Victors in Grad School

Are you considering grad school in today's ever-evolving landscape? This week's episode of "Victors in Grad School" delivers a must-listen conversation directly from the heart of the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals (NAGAP) conference. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis gathers real-time insights from experts, admissions leaders, and graduate support professionals about the most pressing shifts shaping the graduate school experience in 2024—and what they mean for your journey.

AI & Authenticity One theme echoed by multiple guests is the rise of artificial intelligence, both in the application process and the workplace. While AI tools can help streamline your application, admissions teams stress the importance of letting your authentic self shine. Be cautious about relying too heavily on tools like ChatGPT—admissions counselors can usually spot AI-generated essays. Use technology as support, but make sure your personality and individual story come through.

Holistic Admissions & Diverse Backgrounds The pandemic shifted perspectives around achievement. Rather than just seeking candidates with extensive internships or perfect test scores, many programs are now looking at the whole person. Did you juggle jobs with school? Are you a first-generation student? Your resilience, resourcefulness, and personal growth matter more than ever.

Funding, Fit & Flexibility Cost is a growing concern, and our experts urge applicants to ask (and keep asking) about scholarships, assistantships, and other financial support. In addition, with the exponential growth of online and hybrid offerings, it's crucial to understand various learning formats and select what truly fits your needs. There's also more pressure than ever for grad programs to demonstrate real modern-world relevance—so do your homework and talk to admissions reps, not just online reviews or forums.

Evolving Skills for the Future The episode also explores how the demands of the workforce are shifting. Communication and soft skills—especially in an AI-enhanced environment—are becoming more critical. Programs are adapting to prepare students not just for today's job market, but for tomorrow's unpredictable opportunities.

Why You Should Listen If you're serious about graduate school, don't miss this episode. You'll walk away with honest, actionable advice and a clearer sense of what it takes to stand out—and thrive—in today's graduate landscape.

Ready to dive deeper? Listen now for practical tips and insider perspectives that could make all the difference in your grad school quest!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a shift you're seeing that today's prospective students should be aware of as they consider applying to graduate school. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:03]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Invest in yourself. It is competitive with jobs and AI is on the rise, so it can be challenging when applying for jobs or graduate school. When you're writing an admissions essay or doing your resume, please try not to rely on chat GBT that much. I know it's tempting, but I hate to break it to you, we can tell. We can definitely tell assert writing style or the dashes, but we wanna know you.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:38]: So really try to you can utilize the AI, that's fine, But put in a sense of who you are even through a piece of paper. We wanna get to know you. Be confident. Let that personality shine through and best of luck.

Donna Wang Su [00:01:54]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I think a shift that I am seeing as students are applying to grad school today, I think is that vulnerability. I think that COVID really changed things a bit in the sense of people are leaning a bit into not following. Here's that checklist. I'm gonna check everything off. And they're looking at other opportunities, and I think trying to find the lessons there, and that's something that I truly value. I think us in the admissions offices are also looking at things a little differently.

Donna Wang Su [00:02:33]: We talk about there's that book Privileged Poor where we will consider, oh, this person doesn't have a lot of internships. But as I look at their resume, maybe they're a first generation college student and they don't have that financial luxury to take an unpaid internship in this field or industry. But I've seen that they've worked two, three different jobs while also going to school full time. What lessons have they picked up? What professional maturity have they picked up from this kind of time management? And so I think there's become more of a focus on that holistic admissions and holistic graduate student approach as well.

Santavaya Jordan [00:03:10]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. The biggest thing I see with students in particular is looking at what funding is available and if funding is even gonna be offered due to the political climate. And I can tell you that many of the schools they're fighting to find funding for students to encourage you to still be in these spaces. We definitely want you to be at our institutions to be able to thrive and not focus on how you're gonna pay for a school. So I know that has been a big concern that's happening. Also, another thing is even with testing, a lot of the students are worried about GRE scores or even, like, some that it may have GMAT scores, but a lot of schools are getting rid of that and a lot of them are taking holistic approach to look at other applicants, getting ready for testing because there is a lot of bias within looking at applicants. So I would definitely say although you may be studying for a GRE or studying for a GMAT, don't rule out all the other background things that you may have done with whether it's research or even maybe even had a paper published.

Santavaya Jordan [00:04:07]: Those different type of things can really set you apart when applying for graduate school. So don't focus on your negatives that you may not have. Look at all the positive things and look at other ways to engage in your institution. If you don't have research experience, look at your institution and talk with different faculty and see if you can get in their lab. Pick up lab skills and learn new things that really help you advance your application.

Paul Brandano [00:04:31]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. So we're seeing a few shifts when we think about who our cohorts are. I would say first and foremost, it's a generational shift. When we think about Gen Z who's now a growing part of our population, I think the advantages they bring is that they care a lot about authenticity. They care a lot about making a difference in the world, being socially conscious. And I think these are all things that are going to be valuable in their careers. Of course, the political environment is always changing, so they've gotta be aware of that.

Paul Brandano [00:04:59]: But I think that at the end of the day, they tend to have their head in the right place place when it comes to picking up the job of basically taking over the world eventually. I would also say that they tend to be because of the pandemic and because of the challenges they faced, either more resilient or less resilient. And I think that, you know, depending on their personal experience through that, we see it as either a strength or a gap. I think as long as the students are aware of that, that it's probably had an effect and are self aware enough to acknowledge it, it becomes an opportunity rather than a limitation.

Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of a specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. What I'm seeing is that with the growth of generative AI tools and AI assisted work environments, that what is becoming even more important is a focus on strong communication skills. I work with very quantitative and technical programs, and the shift that we're starting to do is that we're preparing our current graduate students for a work environment. We'll be more of a conductor of an AI tool that's doing most of the quantitative and technical lift. And so really what sets students apart and job candidates apart are their communication soft skills.

Tony Fraga [00:06:19]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. So many students are applying to a lot more schools today than ever before. It's not just applying to a couple of programs. We're seeing huge amounts of volume increase, almost like undergrad levels, at the grad level. That's just becoming normal. So now grad schools, you have to understand, are dealing with a large influx of applicants, but not necessarily great on yield on return.

Tony Fraga [00:06:49]: And I think you need to be aware that you may need to be open to some more programs than you think. You also might not get accepted to some of the ones you want to get into. Others are gonna be so hungry, they want to make it work for you. And I'd find a blend of that and find, hey, what's your price point? And are you applying to enough different grad schools? Have you opened and considered other grad programs that you might not have thought? Don't just go for the an MBA, the main ones. Be open to new programs that are more modern, frankly. Are you getting an analog grad degree in a digital age? We need more modern grad programs, and a lot of them are there, but you gotta find them. And they might not be named what you think the grad degree is. So I'm seeing a lot of grad students apply to more because they're educating themselves and finding there's these other kinds of programs out there.

Adrian Peralta [00:07:37]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I myself am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Look at online, hybrid, and in person. And if you don't understand the difference between the three, definitely ask questions. And sometimes, programs might say they're online, but, really, they might be hybrid. Some might say they're hybrid really in person.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:02]: So definitely ask those questions, and please always make those informed decisions and just lead with knowledge. That's the best way to choose everything.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:15]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. I think a lot of people are shortcutting their research process while they're evaluating schools. A lot of use of AI to accelerate their application process and maybe not going through the same due diligence that I've seen in the past. And I think that in the long run, you're much better if you invest fully in understanding the schools that you're applying to and being a little bit more selective than doing kind of a a ray shot, kind of application strategy.

Naronda Wright [00:08:54]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I serve as the associate associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also a service at NAGAP president. Enrollment is important on our campuses right now, so making sure that you are a good fit for that program that you are applying for and being admitted to so you can progress and graduate and make sure that you are contributing to growth and advancement and things like that on our campuses. So just making sure that what you're doing is what you wanna do and it's a good fit.

Irene Aiken [00:09:23]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. A shift student should be aware of is the jobs that are gonna be in the future. And in particular, companies want students who have skills of today's needs, which include AI and the use of AI and how AI is gonna change their job.

Irene Aiken [00:09:48]: Grad schools are coming back around to the idea of test scores. We saw that with undergrad recently where test scores are coming back. They was they're optional for a while, and now a lot of schools are moving back in that direction. I think faculty get very concerned about the performance of students, and particularly, it's kinda cliche, but post pandemic, grad schools are seeing a decline in students' ability to do graduate level work. And I think that has a lot to do with their student experience over the years, but faculty are kind of going back to the tried and true method of well, they should take this, they should take that. So be aware of that and be aware of changes in how faculty assess the academic readiness of graduate students when they enter programs.

Marcus Hanscon [00:10:35]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Students do so much on their own without talking to anybody. They spend so much time online. They rely on Reddit. They rely on other technology and AI, and there's certainly value to that. And you wanna get some external opinions and thoughts and see what kind of evaluators are saying about your programs.

Marcus Hanscon [00:10:58]: But nothing beats actually talking to the people and getting in there beyond just doing your own web research. And a lot of students, they don't talk to anybody until after they apply. And they miss out on that opportunity to not only learn about a good program, but also learn what a program is not right for them. So why waste your time applying to a program that ultimately isn't gonna be the right fit? And you can usually wean that out by talking to an admissions rep or faculty or students very early in your process before you ever apply.

Sabrina Brown [00:11:26]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. The many roles that graduate education does play, I see that higher education is not as trusted by the intent of higher education is both different for everyone and what people think the outcome should be. And it's not just return on investment or getting another job, a higher paying job, or sort of economically focused. Higher education serves a lot of purposes. And so we see this shift in terms of what is coming out of or going into higher education and what that value means to the public, but I think that it's important for prospective students to really be grounded in what does this endeavor do for you and how does that shift your life and your ability to live the best life that you're creating for yourself.

Addie Caudle [00:12:30]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Students really being more cautious about the programs they're looking at. They're wanting to make sure that these programs relate to where they wanna be in life, whether it's their goals, whether it's they wanna be in academia or industry. All of that is going to depend significantly on the type of program that they're going for.

Melissa Yeung [00:12:53]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. I think the cost of education, you know, cost is always on the forefront of of students' mind, and the availability of support is, I think, becoming more important for students. So those are the two things that I think it's coming up to the forefront compared to the trends that we're seeing maybe five or ten years ago.

James Monahan [00:13:25]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. The biggest shift that is happening right now in higher education in general is going to online programs and you need to figure out what's right for you, whether you want a fully online program or maybe you need a hybrid type program. I think that's really important and something that everyone should keep in mind when they choose their graduate studies.

Jamie Crampton [00:13:54]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. AI. Absolutely. I mean, AI is sadly, but also positively becoming more and more widely used across the world.

Jamie Crampton [00:14:18]: And I feel like not just in education during your studies, but also post enrollment when you actually get a job and a career, more and more jobs are going to look for people with AI experience. And I think that's a key thing is just understand AI, use AI, and then learn how to apply that to your education, but also professionally afterwards as well.

Ben Webb [00:14:44]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the admission side at multiple schools across the country. There's a lot of programs that are out there in world. So it's figuring out a lot of the MSBA programs or AI or computer science. What do you wanna do? Do you wanna be an AI manager, or are you looking to be a tactical person that's actually using the data? So I think we're we're starting to see a shift of overload of programs. There's a lot coming out with the same names. So how do we kinda start to differentiate which one is gonna be the best fit? So understanding and finding you want the degree, but what within that degree is what you're really looking to get in a world where many universities of various sizes are offering the same thing.

Matt Bohlen [00:15:31]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bohlen, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. Been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in ed, a couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also I love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. I think the shifts of how to pay for college is something that's important. Historically, you know, we relied a lot on internships or assistantships. Nowadays, I think it's okay to ask what type of funding is available because there's so much competition in the market. The graduate programs have to be realistic that there are scholarships that need to be spent for students, especially some of your high achieving students that are gonna bring a lot of experiences to the program itself. So I think that's a big shift that we're seeing is just don't be afraid to ask for scholarships because they're there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:15]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating graduate school is a journey filled with both promise and challenge. While many students focus on selecting the right program or acing their classes, there's a world of support—often overlooked—that can make all the difference. In the latest episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis brings together enrollment professionals, faculty, and industry experts from universities across the country to answer a vital question: What's an underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success?

A powerful theme that emerges is the value of community and connection. From networking with recruiters and professionals, to seeking out mentors and joining student organizations, building intentional relationships is a recurring piece of advice. Stacy Goldstein of UC San Diego urges students to "network, network, network"—not just for job opportunities, but to foster professional connections that can open unexpected doors.

Tapping into campus resources is another underappreciated strategy. Whether it's visiting the writing center as recommended by Irene Aiken of UNC Pembroke, or taking advantage of the library's knowledgeable staff and resources, graduate students are reminded that these supports go far beyond undergraduate basics. Several guests, like Matt Bohlen, highlight that services often assumed to be for undergrads—such as tutoring and consulting—are invaluable at the graduate level.

Career and professional development also take center stage. According to Tony Fraga, a proactive approach to career services—like participating in mock interviews—can directly impact post-graduate outcomes. Meanwhile, Paul Brandano from UCLA underscores the importance of identifying and addressing skill gaps before and during your program, whether by brushing up on technical skills or improving communication through creative outlets.

Finally, there's a strong message about attending to mental health and personal well-being. Multiple voices stress the significance of using counseling services and seeking support from faculty, mentors, and peers. "Don't suffer in silence," advises Emily Dayton, reminding students they're not alone on this journey.

The episode is rich with practical advice, personal stories, and a refreshing honesty about the realities of graduate education. If you're considering graduate school or already on your journey, this conversation is an essential listen to ensure you're not missing out on the resources that can propel you to success.

Tune in, take notes, and empower your grad school experience!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:04]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions. And my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Network. Network. Network. Network.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:18]: Write down every recruiter's name. So a lot of support strategy or what can you do to be successful. Make the connections you have count. So write down, even if it's an online virtual event, who you spoke with is that recruiter. So next time when you meet them, especially in person, you can make that connection and let them know that you were present. That helps.

Donna Wang Su [00:01:40]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm definitely biased, but I do think that an underrated service is gonna be your financial aid office. And I say that because I do a lot of one on one financial advising with my students, which quickly turns into strategic planning slash career services. Because we'll start talking about budgeting and we'll start talking about, well, I wanna be able to save up to do this. I wanna go explore this. And next you know, it leads down a different path. And I love connecting with students years later who tell me that they still remember tips or use strategies that we've used from our coaching sessions.

Santavaya Jordan [00:02:24]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. Definitely, back again, tack into the mental health. Making sure your mental health is intact as much as possible. Not everyone understands and believes how much they need resources to talk to someone whether it's a counselor or even a mentor that you could relate to. Someone that's been in your position before or someone that can just have be an outlet or a resource that doesn't have anything to say or give their own opinion on what you're going through, but a listening ear to ear to help you get through difficult situations, whether it is personally that can affect you academically or something that's academically that can affect you personally.

Paul Brandano [00:03:05]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. But with a quantitative master's, I think the the probably more underrated support services are the things that are initially gaps on the technical side. So I I think, for example, about a person who was fantastic in our first cohort, she was, by training, an economist. She was an undergraduate economist and she came into our program and said, I just don't have the Python. I have never programmed in R. I don't really know my SQL. And she said, but I promise you by the time I get into the program, I will have taken a few courses and I plan on spending my Friday nights in the library.

Paul Brandano [00:03:39]: And everybody can say that, but she absolutely did it. And I think that the difference it made for her was that she didn't just get hired by the the consulting firm. She got hired by BCG Gamma. You know, she could really walk the walk and talk the talk. So I think I think a lot of folks might underestimate the real leap they can make by just adding a little bit more pre prep before the master's degree. And I see that quite a lot. The other one is, you know, we do a lot with on the other end of the spectrum, if it's non quant, it's communications. And so if you if you come in knowing where your biggest gap is and then look for creative ways of filling them, not all programs are gonna do all of it.

Paul Brandano [00:04:11]: And so we add improv as an example. But that improv is available in most major cities. Right? And I always recommend it. It's a great way to to sort of launch your way forward quickly in a short window of time while you're still getting your master's degree. The best time of your life when you're probably your most charismatic. And so I would recommend those kinds of approaches too. Like, look for the creative things that make you shine uniquely, you know, that give you that x factor, that ability to talk about something a little different than the average candidate might hear.

Emily Dayton [00:04:41]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. This is something that our faculty say a lot, but we really encourage our students to do not suffer in silence. Most staff and faculty are there to help, and they want students to be successful. So one thing that we do at the Rady School is that our faculty will proactively share the support system that is in place at the start of each quarter, at the start of each class so that our students are aware of the resources that are there before they run into an issue.

Tony Fraga [00:05:21]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. For sure, career services. And here is an underrated thing. And I'll just say, I know there are many career services departments that aren't great. They're just kinda meh, and you don't learn a lot. It's maybe captain obvious.

Tony Fraga [00:05:40]: Like, make sure you have a LinkedIn profile, and here's three resume templates you can use. Like, you can get that off of ChatGPT and Internet. You don't need a career services department for that, to be honest. A great career services department is will meet with you and help you do things like a mock actual interview before you have an actual interview with an employer. I'd be looking at that. I think that's so underrated. If you cannot just train how to get a degree and learn something, if you can learn how to then interview with a real employer, it can make or break whether or not you get that job. And let me tell you, the next generation coming out, people in their twenties and thirties, they're struggling to find right fit jobs because you're not interviewing well.

Tony Fraga [00:06:16]: Tap into your university's career service department. They know how to do it. They see lots of you go through not well, so they have a vested interest in you doing it better.

Adrian Peralta [00:06:29]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international and special populations admissions counselor. Definitely understand student accounting and financial aid. Those are your two biggest portions that will help you onboard to the university you want to in the right way and help you understand what opportunities are out there to fund your degree and finance it, you know, also. But also look at graduate assistantships. That also is a really big thing that we see these days.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:07:06]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. The most underrated support service is probably taking advantage of networking and career and professional development while you're a graduate student. A lot of people think about their academics while they're in school and think that that comes next, But it doesn't matter how smart you are or how much you know if nobody knows who you are. So take the time to once a week, twice a week, reach out to people, make some connections, and try and build some bridges along the way.

Dr. Noranda Wright [00:07:43]: Hello. I'm Noranda Wright. I serve as the associate dean of graduate student services at Georgia Southern University and also serve as the Nagat president. I think probably one of the most underrated one is advisement because that's where you're gonna get your information from. So knowing who to talk to if you need help with registering for classes, if you need to change your major, or if you need to just real realize what you need to do in order to advance yourself academically, to be retained as a student, and eventually graduate. So know who your advisors are, know who your program directors are so they can offer that support for you is, I think, is probably one of the most underrated things on our campuses.

Irene Aiken [00:08:22]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. The underrated support service on campus is often the writing center, but the career center, there are just so many offerings at every campus. I don't think students take advantage of enough.

Irene Aiken [00:08:42]: Retention actually makes a big difference. Regular check ins with students sometimes seem like something it's out of reach for a school. I would say with AI, it makes it even easier where you could have an AI agent calling all of your students two or three times a semester just to check on them, see how things are doing, maybe, you know, get them resources, get them help.

Marcus Hanscon [00:09:05]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Unfortunately, admissions officers are seen as salespeople, and I think that's an unfortunate thing for students cause they assume that whenever they're talking to an admissions person, they're only gonna get one side of the story. And I think the vast majority of the people that I've worked with over seventeen years in graduate enrollment is that they're genuinely out to help the student find the right thing for them. And even if that means telling them to go to another school. So talk to your admissions reps, Call them on the phone. Text with them.

Marcus Hanscon [00:09:36]: Email with them. Go and visit them in their offices. Have a candid conversation, and don't be afraid to ask good questions, candid questions, things that you might be worried. Can I ask that or not? Ask the questions. There's no bad question other than the ones that you don't ask.

Sabrina Brown [00:09:53]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. Finding ways to make connection and build community to the level that feels like support for you, but oftentimes students think about the efficient way to go through a program. How many credits can I take? Is it online? Is it gonna fit with my commuter schedule? And those are all important things, but going to a new level educationally can feel lonely or it can stretch you in ways that can be surprising and finding those that are kind of alongside side it or have done it before can really be a game changer. But when you're sort of in a space of learning, it can feel vulnerable and scary and sometimes people kind of turn into themselves to feel like they need to be their own support. But I have found that the students that truly are able to raise their hand and say, either I need help or I just need to feel seen in this process, they go farther and feel better about the experience that they have.

Addie Caudle [00:10:58]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. It's really the advising and the mentoring. Different institutions kind of address these in different ways. I know our students that we'll see, you know, they we don't have any professional advisors, but we are working on that. That's something I'm actually hiring for right now. And we've got faculty mentors that really work with the departments. But a lot of times, they're not able to get a hold of them due to nine month contracts and really we run into that issue during the summer.

Addie Caudle [00:11:26]: Faculty are also so involved in teaching and research of their own projects that sometimes the advising and taking the time to help direct and guide our students where they need for help can become difficult.

