Effortless Swimming

As we end a wonderful year, here’s a collection of the best podcast snippets for 2019. Enjoy!

00:19 Do Not Overthink
02:04 Flexibility
05:02 Stroke Changes In Open Water
08:12 “I Can’t Do That, I Am Spontaneous”
12:26 Breathing Exercises During Downtime
15:17 Locking Changes as a Habit
18:19 Serape Effect on Freestyle
20:43 Don’t Get Too Caught Up with Data
23:01 “I’d Rather And Potentially Fail At Something That I Really Care About, Rather Than Never Try At All”
24:57 Putting Fundamentals In Place First
26:33 One Of The Most Powerful Thing You Can Do To Your Body
28:08 Pain Is Inevitable, Suffering Is Optional
35:12 Breaking Things Down To A Simplistic Level

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Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford.

I like seeing what guys at the very top end like yourself are doing because it kind of makes you think, oh, there’s more that I can, there’s more that I can do here. And I don’t know if you’ve heard of a guy, Dave Goggins, he’s, he’s written this book recently and he used to be an ex-navy seal and now he’s a, does a lot of ultra marathon running, but he’s just really hard guy. And he talks about like he did this 100k race and it was the first one that he did. He hadn’t trained for it really at all. And he ended up just completely ruining himself and he was throwing up blood and everything and just there’s sort of no filter with the pain. He just go through it and he just wouldn’t think twice about it. And it’s kind of after hearing stuff like that, it’s a, it’s good motivation to, you know, you can do it. It’s just, it’s really, it’s so mental compared to physical. Obviously, the physical is important, but a lot of it is upstairs. You know,

what’s happening? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, is it, I mean, did you, do you ever find that when you’re training that it’s, it’s just a matter of just getting to the pool and getting it done and not overthinking? Yeah, if you’re feeling tired and you’re Yeah, absolutely. Well, sometimes it’s just easy. It’s good to go to training and to be told sometimes that’s all you can do. And that’s that’s a achievement, you know, getting up at quarter to five or four or whenever you’re getting out and then just going and doing what you’re told and getting through the set. Sometimes that’s it. And sometimes you can really push it feeling great. And, you know, you’ve had a double shot coffee or whatever before training and you’re really ready to go. So you push it extra hard and you get fitter and stuff. But sometimes just turning up is better than not turning up at all.

Well, one of the things, well, I noticed from your video by, by Fatal, you know, he would, you know, he’d lay on his stomach and he’d put his arms up and he’d show like what angle he could get his arms up. And so where I noticed it is on the front top of my shoulders on each one, that’s that’s my tight spot. And so one of the things I’ll do is like I’ll lay on a roller, a tube, I’ll lay on at my spine and I’ll lay my back. And then I kind of put my arms out to the side and put them up over my head and kind of rotate them and try to hit that position. And I’ll even have my daughter hold my arms a little bit. And I don’t do it every day, but maybe like, you know, two or three times a week for about 10 minutes just to especially after a hard swim that day, or the night before. And that really helps. That helps loosen me up and it helps when I get into to water quite a bit. So now I can work on my pole. Yeah, that’s that’s excellent. It makes such a difference even, as

you said, three times a week of 10 minutes. Same thing with strength training like I’ve been taking these these younger kids sort of twice a week here just locally. And I’ve been doing a little bit of strength work with them about it’s only about a 25 30 minute workout, but it just gives them this this base level of strength. And it’s the same thing with with flexibility is you just want this sort of base level that makes a huge difference if you’re not doing any at the moment. So you don’t need to do three times an hour a week. It’s just that little bit can really change things, especially if you’re on the bike, you’re in TT position, even running, the shoulders get so tight. And I experienced that when I was doing triathlon a couple of years ago that it just really changes the way that you feel. So you just want to make sure that you’re keeping on top of that mobility, which yeah, which is makes a big, big difference. And, you know,

sometimes when I’m running clinics will do like one of the first drills we do is just this really simple front kick drill with the arms out in front. And one of the first things we work on is that train tracks position with the hands directly in line with the shoulders. And with about, you know, sort of one in 10, two out of 10 people, they can’t actually get their arms straight because they’re so tight through their, through their upper traps and so tight through the shoulders. And that’s really limiting from a drag perspective, but it’s also going to be limiting from a catch and pull perspective. So I’d be curious as to is to see what how much of an impact that actually has. And I mean, I’ve seen it have a big, big impact with a lot of swimmers. But yeah, it’d be interesting to see what what percentage of improvement comes from just the mobility alone. And then the technical side of things too. So that’s, yeah, that’s

really good to good to hear. I remember some of the parents talking about drafting and it took me three years to actually understand what that was. And it’s just it’s just completely different. So I think one of the things that helps with that is just getting the experience in the open water, you just can’t you can’t beat the experience in in training and and racing open water. But then there are certainly those those stroke changes and what sort of changes have you made in your stroke to to go open water? Have you changed? Have you been able to to change that in the last couple of years as you’ve gotten more and more experience in racing? Yeah, one of the things that I battle over the last about 18 months or so is I ended up developing a really, really long, slow kind of catch up style stroke. And I did this because one of the first big swim projects that I did, I want to say it was 2013 or 14. Basically when I became

like a proficient swimmer, I wanted to set a bit of a mark in my life that that marked a turning point in my life where growing up I was always quite afraid of the water. I overcame that as I got into triathlon and I wanted to have that that stamp of approval that said I’m not afraid of the water anymore. I’ve changed my life. I decided to do a 27 kilometer open water swim. And I did that. And a few years later, we, a couple friends and I, we did another open water swim. This one was 37 kilometers. And in training for that, I trained myself just to go long and slow and be as loose and relaxed as possible. And what I developed was this long catch upy glidy, pausing, like kind of a pretty pool stroke, but really wasn’t very good for anything besides going long and slow. And over the last 18 months or so, I’ve tried to make that a lot scrappier, a lot quicker with the turnover, try to get that into the 70s and 80s, and

sometimes even set the tempo trainer up to 100 and see if I can hold that for five or six strokes. And also, in addition to just getting rid of that pause at the front of the stroke, having like firmer arms, I don’t really know a good swim term to describe it, but like, just being more forceful with the water, instead of letting the water kind of turn me into a noodle and just going with it to conserve energy for those nine hour swims, being more forceful and punchy, which you commented on, I still have a long way to go. But if you had seen me two years ago, I looked like a 80 year old guy in the park in the pool. That was just like, just out for like, oh, I’m out for a little, little morning swim. And I’m trying to get away from that.

What would you say to someone who has who would look at your calendar, and they’ll see it on the website, and they go like, I can’t say I can’t structure my every single single minute there because you know, I’m more spontaneous. I want to be able to do things on the fly. Can they structure in free time? Or can they structure in going to the movies or time where they’re not actually where there’s nothing set? What’s what’s your recommendation for people who feel like they want a bit of spontaneity in their week? Well, I do that. Don’t take it that I, by saying I structure everything in my day doesn’t mean I have times where I don’t have anything in there. So as an example, I had an hour today in the calendar free before you and me speaking, and I went and sat down by the fire and had to think about what we were going to do. That wasn’t in the calendar. It was just an hour block that was free. So that’s the first point. The second

point is I try and have nothing in the calendar on the weekend apart from sometimes I’ll do maybe one client meeting for someone who can’t meet during the week or and then I train on a Sunday. So that is in the calendar. But apart from that, I don’t put anything in an electronic calendar for the weekend. I use a totally different system. So I’m not feeling like I’m at work on the weekend. So I use an old fashioned bit of paper. And on Friday night, what I do is I sit down with my wife and I say, OK, these are the things and I just sort of rule it into Friday and Saturday old fashioned notepad and I just say, OK, I got three hours of training on Sunday. I’ve got a teacher class on Saturday morning. Other than that, my time’s ours. What do you want to do? What do I need to do for you? What do I need to get done at the house? If we had kids, I’d be like who’s taking the kids to football. And then she’ll say, well, I’ve got stuff I need to do on Sunday morning. So

can you train Sunday morning and then we have the afternoon together? And on the sheet of paper, I just draw that up and I’ll leave it on the kitchen bench. So that is about as spontaneous as I get. But back to your sort of question about what other people can do is I would say when you’re planning in your calendar, one thing you could do is color code things. So that’s what I use Google is very good for that as well is just right clicking and color coding what I would call really important activities and things that are not a high priority. And if you need to shift things, the things that you need to shift or make room for other things are those ones that aren’t a high priority. And it’s similar. It’s a similar concept to key sessions, routine sessions or optional sessions with your training. So if if your listeners, you know, think that every session is a critical or a key session in their training, if they’re a

triathlete, well, that’s probably the wrong approach. So even though I am generally 100% compliant, if I feel like my week is chalking up and I need to drop a session, I have sessions in my plan that are critical key sessions that I must do. And then I have sessions that I can drop out and you can take the same approach with things in your life as well. But I would always advocate having spare time in the calendar. And it’s actually blocked as free time. So you, you know, if you’re getting a bit stressed or a bit anxious about getting shit done, you actually allocate maybe towards the back end of the week. And this is what I do on a Thursday and Friday, I allocate time that’s just like blocked. Where clients can’t book me. And it’s just a gap in the calendar that if I need to catch up on things, or if I want to go for a walk, or do something spontaneous, even though it’s sort of maybe not spontaneous, because you’ve already got the

time blocked, it’s more like, here’s some downtime where I can do other things that aren’t necessarily in my calendar that have come up during the week.

One thing that I’ve found to be quite useful to without any devices is, so I was, I was driving for 19 hours, this was about four weeks ago, I was going on family holidays, I had a lot of time to kill in the car. And so I was, I was just doing some different breathing exercises. And one of them was, I was trying to see how long I could do the inhale for. So just like a very long inhale. And I got it up to, I got up to 90 seconds. So it’s just 90 seconds of an inhale. It took me a while to get there. But I sort of started out at about 45 seconds and then progressively get to to a minute and then a minute 15 and eventually got to about a minute 30 on the last one. And so I found doing that with this slow inhale and then I make sure that my I’m starting from down low. So using the diaphragm, filling in, like in through the belly, and then it sort of expands up to the lungs. And by the end of it, after 90 seconds, my my chest is out

my stomach’s out, it’s sort of as big as I can get. And I find that that expansion of the chest and the stomach to, for whatever reason, when I was training for the next four weeks, after doing these exercises quite a bit over the course of a few days, I just found that my, my output could be a lot I could sustain a much higher output without feeling like I was getting tight. So I was just a lot more in control of my breathing. So I found that that that exercise alone was was hugely beneficial. So it’s got it’s something I’m going to keep doing more when I’m in the car, because it’s you can’t really do it day to day or in the workplace. It’s a bit weird. But yeah, just focusing on your breathing is is a huge one that I think is often not not considered too too much, especially compared to your typical weight training or whatever it might be. Because it’s, you know, it’s the thing that we all just do subconsciously, but we never really stop and think about our

breathing and control it. And I think this respiratory muscle training and even just intentional breathing and long inhales, long exhales, I find that stuff can be very, very useful.

You’re absolutely right. And that’s really impressive 90 seconds. And before we move on, you bring up a great point in that we do have downtime. Hopefully we’re alone because you’re right, you can’t take the power breathe that work or, you know, on transit. But when we do have downtime, or you can’t work out on a particular day for whatever reason, you can use these exercise modalities to compensate for the missed workout, you could do breath training, and you can do occlusion or blood flow restriction training. And you get at least some training effect on those when we have downtime when we’re commuting.

And what did you do to to lock in those changes as habit and change that that muscle memory? Because it’s easy to, you know, change something once. But then it’s very easy to fall back into into old habits. So how did you make those changes?

Yeah, so from since the camp, you know, almost every single session that I’ve done by my open water, I’ll get in and do 500 meters of drills. So, you know, the five drills that I took away from it, I’ll do 50 meter drill, then just swim back with the fins on with the snorkel on and focus on my stroke. And I think, and then going forward, and through my sets that I do in training with the kick, no, sorry, with the poor boy and with the hand paddles, I’ll do all of those with a snorkel. So I can really focus on my stroke. I don’t have to worry about the breathing side of things. And I think for me, I’ve found really focusing on that stroke with the setup of the drills at the start to just for me being able to remember the points that I have to focus on, then going through the session, focusing on, you know, the high elbow and the catch in the hand entry and not putting on the brakes. And, you know, two, three

times a week doing those drills has really helped me to actually implement it in a race situation. And how did you feel in the the first couple of weeks? Was it was it one of those changes that made you feel better straight away? Or did it feel a bit unusual and and worse? What, how was it for you?

I think, yeah, my my speed didn’t change initially. A few bits and pieces, some of them felt good, some of them felt bad, and still even now, you know, I try to focus on lengthening out and you know, the head position that we talk about when you’re at the clinic. And I still forget about that because it wasn’t one of my main points that I had to think of. But I was swimming along and it’ll just come into my head. And I’ll make that change. And, you know, even still, it feels weird to do a few of these things. But it is starting to come or become more second nature, which is really good. And then, you know, obviously, since then, been watching videos and trying to implement a bit of the Serafe one you’re talking about with Josh and,

you know, again, I forget about that. I don’t know the drills associated with that. But I kind of, by watching the video, I kind of understand the dynamics of it and what it should feel like and what it should look like. So, you know, I’ll think about that halfway through a length and I’ll try to add that in as well. And you can certainly feel the difference. But for me, I think going forward, something like that there’s really going to help take it to the next level as well.

Yeah, it can take a little while to develop that, especially if they haven’t currently got that in their stroke, that coordination, it’s going to be pretty awkward for two or three weeks at least. And but they’ll probably find over the course of a couple of weeks, they start to get it more and more. And they’d notice when they, they get it, they feel like, all right, man, that was that was good. I could feel that sort of flow coming into the stroke. And what I find with the with freestyle that that can help with people to kind of progression in a way that they can can go through is so first of all, you want to make sure that you’re reaching out enough, you’re rotating your your torso and your hips correctly. So for generally, it’s going to be about 4045 degrees through your shoulders, rotation side to side. And the hips will be about sort of 3035 roughly that’s a bit less than the shoulders. Now, if they’re in that position, then then they’ve got a good

chance of having that Serapa effect come into play. But what can help them in freestyle is to really make use of it, you want to get your catch. So the sort of downwards tipping of their hand or the fingertips, get that to sink up with the downwards kick of your leg on the same side. And that’s going to help initiate that rotation to the to the other side. So if you can get the correct rotation, you can get the catch and the downwards kick to sink up, then then you it’s going to make everything a whole lot easier. So I find there sort of two, two things that you need to have in place to get the effect of it. Otherwise, you’re kind of it’s going to be hard to do. Yeah, no. And I think, like you said, if you if you try and sometimes teaching it like step by step can be can be confusing, because we tend to think a lot of people so over analytical that they sort of their mind gets stuck on, you know, if you tell someone to throw the ball, and then you

say, well, before you throw gently rotate your hips to 30 degrees, now rotate it’s like, you know, if you just say, just throw the ball, and they go, okay, you want me to do this? And they go, yes, then they get the movement. So I mean, that’s where you’re coaching. You can see, you know, straight away, like this is actually confusing the person. It’s funny, because it’s such a natural movement. It’s just that we’ve been so programmed by the fitness industry to isolate movements. And I think we’ve got that’s what we’re trying to get back to functionality again.

Yeah. And I think from a lifestyle lifestyle perspective, you looks like you’re living a pretty good lifestyle with a lot of travel involved. Obviously surfing a lot in some very nice locations and and not really broken down in the sense of just the ongoing training where your body just really you want that recovery, you want that sleep. So how have you sort of have you found that over the last couple of years and compared to maybe some of the other athletes that you’ve you’ve seen, like, what’s the difference between you and maybe someone who’s doing 10, 10 sessions a week, but they might be doing 60 70 days a week. Yeah, no, it’s I mean, there’s a lot of things different. I feel I feel very blessed that I one, I can afford to travel. This is really the first year where I’ve been able to do as much travel as I have. It’s been incredible. I mean, I’ve already logged, I think, almost a little over 20,000 miles

this year, just flying back and forth racing the champion series and pro series and aeronostrum and set of Koli. And then, you know, I, I think one thing that really sets me what makes it different for me is a frame of mind. I think mentally, I know, like, I, well, I personally love it. Like I want I love to travel. I love racing. I love being abroad. As much as I do miss the surf, like our surf reports the last couple of weeks have been amazing. And I have, but it’s one of the things that gives me life. And so I’m excited when I get to go and travel to wherever it may be. And I think a lot of athletes, at least a lot of swimmers I know, aren’t really that eager to travel all the time. You know, it’s I think there’s this. It’s just kind of a something that’s been kind of conditioned into the athletes is that we just we train for a long period of time. We get we stay at home and enjoy our time. And I do I enjoy being

home. But you know, there’s there’s a certain kind of like okay, you have to enjoy it in order for it to work out. And I think I’ve been successful with it up to now, because I’ve enjoyed it so much.

I was just talking to to Wayne Goldsmith and he’s kind of almost a consultant to a lot of different sports on how to keep kids in sport. And we’re just talking about the with younger kids that there’s a big focus on just getting them to do the laps and like, and he he he he reckons swimming is is the is the least can be the least fun sport for kids because if they can have two hours in the pool, and it might just be grinding it out day after day, it’s early mornings, don’t really get to chat with your friends when you’re doing it. So compare that to say soccer, for example, where even if you are training three hours a day, you still get to chat with your friends and it’s a team sport. So what can you do? What can coaches do to keep kids in sport? And it doesn’t matter if a kid’s got this awesome aerobic base from 12 to 16 years of age, and he’s got this great Bo2 max, if you’re sitting at home at 17 playing fortnight, because the only kid you can’t, you

know, the only person you can’t get to get to do anything is the person who’s quit the sport. So what can you do to keep it fun? And I think even from a adult sort of, they typically do the things they want to be doing. So it’s a bit of a different story. But if you’re not, if you’re not having fun and you’re not enjoying yourself, then you’ve lost already. So you do those things that you enjoy and and don’t get too caught up in in things if it gives you, if it makes you anxious, if it causes you to stress over over these little things, just, you know, you’ve only got the one life. So you want to live it, you want to enjoy it. And I think, you know, that’s that’s why I think it’s important not to get to use the data, but don’t get too caught up in it and having someone like, so yeah, you will look that to. So this is this is what I want you to do. Now go out, go out and do it, try and hit this heart rate. But you know, leave leave

the rest to to you leave the stress to to you or looking deeply into it. There’s no reason why where you’re at today has to be where you’re going to be for the next five, 10, 20 years. Oh, it’s exactly right. And even even these that I find it quite funny, like, especially my grandparents always, oh, but what about your law degree? I want to put you and I said, like my nan, I said, sort of something like Nan, like my law degree is not going anywhere. And I’d rather I’d rather try and potentially fail as something that I really care about, rather than never try it all and just go into something that I don’t not want to do, but am not as interested about. And like, I just I took a chance. And that’s the thing. Laws are pretty good backup to have. Marketing is a pretty good, you know, I’m pretty sure that should all this fail as I’m constantly worried that it will, I’ll have I’ll have things to back myself up with. And I think

the coaching thing is really, really interesting too, because I think when I started, you’re right, I was like, I have no right to be telling people what to do. Like I, I barely know myself a lot of the time. And I think for myself, I was very, I was very quick to put this label. I coach beginner athletes. Oh, don’t I’m not a real coach. I just I just worry about people who are trying to lose weight. Like that’s that I’m just I’m just helping them. And it wasn’t until I started to have athletes go better and better. And I think I had a guy coached last year and he went four hours 20 on daybuilder 70.3. And I’m not I’m not claiming responsibility for that. He’s an incredible, Luke is an incredible athlete. But it made me go, this isn’t a beginner athlete. Like that’s pretty that’s pretty impressive for a first and I’ve coached him for nearly two years. Yeah, we just there is just so much information we can get from

athletes and all of that. We also use like kind of 2D 2D motion capture where we actually calibrate to certain space and can actually give you an indication as to, you know, kick frequencies, kick amplitude and underwater kicks, different metrics and stroke to and we could look at all of that in massive depth. But in the end of the day, it’s how you interpret that information is key. And I find a really happy space with dealing with information and sharing the information that I feel is going to make the most impact to athlete and coach. And that’s probably the space I kind of like dealing in. And ultimately, through my years working with swimming, it’s always comes down to fundamentals. What are they fundamentally doing correctly? And that needs to be in place first. And I mean, obviously the audience from your view, I think, you know, it’s quite easy to kind of get caught up in what everyone else is doing. And the guy in the lane next

to you might be doing something which you think might better suit you or it just looks great because his swimming five minutes quicker over his, you know, his initial swim in a triathlon that you must be doing what he’s doing. But ultimately, we just need to go back to consider what we’re doing well first, what got us there in the first place. And then ensure that we have all those fundamentals in place that we can build off of those to obviously get better or more out of what we’re trying to do in the end of the day. This actual technique when people get involved in it is definitely I liken it to those catcher brushes when you’ve got some oil on your driveway, and you go out there and you get one of those high pressure water turbo things. And when you turn it on, the water pressure coming out of that thing is immense. And when you blast the concrete, you know, you get off years of dirt off that thing. So this angie

breath is really in my mind a bit like taking to your body with one of those catcher brushes. And I’ve talked about it on a physical level so far. But really, the main approach here is on a mental level of what we’re doing is actually sort of helping our body block and a clear out certain blockages in the brain. And like you said, you know, like people do approach these a lot of these techniques of when things get a little bit tough, like the idea is, oh, look, I better, I give up, better back off here. And I suppose that’s where some of the ice immersion work comes in after this sort of work or in addition to this work, where some of the the Wim Hof technique where people have actually then, you know, keep going with this energy breath and then they move to dunking themselves in the ice. And then if you’ve ever heard your brain tell you to get out, you will definitely hear it then. All our automatic subliminal programs that are in our brain

that tell us all sorts of stuff, you know, on a small subtle level for the swimmers, it might be the bit, you know, all the can’t do is, you know, like I can’t, I can’t do that time or I can’t stay in the pool for long enough or I can’t execute that stroke pattern. All of those things are really automatic programs that are embedded in our brain. And some of those programs actually help us live. I mean, we probably experienced the sort of times where sometimes we’ve been driving home and, you know, we’re busy thinking about something. And then so we realized, oh, wow, turning in the driveway, you know, we’ve actually managed to get home with very little conscious thought of what we’re doing. And what that actually is all those incredible automatic processes that are in our body that can run our live and run run for us a program like getting home, making a coffee or doing something in our work life that we can do pretty easily. But on the

flip side, like we can have a whole heap of automatic programs in our brain that actually read detrimental to how we perform. And you might sort of have an old coach or an or an old sort of, you know, other person you’ve coached again, trained against that has mentioned a few really sort of important comments that probably didn’t stick with you that well and maybe left a little bit of a negative effect in your brain that you now unconsciously believe is true. And exercise, so breathing exercise like this part of what it’s trying to do is to uproot some of those laid down programs. And like you said, when you’re in the breathing method, what’s happening is it’s changing a little bit of body chemistry that’s altering some of your brain processes, assessing and it’s allowing some of the sort of locked in emotions that we hold against ourselves to be released out of the system. So commonly during this energy breath, if we sustain

it for long enough, you know, we can actually get to a point where we can feel our body releasing some of these emotions. And sometimes, like you said, it is absolutely laughter. And I’ve been in one class myself where, you know, one girl started laughing, and then another girl started laughing, then I’m laughing and the whole 12 of us are in absolute hysterics like and we are all still breathing, trying to get through it. And then, you know, that wafts off. And then before you know it, some in the corner is crying, you know, someone’s crying and then like and then the mood changes. Now that group energy is incredible when you do breath work, but you can achieve all of that sort of stuff in your own space, doing your own breath work as well. And basically your own emotional energy then gets a chance to come out. And we sort of hear a lot of people talk about, they feel a bit blocked or they feel like, you know, some thing in the

background is holding them back. You know, you have some guys, you know, all girls, you know, should limit it to just guys, you know, people in general like, you know, feel like they’ve got some pent up aggression or, or bottled up emotions. And some of those things have come from real life traumas that are actually completely real. And their body has hasn’t been able to get rid of those traumas at the time. And they’re sitting as little things in their, in their body that actually don’t benefit them, that actually sort of work against them. So a lot of those little things you can feel definitely in some of these breath work sessions.

Guys like Craig Alexander or Jan Frodeno or those guys, like they truly are some of the best athletes on the planet, Barnaan, because they mightn’t be the strongest or the fastest, but they suffer the longest. And I think that’s something that sort of is overlooked. And it’s something that draws me in every time. Yeah. And they like, they make it look so easy, like you look at Jan at Kona, makes it look so easy. And you think, oh, OK, it’s like, it’s another day out for him. But inside he, he’s got to be suffering so hard to, to be able to put up to hold that speed for that long and to be able to do it so consistently as well. Like he’s just, he’s just incredible, especially over the last few years, look at how far ahead he is of the rest of the field. Like it’s just that. Oh, yeah. It’s a real. And so you got. Yeah, sorry. There’s some, yeah, there’s just and there’s some guys in different sports that may get seen that way.

Like Phelps is the same and and Grand Hacker was one. Like, like you look at, you watch his swim in Athens in 2004 and he just looks so good the whole way through. He makes it look so comfortable and then he gets out and he almost collapses when he stands up on the block and and like Crowie was another one of those in triathlon and there’s guys like Shannon Eckstein in surf Ironman and they’re the guys that like it hurts them, but they just don’t care. Like it, there’s a goal that’s more important than the fact that it hurts. Like and a few people have said to me in the past like pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional and that’s the attitude. Like they don’t suffer. They’re in pain, but they’re not suffering. Whereas people like me or your regulars like we suffer through the last couple of hours and I think that makes it worse. Whereas they’re in pain, they understand it and they just move on. And I think that’s a part of being a professional

athlete that is overlooked the ability to just deal with it and get the job done anyway. Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn’t agree with that more. And yeah. And sometimes I think when you are breaking things down to such a simplistic level, people can feel like they’re going back to the beginning. You know what I mean? They feel like, oh my gosh, like I’m literally a beginner again, like I’m beyond this sort of thing. So that’s also very, very scary for a lot of students is when you’re trying to teach them the scales before they play Beethoven, you know, they can feel like, my God, I’m starting all over again. But as you and I both know it’s not that at all. It’s just, yeah, it’s just getting things correct. And it’s amazing. I mean, I always say that when someone is getting a lesson from me and with feel like they feel like they’re being ripped apart, it might only be a relatively simple change. But as you know, the way something feels and the way

it is a completely different things, but they can actually feel like when you’re changing it in their brain, they all they start to say to themselves, oh my God, I’m five years away from getting this. So they really they it feels like it’s five years away. But if they actually do the right work and put their time and put the time in, it can happen in months if you know what I mean. So it can feel like it’s starting all over again. But if they just stick to their processes, it can actually happen a lot faster than what they’re imagining it’s going to be. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.

The post The Best Of 2019 Podcasts appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

Coming back as a guest is Garry Hurring who is a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic coach. Gary has coached with as in our Hell Week Camp in Thanyapura, Thailand.
Here are the things we talked about:

01:15 Hell Week Camp At Thanyapura
03:26 Common Things Observed From Swimmers At Hell Week
07:05 There’s No Advice That’s Going To Fit For Everyone
07:43 It’s The Hard Stroke That’s Often The Best Stroke
09:11 Using Different Gears
14:33 One on One Coaching
19:10 The Pit Of Discomfort
22:25 Faults On The Stroke
27:48 Swimmers Struggling With Kicking
28:43 The Lack Of Wanting To Kick
31:10 Swimming Sets
36:31 Different Opinions Being Shared

Previous podcast episode with Garry Hurring:
How To Change Your Technique From An Olympic Coaches’ Perspective Simple Changes, Big Results with Gary Hurring

Effortless Swimming Camps
Noosa
Hawaii Swim Camp
2020 Hell Week Camp (Thailand)

Online Membership
Freestyle Clinics Around Australia

Transcription:

Brenton: Welcome to the Effortless Swimming podcast. My guest today is Gary Hurring, who’s a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic coach from New Zealand. Gary, welcome to the podcast.

Gary Hurring: Thanks, Brenton. Nice to be here.

Brenton: Well, we just got back, what was it, about a month ago from Thailand. We had our Hell Week camps over there, and that was the first Hell Week camp that you’d attended. You’d previously come to the Hawaii camps, but it was the first Hell Week camps. What was your experience over there coaching some of the athletes that we had over there at Hell Week?

Gary Hurring: I think that the standout experience was how amazing the facilities were there. It was such an incredible environment for the athletes to come along and spend a week with the 50-meter pool and the accommodation and the restaurant looking over the pool and all the sports facilities there. It was just a perfect environment for a training camp. The athletes themselves, we had the two groups come in, and they were all quite different, so there were a lot of individual things that I picked up from those swimmers. But just, in general, the thing that blew me away from my first experience over in Thailand, it was just the whole Thanyapura sports facility. It was amazing.

Brenton: Yeah, we’re so lucky to have that somewhat close by to Australia and New Zealand and just to be able to use that facility. I remember five years ago when a friend of mine was working there and he said, “Oh, you should bring a group of swimmers over and bring them over for a camp.” And I originally thought, I don’t know who’s going to want to come over and do a camp with me, but I’ll put it out there, open it up, and see if anyone wants to come. It’s really become one of the things I really look forward to each year when we run these camps in October.

Brenton: And the facilities, as you said, it’s just so perfect with everything on-site, everything’s taken care of, and you can really just train. You can eat without having to worry about cooking or anything. You can sleep, rest, recover, and really just enjoy yourself. So, we were so lucky to have that facility there.

Brenton: This podcast, what I want to focus in on is talking about some examples from Hell Week with swimmers who were able to make some really significant changes to their stroke and to their speed over the course of those seven days and how someone listening to this podcast could potentially make those changes in their own stroke by applying some of the things that we went through at Hell Week. You work primarily probably with the slower lanes there in Thailand, and you mentioned before the call that there was a couple of common themes that you saw there with those swimmers. So, do you want to touch on what some of those common themes were with their technique and how you went about making those changes to their stroke?

Gary Hurring: Yeah, sure. There was two to three things that really did prevail with the swimmers over in the slower lanes that I was working with predominantly. Often the first things that I’m trying to identify just to try and get an overview of the person and see if we can work on the biggest things that I see, the terminology that comes to mind is to work on the big rocks as a theory of trying to get the big stuff right first and then working your way down to the little rocks and working on the smaller, more details of technique, but I would always look for body positioning or the ability for the so-called performance platform of the body and how it looked in the water, whether the hips were high enough, whether there was back arch, whether there was head positioning issues often through breathing and other things that stood out in the body positioning area where the sometimes excessive kicking for the speed that was being generated.

Gary Hurring: Often you’ll see a swimmer that’s kicking too hard when they’re actually just swimming in an aerobic pace. It would indicate to me that they’re kicking in order to keep lift rather than to actually get any propulsion out of it. And if you can then work on a body position that can help generate its own lift, then that kicking can go away and thus save an awful lot of energy, as we all know how puffed we get when we swim when we kick very hard. So, those were often just big indicators. It would red flag something else that was going on in the swimmer, and I’d then try and rectify that body positioning in however we could do that in a number of ways.

Gary Hurring: The other things that stood out were quite often I would see the swimmers reaching forward too much on their catch. They were catching in quite a shallow position and thus missing out on leverage that they could generate by just generally trying to get a deeper catch and potentially maybe a slightly but more rhythmic stroke rather than the just trying to reach and all about distance per stroke. Sometimes the concept of distance per stroke is not about reaching forward as far as you can with your hands but getting down and getting leverage will then allow you more power to pull yourself better through the water. And that’s how you’re getting your distance per stroke. Sometimes just reaching forward with the hand can be quite just a subconscious way that people think they’re getting distance, but they’re actually not.

Brenton: There’s so much subtlety and nuance to that stuff too, isn’t there? Like, when we work on the catch in the pool, there’s a lot of swimmers who go too deep with their arms and they’re very straight. But then there’s also swimmers who are way too shallow to be able to get any of that leverage that you’re talking about. And so that’s why I think it really comes down to the individual. There’s no advice that’s going to fit for everyone, because there’s all these little nuances to the things that people are doing. And it just depends on what that is for that individual.

Gary Hurring: Yeah, that’s so true. And you were absolutely right, some of the swimmers were just driving down too deeply and not getting any sort of leverage on their catch at all, so very much an individual area of the stroke. Quite often when I first look at someone, trying to ignore the wood for the trees, if you know what I mean, and just almost glue my eyes and see if I can see something standing out with that swimmer. Often, it’s a little bit different, per swimmer.

Gary Hurring: Quite often, swimmers over time, they don’t realize it, but it’s the hard stroke that’s often the best stroke, the stroke that’s making them tired. They don’t realize that they’re actually subconsciously letting that hard stroke go, because they’re doing quite a few laps and it’s tiring to do it that way. They will, as I’ve said, subconsciously, they’re not aware of it. They’ll actually let go of the water a little bit and find an easier way to rotate through the water. So sometimes it’s about bringing the swimmer back to that awareness of actually grabbing the water and working with the stroke that maybe is not such a pleasant stroke to work with so you can develop it and get stronger with it.

Brenton: Yeah, I really like in reference to that hard stroke, it’s not the stroke that’s where you’re pulling as hard as you possibly can, but it’s the stroke that might be quite tiring as you’re pulling through, because you’re holding a lot more water than what you were before. And one of the things that really resonated, I think, with the people at Hell Week, you were talking about different gears, I might actually let you explain it, but the reference or the analogy of using different gears and where you should probably spend most of your time training in the bigger gear, and then when it comes to racing, it makes the lower gears a lot easier to settle into. Can you explain the reference to the gears? Because that helped a lot of swimmers on camp.

Gary Hurring: Yeah, sure. It was a concept that I didn’t come up with. I first heard of it from a famous American coach called David Salo. Several of his swimmers I’ve worked with in the New Zealand swim team, and they really relayed, plus he’s talked to me about it, the gear system.

Gary Hurring: It’s just a really simplified way of looking at the power of a stroke. He talks about five gears. He will talk about that as a training intensity issue as well. He’ll tell swimmers, “I want this set to be done in fifth gear,” or “I want this set to be done in third gear.” And so it sort of relates not only to stroke but in amounts of work or energy that you’re using up in the pool.

Gary Hurring: But first gear, obviously, in terms of a bike or a car or something like that is the big strong cog that maybe takes a bit more power to get around, but once you get that gear moving, that’s when you’re really going to find your top speed. And as you can go down the gears, sometimes depending on distance, you want to try and find the right gear for the distance that you’re working on. And it may be that if you’re doing a long ocean swim, you might want to be settling into sort of a third gear, third and a half, fourth gear. And just finding that efficiency in something that’s quite fast, but it’s strong, you’ve got good leverage, and above all, you’re getting decent speed without getting too tired so there’s sort of a rhythmic energy to that third, fourth gear. And then when you really want to overtake or work to a finish of a race, or perhaps it’s a shorter race, then you want a bit of power into that gear rating, so you might want to be able to chop up.

Gary Hurring: But as a coach, I notice a lot of times swimmers find it difficult to change gears. So I think it’s a important thing to be practicing and training, that concept of working through the gears. Some swimmers find it very, very difficult to do that, and they find that they get stuck in those middle gears, and they can’t find a top gear or even a lower gear. It is an interesting concept to work with.

Brenton: Yeah. And I like the way that with crews, we’ve got so much time there on camp, you know? It’s not like we’re just doing an hour and a half session. It’s seven days of two sessions a day. I think for those that were struggling with it, we’re able to get them to have a pretty good sense of what they needed to do to be able to shift gears. Like, we did quite a bit of stroke count work, just some fifties, I think it might’ve been like 10 fifties, where we had them do minimum stroke count, but in that minimum stroke count, it’s not like you’re holding the glide for two or three seconds, it’s just keep your normal rhythm going.

Brenton: But the way that you can reduce your stroke count is to either reduce the drag or increase the propulsion and then the effectiveness of your kick and your rotation and your catch and pull. Just getting them to practice that, that’s really like that fifth gear where you’re just looking to really maximize the distance per stroke. And then we did quite a bit of variable pace work. Like, we did quite a few sets of 200s and 100s where we had them go one easy, one medium, one fast, and just giving them their times as they went through it.

Brenton: I found throughout the week, the majority of the swimmers were getting a lot better at being able to shift those gears and change the speed as they went. Whereas there was probably half the swimmers, I’d say, at the start of the camp, who when they went to increase their speed, they didn’t actually go any faster than the second one, and sometimes even the first one. It all just sort of blended into one. That’s the ability to change the gears, but I found they really were able to improve that with those different sets that we were doing.

Brenton: I mean, we saw some pretty dramatic changes with, particularly, some of the swimmers in those slower lanes, where we had swimmers who started out around the 2:30, 2:40 Mark per 100. And then by the end of the camp, they were down to around that two-minute mark when they were really pushing it. What changes did you see happen for those swimmers who were able to make such big improvements in such a short space of time?

Gary Hurring: Well, I think there’s a range of things. Sometimes we would just see those changes from fitness that the swimmers were getting through the week. You’d see them often go on second and third day through a bit of a tired patch, but before the end of the week most of them were really breaking through. And you could see the fitness, especially during all that long course 50 meter swimming outdoors.

Gary Hurring: But technical changes, I’d like to think that they’d embraced the things we’d talked about, and that that was the magic wand. Surely, it is at the end of the day. It’s just that sometimes you can see someone just instantly it’s a light bulb moment, and what you’ve discussed with them, they’ve got straight away, and they’re liking it straight away. But sometimes it’s a three, four, five-day process, and you’ll often see them getting onto what you’re talking three days later. I’ve had several swimmers coming up and saying things like that, “I only just felt what you were talking about on Monday,” sort of thing.

Gary Hurring: So yeah, I think it is a whole range of those sorts of things and just clicking. I think one of the neat things we also get on camp was, because we had so many coaches, that everyone got analyzed by everyone. I would have swimmers coming to me and saying something that you’d said to them really resonated, and then it helped them, and it exemplified what I’d said or something Mitch had said. I think because we were all often on the same wavelength, it just really helped the swimmers to get that reinforcement from different angles and spoken in different ways.

Brenton: Yeah, that’s one of the real benefits I think to being able to have so many coaches on camp. We’ve got seven camps coming up next year, which I think you’re doing six of, so you’ll be at the Noosa camp in March, the two Hawaii camps in July, and then the Hell Week camps in October. And we’ve got, let’s see, minimum three coaches for each of those, but I think even four or five for some of the other camps. And the way that we structure the weeks are in the afternoons, typically in the afternoons, we do two-on-one coaching where we do filming and you get to work really closely with each coach each day. And you’re exactly right, a lot of people would come up to me and said, “Oh, this thing that Gary said, this made a difference.”

Brenton: Or like an example that I had, one of the swimmers on camp, she was having trouble basically with the exit of her stroke. She was too wide. I think it was on the second day that we were doing the two-on-one coaching, Mitch had said to her, “Look, just imagine that you’re coming into your opposite hip on your other side when you go to the exit.” And that’s kind of the exaggeration she had to feel to fix her exit and get it in closer to her hip. It was just that one idea that allowed her to make that change and just fix something that she’d been working on for a very long time. It’s just different messages. Same point but a different message, and sometimes different things will connect with different people. That’s what I really love. I really want to make sure that people get that pretty much one-on-one coaching at the camp, and that’s why I’m no longer running these camps by myself.

Brenton: I mean, five years ago when I ran the first Hell Week, it was me and about 20 swimmers, and that was way too much. I don’t know if we did video analysis then, but now it’s minimum three coaches if not more. Geez, it makes such a difference with the improvement that people make and certainly makes my job a lot easier as well. Because it’s nice to be able to let you and Mitch and Phil just do your thing, cause you’ve been in this sport for so long, and you know what you’re doing. It’s just great to be able to just trust that you guys, you’ve got the knowledge, you’ve got the coaching there, and you can just do your thing, which is really, really good.

Brenton: One of the things that I picked up from you, I think it was on the first podcast that we recorded, was the pit of discomfort, talking about the awkward and uncomfortable feeling that you’re going to have when you’re changing your stroke. I relay that as much as I possibly can, because I think you put wording to the thing that I knew was there, but I didn’t have a great way of explaining it. And now I really preface camps and clinics with that pit of discomfort that you’re going to go through. For those people who haven’t heard that before, could you explain what that is that people will experience when they’re improving their stroke?

Gary Hurring: Yeah. Well again, not my concept. It was something that was taught to me on a coaching course, and it was very general. It’s not just for swimming, it’s for all sports, but it was a neurologist talked about it. Just in terms of motor-skill learning and neurally adapting to new techniques and new habit-forming, basically his concept was that you pretty much have to go into a discomfort pit, or he labeled it the pit of discomfort. You go into that for a while, because it’s just so alien from what you’re used to doing. So if you’re making a change, unless you go into that pit of discomfort, you might not actually be making any change at all, because it’s the change that’s the uncomfortableness, because you’re basically setting whole new neural pathways. You’re accessing new muscles and different timing sequences, then you’ve ever used before.

Gary Hurring: But if you think about it logically, that’s how you make a new technique happen. That’s how through repetition, through that pit of discomfort, then you come out with a habit. Ideally, what we all want is good habits in the pool or any sort of physical activity that we’re doing. We want those things to be able to happen naturally through repetition and practice.

Gary Hurring: So yeah, it’s something that I really embrace myself whenever I’m doing any sort of sport or training. I always think that uncomfortable feeling is worth persevering through. Oftentimes, if you know that the concept of what you’re doing makes sense, and if you know that the way that you’re doing it should make certain muscle groups feel tired or uncomfortable, then you embrace those specific uncomfortableness feelings, and you work with them, and you bring them aboard as part of your routine. Generally, the pit is just a pit. You’ll generally come out the other end and feel way better because of it at some point. There’s often just that awkward period when you’re making change. That’s pretty much what the pit’s all about.

Brenton: I want to talk about the connectedness in the stroke. One of the swimmers that we had was, basically, having trouble with keeping his arm out in front while he was getting the breath. His arm that was in front kept dropping down, elbow was dropped, and he just couldn’t keep it out there and really get the timing of the stroke to keep it front quadrant. He was just really struggling. He’s quite tight through the shoulders as well, so mobility is there too.

Brenton: But one of the things that you had this swimmer do to be able to keep that lead arm out in front for balance and support and to get a better catch was you actually had him slow down the hand at the back of the stroke through the exit just to be able to keep pressure on the water and provide propulsion for him to be able to keep that lead arm there. Because one of the things you noticed was he was coming out a bit short, which was causing that hand to drop. What are some of those other things in the stroke? Well, first of all, if you could talk about that and how you noticed it, but what are some of those other things that are connected in the stroke as well that you tend to look at if there’s certain faults or flaws in the stroke?

Gary Hurring: Yeah, I’m a firm believer that there’s all sorts of magic rhythmic patterns in swimming. It’s quite mathematical in some weird way, in an artistic way. Everything’s related. Long axes strokes, freestyle and backstroke, it’s related to the body roll. Your roll from side to side is the engine that powers your stroke, but you can’t get a good roll unless your kicking timing is correct and the feet give you a little bit of pressure in order to push the hips and the shoulders and get that roll going. You need to purchase on your feet in order to get the body rolling. So the timing of the kick is incredibly linked, whether it’s a two-beat kick or a six-beat kick, so that just rolls from side to side with the hips and shoulders. And then, the stroke is in sync with that as well.

Gary Hurring: There are little patterns. Like, if you’re looking at the front end of a stroke, also have a look at the back of the other arm’s stroke. What’s the finish of a strike doing while the other stroke’s catching? Because if you’re not pushing back enough with one hand, then you’re not getting that good push and glide that’s reaching you into the next stroke with the other hand. There’s a real connection between the finish of one stroke and the catch of another.

Gary Hurring: It was something that I really worked on a lot with backstroke. Backstroke’s slightly different from freestyle. There’s not a catch-up aspect to it at all. It’s a very [inaudible 00:24:36] stroke, but you really need a seamless transition of push from one hand into the catch of the other. That concept itself is very, very similar in freestyle, even though it’s slightly different timing of where you’re doing that. But those sort of things, the timing of the breathing, working with the roll of the shoulders and the rhythm of the kick, all of those sort of things, trying to get those timing patterns right, oftentimes it’s even more noticeable in strokes like butterfly and breaststroke. If you get the timing out on those strokes, the stroke can be very, very hard to do.

Brenton: One of the things I’ve started to give a lot of the online members who send their videos in for analysis is tending to look a lot more at the feet. If the timing’s out and that connectedness with the kick and the rotation in the front end of the strike, if it’s not quite there, a lot of them, I’ll give them six 50s with a kickboard and a snorkel, building one to three. So easy, medium, fast 50, do that twice through. It doesn’t need to be a lot if they’re not doing anything at the moment, but just that pure kicking as part of their warmup and doing that across four or five, six weeks, I’ve seen a big difference just in the entire stroke once they have that more effective kick with that little bit of downwards and upwards pressure with the down and upbeat.

Brenton: Yeah, exactly right, for the swimmers where there’s just no connectedness through the kick, it’s very hard to get that front end working without it. I think when I first probably started coaching triathletes, I had probably a bit less of a focus on it, because I was like, well you don’t really need to be kicking hard for those longer distances. But the thing I was missing there was, well, yeah, you need an effective kick though, which means that it’ll help you with the hip rotation and everything else. It is certainly important. Even though it’s not necessarily going to provide a lot of propulsion, it will help with everything else. It’s something that I’ve started to look a lot more at.

Brenton: For swimmers who struggle with kicking, there are a lot of swimmers who can’t go forwards when they’re kicking, their ankle in flexibility is really bad, I just get them to start out with fins on and get started that way. And then that will help to loosen up the ankles. You’re probably best having some good fins like the DMC fins that we recommend. Because if you’re using maybe some of the Speedo fins, which can be very stiff and very heavy, then it’s not great for your ankle flexibility. So, some good fins, just kick with those first, then a kickboard and a snorkel so you’ve got your head down, and then you’ll eventually get to the point where you can just take them off and move forward. It might be a very slow progression for people that might be in their fifties, sixties, and so on, and you’re very tight through the ankles, but you can get there, and it can make a world of difference once you do. Have you seen that with a lot of swimmers who are in their fifties and sixties who have maybe come from a running background and-

Gary Hurring: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, we’ll try not to generalize too much, but there does seem to be a lack of wanting to kick of the adults, especially you’ll see from some of the triathletes, so it’s interesting you say that. My adult fitness and triathlete ocean sport squads, you see them lifting their noses up to doing kick steps.

Brenton: Yeah.

Gary Hurring: I can see on the surface that it’s maybe not relevant, especially when you get a wet suit on. But I keep coming back to, it just makes you a better swimmer because you cause stability. If you’re kick timing throughout, it helps the rotation probably through the stroke and through the hips. There’s some absolutely amazing world-class, world champion swimmers that have been two-beat kickers. You don’t have to have a six-beat, powerful sprint kick. The timing and the drive of those two-beat kicks is usually very good for a good swimmer.

Gary Hurring: So, it is something that I think is very important. I think being able to kick with, like you say, good flippers, being able to do different types of kicking, I think is very important. Just kicking on your front with a board, generally puts you in a bad body position. It arches your back, it lets you bend your knees but too much focuses on a down-kick more than an up-kick. So I like to mix up the kicking, do some on your back. Especially on your side is very good, because you’ve got even pressure both ways in the water so you can feel an up and a down kick. That drive coming from both directions of kick is really, really important. That drive, that purchase that you want to be working with the hips and the height of the hips and the roll of the hips, that sort of thing I think is very important. Just to mix it up, and just look at it as an overall part of swimming. It’s just a drill, basically, to try and help the rest of stroke improve.

Brenton: Yeah. And just to finish up, as we’re going through some of the sets at Hell Week, typically, we’d have one more of a training session in the day and then one more skills and technique focus session. In the sessions where we’re working a bit harder, and it was more of a training session, as you’re working with some of those guys and girls in the slow lane, particularly, think of the DC special, which is the 40, 50 set that we always finish up Hell Week with, where, basically, the set is 16 50s where you go every fourth one fast, 12 50s where every third on is fast, eight where every second is fast, and then the last four all fast, what message did you have for the swimmers as they’re going through that in order for them to be able to maintain their pace in those fast ones throughout the whole set and keep their stroke together? I think in both weeks and across all of the lanes, people really finished off well with that, that DC special set. What were some of the messages that you were giving to those swimmers to be able to sustain their pace?

Gary Hurring: A lot of times I was actually trying to hold them back, cause I knew the length of that set, what it was going to be for the level of the swimmers. A lot of times it was a bit about, hey, let’s relax more now, just stretch it out, work on your stroke on these easy ones, and so on, just so that we could get the different paces of gears. I think a lot of the swimmers, I was basically giving them times on every one that they were coming in. And I don’t think a lot of those swimmers had had that degree of coming in and someone telling them exactly how the work that they’ve done equated to an improvement in time. That sometimes was just a really nice thing to have, that knowledge of what your time pacing is. So yeah, that was a great feeling. I really enjoyed working with the swimmers on that one.

Brenton: I know just from my own history, it’s quite motivating if you’ve got someone there giving you your times and you don’t need to look at your watch, don’t need to look at the stop clock. You’re getting your times there, and all you need to focus in on is your output and your effort. I’d say, half the swimmers at each of the camps here probably don’t get that on a regular basis just in their squads, so they’re not exactly sure what the effort required is for the times. And yeah, in terms of holding back at the start of, let’s say, a 2K main set like that, you’ve really got to hold back, because it’s pretty easy to burn all of your matches at the start in the first 10 to 15 50s if you are going completely and all out in those fast ones.

Brenton: You’re right, a lot of it is about knowing how to pace it and how to just take it easy at the start, because, I mean, it doesn’t usually take a lot of extra effort to increase the speed. It means you just hold that good technique, add in a little bit more effort, but you can see a pretty good result, a couple seconds per 50 faster by doing that. Your easy ones might be a five out of 10, and your fast ones might be an eight out of 10, but it’s pretty easy to go to a 10 out of 10 and maybe only go half a second faster for that 50, but you’ve burnt your matches early on. Whereas, all you want to do is just sit at that eight out of 10 instead. I think that’s what can be a real skill to learn to do. But the more often you do those types of sets, the better you get at it, and that really transfers into your ability to hold a good pace in the races that you’re doing.

Gary Hurring: Yeah, absolutely. And oftentimes that eight out of 10, an effort would be the 10 out of 10 and time without them realizing it. You know, you’d get the fastest time on the ones that were just being worked on efficiently and, like you say, at about an eight level. You would often see swimmers as they tried harder perhaps create more drag by thrashing or so on.

Brenton: Yeah. And that’s one of the things that can be good about camps. The environment is everyone’s generally pretty relaxed. Maybe at the start everyone’s figuring it out first day so they’re not as relaxed, but as they go through it, people are in a good head space. We do those breathing exercises. They’re in paradise. The weather’s good. It’s sunny. Everyone’s just in that head space where they’re not trying to force things. And that’s what I notice, I guess, at a camp compared to maybe a squad is that people are just in that environment. People can change a lot, a lot easier and a lot quicker, when they come from that place of calmness, of relaxation, and not trying to overdo things.

Gary Hurring: Yeah, absolutely. You saw people settle in as the week went on. It was just such a beautiful environment with all the trees around them and all the water.

Gary Hurring: Like we were talking about earlier, I think from my point of view working, having that sharing ability with all four of us coaches, it’s quite novel. Because coming from a high-performance background, the coaches might talk to each other about concepts, but the high-performance swimmers or the coaches were often very possessive about their swimmers, and they didn’t want other coaches working with them. So, you know, it was all about the relationship between that coach and that swimmer. And you see that a lot in high performance swimming. So, it’s so refreshing to have those different opinions being all dished out, four different coaches giving concepts. But again, they’re generally not different concepts. They’re all pretty much on the same wavelength that we were working with, because we are talking so much out of the pool about our coaching concepts with each other. We’re all sort of learning from each other at the same time. It is just a really novel thing, I think, especially from my background as a coach.

Brenton: Yeah, and it’s good to be a part of that. Like, for me, I really thoroughly enjoyed the camps in Thailand, because it’s just a good group of coaches. All the swimmers, they’re there cause they want to improve, but they’re also there to have a holiday, to be able to relax, and just enjoy being over there.

Brenton: Next year, we’re coaching it at Noosa, Hawaii, and in Thailand. If you’re listening, and you want to work with myself and Gary, all of those camps are on our website, so you can check out the details there. But basically got Noosa in March and May, Hawaii in July, and then the Thailand camps in October. So yeah, we’re really looking forward to those and having you back there on deck. It’s going to be a lot of fun.

Brenton: And as you said, it’s probably a slightly different environment to what you’re used to. We train hard, and we put a lot into it, but I just really love the relaxed environment that we can have at each of these places. And the fact that we get to go to such beautiful destinations, I mean, I really love them. That’s why I’ve got seven camps going next year, where it was, what was it, three this year? I just thought, yeah, this is what I really enjoy. So I want to just do more of them. Which of the camps are you looking forward to the most?

Gary Hurring: Oh gosh. You know, honestly, I really, like you, enjoy them all. You know, I haven’t done Noosa yet, so I’m not sure what that’s like. I am looking forward to that, cause I’ve never been to Noosa, which is a strange thing. I think it’s almost transplanting, isn’t it? Hawaii was quite similar to me to Thailand in content of what we were delivering. There was a bit more work in Hell Week then in Hawaii, but, in general, it was really the focus on technique and working with the swimmers and trying to find the challenges involved with helping people to improve their strokes. So I look forward to that no matter where that is. So yeah, I don’t know if I have a favorite yet.

Brenton: Yeah, no. It’s-

Gary Hurring: I’ll let you know next year.

Brenton: I’m looking forward to all that. Thanks for joining me on the podcast, and we will catch up in March. And yeah, really looking forward to that first camp in Noosa.

Gary Hurring: Yeah. Thanks very much for having me on the podcast again. I’ll look forward to it in the future.

pretty much have to go into a discomfort platter. He labeled it the pit of discomfort. You go into that for a while because it’s just so alien from what you’re used to doing. So if you’re making a change, unless you go into that pit of discomfort, you might not actually be making any sort of change at all because it’s the change that’s the uncomfortableness because you’re basically setting whole new neural pathways. You’re accessing new muscles and different timing sequences than you’ve ever used before. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. My guest today is Gary Haring, who’s a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic coach from New Zealand. Gary, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Brenton. Nice to be here. We just got back, what was it,

about a month ago from Thailand, we had our Hau’i camps over there. And that was the first Hau’i camp that you’d attended. You previously come to the Hawaii camps, but it was the first Hau’i camps. And what was your experience over there coaching some of the athletes that we had over there at Hau’i? I think that the standout experience was how amazing the facilities were there. It was such an incredible environment for the athletes to come along and spend a week with the 50-meter pole and the accommodation and the restaurant looking over the pole and all the sports facilities there. It was just sort of a perfect environment for a training camp.

The athletes themselves, we had the two groups come in and they were all quite different. So there was a lot of individual things that I picked up from those swimmers, but just in general, the thing that sort of blew me away from my first experience over in Thailand was that it was just the whole Tanyapura sports facility. It was amazing. Yeah, we’re so lucky to have that somewhat close by to Australia and New Zealand and just to be able to use that facility. I remember five years ago when a friend of mine was working there and he said, oh, you should bring a group of swimmers over and bring them over for a camp. And I originally thought, I don’t know who’s gonna wanna come over and do a camp with me, but I’ll put it out there, open it up and see if anyone wants to come. And it’s really become one of the things I really look forward to each year when we run these camps in October. And the facilities, as you said, are just so perfect with everything on site.

Everything’s taken care of. And you can really just, you can train, you can eat without having to worry about cooking or anything. You can sleep, rest, recover and really just enjoy yourself. So we’re so lucky to have that facility there. And this podcast, what I wanna sort of focus in on is talking about some examples from How Week with swimmers who were able to make some really significant changes to their stroke and to their speed over the course of those seven days and how someone listening to this podcast could potentially make those changes in their own stroke by applying some of the things that we went through at How Week. And you work primarily probably with the slower lanes there in Thailand. And you mentioned before the call that there was a couple of common themes that you saw there with those swimmers. So do you wanna touch on what some of those common themes were with their technique and how you went about making those changes

to their stroke?

Yeah, I was working with predominantly.

You know, often the first things that I’m trying to identify, you know, just to try and get an overview of the person and see if we can work on the biggest things that I see. And, you know, the terminology that comes to mind is to work on the big rocks as a theory of trying to get the big stuff right first and then sort of working your way down to the little rocks and working on the smaller, more details of technique. But I would always look for body positioning or the ability for the so-called performance platform of the body and how it looked in the water, whether the hips were high enough, whether there was back arch, head positioning issues often through breathing.

And other things that sort of stood out in the body positioning area were the sometimes excessive kicking for the speed that was being generated. So often if you’ll see a trauma that’s kicking too hard when they’re actually just swimming in an aerobic pace, it would indicate to me that they’re kicking in order to keep lift rather than to actually get any propulsion out of it. And if you can then work on a body position that can help generate its own lift, then that kicking can go away and thus save an awful lot of energy as we all know how puffed we get when we swim when we kick very hard. So those were often just big indicators

that would sort of red flag something that else that was going on in the swimmer. And I’d then sort of try and rectify that body position and however we could do that in a number of ways. The other things that stood out were quite often I would see the swimmer’s reaching forward too much on their catch. So they were catching in quite a shallow position and thus missing out on leverage that they could generate by just generally just trying to get a deeper catch and potentially a maybe a slightly more rhythmic stroke

rather than the sort of the just trying to reach and all about distance per stroke. Sometimes the concept of distance per stroke is not about reaching forward as far as you can with your hands but getting down and getting leverage will then allow you more power to pull yourself better through the water and that’s how you’re getting your distance per stroke. So sometimes just reaching forward with the hand can be quite a just a subconscious way that people think they’re getting distance but they’re actually not. There’s so much subtlety and nuance to that sort of stuff too isn’t there? Like when we work on the catch and the pull like there’s a lot of swimmers who go so go too deep with their arms and they’re very straight but then there’s also swimmers who are way too shallow to be able to get any of that leverage that you’re talking about. And so that’s why I think it’s it really comes down to the individual like there’s no advice that’s gonna fit for everyone

because there’s all these little nuances to the things that people are doing and it just depends on what it is for that individual. So true and you were absolutely right some of the swimmers were just driving down too deeply and not getting any sort of leverage on the catch. And also so very much an individual area of the stroke. You know, quite often when I first look at it from my try and ignore the woods for the trees if you know what I mean and just sort of almost blur my eyes and see if I can see something standing out with that swimmer and often it’s a little bit different per swimmer and quite often swimmers over time they don’t realize it but it’s the hard stroke that’s often the best stroke. So it’s the stroke that’s making them tired and they don’t realize that they’re actually subconsciously letting that hard stroke go because they’re doing quite a few laps and it’s tiring to do it that way. They will, you know, as I said subconsciously

they’re not aware of it. They’ll actually let go of the water a little bit and find an easier way to rotate through the water. So, you know, sometimes it’s about bringing the swimmer back to that awareness of actually grabbing the water and working with the stroke but maybe it’s not such a pleasant stroke to work with but until you can develop it and get stronger with it. Yeah, I really like in reference to that hard stroke it’s not the stroke that’s where you’re pulling as hard as you possibly can but it’s the stroke that might be quite tiring as you’re pulling through because you’re holding a lot more water than what you were before and one of the things that really resonated I think with the people at Hell Week you’re talking about different gears so imagine you’ve got, I might actually let you explain it but the reference or the analogy of using different gears and where you should probably spend most of your time

training in the bigger gear and then when it comes to racing it makes the lower gears a lot easier to kind of settle into. So can you explain the reference to the gears because that helped a lot of swimmers on camp? Yeah, sure, it was a concept that I didn’t come up with I first heard of it from a famous American coach called David Salo and he talked with his swimmers who are some several of his swimmers I’ve worked with in the New Zealand Swim Team

and they’ve really relayed plus he’s talked to me about the gear system it’s just a really simplified way of looking at the power of a stroke and he talks about five gears he will talk about that as a training intensity issue as well

he’ll tell swimmers I want this set to be done in fifth gear or I want this set to be done in third gear and so it sort of relates not only to stroke but in amounts of work or energy that you’re using up in the pool

but fifth gear obviously in terms of a bike or a car or something like that is the big strong cog that maybe takes a bit more power to get around but once you get that gear moving that’s when you’re really gonna find your top speed and as you can go down the gears sometimes depending on distance you wanna try and find the right gear for the distance that you work on and it may be that if you’re doing a long ocean swim you might wanna be settling into sort of a third gear third, third and a half, fourth gear and just finding that efficiency and something that’s quite fast but it’s strong you’ve got good leveraging and above all you’re getting decent speed without getting too tired so that’s sort of a rhythmic energy to that third, fourth gear

and then you can when you really wanna sort of overtake or work to a finish of a race or perhaps it’s a shorter race then you want a bit of power into that gear rating so you might wanna be able to chop up but as a coach I’ll notice a lot of times swimmers find it difficult to change gears so I think it’s an important thing to be practicing and training is that concept of working through the gears

some swimmers find it very, very difficult to do that and they find that they get stuck in sort of those middle gears and they can’t find a top gear or even a lower gear so it is an interesting concept to work with. Yeah and I like the way that cruise we’ve got so much time there on camp you know it’s not like we’re just doing an hour and a half session it’s seven days of two sessions a day and I think we’re able to get people for those that were struggling with it we’re able to get them to have a pretty good sense of what they needed to do to be able to shift gears like we did quite a bit of stroke count work like just some fifties where I think it might have been like 10 fifties where we had them do minimum stroke count but in that minimum stroke count it’s not like you’re holding the glide for two or three seconds it’s just keep your normal rhythm going but the way that you can reduce your stroke count is to either reduce the drag

or increase the propulsion and then the effectiveness of your kick and your rotation and your catch and pull and just getting them to practice that and that’s really kind of like that fifth gear where you’re just looking to really maximise the distance per stroke and then we did quite a bit of variable pace work like we did quite a few sets of 200s and 100s where we had them go sort of one easy, one medium, one fast and just to be able and giving them their times as they went through it and I found throughout the week majority of the swimmers were getting a lot better at being able to shift those gears and change the speed as they went whereas there was probably half the swimmers I’d say at the start of the camp who when they went to increase the speed they didn’t actually go any faster than the second one and sometimes even the first one like it all just sort of blended into one and that’s that ability to change the gears

but I found they really were able to improve that with those different sets that we were doing and I mean we saw some pretty dramatic changes with particularly some of the swimmers in those slower lanes where we had swimmers who started out around the sort of 230, 240 mark per 100 and then by the end of the camp they were down to around that sort of two minute mark when they were really sort of pushing it and what changes did you see happen for like those swimmers who were able to make such big improvements in such a short space of time? I think there’s a range of things that was sometimes we would just see those changes from fitness that the swimmers were getting through the week you’d see them sort of often go on second and third day they’d go through a bit of a tired patch but before the end of the week that most of them were really breaking through and you could see the fitness especially doing all that long course

50 meter swimming outdoors but you know technical changes I’d like to think that that embraced the things we’d talked about and you know that that was the magic wand and you know surely it is at the end of the day it’s just that oftentimes it’s quite you know you can sometimes you can see as you know you can see someone just instantly it’s a light bulb moment and what you’ve discussed with them they’ve got straight away and they’re liking it straight away but sometimes it’s a three, four, five day process and you’ll often see them getting on to what you’re talking about three days later and I had several swimmers coming up and saying things like that I’ve only just felt what you were talking about on Monday sort of thing

so yeah I think it is a whole range of those sorts of things and just clicking and I think one of the neat things we also did on campus because we had so many coaches that everyone got analysed by everyone and so I would have swimmers coming to me and saying something that you’d said to them really resonated and then it helped them and clarified what I’d said or something Mitch had said and I think because we were often on the same sort of wavelength

it just really helped the swimmers to get that reinforcement from different angles and spoken in different ways Yeah that’s one of the real benefits I think to having being able to have so many coaches on camp and that’s what like we’ve got seven camps coming up next year which you’ve which I think you’re doing six of so you’ll be at the NUSA camp in March the two Hawaii camps in July and then the Hawaii camps in October and we’ve got, I’m just saying we’ve got minimum three coaches for each of those but I think even four or five for some of the other camps and the way that we sort of structure the weeks are we’ve in the afternoons typically in the afternoons we do sort of two on one coaching where we do filming and you get to work really closely with each coach each day and it’s that, you’re exactly right it’s like a lot of people come out to me and said, oh this thing that Gary said this made the difference so like an example that I had

one of the swimmers on camp has she was having trouble basically with the exit of her stroke she was too wide and I think it was on the second day that we were doing the two on one coaching Mitch had said to her, just imagine that you’re coming into your opposite hip on your other side when you go to exit and that’s kind of the exaggeration she had to feel to fix her exit and get it in closer to her hip and it was that it was just that one idea that allowed her to make that change and just fix something that she’d been working on for a very long time and it’s just the different messages same point but different message and sometimes it’ll different things will connect with different people and that’s what I really love and I sort of sort of I really want to make sure that people get that that pretty much one on one coaching at the camp and that’s why I’m no longer running these camps by myself I mean five years ago when I ran the first Hell Week

it was me and about 20 swimmers and that was way too much and I don’t know if we did video analysis then but now it’s minimum three coaches if not more and Jesus makes such a difference with the improvement that people make and certainly makes my job a lot easier as well because it’s nice to be able to let you and Mitch and Phil just kind of do your thing because you’ve been in this sport for so long and you know what you’re doing and it’s just great to be able to just trust that you guys will you’ve got the knowledge you’ve got the coaching there and you can just kind of do your thing which is really really good and one of the things that I picked up from you I think it was on the first podcast that we recorded was the pit of discomfort talking about the awkward and uncomfortable feeling that you’re going to have when you’re changing your stroke and I relay that as much as I possibly can because it’s kind of I think you put wording

kind of put the wording to the thing that I knew was there but I didn’t have a great way of explaining it and now I really preface camps and clinics with that pit of discomfort that you’re going to go through and for those people who haven’t heard that before could you explain what that is that people will experience when they’re improving their stroke? My concept was something I was taught to me on a coaching course and it was very general it’s not just for swimming it’s for all sports but it was a neurologist who talked about it and just in terms of motor skill learning and neuroly and adapting to new techniques and new habit forming and basically his concept was that you pretty much have to go into a discomfort platter he labelled it the pit of discomfort you go into that for a while because it’s just so alien from what you’re used to doing so if you’re making a change unless you go into that pit of discomfort you might not actually be making any sort of change at all

because it’s the change that’s the uncomfortableness because you’re basically setting whole new neural pathways you’re accessing new muscles and different timing sequences than you’ve ever used before but if you think about it logically that’s how you make a new technique happen and that’s how through repetition through that pit of discomfort then you come out with a habit so and that’s ideally what we all want is good habits in the pool or any sort of physical activity that we’re doing we want those things to be able to happen naturally through repetition and practice so yeah it’s something that I really embrace myself whenever I’m doing any sort of sport or training I always think that that uncomfortable feeling is worth persevering through oftentimes if you know that the concept of what you’re doing makes sense and if you know that the way that you’re doing it should make certain muscle groups feel tired or uncomfortable

then you sort of embrace those specific uncomfortableness feelings and you work with them and you sort of bring them aboard as part of your routine and generally the pit is just a pit you’ll generally come out the other end and feel way better because of it at some point but there’s often just that awkward period when you make a change that’s pretty much what the pit’s all about and I want to talk about the connectedness in the stroke one of the swimmers that we had was having trouble basically having trouble with keeping his arm out in front while he was getting the breath so his arm that was in front kept dropping down elbow was dropped and he just couldn’t keep it out there and really get the timing of the stroke to keep it front quadrant and he was just really struggling and he’s quite tight through the shoulders as well so mobility’s sort of there too but one of the things that you had this swimmer do to be able to keep that lead arm out in front

for balance and support and to get a better catch was you actually had him slow down the hand at the back of the stroke through the exit just to be able to keep pressure on the water and provide propulsion for him to be able to keep that lead arm there because one of the things you noticed was he was coming out a bit short which was causing that hand to drop and what are some of those other things in the stroke or first of all if you could talk sort of about that and how you noticed it but what are some of those other things that are connected in the stroke as well that you tend to look at if there’s certain faults or flaws in the stroke? So I’m a believer that there’s all sorts of magic rhythmic sort of patterns in swimming it’s quite mathematical in some weird way in an artistic way

everything’s related through and it’s oftentimes in long axis strokes freestyle and backstroke it’s related to the body roll and so your roll from side to side is the engine that powers your stroke but you can’t get a good roll unless your kicking timing is correct and the feet give you a little bit of pressure in order to push the hips and the shoulders and get that roll going so you need purchase on your feet in order to get the body rolling so the timing of the kick is incredibly linked whether it’s a two beat kick or a six beat kick to that just roll from side to side with the hips and shoulders

and then the stroke is in sync with that as well so there are little patterns things like that if you’re looking at the front end of a stroke also have a look at the back of the other arm stroke you know what’s the finish of a stroke doing while the other stroke’s catching because if you’re not pushing back enough with one hand then you’re not getting that good push and glide that’s reaching you into the next stroke with the other hand so there’s a real connection between the finish of one stroke and the catch of another it was something that I really worked on a lot with backstroke backstroke’s slightly different from freestyle it’s not a catch-up aspect to it at all it’s a very windmilly stroke but you really need a seamless transition of push from one hand into the catch of the other and that concept itself is very very similar in freestyle even though it’s slightly different timing of where you’re doing that

but those sort of things the timing of the breathing are working with the role of the shoulders and the rhythm of the catch all of those sort of things trying to get those timing patterns right and oftentimes it’s even more noticeable in strokes like butterfly and breaststroke if you get the timing out and those strokes

the stroke can be very very hard to do one of the things I’ve started to give a lot of our the online members who send their videos in for analysis is I’m turning to look a lot more at the feet and if the timing’s out and that connectedness with the kick and the rotation in the front end of the stroke if it’s not quite there I’ve just been getting them to do some a lot of them I’ll give them 650s with a kickboard and a snorkel and building one to three so easy, medium, fast 50 do that twice through and like it doesn’t need to be a lot if they’re not doing anything at the moment but just that pure, pure kicking as part of their warm up and doing that across four, five, six weeks I’ve seen a big difference just in the in the entire stroke once they have that more effective kick with that little bit of downwards and upwards pressure with the down and up beat and yeah and it’s exactly right it’s for the swimmers who

where there’s just no connectedness through the kick it’s very hard to get that front end working without it and I think when I first probably started coaching triathletes I had

probably a bit less of a focus on it because I was like well you don’t really need to you don’t need to be kicking hard for those longer distances but the thing I was missing there was well yeah you need an effective kick though which means that it’ll help you with the hip rotation and everything else so it is certainly important even though it’s not necessarily going to provide a lot of propulsion it will help help with everything else so it’s something that I’ve started to look a lot more at and

for swimmers who struggle with kicking there are a lot of swimmers who can’t go forwards when they’re kicking like their ankle inflexibility is really bad I just get them to start out with fins on and get started that way and then that will help to loosen up the ankles you’re probably best having some good fins like the DMC fins that we recommend because if you’re using maybe some of the Speedo fins which can be very stiff and very heavy then they can actually it’s not great for your ankle flexibility so some good fins just kick with those first and a kick board and a snorkel so you’ve got your head down and then you’ll eventually get to the point where you can just take them off and move forwards and it might be a very slow progression for people who are it might be in your 50s, 60s and so on and you’re very tight through the ankles but you can get there and it can make a world of difference once you do have you sort of seen that with

a lot of swimmers who are in their 50s and 60s who have maybe come from a running background?

