Thinking about graduate school? Whether you're a seasoned professional considering a return to academia or a recent grad mapping out your next steps, the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast offers invaluable insights you won't want to miss.

Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Keith Kelley, Associate Dean and Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint's School of Management, for a candid conversation about the winding, often unexpected paths of graduate education. From his undergraduate days at the University of New Hampshire to his journey through master's and doctoral programs at Florida International University, Dr. Keith Kelley shares stories of setbacks, pivots, perseverance, and growth.

Embracing a Nonlinear Path

One of the episode's central themes is that the road to and through grad school is rarely straightforward. Dr. Keith Kelley openly discusses his early academic struggles, time spent working and traveling, and how these life experiences led him to find his true academic passions later on. He reminds listeners that it's okay if your journey isn't perfectly mapped out—sometimes, the best opportunities arise from unexpected detours.

Humility, Commitment, and Resilience

Returning to school after time in the workforce required Dr. Keith Kelley to humble himself and fully commit to being a student again. He emphasizes embracing lifelong learning, asking questions, and being open to growth. When setbacks happen—as they inevitably do—persistence and support networks are key. Dr. Keith Kelley candidly reflects on his own moments of doubt and the friends and mentors who helped him dust himself off and keep moving forward.

Balancing Life and Learning

Grad school isn't just about academic rigor—it's about balance. Dr. Keith Kelley offers practical advice on time management, scheduling, and leveraging campus resources, from study spaces to mental health services. He stresses the importance of making space for family, friends, and recovery, which ultimately helps mitigate burnout and enhances productivity.

The Power of Community and Networking

Perhaps the most enduring lesson is the value of building a strong network. The relationships you form with classmates, professors, and colleagues can lead to professional opportunities, mentorship, and vital support throughout your career and personal life.

If you're seeking real-world advice—and some entertaining stories—from someone who's walked the walk, be sure to listen to this episode. "Victors in Grad School" delivers the perspective, encouragement, and tools you need to succeed on your own grad school journey.

Tune in and start charting your path today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you show up, that you are here trying to prepare yourself for this journey that you're going on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. And for every person thinking about graduate school, it is a journey that you will be on from the very beginning as you're starting to look at programs, through the application process, as you matriculate and enter into the graduate program itself. And through the program, you're going to be learning things, you're going to be adjusting things, and you're going to be figuring things out as you go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: This podcast was developed to help you just with that, to be able to provide you with some perspectives, some experiences, some things that you can think about to help you to find success, success in your graduate school journey sooner. That's why every week I love having different people with different experiences that can share their own journey with you. And today we've got another great guest. Dr. Keith Kelley is with us today. And Dr. Kelly is a professor of professor in the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's also the Associate Dean of the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and to be able to have him share some of his own experiences and introduce him to you as well. Keith, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:01:41]: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. And I can't wait to share my experiences and hopefully people can relate to that and maybe learn a little something about my journey and similarities and, of course, lessons that I've learned along the way. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I know that you did your bachelor's degree at UNH, at UNH Peter Paul College of Business and Economics. You got a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration in International Affairs. And then you went went off, you went off, you got some experiences, you started using that bachelor's degree to do some different things out in the world. But at some point, at some point, you made a decision, you made a decision that you were not done, that you wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:24]: Well, let me go back just about the education part, which you were just referring to. So I actually got my degree from the Whittemore School of Business and Economics renamed. So the name that you gave there. These schools change in name over time. Unh and UNH is my home state. But that's not. What I'm trying. Trying to say here is that I actually started out at Bentley College, which is now a university in Waltham, Mass.