Victors in Grad School

Are you thinking about taking the next step toward a graduate degree, but feeling uncertain about what that journey might look like? On this week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melissa Winter, Director of Housing and Dining at the University of Michigan-Flint, to discuss her distinct path through two graduate programs, the bumps along the way, and the keys to sustaining success as a student and professional.

Melissa's story begins with her undergraduate experience at Oakland University, where active campus involvement ignited her interest in higher education as a career. Yet, instead of jumping straight into grad school, she intentionally took a year off to reflect and thoroughly research programs, underscoring the importance of thoughtful decision-making rather than rushing into big commitments.

Her path led her to a master's in Higher Education and Student Personnel at Kent State University—a decision partly influenced by supportive mentors and the overall fit she felt with the campus and cohort. Later, after several years working (including living abroad for eight years!), Melissa pursued a second master's degree—this time, an online, accelerated MAT (Master of Arts in Teaching) program designed to help her transition careers and relocate to the United States. Even though she ultimately didn't pursue teaching, the experience provided clarity about her true passion for working with college students.

Throughout the episode, a few key themes shine through: Resilience in the Face of Challenge—Melissa candidly shares how she struggled to find community and questioned her choices early in her first grad program. Thanks to thoughtful guidance from faculty, she stuck with it, ultimately finding her stride and forming lasting connections.

Adaptability and Time Management—Melissa discusses how graduate school taught her to be tremendously organized, balancing assistantships, coursework, and family. She found creative ways to collaborate with classmates, like turning commutes into productive work sessions, and prioritizing time for studies early in the mornings.

The Power of Community and Mentorship—Her advice for prospective grad students? Stay focused on your goals and actively seek out mentors and support networks. Success, she says, isn't just about high grades—it's about serving others and helping students thrive.

If you're contemplating grad school, Melissa's journey is a must-listen reminder that the path isn't always linear, but with grit, intention, and support, you can chart your own fulfilling course. Tune into the full episode for even more practical insights and inspiration!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Melissa Winter [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to have these conversations with you. I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and be able to take. To find ways that you can take information from these conversations and be able to turn it into something that is going to help you to be able to be even more successful in this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: No matter if you are at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is graduate school right for me? Or if you applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are, there are still things that you can do to be able to be successful one day at a time. And that's why this podcast exists. It's here to be able to help you on this journey that you're on, for you, to be able to learn from other people that have gone before you. You might learn some things that you're already doing, but hopefully you're going to be learning some new things that others have done before you that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest. Melissa Winter is with us today. And Melissa is the Director of Housing and Dining at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: And she's her own journey that has led her to where she is today. And we're going to be talking about that journey today. So I'm really excited to have her here and to have her share some of her experiences. Melissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Melissa Winter [00:01:44]: Yeah, no problem. Happy to help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: So really excited to have you here. I know that. And I want to start today by turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Oakland University, where you got a bachelor's degree in history and political science. But then at some point, at some point after being out of school for a little bit of time, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a degree, a degree in higher education and student personnel. So I'd like to go back in time to that period of time. I want you to take me back to that moment, that moment that you figured out that you wanted to continue your education with a graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Bring me back to that point, what made you decide graduate school was the right step for you?

Melissa Winter [00:02:32]: Well, it was something that I was considering during my undergraduate degree. I was a very involved student on campus and doing lots of different things. And so it was an interest area of mine. But because I was doing a lot on campus, serving in different leadership roles, felt like I needed a year away from school. So I started doing a job search more locally for some experiences and ended up landing a role in a school environment similar to what I ended up going into. But it allowed me the opportunity to take my time and really take a look at institutions, to look at programs, instead of just jumping in without thinking about it. So for me, taking that year off to really make a solid decision helped me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: Now, I know you made the decision to attend Kent State University and to get a degree in higher education student personnel. And some of this decision might have been, like you said, that you were really involved. But I guess talk to me about the decision making of why you decided to go and get a degree in higher education student personnel, but also why Kent State University.

Melissa Winter [00:03:41]: So I really believed, and I still do to this day, that students taking responsibility for their education and their own involvement is very important. There's a student development theory that is that talks about this. And so that was something that I really espoused to. So jumping into higher ed for me was something that I wanted to be able to contribute back to other students, to encourage them to get involved, take on opportunities as student leaders on their campuses. So that was part of my decision making process. And then in terms of Kent State, I actually did a pretty wide search for institutions. And I did have my dean of students at my undergrad did attend Kent State. And so he suggested it as an option for me to come consider.

Melissa Winter [00:04:25]: And so it was one of the schools that I was considering when I went to visit there. There was a great coordinator that was leading the program at the time. And to be honest, it just felt like the most comfortable for me in terms of the other students that I was interacting with. It just had a great feel for me. And of course, I got an assistantship offer. So it all kind of just lined up and worked out. It was a good program for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:49]: I'm going to delve a little bit into what you learned in that program, but I also know you decided down the road to get another master's degr. And I guess before we pivot too far off, you ended up down the road deciding to get a second master's degree after a number of Years of working. Not everybody would make that choice to go back to school after they get that master's degree. So bring me back to that point and why you made a decision that you wanted to add on and get a second Master's.

Melissa Winter [00:05:20]: So I was actually at a point where I was considering either PhD work or doing something additional. And at the time I was living overseas and trying to find a way to return back to the United States. I'd been living overseas at that point for about eight years and learned of a master's program. It was a MAP program to teach essentially from another institution that I had worked at previously. And it was an accelerated program and thought it was something that seemed like a possibility to me and more of a guarantee for a job more easily, which was why I was considering it. And so it was a Master's in arts and teaching program and it allowed me to do it online. And so there was an opportunity for me to do that. And so that's why I jumped at doing that.

Melissa Winter [00:06:13]: So I learned some things. I ended up not going into teaching. Like I learned some things about myself from that program. There were aspects that I did enjoy, but realized I did really like the higher ed environment and the college student population, just the 18 to 22, 24 year old student and adult learners beyond, I enjoyed that population more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:36]: Even so, you had two different experiences going through graduate school, both very different in regard to the experiences themselves. One being in person, on campus, other, the other being remote and accelerated. Talk to me about transitions. Because every student that goes into graduate school, no matter if it's their first, their second, or whatever it may be, has to go through a transition. They have to transition into graduate school and transition through graduate school. And you found success going through graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experiences that you had?

Melissa Winter [00:07:21]: So in my first graduate program, I actually did hit a bit of a bump. So after about two months into my program, I was coming off the experience of a very involved undergraduate student doing a lot on campus, that feeling of community. And in graduate school, I was going into my program with an off campus assistantship. So it had a different feel. And not only was it different in terms of, in terms of involvement on campus, but it was taking away some of the activity level that I would have been used to. And my role as a graduate student was helping to teach and train undergraduates. I remember there was a point in my program that I actually had contemplated leaving it. I had a conversation with my.

Melissa Winter [00:08:12]: The coordinator of my program said that I was feeling disconnected, essentially. And he guided me through conversation. He wasn't steering me in any way, but he did say, let's get through the semester first before you decide, because this was like late October or something. And he said, let's get through the semester, finish up, and then let's decide what you'd like to do then. And I actually was even considering some other assistantship options that were being offered on the Kent State campus. And ultimately I stuck with the program through that semester. And then I even decided, I'm going to stay with my assistantship. And I ended up staying with both the assistantship and the program for the full two years.

Melissa Winter [00:08:55]: So I think sometimes individuals find it easy to just like, oh, this isn't working at all. I'm going to jump ship. It ended up being great advice, and I stuck through it. My next semester went well. I developed great friendships. It just took time to establish those friendships and community pieces that I wasn't. I was in a new environment from where I was before. So it.

Melissa Winter [00:09:15]: You have to give yourself a little grace and time to establish that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:18]: So as you came back to your second master's degree, did you also find that there were any bumps in the road or any other issues in regards to the different way of learning or the different type of campus experience that you were going through?

Melissa Winter [00:09:32]: Yeah, I mean, learning online, while convenient, it's definitely harder to make the same or develop the same relationships that you would in person. And while I was doing well academically, it was even harder to establish those connections. So you just have to really. If it's something you really want to do, you have to fight to, like, find those connections. And I did to some degree. There were some people who were closer to my age because there were students who were fresh out of undergrad in that program, 22, 23, and then some of us who are in our 40s. So. So you just have to identify people who you can connect with and reach out to, whether.

Melissa Winter [00:10:08]: Whatever their ages. But. And there were some of those and some people that I'm still in touch with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:12]: So it sounds like as you were going through these different programs, there definitely were some mindset shifts that you had to go through for yourself to be able to get yourself in a place where you were ready to continue on through the program. Talk to me about those mindset shifts that you had to do for yourself that helped you be successful in the graduate experiences that you had.

Melissa Winter [00:10:33]: I Think just trying to stay focused on what it is that you came to school to do or to your program, whatever, stay focused on that end goal. There was actually someone else in my higher ed program who did end up dropping out midway through and kind of like the same time frame that I was having my own struggles. And she ended up kind of going down a different career path because of that. But I think because of that conversation that I had with my coordinator and just kind of reminding me to stick to it and stay focused, I think that helped keep me on target.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:09]: And I guess staying on target definitely takes some organization. It takes a lot of different putting things in the right place to be able to prepare yourself and to get yourself where you need to be. Talk to me about time management, especially as a working professional, as a person going through and having an assistantship for your first graduate program, but then having full time work for your second. How did you manage all of that? How did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities, but also the time that it took for you to be able to do the best that you wanted to do.

Melissa Winter [00:11:47]: Certainly in the first program, I would say like the first month or so it took me again a little bit of adjustment. I was used to, I don't want to say taking it easy, but I didn't need to be as organized in my undergraduate degree. And I found myself a couple times where I would work on a paper and I would get some feedback that I knew it wasn't my best work because I had waited and delayed things a bit. But in getting things refocused, managing things, it just was a learning experience, I would say the first month or two, and then realized, you know what? I can do a better job than this. Leaning on people for support, getting feedback from some colleagues. So there was a few of us in grad school that we were commuting down from Cleveland to Kent, which was like a 45, 50 minute drive. And so we would have conversations in the car about our whatever assignments or something that we were working on. It was a great support to get through things, not only just like throwing ideas off one another, but we would kind of go through and read off notes and talk about things as we were like driving down, back and forth.

Melissa Winter [00:12:50]: So that was really helpful too. We were trying to use the most of our time, since we were all sitting in the car together anyways, to try to take advantage of that. That was something that was really helpful in the second degree. I just tried to mold out the time that would work best for me. I would get up early in the morning to do work before anyone got up. Let's say it was a Saturday morning. Instead of waiting until 8 or 9 o', clock, I would be getting up at like 6:30 and start getting some work done. Because I knew I had at that time like a four year old and I would have to take some time with him too.

Melissa Winter [00:13:21]: So you just have to carve the time out of your schedule to make it happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]: You know, graduate school definitely changes you in many different ways and it also changes the way that you do things, the way that you think, work and approach things. So as you think back to your graduate school experiences, how did graduate school change the way that you think, work or approach problems?

Melissa Winter [00:13:44]: I definitely looked at things from certainly more of a professional perspective than from a student mindset. That was one thing that changed. But also in collecting information, I think that that's something that helps me form a decision on something, especially if it's a bigger decision. Obviously when you're working on some graduate school paper or project, you are collect information. And that was a piece that I took into my professional roles as well, like collecting information before you make a decision in some cases and then really relying on some theory in some cases to back up some of your practices that you're doing just to kind of reinforce, you know what, this is the correct way to go. Because these, these are some practices that have happened from others in the past. Those are two key pieces that I think were pretty important as you think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:34]: Back to graduate school and the graduate school experiences that you had as you were going through the program and you think back to that period of time. How did you define success for yourself while you were in your programs? And how has this definition changed over the years?

Melissa Winter [00:14:54]: I think the traditional success is if you got an A on the project or the paper, like hey, you got a 4.0 like that success or something high mark to show that you did well on something. However, I think in obviously in a professional role, success is when you're able to serve students. In this case, when student you see the success of others, whether it's they're getting their degree or they have done a great program on campus, or you have helped encourage and increase student enrollment on your campus, increase student satisfaction. There's lots of pieces that you can help impact. There was great attendance at an event and not just the attendance piece, but there was an overall positive feeling by that event happening. So I think it's more about seeing the success of others versus your own success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:50]: So as you Think about other people, other students that are considering graduate school in the future, and you think back to your own graduate education. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduating an education that would help them find success sooner?

Melissa Winter [00:16:06]: I already mentioned this, but one thing is just keep your eyes on the prize, so to speak. Like, stay focused on what you want to do, but also to reach out to people around you. Identify a mentor or someone who can help guide you when you're facing those moments when you're struggling or needing some input on some research or a project. Reach out to individuals who can help guide you through that. You need support. It's silly. Think you can just completely have blinders on and do everything yourself? Having that help really can help you get through it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: Well, Melissa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journeys today, for sharing the walls that you hit along the road, but also the successes and the turning points. Because I think everyone has to understand that it's not always going to be smooth sailing. There may be things that you have to deal with and things that you have to work on as you are going through this process for yourself. And you definitely have to understand that just because you hit a rough patch doesn't mean you shouldn't keep pushing forward and that you shouldn't prevail. So I really appreciate you sharing that and I truly wish you all the best.

Melissa Winter [00:17:17]: All right, great. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

This week's episode of Victors in Grad School features an insightful conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Amy Hovey, CEO and Executive Director of the Michigan State Housing Development Authority. Amy shares her unique journey back to graduate education and offers invaluable advice for anyone considering elevating their career with an advanced degree.

Amy's story is one that resonates with working professionals, parents, and lifelong learners alike. After graduating from Alma College, Amy dove into her career—first in the for-profit sector, later discovering her true passion in nonprofit work. She candidly reveals the practical considerations many face: "I knew I wanted to go to graduate school right after undergrad, but I was hesitant because I didn't have any money… I needed to work, and I'm glad I did it that way."

Her decision to pursue a Master of Public Administration at the University of Michigan-Flint was guided by her desire to move into leadership roles within the nonprofit sector. Amy's experience is a testament to the idea that it's never too late to return to the classroom. She emphasizes flexibility—not just in the structure of graduate programs, but in balancing life's many demands. By starting with one evening class while raising four children and working full time, Amy illustrates how setting manageable goals and seeking support can make graduate school an attainable reality.

One of the episode's standout themes is the value of diverse perspectives. Amy describes the richness of conversations with peers from varied backgrounds: "We were all from different types of backgrounds… it really helped diversify my thinking." She also notes how her studies deepened her understanding of complex government programs, which now directly inform her role in public administration.

Amy's advice for prospective graduate students is both encouraging and practical: don't be afraid to work first, take your time, and don't hesitate to ask about program flexibility. "It's not a one size fit all… Ask the questions." Her experience shows how graduate education can be crafted around your life, not the other way around.

Whether you're contemplating a return to school, navigating the balance of work, family, and personal growth, or seeking fresh inspiration, don't miss this uplifting episode. Tune in to hear Amy's full story and gather practical insights that could help shape your own graduate journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And it truly is a journey every individual that goes through graduate school is thinking about. Graduate school, is getting ready to graduate from graduate school, is going through their own personal journey, and every one of those journeys is going to be a little bit unique. But there are things that you can do today that will help you to be able to help yourself to find success in this journey, and that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: I every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the experience that they went through going through their own graduate school journey. So today we have another great guest with us. Amy Hovey is with us, and Amy is the CEO and executive director of the Michigan State Housing Development Authority. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and have her share that with you. Amy, thanks so much for being here today.

Amy Hovey [00:01:25]: Yes, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]: Well, I'm really looking forward to talking with you today as well. And I know a while back you ended. You did your bachelor's degree at Alma College, and then you went off. You went off and you started working, started having a lot of different experiences that allowed for you to be able to build upon your undergraduate degree. But at some point, at some point in that work journey, you identified for yourself that you wanted to go further in your education. Can you take me back in time? Take me back to that point in time where you said to yourself, I've got to do this. What was it? And what made you decide that graduate school was the next step?

Amy Hovey [00:02:08]: Yeah, so I'm going to say I knew I wanted to go to graduate school right after I graduated from undergrad, but I was hesitant because I didn't have any money. Right. I had already accumulated debt from undergrad, felt like, you know what? I need to work, and I'm glad I did it that way. So I was working and went from for profit to the nonprofit world, which, quite honestly, I just didn't know, as I think most undergrads don't really know the different types of careers that are out there until you get out into the world. And so I found myself loving working for nonprofits. And at that point I realized if I wanted to continue to not just work for nonprofits, but lead nonprofits, I should look at continuing my education. And I actually got an email from U of M Flint that said, come and to our open house for graduate programs. And I thought, huh, Now I never went to that open house, but I still clicked on the links and I looked at the type of programs that were available because I was working in the city of Flint, right in downtown, looked at U of M's campus all the time.

Amy Hovey [00:03:22]: You know, had had used the library before for events. And so I was familiar and comfortable there. And I noticed they had a Master's of Public administration where you could do an emphasis in nonprofit management. And so I set up a meeting and went and talked to an advisor and said, listen, you know, I'm interested in this program. I can't go full time. I had four children and I was working full time and needed to continue to work full time, but I really wanted to do this degree. And they said that was okay. I didn't have to graduate in two years.

Amy Hovey [00:03:58]: Even though the typical program outline was to get your master's in two years, I could actually take longer than that. And so I said, why not? Let's give it a try. And I applied and started that December.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: Now, as I mentioned, you had been out of school for a little bit of time. So as you transition back into school, it is a transition. There are definite things that you have to do to be able to get back into that school mode and get your mind back into that school mode in many different ways. Talk to me about the mindset shifts that you had to do to be able to set yourself up for success in that graduate school journey.

Amy Hovey [00:04:38]: Well, I was really excited. I'm like one of those people, I love school. So I was excited to get back into the classroom. And that was still when we purchased books and you had like a real actual book. And I was excited about getting my student ID with my picture on it. And. And so for me, it was an. It was an exciting time.

Amy Hovey [00:04:57]: I was a little hesitant on how I would balance and make time for my studies. So I started with just one class. So I signed up for a single class. It was in the evening and it was one night a week, right. So it was a long class. It was like a three hour block, I think, but it was just one night a week. And I thought, well, I can do one night a week. And I had to, I think, reprioritize how I spent my downtime.

Amy Hovey [00:05:20]: Right. And so instead of reading books for pleasure, you know, you start reading your homework. Right. Your textbook. You know, I traveled for work a lot during the time I was getting my degree, so I spent a lot of time on airplanes and I wrote my papers. Right. And so you just use the time that you have for school rather than for other things that might take up your time. And for me, it was not a hard shift, but it was something I was really dedicated to making happen.

Amy Hovey [00:05:53]: I also really appreciated being able to just take one class and the flexibility in that. It worked not only for my time schedule, but it worked for my budget to be able to really spread out the cost of grad school and the impact on my family's daily expenses. So. So that was really helpful for me as well. I also just. I love the diversity of the class, the different types of students that were in my classes. You know, I was a Master's of Public Administration, so we had folks that worked for the government, we had folks that work for nonprofits, people who were fresh out of college, those that, like me, were returning. We had people who are like retired police officers that were coming back to get their degrees.

Amy Hovey [00:06:44]: And so the conversations were very rich. It was just a great experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:50]: Now, you talked a little bit about that work life balance, and with kids and with a job and balancing all of that. Throughout the entire graduate program, there had to have been some things that you had to set into motion for yourself to be able to balance all of that for yourself and for your family. Talk to me about that. And what were some of those building blocks that you had to put in place to be able to help you to balance all of those different aspects that would allow for you to be able to get through the program to graduation?

Amy Hovey [00:07:21]: Yeah, I mean, I think primarily as a working mother, I had to make sure that I had childcare. And I'm very lucky. I married and my husband was able to be with the kids in the evenings. As I mentioned, I really took it slow so that I didn't feel like I was missing out on time with my children by doing just a single class a day. So I think that was really helpful, me in balancing being able to do all the things that were a priority for me and for my family. Again, I was lucky. Not everyone has childcare so readily available, but for me, that was like the number one priority was being able to make sure that my kids were cared for. And that allowed me to be Able to come and take classes.

Amy Hovey [00:08:04]: I think the other thing that really struck me was the fact that this was really adding to my work experience, right. And I found the professors at U of M Flint were very flexible. So the program allowed for me to take a couple classes from another school and bring those credits in. And at the time, all of the pro program was in person, right? Every class was in person. But because it allowed me to get approval to bring in a couple additional classes, I was able to look at other universities that had online classes, get preapproval to take those classes. And so I was able to take two classes online from another university and count them towards my graduating credits at U of M Flint. Super helpful to me during a period where my life got very busy and I could not afford that three hours solid an evening, once a week. So that flexibility was helpful to me in being able to balance.

Amy Hovey [00:09:10]: I also took an independent study. So one of the professors connected with me allowed me to take an independent study, which was really great. That was very flexible. It was really at my own pace and having meetings with my professor and. And that allowed me to then that semester do two classes. So, you know, I was able to double up, which allowed me to graduate just a little bit faster than taking one class per. So I found it was a wonderful program. And anytime I had an issue with anything being able to sit down and talk to folks, the professors were easy to work with.

Amy Hovey [00:09:47]: The administrators of the deans of the college. It's very easy to work with, to find solutions to make that balance work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:55]: Now you also, when you're going through graduate school, there are things that you learn inside the classroom, that hard knowledge that they want to make sure that you leave the classroom with. But there's a lot of things that you learn outside of the classroom as well, whether it be from other students, other individuals at the university itself, other contacts, etc. What was the most valuable thing you feel that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Amy Hovey [00:10:23]: Well, that's an interesting question. I mentioned that my classes were full with very diverse students, right. We were all different. We were all from different types of backgrounds. And so we were able to have conversations and relate our lives and our work experiences differently. And it really helped diversify my thinking. I will tell you that, you know, we tend to live in our own boxes and we're impacted by how our lives live and things that impact our lives. But able to listen and connect with people that are different, that have different experiences, help me look at things completely differently, whether it's how nonprofits are ran and the use of those nonprofits, how it is to balance our time and how other people balance our time, how we read and interpret readings completely differently, really helped me to be much more open minded, and it helped me be better at my current job and being able to do outreach and connect and understand folks within the Flint community as a whole, which was really important to the work I was doing at the time.

Amy Hovey [00:11:32]: I will also say, even though you didn't ask the question yet, Chris, that I learned a lot in the classroom that impacted my work life and how I looked at the things I worked with. So being from a nonprofit, I had worked with the government a lot. Not in government at the time, but outside government. And I was always very frustrated with the bureaucracy, all the regulations, how slow things go, and, you know, had very little patience for that. But in the classes I took through the Master's of Public Administration program, I learned why there are so many regulations around many of the government programs, how those evolved, the purpose of. Of those regulations. And it gave me a different mindset and some patience in dealing with the governmental entities and programs that I was working with at the time, which was super helpful. So I remember reading a book and going, oh, this is why they do what they do.

Amy Hovey [00:12:34]: They're not just trying to be painful and make it difficult to use these programs. There's actually 30, 40, 50 years of influence on these programs is how they got where they are today. And I actually wrote a paper on the Community Development Block Grant program when I was in grad school, and it was an analysis of the history of the program and how I might make that program better, really forcing me to think analytically. And now I find myself working and leading the state agency that administers those same, same CDBG programs from a state level. So, I mean, you really can't get more connected than that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:15]: I think that is great because, I mean, having those opportunities to be able to really connect the neurons. Right. And being able to see how one thing really equates to the next can lead you in so many different directions. Now, as you think about, think back to the experience that you had in graduate school and you think to what you're doing today. Talk to me about how you feel that your graduate school experience impacted what you're doing today and how you pull from that experience on a daily basis.

Amy Hovey [00:13:50]: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I don't think I would be in my position today without having that degree on my resume. It is meaningful that being in public Administration was important to me enough that I took the time to get a degree and some additional learning in that area. And I think that showed, you know, the folks that hired me that this line of work is important and that I took the time to learn. I did not know when I took this program that I would be leaving the nonprofit world and moving into government. So I was very fortunate to me that this master's program really covered both nonprofit and government work and public authority work. So it really got me to where I am today. That being said, it also, in my current role, really taught me a lot about the history of these programs, what they mean, how as a public official, I have responsibilities to the public and to listening to the public, as well as taking utmost care of taxpayer dollars, which a lot of these books talk about the history of programs, how they're appropriated and why they're appropriated. And so it really gave me a sense of importance of what the role the government should be playing and the intended uses of the programs that I administer today.

Amy Hovey [00:15:16]: So it couldn't be any more closely related to my learning in grad school, to my job today than it is. Right. There's direction. Connect there. And I'm really, really appreciative for the learning I did at U of M. Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]: As you think about your graduate school experience, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Amy Hovey [00:15:37]: I think it's important to work first. And I know I said the only reason I worked first was because I didn't have funding to do it, which is the truth. But lucky for me, it's really important, in my opinion, to have some work experience, because how I approach grad school was totally, totally different than I approached undergrad. Right. Like, this was important learning for me. I was much more engaged in learning in grad school than I was in undergrad, even though I graduated with honors from both. So it wasn't about getting the good grades, but it was really about being able to do a deeper level of analytical thinking and understanding the application of what you're learning to, to what you do day to day in your career. I don't think I made that connection on undergrad, but I certainly did in grad school.

