Victors in Grad School

Undertaking the path from a Bachelor's degree to gaining a Ph.D. in Physical Therapy (PT) is not just an academic pursuit but a transformative journey of personal and professional growth. Dr. Cathy Larson, the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, joins the Victors in Grad School podcast to share her remarkable voyage through the layers of graduate education, her decision points, and insights for aspiring scholars.

The Early Years: Finding Direction From Pre-Vet to Physical Therapy

Dr. Larson embarked on her academic journey at Michigan State University intending to become a veterinarian. However, a pivot towards human healthcare led her to discover physical therapy. Experiences shadowing PTs and OTs at Sparrow Hospital sparked her interest in the field, prompting her to shift her focus from pre-vet to physiology to better prepare for a PT career.

Exploring Educational Options

At a time when PT programs were transitioning from bachelor's to master's degrees, Dr. Larson was strategic in her selection, focusing on institutions offering a Master of Science. After visiting several campuses, the University of Alabama stood out due to her connection with the faculty and the research opportunities it offered. She cherished her clinical and educational experiences, working in diverse locations and handling a wide range of cases, including some in unconventional settings like Cook County Hospital in Chicago.

The Leap to Academia Returning to Academia

Despite an enriching clinical career spanning three decades, Dr. Larson felt an insatiable curiosity and a desire to delve deeper into research. Balancing young children and a part-time clinical position, she pursued her Ph.D. in Kinesiology at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, seeking to gain the skills necessary for independent research and to fulfill her passion for teaching.

Developing Research Skills

Dr. Larson highlighted the need for a Ph.D. to conduct rigorous research, which is integral to addressing complex questions arising in clinical practice. Her coursework and seminars equipped her with advanced research methodologies and critical evaluation skills, elements she felt lacked even in advanced clinical practice.

Teaching and Nurturing New Generations Directing the PT PhD Program

As the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, Dr. Larson now leads the charge in preparing future physical therapists for academic and research roles. She underscores the program's unique blend of catering to those who have completed their DPT and those pursuing dual DPT/PhD paths, thus fulfilling a niche in physical therapy education.

Preparing for Success in Graduate School

Dr. Larson reflects on the evolution from clinician to scholar, emphasizing the importance of organizational skills, effective study strategies, and stress management. These foundational elements, cultivated during undergraduate studies, are crucial for thriving in the rigorous environment of graduate programs.

Embracing Continuous Learning The Multifaceted Career of a Physical Therapist

One of the appeals of the physical therapy profession, as Dr. Larson articulates, is its versatility. Physical therapists can engage in clinical practice, education, research, or a combination thereof, continually evolving within their careers without needing to switch fields entirely. This multidisciplinary nature enriches the professional landscape, allowing PTs to pursue diverse passions and redefine their roles continuously.