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:45]: And probably a lot of people can relate to this is that I didn't do well when I started out. I went to a business school. I basically applied to three schools. I got into all of them. Bentley was my kind of second school, which is a good school, but I couldn't really afford the one that I really wanted to go to, which is Babson. And so when I started out there, I didn't really do particularly well. And after a few years I was like, well, wait a minute, let's pause on this, on my education. And I was kind of lucky in the sense that I took a moment to just kind of explore what was the purpose of me getting an education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:14]: And then I did a little introspection, a little traveling, and then I ended up in Costa Rica and Venezuela for quite some time. And that's how I came back to the degrees that you mentioned with business and international affairs. This is right about the time when Hugo Chavez had come to power in Venezuela. And I was experiencing, you know, this in real time, what can happen with countries. And so I came back and I was like, okay, well this is something that I'm interested in studying. And then I was fortunate to have support of my grandparents who were. Their alma mater was Unh. And so I got my education there, finished my degrees and.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:43]: And then I was working in a cubicle in a tech company in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Going in at night and going in during the day and it was dark and coming out at night and it was dark. And I was like, is this what my life is going to be like? And at this point I had quite a bit of experience with Latin America. I'm going to South Florida, I'm going to Miami. And so I kind of pursued my career down there and. And then I ended up in working for a number of years like many people do before they go into grad school and, you know, getting to the point where maybe my career is stagnating a little bit, and ended up going back to grad school not for the purposes of just going to get my education, but education is a very non nonlinear process for some of us. And so I never thought that it was going to end up where I am today. But like any great story of grad school, it begins with a man or a woman.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:23]: So I had a girlfriend at the time who was interested in a program at my next alma mater, Florida International University, and she was going back to a music program there. And I said, well, it's time for me to go back to grad school. And they had a great international business program there. So I was like, let me go and join some of their international business programs. It was the best decision I ever made. And so I ended up doing my master's in international business there because there was a real passion with Latin America, and I was really excited about that. And I ended up basically meeting a whole bunch of different cultures and people, and my network there was just fantastic. So I would certainly say that that's one of the best experiences that I had that was unexpected about graduate school.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:59]: And then towards the end of that, this was right around 2007 and 2008, when I was going to grad school, one of the professors there was talking to me about going on and doing my doctorate. And I had never considered that before in my life. And we're heading into a little bit of a recession. I was like, well, maybe this is a sign that this is something that I want to do, because it's really passionate about learning and education and all of these things with business and affairs. And so I ended up down in Miami, nonlinear path, Coming out of the University of New Hampshire, but starting in another college, not doing well, and kind of transitioning myself into various different ways. And that's how I ended up in grad school. Great decision, great network of people. And that's how I got into pursuing my doctorate as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:05:35]: Just a lot of things happen by chance. So I would say that my. My opportunities presented themselves, for sure, but none of them were precisely planned out. So say that I could probably relate to a lot of people, but not necessarily 100% sure what they're going for in life. And we always have to pivot and make adjustments. And, you know, education has really paid off for me. It's been one of the best, best tools that I've had for kind of advancing my life and getting to where I am today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: You talked just a second ago about all these transitions. And every person that goes through graduate school has to go through a number of transitions. You go through a transition from for yourself, going and getting a bachelor's degree to transitioning out of education into the workforce. Figuring what that was like. Then as you move down to Miami and you figure out, I'm going to go back to school, then it's transitioning back into school, into now a graduate degree. And even going from a master's degree into a doctorate degree is a transition. As you look at and you think about the transitions that you went through from bachelor's to master's to doctorate degrees, what are some of the things that you had to do to be at the very beginning to be able to set yourself up for success? And what are some things that you had to do as you were going through the programs to maintain and continue that success to the very end?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:06:48]: Yeah, well, let's say it's especially at the, you know, going back to school after spending a number of years just working professionally, you have to make the adjustment of committing to school, committing to education, and humble yourself a little bit as well. So I think that I humbled myself a great deal going into the doctoral programs. But, you know, coming back to graduate school for my master's degree, you really have to commit to your education. And so I think that, as I mentioned, I was pursuing a little bit of an interest in some of the subject matter for international business, and I hadn't really fully committed to the university of the school, but once I started out, I realized, realized that it was really something I had a huge passion for and working with the students that I was in my cohort with, going back to school and making sure that I embraced the work with. With others and making sure that I fully committed to doing the work that I had for my instructors and. And really taking advantage of the fact that there's a great deal of opportunity for me to learn and to benefit from opportunities within the graduate school as well. And it's a different environment as, as many people realize. And so as I've transitioned into education now, I realize this.