And I think there is a general we’ll try not to generalise too much but there does seem to be a lack of wanting to kick as the adult especially the femur, the triathletes so it’s interesting you say that I get a lot of my squads that my adult fitness and triathlete ocean squats squads they feel that you see them turn their noses up to doing kick sets

and I can see on the surface that it’s maybe not relevant especially when you get a wetsuit on and flomber and stuff they keep going back to the back but it just makes you a better swimmer and it can cause stability if you kick climbing and thrower it helps the rotation the power you get through the strike and through the hips amazing world class world champion swimmers that have been 2B pickers you don’t have to have a 6B powerful sprint kick but it’s just the timing and the drive of those 2B kicks is usually very good with a good swimmer and so it is something that I think is very important I think being able to kick with slippers like you say good slippers being able to sub-picking I think is very important because just kicking on your front with a board generally puts you in a bad body position at arch as you back it lets you bend your knees a bit too much it focuses on a down kick more than an up kick so I like to mix up the kicking

do some on your back especially on your side it’s very good because you’ve got even pressure both ways in the water so you can feel an up and a down kick and that drive coming from both directions of kick is really really important for that drive, that purchase that you want to be working with the hips and the height of the hips and the role of the hips so that sort of thing I think is very important just to mix it up and just look at it as an overall part of swimming it’s just a drill basically to try and help the rest of the stroke improve yeah and just to sort of finish up as we’re going through some of the sets at Halwick we’d typically have like one more of a sort of training session in the day and then one more skills and technique focus session in the sessions where we’re sort of working a bit harder it was more of a training session as you’re working with some of those guys and girls in the slower lane particularly like if you think of the DC special

which is the 40-50 set that we always finish up Halwick with where you’re basically the set is 1650s where you go every fourth one fast 1250s where every third one is fast eight where every second is fast and the last four are all fast what was your, what message did you have for the swimmers as they were going through that in order for them to be able to maintain their pace in those fast ones throughout the whole set and keep their stroke together because I mean I think ever like in both weeks and across all of the lanes like people really finished off well with that DC special set what were some of the messages that you were giving to those swimmers to be able to sustain their pace you know a lot of times I was actually trying to hold them back because I knew that I knew the sort of the length of that set what it was going to be for the level of the swimmers and so a lot of times it was a bit about hey let’s relax more now

you know just stretch it out work on your stroke on these easy ones and so on just so that we could get the different paces of gears but I think a lot of the swimmers you know it’s basically giving them times on every one that they were coming in and I don’t think a lot of those swimmers had had that degree of sort of sort of coming in and someone telling them exactly how the work that they’ve done equated to an improvement in time and so that sometimes was just a really nice thing to have is that knowledge of you know what your time pacing is

so yeah that was a great field I really enjoyed working with the swimmers on that one it’s quite, I know just from my own experience it’s quite motivating once you’ve if you’ve got someone there giving you your times and you don’t need to look at your watch you don’t need to look at the stop clock like you’re getting your times there and all you need to focus in on is your output and your effort and especially for I mean probably I’d say half the swimmers at each of the camps there probably don’t get that on a regular basis just in the squads so they’re not exactly sure what the effort required is for the times and yeah in terms of holding back at the start of a let’s say a 2K main set like that you’ve really got to hold back because it’s pretty easy to burn all of your matches at the start in the first sort of 10 to 15, 50s if you are going completely all out in those fast ones so a lot of it is about knowing how to pace it

and how to just take it easy at the start because I mean it doesn’t usually take a lot of extra effort to increase the speed it means you just hold that good technique add in a little bit more effort but you can see a pretty good result a couple seconds per 50 faster by doing that but you can easily go from say like your easy ones might be a 5 out of 10 and your fast ones might be an 8 out of 10 but it’s pretty easy to go to like a 10 out of 10 and maybe only go half a second fast for that 50 but you’ve burnt your matches early on whereas all you want to do is just sit at that 8 out of 10 instead and I think that’s what can be a real skill to learn to do but the more types of the more often you do those types of sets the better you get at it and that really transfers into your ability to hold a good pace in the races that you’re doing yeah that times that 8 out of 10 in effort would be the 10 out of 10 in time

without them realising it you’d get the fastest time on the ones that were just being worked on efficiently and like you say at about an 8th level and you wouldn’t often see someone as they tried harder than perhaps create more drag by thrashing or so on

yeah and that’s one of the things that can be good about well can be good about camps is like the environment is everyone’s generally pretty relaxed maybe at the start like everyone’s sort of figuring it out first day so they’re not as relaxed but as they go through it like people in a good headspace we do those breathing exercises they’re in paradise, the weather’s good sunny, everyone’s just in that headspace where they’re not trying to force things and that’s what I notice like I guess at a camp compared to maybe like a squad is that people are just in that sort of environment people can change a lot easier and a lot quicker when they come from that place of calmness, of relaxation and not trying to over do things

yeah and then as the week went on it was just such a beautiful environment with all the trees around and all the water but you know like we were talking about earlier I think and from my point of view having that sharing ability with all four of us coaches

it’s quite novel because you know coming from a high performance background the coaches might talk to each other about concepts but the you know the high performance swimmers or the coaches were often very possessive about their swimmers and they didn’t want other coaches working with them so you know it was all about the relationship between that coach and that swimmer and you see that a lot in high performance swimming so it is so refreshing to have those different opinions being all dished out you know four different coaches giving concepts but you know again they’re not generally not different concepts they’re all pretty much on the same wavelength

that we were working with because we’re talking so much out of the pool about our coaching concepts with each other that we’re all sort of learning from each other at the same time so it is just a really novel thing I think especially from my background as a coach yeah yeah and it’s good to be a part of that like for me I really thoroughly enjoyed the camps in Thailand because it’s a good group of coaches everyone’s all the swimmers are just there because they want to improve but they’re also there to have a holiday to be able to relax and just enjoy being over there and next year so I mean so we’re coaching at Nusa, Hawaii and Thailand so if you’re listening and you want to work with myself and Gary all of those camps are on our website so you can check out the details there but basically got Nusa in March and May, Hawaii in July and then the Thailand camps in October so yeah really looking forward to those and having your back on

having you having your back there on deck it’s going to be a lot of fun and as you said it’s probably a slightly different environment to what you’re used to like it’s you know we train hard and we put a lot into it but I just I really love the relaxed environment that we that we can have at each of these places and the fact that we get to go to such beautiful destinations it’s I mean I just I really love and that’s why about it I’ve got seven camps going next year where it was through what was it three this year I just thought yeah this is what I really enjoy so I want to just do do more of them which which are the camps you’re looking forward to the most oh gosh you know honestly I really like you I enjoy them all I haven’t done Nusa yet so I’m not sure what that’s like I am looking forward to that because I’ve never been to Nusa which is a strange thing

and I think you know it’s almost transplanting isn’t it Hawaii was quite similar to me to Thailand in content of what we were delivering maybe you know there was a bit more work in Helwick than in Hawaii but in general it was really the focus on technique and working with the swimmers and and trying to find the the the challenges involved with helping people to improve their strokes so you know so I look forward to that no matter where that is and so yeah I don’t know if I have a favorite yet yeah I’m looking forward to all that thanks for joining me on the podcast and we will catch up in in March and yeah really looking forward to that that first camp in Nusa

yeah thanks very much for having me on the podcast again I’ll look forward to it in the future thanks for listening to the effortless swimming podcast if you’d like us to help you become a faster more efficient swimmer go to www.effortlesswimming.com

The post What To Do If You Can’t Get Under 1:45/100m with Gary Hurring appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

Our guest for todays episode is Sam Penny who is the first person who attempted to swim the English in winter. In this episode, we talked about Sam’s training, strategy and his journey in crossing the English Channel.

00:52 The Swim
08:40 We Had No Idea What Was Going To Come
10:07 Shutting Your Mind Down
11:19 Hypothermia Setting In
17:21 Swim Strategy
20:24 Prepare Yourself For The Worst
22:01 Looking On The Bright Side Of Things
23:44 Looking At It As A New Adventure
25:41 Future Swims
33:17 It’s Not About The Destination, It’s The Journey
37:37 I Didn’t Come This Far To Come This Far

Sam Penny:
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I had to swim about four or five meters away from it because the boat was rocking and it was splashing waves to me. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. My guest today is Sam Penny and Sam, you just recently attempted the first crossing of the English Channel in the European winter. So I saw some of the details of your swim and it’s something that just scares the living daylights out of me. I wouldn’t want to go anywhere near it. So I’ll let you explain the details of the swim, but basically something that would be ridiculous if you achieve that. Just so crazy. So first of all, welcome to the podcast and look forward to hearing more about the swim. Yeah. I’ll tell you what, one hell of an experience. So many things that went into this swim.

Basically, I just, I wanted to see if it was possible to swim the English Channel in there during their winter. Nobody had ever attempted it and thought I’d give it a crack. And the reason I gave it a crack was because I’d analyzed the daily water temperatures for about the last 10, 11 years. And at the start of December, it should be around 12 and a half degrees, you know, people swimming north channel or swimming in about 13 degrees. I swam an ice mile back in July in the snowy mountains here in Australia. And so I’ve done a lot of cold water acclimatization this year. And also last year as well, I swam the English Channel August 2018. So I’ve got that under my belt. A new coach this year to really build up my fitness, my speed. So everything was basically coming together to suggest that this was going to be a possible and a real doable swim. And so it was, I think it was the 4th of December that we finally had a break in the weather.

So let me set the scene, flew into London on about the 1st of December on Sunday in the middle of a UK typical cold snap. It was bloody freezing. Every day it was hitting a high of only about one degree, two degrees. And I saw an opening and my team with our support boat, we saw an opening coming up on the 3rd and 4th of December. So I had basically two days to get over my jet lag. When I say that we saw an opening, the only opening was a lull in the wind because it doesn’t matter really what the air temperatures are, we were looking for some calm conditions. And December in the UK is notoriously just really windy. But on the 3rd and the 4th, the wind died right down to about 10, 15 kilometers an hour. And we thought we’ll leave it for the Tuesday, which was the 3rd of December and we’ll go on the 4th, the Wednesday. So wake up early, early at about 2am on the 4th of December. The air temperature was about 6 degrees, which was the warmest I’d had in the previous 4 days.

And a barmy 6 degrees at that. And we went down to the boat. Now the water temp when I arrived in London was 12.5 degrees in Sunday. By Wednesday it had dropped to 10 degrees. And so just a massive shift, a massive drop in that water temperature. Even though it’s only 2 degrees, doesn’t sound that much. When we’re talking temperatures from 12 to 10 degrees, 12.5 degrees, it’s massive. It’s massive. And it really can make things deteriorate quite fast if you’re not ready for it. But even though the water temps were 10.5 degrees, we just thought we really need to try this swim. We didn’t know what was going to happen at 12.5 because let’s face it, nobody had ever attempted to do this swim before. So regardless of whether it’s 10 degrees or 12.5, nobody knew. So we just thought, bugger it. We have to take this opportunity to swim at 10 degrees because the weather was going to close out again. The wind forecast over the next two days was about 100Ks an hour.

So we had to go there and then. We motored out of the harbour at Dover in the UK. And as soon as we got out of the harbour, all of a sudden the boats started rocking and it was actually really rough. It was just, it was ridiculous. And I just said to Tim, Daniel, my head support guy, Tim, is it going to be this rough out there? And I thought it just might have been just what it’s like at the mouth of the harbour. But then all of a sudden Tim just goes, gee, I wasn’t expecting it to be this rough. It’s not what you want to hear. And just, oh my god. But then it’s one of those things. I’ve always said that you can only control certain things. And you take full control over what you can control. And I can control my fitness, my cold water acclimatisation and my nutrition. But I can’t control the environment. I can’t control how rough the waters were. So we got to Shakespeare Beach, which is only about 10 minutes motor from Dover.

And I’d had to spend pretty much all of that 10 minutes stripped down to my speedos so that I can get ready for the swim. I had to get one of the guys to put on all my channel grease under my arms and around my neck. But also we had to put on channel grease on vital organs like where my kidneys are, a lot on the back of my neck, just to protect myself from the really cold air. And so here I am standing for the 10 minutes in at, you know, this is at this stage. It’s four AM. It’s dark. We’re motoring. It’s windy. It’s bloody cold. And I’m in my speedos and my swimming cap and my goggles. They’re all in ski jackets and ski pants.

Yeah. And we finally got to Shakespeare Beach and, yeah, it was those, you know, Adios boys and jumped overboard.

Now, the water at 10 degrees, I think because I had so much adrenaline just pumping through me. I jumped in and it felt fine. I’d spent the previous two days at Diver Harbour swimming in the water, really acclimatizing as best I could.

And it was perfect. Sort of a hop in was, you know, the first thing that went into my mind was, oh, this is actually quite pleasant. Swam, swam to the shore. So the boat parks about 100, 150 metres off the beach. You have to swim ashore, clear the water. And then when the siren sounds on the boat, that basically signals the start of your swim. So I stood there looking out into the dark, stand as wet. There’s a breeze going. I’m only in my speedos and I’m looking out. It’s winter. And at that moment, I just recognised that not one single person on this planet had ever stood where I was at that particular moment. And it was the most amazing feeling. And then the siren went on the boat. And as soon as that siren went, I let out this massive woohoo

and straight into the water and started swimming and with the most surreal feeling of no person has gone before me to do this.

We had no idea what was going to come.

We didn’t know how this how this swim was going to pan out. But it was such at that moment, such a beautiful experience.

Yes, so from there, I swam out to the boat and then the boat starts to motor and I swim next to the boat. Usually last year when I swam the channel, I swam very close to the boat. But this year, because it was so rough, I had to swim about four or five metres away from it because the boat was rocking and it was splashing waves to me. So I’m trying to swim out through a chop and swell. Meanwhile, the boat’s pushing waves onto me. It’s dark. The side of the boat is dark. So I can’t actually see the boat. And on the boat, there’s a big spotlight that shines down on me. So I am basically blinded. And this all made it very difficult because I can’t see the waves coming and in choppy water, I’m really good. I never swallow water, but when you actually can’t see the waves that are about to wash over your face, it’s a completely different story. Yes. So now I feed every 30 minutes. And so basically going from feed to feed to feed.

I’ve spent all of this year basically on my long swings, my sort of four and six hour swings, training myself to completely shut my mind down. And it’s almost, I guess, you know, a lot of people refer it to, you know, the ultimate meditation. And I don’t do meditation probably because I do all my opens open water swimming. But I was shutting my mind off so that I could get feed to feed. I didn’t feel the cold at all. But the time between each feed, it only felt like about five, ten minutes. It was absolutely fantastic. So we’re going feed to feed. I was in such a great mental place. I didn’t feel cold. You know, the only real coldness I felt was perhaps sort of my face, you know, my face feeling a little bit numb.

And but apart from that, it was great. It was great. Now, the air temp still at six degrees and at 10 degrees was slowly, slowly starting to seep in. Got to the three hour feed still feeling great, but about 10 minutes after that, all of a sudden, I just started to basically implode. I fell into this massive hole. And this is where the hypothermia really started to set in very fast. And in the space of 10 minutes, I went from feeling absolutely amazing to every single muscle in my arms, easy enough. And I was swimming with claws. I just could not I couldn’t do anything. And I was starting to from the rough water, starting to get these sort of baby vomits happening. The sun, the sun had just started to to peak up over the horizon. And it was and I was starting to feel quite disorientated, orientated. The sun rose from where I wasn’t expecting it to. So I’d spent the previous half an hour of twilight trying to work out

what this orange glow was on the horizon. And I just couldn’t I just couldn’t work work this out. And then that last 10 minutes, I realized, you know, that things were starting to go turns sour. I was starting to get very heavy in the water. I I also felt like I was

beginning to drown and and I stopped. And I just said to Tim on the boat, Tim, I feel shit. And I wanted to make this call whilst I was still lucid, whilst I still was in the mental position to make the call. And he goes, do you want to cut it? Yeah, we’re cutting it. So we called we called the swim there. And then, you know, I could have soldiered on for more. But at that stage, I had a good eight hours or so left of swimming. You know, could have gotten to four, you know, maybe five. But by doing that, I would have put myself at much greater risk. The risk of swimming with hypothermia, you know, can be, you know, can be fatal.

And for the guys, you know, for the guys on the boat, it was more important to make the call there and then. And we did I swam around to the duckboard at the back of the boat. And started to climb up the ladder. But because my hands had all seized up, my arms had seized up. I actually couldn’t hold on to the ladder. I got halfway up the ladder and fell back into the sea. And it freaked everybody out on the boat because they just had visions that they were going to have to actually dive in and save me. And not one of them wanted to touch the water because it was bloody cold. And so I swam back to the boat and got a couple of rungs up the ladder. And one of the other guys, Matt, this massive burly bloke, just grabbed me by the back of my speedos and went up onto the back onto the boat, gave me the world’s biggest wedgie.

And I hopped on the boat. My, you know, like I said, my arms were all seized up. My hands couldn’t work. And so I couldn’t pick my wedgie out. They got me into my tracksuit pants, a massive deck jacket and, you know, started, you know, just trying to warm me up. And I had to live with this wedgie for about the next 40 minutes until we get back, got back to to Dover Harbour. Just make that the cover of your DVD if they make a video of it. If anyone got a photo. Thankfully, no one took a photo because they were a bit more concerned than taking happy snaps. Oh, it was. But I tell you what, it was it was a great experience. And I’ve been able to spend a lot of time reflecting on this swim. And, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of people sort of, you know, say you’re crazy and you’re mad. But, you know, a lot of work went into this swim.

And I certainly put in put in the effort to make this a possible swim at 12 and a half degrees. I definitely believe that I could have come extremely close to making it. But I think just, you know, being down at 10 was obviously just too much.

But I see this swim as a really achievable swim. And I think that person who cracks a winter channel crossing, you know, hats off to them, it’s going to be an absolutely remarkable feat. And whether that’s me, I don’t know.

But yeah, I’m certainly keen to

to continue my cold training, continue my open water training. But also, you know, share my experience with it because I really, I really want to see someone give this a crack. This, I believe, is really a new frontier, particularly with the English channel. Yeah, cracking this in winter is it’s going to be a remarkable feat. Yeah, well, I think by I mean, a lot of people will listen to this podcast and see this video and and I’ll probably put it into the minds of quite a few people. And it’s good that you’re not obviously not possessive of this is I need to get this first. I need to be the one that cracks it. And obviously, you know, you want that to happen. But for someone to to do the swim, and I think it will, you know, maybe whatever it takes five, ten years, certainly someone will will get there because it seems like open water swimming is really just exploded over the last couple of years and and people are attempting bigger, crazier swims.

Obviously, Sarah’s four way crossing and a number of other swims out there that people are starting to do. And it’s I love it. I love that open water swimming is really taken off like it has. And and so many more people are doing it. And there’s a couple of things that you mentioned about your experience there that I want to go into. The first one is shutting your mind off. What what do you do? What do you focus on or what don’t you focus on in order to do that? What’s your strategy?

Well, my my my strategy when I go out swimming is that I count. So I count to ten. So I basically count my breath, you know, one, two, three and count that. At the same time, you know, when you wake up and you’ve got that crappy song in your in your head, I usually and I’m horrible with lyrics. So I know half a line of a really crappy song. And so I’m counting to ten and also have that going in my mind. But by just simply doing that doesn’t allow my mind to think about anything else. So it doesn’t let you think about how uncomfortable you are, how sore you are, how cold it is, how bored you are or anything like that. It really focuses your mind. Now, last when I did that winter channel attempt,

because the water was so rough, I was wasn’t able to get into a rhythm. And because of that, I wasn’t able to get into my routine of counting to ten. But because I have done it so much in practice, so much of closing my mind off, I was then able to, I guess, adapt my mind to the situation and just completely shut it down.

That’s I found that when I was training for the Rot Ness channel. My long swims are typically done with a friend of mine and we’d go down to Half Moon Bay here in Melbourne and just do our long swims, whatever it might be, like we started with six Ks and eventually built up to I think it was about 18 Ks on the last one. And especially on those those really nice mornings, and it’s obviously easier to shut your mind down when it’s nice conditions and the sun’s out and everything, but especially on those nice mornings where we’d be swimming next to each other and it’s you just get into this rhythm where we’re basically going next to each other, stroke for stroke. And I’d be singing different songs in my head or just counting the breasts or counting the strokes. And it’s just like you come out of that a couple of hours of swimming and your mind is just like everything’s at peace. And you can just see things so clearly.

It’s such a great feeling and you can get that so many ways. But I think open water swimming, because it’s that slight sensory deprivation being in the water, you can really feel that a lot more than than in some other other sports. And it’s I love it. And that’s why I haven’t done many long swims lately. But I’m looking forward to getting back into that that sort of mode because it’s so good, just like mentally, it’s great. But obviously the physical that the feeling you get as well, just it releases all those chemicals that feel so good afterwards. That, you know, I I can see why you’re such a happy person all the time. It seems like doing all that all that long swimming. Yeah, it’s it’s absolutely fantastic. And being able to get into the ocean allows you to do it. It’s a lot. It’s a lot more difficult in a pool to do it because you know, you count in laps, you’ve got your tumble turns, which really sort of interrupt your rhythm.

But, you know, with with open water, getting into an ocean or a lake or, you know, rivers, you do get that longer stretch where you can, you know, to really get into the zone as people refer it. And, you know, I’m lucky I’m here on the Sunshine Coast. And, you know, regardless of what the, you know, how rough the water is, I go out, you know, because, you know, with open water swimming, you know, if it’s say, you know, for example, Rotnest or even the English Channel, you always have to prepare for the worst, prepare yourself for the worst and, you know, hope for the best. And so I go out regardless of what it is. So if I’ve if it’s Saturday and I’ve got to go out and do for a week, I go out and do for our swim Saturday, I go out, regardless of how rough it’s going to be. It’s just, you know, what you have to do. But the more you do it, the easier it gets and the more you enjoy it. And, you know, even even the rough weather swimming,

you start to enjoy that sort of stuff. It’s more of a challenge and you feel certainly invigorated. But you feel like you’ve accomplished a lot more than if it was just a really flat lake swim. Oh, definitely. We the last open water swim that Lysandra and I did before the channel was it was like, I don’t know, 40, 50 kilometer an hour winds. And it was choppy. It was just it was cold as well. And we didn’t do what we did intended in terms of the the time because I just I struggle in the cold. But we still we went out there like, well, we’re here. We’re going to do it. We’re fine. We’ll be safe out there. Let’s just get in there and do it. And, you know, you come out of that. And it’s it’s one of those things that sucks at the time. But, boy, afterwards, you go, that was actually pretty, pretty good. And, you know, it’s it’s it’s something that is certainly

good. It’s good to have those challenges because it makes everything else in life seem a little bit easier as well. And it’s good to it’s good to suffer in those ways. You know, it’s there’s a guy there’s a guy who makes documentaries mostly on running and kind of kayaking. He’s a guy called Bo Miles. And I came across some of his videos a couple of weeks ago. And he’s he’s got this attitude for pretty similar to you, actually, this attitude where he’s he just revels in the in the in the struggle. And he’s he’s running these marathons and all this sort of stuff. And he loves going out, exploring and just being out in nature. And he’s just like, you know, he’s run 30 K’s. He’s got chaff on his legs and his back and from having a backpack on. And he’s just like, oh, yeah, it’s just part of it. And yeah, it sucks. But how good is this? We get to be outdoors. I get to go exploring and he’s really looking on the bright side of things.

And it seems like that’s something that you’re able to to do well as look on the at the positives, even in a in a situation which could have a lot of negatives. What’s your is that something you’ve always had in terms of your personality and the way you go about things? Oh, yeah, definitely. Look, you know, getting out open water swimming, every swim is different. You’ve got different sea life. The conditions are different. Everyone, it’s it’s basically, you know, for me, I look at it as a new adventure. You know, I’ve done a lot of cool stuff in my life. And I always look for.

I guess new things to do and new adventures, you know, just to make it it exciting. And the more you do it, the more you enjoy being uncomfortable. You know, I recently grew up at Noosa and we went out swimming there. And it was seriously the most beautiful day. It was crystal clear. We saw turtles got too close to some to some rocks. The sea snakes, the stingrays, you know, a thousand fish. And then so the next weekend I was at Maloola Bar and it was all cloudy and murky, but, you know, only 40 kilometers apart, but just two completely different swims and rather than, you know, when you’re in the pool, it’s the same pool and it’s the same conditions and it’s the same temperature. But when you’re out in in the ocean, every single swim is different. It’s a new adventure. And just I think it’s why I have just been enjoying it so much. I’ve only been ocean swimming really for about the last three, four years.

But, man, I’m absolutely loving it. And the more I swim, the more adventures I have. I was just looking back at some of the one of your messages from

when was I think it was March or something when you first got in touch. And there’s a couple of other swims that you’ve got that you’ve got planned, which are quite adventurous swims as well. Do you want to talk a bit about those other ones that you’ve got planned over the next year or two? Well, actually, they were OK. So the this English this winter channel swim was a very secretive swim because it was it was a record attempt. You know, the record for the latest swim in the year was third of November. And, you know, there I was on the fourth of December trying to smash that record.

There were there were a couple, two or three people around the world that I knew that if they caught wind of it, they would be able to have a crack and be that first person to attempt a winter swim. So I was originally training for a double channel crossing in July next year. And so because of that, you know, my fitness was right up. But when I saw the opportunity only about three months ago for this winter channel swim, that’s where I changed my attempt at doing a double to winter channel swim. So, yeah, so it was basically three months of secrecy. My my training team support team were also on to secrecy. Everybody was still talking about, you know, everybody’s asking, how’s your training coming along for your double? Yeah, it’s good. It’s good. Yeah, so it was all a bit of a sort of smoke and mirrors, so to speak, to keep the keep this winter channel swim a secret until until the news broke. Yeah, understandable.

And you were talking about is it still something you want to do to do a marathon 42 K’s swimming? Is that still an arc and that would be a great one. See, I, you know, living here on the Sunshine Coast, a beautiful piece of coast is from from Maloula Bar to Nusa. And it turns out that it’s actually 42 kilometers by swimming. Nobody’s ever swam that one. All the marathon swims pretty much are across channels where the entire time you don’t see anything apart from open water. Whereas this one, I just thought how great it would be to swim this 42 K’s and actually being able to look at something, being able to look at the coast the entire time. And because it’s such a beautiful coastline, it’s really quite untouched. You know, you’ve seen all the sand dunes and things such as, you know, icons like Mount Coulomb and also Nusa National Park. Yeah, so that’s definitely going to do that one. That I reckon that’s just going to be a beautiful one.

Also, there’s another one that I’m eyeing off, which is around Great Keppel, swim up there. And I think we’re looking at that. I think it’s August, July or August. I can’t recall. What’s the distance on that one? That’s about 20 K’s. Yeah. Yeah. But I just, you know, what a what a beautiful place to swim that would be. So there’s so many, you know, I’m starting to use open water swimming as a new way to to seek adventure and to see to see things that nobody’s seen before. And, you know, there’s a lot of people who are starting to join me in in these swims just because, you know, they want to see what I’m seeing. And, you know, to see all this wildlife and, you know, sort of all the turtles and the, you know, the stingrays and dolphins and, you know, so Wobby Gong sharks and those kinds of things. They’re just it’s absolutely remarkable to be in their environment and at the same time, just doing something that, you know, 99.9% of the population

hasn’t ever done before. There’s really something to, I like looking at a map and going, oh, cool. Like I ran from here to here or I swam from here to here and just kind of seeing that, that that’s possible. And especially like, cause I don’t have you done the the RIP swim in here in Melbourne where you go across the heads there that grant seedly organizers. So I did that two years ago, I think it was. And that was, that was a really cool experience and felt like a real adventure out there. Cause you got these big ships going past and the Spirit of Tanzania going, you know, 100 meters in front and all these big, you know, ships and it’s really, really deep there. So just couldn’t see the bottom at all. And it just really felt like you’re out in the middle of nowhere. And, you know, after that, like the adrenaline for me was just pumping. And I just felt like I was just really, it took me about an hour to really calm down

from that swim cause I think just, you know, the adrenaline and the whole, the whole experience had really just, you know, it had really just sort of stirred something in me where I thought, shit, that was really exciting. And then so if you’re looking at the map from Nusa to Malula Bar and, you know, such an awesome piece of coast and we’ve got two camps up in Nusa next year in 2020 where it’s just, it’s so, it’s so nice there. And, you know, if you look at that bit of coast and you look at that on the map and go, I actually swam from all the way around. That’s a pretty cool thing. And, you know, the good thing about this stuff is you can be creative with it too. There’s no, there’s no rules around what, you know, constitutes an exciting swim. Like obviously the English channel, you got the rules and all of that stuff to make the swim count. But that’s a good thing about open water swimming. There’s so many possibilities that it’s really up to you

and what you want to do and what you want to achieve. And, you know, you can make it up all on your own which is what you’re doing by the sounds of it. Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. You know, what was it, July, doing an ice mile up in the snowy mountains at Lake Krakenbach. And, you know, that was ridiculous. So it was 3.9 degrees water and it was snowing when I swam. But, you know, once again, you put the work in, things are achievable. I only started ocean swimming, you know, not long ago. And I reckon probably about three, four years ago someone said I had to go and do a 1K ocean race. I’ll probably say that it was about 950 meters too far.

But I really had this dream of swimming the English channel all my life. You know, I’ve grown up with, you know, seeing, you know, English channel swimmers like, you know, Cece Moroney and Hurt of Des Renford and, you know, all these guys that just seemed so mystical. And I watched, I reckon, every YouTube clip of people swimming the English channel. I just thought, you know, I want to do that. And I found a coach and I started getting in the ocean and in the space of what, two years, three years, there I was swimming the English channel. You know, swimming the English channel is the Everest of open water swimming. And it’s possible, but even, you know, getting out and doing, say, 5K swims or, you know, 10Ks, those kinds of things, you know, you go at your pace and you go at your level of fitness and expertise. And you just, the idea is to get out there and enjoy it. You know, if you’re racing, it’s hard. But if you’re not out there racing

and the aim is just to finish that swim, then it can be such a beautiful experience and, you know, really enjoyable. But, you know, you can work up to these big swims, you know, in the space of a year or so. That’s what I like about your, I guess you were reflecting back on your, on the swim a couple of weeks or last week was that it’s, you’re happy to, you’re really enjoying the journey by the looks of it. It’s not, it’s not about the destination. And that’s, and really that’s, that’s where the enjoyment comes from. Because if you, if you don’t make the crossing, it’s like, well, the last, you know, however many months have been a failure. It’s like, well, no, not at all. It’s like the end result, it’d be great to get there. But in reality, it’s like, it’s those open water swims. It’s that mental toughness that you’ve built up. It’s the things you’ve seen out in the ocean. That’s what really, you know, can stick with you

and can make, is what makes life enjoyable. It’s not about hitting those goals along the way, even though they are nice to do. It’s a smaller part of the entire thing. Yeah, absolutely. The journey is probably 99% of the enjoyment of it. Getting out and doing the event, whether it’s English Channel or Ice Mile or something like that, it’s almost like the victory lap. You know, it’s just the end part, more of a formality of starting that moment. But the, you know, the whole journey, whether it’s a year or two years, however long it is, that’s the most rewarding part, knowing that you’re standing on the shores of England, about to start on that swim and knowing how much work you put into it, how, you know, all the effort, the, you know, the discipline and, you know, but also the sacrifices that you’ve had to make to get to that point. It’s personally such a brilliant experience to have.

You know, when I first signed up to do the English Channel, I, first person I contacted was Trent Grimsey, who, you know, coaches people to make English Channel crossings. And he gave me my program and I looked at this thing. It was, you know, really quite daunting, but I just said, well, you know, if this really is my dream, then I have to do the training. And for me, that was going to be the real test. Can I dedicate myself to getting out of bed, you know, five mornings a week, doing what Trent Grimsey tells me to do.

And if I can do that, yes, I’ll, you know, I know that the man will deliver me to the shores of England. And sure enough, you know, with the right coach, I did exactly what he told me to do and it works. You know, it was just, and I am so proud of myself for being disciplined and dedicated to following the program. And, you know, let’s face it, it’s why you have a coach, you know, to, for someone to tell you what to do.

But, you know, when you’re paying a coach money, you know, what’s the point if you don’t, if you don’t do what they say? Yeah, that’s exactly right. No, it doesn’t take much accountability to have you actually follow through on things. Like a friend of mine has just started on program, she’s doing triathlon, started on program with a coach. And the first session was a swim session that she had to do and wasn’t feeling good at all that day. It was feeling kind of sick, wanted to get out, but the thought in her mind was, like she got halfway through the session and would have otherwise gotten out. But the thought in her mind was, oh, I don’t want to be this to be the first session that I have with the coach and to tell him that I actually had to get out of the pool, that I got out of the pool because I wasn’t feeling well. So it’s just, yeah, it doesn’t take a lot to really just help you sort of follow through with those things.

And that can either be just entering an event. Like once I’d entered Rotnest, I started the training and I didn’t sort of, you know, I wasn’t going to cut myself short that way. And it’s just in the back of your mind, it’s like, oh, I’ve got that coming up, I need to do it. So as soon as there’s some sort of accountability there or some sort of like a deadline or you’ve booked in, like that’s what can really make you follow through with things. And yeah, and you know the difference between having something there that’s coming up compared to not having something set in stone. It’s like, well, I could go to the pool or I could just keep watching the end of this TV series. It doesn’t take a whole lot. Yeah, well, that’s exactly right. And I use my sort of goals as my massive motivator. I swim at Kwanapool under a coach called Michael Sage who’s the Australian Open Water Coach. And so you can imagine that the sets we do are

pretty massive, but the kids that I swim with, the 15 to 20 year olds, they all race at nationals. There’s probably five, six of them on the Australian Dolphins team. And I’m the slow old bloke at the end of the lane. But every single session I reckon that I have, that I’ve had there, four days a week, I just want to stop and make some excuse to hop out of the pool. But when those thoughts start to go through my head, I start to visualize why I’m there.

It’s to swim the channel. And I also say, I’ve got this phrase that goes around my head almost every day. I didn’t come this far, I only come this far. I haven’t done the last three months of training just to quit now. And if you quit now, you’re gonna make an excuse for next time, you’re gonna keep quitting. And so I’ve never quit a session.

I’ve never tried to take a shortcut. And yeah, you just need to stop yourself from quitting. And the more you get in the pool or out in the ocean or if it’s running, the more you get out running,

the more you teach yourself not to quit. The amount of times that I want to quit doesn’t reduce, but it’s easier to talk myself into continuing on and putting the effort in. And to the point of, I can suppress that side of me, which is wanting to stop as opposed to the part that wants to really soldier on and achieve better. Yeah, and it sort of builds up. You get that momentum going with your training and how you’re feeling. And it’s easy to get out of bed. And you’re just in the habit of having those successful habits, I guess, or traits, they just continue to build up. And that only makes it easier. It’s like, if you haven’t been training for a few weeks, it’s very hard to get up those five o’clock starts at the start, but as soon as that’s like three, four weeks in, much easier to do. So it helps once you’ve got that ball rolling. Well, Sam, thanks so much for being on the podcast. And for anyone who wants to learn more about what you’re doing

or keep in touch, where’s the best place for them to go? Oh, either my website, sampenney.com or my Facebook page, which is Sam Penney middle-aged bloke Bixen Swingood.

Good, I’m sure there’s only one page called that. So that’d be easy to find. And we’ll provide a link on our website as well in the show notes here. So Sam, thanks again and all the best with your swimming. And I’m sure I’ll see you somewhere up on the sunny coast in the next couple of months. Yeah, fantastic. Thanks, Brenton. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.

The post Attempting The English Channel In WINTER with Sam Penny appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

Our guest today is Baden Schaff, who is a PGA pro in golf, and he is also the co-creator of Skillest. Now you might’ve heard me talk about Skillest, this is the app that we use at our clinics and at our camps, to help analyze swimmers strokes and also just to really show them what they’re doing under the water. And for me, this is an app that is completely changed the way that we coach, and I’ve got Baden to thank for that. And we’re going to talk a little bit about Skillest, but also talk about what are some lessons that Baden has learned from coaching people in golf, and how we can apply that to swimming, and how you can improve your own swimming through some of those lessons.

05:07 Origin Of Skillest
06:50 Using Skillest For Coaching
11:36 How Effortless Swimming Is Using Skillest
14:03 Breaking Things Down To A Simplistic Level
15:20 Providing Structure And Time frame
16:41 It Takes Discipline
17:37 Don’t Get Distracted
18:46 Trying A different Thing Everyday
19:37 Long Term Thinking
20:19 Coaching Time frame
24:06 Coaching Online

Baden Schaff:
Email: [email protected]
Instagram
@badenschaff
Skillest

Effortless Swimming:
Online Membership
Freestyle Clinics Around Australia

Transcription:

Brenton Ford: Welcome to episode number 142 of the Effortless Swimming podcast. My guest today is Baden Schaff, who is a PGA pro in golf, and he is also the co-creator of Skillest. Now you might’ve heard me talk about Skillest, this is the app that we use at our clinics and at our camps, to help analyze swimmers strokes and also just to really show them what they’re doing under the water. And for me, this is an app that is completely changed the way that we coach, and I’ve got Baden to thank for that. And we’re going to talk a little bit about Skillest, but also talk about what are some lessons that Baden has learned from coaching people in golf, and how we can apply that to swimming, and how you can improve your own swimming through some of those lessons. So Baden, welcome to the podcast.

Baden Schaff: Hi Brenton, thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.

Brenton Ford: We’ve known each other for quite a few years now. I was trying to think back when it was, but I mean I’m thinking maybe five years, you reckon?

Baden Schaff: Yeah, I think potentially even longer. Yeah, potentially longer. But yeah, you’ve always sort of been in the periphery of my thinking, because I do love my swimming and I went and got coaching from you. I reckon it must’ve made seven years ago now.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. I’ll have to search through the emails because the funny thing is, we sort of met each other through swimming and then a couple of years ago, you and your business partner Allen developed the Skillest app, which was primarily set up for helping you teach the golfers that you’re coaching, and improve the way that you coach them. So how did that originate and what was the purpose behind it originally? Because I mean for me it is just been such a game change, I can’t emphasize enough for coaching people at our clinics and camps now.

Baden Schaff: Yeah. And that’s just the coolest thing ever to hear. Obviously when we built it originally, we always have visions that it would be across multiple sports, so that was why I came to you originally to see if you thought it was something applicable to you. But I suppose the origination of the whole idea came from, I’ve been teaching the game golf for 15 years and it’s just during those 15 years that I just saw so many problems with the industry. So the way you use the app is very much in person, where you teach people that are standing in front of you or swimming in front of you, and it’s great for that, for being able to analyze their strokes and then send them home and they effectively then become part of your digital academy, where they can send their stroke when they’re swimming on their own and things like that.

Baden Schaff: But that component of it, that online coaching component, that is what we set out to really solve originally. So as a golf pro, I mean I hated the fact that I had to leave in a really densely populated area to be super busy. I just couldn’t understand why can’t live in the country and still be able to coach. So obviously I was very much restricted by geography, very much restricted by seasonality, so in summer you’re incredibly busy, in winter incredibly quiet. And then I also just noticed a lot of problems with the way students were actually trying to integrate what I wanted them to do. They effectively had to be standing in front of me to be getting better. So people would come for a golf lesson, they would then disappear, they’d come back five weeks later, and they’d sort of integrated or they tried to remember what you’d taught them and life got in the way, and they didn’t do their drills and they hadn’t done anything, and effectively you give them the exact same lesson, when they come back to see you.

Baden Schaff: So what we wanted to do and what we set out to do was effectively create these global marketplace for coaching, using video analysis. So you could learn from any coach anywhere in the world, that you either found on social or through our platform, and then we gave these awesome streamlined tools to be able to upload video footage whenever you wanted. So, because that was one thing in particular is that, when I was teaching someone, I knew that all I needed to do was tell them that they were working on things the right way. So, what I mean by that is that they could, after 24 hours of getting a golf lesson, they could then effectively send something back to me and just say, “Hey, is this what you wanted me to do?”

Baden Schaff: And I think that’s one of the reasons that people haven’t regret is golf, is because they do disappear for four or five weeks at a time, and they just don’t know if they’re working on things the right way. So, that was sort of the genesis of the idea, and now, we got hundreds of weekly active coaches, golf coaches on the app, and we were talking about it previously, we’ve got coaches making up whatever, $100,000 teaching through their phone to their students all around the world.

Brenton Ford: And this might… I mean I’ve sort of emphasized how much I love the app. I’ve got no interest in it apart from we use it and it’s basically saved me from employing someone two to three days a week to download, upload, rename videos from clinics and camps that we do, it saved me so much time and had made my job so much easier to do.

Brenton Ford: And what I really like about the app is, what we’ll often do at clinics is we film people, we do the analysis and then at the end of the clinic we’ll just upload it, hit submit, and then that person’s got it on their app. And so I know people that look at that pretty much every week, and they’re going, “This is what I was doing, and now this is what I need to change.” And it’s really clear what those things are that they need to change.

Brenton Ford: And then now the app is sort of more intended for people who are… You can get access to coaches around the world. We use it sort of slightly differently at the moment, but I love just the ease of use and being able to essentially just use video in a really easy way where you’re not mucking around with emailing files and all this sort of stuff, it makes that very easy.

Brenton Ford: And what we do now, as well as we do followup filmings clinics. So someone who’s come to a clinic, they can come back and get another filming done, and then I do the analysis during the week. And the really cool thing about what we can do now is, I can pull up the old video, look at the changes that they’ve made and go, “Right, this one’s looking good, this is good. All right, you might need to focus back in on your alignment, and now focus on these couple of things,” so yeah, just a really cool way to be able to do what we do.

Brenton Ford: And I mean, you’ve been coaching for a number of years now, and I want to sort of explore some of those things that you’ve… I mean sort of how you use the app to coach, but also some of those things that you’ve learnt as a coach, that’s helped you get better results with your students. So if we dive into a couple of those, what are some lessons that you’ve learned in the last five to 10 years that has changed the way that you approach your coaching?

Baden Schaff: Look, golf is just this crazy game. So as most of all, probably all of your listeners who tried to play the game know, it’s sublime to the ridiculous, you have moments of genius, and then other times you look completely uncoordinated. And this is the fundamental problem with the game, that people can, I always say that you can’t accidentally get into a swimming pool and swim 50 meters in 21 seconds, it just doesn’t happen. But you can actually stand on the hardest golf hole in the world and you can haul an iron shot from 200 meters away. And so what that does, it effectively gives you this false sense of security, it gives you this impression that you should be able to do that all the time.

Baden Schaff: So the hard thing with golf is that people are, they’re always looking at their absolute best and thinking, “Okay, I should be able to repeat that all the time, but it’s actually a lot further away than what they think. So yeah, the fundamental problem is just how it can seem so easy at times, but being able to do that on a repeatable basis, is the hardest thing in the world.

Baden Schaff: And the problem that we face at driving around, just for example where I teach, is that when we’re trying to fix someone’s golf swing, so as you discuss, we film their swing, we get them up on the video, and we analyze them, and then I get them in front of mirrors and I train their body to do the correct thing. We’ll do lots of drills, lots of dry work where we don’t even hit a golf ball. So we try and do lots of that stuff, but the problem is as soon as I turn around and hit that golf ball, they’re worried about the ball flight, so they’re always reacting to the ball flight.

Baden Schaff: And so my job is always to say, “Look, let’s not even worry about the ball flight, that is going to be a consequence of how we change your body to work.” But it’s really difficult, because you’ve got that extra fact that you’ve got, that feedback, every time you make a golf swing, you got the feedback of, ‘Was that a good one or a bad one, based on how well the ball’s fly.” So that’s incredibly difficult to deal with, where when you’re trying to get someone to do a completely different move with their body to what they’re used to, trying to feel very different and then not react to the ball flight is incredibly hard.

Baden Schaff: So what we do is obviously try and get people to drill things as much as possible. I’ll get people to stand at home in front of mirrors all day long. So I remember when I went and studied at an Academy up in Queensland in the early 2000s, this brilliant coach who is still my mentor said to us, “Okay, you need to go and get mirrors.” And myself and my best friend did, we literally went down to Suzanne’s and we went everywhere we could go, and we found every mirror possible so that in the apartment that we were living in, you could not turn around a corner without looking at yourself.

Baden Schaff: So you’d be there having a beer on the balcony, and we had mirrors out on the balcony, so that you could stay in there and train your body to do the correct thing without the influence of the ball there. And there’s absolutely no doubt that is what gets people to do the right thing, because you take that external influence of watching the ball flight all the time.

Baden Schaff: So that’s the thing that is really hard to do, and I’m probably carrying on here a little bit. But the other thing that is really hard to deal with is, that everyone plays the Saturday, right? So generally everyone who want coaching, has got to play this coming Saturday. So you can train them and push their body around, and they can feel like they’re almost having an outer body experience with the way that their body’s working relative to what it used to, and the problem is that they might have four days to try and train that in, and then when I stand on that first tee on Saturday in their Saturday call, they’ll be standing there with the three mates, that they play with every week, they know that they usually slice the ball over to the right, the bank’s over there on the left and everything just goes out the window.

Baden Schaff: They’re just like, “Okay, I’m just going to go back and do what I always do,” and sort of thing. So these are the really difficult things that we face all the time. And sometimes I will tell students that, “Maybe don’t play for a couple of weeks and we just train your body.” So yeah, so they’re the things that I’ve really learnt over the years and yeah, some of the big problems that we face.

Brenton Ford: That’s interesting. The comparison for me I guess is there is… Or the similarities there is that when we do these drills now, for learning the catch in the pool, that are really different and really simple compared to what we used to teach, because that I think is one of the harder aspects of the strike to learn. And so we basically, one of the main drills that we do is called YMC Drill, and that will just take people through the four key positions, in the catch in the pool that you see pretty much every elite swimmer move through, and they kick for five seconds, so I spend five seconds in those four key positions, so ends up being about 20 seconds for the full cycle.

Brenton Ford: But the good thing about that is they have the time to be able to look at what their arms are doing, make any adjustments if they need to, and that’s kind of the mirror for them. They actually get to see what they’re doing, and if they’re not in the right position, make the change and then continue on with it.

Brenton Ford: And what I’ve found by doing that drill is that then they’re not overthinking things, because with drills… There’s drills like doggy scoop and long dog paddle and all these other ones that I think is still great and they have a purpose, but with all of those drills, they’re moving all the time, and it’s quite a complex movement just going through the catch itself. So this is really good for just getting them to adjust their position and have that ability to see what they’re doing and then change it. And then what I like to get them to do, to be able to maintain that and their full stroke is, sometimes you can just put a snot or keep a snorkel on, put a pool boy in.

Brenton Ford: So you take the legs and the breathing out of it, and then you can just even continue to look at the arms at what they’re doing, and you just got to take that easy step first, then you might take the pool boy out, but keep the snorkel on and do a few laps of swimming, and then just sort of take the snorkel off as well, and just progressively build up to that full strike.

Brenton Ford: But yeah, just taking it step by step and making or giving them time or letting them know it’s going to take some time to be able to replicate that at full speed, and for longer distances. I think the comparison between going out and playing golf with your mates and then just falling back into old habits, that to me is either, swimming with friends at a squad or swimming with them at the pool, or being on the watch and uploading your data to Strava and not wanting to look like you’re going 10 seconds slower per 100, if you need to go through that regression to eventually get faster.

Baden Schaff: Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn’t agree with that more. And yeah, and sometimes I think when you are breaking things down to such a simplistic level, people can feel like they’re going back to the beginning, right? And they feel, “Oh my gosh, I’m literally a beginner again, I’m beyond this,” sort of thing. So that’s also a very scary for a lot of students is, when you’re trying to teach them the scales before they play, they can feel like, “My God, I’m starting all over again,” but as you and I both know, it’s not that at all. It’s just, yeah, it’s just getting things correct and it’s amazing.

Baden Schaff: I mean, I always say that when someone is getting a lesson from me and they feel like they’re being ripped apart, it might only be a relatively simple change, but as you know, the way something feels and the way it is, a completely different things.

Baden Schaff: But they can actually feel like when you’re changing it, in their brain, they start to say themselves, “Oh my God, I’m five years away from getting this.” So it feels like it’s five years away, but if they actually do the right work and put the time in, it can happen in months, if you know what I mean. So it can feel like it’s starting all over again, but if they just stick to their processes, that can actually happen a lot faster than what they’re imagining, that it’s going to be.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, and you certainly see that when you coach so many people is that you can see roughly the path, that if they continue on this path with the changes that you want them to make, you can see where they can end up three, four, five months down the track and that can be well ahead of where they currently are, but it just feels so awkward sometimes.

Baden Schaff: Always.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, and what I’ve started to do at times, depending on the person is, at the end of a clinic, we will have gone through our drill progression and sequence, and we’ll be doing the final analysis. And for some people if there’s more than say one or two things to work on, I’ll say, “All right, for the next two to three weeks, you might just focus on your head position and your posture, you might think about keeping your neck long and you might do front kick drill to help implement that change. And then after that, then you might look to work on your alignment, make it go a little bit wider, do that for two to three weeks, and then after that, yeah, go through those catch and pull drills to continue to develop that.”

Brenton Ford: So just giving them that little bit of structure and expected time to be able to make those changes a little bit more automatic. And that way I’ve found, in our case, well I can do that for the next sort of eight to 10 weeks, and it doesn’t feel like I’m a year or two away from getting to where I need to be.

Baden Schaff: Yeah, definitely. But, yeah it takes discipline though, doesn’t it?

Brenton Ford: Oh yeah.

Baden Schaff: That’s the thing, it’s just not for everyone. That is just something, that’s one thing I’ve definitely become very aware of. I’d hate to ever judge students, but you can know relatively quickly I think, that whether or not this is going to work with a certain student, because I mean it sort of gets back to what I said just before is, that students know that they want to play this Saturday.

Baden Schaff: And I mean I get this situation where sometimes people will walk in, just holding onto their driver. They won’t have bought any other golf club, they’ve only got their driver and they just want to fix their driver for Saturday’s sort of thing. And I’m like, “Oh my God, this is so not my student,” sort of thing. So it takes, it does take a special type of student who’s willing to go through a little pain, go through the process, have a lot of discipline for what is absolutely incredible benefits at the end of it.

Brenton Ford: Mm-hmm (affirmative). One of the challenges that I have is, and I mean I know you put out a lot of content as well, there’s just video content is, that there’s so many different things to think about. And I sort of do two videos a week, but then our team puts that into about five to 10 different videos, and they’re all talking about similar but different topics, and so it’s very easy to get distracted.

Brenton Ford: So if I ever coach someone throughout, online coaching or at a clinic, I let them know that, “All right, any videos you see of mine over the next three to four months, ignore them, because you’ve now got what you need to… You’ve now got those things that are going to help you swim faster, so don’t get distracted.” And yeah, if ever doing like one-on-one with someone and do a followup with them, and I’ve said, “All right, these are the two things that you need to do or focus on,” and we come back the next week and the guy, “And I was trying this and I was trying that,” just talking about the different aspects of completely off topic of what we focused on, 100% chance that they haven’t made those changes, because they’ve just gotten distracted and are working on things that they don’t actually need to work on.

Baden Schaff: 100%, yeah. In golf, we call them searches. They’re just a every day they’re on YouTube and watching something different and trying a different thing every day, and there’s no doubt, look how I used to be one of those, as a kid I was always searching for that probably quick fix. And I think in the golf industry, we are to blame for the problems that we have, because through all of the… Not necessarily social media and YouTube, but absolutely through Golf Magazines and Golf Digest and these things over the years, everything is the quick fix, “Fix your grip to gain 30 yards,” and there’s this, the rhetoric around that is just, yeah, it’s been terrible for years sort of thing. So to try and say to someone, “Hey, there is no such thing as a quick fix and it’s a six month process,” that’s, yeah, it takes a special kind of person.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. I’ve tried to make my messaging a bit more about that, is having that longterm thinking and being willing to put up, sort of suck it up for a couple of weeks while it doesn’t feel good, and letting them know how long to expect, how long it can actually take. And what I’ve enjoyed about doing that is it doesn’t set unrealistic expectations, and I think and for me it attracts a type of person that I really enjoy working with, because they actually are willing to put in the work and think longterm about it. So, and when you’re coaching, that’s what it’s kind of all about, is working with people who you enjoy working with, and have got the right mindset and frame of mind about it.

Baden Schaff: Yeah, I completely agree.

Brenton Ford: And so for the coaching that you’re doing, you’re pretty much all one-on-one coaching, what sort of timeframe do you like to see people in? Is it once a week, once every two weeks? What have you found to work best?

Baden Schaff: It really depends on the student. So I sort of pretty much getting back to sort of what we just talked about in there, it comes down to what they’re doing in between time. So the biggest misconception when you come and get a golf lesson is that when you’re walking away from that golf lesson you’ve done your work, it’s actually the opposite of that, that’s when the work starts. So, when you come and get a lesson from an incredibly content heavy, I use Skillest all day to literally record everything I’m saying to them effectively. So I use the analytical tools and I draw all over and I’d bring in model swings and I compare them, so when a student goes home, they can go home with up to 20, 25 minutes worth of content from an hour long lesson sort of thing.

Baden Schaff: But that’s their information, that’s when they take that they go home and they do something with it. If they do absolutely nothing in between time, it can work both ways. Sometimes I need to come back immediately, because they effectively need you to be there to get better, but sometimes if they’re working on it, just grinding away, standing in front of mirrors, doing really slow motion swings, I love a lot of slow motion stuff. When I go and hit golf balls, and I still do this a lot, I’m always working my own golf swing. I’ve very rarely hit driver, three wood or anything really long, all I do is stand there and train my body to do the right thing, and I only really use sort of use [inaudible 00:21:45], to do that.

Baden Schaff: And then when I actually go to the golf course, I hit my drive really well, even though I’m never practicing with it, because I’ve just trained my body to do the right thing with the smaller club. So it’s the students who go away, drill it in, then they’ll use Skillest often to send me something and just make sure they’re working on things the right way, I’ll be like, “Yep, that’s perfect,” or “No, you need to do a lot more of that.”

Baden Schaff: I mean you can sort of, you can go as long as sort of four weeks in between seeing someone as long as they’re chipping away at the right things. But then sometimes with the student, if they are coming along and they literally swing, it’s a train wreck, they’ve got things moving all over the place, it’s completely unrepeatable, they don’t know where their ball flight’s going and it is a really big rebuild, you may literally have to see them within the week again sort of thing.

Baden Schaff: So it really does depend on who the student is, what stage of the game they’re at, and then what they’re doing in between time, which is absolutely everything, is what they’re doing in between time.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. I’ve found a very similar thing when a people join our Stroke Analysis Membership. Some people will I say, “Look, send a video next week or in two weeks after you’ve had a chance to practice these drills,” and maybe for the first two to three months, they’re sending a video every week or two and then after that, you can extend it out and might end up being three or four weeks or even more than that depending on where they’re at. So yeah, usually the newer swimmers, the more beginner swimmers need that little bit more, that higher frequency, and then those that are more experienced, not as often. But usually in the beginning, I like to have them send videos on a more regular basis, because then you can get a sense of their ability to be able to change their stroking.

Brenton Ford: When I first started coaching people online or working on helping them with their technique, I had no idea if it would work at all. I don’t know if you had that same sort of question about when you started coaching people through Skillest, and you didn’t actually seem to face-to-face, and I thought, “Look, I’ll give it a try and just see what happens.” But I was amazed at the results that people have gotten and continue to get just through online coaching, people who I’ve never met face-to-face.

Brenton Ford: What I think it’s about, is if you can explain things the right way, you can assign the right drill and let them know how it will feel and then what to expect, and you have that high enough frequency of sort of getting videos that, people then in their own time, they can just really think about it and they’re not overly sort of stress because they’re not in this pressure situation of having someone look over them, it actually can work even better sometimes for some people.

Baden Schaff: Well that’s exactly what we’re finding on the golfing side of things is, and this is probably, it was a thesis of ours, but we weren’t 100% sure if it was going to work out that way. If you think about Driving Range where I work, and I still do work, sort of takes three days a week sort of thing. This by PGA professional standing there, you walk in there, there’s a lot of commotion, you walk over to your car, it’s really quite intimidating, he’s already given seven lessons that day, you have much patience, it’s a horrible learning environment to be perfectly honest. And especially, and I know when I’ve had swimming lessons and when I’ve had even sort of stroke correction during a squad session, it’s just the wrong time but almost do it, because you’re so intent on doing it right in that really small amount of time you’ve got to do it.

Baden Schaff: So obviously it’s, at the Driving Range, just like a sausage factory, people are coming in for hour, after hour sort of thing, and you’re so intent on getting it right as a student in that one hour that you can’t actually execute. Whereas this is, “Okay, here’s the information, this is what you need to work on in your stroke or in your golf swing. Do it in your own time, in a really safe and comfortable environment, and do it without the pressure.” And that’s exactly what we’re finding, is that there’s also a sense of self-discovery that goes on that doesn’t happen as much in the one-on-one environment, when your pro is there, your golf pro or when you’re swimming coach is there, basically you’re pretty much are being told what to do and there’s no self-discovery component to it at all, whereas this is what happens online.

Baden Schaff: So I mean, there’s a bunch of things that have started popping up that way, I’m really excited about in Skillest, which is we think it could potentially been even better way to learn, which is exactly what you just said, so, yeah we’re really excited about that. Having worked with people who are sort of learning specialists, we know that learning isn’t linear and it takes a lot of time, but as soon as you add multiple stimuli to the environment, you can retain anything effectively.

Baden Schaff: So, if you go to a really busy swimming pool, right? And you’ve got a really great character but potentially really intimidating coach, and then you’ve got six other people in the line with you, who look like they’re doing it perfectly and you feel like you can’t, these environmental things mean that you just won’t be able to execute effectively. So if you can put yourself in your really comfortable own environment, and just thinking about what relates to you, don’t worry about what anyone else is thinking, it’s proven that that’s actually a better environment to learn in.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. That’s interesting that you’ve, I mean found pretty much exactly what I’ve come to learn over the last few years of coaching people online. And I think with squad, trying to get any sort of technique help in a squad is virtually impossible. Because first of all, the coach just doesn’t have the time to be able to dedicate the time that’s needed to be able to sort of give you feedback and explain it properly. And obviously there’s all the other people swimming, you’re going fast, you just don’t have the time and the space to be able to change it. So, I think that’s why our clinics have… Part of the reason why the clinics are really popular, is that that’s all we do. We just focus on technique, it’s six swimmers, it’s one coach, got heaps of time, heaps of space and you have that time to go through that self-discovery and there’s no one, yes some people will be a bit nervous at the start, but as you go through it’s like everyone’s in the same boat, so yeah, that’s an interesting find.

Brenton Ford: And I was quite surprised when I started to see some of the improvements that people were getting, and I had a guy email me two days ago and he started off around 210 per 100, he’s now down around 140, and I’m going to get him on a podcast soon as well. But there’s been so many people like that who have done exactly the same just through regular feedback, and it’s really good to see. And I think for me as well, from a coaching perspective, when you just there, there’s no pressure to, not be beyond your game sort of thing, it’s kind of not the way I say it, but when you’re just at home, it’s quiet, you look at the video, you can just kind of get a really good sense of what they’re doing, and then it’s easy to pick out the faults and give those corrections. It’s-

Baden Schaff: And that’s… Sorry to interrupt, but that’s the other thing that we’re seeing, there’s a coach that uses the AR app in New York and he said to me the other day, “I’ve never given a bad online lesson,” because when someone is standing in front of you… This is obviously getting back to the sausage factory thing at the Driving Range where you might have nine, one hour lessons in a row you might have 18, half an hour lessons during that period.

Baden Schaff: Basically you’ve got to make really split second decisions on, “Hey, you’re going to totally reconstruct this person’s golf swing,” and you quite literally at the very start when you get that video and you’re sitting down there, you are making split second decisions that are going to have really longterm ramifications for this person’s progression. Whereas when I get someone sending me video, I might watch it as soon as it pops up in my Skillest profile, and I’ll have a quick look at it and then I’ll put it back down and I might go on with the rest of my day, for the next few hours before I even think about giving him or her any information at all. And that just is such a better way to actually come up with the best strategy for what they need to do.

Brenton Ford: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Had someone told me that four or five years ago, I wouldn’t have believed them. I would have thought that, “There’s no way they you can be better than face-to-face, but there’s so many benefits to it. So mate, that’s fantastic. Well thanks for sharing that and thank you hugely for creating Skillest, because it’s made my life so much easier and just don’t stop because we really need it, we rely heavily on it, so mate thanks very much. And if anyone is looking to get in contact with you in terms of Skillest or if they enjoy their golf and they live in Melbourne or around the world, because I know you’re starting to run some sort of camps or trips around the world, so what’s the best way to get in contact with you?

Baden Schaff: Yeah, we’ll email is [email protected], and I’m on Instagram as well, which is Baden Schaff, which is B-A-D-E-N, S-C-H-A-F-F, you can get me there, DM me there. And yeah, obviously you can download Skillest, there’s cool content you can watch on there as well. But if you do have your golf swing, you can literally send it to me and we can break it down and work together wherever you live.

Brenton Ford: Love it. Thanks very much mate, and I’ll chat with you soon.

Baden Schaff: Thanks, Brenton.

Brenton Ford: All right.

And sometimes I think when you are breaking things down to such a simplistic level, people can feel like they’re going back to the beginning, you know, right? And they feel like, oh my gosh, like I’m literally a beginner again, like I’m beyond this sort of things. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to episode number 142 of the Effortless Swimming podcast. My guest today is Baden Schaaf, who is a PGA pro in golf, and he is also the co-creator of Skillist. Now, you might have heard me talk about Skillist. This is the app that we use at our clinics and at our camps to help swimmers, to help analyze swimmers’ strokes, and also just to really show them what they’re doing under the water. And for me, this is an app that has completely changed the way that we coach.

And I’ve got Baden to thank for that. And we’re going to talk a little bit about Skillist, but also talk about what a lot of some lessons that Baden has learned from coaching people in golf and how we can apply that to swimming and how you can improve your own swimming through some of those lessons. So Baden, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Brenton. Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here. We’ve known each other for quite a few years now. I was trying to think back when it was, but I mean, I’m thinking maybe five years, do you reckon? Yeah, I think potentially even longer. Yeah. Yeah. Potentially longer. I’ve always sort of been in the periphery of my thinking because I do love my swimming and I went and got coaching from you. I reckon it must have been seven years ago now. Yeah. I’ll have to search through the emails because the funny thing is, we sort of met each other through swimming. And then a couple of years ago, you and your business partner, Alan, developed

the Skillist app, which was primarily set up for helping you teach the golfers that you’re coaching and improve the way that you coach them. So how did that originate and what was the purpose behind it originally? Because I mean, for me, it has just been such a game changer. I can’t emphasise enough for coaching people at our clinics and camps now. Yeah, and that’s just the coolest thing ever to hear. Obviously, when we built it originally, we always had visions that it would be across multiple sports. So that was why I came to you originally to see if you thought it was something applicable to you. But I suppose the origination of the whole idea came from, you know, I’ve been teaching the game golf for 15 years. And it’s just during those 15 years that I just saw so many problems with our industry. So the way you use the app is very much in person where you teach people that are standing in front of you or swimming in front of you.

And it’s great for that, for being able to analyse their strokes and then send them home and they effectively then become part of your digital academy where they can send their stroke when they’re swimming on their own and things like that. But that’s that component of it, that online coaching component. That is what we set out to really solve originally. So as a golf pro, I mean, I hated the fact that I had to live in a really, really densely populated area to be super busy. I just couldn’t understand why can’t I live in the country and still be able to coach? So obviously, I was very much restricted by geography, very much restricted by seasonality. So in summer, you’re incredibly busy in winter, incredibly quiet. And then I also just noticed a lot of problems with the way students were actually trying to integrate what I wanted them to do. They effectively had to be standing in front of me to be getting better.

So people would come for a golf lesson. They would then disappear. They’d come back like five weeks later and they’d sort of integrated or they try to remember what you taught them and, you know, life got in the way and they didn’t do their drills and they hadn’t done anything. And effectively, you give them the exact same lesson when they come back to see you. So what we wanted to do and what we set out to do is effectively create this global marketplace for coaching using video analysis. So you could learn from any coach anywhere in the world that you either found on social or through our platform. And then we gave these awesome streamlined tools to be able to upload video footage whenever you wanted. So because that was one thing in particular is that when I was teaching someone, I knew that all I needed to do was tell them that they were working on things the right way. So what I mean by that is that they could after 24 hours of getting a golf lesson,

they could then effectively send something back to me and just say, hey, is this what you wanted me to do? And I think that’s one of the reasons that people haven’t regressed at golf is because they do disappear for four or five weeks at a time and they just don’t know if they’re working on things the right way. So that was sort of the genesis of the idea. And now, you know, we’ve got hundreds of weekly active coaches, golf coaches on the app. And we were talking about it previously. We’ve got coaches making up one of a hundred thousand dollars teaching through their phone to their students all around the world. And this might I mean, I’ve sort of emphasised how much I love the app. I’ve got no interest in it apart from we use it. And it’s basically saved me from employing someone two to three days a week to download, upload, rename videos from clinics and camps that we do. Like it just it has saved me so much time and had made my job so much easier to do.

And what I what I really like about the app is like what we’ll often do at clinics is we film people, we do the analysis. And then at the end of the the clinic, we will just upload it, hit submit. And then that person’s got it on their app. And so I know people that look at that, you know, almost pretty much every week and they’re going to write, this is what I was doing. And now this is what I need to change. And it’s really clear what those things are that they need to change. And then now the app is sort of more intended for people who are you can get access to coaches around the world. We use it sort of slightly differently at the moment. But I love just the ease of use and being able to

essentially just use video in a really easy way where you’re not mucking around with like emailing files and all this sort of stuff. Like it’s just it makes that very easy. And what what we do now as well is like we do follow up filmings for clinics. So someone who’s come to a clinic, they can come back and get another filming done and then I do the analysis during the week. And the really cool thing about what we can do now is we can like I can pull up the old video, look at the changes that they’ve made and go, right, this one’s looking good. This is good. All right, you might need to focus back in on on your alignment and now focus on these couple of things. So yeah, just just a really, really cool way to be able to do what what we do. And I mean, you’ve been coaching for a number of years now. And I want to sort of explore some of those things that you’ve

I mean, sort of how you use the app to coach, but also some of those things that you’ve learned as a coach that’s helped you get better results with your students. So if we dive into a couple of those, what what are some lessons that you’ve learned in the last five to 10 years that has changed the way that you approach your coaching?

Look, golf is just this crazy game. So as most of or probably all of your listeners who have tried to play the game. No, it’s it’s, you know, sublime to the ridiculous. You have moments of genius. And then other times you look completely uncoordinated. And this is the the fundamental problem with the game that people can. I always say that you can’t accidentally get into a swimming pool and swim 50 meters in 21 seconds like it just doesn’t happen. But you can actually stand on a, you know, the hardest golf hole in the world and you can hole an iron shot from 200 meters away. And so what that does, it effectively gives you this false sense of security. Like it gives you this impression that you should be able to do that all the time. So the hard thing with golf is that people are they’re always looking at their absolute best and thinking, OK, I should be able to repeat that all the time. But it’s actually a lot further away than what they think.

So, yeah, the fundamental problem is is just how it can seem so easy at times. But being able to do that on a repeatable basis is the hardest thing in the world. And the problem that we face at driving ranges, for example, where I teach is that when we’re trying to fix someone’s golf swing, so as you discuss, we film their swing, we get them up on the video and we analyze them. And then I get them in front of mirrors and I train their body to do the correct thing. We’ll do lots of drills, lots of dry work where we don’t even hit a golf ball. So we try and do lots of that stuff. But the problem is, as soon as they turn around and hit that golf ball, they’re worried about the ball flight. So they’re always reacting to the ball flight. And so my job is always to say, look, let’s not even worry about the ball fly. That is going to be a consequence of how we change your body to work. But it’s really, really difficult because you’ve got that extra factor.

You’ve got that that feedback. Every so every time you make a golf swing, you’ve got the feedback of was that a good one or a bad one based on how well the ball’s flying. So that’s incredibly difficult to deal with, where when you’re trying to get someone to do a completely different move with their body to what they’re used to, trying to feel very different and then not react to the ball flight is incredibly hard. So what we do is obviously try and get people to drill things as much as possible. I get people to stand at home in front of mirrors all day long. So I remember when I went and studied at an academy up in Queensland in the early 2000s, this brilliant coach who is still my mentor said to us, OK, you need to go and get mirrors. And what my myself and my best friend did, we literally went down to Suzanne’s and we went everywhere we could go and we found every mirror possible so that in the apartment that we were living in,

you could not turn around a corner without looking at yourself. So we literally so you’d be there having a beer on the balcony and we had mirrors out on the balcony so that you could stand there and train your body to do the correct thing without the influence of the ball there. And there’s absolutely no doubt that that is what gets people to do the right thing because you take that external influence of watching the ball fly all the time. So that’s the thing that is really hard to do. And I’m probably carrying on here a little bit. But the the other thing that is really, really hard to deal with is that they everyone plays this Saturday, right? So generally, everyone who I’m coaching has got to play this coming Saturday. So you can train them and push their body around and they can feel like they’re almost having an outer body experience with the way that their body is working relative to what it used to.

And the problem is, is that they might have four days to try and train that in. And then when they stand on that first tee on Saturday in their Saturday com, they’ll be standing there with their three mates that they play with every week. They know that they usually slice the ball over to the right. The bunkers over there on the left and everything just goes out the window. They’re just like, OK, I’m just going to go back and do what I always did, sort of thing. So these are the really, really difficult things that we face all the time. And sometimes I will tell students that, you know, maybe don’t play for a couple of weeks and we just we just train your body. So, yeah. So they’re the things that I’ve really learnt over the years. And, yeah, some of the big problems that we face. That’s interesting. The comparison for me, I guess, is like this or the similarities there is that when we we do these drills now for learning the catch and the pull

that are really different and really simple compared to what we used to teach because that, I think, is one of the harder aspects of the stroke to learn. And so we basically like one of the main drills that we do is called YMCA drill and that will just take people through for the four key positions in the catch and the pull that you see pretty much every elite swimmer move through. And we they kick for five seconds or they spend five seconds in those four key positions. So it ends up being about 20 seconds for the full cycle. But the good thing about that is they have the time to be able to look at what their arms are doing, make any adjustments if they need to. And that’s kind of like the mirror for them. They actually get to see what they’re doing. And if they’re not in the right position, make the change and then continue on with it. And what I’ve found by doing that drill is that then they’re not they’re not

overthinking things because with drills like there’s drills like a doggie scoop and long dog paddle and all these other ones that we that I think are still great and they have a purpose. But with all of those drills, they’re in they’re moving all the time. And it’s quite a complex movement just going through the catch itself. So this is really good for just getting them to to adjust their position and have that ability to see what they’re doing and then change it. And then what I like to get them to do to to be able to maintain that in their full stroke is sometimes you can just put a snorkel or keep a snorkel on, put a pool boy in so you take the legs and the breathing out of it. And then you can just even continue to look at the arms at what they’re doing. And you just kind of take that easy step first, then you might take the pool boy out to keep the snorkel on and do a few laps of swimming and then just sort of take the snorkel off as well.

And just progressively build up to that full stroke. But yeah, just taking it step by step and making or giving them time or letting them know it’s going to take some time to be able to replicate that at full speed and for longer, longer distances. And it’s I think the comparison between going out and playing golf with your mates and then just falling back into old habits. That to me is either, you know, swimming with with friends at a squad or swimming with them at the pool or being on the watch and uploading your data to Strava and not wanting to look like you’re going 10 seconds slower per hundred if you need to go through that regression to eventually get faster. Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn’t agree with that more. And yeah, and sometimes I think when you are breaking things down to such a simplistic level, people can feel like they’re going back to the beginning, you know what I mean? They feel like, oh my gosh, like I’m literally a beginner again,

like I’m beyond this sort of thing. So that’s also very, very scary for a lot of students is when you’re trying to teach them the scales before they play Beethoven, you know, they can feel like, my God, I’m starting all over again. But as you and I both know, it’s not that at all. It’s just, yeah, it’s just getting things correct. And it’s amazing. I mean, I always say that when someone is getting a lesson from me and with feel like they feel like they’re being ripped apart, it might only be a relatively simple change. But as you know, the way something feels and the way it is a completely different things. But they can actually feel like when you’re changing it in their brain, they all they start to say to themselves, oh, my God, I’m five years away from getting this. So they really they it feels like it’s five years away. But if they actually do the right work and put their time and put the time in, it can happen in months if you know what I mean.

So it can feel like it’s starting all over again. But if they just stick to their processes, it can actually happen a lot faster than what they’re imagining it’s going to be. Yeah. And you certainly see that when you coach so many people is that you can see roughly the path that if they continue on this path with the changes that you want them to make, you can see where they can end up three, four, five months down the track. And that can be well ahead of where they currently are. But it just feel it just feel so so awkward sometimes. Yeah. And what I’ve what I’ve started to do at times, depending on the person is like at the end of a clinic, we will have gone through our drill progression and sequence, and we’ll be doing the final analysis. And for some people, if there’s more than say one or two things to work on, I’ll say right for the next two to three weeks, you might just focus on your head position and your posture.

You might think about keeping your neck long and you might do front kick drill to help implement that change. And then after that, then you might look to work on your your alignment and make it go a little bit wider. I do that for two to three weeks. And then after that, go through those catch and pull drills to continue to develop that. So just giving them that little bit of structure and expected time to be able to make those changes a little bit more automatic. And and that way I’ve found like the other case. Well, I can I can do that for the next sort of eight to ten weeks and it doesn’t feel like I’m a year or two away from getting to where I need to be. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, it takes discipline though, doesn’t it? That’s the thing. It’s just it’s just not for everyone. That is just something that that’s one thing I’ve definitely become very aware of. Like I hate to ever judge students, but you can know

relatively quickly. I think that whether or not any this is going to work with a certain student because I mean, it sort of gets back to what I said just before is that students know that they want to play this Saturday. And I mean, I get this situation where sometimes people will walk in just holding on to their driver. They won’t have bought any other golf club. They’ve only got their driver and they just want to fix their driver for Saturday sort of thing. And I’m like, oh, my God, this is so not my student sort of thing. So it takes it does take a special type of student who’s willing to go through a little pain, go through the process, have a lot of discipline for what is absolutely incredible benefits at the end of it. And I one of the challenges that I have is and you’re I mean, I know you put out a lot of content as well, just like video content is that there’s so many different things to think about.

And I sort of do two videos a week, but then our team puts that into about five to 10 different videos and they’re all talking about similar but different topics. And so it’s very easy to get distracted. So if I ever coach someone throughout like online coaching or at a clinic, I let them know that anything like any videos you see of mine over the next like three to four months, ignore them because you’ve now got what you need to you’ve now got those things that are going to help you swim faster. So don’t get distracted. And you have over doing like a one on one with someone and do a follow up with them. And you know, I’ve said, all right, these are the two things that you need to do or focus on. And we come back the next week and they’re going, oh, and I was trying this and I was trying that and just talking about the different aspects of completely off off topic of what we focused on. Yeah, 100% chance that they haven’t made

those changes because they’ve just gotten distracted and are working on things that they don’t actually need to work on. 100%, yeah, we call in golf, we call them searches, you know, they’re just every day they’re on YouTube and watching something different and trying a different thing every day. And there’s no doubt. Look, I used to be one of those as a kid. I was always searching for that probably quick fix. And I think in the golf industry, you know, we are to blame for our the problems that we have because through all of the not necessarily social media and YouTube, but absolutely through golf magazines and golf digest and these things over the years, everything is, you know, the quick fix, like fix your grip to gain 30 yards. And there’s this, you know, the rhetoric around that is just, yeah, it’s been terrible for years sort of thing. So to try and say to someone, hey, there is no such thing as a quick fix and it’s a six month

process that’s, yeah, it’s, it takes a special kind of person. Yeah, I’ve tried to make my messaging a bit more about that is like having that long term thinking and being willing to put up sort of suck it up for a couple of weeks while it doesn’t feel good and letting them know how long to expect, how long it can actually take. And what I’ve enjoyed about doing that is it doesn’t set unrealistic expectations. And I think it and for me to tracks a type of person that I really enjoy working with because they actually are willing to put in the work and think long term about it. So and that, you know, when you’re coaching, that’s that’s what it’s kind of all about is working with people who you enjoy working with and I’ve got the the right mindset and frame of mind about it. Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, completely agree. And so for for the coaching that you’re you’re doing like you’re pretty much all one on one coaching.

What what sort of timeframe do you like to see people in like is it once a once a week, once every two weeks, what have you found to work best?