Dr. Larson's journey underscores that graduate education, particularly in physical therapy, is more than a means to an end—it's a path of continuous learning and professional development. Her insights offer invaluable guidance for those considering advanced degrees, illustrating that the quest for knowledge and improvement doesn't stop at the clinic but extends into the realms of research and education. Aspiring PTs can draw inspiration from her experiences and understand that every step, every challenge, and every triumph on this path is a significant stride toward making impactful contributions to the field of physical therapy.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. We have this opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to look at what I call your journey, your educational journey. It is a journey because no matter where you are, you may be just starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you applied, you're waiting on that answer, or you got that answer and you and you've gotten accepted and now you're figuring out, am I going to go there? Am I going to do this? You know, what's next? Or maybe you're in graduate school and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're or maybe you're close to being done. And now you're looking at what's next.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: No matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to have this opportunity to talk with you, to walk with you, to help you to find success, find tools, find resources, things that you can do to be able to build some tools for your own toolbox and prepare yourself even more for the success that you want in graduate school. Every week, I introduce you to different people with different experiences. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor Cathy Larson is with us. And doctor Larson is the director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have her here. She did her undergraduate work at Michigan State University, getting a bachelor's in physiology, and then went on and got a master of science degree in physical therapy when all the PG programs were still requiring the master's. That's changed now. Now all the PT programs are requiring a doctorate degree in physical therapy. And her PT degree was from the University of Alabama. And then she went on to get a PhD in kinesiology from the University of Michigan. So I'm really excited for her to share some of her own journey with you, but also her journey as a faculty member. And I'm excited to introduce her to you. Cathy, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:16]: Well, thank you, Chris. It was a nice introduction. And yes, that so far has been my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]: Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And what I wanna do first and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna use that magic wand of mine to go back in time. And I wanna go back to Michigan State University, where you were working on that bachelor's degree. And at some point during that time at Michigan State University, you had this inkling, you had this thought, you said, I want to go beyond getting this bachelor's degree in physiology to get a degree in physical therapy. Talk to me about that point. What made you decide physical therapy was the field that you wanted to study?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:55]: Well, that's a great question because to be honest with you, I went to Michigan State University thinking that I was going to become a vet. They have a great vet school at Michigan State. I went there and maybe I'm still a vet wannabe, but I did get the opportunity to explore different careers, and I was looking for a health career. So I decided that I wanted to really be beneficial to not animals, but human beings. So I I got the opportunity to go and explore different health fields. I went to Sparrow Hospital, for example, and observed their PT department, OT, etcetera. And then I really got a spark when I was exploring physical therapy. And so I contemplated quite a while to figure out if that's what I wanted to do.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:03:51]: And so I did shadow some physical therapists. I shadowed an OT as well, but then I decided that PT was what I wanted to do. I was pre vet. So I ended up trying to figure out which undergraduate degree would best prepare me for PT. So I chose first physiology, which I got to do some research as an undergraduate student. I was able to take all my prerequisites for my PT degree, applying for the PT degree. And at that point in time, it was a master's degree. So there were only like maybe 8 programs, because this was in the period when we were converting from bachelor programs to master's degrees.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:04:38]: And I was starting to get to the point that I was almost at the end of my bachelor's degree when I decided. So I ended up really just thinking about that. And to be honest with you, my mom was really influential in saying, well, if you've got, if you're close to a bachelor's degree, finish that and then try to apply for a master's degree, which in the long run really served me well because then I had the master's degree and the ability to apply for a PhD. So I had that master's degree and it was in physical therapy. It was in Alabama. So I loved Birmingham. I loved the warm weather. I remember walking around with all the dogwood trees and all the rhododendrons, etcetera.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:24]: But I really enjoyed that experience because there were only 8 people in the master's program, but then there were a much larger number in the bachelor's program. So they had both and the 8 of us were treated, I want to say a little bit special because we got more individual attention. I just got great experiences. I had great clinical experiences in my master's degree. I still think back on those and I got to do them across the country. So I was in St. Louis for a while. I was actually in Kentucky and did some of my clinicals.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:58]: I did one in Chicago, which was very meaningful because I was born in bad ex Michigan. I'm a rural girl. And so going to Chicago and I was working at Cook County Hospital there or doing my affiliation, my clinical affiliation at Cook County. And I ended up treating a patient that was in shackles and, you know, that was a little difficult to have him walk up the stairs, but I was exposed to a huge variety of patients. I remember this was the first time that I saw a patient wearing a halo, which is a huge cumbersome neck brace, which we still use in PT. But I, he was walking around with the halo and I'm going, wait a minute, this does not compute. He had a spinal cord injury and he's walking around, but he was mainly involved in his upper extremities. So it was just like very startling.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:06:57]: So my journey has been kind of a longer one because I, you know, I did do my bachelor's degree then, I did immediately go into my master's degree, but then I waited to start my PhD in Ann Arbor. Now I lived in the Ypsilanti area, so Ann Arbor was close, but I needed to go and talk to potential chairs. So you do need to align yourself just like we do now for our PhD program at U of M Flint. You do want to align yourself with a chair that is investigating areas of study that are passions for you as well. So to match up with a chair. So I did a lot of exploration and I did find Charles Warrenham, who was my initial chair at U of M in Ann Arbor. And he was studying movement sciences, which mirrored in, you know, it was a definite positive experience for me as a physical therapist. And I did work in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:06]: I worked in the clinic. I'm not working right now, but I worked in the clinic for a significantly long time, mainly at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in Detroit that I worked as a clinician for, what, 30 years total on and off.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: One question that I have for you is you had mentioned back at the master's level. Let's go back there first. You talked about the fact that at the time when you were looking at physical therapy schools, there were only a handful of schools out there. So I'm sure you did some searching, some exploration to look at those 8 programs that you mentioned that were out there that would allow for a student to come in at a master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for? Master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for and what made you ultimately decide to go to the University of Alabama?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:57]: Well, the University of Alabama had a master's of science. So that's why, what I was looking for. So I did want that master's degree, but I visited many of the campuses. So fortunately I had the financial means to go and, and some of them actually did, have obligatory. This was before internet. So we needed to travel as opposed to having an online interview. That was not an option at that time. So I did visit a few of those places.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:09:32]: And then I just, when I got to the university of Alabama, I just clicked with the faculty that I was interviewing and speaking with. I was allowed to, you know, talk with faculty over a 2 day period, which gave me a lot of time to get to know people. And then, so, and then I just clicked with several of the faculty members and it was a pleasure to get to know them, understand what their research is. And then to be honest with you, we didn't figure out exactly the who was gonna chair my master's thesis, but that, that ended up being a very positive experience. So it was a connection with the faculty and what they do and their program and they're laying it out and laid the program out. There were a huge dynamic faculty there and they influenced my decisions. And so while I was there, I was starting to say, you know what? I do wanna be a clinician first. So I was a clinician for multiple years until I decided to go back and get my PhD, but I ended up through the master's degree experience, wanting to be like these dynamic faculty.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:10:47]: And they were dynamic for multiple reasons. They helped you learn the material. They had time for 1 on 1 conversations while you're going through the courses, but they were also very involved with the American Physical Therapy Association. And they would bring speakers in, and we would learn from the speakers. I started going to the combined sections meetings through the APTA as a student there. I became a member of the APTA as a student way back when, and I have maintained my membership in the APTA ever since my student experience. So that was influential. When I was at the conferences, the faculty introduced me and helped me start to build my network.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:11:39]: So I'm talking too much about what happened as a master's student, but also your, your main question was what influenced me. And it truly was the connection with the faculty that said, okay, this is my home. This can be my home for a period of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: And I mentioned at the beginning, and you mentioned the journey continued on after going out, working, being a professional clinician for a number of years, you decided to go back to school to get a PhD. And not every physical therapist wants to do that. You know, many PTs are they're happy with the patient contact, the patient care, the work that they're doing in that clinical setting. You decided you wanted to go further, continue on with the re some of the research things that you you enjoyed and your master's degree. So talk to me about that decision. What made you decide that going back to school to get that PhD in kinesiology was the route that you wanted to take?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:12:42]: Okay. Well, I would like to express to you that I had young children at the time. So I was like, should I delay? Should I delay? And then I spoke to myself. I ended up going part time as a clinician. So I cut down my hours and then I joined the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Kinesiology department. I just really wanted to well, as a clinician, I didn't feel like I had the tools to perform research as well as I would like to. So I did not believe like, we had the opportunity to do research as a master's degree student, but I still didn't think I had the tools to make this research a big part of my career. So I was feeling that when I was in the clinic, I was like, well, I certainly would like to address this question about patient care or I'd like to do this about, you know, I would have issues arise with my patients and I'm going, I would really like to explore those issues, but to I didn't feel like I had the skills.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:13:51]: So I looked for a PhD program. Ann Arbor was a beautiful experience in that I learned so many skills that I did not have as a clinician to be able to carry out my own independent research projects. And that's what I think every PhD student's goal is to really dive into, like, research design, how to, of course, critically evaluate a research study and know enough about statistics to understand if they were correctly done. You look at a paper where the results that they have leading to the conclusions that they made or the discussion that they had for their research study. And I got a lot of opportunity to do that in my PhD, which I didn't have as a clinician at that point well enough to give me confidence to do independent research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]: Now from there, you moved into academia and got into an opportunity to be able to teach other students and to be able to connect with other students where now you are leading the charge of working with PhD students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And kind of like the experience that you had with the master's program, there aren't a ton of PhD in physical therapy programs in the United States. Can you talk to me about the PT PhD? Let's talk about that specifically and why it was important for the University of Michigan Flint to create that program and to encourage clinicians, people with a terminal degree to continue on to get that PhD.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:15:36]: We first and there were others that were part of this, this first designing of a PhD program in physical therapy. And I just wanna help you understand and the audience to understand that you're right. This is a PhD in physical therapy that we offer at the University of Michigan Flint. It does prepare you to teach in doctor, you know, the DPT, doctor of physical therapy programs, and serve as a faculty for DP and DPT programs, as well as to do research, which I have the strong passion to try to help facilitate that experience for individuals that would like to seek a PhD. There are those that either right away, because we have a dual DPT PhD program that right away say, yes, I have aspirations to become a faculty member. And, you know, I had these career aspirations to be a faculty member and a researcher primary, you know, in physical therapy, or it could be a slightly broader. They might do their research and any of the healthcare health services. So, but mainly research that will help facilitate and answer questions for the PT profession.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:17:01]: So those individuals that really know right away that they want to teach and do research, it's a great avenue, even as, as you're going through the DPT program, you can apply and go through the dual program. Otherwise there is, you know, you can already have your degree in physical therapy and then apply for the PhD program. And then again, learn the skills to become an independent researcher. And also we have 6 credits in out of the 45 total credits that you need to take 45 45 to 55 credits that you need to take to get your PhD degree, we have we have the option for both of those avenues, either the dual program or once you have your degree, you can apply and and for the PhD program. When a student comes into a physical therapy program, in their in most of their minds, they're thinking clinic. They're thinking, I wanna help people to be able to regain motion,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:10]: to regain the the daily activity motion skills that they want after an injury or after an illness or after whatever it is in their life that has caused them to lose that mobility. So going into a program like this, many of them may not even have a notion that getting a PhD, 1, is an option or 2, is what they want to do, or many of them may not even know what does it take beyond getting a DPT to be able to do that. So as you talk to students and kind of open their eyes to the the concept of getting a PhD in physical therapy, specifically, what are the things that you try to impress most on those students that are they're gaining the clinical skills and they're gaining some research as a part of the DPT because it is a doctorate degree. But to impart on them what the next step really is, what are some of those things that you impart on them to be able to differentiate for them what they will be doing as a part of a clinical doctorate program versus the PhD program?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:19:21]: Well, let's first talk about the individuals that already have their physical therapy degree and they're practicing as clinicians. I know that was my journey. I loved being a clinician. I love doing that, but then eventually many individuals that are clinicians may say, okay, you know, I'm hungry when it comes to learning and learning. I'm hungry. I went to all the continuing education courses I could as a clinician. I read a lot. We had journal clubs as a clinician and, you know, a lot of times I did lead those, but others led them and we had very, very dynamic group.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:20:04]: But unfortunately in the clinic, sometimes you don't have time to devote to, there are productivity issues, which are expected of you, and then there's less time to do some educational exploration. So, so many, many clinicians might say, I need more, I need to feed the, the side of me that needs, that needs more education, that needs discussions. And, you know, you can do that with other avenues, but if you say, Oh, I feel I'm very confident as a, as a clinician, but now I want more, I want to do something else. And then they might take, you know, of course as a clinician, you might serve as a clinical instructor. And so you might be instructing on a clinical, in a clinical venue, individual PT students and helping them develop their clinical skills. And so you get some of your educational, you know, your teaching and education, they teach you half the time, some new information, the student, the, and the clinics teach you, and then you wanna explore it more. And then you say, I would like to spend more time and have a little more time to, explore the educational side of things. And that can be done definitely in a PhD program, but also many of us faculty, at least probably practice one day a week still in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:21:46]: And then also, you know, so we are allowed, at least in my contract here, we're allowed at least one day away to act as a clinician and do that so we can keep up our clinical skills as well. So there is the best of both worlds. You can still teach without a PhD. You can teach with a DPT, but to be competitive in the hiring process for faculty, they will look at individuals who apply for the faculty positions with PhDs. Those applications will rise to the top of the stack because most PT educational programs need people to continue research. And they also need, people that will specialize in certain top, like I teach the neuro classes. I teach a lot of classes that have to do with neuroscience. I teach motor control and motor learning because of my background at Ann Arbor.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:22:49]: I also teach neurological conditions, but then I also chair a lot of the PhD students or facilitate their educational process. But I just love the different avenues. And and may I speak to that? I love physical therapy because you can almost, in quotes, change your position or change your employment within the field. So I can be a clinician. I could go and get special credentialing through the APDA in areas like neurological, areas or, you know, geriatrics or orthopedics or whatever I could get my specialization certification. So that would facilitate your ability to teach in certain areas. I feel like I've had multiple careers because I was a clinician only. Then I went part time and did part time teaching.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:23:47]: I then went back to clinician only for a while, but then after I got my PhD, I became a faculty member. So I feel like, and then researcher in there too. So that feels like an, another avenue, another career avenue. So some other programs you might go through a program, you might get education in that field, and then you wanna change because things just change for your career aspirations. And, but then you might have to go back and get more education to go into a different field. In PT, I feel like I've changed fields without going back. Well, I got my PhD, but without, having to explore a whole another career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]: Now going back to your own education, I know, I mean, you found success. You got the master's. You got that PhD. You continued on in your career. As any student transitions into different educational models, there are different ways of learning, there's different expectations, and you have to learn what those are to find success. Can you think back to your own transitions, your transition into your master's degree, your transition into your doctorate degree, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those educational models and at those institutions to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate programs?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:17]: I can give you a few examples of that. Okay. We would have as PhD students and the master students could end up going to these. In Ann Arbor, they would have these seminars where guest speakers would come in and speak to us. Okay. When I went to my first one, I was like, whoosh, you know, what they were talking about. I maybe understood the first 10 minutes and I was like, okay, I'm lost. So I really had to like, think about where did my comprehension fail? But as I kept attending and as I kept learning, I was so pleased.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:57]: Okay. Now I can hang in for 30 minutes and I can like get all the details. And so it was progressive successes. And sometimes they're just so small, like, okay, today I held in there 30 minutes and I followed what was said, but then the details got beyond me. And then I could track my progress in the program because by the end of the 1st year, or maybe into the 2nd, middle of the 2nd year, I was following all the conversations and I could be confident in asking questions that weren't too stupid. So, or I'm, maybe I should say another word for that, but I felt comfortable to ask questions from a knowledge base. Now they still might not have been to the knowledge base of these excellent guest speakers, but I always accept that there's more to learn. And even as, for example, another thing that I could speak to is that many of our PhD students, we start to try to challenge them to present information and then be able to handle questions and answers and be able to ask questions of their fellow students in a very respectful, but trying to probe for more information.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:27:22]: And we'd like to give our students those experiences. So then if they get the opportunity to go out and speak at a state level conference or a national level conference, they will feel confident in many of our students, both the DPT students and the PhD students are invited to go to state conferences. Our APTA combined section is usually in January or February to go to that. There is fortunately the partial support for student travel and many of our students get to go to these conferences and they could either attend and get in from new information at the conference, or we encourage them to eventually present either a poster or a platform presentation, and we try to help them build those skills. So they're like, they can handle the other question and answer period. I don't know if I went on a tangent here, but it's just some really cool opportunities for growth. Did I answer your original question? Because I have a tendency to wander.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: Now you have transitioned into your faculty role. You work with PhD PhD students, DPT students. You're working with students on a regular basis. As you think about the experience that you had in your own graduate education, and as you think about the interactions and the work that you do with graduate students, and you think about students just thinking about graduate school in general. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate school, whether it be for physical therapy or for other graduate programs that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:29:00]: I'm gonna really go basic here. I do believe that sometimes the studying strategies for undergraduate depends on the undergraduate program, how rigorous the program is, and what study strategies and test taking strategies that students develop over time. So we actually have a course in our 1st year, the 1st semester of our DPT program to help you at least explore your test taking strategies, your study strategies. And the biggest thing is organization sometimes. I find that some students don't use the calendar or use their calendar on their cell phone or their calendar on their computer, whatever. And then they don't have a strategy for getting assignments in on time. And so if, as an undergrad student, you can really attend to those basic skills. And so that you're not struggling with, and I think this has gotten, this is my personal opinion, but I think this has gotten a little bit more troublesome for students during the COVID and post COVID years where a lot of the courses were online.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:30:17]: So, but just being, learning to be very proactive about how you organize yourself, testing and studying strategies, but also managing stress because the DPT program and the PhD program, they can be stressful and you need to learn to manage ways to divide your time appropriately, to study for each course, you need to develop all of those skills. And the more that you develop them as an undergraduate student, you can definitely carry them out as a graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:50]: Well, Cathy, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all that advice today, and I truly wish you all the best. Thanks, Chris. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:32]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Entering graduate school is a significant milestone in one's educational journey. It entails a multitude of steps, decisions, and transitions. In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, we gained valuable insights from Dr. Reza Amini, Director of the Health Care Management masters degree program at the University of Michigan-Flint as well a seasoned academic and health professional. Dr. Amini's journey from Iran to the United States highlights the complexities, challenges, and rewards of pursuing advanced degrees. Here, we further explore the key takeaways from his experiences and advice for current and prospective graduate students.

From High School to Medical Degree: A Challenge of Adaptation

Dr. Amini began his educational journey in Iran, where the system significantly differs from that in the United States. Students can transition directly from high school to medical school, contingent on their national exam scores. Reflecting on his own experience, he described the initial struggle at medical school due to the heightened expectations and rigorous study demands compared to high school.

"It took me some time to adjust myself... I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters," Dr. Amini shared, emphasizing the importance of connecting with supportive mentors and peers to navigate these early challenges. His story underlines the critical role of resilience, hard work, and the willingness to seek help in overcoming initial hurdles.

Following a Passion: The Move to Public Health

After practicing medicine for several years, Dr. Amini chose to pursue a master's degree in public health, driven by a desire to affect larger populations. His commitment to improving the lives of those with physical and mental disabilities, particularly veterans of the Iran-Iraq war, fueled this decision.

"I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice... but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time impacting more people's lives," he explained. For him, research became a powerful tool to influence health policies and create substantive changes. His experience underscores the importance of aligning one's career with personal passions and motivations.

Crossing Continents: A PhD Journey in the United States

The decision to attain a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas marked another transformative phase in Dr. Amini's career. Moving to a new country posed its own set of challenges, including adjusting to a different educational system and overcoming language and cultural barriers. Despite these obstacles, Dr. Amini remained focused on his larger goal: enhancing his research capabilities to make a global impact.

He highlighted the value of international exposure to new academic environments and resources, which expanded his research scope and professional network.

Balancing Academic and Personal Life

Dr. Amini's story is also a testament to the balancing act required of graduate students, particularly those with families. Balancing academic commitments with personal responsibilities is a recurring theme among graduate students, as noted by Dr. Amini, who juggled full-time work, study, and family life.

"Spending time at work, finding a specific time to study, it was very challenging working full time, spending enough time with my family, and at the same time doing my study," he remarked. His advice to maintain a support network and manage time effectively is crucial for anyone navigating similar challenges.