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:07:47]: A lot of people who are working professionals, their cup is pretty full with a professional experience. And so they come in, especially in the school of management, with our, you know, kind of business focus. They come in and they have a great deal of experience, they're leaders in their fields. And you have to humber yourself a little bit in the sense that you're kind of going back to school to learn how to do something a little bit differently, learn how to think critically and learn how to develop new pathways for doing things. And so it's tough sometimes when you've been out there and you're having a little bit of success to come back and Say, okay, well, I'm no longer the master, I'm the student. It's a really important lesson for you, both with the instructor and also with your colleagues, is they all have different ways of doing things. They work for different companies, they work for different organizations, and so they're bringing their expertise, and you really need to have an opportunity to listen to what they have to say and how they do things. Because I think that that's one of the best parts about education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:08:31]: You're always listening. You find things unexpectedly, like our journeys. We find things, little nuggets of information, little ways that you never thought about doing something. And then all of a sudden you're. You're onto something really spectacular. And so humbling yourself and going back to education, fully committing yourself is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:47]: You know, it is really important and definitely something that you're going to have to do. As you said, humble yourself and know that you're going to potentially make some mistakes along the way. And you might fall, you might trip, but you have to dust yourself off and be resilient along the way as well. Talk to me about a moment, a moment in your doctorate or your master's degree where you ran up against that wall where you struggled and you had to dust yourself off and pick yourself back up. And how did you do that?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:09:15]: Some great examples of this, my colleagues in my doctoral program, in the doctoral program in particular, is an interesting one because really, it's a really different animal than even your master's degrees. And so going back into that area, I hadn't done a great deal with statistics, and I hadn't seen a lot of, you know, just basic classwork things. And I recall that just annotations, mathematical statistical annotations such as X bar, you know, what is, what is X bar? My friends laugh at me in this moment. What is X bar? And it just basically means the mean, the average of something, right? And I'm looking at the statistics and they, some of them are professional students and they don't really. They don't really recognize the fact that if you're not into this field for quite some time, even though you understand the principles of physics, you're not necessarily understanding some of the notations. And so, you know, in some of the, the quizzes, I'm confused by some of the. Just the basics of how we mark things down, what they represent, which is comical. And another instance in my doctoral program in particular, which is kind of surprising, writing a paper for an international business class.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:08]: And, you know, I thought that I was doing Particularly well in my paper. And I was just, just expanding on many different thoughts and chasing down all kinds of different ideas and jumping down every rabbit hole that I could find, which was not how you do quality research, which I came to find out. And this was really my first year and being in the doctoral program and really kind of an eye opening experience for me. It's a different type of writing, different style of writing, and a different commitment to precision and scientific process and research. And so the guy that gave me, I think, a B plus or something like that, which is not really a great grade for your doctoral studies, you know, basically, you know, kind of a wake up call for me. And he was the guy who ended up recruiting me into the program. So I think it was doubly disappointing for him and me and the mark of shame. And so I, you know, I humbled myself again.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:52]: I said, okay, Keith, what went wrong? Why didn't you do this? Well, and, and kind of learned from that lesson. And I've gone on to have a great deal of success in that, that area. My writing style has improved. I've never, never been shy about saying that I'm not a doctor in English, but you have to do a great deal of writing and, and work on your writing style even, and the idea of doing quality research and being prec. Things that you say and how you represent, Measure things. So I think those are two great experiences. And it's a, it's an arduous process going through. This is, it takes a lot of time.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:11:21]: And you know, a great story about that is that I, when I was being somewhat recruited into the doctoral program from the, the master's degree, the guy, you know, he recognized that I was pretty sharp guy. But you know, it's difficult to tell some of the things that are needed for success in your doctoral programs. But I remember him walking me into the office of the, the chair of the department and asking if I was married and, you know, talking about my lifestyle. And he's suggesting that I might not be married after I finished my doctoral. It's a, it's a large commitment and so very taxing on your life and, and a very unique experience. And so a lot of those moments will pop up along the way. And I think a lot of people don't realize that as part of their educational process is that you're going to have moments when you're down, you want to give up. And it's not just about your intelligence, it's not just about success any one particular semester.