It really depends on the student. So sort of pretty much getting back to sort of what we just talked about in that it comes down to what they’re doing in between times. So the biggest misconception when you come and get a golf lesson is that when you’re walking away from that golf lesson, you’ve done your work. It’s actually the opposite of that. That’s when the work starts. So you’re when you come and get a lesson from me like I’m incredibly content heavy, like I use skillist all day to literally record everything I’m saying to them effectively. So you know, I use the analytical tools and I draw all over it and I bring in, you know, model swings and I compare them. So when a student goes home, they can go home with up to like 20, 25 minutes worth of content from an hour long lesson sort of thing. So so but that’s that’s their information. That’s when they take that they go home and they do something with it. If they do absolutely nothing

in between time, they can work both ways. Sometimes they need to come back immediately because they need they effectively need you to be there to get better. But sometimes if they’re working on it, just grinding away, standing in front of mirrors, doing really, really slow motion swings. I love a lot of slow motion stuff. You know, like when I go and hit golf balls and I still do this a lot, like I’m always working at my own golf swing. I very rarely hit driver, three wood or anything, you know, really long. I’m all I do is stand there and train my body to do the right thing. And I only really use sort of, you know, eight irons and seven irons to do that. And then when I actually go to the golf course, I hit my driver really well, even though I’m never practicing with it because I’ve just trained my body to do the right thing with the smaller club. So it’s the students who go away, drill it in, then they’ll use skillist often to send me

something and just make sure they’re working on things the right way. I’ll be like, yep, that’s perfect or no, no, you need to do a lot more of that. I mean, you can sort of. I don’t like you can go as long as sort of four weeks in between seeing someone as long as they’re chipping away at the right things. But then sometimes with a student, if they are coming along and they literally swing it, it’s a train wreck, you know, they’ve got things moving all over the place. It’s completely unrepeatable. They don’t know where their ball flights going and it is a really, really big rebuild. You may literally have to see them within the week again sort of thing. So it really does depend on who the student is, what stage of their game they’re at and then what they’re doing in between time, which is absolutely everything is what they’re doing in between time. Yeah, yeah, I’ve found it very similar thing. When people join our stroke

analysis membership, some people will, I say, look, send a video next week or in two weeks after you’ve had a chance to practice these drills. And yeah, and maybe for the first like two to three months, they’re sending a video every week or two. And then after that, you know, you can extend it out and might end up being three or four weeks or even even more than that depending on where they’re at. So yeah, usually the the newer swimmers, the more beginner swimmers need that little bit more, that higher frequency. And then those that are more experienced, not, not as often. But usually in the beginning, I like to have them send videos on a more regular basis, because then you can just you can get a sense of their ability to be able to change their their stroke. And when I first started coaching people online or working on helping them with their technique, I had no idea if it would work at all. And you I don’t know if you had

that same sort of like question about when you started coaching people through through skill us and you didn’t actually seem to face to face. And I thought look, I’ll give it a try and just see what happens. But I was I was amazed at the results of people have gotten and continue to get just through online coaching people who have never met face to face like it’s what I think it’s about is like if you can explain things the right way, you can assign the right drill and and let them know how it will feel and then what to expect. And you have that free high enough frequency of sort of getting videos that like people then have their in their own time they can just really think about it. And they’re not overly sort of stressed because they’re not in this so precious situation of having someone look over them like it actually can can work even better sometimes for some people.

Well, that’s exactly what we’re finding on the golfing side of things is and this is probably it was a thesis of ours, but we weren’t 100 percent sure if it was going to work out that way. If you think about a driving range where I work, you know, there’s and I still do work, you know, sort of teach three days a week sort of thing. There’s five PGA professionals standing there.

You walk in there. There’s, you know, a lot of commotion. You walk over to your pro. It’s really quite intimidating. He’s already given seven lessons that day might be have, you know, much patience. It’s a horrible learning environment to be perfectly honest and especially and I know when I’ve had swimming lessons and when I’ve had even sort of stroke correction during a squad session, it’s just the wrong time or almost do it because you’re so you’re so intent on doing it right in that really small amount of time you’ve got to do it. So obviously it’s like, you know, at the driving range, it’s like a saucy tractor, people are coming in for hour after hour after hour sort of thing. And you’re so intent on getting it right as a student in that one hour that you can’t actually execute. Whereas this is OK, here’s the information. This is what you need to work on in your stroke or in your golf swing. Do it in your own time in a

really safe and comfortable environment and do it without the pressure. And that’s exactly what we’re finding is that there’s also a sense of self discovery that goes on that doesn’t happen as much in the one on one environment when your pro is there, your golf pro or when your swimming coach is there. Basically, you’re pretty much are being told what to do and there’s no self discovery component to it at all. Whereas this is what happens online. So I mean, this is the there’s a bunch of things that have started popping up that we’re really excited about in skill us, which is we thought we think it could potentially be an even better way to learn, which is exactly what you just said. So it’s yeah, we’re really, really excited about that. It’s like having worked with people who are sort of learning specialists. They like we know that learning isn’t linear and it takes a lot of time. But as soon as you add multiple stimuli to

the environment, you can’t retain anything effectively. So, you know, if you go to a really busy swimming pool and you’ve got a really great coach but potentially really intimidating coach and then you’ve got six other people in the lane with you who look like they’re doing it perfectly and you feel like you can these environmental things mean that you just won’t be able to execute effectively. So if you can put yourself in your really comfortable own environment and just think about what relates to you. Don’t worry about what anyone else is thinking. We it’s it’s proven that that’s actually a better better environment to learn in. Yeah, that’s interesting that you’ve I mean, found pretty much exactly what I’ve come to learn over the last two years of coaching people online. And I think with it, like with squad trying to get any sort of technique help in a squad is just is virtually impossible because first of all, the coach just doesn’t have

the time to be able to dedicate the time that’s needed to be able to sort of give you feedback and explain it properly. And obviously, there’s all the other people swimming. If you’re you’re training, you’re going fast. You just don’t have the time in the space to be able to to change it. So that’s like I think that’s why like our clinics have part of the reason why the clinics are really popular is that that’s all we do. We just focused on technique. It’s six swimmers. It’s one coach got heaps of time, heaps of space and and you have that time to go through that that self-discovery. And there’s no like, yes, people, some people will be a bit nervous at the start. But as you go through it, it’s like everyone’s in the same in the same boat. So yeah, that’s that’s an interesting find. And I was quite surprised when I started to see some of the improvements that people were getting. And like how did I email me two days ago? And he started off

around 210 per hundred. He’s now down around 140. And I’m going to get him on a podcast soon as well. And but there’s been so many people like that who who have done exactly the same just through regular feedback. And it’s it’s really good to to see. And I think for me as well from a coaching perspective, when you like you just there, you there’s no pressure to like not be beyond your game sort of thing. Like it’s kind of not not the way I see it. But like when you are when you’re just at home, it’s quiet. You look at the video, you can just kind of get a really good sense of what they’re doing. And then you can it’s easy to pick out the faults and give those corrections. It’s and that’s sorry to interrupt, but that is that’s the other thing that we’re seeing is that I there’s a coach that uses our app in New York and he said to me the other day, I’ve never given a bad online lesson because when you get the information, you know, because when you

when someone is standing in front of you, this is obviously getting back to the sausage factory thing at the driving range where you might have nine one hour lessons in a row or you know, you might have 18 half an hour lessons during that period.

Basically, you’ve got to make really split second decisions on how you’re going to totally reconstruct this person’s goal swing and you quite literally at the very start when you’re, you know, you get that video and you’re sitting down there. You are making split second decisions that are going to have really long to random ramifications for this person’s progression. Whereas when I get someone sending me video, I might watch it as soon as it pops up in my skills profile. And I’ll have a quick look at it. And then I’ll put it back down and I might go on, you know, with the rest of my day for, you know, the next few hours before I even think about giving him any him or her any information at all. And that just is such a better way to actually, you know, come up with the best strategy for for what they need to do. Yeah. Had someone told me that four or five years ago, I wouldn’t have believed them or would have thought in that.

There’s no way that it can be better than face to face. But there’s there’s so many benefits to it. So, mate, that’s that’s fantastic. Well, thanks for sharing that. And thank you hugely for creating skillist because it’s made my life so much easier. And just don’t don’t stop because we we really need it. We rely heavily on it. So, mate, thanks very much. And if anyone is looking to get in contact with with you in terms of skillist or if they enjoy their golf and they live in Melbourne or around the world, because I know you run you’re starting to run some sort of camps or trips, trips around the world. So what’s the best way to get in contact with you?

Yeah, well, email is badenatskillist.co and I’m on Instagram as well, which is Baden Shaft, which is B-A-D-E-N-S-C-H-A-Double-F. You can get me there, DM me there. And yeah, obviously, you can download skillist. There’s cool content you can watch on there as well. But if you do have your golf swing, you can literally send it to me and we can break it down and work together wherever you live. Love it. Thanks very much, mate. And I’ll chat with you soon. Thanks, Brandon.

Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.

The post Lessons From Golf That Will Improve Your Swimming With Baden Schaff appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

We sit down with Josh Minogue as we talk about how patience pays off, his Coolangatta Gold triumph and his triathlon journey.

04:09 Swimming Background
07:16 How Can Disappointment Be Good For Me?
09:08 If You Stop Learning, Stop Coaching
10:08 Being An Athlete and Being A Coach
13:12 Coaching And Training For Triathlon
14:43 Trying Something New
18:23 Transition From Swimming To Surf Ironman
24:46 Giving The Coolangatta Gold Another Try
34:28 Not Competing in Surf Ironman
37:41 “I’m So Glad I Did It” Moments
39:02 Two Types Of Fun
42:33 Pain Is Inevitable, Suffering Is Optional
44:11 Future Challenges
48:42 Some Lesson Are Learned In The Doing

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Transcription:

Brenton Ford: So Josh, we used to race each other back in the day. And I think it was at Hobart Aquatic Center. I think I might’ve been like-

Josh Minogue: A long time ago.

Brenton Ford: I was like 12 or 13. I remember we might’ve raced against each other in a final there or something and I just remember seeing you afterwards and I think you might’ve been done and I was done and we were playing in the kid’s pool for a while, like mocking around I was like, and I think… and you were really at a pretty high level then and I was kind of afraid to talk-

Josh Minogue: I don’t know about that.

Brenton Ford: Well, I think you’re a sub two minute freestyler and I was hovering just above. And so if you’re quicker than two minutes for the 200, you’re a big deal. And, so I was probably a bit too afraid to say anything. But, a mate of mine, Simon Hearn, saw some of his posts on the weekend and saw that you raced at the same race and I thought, you’d be a good guest to get on with your background in swimming, in Surf Ironman and now getting into triathlon.

Brenton Ford: So if you want to just talk a little bit about your background in swimming to start with, and it probably feels like a long time ago, but, and I mean, we look back and geez, it goes fast. But I mean, you were at a very top level for quite a few years there. Do you want to share what that was?

Josh Minogue: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on first and foremost. But, I was not a bad, junior swimmer coming through. I was at the Australian final, won a couple of Australian junior titles. I swam a bit of freestyle and a bit of butterfly and got picked on a couple of Australian junior teams when I was a little bit older, like 17 or 16, 17, 18. So I had a good run there. But after 18 I never really kicked on to, like the goals, obviously the Olympics when you’re a swimmer and a swimmer in Australia.

Josh Minogue: And I got to the point where I was fourth and fifth in the country over 200 butterfly and trying to make those finals in 200 freestyle. So top 10 or pushing on the top 10, but I never really pushed on. And I had a couple of really good years in around 2006, 2007 and then 2008 and the Olympic trials came and I made a change to go to Sydney, out of Wollongong because I was at Wollongong originally with Ron McKeon and you’d know McKeon as in Emma and David who are currently on the Australian team.

Josh Minogue: And, I train with Ron my entire life growing up and made a move and thought I needed some training partners to push me on and it just never happened. So I got to those 2008 Olympic trials and I probably wasn’t good enough to get on the team anyway, but I ended up crook as a dog, the week before and finished with just finals and semi-finals, but never got to that level and swam with a lot of really good guys.

Josh Minogue: I’d swam against Michael Phelps in 200 butterfly in mid 2006 when he was at his absolute peak of his power and I’ve got that story. I can always talk about it. I’m pretty lucky to have that one. So that’s my swimming claim to fame. And I guess like so many, it’s, I guess the story of what could have been, if I’d probably not made better decisions, but just taken the path a little bit easier.

Josh Minogue: I got [inaudible 00:03:21] when I was 14 or 15 and thought I could go to the games and went all in on it. And it’s just, it’s funny how the world works, but I wouldn’t really change my path or anything because I learned a bunch of really good lessons and there’s a lot of good things you learn out of being disappointed early on in your life and you learn to overcome that and it’s not the end of the world if you don’t achieve your dream.

Josh Minogue: And I’m pretty lucky to have had that lesson at the age of 19 and as I said before, I definitely wouldn’t change it, although going to the Olympics would be fantastic. It’s set in motion a bunch of things that have gotten me to where I am today and I’ve got a family and a wonderful life up here because of it. And I don’t know what would’ve happened if I had to go into the games, but I’m pretty content with the way it’s turned out now.

Brenton Ford: And taking those lessons early on as well and coaching as you do now, how do you convey that to the athletes that you coach?

Josh Minogue: I’m lucky to coach at Sunshine Beach Surf Club, up on the Sunshine Coast now. So I guess it’s hard to tell kids about disappointment and I guess you and I be the same. You hear it when you’re young and you don’t really believe. You don’t believe it. You think, how can losing be good for me? Or how can disappointment be good for me? And it’s probably something that I try and tell the parents as much as the kids that they don’t get disheartened when their kid or when their child comes fourth or when they miss the final or when they get second.

Josh Minogue: It’s these losses are good for them in the long run. It teaches them humility and it teaches them to learn from mistakes and to analyze their races because if they’re just always winning, it just doesn’t help. Well, it doesn’t create a good a personality I guess, or a good mindset. And it tends to be the ones that win all through teenage years that when they do finally come up against a challenge, then that’s when they find out well what they’re really made of and when it’s not so easy, it really opens up their character.

Josh Minogue: And I guess I try to impart that on the kids, but it’s really tough when you’ve got 13 and 14 and 15 year olds who commit everything to a goal and they don’t get it and how they can see it as a positive in the long run. And we always talk about being disappointed but not being disheartened and try and move from your failures and see them as a challenge to come back and improve for next time. So I do my best, but it’s no easy task. I’ve got a new appreciation for all the swim coaches I had back in the day and surf coaches when I started coaching as well. It’s not an easy gig.

Brenton Ford: No, it is a good gig though. Like I’m really glad that I went into this line of work and you’re like, you get to work with great people and you get to hopefully impart some of the noise that you’ve picked up along the way. And it’s kind of like, it’s just, there’s so many different moves that you can use and so many different things that you can say or directions you can steer the athletes that you coach.

Brenton Ford: But, it’s kind of, it’s a way to be creative as well. Like you get to kind of, just figure things out and try and see what’s going to work best for each person. And it’s, I really like that creativity of it where you can have your own style and like continually learning. Like I think back to when I first started coaching about 12 years ago and, jeez, I was such a rookie then and even now, like there’s times where I think, geez, I’ve got so much to learn. But it’s like as soon as you stop learning, I think that’s probably when you should stop coaching. And like, what have you found to be the difference between being an athlete and then being a coach and having to be on the other side of the fence?

Josh Minogue: I think that, being the athlete is simpler.

Brenton Ford: For sure.

Josh Minogue: And I was always somebody who really trusted in my coaches and that was important for me. I trusted in them wholly and it was an unwavering trust and I think late in my career probably that went out the window when I left Ron. And, that was the big thing for me is that I trusted them completely and I knew that if they told me to swim 100, 100s, I knew it was good for me. So I’d do it with everything I had.

Josh Minogue: And I just think if you don’t have that trust and it’s just not going to work, and that’s probably been the toughest thing, is developing that trust with the athletes where they know that if they listen to you and they commit wholeheartedly, you’re committed as well and you’ll get a result in the end. And it might not be the result you’re looking for, but it’ll be a result. And that’s probably been well, the toughest thing or the biggest difference I guess between the two is, I’m the one making the decisions and I’m the one who’s having to think it through.

Josh Minogue: Whereas as an athlete you just get, I guess it’s not laziness, but you just fall into that, okay, I’m going to believe in them. I’m going to do the hard work and we’ll come out on the end. Where the other way around now is, it’s not so much the physical hard work, it’s probably the mental side of it in terms of planning and making sure that the path that you’re going down is the correct one.

Josh Minogue: And that’s probably the big thing I’ve struggled with starting off coaching is just, knowing or trusting in yourself and your own plan and having different plans for different people who have different personalities and different skill sets. And that’s been the one is keeping the faith when it gets tough or when it doesn’t seem like it’s working or when you might get a couple of bad results in a row. That’s really been the hard one so far and something I’m having to learn to deal with.

Josh Minogue: And I’ve been lucky to have some great coaches in my life, some really, really fantastic coaches, both in swimming and in surf and now in triathlon as well. So I just continually try and learn. I’ve no doubt in the world that I’m not the best coach going around, but I’m one who’s willing to work the hardest and one who will listen and I guess steal from other coaches and learn and grow and adapt and not just be set in my ways.

Josh Minogue: So that’s probably one area that I’ve really enjoyed coaching is stealing from people and seeing how they do it in different surf clubs or different swim coaches or different, coaches from other sports and stuff. Just stealing from them and trying to adapt that into our own program. So it’s definitely not an easy gig, that’s for sure. But it’s one that’s fulfilling and worthwhile when you have those kids trusting you and commit to you fully and you get to commit back and I guess chase a mutual goal.

Brenton Ford: And are you enjoying the combination of training during the triathlons now and also being able to coach? Do you find that if you’re continuing to work for something that it helps you with the coaching?

Josh Minogue: Yeah, and it keeps me sane as well. I don’t think I could go into, no exercise and stuff like that. And I guess it keeps it a little bit real for me as well. Like I always say to the kids, I’d never set them something that I wouldn’t be able to do myself or that I wouldn’t do myself. So there’s that element of keeping it real. Like if we do a run or if we do, a set in the surf, if I go, oh geez, I’d never do that or I couldn’t do that, then it’s not really appropriate.

Josh Minogue: And I think sometimes if you’re too far out of the sport or too far removed, you just forget what it really takes and what it’s like. And so I stay in the water a little bit and I make sure that I’m there doing a couple of sessions as well on the outside because if I can’t do it, then there’s no way that they are going to be able to do it. Or if I struggle to, then some of them probably will, but the majority will just walk away.

Josh Minogue: So, I enjoy doing that triathlon element. And it’s just a personal goal thing as well. Like I think everybody’s got to have goals and challenges and that’s a big one for me is, there’s challenges professionally in terms of relationships and away from sport. But I’ve always got to have like a sporting goal as well to chase. And it seems like I’ve just got a really silly one at the moment with this whole Ironman thing and I’m loving it. But, it’s definitely not an easy.

Brenton Ford: And that’s what I found. Like I’ve done a season of triathlon and I’m-

Josh Minogue: Nice.

Brenton Ford: … just about to get back into it. And, I enjoyed like trying something new, like the running, I’d always run a bit, but or the biking, I still suck at and I’ve got to get a lot better at. But it is good doing something new and being challenged that way because firstly the improvement that you can make can be so dramatic and when you’re at that higher end of that or the top end of the field, like especially if you with swimming and Surf Ironman, like the improvements are so marginal.

Brenton Ford: But when you’re trying something new, you really get those big gains and that can be quite fun. And I think like the sanity aspect of it too, like it gives you something to really just dial your focus into. And also the physical side of it where like if I’m physically fit, mentally I’m the same as well. But if I’m mentally fit and then physically not do anything, like it’s the physical for me often comes first. I find like forget that, the rest falls into place.

Josh Minogue: It keeps me out of trouble. I say like if I’m riding a couple of hours in the morning and running in the afternoon or swimming or whatever it is, then I’m not going to go and have six beers after work on a Friday afternoon kind of thing. Like I’m going to go home and do a session and go to bed and you’re spot on. There’s something to be said about challenges that are hard and they really test you and there’s a lot to be said about doing something completely out of your comfort zone and similar to you while swimming, while they’ve got the same name like Ironman and Surf Ironman, they’re just so different.

Josh Minogue: I found riding the bikes so difficult and, or difficult to get fast on and that’s been the best path for me that it’s such a challenge and it’s not easy because I don’t I think… I think if you get caught doing easy things, you just take soft options everywhere in your life. And I guess it’s one of the big things I push on the kids is the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. And if you’re willing to accept a big challenge in one area of your life, you’re probably willing to do it in other areas.

Josh Minogue: And if you’re working hard in the fitness area and you’re keeping yourself in a good place, then I guess you’re doing the same mentally and at work and with your family and stuff like that as well. And it sounds really airy fairy, but I just feel like it works. Like if you can find a challenge that you’re willing to overcome in the sporting arena, I bet you you’ll look for challenges in terms of your professional career and in terms of other areas and that’ll make for a more fulfilling life.

Josh Minogue: And it’s something that I’ve only embraced the last couple of years. I was always happy to [inaudible 00:14:23] like to do the same things over and over in the same sort of, I guess the same races and guys that I knew I’d beat or the guys that I knew I could race against and now it’s like, well, I want to take on the best in the business and even if I get smacked up, at least I’ve accepted the challenge and I can come back next year and see just how much better I can be.

Brenton Ford: I completely agree with that. Like you’re focus on one aspect or you challenge yourself on one aspect and that plays out to the other areas of your life. Like say you’ve got 10 things, sort of 10 areas of your life that are happening. Let’s say two of those are going well, eight of those aren’t going well. If you focus in on those two that are going well, I find that will then transfer across to those other aspects of it. And so the same thing goes-

Josh Minogue: 100%.

Brenton Ford: … with like, but challenging yourself and going about it that way. And I mean, what was your transition from swimming to Surf Ironman like, and was there like in terms of your actual swimming, like what did you have to, was it much you had to change there with like with the stroke, with how you’re trained? How’d that go?

Josh Minogue: So in after the 2008 Olympic trials, I think that was in may, I didn’t know what to do. I moved home from Sydney to Wollongong, was living with mum and dad trying to get uni finished and I’d always wanted to do… I’d always go into the Aussie titles in terms of surf, but I’d just done the surf race or I’d go around in the Ironman and kind of get knocked out in a semi or something because I wasn’t doing any scale board work.

Josh Minogue: So then when I got home, my old man said to me, “Do you want to do the Coolangatta Gold? It’s on in six months and it’ll give you something to train for,” and I could get round reasonably, but I wasn’t very good. So I got home and decided, well, okay, I’ll do that. And got a job at home and just started training towards that and I had no idea and was training on my own and didn’t really, know what was up at all and I just do long sessions.

Josh Minogue: I just paddle as hard as I could, as long as I could. And then there was a couple of groups around town in terms of like board and ski. There was some guys like David Smith who won the Olympic gold medal for kayaking and he was a really good swimmer when we were young as well actually. And Hayden White and Ali Day and those sorts of guys were training. So I jumped in with them on [inaudible 00:16:50] and then swimming, I went back to Ron at Wollongong there and I didn’t really have to change that much.

Josh Minogue: Like I’d done a lot of surf swimming as a kid, so it came really naturally. Like I just spent all day, every day in the surf and it wasn’t a big deal. And there are differences in terms of your stroke and stuff like that. But for me it was always in built. And I guess it’s hard when I see a lot of the guys maybe you’re coaching in that that are coming to surf swimming or open water swimming late in their life and it’s just such a foreign environment for them.

Josh Minogue: I know they feel like, I’m getting dragged under or I’m going to drown or I can’t get a clean stroke. Whereas for me it was always surf swimming. Now I’m just going to surf swim and that was something I was lucky to have. Like I grew up at the beach, we’d spend every day of every… we’d just spend every day at the beach. Like I’d go swimming training. I’d come home from school, go to the beach for half an hour and body surf and then get in the and go swimming training at 4:30 kind of thing. Like I was just another part of life.

Josh Minogue: So it just came really easily in terms of that swimming. But it was the other elements of board and ski that really made me struggle. And that had an effect on my swimming as well because it’s different muscle groups and that affects your swim. And I always found out through my clubby career when I was racing in the Kellogg series or when I was training for the Coolangatta Gold or the Aussie titles that if my ski paddling was going really well, my swimming it’s sort of struggle a little bit.

Josh Minogue: So I had to be really conscious of letting that go and understanding that well, my swim is not fantastic at the moment, but it’s good enough and my ski is going a little bit better or my board’s going well. And, I had to take a backward step and just let my swimming go for a little bit and not go as in disappear. But when you go from swimming 10, 11 sessions a week, back to five or six sessions a week, you’ve naturally got that drop off and you have to find the level again and it levels itself out after 12 months and you figure out that, okay, this is where I’m at now.

Josh Minogue: And I guess you reset your PBS and what you want to hold at training and what’s acceptable and then you go again and you try and build that back up off five or six sessions a week rather than 10 or 12. Like I went from trying to swim, sub 350 for 400 to just being happy to go, hey, I’m going to go four minutes or 405 kind of thing. And that’s all 355 and that’s good enough kind of thing. And that’s all you need to be able to swim at the top level to be effective.

Josh Minogue: So it was kind of just a big race set going back into clubbies and then I moved from [inaudible 00:19:37] I went to the Sunshine Coast for a training camp to train with Michael King at the Mooloolaba club. And I remember ringing dad about two days in and I said, “Look, I’m not coming back.” And he laughed at me and said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Actually I’m going to drive home, pack my car up and then drive back to the Sunshine Coast and just move up here.”

Josh Minogue: And he was really supportive and stuff and he said, “Look, you’re only 19. Like give yourself two or three years and see if you can chase this dream.” And it had always been a dream of mine when I was a kid to be an Ironman. Like I’d looked up to him as a kid and watch the likes of [inaudible 00:20:12] and Michael King and [inaudible 00:20:15] sorts of guys that were famous and they were making money and they were going to the beach every day.

Josh Minogue: And I decided if I wasn’t going to chase that Olympic swimming dream, that I was just going to give it a go on the Sunshine Coast and see if I could become an Ironman. And I got really lucky to move into the Sunshine Coast with a bunch of good young up and coming guys, like Matt Poole and had Jack Hansen and there was [inaudible 00:20:42] and a bunch of other good [inaudible 00:20:45] and a bunch of good up and coming Ironman that were 19, 20, 21. And we all moved in here together.

Josh Minogue: And I guess the rest is history for us. Like most of those guys went on to be in the Ironman series for a long time. Some of them still are. We had the likes of Ali Day, Matt Bevilacqua, Hayden White, Kendrick Louis move in. We had, you name it, they all went through Mooloolaba at one point. We were probably the strongest, if not the second strongest, Ironman group in the country.

Josh Minogue: And I just got so lucky to find a coach like Kinney and the group like that to look after me as a 19 year old. And they’re still my mates now. They were in my bridal party when I got married earlier this year and they’re still some of the best in the business, like Poole is leading the Ironman series, and we lived together for eight years and I think I moved out and he became a whole lot better. So maybe I’m a bad influence on him.

Brenton Ford: And I remember hearing that you were about to give up the Surf Ironman and then coach Kinney said you should give the Coolangatta Gold another crack because you’d come third four times.

Josh Minogue: Yeah. So I was in the series for six years in the end or, I think I had six years in the series and I’d have a good year and a bad year and I’d be injured and I’d be up and down and it was just became really draining on me and I had some really good results where I got some good race results for me kind of thing against some great competition. Like I had some sprints out at the beach with Shannon Eckstein for thirds and fourths and I went to Perth and won a couple of big races over there and I was good, but I was never top level contender for the overall series.

Josh Minogue: I could get a race off here and there and be competitive. And I got towards the end. Well, I got towards my 30s and I just wasn’t making enough money. I was really poor and I was making enough to get by and thought, I’ll get a real job and ended up becoming a sport’s journalist on the Sunshine Coast. And then well, every couple of years I’d have to go back to the Kellogg’s trial. There’d be automatic qualifies from the year before, let’s say top six. And if you fell outside of that, you had to go back to a trial and you train all winter and get yourself ready for one day.

Josh Minogue: Where if you finished in the top 10 you’d get in. And if you missed out you have to wait 12 more months to go back. And by then I was just over go into the trial. I’d finished like seventh or eighth or ninth every year and I’d have to go back to this trial year on, year on, year on and get in. And I just, I was over it and got to the trial in September of, it must’ve been 2013. No, 2014. 2014 and got to the trial and was doing really well and I trained really hard. And was out in front by a mile in the first race and it was three races.

Josh Minogue: And basically all you had to do was get two good results and then you could have one shocker and it’d be enough to get through. Like it wasn’t brutal, but I first raced mile out in front, I got smacked by wave and my ski went about a hundred meters up in the air. And I remember when I popped back up, I could see it still going up in the air and it was, it came down into about a thousand pieces and washed into the beach.

Josh Minogue: And so I was out and got no points in that first race, which meant there was no chance I was getting through, and I decided I was done at that point. There was nothing you could tell me, nothing you’d convince me to make me ever do another Ironman race again. I was just so over it. Like I had no money. I was working a full-time job. I was training outside of that. So I’d get up at 4:30 and then wouldn’t get home until about 8:30 at night and do that five days a week. And I was just done.

Josh Minogue: And so I just drank for… I legitimately just drank for about two weeks and like partied and went out every night and had an absolute blast. It was so much fun. But about two weeks later, Kinney rang me and he’s as close to a father figure as I’ve had outside of my dad along with Ron McKeon. And he rang me and he’s like, “I can’t see you do this to yourself like you’ve done…” And I was in good form. Like I was in as good a form as I’d ever been in my whole entire life and it was just really bad luck to cop on the chest and end my trial.

Josh Minogue: Like I would’ve just rolled through the trial and got in no stress at all. The guy who ended up winning the trial was training with us day in, day out, and I was as good, if not better than he was. So I know I would’ve got through if it wasn’t for that wave. And so he just said to me, “Look man, I can’t see you do this to yourself. Can you please do this gold for me? We’ve got…” it might’ve been eight weeks and he’s like, “We’ve got eight weeks to prepare. Please, please, please.” And I just kept saying no.

Josh Minogue: And then in the end I made him a deal that if I said yes, this one last time he’d never asked me again to go and train or to go and race and that we were done and we agreed to it. And I went back to training the next day and did eight weeks with one or two other guys because everyone else was racing or training for the Kellogg series that year. And I just did this Coolangatta Gold work. I did it with a young kid named Alex Wright who’s a great little competitor and still race as well.

Josh Minogue: And nobody gave me a chance in the world of winning that day. Caine Eckstein had won five of the last six I think at that point. And I’d gotten third, three times twice to him and once to Ali Day. And like I was good, but I just, nobody gave me a shot. I think he was a dollar five favorite and I was, I would’ve been 100 bucks. I’m pretty sure, and I love my old man to death, but I’m pretty sure he had money on Caine that day to win the rice. And that’s not a word of a lie. I think he might have 100 on him to try and make a little bit of money back.

Josh Minogue: And Caine had just done the world record for chin-ups in 24 hours. He’d done like four and a half thousand or no, maybe seven and a half thousand chin-ups. He’d taken that record from Dave Goggins, you know the Instagram, the motivational guy. So he’d just broken the record from Goggins and I think he’d hurt his… well, he hadn’t really been training enough, I don’t think skiing board. And I think he hurt his bicep a little bit early in the race.

Josh Minogue: So we line up and nobody really believed I could win. And I was thinking, Josh will get a second, then, that’ll be a good way to end his career or third and that’ll be a good way to end his career and happy days. And I get off the [inaudible 00:27:33] about maybe seven or eight minutes down on Caine and I just, I got off the [inaudible 00:27:38] and apologize to my handlers and I’m like, “I’m not doing it. Like, I’m sorry this is, I’m so far down, like this is not my day. I’m sorry guys,” like legitimately apologized and just thought, I’m going to finish 13th here at best.

Josh Minogue: And then I got into the swim and I just got a rhythm together. And we spoke about before about different surf swimming. Like I guess the one big difference is you’ve got to get your rating up. And I just decided that I was going to rate up as high as I possibly can and see how many guys I could pull back or how many minutes I could pull back. And in the end, I think I swam five minutes off Caine or something in that swim and I was only two and a bit minutes down.

Josh Minogue: And when I got to the beach, the boys were losing it and they’re like, “Mate, you can get him on the board if you really, really have a go.” And I thought if I could be close to him on the board, I’d be able to out run him. And I still believe that to this day, but we’ve got about halfway through the board and Caine, his bicep had gone and he was floating along and I paddled past him and I think a lot of people got this confused.

Josh Minogue: I said to him, I said, “Jump on mate and we’ll get to the end.” And I think people thought I meant jump on my board and I’ll paddle you to the end. But what I actually meant was jump on my wash and I’ll drag you to the end, because I genuinely didn’t want him to finish out there, if that makes sense. Like I wanted to, if I was going to beat him, and even at that point I wasn’t 100%. I wanted to beat him fair and square and full blown and outrun him kind of thing.

Josh Minogue: So, because he was the best athlete. Well, the best long distance athlete I’d ever seen at that point. And he’d done [inaudible 00:29:17] who won Ironman the year before and had to pull out of that on the run. And I just thought I could outrun him. And he went for a little bit further, but they ended up pulling the pin and I couldn’t believe it. Got to the run and just kept rowing and ended up winning by 10 or 12 minutes in the end.

Josh Minogue: And the final race of my career was probably my best, and I made enough money to get a house deposit and all the problems that I’d had six months earlier kind of disappeared. Like I had people wanting to sponsor me and money for the first time and I was winning races and I was kind of relevant. But I’d promise Kinney that I was never going back and good to my word. I decided that was that and enough was enough and walked away like that.

Josh Minogue: So it was, easily the best I’ve had of racing ever in my entire life and the most memorable, but it probably, it wasn’t memorable for winning. Like that was awesome, but it was memorable because the people that were there and the way it all sort of came about. And if it wasn’t for Kinney, Michael, I would never have lined up in a million years. So I owe him and I will always owe him for doing that for me.

Josh Minogue: So it’s a crazy story for me and I just got really lucky on the final day sort of thing. And we spoke about it before, when I spoke at the start about swimming. I feel like all those results and missing out on the Olympics and all those sort of close ones, I had a little bit of karma on that day. Like, I don’t think I probably deserve to win the gold that day, but I had done a hell of a lot of work and I probably deserved a result in swimming somewhere along the way. And it’s funny how the world works and I finally got a result, but it came eight years later, or sorry, seven years later in an Ironman race rather than a 200 butterfly or a 200 freestyle. So it was good and very proud of it to this day.

Brenton Ford: And so after that, probably one of the highest highs of your life, what was it like then knowing that you weren’t going to compete again in Surf Ironman? Was there a time where you felt a little bit lost because that was what you’ve been doing for such a long time. Where were you at in terms of like mentally and then with the prospects of work and everything? Where were you at?

Josh Minogue: I was on cloud nine for weeks and weeks afterwards. And I just started dating my eventual wife at that point, Tyron. And I was just enjoying life like it was rad. I had such a good period, but it was probably six months later when I was like, I need to find another outlet kind of thing. And there was a big change up in that period. A lot of the boys on the Sunshine Coast moved to the Gold Coast for clubby.

Josh Minogue: So sort of I lost that group of I could go swimming with in the morning or I could go and have a paddle with in the afternoon. And so I decided that I needed another challenge. And I guess triathlon was it and decided to jump on. And I’d always watched Ironman as a kid. I’d watch [inaudible 00:32:33] like everyone and they all tell the same story, like why world of sports. You’d watch it there and you’d see these guys hammer it out and I have very little doubt that it’s the hardest race on the planet.

Josh Minogue: And it’s the hardest race on the planet, not because it’s just physically tough, but it’s so competitive as well. Like you can get guys that age group is and stuff like that who are just animals out there and I just thought, well, I’ll get a bike and see how I go. And I ended up getting through a friend of a friend, getting in contact with the coach, Brett Davidson. And, Box has been so good to me and he guided me through it and I started really slow and I had some hiccups and I was in and out and up and down. But it’s been a fantastic journey.

Josh Minogue: And eventually got to Hawaii in last year. Got to Hawaii last year and it is the greatest day in sport without a shadow of a doubt. And I kind of want it, well, I definitely want to go back in 2020, so that’s the next goal. But triathlon was a savior. I didn’t want to go back to clubbies. I felt like, I’d done, not had done everything I could do, but there was nothing more there that was motivated me at all.

Josh Minogue: And I would have love to win [inaudible 00:33:46], which if people listening don’t know, that’s where you have two board paddlers, two ski paddlers, two swimmers, and it’s probably, it’s the last event of the season at the Australian championships. And so much emotion goes into it and it’s so tough to win. And I think we ended up with maybe four silvers and two bronzes over the years, all to Northcliffe the best club in the world.

Josh Minogue: So, I just wanted to win one of those so bad. And then when the boys broke up and went to different clubs and moved to the Gold Coast, that possibility went out the window as well. So I think it was like, there was no more goals there. And I just thought, well, what’s the next hardest thing I can do? And that’s, punish yourself for nine hours in a triathlon. So it was definitely a wake up call.

Brenton Ford: And it’s funny how you keep coming back to is similar but slightly different sports, but all ones that are very, very physically demanding. But I think that’s like I’ve found that I still primarily swim, but, will get back in a triathlon. But, I’ve done a bit of running and it’s just like, for me, that’s where I find so much enjoyment and I love the feeling of being fit and healthy and, being out in the sun and just like coming from that space, then everything else tends to go well. And it’s, there’s really peace in, in the physical exertion and in those events where it’s incredibly hard. And when I built up and did an Ironman in 2016 and did the [inaudible 00:35:26] one, and I’ve never-

Josh Minogue: Nice.

Brenton Ford: … suffered that hard at the last like-

Josh Minogue: I love it.

Brenton Ford: … 10. Well, it was probably the last like 20Ks of the run, really. But the last 10K is that run. I’ve never been in that space before. And, like at the time it really sucks, but it’s one of those things that sucks at the time, but you look back and go, that was awesome. I’m so glad I did it. And if you can bring that feeling on yourself on a somewhat regular basis, I think that that really makes you feel alive.

Josh Minogue: I think and there’s like, I think it’s Cameron Hanes who’s like the ultra marathon runner and Bob Hunter and stuff and he’s like, there’s two types of fun. It’s the fun that you’re having at the time, but you don’t really remember it. And then there’s fun that like sucks at the time, but you’ll remember it fondly for the rest of your life. And that’s what these sorts of things are. I think they suck at the time, but you’ve got the stories to tell and you’ve got that sense of accomplishment and all those positive like things along the way and you’re spot on.

Josh Minogue: Like I had some really, I guess warped role models as a kid, like, and not warped in a bad way, but guys who were, I looked up to guys like Dean Mercer who go out and train for six hours straight or like some of the like you look at guys like Grant Hackett or those guys who just like to be hard for a long, long time and 200 butterflies, like it’s a stupid event and it hurts and it’s miserable, but like it’s so much better than swimming a 50 freestyle or whatever it is. Like they’re the tough ones.

Josh Minogue: I used to love 200 freestyle because it was all in from the start and it was way more pain than all the other events. And I don’t know, I’ve always been drawn to those sorts of things. So Ironman was a perfect fit. And I guess that’s why I was drawn to the gold as well because the toughest test in surf sports, like it’s four and a half hours and people go, well, four and a half hours, that’s like half of what an Ironman is.

Josh Minogue: But you’re also battling against the elements. Like you could be punching into the wind for three out of those four and a half hours kind of thing, like, and then there’s surf and then there’s the other competitors. And then you’ve got to overcome all the other things that go along with it. Like it’s not easy at all. And that’s what drove me to it. And like you said, it’s those challenges that you really discover, what you’re made of and who you are and that fatigue makes cowards of us all kind of thing.

Josh Minogue: And you’ve just got to figure out whether you, like, whether when you get to that point, there’s really anything there or you just all talk on the start line because there’s so many people that are just all talk on the start line. And when it gets to hour six or seven or eight, are they saying the same thing or are they doing the same thing? And that’s the real revealer of character I guess. And it’s great.

Josh Minogue: It’s Ironman especially because it’s just such a tough day and it’s such a roller coaster, like it’s so up and down like, and for me I think it’s a little bit easier. Normal people just hate the swim at the start. Like for them it’s an hour 15 of absolute misery to start the day. Whereas for me it’s like 45 minutes of the easiest, most clean open water swim you’ll ever have. And you start the race out in front. It’s just so much fun from then on out.

Josh Minogue: And I get passed by a thousand guys on the way through, but it’s, I just love it. Like it’s such an addictive thing and it’s such a tough test. And if you ever go to Hawaii and you watch the race, you understand how important it is to some people and how tough it can be for those guys out there. Guys like Craig Alexandra or [inaudible 00:39:11] or those guys, like they truly are some of the best athletes on the planet by none because they mightn’t be the strongest or the fastest, but they suffer the longest. And I think that’s something that is overlooked. And it’s something that draws me in every time.

Brenton Ford: And like they make it look so easy. Like you look at [inaudible 00:39:31] makes it look so easy and you think, well, okay, it’s another day out for him. But inside he’s gotta be suffering so hard to be able to hold that speed for that long and to be able to do it so consistently as well. Like he’s just incredible, especially over the last few years. Look at how far ahead he is of the rest of the field. Like it’s just, it’s a real-

Josh Minogue: And that-

Brenton Ford: Sorry. You go.

Josh Minogue: Sorry. And there’s some guys in different sports that make it seem that way. Like Phelps is the same and Grant Hackett was one. Like you watch him swimming in Athens in 2004 and he just looked so good the whole way through. He makes it look so comfortable and then he gets out and he almost collapses when he stands up on the block. And like Crowley was another one of those in triathlon and there’s guys like Shannon Eckstein and Surf Ironman and they’re the guys that, like it hurts them but they just don’t care.

Josh Minogue: Like there’s a goal that’s more important than the fact that it hurts. And a few people have said to me in the past like, pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. And that’s the attitude. Like they don’t suffer. They’re in pain but they’re not suffering. Whereas people like me or your regulars, like we suffer through the last couple of hours and I think that makes it worse. Whereas they’re in pain, they understand it and they just move on. And I think that’s a part of being a professional athlete that is overlooked, the ability to just deal with it and get the job done anyway.

Brenton Ford: And over the next five years or so, what would you like to not necessarily be doing, but how would you like to be helping the guys that you’re working with and competing like the sport that you’re doing at the moment? So what are you working towards and what are some of those challenges that you want to continue to face?

Josh Minogue: I guess going back to Hawaii is a big one. Like I went there and got humbled pretty badly kind of thing. I swam really well off the front. I think I swam 47 high on the swim and rode really well and then ended up just a walking zombie in the run. So personally that’s the big goal is to get back to Hawaii and just put in a better day than that. Like, I don’t think I’ll ever be a professional triathlete or anything like that, but if I can put in a strong sub nine hour or something like that, that’d be pretty rad.

Josh Minogue: And then on the work front, I’d love to coach guys that go to the highest level and I’d love to coach Kellogg’s Iron women or Ironman and help them achieve their dream. But it’s probably not the focus for me. It’s probably helping each kid when they come through, figure out what they want to get out of the sport and then helping them get to that point. It’s everyone wants to be on TV and everybody wants to do all those things, but for some kids it’s like, hey, I just want to be the third person in the board relay or I want to get to the state final or I want to go from not being able to get out around the cans and back in.

Josh Minogue: And it’s definitely not as glamorous as being the coach who has the guy who wins, but it’s certainly just as fulfilling. So for me, I’ve got some great kids who can definitely make it at the top level if they choose to. And I will be there and support them 100% of the entire way. But I’m more about finding out what each kid wants and helping them get there and helping them overcome challenges and challenges that are away from the beach as much as the ones that are on the beach.

Josh Minogue: Because kids have a tough time and these kids are a great young kids, but they also have to deal with school and friendship groups and social media and all those sorts of things. So if I can be one of the positive outlets in their life and have an impact like some of the coaches had on my life. I still ring both Ronnie and Kinney all the time and ask for advice about everything except surf and swimming kind of thing. I still talk to them and like about life and all these sorts of things.

Josh Minogue: And I just hope one day that, I guess that’s my goal over the next five years is I can have relationships with these kids where they feel like they can ring me and ask for advice and if they need help, call and not be afraid to ring and say, hey, I made a mistake. What should I do? Because that’s more important than gold, silver and bronze. At the end of the day, these kids are, some of them will be champions, I have no doubt about that. But a lot of them won’t be.

Josh Minogue: And it’s probably more important that I have a positive impact on their life rather than helping them paddle out around three cans of back to the beach super fast because I don’t know, when they’re 60 or 70 whether that’ll be all that important on their list or whether it’s how you helped me through that tough time and that’s probably the big one for me.

Brenton Ford: I think that’s a really good goals of coaches. And it’s a sign of a coach where the athlete can come to you and talk about things, challenges they might be having in their life and teaching those life skills that they may not be getting at home. They may not be getting at school, that’s [inaudible 00:44:45].

Josh Minogue: But maybe they are getting them at home, but a lot of the time they just don’t listen to their parents. Like I’m not saying my message is any different to their parents, but sometimes it’s just got to come from a different source and mum and dad, like it happens all the time. You’re too close to, or the kids are too close and they feel like they can lash out and say like, hey, like no matter what I say to you, I know you’re going to love me, so they take it out on their parents.

Josh Minogue: Whereas if it comes from a coach or a teacher or a family friend, they tend to listen a little bit more and it doesn’t get drowned out in the wash of, hey, get ready for school and all these other things. And that’s probably the big one for me is like, I don’t know any more than parents do, but sometimes it’s just a different voice that has a bigger impact.

Brenton Ford: I was contacted by parents, this week actually, and she said, “Look, our daughter, she’s having trouble. Like when she gets to the race on the blocks, like she just counts herself out. She looks at the other competitors and then just overthinks it and thinks she’s not good enough.” And she said like, “Myself, my husband have been trying to like, talk her through it and give her some things to help.”

Brenton Ford: But like just knowing what it’s like, they’re not going to listen to their parents no matter how good athlete they were or how good a coach they might be. It’s like, it’s got to come from someone else. And I think that lesson has gotta be learned in the doing, it’s not going to necessarily come from what someone says.

Josh Minogue: [inaudible 00:46:18].

Brenton Ford: And I said, “Look, we’ll be better off doing some sessions and some training sessions and just get her to build up that confidence in the pool first and then she can translate that into the races.” And it’s good to know like that’s what the real benefit of being a coach is or how you can really help people. Because as you said, looking back in even like five, 10 years, how fast that person goes or how fastest from it goes for 100 meters, probably not going to make a big difference in this grand scheme of their life. But it’s the other stuff around it.

Josh Minogue: And I learned that from like Ron McKeon is a perfect example. He had his daughter, Emma just missed the Olympics as a 14 year old, and when she got a little bit older he told her that she had to go and get another coach because the relationship wasn’t working. And not the relationship had broken down, but you need someone other than dad telling you there, hey, you need to swim this and do that. You need dad as well as coach.

Josh Minogue: And he and Emma went off to Brisbane and grew as an athlete and their relationship is fantastic. And like it showed me and she won the most Olympic medals in Rio of any Australian and he was good enough to know that, hey, her needs come before mine and as dad, I need to let her go. And he’s was the Australian open water head coach at that point. So you know he’s a fantastic coach and all that and could have got her those metals as well. But sometimes that second voice is just so much more important or equally important in reinforcing those messages.

Brenton Ford: And like my dad was my coach growing up, but until 18 and-

Josh Minogue: How did that go?

Brenton Ford: Well, it was really good because he, like when we got home, there was never any talk at the dinner table like-

Josh Minogue: Perfect.

Brenton Ford: … you didn’t push hard enough in that set or like there was none of that. And so that’s what made that relationship work.

Josh Minogue: Good.

Brenton Ford: And I mean, I was never at that level where I was kind of just off Australian open qualifying times. So there wasn’t that need to go elsewhere. But had it like I’ve seen parents who coach their kids who will take it home and take it to the dinner table and it just doesn’t last because that’s not what you want from a parent. I heard a guy, Ben, I think it’s Ben Crown. He works with the Richmond Tigers and he was being interviewed on SEN and talking to Gary Lyon and someone else.

Brenton Ford: And one of the things that he said about being a parent is, “All you really need to say is to your kid is, ‘I love watching you swim or I love watching you play footy.’ It’s not, I love watching you get that gold medal or I love watching your swim fastest. I just, I love watching you do whatever it is that you do.” And I think that’s such a good and simple message because the kid takes that and go, mom and dad loves watching me play footie. Like that’s all it needs to be. And that’s the best way you can support your kids.

Josh Minogue: And I think that needs to be the first message. And I’m not saying don’t tell your kid, hey, you could have done this a little bit better or whatever, but as long as that’s not the first message. The first message is, hey, I’m proud of you. Hey, you did a really good job. It was fantastic. And then when the kid knows, they’re probably more accepting of any advice you’ve got to give kind of thing.

Josh Minogue: And whereas if it’s just, hey, you missed that goal or you were slow over the third 50 or whatever it is, that’s when it becomes, hey, I’ve got two coaches here and I’m not looking for two coaches. I’m looking for a coach and a mom and dad, not somewhere. And it seems like you and your all man had that perfectly like coach on pool deck and then when you get home it’s dad and that’s what it’s all about. Like that’s the good balance that you need to have.

Josh Minogue: And most of the parents that I’ve got a fantastic like that, they’re really, really good. They understand and it’s been really, really refreshing because you hear horror stories about, kids sport parents. But I’m really lucky in that sense that they let me be coach and for the majority, their mom and dad, which is fantastic and everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day. They just want their kids to be successful and they want them to be happy. Like that’s the most important thing out of all of them. And if I could up finishing up here with all my kids enjoying it and happy and having fun, then I’ve done my job. And if we win some stuff along the way, that’s pretty cool too.

Brenton Ford: Mate, it’s been great chatting to you. And, for those people that are listening, you have your own podcast which is based around [inaudible 00:51:09]. You sell yourself too short.

Josh Minogue: [inaudible 00:51:11].

Brenton Ford: You’re too kind. But it’s called Around the Cans. So do you want to talk a little bit about that. And for anyone who’s interested in surf clubs and that kind of thing, what’s the best way to find it and how’d that all come about?

Josh Minogue: So my best mate, Jack Hansen, who is possibly one of the best coaches in the country, or he’s one of the best coaches in the country in Surf lifesaving, one of the best youth coaches, that’s for sure. He has a connection with kids and he’s unbelievable. We’re best mates and we love Surf lifesaving. So we just put out a weekly podcast about Surf lifesaving. It’s pretty hardcore surf, but we just have a bit of fun with it. Nothing too serious. And it’s pretty low key.

Josh Minogue: We talked to some former competitors as well. We’ve had the likes of, Guy Leech on before talking about what the sport was like in the ’80s, and what it’s like to be one of the most famous sportsman in the country and end up going on Baywatch and all those sorts of things. So we just have a bit of fun with it. And it’s called Around the Cans. You can get it at all places where good podcasts are provided. So jump on and have a listen and give us some feedback and we love it. So it’s not the world’s greatest podcast, that’s for sure, but do our best.

Brenton Ford: Well, that’s a good approach where you’re always looking to improve. But I think, the way you undersell yourself with your level of sport, and I imagine it’s the same with your podcast. So mate, I appreciate you being on the podcast and I’m looking forward to catching up next time I come up your way.

Josh Minogue: Beautiful Sunshine Coast, mate. You’re always welcome, that’s for sure. Thanks for having me on. And, if anyone’s ever got any questions, just jump on the gram and hit me up and hopefully I can answer anything anyone has or if they want to give me some feedback, I’d really appreciate it.

Brenton Ford: And we’ll put all those links at the bottom of the show notes and people can find you there. And what’s your Instagram handle?

Josh Minogue: @joshyminogue. So Joshy with a Y in there and not Kylie. So similar spelling, but [inaudible 00:53:13].

Brenton Ford: Close enough.

Josh Minogue: Lovely.

Brenton Ford: Thanks mate.

Josh Minogue: Thank you so much.

We always sort of talk about being disappointed but not being disheartened and trying to sort of move on from your failures and see them as a challenge to come back and improve for next time. So I do my best but it’s no easy task. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast, to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford.

My guest today is Josh Mnogh and in 2008 Josh was at the Australian Olympic trials, wanting to make the Olympic team that would travel across to London and compete in a number of events there. And on the week of the trials, Josh became sick and so he wasn’t able to compete at the level that he was hoping to and was expected to. And after multiple years of dedicating himself to the sport, to his training and putting in the effort that was required to get there, he unfortunately wasn’t able to make the team. And so after that Josh turned to surf lifesaving or surf iron men and he managed to qualify and compete on the Nutri-Grain series which is the highest level of the sport here in Australia and which is which is televised and it’s really well known across the country and is able to compete at that very top level. But he was never never really able to quite make a breakthrough to be able to win races.

He was always just a little bit below and disheartened by that, Josh became frustrated with the sport and in 2014 he was ready to give it up. And when he was about to throw in the towel after he’d said he’d thrown in the towel, his coach begged him to give it one more try. And his coach wanted him to compete at the Cool and Gattagold one more time. And this is the longest surf iron man race in Australia. It’s probably the most well known one and it’s been won by a number of really well known surf lifesavers and it’s probably the toughest event that you can get in surf lifesaving. And Josh eventually came back to the sport after his coach had begged him and his coach said to him, look, I’ll never ask you to come back, I’ll never ask you to compete again. If you just give this race one more chance. And Josh had previously come third in that event four times but was never able to win it. And in 2014 the stars aligned and

it all came together for him where he was able to win that race. And this episode is about being patient and how patients can pay off. And Josh talks about his experience going through the highs and the lows of sport and where he felt like he was never quite at that top level. But where he persisted, he was able to get that big win. And had he not gone through those ups and downs through his career, he probably could never have got to winning that Cool and get a gold in 2014. And now Josh describes him, he’s now doing triathlon and described himself as a hack triathlete but he’s a very, very good triathlete, has qualified and competed in Kona at the Iron Man World Championships. And we also talk a bit about that. And Josh’s strength really is the swim leg. He’s won a 47 minute swim in Kona this year and is always in that front pack. Now let’s get into the episode now. So Josh, we used to race each other

back in the day. And I think it was at Hobart Aquatic Center.

Yeah, I was like 12 or 13. I remember we might have raced against each other in a final there or something. And I just remember sort of seeing you afterwards. And I think he might have been done. And I was done. And we were playing in the kids pool for a while, like mucking around. And I think, and you’re really at a pretty high level then. And I was kind of afraid to talk. Well, I think you’re a sub two minute freestyle. And I was hovering just above. And so if you’re quicker than two minutes for the 200, you’re a big deal. And so I was probably a bit too afraid to say anything. But I made a mind, Simon Hearn saw some of his posts on the weekend and saw that you raced at the same race. And I thought you’d be a good guest to get on with your background in swimming in surf Ironman and now getting into triathlon. So so do you want to just talk a little bit about your background in swimming to start with? And

it probably feels like a long time ago. But and I mean, we look back and see as it goes fast. But I mean, you’re you’re at a very top level for for quite a few years there. Do you want to share sort of what that what that was? Yeah, well, thanks for having me on first and foremost. But yeah, I was not a bad junior swimmer coming through. I sort of was at the Australian final, won a couple of Australian junior titles. I saw a bit of freestyle and a bit of butterfly and got picked on a couple of Australian junior teams when I was a little bit older, like 17 or 16, 17, 18. So I had a good run there. But I sort of after 18, I never really kicked on to like the goals, obviously, the Olympics when you’re when you’re a swimmer and a swimmer in Australia. And I got to the point where I was sort of fourth and fifth in the country over 200 butterfly and and trying to make those finals in 200 freestyle. So top 10 or pushing on the top 10. But I sort of never really pushed

on and had some a couple of really good years in around 2006, 2007 and then 2008 at the Olympic trials came and I made a change to go to Sydney out of Wollongong, because I was at Wollongong originally with Ron McKeon and you know, McKeon as in Emma and David who are currently on the Australian team. And I trained with Ron my entire life growing up and sort of made a move and thought I needed some training partners to push me on. And it just never sort of happened. So I got to those 2008 Olympic trials and I probably wasn’t good enough to get on the team anyway, but I ended up crook as a dog the week before and sort of finished with just finals and semifinals, but never sort of

got to that level. And I swam with a lot of really good guys. I swam against Michael Phelps in 200 butterfly mid 2006 when he was at his absolute peak of his power. And I’ve got that story I can always sort of talk about and I’m pretty lucky to have that one. So that’s my swimming claim to fame. And I guess like so many, it’s I guess the story of what could have been if I’d probably not made better decisions, but just sort of taken the path a little bit easier. I sort of got white line fever when I was 14 or 15 and sort of thought I could go to the games and went all in on it. And yeah, it’s just it’s funny how the world works, but I wouldn’t really change my path for anything because I learn a bunch of really good lessons. And there’s a lot of a lot of good things you learn out of sort of being disappointed early on in your life. And your learns have sort of overcome that. And it’s not the end of the world

if you don’t achieve your dream. And I’m pretty lucky to have had that lesson at the age of sort of 19. And yeah, as I said before, I definitely wouldn’t change it. Although going to the Olympics would be fantastic. It sort of set in motion a bunch of things that have gotten me to where I am today. And I’ve got a family and a wonderful life up here because of it. And I don’t know what would have happened if I had to go into the games. But I’m yeah, I’m pretty content with the way it’s turned out now. Yeah. And taking those those lessons early on as well and coaching as you do now, how do you convey that to the athletes that you coach? Yeah, I’m lucky to coach it at Sunshine Beach Surf Club up on the Sunshine Coast now. So I guess it’s hard to tell kids about disappointment. And I guess you and I would be the same. You hear it when you’re young and you don’t really believe it. You don’t believe it. You think, oh, how can

losing be good for me? How can disappointment be good for me? And it’s probably something that I try and tell the parents as much as the kids that they don’t get disheartened when they’re kid or when their child comes forth or when they miss the final or when they get second. It’s these losses are good for them in the long run. It teaches them humility and it teaches them to learn from mistakes and to analyze their races. Because if they’re just always winning, it just doesn’t help. It just doesn’t create a good personality, I guess, or a good mindset. And it tends to be the ones that win all through teenage years that when they do finally come up against a challenge, then that’s when they sort of they find out and what they’re really made of. And when it’s not so easy. Yeah, it really sort of opens up their character. And I guess I try to impart that on the kids, but it’s really tough when you got 13 and 14 and 15

year olds who commit everything to a to a goal and they don’t get it and how they can see it as a positive in the long run. And we always sort of talk about being being disappointed, but not being disheartened and and trying to sort of move on from your failures and and see them as a challenge to come back and improve for next time. So I do my best, but it’s no easy task. I’ve got a lot of I got a new appreciation for all the swim coaches I had back in the day and surf coaches when I started coaching as well. It’s not an easy gig.

No, it’s it is a it is a good gig, though. Like I I’m really glad that I went into this this line of work and like you get to work with get to work with great people and you get to hopefully impart some some of the knowledge that you’ve picked up along the way. And it’s kind of like it’s just there’s so many different

moves that you can you can use and so many different things that you can say or directions you can steer the athletes that you coach. But it’s kind of it’s a way to be creative as well. Like you get to kind of yeah, just just figure things figure things out and and try and see what’s going to work best for each person. And it’s I really like that that creativity of it where you can you can have your own style and yeah and like continually learning like I I think back to when I first started coaching about 12 years ago and geez I was such a rookie then and even now like there’s times where I think geez I’ve got so much to learn. But it’s like as soon as you stop learning I think that’s probably when you you should stop coaching and like what have you found what do you found to be the difference between being an athlete and then being a coach and having to be on the other side of the fence. I think that being the athlete is is simpler like you and I was always somebody

who really trusted in my coaches and that was important for me. I trusted in them wholly and there was it was an unwavering sort of trust and I think late in my career probably that went out the window when I left Ron and that was the big thing for me is that I trusted them completely and I knew that if they told me to swim 100-100 I knew it was good for me so I’d do it with everything I had and I just think if you don’t have that trust and and it’s just not going to work and that’s probably been the toughest thing is developing that trust with the athletes where they know that if they listen to you and they commit wholeheartedly you’re committed as well and and you’ll get a result in the end and it might not be the result you’re looking for but it’ll be a result and that’s probably been the the well the toughest thing or the biggest difference I guess between the two is I’m the one making the decisions and I’m the one

who’s sort of having to think it through whereas as an athlete you you sort of get I guess it’s not laziness but you sort of just fall into that okay I’m going to believe in them I’m going to do the hard work and we’ll we’ll come out on the end where the other way around now is it’s not so much the physical hard work it’s probably the mental side of it in terms of planning and making sure that the path that you’re going down is the correct one and and that’s probably the big thing I’ve struggled with starting off coaching is just um knowing or trusting in your yourself and your own plan and and your um and your and having different plans for different people who have different personalities and different skill sets and that’s been the big one is is keeping the faith when it gets tough or when it doesn’t seem like it’s working or when you might get a couple of bad results in a row that’s really been the the hard one so far and

and something I’m having to learn to deal with and I’ve been lucky to have some great coaches in my life some really really fantastic coaches both in swimming and in surf and now in triathlon as well so I just continually try and learn I’ve no doubt in the world that I’m not the best coach going around um but I’m one who’s willing to work the hardest and one who will listen and I guess steal from other coaches and learn and grow and adapt and and not just be set in my ways so that’s probably one area that I’ve I’ve really enjoyed coaching is stealing from people and and seeing how they do it at different surf clubs or different swim coaches or different coaches from other sports and stuff just stealing from them and trying to adapt that into our own program so it’s definitely not an easy gig that’s that’s for sure but it’s one that’s fulfilling and worthwhile when you have those kids trust in you and commit to you fully and you get to

commit back and and chase her I guess chase a mutual goal and are you enjoying the combination of of training doing the triathlons now and and also being able to coach you find that if you’re continuing to work for something that it helps you with your coaching yeah and it keeps me sane as well I don’t think I could go into no exercise and stuff like that and and I guess it keeps it a little bit real for me as well like I always say to the kids I’d never set them something that I wouldn’t be able to do myself or that I wouldn’t do myself so there’s that element of keeping it real like if I if we do a run or if we do um a set in the surf if I go oh geez I’d never do that or I couldn’t do that then it’s not really appropriate and I think sometimes if you’re too far out of the sport or too far removed you just forget what it really takes and what it’s like and and that so I sort of stay in the water a little

bit and I make sure that I’m there doing a couple sessions as well on the outside because if I can’t do it then there’s no way that they they’re going to be able to do it or if I struggle to then some of them probably will but the majority will just walk away so yeah I enjoy doing that triathlon element and it’s just a personal goal thing as well like I think everybody’s got to have goals and challenges and that’s a big one for me is um there’s challenges sort of professionally and in terms of relationships and away from sport but I’ve always got to have like a sporting goal as well to chase and it seems like I’ve just got a really silly one at the moment with this whole Ironman thing and I’m loving it but um it’s definitely not easy yeah and it’s uh that’s what I found like I’ve done is a season of triathlon and I’m just about to get back into it and I enjoyed the like trying something new like the the running I’d always sort of run a bit but

or the biking I still suck at and I’ve got to get a lot better at and um like but it is it is good doing something new and being challenged that way because firstly the the improvement that you can make can be so dramatic and when you’re at the that higher end of the or the top end of the the field like especially if you were swimming and surf Ironman like it’s the the improvements are so marginal but when you’re trying something new you really get those those big gains and that can be quite quite fun and I think that the like the sanity aspect of it too like it gives you something to really just dial your focus into and and also the the physical side of it where like if I’m physically fit mentally I’m I’m I’m the same as well but if I’m mentally fit and then physically not doing anything like it’s they the physical for me often comes comes first I find like forget that right the rest falls into place yeah oh it keeps me out of

trouble oh I say like if if I’m if I’m riding a couple hours in the morning and and running in the afternoon or swimming or whatever it is then I’m not going to go and have six beers after work on a Friday afternoon kind of thing like I’m going to go home and do a session and go to bed and you spot on I there’s something to be said about challenges that are hard and that really test you and and there’s a lot to be said about doing something completely out of your comfort zone and sort of similar to you while swimming while they’ve got the same name like Ironman and and surf Ironman they’re just so different I found riding the bike so difficult and well difficult to get fast on and and that’s been sort of the best part for me that it’s such a challenge and it’s not easy because I don’t think I think if you get caught doing easy things you just take soft options everywhere in your life and I guess it’s one of the big things I push on the kids is

the way you do one thing is the way you do everything and if you’re willing to accept a big challenge in one area of your life you’re probably willing to do it in other areas and

and if you’re working hard sort of in the fitness area and you’re keeping yourself in a good place then I guess you’re doing the same mentally and at work and and with your family and stuff like that as well and it’s it sounds really airy fairy but I just feel like it works like if you can find a challenge that you’re willing to overcome yeah in the sporting arena I bet you’ll look for challenges in terms of your professional career and in terms of other areas and and that’ll make for a more fulfilling sort of life and yeah it’s something that I’ve sort of only embraced the last couple of years I was always happy to um in clubbies like to do the same things over and over in the same sort of um I guess the same races and and guys that I knew I’d beat or guys that I knew I’d sort of I could race against and now it’s like well I want to take on the best in the business and even if I get smacked up at least I’ve accepted

the challenge and I can come back next year and see just how much better I can be yeah I completely agree with that like you focus in on on one aspect or you get you challenge yourself in one aspect and that plays out to the other areas of your life like say you’ve got 10 things sort of 10 areas of your life that um that are happening let’s say two of those are going well eight of those aren’t going well if you focus in on those two that are going well I find that that that will then transfer across to those other aspects of it and so um the same thing goes with like yeah but challenging yourself and um and going about it that way and I mean what was your what was your transition from swimming to to surf iron man like and was there like in terms of your actual swimming like what did you have to uh is was there much I had to sort of change there with like with the stroke with how you trained yeah how’d that go well I yeah so in after the 2008

Olympic trials I think that was in May um I didn’t know what to do I moved home from Sydney to Wollongong was living with mum and dad trying to get uni finished and um I’d always wanted to do I’d always gone to the Aussie titles in terms of surf but I’d just done the surf race or I’d go around in the Iron Man and kind of get knocked out in the semi or something because I wasn’t wasn’t doing any scale board work so I then when I got home my old man said to me I do you want to do the cool and go to gold it’s on in six months and it’ll give you something to train for and it’s and I could sort of get round reasonably but I wasn’t very good so I got home and decided well yeah okay I’ll do that and got a job at home and and just sort of started training towards that and I had no idea and was training on my own and sort of didn’t really um know what was up at all and I just sort of do long sessions I just paddle as hard as I

could as long as I could and then there was a couple of groups around town um in terms of like board and ski there was some guys like um David Smith who won the Olympic gold medal for kayaking and he was a really good swimmer when we were young as well actually and Hayden White and Ali Day and those sorts of guys were training so I jumped in with them on ski and board and then swimming I went back to to Ron at um at Wollongong there and I didn’t really have to change that much like I’d done a lot of surf swimming as a kid so it came really naturally like I just spent all day every day in surf and it wasn’t a big deal and there are differences in terms of your stroke and stuff like that but for me it was always in built and I guess it’s hard when I see a lot of the guys maybe you’re coaching in that that are coming to surf swimming or open water swimming late in their life and it’s just such a foreign environment for them they I know they feel like

I’m getting dragged under or I’m gonna drown or I can’t get a clean stroke whereas for me it was always I wear surf swimming now I’m just gonna surf swim and and that was something I was lucky to have like I grew up at the beach we’d spend every day of every we’d just spend every day at the beach like I’d go swimming training I’d come home from school go to the beach for half an hour and body surf and then get in the car and go swimming training at 430 kind of thing like I was just another part of life so it just came really easily in terms of that swimming but it was the other elements the board and ski that really sort of made me struggle and and that had an effect on my swimming as well because it’s not it’s sort of different muscle groups and that affects your swim and I always found out through found through my clubby career when I was racing in a Kellogg series or when I was training for the cool and go to gold or

the Aussie titles that if my ski paddling was going really well my swimming it sort of struggle a little bit so I had to be really conscious of sort of letting that go and understanding that well yeah my swim’s not fantastic at the moment but it’s good enough and my ski’s going a little bit better or my board’s going well and I sort of had to take a backward step and just let my swimming go for a little bit and and not go as in disappear but when you go from swimming 10 11 sessions a week back to five or six sessions a week you’ve naturally got that drop off and you sort of have to find the level again and and it levels itself out after sort of 12 months and and you figure out that okay I’m this is where I’m at now and you sort of I guess you reset your PB’s and what you want to hold at training and what’s acceptable and and then you go again and you try and build that back up off five or six sessions a week rather than

10 or 12 like I went from trying to swim sub 350 for 400 to just being happy to go hey I’m going to go four minutes or 405 kind of thing and that’s all 355 and that’s good enough kind of thing and that’s all you sort of need to be able to swim at the top level to to be effective so it was kind of just a big reset going back into clubbies and and then I moved from like I went to the Sunshine Coast for a training camp to train with Michael King at the Malulba club and I remember ringing dad about two days in and I said look I’m not coming back and he sort of laughed at me and said what do you mean I said oh actually I’m going to drive home pack my car up and then drive back to the Sunshine Coast and just move up here and and he was really supportive and stuff and he said look you’re only 19 like give yourself two or three years and see if you can and chase this dream and it always sort of been a little dream of mine

when I was a kid to be an Iron Man like I’d looked up to him as a kid and watched the likes of Darren Mercer roll around and and Michael King and Reese Rurie and and Phil Clayton and those courts sorts of guys that were famous and they were making money and they were going to the beach every day and I decided if I wasn’t going to chase that Olympic swimming dream that I was just going to give it a go on the Sunshine Coast and see if I could become an Iron Man and I got really lucky to move into the Sunshine Coast with a bunch of good young up and coming guys like Matt Pool and and Jack Hansen and there was Gemma Newbig in here and and a bunch of other sort of good Kam Cole and a bunch of other sort of good up and coming Iron Man that were sort of 1921 and we all moved in here together and and I guess the rest is history for us like most of those guys went on to be in the Iron Man series for a long time some of them still are

we had the likes of Ali Day, Matt Bevelac were Hayden White, Kendrick Louis move in, we had you name it they all went through Maloula Bar at one point we were probably the strongest if not second strongest Iron Man group in the country and I just got so lucky to find a coach like Kingi and a group like that to look after me as a 19 year old and yeah they’re still my mates now I still they’re in my bridal party when I got married earlier this year and they’re still some of the best in the business like Pool is leading the Iron Man series and we lived together for eight years and I think I moved out and he became a whole lot better so maybe I’m a bad influence on him and you are I remember hearing that you were about to give up the the surf Iron Man and then you coach Kingi said you should give the cool and go to gold another crack because you’d come third four times yeah I three I so I’d sort of I was in the series for six years in the end or yeah I think I had six years in the series and

