Double Take is a podcast about the art and science of making good decision, with hosts Matt Geleta and Anshul Jain.
In this episode, Matt and Anshul take a dive into a philosophical rabbit hole with the question "What should I want to want?"
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Transcript
[00:00:04] Matt: Welcome to Double Take, where we explore the art and science of making good decisions. I'm Matt.
[00:00:09] Anshul: And I'm Anshul. Have you heard of David Goggins, Matt?
[00:00:12] Matt: I have heard of David Goggins. Uh, actually my very first serious running injury actually happened shortly after reading his book. Because after reading it I felt so motivated to just go for a ridiculously long run and ramped up my volume much faster than I should have. So, yes, I've heard of David Goggins.
[00:00:29] Anshul: Yeah, I'm reading his book at the moment. Um, it's pretty crazy, right? Like, he basically had a tough childhood. He's in his 20s, I think. He's working at a pest control, as a pest control person at McDonald's. So he'd, you know, go there at 3am at night, destroy all the cockroach nests. Uh, pretty overweight, no direction.
Gets home one day, sees training for the Navy SEALs on the Discovery Channel, like the, the most elite group of, uh, you know, essentially soldiers in the army, and he's like, I'm gonna go become one of them.
[00:01:01] Matt: Yeah, it's absolutely crazy. It's like a switch flipped in his head and he just became an unstoppable force overnight. It's been a while since I read it, but if I recall correctly, sort of overnight he started training super hard in the gym every single day, going for insanely long runs and hikes. eating well, spending every second of his remaining time studying for the SEAL exam, and then before you know it he's submitted an application and he was, he was right there in front of the SEALs.
It was just wild.
[00:01:30] Anshul: Yeah, I think he, I don't think it was actually that, that straightforward. So he, he lost a ridiculous, like 20, 30 kilos, it was in pounds or something, but he lost a huge amount of weight just to make it into The first pass of the trial and then they put him through something called hell week, which is seven days of Basically non stop training.
I think they get you know, something like under 10 hours of sleep during the entire week And they're doing intense physical training the whole time and he fails the first two times and on the third go his shins are so damaged, like he's got shin splints essentially, from running so much that he has to get there two hours early every morning and duct tape his legs so that he can do these, you know, 50 60 mile runs along the beach all day.
[00:02:17] Matt: I mean, look, it's definitely impressive, I must say, but honestly, when hearing about that sort of behavior, it's really hard not to think that he's just got a screw loose in his head. And I mean, seriously, like, why would somebody want to put themselves through all of that? Um, when I think with that same level of effort and motivation, you could probably get all the things he wanted in a much easier way.
I don't know. I mean, it seems like that behavior must be driven by some sort of atypical psychology to me. Um, But I guess on the other hand, I mean, he's inspired a lot of people and he's sure achieved a hell of a lot in a very short amount of time. So, uh, you know, he did completely turn his life around from what it was.
So definitely at least better than the past controlled days, I would say.
[00:03:02] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But, I mean, the thing I find most interesting, obviously his story is incredible and, you know, he's done some amazing things, but what I found most interesting going through the entire book is he He changed what he wanted so drastically, to some extent. And, you know, maybe you can argue this is what he always really wanted, but maybe, you know, there was some part of him that wanted achievement and success, but...
The extent to which he's doing it now versus what he was doing in the past and, you know, maybe in the past he wanted to get home after work and sit down on the couch and eat pizza and now what he wants is to run ultramarathons and come first. Uh, to some extent there has been a deep changing in... His core motivations and desires and that that's what I found most fascinating about the entire book, right?
Like he he talks about the actual process of rewiring himself There's a period of the book where you know he wakes up every or he'll shave his head in the mirror and he's got a ritual and he's talking to some in the mirror and part of all of that is, you know rewiring his mentality so that he He genuinely does, you know, crave the success and the, uh, I guess the challenge of everything he's
doing.
[00:04:18] Matt: Yeah, but part of me is a bit skeptical that it's a bit of a marketing ploy and, uh, and the whole thing is made up like, you know, there are characters out there who are completely fictional. Um, but I guess in the, in his case, he's been on enough public forums, you know, and trusted podcasts, things like that, that I think is probably quite legit.
And I mean, certainly he's, he's been in, in races where you can see the results online. And so he's, he's definitely done them. Um, but. Yeah, God, it feels so extreme. I'm actually amazed that he could have changed what he wanted that drastically. I just can't get my head around that.
[00:04:51] Anshul: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, I mean, sure, some parts of his story are probably exaggerated, but this idea of being able to change what you want... Most people have experienced it to some extent, right? Like, you know, when I was a kid, I hated tomatoes. At some point, I liked tomatoes. Uh, and to some extent, tomatoes, particularly for me, were a deliberate effort.
Um, now, he's maybe gone and done this on a more extreme scale, but I think the, the really interesting question here then becomes, you know, if I can change what I want, like, what should I want to want?
[00:05:28] Matt: Yeah, it's, uh, it's a question I think that people don't ask themselves very often at all. It's, um, yeah, it feels like you're scratching something very deep, very deep there at the core of the human condition.
[00:05:40] Anshul: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like people basically spend the first 20 or so years of their life getting turned into something by accident, and then you just spend the rest of your life figuring out what that is and trying to change, you know, the tiny bits and pieces of it that you find
time to.
[00:05:56] Matt: Yeah, exactly, the human condition. We're born into a world not being able to control pretty much anything of what happens to us. Kind of learn a few things subconsciously, unconsciously, pick up habits from other people and then these things become part of who we are and we don't even think of them as choices.
This is just, you know, Hi, I'm Matt, I like, I like tomatoes and Anshu doesn't and that's just me. That's just me. Haha.