Melissa Yeung [00:11:42]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. The use of the counseling center and with all the stresses that we all face on a daily basis, whether it's balancing your obligations or just finding an outlet that or someone you can talk to, the counseling center can make a lot of difference. It's also the place where if you you were struggling with something else, they could easily point you to other resources on campus. And being in a good mental space generally is great. It's a good start for academic success.

James Monahan [00:12:27]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. I don't know if it's underrated, but I would say that the library is incredibly useful to students and I don't know that they realize it and they don't perhaps recognize that the people that work in the libraries are really there to help them whether it be with research or solving a problem and I think that, you really should go out and check out what they've got available to you.

Jamie Crampton [00:12:59]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. At least from The UK side and why I joined Gecko, we're a student engagement platform that helps kind of provide students with the right tools to understand an institution, whether that be prospective or current students, is utilizing admissions staff and also admissions student workers. For me, when I joined university, I became a student worker because my experience prior to enrolling was I was scared. I didn't know who to talk to.

Jamie Crampton [00:13:41]: I didn't know if a question was a stupid question. Felt more comfortable speaking with a student worker or an admissions representative because they were so much more friendly and a little bit more approachable. So for anybody listening to this, if you're a prospective or current student, I would say don't be afraid to reach out to the people whose job it is to answer your questions because from a pre enrollment perspective, that really enhanced my journey in which university I decided to go with. But then also when I began my studies, I actually felt like dropping out of university in the first year because I didn't enjoy some of the courses I was enrolled in as part of my degree. I had to do four individual subjects each semester and some of them I was like, I'm doing a marketing degree. Why am I doing finance? Why am I doing accounting? And I was told that after speaking with my representative, my mentor, that this was just the first year and it gets a lot more segmented in terms of my career path and what I wanted to do later on. And so she encouraged me to stick at it, keep going with it, and it will get better. And I'm really glad I listened to her because I almost dropped out.

Jamie Crampton [00:14:46]: And instead of dropping out, I end up graduating in the top possible degree class I could have graduated with. So, it was all thanks to her because I was going to drop out if not. So long winded response, but utilize the staff that are there to help you both preenrollment and postenrollment.

Ben Webb [00:15:05]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the mission side at multiple schools across the country. For me, one of my biggest things that I recommend to people when they're coming into a graduate school, they're gonna go into professional world is mentoring services and and joining things that kinda get you out of comfort zone. So things like Toastmasters, joining your young professional society, figuring out how to speak and communicate effectively, be able to interact with new people, learn new things, like those soft skills and be able to really execute upon those is a priceless because we can teach you to talk the finance and the numbers and those sort of things, but being able to articulate, present yourself in a room, dress for success, those are things that really need to shine to be able to elevate yourself.

Matt Bohlen [00:15:54]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bohlen, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. I've been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in higher ed, couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. You know, I think at the graduate level too, we don't often think that there is tutoring available, there's consulting available, there's all types of different services that are typically thought of to be undergraduate services that are available for graduate students too. The writing center, I mean, those are some pretty big resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Choosing the right graduate program is a big decision that can shape your academic, professional, and personal future. In this episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis brings together a diverse panel of enrollment management professionals and industry experts from across the country to answer a critical question: What's one piece of advice you would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally? The insights shared in this episode are a goldmine for anyone considering graduate school or helping others navigate the process.

One major theme throughout the episode is the importance of self-reflection and self-honesty. Many experts, including Sabrina Brown (UNC Charlotte) and Tony Fraga (Direct Development), urge students to look beyond academic rankings or prestige. Instead, they recommend starting with your "why"—what are your true motivations and career goals? Take the time to evaluate your learning style, your needs for support and community, and how a program aligns with your personal aspirations and circumstances.

Research and connection are another recurring theme. Repeatedly, the guests encourage prospective students to look beyond brochures and websites. Instead, make meaningful connections: talk to faculty, current students, and especially alumni in roles or industries you aspire to. Emily Dayton (UC San Diego) and Marcus Hanscom (Direct Development) stress the value of these conversations in revealing the actual culture of a program, typical career outcomes, and the lived experiences of people just like you.

The academic environment matters too, but it's not the whole story. Paul Brandano (UCLA Anderson) and James Monahan (SIU Edwardsville) highlight the importance of evaluating curriculum, faculty engagement, and the level of rigor honestly—you want to be challenged, but also supported.

Location and atmosphere are also crucial elements. As Ben Webb (QS) and Santavaya Jordan (Vanderbilt University) point out, a program's fit is not just about classes and credentials but also about the city or campus setting and the mental health resources available. Can you picture yourself thriving in this new environment?

Finally, don't forget to be proactive! Reach out for more information, as Matt Bohlen (Carnegie) explains—it's worth the extra effort to piece together what life as a student there truly looks like.

If you're gearing up for grad school or supporting someone on that journey, this episode is packed with candid, actionable advice. Listen in for a wide range of perspectives and start charting your own path to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question was, what's one piece of advice you would give to students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:07]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, and my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. One piece of advice that I like to give is utilize the resources you have now and work backwards. What does that mean? If you're in school right now, you're getting career resources, have someone look at your resume. So utilize those connections, get to know your faculty. Sometimes they're board members or they sit or they still are a partner. Make those connections, not just LinkedIn, but get to know them.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:42]: And what I mean by work backwards, then follow them on LinkedIn. What job do you wanna do? Look at their profile, see what they did for their graduate studies, see what types of jobs they got, and then that will gauge of which direction and which graduate school you choose. Go for the dream job.

Donna Wang Su [00:02:01]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at

Jamie Crampton [00:02:05]: Northwestern University, Medill School of

Donna Wang Su [00:02:05]: Journalism, Media, Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm a huge fan of strategic planning. So I think to do research, look at careers, jobs that you say to yourself, I could see myself doing that. And doing those kind of informational interviews with people and seeing, you know, what paths have taken them in that direction, whether it was the right mentorship, if it was the right degree, what was it part of the degree? Was it the network? Was it the curriculum? And kind of letting that guide their path there.

Santavaya Jordan [00:02:40]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. One great thing I would say is looking at not just the school's ratings, but where the school is located and if you can be in that environment mentally. It's very important for your mental health when you're in a new environment, not only dealing with new people and experiences, but actually the other outlets within that area within the city for you to go to, resources that are on campus, resources that are off campus for your mental health. And that's extremely important, especially if you have other family factors or other life situations that may contribute to or may affect how you matriculate throughout your program.

Paul Brandano [00:03:23]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. Personally, I'm thinking all the time about, first, who they are. So I've I've gotta get to know them quite well before I even begin to answer the question. It's pretty clear from our perspective that there's a certain baseline in a program like ours, which is highly quantitative. And so when we're looking for our fit, we're looking for someone who can swim, not sink. And that's academically, of course, in all the quantitative courses that they might take on with us, and they're quite diverse. So that could be a, you know, a math major, it could be an accounting major, it could be a finance major, undergrad, it could be a computer scientist or an engineer.

Paul Brandano [00:04:00]: But they've gotta have some common ability to manage the higher level math. Ideally, they will have taken multirabial calculus and linear algebra. And so if they do have those things, that starts the conversation. Because after that, you're really looking for how much of a fit are they going to be in the next phase of their life, which is their career. And they've just got a short window with us. I think the advantage of an MBA is that you get to be there a while. You get to evaluate for yourself what's the right path, where am I going, and perhaps choose one of those areas I was mentioning, finance, operations, etcetera. Here, we just know that they're going to be specialists and ideally have as broad a breadth of skill sets across those functional areas as possible so that they can, in their career, jump between marketing and finance, etcetera, or between industries.

Paul Brandano [00:04:43]: And so what I'm looking for and and and I'm evaluating them, they're evaluating us is, you know, how much of that do they have naturally? And when, you know, just like when you go to a conference or listening to a podcast, you're you're kind of moved more by a person who has that natural charisma, that x factor. And so we're definitely looking for that. Right? You know, is it if you've got those things that sort of stand out to everyone as they've got some magic in them, they're on my admit list. And I think in the middle, it's it's someone who can who has a few gaps to fill. And I think those are the ones, of course, who are gonna get the most from a program like ours. So it's really professional, personal, academic. They all kind of go together. I am looking for a scholar more than I'm looking for someone who just wants to get the job.

Paul Brandano [00:05:23]: I think that's really important because it says they're gonna be in it not from not just from me, but for the next phase.

Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Ravey School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. So my recommendation is to talk to alumni of the program. And if you can, alumni that have similar preprogram traits that are important to you. So maybe an undergrad major or institution, maybe work experience in the same industry or family or support network system. And after talking with them, think about if their experiences resonate with your own motivations for graduate school.

Tony Fraga [00:06:11]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. I think of fit first aligning with what it is the outcome you have in your mind of what that success looks like for you. Because when we consider a program, we're actually have an idea. And I would say to you, what

Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: is it you have in your mind? I don't

Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: care how idealistic it is. You have a vision in your mind of you after you get a pro a degree and what you're doing. And I actually would start professionally first. I'm not saying academically and personally don't matter as much, but I actually would start there because I think that aligns with your vision for you went on this path because of a why. What's your why behind what you'd be looking at here? And you might have not have it all figured out, but you do have this idea in your head of, but I'd like to, I want to, I have a desire to, and you gotta stay rooted in that. I think if it's professionally aligned with your professional goals first, check that box. The next one I would go to is personally, over academically. Because personally, who are you and how do you learn? Do you really know yourself? Because I think a lot of us sometimes aren't honest with how we learn and what mode and kind of environment we're looking for.

Tony Fraga [00:07:20]: You may need to be around people more. An online program might not be good for you even though it sounds sexy. And so I think you need to be honest with yourself of honestly, what are your work habits? What are your learning habits? And if you're not honest with that, personally, how you operate, you're gonna sign up for a really cool program that could hit your professional goals, but that you stink at because it's not the right mode for you personally. And then academically, I think you need to be honest with a level of rigor, and looking at the professors and how it's taught, and what are the academics like at that institution. Is this gonna be a like high pace cranky through, but you gotta really be on it? You want a lot of hand holding? I think you need to look at the entire academic experience. Look at the professors, listen to them, listen to their podcasts, read their content. Do you like it? Can you learn from that? That's what I do next.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:10]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Please evaluate your career path. That always is the first step. And always understand understand who your support systems are. That also helps you to kinda make that final informed decision.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:32]: Always ask questions and make yourself as available as you can be to people who may not be in your profession, but can help you, you know, understand all the different nuances of choosing the right grad program, but as well as selecting your mentors.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:50]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. Visit. Don't rely on just the website. Talk to people and get to know the culture of the campus and the culture of the student body and the faculty. That helps a lot to make sure that it's a place that you can thrive. Ask a lot of questions. Don't be shy because people are really eager to tell you about their experiences.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:09:16]: So go out of your way to make some personal connections. I would also say check-in and find out about outcomes. Ask questions about where people are going, what kinds of, careers they're pursuing, and make sure that that's a good match for you. Because if there's a runway of alumni that are doing the thing that you want to do, there's a much greater likelihood that you're gonna land in a place that's gonna make you happy in the long run.

Naronda Wright [00:09:41]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I service the associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also service the Nagat president. One, first, do your research on the program. Know what the admissions requirements are. What are the outcomes? What are the SLOs for a program to find out if it's a good fit for you. We think we want something, then we get into it, and we start taking classes and meeting with faculty and staff, and it's not what we want. So I think the biggest thing upfront for me is the biggest piece of advice is to do your research prior to even applying to a graduate program so you know what you're looking for, and you have a better outlook on your graduate program.

Irene Aiken [00:10:16]: I'm Irene Akin. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. First of all, they need to shadow someone who is in the field and speak with a lot of people who are in that field and with those credentials to see if that's the job that they want to do in the future.

Ray Lutsky [00:10:38]: Hey there. This is doctor Ray Lutzky, vice president for strategic partnerships at Element four fifty one, the AI driven student engagement platform. And one piece of advice I would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is right fit academically, personally, professionally, is to get a vibe for how the faculty deal with the students. If there are ways to get great education but have a poor experience, And then there are opportunities to find mentorship and lifelong connections and career advice, and the faculty play a big role in that. I think that's one of the key advantages of the on campus experience today still over many online modalities, but I think that's important. And it's also interesting to think.

Matt Bohlen [00:11:25]: Alright. My name

Marcus Hanscon [00:11:26]: is Marcus Hanscomb. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools, talk to current students and faculty. It's a little extra effort, but it's worth it and actually getting some good value to hear about what kind of research is being undertaken, what kinds of outcomes they could expect for their programs. And it's really critical that you find a program that you're investing your time and money in to find that's a really good fit for you and ultimately gets you to the career goal that you have.

Sabrina Brown [00:11:55]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. It's truly taking the time to think about what's sort of going on in your world

Sabrina Brown [00:12:07]: as well as the goals or outcomes. Sometimes the goals

Sabrina Brown [00:12:08]: or outcomes for you or outcomes for you choosing your program is increased earning potential and very, like, nuts and bolts y, like, what can I do in my career? Sometimes it's what you're hoping to learn and just expanding your ability to learn about the things that you're passionate about or maybe it's expanding your legacy for your family. So really taking stock of that, but I also think taking stock of what's going on in your world and where those things intersect and are gonna pull on you so you can create the best support for yourself. So if you have a lot of competing priorities or passions, what is it gonna look like not just for you to have to sacrifice or make space for this new endeavor, but also the people around you and making sure that you're setting yourself up for success. I think websites and chatting with people and connecting with folks in your intended program is super helpful, but oftentimes prospective students forget themselves in the process when they're just looking at information gathering. So truly insert yourself, what you bring, and all that comes a part of your journey or will be a part of your journey in that evaluation process.

Addie Caudle [00:13:20]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Really look at the program, talk to current students that are in the program, talk to alumni, talk to faculty because ultimately you're gonna be tied to this program for a year, two years, depending on if it's a master's or doctoral program. And you really wanna make sure that this is going to fit what you want to do and what your goals are in life.

Melissa Yeung [00:13:45]: I'm doctor Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the school of physical and occupational therapy at Bowling Green State University. Do a deep reflection of what you need as a student, as a learner, depending on where you are in life. If you are someone who requires that faculty be readily on hand for you to just walk into their office and seek advice, then perhaps the hybrid program or an online program may not be a good fit for you. But if you're someone who's working full time and you just need to get into a degree program that you can finish quickly, then perhaps looking into an online program would be a good fit for you.

James Monahan [00:14:33]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Number one, I would have them check on the school's website for the curriculum. I think you need to look at what classes you're going to be able to take and make sure it really fits with your interest because there's going to be slight differences from every school and you want something that you're really passionate about. So I would really suggest you go there. And one other thing I'll just add is that trust your instincts. Sometimes there's a school something just appeals to you about the school and that's actually okay and not a bad reason for choosing a program.

Ben Webb [00:15:12]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. First of all, pursue your personal preferences, what you think you would enjoy studying. That's the most important factor, I think, in any decision on which program is the right fit. But take that with a pinch of salt and also consider the programs that are professionally going to benefit you as well.

Jamie Crampton [00:15:43]: I know when I was choosing my education path, I really wanted to do act acting or drama or things around that nature like my elder sister did. And the difficulty with that was we both loved that, but it was hard to get into a profession with a degree around that nature. And so I started looking at multiple types of courses that revolved around business, which was also a passion of mine. And somehow, I could incorporate my drama there as well, whether that be societies or clubs that were drama site is I could join as part of my business studies so I could continue my personal passion of drama, but then also have my professional passion of business so that I knew that I could be set up for success after my education. But ultimately, try and find the right balance between what you're personally gonna enjoy studying, but then also what's gonna set you up for success in the future.

Ben Webb [00:16:38]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I used to be on the admission side at at multiple schools across the country. There's a couple different sizes, an academic fit and there's a personal fit. Are you looking for a city atmosphere, a small college town? Where are you most comfortable? Because if you're comfortable there, you'll be able to enjoy it, you'll be able to study, you'll be able to focus. So I think that on the the personal side of it is, what type of atmosphere are you most comfortable in going to school? Large university, small university, class size. So I think that being able to understand, okay.

Ben Webb [00:17:11]: Well, what is the real class size I'm gonna have? Am I gonna have a TA? Am I gonna be actually meeting my true faculty member every day? Those are all some of the questions that you want us to find because you need to be in an atmosphere where you're not distracted, you're not concerned to be able to be relaxed enough to enjoy your education, but also perform at a peak level. I think that the career service teams at universities are obviously the the best place to go, but I think that

Matt Bohlen [00:17:37]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bull, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. I've been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in higher ed, couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also I love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. I think the best piece of advice is don't be afraid to reach out. I mean, there's a lot of content on graduate programs websites, sometimes too much content, but it can be overwhelming. I would say don't be afraid to submit a form to receive more information, It takes more time, but it's invaluable.

Matt Bohlen [00:18:11]: And just spending so much time on the website kind of get confuses when you blur so many different programs together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Thinking about graduate school can sometimes feel overwhelming—especially if you've spent years building a career and are contemplating a return to the classroom. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Barb Whitney, an accomplished artist, educator, and arts administrator, to discuss her inspiring journey through graduate school and how it shaped her professional trajectory.

Barb's story stands as a testament to the transformative power of lifelong learning and the value of embracing new challenges. After earning her undergraduate degree in art history from Kalamazoo College, Barb dedicated years to working in various roles in the arts. However, she reached a pivotal moment: to advance to the role of executive director, she realized further education was essential. With encouragement from mentors and a clear vision for her future, Barb made the courageous decision to pursue a Master of Arts in Arts Administration at the University of Michigan Flint.

In the episode, Barb discusses the unique blend of excitement and anxiety that came with returning to school after a significant gap. She candidly describes adapting to newer technologies, learning to ask for help, and finding the most effective ways to study in a graduate-level environment. Her openness about facing a steep learning curve—and conquering it—offers valuable reassurance to anyone wondering if they're truly "ready" for grad school.

A key theme in Barb's journey is the immense value of practical, real-world application. She simultaneously took on the role of executive director while pursuing her studies, creating an enriching feedback loop between classroom learning and workplace challenges. She also highlights how the University of Michigan's reputation and rigorous curriculum opened doors for national fellowships, provided invaluable networking opportunities, and allowed her to tailor her education with field trips and independent study projects directly connected to her passions.

Barb's advice for aspiring grad students is both practical and inspiring: seek out ways to fund your education (such as research fellowships), don't hesitate to ask for support, and recognize the broad impact a graduate degree in the arts can have—not just on your career, but on your community. The arts, she reminds us, are powerful drivers of health, well-being, and creativity in every field.

Whether you're considering grad school immediately after your undergraduate degree or after years in the workforce, Barb Whitney's story is packed with wisdom and encouragement. Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School for a candid conversation filled with actionable advice and hope for anyone on a similar journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are, as you are either looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, preparing for graduate school, or currently in graduate school, it is this continuum, this journey that you go from that first inkling of wanting to continue your education all the way to post graduation. And there are definitely things that you can do day in, day out to prepare yourself, but also to continue to work through the process of finding success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:04]: Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school or are currently in graduate school that have figured this out for themselves. And everybody has to figure it out in different ways. What I'm trying to do with you is give you some of those tools ahead of time so you don't have to hit so many bumps along the road. So this week we've got another great guest. Barb Whitney is with us. And Barb is an artist, an educator, an administrator. She's done many different things in being a champion for the arts. And through her own experience, not only professionally, but through her education, she started her education at Kalamazoo College and got a Bachelor of Arts in Art History.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And then after some years of working made a decision, made a decision to continue her education and getting a Master of Arts in Arts Administration. We'll talk more about that. But I'm really excited to have her here. Barb, thanks so much for being here.

Barb Whitney [00:02:06]: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, I am excited to have you. You and I have known each other for quite some time over our time working in the Lansing area. And as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Kalamazoo College and you got that bachelor of arts degree in art and art history. And then you graduated and you went off, started getting some experience as an educator, as a program manager, as an administrator, working in the arts in many different ways. And at some point during that professional experience, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go back to school. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go back to get that graduate degree?

Barb Whitney [00:02:55]: I remember the day that I decided to apply. I had been thinking about it for some time. I was in a role working with the Arts Council of Greater Lansing, and I had this incredible boss, Leslie Donaldson, who would regularly ask us, what are you doing and what would you like to be doing as an artist, as an educator, as an administrator, and helped me to envision my potential for the future because I was able to articulate that I wanted to further my education. I started thinking about if I wanted to go beyond being a program manager, which I loved, what that might look like as an executive director, and I knew that I needed to go back to school for that. I found a few different programs that were master's programs in arts administration. And, you know, when I was in my undergrad research way back in the day thinking about colleges, I thought about Kalamazoo College and University of Michigan. And when I had seen the helicopter campus view for the Ann Arbor campus, I was a little intimidated, so I made my application to Kalamazoo College and did my undergrad that way. But then thinking about an advanced degree and knowing that there was a program at University of Michigan Flint, I went and scoped it out.

