In the season finale of Educating to Be Human, we turn our attention to rural education and the transformative power of community-centered learning. Host Lisa Petrides is joined by Kassi Talbot, educator, social justice advocate, and principal of Pescadero Elementary School, a small rural school on California's coastside. Born and raised in the same community she now leads, Kassi shares how participatory and community-based education, and a deep commitment to equitable, open education can drive lasting positive outcomes — not just in remote or non-urban schools, but across all systems of learning. This episode explores what it means to center humanity, care, and connection in education, reminding us that the lessons from small schools and rural communities often hold the keys to building a more inclusive and transformative future for all learners.

Kassandra "Kassi" Talbot, EdD, is an educator and principal dedicated to her local rural schools. With nearly a decade of classroom experience teaching middle school social studies and high school Spanish, Kassi centers her work on antiracist and equitable practices. Her doctoral research, "Reclaiming the Story: YPAR in the Rural Social Studies Classroom," explored how youth can (re)claim history and stories through participatory action research. Kassi serves her community through local leadership, human rights training, and youth mentorship. She lives on the California coast with her dogs, and extended family — where she's working to build the kind of community her students will one day lead.

LinkedIN: www.linkedin.com/in/kassandratalbot

https://www.lhpusd.com/

Today, we're revisiting one of our favorite conversations from Educating to Be Human — and much has changed since we first recorded it. Back in September 2024, Lisa sat down with Ruth Mostern, Professor of History and founder of the World Historical Gazetteer, to explore how our sense of place influences the way we understand our past and our identities.

Through her groundbreaking project, the World Historical Gazetteer, Ruth enables historians and the public alike to visualize and contextualize historical events and relationships geographically, transforming static history into dynamic, place-based storytelling.

Since that conversation, we've seen how place names and their meanings continue to shift - and spark debate - reminding us just how deeply history is woven into geography. This year, Ruth and her team also launched something brand new: the Institute for Spatial History Innovation, or ISHI, at the University of Pittsburgh. https://ishi.pitt.edu/ - now the new home for the World Historical Gazetteer.

Resources:

The Institute for Spatial History Innovation: ishi.pitt.edu

Ruth Mostern at University of Pittsburgh: www.history.pitt.edu/people/ruth-mostern

In this episode of Educating to be Human, Lisa is joined by Jon Pedigo, known by some as Father Jon. He is a longtime social justice advocate and activist, faith leader within the Catholic diocese of San Jose, and the new executive director of People Acting in Community Together, or PACT. In conversation, they explore what it means to rebuild connection in a time of deep division, how faith communities can act as ancient technologies for compassion and healing, and the power of grassroots organizing to help people claim their own agency and voice, particularly in difficult times.

Fr. Jon Pedigo, a Bay Area native, has been active in civic affairs and social justice causes for over 35 years in the Bay Area.

Working with the interfaith community of Silicon Valley, labor, community organizers, and civil rights activists, Fr. Jon was just named the Executive Director for PACT, People Acting In Community Together. In his previous position as the Director of Advocacy and Community Engagement for Catholic Charities of Santa Clara County, he developed a methodology of trauma-informed community organizing for people living in chronic poverty, refugees, and immigrant families. Fr. Jon has been acknowledged as a social justice advocate for immigrants and social change by many local organizations and received commendations from various public officials.

Resources:

https://www.cliniclegal.org/stories/grupo-de-solidaridad-brings-community-together

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2020/06/11/what-church-san-jose-doing-prepare-post-covid-future

https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/socal-connected/how-california-went-from-anti-immigration-to-sanctuary-state

Transcript:

00:00:06 - 00:33:16

Jon Pedigo:

The core of our humanity and what defines us isn't these separations, but it's our ability to care and heal. And through that kind of impulse religions kind of evolved as a technology to pull out of the best of humanity, our ability to connect to each other and to connect to the divine.

00:33:18 - 01:04:06

Lisa Petrides

This is Educating to be Human. And I'm your host, Lisa Petridis, founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management in Education. In each episode, I sit down with ordinary people, creating extraordinary impact people who are challenging notions of how we learn, why we learn, and who controls what we learn. Thank you very much for listening.

01:04:08 - 01:45:23

Lisa Petrides

I'm so delighted to be speaking with Jon Pedigo today. Also known by some as Father Jon and he is a longtime social justice advocate and faith leader within the Catholic Diocese of San Jose, California, and the new executive Director of People Acting in Community Together or PACT. Pact. And in our conversation, we explore what it means to rebuild connection in a time of deep division and how faith communities can act as ancient technologies for compassion and healing.

01:46:00 - 01:56:00

Lisa Petrides

And the power of grassroots organizing to help people claim their own agency and voice. So welcome, Jon and thank you for being with us here today.

01:56:01 - 01:58:01

Jon Pedigo:

Thanks, Lisa.

01:58:03 - 02:17:24

Lisa Petrides

So we're living in a time of fragmentation, right? Deep polarization, ICE raids in cities, authoritarian impulses on the rise. I mean, even technology is threatening to replace human connection. What do you see as the defining challenges of this moment?

02:18:01 - 02:51:22

Jon Pedigo:

What are defining challenges of this moment really are in just the profound loss of relationships that are in our community, the sort still profound separation, the divorce that happens in families because of ideology and politics. And in many cases, for good reason that people just simply aren't safe in their homes or in their families. They're not feeling safe in their churches and not feeling safe in their workplaces.

02:51:24 - 03:13:06

Jon Pedigo:

They can't really speak their mind. They can't speak out of their heart. So it is not just policy and politics, but it is this very bizarre impulse of division that really is more like a divorce and not a disagreement. And that's kind of where we're coming from on this.

03:13:08 - 03:23:18

Lisa Petrides:

So in the face of this fear and hostility and division, what role can faith communities and spiritual traditions play in bringing people together?

03:23:20 - 04:09:03

Jon Pedigo:

Yeah, that's a great question. I was actually giving a talk the other day, and I brought this, I used religion as a kind of explaining it as, like an ancient technology that, is used to enhance, magnify, amplify our most human dimension, which is compassion and caretaking. Like Margaret Mead said, the sign that she found. And I think there's an old saying, but she just said that the the oldest sign, the oldest indication of human civilization is a healed femur, because that would indicate that the humanoid that was injured was cared for rather than left.

04:09:06 - 04:42:19

Jon Pedigo:

And if you're kind of cutting one's losses that this member of this group of humanoids had felt that it was important that we need to kind of stay together and including this weak person this kind of this link that isn't the strongest. And so that indicated that there was, a decision of care. So that would indicate that at the core of our humanity and what defines us isn't these separations, but is our ability to care and heal.

04:42:21 - 05:13:00

Jon Pedigo:

And through that kind of impulse. Religion's kind of evolved as a technology to pull out of the best of humanity, our ability to connect to each other and to connect to the divine. However, that was defined by early human groupings and societies to find a way to protect and to nurture each other, and especially to pay attention to the weakest among us.

05:13:02 - 05:37:23

Jon Pedigo:

And so that religion, that dimension is dependent on three things. First is that we're connected to each other, that we are connecting out of concern that there is a there's a connection, a social bond, a connection that kind of a I don't know what you would call it, a kind of a covenant. Although that covenant with that concept evolved much, much later.

05:37:23 - 05:54:15

Jon Pedigo:

But there is a a real bond of connectivity. The second thing that's important to recognize is that this bond is connected to actual everyday decisions, right? You know how we're going to actually do things, how we're going to run our how we're going to run our tribe, how we're going to run our our society are going to run this village.

05:54:21 - 06:25:06

Jon Pedigo:

It's with that concern. And the third part is, of course, the divine is that, that that cover all overall sense of that. We stand before some kind of force that could be defined as a nature, could be defined as a spiritual contact, a certain existential dimension of us, that we're connecting to that. So those three pieces kind of bring together what what kind of early religions, religious systems.

06:25:08 - 07:13:21

Jon Pedigo:

And so religion is that technology. The work that I do today, you know, hundreds of thousands of years later is, you know, it hasn't changed that much, especially in community organizing, that we spend the time to understand the impact of, of injuries caused by poverty, violence, lack of access to housing, the constant fear of lives being separated, destroyed by deportation, or just the trauma of having violent experiences, of having to leave one's own country, not out of one's own will, but out of necessity, working with people that have seen death, that have lost their children in a jungle, crossing a river, in the Darien Gap.

