Victors in Grad School

Are you considering taking the next big step in your educational journey? Whether you're just starting to think about graduate school or already knee-deep in your studies, the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Steven Foster, Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school. Their lively conversation weaves through Steven's personal journey—from earning his bachelor's in English Language and Literature, jumping straight into the workforce, and then making the pivotal decision to return for his master's in Educational Leadership at Wayne State University.

One major theme is the importance of having a clear motivation for pursuing graduate studies. As Steven Foster shares, his return to school was sparked by an early realization that additional credentials would be crucial for career advancement and personal growth. This combination of upward and social mobility, practical experience, and a passion for educational outreach shaped his path and success (02:16).

Discipline, curiosity, and organization are highlighted as the bedrock skills for anyone navigating graduate school. Steven Foster emphasizes that being disciplined and staying organized are essential, especially when juggling work and academic responsibilities (06:45). He notes, "Being disciplined, being curious, being open… those skill sets are extremely important in your journey."

Another key takeaway is the role of community and support systems. Graduate school can be overwhelming, and imposter syndrome is a common stumbling block. Steven Foster candidly discusses how self-awareness, open communication, and fostering connections with peers and mentors can provide the reassurance and encouragement needed to push through challenging moments (10:30).

Listeners will find practical advice throughout, from evaluating graduate programs and career prospects to leveraging faculty relationships and embracing opportunities for professional and personal development. Steven Foster encourages prospective students to research institutions thoroughly and think beyond just degree requirements—consider how the experience can open doors to consulting, teaching, volunteering, and more (17:03).

If you're seeking inspiration, reassurance, or actionable tips for your graduate school journey, this episode is for you. Tune in and let Steven Foster and Dr. Christopher Lewis guide you through the path to graduate school success—because your journey is uniquely yours, and with the right tools and mindset, you can be victorious too!

Click here to listen and start your journey to grad school success today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are on a unique journey, something that you are going to be going through, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe, maybe you've been accepted. You could be in any of these places, you could even be in graduate school. But throughout all of this, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to help you to be successful along the way. And that's why this show exists. Every week I love being able to bring you different pieces of advice, different thoughts, different perspectives, and also different people that have gone before you to be able to give you some perspectives on their own experience going through graduate school. This week we got another great guest. Stephen Foster is with us, and Stephen is the Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here to tell you about his own experiences going through graduate school. And to welcome him to the show. Stephen, thanks so much for being here.

Steven Foster [00:01:24]: Thank you, Kris, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: I am really excited to be able to have you. And one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time, and I want to go back a little ways because I know you did your undergraduate work, and after you went through that experience and got that Bachelor of Arts in English Language and Literature, you went off and got a job. You went off and worked, and you jumped into the world of financial aid.

Steven Foster [00:01:49]: I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: And you never looked back. But one of One of the things that I want to do is ask you about this point in time, because there was a point in time that you were working, you're out there, but at some point you had this inkling that you needed to go back. You wanted to continue. You had to scratch that itch for going back and getting more education. And I guess bring me back to that point and what made you decide that that was the right time, the right place?

Steven Foster [00:02:16]: You know, thank you, Kris, and I'm excited to be here just to share some of my experiences. And I did receive my undergrad from University of Michigan, graduated with my master's in educational leadership from Wayne State University. And what really inspired the additional need for education is I knew that at one point in my career I was going to need it for that upward mobility, that social mobility, and having the credential, right, makes it a little bit easier, right, to give you the practical hands-on experience, to give you the theoretical aspect side, educational leadership research, to give you the technical pieces that you need to be a, a successful administrator and leader. So I knew that early on in my career because I actually started my graduate program and my graduate work about 2 to 3 semesters out from my undergrad after graduating. So I knew, I just knew early on that, hey, I need this credential, I'm going to need this credential along the way to help me to advance. And so I went to work during the day, and as soon as I was done at work during the day, I would go right into classes in the evening. And I guess early on it helped me because I still had some level of discipline as a student from my undergraduate experience. So I think that helped me a little bit along.

Steven Foster [00:03:49]: The way in order to help me to, to push through to my master's to completion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]: Now, I know you did your master's degree at Wayne State University and you got a Master of Education in Educational Leadership and Administration, and there are a lot of programs that are in the Master of Ed space and you chose Wayne State. So bring me back to that point. And when you were thinking about looking at, you know, pers— all the different prospective universities, what made you decide on Wayne State University? What made it stand out? And talk to me about that process for yourself.

Steven Foster [00:04:23]: Yes. So I was looking at several programs and I really wanted to go into education. I wanted to go back in— I wanted to go in a K-12 setting. So I actually was looking at master's for teacher certification programs and I was looking at the University of Michigan. I also was looking at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I looked at Michigan State University and ultimately landed at Wayne State University for actually selfish reasons. It was a tremendous benefit called, uh, educational benefit, and it kind of altered my plans from, uh, going into the classroom and really finding my passion in the higher education side of, of education where I could affect change, where I could help students— be that bridge and bridge that gap to students to promote higher education and to promote education from a different lens, um, besides going into the classroom. So that's what kind of detoured me.

Steven Foster [00:05:29]: It was actually the benefit of getting my degree paid for, but also I really got a passion for educating students how to think about college affordability, how to think about college finance, and how to plan for college, how to be successful in college and looking at higher ed. From the outreach side of things and being a bridge and being a spokesperson about the many benefits of receiving a higher education degree can bring to students and their families.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now, going from undergrad to grad, you said that it had been a few terms out from when you graduated to when you started. And when you go into a graduate program, there definitely is a transition because it's a different way of being taught, a different— level of expectations by faculty members and a different level of expectation on yourself for what you're trying to achieve. So talk to me about those transitions. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you add to— have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Steven Foster [00:06:45]: The biggest thing, or the number one thing that comes to my mind, is being disciplined. Being disciplined, being curious, being, being open. Because when you go undergrad or grad, I think grad is, uh, of course, higher thought processes. It's a lot of reading, it's a lot of theory, it's a lot of hands-on practice. So a combination of all of that, but being disciplined and organized. Those skill sets are extremely important in in your journey, definitely if you're transitioning back into the grad space after you've been out of school a number of years, staying on top of your assignments, staying on top of your reading, asking questions. You know the saying, there's no such thing as a dumb question, right? But having that intellectual curiosity that there are many different paths to ultimately get to where you want to be, but how you actually perceive the world of, of grad school, whatever your discipline is of study. It could be health sciences or education, social work or business, that there is some level of curiosity and exploration in coming to find out where are you the master at? What is your subject matter expertise? What are those things that interest you to where you say, I'm going to be the subject matter expert in this? It just opens your doors for possibilities to so many things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:12]: You know, as you talk about that, you know, you're working on a master's degree and there's some internal thought that when you are being admitted into a master's program, you are becoming a master of something, which is sometimes a little dodging when you think about it to be called, eh, I'm the master of nothing. I'm a master of none. I guess when you went into that master's degree and as you're going through this coursework and you're seeing yourself in a different way, talk to me about that transition for yourself as an individual and as a professional and how that graduate degree helped you to either refine or redefine who you were at the time and who you were becoming?

Steven Foster [00:08:53]: I think for me, and that— I think that's an excellent question. I think that it actually allowed me to refine, but not only refine, it's so many aspects to a master's degree and to graduate education that depending on what class you are taking or depending on what season you are in, in your life and how it benefits you in that moment. So for me, because I was so early on in my career, it allowed me to kind of shape how I wanted to be perceived as a professional. It kind of shaped my modus operandi in order to be an asset and be beneficial to all of the families that I serve and, you know, faculty working with different constituencies in higher education, working— how do you have conversations with Congress versus your faculty? And, you know, dealing with some of the nuances of how do you handle a sensitive student case to a parent that just wants basic information. So it gives you a breadth and a depth in order for you how to be successful, right? And how to apply the knowledge that you acquire.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: Now, every individual, as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, ends up hitting a point in time where whether it's you're seeing yourself as a master of something or you are just going through that first course where you feel that imposter syndrome and you go through this process of questioning, "Should I be here? Am I good enough?" All of those different thoughts that go through your head. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome impacted you and what you had to do to get through it.

Steven Foster [00:10:30]: At points in all of our careers in education, as, as we're matriculating into degree programs, you know, on our jobs and our careers, maybe even in our households, there is always a bit of self-doubt in us. I could have handled that situation better, or how could I have accomplished that in a different manner? So I think that we have imposter syndrome across everything that we do, whether it's a volunteer experience, professional experience, personal experience. But for me, how I really overcame it was through self-awareness. But not also self-awareness, it's really also grasping on to like individuals. So a lot of times you're in classes with the same people. A lot of programs are cohort-based. My program was not necessarily cohort-based, but really having those conversations and building support systems to help you through. Sometimes you have to talk stuff through with a gamut of people.

Steven Foster [00:11:33]: That could be your classmate, it could be your spouse, it could be your therapist, it could be your faculty your lead, or, you know, your advisor, or those things. So it's those people that help you along the way to be successful, but to also ground you and reel you back in when you need that reassurance. So my word of advice to people is don't be afraid to talk about the challenges that you are having. If you're in a grad program, or if you're in that space that you feel that imposter syndrome, you probably need to get it out, to express yourself, to make you feel a little bit and tackle it head on so that you don't continue to— some people, you know, beat, beat themselves up, not literally, but from that perspective. But talk to someone because someone else is also in your same shoes. And that's what I did. Latched on to some of my classmates, made sure, you know, we had regular conversations, you know, healthy debate about the work, about the assignments, about, you know, some of the challenges that we were experiencing in order to be successful. And, uh, one of the things is I was also— I was somewhat younger than some of my classmates at the time.

Steven Foster [00:12:45]: I'm a little bit older now, but that wasn't the case when I started my master's program. I was in a class with professionals who had been working 20, 30 years at that point, and they were just starting to come back for their credential, right, for their upward mobility. And here I am, this young, spry kid coming in on the scene, and I'm in these rooms with people people who have double and triple the experience that I have, what am— how can I ever bring the value and knowledge of the experiences that, that they have? So it is a— it can be an overwhelming process, but you just have to get in where you fit in is the perfect way for me to put it. You don't have to try to over, um, outdo or outshine. Based on the little experience that I had, I still was able to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful and way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:40]: Now, as you think back to the beginning, before you even started graduate school, I'm sure you had some conversations with friends, with colleagues, with others that could give you their own perspectives. And if you think back to that very beginning, what's something that you wish that someone had told you, or that you had known prior to starting graduate school that would have helped you to make that transition even better?

Steven Foster [00:14:02]: I really do believe that it was just a little bit different for me because I was passionate about education. I was getting— I had hands-on work experience. I was, I was still working and going to school. So it wasn't like I wasn't working and only going to school or went straight through. I was able to apply what I was learning in my actual day-to-day. That made my experience even more successful or more better for me as I was talking to professors and things of that nature. Definitely at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor at the time, you know, and advisors and things of that nature, their thought process was learning experience is, it's an ongoing process, right? That curiosity for exploration and for learning is important. So they, they stress the importance of, if this is the path you want to take, you have to do this, or you have to do that.

Steven Foster [00:14:55]: So they were actually my biggest cheerleaders in making sure that I was successful in my on-ramp to my grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]: Well, it's always good to have those mentors and those people that help you to maneuver into figure things out along the way. And you also build relationships with faculty along the way as well. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build with faculty or with peers inside of your program. And how was that impactful in the experience that you went through?

Steven Foster [00:15:26]: My relationship with my faculty advisor was, was tremendous because I was able to meet with them on a regular basis and have thoughtful conversation about what is it that I can do with this credential, what What paths make sense for me from a career perspective? What are the different things that I can do outside of my career? You know, what, what does it mean to go in consulting? I always think that ultimately I wanted to go and be a professor. I have started a PhD a while ago and opportunity came along and I put that on pause, but it's always the, the opportunity for them to share their experiences and based on the skills assets that you have, them to kind of guide you through some of those things. And that's what I'll always appreciate about definitely some of the faculty that I have connected with on a basis as a student, that they are always trying to get the best out of you, whatever that is for you as an individual. It's not, you know, they're not selling anything, they're not selling you any fairy dust and unicorns or anything like that, but they're trying to get the best out of their students. And that was the experience that I had.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: And I guess finally, as you look back on your own experience, you were successful in the journey that you went through. And as you think back, I guess, to the entire experience and you look at where you are today and you think about people that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Steven Foster [00:17:03]: Some tips is research your institutions. Research your programs, look at the viable career paths that you want to go into, and look at the plan B or look at the— what's the side hustle that I can do from this degree that will produce additional streams of revenue, additional income based on the degree that you do have? Opportunities for consulting, opportunities for part-time or work from home opportunities from whatever the deal degree program is because for me, graduate education, it opens the door even more to more possibilities than your bachelor's degree a lot of times. And that upward mobility and that social mobility is very important for our students that we serve. So you want to make sure that this is something that you're truly passionate about, but that it opens other doors and opportunities for you to get the best well-rounded experiences that you need in order to be successful, maybe in your main career. But there are also branches that shoot off from that main career— speaking engagement, teaching opportunities, professorships, consulting opportunities, volunteer opportunities on boards and different things of that nature in order to help nonprofits and stuff grow depending on whatever your discipline is. So you're volunteer, you're professional. Experience, your community experience, all of that makes you a well-rounded person. And it gives us a personal ethos for us to be change agents in that you are in the world to shed your light and shed your experience in whatever direction that is and works best for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:45]: Well, Stephen, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And, you know, I'm going to continue to encourage you now that I know that you started a PhD to keep going. I'm looking— not to stop out, but always keep going, always keep pursuing, and don't, and don't give up.

Steven Foster [00:19:01]: Absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: So that being said, I thank you for your time today, and I wish you all the best.

Steven Foster [00:19:06]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you thinking about going to graduate school, or already on the journey and searching for motivation? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School offers both inspiration and practical advice. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with John Ambrose, Vice Chancellor for Enrollment Management at the University of Michigan Flint. Through vulnerability and candor, John Ambrose unpacks his non-linear path to academic and professional achievement, and why graduate school was transformative for him.

A recurring theme throughout the episode is resilience. As a first-generation student, John Ambrose openly discusses the difficulty of navigating higher education "without the right mentoring and information," sharing a raw moment of feeling "trapped" after changing majors and needing additional years to finish his undergraduate degree (02:23). Despite setbacks and personal loss, including the passing of his father during his freshman year, John Ambrose pressed on, motivated to create meaning and success for himself.

The transition into graduate school wasn't easy. John Ambrose recounts taking a pay cut to accept a job that would fund his master's, balancing the demands of work, school, and family – at times, facing weekends packed with study and few breaks (09:41, 22:36). For anyone hesitating to return to school later in life, his advice is honest: "It's not that you can't do it, but what are the adjustments that I need to make?... What is this going to mean for your family?" (21:13). Preparation and honest communication with one's support network are crucial.

Another highlight is John Ambrose's perspective change from undergraduate to graduate studies. He describes the graduate experience as "fun," especially the value of discussion-based learning and the satisfaction of intellectual exchange (10:18). He notes that beyond credentials, graduate school is about personal development and acquiring soft skills—listening, confidence, grit, and the ability to articulate your experiences. "[Graduate school] is an opportunity to develop yourself and to provide opportunities for you to become a different type of version of yourself," he reflects (24:29).

This episode isn't just for prospective students—it's for anyone seeking to find meaning in growth, overcome setbacks, and make purposeful choices about the next stage in life. Tune in to hear an inspiring journey that proves success isn't always linear—and graduate school can be about so much more than a degree.

Listen to the full episode and let John Ambrose's journey empower your own.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ambrose [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we're on a journey together. I say it every week, but it is so true that the— that what you're doing right now as you are preparing to think about— either think about graduate school, apply to graduate school, go through graduate school— it is a journey. And that journey might take you a year to get into graduate school, it might take you 2 years, 3 years, who knows. No matter where you are on this path, there are things that you can do right now to help you to be successful ultimately in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: And that's why this show exists. This show exists to help you to find some tools for your toolbox to help you to be able to to find success sooner. We do that many times through opportunities for you to meet others that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, have been successful in graduate school, and they can share that experience with you. And today we've got another great guest with us. I'm really excited to be able to have John Ambrose with us. And John is the new Vice Chancellor for Enrollment Management at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have him here to be able to share with you his journey in going through graduate school and how that's led him to here at University of Michigan Flint. John, thanks so much for being here today.

John Ambrose [00:01:33]: Dr. Lewis, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today. And I am going to start this interview with an opportunity to go back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Western Michigan University and then— yes, go Broncos! We both have that connection that we're both Broncos and I guess I wanna go back in time to that point when you were at Western, and then after Western, you went off, you worked for a while, and at some point, some point in that work experience, you made a choice, you made a decision that you were going to continue your education and continue your education in a completely different area than what you did as an undergraduate student. So bring me back to that point when you were having that inkling in your mind, and what made you decide that that was the right time —to go to graduate school?

John Ambrose [00:02:23]: Oh, man. Uh, days in Kalamazoo were an amazing time for me. That was an opportunity where I like to say I, I was reared in Detroit, but I was trained in Kalamazoo. In terms of adulting, as the young people use, uh, that term today, it took me 6 and a half years to get my 4-year degree from Western Michigan, mostly because I changed my major, but I only changed it once. And I was required to almost go back from square one. Uh, very few of the credits that I had earned prior to were allowed in my new major. And so it, it was a difficult decision, but as a first-generation student, then you're doing your best to negotiate and navigate, and all the information you're getting is not necessarily accurate. So I just found myself having to make an adult decision in the moment.

John Ambrose [00:03:14]: So I remember very vividly going out and sitting on the curb and crying. And I got myself together after I cried about it. And it was, you know, it was almost like I felt like a sit— like I had just been sentenced to 4 more years of jail. And not that I hated it, but it just— I felt trapped, to be honest, if I'm being honest about the emotions that I felt. But I was like, okay, you're— this is it. I mean, this is what I have to do. And I had gotten myself into that position primarily because a little bit of it was academics, A lot of it was just the lack of mentoring that I had and the lack of sharing and feeling like I was the only one. But those are the types of things that first-generation students will face at moments in their educational journey.

John Ambrose [00:03:58]: But stood up, dropped my face off, went to the bathroom, washed it, and came back and signed up and said, okay, let's do it. So I did my 4 years, and at that point I thought, I'm never coming back to college again. But I was so focused on my career that when I got ready to graduate, I don't already done in, in excess of 12 different internships all over the place, trying to really find myself. Everything from internships within my major to legal and social work and outside, you name just, you know, I did just about any job there was to do on the campus and worked in all the buildings, I think, except two by the time I graduated. But it was an opportunity, like I said, to really mature and grow. And eventually I did gain mentors across the campus. And so But it was just a different type of experience and one that I cherished really very dearly and hold close to my heart because I lost my dad my first semester freshman year. And he was a bit of my muse for going to college.

John Ambrose [00:05:01]: So when he passed away, I really wasn't sure because I'd never done anything for myself. Uh, everything I did was to please him and to make him happy. And, you know, you, you wanted to get that stamp of approval from your dad or— and your mom. But my dad was larger than life in my eyes at that time. And also it was, it was a bit of learning, learning to want things for myself. So fast forward, I graduate, I work in the printing industry for a few years, actually more than a few, but I changed companies probably about 3 times and each one, uh, more progressively until the last one that was a bit more entrepreneurial. Found myself leaving there after the smaller mom-and-pop shop with the entrepreneurship piece and I started selling life insurance. And I got a call one day to find out if I was interested in joining Marygrove College.

John Ambrose [00:05:49]: And so the decision was, after they made me an offer, that I would go and earn my master's degree in education. And so when I got to the point of— I think it was, you got to do 6 months. So after my 6-month probation period in the, the start of the career, I started the program. And so I had my master's degree in education. And the Sister Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary there who ran Marygrove College— and I knew very little about the college when I, I started to work there. But that was the primary reason for going. So I got this wonderful lesson about the history of Detroit, but it was also my first foray into Catholic school education and kind of the mission of the Catholic Church as well as that particular sect for these— by the Sister Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And I mean, they were a gritty group of sisters and they did not take any, any stuff from any man or any woman for that matter.

John Ambrose [00:06:47]: And I mean, just the history of being the— in Detroit and how they became— went from being all-female to co-ed in the '60s. So it was quite the journey. And later to find out that my older sister had actually gotten her degree from there. And then, so there was a lot of connective tissue, but just things I had never really paid attention to. But it was a— and still is today— a beautiful campus. They just don't do college degrees anymore, undergraduate or master's. They are now a K-12 school, actually supported by the University of Michigan Ann Arbor and used— being used as a teaching lab for K-12 education and a part of the Detroit Public School System, community school district system. So they are continuing to educate and provide opportunities and access for Detroiters to education.

John Ambrose [00:07:35]: But that's kind of a, a short brief about how I got from my bachelor's degree to my master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:41]: So talk to me a little bit about going as a first-generation college student, as an undergraduate student. When you go to— when you go to graduate school, you're still a first-generation college student. It's a little bit different. There's different expectations, there's different thoughts and ways in which you have to, have to pivot to be successful in that journey itself, different than what it was in undergrad. And you had gone from undergrad to work and then now transitioning back into school. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, you were successful, but what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

John Ambrose [00:08:27]: As I mentioned, I, I did 6.5, so part of the reason, or even the change in the major, had a lot to do with my GPA in undergrad. So I'd gotten myself into trouble, got myself out of trouble while I was there, but my GPA didn't rise to the level of being regularly admitted to graduate school. So when I got there and I ended up on probation my first year, but was quickly taken off of probation after my first semester. So I ended up graduating with a, I think a 3.98 or 5 or something like that with my graduate degree from Marygrove. The process was interesting, Chris, because I, I mean, let's just keeping it honest. I was making less working for Marygrove than I did when I left college. As a newly minted graduate, college graduate, I made more out of college than I was making when I went there, but they were paying for my degree. So it became one of those investment moments, and I was married, and now I have a mortgage, and I've got car notes, and I've got all these bills, and there's not enough money coming in the door for doing the work.