I’d have a good year and a bad year and I’d be injured and I’d be up and down and it was just became really draining on me and I had some really good results where I got some some good race results for me kind of thing against some great competition like I had some sprints up the beach with Shannon next time for thirds and fourths and I went to Perth and won a couple big races over there and I did I was good but I was never sort of top level contender for the overall series I could get a race off here and there and be competitive but and I got towards the end well I got towards my 30s and I just wasn’t making enough money I was I was really poor and I was making enough to get by and and thought I’ll get a real job and ended up becoming a sports journalist on the Sunshine Coast and then every year well every couple of years I’d have to go back to the Kellogg’s trial they’d be automatic qualifiers from the year before

let’s say top six and if you fell outside of that you had to go back to a trial and you train or winter and get yourself ready for one day where if you finished in the top 10 you’d get in and if you missed out you have to wait 12 more months to go back and by then I was just over going to the trial I’d finish like 7th or 8th or 9th every year and I’d have to go back to this trial year on year on year and get in and I just I was over it and got to the trial in September of it must have been 2013 no 2014 yeah 2014 and got to the trial and was doing really well and had trained really hard and was out in front by a mile in the first race and it was three races and basically all you had to do was sort of get two good results and and then you could have one shocker and it’d be enough to get through like it wasn’t brutal but I first race mile out in front I got smacked by a wave and my ski went about 100 meters up in

the air and I remember when I pop back up I could see it still going up in the air and it was it came down into about a thousand pieces and washed into the beach and and so I was out and got no points in that first race which meant there was no chance I was getting through and I decided I was done at that point I wasn’t there was nothing you could tell me nothing you convinced me to make me ever do another Ironman race again I was just so over it like I had no money I was yeah I was working a full-time job I was training outside of that so I’d get up at 4 30 and then wouldn’t get home until about 9 30 or 8 30 at night and do that sort of five days a week and I was just done um and so I just drank for I legitimately just drank for about two weeks and like partied and sort of went out every night and had an absolute blast it was so much fun but

but about two weeks later Kingie rang me and he’s as close to a father figure as I’ve had outside my dad along with Ronnie McKay and sort of thing and he rang me he’s like I can’t see you do this to yourself like you’ve done and I was in good form like I was in as good a form as I’d ever been in my whole entire life and it was just really bad luck to cop on on the chest and sort of end my trial like I would have just rolled through the trial and got in no stress at all the guy who ended up winning the trial was training with us day in day out and I was as good if not better than he was so I know I would have got through if it wasn’t for that wave and so he just said to me look mate I can’t see you do this to yourself like do one can you please do this gold for me we’ve got it might have been eight weeks he’s like we’ve got eight weeks to prepare please please please and I just kept saying no and then in the end I

made him a deal that if I said yes this one last time he’d never asked me again to go and train or to go and race and we were done and we agreed to it and I went back to training the next day and did eight weeks with one or two other guys because everyone else was racing for well training for the Kellogg series that year and and I just did this cool and got a go at work I did it with a young kid named Alex Wright who’s a great little competitor and still race as well and nobody gave me a chance in the world of winning that day K-next I won five uh five of the last six I think at that point and I’d gotten third um three times twice to him and once to Ali Day and like I was good but I just nobody gave me a shot I think he was a dollar five favorite and I was I would have been a hundred bucks I’m pretty sure and I love my old man to death but I’m pretty sure he had money on Kane that day to win to win the race and

that’s not a word of a lie I think he might add a hundred on him to try and make a little bit of money back um and he just Kane had just done the um the world record of for chin ups in 24 hours he’d done like four and a half thousand oh no maybe seven and a half thousand chin ups he’d taken that record from Dave Goggins you know the Instagram yeah the the motivational guy so he’d just broken the record from Goggins and I think he’d hurt his well he hadn’t really been training enough I don’t think skiing board and I think he hurt his bicep a little bit early in the race so we line up and nobody really believed I could win they were sort of thinking oh Josh you’ll get a second and um that’ll be a good way to end his career or a third and that’ll be a good way to end his career and happy days um and I get off the ski about maybe seven or eight minutes down on Kane and I just I got off the ski and apologized to my

handleism we’re like I’m not I’m not doing like I’m sorry this is I’m so far down like this is not my day like um yeah I’m sorry guys like legitimately apologized and just thought oh I’m gonna finish 13th here at best um and then I got into the swim and I just got a rhythm together and you know we spoke about before about different surf swimming like I guess the one big difference is you’ve got to get your rating up and I just decided that I was going to rate up as high as I possibly can and and see how many guys I could pull back or how many minutes I could pull back and in the end I think I swam five minutes off Kane or something in that swim and I was only two and a bit minutes down and when I got to the beach the boys were sort of losing it and they’re like mate you can get him on the board if you really really have a go and I thought if I could be close to him on the board I’d be able to outrun him and I still believe that to this day but

we got about halfway through the board and Kane um his bicep had gone and he was sort of floating along and I paddled past him and um and I think a lot of people got this confused I sort of said to him I said jump on mate we’ll get to the end and I think people thought I meant jump on my board and I’ll paddle you to the end but what I actually meant was jump on my wash and I’ll drag you to the end because I genuinely didn’t want him to finish out there if that makes sense like I wanted to if I was going to beat him and even at that point it wasn’t 100% I wanted to beat him fair and square and full blown and outrun him kind of thing so um because he was the best athlete I’d well the best long distance athlete I’d ever seen at that point and he’d done Kona Hawaii and I’m in the year before and had to pull out of that on the run and I just thought I could outrun him and he sort of went for a little bit further but they ended up pulling

the pin and and I couldn’t believe it got to the run and just kept rolling and ended up winning by 10 or 12 minutes in the end and um and the final race of my career was probably my best and I made enough money to get a house deposit and all the problems that um that I’d had sort of six months earlier kind of disappeared like I had people sort of wanting to sponsor me and um and money for the first time and I was winning races and I was kind of relevant and but I’d promised Kingie that I was never going back and good to my word um I decided that was that and enough was enough and walked away like that so it was yeah easily the best day I’ve had of racing ever in my entire life and the most memorable but it probably it wasn’t memorable for winning like that was awesome but it was memorable because the people that were there and and the way it all sort of came about and if it wasn’t for if it wasn’t for Kingie Michael um I would have

would never have lined up in a million years so I owe him and I will always owe him for for doing that for me so yeah it’s it’s a crazy story for me and and yeah it’s I just got really lucky on the final day sort of thing and we spoke about before or when I spoke at the start about swimming I feel like all those results and missing out on the Olympics and all those sort of close ones I all sort of had a little bit of calmer on that day like I don’t think I probably deserved to win the gold that day but I’ve done a hell of a lot of work and I probably deserved a result in swimming somewhere along the way and it’s funny how the world works and and I finally got a result but it came eight years later um or sorry seven years later um yeah in an Ironman race rather than a 200 butterfly or a 200 freestyle so yeah it was good and very proud of it to this day and so after after that probably the one of the highest highs of

your your life what was it like then knowing that you weren’t going to compete compete again in surf iron man were you was there a time where you felt a little bit lost because that was you know what you’ve been doing for such a long time yeah where were you at in terms of uh like mentally and then sort of um with the prospects of of work and everything where were you at yeah and I was on like I was on cloud nine for weeks and weeks afterwards and um I just started dating my eventual wife at that point Taryn and we I was just enjoying life like it was rad I had such a good period but it was probably six months later when I was like oh I need to find another outlet kind of thing and there was a big change up in that period um a lot of the boys on the Sunshine Coast moved to the Gold Coast for clubbies so I sort of lost that group of I could go swimming within the morning or I could go and have a paddle within the afternoon and

so I decided that I needed another challenge and um and I guess triathlon was it and decided to jump on and um and I’d always sort of watched Ironman as a kid I’d watch Kona like everyone and they all tell the same story like wild world of sports um you’d watch it there and you’d see these guys sort of hammer it out and I have very a little doubt that it’s the hardest race on the planet um and it’s the hardest race on the planet not because it’s just physically tough but it’s so competitive as well like you can get guys at age groupers and stuff like that who were just animals out there and and I just sort of thought oh well I’ll get a bike and see how I go and I ended up getting through a friend of a friend um getting in contact with a coach Brett Davidson and um Box has been so good to me and he sort of guided me through it and I started really slow and I had some hiccups and I was in and out and up and down but yeah it’s

been a fantastic journey and eventually got to Hawaii in um last year got to Hawaii last year and yeah it is the greatest day in sport without a shadow of a doubt so and I kind of want it well I definitely want to go back in 2020 so that’s the next goal but yeah triathlon was a saviour it um I didn’t want to go back to clubbies I felt like I’d done not had done everything I could do but there was nothing more there that was sort of motivated me at all and I would have loved to win a taplan relay which if people listening don’t know that’s where you have two board paddlers two ski paddlers two swimmers and it’s probably it’s the last event of the season at the Australian Championships and so much emotion goes into it and it’s so tough to win and I think we ended up with maybe four silvers and two bronzers over the years all to Northcliffe the best club in the world so I just wanted to win one of those so bad and then when the boys

sort of broke up and went to different clubs and moved to the Gold Coast that possibility went out the window as well so I think it was like there was no more goals there and I just thought well what’s the next hardest thing I can do and and that’s um punish yourself for nine hours in a triathlon so yeah it was um it was definitely a wake-up call

yeah and that’s uh it’s funny how you keep like you keep coming back to similar but slightly different sports but all ones that are very very physically demanding and um but I think that’s like I’ve sort of found that like I’ve I still still primarily swim but um we’ll get back in a triathlon but um I’ve done a bit of running and it’s just like for me that’s where I find so much enjoyment and um and being I love the feeling of being fit and healthy and you know being out in the sun and um just like coming from that from that space then everything else tends to um tends to go well and it’s um there’s really there’s really peace in in the physique the physical exertion and in those events where it’s it’s incredibly hard and when I I built up and did an Iron Man in 2016 did the Taipei one and I’ve never suffered that hard at the last last like 10 well it’s probably the last like 20k is the run really but the last 10k is

the run I’ve never been in that that space before and uh like at the time it it really sucks but it’s one of those things that sucks at the time but you look back and go that was awesome I I’m so glad I I did it and you know if you can bring that sort of feeling on yourself on a somewhat regular basis I think that um that really makes you feel alive I think and there’s like a I think it’s Cameron Haines who’s like the ultra marathon runner and bow hunter and stuff and he’s like there’s two types of fun it’s the fun that you’re having at the time but you don’t really remember it and then there’s fun that like sucks at the time but you’ll remember it fondly for the rest of your life and that’s what these sorts of things are I think they they suck at the time but you’ve got the stories to tell and you’ve got that sense of accomplishment and all those positive like things along the way and you spot on like I had some really I guess warped role

models as a kid like and not warped in a bad way but guys who were I looked up to guys like Dean Mercer who’d go out and train for six hours straight and or like some of the like you look at guys like Grant Hackett or those guys who just like to be hard for a long long time and um like 200 butterflies like it’s a stupid event and it hurts and it’s miserable but it like it’s so much better than swimming a 50 freestyle or a or whatever it is like it they’re the tough ones I used to love 200 freestyle because it was all in from the start and it was more way more pain than all the other events and and I don’t know I’ve always been drawn to those sorts of things so Iron Man was a perfect fit and I guess that’s why I was drawn to the gold as well because the toughest test in surf sports like it’s four and a half hours and and people go oh well four and a half hours that’s like half of what an Iron Man is but you’re also battling against

the elements like you could be punching into the wind for three out of those four and a half hours kind of thing like and then there’s surf and then there’s the other competitors and then you’ve got to overcome all the other things that go along with it like it’s not easy at all and that’s what sort of draw me to it and and yeah like you said it’s those challenges that you really discover what you’re made of and who you are and and yeah that fatigue makes cowards of us all kind of thing and you’ve just got to figure out whether you like whether when you get to that point there’s really anything there or you just all talk on the start line because there’s so many people that are just all talk on the start line and when it gets to hour six or seven or eight are they saying the same thing or are they doing the same thing and that’s the real um yeah the real revealer of character I guess and yeah it’s great it’s Iron Man especially because

it’s just such a tough day and so much and it’s such a roller coaster like it’s so up and down like

and for me I think it’s a little bit easier normal people just hate the swim at the start like for them it’s an hour 15 of absolute misery to start the day whereas for me it’s like 45 minutes of the easiest most clean open water swim you’ll ever have and you start the race out in front it’s just so much fun from then on out and yeah I get passed by a thousand guys on the way through but it’s yeah I just love it like it’s such an addictive thing and it’s such a tough test and if you ever go to Hawaii and you watch the race you understand how how important it is to some people and how tough it can be for those guys out there guys like Craig Alexander or Jan Frodeno or those guys like they truly are some of the best athletes on the planet Barnaan because they mightn’t be the strongest or the fastest but they suffer the longest and I think that’s something that’s sort of is overlooked and it’s something that draws me in

every time yeah and they like they make it look so easy like you look at Jan at Kona makes it look so easy and you think oh okay it’s like it’s another day out for him but inside he he’s got to be suffering so hard to be able to put up to hold that speed for that long and to be able to do it so consistently as well like he’s just he’s just incredible especially over the last few years look at how far ahead he is of the the rest of the field like it’s just uh oh yeah it’s a real um and so you go yeah sorry it there’s some yeah there’s just and there’s some guys in different sports that may get seen that way like Phelps is the same and and Grand Hackett was one like like you look at you watch his swim in Athens in 2004 and he just looks so good the whole way through he makes it look so comfortable and then he gets out and he almost collapses when he stands up on the block and and like Crowey was another one of those in triathlon and there’s

guys like Shannon Eckstein in surf Ironman and they’re the guys that um like it hurts them but they just don’t care like it there’s a goal that’s more important than the fact that it hurts like and a few people have said to me in the past like pain is inevitable suffering is optional and that’s the attitude like they don’t suffer they’re in pain but they’re not suffering whereas people like me or your regulars like we suffer through the last couple of hours and I think that makes it worse whereas they’re in pain they understand it and they just move on and I think that’s a part of being a professional athlete that is overlooked the ability to just deal with it and get the job done anyway and over the next sort of five years or so what what would you like to to not necessarily be be doing but what sort of how would you like to be helping the guys that you’re working with and and competing like the sport that you’re doing at the moment

what are you working towards and and what are some of those challenges that you challenges that you want to continue to to face yeah I guess going back to Hawaii is a big one like I went there and and um got humbled pretty badly kind of thing I swam really well off the front um I think I swam 47 high on the swim and um rode really well and then ended up sort of just a walking zombie in the run so personally that’s the big goal is to um to get back to Hawaii and just put in a better day than that like I don’t think I’ll ever be a professional triathlete or anything like that but if I can put in a a strong sub nine hour or something like that that’d be pretty rad and then on the work front um I’d love to coach guys that go to the highest level and I’d love to coach Kellogg’s iron women or iron men and and sort of help them achieve their dream but it’s it’s probably not the focus for me it’s probably helping each kid

when they come through figure out what they what they want to get out of the sport and then helping them get to that point um it’s everyone wants to be on tv and everybody wants to do all those things but for some kids it’s like hey I just want to be the third person in the board relay or I want to get to the state final or I want to go from not being able to get out around the cans and back in and it’s definitely not as glamorous as being the coach who has the guy who wins but it’s certainly just as fulfilling so for me I’ve got some great kids who can definitely make it at the top level if they choose to and I will be there and support them 100% the entire way but I’m more about finding out what each kid wants and and helping them get there and helping them overcome challenges and challenges that are away from the beach as much as the ones that are on the beach because kids have a tough time and and these kids are

great young kids but they also have to deal with school and friendship groups and social media and all those sorts of things so if I can be one of the positive outlets

in their life and and sort of have an impact like some of the coaches had on my life I still ring both Ronnie and and Kingie all the time and ask for advice about everything except surf and swimming kind of thing I still talk to them and like about life and all these sorts of things and I just hope one day that I guess that’s my goal over the next five years is I can have relationships with these kids where they feel like they can ring me and ask for advice and if they need help call and and and not be afraid to ring and say hey I made a mistake what should I do because that’s more important than gold silver and bronze at the end of the day these kids are some of them will be champions I have no doubt about that but a lot of them won’t be and it’s probably more important that I have a positive impact on their life rather than helping them paddle out around three cans and back to the beach super fast because I don’t know when they’re 60 or 70 whether that’ll be all that important on

their list or whether it’s how you help me through that tough time and and that’s probably the big one for me yeah I think that’s a really good good goals of coaches it’s a sign of a coach where the athlete can come to you and and talk about things challenges they might be having in their life and and teaching and teaching those life skills that that they may not be getting at home they may not be getting at school that’s that’s where I think have the biggest but maybe they they are getting them at home but may a lot of the time they just don’t listen to their parents like they’re I’m not saying my message is any different to their parents but sometimes it’s just got to come from a different source and mom and dad like it happens all the time you’re too close to or the kids are too close and they feel like that they can they can sort of lash out and say like hey if you like no matter what I say to you I know you’re gonna

love me so they sort of take it out on their parents whereas if it comes from a coach or a teacher or a family friend they tend to listen a little bit more and it doesn’t get drowned out in the wash of how you get ready for school and all these other things and yeah that’s probably the big one for me is like I don’t know any more than parents do but sometimes it’s just a different voice that that has a bigger impact yeah I was um contacted by a parent this week actually and she said uh look our daughter she’s having trouble like when she gets to the to the race on the blocks like she just counts herself out she looks at the other competitors and and then just over things certain things she’s not good enough and and she said like yeah myself my husband and trying to like you know talk her through it and give her some things to to help but like I just knowing knowing what it’s like you know you just

they’re not gonna listen to their parents no matter how good athlete they were or how good coach they might be it’s like it’s gotta come from from someone else and I think that lesson has got to be learned in the in the doing it’s not gonna necessarily come from what someone says yeah that’s it and I yeah and I said look we’ll be better off you know doing some doing some sessions and some training sessions and and just get it to build up that confidence in yeah in the pool first and then she could translate that into the races and um yeah that’s that’s it’s it’s a it’s good to know that um like that’s what the what the real benefit of being a coach is or how you can really help people because I just said looking back in even like five ten years how fast that person goes or how fast this one goes for a hundred meters probably not gonna make a big difference in this grand scheme of their life but it’s uh

it’s the other stuff around it yeah and I learned that from like Ron McKay and the perfect example he had his daughter Emma just missed the Olympics as a 14 year old and when she got a little bit older he told her that she had to go and get another coach because that wasn’t the relationship wasn’t working as and not the relationship had broken down but you need someone other than dad telling you there hey you need to swim this and do that you need dad as well as coach and he and Emma went off to Brisbane and grew as an athlete and their relationship is fantastic and like it showed me and she won the most Olympic medals in Rio of any Australian and he was good enough to know that hey her needs come before mine and as dad I need to let her go and he’s was the Australian open water head coach at that point so you know he’s a fantastic coach and all that and could have got it those medals as well but sometimes that second voice is just so much more

important or so or equally important in reinforcing those messages yeah and I like my dad was my coach growing up up until about 18 how did that go well it was really it was really good because he like when we got home there was never any talk at the dinner table like yeah you didn’t push hard enough in that set or like there was none of that and so that’s what made that relationship work so yeah and I mean I was never at that that level where I was yeah I was kind of just off Australian open qualifying times yeah so yeah there wasn’t that that need to sort of go elsewhere yeah yeah yeah but had it like I’ve seen I’ve seen parents who coach their kids who won’t who will take it to take it home and take it to the dinner table and it just doesn’t last because that’s not what you want from a parent you want I heard a guy Ben I think it’s Ben Crown he was he works with the Richmond Tigers and he was being interviewed on on SCN

and I’m talking to Gary Lyne and someone else and one of the things that he said about being a parent is all you all you really need to say is to your kid is I love watching you swim or I love watching you you know play footy it’s not I love watching you get that gold medal or I love watching you swim fastest I just I love watching you do whatever it whatever it is that you do and I think that’s a such a good and simple message because you know the kid takes that and go mum dad loves watching me you know play footy like that’s that’s all it needs to be and that’s the best way you can support your kids yeah and I think it needs to be the that needs to be the first message like and I’m not saying don’t tell your kid oh hey you could have done this a little bit better or whatever but as long as it’s not that’s not the first message the first message is hey I’m proud of you hey you did a really good job

it was fantastic and and then when the kid knows that they’re more probably more accepting of any advice you’ve got to give kind of thing and whereas if it’s just oh hey you miss that goal or you you were slow over the third 50 or whatever it is that that’s when it becomes hey I’ve got two coaches here and I’m not looking for two coaches I’m looking for a coach and a mum and dad not um somewhere and it seems like you and your old man had that perfectly like coach on pool deck and then when you get home it’s dad and that’s what it’s all about like that’s the good balance that you need to have and most of the parents that I’ve got a fantastic like that they’re really really good um they understand and and there it’s been really really refreshing because you hear horror stories about um kids sport or kids sport parents but I’m really lucky in that sense that they let me be coach and for the majority their mum and dad which

is yeah fantastic and and everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day they just want their kids to be successful and they want them to be happy like that’s the most important thing out of all of them and if I if I can end up finishing up here with all my kids enjoying it and happy and and having fun then I’ve done my job and if we win some stuff along the way that’s pretty cool too. It’s been great chatting to you and for those people that are listening you have your own podcast which is

too kind but it’s uh it’s called called around the can so do you want to talk a little bit about that and for anyone who’s interested in in surf clubs and that kind of thing yeah what’s uh has the best way to find it and how’d that all come about? Yeah so we um my best mate Jack Hansen who is possibly one of the best coaches in the country or is one of the best coaches in the country in surf life saving um one of the best youth coaches that’s for sure he has a connection with kids and he’s unbelievable um we’re best mates and we love surf life saving so we just put out a weekly podcast about surf life saving um it’s pretty it’s pretty hardcore surf but we just have a bit of fun with it nothing too serious and um yeah it’s pretty low key we talked to some some former competitors as well we’ve had the likes of Guy Leach on before talking about what the sport was like in the 80s and what it’s like to well be one of the most famous

sportsmen in the country and end up going on Baywatch and all those sorts of things so we just have a bit of fun with it and it’s called around the cans you can get it at all uh places where good podcasts are provided so jump on and have a listen and give us some feedback and we love it so yeah it’s um it’s not the world’s greatest podcast that’s for sure but we do our best well it’s a good approach we always always looking to improve but um I think you know the way you I think you sort of understay yourself with uh with your level of of sport and I imagine it’s the same with uh with your podcast so I’d appreciate you being on the podcast I’m looking forward to catching up next time I come up your way beautiful sunshine coast mate you’re always welcome that’s for sure thanks for having me on and um yeah if anyone’s ever got any questions just jump on the gram and hit me up and hopefully I can answer anything

anyone has or if they want to give me some feedback I’d really appreciate it and we’ll put all those links at the bottom of the uh the show notes and uh people can can find you there and what’s the what’s your instagram handle uh joshie minogue so joshie with a y in there and um yeah not Kylie so similar spelling but yeah love it thanks mate thank you so much thanks for listening to the effortless swimming podcast if you’d like us to help you become a faster more efficient swimmer go to www.effortlesswimming.com

The post When Patience Pays Off with Josh Minogue appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

Our guest in today’s episode is Darren Stojanovic from Dynamic Stability. He is a physiotherapist but he is also doing a lot of work in breathwork. In this episode, Darren and I will be talking about different breathing techniques which can help you control your emotion and help you improve your performance.

3:01 Learning About Breathing
04:48 Putting Breathing Techniques Together And Teaching It
06:27 How Breathwork Can Alter The Body’s System
09:00 How It Can Help People
14:14 You Improve Your Breathing, You Improve Your Technique
17:20 Different Effects On People
23:25 Circular Breathing/ The Go-To Breath
25:02 Boxed Breathing/Sniper Breath
28:41 Triangle Breathing
34:44 Energy Breathing
42:18 One Of The Most Powerful Thing You Can Do To Your Body

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Transcription:
Brenton: So Darren, first of all, welcome to the podcast, and we’ve been wanting to sort of talk about this stuff for a little while. We finally got you on. So thanks for joining me.

Darren: No problem, thanks for having me on.

Brenton: We’ve known each other for a couple of years just kind of through triathlon and being in the Melbourne scene. But I’ve sort of been interested in breath work for a little while but never really learnt too much about it. And you contacted me a couple of months ago and said, “I’ve started to run these breath work courses,” out of your practice, would I like to come along? And so, I came along to a couple of those classes and found them… my eyes were really opened to the power of breath work and some of the benefits of it. And I’m only sort of scratching the surface really. But I’m looking forward to learning a lot more. And that’s what we’re going to talk about on today’s podcast. So I think, first of all, how did you come about… how’d you learn about this stuff and find out about it?

Darren: Yeah, well, thanks Brenton. My main background as a physio, been working as a physio for probably about 20 years now. And I my involvement probably in triathlon probably over the past sort of five to 10 years has a sort of led me to the point where I’m sort of looking for new things to enhance performance, and not just one a physical sort of level, but a little bit on that sort of mind, body sort of mental approach. And a couple years ago, I came across a… guys that live up in Gold Coast and they came down. They work under the company Breathe Me. And they came down to Melbourne and sort of ran a little bit of a class for my staff and few other people. And that very first session that I did with them, I just was completely blown away on the intensity of the breath work and how incredible you felt after you’d done a session and the changes that it had on your body physically as well as mentally.

Darren: And so, then after that, then I sort of had a bit of a chance to sort of reflect on it and chatted more to these guys. And I organized sort of regular, monthly sessions at my clinic, at Dynamic Stability. And I invited all my clients and various people to come along to these sessions once a week. And for a whole year, we ran monthly sessions getting sort of 30 to 50 people in this one day, in for classes, and just had a pretty incredible result with all of my client base and decided then to pursue it a bit further beyond that.

Brenton: And you’ve dove really deep into all the different kinds of breath work. And I guess through all of that and learning all these different types of techniques, it seems like you’ve kind of put them together and come up with your own way of teaching it and taking your clients through it. Is that a fair summary of what you’re doing now in these breath work classes?

Darren: Yeah, definitely, breath work is not a new thing. It’s been around in yoga for years. And it’s been around in all sorts of things, even as far as people learning during pregnancy to breathe properly. But what I found is the breath work is not really delivered, these days, in a way that’s easy for everyone to be part of or everyone to take home from the breath work exactly what suits that person best. And you have your athletes, then you have your people that are suffering from anxiety and depression, and then you have your sort of people that are in chronic pain, and then you have a whole lot of other people that are doing it just for well-being.

Darren: So my idea is to sort of learn a lot of the different breath techniques, package them together in a way that people can come to a class and they can experience more than just one style and really learn what breath pattern resonates well for them, still practice all of them, but they get a bit of an idea of getting one area they can really focus on, and then really developing an appreciation for all the different styles of breathing that you can do and how it can benefit your body.

Brenton: And let’s talk about how breath work can alter the body’s systems and how can someone start to implement this in their day-to-day life. So what does it look like for you? How often are you doing it? And how long does it have to go for to get a benefit?

Darren: Yeah, sure. Well, I suppose, look at the body. There’s all our organs, our brain function, all that stuff, and one sort of really interesting thing is, our lungs are actually one of the crucial organs in the body that can run itself on automatic pilot without us thinking, but we can also take complete, voluntary control over that system. We can make some changes to heart rate, but really, our organs and heart and things beat away and carry on a little bit in the background without us able to gain control over it. And mentally, we can do some positive affirmations and make changes to our thoughts and things, but our breathing is something that is a lot more tangible for how we can take control over that system. And so, by doing that, we can actually make quite radical changes to our whole organ network because they’re all very interconnected energetically.

Darren: We have sort of a nerve called the vagus nerve, which sort of runs from the head, through the body, goes through the lungs, goes through every organ in the body, goes to our digestion, and it is like the connecting unit that sort of connects all these organs together. And one talks to the other, and when one changes function, it alters the function in the other area. So I suppose with that knowledge, if we can actually, in a way, hijack our breathing system, we can actually make changes to our whole network in our whole body just by altering how we breathe.

Darren: And if we’re trying to make dramatic changes to that, we can actually breathe with some pretty intense breathing patterns to actually bring about changes in our blood alkalinity, changes in our mental function, calming our nervous system, waking our nervous system up, or make changes to our kidney function, liver function, even to the point where we will change inflammatory markers in our body to alter inflammation. And we can work on these techniques on a daily basis to make a big change.

Brenton: And what I like about… I was doing one of your classes, was you explained the science behind it. Because you say, “Changing the way you breathe can alter all of these things.” And it’s like, “Yeah, okay, yeah, maybe.” But there’s a lot of science to it, and there’s been a lot of study into it. And that’s what I really liked about the class because I think, for me at least, with that knowledge and that… with that knowledge of the sort of science behind it, it helps me buy into the belief and the importance of it.

Brenton: But then, obviously, when you do the breathing, it really… you feel it, you experience it, and you get a really… you really notice the difference. And some of the feelings that I had going through those breathing exercises, it really can be a natural high. And you can have some really bizarre and out there kind of feelings and experiences in the body just by doing these breathing exercises. And in terms of how it can help people, what are some of the results that you’ve seen people have as a result of the breathing?

Darren: Well, yeah, sure, so the… some of the important things that can help you with this, on a basic, physiological level, it can actually really improve the efficiency of someone’s breathing. And I don’t think, if you analyze most people’s breathing techniques, we’d be actually breathing very efficiently, so especially with respect to swimmers that are so involved in how the oxygen exchange and their use of their diaphragm. So it can have massive benefits on teaching people how they’re overbreathing, how they’re overutilizing certain parts of their lungs and underutilizing certain parts and really improve their efficiency of breathing.

Darren: For me, definitely what I’ve noticed is just the better breath technique can actually help you with your… connecting to your core. We all sort of know we need our core to power some of our stroke. And I think getting a little bit better efficiency in your breath pattern can really help you with that connection and allow you to get better power delivering your stroke by giving you a better connection to your core muscles, which are really generating a lot of this breath pattern.

Darren: I’ve also found… so just with neck and back soreness, if you’re breathing a little bit out of sync, your swim stroke starts to impact on neck pain and back pain. And then, relaxing in the water a bit better and really calming your breath and getting good breathing rhythm can have enormous improvements to do with sort of back pain and neck pain, and I think just general diaphragm conditioning as well. We’re obviously, as athletes, we do breathe and do get better performances with our breath rhythm. But I think really learning to isolate the diaphragm and get great conditioning and endurance in the diaphragm muscle can have really dramatic improvements in your stroke and your timing.

Darren: And then, we sort of… as physios, we work a lot with people sort of thoracic spine and back mobility and joint mobility and ribs. And I think so many swimming drills that really require a certain amount of thoracic mobility and back mobility to do correctly. And if you think about our breath mechanism, you really… it’s completely related to how we store tension in our ribs and whether we use our intercostal muscles correctly, whether we actually have mobility through the upper back, where we can gain rotation and movement through the whole spinal area. So this repeated work on the breath patterns can have really dramatic effects on back mobility, upper neck tension.

Darren: And I think then beyond that, mentally, when people have actually finished training, your body is wired up from exercise. And one thing I’ve noticed is when I get out of the pool, especially if I do an evening session, I’m not going to sleep in a hurry. I’m awake for hours and hours, and my system is revved up. And one major thing that breath work can do is actually really start to calm your nervous system. It helps you switch on what we call our parasympathetic nervous system. It’s an automatic system in the body, but it governs all of our rest and regeneration and our recovery properties.

Darren: So we can do a certain breath technique where we help to switch off our fight or flight and we switch on our parasympathetic nervous system. And what that does is actually helps our body dial down the stress response that happens through exercise and bring on the recovery phase that is required for sleeping and therefore enabling us to calm down our nervous system after intense exercise and help our body slip into that recovery mode and therefore, have much better sleep patterns and get into deeper restorative sleep.

Brenton: When we were in Thailand for our whole-week camps in October, I took the groups through this… I think most mornings I did some of the exercises that I learnt at your classes and just got them to lie down for 10 to 15 minutes going through a couple of these exercises. And I think one of the most obvious differences that I saw doing that was in the technique sessions. So on the first day, we do filming and analysis. The second day, in the morning, we take them through some drills and exercises to improve their stroke. And before that, I got them go through these breathing exercises.

Brenton: And what often happens when people are going through drills is they really want to make these changes, so they tend to be very tense, and they try and force it. And they’re not really relaxed because they’re concentrating so hard on the changes. But what this breathing did was it just got them in this state of mind where they’re very calm, their breathing was relaxed. And it’s from that place where it’s so much easier to make changes to your stroke.

Brenton: And that’s probably the best results I’ve seen in terms of improving technique, within that session, that we’ve ever had. And I put a lot of that down to the breathing that we did at the start because it got them in the right frame of mind. And it got them breathing relaxed. It got, I guess, the body and the mental state in a place where they could really make the changes. So it was noticeably different. And that was just one of the differences. But boy, it really helped. And it’s something that I’m going to continue to do [crosstalk 00:13:27].

Darren: I think, on that note, one major thing with breath work is learning, in your body, peak state. So peak state is very much characterized by that optimum arousal. Now, none of us will swim well by being really relaxed, and none of us will swim well by being over stimulated. And each person’s optimal arousal is slightly different. The occasional athlete will really need to be revved up a bit, and some will need to be really calmed down to get the most out of them.

Darren: So one thing that does happen with breath work is that when you’re going through the exercises on your own, you are learning in your own body, the different feelings of what it feels to be really relaxed, what it feels to be sort of revved up a little bit. And you can learn in your own body where it is that your body sits when it gets to peak state. And I think all this experience, like the occasional swim where you feel like you’re unfatiguable, that there’s no effort, it’s just all happening, it’s all flowing, that’s a characteristic of peak state.

Darren: And they talk about athletes learn over time to bring themself to that peak state. But it’s not often a technique that people are taught to do. We just accidentally end up there. And we think, “Wow, that was a great session.” And then, for months, you’re trying to find that peak state again. You had no idea how you got there. Yeah, so it’s… that’s a good point to bring up. Because it’s sort of… it is a skill, and it is an awareness as well. And people connecting to that mental state is an important thing.

Brenton: Yeah, and it’s… there’s some really… going through some of the breathing exercises, which we’ll talk about in a moment… we’ll give some examples of those types of breathing, there’s some really strange experiences. You sort of preface some of the classes with, “As we go through some of these exercises, you might feel some pretty extreme emotions, some happy, some sad, you might feel like your body’s tingling. You might…” for me, my faith in some of the breathing exercises where we’re really lifting the breathing rate up, my face was all contorted, and this really weird… I’m glad I didn’t have a camera on me because it would have looked really bizarre. But I couldn’t control what my face was doing. Then at other times, with some of the exercises, I couldn’t stop myself from smiling. It was just really bizarre. So can you talk a little bit about why that is and what some of these things are that can happen as you’re going through them.

Darren: Well, first thing sort of just to note is when we look a bit deeper on the different breathing techniques, we sort of realize that our whole nervous system is sort of divided in two. And we have a whole autonomic system. One is our sympathetic nervous system, which is governing all of our fight or flight. When we’re exercising, when we’re pushing a little bit, our blood pressure sort of increases, the heart rate increases, we get hormones injected into our blood stream to promote exercise and fight or flight. And then we have the opposite, which is the other half of our autonomic nervous system, which is our parasympathetic system. And that system sort of governs that rest and regeneration I was talking about before, which helps to lower your heart rate. And it also helps to sort of bring on our muscle repair, decrease inflammation, get you to sleep, put you in all of that sort of really meditative state.

Darren: So there’s going to be forever a balance between these two systems that we’re working with. And then, when we do some of the breathing exercises, we’re going to be breathing in a particular way to stimulate the sympathetic response or breathe in a way to stimulate the regenerative response. So as a general rule, during our inhale, we’re actually stimulating the sympathetic response, our sort of fight or flight, and then during the exhale phase, we’re actually promoting our rest and regeneration a little bit.

Darren: So you can imagine we breathe in a particular style where we’re emphasizing the inhale breath, we will be raising that vibrational energy in the body up and up and up and up to a level that it will become quite strong. If we’re breathing in a way that we’re investing in the exhale breath, what we’ll be doing is actually really helping calm the system down and actually change brainwave patterns and put you into much more of a calmer sort of situation where you may feel like you are going so calm that you’re not falling asleep but you’re sort of almost feel yourself drifting off in a certain place.

Darren: And so, in some of the classes that you’ve done is… what we’ve done is we mix up those breath rhythms and give people a chance to feel all the dynamics of the body. So what we can start off with is quite a calming sort of breath, which is like a circular breath. So if you imagine drawing on a blackboard, a circle, like a clock face, you can imagine that when you breathe in and move around the clock face, you can think about your breathing from sort of 6 O’clock at the base and breathing around past 9 O’clock all the way up to 12:00. And in your mind’s eye, you can imagine taking five seconds to breathe your breath from the bottom all the way to the top. And then, without pausing, then breathe out, and then visualize yourself moving down through 1 O’clock down through 3 O’clock. And then, when you arrive all the way back at the base, you imagine you’ve arrived back at 6 O’clock.

Darren: And if you can take five seconds to do the inhale breath and take five seconds to do the exhale breath, what you’re doing is putting almost equal importance on both the breath patterns and therefore creating a calming effect on the nervous system and allowing your body to switch into a really good state, not over aroused, not under aroused, but in a way sort of getting a perfect harmony within the body. And there’s been sort of talk about that breath pattern being called what we sometimes call a heart resonance breath. And what it does is to really help energetically, the brain and the lungs and the heart, start to move into the same energetic rhythm.

Darren: And I think we all probably sort of found moments in our life where we sort of feel a little bit out of sorts. Commonly, that’s a bit related to these organs in the body not being on the… pardon me… on the same energetic level and not connecting and talking well to each other. Because there’s no way our heart beats without connecting to our lungs. And there’s no way our lungs breathe without some input from the brain. And all these organs actually have constant little highways to go between them. And they all have messages that are going back and forth, giving feedback on what’s happening in the lungs, giving feedback what’s happening in the heart, even giving feedback on what thoughts and emotions are being felt. And so, when we breathe in that first breath circular pattern, the Five In Five Out, we’re actually creating the best harmonizing breath to put all those organs together so they sync and they talk to each other well. And they all harmonize on a similar vibrational frequency level. So it grants a bit of that optimum state.

Brenton: And so, would you recommend that kind of breathing for someone who’s… let’s say they’re driving in their car on the way to the pool, would that be a good type of breathing to do on the way to train?

Darren: Yeah, it is a good breathing. Like I sort of say to people, it can be a bit of your go-to breath. It’ll soothe everyone. Definitely, if you’ve had a busy day at work and your mind’s racing, that breath pattern will help you stay attentive so driving is safe. But it also allows you gain a little bit of control over the rhythm, and you’ll calm down the nervous system after a bad day or after a day of a few arguments or whatever it might be. And you’ll arrive at the pool then much more able to listen to instructions and much more able to process the cues and the things that are being told to you.

Darren: Because commonly, in different brain states, you might suggest someone to keep their elbow in a particular position or have their hands placed in a certain angle. They’ll hear the words, but because of the brain state, it’ll mean nothing to their body. So they’ll dive back in, and they’re like… they’ll have no connection really to your instructions, whereas if they’re in a mental state that is processing well, whatever words come in, will mean something very quickly to them, and they’ll be able to activate that neuromuscular process quickly because they’re in that optimum sort of arousal state.

Brenton: That’s good.

Darren: And move beyond that where we actually sort of change their breath pattern, which is sort of what you’re talking about and doing a few other styles.

Brenton: And we’ve got a couple of other ones sort of written down here that we went through in the class. So I want to talk a little bit about those other styles. So we got box breathing, triangle breathing, and then talk about the energy breathing. So what’s the difference there and how can… what’s the purpose behind these other styles/

Darren: Yeah, sure, so the box breath, I sort of liken that to our breath you would imagine a sniper would be using. A sniper needs to be kept extremely calm but also needs to be highly on alert. So if you imagine the mix of that, is almost like our peak state feeling. We don’t want to get too calm, we don’t want to get to relaxed, but we also want to be paying attention and be absolutely at the ready. So the box breath starts to bring in a little bit of that where what we do is we visualize moving around a box shape. And when you breathe in, you can think of yourself rising up to the top of the box, and then when you get to the top of the box, you just gently, without too much tension, hold your breath in for the same number of seconds that you breathed in for.

Darren: So we can start at roughly four seconds if you’d like. Someone take a four second breath in, then they’d hold their breath in for four seconds. And then, they just nicely breathe out so their breath out took four seconds. And then, once they’ve finished their breath out, what they’re going to practice is just staying calm and relaxed and rested at the end of their breath out and just pause. So we’re not sort of clamping our breath and holding on for dear life. No, what we’re actually [inaudible 00:24:27] doing is imagining like you are continuing to mentally breathe out during that pause. And you just keep seeing yourself go round the box, four seconds inhale, four seconds holding the breath in, four seconds to steadily breathe out, and then four seconds to just pause and rest the bottom of the breath out.

Darren: And then, people can develop that. You can develop that to five seconds on each section up to six. Certain breath classes, we try to build that to eight or 10. We’re actually trying to breathe so slow that imagine 10 seconds to breathe in, 10 seconds to hold, 10 seconds to breathe out, and 10 seconds to pause, is actually taking about 40 seconds. So that means a person might only be doing a couple breaths a minute, which is an incredibly slow rate of which over time you can build up to.

Darren: And imagine for a swimmer what that means. That means they’ll have the ability… it’s almost like the dexterity of an opera singer you’re giving to the diaphragm. And that swimmer then has the ability to know they can control the rhythm of their breath and control the timing and they can actually get an even structure in their breath rhythm. So there’s no emphasis on the breathing in being more important or the exhale being more important that actually help to develop… and like we talked about the box shape, imagine if it’s gone from say four on each section, and now it’s six, and now, it’s eight, and then maybe it’s 10. Can you see how that breath square, the box is actually expanding? So in the person’s mind’s eye, they’re seeing their lung volume getting bigger and bigger and bigger and it just feels like you then have this unlimited ability to use your lungs, which clearly is an advantage in swimming.

Brenton: Yeah, I like the analogy or the name for it… a sniper breath. For me, that’s a good way to remember, “All right, when would you use this type of breathing?” And one of the immediate… almost immediate sort of benefits and the things that I noticed was when I trained for the… the couple of weeks around those sessions that I did, the breathing… the breathing felt… it felt easier. But I didn’t have to think about it. The breathing just naturally improved. And so, I was able to sort of have this higher output for no extra effort. I was just able to sit at this faster pace without feeling that to be taxing on the aerobic system. And it happens pretty quickly because it’s something that most people aren’t training. And like with most exercises you do, if you do a little bit of it, you notice quite a big benefit fairly immediately.

Darren: Yeah, definitely, I’ve got people that come in… may even walk in the room stressed and we’ll leave an hour for the class, but within five minutes, you see their system just drop away and calm right down. So you can get enormous improvements with this stuff if you just put your mind to it and spend 60 seconds doing a particular breath style. And really what I’m trying to do with these classes is encourage people in their normal, everyday life, just arrive five minutes early to something you need to do, or just take two minutes out at lunch time, as you finish work in the day, take another two minutes out, and make all these breath sequences just part of your normal, everyday life. And start to see the dramatic changes you can have to your whole day.

Brenton: And the triangle breathing?

Darren: Yeah, so then, now that we understand a bit of the purpose of the box breathing and we talked before about the inhale breath having a little bit of a focus on our fight or flight, so our sympathetic response… which also we need. We don’t want to turn up to a meeting looking like our eyes are popping out of our head and we’re half asleep. We don’t want to be too relaxed. So it’s important we know how to upscale our energy when we need it.

Darren: So the idea of the triangle breath is you imagine now change your box breath to a triable shape, and what you can imagine, if you can breathe in to the top of your inhale and actually only hold the inhale breath, so therefore it becomes a triangle shape. Because then, once you’ve finished holding your breath in, you just steadily breathe out, breathing out to the bottom. But then, when you get to the bottom of your exhale, you just breathe in again without a pause. So you might repeat five to 10 triangle breaths where you hold the inhale breath, and that way, expanding the inhale side.

Darren: And then, imagine then the triangle breath that is flipped the other way. You’d actually then be holding the exhale breath. So you breathe in steadily. Without a pause, we breathe out. And then, when we get to the bottom of the exhale breath, we will then just stop and rest. And we’d really invest in the exhale pause and try to send… it’s almost… think about, okay… we already talked about that vagus nerve sending messages around the body. You can imagine the way you breathe, you are sending signals and messages to every cell in the body, even as far as the blood vessels in your feet. You are sending messages down to every structure. So if you’re going to breathe in a particular triangle breath, when you’re doing the breath out, pause, what you can visualize is that breath out pause is sending that little emotional message through the nervous system, and it’s being seen and heard by every cell in the body: the brain cells, the heart cells, our digestive cells, right down to all the blood vessels that are in our body adjusting towards what we’re doing. And you can think about the quality of the message that you send.

Darren: So if we take a triangle breath, breathe in, breathe out, and I’m sort of holding my breath under stress, then I’m not sending the best message, am I? What we want to be doing is actually really investing in that breath out pause, and even visualizing ourself on holidays. And imagine that moment when you get on holidays and you see the banana lounge, and you lay down on that banana lounge and go, “You know what? I’ve got a whole week ahead of me here where no one’s going to pester me,” When you breathe out and lie on that banana lounge, you breathe out in a particular way, and you really emotionally invest in the idea that you don’t have to get off that banana lounge for a whole week if you really don’t want to.

Darren: So we’re trying to bring into the breath pattern is make people… don’t just physically breathe in and out, in and out, and count your numbers. Actually try to then emotionally invest in what you’re trying to achieve. And during that one, we trying to invest in the exhale pause. And a great breath technique for those people that want to calm themself down, maybe prepare yourself for sleep. It’s probably the example breath of what we talked about before about after training of calming the system down. So you might be a bit wired up, so if we’re go into our triangle breath where we breathe out, pause, we’re actually continually signaling the parasympathetic system.

Darren: And like I said, then if we emotionally invest in the quality of how we breathe out, pause, and we can even visualize some calm things, and then bring the mind into it as well, what we’re going to do is to create an enormous effect on the parasympathetic system to switch off all of our fight or flight and switch on all our regeneration. And within a very short space of time, you’re going to be feeling extremely different, calmed down, ready for sleep, or even just calm down after you got yourself worked up about something.

Brenton: This is good. So we’ve spoken about the circular breathing, which you mentioned is the heart resonance breath or almost like your go-to breath during the day. But the box breathing, which is the sniper breath, where it sort of prepares you… almost a peak state. The triangle breathing, which can help you, almost like the after training breath when you want to sort of quieten everything down. And now, the last one I’ve got here is the energy breath. So do you want to talk a bit about the energy breathing?

Darren: Yeah, so we’ll talk about that one today. This breath sort of probably falls under, in my mind, some of the advanced categories and definitely an incredible breath. And if you’re going to some more advanced breath classes that you may see advertised around the place, they’ll probably utilize a little bit of this breath rhythm where what we’re trying to do is to generally raise the bodily energy. And if you think about… if we put something in the microwave to heat it up, what we’re actually doing is putting food in the microwave, the microwaves are creating a change in the vibration of the molecules in the frozen food. And by passing the microwaves through, what they’re doing is they’re vibrating… via inputting energy, they’re vibrating all the cells of the food till the cells are vibrating at a faster pace. And that’s what’s creating the heat.

Darren: So what we’re actually doing in our own body is we’re breathing in a way to raise vibrational energy in the cells, in the whole bodily structure. If you think back to how you feel when you’ve got the flu or when you’re recovering from the flu and your body feels heavy and dead, and everything I’d stiff and sore, that’s a bit like poor vibrational energy. That’s what we feel like when we’re just flat and nothing is active.

Darren: So imagine doing a breath class where you practice some of these different techniques. And then, when it’s time, what you do is move into an energy breath where you start to play with that working inhale breath, but relaxing the exhale breath. And when you continue to create this circular energy breath, what you actually do is you continually raise the vibrational energy of the body to the point where you are waking up dormant areas in the body and you are increasing this sort of energy flow throughout the whole system. And I quite often think about the science of Chinese medicine, how we know how all the meridians go from the body. They go down the arms, they go in the feet. It’s been a known fact for years that they work off that theory.

Darren: And then, we talk a little bit about our chakra levels like our heart chakra, our crown chakra, our base chakra being more like energy vortex levels within the body. And there’s sort of seven main ones of those and a lot of smaller ones. So I quite often think about, when I’m doing some of these energy breaths, that I’m gradually just building the energy that is available in the system. And what our body does is actually utilize that energy in the areas that it needs it, pushing it to the fingers, pushing it to the toes, pushing it through the periphery to open up areas that are being blocked. And we can have some amazingly profound experiences during these energy breaths where our whole body starts to wake up.

Darren: My interesting sort of approach there is I’ve had quite a few clients that have been sent to me with chronic pain. And the sort of… the definition of chronic pain is really that there are areas of pain in your body that have no reason to be sore. You don’t have pathology or injuries associated with these sort of areas. And there are nerves that are just lighting up for no real, major reason. And they are causing a stimulus back to your brain. And your brain is picking up this stimulus as pain, as an injury or something like that. But there is no actual injured site.

Darren: So what actually happens, interestingly, in this energy breath, is, imagine these people go into this energy breath and all of a sudden, their chronic pain sites are lit up. They can feel the neck pain, they can feel the back pain. They can feel all the pains that they live with day to day that really have no reason to be sore. And what’s happening in that instance is the bodily energy is building up where these overactive nerve cells that are firing off these pain signals actually light up in their system.

Darren: Now, you can either choose to fidget round or stop breathing because you’ve got pain. But then, mentally, when you realize that your body does not have anything actually wrong with it and all you’ve got to do is lay still and keep breathing, eventually, what you do is you deprogram these sensitized nerve endings and nerve structures to the fact that, “Okay, there’s actually nothing wrong. Maybe it’s time to calm down.” And over repeated sessions, what happens is the person doesn’t get these pathway patterns lit up. And what happens, they then dampen down their chronic pain. And they can then live their normal life without these pain signals being generated.

Brenton: I really like the analogy of the microwave. And that’s literally kind of how it feels, like the cells in your body are vibrating. It really feels that way. And then, interesting with the people with chronic pain. Do you find that some people, they get to that point where they’re feeling that pain doing the breathing exercises… do you some of them… obviously the… they probably want to back off. They’d want to just stop breathing because it’s causing them pain.

Darren: Yeah.

Brenton: But do you sort of… do you talk to them beforehand and let them know, “This is probably what you’ll experience. So if you’re comfortable, you should continue breathing through it because this is the result you’ll get”?

Darren: Yeah, look, definitely. And look, what [inaudible 00:38:48] talking about here is energy breath, this is probably one of the most powerful things that you can do to your body. We can pop a few vitamins and have a massage or have a stretch or go for a run. People might think this breathing is quite a subtle thing, of which it is, but this actual technique, when people get involved in it, is definitely… I liken it to those Karcher brushes when you’ve got some oil on your driveway. And you go out there, and you get one of those high pressure water turbo things. And when you turn it on, the water pressure coming out of that thing is immense. And when you blast the concrete, you get off years of dirt off that thing.

Darren: So this energy breath is really in, in my mind, a bit like taking to your body with one of those Karcher brushes. And I’ve talked about it on a physical level so far, but really the main approach here is on a mental level of what we’re doing is actually sort of helping our body block… clear out certain blockages in the brain. And like you said, people do approach a lot of these techniques… when things get a little bit tough, the idea is, “Look, I better give up, better back off here.” And I suppose that’s where some of the ice immersion work comes in after this sort of work or in addition to this work, whereas some of the Wim Hof technique where people will actually then keep going with this energy breath, and then they move to dunking themself in the ice. And then, if you’ve ever heard your brain tell you to get out, you will definitely hear it then.

Darren: All our automatic, subliminal programs that are in our brain that tell us all sorts of stuff… on a small, subtle level for the swimmers, it might be the bit… all the, ‘Can’t do’s,’ like “I can’t do that time,” or “I can’t stay in the pool for long enough,” or “I can’t execute that stroke pattern,” all of those things are really automatic programs that are embedded in our brain. And some of those programs actually help us live. We probably experienced the sort of times where sometimes we’ve been driving home and we’re busy thinking about something, and then suddenly we realized, “Oh, wow, I’m turning in the driveway.” We’ve actually managed to get home with very little conscious thought of what we’re doing. And what that actually is, is all those incredible, automatic processes that are in our body that can run our live and run for us a program like getting home, making a coffee, or doing something in our work life that we can do pretty easily.

Darren: But on the flip side, we can have a whole heap of automatic programs in our brain that actually are very detrimental to how we perform. And you might sort of have an old coach or an old sort of other person you’ve coached… trained against that has mentioned a few really sort of important comments that probably didn’t stick with you that well and maybe left a little bit of a negative effect in your brain that you now unconsciously believe is true. And exercise… so breathing exercise like this, part of what it’s trying to do it to uproot some of those laid down programs. And like you said, when you’re in the breathing method, what’s happening is it’s changing a little bit of body chemistry that’s altering some of your brain processing, and it’s allowing some of the sort of locked in emotions that we hold against ourself to be released out of the system.

Darren: So commonly, during this energy breath, if we sustain it for long enough, we can actually get to a point where we can feel our body releasing some of these emotions. And sometimes, like you said, it is absolutely laughter. And I’ve been in one class myself where one girl started laughing, and then another girl started laughing, and then I’m laughing. And the whole twelve of us are in absolutely hysterics. And we are all still breathing, trying to get through it. And then, that wafts off. And then, before you know it, someone in the corner’s crying. Someone’s [inaudible 00:43:04]. And then, the mood changes. That group energy is incredible when you’re doing breath work. But you can achieve all of that sort of stuff in your own space, doing your own breath work as well. And basically, your own emotional energy then gets a chance to come out.

Darren: And we sort of hear a lot of people talk about they feel a bit blocked or they feel like something in the background is holding them back. Some guys or girls… shouldn’t limit it to just guys… people in general feel like they’ve got some pent up aggression or bottled up emotions. And some of those things have come from real life traumas that are actually completely real. And their body hasn’t been able to get rid of those traumas at the time. And they’re sitting as little things in their body that actually don’t benefit them, that actually sort of work against them. So a lot of those little things you can feel definitely in some of these breath work sessions.

Brenton: And we’re going to… we’re going to record another podcast, a more advanced breath work podcast. But we wanted to kind of do this one first so you could give the introduction to breath work. And I think… a lot of this stuff is still… for people who are new to it, will seem quite advanced, and it’s all new. But we’re going to do a follow-up podcast for this. And for those that are listening, let them know where your classes are, how they can get involved with those because I highly recommend them. And I’ve done a couple so far, and I’m going to be doing quite a few more because it is such a… really beneficial. But I think… I really think there’s a lot there as well, just for improved performance but also mentally as well. It really sort of covers all the bases with it. So do you want to let people know where they can find you a little bit more about those courses?

Darren: Yeah, sure, so I run the sessions out of our physiotherapy clinic, which is called Dynamic Stability. We’ve had Dynamic Stability now for about 19 years in the Richmond area and about… another clinic for about 10 years down in Ripponlea, just of Glen Eira road. And so, we sort of devote… we devote a day or even some weekends to these breath work classes out of the physio clinic. I have an Instagram page, which is DynamicBreathWork. And what I try to do on that page is just to be continually giving people little snippets, positive affirmations, different breath work sort of ideas and techniques, and then just let… keep people updated basically on all of the different sort of classes that we run.

Darren: I sort of divide the training up into a bit of level one, level two, level three. So everyone sort of attends a level one class just once. And that gives them a bit of this information, a bit of the basics about what breath work’s about and how it can affect you and give you a few take home messages. And then, the level two work is about then practically practicing all these techniques and learning some sequences that you can do at home to different playlists. And I normally sort of run that as a four-week course covering… it’s a little bit of different emphasis on all the different techniques. And then, the level three class is a little bit more about the energy breath where people have been through a range of the techniques. And then, what they do is they embark on a full class of the energy breath where they’re really doing that as an energy clearing technique and just to take their skill level to another level.

Darren: So if you sort of look up… there’s links on our website, DynamicStability.com.au. If you scroll down, you’ll see some of the Dynamic Breathwork page. Or you can just go straight to our Instagram page, which is DynamicBreathWork, and have a little look at all the different sort of stuff I’ve got on there for you.

Brenton: Excellent, well, thanks again for being on the podcast Darren. And once this podcast goes out, we’ll… we can use some of the questions that we get from that and answer them in the second podcast. So thanks again mate. And I’ll put all those links in the show notes and looking forward to that next podcast.

Darren: All right. Thanks Brenton.

Breathwork is not a new thing. You know, it’s been around in yoga for years and it’s been around in all sorts of things, you know, even as far as people learning during pregnancy to breathe properly. But what I found is like the breathwork is not really delivered these days in a way that’s easy for everyone to be part of and everyone to take home from the breathwork exactly what suits that person best. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast, the show that helps swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to episode number 139 of the Effortless Swimming Podcast. This episode is how to hijack your breathing to control your emotions and increase your performance. And my guest today is Darren Stojanovic from Dynamic Stability. And Darren is a physiotherapist but he’s also doing a lot of work in breathwork, which is breathing. And I’ve gone along to some of Darren’s classes

where he is teaching you how to use your breath to not only control your emotions, but also to improve your health and increase your performance in sport and also in life and in work. And you might think that that sounds like a lot to do with just breathing. That’s a lot that you can improve by just changing the way that you breathe. But by going through some of these classes and some of these courses with Darren, I’ve noticed a big difference across all of those things. And you’re about to learn what some of those breathing techniques are, when to apply them and how to apply them. So I’m sure you’ll enjoy this episode with Darren as we talk about some of the benefits of it, but more importantly, how you can use it to improve your day and improve your performance in the pool. We’ve just added a whole range of new clinics for 2020. So if you are in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Nusa or Perth, we’ve just added some new freestyle clinics

that will be running up until April next year. So jump on to effortless swimming.com, click on the clinics and camps link and you’ll find the freestyle clinics there. So if you’d like to come and work with myself or other coaches, where we’ll do underwater filming, we’ll analyze your stroke and we’ll let you know exactly what it is that you can do to swim faster and we’ll give you that roadmap to improve. Then you can join us in an upcoming freestyle clinic. Let’s get into the podcast. So Darren, first of all, welcome to the podcast and we’ve been wanting to sort of talk about this stuff for a little while, but finally got you on. So thanks for joining me. No problem. Thanks for having me on. Well, we, I mean, we’ve known each other for a couple of years, just kind of three triathlon and being in Melbourne scene, but I’ve sort of been interested in breath work for a little while, but never really learnt too much about it.

And you contacted me a couple of months ago and said, I’ve started to run these breath work courses out of your practice, would I like to come along? And so I came along to a couple of those classes and found them, my eyes were really open to the power of breath work and some of the benefits of it. And I’m only sort of scratching the surface really, but I’m looking forward to learning a lot more. And that’s what we’re gonna talk about on today’s podcast. So I think first of all, like, how did you come about, how did you learn about this stuff and find out about it? Yeah, well, thanks, Brenton. Well, my main background as a physio, I’ve been working as a physio for probably about 20 years now. And my involvement probably in triathlon over the past sort of five to 10 years has sort of led me to the point where I’m sort of looking for new things to enhance performance. And not just on a physical sort of level, but a little bit on that sort of mind, body,

sort of mental approach. And a couple of years ago, I came across guys that live up in Gold Coast and they came down, they work under the company Breathe Me. And they came down to Melbourne and sort of ran a little bit of a class for my staff. And a few other people. And that very first session that I did with them, I just was completely blown away on the intensity of the breath work. And how incredible you felt after you’ve done a session and the changes that had in your body physically as well as mentally.

And so then after that, then I sort of had a bit of a chance to sort of reflect on it and chatted more to these guys and then I organised sort of regular monthly sessions at my clinic at Dynamics Stability. And I invited all my clients and various people to come along to these sessions once a week. And for a whole year we ran monthly sessions, getting sort of 30 to 50 people in this one day in for classes and just had pretty incredible results with all my client base and decided then to pursue it a bit further beyond that. And you’ve kind of dove, you’ve dove really deep into all the different kinds of breath work and I guess through all of that and learning all these different types of techniques, it seems like you’ve kind of put them together and come up with your own way of teaching it and taking your clients through it. Is that a fair summary of what you’re doing now in these breath work classes? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, breath work is not a new thing. You know, it’s been around in yoga for years and it’s been around in all sorts of things, you know, even as far as people learning during pregnancy to breathe properly. But what I found is like the breath work is not really delivered these days in a way that’s easy for everyone to be part of and everyone to take home from the breath work exactly what suits that person best. Now you have your athletes, then you have your people that are suffering from anxiety and depression and then you have your sort of people that are in chronic pain and then you have a whole lot of other people that are doing it just well being. So, you know, my idea is to sort of learn a lot of the different breath techniques, you know, package them together in a way that people can come to a class and they can experience more than just one style and really learn like what breath pattern resonates well for them.

Still practice all of them, but you know, they get a bit of an idea of getting one area they can really focus on and then really developing an appreciation for all the different styles of breathing that you can do and how it can benefit your body. And let’s talk about how breath work can alter the body’s systems and how can someone start to implement this in their day-to-day life like, so what does it look like for you? How often are you doing it and how long does it have to go for to get a benefit? Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I suppose when we look at the body, you know, there’s all our organs, you know, our brain function, all that stuff. And one sort of really interesting thing is our lungs are actually one of the crucial organs in the body that can run itself on automatic pilot without us thinking, but we can also take complete voluntary control over that system. You know, we can make some changes to heart rate,

but really, you know, our organs and our heart and things beat away and carry on a little bit in the background without us able to gain control over it. And mentally, you know, we can do some positive affirmations and make changes to our thoughts and things, but our breathing is something that’s a lot more tangible for how we can take control over that system. And so by doing that, you know, we can actually make quite radical changes to our whole organ network because they’re all very interconnected energetically. And we have sort of, you know, a nerve called the vagus nerve which sort of runs from the head through the body, you know, goes through the lungs, goes through every organ in the body, goes to our digestion. And it is like the, you know, the connecting unit that sort of connects all these organs together. And one talks to the other and when one changes function, it alters the function in the other area.

So I suppose with that knowledge, you know, if we can actually, you know, hijack our breathing system, you know, we can actually make changes to our whole network, you know, whole body just by altering how we breathe. And if we’re trying to make dramatic changes to that, we can actually breathe with some pretty intense breathing patterns to actually bring about changes in our blood, alkalinity, changes in our mental function, you know, calming our nervous system, waking our nervous system up. We’ll make changes to our kidney function, liver function, even to the point where we all change inflammatory markers in our body to alter inflammation. And, you know, we can work on these techniques on a daily basis to make a big change. And what I like about when I was doing one of your classes was you explain the science behind it. And because you say, you know, changing the way you breathe can alter all of these things.

It’s like, yeah, okay, maybe. But there’s a lot of science to it and there’s been a lot of study into it. And that’s what I really liked about the class because I think for me at least, like with that knowledge and that, with that knowledge of the sort of science behind it, it helps me buy into the belief and the importance of it. But then obviously when you do the breathing, it really, you feel it, you experience it and you get a really, you really notice a difference. And some of the feelings that I had going through those breathing exercises, like it’s really can be a natural high and you can have some really bizarre and out there kind of feelings and experiences in the body just by doing these breathing exercises. I mean, in terms of how it can help people, what are some of the results that you’ve seen people have as a result of the breathing?

Well, yeah, sure. So some of the important things that it can help you with is on a basic, you know, physiological level, it can actually really improve the efficiency of someone’s breathing. And I don’t think, you know, if you analyze most people’s breathing techniques, we’d be actually breathing very efficiently. So especially with respect to swimmers that are so involved in how the oxygen exchange and their use of their diaphragm. So you can have massive benefits on teaching people how they’re over-breathing, how they’re over-utilizing certain parts of their lungs and under-utilizing certain parts and really improve their efficiency of breathing.

For me, definitely what I’ve noticed is just the better breath technique can actually help you with your connecting to your core. You know, we also know we need our core to power some of our stroke. And I think getting a little bit better efficiency in your breath pattern can really help you with that connection and later get better power delivering to your stroke by giving you a better connection to your core muscles, which are really generating a lot of this breath pattern.

I’ve also found, so just with, you know, neck and back soreness, you know, if you’re breathing a little bit out of sync, you know, your swim stroke starts to impact on neck pain and back pain. And then, you know, relaxing in the water a bit better and really calming your breath and getting good breathing rhythm can have enormous improvements to do with sort of back pain and neck pain. And I think just general diaphragm conditioning as well, you know, we obviously, you know, as athletes, you know, we do breathe and do get better performances with our breath rhythm, but I think, you know, really learning to isolate the diaphragm and get great conditioning and endurance in the diaphragm muscle can have really dramatic improvements in your stroke and your timing. And then we sort of, you know, as physios, we work a lot with people, sort of thoracic spine and back mobility and joint mobility and ribs. And I think, you know, there’s so many swimming drills

that really require a certain amount of thoracic mobility and back mobility to do correctly. And if you think about our breath mechanism, like you really, it’s completely related to how we store tension in our ribs and whether we use our intercostal muscles correctly, whether we actually have mobility through the upper back where we can gain rotation and movement through the whole spinal area. So, you know, these repeated work on the breath patterns can have really dramatic effects on back mobility, you know, upper neck tension. And I think then beyond that, you know, mentally when people have actually finished training, you know, your body is wide up from exercise. And one thing I’ve noticed is when I get out of the pool, especially if I do an evening session, I’m not going to sleep in a hurry. I’m awake for hours and hours and my system is, you know, is revved up. And one major thing that breath work can do

is actually really start to calm your nervous system. It helps you switch on what we call our parasympathetic nervous system. It’s an automatic system in the body, but it governs all of our rest and regeneration and our recovery properties. So we can do a certain breath technique where we help to switch off our fight or flight and we switch on our parasympathetic nervous system. And what that does is actually helps our body dial down the stress response that happens through exercise and bring on the recovery phase that is required for sleeping. And therefore, enabling us to calm down our nervous system after intense exercise and help our body slip into that recovery mode. And therefore, you know, have much better sleep patterns and get into deeper restorative sleep. And when we’re in Thailand for our Halloween camps in October, I took their groups through this, I think most mornings, I did some of the exercises that I learnt at your classes

and just got them to lie down for 10 to 15 minutes going through a couple of these exercises. And I think one of the most obvious differences that I saw doing that was in the technique session. So on the first day, we do filming and analysis. The second day in the morning, we take them through some drills and exercises to improve their stroke. And before that, I got them to go through these breathing exercises. And what often happens when people are going through drills is they really want to make these changes. So they tend to be very tense and they try and force it and they’re not really relaxed because they’re concentrating so hard on the changes. But what this breathing did was, it just got them in this state of mind where they were very calm, their breathing was relaxed and it’s from that place where it’s so much easier to make changes to your stroke. And that’s probably the best results I’ve seen in terms of improving technique

within that session that we’ve ever had. And I put a lot of that down to the breathing that we did at the start because it got them in the right frame of mind and it got them breathing relaxed. It got, I guess, the body and the mental state in a place where they could really make the changes. So it was noticeably different. And that was just one of the differences. But boy, it really helped. And it’s something that I’m gonna continue to do. Yeah, I think on that note, like one major thing with breath work is learning in your body are peak state. So peak state is very much characterized by that optimum arousal. Now, none of us will swim well by being really relaxed and none of us will swim well by being overstimulated. And each person’s optimal arousal is slightly different. You know, the occasional athlete will really need to be revved up a bit and some will need to be really calmed down to get the most out of them.

So one thing that does happen with breath work is that when you’re going through the exercises on your own, you are learning in your own body the different feelings of what it feels to be really relaxed, what it feels to be sort of revved up a little bit. And you can learn in your own body where it is that your body sits when it gets to peak state. And I think I’ve always experienced like the occasional swim where you feel like you’re un-fatigable, but there’s no effort. It’s just all happening, it’s all flowing. And that’s a characteristic of peak state. And they talk about athletes learn over time to bring themselves to that peak state, but it’s not often a technique that people are taught to do. We just accidentally end up there and we think, wow, that was a great session. And then for months, now you’re trying to find that peak state again. You had no idea how you got there.

Yeah, so it’s a good point to bring up because I think it’s sort of, it is a skill and it is an awareness as well. And people connecting to that mental state is an important thing. Yeah, and it’s like there’s some really, going through some of the breathing exercises which we’ll talk about in a moment, we’ll give some examples of those types of breathing. There’s some really strange experiences. Like you sort of prefaced some of the classes with as we go through some of these exercises, you might feel some pretty extreme emotions. Some happy, some sad. You might feel like your body’s tingling. You might, like for me, my face in some of the breathing exercises where we’re really, really lifting and breathing right out. Like my face was all contorted and like this really weird, I’m glad I didn’t have like a camera on me because it would have looked really bizarre but like I couldn’t control what my face was doing.

Then at other times with some of the exercises I was, I couldn’t stop myself from smiling. Like it was just really bizarre. So can you talk a little bit about like why that is and like what some of these things are that can happen as you’re going through them? Yeah, sure. Well, first thing sort of just to note is like when we look a bit deeper on the different breathing techniques we sort of realized that our whole nervous system is sort of divided into and we have a whole autonomic system. One is our sympathetic nervous system which is governing all of our fight or flight. You know, when we’re exercising, when we’re pushing a little bit, our blood pressure sort of increases, the heart rate increases, we get hormones injected into our bloodstream to promote exercise and fight or flight. And then we have the opposite which is the other half of our autonomic nervous system which is our parasympathetic system. And that system sort of governs

that rest of the generation I was talking about before which helps to lower your heart rate. And it also helps to sort of bring on muscle repair, decrease inflammation, get you to sleep, you know, put you in all of that sort of really meditative state. So there’s going to be forever a balance between these two systems that we’re working with. And then when we do some of the breathing exercises, we can actually breathe in a particular way to stimulate the sympathetic response or breathe in a way to stimulate the regenerative response. So as a general rule, you know, during our inhale, we’re actually stimulating the sympathetic response, our sort of fight or flight. And then during the exhale phase, we’re actually promoting our rest and regeneration a little bit. So you can imagine we breathe in a particular style where we’re emphasizing the inhale breath. We will be raising that vibrational energy in the body

up and up and up and up to a level that it will become quite strong. If we’re breathing in a way that we’re investing in the exhale breath, what we’ll be doing is actually really helping calm the system down and actually change brainwave patterns and put you into much more of a calmer sort of situation where you may feel like you are going so calm that you’re not falling asleep, but you’re sort of almost for yourself drifting off in a certain place. And so in some of the classes that you’ve done is what we’ve done is we mix up those breath rhythms and give people a chance to feel all the dynamics of the body. So, you know, what we can start with is quite a calming sort of breath, which is like a circular breath. So if you imagine drawing on a blackboard, you know, a circle like a clock face, you can imagine that when you breathe in and move around the clock face, you can think about your breathing from sort of six o’clock at the base

and breathing around past nine o’clock all the way up to 12. And in your mind’s eye, you can imagine taking five seconds to breathe your breath from the bottom all the way to the top. And then without pausing, then breathe out and then visualize yourself moving down through one o’clock, down through three o’clock. And then when you arrive all the way back at the base, you imagine you’ve arrived back at six o’clock. And if you can take five seconds to do the inhale breath and take five seconds to do the exhale breath, what you’re doing is putting almost equal importance on both the breath patterns and therefore creating a calming effect on the nervous system and allowing your body to switch in to a really good state, not over aroused, under aroused, but in a way sort of getting a perfect harmony within the body. And there’s been sort of talk about that breath pattern being called what we sometimes call a heart resonance breath.

And what it does is to really help energetically the brain and the lungs and the heart start to move into the same energetic rhythm. I think probably all of us sort of found moments in our life where we sort of feel a little bit out of sorts. Now, commonly that’s a bit related to these organs in the body not being on the same energetic level and not connecting and talking well to each other. So there’s no way our heart beats without connecting to our lungs. And there’s no way our lungs breathe without some input from the brain. And all these organs actually have constant little highways that go between them and they all have messages that are going back and forth, giving feedback on what’s happening in the lungs, giving feedback on what’s happening in the heart, even giving feedback on what thoughts and emotions are being felt. And so when we breathe in that first breath circular pattern, the five in five out,

or actually creating the best harmonizing breath to put all those organs together so they sink and they talk to each other well and they all harmonize on a similar vibrational frequency level. So that’s a bit of that optimum state.

And so would you recommend that kind of breathing for like someone who’s, let’s say they’re driving in there, their car on the way to the pool, would that be a good type of breathing to do on the way to training? Yeah, it is a good breathing. Like I sort of say to people, like it can be a bit of your go-to breath, it’ll suit everyone. Definitely if you’ve had a busy day at work and your mind’s racing, that breath pattern will help you stay attentive, so driving is safe. But it also allows you to gain a little bit of control over the rhythm and you’ll calm down the nervous system after a bad day or after a day of a few arguments or whatever it might be. And you’ll arrive at the pool, then much more able to listen to instructions and much more able to process the cues and the things that are being told to you. Because commonly in different brain states, you might suggest someone to keep their elbow in a particular position

or have their hands placed in a certain angle. They’ll hear the words, but because of a brain state, it’ll mean nothing to their body. So they’ll dive back in and they’re like, they’ll have no connection really to your instructions. Whereas if they’re in a mental state that is processing, well, whatever words come in will mean something very quickly to them and they’ll be able to activate that neuromuscular process quickly because they’re in that optimum sort of arousal state. That’s good. And move beyond that, like where we actually sort of changed that breath pattern which is sort of what you’re talking about and doing a few other styles. And we’ve got a couple of other ones sort of written down here and that we went through in the class. So we’ll talk a little bit about those other styles. So we’ve got box breathing, triangle breathing and then talk about the energy breathing. So what’s the difference there and what’s the purpose behind these other styles?

Yeah, sure. So the box breath, I sort of liken that to our breath. You would imagine like a sniper would be using. You know, a sniper needs to be kept extremely calm but also needs to be highly on alert. So if you imagine the mix of that is almost like our peak state feeling. You know, we don’t wanna get too calm, we don’t wanna get too relaxed but we also wanna be paying attention and be absolutely at the ready. So the box breath starts to bring in a little bit of that where what we do is we visualize moving around a box shape and when you breathe in you can give yourself rising up to the top of the box and then when you get to the top of the box you just gently without too much tension hold your breath in for the same number of seconds that you breathed in for. So we can start at roughly four seconds if you’d like. Someone take a four second breath in then they’d hold their breath in for four seconds and then they just nicely breathe out

so their breath out took four seconds and then once they finish their breath out what they’re gonna practice is just staying calm and relaxed and rested at the end of their breath out and just pause. So we’re not sort of clamping our breath and holding on for dear life. Now what we actually sometimes doing is imagining like you are continuing to mentally breathe out during that pause and then just keep seeing yourself go around the box four seconds inhale, four seconds holding the breath in four seconds to steadily breathe out and then four seconds to just pause and rest at the bottom of the breath out. And then people can develop that. You can develop that to five seconds on each section up six certain breath classes we try to build that to eight or 10. We’re actually trying to breathe so slow that imagine 10 seconds to breathe in, 10 seconds to hold 10 seconds to breathe out and 10 seconds to pause is actually taking like about 40 seconds.

So it means the person might only be doing a couple of breaths a minute which is an incredibly slow rate of which over time you can build up to. And imagine for a swimmer what that means you know that means they have the ability this like it’s almost like the dexterity of an opera singer now you’re giving to the diaphragm and that swimmer then has the ability to know they can control the rhythm of their breath and control the timing and they can actually get an even structure in their breath rhythm. So there’s no emphasis on the breathing in being more important or the exhale being more important that actually helped to develop. And like we talked about the box shape imagine if it’s gone from say four on each section and now it’s six and now it’s eight and then maybe it’s 10 can you see how that breath square the box is actually expanding? So in the person’s mind’s eye they’re seeing their lung volume getting bigger

and bigger and bigger and just feels like you then have this unlimited ability to use your lungs which clearly is an advantage in swimming. Yeah, I like the analogy or the name for it like a sniper breath like it’s a good for me that’s a good way to remember when would you use this type of breathing? And one of the immediate

almost immediate sort of benefits and the things that I noticed was when I trained for the couple of weeks around those sessions that I did the breathing felt easier but I didn’t have to think about it like the breathing just naturally improved and so I was able to sort of have this higher output for no extra effort like I was just able to sit at this faster pace without feeling that to be taxing on the aerobic system so it happens pretty quickly because it’s something that most people aren’t training and like with most exercises you do if you do a little bit of it that you notice quite a big benefit fairly immediately. Yeah, definitely I mean I’ve got people that come in they might even walk in the room stressed and we’ll leave an hour for the class but within like five minutes you see their system just drop away and calm right down so you can get enormous improvements with this stuff if you just put your mind to it

and spend like 60 seconds doing a particular breath style and really what I’m trying to do with these classes is encourage people in their normal everyday life just arrive five minutes early to something you need to do or just take two minutes out lunchtime as you finish work every day take another two minutes out and make all these breath sequences just part of your normal everyday life and start to see the dramatic changes you can have to your whole day. And the triangle breathing? Yeah, so then now that we understand a bit of the purpose of the box breathing and we talked before about the inhale breath having a little bit of a focus on our fight or flight so our sympathetic response which also we need, we don’t wanna turn up to a meeting

looking like our eyes are popping out of our head and we’re half asleep, we don’t wanna be too relaxed so it’s important we know how to upscale our energy when we need it. So the idea of the triangle breath is you imagine now change your box breath to a triangle shape and what you can imagine if you can breathe in to the top of your inhale and actually only hold the inhale breath so therefore it becomes a triangle shape because then once you’re finished holding your breath in you just steadily breathe out, breathing out to the bottom but then when you get to the bottom of your exhale you just breathe in again without a pause. So you might repeat five to 10 triangle breath where you hold the inhale breath and that way expanding the inhale side and then imagine then the triangle breath that is flipped the other way you could actually then be holding the exhale breath so we’d breathe in steadily without a pause we’d breathe out

and then when we get to the bottom of the exhale breath we would then just stop and rest and we’d really invest in the exhale pause and try to send we sometimes think about, okay Al we already talked about that vagus nerve sending messages around the body you can imagine the way you breathe you are sending signals and messages to every cell in the body even as far as the blood vessels in your feet you are sending messages down to every structure so if you’re gonna breathe in a particular triangle breath when you’re doing the breath out pause what you can visualize is that breath out pause is sending that little emotional message through the nervous system and it’s being seen and heard by every cell in the body the brain cells, the heart cells you know our digestive cells right down to all the blood vessels that are in our body adjusting towards what we’re doing and you can think about the quality of the message

that you send so if we take a triangle breath breathe in breathe out and I’m sort of holding my breath under stress then I’m not sending the best message am I what we wanna be doing is like actually really investing in that breath out pause and even visualizing our self on holidays and imagine that moment when you get on holidays and you see the banana lounge and you lay down on that banana lounge and go you know what I’ve got a whole week ahead of me here with no one’s gonna pester me when you breathe out and land that banana lounge you breathe out in a particular way and you really emotionally invest in the idea that you don’t have to get off that banana lounge for a whole week if you really don’t want to so we try to bring into the breath pattern is like make people don’t just physically breathe in and out in and out and count your numbers actually try to then emotionally invest in what you’re trying to achieve

and during that one we’re trying to invest in the exhale pause and a great breath technique for those of people that wanna calm themselves down you know maybe prepare yourself for sleep it’s probably the example breath of what we talked about before about aft training of calming the system down so you might be a bit wide up so if we go into our triangle breath where we breathe out pause we’re actually continually signaling the parasympathetic system and like I said then if we emotionally invest in the quality of how we breathe out pause and we can even visualize some calm things and then bring the mind into it as well all we’re gonna do is to create an enormous effect on the parasympathetic system to switch off all of our fight or flight and switch on all our regeneration and within a very short space of time you’re gonna be feeling extremely different calm down ready for sleep or even just calm down after you’ve got yourself worked up about something.

