing it’s that combination of the AV team. As well as the host just making it all sort of run smoothly and then recording everything and, if appropriate, doing a bit of edits on the recording to get like a highlights thing at the end of it.

Donna Hanson: So it’s like being a movie producer and having a story isn’t? Where you know you talk about what’s the outcome that people want and it might be recognizing people because it’s an award ceremony, so
you know, what are the elements and being able to look at it objectively from the outside because we all know how easy it is for me outside looking in to go, hey, what about this, this and this and to somebody, though. Well, I need any of that.

Warwick Merry: And that’s it. And because I’ve now done so many live awards and then so many or live events in an online event. I have a better idea of what’s possible. And I also know what’s possible within the budget that you have. So it becomes that, how do we get the best value for money to showcase what we want. But also have an engaging, you know, we don’t want it to be so whiz bang theory that people are just sitting at home going. Can I press. Fast forward on this one.

Donna Hanson: I’ll read it. Oh yeah. That brings me to the next question. So we’ve talked about production and said, that, you know, and probably a lot of people watching this might be thinking about more larger scale conference events or you know, etc. Why should people consider having a facilitator or production person or an MC to support their events. While it might seem obvious to those big conferences. What are your thoughts about having production support or facilitator for internal meetings and dance team meetings, etc? In this new environment.

Warwick Merry: Look, it really depends on what you’re trying to achieve. Now often. For example, if you’re a sales manager and you’re doing a weekly sales team meeting. Chances are high, you’re not going to need someone else to, you know, help pull it all together. But if you’re doing a six monthly sales boost rara having an external person can bring in an extra level of energy it can bring that you’re not getting yourself 10 going as the sales manager. Again, here we go. Other guy. These the same old thing that so it just, it just lifts up a little bit.

And doing some of those the simple things that can be done main that you’re able to just add a bit of polish to it. So it just raises the bar a little bit and adds that professionalism or depth that you’re looking for. Having said that, I’m always a fan of having a host. Host is someone who’s just in control of everything that’s going on. And they are the focal point for it. And if something isn’t right. They fix it or they stole until it’s fixed and away they go. So it just means that we, no matter what else is going on. We know the host has everything under control. And if something goes wrong, or the speakers pretty boring or whatever or they’re too excited the host will get us back to normal. If that makes sense.
Because you know there’s some of those speakers would go off on there in your face and then you shouting and worry and they’re like, and that might be great, but if you’ve got the head of finance. Coming up next, or, you know, something like that. You need to be able to be calm down and let your energy drop to be able to get been beyond that same level to be able to go to the next. The next element. So it really is having that Captain of the pipeline, who just guide you. Where you going, and even emergency happens can pick up and run with it.

Donna Hanson: Yeah. So I also think, you know, based on what you’re saying is a level of reassurance that somebody called me back.

Warwick Merry: And I very much

Donna Hanson: On what it is that maybe to focus on

Warwick Merry: And a lot of the time for these events that the CEO or the sales manager or whatever they want to be seen to be part of a team. They want to be schmoozing and enjoying the connection with their team so it enables them to just do that and let someone else run the show. Now if you are going to do it internally, you need to have someone who is running the show. It may be the CEO, it may be the funny guy from accounts. But you’re going to make sure they know what they’re doing. And then they mitigate any of the risks that might happen.

Donna Hanson: Wow, there is so much that people should and could and need to consider about this new world moving forward. The ones that we’ve sort of been thrust into and we’ve just barely scratched the surface. So if anybody watching or video or listening to the podcast version of this was interested in exploring a conversation with you. Maybe they’re contemplating a hybrid event and wants somebody to talk them out of it or they want some help, producing an event where should they go first Warwick

Warwick Merry: Look, the best thing to do is just hit to warwickmerry.com
And I’m happy to have a conversation with them. And it’s really interesting you say that be talked out of a hybrid event I had someone call me. And talk about this hybrid event that we’re doing. And I said, and I just said how much and I said, I need to ask you a few questions first also drill down a few questions. And they said, well, we’ve spoken to three people and the others just said yes, you’re the first one who asked questions. Trying to find out what we’re trying to achieve and told us some of the problems that we were going to have a now that you’ve mentioned them yet. This is really going to not work for us. So they’ve now changed their mind and again because I only do about 50 people and I’m like, Why don’t you just get 50 people in a room get a bigger room so you make coven requirements or whatever. But there’s no value in sending them to three different parts of the state.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. Wow. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for your time today and few insights on virtual events and mailings it’s been great to get some information insights from you at thank you so much everyone for joining us for this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hansen have an amazing week

Despite the best of intentions, life can get busy and stressful. Soon we start to notice we aren’t as energetic, focused or alert as we used to be, leaving us feeling less productive, frustrated and looking for a quick fix.  

With fad diets, stress management apps and fitness gurus, it’s hard to get back to a place of feeling healthy, happy and energetic.

My guest in this episode, US based, national board certified health and wellness coach Laura Timbrook sees this all the time!  

Laura believes in practical, straight forward solutions to get results and she’s passionate about making sure an organization’s number one asset – its people, are provided with the best chance for optimal vitality, safety and longevity.