John Ambrose [00:09:41]: So it was a tough decision, but my wife said, "Hey, we'll make the sacrifice for 2 years for you to do this if this is what you want to do." So we had one of the two kids at that at that time, and then the second child came during the process of working on my master's degree. But a little bit like I hear some of my friends say about having grandchildren, they said, "If we knew grandchildren would be this much fun, I would have had them first and then done the kids second." And so I would tell you, for me, with a master's degree, if, if I had known that a master's degree was going to be that much fun, I would have done it first rather than doing the bachelor's degree. I'd never really taken discussion-based coursework, and so being in a setting where I allowed to converse and talk about my opinions and my thoughts about how I felt about certain educational aspects and thinking about the history of my K-12 or K-16 journey, it really opened my eyes to the ability and how learning could be different. And so I took my classes on the weekend. They weren't during the week, so they didn't interfere with my 9 to 5. I was given some time off to do my, my studies and homework during the work week. So I was given, I think, 5 hours a week so that I had opportunity to, to work on my studies. But I had as much on my plate during graduate school and maybe more in terms of the pressure.

John Ambrose [00:11:06]: But the ability to focus and have support was interesting from my— when I think about the juxtaposition between my undergraduate years and my graduate years of what was on my plate. I had a lot of part-time jobs in undergraduate, and my mom would often tell me my priorities were a little askew and it— It would just grab me by my nerves because I didn't fully understand or contemplate what she was really saying. So it wasn't until later when I was working on my master's that I began to understand what she was saying. It wasn't that I had too much on my plate. It was what I was prioritizing about what was on my plate that made all the difference in the world. And so going back to get my master's degree, I didn't have a goal for— at the time for what it was going to mean. What I had come to understand, and I had learned this in undergraduate, it really doesn't matter to the degree that you hold. What matters is that you find a place in working— in working America where people— where you fit, whatever the work is.

John Ambrose [00:12:10]: Um, but having a degree says a lot about who you are, and mostly that's why it exists as a caveat for, "This is the reason that we will hire you." Now, of course, there are disciplines, uh, being a doctor or, you know, a nurse or other things where you've got to have the background and understanding about those things, but there are a lot of things in in jobs and careers that exist, that it helps if you have a degree, but it doesn't matter that you have the very specific degree. And I think it's one of the myths that exists in a lot of people's mindsets about what education is and what it can do for you. But for me, it has opened a, a large variety of doors and opportunities. So when I got ready, I didn't know at the time when I took the job that I was going to— once I got my master's degree, that I was going to transition into higher ed. My intention was to go back to selling life insurance and move up in, in that particular industry. But I knew having an advanced degree of any type was going to be able to help me. And the reason I did the master's in ed with a focus on adult learning was I knew I wanted to manage adults. And so I've always felt that if you can teach, you can lead.

John Ambrose [00:13:22]: So understanding education and how it fit into the ethos of the work world. But that's the biggest thing, Ian, sis, no matter what your degree is in, can you articulate how those specific, uh, tenets actually connect to the career that you're focused on or the new thing that you want to do? Can you make the correlation so that when you're interviewing, you have the ability to help the search committee understand how you view that connection? And I've been very successful in being able to do that over the years of taking the full complement of all of the things that I've done and bring those to bear in the places that I've gone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: Now, as you said, you got a degree with the focus on adult learning, and you said you wanted to work with adults. And over the years, you stayed in higher education and working— you do work with adults, but you also work with many younger individuals as they were transitioning in and through their undergraduate experience. So as you look back and you think about the degree that you received and, and how that has helped you through your experience. If you think back now, would you change— would you choose the same program or path, and why or why not?

John Ambrose [00:14:36]: I think I choose the same path in the program. I see the young people as high school seniors or juniors as young adults, and I won't get into the debates about where they are and, and, you know, the development of their frontal cortex and all of that stuff, but their experience and exposure to more adult items has far surpassed the kinds of things that I was exposed to at their age. And so in a lot of ways socially, they're ready to have conversations that they're not really fully developed to have. And so they still struggle a bit, I think, in terms of understanding, but they appreciate being able to wrestle with it themselves if you give them the opportunity to do it. But I wouldn't change any of it. I, I love the path, uh, and how I found higher education. I think it gives me a unique story. And I find the— I mean, I knew I loved higher ed when I got to college, and there were plenty of days that I wanted to quit during my undergraduate, but there was far too much— many other positive things going on.

John Ambrose [00:15:39]: And once I got connected to the right mentors, they started to help me see life and navigate life differently. It wasn't that we were talking about my discipline or they were trying to help me understand my career. Options better, but they were helping me navigate life in a way that I, you know, had my father been around, I would've been looking for him, I think, to help me with the navigation for that. So I just came to experience and see higher ed very differently because of that. And it helped me to understand that we're not doing a great job of helping Americans understand what education really is. It's not a transactional effort that leads to these things. It is an opportunity for you to understand that there are greater layers and depths to us as individuals. When you think about— you get up every day in the morning and most of us have a mirror in the bathroom, but very few of us have a mirror that shows us the complete picture of who you are, 360 degrees.

John Ambrose [00:16:48]: So even if you have a dressing mirror, you know, maybe you're just checking to make sure if you're that meticulous about your outfit. But again, most people don't. So you kind of get dressed, you check the front, and you go about your merry way. Education gives you an opportunity to think about the full 360-degree and gives you the confidence that you don't have to check the back if the front looks good. But oftentimes we get so consumed in other parts of what we think it is. So we think by having all of those additional mirrors, it's— it's display of vanity or of pride. And not everybody needs to know what I look like from behind and all of those types of things. But it's not about that.

John Ambrose [00:17:30]: It really is about you and how you connect with other people and how you want to be seen by other people. And what do you really want to do? Most of us want to help other people, but we have no idea how to— especially once we become adults, we have no idea how to get out of our own way. And then we start thinking about, well, it's going to take me another 8 years. Well, if the good Lord lets you live another 8 years, what are you going to do with the 8 years? Are you going to continue to suffer through where you are, or are you going to decide and make a decision today? I'm going to invest this next 8 years or this next 3 years so that the last 5 years or the next 5 years beyond that can be more in line with what I really want to do, so that you don't have any regrets. But that's what it's about. So even when I talk with young people today about getting their undergraduate degree, it's not about what do you want to do for the rest of your life, it's what do you think you to do for the first 3 years after college, because they're going to change and they're going to have way more jobs than we ever did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: Now, I guess as you think about the experience that you went through as a graduate student, everybody learns something. You're— you've got your soft skill or your hard skills and your soft skills that you're learning as you go through that experience. What would you say are the specific skills that you felt that you developed most in graduate school?

John Ambrose [00:18:49]: Listening. Was probably the biggest one. I also developed my writing skills and became a better writer. But the listening was not just listening to others. It was listening to myself talk. And I talked about confidence a moment ago. I developed a new type of confidence, but I also developed a new ear. And I realized that I liked learning because sometimes you get to, to a certain point in your adult life and everything you've learned up to that point, you figure you've got it figured out.

John Ambrose [00:19:18]: And then you have all these little small moments where things get added to that learning. But you don't acknowledge those. And that's the listening part that helped me out along the way because, you know, I, I stubbed my toe, I'd done okay, I was still continuing to do okay. And I felt like this was really, you know, it, but, but I had not made the decision, as I said, consciously that I was going to stay in higher ed. And so as I began to listen to the things that were happening around me, I knew, but I knew that I was going to stay in higher ed. It before I actually started my graduate level courses. So I knew that having a master's degree was going to do more for me in higher education than it was going to do for me in corporate America. So it's not that it wasn't going to help me, but I knew having this Master of Education, having made the decision to stay in higher education before I started my coursework and being admitted, was going to matter.

John Ambrose [00:20:12]: So I learned those things about myself. I learned that I have more grit than I thought I did. I was prepared to make some sacrifices, but I had no idea the full level of sacrifices I was going to have to make as a dad, as a husband, as a, as an employee. I had to address a lot of things going through the process. I had to deal with the shame from my past, you know, not doing well academically in my undergraduate. I had to relive that, but I had to own it, and I had to— I wasn't prepared to own it. I, I mean, I did it in the, in the moment, and I knew what it was, but I just thought they were going to admit me or deny me. I didn't know probation was an option.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:49]: I really appreciate you sharing that, and I Jazz, going back to when you first started your graduate program, what's one thing that you wish that someone would have told you about graduate school before you had started?

John Ambrose [00:21:02]: I wish they would have talked to me more about the format of the classes and gotten me more excited about, like I said, discussion-based classes and the format. It might have helped me do a search or, or consider things differently. I think it would have also helped to even talk about, from an onboarding standpoint, It's great to give me all of the software applications that I'm going to need, and you're going to need a laptop, and you're going to need all these things, but it would have been helpful, I think, to really talk about the sacrifices that your family's going to have to make, that I'm going to have to make. Depending on the kind of reader you are— and when I say kind of reader, I mean at what speed do you read? You know, I didn't really learn to skim read until my senior year in college, but the kind of reader I needed to be for graduate-level work was completely different. So I think there are some nuance pieces there, especially for folks who are— who might have a degree, may have been out of undergraduate for quite a while, and are thinking now they want to get back into it. You know, what does it really take? It's not that you can't do it, but what are the adjustments that I need to make? What are some things that I can do to prepare, to get ready? So I, I think there's a different kind of preparation or preparatory stages that we can help adults prepare themselves to get mentally ready for what it looks like and to even talk about what is this going to mean for your family? What are the kind of things that you need to negotiate with them? Like, my wife telling me she was going to support me, man, that's wonderful, and it, it means a lot, but she didn't have any idea about the kinds of sacrifices she was gonna need to make. I'm pretty sure she thought, oh, you know, it was like— but every weekend for 2 years, I was absorbed either in work or in school, so there was no, hey, let's go to the movies, or can we take the baby to the zoo, or can we go to the park or do something like that. So I very, very, very few days off from being a student.

John Ambrose [00:22:59]: And that 5 hours a week, while it was great to get from the employer, it wasn't enough. You need a lot more than that. So on the weekends when I wasn't in class, I spent a lot of time working study groups. So working with my peers and being there. But when you finish— and it's 2 years, it's not forever— and that's the commitment. So that part I was clear about. All of the work in between, the mental adjustments, then the micro adjustments, So the macro, you can kind of figure out. It's the micro adjustments.

John Ambrose [00:23:30]: What, you know, what are the kind of skill sets and things again? What are the things I could work on to be a little better at? And what does it mean? Like, have you ever had discussion-based classes? Like, we only do that now, I think, for online classes. Like, hey, have you ever had an online class? And I did my first online classes in grad school, and I had, I think, one or two. And man, that was a huge change. You realize all your academic experiences have been in the classroom.— with other people and being able to adjust and get feedback and have those moments. But when you're doing coursework online for the first time, it can be very different. There are definitely some adjustments that need to be made.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:08]: You definitely do. Uh, as we finish up today, in thinking about success, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that are thinking about maybe going back, whether it be in education, business, medicine, whatever it may be, what are some tips that you might offer other considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

John Ambrose [00:24:29]: Don't look at the degree as an opportunity to increase your income. Look at it as an opportunity to develop yourself and to provide opportunities for you to become a different type of version of yourself. If you're just looking to add a degree 'cause it's gonna help improve your income, I suppose that's okay. But I don't think that that's going to be enough to satisfy you, especially when things may get harder. I've got a mentee who every time professionally he hits a ceiling, if you will, and he wants to break through the glass ceiling, he finds a way to go and get another degree. So he just got a law degree from Yale. But prior to that, he's got, I think, 3 other master's degrees prior to going to get his law degree from Yale. But he kept hitting a ceiling and was like, I need more education.

John Ambrose [00:25:22]: So he, he— go sacrifice, go find the right hammer to break through the ceiling, get through. Not— there are a lot of other ways to do that. I've got a different mentee and she negotiates. She didn't necessarily— she went and got her graduate degree after successfully negotiating career changes 3 or 4 times. And when I asked her, I was like, so why did you finally go get it now? She was like, I just really wanted to know more about this particular subject because she'd had enough opportunities where she was still able to navigate successfully without the information and do it, but she decided because she wanted it for herself. And that's the biggest thing I think when you think about graduate-level work is I would encourage you to want it for yourself more than, again, just looking to enhance your paychecks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, John, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. I really appreciate that, and I truly wish you all the best.

John Ambrose [00:26:16]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:17]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in —your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before:

"Make your application stand out."

And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be:

Okay… but how?

Because when you look at what a graduate application requires—your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview—it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically "connect."

You may even be thinking:

• "How do I pull all of this together?"
• "How do I make sure I'm not just listing accomplishments?"
• "How do I explain my journey without oversharing?"
• "What if my path hasn't been perfectly linear?"

Let me reassure you right from the start:

A clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling.

And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate-level work… They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next.

Today, I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that.

Why narrative matters in a graduate school application

Admissions committees read a lot of applications.

And I mean a LOT.

Many applicants have:

• strong GPAs
• relevant work experience
• volunteer involvement
• leadership roles
• certifications
• awards

So what makes one applicant memorable over another?

Often, it's this:

Clarity.

A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions:

1. Who is this person?
2. Why graduate school—and why now?
3. Where are they going, and how will this program help them get there?

If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine—even if you don't have the "perfect" resume.

A key mindset shift: you're not just applying—you're introducing yourself

Here's something I tell students all the time:

Your application is not a transaction. It's a story.

It's not:

"Here are my documents. Please accept me."

It's:

"Here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared. Here's where I want to go. And here's why your program is the bridge between my present and my future."

When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write—especially your personal statement.

Step 1: Find your "through line" (the story that connects everything)

The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything.

But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line.

A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences like a string connecting beads.

It might be:

• a passion (equity in education, mental health advocacy, community-based research)
• a professional goal (becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers)
• a lived experience that shaped your direction
• a problem you want to solve

Ask yourself:

"What's the theme that runs through my experiences?"

And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme—I've done all kinds of things…

That's okay. Most people have.

Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first. It often sounds like:

• "I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems."
• "I want to bridge the gap between access and opportunity."
• "I'm motivated by the belief that small interventions can create big outcomes."
• "I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem-solving."

Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward.

Step 2: Use the "Past → Present → Future" structure

This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks for graduate admissions.

It works in personal statements. It works in interviews. It works in letters of intent.

Here it is:

Past: What shaped you?

What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest?

Present: What are you doing now?

What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed that shows readiness?

Future: Where are you going?

What goals do you have—and how does this program help you reach them?

If your application materials align with this structure, the admissions committee will feel confident recommending you.

Step 3: Turn your experiences into meaning—not just a list

Here's a common mistake:

Applicants list experiences like they're writing a résumé in paragraph form.

Example:

"I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention."

That's not bad—but it's incomplete.

What's missing?

Meaning.

Instead, you want to show what your experiences taught you and how they shaped your goals.

Try this approach:

• What did I do?
• What did I learn?
• How did it shape what I want next?

Example upgrade:

"Through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how often early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescents."

See the difference?

Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done. They want to know what you've become because of it.

Step 4: Be specific about your goals (without boxing yourself in)

Another common challenge: applicants worry they have to have everything figured out.

Let me say this clearly:

You do not need to have a 10-year plan mapped out.

But you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic, and connected to the program.

Weak goal:

"I want to advance my career and make a difference."

Strong goal:

"I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma, with the long-term goal of working in community mental health settings."

Strong goal (leadership):

"I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives, using data-informed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion."

Specific doesn't mean rigid. Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction.

Step 5: Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to

This is where applications rise or fall.

Admissions committees can immediately tell the difference between:

• an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and
• an application written with intention for their program

The key is to connect your story to their resources.

Look at:

• curriculum
• concentrations
• internship/clinical placements
• research labs
• faculty expertise
• student organizations
• capstone projects
• community partnerships

Then, write sentences like:

• "The emphasis on ___ aligns with my interest in ___."
• "I'm particularly drawn to the course ___ because it supports my goal of ___."
• "I'm excited by the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes ___."

This is not flattery. This is alignment.

Step 6: Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative

Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize:

Admissions committees aren't only reading your personal statement.

They're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story.

Your application should "agree" with itself:

• Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement
• Your recommendations should reinforce your strengths and readiness
• Your writing sample should match your academic potential
• Your goals should match the program you selected

You don't want contradictions like:

• personal statement says you want research, but resume shows no research involvement
• goals say "clinical practice," but nothing shows people-facing experience
• statement says you're passionate about X but never explains where it came from

You want the committee to feel:

"Yes. This makes sense. This applicant is ready."

Step 7: Use a "signature sentence" to make your narrative memorable

Want a simple way to stand out?

Create one sentence that captures your story.

Something like:

• "I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and community access for youth."
• "My goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems."
• "I'm committed to using evidence-based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations."

Then weave that idea throughout your application materials.

It becomes your anchor. Your north star.

And it makes your narrative easy to remember.

A quick checklist: Does your application tell a clear story?

Before you submit, ask yourself:

• Can someone summarize my story in 2–3 sentences after reading my materials?
• Do my experiences clearly connect to my goals?
• Does my application explain why graduate school now?
• Did I clearly explain why this program is the right fit?
• Does my tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine?

If yes, you're in an excellent position.

One final encouragement

If you're worried that your story isn't impressive enough, I want you to hear this:

Graduate admissions committees aren't looking for perfect people.

They're looking for:

• purpose
• readiness
• alignment
• growth
• potential

And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume.

It's built from knowing:

who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward.

And if you can communicate that clearly?

You will stand out.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And this week is another solo episode. I'm going to talk to you about another question that has been submitted. And this week we're going to be talking about how you can ensure that your graduate school application tells a clear story about you and your goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before. Make your application stand out. And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be okay. But how? Anyway? Because when you look at what a graduate application requires, your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview, it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically connect. May even be thinking, how do I pull all of this together? How do I make sure I'm not just listening accomplishments? How do I explain my journey without oversharing? And what if my path hasn't been perfectly linear? Well, let me reassure you right from the start, a clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling. And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate level work. They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: Today I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that. So why does narrative matter in a graduate school application? Well, admission committees read a lot of applications, especially at competitive institutions. And I mean a lot of applications. Many Applicants have strong GPAs, relevant work experience, volunteer involvement, leadership roles, certifications, awards. So what makes one one applicant memorable over another? Often it's this clarity. A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions. First, who is this person? Second, why graduate school and why now? And third, where are they going and how will this program help them get there? If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine even if you don't have the perfect resume. Now, a key mindset shift that you're probably not just applying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:36]: Here's a key mindset shift. You're not just applying. You're introducing yourself. Here's something I tell students all the time. Your application is not a transaction. It's a story. It's not, here are my documents. Please accept me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: It's here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared, here's where I want to go, and here's why. Your program is the bridge between my present and my future. When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write, especially your personal statement. So step one with this is to find your through line. It's that story that connects everything you see. The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:25]: But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line. A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences, like a string connecting beads. It might be a passion, such as equity in education, mental health advocacy, community based research, or a professional goal. Becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers, or a lived experience that shaped your direction or a problem that you want to solve. So ask yourself, what's a theme that runs through my experiences? And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme, I've done all kinds of things. That's okay, most people have. Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:12]: It often sounds like I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems, or I want to bridge the gap across access and opportunity. Or I'm motivated by my belief that small interventions can create big outcomes. Or even I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem solving. Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward. The second part of this is to use the past, present, and future structure. This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks in for graduate admissions. It works in personal statements. It works in interviews.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:55]: It works in letters of intent. And here it is. So, the past. What shaped you? What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest? The present. What are you doing now? What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed? That shows readiness and the future. Where are you going? What goals do you have, and how does this program help you reach them? If your application materials align with this structure, the admission committee will feel confident recommending you. Third step turn your experiences into meaning and not just a list. Here's a common mistake.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:33]: Applicants list experiences like they're writing a resume in paragraph form. For example, I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention. It's not bad, but it's incomplete. Well, what's missing? The meaning. Instead, you want to show what your experience taught you and how that shaped your goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: So try this approach. What did I do? What did I learn and how did it shape what I want next? So using that past example that I just said to you instead, what if it reads through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescence. Do you see the difference? Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done, they want to know what you've become because of it. The fourth step Be specific about your goals without boxing yourself in. Another common challenge Applicants worry. No, another common challenge that we tend to see is that applicants worry they have to have everything figured out. Let me say this clearly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: Let me say this clearly. You do not need to have a 10 year plan mapped out, but you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic and connected to the program. So here's an example of a weak goal. I want to advance my career and make a difference. Now, a strong goal would be I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma with the long term goal of working in community mental health settings. Another example, another strong example that would that might give you some sense might be for someone that wants to do something in higher education leadership. If that's the case, you could say I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives using data informed formed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion. Specific doesn't mean rigid.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction. Step 5 Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to. This is where applications rise or fall. Admission committees can immediately tell the difference between an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and an application written with intention for their program. The key is to connect your story to their resources. So as you're doing that, you want to take some time to look at curriculum concentrations, internship and clinical placements, research labs, faculty expertise, student organizations, capstone projects, and community partnerships. And then write sentences like the emphasis on aligns with my interest in blank or I'm particularly drawn to the course and you add it in because it supports my goal of whatever that is. Or even I'm excited about the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes and then you add that in as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:51]: This is not flattery, this is alignment. Step 6 Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative. Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize. Admission committees aren't only reading your personal statement they're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story. Your application should agree with itself. Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement, your recommendation should reinforce your strengths and readiness, your writing samples should match your academic potential, and your goals should match the program you selected. You don't want contradictions, such as a personal statement that says that you want research, but your resume shows no research involvement or goals that say you want to be involved in clinical practice, but nothing shows people facing experiences, or a statement that says that you're passionate about this, but you never explain where that came from. You want the committee to feel yes, this makes sense and this applicant is ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]: And the final step is to use a signature sentence to make your narrative memorable. If you want a simple way to stand out, create one sentence that captures your story. For example, I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and and community access for youth. Or my goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems. Or even I'm committed to using evidence based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations. Then you can weave that idea throughout your application materials. It becomes your anchor, your North Star, and it makes your narrative easy to remember. So as we finish up today, a couple of things to remember does your application tell a clear story? Before you submit your application, ask yourself these questions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:41]: Can someone summarize your story in two to three sentences after reading your materials? Does your experiences do your experiences clearly connect to your goals? Does your application explain why graduate school now? Did you clearly explain why this program is the right fit? And does your tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine? If yes, you're in an excellent position. So if you're worried that your story isn't impressive isn't impressive enough, I I want you to hear this. Graduate admission committees aren't looking for perfect people. They're looking for purpose, readiness, alignment, growth, and potential. And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume. It's built from knowing who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward. And if you can communicate that clearly, you will definitely stand out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:39]: If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school but not quite sure if it's the right step? Or maybe you're simply curious how others have navigated the transition from undergraduate life or the workforce into advanced study. The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone embarking on or contemplating this journey.