07:14:02 - 07:34:09

Jon Pedigo:

People walking across countries. These are people that we know. These are people that are our base. And there's this trauma that's happened. And so our work is, first of all, understanding the human reality that we are broken by this. And so, you know, when we talk about human organizing, it's not just jumping into an issue like if, I'm snapping my fingers, ha.

07:34:11 - 08:07:08

Jon Pedigo:

It's not like an issue of jumping into like, let's agitate people for change. Our work is doing trauma informed organizing, which is really addressing to understand the dynamic of broken realities, of broken dreams, of of separation and understanding that and and trying to pull out of that person their ability to see themselves not as a victim, but as a protagonist of their own destiny, which means that we we work and get people to move forward in that, in that place.

08:07:08 - 08:08:19

Jon Pedigo:

So that's a starting point we go to.

08:08:19 - 08:30:01

Lisa Petrides

Yeah. And I want to ask you about that. So I think what I've just heard you say is sort of talking about how faith is underlying this sort of driver, this very powerful driver of collective action and belonging. And I want you to speak a little bit more about community organizing, because I know that's really central to your work today.

08:30:03 - 08:45:07

Lisa Petrides

So if you could tell us a little bit about the organization that you work with - PACT - and you've already described how that work intersects with your calling as a faith leader. But tell us a little bit more about that. And, and, and how you carry out this work.

08:45:08 - 09:18:01

Jon Pedigo:

Okay. Before I do that, before too, I just want to kind of make, a kind of a little footnote that the word faith is not understood in the same way by different religious traditions. And faith, for some, it's a subscription to Creed-le statements. For others, it's an existential stance before the universe. So, like, we work with Buddhists that don't have, a particular, subscription to deity or anything like that.

09:18:06 - 09:51:09

Jon Pedigo:

So, so. And we were the Unitarians that don't that really don't have a specific God to which they worship. And then we also work, obviously with traditional Christians, Jews, Muslims. But when we work in interreligious spaces, as with, faith leaders, we understand that, you know, we're working with multiple religious traditions and what we try to find as what's that common piece around that sort of going back to what my work is, we try to understand what's that healing factor?

09:51:09 - 10:34:06

Jon Pedigo:

What's that healing dimension in that tradition? How is that lived out? How does that experience of being in this particular community that has rituals, that has, prayers or sacred texts, sacred practices or special practices that foster a healing process and that that bring people together that talk about the power of gathering and the necessity of bringing all people together, that we this is the kind of work that we do because we see those ancient technologies as ways in which we can create spaces of healing and spaces of self-empowerment and discovery.

10:34:08 - 10:55:19

Jon Pedigo:

When we kind of create committees, they're often created out of a particular faith tradition. But these different committees that are in each community, different faith communities, because we work with faith communities, they work with Unitarians, are working with Catholics, are working with Jews and working with different, Buddhists and working with people that don't have a particular spiritual home, per se.

10:55:21 - 11:21:05

Jon Pedigo:

And we're all working on this together because we're looking at the values that we belong to. These faith communities. It's great. It helps us understand who we are, gives us identity, a place and location, as it were. But more than that, it allows us to see the inherent love and community and goodness in others. And so that's that's kind of what community organizing is able to do.

11:21:06 - 12:09:18

Jon Pedigo:

It kind of fosters that, that radical hospitality and that radical listening. When we do that in a faith setting or at a setting in a church or a synagogue or Gujarat or whatever, you know, faith community, we are all across the board of different, different spaces. When you do that, you are kind of creating this moment for people to really express themselves as how they how they feel.

They want to express it. Right. You know, like a, a Baptist is going to be certainly differently expressing himself or herself or themselves than differently than a Catholic from Honduras. And so that we just kind of we as organizers, we just, we just create that space for dialog and understanding. And we try to and we work towards what, what do we have in common.

12:09:19 - 13:45:06

Jon Pedigo:

We don't kind of create find issues that would separate us and put us further into the corners. But we see what are the common realities, and the common realities are always about what's happening in our lives. What's preventing us from participating fully in society. What's preventing us from being our full, authentic selves in school or in a in a workplace or in, you know, even in our own communities, what's really going on.

And so we look at PACT to people acting in community together, that we're in 22 different congregations, and we're in Santa Clara County from Gilroy all the way up through Sunnyvale. We've given workshops and talks in Palo Alto. So it's we cover the entire county. We are currently working on four different campaigns, two very big ones, and two other smaller ones are on the back burner.

But there's still going the the two primary ones are, affordable housing and immigrants. And particularly the specific issue we're looking there is is assuring that due process is covered for all immigrants, regardless of their immigration status and or their ability to pay for a lawyer that in this country, we have, we have our our fundamental belief is due process.

And part of that is one is, is being able to be represented in the court. And then we have also, public safety, which is, you know, obviously just, you know, parks, relationship to the police, you know, violence, you know, cleanliness, traffic safety, those are part of that public policy kind of cover.

13:45:06 - 14:07:17

Jon Pedigo:

And then the other one is mental health, and that's kind of intersecting. We're fighting right now, especially with mental health crises brought on by the militarization and the military occupancy of, of different cities. That makes everybody very fearful. And we have people that are very afraid to, you know, go out to eat, go to church, take the kids to school.

14:07:23 -14:34:17

Jon Pedigo:

Kids are are not going to school as much right now. So we're seeing, just the performance, the education performance is really definitely, related to the increased presence or the threat of presence of ICE in the community. So we are very well aware of that. But we have in the past, we've had education. Education reform has been part of PACT's issues along with it.

14:34:18 - 14:45:18

Lisa Petrides

It really seems, as you were talking about this and of course, myself as an educator, all that you're talking about, I know it's about community organizing, but so much of it seems like it's a it's a form of education, right? That that.

14:45:18 - 14:45:23

Jon Pedigo:

It really is.

14:45:23 - 14:54:05

Lisa Petrides

Reorganizing itself. Is that right? You're teaching people how to connect and belong and and build resilience together.

14:54:07 - 16:04:22

Jon Pedigo:

Exactly. One of the things we do for education that we continue to do even now? It's not a specific campaign. Is most of our people are moms. Most people are making under $50,000 a year. We have one zip code where the average wage of, Latinos is at $20,000 or less. A lot of them are, amas de casa, are housewives.

Their, their partner works 2 or 3 jobs. And so their primary job is to make sure the kids are in school, that they're doing their homework. And these are moms that are monolingual and often have a, you know, have not really had a lot of experience talking to, teachers. And so we work with our leaders are, you know, learn how to, kind of work with teachers and work with the moms and getting them to show up at PTA meetings and getting them to show up in spaces like that.

So that's what can be organizing does even without a particular issue campaign around education. It is bringing leadership to people's lives and, giving capacity, a developing capacity in people to really, truly show up in all spaces.

16:04:24 - 16:36:16

Lisa Petrides

I love what you've talked about in terms of building these deep partnerships across faith traditions. We can think of a lot of examples where that is not encouraged or allowed, which seems ridiculous in some ways. Because we're all living here together. And how do we do this? But how do you you know, I guess from maybe more of the inception of why you do the work you do, but why is this interfaith collaboration essential to building these kinds of resilient communities?

16:36:18 - 19:38:01

Jon Pedigo:

Well, I want to go back to your original question about living in this broken time. Faith has been hijacked. It has been misappropriated by the far right. In fact, in all fascist regimes of the modern era from the 1900s to today, the rise of authoritarian style leadership comes in a, by taking a thin veneer of religiosity and claiming moral high ground, claiming to patria and, and moral good and all of these kinds of things are kind of melded together and they've, they've created these, these forces like Franco's Spain, we're looking at, we're looking at obviously Hitler.

We're looking at a number of other regimes that the present, the modern Russia, Central American, leadership, South American leadership. And in this present United States, the rise of authoritarianism is is through the misappropriation of religion. And so it's really, really important that just your meat, potatoes, religious people that go to church understand what's happening to their own communities, their own religions, and how it's been how it's been kind of taken out of out of its appropriate context.

So it's very disheartening to me to see religious leaders from mainstream churches, including me, in my own tradition, my own Catholic tradition, where they, in a sense, visibly and verbally apologize for and support figures and people in power that are associated with the rise of authoritarianism. It's very disheartening to see that it's confusing to people.