To find out more about Laura, visit www.lauratimbrook.com 

Donna Hanson: Hello and welcome to this Expert Insights episode I’m Donna Hanson in this Expert Insights episode we speak with wellbeing strategist Laura Timbrook. US Based Laura is a national board-certified health and wellness coach international speaker and well-being strategist in the manufacturing industry. She’s been in the corporate health and wellness field for almost 10 years and has worked for the small business and fortune 500 spanning several sectors. Still the manufacturing workforce hold a special place for Laura. Laura says our lives of cheap, easy to waste time on crazy diets exhausting stress management techniques and stress inducing fitness right regiments. I’m with you Laura

So simple, practical and straightforward perspective gets results. Laura believes employees are a company’s number one asset and we need to make sure they are provided with the best chance for optimal vitality safety and longevity looking forward to this chat. Hi, Laura, welcome.

Laura Timbrook: Hi Donna, thank you so much for having me.

Donna Hanson: But before we start, what exactly is a well-being strategist?

Laura Timbrook: Yes. So I work with organizations to strategize their employee’s well-being. Every company or industry. Everyone needs something a little specific and what works for one place doesn’t work for another place. So really, I kind of take a holistic approach at it and see what specifically a certain company or a certain industry needs. And then we kind of lay out what will work for their employees and it’s kind of growing and changing. So it might be leadership wellness coaching training or maybe just some, you know, sugar sessions and nutrition advice. So it really varies depending on the company in the industry.

Donna Hanson: Wonderful. So I’ve not heard of a well-being strategist before, is that an official title or just something you coined that you found was really meaningful to the industry.

Laura Timbrook: Yeah, so it’s something I kind of coined myself because you know being a board certified health and wellness coach. A lot of times it just looks as somebody’s going to come in and coach your employees. It’s so much bigger than that. And a lot of times when we think of health and wellness. We think of fitness and nutrition. And we forget about our relationships and our purpose and you know how sleep and movement and nutrition all play a role. So it’s much bigger than what we sleep and exercise or eat and exercise.

Donna Hanson: I guess a lot of people see each of those elements in isolation and what you do when you said you holistic is bring elements of all that together, depending upon what people’s organization’s needs are.

Laura Timbrook: Absolutely. And it’s interesting when I went through Nutrition school we had primary foods and secondary foods. And actually, our secondary foods were actually the foods we ate it was the primary foods which will our relationships and how our purpose and you know just how we carry ourselves. So a lot of that was so much more important than the foods we were eating and a lot of times it gets left out and it makes such a big impact in our overall well-being.

Donna Hanson: Well, I’m looking forward to hearing a little bit more about this as we have a bit of a chat today. So what was your well-being? So I just want to focus on the manufacturing industry. Is there something you still missing in the industry or

Laura Timbrook: 100% so I was in corporate health and wellness for think was eight or nine years. And every now and then you would be sent to a manufacturing facility, but you still went with your corporate attire. And your corporate knowledge and how their lunch, you know, breaks work, but you would go to the facilities and suddenly they don’t have an hour lunch break.

Laura Timbrook: And they have only two 15 minutes you know breaks throughout the day. Aside from their lunch. And it was just different. So
the information we were giving to the corporate world wasn’t translating over to our manufacturing workforce. And I was at a facility one time and the guy was coming through for health coaching and he actually put his hand up and he said, you know what healthy doesn’t work for me. And in that instance, I was like, you know what, this is what we’re doing. And we’re failing people we are failing a whole section of people And it’s not fair. I am a firm believer that everybody has the ability to be healthy. Just a lot of the information we’re giving doesn’t fit them. So once I heard that and really talking to a lot of other employees. I was like, you know what, and this is where I need to be. I need to be their voice of health.

Donna Hanson: Okay, interesting Yeah. And it makes perfect sense because a lot of people when they think health and wellness or health and fitness. They think of these buffs six-pack abs or these sleek hourglass figures in a bikini on a beach and them often feel unattainable. But I’m guessing you’re not looking to take people from here right over here in, you know, two or three weeks. It’s not like a crash diet, it’s a lifestyle change.

Laura Timbrook: Slowly and everything’s different for everybody, you know, in the corporate world mindfulness training worked really well they liked the term mindfulness in manufacturing when we’re dealing with our, you know, our workforce mindfulness is fluffy. It’s extra it’s, I don’t have time for that. You know, but when I started working with them and we talked about quieting our mind and being present and we talked about fishing or sitting in a hunting standard maybe going for a motorcycle ride and that moment of being present and listening to the natures of the whining of a motor they understood that. And suddenly the conversation change suddenly something that went from. Oh, there’s no way I’m doing that. And if somebody once told me. He’s like, I am not into pillows and twinkle lights. We went from pillows and twinkle lights to motorcycles and classic cars or hunting or fishing rods. And you know, we had such a big response. I actually had a guy tell me that whenever he has a rough day he keeps a fishing pole in the back of his truck and he’ll hit the stream and just cast a few lines before he goes home to unwind.

Donna Hanson: Wow, that’s amazing. So it’s sort of like just finding that thing that makes it click for someone isn’t it.

Laura Timbrook: Absolutely and that’s really what a well-being strategist, like myself, is really doing is that we’re trying to find what are you already doing in your life that we can just a minor tweak and make it a healthy habit. So creating a personal and emotional connection and then linking the health and wellness message to something that brings them to quote Marie Kondo and brings them some joy sparks of joy and makes them feel like

Donna Hanson: They’ll step in more to something, then something you know esoteric and that sort of sits in the ether, something that that is relevant to them. So they’re absolutely amazing, absolutely amazing. So what we’re talking about today, can we apply it to any business or industry.