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:05]: It's you know, the journey is a long one. It often requires that you have help along the way. I had some great friends in all of my studies, both master doctoral level studies, great supporters. And so look for support along the way because I think that's a, you know, a vital aspect of this is that you will have your ups and downs. You have those moments where you feel like you've been pushed down the stairs. And if you have your family around you, you have your colleagues around you, and you have great professors and mentors and some of that is spended on your forming relationships with these people that will help you out. And it's the, the education is one element of it, but there's also a degree component of it too. So there's a lot of people that don't end up finishing their doctoral degree because they can't get through the entirety of the process of both their courses and their dissertation in same thing with a lot of degrees, you can get your education without having a degree.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:49]: And the degree is certainly worthwhile, I would say, in terms of the views of employers. So it's also probably a little bit of a black mark. If you started a program and you didn't finish it, what does that say about your employment prospects if you're looking for a job? So bear those things in mind is finishing and having the requisite support groups around you is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Talking about those supports. When you're going through graduate school, you have to balance a lot. You've got to wear a lot of hats. You've got to figure out what that balance is, whether you are working, you have a family, you have other responsibilities or commitments. Talk to me about how did you balance school, work, family, other responsibilities that you had while you were going through graduate school?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:27]: Boy, yeah, that's a tough one. You have to find your time. A lot of the people that we work with here, students in the University of Michigan Flint and School of Management, are working and family oriented. And you know, they have tough schedules. So I think a lot of that is just a bit of scheduling. So, you know, I think the things that we do with our students here is that we try to give them a routine, we try to give them predictable schedules. And as a student going through this experience, I think that's what you look for. You look for, when are the deadlines, when do I need to heavily commit myself, when is it going to be taxing on my family or take me away.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:58]: And I think that's true for just about anything that I do these days. Is That I just have to plan, you know, I have to see what's out there, look at the classes, when are things due? When is that going to really tax my schedule? And then as I'm doing right now, for instance, during the summertime, where things have lightened up a little bit, I'm like, well, I'm going to maximize my opportunities with my family. Family, or maximize my opportunities with my friends. And then I know when we come back to school, for instance, in the. In the fall, you know, things are going to ramp up and my time commitments are going to be much more heavy on the school and the focus that I have as an associate dean. The same thing was going through graduate school. You just have to look out ahead and say, okay, well, this is where I lose my family. You know, these are the moments where basically you guys are going to have to support me and know that I'm just going to go into my room or I'm going to go and do something, and you guys are going to have to find your own activities.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:14:43]: And maybe even some of that would be, you know, kind of an idea that you have too, is that right now I help with planning for my family and say, finding activities for them to do, knowing that I can't join them. And so that's a little bit of what I did then, too, is like, well, you guys can have fun. I'm not going to be there, but here's some fun for you to have. And. And I hope you guys enjoy yourselves and that you're not just, you know, waiting in another room for me. But I think that's a key element. Find out when things are due, plan your schedule around that, and try to maximize the opportunities that you do have time, because that's going to make the rest of the time a little bit easier as well, is that if you're not losing out on moments of your life when you have the. So if you have a moment, you have a day, you have a couple of days where you can do stuff with your family that you absolutely do, that you do that with your friends.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:21]: And, you know, mental health is a key element of this, too, as you learn as an adult and you go along, you know, building in times where you can recover so that you're more productive in the times when you're working heavily and focusing on your career potentially.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And every person at times can be frustrated, they can be challenged, they can go through a process of, I'm going to call it burnout, where they are pushing and pushing and pushing, and they are trying to achieve and they're achieving, but. But then they hit that, as I said earlier, that wall. How did you avoid burnout or recover from it if you ever hit that burnout phase in your own graduate school experience?