Barb Whitney [00:04:27]: Flint's a community I know somewhat, and went to that beautiful little coffee shop downtown and sat there and had coffee and had lunch. And I just thought, you know, I think I'm ready to make this big change. So within about six months, I had actually made my application to go back to school and been accepted and then gotten a job as an executive director. So I ended up doing my graduate studies at the same time as taking on a role as an executive director. So I did my first three years of being an ED. I was also in graduate school, and my board of directors was incredibly supportive of that time and really saw how much it enhanced our work together to be working in the field and to be learning at the same time using our work as case studies in the classroom and vice versa was really beneficial.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]: Now you kinda already mentioned this, but I guess I would love to get into your mind a little bit because there are there are many arts administration programs across the nation. You chose to go to the University of Michigan Flint, and I guess take me back to that point as you were thinking about where to apply, why to apply to that program. What made you ultimately choose the University of Michigan Flint as the program that you ended up with?

Barb Whitney [00:05:42]: I knew that I wanted to attend in person, and I'm about an hour away. So I figured if I was already in Lansing, which is about halfway from my hometown, that I could do that travel. So proximity was a factor, but I also knew that I wanted to have some prestige and cache to the work I do, and University of Michigan speaks volumes at the national level. So when I was thinking about doing things like national research fellowships, the University of Michigan name helped a great deal. I wanted something that was academically rigorous. So if I made the commitment to go back to school, I knew I wanted it to be difficult. I knew that was part of the calculus at the time, and I did find that. Doctor.

Barb Whitney [00:06:30]: Sarah Lippert was my advisor and was just exemplary in what felt like a million ways, but also very challenging. And that's part of what I've been looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now everybody that goes back to school and goes into a graduate degree goes through a transition. You went from undergrad, you had a I'm gonna say a wide gap between going to undergrad and going into graduate school. So you had a transition as well. Not only a transition from how you learned as an undergraduate student to how you were learning as a graduate student, but having to get yourself back into the mindset of being a student again. And you did find success in that journey. You graduated, you got that degree to prepare you for the work that you are doing and to help you in the work that you are doing. Talk to me about what did you have to do as you started in the program to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Barb Whitney [00:07:32]: I had to remember how to ask for help. I remember the first of the times we were working with doctor Lippert for a timed written exam. I thought I understood the assignment and thought I answered all the questions really well, and we got them back. And I remember doctor Lippert saying, would anyone like to retake the exam, Barb? And I said, yes, please. I'd like to retake the exam. And in the end, I did have, four point in my graduate courses. But those first few sessions, there was a a steep learning curve around many things. First of all, how to use the online systems.

Barb Whitney [00:08:23]: Second of all, the use of technology in the classroom or not. I showed up with my little laptop, and I thought I'd be typing notes, and that was gonna be the right way. But that wasn't actually always the right way. Some professors required handwritten notes because they know the research about retention. So some of it was just learning how to accommodate each different professor in terms of their needs and interests. And some of it was defining for myself what success looks like and then asking for what I needed during those times.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: So you completed that degree. And at the time you were an executive director working in an art space in the Lansing area. You were leading that work. And I'm sure that in the time that you were in the program, as you said, you were doing that work, and probably testing out some of the things you were learning from class into the work that you were doing. But talk to me about what you learned in that program, and how did it prepare you, not only for the work that you were doing then, but also the work that you do today?

Barb Whitney [00:09:21]: Oh, every step of the way, it was beneficial. The coursework ranged from revisiting art history, which is some of my background, to which actually offered us an international field trip to Toronto, which was incredible. One of the most memorable experiences of my schooling was a a field trip we all took to go see Toronto, and it was just remarkable, the camaraderie, the fellowship, the networking that it offered us through that process. But then also, I did do some nontraditional ways of working, which I think I've always done. When I was in undergrad, I took almost a year to travel with a national touring group, and it required some decision making and some thoughtfulness on the part of administration to allow for an exception. And U of M did that for me too. So I had an opportunity for a national research fellowship about arts education during my time at University of Michigan and learning and growing. And I said, Could I do this as part of my work with you? So they waived a grants course for me because I was writing grants and I was able to prove that I garnered several hundreds of thousands of dollars for Lansing Art Gallery and Education Center, where I was the executive director over the course of the previous couple of years.

Barb Whitney [00:10:41]: And then by waiving that, I was able to do an independent study that was a national research fellowship. And I don't know that every school would see the value in doing something so nontraditional as part of the work, but it ended up being that it dovetailed with my thesis as well, and that thesis continues to get traction. It's arts education as a fundamental right for youth in The United States. And so I see those when people read your thesis, you see it. And I get those notifications about people who are still using and citing my research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: That's always exciting to be able to have people reflecting back on work that you put so much time, effort into to be able to help the profession in some way. And I've had that same experience in work that I've done and things that I put out there. And when you get that ping that shows that someone's read it, you're like, Yay. So definitely I hear you and I feel that excitement that you have in that regard. Now, as you think back to the graduate education that you went through and you think about other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to other students? Whether it is going to someone that's going into the arts or something else, that could help them to find success sooner?

Barb Whitney [00:12:06]: I think if you have motivation to go back to school and you're thinking about doing it, there are many ways to make that possible. One thing I wished I had known about was a way to fund my education. My research that I mentioned helped me pay back my student loan within just a couple of years because I was receiving a stipend by doing my research fellowship. I didn't know fifteen years prior when I got out of my undergrad that I could do something like that. There are many ways of garnering resources that can help you go back to school to get your master's or to help you to go to school beyond your k 12 arts education experience. And then I would say too, if you're thinking about a career in the arts, it's so valuable to have a career in the arts because it offers you an opportunity to be with like minded people. We know some of the statistics about what the arts does for communities. It offers vibrant and thriving communities.

Barb Whitney [00:13:14]: It trains a dynamic workforce. When we look at creativity in the workforce and it being one of the top assets that employers are looking for, I think that just sort of undergirds the rationale for folks going back to school in the arts. We know that the arts offers better well-being and health in communities, and there are opportunities to go into sort of the arts and in so many different ways, the arts and healthcare, the arts and I mean, we know there are also lots and lots of creative opportunities and careers like architecture, any kind of music related career, and thinking about the ways that vibrant and thriving communities work, the arts are embedded in those efforts. So I think a career in the arts and the degree that are incredibly valuable. And I think a lot of cities and communities are recognizing that more and more too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:11]: Well, Barbara, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing the things that you learned and how you put them into place in your own professional career. And I truly wish you all the best.

Barb Whitney [00:14:24]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a transformative journey for many, but for Kevin Sellon, it became a bridge between his military service, personal challenges, and his passion for making a difference in the lives of others. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Kevin, a master's student in public administration at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his challenges and triumphs. Kevin shared invaluable insights about his decision to pursue graduate education, balancing life with a disability, and how his education empowered him for meaningful work in advocacy.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Kevin's path to graduate school was shaped by personal and professional experiences. After earning his associate's and bachelor's degrees, Kevin expected the doors of opportunity to open wide, but his journey took an unexpected turn when a job offer was rescinded due to his military-related disability. This experience sparked Kevin's resolve to better understand disability laws and advocate for others in similar situations. Supported by his family—particularly his wife—Kevin decided to pursue his long-standing goal of earning a master's degree. His choice also resonated with his passion for helping others, finding new purpose after military service, and advocating for the rights of individuals with disabilities.

Selecting the Right Program Choosing the University of Michigan Flint was both strategic and serendipitous for Kevin. After considering a few options, including Grand Valley State University, he was elated to receive his acceptance letter from U of M Flint. He admired the institution's academic excellence and flexibility, especially its distance-learning programs, which suited his needs both as a nontraditional student and an individual with a service-related disability. For Kevin, gaining acceptance felt like the beginning of a dream fulfilled—a step closer to achieving his master's degree.

Adapting to Graduate School Life Kevin's journey back into academia posed challenges, especially after an educational gap and balancing family, work, and school commitments. To set himself up for success, Kevin emphasized time management and self-care. By taking small, consistent steps—such as dedicating even fifteen minutes a day to projects—and allowing time to digest information, Kevin found ways to stay motivated. He highlighted the importance of stepping back to recharge, spending time with loved ones, and not overwhelming oneself with too much at once. These strategies helped him navigate the complexities of graduate education.

Disability Advocacy and Professional Growth As an employee of Disability Advocates of Kent County, Kevin directly applies what he learns in his master's program to his role. He educates both employers and individuals about ADA laws, ensuring mutual understanding and compliance. Beyond this, Kevin is spearheading a veteran-focused program where he assists veterans in managing their care and remaining in their homes—a fitting endeavor given his background and passion. His education has enhanced his ability to view problems holistically, process complex information, and meaningfully contribute to his organization.

Advice for Future Graduate Students Kevin emphasized the importance of seeking personal growth, even when faced with adversity. For individuals with disabilities, he encouraged them to take that leap into graduate education, as their unique perspectives are vital in advocacy and policy-making. Additionally, Kevin advised approaching large projects step by step and leveraging support networks, whether through family, mentors, or university resources.

Kevin's story demonstrates the profound impact of determination, resilience, and education. By leaning into his passion for advocacy and persevering through challenges, he's carving a new path of service and empowerment. His journey offers a valuable roadmap for anyone considering graduate school as a means of turning their personal experiences into actionable change for others.

Call to Action: To learn more about graduate opportunities at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms. And remember—your journey can lead to purpose and impact, just as Kevin's has.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it is a journey and you have made a choice. You've made a choice to start either start thinking about graduate school. You've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Maybe you're in graduate school right now, and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. It's a continuum that you're going to be going through to be able to take those steps one day at a time as you're working toward the goals that you've set for yourself. And that's why this podcast exists. I am so excited to have you here today to be able to help you on this journey because there are things that you can do right now, as you're listening, as you leave our conversation today, to be able to take those micro steps or macro steps that'll help you along that path to help you define success as you work toward that graduate degree. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences to be able to allow you to learn from what they've learned. And it could be positive things. It could be negative things too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: We'll be honest. Graduate schools can sometimes be challenging, can be hard. And that's another reason for that, for our conversations every week is that we want to keep it real. We want to have opportunities for you to be able to learn from what others have learned as well. And today we've got another great guest. Kevin Sullen is with us today. And Kevin is a current public administration student at the University of Michigan Flint. He has worked for many years with disability services and continues now working on his graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: And to get there, though, he got his first associate's degree at Tacoma Community College and then went on to the Evergreen State College to get his Bachelor of Arts while also being in the military and serving The US. And I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about his own journey, which led him to graduate school to help you on your journey. Kevin, Kevin, thanks so much for being here today.

Kevin Sellon [00:02:39]: Thank you for having me, doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:40]: It is my pleasure to have you here today. Really excited to be able to talk to you. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. So I want to go back. I said that you were in the military and I thank you for your service and I want to go back. I said that you got your associate's degree and your bachelor's degree out on the West Coast. And at some point after you got that bachelor's degree, after you left the military, you made a choice that you wanted to go back to graduate school. Bring me back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:15]: And what was going through your head and what made you decide that going to graduate school was the right choice at that point in time in your life?

Kevin Sellon [00:03:24]: Well, when I look back at it, when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I thought everyone's gonna be standing there with opportunities here. Take this. Take this. And I found it kind of that next purpose, I guess you could say. And the education that I received from Evergreen State College was leadership, entrepreneurship, and that was kind of the focus of that arts degree. And so I looked around a little bit and decided, well, I'm gonna try to get a a position with this company. I'll just keep it with that. And two weeks before I was to start training for this company, they revoked my offer of employment based strictly on the disability that I had from the military.

Kevin Sellon [00:04:06]: So at the time, I didn't know any organization like Disability Advocates of Kent County existed. So I had my journey of trying to prove a point. It was was the main thing. I was trying to prove to this organization that the Americans with Disability Act isn't just a policy, something that can be pushed away or anything like that. It's law. And why is it that it's so difficult for that to be followed for some employers? So my journey led me back to Michigan where I'm originally from after retiring out of the military. And while here, I I was working for another company as an expediter, and I decided my personal goal in life was to at least achieve a master's degree. So I just brought it up to my wife because I knew it was gonna be a strenuous journey at times.

Kevin Sellon [00:04:55]: So I brought it up with her, and she, of course, was very supported, and that was really my deciding factor on having her support while I take this journey. And while in the graduate school, I attended a class with professor Sachs on disability law and, the disability policy. Once I took that class, I just had this revelation, I guess you could say, of the same thing happened to me. And, again, I really got a deep dive into the law, and I forced myself to learn as much as I could. And then that's when I found Disability Advocates also that the position here that I have is as an ADA compliance, I guess you could say, employment assistant, I guess you could say. Because what we do is when people come in here and they have an issue with accommodation or something like that, I help educate the employer as well as the consumer that comes in to talk to me on what their rights are and what the employer's responsibilities are. Because it's not just also to protect the person with disability, but it also does protect the employer as well. So I try to work together educating those two, and that's what led me to this passion.

Kevin Sellon [00:06:04]: I really because it's a great law. It's been amended in 02/2008. However, I believe it does need a little bit more, I guess, for lack of a better word, a little more punch, you know, because it's so easy for employers to kind of get around that. And people, again, like I said, really don't know their rights when it comes to accommodations and whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: So you've now been in the program for a little bit of time. And as you decided to go to graduate school, you probably did some research. You looked around, you tried to determine what was going to be the best fit for you, and you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, and you are attending via distance. So talk to me about that process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint?

Kevin Sellon [00:06:57]: Well, if I was gonna get into a graduate school, I wanted it to be one that was noted as one of the best, if not the best. So, of course, being from Michigan, I know I saw that the University of Michigan, University of Michigan Flint were top, you know, with some of the top, schools when it came to public administration. So I decided, well, I'll send my application to the U of M Flint, and I probably won't get accepted just being the person that I am. And so I my backup plan was Grand Valley State. So those were the two schools that I was kinda looking at. Well, to my surprise, as I was getting my packet prepared for Grand Valley State, I got my acceptance to U of M Flint. And, to be honest with you, that the elation I was able to feel and, I guess, shock because, again, I had that negative kind of that I wasn't smart enough. I didn't think I was smart enough to attend the University of Michigan, but they believed in me.

Kevin Sellon [00:07:54]: So that was my decision. And to be able to get the first school for graduate school to accept you, to me, is just like, it was a present. It's like a great Christmas present that I could have gotten that I was able to realize the light at the end of the tunnel for my dream. You know, I actually coming true of having that master's degree and then also finding another purpose after the military where I can still continue to help people. That's, I think, the main thing, and working for a nonprofit was probably the best thing for me to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:25]: So you you found the program that you wanted to attend. You decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint. And as you transition into graduate school, this is a transition. And it had been a number of years since you had done your associates work, your bachelor's work, you went, you worked, you had your career in the military, you did some other work outside of that as well. And so there's, there was this education gap, right? You made this, you had to kind of get back into the mindset of being a student, as well as being able to be an employee at the same time and balancing family and work and school and all of those things. So talk to me about as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on in graduate school so far?

Kevin Sellon [00:09:21]: Well, to prepare for it, it was really me doing a little bit a little bit additional reading and whatnot on what I could find about the public administration. And then, of course, trying to decide what I wanted to my focus to be. And my focus as a public administrator would be, like, social and public policy. That was my deciding factor that I wanted to be a part of, just basically based off of what the ADA said. So I did a little bit of research there. I had a lot of back and forth with Helen Budd, who is the veterans representative at the Flint. And she what I found out, actually, got her degree from there, her MPA from the University of Michigan Flint as well. So to have her answer questions that I had from the nontraditional student that I believe I was coming in as a little older than some of them that were there, and she helped kinda settle my nerves when it came to that because she also had the same feelings when she went into grad school because she had a short period of time between her bachelor's and her master's as well.

Kevin Sellon [00:10:24]: And then, I decided to sign up for the mentee program to be assigned a mentor who had already been through, who could have been graduated already just to kind of because initially, again, like I said, I hadn't quite decided to work in the disability field, advocacy field. So, you know, just to find out where I should start looking for experience because that was the one thing that I felt might slow down my next career is I was getting the education, but how was I gonna get the experience? And that does lead to a lot some issues when it comes to employment. So I started volunteering around the community here in West Michigan and eventually turned into an internship at Disability Advocates, and then I get was hired full time. So and then to keep motivated through graduate school, for me, the motivating factor was having that support of my family and then being able to utilize what I was learning in the classes at my job because I started seeing the correlation between the two, how I could speak to the director and understand the finances that happen when it comes to a nonprofit or how to properly utilize research that I'm doing for the for the organization and how to address people with issues and also kinda snapping into that professional realm that I'm in now, problem solving and things like that. So

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:45]: so you're currently going through the program, you see that light at the end of the tunnel. And you're utilizing what you're learning in the program in this new career that you're in in this full time position as a disability advocate working for disability advocates in West Michigan. Talk to me about how you feel that the graduate degree has helped you, has prepared you for what you do on a daily basis.

Kevin Sellon [00:12:11]: The help that I received pursuing my degree has been almost immeasurable, to be honest with you. I mean, the way that I I'm able to look at even, say, the news. You know, the news can be pretty tumultuous at times and frustrating sometimes when you're watching news and world events and things like that. The ability to look at it though from public administrator standpoint and some things I can understand. You know, I know it was frustrating before, but now it's kinda like decoding, say, for instance, what the government is doing altogether. And using it here, it's actually benefited me in the fact that, again, I'm able to look at have a holistic view of somebody's problems that when I bring it up to the organization, they decided, since I am a veteran, that they were gonna try to take on a new program and which was to also assist with veterans. So we are starting up I'm gonna be the first veteran direct care counselor, options counselor that we're gonna have here at disability advocates because my director has the confidence just in conversation that we've had since starting here, and he sees the growth also and what I'm able to articulate. And so they were like, here's this program.

Kevin Sellon [00:13:26]: We're gonna give it to you. And, basically, what that program does is I sit down with a veteran, and they're given a budget from the VA. And it allows them to stay in their homes instead of being moved to a veteran's home or nursing home of some sort. So it allows them to decide their care, who their caregivers are gonna be, and then they become an employer. And they employ the person that that is gonna take care of them. It's called the veteran directed care, and I couldn't be more proud to even further my dream to help society, but also including the veteran that are part of that, especially them, and kinda get back to where I came from.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:07]: Well, congratulations on that. That's so exciting. And I look forward to hearing what happens next as that moves forward and as you continue to hone that and to to engage with veterans in West Michigan and beyond. Now, as you think about the graduate education that you've gone through thus far and you're going through currently, and you look back at the time that you've been in this and been working through it, and you think back to that, the transitions as well as the journey itself, What are some tips that you might offer other students, other people, whether they're thinking about a graduate degree in public administration or some other degree? What are some tips that you might want to offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Kevin Sellon [00:14:54]: The number one thing that I I personally had to learn also is taking time for yourself and just taking that step away even though because graduate school can seem I don't wanna say overwhelming because if you have your time scheduled out, time management is down. You just kinda take a step away and be with those that are important to you. And that was my main thing is as much as I kept wanting to read because, again, I wanna be a part of the discussions that each of the classes held, and I wanna contribute to class time and whatnot. So I would read, but then I also had to remember that while the sun's out or not, but it's time to take the dog for a walk. And you go out and just kinda get away and try not to inundate yourself with too much information that it gets lost. Like, for me, if I take in too much, I learned from my associates when I was studying to be an x-ray technician at that time, my anatomy class, I would study and study and study so much that it would almost feel like your head's gonna explode, but it's because I hadn't quite learned at that point how to step away. There is a time that I need to kind of digest what I just read or learned and then step back into it. And then also, another thing is even if it's fifteen minutes working on a project or something like that to give yourself peace of mind while working on a project through a semester, just take it in little steps.

Kevin Sellon [00:16:18]: Don't look at the big picture. Just take it in steps, refine it, move to the next step, refine it, and then move to the next step. That's kinda how I broke it down for myself because if I looked at the big picture, it could seem overwhelming at times.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:31]: Now one more thing that I wanted to ask before we finish up today is earlier you talked about the fact that, you know, you went through your own struggles throughout your education after the military, you know, not only with work and disability, but I'm sure that there was some challenges when it goes to education and going back to school and going to school with a disability as well. So talk to me about that and what you had to do to be able to balance your disability that you came out of your military service with, how that may have impacted your own education and what you might say to other students that may have disabilities that may be questioning, should I go to graduate school? Should I challenge myself in this way? You know, is it going to be too hard to be able to go through this educational process with this disability?

Kevin Sellon [00:17:22]: Well, first, I would say that to those with with disabilities, if you're thinking about graduate school, do it. I would say because you are a part of the community. And as we all know, any one of us at any time could be a part of the disabled community just with one wrong left turn. So I believe that we need more advocates that are that have various disabilities because, again, you can't lump it into one group because there's such a wide variety of it. And being a part of that and representing your place in society to promote this awareness and whatnot when it comes to employment, when it comes to transportation or education. We need more people in it to help advocate for the people that just don't seem to think that there's anything else out there. And as far as for me to get through my disability, again, that was part of the challenge for me was, I've I had to read things a few times due to, you know, possible TBI or or few hits to the head or whatever while I was in the military. And so they took a few times, and, again, it's just digesting what you have and taking your time.