Amy Hovey [00:16:30]: So one of the things that I wish I would have known and been less worried about was it's great to work a little bit before you go to grad school. It also helped me refine the type of program I wanted. Had I went right after, I probably would have went into an MBA program, which would have been fine. I'm sure I would have had a great learning experience experience in an MBA program, but it wouldn't have been aligned to where my passion was because I didn't know what my passion was going to be when I was 21 and first graduated from undergraduate school. So I think it's important. And something I learned was, it's not bad. It's actually great to get a little work experience under your belt before you return to grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: Finally, as you look back on your own graduate school experience and you think about others, others that are thinking about graduate school. And you've given some tips already. But what are, what are some additional tips that you might want to offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Amy Hovey [00:17:27]: Yeah, I mean, I think just do it. Just do it. If you have a passion for learning, there are so many ways in which you can approach graduate school. It's not a one size fit all. If you're worried about being able to fit it within your schedule or within your financial budget, sit down with the university, go through what those options may look like and go on a plan that does work for you. U of M Flint was so flexible when I was there that if I had to take a semester off because I had something going on with work or with my family, I could take a semester off and not be thrown out of the program. Right. There was extra time built in to allow for me to do what I needed to do to graduate.

Amy Hovey [00:18:10]: And I don't know that everyone knows that. I think folks think that it's pretty rigid and it's unattainable, but I think it really is attainable for almost everyone who's interested in doing it and being able to fit it in to their budget as well as into their work schedule and really working with. Can I get credits for work? I do? Can I, can I bring in some credits from a different program? I mean, if you don't ask the questions, you won't get the good answers. So ask the questions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:42]: Well, Amy, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey today, for sharing the experiences that you had as you were working and going to school and how that impacted what you're doing today. I truly appreciate your time and for what you shared and I wish you all the best.

Amy Hovey [00:19:02]: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options. The University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more than information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:32]: I look forward to speaking with you.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:33]: Again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

The path to and through graduate school is rarely a straight line, and in a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Hilary Murmers, LGBTQIA Coordinator at the University of Michigan, Flint, shares her remarkable journey—a testament to resilience, clarity of purpose, and the power of community.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the episode begins by exploring Hilary's academic background. After graduating from the University of Rochester with a Bachelor of Arts in English and Women's Studies, Hilary faced early rejection in her first attempt to enter PhD programs in gender studies. Instead of feeling defeated, she embraced diverse work experiences, which led her to a pivotal summer at Girls Leadership, a camp focused on the social-emotional development of girls and gender-diverse youth.

It was there, surrounded by important questions about identity and sexuality and feeling both unprepared and excited, that Hilary found her next calling: becoming a sex educator. "I started doing research in how does someone become a sex educator?... That led me to finding the graduate program I ended up in at Widener University." Widener's unique master's program in human sexuality matched both her interests and her need for a queer-affirming, inclusive environment—a critical consideration she encourages other queer students to weigh when choosing programs.

Hilary's graduate school experience included enormous challenges. Just as she was finding her stride, she was diagnosed with a rare cancer, forcing her to take medical leave and pause her studies. Even after recovery, she faced additional bumps: shifting program structures, a new student cohort, and the abrupt move to virtual instruction during the COVID-19 pandemic. "It felt uncomfortable, it felt bumpy... there were a lot of bumps and transitions that made it uncomfortable, and a lot of decision points of 'do I keep going?'"

Through it all, Hilary credits her faculty advisor and perseverance for helping her navigate the many pivots. She also highlights the importance of clarity—knowing her "why" helped her persist: "As we face those bumps, we have to have some motivation to keep going... Graduate school can be fun, but it can also be really hard."

This episode is a must-listen for anyone considering grad school, especially those facing uncertainty or adversity. Hilary's story reminds us that while the journey may be unpredictable, support, adaptability, and a clear sense of purpose can see you through to your goals.

Tune in to the full episode to hear more about Hilary's inspiring path—and let it fuel your own journey through graduate school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Hilary Murmers [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week, as we always are, talking about your journey, your journey toward graduate school, through graduate school, beyond graduate school. Because it is so important to be able to look at all aspects of ways in which you can be successful. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to identify ways in which you can find success sooner. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to understand the journey that they went on, to help you better have some tools for your toolbox to understand what they went through, because what they went through might provide you with some understanding of things that you could go through, but also some things that you can prepare for as you're thinking about the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: So I'm really excited to be able to have our guest today. Hilary Murmurs is with us today, and Hilary is the LGBTQIA coordinator at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she has her own journey, and she's had her own journey, and I'm really excited to be able to talk with her about her journey, to have her share that with you. Hillary, thanks so much for being here today.

Hilary Murmers [00:01:35]: Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: Now, I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Rochester, where you were working on that Bachelor of Arts in English and Women's Studies, and then you went off, you went off, you had got some experiences, and at some point you decided to continue on, continue on to get that master's degree. Can you take me back in time to that point in your life and what was going through your head as you made that choice that you were going to go to graduate school, and why was it the right time?

Hilary Murmers [00:02:06]: Yeah, that's a great question. I tried to go to graduate school before. I ultimately did when I was graduating with my bachelor's in English and Gender Studies. I had applied to some PhD programs in gender studies and didn't get into a single one, which is interesting now. Like, I do the work I'm doing in higher ed, but it was kind of failed first attempt. And so I took a few years and worked and had a lot of different experiences. And then I had one summer where I worked at a summer camp called Girls Leadership. That's all about social emotional development and girls and gender diverse young people and being openly queer.

Hilary Murmers [00:02:47]: In that space, I was receiving a lot of questions about identities and sexuality, safer sex that I frankly felt totally unprepared to answer. But I was really excited by. I was really like, this is cool and interesting to me. And so I started doing research in how does someone become a sex educator? And what do careers in sex and sexuality education look like? And that led me to finding the graduate program I ended up in at Widener University. It's a really unique master's degree in human sexuality. It's one of the only, like, specifically human sexuality degrees in the country. And at the time, I also had a full time job that had some tuition benefits that I could take to another institution. I was working at my alma mater at University of Rochester.

Hilary Murmers [00:03:40]: And so I was like, let's go. I'm going to apply to graduate school and become a sex educator. So, yeah, I applied in spring of 2016 and started in fall of 2016. So three years after I graduated with my bachelor's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]: Talk to me a little bit about what you were just talking about, because you were talking about that there definitely were some things that you had to consider being queer and thinking about graduate school where you fit and what was the right fit in that regard. I know you ended up at Widener, but talk to me about as someone entering into a graduate space like that and being queer, as you mentioned, what were some of the things that you had to truly consider for yourself in regards to safety, in regards to other aspects that you were looking for in a graduate program that might help others that might be queer as well, that they might need to think about in their own journey.

Hilary Murmers [00:04:33]: I think there's ways in which the institution that I went to was not the biggest question for me. Widener itself, like, is not an institution that I have a lot of attachment to, but for me, it was really dialing down into finding the program that felt like I would be getting the education that I needed and that it was a space where there were lots of queer and trans people, where there were conversations about queer and trans identities, like, baked into the program. It was a place where, like, when I looked at the materials online, frankly, I saw people who looked like me and I felt like it was a place where I could fit in. Part of my application experience was also doing a interview. So I got to go to campus and meet some current students and meet faculty members and just felt a really strong connection of this. Feels Like a place where I can be safe. I think it's also really important to name that I am white, I am cisgender. I have these other privileged identities that make safety less of an issue for me than for others in the queer community.

Hilary Murmers [00:05:47]: But yeah, for me it was really about dialing into like this is exactly the thing I want to study and these are the people I want to study it with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:56]: You know, every student as they go into graduate school, go through some transitions, academic transitions, psychological transitions, social transitions. And as you transition in, you go through some transitions. But then as you're going through those transitions as well as you learn more and as you connect or disconnect, talk to me about those transitions for you. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and also what did you have to do as you went through graduate school to set yourself up for success and maintain that success throughout the graduate school program?

Hilary Murmers [00:06:32]: Yeah, so I had a bumpy ride through graduate school due to life circumstances. So when I started my program in fall of 2016, I had a full time job in Rochester, New York. And the way the program was structured is that you would spend one weekend a month in person. Widener is outside of Philly. So I was working full time during the week and then one weekend a month going down to Philly for a full weekend of classes and then doing homework in the evening or trying to get up at like 5:30 in the morning to figure out, be able to do my classwork. But my first year was maybe the easiest because of the things that came after. So I had a really rare and unexpected cancer diagnosis after completing my first year in graduate school. So in the summer of 2017, I was diagnosed with a rare cancer called osteosarcoma.

Hilary Murmers [00:07:33]: And I had no choice but to put everything on pause. I took a medical leave from my graduate program. I stopped working and only focused on my cancer treatment for a full calendar year. And I'm very happy and lucky to be in good health now so many years later. And then I took also a full year to recover from that experience, physically, emotionally. I bopped around and slept on my friends couches all over the country. I lived with my brother and took care of my baby niece for a few months of that. But yeah, I really kind of had to take back control.

Hilary Murmers [00:08:12]: What I think when someone has a really severe medical experience, you lose a lot of control. So I spent my gap year, I called it, just being in control of my decisions. So finally in fall of 2019, I felt ready to go back to school to restart my program. But as happens, the program had really done some big shifts internally while I was away. So obviously there was a whole new cohort of students that I was working with who became my peers. But also the course requirements were different and some of the courses I had already taken were no longer offered. Just like that adjustment that happens right now. I work in higher ed.

Hilary Murmers [00:08:56]: I see it happening all the time of programs shifting. So I ended up having to work really closely with my faculty advisor to figure out how to apply the courses I had and stay on the new track that they had developed in order to get back on track, basically and try to complete my master's degree. So it took me, in the end, three years of coursework and five years total to complete my master's degree in human sexuality. Also within that time was the COVID lockdowns. So the program shifted from everyone traveling, many people from like all over the Eastern seaboard for a weekend of in person class in Philadelphia, which was really how the program was conceptualized, was that like people spend their weekend in these intensive courses to all of a sudden we're virtual and trying to do a. You know, I think our Saturday schedule was usually 9 to 6, and then Sunday was 10 to 4. Trying to translate that into the virtual format was really challenging, I think, for faculty and students going through it. So, yeah, when I started back in 2019, it felt uncomfortable, it felt bumpy, it felt like, oof.

Hilary Murmers [00:10:12]: Because it didn't feel easy to come back in. I had wanted it to feel like smooth and easy. And I encountered all these just logistical challenges of figuring out my course planning and then going fully remote was not the experience I think anyone wanted at that time. So, yeah, I ended up finishing in spring of 2021, fully remotely. Some of the students who had become my new peer cohort and I did a sisterhood of the traveling cap and gown and we like mailed one cap and gown all over to each other and took graduation photos. So, yeah, it was wild. There were a lot of bumps and like you said, Chris, transitions that made it uncomfortable and that there's a of decision points of like, do I keep going?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:56]: That can definitely be challenging. And I. I've said before, and I'll say it again, not every graduate school experience is going to go smoothly. There may be bumps in the road, there may be pivots that you have to make, just like you heard Hillary say. And what I am hearing Hillary say though, is that don't let those bumps stop you from achieving the goals that you've achieved for yourself, that you might have to pivot, you might have to do things in a little bit different way, but continue to push forward, continue to work toward the goal and work with your advisors, work with the faculty and identify other ways to do it, because there may be other ways that you can do it in the end.

Hilary Murmers [00:11:38]: Yeah, absolutely. My faculty advisor was a fabulous support to get me through those bumpy transitions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:44]: As I know that initially you said that you had looked at a PhD program, and then you ended up in a master's program. If you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same. The same program or path and why? Why or why not?

Hilary Murmers [00:11:55]: That's a great question. You know, the PhD programs I was initially interested were like PhDs in gender studies, with the goal of becoming a faculty member, which now, knowing what I know about higher education, and also having friends who did go through a PhD and really, frankly struggled to find work at all or find work that sustains them, I feel really grateful that my PhD in the humanities didn't work out. It works for some people. And those tenured faculty positions for humanities PhDs are very, very few in number. So for me, my master's in human sexuality has served me really well. I'm able to do this work that is really meaningful to me. And I'm working in the field of higher education in a very different way than when I was 21 and graduating from college. I.

Hilary Murmers [00:12:52]: I would be. But I love it. And so, yeah, I would do the same thing. I would love to ease over some of those bumps, but we don't get that choice. I would do the same thing. I'm grateful that I didn't get in during my first graduate application attempt and that life took me another way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:08]: So with all of the ups and downs and the kind of pivots that you had to go through, you definitely had to do a lot of balancing, especially as you were going into the medical diagnosis and starting and then having to take that break. And a lot of students do have to figure out what that balance is, the balance between school, work, family, personal responsibilities, whatever it might be. So talk to me about balance and what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance as you were going through that graduate program.

Hilary Murmers [00:13:39]: Yeah, you know, I think that during my first year of grad school, when I was working full time and going to graduate school part time, that was really challenging to find the balance of just. There are only so many hours in the day, and I have to Spend a good chunk of those hours asleep. So that was a really hard year to figure out. Like, when in the world do you do all this coursework? And sometimes it was like during my lunch hour at work that would like, you know, quietly bleed over into the hour past my lunch hour if I could swing it. And, you know, I'm not a person. I still don't have kids. I didn't have kids. I didn't have major caregiving responsibilities.

Hilary Murmers [00:14:22]: So, yeah, for me, the balance was always like, internal of, like, how do I manage being a worker and a student? And then when I returned to graduate school, I was also working with some new disabilities from my cancer experience. I had a. I have a mobility disability now. I am hard of hearing now. And so also finding. And just my capacity was a lot lower than it was before I had a cancer experience. So when I returned to graduate school, I wasn't working. I was just in graduate school and I had home responsibilities.

Hilary Murmers [00:15:01]: But the balance at that point became like, how do I manage taking care of myself and doing school?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think every one of us as we go through our graduate school experience, we have to find what that is for ourselves. And I guess with the experience that you had in looking at your own graduate school experience, and it was a. It was different than other students have had, but it could be similar in many ways for some as well. As you think about the experience that you had and how it changed you and who you are today, how do you feel that your graduate school experience changed the way that you think work or approach problems?

Hilary Murmers [00:15:50]: I think that I gained a lot more compassion for bumps in the road for myself and for everyone. I had been a totally traditional college student. I was not a person who really struggled in school. And so, yeah, having this big interruption really helped me see and experience the path winds and we don't know what's coming around the corner. And I think I bring that to every part of my work and life now. Like, I do a lot of, like, one on one work with LGBTQ students at U of M Flint who are navigating all kinds of life challenges. And there's a way in which part of what we have to do is, like, just keep going through it. Even if we can't see what's around that corner.

Hilary Murmers [00:16:39]: We have to keep taking the next step to find out and to be able to navigate as we reach those turns. So, yeah, just a lot more compassion for, like, sometimes hits the fan and then you have to clean it all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:51]: Up as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school and you think back to your own graduate school experience and what you went through. And talking to those individuals that are thinking about graduate school, what are some pieces of advice that you would offer them that would help them to find success sooner?

Hilary Murmers [00:17:11]: I would encourage folks to get really clear on your goals for graduate school. What are you hoping to achieve? For me going in, I wanted to become a sex educator. The other side of it. I'm working in higher ed in an adjacent way to the field of sex education. But my goal of getting to have conversations with young people about identities and sexuality and gender is present through it all. And as we face those bumps, we have to have some motivation to keep going. Some driving force of this is why this matters. Graduate school can be fun, but it can also be really hard.

Hilary Murmers [00:17:51]: And so having a lot of clarity internally about this is why this goal matters to me. And this is why I'm continuing to persist as much as I can. Yeah, really helps me feel connected to my goals in graduate school. Also, faculty and staff on campuses are here to help you. That is the only reason they receive a salary is to help you. So use those folks. Get to know your faculty members, find supportive staff on campus, find spaces to plug into on campus, because you just never know what will come around the corner. And then that staff or faculty member who you connected to can be a really important resource.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:29]: Well, Hilary, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for your willingness to share your own journey today, for sharing the ups, the downs, the in betweens that you went through yourself. I truly want to say thank you for sharing that and I wish you all the best.

Hilary Murmers [00:18:45]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is often described as a journey—one filled with peaks of accomplishment and valleys of self-doubt. This week's "Victors in Grad School" episode with Dr. Lucia Juarez is a must-listen for anyone navigating the challenges of advanced study, or even just considering taking the leap into grad school.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation delves deep into the realities of pursuing a graduate degree across different countries and cultures, and the unique obstacles that arise, especially when juggling family, working in a second language, and adjusting to new academic systems. Dr. Juarez shares her own candid story, from earning scholarships and moving continents to facing the all-too-common "imposter syndrome" and the myth that working harder is always the answer.

One of the most powerful takeaways from Dr. Juarez is that success in graduate school is not solely about relentless effort. Instead, it's about working smarter—not harder—by building holistic routines that protect your wellbeing, energy, and focus. Dr. Juarez's personal wake-up call came when her all-in approach to her PhD left her physically and mentally exhausted. Recognizing the unsustainable pace, she began to reimagine her process, experimenting with practical strategies like the Pomodoro technique for focused productivity, intentional breaks, and prioritizing self-care.

These experiences led her to develop the SmartPhD System, a framework that supports students on key dimensions: self-care, mindset, attainable goals, reflection, time management, planning, and positive habits. Whether you're struggling with motivation, managing multiple responsibilities, or hitting a productivity wall, Dr. Juarez's system offers a toolkit for making consistent, meaningful progress.

The episode also touches on an often-overlooked aspect of the PhD journey—reconnecting with your original passion. Keeping sight of your purpose can help reignite motivation during tough times. Dr. Juarez encourages listeners to regularly reflect on their "why" and embrace the fullness of their journey, setbacks and all.

If you're on the verge of giving up or simply searching for ways to be more effective and balanced, this conversation is for you. Dr. Juarez's insights and empathy remind us that you're not alone and that small shifts can lead to significant change—not just in grad school, but throughout your career.

