In this episode Dr Nick Jackson, expert educator and leader of student agency globally discusses his thoughts on AI, assessment and Leeds United.  

Some links from todays chat

Dr Nicks Bio:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickjac?originalSubdomain=au

 

Ai and Violin analogy:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/thompsondonald_generative-models-like-gpt-are-often-perceived-activity-7096598378465165312-nslH?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

 

Nick Cave's- Into my Arms- 

https://open.spotify.com/track/407ltk0BtcZI8kgu0HH4Yj?si=cb0d08856e854529 

 

Check out where Leeds are in the Championship:

Championship Table - Football - BBC Sport

 

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 6 Episode: 3

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

 

 

 

Welcome to the AI education podcast. I suppos this is the space where I get to talk to great minds of education around artificial intelligence and its impact on the classroom. And today we've got Aussie legend and one of my longtime education PLN mates, Dr. Nick Jackson. And he's a school executive expert teacher. AI guru and I think for me one of the best advocates for student agency and education globally I'd say and leads United fan. Before the podcast we started talking about uh leads quite a bit that it was a game on the weekend. Um so thanks Nick for joining us at the start of school week. I know it's really early for you over there in Adelaide but um how you doing mate? I'm doing fine. I um I'm a bit tired after staying up to watch um the mighty lead United. Well they're not so mighty anymore but there we Yeah, they are. They're always going to be mighty leads. One of the best and and a couple of Welsh players in there. So, so I've kind of got a got a year in there as well. So, how have you been m you're doing a lot on AI recently. Um, can you just explain to me your current thoughts and I know things are moving really quickly and I know this is like a really open-ended question. What are your current thoughts on AI and Edu? Uh, I think that's a very difficult question to answer because what my current thoughts are um keeps getting a reality check all the time. So when you're involved as as some people are heavily involved in the whole AI and education space, you sort of get this idea that things are happening around you to a lot of people and then suddenly you get these reality checks when you go off and do a workshop or you do a presentation or you're talking to somebody be that in education or in industry or in the community and you realize that like there's actually not a significant number of people um with the same mindset as you, asking the same questions or doing the same stuff or playing, experimenting, whichever way you look at this, whether it's the discourse, the debate, the actual activities that are going on, you realize that the there are, you know, to try and quantify to try and understand how many people are doing this is actually quite difficult. So, so I I constantly play between spaces of going, "Oh, oh, yeah, everybody's, you know, and things And then suddenly we're back to oh well actually no there's a lot of people who who've never even signed on to chat GPT or never don't even know what Bing chat is or have never been to Google Bad or anything like that and and so there's those people there and then there's these people who might have had a little play and then don't really understand the significance or have not had the time how whatever that sentence means. And then and then there's people who who who are doing the the core things sort of like saving themselves time um in their workflow whether that be education or not but have not are not moving on from there or not concerning themselves with the the next big thing and and rightly so in a lot of ways because trying to get hold of what is the next big thing is a challenge in itself you know yeah that's that's that's so true and I and I do I do resonate with that a lot with that echo chamber thing I think about Elon Musk quite a bit well not generally about him but but the way that he's in his own world and and viously the people that I follow around AI and education like yourself, you know, often now my feed is is an echo chamber of everybody doing amazing stuff with AI and then I go into a school and some some uh schools are doing pockets of excellence for some teachers, but there's a lot of people who are not doing anything or don't even care about anything. Exactly like you said. So, so I do worry about that myself. I think you're spot on. Yeah. And even the even I think the social media platforms that people are sharing their practice on is really desperate at the moment because there's a lot of people still hanging on to Twitter because they've been used or sorry X now or whatever we're supposed to um that are hanging on to that space or or um are still in those Facebook groups. I mean if if you seen the Facebook group there's thousands of people in it and most of those people are going how do you sign on to chat GPT? I'm like where you know what are these people doing? Where are they? You know I'm like but you know and these are worldwide sort of groups but clearly uh I sit now largely within LinkedIn and that's where I see this fertile community but LinkedIn is not a comfortable space for educators it's not it's still full of marketing speak the business type things it's still full of a lot of people trying to sell their wares and those kinds of things and that doesn't sit comfortable with educators and rightly so you have to in a way like you're saying is like your feed is constantly filled with these people but that's because the algorithms working for you, isn't it? At the beginning, you would have to develop that and that that's not a comfortable space. And as much as I encourage people to come to LinkedIn, people people don't feel that comfortable there, it's definitely not educators in a in in a large proportion. So, it's quite interesting to watch that