Victors in Grad School

Navigating graduate school is a rewarding but often challenging journey, filled with competing demands on your time, energy, and emotional wellness. In the episode "Finding Support and Setting Boundaries" from the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis is joined by Reilly Chabie, a counselor and outreach coordinator with Counseling and Psychological Services at the University of Michigan Flint, to break down what it truly means to find balance and set effective boundaries as a grad student.

Reilly Chabie brings her expertise and a compassionate approach to guide listeners through understanding the unique pressures faced during graduate studies. She introduces the concept of the 8 dimensions of wellness – a holistic framework that includes emotional, physical, financial, environmental, spiritual, and other domains – and emphasizes how each area shifts in importance depending on one's priorities. When one area falters, others can quickly follow, making self-awareness and attentiveness to balance absolutely vital.

A central theme in this episode is the reality of imbalance and burnout. Reilly Chabie normalizes these experiences, discussing how burnout can affect not only our physical health but also our mental clarity, motivation, and relationships. She reminds us that recognizing the signs of burnout early is crucial to resetting and rediscovering a sustainable equilibrium.

The heart of Reilly Chabie's message is actionable: cultivate self-compassion and understand that balance is not a one-size-fits-all process. She encourages listeners to use self-checks to measure where their balance lies and adapt accordingly. Through tools like the 5-4-3-2-1 grounding method and the practice of radical acceptance, students can regain presence and reduce overwhelm.

Setting boundaries, a pivotal skill discussed in detail, is positioned as an act of kindness both to oneself and to those around us. Reilly Chabie walks through practical steps: define your personal limits, communicate them clearly, and reinforce them consistently—whether with friends, professors, or even yourself. The message is empowering: it's OK to say no, and even more, it's necessary for long-term success and well-being.

If you're embarking on or searching for ways to thrive in graduate school, this episode is packed with expert advice, relatable stories, and practical tools. Tune in to hear how Dr. Christopher Lewis and Reilly Chabie tackle common struggles and provide resources and reassurance to help you maintain your balance (and sanity!) throughout your academic journey.

Ready to reclaim your grad school experience? Listen now to "Finding Support and Setting Boundaries" on Victors in Grad School.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome everyone. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. I am so excited to welcome you and to— I'm so excited for you to start your graduate school journey. Today we've got a really important topic, and I know I say that every time, but it is true. This is another really important topic. Today we have a new friend with us that is going to be talking about another important topic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:37]: Reilly Chaby is with us, and Reilly is talking about the importance of finding support and setting boundaries. Where is that limit for yourself and being able to set those limits for you and for other people that know you? Because it's not just you. You have to be able to set the limits to be able to set those parameters for yourself to be able to be successful in graduate school. And Reilly's going to be talking to you about that. So I'm really excited to have her here. I'm gonna turn it over to her. Reilly, thanks so much for being here.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:05]: Welcome in. I am grateful to be here. Thank you for the introduction, Dr. Lewis. As he mentioned, my name is Reilly Chaby. I am one of the CAPS counselors and the outreach coordinator for Counseling and Psychological Services. And as mentioned, I'm here to talk to you today about really finding that balance as you are a grad student here at U of M Flint, because we have a lot going on in our personal lives, in our work lives, in our school lives. So we're gonna talk a little bit about what to consider, how to notice when you feel out of balance in certain aspects, although I'm sure we already do to some respect.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:39]: And I'm going to give you some tips and ideas on how you can kind of maintain that balance while you're here pursuing your degree. What I'm going to be talking to you about applies to all of our experiences. And the unique part about this is that we're going to talk about that individual experience, right? So I appreciate you interacting and kind of telling me a little bit about where you're at. And I'm hoping that Any part of this conversation today will be applicable to your experience. So quickly, I'm just going to kind of go over some of the things that we're going to talk about. So first and foremost, I'm going to do a little bit of an introduction on the 8 dimensions of wellness. This is a huge factor in U of M Flint's focus on health and utilize the 8 dimensions of wellness to really create and supplement the outreach events that we have and the things that are there for your use as you are part of this process. So I'm going to talk a little bit about that and how that applies to balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:02:34]: We're going to talk about balance itself. What does that mean? What does it feel like to be unbalanced? Those types of things. And then we're going to talk a little bit about those tips and tricks as well. We're also going to shift into a particular type of approach that can really help in maintaining balance, and that's going to focus on boundaries. So what are boundaries, examples of boundaries, and tips on how we want to engage with those. And then in summary, we'll talk about just some general last thoughts, some resources on campus, and a couple of things that CAPS has going on that you might want to partake in as you start your journey here at U of M Flint. So getting started on the 8 dimensions of wellness, as you can see here, this is a very excellent depiction of the different areas that we can kind of break our wellness down into, right? So we have our emotional wellness, physical wellness, financial wellness. We're even considering environmental wellness, right? Spiritual wellness.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:33]: And all of these different parts of the puzzle or slices of the pie, if you will, impact us differently depending on what area we feel like we want to move toward, or I guess better be better acquainted with, right? So for example, I might focus heavily on my emotional wellness, right? And that kind of makes sense as a clinician, I might be focused pretty heavily on that. But for some of you folks that are focused on starting your program you might focus on maybe your intellectual wellness, right? Maybe it's your financial wellness. We all kind of prioritize these different pieces in different ways. But what's really core to the 8 dimensions of wellness is that all of these parts serve the whole person. And what we tend to notice is that when one area of the dimensions of wellness is faltering or we're struggling to kind of maintain some consistency with it, we notice that other areas start to kind of stress and ultimately suffer as we try to navigate some of the other areas. Now, it's gonna be normal for our approach to focus in one area over the other, prioritize one area over the other, just depending on the situations that we have in life. But what's really kind of critical is we wanna be mindful of when we're giving too much attention in one place and how that ultimately is affecting the other areas of our wellness. Ultimately, as we kind of look through the rest of our conversation, you might, in the back of your head, start to think about, oh, as I'm, let's say, in October of my program, I'm realizing that my physical health and my wellness there is not doing it.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:23]: I'm really struggling with this and I have had a hard time taking care of that, which ultimately might lead to challenges in, let's say, your intellectual or environmental health, depending on what we prioritize and what we need to focus on. So keep that in mind and kind of think about this wheel a little bit as we go through the rest of our, our conversation, simply because we want to make sure that you know what areas you want to focus on, and that will likely help you consider what resources on campus you'll likely want access to, or at least keep in mind as you keep moving forward. So Let's consider balance. As I mentioned, we talked a little bit about how those 8 dimensions of wellness, if we're paying attention to them and kind of engaging in them and moving toward them in some way, we're typically creating some sort of balance in the process. However, balance shifts. It can kind of go up and down. It just depends on what the situation is. But I want to take a second and I want you to think about The types of responsibilities and roles that you have in your life.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:33]: Now, I'll point out a couple of basic ones. You're going to be a student. You're likely a friend. Maybe you're a significant other. Maybe you're an employee. There's lots of different roles that we take on. I don't know if other people have thoughts on their roles. I always like to mention that I'm a dog parent or I'm a cat parent.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:52]: I can insert other various roles that are unique to my experience that I am regularly engaging in. That I regularly pay attention to and I try to prioritize. But if we take that into this context, all of those different roles require a certain amount of energy and focus and dedication, all of the responsibilities that fall underneath that. So as a dog parent, I'm likely, I gotta remember to buy food, I gotta feed him, I gotta walk him, I gotta do all of those things. So the role itself is just an umbrella concept, and then we have to lay out all of those different types of responsibilities. You might be thinking then, okay, so if I have all of those things that I am responsible for, I'm likely going to start to feel out of balance if I feel like certain responsibilities are kind of taking control over other responsibilities. So because we have all of these different roles going on, we might experience that imbalance. I am curious, and feel free to answer in the chat, but why do we think personally it's hard to manage and balance all of these different roles and responsibilities, even if we've been doing it for a really long time? What types of things might impact that? The responsibilities never stop, so we never feel like we're getting a break.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:17]: We're feeling like there are certain things outside of our control that we can't really control, right? So that can ultimately impact that time. Absolutely. As a grad student myself, I remember I almost had zero time to do anything other than school half the time. Energy levels, absolutely. All of those things are going to be fluctuating as we take on these different responsibilities and as we try to adjust to this new role in our program. Some other things we might notice in terms of what we are struggling with in terms of balance is perhaps, but some of the things that we might experience might be that one of those roles or responsibilities are expecting too much, right? There is too much of a demand. There is too much of that that I need to take care of. Another thing we might notice, which definitely aligns with the imposter syndrome experience, is we set unrealistic expectations for ourselves in trying to balance these things or trying to take on these additional roles.

Reilly Chabie [00:09:16]: That could come from a variety of different ways, but as grad students, you might have this expectation that You are being held to this higher standard. There is more to be expected of you. And while to some degree academically that might be true in the sense that your program is specialized or is going to focus more in depth than maybe some of your undergraduate experience, we too ultimately set too high of an expectation that we are going to meet all of our demands all of the time, 100% of the time. But unfortunately, what that leads to is we are thinking that we are striving for perfection here. And there's that age-old saying, nothing can really ever reach a perfect space, right? Nothing is perfect. But we can think about what perfect actually means to us and how that relates back to our balance. So take in mind some of these things about balance because it'll be helpful in trying to maybe gauge how we want to approach rebalancing our life and making sure that we're able to meet the demands of what we're experiencing, but also knowing when it's too much, right? Or also knowing when we have to manage our expectations to be able to fit in what is most important to us. So now that we've considered some of the potential ways in which our balance can be impacted, or the specific aspects in which we're trying to look at when we think of balance, I think it's also helpful to kind of discuss what specifically we're experiencing or feeling as imbalance occurs.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:01]: And I'm sure many of you have heard the word before, but burnout tends to be our biggest worry when we think about imbalance, right? That if we are really engaging in one area, we might feel burnt out to the point where we can't engage in other areas. Some of you mentioned energy, right? Burnout does impact our energy levels. It impacts so many different aspects. And I think it's helpful to, while this slide doesn't really give you an exhaustive list, it's helpful to kind of look at some of the ways in which burnout shows up for you. So for example, physically, burnout might show up as high blood pressure. We might get recurring headaches. We might struggle to fall asleep, stay asleep, or even get up sometimes. Stomachaches are very common.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:52]: They say that There's an emotional center in our stomachs, which is why a lot of people tend to have GI issues when they're anxious or worried or concerned about things. You might also recognize that with increased stress comes a decrease in immune function, so we might actually be getting sick more frequently. And I'm not necessarily talking about if you have a chronic condition, but if you're generally otherwise pretty healthy, you might experience more colds or be susceptible to other types of illnesses. So it can definitely impact our physical process here. It also is going to impact our mental and emotional experiences. Once again, not an exhaustive list, but if we are experiencing burnout, we are likely going to experience some concentration difficulties. So that might be on your homework, that might be on certain work aspects if you are working during the same time as your degree, could be in various other roles. We might forget things more regularly.

Reilly Chabie [00:12:53]: We're going to notice maybe low mood where we're just generally feeling down, generally just kind of feeling disconnected. We might notice a loss of interest in some of your favorite things or things that typically have brought you joy. We might feel like we're falling behind, even if we're technically right on par. Sometimes we just have that feeling that we should catch up or should be doing more. And a lot of the time when we're experiencing burnout, all of these symptoms and concerns lead to this sense of feeling stuck. I personally, when I'm experiencing burnout, I tend to feel like very run down. I get headaches pretty regularly. I'm very tired.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:32]: A lot of those things start to come up. And I also tend to isolate from people, right? I don't feel like I have that energy to engage or the energy to show up in ways that are meaningful to me or to those around me. And that likely is due to that burnout and that feeling of overwhelm that I have too much going on at any given point. So once again, these signs are helpful to consider because one, you may have already experienced them, which is a good indication that we've experienced burnout. But when you start to notice these pop up either more intensely, more frequently, maybe out of characteristically, where like maybe every once in a while you get a headache, but like all of a sudden you're getting them so often that you're very confused because you're drinking water, eating well, doing all of those regular things. When those things start to happen, that's a good indicator to us that we've maybe lost balance in some way, and we can start working on some of these tips to kind of regain that balance in an aspect that feels tangible and approachable in the moment. All right. So now that we kind of have a better understanding of what balance is, you know, what might be contributing to our imbalance, and just kind of some ideas as to how we consider this balance in our own context, I do want to talk a little bit about What are some of those tips and tricks on getting toward balance? And some kind of basic things to be mindful of in this process is that achieving balance is a, is a very kind of like incremental step process.

Reilly Chabie [00:15:09]: It's never going to be linear in the, in the way we feel that if we do step 1, it leads to step 2, but rather if we take one step in one direction, that means we're closer to taking another step at some point. Mm-hmm. And I think phrasing it in this way suggests that sometimes balance— we can stay consistent for long enough before we, let's say for example, improve upon an area of wellness. And that consistency helps us feel stable, supported, and gives that kind of foundational core to our experience, something that we can always rely on. And every once in a while, we take those bigger steps to more solidify our connection to our wellness and to the things that we care about. Care about in the moment. In that same mindset, balance can often be viewed as a continuum that we're kind of ebbing and flowing through that balance space. Sometimes I like to think of the balance continuum as 1 being like, I'm a complete disaster, I have no idea what's going on, to 10 being, for lack of a better term, perfectly balanced.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:18]: And perfectly balanced is just whatever I deem to be balanced in that moment. Am I not feeling those signs of burnout? Do I feel like I'm able to keep my energy up? Am I able to feel connected to the people that I'm with? The things that I value in that process. So every once in a while, it might be helpful to kind of check your balance continuum, kind of see where you lie in that 1 to 10 scale, if that's helpful. But even more so, when we think about the continuum, balance is going to look different for everybody. Therefore, your approach is going to be different. That one thing isn't necessarily going to work for me as it does for you, and that's okay. Ultimately, we're just kind of trying to find that concoction that leads us to the appropriate level of balance that we need. So ultimately, why is balance even realistically important? Well, first of all, it's going to improve our mood.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:16]: So if we feel like all of our kind of dimensions of wellness are taken care of and we feel relatively balanced, then we We're going to notice the pleasure in things. We're going to feel focused. We're going to feel like we're achieving what we want to achieve. We're also going to notice a higher and better quality in our relationships. So going back to that part about our roles that we hold, we might feel better about our role as a student. We might feel better satisfaction from our relationships with our significant other, our friends, our coworkers, wherever it might be at, because we're able to focus on that dimension of our wellness. And I think that's a really important point. We're also likely to just have a better enjoyment of life itself.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:00]: I can't tell you how many times that during grad school it was pretty complicated to feel like everything was enjoyable around me. Like, I won't lie, we have those emotions all the time, right, where things are stressful, things are kind of getting to us. But the more we actively keep in check our balance to the best of our ability, the more likely it is that we're going to experience that enjoyment for longer periods of time, even outside of the times when we know we just cannot in the moment. That is okay. But this is why balance is key in our process as a grad student, because we respect and understand the difficulties that might come around, but we are not stuck in that difficulty if and when we do not want to be. We can access those resources and engage in ways to help us get to that balance. As we shift into kind of the tips for balance, right? Once again, I talked a little bit about the uniqueness of balance, right? That we're looking at different ways across the board that might work for you but won't work for another person in today's conversation. And ultimately, it's okay to test out as many of these as you would like, consider as many of them as you would like, and notice what works in times of high stress or what works when you're just kind of hanging out but you're noticing some of that imbalance.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:20]: So feel free to kind of consider some of these things, but add what feels appropriate to you. So first and foremost, as we talk about tips for balance, I want to address a concept called self-compassion. And self-compassion is a term coined by Kristin Neff. And she defines self-compassion as the practice of being kind and understanding towards oneself when experiencing failure, inadequacy, or suffering. And I think this really sums up some of the feelings that we might have in the grad school experience. When we think about imposter syndrome, we often feel like we are inadequate in what we are trying to learn. And as a student, that can be really alarming. We can be like, well, you know, I did all of this work, I did all of the things that I felt like I was supposed to do, and I am still feeling this way.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:13]: So something that we want to be mindful of is that our, our ability to say, hey, what you are doing is really hard, and it is okay to have these thoughts, these feelings, these experiences, we tend to reduce that kind of like idea that we're not allowed to feel a certain way or that we're not allowed to have uncomfortable or difficulty emotions in the process. And what we also learn is that we're able to accept that these challenges are in front of us, that we're doing the best that we can. We're trying to balance what's in front of us. And in that process, we're accepting the fact that whatever I'm trying to do now will inevitably help in some way. What we don't want is to beat ourselves up over our process. We don't want to say that we're incapable of addressing these things. It's ultimately just going to be about saying, I accept that I'm feeling this, and I'm being kind to myself in the process as I figure out how I want to take it. In line with that, we're giving ourselves the permission to kind of feel some of these negative and uncomfortable feelings.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:24]: Part of self-compassion is being able to say, wow, I have a lot of emotions in this moment, and I don't really know what to do with them, and they're kind of freaking me out. But emotions are there for a reason. They remind us when things are important. They tell us that we, that we want something out of an experience, or they tell us how to survive, right? Or how to get out of of an experience. And what we, what we don't want is to shame ourselves into thinking that negative feelings automatically mean failure or bad or whatever it is, but rather, okay, I don't love that I'm feeling this negative feeling, or I'm uncomfortable by this. What does it mean for me? How do I look at this from that lens of balance? And why might I be feeling uncomfortable? Right? So we can practice that skill. I did see a question about the slide deck. You will likely receive this.

Reilly Chabie [00:22:16]: I typically send it out afterwards. words to Dr. Lewis, but I appreciate that question regardless. So once we've kind of gotten into that spot of like feeling our feelings and offering that self-compassion, there are some interesting skills that we can utilize, especially when it relates to those overwhelming emotions that I always like to let people know about. So specifically, I like to talk about these skills that are considered distress tolerance skills. Distress tolerance essentially is this idea that we're working towards tolerating tolerating the fact that we will likely come into contact with distress. Things in life are stressful, therefore we're learning how to tolerate that. And this is more so to kind of give us that space to feel what we need to feel rather than saying that all of the things we experience have to be felt a certain way.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:09]: So when we're thinking about distress tolerance, there's a couple of things that I suggest that individuals do. So first and foremost, when we're in heightened levels of stress, such as like when we're experiencing burnout, something that can be really helpful is building up a sense of grounding or reality. So when we're feeling stressed, we tend to kind of feel outside of our body a little bit, we tend to struggle on our focusing, we kind of feel disconnected. So in an effort to ground or kind of bring us back to that sense of reality in that present moment, I suggest utilizing the 5-4-3-2-1 method. I know that's kind of a mouthful, but all that essentially is asking you to do is you're going to utilize your 5 senses in order to reacclimate to your present moment. So for example, I might do this practice by asking myself to think of It's not thinking, but around me in the present moment, I'm going to identify 5 things that I see. I'm going to then go down to 4 things that I can touch, 3 things that I can smell, 2 things I can hear, and 1 thing that I can taste. And although some people will suggest that doing the senses that are kind of the easiest, so maybe like sight and hearing or the touch, to be in those like 5-4-3 areas.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:44]: You can kind of mix and match that however you feel is appropriate for you. Whatever senses you feel like are most applicable, you can still utilize this even if you're not using all 5, or if you want to reorganize that system to be most approachable to you. All that's doing is it's bringing you back into the present moment, which allows you to reconnect to any sort of thing that you're trying to navigate in that moment. I also suggest the concept radical acceptance, which is a more like key distress tolerance And radical acceptance involves fully acknowledging and embracing your present moment, including all of the difficulties and the discomforts that you're feeling, without trying to change or control it. And I know that seems kind of counterproductive to the idea of balance, but if you think about yourself, for example, on a boat, let's say it's like a small, like one-person boat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Mm-hmm.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:39]: And you notice that the waves are kind of rocking you back and forth a little bit, and you're trying not to tip over on the boat. You might, unfortunately, in order to try and control that situation, you might overcorrect as the waves tilt you in one direction, and that might make the boat tip over. So what we don't necessarily always want to do is focus on how we control a particular emotion or discomfort. Sometimes it pays off to simply acknowledge its presence and be like, wow, Wow, this doesn't feel great, and not put that expectation on ourselves to fix it or change it or figure it out. And what you might tend to notice, as per somebody mentioned earlier in the chat, is that that thing that's making you feel uncomfortable or distressed might be outside of your control, which tells you that it doesn't fit into your key balancing act, right? If something's outside of your control, all you can focus on is what you can do in that moment. And using radical acceptance and kind of acknowledging that discomfort can kind of lead to that realization, helping us through that process. So those kind of original tips focused a lot on some of those emotional aspects and kind of being kind to ourselves and really focusing on, on that cognitive piece. I also feel like it's helpful to kind of provide some practical balancing tips, especially as we relate it back to the academic side of our experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:09]: So think about like our organizational tools, our time management tools, things like that. So first and foremost, for balancing, we can think about creating a schedule that includes self-care, specific breaks, or other relaxation techniques, right? We're trying to kind of organize and balance things out a little bit. We might block out time in that schedule for things that we value.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:34]: Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:34]: So for example, if we really value our social connection, we're gonna wanna schedule time to make sure that we are connecting with those we care about, family, friends, so on and so forth. If we are really into a particular hobby, being able to make sure we create space for that in whatever capacity we can helps to create balance when things are stressful. It can also be time between classes, activities, work-related events, things like that, to kind of give yourself a chance to reset or emotionally and mentally recollect. I remember during my grad school days, I would focus on like my commute as a great way to just kind of disconnect from what I had just been experiencing before I enter into my next role or, you know, my specific thing as soon as I got home or went to work or whatever it was. So maybe I use that as a time to listen to music or listen to an audiobook or just allow myself to listen to the car sounds as I was driving on 75 wherever I was going. So think about some of those ways in which you can organize your time to kind of create that balance. We can also consider shifting and shuffling priorities when needed, right? So maybe it's okay for me to shift my work schedule around to make room for this time I need to study before my exam, or maybe I can shuffle around this thing that I had scheduled or this preemptive study time to focus on being present with my family for a little bit, whatever it might be. It's also really crucial that you work together with your loved ones, your peers in your classes, or colleagues to kind of create a sense of support and accountability.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:18]: Doing this all by yourself can be really hard, and I think a big part of why these webinars are offered is to showcase that there are resources and spaces on campus that can help you feel like you can maintain this, this kind of project for yourself and engage in the things that you want to engage in. So be mindful of what's around you, who you're connecting with, and utilize them in that way. And then once again, some of these basic time management skills— so planners, calendars, using task lists, whatever feels like it's going to be most applicable to you and your experience. And this could also be a great time to try something new if you've never tried it before. This is a good time to explore some of those areas before we start the semester so that you can kind of consider how that would fit into your daily experience. I think it's helpful too just to remind yourself that priorities change, and as we try to work towards balance, we might notice that something calls our attention over the thing we were originally trying to balance out. And it's okay to focus on other areas of your wellness as you try to tackle one that's been particularly difficult. Because if our wellness areas make up a whole person, sometimes we got to, you know, figure out how to deal with this part of our emotional wellness before we figure out how to take care of our spiritual wellness.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:41]: And we don't know that until we start exploring some of these different areas. So once again, that's where that kind of self-compassion and kindness can come into play. As I mentioned, when we were kind of going over our overview for our conversation today, I wanted to specifically take some time out to talk about boundaries, which is an aspect of this balancing act that we're talking about here. Boundaries in particular, I think to some degree have been a bit of a buzzword over the years, but they're really crucial in helping you build your own confidence and kind of maintaining your own sense of identity as you work your way through the U of M Flint community. And I think it's helpful to consider that there are several different types of boundaries that you might engage in. Some might be more applicable in one area of your life over another, but I put this helpful kind of graphic up here to kind of give you some insight into what these boundaries might look like. So we have boundaries like our mental boundaries, emotional boundaries, internal boundaries that help us kind of self-regulate as a As opposed to boundaries that we set with other people. We of course have our physical boundaries, time boundaries, and even the way in which we converse with one another.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:03]: So not an exhaustive list, but once again, a helpful kind of diagram to give us an idea as to what types of boundaries we may or may not need to set in our time at U of M Flint. So let's think about what the process actually is in setting boundaries. So setting boundaries is really focused on building a sense of understanding your limits. So you know you best. You're likely to kind of be able to do these self-check-ins to be like, wow, you know, I'm doing this thing and I've realized that I've hit this threshold, right? I am above this threshold in whatever I'm feeling. I know that sometimes I feel like that in group work where I'm trying to communicate with somebody and I'm having some challenges. I know where my limit is. So I try to set some boundaries in order for me to not get frustrated or feel resentful or challenge other people in my group.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:00]: So ultimately, you might ask yourself through self-check-ins, am I getting enough rest? That might help you give an idea as to where your limits are in terms of how much sleep you're getting. You might ask yourself, am I doing too much? Or is this particular situation nourishing me in the way that I need it to? So those self-check-ins can kind of help you define those limits. It's important that when setting boundaries, you're considering when you need to say no. I think that's pretty typical in that boundary space. Once you've known a limit, you might say no to something in particular to kind of help address that issue. But it is also important to know when to say yes. So yes to something can help build our confidence, can help challenge us in different ways to help balance out some of those core wellness dimensions. We also want to be able to kind of determine what our priorities are.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:54]: So what exactly are the priorities in that particular situation? And are these boundaries that I need going to align with those priorities? Or even asking yourself, is this situation aligning with my priorities? So once we've kind of established some of those things, although it's not necessarily as clear-cut in the real world, I like to break it down into these 3 steps in terms of how you're going to set your boundary. So first, you're going to define the boundary. What does it look like? What specific thing are you trying to create a boundary? So going back to the previous slide, we might look at, okay, I'm going to set an emotional boundary, or I'm going to set a time-based boundary because I know that I need to leave in the next half hour if I'm going to make it to work on time. So you're gonna define that boundary. Next step, you're gonna communicate that. You're gonna showcase to yourself, how do I communicate? How do I say this in an appropriate way? How do I say this in a way that is effective and clear? And consider who your audience is. You might set a boundary differently with a professor as you do with a best friend. It just depends.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:07]: And then the last step is set your consequence. So we're not necessarily talking about ultimatums when we think about setting consequences, but rather what's going to happen if a boundary is not respected. So if I set a boundary and somebody doesn't respect that, is the consequence that I'm going to reiterate that boundary and then say, look, I, I can't engage in it this time, I'm gonna have to leave right now, I can't stay for that extra 30 minutes that I had before, right? So what does that consequence look like? And even more so, when you set that consequence, that's you essentially setting yourself up to be held accountable internally on reinforcing and engaging in those boundaries. It's one thing to set a boundary. It's a whole other thing to reinforce them and kind of enforce them in a way that kind of keeps us accountable. So let's go over a quick example slide of what some of these boundaries might might look like. So for example, I might word a boundary such as, I'm going to be honest and vulnerable with myself. That might be an internal type of boundary that I hold myself accountable to.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:15]: Or I might say, I'm going to keep a gratitude journal. That's kind of like a material, perhaps, boundary that like, I want to engage in this thing. I'm saying yes to this thing, and I'm going to hold myself accountable to that. I might also say, as a friend, you shouldn't be gossiping about me. That's another type of kind of social boundary that we can set, right? We're very clearly communicating like, hey, you're gossiping about me and that's not okay as a friend. You might also say, I'm uncomfortable in this situation, so I'm going to leave, right? So that's a clear boundary, a clear expectation stating without too much detail what you're experiencing. This is my wording. This does not necessarily reflect what you yourself will feel or what you yourself are going to experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:37:02]: So keep that in mind that although these are some examples, they may not perfectly line up with your experience and you might word them differently. But each of these kind of give a clear depiction as to what a boundary could be, and you can set time limits to them. You can add them in particular situations. It just depends on where you need to set that boundary. So as we look at wrapping up here, I have a few more slides to just kind of talk about last thoughts and then some resources. I think it's so crucial to consider that as you're practicing balance and boundaries, it will not happen overnight, you feeling balanced. You might feel closer and closer that you're getting to that point, but it takes a lot of practice to engage in this work, and it requires a sense of understanding that you're likely to make mistakes and that it's gonna be kind of challenging, that if we don't feel it overnight and we choose to stop, we're not gonna achieve that balance in the way that we want to. So be kind to yourself in that process.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:05]: And the more you practice, the more likely it's going to be second nature and more of a habit for you, the same way we build habits in other ways. And ultimately, when in doubt, if you're not sure if you should set a boundary, if you're not sure you should do a coping skill, if you're not sure what you should be doing, you can always ask for help in whatever context that you're in. Maybe you need to ask for help by extending an assignment, sending an email to your professor. Maybe you just need to yap about it with your friends for a little bit and really process through that information before you determine what you need to do. Ultimately, Ultimately, you have people on campus, you have people in your life who are great soundboards in trying to navigate and work through these stressors as you start your grad degree. And it is perfectly acceptable to ask questions and really get to know what other people are doing too, so that you have something to go off of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:08]: Reilly, great job. Thank you so much for all of this. You did a great job as always. So thank you very much, Reilly, for being here tonight and for sharing all of this amazing information, and wish you the best as you start the new term. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:52]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Darien Wilkerson tackle a challenge nearly every graduate student faces: imposter syndrome. Through a thoughtful conversation, the episode explores what imposter syndrome looks like, why it happens, and—most importantly—how you can manage it to foster success throughout your graduate experience.