Tune in to this episode for practical advice, reassurance, and the inspiration to build your own sustainable system for success in graduate school and beyond!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it is a journey. No matter if you are just starting to think about graduate school, maybe you've applied and gotten accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: No matter where you are, there are things that you can do at every step of the journey that can help you to be successful in that overall journey. That's why this podcast exists. It is here to help you to be able to identify maybe some stumbling blocks, maybe some things along the way that you can do, to be able to help yourself to prepare yourself well, or find things that you can do, some tools for your toolbox that will help you to be able to have that smooth sailing as you go through graduate school. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you to see things a little bit differently and also think about things in a little bit of a different way. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Lucia Juarez is with us today and Lucia has a very interesting journey and we're going to be talking about her own educational journey, but also a program that she started called SmartPhD that is helping individuals that are going for that PhD to do things smarter and to really think about what they're doing to be able to have that positive, successful experience through the PhD. I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Lucia, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:01:44]: Hi, Chris, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here because I think one of the things I would love to share with you today is how when I was doing my own PhD, I thought the only way to progress was by working harder and harder. And that really affected me. It almost broke me. So one of the things that I really want to share today is how I managed to find my way around creating a system. As you said, that work helping me and is helping others to finish the dissertation faster without compromising their well being, which is so important. It's becoming more and more important to protect that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, before we jump into the SmartPhD program, because I really want to delve into that, I want to learn a little bit about your own journey because I know you did Your undergraduate work in Argentina, because you are from Argentina. That's not where you live now. We'll have some spoilers here in just a little bit of where she lives now, but you started in Argentina, and at some point in that journey, I know that you had an opportunity or you started to think about the next steps. So you were getting that bachelor's degree, and at some point you said, I want to keep going. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that going to graduate school was the next step?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:02:56]: Thanks, Chris. I think, to be honest, I was always curious about teaching and researching, even before finishing my undergraduate studies. So I started doing, like, advanced courses. I was very interested in heritage conservation, and I got a scholarship as soon as I finished. So I finished in December, in January, applied for a scholarship, and in April, I was traveling to Spain to do my master's degree, and I really, really loved it. And I lived in Spain. I never actually came back home after that. So it's been more than 20 years of that.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:03:31]: And years after that, I got a scholarship to do my PhD. Related with heritage conservation as well was more like industrial heritage. I wanted to work something related with Scottish architecture and the connection with Argentina. So Scott, seems like the right place. And I got the scholarship to do it here in Edinburgh University, and I've been here since then. I have two Scottish boys. So staying here? No, I don't know for how long, but I stay here for now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:00]: So talk to me a little bit about that transition, because every person goes through transitions, and now you went through some big transitions, going from one country to another country to a further country, going from different language models to different ways of teaching. What did you have to do as you were transitioning from your undergrad to your master's, from your master's to working, from working back into your PhD. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to remain successful through that entire educational journey?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:04:34]: I think it's successful. Sometimes it feels like a big word, Chris. I know because I've been listening some of your previous podcasts as well. There are many people in the academic world that suffer from imposter syndrome. Or we have this thing about not feeling good enough, academic enough. For me, my English was never enough. Actually, I was doubting. I am good enough in my English to be in podcast like this one, you know, because you feel like maybe because of my accent, will people really understand when I'm talking? Like, we have so many doubts.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:05:06]: And I was listening to some of your previous guests, I think it was Dr. Julie Snyder. She was saying something about transitions as you were saying. And she was saying like it wasn't a smart decision to stay in the campus. She was from the master to the PhD to make things easier. I think we want to look at things to make things easier for us. That's the smart way to do. But not always you have the option if you have a scholarship, you take it or you don't take it.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:05:37]: And, and for me, as you said before in another country, in another language, another way of doing without family support, without friends, I was like, at least I came here with my husband and that was nice company to have. And you don't feel that you need to start everything from scratch. But it was a big challenge. So when you were saying about being successful, I think sometimes it's not so linear. So there is a lot of ups and downs. And I think what we tried to do is these downs not to be going so deep. What happened to me, I think I was so deep that I needed to make a change. So when I was there at the beginning, I thought that working harder was the only option.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:06:25]: It was because to that challenges that I was saying about being in another country, writing your dissertation in another language, trying to adapt. I also had my first baby in the middle of the way. So it was super challenging. And I don't think I can talk about being successful until now. I can see in perspective because to be honest, I wasn't feeling that way at all. I was self doubting myself. I have this feeling that I wasn't good enough for my dissertation and I wasn't good enough to be a mom. It was really, really tough.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:07:03]: So I thought the only way to be success stressful was by working harder. And the problem was I was taking. So my days weren't really productive. So I started taking hours from the night and I wasn't resting at the beginning I thought, well, it is what it is, I need to do it. There is, there is no other way. But I ended up with there was a point I couldn't move forward. I had a sciatica problem, I couldn't move meaning I couldn't do much work on my dissertation. And also this is heartbroken.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:07:36]: I couldn't play with my baby. And that thing that you want you to do, that is progress in your dissertation, you need to stop everything because you cannot progress at all. I was having migraines. I developed tendinitis in my hand for working with a mouse for such a Long hours. So I went to see the gp, the doctor here, and he said, you need to stop, you need to go, you need to. He wrote me a letter to take it to the university, to the disability department so they can adapt my desk. He said, you need to do Pilates classes two times a week. And when I was listening to all this, Chris, I thought, this one is crazy.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:08:16]: He has no idea what doing a PhD is about. You know, like, I'm trying to use every minute I have so I can be with my son and working, like, who has time to go to the gym, you know? But at the same time, I thought, well, I cannot keep going in the same way. And that was a red flag I couldn't ignore. So I needed to stop and reflect a little bit about what, what I needed to do differently. Definitely. I started doing these Pilates classes. I changed my desk, I adapted more. I was trying to sleep more.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:08:51]: Headaches I alleviated a bit. But I was. I think it was something that came with me all the way until the end of my dissertation, until I finished. But there was something that I started to feel better. But they're still not making the progress I hoped I would have with putting some things in place. And I was having a conversation with my husband about what he can do or what help I will need to make more progress. And I would like to highlight this, something that some of your guests talk about earlier as well, or some of your episodes about having this support system, family, friends, mentors, coaches. So it's so important that we can ask for help as well.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:09:39]: But I said, you know, what I need is time. I need time to work on my dissertation. Because we were here with no family support, we need to pay for private nursery, and that's very expensive in the uk, so we never could actually afford more than three days. I also have a conversation with my supervisor about if I could change like a part time because I was a full time PhD student. And he said, you cannot change after halfway. You need to finish now as a full time student. So I needed to do the work of a full time, five days in three days, because that's what I could pay. And my husband said, well, we cannot pay more, but I can.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:10:20]: Instead of you dropping our son to nursery and I picking him up, I'll do both, so you have a little bit more of time. I said, well, that would give me one, two hours more per day. I can do something with that. And I remember going to the office, so excited about, this is the day I'm Going to make massive progress. I was there and around. Like I arrived early, around 8, I was already sitting on my desk. And around 7, Chris, not 7, around 3pm, I realized I had like 20 tabs open. I was reading something, but I realized I was looking at the screen, I was reading something, but I was like, I wasn't really understanding when I was reading.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:11:05]: I was like, where am I? What am I reading about? Why I'm reading this? What was this 20 tabs that I have open and why I'm here. It's been like seven hours here, not making progress. And I started feeling so guilty as well. I'm not with my son because I supposed to be here working and working, working, but I'm not progressing. I started crying. It was horrible. Like I felt so bad about myself. My PhD, me as a mum again, another red flag I couldn't ignore.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:11:41]: This wasn't sustainable anymore. But the thing is, it was clear that it wasn't just about having more time. I needed something different. So I thought it was time. But it wasn't just time. I need a strategy. I needed to know what I was doing. I didn't need 20 tabs open on my laptop.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:12:00]: So I was having a conversation with a friend who also have twins at the same time I have my sunbed and she said, I'm using Pomodoro technique. Have you ever tried? I said, no. What's that about? She said, well, you focus for 25 minutes, then you have a break of five minutes and then you go back to the task. And I thought, oh, this will help with the. This not like reading without really knowing what I'm reading about. Like I can't focus for 20, 25 minutes. So I was stopping and reflecting off what I can do different, what can be differently for me so I can make more progress. That it wasn't necessarily having more time because when you have a scholarship, although it's wonderful.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:12:39]: And I was feeling lucky as we, as we usually feel when we have this, it's not. But if I didn't finish on time, I needed to return the money. So there was a lot of press pressure. And because I only could work three times a week, I really need to put a strategy in place. One of the main things that I needed to think about was this. Chris, I know that you mentioned your daughter. Sometimes, like sometimes we worry we are maybe trying to work and thinking how our kids are doing. I wasn't really present and I needed to do something about that because I thought there is no point of me Being at work, thinking about my son and being with my son, feeling guilty because I wasn't doing PhD work.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:13:23]: So I try meditation and that really helped to be more present. So I just started having this strategy. I will go, my husband will take care of dropping, picking up. I will go to the office early, I'll do like a 10 minutes meditation only I will walk on my way. So I'll do some exercise that the doctor asked me to do and I was feeling better about that. So I will cycle or I will walk, I will arrive early, I'll do some meditation and I'll start doing the pomodoro technique. And the good thing about that is that I started making progress. And when you start making progress, you get some momentum as well.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:14:01]: And I brought like more energy. And I started thinking like, what were the other things that weren't working? And I started working in my distractions, what I can do with my phone. Then I realized, well, this thing alarms sounded like 25 minutes. Sometimes it's disturbing. What about. I think I can concentrate for 40 minutes instead of the. So I was listening to me, what was working, what wasn't working, paying more attention. So I started to be much more productive in the same time that before I wasn't really producing.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:14:31]: So doing these things, I got to the end. But Chris, I always remember this, holding the whole thing because at that time was in person, I needed to print it, I give it in the office. I think everyone is doing it online now. But I remember like, oh my gosh, I could have done this in less time, with less waste of energy, fewer tears. And I think that's what I want to do now, you know, now if, if I have to go. But of course it's late for me now. I think I wasted energy, I compromised my well being. I didn't go into details.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:15:11]: But sometimes that affect your relationships. You are moody, you're tired, you're frustrated because you're not making the progress that you are hoping. But it's not just about hope, isn't it? It's about like a strategy that will work for you. Because something that happened to me, I don't know if this will resonate with you because I know that you, you talk with a lot of people and sometimes people have like recipes or do this or that. As it was, for example, for the pomodoro technique, just you feel, oh, this is not for me or this won't work, this is too strict or this is too this or too that. And you feel, and I think many Times in the academic world, we normalizing that thing with the effort and do it more and more and more. We don't even think that there is an easier, better, more enjoyable way. It doesn't seem like it's something that you can actually have, but it is possible.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:16:02]: I know that everyone has their own journey and you listen to so many people in this podcast, but there's many.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]: Times where I remember that feeling of being a zombie in graduate school where you're losing sleep, you're trying to balance everything. I was lucky enough that in my doctorate I got my coursework before we had our first child, but I was in my dissertation phase while we had our young child. So you did have to try to carve out time to be able to have that focus time so that you didn't feel like you were taking away from your family in that way. And I know that feeling of being a zombie like you were talking about and where you were kind of clocked out per se and not being able to get things accomplished help you in developing that smart PhD system that I mentioned earlier. And I guess that sounds like from what you just said, that what you learned in this moment was really that turning point for yourself of how it changed your approach to academic life. But then I guess I look at it and think, as you look back at that now and you work with other students, what did that period of time do for you that now you try to use your system and you try to help others in learning so they don't repeat the same issue?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:17:14]: I think it wasn't so straight away. So what I was sharing my story is with the time because I was a tutor at Edinburgh University and I was doing some teaching and I started paying attention of sometimes my students. Well, they knew about the topic. Some just wasn't reflected in their grades. So I was paying attention of why or what was going on. And some of them were having some health issues. I have a student that was depressed, so the medication she was taking was making her like a bit dizzy. I have other students that were brilliant, but they didn't know how to express their idea in written.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:17:51]: So it wasn't about the norms, knowledge on the things. So I put some effort in looking for tools or things that will help them with clarity and things like that. So when I decided to become a coach because I realized I enjoy most helping students and helping them with the tools and that and when I started listening to so many PhD students is when I was thinking about my own experience as well. So it wasn't like I finished my own PhD thinking oh, I got this, this system created. It was after listening to so many students that I realized like wait a minute, I'm listening to students all over the world and somehow any challenges that they were having were similar to the ones I had. And somehow they will be related with self care mindset, including the imposter syndrome and attainable goals. Because sometimes we are over optimistic and we are not realistic about our realities. For example, in my case, only working three days, having a baby, not having family support maybe would be different for other students working five days with not the same family.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:18:57]: So trying to adapt these goals for every individual was another thing. So that will be the A for attainable goals. Also realize that many students, as I did before, I have this big problem. We don't stop to reflect. It seems like we are so busy that reflection seems like something we cannot afford when actually you don't need a lot, like five minutes. And I in my own experience, because I didn't have option as well. But I don't think the people I'm working with or other PhD students, they need to suffer as I did to realize, oh, I need reflection, you know, if they can reflect now, like what is working, what is not working, what I can do different, they can definitely make a change that transformation. Sometimes you don't need to go that low to make it better for you or more successful or make a transformation that will make a most successful journey anyway without the suffering that I had to go through.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:19:57]: So then we have the T from time management, which is very common around a PhD student. And as I said, it was an issue that I had. It was not just about time management, also task and energy management. And that was happening in that day that I had this crash because I had the time, but I wasn't managing it properly. Then you have this idea about the P from planning and priorities. Because for example, that day I could have been productive if I knew what was my priority that day Instead of the 20 tab, what if I had just one tab with the right thing that I needed to do? So it's so important that we have all these components and something that I see very often. Most of the PhD that come to me for help are usually in the last period of their dissertation because they are running out of time and they feel, oh, I was neglecting help before, now I don't have any other option. And the first thing that we need to see is what are the priorities, what is really important in the message that they want to Go to share from their dissertation.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:21:01]: I have. I don't know how was your experience Chris with your own dissertation but and mine at the end was. I was removing paragraph that took me months to create because it was easy to remove it than to try to fix it. And when they were gone I realized they weren't really important. So there's so much time that we put in there and we are putting part of our life in there as well. Maybe we don't need that, but we need to think is this really a priority? Is this really important? And also sometimes the priority it might be being with your son that week like it was for me last week. Like sometimes it's like we are a hole and sometimes we forget that. And then the other thing about that successful over time.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:21:46]: I think if we put these things that you create that system that works and you're doing consistently. So for example for me at that time doing the meditation, checking emails only at the afternoon, for example. I'll give you an example that I see this very often in terms of habits and routines. Sometimes I ask the students like when they feel more focused for writing. And the majority said first thing in the morning. And when I ask what do you usually do in the mornings? They say I'm taking emails. So they are not developing yet the self awareness of how they work best. And they are not putting in a system that work consistently.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:22:25]: So they need if they know that they work best writing in the morning. And they do this the habits and routine and always write in the morning, check emails in the afternoon or lunchtime, always go to bed at the same time you do this then to be honest, the body is asking you for that. It's asking you for the rest. It's asking you for the exercise, it's asking you for the time to write. It's asking you to enjoy time with friends and family so you will take most and your life is more enjoyable as well. It doesn't feel so hard either. And to be honest, the deep from drive of meditation motivation sometimes comes naturally. When you start seeing that you're more effective, more productive, that brings more energy.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:23:10]: And that's why I like the idea of the system also because it happened to me. For example, that day that I was describing you earlier, I was motivated. I thought this is the day I'm going to make progress. But so some people say well, I need motivation. I was motivated that day and I couldn't make any progress because I didn't have the plan, I didn't have that strategy. The priorities That a specific task with attainable goal, that this was part of the bigger planning that I needed to have done. So that's why I like talking about that system. Because you need all of these elements.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:23:44]: You need to be rested, to be focused, you need to believe that you can do the work. So you need that mindset. It works everything together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:52]: One of the things that you talk about when I was kind of looking at your system is you talk about reconnecting, reconnecting with the passion that led someone to start their PhD in the first place. Because everybody has that reason. Because not everybody wants to get a PhD. Not everybody wants to get a terminal degree and go through the process and going through that further education. What strategies do you use to help students rediscover that spark when they feel either stuck or burned out?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:24:22]: That's a very special question, Chris, because although everyone is different, I always try to let them think why they wanted to do the PhD in the first place. Because many kind of forget they are going in a loop about that frustration and they forget that big picture. Most of the people when I asked this, the majority said or reflect on that contribution to knowledge they wanted to do. So. What is interesting about that as well is like most of the time they cannot make this contribution to knowledge if they don't finish their dissertation. And that's why important that they work mainly in the priorities or at least trying to have a full draft before polishing and making it perfect. But the other thing is you say something about the sparkle. Like sometimes I like seeing the PhD like a long relationship with a partner.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:25:20]: So I always remember, I tell this story sometimes, Chris, that I was about to start my PhD. I was renting a room, My husband didn't move straight away. I was on my own for a couple of months before and Cloud May introduced me to a friend and he said, look, he's finishing his PhD. And I said, oh, I'm about to start. And he said, I can tell that you are about to start because your eyes are still shining. And I didn't get it until later on in my PhD journey. But something that I see now is like as in a long relationship, you know, maybe the sparkle and the brightness, it's not the same either. But it might be an opportunity to learn different things.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:26:03]: For example, if your relationship with your partner is different from the beginning, but maybe it's the maturity, is there another learning experience there? Are you learning a different way to deal with things in the relationship? Are you managing? Are you improving your other soft skills in the way. So I think we do that with a PhD. You don't necessarily need to have, have that sparkle, but you can keep the motivation as soon as you feel that you are fulfilling the purpose, that you are giving something. I think many students feel, Chris, that they are putting so much from their life, their energy. They invest in money and sometimes with their own body, as I did with I was suffering. What do they get in return? Sometimes the fetus is not. Not in a good balance. So I think it's very important that the students can see what the PhD means to them, how they will feel when they finished.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:27:03]: And also it's not necessarily about that dissertation, it's about them and what every person is bringing in their dissertation as a episode into the world of knowledge. And it's so beautiful to see that at the end of the day is a creative, a creative process, isn't it? Every thesis, every person is different. And it's nice to see that contribution. But again, they needed to have it done. So how to do it without compromising, that would be the key here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:33]: It's definitely the key because you, you have to figure that out as you go along so you don't lose that momentum. And you don't lose, because if you lose the momentum, the issue becomes, you get to a point, where are you ever going to finish? Because as you said, you can spend a day, a week, a month working one section of a dissertation. And we don't say that to scare you, it can get into that place. So having strategies and having things that can help you to be able to, to work smarter and not harder is so important. And you definitely want to think about that for yourself as you're going through this. So, Lucia, if a grad student is listening today and is on the verge of giving up, what's that very first step that you would encourage them to do to regain that momentum?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:28:20]: I think most of the time the most important thing is just stop for a second. You know, sometimes we need to slow down to speed up later in that reflection, maybe can be thinking about if it's the motivation, because sometimes there are different things that can be going on, but sometimes the motivation is coming from another place. So for example, sometimes you don't feel motivated because, for example, your supervisor said something and you feel that that puts you down. So if it's something related with mindset, you can always, always kind of reframe or challenge your own thoughts. Is this actually true? Focusing more on the things that you have done? I always remember Chris and I share this with the people I'm working with. One of the most frustrating things for me when I was doing my PhD was going to be feeling super tired and start going in the mentally the list of all the things that they were missing, the things that I didn't achieve and I used to go to bed like drain and. And I learn now instead of doing that going to be thinking all the things that I have done. So it's something that I definitely encourage students to do instead of focusing on the things that they don't have done.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:29:35]: Usually they always do more than they actually think or recognize. Sometimes it can be also sending a difficult email to the supervisor. There are things that they need that kind of acknowledgement, you know, and being brave to do it. Sometimes it's like hard work because for example for me I could have spent days in the library working on archives without funding anything. So there was a joy in doing it that I used. I loved exploring the thing so you can reflect on that as well. What I enjoy from this process, what is this is teaching me so that all goes around that mindset as well. Sometimes it's that simple thing like why I'm doing this, what would be my contribution, what was this means to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:24]: I love that because I think you definitely do have to have that wake up call every once in a while to be able to remember why you are doing what you're doing. And I really appreciate sharing this Pomodoro technique as well as your smart PhD system. I think that it can definitely help so many people and we'll definitely put a link in the notes today so people can learn more about this. I guess finally as I think about a PhD and finishing a PhD. Finishing a PhD isn't just about completing a dissertation. It's about building habits for life after grad school as you think back to the not only your own experience, but the things that led you to to creating the SmartPhD system for other students. How do those lessons from the SmartPhD carry forward into careers beyond academia?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:31:19]: Oh, that's a great question Chris. Because I did like a change in my career. Sometimes students like let's say PhD student who finished not working with me, but they finished and they're trying to find a job and they cannot find. Sometimes they call me to see if I can help them as a coach coach or just to share my experience or changing because I work for a university and I have my own business. So I like sometimes things in between. It shouldn't be necessarily one thing or the other as well, so I noticed that it's harder for me to help students in preparation for a job interview and other things that the students that they didn't go with me through the SmartPhD mainly because there were things that they were working with a smartPhD like for example building confidence, developing their self awareness. So it's so important that when you're working in your PhD and you pay attention of the things that as I was sharing before, for example what is working, what is not working, how I work best, at what time, how is my energy that it can be different from someone else. So knowing yourself can definitely make a big difference in first of all understanding what other opportunities can be be for you.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:32:29]: So being more open and be more flexible your skills are working with time management and planning can make you a great asset for any place, any job whether that's in academia or in the industry. Anyone wants to work with someone who has more positive attitudes towards work in general. Again whether that's in academia and anyone wants to work someone who is neglecting their self care because it has to be also that as the idea of the system that doesn't bring positive energy to the work that you do. And a positive energy if you ever pay attention when you are productive most of the time was the time that you were rested that you are happy with the work that you're doing that you feel motivated to do it because you feel that you can do it. So that's the mindset your attainable goals. Understanding with this act of actually attainable or not and having that that sense can also help you to present yourself better in like showing up as a professional in a different way that you will be like self doubting yourself all the time and not really knowing how do you work best. And if you pay attention to you, you will also pay more attention to others whether that's in a job interview or at work for the rest of the team. Collaboration is key in any area academia, industry and it's becoming more and more important.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:34:00]: The same with things like leadership that are so connected with self awareness that is related with that are of the reflection and mindset from the SmartPhD. So again I would say seeing you yourself as a whole and taking and try to make the best version you can today that will make you a great asset for any job that you can apply for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:24]: I really appreciate you sharing that. If people want to find out more about the SmartPhD about working with you, where should they go?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:34:30]: I think the easiest will be my website which is www Lucia Juarez and maybe I need to spell that. L U c I a j-u a r e sa.com Am I always happy to listen to stories if anyone wants to contact me on LinkedIn, for example chat experience or ask questions. I know this hard and I don't want anyone to feel alone. For many people it's a very very lonely journey. Maybe just seeing that you are not the only one and if someone on the other side just for anyone listening, just feel free to send me a message.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:10]: And as I mentioned earlier, I will put links in the notes today so you can find Lucia easily. So feel free to check that out and go learn more about this amazing system that can help you to be able to better manage your time and better be able to prepare yourself for that PhD that you may be considering for yourself. Lucia, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:35:35]: Thanks a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan, Florida as programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email [email protected].

Embarking on the journey of graduate school is both exciting and challenging, a truth eloquently explored in the recent episode of Victors in Grad School featuring Dr. Melissa Sreckovic, Associate Professor of Education and Director of the Honors Program at the University of Michigan-Flint. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation delves into the realities of graduate education, highlighting transformative experiences and sharing practical wisdom for current and prospective students.

A central theme of the discussion is the importance of mindset. Dr. Sreckovic reflects on her transitions—from classroom teacher to graduate student, then onto a doctoral program—emphasizing the need to adjust expectations and embrace continuous learning. She recounts how her drive to better support students with disabilities, particularly those with autism, sparked her ambition for advanced study. This personal motivation underlines the significant impact that meaningful experiences can have in shaping academic and career journeys.

The episode also addresses the challenge of imposter syndrome, a feeling all too familiar for many graduate students, especially those who are first-generation college attendees. Dr. Sreckovic shares candidly about moments of self-doubt and the steps she took to reaffirm her sense of belonging. Importantly, she advocates for building a "community of safe people"—mentors and peers who offer guidance, encouragement, and camaraderie. This theme of community recurs throughout the conversation, with both Dr. Sreckovic and Dr. Lewis stressing the value of collaboration and finding supportive networks within graduate programs.

Work-life balance and time management are further touchpoints, with Dr. Sreckovic offering practical strategies: block out dedicated study time, stay organized with to-do lists, and use even small windows of opportunity productively. She also highlights the necessity of self-care and seeking campus support services, such as counseling, to prevent burnout and maintain well-being.

The conversation rounds out with reflections on the broader skills gained in graduate school, including the power of networking and the importance of listening to diverse perspectives. Dr. Sreckovic encourages prospective students to research programs, get involved, seek funding opportunities, and, above all, to believe in their own place within the academic community.

If you're contemplating graduate school or are in the midst of your own journey, this episode offers reassurance, actionable advice, and inspiration. Listen in to gather tools for your own toolbox—and remember, you're never alone on this path to success.

Tune into Victors in Grad School to hear the full conversation and gain more insights on thriving in graduate education!