[00:06:19] Anshul: Yeah, so like, right now you like or dislike certain things. These came from genetics, culture, upbringing, friends you met in primary school, whatever it might be. Uh, and, you know, part of that is fairly innate, like the vast majority of humans are born liking sweet and fatty foods, you know, when you're a kid, you might enjoy learning to play a sport, uh, when you're older, you might get addicted to work or something even worse.
And in some sense, they're all things which you want or like, and you're, you're drawn towards them.
[00:06:52] Matt: Mmm. Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, words like wants and likes and desires, I think they are a little bit complex to unpack. And I think we could go fairly deep discussing them, but I think you can pretty much safely say on the surface level at least that most people want to do things that broadly maximize some, some form of positive feelings versus negative ones.
Like you're attracted to things that make you feel good, you're repelled from things that make you feel bad, at least over some time period with a broad definition of, you know, what, what feels good and what feels bad. So I guess it might be a little bit contentious. to really dig into that too much and I don't think we need to go down that, that rabbit hole.
Um, but generally speaking, I think that's right. Attracted to things that make you feel good, repelled from things that make you feel bad. And most of the time, those things have not really been thought through ever.
[00:07:41] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, in the, in the happiness bucket, you know, it could be everything from... joy to laughter to love, uh, broadly things which you enjoy, um, and in the, in the negative, it could be fear and, uh, disgust and maybe something else. Uh, if I, if I put my mathematician hat on, you could probably imagine some kind of happiness graph over your life where, you know, at each moment you're seeing, you know, the total net Sum of your positive minus negative emotions.
Um, you know, however you want to define that. And you would, you can map out that graph over time, over your entire life, and the area under that graph, or that curve, would be, uh, essentially like the total sum area of your, your net happiness in your life. Uh, and so in some sense, maybe what you're doing is trying to maximize...
The area of that, or the surface area under that curve, over your entire
life.
[00:08:45] Matt: Yeah, it's, it's like the whole, I mean, that's the principle underlying utilitarianism as a philosophy, um, just applied to, you know, just yourself versus everyone, um, but just as with, with, you know, getting practical with utilitarianism makes perfect sense in theory. And then as you start to try and use it, you realize there's a whole lot of nuance in trying to make that work.
Um, so for example, there's a debate around whether we should be optimizing happiness for the experiencing self. So in each moment, how happy you feel versus the remembering self, um, in, in the case of the curve, you could imagine, for example, sitting in a virtual reality, uh, simulator for your entire life or 95% of your life being, uh, experiencing absolute bliss.
It's the best, it's the best feeling that anyone could feel for 95% of your life. And then you get out of the last 5% and you realize, ah, life is quite normal and I've wasted a bunch. And, you know. 5% of your life later, you, you die and most people would look on that and say, okay, yes, they did live a very happy, blissful life and they did somewhat maximize the area under this curve of happiness, but that's not a good life and that's not a life that you should want to want.
So, I don't know, it's, it's a good framework, but, uh, there, there are, there are a bunch of, uh, very difficult nuanced cases in there for sure.
[00:10:04] Anshul: Mmm, better stay away from those, uh, Apple Vision Pro headsets.
[00:10:09] Matt: Yeah, I've actually not tried. I've actually not tried one of those, but I have tried some of the more primitive Oculus Rift ones. And honestly, even those, I'm just blown away by how much they take me out of my body and sort of how, I mean, they convinced me that this experience machine is coming. It's definitely coming.
[00:10:26] Anshul: Oh yeah, one day, one day for sure.
[00:10:29] Matt: I mean, even then, like science fiction aside, that happiness graph model, it gives rise to plenty of interesting edge cases. So, for example, um, something that's not science fiction, imagine you took some new drugs that made you insanely happy for a short period of time. Like a happiness spike. And you can imagine that that level of bliss was so high that...
Even if it comes down, your life is fairly miserable afterwards. It's not so miserable that it cancels out that, that peak. And so again, like that, the happiness, uh, like graph model might make you think that, Oh yeah, you should want to take the drugs. But again, most people would look at that and feel like it's a pretty repugnant, uh, sort of choice to make about, about what you should want to want.
[00:11:16] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely more sold on that one. I actually, I'm not too turned off by the, by the virtual reality machine. Um, but this one, this one seems somewhat obvious to me. Uh, you know, spending 99% of the time of your life, uh, in misery. Versus one big huge spike, which in some sense, you know, if you decide to take certain drugs Which we already have available today.
You're maybe making a parallel choice Yeah, okay. Fair enough. Let's let's cast aside. Maybe the the happiness graph
analogy
[00:11:52] Matt: But I think, I think that, I think the principle there makes sense. I think, I think the principle makes sense. You want to take a rational look. So, it's very relevant if you're looking at um, whether you really are maximising things that you want, right? And things that make you feel good. So I think whether it might not be an actual happiness graph but you can certainly say this, imagine a graph that looked the same, a crow like two graphs that look exactly the same, and then all you did was lower um, one section of one graph.
Everyone would agree that's objectively worse. And so there are also cases where this graph sort of analogy works very very well.
[00:12:26] Anshul: Yeah, like all frameworks, I guess the the edge cases Often don't matter if you're kind of directionally correct and if you focus too hard on it in in either direction, it's probably not as useful
[00:12:39] Matt: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I totally agree.
[00:12:41] Anshul: Okay, so So, I guess that's our, that's our big hairy question for today, what should I want to want? Um, which, it gets even hairier, because if you acknowledge that you can, you start with a certain set of wants, uh, or base desires by accident, and you can take some steps to rewire yourself, so you want something new, um, so you can change what you want, uh, But you can also change what you want to want.
And so now you have to ask the question, What should I want to want? And that goes on infinitely. Uh, which, I don't know if this makes it an unsolvable question, or if we can even get to a reasonable answer here.