Words of Wisdom for Aspiring Graduates

Drawing from both his own experiences and his role as a mentor, Dr. Amini offers essential advice to students contemplating graduate education:

1. Follow Your Passion

   : Choose a field that you are passionate about to ensure personal satisfaction and fulfillment.

2. Be Resilient

   : Graduate school is demanding, and resilience is key to pushing through tough times.

3. Seek Support

   : Never hesitate to ask for help from mentors, peers, or family members. A strong support system can make a significant difference.

Dr. Reza Amini's journey is a powerful testament to the determination, adaptability, and passion needed to succeed in graduate school. His experiences provide invaluable lessons for anyone on the path to advanced education, reminding us all that with the right mindset and support, achieving academic and professional goals is within reach.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I say this every week, but it is so true. You are on a journey, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to continue my education? And what kind of education might I want to get additional to my bachelor's degree? Or maybe you've applied and you're waiting on that answer, or you got the answer and and you got accepted and you're ready to go. Or maybe you're in the program and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. And no matter where you are in that continuum, in that journey, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: And there are things that you can do. There are people that you can learn from that can give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success in graduate school. No matter what type of graduate school you want to go through, we're gonna be giving you tools that will help you along the way. And that's why every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences that can talk to you about the journey that they have gone on. Today, I got another great guest. Doctor Reza Amini is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: And Dr. Amini has been a faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint for a number of years, and he leads our health care management program as well as our health services administration master's degrees. And we're gonna be talking to him about his experience, not only as a student himself, but as a faculty member to give you some perspective on what he's learned along the way. Reza, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:02]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: I'm really excited to have you. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is having an opportunity to be able to turn the clock back in time. And you've gotten a number of different graduate degrees. So you went from getting that medical doctorate degree from Shiraz University of Medical Sciences, and then from there, you got a master's degree in public health from the University of Social Welfare and Rehabilitation Sciences in Tehran. And then even beyond that, you got a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas. So I wanna go back in time. I wanna go back to those years when you were a student thinking for yourself. What made you decide that you wanted to continue and go and get that initial graduate degree?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:51]: Thank you so much for giving this opportunity to me to share my experience. In Iran, the education system is a little bit different from here in the United States. Students in high school, they can go straight to medical school, but they need to sit on exam, which is a national exam and get a national rank first. And based on their national rank, they can pick the programs that they they're eligible to go to. So in my experience, I was involved in many activities that I was exposed to medical, science and medical practice. When I was in middle school, many of my family members, my relatives, they were medical doctors. And, traditionally, my family, they were somehow involved in medical practice in traditional medicine in Iran. So, yeah, I had some incentives and some motivations for my family members, and I studied hard in the last two years of my high school to get a good rank.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:04:06]: But in the first attempt, I was not very good. So my rank was about 9,000 in in the nation. But I studied 1 I spent one more year to study after graduating from high school, and my the second attempt, my rank was about 950 in the nation. So, something at that time about 2,000 people could go to medical school straight from high school, and I was eligible to do that based on my rank. So I started medical school. It takes 7 years to complete med school. It's a combination combined undergraduate and graduate section that usually student do in the United States. So that was challenging, especially in the first few years because you're in medical school, the expectation is much different from high school.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:05:10]: Right? So you go straight to a program that requires more intensive studies. It took me some time to adjust myself. I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters, but I had good connections with my faculty members and my, I found some great mentors in my peers, and they helped me to adjust myself with the new environment and new expectations. And it helped me to go through the 7 years of education. And after that, I graduated, from medical school, and I started doing medical practice as a general physician, which is very similar to family physician role in the US.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: Many times individuals at that point would say, I'm good. I don't need to continue my education. I have a career. I've got a career that pays a good salary, that I can stay in for my entire life. Now you decided to continue on after a number of years of practice and getting a master's degree in public health still in your country. So talk to me about what was the impetus for you to decide that you wanted to continue and get that master's degree after you had been working for those number of years?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:06:41]: That's a great question and somehow complex. So I try to make summarize it and at the same time explain the the incentives and motivation behind the pursuing an Miles per hour after my MD. So one of the things that almost all of the physicians and those who are working in health services and health care system, they have the passion to help other people. And it was the same for me. I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice in my office and also in some other clinics that I shared, my practice with some of my colleagues. We established, the 1st private clinic, working on addiction treatment in Iran, and it was very rewarding to have those kind of create some environment to help other people in those clinics, but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time and impacting more people's lives with with my time. So although the job as as medical doctors, nurses, other practitioners doing, they are great and they are very valuable, but I wanted to do more and impact more people's lives.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:08:11]: So I got involved in research in public health. So I was doing research and collaborating with, some researcher in a medical research center in Iran. The focus was on helping people with physical and mental disabilities to have a better life. And your audience may not know that Iran and Iraq were in war for 8 years. It was the bloodiest war in the 20th century. Half a 1000000 wounded and injured on each side, and we had a huge number of people with physical disabilities, and they were overlooked in health care system, in policy making, and in many aspects of health care. So I got involved because I saw the need for involving myself and sharing my experience and knowledge. But when you're in research, you know that there are so many things that you don't know.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:09:15]: You learn that, and it gives you more incentive to do more research, to do more studies, and expand your knowledge. So because of that, I learned during that time that there are so many things that I don't know, and I need to know that in order to do my research and achieve my goals, which was helping people and creating the opportunity for policy makers to create and develop policies that can help these people. But if you create not accurate information for policy makers, their direction and decision making can have negative impacts on people's lives. And we see that in the in everywhere in the US right now and any aspects of our lives. Right? So wrong policies can have more negative impacts on people. So I wanted to know learn more about aging and public health in order to do my research and create more knowledge for policy makers that are more accurate and, the the highest level of accuracy of the knowledge that we were creating. So that was the the main incentive that I went to another graduate school to do my Miles per hour, and my Miles per hour was focused on gerontology, which is about older adults and helping them to have a better quality of life. Right? Understanding what drives the health status and health issues, chronic health diseases in older adults.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:11:09]: And the the the reason I chose gerontology was that during my research, I I learned that people with physical disability, they were experiencing accelerated aging. So, for example, we have 65 years old as the aging margin in our population in the United States. Right? So people over age of 65, they are considered older adults. That's it. Age is just a number, but at the population level, you need to have a a certain margin to categorize people, right, in order to create more policies and more services for them. But in that population with physical limitations and disabilities, they were experiencing older adults' health disorders in much younger ages, like 45 or 50 years old, so they were experiencing aging much sooner than they were expected to. So that was one of the findings of my research. So I I started to study more about aging and older adults, and that was one of the reason I enrolled in that program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you finished that program and then continued on and got a final degree, a PhD, this time in the United States at the University of North Texas. Now you already had a terminal degree. Now it's not a terminal degree in the United States, but it was a terminal degree plus another master's degree. And then you decided to take that research to the next level to be able to get that research degree from the United States. Talk to me about that. Not only moving to a a brand new continent, a new country, but deciding to move from practical work experience in the community, in a clinical setting, into a research based degree and on an academic track and why you chose a PhD?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:13:19]: As you see that, at that point, I was in a transition when I said I was involved in research. I was transitioning from clinical practice to more research, and I was the director of the research section of that medical research center I just mentioned for 10 years. So and, I was doing more research. I learned that there are, again, some areas that I lacked the knowledge, and I cannot take that knowledge in the situation that I was. And those people around me, they were great people. They had wonderful experience, a great amount of knowledge, but at that point, I couldn't grow my knowledge more in that situation. So I started searching and learning more about the programs research programs in other continents in Europe and in the United States, and I was exposed to many of the scholars from many countries when I was attending conferences overseas, like in Turkey, that we call it Turkey now. So they changed the name of the country.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:14:38]: So I was exposed to those scholars. We had some connections and communication after conferences, which is we was, you know, a new phase in my life because that exposure to other scholars in conferences, it expanded my vision and expanded my view into research and also the future of the research studies I wanted to do. So I got involved in those connections with other scholars, and after a while, I learned that I thought that it's time to improve again my research skills and, also get involved in some focus more on research because I was enjoying it. The results of my research, I could see that can impact so many peoples, and it was very different from clinical practice. As I said, it's very valuable to see patients 1 on 1, but with just a research project after 1 year, I could impact thousands of people's lives, and I give you an example. I was working on health needs of people with lack of visual equity and blind people who were injured in Iran Iraq war. They had no voices in the health policy and health care system and in the health care system. They were overlooked for more than 10 years, and they received no health insurance.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:16:21]: They had no health coverages, but the result of my research and my my teams also, it was a team effort, Help them to be visible to policy makers. And after my research, they received comprehensive health insurance coverage for their health needs, not only themselves, but also for their family members. And it passed in the congress after my research was published. And, they started the the people, the injured people, they started to create their own society, and they started to lobby with the policy makers after that. So it was so rewarding to see how my research was helping people. So that was the the another way that I was looking as the result of my work. So because of that, that's just one example. I started thinking, I can go beyond the boundaries of Iran.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:17:29]: I can do something that I can help people around the world, but there were limitations and barriers to that. And coming to the United States, having a degree, not just a degree, but getting exposure to scholars and researchers in the United States with the so many resources that are available here that are were not there in my home country in Iran could give me the opportunity to achieve that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:01]: Now every person that goes into graduate education goes through transitions. You mentioned that in your country, you go right you went from high school into a doctorate degree, a medical degree. You worked for a while and then made a transition back into education to get that master's degree, and then transitioned to a new country, a new type of educational system into a different educational model, a different education degree. Talk to me about the transitions that you went through. What did you have to do as you transitioned into these programs to be able to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of each of those programs?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:18:49]: There are different ways to explain that. From high school and to medical school, I I I think I touched that a little bit. It was it was very challenging situation because, as I said, coming from high school straight to a doctorate program and the the amount of work expectations, the study time, and everything was totally different, and it was very difficult. And as I said, having some supports, like mentors, advisors, and, great professors I had. They helped me to adjust myself. But hard work is the key, and so being passionate about your goal and not giving up and be resilient. So that was the key elements of my success. But in the second time, I was practicing, and I was out of school for more than 12 years.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:19:51]: And after 12 years, I went to back to education, and the whole education system was different at after 10 years. Right? So it it was again a challenge having a balance between always married at the time. I had the kid. My son was a toddler at the time. Spending time at work, finding a specific time to study, it was very challenging working full time, spending enough time with my family, and at the same time doing my study was very, very challenging. So I had to reduce my hobby times or spending my weekends more on studying for my degree and also, again, relying on some of the resources that I had and also some other supports from amazing faculty members who were great mentors during that time. That helped me. After the time difference between my master's and my PhD was about 2 years, it was not a long time.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:20:58]: But coming from another country to the United States, the first thing that was very difficult for me to adjust was the culture shock. So I haven't the experience of living overseas, language barrier, culture barriers, and also the education system here is is totally different from Iran. So their relationship between the faculty and the students, the students student relationships, and student staff relationships. They were so so much different, and it was somehow challenging to adjust myself. But, again, being open to changing myself a little bit, at the same time keeping my values untouched. So I try to keep my values, but at the same time be open to change my vision, to change some of my cultural values, and adjusting myself with the new environment. It took me about 1 year to learn more about American culture, but I was fortunate to have my family next to me. My wife and my son, they supported me a lot.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:22:19]: And coming back home and having that kind of support was crucial for me to survive these challenging situations. So and there are so many things that we can talk, but I don't think the time will allow. But I would be happy to share more of my experience in those situations with your audience. If they are interested to learn more, they can contact me directly if they need some kind of advice or any suggestions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:52]: So I'm kind of interested now because, you know, you have a a degree as a doctor, as a public health specialist, as a doctorate of sociology as a doctorate of sociology. And now you are a faculty member. You're working in health care management, health services administration, working with students in that regard, teaching within those programs. Talk to me about now that you've completed those other degrees and you've moved into this academic portion of your life, your career, how did those past degrees prepare you for the work that you're doing now as a faculty member?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:23:31]: Being in, medical practice and at the same time, as I said briefly, that we established the first clinic in Iran that the first private clinic in Iran treating people with addiction problems, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and some others. I was involved in health care administration. So I was part of the team running the clinic. It was it had, 2 branches and one day care center and one just clinic that visiting patients. So that part helped me to use my daily experience with the health care administration in my current role, helping my student to learn from my experience in the field running a health care entity. So from different perspective, from, patient care, financial management, supply chain management because we're I was responsible for all of those tasks and activities and aspects. Although I didn't have the formal education about that, but I was studying how to run those those clinics. And I learned more in the in the field, so I was doing it.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:24:56]: And when I was in my PhD program, I had some courses about the these tasks and activities. Although my degree is in sociology, the focus was in health services. So in that regard, I'm sharing my experience, my personal experience, along with my study and knowledge and the result of my research in in the classroom with the students. And, there is a link between my practice as as you noticed with my research. So the access to health care services is part of my research right now. It has been part of my research for for many, many years, how people can give access to the need the health services that they need, how the health insurance can facilitate those accessibility and financial barriers, the so so many other barriers, like cultural barriers. And I use that again in my my classroom to teach students how they can evaluate accessibility to health care services when they are practicing as a health care professional, as a health care administrator, or as a public health professional, in the field. So a combination of my professional experience, my research, and also my graduate degree studies, you know, courses into my courses that I'm teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: Now I know that you've had a lot of opportunities to be able to not only have your own experiences in going through graduate school and everything that you learned along the way through those experiences, but you also have worked with a number of graduate students over the years, not only here at the University of Michigan Flint, but also at other institutions in helping them to find success in their graduate school journey. As you think back to your own experiences, to the experiences you've had mentoring other students, and you think of students that are going to graduate school, whether it be in the health care arena or some other area, what are some pieces of advice that you'd want to give to every student considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:27:21]: So follow your passion. Whatever is your passion, follow it and try to find the way that you can link your passion to your graduated studies. If you are doing something that you're you do not love it, you will not be happy. You will not be happy with your life, with your studies. So it's better to find something that you're passionate about and be resilient. So there are so many, many, graduate studies, graduate programs that you can link it to your passion. And when you find it, you need to be resilient. You need to work hard to achieve your goals and never give up.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:28:09]: There are so many situations that we I was thinking, I I cannot go further. I cannot continue this situation. But giving up in the middle of the studies, in the middle of what you are passionate to do, it is not the best thing to think about. It's okay if we get a break for some time, but it's important to go back to what I was doing and connect it, create a bridge between the what I was doing and what I wanted to achieve. So as I said, be consistent. The other thing is do not hesitate to reach for help. So we cannot survive alone. We need support from other people.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:28:57]: It doesn't matter how strong we are or how talented we are. We cannot do anything alone, so we need to communicate with others. I have had, as I said, so many great supports and mentors, peers that they helped me along the way, and I cannot thank them enough. So it's the same for everyone. When you need help, do not hesitate to ask for help from your family members, from your peers, from your faculty members, your advisers. In your, tier of influence, we are available to our students all the time, and sometimes I'm replying to emails during the weekend at night because I think that the student, on the other side, he or she needs help right away. She needs an an he needs an answer right now, and tomorrow might be late to get the answer. Because of my experience, I put myself in their shoes, and I try to support them as much as possible.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:30:09]: So you have the support here because we share the same experience that you are in. We have had the same experience as you are exposed to right now. So we support our students always no matter what. So do not hesitate to ask for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]: Well, Reza, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today through all of the different phases and steps that you went through and for sharing some of the things that were challenging as well as the things that went well along the way. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:30:49]: Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure and honor to be with you and your audience here. I hope my experience helps some people to achieve their goals. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:01]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a significant commitment and a transformative journey, and no one knows this better than Dr. Doug Zytko, an associate professor and Director of the Computing PhD as well as the Computer and Information Systems and Human Centered Design Masters degrees at the University of Michigan Flint. In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, Dr. Zytko shared his experiences and insights, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently undertaking graduate studies. Below, we'll explore some key takeaways from Dr. Zytko's journey and his recommendations for finding success in graduate school.