But I think with the advent of with social media and just a lot of conversations, which is what can the organizing does, we create these spaces for neighbors to speak to neighbors and parishioners to speak to parishioners and people to speak across different race, racial, ethnic, economic lines. And these conversations are happening all over the place where people are recognizing, wait a second, this is not our conversations are yielding a very different conclusion than what I'm being taught by either reading it in the paper or hearing it on mainstream news, or being heard preach from a pulpit that there's something else that's here that that we need to understand. And so people, when they're connecting people to people, they're starting to see through this, this BS.

19:38:03 - 20:03:18

Lisa Petrides

Yeah I mean I kind of want to say what is it these that these faith traditions could be doing differently today to sort of rebuild trust and nurture belonging. And I love that we're seeing that in the work that you do. There's so much that's not happening that way is there's some other places that others can start. And and I have another question too.

I'm just going to throw it in, like throw it in.

20:03:18 - 20:04:01

Jon Pedigo:

Throw it.

20:04:02 - 20:16:21

Lisa Petrides

Yeah. And how do you reconcile those contradictions in your work? Right. With your training and your background? How do you reconcile those contradictions? And then I'm kind of asking, what can the rest of us do, right?

20:16:23 - 20:21:22

Jon Pedigo:

Okay. Well, I am not the best example. I wasn't raised Catholic. I was raised kind of Buddhist.

20:21:24 - 20:23:16

Lisa Petrides

Okay, tell me about that.

20:23:18 - 20:56:02

Jon Pedigo:

So yeah, my mom was Buddhist and my dad was he was Protestant, you know, Baptist slash Methodist. And they made a decision that that my brother and I would have to make decisions about what kind of religion we want to identify with. And so we were we were kind of free to choose. And, my mother, I remember her asking me, we used to have a go back and forth.

She says, why, of all the religions, you could have picked the most conservative, small minded. And I said, because, mom, it pisses you off the most. But, the.

20:56:04 - 20:57:19

Lisa Petrides

All the good choices we make.

20:57:21 - 24:41:05

Jon Pedigo:

All the good. Your parents. Right? No, it was. But, you know, for myself, when I was in college, I was, you know, it was in the middle of the Civil War in Central America. And what really struck me was I asked myself, who are the people that are really, really trying to to bring change here? And I just, you know, was reading about Oscar Romero, Saint Oscar Romero, reading about the Jesuit martyrs.

I was reading about the Maryknoll lay missionaries, the four women that were beaten and raped and killed. These are the people not to not to romanticize their deaths, but to realize that these people really were not in it for political movement. And so for me, it was like, what is it that these people are doing? So from the very beginning, I was kind of steeped in this really curiosity around liberation theology.

So I had read that even before I was even Catholic. And then later in, in grad schools, when I when I started to get into being a Catholic, and then I was in a small base community in grad school, and then after that I was took some time to discern and, what I really wanted to do with my life.

And, when I went to the seminary, I got to meet people like, the late Frank Norris, who is a progressive theologian, got to meet people like Monseigneur Boyle, who was my great mentor for many years, and he was part of the farmworker movement. So I got to meet the Chavez movement, the farmworkers movement early on, worked with labor, worked with it.

Then it was called the National Conference of Christians and Jews got to meet Jewish people and other Catholics that were interested in inter-religious dialog and what we do to work together. So throughout my formation, I was really exposed to a type of Catholicism that was more active in the world, very what they call the Vatican 2 Catholicism, that was very much interested in community organizing.

Partnering with labor, looking at partners and not just as doctrinal agreements. So I worked early on with people with religion and no religion, and that was kind of my early training. Now, of course, the churches in the time had gone much more regressive and more traditional then we have a couple new popes that are more progressive, but maybe locally there's this kind of a trend towards a traditional Catholicism in response to and I think a reaction to the progressive dimensions of Catholicism.

So it's just sort of like, you know, you just have to kind of what's your what's your anchor in this whole piece? And my anchor to me is connection to the divine, doing the meditation work I do, being connected to people that are, on the margins and the fringes of society. So I felt that that kind of work was more suited for my vocation than you're waiting in the sacristy for problems to come to me. But I felt that it was more important for me to enter into the world, to work with communities in the inner religious communities. And as long as I can keep on doing that, that's great. I really feel this is the call that I have, and it fits with my background the best.

So that's kind of where I feel I need to be. So, that's kind of where I find myself. And so that kind of work is translated into my own work and community organizing, where we ask people to make the same kind of process process of discovering their own journey to be protagonists and not just to be victims or, you know, of, of circumstance or just kind of passively accepting whatever fate has before them. But to really engage in it, to not turn away from the world, but to face it head on.

24:41:07 - 25:14:06

Lisa Petrides

So you've shared how essential it is to be out in the world where face to face with people and building community in real spaces, you know? But at the same time, I know that you do sermons online and you connect with people through Facebook, which of course is a digital platform. So how do you see that balance? Like what are the risks and what are the opportunities when spiritual work and community organizing move into these online spaces? You know, where so much of our attention is on a screen rather than in a room together?

25:14:08 - 29:40:24

Jon Pedigo:

Sure, the use of technology in organizing and in ministry I guess because I'm not doing it necessarily as Jon Pedigo, the executive director of PACT, when I do my Sunday rants on your face. Okay, but I, I'm doing it as me, as a person, as a human being who is just sort of like, has something or want to say something.

It's like, I have nothing, you know, anything big, I don't think, but it's I have a few folks that do watch and they interact. And so to me, technology is great in a sense that it's creating opportunities for conversation so that people can go back to ILR, you know, in real life. And we want people to connect because that really is the core of religion.

Religion isn't just sort of a consumption consuming something online and looking at it, but it's about that interconnectivity. It's forming this human bonds. So to me is like, whatever I say is to get us back into the world. Now, the challenge around that is that people are not always follow through folks. They just are taking what they're looking at and then they leave.

My tradition is always saying, what's the next step? What are you going to do? Community organizing says, what's the next step? What are you going to do? It's a it's a question of transformation. What are you going to do now that you've been in this conversation? How is it changing you? How is it transforming you? What are you going to do? Here is a problem...I think with the religious folks and what's going on around faith communities and technology right now is you have personalities that are driving for likes and recognition that you could tell there are certain personalities, religious personalities that are very famous and well known in the religious world, and they're interested in clicks. They're not interested in the conversation to getting you back into the community or you back into the world.

But when you don't have a community that you're kind of imbued in their lives, if you're not connecting to them, you can. It's easy for a religious leader to fool themselves into thinking, hey, I'm doing my job. I'm up here doing this great thing. I'm in my nice vestments. I'm giving my little talk. People are thanking me for the talk, and then that becomes a reward in and of itself.

But where is your. Where are you walking? Like I remember for me, we did this thing called mass on the, it, it was on the it was a strike, right. You know, on the on the strike. So we we were in a hotel in front of this hotel, and we actually had a mass right there on the street, on the picket line as a mass on the picket line.

We had a, you know, procession with songs with a mass. We had communion, we had the readings. It was all there for the workers. Many of them were Catholic, Filipino workers. And they were just like, wow, this is very, very cool. I was working with the labor union doing this thing. It was an amazing witness to show that the divine, that their work is holy work and that was really great. Now we didn't think to sit there and take videos and put it posted on there or anything like that, like I suppose it could have been really helpful, but it was more important for us to kind of stand with those workers in a very specific space to recognize that we're there to lift up their souls and to keep them strong and encourage them that this is the right thing to do. If I was at it from a technology point of view or from social media point of view, if I that was really great. I wish I could have seen it online.

Yeah, but would that have helped you get involved in in worker rights, would you have, you know, done that yourself? Would you have yourself have given money to these workers who are losing, you know, who are losing money because they're they're out there on the line. What what would that how would you have helped? You know, so it's like, yeah.

So I'm not there to entertain. I mean, that's not what we're doing and that isn't what we're supposed to be doing in churches either. We're not supposed to be entertaining people. We're supposed to be inspiring people to get them to talk to each other and to commit themselves to some damn action in the world. But to sit there and to entertain them, it's kind of like a circus poodle. And that is not what religion is supposed to be.

29:41:01 - 29:42:12

Lisa Petrides

Yeah, I think I.

29:42:12 - 29:42:24

Jon Pedigo:

Mean, I've.

29:43:00 - 29:56:16

Lisa Petrides

Seen, we've seen yeah, yeah. So we've seen a lot of those cases where religion has failed communities. Right. It's it's fueled exclusion. It's it's fueled injustice. Right. Yeah.