This is good so we’ve got we’ve spoken about the circular breathing which is we’ve mentioned is the heart resonance breath or almost like you go to breath during the day we’ve got the box breathing which is like the sniper breath where it sort of prepares you almost at peak state the triangle breathing which is can help you almost like the after training breath when you want to sort of quiet and everything down and now that the last one we’ve got here is the energy breath so do you wanna talk a bit about the energy breathing? Yeah so we’ll talk about that one today you know that this breath sort of probably falls under in my mind some of the advanced categories and definitely an incredible breath and if you’re going to some more advanced breath classes that you may see advertised around the place they probably utilize a little bit this breath rhythm where what we’re trying to do is to generally raise the bodily energy

and if you think about like if we put something in the microwave to heat it up what we’re actually doing is putting food in the microwave the microwaves are creating a change in the vibration of the molecules in the frozen food and by passing the microwaves through what they’re doing is they’re vibrating via inputting energy they’re vibrating all the cells of the food till the cells are vibrating at a faster pace and that’s what’s creating the heat so what we’re actually doing in our own body is we’re breathing in a way to raise vibrational energy in the cells, in the whole bodily structure if you think back to how you feel when you’ve got the flu or when you’re recovering from the flu and your body feels heavy and dead and everything is like is stiff and sore that’s a bit like poor vibrational energy that’s what we feel like when we’re just flat and nothing is active so imagine doing a breath class where you practice some of these different techniques

and then when it’s time what you do is move into an energy breath where you start to play with that working the inhale breath but relaxing the exhale breath and when you continue to create this circular energy breath what you actually do is you continually raise the vibrational energy of the body to the point where you are waking up dormant areas in the body and you are increasing this sort of energy flow throughout the whole system and I quite often think about the science of Chinese medicine how we know how all the meridians go from the body they go down the arms, they go into the feet it’s been a known fact for years that they work off that theory and then we talk a little bit about our chakra levels like our heart chakra, our crown chakra you know, our base chakra of being more like energy vortex levels within the body and there’s sort of seven main ones of those and a lot of smaller ones so I quite often think about

when I’m doing some of these energy breaths that I’m gradually just building the energy that is available in the system and what our body does is actually utilize that energy in the areas that it needs it pushing it to the fingers, pushing it to the toes pushing it through the periphery to open up areas that have been blocked and we can have some amazingly profound experiences during these energy breaths where our whole body starts to wake up my interesting sort of approach there is like I’ve had quite a few clients that have been sent to me with chronic pain and the definition of chronic pain is really that there are areas of pain in your body that have no reason to be sore you don’t have pathology or injuries associated with these sort of areas and there are nerves that are just lighting up for no real major reason and they are causing a stimulus back to your brain and your brain is picking up this stimulus as pain

as an injury or something like that but there’s no actual injured side so what actually happens interestingly in this energy breath is imagine these people going to this energy breath and all of a sudden their chronic pain sites are lit up they can feel the neck pain they can feel the back pain they can feel all the pains that they live with day to day that really have no reason to be sore and what’s happening in that instance is the bodily energy is building up where these overactive nerve cells that are firing off these pain signals actually light up in their system now you can either choose to fidget round or stop breathing because you’ve got pain but then mentally when you realize that your body does not have anything actually wrong with it and all you’ve got to do is lace fill and keep breathing eventually what you do is you deprogram these sensitized nerve endings and nerve structures to the fact that okay there’s actually nothing wrong

maybe it’s time just to calm down and over repeated sessions what happens is the person doesn’t get these pathway patterns lit up and what happens they then dampen down their chronic pain and they can then live their normal life without these pain signals being generated

I really like the analogy of the microwave and that’s literally kind of how it feels like the cells in your body are vibrating like it really feels that way and then yeah interesting with the people with chronic pain and do you find that some people they get to that point where they’re feeling that pain doing the breathing exercises to some of them obviously they’d probably want to back off they’d want to just stop breathing because it’s causing them pain but do you talk to them beforehand and let them know like this is probably what you’ll experience so if you’re comfortable you should continue breathing through it because this is the result you’ll get yeah look definitely and look and what we’re talking about here is energy breath this is I mean this is probably one of the most powerful things that you can do to your body I mean we can pop a few vitamins and have a massage or have a stretch or go for a run you know people might think this breathing

is quite a subtle thing of which it is but this actual technique when people get involved in it is definitely I liken it to those catcher brushes when you’ve got some oil on your driveway and you go out there and you get one of those high pressure water turbo things and when you turn it on the water pressure coming out of that thing is immense and when you blast the concrete you know you get off years of dirt off that thing so this energy breath is really in my mind a bit like taking to your body with one of those catcher brushes and I’ve talked about it on a physical level so far but really the main approach here is on a mental level of what we’re doing is actually sort of helping our body block and clear out certain blockages in the brain and like you said you know like people do approach a lot of these techniques of when things get a little bit tough like the idea is oh look I better give up better back off here

and I suppose that’s where some of the isomersion work comes in after this sort of work or in addition to this work where some of the Wim Hof technique where people have actually then keep going with this energy breath and then they move to dunking themselves in the ice and then if you’ve ever heard your brain tell you to get out you’ll definitely hear it then all our automatic subliminal programs that are in our brain that tell us all sorts of stuff you know on a small subtle level for the swimmers it might be the bit you know all the can’t do’s you know like I can’t do that time or I can’t stay in the pool for long enough or I can’t execute that stroke pattern all of those things are really automatic programs that are embedded in our brain and some of those programs actually help us live I mean we’ve probably experienced the sort of times where sometimes we’ve been driving home and you know we’re busy thinking about something

and then something we realized oh wow turning in the driveway you know we’ve actually managed to get home with very little conscious thought of what we’re doing and what they actually use is all those incredible automatic processes that are in our body that can run our life and run for us a program like getting home, making a coffee or doing something in our work life that we can do pretty easily but on the flip side like we can have a whole heap of automatic programs in our brain that actually are very detrimental to how we perform and you might sort of have an old coach or an old sort of you know other person you’ve coached or trained against that has mentioned a few really sort of important comments that probably didn’t stick with you that well and maybe left a little bit of a negative effect in your brain that you now unconsciously believe is true and so breathing exiles like this part of what it’s trying to do is to uproot

some of those laid-down programs and like you said when you’re in the breathing method what’s happening is it’s changing a little bit of body chemistry that’s altering some of your brain processes and it’s allowing some of the sort of locked in emotions that we hold against ourselves to be released out of the system so commonly during this energy breath if we sustain it for long enough you know we can actually get to a point where we can feel our body releasing some of these emotions and sometimes like you said it is absolutely laughter and I’ve been in one class myself where you know one girl started laughing and then another girl started laughing then I’m laughing and the whole 12 of us in absolute hysterics like and we are all still breathing trying to get through it and then you know that wafts off and then before you know it’s someone in the corner is crying and then like and then the mood changes now that group energy is incredible

when you do breath work but you can achieve all of that sort of stuff in your own space doing your own breath work as well and basically your own emotional energy then gets a chance to come out and we sort of hear a lot of people talk about they feel a bit blocked or they feel like you know something in the background is holding them back you know you have some guys you know all girls you know should limit it to just guys you know people in general like you know feel like they’ve got some pent up aggression or bottled up emotions and some of those things have come from real life traumas that are actually completely real and their body hasn’t been able to get rid of those traumas at the time and they’re sitting as little things in their body that actually don’t benefit them that actually sort of work against them so a lot of those little things you can feel definitely in some of these breath work sessions and we’re going to record another podcast

a more advanced breath work podcast but we wanted to kind of do this one first so you could give the introduction to breath work and I think I mean a lot of this stuff is still for people who are new to it will seem quite advanced and it’s all new but we’re gonna do a follow up podcast for this and for those that are listening let them know where your classes are how they can get involved with those because I highly recommend them and I’ve done a couple so far and I’m gonna be doing quite a few more because it is such a, I mean really beneficial but I really think there’s a lot there as well just for improved performance but also mentally as well like it really sort of covers all the bases with it so if you wanna let people know where they can find you and a little bit more about those courses. Yeah, sure. So I run the sessions out of our physiotherapy clinic which is called Dynamic Stability. We’ve had Dynamic Stability now for about 19 years

in the Richmond area and about another clinic for about 10 years down in Rippon Lee, just off Glenora Road and so we sort of devote, we devote a day or even some weekends to these breath work classes out of the physioclinic. I have an Instagram page which is Dynamic Breathwork and what I try to do on that page is just to be continually giving people little snippets, positive affirmations, different breathwork sort of ideas and techniques and then just let keep people updated basically on all the different sort of classes that we run. You know, I sort of try to divide the training up into a bit of level one, level two, level three so everyone sort of attends like a level one class just once and that gives them a bit of this information, bit of the basics about what breathwork’s about and how it can affect you and give you a few take home messages and then the level two work is about them practically practicing all these techniques

and learning some sequences that you can do at home to different playlists and I normally sort of run that as a four week course covering sort of a little bit of different emphasis on all the different techniques and then the level three class is a little bit more about the energy breath where people have been through a range of the techniques and then what they do is they embark on a full class on the energy breath where they’re really doing that as an energy clearing technique and just to take their skill level to another level. So if you sort of look up, there’s links on our website dynamicstability.com.au If you scroll down, you’ll see some of the dynamic breathwork page or you can just go straight to our Instagram page which is dynamic breathwork and have a little look at all the different sort of stuff I’ve got on there for you. Excellent. Well, thanks again for being on the podcast, Aaron. And once this podcast goes out,

we can use some of the questions that we get from that and answer them in the second podcast. So thanks again, mate. And I’ll put all those links in the show notes and looking forward to that next podcast. All right. Thanks, Brendan. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.

The post Hijack Your Breathing, Control Your Emotions And Increase Your Performance With Darren Stojanovic appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

Ryan Hodierne is the Biomechanist for NSWIS (New South Wales Institute of Sport). He has worked with a lot of high-level swimmers including Cate and Bronte Campbell, and we talk about how everyday swimmers can use high-level biomechanics to improve their swimming.

01:06 Thoughts about Sensarii
02:31 Simplifying Data To Make It Useful
05:02 Communicating With Swimmers And Coaches
09:31 Putting Fundamentals In Place First
10:59 “We are a Proof To The Coach If What He Is Doing Is Right or Wrong”
13:16 Providing Expectations To Athletes
17:46 Visual Learning
18:28 Contrast Drills
22:18 Kick Is More Effective If It Is Tied In With A Stroke
23:21 Drills For Connecting The Timing Of The Kick And Stroke
28:05 Timing Goes A Long Way
31:38 Connecting The Purpose Of The Drill To The Swim Stroke
34:20 Consistency
35:21 Leave The Watch In Your Gear Bag

Online Stroke Analysis And Coaching For Swimmers And Triathletes

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Transcription:

Brenton Ford: Welcome to episode 138 of The Effortless Swimming podcast. My guest today is Ryan Hodierne, who is the biomechanist for NSWIS, which the New South Wales Institute of Sport. And the title for this episode is High-Level Biomechanics for Weekend Warriors.

Brenton Ford: Ryan you work with a very high level of swimmer. What I want to chat today about is everything that you do with those top-level guys, but how people who are maybe training for a triathlon or swimming, they might be swimming two or three times a week, how can they apply some of the stuff that you work on to their own swimming. First of all, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me.

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, great. Cheers. Thanks for having me on.

Brenton Ford: The way that we got introduced was we’re both advisors for a company called Sensari, which are developing a pretty cool power … Not power meter but a device that measures the force and the direction of the force for swimmers, so that’s how we got introduced. We’ve both had the chance to test that stuff out. There’s some pretty cool stuff that’s coming out of that. What were your thoughts on the device and how do you see it being used?

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah. Well, I obviously showed a lot of interest in the device to start off with. I know there are means of obviously extrapolating similar types of information from other devices, but this device just seemed to hit home to me because they had obviously spent a heap of time through the phase of R&D to produce something out the backend that would make a difference to swimming. So just looking at it and the way they’re actually displaying a lot of the information or the output that was coming from there, from pressure sensors on the hand, just made sense to me. Yeah, we show a keen interest in that. Obviously trying to push it more, not necessarily just routine use like a [holocrack 00:01:54] might. But ultimately trying to jazz up the device. That it’s actually going to give us the more worth or more direct output of force during swimming as well.

Brenton Ford: How have you seen your job change over time with the use of technology? Because obviously there’s so much data that we can get these days. How do you simplify it to make it useful and to be able to obviously communicate that as well to the swimmers and the coaches?

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah. Great question. Yeah, that’s something we always grapple with on a daily basis from our end, because there is just so much out there. In our day and age, obviously, we’re at the mercy of all the technology that comes out. Often there is so much. I mean if you could almost relate it back to the types of athletes you have on your device everything sounds great until you download the thing and then you find it’s actually worthless or that there might be potentially a better one out there. But you end up downloading all these things and trying to work it out from there. That’s ultimately what we do with a lot of the stuff that comes out, in particular, to obviously the discipline we’re in, biomechanics, and the different fields of analysis we’ll do there. In this case [inaudible 00:03:06] more pertinent to swimming.

Ryan Hodierne: There are a lot of devices that come out that … Especially equipment, and paddles, fins, kickboards, all that type of thing. They change and people seem to think that they’re going to reinvent swimming. We technically become the gatekeepers of those things and really need to look into it in greater depths to understand actually what that device is … The value that the device is going to potentially add or whether it just is a gimmick and we don’t need to look in that direction at all. That’s ultimately what we’re doing almost on a daily basis.

Ryan Hodierne: We’re also looking for new and great ideas out there. Hence, you look towards Sensari to say, “Okay well that definitely is something we could make better use of down the track once we start understanding the outputs that they are delivering.” We obviously go through a whole process of validation as well to ultimately make sure that whatever those devices are putting out is valid, and accurate, and replicable over periods of time. That’s ultimately what we do, because at our level I mean if things are changing and shifting from one day to the next we lose that trust. That trust relationship with coach and athlete at the highest level is crucial to, obviously, the impact we have as scientists and to the relationship, and overall performance, at the end of the day too.

Brenton Ford: What do you do to … How do you prefer to communicate with the swimmer and the coach? You’re working with them together. Are you using video or is it just through constant communication, like seeing them on a daily basis? How does that typically look for you?

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah. At the highest level generally, my interaction with the program, or with different squads, or athletes and coaches is scheduled in the upfront. So it’s not very ad hoc at all. It’s definitely planned into the schedule. The rest of the service providers in a high-performance team, which would include the physiologist, the nutritionists, strength, conditioning, physiotherapy, all of that type of stuff. All of them are included in a plan right at the beginning of a season. Obviously interaction with us ebbs and flows over a period of time, and from one athlete to the next. They have different interactions with different specialists at different times as well. That’s all guided or lead by the coach I would say. All specifically around that particular athlete.

Ryan Hodierne: Then as time progresses we obviously ensure that we’re progressing in the right direction through a lot of the stuff that we do. If we’re adjusting technique I mean you would know very well in this regard. If you’re adjusting technique quite often you expect regression to start off with. So people potentially get slower or feel a little more awkward in the pool and it just doesn’t feel quite right. But through persistence, we hope to take those two steps forward following that one step back. That’s ultimately what we’re trying to do over a period of time.

Ryan Hodierne: Then if we look at some of the high-performance programs that I’m dealing with, ultimately my interaction is through the coach. He directs, obviously, the service I provide. But when it gets to the nitty-gritty, and right at the cracks, my involvement with the athlete and that connection is very, very close. I ultimately need to understand what they’re trying to do, and how they feel or think about whatever they’re trying to do, and refine that in a way that is going to make them better. This is really looking for marginal gains. That’s where that trust comes in again, as I mentioned earlier on because now we’re talking about things that are very groundbreaking. It’s things that potentially haven’t been seen before and all that type of thing.

Ryan Hodierne: Now if we go back a few steps and consider age group development swimming or your average Joe just trying to get better often you can take quite a blanket approach on things and conform to a certain norm. But at our level, dealing at the highest level, the best is always doing something different. We’re trying to, obviously, make better use of that difference to get more out of them.

Brenton Ford: Is there something that comes to mind when you think of something that’s groundbreaking? Is there something over the last couple of years that you may have thought differently about in the past? You’ve looked at it, and studied it further, and gone, “Oh actually this is how it is”? Or just-

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, probably a few things I could think of but over a period of time my biggest realization, and you find it quite strange … I mean I deal with technology at very different levels. We have state-of-the-art devices that we use measuring outgoing velocity, measuring acceleration in different directions on the swimmer wearing this. Yeah, we just … There is just so much information we can get from athletes and all of that. We obviously use 2D motion capture, where we actually calibrate it to certain space and can actually give you an indication as to kick frequencies, kick amplitudes, and underwater kicks. Different metrics in stroke too. We could look at all of that in massive depths, but at the end of the day it’s how you interpret that information that’s key. I find a really happy space dealing with information and showing the information that I feel is going to make the most impact on athletes, and coaches. That’s probably the space I like dealing in.

Ryan Hodierne: Ultimately, through my years working with swimming, it always comes down to fundamentals. What are they fundamentally doing correctly? That needs to be in place first. I mean obviously the audience … From your view, I think it’s quite easy to get caught up in what everyone else is doing. The guy in the lane next to you might be doing something which you think might better suit you or it just looks great because he’s swimming five minutes quicker over his initial swim in a triathlon. That you must be doing what he is doing. But ultimately we just need to go back to consider what we’re doing well first. What got us there in the first place. Then ensure that we have all those fundamentals in place. That we can build off of those to obviously get better or more out of what we’re trying to do in the end of the day.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. That’s something that I’ve come to learn over the last 12 years of coaching, is there are so many different ways to do every single stroke. So you want to work with the strengths of each swimmer and work with all of the things that they’ve got. Different heights, different wingspans, just different strengths within their stroke and tailoring it that way. Similar to you though we work with a lot of different swimmers. Just seeing that wide range of styles. Then there’s so much knowledge there … Or so much data, I guess, to interpret. Then to be able to interpret that and give them the advice that you think will be best for that swimmer based on what you’ve seen in the past. Do you find that’s like the art of what you do?

Ryan Hodierne: Oh I know, definitely. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. That ultimately is what it comes down to. We’re scientists and we think in a very scientific way. We love information, we love very complex graphs and very complex information, but ultimately that makes no sense to the athlete. Right? If you tell him to move his arm or his leg two degrees difference, and it’s going to make that impact, he’s going to look at you with a frown on his face. Well, some swimmers, mind you, probably go to that extent and want that level of detail. But ultimately they’re not wanting you to be that specific. They’re wanting you to give more of an overarching idea as to what they need to do better, and how they could potentially do it, and what the potential outcome’s going to be as well.

Ryan Hodierne: In that, we often deal with heaps of information. Sometimes that information is going to prove to us that what they’re doing is totally incorrect and they need to change drastically or ultimately it proves to us that what they’re doing is incredibly good and we can just refine whatever they’re doing there. That’s how, ultimately, we look at a lot of the information we gather over a period of time. We need to align with the coach and the coach obviously has his certain concepts, and ideas, and philosophies that he sticks to. Down the track, he gets different athletes through his hands. His ways and means of dealing with athletes or successes he’s had in the past are probably always going to tend toward … Having different athletes is going to force that coach to actually think in a slightly different manner. If we produce similar information to that coach, over a period of time, we either prove to him that what he’s doing is probably right or we try and prove to him in a way that obviously what he needs to be doing should be slightly different to get a different outcome of that athlete.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. In terms of getting them to make those changes one of the things that I’ve found has worked well over the past few years, with swimmers, is explaining … Similar to what you mentioned. Explaining this is how it might feel when you make the change. This is what you’ll probably need to expect. It’s that discomfort, it’s that awkwardness and possible regression as well. Explaining those two things has made a big difference, especially compared to just telling them what they need to do, because if they’re not expecting that it’s … If they’re expecting to get faster straight away or if they’re expecting it just to feel fine then they’re not going triathlon you actually make that change. Because they want to steer away from that discomfort. Because they think it’s wrong. Just the communication and framing it upfront, for me at least with the athletes I’ve worked with, I’ve seen that make a big difference. I try to be very clear upfront every time I’m working with a new swimmer that this is what to expect and this is how it may feel.

Brenton Ford: Even at that top level is that something that you’ve had to make very clear with them?

Ryan Hodierne: Yes it is. Often … I mean dealing in fluid environments … I mean the water … The human beings are not necessarily made to be in that space, the duration of time that the top-level athletes spend in the water. Ultimately you regard your elite level swimmer as amphibious but still looking very human. It almost doesn’t make sense to move the human body through a body of water as quickly as possible. It is almost … It doesn’t make sense, but ultimately we do that quite well.

Ryan Hodierne: Charging on … I mean we see world records being broken now. The swimming performance has just lifted in recent years I would say. We do incredibly well as non-water beings moving through the water really fast. But in saying that it’s also a very unnatural environment to be in. Sometimes just doing something slightly different will come up with a very different outcome. That’s often where I try and explore different ranges on a continuum. I’m a big fan of shifting or exploring that continuum from the polar opposites or carrying extremes.

Ryan Hodierne: I was watching the video of you have improved your technique in the past year or something. You were saying that you were looking at just improving the crossover at the front end of your stroke, both left and right. That’s quite a common thing and probably one of the go-tos of fundamental things that you need to not do in freestyle is cross the midline on entry. Watching you do that ultimately my approach would then be to say to you, “Okay well try and reach out as far as you possibly can. Way out of shoulder width. Try and almost touch the side of the pool, and enter there.” I shift you to that next extreme. You might even, just by thinking in the extreme, you would probably go to where it’s more central. As opposed to going out to touch the side of the pool you probably are going to go a little more central, because your extreme, or your average, or your middle ground on the continuum is that skewed to crossing that midline that something that drastic would probably find a better middle ground than the actual extreme. Does that make sense?

Brenton Ford: Yeah, absolutely. That’s something I try and do with swimmers is if they do … Let’s say … Because my crossover there it was a bit of a crossover but much, much less than I’ve seen with a lot of the guys who have come through our clinics. Some really big crossovers. For me to actually get in line with the shoulder it still had to feel really wide. So for someone who’s away across the center, for them, it’s going to have to feel like they’re not even anywhere close to the center. By having it as a “This is the time to experiment. This is the time … If you overcorrect that’s fine. We can always come back into where you were,” but encouraging them to really overdo the thing that they’re trying to do. I love that as a way to help people at least start to make that change or get a sense of where they are.

Ryan Hodierne: Yep, for sure. I mean that the whole level of implicit learning there, and creating awareness for themselves, is where it’s all at in that regard. People feel the water in a very different way. Swimming is a very kinesthetic sport. Obviously you have your visual learners, you have your audio learners. You’ve got various different levels of learning. But I find the visual always brings home what you’re trying to get at. Although it’s awkward and that type of thing, just seeing that the hand is potentially passing in more of a correct line people start readjusting their own awareness of sensory perception in their head as to what is correct. You almost fast track that whole process with a visual, I feel.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, that’s good. I like to try and do basically what you’re talking about, contrast drills. Where you … To get them to develop that awareness is you get them to go extreme in one way and extreme in the other way. Then obviously that middle ground is probably where they want to be. But just yeah that’s a great way for developing that awareness.

Brenton Ford: I was talking to a friend of mine who’s a physio and I was telling him how … He was actually talking about a swimmer who … He’s a long-distance swimmer. Came to him with some shoulder issues. He was just talking to him about, all right why’s his shoulder hurting? There’s a lot of reasons why his shoulder could be hurting. But one of the things that the physio found was this swimmer wasn’t kicking at all and everything was just coming from basically above the … From the shoulders upwards, so there was very little hip rotation. There was no connection through the hips and through the torso. One of the things he got him to do was just to start doing some kicking within his training sessions. Over the course of a couple of weeks, it took a lot of the pain out of the shoulder because everything wasn’t originating from the shoulders. It was much more connected. The thing he mentioned there was if something down the chain is hurting you usually want to look at something closer into where it all starts.

Brenton Ford: I think that’s a … At least for me, when I’m analyzing strokes, that’s an interesting way to approach it and a good way to approach it, because if someones… Maybe someone’s coming under the body it could be that their posture in through their hips and through their core, maybe there’s something going on there that they need to fix in order to fix that thing down the chain.

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, very much so. It is the case. I mean shoulder is probably one of the more prevalent injuries in swimming. Often even at the highest level the athletes and the fatigue all resort to wanting to stroke harder or feeling greater pressure on their hand. But being in a very compromised position, and the fatigue, and that’s generally when the shoulders start getting overloaded and little needles start popping up. Then obviously go into the deep doldrums of injury and are laid up for a while.

Ryan Hodierne: I can often pick inklings of that happening with a lot of freestyle swimmers in particular. I always try and go to the kick as well. The benefit of the kick in absolute improving stroke length. The kick has a compounding factor to increasing stroke length. It’s not necessarily over kicking but consistency in the kick. Then bringing the consistency of the kick to the timing of the stroke is crucial. So whether it’s two beats, or four beats, or a six beat kick it needs to be timed in with the actual stroke to get the outcome or the benefit of the kick itself.

Ryan Hodierne: If we consider the kick in isolation, and we do kick sets just with a kickboard or head down with a snorkel, and you get your top performer in the kick set comes out. Right? We all know who that is. Then we go to a pull set with pull buoy and bands, with paddles. The guys go down. We probably get to know who the best puller is on the squad. But very seldom, in the squads I’ve worked with, that sub-elites, even to elite level, are those two individuals, the best kicker or the guy that won the kick set and the guy that won the stroke set, are they the best swimmer. More often potentially the best stroker is the best swimmer, but very seldom are they the best swimmer. It’s the one that’s more or less average, or just above average in both kick and pull, that generally is the guy that is the best swimmer.

Ryan Hodierne: Ultimately then the kick is only of … Well, the kick is of greater worth tied in with the stroke. If that makes sense. The propulsion we get from the kick is compounded when it’s actually tied into the timing of the actual stroke. What you mentioned there about your physio friend, and the athlete with the shoulder injury, and all that type of thing. Going back down to kick and just understanding the concept of the kick. We see that at the highest level too. A lot of athletes are rendered out for a period of time and they need to get back in the water. We need them in the water as soon as possible because it is just such an unnatural environment. A lot of the coaches just resort to kick. Often with a lot of them, who were average kickers to start off with, become really good kickers. The moment they turn the stroke on all of a sudden you just see them swimming in a totally different way. It just seems … Well, it’s often much better than they were to start off with.

Brenton Ford: Is there certain drills or ways you try and get those swimmers to feel, in order to help them connect up the timing of their kick and the rest of their stroke? Is there a couple of go-tos that you have?

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, there is. There’s actually one that I do regularly. It’s very, very difficult to workout. I even have top level swimmers, guys who have been making finals out of world championships in freestyle, struggle with this one. But I feel if you can master this, at any level, I feel you’re winning or you’re definitely on the right track. This is one you could potentially use yourself or share with the guys out there. But the whole understanding of timing.

Ryan Hodierne: Now we have different rhythms or rates that we swim at. We all have more or less of an idealistic rating that we conform to. So subconsciously if we’re just swimming nicely in the water we generally have a certain rate that we conform to. Let’s consider that rate as your average, your middle ground. Now if we develop a kick, and let’s say we keep the kick a four beat kick, so four beats of the kick within one stroke cycle. From the right-hand entry into the right-hand entry in there are four kicks. Now we keep the four-beat kick going consistently. I like the athletes shifting from a lower rating to what their norm was. From a lower rating through to the first third of the pool and then shifting to their middle ground rating. Then shifting to a slightly higher rating.

Ryan Hodierne: For you, as the coach, or someone on the side of the pool deck looking in you need to see those very definite gear shifts over the three ratings. So kick stays exactly the same but the rating changes over three-thirds of the pool. Then what you do is once you get to the opposite side, say in a 50-meter pool, then you try and aim to keep your stroke rate at that middle ground. Keep your stroke rate at that middle ground and then you start altering your kick around your actual stroke rate. This is where it gets really tough because ultimately if we think about running even, if we’re running on the spot the faster we move our arms the faster we move our legs, right?

Ryan Hodierne: In swimming, it doesn’t necessarily need to work that way. The moment we rate up we have this tendency to kick more and often over kick. That becomes a very reactive inefficient type stroke. Overcoming this one is probably the biggest challenge for most, but generally comes with the best outcome. If we can adjust kick tempo around consistent stroke rate. Again, going through the three gears but the kick changes from a two beat, to a four beat, to a six beat kick. Your rating stays exactly the same.

Brenton Ford: That’s within that last 50 were you saying or you’d go through say three 50s, where the first one would be a two beat, then a four beat, and then a six beat?

Ryan Hodierne: No, so just through the 50. Yeah.

Brenton Ford: Oh got you. Okay.

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, so through the 50 you would go through three segments of the 50. Break it into three segments. Literally to 15 meters. Don’t do any underwater but through 15, through 30, then to 45. Do it through the … Well to the 15 you’d be doing rating at your lower rate, keeping the kick consistent. Then from 15 to 30 you would be at your middle ground rate, keeping the kick consistent. Then from 30 to 45, or to the end of the pool, you’d be a higher rate, keeping your kick consistent. Then rest at the other end of the pool. Push off. Then keeping your … Try and get up, and get your stroke at your normal, at your middle ground to start off with and don’t even kick. Then start bringing a two beat kick through the 15. At 15 to 30 increase the kick beat to like four kicks. Stroke stays exactly the same. Then through the 30 into the wall you’d probably pick the kick up to around a six beat kick but the stroke rate stays exactly the same.

Ryan Hodierne: The person on the side of the pool, if you start switching it up and you start getting good at this, well the coach, or your fellow athlete, or peer should be looking into the pool and saying, “You adjusted stroke on that one and you adjusted kick on that one.” If you get to that and it’s very defined then I think you’ve come a long way.

Brenton Ford: Oh that’s good. I was becoming a lot more aware of this probably a year and a half ago when I started doing … I did some filming with a swimmer up in Queensland, Andrew Spore. He was a 200 freestyler. He used … He was very good with a four beat kick and for … I was looking at that and he spoke a bit about it. Then I started to look a little bit deeper into that and started to play around with it myself. I found over the course of that 18 months I’ve gotten a lot better at being able to shift gears from your two beat, four beat to six beat. Especially for distance swimming I’ve found, or anything 200 meters or more really, but particularly distance swimming being able to control your effort, and output, and be a lot more efficient by choosing a two or a four beat for those longer swims it really gives you a lot of … Well can save a lot of effort and energy but it really helps-

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, for sure.

Brenton Ford: … me control my speed very well, because with the timing of that kick you can just really settle into a good rhythm. That’s what I find can set it like the … A consistent breathing pattern and a good kick is at the basis of a good rhythm there.

Ryan Hodierne: For sure.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. It’s something that I’d never … I hadn’t really ever considered much before. Having swum since I was four years of age and only just figuring it out now, and I’ve been coaching for that long, it’s like well I can see how some of those guys at the very top have made … Been able to do it straight away because it’s just one of those extra things that I don’t think a lot of people get taught early on.

Ryan Hodierne: Oh for sure. Definitely. Timing’s key in all strokes. Just how propulsive means from the kick and the stroke work together is crucial. Ultimately if you talk about efficiency in swimming that timing goes a very, very long way. Often if we come up to another rotation in the freestyle for breathing, over-rotating to the breathing side, often that throws the timing up. As we fatigue we breath for longer. Then all of a sudden we’ve just become so inefficient because we’re rotating so much more to the one side and through our core are unable to keep our hips up, hips start dropping. Then all of a sudden we start working against ourselves and the timing just goes out of whack.

Ryan Hodierne: Even at the highest level often if you see guys and maybe the 200 freestyle, 400 freestyle, you’d see that one guy he’d be going up quite strong. He might be leading the race, let’s say. Then if he senses through the middle portion of the race or to the backend of the race that people are starting to come up on him, and he can feel that he is losing ground, and then he reacts. Once they react they often lose the timing of their stroke. All of a sudden you just see them go straight out the back. That’s what we try and prevent athletes from doing. Especially if you are that athlete that is a little bit stronger out the front end of your race. Then the guys are probably going to be coming back at you towards the end, but even sensing that you just need to maintain relative efficiency within your stroke. Good length, good pressure on the water and all that type of thing. It all comes down to that rhythm and flow, and that connectiveness of your stroke.

Brenton Ford: Yeah.

Ryan Hodierne: That makes a difference. Yeah.

Brenton Ford: That’s a big one. What I’ve started to teach at clinics is we’ll … We go through drills and then we do some swimming in between, because we want to connect the purpose of the drill to the swim stroke. One of the things that I’ve found helpful with that is getting them to think about what you’re trying to achieve in the drill. Be in your thinking brain, that’s where you want to be. But when you come to swimming, to the swim portion of that, try and go a bit more by feel because as soon as you’re overthinking it when you’re swimming you’re going to lose that timing by .05 of a second or .1 of a second. As soon as you lose it even by that much … Completely yeah. It disconnects. That’s when you really want to go for that more sort of feeling brain. That’s when the timing comes in, and that rhythm, and connection. It doesn’t take much to lose it.

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, for sure. I mean a great way to try and go around that … I like the way you talk about your feeling brain you kind of speak …

Ryan Hodierne: If we consider a particular drill, and we isolate that drill to one particular thing that we’re trying to improve for athlete, then it could be quite contrasting or quite far removed from the stroke itself. But we need to think about what that drill’s trying to achieve. That’s where we’re very much in that thinking space, in your example. We need to do it the right way and appropriately to the intention.

Ryan Hodierne: … with drills are just done to get that 400 drill out of the way. Drill and swim type of thing in a warmup. To me drills are probably the most important part of the actual warmup because that’s what sets us up. If you think of priming your stove when we’re camping. We don’t really do that these days, but priming your stove in camping you’re ultimately getting that stove ready to burn. That’s how I feel drills serve that purpose. Drills could change from one day to the next with a group of athletes, but ultimately they are there to prime us to get the job done when the main set hits. The way we’ve looked through drills there then could be very isolated and very left of center, but we need to understand what they’re trying to achieve. We’re in that thinking space.

Ryan Hodierne: Then progressively move that drill into what makes better sense and how it could potentially tie into swimming. Then we get into levels where it actually starts tying into swimming. Then all of a sudden it’s in our stroke. Then we start feeling it within our stroke. That’s how we generally float around progressive means within a skill acquisition type space.

Brenton Ford: It’s good to hear you say that because that’s what I’ve tried to do and do that with the swimmers that come to our clinics. Is that when they leave the way we like them to incorporate it into their training is as part of their warmup every session, if they can. Otherwise just as often as they can. Do some drills that are specific to those things that you want to work on. Do them in the warmup, get a feel for those things that you want to change in your stroke. Then just go about your main set and your session. Obviously keep that in the back of your mind, but you set up the feel for it with the drills. Doing that regularly and consistently is how you’ll change that habit, and acquire that skill. It’s not about doing one session focused on technique once every two or three weeks, because it’s not going to change anything there. It’s about that consistency.

Ryan Hodierne: For sure. In this environment as I say as an unnatural environment as it is in the water we need to do it consistently in order for it to get the carryover, for sure.

Brenton Ford: Before we … I know you’ve got to go soon. Is there anything that you feel we haven’t talked about that could be helpful for some? Say a triathlete or an open water swimmer out there who might be stuck in a bit of a plateau and they just want to get faster, or they’re frustrated with their swimming. Is there some advice that you have for someone out there who wants to get better but they feel a little bit stuck?

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, for sure. I mean I come from a bit of a triathlon background myself. Was part of age group swimmer at school and all of that. I got into triathlon as well and was relatively competitive. Well, mostly off-road triathlon. Yeah, I’ve been in that position before and being stuck in a rut, especially on the swimming front. Ultimately with triathletes I feel the struggle … The biggest struggle with triathletes is while you’re doing one thing you’re thinking about the other two disciplines. That was always my issue. Is I always liked dealing with a lot of information, so I never really got to grips with one particular thing or where … When I was doing swimming I was thinking about the bike and the run, but I wasn’t really thinking about swimming. We really need to, I mean in the triathlon space, get our heads around actually dealing with the sport that we’re currently doing. Really getting our teeth into it while we’re doing it.

Ryan Hodierne: That, to me, would probably be some advice I would give to triathletes. Just having been in that space before, because that’s something I feel I could have done better for sure.

Ryan Hodierne: Then yeah, open water swimmers, just generally as where it’s at with them. And heaps and heaps of laps up and down the pool or laps around open water, whatever it is. What I say here could probably speak to anyone but just trying to think of your stroke in a slightly different way, or breaking your stroke, or breaking your … I’m going to say your set. Break it into proportions or bite-sized portions and having a different focus on each of those.

Ryan Hodierne: If we think about a 1500 meter in a Olympic event, those athletes, the way they think about it is some of them actually think about it in 500 meter portions. Others think about it in 300 meter portions. But ultimately when we do analysis on those races I can see a characteristic trait for each swimmer as to what they’re trying to focus on. Sometimes it might be every second turn. Sometimes it might be every third 50 that they’re focused on something different. The rate might change every third 50. Their turn might be improved every second turn or they might be trying to even split the third and the fourth 200, something like that. It’s just there always seems to be a strategy around that.

Ryan Hodierne: With open water in particular they like getting out there, and getting into a rhythm, and getting a flow as well. But ultimately to start thinking around not necessarily pacing strategy but just different … A thinking strategy or queuing strategy, let me probably phrase it in that way. That if we go out there we want to feel good, easy, efficient flow in the way we’re doing it. Obviously we’re not fatigued to start off with, so we can find that easy connectiveness and that flow. Not try and overdo it out front.

Ryan Hodierne: Then the moment fatigue starts setting in it might onset slightly early with some, it might onset slightly later with others. Then we just need to have a queuing mechanism as to what that might be. Often in open water that might relate to the breathing pattern. How we’re breathing. Is the timing of our breath impeding elements of our stroke? Often it does. If I could wish anything upon any swimmer in this world it would be that we didn’t have to breath, because breathing throws a spanner in the works with regards to swimming, often. Even at my level I’ve only see very, very few athletes breath properly in a freestyle space. That queue could be potentially around timing of the breath and what that looks like.

Ryan Hodierne: Then moving on from there it might be timing of the kick in relation to the stroke. I’ve challenged all athletes, doing longer distances, to try and find out what that particular point is that they know whether the timing’s on or not. Whether it’s entry of the right hand stroke and the kick down on the left leg. There needs to be a critical point that you feel if you nail that you feel your timing’s on. That might be something you could think about, that little portion, to back end of your race.

Ryan Hodierne: Then really towards the back end of a race, whether it’s a 10K, a 5K, or 3K, or a 1500, to not feel like you need to shift it up a gear and all of a sudden swim a very different type of stroke. That gear adjustment could be quite progressive. You need to maintain relative efficiency in doing that. Often I feel if they try and shift gears they react, and that’s where we start to get in that disconnectedness that we spoke about a little earlier.

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, does that make sense or-

Brenton Ford: Yeah. I think that’s great. Especially I mean the first thing is being present when you are in the water. Especially, again, try and focus on the thing that you’re doing. It’s very easy to get distracted and think about what you’ve got coming up or just wanting to get through the session. Particularly with … I’ve spoken about this before but particularly with swim watches, where people are always on them, starting, stopping. It’s a massive distraction from your technique.

Brenton Ford: I think so many people could improve so much faster if they just left the watch in their swimming bag and didn’t use it while they were swimming, because you are going to get a lot more benefit from actually being present, and feeling the water, and feeling what your stroke is doing, and feeling how much effort you’re putting in for the pace that you’re getting. Get that time just from the 60-second clock. You’ll get so much more out of that then buy uploading it to Strava and seeing that over the course of a year your pace has improved that way. But nah I think leave that in your gear bag. It doesn’t help you most of the time.

Ryan Hodierne: Yep, I couldn’t agree more. When I was running my fastest I used to leave my heart rate monitor at home. That’s when I’d usually run my fastest.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. That’s right because you’re just too worried about, “Ah geez my heart rate’s up this high.” It’s-

Ryan Hodierne: Yeah, exactly. You start regulating yourself around that or if it’s not looking good you almost start subduing yourself, or try and outdo yourself. [inaudible 00:42:02] they’re there for good reason I would say. A lot of these smart devices nowadays give us so much information it’s awesome, but yeah we get too caught up in it. Triathletes, and a space that I’ve been in for quite a period of time, we get too caught up in that space. The more gimmicks the better. Ultimately then it’s just they become a huge impedance to our overall performance in the end of the day. Yep.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, couldn’t agree more.

Brenton Ford: Well Ryan thank you so much for being on the podcast. I’ve really enjoyed chatting to you. I’m sure that those people listening have got a lot out of it as well. Thank you very much. For anyone who maybe wants to get in touch with you what’s the best way?

Ryan Hodierne: Generally I’m a phone call, no problem. Otherwise on email. That’s probably the easiest I would say. I’m always open for sharing my ideas and all that type of thing. Ultimately to me regardless of what level of athlete you are I’d always love people super exceeding their own expectations. That’s ultimately what I’m here for. At the highest level it’s really tricky. We look for marginal gains. It’s not one-percenters it’s 0.01 percenters that we’re generally looking for. We celebrate those. But at a lower level there definitely are different ways of thinking about things that could create an outcome. That’s …

Ryan Hodierne: Obviously appreciate the work you do as well. Just seeing some of the [Tire Drops 00:43:31] guys have had in their triathlon and open water swims, the work you’re doing clearly is having an impact. But I’m all in in that regards, so people are wanting to come to me with questions, thoughts or ideas I welcome them all. Yeah, phone call or email is probably the best way.

Brenton Ford: If you enjoyed today’s podcast and you’re interested in improving your own technique we have a number of camps coming up in 2020 that if you are an adult, you swim in any capacity, whether it’s for fitness, whether you’re doing pool swimming, competitive swimming, or triathlon, or open water swimming, we have a number of camps coming up in Thailand, Hawaii, and Noosa, which is in Queensland, Australia. If you go to our website at effortlessswimming.com you’ll see the details of each of those camps.

Brenton Ford: What we do at those camps is each day … Well at the very start of the camps we do underwater filming and analysis with you. We look at the two to three aspects of your stroke that are worth working on and improving. Those things that will give you the biggest benefit over the course of three to six months. Then throughout the camp, every single day, we work with you very closely, one-on-one, where we help you improve your technique and make those changes over the course of the camp. Then you leave the camp not only having had a great time, had a lot of fun, but you will have improved your technique. Your times will more than likely have come down over the course of the five or seven days. You’ll have an action plan. You’ll know exactly what you need to do and you’ll have started that process to find yourself swimming faster three to six months down the track.

Brenton Ford: If that sounds like something you would enjoy, having a swimming holiday and a swimming camp in Hawaii, Thailand or Noosa, then check out the website at effortlessswimming.com. I run all of those camps. We also have two to three other coaches on each of the camps as well. It’s not just me that you work with but a number of other coaches. Other coaches we have onboard are ones like Gary Hurring, who’s a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic coach from New Zealand. Professional triathlete Mitchell Kibby. We have Phil Rush, who has the fastest two- and three-way crossing of the English Channel. We have Amy Jones, who you’ve probably heard on this podcast a number of times. There’s a wide range of other coaches who do attend the clinics, and coach with me, and who you’ll be working with on those camps. So hope to see you at one of them in 2020. Most of them are at least half full and some of them are already sold out. Just make sure you do book that early if you are interested.

Brenton Ford: Thanks very much for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I will see you on another episode of The Effortless Swimming podcast.

And ultimately, through my years working with swimming, it always comes down to fundamentals. What are they fundamentally doing correctly? And that needs to be in place first. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast, the show that helps swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford.

Welcome to episode 138 of the Effortless Swimming Podcast. My guest today is Ryan Hodeon, who is the biomechanist for EnSwiss, which is a New South Wales Institute of Sport. And the the title for this episode is high level biomechanics for weekend warriors. So Ryan, you work with a very high level of swimmer. And what I want to chat today about is everything that you do with with those top level guys, but how people who are maybe trying for triathlon or swimming, they might be swimming two or three times a week. How can they apply some of this stuff that that you work on to their own swimming? So first of all, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me. Yeah, great to thanks for having me on. And the way that we got introduced was we’re both advisors for a company called Sensari, which are developing a pretty cool sort of power, not power meter, but a device that measures the force and the direction of the force

for swimmers. And so that’s how we got introduced. And we’ve both had the chance to test that stuff out. And there’s some pretty cool stuff that’s that’s coming out of that. And what were your thoughts on the on the device and how do you see it being used?

Yeah, well, I’ve obviously showed a lot of interest in the device to sort off with, and I know there are means of obviously extrapolating similar types of information from other devices. But this device just seems to kind of hit home to me because that obviously spent a heap of time through a phase of R and D to produce something out the back end that would make a difference to swimming. So just looking at it in the way they’re actually displaying a lot of the information of the output that was coming from the actual press sensors on the hand, it just made sense to me. So yeah, we show keen interest in that, obviously trying to push it more to not necessarily just routine use like a high crack monitor, but ultimately trying to, you know, jazz up the device that it’s actually going to give us more worth or more direct output of force during swimming as well. And how have you seen your job change over time with the use of technology?

And because obviously there’s so much data that we can get these days and how do you how do you simplify it to make it useful and to be able to obviously communicate that as well to the swimmers and the coaches? Yeah, great question. And yeah, that’s something we always kind of grapple with on a daily basis from our end, because there is just so much out there. And in our day and age, obviously, we’re at the mercy of all the technology that comes up and often there is so much. I mean, if you could almost relate it back to the types of apps that you have on your device, everything sounds great until you download the thing and then you find it’s actually worthless or that there might be potentially a better one out there. But you end up downloading all these things and trying to work it out from there. That’s ultimately what we do with a lot of the stuff that comes out, in particular to obviously the discipline we’re in by mechanics

and the different fields of analysis would do there. And in this case, I mean, more pertinent to swimming. There are a lot of stuff, a lot of devices that come out that, you know, especially, you know, equipment and paddles, fins, kickboards, all that type of thing, you know, the change and people seem to think that they’re going to reinvent swimming. So we technically become, you know, the gatekeepers of those things and really need to look into it, you know, in greater depth to understand actually what what that device is

and value that device is going to potentially add or whether it just is a gimmick and we don’t need to look in that direction at all. That’s ultimately what we’re doing almost on a daily basis. We’re also looking for kind of new and great ideas out there. And we kind of look towards I’m sorry to say, OK, well, that definitely is something we could make better use of down the track. Once we start understanding the outputs that they are delivering and, you know, we we obviously go through a whole process of validation as well to ultimately make sure that whatever those devices are putting out is valid and accurate and replicable of periods of time. And that’s ultimately what we do because at our level, I mean, if a thing is changing and shifting from one day to the next, we lose that trust and that trust relationship with coach and athlete the highest level is crucial to obviously the impact we have as scientists

and to the relationship and overall performance at the end of the day, too.

And what do you what do you do to how do you prefer to communicate with with the swimmer and the coach? You’re working with them together and are you are you using video? Is it just through just through constant communication like seeing them on a daily basis? What’s how does that typically look for you? Yeah, so at the high level, generally, a lot of my interaction with programs or with different squads or athletes and coaches is scheduled in upfront. And so it’s not very ad hoc at all. It’s it’s definitely planned into the schedule. So it would be the rest of the service providers in a team and a high performance team, which include the physiologists, the nutritionists, you know, strength conditioning, physiotherapy, all of that type of stuff. All of them are included in a plan right at the beginning of the season. And obviously, you know, interaction with us ebbs and flows over a period of time. And from one athlete to the next, they have different interactions

with different specialists at different times as well. And that’s all kind of guided or led by the coach, I would say. And all specifically around that particular athlete. And then, you know, as time progresses, we obviously ensure that we progressing in the right direction and through a lot of the stuff that we do, if we’re adjusting technique, I mean, you’d know very well in this regard, if you’re adjusting technique quite often you you expect regression to start off with. So people potentially get slower or feel a little more awkward in the pool but just doesn’t feel quite right. But through persistence, we hope to take, you know, those two steps forward following that one step back. So that’s ultimately what we try to do over a period of time. And then if we look at some high performance programs that I’m dealing with, ultimately, my interaction is through the coach and he directs obviously the service I provide.

But when it when it gets to, you know, the nitty gritty and right at the crux in my involvement with the athlete in that connection is very, very close. And I ultimately need to understand what they’re trying to do and how they feel or think about whatever they’re trying to do and refine that in a way that is going to make them better. And this is really looking for marginal gains. And that’s where that trust comes in again, as I mentioned earlier on, because now we’re talking about things that are very groundbreaking. It’s things that potentially haven’t been seen before and all that type of thing. And if we go back a few steps and consider age group development, swimming or your average Joe, I’m just trying to get better. Often you can take quite a blanket approach on things and conform to a certain norm that at our level, dealing at the highest level, the best are always doing something different. And we trying to obviously make better use of that difference

to to get more out of them. And is there something that comes to mind when you think of something that’s that’s groundbreaking? Is there something over the last couple of years that you may have thought differently about in the past and you’ve you’ve looked at it and studied it further and gone? Oh, actually, this is this is how it is. Yeah, for sure. The kind of well, you know, probably a few things I can think of. But over a period of time, my biggest realization and you find it quite strange, I mean, I do with technology at very different levels. And, you know, we have, you know, just out of the art and devices that we use, you know, measuring an outgoing velocity, measuring, you know, you know, acceleration in different directions on on the summer wearing like I’m use. Yeah, we just there is just so much information we can get from athletes and all of that. We also use like kind of 2D 2D motion capture where we actually calibrate to certain space

and can actually give you an indication as to, you know, kick frequencies, kick amplitude and on what kicks different metrics and stroke to. And we could look at all of that in massive depth. But in the end of the day, it’s how you interpret that information that’s key. And I find a really happy space with dealing with information and sharing the information that I feel is going to make the most impact to athlete and coach. And that’s probably the space I kind of like dealing in.

And ultimately, through my years working with swimming,

it always comes down to fundamentals. What are they fundamentally doing correctly? And that needs to be in place first. And I mean, obviously, the audience from your view, I think, you know, it’s it’s quite easy to kind of get caught up in what everyone else is doing. And the guy in the lane next to you might be doing something which you think might better suit you or it just looks great because his swimming five minutes quicker over is, you know, his initial swim in a triathlon that you must be doing what he’s doing. But ultimately, we just need to go back to consider what we’re doing. Well, first, what got us there in the first place and then ensure that we have all those fundamentals in place that we can build off of those to obviously get better or more out of what we’re trying to do in the end of the day. Yeah, that’s that’s something that I’ve come to learn over the last 12 years of coaching is it’s there’s so many different ways to do every single stroke.

And so you want to work with the strengths of each swimmer and work with all the things that they’ve got in your different heights, different wingspans, just different different strengths within their stroke and and tailoring it that way. It’s and like similar to you, we work with a lot of different swimmers and just seeing that wide range of that wide range of of styles. And then there’s so much there’s so much sort of knowledge there or so much data, I guess, to to interpret and then to be able to interpret that and give them the the advice that you think will be best for that swimmer based on what you’ve seen in the past. That I do you find that sort of like the art of of what you do? Oh, no, definitely. So you hit the nail on the head there and that ultimately is what comes down to so we we scientists and we think in a very scientific way. And we love information. We love, you know, very complex graphs and very complex information.

But ultimately, that makes no sense to the athlete, right? If you tell him to move his arm or his leg at two degrees different, then it’s going to make that impact. He’s going to look at you with a frown on his face. With some some swimmer’s mind, you probably go to that extent and want that level of detail. But ultimately, they’re not wanting you to be that specific. They’re wanting you to give more of an overarching idea as to what they need to do better and how they could potentially do it and what the potential outcomes going to be as well. So in that, we often deal with heats of information. And sometimes that information, you know, is going to prove to us that what they’re doing is is totally incorrect and they need to change stratically or ultimately, it proves to us that what they’re doing is incredibly good and we can just refine whatever they’re doing there.

And that’s how ultimately we look at a lot of the information we we gather over a period of time and we need to align with the coach. And the coach obviously has his certain concepts and ideas and philosophies that he sticks to. And, you know, down the track, he gets different athletes through his hands and, you know, his his way of the means of dealing with athletes or successes he’s had in the past is probably what he’s going to tend toward. But having different athletes through is going to force that coach to actually think in a slightly different manner. And if we produce similar information to that coach over a period of time, we are the proof to him that what he’s doing is probably right. Or we try and prove to him in a way that obviously what he what he needs to be doing should be something slightly different to get a different outcome of that athlete.

Yeah, in terms of getting them to make those changes, one of the things that I’ve found has worked well over the past few years with swimmers is explaining similar to what you mentioned, explaining this is how it might feel when you make the change. This is what you’ll probably need to expect and it’s that discomfort, it’s that awkwardness and possible regression as well. And explaining those two things has made a big difference, especially compared to just telling them what they need to do. Because if they’re not expecting that it’s, if they’re expecting to get faster straight away, or if they’re expecting it just to feel fine, then they’re not going to actually make that change because they want to steer away from that discomfort because they think it’s wrong. And just the communication and framing it up front.

For me, at least with the athletes I’ve worked with, I’ve seen that that make a big difference. So I try to be very clear, up front every time I’m working with a new swimmer that this is what to expect and this is how it may feel. And even at that sort of top level, is that something that you’ve had to make very clear with them?

Yes, it is. And often, I mean, dealing in a fluid environment, I mean, the water, the human being is not necessarily made to be in that space of the durations of time that the top level athletes spend in the water. And ultimately, you regard your elite level swimmer as amphibious, but still looking very human. So it almost doesn’t make sense to move the human body through a body of water as quickly as possible. It is almost, it doesn’t make sense. But ultimately, we do that quite well. And charging on, I mean, we’ve seen world records being broken now and level of swimming performance has just lifted in recent years, I would say. And we do incredibly well as non-water beings moving through the water really fast. But in saying that, it’s also a very unnatural environment to be in. So sometimes just doing something slightly different will come up with a very different outcome. And that’s often where I try and explore different ranges

on a continuum. And I’m a big fan of shifting or exploring that continuum from the polar opposites or clearing streams. So I was watching the video of you having improved your technique

in the past year or something. And you were saying you were looking at just improving the crossover at the front end of your stroke, both left and right.

And that’s quite a common thing and probably one of the go-tos are fundamental things that you need to not do in freestyle is cross the midline on entry. And watching you do that, ultimately my approach would then be to say to you, okay, well, try and reach out as far as you possibly can, way out of shoulder width, and try and almost touch the side of the pool and enter there. So I shift you to that next extreme. And you might even just by thinking in the extreme, you would probably go to where it’s more central, as opposed to going out to touch the side of the pool, you probably wouldn’t go a little more central because your extreme or your average or middle ground on the continuum, is that skewed to cross in the midline? It’s something that drastic would probably find a better middle ground than the actual extreme. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And that’s something which I try and do with Sommersies.

Let’s say like, because my crossover there, like it was a bit of a crossover, but much, much less than I’ve seen with a lot of the guys who have come through our clinics, like, you know, some really big crossovers. And so for some, like for me to actually get on those, you know, in line with the shoulder, it still had to feel really wide. And it still had to feel really wide. So for someone who’s way across the center, for them, it’s going to have to feel like they’re, yeah, they’re not even anywhere close to the center. And by having it as like a, this is the time to experiment. This is the time if you over correct, like that’s fine. We can always come back to, you know, come back into where you were, but encouraging them to really overdo that the thing that they’re trying to do. I love that as a way to help people at least start to make that change. You’ll get a sense of where they are. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, that whole level of implicit learning there

and creating awareness for themselves is where it’s all at in that regard. And, you know, people feel water in a very different way. And swimming is a very kind of aesthetic sport. And obviously you have your visual learners. You have your audio learners. You’ve got, you know, different, various different levels of learning. But I find the visual always brings home what you’re trying to get at. Although it’s awkward and that type of thing just seeing that the hand is potentially, you know, passing in more of a correct line, people start readjusting their own awareness or, you know, sensory perception in their head as to what is correct. So you almost past track that whole process with a visual, I feel. Yeah, that’s good. I like to try and do basically what you’re talking about. Contrast drills where you,

to get them to develop that awareness is you get them to go extreme in one way and extreme in the other way. And then obviously that middle ground is probably where they want to be. But just, yeah, that’s a great way for developing that awareness. And I was talking to a friend of mine who’s a physio and I was telling him how, he was actually talking about a swimmer who he’s a long distance swimmer, came to him with some shoulder issues. And he, this, he was just talking to him about, right, how, why is his shoulder hurting? And there’s a lot of reasons why his shoulder could be hurting. But one of the things that the physio found was like he, this swimmer wasn’t kicking at all and everything was just coming from, from basically above the, or from the shoulders upwards. So there was very little hip rotation. There was no connection through the hips and through the torso. And so one of the things he got him to do

was just to start doing some kicking within his training sessions. And over the course of a couple of weeks, it took a lot of the pain out of the shoulder because he wasn’t, it wasn’t, everything wasn’t originating from the shoulders. It was much more connected. And he, the thing he mentioned there was, you know, if something down the chain is hurting, you usually want to look at something close, you know, closer in to where it all starts. And, and I think that’s a, at least for, you know, for me when I’m analyzing stroke, it’s like, oh, that’s an interesting way to approach it and a good way to approach it because if someone’s, you know, if that’s maybe someone’s coming under the body, it could be that they’re posture and through their hips and through their core, maybe there’s something going on there that they need to fix in order to fix that thing down the chain.

Yeah, very much so. It is the case, I mean, the shoulder is probably one of the more prevalent injuries in swimming. And often even at the highest level, the athletes have the fatigue or resort to wanting to stroke harder or feeling greater pressure in the hand, but being in a very compromised position under fatigue. And that’s generally when the shoulders start getting overloaded and little needles start popping up. And then, you know, obviously go into, you know, the deep delusions of injury and a ladle for a while. So I can often, you know, pick inklings of that happening with a lot of, you know, freestyle swims in particular. And I always try and go to the kick as well and the benefit of the kick in absolute, you know, improving stroke length.

So the kick has, you know, compounding factor to increasing stroke length is not necessarily over kicking, but a consistency in the kick. And then bringing the consistency of the kick to the timing of the stroke is crucial. So whether it’s 2B to 4B to a 6B kick, it needs to be timed in with the actual stroke to get the outcome or the benefit of the kick itself.

So if we consider the kick in isolation and we do kick sets, just the kickboard or head down with a snorkel and, you know, you get your top former in the kick set comes out, right? And we all know who that is. Then we go to a pool set with pool boy and bands with paddles. And, you know, the guys go down, we probably, you know, get to know who the best puller is in the squad, but very seldom in the squads I’ve worked with that sub-elite even to elite level are those two individuals the best kicker or the guy that won the kick set and the guy that won the stroke set are they the best swimmer? More often potentially the best stroker is the best swimmer, but very seldom are they the best swimmer. It’s the one that’s more or less average or just above average in both kick and pool that generally is the guy that is the best swimmer. And ultimately then the kick is only

of, well, the kick is of greater worth tied in with stroke. That makes sense. So the propulsion we get from the kick is only is compounded when it’s actually tied into timing of the actual stroke. So what you mentioned there by, you know, your physio friend and, you know, the athlete with a shoulder injury and all that type of thing, going back down to kick and just understanding the concepts of the kick, we see that at the highest level too. A lot of athletes are rendered out for a period of time and they need to get back in the water and we need them in the water as soon as possible because it is just such an unnatural environment. So a lot of the coaches just resort to kick and often with a lot of them who were average kickers to start off with become really good kickers and the moment they turn the stroke on, all of a sudden you just see them swimming in a totally different way and it just seems, well, it’s often much better than they were

to start off with. And is there certain drills or ways you try and get those swimmers to feel in order to help them connect up the timing of their kick and the rest of their stroke? Is there a couple of go-tos that you have? Yeah, there is. There’s actually one that I do quite regularly and it’s actually very difficult to work out. And I even have top level swimmers, guys who have been making finals at a World Championships freestyle struggle with this one. But I feel if you can master this at any level, I feel you’re winning or you’re definitely on the right track. And this is when you can potentially use yourself for sharing with the guys out there. But the whole understanding of timing, now we have different rhythms or rates that we want to swim at and we all kind of have more or less of an idealistic rating that we conform to. So subconsciously, if we’re just swimming nicely in the water, we generally have a certain rate

that we conform to. So let’s consider that rate as your kind of average, your middle ground, right? Now, if we develop a kick and let’s say we keep the kick,

a forebeat kick. So four beats of the kick within one stroke cycle. So from right hand entry in to right hand entry in, they’re four kicks. Now, we keep the forebeat kick going consistently.

I like the athletes shifting from a low rating to what they’re normalised, from a low rating through to the first area of the pool. And then shifting to their middle ground rating and then shifting to a slightly higher rating. And for you as the coach or someone on the side of the pool deck looking in, you need to see those very definite gear shifts over the three ratings. So kick stay is exactly the same, but the rating changes over three thirds of the pool.

And then what you do is, once you get to the opposite side, say in a 50 metre pool, then you try and aim to keep your stroke rate to that middle ground, right? Keep the stroke rate to that middle ground and then you start altering your kick around your actual stroke rate. And this is where it gets really tough. Because ultimately, if we think about running even, if we’re running on the spot, the faster we move our arms, the faster we move our legs, right? In swimming, it doesn’t necessarily need to work that way. So the moment we rate up, we have this tendency to want to kick more and often overkick and that becomes a very reactive, inefficient type stroke. So overcoming this one is probably the biggest challenge for most, but generally comes with a best outcome. If we can adjust kick tempo around consistent stroke rate. So again, go through your three gears, but the kick changes from a two beat to a four beat to a six beat kick

and your rating stays exactly the same. And that’s within that last 50, we’re saying, or you’d go through say 350s where the first one would be a two beat, then a four beat and then a six beat?

No, so just through the 50, yeah. Oh, gotcha, okay, so. Yeah, so through the 50, you would go through, yeah, three segments of the 50, break it into three segments and literally to 15 meters, so don’t do any underwater, but through 15, through 30, then to 45. That you would, through the fifth, well, to the 15, you’d be doing, you know, rating at your lower rate, keeping the kick consistent. Then from 15 to 30, you’d be at your middle ground, rate keeping the kick consistent. Then from 30 to 45 or to the end of the pool, you’d be a higher rate keeping your kick consistent. And then, you know, rest at the other end of the pool, push off, then keeping your, try and get up and get your stroke at your normal, at your middle ground to start off with, and don’t even kick. And then start bringing a two beat kick through the 15, and 15 to 30, increase the kick beats to like four kicks. Stroke stays exactly the same. And then through the 30 into the wall,

you’d probably pick the kick up to around a six beat kick, but the stroke rate stays exactly the same. And first on the side of the pool, if you start switching it up and you start getting good at this, the coach or your fellow athlete or peer should be looking into the pool and saying you adjusted stroke on that one and you adjusted kick on that one. And if you get to that and it’s very defined, then I think you’ve come a long way. Oh, that’s good. I became, I was becoming a lot more aware of this probably, probably a year and a half ago, when I started doing, I did some filming with a swim rapper in Queensland, Andrew Spoor. He was a turn of freestyleer and he used, he was very good with a four beat kick. And I was sort of looking at that and he spoke a bit about it. And then I started to sort of look a little bit deeper into that and started to play around with it myself. And I found over the course of that 18 months

I’ve gotten a lot better at being able to shift gears from your two beat, four beat, six beat. And especially for distance swimming, I’ve found anything 200 meters or more really, but particularly distance swimming, being able to control your effort and output and be a lot more efficient by choosing a two or a four beat for those longer swims. It’s, it really gives you a lot of, we can save a lot of effort and energy, but it really helps me control my speed very well. Because with the timing of that kick, you can just really settle into a good rhythm. And that’s what I find can sort of set out like the consistent breathing pattern and a good kick will, is it the basis of a good rhythm there? And yeah, and it’s something that I’d never, I hadn’t really ever considered much before. And having swum since I was like four years of age and only just figuring it out now. And I’ve been coaching for that long. It’s like, well, I can see how some of those guys

at the very top have made, not have sort of been able to do it straight away. Because it’s just one of those extra things that I don’t think a lot of people get taught early on. Oh, for sure. Definitely. And timing is key in all strokes. And just how propulsive means from the kick and the stroke work together is crucial. And ultimately, if you talk about efficiency in swimming, that timing goes a very, very long way. And often if we come up to like an over rotation in a freestyle breathing, over rotate into the breathing side, often that throws the timing up. And as we fatigue, we breathe for longer. And then all of a sudden we’ve just become so inefficient because we’re rotating so much more to the one side. And through our core, are unable to kind of keep our hips up, hips start dropping. But all of a sudden we start working against ourselves and the timing just goes out of back.

Even at the highest level often, if you see guys and maybe a 200 freestyle, 400 freestyle, you’d see that one guy, he’d be going out quite strong and he might be leading the race, let’s say. And then if he senses through the middle portion of the race or to the back end of the race, the table is starting to kind of come up on him and he can feel that he’s losing ground. And then he reacts. And once they react, they often lose the timing of their stroke. And all of a sudden you just see them go straight out the back. And that’s what we try and prevent athletes from doing. Especially if you are kind of that athlete that is a little bit stronger out the front end of your race. Then maybe the guys are probably going to be coming back at you towards the end. But even sensing that, you just need to kind of maintain relatively efficient,

relative efficiency within your stroke, good length, good pressure on the water and all that type of thing. It all comes down to that rhythm and flow and that connectedness of your stroke. Yeah, that’s a big one. And what I’ve started to teach at Clinics is we go through drills and then we do some swimming in between because we want to connect the purpose of the drill to the swim stroke. And one of the things that I’ve found helpful with that is getting them to think about what you’re trying to achieve in the drill, being your thinking brain, that’s where you want to be. But when you come to swimming, to the swim portion of that, try and go a bit more by feel because as soon as you’re overthinking it when you’re swimming, you’re going to lose that timing by 0.05 of a second or 0.1 of a second. And as soon as you lose it even by that much, completely yeah, disconnect. So that’s when you really want to go more for that sort of feeling brain.

And that’s when the timing comes in and that rhythm and connection. And it doesn’t take much to lose it. Yeah, for sure. I mean, a great way to kind of go around that and I like the way you kind of hear and talk about your thinking, your feeling brain kind of speak

if we consider a particular drill

and we isolate that drill to one particular thing that we’re trying to improve for the athletes, then it couldn’t be quite contrasting or quite far removed from the stroke itself. But we need to think about what that drill is trying to achieve, right? And that’s where we’re very much in that thinking space in your example.

And we need to do it the right way and appropriately to the intention. And the drills are just done to kind of get that 400 drill out of the way, drill and swim, type of thing in a warmup. And to me, drills are probably the most important part of the actual warmup because that’s what sets us up. And if we think of like priming a stove when we’re camping and we don’t need to do that these days, but priming a stove and camping, you’re ultimately getting that stove ready to burn. And that’s how I feel kind of drills serve that purpose. So drills could change from one day to the next with a group of athletes, but ultimately they are there to kind of prime us to get the job done when the man sets it.

And the way it would look through drills there, they could be re-isolated and very kind of, you know, left of sense, but we need to understand what they’re trying to achieve. We’re in that thinking space. And then we progressively move that drill into what makes better sense and how it could potentially tie into swimming. And then we get into, you know, levels where it actually starts tying into swimming. And then all of a sudden it’s in our stroke and then we start feeling it within our stroke. And that’s how we generally float around progressive means within a skill acquisition type space.

It’s good to hear you say that because that’s what we’ve, what I’ve tried to do and do that with the swimmers who come to our clinics is that when they leave, the way we like them to incorporate it into their training is as part of the warmup every session if they can. Otherwise, just as often as they can, do some drills that are specific to those things that you want to work on, do them in the warmup, get a feel for those things that you want to change in your stroke and then just go about your main set and your session and obviously keep that in the back of your mind, but you set it up. You set up the feel for it with the drills and doing that regularly and consistently is how you’ll change that habit and acquire that skill. It’s not about doing one session focused on technique once every two or three weeks because it’s not going to change anything there. It’s about that consistency.

For sure. In this environment, as a natural environment, as it is in the water, we need to do it consistently in order to get the carryover. For sure.

And before we, I know you’ve got to go soon, is there anything that you feel like we haven’t talked about that could be helpful for some, say a triathlete or an open water swimmer out there who might be stuck in a bit of a plateau and they just want to get faster or they’re frustrated with their swimming? Is there some advice that you have for someone out there who wants to get better but they feel a little bit stuck?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I come from a bit of a triathlon background myself was an age group swimmer at school and all that got into triathlon as well and was relatively competitive, well, mostly off-road triathlon. So yeah, I’ve been in that position before and being stuck in a rut, especially on the swimming front. And ultimately with triathletes, I feel the struggle, the biggest struggle with triathletes is often the case of while you’re doing one thing, you’re thinking about the other two disciplines.

And that was always my issues. I always liked dealing with a lot of information. So I never really got to grips with one particular thing or when I was doing swimming, I was thinking about the bike and the run but I was really thinking about swimming. And we really need to, I mean, in a triathlon space, get our heads around actually dealing with the sport that we’re currently doing and really kind of getting our teeth into while we’re doing it.

That to me would probably be some advice I’d give to triathletes just having been in that space before because that’s something I feel I could have done better for sure.

And then open water swimmers, it just generally is the case. I mean, monotonous is certainly where it’s at with them and heaps and heaps of laps up and down the pool or laps around open water, whatever it is. And what I’d say here could probably speak to anyone but just trying to think of your stroke in a slightly different way or breaking your stroke or breaking your, I’m going to say, your set, breaking into proportions or by size portions and having a different focus on each of those. And if we think about like a 1500 meter in an Olympic event, those athletes, the way they think about it is some of them actually think about it in 500 meter portions, others think about it in 300 meter portions but ultimately when we do analysis on those races I can see a characteristic trait for each swimmer as to what they’re trying to focus on and sometimes it might be every second turn and sometimes it might be every third 50

that they focus on something different. The rate might change every third 50, their turn might be improved every second turn and or they might be trying to even split the third and the fourth 200 something like that. It’s just there always seems to be a strategy around that and with open water in particular they like getting out there and getting into rhythm and getting a flow as well but ultimately to start thinking around not necessarily a pacing strategy but just different, a thinking strategy or queuing strategy, Louis is probably phrasing it that way, that if we go out there we want to feel kind of good easy efficient flow in the way we’re doing it and obviously we’re not fatigued to start off with so we can find that kind of easy connectedness in that flow and not try and overdo it out front and then the moment fatigue starts setting in that might onset slightly earlier with some might onset slightly later with others

then we just need to have a queuing mechanism as to what that might be and often in open water that might relate to the breathing pattern. How are we breathing? Is the timing of our breaths impeding elements of our stroke? And often it does and if I could wish anything upon any swimmer in this world it would be that we didn’t have to breathe because breathing throws the spanner in the works with regards to swimming often and dealing at my level I’ve only seen very very few athletes breathe properly

in a freestyle space

so that queue could be potentially around kind of timing of the breaths and what that looks like then moving on from there it might be timing of the kick in relation to the stroke and challenge all athletes doing longer distances to try and find out what that particular point is that they know whether the timing is on or not whether it’s entry of the right hand stroke and the kick down on the left leg there needs to be a critical point that if you nail that you feel your timing is on so that might be something you could think about that middle portion to kind of back end of your race and then really towards the back end of a race you know whether it’s 10Ks, a 5K or a 3K or a 1500 you know to not feel like you need to shift it up a gear and all of a sudden some are very different to upper stroke that gear adjustment could be quite progressive and you need to maintain relative efficiency kind of doing that and often I feel if they try and shift gears

they react and that’s where we start to give them that disconnectedness that we spoke about a little earlier

yeah, does that make sense or…? Yeah I think that’s great especially yeah so I mean the first thing is being present when you are in the water and as best you can trying to focus on the thing that you’re doing and it’s very easy to get distracted and think about what you’ve got coming up or just wanting to get through the session and particularly with swim watches where people are always on them starting stopping it’s just a massive distraction from your technique and I think so many people could improve so much faster if they just left the watch in their swim bag and didn’t use it while they were swimming because you are going to get a lot more benefit from actually being present and feeling the water and feeling what your stroke is doing and feeling how much effort you’re putting in for the pace that you’re getting and get that time just from the 60 second clock you’ll get so much more out of that than by uploading it to stravering

and seeing that over the course of a year your pace has improved that way but no I think leave that in your gear bag it doesn’t help you most of the time Yeah I couldn’t agree more when I was running my fastest I used to leave my heart rate monitor at home that’s when I’d leave you on my fastest

Yeah that’s right because you’re just too worried about oh jeez my heart rates up this high and you know exactly you start regulating yourself around that or if it’s not looking good you almost start subduing yourself so it’s all trying out of yourself and it is a crazy crazy barrier they’re there for good reason I would say and a lot of these smart devices nowadays give us so much information it’s awesome but yeah we get too caught up in it and triathletes having a space that I’ve been in for quite a period of time we get too caught up in that space and the more gimmicks the better and ultimately then it’s just they become huge impedance to a real performance in the end of the day Yeah couldn’t agree more Well Ryan thank you so much for being on the podcast and I’ve really enjoyed chatting to you and I’m sure that those people listening have got a lot out of it as well so thank you very much and for anybody who wants to

maybe get in touch with you what’s the best way

Generally on phone call no problem otherwise on email that’s probably the easiest I would say I’m always open for kind of sharing my ideas and all that type of thing and ultimately to me you know regardless of what level of athletes you are I’d always love people super exceeding their own expectations and that’s ultimately what I’m here for at the highest level it’s really tricky we look for marginal gains it’s not 1% it’s 0.01% that we generally looking for and we you know celebrate those but at a lower level there definitely are different ways of thinking about things that could crowd an outcome and that obviously at the work you do as well and just seeing some of the time drops guys have had you know in their triathlon and open water swims you know the work you’re doing clearly is kind of having an impact and you know I’m all in in that regard so people are kind of wanting to come to me with with questions thoughts or ideas

you know welcome them all and yet phone call or email is probably the best way if you enjoyed today’s podcast and you’re interested in improving your own technique we have a number of camps coming up in 2020 that if you are an adult you swim in any capacity whether it’s for fitness whether you’re doing pool swimming competitive swimming or triathlon or open water swimming we have a number of camps coming up in Thailand, Hawaii and Nusa which is in Queensland Australia so if you go to our website at effortlesswimming.com you’ll see the details of each of those camps and what we do at those camps is each day at the very start of the the camps we do underwater filming and analysis with you and we look at the two to three aspects of your stroke that are worth working on and improving those things that will give you the biggest benefit over the course of three to six months and then throughout the camp every single day

we work with you very closely one on one where we help you improve your technique and make those changes over the course of the camp and then you leave the camp not only having had a great time had a lot of fun but you will have improved your technique your times will more than likely have come down over the course of the five or seven days and you’ll have an action plan you know exactly what you need to do and you will have started that process to find yourself swimming faster three to six months down the track and so if that sounds like something that you would enjoy having a swimming holiday and a swimming camp in Hawaii, Thailand or Nusa then check out the website at effortlesswimming.com I run all of those camps and we also have two to three other coaches on each of the camps as well so it’s not just me that you work with but a number of other coaches other coaches we have on board ones like Gary Haring who’s former Olympic swimmer

an Olympic coach from New Zealand professional triathlete Mitchell Kibbe we have Phil Rush who has the fastest two and three-way crossing of Lingers Channel we have Eony Jones who you’ve probably heard on this podcast a number of times so there’s a wide range of other coaches who do attend the clinics and coach with me and who you’ll be working with on those camps so I hope to see it one of them in 2020 most of them are at least half full and some of them are already sold out so just make sure you do book that early if you are interested so thanks very much for listening I hope you enjoyed it and I will see you on another episode of the Effortless Swimming Podcast thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming Podcast if you’d like us to help you become a faster more efficient swimmer go to www.effortlesswimming.com

The post High-Level Biomechanics For Weekend Warriors with Ryan Hodierne appeared first on Effortless Swimming.