The Inception: Sparking the Decision to Pursue a PhD

Dr. Zytko's path to graduate school wasn't perfectly planned. While completing his bachelor's degree at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, he found himself drawn to the role of professors—a profession held by both his parents. "To be a professor, I need to have a PhD," he realized, leading him to apply for several PhD programs. Surprisingly, he faced multiple rejections, except from his alma mater, where his passion and notable GPA (3.96) caught the attention of faculty members.

Early Challenges and Realizations

Entering his PhD program, Dr. Zytko initially misunderstood the nature of doctoral studies. He believed his journey would be structured similarly to undergraduate education, relying heavily on others to guide his path. However, PhD programs demand a high degree of self-direction and the creation of new knowledge. "I didn't understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda," he reflected. Only two years in did he fully grasp the intensive, self-driven nature of the program, leading to a prolonged seven-year completion time.

Preparing for Graduate School: Tips for Prospective Students

1. Engage in Undergraduate Research: Dr. Zytko emphasized the importance of involving oneself in research during undergraduate studies. Not just for bolstering a CV, but for gaining a fundamental understanding of research processes.

2. Clear Career Goals: Ensure you have a defined reason for pursuing graduate studies. Avoid treating grad school as a pause button or a vague stepping stone; know why you are there and let all decisions follow from that purpose.

3. Consider the Master's Path: If undergraduate research isn't part of your background, pursuing a master's degree before a PhD might be a more structured approach. This can provide essential research experience and a more tailored understanding of your field.

Finding Success During Graduate Studies

1. Be Comfortable with Discomfort: Graduate studies, particularly PhD programs, require a new level of time management and self-motivation. Don't wait for others to dictate your schedule or goals.

2. No Plan B: Dr. Zytko shared that having no alternative career path kept him focused during challenging times. This level of dedication can be crucial for success.

Drawing from Experience: Reflecting on Dr. Zytko's Advice

Dr. Zytko's journey underscores the need for strategic preparation and genuine passion. From learning research fundamentals early on to maintaining focused drive despite challenges, his advice is rooted in real experience. For anyone considering graduate school, Dr. Zytko's insights are invaluable.