[00:13:23] Matt: Well, again, going back to the mathematician in you, like sometimes you hit a fixed point and of an iterative. So this is an iterative process. What should I want? What you want to want? Sometimes the fixed point is just the fixed point. And so you can iterate, but it's not moving. So level one and you solve it.
And I actually suspect in this case, uh, a lot of the case that that might be true in a lot of cases, you know, practically speaking, you could imagine. That, um, a lot of these questions of, you know, what should I want to want, hit this obvious answer. Because you never thought about it before and at level one that answer is fixed and it's going to stay however many times you ask the, but what should I want to want, but what should I want to want, um, like, I don't know, for example, like, um, if I was questioning whether I should want to exercise and, and, and eat relatively healthily and have a healthy body, um, you know, first thing on a Monday morning when I get out of bed, I guarantee you that's, that's not what I want.
Um, and I feel like the answer is no, but after just a moment's reflection, And maybe a cup of coffee. I changed my mind and I feel like, okay, yes, of course that's what I want. And then from that point onwards, there is no doubt. I don't have to keep asking myself that question. I know that that's clearly the right answer and it's a fairly objective answer.
You know, look after yourself, be healthy. So, I think it's actually, I think there is some daylight here that we could come to.
[00:14:41] Anshul: Okay, cool. So, we're going one level deep. What should I want to
want?
[00:14:45] Matt: Yeah, I think so.
[00:14:46] Anshul: Or phrased a little bit less confusingly, Um, Yeah, how, how should I change the things that I currently want or don't want today?
[00:14:56] Matt: Yeah, I think, I think that's a, that's a really good framing and I think it's, it's worth pointing out here that a big trap that humans fall into often in, in this area is just simply the, the like short versus long term view on wants. Like it's, it's easy enough to do things that you like and avoid things that you don't in any given instant.
I think like that's default animal behavior and that's default human behavior as well. Um, I think the hard part is that. You know, what you consider as what you like and what you don't like, these are only things in a given instant, they're only things in the present. Um, maybe going back to the graph example, for example, setting yourself up to have a peak experience in the future might not be the thing that maximizes your, like, peak experience later on.
Um, the classic example would be eating lots of sweet things now. You know, you actually genuinely potentially do want them now, but all you have to do is look into the long term consequences, you know, let's say diabetes, and even now you don't want the long term consequences, and so just reflecting on that, like, long term implications of short term actions, I think that already can, like, significantly shift what you, what you want to want.
[00:16:09] Anshul: Yeah, I, I haven't thought about this very hard, but I almost wonder if all of these problems are short first, long term problems, where there's a discrepancy between what I do want and what I should want. Um, and I mean, to your point, you know, even vice versa, like if we flip around, you know, I can be happy today by eating candy, but I have diabetes tomorrow.
Uh, also flipped, I can, you know, take pain in quotes today, uh, by working hard, for example. Um, and then in the future it might pay off, so I can have short term aversion in return for long
term reward.
[00:16:48] Matt: Yeah, I think, I think you might be onto something there. It's, um, there's like a, there's a short and long term thing, and there's also like an identity thing where, um, you, you, you probably are a different person today than you'll be in the future to some extent. And it's just hard to put yourself into the mindset of the person in the future.
And so I think because it's very hard, the default is not to, not to do it. And we optimize for this one. Um, yeah, the, the work example is a good one. Um, and. I feel really lucky in this regard because I actually like working as well and it brings long term benefits and so it's just a, it's just a win win for me.
But I think many people, you're right, it's a slog for them to work and they do it just for the long term benefits. How then does one figure out what they should want to want?
[00:17:37] Anshul: Uh, I mean, if I, if I were to think about the questions I would ask to answer that for myself, it would be, First, what do I want today? So, for example, let's say I'm compelled to drink a can of Coca Cola at 3pm every day. That is something I want. Um, go, and I do it, and I enjoy the result, at least in the short term.
Um, then the other question is, what do I dislike today? Because in some sense, not wanting is also, you know, a force pulling me in a certain direction in the short term today. Uh, so, you know, like your example before, I might hate going to the gym today. And that could be something I want to rethink. And so then, armed with knowledge of what I want today, And what I don't want today, I ask the question, what do I want to change about my wants and not wants today?
Uh, so for example, if we, if we acknowledge that I can change those things, and I want to train myself to want new things, what should I be wanting instead? You know, would a, would a banana be better than the can of Coke every day? Or what if I just like, didn't want anything at all at 3pm every day? Maybe that's even better.
[00:18:49] Matt: Yeah, okay. It seems like, it seems okay. I wonder if it begs the question a little bit though. Um, you know, we've said. A big part of this whole problem is that people actually don't even know, uh, what they want or what they, what they don't want. And I actually bet most people couldn't even do step one, which is write down a clear, like honest list of desires and wants in the present.
[00:19:11] Anshul: Yeah, I mean, uh, can you give me an example?
[00:19:14] Matt: Uh, yeah, for sure. Um, so. An example here might be, um, something that's driven by a hidden desire for status. So suppose, for example, someone works really hard in their career, and, um, you know, they want to climb the corporate ladder and earn a lot. They can easily justify to themselves that they want to do this so that they can support their family and they could set up a good future and, and all these things might be things that they actually, you know, when they reflect, they say, yeah, I genuinely do want those things and I want to want those things, but really secretly.
So, the day to day hard working, you know, working the extra hours, going home late is really driven by, you know, the, the social pressure and the, look at one of these social status. Maybe they want a fancy job title in front of their friends or to earn more in front of the people in their direct sort of network.
And so, this is an example of them. They could write down this list. They could think. It's something that they genuinely want, and they're actually just wrong. Either they're lying to themselves, or they really just don't know that their real motivation is status.
