Victors in Grad School

Burnout—the secret companion of graduate students everywhere. It lurks beneath heavy workloads, late nights, and the constant push to excel. But what is burnout really, and why is it so common among those in graduate programs? The latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast takes a deep dive into this pressing topic, offering both clarity and comfort for students navigating the tough terrain of higher education.

In this powerful discussion, Maryam Krob, outreach intern for CAPS and a current grad student herself, joins Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at University of Michigan Flint, to explore what it means to burn out—and, more importantly, how to bounce back.

One of the central messages is that burnout isn't a personal failure or weakness. As Maryam Krob emphasizes, it's a natural response to sustained, high-pressure environments where intense coursework, practicums, employment, and financial stress all converge. She points out that burnout is not a formal diagnosis, yet its effects are deeply real: emotional, mental, and physical exhaustion that accumulates over time. It's possible to be performing well on paper while feeling completely depleted inside.

The podcast digs into major research findings, shedding light on the multiple factors fueling burnout. Graduate students are often non-traditional, juggling roles as students, employees, caregivers, and more. High demands paired with limited resources increase the risk, especially when financial worries and competing commitments pile up.

So, what helps? Maryam Krob highlights the importance of social support—peers, mentors, friends, and family are essential to reducing feelings of isolation. Setting boundaries between work and rest, prioritizing sleep, and embracing restorative activities (yes, even those "unproductive" hobbies!) are crucial. The episode also discusses the value of adaptive coping strategies like problem-solving and reframing negative thoughts.

Dr. Christopher Lewis reinforces that burnout isn't exclusive to grad school; it's a challenge that can pop up throughout life. Recognizing its stages early allows for effective intervention and recovery, making it possible not just to survive, but to thrive.

Whether you're a current student, considering graduate school, or simply burned out by life's demands, this episode offers empathy, knowledge, and practical strategies to help you "burn bright" without burning out. Listen now for insights that just might transform your journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hi everyone. I am Dr. Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited that you're here tonight to learn a little bit more about a very important topic that a lot of graduate students deal with in their time in graduate school, and that comes down to burnout. And many of us have that happen to us, no matter if we're in grad school or in just in general in life. And we have to have coping mechanisms and ways in which we can deal with that. So I'm really excited to be able to have Maryam Krohbe with us today. And Maryam works in our CAPS office, in our counseling office on campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: And I'll let her introduce herself more to you as well. But I'm really excited that she's here to talk about this important topic. And I'll turn it over to you, Maryam.

Maryam Krob [00:00:57]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Hello everyone and welcome to this lecture on burnout, burning bright or burning out. My name is Maryam and I'm a current— the current outreach intern for CAPS. I'm also a student here on campus getting my master's in social work, and I'm really happy to be here talking with my fellow graduate students about something that many of us can relate to. So please feel comfortable during this session, no need to turn your cameras on or anything like that, whatever makes you relax and focus. I'll just be asking a few questions throughout the lecture too to get us thinking and reflecting because I think many of us share experience with this topic. The purpose of today's lecture is to better understand burnout and recognize the signs.

Maryam Krob [00:01:37]: We'll also explore ways to prevent moving into the later stages of burnout and talk about how to recover if you're already experiencing it. And lastly, I'll share some campus resources that can help support graduate students, and we'll leave some time for discussion. But before we begin, I want to clarify something important. Burnout is not a formal diagnosis in the DSM, but it is a very real experience. Burnout often occurs after prolonged or severe stress and can leave people feeling emotionally, mentally, and physically drained. This is especially relevant for graduate students. Many of us are balancing practicum placements, intense coursework, jobs, financial stress, and other responsibilities. You can be doing well academically or professionally and still feel exhausted and overwhelmed.

Maryam Krob [00:02:22]: Experiencing burnout is not a personal failure. It is often a response to sustained pressure and high demands. Today, I'll cover the topics I mentioned earlier, and I encourage you to talk— take what resonates with you and leave the rest. Burnout is often shaped by a culture that prioritizes productivity over rest and well-being. While we can't always control those larger systems, there are some individual strategies that can help us, as well as campus resources that are here to support you. So, you're gonna hear me say this a few times throughout the lecture, but I want to just make it clear that burnout is not a personal failure. Burnout refers to emotional, mental, and physical exhaustion that develops after prolonged stress. It's not something that happens because you're weak or because you've done something wrong.

Maryam Krob [00:03:09]: The term burnout was first introduced in the 1970s by psychologist Herbert Freudenberger, who originally used it to describe exhaustion among people working in helping professions. But today we know burnout affects many different groups, including graduate students. So graduate students often juggle a lot of responsibilities at the same time: coursework, practicum placement, jobs, financial stress, research, and personal obligations. Because of that, it's very possible to be doing well on the outside, meeting deadlines, performing well academically, keeping up with responsibilities, and still feeling completely drained internally. But you are not alone. Over 55% of university students have experienced academic burnout as well, according to the research paper I read. So burnout builds over time, and it's a result of long-term stress, not just one difficult week. And because it develops gradually, recovery also takes time.

Maryam Krob [00:04:06]: So many graduate students look very different from what we often think of the traditional student. A traditional student might just be starting their academic and career journey. Graduate students, however, may already have reached several milestones professionally or academically, and many are also balancing family responsibilities or other complex life roles. Having these experiences can actually be a huge benefit. Many graduate students bring valuable life and work experience to their programs, which can be incredibly helpful in practicum settings. For example, I've talked to many of my peers who are working in practicum placements and already are excelling in areas like documentation, writing SOAP notes, or communicating with clients because they bring previous experiences into these roles. At the same time, graduate students are often balancing many roles at once. Someone might be a student, a caregiver, a facilitator in a practicum, an employee, or a partner or a parent.

Maryam Krob [00:05:04]: Many people have others depending on them while they're still trying to meet the demands of their program. Another challenge is the combination of high expectations and limited resources. Being a student often means having less time and fewer financial resources while still needing to meet demanding academic and professional expectations. Work and school schedules can also make it difficult to stay connected with core social support systems. Most of us are here because we're passionate about what we are studying, but it's also okay to acknowledge that balancing all of these roles can sometimes make you feel overwhelmed or even a little burnt out. So, what does the research say about burnout? Research supports what many students experience. A recent systematic review examining students' burnout across multiple countries and student populations found that burnout is influenced by several interconnected factors, including academic environment, social support, and coping strategies. For example, the review found that a supportive educational environment plays an important role in mediating burnout because it helps meet students' psychological and emotional needs.

Maryam Krob [00:06:15]: The research also highlights that family support and social engagement are protective factors. Strong support systems can help reduce feelings of isolation and cynicism, which are common components of burnout. Another important finding is that coping strategies matter. Students who use more adaptive coping approaches, such as problem-solving, emotional processing, or cognitive reframing tend to experience lower levels of burnout compared to those relying on more maladaptive coping strategies. Overall, the research suggests that burnout is not just an individual issue. It is often shaped by systems, environments, and the resources available to students. Research often conceptualizes burnout as having 3 major components. The most widely used framework comes from the Maslach burnout model, which describes burnout as involving emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, and reduced personal accomplishment.

Maryam Krob [00:07:13]: Emotional exhaustion refers to feeling drained or overwhelmed. Depersonalization refers to becoming detached or cynical about worker responsibilities. So it's more— it's not to do like with the actual diagnosis of having depersonalization, but this is just the term that they use. Reduced personal accomplishments refers to feeling ineffective or like your efforts are not meaningful. These dimensions together help researchers measure burnout and understand how it develops over time. High expectations, limited resources. One major contributor to burnout for graduate students is the combination of high expectations and limited resources. Graduate programs often involve intense coursework where students are expected to read, write, and produce high-quality work on tight timelines.

Maryam Krob [00:08:05]: Many programs also require practicum or internship placements, where students are gaining real-world experience while also balancing academic responsibilities. On top of that, many graduate students are also working jobs, sometimes multiple jobs, in order to support themselves financially while completing their program. This can lead to financial stress, which adds another layer of pressure. Graduate school often requires a significant time investment, which can make it harder to earn income or maintain financial stability. When all of these responsibilities stack together, students often end up with reduced time for rest, hobbies, and relationships, which are actually some of the most important protective factors for mental health. The term burnout, as I previously mentioned, was introduced in the early '70s by psychologist Herbert Freudenberger. Freudenberger first described burnout in 1974 after observing emotional exhaustion, loss of motivation, and frustration among volunteers working at a free clinic in New York. These workers were highly dedicated to helping others but were experiencing overwhelming stress and fatigue.

Maryam Krob [00:09:14]: Because of this, burnout was originally associated with helping professions such as healthcare workers, social workers, and counselors— fields where people are deeply invested in caring for others. Over time, researchers realized that burnout can occur in many different environments, including education, corporate workplaces, and academic settings. Today, burnout is generally understood as a response to chronic workplace or role-related stress that has not been successfully managed. It's also important to clarify that although burnout is widely studied in psychology and occupational health, it is not classified as a formal mental disorder in the DSM. Instead, it's considered a work-related occupational phenomenon. Research across multiple countries and student populations shows that burnout is a serious concern among students. A recent systematic review found that burnout is influenced by several interconnected factors, including the academic environment, social support systems, and coping strategies. For example, supportive educational environments can help meet students' psychological and emotional needs and reduce burnout risk.

Maryam Krob [00:10:26]: Family support and social engagement are also important protective factors because they can reduce isolation and cynicism. Research also shows that the ways students cope with stress matter. Adaptive coping strategies can help buffer burnout, while maladaptive coping strategies can make it worse. This research helps us understand that burnout is not simply an individual issue; it is often shaped by environments, systems, and support available to students. Contributing factors. Burnout typically develops from multiple contributing factors rather than a single cause. Many of these factors are related to the work or academic environment. For example, high workload combined with limited resources can create situations where expectations exceed the time or support available.

Maryam Krob [00:11:14]: Burnout can also increase when people experience low control over their work, such as micromanagement or limited autonomy in how they complete their tasks. Another contributor is high pressure paired with low reward, where individuals feel they are putting in significant effort but receive little recognition, compensation, or appreciation in return. Research also shows that perception of fairness and equity matter. If people feel they are being treated unfairly or held to inconsistent expectations, burnout risk can increase. Another factor is values mismatch, when someone's personal values or motivations do not align with the environment they're working within. Social factors also play an important role. A lack of supportive community or feelings of isolation can make stress much harder to manage. Modern stressors like digital overload, constant email messages, and notifications can also make it difficult to disconnect and recover.

Maryam Krob [00:12:18]: Finally, coping strategies matter. Maladaptive coping strategies, strategies such as avoidance or chronic overworking, can worsen burnout over time. Burnout rarely happens all at once. Instead, it usually develops gradually over time. Many researchers describe burnout as a progression where stress slowly accumulates and begins to affect how we think, feel, and behave. Early in the process, people may experience a compulsion to prove themselves. This can look like overworking, taking too many responsibilities, or feeling like you constantly need to prove your worth. As stress continues, people may move into denial of emerging problems.

Maryam Krob [00:12:58]: At this stage, individuals might notice that they're exhausted or overwhelmed, but push those feelings aside and continue working. Over time, this can lead to valuing yourself less, where people begin to question their abilities to feel like they are not doing enough, even when they're putting in significant effort. If burnout continues without intervention, it can eventually lead to full burnout, which can feel like emotional shutdown, extreme exhaustion, or disengagement from work or studies. There are also observable signs that burnout may be developing. These can include difficulty saying no, blurred boundaries between work and personal time, neglecting basic needs like sleep or meals, pulling away from social connections, and experiencing both emotional and physical exhaustion. Recognizing these signs early is important because it allows people to intervene before burnout reaches more severe stages. I wanted to share a quote from a graduate student from Reddit. I chose Reddit because people tend to be a little bit less filtered on there.

Maryam Krob [00:13:59]: And I found this person where they describe working 70 to 75 hours a week, running on caffeine and adrenaline, and struggling to complete assignments because they feel completely frozen and exhausted. I feel like this could probably be pretty relatable to people. It's pretty relatable to me, especially when reading about this student. It seems like they have like a break coming up, so they've accomplished all these things within their program, but now they just have one like small assignment left, but they just feel frozen because they're extremely burnt out. So I also want to briefly acknowledge that burnout doesn't happen within a vacuum. Our social identities and life circumstances can shape how stress shows up in our lives. So from a feminist and cultural perspective, some students may carry additional expectations and responsibilities outside of school. For example, some students may be balancing caretaking responsibilities such as caring for children, family members, or supporting others in the household.

Maryam Krob [00:14:55]: For example, for me, I'm in a graduate program, I have an internship, but I'm also the only woman within my household. So even though I might be pulled in like a lot of directions, it's kind of the expectation that I take care of household duties. And this is not the fault of the people I live with. It's just kind of how the social environment shaped this kind of setup we have. There can also be cultural or gender expectations around managing both home and professional responsibilities, which can create additional pressure. So some students may also be navigating microaggressions, racial stress, or systemic barriers. Which can add an additional emotional burden alongside academic responsibilities. And beyond the academic environment, we are all living in a broader social context where political stress, social tensions, and uncertainty can also affect our mental and emotional energy.

Maryam Krob [00:15:52]: I'm sure we all have been tuning into the news here and there, and that can definitely add extreme stress too. When we look at burnout through this lens, it helps us understand that burnout is often connected to systems and environments, not just individual efforts or motivation. So I want to pause again before we move forward, and I just want to repeat that sometimes burnout can feel like a personal failure, or we might tell ourselves we're just being lazy, but often what we're actually seeing is a result of prolonged stress and overwhelming demands. If you've ever questioned whether your exhaustion has been laziness rather than burnout. I know I can relate to this often, like the times that I do get to rest, I kind of feel like I'm doubting myself. I am not performing the way I should be even on the days that I'm supposedly supposed to relax. I also wanted to ask, which factors do you feel contribute most to your stress as a graduate student? Home responsibilities. Yes, it's like you go from 9 AM to 5 to do your job, and then after 5, you have 2 hours to do your homework, and then you remember, oh yes, I have to cook dinner for everyone.

Maryam Krob [00:17:06]: Haley says, I feel a combination of academic workload and financial stress are the most difficult for me. Yes, I definitely can relate to that too, especially like the, the financial stress because In the graduate level, more than likely you have an internship and that internship requires like a certain amount of hours. So maybe you're doing 13 hours of your internship and then maybe you have 20 hours or less. Well, for me it was like 15 hours of work and sometimes that can really cause intense financial stress too. And then I see Joanne has said work and home. So I definitely, I can see that it's not just one thing that's burning us out. It's not just, oh, School is burning us out. It's the combination of things.

Maryam Krob [00:17:53]: And then Shannon says, I'm not trying to go into debt, so I'm working multiple jobs. I definitely hear you. I'm only laughing just because there was a point last month, because I was transitioning from one job to another, that I was actually having 4 jobs. It's kind of just a necessary thing you have to be in, in order to make it through, but it's okay. We're in school. This part is supposed to be stressful, but I'll also get into things like protective factors and ways to combat burnout, because even though it's normal for graduate students to have this kind of level of workload, it doesn't mean that you have to be like carrying it and burning yourself out completely. So let's continue. Thank you so much for everyone's participation, by the way.

Maryam Krob [00:18:42]: So, like I said previously, that burnout is not a personal failure. Burnout is often framed as a personal problem, like someone isn't organized enough, motivated enough, or strong enough. But research shows that burnout usually depends— develops when high demands are paid with limited resources, time, or support. For many graduate students, that can look like balancing coursework, practicum placements, employment, financial stress, and personal responsibilities all at once. And we already, like, discovered that together in the chat. But recognizing burnout early is important because it allows us to address it before it becomes severe and before entering, like, cynicism. So the— we're gonna get to the bright side, don't worry. So prevention and recovery protective factors.

Maryam Krob [00:19:37]: Research on burnout consistently shows that certain protective factors can help buffer against chronic stress and reduce the risk of burnout. One of the strongest protective factors is social support. Feeling connected to peers, mentors, friends, or family can reduce feelings of isolation and help people process stress more effectively. So part of getting burnout is also like part of the phases is like isolating yourself because you might have like an odd schedule, like you're up all night studying, or you just don't necessarily identify with those people as much because of like the slightly different lifestyle that you're living. But as much as burnout tries to isolate you, it's actually reconnecting with your support systems that keeps you from burning out. So like your friend or your family or whatnot, it's okay to sit down with them and be like, hey, I just wanted to talk really second— for a second and just talk about a little bit of stress that I was having. And just like inviting that space to reconnect with your support systems. Let's see, another important factor is the ability to maintain boundaries between work and rest.

Maryam Krob [00:20:58]: Graduate students often work long hours, but having some separation between academic responsibilities and personal time is important for recovery. Sleep and physical recovery also plays a major role. Chronic sleep deprivation can worsen emotional emotional exhaustion and makes stress harder to regulate. So similarly to like how if you don't have good sleep for like a couple days, you notice that it kind of takes you a little bit of time to recover from that. It's kind of the same with burnout too. It takes a little bit of time to recover. It's not something that just happens overnight. Engaging in restorative activities such as spending time in nature, hobbies, or mindfulness practices can help regulate the nervous system and provide mental breaks from academic pressure.

Maryam Krob [00:21:48]: Research also highlights the role of adaptive coping strategies such as problem-solving, cognitive reframing, and emotional processing. These strategies help people respond to stress more effectively than avoidance or overworking. Finally, burnout is strongly influenced by environmental factors, so supportive academic or workplace environments can make a significant difference in preventing burnout. These protective factors don't eliminate stress completely, but they can help buffer its impact and support long-term well-being. So yeah, just take a second and just think to yourself the times and the things that you do that, like your hobbies and whatnot, or even the times that you get to spend outside, maybe when we had this fake spring, and just like, just think about how that did make you feel supported a bit and just feel more you versus being burnt out. So definitely lean into your hobbies, even if you don't feel like they're productive. They will help support your goals, essentially. So one thing I used to have guilt about is like, I really like art making.

Maryam Krob [00:22:56]: I really like adult coloring. And there were times that I felt that was a bit childish. But in reality, if it supports your like well-being and makes you and supports your rest and recovery, then it's very necessary and very important, just as important as the job that makes you money or your academic achievements as well. And please remember that support is available and you don't have to navigate burnout alone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]: Well, Maryam, I just want to say thank you for sharing all of this. Burnout is something that is not going to just impact you in your graduate school life. It will creep back in. I'm not saying that to scare anybody. It is just The nature of the beast. And there are going to be times in life where things will be more challenging, and graduate school can definitely be one of those. So it's important to know how to manage those things, how to identify strategies to be able to handle things when times do get tough. And everything that you shared today was great, Maryam.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:59]: I really appreciate you taking the time to walk us through all of this. I've known about burnout for a long time, but I didn't know all of the historical aspects of it. So I found that to be really interesting. But I really appreciate you sharing what you shared today, for taking the time to be able to help all of us, and wish you all the best.

Maryam Krob [00:24:19]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:21]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

If you're considering graduate school, or are currently navigating its unique challenges, you'll find inspiration and practical guidance in the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School." Host Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, sits down with Eliza Hogan, a UM-Flint graduate now pursuing her PhD in mathematics at Wesleyan University. Their conversation unpacks not only how to choose the right program, but also how to thrive once you arrive.

A key theme that emerges from Eliza Hogan's story is the importance of intentionality on your academic journey. From as early as high school, she set her sights on becoming a math professor, diving deep into career research and seeking out mentors. Her journey underscores the value of being proactive—interviewing those in your chosen field and participating in career-prep activities even before entering college.

Choosing a graduate program is a process itself. Eliza Hogan highlights the need for thorough research, weighing program size, funding opportunities, and the community atmosphere. Her experience demonstrates the significance of mentorship and peer advice: consulting professors and older students helped her refine her list and ultimately led her to discover Wesleyan, a place that fit her academic needs and personal aspirations.

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate life can be daunting, and Eliza Hogan candidly discusses the increased demand for self-motivation and the need to build your own support systems. The episode touches on imposter syndrome, a common hurdle in academia, and how reaching out to mentors and supportive peers is critical for overcoming self-doubt.

Balance is another central topic. For Eliza Hogan, establishing a sustainable routine—including fitness, social time, and healthy eating—was essential to her wellbeing and academic success. She also shares how being a teaching assistant not only supported her education financially, but also enriched her preparation for a career in academia.

Whether you're in STEM or another field, the advice to maintain passions outside your studies and build resilience resonates. Real, honest stories like Eliza Hogan's make this episode a must-listen for anyone contemplating or living the graduate school experience.

Tune in to this insightful episode to gather practical strategies, hear firsthand experiences, and feel empowered to carve your own path to success in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we have an opportunity to work together to work through this journey that you're on, because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school is going through their own personal journey. And I call it a journey because from no matter where you are, there are things that you can do to be able to not only prepare yourself, but really prepare yourself for success sooner. And a lot of people don't think about that ahead of getting into a program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: And sometimes you wait until you get in the program, and then you're like, I wish I would have known. And that's why this podcast exists. It exists to help you to be able to start thinking about graduate school sooner, or if you're in graduate school, to jump right in and help you as you're working toward that, that light at the end of the tunnel that's going to help you to find that success that you want in that journey that you're on. And every week, I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can share their own experiences with you. Sometimes they're, they're in graduate school. Sometimes they've been out of graduate school for a bit of time. And no matter what their journey has been, they are sharing their own experiences with you to help you define that success. And today we've got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: Eliza Hogan is with us, and Eliza is a past University of Michigan Flint graduate, but she is currently working on her PhD in mathematics at at Wesleyan University. I'm really excited to be able to have her here and for her to share some of her own experiences with you. Eliza, thanks so much for being here.

Eliza Hogan [00:01:55]: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to talk today with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I said that you are in a PhD program at Wesleyan University. And I know that you finished off your bachelor's degree in mathematics From the University of Michigan Flint back in 2024. And then you went on and you decided at some point in that journey while you were going through undergrad that you weren't done. You wanted to continue on and work on the next step and moving to the next part of your journey. Bring me back to that moment where you said to yourself, I'm not done and I wanna move on. What was it that made you decide that graduate school was that next step for you?

Eliza Hogan [00:02:39]: So honestly, we have to rewind a little bit more because all the way back when I was a freshman in high school, I went to the Genesee Early College High School. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's actually a high school that's based on the U of M Flint campus, an early college program. And back all the way in 9th grade in 2018, I think, I was doing a career readiness thing. You know how you do in high school, they tell you, okay, let's figure out what type of career you might want, and you have to kind of do assignments. I think I had to write a paper about what career I wanted and all the steps you have to take for it. And at the time, I knew that I liked teaching math, and I knew I really liked math in general, but I kind of knew I maybe didn't really want to teach like young kids, and even high school didn't sound too appealing to me. So I just thought, okay, I'll just become a math professor, you know, 14-year-old Eliza, how hard can it be to become a math professor? So in my research, I figured out, okay, I need a math PhD in order to become a professor of math. So, okay, that's what I'm going to do.

Eliza Hogan [00:03:42]: And actually, For part of that assignment, I was required to interview someone that was in the career field, and I actually was able to interview— my brother was a student at U of M Flint taking math classes, and he had Dr. Caulfield. He's one of the math professors at U of M Flint. He's amazing. And so I actually did an interview with him way, way back and got some answers about what it's like to be a math professor. So all the way back in high school is when I decided I wanted to So you

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: started way back then, and you're going through your undergraduate work. You continue moving toward that goal. You're getting toward the end of your degree, and you still are moving toward that goal. And just like when you're trying to decide where you're going to go for your undergraduate degree, you have to do your research. You have to look around and identify what program seems like the best fit for you. And there are PhDs in mathematics programs across the nation, and you probably could have chosen to go in many different directions. different directions. You chose to go to Wesleyan University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:44]: Talk to me about that search process for yourself and what you were looking for, but also what ultimately made you decide that Wesleyan was the right place for you.

Eliza Hogan [00:04:54]: Yeah, so I started seriously doing research on which PhD programs I would apply to in my last year of undergrad, and I actually kind of just started— so there's something called the AMS Groupings for Mathematics, and it's basically a list of every single PhD/master's programs offered in the United States, and they give a ranking. I mean, it's— who knows how accurate that ranking is, but so they have like the top-ranked schools, maybe some middle-ranked schools, and I honestly just started there knowing that I didn't want to go anywhere too far from home. I didn't really want to go to the West Coast. That was a bit too far for me. So I'm kind of looking at Midwest, East Coast schools, and I think I had a list of, I don't know, 15 or 20 schools, and I made a Google spreadsheet listing all the things, did research on what kind of professors are at certain schools, whether or not the programs are fully funded, all these things. Because I knew I needed to go to a program that guarantees funding for anyone that they accept because it wasn't an option for me to not be funded financially. And so actually, I think the first pass I had of schools, Wesleyan was not on there because I had really never heard of it. And so what I did was I was working very closely with Dr.

Eliza Hogan [00:06:09]: Cameron McLeeman, the head of the, you know, Natural Sciences Division. At the time, I think he was just like the head of the math department. He's great. I worked with him a lot, and I showed him my list, and he was like, okay. He kind of helped me refine it— which ones of these are maybe too high of a reach, you know, maybe I won't be getting into MIT, those sorts of things. And he kind of just off the hand was like, oh, you should add Wesleyan to your list, because he works really closely and does research with one of the professors here at Wesleyan. And he was like, oh, they have a really good program and I know one of the people there, you should add that to your list. And I had never heard of it.

Eliza Hogan [00:06:44]: I did some research and I started to realize I kind of really like this program because the thing that I really liked about Wesleyan was that it's kind of a medium size, I would say. Maybe to some people they'd say it was a small program, but coming from U of M Flint, my classes, especially in the math department, were pretty small. And I was used to having really close relationships, especially like with Dr. Cam, Dr. Caulfield, who I've mentioned. I had very close relationships with my professors, and I knew if I went to a big school that might not be able to be the case. And so Wesleyan was looking like the perfect size. It was looking great.

Eliza Hogan [00:07:16]: So I applied, and, uh, it was one of the few schools that I was accepted to and just ended up being the winner of them all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:24]: Now, every person that makes that jump, leaving one school where you're comfortable, you understand how you're being educated, the— what the expectations are of faculty— when you move into a master's or a doctorate program, the expectations are very different. The education is very different. What you're being asked to do And not to do is very different as well. And you have to go through this process of being able to transition, and you make that transition from being an undergraduate student into a graduate student. So talk to me about that journey for yourself thus far, and what did you have to do as you were transitioning into your PhD program? And what have you had to do as you now are in your second year of the program? What have you had to do to continue to find success through both that transition in and through the graduate program thus far?

Eliza Hogan [00:08:18]: Yeah, so I would say for me, the biggest difference between undergrad and graduate studies, aside from, you know, there's obviously big life changes, okay, I had to move across the country and live on my own for the first time, that was obviously a big lifestyle transition. But as far as strictly academically, I would say the biggest difference is how self-motivated you have to be. In undergrad, you kind of experience that for the first time. I mean, your professors are working with you and you have advisors that help you, but it's not like high school where, you know, you're gonna get in trouble, your parents get to see your report card, obviously. Like, we all go through that transition, but in undergrad, it's still— you're still guided a little bit. And in graduate school, I would say it's mostly completely on your own. Especially at my program at Wesleyan, there's not a whole lot of resources online that lay out every single thing, every single requirement that you have to do. A lot of things you have to reach out to people yourself.