Host Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint, sits down with Dr. Anne Jonas, assistant professor in human-centered design and human-computer interactions, to unravel the twists and turns of her academic journey. Their conversation is packed with practical wisdom, honest reflections, and encouragement for prospective and current grad students alike.

Key Takeaways from the Conversation

One of the key themes that emerges from this episode is the importance of intentionality. Dr. Anne Jonas didn't go straight from college to graduate school. Instead, she gained valuable experience in the nonprofit sector, which helped her identify why she wanted to return for further study and what she hoped to achieve. She encourages prospective students to "really know why you're going to graduate school"—not just to continue the routine of education, but because you have a true purpose and passion to pursue.

Another significant focus of the discussion is finding the right fit. Dr. Anne Jonas shares how she evaluated potential programs based on faculty interests, curriculum, and the kind of research being done. She emphasizes the value of looking for communities—both academic and personal—that will support you, reminding listeners that "no one person can provide all the support and mentorship" you'll need.

The episode also tackles the challenges of transitioning back into academia, particularly the self-management and independence required at the graduate level. Dr. Anne Jonas describes how she learned to balance work, study, and life, and the critical role her supportive community played in her success.

Why Listen?

Whether you're worried about finances, choosing between programs, or simply need reassurance that there's no single path to grad school success, this episode offers grounded, relatable advice. It's a reminder that with intentional choices, strong support networks, and flexibility, your grad school journey can be deeply rewarding.

Tune into this episode of "Victors in Grad School" for a conversation that just might help you find your own path forward.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week we are on a journey together. And I know I say that every week, but it really is true. The journey that you are on as a graduate student is truly that it is a journey. It is not always going to be a linear path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: There are going to be sometimes some circuitous routes to get you to where you want to be and to get you to being able to meet the goals that you have set for yourself. And this podcast is here to help you on that journey every week. I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can share their own experiences in going through graduate school to help you find success sooner. This week we've got another great guest. Dr. Ann Jonas is with us today, and Ann is a faculty member here at the University of Michigan, Flint. She's an assistant professor and working in human centered design and human computer interactions. And I'm really excited to be able to learn more about her as well as more about her own experience in going through graduate school and all of this that will help you in your own journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: Anne, thanks so much for joining us today.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:01:27]: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And I always start these opportunities really turning the clock back in time. And what I would love to do is I want to go back in time, back to your days at Brown University, or maybe a little bit after Brown University, because I know you did your undergraduate work at Brown University. And then at some point after going out working, doing research, you know, working at a number of different places, you made a choice, you made a decision, and there was a point in time where you said, said it's time and I'm ready to move to the next phase of my education. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that graduate school was the right time? What that graduate school was the. Was that it was the right time for you to go to graduate school. And that led you forward.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:02:16]: Sure. So I will say, when I was in college, I didn't really, even though I had many wonderful teachers who were graduate students, I didn't have a clear sense that graduate school was an option outside of kind of the professionalized paths of pre law, medical school, et cetera. And so I didn't really see that as something that I would do. And so I went out and worked in nonprofits for quite some time. And I think in that process I. I knew some people who went to graduate school and so I learned a little bit more about it, but I never really was ready to take that step. Early on, I think I was concerned about kind of job security and job availability and cost even. I had learned that many PhD programs and some master's programs provide funding.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:03:07]: I still wanted to make sure that it was something that was going to be financially viable choice for me. And so it was really important to me to kind of get some work experience under my belt before I went to graduate school and to really know like, why I was going to graduate school and not just kind of rely on that as like someone who'd always been at school and always done well at school. I wanted to kind of push myself to do something else and to only go to graduate school if it really, really made sense with kind of what I wanted for my future. So I was very happy in non profits for quite some time. And then I guess about four or five years after I graduated from college, I worked the Barnard center for Research on Women, Barnard College in New York. And being there, a big part of my job was bringing academics to speak at the college and organizing different events, as well as kind of facilitating communication and other kind of programming between scholars and practitioners, artists in all different sorts of fields. And so I was really at that time being exposed to all of these wonderful people doing all of these amazing things, many of whom had taken the graduate school path. And because I was working at a university, I was also lucky enough in combination with some of my prior experiences, to be able to take graduate classes at the Teachers College of New York at Columbia University, because Barnard and Teachers College and Columbia are all part of one university.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:04:37]: And so once I started doing that, then I really was like, okay, there's something really interesting to me here. I had always been interested in the Internet, particularly the social side of the Internet. I had done some classes in what we call modern culture and media when I was in college, but more from that kind of media studies humanities perspective. And take the classes at Teachers College really allowed me to get a little bit more of the social sciences perspective and really realize, okay, this is an area that I would be interested in doing research on. And that was the point where I was like, okay, I think I have a reason to go to graduate school. There's something that I would like to study. I have enough work experience that I feel comfortable that if I come out of graduate school and I'm not taking an academic path that I can continue the kind of work that I had been doing. And so that was when I kind of decided to set about looking into different programs and taking the leap of applying to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:33]: So let's continue unpacking that because you spent many years is on the east coast and I know where you ended up. You ended up out on the west coast at the University of California, Berkeley. But I guess talk to me about that. You said you started a process of trying to identify where you might want it to be and you ended up at the far other side of the country. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what ultimately led you to UC Berkeley. And what was it about that that really stood out and made you decide that that was the right fit for you?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:06:06]: Yeah, I think my top priority in looking into graduate school programs were first the program, what am I going to be expected to do and is that going to align with kind of the goals that I have for what I want to research and kind of why I want to go to graduate school. And then there were some just like practical limitations. I'm very unfortunately monolingual. I don't speak another language. Many programs require that you have proficiency or fluency in another language. Similarly with like computer programming, I didn't have those skills. And so I was looking for programs that matched both the skills that I had and where I could do the kind of work that I wanted to do. And so that was important to me.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:06:46]: But I think the thing that was most important to me was looking into the faculty in different programs and saying, okay, who's doing the kind of research that I want to do in the areas that I want to do it and are they accepting new students? And then is the program in alignment? So those were kind of the big things for me is like the faculty and then the program structure. I looked all over the country and a little bit outside the country, you know, and just kind of did my research on the programs, on the people. I think I ended up applying to like eight PhD programs, something like that. I loved being in New York and love. But I didn't find a program in New York that felt like it was the right fit for me. So I didn't end up applying to any there that I can recall. So yeah, and with Berkeley in particular, I had a friend who was in that program. So I had been exposed to it and there was a scholar that I really admired, whose work I'd followed for, for a long time, who had graduated from that program.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:07:44]: And so that was familiar to me in those ways. Yeah. And I think that was kind of most of how I went about it more generally. And I was deciding between maybe we'll get to this. But for me, I applied to a mixture of programs in education departments, American Studies department, Anthropology department, and then Schools of Information, which is where I ended up, which is a more interdisciplinary program. But I was kind of looking, I knew I wanted to do some sort of more interdisciplinary research, but those were kind of the options that I was considering to take kind of a different angle on things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: Let's definitely talk about that. Because when you're looking at different programs, some people might automatically assume they're all going to be in the same type of college with the same type of requirements, with the same type of curriculum. And as you said, your specific discipline definitely is not. It can be found in different areas with different expectations. So talk to me about that and what you had to really look at to figure out for yourself what was going to be that best fit for you.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:08:46]: Yeah. So I think again, I would look at program structure, so I looked at what kind of courses are required, and then I would look at like, what kind of research are students and faculty putting out, what kind of venues are they publishing in, and again, what kind of skills are required either beforehand or once you're there. And I think that that curriculum piece was really important for me. I think like, interdisciplinarity is like very attractive to a lot of people because there's just so much out there. And it's really exciting to be able to pull from different areas. But I always say like, one of the, the trade offs that you have to consider is I think in a, a disciplinary program you really are given a foundation, you know, you're disciplined into a particular subset of knowledge and kind of given a very clear framework in which you're interacting and which you're contributing to. With interdisciplinary programs and research, you're much more going to be for putting that together and figuring out like, what kind of intervention are you making, who are you speaking to, what are you building on, and how are you going to hold yourself accountable to a different research community. So I think there's kind of a trade off of like depth and breadth there.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:10:01]: And then whichever I knew, whichever way I went, I was going to need to like supplement the other side. So if I went into a kind of more traditional disciplinary program like anthropology, then I knew I would have to make an effort to kind of bring in other fields and connect with work outside of that. And I knew if I went into a more interdisciplinary program, then I was going to have to be responsible for kind of finding out what kind of foundation I wanted to build upon for, for my research. So it was just kind of thinking about, about those trade offs. And I think ultimately I really decided that who I wanted to be in conversation with were people who were in kind of the tech world broadly. And that to me meant people coming at it from a technical perspective of computer science, as well as an arts and design perspective and a law and policy perspective. And then people like me who are more grounded in kind of social science research. But I wanted to be engaging with people from all of those different aspects.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:11:07]: And looking at some of the other programs, I think I was, you know, I thought they were really great, really exciting. But I realized I didn't want to spend two semesters learning about like the foundational literature of anthropology. I wanted instead to kind of focus, focus more on that cross disciplinary conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]: Now for every student there is a transition that they go through. When they go from being an undergraduate student, they transition potentially into the workforce like you did. They then going from the workforce back into school is another transition. But even going from undergraduate in the way that you're educated there to how you're educated in a PhD program is also a transition. So talk to me about that transition for you. And as you think back to your graduate school education, what did you have to do as you transitioned into program and what did you have to do throughout the program to be able to find success?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:11:58]: I mean, I think one of the differences for me between to some extent at least between working outside of academia and then going back to school was I think I tried pretty hard when I was working outside of academia to kind of keep work at work. Like I kept very particular hours and unless there was a big project or something like that, at the end of the day I would go home and not really have to worry about work. I think with going back to school, being back in a PhD program, I had to adjust that somewhat. And everyone's different, like you said, with their schedules and their kind of routines and ways of doing things. But it's very much there will always be more work to be done. And so kind of figuring out how to prioritize that work and maybe be take advantage of the flexibility that I think a grad school schedule can offer in terms of meeting up with people, going to Events, but then also doing reading or writing into the night, things like that. I think I had to kind of of recalibrate myself for that, for that situation. I mean, I think that project management, I think especially again being in an interdisciplinary program really required a lot of self management in terms of figuring out prioritization and projects and kind of the other thing about particularly the kind of graduate school program that I went to is it's very independent.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:13:21]: So really setting my course, you know, with feedback from advisors and, and from peers. But setting a course and kind of stick sticking to it and finding the path required a lot of being proactive and figuring things out kind of on my own. And so I think that was really helpful for me throughout the process once I kind of got the hang of it, always still learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:42]: As you think back to your graduate education, what's something that you wish that someone would have told you before you had started that would have helped you along the way?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:13:52]: I think that I got pretty good advice from people. So I think that, that things that I was told that I try to share with others is to like be very cognizant of like just logistically practically of the financial trade offs and decisions and what that's going to mean in your life and like for your family, your goals, your stability. I think having that match with faculty is really essential and really important in terms of like finding people that you align with, kind of in terms of what work you want to do, what style of work you want to do. And then I think the other thing that I really tell people that was communicated to me is that PhD programs in particular are really about research. And so unless that is like the primary thing that you want to do, then a PhD might not be the right answer. I think a lot, there are a lot of people out there who really enjoy learning and you know, so they think, oh well, maybe graduate school or a PhD in particular is the, the way to go. And I think there's so many different ways to kind of go about pursuing a love of learning. And one just needs to be aware that with a PhD in particular, there is really that research component that is at the forefront.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: Every graduate student has to find that balance for themselves, that balance of school, work, family, other commitments. And sometimes that can be difficult because you're trying to figure out that, that perfect spot for yourself, that sweet spot for yourself. So how did you find balance for yourself in looking at all of those different responsibilities? And what are some things either that you put in place or things that helped you to find success in balancing things while going through graduate school.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:15:43]: I think that it was always really important for me to have a support system and kind of a community both within and outside of graduate school. And I know people who really wanted to keep those worlds separate. And I think that's a totally valid approach. Your graduate school does not need to be your social community. For me, it often was. And for me that was really wonderful and supportive that I was able to have people who understood that wild kind of world of academia and were in a similar position. I was lucky in that there were only two other people in my cohort in my year in my graduate program. And we were all kind of doing pretty different things, but also had some overarching overlapping interests so that we were really able to like, understand and respect and connect on each other's work, but also that we were working on different enough things.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:16:39]: And I also think just our personalities, that it never felt like competitive because I think that can be something that's really hard for some people during the graduate school process. And so, yeah, for me, one of the best parts of graduate school was my peers. I was very close to the other students in my graduate program and in the master's program that was attached to the same department that I was in. And that was, I think, just a huge benefit to me in getting through graduate school both like socially and professionally. But again, I don't think it needs to be that way. I think it's different for everybody. It was also useful certainly to have people in my life who were outside of that world so that I wasn't only kind of tunnel vision on that one perspective. And I also, I had some friends who, you know, I started running, I would run with my friends.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:17:28]: That was, you know, a very important practice practice for me and kind of promoting like my overall wellness like while being in graduate school. I think it's nice, it's good to like have those other pieces in your life, whatever it is, for one, that helps have a more holistic experience because it certainly can feel all consuming if you let it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: And talk to me about the research process for yourself because not everybody is going to do a research oriented degree, but a PhD definitely is. So talk to me about, about the research process yourself and how you sustained yourself through that process because especially in a PhD program, it can be a long haul and having to keep moving forward to meet those milestones. So talk to me about that and what you had to do to be able to set yourself up to being able to finish in the End it.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:18:17]: Is so different for everyone. You know, I mean, I think the, the research process, but for me, I was in a model that was again, much more independent. So I really had to figure out, like, is this project going to look like. And that changed very much just based on, honestly, like, logistics and practicality access, the sort of projects that I thought I was going to do early on in my PhD, I couldn't find a good place to do them. And so I had to pivot and kind of figure out other ways of going about it, which I think eventually was for the best, but, you know, required some flexibility and curiosity about, like, okay, how might I get at different parts of these research questions if what I expected is not available to me? I also was lucky to be able to participate in some other projects, research projects that were not. I knew from entering my PhD program what I wanted to focus on in my research, but I think it was really beneficial for me to be in on some other projects that were on separate topics, but with kind of connective tissue where I could explore different research techniques, collaborate with people and try different things out and kind of see what worked. So it will. It wasn't just my, my project.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:19:32]: And I think, like, throughout, from the beginning of graduate school through to now, the big thing with research is that just like, resiliency and like, recognizing that everybody hits extreme roadblocks. I'm sure many people do. The classic story of I had just scheduled an really amazing field work about my, I believe, my fourth year of my PhD. It was basically what I had wanted to do in many ways since the beginning. I was gonna travel to do ethnographic research in a particular community. I was very excited. I felt like, you know, I'd done research, but I was like, this is really gonna change my whole trajectory. And then that was in March of 2020, and, you know, the whole thing got shut down due to the COVID pandemic.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:20:14]: So I think it's just that ability to be flexible, be committed enough to a project that you're interested in seeing it through for a long time, and that it has, like, a few different pieces that you can really dig into, but also being flexible enough that you can kind of adjust based on real world conditions, your own interest, interest. Things change in the field, especially in something like technology, so quickly that I think combination of, like, commitment and flexibility is really essential.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: And finally today, looking back at your own graduate school experience, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education, whether it be in computer science, business or whatever degree that would help them find success sooner.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:20:56]: I'm a big believer in community support. You know, I think that definitely it's really important to find, like I mentioned, faculty advisors who are a good fit. But I also think that no one person is going to be able to provide all of the support and mentorship you need in going through something like graduate school. And so I think it's really essential to build connections with a range of faculty and peers and kind of people in the community who you can kind of get different kinds of support and advice from. You know, like maybe you have the one friend who you see at conferences who is going to be someone who you can exchange paper drafts with, and maybe you have someone who is going to be really good at brainstorming and someone else who really knows a particular method. I think just having that kind of community is really valuable. And it doesn't have to be within your program. It can be.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:21:57]: It doesn't have to be within your field. It can be. But I think finding that arrangement of people who can offer you support and who you can offer support to, that is like, I think the biggest piece to me in terms of like finding success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: Well, Anne, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today, for sharing your own journey and for helping others to be able to think about graduate school in a little bit different way. And I wish you all the best, of course.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:22:25]: Thanks so much. I really appreciate the invitation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:49]: Thanks again for spending time with me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:52]: As you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you a graduate student feeling the constant pressure to be flawless? Have you found yourself chasing impossible standards, believing that only perfect grades or perfect work will help you succeed? If this sounds familiar, you're not alone—and the new episode of "Victors in Grad School" is here to reassure and empower you.

In a powerful conversation between Dr. Juanita Tookes and Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Tookes shares a presentation about the Perfection Myth and dives deep into the experiences that graduate students face around perfectionism. The discussion is honest, validating, and filled with practical advice and heartfelt encouragement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes shares her personal experience as a "recovering perfectionist," normalizing the struggle and reminding listeners that striving for perfection is a common—but ultimately unrealistic—desire. She explains that perfection is a constantly shifting, subjective concept defined by societal standards, cultural expectations, and comparison (especially in the era of social media). The elusive chase for perfection can leave students feeling anxious, burnt out, and always "less than," which is neither healthy nor sustainable.

The podcast also digs into the impact of perfectionism on the brain, highlighting how a constant drive for flawlessness keeps students in a heightened state of fear and anxiety. This mindset, as Dr. Juanita Tookes explains, can deprive you of celebrating your achievements, push you toward burnout, and even negatively impact your mental and physical well-being.

Listeners will appreciate the practical discussion of perfectionist behaviors—like overworking, fearing mistakes, avoiding help, and linking self-worth to performance. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dr. Juanita Tookes reinforce that these behaviors are understandable in high-pressure environments like graduate school, especially when finances and career prospects are at stake, but they urge listeners to challenge these patterns for their own health and happiness.

As the episode wraps up, you'll find wisdom in reframing mistakes as essential for growth, embracing imperfection as courageous, and celebrating persistence over unattainable perfection. There are even valuable resources recommended, including Brene Brown's "The Gifts of Imperfection."