[00:20:21] Anshul: Yeah, no, that's a really good point and Like a lot of the things we end up talking about like it's super hard to just avoid the cognitive bias and be honest with yourself I think it's probably worth more narrowly defining what we mean by want or desire in this context and To me, it's almost Just anything like we said before that brings you some kind of positive emotion and that needs to include The things which, you know, it's independent of what you might call virtues, for example, are things which people feel like they should want or should be telling other people that they want, and so a lot of people Might not want to share that they do desire social status, but if you actually Analyze your mind and think about how you feel when You go and update LinkedIn and you put that new fancy job title in there And if you feel good when you do that, then you have to acknowledge.
Yes, that is something I do want And the same way like if I'm a you know, if I'm addicted to my can of coke at 3 p. m. Every day Maybe I'm embarrassed to tell people about it. But if I take that sip and I feel good that is something I want Um, and this can, you know, extend further. It can be, you know, if I, if I'm an alcoholic and you know, I don't like the fact that I'm an alcoholic, but I do like it when I drink, then yes, there's some tension there, but at least for the context of what we're talking about today, that is a want or a desire.
And then whether or not we want to change that and how we change that is a separate part of the
conversation.
[00:21:56] Matt: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, but part of me wants to say this is a question of behaviorism and you kind of have to look at behaviors which are objective, everyone can agree on them. What are you doing? And if you're, if you're doing something, if you're doing a certain action, um, maybe you need to cast that as something you want and, um, I don't know.
I mean, there are a lot of questions here. I think your framing is right. There was also, even this is like deeper philosophical question kind of mentioned earlier of just who is the person. You know, writing the list and doing the wanting don't want to go too deep here because it's it's a bit complex but here's a thought experiment I would love to get your thoughts on how to work through this.
So suppose Um, I did this exercise today and came to the conclusion that I don't want to have kids and I could be really rational about it, you know, I've read the literature, I've read that people have done surveys on happiness for new parents and, and, um, you know, on the objective measures, those parents are less happy and they say they're happier, um, or they say it's all worth it, but there's lots of psychological evidence to say that they're just deluding themselves and they're trying to justify it and so suppose I came to that conclusion, but then in, I don't know, five, 10 years time, whenever it is, My biology has changed, like my hormone levels have changed, and, uh, that person in the future now is constituted differently such that the balances have shifted, and that person does genuinely want to have kids, all things considered.
There, there is this question of who am I optimising for, because I could rationally say today that I don't want to have kids and that person in the future would look back and say, well, now I do. And I regret that I didn't. Um, and so you, again, you almost have to kind of look forward to the future and predict what type of person you will be and do this very complex optimization, um, uh, challenge to figure out what, what is it that you genuinely want?
Like, do I want to have kids or don't I? Because right now I don't, but in the future I So what do I choose?
[00:23:54] Anshul: It's the, it's the idea of regret minimization, right? Like the, the, the story is most famously told from Jeff Bezos leaving his high paying job to go start Amazon. And the framework he talks about using is, I know my future self will regret this if I look back and never tried. Um, and to some extent, I guess, yeah, it's very hard because In going off and starting Amazon and in framing it that way to himself, he almost also makes it a self fulfilling prophecy Right to some extent all of this is the narratives you tell yourself and that you genuinely believe.
There's a world in which I don't know, Beth J. Zoss stays at D. E. Shaw and Truly believes the narrative that you know, he would would have regretted taking the risk and leaving the high paying job I think I don't know if I have a clear answer for you there, but I think essentially it comes down to optimising for
Yeah, I guess it kind of depends on the time frame of the decision you're making Um, I guess the kids one is quite a binary thing that may happen or not at some point in the future, whereas something like I don't know, the can of coke or the candy every day Uh, leads to almost inevitable long term
downside
[00:25:14] Matt: Yeah, I think, I think you're totally right. And look, it's always easy to come up with these very specific Um, examples that kind of break, break a framework or break a sort of a way, a way of thinking. And to be frank, like a lot of the time, it's just not helpful. I think in the, in this case, so many of these ones that we've talked about already do have clear, obvious answers that, that aren't broken by the fact that my hormones will be 10% different in 20 years time.
So, um, yeah, I, I, I get the point. I think like basically there is definitely a big. Can of worms if you dig deep enough into this question, but the real low hanging fruit, I think it comes much much earlier. And so Right now I'm in the back of my head as we're talking I'm trying to think of what are all the things that I do like and dislike and I want to change and Actually, not sure where to start like how how do I decide what to do?
What are your thoughts there? Well, how does when someone start here?
[00:26:07] Anshul: Uh, so I think the, the key constraint here is that it's really hard to change yourself, right? Like if you've ever tried to start a new habit, break an old habit, um, and these wants are essentially habits, right? They're, they're repeated patterns in your brain. Um, so if you've got a set of likes and dislikes today in your life.
You only really get a change a handful over the course of your entire life. And if we acknowledge how hard it is, and kind of how asymmetric this problem is, Um, in that I'm starting with a really broad, wide base of, you know, many years of conditioning to like or dislike certain things, Uh, and now for the rest of my life I only get to change a handful, Then, to me, I think it turns into how do I lean more into the stuff which I already enjoy, Which...
You know, isn't going to cause me any long term harm. Uh, and then, how do I take the things which I actually want to change, Uh, because, you know, they're not the best for my long term happiness, Uh, and how do I really focus on rewiring those?
[00:27:11] Matt: Yeah, that makes sense. I totally agree, like, change is hard. That is definitely the key constraint here, I think, for most people that's, that's kind of a showstopper, even the knowledge that change is hard stops you from even undertaking the exercise, because you think, what's the point? Oh, and here's one thing, I don't want to experience change, and therefore I don't want to do this exercise.
[00:27:32] Anshul: ha ha ha.