29:56:19 - 30:51:08

Jon Pedigo:

Like the like have you seen those like mega mega church things where they have the pastor comes kind of floating down on a string, and it's all these gimmicks and it's like a show every Sunday, and people are waving their hands and bowing and, oh my God. And I'm just thinking like, sweet baby Jesus, is this what we are reduced to?

Did did this Palestinian Jewish dude, you know, walking the dusty roads of Palestine? And did he die on the cross so that some pastor with a goofy bouffant hairdo can come floating out of the top of, you know, on a crane, to loud guitar music to pump these people up and then, you know, talk about crazy right wing stuff. Is is this what this is? This is. No, that is not religion. That is a show. And Americans love shows.

30:51:10 - 31:05:02

Lisa Petrides

Yeah. So I have to ask this, you know, in, in a, in an honest way. So in this time, right of crisis of what you've seen, you just gave an example that we know so many people have bought into. What gives you hope?

31:05:04 - 35:50:14

Jon Pedigo:

You know what gives me hope is the other day we had a bunch of women who were monolingual Spanish speakers who were very, very frightened about, you know, their prospects of, you know, being picked up any time that they had their that some of them had their work permits and some didn't, but they were on a call with lawyers who were coming up with an idea of here's how we're going to help do universal representation. We have these ideas. We're going to just do this and we want to get your opinion. And these women are saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're the ones that are directly affected. We need to be at the table where we talk about the problem and work together to figure out a design that works to fit what we're at.

So a community driven solution that even in the midst of all of this chaos is happening, there are these women who are courageous enough to show up and speak, you know, to fancy schmancy lawyers as equals, as colleagues and not having to to to apologize for their not having a law degree. These women, many of them didn't finish high school in their sending countries.

They didn't have the opportunity. They didn't have the privilege of doing that. But they're super smart and they're very dedicated and they're extremely articulate. And I looked at the organizers and, you know, my my organizing team and I said, you guys did a great job to have these people to just to sit there, at that table and, and to me to give us hope is that there are these conversations from and we belong to this Pico, California, this federation of nine nine federations like PACT, but they're all from Crescent City to San Diego.

Everyone is doing are doing house meetings. They're having people listening to each other, having conversations in, in, you know, in parks and in front of the garage, in the backyard and at someone's living room. And they're talking about what are the issues that we're facing today around, you know, censorship, around losing, losing jobs around, you know, losing your health care, around what we see, what ICE is doing.

And they're having these amazing conversations. And there's, you know, in the end of this campaign, there'll be 10,000 people that have had participated in these home conversations, these dining room table conversations, and being able to take from those conversations here are the top issues that are coming up all across the board and being able to say, this is it.

And we're capturing all of that and we're kind of showing that. So to me, that gives me hope is that we're aren't just taking it, you know, laying down. I look at Nepal, what happened in Nepal. These are young people that are rising up out of small base communities that are working together and being able to topple a government that was absolutely authoritarian and corrupt, that I look at other, other things that are happening around in other parts of California.

We have faith communities. We have a bishop in San Diego that says, I'm going to have my priests go to ICE detention facilities when people have their check ins. And I want to be sure that everyone that's there has some priest or a layperson or a parish community that is there to witness with them and support them. And in the case of being detained, there's someone's going to be there with that family.

And we're documenting these cases. We're seeing what's happening where we are not normalizing oppression. We are logging it. We are posting it, we are talking about it. We are remembering it. So that gives me hope. I think the fact that I work with so many people that are that are really susceptible to detained detention and, and so and, and I look at how courageous they are and saying, you know, I have to fight this because if I don't know what's going happen to my kids and my my grandkids and they're these are people that they had enough and they're not hiding anymore.

They're just saying, we are going to work on this and we're going to talk to our kids about what's important. And little kids are learning not to just go and open the door. I mean, so everybody's learning what to do, you know, in, in these households where there could be some problems, every everybody's learning how to do this together.

And that gives me hope that no one is giving up. No one's giving up. We are working harder. We're gathering. We're listening, we're marching. We are plotting, we're planning, we're conspiring. We're working together. We're creating policies from the grassroots. This is the power about it.

35:50:16 - 36:34:09

Lisa Petrides

Yeah. It's beautiful. Thank you. You know, just kind of in closing, I want to say so to me, what you've just described, you know, the the name of this podcast is Educating to Be Human, right? And if educating to be human is about learning how to belong, to act, to care, all those things that you have just talked about, what do you think is most essential for us to carry forward?

You know, into the future? And and I want to say it's for those families you're working with, but it's for all of us, right? It's, I think it's something that we're all kind of call to action now, but what do you think is most essential for us to carry forward from this into the future?

36:34:11 - 37:32:19

Jon Pedigo:

I think that we, you are kind of hit on a couple times is really the sense that we belong to each other, to remem to to remind us that we are we are covenanted to each other, but it comes from a deep place of a broken femur that's been healed, that we that is a sign that we are taking the time to care, to care for each other, to walk no faster than the slowest member of the community.

And that the goal isn't efficiency, it's authenticity. And that we're learning a lot of other kinds of things, and we're creating that environment, where people can flourish and discover and be curious. And that's the most important part, that belonging to each other is super, super important. And I hope that I know that your audiences, a lot of them are educators and I, I, I, as I say, I serve my time by being a seventh and eighth grade teacher for a while. So I.

37:32:24 - 37:34:12

Lisa Petrides

You were a seventh and eighth grade teacher.

37:34:12 - 38:22:09

Jon Pedigo:

That I did, I did music and religion...just two thing that people just know that. Yeah, well, I don't know, but, I, I think to me, what's really powerful is that educators understand that it's not a job. It is a calling and it's creating those spaces in classrooms and learning environments. And I just hope that we can work hand in hand as community organizers and educators, because we are trying to create that safe space at home and, you know, at school and, and being consistent so that kids can be authentic and kids can be curious and that teachers can feel safe and doing what they're doing and respected.

38:22:11 - 38:27:09

Lisa Petrides

Yeah. Thank you.

38:27:11 - 38:40:20

Lisa Petrides

Before we finish, I always like to leave space for one final question, something I ask all my guests. Can you make up the title of the book that you wish more people would read?

38:40:22 - 39:06:07

Jon Pedigo:

A catechesis of organizing. You know, it's or a catechism of organizing. It's sort of like, how do you hat are the steps and and showing people how to go from step to step and, here's how you can do it. And you do not have to be a Cesar Chavez or Dolores Huerta, or a Doctor King or Mahatma Gandhi.

39:06:09 - 39:14:22

Jon Pedigo:

You can just be who you are. And it's something that everyone can do and follow the steps in this book.

39:14:24 - 39:42:15

Lisa Petrides

Thank you for this conversation today and for reminding us, at a most basic level, what it means to be human that we heal the the broken femur, as I believe Margaret Mead said. And thank you also for your incredible work in community organizing, especially during difficult times. It's a powerful reminder that being human is about how and why we show up for each other.

39:42:17 - 40:03:10

Lisa Petrides

Thank you everybody for listening to the show this week. This has been Lisa Petrides with Educating to be Human. If you enjoy our show, please rate and review us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can access our show notes for links and information on our guests. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram!

40:03:10 - 40:48:15

Lisa Petrides

Blue Sky at Edu to be human, that is Edu to be human. This podcast was created by Lisa Petrides and produced by Helene Theros. Educating to Be Human is recorded by Nathan Sherman and edited by Ty Mayor, with music by Orestes Koletsos.

In this episode of Educating to Be Human, Lisa Petrides is joined by Paul Kruchoski, a former senior diplomat at the U.S. State Department and often described as a changemaker within the institution, about the human side of public diplomacy and its deep ties to education. Far from being abstract negotiations behind closed doors, public diplomacy is about learning across borders, listening across cultures, and building the kinds of relationships that make peace possible.

Paul shares insights from his work leading initiatives like the Open Book project, which brought openly licensed educational materials to educators across the Middle East and North Africa. He also reflects on how programs like Fulbright create lasting networks of connection, and what it means to push for change inside large bureaucracies.

Together, Lisa and Paul explore the promise and the fragility of diplomacy today.