If you want to feel seen, inspired, and equipped to tackle grad school without the chains of perfectionism, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in and start your journey toward a more balanced, fulfilling academic life!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: We have conversations with students, alumni, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, everyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:13]: Welcome. Really excited that you're here today, and I really appreciate you spending some time with us as we continue our student development series and partnership with our CAPS office on campus. And every term, I love being able to identify new topics that we can talk with you on to help you in the journey that you're on. And tonight I'm really excited because Dr. Juanita Tookes is back with us. And this topic, the topic that we're talking about tonight, is a really important one because a lot of times when I talk to graduate students, I hear many times that there are concerns and there's this feeling that you have to be perfect, that you have to get that a. That you always have to be at your best. And sometimes you can't always be at your best.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: Sometimes you have to be willing to be okay where you're at. And, you know, the myth of being able to be perfect all the time is definitely that it's just a Myth. So today, Dr. Tooks is going to talk about the perfection myth and how as graduate students, you can reframe and rethink about things in a little bit different way. And so I'm really excited to have her here and to have her talk with us tonight. To Tactor Tooks, I'll turn it over to you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:27]: Hello, everyone. I am so happy to be here again. As Dr. Lewis mentioned, this is a very valued partnership between the CAPS office and graduate studies. I love working with grad students, and a big part of my heart for grad students is because I remember being a grad student. I remember how hard it was. I am also recovering perfectionist. I don't know how many years in that I met that I'm at, but I will be the first to say that I suffer very badly with perfection.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:57]: And we're going to get into kind of what that looks like, how it can show up in your graduate student experience. But what I hope that you can get from this ultimately is feelings of validation. If you have gone through any of the things that we've talked about, I assure you you are not the only one. That's why I was the first to raise my hand. And I encourage you to engage in this conversation. I don't want to call it like a presentation, but feel free to use the zoom reactions. If there's anything that you relate to or anything that that really resonates with you, just use Some of the reactions, so that I know that, you know, what I'm saying is really kind of connect. You know, it's connecting with you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:40]: This is going to be an honest, transparent space. You know, it's seven o' clock in the evening, so we're kind of loosening up. You know what I mean? So this is going to be a pretty easygoing conversation. It's going to be informative, it's going to be validating, it's going to be supportive. And like I said, I hope you walk away feeling seen, but also feeling empowered. And I hope I can inspire you all to think a little bit differently about how you're navigating your graduate student experience so that you can also start improving the state of your mental health so that you can actually enjoy this journey. So let's get into the perfection myth. Okay, so the plan for the conversation today is to talk about perfection as a definition, to also talk about perfection as a concept.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:23]: We're also gonna talk about perfection as far as how does this look in your brain? So we're gonna talk a little bit about some brain stuff, and then we're also gonna talk about how does that follow up in behavior. And then we're gonna talk about what does it mean when we're talking about being perfect as a graduate student? What does that even mean? Then we're gonna go through some myths and facts, and then we're just gonna wrap up. And in that part, I'll just leave some final thoughts and hopefully have time, you know, just based off of the information that we're going to go over today. But it'll be more, you know, conversational. If there's anything that you would like to express or anything that you would like to ask, let's talk about it. I'm also going to provide you with some resources that I hope will help you if perfection is an obstacle for you. And then we'll conclude our talk for the day so that you can enjoy the rest of your night. So let's talk about perfect as a definition.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:17]: So it was really interesting just looking up the meanings of perfect. And it's not because I didn't know it offhand, but I really like looking at official definitions for words. So when I looked across several sources, the word perfect means flawless, satisfying all requirements, accurate, precise, or exact, free from faults, defects, or blemishes, being the best possible. So I just want that to sit and sink in just for a second. I want your eyes to read over these words. Flawless, satisfying all requirements, being the best Possible, free from faults, defects, blemishes. Another definition was also complete. So I want these words to just sit and sink in as we continue on throughout this conversation.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:18]: So now let's talk about the concept, the perfect as a concept. So perfect as a concept is an idealized standard. Okay, Idealized standard. It's also subjective, meaning that it can be interpreted in many different ways across many different contexts, depending on who you might be talking to. So. So depending on you might have somebody's opinion or maybe a cultural standard, an industry standard. Perfection does not have an objective type of perspective. It's more subjective based off of who you're talking to and what's going on.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:05]: It's highly influenced by society. That's why it is always changing. So let's. Let's take beauty standards, for example. What is considered beautiful now may not have been beautiful five or 10 or 20 years ago, right? So, for example, I know that, like tattoos on models, for example, in the fashion industry, I want to say maybe 10 years ago, that was no. That was a no. No. You don't show tattoos because tattoos were not considered beautiful, which is fashion models often covered them if they were walking one way or doing print work.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: But now tattoos are in, like tattoos are in. So everyone now they can be visible now they're acceptable, seen as a beautiful extension and artistic expression of someone's personality. But in the next two to three, four, five years, it could be something completely different. So there is never a stopping point for how people view beauty and beauty standards. Perfection is the same way society determines what is perfect. What does perfect mean? Who is perfect. And it can be harmful. Perfection can be harmful.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:25]: I was reading across some sources, and the sources were saying that perfection can be helpful or it can be harmful. And when it said it could be helpful, it said it could be helpful if it was used as a guide. If you use it as a guide to help you as far as, like, inspiring you, like working to such a high standard that it's inspiring you to do your best at the highest level possible without getting too high. It was kind of. I get what they were trying to say. If you aim for perfection, then you're going to put forth your best effort as far as being inspired to do your best. My concern about that, though, is everyone doesn't know where to draw the line. You know, when do I know that my good is good enough without obsessing about everything being right, you know, or complete or perfect? And that's why I don't necessarily agree that perfection can be Helpful, because most folks do not know where to draw the line, and they end up actually crossing that line into things, into a way of thinking that is unhealthy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:42]: So I. My opinion goes with, it's harmful because it's often viewed as a requirement by most folks when we talk about what shapes perfection. And I'm going back to the point about it being influenced by society. It's also shaped by expectations. It's shaped by values. It can be shaped by routines. Culture comparison is a big thing that shapes perfection comparison. And that is a huge trap that everyone has fallen into, whether they've admitted it or not.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:17]: Especially in this age of social media where we. Whether we want to or not, we see how people are succeeding in life, whether it be their job or their grades or maybe the way that they're living their life. You know, they're going on vacations three times a year, and you're still trying to save up to get somewhere. You haven't been anywhere in like, maybe five years. I know in working with grad students in particular, I know students have told me sometimes that they are busting their brain trying to study for their exams and trying to catch up on readings and things like that. And they'll go on Instagram and see one of their peers who seems to be living the time of their life. They are outside taking trips, you know, enjoying social activities with friends and family. And then the other student is at home, like, how can I do that? Like, they just.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:08]: It's perfect for them. They get great grades. They are able to have a life. I'm over here hanging on by a thread. What am I not doing? I need to work harder because I need to have that kind of a life. So it's very easy to think that you. That people achieve this standard of perfection, and it makes other people feel very discouraged in themselves that they are not at that level, which makes them push themselves harder, to very harmful extents, to achieve something that is not achievable. And we're going to get to that when we talk about myths and facts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:47]: But think about somebody pressing, pressing and pushing themselves to a limit that is not possible. And every day that they get up, they are pushing themselves to this unrealistic limit. Think about what that does with your mind. Think about what that does to your soul. Think about what that does to your physical body when you are pushing yourself to unrealistic limits every single day. So now let's talk a little bit about what goes on in the brain when you are a person who is endorsing perfection. And I also hope that with this conversation we can raise awareness about perfection. So maybe if you are someone who did not realize that your behaviors line up with being a perfectionist or acting in alignment with perfection, this can make you aware.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:41]: Not to make you ashamed, it's to make you aware so that you can modify your behavior to something that's more constructive and healthy. So perfectionism often keeps the brain in a heightened state of fear, which can result in anxiety and overthinking. This part of the brain that we're talking about is the amygdala. The amygdala is activated when you are in a constant state of fear. Because in this area of the brain, this is where you process emotions. A lot of emotional processing goes on in the amygdala, especially fear and anxiety. So this is where fight or flight is activated right there. You know, in the amygdala, rewards are for outcomes and not effort.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:27]: So this is the way cognitively that you are thinking about what you are doing, trying to reach a standard of perfection, right? So you are not going to reward yourself unless you get that perfect outcome, unless you get that 100%, unless you get that 4.0, unless you don't receive any negative feedback back for the whole semester. That is when you will reward yourself. But when you are holding yourself to that standard and you are depriving yourself of rewards because rewards are actually a very healthy thing to do, self rewarding is very, very healthy. Self rewarding and self celebrating. Because what it does is it acts as fuel for your motivation because you're pumping yourself up and cheering yourself on. When you do reward yourself for things that you do, things that you do achieve the wins that you do recognize with your pursuit as a grad student. But when you deprive yourself for when you deprive yourself of rewards, because remember, you are trying to achieve something that is not achievable. So what does that mean? If you are waiting for the outcome of perfection and perfection is not achievable, and you're depriving yourself of a reward until you reach this unachievable standard, guess what that means? That means that you're not going to get a reward, then you know that's what that means.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:50]: And so when you do not get a reward and you're trying to withhold this good thing from yourself, what ends up happening is you decrease dopamine. So now you know we're talking about hormones in the brain, right? So dopamine is like the. It's like the feel good hormone. It's called, like, the happy hormone. So when you reward yourself with something, you increase levels of dopamine in the brain. But when you deprive, deprive yourself of good things, that means you decrease the amount of dopamine that's being released in the brain. And I want to add, too, in this way of thinking, achievement, right, because you're. You're holding out rewards until you get the achievement or the outcome, the.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:33]: The perfect outcome that. That you want. When you do make an achievement with this line of thinking, it is often bringing you relief, not satisfaction. You're just relieved. Like, whoa, okay, you know, I got that 100% on that exam onto the next thing. It's not bringing you satisfaction. You're not thinking about how satisfied you are with how you studied and how hard you worked. It's just you worried yourself to the extent that you thought that you were going to fail, and you are like, whew, I did not fail.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:09]: All right? I'm relieved because I really thought I was going to get kicked out of this class and dismissed from the program, but I got 100%, and now it's on to the next thing. So you're not even stopping to celebrate the fact that you got 100%, and instead of being satisfied because of your diligent efforts, you are just. You're just plowing into the next thing. You're not even stopping to recharge. So I hope that you can see how unhealthy this is. Perfection. Perfection is like, I. I want you to think of like.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:39]: Like a horse driver. You know, I. I know we've all seen it where it's or not a horse driver. I'm sorry, it could be a horse driver, but almost like a. A husky team, right? Where it's like, go, go. You have the person on the little sled, and it's like, go. Mush. Mush.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:54]: That's kind of how perfection operates in your brain. Mush. Keep going. We don't have time to stop. We don't have time to reward. We don't have time to celebrate. We don't have time for this. You need to go into the next thing, and you better achie like you did the last time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:09]: Think about how harsh that sounds, because that's a part of perfectionism, too. Very, very harsh treatment of yourself. Very, very harsh talk of yourself. There's no encouraging. There's no cheering. There's no embracing. It's just mush. Continue.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:27]: Go. We can't stop right now. Stopping is for the week. I really want you to hear how hard it is to operate under those types of mental conditions. And this is all going on in the brain. Perfectionism causes stress. It causes stress and burnout because stress leads to burnout. It's a part of the burnout experience when we're thinking about this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:56]: When you think about stress, when somebody is stressed, that means that their brain and their body are not safe to rest. It's not safe. I got to be on edge. I got to be ready. I have to be on defense like I have to, you know, I'm on edge because I have to. Your body is in a state, your body and mind are in a state of alert. So it's right in connection with that fight or flight with that part that's going on in the amygdala, that part of the brain. So you're not able to ease up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:24]: You're very tense, you're very worried, you're very alert, you're on edge and your body and your brain has to rest. Grad studies are very, It's a very intense level of education if you do not balance intense focus and concentration. You're looking at computer screens all day. You're reading text with extra small font, journal articles and books and chapters and like, things like that. If you do not give your, your brain and your body a chance to rest, you're going to burn them both. You're going to burn them out. You're going to burn them out. So I really want you to think about how stressful it is when you are putting your brain and your body under such hard conditions of working.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:09]: And when we talk about stress, we're talking about cortisol, increased levels of cortisol and adrenaline, because those are stress hormones. So again, we're still talking about brain functioning here. And the reason why I wanted to make sure that I talked about the brain because I think it's very, very important to have a physiological perspective of how these constructs as perfection really does have an impact not only on the psychological, but the physiological. It's all in alignment. How you think and how your brain conceptualizes it could really cause an imbalance in chemical hormones in the brain which affect your mood, which affect your mental health. It can affect your, your physical health. So it's really important to understand what, what perfection looks like on the inside of our brains. Also, perfection reduces cognitive flexibility, right? It's not flexible.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: That's why you don't, that's why you feel like you can't make any Mistakes. Everything has to be perfect. You can't get any questions wrong on the exam. It doesn't matter that you got a 99%. You missed that one question. And now the test was 75 questions multiple choice. You missed one question. You still got an A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:31]: But instead of celebrating yourself and appreciating all of the hard work that you put in, you are focused on that one question you missed. And I have heard students say to themselves, well, that was stupid. I was so stupid for that. Like, I should have known. Like, that question was so easy and I got it wrong. Not thinking that you got 74 other questions correct and you still passed, like, with an A. But when you have cognitive, when you don't have cognitive flexibility, it means that you have a rigid way of thinking. So you have A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:02]: And this aligns with a fixed mindset. You cannot make a mistake. A mistake is weakness. You might as well just start all the way over. It doesn't matter that you got 74 of the questions correct. You need to study triple time on the final so that you can get 100%. So now let's talk about behavior. Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:24]: So we talked about cognitively, when you're thinking about perfection and this way of thinking, how is it impacting the hormones in your brain? Right. One thing about behavior is behavior follows thoughts. So whatever you're thinking, that is going to show up in how you act. Right? And I had to decrease the size of the font on this slide because the list is ongoing as far as behaviors that align with perfection. So perfection doesn't just show up as a mindset as we talked about on the previous slide, but it shows up as patterns of behavior as well. And one thing that I think is really important is these behavior behaviors are often subtle and they are socially rewarded. So let's just stop and park right there just for a second. Some behaviors of perfection are often rewarded, so that's why they are very hard to recognize.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:19]: So let's just take a workaholic, for example. I am also a recovering workaholic along with being a recovering perfectionist. And I think I would, you know, I had some flare ups because as a workaholic, the reason why I was a workaholic is because nothing was good enough. And I had to make sure that everything was perfect because nobody could know that I'm making mistakes. And I had to check this email 15 times because, you know, please don't find a typo. Like, do not find a typo. You know, that's just going to disregard all of my Intelligence. If there's one typo in this email.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:56]: So this is of course not the whole entire list. This list can go on for 10 more slides, but I just wanted to list some examples here. So spending excessive time on tasks to make them just right, difficulty stopping or submitting work. And I really, as I'm going through these examples and as you are reading them for yourselves on this screen, please take a minute to reflect on your own behavior. If you are doing these things again, it's to make you aware, not ashamed. Because the more aware you are, that puts you in a really good position to make modifications to your behavior in ways that help you experience your life in better quality ways. So avoiding new or unfamiliar opportunities. Harsh self criticism.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:47]: Harsh self criticism. After minor mistakes, like I just said with my example of the exam, sensitivity to feedback or criticism. I think this is a very important one because remember when I said earlier in the conversation about I am, you know, striving towards the goal of not receiving any kind of critique all semester? Well, you're going to get critiqued. Like critique is inevitable, you know, and critique is not a negative thing. But a lot of times, especially those who are perfectionists and who operate in perfection, critique is a bad word. It is not a bad word. You can receive positive critique, you can receive critique about growth, but it's all in how you perceive critique. If you think it's bad, then you are going to approach it in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:41]: Remember that fight or flight. You feel threatened when you hear that the professor wants to talk to you after class. Or maybe there is a note that your instructor wrote on one of your assignments. You don't even want to read it because it's kind of like, why are you saying anything to me about this perfect product that I just gave you? If you want to meet with me, that means that I did something wrong and now I'm afraid. And what I might try to do is avoid reading the critique, avoid meeting with the professor. I might make some excuses as to why I don't return the email because I am afraid that you are going to tell me that all of my hard work is garbage and I wouldn't be able to handle that. So I'm just. I'm not going to listen to any critique at all.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:29]: Again, these are not helpful ways of thinking because critique, if you allow it to, it will help you to grow. If you realize that it does not define who you are as a person and it's meant to mold and shape and make you better, then you can approach receiving feedback differently. All or nothing thinking. Either it's perfect or it's trash. There is no in between. There is no in between at all. If it is not 100% on this test, I'm a failure. I'm stupid.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:03]: Doesn't matter that I got an 85. Doesn't matter if I didn't get the 100, I might as well have just gotten a 0. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. So being very worried about how you are perceived by others if they know that you're struggling. You know, I know a lot of students are worried about what their professors and what their instructors think about them. I had a student who had to repeat a class, and the reason why the student was struggling the second time around is because the student was very afraid that the instructor perceived them as incompetent because they had to take the class again instead of working with the professor to make sure that they had the skills and they had the extra help that they needed to pass the class the second time around, they avoided the instructor because they really thought the instructor just had a negative perception of that. That was really sad to hear. I'm really happy that I was able to work with that student to help them understand the benefits of being transparent with instructors so that can, you know, just demolish those distortions in your head that are telling you something that is completely not true.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:24]: Not asking for help. And a lot of times shame is associated with this, and it goes right to the point before it. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. I don't want to ask for help. If I ask for. Let's just, for example, I can't ask for help as an assistant director. I'm the assistant director. I'm the ad.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:43]: I can't ask for any help. What is my supervisor going to think if I ask her? If I ask her for help on this project, I'm supposed to know everything. I shouldn't have a question for her. If I have a question for her, she's going to think that I can't do this job. So I'm going to continue to struggle with something that I don't understand versus asking a question from somebody who knows and can give me understanding because I am too afraid that they're going to think that I am not going to be able to perform well. So all of the falsified things that we tell ourselves because we are afraid. We're afraid about what other people will think. We're afraid about what's going to happen if we go out and do something new or different.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:26]: We're afraid about falling short. We're afraid. Fear is a very, very intense and paralyzing emotion. And that's why it's so important to have conversations like this, so that you don't feel as afraid as afraid. And knowing that there's help out there for you if you are dealing with a 10 sphere like this, struggling to delegate and share tasks, because a lot of times we're afraid to let others know that we might need some help. But with perfection, it's also about control. Nobody can do it like me, so I'm gonna just do it myself. I remember working with someone who was working on a huge project, and they needed help with the project, but instead of asking for help, they worked over about four hours to complete it, when they could have completed it in about maybe an hour, maybe 90 minutes at the most, if they would have asked for help from their team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:25]: And so we had to kind of explore that together about why didn't you ask your team for help if they were all present and they said that they would help you? And the response was, well, I have a particular way that I like to do things, and so I know how I like it. So I just decided to do it myself. But this was at the cost of the person working over four hours, not getting paid overtime, working through their break period. And this is not physically or psychologically healthy. Right? Difficulty accepting praise or success, and then comparison. So if we think about the themes with these examples, we see overworking, we see control, we see rigidity, and we see emotional suppression. All of this is part of the experience and the endorsing operating under perfection. So let's talk about the perfect student when it comes to the grad student experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:32]: One thing that I would like to ask, and if you feel free to put it in the chat as we go through this particular slide, but why do you think grad students in particular feel the need to be perfect? Just type it in the chat. There's no wrong answers for this, but I would really like to know what you think as to why grad students would feel like they need to achieve a standard of perfection. I know that, and I explain to students this all the time. Graduates school is a different level of education. The ante is definitely upped when it comes to grad school and the expectations and the evaluations, they're different, you know, than undergrad. And so it can add some pressure to what students, you know, think about themselves coming into a grad program. We have some answers, some things in the chat. So let's take a pause for the cause and see what you all have to say.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:36]: So, Michelle, you said money spent for the program and loans because it is a higher level of education. So we feel as if we need to show we are highly competent, Very, very insightful. And I appreciate those responses. Michelle, I want to touch on what you said. Money spent for the program and loans. I have worked with grad students who have been dismissed from their program because they may have failed a course or weren't doing academically well. And one of the this experience is heartbreaking for staff and faculty because that's not what we want for any student. But it happens.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:24]: But students are really afraid in situations like this because they fear like, I went through all of this. I still owe money on these loans and I don't even have a degree to show for it because I got dismissed from the program. I'm a failure. I have all of this money and I have nothing to show for it. So I'm glad that you touched on that, Michelle, because sometimes the money is very pressuring. Spending all this money going to college, going to law school, going to medical school, spending all of this money trying to get this education. And what if I don't do well? Like in this case, I was talking about students who actually were dismissed from programs. But what about students who are doing okay, you know, they're actually doing good? Sometimes that loan, that financial pressure, Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:12]: And just knowing that you have all of this debt, it could make you feel like. Or all of this money that you're either investing or in money that you have to pay back, it can make you feel pressure about, well, what if I don't make it? What if I don't succeed and then I don't get a job and then I'm stuck with all of this debt? What am I going to do? So now anxiety is already making you think that you've been dismissed from a program when you're actually doing quite well. So I'm glad you touched on that. Let's read a little bit more. So, Dr. Lewis, thank you for contributing criticism of your work. Doesn't feel like this draft needs revision. It feels like maybe I don't belong here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]: And this breeds perfectionism. Yep. Grad programs select people who are already top of their class, highly motivated, used to being the smart one. So suddenly everyone is talented and the old identity, old identity advantage disappears when your peer group shifts. You can start thinking everyone else is doing better than me. I have to prove I deserve to be here. That pressure can morph into perfectionism. I agree 100%.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:18]: When I used to work with medical students, in particular, I used to work for Michigan State's University's College of Osteopathic Medicine. So I had students who were coming from undergrad going into doctoral programs, and in undergrad, they were at the top of their class, right? They were at the top of their class, but then they took that first anatomy class in their first semester of med school. They may have been at the top of their anatomy and physiology. I forgot the coursework. It's been so long. I used to know this like the back of my head, but it's like, you took anatomy courses in undergrad and you were at the top, but then you take your first anatomy class at the doctoral level in med school, and you're not doing so hot. You're used to being the smart one, the one that's at the top of their class, and now you're like, what the heck happened? Like, what happened? I just graduated a few months ago. What happened to my brain just over the last few months? And what I had to tell students a lot of the time is, this is medical school.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:21]: This is not undergrad. We are not in Kansas anymore, okay? This is a whole new level of learning and education. You got a lot of stuff coming at you. The teaching structure is different, the content is different. So you can't use the same strategies of study that you may have used in undergraduate, because you're going to have to develop a whole new infrastructure of studying and working as a. As a. As a doctoral student, as a med student. So I try to very much encourage students to think it's not you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:55]: It's not anything that changed with your brain. It's the fact that your level of education and the domain of learning that you're in has changed. And like Dr. Lewis pointed out, everybody was at the. Everybody's at the top of their class. This is med school, so they're taking the top of the top. That's why everyone doesn't get in. It's very competitive, and we're going to.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:13]: Oh, and which goes into my next. Goes into my next point. Right? Competitiveness. Grad programs are more competitive than undergrad education because they only have so many slots to fill with students. So the competitiveness can also make students feel like they have to be perfect. Imposter syndrome is interwoven all up and through this presentation. Dr. Lewis and I, we done a lot of presentations on imposter syndrome, so that is also mixed in here and also failure conversations it's taboo.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:48]: We don't talk about failure in college. One of the things that I really loved doing when I was working with medical students was talking to faculty who were willing to be transparent about their failures as medical students in their education, in residency, when it was time to take their board exams. And surprise, surprise, a lot of faculty were not willing, they did not want to be transparent about those struggles with students because they felt like students perceived me as the one who was supposed to know everything. If I let them know that I failed my license exam, I am not going to be a credible resource. They're not going to look at me as credible. But I'm like, no, actually it probably would help you connect a lot of bit more with students if they know that you did experience a failure. And look at you now, you still became a doctor, you're still very successful, you still know a boatload of stuff that they don't know. But it was the faculty's perception of themselves that still made them feel, which at least that's what I picked up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:51]: There were still elements of shame about those past failures, which is why they were not willing to be transparent. And if I add, it doesn't mean that you have to share all your business about every failure that you ever done. Transparency is not a man mandatory thing that you have to do, but it's one of those things. Whereas if you use it in the right way, it could be a powerful change agent as far as how students think of themselves and how they look at authority figures. Because a lot of times they might look at an authority figure like I wish I could be like Dr. So and so or Mr. And Ms. So and so.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:24]: They're so smart. I know, like they just whiz through school and I'm up here struggling to know that your professor also had shortcomings. If kind of changes the perspective of they can do no wrong. Like putting them up on these high pedestals. It brings them down to a human level where it's like, well, if they can experience a failure and they can still make it, I can make it too. So it's more so inspirational. It's definitely not something that could put someone in a negative light if you perceive it that way. Sometimes a dangerous truth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:00]: In many programs, the most praised students are the ones who work constantly. Say yes to everything, never set boundaries, appear always capable. If the culture implicitly rewards intensity, students learn, my worth equals my output. Perfectionism becomes a survival strategy to stay respected. Agree 100% Dr. Lewis. I remember as a grad student in my PhD program, I would always tell my professors, like, every time I would see them, if you need anything, just let me know. If you need anything, just let me know.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:33]: One of my professors stopped me and said, juanita, I know what you're doing. I know all that you're doing. There's nothing that you would be able to do for me. Not because you're not capable, but you don't have the time. You don't have the bandwidth. You're teaching classes this semester. You're in internship. You're still taking courses at night, working in the counseling center part time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:57]: During the day, you're doing clinical supervision, like working on some research. You don't have it to do anything for me. And it really made me look at myself. Like, why am I telling people that I am still available to do something if I'm not available? But I thought that if faculty knew that I was always available, it would make me look better as a student that they know that I'm doing a thousand things, and I can still do a thousand more things. So I was so appreciative of that professor who said, juanita, you can't. And that is okay. You know? And when you think about what grad students think about, they think about, like, letters of recommendation, if they're going to go on with their education. They think about maybe possibly being on somebody's research team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:44]: It's kind of like if I keep making myself available, then they'll remember that. And then when it's time, you know, to get on their research team or maybe, you know, if I ask them for a letter of recommendation, they'll write it. Not even thinking about the fact that maybe they would just do it anyway simply because you just asked, not because you overworked yourself. Very good conversation in the chat. Thank you so much for everyone contributing. All right, we're almost done. Let's get into some myths now. So you're not the only one who's thought this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:11]: Okay. I think I've thought everything on this list. So perfection is achievable. Some of these we've already answered, right? We already said that perfection is not achievable because it's constantly changing. So there's. There's not a final endpoint, a destination, a particular bar where it's like, that's the end. Because it's constantly changing due to various things in the world. Being perfect is the key to high achievement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:39]: Mistakes are signs of incompetence. That's why you should never make one as a Grad student, you should never make one. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. What's to criticize? It's all done perfectly. There's no error, there's no mistake. So there's nothing to say, right? Perfection improves confidence. Let's take some time. Let's let it sit, let's let it sink.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:07]: Let's think before we go to these facts. Especially that, those last two. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. And perfection improves confidence. Okay, now let's talk about some facts. Because the way that you fight fear. Right, Because I want you to think about perfectionism. Perfectionism is connected to anxiety and anxiety is based in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:33]: So what is driving perfection? Fear. That's what I want you to realize. It's not because you want to do so well. No. You're afraid of something. That's why you don't want to make a mistake. That's why you don't want to let others help you. That's why you cannot submit this draft right now.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:50]: Even though you've read it a hundred times. You are afraid of something. And the way that you fight fear is with facts. Because anxiety will always try to scare you with something that hasn't even happened yet. Something that is so out of this world, but it seems very real. Because it's a threat. And threats make us afraid. That's why in the part of the brain that processes emotions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:13]: Put it in the chat. If you remember the part of the brain that I mentioned that processes emotions, especially anxiety and fear, that fight or flight. What part of the brain is that Starts with an A. Put it in the chat if you remember. This is not a pop quiz, I promise you. Let's fight this fear with some facts. Yes, Michelle. The amygdala.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:35]: Woo hoo. I wish I had some prizes to give out, but I don't. I just have little zoom, little zoom responses. So let me find a nice little zoom response. Woohoo. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, so like I said, perfection is always changing. So that's that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:52]: Success usually comes from persistence, not perfection. So remember what we said on the last slide. Being perfect is the key to high achievement. Now, high achievement usually comes from persistence. You're learning from mistakes and you're adaptable. So once you've made mistakes and kind of learned what to do better, then you change, you modify, you try again. That's where success comes from. Mistakes are essential for learning and growth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:20]: Because remember what the myth was, Mistakes are a sign of incompetence. No, mistakes are actually essential. They are a part of your success process. You will not be able to succeed without making a mistake and without failing at something. Okay? Criticism is inevitable because remember the myth was if everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. Well, you're going to receive critique no matter what. So you're going to be constantly evaluated and critiqued. You're not going to be able to avoid it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:52]: So that's why it's very important to know. How do you conceptualize critique? Is it because everything I'm doing is garbage and I must have done something wrong? No, it actually could be because you're doing something right and doing something well. Or this could be information to help me become better. Right. Versus internalizing it and taking it personal. Perfectionism often undermines confidence by tying self worth to performance. Because remember that last myth was perfectionism improves confidence. Actually, it undermines confidence because it is tied to your self worth based off of how you perform.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:28]: So if you do not perform well, that means that you are not looking at yourself well, you're looking at yourself as incompetent or stupid or I don't deserve to be in this program and I should have known way better than that. I'm going to have to study a lot harder. Your self worth is low because you perceive your performance as low. So you actually are not confident. Right. So I wanted to insert this research in here because I was really, really just intrigued about everything that I was learning. And so I just wanted to see kind of what research had to say about perfectionism. And so I was looking at this study about academic perfectionism, psychological well being, and suicidal ideation in college students.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:12]: And so Fernandez, Garcia and colleagues looked at a group of over 1200 Bachelor's, Master's and doctoral university students. And these students all completed a questionnaire that measured different things. And the study aimed to analyze the extent to which high levels of perfectionism could compromise psychological well being. And so what the results showed was that there was a direct and significant relationship between perfectionism and academic performance. So when you have a direct significant relationship or positive relationship, that means as variable A goes up, variable B goes up. So variable A, you know, is perfectionism, variable B is academic performance. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels also had higher academic performance than those who did not report that they were operating under perfectionism. But for some students, there was a significant but inverse relationship found between perfectionism and psychological well being.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:22]: So we're not talking about academic performance anymore. Now the variable C is well being. So when we have a significant an inverse relationship. That means as variable A goes up, variable C goes down. Right. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels, their well being was at a lower level. Right. And so this was indicative of higher, higher numbers of students reporting that they were experiencing suicidal thoughts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:01]: Right. So when we see students reporting a higher level of suicidal ideation or thoughts, that means your mental health is low, if that is high. Right. So when we talk about an inverse relationship, that means one goes up, one goes down. The more perfectionism you endorse, the lower your psychological well being is, which opens up to the door to poor mental health symptoms like suicidal thoughts. So I just thought that that was really interesting and I wanted to share that information with you all. Okay, so now we're at the conclusion. So now we're going to wrap up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:39]: And I love quotes. I'm a quote person, I love quotes. So I just wanted to leave you all with some quotes that I found in regards to perfectionism. Done is better than perfect. Now, the quote that I found was from Sheryl Sandberg, but I actually have heard this same statement many times throughout my grad school experience, especially when I was working on my dissertation. And I mentioned that because a lot of doctoral students who are working on dissertations want a perfect dissertation. It has to be perfect. Because this is high stakes.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:48:15]: If I don't pass this, I don't get my doctorate. And if I don't get my doctorate, what does this whole experience mean? Going back to what you said, Michelle, all the money that I invested and all the time that I spent and all the courses that I took and the grades that I if I do not pass the dissertation, I don't get my doctorate. So it's a very pressuring environment. There's a lot on the line here. But I remember a dissertation coach, Dr. Ramon Goins, I remember him saying, you know, a done dissertation is better than a perfect one. And I've also been told too, which was comforting in a way, your dissertation may not be your best piece of work. More than likely it's probably not going to be because it's the first big project that you've ever done as a brand new doctor.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:05]: So it's probably not going to be your best work. Your best work is going to come after that when you have more time and more experiences and more exposure to doing research and writing and all of these other things. So I want you to take this with you. Done is better than perfect. Get it done. Just get it done. You know, finish the Chapter, finish the test. Like, don't overanalyze what you've done.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:29]: Send the email. Like, get it done. Because if you're wasting time over analyzing to make sure that it's perfect, then that means that something is left unfinished and unsubmitted and you're not achieving the goal, which is to complete what you start. Have the courage to be imperfect. I really love this because it is an act of courage to embrace your imperfections. It is. It really, really is. I want you all to think of yourself as courageous.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:59]: It is courageous to know that, hey, I have some shortcomings. Hey, you know, I don't always get it right all the time. I don't really know this area very well. You know, it takes courage to stand up to perfection. It takes courage. It takes bravery to stand up and look perfection in the eye and say, I'm okay with not knowing how to do this. I'm okay with asking for help. It's okay, it's okay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:25]: I gotta see. It's okay. I'm gonna do better next time. The most valuable thing you can make is a mistake because you can't learn anything from being perfect. And remember what I said mistakes are. I know you're going to have. I know you got some amazing professors, some amazing instructors, some amazing mentors, right? But the best teacher that you're going to have, not just in grad school but in life, are mistakes. You are going to learn a lot from them.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:54]: I don't want you to just think about academic mistakes. I want you to think about life mistakes that you've made. Okay? Think about the value of the lesson and the mistakes. If you are so busy internalizing and questioning why you made the mistake in the first place, guess what's going to happen? You're going to miss the lesson. And when you miss the lesson, that means you got to repeat the course. I'm not just talking about in grad, in the grad program. I'm talking about in life. When you miss the lesson, you have to retake the course.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:51:23]: Trust me, I've been a summer, a summer school student in life many times before. Okay, you want to make sure that. And I know sometimes we can get bummed out when we know that, that we've made a mistake. And, you know, give yourself that permission, right? But draw the line and say, okay, what am I supposed to look for here? What am I looking at here? Okay, so if you are experiencing anxiety or fear or if you know your perfection, your perfectionistic behavior is running your life. And you need help. If you need help developing new ways of doing things. If you need skills, if you need tools, come caps. Come to caps.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:07]: We're located on the second floor of the University Center. I know that we have grad students who are online programs. Maybe they are not on campus. We can talk to you virtually via Zoom. If you want to inquire about setting up some counseling sessions so that you can have professional help standing up to perfection, building up that confidence in healthy and constructive ways, just go to umfl.edu caps. All of the information that you need to know will be found there as far as how to inquire about a consultation with us to potentially start services. And I also have my email address right there. So if you want to email me, please do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:50]: I will answer any questions that you have about mental health resources, perfectionism, like anything that we've talked about. And I am actually going to put a resource in the chat here, which is a book by Brene Brown. I've actually read this book and I'm. I hope I can find it. I've read this book. I'm actually reading it for the third time, but I'm gonna put it here in the chat. The book is called the Gifts of Imperfection. It's a really good read.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:53:30]: So I'm going to copy it here just as a recommendation and as a resource. Yep. And that is the conclusion of the presentation. So I know we have a couple of minutes left, so I'm going to stop sharing so that whoever, if you have any final thoughts or if there's anything that you would like to express, you know, feel free to go ahead. I'm definitely opening up the floor to you all. Thank you so much for your transparency, Shannon. Like, that's what I was hoping. I just want to encourage, you know, because we all struggle with things, you know, all of us.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:54:09]: But struggles don't define who we are. It just shines a light on an area that we can receive some help in. So that's why it's so important to ask for help. So thank you so much for your comment. So I'll turn it back over to you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:22]: Sounds good. Really appreciate it, Dr. Tookes, for all of this amazing information. This is something that I think everybody should be learning about because I think all of us have been impacted by this in some way through our graduate school experiences. And I love what you said about all of your faculty have experienced this in some way. And they may not talk about it, but they have dealt with it. The professionals on campus have dealt with it, they may still be dealing with it. You never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:52]: You know, none of us. You can't keep it in the back of your mind that I'm the only one that's not perfect. Because no one around you is perfect. None of us are perfect. So I really appreciate, Dr. Tux, you sharing this today and thank you all for being here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:55:06]: Yeah, thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:08]: Wish you all the best as you go through this term and beyond. If you need anything, please reach out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. It's if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to seeing speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:47]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected]