Laura Timbrook: Oh my goodness 100% and, you know, in the corporate health and wellness industry. We have seen such a huge growth. Just over the last eight, nine years. I mean, on we’re on track to almost hit 100 billion dollars in the next few years within a health and the corporate health and wellness industry, it’s huge. We know it works. And I was just reading right before we got on this call. I just shared it on LinkedIn. It was an article by HR magazine in the UK that actually found that when they implemented in manufacturing health and wellness programs they watched their increase in productivity. So we know it works and it’s just trying to find what fits for their organization.

Donna Hanson: So I guess when they’re when people are healthier way happier when we feel good. Well, naturally, when we feel good. We perform better job we when we feel bad, you know, we tend to be weighed down and feel less happy and less productive. I’m guessing.

Laura Timbrook: Absolutely. And you know, when I talk to people. Anytime someone goes on a diet for the first week or two every time. And they always tell me I have so much more energy, and it is because once you clean up your diet dependent, no matter what diet, you go on generally You’re always going to get the first few weeks more energy. You’re going to feel like there’s an extra pep in your step. And you’re going to be more productive. And that’s what we want. We just want to make sure that whatever lifestyle. We’re living is sustainable, so we can keep feeling like that, rather than having those big highs and lows.

Donna Hanson: So we’ve already touched on how it increases productivity.
Why should businesses really be starting to focus on the health and well-being of their workforce? What are the added benefits, they’ll get aside from productivity, because people are feeling better. What other tangible sorts of things can businesses and individuals expect to see when we’re more connected with our health and wellbeing?

Laura Timbrook: Oh, absolutely. So you have a happier workforce. You ever workforce that obviously is going to increase the productivity, you’re going to have a workforce that stays and that’s huge. When we’re talking about employee retention. You put all this money into training your employees you want those employees to stay with you not go to your competitor. Right. We want that. We want our employees working you know longer in their lives. We don’t want them to go out on Disabilities and workman’s comp. We want them in our workforce. You know, and for a lot of that comes in safety, especially with manufacturing, you know, there was a study done that actually showed if you slept 6 hours at night for 11 days you will your productivity will be at somebody that didn’t sleep for 24 hours. Can you imagine someone being on a manufacturing floor that hasn’t slept in 24 hours.

That’s dangerous, you’re going to have injuries occur, but yet so much of our workforce only sleeps 4-6 hours. Wow. So we really need to make sure we’re having a workforce that’s putting in, you know, time sleeping and eating the right foods because it’s going to affect their safety and especially for the manufacturing industry that’s key as for a lot of other industries as well.

Donna Hanson: So you mentioned 6 hours. Well, that’s, amazing. So I’m guessing. The amount of sleep people have or need will vary depending upon the individual. It’s not like a generic 8 hours sleep that we’ve all been taught, is it?

Laura Timbrook: Well, it kind of is almost so the University of Pennsylvania, and there was this great book by Matthew Walker called why we sleep and the University of Pennsylvania really found it needs to be 8-9 hours of sleep, we require when they actually started gathering all kinds of individuals that said, no, I can work on 4 hours of sleep. And they texted their productivity and they really did need that eight hours so you know, where a lot of times in the US will say 6-8 hours. It really needs to be 8-9 hours and we see the same thing with weight loss which is crazy because I will have clients come to me. That all sudden they’re up a pound or two, but their sleep has been all over the place and they get that 8-9 hours of sleep, and they’ll drop two pounds, just by sleeping and it’s because our body is you know, optimize. It’s letting go of any retain water. I mean, you’re not gaining two pounds of fat, just by not sleeping. But you are retaining water, your body’s holding on to things because it hasn’t been given that rest and restore that it needs.

Donna Hanson: Hmm. Well, so, um, my first thought is, you know, is this expensive for organizations to you know to do this sort of thing to go. We’re all in for a health and wellness program.

Laura Timbrook: No. So it’s scalable. And one of the things that I’m going to give you a quick secret, and I know it’s for the US. So I’m not sure. So definitely call your insurance people for Australia. But in the US, we have what we call wellness dollars and a lot of organizations don’t know they’re out there. So this money has been put aside.
For your employees so you can run these wellness programs. And all you have to do is call your insurance company and find out. Have a conversation if these wellness dollars exist, what they can be used for and how you can use it. And, you know, just like everything. It’s scalable, you can have someone come in to do a wellness talk or a survey to see what your employees need or you can go full in and bring in leadership training and CWO which are chief wellness officers and really go full force. So, yes, that can get a little expensive, but there’s ways to scale it down so it could start for everybody.

Donna Hanson: And I’m guessing if you consider it an investment, rather than spend because at the other end, you should get retention, you’ll get more engaged and productive people. So it’s about, you know, working out.
What you prepared to invest at the front end in order to get the result at the back end. And then how do you measure and track that.

Laura Timbrook: Absolutely. And, you know, for the manufacturing industry, we are kind of at a critical pivot point our workforce is aging out and we’re not having the younger workforce coming in. So we are at a critical point, we need to be attracting the younger generations.

But we know the younger generations. They put so much focus on purpose family and wellness. Actually, I just read an article earlier this year that coined the millennial generation, generational wellness. Because they’ve been the first generation that spends so much more significantly on wellness. So if we want these younger generations coming into the workforce. We have to be attracting them. So if they’re going to go to corporate and they’re going to get all these fancy wellness benefits and manufacturing doesn’t offer it. They’ll never attract it so putting that money into create a sustainable practical wellness environment is key. If you want to bring in and retain those employees for younger generations.