Defining Imposter Syndrome

Right from the start, Darien Wilkerson clarifies that imposter syndrome isn't a mental health disorder, but rather a common "thinking error"—a cognitive distortion that leads capable, accomplished people to doubt their worth or believe their success is due to luck. If you've ever questioned whether you truly deserved an achievement, wondered when others would "find out" you're not as competent as they think, or attributed accomplishments to external factors, you're not alone. Many students, regardless of their background or experience, feel this way at some point.

Recognizing the Signs and the Cycle

The conversation delves into the broader impacts of imposter syndrome: chronic anxiety, burnout, perfectionism, and the need for external validation. Darien Wilkerson draws attention to how these feelings can create a repeating cycle—doubt leads to over-preparation, achievement brings only brief relief, and then the process repeats itself.

Crucially, the episode discusses different "types" of imposter syndrome, based on research by Dr. Valerie Young: the perfectionist, the expert, the soloist, the natural genius, and the superhuman. Recognizing your own tendencies in these categories can be the first step to addressing them.

Why Does It Happen?

Many factors contribute: family and cultural expectations, pre-existing mental health challenges, negative comparisons to others, new or unfamiliar environments, and even being part of a minority group in an academic setting. Understanding the root causes can help frame your feelings and set the stage for effective strategies to manage them.

Practical Strategies for Management

Most empowering, the episode offers actionable steps for listeners. Darien Wilkerson encourages acknowledging feelings without judgment, challenging negative self-talk, celebrating accomplishments (even small ones), and embracing a growth mindset. Simple exercises—like naming your achievements or reframing negative thoughts—can shift your perspective and boost confidence.

Listen and Grow

This episode isn't just an exploration—it's a toolkit for students, offering both understanding and real-world steps to thrive, not just survive, in grad school. If you've ever struggled with doubt or the pressure to be perfect, tune into this episode of Victors in Grad School for practical guidance and a reminder: you absolutely belong.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Tonight we're going to be talking about the imposter syndrome and understanding imposter syndrome. It's definitely something that most graduate students are going to have happen to them at some point, and it's important to have some some hints, some tricks, some things that you can do to be able to prepare yourself, but also to know what to do when it happens. And I'm excited to be able to have another colleague friend from our university here. Darien Wilkerson is with us. Darien is with our Counseling and Psychological Services Office. You're also gonna hear it called CAPS, and that is our Counseling and Psychological Services Office on campus. And they're here to support you. And I know that Darien will talk about that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: So I'm gonna turn it over to Darien. Darien, thanks so much for being here tonight.

Darien Wilkerson [00:00:57]: Yeah, likewise. Thank you, Dr. Lewis. And again, welcome everyone who's about to be joining U of M Flint in your graduate studies here. So my role this evening is just going to be walking you guys through understanding imposter syndrome just a little bit. So having a little bit more context, ideas, and some strategies, because like Dr. Lewis said, at some point, whether that's in the program or beyond, we're going to potentially navigate Or go through our own process of this phenomenon, right? And just trying to figure out how do we work through it? What do we do? So we will jump into that. So some quick learning objectives.

Darien Wilkerson [00:01:35]: Again, we're gonna understand that defining that definition of imposter syndrome, identify those self-patterns associated with imposter syndrome. So as we're going through this PowerPoint, start to really reflect on yourself currently. What could be possible? What's currently happening right now? Getting into graduate program in itself can feel like that too, right? So just really start to reflect currently where you're at and just kind of examine those factors that contribute to self-doubt and perceived inadequacy. Going to learn a little bit about applying those strategies to challenge imposter thoughts and reframing those negative self-talk, and then ultimately learn to develop those healthier approaches to success. And hopefully trying to get more self-compassion, growth, and recognition of your current accomplishments and future accomplishments. So I will try to stay mindful of the chat in case there's questions that kind of come through. Hopefully with time we'll be able to get to some questions, but just let everyone know I am trying to stay mindful of that. So feel free to kind of put those in the chat when it comes to mind.

Darien Wilkerson [00:02:40]: But I just want to set the stage for us. As we're kind of talking about imposter syndrome, I think it's fair for us to get into a headspace, right? So I start with this slide. Have you ever— these are some of the go-to questions, right? Felt like you didn't deserve an accomplishment? Wondered when someone would realize you weren't capable of something? Attributed your success to luck or good timing? Or you felt like everyone else knew what they were doing except you? These are really the starting blocks of questioning that we put on ourselves that makes imposter syndrome start to become active. So it's good to recognize, man, do I really say this to myself? Are these common themes of questioning that I do? And if so, how do we start to start— how do we start to address those things now so they don't move into an introduction of imposter syndrome? So let's get into a little bit of the definition. So imposter syndrome is a psychological cognitive distortion. That's a fancy word, but it's basically just saying a thinking error. We all have thinking errors. They come up from time to time.

Darien Wilkerson [00:03:50]: But really, imposter syndrome is not a mental health disorder or a challenge. It's just a thinking— how we're thinking, how we're processing something, right? And that involves feelings of self-doubt. Inadequacy, personal incompetence, and that persists despite the education, experience, or accomplishments that you already have. So it's really this thing that says you're not capable when there's so much evidence that says the opposite, right? It's like I said, a large amount of people will probably experience that within their life, and it's not a diagnosable mental health challenge. This is something that we could go through depending on various different factors. So how does it present? That questioning on the last slide is typically how it starts. So it starts to— it starts with questioning ourselves. We have negative self-talk, which is more so just like really saying negative things about ourselves on a regular basis.

Darien Wilkerson [00:04:46]: Inability to internalize accomplishments. So maybe if you're hearing an accomplishment, you might start to question or doubt it. And that continues that feeling of inadequacy, right? Because we don't leave room for Positives. So those are quick definitions, quick, you know, symptoms, if you will, when it comes to what imposter syndrome can look like. So future concerns. So this is happening on a regular basis. What are some of these concerns long term if we don't find management? So that imposter syndrome can lead to anxiety, you know, where we have high levels of chronic anxiety. Because we're questioning everything, right, and our capabilities.

Darien Wilkerson [00:05:28]: Depression, low mood can come up. Burnout, overworking, meaning you might have to feel like you have to prove yourself. So in proving yourself, you're working more and more and more just to try to, you know, show people I am worthy, I am capable. And that could potentially lead to burnout, overworking. That also leads to perfectionism. You don't really have a lot of room or space to want to make mistakes because if you don't feel like you belong, You feel like you constantly have to be perfect. So perfectionism can be a challenge or a concern. And then external validation, you might be craving that external validation all the time.

Darien Wilkerson [00:06:07]: And that could be good or bad, right? And how that shapes us. Self-sabotage, right? So we might quit a job. We may not want to pursue the degree that we want to pursue because we feel like we just aren't able to do it. That can lead to procrastination because procrastination typically is trying to protect us from failure, right? So we delay starting something in fear of us potentially failing that thing. And then self-criticism and low self-esteem, they kind of unfortunately go hand in hand together. But this is talking about our image. How do we view ourselves? And how are we talking to ourselves on a regular basis? So those are some of those feature concerns when we talk about imposter syndrome, which is really important that we're We're trying to have this conversation now so these future concerns don't become so pressing. Okay, so the next one, I think it's good to talk about the cycle that imposter syndrome can have for us.

Darien Wilkerson [00:07:07]: So really, when you're thinking about imposter syndrome, it starts with a task. You get assigned a task, you get assigned a responsibility, or you move into a new role in your life, right? And that can create a flooding of anxiety or overpreparation. Right? From that anxiety over preparation, it can go into the yellow, which is task. It'll eventually get into a task finish, like you either complete the assignment, you complete the degree, right? And there's a quick moment of relief from that experience. But then we start rationalizing our accomplishments. I got lucky. Someone else would be better. There's something that starts to scale down our our accomplishment, right? Which leads to more self-doubt, less confidence, and the cycle continues there and there and there and just repeats itself, right? So if you recognize where you're at potentially in this cycle, that can probably help you slow down and stop and reflect.

Darien Wilkerson [00:08:05]: What is going on? Why am I in this situation? How can I get myself out of this cycle so it doesn't continue on again? So I just thought it was a good idea to introduce what the imposter phenomenon cycle can look like, just so we can be mindful moving forward. Another thing I think that's important is that there's different types of imposter syndrome. We're talking broadly, but there are different, like, distinguishable features of imposter syndrome, right? So this researcher, psychologist, Dr. Valerie Young, she did research And really composed of 5 different presentations and how imposter syndrome can come up. So we talked about it a little bit, but the perfectionist— so you don't have any— you don't have a lot of room to make errors. If you make an error, then that's automatically associated with shame. You have to be the expert in something. If you feel like you're not the expert, then you feel like you're failing, and that brings up shame as well.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:03]: So you have to be the best of the best. That's what the expert imposter is trying to say. If you're not the best at this, then You're not going to be good at this. Now, the soloist, basically meaning that it's wrong to ask for help, or you have a lot of anxiety or shame for asking for help. You should be able to accomplish this by yourself, right? The natural genius is talking about aptitude. You should have an aptitude to get this done with ease or speed. And if you start to struggle, then that starts to make us question, am I capable? Am I deserving, right? So then the last one is just talking about the superhuman. So that measures competence based on how many roles you can juggle or excel in.

Darien Wilkerson [00:09:47]: So if you're someone again who wants to be seen as like, I can do this, this, this, and this, and this at the same time, that's overwhelming to us, right? And we might not be able to manage that. So the superhuman is trying to say, I can do everything. Like, you can look at me, I can— I'm the person for the job. So again, these are 5 distinct ones, and I also believe if we are aware of which ones we fall into, our personalities lean towards, we can kind of start to rectify that so it doesn't get to a very severe state. So those would be the 5 types of imposter syndromes, right? Or presentations. So I am keeping an eye on that chat. So, all right, move forward. So causes.

Darien Wilkerson [00:10:38]: So we're talking about imposter syndrome. How does it occur? You know, what does occur, but what's the causes? Why do people get into this headspace, right? So there's a couple of different reasons. One is family dynamics, maybe, and that can also go into cultural expectations. So those kind of tie in together. So what does our family say about failure? What does our family say about being successful? What does that look like? And that could be tied into cultural expectations as well. So if you feel like you're failing based off of what you grew up knowing in your culture and your household, imposter syndrome can really flare up, unfortunately. Preexisting mental health challenges, so anxiety, depression, you know, these kind of common mental health challenges can be a precursor. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but You just have to be more mindful around how you're internalizing setbacks, failures, challenges, because imposter syndrome can come up when it comes to that.

Darien Wilkerson [00:11:38]: Negative fear-based comparisons. So if we're constantly comparing ourselves to other people, we don't look at comparison as a way of improving. We look at it as a way of being negative towards ourselves. I'll never amount to that, or they're better than me in this. We start to say these things to rationalize our position, and then it just makes us feel down, right? Novelty, while novelty can be good, like I said, those new opportunities and responsibilities can also create imposter syndrome. I'm new into this program. I'm new into this field. How— like, I don't have the backing or experience to say that I'm going to be good.

Darien Wilkerson [00:12:18]: So since I don't have that prior experience, you start to question and doubt, am I even going to be good at this thing, right? Lastly, I think the last one goes to cultural expectations, but holding minority identities Can also be room for imposter syndrome. Doesn't always happen, but if you're a minority going into a certain space, that can create imposter syndrome just initially, because you're trying to want to prove yourself, right? So there's a couple ideas to kind of think about for ourselves, right? But if any of those speak to you, this is time to reflect and just be mindful of how we're carrying some of those things. Okay, so conquering it. What are some of these strategies? So 4 steps for you, just quick things to keep in mind as you're trying to tackle the imposter syndrome if it does ever occur for you. Number 1, you just want to acknowledge the feeling. Whatever's coming up for you emotionally, you want to validate the presence of the emotion, minimize judgment towards that present feeling, and remind yourself that feelings don't always mean that they're facts. The only thing feelings do is gives us a direction to go towards. It doesn't say that's definitive or that's proof, right? So one, you just want to be mindful and just acknowledge that feeling.

Darien Wilkerson [00:13:39]: If you feel like you're disappointing someone, you feel like you're failing, if you're getting sad, start there and acknowledge that feeling. Step 2, challenge inner critic. So there's a critic that comes up, right? We talked about negative self-talk. So if you're saying negative things, you want to start to challenge the doubt. You want to challenge those things that come up for you. Ask for the evidence, whether that's internally to yourself or you start having conversations with other people. And also try to identify overlooked strengths. Identify successes you're not taking ownership of.

Darien Wilkerson [00:14:12]: It's probably a handful of things that we do that we just expect ourselves to do. But when you slow it down, you're like, oh, That's a big thing. I actually did excel in that. I did get into this program. I did get the grades and the test scores to actually show that I'm capable, right? So you want to start challenging those inner critic voices that come up. You want to do that early in. So that's step 1, acknowledging the feeling. Step 2 is challenging those— that inner critic.

Darien Wilkerson [00:14:43]: Okay, so this is a Brief reframing example. So the thought can say, I only got this opportunity because I got lucky. And then you want to start to challenge that thought, right? So some questions you might ask yourself is, what's the evidence for this thought? Is there any proof that supports it? And then what's the evidence against it? And you start to kind of put your thoughts on trial, basically, right? And then you start to create this catalog of information. And that will help you rationally understand, well, this thought doesn't have a lot of weight to it at all. And then you start asking more questions like, what would you tell a friend who had this thought? If you shift the perspective and you put it back to a friend sharing with you, well, I got this opportunity because I got lucky, what would you say to that friend? So that perspective-taking kind of helps us rationalize a little bit differently how we're talking to ourselves. And then the last one is, am I holding space for compassion? Am I really being compassionate to myself right now? Right? So I would say those are some of those 4 guided prompt questions just to ask ourselves when we're trying to challenge a thought. And I thought that was just probably something hopefully of value just to really start the conversation with ourselves or with somebody else if we had to. Okay, step 3.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:08]: Own your accomplishments. Easier said than done, right? But you want to start to reflect on your accomplishments and also celebrate those accomplishments. That could be celebration is pat yourself on the back, go out to eat, let somebody know. Just do something that celebrates and acknowledges, no, I did this thing. It actually happened. And then embrace the praise objectively. Right? Just allow the praise to occur. Acknowledge the discomfort internally if you hear the praise, but also to say, yeah, they have a point there.

Darien Wilkerson [00:16:40]: They're right. I did do this thing. And then ask an unbiased observer for evidence of your ability. So if you really feel like you need to have the extra mile, go the extra mile, ask someone else. Like, hey, did you like— and that could be a manager, that could be a boss, whoever. Those people are the ones that can really give you hopefully unbiased evidence or answers to some of your questions. And next to this is about an exercise you can try to do on the regular. Just 3 accomplishments that you're, you know, that you're proud of, 2 strengths you used to achieve them, and 1 piece of evidence that shows that you are capable of ongoing success.

Darien Wilkerson [00:17:21]: It's something you can try to do every now and then just to remind yourself, like, Yes, I have accomplishments in my past. Yes, I have these strengths, and this is the evidence of that strength. That might be helpful to continue to form positive thinking and reflection of our success, just so we can start to own up— own our accomplishments for step 3.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Okay.

Darien Wilkerson [00:17:47]: Then getting into step 4, recognizing Perfection is not a real thing, right? So you want to go from perfection to growth. So recognize progress is more important than perfection. Success does not require perfection. Failure can be a teachable moment. So if you're in— as you're in school moving forward, if you feel like there's times that you feel like you failed, that does not mean that's the end of your story or end of learning or growing. It just means that you have a moment where you can actually get the most out of the opportunity. You can ask questions, clarifying questions, consult with people, try to figure out how do I ensure that this doesn't happen to me again, right? And that can hopefully lead to self-compassion, which removes you from going from a place of judgment and shame to actually being able to grow from that situation. So really, step 4 is talking about just being, being kind to yourself and just trying to be in a growth mentality versus a perfectionist mentality.

Darien Wilkerson [00:18:51]: And that should hopefully guide us through any kind of imposter syndrome that could come up. So the finalized toolkit list is just talking about, you know, start to finish what we just discussed. Acknowledge the feeling, check the evidence, challenge the thought, avoid negative comparisons. If anything, use comparison as a motivator versus anything that could bring us down. Practice self-compassion. That could be through the accomplishments that we talked about. And also just remember the accomplishments, accept the praise, and focus on the growth. So those are just, just a quick toolkit list of just reminders, just so you have those.

Darien Wilkerson [00:19:33]: But yeah, that's what I have for you when it comes to imposter syndrome. How do you tackle it? What it, what it is. So now questions. If anyone had any of those questions, that would be a good time to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:47]: Darien, this is great. Really appreciate you sharing all of this. It definitely opened my eyes to some things that I hadn't even thought of, and so I really appreciate you walking us through this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:00]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you setting out on the next step of your academic career? Whether you're a prospective student or already admitted, the journey into graduate school can feel both thrilling and daunting. In the recent episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis gathers a powerhouse panel of UM-Flint faculty—Dr. Amy Yorke, Shelby Newport, and Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer—to share insight, encouragement, and practical advice for students about to embark on this transformative chapter.

Curiosity, Openness, and Risk-Taking: Keys to Thriving

One of the major themes in this candid conversation is the power of curiosity. Shelby Newport highlights how students who approach their studies with an open mind and a "thirst for knowledge" get the most from both their coursework and their relationships with faculty. Every panelist underscores the value of taking risks—introducing yourself to professors, trying new things academically, and stepping outside your comfort zone.

Dr. Amy Yorke expands on the idea of risk-taking, urging students to be proactive in making connections and embracing discomfort as part of growth. Rather than seeing new challenges as obstacles, the panel encourages reframing them as opportunities to become stronger, more resilient scholars.

Building Meaningful Faculty Relationships

A standout point from the episode is the importance of genuine interaction between students and faculty. Whether you're studying in-person or online, building connections early makes it easier to ask for help, gain mentorship, and tap into career opportunities down the line. The panel advises introducing yourself, participating actively, and reaching out even when things are going well—not just when you're struggling.

Embracing Support and University Resources

Graduate school is demanding, but you're never alone. The faculty share practical recommendations for time management, advocating for starting strong, using campus resources (like counseling and library services), and communicating openly when life hits a rough patch.

The Bigger Picture: Growth, Balance, and Belonging

Perhaps most powerfully, the episode reminds listeners that while grad school brings new pressures, it's also about self-discovery, finding balance, and developing a community of learning. Both vulnerability and persistence are celebrated as essential ingredients for success.

Ready for more inspiration and concrete advice as you begin your graduate school adventure? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and let these expert voices guide you toward a fulfilling and successful graduate experience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited that you're here today for the first of a number of sessions that we lovingly call our Jumpstart Orientation. It is a way for us to be able to help you to make that jump start into graduate school. And I am so excited to be able to kick off with a few of our faculty members that are joining us today to be able to talk to you about jumping into graduate school, what it's like, what to expect when you get to here for your classes, and to be able to help you in this journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: I've got 3 of my friends with me tonight, Dr. Amy Yorke from our physical therapy program, Shelby Newport from our Arts Administration program, and Dr. Mohamed Mekawer from our Artificial Intelligence— no, yes, Artificial Intelligence program. I'm like, wait a minute, I just lost it for a second. I am so excited to have all 3 of them here today and be able to moderate a conversation with them. But what we want to do is engage with you too. So this opportunity is going to be, I'm gonna ask them some questions that I've prepared, but then really, if you've got questions, throw 'em in the chat. And we're, you know, no questions off bounds.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: We want to answer your questions tonight to be able to help to demystify what it's gonna be like and to help you to better get yourself prepared. So, so my friends, thank you for being here. Really appreciate it.

Shelby Newport [00:01:55]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: And I'm going to kick this off by asking a question to all 3 of you. From your perspective, what separates graduate students who really thrive from those who struggle in graduate school?

Shelby Newport [00:02:09]: Who wants to kick it off? Should I jump in?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:02:12]: Go ahead, Shelby, and then I'll follow up after you.

Shelby Newport [00:02:14]: Great. Um, hi all, welcome. Um, like Dr. Lewis said, I'm Shelby Newport. I'm a costume designer and in the Department of Fine and Performing Arts in the area of theater, which is where arts administration sits. And what separates our graduate students, I think, might be the same as all graduate students, which is this curiosity and a willingness. And so you come in the classroom and you know you're not the smartest person in the room. You act like you're not the smartest person in the room, and you're there with this curiosity for Like, bring it.