happen. Um, and I think a lot of people are floundering around waiting for the next big thing in in social media and trends began. Some people jump to that, but I don't know that kind of a bit of a strange. Yeah, there's no hashtags and things. It's got to find anything. Yeah, it's a bit of a soft start, isn't it? Is it going to go anywhere? So, I think that doesn't help right now either, in terms of that sharing. And I do think as going back to the original point, Dan, is that what are people supposed to be looking at? That's a big question. You know, it's not defined, is it? Even the word AI is not defined. Agi is not defined. And and I think that sense of unease, that sense of unknown, and the fact that you know, um, many times before we've had these false doms and then you've got people like myself going, "No, this isn't a false dorm and this is going to completely change everything." I think that in itself uh has a variety of effects on people, some of which are not that positive. You know, it creates this whole it sort of atmosphere of oo maybe I shouldn't go there, maybe I shouldn't. And then the whole banning thing and the plagiarism thing and all these you get this real very very sort of spooky sort of um environment for some people or you know the sense of the unknown I think you know yeah that's so true um such a good insight there because well you know in terms of your school the yourself and what are you doing with the school and how you how are you managing staff and and doing PD in your own school and other schools I've seen you you know around on the road quite a bit as well what what are you doing to manage that you know what kind of things you doing with the teachers well I think it's really Um it'd be really interesting or it's really interesting for to me for me to share the insight of this school because where we sit at the moment is actually quite a challenge as well in respect of we've gone at we've gone at this uh you know all guns blazing. We've been embracing this on a staff level and on a student level as well but that creates its own issues as well. It's not it doesn't make it comfortable or more comfortable. It creates its own problems. So what I mean by that is from the start of the year We've never banned this. We've um had PD from the beginning. My role has focused a lot on this. I've run PD sessions from the beginning. We have staff faculties who have their own chat GPT account. We look at different uh tools. We've developed programs, resources, um the course that I developed um all the staff have done. We're now building a student course with students involved in that. Um yeah, so very forward faces. We've run workshops and invited the schools in um and and you know and train them and upskilled them. But as I say that doesn't mean to say that that makes it easier for us because in a recent PD just at the beginning of uh of last week um I ran a session on differentiation where my provocation was that differentiation now can be considered no longer the teacher's responsibility because AI tools allow students to take their own personalized route um like their own personalized approach to learning. So is it now the teacher's job to differentiate the lesson or if you provide the tools and you provide the understanding around the use of the tools can the students not differentiate for themselves? That's a really good point, doesn't it? Yeah. So I mean it's it's a big provocation but I mean arguably if if if we do this in the appropriate way it's it's got some merits to it. So the as I say there well why does why is that why is that difficult? because that's challenging to people, isn't it? I'm starting to challenge people's practice there, but also in constructing that session that I did, it was only a 20-minute session as part of um focusing on special needs and those kinds of things um in PD. And um when constructing that session, the the question was, you know, like um how can AI be used to differentiate um teaching and learning? And typically, you would do that by probably using a chatbot to construct differentiated versions of a lesson. But I didn't approach it like that. I to I turned it completely on its head and went and went with this provocation over here. So in a way that would work for some teachers who are confident, but it wouldn't work for some teachers who were lacking confidence, you know. So I'm taking a big step there. So we've got to understand that even though we've approached this head on, we've still got teachers in this school who are not confident with the technology, who are not devoting as much time as some of the others who still cons who who still consider you know um some more traditional practices than some more forward thinking practices who are still teaching within assessments where they're required to do an exam and they're required to do revision. So just because you want to move things forward a thousand kilometers an hour there's some people who are still back here who still working on a horse and car and that's the nature of technology integration. It's not changed. this is, you know, just because AI's come along, you still got the same issues that um any technology integration brings to you. So, I think it's important to understand and recognize that despite the fact you may be in a forward thinking school, you're still facing some of the same issues. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. There's a couple things I'd like to unpack with you there because I think the where you leading globally and you you know obviously it's a passion of yours and I've been following your work for years and years and years around student agency. You mentioned there about the student side of it. How how have you managed to like what have you done with students to kind of bring you know as a parent I've talked to my kids about chat GBT? I've watched them do stuff in chat GBT. I've watched teacher feedback as well around them using chat GBT and not and getting caught and getting in trouble for cheating and and and I've seen some amazing stuff that my kids have done which is which has kind of helped them engage with their learning. But what where have you approached it from a students point of view? What what are you doing with your courses for students? Um, I'd like to tell you we have some uh comprehensive, you know, mapped out plan. We don't I don't think anybody has that. Some people might be developing that, but you know, this thing has moved so fast and came on us so suddenly that, you know, it's it's as much reactive as it is proactive. And when it's proactive, it's definitely not proactive in this substantially planned out and um, you know, tried and tested approach. It's it's working on the fly, is Isn't it? So you know we have in year 7 u we've done a lot within digital technologies as a subject because I lead that. So that's given me the chance to influence that program. So we've done a whole sort of immersion and exposure around AI what it means some of the tools around let's have a play with this and let's use AI to come up with um ideas to solve problems in in a design thinking approach. So we've done that. Then I've just started this semester uh the idea of using um chat bots to um to program or to understand computational thinking because if you dissect uh computational thinking into its elements that's exactly what chat bots do they've got pattern recognition they there's decomposition within there it's about algorithms you know and so on and so forth so um using that uh idea and I'm I've I've only just started teaching that this semester so we've got that going on and then I started a digital leader group being new to the school student digital leaders that's what my PhD is about so I started that program but as I say been new to the school that's only in its early stages and um yeah and that has to fit in with everything else in a very busy school so those students um have helped with some workshops they're currently helping to create this student program so like the course I have for teachers this is going to be a course that every student within the school except year 12 who will have just about left by then so by the the end of this term all students will have to sit this course in like their mentor time you know in sort of pastoral time um and that will teach them the basics around um AI some understanding but it will be about responsible use ethical use and how to it'll be upskilling them how to prompt basically because our mindset is if we upskill our students to prompt better then the issue of plagiarism begins to change over to responsible use better use better referencing arguably could mean that they can cheat more sophisticated in a more sophisticated way, but then we get into this whole question of what is cheating. So, give you an idea of what students are doing. We're also uh just about to this term we're going to run a parents and community session where students are going to be involved in that. We're bringing parents um to give them an idea of how they can use the AI technologies primarily chat bots in their own um workplace, you know, and it'll also give an idea of of the power of this technology. So, it's opening minds up. It's sharing and getting students involved. But despite all this, I could walk into any lesson and indeed I I had these experiences last week and there's still a significant number of students going, I don't touch this technology or fearing the touching of this technology or of unsure of where to go with their technology. So, despite all this work, we've still got mixed messages out there. So Nick, we've talked a lot about AI and you've been doing heaps on this and we talked about student agency and stuff, but one of the big things is assessment. Some people think this is going to be a technology that's going to support us with assessment and I know we've talked about this for quite some time with my kids um and and we've talked about the you know you you did a post on LinkedIn I think the other day as well about you know assessment. What are your thoughts on on AI and assessment? Well, it definitely creates a lot of upheaval especially in the short-term period. So, even today I was sat um stood talking with a teacher who was um talking about turn it in and talking about plagiarism checkers as an English teacher and and looking at a piece of work which was which was way above the standard that the student would typically produce. And what do you do about that? And it's okay talking about plagiarism checkers don't work. Um and if you're a positivist about AI as I am, you still got that reality that teachers are in this situation where they're having to deal with numbers of students who are inappropriately, irresponsibly using AI perhaps purposefully, perhaps unintentionally uh all that gray area that we talk about and it creates an extra workload for that teacher. That's the reality of what's happening right now with teachers who are setting work and then getting student students to hand in that work, especially when it's in written format. And yeah, they have to be more diligent in the way they look at that work. They have to then try and assess that work and go, hm, this doesn't seem quite right. And then what do I do about that? Then you might have to have a conversation with the student. You might have to go back and get them to redo it. That's all extra workload, isn't it? So that's a reality. It is a reality. I don't deny that for a second. But fundamentally, we need to get to a point where we address those issues. So, how do we address those issues? So, number one, we've got to look at assessment redesign because by redesigning assessments, we can make them um deal with some of the issues we've talked about though uh there in terms of um how AI can be easily used in an irresponsible way or in a nonappropriate way to um to to plagiarize an assignment or to go somewhere over the edge in irresponsible use because there is gray area between plagiarism and non-plagiarism and everything in between. So yeah, assessment redesign