Donna Hanson: Wow. Yeah. I hadn’t even thought of that. And, and you’re quite right. I know that you know anybody I know in that millennial sort of age bracket is quite focused on fitness wellness what they and sustainability, we say food which brings me on to the next thing I wanted to talk about which was food. Which makes sense for talking to a health and wellness coach. So how does what people eat impact on their productivity.

Laura Timbrook: Oh my goodness. So huge amount we know when we are dealing with processed foods high amounts of processed foods. They’re inflammatory in our body. When we are inflamed. We are more likely to you know get chronic diseases we are more likely to feel sluggish and gross.
I mean, think about if you ever went well Halloween is coming up. So we have our big candy binge holiday and you know when you eat a lot of sugar, you kind of feel gross and slug. Exactly. And nothing gets done.
But if we start eating a diet of balance and Whole Foods. Hey, still have your chocolate but just don’t eat the whole bag. And that’s really where we see ourselves we feel lighter. We’re more productive, our brains are functioning quicker. We don’t have that brain fog and, you know, the interesting thing is, I was just reading some things about hydration.

1% of dehydration actually affects productivity at 12% so that’s pretty high. How much just being slightly dehydrated will actually affect our productivity. So, you know, we want to make sure that we’re eating the right foods and getting in the proper nutrients, because that’s going to affect how we feel. I see a lot of times in teens and young adults.

That they’re not eating enough fruits and vegetables and it’s really affecting them on anxiety levels and just overall well-being. And if we can start adding in those fruits and vegetables. It’s easier for doctors to figure out what’s going on and what we need. You need to start from a balanced approach or you’re always working at a negative

Donna Hanson: Huh. Oh, wow. And I think you’re right you know fruits and vegetables natural and pass through the body quite easily and they can really lift you up without something you down like processed foods do. So we’ve talked about you know, at a higher level similar sorts of things. Businesses can do will implement to help their employees, like Chief wellness officer or different elements. Are there any like simple little things that you know organizations or people watching or listening to this, that they could implement that might just give them a quick little win or show them that there really is something to this.

Laura Timbrook: Yeah, so I like when people can do one or two things, you know, something as simple as going for a walk. Has been so productive in our mental health, our body way how we feel our digestive system. So if we can start implementing somehow to get our employees walking you know, we could do a simple walking challenge or maybe offer some kind of, you know, if you sign up for the walking challenge you can win a $20 gift card. Something fun anytime we can have a challenge or a competition, people are more likely to get engaged. Especially now, especially since everybody’s so separated you need that sense of community that sense of team. So I think something like that is really important. But when we do get back to the offices, I’d like an approach called support don’t force. A lot of times when we start implementing a wellness program we go for the force side we start making our employees wear fitness trackers don’t make anybody do anything. We want to support them. So we can allow them to wear fitness trackers, but even if we don’t even go that far. And we’re just talking about those office meeting breakfast, you know, a lot of times they’re bagels and donuts. You know, the yummy foods.

And a lot of times when we start implementing a wellness program we take those bagels and donuts out and we only put in the healthy foods. Which is great, but really what we’re telling our employees is you’re not healthy on going to make you healthy and this is what you’re going to eat. They’re not going to do it. So we want to still have maybe a smaller amount of those bagels, or donuts. But then bring in the fruit and the granola and leave it up to your employees.

To make that option. If I want the healthy food or if I want to stick with the unhealthy food and generally they’ll stick with the unhealthy food but after time they make the change. It’s very much what we do with kids with vegetables. I always tell parents keep putting the vegetables on the plate at some point they’re going to get curious. And it’s the same thing with adults to keep doing it because at some point we’re going to be like, You know what, I don’t feel like that bagel. Let me just have some fruit or some yogurt, they’re going to make the healthy changes if we support them rather than force them.

Donna Hanson: And everything to me. And that sort of instance often, it can be a little bit of unintended peer pressure they see somebody else eating something and it doesn’t feel so bad for them to try something and then they get to a point where they start gravitating towards that more and more

Laura Timbrook: Oh, absolutely. And that’s really what you want. You want it to be, you know, my husband always says about his dad, he’s like, I could never make my dad do anything, it has to be his decision. Well, it’s like that for all of us. It has to be on our terms. And so that’s what we want, put it on your employee’s terms.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, I mean, I get some ideas spring to mind of different things. I’ve seen in the workplace. So when people were working in offices, which they know right now, things like you know, fruit boxes that would be in the lunchroom that people could go to and just help themselves to fruit. And I don’t know about the US but here in Australia in our supermarkets. You walk into the supermarket or grocery stores you call it. And there’s baskets of individual weeks of fresh fruit that’s free for the children when they come in, so they can grab a piece the fruit and whilst they’re going around the store doing their shopping with their parents or whoever. And they can either pay for it. So, all those things are a proactive in in changing your generation, but I’m even thinking when you’re talking about challenges even thinking about things like an organization, having water bottles branded water bottles that they distribute to staff that sit on the desks and, you know, the challenge is to drink one of those a day and then two of those a day and you know, things like that. But you’re right. People love challenges and I think that that’s one of the reasons why things like fitness trackers have been so popular because we love to see how well we doing, and not necessarily comparing ourselves with others, but comparing ourselves with our self yesterday. Yeah, I am. I love tracking different things like my husband wears a Fitbit and every night or after a week or a month you’re looking to go all look. I have got 7 hours and 48 minutes sleep as the average this week and it’s some like a benchmark and you go, hey yeah I’m doing okay. Robin, go. Oh my god. I just feel so blessed

Laura Timbrook: You know, and that was so much. I heard people when they with being from home. The first thing they said was my weights going up, but I’m not eating anything different. But what they were doing is they weren’t moving and we weren’t wearing our fitness trackers because they were sitting on her desk, because we weren’t going to work or we weren’t going out. And when we finally started putting them back on, we realized we were going from maybe 10-11,000 steps a day to just 3-4000 steps a day. So that’s where it came. It came because we just stopped moving we sit in our chairs on zoom all day. We don’t get up.