Eliza Hogan [00:09:16]: You have to reach out to older grad students, you have to be brave and talk to professors who— it might seem scary. And I'm very fortunate at Wesleyan that the graduate student culture there, it's not competitive in any sort of way. Everyone there was extremely nice, they want you to succeed. But I've noticed, especially the other people in my cohort even, I've seen them Maybe they're not as social as I am, or maybe, you know, they're not as proactive in trying to talk to other, other people, older grad students, that sort of thing. And a lot of the information about the program that I was able to figure out through talking to other people, they maybe had no idea about that, and I was the one having to tell them, oh yes, this is what has to happen. So the biggest transition I would say is you really have to motivate yourself, and when you are in a PhD program, you better want to be there. Like in undergrad, a lot of people may maybe change. I mean, for me, I knew that I wanted to do math, so it was different.

Eliza Hogan [00:10:07]: But in undergrad, maybe you're not sure what major you're going to do. You're kind of just going with the flow. It's a little bit more relaxed. But with PhD program, you have to know that that's what you want to do. So you have to be focused. It is all self-driven. No one's going to be making sure you get your work done, making sure you're eating enough food, making sure you're getting enough exercise, all of those sorts of things. You really, you have to motivate yourself to do all of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:32]: You know, when you're jumping into something that is brand new, there's always that possibility that you run into the situation that you kind of question your abilities. And a lot of times they call it imposter syndrome, but it's really that self-doubt that creeps in when you're doing something new, and especially when you go to graduate school, that happens to most people. So talk to me about your own experiences with imposter syndrome and how did you handle it?

Eliza Hogan [00:10:59]: Yes, that's a great question. I have dealt with a lot of imposter syndrome, especially last year when I was first coming into my program. So in my cohort, it was just a cohort of 3 people, so just me and 2 other guys, which a gender thing is a big issue in math and a lot of the STEM things— computer science, engineering— there's a lot of gender issues there. So as a woman, being the only woman in my cohort, A, that was already— I was already feeling scared about that. Luckily, however, I will say the 2 people that were in my cohort, absolutely amazing. They, they— I am so grateful for them. But one of the guys my cohort already had a master's degree in math, and the other one was an uber— one of those people you're like, okay, you are an uber genius. Um, and I was feeling like, oh my gosh, I have— what did I get myself into? I have no idea what we're talking about.

Eliza Hogan [00:11:51]: Especially the first days of classes, the professors were opening their mouths and being like, okay, you guys already learned all this in undergrad, right? And then skimmed over a bunch of stuff, and I was like, oh man, what did I get myself into? I don't know any of this. And honestly, it was a really, really big struggle. The first whole semester, I would say, I was really struggling with feeling like, I cannot do this, I need to go back home, I need to study more before I go get it— get myself into this PhD program mess. And honestly, the only reason I would think I was able to get through it was, A, okay, I was actually learning stuff, I was getting the homework done. And in hindsight, I can see that Okay, I learned so much. And when I was in it, maybe I didn't realize how much I was learning and I really was feeling like I was behind. But the thing that pulled me through was talking to older grad students. I was able to make close friends with some 5th and 6th year students who were saying, hey, I was in your shoes.

Eliza Hogan [00:12:47]: I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. I promise you, you will get through it. They were some of the only people in my— because I have a support system with family at home, right? But They are not in a PhD program and they've never done grad school. I'm the first in my family to go to grad school. And so they were a support system, but they also couldn't really offer me the advice that these grad students at Wesleyan could. And also I actually was able to reach out to Dr. Cam McCleeman and say, hey, I feel so stupid. I don't know what I'm doing.

Eliza Hogan [00:13:17]: Can you help me? And we even got on some Zoom calls a couple of times and went over actual material to try and help me feel better. And he would say things like, oh, like, Eliza, come on, like, you know what you're doing. You made it sound like you were super lost, but it seems like with talking to you, you know what you're doing. So it's hard to say whether or not I've ever actually overcome the imposter syndrome, but I don't know, I like to think that— and I've heard a lot of people say this— the people who can succeed in grad school are the people who can push past the feeling of every day feeling like you're stupid. You have a few wins, but for the most part in grad school, every day shows you how much you don't know. And the people who can get through grad school are the people who are okay with feeling uncomfortable and feeling like they don't know what's going on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:58]: Now, you talked a little bit about that you have to be self-motivated and that you have to kind of find that balance for yourself so that you're able to wear the many hats that you continue to wear, whether not only your academic hat, but all the other hats that you wear too. So talk to me about how did you find balance thus far in balancing school, work, family, or other personal responsibilities As you've been going through this graduate school experience?

Eliza Hogan [00:14:28]: Yeah, so I knew for me going into this new program, this new lifestyle, you know, I had never lived on my own before because I stayed with my parents and commuted when I was going to U of M Flint for undergrad. So this is my first time ever living on my own, having my own apartment, having to cook my own food, that sort of thing. And the thing that I fortunately was able to identify before I even went to graduate school based on doing some summer programs and some Some preparation things that I had done before coming to Connecticut for my PhD program was that I need to have a gym schedule, basically. That was the thing that I knew that I needed because fitness is very important to me. And so coming to Wesleyan, I knew, okay, I need to figure out a way with my crazy schedule, my crazy class schedule, my TA duties, I need to find a way to be able to fit this gym schedule into my life because if I don't, then I know that I will spiral and my life will go out of control. So that was one thing that I needed to figure out for myself, and fortunately I was able to figure that out. There were weeks, you know, where the homework schedule was harder and I wasn't able to get that ritual that I intended to have, but it's things like this you need to figure out for yourself. Okay, what do I need to do in order to be successful, like, at school? Well, I'm not going to be able to be successful if I'm not eating well or if I'm not getting enough exercise, for me personally.

Eliza Hogan [00:15:50]: And for other people it could be, I really like to paint, or I really like to read, that sort of thing. For me it's more of a hobby, so I prioritize making sure no matter what that I was able to get that routine that I needed. Um, so that was the thing that I'd say, I would say helped me transition the most. And learning how to cook for myself, learning how many groceries I need to buy for the week to be able, you know, not buying too much food but not buying too little, learning how to prioritize time for social activities with friends. I would say probably could have used a little bit more time towards that my first semester especially, but over the summer I've gotten better at prioritizing I know

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: earlier you mentioned that you were looking for programs that were 100% funded, and not every graduate program is 100% funded, but a lot of times with PhD programs, that is a possibility and something that people can look into. And you said that you are a TA, which means a teaching assistant. So talk to me about, one, how did you identify those programs for yourself that were offering that type of funding? But two, what was it like to be a TA? to talk about that ex— this experience that you've been having as a TA and what that means to you as a graduate student, but also for other people that are thinking about teaching assistants, research assistants, or some other type of work on campus like that, what they should be thinking about in that journey for themselves.

Eliza Hogan [00:17:21]: Yeah, so with the math PhD specifically, I would say it is more common than not to be fully funded. So as far as finding the programs, honestly, it's just based off looking at the website. Hopefully the school that you're interested in has that information available on their website. If they don't, most of the time I would say the website will have some sort of graduate program email that you could email to, whether it's like a general email or the email of a specific person who runs— is a dean of graduate studies or something like that. So maybe you could reach out in that way, but As far as from my experience, all of that information was mostly on the school website. And I don't know if I did a great job with this actually, because one of the schools I did get accepted to, they did not offer me funding, which I didn't think was possible because I thought that I only applied to schools that had funding. So it does happen. In that school though that I did get accepted to, they weren't guaranteeing me funding, but they said, you're accepted into our PhD program, although we don't have a TA teaching assistantship available for you, but you can apply to these grants that we have.

Eliza Hogan [00:18:29]: So there are a couple things you can do. Obviously my experience is only for math, but at this school there was some grants or kind of like scholarships. The name of what it specifically is is slipping my mind at the moment, but there are these things that you can apply to that require you not to do a TAship, or you can apply to be like a research assistant for a professor through the actual school. So I know those are options. And then I know there are some government-funded like NSF research scholarships that you can apply to to get funding without having to— if the school that you have been accepted to doesn't have a TAship available for you, there are other options to get funding. And as far as the TA duties go, it really does vary what program you're at. I know I have some friends who at different schools that have to work upwards of 20 hours a week on grading homeworks and exams and stuff like that. At my school at Wesleyan, the standard is to try and keep it to 10 hours a week.

Eliza Hogan [00:19:25]: on your TAship. So what that looks like depends on what professor you're assigned to, to be honest. So for me, my first semester last year, I had to help a professor with 2 of his classes, and fortunately there were also undergraduate TAs working on that class, so I didn't have to grade any of the homework. But I did have to host a few weekly TA sessions as well as grade exams and quizzes. So for me, what that looked like was making sure each week that I knew what the material was being covered in class was, because I think I could have technically attended the classes if I wanted to, but with my busy schedule I was not able to. So it looked like, okay, before I have my TA session, which for depending on what your— what school you're at, for me a TA session was basically like an office hours essentially. I would book a classroom and then just have kind of an open office hours type of vibe going on. Students can come ask me questions about their homework assignments, that sort of thing, or they can say, hey, I was confused about this in lecture, can we go over this topic? But obviously that means I need to know what the topic is So depending on what class you're TAing for, it depends on how much work it might be.

Eliza Hogan [00:20:33]: I was TAing for Calc 1 and for vectors and matrices classes, which are pretty lower-level classes for math. So these are concepts that I knew pretty well. But if I was TAing— one of my friends had to TA for a higher-level class that wasn't material that's like the back of the hand for them. So I knew that that probably required a bit more preparation on their end. But I would say for people who are looking to go to grad school and are kind of maybe worried about the TAing aspect of it, or maybe the research aspect of it, it depends what you want to do, obviously. Like I mentioned, I want to become a professor, so the idea of TAing is great for me. I want to come out of this program learning how to be a good teacher, learning how to be a good professor, learning how to, you know, be efficient with grading homework, that sort of thing. Super useful for me.

Eliza Hogan [00:21:17]: So I'm excited at the prospect, or, you know, at the opportunity to be able to TA. I don't really think of it as a job necessarily. For me, I like to think of it as part of my training, as being— I want to become a professor, so I can think of this as part of learning how to do that. So I guess it really depends on what your goal is after your PhD program. If you are interested in more research, then maybe looking into getting a research assistantship rather than a TAship. But like I said, it really depends what program you're at. So I would look at the website, look at the requirements, and see what type of information you can get based off what school you're applying to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:53]: You know, as you think back to yourself back in your undergraduate days, as you were looking at school prior to starting your graduate degree. What do you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school that would have helped you find success sooner?

Eliza Hogan [00:22:09]: Honestly, I think my answer is that what I wish someone had told me actually already was told to me. I don't know if that's a valid answer to this question, but if I can maybe rephrase the question in my own way, what would I tell to someone is stuff that was already told to me. So especially if you're going into math or STEM— it's harder for me to speak on experiences for other, other types of programs— but for math and STEM-related programs, I know that for me, I did an REU, which stands for Research Experience for Undergraduates. And basically what that is, it's a summer research program that, that many universities across the country hold. I did one at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, actually. That That is one of, if not the most important and influential experience I had in my undergraduate career. I was able to meet students from all across the country going to different programs who all, for the most part, were looking towards getting into a math PhD program. And I learned at this REU what I needed to do to prepare myself for— and I did this in the summer of my junior year.

Eliza Hogan [00:23:18]: So right before I was getting into my last year of undergrad. I learned so much from the students there and from the professors that we worked with. Not only actual math, obviously I was doing research so I learned actual math, but I also learned what I need to do to prepare, whether or not I want to take the GRE. I didn't even know what the GRE was or that that existed before I did this. And if you don't know, that's basically a graduate readiness exam that some schools require you to take in order to apply to their program. I had no idea that that existed. One of the things that I would never have known about if I hadn't done this REU. And then the other thing that I would say specifically for math as well, or computer science, that type of thing— so this is after I already had gotten accepted into a PhD program, but one of the other things that prepared me the best was last summer I did a summer program also.

Eliza Hogan [00:24:10]: It's called the EDGE Summer Program, and that is a program for women and non-men who are either about to start a math PhD master's program or are in the summer after their first year, and it is basically a crash course in the material that you will learn in graduate school. So it's— you take courses for 4 weeks at a university, and you— the idea is to prepare you for the intensity of grad school. And so my biggest piece of advice to people looking to do grad school or about to start grad school would be to do research on these types of programs. So if you're in undergrad and you know you want to become a PhD, or you want to get into a PhD, maybe you're even just questioning whether or not you want to do research. I would first of all see if there's any research opportunities at your university. So I actually also did a UROP here at U of M Flint, one of the opportunities for undergraduate research. See if you can do that at your, at your school. See if you even like doing research.

Eliza Hogan [00:25:09]: And then if you do, maybe look to apply to an REU at a different university because not only does this actually give you experience in researching, but it also makes you a better candidate for applications. You can get a letter of recommendation from someone outside of your university. That will go a really long way, as well as meeting people who are, you know, peers who are going to be mathematicians or computer scientists or whatever in the future. And then once you are accepted into a PhD program, look and see if there's things like— apply to the EDGE program! And also if there's other things like this that are specifically geared for preparing you for graduate school. That is one of the most valuable things that I did. I don't think I would have been able to handle the intensity of graduate school if I had not done the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:51]: Finally, as you think back to your own graduate school experience, and I know you just offered some thoughts right here, but what other tips would you offer to other individuals, whether it's in a STEM career or other career, that would help them find success sooner?

Eliza Hogan [00:26:07]: I would say kind of like what I was talking about earlier with how to manage my transition, I would say find the thing that you know you need to do in order to basically stay sane. So for me, I knew if I wasn't forcing myself to get exercise in, that my mental health would slip. So whether that's exercise for you, or maybe it's a certain hobby that you like to do, or maybe you have been so busy lately with undergrad that you don't really have a hobby, I think you should find something that gives you peace that has absolutely nothing to do with whatever program you're going into, whatever field you're going into. Because when you're in a really intense program like mine, in any grad school program, you can start to lose yourself in whatever it is that you're studying. You don't want to just have every single waking moment of your life be dedicated to this thing that you're studying. Because at the end of the day, you're a person. You— if that's— that's the hardest thing to remember when you're in grad school, is you are actually a real human being. You're not just a math proof writing machine.

Eliza Hogan [00:27:07]: Ask yourself, who am I without this? What if for some reason I woke up tomorrow and couldn't write proofs anymore for whatever reason? Or what if I had to move back home and I wasn't able to finish this program? I mean, you don't want your life to be over. You want to have something that brings meaning to you other than whatever it is that you're studying. So that would be my biggest piece of advice, is to make sure you have things that you are passionate about outside of whatever it is that you are studying. Make sure you make friends, prioritize— maybe if you're religious, do that type of thing. Go experience life outside of your schooling because it's very easy to lose yourself in it and to lose who you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:45]: Well, Eliza, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not done. You still have some years left in this program that you're in. And I'm looking forward to hearing more about the success that you find in that journey and where you end up teaching. Maybe it's going to be back here at the University of Michigan Flint. You never know. But I truly want to say thank you for your time today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]: And I wish you the best in your continued success through your PhD program. And—

Eliza Hogan [00:28:12]: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate journey. Thank you. on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Pursuing a graduate degree is an exciting step for personal and professional growth—but it also comes with its own unique set of challenges. One of the most significant involves balancing the relationships in your life while meeting the intense demands of academia. The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and guest Darien Wilkerson, dives deep into this crucial yet often overlooked topic.

The Graduate School Juggling Act

Darien Wilkerson, a CAPS counselor, introduces the concept that as graduate students, we're individuals first and students second. Graduate school doesn't happen in a vacuum—there are romantic relationships, family, friendships, personal time, and of course, academic responsibilities to juggle. Recognizing which areas of your life are receiving less attention is the first step toward positive change.

Why Relationships Struggle During Graduate Studies

The episode highlights a variety of stressors that graduate students face: assistantships, research deadlines, financial pressure, new social environments, and a lack of free time. These factors can take an emotional toll and make it harder to maintain meaningful connections. Darien Wilkerson points out that understanding why relationships become strained during this chapter is essential to managing the challenge.

Tools for Healthy Communication

Successful relationships rely on effective communication. Darien Wilkerson emphasizes the "Four C's":

• Clarity: Speak directly about your needs; avoid leaving room for assumptions.

• Consistency: Follow through with commitments.

• Compassion: Offer understanding when misunderstandings arise.

• Communicate with 'I feel' statements: This approach prevents conversations from becoming accusatory and promotes healthier resolutions.

The episode also draws from the work of relationship experts John and Julie Gottman, describing unhealthy conflict patterns—criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling—and exploring much healthier antidotes.

The Power of Boundaries

Setting boundaries is not about rejecting those you care about—it's about creating a roadmap for how your relationships can thrive during busy times. The discussion encourages listeners to set boundaries around time, energy, and communication, while also offering alternatives to stay connected.

Managing Expectations and Creating an Action Plan

Open conversations are encouraged to renegotiate expectations with loved ones, shifting away from assumptions that create resentment. The key takeaway? Consistency is more important than frequency—regular, quality check-ins matter. The podcast closes with a reflective action plan, prompting you to identify one relationship to strengthen and consider which boundaries or expectations will help both you and your loved ones thrive.

If you're a graduate student—or know someone who is—tune in to this insightful episode to discover practical strategies to nurture your most important connections, even during the busiest seasons of your academic journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Darien Wilkerson [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Hello, good afternoon, and welcome. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan Flint, and really excited that you're here today to be able to delve a little bit deeper into things that you can do to be able to find success in this journey that you're on in graduate school. And today, I'm really excited to be able to have a friend from our CAPS office with us. Darien Wilkerson is with us. And we're going to be talking about a really important topic, a topic that I think a lot of graduate students do deal with throughout their time in graduate school. And especially for— it could be at the beginning, but it could happen any time during graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: And that's really talking about the relationships that that you have. It could be relationships at school, but it could also be relationships at home. It could be a mixture of all of these. And it's important to be able to have coping mechanisms in place, things that you can do to be able to maintain those throughout so that you can stay healthy throughout your own experience as well. So I'm really excited that Darien is able to be here today. Feel free to use the chat today if you have any questions, throw them in there. We'll be monitoring that, but I will turn it over to Darien. Darien, thanks so much for being here.

Darien Wilkerson [00:01:33]: Yeah, Dr. Lewis, thank you so much for allowing me to be here. So hello everyone who's able to be in attendance or will be watching. So like Dr. Lewis said, my name is Darien. I am a CAPS counselor here at University of Michigan Flint. Today we are gonna be talking about maintaining healthy relationships during graduate school. That's gonna be one of those hot topics.

Darien Wilkerson [00:01:53]: We are individuals first, students second. So we are trying to figure out how do we hold balance in everything. So hopefully we'll be able to learn some things, you'll be able to take away some things today. So we're going to get into some quick objectives. So again, the goal is to help identify common interpersonal challenges that graduate students may experience while you're balancing everything, the academic life, the personal life, then the relationship demands. We're going to learn practical communication strategies, boundaries, boundary-setting practices, and ways to manage expectations in those relationships. Because Those are some of the hallmarks that we are going to be engaging in to try to make sure we're finding that balance. And then lastly, hopefully be able to reflect a little bit about your own personal relationships and start to develop a plan of action to try to promote or sustain some of those healthy habits.

Darien Wilkerson [00:02:43]: So those are some of those learning objectives for today. So again, like I introduced, the idea of graduate school is not just school. You're not just going to the school and this is all you're doing. Once you leave the school, you are an individual first, meaning you have other responsibilities, and relationships in your life. And graduate school can impact all those friendships, family relationships, romantic partnerships, a lot of different working relationships, and also personal time and energy, all those kind of things. So choosing to go to graduate school is a beneficial thing for your professional lives, but can also be impacted on your— on a personal level. So the goal is to try to find some management there. So I hold this here kind of as the graduate school juggling act.

Darien Wilkerson [00:03:29]: You are in the center. And then you have these different spheres, the academic world, romantic relationships, yourselves, which is your mental health, right? Your self-care. And then you have your family relationships and your friendships. So this is the time I just like us to kind of take maybe 10, 15 seconds to kind of reflect when you're at the height of your semester or even thinking about getting into the graduate program. What's one of these quadrants? Which one of these do you feel like gets The, I guess the leftovers you feel like is really getting impacted because you need to know where that is first in order for that area to grow. So again, take that 10 to 15 seconds, which one of these kind of make the most sense for you? And again, each one's going to have a different answer, but hopefully you can reflect and kind of take that with you as we're moving forward. So again, why do these relationships become difficult? You know, as you're thinking about your quadrant, you're thinking about, yeah, maybe my family life or romantic life, it gets a little bit chaotic. And like, why is that? So again, being immersed in graduate school, there's different responsibilities and demand.

Darien Wilkerson [00:04:32]: So it's going to introduce assistantships, comprehensive exams, research deadlines, academic pressure, less free time, financial stress. You might have to relocate at some point in the program, even getting into the program. You might have had to have chosen to remove yourself from your social supports and go somewhere else. And that introduces new social environments. And again, unpredictability, uncertainty. when it comes to your schedule and your career, that everything is new, you're juggling a lot, and that can really cause some complications with how we are emotionally regulating with stress and how we are interacting with our people in our lives. So again, that's why relationships become difficult because school kind of becomes this main focus and then relationships are still your priority, but you may not have the same bandwidth as you typically do when it comes to managing those stressors. So it's kind of good to know why it does become difficult.

Darien Wilkerson [00:05:24]: So again, as we're talking about ways to manage, and maintain healthy relationships. We're going to break it up into a couple of different categories. So the first one is communication. And yes, we all communicate, but are we really communicating at the same time? When we are in high distress with our demands of our graduate studies, we are going to come across a certain way that we probably don't even expect. So it's good to try to have healthy communication when we are navigating our graduate studies so our partners and our loved ones and our friendships can all understand that we are still trying to be our best selves with them. So The 4 C's, it's like I like to call it, it's important to keep in mind when we're communicating. Clarity, for one, you want to speak directly about your needs, about what's going on. Do not leave room for assumptions.

Darien Wilkerson [00:06:08]: Assumptions will definitely be a deficit in maintaining healthy relationships. So just be clear about what those needs look like. Consistency. Are you following through with your commitments, with your promises of those happening? And if they do, if they're not happening all the time, that's okay. We're human, but we want to try to be as consistent as we can. Having compassion. Sometimes when we are engaging with our loved ones and friends and whoever, they may come across frustrated with us too, because maybe we're not consistent, maybe we're not being clear. So trying to have some compassion around the situation, both parties are wanting something mutual in this exchange.

Darien Wilkerson [00:06:45]: And there could be room for benefit of the doubt. Maybe they're, maybe they really do want this connection. Maybe they're, maybe they're not trying to be rude to me on purpose, right? They're not trying to move me away from my studies to argue with me or to have conflict with me. They just want connection. So having that benefit of the doubt could be really beneficial. And then lastly, again, communicating, but communicating through the lens of clarity and through the lens of just I feel statements. I feel statements are very powerful. So if you are in a point of frustration or you feel like a need needs to be put into place, start with saying those I feel statements.

Darien Wilkerson [00:07:20]: I am feeling this emotion when you are engaging in this. Certain behavior, right? And what I need from you, which is expressing the need, is et cetera. Those I feel statements are powerful because you are introducing those things without really name-calling, without pointing the finger. Like, you're always doing this and you keep me doing this. And why, why are you doing that? Those whys and yous can really cause more friction. So you want to make sure you're coming from a place that I feel because it removes that attacking nature. So we're starting here with the communication because it's very foundational. Another thing that we want to talk about is clear communication.

Darien Wilkerson [00:07:55]: So I talked about a little bit last slide, but it's going into this in more detail. So there's something called the communication flowchart. So what is happening, what I need, and what I can offer. So again, when you're navigating your graduate studies, do not lead with assumption. Just because people know you're in graduate school, that does not mean they're going to stop wanting to reach out to you and talk to you and do the things that they know you guys typically did before. So the assumption could be, well, they should know that I'm busy. They should know that I have all these different things going on. I don't have the time for this.

Darien Wilkerson [00:08:25]: Which all could be true. But you want to try to be clear with your communication and let them know what's going on. So the encouragement is to say, this upcoming week will be demanding, so I may have less time than usual. Can we check in Wednesday and plan something for the weekend? So having those kind of conversations to let that person know, whether that's a friend, loved one, family member, that I'm still here for you and just have a lot going on versus having this assumption. And that assumption can lead to more conflict. So having very clear and open communication can be a really good segue into having healthy relationships. I like to add this slide here too, because we're talking about conflict, right? If it's not healthy, you're engaging in potentially unhealthy conflict with your partner, with your friends, with your loved ones. So I use this slide to talk about John and Julie Gottman.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:16]: These people are the founders of couples therapy, and they talk a lot about the Four Horsemen. And the Four Horsemen are conflict styles that we can engage in without meaning to, and that will be shown here on the left side. So criticism, verbal attacking, contempt, attacking sense of self with intent to insult or abuse. Like you're basically talking down to that person. Being defensive, right? Having that defensiveness, trying to protect ourselves from any kind of attack. And stonewalling is basically like you're not saying anything. You're just removing yourself. You're being distant.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:49]: You're separating yourself from the situation. Anything on this left side, nothing gets accomplished, especially when we're in graduate school. High levels of stress, expectation. We will probably Venture over to this side more than what we want. So we are trying to do the antidotes. The one thing to help with criticism, A Gentle Startup, talking about those I statements. This is how I'm feeling, right? You don't want to talk down to your partner or to your friend or to your loved one. You want to build a culture of appreciation.

Darien Wilkerson [00:10:17]: Remind these people that you care and that there's positive qualities in the experience. Instead of being defensive, try to think and scan about You know, accountability and responsibility. Is there something that they're saying that is factual in this moment? Maybe I haven't been there for them. Maybe I have been inconsistent. That could be true. You want to take responsibility for those behaviors because that can lead into better conversation. Instead of stonewalling as a way to self-soothe by avoiding the conflict, instead of stonewalling to avoid, you want to try to do other strategies to manage your emotional regulation so you can come back to the person and have the needed conversation you need to have. So I like to put this up here.

Darien Wilkerson [00:10:58]: The Gottmans do pretty good work around conflict management and resolution. So this is a slide to kind of introduce those tactics, especially in romantic relationships, but this can be introduced in any sort of relationship. Because you want to have healthy conflict. Do not stray away from conflict in general. You want to make sure they're healthy. So those are some of the foundational pieces. So we're going to talk now about boundaries. Sometimes these can be fun.

Darien Wilkerson [00:11:24]: Sometimes they, they can be horrible. But some reminders about boundaries. Because Because in graduate school, you need to find a way to have boundaries with people. And because there's going to be a lot of energy exertion in the program, there's going to be a lot of different things you're balancing. Boundaries are going to be your best friend. So a couple reminders: boundaries do not equal rejection. You are not rejecting that person being in your life if you're putting up a boundary. What those boundaries are doing, you're creating a roadmap in how that person can participate in a relationship with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:55]: Due to Being—

Darien Wilkerson [00:11:57]: having less time due to all these different commitments. These boundaries are going to be able to give us a blueprint in how we stay connected. Not rejection, but to stay connected. So overall, this can strengthen communication, trust, and respect, right? It doesn't always have to lead to this disconnection. So this is another check-in I just encourage us all to do. When it comes to graduate school, there's going to be 4 different areas of boundaries that we can think about. It's going to be time, energy, obviously communication boundaries, and then space. So space is more like recharging.