to begin with. Then there's also the skilling up. So when I say skilling up, I'm talking about the skilling up of students. So you've got to make students more knowledgeable and more skillful in the way they use AI. Now the argument against that from some people is, well, hang on, what are you talking about? You're going to make them better at plagiarizing. Yeah. Now we got to be careful with this word plagiarizing because what does that actually mean? And we could spend was talking about that. But the point of the matter is is you've got to decide within your context, within your school. I believe and we believe in our school and we've decided this that we are going to invest in upskilling our students, giving them more knowledge on what is acceptable and what is not, what is responsible, what's irresponsible. These are the gray areas where you need to be consulting with your teacher in that class, different context in the class and you need to un understand what when you go too far and That comes down to values, doesn't it? So, you've got to instill those values in students of going when you're not learning anything from this, that is plagiarism. When you're reducing your learning from this, that begins to be plagiarism and all that gray area in between. And are we going to get this totally right? No. But we're going to get it more right than not doing it. And that's what we believe at the moment. So, it leaves assessment in this sort of quandry, doesn't it? At the moment, it really does. And you could and you could sort of understand in a way, although I in no way support this is people's default mechanism is go well I'm going to go back to a written exam. Yeah. But if you go down with that every time someone gets knocked down by a car then you're going to take cars off the road at you and go back to a horse and car and then every time a horse knocks somebody over you're going to get rid of kill all the horses. You know where where does this end? You know you know it's so so it's so true, isn't it? You're absolutely right. And I think um yeah it and always people struggle to change things in education. because the system's too big. But I think individual educators like yourself who influential and have amazing impact and I'm looking at the thoughtfulness that you put on this entire AI debate across Australia and globally. You know, it's it's absolutely phenomenal the discourse is happening and the teachers that are taking it forward and do you think that we losing some people along the way here? Yeah, that's an interesting one and I do wonder about those things, you know, because It just continue to shock me when I get outside of my bubble that I'm in. And I know it's a bubble. It's an echo chamber. And I go out there and there's still people who are nowhere near touching this thing. There's still some people who touched it at the beginning going, "Oh, not for me." There's still people who are going, "Oh, no, that won't have any effect at all. Lady card." Yeah, there's all these different things going on. And what could I put a figure on how many people are invested in this? I still think it's nowhere near a minority. In fact, I still think it's a minority. Maybe 30% of teachers around the world are actively using AI. 30%, you know, less way way less than 30% are teaching kids um to use AI. I believe it's well, you know, significantly less than that. And we're talking just in senior school here. So, if that's if that's the case, then, you know, the picture is is startling in in a way, isn't it, as to the realities of what's going on, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I read a good quote actually the other day when they were talking about people are going to use those tools. I forget who did the quote originally you know about you know it's it's about that teachers who are going to use technology oh really ruining this quote but it was sort of like teachers who use technology are going to perform better than those that don't you know in in their classroom essentially and it was I was reading a quote today from Steven Reed one of my Microsoft colleagues actually he does a lot of games bing from Scotland there and he he he'd come across a quote from Donald Thompson. He's a LinkedIn engineer and he was talking about generative models. Um, sometimes they being perceived as tools like a wrench or a hammer, whereas we should be thinking of them in terms of like a orchestra and a violin. And the fact is that you could give a violin to anybody and or any instrument I suppose, but he he used a violin and it was a case of you know some teachers might use that violin and get some chords out of it. Some might be able to do really well and you know perform a mass the piece on that violin just the usage the depth of usage of some of these tools and I've seen that a lot in in my friends and family as well where they don't know how to prompt they don't know how to use those tools and there's a lot of teachers out there that might not know any depth to that they look at it like a search engine and and then they they're not actually having discourse with the the large language model or anything and then they kind of don't get anything out of it um that's my concern I suppose. Yeah, I really like that. I really I haven't seen that but I really like that and that I think that goes back to or it resonates with me in when people start to talk about efficiency. There's no doubt at all that this has an efficiency angle to it. It makes us more efficient. It cuts out all this time. But I don't think that's actually where the beauty of this thing is. I don't think it's where the power of this thing is. And it's not the thing that attracts me. Oh yes, of course it makes me more efficient. But that's lowhanging fruit, isn't it? The reality is is in this, you know, it's not a blunt instrument like hammer. It It can be used as a blunt instrument, but it can also be used as a fantastic way of changing things, of affecting things, of creating things, of of uh you know, adding to the