Donna Hanson: So that brings us on to the, the recent coven pandemic and people working from home and clearly, it makes it harder to manage workplace health and fitness and what are some of the tips that you’ve given workplaces, given that those lines are somewhat blood now.

Laura Timbrook: Yeah and we kind of have to be really careful with this because, you know, yes, they’re your employees are still employed with you, but they are at home. So we have to keep that homework life a little bit different. You kind of have to be very careful that you’re not intruding and telling them what they can do at home. But what we can do is we can support them and we can you know advocate for them, you know, one of the biggest things I actually see is people not having that separation of the day, starting and the day ending and Donna. I know, much like me. I think you’ve worked from home for quite a while. So, you know, in that first year or two. It was really kind of hard finding like okay, when does work. Stop and life begin like so I think that’s one of the biggest things we need to address is turning off the computer, you know, so many people are working from their kitchens, because they don’t have dedicated offices or they’re working from bedrooms and you know, work becomes bedtime or work becomes family dinners and we need to kind of set up those boundaries and that’s one of the biggest things I see and what I’ve been telling people, is you’ve got to set up a boundary, because you will burn your employees out because it’s so easy to continue working when there’s not no turning it off the phone rings and you’re running to your desk or you hear an email. Come on, and you’re logging in real quick. You have to kind of have that boundary. So that’s one of my biggest concerns during this time is that boundary and our mental well-being.

Donna Hanson: And I’m guessing to, you know, something simple for an organization to do could be just giving people permission to not check emails after 6pm sometimes it’s not until somebody says to us, you know, you don’t need to do that, and that it feels a sense of relief because we’ve created this our obligation in ourselves.

And you know whether people feel like they’re saving time because they’re not commuting or you might find that people working from home and they’re having to balance. In Australia, we have some we’ve had a lot of home-schooling and that’s been challenging for parents with them with young children, where you know both parents are working and maybe they don’t have the resources to be able to get support or in some instances childcare facilities weren’t available in part of the pandemic here. So it really is a challenge, but I’m guessing from a manufacturing perspective. A lot of manufacturing. You can’t do that from right. There’s a lot of elements of your clients that are still physically in locations and I’m guessing that maybe they’ve had reductions in numbers or changes in how they had to operate as a result of the pandemic, so has that influenced you know the advanced you think giving people

Laura Timbrook: Yeah, so when we’re dealing with the actual workforce and it’s kind of interesting. Right now there’s always been a separation between the manufacturing corporate and the, you know, your union workforce and but now it’s even more because our Union workforce is still in the offices, right, they’re still running the machinery and the products and our manufacturing corporate is now at home and you know we have to be very careful that we are still maintaining our health and wellness for the ones that are in the facilities. We need to make sure they feel safe. They feel supported and that their well-being matters, just as much as our corporate so really, you know, and we want to make them feel like there’s a community here that you know we’re rallying behind them to, you know, it was interesting because during the height of CO, but everyone was sending out the healthcare heroes like. Thank you.

Laura Timbrook: But, you know, we really weren’t thinking our manufacturing workforce who is working overtime to make sure we had the proper PPE. So we, you know, it’s really about acknowledging that workforce, because they were there working and they were still scared about their well-being. And their jobs, what was going to happen. So really, for that we really needed to focus on maintaining their health and wellness and supporting them. So it’s really about, you know, our supervisors having empathy and understanding what they’re going through and working as a team.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So, at times fast running out. But I’ve got I’ve got one more question. Um, and, and forgive me for sort of laughing, but I’m sure you probably experienced this before. You’ve got an e book and it’s called eat your effing veggies cheese hilarious title festival. How did that come about and tell, tell me a little about it.

Laura Timbrook: Yeah, so it actually came about, again, from a manufacturing facility, and when he one person was like, give me one thing, one thing I could do and be healthier, and I told him I said just Eat Your Veggies and he looks at me goes seriously. That’s what you’re going to tell me my veggies. I said, Just eat your veggies and he really didn’t like veggies and we ended up coming up with a way of him still having his ham and egg sandwich in the morning, but he had to put spinach on it. Just a few leaves to start with. And four years later, he’s still doing it today. He eats vegetable soup and all his veggies and he’s actually lost a bunch of weight, but it was the simplest thing we can do to really help our health and the crazy thing, at least here in the US are adults aren’t eating veggies. And it was like you know, you’ll spend hundreds of dollars on supplements, but we won’t eat a five dollars bag of carrots actually carrots cost five dollars carrots cost like two dollars

Donna Hanson: We have much the same. So, where can people get that e-book, you know, because it much. I don’t wait for me it’s taking a little bit of curiosity as to what sort of things might be in the able

Laura Timbrook: Yes, so you can go to lauratimbrook.com and there’s and a header on there that says books and you can get it, download it right from my website.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So as we draw it on in what other types of resources or programs do you have for those interested in exploring conversations with you because? We had a conversation before we started, and you’ve been buzzing around the world, virtually talking to different people said clearly the sorts of services and programs you provide, you’re able to provide anywhere in the world, is that right

Laura Timbrook: Yeah, so a lot of what we do is I’ll do an initial surveys, because a lot of times clients might not know what their employees need or what’s been effective. So we start having a conversation we learn about your employees will run a survey and then it could be anything from wellness culture leadership training.