Darien Wilkerson [00:12:29]: So this is the time for you to reflect and think, which one of these do I need to do more of? Do I need to have boundaries better with time when you're available? Do you need to have more boundaries around energy? What you can realistically give to somebody? How you're communicating? When do you communicate with your communication boundaries? And then finally, space, like I talked about. What do I need to do to recharge? Just kind of think about that for a second and ask yourself, which one of these areas or multiple areas do I need to grow in when it comes to setting some more boundaries for myself? Because if you have these boundaries, solidified, that's going to help alongside with healthy communication. So establishing a boundary. So a lot of times we can struggle with boundaries because not only that we don't want to hurt that person's feelings, we don't even know what to say. How do I say this without being harsh? So hopefully this gives you a little bit of a blueprint around how you can establish a boundary with somebody. So truly this is the formula, right? You start with what you need, why it matters, and what I can offer. So you're not shutting down connection. When you're saying, when you're bringing up a boundary, at the end, you can present a different alternative.

Darien Wilkerson [00:13:30]: So for example, you can say, you know, I need Saturday morning to work on my paper. So you're expressing your need because my deadline is Monday. So that's why it matters. And then what you can offer is this. I want to, I won't be available for, for brunch, but I love to meet Saturday evening. So introducing alternatives can actually be a game changer. It can let people know, like, you're still connected, you're still invested, and there could be a different pathway in being around each other. That can be happening in friendships.

Darien Wilkerson [00:13:55]: That can happen within your family. That can happen in your partnership with your spouse or your significant other. So think about this formula: what I need, why it matters, what I can offer, as you're presenting these boundaries in any part of your life, because that can hopefully help people feel less rejected or feel less negative around the interaction. And you feel a bit more better about yourself in the process because you said something. So there is that. Last one is about managing— for managing relationships is expectations. So again, graduate school can create a gap between what people expect than what capacity you truly have. And the goal is not to choose one over the other.

Darien Wilkerson [00:14:34]: You're not choosing your studies over these relationships. It's about renegotiation throughout the entire process, and that leads to different expectations, right? So you want to start having conversations now. So as you enter— as we're entering fall term, as we're getting into the midpoint finals time, right, as you're going on break and coming back for the spring term, have these conversations of expectation now so people are aware what to expect. And then I always like to put up there on the right, we're talking about the expectation of flow. Like, which ones do you think your relationship's fallen? If it's A, assumptions, that can lead to misunderstandings and resentment. If you're assuming that since I'm in grad school, these people should know these things like I've been talking about, that's going to lead to misunderstandings. And those misunderstandings can lead into resentment or bitterness, and those relationships start to crumble. However, if you Choose option B, which is having conversations like we've been saying.

Darien Wilkerson [00:15:29]: Those conversations can lead to clarity, and that clarity can lead into adjustment. And that's all you're doing. You're taking what was and you're shifting it to a new thing because you're experiencing a whole new experience in your life with school. So try to lean towards option B with having conversations now, because that can hopefully lead to adjustment. So here's some examples, right, when you're shifting these expectations. So maybe prior to graduate school, You'll be on the phone with an individual, with your family or with your friend 3 times a week. Now you're in the— now you're in grad school, you're realizing I don't have that energy. So the boundary would be set around that.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:04]: And then the alternative with expectations would be, I can't call you 3 times a week, but maybe I can call you once, once a week. And even when we do hang out or we call, I may not be able to have all the hours in the day like I used to. Maybe it's down to 30 minutes. And so then sometimes you might hang out with people in person all the time. That might have to shift to virtual platforms like FaceTime. And then lastly, again, this is more of the romantic side of things with like with your spouse or your partner. But if you're used to doing weekly date nights, you might have to start scheduling out more. Maybe it's every other week, still getting it down, but it's not going to be the frequency is not going to be the same.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:40]: So the moral of the story is consistency matters more than volume or frequency. As long as you're setting up a consistent pattern, check-ins of conversations, of hangouts, even if they're only blocked for 30 minutes at a time and doing a different format, people in your life will still care and understand that they're still making me a priority, even if it can't be the same as it was before. So try to put it on your schedule. You put every— like we, as you're in graduate school, you're going to use your planners, you're going to use all these things. Make sure you're allocating time to relationships on your schedule. Put that down because that will definitely incentivize you and encourage you to still do these things and you won't lose sight of it. So make sure you're plopping that on your schedule as well. So the last thing is more like that action plan that I was talking about before.

Darien Wilkerson [00:17:25]: You want to make sure you're trying to optimize these relationships. So there's, there's 6 questions I'll leave you with when it comes to maintaining healthy relationships. And think about your personal relationships now, right? There's a couple slides that prompted that for you. But think of these 6 questions. The first one, what is one relationship I want to strengthen? Hearing what you heard in the PowerPoint, what is one relationship you want to strengthen? And then as you're thinking about the PowerPoint, what's one boundary you need to put up? As we're thinking about our life, what's one area in our life we need to put up when it comes to a boundary? And what about expectations? You know, we— it's good to talk about it, but if we're not talking about these things, might be good to consider what's one expectation I need to communicate with somebody, which means you start to think about it. What are some conversations I'm not having and why is that? And then you want to start talking about or considering ways to protect your well-being. All these things can protect your well-being, but what are some other things that can protect your well-being? What are some hobbies? Or things you can get into again that can just, that fills you up and that can help you have optimal relationships too because you're pouring into yourself and then you can pour back into other people as well. So with those first 5 questions, hopefully you can think of one small action you can take with you for this week as you're considering these healthy relationships in your life.

Darien Wilkerson [00:18:40]: So those are the 6 questions I leave you with as action plan prompted questions just so you can encourage yourself to really reflect and think about what's the next steps look like from here? How do I, I know I need to communicate communicate better. I know I need to set up boundaries. I know I need to manage expectations in my life as I'm juggling graduate school. So what do I need to start with now? So again, that's what I have for you today. This is just an information slide around CAPS. As you know, I work in CAPS, and we do a lot of great stuff in our department. So again, always feel like you can contact us. You can— we are located at 264 UCEN, University Center.

Darien Wilkerson [00:19:16]: Our phone number's here on the slide, 810-762-3456. You can call and make a consultation Refer— referral or consultation session and then move on from there. But we're here for you and your— all your emotional and mental well-being. So that's what I have for you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]: Well, Darian, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing all of this. I think it's really important to think about all of this and to review all this and really to take it all in to be able to make a plan for yourself. So thank you for being here, for sharing this, and I wish you all the best.

Darien Wilkerson [00:19:49]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

On the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Tim Ekola, a pharmacist and accomplished leader, to share his inspiring journey through military service, pharmacy, and graduate education. Their conversation unpacks the evolving path of a lifelong learner, the power of relationships, and actionable advice for anyone considering the next step in their academic or professional journey.

Embracing the Educational Journey

Dr. Christopher Lewis opens the episode by acknowledging that everyone's educational journey is unique, filled with transitions and decisions that shape future success. Tim Ekola exemplifies this, having moved from military service to undergraduate studies, and eventually earning both a PharmD and an MBA. This nonlinear path serves as a powerful reminder that learning never really ends and it's never too late to pursue further education.

Recognizing the Need for Growth

Throughout his career, Tim Ekola noticed that progressing into leadership demanded more than clinical pharmacy skills—it required a broader understanding of management, finance, and organizational development. This realization prompted him to seek graduate programs that would equip him with the necessary tools to lead effectively. By emphasizing the importance of self-assessment and readiness to grow, the conversation encourages listeners to reflect on their own career needs and aspirations.

Finding the Right Fit

Selecting the right graduate program is crucial, and Tim Ekela shares his approach of evaluating options that align with a busy professional life. He highlights the importance of flexibility, supportive faculty, and a diverse peer group, praising the University of Michigan-Flint's MBA program for its blend of in-person and online opportunities and the varied professional backgrounds of his classmates. These factors contributed not only to his academic success but also enriched his experience, underscoring the value of environment and community.

The Power of Relationships

A significant theme is the importance of building relationships with peers, faculty, and mentors. Tim Ekola emphasizes that relationships are often more valuable than credentials alone when it comes to career advancement and personal fulfillment. The bonds he formed during graduate school continue to support him professionally and personally, offering opportunities and friendships that extend well beyond graduation.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

The episode closes with practical advice for anyone considering graduate school: have honest conversations with family and employers, prepare financially, develop strong time-management skills, and persevere even when the workload feels overwhelming. Above all, building a supportive network is key.

Ready for More?

If you're contemplating graduate school or searching for inspiration to take the next step, this episode delivers honest insights and encouragement. Hear more about Tim Ekola's journey and get actionable tips by tuning in to this episode of "Victors in Grad School." Don't miss out on the wisdom that could shape your future!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey, because every person goes on a different path. To their education, to their future education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: And no matter where you are right now, you are on a journey to your future. And that's why you're here, because for you, you have decided that at some point in the future that you have an interest in continuing your education. This show is here to be able to help you, to be able to give you some hints, some tips, some tricks, some things that can help you in that journey to help you find success in graduate school. So whether you are at the very beginning and just starting to think about this, whether you've already applied, maybe you've already heard and gotten that admission decision, maybe you're in graduate school, doesn't matter. There are things that you can do right now as you are preparing, as you are getting ready, as you're going through graduate school to continue and have success in this journey that you're on. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to see what they had to do in that journey to be able to find success for themselves. Today, I'm really excited to be able to have Tim Ekola with us today. And Tim is a pharmacist, but he also has had many different things that he has done over his life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: And I am really excited to be able to have him here to talk about his own journey in getting his education to share that with you. Tim, thanks so much for being here today.

Tim Ekola [00:01:47]: Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to talk to you today. And I know that for you, you went to high school, but then after high school, you went into the military and you you served in the military for many years, and then decided that you were going to go and get that bachelor's degree. And you ended up getting a bachelor's and a doctorate degree at the same time, going and getting the pharmacy degree, and going to 2 different schools to ultimately get that. And then you went off and worked. And like many people, over the years, you used that pharmacy degree, you worked at many places, you also continued to serve in the military and worked in pharmacy there as well. And At some point in this professional journey that you went on, you found that you weren't done and that you wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point in your professional life. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you weren't done and that you wanted to continue your education?

Tim Ekola [00:02:48]: That's a wonderful question. So as my career progressed, both in my profession as a pharmacist, as a clinical pharmacist, and working in hospitals for the most of my career, it mirrored actually my Navy Reserve career as I was progressing in leadership positions. And there are certainly many opportunities within the military and other, other volunteer organizations to gain leadership skills and put them into action. And so as I was gaining leadership responsibilities in the military, I found myself with the similar opportunities within my profession where I became a director of pharmacy at a small critical access hospital in Dowagiac, Michigan. Small hospital, 20-bed hospital. Didn't have my doctor of pharmacy at that point in time, but that was And so, as I moved on, I quickly understood that moving from a clinical role, understanding medications, evidence-based medicine, working with patients, was not the same as leading a department, as interacting with other healthcare professionals to run that department. And so, at that point, I did decide I was going to get a Master's of Public Health. As what happened, I actually, at Western Michigan, accepted that, and I then got notification that our unit was being deployed.

Tim Ekola [00:04:06]: deployed to Germany. So for a year, we went over and supported the mission at Landstuhl Army Hospital as a Navy group. And but I never lost that understanding that I needed something else. And so after that mission was done, during that time, I actually stayed another 5 years as a civilian pharmacist doing medication safety for the Army. And I got my Doctor of Pharmacy degree during that time. Then we came back to Michigan in 2013, where I landed a position as Director of Pharmacy at Sparrow Hospital in Lansing, Michigan. Again, not having a graduate degree in business, but certainly understanding that it was a larger complex, obviously, than a small critical access hospital. And it was during that time that I knew that I needed to not just understand how the pharmacy runs, but I need to understand the big picture, the strategy.

Tim Ekola [00:04:55]: I had to understand organizational development, to culture, to relationships with people, the HR side, the finance and budget, where my boss— I reported to the VP of admin. And, you know, There were some tough questions and I had help along the way, but I just, at that point, I knew I needed an opportunity to excel and sharpen the tools in my— and add some tools to my toolbox that I'd not had before. And that was kind of a turning point. And so I looked around and found that University of Michigan Flint certainly offered a working professional those opportunities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:35]: Now you have 2 graduate degrees. So you went, you got a bachelor's in pharmacy, and then as you said, you went, you served, ended up continuing and getting the PharmD and then going and getting the MBA. And when you made the choice to go and get the PharmD, as well as getting the choice— making the choice to go and get an MBA, you had to do your research. You had to look and figure out, you know, what is the right program? What were you looking for? You know, what did you want out of these programs? I guess as you think back and you think back to that, search and that exploration that you went through yourself. Talk to me about what you were looking for, what ultimately made you choose first Shenandoah University for your PharmD degree, but then, as you mentioned, then the University of Michigan Flint for your MBA.

Tim Ekola [00:06:26]: Yeah, many similarities between both decisions, and you're absolutely right, I did look at many different options. In the early 2000s, there were— mid to late 2000s, exactly— there were many opportunities for post-baccalaureate Doctor of Pharmacy programs. And Shenandoah, where I was in my life, I had children in high school, and boy does life get busy then. I was working, I had volunteer obligations that I do outside of that, so I needed a good balance. I needed both online support, but I also to be able to be with people. So I actually did that while I was in Germany and flew back to Winchester, Virginia several times to do some hands-on face-to-face face-to-face, but they were really accommodating. I had a great relationship with the dean of the pharmacy school there. His father actually was a physician at Lawnstool Army Hospital in the '60s and '70s, so we kind of hit it off.

Tim Ekola [00:07:25]: Similarly, as I was moving into looking at university for an MBA, I looked at various programs that would meet a working professional now with higher obligations as a director of pharmacy at a major trauma center in the center of Lansing. kids in college, a new family with younger kids coming along. So all those obligations were still there. And what, what University of Michigan Flint offered that I didn't see from other programs was that ability to again have that work-life-school balance. But what I really liked was it's different from the Doctor of Pharmacy. We were all pharmacists going back to get— and many of us practiced for many, many years. What I found at U of M Flint was it wasn't all medical. Even though my MBA was in healthcare, I had automotive engineers from Ford and General Motors.

Tim Ekola [00:08:16]: And so I got a new perspective 'cause you work in teams in many of these classes on projects. And I formed bonds and relationships that have carried on beyond that. Somebody might be strong in statistics, somebody might be strong in word writing, but you would learn to work together to get that project done, which actually was not new to me because having worked in the workplace for 20 years, I know that teamwork and strength, using the strength of the team is the best way to get things done. But I think I know that Michigan Definitely helped me see that clearer.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:47]: Now, whenever I talk to individuals that have gone to graduate school, and as I said, you've gone to 2 different ones, you have to make transitions and you go through a transition from undergrad to your graduate program. For you, you know, you went from military to undergrad to work to back to grad school, to work, back to grad school. So you did a number of transitions throughout your professional and personal life. And as you go into those different types of education, you have to understand more about the rules, the unspoken rules, the real rules. You have to understand what is— what are the expectations, and you have to adapt to what those different situations were. And you were successful in those transitions for yourself. Talk to me about in those transitions that you went through for your PharmD, for your MBA, What did you have to do as you were transitioning into those different educational environments? And what did you have to do throughout the educational experience to maintain your success throughout the entire program?

Tim Ekola [00:09:53]: Well, it's definitely about balance, and it is utilizing the resources and the support you have around you through your fellow classmates to even the professors, the instructors in those classes. What I liked about both programs is they were, though, especially University of Michigan, University of Michigan Flint, larger academic universities, universities, I didn't feel like I was swallowed up in a big chasm of academia. I got to know the professors who were very supportive of me and all of the students. And so that was one thing that really helped move the process through. I— one of the things I look back on as my interesting career path and choice of when I got degrees was I read a letter back in the day. We had newspapers. with in print. And there was a strip from Ann Landers.

Tim Ekola [00:10:42]: She would— it was, uh, ask her a question. And somebody said, hey, I'm 34, I want to go back to school and become a physician, but that's going to take 8 years. And she said, what are you going to be doing in 8 years anyway? So every time I made the decision down the path of my career to go back to school, to get a bachelor's, to get a doctor of pharmacy, to get an MBA, I thought, well, what am I going to be doing in 2 or 3 years anyway? Let me make use of this time and my opportunities to do that. The interesting thing I think about how I took my journey was I started out as a hospital corpsman in the Navy and a pharmacy technician and, and knew when I joined the Navy that I was going to go to college. That's why I joined the military, was put money aside with the GI Bill to be able to go back and get a degree. I didn't know at the time what I wanted to do. And so watching the pharmacists work and having worked with them closely over the years and having great mentors and support along the way, that's when I decided to go to Ferris State when I got off active duty and went into the reserves. And so So a lot of the information I learned, and this happened repeatedly with the next 2 degrees, was things that I knew and I could apply while I was actually working, right? So I was still working actively as a pharmacy technician and an intern, pharmacy intern later, and I could apply those pharmacy skills then.

Tim Ekola [00:11:59]: Didn't say I knew everything. There was still much more to learn. And then as a practicing pharmacist for almost a decade, working in clinical environments like the OR and medical surgical floors and ICU, I went back and got my Doctor of Pharmacy. And working at the same time utilizing what I was learning during that couple-year period, but also adding new things to my toolbox. And as I've mentioned, I was already in management before I went back to get my MBA, but I could utilize budget strategies, long-term forecasting for, for strategies as I was doing this, and I would bring that back to my day-to-day work, which was so very very beneficial. I learned more about the lean process and black belt. I'm certified lean black belt, so understanding the flow. But when I took some of those classes at U of M Flint, that brought it even to greater light of how to watch transport and decrease certain areas that are going to slow you down.

Tim Ekola [00:13:01]: It really benefited me as I was going through that program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:04]: Now, you mentioned the fact You also looked at an MPH, you looked, and then you decided on an MBA. As you look back now, since you've gotten that MBA degree, and you, if you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? Why or why not?

Tim Ekola [00:13:20]: So I was sidetracked. I was going to get my MPH before the PharmD, but then I really knew that there was, when I had the opportunity to get the PharmD through Shenandoah, I was like, this is going to open doors for me. I am happy every time. I was happy in the job that I had and what I was doing. And I thought, I want to be able to choose my next career progression if I want to do it. And in the pharmacy profession, a doctor of pharmacy opens doors. And it certainly allowed me to come back and be competitive when we left Germany to have this position as a director of pharmacy. And then going from Sparrow to the VA Ann Arbor, which is a much larger complex, I went from having 80 full-time employees to 150 to 160 managing operational and clinical.

Tim Ekola [00:14:08]: knew while I was at Sparrow, I didn't know I was happy with my job at Sparrow, but I went, you know, I'm young. I was 50. I still have opportunities to do bigger things and work at a larger complex thing, but I need something that one differentiates me and one makes me again have sharpened some of the tools in my toolbox and have additional tools.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:26]: And I'm confident because of that MBA and the reason I chose an MBA versus going back for something as narrow as public health, or there's a master's in pharmacy, it also opens doors in healthcare administration outside of the pharmacy Now, earlier you mentioned that one of the things that you had to do as you were transitioning in and through to find success was find that balance for yourself, because you said that, you know, you had kids in high school, that you were dealing with volunteering and work and all kinds of life issues. And a lot of times people have that same situation happening for themselves. Talk to me about balance. And what did you have to do to be able to find that balance in school, work, family, personal responsibilities? Well, I think while you were in graduate school and what you had to adjust as you were going through to be able to maintain that.

Tim Ekola [00:15:18]: So support at home is very important. And I have a loving wife who encouraged and supported me along those journeys and really understood the importance for me as an individual to be whole, for us to be whole. So I think that's first and foremost is you have to have that converse, real conversation with your family about what this is going to do for the next couple of years to the things that you may have been able to spend time with them before. Now you have to figure out how to maybe do that a little differently. And in my case, the children were getting older, they were starting to drive. So some of those commitments of taking Sally here and Bobby there were gone because we didn't have that. So that also timing was important for me to know that I couldn't have done it when they were in elementary or junior high. But the high school years certainly lent itself to that opportunity.

Tim Ekola [00:16:08]: You also have to kind of look The volunteer things you do. I do community theater. I'm active with the Scouting America program. I had to back down on some of my commitments there. Didn't go away, but just have honest conversations with the folks that I'd built relationships outside of my professional family life to go, look, I'm doing this to make me a stronger individual, and it will not just benefit me, but in my profession. But as I come back into Scouting in America per se, I'm currently the council president for the Michigan Crossroads Council. And when I was asked for the role, I said, I thought you were looking for business leaders in the state. And they said, Tim, you are.

Tim Ekola [00:16:50]: You've got an MBA. You're a retired lieutenant commander from the Navy. You've led people. You know how to lead and do things. And I know the MBA was certainly a big part of that. And it's so— it brings it back tenfold when you do a sacrifice for a couple of years. I look back, that time flew like that. The first couple of months, The first year you're like— and I've told my children this, that they've gone through college— yet the first year feels like it's going to be forever, but you'll get to that halfway point and the next thing you know you are walking across the stage and getting that diploma.

Tim Ekola [00:17:19]: And that's exactly what happened both with the Doctor of Pharmacy and my MBA.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:22]: Now you mentioned also that one of the things that you really liked about your programs was the fact that you had peers that you were connecting with, and building those relationships is always important in a graduate program. Talk to me about those relationships and what you had to do to be able to those important relationships that you mentioned to— with your peers, with faculty, and what that has done for you, not only through the program but beyond the program, to allow for you to be successful not only through the program but in your career.

Tim Ekola [00:17:54]: Well, degrees are important to a degree, so to speak, but relationships are really what will help you succeed in life, whether it's, again, personal or professional. And I found I learned early on, even before going to both of those graduate programs, that early on, that building those relationships, understanding who is there to support you and you can support along the way, is going to get you much farther in life than having several initials after the end of your name. We've told our children, it's not always about what you know, it's who you know. And I don't mean that like in the sense that you have to buddy-buddy with people, but building relationships and showing, working with people And fellow classmates and professors and showing your initiative and your ability to get things done pays dividends when you get the call for, hey, we have a job opening and we'd like you to come talk to us, versus you trying to find a job. I think both my wife and I have mentioned that through our career, we probably had more job opportunities for advancement come to us because of those relationships we've built, where people reached out to us and said, you know what, you should really apply. We'd like you to do this. That. And whether it's a professor who recognizes that, and they obviously have many, many contacts throughout their career, both students and other professionals.

Tim Ekola [00:19:15]: One of my professors, and forgive me, I forget his name, but he was the CEO of a hospital in Southeast Michigan, Southwest Michigan. And so to get his perspective on the big picture of healthcare in America, which was kind of the, the subject of, of the class, but also key I mean, it's a small world out there. It's a small healthcare world. It's a small military world, a small business world. And word of mouth can make or break an individual. And so relationships are so very important. So how do you develop those? At U of M Flint, we had breakfast in the morning before you go to class and there's a lunchtime opportunity. So you sit in those people that you're doing projects with, you get to know them.

Tim Ekola [00:19:57]: You talk about their personal life. They, you know, their children's name, you know what the interests are outside of getting this degree. And I will tell you, there's an individual lives in Fowlerville. He is a former Marine. I was a former corpsman with the Marines. We hit it off tremendously. He works for Consumers Power. We go to U of M and Michigan State games and tailgate together.

Tim Ekola [00:20:18]: I've been to his birthday party. He opened a business and I came to help support that beyond my graduation from that program in 2018.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:25]: As you look back to your graduate school experiences, they're the 2 that you've had. What would you say were the 2 most valuable things you learned outside of the classroom during graduate school?

Tim Ekola [00:20:37]: I think I've kind of touched on that with the relationships that you build with people. I think that is key, and it was just cemented more into my thinking and view of working and being a member of the community, how important that is to be part of a community, to build those relationships. And I think the big part is the education is very important, right?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:58]: You—

Tim Ekola [00:20:58]: those are skills that help us again understand better, more efficient ways to get things done that we need to get done in our profession. But beyond that, it's how we utilize those other soft skills that are developed during that process of both of those degree programs. Again, building relationships, being part of a community, coming back and wherever your community is, understanding that it is to be a well-rounded person. We are doing more than just, in my profession, licking and sticking and pouring and counting out tablets. We are advocates for patient healthcare throughout the state. But that can be done through a myriad of other organizations. Scouting does a lot of that. Rotary does a lot of that.

Tim Ekola [00:21:44]: We have a lot of opportunities to expand that benefit that we got from going maybe to the graduate schools and giving back to our, our neighbors and, and others across the world where we can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: And finally, as you think back to your graduate school experiences, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Tim Ekola [00:22:05]: Yeah, I will reiterate, the first thing you need to do is have an honest conversation with your family, depending on where you are in your life, what that commitment means, and have their support. I did actually want to go back and get my doctor of pharmacy degree shortly after I got my bachelor's, and my children were much younger, and my wife said, listen, you can spend the next 4 years doing that, but you're going to miss a big portion of their life. So I put it on hold, rightfully so. So you have to find the right time for you. The other is having a good talk with your, your immediate workplace boss, as well as the You work with and let them know that you're interested in that. And do, do they have your support? There's the monetary side. How are you going to pay for this? Some organizations, consumers, and others will give you a stipend. I had GI Bill that helped me with my doctor of pharmacy degree.

Tim Ekola [00:22:52]: So the financial part is important to make sure you have that in place before you set out on this journey. And just time management is key. If you're not good at that now, you will be by the time you're done because you're going to have to be. But persevere. How about that? I think the Finns— I'm Finnish, the last name's Ekala— have something called sisu, which is grit and perseverance. And there will be time when it's overwhelming, everything coming at you. You have a big paper due, you have work obligations. Persevere, use your time management skills appropriately, but then communicate.

Tim Ekola [00:23:26]: Communicate with your professors, communicate with your work colleagues, communicate with your family and go, hey, I need need this to get this done. And people are good at heart and they understand, but you, you'll get it done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]: Well, Tim, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and I truly wish you all the best.

Tim Ekola [00:23:44]: Appreciate it. Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:46]: Today I'm really excited to be able to have Tim Ekola with us today, and Tim is a pharmacist. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating graduate school is a rewarding but often challenging journey, filled with competing demands on your time, energy, and emotional wellness. In the episode "Finding Support and Setting Boundaries" from the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis is joined by Reilly Chabie, a counselor and outreach coordinator with Counseling and Psychological Services at the University of Michigan Flint, to break down what it truly means to find balance and set effective boundaries as a grad student.

Reilly Chabie brings her expertise and a compassionate approach to guide listeners through understanding the unique pressures faced during graduate studies. She introduces the concept of the 8 dimensions of wellness – a holistic framework that includes emotional, physical, financial, environmental, spiritual, and other domains – and emphasizes how each area shifts in importance depending on one's priorities. When one area falters, others can quickly follow, making self-awareness and attentiveness to balance absolutely vital.

A central theme in this episode is the reality of imbalance and burnout. Reilly Chabie normalizes these experiences, discussing how burnout can affect not only our physical health but also our mental clarity, motivation, and relationships. She reminds us that recognizing the signs of burnout early is crucial to resetting and rediscovering a sustainable equilibrium.

The heart of Reilly Chabie's message is actionable: cultivate self-compassion and understand that balance is not a one-size-fits-all process. She encourages listeners to use self-checks to measure where their balance lies and adapt accordingly. Through tools like the 5-4-3-2-1 grounding method and the practice of radical acceptance, students can regain presence and reduce overwhelm.