richness of something that you're doing or complet or being able to do something completely new. Like for instance, when I did the projects with year one at my school and I was able to uh look at indigenous creatures, bring these to life very very quickly using AI image generators from their words. So getting their words of what they thought this mythical beast would look like and then bring them to life. Amazing. Looking in front of their eyes. These year ones were just honestly the look on their face. It was I can tell you now it was one of the probably the most precious moment I've had in education to watch these kids just go wow. Yeah. And that some of these were creating the most evil looking things. Some of them were creating the most weird looking things. But to them it was like the revelation of the way it unfolds in an image generator on on Discord, you know, that's phenomenal because like and that's what blows my mind about teachers generally the the application like I was in a I was in a doing a session in a school in New South Wales like a month or so ago and you know doing the general you know this is what generative AI is and then the teachers had used it and one lady was talking about the way she'd re tried to get kids to reverse engineer um an image that she created in midjourney. So she put some fantastical prompting, you know, like a unicorn in a bustling Tokyo street at night with a graffiti style of bank seal like that, you know, this and then they had to come up. So she was using it to promote their English language by getting them to write a descriptive sentence about that image. It was like phenomenal and it blew my mind. Like you've just blown my mind with that example as well. You're like, "So neither neither of them are about efficiency either. Neither of them are a blank instrument on education. Both of them are highly sophisticated but using something so simple that's so fast that that's not just making something that's not about going oh this makes my life easier that actually goes this is a completely different dimension of possibilities isn't it and that's really think I really think that's where the richness is. So I really like that idea of we shouldn't consider these tools in respect to being hammers. or the low-level tools. We should consider these in being highly sophisticated pieces of equipment which you can use in a very crude way but you can also use them in a highly sophisticated way as well. Yeah. The way you you the way you think about AI, you know, I hope you know this and I'll say it on this podcast. The way you thinking about AI and education is extremely impactful and really thoughtprovoking. Um the the angle that you come out with all of these things is just is just phenomenal. I I've come across as your number one fan. It's like a scene from misery. But um the um but like I hope it doesn't have the same ending. Now but but honestly like I really appreciate you jumping on this podcast today. In terms of people listening in to this, you know, who are you following at the minute? Who would you suggest for the teachers listening to this podcast at the minute? Who should they be following to get insights like you were giving to education. Who are you key friends in in that area? I think I mean definitely Darren Coxin just cuz he's an experimentter with different LLMs. So Darren Coxin is constantly like playing with his L&Ms. But not just playing with them, he's then creating examples of what they do in a teaching and learning context on a daily basis. It's a phenomenal amount of work. Very very considered approach. Uh highly experienced in leadership. Ethan Mollik of course because he's there on that research side of things and he's putting it out on that level. Then you've got uh I mean and the horrible thing is I'm going to miss people out which is really horrible. But yeah, definitely those people. Then you've got uh yeah, you've got Melissa McBride doing wonderful things in the metaverse and those kinds of things and pushing the idea of online school and different school modings and getting us to think differently, you know. So people I mean I could go on and on and on about different people in different spaces. I mean, you've got Leon Furs with his whole ethical stuff and how he approaches writing and things like that, which is really powerful stuff in that domain. Um, yeah. Um, I mean, the what what it really is about is just getting involved more than me naming names. That's the worst. I think it really is just going, you know, and I'm not saying, "Oh, come and follow me because I want you to follow me." That's not not it's not what I want at all. What I think is is just, you know, the more people get involved richer the the the discussion becomes. You know, I could tell you there's people that don't really post so much that doing mega powerful things. For instance, Joe Ray at my school here. You won't see much from her in LinkedIn, but she's working in a junior school with year ones to year six having ethical debates on AI, you know, with you know, it's like that's phenomenal, isn't it? It's madness. But, you know, that's what's going on. So, there's there's so much richness on and offline. But I think the more as you talked about, the more and more people get involved in in the discourse that's going on, the better better we're all going to be because the reality is is that we we can be taken over, not taken over, that's the wrong word. We can be pressured into what AI wants us to be or we can shape it and model it how we want it to be. And I honestly believe that. I I do believe there will come certain points in life where that's not possible. It will do things we don't want it to do. But the more we impose what we want from it, especially in an education context, the more power we're going to have. And and I know you work for one of those big organizations with that power. But but I'd like to believe that the more pressure we put on big organizations like you work for, the the more they're going to know that actually if we're going to please our customers, we're going to have to listen to what they say. Whereas, if you just impose models on people and it's not what they want, then you're just going to be sitting back and taking the punches, aren't you? That's the reality. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yeah. And AI has the power to completely dominate and take over. So, we've got to make key decisions as to how we want it in this life because regardless of who you work for, Dan, or whatever we do in life. You want to have some autonomy, don't you? You don't want some digital bot whatever controlling your life. You want to decide when to turn it on and off. There's a great there's a good book that I'm reading at the moment, 2041, um, which is half fiction, half reality. It's called 2041, an AI book by K Fui and Chen Quifan. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. If you have a look at that. Yeah, I'll put it in. I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. It tells stories about, you know, it's almost like a black mirror of telling stories. So, the fiction stories and then the commentary goes with it. So, you start to see these examples playing out in 2014. You know, I I I listen to a pod uh not podcast, it's like a YouTube clip the other day of of a guy that I follow. I've mentioned in the podcast a few times, a guy called Rick Bato and he bit he um interviewed uh Beyond from um uh ABBA uh and talked about the way the AI it was all about AI and music and it was it was released yesterday or the day before. I'll put that in the show notes as well. But that was also fascinating as well from a creators point of view and the way that um you know similar what you said about the horse and cart thing. You know currently there's a big push you know in in the studios and things about AI um doing you know movies and all the movie uh you know stars kind of worried about their roles and the like and all of that IP but it's also the same in the music industry where people are standing up for that but but again you can keep going backwards and you could say the people standing up about you know against AI say people like Sting or whatever it might be you could always say well actually a composer back in the 1800s would have said he's cheating by using electronic instruments and editing and you know auto tune and everything and then you go back further and you when does when does the music instrument stop, you know? So, um it is phenomenal. I there was actually a debate I was in in that the weekend. So, if you look up Richard Andrews post about what Nick Cave has been saying how Oh, that's right. Songwriting and I I started to s my own experiences, you know, in music and and you know, and the reality is is that you know, one of my favorite songs actually of all time is by Nick Cave, but it's a very very overproduced song. It's a ballad, but it's a it's an amazing song, but there's no way he sounds like that. It's been really, really, you know, it's been beautifully produced. It's the piano on it is gorgeous. His voice, but he doesn't sound like that. It's very, you know, the studio work that's gone into making him sound amazing. It's haunting is the song. So, it's called Into My Arms if you've never heard it, but yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful song. Yeah. But you listen to that song, there's no way that he can sing that like that just with a microphone and The microphone's technology, isn't it? There's no way you can just So, so you know, you know, it's as you're saying, where does it start and stop, you know, but but you know what, you know, to to to bring this to a close, what what's really been insightful listening to you today as well is is year ones, you know, I think like you you you shared some stories today about year ones utilizing the use of AI and technology um and and to further their education using those tools. Um sometimes for me when STEM was a thing, you know, and everybody was doing STEM as a thing. Um, it was, you know, I I I I wrote that as well because I was STEM lead at Microsoft for a while. And, you know, it's something I really passionate about, still am, but, you know, STEM was a thing and still is a thing. And and people used to say to me, you know, I'd go into secondary schools sometimes and say they'd say, "Oh, I can't use um micro:bits or Adafruit with my kids in year seven because they don't know coding and we do that in year nine and I'd always go have you seen what kids are doing in year four this kid's doing microbit in year three and it used to always frustrate me so it's good to hear examples from younger kids cuz I know you know my daughter's in primary school and she's excited about this technology she's engaging with it and people don't even realize sometimes no and you're right I mean I think we underestimate um you know the power of technology especially with young innoc in young innocent hands and you know very well about my work with empowering students just let them free let them you know don't be worried about what they're going to do and you know let them break it in other words let them break it that's that's the whole message I always go with technology like learn from them learn with them because you're not going to win it's not you're not going to win this race you know yeah yeah you're right well thank you Nick really appreciate it thank you so much for joining uh the the podcast today and sharing your wisdom on the call. Uh, and uh, good luck to leads next week. I'm like, it's only the start of the season and I'm already like worried about Swansea. Um, but thank you so much again for joining today. I really appreciate. Keep up the impact. You know, hopefully you know the impact you're having in the educational community globally and in Australia. And I'll share any of the links. You know, look at the show notes if you're listening. Um, Nick's got some great websites and shares all of his stuff online. So, I'll put some of those links, but Thank you again. See you later. Cheers, man.