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:56]: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of these moments where I envision myself in the future and I see myself days or weeks away and knowing that there's going to come a moment in time and for those of us that have gone through a great deal of education or done a lot of this accomplishments, you know that in the future there'll come a day where you'll just be able to wake up in the morning and you won't have anything to do. Pre plan, mind you, you could have things that you want to do. But I think visioning and envisioning these, these kind of future moments of times when you know it'll all be over for a brief moment in time where this too shall pass. This is a tough moment, but I think a lot of it has to do with just being open and honest and communicating with people that may be causing you pressure for burnout and saying. And that includes yourself taking moments and saying, okay, look, right Now I'm operating at 50 productivity and the best thing that I could possibly do is just stop for a couple of moments and the world will keep spinning. I think a lot of us believe that we're so central to everything that we do that we can't stop doing whatever it is that we're doing for a moment in time and recover. And that's not true. It's oftentimes not the case at all.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:16:55]: You can, you know, have people wait a few days and they'll be forgiving. And you know, this is something you just have to build into your schedule to say, okay, well I'm going to recover. And if you don't do that, then you will burn out. So I think that the lesson there is trying to avoid the burnout out. And when you get to that point where you're starting to feel it, and oftentimes it's indicated by mistakes, simple mistakes, then it's time to say, okay, well, I need a vacation. You talk with people about that. Look, I'm fatigued, I'm burning out. And just try to figure out what is the things that you absolutely need to do and to make some time for yourself and then figure out what it is that you, you like to do to recover.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:17:26]: So what is it that's going to make you recover? So I think those are key elements that help me along the way. And again, if you surround yourself with people that are familiar with the process and that are supportive, then that's going to help you out a great. Because when those times come and they will, they'll be ready to support you and they'll, they'll understand.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]: Every person has to identify and look on their own campus to find the things that will help them to be successful. Whether it's a faculty member, a specific office, a special place where they're studying, whatever it might be. Were there any campus resources or campus things that you had to rely on that and it could be organizations or resources or more that helped you in supporting your overall success?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:09]: Well, we, I think we had, when I was at Florida International University in grad school and both levels, I think we had a lot of spaces where we could collaborate. They were, you know, somewhat relaxed. And so I know that they had a Starbucks in the first floor of the library. So right as you walked in, you were, you know, walking past places where you could get caffeinated. And it was like an oasis in the middle of the university. And so, you know, we would go in there for quiet times and studying and we could find floors where we could study. And they had lots of resources versus books and databases and all kinds of things in there where, you know, I could, I could get help. And then from the perspective of what sport I had at Florida International when I was in the, in the College of Business, I think that was the other thing is that they provided a few opportunities for us to just.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:50]: We were hovering around the College of Business frequently interacting with professors and just, you know, we were just there. And whenever we needed a hand with something, we wanted to talk, the people were there. And so I would say if you provide spaces and find those spaces for you to make that work, that's a great opportunity for you to just have help when you need it. And again, you know, I keep coming back to this element of networks and friends. A lot of people that I went to school with became, you know, really good friends of mine. And so my safe space and my support group was also the people that I went to school. If I needed a hand with something, if I had a lot of friends, chances are somebody among those friends knew how to solve a problem that I didn't know how to solve or could help me. And just some cases, just the mental support of just working on a problem together.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:19:36]: If they're around and they're, you know, you, you nurture those relationships, they take of care of you as well. So you know, there was the library, of course. We have an excellent library at the University of Michigan, Flint. You know, it's beautiful, you know, and those are places that I would oftentimes go in because there are places where you could focus and study and find different levels and areas that you could find the things that you need. And they also are places that can help you find the precise resources that you need. I think a lot of us tread water sometimes looking for things and using those resources. The library, for instance, they know how to find things that you may not know are like easier ways to do things or better information and so on and so forth. So I think those are the key elements of success is I didn't end up using a lot of the counseling and psychological services.