Shelby Newport [00:02:51]: What is it gonna be? And I'm ready for it because I just have this like thirst for knowledge. And those are the students that get the opportunities to work alongside faculty more often, who get the opportunities for the faculty member to say, that paper was so great and had so much in it. I want you to submit it to this conference and come alongside and present with me. Like, those extra opportunities come to those with that.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:03:19]: Gonna add to that with that curiosity is the risk-taking. So being willing to introduce yourself to the faculty member face-to-face is really powerful, but even an email has meaning as well. Being willing to kind of take that risk of stepping out of your comfort zone. So even if you have never like engaged in research, but you're curious about it, of saying, you know, are there any projects that you're working on? projects that you need help or assistance with. Any of those things of taking risk. Because if you're not feeling uncomfortable, you're not growing, and graduate school is going to push you to grow. And you'd rather have it— you'd rather have you kind of leading that a little bit with some pushing versus being pulled all the time, because that becomes really, really hard. So just adding on to Shelby's curiosity, I would add taking risk.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:20]: All right, so I guess it's my turn. So hello everyone, good afternoon, and it's my pleasure to talk about to you about my experience. So my name is again Mohamed Makour. I'm actually from the computer science background, so I direct software engineering and AI. And I will probably, to add to what Shelby and Amy were saying, I'll talk about my experience, right? So when I did my bachelor degree, I was looking for a degree to get a job. When I went out for my master's, I was looking for opportunity. I wasn't looking for a degree. I already have one.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:51]: I already have a job. And I've already seen a lot of problems in industry where I was working. And I realized that I need to develop some skills that are needed for me to go to the next level, to upscale my career, right? So the master's program was not a degree that I was seeking. It was an opportunity for me to develop better skills that can help me be better in what I do as a software engineer back then. And then I realized I enjoyed that kind of problem solving so much that I have to also continue with the PhD level, right? So, so to me, grad school is where you realize, okay, this is where I am right now in my career. Can I do a shift? Can I improve it? Can I go deeper into some topic that I think I enjoy the most, but I don't have the appropriate skills for? And that's how you kick off your master's degree. To me, this is how you succeed on it because You are actually now driving your own decision on where you want to specialize versus you are, as in the bachelor's, taking a bunch of courses just because you want to have a degree and you have no background, right? This is how— this is my perception of a successful, you know, graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]: How should students approach their first few weeks of graduate school to get off to a strong start?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:03]: What advice would you give to students who are struggling with time management?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:06:08]: I would encourage students to review the course syllabus and start to put down dates in your calendar of when things are due, and knowing that you have a life outside of school. So depending on if you're a full-time student or part-time student, right, we're all very, very busy. And so establishing like, this is when things are due, so you can start to plan your other activities or make adjustments adjustments or changes, I think it's really important. And I always encourage students to start strong, like study more at the beginning than perhaps what you think you need, because you don't want to find yourself like in a hole. So in the physical therapy program, our majority of our students are full-time, and the hard thing is, is when they have study habits that they used in undergrad and they believe that those study habits will continue to serve them, such as waiting to study for an exam until the night before. And then And then they realize that does not serve them well, and they find themselves in a hole. You don't want to find yourself in a hole. So knowing what your schedule is and perhaps studying and being engaged in the content more upfront builds success, because success begets success.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:07:23]: So that's my word of advice for you.

Shelby Newport [00:07:27]: Mohamed, I liked your story about how you started your graduate experience, and I want to share just a little piece of mine, which is an MFA in costume design and theater. Purdue University, a big school and on-site, not online. But my advice as a now costume designer is when you look good, you feel good. And so look the part. Think about how you present yourself on campus or in an online setting. Because in my Arts Administration program, it's fully online. And so yeah, we know you're in and out and you're doing stuff and you're joining a 5:30 class, maybe running from dropping off the kids and getting dinner ready and sitting down. But when you're in it and turn your camera on and you're in it, like, what does it all kind of put together to show your faculty member that you are ready to learn? You've got that curiosity and that willingness, and you're in it.

Shelby Newport [00:08:23]: Doesn't mean you don't have pajama pants on the bottom. You know, maybe that's the case, but like, be ready.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:32]: All right, so let me, let me start where I ended earlier. So in the, in your bachelor's degree, we are most likely told what to take as courses. In the master's program, this is your opportunity to decide about your own path, right? A lot of programs, at least the one that we administer at the CIT, at the computer science, we allow students to have their own custom-made paths, right? At least as director, I would say that the majority of my students, they don't follow the same path in their courses. It means that each one of them will have like a pile of courses that they choose based on their preferences, based on the challenges they are facing. Facing in their careers. And therefore, it's your opportunity for you to choose carefully what courses will contribute to your career and do so. Something that you may not do necessarily at the bachelor's level. So this is how you start strong is by selecting carefully the courses that will benefit you the most.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:23]: And I like also taking risk. Take risk at the master's level by taking courses that can really challenge you in different ways. That being said, in the master's program or in the graduate level, you have a career. You have a life. You have a family. Also pace it carefully when you do so, right? So you don't have to go full-time if you can't. That's totally fine, right? It's the graduate programs are designed to help you with your own pace. We can actually work to make that happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:54]: How can students build meaningful relationships with faculty rather than only interacting with them when they need something?

Shelby Newport [00:10:04]: Well, in those online spaces, it's showing that engagement. And I think it's really easy to be a camera-off person, and it's— it's in some situations call for that. But as much as you can, show the faculty member in those synchronous online classes that you're engaged and you want to be there. And that's interjecting with a hand up or comments in the chat, whatever that class kind of rhythm is, but it's, it's an engagement.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:10:35]: There's nothing sweeter than being called by one's name. And so I think, again, like doing that introduction. So whether it's online or face-to-face, hi, my name is Amy Yorke. I'm one of the members in your class. Here's just a little bit about me. I'm excited to be here. Like that touch, that, that point means a lot. Don't ever think that you're bothering faculty to share to introduce yourself because you're not.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:11:01]: We're here to help you. Some— there's been numerous people along my path that have helped me, and it's, it's those reaching out points. And if you don't do it in the first couple weeks, don't think that you've lost your chance. Don't, don't, don't think you've lost it. And I also encourage it to happen early because you don't want your first contact with the faculty to be like, I'm struggling. And I don't know what to do. That can absolutely be the first contact, and don't be afraid to contact the faculty member if you're struggling. But if you start to develop that relationship sooner, it just makes it— it makes it a lot easier relationship.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:11:39]: And the more that I know about you and what drives you and why you're here and what your goals are, the better able I'm gonna be able to help you reach all of those.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:53]: Let me give a different perspective, which also based on my own experience. So I did my master's in University of Michigan-Dearborn, and during that master's/PhD, I had interactions with a lot of faculty that were not even my teachers, and I was able to benefit from them without being in their classroom. It's you being in a university means you are being with a lot of people that have a lot of added value that can really contribute to your career in so many ways, right? So do not just stick to the classroom. Be open to faculty who have projects, who have initiatives, who have clubs, who have events. Be there, participate, and, and build that network, build that connection with them, because it could be beneficial in so many ways. So therefore, you are here in university taking a class, whether it's online or in person, not doing anything like other type of, you know, learning, like, you know, tutorials or YouTube or or Udemy or whatever. You are here because you are looking for human touch. So benefit from it and make sure you connect with your faculty in so many ways because it will stay beyond your degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:03]: Mohamed, let me, let me go a little deeper on that. How would you say that students should take advantage of faculty expertise beyond what happens in the class?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:13]: Absolutely. Let me start with this one, and I will give you examples, right? So one example was that students come to the classroom with problems, right? Challenges they either experience in their classroom or they experience in their careers, right? Find the right people who have not just the experience or the skill set, but also they have the excitement about this topic. Because us faculty, we are all excited about some topics, right? We all are engaged in some ways in some specific topics, right? Recently one student came to me and say, I have an experience in how we can refactor code, right? And to me, this is my favorite thing in the world, right? So automatically we connected, we started working together, we published papers together, despite that they are not in my classroom. It's as simple as that, right? They were able to benefit from the tool I developed during that time, and I was able to develop some research. So it happens in so many ways, right? For instance, I will give my own example when I was a student. There was one faculty in Dearborn that they have a book. They had a book about software engineering and I spent countless hours discussing chapters of that book, you know, and how we can improve that book and how we can benefit from it. Because I was reading it, I was excited about it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:24]: I brought a lot of things that I think they should improve. And guess what? I'm using that book right now in my classroom after it was improved, right? So yes, you can benefit from that connection in so many ways if you are already engaged. If you bring your own problems to the table, you can actually find people who can share that excitement about those problems.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:44]: Shelby or Amy, any thoughts on that one either?

Shelby Newport [00:14:49]: I'm not sure if it directly goes back to your original question, but just to say that I have in the past worked with graduate research assistants that were studying something else but were interested in exploring like my costume and theater history research. And those have been really productive relationships, to Mohamed's point. So there are opportunities not only in that social aspect and kind of where adjacent, but also maybe something that feels really different, but that the university offers. And maybe it scratches an itch in creativity or something else that helps your brain work through the stress and complications of your actual degree program, but gives you money as a graduate research assistant somewhere else. And those, I think at UM-Flint, we do those interdisciplinary, transdisciplinary relationships really well because we're small enough to be able to know each and interact as faculty and as students across the campus.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:15:52]: And I would add to that, some of the best conversations I have with students are not necessarily related to the content that I'm teaching, but it's related to things like, I really like the way that you teach, like, or I really noticed this about something very specific, you know, like I'd like to teach someday. And so that type of interaction of expertise I think that's a really good piece, not only like specifically for me, like as a physical therapist who specializes in neurologic rehab, but like outside of that, that as a student, as a human, you recognize characteristics of people. And in general, we like to talk about ourselves. And so just like we want to hear you talk about ourselves or yourself, if you ask us a question about ourselves, we're always very willing to share. And perhaps indirectly provide you some ideas for your own professional growth and development and some maybe indirect mentoring as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:54]: What are some common mistakes that you see graduate students make that can hurt their success or their relationships with faculty?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:17:04]: Not asking for help, I think, is one of the hardest— is one of the key areas that Yeah, and I would—

Shelby Newport [00:17:41]: similar to that, I have seen students that just totally ghost, and that disappearing when you're feeling like you're not being as successful as you want to be, or you're overwhelmed, or whatever that might be, is not useful. Because of the intensity of these programs and the expectations on you as a graduate student, it's really important to communicate when you're struggling. And so that's to Amy's point, it's asking for help, but it's also just telling me what's going on. It's letting me know that someone in your family is really ill, and you're in the caregiving responsibility role, and it's tough, and you're trying to keep up. With that information, because we know you're adults, you're different than undergraduate students. I mean, I want my undergraduate students to say that as well. But I think with graduate students, you have so many things layered into your life right now. And to know just a portion of that lets me be a better teacher for you and supporter and mentor and sets you up with resources that you might not even know you have on campus.

Shelby Newport [00:18:48]: So if I had a student say, I just lost my babysitter and now I can't come to the 5:30 Tuesday night class and like stuff's going on, I would tell you that there is backup childcare resources available for students. That's a co— it's called— you can all Google it— UM Emergency Backup Care. It's a benefit that you get as a student, I get as a faculty member, and it provides vetted care for children in emergency situations in your home or in a center. And like, maybe you didn't know you had that. A lot of my colleagues didn't know they had that. So in conversation and saying that you're struggling helps those resources come out as well.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:19:32]: So maybe my number one advice to students or to avoid the mistake that I see happen a lot is is the mistake of starting your work late. You know, graduate school is designed for you to challenge you in so many ways, and working on your assignments late means you are starting to work on a problem that requires a reflection while you're very stressed because you are catching a deadline, right? And that stress of catching a deadline will actually make you miss the whole point of the assignment. So a lot of my— at least this is speaking maybe out of my own area of specializations. If you're working on an assignment the day of the deadline, you may actually get it done, but you will miss the whole point of the assignment. You will not have enough time to reflect, to think of it, to think of how you can improve that problem and what makes it really interesting. You will just get it done and you will miss the whole point. So therefore, starting early is key to be able to understand, reflect, think of it, and give an answer, right? So students coming to me and say, if I start my assignment this much, would I be able to finish it? You can finish your assignment anytime, right? So that's not the point. The point is whether you understood.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:50]: We all have a life, we all have issues, and we all have things to balance. So giving yourself time to go through the assignment, you know, while you in a period of time will help you benefit from it more than you do it in one shot.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:21:06]: Chris, I want to add one more thing. Being resistant to feedback or not accepting feedback when it's provided. The spirit of feedback is intended to help you grow and develop. And I've realized something that I'm working on as a faculty member is I realize when students are resistant to feedback, sometimes I'm less likely to give it, which doesn't help them. And so it's something that I'm working on as a teacher of, for, for when I'm giving feedback and there's resistance, of trying to explore that resistance a little bit more with that student to try to help them understand that it's intended to help them. So I would say being resistant to feedback is also just a real— if feedback doesn't tell you that you're bad or that you're not smart, it's really intended to help you And that made me think of another thing, Chris, too, that this—

Shelby Newport [00:22:08]: I'm terrible with these kind of phrases, but what's the see the forest for the trees, trees for the forest, right? Like, think of, to Mohamed's point, like, we scaffold and build the curriculum. And so in this kind of starting late or thinking about each of your classes as separate trees, you're not seeing the whole forest of this this thing that we have designed as curriculum to build on each part of it. And so like, oh, good job, I'm done with marketing class. Well, like, that's going to come back. And there's elements where we want you to build upon each of those and bring in knowledge and projects and the feedback, to Amy's point, feedback that you may have gotten in the first year into your second-year classes, into that thesis project. They're going to build on each other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:59]: And so keeping that in mind, Amy, earlier you talked about mentorship, and if a student wants a faculty member to eventually serve as a mentor, what can they do to develop that relationship naturally over time?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:23:23]: Chris, I apologize, but I got distracted by the chat box, so can you repeat the question?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:28]: Sure thing. Now, earlier you talked about some faculty becoming mentors. If a student wants a faculty member to eventually serve as a mentor, what can they do to develop that relationship naturally over time?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:23:43]: I think just having conversations with the faculty regarding any of the work or content that's being developed, you know, attending office hours, asking the faculty member to share their story. You know, I'm curious, how did you get where you're at. What do you like most about your position? You know, what are some challenges that you're experiencing? And just having conversations. Going back to something Mohamed said too, like talking to faculty like outside of the classroom. So if there's club activities, those different types of things, or seeing them at a university event, all of those things really help foster that relationship. Over time. And I think that is somewhat key, that the more that we talk over time and I get to know you and watch you grow and progress, mentoring might change a little bit depending on what your needs are. But those are some strategies.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:24:51]: So if I may add, I'm going to talk about an experience that I had just today. Because I have office hours today for students who are registering for my courses. And one student came to the office hours and said, Professor, in my company we have this issue, you know, we have agent people using agents to develop some code. So how do we verify whether these agents are correct in the way they enter, you know, they put code in our systems, right? And I said, how do you think you're going to solve this problem? And he proposed a solution, and I proposed another solution. Then we end up converging towards a hybrid solution that I thought would work better for in this case. So this conversation ended up us deciding on the spot that he has to do a master's thesis or do an independent study where he can develop the solution. So bringing the problems to faculty on the table is one way for you to connect with them immediately if they have a common interest to solving these issues.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:46]: Shelby, anything you wanted to add with that one? No. Okay.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:25:52]: I can, I can add one more thing because I can answer the question about the graduate assistantship, right? If the faculty has interest into this, solving this issue, they may have opportunities for you to connect through assistantships this way, right? Because now you're not only you solving this issue in your own context, but also helping the faculty in their own research, right? And this is how you can connect with them through graduate assistantships, right? I personally get, what, 10, 20 requests a week now about people wanting to become my research assistants, right? And over the years, I accepted only a few, the ones that were actually pointing out to the issues that I thought that I was trying to solve myself. So, and this takes time, by the way. You cannot just pick those. You have to have that natural connection through, you know, that faculty because you work in this area, they work in this area. This is number one. Number two, they are both working on the same the same problem, and this is the best organic way for you to become an assistant for that faculty. So find the right faculty that share your same interest, and this is key for you to become a research assistant in their labs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:03]: Yeah, and one of the things that I'll add there is that just in general, the way that the University of Michigan Flint works in regards to graduate assistantships is We post them usually in the spring. We are actually just posting them now for the fall. So if you go to the Office of Graduate Programs website, you can go on to the Office of Graduate Programs website, click on paying for graduate school, and in there, there's a link to information about graduate research assistantships. Those are the assistantships that we have available here. They are mostly part-time assistantships, meaning that most students are working about 6 or 7 hours a week, and you apply for them like any job. Now, you only want to apply for things that you're qualified for. So I always put that out there. You don't want to apply if, if there's a physical therapy position with Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:00]: Yorke and you're a computer science student and it says it's only for physical therapy students, Don't apply for the physical therapy position because that's just going to upset Dr. Yorke because she's going to have to go through everybody. So that being said, take your time. Usually there's about— usually we have about 50 to 60 assistantships per year. So it's not a lot. But they are going— the faculty are going to be reviewing anybody that applies and looking for the best fit. So it's, you know, they are going to be looking at everybody and they might interview you. It's like a job.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:38]: So you're going to be interviewing or you're going to be— they're going to consider you, they're going to reach out, they're going to ask questions, and then they'll try to identify who's best. If you don't get selected when you first come in, that doesn't mean you can't apply in the future. And you can always do that. And sometimes that comes down to what all 3 of our panelists have already said about getting to know your faculty. I tell students all the time that when you're in class, there's going to be times where your professor is going to say, I have an opportunity. I have a— I have something that I need some people to do. Who wants to do it? Put your hand up. Be that first one to get your hand up and volunteer.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:19]: Yes, it's going to take some time, but you're going to build a relationship. That relationship could lead to a graduate assistantship or some other opportunity that you never knew was coming. So that being said, even if you don't get something coming in the door, keep looking, keep applying, keep, you know, keep building those relationships because it's going to help in the future.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:29:41]: Persistence pays off. Like, being persistent matters because sometimes the first opportunity, maybe there was already somebody set for that position, but another one comes up. And based on my interaction with you, I was impressed. And I thought you would be great also on this, and then I'm more likely to reach out to you. So don't, don't, don't take it personally if you don't get it. Be persistent in a very like professional way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:11]: Now, one question earlier, I think all 3 of you were talking about that students need to advocate for themselves, and if they're struggling, they should speak up. Because graduate school can be challenging, what should students do when they're struggling academically or personally rather than waiting until things become overwhelming?

Shelby Newport [00:30:37]: Using those university resources. I think it's easy as a graduate student to not think of yourself like embedded in, in what a college has, but remember, probably very similar to your undergraduate experience, there is a counseling and Accessibility Services Office, and that office provides free counseling to you as a student in both online and face-to-face ways. They are really good at their job, and they are really well suited to work with students of all ages. And so that is, again, one of those benefits that is yours because you are a University of Michigan student. And so remembering that those resources exist and finding them when you know, that moment of struggle comes. Same with the library and all that the University of Michigan offers, tutoring services. And, you know, my program is inside the Rackham Graduate College, which has Ann Arbor-based resources. And so pulling on those resources is really A useful thing and a sign of a successful student.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:31:50]: And I would prefer, like, the instant you have an inkling, like, maybe I should tell my faculty this, tell them this. And it might not— like, you might not need anything from me, but, you know, like, I want to let you know that my grandfather has been placed on hospice. And so if I get a phone call, like, I might have to miss class. Like, that is the instant you know that something is going on and it may impact your ability to attend, participate in class, or complete an assessment on time. Let the faculty know. And if you— if something happened unexpectedly, the sooner that you say something, the better it is. And so I think being open and share what you want to share. Don't—

Shelby Newport [00:32:37]: if you—

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:32:37]: you don't have to share Details, but if you say, I'm having a family emergency, I'm gonna be out this week, my plan is that I'm gonna connect with these 2 of my classmates. If I need to meet with you, I'll email you separately. Like, that shows a very proactive student who's already trying to solve the problem, because by telling me, you're not asking me to solve the problem. You're just simply communicating to let me know ahead of time that you're something is happening in your life that really prevents you from being the kind of learner that you want to be, and sooner is better than later.

Shelby Newport [00:33:21]: Yeah, question in the chat about access to the libraries in Ann Arbor. Yes, and Dearborn too, right? You have— you can check out books using your Mcard with all of those things physically and also utilize those. Parking is sort of a challenge, but there's also city street parking in a variety of places. So yeah, unfortunately, our parking passes don't have reciprocal access. But I have gone to Ann Arbor campus to work, you know, use the Wi-Fi, and that's great. Lots of resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:00]: Mohamed, were you unmuting to say something or no?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:34:03]: Yeah, I was about to say that, and this is me speaking of my own experience with students, right? Just to also, you know, augment what Amy was saying, letting us know what you go through can help us also not— I mean, usually students think that these problems are obstacles and faculty will just give extensions to kind of— but this is not how we perceive something. You know, we perceive them as opportunities for us to also even connect more, right? I've had students who came asking for extensions. I said, no, no, no, no, no. If you are going through this, this is how we should solve this issue, right? Because there are different ways that we can address problems that you are going through, right? Whether it's in your learning curve, whether it's a family urgency, whatever it is, there are multiple ways for us to walk through this. So let us know the situation as soon as possible so that we can walk through the proper way of solving it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:57]: How much should students be willing to step outside of their comfort zone and ask questions, participate, and seek opportunities? And kind of secondary to that is, what do you recommend for those that are scared of stepping out of their comfort zone to get into that place where they can become comfortable being I'm going to say in that— with that imposter feeling at first, because I know that we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome right after this with everybody that's on, and every student tends to fall into it at one point or another. So how do you deal with that as well?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:35:43]: So since I'm on mute, I'm probably going to start. So, and the imposter syndrome, at least in the context of computer science, comes from AI. And large language models being now available. And the first thing that I kind of trigger with the students is, are you able to be— to say that you're better than ChatGPT or whatever, right? Or Gemini, right? And this is how I kind of trigger that moment for them to think about how— and this is actually bringing a question that they all have in their minds. Would I be replaced? Am I replaceable? Would AI replace me in the future? Would this job exist or whatever? And I use that conversation to start advocating for how they should properly use AI and how they should also evaluate themselves and their learning curve within AI, right? Because if you are able to find yourself doing better than AI, then you definitely are valuable for industry, right? So those who misuse AI are out of the game. Those who don't use AI are out of the game. for sure. So how would you properly use AI? This is how we can trigger that conversation.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:36:49]: And this is how I can tell students to start self-assessing them, you know, self— do that self-assessment with AI to see how they can be better than AI by using AI. So, and I use this also to combat the imposter syndrome at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:02]: Any other thoughts, Shelby or Amy?

Shelby Newport [00:37:06]: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that Yeah. Getting yourself to a place where you are willing to be and able to be vulnerable in an uncomfortable topic or feeling like you are an imposter in this world is a really good indication that you're learning. That is where change happens. That is where growth happens. And So I mean, in— I don't know that I was great at it in the beginning of graduate school. And I was definitely using my earlier advice of like, when you look good, you feel good. Like, act the part. Like, dress for the job you want and not the job you have.

Shelby Newport [00:37:54]: Do that. Get yourself there and get yourself prepared for that. And then you move into those spaces. And it never goes away, I think, is also advice, right? That— and so to cultivate how do you feel and how do you recognize that uncomfortable moment where change is happening or growth is happening makes you a learner for life and a really valuable person in our— in any of our fields because you're thinking differently and you're willing. And so I feel that, like, a lot. And when you feel that feeling, that means change is happening and growth is happening. So it's an indicator rather than a barrier.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:38:42]: Yeah. And I would encourage instead of, like, using the language, like, fake it till you make it, like, try it till you triumph. Like, placing it that way. And if you I don't know if you have read or heard about Carol Dweck and like her idea of like fixed mindset versus flexible mindset, like even just doing a quick Google search and learning a little bit more about that. And I think that sometimes when we're learning something new, we come very fixed because we think that we're being judged on what we know and what we don't know. When in reality, like, you are here to grow. So you really want to embrace this more flexible mindset. Like, maybe it's just not yet.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:39:22]: I don't have it yet, but I'm going to keep working and practicing, and I'm going to keep getting better at that because repetitions matter. No matter what our profession is, the more opportunities we have to practice, the better we get at it.

Shelby Newport [00:39:37]: I'll also add another catchphrase sort of like that. If you can flip your mind to a place of I get to do this instead of I have to do this, You also might, you know, get yourself into that place where change can really happen, growth can happen. We get to do this work every day, and it's really, it's pretty amazing, and that's not lost on me, and with really amazing humans like you all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:05]: Now I see in the, in the chat there's some questions about where faculty put syllabi and things like that. Do you, the 3 of you, want to talk about how you do that in your courses?

Shelby Newport [00:40:16]: Yeah, so Canvas is our learning management system. If you likely have access, but you probably don't have shells open yet, you might have a community shell like we have in Arts Administration, a community shell that you're automatically in. And I do announcements and things like that no matter what class you're in. So you may have access to something like that. Otherwise, your syllabi are all going to come out on a class-by-class basis, and that usually happens just a couple days before the class begins. You could reach out to faculty, specific faculty, now if you want to get a schedule or get a sense of, you know, the overall scope. You have access to the curriculum of DBA program and MSC cybersecurity. Those programs are all online and the curriculum is there.

Shelby Newport [00:41:03]: That's going to tell you each of the class names and the course description that's available on the university catalog. But individual expectations and syllabi is going to come out with faculty on a semester-by-semester basis.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:41:19]: So I know like our students won't be able to access it to the day class starts, but like Shelby had offered, if you are just thinking ahead and you want to just email the faculty member, just say, I'm curious, you know, would you be willing to share it with me, or when might it be available? Just simply put a request. If I had a student today ask me for it, I would say it's not quite done yet, and I, as soon as I get it done, I will share it with you. So you can always ask. Just be prepared that you might not be able to get exactly what you want when you want it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:41:52]: Yeah, just to put this in more context, which I think this is shared between all of us, faculty typically, they would have to do some rounds of revisions to their courses right before the semester starts. This is how we do it. We always do this right before. We take the feedback that we get from the students. We take the new updates, whatever updates we have. We also get the feedback from the peers. If the course is being taught in multiple sections, we listen and we coordinate with other faculty. And all these activities, they happen right before semester starts.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:42:22]: So therefore, syllabi may not be ready by that time. However, if you're searching for general topics that will be taught in the class, that's easy. That we can answer in a second. We can say, oh, this is what we're going to be covering in the classroom. But if you ask about the mechanics and the distribution of grades or whatever, However, this will take time, and you will know this right before the semester starts.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:50]: Other questions? I see we're getting close to the end of our time, and I want to make sure that we answer all of your questions before I give them a— maybe a final question. Not seeing any others yet. Let me ask you this. If you could give every incoming graduate student one piece of advice about building relationships with faculty and succeeding in graduate school, what would it be?