TRANSCRIPTS

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again. And as always, you and I are on a journey. We are on a journey. As you are preparing and thinking about graduate school, maybe you are just starting that process for yourself where you're trying to determine what you're going to do, what you want to do next to get to reach those goals that you have for yourself. Maybe you've already applied and you figured out the programs that you're applying to and you're waiting for that decision in the mail or in your email.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: Or maybe you're already in graduate school and you're working your way through the process. You see that light at the end of the tunnel and. And you are trying to figure out what it means to be a graduate student and how you can be best successful no matter where you are. This podcast was developed to help you to be able to find success sooner. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences, different perspectives that can talk to you about their own experiences in going through graduate school so you can gain some tools for your toolbox to help you along your own journey. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Melissa Sarkovic is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: And Melissa is an associate professor of education and the director of the Honors Program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to talk about her own experience and to share that with you. Melissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:01:44]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, I love being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University. You got that back. Bachelor of Arts in elementary education. And after graduation, you went out, you worked for a bit, you became a teacher. And at some point, at some point in those early years of teaching, you got a spark. There was something that made you start to think, maybe I want to go and get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: And why did you decide that graduate school was the. Why it was the right time for you to go to graduate school and why you ultimately decided to go to graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:02:30]: Well, after I graduated from Michigan State, I moved to Cary, North Carolina, where I began my teaching career as a third grade teacher. And right before school started the principal came to the third grade team and said, what teacher wants to be the inclusion teacher this year who wants to have the students with disabilities in their class? And I eagerly said, I do. And. And of course, that's not how things work anymore. This was a while ago. And so I had just the best experience my first year teaching students with and without disabilities in the classroom. I was able to collaborate with a special education teacher, and I realized that I still had a lot to learn about special education. And if I was going to be a really solid teacher and meet the multifaceted needs of these students in my class, that I needed more information.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:03:24]: I needed a different skill, skill set. And so that's what prompted me to get my master's and a focus in special education. And I went back to Michigan State for a couple reasons. It was comfortable. I already knew some of the professors there, and also because of the format, I was living in North Carolina. I wanted to stay in North Carolina, and I wanted to continue teaching. I didn't want to take a break from teaching. So I was looking for an online program that I could do mostly on the weekends so that I could really focus on my students in my classroom.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:03:55]: And Michigan State afforded me that opportunity. So that was why. That's why I decided to go back for my master's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:02]: Now, I know that you got that master's degree. You finished up, went back, worked with your students, engaged yourself within your. Your classroom and in your school. But then again, two years later, you had that inkling again, and you decided that you wanted to go further, and you ultimately decided to get a doctorate degree in special education in Autism Spectrum Disorder. And you. You decided to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. So talk to me about what made you decide that you wanted to take that next step and get the PhD versus just staying at the master's level.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:04:39]: So I taught a student with autism, and he just really changed the trajectory of me for my professional life. And I just understood him. We got each other. I was his safe person. When he moved on to fourth grade, into fifth grade, he would come back to my classroom if he was 15, feeling overwhelmed. And I realized that he was really misunderstood by other teachers in the school, by other students in the school, by parents. And he is such a great kid. He's brilliant.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:05:12]: He's so kind, so empathetic. And I thought, you know what? I can. I want to go back to school so that I can better prepare teachers to work with students like him so that they really understand the strengths and value that kiddos like him bring to the classroom. And really to help teachers foster a classroom community where everyone in their class belongs and understands their value. So that was really why I decided to go back to graduate school to get my PhD, because I really wanted to learn more about autism and how I could better support teachers in supporting their students on the spectrum. So, so when I was looking at doctoral programs, I was looking for a place that had researchers doing work on autism. So UNC Chapel Hill had some of the biggest autism researchers around the world. Dr.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:06:04]: Sam Odom, Dr. Gary Meziboff, Dr. Kara Hume, were doing some really phenomenal research at UNC Chapel Hill. So I decided to go for an informational session and learn a little bit more. I learned about an interdisciplinary grant that I could apply for that would fund all four years of my PhD program. And I would do research as part of that grant and I would also teach as part of that grant. And that was under Dr. Harriet Abel.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:06:32]: And I applied and was awarded the grant and thought, okay, well, all the stars are aligning. It looks like I'm getting my PhD. But really it was having that student in my class which really sparked my interest in thinking, you know, what, I can do more, I can make a bigger impact. And the avenue in which I do that is getting my PhD.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I know that whenever you start a new degree, there are transitions. And as you go into that degree itself, you're having to learn a lot about not only yourself, but about what the expectations are for your faculty, how you're going to have to learn in a different way, and you have to figure that out as you go along. As you think about your master's degree, your doctorate degree, and you think back to those experiences, what mindset shifts, what mindset shifts did you have to make to succeed in graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:07:24]: One of the bigger challenges for me going from the third grade classroom into a full time PhD program was the lack of reinforcement. So when you're teaching third grade, you have 258 year olds that are coming to you every morning and excited to see you and you are like reinforced all day long by their smiles and their laughing and their high fives and you know that you're doing something right. When you get to a PhD program, you don't have that instant reinforcement anymore. And in fact, you have a lot of feedback that's not always positive. It's not negative either. It's meant to help you grow. But it was a mindset shift. When you're getting papers back and there's A lot of work that you need to do on it.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:08:09]: So that was one of the biggest shifts for me in my master's program. I felt like there was still a lot more positive reinforcement. In the PhD program, there certainly was positive reinforcement, but it just wasn't nearly as common or as consistent as when you're teaching third grade. That was a very big shift for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: A lot of students that I talk to talk about the fact that as they're going through their graduate degrees, at times they feel like an imposter. They feel like they shouldn't be there. They feel like they are not worthy of the, of the opportunity to be in those programs. Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies? And how did you handle it?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:08:50]: Absolutely. And I would say that sometimes still in my professional journey, I face imposter syndrome. I mentioned that I'm a first gen grad student. So even navigating the college application as an undergrad student, but especially as a graduate student was challenging because as when I was applying for undergrad, at least I had my high school counselors to help. But then when you're applying to grad school and you're a first gen college student, you don't have anyone in your family that you can go to and say, hey, does this look right? Can you read over my essay for me? So that's challenging. But I remind myself that everyone wasn't accepted into this program. It wasn't an open door policy where everybody gets in. So I earned my spot there and I belong just as much as the next person.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:09:38]: And I think it's really important when you start your graduate journey that you find your community of people. That was just instrumental. And my success in my PhD program was finding my safe people that I could ask silly questions to. And we supported each other, we encouraged each other, we were there to help each other. And you know, that helps with imposter syndrome too. When you find your people and you know like, this is your place, this is where you belong. I think you just have to remind yourself that you got in just like everyone else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:10]: That's always an important thing to do. Whether it's on a daily basis, whether it's on a monthly basis, a semester basis, you are reinforcing that you are meant to be there. The program believed in you and now they're giving you an opportunity to not only believe in yourself, but really to step up to the plate, step up to the challenge. Because it will be challenging, but it is an opportunity that they are giving you because they feel that you are worthy of that opportunity. So always keep that in mind as you're going through not only the good times, but the challenging times, because there will be both as you go through graduate school in general. Now, Melissa, I know that there's a lot of things that are thrown at you as you go through graduate school. And many times people that are going through graduate school are wearing many hats. They're having to be a employee, they're having to be a friend, a family member, maybe a spouse or a parent.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:06]: And that takes a lot of balance. Talk to me about balance for yourself. How did you balance school, work, family, or other responsibilities while you were going through graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:11:16]: When I was in grad school, both for my Master's and my PhD, I did not have kids yet, so I was married and I have a very supportive husband. And so that is definitely key. And my husband shared in my goals. You know, he knew that I wanted to finish my doctoral program and he was very supportive of that, which was really huge. But I think you just have to make the time. I would block out time through the week where I would study, and so it was just set there on the calendar. This is really silly, but I am very efficient and I always have my backpack with me. So if I was heading home from Chapel Hill to my apartment and there was traffic, I would pull over into a parking lot and I would work until the traffic died down because I didn't want to waste an hour in traffic when I could have been reading an article.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:12:07]: So. So I just used my time as efficiently as I could and then I built in time. It may not be five hours that I could spend with my husband on a Saturday, but maybe it's two hours. And those two hours, I try to make it count as quality time where I put my work aside. And then I also tried to build in some fun. So I had a really great community when I was in graduate school and I brought my husband into that community and we would go out in Chapel Hill and go to dinner and things like that together. And so having a community, that kind of helps me push you through the program and contributes to both the work life balance. Because you're studying together, but you're also going out and exploring your new town together.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:12:48]: That was really helpful as well. And then the last thing I will say is you just have to be very organized. I'm very organized person and I love a to do list. So lots of to do lists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: Well, the to do lists are definitely one thing and as you said, you're very organized. Not every person is. And time management is definitely important. As you go through graduate school, talk to me about some of the time management management strategies or tools that were most helpful to you.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:13:14]: Well, I would set out specific times of the day where I could study, where I wasn't teaching, where I wasn't doing research, and when I didn't have class and they were blocked out in my calendar. Now this was a while ago, so I didn't have Google Calendar. I had like a physical calendar that I would block it out in. But that helped me with time management. And I would look at my syllabus and I would write everything down, all the big due dates down in my calendar, so I knew when they were coming up. I'm not a procrastinator, so I would slowly work on those bigger projects. I believe it or not, my undergrad students don't typically do this, but I went to office hours of my professors and I would ask questions and make sure that I understood the assignment so that what I was working on, I was. It wasn't wasted time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:01]: You definitely want to take advantage of all the time that you have now. Realize also, though, that it's not always going to be easy and there's going to be time where even when you're putting in the time and the effort that you burned yourself out. And that can feel frustrating. It can feel overwhelming. And I say that just because everyone should know that it is something that may impact you while you go through graduate school. Melissa, talk to me about burnout for yourself and what did you do to avoid burnout or to recover from it when you were feeling overwhelmed?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:14:34]: First, I would say that I definitely reinforced myself. So if I was working on a big project or if I was trying to get a paper submitted for publication, when I submitted it, I would have some sort of reinforcement after and whether that meant that I could go walk around the mall or I bought myself a new top, or I would take myself and my husband out to dinner. So building in those reinforcements are really important and they don't have to be anything big. It could be like, I'm going to go take a walk around the block with my dog now that I did this. And having those builds in sometimes throughout the week and then bigger reinforcements when I submit a big project was really helpful. You have to take time for yourself. I like to run, so I run almost every day, and I did during my graduate program too. So working out is definitely a way for me to like, release stress.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:15:25]: And just have that 30 minutes to myself, I think was really important to help preventing burnout. And then I would say I did access. One of the greatest resources that I used when I was a doctoral student at UNC was their counseling and psychological services. So I did go to therapy when I was a doctoral student using my UNC resources. So it was free for me and it was really a game changer for me. It really helped me refocus and helped me complete the program successfully. So I'm very thankful for that resource as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:00]: We definitely have to destigmatize the use of services on campus. And I've talked about that in the past, the fact that if you feel that you need help, if you feel that there are services that could help you to be successful, ask about them, search them out, and don't be afraid to put yourself out there. We have so many students that are veterans that don't take advantage of a veterans services center. We have disability centers that are not going to just go tell everyone that you have a disability. They're going to keep it confidential. They're going to talk to you. They're going to figure out what could help you to be most successful and work with you along the way. You've got caps that Melissa was just talking about about counseling services that are there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:41]: We have in our caps here at the University of Michigan, Flynn, there is a just for doctoral students. We have a specific program called the Doc Den, which is for doctoral students to come together to talk with one another, to have that group that Melissa was talking about. So there's lots of ways to find that support for yourself. And that is so, so important. As you think about the graduate programs, Melissa, that you went through and the experiences that you had, and you think about not only the in class learning and that you learned that were tangible to the field that you were studying, but a lot of times people learn things outside of the class that sometimes can be just as important. What was the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:17:25]: Networking and how to collaborate. So networking has been very important and is definitely not something I learned in the classroom. My mentor, Dr. Kathleen Lane, at my first conference, introduced me to networking and started introducing me to the professors across the special education field. And I started a lot of my research partnerships through her support and networking. So networking is really important, something I did not learn in the classroom. And then the other thing is collaboration. So that same mentor, Dr.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:18:00]: Elaine, my first year in my doctoral program, she gave a lunch and learn talk And I just really resonated with it. And I went up after the talk and was kind of out of my comfort zone, but I introduced myself to her, said how much I appreciate she did her talk and she said, I'm going to start up a group if you want to join. And I said, okay. So I showed up and we met weekly and we went around a table and every week we would share what we're working on that week, what we need help on, and any sort of successes that we had. She really cultivated a community within that group that we could lean on that was just so helping me thrive. And we were all so I felt like so successful because of that collaboration piece. I could lean on my peers if I needed help with something academic, like a presentation in class, but it could be something outside the classroom, like I'm submitting my first conference proposal and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to write for this line. So smaller things and larger projects.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:18:58]: We all supported each other and many of us are still in touch today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: Thinking about that and thinking about how graduate school changed you. How do you feel that graduate school changed the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:19:12]: I very much think about now whose voice is not being heard and who is not sitting at the table. I think grad school really opened me up to various perspectives and the importance of listening to varied perspectives when you're trying to solve a problem. And now when I'm in a group, I'm in a committee, it is sort of in the back of my mind of, okay, who's sitting at this table and who's not represented? Like, who do we need to hear from to make sure that all the all voices, all the stakeholder voices are really being heard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:45]: As you think back to your master's, your doctorate degree, and you think back to who you were as that first generation graduate student going in, not knowing a lot. What's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school at either level?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:01]: Probably that you're not alone. You know, I was anxious, especially when I started my doctoral program, I was really anxious. It was definitely out of my comfort zone. So I wish somebody would have told me that you're not alone. Other people are anxious too, and that you will find your people. And the great thing about grad school, and I felt the same about undergrad as well, but it really clicked in grad school is that it's not if I belong. You belong. You were accepted.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:29]: This is a space for you. This is where you Belong. It's just showing up and being part of that process. Right. And being part of that group. And that's something that doesn't always come easy for everybody. You do have to show up. Everyone's hanging out in the grad school lounge.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:45]: Push yourself to go to the grad school lounge to start building those relationships, because those relationships are going to help you get through the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:53]: Also, as you think back, I've asked you a lot of questions about being successful, and that's what this podcast is all about. So, in general, how do you define success for yourself now? But how did you define success for yourself while you were in the program? And has that definition changed now that you think back on it as well?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:21:13]: When I was in my master's and doctoral program, academic achievement was definitely part of my definition of success. So getting good grades in my classes and that was also reinforcement. You know, when you get a good grade, it reinforces you. So that was definitely part of my definition of success. Now my definition of the success is really focused on the impact of my work. And if my work is improving quality of lives of individuals on the autism spectrum, less about how many publications I've gotten or how many conference proposals or how many presentations I've implemented, and more about, am I actually making change? Are people benefiting from the work that I'm doing?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: As you think about someone that is out there, that's thinking about maybe going to graduate school, whether it's in education or some other field, what are some tips that you might offer to them that would help them to find success sooner?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:22:09]: First, do your research on the program that you're applying to. So look to to see what professors are there and what type of research they're doing. Especially if you want to get involved in research, it's great to have a professor that's doing research in the area you're interested in, because that can open the door for research possibilities. And I would say get involved. For me, I wasn't involved in a lot of clubs or anything in either of my graduate programs, but I was involved with my peers. I made time to connect with them. And I was very involved in research. And I was very involved as a teaching assistant.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:22:43]: That was part of the grant that I was on. But if you aren't a part of a grant where you have to have research and teaching as part of your workload, volunteer. Volunteer to do research. Volunteer to be a teaching assistant if there aren't paid opportunities, because that's going to open a lot of doors for you. You're going to make a lot of connections that way. And then also for the funding piece is investigate what type of funding might be available. That was something I didn't know a lot about as a first gen college student, that there are lot of funding mechanisms for doctoral students. There might be paid research assistantships, paid teaching assistantships.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:23:20]: So definitely do your due diligence and reach out to the program and see what opportunities are available and that that could impact your decision on where you ultimately decide to go to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:30]: Well, Melissa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey today, for sharing some of the highs, the lows and the things in between that helped you to become who you are today. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:23:43]: Thank you Dr. Lewis. I appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradofficemflint. Eduardo.

If you're planning your path to graduate school—whether you're a first-generation student, a working professional, or a lifelong learner—there's a crucial factor you shouldn't overlook: accreditation. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Daniel Sessions, Accreditation Officer at the National Association of Academic Excellence, to demystify accreditation and explain why it matters so much to your graduate journey.

Understanding Accreditation—Your Assurance of Quality

Dr. Lewis opens the conversation by highlighting how many students overlook accreditation while searching for the right program. Daniel Sessions breaks it down simply: think of accreditation as a seal of approval on your education. It stands for legitimate quality assurance and long-term value. When an institution or a program is accredited, it's been vetted by rigorous standards—giving you peace of mind that your time and investment will pay off after graduation.

The Difference Between Institutional and Programmatic Accreditation

One of the most important clarifications in the episode is the distinction between institutional and programmatic accreditation. Institutional accreditation is a broad assessment of a whole university or college. Programmatic accreditation, however, dives deeper into evaluating a specific program or area of study—often required for careers that rely on licensure or specific professional credentials, such as healthcare, accounting, or law.

Why You Need to Care About Accreditation

Dr. Lewis and Sessions stress that choosing an unaccredited or questionably accredited program can have real consequences, such as ineligibility for professional licensing, difficulty transferring credits, or even trouble qualifying for financial aid or future educational opportunities. Accreditation isn't just about prestige—it can impact your ability to practice in your field after graduating.

Essential Questions for Prospective Grad Students

Sessions encourages prospective students to ask admissions officers what role accreditation plays in their programs, verify accreditation status with official accrediting bodies, and consider how the school's reputation is reflected in the industry. Trust but verify—don't be afraid to dig deeper!

Ready to Learn More? Listen to the Full Podcast

Whether you're just starting to weigh your grad school options or you're narrowing your choices, this episode offers practical advice and insider insight that will empower you to make informed decisions. Listen to the full episode of "Victors in Grad School" to hear Daniel Sessions' personal journey, tangible tips, and deep dive into academic excellence.

Your pathway to graduate success starts with asking the right questions. Don't miss this essential conversation—give the episode a listen today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together as you are going through and figuring out those steps that you are taking to prepare yourself to go in, go through, and even go out of attending graduate school. And that's why this show exists. It's here to be able to give you some hints, some tips, some tools, some things that you can learn from that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week because there are things that you can do right now, things that you can do to prepare yourself, to make sure you're asking the right questions and making sure that you're prepared for identifying the right schools for you if you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: If you're at the very beginning or that you're making sure that you know what to do as you're going through that school and as you're looking at the light at the end of the tunnel. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you do just that. And today we got another great guest. Daniel Sessions is with us. And Daniel is an accreditation officer for the national association of Academic Excellence Incorporated. And we're going to talk about that because I've talked about accreditation in the past. If you've ever gone to any of the webinars that I've done or you've heard me talk about. Things to look for when you're looking at schools, when you're considering different schools.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And accreditation is one of those things that not everybody asks about. It's kind of in the background. Sometimes you see it on a website, but it is something that is important, and it's something that you should know about. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. But first and foremost, I'm really excited to have Daniel here. We're gonna have him talk a little bit about his own experiences as well. So, Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

Daniel Sessions [00:01:59]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis, for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here today, to have you talk about not only accreditation, but some of your own graduate school journey. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Southern Illinois University and then you graduated Went out into that workforce, graduated, got some experience, and at some point you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to continue and go on and get further education. Can you bring me back to that point and what made you make the decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Daniel Sessions [00:02:31]: So I have to give a shout out to an identity piece that I have, and that is not only a first generation undergraduate student, but a first generation graduate student. And so at that point, where I decided to go back to graduate school was I had seen the benefits that formal undergraduate education had given me as I entered, entered into the workforce. And I knew I had a taste of the nice sweet fruit. And I realized that it could only be better if I furthered my education and deepened my understanding in a very specific specialization area. And so I went on about a 12 month experience process where I tried to decide, well, what was it? There are many different areas that you could go study that you could elect to do. In addition and above and beyond that, where could I go? And so ultimately I decided to enroll and go to graduate school to better my life and to give myself not only some upward mobility in a credential perspective, but, but also just to gain further light and knowledge in my life so that I could be the best professional that I could be through advanced education. Because I felt like I was made for that and I wanted to experience that myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: Now you just talked about that. You went through that process of looking at programs, looking at schools, figuring out what you wanted to do and where you wanted to go, and I guess bring me to that point, talk to me about what you did as you were looking and, and exploring those different schools. And I know you ultimately decided to attend Northwestern University to get a Master of Science in Strategic Communication and Law. What made you decide that Northwestern was the right school? And what made you decide that Strategic Communication and Law was the right program?

Daniel Sessions [00:04:01]: So I was at a pivotal point in my adult career where I had spent the first just over a decade in clinical healthcare and had exited clinical healthcare to start teaching human anatomy and physiology at a local technical college. And I really had a departure point that I was grappling with. It was either double down and go back and go to graduate school in the form of clinical medicine, or specialize in a different area. And I loved working in education and I knew that higher education administration was something that I could see myself having a very long and rewarding career on. Now, around that same time frame, we were seeing a lot of change in the higher education space. And A lot of change in the regulatory space as it relates to oversight of education, the 2008 through 2010 and 11 timeframe. And I decided ultimately not to pursue and continue to pursue clinical healthcare, but to specialize in an area that would help me in higher education administration and strategic communications. I've always liked to talk, I've always liked to present.

Daniel Sessions [00:04:57]: And it was just something that I felt as though was part of who I am and what I do. And so to be able to rally the allegiance of my associates through words and present material and clear and concise manners was something that I was looking for. And so as I evaluated Northwestern and suburban Chicago, not only the reputation of the institution, but also the program, as I evaluated it, just seemed like it fit my needs very well. And I was very excited to jump in with both feet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now, every student, when they go from undergraduate into graduate work, there is a transition that you go through, a transition in the way in which faculty are expecting things of you, transitions in the way that you have to read, in the way that you have to write, in the way that you have to do a lot of different things. You were successful, you came into the program, you got through the program. As you made that transition from undergrad to workforce and then workforce back into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

Daniel Sessions [00:05:58]: I had to be very self disciplined in setting some boundaries for myself. If I knew I was going to be focusing on other responsibilities, I wouldn't be sort of half in my studies, my research, my assignments, my writing. If I was in school mode, I needed to be in school mode and remove all other distractions out of my life. At this time in the season of my life, I was a young father. I was working to make ends meet and go to graduate school at the same time. So my plate was quite full. And so I had to dedicate and create some boundaries for my own self so that I could give everything I had to my scholastic endeavors. And so that's really what I attribute a lot of my success to.

Daniel Sessions [00:06:33]: But also just some of those intrinsic motivation factors. Really wanting to do this not only for myself and for the process of learning and growth, but also for the process of my family and my young growing family. That really helped from a motivational perspective, to really buckle down, even when I was tired, to stick with it and take everything that I could out of the activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I mentioned earlier that you are working for the national association of academic excellence. And in that association, they are an association that is working on accreditation and accreditation for institutions, for programs. And it's not something that everyone talks about. It is not something that that especially academics talk about it, Universities talk about it. It's really important for universities for programs. But when it comes to students looking at graduate schools, when it comes to parents and students in high school looking at schools, it's not a question that is usually on the tip of their tongues. So I guess first and foremost, before we delve too deep into this, one of the things that I was really interested in having you talk about is for someone just starting to explore graduate school, how would you explain accreditation in the simplest terms?

Daniel Sessions [00:07:41]: The simplest terms I would use would be legit quality assurance and long term value. Those are the three main things that I would attribute to accreditation and what accreditation affords an institution as you're evaluating whether or not to attend graduate school there. Now, I can't talk about accreditation without rewinding the clocks back a hundred years. And when you go back 100 years ago, what did accreditation start as? And what was the main focus of accreditation when it was really entering the scene of higher education 100 years ago? And that was really quality assurance and academic excellence, Focusing on the academic rigor of the programs, the courses, the assignments, the faculty, the scholarship, you know, really putting a seal of approval on this is what you get when you are an accredited institution through this enterprise. Over the last hundred years or so, and especially in the last few decades, we've seen accreditation take on multiple different arms. And it's by virtue of just the competencies that accreditors have to offer institutions. And so we've seen over the course of that time period, accreditation start to be focused in some other areas as well, and some would argue focused in those areas more so than what they originally embarked on the journey of accreditation to do. And so I think accreditation is really, really important.

Daniel Sessions [00:08:56]: And specifically asking questions around how does that accreditation assure academic excellence within the institution? What role does quality assurance play in continuous improvement of the courses and the programs at that institution? And so accreditation, think about it as a seal of approval or an extra meas of academic excellence, as a distinction or as a distinguishing factor for that institution to talk about when you're thinking about matriculating into a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that as someone hears the word accreditation, they're going to hear institutional accreditation and they're going to hear programmatic accreditation. What is the difference between institutional accreditation and programmatic accreditation. And why does that distinction matter to students?

Daniel Sessions [00:09:43]: That distinction matters greatly. And there are two very different specific lenses that those accreditors look at. Institutional accreditation. Think about it as a 30,000 foot view with microscopes down into specific areas. It is over the entire institution at large, their entire process of continuous improvement, their entire process of faculty qualifications and institutional effectiveness. It looks at the college and the university as a whole. Whereas programmatic accreditation is specifically focused on a discipline of study or a school of study within that institution. So let's say it's a business programs accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:10:18]: They look at the business programs in a similar way that an institutional accreditor will look at the entire institution. A programmatic accreditor will look at the entire operations within that given program. And it's considered or sometimes referred to as a specialized accreditor for that specific reason, because they have specific and distinct oversight of those areas that require specialized things in those specific programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:43]: Now, when someone first goes onto a website, programs that are accredited are going to make it very clear that they're accredited. Sometimes it can be in small print and still be on a page, and sometimes it's not, as always, easy to find. But usually a program will be very proud of the fact that they've been accredited by a agency. As you think about graduate students that are considering different programs, why should prospective graduate students pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:11:10]: Well, you should pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program for a couple of reasons. One, programmatic accreditation is largely voluntary. It's voluntary in the fact that there are many programs out there that may not be programmatically accredited. And you have to understand why that matters. Now, as you're approaching, say, a specific discipline of study that has and or leads to some form of professional licensure within your state or within your country, it's really, really important to attend a programmatically accredited program. There are higher standards on the outcomes of those graduates that lead to licenses within their given discipline or their given employment field, say accountancy, for example, or some healthcare examples, or social work, mental health type providers, or even teachers. Right? By looking at programmatically accredited programs, you're basically understanding that they are meeting very specific outcomes that these accreditors will require of these programs that are competencies demonstrated and or retained by graduates of that program. And so if you're thinking about and evaluating programmatic accreditation of a given program, it's really, really also too important to know, does this program lead to some form of specific type of licensure or specific type of approval to be employed in that field.

Daniel Sessions [00:12:29]: And if so, that should even bump up your priority level of a programmatically accredited program even more so in thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: About that, it seems like you're saying that especially for those credential programs, there are definitely some risks or consequences of not enrolling in a program. So what are some of those risks or consequences that students should be aware of if they don't enroll in a program that has that proper accreditation?

Daniel Sessions [00:12:54]: The best example that I can give you is one within the clinical healthcare space. You know, and somebody that was educated internationally, they could find themselves not being able to be appointed to the boards here within the United States to practice in that clinical healthcare profession. They could find employers that are unwilling to employ graduates of unaccredited programs. And so while you may be able to navigate the academic journey and attain many of your scholastic endeavors that you want to obtain for your own personal sort of intrinsic value, the outcome of an unaccredited program may ultimately be difficulty in the life after graduate school. What does that look like after and how do I demonstrate that while I did have and achieve great learning, some employers may not even entertain discussing potential employment with you if you did not attend a programmatic the accredited program?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:44]: Well, another example, I worked at a law school for almost 10 years, and there are law schools that are accredited only in certain states. And if you attend a law school that is accredited only by, let's say, California, you can only practice in California and sit for the bar exam in California. You cannot sit for any other bar exam in any other state. You can only sit for the bar exam in that state. So you have to be really willing to stay in one state to use that license if you're going to sit for the bar exam. It doesn't take away the fact that you got a JD but it does take away the ability to be able to sit for the bar exam and take that credential with you and sit for other bar exams in other states. So that's just another example that could be a risk if you are not asking those right questions on the way. Are there other, other impacts that you can think of, Daniel, that this accreditation can impact, like financial aid or transfer of credits or other aspects that students should be thinking about?

Daniel Sessions [00:14:44]: Yes, absolutely. And so if continuing education, if you're, if you consider yourself like I do, a lifelong learner and you decide that you would like to even level up, let's say you're considering a master degree right now, but you're not closing the door on potential Doctoral studies someday, sometimes depending on where your ultimate terminal degree efforts will go toward, they may not accept a subordinate master's degree if it doesn't come from a institutionally accredited institution or even potentially a programmatically accredited program. And where I think there's sort of been an escalating factor in this area is I am a study of technology. I love the way we're leveraging technology and our learning nowadays and the ability and the freedoms that we've discovered in still maintaining academic rigor and academic excellence while leveraging technology in our studies. We also have to be very, very careful about selecting, for example, online education and what are the impacts like you've identified with a law degree that you may need to consider? What are the specific approvals that that online program offers? Yes. Does it have any residency based requirements? Does it have any long term employment related concerns like limited ability to procure the appropriate license or approval for your long term career journeys? So those are just a few things. As far as transferability of credit, when you start talking graduate school transfer of credit is less important than say undergraduate transferability just because of the number of institutions that sometimes students will attend before degree attainment. But it's still an appropriate conversation to have, especially as you're leveling up to the next level or going from a master's degree to a doctoral degree.

Daniel Sessions [00:16:20]: Some doctoral programs will recognize those subordinate masters and some will not. Just frankly will not. And so that's something you should definitely consider because don't shut the door on your own goals because you could find that you love higher level learning and want to continue up the doctoral level as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: So I talked earlier about this conversation really leads to the fact that you have to know the questions to ask and you need to make sure that you're asking the right questions as you're going through this process of identifying the right program for you. So what are some of the most important questions that students should be asking schools or programs about accreditation before committing to a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:16:56]: So I think a very high level question that will be very telling and how these programs or these schools or these admissions officers or these program deans that you may be talking with as you're deciding whether to enroll or not? One of the higher level questions that you can ask is what role does accreditation play in your program or your institution? And hear their answer. If it's something that they have to take a minute to think about, well then maybe that's telling you something without actually telling you something by virtue of how they arrive at Their answer will tell you whether or not accreditation is something they think about every ten year cycle, or every five year report cycle, which are the typical reporting cycles in the accreditation world, or whether it's something that is really ingrained into the courses, the academic rigor, the continuous improvement that they engage in on an ongoing basis to make their program and their institution as best as it can be. You know a second question that you can ask, are really outcomes related and outcomes focused? You know, what do graduates of your programs typically do? And do you have examples of what types of graduate outcomes, what students have gone on to do after graduation? And so those are just a couple of things to say. Help me tangibly understand what role does accreditation play in the ongoing continuous improvement of your institution and your program, but also what does your program do in the lives of the graduates? Because I'm a firm believer that you can talk about how good your program is and talk about all the wonderful things that you do as part of that academic journey, but really how does it impact the lives of your students and your graduates? And that will be a very telling story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:25]: One of the things that I know that sometimes you'll see on different websites as you look at different programs is that you may see something that says that a accreditation is pending or a program is on probation. What does that really mean? And should students be cautious when they see words like this?