Kevin Sellon [00:18:30]: And then that's why I have the headphones also is for my hearing. It helps me to actually hear when I'm on Zoom calls and phone calls even when I make that, actually hear when I'm on Zoom calls and phone calls even when I make that too. And which is why I think it was actually beneficial to take the courses at a distance also because I can turn it up or turn it down as I need to to hear the instructor a little better. Whereas, you know, when I was in person, I'd have to use my age old hearing aids and keep them turned up so I could hear. And sometimes those aren't easy to hear with either. So it just helps me with this, finding or even, like, searching, doing a Google search or whatever you wanna do of ways to alleviate something when you're taking a class. And just the opportunity to come to University of Michigan Flint, even through distance learning, I mean, I was so happy for the opportunity. Just instead of being stuck with universities, I shouldn't say stuck with, but having a limited choice of places to go to school due to locations or anything like that.

Kevin Sellon [00:19:29]: So I had plenty of practice because when I went through Evergreen State, it was during COVID. So the whole class schedule there was, of course, distance learning. So that kinda gave me a lot of practice for grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. I know you've been talking a lot about disability advocates of Kent County. If people wanna find out more about that, about you, where should they go?

Kevin Sellon [00:19:50]: I mean, if you wanna call us, actually, it's (616) 323-1100. That gets us our front desk, but we do have a site that's just being updated now by our great media team and, disabilityadvocatesdakc.com.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:06]: Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to help veterans, to help others with disabilities. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I wish you all the best.

Kevin Sellon [00:20:16]: Okay. Thank you so much, doctor, and have a good day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Unlocking Success in Graduate School and Beyond Graduate school is often described as a journey filled with challenges, growth, and triumphs. For Dr. Amber Schlemmer, a physical therapist and alumna of the University of Michigan Flint's Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) program, her path to success was anything but traditional. In a conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Schlemmer shared insights into her decision to pursue graduate school, the obstacles she overcame, and the critical lessons she learned.

Finding the Right Path Unlike many graduate students, Dr. Schlemmer didn't immediately decide to pursue further education following her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. A few years into her career as a personal trainer and strength coach, she realized that her scope of practice was limited when working with patients recovering from multi-trauma injuries. This sparked her interest in physical therapy, and through careful self-reflection, she determined this field aligned with her passion for understanding human capacity and rehabilitation. For prospective graduate students, her story underscores the importance of embracing life experiences and listening to your professional instincts when deciding to further your education.

Overcoming the Nontraditional Student Challenge Dr. Schlemmer's decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by her role as a nontraditional student. With a young family and deep roots in her community, relocating for a graduate program was not an option. She praised the proximity and high-quality faculty at U of M Flint, calling her program a "necessity" that ultimately became one of her biggest blessings. For students in similar scenarios, proximity, supportive faculty, and realistic planning can be key in managing academics and personal responsibilities.

Lessons to Thrive in Graduate Programs Graduate school demands a significant adjustment, requiring new habits and dedication. To succeed, Dr. Schlemmer emphasized effective study techniques and embracing the grueling pace of her courses. Her late-night study sessions at a 24-hour McDonald's highlight the importance of resilience and time management. Dr. Schlemmer believes that excelling in graduate school goes beyond academics—it's about forming critical thinking skills and learning to apply principles flexibly.

The Value of Practical Experience Dr. Schlemmer credited her clinical rotations for shaping her into the physical therapist she is today. Through real-world challenges and mentorship, she emerged with newfound confidence in critical thinking and decision-making within the profession. For future students, Dr. Schlemmer encouraged taking advantage of internships to explore diverse perspectives that enrich long-term career growth.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Dr. Schlemmer offered sage advice: do thorough research before applying to programs, maintain a well-rounded perspective, and remain adaptable as professional interests evolve. Graduate school may feel overwhelming at its peak, but she reassures students that the light at the end of the tunnel is worth the hard work.

A Worthwhile Journey As Dr. Christopher Lewis aptly described, graduate school is "a blip" in the grand timeline of one's life, but it is a transformational journey that prepares students for lifelong success. Dr. Schlemmer's story stands as a testament to resilience, adaptability, and the rewards that come with pursuing your passions. For aspiring graduate students, her journey serves as inspiration to embrace both the challenges and possibilities that lie ahead.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down and talk to you, work with you as we work through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you are just starting to think about maybe I want to do this graduate school thing or you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to prepare yourself to be successful in that journey, no matter where you are in that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: So that's why every week I love being able to have these conversations with you, to sit down with you, to talk with you, and to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have been able to go through graduate school themselves and have found success in that journey for themselves. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Amber Schlemmer is with us today. And, Amber is a graduate of the doctorate of physical therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did she ended up doing her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. And then, as I said, got a clinical doctorate at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that here in just a moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: But I'm really excited to have her here and to have her share some of her experiences with you. Amber, thanks so much for being here today. Thank

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:37]: you for having me, Christopher.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do is turning the clock back in time. I have the power.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:50]: I'd love to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Yes. So So we're gonna go back in time. And I said that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University. And at some point during that time that you were there, you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to get another degree. You wanted to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:02:14]: So, actually, funny story. It was not during my time at Michigan State that I decided to go to graduate school. So, as a matter of fact, as I was going through my program at, Michigan State, I was that I was a a a strength and conditioning coach for, Olympic sports at Michigan State. And so I absolutely loved what I did. I had full intentions of becoming either a a strength coach or remaining a personal trainer like I was because I absolutely love the so passionate about the the human capacity and what I saw those athletes do and grow into. And so I was very set that graduate school wasn't for me, and I was going to continue along the path that I set out with my undergraduate degree. And so it wasn't until about three or four years after I graduated actually when I was working as a personal trainer and I started to take on some more multi trauma patients, some auto accident patients who had had sustained an automobile accident and had some kind of ongoing physical impairments. And so I quickly realized that my scope of practice was kind of being exceeded, and there's a lot more to know out there than, you know, what I was giving these patients at the time.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:03:11]: And so that's kind of what started the gears turning for me a little bit about what else is out there. Maybe I do wanna consider doing something else, and I dabbled with PA and pharmacy and decided ultimately that, physical therapy was the most logical continuation of what I was doing. And it wasn't too far away from being able to experience that, the potential in the human capacity. And so that's kind of where I set out when I started to realize that there was a lot more to know than what I knew, and I wasn't happy with what I knew.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Now as you started to realize that and you started to figure out that there was more that you wanted to know, you decided that you wanted to apply to become a physical therapist, to be going into a clinical doctorate program in physical therapy. And there's a number of different programs throughout the state of Michigan and beyond that you could have selected from. And you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Bring me back to that point of that search process for yourself, that application process for yourself. What made you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was where you wanted to attend?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:15]: So I have a little bit of a different backstory. I was what you might consider a nontraditional student. So at this time, I had just had my son, who was my second. And so as I was deciding to go back to grad school because I hadn't planned on it previously, there's a couple of prerequisites that I needed. And so I I took them at U of M Flint, and I loved the campus. I loved the, you know, the classes. The professors were great there. And so you're right.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:37]: The DPT programs in in Michigan and really across the nation are pretty competitive. And so the law of averages states that you should apply to multiples, and I'd say upwards of, like, five to 10. Well, because I was this nontraditional student, proximity was very important to me. I had my home, my family, and unfortunately, we were not able to uproot ourselves and move to any of these programs across the state or across the nation. And so I put all of my eggs in the U of M Flint basket because I really appreciated the school, obviously, the location. I'm from a small town near Flint, called Flushing. And so, it's a fifteen, twenty minute drive for me. Right? And so as I started to apply to the different programs, I will say that I put my name in in the hat for at least two others just to kind of get my feet wet and understand what, you know, different programs are looking for, but I knew for sure that I wouldn't be able to, you know, accept those acceptances.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:05:25]: And so, U of M Flint was the the place for me, and I am so grateful. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, because I don't know if you know the statistics, but there's quite a few humans that don't get in the first time when they apply for for PT school. Right? And so I'm very fortunate to say that I was able to be accepted the first round and the stars had aligned, and I was able to begin the program. And so for me, it was unfortunately not so much a a choice as a a necessity, but, boy, did it work out for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: So as you go into a new educational environment for you, you had been out of school for a little bit of time. Now you're coming back into school. So there is a transition. There's a transition into graduate school. And then as you go along and through that graduate program, there are small transitions when you're going from year one to year two to year three and the expectations a little bit different as you go from term to term and what you're being expected to be able to do, to be able to prove to your faculty members to show that mastery within the subject area. So talk to me about, and you did find success in all of those different transitions. You ended up graduating, you got your degree, you've become a physical therapist. You've been out in the field for a number of years now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: So as you think back to those transitions that you went through, what did you have to do as you were transitioning into the program to find success? And what did you have to do as you were going through the entirety of the program to maintain that success within graduate school.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:06:51]: I will say I'm one of those fortunate humans who in high school I don't tell my 17 year old daughter this place. Through high school, I was never really one of those ones that needed to study a whole lot. School and academics kind of came naturally to me. I'm very fortunate to be able to say that, and I do realize even my time at Michigan State, it laid the foundation and the the habit forming, the habit development, in terms of, like, studying and, you know, preparedness. But boy, does it not hold a candle to graduate school and the and particularly the DBT program. So transitioning into the program was really not all that difficult. I was taking undergraduate level prerequisite courses. And so to me, that was just kind of par for the course.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:07:25]: I was used to that. I say all the time that I would be a forever student if there were any money in it. If I could go to school for the rest of my life, I would love that. But getting you know, once I was in the program, I will say that it it was kind of a good dose of reality, really, if I'm being honest, because DPT programs tend to front load some of their academics and, you know, front load some of their what turned out to be some of their tougher courses, your anatomy or physiology or kinesiology, some of your your higher, more advanced topics. And I would like to say, number one, to set the stage for the rest of your, you know, academic career, but also to kind of weave those friends out that maybe aren't as strong in those those areas because that's exactly what we do, you know, a % of our time as physical therapists. And so that first semester was definitely a little bit of a culture shock for me. I think I had stacks and stacks of note cards because this was before a computer generated all of these lovely study guides and and study aids and whatnot. So I handwrote all of my note cards.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:08:18]: I was studying more than I ever had in the past, obviously, but, yeah, this came with a little bit of a a nontraditional path for me. So I would get home, you know, make the kids dinner, go through our bedtime routine, get them to bed. And then in Flushing, the only thing that's open twenty four hours is a local McDonald's. And so I would go and have a a cup of decaf coffee and stay there till two or 03:00 in the morning. And boy, do you get to see some pretty interesting things at that time while you're back there studying. And so I think the biggest, transition for me really was just kind of the meat and potatoes of the the course load, especially in those first couple semesters. But once you have that foundation built, it makes for great success down the road in the program because that's where the, you know, the courses start to become a little bit more niche and dedicated towards, you know, pathways that you intend to take. So they're just a lot more focused, I guess, and less advanced concepts, more critical thinking, if you will.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:09:07]: And and if I'm being honest, that's where I really appreciate my time at U of M Flint because I feel like they made really great clinicians out of us, giving us that ability to critically think and kind of think outside the box a little bit, not just follow the textbook, not just I say all the time in my my clinic that patients and their their impairments don't often read the textbook. Meaning, it's not like a list of impairments or a list of conditions. Right? That's you know, we have comorbidities that play a role and lifestyle behaviors that play a role in how patients present. And so it was a great skill to have to be able to think outside the box a little bit more, and I can certainly thank my professors for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:39]: You know, as you think back to graduate school, there are things that you learn along the way that prepare you for the work that you do. And you're in a career area that is kind of lockstep in regard to you're studying to be a physical therapist, you become a physical therapist and you learn in the program, leads you to being able to do what you're doing. But there's also things that you learn within a program that may not be the tangible things that you're doing on a daily basis. So as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about the work that you're doing now on a day to day basis, how did that graduate degree prepare you for the next steps? And were there any things that you had to learn beyond graduate school that you did not learn that you wish you had learned in graduate school?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:10:21]: So I will say that the especially the U of M Flint DPT program trained me very well to be a well rounded clinician. Right? And this is obviously one of those professions that you have to have a license, you have to have a degree in that profession in order to practice. And so they they certainly did their job in terms of curriculum, making sure that students were prepared before they went out in their clinical, internships, the rotations. I will say that I think outside of the nuts and bolts that were learned in the program itself, the three ten week clinical rotations that we did, I think were absolutely integral. And for me specifically, I had one clinical instructor for my last rotation who really challenged me. And I will say, I went home after almost every single day of this clinical rotation just a level of exhaustion that you can't imagine. Right? There's a different level of physical and and mental exhaustion. This was literally everything.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:11:12]: And so I had never really experienced that, but it was because she was really challenging me and making me critically think about why we're choosing every single exercise and what that's gonna do for this patient and why it's so important for this patient. Because if we get two hours a week with this patient, which is more than most medical professions can tell, we have a really great opportunity to make a pretty big impact on their lives and certainly on their pain or injury status. So I'm really appreciative of not only the faculty, but those humans that continue to host students and teach the next generation of physical therapists. We we actually currently, have two in our clinic right now at primary prevention, and so hopefully, they're getting the best experience as well. So I will say the clinical rotations were great. Throughout the program, I will say that I knew I wanted to open my own practice. I knew that, you know, I didn't wanna work for one of the bigger companies that, you know, productivity is the standard and we're, you know, looking for, you know, how many patients we can see an hour and not the outcomes or how much better we can make that patient. And I will say, disclaimer, not every single clinic is like that, but we've had our experiences.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:11]: Right? So throughout the program this was in our last year of the program. The curriculum since changed a little bit since I've been there, but we had to take a management class, so business management class. Throughout that class, we had to create a business plan. We had to do a full proforma. We had to basically create a clinic. And so I looked at my group who no one else had intentions of opening their own clinic. And I looked at my group and I said, do you guys think it's okay if we do this for, like, Flushing, Michigan area for my clinic? I'll give you all the information. And so we can sit down and create this.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:38]: To me, it's much more tangible than a hypothetical clinic that we're about to create. Right? And so a little bit of strategy there in terms of my classmates help me write my business plan. Right? But ultimately, learning more about what it means to be a private practice owner and how that differs from being your clinical PT, basically. I will say I'm very much a PT first, very much a businesswoman second, but I'm learning quite a bit. And I and I appreciate that course for what it taught me in in terms of making sure that I had my ducks in a row before I really launched this beast that we've opened here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Now as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about other students, whether they're going into physical therapy or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals thinking about graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:13:25]: Number one, I would say do your research, be prepared. Each clinical program offers something a little bit different. I chose, you know, U of M Flint for proximity reasons, of course, but like I said, boy, did that work out for me in terms of, I had some of the best faculty working under doctor Amy York and doctor Ryan Bean. And, you know, while I was there, doctor Tom Rudiger was there. And, oh my goodness, I'm I'm leaving out a few, so please don't don't hold me to just those humans. But we have a really, really great faculty there. So be prepared. Do your research.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:13:57]: Make sure that that program is where you see yourself in five to ten years in terms of their strengths and what they're touting throughout their program. Ultimately, though, what we said throughout our program was, hey, get the degree first. Right? And then we'll kind of decide where we wanna be. It's okay to kind of narrow your focus as you go through school, but maintaining that ability to be well rounded and not have a specific niche coming right out of school will allow you that opportunity to see physical therapy from quite a few different lights. Right? And so it will keep you from being stuck in that first job if that's how you feel. Right? I think the statistic is that, you know, eighty percent of new grads stay in whatever field or whatever, you know, pathway they took directly out of school. So if you start as an outpatient orthopedic physical therapist, you're likely gonna stay there for your career. Right? If you started as a neurotherapist, you're obviously gonna try to stay there for your career.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:14:45]: It just allows you to be a little bit more, I don't know, niche and focused once you get out of school. But coming out of school, try things. Go to those clinics where you're able to see a a wide patient caseload just so you can start to pick up on trends and, like I said, see things from a little bit of a different lens. During school or, you know, after the application process, after you've been accepted, you've been accepted into a graduate program. Graduate programs are not easy. They're not intended to be easy. They're intended to make the best of the humans that set out to become part of that profession. And so while it seems like there's no light at the end of the tunnel, while it seems like in the especially in the first couple semesters that this is a level of challenge that you maybe have never really seen in your life.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:15:24]: Know that, boy, is it worth it. And as long as you put your head down, you get to work, you do the work, you know, you really try to learn things from a deeper perspective, and it's gonna pay off in the end. And there certainly is light at the end of the tunnel. It's it's a short three years, believe it or not.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: It definitely is a short period of time. And I always tell students that it that graduate school is definitely a blip. And as you go through that education, you wanna take as take as much out of it as you can because it's a period of time where you can explore, you can try things, you can do things that once you dive into your career, you may not be able to do. So taking full advantage of all of the opportunities that exist and are provided to you is so important. Agreed. Well, I truly want to say thank you, Amber, for being here today, for sharing your experience and for all that you're doing to help people in your own community and being a great representative of our program out in the world. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:16:23]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Inclusive excellence is redefining the landscape of higher education, emphasizing the intentional and purposeful work that fosters diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in every corner of academia. Dr. Juanita Tookes, in conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, brings to light the multifaceted aspects of inclusive excellence (IE) and its transformative potential on campuses. Here's a deeper dive into the key takeaways from their enlightening discussion.

Defining Inclusive Excellence: The Foundation of Inclusion

Dr. Tookes articulated IE as "consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in post-secondary education." Diversity captures the richness in human differences, equity ensures resources are tailored to individual needs, inclusion fosters empowerment and acceptance, and belonging extends inclusion to form deep, authentic connections. Together, these components create a cohesive and supportive environment in higher education.

IE is more than just a concept. It is the seam that ties the entire fabric of a collegiate institution together. Much like a well-constructed garment that fits impeccably, an inclusive campus environment makes every student feel seen, valued, and heard.

IE in Action: Where Inclusion Finds its Voice on Campus

Dr. Tookes highlighted the presence of IE in three fundamental areas—policies, practices, and pedagogy. Policies such as anti-discrimination and accommodations for students with disabilities are vital for equitable access. Practices, ranging from recruitment and retention efforts to resource allocation, ensure inclusivity in all aspects of student life. Inclusive pedagogy emphasizes open, diverse teaching methods that allow every student's voice to be acknowledged.

Dr. Tookes also revealed surprising areas where IE impacts students directly. From equitable dining options that respect cultural dietary needs to events tailored for diverse backgrounds and schedules, IE extends far beyond the classroom.

The Call to Action: How Students Can Practice and Promote IE

Students, too, play a pivotal role in championing IE. Dr. Tookes encouraged graduate students to practice intrapersonal reflection, expand their perspectives, and maintain cultural dialogues that celebrate diversity. Promoting IE involves supporting inclusive policies, getting involved in community programs, and actively engaging peers in meaningful conversations.