My guest is Tim Ford, who is someone I’ve known for the last few years, and a number of years ago, he started his triathlon journey and over that time he’s lost more than 50 kilos. He’s completely changed his life with respect to his health, his fitness, and his work, and I think it’s a really good story to share on how a simple idea can spark a complete life change in someone.

On today’s episode, we look at what are some of those things that Tim has changed to turn around his life and become a completely different person and we also share some of the things that we feel can help other people become better athletes, whether that’s a triathlon or whether it’s swimming. And focusing in on the things that you can control and that you can change and why it pays to always have a longterm approach to this stuff.

03:07 “I Stopped Weighing Myself When I Reached 120 Kilos.”
05:11 “My First Triathlon Was A Disaster”
07:20 “I Bought A Fancy Carbon Fiber Bike After My First Race”
09:11 Triathlon Is More Of A Race Against Yourself
10:13 What Motivates You?
12:14 Little Improvements
15:24 The Switch
20:07 When Your Hobby Becomes Your Job
21:33 Being A Coach
25:17 “I’d Rather And Potentially Fail At Something That I Really Care About, Rather Than Never Try At All”
27:35 Collaboration Is The Most Underrated Thing In Our Sport
30:55 Stepping Out OF Your Comfort Zone
32:37 Hardwork and Commitment Often Leads To Good Things
33:04 Leaving The Judgement Aside
39:05 Coming Up For Tim Ford

https://mxendurance.com/

Transcription:

Brenton Ford: I’d like to welcome Tim Ford to the podcast. So Tim, everyone thinks that we are related, that we’re brothers, maybe cousins. I’m not sure. Maybe we are, but I haven’t found that to be the case just yet. But I think we could easily be mistaken for brothers. So first of all, welcome to the podcast and maybe we can be quasi brothers or cousins.

Tim Ford: Thank you so much. I think it’s the good looks mate, and we both swim-

Brenton Ford: That’s got to be it.

Tim Ford: … But blessed with such good looks, it’s hard for people to mistake the two. I mean, it’s an easy mistake to make. So thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to come onto your show and have a bit of a chat. I really enjoy doing this stuff, so yeah, thank you so much.

Brenton Ford: Oh, it’s my pleasure. And we’ve sort of known each other for a couple of years and sort of cross paths a bit obviously through triathlon. And one of the things I want to sort of focus in on, on this podcast today is how much of a change you’ve gone through personally, in sport and I guess just general sort of lifestyle over the last five to 10 years. And some of the people who are listening to this may know your story from where you came from to where you are now, but I think it’d be really good to just cover what your life was like five to 10 years ago and what you’re currently doing now. So, in terms of what did life look like about 10 years ago, what was that for you?

Tim Ford: Yeah. I think 10 years ago is, what are we talking? 2009, I was working full time in digital marketing and hospitality and I was neglecting my diet, and I was not exercising. I was drinking more nights a week than I wasn’t, and I guess I just didn’t really even think about health as something you’re even worried about? I was like, I’m young, it’ll be okay, it’ll be okay. And I also think when you probably do neglect your health, it’s very easy to push those sorts of things out of your mind so you don’t ever really dwell on them. And I was getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger and I used to always say to myself, “As long as I’m under a hundred kilos, it’s okay. As long as I’m under 110 kilos, it’s okay. As long as I’m under 120 kilos, it’s okay.”

Tim Ford: And then once I sort of got over that 120-kilo mark on the scale, I stopped weighing myself because I guess it was very difficult to turn a blind eye to that number when rationally you know that it shouldn’t be that high probably. But I just didn’t really worry too much about it, kept going on my way and I was really lucky to have this English guy, his name was Rob Wooly, he came and worked with me at the same hotel that I was working at. And I remember he was skinny as a rake and he was always getting up crazy early to go swim and run and bike and all this stuff. And he told me he was doing this thing called a half iron man. I was like, “What’s that?” He goes, “Well, you swim two kilometers or 1.9 kilometers, you ride 90 kilometers and then you run a half marathon.”

Tim Ford: And I laughed at him. I literally was like, why the hell would you want to do that? Like that sounds horrific. And yeah, off he went and we actually ended up living next door to each other, so we started to hang out a bit. And I remember like probably a couple of months later, the beginning of 2010, it was my birthday and he said, “I want to sign you up for a triathlon for your birthday.” And I was like, yeah, okay, why not? I couldn’t do that. Never actually thinking about the implications of what that would mean or what work I would need to do to get there.

Tim Ford: And I said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” So he signed me up for the Byron Bay Triathlon, which is on the North coast of new South Wales and I did it, and I probably put weight on in preparing for that race. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I just went, Oh, I’ll just swim a bit, I’ll just run a bit, I’ll just ride a bit and it was a disaster. It was an absolute, it was horrific. Took me four hours and five minutes to complete that race, which these days takes me about two hours to finish. I was absolutely dead last, I think. You just name it, a day before the race went and hired a wet suit because you’re told you need a wet suit and went and got a big heavy surf wet suit that of course didn’t fit me properly because I was so overweight and I had to take it off about 400 meters when I was swimming. I remember going up to one of the spotters on their boards and saying, “Do you mind if I take this wetsuit off? Can you take it into the surf club for me? I’ll pick it up after the race.”

Tim Ford: I think after the race realizing I had a flat tire, I don’t know how long I had that for. I think it’s funny to look back at what was actually a comedy of errors, but obviously worth it because yeah, I guess something flicked, a switch flicked in my head at that race or something I guess. I think one of the things I would say to people is, I’m the sort of person that if I am going to do something, I do try to do it properly. And I definitely walked away from that race feeling like I didn’t do it properly, so I wanted to do better and yeah, sort of kick-started things.

Brenton Ford: And how long after that race did you race again or start training? Was there a gap in between? Or did you just look at it and go, okay, I think I can do better than that, and you just got straight back into it? Or was there a point in time where you went like, that was a good birthday present, but I’m sort of done there?

Tim Ford: I think I remember that I really enjoyed the bike lake, but I think one of the things, when you’re big exercise hurts a lot. I mean it always, it hurts now, but it’s just different sort of pain I think. And I remember thinking that bike was actually okay. So I’d gone away and I bought myself a fancy carbon fiber bike, pretty much straight after actually. I remember I was pretty motivated, most people who’ve ever done sort of any race will know that there’s nothing quite as motivating as finishing a race and going, I want to do another one. So I started training again, I guess a bit more serious, probably a month or two later, nothing too specific. Did a lot of bike riding or by those standards, a lot of bike riding with my mate, my mate Rob. And it wasn’t until probably the start or the end of that year, 2010, 2011 where I picked a race that I wanted to do in July. And that’s when I started to, I guess really focus on the how, I actually wanted to do better at this event. I set of challenge for my wife and two of her friends that they were going to do a relay, and I had to go faster than their relay team did.

Tim Ford: So the race was in July and I think I went 02:45:00 at my second triathlon, which the main thing for me I remember that day was, I just wanted to be able to run the 10 kilometers. I was like, if I can run the 10 kilometers without walking, probably 9.5 like I think I did at that first one, I’ll be happy. And I did, I managed to run the whole 10K. I was over the moon and then I think a year later I did that race again and went 02:24:00, and then not long after did my first 70.3. So that was sort of my progression into the sport was more like, I guess, and has always has been, it’s about beating myself, always trying to improve on my performance rather than, no, I’ve never really been one motivated by racing other people, or beating other people or anything like that.

Brenton Ford: I think triathlon’s a big one for that isn’t it? Because there’s so many different ways that you can improve and get faster, so many different things you can change and test and it’s a real race against yourself. And I remember seeing one of your posts pretty recently, I think from the Sunny Coast Tri, where you said you were disappointed with your time, you thought you could have gone a bit faster with it.

Tim Ford: Yeah.

Brenton Ford: But looking back over the last few years, let’s say a couple of years ago, four or five years ago, you look at the time that you did, you’d think, wow, that is amazing. And it’s very easy to forget where you’ve come from and just sort of look at where you are now. But yeah, it’s one of the harder things to do I think, is just to reflect and look back at how much you have improved and where you… Like you’re a very, very good age group triathlete now and very competitive, and really in that upper part of the field and racing a lot. So what motivates you now? Is it the similar things? Is it trying to just beat your own times, or is there other things that are motivating you now compared to a couple of years ago?

Tim Ford: I think the big one for me, and I didn’t ever really set out with this goal, it just sort of, I stumbled across it. At some point, I thought that’d be cool, was, I’m now trying to complete a 70.3 in 04:05:00, because that was the same amount of time it took me to do that first Olympic distance race. And that really motivates me, that’s something that I really draw on a lot when I’m maybe struggling, or not that motivated, or whatever it is, I remind myself of that goal. And again, I’m very happy to admit that there’s a very good chance I probably won’t achieve that goal, but working towards it is something that I find incredibly motivating. And I think the big one for me, and again, I never really set out for this to be the case, but I’ve had a lot of people who have said that they’ve found what I did inspiring and therefore they thought that a lot of people have lost weight because they’ve seen what I could do and thought, yeah, I can do that too.

Tim Ford: And that’s something that I also really am motivated by, or I think whenever I race and I’m doing a turf, I get this idea that there could be some person who’s thinking about doing their first triathlon, If they say, “Oh, I hate this, it’s terrible,” it might turn them off. So that always sort of makes me want to go, and again, I always try to do my best because I want people who are thinking is impossible, this is hard or this is not something I can ever do to. Guess you what? Yeah, okay. If Tim can do it, I can, because I really mean this.

Tim Ford: I get asked all the time, what’s the secret to weight loss? I am the most ordinary stock standard guy out there, that there’s absolutely nothing exceptional about me. And I did it and I thought I couldn’t do it. So if I can, there’s absolutely no reason why anybody else who’s out there struggling with their weight, or their health, or whatever, couldn’t do it as well because yeah, there’s nothing extraordinary about me whatsoever.

Brenton Ford: And I think so many things, the answer to so many things is often a lot simpler than what we imagine them to be as well. Like how do you get better at swimming? How do you get better at triathlon? Well, eat well, do it consistently, do it regularly, maybe get a coach and just follow that over the course of months and over the course of years. And look at yourself three, four, five years later and there’s a very good chance that you’re going to make that improvement. And if you follow that and you can be consistent with it, it can make a big difference.

Brenton Ford: And one of the things I really enjoy about coaching swimming is, when people come into swim, they might come into a clinic, they’re doing triathlons and the swim is their least favorite leg, a lot of people say they really don’t enjoy it. But when they turn that around, and they do start to enjoy it because they might have a few different things they can now focus on, they’re seeing these little improvements happen over time, then they start to get addicted to that, and they really start to enjoy it and they change their whole mindset and perspective around going to the pool, or swimming in the ocean, or approaching their races.

Brenton Ford: And I think it’s the same with competing in tris where, as you said, when you’re unfit, when you’re unhealthy, that pain is a different kind of pain. It’s a really sucky sort of pain, but as you get fitter and better at it, for me at least, I really enjoy that sort of struggle and that pain. But if I’ve had a couple of weeks out of the water, it’s not a fun sort of pain.

Tim Ford: I think what you just said there, I can think of a real tangible example of that. And that’s a few years ago, I really wasn’t enjoying my swimming and this is before I’d ever done one of your clinics or anything. But you brought out those, the out of track on swimming videos.

Brenton Ford: Yeah.

Tim Ford: And I remember I bought the series and I watched them, and it was Clayton Fettel doing all the, the super fish Clayton Fettel, and I think it was Annabel Luxford maybe was in the video as well?

Brenton Ford: Yeah.

Tim Ford: It was swimming. And I remember I went to the pool and just focused in on a few of those things that I did in the videos. I was suddenly really motivated about swimming again because it gave me something other than constant thinking, “Oh, I hate this. Oh this is boring. Oh this is no good,” to suddenly being like, actually focusing on parts of my swimming. And I remember I got really motivated, and you’re really right about the racing thing. Like I say to people, I love the pain the next day, that feeling of DOMS in my muscles the day after a race, it’s almost like a badge of honor because it tells me that I’ve actually really pushed myself to my limit.

Tim Ford: And like I said, you’re right. I had a race a few weeks that I wasn’t very satisfied with my results. I was definitely happy with my effort, but I feel like I could have been better, but I was not that sore the next day and I was a bit like, yeah, I’m a bit disappointed about that because it shows that I didn’t give everything physically that I could have, and yeah, it is. There’s something very rewarding or satisfying about that pain these days. Whereas when you’re bigger or you’re unfit, it’s not play. It’s just like, Oh, this is the worst, this is so bad. Why am I doing this to myself. It’s a different conversation.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. And I think as well, when you get to that point where you miss, if you don’t exercise in the day, and you’re really annoyed with yourself, “Geez, I really need to get some physical exertion happening here. I feel like I really need to sort of let go of this built up energy that I’ve got.” That’s a very different approach than going, “Oh, I have to go and exercise, I have to go and run.” And it’s that sort of switch that really makes the difference. And I’ve just had that over the last couple of weeks and couple of months where over winter it happens every time. I tend to not train as much, and I’m a bit soft with the cold and all of that, but coming out of winter leading into spring and summer, I just get really excited about the upcoming season of swims, and I’m going to start to do some off-road tris and I’m just really excited about it.

Brenton Ford: And so now I’m getting to that point where every day I just want to try and at least run or swim, whatever it might be, and I’m looking forward to it. And if I don’t get something done that day, I’m annoyed with myself, and that’s how that consistency’s starting to build up now.

Tim Ford: That’s what I say to people as well. I think I’ve gotten to a point in these days where it’s not even a case of, if I can do my workout, it’s I’m going to do it. It’s just part of my routine now, like I’ve made it. It’s not even a case of prioritize. I think consistency is such a big part of that. I’ve done this now for so long, where that’s just how I operate my days. I do my work when I need to, I do my training when I need to, and I just feed everything in. So yeah, there’s some days where I don’t do something where maybe something comes up, and my wife will just go, “Just get out of the house and go for a run or something. Well, you’re killing me, you’re a nightmare, just do some exercise. You’re going hyper.”

Tim Ford: And even the relationship with exercise has changed a lot for me. I used to always, yes, think of it as this thing you have to do where now, like for example, running for me, a long, long time I hated running and then I don’t know, something switched in my head. And I think my long run is probably my favorite session now because it’s like almost, it’s my most selfish time for me. I never take a phone with me. I always like listen to an audio book or podcast or something that I want to listen to, and it’s just my time. And I’ve really, really come to really enjoy that part of my week, and it is. When I think when you start to think about your activities in that way, rather than, okay, I’ve got to check this off the list or whatever, it does just change your whole approach to make it a lot more enjoyable.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, I can relate to that. A couple of years ago when I built up and did Tapou, Ironman, those long runs where I was running down Beach Road here in Melbourne, and the longer runs, 15 up to sort of 25 and I think maybe 30Ks for the longest one, it was so enjoyable because it’s like you just sit at this steady pace, and you just listen to your footsteps and your heartbeat and you just get into this really nice rhythm and routine where you’re not really thinking about much else, and you’re just in the zone. And was doing this over, leading into the Rottnest Channel Swim. I was training with a friend down at Half Moon Bay and we were doing our longer swims on a Wednesday morning and pretty much every time, except for once or twice. We got these great conditions where there’s no wind, the water was like a lake, and it’s just peaceful. The sun’s starting to come up as we’re swimming, and we’re swimming for two, three, three and a half hours and we were kind of just going straight for stroke next to each other, and it was just beautiful.

Brenton Ford: I couldn’t think of anything else I’d rather be doing than that at the time. And it’s that that really sort of clears the mind. And then after that exercise in the morning, I’m thinking so clearly with, all right, what do I need to do, work wise and coaching and everything and it just can set you up very well for the day. And I can relate to, my wife, she can tell if I haven’t exercised and same thing, she’s, get out of the house, just go do something. She’ll be kicking me out the door, because I’m a better person once I’ve exercised.

Tim Ford: Yeah. I reckon you’re right there. There’s something about, especially swimming, I do a lot of my open water swimming at Bondi Beach in Sydney and I think one of the… We are very lucky in Sydney that even in winter you can still swim in the ocean, it’s a little bit cold when you get in, but there’s been so many mornings when I’ve gotten up, and I don’t live very close to the beach here, so that’s a good 40 minute drive for me to get there. But as soon as I’m done, I go like, man, this is such a good way to start the day. Like there really is something about, especially swimming I think, where you’re always, apart from the insane appetite that I always seem to get after a swim, there’s something very nice about just starting the day, the sun comes up, you got that sunrise, and you’re in the water, and it’s beautiful and flat and calm, and yeah, it’s amazing.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve sort of changed work-wise what you’re doing now. So you’ve basically, you’ve gone full in with triathlon as the CEO of MX Endurance. You run, well, you host two podcasts and everything is around sport and triathlon. So what’s that change been like for you in terms of, I guess happiness around the work that you’re doing and the purpose around the work that you’re doing? What’s that been like for you over the last couple of years as you’ve moved into it?

Tim Ford: I still have to pinch myself a lot of the time. I still can’t really believe that this is what I do now, it’s so funny, I was finishing, I went away and studied law, so I’ve just graduated law degree 18 months ago. And it was around that same time where Maca asked if I wanted to run the team for him, and I was like, are you sure? Me? And it’s been incredible. I think there’s been some challenges that I don’t think a lot of people will probably, a lot of people think I’d love to do this. This is what I’m passionate about, it’s my hobby. I think that the biggest thing that I’ve been shocked by is, I’ve had to almost set a lot of very strict boundaries because it’s very easy when your hobby becomes your job to work a lot more without realizing it, and that’s been something that for me that I struggle with, I struggle with for quite a while.

Tim Ford: Again, my wife would be like, “You’re on your laptop again. What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing?” But it’s incredible being able to, I guess play such a part in other people’s journeys through the sport, which is something I’m really grateful. And like you said, that the coaching thing. So I coach, I’ve got a fairly substantial number of athletes at the moment that I never imagined I’d be a coach, ever. Like I never, it’s almost a bit of a triathlon cliché, I think these days you become an age group athlete, you get a race wrong, you almost become a coach. I never thought I’d travel that path. For me it was, I do this sport to improve myself. And it wasn’t until I had some athletes approach me and ask if I’d coach and I was like, okay, I’m happy to give it a go on it.

Tim Ford: I found, like I do with the MX thing, the satisfaction I get out of other people’s success is, I think I almost get more excited when people I coach or work with do well than when I do myself. I can’t even explain that feeling. And it’s something that I’m sure other people who coach out there get. That you see as a coach, or again with MX, the work people put in, that I think when you’re doing it yourself, you’re not always aware of. I think it’s very easy to get caught up in what you’re doing and just focus on that end goal. Whereas as a coach, I see the whole picture a lot of the time and you see that person, you see their struggles, you see them dealing with things. They might have a family problem that comes up so they miss a week of training, or they get sick, or they get a little bit injured, or whatever it is and then you see them get to that race and exceed their expectations, or meet their expectations or whatever and I love it. I absolutely love it so much.

Tim Ford: And like I said, I am under no illusions of how lucky I am to have the career I now have. There’s not many people who have a sporting hero who asks them to come and run their company for them. And I still sit there in meetings with Maca and I have to pinch myself sometimes. I’m like, holy shit, this is real, this isn’t a dream. At the same time I find it, I think it’s probably, I put a lot of pressure on myself for that as well because I am working for somebody that I’ve idolized. I don’t want to let him down a lot of the time as well, so I think that’s probably why I do work as hard as I do about it. But yeah, it is crazy to think that 10 years ago I was working in marketing and hospitality and here I am, my entire life now basically is about the endurance sports coaching and triathlon. And it’s surreal and I am aware of how lucky I am, and I’m very grateful for that as well, I think.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. And it’s great to say, because it’s very easy to get stuck doing what you’re doing and thinking that there’s no other options out there. And looking 10 years ago, I’m sure you would have never thought that this is something that you’d be doing, and coaching people in triathlon and obviously running MX Endurance as well. And I remember when I first, well, when I first started Effortless Swimming I thought, what right do I have to be coaching or teaching other people? Like who am I to do that? And yeah, maybe in the very early days, maybe that was true, I had no experience as a, very little experience as a coach, I’d just been an athlete. But over the last 10 plus years start, I feel like we get a pretty good sense of how we can help people and what makes a difference with their swimming. And you just get that experience and you build that confidence. And you work with more athletes, and you’re able to help more people and find out what works with them and you continue to build on that success and that confidence. And there’s no reason why where you’re at today has to be where you going to be for the next five, 10, 20 years.

Tim Ford: It’s exactly right and even easier. I find it quite funny, especially my grandparents were always like, “But what about your law degree?”

Brenton Ford: Yeah, it’s funny.

Tim Ford: And I said to my nana, I say this to her all the time, like, “Nana, my law degree is not going anywhere. And I’d rather try and potentially fail at something that I really care about rather than never try at all and just go into something that I don’t, not want to do, but I’m not as interested about.” And yeah, I took a chance. And that’s the thing, law’s a pretty good backup to have, marketing’s a pretty good, I’m pretty sure that should all this fail as I’m constantly worried that it will, I’ll have things to back myself up with. And I think the coaching thing is really, really interesting too, because I think when I started, you’re right, I was like, I have no right to be telling people what to do. I barely know myself a lot of the time. And I think it was for myself, I was very quick to put this label, ‘I coach beginner athletes.’ ‘Oh, don’t, I’m not a real coach, I just worry about people who are trying to lose weight. I’m just helping them.’

Tim Ford: And it wasn’t until I started to have athletes go better and better, and I think I had a guy coached last year, and he went 04:20:00 on debut to 70.3. And I am not claiming responsibility, he’s an incredible, Luke is an incredible athlete, but it made me go, this isn’t a beginner athlete. Like that’s pretty impressive for a first and I’ve coached him for nearly two years. Maybe I need to stop considering myself purely a beginner coach now and, and I think with most things, what you put out is what you get back. And without even realizing, I picked up a stable of quite good athletes. I absolutely still think I gravitate a lot towards those beginner guys who want to lose weight and that’s my niche, my comfort zone. I think I have a lot of experience that I can give them, but yeah, I have definitely, through experience as you said, because you know, unintentional intention. I’ve been coaching for nearly five years. I’ve learnt a lot and grown a lot the way I coach, the way I do things and my athletes have increased and improved.

Tim Ford: I have athletes that have qualified for world championships. I have athletes who have smashed PBs I never thought possible. I had a guy who did an Ironman PB of over two hours at Port Mac this year. I couldn’t believe it. It’s stuff like that that has made me go, yay, you know what? You do learn. And I think as a coach as well, you need to, I do not believe I have all the answers, I don’t think there’s a coach out there who does, I think there are some very incredible coaches out there who know a lot of stuff. But if you ever try to convince yourself you know everything, I think that’s pretty dangerous. And I think that’s something we try to do a lot with MX is, when I was asked to run the team by Chris, I said, “We need to get back like, what is this to you, Chris?” And he said as an athlete, he relied on lots of people, he never had all the answers, he had a big team around him. And that’s what we’ve been trying to do with MX.

Tim Ford: I mean, we have somebody like yourself, Brenton, who’s our swim guru, but we’ve realized that there is a lot of information out there so let’s try to bring people together to work together to find information that people, or make it easier for people to find that information they need. So collaboration I think is one of the most underrated things in our sport, because triathlon is quite solo. A lot of people do it in isolation, but the more you can learn from other people and the more you can admit, I don’t know this, I need to find somebody who does, you’re going to improve so much faster and become a better person or an athlete, I should say, a whole person as a result of it.

Brenton Ford: Yeah. And the way I’ve started to, or the way I try and approach coaching, and there’s days where I feel that I still don’t know a lot about swimming. And the way I try and approach it though is just, alright, teach what I know and obviously still try and learn and grow and become a better coach. But teach what I know, trust that that works and the people that are out there who want to get better and can relate to what I’m talking about, they’re going to take that on board and it’s going to work for them. And with some people it may not work. Some people might gravitate to a different style of coaching or a different way that someone will phrase things or be coaching, but just trust that what you do is going to work for people out there and they’re the ones that are going to move towards you.

Brenton Ford: And I had a very similar thing with just sort of the level of athletes that I was coaching where I thought, okay, yeah, I’m happy to work with adults who are maybe newer to the sport and same thing, like beginner, intermediate level triathletes, but beyond that, pro triathletes, anyone at a national, international level of swimming, I thought, no, there’s no way that I’m at that level to work with them. But over time that starts to build up and several professional triathletes who send videos in, or do analysis with on a regular basis and just recently contacted by an Olympian who raced in the Rio Games. And same thing when he contacted me, I’m like, Jesus Christ. Like, all right, I better up my game here.

Brenton Ford: But it’s that where I was like… And when I started to work with him, I’m going deep into research and looking further into the things that I feel like I know, but I want to make sure that I’m teaching the right things, and then I’m going to be giving the right advice. And it’s that challenge and that pressure, like that pressure of wanting to make sure that you run a tight ship and do a good job for Maca, it’s that sort of pressure that I think makes you grow and makes you develop, and get better at what you do.

Tim Ford: Oh, and you know, this role that I now have has forced me to step out of my comfort zone constantly. Like I’m dealing with companies, I remember the first time I had to, we were discussing a partnership with Blueseventy, and I was on the phone with John, the CEO of Blueseventy. I’m like, what is, what am I? Here I am sitting in my living room in my pajamas on a phone call with the CEO of one of the premier triathlon companies in the world. And yeah exactly, I think by doing things that you’d probably not necessarily come to with at first, you’re going to grow as well, you’re going to learn. I’ve learned so many new skills through my role, doing things that I probably never would have had exposure to. That just means, I think you can only get better as a person because of that.

Tim Ford: I don’t think doing things you’re not comfortable with is going to make you worse off. I don’t think anybody’s going to go and have these things that push them out of their comfort zone and go, well, that’s maybe worse. I really regret doing that stuff and I’m never ever, ever going to do anything like that ever again. That’s probably not the norm. I think most people step out of their comfort zone and go, wow, okay, I did this. What else can I do? And I think that’s, especially when you look at something like what I went through, the weight loss. I say this all the time to people. It’s amazing how losing, I’ve lost over 50, I don’t even know. I never weighed myself at the start, but losing over 50 kilos was bloody hard. It was not just, “Ah, just look, the weight’s fallen off, imagine this.”

Tim Ford: When I look at things now that are hard, it’s a very powerful tool for me to be able to go, well I did that. That was hard. How hard can this be? And again, that’s not me saying everything’s easy, but it does give things context for me. And the understanding that hard work and commitment often leads to good things. And I think that’s probably the thing I’m really grateful for and I think I try to take as a coach, I try to instill this in my athletes, but you know, in my work, if I work hard and do the things that I think need to be done right, it should hopefully pay off. And I think I’m seeing that and that’s a lesson that I learnt by, as I said, stepping out of my comfort zone.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, yeah. And I think working with so many different people too, like we work with, and you work with so many people through MX and your coaching, and we do the same through the clinics, and the camps that we run is that, you just get to realize that people are people, and it doesn’t matter if their goal is to do their first sprint distance triathlon, or their goal is to compete at Kona, everything is on a level playing field. Like no one is better than someone else, we’re all just people. And to look at someone where they currently are and to think that’s then, that’s the end result, and see them as more or less very better than someone else, that’s not how things roll. And I think for me, coaching, when we work with all these different levels of athletes, some people are at the start of their journey, some people are closer towards that finish line for themselves.

Brenton Ford: And one thing I really get annoyed about, I think in the swimming coaching community is, there’s a big tendency for swim coaches to look at, I think triathletes and even just sort of adults swimmers and go, they’re triathletes, and they can’t swim or that sort of approach. it’s like, well, hang on a minute. They’re swimming, swimming. If someone loves the water, and they’re training, and they want to get fit up, who cares what sport they’re doing? They’re coming to the pool, they’re coming to training, and they want to get better. And it doesn’t matter if it’s going to be a slightly, yeah, it might be a slightly choppier, slightly messier stroke for them to do well in open water triathlon. It’s that sort of a mindset in the swim coaching world that pisses me off a bit.

Brenton Ford: And to be fair, I probably had that at the start, 10 years ago or so. I thought, because I came from that pure swimming background, but everyone’s, there’s no point trying to judge because if you step into their world, if you go from something to triathlon and someone’s saying that about your bike, which someone could easily say that about my biking, then I’d feel like, Oh, hang on a minute here, I’m just wanting to get better. So leaving the judgment aside is something that I’ve come to learn over the last couple of years working with so many different people.

Tim Ford: And I think that’s something that I’ve, again, with triathlon. Like I remember that first race that I did rocking up and I was wearing, I didn’t have all the right gear. I had a $150 little road bike I bought on eBay that was too small for me. And I remember seeing these, I don’t even think I knew what a time trial bike was. I didn’t know what a disc wheel was, I didn’t know any. And I remember looking at these bikes and this era of helmets and everything and being like, holy shit, like what is this? And I remember calling them time machines, I thought these things look like time machines. They look like out of the back to the future that if you’d go fast enough, you’re going to travel through time.

Tim Ford: And I therefore, I really made a point now, especially with the guys that I start, like the beginner guys of like, you’re going to feel this way, it’s okay. But I promise you, unless you’re a prick, nobody’s judging you as a beginner. I look back to that first race that I did and it was a fallout run course. And on the very first lap, the sag, the last guys come up and said, “Is this your last lap?” And I said, “Mate, buckle in mate, this is my first lap. Like, we’re going to be here all day.” But not a single person, not a single person on that entire course ever laughed at me, ever criticized me, made fun of me, nothing. They were all cheering for me. I had all this support, all these people encouraging me to keep going, keep going.

Tim Ford: And I think that’s something that’s really unique about triathlon as a sport is, I mean, look, they’re pricks in all sports. I’ve come across plenty of people that I don’t particularly care for in triathlon, but the majority of people in our sport are inclusive and encouraging and see that you’re we’re all running our own race. And I think there’s a documentary on Netflix, It’s by James Lawrence. He did the 50 Ironman in 50 States in 50 days thing. And one of the things I really liked him saying, he’s talking about his mom who runs five kilometers a day and he goes like, hard is relative for every person. Like for him doing 50 Ironmans in 50 days in 50 States is hard. But for somebody else like his mum, running five kilometers is hard and there’s no, I really believe this, we didn’t get to criticize or judge what another person perceives as hard.

Tim Ford: You might have a swimmer who’s, they’re finally broken a minute for 100 meters, they might be over the moon, but they might not be as excited about the person in the next line who’s broken two minutes for the 100 meters. Like it’s relative I think. And that’s what I think is really good about this stuff, is that it is a sport where you are mostly, again, the vast majority of us are just out there to do our best. There are some people who are obviously gone for Kona slots, going for taper slots or whatever, but the majority of people think, yeah, just out there to test themselves and see what they’re capable of. And most people get that and most people are really encouraging and supportive with that.

Brenton Ford: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I find that, especially be the case in triathlon and open water swimming, and even like master swimming where I spent eight or nine years coaching swimmers there. So it’s good just to be a part of a club or a community and have that group of friends or have that group of peers that wants you to do well. And I think friendships formed through sport, and I think back to some of my best friends have come through swimming. It’s those friendships formed through sport, and you suffer together training, and you race together, and you share those stories, I really like that kind of community feel about the things that we do. And I think it obviously attracts a lot of like-minded people and that’s why I think you and I can have a chat without really much of an agenda or any sort of set questions for an hour where it’s just good to share our experiences, and the things that we’ve learned over the last couple of years.

Brenton Ford: So we might have to wrap it up here, but what have you got coming up in terms of your racing, your sport and what’s happening with MX over the next couple of months?

Tim Ford: Yeah. So I’m about to jump on a plane and head over to Kona, next week actually. I’m going over one of my friends, a couple of my friends are qualified, and I’ve always wanted to go, so I’ll be in Kona for two weeks. I’m going to be that dickhead running down Ali’i Drive doing efforts when everyone else is going to think I’m racing or something. Say nah mate, I’m not racing, I’m just showing off. And then I’m heading to America. I’m racing North Carolina 70.3, which I’m really looking forward to. I’ve got my big race for the year is the Bahrain 70.3. I’m going over with the whole group with the group of the MX guys. And then MX, we’re about to launch, we did the race team, the inaugural MX Endurance race team for 2019. We’re about to open up applications for the 2020 race team at the start of October, basically ambassadors for MX Endurance, which is really exciting.

Tim Ford: And then we’ve got camp coming up in March, in Phuket. We’re doing a, I know you do your hell week over there, we’re doing I guess the triathlon version, we’re calling it the Super Camp. Seven days of properly high volume, quality triathlon training from the 7th to the 15th of March, that I’m really, really excited about. I mean, I’m sure you know this, but you can’t be training at Phuket, especially if you’re in Australia, New Zealand or in the Asia area. It’s just so cheap to go there and the quality is so high. And Phuket is such an incredible, friendly, amazing, safe part of the world that I love training there. I’m really, really excited to take a whole crew of the MX guys. I think we’ve got about 10 people signed up so far. We’re hoping to get about 20. So it’s going to be amazing.

Tim Ford: So yeah, plenty of stuff happening. I’m chipping away at that 04:05:00. I’m hoping to maybe get under 04:10:00 by the end of this year, that’d be pretty good. And then, yeah, who knows, mate, 2020 will be, I actually haven’t got much planned for that year yet, so we’ll see where we go [crosstalk 00:40:59].

Brenton Ford: It seems like you got a busy couple of months coming up anyway, so don’t plan too far ahead with all you’ve got happening. Mate, I appreciate you being on the podcast and it’s always good to chat and no doubt we’ll catch up again sometime next year and have you on the podcast again.

Tim Ford: No, thank you so much for having me. And again, you were on our podcast a couple of weeks ago as well. So people want to hear a bit about you, they can always check out the MX Endurance Podcast and hear your lovely voice, where we do this. We’re a bit more technical on that one I think, you’ve got a bit more expertise maybe than myself. So thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Welcome to episode number 137 of the Effort the Swim podcast. This episode is titled Rewriting Your Future. And this podcast, the podcast in general, is all about helping you become a better swimmer and lead a better life. And I think today’s episode really captures all of that. So my guest is Tim Ford, who is someone I’ve known for the last few years. And a number of years ago, Tim started his triathlon journey. And over that time, he’s lost more than 50 kilos. He completely changed his life in respect to his health, his fitness and his work. And I think it’s a really good story to share and how a simple idea can spark a complete life change in someone. And with Tim, he was working a typical job and he was over 120 kilos. And a friend of his actually invited him to sign up for a triathlon. And it was that small thing that completely revolutionized Tim’s life over the last couple of years. And now Tim is CEO of MX Endurance, which is Chris McCormack’s triathlon group.

He hosts a podcast, the MX Endurance podcast and the Think Fit podcast. He is now coaching a number of athletes in triathlon and he’s a very good age group triathlete. So on today’s episode, we look at what are some of those things that Tim has changed to turn around his life and become a completely different person. And we also share some of the things that we feel can help other people become better athletes, whether that’s triathlon or whether it’s swimming. And focusing in on the things that you can control and that you can change and why it pays really to have a long term approach to this stuff. And it’s not about looking at what you can do in three months time, not even three years time. Sometimes you need to be looking further ahead than that. So let’s get right into the podcast. This is Tim Ford from MX Endurance. And we’ll talk about it here, but we are not related despite having the same surname.

Welcome to the Effortless Swimming podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. I’d like to welcome Tim Ford to the podcast. So Tim, everyone thinks that we are related, that we’re brothers. Maybe cousins, I’m not sure. Maybe we are, but I haven’t found that to be the case just yet. I think we could easily be mistaken for brothers. So first of all, welcome to the podcast. And maybe we can be quasi brothers or cousins. Thank you so much. I think it’s the good looks, mate. That’s got to be it. Bless with such good looks. It’s hard for people to mistake the two. I mean, it’s an easy mistake to make. So thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to come onto your show and have a bit of a chat. I really enjoy doing this stuff. So yeah, thank you so much. It’s my pleasure and we’ve sort of known each other for a couple of years

and sort of crossed paths a bit obviously through triathlon. And one of the things I want to sort of focus in on this podcast today is how much of a change you’ve gone through personally in sport and I guess just general sort of lifestyle over the last sort of five to 10 years. And some of the people who are listening to this may sort of know your story from sort of where you came from to where you are now. But I think it’d be really good to just sort of cover what your life was like sort of five to 10 years ago and what you’re currently doing now. So in terms of what did life look like about 10 years ago? What was that for you? Yeah, I think 10 years ago is what are we talking 2009? I was working full-time in digital marketing and hospitality and I was neglecting my diet and I was not exercising. I was drinking more nights a week than I wasn’t. And I guess I just didn’t really even think about health as something

you even worried about. I was like, I’m young, it’ll be okay to be okay. And I also think when you probably do neglect your health it’s very easy to push those sort of things out of your mind so you don’t ever really dwell on them. And I was getting bigger and bigger and bigger and I used to always say to myself, as long as I’m under 100 kilos, it’s okay. As long as I’m under 110 kilos, it’s okay. As long as I’m under 120 kilos, it’s okay. And then once I sort of got over that 120 kilo mark on the scale I stopped weighing myself because I guess it was very sort of difficult to turn a blind eye to that number when rationally, it shouldn’t be that high probably. But I just didn’t really worry too much about it, kept going on my way. I was really lucky to have this English guy. His name was Rob Woolley. He came and worked with me at the same hotel that I was working at. And I remember he was skinny as a rake and he was always getting up crazy early to go swim

and run and bike and all this stuff. And he told me he was doing this thing called a half Ironman. I was like, oh, what’s that? He goes, well, you swim 2 kilometers or 1.9 kilometers. You ride 90 kilometers and you run a half marathon. And I laughed at him. I literally was like, why the hell would you want to do that? But that sounds horrific. And yeah, so off he went and we sort of just, we actually ended up living next door to each other. So we started to hang out a bit and I remember, yeah, probably a couple of months later, the beginning of 2010, it was my birthday and he said, I want to sign you up for a triathlon for your birthday. And I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, why not? I couldn’t do that. You never actually thinking about the implications of what work I would need to do to get there. And yeah, I said, yeah, let’s do it. So he signed me up for the Byron Bay Triathlon, which is on the North Coast of New South Wales.

And I did it. And I probably put weight on in preparing for that race. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I just went, oh, I’ll just swim a bit. I’ll just run a bit. I’ll just ride a bit. And it was a disaster. It was an absolute, it was horrific. Took me four hours and five minutes to complete that race, which these days takes me about two hours to finish. I was absolutely dead last, I think. You just name it. A day before the race went high to a wetsuit because you told you needed a wetsuit and I went and got a big, heavy surf wetsuit. But of course, it didn’t fit me properly because I was so overweight and I had to take it off about 400 meters and I swim. I remember going up to one of the spotters on their boards and saying, do you mind if I take this wetsuit off, can you take it into the surf club for me and I’ll pick it up after the race? But just, you know, I think after the race, I realized I had a flat tire.

I don’t know how long I had that for. And then it’s just, yeah, I think it’s funny to look back at that, what was actually a comedy of errors. But obviously worth it because, yeah, something, I guess, something flipped a switch, flipped in my head at that race or something, I guess, I think one of the things I always say to people is I’m the sort of person that if I am going to do something, I do try to do it properly. And I definitely walked away from that race feeling like I didn’t do it properly. So I wanted to do better. And that sort of kick started things. And did you, how long after that race did you race again or start training? Was there a gap in between or did you just sort of look at and go, okay, I think I can do better than that and you just got straight back into it or was there a point in time where you went, like that was a good birthday present, but I’m sort of done there. I think I remember that I really enjoyed the bike leg

but I think one of the things, when you’re big, exercise hurts a lot. I mean, it hurts now, but it’s just a different sort of pain, I think. And I remember thinking the bike was actually okay. So I’d gone away and I bought myself a fancy carbon fiber bike, pretty much straight after actually. I remember I was pretty motivated. Most people who have ever done sort of any race will know that there’s nothing quite as motivated as finishing a race and going, I want to do another one. So I started training, again, I guess a bit more serious, probably a month or two later. Nothing too specific. I did a lot of bike riding, by those standards, a lot of bike riding with my mate Rob. And it wasn’t until probably the start or the end of that year, 2010, 2011, where I picked a race that I wanted to do in July and that’s when I started to, I guess, really focus on the, I actually want to do better at this event. I set a challenge for my wife and two of her friends

that they were going to do a relay, and I had to go faster than their relay team did. So that was, the race was in July and I think I went two hours 45 at my second triathlon, which I could, the main thing for me I remember that day was I just wanted to be able to run the 10 kilometers. I was like, if I can run the 10 kilometers and walk in probably 9.5, like I think I did at that first one, I’ll be happy. And I did. I managed to run the whole 10K. So I was over the moon and then, I think a year later I did that race again and went two hours 24, and then not long after that did my first 70.3. So that was sort of my progression into the sport was, yeah, more like, and it’s always been, it’s about beating myself, always trying to improve on my performances rather than, beating other people or anything like that. I think triathlon is a big one for that, isn’t it? Because there’s so many different ways that you can improve and get faster,

so many different things you can change and test and it’s a real race against yourself. And I remember seeing one of your posts, pretty recently I think from the sunny coast try where you were, you said you were disappointed with your time, you thought you could have gone a bit faster with it, but looking back over the last few years, like, let’s say a couple years ago, four or five years ago, you look at the time that you did, you think, well, that is amazing and it’s very easy to forget where you’ve come from and just sort of look at where you are now, but it’s one of the harder things to do, I think, is just to sort of reflect and look back at how much you have improved. You’re a very good age group triathlete and very competitive and really in that sort of upper part of the field and racing a lot. So what sort of motivates you now that it’s, is it the similar things? Is it trying to just beat your own times, or is there other

things that are motivating you now compared to a couple years ago? I think the big one for me, and I didn’t ever really set out with this goal, it just sort of, I stumbled across it at some point, I thought that’d be cool, was I complete a 70.3 in 4 hours 5 minutes because that was the same amount of time it took me to do that first Olympic distance race and that really motivates me, that’s something that I really draw on a lot when I’m maybe struggling or not that motivated or whatever it is, I remind myself of that goal and again, I’m very happy to admit that there’s very good chance I probably won’t achieve that goal but working towards it is something that I find incredibly motivating and I think the big one for me and again, I never really set out for this to be the case, but I’ve had a lot of people who have said that they’ve found what I did inspire and therefore they thought, you know, a lot of people who’ve lost weight because they’ve seen what I could do

and thought, yeah, I can do that too and that’s something that I also really am motivated by or I think whenever I race and I’m doing it it’s hard, I get this idea that there could be some person who’s thinking about doing their first triathlon if they see it’s terrible, it might turn them off so that always sort of makes me want to go and I always try to do my best because I want people who are thinking, you know, this is impossible this is hard or this is not something I can even do to actually be able, yeah, okay, if Tim can do it I can because I really mean this I get asked all the time what’s the secret to weight loss I am the most ordinary stock standard guy out there there’s absolutely nothing exceptional about me and I did it and I thought I couldn’t do it so if I can there’s absolutely no reason why anybody else who’s out there struggling with their weight or, you know, their health or whatever, couldn’t do it as well

because it’s there’s nothing extraordinary about me whatsoever and I think so many things the answer to so many things is often a lot simpler than what we than what we imagine them to be as well like with you know, how do you get better at assuming how to get better at triathlon well eat well do it consistently, do it regularly maybe get a coach and just sort of follow that over the course of months and over the course of years and look at yourself three, four, five years later and there’s a very good chance that you’re going to make that improvement and if you follow that and you can be consistent with it, it can make a big difference and one of the things I really enjoy about the coaching swimming is when people come into swimming, they might come into a clinic they’re doing triathlons and the swim is their least favourite leg a lot of people say they really don’t enjoy it but when they turn that around and they do start to enjoy it because

they might have a few different things they can now focus on they’re seeing these little improvements happen over time then they start to get addicted to that and they really start to enjoy it and they change their whole mindset and perspective around just going to the pool or swimming in the ocean or approaching their races and I think it’s the same with competing in triathlons where as you said when you are when you’re unhealthy that pain is a different kind of pain it’s just like it’s a really sucky sort of pain but as you get fitter and better at it it’s for me at least I really enjoy that sort of struggle and that pain but if I’ve had a few weeks out of the water yeah it’s not a fun sort of pain I think what you just said though I could give a real tangible example of that and that’s a few years ago I really wasn’t enjoying my swimming and this is before I’d ever done one of your clinics or anything but you brought out those

the art of triathlon swimming videos and I remember I bought the series and I watched them and it was Clayton Patel doing all the you know the Superfish Clayton Patel and I think it was Annabelle Luxford maybe it was in the video it was swimming and I remember I went to the pool and a few of those things that I did in the videos I was suddenly really motivated about swimming again because it gave me something other than constantly thinking I hate this, this is boring, this is no good. So suddenly they’ve been actually focusing on parts of my swimming and I remember I got really motivated and you’re really right about the racing thing like I say to people I love the pain the next day like that feeling of you know doms in my muscles the day after a race it’s almost like a badge of honour because it tells me that I’ve actually really pushed myself to my to my limit and like I said you’re right I had a race a few weeks ago that I wasn’t

I wasn’t very satisfied with my results I was definitely happy with my effort but I could I feel like I could have been better but I was not that sore the next day and I was a bit like yeah that’s I’m a bit disappointed about that because it shows that I didn’t give everything physically that I could have and yeah it is there’s something very rewarding or satisfying about that pain these days whereas when you’re bigger or you’re unfit it’s not play it’s just like oh this is the worst oh this is so bad why am I doing this to myself like that it’s a different conversation yeah and I think as well the when you get to that that point where you miss if you don’t exercise in the day and you’re really annoyed with yourself she’s like I really need to I really need to get some physical exertion happening here I feel like I really need to sort of let go of this this built up energy that I’ve got that’s a very different approach than going

oh I have to go and exercise after going run and it’s that it’s that sort of switch that that makes that really makes the difference and I’ve sort of just had that over the last couple of sort of weeks and couple of months where over winter it happens every time I tend to sort of not train as much and you know a bit soft with the cold and and all of that but sort of coming out of winter leading into to spring and summer like it’s I just get really excited about the upcoming season of swims and I’m going to start to do some off-road tries and I’m just really excited about it and so now I’m getting to that point where I really want to just every day I just want to try and at least you know run or swim whatever it might be and I’m looking forward to it and if I don’t get something done that day I I’m annoyed with myself and and that’s how that consistency starting to build up now that’s what I say to people as well

like I think I’ve got to a point these days where it’s not even a case of if I can do my work at it’s like I’m going to do it it’s just part of my routine now like I’ve made it it’s it’s not even a case of prior time I think consistency is such a big part of that I’ve done this now for so long where that’s just how I operate my days I do my work when I need to I do my training when I need to and I just fit everything in so you know yeah there’s some days where I don’t do something where maybe you know something comes up and my wife just get out of the house and go for a run or something where you’re killing me you’re an nightmare like just do some exercise you’re going high and and yeah like and even relationship with with exercises changed a lot for me like I used to always think of it as this this thing you have to do when now like for example running for me I had a a long long time I hated running and then it’s I don’t know

something something switched in my head and I think my long run is probably my favorite session now because it’s it’s like almost it’s it’s my most selfish time for me I never take a phone with me I always like take a listen to an audio book or a podcast or something that I want to listen to and it’s just my time and I really really come to really enjoy that that part of my week and it is it when I think when you start to think about your activities in that way rather than like I’ve got to check this off the list or whatever it does just change your whole approach to it and make it a lot more enjoyable yeah I can relate to that couple years ago when I built up and did Taupo Ironman those long runs where I was running down each road here in Melbourne and you know the longer runs sort of you know 15 up to sort of 25 and I think maybe 30 Ks for longest one it was just it was so enjoyable because it’s like you just sit at the

steady pace and you just sort of listening to your footsteps and your heartbeat and you just get into this really nice rhythm and routine where you’re not really thinking about much else you’re just in the zone and was doing this over leading into the Rotnest channel swim training with a friend down at Half Moon Bay and we were doing our longer swims on a Wednesday morning and pretty much every time except for once or twice we got these great conditions where there’s no wind the water was like a lake and it’s just peaceful that’s the sun starting to come up as we’re swimming and we’re swimming for two three three and a half hours and it’s just we were kind of just going stroke for stroke next to each other and it was it’s just beautiful like I couldn’t think of anything else I’d rather be doing than that at home and it’s that that really sort of clears the mind and then after that exercise in the morning I’m just so I’m thinking so

clearly with what I need to do work wise and coaching and everything and just can set you up very well for the for the day and I can relate to yeah my wife she can tell if I have an exercise and she’s the same thing she’s get out of the house just go do something she’ll be kicking me out the door just because I’m a better person once I’ve exercised I think the same I reckon you’re right though there’s something about especially swimming I do a lot of my open water swimming at Bondi Beach in Sydney and we are very lucky in Sydney that even in winter you can still swim in the you know it’s a little bit cold when you get in but there’s been so many mornings when I’ve gotten up and I don’t live very close to the beach here so that’s a good 40 minute drive for me to get there but as soon as I’m like done I go like man this is such a good way to start the day like there really is something about especially apart from the insane appetite that I

always seem to get after a swim yeah there’s something very nice about just starting the day you know the sun comes up you got that sunrise and you’re in the water and it’s you know beautiful and flat and calm and yeah it’s amazing yeah absolutely and you’ve and you’ve sort of changed work wise what you’re doing now so there you’ve basically you’ve gone full in with triathlon as the CEO of MX insurance you run or you host two podcasts and everything is around sport and triathlon so what’s that change been like for you in terms of I guess happiness around the work that you’re doing and the purpose around the work that you’re doing what’s that been like for you over the last couple of years as you’ve sort of moved into it it’s I stopped to pinch myself a lot of the time I still can’t really believe that this is what I do now it’s it’s so funny I was finishing I went away and studied law so I’ve just a graduate of law degree

18 months ago and it was around that same time where Maca asked if I wanted to run the team for him and I was like are you sure like me and it’s it’s it’s been incredible I think there’s been some challenges that I don’t think a lot of people probably you know a lot of people think I’d love to do this is what I’m passionate about it’s my hobby I think that the biggest thing that I’ve been shocked by is I’ve had to almost set a lot of very strict boundaries because it’s very easy when your hobby becomes your job to work a lot more without realizing it and that’s been something for me that I struggled with I struggled with for quite a while my wife again my wife would be like you you’re on your laptop again what are you doing what are you doing what are you doing but it’s it’s incredible being able to I guess play such a part in other people’s journeys through the sport which is something I’m really grateful and like

you said that the coaching thing so I coach I’ve got a I’ve got a fairly substantial number of athletes at the moment that I I never imagined I’d be a coach ever I never it’s almost a bit of a triathlon cliche I think these days you become an age group athlete you get race for you almost become a coach I never thought I’d travel that path for me it was you know I do this sport to improve myself and it wasn’t until I had some athletes approach me and ask if I’d coach and I was like okay like I’m happy to give it a go and I found like I do with the MX thing like the satisfaction I get out of other people’s success is is I think I almost get more excited when people I coach or work with do well than when I do myself it’s it’s I can’t even explain that feeling and it’s something that I’m sure other people who coach out there like you know get that you see as a coach or again with MX the work people put in that I think

when you’re doing it yourself you’re not always aware of I think it’s very it’s very easy to get caught up in what you’re doing and just focus on that angle as a coach I see the whole picture a lot of the time and you see that person you see that struck you see them dealing with things you know they might have a family problem that comes up so they miss a week of training or they get sick or they get a little bit injured or whatever it is and then you see them get to that race and exceed their expectations or meet their expectations or whatever and it just it I love it I absolutely love it so much and like I said I am I am under no illusions of how lucky I am to have the career I now have I am you know there’s not many people who have a sporting hero who asks them to come and run their company for them and like I still sit there in meetings with with MACA and I have to pinch myself sometimes like holy shit this is this is real like this isn’t this isn’t a dream

at the same time I find it I think it’s probably you know I put a lot of pressure myself for that as well because I am working for somebody that I’ve idolized I don’t want to let him down a lot of the time as well so I think that’s probably why I do work as hard as I do about it but yeah it is it is crazy to think that 10 years ago I was working in marketing and hospitality and here I am my entire life now basically is about endurance sports coaching and triathlon and it’s it’s uh yeah it’s surreal and I am aware of how lucky I am and I’m very grateful for that as well I think and it’s great to see because people it’s very easy to get stuck doing what you’re doing and thinking that there’s no other options out there and looking 10 years ago I’m sure you would have never thought that this is something that you’d be doing and coaching people in triathlon and obviously running running MX endurance as well and I remember when I first started

effortless swimming I thought what right do I have to be coaching or teaching other people like who am I to do that but and yeah maybe in the very early days maybe that was true like I had no experience as a very little experience as a coach I’d just been an athlete but over the last 10 plus years I feel like we get a pretty good sense of how we can help people and what makes a difference with their swimming and you just get that experience and you build that confidence and you work with more athletes and you’re able to sort of help more people and find out what works with them and you continue to build on that success and that confidence and there’s no reason why where you’re at today has to be where you’re going to be for the next 5, 10, 20 years. It’s exactly right and even these that I find it quite funny like especially my grandparents always but what about your law degree? And I said to my Nan, I said this to her

my law degree is not going anywhere and I’d rather try and potentially fail at something that I really care about rather than never try it all and just go into something that I don’t want to do but am not as interested about and I took a chance and that’s the thing, law is a pretty good backup to have, marketing is a pretty good I’m pretty sure that should all this fail as I’m constantly worried that it will I’ll have things to back myself up with and I think the coaching thing is really really interesting to do because I think when I started, you’re right, I was like I have no right to be telling people what to do like I barely know myself a lot of the time and I think for myself I was very quick to put this label, I coach beginner athletes I’m not a real coach I just worry about people who are trying to lose weight I’m just helping them and it wasn’t until I started to have athletes go better and better and I think I had a guy coached last year

and he went 4 hours 20 on day build is 70.3 and I’m not claiming responsibility for that, he’s an incredible athlete but it made me go this isn’t a beginner athlete that’s pretty impressive for a first and I’ve coached him for nearly 2 years maybe I need to stop considering myself purely beginner coach now and I think with most things what you put out is what you get back and without even realizing I picked up a stable of quite good athletes I still think I gravitate a lot towards those beginner guys who want to lose weight and that’s my niche, my comfort zone I think I have a lot of experience that I can give them but yeah, I have definitely through experience as you said because unintentional I’ve been coaching for nearly 5 years I’ve learned a lot and grown a lot the way I coached, the way I do things and yeah, my athletes have increased I’ve improved a lot, I’ve athletes that have qualified for war championships I’ve athletes who have

smashed PB’s than ever thought possible I had a guy who did an Ironman PB of over 2 hours at Port Mac this year I couldn’t believe it, it’s stuff like that that has made me go yeah, you know what you do learn and I think as a coach as well I do not believe I have all the answers I don’t think there’s a coach out there who does I think there are some very incredible coaches out there who know a lot of stuff who try to convince yourself you know everything, I think that’s pretty dangerous and I think that’s something we try to do a lot with MX is when I was asked to run the team by Chris, I said we need to go back, what is this to you Chris and he said as an athlete he relied on lots of people he never had all the answers, he had a big team around him and that’s what we’ve been trying to do with MX we have somebody like yourself, Brenton who’s our swim guru there is a lot of information out there so let’s try to bring people together

to work together to find the information that people or make it easier for people to find that information they need so collaboration I think is one of the most underrated things in our sport because triathlon is quite, you know it’s quite solo a lot of people do it in isolation but the more you can learn from other people and the more you can admit I don’t know this I need to find somebody who does you’re going to improve so much faster and become a better person or an athlete as a result of it and the way I’ve started to or the way I try and approach coaching and there’s days where I feel like that I still don’t know a lot about swimming and the way I try and approach it though is just teach what you teach what I know and obviously and still try and learn and grow and become a better coach but teach what I know, trust that works and the people that want to get better and can relate to what I’m talking about they’re going to take that on board and it’s going

to work for them and with some people may not work, some people might gravitate to a different style of coaching or a different way that someone will phrase things or be coaching but just trust that what you do is going to work for people out there and they’re the ones that are going to move towards you and I’d very similar thing with just sort of the level of athletes that I was coaching where I thought I’m happy to work with adults who are maybe newer to the sport and the same thing like beginner, intermediate level triathletes but beyond that pro triathletes anyone at a national, international level of swimming I thought no there’s no way at that level to work with them but just that over time that starts to build up I’ve got several professional triathletes who send videos in and do analysis with on a regular basis and just recently contacted by an Olympian who raced in the Rio games and same thing when he contacted me I’m like

Jesus Christ I better up my game here but it’s that way and when I started to work with him I’m going deep into research and looking further into the things that I feel like I know but I want to make sure that I’m teaching the right things and that I’m going to be giving the right advice and it’s that sort of challenge and that pressure I like that pressure of wanting to make sure that you run a tight ship and do a good job for Maca it’s that sort of pressure that I think makes you makes you grow and makes you develop and get better at what you do Oh and you know this role that I now have has forced me to step out of my comfort zone constantly like I’m dealing with companies I remember the first time I had to discuss in a partnership with Blue70 and I was on the phone with John the CEO of Blue70 and I’m like what is this is here I’m sitting in my living room in my pyjamas on a phone call with the CEO of one of the premier

triathlon companies in the world and you’re exactly I think by doing things that you’re probably not necessarily comfortable with at first you’re going to grow as well you’re going to learn I’ve learned so many new skills through my role doing things that I probably never would have had exposure to that just means I think you can only get better as a person because of that I don’t think doing things you’re not comfortable with is going to make you worse off I don’t you know I don’t think anybody’s going to go and have these things that push them out of their comfort zone and go well that’s maybe worse I really regret doing that stuff and I’m never ever ever going to do anything like that ever again like I don’t think that’s that’s probably not the the norm I think most people step out of their comfort zone and go wow okay I did this what else can I do and I think that’s especially when you look at something like

like what I went through the weight loss I say this all the time to people like it’s amazing how like losing what I’ve lost over 50 I don’t even know I never weighed myself at the start but like losing over 50 kilos was bloody hard it was not just to start just look at the weights falling off imagine this when I look at things now that are hard it’s very it’s a very powerful tool for me to be able to go well I did that that was hard how hard can this be like again that’s not me saying everything’s easy but it does give things context for me and the understanding that hard work and commitment often leads to good things and that’s I think that’s probably the thing I’m really grateful for and I think I try to take as a coach I try to instill this in my athletes but you know in my work if I work hard and do the things that I think need to be done right it should hopefully pay off and I think I’m seeing that and that’s a lesson that I learned by as I said

stepping out of my comfort zone yeah yeah and I and I think working with so many different people to like we work with so and you work with so many people through MX and your coaching and we do the same through the clinics and the camps that we run is that you just you get to realize that people are people and it doesn’t matter if their goal is to do their first sprint distance triathlon or their goal is to compete at Kona everyone is on a on a level playing field like no one is better than someone else we’re all just we’re all just people and to look at someone where they currently are and to think that’s that’s them that’s the the end result and and see them as more or less very than someone else it’s just that’s not how things roll and I think is a for me coaching when we we work with all these different levels of athletes have like some people at the start of their journey some people are closer towards that that finish line

for themselves and it’s one thing I really get annoyed about I think in the kind of swimming coaching community is there’s a big there’s a big tendency for for swim coaches to I think triathletes and and even just sort of adult swimmers and go like that you know they swim for their triathletes and they can’t swim or that sort of approach is like well they’re swimming swimming they let if someone loves the water and they’re training and they want to get fit up who cares what sport they’re doing they come into the pool they’re coming to training and they they want to get better and it doesn’t matter if it’s going to be a slightly yeah might be a slightly choppy a slightly messier stroke for them to do well in in open water or triathlon it’s that sort of mindset in the swim coaching world that the pisses me off a bit so and and I and to be fair I probably had that at the start 10 years ago or so I thought you know not because I was I came from

that pure swimming background but it’s yeah everyone’s there’s no point trying to judge because if you step into their world if you go from swimming to triathlon and someone’s saying that about your bike which someone could easily say that about my biking then I’d feel like oh well you hang on a minute here I’m just I’m just wanting to you know to get better so leaving the judgment aside is is something that I’ve come to to learn over the last couple years working with so many different people and I think that’s something that I’ve I’ve again with the triathlon like I remember that first race that I did rocking up and I was wearing like you know I didn’t have all the right gear I had a hundred and fifty little road bike I bought on eBay that was too small for me and I remember seeing these I don’t think I knew what a time trial bike was I didn’t know what a disc wheel was I didn’t know any and I remember looking at these bikes and these aerohomates

and everything and being like holy shit like what what is what is this and I remember calling them time machines I thought these things look like time machines they look like out of back to the future that if you’d you know you go fast and if you’re gonna you know travel through time and I therefore I really make a point now especially with the guys that I start like the beginner guys of like this is you know you’re gonna feel this way it’s it’s okay but I you know I promise you unless you’re a prick nobody’s judging you as a beginner like but I look back to that first race that I did and it was a four lap run course and on the very first lap the the sag you know the last guys come up and said is this your last lap and I said mate buckle in mate this is my first lap like we’re gonna be here all day and but not a single person not a single person on that entire course ever laughed at me ever criticized me made fun of me

nothing they were all cheering for me I had all this support all these people you know encouraging me to keep going keep going and I think that’s something that’s really unique about triathlon as a sport is I mean look they’re pricks in all sport I can you know I’ve come across plenty of people that I don’t particularly care for in triathlon but the majority of people in our sport are inclusive and encouraging and and see that you’re you know we’re all running our own race and we’re you know and and I think there’s a documentary on Netflix it’s by James Lawrence he did the 50 Ironman in 50 states in 50 days thing and one of the things I really liked he him saying he’s talking about his mom who runs five kilometers a day and he goes like hard is relative for every person like for him doing 50 Ironman 50 days in 50 states is hard but for somebody else like his mom running five kilometers is hard and there’s no you know I really

believe this we don’t get to criticize or judge what another person perceives as hard you know you might have a swimmer who’s you know they’re finally broken a minute for a hundred meters they might be over the moon but they might not be as excited about the person in the next line who’s broken two minutes for the hundred meters like it’s it’s relative I think and that’s what I think is really good about this stuff is that it is it is a sport where you are you are mostly like again the vast majority of us are just out there to do our best you know there are some people who are obviously going for Kona slots going for Taupo slots or whatever but the majority of people think yeah just out there to test themselves and see what they’re capable of and most people get that and most people are really encouraging and supportive of that yeah yeah absolutely I find that especially be the case in triathlon and open water swimming

and even like master swimming where I spent eight or nine years coaching coaching swimmers there so it’s it’s good just to be a part of a club or a community and and have that group of friends or have that group of peers that that wants you to do well and I think friendships formed through sport and I think back to some of my best friends have come through swimming it’s those friendships formed through sport and you suffer together in training and you you know you race together and you share those stories I really like that kind of community feel about the things that we do and yeah and I think it obviously attracts a lot of like-minded people and that’s why I think you and I can have a chat without really much of an agenda or any sort of set questions for an hour where it’s just good to sort of share our experiences and the things that we’ve we’ve learned over the last couple of years so we we might have to wrap it up here but

what have you got coming up in terms of your racing your sport and what’s happening with MX over the next couple of months yeah so I’m about to jump on a plane and head over to Kona next week actually I’m going over one of my my friends a couple of my friends are qualified and I’ve always wanted to go so I’ll be in Kona for two weeks I’m going to be that I’m going to be that dickhead running down early he drive doing efforts when everybody else is going to think I’m racing or something I’m not racing I’m just I’m just showing off then I’m then I’m heading to American I’m racing North Carolina 70.3 which I’m really looking forward to I’ve got my big race for the year is the Bahrain 70.3 I’m going over with the whole crew of the MX guys and then yeah MX we’re about to launch we did the race team the inaugural MX endurance race team for 2019 we’re about to open up applications for the 2020 race team at the start of October

so we’re you know basically ambassadors for MX endurance which is which is really exciting and then we’ve got some camp coming up in March in Phuket we’re doing a I know you do your hell week over there we’re doing I guess the triathlon version we call it the super camp seven days of like properly high volume quality triathlon training from the 7th to the 15th of March that I’m really really excited about I mean I’m sure you know this but you can’t beat training Phuket especially if you’re in New Zealand or in the Asia area it’s just so cheap to go there and the quality is so high and you know Phuket is such an incredible friendly amazing safe part of the world that I love training there and I’m really really excited to take a whole crew of the MX guys I think we’ve got about 10 people signed up so far we’re hoping to get about 20 so it’s gonna be amazing so yeah plenty plenty of stuff happening I’m chipping away at that 405

I’m hoping to maybe get under 410 by the end of this year that’d be pretty good and then yeah who knows mate 2020 will be a I actually haven’t got that much planned for that year yet so we’ll see we’ll see how we go it’s just like you’ve got a busy couple of months coming up anyway so don’t plan too far ahead with all you got happening so mate I appreciate you being on the podcast it’s always good to chat and no doubt we’ll catch up again sometime next year and yeah have you on the podcast again now thank you so much for having me and again you were on our podcast a couple of weeks ago as well so if people want to hear a bit about you they can always check out the MX endurance podcast and hear your lovely voice where we do this we’re a bit more technical on that one I think you’ve got a bit more expertise maybe than myself so thank you so much for having me I really appreciate it thank you so much

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My guest today is Nick Jankovskis from METS Performance. METS Performance is a Melbourne based company that help athletes with a whole range of tests that you can use to then use some data to incorporate that into how you’re training, particularly for endurance athletes. Nick and I will be talking about how we easily can get caught up with all this information and how we can use this data effectively in our training.

03:22 Philosophy of METS Performance Consulting
04:45 Working With Athletes
09:52 Common Mistakes Among Athletes
17:30 Stepping Back
22:08 Variable Pace Swimming
27:59 Data and Training
34:40 Macro Perspective
40:21 Don’t Get Too Caught Up with Data
48:04 It’s Good To Have A Back-Up Sports
1:01:14 Making it Simple

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Nick Jankovskis
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https://www.instagram.com/nj_sportscience/

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Email:
nick@mets performance.com

Transcription:

Brenton: Welcome to Episode Number 136. Today’s episode is how to not let the numbers and data rule your swimming. My guest today is Nick [inaudible 00:00:10] from Mets Performance. They’re a Melbourne based company that help athletes with a whole range of tests that you can use to then use some data to incorporate that into how you’re training, particularly for endurance athletes. A lot of that is around V02 Max testing, lactic threshold testing and they’ve got a few other ones as well.

Brenton: In this episode, we look at how you can use some of the numbers and the tests that elite athletes use, but use them in a simple and effective way and not get caught up in them because one of the things that I hate is complexity. That’s why we try and keep things very simple and I like Nick’s approach and Mets Performance approach using these numbers, but then not getting too caught up in them every time that you train and not worrying if you’re five seconds off per hundred or six seconds off per a hundred in one session looking at at a macro scale.

Brenton: Really just how to keep enjoying what you’re doing, having fun, but making sure that you’re using the right scientific approach to your training. Before we get into the episode, I want to let you know about the camps that we’ve got running next year. We’ve just finalized our [Noosa 00:01:09] Camp, which is a brand new camp that we’ll be running. It’s a six-day, five-night camp held in Noosa, which is one of my favorite places in the world. It’s just beautiful and I was there for a couple of weeks with the family and got some of the best sunrises and sunsets and just a really, really special place to swim.

Brenton: We’ve got a six-day camp there where the first couple of days we’ll be doing some open water swimming. We’ll be doing a lot of underwater filming, analysis, coaching. There’ll be a very high coach to swimmer ratio there and we were also tying it in with an event which will be held on the last day. Iron Man is running a swim event there. There’s a one, two and 3.8K option and that’s going to be the final thing that we do at the camp, so everyone will choose their events and then we’ll all go out for lunch afterward.

Brenton: If you enjoy swimming, if you love the beach, if you love open water swimming plus you want to improve your swimming, then this is going to be a really fun camp that I can’t wait for. That’s in May next year. If you’re interested in that, go to the website effortlessswimming.com and click on the camp section and you can find more details about the Noosa camp. We’ve also opened up bookings for our weight camps, which will be held in October next year. They are our Thailand camps that we’ve run for the last five years and for those who have listened for a while, you know that those camps book up 12 months in advance.

Brenton: I’ve just decided to open updates or bookings really early if you are interested in booking so you can book into that now. We’re also running our Hawaii camps next year. Details for those will be finalized very shortly. So if you’re listening to this a few weeks late, then you can probably find details about the Hawaii camp on our website, so head to effortlessswimming.com for more details on those. Let’s get into the episode with Nick [inaudible 00:02:51] from Mets Performance.

Nick Jankovskis: Our philosophy behind things is trying to bring the common, I guess, elite sports science that commonly has not really being available to the everyday athlete to bring that to a more readily available platform and allow guys to go through, do their VO2 max testing, understand what their physiology is doing, understand where their training don’t fit or what their heart rate is like, what intensity they should be holding for different types of sessions, and have a clear recommendation for them of how they should go about their next block of training.

Nick Jankovskis: So I guess that leads into really what we do now with our guys that we coach. So we mostly work with let’s say our top five are swimmers, cyclists, runners, rowers, and triathletes, with triathletes, cyclists, and runners probably the main area of focus that we do specialize in. But we go right through, perform physiological testing on them through VO2 max, lactate analysis understanding what is happening with that blood lactate component, a bit of an aero versus anaerobic contribution to things, break down the data from their testing. So you have a look right through, build out their training zones, and then deliver the training off the back of it if they are one of our coached athletes or provide the recommendations onward to their coach or their already distinct coach.

Nick Jankovskis: So we’re sort of pretty flexible in that space. But we definitely specialize in the science of performance and particularly endurance performances where we do most of our work if not all of our work.

Brenton: Yeah. I think the main one is that 85, 90 percent of endurance athletes are a lot similar to each other than what they probably like to think. There’s a lot of different paths to the same outcome. I mean, Melbourne marathon is a good example that we’re doing with a lot of athletes who are training for that at the moment, and there’s a lot of different ways you can go about the training to lead up to a three-hour marathon or a sub-three marathon for example.

Brenton: But the interesting thing that we found is 85, 90 percent of the athletes that come into see us generally who are training for the same event generally display very, very similar traits in their physiology. And so that’s probably the big thing, just looking at trends in the data is that you can always pick before they’ve done the test what’s going to happen based off what type of training they’ve roughly done and what event they’re training for. So we can get a pretty good understanding of, yeah, they’re probably going to have a reasonable VO2 max. I mean it’s gotten to the point now where we can set someone up on a test and pretty much pinpoint where their threshold is going to hit and where their VO2 max is going to hit with a reasonable understanding of just asking them a few questions before the test just because we say very similar things in physiology across similar types of athletes.

Nick Jankovskis: We do see some interesting trends particularly of triathletes. The big one is we ideally like to test their bike and their run in separate sessions. So we’ll see very similar VO2 max numbers, but we’ll see quite different heart rate ratings, often 7 to 10 beats higher on the run compared to the bike. And then we’ll often see something like ventilation, so how much air they’re getting per minute is generally a little bit higher on the bike compared to the run because their torso is a little bit more stable, a little bit more relaxed, less likelihood of falling off the trade because they’re on the bike as well. So there are things like that we start to see some differences.

Nick Jankovskis: And also we’ve had a few swimmers come through. A little bit tricky to do a swimming test without one of those like sorts of endless pools where we can control the intensity and pretty sort of complex comprehensive setup to properly VO2 max assess swimmers. But we have a few swimmers come through, some of the open water guys and obviously our triathletes as well doing a bit of swimming. I would say some pretty similar things with their heart rate sort of being more aligned with what we see running-wise. So if we’re ever prescribing seamless sessions in the pool to what we would in run, so if we’re looking for a long slow swim, for example, we generally work off pretty similar if you’re trying to stick to maybe a heart rate, again, something difficult to monitor in a swim session.

Nick Jankovskis: But we sort of related pretty closely to that running because we seem to get a reasonable accurate rating. And interestingly enough some of the swimmers have done rowing tests as well with this us which has been interesting. More of that upper body demand is a little bit more specific. So they’re probably some of the key things I’ve probably learned over the last couple of years working in the field or working in industry at METS, is just seeing some of those similarities across sports and across types of athletes competing for the same event, but then being able to take that similarity and use the data from their test to provide that individual difference I think is the key step that a lot of coaches and a lot of athletes sort of misses.

Nick Jankovskis: We know how the pros train, but if you want to train and perform better that might not be the best path for you if that makes sense. So sort of working through what is the best path based on that trait that we’ve got in the athlete and those subtle differences, and it’s the differences in heart rate, subtle differences in lactate ratings as well which is giving us that clear path of where does the athlete need to go. So we may be doing a similar type of session, but we might be tweaking it as a result of the data we get from the test. So that is probably the biggest thing that I’ve sort of noticed over the last little while.

Brenton: There’s a big crossover there from us running a lot of clinics and working with a lot of athletes over the last couple of years where I’ve found it’s when looking at the stroke and analyzing technique it’s come down to just… it’s pattern recognition. So you look at someone swimming and you just work with so many different people that you pretty much straight away you can go right to doing this or doing this or doing this.

Brenton: And then it comes down to giving those individual recommendations based on maybe what the athlete’s beliefs are and their approach to their sport and maybe what type of personality they are, how can you best deliver it that way. And then just those little nuances that are different to each person. And across the board there’s usually the same two or three common mistakes that you see in technique. And then there’s probably some similar things with how they’re training. Is there any common things that you see with how endurance athletes are training that you get them to adjust or correct? Any common mistakes there?

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. 100%. Just sort of before I sort of get into that 100% agree with what you’re saying. It’s pattern recognition. You see the same thing, and it’s just making those tweaks. I guess in terms of the common things that we see and that we do make those tweaks on probably the one big session that… I mean, we’re happy to sort of give this session away because a lot of it comes from just any sort of literature and research type you read on trying to improve things like VO2 max, aerobic power. It’s one of the go tos. But in terms of the session that we often don’t see athletes do and it’s really clear when we see the data in terms of their ability oxygen, their aerobics power, so their abilities, oxygen quickly if you like at the back end of a test when they’re working hard at those high intensities.

Nick Jankovskis: It’s a really simple high intensity session where you pretty much go and flat out 9, 9 and a half, out of 10 intensity workout at 95% of your velocity or your workload at max. And you’re working off a one-to-one work to rest ratio, two minutes on and you get a two minute walking recovery or a two minute very easy recovery, and just working through that, so six, seven, eight times throughout the session. It’s a really simple session. So by intensity it’s lots of rest. We just don’t see a lot of athletes do it. A lot of athletes, particularly in sort of triathlon running and cycling, we generally see a lot of that sort of in and around threshold. So I guess race pace gets thrown around a lot, that term. I’ve never been a big fan of athletes just working off, “Oh, I went out and did 40 minutes of race pace today.” For me from a numbers perspective there’s no metric to that. What is race pace? It’s so broad and vague.