Daniel Sessions [00:18:47]: So pending accreditation status is less problematic so than say a probation or a show cause or a specific type of monitoring distinction. Anytime you see probation, show cause, monitoring related statuses within accreditation, that means something, something has gone wrong. It may not necessarily mean that there's a systemic issue, but what it may mean is that they failed to demonstrate something specific to the standards or criteria or measures that the accreditor expects of partner and member based institutions or programs. And so that's definitely a point of question. Ask about that, ask about what led to that status. Ask about what they're doing now to resolve that status or when they expect that that status will be changed to a regular accreditation status. Now, the pending status, that may just mean it's a new accreditation for them. A lot of accreditations like the NAE that I work for, we will enter institutions into a pending status for a period of time while you, those institutions assess specific student outcomes and help those, there's that data about student success tell the story of academic excellence.

Daniel Sessions [00:19:54]: And so a pending status may just mean that it's either a new process for them or they're, they're going in a, in A RE certification process with that accreditation review cycle. And so it may just be a seasonality type thing where. Where they're currently in that RE review process. So pending is less concerning to me as it would be any type of what I would consider to be a negative distinction, like a show cause like a probation, like a heightened monitoring type status, because that's usually an indicator that something has gone awry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Speaking of accreditation status, how can students verify that a program's accreditation status is both legitimate, but also make sure that what is being shared on the website by the program is accurate and not misleading?

Daniel Sessions [00:20:38]: I'm a big fan of the Ronald Reagan quote, trust but verify. I think it's important to ask the institution about their programmatic status, but I have yet to find an accreditor out there in the higher education space that also doesn't give students and consumers the ability to look up the status of an institution. So ask them, but then verify that. Go to the actual accreditor, look and find the area wherein you can verify. And oftentimes under the accreditation tab of many institutional websites, they'll have a direct link to their accreditor's website where you can verify from the accreditor themselves, not the institution, what their current status is. And oftentimes publicly available documents like decision letters, like if there is a negative accreditation status, usually there'll be some form of documentation on the accreditor website that sheds a little bit of light. Obviously not down into the details or not into specifically personally protected information, but information on, well, maybe this institution failed to demonstrate successful outcomes of their graduation rates or something like that. So trust but verify.

Daniel Sessions [00:21:39]: Ask the institution. I think you owe it to the institution and the program to ask them themselves. Tell us your story about your accreditation and then go verify that with the actual accreditor themselves and you'll be surprised. You can find a lot of information if you just click 1, 2, or maybe even at most 3 clicks down to find the information that you're looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:57]: One of the other questions that I have is that there are sometimes numerous types of accreditors that are out there, many types of accreditors for institutions, but there's also at times different accreditors for programs, and then there's programs that have no accrediting body. So how do you sift through the milieu in regards to all the different plethora of different accrediting bodies that are out there to know what you're actually seeing and able to really know what matters as you're looking at the Fact that, yeah, the institution is accredited by AACSB or some other agency, but what does that really mean and what should they be looking for in that regard?

Daniel Sessions [00:22:44]: Yeah, so accreditation is definitely something that we're hearing a lot about in higher education right now. And one of the things we call it the regulatory triad in higher education, there's the federal level, the U.S. department of Education, there's the accreditors, you know, the institutional and programmatic accreditation. But then there's also the state approving agencies where these institutions operate their schools. And so if you're unsure about a specific accreditor and whether or not they have the distinction that they say they do, well, you can go out and take a look at do they have federal approval through the U.S. department of Education? Are they a part of different creditor type associations like chia, which is a great distinction that you can find from an accreditation perspective. Now that's more so for an institutional accreditation from a programmatic accreditation. It's also about how is it regarded within the industry with which that they accredit programs? How does the business community look at that specific business accreditor? How does the health professions community look at this specific accreditor? And so there's always one, two or three ways in which you can sort of corroborate whether or not a specific accreditor has the distinction and the reputation that they themselves will say in the marketplace that they have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: So as I think about accreditation a little bit further, in your perspective, how does accreditation adapt to new fields of study or emerging disciplines in graduate education, undergraduate education, like you said that maybe they don't have an accreditation body yet because they're a new field of study.

Daniel Sessions [00:24:13]: So I think that's part of what I like to call, and we talk a lot about at the NAAE is continuous quality improvement. How does the institution find ways to apply the pedagogies that they engage when teaching and learning at their institution, but also the scholastic endeavors, the research, and how do they create these new programs in these new discipline areas? You know, think about, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't talking a lot about artificial intelligence engines and algorithms that create these types. And now, you know, you're getting degree programs in these specific areas. So how does that come to be? That can come to be from industry review boards partnering with institution or with providers of specific business sector things. What do they need in graduates to fill their entry level or managerial type roles? It can be in calling upon a new and additional research that the, the faculty will engage in to discover more about that discipline of study or that program of study. And so it's what I would say is germane to the sort of the academic experience as we develop into new areas, new technologies, new fields of study. How did they arrive at that? How are they continuously looking for ways in which to make their program the best that it can be for the students who ultimately raise their hand voluntarily and say, I want to learn that, I want to do that and I want to, to take that back out into the, into the world and be a contributing member of society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: So talking about your organization, I mentioned the fact that there are different organizations. There are university accreditors, there's programmatic accreditors, and each one looks at things a little bit differently. Talk to me about your organization. What makes your organization different in how you look at programs or how you look at institutions and how it stands apart from other agencies?

Daniel Sessions [00:25:55]: Sure. So the national association of Academic Excellence has sort of that differentiator that I'll share with you in the name itself, and that is academic excellence. That story that I told you earlier about going 100 years ago, when accreditation first started, that was really the central focus was that academic excellence piece. And it's our opinion over the years that accreditation has, while continued to pay attention to academic excellence, placed importance on other federal compliance areas. As at the federal level, different demands were being placed on accreditors. So one of the things that the main differentiator of the NAAE is the data set with which we will assess and seek quality assurance in the way that outcomes are being generated from an institution. Oftentimes you have to submit a self study or an assurance argument that talks about and shows data as to why and how you do what you do and back it up by evidence. And oftentimes that evidence that's examined is backwards looking or what happened last academic year and tell us a story about how that assures that you meet the standards and the measures of the accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:26:57]: Whereas at the NAE, we actually ask you to make a plan and make a hypothesis and say this is how we intend to drive the outcomes that we're looking to drive within our programs and then go assess it for an academic year or two and at the end of that data set, that academic year or two, come back and tell us your story, what you thought you were going to do, did it actually happen and what were the main drivers to make that happen in the real lives of the students that were in those programs within your institution, and if it didn't, what went wrong? And what will you do different next academic year to improve those outcomes? And so rather than crafting a story and an argument about your compliance with the standards and the measures by looking backwards at stuff that's already happened, we ask you to take a snapshot in real time about where you're going and then go there and then tell us whether or not you were right or wrong and what you're going to do differently as you attempt to continuously improve over the next few academic years. And so that's. And when people ask what's the main differentiator of our emerging accreditation, that's what I believe is the big differentiator.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:57]: Finally, in regards to accreditation, what final piece of advice would you give to prospective graduate students about accreditation and making an informed choice?

Daniel Sessions [00:28:08]: I would just remind you that accreditation matters again. Where accreditation started was the pursuit of academic excellence, academic rigor and faculty thought leadership. As you continue on that educational journey and ensuring that the faculty are unbridled from undue political pressure or that they are giving back to the communities in the discipline which they're studying and that accreditation should help tell that story. And don't just rely upon the word of one or two trust, but verify. Ask the questions. Don't shy away from asking the questions, but then go verify for yourself. Talk to employers, talk to industry experts, go look at the accreditations website and see what they talk about that institution so that you can be an informing factor to you in selecting your graduate school experience and that by attending a school or university that is accredited, you can have some assurance that it has been validated by a third party source.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:04]: Well, Daniel, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing not only your own journey, but sharing so much about accreditation, why it's important, and why anyone that's thinking about graduate school should be thinking about accreditation and should be asking questions about accreditation because it is important. And I truly appreciate you sharing this because I know that it will add some additional questions that people should be asking and hopefully now will be asking as they are going through this process for themselves. So thank you. Thank you for your time and I wish you all the best.

Daniel Sessions [00:29:37]: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]:

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together as you are going through and figuring out those steps that you are taking to prepare yourself to go in, go through, and even go out of attending graduate school. And that's why this show exists. It's here to be able to give you some hints, some tips, some tools, some things that you can learn from that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week because there are things that you can do right now, things that you can do to prepare yourself, to make sure you're asking the right questions and making sure that you're prepared for identifying the right schools for you if you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: If you're at the very beginning or that you're making sure that you know what to do as you're going through that school and as you're looking at the light at the end of the tunnel. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you do just that. And today we got another great guest. Daniel Sessions is with us. And Daniel is an accreditation officer for the national association of Academic Excellence Incorporated. And we're going to talk about that because I've talked about accreditation in the past. If you've ever gone to any of the webinars that I've done or you've heard me talk about. Things to look for when you're looking at schools, when you're considering different schools.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And accreditation is one of those things that not everybody asks about. It's kind of in the background. Sometimes you see it on a website, but it is something that is important, and it's something that you should know about. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. But first and foremost, I'm really excited to have Daniel here. We're gonna have him talk a little bit about his own experiences as well. So, Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

Daniel Sessions [00:01:59]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis, for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here today, to have you talk about not only accreditation, but some of your own graduate school journey. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Southern Illinois University and then you graduated Went out into that workforce, graduated, got some experience, and at some point you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to continue and go on and get further education. Can you bring me back to that point and what made you make the decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Daniel Sessions [00:02:31]: So I have to give a shout out to an identity piece that I have, and that is not only a first generation undergraduate student, but a first generation graduate student. And so at that point, where I decided to go back to graduate school was I had seen the benefits that formal undergraduate education had given me as I entered, entered into the workforce. And I knew I had a taste of the nice sweet fruit. And I realized that it could only be better if I furthered my education and deepened my understanding in a very specific specialization area. And so I went on about a 12 month experience process where I tried to decide, well, what was it? There are many different areas that you could go study that you could elect to do. In addition and above and beyond that, where could I go? And so ultimately I decided to enroll and go to graduate school to better my life and to give myself not only some upward mobility in a credential perspective, but, but also just to gain further light and knowledge in my life so that I could be the best professional that I could be through advanced education. Because I felt like I was made for that and I wanted to experience that myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: Now you just talked about that. You went through that process of looking at programs, looking at schools, figuring out what you wanted to do and where you wanted to go, and I guess bring me to that point, talk to me about what you did as you were looking and, and exploring those different schools. And I know you ultimately decided to attend Northwestern University to get a Master of Science in Strategic Communication and Law. What made you decide that Northwestern was the right school? And what made you decide that Strategic Communication and Law was the right program?

Daniel Sessions [00:04:01]: So I was at a pivotal point in my adult career where I had spent the first just over a decade in clinical healthcare and had exited clinical healthcare to start teaching human anatomy and physiology at a local technical college. And I really had a departure point that I was grappling with. It was either double down and go back and go to graduate school in the form of clinical medicine, or specialize in a different area. And I loved working in education and I knew that higher education administration was something that I could see myself having a very long and rewarding career on. Now, around that same time frame, we were seeing a lot of change in the higher education space. And A lot of change in the regulatory space as it relates to oversight of education, the 2008 through 2010 and 11 timeframe. And I decided ultimately not to pursue and continue to pursue clinical healthcare, but to specialize in an area that would help me in higher education administration and strategic communications. I've always liked to talk, I've always liked to present.

Daniel Sessions [00:04:57]: And it was just something that I felt as though was part of who I am and what I do. And so to be able to rally the allegiance of my associates through words and present material and clear and concise manners was something that I was looking for. And so as I evaluated Northwestern and suburban Chicago, not only the reputation of the institution, but also the program, as I evaluated it, just seemed like it fit my needs very well. And I was very excited to jump in with both feet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now, every student, when they go from undergraduate into graduate work, there is a transition that you go through, a transition in the way in which faculty are expecting things of you, transitions in the way that you have to read, in the way that you have to write, in the way that you have to do a lot of different things. You were successful, you came into the program, you got through the program. As you made that transition from undergrad to workforce and then workforce back into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

Daniel Sessions [00:05:58]: I had to be very self disciplined in setting some boundaries for myself. If I knew I was going to be focusing on other responsibilities, I wouldn't be sort of half in my studies, my research, my assignments, my writing. If I was in school mode, I needed to be in school mode and remove all other distractions out of my life. At this time in the season of my life, I was a young father. I was working to make ends meet and go to graduate school at the same time. So my plate was quite full. And so I had to dedicate and create some boundaries for my own self so that I could give everything I had to my scholastic endeavors. And so that's really what I attribute a lot of my success to.

Daniel Sessions [00:06:33]: But also just some of those intrinsic motivation factors. Really wanting to do this not only for myself and for the process of learning and growth, but also for the process of my family and my young growing family. That really helped from a motivational perspective, to really buckle down, even when I was tired, to stick with it and take everything that I could out of the activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I mentioned earlier that you are working for the national association of academic excellence. And in that association, they are an association that is working on accreditation and accreditation for institutions, for programs. And it's not something that everyone talks about. It is not something that that especially academics talk about it, Universities talk about it. It's really important for universities for programs. But when it comes to students looking at graduate schools, when it comes to parents and students in high school looking at schools, it's not a question that is usually on the tip of their tongues. So I guess first and foremost, before we delve too deep into this, one of the things that I was really interested in having you talk about is for someone just starting to explore graduate school, how would you explain accreditation in the simplest terms?

Daniel Sessions [00:07:41]: The simplest terms I would use would be legit quality assurance and long term value. Those are the three main things that I would attribute to accreditation and what accreditation affords an institution as you're evaluating whether or not to attend graduate school there. Now, I can't talk about accreditation without rewinding the clocks back a hundred years. And when you go back 100 years ago, what did accreditation start as? And what was the main focus of accreditation when it was really entering the scene of higher education 100 years ago? And that was really quality assurance and academic excellence, Focusing on the academic rigor of the programs, the courses, the assignments, the faculty, the scholarship, you know, really putting a seal of approval on this is what you get when you are an accredited institution through this enterprise. Over the last hundred years or so, and especially in the last few decades, we've seen accreditation take on multiple different arms. And it's by virtue of just the competencies that accreditors have to offer institutions. And so we've seen over the course of that time period, accreditation start to be focused in some other areas as well, and some would argue focused in those areas more so than what they originally embarked on the journey of accreditation to do. And so I think accreditation is really, really important.

Daniel Sessions [00:08:56]: And specifically asking questions around how does that accreditation assure academic excellence within the institution? What role does quality assurance play in continuous improvement of the courses and the programs at that institution? And so accreditation, think about it as a seal of approval or an extra meas of academic excellence, as a distinction or as a distinguishing factor for that institution to talk about when you're thinking about matriculating into a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that as someone hears the word accreditation, they're going to hear institutional accreditation and they're going to hear programmatic accreditation. What is the difference between institutional accreditation and programmatic accreditation. And why does that distinction matter to students?

Daniel Sessions [00:09:43]: That distinction matters greatly. And there are two very different specific lenses that those accreditors look at. Institutional accreditation. Think about it as a 30,000 foot view with microscopes down into specific areas. It is over the entire institution at large, their entire process of continuous improvement, their entire process of faculty qualifications and institutional effectiveness. It looks at the college and the university as a whole. Whereas programmatic accreditation is specifically focused on a discipline of study or a school of study within that institution. So let's say it's a business programs accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:10:18]: They look at the business programs in a similar way that an institutional accreditor will look at the entire institution. A programmatic accreditor will look at the entire operations within that given program. And it's considered or sometimes referred to as a specialized accreditor for that specific reason, because they have specific and distinct oversight of those areas that require specialized things in those specific programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:43]: Now, when someone first goes onto a website, programs that are accredited are going to make it very clear that they're accredited. Sometimes it can be in small print and still be on a page, and sometimes it's not, as always, easy to find. But usually a program will be very proud of the fact that they've been accredited by a agency. As you think about graduate students that are considering different programs, why should prospective graduate students pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:11:10]: Well, you should pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program for a couple of reasons. One, programmatic accreditation is largely voluntary. It's voluntary in the fact that there are many programs out there that may not be programmatically accredited. And you have to understand why that matters. Now, as you're approaching, say, a specific discipline of study that has and or leads to some form of professional licensure within your state or within your country, it's really, really important to attend a programmatically accredited program. There are higher standards on the outcomes of those graduates that lead to licenses within their given discipline or their given employment field, say accountancy, for example, or some healthcare examples, or social work, mental health type providers, or even teachers. Right? By looking at programmatically accredited programs, you're basically understanding that they are meeting very specific outcomes that these accreditors will require of these programs that are competencies demonstrated and or retained by graduates of that program. And so if you're thinking about and evaluating programmatic accreditation of a given program, it's really, really also too important to know, does this program lead to some form of specific type of licensure or specific type of approval to be employed in that field.

Daniel Sessions [00:12:29]: And if so, that should even bump up your priority level of a programmatically accredited program even more so in thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: About that, it seems like you're saying that especially for those credential programs, there are definitely some risks or consequences of not enrolling in a program. So what are some of those risks or consequences that students should be aware of if they don't enroll in a program that has that proper accreditation?

Daniel Sessions [00:12:54]: The best example that I can give you is one within the clinical healthcare space. You know, and somebody that was educated internationally, they could find themselves not being able to be appointed to the boards here within the United States to practice in that clinical healthcare profession. They could find employers that are unwilling to employ graduates of unaccredited programs. And so while you may be able to navigate the academic journey and attain many of your scholastic endeavors that you want to obtain for your own personal sort of intrinsic value, the outcome of an unaccredited program may ultimately be difficulty in the life after graduate school. What does that look like after and how do I demonstrate that while I did have and achieve great learning, some employers may not even entertain discussing potential employment with you if you did not attend a programmatic the accredited program?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:44]: Well, another example, I worked at a law school for almost 10 years, and there are law schools that are accredited only in certain states. And if you attend a law school that is accredited only by, let's say, California, you can only practice in California and sit for the bar exam in California. You cannot sit for any other bar exam in any other state. You can only sit for the bar exam in that state. So you have to be really willing to stay in one state to use that license if you're going to sit for the bar exam. It doesn't take away the fact that you got a JD but it does take away the ability to be able to sit for the bar exam and take that credential with you and sit for other bar exams in other states. So that's just another example that could be a risk if you are not asking those right questions on the way. Are there other, other impacts that you can think of, Daniel, that this accreditation can impact, like financial aid or transfer of credits or other aspects that students should be thinking about?

Daniel Sessions [00:14:44]: Yes, absolutely. And so if continuing education, if you're, if you consider yourself like I do, a lifelong learner and you decide that you would like to even level up, let's say you're considering a master degree right now, but you're not closing the door on potential Doctoral studies someday, sometimes depending on where your ultimate terminal degree efforts will go toward, they may not accept a subordinate master's degree if it doesn't come from a institutionally accredited institution or even potentially a programmatically accredited program. And where I think there's sort of been an escalating factor in this area is I am a study of technology. I love the way we're leveraging technology and our learning nowadays and the ability and the freedoms that we've discovered in still maintaining academic rigor and academic excellence while leveraging technology in our studies. We also have to be very, very careful about selecting, for example, online education and what are the impacts like you've identified with a law degree that you may need to consider? What are the specific approvals that that online program offers? Yes. Does it have any residency based requirements? Does it have any long term employment related concerns like limited ability to procure the appropriate license or approval for your long term career journeys? So those are just a few things. As far as transferability of credit, when you start talking graduate school transfer of credit is less important than say undergraduate transferability just because of the number of institutions that sometimes students will attend before degree attainment. But it's still an appropriate conversation to have, especially as you're leveling up to the next level or going from a master's degree to a doctoral degree.

Daniel Sessions [00:16:20]: Some doctoral programs will recognize those subordinate masters and some will not. Just frankly will not. And so that's something you should definitely consider because don't shut the door on your own goals because you could find that you love higher level learning and want to continue up the doctoral level as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: So I talked earlier about this conversation really leads to the fact that you have to know the questions to ask and you need to make sure that you're asking the right questions as you're going through this process of identifying the right program for you. So what are some of the most important questions that students should be asking schools or programs about accreditation before committing to a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:16:56]: So I think a very high level question that will be very telling and how these programs or these schools or these admissions officers or these program deans that you may be talking with as you're deciding whether to enroll or not? One of the higher level questions that you can ask is what role does accreditation play in your program or your institution? And hear their answer. If it's something that they have to take a minute to think about, well then maybe that's telling you something without actually telling you something by virtue of how they arrive at Their answer will tell you whether or not accreditation is something they think about every ten year cycle, or every five year report cycle, which are the typical reporting cycles in the accreditation world, or whether it's something that is really ingrained into the courses, the academic rigor, the continuous improvement that they engage in on an ongoing basis to make their program and their institution as best as it can be. You know a second question that you can ask, are really outcomes related and outcomes focused? You know, what do graduates of your programs typically do? And do you have examples of what types of graduate outcomes, what students have gone on to do after graduation? And so those are just a couple of things to say. Help me tangibly understand what role does accreditation play in the ongoing continuous improvement of your institution and your program, but also what does your program do in the lives of the graduates? Because I'm a firm believer that you can talk about how good your program is and talk about all the wonderful things that you do as part of that academic journey, but really how does it impact the lives of your students and your graduates? And that will be a very telling story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:25]: One of the things that I know that sometimes you'll see on different websites as you look at different programs is that you may see something that says that a accreditation is pending or a program is on probation. What does that really mean? And should students be cautious when they see words like this?

Daniel Sessions [00:18:47]: So pending accreditation status is less problematic so than say a probation or a show cause or a specific type of monitoring distinction. Anytime you see probation, show cause, monitoring related statuses within accreditation, that means something, something has gone wrong. It may not necessarily mean that there's a systemic issue, but what it may mean is that they failed to demonstrate something specific to the standards or criteria or measures that the accreditor expects of partner and member based institutions or programs. And so that's definitely a point of question. Ask about that, ask about what led to that status. Ask about what they're doing now to resolve that status or when they expect that that status will be changed to a regular accreditation status. Now, the pending status, that may just mean it's a new accreditation for them. A lot of accreditations like the NAE that I work for, we will enter institutions into a pending status for a period of time while you, those institutions assess specific student outcomes and help those, there's that data about student success tell the story of academic excellence.

Daniel Sessions [00:19:54]: And so a pending status may just mean that it's either a new process for them or they're, they're going in a, in A RE certification process with that accreditation review cycle. And so it may just be a seasonality type thing where. Where they're currently in that RE review process. So pending is less concerning to me as it would be any type of what I would consider to be a negative distinction, like a show cause like a probation, like a heightened monitoring type status, because that's usually an indicator that something has gone awry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Speaking of accreditation status, how can students verify that a program's accreditation status is both legitimate, but also make sure that what is being shared on the website by the program is accurate and not misleading?

Daniel Sessions [00:20:38]: I'm a big fan of the Ronald Reagan quote, trust but verify. I think it's important to ask the institution about their programmatic status, but I have yet to find an accreditor out there in the higher education space that also doesn't give students and consumers the ability to look up the status of an institution. So ask them, but then verify that. Go to the actual accreditor, look and find the area wherein you can verify. And oftentimes under the accreditation tab of many institutional websites, they'll have a direct link to their accreditor's website where you can verify from the accreditor themselves, not the institution, what their current status is. And oftentimes publicly available documents like decision letters, like if there is a negative accreditation status, usually there'll be some form of documentation on the accreditor website that sheds a little bit of light. Obviously not down into the details or not into specifically personally protected information, but information on, well, maybe this institution failed to demonstrate successful outcomes of their graduation rates or something like that. So trust but verify.

Daniel Sessions [00:21:39]: Ask the institution. I think you owe it to the institution and the program to ask them themselves. Tell us your story about your accreditation and then go verify that with the actual accreditor themselves and you'll be surprised. You can find a lot of information if you just click 1, 2, or maybe even at most 3 clicks down to find the information that you're looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:57]: One of the other questions that I have is that there are sometimes numerous types of accreditors that are out there, many types of accreditors for institutions, but there's also at times different accreditors for programs, and then there's programs that have no accrediting body. So how do you sift through the milieu in regards to all the different plethora of different accrediting bodies that are out there to know what you're actually seeing and able to really know what matters as you're looking at the Fact that, yeah, the institution is accredited by AACSB or some other agency, but what does that really mean and what should they be looking for in that regard?

Daniel Sessions [00:22:44]: Yeah, so accreditation is definitely something that we're hearing a lot about in higher education right now. And one of the things we call it the regulatory triad in higher education, there's the federal level, the U.S. department of Education, there's the accreditors, you know, the institutional and programmatic accreditation. But then there's also the state approving agencies where these institutions operate their schools. And so if you're unsure about a specific accreditor and whether or not they have the distinction that they say they do, well, you can go out and take a look at do they have federal approval through the U.S. department of Education? Are they a part of different creditor type associations like chia, which is a great distinction that you can find from an accreditation perspective. Now that's more so for an institutional accreditation from a programmatic accreditation. It's also about how is it regarded within the industry with which that they accredit programs? How does the business community look at that specific business accreditor? How does the health professions community look at this specific accreditor? And so there's always one, two or three ways in which you can sort of corroborate whether or not a specific accreditor has the distinction and the reputation that they themselves will say in the marketplace that they have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: So as I think about accreditation a little bit further, in your perspective, how does accreditation adapt to new fields of study or emerging disciplines in graduate education, undergraduate education, like you said that maybe they don't have an accreditation body yet because they're a new field of study.