A Collective Responsibility for an Inclusive Future

Inclusive excellence is a shared journey between educators, students, and administrators, fostering a culture where every individual thrives. Dr. Tookes' compelling insights challenge us all to embrace inclusion with open minds and committed hearts to bridge gaps and build transformative academic experiences for everyone.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining us as we continue with our Graduate Student Success Series. I'm really excited to have you here today because every time that we come together, there are opportunities for us to learn and to be better in the journey that we are on as students, as graduate students, and the learning that we are hoping to be able to pull out of this experience. And graduate school can definitely challenge you and in many ways can be challenging in many ways for you, can be stressful. There's a lot of balance issues. There's more. And today, we're gonna be talking about something brand new that we haven't talked about before. We're talking talking about inclusive education, and this is a framework that holds all members of the higher education community accountable for ensuring that academic success is possible for every student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]: So this is really important, and that's why I'm so excited that you're listening today. You're watching today and you're here to be a part of this because we have Doctor. Juanita Tookes with us today. And, Doctor. Tookes is our CAPS assistant director. And we've had her on before, but this is a brand new topic. I'm really excited to be able to have her here to talk to you and to learn from her today. Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: Hooks, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:31]: I'm just happy to be a guest. I am so excited, to be here. I'm always excited to talk to grad students. It's an experience that I will never forget. So I hope just for a little while, you'll, indulge me by just listening to me because hopefully you can take at least one thing away from what what I say today. So today we're gonna be talking about inclusive excellence. And just like what doctor Lewis said, this is a brand new topic, that challenged me to do some thinking. I presented on several different types of things multiple times before, but inclusive excellence is brand new.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:05]: So I was really happy to delve in, and create this presentation for you. Okay. So this is how things are gonna flow. First, we're going to define inclusive excellence. I'm going to refer to that as IE. And then we're also gonna talk about its role and impact. After that, we're gonna play a little bit of I spy to see where does IE show up on campus. What does that look like? Following that, we're gonna talk about how to practice and promote IE, and then we're gonna wrap up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:37]: Then if there's any questions or comments, I'll be more than happy to address those. And if there are none, then I will give you my best wishes, and and final thoughts. Alright. So is it me or yeah. So this is me in grad school, and, this is about probably about four or five years ago. And as a doctoral student, I went to Oakland University. As a doctoral student, I distinctly remember experiences where I was not given the same opportunities for professional development, and success as my peers. I remember a specific experience where I stepped into my instructional theory class.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:24]: I was already burned out. This is probably about two and a half, two I I believe my second year, in the program around that time. And I was already burned out from the previous semesters. But I was excited because I was learning how to teach. When I was in my doc program, I knew that I was gonna be a full time university professor. That's the track that I was on. And so, even though I was really, really tired, I was really excited about this class because I wanted to teach. So learning how to teach, I thought, was very exciting.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: So according to my program guidelines, this course was a prerequisite. It was a required prerequisite for teaching any course, which I would later have to do as a grad student anyway as a part of my internship. So imagine how I felt when I found out that, in my small cohort of four people where I was one of two students of color and the only black woman, I noticed that information about advancement was given to my peers who are white. But for students of color like me, it felt like an obstacle course to get that same information. This was very frustrating. It was very annoying because it seemed as though information that was easily given to others, I had to work to get. And it made me feel like, why am I not privy to the same information in the same way? Why why do I have to work harder to get, you know, that information? And there was multiple experiences of this, you know, for me throughout my grad school experience. And it embedded in me this message that I will always have to work, quote, unquote, 10 times harder to achieve the same level of recognition, respect, acknowledgement, and advancement, not just in college, but in life.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:24]: I know that as a black woman in my community, when we say 10 times harder, what that means is that you'll never have you're never gonna have the same start point. Like, you're always gonna be behind, and you're gonna have to hustle, and you're gonna have to grind, and you're gonna have to hurry so that you can catch up with everyone else, you know, to get, you know, the same types of resources, experiences, treatments, things like that. So, the point of this story, as far as my own personal narrative, is that inclusive excellence is more than just a concept. I think students may hear this phrase or this term about inclusive excellence, but I don't think they understand how that impacts them. IE, is intentional and purposeful work that involves consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging, in post secondary education. Understanding each of these aspects of inclusive excellence is key in understanding your student experience. So what I'm really excited about doing today is helping you understand how inclusive excellence impacts you as a student. As a higher education professional, I've observed that when IE is discussed, college students are not as present and representative as, they're not as present and representative in those conversations as they should be.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: And this is why students feel as though IE doesn't is not associated with them because they're not present in the conversation enough. And so I hope that with this webinar, this informal invitation, to invite you to a conversation about inclusive excellence will help you to understand just how important it is as a factor that helps to shape and molds your overall student experience. So let's talk about some major keys when we talk about IE. So we have diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. I know we've all heard these terms before, but I want you to think about these terms in relation to inclusive excellence. Right? So just some brief definitions here. Diversity is the, countless dimensions of human difference, right, with a broader view towards different perspectives. We also have equity, eliminating barriers that prevent equivalent access or full participation of all individuals.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:48]: We also have inclusion, conditions where all individuals feel accepted, safe, empowered, and affirmed. Then we have belonging, which I look at as an extension of inclusion as well. The emotional state where individuals feel a true sense of group connection as their authentic selves. And notice that in between these circles are plus signs. Right? So diversity plus equity plus inclusion plus belonging. Like, these are major keys that all factor into inclusive excellence. So I thought it was very important because I know when I first got introduced to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, I always got equity and equality. It's not that I got them mixed up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:38]: I thought that that that they were the same and they're actually not. So I wanted to take a second to make sure that we understand the difference between equality and equity. So when it comes to equality, equality is this idea that everyone is given the same resources and opportunities to thrive. Everyone gets equal treatment regardless of their circumstances. Everybody gets the same. Right? Regardless of what background you have, everyone gets the same thing. When we talk about equity and how that's different than equality, equity recognizes that individuals do have different backgrounds. Right? They have different backgrounds.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:20]: They have different needs. And because of this difference, the way that resources are allocated, they're based off of those needs so that whatever that is as far as the person's unique needs are, they have an opportunity to receive resources that can help them be successful. So, again, remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. With equity, it recognizes that because people have different needs and may require different kinds of things in order to be successful, those things are going to be provided based off of what your unique needs are. So some people in groups face more hardships than others, different circumstances that make things more challenging, like goal achievement even with very hard work and perseverance. So equity attempts to identify the imbalances and find find ways to restore fairness and justice. So I don't know how familiar everyone is, but there, this is a very common image to show the differences between equality and equity. And I'm a visual learner.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:26]: So a good picture always helps me as far as, having things really deeply resonate. So if we look on the left, we'll see a picture of equality. Right? So remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. You can see that these people are at different heights. You know, they're different weights. You have people standing behind the fence. They all have the same box. They all have one box.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:50]: It doesn't matter that you're taller than me. It doesn't matter that you can see further than I can. It doesn't matter about any of those things. We all get the same box that's at the same height, and that's that. Now notice that the smaller person can't see over the fence at all. So even though I have the same box as you and you have the same box as the next person, I can't see anything. The person who's the tallest can see everything. The person in the middle can see some things.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:16]: So when we talk about success, how successful can we actually be if if we're just treated like we all have the same kinds of needs? That's the beauty in differences. There is a beauty in difference. You know? It's nothing to be ashamed about if you need resources or aid or help because the goal is for you to be successful. So if you look at the image on the right, we have boxes, but we can see that everybody may not need a box. Depending on what their unique needs are, they may not need a box. They might need more boxes. They may need less boxes. But at the end of at the end of this, we can see that they all can see over the fence.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:54]: They're all at, you know, the same level in order to see, even though in order to see over the fence, they might need different or more resources. So let's talk about the role and impact of inclusive excellence. So every garment because I, you know, I love clothes. So that's where this example is coming from. But every garment has a seam, right? As you can see in the pair of blue jeans right there, a seam is very, very important to a garment because it joins and holds different parts of that garment together. Not only does the seam join and hold, but it also contributes to the overall fit and the design of the garment. Without a seam, everything falls apart. You can't wear not one piece of clothing without a seam.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:39]: So just like a well constructed garment, I want you to think of IE as the seam that joins and holds together every part of a collegiate institution. I want you to think of your educational environment as the design and your student experience as the fit. And now I want you to think and this is not just because I went on, a shopping spree just the other day and everything was well in the world and everything fit right. But I really want you to think about how you feel when you try something on and it fits just the way that you want it. It looks great. It feels great. A great fit as far as a garment. It increases your confidence and increases your satisfaction with yourself and the garment that you're purchasing.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:24]: It, increases your comfort and it gives you a sense of presence wherever you go, because you know, when you step outside in this outfit, you are going to be seen. Okay. And so what I want you to think of as far as, like, your student experience is I want you to look at your student experience as a good fit. That's what we want here at U of M Flint. We want students to come to our environment, come to this collegiate design, you know, of an educational space, and we want you to feel confident. We want you to feel satisfied and comfortable being here, and we want you to feel visible. We want you to feel seen. We want you walking around just like this lady who is very happy with her shirt and her pants.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:09]: Like, being a U of M Flint student, we want you to walk around knowing that this is a very, very good fit for you. Alright. So let's play just a little bit of I spy with my little eye. Okay? Where does IE show up on campus? Now the reason why I think this is very, very important is because when it comes down to inclusive excellence, again, I think this is a term that students might be familiar with, but I'm even more sure that students probably are not familiar with it. And if they are familiar with the term, I don't think students are as familiar as to how IE shows up in their everyday student lives because it's all around us. Inclusive excellence is like air. Like, even though you may not be able to see it, it is everywhere and it can impact just how you experience an environment. So let's start with the three P's.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:05]: Okay. The three P's are places where people know inclusive excellence can show up or may not show up. But here at U of M Flint, it definitely does show up. So policies, inclusive, inclusive policies ensure that all students have equitable access to resources, student support services and opportunities while addressing barriers related to race, ethnicity, gender, disability, SES, and other factors. Some examples of different policies, that kind of, are inclusive of everyone and what their needs might be. Our policies, as far as anti discrimination policies and also policies centered on accommodations for students with disabilities. These are perfect. Now again, remember what I'm trying to do is make something so big and foreign, something very close and relatable to you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:02]: Accommodations is something that I have worked with before, as a higher education professional. And there's policies around accommodations because we wanna make sure that students have what they need to be successful. You know? And so that's why I'm really happy, and and so happy to, have worked so closely with the DAS office, because the disability and accessibility support services office to make sure that if students need help being successful in their classes, they have a place to go to get them what they need to be successful. Let's talk about practices. Now, when I mentioned policies, I want you to think of words. Words because that's really what policies are. They're words and manuals and things like that. Practices are those words in action.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:50]: Right? So practices are the activities, events, and the initiatives that help shape student life, academic culture, and community. So examples, because I love a good example. Okay. So like recruitment and retention efforts. I really hope that this is resonating with you as far as how inclusive excellence impacts and involves you. I want you to remember how you found out about U of M Flint through recruitment, or efforts to make sure that you stay here and that you're happy here. Student orientation. You don't think IE is all up and through there because it definitely is.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:32]: Also sustainability efforts. You know, how does the campus, work hard to make sure that, you know, things that are relative to the earth are preserved and that we know about this information, as well as resource allocation, like scholarships, for example. All of this has I e interwoven into the fabric of these different practices and policies. Now let's talk about pedagogy, which is the third P. So inclusive pedagogy focuses on creative teaching strategies and learning environments that meets the needs of all students. Okay? So we're talking about techniques of teaching and learning. And so regardless of your background or ability, depending on how a professor, because this is kind of what we're talking about now, is how does a professor, teach? What is their what is their methods of teaching? This is why I was very excited about the course that I took, because I learned about how to create my syllabus, how to create my classroom activities. How do I create a space that includes everybody's, point of view, background? How can I make students feel seen in my classroom? And when I was a grad student teaching as an intern and when I later became a professor and started teaching, this was the most exciting part of teaching for me, was how to set up my class so that when students would walk in, whether they were in person or virtual, they would feel like they belong.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:02]: They can see a part of themselves in my class, either in my class assignments or in my syllabus or the content we were reading as far as, like, books, articles. I wanted everyone to feel seen, visible, understood, heard. I wanted everyone to use their voice. So it was very exciting to become creative, as an educator in that way. Because, again, the way that a teacher teaches, it shapes your experience. Now let's let's step outside of college for just a second, and talk about, pedagogy as far as what happens when these things are when a student doesn't feel included. So when I was like in K through 12, which was many moons ago. Okay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:44]: So now we're we're we're talking about back before, back I think I went to high school, like in 1999. Look. It was just a long time ago. Okay. So I remember, the textbooks that we had when I was in k through 12 were really old. They were old. They were outdated. It did not reflect, me as a black student, as an African American student.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:08]: Everything that we learned was based off of people who were white. So history, for example, I had no idea what kind of contributions, black people made, you know, to different things like inventions and things that we use every day. I, it took, it took a minute for me to discover these things. And a lot of times it was outside of the classroom because what was being used inside of the classroom was not representative of me and it was not accurate as far as my culture. And so I went without knowing this information, only looking at the world in one particular way when there were so many other things to look at that could affirm me, you know, and my identity. So this is what happens when when pedagogy is not inclusive. You have people looking at things in a very narrow and accurate way that might make them feel inferior or bad about themselves because when they look around, they don't see themselves. So that's why it's very, very important to to be mindful about pedagogy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:11]: And I'm gonna explain why that relates to you in a minute. I know I was talking about teaching and professors and things like that, but this still relates to you, grad student. It still relates to you, and I'm gonna tie it all together just to let you know just how in just a second. Okay. Student conduct hearings. Now I know that as far as this part of the presentation, we're gonna talk a little bit about student conduct and title nine. And you might think that this part of the presentation doesn't apply to you, but I beg to differ. And I encourage you just to keep your ears open, because as we, you know, go through this, you'll learn that IE is so much bigger than just how you're treated in a classroom.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:53]: It's so much bigger than that. I know we talked about pedagogy just a few minutes ago. But it's so much bigger than just a classroom. Okay? It's about your interactions with this entire campus. And I'm gonna show you. Like, I'm gonna show you just how big IE is, you know, outside of the classroom. So when we talk about student conduct hearings, typically these issues are handled, in the office of the Dean of Students. And these adjudication procedures are based off of systemic judicial processes to determine who should be held responsible for something.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:28]: Now, why is this important for you to know? Right? I, you know, I really do feel for students who have to go through student conduct hearings, whether you are the person who did something or you are the person that something has been done to. I always feel for students who are in these types of situations. This is why it's very, very important that you listen as far as how does IE show up in these types of situations, whether you find yourselves in them or know someone who has gone through this. Historically, legal proceedings have often been biased against BIPOC individuals. Right? So black indigenous people of color, it hasn't weighed out in our favor historically. Hearing procedures are generally based on law enforcement practices that are seen out in society with some, you know, with some adjustments. When you've had experiences of inhumane and unfair treatment by the law involving racism and discrimination and violence and presumptions of guilt. You're facing juries and certain groups of people that have this deciding power, but no one in these groups share your identity.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:44]: It's understandable then that as a student, if you find yourself in a situation like this, you might fear an unfair hearing process. So how does this break down? Right? I know in my culture, you know, as a black woman, part of the black community, a lot of people in my culture don't trust the law, don't trust the police. When we think about the social injustices that have occurred in our world, so many of people with skin color like mine have died at the hands of the police unjustly. And there was no punishment for that for the people who did it. So what kind of message does that communicate then to me about the law? It makes me feel like the law is not here to help me. The law is here to help somebody, but not people like me. I remember getting pulled over by the police last year. I was driving down the street, and I got pulled over for speeding.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:44]: I was going a little bit over, and I got pulled over for speeding. And I remember it was a white male cop who had pulled me over. And I just remember feeling afraid. I had never had this experience in my life. I consider myself a good driver, so I've never had I've never been pulled over. But I remember feeling afraid. And the reason why I felt afraid is because everything that I have seen on the news and on social media about Breonna Taylor and Sandra Bland and Eric Garner, like, I felt afraid. And that was a very eye opening experience for me.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:21]: And this is how many people of color feel, individuals who are of of the BIPOC community. When you see things like this, it embeds this message that the law is not here to help you. The law is going to hurt you. In some cases, kill you. So if I am a student in a situation where I'm in a student conduct hearing and student conduct hearings mirror what I'm looking at as far as legal proceedings in society, then I'm gonna go in there thinking that this isn't gonna this isn't gonna go well for me. If something has happened to me at the hands of someone else who is white, that person might not get punished at all. You know? Or if I am a woman and, you know, a man has done something to me, maybe just because I'm a woman, this is not gonna this is not gonna work well for me. Like, I'm not this isn't gonna be in my favor.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:14]: Or even vice versa, on the other side. Even if you are someone who has done something, you know, for whatever reason, you might I it just really breathes my heart to think that people have already thought that they lost when they walk into these types of situations simply because of the color of their skin. They lost. Like, they're not gonna evaluate me fairly. Like, I've already lost. And so IE ensures that everyone involved, no matter what side you're on, you're gonna receive fair and equitable treatment. That doesn't mean that you're gonna get an automatic outcome that you like, but it does mean that the process involved as far as assessing the situation, hearing, you know, all of the information and looking at all of the evidence, all of that is gonna be done fairly, fairly and equitably. Let's talk a little bit about Title IX because I know that students have heard about title nine.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:13]: You know, we have a title nine office. But, again, I don't wanna assume that just because you've heard of title nine that you know what that is. And, again, the goal is to show you just how many places that IE shows up on campus. So title nine, like, I could have this a whole webinar on title nine alone, but I'll give you kind of the short version of title nine. Title nine is a federal federal civil rights law that was passed in 1972. And this law protects students from discrimination based on sex and educational programs and activities and settings that receive federal funding. Okay? And so when it comes down to Title IX, it's one of those things to whereas inclusive excellence ensures that not only are women given equal opportunities in education and athletics compared to men, but also that all genders, including non binary individuals, are considered and provided equitable access going beyond just the binary of male and female, thus creating a more inclusive environment for all students to feel safe and protected and respected and seen. Right? So, again, I want you to think of all of these terms that I've mentioned so far as far as, like, student conduct hearing, title nine, the pre p's, policies, procedures, policies, practices, pedagogy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:39]: I want you to look at this with a new lens because now I want you to look at these things that you may have heard about, and now you're learning more about through the lens of inclusive excellence. Right? Stay with me. We're going somewhere. We're going somewhere. Now let's talk about some more places that that IE shows up. Campus dining. Now, again, I want you to really understand just how IE is everywhere, especially here at U of M Flint. We wanna make sure that students know that we see you, that we wanna learn more about you, and that we you feel like you are represented here on this campus.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:16]: So campus dining, how does IE show up here? By providing a diverse range of eating experiences and options for our students that cater to, different dietary needs, cultural backgrounds, creating a welcoming and respectful environment for all students and actively engaging students to understand and address their concerns in relation to their diet and nutrition, and making sure that everybody feels included as far as being able to have access to meals that align with your beliefs and your preferences as far as food. Now I know that you may not have thought that inclusive excellence was involved in that, but it is. And we actually have so many different campus events, which is another place where IE shows up, where we want students to know that, hey. We realize that this means a lot to you. We wanna make sure that you feel like this is a second home away from home, especially with our international student populations where you can be hundreds of miles, thousands of miles, hundreds of thousands of miles away from your family. We want a little piece of your home to be here. And that's why campus events are very important. So designing and implementing events that are welcoming, except accessible.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:30]: So even when we have different events, and we try to see depending on if the event, if we can hold it, if if if it can be recorded and viewed later, if it can be accessible online. I've been a part of events where people would show up live, but there will also be an online option for our online community. Students who may not be on campus, or who may live far away from campus, they're still able to enjoy the event because now we've provided it on two different platforms. It can't always be done that way, but that's why when it comes down to programming, we try to create programming with accessibility in mind, you know, because that's all a part of IE. So making sure that our events are relevant to students, staff, and faculty regardless of background, identity, ability, ensuring that everyone feels included and valued, you know, in the campus community. I remember I was working at another institution and, I remember that, I worked for a medical school and medical school goes all year round. It's pretty intense. And I remember that students who, engage in Ramadan were very concerned because given the toughness of the curriculum, which we're going to be talking about in just a second too.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:48]: But talking about the curriculum, the students were really concerned about if anything could be done that could be accommodating to their schedule as far as Ramadan. And I know that this was not an immediate change, but before I left that institution, so much had been done to take into consideration students who do engage in Ramadan to make sure that they still had equal access to take exams, to attend study sessions. And they were so so happy and grateful about that. But I was happy and grateful that they used their voice, to voice their concerns to higher ed administration so that we can advocate and help support students to say, hey. We should not we should not be doing practices and things to make these students feel like they have to sacrifice something that is so spiritually important for them. Like, how can we accommodate that? And it took a little it took a little time, but it got done. And that's just one example of how campus programming, policies, pedagogy, events, dining. Some of these things can be a work in progress and can can take a little time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:55]: But once it gets done, it's something that is it it's embraced by all, and we all feel really, really great about it. And this is an example for, the lighting up the night event, that was held in November. This is something that we were really excited about. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend, but this was another example of how just bringing a little bit of home here, can help students feel like they really, really belong. And that what's important to them is also important to us. Okay. So now that we've talked about IE and where it shows up, let's talk about as a grad student, how can you practice inclusive excellence? Oh, yes. There is a practice portion.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:38]: It's not enough to just know. Right? Once you know, then you gotta do. So how would a grad student practice, inclusive excellence? Now I know that everyone is coming from different educational backgrounds and fields of study and things like that, but you might find yourself in a position where you are either teaching like I was, you know, as a grad student for my internship, or you might have a student facing type of position or learning experience that you might have to do. And even if you're not teaching, these these practices can still apply to you in some way, shape, or form. So let's talk a little bit about intrapersonal awareness. Now there's a difference between intrapersonal and interpersonal. Intrapersonal is inside of you. Interpersonal is your interactions with someone else.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:29]: But I'm glad we're starting with this because it all starts with you. It starts with you first and then it goes and flows out. Right? So interpersonal awareness is understanding the nature of your worldview. Right? And how that was created. Reflecting on your ideas, experiences, values, biases, and assumptions, and being open to learning about other cultures and the experiences and narratives of other people. We do not often think about how our perspective on the world came to be. It did not just appear. Your experiences have come to light based off of how they were constructed.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:09]: Like, there is a phenomenon called constructivism in mental health where it basically says that the way that you look at the world, it was developed and built and constructed over time based off of your experiences and interactions, you know, in the world. And we all have different views because we all have different experiences. But I don't think we think about the experiences that we've had and how that factors into how we look at other people and how we look at the world and everything that goes on in it. We do have to examine ourselves for biases because we all have them. Okay? So don't feel bad. Don't feel ashamed. We all have biases. We just wanna make sure that we're keeping those things in check because we wanna make sure that biases are not playing out in a discriminatory way or you're making assumptions about people, based off of what you think you might know or assumptions that you have made or misinformation that you might have heard.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:01]: You wanna make sure that you are examining yourself first and understanding where you come from, what you've been through, how that affects your view, and also being aware that your view is not the only view. So being open to expanding that view to include information from other sources, AKA other people. Interpersonal awareness. Right? Accepting invitations to participate in cultural dialogues where you can listen, stare, ask, express, and learn from the narratives of other people. So one thing that I want you to be aware of with interpersonal awareness is as you learn about others, you are also teaching simultaneously simultaneously. So you are learning from other people about their lived experiences, but other people are also learning from you because you are the expert in you and what you've been through. You are the teacher. There's no one else that can teach you about what you've been through.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:58]: You are the teacher, but you also have to be willing to be a student and listen. And a lot of times we think that just because we know about our experience, that makes us an expert in the experience of someone else. And that is not true. That is absolutely not true. You are your only teacher who can only teach in one subject. That is you. You cannot teach the subject of another another person. Curriculum transformation.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:23]: Right? This is how, I was talking a little bit about before about my excitement about setting the tone and the environment for my classroom. Curriculum transformation involves what kind of changes are you going to make to, to how things are being taught, you know, in education and being done, you know, in education? How are we gonna transform that to make that a lot more, you know, inclusive? As a higher education professional, I have been a part of many task forces and many different groups. I've sat in many different meetings based off of this right here. How are we gonna change the curriculum to make it more accessible, make it more inclusive, make it more open, make it more representative that involves professors, you know, updating their syllabi, changing language. That's been outdated. What kind of materials, you know, are you using? Is it accurate? You know, And sometimes curriculum transformation can take time. But the benefit is really, really big. So before I got into my doc program, when I applied the first time, I was rejected.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:31]: Felt very, very bad. Like, felt very, very bad about that. What I learned after I got in, because that didn't that didn't stop me. Right? I applied again, got in. But once I got in again, I learned that the reason why I didn't get in the year before was because they were doing a curriculum transformation at the institution where I got my doctorate from. So what they were actually doing was cutting down the program to make it shorter, to make it more, to make it, more possible for students to actually complete the program. So the program was relatively long. It was about maybe six or seven years long, something like that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:10]: And they just tried to figure out what classes do we need, what classes can we maybe, you know, can we condense anything? Is this really necessary? Because we wanna make sure that students stay with us, stay in the program. Remember, we're talking about retention. We wanna make sure sure that students not only start, but they finish. Maybe the the program is too long. Maybe that's why students aren't finishing. So I'm telling myself that, hey, you didn't get in because you're not smart enough to be a doctor. When the reality was that behind the curtain, there was a curriculum transformation going on for the benefit of me, and I did finish. And I'm glad they cut it down.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:51]: I think they only cut it down by a couple of years, but trust me, I'm glad they did because if I would have been in there any longer, I think I don't know. But the whole point is I'm glad that they that they cut it down. Inclusive pedagogy is something that we just talked about a little bit earlier, so I won't spend too much time on that. But if you do find yourself in a position to teach, and that doesn't always mean like, a teaching assistant or like a professor, there's a lot of roles that you can be a teacher. Right? And whatever that pedagogy might be, it may not be a syllabus that you have, but it may be some type of outline for a program, you know, that you're designing. No matter what it is, that you are using as a tool to guide how you teach and how students learn, whether it be a coach, whether it be a mentor, whether it be a professor, no matter what the role is, there's always an element of teaching, especially when you're in higher education. You just want to make sure whatever that tool or those tools are, they're inclusive. And then as far as the inclusive learning environment, right, you want to make sure that what you teach and how you teach factor into where you teach.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:56]: So that's what I was talking about as far as the excitement of creating, a very inclusive space, learning space for students, because creating an inclusive learning space involves two important things, care and respect. Right? So this is how healthy and positive relationships the students are built and the strength and the impact of those relationships. What it does is it empowers students, to continue to learn and see this thing through, you know, be academically successful. How do we show care and respect? The quick example is remembering names, for example, and not just remembering them, but pronouncing names correctly and not getting offended when a student corrects you about their name. Right? I take that very important. You know? If I do not know how to pronounce a student's name, I will ask them, would you mind pronouncing your name so that I know that I am pronouncing it correctly? And please bear with me. If I happen to mispronounce it, correct me every time. Because a name is a part of your identity.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:57]: And a lot of times what students will do is they will change themselves to accommodate the person who they feel has more power over them because there is a power differential when you're talking about a professor and a student. But as faculty, it's very important for for faculty to be aware that something as important as a name and not getting offended when somebody corrects you about a name is something that can really strengthen a relationship with a student. And that can change the whole way they look at your class and the way that you teach that class. Alright. So how can you promote? Because we talked about practicing IE, but how can you promote it, on this campus and in your community? Reflecting, educating, supporting, and getting involved. Right? So reflect on your own beliefs. Remember what we talked about about that interpersonal practice? That involves reflection and introspection. Reflect on your own beliefs and opinions to discover any biases that you can challenge.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:59]: It's not enough just to know that, oh, I have a bias. How are you gonna challenge that? And a lot of times what you can do is get involved in professional development opportunities, you know, like webinars like this, you know, for example. You know, sitting in conversations where it might be a subject matter that you're not familiar with, and you can expose yourself to new information to challenge the biases or misinformation or assumptions that you may have found within yourself through reflection. Educate yourself. And this is I kinda jumped ahead a little bit, but this is kinda how you address those biases through education, whether it be through a webinar, whether it be through a class, whether it be being a part of an organization, surrounding a topic or a concern that you know very little about, through books, through media, and making sure you understand inequality and inequity. Because, again, those aren't things that are barriers to inclusive excellence. Support organizations that promote diversity and inclusion. It's so important to have support.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:05]: It's very, very important to have support because when you show support, it reaffirms that the cause that you're supporting is needed and it's important. And then get involved with community programs. When we talk about the community aspect, getting involved with community programs that help others in need. Because again, remember, reflection, that's about intra. That's intrapersonal practice. But when we're talking about supporting organizations and getting involved in your community, that's when we're talking about interpersonal practices. This is so much bigger than, like I said, bigger than the classroom, bigger than your interactions with professors. This is about what you as a grad student can do on your campus, in your community to show inclusive excellence because we are all ambassadors of inclusive excellence.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:51]: It's not just professors. It's not just higher ed administration, the dean, directors. It's all of us. We all have a responsibility to show and display inclusive excellence on campus, including graduate students. And that brings me to the end of my presentation. So if you have any questions, I'd be happy to read them and answer them to the best of my ability, you know, in the chat. But this was as you can probably tell, I was very excited to talk about inclusive excellence. And I just wanna thank you once again for, just listening to me for a little bit.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:26]: And hopefully, you can take something away that makes you feel informed and also inspired to display inclusive excellence in the environments that you show up in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:36]: Well, doctor Tux, thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing everything that you did share, and being such an advocate for our students in this way, and to challenge our students to be able to share their voice and be able to help our institution grow because of that sharing. And I wish you the best. And thank you to all of you for being here too. And we will be having more of these, one every month, so please watch your email. We'll be sharing out the topics every month. We have some great speakers coming from the CAPS office throughout the entire term. So look forward to that, and have a wonderful rest of your day.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:14]: Yes. Have a wonderful day, everyone. Thanks for coming.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate education is a transformative experience, one that goes far beyond mere academics. In the latest episode of Victors on Grad School, Dr. Zachariah Mathew, Senior International Officer and Director of the Center for Global Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, sat down with Dr. Christopher Lewis to unravel his unique educational and professional journey. From his roots in India to accomplishing multiple advanced degrees in the United States, Dr. Mathew's story exemplified the essence of perseverance, mentorship, and making meaningful connections. This blog distills his advice and experiences into actionable insights that prospective graduate students can take to heart.