Shelby Newport [00:43:21]: Just one is really hard, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:28]: You can give 2 if you want to give 2.

Shelby Newport [00:43:30]: We've touched on a lot of those overarching elements today already about connection and willingness But I think that if I haven't already said the word openness as it relates to willingness, my advice would be open to what might come. Yes, you've pursued this program that is a narrowing of your interests into something really specific. So you're going to hone in on that. But how can you be open to what might come about, whether it's a line of study or a research project or any of those things? They, you know, they happen and come about when you're open to what the universe might give you.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:44:22]: I'll start with something that my father used to tell me when I was younger. He was always telling me, Mohammed, if you're doing something and it turns out to be easy, you're probably doing the wrong thing. And that somehow turns out to be true. And that's true all over my career. So if you are working and you are in your school and you're struggling with something, you're probably on the path of learning. So use that struggle as an opportunity for you to improve yourself rather than an obstacle that would prevent you from doing it. So yes, you will find issues. Yes, you will find challenges.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:44:52]: But you're here for those— you're here to go through them. And this is what makes you proud of your degree in the future. Thank you.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:45:00]: Something that I commonly say to the students is have fun and learn a lot. And so like, just learning should be fun. Doesn't mean that it's not work, and you want to learn a lot. So I'll keep it very simple.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:16]: So we do have a question in the chat. Someone's asking your thoughts on if someone is transitioning back to graduate-level education after a long time away from school and going from a traditional learning environment to an online learning environment, what would you recommend to them?

Shelby Newport [00:45:39]: Yeah, I think that this is really common for a lot of graduate students, so you're not alone first, and the resources on campus are really good for online learning. I think we do this really well at UM-Flint. The Office of Online and Digital Education is a great place to start for kind of your own orientation to our systems. Canvas, I already mentioned, is going to be the hub for all the information— the syllabi, your grades, announcements. Some faculty use it a lot, some use it very little, but it will be that place where you can count on to see it all in one place. And so that should be bookmarked and something you check every day. And then And just like your face-to-face learning, you had time set aside in your life to go to that class. And so if your program is an asynchronous class and it's up to you to find those times, schedule those in.

Shelby Newport [00:46:38]: Make the time that you are going to be doing the work of that asynchronous class. That means it doesn't have a Zoom face-to-face or online meeting, but schedule it into your life. And this is the time that I I am going to be uncompromising about what else is going on because it's as if I'm in class. So get yourself into that kind of situation, and maybe that's going to a coffee shop or going to another place so that you ready yourself for that kind of learning and the concentration you need in those online asynchronous classes. And then with online synchronous classes, that's like what we're doing tonight, though tonight we're in what's called the webinar mode, and so we can't see you. Most of your online synchronous classes are going to be in a more open format where they're, you know, you can all be boxes on the screen and there's a little bit more action and interaction happening. You know, a faculty member may share their screen and they're showing a slide deck that will then become available for you to look through, and maybe it is kind of lecturing, but if there's prompts and there's questions and there's chat activity, you're engaged in those kind of things just like you would be if you were sitting in the class. And again, that same advice of readying your for learning in that online synchronous way.

Shelby Newport [00:48:00]: So some days you have to be in the car to do that. But most days, if you can find yourself that calm space that is dedicated to your learning, if it's in your house or wherever that might be, you know, gets you in the same kind of mindset that you were when you were walking into the classroom in a face-to-face way.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:48:22]: And again, don't be afraid to ask for help. So when I first started teaching, that's when I was— the first time I was like ever used a learning management system. And I, for so long, I would just try to figure things out myself before I would contact like the Office of Distance Education. So feel free. There's a 24-hour chat thing in there that you can ask somebody that, or you can contact the Office of Distance Education during normal working hours. It's pretty powerful. So like, don't be afraid to ask again. Like, don't, don't get frustrated trying to use the technology when we really want you to learn the content.

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:48:57]: The technology should be relatively easy to negotiate, and if it's not, ask for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:49:04]: Mohammed, I see you're unmuted. Did you want to say something?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:49:07]: Can you guys hear me? It's awesome. Yeah, so I cannot agree more with what Shelby and Amy were saying. I will try to also answer one question from Sonny, I think, about coming back to school after a while. I'll try to do this all together. I'll see how that works. So those who come back to school after a career, you're not a student. You are someone with a career coming back to school, and that career can dictate a lot of way— can contribute in so many ways to your new learning experience, right? Because we as faculty, we are also looking forward to listening to your experience, to learn back from what you have learned, what are the obstacles you faced in your career, right? And this can also enrich our conversations in the classroom. So don't be afraid of bringing all the challenges, all the issues you experienced, and also bring your expectations to the table, right? Say that this is what I have learned over the years.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:50:03]: Do you think that this would also be beneficial to me if I bring this up, right? Right? So, and I will explain to you that, I'll give you some examples. A lot of students, they bring their class projects from their work, from their careers. A lot of students, they use their thesis as a medium to solve issues in their careers. Some students, they use the assignments as mediums to develop solutions for their own problems. So all these opportunities, don't be afraid of asking faculty, can I do this this way? And they will be more than happy to guide you whether this is feasible One more thing that is specifically for online asynchronous students. If you are coming back to school and you're from industry, try to take classes synchronously more than asynchronously, right? Because, and I know this is based on my own experience, whether this applies to all the majors or not, I don't know. But I know that asynchronous students tend to have a way that they miscalibrate the effort. in the classroom.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:51:01]: Maybe students who are asynchronous— sorry, synchronous or in-person, they go to the lecture on a regular basis, so they discover whether they are struggling or not early on. But those who are asynchronous, they treat the class as on-demand, so they discover later that they are struggling, and they are 3 weeks through the semester, and now they have an assignment, and the professor has talked about this a long time ago, and they feel you know, stressed about coming back and asking those questions late, right? So therefore, if you are an asynchronous student, start early. And as Shelby was saying, put time so that you can not just learn, but also you discover whether you are in the right pace or not. You have to pace yourself. We cannot pace you because you're not in the classroom, right? So therefore, you have to pace yourself and you discover what is the appropriate pace for you and do this very early in the semester.

Shelby Newport [00:51:54]: Some of those asynchronous classes are only going to release information to you on a weekly basis. Some will release the whole thing, and then you really have to self-pace. But you'll be able to see that in the syllabus. You'll know what is expected on a week-by-week basis. Usually graduate— I mean, I don't know. I guess I shouldn't talk about all of them. But in online classes, things are structured over a one week, like week 1, week 2, week 3. And so you're thinking about it not necessarily as you may have in undergrad of like a Monday, Wednesday, but it's like weeks, week chunks of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:52:36]: Any final words for any of you that you want to leave the students with this evening?

Dr. Amy Yorke [00:52:42]: Tammy had just put in the chat box what was the biggest obstacle overall for her. And I would say for me, I was a master memorizer. And being a master memorizer got me through undergraduate, but it did not help me be able to apply the concepts I needed to apply. And so for me, I had to change the way that I was learning content. That was a huge obstacle for me for my transition from undergrad to graduate. So don't memorize, really try to understand and apply, differentiate.

Shelby Newport [00:53:15]: Yeah, and I think for me it was like recalibrating and, and re-understanding my definition of balance, which is still like a part of life now. And as life has different chapters, I still struggle with that. In graduate school, sometimes that felt like these really intense periods that I was like totally overwhelmed and didn't have time for anything else. Should it be this hard? And then other times was like, what? I think I'm supposed to be doing something right now. What am I supposed to be doing? And so And that came because I went directly from undergrad to graduate school. And so I was thinking that it was gonna be the same, and somehow it wasn't. And that the expectation of the kind of work and the intensity of work in different periods, I needed to recalibrate and redefine for myself. And I would just say that that's actually maybe my biggest obstacle in life, and that each chapter you change and figure out how that balance works for you?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:54:18]: When I, when I started my grad school, I always felt excited about going to university because I was meeting people who I always thought they're smarter than me, and this makes me really better. So I was measuring my progress by how much I learned every day, and I realized that university is the best place ever to learn because people are genuinely nice, they're smart, and they care about others. That's why they're in academia, not in industry, right? Because they're also, they care, right? And that's why I didn't want to leave this environment after finishing school, right? Because people are genuinely caring, you know? So use that and think about it that way, and you'll see how much you'll enjoy your grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:57]: Well, Dr. Yorke, Shelby, Dr. McCower, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your experience, your wisdom with all of us. and helping our students to make that transition into graduate school and get a better perspective from you as faculty members as they prepare to connect with their faculty members. And I wish you all the best.

Shelby Newport [00:55:21]: Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Thank you all for choosing UM-Flint. We're so lucky to have you in our, in our community of learners.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:28]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate journey. Thank you. on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

If you're considering graduate school—or searching for inspiration on how to thrive once you're there—the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dr. Bennie Harris, Chancellor of the University of South Carolina Upstate, to explore the transformative journey that advanced education offers. Their conversation is packed with wisdom, practical advice, and deeply personal stories that illuminate the many paths one might take through graduate school and beyond.

A central theme from the episode is that the graduate school journey is unique for everyone, but learning from the experiences of others can help smooth your own path. Dr. Bennie Harris shares how his initial pursuit of engineering was driven by practicality, but his true passion for education and empowering others ultimately shaped his career. Even after obtaining his undergraduate degree, Dr. Bennie Harris realized he wasn't finished learning. His return to academia began with an MBA—chosen strategically for its flexibility across education and the private sector—and culminated with a PhD focused on strategic service marketing.

Throughout the conversation, Dr. Bennie Harris emphasizes the importance of building relationships. He credits the people he met during his studies—professors, classmates, and mentors—for helping him grow intellectually and personally. These connections provided support, challenged his perspectives, and contributed to his ongoing success. Graduate school, he argues, shouldn't just be about credentials; it should be about becoming the best in your craft and using new knowledge to support and uplift the communities you serve.

Another powerful message is the value of adaptability and curiosity. Dr. Bennie Harris encourages listeners to approach each stage of their graduate journey with an "empty cup"—ready to learn, unlearn, and be challenged. He shares actionable tips for navigating the politics and expectations of graduate programs, including fostering transparent communication with advisors and embracing goal-setting with room for revision.

The episode wraps up with advice for those weighing graduate school: Don't just chase degrees for prestige—pursue programs that elevate your thinking and make a broader impact. Use graduate education as a means to innovate, collaborate, and give back.

Ready for a dose of motivation and real-world guidance? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and let the journeys of those who came before light your way. Your future self—and your community—will thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together as you are preparing yourself, For this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school, that is in graduate school, are going to go through the process a little bit differently. No one person's path is going to be exactly the same as another, but you can learn from others in what they found out in their own journey to help you in your individual journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to you to help you to be able to gain some tools for your tool belt.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:00:59]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: toolbox and allow for you to be able to learn from others that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, been successful, and found some things that have worked for them that could work for you. And today we've got another great guest, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here with us today. Dr. Bennie Harris is with us today, and Dr. Harris is the chancellor of the University of South Carolina Upstate campus. And I am— I got to hear him speak at a recent conference that I was at, and I was really excited to be able to have come and talk to you about the educational journey that he went on and some of the things that he's learned in his own journey through graduate school and beyond into the work that he does now in education. Dr. Harris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:01:45]: Thank you so much, Krista, for allowing me and inviting me. It's an honor to be here and talk about education. Education is really important to me. So thank you again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and spending some time with us today. And one of the things that I love doing as I start these opportunities to talk is to really Turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Mississippi State University. And when you were there, you were an engineering major, got that undergraduate degree in industrial engineering. And at some point after graduation, you had an inkling. You had an inkling that you weren't done. Take me back to that period of time where you were out in the workforce, you just— and you said to yourself, you know what, I'm not done. I need to go back to school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: What was going through your head?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:02:29]: I made a decision to go back to graduate school while I was an undergraduate. And actually, the way that happened was I had been an engineer. I was at co-op for a year. I had did another summer program at Mississippi Power and Light Company at co-op, and I'd come to learn enough about myself during this time in college to realize that engineering was not my passion. However, I had gone so far in and had invested so much time into it, it was not prudent to make a change. And so I did work as an industrial engineer for a brief time, but I immediately found a course back to higher education. I was going to get a master's degree in student personnel. Actually, I wanted to be a math teacher.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:03:09]: And Mississippi during my time, you know, you did say let's go back. And so we're going way back. And Mississippi during my time, educators were not paid much. And so growing up poor rural community, and it was more prudent for me to follow my intellectual skills of science and mathematics and pursue engineering and to get a pathway out of poverty. But along the way, I kind of found my passion. And my passion really was empowering other people, particularly the peers that I were around. So I got excited about that. I was going to change my major after my junior year to education.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:03:41]: I took all my records over to the College of Education, and the way they were structured, it was going to take me another 3 years to graduate. I had to go and do all these prereqs. I said, nope, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go ahead and stay focused and get my engineering degree. And so I came to a place where after I graduated, trying to figure out how to get back into higher education, A mentor of mine invited me back to be her graduate assistant. Before that took place, she took a job at Washington State University, and she then had opportunities available in her office. She was at the time the director of affirmative action special programs, and so she had a compliance coordinator. I was good at statistics and other types of technical skills, and so she thought that my skills aligned with the work, and so she offered me an opportunity.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:04:23]: So I went out to Washington State sight unseen. and became the best compliance and EEO coordinator I could be. I learned as much as I could about the law, about the Office of Federal Contract Compliance, the Office of Civil Rights, the Office of Equal Employment Opportunity, and you would have thought I was an expert. At least I presented myself that way. So that's kind of how I got on that tread. And when I got into that, I knew I wanted to get a master's degree. So Washington State paid for employees while I went to school, so I decided to get an MBA in strategic marketing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: So talk to me about that, because there's lots of— I know Washington State, and Washington State's a big institution, so you have an opportunity to go into a lot of different directions. You chose, like you said, to do the MBA. Talk to me about that decision. What was the reason for you that you decided that versus something else?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:05:10]: Well, what I came to realize while I was at Washington State University doing the work that I was doing, I was also was able to follow my passion around student empowerment. So I started a leadership conference called Black Male Orientation to Leadership Development where I was developing young men across the state of Washington, and it became a conference that was over Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and we had a few folks coming from California, and we ended up having about 600 young people to come up across those states to develop leadership. And so I was able to do that part of my passion. Our president was supportive of that, my boss was supportive of that. At that time I had promoted, etc., and I was becoming much more focused around the business of education. And so I didn't treat affirmative action or EEO or compliance like the regular compliance agenda of an institution. I approached it more as a partnership with our deans, with our colleges, And so what I realized is that higher education did not do a good job at marketing itself even then. It didn't do a great job at telling the story, did not do a great job at— and the word telling the story was not the word in terms that we used during that time, but really bringing people along and saying, here's the why.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:06:31]: So Washington State was under an Office of Federal Contract Compliance They had had an audit, they had failed that audit, and they had to recreate some of their policies. And they recreated because they just weren't following their own processes. So, so I went to the deans and I went to the vice president and said, what is it that you want to accomplish? Let's create policies that are legally viable and policies that accomplish that. So we would do a partner's accommodation. Where if you recruited someone in biochemistry who— and coming out to Pullman, Washington, it was not a metropolitan, so we had to get as much workforce as we can. Then if he or she had a partner and they needed a job, then if there was a position available within the institution, then that the institution needed— let's say that partner was in a faculty in criminal justice. Or something like that, then the Provost's Office will give 2 years of funding for that Criminal Justice Department to hire that faculty on a temp appointment, and then that person will be competitive for a permanent job in that particular college. So it increased our ability to elevate diversity at the institution, and it— instead of our search committees doing a workaround the search process, I became more of a partner.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:07:57]: That really helped me to understand that we need to be a lot more strategic in how we talk about our partnerships, how we talk about elevating. And I wanted to position myself if I wanted to go back into engineering at any point. So I said an MBA could do both. It could align with higher education and it could align with any future aspiration I potentially may have when I decide I want to make some money. So I'm still thinking about that too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:24]: Now, before I get into it, because I want to talk about these transitions that you're making, but I also know that a number of years after you got your MBA, you made a decision to keep going with that education, and you decided to get a doctorate degree. Talk to me about that and what made you decide that you wanted to jump back in after a few years. off of not being in education in that, in that regard?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:08:52]: I think that's what graduate school really offers. As you pivot and as you grow and mature and become more informed as to where your passions are and who you are and what your aspirations— and that changes. I'm one that believes that as you set goals, that you give yourself permission to edit those goals. And so annually I will look at my goals and my wife and I will look at goals and that banned affirmative action, etc., in admissions processes in California. And so kind of saw the writing on the wall, and I had— I did my project, a project in my MBA with Weyerhaeuser Corporation in Tacoma and total quality management. And I was looking to say, okay, I'm going to go back into industry and do total quality management. The president, Sam Smith, at the time, and my the Vice President for Institutional Advancement, Connie Kravis, had appealed to me to stay at the institution and to see if there was anything else across the institution that I wanted to do other than where I was, right? And so Connie was trying to recruit me into Institutional Advancement because I was working with her in my other capacity to help increase the diversity and the gender representation across her division in advancement. And that went exceptionally well.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:10:36]: We— people would say, well, we can't find them, we can't get them. And we've been extremely successful at Washington State in recruiting highly talented people to Pullman, Washington, in the Palouse. We had deans who were of color. We had a woman vice president for business affairs. We had a woman provost that came along. We had all of these executives of all diverse backgrounds. that were coming and attracted to Washington State, and it debunked the myth that nobody will come, that we can't get them, right? So she said, Bennie, I think you'll be a great fundraiser. And I'm like, you know what, I have no interest in being a great fundraiser.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:11:14]: I got to be very careful what I say because this is a live podcast. I have no interest. My image of being a fundraiser was Driving Miss Daisy, and I did not see myself pushing no old gray-haired women to the symphony to ask them for money. That was just not in my cup of tea. So she sent me to a case conference to learn about fundraising, and I went to this case conference at Dartmouth, this training, a week-long training. And they had all the— they introduced us to annual giving, planned giving, corporate and foundation relations, major gifts, principal gifts, all the different areas of institutional advancement, prospect research. And then I came back and talked to her executive team, and she said, if we offer you a job, what would it be? I said, if I did it, it would probably be corporate and foundation relations because I have an engineering background. I write relatively decently.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:12:06]: I think I can appeal and make a case for why industry should invest and foundations should invest into our institution. So she offered me a job on the spot to do that, but because I didn't have experience in this space, professional experience. I had volunteer experience, etc. I came in as an associate director for corporate and foundation relations, and then I, as I proved myself, I quickly promoted. Now I share that because what I was looking for at that time was a change. I was looking for a change, and I wasn't quite sure where I wanted to go, but I know I was young. I was recently married and I knew that I needed more income or I wanted more income. So I was thinking about going back to industry.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:12:51]: I even thought about going to law school. And I was looking at going across the country. My wife and I had— they'd only had our first child. And so I was like, I gotta get to a place where I can work and go to law school. And then I was going to do corporate law and litigation, those type of things. And it was Had to be January. I had done the— I had done my LSAT, had done a decent job on taking that. I had done Kaplan, all that kind of stuff.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:13:22]: I had interviewed, and not formally interviewed, but I had went to several law schools, met with deans, met with the people in the admissions committee. And in January of 1996, that desire was completely taken away from me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: Why?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:13:39]: I had zero desire— though, in January of 1997, right? I had zero desire to do law because it wasn't what my passion— I was motivated by money, but it wasn't what my passion was. So, um, I got a job offer in the summer because my wife wanted to go back to— we had had our first child, she wanted to be closer to Mississippi where her family was, and I had committed to do that for her after me being 7 years in the Pacific Northwest, she being 5 years there with me. We took a job at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and that's— it was there that I decided on a PhD because I was doing external affairs and advancement work to support their campaign. But what I recognized is that people did not appreciate what was happening in higher education, and we had legislators who were writing legislation that was anti-higher education, and they spent 4 or 5 years with us And how is it that we did not make them evangelists for what we do and our value? Their kids were— had degrees, they had degrees, yet they were writing legislation that said a 4-year degree in higher education was not necessary. And I'm saying necessary for whom? Everybody else? Your kids, but no one else, right? So, so that made me get my PhD. I was going to get it in strategic marketing to look at marketing higher education institutions, and UAB did not have a PhD program, so I had to get it through the graduate school. I did a joint program with UA and UAB that I did my dissertation, my research on service quality, looking at how do you elevate and assess quality and the value proposition for a service environment, something that you don't own a product. but you own the experience and you own the credential of that.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:15:30]: And so that's what influenced me to get my PhD. And as a result of that, I thought, okay, I'm gonna now be on a platform where I can do research, I can write, I can become an advocate for higher education, and I can help higher education institutions pivot how they tell their story, how they market themselves, and how they create alliance with this dedicated captive audience during these 4, 4 to 6 years that you have them. So when they graduate from us, they're going to go out and tell everybody how great we are and go straight into the legislators or into industry and be our biggest advocate. That was my vision for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:08]: Now, you went to 3 different types of institutions. And as you go from one type of institution to the next, from different levels into different types of colleges, schools, etc., You have to go through transitions. The transition from undergrad into your MBA, your MBA into your doctorate, and in between you're doing work and getting other experiences. But as you transition into those educational environments, there are different expectations. There are different perspectives from faculty. Your faculty are definitely, as I said, they are going to be expecting different things from you as an individual, and you have to figure out what those— both the written rules and the unwritten rules are as you're moving through those, those specific types of degrees. So talk to me about as you transitioned into your MBA, into your doctorate degree, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success before you got in and as you started the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout each of those individual degrees?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:17:19]: So one of the things— thank you, that's a great question. One of the things that was consistent through my whole experience, educational experience, is people. People were consistent, and how I work and engage people and the relationships I built. I have wonderful relationships still to this day from undergraduate faculty and staff and colleagues all the way through this. So I have folks all over the United States. and over the country— globe, rather— that Stefan Wagner, he's a professor at Zurich. I have Chi-Wei Lo. All these folks I met during my educational experience that I kept in touch with.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:18:00]: Jeevan Rago, executives. He was from India. So, and we still talk to this day, and we're talking 30-plus or longer, about 30-plus years, right? where you belong, being able to navigate that. I think at the podcast I talked about my mother teaching me to live with an empty cup, and having that empty cup in these relationships was very critical. Then going to the Pacific Northwest where the state was less than 2% African American, and Seattle was probably about 6% at the time, and the first African American I saw in Washington State in Pullman became my best friend, probably. So, so that mattered. But what it did for me was help me to challenge my own biases, helps me to challenge how I see things, helped me to have this empty cup, come in there with that where people can pour their authenticity into me, and for me to step away from my own biases, uh, that I brought to that conversation, to that encounter, became the thing that made me better, became the thing that, that, that allowed folks to invite me to the table, right? Those are things that I learned as a person maturing as a young man and going to professional session— a professional setting in my career. I'm starting to mature.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:19:44]: I'm starting to see life differently. I'm starting to see that my story doesn't corner the market on oppression, and there were other people who have oppressed stories. that they've overcame and that giving them respect and deference to that and to their victory out of those things or their culture out of those things really only empowered me and strengthened me and strengthened my voice in telling my story by embracing the legitimacy of theirs. Whether I think it's legitimate or not, to them it is legitimate and I learned to embrace that and not judge it. One of the best examples of that, I think her name was Beth friends, so I'm putting names out there. But she was the director of the Women's Center at Washington State University, and I had just come from Mississippi. Everything is formal— ladies and gentlemen, yes ma'am, no ma'am, all this kind of stuff. And so I did a speech for a Martin Luther King program, and I opened it, ladies and gentlemen.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:20:38]: After that speech, uh, I think Beth came up to me. I think this was Beth. And they— she said, I am offended by that. I said, what? What did I do? She said, I am no lady, and I don't need you to open doors for me. I don't need you to do this, and all this kind of stuff. Because there was a bias in my Southern culture is that women have certain roles. Now, I didn't think I discriminated against women, but she helped. When she and I sat down, she explained to me, said, Bennie, when you were born, you have— you were— I don't think we called it unconscious bias then.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:21:11]: You were given a Tonka truck and a blue shirt, and your sister was given a doll and a pink blanket. And we were setting the expectations around your role in society whether you realize it or not. So she educated me around that unconscious bias that I, as a man, may have, right? What does that have to do with me pivoting all these graduate experiences? Everything. Because I took that experience of having to deal with my advisors, my faculty at Washington State University in the MBA program, and was extremely successful there. When I came to the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and I had these advisors who had their own expertise, and none of them had necessarily had the expertise that I was looking to research, except I had an advisor from the College of Business. I had to help them to get their own biases out of the way as I try to pursue my PhD. So what I learned to do, and I tell folks that, young people that are all the time, that the best degree is a finished one. So I had to get out of my way, right? And, and, and so my doctoral thesis dissertation wasn't about trying to change the world, but how do I take this funnel and narrow it down and find this little piece that I'm going to research? And so when I talk to this advisor, he wants to see me this way, and I talked to this committee member, they want to see me this way.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:22:35]: So what I did from the very beginning, I will send a memo. To every last one, every committee, every meeting I had with any of my academic, my committee members, I was going to follow up with a memo. Thank you, Dr. Lewis, for a great conversation. Per our discussion, I would do X, Y, and Z. This aligns very well with what Dr. So-and-so told me, and I'm going to integrate that, and I will send you all a revised version. So what I was trying to do, what I was doing, I think, was taking away the politics, mitigating, not taking away, mitigating the politics of her PhD among your committee members and create accountability among themselves, among the committee, so that they wouldn't be sending me this way and they send me that way and I'm looking like a chicken with my neck cut off and I'm frustrated and I'm in the room crying.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:23:19]: I've got anxiety around that. I just made them a part of my council, part of my committee. I'm not a committee, but a part of my tribe. And that tribe was how do we move this particular PhD candidate, student first and then candidate, through this process in the most seamless way. So I completed my PhD working full-time. Actually, I just did a post about it this past Sunday, working full-time with children, with the wife who was working on her master's degree. I did it all, what has taken an average of 7 years. I did it in right at 4 years.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:23:56]: And I did it, and it was a very, very successful, positive one. I completed it, defended, and I had colleagues that were still struggling after— who were in my cohort, who were still struggling with their PhD until I stopped following them. So I don't know if they got it or not. I probably should go back and figure that out. But it had all to do with being able to Appreciate the culture that you're in. Appreciate the setting and the expectations of others. And how do those expectations align with my aspirations? And then bringing that through conversation with your advisor, with your committee members, having conversation with them more than just transactional conversations, but having conversation about their aspirations to bring them into your story and make them a part of what you aspire to do and what you are going to do. So they can say, I had a little part in what he became.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]: Now, each of your education opportunities that you took advantage of were a little bit different.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:07]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:07]: They were in different type of educational environments. They were at different types of institutions and at— and in different areas.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:15]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:15]: So talk to me a little bit about Now, I mean, you've completed your degrees, you've had those done for a while, you've continued to grow, and you've had other educational opportunities as well. But how do you feel that your graduate degrees helped prepare you for the role that you're in now and how you may be pulling from that on a daily basis?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:25:39]: Oh, if I If I was a fortune teller or soothsayer, I would say that I was able to see all of this in the future, but I did not. And what all of this means is there is so much value into an educational leader understanding P&L, understanding budgets and finance. That's everything we do. Every decision is made around, do we have the money for it? Can we afford it? What are the revenues that are coming to this institution? from the state, from the federal government. Is that revenue pivot? How do we put some of these projects that were on soft money onto some of the recurring dollars? How do we create ROIs for new program ideas? How do we— all of that you do not want. It is so powerful and empowering to be able to lead an organization, understand the finance behind it. That was my MBA program, right? It was so empowering to be able to know how do I negotiate all the noise of what's in higher education. There was a time when we can count the number of MBA programs in our region.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:26:44]: Now there's so plethora that you can't count it. So how do I amplify USC Upstate in such a way that our program is seen and heard among the many, many, many programs that are out there? Hence my PhD And my emphasis in service marketing, strategic service marketing at University of Alabama. So that PhD helped me to look at my institution as a regional public university and say, how do I differentiate our institution from the others? That's one of the things that led me into having a podcast and a podcast. I'm focusing exclusively on leadership. And I'm bringing them to the table, folks like CEOs from, from industry, nonprofits, educational, talking about USC Upstate. Then I have those podcast conversations transcribed and put into the business journal throughout the state of South Carolina. And so people are reading that. So I get calls from Charleston, I get calls from Columbia, I get calls from all over the state of South Carolina saying, I didn't know USC Upstate was doing that.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:27:54]: Or saying, how can I get on that podcast? I never imagined that to be those type of ancillary benefits, but I did know that I needed to get my message out. I did know that I need to amplify our voice as an institution and say, look and see what we're doing. I write monthly op-eds around education, around the changes that are taking place, around the value of education, around first-generation students every month. and the local paper, which has a far-reaching— the Post and Courier has a far-reaching regional arm. So people are beginning to see— I believe my role as a higher education leader in today's market is to not just impact my regional market and my local market, but also impact how people see us nationally and see the value of education nationally. The value of education It's so critical, and what I am so committed to as an educational leader, passionate about what I do, is that we, we do not dumb down our intellectual capacity as a country, that we don't move everything away from innovation and from research and from— even though we're not a research university, but that is, that's what gave, that is what gave us our competitive advantage, that we invite intellectual knowledge to the table wherever it comes from, globally, That's what happened in World War II. That's what happened in all— it wasn't just our intelligence that made us competitive. It was that of Jewish people, it was that of other scientists, etc., all around the globe, right? So I'm very leery when we swing too far saying technical colleges are all what we need.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:29:38]: We need to make sure people can do forklifts and have— can have a be able to drive trucks, etc., etc., knowing that within a couple years those trucks are going to be driving themselves remotely. And so we have now educated a complete workforce on driving trucks and we have displaced that workforce. Much of what probably happened in Flint and many other places in, in your region around automation, etc. So we tool people for these skills and then we develop technology that make those skills irrelevant. That's where education and higher education has to step in and make sure we are seen and say our voice is more than just that. And then we have to make sure that we don't see us ourselves as not knowing how to deal with people and culture and humanity and listening and communication. All those humanities are so critical to making us a civilization. And that's what I think graduate school— let me take it back to where we started.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:30:37]: That's where I think graduate education is so critical. is because it elevates our awakening to say, what else should we be thinking about? Who else should we become? And how do we continue to learn at a higher and higher and higher level so that we can maximize our society in the very best way possible?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:58]: Now, as you think back to your graduate education and what you've gone through in your past, and you think about others that are thinking about going to graduate school themselves, What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:31:18]: Um, there are a whole bunch of degrees just to have them. Like, I just want to be a doctor. So, um, and I caution you from absorbing a lot of debt just to be okay. Um, you know, if you need to, if you need that for your ego, then that's okay. But I think it's so much more powerful to take it and do what it was designed to do. How do we elevate the thinking of that experience? How do we elevate that space with that particular degree? So a lot of degrees, things that we used to do just to get the certification in, well, we did it because we wanted How do I make this community that I work in better with this particular graduate degree and graduate knowledge? And it happens, and it makes a difference. It causes you to think differently. It causes you to engage differently.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:32:40]: And that's what people have to understand. When you think about when you go into a graduate degree program, you're going to have peers that are in there with you who are looking for something that makes them better. not just make me a better person, but intellectually more competitive. I want to learn more. I want to increase my curiosity, which when you increase curiosity, increase learning, what that does, it innovates, creates innovation, and it makes society very better, much better. So I think graduate degrees should be looked at or could be looked at as less of a transactional credential to get you that next paycheck or next pay bump and more of one that's really, really making society better and making this environment, this organization, this job, all those things better. So whether you get your graduate degree in computer science and data analytics or whether you get your graduate degree in music, you're becoming the best at your craft and we don't want society to lose that. We do not want young people to be okay being mediocre.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:33:52]: And we want people to go through a graduate program that is developed and coached by intellectuals so that you can know what this— how to use this knowledge that you are acquiring, how to make it even more effective, how to make it smarter, those things. So it's an and. You're going to get it to continue to improve yourself professionally, get a better job, all of those, and use it to improve folks and people around you. I'm not saying go and say, I got a graduate degree, so I'm better. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that a graduate education should equip you to see things differently and to see where you can improve those things and where you can contribute, to see how you can have different type of conversations with people, to bring them together, to get that training intellectually, to have more understanding about culture and about experiences so that I can come better prepared with an empty cup to receive that, what I've learned.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:58]: Well, Dr. Harris, you mentioned just a little bit ago that you have a podcast called Below the Line, and I'm sure that that's one of the best ways for people to get a hold of you. But tell me a little bit more about, or tell us about a little bit more about Below the Line. And where people can find it if they want to learn more.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:35:16]: Well, below the line really is really what we're talking about when we, when we lead, when we make decisions. Oftentimes, and I, I coined this term, but I can't take complete ownership of it because I heard it initially from a previous president that I served under, and he was a conflict manager. He did conflict management. And so part of what we were learning is when you do fundraising, for example, and I come and ask somebody to make a commitment to this institution and they have something to say, well, yeah, I'll do that. And it's, it is, it's minuscule in comparison to their capacity. When you talk to them more, you start learning what's really below that conversation. What is really, what are they really passionate about? They could have been had pain associated. Their son got kicked out of school, at that same school that you're asking them to give money for.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:36:14]: That's keeping them from making that bigger gift. So that was the context which I kind of came to appreciate that term below the line. I added leading. How do we lead? When I come to an organization and I have this great vision and it's not moving the way I think it should move, what's going on? Well, people could have PTSD from prior relationships, from a prior chancellor, from prior experiences. So I got to get below the line so that I can get them to make these types of decisions. So the whole thing is, how do you lead when you don't know what the issues are that's keeping your team from moving forward? That's what Below the Line is all about. And you can listen to that on— it's on Spotify, it's on YouTube, just Below the Line, Chancellor Bennie Lee Harris or Bennie Harris. or Below the Line USC Upstate, and it should pop up on a number of, uh, uh, venues, whatever they call it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:09]: Well, Dr. Harris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today, for your— for you sharing your own background. And I am— I've definitely listened to a few of the episodes already in Below the Line. They're very powerful episodes, and you have some really amazing guests on there. So as you said, it What you're talking about does connect with what we're talking about here. So I highly encourage you to listen and to check it out for yourself. But Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:37]: Harris, thank you for being here, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Bennie Harris [00:37:41]: Thank you very much, Kristin. I appreciate your inviting me, and I love the conversation. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Choosing to attend graduate school is a big step, and with it comes the crucial question: how do the financial realities differ between master's programs and PhD programs? In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis dives into the complexities and key considerations surrounding the true costs and funding options for these advanced degrees.