Setting boundaries, a pivotal skill discussed in detail, is positioned as an act of kindness both to oneself and to those around us. Reilly Chabie walks through practical steps: define your personal limits, communicate them clearly, and reinforce them consistently—whether with friends, professors, or even yourself. The message is empowering: it's OK to say no, and even more, it's necessary for long-term success and well-being.

If you're embarking on or searching for ways to thrive in graduate school, this episode is packed with expert advice, relatable stories, and practical tools. Tune in to hear how Dr. Christopher Lewis and Reilly Chabie tackle common struggles and provide resources and reassurance to help you maintain your balance (and sanity!) throughout your academic journey.

Ready to reclaim your grad school experience? Listen now to "Finding Support and Setting Boundaries" on Victors in Grad School.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome everyone. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. I am so excited to welcome you and to— I'm so excited for you to start your graduate school journey. Today we've got a really important topic, and I know I say that every time, but it is true. This is another really important topic. Today we have a new friend with us that is going to be talking about another important topic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:37]: Reilly Chaby is with us, and Reilly is talking about the importance of finding support and setting boundaries. Where is that limit for yourself and being able to set those limits for you and for other people that know you? Because it's not just you. You have to be able to set the limits to be able to set those parameters for yourself to be able to be successful in graduate school. And Reilly's going to be talking to you about that. So I'm really excited to have her here. I'm gonna turn it over to her. Reilly, thanks so much for being here.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:05]: Welcome in. I am grateful to be here. Thank you for the introduction, Dr. Lewis. As he mentioned, my name is Reilly Chaby. I am one of the CAPS counselors and the outreach coordinator for Counseling and Psychological Services. And as mentioned, I'm here to talk to you today about really finding that balance as you are a grad student here at U of M Flint, because we have a lot going on in our personal lives, in our work lives, in our school lives. So we're gonna talk a little bit about what to consider, how to notice when you feel out of balance in certain aspects, although I'm sure we already do to some respect.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:39]: And I'm going to give you some tips and ideas on how you can kind of maintain that balance while you're here pursuing your degree. What I'm going to be talking to you about applies to all of our experiences. And the unique part about this is that we're going to talk about that individual experience, right? So I appreciate you interacting and kind of telling me a little bit about where you're at. And I'm hoping that Any part of this conversation today will be applicable to your experience. So quickly, I'm just going to kind of go over some of the things that we're going to talk about. So first and foremost, I'm going to do a little bit of an introduction on the 8 dimensions of wellness. This is a huge factor in U of M Flint's focus on health and utilize the 8 dimensions of wellness to really create and supplement the outreach events that we have and the things that are there for your use as you are part of this process. So I'm going to talk a little bit about that and how that applies to balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:02:34]: We're going to talk about balance itself. What does that mean? What does it feel like to be unbalanced? Those types of things. And then we're going to talk a little bit about those tips and tricks as well. We're also going to shift into a particular type of approach that can really help in maintaining balance, and that's going to focus on boundaries. So what are boundaries, examples of boundaries, and tips on how we want to engage with those. And then in summary, we'll talk about just some general last thoughts, some resources on campus, and a couple of things that CAPS has going on that you might want to partake in as you start your journey here at U of M Flint. So getting started on the 8 dimensions of wellness, as you can see here, this is a very excellent depiction of the different areas that we can kind of break our wellness down into, right? So we have our emotional wellness, physical wellness, financial wellness. We're even considering environmental wellness, right? Spiritual wellness.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:33]: And all of these different parts of the puzzle or slices of the pie, if you will, impact us differently depending on what area we feel like we want to move toward, or I guess better be better acquainted with, right? So for example, I might focus heavily on my emotional wellness, right? And that kind of makes sense as a clinician, I might be focused pretty heavily on that. But for some of you folks that are focused on starting your program you might focus on maybe your intellectual wellness, right? Maybe it's your financial wellness. We all kind of prioritize these different pieces in different ways. But what's really core to the 8 dimensions of wellness is that all of these parts serve the whole person. And what we tend to notice is that when one area of the dimensions of wellness is faltering or we're struggling to kind of maintain some consistency with it, we notice that other areas start to kind of stress and ultimately suffer as we try to navigate some of the other areas. Now, it's gonna be normal for our approach to focus in one area over the other, prioritize one area over the other, just depending on the situations that we have in life. But what's really kind of critical is we wanna be mindful of when we're giving too much attention in one place and how that ultimately is affecting the other areas of our wellness. Ultimately, as we kind of look through the rest of our conversation, you might, in the back of your head, start to think about, oh, as I'm, let's say, in October of my program, I'm realizing that my physical health and my wellness there is not doing it.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:23]: I'm really struggling with this and I have had a hard time taking care of that, which ultimately might lead to challenges in, let's say, your intellectual or environmental health, depending on what we prioritize and what we need to focus on. So keep that in mind and kind of think about this wheel a little bit as we go through the rest of our, our conversation, simply because we want to make sure that you know what areas you want to focus on, and that will likely help you consider what resources on campus you'll likely want access to, or at least keep in mind as you keep moving forward. So Let's consider balance. As I mentioned, we talked a little bit about how those 8 dimensions of wellness, if we're paying attention to them and kind of engaging in them and moving toward them in some way, we're typically creating some sort of balance in the process. However, balance shifts. It can kind of go up and down. It just depends on what the situation is. But I want to take a second and I want you to think about The types of responsibilities and roles that you have in your life.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:33]: Now, I'll point out a couple of basic ones. You're going to be a student. You're likely a friend. Maybe you're a significant other. Maybe you're an employee. There's lots of different roles that we take on. I don't know if other people have thoughts on their roles. I always like to mention that I'm a dog parent or I'm a cat parent.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:52]: I can insert other various roles that are unique to my experience that I am regularly engaging in. That I regularly pay attention to and I try to prioritize. But if we take that into this context, all of those different roles require a certain amount of energy and focus and dedication, all of the responsibilities that fall underneath that. So as a dog parent, I'm likely, I gotta remember to buy food, I gotta feed him, I gotta walk him, I gotta do all of those things. So the role itself is just an umbrella concept, and then we have to lay out all of those different types of responsibilities. You might be thinking then, okay, so if I have all of those things that I am responsible for, I'm likely going to start to feel out of balance if I feel like certain responsibilities are kind of taking control over other responsibilities. So because we have all of these different roles going on, we might experience that imbalance. I am curious, and feel free to answer in the chat, but why do we think personally it's hard to manage and balance all of these different roles and responsibilities, even if we've been doing it for a really long time? What types of things might impact that? The responsibilities never stop, so we never feel like we're getting a break.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:17]: We're feeling like there are certain things outside of our control that we can't really control, right? So that can ultimately impact that time. Absolutely. As a grad student myself, I remember I almost had zero time to do anything other than school half the time. Energy levels, absolutely. All of those things are going to be fluctuating as we take on these different responsibilities and as we try to adjust to this new role in our program. Some other things we might notice in terms of what we are struggling with in terms of balance is perhaps, but some of the things that we might experience might be that one of those roles or responsibilities are expecting too much, right? There is too much of a demand. There is too much of that that I need to take care of. Another thing we might notice, which definitely aligns with the imposter syndrome experience, is we set unrealistic expectations for ourselves in trying to balance these things or trying to take on these additional roles.

Reilly Chabie [00:09:16]: That could come from a variety of different ways, but as grad students, you might have this expectation that You are being held to this higher standard. There is more to be expected of you. And while to some degree academically that might be true in the sense that your program is specialized or is going to focus more in depth than maybe some of your undergraduate experience, we too ultimately set too high of an expectation that we are going to meet all of our demands all of the time, 100% of the time. But unfortunately, what that leads to is we are thinking that we are striving for perfection here. And there's that age-old saying, nothing can really ever reach a perfect space, right? Nothing is perfect. But we can think about what perfect actually means to us and how that relates back to our balance. So take in mind some of these things about balance because it'll be helpful in trying to maybe gauge how we want to approach rebalancing our life and making sure that we're able to meet the demands of what we're experiencing, but also knowing when it's too much, right? Or also knowing when we have to manage our expectations to be able to fit in what is most important to us. So now that we've considered some of the potential ways in which our balance can be impacted, or the specific aspects in which we're trying to look at when we think of balance, I think it's also helpful to kind of discuss what specifically we're experiencing or feeling as imbalance occurs.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:01]: And I'm sure many of you have heard the word before, but burnout tends to be our biggest worry when we think about imbalance, right? That if we are really engaging in one area, we might feel burnt out to the point where we can't engage in other areas. Some of you mentioned energy, right? Burnout does impact our energy levels. It impacts so many different aspects. And I think it's helpful to, while this slide doesn't really give you an exhaustive list, it's helpful to kind of look at some of the ways in which burnout shows up for you. So for example, physically, burnout might show up as high blood pressure. We might get recurring headaches. We might struggle to fall asleep, stay asleep, or even get up sometimes. Stomachaches are very common.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:52]: They say that There's an emotional center in our stomachs, which is why a lot of people tend to have GI issues when they're anxious or worried or concerned about things. You might also recognize that with increased stress comes a decrease in immune function, so we might actually be getting sick more frequently. And I'm not necessarily talking about if you have a chronic condition, but if you're generally otherwise pretty healthy, you might experience more colds or be susceptible to other types of illnesses. So it can definitely impact our physical process here. It also is going to impact our mental and emotional experiences. Once again, not an exhaustive list, but if we are experiencing burnout, we are likely going to experience some concentration difficulties. So that might be on your homework, that might be on certain work aspects if you are working during the same time as your degree, could be in various other roles. We might forget things more regularly.

Reilly Chabie [00:12:53]: We're going to notice maybe low mood where we're just generally feeling down, generally just kind of feeling disconnected. We might notice a loss of interest in some of your favorite things or things that typically have brought you joy. We might feel like we're falling behind, even if we're technically right on par. Sometimes we just have that feeling that we should catch up or should be doing more. And a lot of the time when we're experiencing burnout, all of these symptoms and concerns lead to this sense of feeling stuck. I personally, when I'm experiencing burnout, I tend to feel like very run down. I get headaches pretty regularly. I'm very tired.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:32]: A lot of those things start to come up. And I also tend to isolate from people, right? I don't feel like I have that energy to engage or the energy to show up in ways that are meaningful to me or to those around me. And that likely is due to that burnout and that feeling of overwhelm that I have too much going on at any given point. So once again, these signs are helpful to consider because one, you may have already experienced them, which is a good indication that we've experienced burnout. But when you start to notice these pop up either more intensely, more frequently, maybe out of characteristically, where like maybe every once in a while you get a headache, but like all of a sudden you're getting them so often that you're very confused because you're drinking water, eating well, doing all of those regular things. When those things start to happen, that's a good indicator to us that we've maybe lost balance in some way, and we can start working on some of these tips to kind of regain that balance in an aspect that feels tangible and approachable in the moment. All right. So now that we kind of have a better understanding of what balance is, you know, what might be contributing to our imbalance, and just kind of some ideas as to how we consider this balance in our own context, I do want to talk a little bit about What are some of those tips and tricks on getting toward balance? And some kind of basic things to be mindful of in this process is that achieving balance is a, is a very kind of like incremental step process.

Reilly Chabie [00:15:09]: It's never going to be linear in the, in the way we feel that if we do step 1, it leads to step 2, but rather if we take one step in one direction, that means we're closer to taking another step at some point. Mm-hmm. And I think phrasing it in this way suggests that sometimes balance— we can stay consistent for long enough before we, let's say for example, improve upon an area of wellness. And that consistency helps us feel stable, supported, and gives that kind of foundational core to our experience, something that we can always rely on. And every once in a while, we take those bigger steps to more solidify our connection to our wellness and to the things that we care about. Care about in the moment. In that same mindset, balance can often be viewed as a continuum that we're kind of ebbing and flowing through that balance space. Sometimes I like to think of the balance continuum as 1 being like, I'm a complete disaster, I have no idea what's going on, to 10 being, for lack of a better term, perfectly balanced.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:18]: And perfectly balanced is just whatever I deem to be balanced in that moment. Am I not feeling those signs of burnout? Do I feel like I'm able to keep my energy up? Am I able to feel connected to the people that I'm with? The things that I value in that process. So every once in a while, it might be helpful to kind of check your balance continuum, kind of see where you lie in that 1 to 10 scale, if that's helpful. But even more so, when we think about the continuum, balance is going to look different for everybody. Therefore, your approach is going to be different. That one thing isn't necessarily going to work for me as it does for you, and that's okay. Ultimately, we're just kind of trying to find that concoction that leads us to the appropriate level of balance that we need. So ultimately, why is balance even realistically important? Well, first of all, it's going to improve our mood.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:16]: So if we feel like all of our kind of dimensions of wellness are taken care of and we feel relatively balanced, then we We're going to notice the pleasure in things. We're going to feel focused. We're going to feel like we're achieving what we want to achieve. We're also going to notice a higher and better quality in our relationships. So going back to that part about our roles that we hold, we might feel better about our role as a student. We might feel better satisfaction from our relationships with our significant other, our friends, our coworkers, wherever it might be at, because we're able to focus on that dimension of our wellness. And I think that's a really important point. We're also likely to just have a better enjoyment of life itself.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:00]: I can't tell you how many times that during grad school it was pretty complicated to feel like everything was enjoyable around me. Like, I won't lie, we have those emotions all the time, right, where things are stressful, things are kind of getting to us. But the more we actively keep in check our balance to the best of our ability, the more likely it is that we're going to experience that enjoyment for longer periods of time, even outside of the times when we know we just cannot in the moment. That is okay. But this is why balance is key in our process as a grad student, because we respect and understand the difficulties that might come around, but we are not stuck in that difficulty if and when we do not want to be. We can access those resources and engage in ways to help us get to that balance. As we shift into kind of the tips for balance, right? Once again, I talked a little bit about the uniqueness of balance, right? That we're looking at different ways across the board that might work for you but won't work for another person in today's conversation. And ultimately, it's okay to test out as many of these as you would like, consider as many of them as you would like, and notice what works in times of high stress or what works when you're just kind of hanging out but you're noticing some of that imbalance.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:20]: So feel free to kind of consider some of these things, but add what feels appropriate to you. So first and foremost, as we talk about tips for balance, I want to address a concept called self-compassion. And self-compassion is a term coined by Kristin Neff. And she defines self-compassion as the practice of being kind and understanding towards oneself when experiencing failure, inadequacy, or suffering. And I think this really sums up some of the feelings that we might have in the grad school experience. When we think about imposter syndrome, we often feel like we are inadequate in what we are trying to learn. And as a student, that can be really alarming. We can be like, well, you know, I did all of this work, I did all of the things that I felt like I was supposed to do, and I am still feeling this way.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:13]: So something that we want to be mindful of is that our, our ability to say, hey, what you are doing is really hard, and it is okay to have these thoughts, these feelings, these experiences, we tend to reduce that kind of like idea that we're not allowed to feel a certain way or that we're not allowed to have uncomfortable or difficulty emotions in the process. And what we also learn is that we're able to accept that these challenges are in front of us, that we're doing the best that we can. We're trying to balance what's in front of us. And in that process, we're accepting the fact that whatever I'm trying to do now will inevitably help in some way. What we don't want is to beat ourselves up over our process. We don't want to say that we're incapable of addressing these things. It's ultimately just going to be about saying, I accept that I'm feeling this, and I'm being kind to myself in the process as I figure out how I want to take it. In line with that, we're giving ourselves the permission to kind of feel some of these negative and uncomfortable feelings.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:24]: Part of self-compassion is being able to say, wow, I have a lot of emotions in this moment, and I don't really know what to do with them, and they're kind of freaking me out. But emotions are there for a reason. They remind us when things are important. They tell us that we, that we want something out of an experience, or they tell us how to survive, right? Or how to get out of of an experience. And what we, what we don't want is to shame ourselves into thinking that negative feelings automatically mean failure or bad or whatever it is, but rather, okay, I don't love that I'm feeling this negative feeling, or I'm uncomfortable by this. What does it mean for me? How do I look at this from that lens of balance? And why might I be feeling uncomfortable? Right? So we can practice that skill. I did see a question about the slide deck. You will likely receive this.

Reilly Chabie [00:22:16]: I typically send it out afterwards. words to Dr. Lewis, but I appreciate that question regardless. So once we've kind of gotten into that spot of like feeling our feelings and offering that self-compassion, there are some interesting skills that we can utilize, especially when it relates to those overwhelming emotions that I always like to let people know about. So specifically, I like to talk about these skills that are considered distress tolerance skills. Distress tolerance essentially is this idea that we're working towards tolerating tolerating the fact that we will likely come into contact with distress. Things in life are stressful, therefore we're learning how to tolerate that. And this is more so to kind of give us that space to feel what we need to feel rather than saying that all of the things we experience have to be felt a certain way.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:09]: So when we're thinking about distress tolerance, there's a couple of things that I suggest that individuals do. So first and foremost, when we're in heightened levels of stress, such as like when we're experiencing burnout, something that can be really helpful is building up a sense of grounding or reality. So when we're feeling stressed, we tend to kind of feel outside of our body a little bit, we tend to struggle on our focusing, we kind of feel disconnected. So in an effort to ground or kind of bring us back to that sense of reality in that present moment, I suggest utilizing the 5-4-3-2-1 method. I know that's kind of a mouthful, but all that essentially is asking you to do is you're going to utilize your 5 senses in order to reacclimate to your present moment. So for example, I might do this practice by asking myself to think of It's not thinking, but around me in the present moment, I'm going to identify 5 things that I see. I'm going to then go down to 4 things that I can touch, 3 things that I can smell, 2 things I can hear, and 1 thing that I can taste. And although some people will suggest that doing the senses that are kind of the easiest, so maybe like sight and hearing or the touch, to be in those like 5-4-3 areas.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:44]: You can kind of mix and match that however you feel is appropriate for you. Whatever senses you feel like are most applicable, you can still utilize this even if you're not using all 5, or if you want to reorganize that system to be most approachable to you. All that's doing is it's bringing you back into the present moment, which allows you to reconnect to any sort of thing that you're trying to navigate in that moment. I also suggest the concept radical acceptance, which is a more like key distress tolerance And radical acceptance involves fully acknowledging and embracing your present moment, including all of the difficulties and the discomforts that you're feeling, without trying to change or control it. And I know that seems kind of counterproductive to the idea of balance, but if you think about yourself, for example, on a boat, let's say it's like a small, like one-person boat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Mm-hmm.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:39]: And you notice that the waves are kind of rocking you back and forth a little bit, and you're trying not to tip over on the boat. You might, unfortunately, in order to try and control that situation, you might overcorrect as the waves tilt you in one direction, and that might make the boat tip over. So what we don't necessarily always want to do is focus on how we control a particular emotion or discomfort. Sometimes it pays off to simply acknowledge its presence and be like, wow, Wow, this doesn't feel great, and not put that expectation on ourselves to fix it or change it or figure it out. And what you might tend to notice, as per somebody mentioned earlier in the chat, is that that thing that's making you feel uncomfortable or distressed might be outside of your control, which tells you that it doesn't fit into your key balancing act, right? If something's outside of your control, all you can focus on is what you can do in that moment. And using radical acceptance and kind of acknowledging that discomfort can kind of lead to that realization, helping us through that process. So those kind of original tips focused a lot on some of those emotional aspects and kind of being kind to ourselves and really focusing on, on that cognitive piece. I also feel like it's helpful to kind of provide some practical balancing tips, especially as we relate it back to the academic side of our experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:09]: So think about like our organizational tools, our time management tools, things like that. So first and foremost, for balancing, we can think about creating a schedule that includes self-care, specific breaks, or other relaxation techniques, right? We're trying to kind of organize and balance things out a little bit. We might block out time in that schedule for things that we value.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:34]: Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:34]: So for example, if we really value our social connection, we're gonna wanna schedule time to make sure that we are connecting with those we care about, family, friends, so on and so forth. If we are really into a particular hobby, being able to make sure we create space for that in whatever capacity we can helps to create balance when things are stressful. It can also be time between classes, activities, work-related events, things like that, to kind of give yourself a chance to reset or emotionally and mentally recollect. I remember during my grad school days, I would focus on like my commute as a great way to just kind of disconnect from what I had just been experiencing before I enter into my next role or, you know, my specific thing as soon as I got home or went to work or whatever it was. So maybe I use that as a time to listen to music or listen to an audiobook or just allow myself to listen to the car sounds as I was driving on 75 wherever I was going. So think about some of those ways in which you can organize your time to kind of create that balance. We can also consider shifting and shuffling priorities when needed, right? So maybe it's okay for me to shift my work schedule around to make room for this time I need to study before my exam, or maybe I can shuffle around this thing that I had scheduled or this preemptive study time to focus on being present with my family for a little bit, whatever it might be. It's also really crucial that you work together with your loved ones, your peers in your classes, or colleagues to kind of create a sense of support and accountability.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:18]: Doing this all by yourself can be really hard, and I think a big part of why these webinars are offered is to showcase that there are resources and spaces on campus that can help you feel like you can maintain this, this kind of project for yourself and engage in the things that you want to engage in. So be mindful of what's around you, who you're connecting with, and utilize them in that way. And then once again, some of these basic time management skills— so planners, calendars, using task lists, whatever feels like it's going to be most applicable to you and your experience. And this could also be a great time to try something new if you've never tried it before. This is a good time to explore some of those areas before we start the semester so that you can kind of consider how that would fit into your daily experience. I think it's helpful too just to remind yourself that priorities change, and as we try to work towards balance, we might notice that something calls our attention over the thing we were originally trying to balance out. And it's okay to focus on other areas of your wellness as you try to tackle one that's been particularly difficult. Because if our wellness areas make up a whole person, sometimes we got to, you know, figure out how to deal with this part of our emotional wellness before we figure out how to take care of our spiritual wellness.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:41]: And we don't know that until we start exploring some of these different areas. So once again, that's where that kind of self-compassion and kindness can come into play. As I mentioned, when we were kind of going over our overview for our conversation today, I wanted to specifically take some time out to talk about boundaries, which is an aspect of this balancing act that we're talking about here. Boundaries in particular, I think to some degree have been a bit of a buzzword over the years, but they're really crucial in helping you build your own confidence and kind of maintaining your own sense of identity as you work your way through the U of M Flint community. And I think it's helpful to consider that there are several different types of boundaries that you might engage in. Some might be more applicable in one area of your life over another, but I put this helpful kind of graphic up here to kind of give you some insight into what these boundaries might look like. So we have boundaries like our mental boundaries, emotional boundaries, internal boundaries that help us kind of self-regulate as a As opposed to boundaries that we set with other people. We of course have our physical boundaries, time boundaries, and even the way in which we converse with one another.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:03]: So not an exhaustive list, but once again, a helpful kind of diagram to give us an idea as to what types of boundaries we may or may not need to set in our time at U of M Flint. So let's think about what the process actually is in setting boundaries. So setting boundaries is really focused on building a sense of understanding your limits. So you know you best. You're likely to kind of be able to do these self-check-ins to be like, wow, you know, I'm doing this thing and I've realized that I've hit this threshold, right? I am above this threshold in whatever I'm feeling. I know that sometimes I feel like that in group work where I'm trying to communicate with somebody and I'm having some challenges. I know where my limit is. So I try to set some boundaries in order for me to not get frustrated or feel resentful or challenge other people in my group.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:00]: So ultimately, you might ask yourself through self-check-ins, am I getting enough rest? That might help you give an idea as to where your limits are in terms of how much sleep you're getting. You might ask yourself, am I doing too much? Or is this particular situation nourishing me in the way that I need it to? So those self-check-ins can kind of help you define those limits. It's important that when setting boundaries, you're considering when you need to say no. I think that's pretty typical in that boundary space. Once you've known a limit, you might say no to something in particular to kind of help address that issue. But it is also important to know when to say yes. So yes to something can help build our confidence, can help challenge us in different ways to help balance out some of those core wellness dimensions. We also want to be able to kind of determine what our priorities are.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:54]: So what exactly are the priorities in that particular situation? And are these boundaries that I need going to align with those priorities? Or even asking yourself, is this situation aligning with my priorities? So once we've kind of established some of those things, although it's not necessarily as clear-cut in the real world, I like to break it down into these 3 steps in terms of how you're going to set your boundary. So first, you're going to define the boundary. What does it look like? What specific thing are you trying to create a boundary? So going back to the previous slide, we might look at, okay, I'm going to set an emotional boundary, or I'm going to set a time-based boundary because I know that I need to leave in the next half hour if I'm going to make it to work on time. So you're gonna define that boundary. Next step, you're gonna communicate that. You're gonna showcase to yourself, how do I communicate? How do I say this in an appropriate way? How do I say this in a way that is effective and clear? And consider who your audience is. You might set a boundary differently with a professor as you do with a best friend. It just depends.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:07]: And then the last step is set your consequence. So we're not necessarily talking about ultimatums when we think about setting consequences, but rather what's going to happen if a boundary is not respected. So if I set a boundary and somebody doesn't respect that, is the consequence that I'm going to reiterate that boundary and then say, look, I, I can't engage in it this time, I'm gonna have to leave right now, I can't stay for that extra 30 minutes that I had before, right? So what does that consequence look like? And even more so, when you set that consequence, that's you essentially setting yourself up to be held accountable internally on reinforcing and engaging in those boundaries. It's one thing to set a boundary. It's a whole other thing to reinforce them and kind of enforce them in a way that kind of keeps us accountable. So let's go over a quick example slide of what some of these boundaries might might look like. So for example, I might word a boundary such as, I'm going to be honest and vulnerable with myself. That might be an internal type of boundary that I hold myself accountable to.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:15]: Or I might say, I'm going to keep a gratitude journal. That's kind of like a material, perhaps, boundary that like, I want to engage in this thing. I'm saying yes to this thing, and I'm going to hold myself accountable to that. I might also say, as a friend, you shouldn't be gossiping about me. That's another type of kind of social boundary that we can set, right? We're very clearly communicating like, hey, you're gossiping about me and that's not okay as a friend. You might also say, I'm uncomfortable in this situation, so I'm going to leave, right? So that's a clear boundary, a clear expectation stating without too much detail what you're experiencing. This is my wording. This does not necessarily reflect what you yourself will feel or what you yourself are going to experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:37:02]: So keep that in mind that although these are some examples, they may not perfectly line up with your experience and you might word them differently. But each of these kind of give a clear depiction as to what a boundary could be, and you can set time limits to them. You can add them in particular situations. It just depends on where you need to set that boundary. So as we look at wrapping up here, I have a few more slides to just kind of talk about last thoughts and then some resources. I think it's so crucial to consider that as you're practicing balance and boundaries, it will not happen overnight, you feeling balanced. You might feel closer and closer that you're getting to that point, but it takes a lot of practice to engage in this work, and it requires a sense of understanding that you're likely to make mistakes and that it's gonna be kind of challenging, that if we don't feel it overnight and we choose to stop, we're not gonna achieve that balance in the way that we want to. So be kind to yourself in that process.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:05]: And the more you practice, the more likely it's going to be second nature and more of a habit for you, the same way we build habits in other ways. And ultimately, when in doubt, if you're not sure if you should set a boundary, if you're not sure you should do a coping skill, if you're not sure what you should be doing, you can always ask for help in whatever context that you're in. Maybe you need to ask for help by extending an assignment, sending an email to your professor. Maybe you just need to yap about it with your friends for a little bit and really process through that information before you determine what you need to do. Ultimately, Ultimately, you have people on campus, you have people in your life who are great soundboards in trying to navigate and work through these stressors as you start your grad degree. And it is perfectly acceptable to ask questions and really get to know what other people are doing too, so that you have something to go off of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:08]: Reilly, great job. Thank you so much for all of this. You did a great job as always. So thank you very much, Reilly, for being here tonight and for sharing all of this amazing information, and wish you the best as you start the new term. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:52]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Darien Wilkerson tackle a challenge nearly every graduate student faces: imposter syndrome. Through a thoughtful conversation, the episode explores what imposter syndrome looks like, why it happens, and—most importantly—how you can manage it to foster success throughout your graduate experience.