Whether you are contemplating a master's or diving straight into a PhD, understanding the journey ahead can make a substantial difference. Taking the time to gain research experience, having a clear career path, and staying committed to your goals are essential steps towards success in graduate school. And remember, it's not just about getting the degree; it's about growing intellectually and professionally to meet your greatest potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, each week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it really is that. You thinking about graduate school, being in graduate school, wherever you are in this process of getting further education, and you will go through a journey because the experience is going to be different for every person. And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do to be able to find success throughout every stage of this process. It's not always going to be easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: There's going to be some bumps in the road, most likely. But saying that, there are ways in which you can get some tools for your own toolbox, and be able to prepare yourself as well as you can to be able to enter grad school strong, to go through grad school strong, and be able to come out on the end of the process ready to go for the next phase of your life. So every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can talk about what they went through in going to graduate school themselves, and the experience that they've had since then that can help you on the journey that you're on as well. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Doug Zitko is with us, and Doug is an associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint, but he's also the director of graduate programs for the College of Innovation and Technology, as well as working specifically with our computer science program and our human centered design master's degree program. So Doug has a lot of different experiences that have brought him to the place that he is today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doug, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:11]: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: So one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. And as you were going through and getting that bachelor's degree in information technology, at some point, at some point, you got that spark. You got that push. And you decided for yourself to go from the bachelor's degree and stepping further into getting a PhD in human computer interaction. Not every student's gonna do that. So I wanna go back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself. I wanna go to that next step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]: What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:56]: Well, it wasn't a terribly thought out process. I was starting my senior year with my bachelor's degree, and I was thinking about what am I gonna do when this year is over. And no one is telling me, you need to register for these courses and do this and be at this room at that time. And I really didn't have an answer. What I concluded was that I wasn't terribly passionate about the career choices that I was learning about in my major, which was information technology. The thing that excited me the most, which I didn't expect, was the role of professor itself. You know, learning from professors in my classes who were very passionate about the material and clearly seemed to really enjoy the job, others that didn't seem to enjoy that much. And I thought, I think I might enjoy that because my family is teachers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:03:49]: My dad was a teacher and a department chair, and my mom was a teacher as well. And I thought, well, maybe I can do this at the college level. And all I knew at that point was, okay. To be a professor, I need to have a PhD. And I started submitting applications with that being the extent of my understanding. And so not surprisingly, I got rejected by every school I applied to, except for one, which was New Jersey Institute of Technology, where I was also doing my bachelor's. Because one thing I was able to do there that I was not able to do as easily with other schools is I could just pick the brains of my professors. And so I just started to talk to them 1 by 1, voicing my interest in getting a PhD.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:04:34]: I got very different reactions to that from faculty. Some that were telling me to do anything but that, others that were very enthusiastic, some that were giving me highly detailed advice. But I talked to enough people that those in decision making roles came to learn that I was interested in a PhD. My GPA was really good at a 3.96 GPA as an undergrad. And I was fortunate enough to have a professor buy in quite literally to bringing me on directly from bachelor's into the PhD program and administrative personnel being on board with that as well. Chris, I'm sure you know, but maybe your listeners don't. You know, one of the biggest differences between PhD programs and and master's programs is PhDs are almost always fully funded positions. I've now come to learn it's quite rare for a bachelor student to go directly into PhD with that full funding commitment without ever having done research.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:05:30]: I didn't even know what the word research meant. And things like the difference between qualitative and quantitative research, I've never even heard those terms. And so I was being admitted into into a PhD program really, just on genuine passion for a very clearly articulated career goal. I wanted to be a professor, whatever that meant, and strength of GPA. So then I start my PhD. And I'll skip ahead to the end first so everything else makes sense. It took me 7 years to finish my PhD, which is quite a bit longer. I think the national average is between 4 5 years.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:00]: Yeah. So those 2 extra years came really at the start, not at the end. Because those first two years were mostly just me running around with my head on fire, trying to figure out not just how to succeed at a PhD, but learning what a PhD actually is. Like, when I was saying I didn't even know what the word research meant, I didn't understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda and conduct and complete that for a dissertation. I knew these words, dissertation. I knew these words, research, but I didn't know what they meant. And so just to give an example, when I was admitted into the program, they said, we're gonna guarantee your funding for 4 years, which I interpreted as, oh, great. A PhD is only gonna take 4 years, because I was operating with that certainty and structure of a bachelor's program and a master's program where I just take these classes.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:48]: And then once I finish those, I'm imagining gonna have a PhD, meaning I assumed other people took responsibility for the structuring and ensuring that I was hitting certain milestones at a certain time. And I remember in my 1st year as a PhD student, it was amazing because I knew just enough to learn that I was learning a lot, but I didn't know yet all of the things I should have been doing in my 1st year into my 2nd year to make sure I finished by year 5. And so the end of year year 1, I remember thinking to myself, I've learned more in this 1 year than I have in 4 years as a bachelor student, and I and I still believe that to be true today. I was learning so much because I finally knew exactly why I was there. I mean, Chris, you know, like, PhD students, they still have to take some classes, and those are mostly front loaded in the 1st couple years. And so I was still in that mindset of taking classes. But the difference between me at the PhD level and undergraduate level was I wanna be a professor. Whereas when I was an an undergraduate, it was I'm taking these classes because I'm vaguely interested in computers, and people tell me I'm good with computers, but I still really didn't know what career I was working towards and how each class fit into that.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:05]: So when I was taking my introductory classes in the PhD program, it was, oh, very clearly, I understand what I'm taking from this and what I'm taking from that. I finally started to see classes as these really valuable knowledge bases. And so I came out of that year. I I really felt like I doubled my intellect between bachelor's and that one year in the in the PhD program. And then I start my 2nd year. And then as I go into my 3rd year, it starts to dawn on me the obligations that are on me. Not on anybody else, but on me to articulate our research agenda, and I didn't know where to begin. I could read papers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:42]: I could summarize papers. I could review papers. But in terms of articulating a research agenda, help somebody help me because I'm so used to professors in classes. You know, they assign to you projects. They give you exams. The student reacts. This is the task. I will complete it.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:09:00]: But then in the PhD program, it's, no. You need to articulate that. You need to put together the, quote, unquote, exam. And it took me a while to figure out the biggest difference between PhD and masters and undergraduate is with those first two degrees, the undergraduate and the masters, you are mastering existing knowledge. You are demonstrating, I understand the knowledge has already been created. But when you do a PhD, the sign of a completed PhD is you have created new knowledge. And that's a completely different skill set that took me probably at least 2 years just to figure out how to do it and then came the execution, which is why it took me 7 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: So as you look back at that, because you did things, like you said, in a way that was probably a little bit longer than others, and it sounds like there was some maybe some lacking mentorship that might have been there that could have helped you along the way. But as you look back and you look at what you learned in those first two years as you were going into that 3rd year and realizing, oh, I'm behind, what would you have done differently in that 1st year in a PhD program as you were transitioning in and through to move you to the 2nd year and get you on that path toward the end goal instead of being 3 years in and still being a little bit lost.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:10:28]: Yeah. I think there's things I should've done when I was still an undergraduate when preparing to apply to PhD programs, and then I can talk also about things I should've done in the 1st year of my PhD. Because looking back, those first two years of my PhD really should have been my master's years. And instead, they were in in the PhD years. And some of your listeners might go, oh, no. I got the better end of the deal because PhD is fully funded. So I basically got a master's fully funded. I don't have a master's, but that was just you could argue that's essentially what I was doing.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:01]: But I would say, no. That's not the smart play. Because as soon as you enter a PhD program officially, you're on this clock where you have to have certain milestones then at a certain time. And so I was basically being an informal master's student while also PhD, but on a PhD student clock, which caused a lot of anxiety later on where I am now a year plus behind on certain milestones with my dissertation proposal and, of course, dissertation defense. And so I would not recommend that. What I should have been doing in my senior year as an undergraduate student or maybe even earlier, because I now see this even in my own research lab now, is getting involved with research as an undergraduate student. And because I didn't realize that was a thing that professors really encouraged. And looking back in in my 6 plus years as a professor now, my absolute best student researchers were undergraduate students, and bar none.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:56]: It's not even close. And I should have been doing that, not just to start to build up a CV of a publication record, but just to get an understanding of what does it mean to do research, and what are the the expectations? What's the skills that I have to develop? Because that would have armed me with much better knowledge of how to craft materials for applying to different schools, but also in choosing which schools to apply to. And it would have enabled me to go into a PhD program already understanding the area I wanted to do a PhD. And maybe not the exact dissertation plan was set up, but an understanding of, I'm gonna be an expert in this subfield or this subarea so that immediately I can start mastering the literature of that particular area. Because what I spent the first two years on my PhD was just understanding what part of human computer interaction do I even wanna do research in, and then what does that research even look like?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:53]: All good points. And, you know, one of the things that I learned when I was going through my own doctorate was that the more that you can use the classes that you are taking to inform the research that you're going to be doing. And if your program allows it, to allow for you to be able to start to do some of the lit review, some of the writing, some of the chapter writing as you're going through other courses that may relate to the topic at hand, definitely can save you time. But I say, if your program allows it, because not every program will allow you to do that. So it's always important to know and to understand what the rules are for the program that you're in. One of the things that I I think that I would ask you now, as you look back, and you've kinda talked about the fact that you would have done research ahead of time. You now are the director of a PhD program in computing, and you are getting applications from individuals that are applying to the program. You get some that are that potentially do have a bachelor's degree but no master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: You have others that have master's degree or master's degree plus experiences. In your opinion right now, if a student is getting a bachelor's degree, is it to their benefit to look to a PhD right away if that's where they see themselves in the future? Or is it better for them to do the route of the masters, getting getting more experience, and then going to the PhD?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:14:27]: Yeah. That's a that's a complicated question, and I think the answer has evolved over time. Sort of from what I've seen, not just in my own role, but from speaking to those in similar roles at other universities, is the standard of quality for an admitted PhD student has gone up dramatically. And with that, also expectations for quality of a of a completed PhD. I I've talked to some that are very esteemed senior members of the field, and they'll tell us what they completed for their dissertation wouldn't even be a third of what's expected of a PhD now. So the expectations are continually rising, not just for completing the PhD, but for admission into a program. To be honest, someone that has a bachelor's and is considering a PhD, I would probably not advise doing that unless the student already has a publication record, meaning some kind of evidence to a PhD program that I can do research successfully. Because something that I tell our prospective applicants is, you know, when you hear a PhD program is is fully funded, they see that as sometimes free money.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:15:45]: But what it really means is there is an obligation of the student to deliver on that investment. Because that's what it is. It's an investment. And so when you hear a program is fully funded like ours, what it often means is faculty are committing finite resources that they've worked very hard for through writing external grants and whatnot, And they're investing those resources into a relatively unknown student with their fingers crossed that that student's gonna deliver on high quality publications that allows that faculty member to apply for more grants and to get tenure and all these other things. And so a student at the bachelor's level, that immediately looks like risk. Because compared to a master's student, there's just less of a timeline for that student to have performed research to demonstrate I can conduct research at the highest level. And so the advice that I would give to the typical bachelor students let's say a a bachelor student who knows enough to say, I wanna get a PhD in human computer interaction, for example. But they're not able to articulate specific research questions that they wanna dedicate yours to studying or they might not even be aware of what the top publication venues are in their field.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:16:59]: I would recommend pursuing a master's, but looking into funding options at the master's level. So, for example, like, here at Flint, and I did this at my previous institution, sometimes it will identify high performing undergraduates. They've indicated somewhat of an interest in doing research, but they don't know much about what that is. And there is often some funding lines, not nearly as extensive as PhDs, but some schools have funding opportunities, whether it's, RA positions, whether it's smaller scholarships to at least partially fund a master's degree for a high performing undergraduate student. Or, for example, if your school like ours offers a BSMS program So you can start taking master's programs at the bachelor's level, and then that way you get on the radar of some faculty members. Because from a I tell you from a faculty member's perspective, one of the biggest challenges we have is picking the right students. And so if we're able to observe a student in class or maybe they've been informally coming to our research meetings and exhibiting interest, and they've done some small roles maybe in an unpaid capacity because they just wanna not so much contribute to research, but just to understand what a professor's working on. Right? Like, I've had students that, I've read some of your papers, or can you give me some some recommendations of papers I could read? I'm more likely to commit to a student than, let's say, at the bachelor's level because I relative to an unknown student with a master's because I was able to observe them for a much longer period of time, and I'm more confident about their capabilities at the PhD level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]: Those are great points, and I think definitely things that people can think about, whether it's for a PhD in computing to a PhD in some other area. What you just heard from Doug is really important, is that if you're currently in your undergraduate experience, you should be working on undergraduate research at the same time and finding ways to be able to do that research. And if you haven't done that yet, going into a PhD may be very challenging. And getting into a PhD program may be a similar experience as what Doug experienced in getting those rejection letters, which are not always fun to get. Because I know that I've seen some rejection letters in my past, and it's never fun to get those. But especially if there's other ways for you to be able to still get to that final goal, that final point where you want to be, but in a roundabout way, that may be the better way to go. So that being said, listen to what you you just heard there, and really think hard about the decision that you're making. Because it's not all about funding, it's also about what's best for you and being successful in the experience that you're gonna be going through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]: Now talking about success, as you look at the experience that you went through, and you talked about some of the things that you learned in that 1st year, and 2nd year, and the 3rd year. But each of us, as we go from one degree to the next, we end up going through transitions. You went through your transitions in going from undergrad into your graduate school program. I went through my own. As you look at the transitions that you went through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout that PhD experience for yourself?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:20:23]: Really good question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. But just thinking through, like, when I started a PhD to when I ended, some of the intangibles that really helped me get there, I think there were 2 big ones that come to mind that I didn't necessarily possess when I was leaving my bachelor's. One was being comfortable with discomfort. So when I ended my bachelor's degree, I think like most bachelor student, we became very accustomed to structure, particularly structure that's imposed by others. Like, I was saying before with, like, you have to go to this classroom at this time. These are the exams. This is homework.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:01]: This is when the homework is due. And we we become so trained to allow someone else to dictate our pace of work, what quality looks like, that when I started in the PhD program, especially in my 1st semester, I'd wake up. I look at my calendar. Oh, I only have one class today, so I only have to work for that 2 hours today. I didn't understand all the rest of that time in the days for me to figure out how to utilize, because I was still in that mindset of other people will tell me how to use my time, which is not the case. And so that was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn, and it kinda manifested later in my PhD of me working 7 days a week for at least a few years in a row because I I needed to do that catch up. It wasn't overworking. It was me delaying the work that I should have been doing in those days in my 1st couple years into into later.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:53]: So that was the the first big skill lesson was some people use the term time management for that. I think that term gets misunderstood. I think it's that self directed nature of I'm not waiting for someone else to tell me what to do. And if no one tells me what to do, it doesn't mean I have nothing to do. So that was a hard lesson to learn. The other lesson was having no plan b, which sounds really risky. But, Chris, you probably know the the national averages on this better than I do. But the last that I've read, the nationally speaking, there's a 40 to 60% attrition rate in PhD programs.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:22:29]: And in my own program, in my cohort for the year that I went to the program, we had a 50% attrition rate. And I probably would have been on the other side of it if I had some other potential career option that I would have been okay with. Because in those 7 years, there's more time than not where I had family members asking me, why are you doing this? You're working all the time. Is this and you're getting paid what? Because, Chris, you know, but maybe your listeners don't. When when we hear that PhD programs are fully funded, you're not necessarily getting a a funding that's commensurate to a job you would have gotten in industry. You you're getting paid a not glamorous amount of money to pay the essentials while you're doing your PhD. And there is multiple times, family members, close friends going, this is crazy. Why don't you just go get a normal job that pays you? I'll be honest.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:23:32]: My stipend at the time was $20,000 a year. This is in the New Jersey, New York area, and so that doesn't go very far. And when you do that for 7 years, you start to get the questions more and more each year. Is this worth it? And in my mind, there was no plan b. I had to become a professor. And so in those really, really hard times when I saw students, not necessarily just failing out of the program, but voluntarily leaving, I pushed through because in my head and my heart, I was just convicted to this is what I will do. And there was days where that was the only thing that was getting me into the next day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:10]: Now I know you work with a lot of grad students now. And as you think back to your own experience, as you think back to the experiences you've had at the institutions that you've worked with in your career, leading you to where you're at today here at the University of Michigan, Flint, what are some pieces of advice that you would offer to every graduate student, no matter if they were going into a technological graduate degree, a PhD, a master's degree? It doesn't matter. What would you say to them as they were looking at ways to find success sooner?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:24:43]: Yeah. I think one of the main things that I tell to prospective applicants, not just at the PhD level, probably more so at the master's level, is to have a really clear understanding of why you wanna do that graduate degree. So especially at the master's level, I've come to learn that a lot of students finishing their undergraduate degrees that are considering a master's level, they're doing it for what I would consider really bad reasons. Some of them look at it like a glorified pause button. It's the, I don't know what I wanna do with my life, so let me spend 2 years in a master's program, and maybe the answer will magically come to my mind, which rarely does. The other is, well, I've been too late to applying for jobs. So let me go to a master's program to just give me more time to apply. That's a very expensive decision.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:25:33]: And then another, and this is the one that concerns me the most, is students believing a graduate degree in anything from anywhere on any topic will magically give me a great job that makes me feel satisfied in life. And we see this at the bachelor's level too where students graduating, and they go, I can't find a job. And you ask them, what job have you been preparing yourself for? And they can't answer. You're gonna see the same problem at at the master's level as well. And so my main piece of advice is first, have a very clear understanding of why you wanna get a graduate degree. And then 2, all of your decisions should follow from that why. So for example, if you wanna get a a graduate degree because you wanna be a user experience designer for a health care company. I mean, let's just say it's a scratch.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:26:28]: Because I've heard this from from students. Well, then when I say all of your decisions should follow from that, it's, okay, what schools not just necessarily have the best program that teach user experience design, but which ones offer collaborations with health care or which ones have collaborations with nursing departments? And those aren't always the number one school in the country for information systems or human computer interaction. You're looking for the best program for you and your particular goals. So those are my two pieces of advice. Just have a very clear understanding of why you wanna do a graduate degree and then have all of your subsequent decisions follow from that why.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: Well, Doug, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this journey that you have shared and all of the advice that you have shared today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:27:14]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a unique and deeply transformative journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis outlines in this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, every student travels their own path toward advanced degrees, facing distinct challenges and triumphs along the way. This episode features Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer, an Associate Professor and Director of the Masters in Software Engineering program at the University of Michigan Flint's College of Innovation and Technology, who shares his insightful experiences and suggestions for finding success in graduate school.