One of the main takeaways from the episode is that graduate school is far from one-size-fits-all—not only academically, but also financially. Dr. Christopher Lewis highlights how, while both paths are graduate degrees, master's and PhD programs usually come with distinct cost structures, funding models, and potential financial risks. For many, a master's degree might offer faster entry into a new career or desired promotion, but may require more out-of-pocket payment or student loans. Conversely, a funded PhD program can be more affordable in terms of direct costs (like tuition and fees) because of waivers, stipends, and assistantships, but often comes with its own opportunity costs—such as a longer period on a lower stipend instead of a full-time professional salary.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis gives actionable advice for anyone considering graduate school. He encourages listeners to compare not just the sticker price of programs, but the net price—the actual cost after factoring in scholarships, stipends, waivers, and assistantships. He explains why it's essential to ask programs for detailed, written offers outlining what funding is available and under what conditions. Calculating the debt-to-income ratio that would result from each program is another practical tip: ideally, your anticipated debt shouldn't exceed your first-year full-time salary in the field.

Other themes include the importance of researching career outcomes for each program, understanding the average debt and salaries of recent graduates, and looking closely at the adequacy of stipends—especially in expensive cities. Asking about long-term career support, job placement rates, and additional opportunities, such as conferences and internships, will ensure you make the best decision for your future.

Whether you're weighing a master's program with upfront costs or a funded PhD that requires several years of commitment, this episode is packed with strategies and questions every future grad student should consider.

Ready to make an informed decision about your graduate education? Don't miss this episode of "Victors in Grad School"—it's essential listening for anyone considering an advanced degree!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Today, we're going to be talking again about some of the financial realities of graduate programs. And I know we've been talking about this over the last few weeks, but we're going to be talking a little bit more in depth Today about some important questions that you should be thinking about, and especially how do the financial realities of master programs, master's programs, and PhD programs differ? Now, that may sound like a simple question, but it's actually one of the most important questions that you can ask when you're deciding what kind of graduate education makes sense for you. Graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all, and graduate school financing is definitely Not one size fits all. A master's degree and a PhD may both be graduate degrees, but they often come with very different cost structures, funding models, timelines, risks, and career outcomes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]: For some students, a master's degree may be the fastest and most practical way for you to be able to get to that career advancement that you want. For others, a funded PhD may be the better financial fit. Especially if you have goals that involve research, academia, or highly specialized professional work. But there isn't a universal answer. The right choice depends on your field, your career goals, your financial situation, your tolerance for debt, your existing loan history, your timeline, and your ultimate long-term plans. So today we're going to break down some of the most common differences in lending needs between master's and PhD students. I'm going to talk to you about tuition support, assistantships, stipends, loan limits, opportunity costs, private loan risks, and how to compare offers before you commit. As always, this episode is not individual financial advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: Students, students should confirm details with financial aid professionals, graduate program staff, and official federal student aid resources. But the goal today is to help you to ask better questions and to make more informed decisions. So let's get started. As I mentioned here already today, graduate school financing is not the same for every degree. As a prospective graduate student and as you are exploring graduate school, so many students are focusing on the program title, you know, the Master of Public Health, the PhD in Public Science, the PhD in Education. You know, whatever the title is, those titles matter. But they don't tell the whole financial story. 2 graduate programs can have similar career outcomes and very different costs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]: 2 programs in the same field can have very different levels of funding. A shorter program may cost more out of pocket than a longer program. A longer program may provide funding but delay full-time earnings. A prestigious program may offer a powerful network but require more borrowing. A funded program may reduce debt but require years of lower income while enrolled. That's why students need to look beyond admission and ask, what is the financial model of this program? In general, master's students and PhD students often face different financial realities. Master's students are more likely to pay tuition themselves unless they have scholarships, fellowships, employer support, or institutional aid. PhD students, especially those in funded doctoral programs, are more likely to receive tuition waivers, stipends, teaching assistantships, research assistantships, or fellowships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:03]: Of course, there are exceptions. Some master's programs offer generous funding. Some PhD programs are not fully funded. Some professional programs have high costs, but student but strong salaries upon graduation. So students should always ask their specific programs more about the situation in general. But as a general starting point, master's and PhD financing often work very differently. So let's begin with master's students. Master's programs are typically shorter than PhD programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:37]: Many full-time master's degrees take between 1 And half years and 3 years, 1.5 to 3 years to complete, depending on the field curriculum, internship requirements, clinical hours, and whether the student attends full-time or part-time. Because they're shorter, students sometimes assume that master's degrees are automatically more affordable, and sometimes they are, but not always. Many master's students pay tuition unless they receive institutional scholarships, fellowships, employer tuition assistance, or other support. And in many fields, master's students are less likely than PhD students to receive full tuition waivers or paid teaching and research assistantships. That means master's programs can require significant borrowing, even though it's shorter. Depending on the institution and the program, annual costs of a self-funded master's student can range anywhere from $20,000 to $80,000 or more, And that can include tuition, fees, books, supplies, housing, transportation, health insurance, and living expenses. Now, a master's degree can still be a very strong investment. It can lead to promotion, a licensure pathway, a career change, a salary increase, or entry into a profession that requires the credential.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:01]: But students need to understand the net cost, not just the sticker price. Not just the first semester bill, the cost to complete the degree. This is essentially— this is especially important as changes in federal lending may affect borrowing options for graduate students. With the elimination of Grad PLUS loans for new borrowers and the introduction of new federal borrowing caps, some students may find that federal loans don't cover the full cost of the higher-cost master's degree, and that can create a gap. And that gap may need to be covered through scholarships, employer benefits, savings, income payment plans, or private loans. So before enrolling in a master's program, students really need to be asking, what's the full cost of completing the degree? How much institutional aid is available for master's students? Are Are scholarships renewable or are they only for the first year? Are assistantships offered to master's students? Are paid internships, practicums, or graduate employment opportunities available? Will federal loans cover the cost of attendance? And if federal loans aren't enough, what other options are available? All of these questions help students understand whether the program is financially feasible and whether the expected outcome— Justifies the investment. So that's master's students. Now let's talk about PhD students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:33]: Doctoral programs, especially research-based PhD programs, often operate under a different financial model. Many funded PhD programs provide tuition waivers, stipends, teaching assistantships, research assistantships, or fellowships in these programs that allow for students to pay little or no tuition directly. They may also receive an annual stipend, which helps to cover living expenses. For students in funded doctoral programs, the typical annual cost to the student may be relatively low. In some cases, after accounting for stipend support, students may pay between $0 and $5,000 a year out of pocket, depending on local cost of living— Depending on local cost of living and personal expenses. That can make a funded PhD financially attractive compared with a self-funded master's program, but there's another side of the equation. PhD programs are long. A full-time PhD may take 4 to 7 years, depending on the discipline, research progress, dissertation requirements, advising, funding, and program structure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: So while a funded PhD may reduce the overall debt that a student has to take out for tuition, It may also— it may also mean spending more years on a graduate stipend rather than earning a full-time professional salary, and that creates what we call opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is the value of what you give up when you choose one path over another. For PhD students, that may include several years of full-time salary, employer retirement contributions, professional advancement, and other benefits that might have come from entering or staying in the workplace. That doesn't mean that a PhD is a bad choice. For many students, a PhD is exactly the right choice. It may be essential for their research, their goals, academic careers, scientific training, or specialized professional aspirations. But students should also consider the full picture. Prospective PhD students really need to be asking, is the degree funding guaranteed? And if it is, how many years is it guaranteed for? Does it include tuition, fees, health insurance, a stipend? Is summer funding included? What work obligations are attached to the funding? Will you as a student be expected to teach or conduct research? Can the stipend be negotiated? Are there additional fellowship opportunities? And what happens if you need more time to finish? A funded PhD can reduce borrowing, but students still need to evaluate stipend adequacy, time-to-degree completion rates, and long-term career outcomes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:18]: So now that you've learned a little bit about both the master's and the PhD, let's compare these 2 paths a little bit more directly. A funded PhD and a self-funded master's program may lead to related careers, but the financial experience can look very different. For a funded PhD, the annual cost to the student may be— the annual cost to you may be low, especially if tuition is waived and a stipend is provided. Federal loan need may be low as well. The risk of reaching Federal lifetime borrowing caps may also be lower, especially if you enter the program with little or no federal debt. Private loan risk is at— is usually lower for funded PhD programs because tuition is often covered and borrowing may be limited due to living expenses or personal needs. A self-funded master's program can look very different. Annual costs may range from $20,000 to $80,000 or more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: While federal loan need may be high depending on the total program cost and the student's existing debt, there may be greater risk of reaching federal borrowing limits. And if federal loans don't cover the full cost, the student may need to consider private loans. That doesn't mean that a fully funded PhD is always the better financial choice. The master's program may take only 2 years and may lead to faster entry into the workforce. If the degree leads to strong salary growth, a promotion, or access to a high-demand field, it may produce strong returns despite the higher upfront cost. The PhD may take longer, which may delay full-time earnings, but if the student's goal requires doctoral training, or if this PhD leads to academic research or leadership roles that would otherwise be inaccessible, it may be the right investment. Ultimately, the point is that you cannot compare graduate programs by tuition alone. You have to compare cost, funding, time, debt, opportunity cost, completion likelihood, career outcome, and long-term fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:20]: So How should you evaluate these options? My first recommendation is simple: request funding offers in writing before committing. A written funding offer should clearly state what the program is offering and what conditions apply. Students often look for details such as tuition support, fees covered and not covered, stipend amounts, health insurance, duration of funding, renewal requirements, teaching, research, or service expectations, summer support, and what happens if you take longer than expected to complete the program. This is especially important for PhD students, but it also matters for master's students who receive scholarships, fellowships, or assistantships. So in the end, the key message is don't rely only on verbal assurances. Graduate school is too significant a commitment for vague funding details. Get the offer in writing, read it carefully, Ask questions, and keep a copy for your records. My second recommendation is to compare net price, not sticker price.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: Sticker price is the published cost. Net price is what you actually pay after grants, scholarships, fellowships, tuition waivers, assistantships, employer contributions, or any other type of gift aid that you receive. The distinction matters a lot. A private university with a high tuition rate may become more affordable if it provides generous scholarships. A public university may appear less expensive, but still require significant borrowing if aid is limited. A PhD program may list a high tuition rate, but if the tuition is fully waived, as a student, your actual cost may be much lower. So when you're comparing programs, you need to ask each program some of the following. You need to find out the total cost of attendance, the total grants and scholarships that are available, the total tuition waiver or assistance support that's available, the total out-of-cost expenses, the total expected borrowing, and the total expected debt at graduation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:23]: If you compare only tuition, you may make the wrong decision. Compare net price. That's the number that matters. My third recommendation is to calculate your expected debt-to-income ratio at graduation. A general guideline is that your Total graduate debt should not exceed your expected first-year salary in your chosen field. Now, it's not a perfect science or a rule. There are exceptions. Some fields have low starting salaries but strong growth.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:52]: Some students qualify for loan forgiveness. Some students have family support or savings. Some programs lead to careers with high long-term earnings. But as a starting point, this guideline can help you evaluate whether your debt will be manageable. For example, if you expect to earn $60,000 in your first year after graduation, taking on $60,000 in debt may be manageable depending on repayment options and living costs. Taking on $150,000 in debt for that same salary may create much more financial pressure. So in the end, you need to ask, what's the average debt level for graduates from the program? What are typical starting salaries? What do graduates earn after after 5 or 10 years? How quickly do graduates typically repay their loans? Are graduates entering public service fields that may qualify for public service loan forgiveness? Are salaries in the field stable or growing or highly variable? The goal is not to reduce the number of graduates in a graduate program based on a salary number. Graduate education can have intellectual, personal, and social value as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: But debt has to be repaid. So it is important to understand how expected earnings and expected debt fit together. My fourth recommendation is to look for programs that provide clear and transparent career outcomes. Before enrollment, you need to be asking what percentage of graduates are employed within 6 months or a year? What percentage of— are working in their intended field? Where do graduates typically work? What job titles do recent graduates hold? What percentage continue to doctoral or professional study? What are typical salaries? What internships Internships, practicums, research opportunities, or networking opportunities are available? And how does the program support career development? All of these questions and more are ones that are going to be really important because if a program cannot provide employment data, salary ranges, alumni examples, or career support, then you're going to need to make sure that you continue to ask more questions to get more answers if they don't have others that can answer that for you. My 5th and final recommendation is specifically for PhD students. Ask detailed questions about the stipend. A tuition waiver is important, but students still have to live. Rent, food, transportation, healthcare, professional conference travel, technology, books, childcare, and personal expenses all matter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:25]: A stipend that looks reasonable in one city may be very difficult to live on in another. So prospective PhD students should definitely be asking, what's the annual stipend? Is it guaranteed? Is it paid over 9 months or 12 months? Is summer funding available? And are fees covered? Is health insurance included? Are students allowed to work outside the program? Does the department provide conference or research travel support? How does the stipend compare with living cost expenses? Are there internal or external fellowships students commonly receive? And can the stipend be negotiated? The last question may feel uncomfortable, but it's worth asking respectfully, especially if you have competing offers. Even a modest stipend increase can make a meaningful difference over 4, 5, 6, or 7 years. A fully funded PhD is only truly sustainable if students can meet their basic living needs while making academic progress. So in closing today, master's programs and PhD programs can both be excellent investments, but they're often very different investments. Master's programs are usually shorter and may lead to a faster career advancement, but they may require more out-of-pocket tuition, and more borrowing. PhD programs are often longer and may delay full-time earnings, but funded programs may provide tuition waivers, stipends, or even lower debt. Neither option is automatically better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:53]: The right choice depends on your goals, your field, your finances, your borrowing history, your timeline, and your comfort with risk. Before you commit, request written funding detail, compare the net price, estimate your debt to income ratio, review career outcomes, ask about completion rates, consider opportunity cost, and be honest with yourself and with what you need from the degree. Graduate school can be a powerful step forward, but the goal is not simply to get admitted. The goal is to choose a program that you can complete, afford, and use to move confidently toward your future. That's all for today's episode of Victors in Grad School. Thanks for listening. Keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and Keep moving toward your future. The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time Thank you for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering pursuing graduate school on a part-time basis, or are you already balancing your studies with work, family, or other responsibilities? This week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, delivers a can't-miss financial primer for anyone navigating the evolving world of graduate student loans and part-time enrollment.

In this informative episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis tackles a subject that's often overlooked: how recent changes to federal student lending will impact part-time graduate students. With the flexibility that part-time programs offer—allowing students to maintain employment, care for loved ones, and juggle personal commitments—it's no wonder more learners are considering this path. But, as Dr. Christopher Lewis points out, the new lending rules require careful, proactive planning to ensure your academic goals remain within reach.

Key Themes from the Episode:

1. Loan Proration and Enrollment Intensity: Dr. Christopher Lewis clearly explains the concept of loan proration—the idea that if you're enrolled less than full-time, your federal student loan eligibility is adjusted downward, sometimes significantly. He stresses the importance of understanding your institution's definition of full-time, as it directly affects your financial aid.

2. Strategic Financial Planning: Part-time study can still be possible, but Dr. Christopher Lewis encourages listeners to ask detailed questions about how their course load will affect both their tuition bills and their borrowing eligibility. Gaps in funding might need to be filled with personal savings, employer tuition assistance, scholarships, or payment plans.

3. Employer Tuition Assistance & Program Comparison: One actionable tip is to leverage employer-sponsored tuition reimbursement, which can contribute significantly to covering costs over multiple years. He also urges students to compare the long-term costs and benefits of part-time versus full-time enrollment, including time-to-degree and access to career advancements.