To maybe some nutrition or sleep seminars or workshops. So it really depends on the organization, but it’s all about the employees, having the power to make healthier choices.

Donna Hanson: Wow. So same website. lauratimbrook.com

Laura Timbrook: You, got it. And they can also listen to me on my manufacturing wellness podcast. So that’s available on all download streams for podcasting.

Donna Hanson: And I imagine there’s probably a link from your website as well.

Laura Timbrook: Of course there is.

Donna Hanson: Laura thanks so very much for your time today and the insights on health and wellness. Thank you for joining us for this expert insights episode. Until next time, this is Australian productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week

We are often too busy to consider the impact of our work with each other.  

In a world of 24/7 connectivity, it is somehow hard to find the time to just get our immediate work done. But by altering our focus in our everyday communications, we can increase our productivity work towards intentional outcomes with clients and colleagues.

In this episode I speak with Licensee and Head of Curation of Tedx Melbourne and Communication Coach, Jon Yeo about how we can help our audiences engage with intent.

To find out more about Jon, visit www.brightstar.net.au 

To find out more about TED and Tedx, visit www.ted.com

Donna Hanson: In this Expert Insights episode, I’m speaking with Jon Yeo, aside from working as a communication coach assisting business leaders to engage with content since like 2009 Jon has been a licensee and head of curation TEDx Melbourne. Hi. JON AND WELCOME.

Jon Yeo: Hi, Donna. Good to see you.

Donna Hanson: I’m looking forward to finding out more about engaging with intent and particularly about your involvement with TEDx in Melbourne. I’ve always been curious about TED and TEDx now for the uninitiated what’s TED and what’s the difference between TED and TEDx

Jon Yeo: Yeah, it’s a good question and relatively common one. Ted began as a conference in 1984 and so it started in California. And so, they ran that for many, many years, and then they decided to do a global event which moves around Rio, Scotland all sorts of Africa. And they became the two Ted events that will know love which were all recorded a little bit later they decided to do what’s called a Ted X license, which is an independent license. It is run by a local organizer in their geography. So, because I’m in Melbourne. I have the Melbourne based TEDx license. And so, each geography has its own TEDx license as well.

Donna Hanson: And I guess that makes it easier for them to a create a bigger brand, a more global truly global audience and a mechanism for them to develop more content and obviously get the message out.

Jon Yeo: Yeah. Absolutely got it in one

Donna Hanson: So, what was the journey to becoming licensee and head of curation pathetic. Now that I’m guessing probably somebody just didn’t come and knock on your door and say, hey, we’ve got this awesome opportunity. Would you like you know bit like door to door selling

Jon Yeo: Look what the, I mean, there’s still is an application process but effectively back then, Ted. Well, the that type of community that feature focus optimistic, you know, productive type communities was a bit of a rarity back then in 2009 and so became my tribe. And so, while I wasn’t the founding licensee I was part of the team that began the organization and she had to decide in 2009 whether she was going to run the next TEDx

Donna Hanson: Melbourne.

Jon Yeo: Or organize her wedding. So it kind of landed on my lap. I didn’t want the community to die, and he’s just sort of the rest, State’s history

Donna Hanson: Oh, awesome. Now, just an additional you know added the blue curiosity factor. Um, is there a licensee fee? To buy Let’s, let’s not talk about numbers better fame doesn’t generate revenue.

Jon Yeo: Yeah, there is no fee but the license expires. The moment you run your event and it’s renewed based on whether you’re within 10% of the global net promoter score so that’s the hard part. Because that’s hard to keep up with.

Donna Hanson: Well, I guess that’s a benchmark designed to keep you focused on the end goal, which is making sure that every event you create is engaging

Jon Yeo: Exactly, exactly. And so, all it is focused on event and experiencing experience design.

Donna Hanson: And what do you think is made both TED and TEDx so popular globally. Because, I mean, you mentioned Ted or TEDx and instantaneous recognition worldwide.

Jon Yeo: I think It’s largely because I mean, Ted began is the convergence of technology entertainment. And design so that convergence really lead to worldwide launches of things like CDs and the Apple Macintosh which before our list of public was shared amongst the tech community so became sort of a space to see the future. And see the possibility of the world. And so, I still think it continues to do that very much around the its core principle of ideas worth spreading where
it’s not the idea, necessarily, but the word spreading part then becomes the interesting part of the brand.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, there’s no shortage of ideas, but do today. You say,
the establishment of the TEDx did that change the dynamic of the content that was involving tape like it. Is it being it straight line that it must be technology in education entertainment design.

Jon Yeo: Entertainment. It didn’t in because I think one of the things that unique about that communities that were all. A certain mindset or and like I said future focus optimistic proactive and so it just became a bit of a grounds well and on the ground community run by the community owned by the Community shared by the community. And I think that was its power. It could bring the power of that community together and still capture and cultivate those ideas and inspirations.