Defining Imposter Syndrome

Right from the start, Darien Wilkerson clarifies that imposter syndrome isn't a mental health disorder, but rather a common "thinking error"—a cognitive distortion that leads capable, accomplished people to doubt their worth or believe their success is due to luck. If you've ever questioned whether you truly deserved an achievement, wondered when others would "find out" you're not as competent as they think, or attributed accomplishments to external factors, you're not alone. Many students, regardless of their background or experience, feel this way at some point.

Recognizing the Signs and the Cycle

The conversation delves into the broader impacts of imposter syndrome: chronic anxiety, burnout, perfectionism, and the need for external validation. Darien Wilkerson draws attention to how these feelings can create a repeating cycle—doubt leads to over-preparation, achievement brings only brief relief, and then the process repeats itself.

Crucially, the episode discusses different "types" of imposter syndrome, based on research by Dr. Valerie Young: the perfectionist, the expert, the soloist, the natural genius, and the superhuman. Recognizing your own tendencies in these categories can be the first step to addressing them.

Why Does It Happen?

Many factors contribute: family and cultural expectations, pre-existing mental health challenges, negative comparisons to others, new or unfamiliar environments, and even being part of a minority group in an academic setting. Understanding the root causes can help frame your feelings and set the stage for effective strategies to manage them.

Practical Strategies for Management

Most empowering, the episode offers actionable steps for listeners. Darien Wilkerson encourages acknowledging feelings without judgment, challenging negative self-talk, celebrating accomplishments (even small ones), and embracing a growth mindset. Simple exercises—like naming your achievements or reframing negative thoughts—can shift your perspective and boost confidence.

Listen and Grow

This episode isn't just an exploration—it's a toolkit for students, offering both understanding and real-world steps to thrive, not just survive, in grad school. If you've ever struggled with doubt or the pressure to be perfect, tune into this episode of Victors in Grad School for practical guidance and a reminder: you absolutely belong.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Tonight we're going to be talking about the imposter syndrome and understanding imposter syndrome. It's definitely something that most graduate students are going to have happen to them at some point, and it's important to have some some hints, some tricks, some things that you can do to be able to prepare yourself, but also to know what to do when it happens. And I'm excited to be able to have another colleague friend from our university here. Darien Wilkerson is with us. Darien is with our Counseling and Psychological Services Office. You're also gonna hear it called CAPS, and that is our Counseling and Psychological Services Office on campus. And they're here to support you. And I know that Darien will talk about that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: So I'm gonna turn it over to Darien. Darien, thanks so much for being here tonight.

Darien Wilkerson [00:00:57]: Yeah, likewise. Thank you, Dr. Lewis. And again, welcome everyone who's about to be joining U of M Flint in your graduate studies here. So my role this evening is just going to be walking you guys through understanding imposter syndrome just a little bit. So having a little bit more context, ideas, and some strategies, because like Dr. Lewis said, at some point, whether that's in the program or beyond, we're going to potentially navigate Or go through our own process of this phenomenon, right? And just trying to figure out how do we work through it? What do we do? So we will jump into that. So some quick learning objectives.

Darien Wilkerson [00:01:35]: Again, we're gonna understand that defining that definition of imposter syndrome, identify those self-patterns associated with imposter syndrome. So as we're going through this PowerPoint, start to really reflect on yourself currently. What could be possible? What's currently happening right now? Getting into graduate program in itself can feel like that too, right? So just really start to reflect currently where you're at and just kind of examine those factors that contribute to self-doubt and perceived inadequacy. Going to learn a little bit about applying those strategies to challenge imposter thoughts and reframing those negative self-talk, and then ultimately learn to develop those healthier approaches to success. And hopefully trying to get more self-compassion, growth, and recognition of your current accomplishments and future accomplishments. So I will try to stay mindful of the chat in case there's questions that kind of come through. Hopefully with time we'll be able to get to some questions, but just let everyone know I am trying to stay mindful of that. So feel free to kind of put those in the chat when it comes to mind.

Darien Wilkerson [00:02:40]: But I just want to set the stage for us. As we're kind of talking about imposter syndrome, I think it's fair for us to get into a headspace, right? So I start with this slide. Have you ever— these are some of the go-to questions, right? Felt like you didn't deserve an accomplishment? Wondered when someone would realize you weren't capable of something? Attributed your success to luck or good timing? Or you felt like everyone else knew what they were doing except you? These are really the starting blocks of questioning that we put on ourselves that makes imposter syndrome start to become active. So it's good to recognize, man, do I really say this to myself? Are these common themes of questioning that I do? And if so, how do we start to start— how do we start to address those things now so they don't move into an introduction of imposter syndrome? So let's get into a little bit of the definition. So imposter syndrome is a psychological cognitive distortion. That's a fancy word, but it's basically just saying a thinking error. We all have thinking errors. They come up from time to time.

Darien Wilkerson [00:03:50]: But really, imposter syndrome is not a mental health disorder or a challenge. It's just a thinking— how we're thinking, how we're processing something, right? And that involves feelings of self-doubt. Inadequacy, personal incompetence, and that persists despite the education, experience, or accomplishments that you already have. So it's really this thing that says you're not capable when there's so much evidence that says the opposite, right? It's like I said, a large amount of people will probably experience that within their life, and it's not a diagnosable mental health challenge. This is something that we could go through depending on various different factors. So how does it present? That questioning on the last slide is typically how it starts. So it starts to— it starts with questioning ourselves. We have negative self-talk, which is more so just like really saying negative things about ourselves on a regular basis.

Darien Wilkerson [00:04:46]: Inability to internalize accomplishments. So maybe if you're hearing an accomplishment, you might start to question or doubt it. And that continues that feeling of inadequacy, right? Because we don't leave room for Positives. So those are quick definitions, quick, you know, symptoms, if you will, when it comes to what imposter syndrome can look like. So future concerns. So this is happening on a regular basis. What are some of these concerns long term if we don't find management? So that imposter syndrome can lead to anxiety, you know, where we have high levels of chronic anxiety. Because we're questioning everything, right, and our capabilities.

Darien Wilkerson [00:05:28]: Depression, low mood can come up. Burnout, overworking, meaning you might have to feel like you have to prove yourself. So in proving yourself, you're working more and more and more just to try to, you know, show people I am worthy, I am capable. And that could potentially lead to burnout, overworking. That also leads to perfectionism. You don't really have a lot of room or space to want to make mistakes because if you don't feel like you belong, You feel like you constantly have to be perfect. So perfectionism can be a challenge or a concern. And then external validation, you might be craving that external validation all the time.

Darien Wilkerson [00:06:07]: And that could be good or bad, right? And how that shapes us. Self-sabotage, right? So we might quit a job. We may not want to pursue the degree that we want to pursue because we feel like we just aren't able to do it. That can lead to procrastination because procrastination typically is trying to protect us from failure, right? So we delay starting something in fear of us potentially failing that thing. And then self-criticism and low self-esteem, they kind of unfortunately go hand in hand together. But this is talking about our image. How do we view ourselves? And how are we talking to ourselves on a regular basis? So those are some of those feature concerns when we talk about imposter syndrome, which is really important that we're We're trying to have this conversation now so these future concerns don't become so pressing. Okay, so the next one, I think it's good to talk about the cycle that imposter syndrome can have for us.

Darien Wilkerson [00:07:07]: So really, when you're thinking about imposter syndrome, it starts with a task. You get assigned a task, you get assigned a responsibility, or you move into a new role in your life, right? And that can create a flooding of anxiety or overpreparation. Right? From that anxiety over preparation, it can go into the yellow, which is task. It'll eventually get into a task finish, like you either complete the assignment, you complete the degree, right? And there's a quick moment of relief from that experience. But then we start rationalizing our accomplishments. I got lucky. Someone else would be better. There's something that starts to scale down our our accomplishment, right? Which leads to more self-doubt, less confidence, and the cycle continues there and there and there and just repeats itself, right? So if you recognize where you're at potentially in this cycle, that can probably help you slow down and stop and reflect.

Darien Wilkerson [00:08:05]: What is going on? Why am I in this situation? How can I get myself out of this cycle so it doesn't continue on again? So I just thought it was a good idea to introduce what the imposter phenomenon cycle can look like, just so we can be mindful moving forward. Another thing I think that's important is that there's different types of imposter syndrome. We're talking broadly, but there are different, like, distinguishable features of imposter syndrome, right? So this researcher, psychologist, Dr. Valerie Young, she did research And really composed of 5 different presentations and how imposter syndrome can come up. So we talked about it a little bit, but the perfectionist— so you don't have any— you don't have a lot of room to make errors. If you make an error, then that's automatically associated with shame. You have to be the expert in something. If you feel like you're not the expert, then you feel like you're failing, and that brings up shame as well.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:03]: So you have to be the best of the best. That's what the expert imposter is trying to say. If you're not the best at this, then You're not going to be good at this. Now, the soloist, basically meaning that it's wrong to ask for help, or you have a lot of anxiety or shame for asking for help. You should be able to accomplish this by yourself, right? The natural genius is talking about aptitude. You should have an aptitude to get this done with ease or speed. And if you start to struggle, then that starts to make us question, am I capable? Am I deserving, right? So then the last one is just talking about the superhuman. So that measures competence based on how many roles you can juggle or excel in.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:47]: So if you're someone again who wants to be seen as like, I can do this, this, this, and this, and this at the same time, that's overwhelming to us, right? And we might not be able to manage that. So the superhuman is trying to say, I can do everything. Like, you can look at me, I can— I'm the person for the job. So again, these are 5 distinct ones, and I also believe if we are aware of which ones we fall into, our personalities lean towards, we can kind of start to rectify that so it doesn't get to a very severe state. So those would be the 5 types of imposter syndromes, right? Or presentations. So I am keeping an eye on that chat. So, all right, move forward. So causes.

Darien Wilkerson [00:10:38]: So we're talking about imposter syndrome. How does it occur? You know, what does occur, but what's the causes? Why do people get into this headspace, right? So there's a couple of different reasons. One is family dynamics, maybe, and that can also go into cultural expectations. So those kind of tie in together. So what does our family say about failure? What does our family say about being successful? What does that look like? And that could be tied into cultural expectations as well. So if you feel like you're failing based off of what you grew up knowing in your culture and your household, imposter syndrome can really flare up, unfortunately. Preexisting mental health challenges, so anxiety, depression, you know, these kind of common mental health challenges can be a precursor. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but You just have to be more mindful around how you're internalizing setbacks, failures, challenges, because imposter syndrome can come up when it comes to that.

Darien Wilkerson [00:11:38]: Negative fear-based comparisons. So if we're constantly comparing ourselves to other people, we don't look at comparison as a way of improving. We look at it as a way of being negative towards ourselves. I'll never amount to that, or they're better than me in this. We start to say these things to rationalize our position, and then it just makes us feel down, right? Novelty, while novelty can be good, like I said, those new opportunities and responsibilities can also create imposter syndrome. I'm new into this program. I'm new into this field. How— like, I don't have the backing or experience to say that I'm going to be good.

Darien Wilkerson [00:12:18]: So since I don't have that prior experience, you start to question and doubt, am I even going to be good at this thing, right? Lastly, I think the last one goes to cultural expectations, but holding minority identities Can also be room for imposter syndrome. Doesn't always happen, but if you're a minority going into a certain space, that can create imposter syndrome just initially, because you're trying to want to prove yourself, right? So there's a couple ideas to kind of think about for ourselves, right? But if any of those speak to you, this is time to reflect and just be mindful of how we're carrying some of those things. Okay, so conquering it. What are some of these strategies? So 4 steps for you, just quick things to keep in mind as you're trying to tackle the imposter syndrome if it does ever occur for you. Number 1, you just want to acknowledge the feeling. Whatever's coming up for you emotionally, you want to validate the presence of the emotion, minimize judgment towards that present feeling, and remind yourself that feelings don't always mean that they're facts. The only thing feelings do is gives us a direction to go towards. It doesn't say that's definitive or that's proof, right? So one, you just want to be mindful and just acknowledge that feeling.

Darien Wilkerson [00:13:39]: If you feel like you're disappointing someone, you feel like you're failing, if you're getting sad, start there and acknowledge that feeling. Step 2, challenge inner critic. So there's a critic that comes up, right? We talked about negative self-talk. So if you're saying negative things, you want to start to challenge the doubt. You want to challenge those things that come up for you. Ask for the evidence, whether that's internally to yourself or you start having conversations with other people. And also try to identify overlooked strengths. Identify successes you're not taking ownership of.

Darien Wilkerson [00:14:12]: It's probably a handful of things that we do that we just expect ourselves to do. But when you slow it down, you're like, oh, That's a big thing. I actually did excel in that. I did get into this program. I did get the grades and the test scores to actually show that I'm capable, right? So you want to start challenging those inner critic voices that come up. You want to do that early in. So that's step 1, acknowledging the feeling. Step 2 is challenging those— that inner critic.

Darien Wilkerson [00:14:43]: Okay, so this is a Brief reframing example. So the thought can say, I only got this opportunity because I got lucky. And then you want to start to challenge that thought, right? So some questions you might ask yourself is, what's the evidence for this thought? Is there any proof that supports it? And then what's the evidence against it? And you start to kind of put your thoughts on trial, basically, right? And then you start to create this catalog of information. And that will help you rationally understand, well, this thought doesn't have a lot of weight to it at all. And then you start asking more questions like, what would you tell a friend who had this thought? If you shift the perspective and you put it back to a friend sharing with you, well, I got this opportunity because I got lucky, what would you say to that friend? So that perspective-taking kind of helps us rationalize a little bit differently how we're talking to ourselves. And then the last one is, am I holding space for compassion? Am I really being compassionate to myself right now? Right? So I would say those are some of those 4 guided prompt questions just to ask ourselves when we're trying to challenge a thought. And I thought that was just probably something hopefully of value just to really start the conversation with ourselves or with somebody else if we had to. Okay, step 3.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:08]: Own your accomplishments. Easier said than done, right? But you want to start to reflect on your accomplishments and also celebrate those accomplishments. That could be celebration is pat yourself on the back, go out to eat, let somebody know. Just do something that celebrates and acknowledges, no, I did this thing. It actually happened. And then embrace the praise objectively. Right? Just allow the praise to occur. Acknowledge the discomfort internally if you hear the praise, but also to say, yeah, they have a point there.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:40]: They're right. I did do this thing. And then ask an unbiased observer for evidence of your ability. So if you really feel like you need to have the extra mile, go the extra mile, ask someone else. Like, hey, did you like— and that could be a manager, that could be a boss, whoever. Those people are the ones that can really give you hopefully unbiased evidence or answers to some of your questions. And next to this is about an exercise you can try to do on the regular. Just 3 accomplishments that you're, you know, that you're proud of, 2 strengths you used to achieve them, and 1 piece of evidence that shows that you are capable of ongoing success.

Darien Wilkerson [00:17:21]: It's something you can try to do every now and then just to remind yourself, like, Yes, I have accomplishments in my past. Yes, I have these strengths, and this is the evidence of that strength. That might be helpful to continue to form positive thinking and reflection of our success, just so we can start to own up— own our accomplishments for step 3.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Okay.

Darien Wilkerson [00:17:47]: Then getting into step 4, recognizing Perfection is not a real thing, right? So you want to go from perfection to growth. So recognize progress is more important than perfection. Success does not require perfection. Failure can be a teachable moment. So if you're in— as you're in school moving forward, if you feel like there's times that you feel like you failed, that does not mean that's the end of your story or end of learning or growing. It just means that you have a moment where you can actually get the most out of the opportunity. You can ask questions, clarifying questions, consult with people, try to figure out how do I ensure that this doesn't happen to me again, right? And that can hopefully lead to self-compassion, which removes you from going from a place of judgment and shame to actually being able to grow from that situation. So really, step 4 is talking about just being, being kind to yourself and just trying to be in a growth mentality versus a perfectionist mentality.

Darien Wilkerson [00:18:51]: And that should hopefully guide us through any kind of imposter syndrome that could come up. So the finalized toolkit list is just talking about, you know, start to finish what we just discussed. Acknowledge the feeling, check the evidence, challenge the thought, avoid negative comparisons. If anything, use comparison as a motivator versus anything that could bring us down. Practice self-compassion. That could be through the accomplishments that we talked about. And also just remember the accomplishments, accept the praise, and focus on the growth. So those are just, just a quick toolkit list of just reminders, just so you have those.

Darien Wilkerson [00:19:33]: But yeah, that's what I have for you when it comes to imposter syndrome. How do you tackle it? What it, what it is. So now questions. If anyone had any of those questions, that would be a good time to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:47]: Darien, this is great. Really appreciate you sharing all of this. It definitely opened my eyes to some things that I hadn't even thought of, and so I really appreciate you walking us through this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:00]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you setting out on the next step of your academic career? Whether you're a prospective student or already admitted, the journey into graduate school can feel both thrilling and daunting. In the recent episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis gathers a powerhouse panel of UM-Flint faculty—Dr. Amy Yorke, Shelby Newport, and Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer—to share insight, encouragement, and practical advice for students about to embark on this transformative chapter.

Curiosity, Openness, and Risk-Taking: Keys to Thriving

One of the major themes in this candid conversation is the power of curiosity. Shelby Newport highlights how students who approach their studies with an open mind and a "thirst for knowledge" get the most from both their coursework and their relationships with faculty. Every panelist underscores the value of taking risks—introducing yourself to professors, trying new things academically, and stepping outside your comfort zone.

Dr. Amy Yorke expands on the idea of risk-taking, urging students to be proactive in making connections and embracing discomfort as part of growth. Rather than seeing new challenges as obstacles, the panel encourages reframing them as opportunities to become stronger, more resilient scholars.

Building Meaningful Faculty Relationships

A standout point from the episode is the importance of genuine interaction between students and faculty. Whether you're studying in-person or online, building connections early makes it easier to ask for help, gain mentorship, and tap into career opportunities down the line. The panel advises introducing yourself, participating actively, and reaching out even when things are going well—not just when you're struggling.

Embracing Support and University Resources

Graduate school is demanding, but you're never alone. The faculty share practical recommendations for time management, advocating for starting strong, using campus resources (like counseling and library services), and communicating openly when life hits a rough patch.

The Bigger Picture: Growth, Balance, and Belonging

Perhaps most powerfully, the episode reminds listeners that while grad school brings new pressures, it's also about self-discovery, finding balance, and developing a community of learning. Both vulnerability and persistence are celebrated as essential ingredients for success.

Ready for more inspiration and concrete advice as you begin your graduate school adventure? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and let these expert voices guide you toward a fulfilling and successful graduate experience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited that you're here today for the first of a number of sessions that we lovingly call our Jumpstart Orientation. It is a way for us to be able to help you to make that jump start into graduate school. And I am so excited to be able to kick off with a few of our faculty members that are joining us today to be able to talk to you about jumping into graduate school, what it's like, what to expect when you get to here for your classes, and to be able to help you in this journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: I've got 3 of my friends with me tonight, Dr. Amy Yorke from our physical therapy program, Shelby Newport from our Arts Administration program, and Dr. Mohamed Mekawer from our Artificial Intelligence— no, yes, Artificial Intelligence program. I'm like, wait a minute, I just lost it for a second. I am so excited to have all 3 of them here today and be able to moderate a conversation with them. But what we want to do is engage with you too. So this opportunity is going to be, I'm gonna ask them some questions that I've prepared, but then really, if you've got questions, throw 'em in the chat. And we're, you know, no questions off bounds.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: We want to answer your questions tonight to be able to help to demystify what it's gonna be like and to help you to better get yourself prepared. So, so my friends, thank you for being here. Really appreciate it.

Shelby Newport [00:01:55]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: And I'm going to kick this off by asking a question to all 3 of you. From your perspective, what separates graduate students who really thrive from those who struggle in graduate school?

Shelby Newport [00:02:09]: Who wants to kick it off? Should I jump in?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:02:12]: Go ahead, Shelby, and then I'll follow up after you.

Shelby Newport [00:02:14]: Great. Um, hi all, welcome. Um, like Dr. Lewis said, I'm Shelby Newport. I'm a costume designer and in the Department of Fine and Performing Arts in the area of theater, which is where arts administration sits. And what separates our graduate students, I think, might be the same as all graduate students, which is this curiosity and a willingness. And so you come in the classroom and you know you're not the smartest person in the room. You act like you're not the smartest person in the room, and you're there with this curiosity for Like, bring it.

Shelby Newport [00:02:51]: What is it gonna be? And I'm ready for it because I just have this like thirst for knowledge. And those are the students that get the opportunities to work alongside faculty more often, who get the opportunities for the faculty member to say, that paper was so great and had so much in it. I want you to submit it to this conference and come alongside and present with me. Like, those extra opportunities come to those with that.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:03:19]: Gonna add to that with that curiosity is the risk-taking. So being willing to introduce yourself to the faculty member face-to-face is really powerful, but even an email has meaning as well. Being willing to kind of take that risk of stepping out of your comfort zone. So even if you have never like engaged in research, but you're curious about it, of saying, you know, are there any projects that you're working on? projects that you need help or assistance with. Any of those things of taking risk. Because if you're not feeling uncomfortable, you're not growing, and graduate school is going to push you to grow. And you'd rather have it— you'd rather have you kind of leading that a little bit with some pushing versus being pulled all the time, because that becomes really, really hard. So just adding on to Shelby's curiosity, I would add taking risk.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:20]: All right, so I guess it's my turn. So hello everyone, good afternoon, and it's my pleasure to talk about to you about my experience. So my name is again Mohamed Makour. I'm actually from the computer science background, so I direct software engineering and AI. And I will probably, to add to what Shelby and Amy were saying, I'll talk about my experience, right? So when I did my bachelor degree, I was looking for a degree to get a job. When I went out for my master's, I was looking for opportunity. I wasn't looking for a degree. I already have one.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:51]: I already have a job. And I've already seen a lot of problems in industry where I was working. And I realized that I need to develop some skills that are needed for me to go to the next level, to upscale my career, right? So the master's program was not a degree that I was seeking. It was an opportunity for me to develop better skills that can help me be better in what I do as a software engineer back then. And then I realized I enjoyed that kind of problem solving so much that I have to also continue with the PhD level, right? So, so to me, grad school is where you realize, okay, this is where I am right now in my career. Can I do a shift? Can I improve it? Can I go deeper into some topic that I think I enjoy the most, but I don't have the appropriate skills for? And that's how you kick off your master's degree. To me, this is how you succeed on it because You are actually now driving your own decision on where you want to specialize versus you are, as in the bachelor's, taking a bunch of courses just because you want to have a degree and you have no background, right? This is how— this is my perception of a successful, you know, graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]: How should students approach their first few weeks of graduate school to get off to a strong start?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:03]: What advice would you give to students who are struggling with time management?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:06:08]: I would encourage students to review the course syllabus and start to put down dates in your calendar of when things are due, and knowing that you have a life outside of school. So depending on if you're a full-time student or part-time student, right, we're all very, very busy. And so establishing like, this is when things are due, so you can start to plan your other activities or make adjustments adjustments or changes, I think it's really important. And I always encourage students to start strong, like study more at the beginning than perhaps what you think you need, because you don't want to find yourself like in a hole. So in the physical therapy program, our majority of our students are full-time, and the hard thing is, is when they have study habits that they used in undergrad and they believe that those study habits will continue to serve them, such as waiting to study for an exam until the night before. And then And then they realize that does not serve them well, and they find themselves in a hole. You don't want to find yourself in a hole. So knowing what your schedule is and perhaps studying and being engaged in the content more upfront builds success, because success begets success.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:07:23]: So that's my word of advice for you.

Shelby Newport [00:07:27]: Mohamed, I liked your story about how you started your graduate experience, and I want to share just a little piece of mine, which is an MFA in costume design and theater. Purdue University, a big school and on-site, not online. But my advice as a now costume designer is when you look good, you feel good. And so look the part. Think about how you present yourself on campus or in an online setting. Because in my Arts Administration program, it's fully online. And so yeah, we know you're in and out and you're doing stuff and you're joining a 5:30 class, maybe running from dropping off the kids and getting dinner ready and sitting down. But when you're in it and turn your camera on and you're in it, like, what does it all kind of put together to show your faculty member that you are ready to learn? You've got that curiosity and that willingness, and you're in it.

Shelby Newport [00:08:23]: Doesn't mean you don't have pajama pants on the bottom. You know, maybe that's the case, but like, be ready.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:32]: All right, so let me, let me start where I ended earlier. So in the, in your bachelor's degree, we are most likely told what to take as courses. In the master's program, this is your opportunity to decide about your own path, right? A lot of programs, at least the one that we administer at the CIT, at the computer science, we allow students to have their own custom-made paths, right? At least as director, I would say that the majority of my students, they don't follow the same path in their courses. It means that each one of them will have like a pile of courses that they choose based on their preferences, based on the challenges they are facing. Facing in their careers. And therefore, it's your opportunity for you to choose carefully what courses will contribute to your career and do so. Something that you may not do necessarily at the bachelor's level. So this is how you start strong is by selecting carefully the courses that will benefit you the most.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:23]: And I like also taking risk. Take risk at the master's level by taking courses that can really challenge you in different ways. That being said, in the master's program or in the graduate level, you have a career. You have a life. You have a family. Also pace it carefully when you do so, right? So you don't have to go full-time if you can't. That's totally fine, right? It's the graduate programs are designed to help you with your own pace. We can actually work to make that happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:54]: How can students build meaningful relationships with faculty rather than only interacting with them when they need something?