Are you thinking about taking the leap into graduate school, or are you already on that journey and looking for reassurance and advice? In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Tameka Shepard, Academic Advisor and Business Programs Recruiter at the University of Michigan-Flint, to explore her powerful story of balancing family, career, and her pursuit of an MBA.

From the start, Tameka Shepard is candid about her motivations: a desire to give her children an example of lifelong learning, and a vision to one day open her own coffee shop. With a background in social work, she offers a unique perspective on how diverse educational experiences can complement each other—highlighting the value of understanding people in the business world. When it came to picking her MBA program, Tameka Shepard describes how flexibility was key. Western Governors University's online, self-paced structure made it possible for her to manage graduate school alongside raising kids, working full-time, and supporting a traveling spouse.

Time management and setting boundaries were crucial tools for her success. Tameka Shepard shares how she carved out early mornings and late nights for study, and how open conversations with her family helped them support her goals—reminding listeners that prioritizing your education sometimes means missing out on other events, but the long-term benefits are worth it.

The episode doesn't shy away from the challenges of grad school. Tameka Shepard bravely discusses facing imposter syndrome and struggling through a difficult class, ultimately persisting to show her children (and herself) the importance of not quitting. She highlights the freedom to take breaks to avoid burnout, and encourages others to listen to themselves—reminding us that there's no one "right" timeline for finishing a degree.

Perhaps most valuable are Tameka Shepard's reflections on what she wishes she'd known: the importance of networking, communicating effectively, and not feeling guilty about progressing at your own pace. Her story is a compelling mix of practical advice, honest emotion, and hope for others who are considering or pursuing graduate education.

Ready to be inspired by real-life experiences and actionable tips for success? Listen to the full episode with Tameka Shepard and let her journey motivate you to take the next step in yours.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person, every individual that is thinking about graduate school goes through a journey that is very unique to themselves, depending on the program, depending on who they are, where they are in their life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: And no matter if you are just at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school, or if you have already applied or if maybe you've been accepted or you're in graduate school, doesn't matter, you're still on that journey. And we're on that journey together. That's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk to you about ways in which you can find success in this graduate school journey that you're on. And I love introducing you to new people that have gone to graduate school before you that can give you some perspectives and some thoughts about what they had to do in that time in their own life. So today we have another great guest. Tameka shepherd is with us today, and Tameka is an academic advisor and business programs recruiter for the University of Michigan, Flint's School of Management. He's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: And I am really excited to be able to have her here and to talk to her about her own journey in graduate school and to welcome her to the show. Thanks so much for being here, Tamika.

Tameka Shepard [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: It is my pleasure. I really appreciate that you are here today and I always love starting the show by taking you back in time. So I know that you did your undergraduate work at Spring Arbor University and then you graduated, you graduated, you went, you started work. And at some point between that time an undergraduate student and as you were going and working, you made a decision. You made a decision that you weren't done going to college, you wanted to continue your education and you decided to go back and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point where you were starting that process for yourself. What made you decide that that was the right time in your life to go back to graduate school?

Tameka Shepard [00:02:24]: So at that time, I just knew that I wasn't done with my education. I knew that as a full time, working, solo parenting mom at home, my husband traveled, that I wanted something more. I wanted to be able to give my kids a little something extra. I wanted them to see how important education is. And so it was just, it was good timing. I was pregnant and so I was working full time. I was working from home. And I just thought, you know, I'm not getting any younger.

Tameka Shepard [00:03:00]: I was already in my 30s and I just decided, decided I'm just gonna do it. Now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: Every student has the ability to pick any program. Now. You could have, you could have studied anything that you had wanted. You made a decision to study a mba. You decided to go and get a master's in Business Administration. And I guess first and foremost, before we even talk about where you decided to go, why an mba?

Tameka Shepard [00:03:23]: So my ultimate goal is to. This is kind of like a retirement dream is to own a coffee shop. And so my undergrad degree is in social work. Very. From a business degree. But in every aspect of business, it, I think it, it helps to know how to kind of work with individuals, especially individuals who may have mental health issues, things like that. So I do think that they kind of go hand in hand. However.

Tameka Shepard [00:03:50]: So again, my ultimate goal is to own my own business. And I wanted to have at least a foundation behind me and not kind of jumping into it blind when I'm older. And I've just always been surrounded by business minded individuals. And so I just really felt like that was kind of where my calling was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:10]: And I know that you chose to attend Western Governor's University, and there are many MBA programs across the nation. We have one right here at the University of Michigan, Flint. So there's a lot of different options in a lot of programs that you could have chose. Talk to me about that thought process, that decision process that you went through and how you whittled that down for yourself to decide that Western Governors was the right fit for you.

Tameka Shepard [00:04:37]: So I decided on Western Governors because it is an entirely online university. And although U of M Flint has completely online MBA program at that point in time, I had a friend who was also attending Western Governors and she loved it. And the way that they structure the program is where you work on one course at a time and you can move through the course at your own pace. And that was really what kind of made me choose that program specifically. I knew that I was having a baby soon. I also had other kids at home and I needed something that was going to fit my schedule and that I could kind of work on on my own time. And nothing that was super structured with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:19]: Kids at home, with having another child on the way at the time you had A lot to balance. Especially you said having a partner, a spouse that traveled a lot. So you're balancing a lot of different things and then you're adding another thing into the mix. And a lot of graduate students are also balancing life, work, family, personal responsibilities, lots of different things. So talk to me about that balance for yourself. And how did you do that? How were you able to do that and do it well so that you could still find success in that graduate school journey?

Tameka Shepard [00:05:53]: A lot of it was managing my time and finding little bits of time throughout every day where I could read out of the textbook, watch recorded lectures, submit assignments, things like that. So sometimes, sometimes that looked like early mornings, three, four o'clock in the morning and carving out some time in the morning, sometimes it was late night. Really just kind of depended on the kids and their needs and things like that. There were a lot of family events that I had to not attend, so birthday parties for nieces and nephews. I just really made my education a priority and I managed my time in a way that I knew that if I just got it done, spend a year graduate, get my mba, that I would have the rest of my life to attend birthday parties and things like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: And every graduate student goes through a transition because the way you're educated as a undergraduate student is different than the way you're educated as a master's student is different than the way that you're educated as a doctoral student. So at every level of education, there's different expectations in regards to what your faculty expect of you, what you expect of yourself, and more so as you were going through that transition for yourself and you did find success, what did you have to do to truly set yourself up for success as you transitioned into your graduate program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of your graduate degree?

Tameka Shepard [00:07:20]: A good piece of it was talking to my kids about the importance of education and why I was choosing to go back to school and get my master's degree. And we just kind of set up boundaries about if mom is in her office, in the door is shut, that means she is working on school. That's like focus time. So no interruptions. Carving out dedicated amounts of time every day to be able to do that, but really just setting boundaries within the family so that they kind of knew what to expect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:53]: A lot of times I hear from graduate students that there's a point in time in a graduate degree where they sometimes feel imposter syndrome, or sometimes it's self doubt regarding being a graduate student, the studies that they're in, etc. Talk to me about that for yourself and how that may have reared its head for you and how did you handle it?

Tameka Shepard [00:08:16]: So one class in particular I really struggled with and each of the classes were competency based, so you didn't necessarily earn a grade for the course itself. The average was, was a B. You had to have a 3.0 or better in the class to be able to pass it. And I could not pass this class' final exam. And they allow you to meet with a professor, go over the work, things like that. But it took multiple tries for me to understand the content. And I really struggled with that because learning has always came pretty easy to me. And so to have this one class that is just like impossible to pass, it seemed like.

Tameka Shepard [00:08:57]: And so just trying over and over and putting in all of the effort that I absolutely had, meeting with the professor multiple times to go over content, it was really a struggle. And there was a time where I thought maybe I am just not cut out for grad school. Maybe I need to just throw in the towel. But I was halfway through and I knew that I had my kids watching me and I didn't want them to see me quit. When you start something, you finish it. It's kind of what I've always taught them. And so that's what I did. I just powered through and got it done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:29]: So I mentioned the fact that you chose an MBA and you talked about your dream of owning that coffee shop down the road and having that dream for yourself. Now as you look back at what you degree you got, if you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? And if so, why? Or why not?