Paul Kruchoski is a former senior U.S. diplomat and a career member of the Senior Executive Service. In his final role at the State Department, he served as the chief operating office for public diplomacy, managing a $1.5 billion budget and 5000 person global organization. His won the State Department's Sean Smith Award for Innovation in the Use of Technology.

Previously, Paul led the creation and growth of the Research and Evaluation Unit (REU), which helps Public Diplomacy practitioners use evidence and knowledge to make better informed decisions. Previous assignments include Deputy Director of the ECA Collaboratory, Special Assistant in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, and several positions in the Bureau of International Organization Affairs.

He is a term member of the Council on Foreign Relations and a graduate of the University of Cincinnati. Outside of his work, Paul is an accomplished cellist.

Full Transcript:

Paul [ 00:00:00 ]When you talk about what it means to educate to be human and why public diplomacy connects into that, there's this great line from the UNESCO constitution: that since wars began in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed.

Lisa [ 00:00:22 ]This is Educating to be Human, and I'm your host, Lisa Petrides, founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management in Education. In each episode, I sit down with ordinary people creating extraordinary impact, people who are challenging notions of how we learn, why we learn, and who controls what we. Thank you very much for listening.

Lisa [ 00:00:53 ]Today on Educating to be Human I'm delighted to be speaking with Paul Kruchowski. Paul, a former senior diplomat at the US State Department who was often described as a change maker within that institution, is here with me today to explore the idea of public diplomacy. We often think of public diplomacy as simply the government's way of representing nations abroad, but at its core it is, or will be again, really about education in the broadest sense: helping people learn about one another, exchanging ideas, and humanizing differences that might otherwise feel abstract. That resonates deeply with what we have been asking here on Educating to be Human. Why is it important to cultivate the skills, values, and curiosity that allow us to connect across boundaries? Many ways, public diplomacy is about listening, engaging, and influencing all at once. And most importantly, it's about recognizing our shared humanity. So welcome, Paul. I am truly glad to have you here today. Thank you for joining me

Paul [ 00:02:08 ]; it's a delight to be here. I'm really happy to get to have this conversation with you and to share it with other people too.

Lisa [ 00:02:17 ] Great! So I think, as we get going, you know, we talk about these words, public diplomacy. And how would you explain that public diplomacy to someone, say, at a dinner table who's not heard the term before?

Paul [ 00:02:31 ] Yeah, so public diplomacy is two things: It's the way that a government engages with the public in another country and also the way that we connect people in one country with another country, right? So, government to people and people to people. And that's really different than government to government diplomacy, where you generally have people in institutional power talking, trying to work things out. And because of the different way that public diplomacy works, it has some kind of different goals to it too. And we really talk about public diplomacy being aimed at four things: Understanding informing, influencing, and building relationships between people in the United States and people in countries around the We do that through a bunch of different ways, but that's really what it is at its core. And it really comes back historically to this really interesting moment in time at the end of World War Two that also created a lot of the other institutions that we have come to know and love today. So, I think when you talk about what it means to educate, to be human, and why public diplomacy connects into that, there's this great line from the UNESCO Constitution that "since wars began in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed." The guy who wrote that is a poet and former State Department official as well, named Archibald MacLeish. He was really influential and helped write and stand up UNESCO. But he was also one of the senior-most public diplomats at that kind of early moment in the Cold War period. And I think this ethos that he embedded in the UNESCO Constitution is what animated a lot of what public diplomacy is today, right? And why we do it.

Paul [ 00:04:32 ] It's this idea that we can have a freer, more peaceful world if people understand each other, and you build those connections beyond just the government to government work

Lisa [ 00:04:44 ]Yeah, and that we thank you. I think that really helps us understand how this is important not only for governments and government to government, but people and people to people, and people to governments. And that reminds me of a project that you and I worked on, or that I was grateful and lucky enough to be part of some years ago, that was really about education diplomacy, which is something also that I think people don't think of when they think of diplomacy. And it was called the Open Book. And maybe you could tell a little bit about that project? It was it was a collaboration between the Department of Education and the U S. State Department.

Paul [ 00:05:25 ]Yeah, so the thrust of Open Book and then why we started doing it. So the idea was that we wanted to figure out ways that we could create some openly licensed educational materials in Arabic. And I think a lot of us, and particularly some of your listeners, may know about OER, open educational resources, and open education and the movement of the United States, which is really designed in a lot of ways to liberate, to bring out creativity in the educational movement and also reduce costs for a lot of people. But, you know, in a lot of other languages and places around the world, you don't even have choices about textbooks. You may not have textbooks available. You know, college students complain, I think rightfully, that they're now on the 19th edition of some core book that gets updated every other year, and you can't use the old editions. But when I, when I and many of my colleagues were talking to students at universities in the broader Arab world, they're still using textbooks where the last edition was published in the 1970s. That became a really big problem for thinking about how you cultivate an entire education sector, how you connect them across borders, but also create opportunities for them to be learning from some of the same standards and opportunities in their native language. And we really wanted to figure out how we could pull that together and do it as a joint project between the U. S. and many of our partners in the Arab world, where we have this joint interest in doing that, this joint interest in exposing people to greater ideas with fewer barriers to entry along the way. Lisa [ 00:07:13 ]Yeah, and what was quite amazing about that project is there were a group of 15 or 20 higher education faculty and administrators who came to the U. S. on an exchange and then, of course, went back the other way as well. But what was so telling about that for me, at least, as we began, was putting educators from the U. S. and from the MENA region, the Middle East North African region, together and meeting as friends and educators and talking about what the needs were of education and how they're met and not met. And when I just think about how that creates such a synergy, such a greater understanding of who we are, what we deal with in our classrooms, in our institutions, in our society, yeah, I think the idea of creating an openly licensed textbook that was more than 50 years old was certainly a goal. But I think that what surrounds that, the relationships, the understanding, the, you know, of course, the building of the materials themselves, but this other piece seems to play a much greater role when we think about, you know, what public diplomacy is like the Fulbright, right? That's another example I think of just an exemplary program. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the context of what it means when we put education into the diplomacy mix as opposed... I think people think about diplomacy as something you do around wars and, you know, or post-war or something like that, or to avoid wars. And education is such a decor as how we think about these things.

Paul [ 00:09:01 ]You're touching on something that's really fundamental about what diplomacy is, which is it is about people and relationships. It is not about always the things you do together, right, or the outcomes, or specific tangible things that manifest out of that. And I think Open Book is a really good example of that, that you know we started originally with this idea of why don't we just figure out how to write and publish an Arabic language textbook. And, as often happens when you start to think about it from a public diplomacy perspective, you don't just write a textbook and hand it off to people. That's not actually a smart or good intervention. The investment and cultivation of a relationships build something that may produce a textbook; it may produce some other things but it sustains itself over time through the power of those relationships. And I know you know I think we launched Open Book in 2016. I have talked to you several times since then, and you've stayed in touch and continued to exchange notes and do work with some of the people that you met through that program. And if we had just produced a textbook, okay it may be out there, but then we would be one and done, right? It is a thing that exists instead of a network or a community that is sustained over time. And when you think about the larger framework of how U. S. public diplomacy and how we think about education diplomacy fitting into that, it's the same idea, right? That what you are doing is you are building networks; you are building communities through the programs and experiences that people have that continue to share knowledge, continue to exchange views, continue to humanize each other even when you may see something in the news that may otherwise try to put you on opposite sides from one another. And what I found so many times in the work that I've done is when people have those genuine relationships, it's harder for people to be othered because they know someone. They know someone who lives in country X, Y, Z that we are in conflict or in tension with. And those ties are what allow a bigger picture, countries to sustain peaceful relationships with one another. When you have a place where people hate, when you have a place where people have contempt for another country, another group of people, it makes it easier to be in conflict, to be at war, to hurt someone. But when you know that they're members of a community just like yours, when you know that they have a family just like yours, that they have parents, whether they have kids or not, they have kids around them, and it just humanizes it for everyone. And I think that that has been hugely successful, not just for the United States but for the whole country. And you spoke about the Fulbright program, which is probably the best-known public diplomacy or education diplomacy program we have, where students have an opportunity to study in another country. Foreign students in the U. S., U. S. students abroad, and scholars can go through that exchange as well. And it builds these incredible ties of knowledge, but also just human relationships, that, I think, are part of why the US has been able to thrive so much over the last half century is because of that dense set of relationships that we've built around the world.