Shelby Newport [00:10:04]: Well, in those online spaces, it's showing that engagement. And I think it's really easy to be a camera-off person, and it's— it's in some situations call for that. But as much as you can, show the faculty member in those synchronous online classes that you're engaged and you want to be there. And that's interjecting with a hand up or comments in the chat, whatever that class kind of rhythm is, but it's, it's an engagement.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:10:35]: There's nothing sweeter than being called by one's name. And so I think, again, like doing that introduction. So whether it's online or face-to-face, hi, my name is Amy Yorke. I'm one of the members in your class. Here's just a little bit about me. I'm excited to be here. Like that touch, that, that point means a lot. Don't ever think that you're bothering faculty to share to introduce yourself because you're not.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:11:01]: We're here to help you. Some— there's been numerous people along my path that have helped me, and it's, it's those reaching out points. And if you don't do it in the first couple weeks, don't think that you've lost your chance. Don't, don't, don't think you've lost it. And I also encourage it to happen early because you don't want your first contact with the faculty to be like, I'm struggling. And I don't know what to do. That can absolutely be the first contact, and don't be afraid to contact the faculty member if you're struggling. But if you start to develop that relationship sooner, it just makes it— it makes it a lot easier relationship.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:11:39]: And the more that I know about you and what drives you and why you're here and what your goals are, the better able I'm gonna be able to help you reach all of those.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:53]: Let me give a different perspective, which also based on my own experience. So I did my master's in University of Michigan-Dearborn, and during that master's/PhD, I had interactions with a lot of faculty that were not even my teachers, and I was able to benefit from them without being in their classroom. It's you being in a university means you are being with a lot of people that have a lot of added value that can really contribute to your career in so many ways, right? So do not just stick to the classroom. Be open to faculty who have projects, who have initiatives, who have clubs, who have events. Be there, participate, and, and build that network, build that connection with them, because it could be beneficial in so many ways. So therefore, you are here in university taking a class, whether it's online or in person, not doing anything like other type of, you know, learning, like, you know, tutorials or YouTube or or Udemy or whatever. You are here because you are looking for human touch. So benefit from it and make sure you connect with your faculty in so many ways because it will stay beyond your degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:03]: Mohamed, let me, let me go a little deeper on that. How would you say that students should take advantage of faculty expertise beyond what happens in the class?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:13]: Absolutely. Let me start with this one, and I will give you examples, right? So one example was that students come to the classroom with problems, right? Challenges they either experience in their classroom or they experience in their careers, right? Find the right people who have not just the experience or the skill set, but also they have the excitement about this topic. Because us faculty, we are all excited about some topics, right? We all are engaged in some ways in some specific topics, right? Recently one student came to me and say, I have an experience in how we can refactor code, right? And to me, this is my favorite thing in the world, right? So automatically we connected, we started working together, we published papers together, despite that they are not in my classroom. It's as simple as that, right? They were able to benefit from the tool I developed during that time, and I was able to develop some research. So it happens in so many ways, right? For instance, I will give my own example when I was a student. There was one faculty in Dearborn that they have a book. They had a book about software engineering and I spent countless hours discussing chapters of that book, you know, and how we can improve that book and how we can benefit from it. Because I was reading it, I was excited about it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:24]: I brought a lot of things that I think they should improve. And guess what? I'm using that book right now in my classroom after it was improved, right? So yes, you can benefit from that connection in so many ways if you are already engaged. If you bring your own problems to the table, you can actually find people who can share that excitement about those problems.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:44]: Shelby or Amy, any thoughts on that one either?

Shelby Newport [00:14:49]: I'm not sure if it directly goes back to your original question, but just to say that I have in the past worked with graduate research assistants that were studying something else but were interested in exploring like my costume and theater history research. And those have been really productive relationships, to Mohamed's point. So there are opportunities not only in that social aspect and kind of where adjacent, but also maybe something that feels really different, but that the university offers. And maybe it scratches an itch in creativity or something else that helps your brain work through the stress and complications of your actual degree program, but gives you money as a graduate research assistant somewhere else. And those, I think at UM-Flint, we do those interdisciplinary, transdisciplinary relationships really well because we're small enough to be able to know each and interact as faculty and as students across the campus.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:15:52]: And I would add to that, some of the best conversations I have with students are not necessarily related to the content that I'm teaching, but it's related to things like, I really like the way that you teach, like, or I really noticed this about something very specific, you know, like I'd like to teach someday. And so that type of interaction of expertise I think that's a really good piece, not only like specifically for me, like as a physical therapist who specializes in neurologic rehab, but like outside of that, that as a student, as a human, you recognize characteristics of people. And in general, we like to talk about ourselves. And so just like we want to hear you talk about ourselves or yourself, if you ask us a question about ourselves, we're always very willing to share. And perhaps indirectly provide you some ideas for your own professional growth and development and some maybe indirect mentoring as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:54]: What are some common mistakes that you see graduate students make that can hurt their success or their relationships with faculty?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:17:04]: Not asking for help, I think, is one of the hardest— is one of the key areas that Yeah, and I would—

Shelby Newport [00:17:41]: similar to that, I have seen students that just totally ghost, and that disappearing when you're feeling like you're not being as successful as you want to be, or you're overwhelmed, or whatever that might be, is not useful. Because of the intensity of these programs and the expectations on you as a graduate student, it's really important to communicate when you're struggling. And so that's to Amy's point, it's asking for help, but it's also just telling me what's going on. It's letting me know that someone in your family is really ill, and you're in the caregiving responsibility role, and it's tough, and you're trying to keep up. With that information, because we know you're adults, you're different than undergraduate students. I mean, I want my undergraduate students to say that as well. But I think with graduate students, you have so many things layered into your life right now. And to know just a portion of that lets me be a better teacher for you and supporter and mentor and sets you up with resources that you might not even know you have on campus.

Shelby Newport [00:18:48]: So if I had a student say, I just lost my babysitter and now I can't come to the 5:30 Tuesday night class and like stuff's going on, I would tell you that there is backup childcare resources available for students. That's a co— it's called— you can all Google it— UM Emergency Backup Care. It's a benefit that you get as a student, I get as a faculty member, and it provides vetted care for children in emergency situations in your home or in a center. And like, maybe you didn't know you had that. A lot of my colleagues didn't know they had that. So in conversation and saying that you're struggling helps those resources come out as well.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:19:32]: So maybe my number one advice to students or to avoid the mistake that I see happen a lot is is the mistake of starting your work late. You know, graduate school is designed for you to challenge you in so many ways, and working on your assignments late means you are starting to work on a problem that requires a reflection while you're very stressed because you are catching a deadline, right? And that stress of catching a deadline will actually make you miss the whole point of the assignment. So a lot of my— at least this is speaking maybe out of my own area of specializations. If you're working on an assignment the day of the deadline, you may actually get it done, but you will miss the whole point of the assignment. You will not have enough time to reflect, to think of it, to think of how you can improve that problem and what makes it really interesting. You will just get it done and you will miss the whole point. So therefore, starting early is key to be able to understand, reflect, think of it, and give an answer, right? So students coming to me and say, if I start my assignment this much, would I be able to finish it? You can finish your assignment anytime, right? So that's not the point. The point is whether you understood.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:50]: We all have a life, we all have issues, and we all have things to balance. So giving yourself time to go through the assignment, you know, while you in a period of time will help you benefit from it more than you do it in one shot.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:21:06]: Chris, I want to add one more thing. Being resistant to feedback or not accepting feedback when it's provided. The spirit of feedback is intended to help you grow and develop. And I've realized something that I'm working on as a faculty member is I realize when students are resistant to feedback, sometimes I'm less likely to give it, which doesn't help them. And so it's something that I'm working on as a teacher of, for, for when I'm giving feedback and there's resistance, of trying to explore that resistance a little bit more with that student to try to help them understand that it's intended to help them. So I would say being resistant to feedback is also just a real— if feedback doesn't tell you that you're bad or that you're not smart, it's really intended to help you And that made me think of another thing, Chris, too, that this—

Shelby Newport [00:22:08]: I'm terrible with these kind of phrases, but what's the see the forest for the trees, trees for the forest, right? Like, think of, to Mohamed's point, like, we scaffold and build the curriculum. And so in this kind of starting late or thinking about each of your classes as separate trees, you're not seeing the whole forest of this this thing that we have designed as curriculum to build on each part of it. And so like, oh, good job, I'm done with marketing class. Well, like, that's going to come back. And there's elements where we want you to build upon each of those and bring in knowledge and projects and the feedback, to Amy's point, feedback that you may have gotten in the first year into your second-year classes, into that thesis project. They're going to build on each other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:59]: And so keeping that in mind, Amy, earlier you talked about mentorship, and if a student wants a faculty member to eventually serve as a mentor, what can they do to develop that relationship naturally over time?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:23:23]: Chris, I apologize, but I got distracted by the chat box, so can you repeat the question?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:28]: Sure thing. Now, earlier you talked about some faculty becoming mentors. If a student wants a faculty member to eventually serve as a mentor, what can they do to develop that relationship naturally over time?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:23:43]: I think just having conversations with the faculty regarding any of the work or content that's being developed, you know, attending office hours, asking the faculty member to share their story. You know, I'm curious, how did you get where you're at. What do you like most about your position? You know, what are some challenges that you're experiencing? And just having conversations. Going back to something Mohamed said too, like talking to faculty like outside of the classroom. So if there's club activities, those different types of things, or seeing them at a university event, all of those things really help foster that relationship. Over time. And I think that is somewhat key, that the more that we talk over time and I get to know you and watch you grow and progress, mentoring might change a little bit depending on what your needs are. But those are some strategies.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:24:51]: So if I may add, I'm going to talk about an experience that I had just today. Because I have office hours today for students who are registering for my courses. And one student came to the office hours and said, Professor, in my company we have this issue, you know, we have agent people using agents to develop some code. So how do we verify whether these agents are correct in the way they enter, you know, they put code in our systems, right? And I said, how do you think you're going to solve this problem? And he proposed a solution, and I proposed another solution. Then we end up converging towards a hybrid solution that I thought would work better for in this case. So this conversation ended up us deciding on the spot that he has to do a master's thesis or do an independent study where he can develop the solution. So bringing the problems to faculty on the table is one way for you to connect with them immediately if they have a common interest to solving these issues.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:46]: Shelby, anything you wanted to add with that one? No. Okay.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:25:52]: I can, I can add one more thing because I can answer the question about the graduate assistantship, right? If the faculty has interest into this, solving this issue, they may have opportunities for you to connect through assistantships this way, right? Because now you're not only you solving this issue in your own context, but also helping the faculty in their own research, right? And this is how you can connect with them through graduate assistantships, right? I personally get, what, 10, 20 requests a week now about people wanting to become my research assistants, right? And over the years, I accepted only a few, the ones that were actually pointing out to the issues that I thought that I was trying to solve myself. So, and this takes time, by the way. You cannot just pick those. You have to have that natural connection through, you know, that faculty because you work in this area, they work in this area. This is number one. Number two, they are both working on the same the same problem, and this is the best organic way for you to become an assistant for that faculty. So find the right faculty that share your same interest, and this is key for you to become a research assistant in their labs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:03]: Yeah, and one of the things that I'll add there is that just in general, the way that the University of Michigan Flint works in regards to graduate assistantships is We post them usually in the spring. We are actually just posting them now for the fall. So if you go to the Office of Graduate Programs website, you can go on to the Office of Graduate Programs website, click on paying for graduate school, and in there, there's a link to information about graduate research assistantships. Those are the assistantships that we have available here. They are mostly part-time assistantships, meaning that most students are working about 6 or 7 hours a week, and you apply for them like any job. Now, you only want to apply for things that you're qualified for. So I always put that out there. You don't want to apply if, if there's a physical therapy position with Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:00]: Yorke and you're a computer science student and it says it's only for physical therapy students, Don't apply for the physical therapy position because that's just going to upset Dr. Yorke because she's going to have to go through everybody. So that being said, take your time. Usually there's about— usually we have about 50 to 60 assistantships per year. So it's not a lot. But they are going— the faculty are going to be reviewing anybody that applies and looking for the best fit. So it's, you know, they are going to be looking at everybody and they might interview you. It's like a job.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:38]: So you're going to be interviewing or you're going to be— they're going to consider you, they're going to reach out, they're going to ask questions, and then they'll try to identify who's best. If you don't get selected when you first come in, that doesn't mean you can't apply in the future. And you can always do that. And sometimes that comes down to what all 3 of our panelists have already said about getting to know your faculty. I tell students all the time that when you're in class, there's going to be times where your professor is going to say, I have an opportunity. I have a— I have something that I need some people to do. Who wants to do it? Put your hand up. Be that first one to get your hand up and volunteer.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:19]: Yes, it's going to take some time, but you're going to build a relationship. That relationship could lead to a graduate assistantship or some other opportunity that you never knew was coming. So that being said, even if you don't get something coming in the door, keep looking, keep applying, keep, you know, keep building those relationships because it's going to help in the future.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:29:41]: Persistence pays off. Like, being persistent matters because sometimes the first opportunity, maybe there was already somebody set for that position, but another one comes up. And based on my interaction with you, I was impressed. And I thought you would be great also on this, and then I'm more likely to reach out to you. So don't, don't, don't take it personally if you don't get it. Be persistent in a very like professional way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:11]: Now, one question earlier, I think all 3 of you were talking about that students need to advocate for themselves, and if they're struggling, they should speak up. Because graduate school can be challenging, what should students do when they're struggling academically or personally rather than waiting until things become overwhelming?

Shelby Newport [00:30:37]: Using those university resources. I think it's easy as a graduate student to not think of yourself like embedded in, in what a college has, but remember, probably very similar to your undergraduate experience, there is a counseling and Accessibility Services Office, and that office provides free counseling to you as a student in both online and face-to-face ways. They are really good at their job, and they are really well suited to work with students of all ages. And so that is, again, one of those benefits that is yours because you are a University of Michigan student. And so remembering that those resources exist and finding them when you know, that moment of struggle comes. Same with the library and all that the University of Michigan offers, tutoring services. And, you know, my program is inside the Rackham Graduate College, which has Ann Arbor-based resources. And so pulling on those resources is really A useful thing and a sign of a successful student.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:31:50]: And I would prefer, like, the instant you have an inkling, like, maybe I should tell my faculty this, tell them this. And it might not— like, you might not need anything from me, but, you know, like, I want to let you know that my grandfather has been placed on hospice. And so if I get a phone call, like, I might have to miss class. Like, that is the instant you know that something is going on and it may impact your ability to attend, participate in class, or complete an assessment on time. Let the faculty know. And if you— if something happened unexpectedly, the sooner that you say something, the better it is. And so I think being open and share what you want to share. Don't—

Shelby Newport [00:32:37]: if you—

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:32:37]: you don't have to share Details, but if you say, I'm having a family emergency, I'm gonna be out this week, my plan is that I'm gonna connect with these 2 of my classmates. If I need to meet with you, I'll email you separately. Like, that shows a very proactive student who's already trying to solve the problem, because by telling me, you're not asking me to solve the problem. You're just simply communicating to let me know ahead of time that you're something is happening in your life that really prevents you from being the kind of learner that you want to be, and sooner is better than later.

Shelby Newport [00:33:21]: Yeah, question in the chat about access to the libraries in Ann Arbor. Yes, and Dearborn too, right? You have— you can check out books using your Mcard with all of those things physically and also utilize those. Parking is sort of a challenge, but there's also city street parking in a variety of places. So yeah, unfortunately, our parking passes don't have reciprocal access. But I have gone to Ann Arbor campus to work, you know, use the Wi-Fi, and that's great. Lots of resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:00]: Mohamed, were you unmuting to say something or no?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:34:03]: Yeah, I was about to say that, and this is me speaking of my own experience with students, right? Just to also, you know, augment what Amy was saying, letting us know what you go through can help us also not— I mean, usually students think that these problems are obstacles and faculty will just give extensions to kind of— but this is not how we perceive something. You know, we perceive them as opportunities for us to also even connect more, right? I've had students who came asking for extensions. I said, no, no, no, no, no. If you are going through this, this is how we should solve this issue, right? Because there are different ways that we can address problems that you are going through, right? Whether it's in your learning curve, whether it's a family urgency, whatever it is, there are multiple ways for us to walk through this. So let us know the situation as soon as possible so that we can walk through the proper way of solving it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:57]: How much should students be willing to step outside of their comfort zone and ask questions, participate, and seek opportunities? And kind of secondary to that is, what do you recommend for those that are scared of stepping out of their comfort zone to get into that place where they can become comfortable being I'm going to say in that— with that imposter feeling at first, because I know that we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome right after this with everybody that's on, and every student tends to fall into it at one point or another. So how do you deal with that as well?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:35:43]: So since I'm on mute, I'm probably going to start. So, and the imposter syndrome, at least in the context of computer science, comes from AI. And large language models being now available. And the first thing that I kind of trigger with the students is, are you able to be— to say that you're better than ChatGPT or whatever, right? Or Gemini, right? And this is how I kind of trigger that moment for them to think about how— and this is actually bringing a question that they all have in their minds. Would I be replaced? Am I replaceable? Would AI replace me in the future? Would this job exist or whatever? And I use that conversation to start advocating for how they should properly use AI and how they should also evaluate themselves and their learning curve within AI, right? Because if you are able to find yourself doing better than AI, then you definitely are valuable for industry, right? So those who misuse AI are out of the game. Those who don't use AI are out of the game. for sure. So how would you properly use AI? This is how we can trigger that conversation.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:36:49]: And this is how I can tell students to start self-assessing them, you know, self— do that self-assessment with AI to see how they can be better than AI by using AI. So, and I use this also to combat the imposter syndrome at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:02]: Any other thoughts, Shelby or Amy?

Shelby Newport [00:37:06]: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that Yeah. Getting yourself to a place where you are willing to be and able to be vulnerable in an uncomfortable topic or feeling like you are an imposter in this world is a really good indication that you're learning. That is where change happens. That is where growth happens. And So I mean, in— I don't know that I was great at it in the beginning of graduate school. And I was definitely using my earlier advice of like, when you look good, you feel good. Like, act the part. Like, dress for the job you want and not the job you have.

Shelby Newport [00:37:54]: Do that. Get yourself there and get yourself prepared for that. And then you move into those spaces. And it never goes away, I think, is also advice, right? That— and so to cultivate how do you feel and how do you recognize that uncomfortable moment where change is happening or growth is happening makes you a learner for life and a really valuable person in our— in any of our fields because you're thinking differently and you're willing. And so I feel that, like, a lot. And when you feel that feeling, that means change is happening and growth is happening. So it's an indicator rather than a barrier.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:38:42]: Yeah. And I would encourage instead of, like, using the language, like, fake it till you make it, like, try it till you triumph. Like, placing it that way. And if you I don't know if you have read or heard about Carol Dweck and like her idea of like fixed mindset versus flexible mindset, like even just doing a quick Google search and learning a little bit more about that. And I think that sometimes when we're learning something new, we come very fixed because we think that we're being judged on what we know and what we don't know. When in reality, like, you are here to grow. So you really want to embrace this more flexible mindset. Like, maybe it's just not yet.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:39:22]: I don't have it yet, but I'm going to keep working and practicing, and I'm going to keep getting better at that because repetitions matter. No matter what our profession is, the more opportunities we have to practice, the better we get at it.

Shelby Newport [00:39:37]: I'll also add another catchphrase sort of like that. If you can flip your mind to a place of I get to do this instead of I have to do this, You also might, you know, get yourself into that place where change can really happen, growth can happen. We get to do this work every day, and it's really, it's pretty amazing, and that's not lost on me, and with really amazing humans like you all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:05]: Now I see in the, in the chat there's some questions about where faculty put syllabi and things like that. Do you, the 3 of you, want to talk about how you do that in your courses?

Shelby Newport [00:40:16]: Yeah, so Canvas is our learning management system. If you likely have access, but you probably don't have shells open yet, you might have a community shell like we have in Arts Administration, a community shell that you're automatically in. And I do announcements and things like that no matter what class you're in. So you may have access to something like that. Otherwise, your syllabi are all going to come out on a class-by-class basis, and that usually happens just a couple days before the class begins. You could reach out to faculty, specific faculty, now if you want to get a schedule or get a sense of, you know, the overall scope. You have access to the curriculum of DBA program and MSC cybersecurity. Those programs are all online and the curriculum is there.

Shelby Newport [00:41:03]: That's going to tell you each of the class names and the course description that's available on the university catalog. But individual expectations and syllabi is going to come out with faculty on a semester-by-semester basis.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:41:19]: So I know like our students won't be able to access it to the day class starts, but like Shelby had offered, if you are just thinking ahead and you want to just email the faculty member, just say, I'm curious, you know, would you be willing to share it with me, or when might it be available? Just simply put a request. If I had a student today ask me for it, I would say it's not quite done yet, and I, as soon as I get it done, I will share it with you. So you can always ask. Just be prepared that you might not be able to get exactly what you want when you want it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:41:52]: Yeah, just to put this in more context, which I think this is shared between all of us, faculty typically, they would have to do some rounds of revisions to their courses right before the semester starts. This is how we do it. We always do this right before. We take the feedback that we get from the students. We take the new updates, whatever updates we have. We also get the feedback from the peers. If the course is being taught in multiple sections, we listen and we coordinate with other faculty. And all these activities, they happen right before semester starts.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:42:22]: So therefore, syllabi may not be ready by that time. However, if you're searching for general topics that will be taught in the class, that's easy. That we can answer in a second. We can say, oh, this is what we're going to be covering in the classroom. But if you ask about the mechanics and the distribution of grades or whatever, However, this will take time, and you will know this right before the semester starts.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:50]: Other questions? I see we're getting close to the end of our time, and I want to make sure that we answer all of your questions before I give them a— maybe a final question. Not seeing any others yet. Let me ask you this. If you could give every incoming graduate student one piece of advice about building relationships with faculty and succeeding in graduate school, what would it be?

Shelby Newport [00:43:21]: Just one is really hard, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:28]: You can give 2 if you want to give 2.

Shelby Newport [00:43:30]: We've touched on a lot of those overarching elements today already about connection and willingness But I think that if I haven't already said the word openness as it relates to willingness, my advice would be open to what might come. Yes, you've pursued this program that is a narrowing of your interests into something really specific. So you're going to hone in on that. But how can you be open to what might come about, whether it's a line of study or a research project or any of those things? They, you know, they happen and come about when you're open to what the universe might give you.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:44:22]: I'll start with something that my father used to tell me when I was younger. He was always telling me, Mohammed, if you're doing something and it turns out to be easy, you're probably doing the wrong thing. And that somehow turns out to be true. And that's true all over my career. So if you are working and you are in your school and you're struggling with something, you're probably on the path of learning. So use that struggle as an opportunity for you to improve yourself rather than an obstacle that would prevent you from doing it. So yes, you will find issues. Yes, you will find challenges.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:44:52]: But you're here for those— you're here to go through them. And this is what makes you proud of your degree in the future. Thank you.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:45:00]: Something that I commonly say to the students is have fun and learn a lot. And so like, just learning should be fun. Doesn't mean that it's not work, and you want to learn a lot. So I'll keep it very simple.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:16]: So we do have a question in the chat. Someone's asking your thoughts on if someone is transitioning back to graduate-level education after a long time away from school and going from a traditional learning environment to an online learning environment, what would you recommend to them?

Shelby Newport [00:45:39]: Yeah, I think that this is really common for a lot of graduate students, so you're not alone first, and the resources on campus are really good for online learning. I think we do this really well at UM-Flint. The Office of Online and Digital Education is a great place to start for kind of your own orientation to our systems. Canvas, I already mentioned, is going to be the hub for all the information— the syllabi, your grades, announcements. Some faculty use it a lot, some use it very little, but it will be that place where you can count on to see it all in one place. And so that should be bookmarked and something you check every day. And then And just like your face-to-face learning, you had time set aside in your life to go to that class. And so if your program is an asynchronous class and it's up to you to find those times, schedule those in.

Shelby Newport [00:46:38]: Make the time that you are going to be doing the work of that asynchronous class. That means it doesn't have a Zoom face-to-face or online meeting, but schedule it into your life. And this is the time that I I am going to be uncompromising about what else is going on because it's as if I'm in class. So get yourself into that kind of situation, and maybe that's going to a coffee shop or going to another place so that you ready yourself for that kind of learning and the concentration you need in those online asynchronous classes. And then with online synchronous classes, that's like what we're doing tonight, though tonight we're in what's called the webinar mode, and so we can't see you. Most of your online synchronous classes are going to be in a more open format where they're, you know, you can all be boxes on the screen and there's a little bit more action and interaction happening. You know, a faculty member may share their screen and they're showing a slide deck that will then become available for you to look through, and maybe it is kind of lecturing, but if there's prompts and there's questions and there's chat activity, you're engaged in those kind of things just like you would be if you were sitting in the class. And again, that same advice of readying your for learning in that online synchronous way.

Shelby Newport [00:48:00]: So some days you have to be in the car to do that. But most days, if you can find yourself that calm space that is dedicated to your learning, if it's in your house or wherever that might be, you know, gets you in the same kind of mindset that you were when you were walking into the classroom in a face-to-face way.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:48:22]: And again, don't be afraid to ask for help. So when I first started teaching, that's when I was— the first time I was like ever used a learning management system. And I, for so long, I would just try to figure things out myself before I would contact like the Office of Distance Education. So feel free. There's a 24-hour chat thing in there that you can ask somebody that, or you can contact the Office of Distance Education during normal working hours. It's pretty powerful. So like, don't be afraid to ask again. Like, don't, don't get frustrated trying to use the technology when we really want you to learn the content.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:48:57]: The technology should be relatively easy to negotiate, and if it's not, ask for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:49:04]: Mohammed, I see you're unmuted. Did you want to say something?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:49:07]: Can you guys hear me? It's awesome. Yeah, so I cannot agree more with what Shelby and Amy were saying. I will try to also answer one question from Sonny, I think, about coming back to school after a while. I'll try to do this all together. I'll see how that works. So those who come back to school after a career, you're not a student. You are someone with a career coming back to school, and that career can dictate a lot of way— can contribute in so many ways to your new learning experience, right? Because we as faculty, we are also looking forward to listening to your experience, to learn back from what you have learned, what are the obstacles you faced in your career, right? And this can also enrich our conversations in the classroom. So don't be afraid of bringing all the challenges, all the issues you experienced, and also bring your expectations to the table, right? Say that this is what I have learned over the years.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:50:03]: Do you think that this would also be beneficial to me if I bring this up, right? Right? So, and I will explain to you that, I'll give you some examples. A lot of students, they bring their class projects from their work, from their careers. A lot of students, they use their thesis as a medium to solve issues in their careers. Some students, they use the assignments as mediums to develop solutions for their own problems. So all these opportunities, don't be afraid of asking faculty, can I do this this way? And they will be more than happy to guide you whether this is feasible One more thing that is specifically for online asynchronous students. If you are coming back to school and you're from industry, try to take classes synchronously more than asynchronously, right? Because, and I know this is based on my own experience, whether this applies to all the majors or not, I don't know. But I know that asynchronous students tend to have a way that they miscalibrate the effort. in the classroom.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:51:01]: Maybe students who are asynchronous— sorry, synchronous or in-person, they go to the lecture on a regular basis, so they discover whether they are struggling or not early on. But those who are asynchronous, they treat the class as on-demand, so they discover later that they are struggling, and they are 3 weeks through the semester, and now they have an assignment, and the professor has talked about this a long time ago, and they feel you know, stressed about coming back and asking those questions late, right? So therefore, if you are an asynchronous student, start early. And as Shelby was saying, put time so that you can not just learn, but also you discover whether you are in the right pace or not. You have to pace yourself. We cannot pace you because you're not in the classroom, right? So therefore, you have to pace yourself and you discover what is the appropriate pace for you and do this very early in the semester.

Shelby Newport [00:51:54]: Some of those asynchronous classes are only going to release information to you on a weekly basis. Some will release the whole thing, and then you really have to self-pace. But you'll be able to see that in the syllabus. You'll know what is expected on a week-by-week basis. Usually graduate— I mean, I don't know. I guess I shouldn't talk about all of them. But in online classes, things are structured over a one week, like week 1, week 2, week 3. And so you're thinking about it not necessarily as you may have in undergrad of like a Monday, Wednesday, but it's like weeks, week chunks of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:52:36]: Any final words for any of you that you want to leave the students with this evening?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:52:42]: Tammy had just put in the chat box what was the biggest obstacle overall for her. And I would say for me, I was a master memorizer. And being a master memorizer got me through undergraduate, but it did not help me be able to apply the concepts I needed to apply. And so for me, I had to change the way that I was learning content. That was a huge obstacle for me for my transition from undergrad to graduate. So don't memorize, really try to understand and apply, differentiate.