[00:27:33] Matt: Um, So it seems like from a practical perspective then, the key is to recognize that that change is hard. Wholesale change is difficult and it's important then to focus on the few key things to rewire that will actually make a big difference. So if I think about like what you'd want to rewire, it could be for example, you know, very short term wants that are bad in the long term.
That's a, like a common category, uh, like eating lots of candy, as we said, drinking your coke at 3pm, um, addiction to drugs, might feel good in the short term but bad in the long term, um. And I guess the reverse of that, which is short term dislikes, which are actually long term good. Like, um, those poor souls who don't like working, um, unlike me, who, um, you know, have to force themselves to do it because they know that there's fruit in the long term. Um, yeah, I guess there are also, like, things... which you don't have a choice, right? There's some things that you just have to do. And so it almost doesn't matter if you, if you like or dislike them, you know, for example, if you, uh, are a farmer and that's where your livelihood comes from, um, then you either double down and you learn to love farming, uh, or you suck it up, uh, or you just change your life completely.
Like you, that's, that's, uh, that's something that you're like compelled to do, right?
[00:28:55] Anshul: Yeah. I mean, this idea you mentioned a couple of times of learning to enjoy work, or enjoying work and being lucky because you enjoy work, is interesting, right? Because I don't think you enjoyed work when you were a kid. There was definitely an age at which you didn't enjoy work.
[00:29:12] Matt: I didn't enjoy work until like two years ago.
[00:29:14] Anshul: well, yeah, there you go.
Um, and so, you know, some of it is external. It's the nature of the work, uh, which might make you enjoy it or not enjoy it. Um, but at least for me personally, you know, they're probably about 16 years of My schooling life, where I hated school. Like, I just did not enjoy studying. Um, and especially maths, for example.
I just like, it didn't interest me at all. Um, and then there was one year where it just started interesting me, and I don't know what it was, but because I had jumped on like a little dopamine treadmill, where I got like, my marks started to improve, I understood the concepts better. I enjoyed it. Um, it kind of compounded and I went really, really deep, like purely of my own accord, um, and just started to, you know, really, I guess, train myself to enjoy this particular type of work.
Uh, and that same pattern, I guess, applied. Later on in multiple parts of my life, right? It didn't just have to be maths. It could be other things where I'm doing, uh, where I feel like I'm improving and getting better at a skill. Uh, and that, that's actually a really concrete example, which I think a lot of people go through because what toddler enjoys studying, uh, very few of them, but if you give them the right reward and motivation, uh, over time they'll become intrinsically motivated and enjoy work or study or whatever it might be.
[00:30:48] Matt: It's, it's such a good example and like, it's actually one that's so close to my heart. Uh, this sort of maths education piece and people's relationship with maths. Because I think you're totally right, it really goes back to what you said earlier where, kind of by accident people get put on a certain path earlier on, and they don't realise that there's been this sort of like dopamine conditioning.
Um, the, the maths example is so good because very, very early on in school, and not to make this like a maths lecture now, but, um, you know, Uh, children are, you know, they do certain exercises, certain tests, and they're in a random cohort of people. So there is going to be a distribution of aptitudes for whatever that first thing is, and acknowledgement is differential across those students.
Some of them get sort of positive reinforcement because they're kind of shining in that random group that they happen to be in, and some of them not. And I have a very strong feeling that puts you on just this path that you mentioned, you know. You, and when you're, when you're young, you're so malleable.
And some people get this sort of positive reinforcement. And that becomes the path they go down. Some get negative reinforcement and then so, they, um, they avoid it. And, uh, you're, you're totally right. It's, it's just an example of, um, sort of reinforcing something that was actually really random. And, uh, you were lucky enough to, to find the, find the light.
Many people aren't. Many people aren't. Haha.
[00:32:10] Anshul: I think there's, there's actually an experiment which does the thing you just described where they took, uh, a cohort of, uh, students and they put them in, you know, they, they were maybe going from year one to year two and the teachers were used to those students being grouped into, you know, class A, class B, class C based on their performance.
Uh, and what they did was they shuffled them randomly and they moved them up to the next year, but didn't tell the teachers. And so the teachers teaching class A thought that they had the best students and the same for B, and teachers C obviously thought they had the worst set of students. And what they found at the end of the year was the, the distribution actually stayed the same.
So the kids in class A performed the best. And I haven't looked into this deeply, but the argument then is how much of that was driven by an inherent capability of You know, in year one, six year olds, versus the fact that you've told them that they're good and they're going to be motivated By that to go learn more and do better.
I'll end this tangent here. Otherwise, we could go very deep on it But if we come back up to our main topic, how do we like the the question? We then arrive at is how do I actually change what I want, right? We've acknowledged that we can and that it might be valuable. How do I do it?
[00:33:32] Matt: Yeah, it's, uh, that is the golden question. It's a great question. Um, I think both, both of us have probably read several... pieces or books or, you know, heard things on this topic. Um, and there are definitely some frameworks that I've found very helpful. One of the key ones, and it actually does go back to the tangent you just mentioned, is recognizing that you're operating in a system, there is a system around you.
And if you can set up systems and guardrails for yourself, That can guide you to the right behaviours and then they become behaviours that you, sort of, um, uh, they become part of you. So, you know, recognising that a lot of the time your more rational mind, if given the chance, does actually know what you truly want on a deeper level than your, sort of, more animal mind.
Um, but the animal mind wins out in moments of weakness and in moments of, like, impulse. A good example here is, um, eating unhealthy snack food. Like, do you want it or don't you want it? Me now sitting behind my computer with no unhealthy snack food in front of me, I'm not drawn to it and I can say irrationally I don't want it.
But if I were to walk into the kitchen and see it there on the kitchen table, something might change and I would want it. And so that's a great example of actually just setting up, like looking for those systems, and um, you know, making sure you don't end up in situations where those like Sort of more animalistic lower level desires kick in and change what you want in the moment and you know The the sort of high level thinking can prevail so systems and guardrails.