Daniel Sessions [00:24:13]: So I think that's part of what I like to call, and we talk a lot about at the NAAE is continuous quality improvement. How does the institution find ways to apply the pedagogies that they engage when teaching and learning at their institution, but also the scholastic endeavors, the research, and how do they create these new programs in these new discipline areas? You know, think about, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't talking a lot about artificial intelligence engines and algorithms that create these types. And now, you know, you're getting degree programs in these specific areas. So how does that come to be? That can come to be from industry review boards partnering with institution or with providers of specific business sector things. What do they need in graduates to fill their entry level or managerial type roles? It can be in calling upon a new and additional research that the, the faculty will engage in to discover more about that discipline of study or that program of study. And so it's what I would say is germane to the sort of the academic experience as we develop into new areas, new technologies, new fields of study. How did they arrive at that? How are they continuously looking for ways in which to make their program the best that it can be for the students who ultimately raise their hand voluntarily and say, I want to learn that, I want to do that and I want to, to take that back out into the, into the world and be a contributing member of society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: So talking about your organization, I mentioned the fact that there are different organizations. There are university accreditors, there's programmatic accreditors, and each one looks at things a little bit differently. Talk to me about your organization. What makes your organization different in how you look at programs or how you look at institutions and how it stands apart from other agencies?

Daniel Sessions [00:25:55]: Sure. So the national association of Academic Excellence has sort of that differentiator that I'll share with you in the name itself, and that is academic excellence. That story that I told you earlier about going 100 years ago, when accreditation first started, that was really the central focus was that academic excellence piece. And it's our opinion over the years that accreditation has, while continued to pay attention to academic excellence, placed importance on other federal compliance areas. As at the federal level, different demands were being placed on accreditors. So one of the things that the main differentiator of the NAAE is the data set with which we will assess and seek quality assurance in the way that outcomes are being generated from an institution. Oftentimes you have to submit a self study or an assurance argument that talks about and shows data as to why and how you do what you do and back it up by evidence. And oftentimes that evidence that's examined is backwards looking or what happened last academic year and tell us a story about how that assures that you meet the standards and the measures of the accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:26:57]: Whereas at the NAE, we actually ask you to make a plan and make a hypothesis and say this is how we intend to drive the outcomes that we're looking to drive within our programs and then go assess it for an academic year or two and at the end of that data set, that academic year or two, come back and tell us your story, what you thought you were going to do, did it actually happen and what were the main drivers to make that happen in the real lives of the students that were in those programs within your institution, and if it didn't, what went wrong? And what will you do different next academic year to improve those outcomes? And so rather than crafting a story and an argument about your compliance with the standards and the measures by looking backwards at stuff that's already happened, we ask you to take a snapshot in real time about where you're going and then go there and then tell us whether or not you were right or wrong and what you're going to do differently as you attempt to continuously improve over the next few academic years. And so that's. And when people ask what's the main differentiator of our emerging accreditation, that's what I believe is the big differentiator.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:57]: Finally, in regards to accreditation, what final piece of advice would you give to prospective graduate students about accreditation and making an informed choice?

Daniel Sessions [00:28:08]: I would just remind you that accreditation matters again. Where accreditation started was the pursuit of academic excellence, academic rigor and faculty thought leadership. As you continue on that educational journey and ensuring that the faculty are unbridled from undue political pressure or that they are giving back to the communities in the discipline which they're studying and that accreditation should help tell that story. And don't just rely upon the word of one or two trust, but verify. Ask the questions. Don't shy away from asking the questions, but then go verify for yourself. Talk to employers, talk to industry experts, go look at the accreditations website and see what they talk about that institution so that you can be an informing factor to you in selecting your graduate school experience and that by attending a school or university that is accredited, you can have some assurance that it has been validated by a third party source.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:04]: Well, Daniel, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing not only your own journey, but sharing so much about accreditation, why it's important, and why anyone that's thinking about graduate school should be thinking about accreditation and should be asking questions about accreditation because it is important. And I truly appreciate you sharing this because I know that it will add some additional questions that people should be asking and hopefully now will be asking as they are going through this process for themselves. So thank you. Thank you for your time and I wish you all the best.

Daniel Sessions [00:29:37]: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on graduate school is more than just an academic decision—it's a deeply personal journey marked by self-discovery, challenge, growth, and, ultimately, transformation. In the recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Dr. Jonathan Bartels, Assistant Professor of Education at the University of Michigan-Flint, to explore the realities of pursuing advanced degrees and the invaluable lessons learned along the way.

Dr. Bartels' candid reflection on his path—from an undergraduate at East Carolina University to earning his master's while teaching, and then pursuing a doctorate at UNC Chapel Hill—sheds light on several key themes that resonate with anyone considering or currently navigating graduate education.

1. The Nonlinear Nature of Academic Paths

One of the central takeaways is that the journey to and through graduate school isn't always mapped out from the start. Dr. Bartels never planned to pursue a master's or a doctorate—he was fueled by a desire for deeper intellectual engagement and the encouragement of mentors who saw potential in him. His story reassures listeners that it's okay—and often beneficial—to let curiosity and passion guide your next steps, even if they diverge from your original plan.

2. The Power of Mentorship and Community

Dr. Bartels emphasizes how pivotal faculty relationships were to his development, especially choosing graduate programs based on the research interests and support of specific professors. Connecting with advisors and building a supportive cohort community can ease transitions and provide both professional opportunities and emotional sustenance.

3. Managing Mindset and Embracing Growth

Imposter syndrome and self-doubt are common companions in graduate school. Dr. Bartels opens up about normalizing these feelings and maintaining perspective: your presence in a program is evidence of your worth, and challenging moments are natural signs of growth. Reframing experiences from "jumping hoops" to opportunities for learning and self-betterment is key for long-term success.

4. Balancing Life and Prioritizing Well-Being

Graduate study often means juggling academics, work, family, and personal commitments. Dr. Bartels offers practical advice—set boundaries, proactively communicate with faculty, make time for rest, and remember that self-care is not a luxury but a necessity for sustainable, effective learning.

5. Purpose-Driven Learning

Most crucially, Dr. Bartels reminds us to continually revisit our "why" for pursuing graduate education. Anchoring your studies in your personal and professional aspirations provides resilience, motivation, and a sense of direction to weather the inevitable challenges.

Whether you're contemplating graduate school or already in the trenches, this podcast episode is packed with honest advice and encouragement. Listen in to gain insight and inspiration for your own academic journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are working together on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is. As you go from your undergraduate degree to looking at the possibility of a graduate degree, or maybe you've already applied, you got an accepted, or maybe you're even in a graduate program now. This continuum that you're on is definitely a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: You're going to learn a ton along this whole pathway. But there are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself better for the future that you want to attain. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to. To identify ways in which you can be successful in this graduate journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you in many ways to learn things that they may not have known along the way that they had to learn the hard way, and maybe gain some additional insight that can help you as you go through your own journey. This week we got another great guest with us. Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: Jonathan Bartles is with us. And Dr. Bartles is an assistant professor of education at the University of Michigan, Flint, and he has his own educational journey that he went on to get his doctorate and now be teaching at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to be able to have him here today and to have him share some of his own experiences. Jonathan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:01:46]: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: It is my pleasure, really excited to have you here today to be able to talk about this journey that you went on. And I, as I said, it is a journey. And I know you did your undergraduate work at East Carolina University. You stayed on for a master's degree there and then went on to get a doctorate. Every person comes to thinking about graduate school in a little bit different way. And I guess for you, I would love to take you back to that point, take you back to those days at East Carolina University where you were getting that Bachelor of Science degree in English Language Arts and Teacher education. And at some point you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on into a graduate career degree, and you made that Choice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:32]: So talk to me about that. What made you choose that graduate education was the next step and that you were going to continue on?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:02:39]: Yeah, absolutely. So it actually wasn't part of my plan. I graduated with my undergraduate and I started teaching. And my plan was to. I'm going to go teach and I'm going to enjoy it. And I loved teaching. The first year of teaching is. We often refer to it as kind of treading water.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:02:51]: It's. You're trying to, you know, just figure everything out in your own classroom. So I was doing that and that was really fulfilling and time consuming. But at the end of that first year, I realized that there's a level of intellectual engagement that happens at a university campus that doesn't happen at like a high school campus. It's not to say I didn't have brilliant colleagues and phenomenal students who were pushing me intellectually, but there was a piece that I felt like that I realized I was missing from being on the university campus. And so I thought about it and kind of looked around and decided to stick with East Carolina University to go back and work on my master's while I was continuing to teach, to get back into some of those academic conversations. And I was coming to get involved with different research projects and things like that. And so it was just a way for me to keep that type of thing going.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:03:35]: And that was really my drive to. That sent me back to grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:39]: Well, you just mentioned that you stayed on at East Carolina University and getting a Master of Arts in Education in English. And I guess one of the questions that I have is taking you back to when you made that decision that you were going to continue on. There are a lot of different Master of Arts programs that are out there, lots of different English programs that are out there. You chose to go back to your undergraduate institution to be able to get that degree. Talk to me about that decision making process for yourself. Maybe what you were looking for in a degree and what made you ultimately choose to stay at the same university for your master's.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:04:16]: There are a ton of options. And within North Carolina, there are phenomenal schools and colleges of education that I could have selected from and still been on that wonderful in state tuition that they had there at that time. I decided to stay with East Carolina because of the faculty. There was one particular faculty within English education that I had already kind of been doing a little bit of work with. And it was somebody that we had a lot of similar interests and connections. And so for me, that was my driving force. For staying with ECU was. His name's Dr.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:04:44]: Todd Finley. Really interesting work that he does with different types of emotional awareness and technology and looking how technology is influencing ed. And I wanted to continue my work with him. And so really it was about really the faculty and the faculty's research interests that kind of made me want to stay there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: Now you stayed at East Carolina, got your degree, and at some point during that point in time, you made a big shift in deciding to completely move outside of teaching at the K12 level to going beyond. And you decided to apply for PhD programs. Talk to me about that decision for yourself. And you ultimately decided to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Again, lots of PhD programs that are out there. So talk to me about that decision making process as well.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:05:33]: Absolutely. Just like going to get my Master's, I wasn't planning to get a PhD. I wasn't planning to go in those directions. But as I was working on my master's, as I mentioned, I was becoming more involved in research projects and I was getting more and more into that. And I really loved teaching. I loved the school I was at. I kept saying, like, I don't know why they're paying me for this. I just feel like I'm coming and playing and being a nerd about literature and writing.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:05:54]: And so for me, teaching was. It was a lot of play. It was just a lot of fun for me. But I remember one morning I got to my classroom early and I was working on one of the research projects I was doing with Dr. Finley. And the bell rang for students to come in. And my thought was, I really wish it was like a work day or something so I can keep working on this research project. And that kind of made me sit back at my desk and go, wait.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:06:18]: Like, I really like these students. I really love what I'm doing, but I'm wishing my students weren't here today so I could do this. And that kind of made me go, okay, I need to. What is my future? What is my path forward? And so at that point, it became that search of, okay, I think I need to go get a doctorate, Because I'm starting to get really into the research. And I was starting to facilitate professional development opportunities for teachers. And so getting into some of that teacher education piece, I was getting really interested in that. So it's kind of seeing, seeing the writing on the wall for my future. As I started to look at schools, I spent probably a year or two looking at different programs.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:06:53]: As I was finishing up my master's and just trying to figure out which is going to be the right program for me. It started out with a national search, and I started looking at. I think I was looking at Stanford, Arizona State, and then Chapel Hill came in as one of my selections to figure out which program was best for me. I worked very closely with Dr. Finley and said, hey, help me figure this out, because I need to figure out where. Where's the right spot? And so he had insights about schools, and he also reached out to his network to say, hey, I've got this student. Here's what they're interested in. What do you think? And so it helped me narrow it down.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:07:26]: And for me, landing at Chapel Hill, it was ultimately, I really liked the work they were doing there. And once again, looking at the faculty that are there, I think, especially for a doctorate program, that is a critical piece of seeing. Are there faculty there who can advance the things that you're curious about? Can they take you to where you want to be? I was interested in technology, but really wanted to look more at the sociological aspects of technology and kind of, what do they mean beyond their immediate usage? And there are some phenomenal faculty at UNC Chapel Hill who are really looking at some of those sociocultural underpinnings of education and approaching technology in that same kind of way that wasn't super technocentric, but much more a sociological approach. And so that's really kind of what led me to Chapel Hill as well as just some guidance advisor. Dr. Finley's wife commented to me one time about my social support network and being connected with groups that I was connected with in North Carolina. And how, from her perspective, she said, this seems like a very important thing for you. Is that something you're willing to just give up and move? And I was like, that's a.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:08:27]: That's a really good point. And so it was a lot of different things that drove me to Chapel Hill. And going from one in state school to the flagship was. Was a little bit of a pain in my ECU Pirate heart to become a Chapel Hill Tar Heel, but it was absolutely worth it and wouldn't have traded it for anything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: With all of those different degrees, there are transitions that you go through. There's transitions from your going from undergrad to your master's degree for your master's degree to your doctorate degree. At each level, there are different expectations, different perspectives, different things that faculty are going to expect of you as a student, as a learner, and as you think back to the graduate school, experiences that you had and you think about those transitions for yourself. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into those different programs, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:09:22]: I think it becomes a staggered piece through my master's program. It was about just kind of really working closely with my advisor in that he very quickly saw where I was going and was starting to tailor things for me to kind of shape the master's degree in a way that was going to help me get to my eventual goals. So I think working closely with him and just kind of going through the process of that master's program was. Was big and really taking advantage of different opportunities that were there with the opportunities to. To research as well as do my own research for my thesis, and then present that both at conferences as well as at different things on campus, just to kind of help, kind of share my work and get my work out there and practice some of that, I think, was really big. And so I was presenting a whole lot and starting to wr pieces and articles in collaboration with Dr. Finley, as well as writing up my thesis work for publication. And so those things, I think, are really important to take advantage of, because I think those are things that are often on the side, but can be a really important piece because it gets you plugged into those larger professional networks and kind of get your name and work out there, which is really important at the doctorate level.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:10:28]: If I thought that my relationship with my advisor was important to my master's, like, that was a great, lovely thing to have that phenomenal relationship with Dr. Finley. Having a good relationship with my advisor through my doctorate program was absolutely critical. And while we didn't always have things as aligned, Dr. Cheryl Mason Bullock is an amazing scholar and was such a phenomenal advisor. And working closely with her and following her guidance on things was really, really important. One of the things that I think, which Cheryl didn't always like because she was very optimistic, and she felt like I brought a realism that it made her a little bit uncomfortable at times. But Dr.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:11:06]: Finley's wife from East Carolina had commented to me about how difficult it was for her to watch Todd go through his doctorate program and just some of the emotional toll that learning at that kind of level can take. And so for me, that was something that constantly played in my mind. And I shared that with Cheryl. And she. I think she's kind of like Mary Poppins, just always positive and practically perfect in every way. And so me saying, like, oh, yeah, like, I'M going to get broken, I'm going to feel down, I'm going to do those things. But that's also nor. And part of this extreme growth that I'm going through in such a short span.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:11:40]: And so for me, keeping those kinds of things in mind were really important that when working on a graduate degree you are going to be pushed, you are going to be stretched to your intellectual limit. And that. That can be really difficult. Growth is always a difficult, painful process. But being able to recognize that that is what's happening. This is hard, this is difficult. I'm having doubts, but that's because I'm growing so much that I'm having these things and that this is a normal thing that. And so for me, that normalized it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:12:09]: Whenever I would have those moments of doubt and go, okay, wait, no, this is just. It's part of the process. It's part of that growth. And I think that was an important thing, at least for me to keep in mind that it otherwise I would just go insular and say I'm just not cut out for this versus this is just part of the process. And so I think that things like that are important. And then also building community with the cohort that I was in my doctorate with, it was a rigorous thing that we were all in together. And so having community within that cohort was really, really important just for social morale and things like that to kind of get through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:44]: You know, one of the other things that comes to mind after hearing you say that is that I think every student that goes into a graduate program, not only do they go through these transitions, but they also go through mindset shifts as it comes to the way in which they learn, ways in which they have to process, et cetera. Talk to me about the mindset shifts that you had to make to be able to successful in graduate school.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:13:10]: I think that for part of it with undergrad, a lot of my. I think we see this with our undergrads as well and that sometimes it's. It's about compliance. Why am I in these classes? Well, because I'm supposed to be. Let me jump the hoop. It started within my master's program. I can still think of times when I definitely was hoop jumping. But then as I was getting to the doctorate program, it very much became about the grade doesn't matter.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:13:31]: Being somebody who gets that spot, it's really hard to say the grade doesn't matter, but really the grade doesn't matter. What's more important is what is my own growth? How am I seeing my work, am I happy with what I'm producing? And if I'm happy with it and it doesn't make an A or whatever the university is using as an equivalent of an A, does that actually matter? When really it's about my own growth and my own journey. As you were saying earlier, it's about, how is this preparing me, what am I getting from it? And that trying to make the most of every opportunity. I had some classmates who would look in some of our courses and kind of go, this is just a waste of time. It's like, okay, if that's your perspective of it, then yes, this will absolutely be a waste of time. But what can you learn from it? I always tell my interns that you can be in someone's classroom who's an amazing teacher and there's a lot to learn there. You could also be in a classroom with someone who's really not a good teacher, and there's a lot to learn there. And so it's about taking those opportunities and making sure that you are capitalizing on it and you are doing what you need to do to get the most out of it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:14:27]: Because at the end of the day, those grades don't matter. But what you've learned and how you've grown is really the biggest piece. So for me, I think that was one of the big things is really getting to the spot of what can I get from this? And I don't really care about the grade. It's really about my own growth. And I think that part of it is also just the recognition of the privilege that it is to be able to attend grad school, whether it's the master's level or at the doctorate level. When you think about global population and Right. How does this put you with an education in the global population, you're among the the elite few who are getting these advanced degrees. And so it's really a privilege and an opportunity that I think needs to be really kind of taken advantage of.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:15:08]: Right. Don't minimize it and treat it as a hoop, but instead that idea, embracing it and really recognizing the value that is there in all the different opportunities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:15]: I appreciate you sharing that. The other thing that I hear from a lot of students is the fact that many students face imposter syndrome as they transition into these type of graduate programs. Talk to me about your own experience and whether you faced imposter syndrome or self doubt during those graduate studies and how did you handle it?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:15:37]: Oh, I face that every day. So for me, once again, like it was that piece where that pragmatic approach that my master's advisor's wife gave me of this is normal. I feel like I don't belong. I was studying alongside some brilliant, brilliant colleagues who even now, like, I look at their work and I'm just blown away by what they're doing. But it'd be really easy to get that I don't belong here. Look at who I'm in class with, who's absolutely brilliant, who's already accomplished so much. But the reality is I was accepted there and selected for that program to come there and do that work because the faculty there saw the value in me, me, and they saw what I can bring. And so it's about making sure that I'm bringing that.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:16:14]: And that idea of, I feel like I don't belong here. I feel like I haven't earned this. Those are very normal feelings that just about everyone has. And so for me, it was that big piece of normalizing it and normalizing the. That internal angst around things that helped me kind of deal with it whenever I would have it, and then whenever I'd get burnt out. My master's program, I was able to do while I worked, taking courses in the evenings, and then in the summers with my doctorate, I was required to do it full time. And so for me, whenever I got to those spaces of being just burnt out and just feeling exhausted and feeling overwhelmed, like I didn't belong, I would just kind of take a moment and sit back and think to myself, okay, like, especially with my doctor program of. My job right now is to read profound things and think deeply about them.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:16:58]: What an amazing luxury. That would always kind of snap me out of the funk that I was in. It's like, wow, this is what my job is right now, is to do this intellectual kind of work. What a. What a privilege. But also recognizing the, yeah, I'm going to feel bad about things some days, and so is everybody else. We're proud. Probably not going to talk about it, because when you have that imposter syndrome feeling, you think it's just you, and so you internalize it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:17:20]: But if everybody is having it now, everyone's just internalizing it, which makes you feel more like, well, nobody else is saying anything. But the reality is every single person in that room, every single person in that class has those feelings of the imposter syndrome and, like, they don't belong and all those. And so I think normalizing that is a really important piece.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:36]: Rewind and hear what Jonathan just said. Because in making sure that you do normalize it, talk about it and find those champions around you, those peers, those friends, those people that you are connecting with and talk about it, put it out on the table and you're gonna find, just like Jonathan said, they are feeling the same way. They're just not talking about it because they feel that they're the only ones that are feeling that way. And that's normal. So talk about it, put it out into the world. You're going to find that it's going to be reflected back and it's going to help you in the end to talk about that. Now, Jonathan, one of the things that is definitely challenging is many times when you're going to graduate school, you're balancing a lot. Many times you are trying to do work, you're doing research, you're trying to keep up relationships, you're balancing school, work, family, personal responsibilities, a lot of different things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: How did you balance all of that while you were going through those graduate programs?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:18:33]: Programs? I don't know. When I was working on my doctorate, that was my full time gig. There were some times that there was other pieces like as I was working on my research and trying to maintain hours of my assistantship that was paying my tuition and you know, healthcare, that was super important. It could be a stretch, it could definitely be some late nights. One of the faculty members I worked with made a comment to me, which in some ways I appreciated. In some ways I kind of was like, oh, wouldn't that be nice? But her comment was, pulling an all nighter is not a badge of honor. It says you're not managing your time well. Which in some ways I kind of appreciate, appreciated hearing that.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:19:06]: But in other ways, sometimes you can't manage your time any better and you have to pull that all nighter to get something done. And so there's that balance which that idea of like, oh, forcing myself to suffer isn't a badge of honor. Like, what do I need to do to maintain my own life, my own sanity and still accomplish What I need to accomplish is a big piece. While I was working on my master's and teaching full time and then taking one or two courses per semester in the evenings. That could be a lot at times, especially as deadlines came up. There was one time that I just was swamped in the semester and had to take a personal day off from my school to just sit down and just grind out work all day to get myself caught back up. But the biggest piece was open communication with the professors that I was working with. And making sure that they knew what was going on.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:19:51]: And if I was running behind on something, being communicative about it proactively, not waiting until it's due or the day after and sending a note. But hey, I'm really trying to hit this deadline that's coming up, but I've got XYZ happening at my school, so I might be a little bit late, if that's okay. And trying to figure out what could be done there is really, really important. So I think that proactive communication is critical for balancing out some of those difficult times and remembering to just take care of yourself. I think that was one of my biggest things, is just that idea of if I am exhausted both physically and intellectually and emotionally, I'm just burnt out and exhausted. I'm not going to be able to work efficiently and I'm not going to produce good work. So while it may seem counterproductive, me taking a couple of hours to take a nap or, or go for a walk is actually going to make my work more efficient and better when I come back to it because I am rested and I'm recharged. And so I think that that's a really big piece in trying to balance things is making sure that you are taking care of yourself because a healthy you is going to do better than a strung out you.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:20:58]: And so I think that's a really important piece to it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:00]: A lot of the learning that happens within your programs happens in the class you have that the knowledge that you're learning in class, but there's also learning that happen happens as you're going through graduate school outside of the classroom for you. As you think about both of the degrees that you received post your bachelor's degree, what was the most valuable thing you learned outside of the classroom during.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:21:22]: Graduate school, I was able to make connections once again, going back to what I was saying about taking advantage of those opportunities. Being a graduate assistant for a professor that I haven't taken any classes with, but there's an opportunity to work with them on some project that's going to maybe buy me a couple cups of coffee, but getting to work with that professor and take that time, you get to learn much more about what all is going on. And all the different possibilities are. A lot of times we go into degrees and we may have a kind of very narrow view of what is the outcome from this degree. Where is this going to take me? And so getting more exposure to different perspectives, different opportunities is really, really important for me. Getting out into the conferences was Huge. And spending time at national conferences and getting to know other people I think was one of the most important pieces for me. And learning like that kind of conference networking stuff that as an introvert exhausts me to no end.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:22:16]: But it's also so much value in getting to know that larger professional community outside of your own institution to see what all is there, what all they are doing and learn from them. And also if you're, you know, working on a doctorate, learning the ins and outs of places like higher ed. Higher ed is a complex place. And so being involved in different things on campus is really important because no matter what kind of degree you're working on, you're going into a work environment that's going to be complex. And so the more engagement and the more diverse perspectives you can take on within that arena, the more well rounded you're going to be in your own work in there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: I appreciate you sharing that as well. As you think back to this experience that you went through, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started in graduate school as you think back now?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:23:04]: That's a, that's a really good question that I feel like can sometimes be hard to answer because there's some things that I was pre warned about. The emotional toll. I think that was a very important piece for me. Thinking about some of the, the different opportunities and being more prepared to engage in the opportunities I think is something that, that I needed and to think about what does that work look like within the profession. I know when I started presenting at conferences, my first presentation, I was sweating BU and just a mess until we got about halfway through it and my co presenter threw out a joke and I was kind of like, oh wait, this isn't, this can be fun and like I can play and I can joke around while doing this and not just be up here in a suit and really stiff. And so I think that getting to see some of that and getting to see where is the fun within the profession, where is the fun within the work and trying to make sure that you can see that all the time is a really important piece that even when there's that super tedious assignment, I feel like the research methods course courses that I teach now, students just dread because a research methodology textbook is essentially a glorified dictionary that we're working through. But helping students to see where's the fun in it? Where can you enjoy this? Where can you also take pieces and apply it within your work right now? So I think that finding ways to do that earlier in my graduate career would have been better. And some of those courses in my masters that I mentioned, like, I still kind of approached as a hoop jump, I could have and should have gotten more out of those.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:24:33]: I should have engaged with that a little bit more to see where is the benefit. And for me, one of my things is always, where's the fun? Like, how can I engage this? How can I entertain myself with this? How can I bring this into my own professional practice? I think that'd be an important thing to take on from the very beginning, if you can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]: So finally, and this may be kind of a little bit of an add on to what you were just talking about. As you look back and think back to the. Your graduate education, and you think about students that are thinking about graduate education for themselves, whether it be in education or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer them as they consider graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:25:09]: The first question I always ask my students when they ask me about, you know, if they should pursue a master's or if they should pursue a doctorate, is, why, why do you want to do this? What is it that you're wanting to accomplish that this is going to lead you to? Sometimes it's, well, I want the pay bump that comes with it. Okay, well, let's try to think a little bit more broadly about that. Well, that pay bump is a very important thing. I don't want to minimize that. What can we get out of it? How can we make sure that it's beneficial for you beyond that financial piece? And so I think that that really is the biggest thing, because once you identify am I doing this? That then gives you something to anchor things to. And so for those courses that you look at and you go, well, this is just a hoop jump. Okay, but why are you doing it? Why are you doing this overall program? Why are you taking that course? How does that course contribute to this overall program? And therefore, how does it contribute to your goal and what you're trying to accomplish? And I think that, like, once you have that. That reason, once you have that clear answer to why am I doing this? That gives you that anchorage that is going to pull all the pieces together and give you that kind of motivation, that kind of drive to accomplish whatever it is you need to accomplish for your own learning in that space, because you have a reason.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:26:20]: It's not, well, I'm doing this because it's an assignment. It's, well, I'm doing this because this is leading to X for me. This is helping me get to where I want to be. And I think having that clear intrinsic motivation clearly narrated out is really important to provide that kind of work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:35]: Well, Jonathan, I just want to say thank you you thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's a journey that we all continue on as we continue to learn and to grow ourselves and we continue to work with others and pass that learning on. And I always appreciate being able to have faculty and others on to be able to share that. So I thank you for doing that today, for sharing with others, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:26:59]: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you thinking about graduate school, or perhaps already navigating its hills and valleys? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School is a must-listen for anyone considering this transformative step. Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Amanda Seney, the Writing Center Academic Program Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint, who shares her unique path through higher education and the invaluable lessons learned along the way.