Shelby Newport [00:53:15]: Yeah, and I think for me it was like recalibrating and, and re-understanding my definition of balance, which is still like a part of life now. And as life has different chapters, I still struggle with that. In graduate school, sometimes that felt like these really intense periods that I was like totally overwhelmed and didn't have time for anything else. Should it be this hard? And then other times was like, what? I think I'm supposed to be doing something right now. What am I supposed to be doing? And so And that came because I went directly from undergrad to graduate school. And so I was thinking that it was gonna be the same, and somehow it wasn't. And that the expectation of the kind of work and the intensity of work in different periods, I needed to recalibrate and redefine for myself. And I would just say that that's actually maybe my biggest obstacle in life, and that each chapter you change and figure out how that balance works for you?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:54:18]: When I, when I started my grad school, I always felt excited about going to university because I was meeting people who I always thought they're smarter than me, and this makes me really better. So I was measuring my progress by how much I learned every day, and I realized that university is the best place ever to learn because people are genuinely nice, they're smart, and they care about others. That's why they're in academia, not in industry, right? Because they're also, they care, right? And that's why I didn't want to leave this environment after finishing school, right? Because people are genuinely caring, you know? So use that and think about it that way, and you'll see how much you'll enjoy your grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:57]: Well, Dr. Yorke, Shelby, Dr. McCower, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your experience, your wisdom with all of us. and helping our students to make that transition into graduate school and get a better perspective from you as faculty members as they prepare to connect with their faculty members. And I wish you all the best.

Shelby Newport [00:55:21]: Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Thank you all for choosing UM-Flint. We're so lucky to have you in our, in our community of learners.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:28]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate journey. Thank you. on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

If you're considering graduate school—or searching for inspiration on how to thrive once you're there—the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dr. Bennie Harris, Chancellor of the University of South Carolina Upstate, to explore the transformative journey that advanced education offers. Their conversation is packed with wisdom, practical advice, and deeply personal stories that illuminate the many paths one might take through graduate school and beyond.

A central theme from the episode is that the graduate school journey is unique for everyone, but learning from the experiences of others can help smooth your own path. Dr. Bennie Harris shares how his initial pursuit of engineering was driven by practicality, but his true passion for education and empowering others ultimately shaped his career. Even after obtaining his undergraduate degree, Dr. Bennie Harris realized he wasn't finished learning. His return to academia began with an MBA—chosen strategically for its flexibility across education and the private sector—and culminated with a PhD focused on strategic service marketing.

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Bennie Harris emphasizes the importance of building relationships. He credits the people he met during his studies—professors, classmates, and mentors—for helping him grow intellectually and personally. These connections provided support, challenged his perspectives, and contributed to his ongoing success. Graduate school, he argues, shouldn't just be about credentials; it should be about becoming the best in your craft and using new knowledge to support and uplift the communities you serve.

Another powerful message is the value of adaptability and curiosity. Dr. Bennie Harris encourages listeners to approach each stage of their graduate journey with an "empty cup"—ready to learn, unlearn, and be challenged. He shares actionable tips for navigating the politics and expectations of graduate programs, including fostering transparent communication with advisors and embracing goal-setting with room for revision.

The episode wraps up with advice for those weighing graduate school: Don't just chase degrees for prestige—pursue programs that elevate your thinking and make a broader impact. Use graduate education as a means to innovate, collaborate, and give back.

Ready for a dose of motivation and real-world guidance? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and let the journeys of those who came before light your way. Your future self—and your community—will thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together as you are preparing yourself, For this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school, that is in graduate school, are going to go through the process a little bit differently. No one person's path is going to be exactly the same as another, but you can learn from others in what they found out in their own journey to help you in your individual journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to you to help you to be able to gain some tools for your tool belt.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:00:59]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: toolbox and allow for you to be able to learn from others that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, been successful, and found some things that have worked for them that could work for you. And today we've got another great guest, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here with us today. Dr. Bennie Harris is with us today, and Dr. Harris is the chancellor of the University of South Carolina Upstate campus. And I am— I got to hear him speak at a recent conference that I was at, and I was really excited to be able to have come and talk to you about the educational journey that he went on and some of the things that he's learned in his own journey through graduate school and beyond into the work that he does now in education. Dr. Harris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:01:45]: Thank you so much, Krista, for allowing me and inviting me. It's an honor to be here and talk about education. Education is really important to me. So thank you again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and spending some time with us today. And one of the things that I love doing as I start these opportunities to talk is to really Turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Mississippi State University. And when you were there, you were an engineering major, got that undergraduate degree in industrial engineering. And at some point after graduation, you had an inkling. You had an inkling that you weren't done. Take me back to that period of time where you were out in the workforce, you just— and you said to yourself, you know what, I'm not done. I need to go back to school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: What was going through your head?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:02:29]: I made a decision to go back to graduate school while I was an undergraduate. And actually, the way that happened was I had been an engineer. I was at co-op for a year. I had did another summer program at Mississippi Power and Light Company at co-op, and I'd come to learn enough about myself during this time in college to realize that engineering was not my passion. However, I had gone so far in and had invested so much time into it, it was not prudent to make a change. And so I did work as an industrial engineer for a brief time, but I immediately found a course back to higher education. I was going to get a master's degree in student personnel. Actually, I wanted to be a math teacher.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:03:09]: And Mississippi during my time, you know, you did say let's go back. And so we're going way back. And Mississippi during my time, educators were not paid much. And so growing up poor rural community, and it was more prudent for me to follow my intellectual skills of science and mathematics and pursue engineering and to get a pathway out of poverty. But along the way, I kind of found my passion. And my passion really was empowering other people, particularly the peers that I were around. So I got excited about that. I was going to change my major after my junior year to education.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:03:41]: I took all my records over to the College of Education, and the way they were structured, it was going to take me another 3 years to graduate. I had to go and do all these prereqs. I said, nope, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go ahead and stay focused and get my engineering degree. And so I came to a place where after I graduated, trying to figure out how to get back into higher education, A mentor of mine invited me back to be her graduate assistant. Before that took place, she took a job at Washington State University, and she then had opportunities available in her office. She was at the time the director of affirmative action special programs, and so she had a compliance coordinator. I was good at statistics and other types of technical skills, and so she thought that my skills aligned with the work, and so she offered me an opportunity.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:04:23]: So I went out to Washington State sight unseen. and became the best compliance and EEO coordinator I could be. I learned as much as I could about the law, about the Office of Federal Contract Compliance, the Office of Civil Rights, the Office of Equal Employment Opportunity, and you would have thought I was an expert. At least I presented myself that way. So that's kind of how I got on that tread. And when I got into that, I knew I wanted to get a master's degree. So Washington State paid for employees while I went to school, so I decided to get an MBA in strategic marketing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: So talk to me about that, because there's lots of— I know Washington State, and Washington State's a big institution, so you have an opportunity to go into a lot of different directions. You chose, like you said, to do the MBA. Talk to me about that decision. What was the reason for you that you decided that versus something else?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:05:10]: Well, what I came to realize while I was at Washington State University doing the work that I was doing, I was also was able to follow my passion around student empowerment. So I started a leadership conference called Black Male Orientation to Leadership Development where I was developing young men across the state of Washington, and it became a conference that was over Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and we had a few folks coming from California, and we ended up having about 600 young people to come up across those states to develop leadership. And so I was able to do that part of my passion. Our president was supportive of that, my boss was supportive of that. At that time I had promoted, etc., and I was becoming much more focused around the business of education. And so I didn't treat affirmative action or EEO or compliance like the regular compliance agenda of an institution. I approached it more as a partnership with our deans, with our colleges, And so what I realized is that higher education did not do a good job at marketing itself even then. It didn't do a great job at telling the story, did not do a great job at— and the word telling the story was not the word in terms that we used during that time, but really bringing people along and saying, here's the why.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:06:31]: So Washington State was under an Office of Federal Contract Compliance They had had an audit, they had failed that audit, and they had to recreate some of their policies. And they recreated because they just weren't following their own processes. So, so I went to the deans and I went to the vice president and said, what is it that you want to accomplish? Let's create policies that are legally viable and policies that accomplish that. So we would do a partner's accommodation. Where if you recruited someone in biochemistry who— and coming out to Pullman, Washington, it was not a metropolitan, so we had to get as much workforce as we can. Then if he or she had a partner and they needed a job, then if there was a position available within the institution, then that the institution needed— let's say that partner was in a faculty in criminal justice. Or something like that, then the Provost's Office will give 2 years of funding for that Criminal Justice Department to hire that faculty on a temp appointment, and then that person will be competitive for a permanent job in that particular college. So it increased our ability to elevate diversity at the institution, and it— instead of our search committees doing a workaround the search process, I became more of a partner.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:07:57]: That really helped me to understand that we need to be a lot more strategic in how we talk about our partnerships, how we talk about elevating. And I wanted to position myself if I wanted to go back into engineering at any point. So I said an MBA could do both. It could align with higher education and it could align with any future aspiration I potentially may have when I decide I want to make some money. So I'm still thinking about that too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:24]: Now, before I get into it, because I want to talk about these transitions that you're making, but I also know that a number of years after you got your MBA, you made a decision to keep going with that education, and you decided to get a doctorate degree. Talk to me about that and what made you decide that you wanted to jump back in after a few years. off of not being in education in that, in that regard?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:08:52]: I think that's what graduate school really offers. As you pivot and as you grow and mature and become more informed as to where your passions are and who you are and what your aspirations— and that changes. I'm one that believes that as you set goals, that you give yourself permission to edit those goals. And so annually I will look at my goals and my wife and I will look at goals and that banned affirmative action, etc., in admissions processes in California. And so kind of saw the writing on the wall, and I had— I did my project, a project in my MBA with Weyerhaeuser Corporation in Tacoma and total quality management. And I was looking to say, okay, I'm going to go back into industry and do total quality management. The president, Sam Smith, at the time, and my the Vice President for Institutional Advancement, Connie Kravis, had appealed to me to stay at the institution and to see if there was anything else across the institution that I wanted to do other than where I was, right? And so Connie was trying to recruit me into Institutional Advancement because I was working with her in my other capacity to help increase the diversity and the gender representation across her division in advancement. And that went exceptionally well.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:10:36]: We— people would say, well, we can't find them, we can't get them. And we've been extremely successful at Washington State in recruiting highly talented people to Pullman, Washington, in the Palouse. We had deans who were of color. We had a woman vice president for business affairs. We had a woman provost that came along. We had all of these executives of all diverse backgrounds. that were coming and attracted to Washington State, and it debunked the myth that nobody will come, that we can't get them, right? So she said, Bennie, I think you'll be a great fundraiser. And I'm like, you know what, I have no interest in being a great fundraiser.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:11:14]: I got to be very careful what I say because this is a live podcast. I have no interest. My image of being a fundraiser was Driving Miss Daisy, and I did not see myself pushing no old gray-haired women to the symphony to ask them for money. That was just not in my cup of tea. So she sent me to a case conference to learn about fundraising, and I went to this case conference at Dartmouth, this training, a week-long training. And they had all the— they introduced us to annual giving, planned giving, corporate and foundation relations, major gifts, principal gifts, all the different areas of institutional advancement, prospect research. And then I came back and talked to her executive team, and she said, if we offer you a job, what would it be? I said, if I did it, it would probably be corporate and foundation relations because I have an engineering background. I write relatively decently.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:12:06]: I think I can appeal and make a case for why industry should invest and foundations should invest into our institution. So she offered me a job on the spot to do that, but because I didn't have experience in this space, professional experience. I had volunteer experience, etc. I came in as an associate director for corporate and foundation relations, and then I, as I proved myself, I quickly promoted. Now I share that because what I was looking for at that time was a change. I was looking for a change, and I wasn't quite sure where I wanted to go, but I know I was young. I was recently married and I knew that I needed more income or I wanted more income. So I was thinking about going back to industry.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:12:51]: I even thought about going to law school. And I was looking at going across the country. My wife and I had— they'd only had our first child. And so I was like, I gotta get to a place where I can work and go to law school. And then I was going to do corporate law and litigation, those type of things. And it was Had to be January. I had done the— I had done my LSAT, had done a decent job on taking that. I had done Kaplan, all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:13:22]: I had interviewed, and not formally interviewed, but I had went to several law schools, met with deans, met with the people in the admissions committee. And in January of 1996, that desire was completely taken away from me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: Why?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:13:39]: I had zero desire— though, in January of 1997, right? I had zero desire to do law because it wasn't what my passion— I was motivated by money, but it wasn't what my passion was. So, um, I got a job offer in the summer because my wife wanted to go back to— we had had our first child, she wanted to be closer to Mississippi where her family was, and I had committed to do that for her after me being 7 years in the Pacific Northwest, she being 5 years there with me. We took a job at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and that's— it was there that I decided on a PhD because I was doing external affairs and advancement work to support their campaign. But what I recognized is that people did not appreciate what was happening in higher education, and we had legislators who were writing legislation that was anti-higher education, and they spent 4 or 5 years with us And how is it that we did not make them evangelists for what we do and our value? Their kids were— had degrees, they had degrees, yet they were writing legislation that said a 4-year degree in higher education was not necessary. And I'm saying necessary for whom? Everybody else? Your kids, but no one else, right? So, so that made me get my PhD. I was going to get it in strategic marketing to look at marketing higher education institutions, and UAB did not have a PhD program, so I had to get it through the graduate school. I did a joint program with UA and UAB that I did my dissertation, my research on service quality, looking at how do you elevate and assess quality and the value proposition for a service environment, something that you don't own a product. but you own the experience and you own the credential of that.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:15:30]: And so that's what influenced me to get my PhD. And as a result of that, I thought, okay, I'm gonna now be on a platform where I can do research, I can write, I can become an advocate for higher education, and I can help higher education institutions pivot how they tell their story, how they market themselves, and how they create alliance with this dedicated captive audience during these 4, 4 to 6 years that you have them. So when they graduate from us, they're going to go out and tell everybody how great we are and go straight into the legislators or into industry and be our biggest advocate. That was my vision for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:08]: Now, you went to 3 different types of institutions. And as you go from one type of institution to the next, from different levels into different types of colleges, schools, etc., You have to go through transitions. The transition from undergrad into your MBA, your MBA into your doctorate, and in between you're doing work and getting other experiences. But as you transition into those educational environments, there are different expectations. There are different perspectives from faculty. Your faculty are definitely, as I said, they are going to be expecting different things from you as an individual, and you have to figure out what those— both the written rules and the unwritten rules are as you're moving through those, those specific types of degrees. So talk to me about as you transitioned into your MBA, into your doctorate degree, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success before you got in and as you started the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout each of those individual degrees?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:17:19]: So one of the things— thank you, that's a great question. One of the things that was consistent through my whole experience, educational experience, is people. People were consistent, and how I work and engage people and the relationships I built. I have wonderful relationships still to this day from undergraduate faculty and staff and colleagues all the way through this. So I have folks all over the United States. and over the country— globe, rather— that Stefan Wagner, he's a professor at Zurich. I have Chi-Wei Lo. All these folks I met during my educational experience that I kept in touch with.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:18:00]: Jeevan Rago, executives. He was from India. So, and we still talk to this day, and we're talking 30-plus or longer, about 30-plus years, right? where you belong, being able to navigate that. I think at the podcast I talked about my mother teaching me to live with an empty cup, and having that empty cup in these relationships was very critical. Then going to the Pacific Northwest where the state was less than 2% African American, and Seattle was probably about 6% at the time, and the first African American I saw in Washington State in Pullman became my best friend, probably. So, so that mattered. But what it did for me was help me to challenge my own biases, helps me to challenge how I see things, helped me to have this empty cup, come in there with that where people can pour their authenticity into me, and for me to step away from my own biases, uh, that I brought to that conversation, to that encounter, became the thing that made me better, became the thing that, that, that allowed folks to invite me to the table, right? Those are things that I learned as a person maturing as a young man and going to professional session— a professional setting in my career. I'm starting to mature.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:19:44]: I'm starting to see life differently. I'm starting to see that my story doesn't corner the market on oppression, and there were other people who have oppressed stories. that they've overcame and that giving them respect and deference to that and to their victory out of those things or their culture out of those things really only empowered me and strengthened me and strengthened my voice in telling my story by embracing the legitimacy of theirs. Whether I think it's legitimate or not, to them it is legitimate and I learned to embrace that and not judge it. One of the best examples of that, I think her name was Beth friends, so I'm putting names out there. But she was the director of the Women's Center at Washington State University, and I had just come from Mississippi. Everything is formal— ladies and gentlemen, yes ma'am, no ma'am, all this kind of stuff. And so I did a speech for a Martin Luther King program, and I opened it, ladies and gentlemen.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:20:38]: After that speech, uh, I think Beth came up to me. I think this was Beth. And they— she said, I am offended by that. I said, what? What did I do? She said, I am no lady, and I don't need you to open doors for me. I don't need you to do this, and all this kind of stuff. Because there was a bias in my Southern culture is that women have certain roles. Now, I didn't think I discriminated against women, but she helped. When she and I sat down, she explained to me, said, Bennie, when you were born, you have— you were— I don't think we called it unconscious bias then.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:21:11]: You were given a Tonka truck and a blue shirt, and your sister was given a doll and a pink blanket. And we were setting the expectations around your role in society whether you realize it or not. So she educated me around that unconscious bias that I, as a man, may have, right? What does that have to do with me pivoting all these graduate experiences? Everything. Because I took that experience of having to deal with my advisors, my faculty at Washington State University in the MBA program, and was extremely successful there. When I came to the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and I had these advisors who had their own expertise, and none of them had necessarily had the expertise that I was looking to research, except I had an advisor from the College of Business. I had to help them to get their own biases out of the way as I try to pursue my PhD. So what I learned to do, and I tell folks that, young people that are all the time, that the best degree is a finished one. So I had to get out of my way, right? And, and, and so my doctoral thesis dissertation wasn't about trying to change the world, but how do I take this funnel and narrow it down and find this little piece that I'm going to research? And so when I talk to this advisor, he wants to see me this way, and I talked to this committee member, they want to see me this way.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:22:35]: So what I did from the very beginning, I will send a memo. To every last one, every committee, every meeting I had with any of my academic, my committee members, I was going to follow up with a memo. Thank you, Dr. Lewis, for a great conversation. Per our discussion, I would do X, Y, and Z. This aligns very well with what Dr. So-and-so told me, and I'm going to integrate that, and I will send you all a revised version. So what I was trying to do, what I was doing, I think, was taking away the politics, mitigating, not taking away, mitigating the politics of her PhD among your committee members and create accountability among themselves, among the committee, so that they wouldn't be sending me this way and they send me that way and I'm looking like a chicken with my neck cut off and I'm frustrated and I'm in the room crying.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:23:19]: I've got anxiety around that. I just made them a part of my council, part of my committee. I'm not a committee, but a part of my tribe. And that tribe was how do we move this particular PhD candidate, student first and then candidate, through this process in the most seamless way. So I completed my PhD working full-time. Actually, I just did a post about it this past Sunday, working full-time with children, with the wife who was working on her master's degree. I did it all, what has taken an average of 7 years. I did it in right at 4 years.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:23:56]: And I did it, and it was a very, very successful, positive one. I completed it, defended, and I had colleagues that were still struggling after— who were in my cohort, who were still struggling with their PhD until I stopped following them. So I don't know if they got it or not. I probably should go back and figure that out. But it had all to do with being able to Appreciate the culture that you're in. Appreciate the setting and the expectations of others. And how do those expectations align with my aspirations? And then bringing that through conversation with your advisor, with your committee members, having conversation with them more than just transactional conversations, but having conversation about their aspirations to bring them into your story and make them a part of what you aspire to do and what you are going to do. So they can say, I had a little part in what he became.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]: Now, each of your education opportunities that you took advantage of were a little bit different.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:07]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:07]: They were in different type of educational environments. They were at different types of institutions and at— and in different areas.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:15]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:15]: So talk to me a little bit about Now, I mean, you've completed your degrees, you've had those done for a while, you've continued to grow, and you've had other educational opportunities as well. But how do you feel that your graduate degrees helped prepare you for the role that you're in now and how you may be pulling from that on a daily basis?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:39]: Oh, if I If I was a fortune teller or soothsayer, I would say that I was able to see all of this in the future, but I did not. And what all of this means is there is so much value into an educational leader understanding P&L, understanding budgets and finance. That's everything we do. Every decision is made around, do we have the money for it? Can we afford it? What are the revenues that are coming to this institution? from the state, from the federal government. Is that revenue pivot? How do we put some of these projects that were on soft money onto some of the recurring dollars? How do we create ROIs for new program ideas? How do we— all of that you do not want. It is so powerful and empowering to be able to lead an organization, understand the finance behind it. That was my MBA program, right? It was so empowering to be able to know how do I negotiate all the noise of what's in higher education. There was a time when we can count the number of MBA programs in our region.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:26:44]: Now there's so plethora that you can't count it. So how do I amplify USC Upstate in such a way that our program is seen and heard among the many, many, many programs that are out there? Hence my PhD And my emphasis in service marketing, strategic service marketing at University of Alabama. So that PhD helped me to look at my institution as a regional public university and say, how do I differentiate our institution from the others? That's one of the things that led me into having a podcast and a podcast. I'm focusing exclusively on leadership. And I'm bringing them to the table, folks like CEOs from, from industry, nonprofits, educational, talking about USC Upstate. Then I have those podcast conversations transcribed and put into the business journal throughout the state of South Carolina. And so people are reading that. So I get calls from Charleston, I get calls from Columbia, I get calls from all over the state of South Carolina saying, I didn't know USC Upstate was doing that.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:27:54]: Or saying, how can I get on that podcast? I never imagined that to be those type of ancillary benefits, but I did know that I needed to get my message out. I did know that I need to amplify our voice as an institution and say, look and see what we're doing. I write monthly op-eds around education, around the changes that are taking place, around the value of education, around first-generation students every month. and the local paper, which has a far-reaching— the Post and Courier has a far-reaching regional arm. So people are beginning to see— I believe my role as a higher education leader in today's market is to not just impact my regional market and my local market, but also impact how people see us nationally and see the value of education nationally. The value of education It's so critical, and what I am so committed to as an educational leader, passionate about what I do, is that we, we do not dumb down our intellectual capacity as a country, that we don't move everything away from innovation and from research and from— even though we're not a research university, but that is, that's what gave, that is what gave us our competitive advantage, that we invite intellectual knowledge to the table wherever it comes from, globally, That's what happened in World War II. That's what happened in all— it wasn't just our intelligence that made us competitive. It was that of Jewish people, it was that of other scientists, etc., all around the globe, right? So I'm very leery when we swing too far saying technical colleges are all what we need.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:29:38]: We need to make sure people can do forklifts and have— can have a be able to drive trucks, etc., etc., knowing that within a couple years those trucks are going to be driving themselves remotely. And so we have now educated a complete workforce on driving trucks and we have displaced that workforce. Much of what probably happened in Flint and many other places in, in your region around automation, etc. So we tool people for these skills and then we develop technology that make those skills irrelevant. That's where education and higher education has to step in and make sure we are seen and say our voice is more than just that. And then we have to make sure that we don't see us ourselves as not knowing how to deal with people and culture and humanity and listening and communication. All those humanities are so critical to making us a civilization. And that's what I think graduate school— let me take it back to where we started.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:30:37]: That's where I think graduate education is so critical. is because it elevates our awakening to say, what else should we be thinking about? Who else should we become? And how do we continue to learn at a higher and higher and higher level so that we can maximize our society in the very best way possible?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:58]: Now, as you think back to your graduate education and what you've gone through in your past, and you think about others that are thinking about going to graduate school themselves, What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:31:18]: Um, there are a whole bunch of degrees just to have them. Like, I just want to be a doctor. So, um, and I caution you from absorbing a lot of debt just to be okay. Um, you know, if you need to, if you need that for your ego, then that's okay. But I think it's so much more powerful to take it and do what it was designed to do. How do we elevate the thinking of that experience? How do we elevate that space with that particular degree? So a lot of degrees, things that we used to do just to get the certification in, well, we did it because we wanted How do I make this community that I work in better with this particular graduate degree and graduate knowledge? And it happens, and it makes a difference. It causes you to think differently. It causes you to engage differently.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:32:40]: And that's what people have to understand. When you think about when you go into a graduate degree program, you're going to have peers that are in there with you who are looking for something that makes them better. not just make me a better person, but intellectually more competitive. I want to learn more. I want to increase my curiosity, which when you increase curiosity, increase learning, what that does, it innovates, creates innovation, and it makes society very better, much better. So I think graduate degrees should be looked at or could be looked at as less of a transactional credential to get you that next paycheck or next pay bump and more of one that's really, really making society better and making this environment, this organization, this job, all those things better. So whether you get your graduate degree in computer science and data analytics or whether you get your graduate degree in music, you're becoming the best at your craft and we don't want society to lose that. We do not want young people to be okay being mediocre.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:33:52]: And we want people to go through a graduate program that is developed and coached by intellectuals so that you can know what this— how to use this knowledge that you are acquiring, how to make it even more effective, how to make it smarter, those things. So it's an and. You're going to get it to continue to improve yourself professionally, get a better job, all of those, and use it to improve folks and people around you. I'm not saying go and say, I got a graduate degree, so I'm better. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that a graduate education should equip you to see things differently and to see where you can improve those things and where you can contribute, to see how you can have different type of conversations with people, to bring them together, to get that training intellectually, to have more understanding about culture and about experiences so that I can come better prepared with an empty cup to receive that, what I've learned.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:58]: Well, Dr. Harris, you mentioned just a little bit ago that you have a podcast called Below the Line, and I'm sure that that's one of the best ways for people to get a hold of you. But tell me a little bit more about, or tell us about a little bit more about Below the Line. And where people can find it if they want to learn more.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:35:16]: Well, below the line really is really what we're talking about when we, when we lead, when we make decisions. Oftentimes, and I, I coined this term, but I can't take complete ownership of it because I heard it initially from a previous president that I served under, and he was a conflict manager. He did conflict management. And so part of what we were learning is when you do fundraising, for example, and I come and ask somebody to make a commitment to this institution and they have something to say, well, yeah, I'll do that. And it's, it is, it's minuscule in comparison to their capacity. When you talk to them more, you start learning what's really below that conversation. What is really, what are they really passionate about? They could have been had pain associated. Their son got kicked out of school, at that same school that you're asking them to give money for.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:36:14]: That's keeping them from making that bigger gift. So that was the context which I kind of came to appreciate that term below the line. I added leading. How do we lead? When I come to an organization and I have this great vision and it's not moving the way I think it should move, what's going on? Well, people could have PTSD from prior relationships, from a prior chancellor, from prior experiences. So I got to get below the line so that I can get them to make these types of decisions. So the whole thing is, how do you lead when you don't know what the issues are that's keeping your team from moving forward? That's what Below the Line is all about. And you can listen to that on— it's on Spotify, it's on YouTube, just Below the Line, Chancellor Bennie Lee Harris or Bennie Harris. or Below the Line USC Upstate, and it should pop up on a number of, uh, uh, venues, whatever they call it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:09]: Well, Dr. Harris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today, for your— for you sharing your own background. And I am— I've definitely listened to a few of the episodes already in Below the Line. They're very powerful episodes, and you have some really amazing guests on there. So as you said, it What you're talking about does connect with what we're talking about here. So I highly encourage you to listen and to check it out for yourself. But Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:37]: Harris, thank you for being here, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:37:41]: Thank you very much, Kristin. I appreciate your inviting me, and I love the conversation. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Choosing to attend graduate school is a big step, and with it comes the crucial question: how do the financial realities differ between master's programs and PhD programs? In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis dives into the complexities and key considerations surrounding the true costs and funding options for these advanced degrees.