Tameka Shepard [00:09:48]: I would. And only because it gives a good foundation for all of the different aspects of business. That's not to say that I wouldn't maybe someday go back and get another degree or even certificates or something like that to kind of help in other areas. But the MBA really gives you kind of a well rounded foundation of all of the things that you need to be successful in a business, business or as a business owner. That's not to say that I could have a business and do all of the accounting for the business. I would not be able to do that, but I would be able to know kind of a starting point for marketing and the supply chain aspect and just all of those different areas.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]: Another thing that I hear from students as they're going through, and we talked about balance earlier, but sometimes students are also impacted by Burnout. And you get to that point in whether it's the midway point, whether it's your first term, it doesn't really matter. But a lot of times some students will feel burnout. How did you avoid burnout or recover when you felt overwhelmed?

Tameka Shepard [00:10:52]: So I was able to take a break in between classes if I needed to because I took them one at a time and kind of did them at my own pace. If I was able to push through six classes in a semester, great. But if I only did one, that was okay as well. So if I got to a point where I was starting to feel burnt out, I would just take a little bit of a break and not start another class until I felt like I was ready to do that. My biggest piece of advice for people when they're feeling burnt out is to take a break. That's okay. This doesn't have to be a sprint, it can be a marathon. And if you need to take your time getting the degree, that's okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:30]: How do you feel that graduate school changed the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Tameka Shepard [00:11:36]: It definitely helps with critical thinking and being more familiar, being more aware of how other people think as well. And so I, I feel like it helps with problem solving. It definitely help with my critical thinking skills. It helps with communicating with like minded individuals. It helps with communicating with my colleagues here at the university. I think communication probably is the biggest piece. It really helps teach you how to communicate effectively.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:04]: And as you think back to when you started your graduate program, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Tameka Shepard [00:12:15]: I think the one thing that I wish somebody would have told me when I started was that it's okay to take your time and you don't have to finish in the typical allotted time that a master's degree takes. It is okay to take a break. If you need to take a break, it is okay to take one class a semester. If you can only handle one class a semester, you don't have to rush through the program. It doesn't matter how old you are when you get the degree. It age is not a factor in your success in a grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]: And finally, as you think back to your graduate school experience, what are some tips beyond what you've already shared that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Tameka Shepard [00:13:02]: Networking, talking with your fellow students Talking to and getting to know your professors Taking advantage of networking opportunities when they're being presented to you. If you're not able to attend, you know on campus networking opportunities, that's okay. But virtual networking opportunities, an internship, if that is something that you are able to do, take advantage of an. Of an internship, I think that that provides a lot of success later in life. One of the things that I wish that I would have had access to in my specific graduate program was networking and I didn't get to do that. So I feel like I missed out on that big piece of grad school. So that is probably my one big takeaway that I. That I would wish all grad students to take advantage of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:49]: Definitely. Networking is an important factor and something that you need to be. Networking with the students in your class, networking with the faculty members, finding ways to identify alumnus from the program that you've graduated from, connections with industry, doing what you can to set yourself up for meeting the goals that you've set for yourself. Just like what Tamika was just saying. But. But the other thing that I would throw out there is take advantage of opportunities that are thrown at you while you're going through your graduate program as well. I know that our school of management brings in alumni to speak and programs do that. They will bring alumnus in and these are distinguished individuals in their field and you have the opportunity then to learn from them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:38]: But then also a lot of times there's opportunities afterwards to go and talk to them and to pick their brain or meet other people that are at the same event. Connect, build those connections and you never know what doors will open. Tamika, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And it definitely sounds like your journey is not over, that you might have some more education down the road in your path. And I know that you are continuously talking to students that want to do graduate school about these different topics. So I appreciate you doing that as well. But I truly thank you for your time today and I wish you all the best.

Tameka Shepard [00:15:15]: Been a pleasure. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice.umflint.edu.

Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And today I don't have a guest. I am talking to you about some of the questions that I have gotten from over the time that we've been doing this podcast and over the years to try and help to answer some of your questions. And today, the question that we're going to be answering is, how many graduate programs should you apply to?

If you've started researching graduate school, there's a moment that almost always happens.

At first, it's exciting — you're exploring programs, imagining the possibilities, picturing yourself in a new career or stepping into a leadership role. You start bookmarking program pages, saving "how to apply" checklists, and telling yourself, Okay… I'm really doing this.

And then… reality hits.

You realize there are a lot of graduate programs out there.

A LOT.

You might find yourself asking:

• "Should I apply to just one program?"
• "What if I only apply to two and don't get in?"
• "What if I apply to ten and burn out halfway through?"
• "What's the smart number?"
• "What do people normally do?"

If that's you — first, take a deep breath.

You're not behind. You're not doing it wrong. And you're definitely not the only person trying to solve this puzzle.

Today we're going to walk through this question together: How many graduate programs should you apply to?

And I'll give you a clear recommendation — but even more importantly, I'll help you choose the right number for you.

The honest answer: it depends… but not as much as you think

I know "it depends" can be the most annoying answer ever, so let me say this upfront:

Most prospective graduate students should apply to between 3 and 6 programs.

That's not just a random number — it's the sweet spot where you:

• give yourself strong options,
• reduce risk of not getting in anywhere,
• and avoid overwhelming yourself with too many applications.

But of course, there are reasons to apply to fewer… or more.

So instead of giving you a number and sending you on your way, I want to help you decide:

• What's realistic for your time and energy
• What's appropriate for your field
• What's strategic for your goals
• What gives you the best chance at admission and the best chance at success once you're in

Because here's what I tell students all the time:

Getting accepted matters… but choosing the right program matters more.

Start with this: What kind of graduate applicant are you?

Before we get into numbers, I want to ask you a question.

When you picture applying to grad school, are you someone who:

1) Wants a clear, simple plan

You want 2–3 strong options, you want to focus, and you want to avoid the stress of "too many choices."

2) Wants options and flexibility

You want to be strategic, apply broadly, compare offers, and decide later.

3) Is feeling uncertain and trying to "make sure"

You're not totally confident yet — and applying to more programs feels like a way to protect yourself.

There's no wrong answer here. But knowing which one you are helps you choose your best number.

A helpful framework: Dream, Fit, and Safe

One of the best ways to build your graduate school list is to include three categories:

• Dream Programs

These are highly competitive or highly selective. You would LOVE to get in — but you know it's not guaranteed.

• Fit Programs

These are strong matches. Your academic background, experience, and goals align well.

• Safe Programs

These are programs where you have a strong likelihood of admission. You'd still be happy attending — and they reduce anxiety.

Now here's the magic:

A strong grad application plan includes a mix of all three. That way you avoid the two biggest mistakes applicants make:

1. applying only to the most competitive programs
2. applying randomly without a strategy

So… how many programs should you apply to?

Let's break it into realistic options.

Option 1: Apply to 1–2 programs

This is okay if…

• You are geographically limited (family, job, caregiver responsibilities)
• You are applying to a very specific program that only a few schools offer
• You are already connected to a faculty member or advisor
• You are 100% sure this is the right program for you
• You have a backup plan if you don't get in

This can work.

But I'll be honest — the risk is higher. Because even strong applicants get denied sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with them.

Examples include:

• limited cohort size
• funding availability
• faculty capacity
• too many qualified applicants

So if you're applying to only one program, I encourage you to ask:

"If I don't get in this cycle… what's my plan B?"

If you have a good answer, applying to 1–2 programs can absolutely be a smart choice.

Option 2: Apply to 3–4 programs (recommended for most people)

This is the "balanced" plan.

It works well when:

• You have limited time to apply
• You are working full-time
• You want to submit strong applications instead of rushing
• You want options, but you don't want overload

A 3–4 program plan typically looks like this:

• 1 Dream
• 2 Fit
• 1 Safe

If you want a straightforward, smart plan — this is it.

Option 3: Apply to 5–6 programs (great if you want more options)

This is also a strong approach — especially if:

• You're applying in a competitive field
• You're hoping for assistantships or funding
• You want flexibility in program format (online, hybrid, in-person)
• You want multiple choices for location or faculty

A 5–6 program plan might look like:

• 2 Dream
• 2–3 Fit
• 1 Safe

This gives you a strong chance of acceptance and the ability to compare offers.

Option 4: Apply to 7+ programs

This may be necessary if:

• You're applying to highly competitive programs (like clinical psych, funded PhDs, top-tier research programs)
• You're chasing assistantships and want to maximize funding chances
• You're applying nationally with flexible location

But I'll warn you: applying to 7+ programs can quickly become too much.

Here's why:

Graduate applications aren't like undergrad applications.

They usually require:

• detailed personal statements
• program-specific essays
• recommendation letters
• writing samples
• resumes/CVs
• sometimes interviews

And each application needs to feel personal and intentional.

If you apply to too many programs, the quality can drop — and that can cost you admission.

So if you're going beyond 6 programs, be sure you have:

• a clear timeline
• support (like a mentor, advisor, coach)
• and enough bandwidth to write well

Here's what most people forget: applications cost money and energy

Let's talk about the "invisible cost."

Yes — graduate apps can have fees.

But the bigger cost is time and emotional energy.

Because every program you apply to requires you to:

• imagine yourself there
• research faculty and curriculum
• write about your goals
• craft your future into words
• feel the hope and anxiety of "what if?"

And that adds up.

If you apply to 10 programs and burn out, you may end up submitting 10 weaker applications instead of 4 strong ones.

I'd rather see you submit 3 applications you feel proud of than 8 rushed applications you dread.

A Director's perspective: what matters more than the number

Let me give you the most important advice I can offer as someone who reads applications and supports graduate students every day.

The best number of programs to apply to is the number you can apply to WELL.

That's it.

A strong application feels like:

• clear goals
• a strong "why this program?"
• alignment with curriculum and faculty
• maturity and readiness
• polished writing

And those things take time.

So instead of asking:

"How many programs should I apply to?"

Try asking:

"How many strong applications can I realistically submit in the next 6–10 weeks?"

That will guide you to the right number almost every time.

My recommendation (and a simple takeaway)

If you're still unsure, here's the clearest guidance I can give:

Apply to 4 programs if:

• you're working full-time
• you want to avoid burnout
• you want a focused approach

Apply to 5–6 programs if:

• your field is competitive
• you want to maximize scholarship/assistantship possibilities
• you want options across format and location

Apply to 2–3 programs if:

• your options are limited by location or lifestyle
• you're already highly confident and prepared
• you have a backup plan

And if you're applying to 7+ programs, you're not wrong — just make sure you're set up to do it sustainably.

One final encouragement

If you're listening to this and feeling overwhelmed, I want you to know this:

You don't have to have the perfect number.

You just need a plan that protects your energy, increases your chances, and keeps you moving forward.

Grad school isn't about chasing prestige — it's about choosing a program that fits your life and supports your goals.

So yes, apply strategically.

But also apply with hope.

Because you're not just applying to programs.

You're applying to a future you're building on purpose.

And that's something to be proud of.

Embarking on graduate school is more than a simple academic step—it's a deeply personal journey, one that evolves and reshapes your goals, expectations, and life direction. The latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast welcomes Michael Sevick, Professor Emeritus from the University of Michigan-Flint, to share his inspiring story of growth, perseverance, and transformation through higher education.

From his beginnings at what is now Mott Community College to earning a Bachelor of Fine Arts at the University of Michigan, and ultimately achieving an MFA—the terminal degree in his field—Michael Sevick's trajectory is a testament to resilience and purposeful planning. He didn't take the straightest course: after his associate's degree, he paused his education to pursue music, returning later with renewed commitment to finish his bachelor's and then move into graduate study.

A key theme in this episode is the importance of intentionality and adaptability. Michael Sevick discusses applying to several graduate schools, carefully weighing family, work, and personal responsibilities—all while keeping his professional and creative aspirations in focus. His approach underscores the value of aligning educational pursuits with life circumstances and long-term goals.

The conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis pulls back the curtain on the real challenges of graduate education: managing transitions, facing imposter syndrome, and adapting to higher expectations. Michael Sevick shares candid moments of doubt and anxiety—especially as he moved straight from being a student to teaching others. His experience highlights the necessity of support networks, mentorship, and self-advocacy in maintaining balance during demanding times.

Listeners will also take away practical advice on time management, perseverance, and leveraging campus resources. Michael Sevick urges students to seek out help, use support systems, and remember that most people you meet in graduate programs genuinely want you to succeed.

Whether you're considering graduate school, already on your way, or simply in need of motivation, this episode is packed with valuable lessons and heartfelt encouragement. Michael Sevick's journey reminds us that roadblocks can become stepping stones, and that with the right mindset and support, graduate school can be a profoundly rewarding adventure.

Tune in and be inspired by a story of perseverance, community, and lifelong learning. Begin your own journey toward becoming a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you are on. And I call it a journey because every student that's thinking about graduate school and goes on a journey, whether you're at the very beginning and you're just starting to think about this, you've maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Throughout this entire process, you're going to be going through a personal journey toward the goals that you've set for yourself. That's why this show exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: This show is here to be able to help you to find ways that you can be successful in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I love being able to have different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the journey that they went on. And then you can learn a little bit for yourself and take what you hear, set it aside, doesn't matter, learn from them, and hopefully be able to find some tips, some tools, some tricks, some things that you can do to help you on the journey that you personally will have. Today we have another great guest. Mike Sevik is with us today. And Mike is a professor emeritus from the University of Michigan, Flint. He was an associate professor of art for many years at the University of Michigan, Flint. We're going to be talking to him about his journey from starting at a community college to moving to a bachelor's, to a master's and then to teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: So really excited to be able to have him here and for us to learn from him and his own journey. Mike, thanks so much for being here today.

Michael Sevick [00:01:52]: Thanks for having me. I hope this helps.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time. I want to go all the way back. I want to go back to. Let's go back to the beginning in the sense of you started your undergraduate work at Mott Community College. It wasn't called Mott Community College at that time, but. But the equivalent of Mott Community College before you went on and got your Bachelor of Fine Arts degree at the University of Michigan. And at some point in that time of being at the University of Michigan, you had a calling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: There was a calling to you to Continue your education. Because you did get that Bachelor of Fine Arts at BFA and you could have stopped there, could have gone and painted and worked as a painter. But you decided to go and get that terminal degree. And for those of you that don't know in the fine arts area, the Master of Fine Arts degree is a terminal degree. So you went on and you got that mfa. Bring me back to that point where, where you said, where in your head you said to yourself, yes, I'm gonna keep going on. Why did you decide to go on? Why was it a right time to go for graduate school?

Michael Sevick [00:02:56]: Yeah, you're correct that I started at Flint Community College, which is now Mott Community College. And that would have been 1970. And I was there for a year or so and left college to pursue other interests. I was in a rock and roll band and decided to do that for a while. But I came from a family of painters. So my grandfather was a painter. He owned Civic Sign Company here in Flint in the 1920s and that. And my father was an artist and my uncle.

Michael Sevick [00:03:22]: So I just sort of. You're right. I probably could have always fallen back on do I need school? Do I need education? And that. But at the time, Mott Community College only had a two year program. And so I got my associate's degree, took the time off to pursue other interests. But then in the 80s, I decided to come back to school, to Mott. I needed a few credits in order to transfer. My plan was to go to a larger school that offered a bachelor's degree in fine Arts Arts.

Michael Sevick [00:03:53]: So I got my associate's degree right after that. I got accepted into University of Michigan, Ann Arbor's art program. I took my portfolio and all my letters and a lot of energy and sat down with the director there, who was a wonderful man, looked at my work and said, we'd love to have you in our undergrad program. And I was in that program for two years and that. I graduated in 88. And I. Right away I wanted to go to graduate school. Because at that time I was already in my mid-30s.

Michael Sevick [00:04:26]: And so I applied to the five different graduates. And I had a family and kids already, the five different schools in my area. I lived in Swartz Creek, which is near Flint. And those five schools, you know, Wayne State and Michigan State and U of M and just where I could commute to. I got accepted to three of them. Luckily, after my. My undergrad one of them, I was only accepted into the master's program. And I wanted the MFA you mentioned the terminal degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]: I wanted the MFA and to me to spend an extra time in a master's program. I thought I could focus my energy and just, just try to do the mfa. So I took the MFA offer. One is offered different packages. It's like a sports personality I guess. One of them offered an assistants right away and what that was was teaching. I would do my class load but then I also had to teach a certain amount. And those students that I had were the, bless their hearts, they were the freshmen people that are just first coming in.

Michael Sevick [00:05:40]: And in Ann Arbor the schools was quite large so the senior faculties could actually choose and pick more designer friendly classes for them to work in. But I was lucky enough to then graduate with my MFA in two years. So 1990 I got out of there with honors and friends and networking and sort of the. I didn't realize it at the time, but now when I look back that was the ladder or the next bridge or the, the steps to the next part of my career which was I had to teach right away because I had all these bills in a family and all that. So I think still my last semester in graduate school I was lucky enough to get a teaching position at Schoolcraft Community College, which is in Livonia and it's kind of a feeder U of M. Luckily they would kind of look after their graduates sometimes and try and direct them into programs that they knew were might be available or needy. And then from, from there I was lucky enough to sort of come back to Flint. There was some substitute offerings, they were just starting their art program.

Michael Sevick [00:06:52]: And I was recommended by again the networking thing that I made in graduate connected me to the school craft jobs. The, the jobs at all the other colleges that I worked at until I finally were was able to land a tenured position at U of M Flint, which is what I wanted. All that was my plan. When I went back to get my degree. I didn't want to move, I didn't want to sell my house, I didn't want to leave my wife and kids. Everything had to be threaded like a web. And I can't believe how things worked out almost the way that I sort of planned.

Michael Sevick [00:07:27]: When you transition from an undergraduate degree into a graduate degree, there are different expectations, there's different perspectives, there's different ways of learning. And there truly is a transition when you go from undergraduate education into graduate education in those expectations and beyond. So as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success. Throughout the entire graduate school journey, I worked pretty hard.

Michael Sevick [00:07:57]: I made sure that I was kind of indispensable in a way. I didn't know what they needed, but I was ready to do it. Never taught that class, but sure, I'll do some research and I'll teach it. I know a guy who did teach that class and I'm going to call him and ask him some notes or what was his perspective. And I tried to use that. Luckily I had a couple of mentors who were very, very gracious in helping me when I had just anxiety questions. I couldn't believe, you know, I graduated from graduate school and the next semest teaching. And as I'm walking into the class for the first time, I was just going, they're going to find out I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not prepared for this.

Michael Sevick [00:08:38]: And the poor kids that I'm going to have to be teaching. And then something kind of clicked when I walked in and they sort of hello, professor, or hello Mr. Sevik. And I was no longer that grad student and I was no longer an undergrad. I wasn't even Mike Sevik anymore. I was professional Professor Mike Saidk, instructor or whatever you want to call it. But that sense of responsibility made me want to do better and do more. But the question you asked about the undergraduate and graduate perspective, it.

Michael Sevick [00:09:09]: It is totally different. I remember as an undergrad looking at the graduates in a particular way. That changed when I was a graduate student looking at the undergrad students. And then when I eventually did graduate and became an instructor, I imagine I looked at my graduate students a little bit different as well. The assistantship, the ability to work while I was a graduate student really helped me in that again, that first class. When I'm not a graduate student anymore, I'm an instructor. I'm walking into class. What do I do having that assistantship, even though it was under the.

Michael Sevick [00:09:45]: My first year assistant, I was under the. I had a professor that I had to coordinate some of the class and classwork. They did that grading and the heavy lifting and I did the other stuff. But then my second year as a graduate student, a TA colleague and myself, we were given the classes so we didn't have a professor anymore looking over us and that. But there was two of us. So that was. Class was 90, but there was still two of us. And then when I got my first class at schoolcraft, my first set of.

Michael Sevick [00:10:18]: I think they gave me three. They were manageable class of 2025. They were all classes that I really liked. A design class, art history class, art appreciation, a drawing class, the beginning classes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:31]: So as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about others that are coming behind you, was there anything that you wish you had known before you had started graduate school that would have helped you to find success?

Michael Sevick [00:10:47]: I don't know if it would help me necessarily. It would have. I didn't realize you are invited into the program and you can be invited out of the program, which happened. There was four of us that got into the program and the mfa, and three of us made it through the first year, but one did not. And I didn't quite realize the seriousness of, you know, as an undergrad. And they can't really kick you out. You know, I guess you could flunk out or you drop out and all that. But it's very rare that the school says, we're going to ask you to leave.

Michael Sevick [00:11:21]: So that brought home that second year. Things got more serious. I realized I probably had passed my probation point, so they weren't going to kick me out. And I was doing pretty good, pretty good stuff. But I didn't know that. So I think one's very lucky to get into a graduate program. And once you're in it, keep that in mind. Be grateful and work real hard and try not to burn bridges.

Michael Sevick [00:11:46]: Everybody has people they like and don't like, but that's part of life. And you might have a professor that you don't care for personally, but, boy, I bet you they know their stuff, because they probably wouldn't be where they are at if they didn't.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:01]: Now, also, as you think about graduate school, did you find that there was a defining moment or a turning point in graduate school that shaped your academic or professional journey?

Michael Sevick [00:12:13]: Again, I was pretty lucky out of the bat. So there were some awards and some accolades that I got that first semester, and my ego was inflated and probably a little arrogant and all that, but as an artist, as a painter especially, dealing in Ann Arbor is like a little Europe. There's people from all over and there's all kinds of skills. And the guy painting next to me was from China, and the guy across the. The hall was from Russia. And I had a Japanese. Just huge competition. And I think one of the things it did for me was it rose me up to that.