That's that's a top one for me
[00:35:04] Anshul: Mmm. Yeah, I like that one isn't In the same way we framed this as possibly a tension between short and long term desires, uh, I think another good framing is it's a tension between like system one and system two or like your rational mind and your subconscious.
[00:35:23] Matt: Yeah
[00:35:24] Anshul: Um, and you can, you can leverage both of those kind of mental models to come up with the right solutions for changing what you want or essentially like what your subconscious desires in the short term, because that's essentially what
we're trying to get
to.
[00:35:39] Matt: I think that's a great. I think it's a great point actually using the framework What are the what are the system on what things do system one system to? desires diverge? Like where do they have the sort of opposite answers? And then how can I create the system in guardrails such that system two is the thing that's going to win, right?
The non impulsive one. Um, that's a, that's a great framing. I might, I might go have a think about that one.
[00:36:03] Anshul: and for people who System 1 and System 2 is, System 2 is essentially your rational, slow thinking, kind of conscious mind, and System 1 is the, you know, very intuitive, subconscious, habitual, uh, part of your brain. Um, how about this one? And so... Uh, one lens of human behavior is that we're just constantly seeking hits of, of, you know, people say dopamine, but some, some set of chemicals in your brain that, that reward you.
Um, and we get this from a lot of different sources, most typically fulfilling short term wants like good candy. Um, and lots of things can be done to use this to your advantage, uh, by associating the things you actually want with the dopamine hits. So for an example. Uh, if I get good feedback from someone, maybe a teacher, when I'm a kid, that gives me a little dopamine hit and that makes me way more likely to do that behavior in the future.
Or the really classic version of this is the Pavlovian model, which is, uh, if you've ever trained a dog, or honestly ever really interacted with a dog for very long, uh, you'll see that, uh, it's pretty easy to get them to start doing stuff. By just feeding them at the right time. Uh, and that's essentially, you know, if you want to train them to sit, Uh, you're basically feeding them in response to them sitting, Uh, and after a while they'll learn to associate the word sit With the act of sitting, and then the reward.
[00:37:34] Matt: Yeah, I think that's a great example. So in, in like the, the case of what, what do I want to want? So let's go back to, I don't know, your, your Coca Cola example. Um, you know, you, you have this feeling that you want to have a Coca Cola at 3 p. m. And it's giving you a dopamine hit. What you're saying is you could do an alternative behavior that's maybe more healthy and supplemented with the dopamine hit and you will kind of entrain yourself.
To move away from the coke and, and towards the, uh, towards the other thing, right? And it's true, it's kind of true using the same, sort of, underlying biological mechanisms to, to physically train, uh, a different, a different desire.
[00:38:11] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:38:13] Matt: Yeah, I like that one. I like that one. I think you could combine that as well with what we, what we said before. Like, create the, create the systems not just to avoid you ending up in situations where you are encountered with something that you don't really want. But moreover, that you're posed into, you're set up to give sort of reinforcing behavior to things that you do want.
So, I don't know, I don't know what it would be in this case, but maybe there is a piece of celery and a cup of coffee, and I only get my coffee after I've eaten a piece of celery.
[00:38:46] Anshul: Yeah,
I mean, uh, people, people do get conditioned to like all kinds of weird things, right? Um, yeah. How many people enjoy their very first sip of, uh, coffee or whiskey or, you know, even beer? Um, the vast majority of people, like by default, I think they're all meant to be quite repulsive tastes and it's all conditioning, right?
But, you know, with coffee, people eventually condition themselves to enjoy. What is actually the caffeine, uh, but they're just associating that with the particular taste of the
coffee.
[00:39:21] Matt: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, one place this is super relevant in is in habit formation. Generally, like I would like, look at my behavior. I've been drinking coffee every single day for as many years I can remember. And. That, that has certainly just become a habitual behavior and I actually think like most of what we, most of what people do is actually just acting out of these ingrained habits.
Um, I think there's a great book and blog, which I'm sure you've read by James Clear called Atomic Habits and this has some really helpful ideas. I think, I mean, there's a lot in this book, but the premise of the book is basically that almost everything that we do. is habitual. The I behaviors are basically acting out habits.
And as we said earlier, changing habits. Wholesale is very, very difficult. However, making very small tweaks is not so difficult. And so if you think about the smallest incremental tweaks you can make in the right direction, things that you're actually do, um, If you do that and you continue to do it for long enough, even if it's just a small tweak, you will kind of achieve a new set point, sort of a new, um, like point of homeostasis where that, that is now what your body strives for and anything lower will not feel so good.
Anything more will not feel so good, but you, you just incrementally sort of make these atomic small changes. Do them for long enough that they become habitual, and that becomes like the new point. So, um, like a classic example would be for a sedentary person who's doing no exercise whatsoever. All well and good to tell them, like, you go to the gym five days a week.
Um, that's incredibly difficult, but, you know, telling them for one week only, do a ten minute walk each morning. And, uh, before you know it, that will become a habit. That will become something, I don't know how long it will take, two weeks maybe. And they'll want to do that ten minutes, and anything less will start to feel a bit weird.
And that's a much better platform than to do fifteen minutes and eventually twenty minutes. Uh, and eventually that baseline will, will reset. So, um, yeah, I really love that, uh, that idea of thinking of everything you do as just a habit. And using the techniques from, from habit formation, habit breaking, to like set the new set point at the place where you actually, on the thing you actually want.
[00:41:34] Anshul: yeah, yeah, I, I have read that book. I think the, he even goes so far as to say, if you're trying to floss, then just floss one tooth, right? If you try, you know, just making, flossing your entire mouth, I have it, uh, and that's not working, just go super, super small, whatever the lowest threshold is for you to begin taking that action.