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:15]: I used my friends and my colleagues for that purposes, but they're there as well. So I would just say find your space, your college is your home. Find some sort of mentor that you're working with. You know, we all have mentors that we, we have with, with our faculty and find your network of friends and colleagues that you work well with and can support you. And they can also direct you to campus resources as well. We offer a ton of support here at the University of Michigan, Flint. I would think that those opportunities are out there for people to exploit and a lot of times they don't, but they should. So, you know, for my studies, I realized that that that is a huge time saving component of doing any of your work is leveraging the resources that universities provide.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:52]: We provide them for a reason. Right. So there's a reason why they're there. And sometimes we don't capitalize as much as we can. And certainly in my journeys, I would say I probably learned that lesson along the way. So I would encourage everybody to learn that quicker than I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:04]: It definitely is a learning process and you have to kind of get those bumps and bruises along the way to be able to come out out unscathed in the end. But hopefully by listening and learning from people like you and the experience that you've had, you can avoid some of those as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:21]: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: Going through a program like a business program, there may have been opportunities to be able to get that real world experience you talked about, the opportunities to be able to connect with people from all over the place with lots of different backgrounds. And that's one of the benefits of going through graduate school. Talk to me about those interactions and how those helped you to become who you are, are today.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:42]: Yeah, I mean, I have some wonderful stories about that. So, you know, one of the first opportunities that I had with a kind of a internship consulting experience with my grad school is that a lot of people may not know this, but I went as part of a supply chain class and worked for what we called, I think at the time, the Drive 25 for Spirit Airlines. And so the airline formerly known as Spirit that has gone by the wayside, and this was back in 2007, 2008, and we did a project where we went from Miami, I think we flew out of the Fort Lauderdale airport up to Orlando, where they had a central hub, and we wanted to look for their operations. And so what Spirit Airlines does is they. They make their money, or they did. They make their money from basically keeping the planes in the air as fast as you possibly can. And so one of the first things that we noticed is that everything was being reimbursed for them at the company, but they wanted us to, I guess, pay for check on checked luggage. And so what you ended up seeing, and this was a very unique thing.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:22:36]: A lot of people that are looking at this probably don't have any work world other than paying for all of your luggage all over the place for the lower fare aircraft and airlines. And so when we did this, the first thing that we do is we don't. We had small bags. We're just hopping up to Orlando to do some consulting work on their operations. We'll just take them onto the airplane. And so as soon as you get into the terminal in the gate, you see some of the problem that's occurring. And this is basically, it takes them an hour to an hour and a half to get people on and off the airplane, which is not something which is good for economy carriers. And so this is consulting work where we're looking at how fast they load their gas.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:07]: Gas and check their safety and all kinds of stuff. But the thing that is readily apparent is they have a policy of basically charging for checked bags, which forces people to want to bring them onto the aircraft, which means that everybody's got. Every time I tell the story, it gets larger and larger that the people have got goats and chickens that they're bringing onto the. Onto the plane because they don't want to check any of the things they have. And they've just got so much stuff that it's taking forever. And this is like an. You know, I keep talking about this experience because, you know, you see the policies that Spirit put into place and other airlines have put into place and whether or not they worked and they didn't work, but we did consulting work for airlines and working tightly with my colleagues, working with catering experiences and understanding, like, you know, culture and. And later on in my doctoral studies, I did work for Service Employees International Union.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:50]: And, you know, we had financial crisis in some of the larger healthcare systems in Miami. And there's lots of benefits that come from that. Both you learning about how various operations work, but also getting experience and to working with colleagues and how they work and how they operate and learning how to basically improve the way that you interact with a lot of other people. So I think that's a key area that you should capitalize on whenever you're going to grad school, is take advantage of the opportunities and the connections that a lot of the universities have with organizations for real world learning experiences. The thing that I love about teaching in the graduate programs is all of the stories, every problem that comes up, especially in management, when we're talking in a classroom of what somebody themselves is going through from a personally challenging experience with their organization, their business, and then trying to solve that in a way that's readily translated into the class subject matter. So this is an excellent opportunity to get lots of perspectives with a lot of people going through similar challenges as you. And the only thing that you really, you know, make sure that you're aware of, you're not taking advantage of internships and things of that nature, as I mentioned, and take advantage of the opportunity to voice your concerns, voice your challenges with your organization, and speak in class, because these are bits of information that are worthy of conversation and solutions. So speak up.