Michael Sevick [00:12:51]: You know, you're always questioning yourself. You know, where. Where do I fit in? How good am I? Well, I'm in this level of my education. What does that mean how do I stack up against similar. Similar people? Probably a little more competitive back then than it is now. But like I said, there was only three of us that made it through that program and two finally graduated.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:11]: So talk to me about balance, because, you know, when you're going through graduate school, like you said, you have a family, you've got friends, you've wearing many hats. You're trying to balance being the good student, the graduate assistant. You know, there's lots of things you're trying to balance as you're trying to also be successful in your academics. So how did you balance school, work, family, other personal responsibilities while also being a graduate student in a rigorous program?

Michael Sevick [00:13:38]: I think I had a wonderful support team from my wife and my kids and my mom and dad and the networking people that I made along the way, other fellow artists, and that helped a lot. I was always playing as a musician all through graduate school as well. So I was able to earn enough money to survive being a musician, but not to thrive. And at some point, having no health insurance and, and all that, I realized this is not good. So the idea of getting a tenured position someplace down the road really drove that car. But I had a wonderful support group and it, for me, it took a village to get where I am now. I don't know if I could have done it by myself. I probably would have tried.

Michael Sevick [00:14:27]: But if one has help and support, even in the smallest ways, take it. I remember my grandmother, when I first started going to College, giving me $1,500. And back then, that was a lot of money, and I felt obligated to pay her back somehow, maybe not with money, but with what I could do. But that's an example. I think people love you. They support you, get their help, take their help, and then pass it on. When you're in that position, remember that and say, you know what? I can help you. This happened to me.

Michael Sevick [00:14:58]: So let me. It might, might work for you, it might not, but. But at least you're listening. And I think that dialogue is important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:04]: I hear from a lot of students that figuring out that time management piece is so critical, especially when you start in graduate school because of the balance and you're having to focus in on the academics, but you're also having to focus in on everything else and making sure that nothing, none of the balls are dropped. So for you, what time management strategies did you put in place to help you be successful?

Michael Sevick [00:15:27]: Yeah, the scheduling on all of the different aspects of my life was really important. So I tried to get classes early in the day. I tried to be, make the drive home from Ann Arbor here by afternoon, late afternoon, and compartmentalize things that were important. Like I said, I did have a wonderful support. I do have wonderful support. My wife was able to take some of my duties, running the household or whatever I did and cover that. Anyone I worked for, I was able to kind of, whether it was a painting, I was working, doing commissions. Also if I did a gig, I'd make sure it was on a weekend and it was tried to turn down lesser paying gigs.

Michael Sevick [00:16:09]: I thought, I've got a great idea. I'm just not going to pay for play for less money anymore. I'll charge more and, and I'll make all kinds of money. And of course that didn't work out. It was the same with selling my paintings. When they wouldn't sell for 500, I thought, well, I'll just double the price and see if I can sell them for a thousand. What's, what's the difference? And. But then I, I sold a couple.

Michael Sevick [00:16:29]: I said, oh, okay, maybe that does make a difference. You know, you're self worth management though. I would imagine most anybody that's in a graduate program probably has a pretty good idea of what it's going to take or what it's taking to be successful. And if you don't maybe talk to someone about helping me organize my time and you probably have programs like that, don't you?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:56]: There are definite resources on campus that can help students to be able to figure that out and to manage that in a better way. And I think every campus has something that's there to hopefully support students in that regard. So all in all, I mean there are resources that are there for students. You have to search them out, you have to ask, you have to advocate for yourself and be willing to say I need help and that's important.

Michael Sevick [00:17:20]: I totally agree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: I guess finally, as you think back to your own graduate school experience, what are some tips that you'd offer other individuals that are thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Michael Sevick [00:17:32]: Well, you know, like I said, in my case I took some time off. I guess just be careful. If anyone's planning on a hiatus and coming back. I understand life happens, illnesses and successes and opportunities and stuff like that. But if you can avoid those recesses, it does help because postgraduate school is full and you can fill that with a lot. And time is one of those commodities that is not renewable and got so much. So take advantage of it, work hard, work fast, try and do it. If you have to take a break, work with the institution.

Michael Sevick [00:18:15]: Because I didn't realize when I was in graduate school, my one of my parents were ill and I didn't realize there were mechanisms for me to take time off but still be a student, still participate. And they're the thing that I learned was they were there for me, for my success. Almost everyone that you encounter wants you to succeed. They're trying to help keep that in mind. And it's a lot easier to take that in and say, oh, you're saying that because you want to help me. I get it. You're not out to crush me or hurt me. It's a positive thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:48]: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and all of the information that you shared to that you learned in your own experience. And I truly wish you all the best.

Michael Sevick [00:19:00]: Vice versa. And to all the graduate students and potential graduate students, enjoy your journey. It's a wonderful, wonderful time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

If you're considering graduate school, feeling uncertain about your career direction, or wondering how to overcome obstacles along the way, the latest episode of Victors in Grad School is an inspiring must-listen. In this candid conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse—faculty member at the University of Michigan-Flint and Director of the Inclusive History Project—to share her remarkable journey from first-generation college student to tenured professor.

Themes of Resilience and Self-Discovery

One of the strongest themes throughout the episode is the importance of self-discovery and adaptability. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse describes how she began her academic journey with aspirations to become an engineer, drawn by the promise of a lucrative career. However, after facing academic challenges and realizing her passion for humanities, she boldly changed her major to Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies.

Her honest reflection on the embarrassment and fear of changing majors—and the eventual pride in pursuing a path she loved—serves as a powerful reminder that the undergraduate years are a time for self-discovery. As Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse puts it, "undergrad is really about self-discovery and figuring out what you are passionate about and what you're good at."

Finding Your 'Why' and Keeping Education a Priority

The podcast explores the critical importance of understanding your motivation, or "why," when pursuing graduate education. Facing academic probation early on, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how establishing her goals helped her prioritize her studies over distractions. She emphasizes the necessity of delayed gratification, citing how sacrifices made in the present can lead to future rewards.

For anyone balancing work, school, and life, her advice resonates: "To do well and achieve at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus."

Mentorship, Support, and Building Community

A standout lesson is the value of seeking help and building a support network. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse encourages students to engage with faculty, campus resources, and mentors—even those who may not share similar backgrounds. She credits her success to mentors who pushed her with compassion and honesty, reminding listeners that real growth comes from accountability and empathy.

Navigating Change and Overcoming Challenges

From moving across states, adapting to new cultures, and overcoming imposter syndrome as a first-generation student, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how each experience built the resilience necessary for graduate school and beyond. Her candid stories about culture shock, isolation, and finding her community in Michigan are both relatable and motivating for anyone facing similar transitions.

Final Takeaway

This episode of Victors in Grad School offers invaluable insights on overcoming setbacks, embracing change, and building meaningful connections. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse's journey is a testament to persistence and the lasting rewards of pursuing a path that aligns with both passion and purpose. If you're navigating your own educational journey, tune in for encouragement, practical advice, and inspiration to keep going—no matter where you start or what challenges you face.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Each person that is thinking about graduate school will go through a different experience and will be on their own journey as that leads them to a specific program, a specific degree, and then beyond the program into the world of work and what you plan to do with that degree itself. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of the journeys that they've been on, whether they are currently in graduate school, graduated a while back, or whatever their journey was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: But each person can share with you something a little bit different. So today I'm really excited to be able to introduce you to a new guest. Dr. Lisa Laperouse is with us today. And Dr. Laparouse is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint, but she's also also the director of the Inclusive History Project at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she has her own graduate school journey that led her from being in California to Arizona to Michigan and being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited for her to be able to reflect back and share some of her own experiences with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Dr. Laperouse, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:01:46]: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: So I want to take you back in time and I want to go back because I know that you did your undergraduate degree at the University of California, Davis. And at some point during that time at UC Davis, you made a decision. You made a decision because you were getting a Bachelor of Arts degree in Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies. And at some point you made a decision to keep going and to go on further for a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making those decisions?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:20]: Well, let me give you a little bit of background information. So I'm a first generation college student. And so the idea was sold to me early on. In elementary school, we went to Mott Field where they have NASA Aerospace, and they constantly said, if you went to college, you'd make a lot of money. So in fifth grade, I was like, sign me up. And I was very Impressed with my mock fields, I was like, I'm going to be an engineer. Engineers make great money. And so that was my thought process through middle school, through high school, until I went to college.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:55]: I went to college and I was a high performer at unfortunately a low performing school. So what that means is I did not have the best academic preparation for university life. And I think I started out having this idea of, well, you know, I played sports, I was class president, you know, all I have to do is go to school. So this is going to be easy. In my first semester I was on academic probation and I quickly had to change up my study habits and my focus because I thought, oh, this is so embarrassing, I'm the first to go and I'm going to be the first to get kicked out. So part of that though was I was still interested in pursuing engineering. And engineering requires you to take a lot of advanced math courses. And as a high schooler, I had the option.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:03:51]: My school did not offer calculus. If you wanted to take calculus, you had to be bused to a different school at 7 o' clock in the morning before school actually started. And I was class president and I had the option to take the leadership class with my friends or calculus. And I made the decision to hang out with my friends in leadership rather than calculus. So the first time I ever saw calculus was in a quarter system. So U of M Flint is, is on a semester system. A quarter system changes classes every about seven weeks. That is not how you want to experience calculus for your first time.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:04:28]: There were a lot of tears, a lot of office hours, and by my second semester I had realized that I can continue down this pathway, but it was going to be very difficult. I was rocking these humanities, I was doing really well and we'd have to read like seven books a semester. And I thought, well, this is going to be embarrassing. I told everybody it was going to be an engineer. I had the T shirt, but I ended up needing to change my major and then I changed it to Women and Gender Studies. What's now Women and Gender Studies was gender studies then. And to be honest with you, I didn't know what other job there would be other than becoming a professor with that job. So.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:13]: And I also was embarrassed that I had to change my major. And I had told everyone I was going to be this great engineer. So now I said if I tell them I'm going to become a professor without really having any idea what I was talking about. I thought that would be acceptable in my grandfather who was very Important to me. I grew up for the majority of my first 15 years of life with my grandparents. His response was, well, that's not too shabby. So I got the seal of approval to pursue that. So my process was, okay, I need to go to graduate school and become a professor.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:48]: But again, I really didn't know what that meant. And also at the time that I was studying undergrad, this was the time that affirmative action was being challenged. Ethnic studies, any type of branches out of history that wasn't just U.S. history were being challenged, like the validity of those. And so I was also thinking about job prospects. Was there going to be a department available to me to work? And so when I went into my master's program, which was at the University of Arizona, it was a joint program between Mexican American studies and public health. And then again, there was still challenges about the utility of a Mexican American studies degree. So when I decided to go for my PhD, I decided to go into a more traditional, direct relationship between the, the DEGR and an employment opportunity.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:06:45]: So I went into public health.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]: Every person goes on when they're thinking about going to graduate school. They, they go through their own journey to determine where do I want to go, what do I want to do, what type of field do I want to study? Kind of what you were talking about. And you ended up at the University of Arizona. So talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself. What was going through your head as you were looking at different programs and trying to determine what would be the best fit and what made the University of Arizona the best fit for you?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:13]: So I think the undergrad is really about self discovery and figuring out what are you really passionate about and what are you good at. And I had taken a special elective course with somebody that was in public health. I didn't even know that existed. I thought the only way to study health was to become a doctor. And I was not interested in that. I am something that's called a sympathetic vomiter. If you vomit, I'm going to vomit. I have a very weak stomach.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:45]: I just knew that I was not cut out for that. But learning about myself, learning about history, learning about my community, really was exciting to me. I was very interested to that. And that work I would complete first. And so that's some of the things you want to look for is what are you gravitating towards, what are you doing really well in school? What do you leave to the side because you're like, oh, this is agonizing. And that may mean you Know, unfortunately, changing your major, but the benefit of going to college is that you do get to pick your career. Like for me, most of my family do jobs because they, that's what they have to do to pay the bills. I have the privilege of doing something not only to pay the bills, but something I enjoy and get fulfillment out of.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:08:32]: So when I was making that transition, I applied to both PhD programs and master's programs and I was pretty defeated. How I decided to go to Arizona was I only got accepted to one program, so it was an easy choice and I had a very good gpa. But I think for undergrads that are thinking about graduate school, something to think about is PhD programs have really small acceptance. They accept cohorts, and a large cohort is 10 to 15 people. And they're mostly going to select, I would say probably 90% of them, if not more, will select somebody that already has a Master's. So it's important to look at the Master's programs as well and things that align with your service, things that align with your grades and any type of clubs that you did, because then they can see that you have this outstanding interest in that area for your graduate school. So for me, I had done an honors thesis in preparation to try and get accepted into a graduate program, knowing that this would give me some research experience so that I would be a more attractive candidate and hopefully get a position as a research assistant in graduate school. How I learned about the Mexican American Studies program at the University of Arizona was I was on campus.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:09:53]: I used to hang out on campus all the time and there was a poster on a bulletin board and it was not well publicized. And so they were actually quite surprised to see an out of state student applied to their position. And I was part of their first graduating class and it was a great fit. But some of the things that I did consider that some people may want to also think about is I did know that I wanted to go to graduate school. I had talked to a lot of people about it and there were lots of people that told me that they planned to go back to graduate school. But I noticed that they were five and 10 years out and still hadn't did that. And I was like, I don't want to be in that situation. Also, I was very cognizant of, unfortunately my parents did not qualify for school loans.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:10:41]: So all of my education was funded by myself, myself taking out school loans, scholarships. So I was very aware of after six months those school loans were going to kick in and I was going to have to start paying those back. And I didn't want to get a job and start a lifestyle that my income would support and then not want to go back to being a starving student again. So I was like, let me just stay a poor student all the way through and just get this done early on and not promise myself I'm going to do it and then never complete that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: And then after that master's degree, you went on and you continued to get Another degree, a PhD in health behavior and Health Education at the University of Michigan. That's a far distance away from where you did your bachelor's and your master's degree. And you went from warmer weather to very cold weather in the winters and having to adjust and really push yourself out of a comfort zone of being in an area where you probably were more comfortable and you knew kind of the culture and you. And you felt a part of the culture where then you moved to a brand new area. So talk to me about that decision process and how you ended up at the University of Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:11:58]: So when I was an undergrad, I did not graduate with high honors. And so I made it a personal mission that I was going to graduate with honors in my master's program, and I did graduate with a 4.0. However, they did not have high honors at my university, which I thought I was going to get the cum laude distinction, but the school didn't allow that. I should say, too, it's so important to have that high gpa because I did not test well on my gre, my graduate record exam. Same thing with the sat. And we know that one of the highest predictors of those scores is your area zip code. So it has to do a lot with the resources that are available to an individual. So, you know, I think I faced a lot of mental challenges, emotional challenges, about whether or not I fit in a university, because I just didn't have the same pedigree or the same experiences as others.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:06]: And it did take me having to think things through and remember that, no, I'm the one that's sitting in those classes. I'm the one that's doing those exams that I also deserve a place there. But that has remained an ongoing challenge. You know, I'm currently, I'm the only tenured Latina professor that I know on our campus, and that's a lonely space to be in. And that comes with some challenges. If I start getting heated in a meeting and are they going to stereotype me as the spicy Latina or whatever? So. So I got a 4.0. So what that meant was I applied to the top five public health programs in the country and I was accepted into Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:48]: And it's, I'll be honest with you, I only got into one program and that was U of M. And so I'm a religious person. I was like, okay, God has directed me. He only gave me one option for my master's program and one option for my PhD. And so I had only been to the snow once in my life before moving to Michigan. I didn't own a stitch of black clothing because you don't wear black when you live in Arizona. I only had tank tops and flip flops and shorts. So I was completely ill prepared to be in Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:14:23]: Also living on the west coast. I'm from the Bay Area. There's a lot of ethnic diversity. Did not that experience that so much in Michigan in Ann Arbor, even though Ann Arbor is a large campus. So that was also challenging in my PhD program too. That was the first time that I had ever been around a lot of students of color that were wealthy and were not first generation students. So it took me some time to kind of find my people in my support network that I had some commonalities. And there were actually a group of us Latinas from California that were first gen that hung out and kind of supported each other.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:15:04]: But yeah, it was definitely a culture shock. So I mean everything I remember when I, when I got here, everybody was driving American made cars. You know, because you have Ford, you have GM here and back in the Bay Area everybody drove Hondas. And I was like, where are all the Hondas? Where are the people with the piercings? Where's all the colored hair? Like I was just so used to a different way of life. And so I think that can be an unexpected challenge of how hard it's going to be to kind of integrate yourself into a new kind of environment. And so that does take getting outside your comfort zone and meeting people, joining clubs, getting out of the house and trying to find your community so that you do have that support. Because fortunately for me, as much as my family wanted to be supportive, they had never gone through the experiences that I had in college. So it was really hard for them to wrap their head around what the challenges were or why I was so upset about not doing well on the exam.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:16:07]: And actually my mom had asked me to leave college a couple of times because I called home crying saying it was so hard. And she was like, if this is going to be this distressing to you, Then maybe you should leave. And I thought, oh my God, what bad advice. Like I'll suck it up, you know, so it's difficult, but it's not impossible. Find your people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: So you found success in your master's degree, your doctorate degree. And as you moved into those different places, there are different expectations and different expectations from being an undergraduate student to being a master's student, to being a doctoral student. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And as you think back to the transition to the University of Arizona, the University of Michigan, and to the different programs and the different expectations of faculty, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those programs? And it may be different at both the master's and doctoral level.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:09]: I think the very first thing I had to do, especially after that first semester being on academic program probation, is understanding my why. Why was I there? Why was this important? What was that long term goal and making sure that my education was my priority. It couldn't be socializing with my friends, it couldn't be. Like I said at the time, there was affirmative action being challenged. It wasn't sleeping on the steps and doing the hunger strike, it was going to rallies and stuff. But my primary goal was to graduate. And so that really meant prioritizing and making sacrifices to ensure that that was always at the forefront of what I was doing. And I would have to say that that was the case all throughout.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:55]: You know, when I had a lot of friends that didn't go to college and they were buying fancy cars and they always had money and I was like trying to scrape together 20 bucks to buy a pizza. And I thought, wow, like they have these great lifestyles. What am I doing? And you really have to accept, accept delayed gratification because eventually the tables did turn where that nice sports car, well, they're still driving it 10 years later and you know, they took a lot longer to move out of their parents homes. And so the fruits of your labor do show up, but it's not necessarily as quickly as you'd like. And so coming to terms with that, I think is also important for myself. I've lived across the country for a very long time from my family. And I had to again understand for myself why that sacrifice was necessary to keep going. Because it's hard.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:18:57]: You know, I missed all the birthdays, all the big celebrations, but again, I had specific goal that I had in mind and I kept that as A priority. And that's not to say I never went home, but it wasn't the same as living in the same city or the same state where you can go home for the barbecues and all this other stuff. You know, there were a lot of things that I did miss. So I think the delayed gratification, I think continuing to prioritize your education as first as a faculty person, I know a lot of students have to work full time. I had to work also, but I worked on campus. I worked jobs that were, I would say, complimentary to my work schedule. Because to do well and to achieve like at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:19:48]: And sometimes it's not the right time to go to school. I'm not saying that you're not cut out for school because if you would have looked at my profile in high school, child of a teenage mother, you know, I had all the indicators that I would not be a college, let alone a PhD, somebody with a PhD. So I think also you have to find the self esteem in yourself to keep going and the courage because there will be people, instructors included, that'll say that maybe you're not cut out for this, but you have to work with the tenacity and a resilience to continue to push through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:25]: So as you think about your graduate degree and you think about the different degrees that you received along the way, you started in one area, you ended up in public health. And as you reflect back on your undergrad, your grad, your doctoral degrees, talk to me about the interplay with those degrees. Because not everybody, when they go and get an undergraduate degree is going to get a job specifically in that specific area. You may end up in a very different place than where you began. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and the learning and how it built upon each other to where you ended in teaching in the area that you're teaching now.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:21:06]: I really kind of think as an undergraduate education as the mechanism to help you identify credible information and to really be a critical thinker. This is the time where you really learn how to identify sources of information and evaluate them to figure out are there motives behind the person that is advertising this or making this statement. So you become a critical thinker and those critical thinking systems skills are applicable in any type of position. I feel like in the master's program, now that you have identified where to find information, you have a better command of knowledge in your specific areas. So then you can start to really Craft important questions about the gaps that remain there, and start to move science forward by pursuing new kind of pathways to understanding certain phenomena. And, you know, for people that have historically been excluded or underrepresented in universities, their voices, their perspectives are important because we may not have heard them before. So I think the first thing is about kind of discovery and finding information. The second part in the master's is really about beginning to start to ask our own questions.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:22:30]: And then in the PhD, I think it's about creating knowledge. It's not just asking the questions, but now pursuing those questions and helping to find answers, moving science again forward and challenging existing thought processes. So with the inclusive history project, one of the things that we do is there are narratives that are put forward and, you know, they're evidence based. But one of the things that we do is say, well, whose voices are represented and whose voices are missing? And is this a comprehensive understanding of these events or are there perspectives that are missing and maybe can give us a better and more nuanced understanding? So again, it's continuing to be a critical thinker, but it's also learning how to use the skills and apply them to challenge or to expand what we know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now, as you think about graduate students or individuals thinking about becoming a graduate student, and you think back to your, your own experiences, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school, no matter what they are going into, that would help them to find success sooner?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:23:44]: Ask for help. That is what faculty are here for. And as faculty go on these retreats and we think very deeply about the courses that we teach, the content, the textbooks, I think students would be really surprised how much thought and time goes into planning these things. And when we've gone to these retreats and they ask what inspires you? Everybody mentions students. So most of us do this job because we really find it fulfilling and we like to work with students. And so I know for myself, I was very intimidated being in the academic environment. I didn't speak in class until my junior year of undergrad because I was so terrified of saying something dumb. Now we have a hard time keeping me quiet in any kind of situation.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:24:33]: But you cannot do this alone. You need to have support. And sometimes your friends or your peers are not the best support for you, because sometimes it's the blind leading the blind. And so it's so important to get to know your resources on campus as well as your faculty. And don't wait. It's so much easier for faculty to help you when you approach them sooner rather than later. And, you know, for myself, I had a lot of life happen to me when I was in school. And so, you know, find that person who's not just going to be a cheerleader and tell you everything's great, but somebody find a good mentor that is going to be honest with you, hold you to accountability, but also do that with empathy and compassion.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:22]: And related to that, I think that I was under the impression that to find a good mentor, the mentor had to be similar to me. They had to be a woman. They had to be, you know, Latina. And I joke about this, but I've had mentors and I've had tormentors. And the tormentors were people that really just broke me down and said, you know, these are all the things you're doing wrong. And it was really defeating. And one of my very best mentors was Dr. Woody Neighbors at U of M, and he's an African American male.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:58]: And so I say this to say, don't discount somebody just because they don't share the same background as you. Find somebody that is invested in your success. But again, that's going to hold you to a high standard, because those relationships will really help you when you do encounter challenges. And that is inevitable in the PhD program. Sometimes you have people that have been successful all the way through. They rock undergrad, they rock their Masters program, and then they get into the PhD program, and all of a sudden they're starting to have some challenges. And that can be really emotionally tolling because you see yourself as this very successful person. And so, again, it's really important to have that support to make sure that you just don't go, don't complete your degree, because that happens a lot, too.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:26:46]: So being connected, I think, is so core to being well. And I know everybody loves the online environment, but making the commitment to go to campus to be involved in different things, you're only going to be in school for a small blip of your life. And so it's worth the investment, because this is where in my PhD program, I met so many people that they're writing books. I mean, they are doing fabulous things. I can use them for job references, job leads. You never know where that relationship could possibly take you. So it's worth investing that time and effort beyond just the classroom.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]: Well, Elise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And it is definitely something that I think that everybody can learn from, because all of us go through these ups and downs, and it's kind of a roller coaster as you go through graduate school and hopefully it's more ups than downs. But there are always going to be those peaks and valleys and you shared some of your own as you went through your own experience. But I truly want to say thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:27:53]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradofficemflint.edu.