Amanda's story is one of perseverance, growth, and self-discovery. After a significant gap between starting and finishing her undergraduate studies, Amanda returned to academia more determined than ever. She didn't just finish her degree—she flourished, embracing the experience by double-majoring and then moving seamlessly into a graduate program. For Amanda, the decision to pursue graduate studies wasn't just about credentials; it was about personal growth and opening new doors, even when the destination was unknown.

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school, Amanda noticed a significant shift in expectations—not just from instructors, but from herself. She discusses the journey from following directions to taking initiative, where research projects became opportunities for self-direction and exploration. Amanda shares how this process required greater personal accountability, self-advocacy, and time management—skills that don't just make for successful students, but for resilient professionals.

A recurring theme in Amanda's reflection is the presence of "imposter syndrome" and self-doubt—a feeling familiar to almost every grad student. Her advice? Lean on support systems, whether it's faculty, peers, or campus resources. Amanda credits her relationships with instructors and the collaborative atmosphere at UM-Flint as key to overcoming her doubts and achieving her goals. For non-traditional students balancing family, work, and school, Amanda is candid about the struggles of finding balance and sets realistic expectations: it's not about perfection, but doing your best with the support you have.

Perhaps most eye-opening is Amanda's emphasis on the importance of revision in graduate-level writing, advocating for multiple drafts and peer feedback. She reminds us that writing well is a process—and seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

As Amanda's story reveals, graduate school is not just an academic pursuit, but a journey of self-discovery, resilience, and community. If you're pondering this path, want practical tips, or just need encouragement, tune in to this enlightening episode. Amanda's journey isn't just inspiring—it's a roadmap for anyone aspiring to thrive in grad school.

Take a listen and equip yourself for your own victorious journey in graduate school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, to be able to learn from others in their experiences to help you in the journey that you're on. It truly is a journey because no matter where you are, there are things that you can do along the path to be able to prepare you, as well as to help you to find success as you go through that experience for yourself. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk about the graduate school journey that they had for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: Things that worked, things that maybe didn't work, things that they learned along the way that can give you some tools for your own toolbox and help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest. Amanda Senti is with us today. And Amanda is the Writing Center Academic Program Specialist at the University of Michigan, Flint. She works with graduate students on writing and helps them with the journey into being a graduate school writer. Because it is different. It is different in that journey from undergrad to grad, there are different expectations. Not only expectations from faculty, but expectations you have to put on yourself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: And Amanda is here to help students along that pathway. And she learned a lot of the things that she's helping students with in her own journey. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experience and to have her share some of those today. Amanda, thanks so much for being here today.

Amanda Seney [00:01:58]: Well, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Now, I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey, you made a choice. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on. You wanted to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and tell me more about that decision and why you made that decision to continue your education.

Amanda Seney [00:02:23]: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So that is kind of a long story. I guess I should say that I started undergrad right after high school, but I had also gotten married at the same time. And my husband was in the military. We were out of state. There was a lot going on.

Amanda Seney [00:02:35]: And then we had kids, and I was not able to finish my undergrad at that time. And so I had a very long gap in between when I first started and then when I came back to finish. It was about 14 years before I came back to U of M to finish my undergrad. So then I started, and I think I had something like 90 some credits that I. I brought with me. I transferred in. And so I really could have finished fairly quickly. But I was so much enjoying the undergraduate experience and I was learning so much about myself and just about the world in general that I thought, well, okay, while I'm here, I also think, I think I'll do a double major because I'm not done with this undergrad stuff yet.

Amanda Seney [00:03:13]: And so I decided, okay, I'm going to do a double major. And so that extended my time a little bit. And I think it ended up being about two and a half years to finish my undergrad. But then I still just didn't feel like I was done because I was growing so much, just so much as an individual, as a member of society, as a. As an employee that I wasn't ready to be done yet. And I wanted to see what I could do at a graduate level. And so I just decided to make that kind of seamless transition at the time since I was kind of in the swing of school anyway at that point. So that was why I decided to keep going.

Amanda Seney [00:03:43]: And I just thought it would open more doors for me. I didn't know what those doors were going to be, but I wanted to see where it would go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:49]: So you went to that undergraduate degree. You made the decision to go to graduate school. As a lot of students do, they have to figure out for themselves what's the best program, program. Where should I go? You made a decision to stay at the University of Michigan Flint to go into a graduate program in English language and literature and continue your education there. Talk to me about that process for yourself and that decision for yourself. And what made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Amanda Seney [00:04:18]: Well, partly it was. I just really like the university. For one thing. I know that we have so many support system, and at that point I was familiar with so many of the resources. I also really liked the campus job that I had, which was working at the writing center. And I knew I could continue doing that because it is a great place and I love it and I wanted to be able to stay there. So that was part of the draw for the University of Michigan. I mean, honestly, goodness, it's just the quality of instruction is so high because I have been in other places, and they were also very good.

Amanda Seney [00:04:45]: But I really like what I had seen here. I liked that I knew they were going to be smaller class sizes so that I could continue those relationships that I had built with instructors. There was just so much with that now. Why the English language and literature in particular? I knew I wanted something in the humanities because I figured that's just what's close to my heart, and that's where I wanted to go, I guess. And I was also definitely working on creative writing at the time. And so that English language and literature gave me a lot more opportunity to do creative projects, which was important to me at that time, period.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: So every student that goes to graduate school has to make a transition. I mentioned at the beginning that there's transition in expectations and how you're taught, but also there's transitions in how you have to write, how you have to think, how you have to process. There's a lot of different ways of learning that happens as you go into graduate school and go through graduate school. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. Because you found success, you got through the degree, you went through that process. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Amanda Seney [00:05:52]: I think one of the big things was it was a mental transition for me because in undergrad, you're used to doing what other people are telling you to do in order to get the degree. And like you, the instructor tells you what they want to see and you do that. And there is a lot of that in graduate school, too, but there's a lot more also of, well, you tell me what you want to do. I felt like. And so those research projects became very much, well, what are you interested in? And it was a challenge for me at the time to kind of get into that mindset of, oh, no, this is. I am making these decisions, and like, this is on me. And whatever that decision is, it's not good or bad or whatever. It's just whatever I decide, that's the direction we're going.

Amanda Seney [00:06:31]: So there was that level of. I don't even know what you call it, like a personal accountability or you're deciding for yourself. You're very much more in charge of a lot more aspects of it. So there was that. There was also. I mean, one of the big transitions for me was that projects got bigger. I was very used to being able to do things at the last minute, which is what you end up doing as Many of the non traditional students know, right, there's not a lot of time and so things get pushed back and other things take priority often. And I could not do that the way that I had been used to doing.

Amanda Seney [00:07:00]: And so that was a transition to try and make a better job of balancing things out and leaving myself time to do the things that needed to get done. And then there was also a little bit more of a transition to being able to advocate more for myself on those times when life really did get in the way and I could not get the things done to being able to go to the instructor and say, hey, I'm really sorry, but this is the situation. Is there a way we can work together and still make this thing happen? So that level of self advocacy and then whether they said yes or no, you know, that wasn't the point. It was really just being able to go to them, one professional, one adult to another, and say, hey, what can we do here? I think that was a big one to be able to look at the instructors not as this authority figure from on high necessarily, but as someone who we are working towards being in a professional relationship in a sense, like I am going into this scholarly community and I would like to be a co worker in a sense rather than this authority situation. And there's a lot more collaboration available in those areas.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:57]: A lot of students have told me that they face imposter syndrome as they go through that graduate school journey, that they have to hit it face on and they have to figure out for themselves, how do I deal with not only that imposter syndrome of saying, am I good enough? Should I be here? But also there's self doubt as you go through that program that you have to tackle as well. Talk to me about that for yourself and how that showed up for you in your own graduate study and how did you handle it?

Amanda Seney [00:08:31]: Oh, goodness, 100% okay. Wow. I guess part of that was like I was used to dealing that with that from undergrad because again, because there was such a big gap between when I started and when I went back. And so I was very much a non traditional student. I'm a first generation student. My people don't do this. I really didn't know what to expect. And that was bad enough at undergrad, but then we went into the graduate level and we have like no level of familiarity with what any of this looks like.

Amanda Seney [00:08:56]: So that was very intimidating. So how did I deal with that? So again, as I mentioned, right, because I had been in undergrad and because I was trying to use the resources available to me and the class sizes and all that. That I did have pretty solid relationships with several instructors who were always very, very encouraging and were willing to listen to me and just they always believed more in me and my abilities than what I believed in me and my abilities. And they were just excellent supports for that and for. Even when I didn't necessarily feel like I was, well, I didn't know what I was doing, but when I really felt like I didn't know what I was doing, they were there to be like, oh no, you're good, everybody feels this way and just keep going and you're going to be fine. So there was that, I guess so reaching out to the people around me as much as possible. I was also doing the graduate work. Some of this was still in like post Covid and so a lot of the classes were online.

Amanda Seney [00:09:45]: I didn't have a lot of the face to face connections with other students. That would have been nice. I imagine if you have a cohort like I know a lot of the programs do, that would have been a massive way to deal with that, to be able to talk it through with people going through the same thing, literally the same thing with you at the same time. But other than that, it was really just trusting the process and going forward and taking those pieces of ownership where I could and being able to step back and say, you know what, I did do a really good job on that. That was a pretty cool thing. Look at me, maybe I am in the right place. A lot of self forgiveness had to happen in some ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:19]: Now you also mentioned you were married, you had kids, you were balancing a lot of different things as you were going not only through the undergraduate work, but also as you continued on through that graduate degree. Talk to me about balance. How did you balance school, work, family, other responsibilities while in graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:10:40]: Largely I did it poorly, I would say. Now I was in a sit where my kids were a little older, so they were able to do a lot of things on their own. They didn't need as much from me. I can't imagine doing this with young children. Like you would have to be really truly on the ball with a lot of things. And that impresses me so much. Yeah. So those of you out there doing that, you are awesome.

Amanda Seney [00:11:01]: I mean, I did have a lot of support. My husband was very supportive. So he would pick up some slack where he could and then the kids were very much on board with now this is okay, Mom's got to go do this Right now. So we're going to leave her alone for now and then we'll come back later and we'll talk and do this right. Tried to carve out those times of, yes, I am available, yes, I am part of your life, but for this piece of time, no, I am not. And just to set some of those boundaries, I think was where we did. And then also so far as balance, like being able to step back and say, okay, maybe we don't take so many credits this time because there's been so much going on, looking at the realities of family life and other work life and things like that, and saying it's time to just take a little bit of a breather.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: You definitely need those breathers every once in a while. And having someone that can support you along the way is really important. Having those support systems in place is so important. Did you find as you were going through your graduate experience that you were able to build relationships with faculty or peers that were especially impactful in supporting you in this journey yourself? And if so, how were they supportive? And what did you learn about building those relationships that could help others in thinking about the support systems that they need?

Amanda Seney [00:12:18]: I think I already mentioned that I did have pretty close relationships with several instructors because I had taken so many of their classes at that point. So how were those supportive at that point? Because we had the relationship, like they knew my situation and I knew some of their situation and we kind of knew each other's interests even, right? So they could be like, hey, I was thinking this thing, what do you think? I ended up on a separate project, that it was a grant funded project actually, because of a relationship that I had with another professor. And she was like, hey, here's some thoughts I have on this thing. Would you be interested in being part of this? And I said, yeah, that sounds awesome. So that was like, that was super cool just being. They were so supportive of whatever my interest was because we had that relationship. And so we were willing to be like, well, this is not exactly where I thought that project was going to go. But yeah, okay, let's see where it goes.

Amanda Seney [00:13:05]: Because I trusted their advice and they trusted where I was at. So there was that in a lot of ways. And then also when I did need flexibility, could I have a couple extra days for this due date? You know, I'll get it to you before you start your grading on Monday, because I know that you start your grading on Monday. Then they were more likely to be like, yeah, okay, that's, you know, get it to me by this time, and then that'll be fine. So there was a lot of that with peers. I would say, yes, I did. And that was partly because we were taking some of the same classes together. And then we got, we did get to have some of that.

Amanda Seney [00:13:33]: Not a cohort relationship, I don't think, but some of that talking about the different things we've been reading and talking about those things and everybody feeling the imposter syndrome and being able to say, do you feel this? Yes, yes, I do. Oh, good. It's not just me, you know, just a lot of the. It's not just me and being able to geek out on ridiculous literature things. We just had a lot of fun. So being able to find somebody where it's. You can enjoy what you're going through I think is hugely important. How to go about that.

Amanda Seney [00:14:01]: I think I stumbled into most of mine. I will be honest, I'm not like a naturally social person. And so it's more of a. They probably pursued me more than I did them. I had to learn to trust a lot of people in ways that I hadn't been comfortable with. And that, I mean, that was a good thing, right? So being discerning, but being able to open up to, oh, this person really does think I'm kind of okay. And like, we really are enjoying the same things. And so that was, for me, that's how that happened.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:28]: I guess in thinking about what you have said, every person learns quite a bit inside the classroom. But as you go through a graduate degree, you're learning both in class and outside of the class, learning about not only the field, but learning about yourself, learning a lot of other skills along the way that are preparing you for the next step. What would you say was the most valuable thing you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:14:53]: I think for me, a lot of the growth that I experienced was very much in a professional kind of setting. And so it was just growing in confidence, I think, and saying, oh, no, this skill set that I have is a legitimate skill set and it's valuable and I can use it in these ways and I can have this responsibility that I didn't think I'd ever have. And I can work with people in a way that I didn't think I'd be able to do. So it was really a self discovery of a lot of things that I was capable of that I would not have guessed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: I guess now I mentioned the fact that you're working with graduate students on writing now, and I guess I would be Remiss to not have you talk a little bit about some of the things that you've seen with students as they come into graduate school and as they may struggle with that transition in and through graduate school in regards to their writing, what are some of the biggest challenges, stumbling blocks, things that people may not be aware of, that they may need to work on as they make that transition into graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:15:58]: I think, and this was for me too, and this is definitely something that I see with other writers making that transition. But in my opinion, and for the majority of writers, revision is not something that most of us have done much of at the undergraduate level. And it becomes so crucial when you are at the graduate level to commit to doing multiple layers of revision of whatever you're writing. The one done just doesn't work anymore because what you're working on is so much more complex and in depth. And so, I mean, being able and being willing to put in the time to block out that time to say, okay, my, my rough draft needs to be done on this day so that I have another two days to do a revision, so that I have another two days after that to go back and look at it again and again and again and to get the feedback, the peer feedback is another big one, I think, from people that are in the same situation are and are knowing the things that you're knowing. Right. To. To do more peer feedback, revision and feed.

Amanda Seney [00:16:53]: Yes. Get as many eyes on it as you can and it gets super cringey and it feels bad, but you get used to it and it's so, so useful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Definitely don't be afraid to ask for help and go to that writing center that your campus may have. Go to other people to ask for assistance. Have some of your peers review. There's lots of ways in which you can do that. So definitely listen to what Amanda's saying and take advantage of that. Don't think that you have to be that expert coming in, because most students are not going to be an expert coming in. They are going to need some work along the way to become better. Even if you are a strong writer already, there's going to be a transition process for yourself in learning more about your own writing and what is expected in your program that may be different from what you have experienced in the past and will experience as you go into graduate school yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: Now, as you think back to your own graduate school experience, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:17:55]: I think one thing that would have been helpful, maybe somebody did tell me this, I don't know, would just have been that, like grad school is not the end of imposter syndrome, for one thing, it's, it's a long process. At least it is for me. And so when you, when you hit that moment of yes, I've graduated, and then you look around and say, now what? There's still a lot of adjustments that happen after that point too, I think is it can be anticlimactic and it shouldn't be celebrate that moment. But then there is still the what do I do now? So that was definitely a thing, I think. And then I think a lot of what I did learn in graduate school, it took me time, once I was done, to really digest it and let it all percolate and for it to settle in ways that I understood later, looking back at it. And so I think if somebody had just said, hey, this isn't going to make all the sense right now, but in a couple of years when you've had time to sit with this, like, it's all gonna, it's all gonna fit together in ways you didn't see coming, that might have been nice to know too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:52]: And finally, again, as you think back and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school, thinking about transitioning into graduate school, going through graduate school, what are some other tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Amanda Seney [00:19:08]: Definitely a number one. Be aware of the resources that are out there for you because there are so many people in the background who are on your side and want you to succeed. And there are so many things that you have access to that you don't necessarily know about unless you go and look for it. This is why the orientations are so important. This is why being familiar with the websites are so important. There's so much out there and it will make the journey so much easier and smoother if you can use those supports. I think that's a huge one. And I think being realistic about yourself and your situation, especially because many of our graduate students are again, the non traditional.

Amanda Seney [00:19:44]: You're living with families, you have jobs, and to just be cognizant of the realities of wherever you're at and to be okay with that and to work within that framework if you need to. Not everybody can handle doing full time. I know I could not. And that is an okay thing. There are, there are things to think about and to be realistic about. I think to just be kind to yourself where you can, because it is, it's a challenge. But it's doable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:07]: Well, Amanda, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing the experiences that you had, the advice that you've given, and I wish you all the best.

Amanda Seney [00:20:18]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school or already planning your path forward? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, is a must-listen for anyone pondering the next academic step. This week's guest, Scott Roy—Registrar at the University of Michigan-Flint and graduate of both UM-Flint (undergraduate) and Eastern Michigan University (graduate)—shares a candid, relatable perspective on what it takes to succeed in graduate school and beyond.

The Many Paths to Graduate School

Scott's journey reminds us that there's no single route to grad school. Originally envisioning a law career, he pivoted to history after discovering his passion. This decision wasn't made lightly; he evaluated the available programs in Michigan, taking into account not only program content but also logistical factors like proximity to family and program structure. Scott's story highlights how practical considerations (such as avoiding an extensive thesis in favor of a final exam) and personal life (being close to his partner) can shape academic choices.

Graduate School Is a Different Beast

One of the strongest themes in the episode is the significant jump in academic rigor and expectations at the graduate level. Scott describes being "a deer in the headlights" during his first semester—faced with daunting reading lists and heavier workloads, often while juggling a job. His advice? Go in prepared for a step up in both self-discipline and time management. The episode offers heartfelt reassurance that feeling overwhelmed is normal, and that students do eventually adapt and find their rhythm.

Finding Balance and the Importance of Support

Scott is candid about the challenges of balancing work, school, and personal relationships—and about sometimes falling short. He urges prospective grad students to carve out space for self-care, mental health, and social connection. Loneliness can be a reality, especially with night classes and busy schedules, but joining campus organizations and building relationships with peers and professors can make the journey less isolating.

Skills for Life, Not Just for a Job Description

Even though Scott ultimately found his career path outside of museums and history, he credits his graduate studies with teaching him valuable skills—like research, problem solving, and personal growth—that enhanced his qualifications and shaped his perspective. It's a reminder that grad school is about much more than a degree.

Whether you're just thinking about grad school or already on your way, this episode is packed with wisdom, encouragement, and practical advice. Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" to hear Scott's full story and gather the fuel you need for your own journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a journey for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Whether you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about whether grad school is right for you, or you are applying right now, or maybe you've already applied and gotten accepted, There are many different places in this journey where you can do things to make the experience even easier. And then as you get into graduate school, there are things that you can do to be able to make yourself even more successful. That's what this podcast is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you to allow for you an opportunity to be able to gain some tools for your own toolbox, but also allow for you to be able to prepare yourself a little bit better for the graduate school journey that you're on and that you will be on in the future. This week we've got another great guest. Scott Roy is with us today, and Scott works at the University of Michigan, Flint in the office of the Registrar. And Scott did his undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and then he went off and got a graduate degree in history at Eastern Michigan University. We're going to be talking about his own educational journey and allowing you to learn a little bit more from him.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Scott, thanks so much for being here today.

Scott Roy [00:02:04]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to talk to you. I mentioned the fact that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey, going through your undergraduate work, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to continue your education. Take me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head as you figured out for yourself that graduate school was the next step.

Scott Roy [00:02:35]: So I actually started my undergraduate degree not knowing what I wanted to do. I went into my Undergraduate thinking. I was going to go to law school. And then as I was choosing a major for my bachelor's degree, my advisor had recommended either English or history because he said a lot of law students chose those as their majors. So I went with history because that's the topic that I've always enjoyed. My family and I, we've always visited battlefields on vacation. We were Civil War reenactors. So history was just my thing.

Scott Roy [00:03:05]: So I selected history. And about maybe two years or so into my degree, I decided that I didn't really want to be a lawyer. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do. I did actually decide that I wanted to do something in the history field. So I went to grad school with the idea of either becoming a professor or doing something in museums. So when I got to be about a junior, I started looking at different schools. There were only four schools in the state of Michigan that had history programs at the graduate level. So I was between Central Michigan University and Eastern.

Scott Roy [00:03:40]: I ended up going down to Eastern. And then actually when I got to Eastern, I found out really that my niche was going into museums. So when I was at Eastern, my degree was in. But I also got a graduate certificate in Cultural Museum Studies. During that time, I was an intern down at the Historical Museum down in Monroe. And I got to do a lot of cool things down there. I got to lead tours, and I got to create different exhibits, do a lot of the curatorship at the museum there. And I realized that was kind of what I wanted to do with my life.

Scott Roy [00:04:13]: So I stayed through graduate school, went through, got my master's, spent a couple years actually after graduate school trying to find a job and in the history field. And so I started out, right out of grad school. I started working at apartments. I was actually a leasing consultant leasing apartments. I did end up getting a job in a museum for about four years up in Frankenmuth. There's a military museum that I was a curator at. And then eventually, once I kind of settled down and I started to have kids and have a family, decided that I needed a more stable job. That's one thing I found actually, in my field is that museum jobs aren't always very stable.

Scott Roy [00:04:51]: They depend on millages and grants and different fundraising. And so I decided at that point that I needed to find something more stable. That's how I ended up at U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: So, Scott, you mentioned the fact that you looked at a number of different schools when you were deciding on where you wanted to go to graduate school and you ultimately chose to go to Eastern Michigan University. Bring me back to that point. And when you were looking at different schools, what were you looking for and what made Eastern the right fit for you?