4. Proactive Questioning & Planning: Dr. Christopher Lewis empowers students to treat their course schedule as a key part of their financial plan and not just an academic decision. By planning ahead and understanding all policies, students can minimize surprises and maximize their investment in education.

If you're a current or prospective part-time graduate student—or support someone who is—this episode is packed with practical advice and critical insights. Don't miss out on this expert financial guidance tailored for part-time learners. Tune in to the full conversation on "Victors in Grad School" today, and set yourself up for success in your grad school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And this week, I'm going to be talking to you again, and we're going to be talking more about finances, about things that are going to be important as you're making those decisions for your future. Today, we're going to be continuing to talk about the things that you should know and that you should focus on, that you should focus on, especially if you are part of a group of graduate students who are incredibly common, incredibly motivated, and sometimes overlooked in conversations about graduate school financing. So today we're going to be talking specifically about being a part-time graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: For many students, part-time graduate study is not just a preference, it's what makes graduate school possible. Part-time enrollment allows students to keep working, care for children or family members, maintain health insurance through an employer, manage financial responsibilities, and pursue a degree without stepping away completely from their personal or professional lives. For working professionals, especially part-time graduate programs can be practical and powerful paths forward. But upcoming changes— But the new changes in federal student lending could affect how you as a part-time student finance your degree? Because you see that under the new federal lending rules, students who enroll less than full-time are going to have to have their annual federal loan eligibility reduced based on their enrollment level. So in plain language, what does that mean? It means that if you take fewer courses, that may also mean that you're going to be able to borrow less in federal loans. So that doesn't mean that part-time graduate school is no longer possible. It absolutely can be. But it does mean that for those students that are going to go part-time, you need to plan carefully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: You have to ask direct questions and understand how your course load affects your financial aid. So in today's episode, we're going to be talking about loan pro— what loan proration means, how enrollment intensity works, why this matters, for part-time students and what strategies that part-time students can use to make part-time graduate education even more affordable. So let's jump in. So more and more students today are starting to look at graduate school through a part-time lens. Part-time graduate education plays an important part in expanding access to advanced degrees. Not every student can work full— can stop working and attend school full-time. Not every student can relocate, take on unpaid internships, or pause family responsibilities. Many graduate students are already professionals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:00]: They may be teachers, nurses, engineers, social workers, managers, public servants, nonprofit leaders, parents, caregivers, veterans, entrepreneurs. The list goes on and on. For these students, part-time enrollment can be the bridge between where they are now and where they want to go next. Part-time graduate program can allow students to apply what they are learning immediately into the workplace. It can reduce the need to leave a job. It can help students continue earning income while pursuing a credential. And it can also make graduate education feel more manageable when life is already full. And let's be honest, for many graduate students, life is very full.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: But part-time enrollment also changes the financial picture. Students may take longer to finish. They may pay fees, across many semesters. They may have different eligibility for scholarships, assistantships, or loans. And under the new federal lending rules, they now are going to have reduced federal loan eligibility if they're enrolled less than full-time. So part-time study can be a smart choice, but it needs to be a well-planned choice. So the key change that we're talking about right now is called loan proration. Under the new federal lending environment, annual federal loan limits for students enrolled less than full-time must be prorated based on the student's enrollment level related to the institution's definition of full-time enrollment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:29]: Now, that's a lot of language, so let's break it down. Proration basically means that your loan eligibility is adjusted proportionally. If you're enrolled at 100% of a full-time course load, you may be eligible for the full annual loan amount available under the rules of your program. But if you're enrolled at 50% of the full-time course load, your annual federal loan eligibility may be reduced to 50% of the annual loan limit. So for example, if a program defines full-time enrollment as 24 credit hours per year and a student enrolls in 12 credit hours per year, that student is enrolled at 50% intensity. Under loan proration, that student may be eligible for only 50% of the annual federal loan limit. Now, this matters because many students choose part-time enrollment specifically to make graduate school more manageable. But if a loan eligibility decreases along with enrollment, students may find that federal loans no longer cover the full cost of tuition and fees, even if they're taking fewer classes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:35]: That's the key point here. A lower course load may reduce your bill, but it may also reduce your borrowing eligibility. And as a student, you need to look at both sides of that equation. So I mentioned enrollment intensity. To better understand loan proration, students need to also understand enrollment intensity. Enrollment intensity refers to the number of credit hours a student takes during an academic term or an academic year compared with the number of credits the institution considers full-time. In many programs, enrollment categories look something like full-time, meaning 12 or more credit hours per semester, whereas half-time means 6 to 11 credit hours per semester. Less than half-time may mean fewer than 6 credit hours per semester.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: But graduate programs can vary. Some graduate programs define full-time status differently. Some use academic year totals. Some use clinical hours, internship hours, practicum hours, or even research credits. Some graduate programs have very specific rules based on accreditation, program structure, or even institutional policy. That means that students cannot guess. If you're considering part-time enrollment, you need to ask your program and financial aid offices directly. You need to ask them, how does this program define full-time enrollment? How many credits are considered half-time? How many credits will I take each semester or academic year? What will my enrollment intensity be? How will my enrollment intensity affect my federal loan eligibility? And will reducing my course load create a funding gap? These questions are especially important for students who are planning around work schedules, family responsibilities, employer tuition reimbursement, or personal budgets.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:26]: The more precisely that you understand your enrollment intensity, the more accurately you can plan. So as you think about all of this, why does this matter? Well, at first glance, part-time enrollment may seem less expensive, and in some ways it is. If you take fewer classes in a semester, your tuition bill for that semester may be lower. That can help students— that can help you to manage your cash flow, keep working, or avoid taking on too much at once. But the financial picture is more complicated. If your federal loan eligibility is prorated based on your enrollment intensity, then taking fewer credits may also reduce the amount that you can borrow. This may create an ultimate gap between the costs of your program and the available federal aid. And that gap might have to be covered by your current income, savings, employer tuition assistance, scholarships, institutional grants, payment plans, family support, or even private loans.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: And the thing to keep in mind here is that each of those options have different implications. So as a part-time student, you have to think about the total time to degree. The part— a part-time program may have— may take 3, 4, or even more years to complete depending on the program. So additional semesters may mean additional fees, continued transportation costs, continued technology costs, and a longer period before you realize the career benefits of the degree. Again, that does not mean that part-time enrollment is a bad choice, For many students, it's exactly the right choice, but it does mean that you need to understand the full cost of the path that you are choosing, not just the cost of one semester. So one of the most important strategies that you as a part-time student should explore is employer tuition assistance. If you're working while pursuing a graduate degree, your employer may offer tuition reimbursement, tuition assistance, professional development funds, or educational benefits. And under Section 127 of the federal tax law, employers may provide up to $5,250 each year in tax-free educational assistance to eligible employees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]: That can make a meaningful difference, especially for part-time students spreading a degree across multiple years. So if you are employed, you need to start by asking your human resources office or supervisor if your organization offers. tuition reimbursement or tuition assistance and whether or not you are eligible for the benefit. By understanding that and understanding how that benefit works and how it is paid out and whether or not there are other, I'm going to say, strings attached to the use of the funds, all of those things are going to be things that you're going to need to look into. And it's definitely worth asking, even if you think that you've already— you already know the answer. Employer policies change and some organizations have benefits that employers simply do not even know about. And here's the important— here is an important planning point. If your employer offers that $5,250 per year that I mentioned, and your program is 3 years long, that could represent more than $15,000 of support over the course of the degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:46]: That's real money, very real, the kind of real money that demonstrates— that deserves a spreadsheet and maybe even a celebratory coffee. Another strategy to consider is to compare part-time and full-time enrollment options. Sometimes students assume that part-time is automatically more affordable because the semester bill is lower, but depending on loan eligibility, scholarships, assistantships, fees, time to degree, and career outcomes, that may not always be true. In some cases, a faster full-time program may be financially better because it allows you to complete the degree sooner, and access career advancement or higher earnings earlier. In other cases, part-time enrollment may be the better option because it allows you to keep earning income, maintaining benefits, and use employer tuition assistance. The point is not that one path is always better. The point is that as a student, you have to be able to compare the options. So in this type of scenario, you need to ask your program and better understand What the total cost of completing the degree is going to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: And what is the total cost in completing it as a part-time student? What is the total cost of completing it as a full-time student? And how long do full-time students take to complete? How long do part-time students take to complete? Are there assistantships or scholarships that are offered to part-time students versus full-time students? All of these different questions are going to help you to make a better decision that can be built off of solid information and not assumptions. A 3rd strategy to consider is to look at tuition payment plans. If reduced loan eligibility creates a gap, a payment plan may allow you to spread your balance over several months instead of paying one large amount at the beginning of a term. This can be especially helpful for working students who plan to use income Or employer reimbursement to cover part of the cost. A payment plan does not— doesn't reduce the cost of the degree, but it can make— it can allow for you to make payments more manageable and may reduce the need to borrow. So if you go and you ask the Student Accounts Office more about payment plans that are available, you can find out more about what they look like, how many payments are allowed over a semester, are there enrollment fees, are there service charges or interest fees? Do you take advantage of that? Can they be used alongside with financial aid? Can employer reimbursement be coordinated with a payment schedule? For students that are trying to avoid private loans, a payment plan can sometimes be an important piece of the puzzle. A 4th idea would be if you're still an undergraduate student and you're already thinking about graduate school, you should be thinking about what could come next. You could ask your institution whether your institution offers accelerated master's degree programs, combined bachelor's or master's programs or opportunities to count undergraduate coursework toward graduate credit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Those type of pathways can sometimes reduce the number of credits needed for not only the bachelor's degree, but also lower the number of credits that you need for a master's degree. You know, for example, some programs allow qualified undergraduates to begin graduate coursework during their senior year, and others allow certain courses to count both toward a bachelor's and a master's degree. And if available, these options can shorten the path to a graduate credential. So at your institution, you need to ask the right questions. You need to ask, are accelerated graduate pathways available? What programs are they available in? Are undergraduate courses counted toward graduate degrees? Can you start those graduate courses in your undergraduate degree? And I always encourage students to plan early and to ask those questions upfront. So if you're early on in a bachelor's degree, Ask those questions now and find out what you need to be taking to prepare yourself to be able to be eligible just for that. A final strategy to consider is that if you are planning to be a part-time student, you may want to think about adjusting your course load from term to term because ultimately life happens. Work demands increase, family responsibilities shift, health needs arise.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: Sometimes reducing your course load is the right decision. But under loan proration rules, reducing your course load may also reduce your loan eligibility. And that means course load changes should be treated as financial decisions as well as academic decisions. Before dropping from full-time to part-time or half-time to less than half-time, you really need to ask yourself some good questions, such as, how will this decision affect my federal loan eligibility? Will I still qualify for institutional aid? Will it affect scholarships, fellowships, or assistantships? Will it change my health insurance eligibility? Will it affect my housing, my visa status, or other benefits? Will it extend my time to degree? Will it increase my total cost? And can I cover any new funding gap that may occur because of this? Sometimes reducing credits is necessary, but it should only be done with a full understanding of the consequences. In the end, you need to think about it this way: course load It's not just an academic schedule, it's part of your financial plan. So in the end, part-time graduate education still remains to be an important and valuable pathway. For working adults, caregivers, and students balancing multiple responsibilities, part-time enrollment can make an advanced degree possible. But under the new federal lending rules, you need to understand how enrollment intensity affects your loan eligibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: Taking fewer credits may lower your immediate tuition bill, but it may also reduce the federal loans available to you. And that means planning early is essential. Before enrolling in any program, make sure that you understand your program's definition of full-time status, calculate your enrollment intensity, estimate your federal loan eligibility, identify any funding gaps, and then explore employer benefits, scholarships, payment plans, accelerated options, and other sources of support. Graduate school is a major investment, but with the right information, part-time students can make that investment wisely. And remember, asking financial questions is not a sign that you're unsure. It's a sign that you're prepared. That's all for today's episode of Victors in Grad School. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: Keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and keep moving toward your goals. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If You are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school in the coming years? If so, this week's episode of Victors in Grad School unpacks one of the most important (but often overlooked) aspects of your journey: how to plan, budget, and best position yourself financially amidst sweeping federal student lending changes that took effect after July 1, 2026. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode is a must-listen for anyone serious about making smart financial choices on the path toward an advanced degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis wastes no time highlighting why recent changes to federal lending policies should be front and center for every prospective grad student. He explains that, as of July 1, 2026, federal student loan programs for graduate and professional students have undergone major reforms affecting how much you can borrow, which loan options are available, and how to prepare for the true cost of your education. Gone is the safety net of the Graduate PLUS loan program—once a bridge for many students needing to close the gap between standard loans and sky-high tuition. Now, a new landscape of annual, aggregate, and lifetime borrowing caps means that meticulous financial planning is non-negotiable (03:41; 06:26).

But it's not just about losing borrowing options. Dr. Christopher Lewis breaks down critical distinctions between graduate and professional degree programs, each with different borrowing limits, and cautions that these definitions may evolve as legal battles play out (08:53). He encourages listeners to go beyond the "sticker price" and get a true net cost projection that includes tuition, supplies, housing, licensure fees, and the program's average completion time (09:45; 10:31).

The episode offers actionable tips: talk to your financial aid office, request full cost breakdowns, and explore institutional scholarships, assistantships, or employer tuition benefits before turning to private loans. If you do have to go the private route, Dr. Christopher Lewis provides a checklist of essential questions to ask lenders and emphasizes the risks compared to federal loans (14:35).

The main message? Financial preparedness is now more crucial than ever for graduate school success. Dr. Christopher Lewis invites you to be proactive, ask tough questions, and keep revisiting your plan as circumstances change (18:42). Graduate education is still a powerful investment—but you must approach it with eyes wide open and the right resources.

Ready to dive deeper and get the confidence you need to make informed financial decisions about grad school? Tune in to this timely episode of Victors in Grad School—your future self will thank you!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School, where every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together on helping you to find success in that journey that you're on toward graduate school yourself. And today, you and I are going to talk. We're going to delve a little bit more into some of the things that can help you, especially as it relates to some of the major federal student lending changes that have recently come about that may impact your ability to get financial aid now that we're past July 1st, 2026. Now, I know that the federal lending policy may not sound like the most exciting topic at first. It's not exactly the kind of thing people bring up at dinner parties. But if you are thinking about graduate school, this really matters. It matters because graduate education is a major investment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: It can help you advance in your career, increase your earning potential, enter a licensed profession, shift into a new field, or pursue work that is— intellectually and personally meaningful to you, but it also requires planning. And you see, starting on July 1st, 2026, federal student loan policies for graduate and professional students have substantially changed in ways that will impact your ability to borrow, budget, and to decide on ultimately which program that you're going to want to attend. So today what we're going to be doing is talking about what has changed, why it matters, and what you need to be thinking about to be able to prepare and to think differently about your education. Now, as always, this episode is meant to help you to ask better questions and inform decisions. For your own individual financial situation, though, I highly, highly encourage you that you need to be talking to your own university's financial aid office. your loan servicer, and official federal student aid resources. So with that being said, let's get started. So why does this matter? Why does it matter and why should you stay up to date? Well, as of July 1st, 2026, federal student aid policies related to graduate borrowing shifted significantly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:32]: These changes ultimately are affecting how much you can borrow, whether certain loan programs are available, And how you have to plan for the full cost of your education. That means that as a prospective graduate student, you need to ask more than, can I get admitted? You also have to ask, can you afford to complete the program? And that's an important distinction. Getting admitted to graduate school is exciting and it should be celebrated, but admission alone does not answer the financial questions. Students need to understand the total cost of attendance, Available funding, federal loan eligibility, potential gaps in that eligibility or gaps in the funding that's available to you, the repayment options that are available to you, and likely career outcomes as well. And this is especially true in a changing lending environment. If you're considering graduate school for 2026 or beyond, you have to make sure that you are using current information because policies can change, institution costs can change, loan limits can change, and repayment rules can change. So one of the first pieces of advice that I'd give you, it's simple. Stay up to date.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: You need to visit trusted resources. You need to talk with your financial aid professionals at your institutions. You need to ask questions of the programs directly and revisit your financial plan as you identify and learn new information. Because a graduate degree can still be a strong investment, but the investment needs to be understood clearly. So one of the major things that changed after July 1st, 2026, was the elimination of Graduate PLUS loans. For the past 20 years, the Graduate PLUS loan program, often called Grad PLUS, has been an important federal loan option for graduate and professional students. Grad PLUS loans allowed eligible students to borrow up to the full cost of attendance minus other financial aid received. For many students, that flexibility helped cover gaps between standard federal unsubsidized loans and the actual cost of graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:41]: Grad PLUS loans also came with federal loan features, including fixed interest rates, income-driven repayment eligibility, deferment options, and potential eligibility for public service loan forgiveness, depending on employment and repayment plan. For students in high-cost graduate or professional programs, Grad PLUS was often the bridge between available federal unsubsidized loans and the full cost of completing the degree. But beginning July 1st, 2026, that bridge is no longer available to new borrowers. So that is a significant change because without Grad PLUS, you may need to rely more heavily on institutional aid, assistantships, fellowships, employer tuition benefits, savings, income from work, payment plans, Or even private loans. And not all of those options are equally available to you. This doesn't mean that graduate school is out of reach, but it does mean that you're going to need to understand your financial plan earlier and in more detail. And you need to do that before you commit to a program. So before committing to a program, you need to be able to ask some additional questions like, will federal loans cover the cost of the program? And if not, What kind of options are available to you? Does your program offer scholarships, fellowships, or assistantships? Do you have employer tuition support that could be available to you, or, or are you going to need private loans? And if you do need private loans, what are the risks and the repayment terms that you need to understand? The end of Grad PLUS Loans means that you cannot assume that federal borrowing will automatically cover the cost of attendance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: Also, after July 1st, 2026, New borrowing limits have also been put in place. These limits include annual borrowing limits, aggregate limits, and an overall federal lifetime cap. For graduate students in nonprofessional degree programs, the annual federal loan limit will now be $20,500 per year with an aggregate graduate borrowing limit of $100,000. And if you are a student in a professional degree program, the annual limit is expected to be $50,000 a year with an aggregate limit of $200,000. There's also an overall federal lifetime borrowing cap of $257,500, which includes federal loans borrowed across undergraduate, graduate, and professional study. That lifetime cap is especially important. Why? Because graduate students don't start from zero if they already borrowed as undergraduates. If you borrowed federal loans in your bachelor's degree, those loans may now count toward your lifetime federal borrowing limit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:32]: That means that if you have less remaining federal eligibility for graduate school, that you— that means that you may have less remaining federal eligibility for graduate school than you initially expected. So before enrolling in graduate programs, you need to know what your current federal loan balance is and understand how much eligibility that you still have available to you. Another important piece of the new borrowing structure is the distinction between graduate program— graduate degree programs and professional degree programs. This matters because students in professional degree programs may qualify for higher federal borrowing limits. With the new structure, students in eligible professional degree programs, as I mentioned, may have access to the higher annual limit of $50,000 a year, or that $200,000 Aggregate. By contrast, the other graduate students in nonprofessional programs are limited to the $20,500 per year and $100,000 in aggregate. According to the guidance provided, professional degree programs may include fields such as law, medicine, osteopathic medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine, optometry, podiatry, pharmacy, chiropractic, theology, and clinical psychology. But here's the thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: Even since July 1st, 2026, there have been lawsuits that have gone to the courts that may change the definition of what a professional program is. So as I said earlier about staying up to date, you're going to have to continue to ask questions and to look further into whether your program is truly considered a professional program or a nonprofessional program as relates to your specific institution. And the only way to do that is to have a conversation with your financial aid office. So while this is still in flux, it is very important to know because depending on what type of program that you're going into and whether it is considered a professional or nonprofessional degree will ultimately impact the amount of money that you can take out every year. Another change is that in the new borrowing environment, you need full cost projections before you enroll. With all of these changes that have been put into place, you need to know the full cost of the program that you're interested in before you enroll. You need to know more than just the tuition for your first semester, more than just the tuition for your first year, or you instead need to know the full projected cost of completing The degree, and that includes your tuition, your fees, books, supplies, housing, food, transportation, health insurance, clinical and internship expenses, licensure costs, and any other program-specific costs that might be out there. But this also includes time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:31]: How much time does it typically take to finish a degree? Because if a program is listed as a 2-year degree, but students usually take longer than that, that's going to impact you financially. An extra semester, or a year can mean additional tuition fees, living expenses, etc. So before enrolling, you need to ask your institutions to provide you with that information. You need to get that better, fuller picture of the full cost projection for the program so that you can make informed decisions about ultimately what you're going to do in the end about this program and whether it's the right program for you. You see, one of the things that you might find is that a program that looks expensive upfront may cost more if it takes longer to complete, and a program with higher tuition may be more affordable if it offers strong institutional aid, a shorter timeline, or better career outcomes. The number you want is not just sticker price. The number you want is the net cost over the full program. Another thing that you really need to be thinking about in this new type of environment is that you need to be able to borrow only what you need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]: That may sound obvious, but it becomes even more important when annual and lifetime loan limits apply. Under stricter borrowing limits, every dollar matters. If you borrow more than necessary in one year, That borrowed amount may reduce the federal loan eligibility you have available later to you, even if you pay some of it back. So that means that you need to think strategically before accepting the full amount of the loan that's being offered to you. You've got to be able to ask yourself, do you really need all of this money? Can you reduce your expenses? Can you cover some costs through Income, savings, or employer support? Are there scholarships or assistantships that you might not have explored? And could a payment plan help you avoid borrowing as much upfront? All of these type of questions are going to help you to be able to make smart decisions because the goal is to borrow enough to support your success, but not more than you need. As you look at your program, you may find that federal loans don't cover the full cost of your program. And if that happens, don't immediately jump to the private private loans without exploring other options. First, start with your financial aid office.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:05]: You want to ask whether there are institutional scholarships, emergency grants, graduate assistantships, fellowships, tuition discounts, payment plans, or other forms of support that could be offered to you as an individual. You can talk to the program as well and ask whether students commonly work part-time, whether there are paid internships that are available, whether assistantships are open to students in your degree. And whether there are department-level awards. You can also talk to your employer if you're working, because some employers do offer tuition opportunities or educational benefits that you might not be aware of. You can ask whether tuition reimbursement or tuition assistance through your employer is available, and because in some cases those benefits are available and they may even be tax-free. Up to a certain amount. Ultimately, with all of this, there's no single right answer. The point is to evaluate your options before committing to debt.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:06]: I also want to make sure that you think about private loans. Private loans may be part of the financing, uh, may be part of the financing plan for some of you. Private loans may be part of the financing plan that you need to consider, but they should be. And if you are going to do that, you need to make sure that you're approaching them carefully. Private loans are not the same as federal loans. May have variable interest rates. They could require a credit check. They could require a cosigner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:35]: They may have fewer repayment protections. Because they may have fewer repayment protections, they may not offer income-driven repayment, and they're generally not eligible for public service loan forgiveness. So before taking out a private loan, you need to make sure that you're asking the lender good questions. About what, what is the interest rate? Is it fixed? Is it variable? If they're offering you a current rate, if and when does that potentially change? Are there origination fees? When does repayment begin? Does the interest accrue, or does the interest accrue while you're enrolled? Is there a cosigner required? Are there penalties for early repayment? What happens if you lose it? What happens if you lose your job or face financial difficulty? These are all really important questions to ask. And if you're considering private loans, you need to make sure that you're comparing lenders carefully and make sure that you understand the repayment terms before signing. So what does all this mean when you're choosing a graduate program? It means affordability and outcomes need to be part of the decision from the beginning. Of course, you should still consider academic quality, faculty expertise, curriculum, location, format, accreditation. Research opportunities, clinical training, and professional fit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]: Those things matter. But you should also ask, what is the total cost of completing this degree? How much aid is available? Is funding guaranteed? Will federal loans cover the full cost? And if not, what is the gap? Are you going to need a private loan? And how much debt do graduates in this program typically have? What are the typical starting salaries? What percentage of graduates work in their intended field? How long does it take for graduates to repay their loans? And how does this program help students achieve career outcomes? A strong program should be willing to help you understand those questions. If you can't get clear answers, that's information too. Graduate school is not only about whether a program wants you, it's also about the program. It's also whether the program is a good fit for your goals, your finances, And your future. So if you're considering graduate school after July 1st, 2026, let me give you a couple of things to consider. First, review your current federal loan balance. Know how much you've borrowed as an undergraduate and how much lifetime eligibility you may still have remaining.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:04]: Second, ask each program for a full cost projection. Don't rely on tuition. Ask for the total estimated cost to complete the degree. Third, confirm your program classification. Find out whether the program is considered a graduate degree program or a professional degree program for federal loan purposes. Fourth, ask about funding. Find out about scholarships, fellowships, assistantships, tuition waivers, employer partnerships, and payment plans that can all impact the amount that you have to pay. Fifth, estimate your borrowing need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:42]: You need to look at how much you may need to be able to borrow each year and in total. Sixth, evaluate repayment. Look at the salary data and the loan repayment estimates to understand what life after graduation may look like financially. Seventh, be cautious with private loans because if private loans are necessary, you need to compare terms carefully and understand what protections you do or don't have. And finally, you need to stay informed because federal lending rules and institutional policies can be complex and constantly changing. Ultimately, graduate school can still be a powerful and worthwhile investment. I am the biggest advocate for that and biggest advocate for you to continue that education to move toward your goals. Now that we have passed July 1st, 2026, you do need to approach graduate financing with even more care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:42]: The elimination of Grad PLUS loans, new annual and aggregate borrowing limits, and the federal lifetime loan cap all make early financial planning essential. The good news is that you don't have to navigate this alone. As you're looking at schools, as you're deciding on the school to go to, talk to financial aid officers, talk to your graduate program staff, talk to admission representatives, Talk to current students and alumni and ask for data, ask for projections, and ask for written funding details. And remember, asking financial questions does not make you difficult. It makes you prepared. The goal is not simply to enroll in graduate school. The goal is to choose a program that you can complete, afford, and use to move confidently toward your professional and personal goals. That's all for today's episode of Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:36]: Thanks for listening. And keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and moving toward the future. The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/grad. graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on the journey to graduate school is a significant milestone—one that promises career advancement, personal growth, and deeper expertise. But as Dr. Christopher Lewis shares in this insightful episode of "Victors in Grad School," understanding the financial commitment before you enroll is crucial to making informed and confident decisions about your education.