Are you considering graduate school or seeking inspiration for your academic journey? This week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast is a must-listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, the show features a rich conversation with Dr. George White, Professor of Strategic Management and Director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program at UM-Flint.

The episode opens with Dr. George White sharing his unique educational path, beginning as the first in his family to attend college. Coming from a rural, modest background, his story starts with working night shifts and attending a community college in Alabama. He highlights how determination and hard work paved his way to the University of Alabama and later, a life-changing exposure to Asian history and culture.

A key theme of the podcast is the role of inspiration and mentorship. Dr. George White recalls the professors who encouraged his academic curiosity and opened doors to opportunities abroad, including studying in Taiwan and teaching English in Asia. This global perspective led him to pursue a law degree, and later, an LLM in International Commercial Law.

Throughout the interview, listeners hear about the importance of having a clear plan and passion for your studies. Dr. George White emphasizes that success in graduate school isn't about being the smartest person in the room — it's about hard work, dedication, and being genuinely excited about what you're learning. He also opens up about his experiences consulting and teaching in China, which inspired him to further pursue an MBA and a PhD in International Business.

The episode is filled with actionable advice for prospective graduate students: develop a five- or ten-year plan, engage with your professors, and choose a program that aligns with your interests and career goals. Time management and perseverance are repeatedly highlighted as essential ingredients for success.

If you're seeking inspiration from someone who's charted a truly international, interdisciplinary career — leveraging degrees in history, law, and business — this episode is sure to motivate you. Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and learn how passion, planning, and relentless hard work can help you thrive on the path to academic and professional achievement.

Ready to be inspired? Listen now and prepare to embark on your own journey as a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we have an opportunity. We have an opportunity to work together to help you define success in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school, that is in graduate school, has a unique journey that you will follow for yourself as you move forward and through that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: And though it may be unique, there are commonalities that most every person goes through as they go through that graduate school journey that you can start planning for right now. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find ways to be able to be successful in this journey and find tips, tactics, et cetera, things that can help you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to have different people, new people on, to share their own experience. And today we have another great guest. Dr. George White is with us. And George is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: He's a professor of Strategic Management and the director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's at a unique path through his own education that has led him to where he is today. So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey. George, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. George White [00:01:40]: Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: Well, I really am excited to have you here today, and I know that your journey has been one that is unique, and you have had many curves along the path. So I want to take you back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Alabama and you got a Bachelor of Arts degree in history. And at some point, either in your undergraduate work or after, when you started working and getting some experience, you made a decision to go back to graduate school and to get a law degree. And I'm really interested, first and foremost, for us to talk about this. And then I know you went beyond that, but bring me back to the point in which you determined for yourself that graduate school was the next step. What was going through your head?

Dr. George White [00:02:25]: Yeah, so, oh, boy, it's very long journey for me. What happened was I'm essentially the very first kid in my immediate family to go to college. So I started off in community College at a very nice community college in Hanceville, Alabama, near Coleman, Alabama, called Hanceville Community College. And so I went there part time. I worked full time like many of the students here at um, Flint do anyhow, and actually work night shift and at a technology company producing chipboards. And then that company was paying for my education, so I would go to school during the day. So I'd get up at like 6 in the morning, study, go to school, maybe study some more, hop in the car, go work and repeat that. And I wasn't sleeping a whole lot during that time.

Dr. George White [00:03:14]: So that sort of was my gateway into college. And just going to community college was an eye opener for me. But what happened was at a certain point I decided I wanted to be a full time student. After going through the grind of working and trying to do that and go to school part time, my family told me I could go full time to school if I wanted to do that. So I'll never forget when I applied to be accepted in the University of Alabama. When I got that acceptance letter, it was a big deal because I grew up in a very rural part of Alabama and actually was raised on a chicken farm in East Texas. So basically a farming family wasn't exposed that much to higher education. And here I am going off to the University of Alabama.

Dr. George White [00:03:55]: My first year at Alabama, I just took classes in general. I was a history major. But what happened my senior year, I took a few courses in Asian history. I'll never forget. I took a course by a professor, his name was Lee Butler, he's actually a graduate from University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, who was a professor in the history department there. And it was on Japanese culture and coming from basically the backwoods of Alabama, you know, being a Southern redneck that really taking that course, we read books on architecture in Japan. We learned about aikabuno, you know, flower arranging, sumo wrestling. That class really was, was my first point of entry into learning about the rest of the world.

Dr. George White [00:04:36]: And then I took another course from a professor who became my mentor, named Dr. Ronald Roble, on Korean history. And I knew nothing about Korea until I took that course. And these were during my senior year at Alabama. So what happened was I became very fascinated by Asia and just the rest of the world in general. And Dr. Robol, who I got to know quite well. I worked very hard, tried to do well in his course.

Dr. George White [00:05:01]: He basically encouraged me to stay at Alabama and become a graduate student there. He was the director of their Asian studies program. And so I stayed there, worked under him became as a teaching assistant in the classes he was teaching and took classes in Asian studies and started studying Chinese language. Then what happened was I ended up receiving a scholarship to go study Chinese at Fengji University, which is in Taichung, Taiwan. And I did that for about a year. And studying abroad was very interesting to me. I learned quite a bit. But what I really enjoyed was going out.

Dr. George White [00:05:34]: And there's lots of opportunities in Taiwan that teach English as a second language. You can actually make a lot of money doing that. So I started doing quite a bit of that. I taught at a night school in Taichung, and then I taught at a private kindergarten in the morning and was making a lot of money. I had, like, a little penthouse I was renting in downtown Taichung. And it was a really good life. And what happened was I was there on the scholarship, but one of my employers wanted me to essentially convert my visa status from a student to, like, a working visa. So to make a very long story short, I ended up traveling abroad to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:10]: Bumped into my wife the first day I was in the Philippines. Left the Philippines, went back to Taiwan, realized it's going to be very difficult to get her to Taiwan because of the immigration policy. So I basically moved to the Philippines. I'd saved up a lot of money. I had this little desk in my room of the apartment I was renting. I used to shove all of my cash in that drawer. I didn't even have a bank account there. And I remember just taking all that money I'd made and I moved to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:38]: And basically I became a beach bum in the Philippines for a little while. So got married to my wife. That's what triggered, you know, when I was in the Philippines, I'm like, I have to do something with my life, you know, I mean, who's going to hire somebody with a bachelor's degree in Asian history? And I wanted to continue on. I was very interested in learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I wanted to continue with my education. So I wasn't good at math at that point. I haven't even thought about business. So I did what a lot of individuals do that are more qualitatively experienced and have skill sets in that area.

Dr. George White [00:07:11]: I applied to law school, and my LSAT score for law school wasn't really that great. So there's a school here in Michigan called Cooley Law School in Lansing, which sort of has a very different admissions policy than most other law schools. They usually. They bring in a lot of students, but then they weed them out. You know, it's a very rigorous law school to go through. And what happened was they. They brought. I got accepted to Coley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:07:37]: And that was my. My only opportunity at that point in time. Listed at some other law schools like Syracuse and other universities, because I had interesting background. But I ended up going to Cooley and I studied as a law student there and I concentrated in international law because that was at that point in time, I knew I wanted to do something international in nature. Then what happened was, in law school, I was on the journal, the editorial board for the Cooley Law Journal, which is sort of a prestigious thing in law school. And you get to learn how to edit, and it's research oriented. There was a summer course called Scholarly Writing that I took as an elective course. And I took that course and I wrote a paper and the paper was on trade in Southeast Asia.

Dr. George White [00:08:24]: And I took the paper after I was finished with the class. I did very well in there because it was very interesting to me. I loved to do research and writing. So I was very intrinsically motivated. And when I went through that class, I knew it was something I really enjoyed. And what happened was I took that paper that I wrote for that class and I got it published in an international law journal. And I knew at that time, this is something I can do, and it's something I love to do. And so then one law degree wasn't enough.

Dr. George White [00:08:51]: So I went and actually I went to Emory Law School and worked on an LLM, an advanced law degree in International Commercial Law. And then what happened was, when I was at Emory, this is right around the time when China was joining the WTO, back around 2000, 2001, I did not feel like I'd finished what I had started out to do in Taiwan. So I wanted to get back to Asia and sort of finish what I started there. So I started looking around for jobs to teach law in China. And one thing led to another and a major university hired me to go over to China and spend a year there. I ended up spending two years there, but they hired me to go there and to teach international law as a visiting professor. And that's how it all started. Going back to my bachelor's degree, I found something very fascinating and I wanted to continue with that.

Dr. George White [00:09:41]: I really enjoyed learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I was fascinated by Asia and just international stuff, and I wanted to keep continuing down that path. And then when I got the law school and I took this course on scholarly writing where I could Bring my passion into that. That's what really triggered everything for me. And I knew that's what I wanted to do moving forward with my career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]: Now a law degree is a terminal degree. You went on and got an LLM, but then a few years later you decided to keep going and getting both an MBA as well as then going and getting a PhD, another terminal degree.

Dr. George White [00:10:19]: I got my MBA at the same time as I was working on my PhD, which is sort of rare.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:24]: So talk to me about that and what made you decide that you wanted to continue your education to get those additional degrees beyond the terminal degrees you already had? Yeah.

Dr. George White [00:10:34]: Okay. So very practical. I was in China at the time, you know, I, I accepted that gig to go and teach at Habenomy University again. It was right around the time when China was opening up to the rest of the world. They were much more free market oriented than they currently are. I mean, they were following the Deng Xiaoping framework of opening up and trying to develop relationship with the Western world. So there were lots of opportunities at the time for foreigners with backgrounds like myself and interests like myself to consult and do things. So what happened was I was not in Beijing or Shanghai.

Dr. George White [00:11:10]: I was in a secondary city, a little town of only 8 million people called Shijiazhuang, which is just south of Beijing. And there were lots of opportunities because of my unique background and skillset. So I started consulting and I was consulting with law firms as a foreign expert. And then I ended up being approached by development zones to consult with them and help act as a liaison between the Chinese government and foreign companies that were coming in and investing in China. And I started basically backed into doing a lot of business consulting. And at that time I did not have any formal business background or education whatsoever. I was learning by doing, essentially. So I had a friend that was a former professor of mine at Thomas Cooley at Cooley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:11:54]: At that time he had moved to University of Miami, but we stayed in touch. And so about once a month he would contact me and we would talk because he was doing a lot of research on China and then I was doing research on China. So he would call me up about once a month and we would chat. And I told him, you know what, I'm doing all this consulting now in China and I don't have this formal education, so I feel like I need to go and get an MBA or something. And at that time I had already started publishing a good bit. And he goes, george, George, you ought to think about going and obtaining a Ph.D. you know, joining a Ph.D. program in international business.

Dr. George White [00:12:28]: International business, really? He goes, yes, all your research is related to international business, because I've been publishing quite a bit on international trade, foreign direct investment, and different issues related to companies operating in Asia. So I'll never forget I studied for the GMAT, which is the entrance examination for MBAs and most business graduate degrees. I studied in a library in northern China during the winter, like the winter we have right here in Michigan where there is no heat. I'll never forget that. And I actually took the GMAT in Beijing, China. And then I applied to some PhD programs and there was this new doctoral program that had just started up in international business at University of Texas at El Paso. And they accepted me. I'll never forget, forget when I received the letter and they actually called me when I was in China.

Dr. George White [00:13:17]: When that happened, it changed my life. And so I ended up going off to spent two years in China. And after that I transitioned into the PhD program at UT El Paso, where I also earned my MBA as a general MBA in management. It was an extension of what I was already doing. I mean, I had started doing a lot of business consulting in mainland China, and I had no formal background or education. And so I was interested in learning and getting some formal education in business administration. And I ended up going and working on my PhD and then also my MBA. And to this very day, 20 years later, I'm still using leveraging my legal background and my interest in Asia in my research and what I teach and do here at Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:01]: Now, with every degree, when you transition into those degrees, there is a transition because the way in which you're educated at the bachelor's level is different than at the master's level, is different than in law school, is different than in a PhD. Every type of school is a little bit different. Every type of academic area is going to be a little bit different. So talk to me about some of the things that you learned as you made those transitions through the different degrees that you went into and what you had to do to be able to first transition into graduate school. And what did you have to do to continue throughout the entire graduate school experience to maintain that success?

Dr. George White [00:14:42]: Yeah, I mean, and this is something I talk to. I'm the director of our doctoral program here at the School of Management at Michigan Flint. So I'm always talking to students about this on a regular basis. You know, I think you need to have a plan. You know, I think it's the first thing you need to really have a Plan. I think the most successful students. What made me successful, I had a passion for what I wanted to do. I mean, I knew what I wanted to do and I was determined to do it no matter what.

Dr. George White [00:15:07]: Okay, second thing, you need to have a plan. You need to have like a 5 and 10 year plan. Why am I doing this? How is this going to get me from point A to point B? And then what am I going to do? And you got to be very proactive and dedicated. I mean, for example, in all of my courses, I remember my doctoral program, my doctoral program in the law school as well, pretty much all my courses. And I was never the smartest student in any of those classes. And I'm definitely not the smartest faculty member here at the School of management neither. But one thing I can say, I worked very hard. On Fridays, I would be up studying, working on Saturdays.

Dr. George White [00:15:41]: Whatever I had to do to be successful, I would make that happen. So I was very proactive. All the faculty knew me very well in all the programs. Starting my bachelor's all the way through, I was very proactive, interacting with the faculty members, making sure I'm doing the right thing in the classes. How can I improve what I'm doing? I was very interested in learning and I had a passion for what I was working on and a plan of why am I doing what I'm doing? Okay, I think that's very important. Also, just generally, you need to be excited about what you're working on. You know, when you select a graduate degree, I mean, I understand the practicality of choosing something that's going to help you to get from point A to point B, whether it's getting a promotion or, or moving in a new area, whatever that is. But you got to have some passion for what you're doing.

Dr. George White [00:16:25]: I mean, at the end of the day, it's a grind. Graduate school is not easy. You got to be dedicated. It takes a lot of time and effort. You're paying a lot of money for whatever degree it is, and you got to be able to wake up in the morning and be motivated or it's just going to be much more difficult for you to be successful. So that's really what made me like, I did not enjoy law school. I did not have any fun in law school. Right.

Dr. George White [00:16:48]: That's why I'm not a law professor. But, but I did enjoy some of the subjects that the law school had to offer, and I gravitated towards those and that's what helped me get through it. For example, like the other Graduate degrees were very different. I really had more passion for them. But at the end of the day, you got to have a passion for what you're doing. I mean, life is too short to be miserable and you got to have a plan. I think just throwing yourself into a degree program with not having a clear vision of what you plan to do, I don't think is really the right approach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:17]: I know you are a faculty member, you are a administrator. You've worked in higher education now for a number of years here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back to the education that you received in all the different facets of the education, talk to me about how those different degrees and the different experiences that you've had have helped you to do the work that you're doing on a daily basis.

Dr. George White [00:17:40]: That's a complex question. First of all, I feel very blessed. Position I'm in is I've worked well. My wife has to remind me that I work very hard to get where I'm at. There's this old saying, you need to run scared to be successful. And I've been running scared, meaning I've been working very hard, never thinking I'm doing enough. How can I constantly improve what I'm doing? I've been doing that for a very long time and I'm still doing it to today, even though I'm a full professor and directing a doctoral program, etc. Etc.

Dr. George White [00:18:08]: But for me, I get this question a lot from various individuals, students in our program. Individuals are out in industry. You know, you have a law degree and you have a bachelor's in history. You know how in the world you become a professor of business. For me, it all sort of fits together. For example, my research today is on how companies strategize, you know, develop in and execute strategy in Asia. And I look at that from a legal perspective, I've sort of become like an expert in the international business and strategic management community on how the legal environment has an influence on foreign companies, multinationals operating in Asia. So I have really worked hard to try to leverage my interest and background in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:18:53]: I go over the Asia quite a bit. You know, I mean, I. I'm a visiting professor in the Philippines and also in. In Thailand right now. And I go over there quite a bit and give seminars and talks and do research there. But so I have that from my. All the way back from my bachelor's days 30 years ago. And then my legal degree, although I'm not a lawyer right now, I use that in My research, all my research focuses on how the legal environment influences multinational strategies in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:19:20]: And so I try to bring all of that education together in bring these insights into my class, classes that I teach. I consult on the side a little bit in Asia, doing that type of stuff. And then my research is all focused on that. But at the end of the day, I think that for anybody that has sort of a unique background, you should try and leverage that, especially if you're interested in that type of work and because that's what's going to make you unique and provide possible opportunities moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: Now I know you talk to a lot of graduate students and you work with students that are coming into your Doctorate of Business Administration program, but you have your own experiences as well. And I guess as you look back at your own experiences, not only personally, but also experiences in working with other graduate students and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, law or some other field. What are some tips that you might want to offer other students considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. George White [00:20:22]: I grew up in a very poor family. I remember my mom, she worked as a waitress at Pizza Hut. This is back when Pizza Hut was actually really good, when people would go and eat in the Pizza Hut and she used to wait tables and she had this big jar in her room that she would dump her change in from her tips. I'll never forget that we had to live with my grandparents, you know, and she put herself through nursing school. And then when I was in high school, she was working like two or three jobs. I never saw my mom because she was trying to provide for us. And then most of the rest of my family were entrepreneurial, that self made had their own companies. And so I learned from that that hard work is essential to success.

Dr. George White [00:20:59]: And so again, going back to what I mention mentioned earlier, I've always worked very hard and because if you work hard, things will come to you. It might not be the easiest path, but there's no substitute for hard work. And hard work will provide you with opportunities at the end of the day. So I just wanted to go back to that tips again. I think you have to have a passion for what you're when you go to graduate school. And I do see this a lot. I see a lot of students coming in. I teach in our MBA program and I see a lot of students coming in our MBA program that are just in the MBA to get the mba.

Dr. George White [00:21:33]: Okay, now of course that's up to them. That, that's what they want to do. But I've noticed the students that have a passion for learning and are interested in like the concepts, ideas, theories we're talking about in our classes that go beyond just getting the degree, they tend to enjoy the process and the journey that they're on a lot more than those that don't. So, I mean, I think it's important for you to find a program that you're interested in. You're going to be excited about taking the class classes in and so forth. Also, again, there's not a replacement for hard work. And this goes back to my discussing all this earlier. I've never been the smartest in any of my classes, but I'm a grinder, you know, I've had to grind things out.

Dr. George White [00:22:14]: But at the end of the day, you will get to where you want to be if you put in the effort and you work hard and do your very best in your classes and in the program. So I think that's very important. Also, I think most students these days, or most students are not full time, but a lot of them are working jobs and so forth. You got to be able to manage and schedule things properly. You know, I think time management these days has become more important than ever before. And so being able to develop process you have for yourself, you know, like a schedule for yourself when you do get into the program will definitely help because it will keep you sort of segmented to where you can balance out how you get through the program week to week. So that would sort of be my advice. But I mean, the big thing is you got to really be excited about what you're planning to go into.

Dr. George White [00:23:02]: And that will. That will, I think, make it to where you will get through the program a lot easier and you'll learn a lot more at the end of the day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]: Well, George, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know there's a lot more to it, but you shared some amazing tips and thoughts on kind of the journey that you took, but also things that people can do. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. George White [00:23:22]: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity and thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.