Paul [ 00:12:43 ]It's also why the Fulbright Program is kind of unique among government programming, where we co-fund it with many of the other countries that participate in it. It is a bi-national program by design. We co-own the program with each country that we run it in. They participate in the governance the same way we do. And I think that becomes a really, really valuable thing in a moment where even in the worst times we can say we still have this in common. We still have a joint interest in helping our people connect, of exchanging ideas, of growing together, of thinking about the trajectory of our people in our society.

Lisa [ 00:13:24 ] Yeah, and that's just such a beautiful example and way to put the sort of role that public diplomacy plays in helping societies, helping us recognize our shared humanity, which is really seems to be the most important thing that we could be doing today and 50 years ago as well. Well, you know, I want to kind of shift a little bit because in this work that you have been doing in the past, you've often been described as a change maker inside maybe one of the more bureaucratic institutions, like the State Department. But what does it mean to push for change in a system like that?

Paul [ 00:14:02 ]Yeah, so two things are definitely true about an institution like State, and I think most other capital-I institutions. The institution as it exists serves someone well, and it is deeply imperfect. And those two things sit in tension, right? We can complain about the bureaucracy, about the stifling things that exist in a place like state, but the things that feel stifling clearly serve someone well. If you can't figure out who it is, you probably have not dug enough, right? So for me, a lot of what being a change maker in State has been, has been looking out and saying what is not serving the end goals that we have well? What is not taking care of people well? What is under delivering? Who is that system currently serving? And how do I help deal with the losses that they will experience? All changes to any institution or to anything entails some form of loss, and a lot of what change is is helping people grapple with the loss and also figure out themselves - what loss can be positive for them? What loss can be compromised with where you find a little to gain a little to lose? To how do you help people grieve along the way? I, you know, I have worked on two major reorganizations at State now. And the first question that I always ask people as we start going into a reorg process is: at moments of change, what are things that you are really excited to let go of?

Lisa [ 00:15:46 ]That's a great question.

Paul [ 00:15:47 ]And I think when we think so much about change as a moment of loss and uncertainty, thinking about how you can take some of the locus of energy back and say, OK, what would I like out of this process of change? What sings a song in my heart? And then, as a leader, try to be good about inventorying those and trying to make them real for as many people as you can.

Lisa [ 00:16:16 ]Can you give an example? I completely get that in theory, right? Like you're trying to balance maybe, in some cases, top-down government priorities with the more human bottom-up engagement piece. Can you share an example of something like that?

Paul [ 00:16:32 ]Yeah, so I'll talk about one that I think about a lot from kind of the early in my career, so mid-2010s at State. Policymakers always really want to connect with young people, right? There is a directive that we will connect with young people, and they generally have things that they wanna talk to young people about I helped write the State Department's Youth Policy in 2011. And you know, young people really don't like being talked to by institutional figures. They wanna have a two-way conversation. Most policymakers don't really wanna do that. Like, they have an idea about what they wanna get out of a dialogue. They have a very clear outcome in mind. And that means that when you're in the middle, like I am, you can do some really interesting things, like say, hey boss, if you want to get to outcome X with the young people, you really have to be able to talk to them about why. I can go out and talk to them. And in that period, a lot of it was about climate, right? And State at that time was not talking a about the climate change. But you ended up in this very interesting place where you can get the policymakers at the highest level to listen if you can help them see that the outcome they want is only possible through engaging with what the grassroots or what the bottom of the system looks like. And that is a repeated theme over my career. Like sometimes to get to where you wanna be with young people around you, you have to be able to talk about climate change. You have to be able to talk about LGBT issues in a coherent way. You have to be willing to grapple with what internet freedom means. And if you don't, you can explain to people at the top of an institution that they are never going to get to the outcome they want. And that's language that they often understand. And like being in the middle like that can be a really powerful place if you can figure out how to channel up, channel down, so that you can get people to compromise somewhere in the middle, which is a lot of what diplomats do, right, is being in the often not having a lot of institutional power but having the power of relationships to figure out how you get people to a place where they can all feel like they're winning a little bit.

Lisa [ 00:19:04 ]Yeah, let me ask let me kind of delve more into that too. You know I know you talk and write about uncertainty and complexity in diplomacy, right? And you're kind of getting into the weeds of that now, right? So how do diplomats like navigate uncertainty? And is there something we all can learn from that as we are also trying to be change makers and in education and do the things that we do?

Paul [ 00:19:30 ]Yeah, so when people think about diplomacy, they mostly think about two things. There's a really great board game called diplomacy that is the worst depiction of actual real-world diplomacy I've ever seen because the entire thing is based on deceit, right? It is a game that is entirely about how you can not reveal information and mislead other people. Where the business that diplomats are in is exactly the opposite, right? Your word is the only thing that is good, and you can never lie if you want people to trust what you say. And all we do is talk. When I talk about lessons from diplomacy, listening and figuring out how to insightful and incisive questions is the core of the work that we do. And listen not just for the words that people are saying, but to the point I just made: to listen for the deeper meaning of what they're trying to express that they may or may not be able to articulate or be able to say out, and then figure out how to process that.

Paul [ 00:20:40 ]No good exchange starts with talking. It has to start with listening and understanding what you don't know. The thing that the game of diplomacy gets right is it's all about incomplete information. And your goal as a diplomat is to get the most complete set of information that you possibly can and talk to a lot of people, right? We talked a lot in kind of the COVID years about how, why do we actually need embassies overseas anymore? If leaders can just get on Zoom and talk to each other directly, why do you need all of these intermediaries? One of the reasons, of course, is time; the other one is a Zoom call loses a lot of the local context. It's not just about what leaders say in a government institution; it's about what the businesses say about what the leaders are saying. It's about how people feel about it. And you don't get a feeling of what life is like in a foreign capital on the streets when a government is taking action until you're there. And it's one of those unique things that I don't think can ever be fully digitized because it isn't a signal in the way that data is a signal. It's about understanding the feelings and the very human interactions that come out of things. Are people afraid of being out on the street? Are they hiding inside? Do they avoid talking to a foreigner in a capital now? Those arent things you are ever going to figure out unless you are on the ground.

Lisa [ 00:22:19 ]Well, you know, speaking of Zoom and digital technologies, I wonder if you could talk a bit about the role of technology, you know, in diplomacy and how is that changing what we do? You gave a great example of how it doesn't, but yeah, I'd like to kind of think more about in today's world with AI and, you know, what does this mean when we talk about technology?

Paul [ 00:22:43 ]Yeah, I mean, I would think about three things, the first of which is technology allows people to sustain relationships, both as diplomats and as public diplomats. It doesn't help you create relationships in quite the same way, but it really does help you sustain them. I have to say we've tried a lot of virtual exchange programs over the years where we start people online. I have not found those to be particularly effective at creating the same deep relationships that people have. However, once you've gotten people together in person, they've had a chance to bond, and then they go apart, Zoom and everything else create these incredible opportunities to stay connected. And I think your experience with OpenBook is one of them, right? Where, through WhatsApp, through all of these other tools, it's much easier than it would have been 20 or 30 years ago to stay in touch and to continue to work together. Second is the ability to actually gather and process data and information. So I talked a lot about the signals that you don't see. But one of the most interesting programs of the State Department in the last 15 years is when we put air quality monitors first on our embassy in Beijing and then on a whole bunch of other embassies around the world. And we started publishing that data; we also started collecting and using it ourselves. Because in a lot of governments, they are not always honest about what the actual air quality is. They manage very carefully the official reporting on air quality. And putting things out there and having the ability to collect and look at data in the allows you to think about stories like how is the climate changing in a really, really different way. And 40 years ago, it was almost impossible to get at the snap of your fingers access to really large and high-quality datasets on some of this stuff. Now you can, you can use that as part of the diplomatic negotiation process, but you can also use it as a way to communicate with people about what matters and just the facts of what's happening around the world.

Paul [ 00:24:58 ]And then there's this final part that is state as a giant bureaucracy. And my best guess is that about 30% of most people's time is spent on work that is pretty low value. I don't think that routing a bunch of leave slips through the system of people that we have to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for their time. I don't want them looking at leave slips; I want them to be able to say yes, you may take leave, and the system to do the rest of it. And I think we're at this really interesting moment with AI and a lot of AI, but also more broadly process and system automation, where we have some really interesting choices to make.