Discovering Graduate Education as a Journey

Dr. Mathew's journey exemplifies how graduate education is not a one-size-fits-all experience. Reflecting on his initial career as a physical education teacher in India, he admitted going in "thinking I knew it all." However, through mentors like his school principal, he discovered the value of continuous learning and how education is a voyage enriched by companions. Understanding that he "did not know enough to teach" and that more formal education would help him better serve his students, Dr. Mathew pursued graduate studies—eventually crossing continents to the United States.

The Importance of Finding the Right Fit

Choosing the right graduate program isn't just about prestige. Dr. Mathew discussed how he meticulously researched and prioritized faculty expertise, affordability, and alignment with his passions during his transition from India to South Dakota State University. This phase taught him that graduate school decisions depend on the information available at the time—a reminder that the "right" choice always involves reflection on personal goals and circumstances.

Leveraging Mentorship for Growth

A resounding theme of Dr. Mathew's interview was the transformative power of mentorship. From advisers to administrators, mentors played a pivotal role in helping him synthesize his skills and switch career paths. For aspiring graduate students, seeking guidance from mentors—faculty members or even campus staff—can be immensely impactful.

Final Thoughts: Graduate School as a Laboratory of Growth

Dr. Mathew emphasized that "graduate education is what you make of it." Perspective-building, experiential learning, and finding ways to apply classroom knowledge to the real world define success. Graduate school should be seen not only as a means to a degree but as a platform to become uniquely capable of solving problems and thriving in a globalized world.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You've made a decision that you're starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are, there is a journey that you go through when you go to graduate school, and there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share some of those experiences with you to help you on that journey that you're on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Zacharia Matthew is with us today. And today we're going to be talking about his own journey from India to The United States. Doctor. Matthew is the senior international officer and director of the Center for Global Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, and I'm really excited to have him here with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: Doctor. Matthew, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:01:21]: Doctor. Liz, it's truly an honor. I really love the way you started. It indeed is a journey. I know a journey where you're not alone and you find your companion who you can part the journey along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in India and you studied to be a educator and a teacher and ended up getting that degree. But at some point, at some point, either during that time and your undergraduate work and that time in the early years, when you were a physical education teacher, you made a decision. You made a big decision. You made a decision to go on with your education, to go to graduate school. And not only did you decide to go to graduate school, but you decided to come to The United States to go to graduate school. So I want to go back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: Bring me back to that point where you made that decision and what made you decide that you wanted to go further and go on and get that graduate degree?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:19]: I was 19. I was not even 20 when I had my first job as a physical education teacher at an international school. So I went in with this mindset at the age of 20 thinking I knew it all and how far away or far out I was in my belief that so I started off as a physical education teacher at an international school, called Malayadity International School. It's in Bangalore, India. And again, as you mentioned in the beginning, education is a journey. Every day you learn, and you need to find companions. You need to find the right people who can be part of that journey. First of all, my family was always supportive.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:58]: But at my institution, the principal of that school, Mrs. Anne Wario, she also started off as a physical education teacher in England. So she had a very different take for this profession of physical education. In India at that time, I'm talking about the early nineties, physical education was nothing but training. But Mrs. Warrior really brought me in to think about this as an integral part of education. Over the next six, seven years, I had a lot of opportunity to learn more through different short term courses, programs from Oxford Brookes. And I realized that there was a lot that I did not know.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:03:38]: And also I realized that I was able to be along with teachers who had got their degrees from institution, like from Ivy Leagues and be part of a conversation. So first of all, that what that led me to believe is that I was also capable of having conversations, informed conversations with professionals who had terminal degrees from institutions abroad. So that made me also think so one was I realized that I did not know enough to be able to teach. And second, I realized interacting with, as we said, you know, meeting the people all throughout the journey, I realized that I had so much to learn. And at that time, physical education was not a field of study in India. It was not a major field at all. So when I decided to pursue my higher education, I looked within the country. I did my PG diploma from India as well.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:04:29]: I realized that that was not enough for me to, one, have a career. Number two, provide proper education for the students whom I serve. That's when I really started looking to The US, UK, and Australia. And finally, I chose to do my master's in, exercise physiology in The United States. And then later, I realized that that was not where my heart and pulse was. I was more interested in the management, and that is where my pulse was. And later completed my master's in, sports management from Indiana State University. So this journey from being a teacher to finally coming to The United States took about seven years.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:05]: That is the first leg of my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: Talk to me about the search because every person goes through that process. And you said you could have gone to Ivy League. You could have looked at a lot of different universities to try to figure out where you wanted to go to get that degree in physiology and in sports management for your master's degree that you were going to be getting here in The United States. You ended up deciding to attend Indiana State University, but every student goes through that search process. You talked about you were looking at The UK and Australia and The US, and you're trying to figure out the right fit for you. But talk to me about what you had to do to be able to identify the right program, but also the right university for you to find that right fit.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:50]: That too was a journey that almost took me two years to decide where I really want to go. So one thing that you need to recognize is that you do not know what you do not know. You make decisions based on the information that you have at that point of time. Later, you may decide later, when you have more information, you may decide that that is not. So you may you need to make decisions that is right for you at that time. So when I decided to pursue my master's in excess physiology at South Dakota State University, I was looking for an quality and affordable graduate education that aligned with my interest area as well. So at that point, especially due from 1996 to February, I was very much into climbing and hiking up on the Himalayas and high altitude. I was very much interested in high altitude training.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:06:36]: So within while I was searching for the right graduate program, I found adviser or a faculty at South Dakota State University whose research was on high altitude training. So that was a key aspect at that time for me to determine which university to go to. So while I had a lot of push factors from India, which is like they do not India did not have this kind of a training at that point. The pull factors I mean, I could have gone to as you said, I could have gone to many, many places, but there were key aspects. One was affordability. Number two, quality of program. Number three, was there a person who could guide me who could guide me in my area of interest. So I started that program but it was once I was in the program and I learned more about what it really is because, again, I came from a place where excess physiology and physical education was it was not a science.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:07:33]: It was yet evolving. I when I realized that I had no passion dealing with blood and punched muscles, I realized my seven years of experience or eight years of experience as a physical education teacher, a manager, and an administrator was my real area. So then I really looked for somebody or an institution again that was affordable at quality education, but then this time, you can't make too many mistakes. So this time, what I did was I did a deeper research and found a faculty who was also an author, reached out to him, had a almost an hour and a half hours of conversation, and then decided that my seven years of experience is something that I wanted to capitalize on and decided to do my master's in sports management at Indiana State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: Now along the way, you also made a decision that after you got that master's degree and you started working for Indiana State University, You decided to continue that education, and you continued that as a in a doctorate of philosophy program, a PhD program in higher education administration, and you stayed at Indiana State University. So talk to me about that because you you went on that journey of being a teacher in the classroom with with young kids, getting that exercise physiology degree, a recreation sports management degree. You're educating yourself seemingly on one path, and then you pivot, and you start working in higher education, and you decide to stay in higher education and get that additional degree. What made you decide to not only pivot in career, but also pivot in regard to what you were doing in your education to get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:09:24]: Yeah. So when I started my program at Indiana State University, I also realized that I had once pivoted from a program to another. So when you make decisions and when you kind of change those, it kind of can rattle you. So here too, I was a little rattled because I had lost some time. So I had to make sure that this decision was I had to make the best out of this decision. So what I did was I made, as you mentioned in the beginning, this is a journey. I made a lot of friends who were professionals in the field of higher education. These were the faculty and the staff of Indiana State University, and I made these connections through my work as a graduate assistant.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:10:05]: I was a graduate assistant for employee assistance program, the the department that was very much focused on providing wellness for, the faculty and staff. I made a lot of friends among professionals, and every conversation was a learning opportunity for me. And that's when I also realized that probably I could do better and I would be a lot more satisfied as a professional in the field of higher education working with young adults. So I started thinking of switching from K through 12 to higher education. And a lot of work that I did at during my graduate assistantship period at Indiana State University was pretty much what a full time employee would do. So that confidence and that experience and the contacts and connections that I made at throughout my journey at Indiana State really helped me switch over to the higher ed field. So upon graduation, I moved to New York. I was working for State University of New York in the field of sports, management.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:11:04]: And then again, you need to realize that you make decisions based on what the information you have. So my two years of experience pursuing my sports management degree, my experience as an international student and perspective building and the role culture play really introduced me to this field of international student affairs. It took me a little bit of a time to make sure that this was something that I really wanted to pursue. So after working for about seven years in the field of sports management, I decided to pursue my PhD in student affairs, especially focusing on international student affairs or international student affairs in higher education. Again, this transition, some I mean, I've many times I've been asked, why did you change your career? And I never see this one as changing my career because I've always been into student development. Again, I switched my means. One was sports. Now I'm really just pivoting that and getting into international student experience and making sure that I can provide an opportunity for those cultural understanding and student development.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:08]: Now with every move into a new educational environment, there are transitions that you go through. You went through some big transitions going from a system in India and getting degrees in India to South Dakota to Indiana to different types of degrees, different types of types of expectations, different faculty, etcetera. As students go through those transitions, they have to learn what it takes to find success. Talk to me about what you had to do in those transitions to be able to not only transition into the programs, but also transition through the programs, finding success along that journey.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:12:49]: So I think when we make decisions, we need to be sure why we are making those decisions. There is no right or wrong reasons. You make decisions based on the information that you have. Sometimes it might be career opportunities. Sometimes it might be that you just realize a new passion for a field of study. I think that most important aspect is making those connections of why you make a certain decision and see how much of your current skills can be transport or transportable is transportable. So you really take advantage of every knowledge that you have and then try and fit that into the new field of study. So having been in the sports field to or athletics, moving into international student affairs, again, for me, the connection was student development.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:13:33]: Now definitely, it is challenging, and that's where you find the companion companions for your journey. You need to find resources. And when you are challenged, you need to be able to you should and you should reach out to people who are in the field of this profession who can serve as mentors. In my I think all through this, if I, if if you ask what is that one aspect that helped me through all this journey, I had mentors. Not one. Multiple mentors in the field of higher education from day one. At Indiana State University, it was Doctor. Tom Sawyer, who was my advisor.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:14:12]: He was able he helped me make connections. When I say connections within the field of study, how I can really capitalize what I already know to the field that I'm getting into. And then as I said, as through my work as a graduate assistant, I made a lot of friends and family who literally took me under their wings recognizing that I had some potential but needed mentorship. So this included the Dean of Library, at that time, Betsy Hine, her family. Her husband was the Dean of was a Dean at Eastern Illinois. So they all kind of mentored me and held my hand as I was traveling through this field of higher education. And then again, I remember my, immigration advisor at Indiana State. He was the first one to really make those connections between what I was doing there to international student affairs and the role that office really plays.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:08]: And I was able to see that relationship because I had some experience, but it was not the same. I was able to relate it through this mentorship. And that was I mean, again, you know, today I work at an international office. Very often, students look our look at our office as that transactional space. I think it is very important as a graduate student that any office on this campus that you are should be viewed as a place where you can learn from. So that mentorship that I got at my previous institution really helped me through and make those connections. So I never felt that I changed my career. It was making connections and making progression.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:49]: And that is what it took me about five, six years to further make bond, build the strength of those connections and make a decision that I wanted to pursue my PhD in a certain field and then also pursue a lasting career in that field of study. So if you in one sentence, I would say is mentorship. Find mentors who are faculty, who are administrators, who we can talk to, whom we can trust, and that is going to be very, very, very powerful throughout your grad school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: Now you have found success. You got your degrees. You moved into your own professional career in international education. And as you look back at the education that you went through, many people would say, I see the connection in your doctorate to what you're doing today. But as you think back to all of the pieces, the building blocks, it could be the career steps, it could be the education. As you look back at your education and those building blocks, how did what you learn in all of those different degrees prepare you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:16:59]: That's a pretty profound question. A few things. One, believe in yourself and believe in what you do. So for me, from day one, yes, I was a physical education teacher, then I became an administrator, and now in international affairs. But my question even today, what I ask what I ask is, what is the connection? For me from day one, what I had been was an educator. The only difference was whom I worked with, either I worked in k through 12 or I was at college in the physical education or in the sports management or here. So all through what I've been doing is educate. And one of the reasons why I might have moved from again, I say this might because I'm basing my decisions on what I know now from a teacher to an administrator is I started asking this question, what's the difference between teaching and learning? That was a key question that I asked.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:17:51]: And I've come to believe that learning takes a lot more than what happens in the classroom. It takes a lot of support system. Not everybody learn in the same way. We have students coming from different backgrounds. They need different support systems. So what I really did was pivot from being in the classroom teaching and find an avenue or find a place where I could foster learning, provide the support system, and provide the nourishment that would foster learning. So I thought being in an administrative role, I would be in a position where I could complement and support the students and the faculty in the core learning process. So that's what I really do today is, yes, I teach.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:18:33]: As an administrator, I teach. But at the bigger picture, what I am really doing is making sure that the students have the right environment to learn. This would include even starting from techniques to learn to providing the social support system and being the mentor to these students recognizing that it is a mentorship that has got to me this to this position. So that is a key difference. I mean, the connection for me is whom I was working with and what am I doing right now. All through, if you're really looking in, what I'm doing is imparting education. So that's the connection that I have made. And I think that making that connection really helps you to progress in your educational pursuit and in your career pursuit.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:19:20]: Because though I have changed my field, if you really look at it over the last forty years, I had been doing the same thing. And I have thirty five years of experience being in that field of education doing the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:31]: Now you may have already answered this through some of your comments in regards to mentorship and other things that students should do. But as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it's in one of the areas that you studied in or something completely different, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:19:55]: Graduate education is not undergraduate education. Graduate education is what you make out of it. Now something that you have to really recognize is every single year, there are thousands of students graduating with the same degree that you would have. The question there is, how do you really stand out in the crowd is a key question that you need to ask. So I really see there's a big difference between having an academic degree and having an education. And this graduate degree is when you are pursuing the graduate degree, you need to make sure that everything that you do is experiential. The assignments you do in the classroom should relate to what you really want to do in your career. So you can do the research while you are being a student.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:20:45]: And, again, recognize that failing is not a failure. Failing is a great opportunity for you to learn, and the graduate school is one place where you may not have to be afraid of failing because you can then write a paper from that experience, and that can provide you a learning opportunity. So some of the things that I really want the young graduates to know or students who are pursuing their graduate degree is that graduate program is a lab. A lab where you can have experiential learning opportunities, learn from not only what happens in the classroom, but learn in the classroom outside, get involved on in campus in multiple levels. I'm not talking just getting involved as a participant. Be a leader. Take all that as an opportunity to learn and get an education that is beyond an academic degree. And also make sure that you spend some time in perspective building.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:21:40]: We serve people from different cultures. So this is also a great opportunity for you to integrate those perspectives of different cultures into your learning. And this is what makes you marketable and make you employable is your ability to apply what you know in different settings. So it is very important that you really look at everything that you know and see how does this apply to various cultures or various systems and make yourself employable. Again, we at institutions of higher education focus on career readiness. It is your responsibility to look into your employability. The difference is career readiness will get you to the first job and then what? It is very important that you use every single day at your grad school to learn so that you can build your employability where you can employability is your ability to progress at your current job or move on. Every day should be a learning opportunity.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:22:36]: See what you can learn from that experience. Even at a meeting, what is it that you can learn? And that is what makes grad education different and powerful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:45]: Well, doctor Matthew, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing all of this great advice that I know that others can take and be able to internalize and be able to use for their own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:22:59]: Thank you, doctor Lewis. Thank you very much for having me, and it's truly an honor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:02]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

The path to success is rarely straightforward, and Dr. Julie Jacob's journey from military service to directing the Occupational Therapy Doctorate Program at the University of Michigan Flint illustrates that vividly. During her appearance on the podcast, Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Jacob shared her unique educational and professional trajectory, proving that twists, turns, and detours can lead to meaningful and rewarding outcomes.