Donna Hanson: Awesome. So, um, I know this is probably a challenging question one that I’m going to throw on you out of the blue. Do you have a favourite Ted or TEDx talk or is that like selecting your favourite child.

Jon Yeo: These a little bit. It is a little bit. I like different talks of different reasons. Sometimes deliveries on as PERSPECTIVE, SOMETIMES inside. Sometimes it’s just beautifully done. But I think one of the smartest ones that called culminate or that is one my direct service called weird or just different. And the beauty of its only two and a half minutes.

Donna Hanson: Oh wow, is it unusual for TEDx because what’s the time frame you normally giving

Jon Yeo: Yeah. So historically, they’ve been up to 18 minutes that was back, way back when I’m today, the average TED talks about nine. So, two and a half. Still, sure. But I think the attention spans of the communities getting shorter, denser the talks are sort of reflecting it.

Donna Hanson: Okay, so, um, I know there’s a whole lot of other questions I want to ask as well. But I’m going to ask one final question about that the TED element.
Do people like to spend a lot of time working on their ideas and refining their ideas or is it one of those things where people say, I’m going to do a TED talk and off they go.

Jon Yeo: I think different organizers approach it slightly differently, but I think in the main it starts that quality expectation is starting to go up. And so, for me, I will personally work with a speaker anywhere between 18 and 27 hours with them. Plus, practice which you know can probably be you know anywhere between 1500 and 50 hours.

Donna Hanson: All for that tiny little bit of psycho her scene for a theatre play or a TV show, I guess, isn’t it?

Jon Yeo: Oh, it looks. It’s not unlike the Olympic something if you do in the hundred meters. Dash. That’s literally nine seconds of your life that you might spend 4 – 8 years Preparing for and, you know, a TED talk, kind of, I would approach it the same way. It’s a great opportunity.

Donna Hanson: Fantastic. So, I’m syncing based upon you know your other work that there’s a bit of a link between Ted TEDx and your work as a communication coach legacy touched on that there with the coaching of
Potential or people who are presenting for TED, TED and TEDx. Well, what is engaging with intent mean for you, and why does it matter.

Jon Yeo: Engaging with intent is really around the impression underneath the ID have. So, in my world is three sort of core pillars in terms of communication is the content use you share and a lot of people say content is King, and I would say well content is kind of minimum because content is everywhere. And so, you’ve got really must have good content before it starts. So, you can stand out.

Contents, which can be things like the nature of your interaction, the time of day even can be important or the nature of that interaction. And then the intent is around. Well, what is your belief. Or purpose for that relationship and you do they trust your intent, you know, have you built that trust and rapport, but this is they don’t trust you, then it doesn’t matter what comes out of your mouth. And I think a lot of people just kind of go to their social media or the marketing just stand at the top of the building with their mega fine and yelled and message out expect the hordes to come running in it. Just doesn’t work that way anymore. And there’s so many modern examples. Now, where brands differentiate themselves because their intent is really done well.

Donna Hanson: Oh, clear. Yeah.

Jon Yeo: It is also a critical part

Donna Hanson: Absolutely. So, the sorts of people that you might engage or that might engage you to help. So, for example, you’re talking about presenters at the TEDx events. And, you know, we’re talking about business leaders are we talking about executives, but what are the types of people that will generally be looking for some type of a purposeful focus community coat communication coaching in this manner.

Jon Yeo: Yeah. So, in my work is typically CEOs and their direct reports the simulation. Occasionally, it’s the sales teams and then for sort of medium sized businesses, usually the business side. So, anyone who’s got to connect and engage very quickly, build trust and rapport.

Jon Yeo: And really make that impact really get that impression quickly, otherwise the opportunities lost

Donna Hanson: So, I’m sensing. It could be two-fold. It could be, you know, for example, as CEO, he might be wanting to communicate with the intent. Downwards through his organization or her organization as well as a CEO who might want to communicate with the intake outwardly as far as their brand message is concerned.

Jon Yeo: Yeah, exactly. So, it tends to be announcements or innovations that need to be launched and those announcements might be internal they might be external but it’s, it’s something that’s important and declarative that needs to be said unnoticed.

Donna Hanson: And absolutely, those sorts of things. A bottle and even a slight nuance or the choice of a wrong set of voice, as we all see in politics, just the wrong set of words at the wrong time sending an automatic reaction mode can have a huge impact.

Jon Yeo: Yeah, absolutely. I like this. I like to sort of colon as saying the right thing at the right time to the right person in the right way.

Donna Hanson: And that’s that certainly encapsulates it doesn’t

Jon Yeo: Absolutely.

Donna Hanson: I’m at listeners and viewers today, uh, probably thinking to themselves, you know, what sort of things. Could they change or adapt in their interactions to have greater engagement and be a bit more intentional and maybe a bit clear and get towards the outcomes that they’re after Jon

Jon Yeo: I would say that largely a lot of people are underprepared and while you don’t always get a chance you know sometimes you must be on. Promise you. I think the opportunities where you do get the opportunity being clear about what you’re going to say. And being clear about the value you want to create for the listener. Then becomes should become an important part of your messaging over and on top of what you’re going to say was, what are you going to say is going to come out anyway.

So, you might as well do it in their favour to see so they can see you in the best possible light or your message in the best possible light so that there’s a relationship established as opposed to an information transfer

Donna Hanson: So, it sounds like having started with the end in mind to use an adage, what the outcome that you’re looking to achieve because you could just go out there and talk about just about anything. And people go, well, that walk away going on. That’s nice, but I’m not called to move on something, or act. So, it sounds like primarily the first thing you do if you’re working with someone who is identify what it uses the end objective or the purpose of what they’re doing.