This episode shifts gears from the usual guest interviews, with Dr. Christopher Lewis taking center stage to break down the most important financial questions every prospective graduate student should ask. If you've been wondering how to budget for grad school, decode funding offers, or anticipate your future financial outcomes, this is the episode for you.

Looking Beyond Tuition

Too often, students focus solely on tuition, missing the full picture of graduate school's cost. Dr. Christopher Lewis highlights that it's essential to account for fees, housing, transportation, books, health insurance, professional licensing, and general living expenses. He encourages listeners to ask schools whether tuition is fixed or likely to increase during the program, and to understand how long students typically take to graduate—a longer timeline means greater costs.

Understanding Funding and Borrowing

Securing funding can be complex. Scholarships, fellowships, assistantships, tuition waivers, and loans all play roles in financing your education. Dr. Christopher Lewis stresses the need to clarify what funding is available, if it's guaranteed or competitive, and what exactly it covers. For those considering loans, he explains the importance of understanding federal versus private loan options, repayment obligations, and the impact on your future finances.

Focusing on Outcomes

Cost is only one piece of the puzzle. Dr. Christopher Lewis urges prospective students to explore program completion rates, time to graduate, and career outcomes for alumni. Ask about job placement percentages, typical earnings, and how graduates' salaries compare to their levels of debt. Your goal, as Dr. Christopher Lewis puts it, is not just to enter graduate school—but to afford it, complete it, and use your degree to move confidently toward your future goals.

Tune In to Empower Your Decision

If you're preparing for the leap into graduate school, this episode is packed with real-world wisdom and actionable advice. Listen now to empower your decision-making process and set yourself up for success in both your academic and financial life!

Ready to dig deeper? Listen to the full episode of "Victors in Grad School" with Dr. Christopher Lewis and get the guidance you need for your grad school journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited that you're back again this week. You know, every week I love having conversations with you that are always designed to help you to make informed, confident, and successful decisions about graduate education. And today we're going to be doing something a little bit different. A lot of times I have guests on the show, and today I'm going to be talking with you about something that's really important and something that's sometimes a little bit intimidating as well, which really goes into some of the graduate school decision-making process and the financial realities behind that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: You know, graduate school can be a really powerful investment. It can help you advance in your career, enter a new field, deepen your expertise. Increase your earning potential, or pursue work that's personally meaningful. But graduate school is also a major financial commitment. And here's the key point I want to emphasize today. The best time to understand the financial side of graduate school is before you enroll, not after orientation, not after the first tuition bill, not after the first tuition bill arrives, not after you have already taken out loans. Before. Today, I'm going to be talking to you about some questions, questions that you should be asking before you commit to a program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: And these questions can help you better understand the full cost of attendance, the funding opportunities that are available, the borrowing that you might need to consider, and the outcomes that you can reasonably expect after graduation. So let's get to it. First and foremost, what I want to talk about today is as you are looking at your education, and you're looking at institutions, you've got to look beyond tuition. So often when students think about the cost of graduate school, tuition is usually the first number that comes to mind. And that makes sense. Tuition is often a very large expense. But tuition is not the whole picture. You see, before enrolling in a graduate program, you want to understand the full cost of attendance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: That includes Tuition, yes, but it might also include fees, housing, transportation, books, technology, health insurance, professional licensing costs, lab fees, internship expenses, and even general living costs. Depending on the program, some of these additional costs can be really significant. For example, a program may require specialized software, clinical equipment, travel, to internship sites, licensure exams, background checks, or even conference participation. And those costs may not always be obvious when you're first reviewing a program website. Another important question is whether tuition is fixed or whether it will increase. A program that seems affordable in year 1 may become more expensive in year 2 or 3 if tuition and fees continue to rise. That doesn't mean that the program is not worth it, But it does mean that you should know what to expect. You should also know— you should also ask how long students typically take to complete their degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: If a program is advertised as a 2-year degree, but many students actually take 3 years to finish, that extra year can change the financial equation. It may mean more tuition, more fees, more living expenses, and more time before you can see the career benefits of the degree. So when you're talking with admissions representatives, program directors, or even financial aid staff, you should really consider asking some of these questions. First, what's the total cost of attendance for this program? Does the estimate include tuition, fees, books, housing, transportation, and health insurance? Are tuition rates fixed or can they increase every year? Are there program-specific fees, lab fees, clinical fees, or professional licensing expenses that are required? And how long do students in this program typically take to graduate? These might sound like basic questions, but they are truly foundational. They help you move from a vague sense of cost to a realistic financial plan. Once you have that understanding, you need to move to be able to understand funding before you commit. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about funding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:40]: Funding can look very different from program to program. Some graduate programs receive scholarships or fellowships. Some graduate students receive scholarships or fellowships. Some receive teaching or research assistantships. Some receive tuition waivers. Some receive stipends, others rely on loans, savings, employer support, or a combination of all of these. The important thing is to ask specific questions about what funding is available and whether that funding is guaranteed. That's a big one.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]: A student may receive funding in their first year but not the second, or funding may be competitive each year, or a scholarship may cover tuition but not fees. Or an assistantship may provide a stipend but require a certain number of work hours each week. You want to understand exactly what is being offered. If you receive a funding package, ask what it covers. Does it cover tuition? Does it cover fees? Does it include health insurance? Does it provide a living stipend? Does it cover summer terms? And how long does the support last? You should ask what happens if the funding runs out before you complete the degree. That question may feel uncomfortable, but it is much better to ask it before enrolling than to discover later that you need to find additional funding unexpectedly. Some additional questions to consider include, is funding guaranteed or competitive each year? How can I obtain a teaching assistantship, research assistantship, fellowship, or scholarship? If funding is guaranteed, What exactly does it cover? Does funding cover summer enrollment or summer living expenses? And what academic progress or work requirements do you have to keep to be able to keep the funding? And what happens if funding ends before you finish the program? These questions will help you understand not only the amount of funding available, but also the conditions attached to it. Once you get questions to those questions, It really becomes important that you then make wise decisions in regards to the borrowing that you feel that you need to do, because you want to be smart about borrowing, because borrowing is a part of the graduate school financing plan.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:59]: And that doesn't automatically mean that graduate school is a bad investment. Many students borrow for graduate education and go on to be able to achieve strong personal and professional outcomes, but borrowing should be intentional. Before taking out any loans, you really need to understand how much you may need to borrow each year and what your total debt may look like after graduation. It's also important to understand whether your program's costs may exceed federal borrowing limits. If federal loans are not enough to cover your costs, you may need to explore institutional aid employer support, assistantships, payment plans, personal savings, or even private loans. And each of those options come with different implications. One of the most important questions that you need to be asking is, what might your monthly payment look like after graduation? You see, sometimes students focus on whether they can borrow enough to attend, but the bigger question is whether the debt that they're going to accrue will be manageable after they finish. By working with your financial aid office and having intentional conversations with them, you can get a better estimate on the projected borrowing and replacement and repayment options.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:21]: When you're thinking about borrowing, there's a couple of other things that you need to be thinking about. You see, federal loans often include borrower protections such as deferment, forbearance, income-driven repayment options, and potential eligibility for forgiveness programs such as the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, depending on your employment and your repayment plan. Private loans, on the other hand, have different terms. They could require a cosigner. They may have variable interest rates. They may offer fewer hardship protections, and they may not be eligible for federal forgiveness programs. So you do need to ask some smart questions when it comes to loans. Especially if you're thinking about taking out private loans.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:08]: If you're planning to do that, you need to ask some questions like, what's the interest rate? Is the rate fixed or variable? Are there fees with the loans? When does the repayment begin? Will interest accrue while you're enrolled? Do you need a cosigner? Are there penalties for early repayment? And what protections are available if you experience financial hardship? My goal here is not to scare anyone away from borrowing. The goal here is to make sure that you are informed and you're able to make smart choices based on this new knowledge. Ultimately, cost matters, funding matters, borrowing matters, but there is another important part of the equation, and that's whether you successfully complete the program. Because Graduate school is challenging. Students can— you may be balancing coursework, research, jobs, family responsibilities, internships, clinical placements, or even dealing with financial stress. And strong student support can make a big difference. So before enrolling, make sure you're asking your program about completion rates and the time to degree and what percentage of students in the programs graduate. How long do students typically take? I mentioned that before.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]: What percentage finish in the expected timeframe? And what factors commonly delay graduation? Knowing the answer to these questions are going to allow for you to be able to really make smart decisions when it comes to identifying the right program for you. Because if you expect to finish in 2 years, but actually take 3 or 4, that changes your total cost. It also may delay your career transition or a salary increase. So a strong program should be able to take should be able to talk to you about how it supports students from admission through graduation when it comes to this. I also told you that we talk a little bit about outcomes, and outcomes are really important. Graduate school is not just about earning a credential, it's also about what that credential helps you to do. That might mean entering a licensed profession, moving into leadership, changing fields, preparing for doctoral study. increasing your earning potential, or pursuing work that aligns with your values.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:35]: Whatever your goal is, you should ask whether the program has a track record of helping students get there. So ask your program about career pathways. What are graduates from the program doing? What percentage of graduates find jobs, find jobs within their field within 6 months or a year? Where did the graduates of the institution Also work. You should also ask about earnings. What are the typical starting salaries for graduates in their program? What do graduates typically earn 1, 5, or 10 years after graduation? And how do these salaries typically align and compare? How do these salaries compare to the amount that students typically borrow? What level of debt do graduates usually have when they finish? And Based on typical earnings and borrowing, how long might it take to repay— how long might it take to repay your student loans? You hear a lot of people talking about return on investment. You hear a lot of people talk about return on investment or ROI, and that is not only about salary. It can also include personal fulfillment, career mobility, professional networks, job stability, and long-term opportunity. But salary and debt still do matter because a graduate degree can deeply, can be deeply valuable, and it still requires careful financial planning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:07]: The more you know about outcomes, the better you can evaluate whether a program aligns with your goals. So one thing that I want to stress to you today is that you shouldn't feel that You have to have all of this figured out right now. There are people whose jobs it is to help you understand the program and the finances. So you can talk to admissions staff or financial aid officers, program directors, faculty, current students, alumni. You know, each group can provide a different perspective. Admissions staff can help you understand requirements and timelines. Financial aid staff can explain Costs, loans, and aid options. Program staff can help explain assistantships, curriculum, and typical time to degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Current students can help you— can tell you— current students can tell you what the experience is really like. And alumni can help you understand the career outcomes and how the degree translated into professional opportunities. So getting down to brass tacks, there's some practical things that I hope that you'll be able to do today. So before you choose a graduate program, make sure that you understand 6 things. First, the full cost of attendance, not just tuition, but the complete cost of completing the degree. Second, the funding is available to you. Know whether it is guaranteed, Competitive, renewable, or conditional. Third, your borrowing needs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:40]: Estimate how much you may borrow each year and think about your total child. Estimate how much you would borrow each year and what your total debt may be at graduation. Fourth is repayment. You need to understand what repayment options may be and what your monthly income could look like. And fifth, you need to understand what repayment options may be available and what your monthly payments could look like. Fifth, ask yourself about completion rates, time to degree, advising, mentoring, and academic support. Ultimately, you want to know where graduates go, what they earn, and how much the degree supports their goals. If you can answer all of those questions clearly, you'll be able to be in a much stronger position to make an informed decision.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:26]: So in closing today, graduate school can be an incredible opportunity. It can change your career, expand your thinking, and grow your network. And often it opens doors that you might not have imagined. But it's also a serious investment. And the strongest graduate school decisions are made with clear eyes and good intention. So before you enroll, ask the financial question. Ask about cost, ask about funding, and ask about borrowing. So before you enroll, ask the financial questions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:58]: Ask about costs, about funding, about borrowing. Ask About completion. Ask about career outcomes. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You're not being difficult. You're being responsive. You're being responsible. And remember, the goal is not simply to get into graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:17]: The goal is to create— the goal is to choose a program that you can afford, complete it, and then use to move confidently toward the goals and the future That's it for today's Victors in Grad School. Thanks for listening. And as always, keep asking good questions, keep planning ahead, and keep moving forward. The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:15]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In a standout episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Zoiya Morell, a trailblazing University of Michigan Flint graduate who boldly charted a course from biology to artificial intelligence (AI) and is now pursuing her MD at Central Michigan University. This conversation not only chronicles Zoiya Morell's unique academic path but also offers invaluable guidance for anyone contemplating graduate studies or navigating career pivots.

The episode is rich with themes of curiosity, courage, and the power of following your passion—even when it leads to uncharted territory. Zoiya Morell candidly shares how she noticed the rapid rise of AI in medicine during her undergraduate pre-med studies. Lacking a coding background didn't stop her; instead, she recognized a learning opportunity and jumped headfirst into a challenging master's program in AI. Her experience proves that you don't need to fit the mold to shape a meaningful and impactful career.

A major highlight is Zoiya Morell's emphasis on embracing the unknown and the unexpected. She openly discusses facing setbacks, such as initially not being accepted into medical school, but demonstrates how taking a year to pursue her interest in AI not only made her a stronger applicant but also gave her skills that medicine increasingly needs. Her advice for grad school hopefuls is refreshingly honest: don't just tick boxes—find areas that truly excite you, because that passion will fuel your motivation and help you stand out.

The conversation also addresses the ever-present challenge of imposter syndrome. Zoiya Morell reveals how she overcame doubts by focusing on progress, experimenting fearlessly, and realizing that even experts are often still figuring things out—especially in fast-evolving fields like AI.

Another core theme is the significance of building relationships. From creating a thriving AI interest group to forging research collaborations that bridge medicine and technology, Zoiya Morell demonstrates how supportive connections with peers and professors can open doors and enrich your graduate journey.

Throughout the episode, listeners gain practical tips on time management, self-care, and leveraging unique skills. If you're curious about how to blend seemingly disparate fields, overcome obstacles, or make the most of graduate school, this episode is a must-listen.

Tune in to hear an authentic story of resilience and innovation, and discover how you can carve your own extraordinary path in graduate education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:02]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to work together as you are planning your own journey to graduate education. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school goes through a personal journey of reflection, of exploration, of just a deep dive into who they are and who they want to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: And as you go through that, there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now to start to prepare yourself to have success in this journey, whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about this, whether you've already applied and maybe gotten accepted to a graduate program, maybe you're even in a graduate program right now. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do to be able to find that success. And that's why this show exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to different people with different experiences and share them with you. All of the people that have been on this show in the past and in the future, have gone to graduate school or are going through graduate school and are sharing their own journey with you. And you can learn from that journey that they've been on. Why? Why? Because they've made mistakes, they've done things right, and they've been able to figure things out along the way, things that might be able to help you, things you can add to your own toolbox and be able to push you in the right direction. Today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Zoya Morel is with us today, and Zoya is a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint. She did both a bachelor's and a master's degree at the University of Michigan Flint, and we'll talk about that journey. But now she's actually a current doctor of medicine student at Central Michigan University, so we'll talk about that as well. I'm really excited to have her here, to be able to have her tell more about her own experience. Zoya, thanks so much for being here today.

Zoiya Morell [00:02:21]: Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:22]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to learn a little bit more about your own journey. And I always start these opportunities with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. While you were here as an undergraduate student, you were doing a biology degree in pre-med and focusing on that. And at some point, at some point you said to yourself, I'm not done. I'm not done. I want to keep going. And one of the interesting parts is that you chose a field that I would not have expected.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]: And I want you to talk a little bit about this. So bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I want to keep going. What was going through your head?

Zoiya Morell [00:03:05]: I actually get this question a lot, and it sounds kind of weird. Like, how did I go from biology, no computer background, to, oh, I'm going to get a master's degree in AI? Which huge learning curve, by the way, jumping into it. I did not have a coding background. I knew nothing. So a lot of people wonder what made you make that jump? And they seem unconnected, but they're not. So for one, while I was in the biology program, I kept noticing AI come up as this is what doctors are going to be using. This is how we're doing research. It was everywhere.

Zoiya Morell [00:03:38]: And anyone who knows me knows I hate not understanding. understanding something and I kept seeing AI come up and be like, oh, why don't I understand this yet? Why is it everywhere? So when I, for my thesis, I went to the Rogel Cancer Center for a symposium and I asked every single professor there, hey, how are you using AI in medicine today? And almost every single one of them said, I know we're using it. I don't know why or how. I was like, okay, we need to investigate this more. I was applying to med schools and I only applied to a handful. It's really expensive, so I just did the ones in Michigan cuz that's really where I wanted to be. And while I was doing that, I got one interview and didn't hear anything back from the handful I applied to. So I was thinking at this point, I'm probably not getting in.

Zoiya Morell [00:04:54]: I have to change my strategy of how I'm gonna do things. What can I do in the meantime? At the same time, I found out I had earned a Scholarship from the Maize and Blue Award, which was amazing. That was kind of everything aligned because this was the first year they offered scholarships for that, and that would've given money towards the master's program and a GSRA position. I didn't know what that was, but I was like, hey, let's apply. So I decided I might be able to get a master's degree done in a year if I speedrun it. Then, hey, by some miracle, if I get accepted into med school, I'll get it done before med school. Yeah. Crazy idea there.

Zoiya Morell [00:05:33]: It was, I didn't think both would happen at the same time. So I looked into the different master's programs and I had seen a lot of really scammy emails that were like, get a master's in public health. And I found they were really doing nothing for medicine. Everyone was getting them. No one was using them. So I looked into it more and I thought, what's the thing I see coming up everywhere that I'm just fascinated by? that I feel like I need to understand. And that was AI. If I had looked back to my 5-year-old self, I would've noticed these threads all along.

Zoiya Morell [00:06:05]: I used to play a computer game called Creatures that was both based on biology where, you know, you raise these little creatures, you control their neurons and their hormones and all these things. So I was learning biology, but it was also one of the world's first neural networks. So it turns out I had been doing this stuff and fiddling with computers as well as biology for as long as I could remember. It was being able to bring them together that was like, oh, this is where I need to be. So I applied to the master's degree and got in. That was excellent. And I was really able to— and surprised by how much I was able to bring medicine into AI. It's like the 2 fields are meant for each other, but there's not a lot of people that can bridge that gap.

Zoiya Morell [00:06:49]: So. That was my thought process there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:52]: Now, you mentioned the fact that in that journey through your master's degree, you didn't come in with any background and you had to really jump in with both feet and learn a lot along the way. And I would say that most individuals thinking about a graduate degree probably feel like they have at least some understanding of what they're applying for. and what they're getting themselves into. And with the fact that you didn't, I'm sure that there was a lot of learning, but also a lot of transition that you had to go through to be able to prepare yourself for getting into and getting through that program with success. And you did very well in that program. You graduated with a 4.0. I mean, you, you did very well in that program. So talk to me a little bit about in that program alone, And jumping into a completely unfamiliar field, what did you have to do as you transitioned into that graduate program? And what did you have to do as you went through that program to maintain that success for yourself?

Zoiya Morell [00:07:57]: So the first thing I would say is just stubbornness, because I needed a 4.0, or I convinced myself that I needed one for med school. I didn't know if that applied to the master's degree, but I was like, well, Let's find out. I better aim for a 4.0. A little bit of undue stress on myself there. But so that was my goal all along was I need to be good enough to maintain my grades in case it does apply to med school. But besides that stubbornness jumping in, I was terrified. I was like, I'm not good enough. I know nothing.

Zoiya Morell [00:08:31]: Uh, so I did a lot of self-study. I did a lot of, um, like, hey, how are people programming? today versus, you know, 10 years ago. Where do I start? There was a lot of AI teaching me how to do something and then me trying to do it on my own later. I picked up a lot of little projects that ended up being really helpful later, like the ability to— like, hey, this used to take me forever to do a literature review. What if I can code a thing that just scrapes the web and does it for me? So I started challenging myself to I know I need to know this. How can I use it right now? And this really helped me even more than the classes, which helped a lot as well. Just forcing myself to use it as much as possible, kind of like learning a new language. So that helped a lot.

Zoiya Morell [00:09:16]: And then the biggest thing was just, there was this massive shock for me when I went into classes and I realized I actually have an advantage by not knowing things because I know how much I don't know. A lot of students, data scientists come in and they figure they have a good foundation for this. But the thing is with AI is nobody knows anything. And once you realize that, you're in a good position to grow. So I was really shocked by how well I was able to do and figure things out because I didn't have that foundation of this is how things have to be done. I was able to kind of think outside the box. That meant I got things wrong a lot, but it also meant I was able to grow from that and not be stuck in how the way things had to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: So you did a lot of preparation in your undergrad to go right to med school. Like you said, you went through that med school process at first, and it may not have gone the exact way you wanted, but you decided to pivot and go in a little bit different direction. You made the comment that a lot of people talk about public health or some other area. I know there's post-bac type programs and things that will talk to students about ways in which to kind of bridge between the undergrad and med school. Now that you've done what you did, and you went in a little bit different direction in that regard, and you look back on what you decided to do, if you were talking to other pre-med students as they are going through that process, whether it be through the MCATs or the application process, or they're thinking about, do I need to take a gap year? What kind of advice would you give to them?

Zoiya Morell [00:10:51]: First of all, I'd say that med students are some of the most perfectionistic people out there. Don't get on Reddit for advice. You're just gonna see the people that scored perfect MCATs and have thousands of clinical hours and all these impossible goals. Don't check off a checkbox. Just figure out the things that excite you, that you wanna learn about, and pursue that. You could think, oh, it has nothing to do with medicine. It could be anything from fashion design to coding. And if that's what excites you as well as medicine, it's not an either/or, it's a both.

Zoiya Morell [00:11:26]: And I promise you, there will be a field where you can bring those together. I've seen so many weird little things, like I'm using AI in medicine constantly. So that would be my advice is if you're looking for a secondary degree before medicine, Don't just go for the same 5 that every med student chooses, because I've talked to a lot of med students and they're not really using their degrees. I don't think it helped them get into med school. It would be good for a separate degree, but don't get it if it doesn't excite you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: So you did decide to go to med school and you did finish that master's degree in 1 year, which is still a feat in itself and being able to get through that. But you went through that year of jumping into AI getting that master's degree, but at the same time going through again the application process. And you applied, like you said, to some programs within the state of Michigan. You ultimately decided to go to Central Michigan University. Talk to me about that search process for yourself and what ultimately made you decide that Central was the right program for you.

Zoiya Morell [00:12:33]: So I actually only ever had 2 interviews, uh, with Oakland and with Central, uh, which is not surprising knowing the stats, but also, uh, application processes are kind of rigged. I had nearly perfect everything, like really high MCAT, high GPA. I had research, I had some clinical, but where I was struggling was I didn't have the super sparkly, oh, I went to Africa and, you know, built a hospital from scratch in a year. I didn't have those things that make me sound superhuman. So when I was applying, I was of course gonna get beaten out by the students that had all those things. So between Oakland and Central, when I interviewed, Oakland said, hey, we noticed you updated your application to say you're pursuing a master's degree in AI. Tell us about that. So I talked about that a little bit and they said, you think medicine is going to be replaced by AI, don't you? You think we're not needed anymore.

Zoiya Morell [00:13:25]: You know, why do you even want to become a doctor? So negative about it. And I could tell from that instant, oh, I'm not going to get accepted here. They see my master's degree as a really bad thing. Then Central asked the same question. I was like, okay, here we go. This is gonna be the question that they kick me out now. And instead it was, how are you going to use AI in medicine? Hold up, wait, that's way different. And we were able to discuss it and I could tell that the faculty were just as excited as I was about how to bring ethics and humanity into AI and medicine.

Zoiya Morell [00:13:56]: We were able to talk about that and to the point where now I'm doing med school research on AI in clinics. So it's really been cool just to see that perspective there. So between their interest in AI and also they shared my interest in rural health, I was like, yes, this is exactly the place for me. Like I could tell the instant I walked in on that interview.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: And I mentioned the fact when you go into a program like AI that you had no background in to then Joining a medical program, again, different ways of learning, different expectations. You're being pushed in completely different directions. Yes, you're going to be able to pull from your biology background and your AI background to be able to help you in that journey. But there's still going to be another big transition that you have to go through. So talk to me about that transition of moving from— the master's and from the undergraduate institution that you came to know and really love to moving to a completely new academic environment and a new type of educational environment. What did you have to do as you transitioned into medical school to find that success and continue that success thus far?