Paul [ 00:25:45 ]We can elect to have robots and computers become the artists for us while we toil away and do the and fill out the leave slips. Or we can choose to have them do the leave slips while we're out meeting with contacts over coffee. Doing the artistic and creative work, doing the strategic work. And that for me is kind of an inflection point, not just for state but for a lot of institutions and for societies: what do we actually want to embrace technology for? And I am really excited to continue to push the idea that we should allow humans to do the most human things, and then use a lot of the technologies we have to allow them to remain there with other things happening in the background. That really excites me.

Lisa [ 00:26:39 ]Right, so public diplomacy there, we're talking about a set of human tools, right? Or I think I've even heard you refer to them as, like, human technology tools. I don't know if that's the right phrase or not, but it's not the digital technology, right? It's the humans.

Paul [ 00:26:54 ]Yeah, so I kind of have two different ideas, right? One is how do we help use technology, digital technology, to allow humans to do the things that only they can do. An AI can't have coffee with someone and have a sensitive conversation, no matter what people are using it for. It's not the same, right? You don't have that same connection that way. So that's part of it. But then I think there's also this really interesting moment in technology right now where we've forgotten about all sorts of non-digital technology.

Paul [ 00:27:30 ]We've gotten so hung up on AI and digital tools, social media, and everything else that we forget that a lot of the most basic things that we have to do every day are also technology, right? Standardized reporting, that is a technology. Having one on one meetings having one-on-one meetings, having coaching, having mentorship. Mentorship is a technology. And I think when you look at large organizations today, a lot of them are missing out on some really powerful human technology that could make them more humane and a lot better. But we don't talk about it in those terms, right? We don't talk about them adopting human technology the same way we do digital ones. And consequently, people kind of shove it to the side. And I am not at all surprised when I look at the Gallup reporting that a lot of employees are less engaged. A lot of organizations are less healthy today than they were a decade ago. And I think it's largely because we've neglected some of that human technological side while we've been chasing kind of the digital side of it as well.

Lisa [ 00:28:44 ]You know, I want to think a bit about, you're talking about today and what we're neglecting in this way. It also feels like we may be in a situation where we're neglecting some of the importance around public diplomacy. And you know, I want to think a little bit with you about what's at risk for governments, for societies, for the people that you're talking about, you know, sitting in the cafe for future generations. So, you know, if we neglect this public diplomacy, what's at risk?

Paul [ 00:29:16 ]Yeah, I think the greatest risk is of isolation and loneliness. And I don't just mean that on an individual level, but on a social, on a community level too, right? Public diplomacy is about how you get communities across borders, across cultures, across contexts, connected together. I think a lot of the events of today are pulling people apart. I think social media is, in fact, quite antisocial in a lot of significant ways. And it's pushing ourselves, you know, particularly as we retreat from a lot of the kind of more open public forums. We often retreat into ourselves, and that can be deeply isolating and lonely, particularly when people are really deliberately trying to other people right now.

Paul [ 00:30:09 ]What I worry about at a moment in time where we see a direction towards less global trade, less economic ties, is we start to lose some of those cultural and social ties too, that are really foundational to keeping a sustained peaceful relationship between the United States and other countries, and between other countries themselves too. I think we all have to own the fact that loneliness is a shared problem. It is experienced individually, but it is a collective problem. And the more that we can do to connect with each other, not only the mentally healthier are we going to be, but I think the socially healthier as well.

Lisa [ 00:30:56 ]Yeah, so when I think about the future of public diplomacy and in our role in it, right, particularly in this era of AI and disinformation, what do we need to do? What could we be doing now to make sure it remains human at its core?

Paul [ 00:31:12 ]I think one of the greatest things that people can do is actually go out and participate in it. Public diplomacy is not just an act that governments do it's an act that people do. And there is a wonderful network of institutions across the United States who are really deeply committed to this. The Global Ties Network that runs a lot of the local International Visitor Leadership Program chapters, the World Affairs Councils, the Sister Cities Network. These are all public diplomacy tools that are intended to be participatory. There are several here in my hometown of Albuquerque and in Santa Fe there's a thriving community, a lot of which is just sustained by people who really care about that work and about the ties that they have around the world.

Paul [ 00:32:06 ]So I think we can participate in the political process of it, but there's really also nothing like going out and doing and helping particularly young people go out and do too. I think everyone you talk to who gets the spark, they catch the bug for international travel, for international curiosity, can tell you a story about that first moment that made them curious. It's often an interaction, right? Right, right. It's an encounter that they have with someone who is fundamentally different, who makes them curious. We all have ways to help orchestrate those. So we should.

Lisa [ 00:32:48 ]You know, as we talk about public diplomacy on the human level, on the institution. level I think sometimes we can get discouraged by what we build. I mean we build these beautiful structures and things emerge, and lives are changed. And then, you know, something comes crashing down on it and we think, oh, all that was for nothing. You know, how do you address, how have you addressed that? Or what do you think the model is for seeing that differently?

Paul [ 00:33:18 ]Yeah, so one of my favorite metaphors that you're doing a beautiful job at teeing me up for, one of my favorite metaphors is the idea of building sandcastles on the beach, right? Which is when we're doing a lot of work in government, in community-building, we're sitting there on a beach, we can see the ocean out there. We're building this beautiful structure. We're really happy; it's gorgeous. And then the water just comes up a little too high, maybe because we didn't look too carefully at the tide calendar, or, you know, maybe there's a boat offshore that pushes the waves a little bit higher, and it just completely sweeps it.

Paul [ 00:33:59 ]And I think we make a mistake by focusing on the sandcastle rather than the building of sandcastles. As soon as you build a sandcastle and someone sees it, they're impacted by the beauty, by the experience that they have. And the sandcastle is washed away, and it's gone, and it's returned to the flat sand. You can build another sandcastle, but the experience of having encountered that is gonna stick with people. And I think back to the question just before, right? Or talking about the OpenBook project. Every single program that I have, almost every single program I have worked on had a lifecycle where it lived and then it ended. OpenBook, we are not still running exchange programs on that. I did some incredible work on education technology programming earlier in my career too. We don't do that anymore.

Paul [ 00:34:57 ]However, I still hear from people in the diplomatic core and overseas whose lives were changed by that? The sandcastle doesn't still have to be there to have impacted people in a beautiful way. And I think for a lot of us, every time the sandcastle is knocked down is a chance for reinvention and for redesigning it in new ways. Maybe you didn't like something you did; maybe you saw something that someone else did that was really cool. Take a moment to mourn the loss, and then figure out on what you're going to build next that's beautiful, and just keep doing it over and over again, faster and faster, again, because you're going to end up doing incredible things that continue to have really good impact for people.

Lisa I love that. Thank you. And what a perfect ending. And of I was just reminded, as you're talking there, I'm hearing Jimi Hendrix and then also Tuck and Patty did a beautiful version of the song, you know, sandcastles eventually fall into the sea or they fall into the sea eventually. You know that song, right? Yeah, of course. Castles made of sand.

Lisa [ 00:36:14 ]Before we finish, I always like to leave space for one final question, something I ask all my guests. Can you make up the title of the book that you wish more people would read?

Paul [ 00:36:32 ]This is going to be a little bit cliche but, particularly at this moment in I think we need a book that is government by the people and for the people. I think people so often today forget that government is not just for them. Institutions are not just for them. It is made up of them too. It is built by them. And even at moments where it feels very distant, you have ways to contribute, to influence, to create change, to make it work better for you, and to make it work better for the world that you want to have in it. And I don't want people to lose sight of the agency that they have in making the world a better place for themselves, for the children, and for the people that they love.

Lisa [ 00:37:21 ]Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. I've really appreciated the way you've helped us see public diplomacy not just as a government-to-government work that often feels out of reach for most people. but as something deeply human about connecting across boundaries. It's been such a thoughtful reminder of how education and relationships really sit at the heart of. Thank you, everybody, for listening to the show this week. This has been Lisa Petrides with Educating to be Human. If you enjoy our show, please rate and review us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can access our show notes for links and information on our guests. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram, Blue Sky, at edutobehuman. That is E D U to be human. This podcast was created by Lisa Petrides and produced by Helene Theros. Educating to be Human is recorded by Nathan Sherman and edited by Ty Mayer, with music by Orestes Koletsos.