Finding Your True Passion The Decision to Pursue a Master's Degree

When Dr. Mkaouer completed his bachelor's degree at the Universite de Tunis, he was at a crossroads. Instead of jumping straight into the professional world, he chose to pursue a master's degree. As he reflects, finding a career that you genuinely enjoy is crucial. At that point, he didn't know exactly what he wanted to do, so he decided to continue his education to gather more experience and skills, which would later guide him in making more informed career choices.

Emphasizing Research and Continuous Learning

A recurring theme in Dr. Mkaouer's journey was his interest in research. As he transitioned from his master's to his PhD, he found a passion for research, particularly in software engineering. His thirst for knowledge and his desire to solve complex problems led him to further his education in the United States, where he continued his studies at the Missouri University of Science and Technology and later, the University of Michigan Dearborn. For students contemplating this path, Dr. Mkaouer insists on the importance of diving deep into research areas that ignite your curiosity and passion.

Charting a Course in PhD Studies The Role of Mentorship

One of the significant points Dr. Mkaouer discusses is the importance of a solid mentor-mentee relationship during PhD studies. When his advisor moved to another institution, Dr. Mkaouer chose to follow. He stresses that an academic advisor's vision should align with your own, serving as a consistent support system throughout the demanding PhD journey.

Navigating Obstacles

PhD studies are ripe with challenges—from rigorous academic requirements to unexpected changes, like a mentor leaving. Dr. Mkaouer advises students to be adaptable and remain focused on their long-term goals. He also emphasizes the significance of building a robust support network of like-minded peers who can provide both technical and emotional support.

Preparing for Professional Success Beyond Grades: Developing Skills

Dr. Mkaouer emphasizes that the goal of a graduate degree is not simply to get good grades but to develop a unique skill set that separates you from others in a competitive job market. He recalls his struggles and eventual success with mastering algorithms, a crucial skill for his career. His consistent effort and extra work beyond the standard curriculum were what truly set him apart.

Utilizing Resources and Mentorship

Graduate programs offer numerous resources and mentorship opportunities, which students should fully utilize. Dr. Mkaouer mentions that many students are unaware of the extensive support available to them. He advises attending seminars, engaging with faculty, and seeking out additional learning materials to supplement formal coursework.