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:01]: And this will be an excellent opportunity for you to learn and also teach. So there's a lot of teaching that goes on. A lot of the teaching that goes on at the graduate level in particular comes from the students themselves and the classmates that you have. What do they do in this situation? What challenges are they having? And you get together and you form strong groups of solving challenges and problems. So internships are great. You can find some strange ones along the way. And you find yourself in a strange moment in history with Spirit Airlines, as I did. And I never thought at the time that I would have all these great stories about Spirit Airlines.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:27]: And there they were because of where I was in the world, their geographic location, some of their hubs, but also some of the policies that they put in place. And the aftermath of that. And they still never really got a hold of their operations, but some of their policies, they either had to stop covering the. The prices for checking their bags or they had to charge for bringing things on the plane. And we know which one they chose in that one. They chose for charging for your carry on bags so that people would limit the amount of stuff they brought onto the plane so they could basically bring in the aircraft and they could push the aircraft back and essentially it was 40 minutes in order to be profitable. So they actually did that fairly well. But they, they still had some issues with canceling their flights and a whole bunch of other stuff which is interesting to see.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:04]: I think that's an excellent part about being in grad school too, is that a lot of professionals are working at moments in time in history with their organizations that are interesting. I've gone through so many experiences here where, where people are dealing with wage compression and Covid and had personal issues with the Flint water crisis here. And you know, many years ago we've had all these challenges within organizations that we've gone through together and we've all talked about. And that's an excellent opportunity for you to kind of vet your experiences, share your experiences, get feedback and we all power through together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: Now, as you think back to your graduate school experiences, what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:40]: I would say going back and just building on the networking capital, taking more opportunities of that. I think that I had a great situation where things naturally evolved, where I kind of have a network of people that emerged out of the graduate programs and I seem seemingly was lucky. So in reflection, I would say I was probably more lucky in that regard that if I had gone back in time and, and somebody told me, well Keith, you really need to focus on your network. This is right about the time that Facebook is coming along and you know, LinkedIn, I don't know that that had been heard of when I went to my first graduate program. A lot of these things that we recognize now as being part of how we operate, building in good relationships and making sure that you nurture those relationships and you don't take them for granted. When you have opportunities to meet people from all, all over the organizational spectrum and really develop these relationships that carry on to the future. Now it doesn't really affect me too much in the sense that I've kind of gone into academia and most of my colleagues from this period of time outside of the doctoral program have gone into, you know, they developed themselves professionally and they're working for large real estate companies or they're doing agency work for soccer organizations or whatever it happens to be. But had I gone and developed some of These relationships a little bit better, you could capitalize on them from a number of different perspectives.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:27:52]: So I think that's the key, is that the education is good for the actual lessons that you have in your class. But especially at the graduate level, I would say that your opportunities to share experiences and to build up your network so that you can reach out to people in the future that may have jobs or that you may want to hire. In addition to that, just the overall reaching out for mentorship and mental support, I think that matters a great deal too, is that if you build up your network, there a lot of people that you can reach out to are people that you just talk about a problem and they don't have to solve it for you, but they've been there before and they can hear you. And so I think that also helps with avoiding burnout and mental fatigue. And as you go up, you know what? A lot of us go to graduate school because we're trying to rise up in organizations and take more responsibility. And a lot of us that get into these roles of more responsibility realize that having good colleagues and friends that you can just talk with every once in a while, building mentor relationships, you know, that can be cross mentor relationships will help you through some tough times, times. And the more people that you have like that, the better they can provide resources. But the most important resource of all is probably just their time and being able to listen and talk through a problem and sometimes just unwind about a problem from a professional perspective or from a friend perspective.