One of the main takeaways from the episode is that graduate school is far from one-size-fits-all—not only academically, but also financially. Dr. Christopher Lewis highlights how, while both paths are graduate degrees, master's and PhD programs usually come with distinct cost structures, funding models, and potential financial risks. For many, a master's degree might offer faster entry into a new career or desired promotion, but may require more out-of-pocket payment or student loans. Conversely, a funded PhD program can be more affordable in terms of direct costs (like tuition and fees) because of waivers, stipends, and assistantships, but often comes with its own opportunity costs—such as a longer period on a lower stipend instead of a full-time professional salary.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis gives actionable advice for anyone considering graduate school. He encourages listeners to compare not just the sticker price of programs, but the net price—the actual cost after factoring in scholarships, stipends, waivers, and assistantships. He explains why it's essential to ask programs for detailed, written offers outlining what funding is available and under what conditions. Calculating the debt-to-income ratio that would result from each program is another practical tip: ideally, your anticipated debt shouldn't exceed your first-year full-time salary in the field.

Other themes include the importance of researching career outcomes for each program, understanding the average debt and salaries of recent graduates, and looking closely at the adequacy of stipends—especially in expensive cities. Asking about long-term career support, job placement rates, and additional opportunities, such as conferences and internships, will ensure you make the best decision for your future.

Whether you're weighing a master's program with upfront costs or a funded PhD that requires several years of commitment, this episode is packed with strategies and questions every future grad student should consider.

Ready to make an informed decision about your graduate education? Don't miss this episode of "Victors in Grad School"—it's essential listening for anyone considering an advanced degree!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Today, we're going to be talking again about some of the financial realities of graduate programs. And I know we've been talking about this over the last few weeks, but we're going to be talking a little bit more in depth Today about some important questions that you should be thinking about, and especially how do the financial realities of master programs, master's programs, and PhD programs differ? Now, that may sound like a simple question, but it's actually one of the most important questions that you can ask when you're deciding what kind of graduate education makes sense for you. Graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all, and graduate school financing is definitely Not one size fits all. A master's degree and a PhD may both be graduate degrees, but they often come with very different cost structures, funding models, timelines, risks, and career outcomes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]: For some students, a master's degree may be the fastest and most practical way for you to be able to get to that career advancement that you want. For others, a funded PhD may be the better financial fit. Especially if you have goals that involve research, academia, or highly specialized professional work. But there isn't a universal answer. The right choice depends on your field, your career goals, your financial situation, your tolerance for debt, your existing loan history, your timeline, and your ultimate long-term plans. So today we're going to break down some of the most common differences in lending needs between master's and PhD students. I'm going to talk to you about tuition support, assistantships, stipends, loan limits, opportunity costs, private loan risks, and how to compare offers before you commit. As always, this episode is not individual financial advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: Students, students should confirm details with financial aid professionals, graduate program staff, and official federal student aid resources. But the goal today is to help you to ask better questions and to make more informed decisions. So let's get started. As I mentioned here already today, graduate school financing is not the same for every degree. As a prospective graduate student and as you are exploring graduate school, so many students are focusing on the program title, you know, the Master of Public Health, the PhD in Public Science, the PhD in Education. You know, whatever the title is, those titles matter. But they don't tell the whole financial story. 2 graduate programs can have similar career outcomes and very different costs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]: 2 programs in the same field can have very different levels of funding. A shorter program may cost more out of pocket than a longer program. A longer program may provide funding but delay full-time earnings. A prestigious program may offer a powerful network but require more borrowing. A funded program may reduce debt but require years of lower income while enrolled. That's why students need to look beyond admission and ask, what is the financial model of this program? In general, master's students and PhD students often face different financial realities. Master's students are more likely to pay tuition themselves unless they have scholarships, fellowships, employer support, or institutional aid. PhD students, especially those in funded doctoral programs, are more likely to receive tuition waivers, stipends, teaching assistantships, research assistantships, or fellowships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:03]: Of course, there are exceptions. Some master's programs offer generous funding. Some PhD programs are not fully funded. Some professional programs have high costs, but student but strong salaries upon graduation. So students should always ask their specific programs more about the situation in general. But as a general starting point, master's and PhD financing often work very differently. So let's begin with master's students. Master's programs are typically shorter than PhD programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:37]: Many full-time master's degrees take between 1 And half years and 3 years, 1.5 to 3 years to complete, depending on the field curriculum, internship requirements, clinical hours, and whether the student attends full-time or part-time. Because they're shorter, students sometimes assume that master's degrees are automatically more affordable, and sometimes they are, but not always. Many master's students pay tuition unless they receive institutional scholarships, fellowships, employer tuition assistance, or other support. And in many fields, master's students are less likely than PhD students to receive full tuition waivers or paid teaching and research assistantships. That means master's programs can require significant borrowing, even though it's shorter. Depending on the institution and the program, annual costs of a self-funded master's student can range anywhere from $20,000 to $80,000 or more, And that can include tuition, fees, books, supplies, housing, transportation, health insurance, and living expenses. Now, a master's degree can still be a very strong investment. It can lead to promotion, a licensure pathway, a career change, a salary increase, or entry into a profession that requires the credential.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:01]: But students need to understand the net cost, not just the sticker price. Not just the first semester bill, the cost to complete the degree. This is essentially— this is especially important as changes in federal lending may affect borrowing options for graduate students. With the elimination of Grad PLUS loans for new borrowers and the introduction of new federal borrowing caps, some students may find that federal loans don't cover the full cost of the higher-cost master's degree, and that can create a gap. And that gap may need to be covered through scholarships, employer benefits, savings, income payment plans, or private loans. So before enrolling in a master's program, students really need to be asking, what's the full cost of completing the degree? How much institutional aid is available for master's students? Are Are scholarships renewable or are they only for the first year? Are assistantships offered to master's students? Are paid internships, practicums, or graduate employment opportunities available? Will federal loans cover the cost of attendance? And if federal loans aren't enough, what other options are available? All of these questions help students understand whether the program is financially feasible and whether the expected outcome— Justifies the investment. So that's master's students. Now let's talk about PhD students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:33]: Doctoral programs, especially research-based PhD programs, often operate under a different financial model. Many funded PhD programs provide tuition waivers, stipends, teaching assistantships, research assistantships, or fellowships in these programs that allow for students to pay little or no tuition directly. They may also receive an annual stipend, which helps to cover living expenses. For students in funded doctoral programs, the typical annual cost to the student may be relatively low. In some cases, after accounting for stipend support, students may pay between $0 and $5,000 a year out of pocket, depending on local cost of living— Depending on local cost of living and personal expenses. That can make a funded PhD financially attractive compared with a self-funded master's program, but there's another side of the equation. PhD programs are long. A full-time PhD may take 4 to 7 years, depending on the discipline, research progress, dissertation requirements, advising, funding, and program structure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: So while a funded PhD may reduce the overall debt that a student has to take out for tuition, It may also— it may also mean spending more years on a graduate stipend rather than earning a full-time professional salary, and that creates what we call opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is the value of what you give up when you choose one path over another. For PhD students, that may include several years of full-time salary, employer retirement contributions, professional advancement, and other benefits that might have come from entering or staying in the workplace. That doesn't mean that a PhD is a bad choice. For many students, a PhD is exactly the right choice. It may be essential for their research, their goals, academic careers, scientific training, or specialized professional aspirations. But students should also consider the full picture. Prospective PhD students really need to be asking, is the degree funding guaranteed? And if it is, how many years is it guaranteed for? Does it include tuition, fees, health insurance, a stipend? Is summer funding included? What work obligations are attached to the funding? Will you as a student be expected to teach or conduct research? Can the stipend be negotiated? Are there additional fellowship opportunities? And what happens if you need more time to finish? A funded PhD can reduce borrowing, but students still need to evaluate stipend adequacy, time-to-degree completion rates, and long-term career outcomes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:18]: So now that you've learned a little bit about both the master's and the PhD, let's compare these 2 paths a little bit more directly. A funded PhD and a self-funded master's program may lead to related careers, but the financial experience can look very different. For a funded PhD, the annual cost to the student may be— the annual cost to you may be low, especially if tuition is waived and a stipend is provided. Federal loan need may be low as well. The risk of reaching Federal lifetime borrowing caps may also be lower, especially if you enter the program with little or no federal debt. Private loan risk is at— is usually lower for funded PhD programs because tuition is often covered and borrowing may be limited due to living expenses or personal needs. A self-funded master's program can look very different. Annual costs may range from $20,000 to $80,000 or more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: While federal loan need may be high depending on the total program cost and the student's existing debt, there may be greater risk of reaching federal borrowing limits. And if federal loans don't cover the full cost, the student may need to consider private loans. That doesn't mean that a fully funded PhD is always the better financial choice. The master's program may take only 2 years and may lead to faster entry into the workforce. If the degree leads to strong salary growth, a promotion, or access to a high-demand field, it may produce strong returns despite the higher upfront cost. The PhD may take longer, which may delay full-time earnings, but if the student's goal requires doctoral training, or if this PhD leads to academic research or leadership roles that would otherwise be inaccessible, it may be the right investment. Ultimately, the point is that you cannot compare graduate programs by tuition alone. You have to compare cost, funding, time, debt, opportunity cost, completion likelihood, career outcome, and long-term fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:20]: So How should you evaluate these options? My first recommendation is simple: request funding offers in writing before committing. A written funding offer should clearly state what the program is offering and what conditions apply. Students often look for details such as tuition support, fees covered and not covered, stipend amounts, health insurance, duration of funding, renewal requirements, teaching, research, or service expectations, summer support, and what happens if you take longer than expected to complete the program. This is especially important for PhD students, but it also matters for master's students who receive scholarships, fellowships, or assistantships. So in the end, the key message is don't rely only on verbal assurances. Graduate school is too significant a commitment for vague funding details. Get the offer in writing, read it carefully, Ask questions, and keep a copy for your records. My second recommendation is to compare net price, not sticker price.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: Sticker price is the published cost. Net price is what you actually pay after grants, scholarships, fellowships, tuition waivers, assistantships, employer contributions, or any other type of gift aid that you receive. The distinction matters a lot. A private university with a high tuition rate may become more affordable if it provides generous scholarships. A public university may appear less expensive, but still require significant borrowing if aid is limited. A PhD program may list a high tuition rate, but if the tuition is fully waived, as a student, your actual cost may be much lower. So when you're comparing programs, you need to ask each program some of the following. You need to find out the total cost of attendance, the total grants and scholarships that are available, the total tuition waiver or assistance support that's available, the total out-of-cost expenses, the total expected borrowing, and the total expected debt at graduation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:23]: If you compare only tuition, you may make the wrong decision. Compare net price. That's the number that matters. My third recommendation is to calculate your expected debt-to-income ratio at graduation. A general guideline is that your Total graduate debt should not exceed your expected first-year salary in your chosen field. Now, it's not a perfect science or a rule. There are exceptions. Some fields have low starting salaries but strong growth.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:52]: Some students qualify for loan forgiveness. Some students have family support or savings. Some programs lead to careers with high long-term earnings. But as a starting point, this guideline can help you evaluate whether your debt will be manageable. For example, if you expect to earn $60,000 in your first year after graduation, taking on $60,000 in debt may be manageable depending on repayment options and living costs. Taking on $150,000 in debt for that same salary may create much more financial pressure. So in the end, you need to ask, what's the average debt level for graduates from the program? What are typical starting salaries? What do graduates earn after after 5 or 10 years? How quickly do graduates typically repay their loans? Are graduates entering public service fields that may qualify for public service loan forgiveness? Are salaries in the field stable or growing or highly variable? The goal is not to reduce the number of graduates in a graduate program based on a salary number. Graduate education can have intellectual, personal, and social value as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: But debt has to be repaid. So it is important to understand how expected earnings and expected debt fit together. My fourth recommendation is to look for programs that provide clear and transparent career outcomes. Before enrollment, you need to be asking what percentage of graduates are employed within 6 months or a year? What percentage of— are working in their intended field? Where do graduates typically work? What job titles do recent graduates hold? What percentage continue to doctoral or professional study? What are typical salaries? What internships Internships, practicums, research opportunities, or networking opportunities are available? And how does the program support career development? All of these questions and more are ones that are going to be really important because if a program cannot provide employment data, salary ranges, alumni examples, or career support, then you're going to need to make sure that you continue to ask more questions to get more answers if they don't have others that can answer that for you. My 5th and final recommendation is specifically for PhD students. Ask detailed questions about the stipend. A tuition waiver is important, but students still have to live. Rent, food, transportation, healthcare, professional conference travel, technology, books, childcare, and personal expenses all matter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:25]: A stipend that looks reasonable in one city may be very difficult to live on in another. So prospective PhD students should definitely be asking, what's the annual stipend? Is it guaranteed? Is it paid over 9 months or 12 months? Is summer funding available? And are fees covered? Is health insurance included? Are students allowed to work outside the program? Does the department provide conference or research travel support? How does the stipend compare with living cost expenses? Are there internal or external fellowships students commonly receive? And can the stipend be negotiated? The last question may feel uncomfortable, but it's worth asking respectfully, especially if you have competing offers. Even a modest stipend increase can make a meaningful difference over 4, 5, 6, or 7 years. A fully funded PhD is only truly sustainable if students can meet their basic living needs while making academic progress. So in closing today, master's programs and PhD programs can both be excellent investments, but they're often very different investments. Master's programs are usually shorter and may lead to a faster career advancement, but they may require more out-of-pocket tuition, and more borrowing. PhD programs are often longer and may delay full-time earnings, but funded programs may provide tuition waivers, stipends, or even lower debt. Neither option is automatically better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:53]: The right choice depends on your goals, your field, your finances, your borrowing history, your timeline, and your comfort with risk. Before you commit, request written funding detail, compare the net price, estimate your debt to income ratio, review career outcomes, ask about completion rates, consider opportunity cost, and be honest with yourself and with what you need from the degree. Graduate school can be a powerful step forward, but the goal is not simply to get admitted. The goal is to choose a program that you can complete, afford, and use to move confidently toward your future. That's all for today's episode of Victors in Grad School. Thanks for listening. Keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and Keep moving toward your future. The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time Thank you for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering pursuing graduate school on a part-time basis, or are you already balancing your studies with work, family, or other responsibilities? This week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, delivers a can't-miss financial primer for anyone navigating the evolving world of graduate student loans and part-time enrollment.

In this informative episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis tackles a subject that's often overlooked: how recent changes to federal student lending will impact part-time graduate students. With the flexibility that part-time programs offer—allowing students to maintain employment, care for loved ones, and juggle personal commitments—it's no wonder more learners are considering this path. But, as Dr. Christopher Lewis points out, the new lending rules require careful, proactive planning to ensure your academic goals remain within reach.

Key Themes from the Episode:

1. Loan Proration and Enrollment Intensity: Dr. Christopher Lewis clearly explains the concept of loan proration—the idea that if you're enrolled less than full-time, your federal student loan eligibility is adjusted downward, sometimes significantly. He stresses the importance of understanding your institution's definition of full-time, as it directly affects your financial aid.

2. Strategic Financial Planning: Part-time study can still be possible, but Dr. Christopher Lewis encourages listeners to ask detailed questions about how their course load will affect both their tuition bills and their borrowing eligibility. Gaps in funding might need to be filled with personal savings, employer tuition assistance, scholarships, or payment plans.

3. Employer Tuition Assistance & Program Comparison: One actionable tip is to leverage employer-sponsored tuition reimbursement, which can contribute significantly to covering costs over multiple years. He also urges students to compare the long-term costs and benefits of part-time versus full-time enrollment, including time-to-degree and access to career advancements.

4. Proactive Questioning & Planning: Dr. Christopher Lewis empowers students to treat their course schedule as a key part of their financial plan and not just an academic decision. By planning ahead and understanding all policies, students can minimize surprises and maximize their investment in education.

If you're a current or prospective part-time graduate student—or support someone who is—this episode is packed with practical advice and critical insights. Don't miss out on this expert financial guidance tailored for part-time learners. Tune in to the full conversation on "Victors in Grad School" today, and set yourself up for success in your grad school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And this week, I'm going to be talking to you again, and we're going to be talking more about finances, about things that are going to be important as you're making those decisions for your future. Today, we're going to be continuing to talk about the things that you should know and that you should focus on, that you should focus on, especially if you are part of a group of graduate students who are incredibly common, incredibly motivated, and sometimes overlooked in conversations about graduate school financing. So today we're going to be talking specifically about being a part-time graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: For many students, part-time graduate study is not just a preference, it's what makes graduate school possible. Part-time enrollment allows students to keep working, care for children or family members, maintain health insurance through an employer, manage financial responsibilities, and pursue a degree without stepping away completely from their personal or professional lives. For working professionals, especially part-time graduate programs can be practical and powerful paths forward. But upcoming changes— But the new changes in federal student lending could affect how you as a part-time student finance your degree? Because you see that under the new federal lending rules, students who enroll less than full-time are going to have to have their annual federal loan eligibility reduced based on their enrollment level. So in plain language, what does that mean? It means that if you take fewer courses, that may also mean that you're going to be able to borrow less in federal loans. So that doesn't mean that part-time graduate school is no longer possible. It absolutely can be. But it does mean that for those students that are going to go part-time, you need to plan carefully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: You have to ask direct questions and understand how your course load affects your financial aid. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about loan pro— what loan proration means, how enrollment intensity works, why this matters, for part-time students and what strategies that part-time students can use to make part-time graduate education even more affordable. So let's jump in. So more and more students today are starting to look at graduate school through a part-time lens. Part-time graduate education plays an important part in expanding access to advanced degrees. Not every student can work full— can stop working and attend school full-time. Not every student can relocate, take on unpaid internships, or pause family responsibilities. Many graduate students are already professionals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:00]: They may be teachers, nurses, engineers, social workers, managers, public servants, nonprofit leaders, parents, caregivers, veterans, entrepreneurs. The list goes on and on. For these students, part-time enrollment can be the bridge between where they are now and where they want to go next. Part-time graduate program can allow students to apply what they are learning immediately into the workplace. It can reduce the need to leave a job. It can help students continue earning income while pursuing a credential. And it can also make graduate education feel more manageable when life is already full. And let's be honest, for many graduate students, life is very full.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: But part-time enrollment also changes the financial picture. Students may take longer to finish. They may pay fees, across many semesters. They may have different eligibility for scholarships, assistantships, or loans. And under the new federal lending rules, they now are going to have reduced federal loan eligibility if they're enrolled less than full-time. So part-time study can be a smart choice, but it needs to be a well-planned choice. So the key change that we're talking about right now is called loan proration. Under the new federal lending environment, annual federal loan limits for students enrolled less than full-time must be prorated based on the student's enrollment level related to the institution's definition of full-time enrollment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:29]: Now, that's a lot of language, so let's break it down. Proration basically means that your loan eligibility is adjusted proportionally. If you're enrolled at 100% of a full-time course load, you may be eligible for the full annual loan amount available under the rules of your program. But if you're enrolled at 50% of the full-time course load, your annual federal loan eligibility may be reduced to 50% of the annual loan limit. So for example, if a program defines full-time enrollment as 24 credit hours per year and a student enrolls in 12 credit hours per year, that student is enrolled at 50% intensity. Under loan proration, that student may be eligible for only 50% of the annual federal loan limit. Now, this matters because many students choose part-time enrollment specifically to make graduate school more manageable. But if a loan eligibility decreases along with enrollment, students may find that federal loans no longer cover the full cost of tuition and fees, even if they're taking fewer classes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:35]: That's the key point here. A lower course load may reduce your bill, but it may also reduce your borrowing eligibility. And as a student, you need to look at both sides of that equation. So I mentioned enrollment intensity. To better understand loan proration, students need to also understand enrollment intensity. Enrollment intensity refers to the number of credit hours a student takes during an academic term or an academic year compared with the number of credits the institution considers full-time. In many programs, enrollment categories look something like full-time, meaning 12 or more credit hours per semester, whereas half-time means 6 to 11 credit hours per semester. Less than half-time may mean fewer than 6 credit hours per semester.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: But graduate programs can vary. Some graduate programs define full-time status differently. Some use academic year totals. Some use clinical hours, internship hours, practicum hours, or even research credits. Some graduate programs have very specific rules based on accreditation, program structure, or even institutional policy. That means that students cannot guess. If you're considering part-time enrollment, you need to ask your program and financial aid offices directly. You need to ask them, how does this program define full-time enrollment? How many credits are considered half-time? How many credits will I take each semester or academic year? What will my enrollment intensity be? How will my enrollment intensity affect my federal loan eligibility? And will reducing my course load create a funding gap? These questions are especially important for students who are planning around work schedules, family responsibilities, employer tuition reimbursement, or personal budgets.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:26]: The more precisely that you understand your enrollment intensity, the more accurately you can plan. So as you think about all of this, why does this matter? Well, at first glance, part-time enrollment may seem less expensive, and in some ways it is. If you take fewer classes in a semester, your tuition bill for that semester may be lower. That can help students— that can help you to manage your cash flow, keep working, or avoid taking on too much at once. But the financial picture is more complicated. If your federal loan eligibility is prorated based on your enrollment intensity, then taking fewer credits may also reduce the amount that you can borrow. This may create an ultimate gap between the costs of your program and the available federal aid. And that gap might have to be covered by your current income, savings, employer tuition assistance, scholarships, institutional grants, payment plans, family support, or even private loans.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: And the thing to keep in mind here is that each of those options have different implications. So as a part-time student, you have to think about the total time to degree. The part— a part-time program may have— may take 3, 4, or even more years to complete depending on the program. So additional semesters may mean additional fees, continued transportation costs, continued technology costs, and a longer period before you realize the career benefits of the degree. Again, that does not mean that part-time enrollment is a bad choice, For many students, it's exactly the right choice, but it does mean that you need to understand the full cost of the path that you are choosing, not just the cost of one semester. So one of the most important strategies that you as a part-time student should explore is employer tuition assistance. If you're working while pursuing a graduate degree, your employer may offer tuition reimbursement, tuition assistance, professional development funds, or educational benefits. And under Section 127 of the federal tax law, employers may provide up to $5,250 each year in tax-free educational assistance to eligible employees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]: That can make a meaningful difference, especially for part-time students spreading a degree across multiple years. So if you are employed, you need to start by asking your human resources office or supervisor if your organization offers. tuition reimbursement or tuition assistance and whether or not you are eligible for the benefit. By understanding that and understanding how that benefit works and how it is paid out and whether or not there are other, I'm going to say, strings attached to the use of the funds, all of those things are going to be things that you're going to need to look into. And it's definitely worth asking, even if you think that you've already— you already know the answer. Employer policies change and some organizations have benefits that employers simply do not even know about. And here's the important— here is an important planning point. If your employer offers that $5,250 per year that I mentioned, and your program is 3 years long, that could represent more than $15,000 of support over the course of the degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:46]: That's real money, very real, the kind of real money that demonstrates— that deserves a spreadsheet and maybe even a celebratory coffee. Another strategy to consider is to compare part-time and full-time enrollment options. Sometimes students assume that part-time is automatically more affordable because the semester bill is lower, but depending on loan eligibility, scholarships, assistantships, fees, time to degree, and career outcomes, that may not always be true. In some cases, a faster full-time program may be financially better because it allows you to complete the degree sooner, and access career advancement or higher earnings earlier. In other cases, part-time enrollment may be the better option because it allows you to keep earning income, maintaining benefits, and use employer tuition assistance. The point is not that one path is always better. The point is that as a student, you have to be able to compare the options. So in this type of scenario, you need to ask your program and better understand What the total cost of completing the degree is going to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: And what is the total cost in completing it as a part-time student? What is the total cost of completing it as a full-time student? And how long do full-time students take to complete? How long do part-time students take to complete? Are there assistantships or scholarships that are offered to part-time students versus full-time students? All of these different questions are going to help you to make a better decision that can be built off of solid information and not assumptions. A 3rd strategy to consider is to look at tuition payment plans. If reduced loan eligibility creates a gap, a payment plan may allow you to spread your balance over several months instead of paying one large amount at the beginning of a term. This can be especially helpful for working students who plan to use income Or employer reimbursement to cover part of the cost. A payment plan does not— doesn't reduce the cost of the degree, but it can make— it can allow for you to make payments more manageable and may reduce the need to borrow. So if you go and you ask the Student Accounts Office more about payment plans that are available, you can find out more about what they look like, how many payments are allowed over a semester, are there enrollment fees, are there service charges or interest fees? Do you take advantage of that? Can they be used alongside with financial aid? Can employer reimbursement be coordinated with a payment schedule? For students that are trying to avoid private loans, a payment plan can sometimes be an important piece of the puzzle. A 4th idea would be if you're still an undergraduate student and you're already thinking about graduate school, you should be thinking about what could come next. You could ask your institution whether your institution offers accelerated master's degree programs, combined bachelor's or master's programs or opportunities to count undergraduate coursework toward graduate credit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Those type of pathways can sometimes reduce the number of credits needed for not only the bachelor's degree, but also lower the number of credits that you need for a master's degree. You know, for example, some programs allow qualified undergraduates to begin graduate coursework during their senior year, and others allow certain courses to count both toward a bachelor's and a master's degree. And if available, these options can shorten the path to a graduate credential. So at your institution, you need to ask the right questions. You need to ask, are accelerated graduate pathways available? What programs are they available in? Are undergraduate courses counted toward graduate degrees? Can you start those graduate courses in your undergraduate degree? And I always encourage students to plan early and to ask those questions upfront. So if you're early on in a bachelor's degree, Ask those questions now and find out what you need to be taking to prepare yourself to be able to be eligible just for that. A final strategy to consider is that if you are planning to be a part-time student, you may want to think about adjusting your course load from term to term because ultimately life happens. Work demands increase, family responsibilities shift, health needs arise.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: Sometimes reducing your course load is the right decision. But under loan proration rules, reducing your course load may also reduce your loan eligibility. And that means course load changes should be treated as financial decisions as well as academic decisions. Before dropping from full-time to part-time or half-time to less than half-time, you really need to ask yourself some good questions, such as, how will this decision affect my federal loan eligibility? Will I still qualify for institutional aid? Will it affect scholarships, fellowships, or assistantships? Will it change my health insurance eligibility? Will it affect my housing, my visa status, or other benefits? Will it extend my time to degree? Will it increase my total cost? And can I cover any new funding gap that may occur because of this? Sometimes reducing credits is necessary, but it should only be done with a full understanding of the consequences. In the end, you need to think about it this way: course load It's not just an academic schedule, it's part of your financial plan. So in the end, part-time graduate education still remains to be an important and valuable pathway. For working adults, caregivers, and students balancing multiple responsibilities, part-time enrollment can make an advanced degree possible. But under the new federal lending rules, you need to understand how enrollment intensity affects your loan eligibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: Taking fewer credits may lower your immediate tuition bill, but it may also reduce the federal loans available to you. And that means planning early is essential. Before enrolling in any program, make sure that you understand your program's definition of full-time status, calculate your enrollment intensity, estimate your federal loan eligibility, identify any funding gaps, and then explore employer benefits, scholarships, payment plans, accelerated options, and other sources of support. Graduate school is a major investment, but with the right information, part-time students can make that investment wisely. And remember, asking financial questions is not a sign that you're unsure. It's a sign that you're prepared. That's all for today's episode of Victors in Grad School. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: Keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and keep moving toward your goals. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If You are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].