Dr. Mkaouer's experiences illustrate that the journey through graduate school is multifaceted—marked by continuous learning, adaptability, and a relentless pursuit of passion. By finding your true interests, leveraging mentorship, and developing unique skills, you can navigate the complexities of graduate education and set yourself up for a successful professional career. If you're considering this path, remember that each step, no matter how challenging, is a building block toward your dreams.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because you are on a journey toward graduate school right now. You could be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about what is graduate school and do I really wanna do this and what type of program am I interested in? Or you could be at a point where you've already applied and now you're starting to figure out, did you get accepted? If you got accepted, what programs did you get accepted to and where might you want to attend? Or maybe you're in a program and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're starting to plan for your future beyond graduate school, no matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do along the way that will help you to find success. And you can find that success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: So every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own journey. Not only their journey through their education, but their journey through their profession that they can then reflect back on to provide you with some some tips, some tools that you can add to your own toolbox and help you to be successful in the end. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Mohamed Mkaouer is with us today. And doctor Makaur is a associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Innovation and Technology, and I am really excited to be able to talk to him about his own journey coming to the United States after getting his bachelor's and master's from the Universite de Tunis to going to the to the universe the Missouri University of Science and Technology and then to the University of Michigan Dearborn to get his PhD in computer software engineering. So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and learn more from him today and allow for you to learn from him as well. Mohamed, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:02:24]: Of course. It's my pleasure, Christopher. So when I heard about your podcast and I heard that this is an opportunity for me to really help students, of course, me being a professor working with students every day and also being a director of software engineering and artificial intelligence here at Intelligence here at the University of Michigan Flint, I cannot miss an opportunity for me to help students with any means possible, including understanding what they expect, what they can see, maybe hopefully inspire them, hopefully answer some of their questions, things that they may not realize. They're important, but they are. And me sharing my experience as a student, then perhaps a faculty or a profession, and how and how my experience as a, you know, my grad student studies have shaped my profession right now. I think it's something that I wanna share with everyone. And hopefully, it will be helping helpful to anyone who's listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]: So one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate and master's degree work at the Universite de Tunis. And at some point during that undergraduate degree, you decided to continue on into the master's. So can you bring me that back initially to that point? What made you decide initially that you wanted to continue on after the bachelor's in your home country at your university to continue on for the that additional 2 years to get that master's degree?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:03:40]: Well, the answer is going to be interesting because it will lead me to my first maybe tip, right? Which is perhaps I'll start with that is, you really need to find something that you truly enjoy. Okay? That's, I think, my number one, if not 0, advice that I would give to anyone is to really understand what is your vision, what do you dream about. Because all of us, we have something we dream about, Whether and it's a dream because you don't even consciously do it. It's just a dream that comes to you, and then you start developing that in the back of your mind, and then you decide that you wanna do this. So we all have things we dream about, and one of the things I would truly advise is for you to find that vision, that dream job, that career that you wanna build. Figure that out first, and build then a path towards that career. And maybe to answer your question now, Christopher, the reason why I moved from bachelor's to master's is because I did not know back then what exactly I wanted to do. So I was somehow postponing that decision and maybe gathering more experience and more skills and more knowledge that can maybe help me, you know, shape that direction.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:43]: So so back then, I was also a major. I was I had, like, a full GPA, honors student, so I was really doing great in school. So I was able to get a lot of job offers from industry, which I joined industry back then, but I was not fully convinced that this is what I picture myself doing from the rest of my career. So I decided to also do grad school to keep that to buy myself some time and try to see whether this new experience will help me figure out what I wanted to do next. Right? And obviously, that did not also work out because I decided to go for a PhD. Right? And during that time, what also made me decide to do PhD is because I realized that I'm really enjoying doing this. Because as you know, when you move to a grad school, you have you add that component of research, which I found really to be very interesting. So I decided to do maybe to do more of that and buy myself actually more time to know what I wanna do next.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:05:30]: And that's what brought me to the US, you know, to to continue my PhD studies and started in Missouri, like you mentioned. And then I moved to University of Michigan Dearborn, which was an extraordinary experience, you know, being in the system, and that's why I'm back here. So, yeah, during also that time, I realized that I'm really enjoying research, and I realized that this is something I wanna do for the rest of my career because after taking more steps towards it, I realized this is exactly what I want to do next, and I started developing the skill set for it. And even during that time, you would still not necessarily figure out all the different details. For instance, I was wondering whether I should do a research career in academia or industry, which is a typical question that a lot of students also get at their grad school. Am I fit for research? Should I go for academia or industry? And maybe my next advice is to try a little bit of both. It wouldn't hurt for you to try to test the waters. So you can try a little bit of both and see where you really see yourself fitting.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:22]: So what I did back then is I I started teaching courses at University of Michigan Dearborn while I'm still a student. You know, like, you know, so you can also as a student, you can also apply for greater opportunities. You know, try to see how the academic life looks like. Right? Try to be in the classroom, you know, so you can be a a teaching assistant, etcetera. So I started doing a little bit of that to have to see how that looks like and whether I enjoy doing that. Also, during the summer, I started to go for internships. I did some internships here in Detroit, down in Detroit, to see whether also I see myself feeling better in industry. And after spending some time in both, being a teaching assistant at the University of Michigan Dearborn and also doing some internships throughout the way, I realized that I enjoy really investing on people.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:07:04]: That was my real passion, and I realized that I'm going to continue for academia because this is what I saw myself being really happy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]: So I wanna go back to that jump from being in Tunisia to coming to the United States. And as you made that decision to continue your education, as you mentioned, to get the PhD, as many students do, as they're identifying that next opportunity, they have to do some research. They have to figure out for themselves, what am I looking for? What type of program? What's the best fit? So you ended up initially going to Missouri University of Science and Technology for a doctorate of philosophy in computer software engineering. Talk to me about bring me back to that point where you had that inkling that you wanted to go further and that research then that you went through to be able to identify that program as the right program. Now I know that that's not where you ended your degree. But what made you initially choose not only to go to Missouri University of Science and Technology, but also to choose the PhD in computer software engineering versus some other area?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:15]: Well, it that decision first of all, I wanna give it since you you brought that back in that time, I was always looking for a major that that would strengthen my skills in different domains. This is how I thought I should be doing. So if you look at my first bachelor, I was specialized in what we called the e learning back then. It was computer science, but I was specialized in e learning. Then I wanted to try something slightly different or entirely different, so I did master's with distributed systems. So my thesis was around distributed systems and cloud computing. And then I realized that through my experience and industrial experience back then too, that what I really truly enjoy or triggered my curiosity in research was something with software. And that's how I get to know software engineering, and that's how I get to start looking for people who can give me more insights about how their that research is going to, to be looking like.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:05]: And that's when I met my academic adviser, and that's how I was able to see that the research in software engineering in particular has a lot of impact into industry. It actually helps developers be more productive. It helps the whole life cycle of software become more efficient, which will save us 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars combating errors and anomalies and vulnerabilities that we are living in right now in our infrastructure. Because obviously, that is actually, one of the biggest expenses we have in our economy is actually bugs, software bugs. It's still happening as we speak. Over $3,000,000,000 a year. That's an astronomical number. That's a big number.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:42]: So I realize that me helping people through that is something I'm interested in. So showing the impact of that research on people's lives is what made me realize that this is what I want to do for the rest of of my career. And I'm happy to see that to say that I'm doing this in multiple dimensions. 1 is research. You know, when I work in ways to improve the soft the qualities of the software. That's me helping a lot of companies such as Xerox, Microsoft right now, JetBrains Research, helping them build better frameworks for millions of people. That's through my research. Also through my teaching here at the University of Michigan Flint, I'm teaching right now as we speak a course called Software Testing and Quality Assurance.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:10:25]: So I was able to exercise my research into the classroom and help students write better code and learn how to test their own code, which hopefully will reduce and minimize the number of errors once they once they graduate and go to industry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:38]: Now I know that sometimes when you go into a graduate program, it's smooth sailing, not many bumps in the road. Other times, things can happen, and you have to go with the flow. And you have to do some pivoting and some kind of go around the a curve that you might not have expected. And I'm gonna venture, I guess, to say that going from one institution to the next was probably not in your mind when you first went in, but that there was a little bit of a pivot there. And sometimes that happens at a PhD level, that you have a specific individual that you're working with, a faculty member that you're working with, and that person leaves, but they're still your mentor, you're the person that you're working with on your research. So we've never really talked about this on the show, but can you talk a little bit about that journey for you, going from one institution to a next as a PhD student? Because for some PhD students, this will happen, and it could derail their process if they're not aware of it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:42]: That is correct. So this is going to be now specifically to PhD students. Right? So I think a lot of situations where you'll because a PhD study is typically, you know, a study would just go between 4 to 6 years long, so there is always a chance of you being mentored by a supervisor who might leave the institution. Because of how long that program is, there is a stronger chance or a stronger probability that you will end up having the situation compared to, for example, a master's student. Right? So for PhD students, yes, there is a chance, there is always a chance that your supervisor or your academic advisor or thesis advisor, depending on how you call it, will actually leave the institute. And now you have the choice somehow to either stay in your institute and find another advisor, which probably means you have to switch your research altogether to something different, or you got the chance to move with your advisor and continue that line of research. So to me, it was the situation, and it was also happening right when I started. So it was in the end of 1st year.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:12:39]: So I wasn't really too much committed into my research back then, like in terms of, for example, publications, etcetera, which made the situation easy for me to make a decision whether to stay or to move. Right? But of course, because I was so convinced into the research I'm doing, I was so into it, and I was also in very good terms with my advisor, which I believe this is a key to success. When you are looking for a PhD opportunity, get comfortable with your PhD advisor because that relationship is stronger than just a master advisor for instance, which is a short term relationship. But for a PhD, it's the apprentice. This is what they call, you know, the apprentice model. So you need to really be in the same page, the same vision of your adviser so that you can actually flourish together. And that's exactly the reason why I decided to move my adviser. And I told him back then when when he proposed it, do you wanna move me? I said, I will go with the moon with you if you're moving.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:27]: I don't care where you go. I'm just gonna be with you as long as we keep this research vision. And that's because I was able to achieve my first tip, which is knowing exactly what I want. You know? So that's when now you know how to do it and how you can navigate the different obstacles that you will get throughout the way. Because a PhD journey in particular has a lot of bumps. This is how it is. You know? My father always says, if you're doing something that tends to be easy, maybe you're doing the wrong thing. So so PhD was totally worth it, but it's also it was a difficult journey because of how, you know, elitist it is in in by nature.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:01]: Right? You are competing with people who are really world class researchers, People who are, you know, they develop and devote their life and their career for the greater good. So you are competing with this level of excellent researchers. So to be one of them, it requires a lot of sacrifice, a lot of commitment, and a lot of devotion and love and passion for what you do, plus sacrifice as well, obviously. So that's the shape of a PhD, which I would totally do again. For me it was enjoyable because I knew exactly what I was doing. And part of it is also to surround yourself with people who share your same vision. That's very important, very critical for whatever you do, whether you are a master or PhD. You have a goal, you have a vision.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:41]: Make sure you're surrounded with people that would help you flourish because they can help you. They can be your counselors. They can be your therapists at some point. They can be supporting you technically and emotionally and socially. And also, they will be your future network once you graduate. A lot of the students that share my same vision with me and I skipped relationship with them, now they are my colleagues in different institutes. We collaborate with them, we collaborate together, we write papers together. A lot of others are now in industry, in Amazon, other places.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:15:09]: So we also have that professional connection together. We share some students, we send I send them some students to go for internship with them. So that's also your future network because you have a similar vision. So most likely, you'll stay connected together throughout your whole career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]: Now you went through your bachelor's, your master's, your PhD. You found success. You graduated, you got those degrees, you moved into your professional career and continued on in your professional career. And in each of those transitions from bachelor's to master's, from master's to doctorate, you go through transitions. And at every level, there are different expectations. There are different ways in which you're being educated, and you have to come to a better understanding of that as a student to be able to understand what is expected of you and the not only in the institutional context, but institutional context, but in the programmatic context of the program that you're in. So as you think back to your own education and also the transitions that you see in students that you work with on a daily basis, Think back to first let's first start with focus well, actually, as you think back to your own education and you think back to the transitions that you had personally, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you entered into a program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate degrees?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:16:35]: Excellent question. So my number one advice as potentially a former student and now a director is that each program we are here to support you to succeed. So you need really to know what each program is offering and use all the resources you can get to make that success happen. Because each program, at least here in Flint for instance, we have a lot of support for our students and our students I feel like sometimes they don't even know these resources, they exist. So make sure to attend all the different seminars we have. Listen to what your advisors say. Listen to the faculty. Ask questions whenever you can.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:13]: And then start planning your success accordingly. Because why? Because you can. Like for instance, I'll give myself an example. So I realized that for me, for instance, to be successful in the kind of things I'm doing, which is, for instance, you know, developing algorithms, I had to be really good at algorithms. I knew this is something that was critical to me to succeed in what I want to do. And success, at least in my case, was not just to get a good degree or a good grade. It's actually to be able to solve concrete problems that are so laser focused that not a typical resource can help you do that. So I had to really develop skills across multiple books, and that's what I did.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:51]: I started reading a lot of books and algorithms, solving a lot of problems in in a lot of algorithmic references in which that a typical student may not need to do necessarily. But for me, I knew this is going to be helping me for the kind of problems I want to solve in the future. So I tried developing my own career or kind of, skills. Right? And, and that was not an easy thing to do, by the way. I'm just saying this, it sounds easy, but it's not. It took me, for instance, the first book that I was working, I was using as a reference was called, Interactions to Algorithms. It's a phenomenal book, not easy to read. It's an MIT book, I think.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:18:24]: So I started working on that book and I think the first chapter, it took me almost a month to even navigate the first chapter of that book. It was something new to me, so I had to develop that skill set. And but after that, I started realizing that it's getting easier and easier for me to just do that. So consistency is very important. And then by the end of these 2 semesters, I think I was able to solve the whole book. And when I did that, I felt like I can fly to the moon now. And I was able to develop that kind of skills that I saw helping me become a better developer and also a better thinker and problem solver. So, yes, if you are a master's student right now listening to this and you are in a submajor, there are references that you know that if you read them carefully, you'll be able to become a better person in the future.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:19:06]: So why not doing it and planning it now? You can actually do it. So, yeah, that's for me at least one way for me to plan for for that. And and, of course, it may not be easy, so please use your faculty, your mentors as resources and seek for advice because they'll be more than happy to help you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:22]: All great advice. I really appreciate you sharing that. Now you work with a lot of students as well, and you see them as they enter the program, as they go through the program, and you had your own experiences as a graduate student yourself, and you've been giving a lot of piece of advice today. And I guess as we look at finishing up today and thinking about success in general, as you look back to not only your own graduate education, but also as you think about other students, students that you work with or just graduate students in general, what are some tips that you want to offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:01]: Yes. So I think the difference between and I see this as my personal opinion. The difference between undergrad degree and a grad degree is that undergrad degree, you are really looking for a degree to get to set you up for for a job. But the grad degree is setting you up for what you want to do next with your career. So that should be your mindset, which means that if you are taking classes at the graduate level, you aren't taking classes to get to get a to get an A on A plus You're getting classes to develop a skill set that would make you unique in the market and also unique in a way to develop your own path in the market. And this market is extremely competitive. That's that's the truth of it. Right? And maybe you being a grader student because you you you already realize that.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:40]: That's why you are do taking a message because you don't wanna tackle that level. So that's why grades should not be your goal. It should be a consequence of your excellence towards building that path. That's my number one advice is that so don't stick to what the course is telling you to do. That should be your minimum effort, not the maximum effort. That's my number one also advice to students who are taking classes right now. Whatever expectations or course workload that the faculty is giving you, that should be your minimum bar, because that's for everyone. But what makes you different from them is the extra step that you will take to be better than everyone else if you really want to be excellent.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:19]: And that's the excellence that I want to see my students doing. And a lot of students actually have gone through that and were able to get into their dream job. I can bring a lot of examples, but students who really came to me, I have I will just give one example. My PhD student. My first PhD student, I was interviewing him for PhD, and I told him, what do I do in your career? He said, I want to be a senior developer at Microsoft. I said, that's it. This is my goal. I will just do it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:42]: And then I'm like, alright. Let's let's see that. And to me, you know, back then, for someone who is barely starting their masters to have that kind of high expectations, I'm like, okay. I appreciate that kind of thing, and I really hope they can do that. And I've seen them developing the right skill set for that. I've seen them spending a lot of time, compared to the other students, training and developing because the kind of position they wanna go to is requires a lot of programming. So they were doing extra programming. They were emailing me constantly.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:08]: Professor, give me more. And I'm like, have you done your homework already? He said, yeah, of course. And you just need more. So it was more demanded than others, and I was obviously helping that student, giving them more assignments that I think can help them. And indeed, they developed a kind of skill set that helped them get into that dream job, and now they are actually, successfully developed by Microsoft. And I, by the way, I brought them here on campus in Flint. They gave a lecture. They gave advice to prospective students.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:33]: So if you are listening to me right now and you have that kind of dream job, please contact me. I can hook you up, and they can talk to you about how you can do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]: Well, Mohamed, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all this advice today, for sharing some of your own experiences, but also your experiences as a faculty member to help other students as they're thinking about their own graduate school journey. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:55]: Thank you so much, Christopher. And I and I hope that I was able to help. And please, I'm sure they can find my email online. So So my name is, again, Mohamed Wianne Macower. My email is [email protected]. You can also Google me as director of AI and software engineering. If you have any questions about these programs, I'll be more than happy to help you. If you have any questions about anything about graduate studies, I'll be more than happy to share with you my advice, and let's keep in touch.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:21]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:22]: Ways that you might be able to fill the gaps in on your resume.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:25]: Great tips. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Ariana. And I am really looking forward to hearing what your next steps are and seeing where you go from here. But I truly appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing all of this, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:42]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great, and I hope that someone finds some good tips and some help from this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on a journey through graduate school is transformative. For many students, it's a leap that demands resilience, curiosity, and unwavering determination. In this week's episode of Victors in Grad School we sat down with Grant Voisinet, a graduate of the Doctorate of Nurse Anesthesia Practice (DNAP) program at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his path to becoming a nurse anesthetist. Grant shared invaluable insights and reflections on his journey from undergraduate education to becoming a full-fledged CRNA (Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist) and educator.

The Initial Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Grant Voisinet knew from early on in his nursing career that he wanted to further his education. His initial plan was to become a nurse practitioner, but exposure to the role of nurse anesthetists in the ICU where he worked changed his career trajectory. "Seeing what CRNAs did and the level of respect they commanded in the operating room piqued my interest," Grant recounted. It was through shadowing these professionals and discussing the field with an anesthesiologist that his passion for anesthesia solidified.

Choosing the Right Program: Why U of M Flint?

Selecting the right graduate program is a critical step. Grant chose the University of Michigan Flint for several reasons. He appreciated the program's well-structured progression—starting with heavy didactic coursework and gradually increasing clinical exposure. Furthermore, the university's prestigious reputation and the supportive faculty played a significant role in his decision. As Grant put it, "The progression of U of M's program and the supportive faculty made it stand out."