We're bringing back the show that started it all - Monsters! In this rerun of our premiere episode of Educating to be Human, Lisa Petrides speaks with Erin O'Connell, a university classics professor, who has used her expertise over the years as a teacher of Ancient Greek and Ancient Greek culture to delve into the world of Monsters, how we define them, where we can find them, not just under our beds, and the perspective they bring us in thinking about being human in today's world. Erin O'Connell's academic background is in Classics and Comparative Literature, teaching Greek and Latin languages and literature as well as a broad range of Humanities courses to all ages.

Erin earned a PhD at UC-Santa Cruz, taught at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City for 20 years where she was a tenured professor, and has come full circle by returning to California to teach at UC-Santa Cruz and Cabrillo Community College. As a scholar and teacher Erin is keen on integrating her scholarly expertise with the interests and needs of all learners in the contemporary educational and cultural context.

Educating to be Human is hosted by Lisa Petrides, produced by Helene Theros, recorded by Nathan Sherman, edited by Ty Mayer, with music by Orestes Koletsos.

Please subscribe and listen to Educating to Be Human on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, leave a review, tell your friends and share our episodes on social media. And don't forget to follow @edutobehuman on Instagram and on X/Twitter @edutobehuman

educatingtobehuman.org

In this episode of Educating to Be Human, Lisa Petrides is joined by Maha Bali, a leading voice in digital pedagogy and open education. Maha invites us to see digital literacy not just as learning how to use tools, but as something deeply tied to identity, power, and relationships. As AI increasingly becomes part of the fabric of our daily lives, Maha challenges us to ask: what values are built into the tools we use, and how do they shape the way we connect with one another?

Maha Bali is a professor of practice at the Centre for Teaching and Learning at the American University in Cairo and co-founder of Equity Unbound, an equity-focused, open, connected intercultural learning curriculum, which has also branched into academic community activities – Continuity with Care, Socially Just Academia, and MYFest, an innovative 3-month professional learning journey. In 2023, Maha was named among 30 higher education IT influencers by EdTech Magazine. She writes and speaks frequently about social justice, critical pedagogy, and open and online education. She blogs regularly at https://blog.mahabali.me and tweets @bali_maha.

Resources:

Equity Unbound - https://equityunbound.org/

MyFest - https://myfest.equityunbound.org/

Socially Just Academia - https://equityunbound.org/category/imaginingasociallyjustacademia/

Mays Imad - Trauma Informed Pedagogy - https://tll.mit.edu/trauma-informed-teaching/

Chris Gilliard - https://just-tech.ssrc.org/our-network/chris-gilliard/

Adrienne Maree Brown - https://www.akpress.org/emergentstrategy.html

Audry Waters blog - https://2ndbreakfast.audreywatters.com/

Asao Inoue - Labor-based grading - https://wac.colostate.edu/books/perspectives/labor/

In this episode of Educating to Be Human, Lisa dives into education that is truly rooted in the community, with Dr. Keith Curry, President of Compton College. His efforts to address the real-life challenges that students face at community college are remarkable: meeting basic needs (such as food, housing, textbooks), achieving academic success, and finding job opportunities after completion of certificates and degrees. Lisa and Keith also talk about leadership in times of uncertainty—how to lead in an environment of fluctuating budgets, and federal and state policy shifts, and in a terrain that is shifting before our eyes. For Dr. Curry, equity isn't a slogan. It's about institutionalizing support systems, embedding change, and ensuring that student success isn't left to chance.

Dr. Keith Curry is the President of Compton College and CEO of the Compton Community College District. Dr. Curry is responsible for overseeing all departments and functions of Compton College and the District and serves as secretary for the CCCD Board of Trustees. He brings an abundance of energy and innovative ideas to Compton College, along with a wealth of experience as a postsecondary education administrator.

Dr. Curry co-founded and chairs Black Student Success Week. He currently serves as chair of both the National Panel on Black Student Enrollment and the Black Student Enrollment Expert Advisory Committee. He was a member of the California Alliance for Open Education Steering Committee and the University of Southern California Racial Equity in Guided Pathways Commission Task Force. His recent honors include the 2025 California Legislative Black Caucus Unsung

Hero Recognition from the 65th California Assembly District, the 2024 Diverse Issues in Higher Education Diverse, the 2024 African American California Community College Trustee and Administrators Caucus Chief Executive Officer of the Year Award, and the 2024 University of California, Santa Cruz - Alumni Awards.

Dr. Curry earned his doctorate in educational leadership from the University of California, Irvine, and a bachelor's degree in American studies from the University of California, Santa Cruz

https://iamkeithcurry.org/

https://www.compton.edu/

In this episode of Educating to be Human, Lisa speaks with Chris Freeland, Director of Library Services at the Internet Archive, about the evolving role of libraries in society and their critical function in preserving equitable access to knowledge and serving as a memory institution. They explore the challenges libraries face today—from book bans and cyber threats to restrictive digital licensing—and how these issues affect our collective memory, democracy, and ability to learn.

Chris shares how the Internet Archive has been protecting public access to digital content, government data, and cultural heritage, especially in a time when traditional libraries are under mounting pressure. Together, they examine how protecting libraries is one of the most pressing issues of our time.

Chris Freeland is the Director of Library Services at the Internet Archive, advancing the organization's mission of "Universal access to all knowledge." A librarian and biologist by training, Chris has led major digital initiatives across libraries, museums, and research institutions. He holds advanced degrees in biological sciences and library science, and has published widely on the use of emerging technologies in cultural heritage. He is also the co-host of Future Knowledge, a podcast exploring the future of libraries, access, and preservation: https://futureknowledge.transistor.fm/

Resources:

Internet Archive: https://archive.org/

Democracy's Library: https://blog.archive.org/2022/10/19/announcing-democracys-library/

In this episode of Educating to be Human, Lisa speaks with Joanna Strober, seasoned entrepreneur and founder of MidiHealth—a virtual clinic providing personalized care for women navigating midlife changes like perimenopause and menopause. Together, Lisa and Joanna discuss why this stage of life remains one of the most under-researched, underfunded, and underserved areas in medicine, and what can and is being done about it. Digging into the success of MidiHealth, this conversation is a powerful reminder that we need new models of healthcare—ones that not only provide care but also empower women with the knowledge they need to understand and thrive in their changing bodies.

Joanna is the founder of Midi Health, a virtual care platform for women in perimenopause and menopause. The company brings expert care, covered by insurance, to women nationwide. Before Midi, Joanna founded Kurbo, the first digital therapeutic for childhood obesity, which she successfully sold to Weight Watchers. Before diving into digital health, Joanna spent more than 20 years in direct private equity and venture capital investing in health and consumer companies, including several notable consumer internet companies, such as Blue Nile, eToys, BabyCenter, HotJobs, and Flycast.

Resources:

Midi Health's website: https://www.joinmidi.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joinmidi

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/midihealth/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/midi-health/mycompany/

In this episode of Educating to Be Human, Lisa speaks with Stephen Ritz, founder of the Green Bronx Machine, about how we can transform education by returning to the most essential teacher of all: food.

What if learning began not with a textbook, but with a seed? Stephen's journey - from a South Bronx classroom to a global network of edible education- reveals how growing food in schools can ignite curiosity, connect students to nature, and make learning deeply tangible. His work in communities facing food deserts underscores the urgency of teaching nutrition, science, and wellness through hands-on experience - especially for students in underserved areas.

This episode digs into the connection between food and learning, showing how the act of growing kale, tomatoes, or basil in a classroom can cultivate more than crops—it can grow confidence, purpose, and joy. For Stephen, learning shouldn't happen only from the neck up. It should be embodied, sensory, and rooted in community.

Tune in to hear how gardens are reshaping education from the ground up.

Stephen Ritz is an internationally acclaimed, award-winning educator, author of best-selling book, The Power Of A Plant and Founder of Green Bronx Machine. Known as America's favorite teacher and 2015 Top Ten Finalist for the Global Teacher Prize, Stephen is responsible for creating the first edible classroom in the world. He and his students have grown more than 165,000 pounds of vegetables in the South Bronx and are the subject of a new, full-feature documentary, Generation Growth. A replica of his classroom was installed in the US Botanic Gardens in Washington, DC and his curriculum is being used in hundreds of schools across the United States, and internationally from Colombia to Dubai, from Canada to Cairo, Doha, and beyond.

Resources:

https://greenbronxmachine.org/generation-growth/

https://greenbronxmachine.org/

https://greenbronxmachine.org/product/autographed-copy-of-the-power-of-a-plant-book/