Jon Yeo: Absolutely. I mean that that’s one of the key pieces that I that I get people to focus on these certain political constraints that certain social constraints, a certain time and constraints, you got to factor in
but without that clear in point. It’s difficult to plan backwards, where you need to go and how you need to go about it because if you’re worried about just pure information. Transfer put in internet send it in an email, you know, there’s multiple ways to get information out there, but to build that real press reporting relationship then becomes the key attribute to really a great foundation for further conversation.

Donna Hanson: And I think sometimes what people do when they’re looking to communicate and they’ve maybe got the outcome is they’ve got so much information that often. What they do is I call it verbal diarrhoea. Sometimes they just say everything and they try to get the audience to be the ones to decipher and work out what are the relevant pieces of information. I’m guessing you see that

Jon Yeo: Yeah, absolutely. It’s particularly pertinent the virtual space where it’s so easy to get distracted and overwhelmed and just go do something else. And there’s nothing you can do about it. So, density, timing tone speed all these other things then become factors that cause someone to engage with what you’re really wanting to do here. And this is, it’s part art part science.

Donna Hanson: You talked a moment ago about distraction. Had we found that engaging with entailed in your work has changed because of, you know, the last period that we’ve been through the kind of coronavirus pandemic that people have needed to do and having maybe to approach a communication has changed because we’re doing far more virtual then within a down before.

Jon Yeo: I don’t know. That’s chat. I mean, so for me the medium is just another context. And we’re just using this context, more than we have in the past. Though if you weren’t experienced in this medium or this context, then it’s something you need to bring up to speed, but for people who are already there. Then there’s an opportunity to build on that and then take advantage because more and more tools come out every day. The different feature sets and different capabilities that you can then take advantage of. And so, knowing your tools, then becomes an important part of that. And it’s just like any other skill that’s just another tool.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, look, I could probably talk for hours around a whole lot of different things. And I know you and I’ve talked off air for quite some time, regardless but one final question or ask, as you know, I’m passionate about productivity with technology.

And I’d really love to know with all the work that you’re doing, you know, if it takes and your communications coaching would share your favourite tip that you use to keep yourself productive. Now there might not be again it might be like choosing a child, you might need to choose a couple but that’s okay. There’s no rules here.

Jon Yeo: I think the single and this comes back to focus again. And it’s quite an analogy one because I used to type this up, but I don’t anymore actually have a look and literally have a post it notes. Top hardcore that basic your top six things stack ranked from one to six right at every night. Get up in the morning, start with number one and don’t do anything else until number one is done then star. Number two, etc. This allows you focus. There’s no pop ups. There’s no distractions. There’s clarity, when you get up, you don’t have to think in the morning because thinking is one of the most time consuming and energy consuming efforts that you have and you know, just do it overnight, that’s, I mean, that’s me probably the single biggest focus and then I you know me, I have lots of tech plays and technology things being a tech person myself that I like to sort of tweak and play with as well.

Donna Hanson: Yeah, I think I’m very much into that to the tactile nature of something plus the visual thing with a post it notes is it’s there and the sense of clarity, you get, you know, by scratching one awful ticking the Box or Whatever it is that’s your mechanism to mark off something has been done and you know, like you said analogy stuff. I think often what we’re looking for, what people are looking for. Now the next thing that’s going to solve the problem, but realistically, I believe we’ve already got everything we need to be successful. Right now, we don’t need something else. It’s just a matter of putting all the pieces together to achieve the outcome that you need to achieve or want to achieve.

Jon Yeo: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely and simplicity is almost always the best.

Donna Hanson: Absolutely spot on there. Yeah. JON If our listeners or viewers want to get in touch with you to explore how you can help or Perhaps curious about TEDx or Ted regardless of where they are in the world. Maybe they want to attend an event where should they go

Jon Yeo: So, fit for the TED related stuff is tedxmelbourne.com of causes for my work is I have a website and then I I’m quite active on LinkedIn. So, feel free to kind of look at my stuff on LinkedIn.

If you do connect. Just put a little note, though, because I find that the people who don’t tend to be wanting to sell me something. And I’m bound by a general rule I don’t accept them anymore because I just get sold to map. So just put a note, more than happy to have a conversation and I have some articles there as well, which nail

Donna Hanson: Wonderful yet look on the same with LinkedIn to I figure if you can push the button to send me a link, you can afford to type a few more keystrokes to tell me a found me or you know that we know somebody jointly because even something like that can make the connection, a little bit more comfortable then then just I want to join your network.

Jon Yeo: Yeah. And it’s clarifying the intent. Again, I understand the nature of our interaction and the nature of the value that we want to correct for each other. And that’s what LinkedIn is all about. I think

Donna Hanson: Awesome. Well Jon thanks so very much for your time today and for your insights on TEDx and for engaging with intent thank you for joining us on this Expert Insights episode. Until next time, this is productivity and technology expert Donna Hanson have an amazing week!

Nishant Kasibhatla is a professional speaker, corporate trainer and an author. He is a Guinness Record Holder (2011) and has worked with organisations such as Oracle, American Express, Qatar Airways and Petronas delivering presentations that are mesmerising, memorable and message driven.

He has over two decades of experience and has worked with companies, schools, students and individuals in over 19 countries and 5 continents.