Nick Jankovskis: We say a lot of that going out and going reasonably hard for a period of time and having short recoveries and trying to back it up again, which has a time and place, and that time and place is very specific to racing. But the adaptation from that plateaus really quickly. So we say athletes can get genuinely pretty I guess race fit if you want to call it or primed specific for their race within about six to eight weeks of when their event is. Anytime before that if they get chipping away eventually you’re going to plateau and plateau pretty hard.

Nick Jankovskis: Apart from anything else those types of sessions where we’re working let’s say you’re on for 10 minutes at sort of an 8 out of 10 intensity if we’re using RPA, but working there about that threshold, working pretty hard. You have half the recovery, so five minute recovery, you go again. It’s lactic in, lactic out partially, but then it comes back in again, and we’re just sort of buffering and worrying about tolerating that lactic acid, which a lot of athletes are really good at because when we race that’s what we have to do.

Nick Jankovskis: So if you’ve got a stacked race schedule you’re already pretty good. And triathletes [inaudible 00:09:28] you’re racing every month. And if you’re racing [inaudible 00:09:30] series or you’re racing every three months if you’re writing a sort of 70.3 sort of distance. So there’s always something going on to build that. Whereas we often miss that moving the top end of your engine which is going to give you an extra ability to improve that threshold.

Nick Jankovskis: So I guess an easy way to think about is if you’ve got a V6 engine at the moment you can only fit six cylinders into that engine. If you think about cylinders being where your threshold fits in and the engine being your overall performance ability, if you can only fit six cylinders in that might be the difference for a triathlete of, well, “I can only push that threshold. I can only get up to about four minutes per K.” Or for a swimming example, maybe I can only hold 90 seconds 100s over the course of my 1500 meter swim because the top end of my engine is not much far above it. I’ve got no nowhere to move.

Nick Jankovskis: You can exceed max, but only in very short bouts. I mean, we’re talking swimming teams it’s like if you go flat out for 50 meters, yeah, you can sprint, but you’re not going to sustain that pace forever. So the difference being if we can move that top end by doing some of that really high intensity what we call VO2 interval work is you extend the size of the engine. Now we’ve got the capacity and ability to fit more cylinders in if you like. So you go from a V6 to V8 [inaudible 00:10:48]. Now I’ve got six cylinders to play with. A V8 engine on six cylinders is going to be more powerful that the V6 on six. You’ve got that bigger size engine, you’re using more oxygen.

Nick Jankovskis: It’s just an easy tweak I guess to the interval sessions that we’re doing is we’re making them harder with intensity but we’re actually giving athletes more rest. So I think that’s the thing that that gets a lot of them is I’m not necessarily feeling at the end of the session like I’ve worked harder than I have previously. You’ve been going hard in those intervals, but you’ve had plenty of recovery to be able to allow you to sustain that quality of interval. So again, that’s probably the biggest tweak we make is it’s just making athletes more aware of if we can increase the size of the engine to start with you’ve got more to play with. You don’t have to worry about, well, I’m only looking at 1 or 2 percent.

Nick Jankovskis: For some athletes, it’s the case of… and I had this sort of early last year, I had a cyclist come and see me, and he came in and he tested three or four months later, went away. All he did was really long slow base Ks and he did some really high intensity VO2 style intervals. He’s FTP went up by 30 watts and he hadn’t actually targeted a threshold type session. He’d given himself heaps to recovery in those really high intensity bouts but made them quality efforts, and then he just did lots of really long, slow, comfortable work.

Nick Jankovskis: And what happened was his VO2 max improved by about 10, 12 percent, and that allowed him to drag up his FTP with it. He ended up maxing in the test. I think it was… I’m going to get the numbers wrong, but let’s say if he maxed out at 300 watts in the first test the second test was 330. He finished the test. What it meant for his FTP was it was the same relative percentage of the engine, but he’s engine was bigger. So his FTP came up, and it was by about sort of 30 watts.

Nick Jankovskis: So that’s where we can see some improvement by working around it and looking at, all right, where are you sort of weak at the moment. If your ability is oxygen at the top end then your engine size isn’t great overall. Your percentage of that that you can hold in a race isn’t going to be much less than that max. You’ve only got probably 1 or 2 percent to chase. Why not chase 10, 15 percent and then changing the size of your engine completely because now it’s got the capacity to work through more. So I guess that’s probably the big one.

Nick Jankovskis: The other one as well as just overdoing the volume where we often get perceived from the outside, and we like to laugh about it a bit. We often get perceived from the outside as being sort of anti-volume training. We’re definitely not. Again, time and place. Where does it fit in and how much do you need. But it’s more of a case of when we’ve got athletes who are training for let’s say a 70.3 where they’re only going to be expected to run for maybe 90 minutes to two hours for the average age group. If they’re going out and doing a four hour run we just sort of look at that and go there’s not much method to the madness really. There’s not much going on there that’s useful.

Nick Jankovskis: Minimal effective doses is the principle whereby… so I guess the minimum amount of quality training we can do for the maximum benefit, allowing you to recover more and sort of tick multiple boxes off as opposed to, “I’m just doing Ks because everyone else is sort of doing Ks and doing crazy, crazy distances.” Sometimes that’s not the answer.

Brenton: It looks good on Strava.

Nick Jankovskis: It looks good on Strava. Yeah, you go out and do 200K ride. But sometimes that’s not the right way to go about it. It puts you at higher risk of injury, et cetera. So they’re probably the two major things.

Brenton: Yeah, that’s definitely a lot of crossover with what I’ve seen. And I think the other thing that that plays a part of that is why do people either do the long distances without maybe the planning behind it or the reason why behind it, or why aren’t they doing those high-intensity efforts with a lot more rest in between. And a big part of that… And I’ve even fallen into this trap when I’ve done distance training for sort of long-distance swims and even triathlon. It’s like all you want to try and do is just push yourself and push yourself and keep it sort of race pace or threshold pace, and you feel like if you take too much rest then you’re losing the benefits there. But sometimes if you take that step back and you actually give yourself some time to get the heart rate down you can keep the quality of your technique up if it’s in the pool but also keep the intensity up at that higher level. Then you really see a difference.

Brenton: And an example that I’ll give is one of our athletes who does a full out filming in Melbourne pretty regularly. He said he’s just started to plateau with his swim time. So I asked him what’s he doing with his training sessions because his technique has improved a lot over the last I think it’s been nine months. And there’s definitely some tweaks we can still make, but I was curious as to what he’s doing in his workouts. And most sessions he’ll get in the water, go through a K time trial just off the bat and then do maybe another eight, I don’t know, 8 to 12 hundred meters where it might be some sort of interval work but all pretty much at the same speed.

Brenton: So you look at that and go, “Sweet.” There is a lot of room available there to break out of that plateau, really increase your swim speed, and build that engine by just changing what you’re doing in your workouts. So it’s a really big component of getting faster. And there’s so many different things you can look at and especially for swimming. Obviously we’re focused heavily on technique, but workouts is definitely one of those, and then there’s mobility and things as well. But when you move these levers and all these different areas that’s when you really start to see these 1% improvements start to add up. So I think that’s, yeah, really interesting. We definitely see that same thing with the type of training that people are doing.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. And it’s a case as well. And again, we say it a lot with athletes who bang their head against the wall going, “Why am I not getting any faster?” But you just hit the nail on the head. They jump in the pool and they do a 1K time trial at the same pace every session. That’s going to get you really good at running terms [inaudible 00:16:45] off the tope of my head, but if you want to go out and run four minute Ks and all you do is running four minute Ks you get really good at four minute Ks. But if you want to run at 3:45s you have to practice… And this is where just taking things to the next level, is if you want to run at 3:45 and get better at it if you can go out and run short efforts at 3:30 pace and get better at those, yes, you’re giving yourself rest but it gives you that ability to go, “Hey, 3:45 isn’t so bad.”

Nick Jankovskis: And it’s the same in the pool. If you’re swimming… and I know a lot of guys and you’ve already say it’s like a lot of the triathletes come in and say that they can’t break through 1:40, 1:45 per 100 and they’re really trying to get down to I guess 90 seconds from sort of what… What we’ve seen over the last little while is I guess a bit of a magical barrier for a lot of people. They want to get down to a 90 second 100. But they can’t get down there. And I asked them, “Well, what are you doing in your training? Are you doing anything to teach your body to go that next level fast? Yeah. You don’t have to sustain it.” And that’s the key. You don’t have to necessarily go and swim a 120 100 all the time, but if you can swim that sort of 120 pace for 50, 75 meters that 190 is now looking a little bit more achievable.

Nick Jankovskis: So it’s just, yeah, changing I guess changing mindset a bit, and like anything, if you do it again and again and again you’ll get really good at it. But at some point you need to challenge yourself to go that next level and do something different to provide that next challenge and move up if it’s pace, if it’s holding a pace for a greater distance. Why do we overload? Why do we go from a 1K in the pool to 1.25 to 1500 meters to 2K? Why do you progress over? Because it’s progressively challenging us to go a little bit further distance a little bit further so when we get to race day where we’re able to handle it. It’s exactly the same. It’s just not awfully sort of looked at when it comes to how do we do the same for pace.

Brenton: Yeah, that’s it. And one of the things that I try and get the athletes that I coach to do is just if they’re not already just do some variable pace swimming where… an example of, there’s a young kid that lives pretty close to me. I coach him every now and then and do some training with him and he’s never done that much work towards training for his 400s. So he doesn’t know how to pace himself. And in terms of his speed his awareness around what pace he’s going isn’t as good as it could be. So a session that we did the other day was, I’ve got to think back to it, but I think it was 10 100s twice through. So it was 2100s and we worked off his goal for a 100 meter pace.

Brenton: So I think his sort of target pace was a 109 for the 400, but I think he’ll actually be quicker than that because of how he was swimming. But we basically started off at 400 pace plus 15 seconds. So 109 plus 15, so going for 124. I think we went plus… No. Was it 16? So plus 16, plus 14, plus 12, and then I think we went plus 10, then we had a recovery 100 then went down to, well yeah, plus 8, plus 6, then recovery. And then we went a plus 4 recovery, plus 2, recovery. And then I think one at 400 pace or maybe two at 400 paces, something along those lines. And the first set he was way off the mark. He went out at plus eight and then kind of went plus eight, plus eight, plus seven, and just didn’t quite have it.

Brenton: The second set he almost hit it every time. And we did a similar set yesterday and he was spot on. So it doesn’t take a lot to give you that awareness around what your pace is, especially for swimming when you don’t necessarily get to see what time you are doing [crosstalk 00:20:31] then that is such an important skill to have. So just throwing a simple set like that in can help you. And same for running. It can just help you get a sense.

Brenton: That’s one of the issues I have with wearing the watches so often is, yeah, in running I don’t mind it, but especially in the pool I’m against wearing the watches. I think if you can read your pace off the clock you’re so much better off because then you’re not distracted by your watch beeping and you’re just… When I’ve worn it in training my technique isn’t as good. My stroke isn’t as good, and I’m not as aware of those other things and that sort of sense of pace and feeling in my body. I lose that because of the distraction of the watch. So I’m a big fan of swimming without the watch just using the pace clock to know what times you’re doing.

Nick Jankovskis: And I think that’s something that a lot of athletes fall into the trap of and how that misconception of from the outside into what we do at METS is we are very numbers here and yeah we are in some circumstances and with training zones and that. But you’re dead right. If you can’t understand what pace your body is at without having to be glued to looking at a screen to tell you what you’re doing something is missing. You’re going to struggle on race day. I can guarantee.

Nick Jankovskis: I don’t get any of my guys to look at their watch during a session. I like to have them record the data and that’s probably about it purely from a factor of I just want to see post-session if I’m not able to be there with them, which a lot of our lot of our guys unfortunately we can’t be there every session with them. But just to be able to say what they did in the session and allow us to monitor fatigue, et cetera. But yeah, I’m exactly the same. I jump in the pool and yeah, I grew up swimming without a watch and I only wear it now purely for the purpose of recording data and then just to get used to it for race day racing tris where I’ve got it for pace and wattage and heart rate on the bike and the run. So it saves me a bit of time in transition trying to chuck it on.

Nick Jankovskis: But ideally, yeah, not really like to wear it in the swim because… pace clocks aren’t too bad through [inaudible 00:22:44]. If you’d understand what your body feels like at given intensities that’s hugely powerful and it transfers to running and cycling as well. If you don’t have to look at a screen to tell you what intensity is, if you can be pretty close and have a pretty good idea in stuff I’ve seen over the last two years anyway the best athletes that have come in and seen us have been able to tell us pretty much exactly what their heart rate should be doing at different intensities.

Nick Jankovskis: If it’s breaking down like they’re running on the treadmill, let’s say four minute K, the four seventeens and they say, “Oh, what’s heart rate,” they could pretty much recall heart rate to be honest. They can tell, “It should be about 165, 170 beats at whatever pace.” And sure enough it’s within about two beats of what they’re telling us. Maybe not to that level. I mean, that’s probably at the extreme end where you can really not go down and identify it, but just going out and being able to understand pace on your own without some of these technologies is extremely useful and shouldn’t be left behind.

Nick Jankovskis: At the same time you’ve got to balance it though with… and this is where just recording the data and having a look at it from an analysis point of view later on is where data is useful, and understanding what happened in that session and how it can improve. And I guess even sort of looking from a swimming perspective, and you could probably touch on more of this, is I’m sure with some of the guys you’re coaching you’re using stopwatches and things like that. At the end of the day it’s still recording data and having a look. You’re just taking that watch element away. So it gives you that benchmark to look at and go, “All right. What do we need to do next session to improve?” And it gives you a baseline to then measure against is probably the big thing. But yeah, you can’t underestimate how powerful it is to understand what your body is doing at different intensities and how you’re going to handle it.

Brenton: Yeah. That baseline. And where you’re at and what you’re doing is crucial. And an example of that is I had my guy, Michael Andrew on the podcast, the previous one actually. And he’s a professional swimmer in the States. The two types of training he does, so the morning session is what’s called ultra short race pace training, which is basically going at a specific race pace, kind of self explanatory, with about 15 seconds rest in between, and you’re looking to hit your race pace in every 25 or every 50 that you’re doing. And if you don’t, basically if you fail three times… or the first time you fail you will sit out that next interval. So you’ll take an extra maybe 45 seconds, then you’ll go the next one. And then if you fail three times then you just stop the set.

Brenton: So it’s being really specific with what pace you’re doing and making sure that you’ve got those times every single time there. And he records all of these 25s, all these 50s every session. I think he’s got that data from years back. And so the way that they, well, he and his coach, his dad is his coach, the way they kind of determine how he’s going and if he’s improving is by they can look back at this data from many, many years and they can see this improvement from when he was a 14 year old kid to now I think he’s about 19.

Brenton: And the other way that they continue to improve is not just in slowly changing how hard these workouts are and how many of the intervals they’re doing but the technique side of things. They’re constantly using the GoPros and cameras to record, make small adjustments to how he’s working his underwaters. And with those two things together and knowing what numbers they’re looking for and try trying to achieve they’ve been very calculated with how he’s been able to improve over the last sort of 10 years since he’s been swimming. That’s an extreme end of things for the average person. That’s not going to happen. But just kind of knowing roughly what paces you should be doing, at what heart rates and so on, that’s when you actually know whether you’re getting better or not.

Brenton: And that’s not only good for knowing how you’re training but I think from a motivation perspective when you see those little improvements come drives you on to do the next bit of training.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah, absolutely. I always look at it in perspective. Data is there to help you and assist and… if it’s not providing anything more useful than what you’re already doing there’s no point in using it. But if it is there giving you let’s say if it’s something to motivate you to hit particular paces but then also show that clear sign of progression or if you’re regressing and going the opposite direction, if you plateauing a bit, you’re going to know through monitoring data over a period of time. If it’s there and it’s useful and it’s implemented correctly that’s where it’s super powerful.

Nick Jankovskis: And that’s where I think a lot of probably more of the old school culture, old school athletes sort of freak out a bit when I say all this technology and data and go, “Oh, there’s just all these numbers and it’s almost overwhelming.” And even from our perspective, I mean, we use TrainingPeaks to analyze and have a look at data and that, and to be completely [inaudible 00:27:51] I look at half of the metrics on there because even then from a sports science perspective there’s just too many numbers sometimes that… Is it doing anything useful to assist me in helping an athlete or is it useful for an athlete to know? Yes or no.

Nick Jankovskis: If it ticks the yes box then great. We’ll talk about we’ll implement it. If it’s no, I’m not even concerned. It’s going to change as we go. We’ve got new technology coming out. A little while ago I think you guys had swim paddles that are going to be measuring power and things like that that you are getting guys to trial out, a whole bunch of different technology and data that we can use. And that’s just the reality of endurance sport, is again, very tech focused and trying to try to nail down the 1 and 2 percent little differences, particularly at elite level but for some people at the amateur age group level. Some of those 1 or 2 percent differences for a pro could mean 10, 15 percent. It’s just finding out which ones, again, are going to be useful.

Nick Jankovskis: The easy one is bike technology for triathletes. So talking to some of the guys who [inaudible 00:29:00] to them about bike fitting and bike time trial position aerodynamics, the difference between frames and what companies say is the most aerodynamic frame really honestly isn’t a lot for the average person. He’s not really going to gain too much. But being aware of your position on the bike and being able to sustain it and learn how to hold a quality position and then doing the training to condition yourself to power that bike is far more important.

Nick Jankovskis: So if the data can help you from that perspective and get you in a comfortable and powerful position and looking at things like you said with using GoPros in the pool and that to assist the technique side of things or the technical side of things, and then I think from a conditioning point of view, yeah, making sure you’re hitting heart rates or paces that are going to provide that positive adaptation. You’re not just doing the same thing again and again and again. That’s where data is going to be or data is its most effective, and that’s where it has its place, being a slave to it and just being stuck on it and going, “I have to look at my watch every 5, 10 seconds because I’m always paranoid about I’m going to not keep my intensity or not be holding the right heart rate,” is definitely not the right way to go about it at all.

Brenton: And one metric that I just can’t stand looking at is on the swim watches with the SWOLF score there. It’s really inaccurate and it doesn’t mean a thing. Whenever someone asks me about it, they’re like, “Oh, this is my SWOLF score. This is kind of how it’s been going.” Don’t worry about it. It is super inaccurate. So just ignore that one because there’s a time and place for looking at how many strokes you’re taking and the pace as well. I don’t know. I’ve moved a long way away from that. And when the number is inaccurate, well, the data doesn’t really mean anything anyway because the… one of the reasons it’s an accurate is because let’s say you wear your watch on your right hand and you take a strike with your left hand first. I don’t think it registers that. And then same with what hand you finish on.

Brenton: So the numbers just don’t mean anything. So just to ignore that. And I find it’s just a distraction. So yeah. The same thing with [inaudible 00:31:14] running clinics and working with swimmers is look at it from the macro perspective. People often ask questions that are too micro focused and they’re not looking at the bigger picture.

Nick Jankovskis: Big picture. Yeah.

Brenton: And what’s really going to contribute to them swimming faster in the next 6 to 12 months. So yeah, don’t be too concerned with the minute details of your stroke where there’s just so much more opportunity available there. So I think from your perspective as well it sounds like that you do tests, VO2 max, you might do your lactate testing. Do your test. You get that data and then once we’ve got that data we just want to use that in our training, and then just kind of forget about that for now and just go about your training. You want to keep it really simple. It’s so easy to get tied up on things.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah, 100%. Like I said before, it’s a case of… I mean if you go out and do a run, and I say it to guys all the time, it’s not the end of the world if… If we’re going out and trying to do a long slow run and you’re trying to hold a heart rate of 140 to 150 beats a minute it’s not the end of the world if your heart rate goes up to 155. Start to back off and obviously as best you can we want to try and keep that heart rate within that zone. But it’s not the end of the world.

Nick Jankovskis: If you’re happy [inaudible 00:32:29] running slow on a particular day those days are going to happen. But at the same time the difference between… And it’s the athletes who get caught up on like, “I was one second per K slower.” The difference between that is so minute that it’s not going to make or break your training. And if there happens to be a session where I’m 10 or 15 seconds per K slower, if it’s one isolated session, one, what was the reason for it? Was it fatigue induced? Was it you had a stressful day at work and you’re just not motivated for the session so you just couldn’t push hard enough? We can pinpoint the reasoning and then we can try and eliminate that for the future and avoid it.

Nick Jankovskis: But one session isn’t going to make or break your four, five, six months prep. For some of the guys doing Ironman they’re probably training for six to eight months prior. One session is going to make or break it. An accumulation of those will. So not being caught up in like you said minute details of the tiny little things in snapshots of time. It’s how does this fit into the whole big picture. And I guess from our perspective it’s looking at your big picture training program or training plan for key race, a key event and going, “Well, I missed three sessions this week because I got sick but I just wouldn’t have been able to get out and do it.” I get the question all the time. Should I make up a session when I’m feeling good?

Nick Jankovskis: More often than not I turn around at athletes and say absolutely not because all you’re going to do is just put yourself back into that cycle of either over fatigue yourself and then you’ll get sick again or you just won’t fully recover from your sickness because you’ll try and go back into it too soon. But yeah, if you miss a session or two six months out it’s not going to have any impact on your race result at all. If you’re missing six weeks of training, different story.

Nick Jankovskis: And again, big, big picture. One hour swim, what percentage of that is out of a six month Ironman training program where potentially athletes doing anywhere between 16 and 20 hours a week what percentage of that total training volume over that six months are you actually missing by missing that session or not quite nailing that session? You’re talking less than 1%. When it accumulates again… so big picture is where you have the issues. But yeah, I couldn’t agree with you completely on that one. You got to think what’s biggest bang for buck?

Nick Jankovskis: And again, coming back to the principle of what we’re using minimal effective dose. What training sessions are going to mean that… potentially some athletes for 70.3 and like some of our guys looking at their big picture some of them are 50, 55 years of age. They still work reasonably full time or close to. Just can’t get out 15, 17 hours a training a week for a 70.3. What’s going to give them the biggest return big picture in terms of their overall health, their injury risk, but then also what’s going to give them the best race result by only training sort of 10, 12 hours a week? How can we get the same big return look, all right, if I have to pick and choose the absolute critical parts, what are they?

Nick Jankovskis: That’s the same with technique. One of the big critical parts to swim technique, and we sort of had a chat about this the other week, is just, well, there’s a whole bunch of things that you could look at but if your body is not sitting in the right position to start with or you’re not aligned that’s a big issue that we need to fix. Tick the big ticket items off first. Once you’ve got through all, sure, that go for the one percenters, and that’s when we start talking about… I mean, from our end you really at that point you want to be first or second in your category in your age group qualifying for world champion. And it’s a difference between you making a championships and you’re not, or at the pro end of the spectrum where prize money is on the line and it’s if I’m not 1% better or half a percent better on race day that’s going to make or break whether I can continue racing that season as a pro and sustain it.

Nick Jankovskis: So that’s where it becomes important, those minute details, right at that pointy end. But for the vast majority of athletes, particularly athletes where you see… From our end we look at it, go it’s such simple big picture fixes that once you explain it and you can sort of, I guess… education is probably the big part. Once you can educate the athlete on how this does fit into the big picture and how we can change quite simple things to produce big results that’s the powerful part of it.

Brenton: I was just talking to Wayne Goldsmith, and he’s kind of almost a consultant to a lot of different sports on how to keep kids in sport. And we were just talking about with younger kids that there’s a big focus on just getting them to do the laps. And he reckons swimming can be the least fun sport for kids because if they came in two hours in the pool and it might just be grinding it out day after day. It’s early mornings. You don’t really get to chat with your friends when you’re doing it. So compare that to say, soccer for example, where even if you are training three hours a day you still get to chat with your friends and it’s a team sport. So what can you do? What can coaches do to keep kids in sport?

Brenton: And it doesn’t matter if a kid’s got this awesome aerobic base from 12 to 16 years of age and he’s got this great VO2 max. If he’s sitting at home at 17 playing Fortnite because the only person you can get to do anything is the person who’s quit the sport. So what can you do to keep it [inaudible 00:38:03]? And I think even from a… adults sort of they typically do the things they want to be doing. So it’s a bit of a different story. But if you’re not having fun and you’re not enjoying yourself then you’ve lost already.

Brenton: So do those things that you enjoy and don’t get too caught up in things if it makes you anxious, if it causes you to stress over these little things. You’ve only got the one life. So you want to live it. You want to enjoy it. And I think… that’s why I think it’s important to use the data but don’t get too caught up in it and having someone… so you will look there to say, “All right. This is what I want you to do. Now go out and do it. Try and hit this heart rate but leave the rest to you. Leave the stress to you [inaudible 00:38:50] deeply into it.”

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. And just to touch on your point about the youth and sport, I guess that’s… people often go, “Oh, yeah. There’s these kids on elite pathway stuff and specialization.” And you see it in adults too. The number of guys I’ve got who’ve trained for Ironman who go, “No. You know what? I don’t want to swim and ride in the next three months. I’m going to go and just do a marathon and I’m just going to run for a bit because I need something different.” Variety in what you do is so critical, and it seems sort of ironic that a sport where you’ve got three sports within it someone needs a bit of variety or a shakeup.

Nick Jankovskis: It still can happen because going out and doing, “I have to swim.” Most of them are pretty routine. “So I have to swim on a Monday, then I’ll have to ride Tuesday, and I’m going to run Wednesday.” Breaking out that routine, doing something completely different or just focusing on one can be enough. But then yeah, at a use level or at a kid’s level with sport… I did a paper on it for my undergrad at uni [inaudible 00:39:53] specialization in kids.

Nick Jankovskis: Even from the fact of, yes, staying in the sport is one thing and trying to retain kids. And you’d know through swimming as well. And we had this issue when I was at Big Center is trying to retain good swimmers who just, yeah, their friends are doing other things. They want to go try other sports, but the commitment for swimming is too high. And if they’re not swimming six times a week or seven times a week the perception is they’re not going to be any good and they’re not going to make teams and things like that. So they just quit completely.

Nick Jankovskis: But all the research from everywhere around the world… I did a lot of my looking into what types of athletes or what kids end up becoming professional in the States given that their population is so massive and they’ve got so many kids competing at such an elite level so early, what percentage of the kids who are going in high school actually make it to NBA, NFL, professional leagues, Olympic Games, et cetera. And it was all the kids who specialized early and just did the one sport from a young age, played baseball, basketball, swimming all year round, that’s all they did, blew up in college and really very rarely made it to the pros.

Nick Jankovskis: I think it was something like 0.14% of all professional athletes in the State when the study was done with kids who’d specialized all the way through. Everyone else had come from a multi-sport background. So they’d played… if we’re talking in terms of Australia they’ve swam, they go and play footy with their mates on the weekend, but then they’re involved in the school’s basketball team. They do different sports. And it was that variety that one build skills across each.

Nick Jankovskis: And it’s the same transference between if you look at triathletes per the example is the requirements and core strength and ability to control your upper body through your core and to your lower body and up and down the chain, that coordination aspect can’t be underestimated from what you achieve in swimming, but then also the transfer of that coordination on to how you lock down your upper body to then drive off the lower body and on the bike and then how you then not allow that upper body to rotate too much when you’re running and allow the legs to do their thing as well.

Nick Jankovskis: So it’s that transference aspect that again it’s gets sort of lost in. If we need to be good at something we need a practice that more and just focus on it. Particularly at a young age, it just doesn’t work. But even at the adult level I see it, particularly some of my older guys who are sort of coming either late into the sport or have been in the sport for a number of years and start to think about, well, they’re starting to wrap things up in their working lives and that with retirement and that. So they’re trying to look at different things they can do.

Nick Jankovskis: I’ve got guys who never touched mountain bikes before now going and racing cross tri- because it’s something different. They would never have ridden through a puddle of mud in their lives and now they’re splashing around on a mountain bike in an off road triathlon race. I mean, something like that, it changes it completely. Yes, it still cycling, but now you’re having to indulge in three single track and hit some rocks and things like that. It just breaks open the sport a bit, gives you a new set of skills, and when they then come back and race, one, they mentally fresh but also, two, they’ve developed the whole bunch of different in that exact example bike control skills that they may or may not have had that are probably going to help them out when they’re on the road anyway.

Nick Jankovskis: So yeah, I’ve always been a big fan for particularly youth athletes, but overall if you’ve got some sort of variety, you’ve got some sort of outlet other than the sport that you’re competing in, great. If you can’t get that in during the season and you really want to focus on your sport off season you have to be doing something different.

Brenton: So parents just keeping the taxi service going and drive their kids around to multiple sports as they’re growing up. And you look at someone like Kyle Chalmers, the 100 freestyler Olympic gold medalist, he-

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah, he could still play AFL footy.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I think not only obviously that experience as a footy player is good for him in terms of his physical development, but I think mentally as well it’s kind of… without knowing him to me it seems like because he could still play AFL footy and he might very well do it that when it comes to pressure in competing at a very high level it just seems like it doesn’t affect him nearly as much as it does other swimmers. Look at Cate Campbell for example, who’s kind of buckled under that pressure.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. James Magnussen as well.

Brenton: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whereas he’s kind of got almost an app whereas he knows he’s got options there. So I don’t think it affects him mentally as much. So it’s good for that side of things too.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. Absolutely. It takes the pressure off because you go, “Well, if it doesn’t turn out here… ” You don’t necessarily have to be a gun. He’s probably an exceptional example where yeah, he could be a professional athlete in a different sport. And you still see it. I mean, you have a look at someone like Ellyse Perry who was for a while playing cricket for Australia and then soccer for Australia and just about everything for Australia at one point of time. Absolutely a gun cricketer but also still a gun soccer player and maybe not the best at soccer. And that’s probably why she ended up transferring and spending 100% of the time in cricket now and kind of scheduling classes, et cetera, and it’s not… yeah. We’re not saying you have to go out and be a pro at all sports.

Nick Jankovskis: You can still have one as your main one, but it’s handy to still have those backups to give you something else. Stay mentally ready to go. But yeah, it takes the pressure off because at the end of the day if you don’t perform well it’s like, well, if you decide later on maybe this isn’t for me, you’ve got something else sitting there ready to go. Whereas if you’ve only got one sport… and the perfect example is Lionel Sanders in triathlon. If anyone’s watched any of his stuff on YouTube he’s so intense about what he does and he sort of admits that as well. He gets right into it and just can’t sort of deviate from it.

Nick Jankovskis: And I reckon that’s what hurts him in the end because he just tries almost too hard to make it work going… If he wasn’t racing Ironman triathlon, what would he be doing? And I know from the outside it’s sort of easy to say, “I don’t really know what he’d be doing,” but he potentially couldn’t answer that question. I think that’s a big thing that if athletes can’t answer that question of, “If you tomorrow couldn’t compete… “

Nick Jankovskis: And it actually just reminds me of a quote one of my junior footy coaches used to say. And it’s sort of a bit of an extreme example, but I remember he used to say in games that sort of meant a bit he would just say before the game, “By the end of this game if you got a concussion, or you broke your leg or something and you could never play footy again would you, one be happy with your performance throughout, one, the season but, two, that game. But then, two, what would you do?” He was a big advocate. He came from PE teaching background of go and try other things because it’s going to help your performance on field and footy. If you like cross country running, go and do that because your aerobic fitness is going to help you be a better midfielder or go and play soccer or basketball because now your hand eye coordination, or your foot eye coordination is a lot more in tune.

Nick Jankovskis: That was an interesting thing that sort of stuck with me in terms of you have a look at some of these pro athletes at the top level that potentially that sport is all they’ve got. No wonder you see them sort of crumble once they leave that sport or something goes wrong because there isn’t anything else to take up that attention. So you can almost sort of prevent that a bit. And I think from a coaching side of things, that’s sort of our role as well to help drive that and prevent some of those downfall or potential downfalls later on.

Nick Jankovskis: But the variety in what you do is going to help your performance in your sport at the time anyway. But also it’s potentially going to give you something post racing, post-career. Once you sort of decided that maybe you’ve had enough it gives you something to go away focus on and maybe you do then reinvent yourself. Plenty examples of athletes. I mean, Cam Wurf in triathlon now a gun. He’s killing races at the moment but didn’t quite make it as a pro cyclist. So he came to triathlon and now he’s the fastest bike on the course. I mean, that’s a perfect example. Probably years ago he didn’t think he was probably going to get into triathlon at the level he’s racing, but having a bit of that ability to transfer across to another sport quite easily and work with components gave him a new challenge is something that’s helping him be probably more successful than he potentially could have been if he stayed in cycling.

Brenton: It’s very easy to get caught just playing in the same field or just kind of get caught doing the same thing because we think that we can’t go out and do different things or we feel like I’ll be too far behind. I’ve just taken up mountain biking and not competing or anything but just riding. I haven’t been on my road bike for three years since doing Ironman, but bought a mountain bike and it is so much fun. And now I’m considering maybe getting back on the road bike. But we’ll wait and see.

Brenton: Yeah, it’s just doing those new things there’s so much opportunity available to get better at it that if you’re at the top end of your sport those little 1% improvements are harder to make. Whereas with something new it’s okay to suck at something, and you’re always going to suck at something the first couple of times you do it, even the first couple of years to do it. But there’s so much room for improving, and that’s what I’m getting a lot of enjoyment out of. Going around berms, so kind of going around corners I can hardly do that properly. I’m just starting to get the cornering right. It’s such a basic part.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. Biking is hard.

Brenton: Yeah. But what I’ve actually taken from that and not just the exercise side of it I’m thinking of… all right. I’m trying to teach myself how to go around these corners and make sure that my correct foot is down and I’m kind of leaning into the corner the right way and lowering that center of gravity, and I’m translating that into how I coach people and what people are probably going through in swimming when they’re trying to learn as well. There’s things to do in swimming and you think it’s just some basic movement. It can’t be that confusing, but trying to just go around a berm on my mountain bike I’m like, “All right. It’s pretty confusing.” And you’ve got to give people enough time to just repeat it and continually make these little improvements along the way. So there’s a lot you can learn from doing something new.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah, absolutely. So spot on from a coach’s perspective. I know training sessions and riding programs inside and out, but racing that program or training off that program I’m still learning. I’m only 22 at the moment. So in terms of my race experience is pretty limited compared to a lot of guys, which is exactly why… You will say mountain bike. My challenge at the moment is I’ve signed myself up for [inaudible 00:51:13] 70.3 at the end of the year mostly from the fact of putting myself through it and going, “All right. How are athletes potentially actually feeling through some of these sessions?” I know that they’re hard. I know that some of them are difficult. I know the science. I definitely know the science behind exactly why I’m giving it to them.

Nick Jankovskis: But what is that person actually going through in that session? And more importantly, what is that person actually going through in that race? What does it feel like when you get 18Ks into a 21K run of a half Ironman and you’ve got nothing left? Not that I hope I get to that point and I hope I have a good race. But in terms of that, I mean, I think if we’re now talking, flipping it the other way and talking to coaches I can’t stress enough that sort of… I guess practice what you preach, but then also, yeah, look to other opportunities to take out a way of teaching or a way of coaching a particular skill and understand how it’s done somewhere else to then maybe apply it back.

Nick Jankovskis: I probably really enjoy the most about working at METS is we don’t just see… we’re not just triathlon and we’re not just swimming. We’re not just cycling. We’re endurance as a whole. Particularly for the trial guys, they’re always wanting to know, “All right. How can I get faster on the bike?” So I instantly look at, well, what are the guys on the gun cyclists doing that I’ve seen come in? What are they doing? What are they doing in time trials? What are they doing position wise? How do they best training to adapt their physiology course, start to apply those principles across? What are some of our gun marathon runners doing that we could maybe apply to some of our own men athletes who are having to run a marathon on dead legs? From a nutrition standpoint, how is some of the guys in triathlon dealing with nutrition over the course of a day?

Nick Jankovskis: So someone who’s riding their first 400, 500 K ride will do like around a bay top event where they’re going to be out there all day for the first time. How can they manage nutrition in a way that maybe we can learn from triathlon. So that transference of skills across to then see things in a different way, and then remembering that as a coach or from our coaches side of things remembering that it seems so easy to us because we’re the expert on it. I think that’s the big thing. It seems so easy that, “All right. I know how to change technique,” or, “I know how to change that training session, adjust it,” trying to explain that to someone else. And I followed this chat with… we’ve got a bunch of sports science interns working with us at the moment who are second year at their degree.

Nick Jankovskis: Every now and then I’ll say something that they just look at me with a blank face and go, “What the hell are you talking about?” And then I turn I go, “Wait, I have to explain this in a way that they’re going to want to stand on their level.” And I think that’s probably just as important as a coach to understand because, yeah, you might be saying it to an athlete and the athlete may just look at you on the day, if you’re doing some swim technique with them or running, they might just turn around and look at you and go, “Oh, yeah, cool. Yup, Yup, Yup.”

Nick Jankovskis: They walk away and 10 minutes later they’ve got no idea what you’ve just said because they’ve just tried to take it all in. They’ve tried to be sort of polite and nice and go, “Wow! You’ve got all this information. Clearly you know what you’re talking about. I just have to take it in and hope something sticks.” From our end we go, “Oh, cool. They just understood it. Great. I’ll just keep explaining it like that.” But eventually someone’s going to come through and go, “I don’t get it.”

Brenton: Yeah. They’ll be honest.

Nick Jankovskis: That’s when it’s the hardest because then you turn around and go, “I’ve only ever explained it that way. How else can I explain it?” And so I guess Luke put a big emphasis when I first started METS on let’s use analogies all the time, and I’ve already used a few today with like engine size, bring it back to a V6 V8. I use my office or our office here in Mulgrave as an analogy all the time. I talk about if we’re trying to improve your ability to get oxygen in into the muscle it’s like, well, the office inside where we’re sitting is the muscle. Outside is the bloodstream. If you’ve only got one door into the office you’ve only got one pathway for oxygen to come in.

Nick Jankovskis: By doing long slow training at high intensity we can manipulate how many doors we have, how many doors are open. Are those doors just a standard swivel or are they a revolving door? Do we just knock out the whole wall and get as much oxygen in as we can? Analogies are like that and trying to find different ways of presenting the information is so critical, because, yeah, like I said, eventually you’re going to get that one person who turns around and goes, “I have no idea what you just said.”

Nick Jankovskis: And they shouldn’t be expected to know what you said unless they’re a swim coach or there’s a sport scientists or they’ve done a degree, et cetera. They’re probably not going to have an idea. And even then they might not be… I’ve had guys come in who’ve done sports science degrees. I’ve had guys do masters degrees in strength conditioning and things like that sit in front of me and still go, “I still don’t get… I haven’t heard any of this before.” And they’ve done probably more study than what I’ve done currently. And it’s just a case of I just see this. I see testing data and training data day in, day out, day in, day out. So I know that really well.

Nick Jankovskis: But even someone who studied some of the concepts before still cannot quite put the pieces together. And so finding the way that you can pretty much guide them through. If the first time you try and take them through it doesn’t work have a second, have a third, have a fourth, have a fifth different way of explaining it because one of them eventually is going to stick. If you give them five different examples and they still can’t get it all right, maybe it’s a communication thing on either end of the spectrum. It’s going to eventually work one way, and then once it does click for them that one goes to the second on the list and you go, “All right. That’s a really good analogy.” And maybe that’s a better analogy or a better way of explaining coaching, describing something than what you originally were using.

Nick Jankovskis: We talk about it all the time. I mean, things that I explain like the office analogy I used before. I don’t think Luke uses that one. He uses turnstiles at the football. If you’ve got one turnstile and you got 100000 people trying to get into the MCG it’s not going to work. We need to build four, five, six, we need to build seven gates around the ground and put 10 turnstiles at each. How are we going to do that? Here’s the type of training that’s going to develop that adaptation. So it’s a little bit what resonates with you, but then also what’s going to capture the athlete’s imagination to understand what you’re talking about and then implement it. It’s underrated I reckon. Absolutely underrated.

Brenton: Yeah. A couple of months ago I had someone comment on one of the videos we put up on YouTube. And I think it was a coach, and just this big paragraph, probably four or five hundred words. I think he was talking about the catch, but I couldn’t understand a word he was saying. I don’t know if he was trying to sort of up himself and just kind of talk up how much he knew.

Nick Jankovskis: Happens a lot.

Speaker 2: Yeah. As a swim coach who’s done it for 12 years and I can understand anything that you’re saying how is a student going to understand that? It’s someone who you’re trying to teach. So I think the simplest you can make something is the best version of it. One of the things that we talk about is the rotation of your hips and your upper body and basically getting you to connect up the catch in your rotation and getting this extra power through the cross connection through your body.

Brenton: And I explained this. This was up in Noosa. One of the summers who attended she’d kind of heard about how you want to drive from your hips but never really understood it. But the way that I like to describe it, and I heard this years ago and I think it plays really well, is if you are going to throw a ball and you’re not allowed to rotate your upper body or your hips at all you might get it say 20 meters. But as soon as you can throw it like you would a baseball where you can open up through your hips you can open up through your upper body and almost use that upper body and hips as a sling to throw out forwards then you’re just going to get two, three times the distance.

Brenton: And it’s similar in swimming and similar for overhead sports where when you do allow that rotation to come in then you can just get so much more out of it. So we normally explain that and then take them into some drills that involve that rotation and we get them to feel for the difference from not actually rotating forwards to then actually doing it and having them almost do the wrong thing and the right thing. We do this with kind of getting them to feel for how much drag is created if they put the brakes on when their hand extends out in front. Then we get them to do it in the right position. And just to teach them in I think experiential ways is as good as you can do. And then they can get a sense of when they are in the right position and when they’re not, and then they can make that adjustment.

Brenton: And then using analogies because we all like to listen to stories and then our thinking brain just switches off and we’re in the moment. We experienced it without judgment. And that’s why I think, yeah, stories and analogies are the best way to really describe things because no one is kind of thinking in the back of their mind is this guy just… is he full of it or what? But we’re just able to take it in.

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s really interesting. I don’t know if you’ve had it and shared some of those analogies. But every now and then just pops up on social media. We’ve seen athletes we’ve seen previously whether a coaching client or they’ve come in just for testing and every now and then you see it pop up on their feed. They’re talking about how much better their race result was or they’re feeling better in terms of their training and just in the caption underneath they sort of leave a few comments about, “Oh, yeah, like now I’ve got this bigger V8 engine. I can fit more cylinders in.” They’re just talking the same language that you explained it. I think that’s probably the really cool thing is that that’s the confirmation that they understand.

Nick Jankovskis: And if they can then pretty much… and they I don’t necessarily have to repeat it back to you in the same detail, but if they can get all the key points you were trying to get across and they understand it because of the way you presented it that’s what we’re trying to do as a coach at the end of the day is trying to get someone to understand what we’re trying to get them to do really.

Nick Jankovskis: And yeah, we get that sometimes or occasionally we’ve seen… and we know people have obviously been listening to a podcast where we’ve used a very specific analogy and it’s popped up somewhere else on social media or we’ve… I think there was one time where it… I can’t remember where we were. Luke and I had a presentation somewhere or a conference type set up. I can’t remember what I was talking about, but it came up in someone’s presentation. And we kind of just looked at each other and went, “Where have they pulled that one from?” knowing full well pretty much where it’d come from. It was a podcast episode or a video we’d done ages ago.

Nick Jankovskis: And that was the kind of cool thing that… And we’ve always been pretty open book. If you want to take our stuff and [inaudible 01:02:00] reshare. And if you’re so inclined to try and brand as your own, go for it. It’s all going to come back in the end. So we’re happy to just throw stuff out and put it out there and just help educate as best we can to try and get of points across. It’s sort of interesting how athletes resonate with… don’t worry about talking about that top end. As a sports scientist, great. If someone wants to come and have a conversation with me about differences in power meters and the plus minus percentage in left versus right, cool, come and have a conversation with me about it.

Nick Jankovskis: If I start talking about that to an athlete who’s only just bought a tri bike and nothing else it’s just not going to… There’s a time and place and you got to know who your audience is. Because even then, I mean, some athletes are really good with it. We have some guys who are full on. One of the guys I coach at the moment he’s converted his bedroom into basically an altitude chamber. He’s real right into it, has ticked every box and wants to tick every box, and we can start to talk in a bit more of that complex language because he wants to know. And the athlete is going to tell you. If I want to know more and they want to know why they’re going to ask for it.

Nick Jankovskis: Some athletes don’t really care. They just want to know what they have to do. They don’t really want to know the why or need to know the why. So I think you just have to pick your audience as well. And analogies work for most people as a starting point, but then based on who you’re talking to is going to guide where the next part of that conversation goes. I mean, you only have to look as far as any physiology podcast. If you look at any of the ones that are up there that are sort of hour long, hour and a half episodes we have to listen to them for professional development, stuff like that. And we just go, “Oh, get to the point.” There’s so much complex science in there that we understand it.

Nick Jankovskis: Anyone navigating it who’s going… that one athlete who turned and goes, “I want to know about the sports science, but I don’t have a background in it. So I’m kind of starting from scratch.” So they’re taking a really big jump to get up to that. That was the exact reason why our podcast that we started and you jumped on the other week is exactly how it’s set up, is let’s just keep it to common language that we can talk about regardless of who you are, who’s listening to it or who’s on the podcast, having a chat. Anyone is going to be able to understand it because if anyone can understand it then we’re getting our point across, and it’s going to be pretty clear in what we’re trying to achieve.

Nick Jankovskis: If no one’s understanding it then we’re not communicating in the correct way. And if you refine that down to individual one on one work with an athlete if you can’t communicate to your athlete what you need them to do or want them to do they’re not going to be able to execute on that. And they’re probably not going to improve as a result because they’re not going to be doing what is set out for them.

Brenton: Yeah. Completely. And for people who have listened to this and they might be based in Melbourne or somewhere in Australia what’s the best place to get in touch with yourself and the team, and what are the websites and the socials?

Nick Jankovskis: Yeah. So team first, so everything on social and I guess if you look anything up on Google is just METS Performance. So M-E-T-S generally in capitals, Performance is where you can find us. Occasionally it’ll come up as METS Performance Consulting. It’s the same thing. If you’re looking at the logo it’s a little running man with a heart heartbeat symbol in the background. Yeah, we’re on Facebook, Instagram. We’ve got a YouTube page. If you look up METS Mastermind on Google you’ll be able to jump into our free content site, which is all the stuff that we’ve come up with over the last couple of years and it’s got a podcast and it’s got whole bunch of free endurance information, how to build training programs and navigate strength conditioning and a whole bunch of different things.

Nick Jankovskis: That also links to our free Facebook community. There’s over a thousand endurance athletes from Melbourne across Australia and a few international athletes as well, coaches, sports scientists, pretty much just a forum space where we can go into some of those more detailed conversations like I was sort of alluding to before, but also there’s sort of get to know what is happening in the endurance community, what we’re doing here, and maybe pick up some tips.

Nick Jankovskis: In terms of me personally mostly on Instagram is where I spend most of my time. So you can find me at NJ_sportsscience. Or if you check my last name in the notes for the podcast, search it there, a pretty long one. Otherwise on Facebook as well. It’s Nick Jankovskis-sports scientist I think it’s what my Facebook page is called. I haven’t really set that one up fully yet, but they’re the main two. But mostly on Instagram. And then in terms of getting in contact with us either via social, so sending us a message on Instagram or Facebook or if you want to get in touch with me directly to set up a testing session just send a email nick@mets performance.com and, yeah, we are happy to set up and happy to help out. So yeah, that’s pretty much it.

Look at it from the macro perspective, people often ask questions that are too micro focused and they’re not looking at the bigger picture and what’s really going to contribute to them swing fast in the next six to 12 months. So don’t be too concerned with the minute details of your stroke. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast, the show that helps swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to episode number 136. Today’s episode is how to not let the numbers and data rule your swimming. My guest today is Nick Jankowskas from Metz Performance and they’re a Melbourne based company that help athletes with a whole range of tests that you can use to then use some data to incorporate that into how you’re training, particularly for endurance athletes. So a lot of that is around VO2 max testing, lactic threshold testing and they’ve

got a few other ones as well. In this episode, we look at how you can use some of the numbers and the tests that elite athletes use, but use them in a simple and effective way and not get caught up in them. Because one of the things that I hate is complexity. So that’s why we try and keep things very simple. And I like Nick’s approach and Metz Performance approach using these numbers, but then not getting too caught up in them every time that you train and not worrying if you’re five seconds off per hundred or six seconds off per hundred in one session looking at a macro scale. So really just how to keep enjoying what you’re doing, having fun, but making sure that you’re using the right scientific approach to your training. And before we get into the episode, I want to let you know about the camps that we’ve got running next year. We’ve just finalised our Noosa camp, which is a brand new camp that we’ll be running.

It’s a six day, five night camp held in Noosa, which is one of my favourite places in the world. It’s just beautiful and well, I was there for a couple of weeks with the family and got some of the best sunrises and sunsets and just a really, really special place to swim. So we’ve got a six day camp there where the first couple of days we’ll be doing some open water swimming. We’ll be doing a lot of underwater filming, analysis, coaching. They’ll be a very high coach to swim a ratio there. And we were also tying it in with an event which will be held on the last day. So Iron Man are running a swim event there. There’s a one, two and three point eight K option. And that’s going to be the final thing that we do at the camp. So everyone will choose their events and then we’ll all go out for lunch afterwards. And if you enjoy swimming, if you love the beach, if you love open water swimming, plus you want to improve your swimming,

then this is going to be a really fun camp that I can’t wait for. So that’s in May next year. If you’re interested in that, go to the website at effortlessswing.com and click on the camp section. And you can find more details about the Noosa camp. We’ve also opened up bookings for our Hell Week camps, which will be held in October next year. They are our Thailand camps that we’ve run for the last five years. And for those that have listened for a while, you know that those camps book up 12 months in advance. So we’ve just decided to open updates or bookings really early if you are interested in booking. So you can book it into that now. And we’re also running our Hawaii camps next year. Details for those will be finalized very shortly. So if you’re listening to this a few weeks late, then you can probably find details about the Hawaii camp on our website. So head to effortlessswing.com for more details on those.

Let’s get into the episode with Nick Jankowskas from Met’s Performance. Our philosophy behind things is trying to bring the common, I guess, elite sports science that commonly is not really been available to the everyday athlete, to bring that to a more readily available platform and allow guys to go through, do their veritimax testing, understand what their physiology is doing, understand where their training zones fit, so what their heart rate is like, what intent they should be holding for different types of sessions. And then have a clear recommendation for them of how they should go about their next block of training. So I guess that leads into really what we do now with our guys that we coach. So we mostly work with our top five as swimmers, cyclists, runners, rowers, and triathletes, with triathletes, cyclists and runners. Probably the main area of focus that we do specialise in. But we go right through, perform physiological testing on them

through veritimax. Lactate analysis, understanding what is happening with that blood lactate component. A bit of an aero versus anaerobic contribution of things. Break down their data from their testing. So you have a look right through, build out their training zones and then deliver the training off the back of it if they are one of our coached athletes or provide the recommendations onward to their coach, their existing coach. So we’re sort of pretty flexible in that space. But we definitely specialise in the science of performance and particularly endurance performance is where we do most of our work or if not all of our work. And over the past couple of years that you’ve been at METS, are there things there that you’ve come to understand better or that you’ve learnt from working with a lot of athletes over that time doing these different tests?

Yeah, I think the main one is that 85, 90% of endurance athletes are a lot similar to each other than what they probably like to think. There’s a lot of different paths to the same outcome. If you take, I mean, Melbourne Marathon is a good example that we’re doing with a lot of athletes who are training for that at the moment. And there’s a lot of different ways you can go about the training to lead up to a three hour marathon or a sub three marathon, for example. But the interesting thing that we found is 85, 9% of the athletes that come in to CS generally, who are training for the same event, generally display very, very similar traits in their physiology. And so that’s probably the big thing just looking at trends in the data is that you can almost pick before they’ve done the test what’s going to happen based off what type of training they’ve roughly done and what event they’re training for. So we can get a pretty good understanding of,

yeah, they’re probably going to have a regional VO2 max. They’re probably, I mean, it’s gotten to the point now where we can sort of, we can set someone up on a test and pretty much pinpoint where their threshold is going to hit and where their VO2 max is going to hit with a reasonable understanding of just asking them a few questions before the test, just because we say very similar things in physiology across similar types of athletes. We do see some interesting trends, particularly triathletes. The big one is we ideally like to test their bike and their run in separate sessions. So we’ll say very similar VO2 max numbers, but we’ll see quite different heart rate readings, often seven to 10 beats higher on the run compared to the bike. And then we’ll often see something like ventilation, so how much air they’re getting in per minute is generally a little bit higher on the bike compared to the run because their torso is a little bit more stable,

a little bit more relaxed, less likelihood of falling off the trety because they’re on the bike as well. So things like that, we start to see some differences. And also we’ve had a few swimmers come through, a little bit tricky to do a swimming test without one of those sort of endless pools where you can control intensity and pretty sort of complex, comprehensive setup to properly VO2 max swimmers, but we’ve had a few swimmers come through some of the open water guys and obviously our triathletes as well doing a bit of swimming.

And we see some pretty similar things with their heart rate sort of being more aligned with what we see running wise. So if we’re ever prescribing similar sessions in the pool to what we wouldn’t run, so if we’re looking for a long slow swim, for example, we generally work off pretty similar if we’re trying to stick to maybe a heart rate. Again, it’s something difficult to monitor in a swim session, but we sort of relate it pretty closer to that running because we seem to get a pretty reasonably accurate rating. And interestingly enough, some of the swimmers have done rowing tests as well with this, which has been interesting. More of that upper body demand is a little bit more specific. So there are probably some of the key things I’ve probably learnt over the last couple of years working in the field or working in the industry at Metz is just seeing some of those similarities across sports and across types of athletes competing for the same event.

But then being able to take that similarity and use the data from their test to provide that individual difference, I think is the key step that a lot of coach and a lot of athletes sort of misses.

We know how the pros train, but if you want to train and perform better, it may not be the best path for you, if that makes sense. So sort of working through what is the best path based on that trait that we’ve got in the athlete and those subtle differences and it’s the differences in heart rate, subtle differences in lactate readings as well, which is giving us that clear path of where does the athlete need to go. So we may be doing a similar type of session, but we might be tweaking it as a result of the data we get from the test. So that as a whole is probably the biggest thing that I’ve sort of noticed over the last a while. There’s a big crossover there from us running a lot of clinics and working with a lot of athletes over the last couple of years, where I’ve found it’s when looking at stroke and analyzing technique, it’s come down to just it’s pattern recognition. So we look at someone swimming and you just work with so many different people

that you pretty much straight away and go, all right, they’re doing this, they’re doing this, they’re doing this. And then it comes down to giving those individual recommendations based on what, maybe what the athletes beliefs are and their approach to their sport and maybe what type of personality they are, how can you best deliver it that way. And then just those little nuances that are different to each person. And yeah, across the board, there’s usually the same two or three common mistakes that you’re seeing in technique. And then there’s probably some similar things with how they’re training. And is there any common things that you see with how endurance athletes are training that you get them to adjust or correct any common mistakes there? Yeah, just before I go into that, 100% agree with what you’re saying, it’s pattern recognition.

We say the same thing that’s just making those tweaks. And I guess in terms of the common things that we see and that we do make those tweaks on, a lot of probably the one big session that I mean, we’re happy to sort of give the session away because a lot of it comes from just any sort of literature and research paper you read on trying to improve things like VO2 max and aerobic power. It’s one of the go-tos. But in terms of a session that we often don’t see athletes do, and it’s really clear when we see the data in in terms of their ability to use oxygen, their aerobic power. So their ability to use oxygen quickly, if you like, at the back end of a test when they’re working hard at those high intensities is a really simple high intensity session where you’re pretty much going flat out nine, nine and a half out of 10 intensity. We equate it to 95% of your velocity or your workload at max. And you’re just working off a one-to-one work-to-rest ratio, two minutes on and you get

a two-minute walking recovery or a two-minute very easy recovery. And just working through that sort of six, seven, eight times throughout the session. It’s a really simple session and super high intensity. There’s lots of rest. We just don’t see a lot of athletes do. A lot of athletes, particularly in triathlon running and cycling, we generally see a lot of that sort of in and around threshold. So I guess race pace gets thrown around a lot that term. I’ve never been a big fan of athletes just working off. I went out and did 40 minutes of race pace today. For me, from a numbers perspective, there’s no metric to that.

What is race pace? It’s so broad and vague. But in terms of we see a lot of that going out and going reasonably hard for a period of time and having short recoveries and trying to back it up again, which has a time and place. And that time and place is very specific to racing, but the adaptation from that plateaus really quickly. So we see athletes can get generally pretty, I guess, race fit, if you want to call it, or primed specific for the race within about six to eight weeks of when their event is. Any time before that, if they keep chipping away, eventually going to plateau and plateau pretty hard. Apart from anything else, those types of sessions where we’re working, let’s say you’re working half a 10, you’re on for 10 minutes at sort of an eight out of 10 intensity if we’re using RPA, but working thereabouts at threshold, working pretty hard. You have half the recovery, so five minute recovery, you go again.

It’s lactic in, lactic out partially, but then it comes back in again. And we’re just sort of buffering in and worrying about tolerating that like the asset, which a lot of athletes are really good at because when we race, that’s what we have to do. So if you’ve got a stacked race schedule, you’re already pretty, pretty good at and translate to notorious for it. You’re racing every month if you’re racing to XU series, or you’re racing every three months if you’re racing sort of 70.3 sort of distance. So there’s always something going on to build that. Whereas we often miss that moving the top end of your engine, which is going to give you an extra ability to improve that threshold. So I guess an easy way to think about it is if you’ve got a V6 engine at the moment, you can only fit six cylinders into that engine. If you think about cylinders being where your threshold fits in and the engine being your overall performance

ability, if you can only fit six cylinders in, that might be the difference for a triathlete or I can only push that threshold. I can only get up to about four minutes per k or for a swimming example, maybe I can only hold 90 second hundreds over the course of my 1500 meter swim because the top end of my engine is not much far above it. I’ve got nowhere to move. Once you hit max, you can exceed max, but only in very short bouts. I mean, we’re talking swimming terms. It’s like if you go flat out for 50 meters, yeah, you can sprint, but you’re not going to have to sustain that pace forever. So the difference being, if we can move that top end by doing some of that really high intensity, what we call VO2 interval work is you extend the size of the engine. Now we’ve got the capacity and ability to fit more cylinders in if you like. So go from a V6 to a V8. V8 engine now we’ve got six cylinders to play with. A V8 engine on six cylinders is going to be more powerful than a

V6 on six. You’ve got that bigger size engine. You’re using more oxygen. It’s just an easy tweak, I guess, to the interval sessions that we’re doing is we’re making them harder with intensity, but we’re actually giving athletes more rest. So I think that’s the thing that gets a lot of them is I’m not necessarily feeling at the end of the session like I’ve worked harder than I have previously. You’ve been going harder in those intervals, but you’ve had plenty of recovery to be able to allow you to sustain that quality of interval. So again, that’s probably the biggest tweak we make is just making athletes more aware of if we can increase the size of the engine to start with. You’ve got more to play with. You don’t have to worry about, well, I’m only looking at one or two percent. For some athletes, it’s the case of, and I’ve had this sort of early last year, had a cyclist come and see me and he came in, tested, then tested three or four months later, went away and just did,

all he did was really long, slow base case and he did some really high intensity, these VO2 style intervals. His FTP went up by 30 watts and he hadn’t actually targeted a threshold type session. He’d give himself heaps of recovery in those really high intensity bouts but made them quality efforts and then he just did lots of really long, slow, comfortable work. What happened was his VO2 max improved by about 10, 12 percent and that allowed him to drag up his FTP with it. He ended up maxing in the test. I think it was, I’m going to get numbers wrong, but let’s say if he maxed out at 300 watts in the first test, the second test was 330, he finished the test. What it meant for his FTP was it was the same relative percentage of his engine, but his engine was bigger. So his FTP came up too and it was by about sort of 30 watts. So that’s where we can see some improvement by working around it and looking at

where are you sort of weak at the moment. If your ability is actually at the top end and your engine size isn’t great overall, your percentage of that that you can hold in a race isn’t going to be much lesser than that max. You’ve only got probably one or two percent to chase. Why not chase 10, 15 percent in changing the size of your engine completely? Because now it’s got the capacity to work through more. So I guess that’s probably the big one.

The other one as well is just overdoing the volume. We often get perceived from the outside. We like to laugh about it a bit. We often get perceived from the outside as being sort of anti-volume training. We definitely not. Again, time and place, whether it fit in and how much do you need. But it’s more of a case of when we’ve got athletes who are training for, let’s say a 70.3 where they’re only going to be expected to run for maybe 90 minutes to two hours for the average age group. If they’re going out and doing a four hour run, we just sort of look at that and go, there’s not much method to the madness really. There’s not much going on there. That’s useful. Minimal effective doses is the principle we abide by. So I guess the minimum amount of quality training we can do for the maximum benefit allow you to recover more and sort of tick multiple boxes off as opposed to I’m just doing k’s because everyone else is sort of doing k’s and doing crazy distances. Sometimes that’s not the answer.

It looks good on Strava. Yeah, go out and do a 200k ride, but sometimes it’s not the right way to go about it, which you’re at higher risk for injury, etc. So they’re probably a two major things. Yeah, that’s definitely a lot of crossover with what I’ve seen. And I think the other thing that plays a part of that is wider people either do the long distances without maybe the planning behind it or the reason why behind it, or why aren’t they doing those high intensity efforts with a lot more rest in between. And a big part of that, and I’ve even fallen into this trap when I’ve done distance training for sort of longer distance swims and even triathlon, it’s like, you know, you you all you want to try and do is just just push yourself and push yourself and keep, you know, keep it that sort of race pace or threshold pace and just and you feel like if you take too much rest, then you’re losing the benefits there. But sometimes if you take that

step back and you actually give yourself some time to get the heart rate down, you can keep the quality of quality of your technique up if it’s in the pool, but also keep the intensity up at that higher level, then you really see a see a difference. And an example that that I’ll give is one of our athletes who does a full up filming in Melbourne pretty regularly. He said he’s he’s just started to plateau with his swim time. So I asked him what what’s he doing with his training sessions, because his technique has improved a lot over the last I think it’s been nine months. And, you know, there’s there’s definitely some tweaks we can still make, but I was curious as to what he’s doing in his workouts and most sessions, he’ll get in the water, go through a K time trial, just off the bat, and then do maybe another eight, I don’t know, eight to 1200 meters, where it might be some sort of interval work, but all pretty much at the same speed. So you look at that and go sweet, there is a lot of

room available there to break out of that plateau, swim, you know, really increase your swim speed, and build that engine by just changing what you’re doing in your workout. So it’s a really big component of getting faster. And there’s so many different things you can look at. And especially for swimming, obviously, we’re focused heavily on technique, but workouts is definitely one of those. And then there’s mobility and things as well. But, you know, when you when you move these levers in all these different areas, that’s when you really start to see these 1% improvements start to to add up. So I think that’s yeah, really interesting. We definitely see that that same thing with the type of training that the people are doing. Yeah, and it’s a it’s a case as well. And again, we see it a lot with athletes who bang their head against the wall going, why aren’t I getting faster? But like you said, the head goes, they jump in the

pool and they do a one K time trial at the same pace every session. That’s going to get you really good at it. And like, oh, you’re running running terms, it’s easy to tell them head. But if you want to go out and run four minute case, and you just all you do is running four minute case, you get really good at four minute case. But if you want to run at 345s, you have to practice it. And this is where just taking things to the next level is you got to if we if you go out of three want to run at 345 to get better at it, if you can go out and run short efforts at 330 pace and get better at those, yes, you’re giving yourself rest. But it gives you that ability to go, hey, 345 isn’t so bad. And it’s the same in the pool. If you if you’re swimming, and I know a lot of guys and you probably see us a lot, a lot of our guys that the triathletes come in CSU, that they can’t break through 140, 145 per 100. And they’re really

trying to get down to sort of 90, I guess 90 seconds from sort of what what we’ve seen over the last little while is, is I guess a bit of a magical barrier for a lot of people, they want to get down to a 90 second 100. But they can’t get down there. And I asked him, well, what are you what are you doing in your training? Are you doing anything to teach your body to go that next level fast? Yeah, you don’t, you don’t have to sustain it. And that’s the key, you don’t have to necessarily go and swim a 120 100 all the time. But if you can swim that sort of 120 pace for 50 75 meters, that 190 is now looking a little bit more achievable.

So it’s just, yeah, changing I guess changing mindset a bit. And like anything, if you do it again and again, again, you get really good at it. But at some point, you need to challenge yourself to go that next level and do something different to to provide that. Yeah, next challenge and move up if it’s pace, if it’s holding a pace for a greater distance, like what, why do we overload? Why do we go from one K, one K in the pool to 1.25 to 1500 meters to two K? Why do we progress the other way? Because it’s progressively challenging us to go to a little bit further distance, a little bit further. So when we get to race day, where we’re able to handle it, it’s exactly the same. It’s just not often sort of looked at when it comes to how do we do the same for pace? Yeah, that’s it. And one of the things that I try and get athletes that I coach to do is just, if they’re not already, just do some variable pace

swimming where that’s an example of there’s a young kid that lives pretty close to me. I coach him every now and then and do some training with him. And he’s never done that much work towards training for his 400. So he doesn’t know how to pace himself. And he, in terms of his speed, his awareness around what pace he’s going, isn’t, isn’t as good as it could be. So a session that we did the other day was, I’ve got to think back to it, but I think it was, it was 10, 100s twice through. So it was 2100s. And we worked off his goal 400 meter pace. So I think his sort of target pace was a 109 for the 400. But I think he’ll actually be quicker than that because of how he was swimming. But we basically started off at 400 pace, plus 15 seconds. So 109 plus 15. So going for 124. And then we, I think we went plus, no, it was at 16. So plus 16, plus 14, plus 12. And then I think we went plus, plus 10. Then we had

a recovery 100. Then we went down to, yeah, plus eight, plus six, then recovery. And then we went to plus four recovery, plus two recovery. And then I think one at 400 pace or maybe two at 400 pace, something along those lines. And, and he was the first set, he was way off the mark. He went out at plus eight. And, and then kind of went plus eight, plus eight, plus seven and just didn’t quite have it. The second set, he almost hit it every time. And we did a similar set yesterday. And he was spot on. So just, yeah, it doesn’t take a lot to give you that awareness around what your pace is. And especially for swimming, when you don’t necessarily get to see what time you are doing, then that is such an important skill to have. So just throwing a simple set, like that in can help you and same for running, you know, it can just help you get a sense. And that’s one of the issues I have with wearing the watches so often is, you know, in running,

I don’t mind it, but especially in the pool, I’m kind of, I’m against wearing the watches. I think if you can read your pace off the clock, you’re so much better off because then you’re not distracted by your watch beeping. And, you know, you just, when I’ve worn it in training, I just, my technique isn’t as good. My stroke isn’t as good. And I’m not as aware of those other things and that sort of sense of pace and feeling in my body. I just, I lose that because of the distraction of the watch. So I’m a big fan of swimming without, without the watch and just using the pace clock to, to go, you know, to know what times you’re doing. And I think that’s, that’s something that a lot of athletes fall into the trap of. And again, probably another misconception of, of where, from the outside into, to what we do at Mets is, is we are very numbers, you know, we are in, in some circumstances and with, with training

zones and that, but you’re dead right. If you can’t, if you can’t understand what pace your body’s going at without having to be glued to looking at a screen to tell you what you’re doing. Something’s missing. You’re not, you’re going to struggle on race day. I can, I can guarantee it because yeah, I don’t, I don’t get any, I don’t get EMI guys to, to look at their watch during a session. I like to have them record the data and that’s probably about it purely from a fact that I just want to see post session. If I’m not able to be there with them, which a lot of our, a lot of our guys unfortunately can’t, we can’t be there every session with them. But just to be able to see what they did in the session and allow us to monitor fatigue, et cetera. But yeah, you’re, I’m exactly the same. I jump in the pool and yeah, I grew up swimming without a watch. And I only wear it now purely for the purpose of recording data. And then just

to get used to it for, for race day racing tries where I’ve got it for pace and, pace and wattage and heart rate on the bike and bike in the run. So saves me a bit of time and transition trying to chuck it on. But ideally, yeah, not really like to wear in the swim because yeah, if you pace clocks aren’t too bad to read, but if you can, if you can understand, understand what your body feels like at given intensities, that’s, that’s hugely powerful. And transfers to running and cycling as well. If you don’t have to look at a screen to tell you what intensity it is, if you can be pretty close and have a pretty good idea. I’ve seen, in stuff I’ve seen over the last two years anyway, the best athletes that have come in and say to us have been able to tell us pretty much exactly what, what their heart rate should be doing at different intensities. Even as it’s breaking down, like they’re running on the treadmill at, let’s say four, a four minute car, the four 17s. And they say, Oh, what’s heart rate?

And they can, they can pretty much recall heart rate, to be honest, they can tell us it should be about 165 170 beats at whatever pace. And sure enough, it’s within about two beats of what they’re telling us. Maybe not to that level. I mean, that’s probably at the extreme end where you can, you can really knock them down and identify it, but just going out and being able to understand pace on your own without some of these technologies is extremely useful and shouldn’t be, shouldn’t be left behind. At the same time, you’ve got to balance it though with, and this is where just recording the data and having a look at it from analysis point, point of view later on is where data is useful and understanding how, what happened in that session and how it can improve. And I guess even sort of looking from a swimming perspective and you probably touch on more of this is, I’m sure you, with some of you guys, you’re coaching,

you’re using stopwatches and things like that. At the end of the day, it’s still recording, recording data and having a look, it’s just giving, you’re just taking that watch element away. So

it gives you that benchmark to look at and go, all right, what do we need to do next session to improve? And it gives you a baseline to then measure against is probably the big thing. But you can’t, can’t underestimate how, how powerful it is to, to understand what your body’s doing at different intensities and how you’re going to handle it. Yeah, that, that baseline and measuring what, measuring where you’re at and what you’re doing is, is crucial. An example of that is I just had my guy Michael Andrew on the podcast in the previous one actually. And he’s a, he’s a professional swim in the States and he, the, the two types of training he does. So the morning sessions are what’s called ultra short race pace training, which is basically

going at a specific, specific race pace, kind of self-explanatory with, with about 15 seconds rest in between. And you’re looking to hit your, your, your race pace in every 25 or every 50 that you’re doing. And if you don’t, so basically if you fail three times, or if you went the first time you fail, you will sit out that next interval. So you’ll take an extra, maybe 45 seconds, then you’ll go the next one. And then if you fail three times, then you just stop the set. So it’s, it’s been really specific with what, what pace you’re doing and,

and making sure that you’ve got those times every, every single time there. And he’s, and he records all of these 25s, all these 50s every session. And he’s, I think he’s got that data from years back. And so the way that they, well he and his coach is, that is his coach, the way they kind of determine how he’s going and if he’s improving is by, they can look back at this data from, from many, many years. And they can see this improvement from when he was a 14 year old kid to now he’s, I think he’s about 19. And the other way that they continue to improve is not just in slowly changing how hard these workouts are and how many of the intervals they’re doing, but the technique side of things that constantly using the go pros and cameras to record, make small adjustments to how he’s working his underwaters. And, and with those two things together and, and knowing what numbers they’re looking for and trying to achieve,

they’ve been very calculated with how he’s been able to improve over the last sort of 10 years since he’s been swimming. And yeah, and like that’s, that’s an extreme end of things for the average person. That’s, that’s not going to happen. But just kind of knowing roughly what, what pace is, you know, you should be doing at what heart rates and so on. That’s, that’s when you actually know whether you’re getting better or not. And that’s not only good for how you’re knowing how you’re training, but I think from a motivation perspective, when you see those little improvements come drives you on to do the, you know, the next bit of training. Yeah, absolutely. I always look at a perspective data is there to help you and assist. And if it’s, if it’s not providing any, anything more useful than what you’re already doing, there’s no point in using it. But if it is, if it is there giving you, I say, if it’s something to

motivate you to hit particular paces, but then also show that clear, clear sign of progression, or if you’re regressing and going the opposite direction, if you’re plateauing a bit, you’re going to know through, through monitoring data over a period of time, if it’s there and it’s useful and it’s implemented correctly, that’s where it’s super powerful. And that’s where I think a lot of probably more of the old school, old school coach or old school athlete sort of freak out a bit when I see all this technology and data and go, oh, there’s just all these numbers and it’s, it’s almost overwhelming. It’s, and even from our perspective, I mean, we use training peaks to, to analyze and have a look at, have a look at data and that and completely, I don’t look at half of the metrics on there because even then, from a sports science perspective, there’s just too many numbers sometimes that,

but like, is it, is it doing anything, is it doing anything useful to assist me in helping an athlete or is it useful for an athlete to know? Yes, I know if it ticks the yes box, then great, we’ll, we’ll talk about, we’ll implement it. If it’s no, I’m not even concerned.

And that’s where it’s going to change as we, as we go. We’ve got new technology coming out. I think a little, a little while ago, I think you guys had some like swim paddles that are going to be measuring that power and things like that, that you were getting guys to trial out. But a whole bunch of, a whole bunch of different technology and data that we can, we can use. And that’s, that’s just the reality of endurance sport is getting very tech focused and, and trying to, trying to nail down the one and two percent little differences, particularly elite level. But for, for some people at the amateur age group level, some of those one or two percent differences for a pro could mean 10, 15 percent. It’s just finding out which ones, again, are going to be useful. I mean, the easy one is by technology for triathletes. Talking to some of the guys who, who know a fair bit or two about, about bike fitting and bike

time trial position aerodynamics, the difference between frames and what companies say is the most aerodynamic frame really honestly isn’t a lot for, for the average person. It’s not really going to gain too much, but being aware of your position on the bike and being able to sustain it and learn how to hold a quality position and then doing the training to, to condition yourself, to, to power that bike is far more important. So if the data can help you from that perspective and get you in a comfortable and, and powerful position and looking at things like, like I said, with using go pros in the pool and, and that to assist the technique side of things or the technical side of things. And then from a conditioning point of view, yeah, making sure you’re hitting, hitting heart rates that or, or paces that are going to provide that positive adaptation, you’re not just doing the same thing again and again and again.