And yeah, you're essentially rewiring your brain at that point. Um, I actually had a, had a few interesting experiences around, I guess, these, these concepts while doing silent meditation retreats. Um, I mean, for people who don't know what they are, you essentially go somewhere and you meditate all day for about 10 days, um, and there's no reading, no writing, no reception, no eye contact with other people, no speaking, uh, obviously because it's silent.
Um, and the, the idea is that you. Remove all external stimulus from your mind. Um, and so towards the later part of that retreat, uh, you become incredibly self aware to the point where, you know, I could be, I could be sitting outside. I remember one which has that, I was sitting there. And you would eat outside.
So you'd go get your food. And first of all, because you have no stimulation of every, any kind, the, each bite of food, which you take is incredible. Like it's like my entire body was tingling with how good it was. Um, but there, there was this big problem at this particular retreat, which was, it was the middle of summer and they had a huge number of flies there.
And so you'd be sitting there eating, trying to enjoy your food and flies would just keep landing on your face, your arms, your skin. And then the natural, habitual reaction to flies is to like. Try and shoo them away, shake them off, and I, I noticed that First of all, you actually don't notice the first fly by default, like unless you're in that highly self aware, very present state, you actually tend to notice, you know, the third or the fourth fly, like it takes a while for the annoyance and the frustration to build up enough to reach your consciousness Uh, but the first few flies, you're actually just fully subconsciously showing them away.
You're barely even aware of the fact that you're annoyed and you're showing them away. Um, but what I also found I could do, which I can't do now, but you know, in that, in that period of kind of heightened self awareness was I could start to rewire in the moment my relationship with the fly landing on my face.
Um, so I could actually sit there and, uh, almost reframe. what the fly was to me. Like, you know, if it was a, if it was a bird that had come and landed on my shoulder, I would have been like, oh, this is cool. Uh, and so just doing that for a short period of time in the moment, I actually began to release dopamine in quotes or, uh, enjoy The fact that the fly was choosing me to come land on, uh, it actually got to the point where I had like dozens of flies all over my face and I had to call it quits when they, uh, it turns out if you let them do what they want, they'll start crawling up your nose and into your ears.
So I was like, all right, we, that's as far as the flies get to go today. But, um, it's, I guess the, the TLDR of that is if you want to, if you want to explore rewiring in a, in a more kind of live context of Silent Retreat is a, is a good place to do it.
[00:44:51] Matt: Oh, I'm convinced it sounded wonderful to have all those flies crawling up your But I'm joking, I definitely, I definitely see the value in that and I've not had an experience quite to that level. Um, but in much smaller ways. Um, I think you're right. It's also a bit of like habit formation, right?
There's one part of that retreat where it all comes down to just the experience and seeing things differently. But there is another aspect which is... Training, like an in training and, um, you know, repeating habits over and over and the way you perceive things, again, your, your, your set point changes. So I think that's a, I think that's good.
So given we have, uh, an idea of what we should want, we've now got some methods to implement that change, you know, whether it be practicing in meditation posture or habit formation techniques. It all sounds great. But then. Taking a step back, how do we actually figure out what I want and what I should want?
[00:45:52] Anshul: Yeah, so it's actually quite hard, right? Like it sounds simple on the surface, uh, but if you, if anyone's ever been faced with a tough choice, then you'll know it's actually not totally always obvious what you want.
[00:46:06] Matt: Yeah, it's, it's super hard. I mean, they're, they're often competing variables in tough choices. The, the do I want to have kids one is a great example. You know, I have a biological desire to have them and that's real. That is a want. I also have a, a, I don't know, a desire for freedom that I don't want to sacrifice, which is also a want.
And they're kind of two categorically different things that I have to sort of somehow trade off. So, um, even looking just today, how do I figure out? What I actually want today, trading off all these different variables.
[00:46:37] Anshul: Well, I think, yeah, the, the question of what do I want today is, and I think to, to make, you know, the, the kids example or the tough choices, uh, example simpler, you. Basically want to look for individual variables like you want to go one level lower and see what do I value right so I value freedom I value, you know, having kids or the biological desire to have kids and so the question is essentially Uh, what are the things which give me short term happiness today, or would give me short term happiness today?
Um, happiness being any bundle of positive emotions that you choose. And that can include things which are just short term and not long term, uh, like smoking. Uh, because when you're looking at this question, it's important to also understand what are the things we want to stop wanting, but you have to get the entire list of things that you do want today.
Okay?
[00:47:35] Matt: Yeah. So an example that I've talked about pretty much in every time we've talked is my love of coffee. When I look at what I do on a day to day basis, most of my days do start with a cup of coffee and that coffee is bringing me short term happiness and a lot of it, I might add, uh, and I could, I could reflect then on all the other experiences I'm seeking on a day to day basis.
And kind of infer what I want from my actual behavior. Like I am actually doing these things. What is the underlying want that's driving those, those behaviors?
[00:48:04] Anshul: Yeah, I think behavior is a really good way to begin to reverse engineer this out. Just look at what you do and do you enjoy it or not. Uh, there's actually a few exercises you can use to uncover these. Um, and these are, these are often similar to, I guess, value finding or defining exercises. Uh, so for example, one of the ones which I found very effective is you just sit down and list out stimuli.
So memories of events. Uh, in your day or your life, uh, fictional characters, real people, role models, uh, particular quotes, scenes from movies, uh, music, poems, whatever it might be, uh, you just list out things that you have some kind of emotional relationship with. And then next to each one you just write down if you like or dislike it, and what you like or dislike about it, like what about that thing resonates
with you.
[00:48:58] Matt: Yeah, I think that makes sense. That's pretty practical because you can very quickly call to mind a bunch of very salient experiences. That's quite easy to list down. And once they're down, I imagine if you list, you know, do I like, do I dislike? What are the things that come to mind about why I like this, why I dislike it?