Scott Roy [00:05:19]: So, so I originally was planning on going to U of M Flint actually for grad school because that's where I had gone for my undergrad. But like I said before, there were only four schools in the state that had a history degree and I knew that's what I wanted to pursue. U of M, Ann Arbor was an option. I didn't really look a whole lot at that. Part of the reason was because that they required 100 page thesis. I realized that I didn't want to necessarily get my doctorate degree. And those thesis tracks were more for students that were pursuing a doctorate. Eastern and Central had options where rather than writing the thesis, you could take an exam.

Scott Roy [00:05:56]: And so I chose Eastern partly because you could take the exam, but also because my wife at the time, she was my girlfriend, but we ended up getting engaged. She got a job down in Metro Detroit. So if I was up at Central, I was going to be several hours away. Being down at Eastern, I could be closer to her. So that was an easy choice for me and I'm glad that I chose the route that I did. So Eastern, I ended up taking a four hour exam. They gave me a list of 40 books during my last semester and I had to go through and basically memorize the arguments made in these books. And then I had to do a four hour exam about a historiography on it.

Scott Roy [00:06:32]: So that's, that's why I chose Eastern was because I absolutely hate writing. The thought of writing 100 pages sounded nauseating to me. So I decided I wanted to do the four hour exam based on the books.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:43]: You know, everyone that makes a transition into graduate school has to go through, as I mentioned, a transition. There is a difference in the way that you're educated at the undergraduate level. And then when you get to the graduate level, you have to kind of figure that out for yourself. Talk to me about that transition for you. When you went from undergrad into grad school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And then what did you have to do to maintain that success as you continued throughout your graduate school experience?

Scott Roy [00:07:19]: So one thing that I will definitely tell you is that graduate school is a totally different beast than undergraduate school. Undergraduate school, you might have an assignment where you have to write five or 10 page paper and you might have a couple weeks. When I went into graduate school, I might have a class on Tuesday and I was expected to read a four or five hundred page book by like Thursday and have a paper done on it. So I remember my first semester of graduate school. I was like a deer in the headlights. The amount of work was totally different than what I had expected and that took a lot of getting used to. And on top of that, most graduate students, myself included, you have jobs as well. So I was working at the museum in Monroe part time, about 30 hours a week.

Scott Roy [00:08:01]: So the workload itself was a lot more intense and that took some getting used to. The other things that I really had to adapt to was actually was loneliness. So being a grad student, I actually had an apartment on campus. It was just a studio apartment. I was by myself. I decided I didn't want to have a roommate because I wanted to be able to focus on studying. And looking back on that, I may have done that differently. One thing that I've found is a lot of graduate students, you don't see them on campus except for at night.

Scott Roy [00:08:31]: Most of them have day jobs. I had a lot of classes with teachers who were taking night classes. So you didn't necessarily build the friendships that I built as an undergraduate. A lot of the students who were in class, they came from work, they went to their class and then they went home because it was 9 o' clock at night. So you didn't necessarily have the camaraderie that you had as an undergraduate. So I struggled with that to an extent. The fact that sometimes it could be a little bit lonely being in a city an hour from home, not necessarily knowing a lot of people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:00]: On a personal level, sometimes students tell me that they face imposter syndrome as they go through graduate school. There's a feeling that they get into a program and they, they don't feel like they know everything that they should know or that they're prepared in the way that they need to be prepared. Did you ever feel that way? Did you ever feel and face that imposter syndrome or self doubt for yourself in graduate studies? And if so, how did you handle it?

Scott Roy [00:09:26]: I guess to an extent, I've always been a good student as an undergraduate, so I wasn't necessarily worried about not being successful. But again, like I said, the workload the first semester, I didn't know how I was going to get through it. But then you start to realize, hey, you know what, I can do this. And you start to communicate with other students. In your class and they're able to help guide you through things and give you advice on how to be successful. And I mean, if you ever have problems, talk to the instructors. That's one thing I've found is a lot of times the instructors are more than willing to reach out to you because they know that you're a good student. Typically, if you're in graduate school, you have what it takes to succeed.

Scott Roy [00:10:00]: Your professors know that you're a hard worker, otherwise you wouldn't be there. So I would say that if you ever have an issue to reach out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: To them, every student has to find their path for themselves. They have to figure out for themselves how to balance all of the different hats that they wear, whether it's your academic hat, that hat that you wear when you're working. As you mentioned that you had that part time job that you were working down at the museum, you have your personal relationships, your friends, et cetera. So talk to me about balance and what did you have to do to be able to balance all of those competing needs of others and needs for yourself in regards to what you had signed up to do in graduate school? And how did you handle that for yourself? How did you balance that for yourself?

Scott Roy [00:10:48]: So actually one thing I wish I would have done better is learn a little bit more balance in graduate school. So I felt wore out by the end of it. I would get up sometimes, I had to be at work by 8:30 and where I worked was about almost an hour drive from the campus. So I had to get up pretty early to do that. And then I wouldn't get home sometimes till, you know, five or six o' clock and then I'd be doing homework. So it didn't come encompassed a lot of your life. I would make sure that I saw my girlfriend usually on the weekends. And then beyond that, one thing I wish I had done a better job of, so this is my advice to you, is make sure that you take the time to, I guess, take care of yourself, both mentally and physically.

Scott Roy [00:11:27]: One thing I found in grad school is I ended up gaining like 30 or 40 pounds by the time I was done with grad school. And a lot of it was on me. I just didn't have the drive anymore to make sure I got to the fitness center. It's very hard to do when you're working and you're studying and you've been at it all day to find the time to make sure that you go to the rec center and make sure that you do the exercises and stuff that you need. I wish I had spent more time doing that. But beyond that, I guess you just kind of struggle through it for a little bit and then you find yourself out on the other side in a couple of years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: I know the work that you're doing right now may not be in the museum field, it may not be in the history field, but you're doing great work here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And as you go through graduate school, it does change some of the ways that you think, process, consider things. How do you find that graduate school changed the way that you think or work or approach problems or life in general?

Scott Roy [00:12:23]: So even though I'm not in my field, a lot of the skills that I learned in graduate school are skills that I've been able to take with me into the workplace. A big one for me, I would say being a history major, I know how to research. I mean, if you give me a topic, I can usually find the answer. I know what resources to look into, and that's been very helpful in my day to day activities at the workplace. Beyond that, I do think having my master's degree actually helped me get my job. So even though my job is not in the history field, working on a college campus is pretty hard to get into. And I think the fact that I had a master's degree helped set me apart from other candidates and helped give me that interview. So even though I'm not working in my field, I do think that having the graduate degree was important.

Scott Roy [00:13:07]: And then it also, I guess, kind of helped me decide what things are important and my life. So, I mean, I could work in a museum. If I went and lived down in metro Detroit, I could get a job at the Henry Ford or somewhere down there. But I decided that, you know, I wanted to be close to my family. My family lives in the Genesee county area. This is where I've always been since I grew up. When I was a kid, I wanted my kids to know their grandparents and to know their family. So I think graduate school helped me mature in that aspect and kind of figure out what was important to me in life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: So as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Scott Roy [00:13:52]: First off, be prepared for the increase in the workload. I would say, to make sure that you have a good support system. Make sure that you take time to be involved in activities on campus. There were a couple of clubs that I joined just so that I got to know some people. I would recommend that just finding different ways to be involved so that you do have a good graduate experience and do get to know other people on the campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:14]: Well Scott, I just want to say thanks. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and I truly wish you all the best.

Scott Roy [00:14:21]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school, currently enrolled, or maybe just accepted? No matter where you are in your academic journey, the transition into graduate studies is filled with both challenges and opportunities. That's the theme at the heart of this week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," where Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Julie Snyder, the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint, to unpack her path from bachelor's to master's to earning a PhD.

Changing Directions and Embracing New Opportunities

Dr. Snyder's story is a powerful reminder that it's okay to change direction. Originally planning to attend law school, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs thanks to a mentor's guidance—even at the last minute. Her advice for those making similar choices is simple and clear: don't get boxed in by traditional timelines or expectations. Sometimes, taking the road less traveled leads to the most fulfilling outcomes.

Transition and Mindset Shifts in Graduate School

One of the main themes discussed is the significant mindset shift required in graduate studies. The workload becomes more rigorous and independent. Impostor syndrome is real, especially when it feels like you're surrounded by "geniuses"—but, as Dr. Snyder notes, hard work, not innate brilliance, is the ultimate key to success. She emphasizes acknowledging your struggles and leaning on your peers, admitting you can't (and shouldn't) do it all alone.

The Power of Mentorship and Peer Support

Mentorship and support systems are fundamental. Dr. Snyder credits mentors with helping her identify opportunities—including her eventual career pivot—and prioritize demands when all tasks seem equally urgent. She also stresses the importance of relying on your peers, sharing resources, and working together, especially when preparing for comprehensive exams or tackling difficult coursework.

Balancing Life, Work, and Academics

Dr. Snyder also addresses the balancing act required in grad school: managing coursework, work obligations, family, friends, and personal well-being. It's not easy, but she assures listeners it's possible by knowing your priorities, using time management strategies, and, crucially, not losing sight of what you love outside of academics.

Final Thoughts

If you're seeking inspiration and practical advice for your graduate journey, this episode is packed with candid stories and actionable insights. Dr. Snyder's honesty about the ups and downs, her encouragement to pursue opportunities, and her message that "it is all doable" make this a must-listen for any current or aspiring grad student.

Ready for more wisdom, support, and real talk about surviving and thriving in grad school? Be sure to tune in to this episode of "Victors in Grad School," and join the ongoing conversation about success, support, and self-discovery in graduate education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey. As you are considering graduate school, you're looking at graduate school. Maybe you've applied and you're and gotten accepted. Maybe you're getting ready to start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:30]: No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey. Because no matter if you are at the very beginning just starting to think about it, you're in graduate school or maybe you see that light at the end of the tunnel, there are things that you can do all the way through this journey to be able to prepare yourself and to help yourself be more successful in the journey itself. That's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk with you, to work with you as you are going through this journey, to be able to provide you with some, I'm going to call them, tools for your toolbox to help you to think about things in a little bit different way. We do that by introducing you to people that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, and they have had the opportunity to be able to learn some things along the way. Maybe positive, maybe negative, you never know. But we.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]: But today we got another great guest. Dr. Julie Snyder is with with us today. And Dr. Snyder is the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And Julie has three different degrees. So we're going to be talking about the journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree to that master's, that doctorate, and kind of learning along the way. So I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Julie, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:01:41]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor just to have the opportunity to share life experiences with graduate students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to talk to you as well. And I guess first and foremost, what I'd love to do is be able to go back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Duquesne University, and during that experience, I'm guessing based on the fact that you got a bachelor's in political science and then knowing what you got your master's degree in, I'm guessing you got a little involved in that undergraduate experience and you made A choice to go on and get a master's degree in student affairs and higher education. And I guess. Take me back to that point. Go back in time. Take me back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself that the next step for you was graduate school. What was going through your head and what made you choose that graduate school was that next step?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:32]: Well, I actually went to Duquesne with the intention of pursuing a professional degree. It was. I wanted to go to law school. And so that next step was always in. In my mindset. And Duquesne ran a program where you could start law school in your senior year of your undergraduate degree. And so I was also. I grew up in the Detroit area, so I picked a campus that was far from home in its location in Pittsburgh.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:57]: And so while I was there as a student, I took a. At a law firm while getting involved on campus. And it was very late in my senior year, and it was the night before the lsat, and I was at an event, so I was involved in campus activities, and I was at an event and just really struggling with this idea that I didn't want to go to law school, that it didn't. Practicing the law didn't have the impact, I guess, that I wanted to have when I originally thought about it. And so I was sitting with a mentor, which is a key piece in this. In the process of pursuing graduate work, a mentor who said, do you know you could do this career path and stay within higher education and pursue the master's degree? And I had no idea. And so that was the start of the process. It was my senior year, and I was behind schedule on timelines, but I refused to take a gap year.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:03:52]: And so in that journey, I stumbled into a graduate program that accepted me late out in Pennsylvania, Indiana University of Pennsylvania. And that's how I ended up enrolled there, which was a. I believe everything happens for a reason. And it was a fantastic campus and a fantastic opportunity for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: You know, I think it's important to. To hear what you just said, because sometimes people feel that they are bound into the. The regular norms of applying, of being considered, and if you're outside of that, that there are no options. And what I just heard you say was, no, that is not the case. You know, you can think about things that are outside the norm. To be honest, I did the same thing. I graduated in December of a year, went to a similar program to what you did, but the traditional model at that time for us was a fall start. So there were very few options or very few programs that were willing to take in those students mid year.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: So I guess what I'm saying to you as you are considering graduate school is that don't let the traditional model always constrain you to what you consider when you're thinking about graduate school, because there may be other options for you and it may take you down a little bit of a different path, but still get you to the same point at the end.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:05:13]: Absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:14]: Now I know that you got through that program and you made that transition. And I guess before we talk about your doctorate, because I know you went to the doctorate. Further down the road is every student, every student, as they are considering graduate school and moving into a graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Just like when you go from high school into undergrad, you know, you have to learn what it means to be a college student when you go to graduate school. Again, it is a very different type of way of learning. It's a different. There's different expectations, there's different ways of being taught. So talk to me about that transition for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: And what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do as you went through graduate school to find success throughout the entire journey?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:00]: There's absolutely transition. And I can definitely talk about my own experience. I can also say as a supervisor of hundreds of graduate students, that it is real and it is legitimate. And I always told them to wait till October because that's when the transition really hits you. If you start your graduate program in August, October is when you're like, okay, I really now feel the crunch. And there is an elevated degree of expectation academically. And so the workload is more rigorous, more intense, and far more independent even than the undergraduate level. Then there, I think, is the idea that if you are pursuing the graduate degree, while you may have a graduate assistantship, a teaching assistantship, it's a level of preparation and execution.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:47]: So you might have a 20 hour a week position, but in order to properly prepare to execute in those 20 hours, it has that additional time constraint. And so time becomes even more, more precious at the graduate level. And the one piece to remember is that your peers are having the same struggles, they are having the same struggles and to really utilize one another to help divide and conquer. And so when we studied for our comprehensive exams, everybody took a major course and, and created the study guide and we shared those mutually, you know, because there isn't enough time to do everything alone. And so having the humility to recognize I can't do this alone. And being comfortable with that and, and really leaning in to find good support networks with your classmates, your cohort, however your program may be structured.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:35]: Again, I love what you just said there because I think that sometimes there's this thought of I have to do it alone and I can't ask for help and I need to prove that I belong here. And that's not the case. Especially in a cohort based program. If you're working along and you hit those comps, if you're hitting them at the same time, which sometimes in a cohort program you do, there's no reason why you cannot all work together to try to lift each other up because all of you want to be successful, all of you want to get to that end point and you want to support each other along the way. So you talk about some of those transitions for yourself. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate experience, what mindset shifts did you have to make to be able to be successful in graduate school?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:08:23]: I had to acknowledge, and this is probably filtered many years later in my language choice is in world. I think there are very few people who are really geniuses, but all of us have ability and academic ability and can be successful and do well academically. And so what the mind shift was about the work ethic and just recognizing that it would be hard work at different points in time and working hard through that and not allowing that struggle. Because sometimes working hard is a struggle to be an indicator of my ability or my self worth. I am not a genius, but I can work hard and I did well academically. And so for graduate students to remember, as you're struggling, it's not because you can't do it. It's because it requires that level of effort to do it well. And I think that's what everyone inherently wants to do, is to do well.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:17]: And those are transitions again, back to high school. The people who didn't have to study in high school or didn't have to do much effort in their undergraduate degree, that'll be a transition. And just keep at the forefront that you are capable of doing this and you just have to work hard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:35]: And graduate school is not always easy. You know it's going to challenge you, it will make you question yourself. And many times students will feel a sense of imposter syndrome that they may not they, especially at the beginning part, but sometimes throughout it. Julie, did you feel that imposter syndrome yourself or did you have a feeling of self doubt through your graduate Studies. And how did you handle it?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:58]: Absolutely. And I would say they were probably more significant in my PhD program, but they existed in both degrees because what the master's level, you're coming into a content area that you, that you don't know anything about. Like, my master's degree is so unrelated to my major that you're coming into it. And so you, you question if you have the ability to, to do the work as you're coming through the coursework and as you're learning the practical components through the assistantship, but it's again, acknowledging how you're feeling and not isolating that and remembering that there are others that are feeling that way. So again, leaning into that support network and establishing good networking, finding a good mentor who can help you talk through those feelings of I don't understand why this is the way that it is, or I don't think I can do this, or I'm really struggling here, you know, someone who can be that sounding board. And I do really, really want to emphasize that mentoring relationship because it's that perspective of helping you prioritize. You're going to, everything's important in grad school, and it all is, but it all is at different points in time, and the mentor can help you prioritize so that you're not completely overwhelmed. And again, feeling like an imposter, like, there's no way I can keep up with this, and I'm just making it up as I go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: I know you just mentioned the PhD and I want to talk to you a little bit about that because I know that after you got your master's degree, you went off, you worked for a bit, and at some point in those about eight years of working, you made a decision, just like you did at the undergraduate level, to take that next step. And at that time, you were working at Bowling Green State University, and you chose to go into a PhD program at bowling Green State University. But take me back to that point. What made you decide to kind of shake it up and go back to school while you were working and working toward that PhD?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:11:56]: So step one, I think, was taking the second to do that poor soul searching of what do I want out of my career? And so I'd been working in a functional area in resident residence life in housing. By happenstance, that wasn't even my background in my undergraduate level. It was just my first graduate assistantship. And it led into my career, but I knew I didn't want to stay there. I didn't want to stay in that area. And so in examining the pathways, the career pathways, and in talking with mentors, and I'd reached a critical point in my career, the number of years that I needed to make a decision, either a pivot to a different area or to pursue the degree, to broaden my skill set and to look at it. So that was step one is just really pointing your career where you have to think about what's next. I'm not one to be able to plan out the next five years, but it's important to think broader, like what is the end goal or what are the things that I want to be able to achieve in my career, and then finding the timing of when that feels appropriate.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:12:58]: And I'd reached a point in my position where I was bored. And I don't say that meaning I didn't have enough work to do. But there is a level of repetitiveness as you do this work, because everything cycles through the academic year. And so the timing was right. I was ready to learn more, move on, and really think about my career and professional development in a broader scale.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: And I know I mentioned that you did choose to go to Bowling Green State University. There are a lot of different PhD programs that are out there in the country. What made you decide to stay where you were working and doing that degree at the same institution?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:13:37]: I was in intimidated from even before I applied. Like, I was prodded to apply by faculty, and retaking the GRE was a stumbling block for me. I think I postponed applying to the PhD program for a number of years. And so I already had a faculty mentoring relationship before I started the program. And that was important to me. I also knew that I wanted to pursue the PhD full time and really delve into being a student. I didn't want to work full time and take it part time. And that's what I needed for me.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:14:12]: And it was one less transition. So the program had a good reputation. Could I have gone to a program with a better reputation? Absolutely. But it would have added a level of transition for me that would have created more anxiety because I was already kind of anxious about again, can I do this? Do I have the ability to do this? And so that's why I chose not to have to also transition into a new community, into a campus, and feel comfortable. All of that was already there for me by staying on my campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, just like in the master's degree, there's another transition into the doctorate. Talk to me about that transition and you know, the good, the bad, the ugly in regard to what you had to Learn to be able to make sure that you were be getting past that, I'm going to say imposter syndrome, or that feeling of not being ready for it, to getting into the groove and being able to get through the program and be successful in that.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:15:08]: So we had a first semester course in our PhD program which really focuses on the philosophy of education and the foundations of education. And it was that faculty member who flat out said to us, my job is to break down the way that you think and teach you to think like a PhD. And that was the biggest transition, is to really transform the thought process, to not settle with what is, but to continually ask why. To always be in search of a level of truth that is research based, that is that exists through demonstrated findings and whether qualitative or quantitative. And really a level of critical thinking that far surpassed what I'd been asked to do before. I think a master's degree really prepares you to do the work and the PhD prepares you to ask why are we doing it? What are we doing? What should we be doing differently? And really get into that critical element. Again, the degree is, you know, a doctorate of philosophy. So it's the philosophy behind what we do and why we do it.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:16:10]: That was tough. That was very tough because those courses would challenge every, as you learned to write, they would challenge every assumption you made in writing and really push back and really get you to transition to being that critical thinker. And again, the key in this group were the upper class PhD students who very much could, could, could help you understand it and pick apart because each, each faculty different style. Not all of them made you feel great about who you were and not internalizing that and recognizing that that's part of the process. That's not about me, but about helping me to really push through and grow and develop in my thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:51]: Every person wears hats. There's a lot of things you have to balance as you're going through graduate school, whether it's at the master's, the doctorate level. And that could be balancing school, work, family, friends, responsibilities, etc. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to balance all of that for yourself as you were going through those different experiences.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:17:14]: I think there's a lot of little things. After working for eight years before I pursued the PhD, there's a rhythm of going to work. And not all of my courses were in that normal time frame, but treating my coursework as work and scheduling for it, right? So some traditional, like good time management skills building in appropriate times for me it was recognizing my windows of productivity, when was I most productive doing certain types of things, whether it was intense reading, writing and then structuring things accordingly. So for me, I'm an early morning writer. It took me the first semester to figure that out. And so rebuilding everything and making sure that I had opportunity to do that. I also realized that I'm a writer in my head before I sit anywhere and as I'm digesting research. And so I literally bought a pad of paper for my car that stuck to the dashboard because I'd have a thought while driving or I would do audio.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:18:11]: Back then we didn't have cell phones that recorded you, but I had one of those ones that you carry around that I needed for research course. And if I had a thought or I'd be walking to class, you know, I was notorious for putting a paper together by post it note I used to say, and so recognizing when are those things happening and don't lose those to find methods to take advantage of it and understanding your learning style. And then there were times there sacrifices. My family lived two hours away, my in laws lived three hours away. And there were times when I had to say no and I had to miss whatever it might be. But there were also times that you had to plan ahead because it was a priority to be with those people or at that event or whatever it might be. And so I really think managing it all is about prioritization and you know, taking your time management skills that you've learned over the course of the undergraduate or the master's degree and really enhancing them. And it's all doable.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:19:06]: There's ton of us out there as sitting proof it is all doable. So anyone who thinks it's not it is doable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:12]: You mentioned mentors and I think one of the things that happens in going through a master's degree, a doctorate degree is you do build mentorships. You build relationships, people that are within your program or around the program, administrators at the institution, whatever it may be. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build and what did you have to do to build those? Because sometimes I know that for some students it's a little intimidating to try to build those professional and non professional types of relationships that truly help you as you go through those type of programs.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:19:53]: I think it starts with not saying no to opportunities, especially if you're in the graduate degree. If you have an opportunity to travel to a conference, then do it because you're exposing yourself to others in your field and step One to creating mentoring relationships. When you've identified someone who just personally resonates with your values and how they do their work is something that you admire. To me, that's. That's recognizing that you want to learn from that person. For those people who are in close proximity to me, it started really just informally with, can I take you to lunch? Could we grab a cup of coffee? And grew naturally through those experiences. And I was never the person who formally said, will you please be my mentor? I know that some of the literature talks about asking people that. Those relationships just naturally formed, and those people were always open to a mutual dialogue about helping, you know, me navigate what's going on in my.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:20:57]: In my career and serving in that mentoring relationship. Also, though, I think the cross between networking and mentoring, because as you identify people in your network that are outside of where you are, those are critical because they can help you see circumstances from an external perspective. So if all of my mentors were just on my campus, they can't necessarily see the worldview in a way that's different because we're all looking at our campus together. And so finding a mentor outside of that was really important so that it could help me learn and grow in a broader context of my profession, which was just broader than my own experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:36]: Now, I know you got through your graduate degrees, you got through the master's, you got through the doctorate, you finished up, you were successful. And I know that you've worked with a number of different graduate students throughout your career as well. As you think back to your own graduate experience, you think about the relationships and the conversations that you've had with other graduate students along the way. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:22:00]: Understand your motives, motive, and don't let that fall away or forget about that. So if you are doing this because you want to advance your career, keep that as a good focal point. If you're doing this because it's something you've always dreamed of, keep that as a focal point. So really, just understanding at the core of who you are, why you're doing this, because there'll be days when you're like, I don't want to do this anymore, and I'm exhausted. And so really keeping that intention and that motivation, motive central. Don't be afraid for the new opportunities. I think I said that earlier. Whatever opportunity that might unfold in graduate school may lead to a different path because you're being exposed to all the things that you didn't know existed.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:22:44]: So just being opened to those opportunities and being willing to say yes. And sometimes that can be stressful because it may take away time or may take away your chance to do some of the. Some of the academic pieces. Right. It's going to compromise time. But what you'll learn from that I think is really important. We've talked about finding support systems, we've talked about finding mentors, which are really critical components. I think the only other piece is just don't lose sight of what you love and what makes you who you are and stay true to that.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:23:17]: So if you have a hobby that you love, build that in to life. Don't give that up. So if you're a person that loves to work out or to hike or bike or scrapbook or play video games, whatever it is, don't lose that because it's a good way for you to stay grounded in who you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I truly, truly appreciate it and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:23:45]: Take care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:46]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:09]: Thanks again for spending time with me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:11]: As you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].