That’s where data is going to be, or data reads, it’s most effective and that’s where it has its place. Being, being a slave to it and just being stuck on it and going, I’m just looking, I have to look at my watch every five, 10 seconds because I’m almost paranoid about, I’m going to not get my intensity or not be holding the right heart rate is, is definitely not the right way to go about it at all. And one metric that I can’t, that I just can’t stand looking at is on the, on the swim watches with the, the swell score that it’s really, it’s really inaccurate and it doesn’t mean a thing. So I just like, I just, I just, whenever someone asked me about it, they’re like, Oh, this is my swell score. This is kind of how it’s, how it’s been going. Don’t worry about it. It is super inaccurate. So just ignore that one because there’s a time and place for looking at how many strokes you’re taking and, and the pace as well. But it’s just, yeah, I don’t know. I’ve just sort of moved,

I’ve moved a long way away from that. And, and when the numbers inaccurate, well, the data doesn’t really mean anything anyway, because that one of the reasons it’s inaccurate is because let’s say you watch on your right hand and you take a stroke with your left hand first. I don’t think it registers that. And then like, you know, same with what hand you finish on. So the numbers just don’t, don’t mean anything. So just ignore that. And, and I find it’s just a distraction. So yeah, the same thing with, with when we’re running clinics and working with swimmers is look at it from the macro perspective, like people often ask questions that are too micro focused, and they’re not looking at the bigger picture picture. Yeah. And what’s really going to contribute to them swing fast from the next six to 12 months. So yeah, don’t be too concerned with the minute details of your, of your stroke, where, you know, there’s, there’s just so much more opportunity available there. So

I think you’re from, from your perspective as well, it sounds like that, right, you get your, you do your tests, your VO2 maximum, do your lactate testing, do your tests, you get that data. And then once we’ve got that data, we just want to use that in our, in our training and then just kind of, you know, forget about that for now and just go about your training. You want to keep it really simple. It’s so easy to get tied up on things. Yeah, 100%. And like I said before, it’s a case of, I mean, if you go out and do a run and I say it to guys all the time, it’s not the end of the world. If we’re going out and trying to do a long slow run, you’re trying to hold a heart rate of 140 to 150 beats per minute. It’s not the end of the world. If your heart rate goes up to 155, start to back off. And obviously, as best you can, we want to try and keep that heart rate within that zone. But it’s not the end of the world. If you happen to be like running slow on a particular day or

those days are going to happen. But at the same time, the difference between like, and it’s the one, it’s the athletes who get caught up on, like, I was, I was one second per K slower. The difference between, the difference between that is so minute that it’s not going to make, it’s not going to make or break your training. And if it’s, and if there happens to be a session where I’m 10 or 15 seconds per K slower, if it’s one isolated session, what was the, one, what was the reason for it? Was it fatigue induced? Was it you had a stressful day at work and you’re just not motivated for the session so you just couldn’t push enough? We can pinpoint the reasoning and then we can try and eliminate that for the future and avoid it. But one session isn’t going to make or break your four, five, six month prep for some of the guys doing Ironman are probably training for six to eight months prior. One session isn’t going

to make or break it. An accumulation of those will. So not being caught up in, yeah, like you said, minute details of the tiny little things in snapshots of time. It’s, how does this fit into the whole big picture? And I guess from our perspective, it’s looking at your big picture training program or training plan for, for a key race, key event and going, well, I missed, missed three sessions this week because, because I got sick, but I just wouldn’t have been able to get out and do it. It’s like, should I, I get a question all the time, should I make up a session when I’m feeling good? Often, more often than not, I turn around to athletes and say, absolutely not because all you’re going to do is just put yourself back into that, that cycle of either overtake yourself and then you’ll get sick again or, or you just won’t fully recover from your sickness because you’ll try and go, go back into it too soon. But yeah, if you miss,

if you miss a session or two, six months out, it’s not going to have any impact on, on your race result at all. If you’re missing six weeks of training, different story. And again, big, big picture. It’s like, well, what percentage is one, one hour swim? What percentage of that is out of a six month Ironman training program where potentially athletes doing anywhere between 16 and 20 hours a week, what percentage of that total training volume over that six months? Are you actually missing by missing that session or, or not quite nailing that session? It’s less than like, you’re talking less than 1%. When it accumulates, again, so big picture is, is where you have the issues. But yeah, I couldn’t agree with you completely on that one. It’s, you got to, you got to think what, what’s biggest bang for buck? What’s going to, and again, coming back to the principle of like what we use with minimal effective dose, what training sessions are going to mean that potentially some

athletes for, for 70.3 and like some of our guys looking at their big picture, some of them are 50, 55 years of age work, they still work reasonably full time or close to it, just can’t get out 15, 17 hours of training a week for a 70.3. What’s going to give them the biggest return, big picture in terms of their overall health, their injury, risk, but then also what’s going to give them a best race result by only training sort of 10, 12 hours a week. How can we get the same, same big return? Look at, all right, if I have to pick and choose the absolute critical parts, what are they? That’s the same with technique. What’s, what are the big critical parts to, to swim technique? And we saw our chat about this the other week, it’s just like, well, there’s a whole bunch of things that you could look at. But if your body’s not sitting in the right position to start with, or you’re not aligned, that’s a big issue that we need to fix. Take the big ticket items off first.

Once you’ve got through all that, sure, go for the, the 1% is, and that’s when we start talking about, I mean, from our end, it’s, you really at that point, you want to be first or second in your category in your age group, qualifying for world champs. And it’s the difference between you making a championship to new not, or at the pro end of the spectrum where like prize money’s on the line, and it’s, if I’m not 1% better or half a percent better on race day, that’s going to make or break whether I can continue racing. That season as a pro and sustain it. So that’s the, that’s where it becomes important, those minor details right at that pointy end. But for the vast majority of athletes, particularly athletes we see, it’s such a, from our, and we look at it go, there’s such simple big picture fixes that once you explain it, you can sort of, I guess, education from the big parts, once you can educate the athlete on

how this does fit into the big picture and how we can, we can change quite simple things to produce big results. That’s the powerful part of it. I was just talking to, to Wayne Goldsmith, and he’s kind of a, almost a consultant to a lot of different sports on how to keep kids in sport. And we’re just talking about the, with younger kids, that there’s a big focus on just getting them to do the laps and like, and he, he, he reckons swimming is, is the, is the least, can be the least fun sport for kids because if they’re, can have two hours in the pool and it might just be grinding it out day after day. It’s early mornings. Don’t really get to chat with your friends when you’re doing it. So compare that to say soccer, for example, where even if you are training three hours a day, you still get to chat with your friends and it’s a team sport. So what can you do, what can coaches do to keep kids in sport? And it doesn’t matter if a kid’s got this awesome aerobic base from 12 to

16 years of age, and he’s got this great VO2 max. If you’re sitting at home at 17 playing Fortnite, because the only kid you can’t, you know, the only person you can’t get to get to do anything is the person who’s quit the sport. So what can you do to keep it fun? And I think even from a you know, adult sort of, they typically do the things they want to be doing. So it’s a bit of a different story. But if you’re not having fun and you’re not enjoying yourself, then you’ve lost already. So do those things that you enjoy and don’t get too caught up in things. If it makes you anxious, if it causes you to stress over these little things, just you know, you’ve only got the one life. So you want to live it, you want to enjoy it. And I think that’s why I think it’s important not to get to use the data, but don’t get too caught up in it. And having someone like, so yeah, you will look there to, so this is what I want you to do. Now go out and do it, try and hit this heart rate.

But you know, leave the rest to you, leave the stress to you or looking deeply into it. Yeah. And like just to touch any point about the like youth and sport, and I guess that’s

people often go, oh yeah, so like there’s these kids, I like pathway stuff and specialization. And you see it in adults too. The number of guys I’ve got who’ve trained for Ironman who go, nah, you know what, I don’t want to swim and ride for the next three months. I’m going to go and just do a marathon. And I’m just going to run for a bit because I need something different. Like variety in what you do is so critical. And it seems sort of ironic that a sport where you’ve got a sport where you’ve got three sports within it, someone needs a bit of variety or a shake up, it still can happen because going out and doing, I have to swim most of them are pretty routine. So I have to swim on a Monday, then I have to ride Tuesday and I’m going to run Wednesday.

Breaking out that routine doing something completely different and just for just focusing on one can be enough. But then yeah, at a youth level or at a kid’s level with sport, I did a paper on it for my undergrad at uni in terms of earlier area of specialization in kids. And it’s just, even from the fact of, yeah, staying in the sport is one thing and trying to retain kids. And you’d know through swimming as well. And we had this issue when I was at a big center is trying to retain good swimmers who just, yeah, their friends are doing other things. They want to go try other sports, but the commitment for swimming is too high. And if they’re not swimming six times a week or seven times a week, the perception is they’re not going to be any good and they’re not going to make teams and things like that. So they just quit quickly. But all the research from everywhere around the world, and I did a lot of, I did a lot of my looking into what makes the

professional, what types of athletes or what kids end up becoming professional in the states, given that their population is so massive and they’ve got so many kids competing at such an elite level so early, what percentage of the kids who are gone in high school actually make it to NBA, NFL, professional leagues, Olympic games, etc. And it was all the kids who specialized early and just did the one sport from a young age, played baseball, basketball, swimming all year round. That’s all they did. Blew up in college and really very rarely made it to the pros. I think it was something like 0.14% of all professional athletes in the states as of when the study was done were kids who’d specialized all the way through. Everyone else had come from a multi-sport background, so they’d played, like if we’re talking in terms of Australian, they’d swum, they’d go and play footy with their mates on the weekend, but then they also,

they’re involved in the school basketball team. They do different sports.

And it was that variety that one builds skills across each. And it’s the same transference between, like if you want to try a perfect example is

the requirements and core strength and ability to control your upper body through your core into your lower body and up and down the chain. That coordination aspect can’t be underestimated from what you achieve in swimming, but then also the transfer of that coordination onto how you lock down your upper body to then drive off the lower body on the bike and then how you then not allow that upper body to rotate too much when you’re running and allow the legs to do their thing as well. So it’s that transference aspect that gets sort of lost in, oh, if we need to be good at something, we need to practice that more and just focus on it. It’s like, particularly at a young age, it just doesn’t work. But even at the adult level, I see it, particularly some of my older guys who are sort of coming either late into the sport or have been in the sport for a number of years and start to think about, well, they start to wrap things up in their working lives and that with retirement,

that. So they’re trying to look at different things they can do. I’ve got guys who never touched mountain bikes before now going and racing cross-try because it’s something different. They would never have ridden through a puddle of mud in their lives and now they’re splashing around on a mountain bike in an off-road triathlon race. I mean, something like that, it changes it completely. Yes, it’s still cycling, but now you’re having to you’re dodging through a single track and hit some rocks and things like that. It just breaks open the sport a bit, gives you a new set of skills. And when they then come back and race, one, they’re mentally fresher, but also two, they’ve developed a whole bunch of different, in that exact example, bike control skills that they may not have had that are probably going to help them out when they’re on the road anyway. So, yeah, I’ve always been a big one for particularly youth athletes, but overall, if you’ve got some sort of variety, you’ve got some sort of

outlet other than the sport that you’re competing in, great. If you can’t get that in during the season and you really want to focus on your sport off season, you have to be doing something different. Yeah, so parents just keep the taxi service going and drive the kids around to multiple sports as they’re growing up. And you look at someone like Carl Charm as the 100 freestyle Olympic gold medalist. He could still play AFL 40. Yeah, exactly. And I think not only obviously that, that experience as a, as a footy player is good for him in terms of his physical development, but I think mentally as well, it’s kind of, to me, without knowing him, to me, it seems like because he could still play AFL 40, and he might very well do it, that when it comes to pressure in competing at a very high level, it just seems like it doesn’t affect him nearly as much as it does other swimmers. You look at Kay Campbell, for example,

who, yeah, who’s kind of buckled under that pressure. Yeah, James Magnussen as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whereas he’s kind of got almost an out, whereas he knows he’s got options there. So I just, I don’t think it affects him mentally as much. So it’s good for that side of things too. Yeah, absolutely. It’s just, yeah, it takes the pressure off because you go, well, if it doesn’t turn out here, and it may not be, you don’t, like, you don’t necessarily have to be a gun. Like, he’s probably an exceptional example where, yeah, he could be a professional athlete in a different sport. And you still say it. I mean, you have a look at someone like Elise Perry, and he’s playing, who was for a while playing cricket for Australia, and then soccer for Australia, and just about everything for Australia at one point in time.

But like, though, you have absolutely, absolute gun cricketer, but also still a gun soccer player, and maybe not the best at soccer. And that’s probably why she ended up transferring and spending 100% of her time in cricket now, but, and because of scheduling classes, et cetera. But it’s not, yeah, we’re not saying you have to go out and be a pro at all sports. Like, you can still have one as your main one. But it’s handy to still have those backups to give you something else, stay, stay mentally ready to go. But yeah, it takes the pressure off because at the end of the day, if you don’t perform well, it’s like, well, if you decide later on, maybe this isn’t for me, you’ve got something else sitting there ready to go. Whereas if you, if you’ve only got one sport, the perfect example is Lionel Sanders and triathlon. Just if anyone’s watched any of his stuff on YouTube, he’s like, he’s so intense about what he does. And he sort of admits that as well, he gets right into it and just

can’t sort of deviate from it. And I reckon that’s what hurts him in the end, because he just, he just tries almost too hard to make it work going, well, if he wasn’t racing Ironman Triathlon, what would he be doing? And I know from the outside, it’s sort of easy to say, I don’t really know what he’d be doing. But he potentially couldn’t answer that question. And I think that’s a big thing that if athletes can’t answer that question of, if you, if you tomorrow couldn’t, couldn’t compete. And actually, it just reminds me of a quote of my junior footy coach used to say it, he, and it’s sort of a bit of a bit of an extreme example, but he, I remember he used to say in, in games that sort of meant a bit,

he would just say before the game, if you, if you were by the end of this game, if you ended up, like if you, if you got a concussion or you broke your leg or something and you could never play footy again, would you one be happy with your performance throughout one the season, but to that game? But then two, what would you do? Because he always was a big advocate. He came from PA teaching background of, of go and try other things because it’s going to help your performance on field and footy. Go and do, if you want, if you’re like cross country running, go and do that because your aerobic fitness is going to help you be a better midfielder or go play soccer because, or basketball because now your hand eye coordination, your foot eye coordination is, is a lot more, a lot more in tune. That was an interesting thing that sort of stuck with me in terms of you have a look at that some of these pro athletes at the top

level that potentially that sport is all they’ve got. No wonder you see them sort of crumble once they leave that sport or something goes wrong because there isn’t anything else to take up that attention. So you can almost sort of prevent that a bit. And I think from a coaching side of things, that’s sort of our, our role as well to help drive that and prevent some of those, those downfall or potential downfalls later on. But the variety, the variety in what you do is going to help your performance in your sport at the time anyway, but also it’s potentially going to give you something post, post racing, post career. Once you sort of decide that maybe you’ve had enough, it gives you something to go away, focus on. And maybe you do then reinvent yourself. Plenty of examples of athletes who, I mean, Cam, Cam Werth in triathlon now, the gun

absolute gun is killing racers at the moment, but didn’t quite make it as a pro cyclist. So he turned to triathlon and now he’s the fastest bike on the course. I mean, that, that’s a perfect example. Probably years ago, I didn’t think he was probably going to enter triathlon at the level he’s racing at now, but having a bit of that ability to transfer across to another sport quite easily and work with components, give him a new challenge was something that’s, it’s helping him be probably more successful than he potentially could have been if he stayed in cycling. It’s very easy to get caught just playing in the same, playing in the same field or just kind of get caught doing the same thing because we think that we can’t go out and do different things or we feel like they’ll be too far behind. But I’ve just, I’ve just taken up mountain biking and not competing or anything, but just riding. I haven’t been on my road bike

for three years since doing Ironman, but I bought a mountain bike and it is so much fun. And now I’m considering maybe getting back on the road bike, but we’ll wait and see. But yeah, it’s just like doing those new things. There’s so much opportunity available to get better at it that if you’re at the top end of your sport, those little 1% improvements are harder to make. Whereas with something new, it’s okay to suck at something. And you’re always going to suck at something the first couple of times you do it, even the first couple of years you do it, but there’s so much room for improving. And that’s what I’m getting a lot of enjoyment out of. And I can’t, like going around berms, so kind of going around corners, like I can hardly do that properly. Like I’m just starting to get the cornering right. It’s like such a basic thing.

But what I’ve actually taken from that, not just the exercise side of it, but I’m thinking of, all right, I’m trying to teach myself how to go around these corners and make sure that my correct foot is down. I’m kind of leaning into the corner the right way and lowering that center of gravity. And I’m translating that into how I coach people and what people are probably going through in swimming when they’re trying to learn as well. And it’s like, you think there’s things to do in swimming and you think it’s just some basic movement. Like it can’t be that confusing, but trying to just go around a berm on my mountain bike, I’m like, all right, it’s pretty confusing. And you’ve got to give people enough time to just repeat it and continue to make these little improvements along the way. So there’s a lot you can learn from doing something new. Yeah, absolutely. And even spot on with from a coach’s perspective, it’s like,

I know, I know training sessions and riding programs inside and out, but racing, racing that program or training off that program, I’m still, I’m still learning. I mean, not being like, I’m only 22 at the moment. So in terms of my race experience is pretty limited compared to a lot of guys, which is exactly why, like, I guess my challenge if you’re like, you’re taking up mountain bike, mountain bike, my challenge at the moment is I’ve signed myself up for busso 70.3 at the end of the year, mostly from the fact of putting myself through it and going, all right, how are athletes potentially actually feeling through some of these sessions? I know that they’re hard. I know that some of them are difficult. I know the science. I definitely know the science behind it. And you know, exactly why I’m giving it to them. But what is that person actually going through in that session? And more importantly, what is that

person actually going through in that race? What does it feel like when you get 18Ks into a 21K run of a half Ironman and you’ve got nothing left? Not that I hope I get to that point, and I hope I have a good race. But in terms of it, in terms of that, I mean, I think from a, if we’re now talking, flipping it the other way and talking to coaches, I think I can’t stress enough that sort of, I guess, practice what you preach, but then also, yeah, look to look to other opportunities to take, take out a way of teaching or a way of coaching

a particular skill and understand how it’s done somewhere else to then maybe apply it back.

And that’s probably the, I probably really enjoy the most about working in maths is we don’t just see like, we’re not just triathlon or we’re not just swimming, we’re not just cycling, we’re, we’re endurance as a whole. So looking at, particularly for the tri guys, they’re always wanting to know, all right, how can I get faster on the bike? So I instantly look at, well, what are the guys on the gun cyclists doing that I’ve seen come in? What are they doing? What are they doing in time trials? What are they doing position wise? How are they best training to, to adapt their physiology? Cool. We’ll start to apply those principles across. What are some of our gun marathon runners doing that we could maybe apply to some of our Ironman athletes who are having to run a marathon on dead legs? From a nutrition standpoint, how are some of the guys in triathlon dealing with nutrition over the course of a day?

So someone who’s riding their first 400, 500K ride, or doing like around the Bay type event, where they’re going to be out there all day for the first time, how can they manage nutrition in a way that maybe we can learn from triathlon? So that, that transference of skills across to then see things in a, in a different way. And then remembering that as a coach or from our coach’s side of things, remembering that it seems so easy to us because we’re the expert on it. I think that’s the big thing. It seems so easy that, all right, I know how to change technique or I know how to change that training session, adjust it. Trying to explain that to someone else. And I’ve fallen in this trap with, like we’ve got a bunch of sports science interns working with us at the moment, who were second year at that degree. Every now and then I’ll say something that they just look at me with a blank face and go, what the hell are you talking about? And then I turn and I go, wait, I have to explain

this in a way that they’re going to understand on their level. And I think that’s probably, that’s probably just as important as a coach to understand. Cause yeah, you might be then, you might be saying it to an athlete and the athlete may just look at you on the day if you’re, if you’re doing some swim technique with them or running, they might just turn around, look at you and go, Oh yeah, cool. Yep. Yep. Yep. They walk away and 10 minutes later, they’ve got no idea what you’ve just said because they’ve just tried to take it all in. They’ve tried to be sort of polite and nice and go, wow, you’ve got all this information. Clearly, you know, you’re talking about, I just have to take it in and hope that something sticks from our area. We go, Oh, cool. They just understood it. Great. I’ll just keep explaining it like that. But eventually someone’s going to come through and go, I don’t get it. Yeah, they’ll be honest. That’s when I think, that’s, that’s,

that’s when it’s the hardest. Cause then you turn around and go, I’ve only ever explained it that way. How else can I explain it? And so I guess Luke put a big emphasis when I first started Metz on, let’s use analogies all the time. And I’ve already used a few today with like engine size, bring it back to a basic VA. I use my, I use my office or our office here in Mulgrave as as an analogy all the time I talk about, if we’re trying to improve our ability to get oxygen in into the muscle, it’s like, well, the office inside where we’re sitting is, is the muscle outside of the bloodstream. If you’ve only got one door into the office, you’ve only got one pathway for option to come in. By doing long, slow training, I find, we can manipulate how many doors we have, how many doors are open. Are those doors just a standard swivel or are they a revolving door? Do we just knock out the whole wall and get as much oxygen as we can?

Analogies like that and trying to find different ways of presenting the information is so critical. Cause yeah, eventually, like I said, eventually you’re going to get that one person who turns around and goes, I have no idea what you just said. And they, they, they shouldn’t be expected to know what you say. Cause unless they’re, unless they’re a swim coach or they’re a sports scientist or they’ve done a degree, etc. They’re probably not going to have an idea. And even then, they may not be working, even if they are, like we’ve had, I’ve had guys come in who’ve done sports science degrees. I’ve had guys do master’s degrees in strength conditioning and things like that sit in front of me and still go, I still don’t get, like I, I haven’t heard any of this before. And they’ve done probably more study than what I’ve done currently. And it’s just a case of, I just see this, I see testing data and training data day in, day out, day in, day out. So I know that really well.

But even someone who’s studied some of, some of the concepts before still can not quite put the pieces together. And so finding the way that you can pretty much guide them through. And if the first, the first time you try and take them through, it doesn’t work. Have a second, have a third, have a fourth, have a fifth different way of explaining it because one of them eventually is going to stick. If you give them five different examples and they still can’t get it, all right, maybe it’s a, maybe it’s a communication thing on either end of the spectrum. But if it doesn’t, it’s going to eventually work one way. And then once it does click for them, that one goes to the second on the list. And you go, all right, that’s a really good analogy. And maybe that’s a better analogy or a better way of explaining, coaching, describing something than what you originally were using. And I’ve done that, we talk about all the time. I mean, there’s ways, things that I explain

like the office analogy I used before, I don’t think Luke uses that one. He uses like turnstiles at the football. Like if you’ve got one turnstile and you’ve got 100,000 people trying to get into the MCG, it’s not going to work. We need to build four, five, six, we need to build seven gates around the ground and put 10 turnstiles at each. How are we going to do that? Here’s the type of training that’s going to develop that adaptation. So it’s a little bit what resonates with you, but then also what’s actually, what’s going to capture the athlete’s imagination to understand what you’re talking about and then implement it. That’s underrated, I reckon, absolutely underrated. Yeah, a couple of months ago, I had someone comment on one of the videos we put up on YouTube and I think he was a coach and he was like this big paragraph, probably four, five hundred words. I think he was talking about the catch, but I couldn’t understand a word

he was saying. I don’t know if he was trying to sort of up himself and just kind of talk up how much he knew, but as a swim coach, he’s done it for 12 years and I can’t understand anything that you’re saying there. How’s a student going to understand that? It’s someone who you’re trying to teach. So I think the simplest you can make something is the best version of it.

One of the things that we talk about is the rotation of your hips and your upper body and getting the you to connect up the catch and your rotation and getting this extra power through the cross connection through your body. And I explained this. This was up in Nusa, one of the swimmers who attended. She kind of heard about how you want to drive from your hips and but never really understood it. But the way that I like to describe it and I heard this years ago and I think it plays really well is if you are going to throw a ball and you’re not allowed to rotate your upper body or your hips at all, you might get it say 20 meters. But as soon as you can throw it like you would a baseball where you can open up through your hips, you can open up through your upper body and almost use that upper upper body and hips as a as a sling to really to throw it forwards. Then you’re just going to get that two, three times the distance. And it’s similar in swimming and similar for overhead sports where

when you do allow that rotation to come in, then you can just get so much more out of it. And then so we normally explain that and then take them into some drills that involve that rotation and we get them to to feel for the difference from not actually rotating forwards to then actually doing it and having having them almost do the the wrong thing and the right thing. We do this with kind of getting them to feel for how much drag is created if they put the brakes on when they their hand extends out in front, then we get them to do it in the right position. And just to teach them in I think experiential ways is is as good as you can do. And then they can get a sense of when they are in the right position and when they’re not and then they can make that adjustment and then using analogies because you know we all like to listen to stories and then our thinking brain just switches off and we just kind of

we’re in the moment. We experience it without judgment and that’s why I think yeah stories and analogies are the best way to really describe things because no one’s kind of thinking in the back of their mind you know is this guy just you know is he full of it or what but we just we’re just able to take it in. Yeah absolutely and it’s it’s really interesting I don’t know if you you’ve had it where it’s sort of been onshared some of those those analogies but every now and then just pops up on on social media we see an athlete who’s seen previously whether a coaching client or a or they’ve come in just for testing and every now and then you see it pop up on on their feed they’re talking about how how much better their race result was or they’re feeling better in terms of their training and just in the in the caption underneath they they sort of leave a few comments about oh yeah because like now I’ve

got this like bigger v8 engine I can fit more cylinders and they’re just like talking the same language that you explain to it. I think that’s probably the really cool thing is that that’s the confirmation that they understand and if they can then pretty much and they don’t necessarily have to repeat it back to you in the same detail but if they can get all the key points you were trying to get across and they understand it because of the way you presented it that’s what we’re trying to do as a coach at the end of the day is trying to get someone to understand what we what we’re trying to get them to do really and yeah we get that sometimes where we’re occasionally we’ve seen and we know we know people have obviously been listening to a podcast where we’ve used a very specific analogy and it’s popped up somewhere else on social we’re like or we’ve I think it was there was one time we’re at a I can’t remember

what we were looking at a presentation somewhere and someone or a conference type set up and someone was someone I don’t remember what I was talking about but it came up it came up in someone’s presentation and we kind of just looked at each other and went where have they pulled that one from knowing full well pretty much where like where it come from like it was a podcast episode of video we’ve done ages ago and that was the kind of cool thing that like and we’ve always been pretty like pretty open book we’re not like if you want to if you want to take take our stuff and and repurpose it re-share it like and and if you if you so don’t quite a try and brand is your own go for it but if you like it’s all gonna come it’s all gonna come back in the end so like we’re happy to just throw stuff out and and put it out there and just help educate as best we can and to try and get some of these points across but

yeah it’s it’s sort of interesting how athletes resonate with like don’t worry about talking about that top end like as a sports scientist great I can if someone wants to come and have a conversation with me about about differences in power meters and the the plus minus percentage in left versus right and what’s cool come and have a conversation with me about if I start talking about that to an athlete who’s only just bought a tri bike and nothing else

it’s just not gonna like there’s a time and place you got to know who your audience is because even then I mean some some athletes are really good with it we have we have some guys who are full-on one of the guys I coach in the moment’s got he’s converted bedroom into basically an altitude chamber he’s real right into it but like has ticked every box and wants to tick every box and we can start to talk in a bit more of that that complex language in and because he wants to know and he and that’s where the athletes gonna tell you if they want to know more and they want to know why they’re gonna ask for it some athletes don’t really care they just want to know what they have to do they don’t really know they really want want to know the why or need to know the why so I think you probably you just have to pick your audience as well and analogies work analogies work for most people it’s a starting point but then based on who

you’re talking to is going to guide where the next part of that conversation goes and I think if we only have to look as far as any physiology podcast if you look at look at any of the ones that are that are up there the sort of hour long hour and a half episodes we have to we have to listen to them for professional development stuff like that and we just go just get to like get to the point there’s so much complex science in there that we understand it but it’s just like anyone navigating it who is who’s going that that one athlete who turned to go oh I want to know about the sports science but I don’t have a background in it so I’m kind of starting from scratch so they’re taking a really big jump to get up to that those exact reason why our podcast that that we started that you jumped on the other week was um is exactly how it’s set up is let’s just keep it to common language that we can talk about if in regards of who you are who’s listening to it or who’s on the podcast having a

chat anyone’s going to be able to understand it because if if anyone can understand it then

like we’re getting our point across and and it’s going to be pretty clear in what we’re trying to achieve if no one’s understanding it then we’re not communicating in the correct way um and if you refine that down to individual one-on-one work with an athlete if you can’t communicate to your athlete what you need to need them to do or want them to do they’re not going to be able to execute um on that and they’re not going to they’re probably not going to improve as a result because they’re not going to be doing what is set out for them um yeah completely yeah

and uh and for people who have um who’ve listened to this in there yeah there might be based in Melbourne or somewhere in Australia what’s uh what’s the best place to get in touch with yourself and um and the team and uh what are the websites and the socials yeah so team first so everything on social and uh I guess if you like looking at anything up on google is just METS performance so M-E-T-S generally in capitals um performance is is where you can find us occasionally it’ll come up as METS performance consulting it’s the same thing if you’re looking at the logo it’s a little running man with like a heart heartbeat symbol uh in the background

yeah we’re on facebook instagram we got youtube page uh we’ve also got if you look up METS mastermind on google um you’ll be able to jump into our free content site which is all the stuff that we we’ve come up with over the last couple years and it’s got our podcast and it’s got a whole bunch of free endurance information how to build training programs and navigate strength and conditioning and a whole bunch of different things um that also links to a free facebook community we’ve got the thousand over a thousand endurance athletes from from melbourne across australia and uh a few international athletes as well um coaches sport scientists pretty much just a forum space where we can we can go into some of those more detailed conversations like I was sort of leading to before but also just sort of get to know what what the what is happening in the endurance community what what we’re doing here and um and maybe

pick up some tips in terms of me personally um I’m mostly mostly on instagram is where I spend most of my time so you can find me at nj underscore sport science um or if you if you check my last stamp in the in the notes for the podcast people are shared to search it there pretty long one um otherwise on facebook as well it’s nick jankovskis uh dash sport scientist um I think it’s what my facebook page is called I haven’t really set that one up fully yet but uh they’re the main two um but mostly on instagram and then in terms of getting in contact with us yeah either via socials so sending us a message on on instagram or facebook or if you want to get in touch with me directly uh to set up a testing session just chat with their email at nickatmetsperformance.com um and we’ll yeah we’re happy to set up and happy to help out so thanks for listening to the effortless swimming podcast if you’d like us to help you become a faster more efficient swimmer go to www.effortlessswimming.com

you

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Our guest today is Michael Andrew, he is a competitive swimmer and has been the gold medalist for the 100-meter individual medley at the 2016 FINA Short Course World Championships. He is training in a non-traditional way and has pioneered the Ultra Short Course Race Pace Training.

02:32 Ultra Short Race Pace Training
07:04 Team Environment
08:01 Sessions Per Week
10:12 Constantly Adjusting
11:21 You Have To Enjoy It In order For It To Workout
15:27 International Swimming League
19:57 Consistency in training
21:53 Keto Diet

YT Channel: Michael Andrew
Instagram: swimmermichael

Transcription:

Welcome to episode number 135. My guest today is professional swimmer, Michael Andrew. Now you might’ve heard of Michael Andrew before. He is probably one of the more non-traditional swimmers in the training sense and the diet sense, a number of other things. He really breaks the mold on what competitive swimmers might be doing in the future. He’s really pioneered the ultra-short race pace training. He’s really the first competitive or professional swimmer who’s followed it for a number of years and we’re really starting to see the outcomes of that with some incredible times, and with Michael really starting to hit his peak and hit his stride. So Michael’s about to compete in the World Champs, which will be starting very shortly. But on today’s podcast we talk about a number of things. We talk about ultra-short race pace training, his diet. He’s a currently on the Keto Diet and has been on that for quite awhile.

And we also talk about what he does during the day. So he, he surfs a lot. He trains 10 times a week, but his typical session is only about two kilometers. And we also talk about how he travels and he is able to enjoy quite a good lifestyle while competing at the very top level. So we also had mentioned the International Swimming League, which is a new competition, which is a little bit like the 2020 in Cricket, which is kind of like a different style of racing. You compete for a team and that is looking like it could be where a big part of the sport is actually heading. So we also talk about the ISL, which Michael’s a big driver in. So let’s jump into the podcast. I hope you enjoy it.

Brenton: Yeah, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast Michael. We were actually in Thanyaburi in Thailand at the same time. You and your family were there as you were training in October.

Michael Andrew: Did we meet in person?

Brenton: No, I didn’t get a chance to say hi. I saw you training a couple times but we were at the … Oh, who was the speaker? The South African swimmer was there at the time-

Brenton: Yes Penny Haynes. Yeah, we were … Myself and some of our swimmers were there at the same time. It was a really good talk. I know with a lot of the athletes that we had at Thanyaburi, they were watching you train during the day. I think that’s probably one of the most unique things about what you’re doing compared to a lot of other swimmers. Is you’ve got a very different style and method of training.

Brenton: For those people listening they probably don’t know … May not know too much about it but you’ve basically been doing Ultra-short Race-pace Training for many years. You’re not necessarily doing these long strenuous sessions that break you down. It’s just all about short, sharp sprinting.

Brenton: Can you go into a little bit of detail about that and what your thoughts are after doing it for so many years?

Michael Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Michael Andrew: I guess ever since my age group career really started, or ever since I really pursued swimming, we’ve been doing everything very differently. From the training, to diet, to mental, the way we deal with our family. All of it’s different. The training being the most controversial.

Michael Andrew: Growing up my dad swam in South Africa. He went the traditional route. He did the yardage. He destroyed his body. He never really believed in that. When he started coaching me he did everything he could to seek information, seek data, what does science say and how does our body react to the way we push it. That’s where we ran into Dr. Brent Rushall. Australian originally, based in San Diego. He had come up with Ultra-short Race-pace Training.

Michael Andrew: The premise behind it … Well I guess if you were to put it into a single sentence USRPT is … Specificity rules. That’s all it is. Whenever I train I want to as specific to race gen as possible. The reason we do that is because our brain codes every movement so specifically so that when we come to race, if I’ve swum hundreds [bis 00:02:23], and drill, and kick, and upside down duckdive, whatever the heck it is we do nowadays. My bodies got all those different movements coded so when I race all this mix training produces mixed results. We try and get as streamlined as possible.

Michael Andrew: Now the yardage is much less. It’s a lot shorter. I’m typically going … I mean my big sessions are maybe 2,000 meters, 2,500 meters, if I’m going nuts in the morning. It’s just 100 pace at speed. It’s always … I mean it’s very intense.

Michael Andrew: I was speaking to a couple athletes earlier this morning about my training because I’m here in Singapore now, getting ready for World Champs. They asked me, “Are you sprinting every single practice?” I’m like, “Yeah, absolutely. Is that crazy?” They’re like, “I could never do that,” but it’s one of those things. It’s like yes it’s really hard but people look at the numbers. People look at, “Oh you got to being 6,000 yards to finish 100,” or whatever. It doesn’t make sense, and the body doesn’t need it, and the science is there. Now we’ve been able to test it with USRPT.

Michael Andrew: I guess if I was to run through a typical … I can kind of … That was a little bit of a rabbit trail but if I run through a typical session, if I’m training for a 100 free-style, long course, say my best time is 60 seconds. I’m going to take that 60 seconds, cut it down into quarters of the race, so four lengths. To make the math a little easier, I’m training … Say I’m training in a short course meter pool, 25 meters. I’d be holding 15 seconds for each length. The moment I go over that 15 we cut it off and take a break for a full cycle, like a 30 second break. We try and go a max of … We never go more than 30/25s for 100 set but inside those 30/25s, if we fail three times, that’s the end. We stop there because my body has had this neural fatigue where it knows, “Okay. That’s the stopping point.” I don’t want to be pushing my body or training my body to swim a time slower than what I need to go.

Michael Andrew: A lot of the time … The pace times I hold in practice are all dictated off of what I go … Like personal best. What’s my best time currently?

Michael Andrew: It’s simple. It’s very simple, very monotonous. It becomes … I’m pretty consistent but for me, what I love, is each time I go into train I could track the results throughout a season because I know exactly where I was the day before. We write down every split. Something we’ve run into is, in a team setting, how do we implement this? That’s something we’re starting [inaudible 00:05:01] with and work with other teams around the country, around the world, who are experimenting and coming up with ways to do that.

Brenton: Yeah, because … I mean watching you train in Thailand … No it’s really interesting. Watching you train in Thailand you’re going feet on wall, so you’re doing the turn and getting the time feet on wall, which is a lot more accurate obviously to erase.

Michael Andrew: Very.

Brenton: As you said it’s getting it in that team environment’s probably the more difficult thing, isn’t it? Because it requires a lot of times at once. If you got more than a couple swimmers it must be challenging to do.

Michael Andrew: We’ve seen some teams become very successful in … You divide your athletes into groups, but the tough thing is as you get … For me, I really can’t train with anyone because not very many people can hold the same paces. It’s nice having my dad get a watch every time. We’ve had groups where they’ll go … Half of the athletes are in the water, half of the athletes are out of the water running a stopwatch on their buddy. You can get certain things there with specificity.

Brenton: Yeah. That’s really good.

Brenton: How many sessions a week are you doing with … Well yeah. Because it’s all USRPT so how many times a week you in?

Michael Andrew: It’s changed quite a bit since we’ve moved to California. What we go typically is we’ll go Monday, Tuesday will be a double. Wednesday will be a single, so we’ve got five there. Then Thursday, Friday double. Then single Saturday. Then Sunday off. About 10 sessions in the water but we don’t … I don’t know, it’s interesting because the sessions are relatively short. A lot of rest involved. Then after our morning swim we will go and surf maybe three to five hours, if the surf is good. Then we’ll swim again in the evening doing our sprints.

Michael Andrew: The evening sessions are always over speed. Maybe we’ll start with a single 100 pace set but our over speed is just 12 to 16/25s off the blocks, lots of rest, all out for time. It’s not as USRPT in a sense because we have a longer rest period. When we do a 100 pace set we’re swimming 15 second intervals. So 15 seconds in between each repeat but when we do the over speed we give our body enough time for the heart rate to drop a little bit.

Brenton: Is that something that you’ve started doing recently or you’ve done that for awhile?

Michael Andrew: We’ve done it pretty much since the beginning. For me it was just the best way to feel the speed that I need for a 50. It’s the most accurate way to get there. So yeah. Yeah, it was great.

Michael Andrew: We’ve actually … We’ve just recently started adding … Excuse me. We were in Turkey not too long ago training with the Energy Standard group. I was doing sprints with Ben Proud, and [Flora 00:07:54] [Manadu 00:07:54], and Chad as well. We were going to the 15 all out. No underwater, straight push onto the surface. I noticed I was able to get to a much higher tempo, higher turnover right away so we’ve started adding that a little bit into it.

Michael Andrew: It’s not that we are close mind. Like USRPT is the only way. We add some things but other than that we keep it very specific.

Brenton: One thing I saw you doing in Thailand as well was, and just through the vlogs that you do as well, you do a lot of filming with the GoPros and the cameras. [crosstalk 00:08:26] You’re always analyzing your technique and always making small adjustments to your dive or underwaters, whatever it might be. How often are you doing that sort of stuff?

Michael Andrew: No. It’s 100% of the time. Even now, here in Singapore. My dad, unfortunately, is not with me here in Singapore but I find myself, as an athlete, every time I swim a length, when I hear the time I automatically think, “Okay, what did I do in that race or that swim that made it good, or what did I do that can be better?” I’m constantly adjusting, analyzing and seeing strokes.

Michael Andrew: Then we have Russ, our team guys, getting GoPro footage or I’m getting GoPro footage. It’s good.

Michael Andrew: One thing, one of our philosophies is … Or something my dad likes to say is, “He’s my assistant coach and I am the head coach.” It makes so much sense because the athlete has to be so bought in. To me, being bought in is constantly seeing, “Where can I improve?” That’s mostly through my stroke because I let Dad focus in on what sets I need to be doing.

Interviewer: I think from a lifestyle perspective you … It looks like you’re living your pretty good lifestyle with a lot of travel involved. Obviously surfing a lot in some very nice locations. Not really broken down, in the sense of just the ongoing training where your body just really … You want that recovery, you want that sleep. How have you found that over the last couple of years? Compared to maybe some of the other athletes that you’ve seen. What’s the difference between you and maybe someone who’s doing 10 sessions a week but they might be doing 60, 70 Ks a week?

Michael Andrew: Yeah. No, it’s … I mean there’s a lot of things different. I feel very blessed that one, I can afford to travel. This is really the first year where I’ve been able to do as much travel as I have. It’s been incredible. I mean I’ve already logged, I think, almost a little over 20,000 miles this year. Just flying back and forth racing, the champion series, and the pro series, and [Inter 00:10:32] [Nostrum 00:10:32], and Sette Colli.

Michael Andrew: Then I think one thing that really sets me … What makes it different for me is a frame of mind. I think mentally I know … Well I personally love it. One, I love to travel, I love racing, I love being abroad. As much as I do miss the surf, our surf reports the last couple weeks have been amazing. I [inaudible 00:10:56] … But it’s one of those things that gives me life. I’m excited when I get to go and travel to wherever it may be. I think a lot of athletes, at least a lot of swimmers I know, aren’t really that eager to travel all the time. I think there’s this … I don’t know. It’s just something that’s been conditioned into the athletes, is that we just … We train for a long period of time, we sit at home and enjoy our time.

Michael Andrew: I do, I enjoy being home but there’s a certain like … Okay. You have to enjoy it in order for it to work out. I think I’ve been successful with it up to now because I’ve enjoyed it so much.

Brenton: Yeah. I think there’s definitely truth to absence makes the heart grow fonder. I think that’s true with being home as well. Like I travel quite a bit with the clinics and the camps that we do. I like having something within a couple months time to look forward to going overseas or go on a trip and just mix it up. Then when you get back you’re just like, “Ah, it’s kind of nice to be home.” You can go into your normal routine or else if you’re … [crosstalk 00:12:02] Six months at home, it’s a long time. Things can get a little bit monotonous that way.

Michael Andrew: Definitely. No, I completely agree.

Michael Andrew: I mean it was harder at first, since we moved to California. We’ve only been there since December now. I feel like, “Oh I want to interact with all the new friends I’m meeting and enjoy the surf, check out new spots.” I think it’s good to understand … For me there will come a time that I’ll be home and I’ll get to do that but right now it’s time to work. It’s cool because when I was younger … I think having moved to California earlier it would have been very bad. I probably would have just focused on surfing and all of the other extracurricular activities out there because I would have been … I wasn’t as mature in knowing, “Okay, swimming’s my career now.” It’s a passion yes but I’m also … This is how I’m going to earn a living and be able to support my family in the future. It’s yeah, good mind shift.

Brenton: Yeah, definitely. There’s something about … I think for me … I live about an hour and a half from the surf. I’ll normally make the trip once a week to go down there but when I do eventually move there I feel like work, coaching, might take a backseat to it. It’s like there’s … It’s that balance, isn’t it? Where something that you love so much can just take over or it’s easier but if you’ve got that drive, you’ve got that goal … Especially you, where you are in your career right now, it’s a very exciting time. Especially with the ISL stuff coming up.

Brenton: We’ll talk about that now because I think that’s quite interesting.

Michael Andrew: Yeah.

Brenton: The International Swimming League is this new, I guess, competition that’s come about. You’re really at the forefront of that. It’s all starting in October. Do you want to give a bit of background on that and what the type of racing’s going to be?

Michael Andrew: Yeah. No, so for me … I guess the easiest way to explain what the ISL is doing is they’re giving athletes an opportunity to race more often, in exciting venues, with intense viewership and to reward these athletes with money that is quite substantial. It’s going to be exciting because people get to follow swimming like they never have before.

Michael Andrew: A lot of the times it’s every four years, every two years, the world gets excited about swimming. They watch it … I mean maybe not even … Actually not even every two years. It’s just the Olympics really. The Olympics brings so much viewership for swimming. Then after that it dies down because there’s nothing else. The ISL I think is going to bridge that gap where companies and commercial people are going to want to invest and be part of the world of swimming. It’s going to grow. I don’t know if it will be like NBA, or NFL, or how long it will take to get there but I do think it’s going to become a household sport. It’s going to give the athletes reason to stick along. You don’t have to work a side job just to try and pay the bills in order to train for sport that you really can’t earn. The ISL’s going to do that. But it’s going to be incredible.

Michael Andrew: For me, I’ve never experienced … Well I’ve been in one or two dual meet situations but speaking to a lot of the NCAA and college athletes, what they’re so excited about is the ISL is going to be basically a professional league that replicates what goes on in college with dual meets. Dual meets are apparently, I mean I’ve never experienced this, but dual meets are one of the most exciting things a swimmer can experience because it’s two, or three, or four teams going head-to-head. Times don’t really matter, it’s all about who places, who scores. Every athlete contributes to the team. The team that’s victorious at the end gets to celebrate.

Michael Andrew: It’s crazy. It’s such a cool idea. I think it’s going to go off really well.

Brenton: Yeah, definitely. It’s kind of like … We were talking about this earlier, I see it as almost like the 20/20 cricket where you’ve got these teams. People from all over the world are in these different teams. They compete for those teams and there’s a lot of … Just the competition side of it’s really exciting. When you see those, some of those college meets, man the crowd’s getting into it. As you said the times don’t matter but the competition is unreal. Just the level of excitement in the air is at that next level.

Michael Andrew: [crosstalk 00:16:18] … Something that I love too, so much about this, is the fact that I get to now be on a team. I’ve never really swum in a team setting. I’m going to have a team of athletes that I get to hang out and travel with. These athletes aren’t all from the US. There’s Australians on our team. We’ve got Germans. I mean all over the world. That’s pretty cool because where else would you get to do something like that?

Brenton: Yeah, exactly.

Brenton: It’s basically a competition from October through till February?

Michael Andrew: October through December actually. The final meet will be Vegas, Mandalay Bay in December. That’s the goal. I believe we have three competitions before Mandalay Bay, to basically earn your spot. The US teams will have one in the US, one international, that’s anywhere in Europe. I believe we are Dallas, Texas first and then Budapest. Then there’s a meet in Washington. We might want to fact check this but it’s like a dual for all the US teams. Then whoever has the most points goes onto Mandalay Bay to fight the other three teams for the crown, which will be pretty crazy-

Brenton: Yeah, that’ll be really exciting.

Brenton: I think with all of the travel involved and the regular racing, your style of training will work really well with that. With not being broken down. [crosstalk 00:17:52] At the middle of a season where everyone’s so heavy and they’re looking for some taper. I think it’ll obviously suit your type of training really well.

Brenton: How do you find it? With the type of training you’re doing, surfing a lot, do you get to the end of a week and you’re completely stuffed or are you generally feeling pretty good, pretty consistent across a week?

Michael Andrew: Yeah, there’s definitely a … The beginning of the week will maybe start up here and Monday, Tuesday I’ll deplete, be pretty sore. Wednesday we’ll do the one, I’ll feel a bit better. Then Thursday, Friday I’ll get sore. Then Saturday we try and end on a pretty fresh note. Then we take Sunday off. I end about where I started but there’s definitely a bit of soreness and fatigue that’s carried because if you’re surfing multiple hours a day and swimming-

Brenton: [crosstalk 00:18:40] … the surfing’s taking it out of you.

Michael Andrew: Yeah, it is. What I’ve loved so much is … I hate endurance training, especially in the pool. I don’t like … In the beginning of the season we did four weeks of three sets of 30/50s at 200 pace, with 20 seconds between each 50. I was doing 90/50s every day for four weeks. It was so painful. I would do sets butterfly, freestyle, backstroke it’s just … But I had the base. Now I really don’t have to do that because I’m doing it in the surf. The surf I’m out there just looking for a wave so my brain isn’t thinking, “Oh I’m training, I’m training.” To me I’m just looking for the next break in the surf, which is awesome. It encourages me to push myself harder.

Brenton: Yeah, it’s good. I reckon … Yeah, I do most surf and water swimming these days. Especially during summer, if I get out once or twice a week I’m so much stronger and so much more aerobically fit. If I’ve been doing [crosstalk 00:19:39] two or three hours in the surf. If you get to that point where you can’t paddle anymore, which is always a good feeling, you know you’ve had a good workout. You might even paddle … You can paddle five to … In a big surf, five to 10 Ks I reckon, if you’re constantly going, easily covering that distance.

Michael Andrew: Easily. No, definitely.

Brenton: Your diet’s also quite different than I guess a lot of other swimmers. You’re on the keto diet. You still currently doing that?

Michael Andrew: Yeah, correct. Keto diet. I mean I have help from supplements, ketone supplements, because for me, as an athlete, it’s still pretty uncharted territory. There’s a lot of science coming out but I’m still experimenting with sometimes dual fueling during the meets. Having a little bit of carbs just so that I burn it up but it’s not enough to create spike or a crash in insulin, so that once that’s gone out the ketones in my system can stay fueled. I still stay in ketosis with a little bit of carbs. It’s very individual, 100%. For me I’ve really enjoyed experimenting with it. I’ve noticed massive benefits on fueling off of fats over carbohydrates. My energy in the day is better. My body feels healthier.

Michael Andrew: One thing too is I’ve been able to adjust to jet lag [inaudible 00:20:59] very [inaudible 00:21:02]. My [inaudible 00:21:03] use is more efficient so I can hold my breath longer. There’s so many benefits that the keto diet promotes that people just don’t know about. It’s definitely changing. I think keto’s probably one of the biggest things right now, in the health industry. It’ll be cool to see where it goes with performance athletes very soon.

Brenton: Yeah. That’s awesome. It’s very … Yeah, in the last couple of years … I mean I’ve had a relative who started, I think at the start of the year, he’s down 10 or 15 kilos and hasn’t been completely strict with it but this is someone who’s … It’s because you can eat some pretty good foods with it too. It’s like he said, “Bacon, eggs, I’m in.” It’s an easy way to see it to a lot of people because there’s some good foods involved.

Michael Andrew: Absolutely.

Michael Andrew: No, I think too it’s going to … Well I can’t say it cures cancer but I think a lot of … We’ve heard a lot of stories and had friends that have dealt with cancer. By just cutting out all carbs and sugar killed it because the cancer can’t feed off of it unless it’s got carbs. There’s a lot of interesting things going around for sure.

Brenton: Yeah, definitely.

Brenton: What are you most excited about at the moment? What have you got coming up and what are you enjoying at the moment?

Michael Andrew: Yeah. I guess after … I guess right now the biggest thing is World’s. World’s is nine days away from now. I’m stoked. I have a very heavy schedule. A lot of 50s yes but it’ll still be a pretty heavy schedule. 100 breasts. Possible relays, two possible relays. It’ll be a great time in racing.

Michael Andrew: For me, I’m just excited to race the long course World’s. It’ll be my first long course World Champs. The pool venue looks incredible. Then right after World’s I go to Tokyo. I’ll race in Tokyo a couple days later. From Tokyo to Jinan. Jinan to Singapore. All racing for the World Cups.

Michael Andrew: After that I get to go home for a few days. Then I fly to New York with my dad to go and hang out with Voss at the Taste of Tennis. That’ll be nice. Like my little mini vacation. Then I’ll come home and start training again and getting ready for the second cluster of the World Cups and our first ISL meet.

Michael Andrew: The rest of the year’s just lots of traveling, lots of racing and a lot of surfing when I’m home.

Brenton: Yeah, that’s awesome.

Brenton: Well best of luck for World’s. That’s really exciting to be your first long course World’s. That’s … Yeah, that’ll be great.

Brenton: How are you feeling leading up to it?

Michael Andrew: Oh amazing. The training’s been really good. For me what was interesting is … Well what I’ve loved about being here in Singapore for our holding camp is the last couple weeks I’ve been racing so much that I haven’t really had a solid training regiment. I haven’t been training in our traditional sense, like doing sets every day. It’s nice to now be in a room where I can just relax, I can edit my videos, focus on training, eat well, sleep well. Just get my body back to level so that when it comes time for World’s I’m fresh and ready to go because there was definitely a point, when I flew back from Rome, that I was dealing with at cough, I was feeling tired. My body had been physically drained. This has just been perfect for me going into World’s. That I feel strong still, I have the endurance. Just having a great time getting ready.

Michael Andrew: I’m actually very, very, very excited for World’s. I think there’s going to be some fast swimming. Both from myself and from other athletes, of course.

Brenton: Yeah. There’s been some good times in the lead-up to it. I’ve been following a lot of the Aussie swimmers. Yeah, it should be a good competition. Looking forward [crosstalk 00:24:52] to watching it.

Brenton: You’ve got your YouTube channel and your, obviously, Instagram account as well. You’re doing a lot of videos lately on YouTube and you do a lot of vlogging. I think it’s really good. Just to get an insight into what you go through on a daily basis, the type of training. As a coaches perspective I like to see what’s Michael up to? What’s he doing? What’s working? But also just the other things around it. Where can people find you on YouTube and on Instagram? Where else would you like to check out what you’re doing?

Michael Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Michael Andrew: Yeah. I do a lot with social media. I enjoy being creative. I actually [inaudible 00:25:30] sitting here but I enjoy being able to create while I travel. I actually have a new vlog coming out, well this evening, of our training camp here in Singapore. You can find that, YouTube is just Michael Andrew, pretty simple. Then Instagram, Twitter, everything else is just swimmermichael. I try and keep it nice and easy.

Brenton: Yeah, cool. We will link to that in the show notes.

Michael Andrew: Appreciate it.

Brenton: We’ll put this podcast up on our YouTube channel as well and put the links there too.

Michael Andrew: Super.

Brenton: I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah and sharing all that with us.

Brenton: Good luck for World’s. It should be a really exciting competition.

Michael Andrew: Thank you so much.

So it’s simple, it’s very simple, very monotonous. It becomes, you know, pretty consistent. But for me, what I love is each time I go into train, I can track the results throughout a season because I know exactly where I was the day before. Welcome to the Effortless Swimming Podcast to show that help swimmers and triathletes love the water, become a better swimmer and live a better life. Here’s your host, Brenton Ford. Welcome to episode number 135. My guest today is professional swimmer Michael Andrew. Now you might have heard of Michael Andrew before. He is probably one of the more non-traditional swimmers in the training sense and the diet sense and number of other things. He really breaks the mold on what competitive swimmers might be doing in the future. He’s really pioneered the ultra short race pace training. He’s really the first competitive or professional swimmer who’s followed it for a number of years.

And we’re really starting to see the outcomes of that with some incredible times and with Michael really starting to hit his peak and hit his stride. So Michael’s about to compete in the world champs which we’ll be starting very shortly. But on today’s podcast, we talk about a number of things. We talk about ultra short race pace training. His diet, he’s currently on the keto diet and he’s been on that for quite a while. And we also talk about what he does during the day. So he surfs a lot, he trains 10 times a week but his typical session is only about two kilometers. And we also talk about how he travels and he’s able to enjoy quite a good lifestyle while competing at the very top level. So we also mentioned the International Swimming League which is a new competition which is a little bit like the 2020 in cricket which is kind of like a different style of racing you can compete for a team. And that is looking like it could be

where a big part of the sport is actually heading. So we also talk about the ISL which Michael’s a big driver in. So let’s jump into the podcast. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. Michael, we were actually in Tanya Pure in Thailand at the same time, you and your family were there as you were training in October. And… Do we meet in person? No, I didn’t get a chance to say hi. I saw you training a couple of times but we’re at the, who was the speaker? The South African swimmer was there at the time during the… Yes, Penny Haynes. Yeah, myself and some of our swimmers were there at the same time. So it was a really good talk. And I know with a lot of the athletes that we had at Tanya Pure they were watching you train during the day. And I think that’s probably one of the most unique things about what you’re doing compared to a lot of other swimmers is you’ve got a very different style and method of training.

And for those people listening, they probably may not know too much about it but you’ve basically been doing ultra short race pace training for many years and you’re not necessarily doing these long, strenuous sessions that break you down. It’s just all about short, sharp sprinting. So can you go in a little bit of detail about that and what your thoughts are after doing it for so many years? Yeah, for sure. So I guess ever since my age group career really started, ever since I really pursued swimming, we’ve been doing everything very differently from the training to diet to mental, like the way we deal with our family, all of it’s different. The training being the most controversial. Growing up, my dad swam in South Africa. He went the traditional route. He did the yardage. He destroyed his body and he never really believed in that. And so when he started coaching me, he did everything he could to seek information,

seek data, what does science say and how does our body react to the way we push it? And that’s kind of where we ran into Dr. Brent Russell, Australian originally, based in San Diego and he had come up with ultra short race pace training. And the premise behind it, well, I guess if you were to kind of put it into like a single sentence, USRPT is specificity rules, like that’s all it is.

So whenever I train, I want to be as specific to racing as possible. And the reason we do that is because our brain codes every movement so specifically so that when we come to race, if I’ve swum hundreds this and drill and kick and upside down duck dive, whatever the heck it is we do nowadays, my body’s got all those different movements coded. So when I race, like all this mixed training produces mixed results. So we try and get as streamlined as possible. Now the yardage is much less, it’s a lot shorter. I’m typically going, I mean, my big sessions are maybe like 2000 meters, 2500 meters if I’m like going nuts in like the morning. And it’s just hundred pace at speed. Like it’s always, I mean, it’s very intense. I was speaking to a couple of athletes earlier this morning about my training because I’m here in Singapore now getting ready for world champs. And they asked me like, so are you sprinting every single practice?

And I’m like, yeah, absolutely. Is that crazy? And they’re like, I could never do that. But it’s like, you know, one of those things, it’s like, yes, it’s really hard, but people look at the numbers. Like people look at, oh, you got to be doing 6,000 yards to finish a hundred or whatever. And it doesn’t make sense and the body doesn’t need it. And the science is there and now we’ve been able to kind of test it with USRPT. So I guess if I was to run through a typical, I can kind of, I was a little bit of a rabbit trail, but if I run through a typical session, if I’m training for a 100 freestyle long course, say my best time is 60 seconds, I’m going to take that 60 seconds, cut it down into quarters of the race. So four lengths. And to make the math a little easier, like I’m training, say I’m training in a short course meter pool, 25 meters, I’d be holding 15 seconds for each length. The moment I go over that 15,

we cut it off and take a break for like a full cycle, like a 30 second break. And we try and go a max of, we never go more than 30, 25s for a hundred set, but inside those 30, 25s, if we fail three times, that’s the end. Like we stop there because my body has had this neural fatigue where it knows, okay, like that’s the stopping point. I don’t want to be pushing my body or training my body to swim a time slower than what I need to go. And a lot of the time, like the pace times I hold in practice are all dictated off of what I go like personal best, like what’s my best time currently. So it’s simple, it’s very simple, very monotonous. It becomes pretty consistent, but for me what I love is each time I go into train, I can track the results throughout a season because I know exactly where I was the day before, we write down every split. And something we’ve run into is in a team setting, how do we implement this?

And so that’s something we’re starting to experiment with and work with other teams around the country, around the world who are experimenting and coming up with ways to do that. Yeah, because I mean, watching you, watching your training in Thailand, no, it’s really interesting in watching your training in Thailand, you’re going like feet on wall, so you’re doing the turn and getting the time food on wall, which is a lot more accurate, obviously, to a race. And yeah, and as you said, it’s getting it in that team environment is probably the more difficult thing, isn’t it? Because it requires a lot of times at once, so if you’ve got more than a couple swimmers, it must be challenging to do. It is very visual for sure.

We’ve seen some teams become very successful in like you divide your athletes into groups, but the tough thing is as you get, like for me, I really can’t train with anyone because not very many people can hold the same paces, and it’s nice having my dad get a watch every time. So we’ve had groups where they’ll go, like half of the athletes are in the water, half of the athletes are out of the water running a stopwatch on their buddy, so you can get like certain things there with specificity. Yeah, that’s really good. And how many sessions a week are you doing with, well, yeah, because it’s all USRPT, so how many times a week are you in? Yeah, so it’s changed quite a bit since we’ve moved to California.

What we go typically is we’ll go Monday, Monday, Tuesday will be a double, Wednesday will be a single, so we’ve got five there, and then Thursday, Friday, double, and then single Saturday and Sunday off. So about 10 sessions in the water,

but we don’t, I don’t know, it’s interesting because the sessions are relatively short, a lot of rest involved, and then after our morning swim, we will go and surf maybe three to five hours if the surf is good, and then we’ll swim again in the evening doing our sprints, and the evening sessions are always over speed, so maybe we’ll start with a single hundred pace set, but our over speed is just 12 to 16, 25s off the blocks, lots of rest all out for time, and it’s not as USRPT in a sense, because we have a longer rest period. Like when we do a hundred pace set, we’re swimming 15 second intervals, so like 15 seconds in between each repeat, but when we do the over speed, we give our body enough time for the heart rate to drop a little bit. And is that something that you’ve started doing recently, or you’ve done that for a while? We’ve done it pretty much since the beginning. For me, it was just the best way to feel the speed that I need for a 50,

it’s the most accurate way to get there. Yeah, it was great. And we’ve actually, we just recently started adding, excuse me, we were in Turkey, not too long ago training with the Energy Standard Group, and I was doing sprints with Ben Proud and Flora Manadou and Chad as well, and we were going to the 15 all out, like no underwater, straight push onto the surface, and I noticed like I was able to get to a much higher tempo, higher turnover right away, so we’ve started adding that a little bit into it. So it’s not that we are, you know, closed mind, like you’re starting to do the only way, like we add some things, but other than that, we keep it very specific. And one thing I saw you’re doing in Thailand as well was, and just sort of through the vlogs that you do as well, you do a lot of filming with the GoPro’s and the cameras, and you’re always analyzing your technique and always making small adjustments to your dive

or underwaters, whatever it might be. How often are you doing that sort of stuff? No, it’s 100% of the time. So even now here in Singapore, so my dad unfortunately is not with me here in Singapore, but I find myself as an athlete, every time I swim a length, when I hear the time, I automatically think, okay, what did I do in that race or in that swim that made it good or what did I do that can be better? And I’m constantly adjusting, analyzing and seeing strokes, and then we have like Russ, our team guys, getting GoPro footage or I’m getting GoPro footage. You know, so like it’s good. One thing, one of our philosophies is, or something my dad likes to say is, he’s my assistant coach and I’m the head coach. And it makes so much sense because the athlete has to be so bought in. And to me, being bought in is constantly seeing where can I improve? And that’s mostly through my stroke because I let dad focus in on what sort of sets I need to be doing.

Yeah, and I think from a lifestyle perspective, you looks like you’re living a pretty good lifestyle with a lot of travel involved. Obviously surfing a lot. In some very nice locations and not really broken down in the sense of just the ongoing training where your body just really, you want that recovery, you want that sleep. So how have you sort of, how have you found that over the last couple of years and compared to maybe some of the other athletes that you’ve seen? Like, what’s the difference between you and maybe someone who’s doing 10 sessions a week but they might be doing 60, 70 Ks a week? Yeah, no, it’s, I mean, there’s a lot of things different. I feel, I feel very blessed that I, one, I can afford to travel. This is really the first year where I’ve been able to do as much travel as I have. It’s been incredible. I mean, I’ve already logged, I think almost a little over 20,000 miles this year just flying back and forth,

racing the champion series and pro series and Aaron Ostrom and Cedric Holy. And then, you know, I think one thing that really sets me, what makes it different for me is a frame of mind. I think mentally I know, like I, well, I personally love it. Like I want, I love to travel. I love racing. I love being abroad. As much as I do miss the surf, like our surf reports the last couple of weeks have been amazing.

And I have,

it’s one of the things that gives me life. And so I’m excited when I get to go and travel to wherever it may be. And I think a lot of athletes, at least a lot of swimmers I know, aren’t really that eager to travel all the time. You know, it’s, I think there’s this,

I don’t know, it’s just kind of a, something that’s been kind of conditioned into the athletes is that we just, we train for a long period of time. We get, we stay at home and enjoy our time. And I do, I enjoy being home. But, you know, there’s a certain kind of like, okay, you have to enjoy it in order for it to work out. And I think I’ve been successful with it up to now because I’ve enjoyed it so much. Yeah. And I think there’s definitely truth to absence makes the heart grow founder. And I think that’s true with being home as well. Like I, we, I travel quite a bit with the clinics and the camps that we do. And I like kind of having something within a couple of months time to look forward to like going overseas or going on a trip and just kind of mix it up. And then when you get back, you just like, oh, it’s kind of nice to be home and you can go into your normal routine. Or else if you’re six months at home, it’s just,

it’s a long time. It just, things can get a little bit monotonous that way. Definitely. No, I completely agree. And I mean, it was harder at first since we moved to California. We’ve only been there since December now. And so I feel like, oh, I want to, you know, interact with all the new friends I’m meeting and enjoy the surf, check out new spots. And, you know, I think it’s good to understand, like for me, there will come a time that I’ll be home and I’ll get to do that. But right now it’s, you know, time to work. And it’s cool because when I was younger, I think had we moved to California earlier, it would have been very bad. Like I probably would have just focused on surfing and all of the other extracurricular activities out there because I would have been, I wasn’t as, you know, mature in knowing, okay, like so means my career now. Like it’s a passion, yes. But I’m also, this is how I’m going to earn a living

and be able to support my family in the future. So it’s, yeah, good mind shift. Yeah, definitely. There’s something about, I think for me, like I live about an hour and a half from the surf and I’ll normally make the trip once a week to go down there. But when I do eventually move there, I feel like, you know, work, coaching might take a back seat to it. So it’s like, it’s kind of that balance, isn’t it? Where something that you love so much can just like, you know, take over, what’s easier. But if you’ve got that, you’ve got that drive, you’ve got that goal and especially you, where you are in your career right now, like it’s a very exciting time, especially with the ISL stuff coming up. And we’ll talk about that now because I think that’s quite interesting, is the International Swimming League is this new sort of, I guess, competition that’s come about and you’re all really at the forefront of that and it’s all starting in October.

So do you want to give a bit of background on that and what the type of racing is going to be? Yeah, no. So for me, I guess the easiest way to explain what the ISL is doing is they’re giving athletes an opportunity to race more often in exciting venues with intense viewership and to reward these athletes with money that, you know, is quite substantial. Like it’s going to be exciting because people will get to follow swimming like they never had before. A lot of the times it’s, you know, every four years, every two years, the world gets excited about swimming, they watch it. I mean, actually not even every two years, it’s just the Olympics really. The Olympics brings so much viewership for swimming and then after that it dies down because there’s nothing else. The ISL, I think, is going to bridge that gap where companies and commercial people are going to want to invest and be part of the world of swimming and it’s going to grow.

I don’t know if it will be like NBA or NFL or how long it will take to get there but I do think it’s going to become a household sport and it’s going to give the athletes, you know, reason to stick along. Like you don’t have to work a side job just to try and pay the bills in order to train for a sport you really can’t earn and the ISL is going to do that but it’s going to be incredible. For me, I’ve never experienced, I’ve been in one or two dual meet situations but speaking to a lot of the NCAA and college athletes, what they’re so excited about is that the ISL is going to be basically a professional league that replicates what goes on in college with dual meets. Like dual meets are apparently, I mean, I’ve never experienced this but dual meets are one of the most exciting things a swimmer can experience because it’s two or three or four teams going head to head. You know, times don’t really matter. It’s all about who places who scores.

You know, every athlete contributes to the team and the team that’s victorious at the ends gets to celebrate. Like it’s crazy, it’s such a cool idea and I think it’s going to go off really well. Yeah, definitely. And it’s kind of like, when we’re talking about this earlier, I see it as almost like the 2020 cricket where you’ve got these teams, people from all over the world are in these different teams and they compete for those teams and there’s a lot of, just the competition side of it’s really exciting. And when you see those, some of those college meets like man, the crowd’s getting into it and as you said, the times don’t matter but the competition is unreal just the level of excitement in the air is at that next level. So, I think something that I love too so much about this is the fact that I get to now be on a team. Like I’ve never really swam in a team setting. So I’m going to have a team of athletes that I get to hang out and travel with

and these athletes aren’t all from the US. Like there are Australians on our team, we’ve got Germans, we’ve, I mean all over the world and that’s pretty cool because where else would you get to do something like that? Yeah, exactly. And it’s basically, is the competition from October through till February?

So October through December actually, the final meet will be Vegas, Mandalay Bay in December. And that’s kind of the, that’s the goal. I think, I believe we have, is it three, three competitions before Mandalay Bay to basically earn your spot. So the US teams will have one in the US, one international anywhere in Europe. I believe we are, we’re Dallas, Texas first and then Budapest and then there’s a meet in Washington. We might want to fact check this, but it’s like a duel for all the US teams and then whoever has the most points goes on to Mandalay Bay to kind of fight the other three teams for the crown. It should be pretty crazy. Yeah, that’d be really exciting. And I think with all of the travel involved and the regular racing, your style of training will work really well with that with not being broken down in the middle of a season where everyone’s so heavy and they’re looking for some taper. I think it’ll suit,

obviously suit your type of training really well. And how do you find as, with the type of training you’re doing, surfing a lot, do you get to the end of a week and you’re completely stuffed or are you generally feeling pretty good, you know, pretty consistent across a week?

Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely a, so like the beginning of the week will maybe start up here and Monday, Tuesday, I’ll be pretty sore. Wednesday, we’ll do the one. I’ll feel a bit better and then Thursday, Friday, I’ll get sore and then Saturday, we try and end on a pretty fresh note and then we take Sunday out. So it’s kind of a, you know, I end about where I started, but there’s definitely a bit of soreness and fatigue that’s carried because, you know, if you’re surfing multiple hours a day and swimming, you’re still- Like the surfing to take it out of you. It is, yeah, it is. And what I’ve loved so much is like, I hate endurance training, especially in the pool. Like I don’t like, we, in the beginning of the season, we did four weeks of three sets of 30 50s at 200 pace with 20 seconds between each 50. So I was doing 90 50s every day for four weeks and it was so painful. I would do sets or fly, freestyle, breaststroke, backstroke, it’s just,

but I had the base, but now I don’t really have to do that because I’m doing it in the surf. The surf, I’m out there just looking for a wave. So my brain isn’t thinking, oh, I’m training, I’m training. To me, I’m just looking for the next break in the surf, which is awesome. So it encourages me to push myself harder. Yeah, it’s good. I reckon, yeah, I do most surf and water swimming these days and especially during summer, if I get out once or twice a week, I’m so much stronger and so much more aerobically fit. If I’m being doing two or three hours in the surf, and if you get to that point where you can’t paddle anymore, which is always a kind of good feeling, you know, you’ve had a good workout and you might even paddle like, you can paddle five, in a big surf, five to 10 Ks, I reckon, if you’re constantly going, easily going that sort of distance. Easily, no, definitely. And your diet’s also quite different than I guess a lot of others.

And as you’re on the keto diet, you’re still currently doing that. Yeah, correct. Keto diet, and I mean, I have help from supplements, ketone supplements, because for me as an athlete, it is, it’s still pretty uncharted territories. There’s a lot of science coming out,

but I’m still experimenting with sometimes dual feeling during the meets, having a little bit of carbs, just that I burn it up, but it’s not enough to create spike or crash an insulin. So that once that’s kind of gone out, the ketones in my system can, you know, stay fuel. So I still stay in ketosis with a little bit of carbs. So it’s just kind of, you know, it’s very individual, a hundred percent. And for me, I’ve really enjoyed experimenting with it. And I’ve noticed massive benefits on fueling off of fats over carbohydrates. My energy in the day is better. My body feels healthier. One thing too is I’ve been able to adjust to jet lag very quick.

My engine use is more efficient so I can hold my breath longer. So there’s so many benefits that the keto diet promotes that people just don’t know about. And it’s definitely changing. I think keto is probably one of the biggest things right now in the health industry. And it’ll be cool to see where it goes with performance athletes very soon. Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s very, yeah, in the last couple of years, I mean, I’ve had a relative who’s started, I think at the start of the year, and he’s down like 10 or 15 kilos and hasn’t been completely strict with it. But, you know, this is someone who’s just, and it’s because you can eat some pretty good foods with it too, is like you said, bacon, eggs, I’m in, you know, it’s like, it’s an easy way to sort of sell it to a lot of people because there’s some good foods involved. Absolutely. No, well, I think too, it’s gonna, well, I can’t say it cures cancer, but I think a lot of,

we’ve heard a lot of stories and have friends that have, you know, dealt with cancer and by just cutting out all carbs and sugar, killed it because it kind of can’t feed off of it unless it’s got carbs. So there’s a lot of interesting things going around for sure. Yeah, definitely. And what are you most excited about at the moment? What have you got coming up and what are you enjoying at the moment? Yeah, so I guess after, well, I guess right now, the biggest thing is Worlds. Worlds is nine days, nine days away from now. And I’m stoked. I have a very heavy schedule, a lot of 50s, yes, but it’ll still be a pretty heavy schedule, hard rest, possible relays, two possible relays. So it’ll be a great time of racing. For me, I’m just excited to race in the long course Worlds. It’ll be my first long course World Champs. The pool venue looks incredible. And then right after Worlds, I go to Tokyo. I’ll race in Tokyo a couple of days later,

from Tokyo to Janan, Janan to Singapore, all racing for the World Cups. After that, I get to go home for a few days and then I fly to New York with my dad to go and hang out with Voss at the Taste of Tennis. So that’ll be kind of nice, like my little mini vacation and then I’ll come home and start training and getting ready for the second cluster of the World Cups. And our first ISL meet. So the rest of the year is just lots of traveling, lots of racing and a lot of surfing when I’m home. Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, best of luck for Worlds. That’s really exciting to be a first long course World.

How are you feeling leading up to it? Oh, amazing. The training’s been really good. For me, what was interesting is, well, what I’ve loved about being here in Singapore for our holding camp is the last couple of weeks I’ve been racing so much that I haven’t really had a solid training regimen. So like I haven’t been training in our traditional sense, like doing sets every day. And so it’s nice to now be in a room where I can just relax, I can edit my videos, focus on training, eat well, sleep well, just get my body kind of back to level so that when it comes time for Worlds, I’m fresh and ready to go. Because there’s definitely a point when I flew back from Rome that I was dealing with a cough, I was feeling tired, my body had been physically drained and this has just been perfect for me going into Worlds. But I feel strong still, I have the endurance and just having a great time getting ready. Like I’m actually very, very, very excited for Worlds.

And I think there’s gonna be some fast swimming, both for myself and from other athletes, of course. Yeah, there’s been some good times in the lead up to it and I’ve been following a lot of the Aussie swimmers. And yeah, it should be a good competition. So I’m looking forward to watching it. And you’ve got your YouTube channel and your obviously Instagram account as well. You’re doing a lot of videos lately on YouTube and you do a lot of vlogging. And I think it’s really good just to get an insight into what you go through on a daily basis, the type of training. And from a coach’s perspective, I like to see what’s Michael up to, what’s he doing and what’s working. But also just the other things around it. So where can people find you on YouTube and on Instagram and where else would you like them to sort of check out what you’re doing? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I do a lot with social media. I enjoy being created.

Actually, I don’t sit in here. But I enjoy being able to create while I travel. I actually have a new vlog coming out this evening of our training camp here in Singapore. And you can find that YouTube is just Michael Andrew. Pretty simple. And then Instagram, Twitter, everything else is just Summer Michael. Try and keep it nice and easy. Yeah, cool. And we’ll link to that in the show notes. And we’ll put this podcast up on our YouTube channel as well and put the links there too. So I appreciate you taking the time and sharing all that with us. And good luck for worlds. It should be a really exciting competition. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Effortless Swimming Podcast. If you’d like us to help you become a faster, more efficient swimmer, go to www.effortlesswimming.com.

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