Starting her career in the military with a focus on communications, Dr. Jacob completed her associate degree in information systems management while serving. Yet, her passion lay elsewhere. After leaving the military and initially pursuing a healthcare-related degree in med lab sciences, her path shifted again. A challenging math course in undergrad led her to explore other healthcare options, eventually discovering occupational therapy (OT). Through research and coursework, Dr. Jacob recognized OT as her calling, igniting a commitment to lifelong learning and service.

The Transitions: Adaptability and Resilience

Each stage of Dr. Jacob's academic journey—earning an associate's degree, undergraduate degree, master's degree, and doctorate—required significant adjustments. From rote memorization in earlier programs to analytical and self-directed learning in graduate school, she had to evolve her study habits and approach. More importantly, she developed robust skills in time management and organization, crucial for balancing her studies with work and family responsibilities.

Dr. Jacob emphasized that succeeding in graduate studies takes significant sacrifice, as students often face financial, time, and personal challenges. "Organization and time management were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful," she shared. This lesson resonates universally for anyone embarking on a graduate school journey.

The Passion for Occupational Therapy

Occupational therapy is a field dedicated to enhancing individuals' lives—helping people overcome physical, cognitive, and emotional challenges to engage in meaningful daily activities. Its blend of holistic care and creativity captured Dr. Jacob's heart, paralleling her own multifaceted journey. "It's strength-based and the perfect blend of art and science," Dr. Jacob explained, illustrating why OT was the right fit for her and why it remains a fulfilling profession.

Advice for Future Graduate Students

With years of academic and professional experience, Dr. Jacob encouraged students to anticipate the sacrifices and challenges associated with graduate school. It may be demanding, but her story highlights that the rewards—personal growth, professional advancement, and meaningful impact—make it worthwhile.

By embracing resilience, adaptability, and a passion for making a difference, anyone can navigate the twists and turns of their educational journeys as Dr. Jacob did. Let her experience serve as inspiration for your own path toward success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week as we, every week, talk about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person walks a different path when it comes to looking at graduate school, considering graduate school, walking through graduate school to find that light at the end of the tunnel, leading you to the career and the dreams that you may have for your future. And the thing that is so important is that there are things that you can do right now as you are listening today to be able to prepare yourself for that journey and to prepare yourself to find success in that journey. And that's why every week we come back and we have an opportunity to be able to sit down and talk through this, but also you get an opportunity to learn from others that have done this before you. And that's why I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you to understand the journey that they went on to then allow you to take some things out of that, to look and consider what you can take out of it to build some tools for your own toolbox that help you along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: This week, we got another great guest. Doctor Julie Jacob is with us today, and doctor Jacob is the director of the occupational therapy doctorate program at the University of Michigan Flint. And we were just talking prior to talking today about the journey that she went on, and it it's a circuitous path. And sometimes for for students like you, you may have a circuitous or you may have a circuitous path that will twist and turn along the way to get you to that endpoint. And we're gonna talk to Julie about that today. So I'm really excited to have her here and for you to learn from her experiences. Julie, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:08]: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: Yeah. I am really excited to be able to have you here today to talk about the journey that you went on. And I talked about the fact that your journey was not a linear path, but more circuitous and the fact that you you had a number of twists and trends along the way. So I always start these opportunities to get a little bit more sense. And I know you got into your degrees first through the military, but then the journey began. So I want to go back because I know that you did your first educational experiences in the military as a part of the military. And thank you for your service.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:43]: Oh, you're welcome.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:44]: And then after you got out, you did some work. Somewhere along this pathway, you decided to get an undergraduate degree, and you went to Saginaw Valley State University. And while you were at Saginaw Valley State University, you made a decision. You made a decision whether on your own accord or not to continue your education, and you ended up finding occupational therapy. Talk to me about that journey for yourself, and what led you to occupational therapy ultimately?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:15]: Well, when I was in the military, I was in communications. And so my associate's degree, I took classes while I was in, and my associate's degree is in information systems management. So I took classes when I was deployed, when I was at my main duty station, as I could part time obviously, and got that accomplished. But I knew that I wanted to go into health care. I was kinda like, what do I wanna be when I grow up? And I knew I wanted a health care career. At the time, I chose to get out of the military because there was not a health care career that I could transition to and remain active duty at that time. So when I went to pursue my undergraduate degree, initially, I was a med lab sciences major, and I was taking all of the required courses for that major. And I happened to take, a more advanced math course and found it very challenging.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:59]: And I had never really been challenged in my undergrad. I I got very good grades, but sometimes that happens. And I did everything that I could, but I thought to myself, maybe this is not the right major for me. And so I needed to stay at Saginaw Valley just for, you know, financial reasons, stay stay in the general region where I was at. And I started looking into other programs that they offered, and I stumbled upon occupational therapy. And I had not really heard of that before. And as I did more investigating, I'm like, wow. This sounds like this career is right up my alley.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:04:24]: It's health care related. The curriculum looks really interesting, is something that I would be interested in doing. So I ended up changing my major to that. And at that time, it was for the profession, entry level was a bachelor's program. But as luck would have it, I was taking classes part time. And when I decided to transition full time, the profession of occupational therapy had undergone a shift to make it, master's level prepared entry level. So if I wanted to continue, I would need to get a master's degree. And so I was already invested at that point and decided to just continue my studies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]: Now you had a lot of transitions going from getting an associate's degree in the military, to getting an undergraduate degree, to getting a master's degree and then getting a doctorate degree. And in all of those transitions, you have to learn something new. Every educational transition brings you to having to learn about those different educational, those educational environments and being able to understand the expectations, etcetera. But you found success in those journeys. You were able to get your associates, get your bachelor's, get that master's, get that doctorate degree. Talk to me about those transitions, the transition into undergrad, transition from undergrad to master's, transition from master's to doctorate, and what you learned along the way in those transitions as you transitioned in. And as you transitioned in, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success as you transitioned through those programs to your ultimate goal?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:01]: Well, I think the way that you're assessed is different. I mean, I remember early on in my educational journey, you know, you're taking a lot of exams, and it's a lot of rote memorization of the content. So the way I was studying was different. As I transitioned into, you know, going from my bachelor's into my master's program, the work there was a shift in the in the expectation and the work. So it was more clinical reason how I was thinking about things. You know, clinical reasoning, critical thinking skills were more required rather than just, you know, studying for an exam and forgetting about it. I felt like I was building upon my knowledge. Every single class required me to kind of remember what I had learned before and apply that to the new content.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:40]: Organization was very, very important. Time management was really important. You know, you're you'd have big papers to write rather than just just studying for a simple exam. So allowing myself more time. I was also working. I I worked during my master's program and my doctorate program. I was working. So that takes a lot of balance, in order to manage manage my time and and devote what I needed to to my studies plus everything that else just to balance my home life.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:07:12]: So I think there's definitely a shift in the expectation. And then transitioning to my doctorate program, it was all self directed learning. You have everything kind of laid out for you. The expectations are laid out for you. There's a lot more discussion, but everything was pretty much self directed at that point. And a lot of that in the master's program too, of course. So, yeah, I think for me, like, organization and time management was were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Now I know that from doing your undergrad and your grad at Saginaw Valley State University, you ended up at some point deciding that you wanted to get a doctorate degree and you went to Nova Southeastern to be able to do that program. Talk to me about the decision to go further than the masters, because you could have decided to stay with the masters, be a practitioner, work as an OT, and having a a fruitful career, staying and working in that environment, but you decided to continue on, get the doctorate, and go back and teach. So talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go further and get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:08:25]: So I was a clinician for many years, and then I actually transitioned into academia. And I went to work in the occupational therapy department at Santa Clara Valley State University, which was a great transition for me. So I was in charge of all the field work classes. I taught adjunct for some of the, undergraduate prereqs in the occupational therapy program. But there's been a lot of transition still in the occupational therapy field with a lot of programs moving towards an entry level doctorate degree. So we still have dual points of entry in our profession. So you can enter the profession at a master's level or you can choose to have an entry level doctorate, which is like what we have at University of Michigan Flint. But if you have a program that has a doctorate, entry level doctorate, all of your faculty must be doctorally prepared.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:08]: And teaching at Saginaw Valley, I was not. So if they that program was going to transition and there was a lot of talk that they were going to transition and a lot of talk of the profession that they were gonna mandate a transition at that time to keep my job. I had to move towards a doctor degree. So I could have gone back to clinical practice, like you said. I mean, that's easy. I love treating patients and I love clinical practice, but I really grew to love teaching in academia. And I knew that I wanted to stay in academia. So So there's no question for me.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:35]: I'm like, okay, then this is what I need to do in order to maintain my ability to, to teach. I need to get my doctorate degree. And so then I explored that option and decided to pursue that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: So one of the things that I'm kind of interested in is that, you know, you went from being in the military to being a full time student, to being a full time student and working, and, you know, you're balancing all of these different things like many students do. And as you look back at the experience that you had in your graduate degree in both your graduate degrees and you think about what you do today, how did all of this other experience lead you to where you are today? And how do you draw from that graduate school experience in the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:10:20]: I mean, like you said, my path is a little unconventional, but I almost feel like a lot of students now, you know, there there's a lot of people out there that are completely switching career fields when their, their paths are not linear. I think that lends itself to having a lot of life experience, especially in a healthcare profession that helps you connect better with your patients. They say, you know, you can't connect the dots looking forward, but you can connect the dots looking backward. And I certainly can connect the dots to everything that I've done. I mean, even my experience in the air force in communications and having my associate's degree in information systems management, I got my doctorate degree in health science with a concentration in telehealth. And a lot of the curriculum that I studied had to do with technology and some of the things that I was doing way back in my associate's degree and in my my military service. So the dots definitely connect. So def that all served me to help me get to where I am today.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:11:13]: You know, my clinical practice being occupational therapy, I couldn't teach if I didn't have any clinical practice. Right? So, I think all of it kind of led me. And the fact that I went ahead and I got my doctorate degree, and I'm now teaching in a entry level doctorate program. And I was able to obtain a position at University of Michigan Flint, which I otherwise would not have. Had I not decided to go ahead with that, I would not have been able to have the position that I'm in today and to continue to teach and help shape future practitioners in OT.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Now, like I said, you are the program director of the occupational therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you found this passion, you found this career area for yourself, and not everybody knows about what occupational therapy is all about. And a lot of times it is a found career unless they unless someone has had an experience with an occupational therapy or has had a family member with an occupational therapy, occupational therapist in the past. So talk to me about occupational therapy and why are you so passionate about it and why is it such a great career area for you and for others?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:12:18]: Occupational therapy, healthcare profession that we're focused on helping individuals of all ages. So, you know, essentially from birth to death to palliative care, and we focus on helping people participate in meaningful activities or what we call occupations. So So anything that occupies your time is essentially what an occupation is that are essential to their daily lives. So that could be anything from your self care that you're doing, activities of daily living, work, education, which is the primary occupation of students at our university, their leisure activities, social interaction. So, but the ultimate goal of occupational therapy is to help people live as independently and as fully as they possibly can. Despite any challenges, whether that be physical or cognitive, emotional, or any social challenges that they may face. And OTs really address the whole person. It's a very holistic approach to health care.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:07]: So we address physical, emotional, psychological factors rather than just focusing on, like, there an illness or an injury or a disability. So we're it's strength based. And I think it it's kind of the perfect blend of art and science because occupational therapists can be very, very creative in their approach. It's very person centered. We utilize the things of the occupations that people do as forms of intervention, which is it's a really unique way of addressing the needs of our patients.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now, as you think of students, whether they are looking at going to become an occupational therapist or whatever graduate degree that they have an interest in, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:50]: It takes sacrifice. It really does take sacrifice. I think sometimes people think it's going to be easy. I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna be easy and I'm gonna get through it and but it really does take a lot of sacrifice in your time. Sometimes it's financial sacrifice. I mean, I have student loans. Nobody paid for me to go to school. I had my GI bill, which paid for a very small portion of my undergraduate degree.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:14:11]: And after that, it was all loans. So there was a definitely a financial sacrifice for me. There's a time sacrifice as far as having to work and balance all of those things. And even with my doctorate degree, I have children. So there's the sacrifice there, and they understood and were very supportive. But I think you need to be able to recognize that in advance and just have that expectation that sometimes not everything is gonna go perfectly, but it's worth it to put in the work. You just have to put in the work to get to your goal. And all of it is worth it in the end to be able to get there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best. Thank you. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

The Value of Graduate Education: A Stepping Stone for Career Development

In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis interviewed Endia Crabtree, an accomplished professional with a background in anthropology, public health education, and medical writing. Throughout the discussion, Crabtree emphasized how graduate education enriched her skills and positioned her for career opportunities. Her journey exemplifies how graduate programs provide more than just theoretical knowledge—they shape individuals into problem-solvers and leaders prepared to tackle real-world challenges. For Crabtree, graduate school was not only an academic pursuit but also an avenue to discover and act on her passions, from studying forensic anthropology to addressing public health disparities.

Finding Passion and Purpose

Crabtree's educational path began with a fascination for forensic anthropology, inspired by her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan Flint. Eventually, her curiosity shifted toward understanding health outcomes across cultures, sparking a passion for public health. Graduate school became the launching pad for her decision to pursue research and interventions focusing on populations affected by diseases such as cancer and HIV, particularly within underserved communities. For Crabtree, discovering a population-driven focus helped her align her professional goals with deeply personal motivations, such as her family's experience with cancer.

Leveraging Networking and Professional Organizations

A recurring theme in Crabtree's journey was the importance of proactively building relationships and engaging with professional organizations. From her undergraduate days to her postdoctoral fellowships, her active involvement in groups like the American Public Health Association and MedTech Women enabled her to network, share knowledge, and collaborate across diverse fields. These connections opened doors to opportunities and exposed her to cross-functional teamwork. Aspiring graduate students can replicate her success by joining such communities, contributing to their efforts, and gaining valuable leadership experience.

The Grad School Toolbox: Collaboration, Accountability, and Adaptability

One of Crabtree's key takeaways from graduate education was learning to collaborate effectively—a skill she still utilizes daily in her current role as principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. Group projects, though sometimes challenging, taught her the importance of accountability, shared goals, and strategic planning. She noted that these experiences prepared her for cross-functional teamwork in global settings.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Crabtree's journey underscores the importance of entering graduate school with intention and an openness to pivot. Her advice to students? View classmates as allies, not competitors, and prioritize building supportive relationships. Whether through group projects or networking events, working collaboratively can lead to lasting friendships, resource sharing, and professional growth.

Endia Crabtree's inspiring journey serves as a testament to the transformative potential of graduate education, emphasizing the value of perseverance, collaboration, and a passion for lifelong learning.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to connect and to be able to walk hand in hand together on this journey that you're on to get that graduate degree. Now you could be at the very beginning working to try to figure out, do I really wanna do this? Do I wanna get that graduate degree? Or maybe you're in a program and you're currently in there trying to figure out, okay, what do I need to do next? Or maybe that light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer and you're getting ready to graduate. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do to find success in this journey that you're on, and that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to you about different resources, different skills, different things that you can do to be able to find success in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: And we do that through introducing you to other people, people that have gone before you, have gone and gotten degrees or are currently in degrees and have had an opportunity to be able to find success for themselves. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Endia Kramtree is well, doctor Endia Kramtree is with us today, and Endia is the principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her and to have her share some of her journey with us in Endia. Thanks so much for being here today.

Endia Crabtree [00:01:48]: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about this. I love you, Evelyn Flynn. It's my first stomping ground.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to learn more about this journey that you've been on because you've had a bit of a journey where you've gotten numerous degrees and different steps to where you are today. I wanna start off our conversation by turning the clock back in time. I wanna go back to that undergraduate work that you were doing. I know you got a bachelor of arts in anthropology, but you also had a concentration in medical anthropology. And then at some point in that undergraduate degree, you made a decision to move on and get a master's degree. What made you choose to continue your education and get that graduate degree?

Endia Crabtree [00:02:32]: 1st, I was interested in forensic anthropology, and I initially majored in biology because biology is the foundation of forensic anthropology. You're trying to understand the underlying causes of death or mortality for people whose remains it could have been discovered several months or years ago to centuries ago. And it was just really fascinating to me to learn about a person's life, what they've been through, any health ailments that they may have had. And as you need biology to know how to do that, you need biology, you need chemistry, you need all of these, what they like to call the big life sciences to understand that. And when I first started off as a freshman, actually before I switched over to major in anthropology, I took a biology class. It was organismal biology. 1st class as a freshman, 2005. And I walk in there, and there's over 200 students, which at the University of Michigan Flint campus, I did not expect.

Endia Crabtree [00:03:38]: And it was a difficult class, but it was a good class. I did learn a lot. But after taking that class and went into my 2nd semester, I took cultural anthropology, and I also took a an archaeology class, and that is actually what introduced me to anthropology itself. So even though I've heard of forensic anthropology, I did not know about the anthropology part about the about anthropology. I just thought of it as, you know, another science. And at that time, in 2005, CSI and all of those programs were huge for that time. That was a big deal. So myself among and other people were really interested in taking that path, but I specifically it was myself and only myself who was doing forensics.

Endia Crabtree [00:04:25]: So, anyway, to back up a little bit, I switched out of biology and decided to major in anthropology because, a, I connected with the professors immediately. I liked my classmates more. The classes were smaller. And and it which is part of why I went to University of Michigan Flint. I've always loved Michigan. I live and breathe, bleed blue all day, but I needed to do it in a smaller space. It's on a smaller campus. But with that said, at being at University of Michigan Flint versus at Narber, you do have smaller labs.