Zoiya Morell [00:15:09]: Yes, so I've never been good at rote memorization, which is kind of a shocker. Part of what I loved about the AI degree was it was all based on What can you dream up? What can you fiddle with and create? Whereas med school is completely the opposite. It's, here is a PowerPoint that's 90 slides long. You better have it memorized by the next hour. So that was a massive change in learning environment and types. I will say the first 2 or 3 weeks I was studying over 15 hours a day, I would say, barely sleeping, barely eating. I just Convinced I didn't have the time, and then I had to rework the way I learned because I was realizing I don't learn the same way other people do. Everyone's different.

Zoiya Morell [00:15:53]: You know, everyone was saying use Anki flashcards. Turns out flashcards make me want to die inside, so I cannot use them. I had to figure out other ways, and that meant, for instance, how I learn now is I kind of tell myself stories and figure out ways to really understand the information rather than memorizing it. And once I can relate it to specific patients and specific events, then it's much easier for me to recall. We'll see how that applies when I get to the STEP exam. That'll be next year. But it was a different way to learn, and yet I was using a lot of the same tactics as in the AI degree, such as if I don't understand something, I am going to find resources and sit here until I do. A lot of that same stubbornness, and I even use AI a lot to teach myself things and create quizzes for me.

Zoiya Morell [00:16:43]: It's not perfectly accurate. You have to do a lot of self-study and checking, but the two have definitely gone hand in hand and it's changed the way I study to the point where at least this past year I was able to have quite a bit of free time. In fact, more than the master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:56]: Now, one of the things that a lot of times people fight against when it comes to a master's degree, a doctorate degree, no matter what degree it is, is they inevitably run up against a point in time where they run up against that imposter syndrome where they feel that self-doubt during their graduate studies. Talk to me about how that impacted you and how did you handle it?

Zoiya Morell [00:17:21]: Oh, that's been there this whole time. I will say I am like the worst test taker ever, so I chose a great degree for that. So even back to the ACT, like, my math score was abysmal because as soon as I see numbers on a page, they start to swim and I panic. So it, it came from a place of challenging myself and saying to myself, I don't want to be limited by what scares me and what I feel I'm not capable of. There was a lot of pushing through the things that scared me. I kind of had a motto of, pick the one thing that scares you today and do it, get it done. And that really helped was the, the little motivations like that. So that worked through bachelor's degree, of course.

Zoiya Morell [00:18:03]: And then MCAT comes along and I'm like, oh no. Another hurdle I can't overcome. I was struggling with that too, cuz I'm just not a great test taker. And during the master's degree, that was probably when imposter syndrome reared its head the most because I didn't have the background in it. So when doing my research, I was like, there is no way I'm putting forward anything useful here. I must be making stuff up. And what actually convinced me and helped me through that was I read massive amounts of AI research, and the more I read, the more I realized none of us know what we're doing. That's kind of the whole point of AI, to the point where I was trying to replicate other people's experiments and finding out some of them were just flat out wrong.

Zoiya Morell [00:18:48]: Like a lot of AI experiments, they feed it the test results, they otherwise rig the results. They don't report accuracy or some other measurement, or they don't even report things like cost or performance. So because of that, because we don't have a set definition of success in AI, I was like, okay, I don't need a set definition of success for myself either. That means I can just have fun with this experiment, do what I want. Sometimes that meant that I did things a little differently in class and I felt like, oh, I don't have that data science background that I need. But other times that was really helpful, was to be able to think a little differently. I will say imposter syndrome doesn't completely go away. Here in med school, I'm still like, maybe I should pick up Anki.

Zoiya Morell [00:19:33]: I'm doing this all wrong. I need to pull out some flashcards. But just picking those little things that you're curious about learning and proving to yourself that you can do it every little step along the way is really valuable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:45]: Definitely great advice. Now, as you think about that connection between AI and what you're doing right now, talk to me about how you're noticing the overlap as you're going through your medical program? I know you've been there one year, you're moving into your second year now, and talk to me about those connections.

Zoiya Morell [00:20:03]: Yes, so students are using AI to learn, and they're also teaching AI medical things. Professors are using AI to create quizzes or PowerPoints sometimes. And also, the amount of research between AI and medicine is astounding. So it's actually really hard to do a literature review on the two because there's so, so much out there right now. And a lot of it is either medical people that don't understand AI and are trying to use it, or AI people that are trying to do something in medicine. So both of those are like the super impactful research right now, but the fields don't really understand each other and they have difficulties kind of bridging the gap and communicating between them. So as I have been reading a lot of this research, I'm finding out the AI people are getting the medical stuff wrong. The medical people are getting the AI stuff wrong.

Zoiya Morell [00:20:56]: And what they really need is more research that is focused on ethics and understandability and repeatability in AI. So I'm seeing it pretty much everywhere from, an example would be like radiology is using it to pick which imaging should go first or to highlight details. You've got Ultrasound that's using it. You've got teachers using it. You've got pretty much everything I can think of is using AI to some extent. Even the study tools like UpToDate, for example, that's what doctors use when they're searching for what conditions a patient might have. It's an invaluable resource that now has its own AI that you can use to look for conditions. So it's absolutely everywhere.

Zoiya Morell [00:21:39]: There's no escaping it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:40]: Now, as you go through a graduate program, not only is it important to be able to learn what you've got to learn, but it's also important to make connections and to build those relationships with not only your faculty but also your peers. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build either through your master's or now in your, in your doctorate degree, and how did you find that those relationships were especially impactful?

Zoiya Morell [00:22:04]: So both my peers and my professors have all been amazing. I have made some of the best connections through the master's program. Kind of started during my first couple AI classes. I was like, hey, we're all interested in the same thing, and we are some of the first people to ever get a degree in AI. So because of that, I didn't wanna lose that connection. So I started a Discord server for anyone interested in AI, and every class I invited that class of students to join. It's gotten pretty big. And then also I've formed great relationships with several of my professors as well.

Zoiya Morell [00:22:36]: We still chat all the time. There's been some continued research there. I'm finally getting one of my research articles published just recently. I found out about that. It's been a year-long process through med school. There was some rough times when they needed a revision, but also I had an exam and I had to balance that. But then in med school, you're already a very tight-knit group cuz it kind of feels like you're all going to war and you're in this together. And what has happened in this past semester?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:03]: Yeah.

Zoiya Morell [00:23:03]: is I've formed a little research group. So our group is doing research in AI and medicine. And then on top of that, I was made leader of the Technology and Medicine student interest group. So my goal, my dream here, we'll see if it plays out, is to hook up the med students from Technology and Medicine, get them in touch with the AI interest group at U of M. And just be able to have them chat, have them, you know, bridge the gap there, because that really is where I see— that's where research needs to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]: As you think about the journey that you've been on, there is definitely things that you have to do to be able to find a balance, a balance between pushing yourself through a 1-year master's degree and getting through all of those courses and such to being in med school that's going to be pushing you in many different directions, like you said, to be able to memorize and learn and and to prepare yourself for the clinical portions of the degree itself. Talk to me about what you have had to do to be able to find balance, find balance in school and work and family and personal responsibilities while going through these very distinct graduate programs.

Zoiya Morell [00:24:25]: And in the master's degree, sometimes that meant I was running a piece of code at night for multiple nights, falling asleep to my computer choking and dying. But I mean, part of that was fun as well. I chose to do that because it was so exciting to me. But also that means having family and friends that are like, hey, you need to actually eat. And what has come of that, and I've realized from med school, especially especially, is it's not sustainable or healthy to push yourself to the point of getting things done every single time immediately. Like, you have to be able to take time for yourself. So I've kind of gotten better at scheduling. I am not a schedule person.

Zoiya Morell [00:25:06]: Don't show me a calendar, it will overwhelm me. But what I've kind of had to do is set aside certain blocks of time, and if I don't get enough done within that block of time, That's okay. That's the time I've set for myself and it, it's helped me a lot. So like for example, last semester in med school, wake up at 8:00 AM, study till like 12, have our lunch break, go to class until 5, watch the lectures for the next day until about 7. And then after 7:00 PM it was pretty much, I'm done for the day. I'm gonna play video games with my family, chat with my friends, take walks, that sort of thing. And I actually, from that, sometimes I'd get done early and I would tell myself, That doesn't mean you get to do extra. You're done early.

Zoiya Morell [00:25:45]: That means you're done. So I've found quite a bit of free time. I've been able to keep up with reading novels, writing novels, playing video games, all sorts of things. So I'm actually doing a lot more of my hobbies now than I did during undergrad, cuz undergrad there was that you have to get a 4.0, you have to be perfect all the time. And now in med school I'm like, hey, I just need to pass. So a lot more relaxed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Now, as you think back to your master's degree, but also what you're doing right now in your medical degree that you're working on, and you think about other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be a degree in AI, a degree in medical school, a degree in whatever it may be, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Zoiya Morell [00:26:32]: Oh my goodness. If I could just tell people to reach out to their professors, the number of times I'll get a student that will say, How do I get research? How do I do this? How do I, you know, find scholarships? How do I know which classes to take, what programs I will like, that sort of thing? I just tell people, reach out to your professors. The things and the opportunities you will get just because you talk to them about your interests is incredible. I got my first ever research in undergrad. This was on DNA sequencing with Dr. Sanders, just because he heard me talking in class about my interest in Computers and biology. He was like, hey, I heard you like computers. Wanna join this research? I was like, sure.

Zoiya Morell [00:27:11]: So it's little things like that. Just reach out to people. Don't be afraid. They're there to help you. And also the number of opportunities you can get from that is just astounding. And don't be afraid to say when you don't understand something. There are no dumb questions. If there are, then I'm the queen of them.

Zoiya Morell [00:27:29]: So it, it's totally okay to just go up to your professor and be like, Hey, this thing that everyone else in class seems to understand, I don't get it. Can you break it down like I'm a 5-year-old? And most of the time they'll say something like, hey, no one really understands this. Or yes, it is actually kind of complicated and no one gets it as well as they think they do. It's really good that you are trying to understand this. So ask questions, reach out to people, and I guarantee it will be so much easier.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: Well, Zoe, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not done, so I'm excited to be able to hear about your continued journey as you go through the rest of medical degree and learn more about those connections between AI and medicine and be able to work to help your patients to be able to make the profession even stronger. And I truly wish you all the best.

Zoiya Morell [00:28:19]: Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me. This was great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:21]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in-person or online Online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school, or searching for that extra spark of motivation to keep you moving forward on your academic journey? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers a truly inspiring conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah, a University of Michigan Flint alumna whose path from undergraduate studies to executive director shines a bright light on the power of purpose.

At the heart of this episode is Lucine Jarrah's belief in making a difference through community work. As she recalls, her undergraduate years were marked by activism, organizing with nonprofits such as the Arab American Heritage Council, and building programs aimed at creating social impact. When the idea of graduate school first took root, it wasn't about collecting another credential or checking a box. Lucine Jarrah sought deeper knowledge and tools to drive meaningful change: "I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. That's why I specifically sought out the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change" (03:13).

Throughout their conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah explore the transition from undergraduate to graduate life—a leap magnified by the isolation of the pandemic. Building community and camaraderie, even in digital or distanced formats, became a lifeline "[We had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, but also figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together" (07:19).

One of the most powerful themes of the episode is learning to manage self-doubt. Like many graduate students, Lucine Jarrah faced imposter syndrome, intensified by the remote learning environment. Her advice? Seek mentors, stay involved, and never shy away from new opportunities—even if they feel intimidating at first. "Having wonderful people in the program… gave me the confidence, the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted" (11:44).

Balance, too, is indispensable—Lucine Jarrah describes the challenge of juggling work, family, and studies, and stresses the importance of organizing, prioritizing, and giving yourself permission to rest.

If you're searching for a graduate school guide grounded in real-world experience, listen to Lucine Jarrah's story. The episode is filled with wisdom about growth, resilience, and the importance of knowing your "why." Tune in, get inspired, and take the first step toward your own journey of purpose-driven success.

Ready to listen? Don't miss this uplifting episode of Victors in Grad School. Your future self will thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together and help you to be able to move forward in that graduate school journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that goes to graduate school has to go through an individualized journey for themselves to be able to get from where they are to where they want to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do, things that you could do right now that can help you to start thinking Like you're going to graduate school, thinking like you should be to be able to prepare yourself for graduate school, but also doing other things to be able to prepare you for graduate school. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think in a different way, but also prepare yourself for graduate school in many different ways, because every person is going to have a little bit of a different experience in graduate school. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with those different experiences that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest. Lucine Jarrah is with us today, and Lucine is a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint. She got her undergraduate degree here at the University of Michigan Flint, and then she went on to get her MSW. We'll talk about that journey for herself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to share some of her experiences with you. Lucine, thanks so much for being here today.

Lucine Jarrah [00:01:51]: Thank you, Chris. Excited to—

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I'm excited to have you here today and to be able to talk about your own journey. And I always love being able to start these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point, at some point in that journey of getting that bachelor's in social work, you made a decision. You made a decision, I'm not going to just stop with that BSW. I'm going to continue on. I'm going to keep going to get my master's in social work. Bring me back to that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was right for you?

Lucine Jarrah [00:02:29]: Yeah, I mean, I had a really amazing undergraduate experience here at the University of Michigan Flint. And, you know, during my time, I was really involved on campus. I was organizing on and off campus, actually, and I was getting really excited about thinking, you know, where I wanted to take my career and I was getting involved with some local nonprofits in the area, like the Arab American Heritage Council, and worked on numerous other campaigns related to general GOTV, getting out the vote, and then also like the widely known campaign, the One University campaign, which was about getting more funding and resources to the University of Michigan-Flint. So my role in all of that work and wanting to be able to do more and have more tools at my disposal to do more, I think was the biggest motivating factor for me to start thinking about grad school in a really serious way. I had all this wealth of experience doing organizing work and helping build programs, working with communities, but I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. And that's why I specifically sought out this program at U of M Ann Arbor, the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change. So for me, you know, it wasn't, it didn't feel like a random next step. It felt like something that was really connected to this question that I was having, which was, you know, how can I do more? How can I build my skills, improve my skills, improve my access to tools so that I can do better for my community?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:43]: And really, you answered my next question, which really was, you did go to the University of Michigan for that MSW program. Great program, and definitely has opportunities for being able to delve into the community work research and being able to better understand the people around you. But one of the questions that I always ask is, there are many different master's programs that are out there, and you kind of already explained, and you said that U of M's program was the right fit for you, and maybe that was the only program that you applied to. But were there other things that you were looking at when you were thinking about graduate schools that really allowed for you to be able to whittle that list down? Or was it really that there was just one that you really wanted?

Lucine Jarrah [00:04:24]: So what was appealing to me about this particular program was the community change pathway. I think there's always been a very narrow view of social work. People tend to think of social work as very limited in scope when it's actually very, very broad in scope. And so there was something really exciting to me about pursuing something like social work and being able to do work that was very much connected to community organizing and systems-level change and all of that. And so I think it— At the time, I was sort of just asking myself the question, what kind of work am I trying to do? What skills do I need to grow into that work? Am I choosing grad school because it aligns with those goals or because I feel pressured to do it, to check a box? I was really, you know, doing a deep dive into thinking about these questions very seriously. And ultimately, I decided that it was a good fit for me because it was going to allow me to better service my community, which was the ultimate goal for me, and bring that knowledge and expertise back into the community, which is exactly what I did after grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:17]: I moved back to Pakistan. Now, every person goes through transitions as they go from one academic program to the next, one level of academic program to the next. And the way you're taught in undergrad is going to be very different than the way you're educated at the graduate level. And the expectations are different. Faculty are going to be expecting different things of you as a learner yourself. Talk to me about the journey that you went on yourself. And you were successful in that journey. You got through, you got your master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:45]: Talk to me about the transitions that you had to go through. And what did you have to do at the beginning of your graduate school journey to to transition into graduate school? And what did you have to do throughout that graduate school experience to maintain that success?

Lucine Jarrah [00:06:01]: That's a good question. And honestly, I went into grad school at a really interesting time. I was— it was in the middle of the pandemic, actually. And so I was going into a field that really, for me, is all about community, right? It's about interacting with people on a pretty regular basis. And so to be living through a time where we were all super disconnected and far away from each other physically was really different and something I had to sort of navigate in the program while I was moving to Ann Arbor and getting acclimated to this new grad school journey. And so that was really different and something that I didn't necessarily expect. And I was really concerned about, you know, how it was going to impact my experience as a student and what I was going to be able to gain from the experience of doing the master's program. Because for me, you know, I was really excited about being able to do my internship and being able to work off campus.

Lucine Jarrah [00:06:50]: For me, it was at a place called the Center for Community Well-Being. And so I was really excited about the opportunity to be in person and work with colleagues and talk about programs and do all of that work, you know, in person in a collaborative way, in a way that I was used to doing. And so that was certainly a challenge for me, you know, going into grad school is very different than my undergrad years where I was constantly on campus. I practically lived on campus. And I was, you know, always doing after-school things and always attending community events. And so we had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, of course, during the pandemic, but also, you know, figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together. So we, you know, we found ways. It was not without its challenges, but we found ways to get through it.

Lucine Jarrah [00:07:35]: And I think the biggest credit I could give is just being able to surround myself with such incredible people who were willing to take that challenge very seriously and still find ways to connect and just be with each other even under difficult circumstances.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Now, you mentioned a little bit earlier that after graduate school, you went back to your home community. You came back to Flint and you started working back at the Arab American Heritage Council and transitioned into that type of work again, after being involved with them as a younger individual working as an undergraduate student. And you have since transitioned into becoming the executive director of the Arab American Heritage Council. And I guess I would be interested to dig a little bit into the takeaways in the sense that you think back to your, your graduate school experience, and you learned a lot of different things. it relates to community work and relates to working with people. But talk to me about how you're utilizing what you learned in that graduate work on a daily basis.

Lucine Jarrah [00:08:38]: Yeah, I mean, it's every day, right? So much of my graduate education was about learning to understand how systems and structures operate. I was in, you know, investigating systems and structures at a federal level. So how do agencies and institutions, organizations that we rely on, how do they operate? How do we ensure and hold them accountable so that they are actually effective and delivering delivering for community in a meaningful way. So a lot of these things I was exploring and unpacking in the classroom throughout my graduate school years. And so coming back into this job, I felt very much equipped with the knowledge and honestly with the advocacy framework to be able to then through the AHC do the work of fighting for that accountability, fighting for that oversight, and thinking more transformatively about how do we want systems to actually work for communities. How can we improve them? How can we imagine better for our communities and not just think in the ways that we've been sort of programmed to think about these systems and structures? So coming into the AHC right after grad school, I thought I was on top of the world and very excited about all of the ways that I was going to be able to utilize what I had learned in school and now actually be able to incorporate it into my work in the advocacy space, in the programming space, in all spaces through the Heritage Council to improve the mission and help advance the mission of the Heritage Council, but also help build the political power of our communities here in Flint and Genesee County so that we can again feel empowered in our ability to imagine better for our society, for our community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]: One of the things that I would be interested in hearing from you on is every person as they go on into graduate school at one point or another run up against that proverbial wall when it comes to whether or not they feel like they truly belong, whether or not they feel like they know enough, that they are enough, that they can be enough to be able to be successful in that graduate school experience that they're going And many times they call it imposter syndrome, but there's other pieces with self-esteem and other things like that that go into it when you're entering into that new type of environment. Talk to me about how that impacted you and whether you did face imposter syndrome or self-doubt during graduate studies, and how did you handle it?

Lucine Jarrah [00:10:50]: Oh yeah, I absolutely did. And I think it was exacerbated by the fact that we were all so disconnected and far away from each other physically, right? So I would say I leaned heavily on identifying mentors in grad school and And not really shying away from any opportunity to get involved in things, even if it felt a little bit nerve-wracking or something that I perhaps wasn't used to doing or didn't have the skill set as somebody else perhaps who was going into it. So really not shying away from the opportunity, but leaning on folks in that space to help guide me and feeling like I, I could build those relationships and lean on those relationships for support. And that helped me a lot. It helped me establish incredible mentors throughout my time in my grad school program. And it allowed me to feel more confident in my ability to take on new challenges. And so, it was certainly a process, and I did go through periods where it felt particularly challenging for me to show up in certain spaces because I didn't necessarily feel like I was meant to be there. But I think having wonderful people in the program constantly in communication with me and working with me and so many other spaces, it gave me the confidence, it gave me the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted to pursue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]: And how did you balance both school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school?

Lucine Jarrah [00:12:06]: Oh, I have no idea. I have no idea. It was hard. It was really, really hard. I, you know, I had to find a way to get organized. I had to make sure that I wasn't burning myself out. I was still very much connected to the Heritage Council even throughout my grad school years. Actually, that's sort of how I was able to ultimately pursue the executive director job afterwards was staying so connected to the council.

Lucine Jarrah [00:12:28]: throughout undergrad and in grad school. So I was working full-time, I was in school, I, you know, I had family commitments. It was, it was very, very difficult. And I definitely went through periods where I, I had to sort of sit down with myself and reground and, and really think about, you know, you're gonna burn yourself out if you don't take a time to get organized, take time to rest, take time to prioritize things. So it was really a mix of that, right? It was really thinking about, okay, what are the things that I absolutely need to prioritize here and, and commit to? And what are some other things that I can maybe put on the back burner for a little bit? and come back to at a later time. And so again, I think this question is also connected to the last one, which is that having incredible mentors and guidance in grad school, whether that's through faculty, staff, other students, or the relationships I was building with the community, they helped me along the way. They reminded me of the importance of taking time to rest and take breaks and not feel like I have to say yes to everything all the time. And also think about, you know, what does it mean to like meaningfully prioritize the things that I'm doing so that I can commit to them in the ways that I, I want to, right? Because that's the other thing about me is I really want to give 100% commitment to everything that I do.

Lucine Jarrah [00:13:34]: And of course, we're all human. And so doing that for 4 or 5, 6 different things just means you're gonna burn yourself out really fast. So yeah, I definitely give lots of credit to just the wonderful people in my life who continue and to this day continue to remind me to take time to talk about—

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:49]: You talked about the relationships and the mentors that you built and things like that. Talk to me about those relationships and what you had to do to be able to build those relationships with faculty or peers that helped you to find success in that journey.

Lucine Jarrah [00:14:06]: Yeah, I think this is the other thing that can be, you know, nerve-wracking about grad school, going to a grad school that, of course, U of M is a little bigger than U of M Flint. And so the benefit of being at U of M Flint is it felt like you could end class and go up to your professor and talk to them and even walk them to their next class or meeting or go to their office hours. Having the smaller class sizes meant that you were building more intimate relationships with your faculty and professors, whereas going to a place like U of M Ann Arbor, it was a little bit more of a challenge to develop those relationships, but also I was going during the time of the pandemic, which made it even more of a challenge because we were all remote. And so I think what I, you know, ultimately did was I would send emails to faculty that I was, you know, I was really interested in their research or I really wanted to work with them, or I came across something that they were actively involved in in the community. A program they were helping to run, something like that. And so, I would send an email, I would reach out to them, and I would say, you know, I would love to have 5, 10 minutes of your time just to chat with you. And from there, you know, usually they, you know, would either, you know, be honest about their capacity to take on, uh, somebody like an intern or to have somebody shadow them, or they would connect me to another resource. And so, I think just taking that initial step to reach out and express, you know, my interest, express my excitement, my passion for what I want to do, and why I'm interested in working with them.

Lucine Jarrah [00:15:22]: It definitely went a long way. And even if I didn't end up working with that particular faculty member, I always felt like they were wonderful people who were always willing to connect me with others who aligned with my interest and my passion and my work. So it's always just about that first step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: And how do you find that graduate school changed the way you think, you work, or you approach problems?

Lucine Jarrah [00:15:45]: I think it gave me more of a, I guess, a framework, a new perspective for how I engage in the work that I do. Like I said, I think for me, the appeal of this program, of Master of Social Work program and the Community Change Pathway, was that I was already doing work like this, but I wanted better— I wanted to improve my skills, and I wanted better tools at my disposal so that I can engage in the work in a more meaningful way. And so, you know, for me, it felt like walking away from the program, I felt like I did have a new perspective of looking at my work, a new framework for doing things like advocacy, new connections, new relationships. So it gave me a lot of the things that I obviously still tap into to this day in this work as a nonprofit leader, but also in my other work outside of the Heritage Council as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:40]: No, Now, as you think about the journey that you went on and you think about other individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Lucine Jarrah [00:16:56]: I would say really think about your why. Graduate school is not just about earning another degree. For me, it was about building tools and relationships and the confidence to do the work that you feel called to do, right? For me, it was work in community and in the nonprofit sector. For others, it might be different. But being able to think about your why and have a good solid answer to fall back on is really important because there's going to be numerous challenges that come your way throughout grad school. It's not easy. And to be able to come back and think about, okay, what is my purpose? Why am I doing this? Why did I get myself into this? It's going to be in a really important way to continue to motivate you and inspire you on your path. So I would say absolutely be really thoughtful about why you're doing this, why you are picking the program that you are, and how it's going to continue to inspire and motivate you down the line.

Lucine Jarrah [00:17:55]: And also, I was just going to say, and you also don't have to have all the answers figured out. That was something else I struggled with in grad school is I thought I had to have it all figured out all the time. But it's, you know, it's an opportunity for you to learn and grow, and you might change your mind about things, and that's okay. So don't feel like you have to have it all figured out. It's definitely meant for you to be able to grow and explore new things and answer and find new answers to questions and all of that. So I would just say, be open to it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: Well, Lucienne, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for the great work that you're doing in Flint and within your community. And I truly wish you all the best.

Lucine Jarrah [00:18:42]: Thank you so much, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:43]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].