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:01]: So I wish that I had nurtured some of my relationships a little bit better so I'd have more of those people. I was lucky. But if I had been more deliberate my efforts and more calculating, I probably could have a lot more friends across the spectrum of organizations all over the world that are those sorts of friends. Not. Not just the Facebook acquaintances or just somebody that I just went to school with and I casually know, but good friends, people that you talk with frequently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:23]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate school experiences, what are some additional tips outside of what you've already said, that you might offer others considering graduate education, whether it's in business or some other area that would help them find success sooner.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:37]: Yeah. So I think that key element is trying to figure out what exactly are you going to school for and what is your end game. I feel like that's one thing that in my life, I haven't done as well. Well, the things that I've accomplished, I feel at some level have kind of Found me. And I know those things are kind of interlaced with your background and your, your work and your efforts and whatnot. But I would say making sure that you do your research, you find out about each program, what's it going to be like? You know, what are all the resources you indicated? There's all these resources that universities provide and programs provide, and there's multiple elements associated with going through a graduate program in terms of the time of the class and, you know, the cost of any program. That's a, that's another. When can I finish? How often are classes, classes offered? A lot of us want to go to school and we're not considering all the little elements associated with the value of education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:30:23]: And value, as you mentioned earlier, is like, well, how do you balance going to school with your commitments to your family and your friends and other things? So some of those things are important as well. So the value that your education can provide is providing you with a, you know, kind of a structured system in which case you can plan for those opportunities to be with your family and take advantage of opportunities that you have. And that's kind of hidden balance value, scholarship. And I'm coming from a background of, you know, the school of management and a business person. So everything I look at is return on investment, you know, what do you want out of your education? Can this education provide that? And what are all the hidden costs associated with education? And some of that is just not being consistent with scheduling and not providing flexibility and not providing a lot of things that also people are balancing when they're going back to grad school in particular, you know, so it's not as though our undergraduates don't have oftentimes jobs or families they're committed to and other things, but in grad school, typically you're going to school school and you're already in the, the midst of a full career and a family and other things, then you need to really balance those things as well. So planning and investigating, you know, asking all kinds of questions, you know, ask more questions than you think you should. So if you go to an event and people are not asking questions, ask questions. If you go to an event and people are asking questions, ask questions.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:31:34]: And if you feel like you've already asked a question, we'll ask another one. And so don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you feel necessary to get the answer that you want, want about what your experience will be like. And you never really know, of course, but we're looking for some level of predictability in terms of our return on investment and you know, what sorts of resources are you going to get for supporting you along that journey and how does that fit with your life? And so just say those are things that I would definitely encourage people to do. Do a lot more planning than I did. I think in some of my educational journey, a lot more investigation, I think that pays off a great deal. So don't have analysis paralysis as they say. Don't wait forever in order to make your decision because there's always going to be challenges and always going to be some issues. Issue is associated with any degree or education or any other thing that you do in life.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:32:17]: That's imperfect. But do your due diligence beforehand and doing a proper investigation and figure out what suits you as best as you can and what you're trying to get at, what's your purpose in your education? So I think that that's a key element why exactly you're going back to school, what do you want? And then you know, you talk about those things with the people that can help you along the way. Because if you're trying to get a promotion at your current job, you're trying to switch your careers, most of the people that are supporting you are not calling up your boss or you know, they're not trying to out your plans, but they can help you and say, okay, well focus on these things that can get you where you want to be and everybody's here to help you. And that's the point of a lot of this education is we're here to help. And I guess I don't realize that sometimes when I went through my education is that you think it's just very one way street. But a lot of people are there to help you and interactions that you have with them is very beneficial.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:03]: Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your own journey and for helping others to be able to maneuver through their journey through what you've experienced. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:33:14]: Thank you so much for having me and I wish everyone who is listening the best in their own educational journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.