Endia Crabtree [00:04:57]: You will have less people to interact with for something as niche as forensic anthropology. So, anyway, to fast forward, I'd say going on to my senior year, I've taken by my senior year, of course, I've taken pretty much every class in my major. I even did archaeology field school at one point, which was really cool, and that actually introduced me to paleontology. And I also love that, but there was something about studying and working with people who are deceased that over time became it was sad and it was dark in the lab. It was a little boring. You know, I just didn't enjoy it as much even though I did love my professor who was doctor Beverly Smith. I learned over time that it just wasn't for me. I was like, well, maybe I I love anthropology, but maybe I should think about how can I contribute to this world by helping people who are alive? And so medical anthropology, my senior year, and it was there that I actually got exposed to public health and exposed to health, health outcomes, wellness, the understanding of what health is, how is it how it's defined, what wellness means from a cross cultural perspective, from perspective outside of the United States, so outside of a permiritricism, outside of US and western thoughts, that really blew my mind.

Endia Crabtree [00:06:19]: I could not believe that there was a concentration, a profession, a pathway that even exposes you to health and the meaning of that across cultures. And so I took that class. I learned about Eastern medicine. I learned about medicine in pretty much every continent, and it was there that I decided that, public health, this is what I want to do. This is where I need to be. I am passionate about health and helping people. And at the time, University of Michigan Flint offered, MS in health education. And my senior year of undergrad, I actually took the first grad course, which was health behavior theory or something along those lines.

Endia Crabtree [00:07:06]: It may have a different name by now, but health behavior theory with doctor Shan Parker. And I was given the opportunity to take that course, which is the first course in the program to see how I would do before I was granted full enrollment. It was extremely difficult, but I loved it. I learned so much. That was a huge pivot from the way that I had to think to the way that I had to write. And I went from more of a qualitative thinker to a quantitative thinker, and the rest is history. And it was also there that I learned that I need to pick a population, which for me at the time was HIV and STI among black or African Americans and other minorities. Just trying to understand the impact of that disease from both a knowledge standpoint.

Endia Crabtree [00:07:54]: So what do people already know about this? What is the understanding of transmission and treatment and the long term effects of that? And I chose that disease ailment at the time because that is what my adviser was working on. And so and so that's why I decided to go into that program. I did the MS in health education or public health education as I like to put it. I like to put the public health in there instead of just leaving it as health education is often confused with gym teacher, which is an honorable pathway and profession, but it is often confused. So saying public health education over just health education was better understood by the public when I talk to people about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:34]: So I know that you completed that degree, You finished that program up. You went. You did some work out in the field. You you did a number of different things over the years. And at some point, between the end of that degree and the late 20 tens, you decided to get another degree, and you decided to start a program toward a doctorate of philosophy, a PhD in public health education. So talk to me about that and why you made the decision that you wanted to go further and go from having that master of science in public health education to then pushing yourself to getting a doctor degree in in public education as well.

Endia Crabtree [00:09:16]: So I knew pretty early on, honestly, as an undergrad that I would need to pursue as high education as possible. I knew at least my junior year, even before I decided which pathway that I wanted to take, I always knew I need to get a PhD. Anthropology is not a major or at least at the time, and I I wanna make that clear for back in 2005 to 2010. If you major in anthropology, you are majoring in a profession that you do need to get graduate education on. At the time, I knew of no other anthropologist regardless of their chosen pathway, whether it be cultural, forensic, biological anthropology, linguistics, They all went on for a PhD. And even though I did pivot from anthropology to public health, it's the same story. Though public health professionals can stop and often do stop at an Miles per hour, which is totally fine, I knew that I wanted to do research. And if I was gonna be taken seriously as a research, and honestly, as a black woman, I felt that I needed to do it all.

Endia Crabtree [00:10:30]: Like, I needed to go as far as possible so that not only will I give myself access to several jobs in public health, in the sciences, as a scientist, as a a person who's, you know, taking seriously as a researcher that I would not leave myself any gaps, that that I would not leave any room for denial for a particular position because I don't have that. And wanting to be a scientist slash researcher going to get a PhD, it trains you and exposes you to what that actual environment looks like regardless of the path chosen. When I was in my 2nd year of the MS in public health education program when I realized that I wanted to pivot from HIV to cancer. So I actually have a family history of cancer. My mother had colorectal cancer when I was 13, stage 3, and she was only 42 at the time. So familiar with Chadwick Boseman, she was literally in the same boat as him, but she's still with us today. Believe it or not, she what was that? 20,021,001 when she was diagnosed, but it made a huge impact on me. I didn't just wanna be behind the scenes to find a treatment for cancer.

Endia Crabtree [00:11:49]: I also wanted to be like I wanted to understand the the who, what, when, where, why. I wanted to understand the cause the cause and effect. What causes this? Why are certain populations more affected than others? Why was my mother diagnosed so early? Was it the job that she worked? Is it the ZIP code that we lived in? I mean, I had these questions. These are my these are the questions that I had. I wanted to understand, and she's not the only person my family affected. I am from Flint, Michigan. I grew up there. My parents worked in GM.

Endia Crabtree [00:12:19]: My father's a Vietnam vet. A lot of people were inflicted with cancer there. And so, no, this is my life. I never did it for accolades either. I just wanted to have opportunity. But, yes, I pivoted my my second year second and last year of the MS program and pursued a PhD in public health education, but I had a concentration in epidemiology. And I concentrate in epidemiology so that I can, you know, focus on the who, what, when, where, the distribution of the disease, who's affected, why why is a person in ZIP code a, Why are they experiencing later diagnoses in a person in ZIP code b? Is it because of money, socioeconomic status? Is it simply because a person is a person of color, or is it because of where they live and their circumstances and the food that they have access to? So these are real questions that are being asked and are being researched, and I wanted to know not just what causes it, but how does it come back. So I was on the survivorship end of the spectrum.

Endia Crabtree [00:13:20]: And while I was in school studying this, having all this on my mind, trying to figure it out, I was also a full time employee at FedEx. I am one of the rare few who went school full time and worked full time. I needed to make money, and I also needed to get this degree. And I still finished on time somehow. But because I was working full time, I was not a traditional PhD student, so I was not able to dedicate as much time to research and publishing outside of my dissertation work. So it was actually my 2nd year of my PhD program when I realized I needed to go on and pursue a postdoc. So, postdoctoral fellowship where I did 2 years at the University of sin Cincinnati Cancer Institute, where I had the honor and privilege to working with doctor Beverly Riegle, who started their cancer survivorship clinic. And it was there that I got to work with the team to start a clinic and learn about research from the administrative side.

Endia Crabtree [00:14:22]: And that was an awesome experience, but because I was learning from the administrative side and still, just like with my PhD, didn't have much opportunity to pursue research full time as a traditional student slash postdoc. I went on and did another 2 years at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And while I was there, in order to supplement my education and when I was learning, I was taking courses. Like, I did a certificate here, certificate there, and took some courses at Johns Hopkins University. And the courses that I took, which were I took geographic information systems, and I took an environmental health course. I learned that I could actually earn a degree if I took just a few more courses. So I went ahead and pursued the master's of liberal arts. I had no initial plans to do this, but while I was on track, I was like, I might as well.

Endia Crabtree [00:15:15]: Like, I've been a student so long, and I knew how to do it. So I just went ahead and and pursued that. But I'm really thankful for that because I while I was at Johns Hopkins, I also gained a new a new network, and I was able to work on a social epidemiology project that I was interested in. And I did that from 2017 to 2019. I enjoyed that. And although that was a great opportunity as well as my postdoc, I needed to settle myself back down and sort of come back out of the clouds and say, okay. What am I gonna do with all of this? Now I have a lot. I have more than I ever imagined.

Endia Crabtree [00:15:54]: I have a certificate in in environmental epidemiology at the Ohio State University. I have this new MLA, the PhD, the MS. I have all of these credentials, but I need to actually pull all of this together and do something with it and well, make a decision about it. I knew that I was gonna do something. I was not gonna do my math with not you know, with nothing to show for it. But when I was a post tech at children's, I was really involved with the office of postdoctoral affairs, and I actually, along with other postdoctoral fellows, created a diversity group in partnership between the University of Cincinnati and Cincinnati Children's. And and I got to learn a lot about what people were doing with their pathways where we were all different PhDs from biomedical science to psychology to biomedical informatics. I mean, everyone was doing a little bit of we were really diverse.

Endia Crabtree [00:16:49]: We were representing all sorts of fields. But, yeah, I was there at Cincinnati Children's Hospital that I learned about what it really meant to be a researcher in an academic space. And over time, I learned that that wasn't for me. As much as I will forever be passionate about cancer research and as much as that means to me, I didn't think it was the right space for me to be in an academic center. So I began to search other opportunities of which I learned about the pathway that I'm in now, which I will get into later, is medical writing. And I learned about that field through a postdoc careers panel. That was a panel event that happened. It was at one of our monthly postdoctoral affairs meetings.

Endia Crabtree [00:17:28]: So

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:29]: one of the things that I think that I'm gonna have you explain because we haven't had a lot of people on the show that have done postdocs. So talk to me a little bit about what is a postdoc so that people can understand what that is. And you did a number of different postdocs. So how does someone find these postdocs, and and what type of you know, what's the expectation for someone in these type of roles, etcetera?

Endia Crabtree [00:17:56]: So a postdoc is someone who is going on to do research in a learning environment who has earned a PhD or a similar doctoral degree, such as like a doctor of public health. And I've even known MD, PhD, so medical doctors who are also pursuing the physician scientist roles. So not only are they a physician, but they're also PIs or principal investigators or leaders in a laboratory. So, for example, a neurosurgeon who is also a neuroscientist, but I pursued a postdoc because a postdoctoral fellowship or post or postdoc for short, I pursued that because of my unique experience as a PhD student who did not have as much research exposure doing active research at a traditional PhD student. So by that, I mean, someone who may be able to publish 2 to 5 articles based on a project that they're working with with their with a professor or their dissertation chair or whatnot. And postdoctoral fellowships can vary. You could be like, if you're pursuing biology, maybe you're a PhD or post doctoral fellow in the biology lab of a National Institute of Health funded professor at University of Michigan Ann Arbor. Not Michigan State, University of Michigan Ann Arbor.

Endia Crabtree [00:19:26]: I must make that clear. And so it is there that because you already have a PhD, you're not considered like, you're not a traditional student. Like, you're no longer pursuing a degree. You're pursuing a position in the sciences in in a lab, like one day you want to learn how to run your own lab, that is a great place to be because you are leading students who are pursuing a PhD or undergrads or master students. Some of them are teaching just like PhD students, some teach courses. And so those postdoctoral fellowship, I found mine through networking. The professor who was my principal investigator, which is the name for boss for for a postdoc. Like, that's your supervisor no slash supervisor for your postdoc.

Endia Crabtree [00:20:14]: I met her through a class that I took of hers, which was cancer survivorship rehabilitation. And she and I connected so well, and I set a meeting with her, and I explained with her I explained to her what my situation was, like, that I wasn't a traditional student, that I had this passion for cancer survivorship, but it's such a niche area. She was the only person at the time that I knew that was doing that work, and I knew that I was gonna need something beyond my PhD to be ready for the workforce, whichever pathway that was. And so she and I worked together for the the my remaining years in the PhD program to come up with the grant money to fund that. Postdoctoral fellowships are funded by grants. If they're at a university or a government or a government entity like the CDC, unless you receive 1, like, at a corporation, which I do not know much about or what that looks like, but they they do come in various shapes and sizes, and they can be from 1 year to 7 years, believe it or not, with renewals in between. And the 2 postdocs that I had were each 2 years. So at UC, University of Cincinnati Cancer Institute, it was 2 years.

Endia Crabtree [00:21:28]: And then at Cincinnati Children's, it was 2 years. And my principal investigator there, I met through my current PI or principal investigator slash supervisor from my u University of Cincinnati Cancer Institute postdoc. And so that's why my postdoc was 4 years. And and I'm thankful for both of them. I'm thankful for both of those PIs, all the professors that I've met along the way. I'll forever be grateful to them for those opportunities because they definitely did prepare me for where I am now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:59]: So you mentioned that you got a doctor degree from the University of Cincinnati, and there's a lot of different types of programs that are out in the world that you could have probably chosen to look at for public health education. Talk to me about what made you decide that University of Cincinnati was the right program for you.

Endia Crabtree [00:22:18]: My mother's from Hamilton, Ohio, and actually do have some family here. And I was always familiar with Cincinnati. I had an older cousin who went there, and I was also familiar with some of the professors at in the public health education department or program at UC, and it's also a Research 1 institution similar to the University of Michigan system. And Research 1 institution just simply means high research impact or output university, where they have a lot of research dollars, a lot of labs, state of the art labs and equipment, and it was a big school. And I am a person who's really big on cross collaboration. I've been cross collaborating across departments since I was in undergrad. For example, my cancer survivorship professor at the University of Cincinnati was a PhD in nursing. She has a nursing she is a nurse.

Endia Crabtree [00:23:15]: She's an RN. She's not a public health professional, but she was doing cancer survivorship. I care more about who was doing the work than what their concentration was, And that's how I ended up with her. That's how I ended up with still I have to have my health education dissertation people. And for at children's, my research supervisor or PI, she was a clinical psychologist. But, anyway, there was a lot of opportunity here in Cincinnati that that mirrored what I experienced in Michigan. And what I actually did mention earlier was that when I was a MS student, a master's in health education student at University of Michigan Flint, I had a great opportunity to be a part of a research project that was in partnership with Ann Arbor. So I actually got to go to Ann Arbor a lot.

Endia Crabtree [00:24:05]: I half of my work was done in Ann Arbor, and the other half was, my research work was in Ann Arbor. My coursework was in University of Michigan Flint, and it was really cool to be able to be there in their public health department and to sit in their classrooms and be a part of those workshops and to get to know professors there that I work with on on an HIV project. So and that's the beauty of that system of the University of Michigan system is that, hey. I I took classes at University of Michigan Flint. I was able to get the one professor for every 35 student ratio. So I had the small class sizes, but I had the research experience of someone in Ann Arbor. And I was a part of the undergraduate research opportunity program, which is called UROP or u r o p, and I got to present at University of Michigan Dearborn. So so I've been at every single campus just because of one research project that I worked on, and that was really cool.

Endia Crabtree [00:25:05]: And Cincinnati, it has one other no. There's there are 2 other campuses. I haven't been to the other 2, Clermont and Blue Ash, but the university is huge, and it has a massive hospitals. Again, it reminded me a lot of Ann Arbor, a lot of the University of Michigan system. And so that was also part of what what attracted me in addition to my family being here and the professors that that were here as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:30]: Now you did finish your degree. You found success in graduate school, in the master's degrees, in the PhD. And as you entered each and every one of those programs, you go through a transition. And there is a, at every point in your education, you have to learn about that new way that that school educates, the professors educate. You know, there's a lot of pieces that you have to figure out along the way. As you think back to the experiences that you had, as you transitioned into graduate school at all of those different levels, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned in? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that entire graduate school experience?

Endia Crabtree [00:26:15]: For every level, even where I am today, is be vocal and intentional. I always do my own research before I do everything. I never went into any situation or to any program assuming that, okay, I'm gonna get this degree, and I'm gonna have a job waiting for me. That is just not reality. I am a person who will talk to anyone. And if I want to know something, I just reach out to people. I got comfortable with doing that because of my involvement. I have been involved with several professional societies ever since I've been in undergrad.

Endia Crabtree [00:26:49]: I started off in the American Anthropology Association. I joined a committee there, And then next, I joined the American Public Health Association. I joined the Society of Public Health Education. I was inducted to Eta Sigma Gamma Health Education Honor Society. I mean, the Anthropology Honor Society, Lambda Alpha. And my involvement with professional societies has been in alignment with what I am doing or where I am at that time. Although I'm no longer a member of the American Public Health Association, I'm still a supporter of it because they do a ton of work for the overall public health of not just the US, but globally. But I've, you know, with each step, I've I've joined the American I mean, sorry, the National Postdoctoral Association, MedTech Women, which I am a woman in MedTech now.

Endia Crabtree [00:27:37]: So I joined MedTech Women. And with each organization I involve, I don't just join to be a member. I join committees. And in those committees, I meet people, and the people that I meet are doing things that may or may not be aligned with what I'm doing, but I do learn a lot from them. And I've mentored and was a mentee and vice versa. I do both. I have a mentor and I'm a mentee, and it's all about learning and just being open to learning and not afraid to pivot or to do something different. Your dream job may not be the title that you even like, what I my title now, I would've I've never heard of until I got this position, but the job description had it all.

Endia Crabtree [00:28:19]: And I highly recommend researching beyond what you know. Get out of your comfort zone. Do talk to people. Do get involved. Joining organizations also is not cheap, so be very intentional about which ones you join and when. But it's also, you know, a two way street. Don't just be a part of something just to be a part of or just to throw it on your resume. What did you contribute? What did you give back? You know, what was your service? Did you publish with people? Did you help collect some research data? Did you do anything to improve the organization? You learn leadership skills, and what you learn, you give back.

Endia Crabtree [00:28:57]: I'm really big on that, especially someone being someone from Flint, Michigan. I always give Flint a shout out. I I went to Flint Community Schools. I went to Flint Southwestern Academy, which is now Flint Southwestern Classical Academy. It has so many names with the schools. None of this was ever for me, and and I am a resource too. Just FYI, please get my email and LinkedIn. But, yeah, just just be open and willing because pivoting was the best thing I've ever done and continue to do.

Endia Crabtree [00:29:28]: I have been in my current field now for 5 years in the medical technology industry. I do actually use what I learned in school, what I learned in the committees. I do apply leadership aptitude, emotional intelligence. I have over a decade of experience in diversity, equity, and inclusion work. I gained all that just from being in, like, serving in committees in professional societies. And I met a lot of people along the way, and it's okay to do that. It's okay to talk to someone who, you know, if you're going into public health, it's okay to talk to a physician or a nurse or a psychologist, which is are all things I did. And I learned a lot from all those different people, even people who weren't doing cancer research or HIV research.

Endia Crabtree [00:30:12]: It didn't matter to me. You can learn from anyone, but do your best not to lose focus, but also know that opportunities are all around you. But you have to take the leap to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:21]: Now one of the things that I would have an interest in hearing more from you on is that you've got now a few different degrees. You've got the public health education at both the master's and doctorate level. You did a master, liberal studies as well, and you have your bachelor's degree in anthropology. So you have a a a wide array of different education under your belt, plus the postdocs that we are also already talked about. So as you've completed these degrees and now you're in your professional career and you look back at this graduate education that you've had, how has it prepared you to do the work that you do on a daily basis?

Endia Crabtree [00:31:01]: Well, the programs that I was a part of, each and every one of them instilled in us the importance of accountability. So I do hold myself accountable. I hold myself responsible, but I also know and have learned in those programs that I can ask questions. I ask questions in front of people in the classroom. I ask questions outside of the classroom. Believe it or not, those group projects that you probably hate in school right now do actually matter, and you actually will be working with other people. I work cross functionally right now with a lot of people. I work in groups every day.

Endia Crabtree [00:31:46]: Those groups can change. I work with a lot of different people, not just from the US, but also across the globe. And those group projects that I used to hate and wonder why, wonder why I was doing that, I look back at that and I'm like, okay. So not only was I put in a position to learn how to work with other people, but also how to plan and strategize, set goals, set timelines. And and, yeah, like, of all things that I've learned outside of being accountable, taking responsibility, but also learning how to work with people, I at no point working a silo, and I so appreciate all of those group projects. That is all grad one thing I can remember about grad school is that is most of what it was outside of the tests and the papers is group project this, group project that. Every assignment was a project with some people. And I'm like, okay.

Endia Crabtree [00:32:44]: Thank god I did that because that might have been a lot harder today. And that continued on through post doc too. That was you know, that that continued on. It is my life now, and I'm thankful for that. So definitely group work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:58]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. As you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to all students that would help them find success sooner?

Endia Crabtree [00:33:13]: Understand that your class mates are your allies, not your competition. We get through grad school a lot smoother when we work together. And by working together, I do not mean what did that test look like, not your grades, not how am I gonna get through this task. It's how am I gonna get through with these people, with my cohort? What can we do to uplift each other? Uplift your classmates. Your professor is your resource. Don't be afraid to ask them questions. You may come across upperclassmen, which isn't really a thing in grad school, but someone who's in their 2nd year or something. Talk to that person.

Endia Crabtree [00:33:54]: Ask them how they got through their 1st year. I'm just a huge proponent of reaching out to people. And I'm also introverted, believe it or not. I get tired. I get exhausted. You can do that as an intro. You do not have to be an extrovert to talk to to talk to people. We all have our different ways of doing so.

Endia Crabtree [00:34:14]: For me, I wasn't always outspoken in class. I became that out over time, but initially, I would just shoot an email or, you know, if I become friends with someone, send a text or there were various ways to do that. It doesn't you don't have to be there's no one way to do it, but just know that, again, I can't stress enough that your classmates are not your competition, like, you are each other's allies, and please take advantage of that. You make lifetime friends. Actually, my maid of honor was my was one of my, PhD classmates. He became my lifetime best friend. You never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:48]: Well, Endia, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for opening our eyes to the different types of opportunities that may exist post PhD or beyond to be able to continue that education and make the world a better place. And I truly wish you all the best.

Endia Crabtree [00:35:06]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:07]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].