You'd very quickly start to see some patterns emerging from, from the list.
[00:49:19] Anshul: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, if I, if I just think off the top of my head, um, for example, uh, a story that like, or a, or an event that's kind of stuck with me in my life, um. Something a bit short, maybe, is, uh, I don't know if you've ever traveled in India, um, but you know, I'm Indian by background and when you go to India, um, there's obviously a lot of poverty.
Um, and there's actually like a whole system and somewhat industry built around the poverty where um, you know, there's organized begging, you can call it. And so, uh, as a kid there, you're, you're taught, uh, fairly early that, You know, you don't give money to beggars, you know, sometimes if you've got food, you can give it to them.
Um, but, you know, the second you give someone money, then, you know, there's a flock of them. And this obviously sounds terrible. Um, but, uh, the, that's essentially what you get taught as a kid. And, um, I remember a moment in my life where I, I was standing there and, uh, I was eating some peanuts and some kids came up.
And... Asked me for peanuts and like some of the peanuts which I had at my default Instinctive reaction because you know for so many years. I was just like, you know, the default reaction is like no like sorry Go away. I remember my instinctive reaction was no and then I immediately remember feeling Regret that that was my reaction on a number of levels like one the peanuts aren't costing me anything like yes have them take them But the fact that I'd also trained that as a habit and so This is like that particular scene and event stuck with me and In doing an exercise like this, a values finding exercise, or trying to reverse engineer, uh, the things which I want or don't want, Uh, I can actually point to that and say, hey, that, that feeling of regret points me to something which I want to change about myself and which I don't want.
Um, and that's, I guess, you know, in this context, something fairly narrow, uh, around wanting to change that. Default reaction, but also, I guess, like a discrepancy between maybe what, uh, what my short and my long term, uh, my, my habitual reactions and my long term values are.
[00:51:44] Matt: Yeah, I love that example. That's a great example. I think it really points to the fact that if you look for things in your memory that... are particularly salient, particularly charged in any direction. They're going to be charged, uh, and salient because they are going to point to things that you like or dislike or things that are very desirable, very undesirable.
And so I think that's actually a great, that's a great prescription. Like, think about the 10 most memorable things in the last week, in the last month and look at them. and the reason that they're sticking with you in memory is probably because they're very charged with these, these signals of, of like and dislike.
I mean, what changed for you after that experience? Like, how do you feel about the fact that, um, you know, you, you realize this behavior, wanted to change it, what happened?
[00:52:29] Anshul: Um, I mean, in, in that particular case, I think having that strong emotional reaction made my default B to yes. Um, there are still kind of practical implications of Like, getting flocked by people if you are giving, giving away money in, in India. Uh, but, um, I think definitely the default is now more of a yes and, uh, then a second thinking of like, does this practically make sense in this particular scenario?
Um, but I, I think the, the more interesting thing is like a very clear identification of Uh, a value there, and I, I don't know what the name is, but you could call it like empathy, generosity, um, something along those lines. And identifying that as a
want in quotes or a desire, um, as something that is both short and long term, uh, then allows me to make better decisions as I go about my life.
Because now, now I've got a clear understanding of Um, here's a core part of my identity that I do not want to change, um, and which leaning into does give me happiness. So I'm going to lean into that way more in the future, and I'm not going to try and change that one because I've already, you know, made the tweaks or adjustments to it that I did want to.
[00:53:54] Matt: Yeah. Yeah, so this is a really helpful conversation and it feels like we're coming to at least some sort of practical use of approach that, you know, people can take away. If you don't mind, it's basically something like, figure out what things you like and dislike today, um, considering all the factors, combination of culture, genetics, childhood and so on.
And that exercise we just went through I think is a very helpful one. Next is to choose just a handful of them that are worth. Uh, rewiring. You know, we said change is hard. Wholesale change is extremely hard. So, you have to be, you have to prioritize, you have to choose. And you want to choose the few that are actually worth changing.
And, uh, then I just love that, that final example. You know, think about how you can use... The tools we talked about, you know, positive or negative reinforcement, those habit, those habit formation tools to start changing not just the behavior itself but also how you feel about those things and actually eventually to change what you want and what you don't want.
[00:54:58] Anshul: Yeah, and I think one thing which you said before, which I think is super valuable here, is hunting for discrepancies. And that can be discrepancies between short and long term wants, or between, I guess, what your rational mind wants and what your subconscious wants. Uh, if you catch yourself, um, you know, doing something and then, you know, telling yourself off for it.
If you're, if you're eating the candy and then feeling guilty about it, or... Eating the candy and then, you know, reprimanding yourself for it. Something there needs to change. You either need to get over the guilt of eating candy, Or you need to stop eating candy because it's like genuinely bad for you, but that discrepancy uh, is actually also what it gives rise to short term stress and anxiety.
[00:55:46] Matt: Yeah, I love it. I love it. That's a, that's a great tip. Look for the discrepancies. On that note, um, as great as all of this is, I feel like I am spending way too much of my life thinking about what needs to change and not enough just going with it and, and living with it. So the self improvement stuff is double edged sword for sure.
Sometimes one just has to live more in the moment and I'm starting to feel like I need to put down the change thinking.
[00:56:13] Anshul: Ha ha ha. So this reminds me of a time I was reading a book about waking out and uh, somebody I told was very impressed about the fact that I was reading a book about, you know, exercising. And I was like, you know, to be honest, it's actually easier to read this than to go to the gym.
[00:56:30] Matt: Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it is, and it's easier to make a podcast about change than changing it.
[00:56:36] Anshul: Ha ha ha!
[00:56:38] Matt: On that note, I think, uh, I think let's call it, let's go, let's go, uh, let's go do some living.
[00:56:43] Anshul: Sounds good.
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