Transitioning Back to Education

Returning to academia after working in the field requires significant adjustment. For Grant, preparing for the GRE and CCRN exams before applying to the DNAP program helped ease this transition. Once in the program, he experimented with various study techniques to find what worked best for him. "I tried four or five study techniques before finding the most efficient one," Grant shared. His approach had to adapt further as he transitioned from didactic learning to hands-on clinical placements.

Moving from Student to Educator

After graduating, Grant's commitment to education didn't stop. He began teaching at U of M Flint while continuing to practice clinically. His drive to educate the next generation of nurse anesthetists stems from his own positive experiences and the desire to give back. As an instructor who also works in the OR, he brings real-world experience to his students. "I wanted to help shape the minds of the new CRNAs and ensure they provide the best care possible," he said.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

Grant offers prospective graduate students several pieces of advice:

1. Expect Challenges:

   Graduate school is demanding, but maintaining focus on end goals is crucial.

2. Ask Questions:

   Engaging with faculty and peers through questions enhances understanding and retention.

3. Build Connections:

   Developing a support network among classmates is invaluable for sharing knowledge and experiences.

Grant Voisinet's journey exemplifies the dedication and adaptability required to succeed in graduate school and professional practice. His story underscores the importance of selecting the right program, finding effective study habits, and maintaining a balance between professional practice and education. As Dr. Lewis highlighted, having mentors like Grant who understand and guide students through their academic and professional pathways is essential for success. For those considering a similar path, Grant's experiences provide a roadmap that blends perseverance, continuous learning, and a passion for teaching.

For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduate-programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Whether you are at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to do this grand school thing? Or maybe you've applied and gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school working toward that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, there is a continuum. There is a there is a journey that you're on that you're going to be going through from the very beginning to the very end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: And there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner. And those are not always things that you might know about. And it's so it's important to be able to take the time to learn, to be willing to listen, and to grow from individuals that have gone before you, that have been able to figure out for themselves what did it take for them to be successful. Because what they can do is then share that with you to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school, have been successful in graduate school, have come out on the other side, and have been successful, and they are sharing that success with you. Today, we got another great guest with us. Grant Voisonette is with us, and Grant is a graduate of the doctorate of nurse anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: He did his undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University and went on to get that degree at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that and get to know him a little bit better in that regard. Grant, thanks so much for being here today.

Grant Voisinet [00:02:10]: Yes. Thanks for having me, Chris. I'm excited to talk to everybody about, about my journey and, what it took for me to get to where I am now. So thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: I'm really excited to be able to have you here today. And, the, the first thing that I love doing in these opportunities to talk with people about their experiences is to turn the clock back in time. So I'm gonna go back to that moment that you made that that switch. And I know you you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University. You graduated, went off into the workforce, got some experience, because that's kind of what you have to do to become a nurse anesthesist.

Grant Voisinet [00:02:45]: You got to have some nursing experience to be able to do that. But you got that experience. But at some point in those first few years of being a nurse and being out in the field, you made a choice. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you made a decision to continue it and to work toward becoming a nurse anesthetist. Bring me back to that point. What made you make that decision of going to graduate school?

Grant Voisinet [00:03:13]: Well, I kind of always knew I wanted to go back and get a further degree other than nursing. I enjoy helping people, and I enjoy being at the bedside. Originally, I wanna go back and be a nurse practitioner. I thought that that's the path that that I wanted to be. When I first got my job in the ICU outside of school, I worked with very sick patients, and I would get patients back from the operating room and nurse anesthetists would bring them to me. And the first couple of times, I didn't really know honestly what nurse anesthesia was. And then I started probing the CRNA that would bring patients back to me and ask them, like, what their job entailed and and they'd explain it to me. And once I saw all that they did, and when they walked into the ICU and commanded the room and everyone respected them, I was like, yeah, that's something that I wanna do.

Grant Voisinet [00:04:02]: I wanna be able to still work at the bedside in this capacity with sick patients and to have my advanced degree. So that was really exciting to me. And so I started seeking out opportunities to shadow, CRNAs in in the actual operating room. 1 of my dad's friends happened to be an anesthesiologist, and so I chatted with him a couple of times to see what anesthesia was, And I fell in love with it. So that's kind of what pushed me in the CRNA direction versus the the nurse practitioner direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: And you chose to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. So talk to me about that, because there are other c n r CRNA programs that you could have chosen, whether it be in the state of Michigan or beyond. So I'm sure that you went through some process to be able to take a look at the different programs to try to figure out which would be the right one for you. And how did you choose U of M Flint as the place for you?

Grant Voisinet [00:05:03]: So when I first started looking, I there's 5 programs in in the state of Michigan. They're all phenomenal programs. I worked 2 ICU jobs. One was at Mid Michigan and one of my coworkers had just gotten into U of M's program. And I she worked a little bit the 1st semester that she was in still in the ICU. And so I talked to her about the program and she discussed with me the setup of the program, the faculty, the clinical sites that they rotated to, and all what she said kind of checked the boxes for me. And it helps that to University of Michigan program and University of Michigan is a phenomenal school. And so all of those kind of combined that I obviously then did my research on the other schools, and I liked how you have influenced program was set up.

Grant Voisinet [00:05:50]: A lot of didactic at the beginning, like a lot of your science classes, your core class you need to know before going to the operating room, and then it eases you in to clinical in the ORs 2 days a week and then full time. And I really liked the progression of the program that U of M has to offer. And then once I was in the program, I realized that, yes, how the program is set up is fantastic. The faculty were amazing. They're supportive, always willing to help and make sure not only didactically and clinically we are succeeding, but also our mental health, especially I went during COVID, our mental health during all that was in check-in and doing well as well because in order for us to succeed, at least for me, mental health is a big deal. And the faculty here in the DNAP program at U of M Flint is second to none. They are really phenomenal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now every student that goes through the graduate program has to make a transition. So you you went and you made a transition from both undergrad to workforce and worked for a number of years. So then you had to come back to education. You make that transition from the workforce to education. And the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're taught as a graduate student. There's a transition there as well. So talk to me about transitions. And what did you have to do to find success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entirety of the program?

Grant Voisinet [00:07:28]: So for me, my whole life, I've had a strong foundation for scholastics. I worked hard in high school, I worked hard in undergrad as many people that are in this program or all the people that are in this program do, and in order to continue into the program, it's changed a little bit now, but we had to take the GRE was a test that we had to take and get a score on, and submit it to the program. Now there's another exam, it's called the CCRN, that nurses take to show their knowledge within the ICU or critical care area. And so before I got into school, I did all of these exams and studied for these these tests, which kind of kept me grounded in the studying aspect a little bit. So when I got into the program and started that 1st semester, I kind of already had started transitioning back into studying while I was preparing to to apply to the program, with those other exams. So that was beneficial. Other than that, I just kind of had to relearn different study habits for the amount of material that I learned. So instead of just having to study for this GRE or the CCRN, I had 5 different didactic classes of different areas of knowledge that I had to learn.

Grant Voisinet [00:08:37]: And so the 1st semester, I think I went through 4 or 5 different study techniques to see which worked best for me. And then I finally found what was the most time efficient and beneficial for me, and I kind of stuck with that throughout the remainder of the program. As it progressed, didactic kind of decreased and clinical increased. And so when that happened, my mindset had to switch again. I had to go from, oh, how do I study for this exam to how do I prepare for this huge cranny that I have the next day? Or how do I prepare for my open heart rotation? And so then I had to reassess how to learn or prepare for that aspect. And then finally, at the end, we have to take a big certification or licensing exam to get our license, and then I had to kind of revert back to how I studied didactically at the beginning of the program. So it's kind of jumping back and forth throughout.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:28]: Now you graduated. You got out into the workforce. You're using that degree now, and you're also teaching in the program. So you've come back and now you're teaching and you're working with other students. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what made you decide to not only go out and use the degree in a practical sense of working in the hospitals, but now coming back to educate other students.

Grant Voisinet [00:09:55]: So even when I was in nursing, as a nurse at the bedside, I always had this desire to teach students. I liked having student nurses or orienting them essentially, and I knew I wanted to teach in some aspect. So when I started anesthesia school, the professors that we had, Doctor. Wahl, Jeffrey and Koviak, they still worked clinically at the bedside while also teaching full time the program. And I really liked that aspect of it, and I liked how they could have the best of both worlds essentially. So I graduated, I started working at McLaren, and I got students pretty quickly after I graduated, coming to clinical. And so I would be the preceptor at at the hospital for the cases. And I really loved watching this 1st semester clinical student come in and get their 1st intubation ever, the excitement, the real on their face, the relief on their face.

Grant Voisinet [00:10:49]: And then I also enjoyed having a student that was struggling doing this, me walking them through different techniques that I do to be able to get a difficult intubation, and then the next one they get and they nail. And again, the excitement that they finally got this task that they were trying to do. And so seeing that in these students that I would get in in the clinical setting made me kinda think about, oh, maybe I wanna teach too. Maybe I wanna do the do both things like my faculty did. And so then I had a class in the winter of last year as a Leo, and so I taught one class. And then in the spring summer, I taught 2 classes and then a position opened and I applied and I got in. And since then I've been teaching full time there and I went down to once a week to once a month at McLaren working clinically, and so I can still do the anesthesia that I really love to do, but I can also help shape the minds of the new that are coming in and make sure that they are prepared to to give the best care possible to the patients that they take care of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: So now as you think back to the education that you got in the program, and as you look back at the education that you got and you think about the journey that you went on as a graduate student yourself, as you look at the students that you're interacting with now as a faculty member and the interactions that you've had with them, and you think about students just in general that are going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those students that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Grant Voisinet [00:12:20]: I think the most important thing is they need to know that it's going to be challenging. It's going to be hard. And just to kind of get their mindset, and on some days, this is gonna suck. It's not gonna be fun, but kind of just look at the end goal and what they wanna do and how they wanna progress their lives. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I know as a student, I asked questions all the time. I wanted to make sure I understood what they were teaching me so I could keep my patient safe and so I could understand it, so I could teach it to somebody else one day. And asking questions, it's always gonna be beneficial.

Grant Voisinet [00:12:55]: It's gonna make you think about why the answer is what it is or isn't what you thought it was. And so I think asking questions is the best piece of advice I can give. Along with that, if you're in the program, when you're going to a program, make connections with your classmates. Having that connection, honestly, when I was in school helped so much, maybe because it was COVID, but I was able to lean on them. When there was a hard case that I did, I could message them, and I could say, Hey, this was a kind of a crummy day at clinical. What would you do different? How could I improve for the next day? And they, we would talk about what happened. We would talk about difficult assignments and things like that. And just having that support system of people that are actually going through what you're going through was also very beneficial to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: Well, Grant, I just wanna say thank you. Thank for thank you for the the information that you shared today, for the sharing the journey that you went through, but also the work that you're doing to be able to educate additional students and helping other students through this process, through this journey that they're on. Because it can be challenging, as you said, and sometimes it can be hard. And having those mentors and those individuals there that understand the experience that they're going through and are there to shepherd and guide them through that is so critical. So I truly appreciate the work that you're doing and what you've shared today, and I wish you the best.

Grant Voisinet [00:14:13]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate you having me, and I I look forward to chitchatting with you again about this maybe one day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating graduate school while balancing life, work, and personal aspirations is no easy feat. Yet for Dr. Denise Cooper, Program Director for the Doctorate of Nursing Practitioner (DNP) program at the University of Michigan Flint, it's a path laden with challenges, rewards, and invaluable lessons. In this week's Victors in Grad School, Dr. Cooper shared her journey and provided insights for those considering or currently navigating the rigors of graduate education.

From Undergraduate to Advanced Practice Nursing

Dr. Cooper's journey began as an undergraduate at the University of Michigan Flint, where she initially set her sights on becoming a nurse anesthetist. Despite her passion and preparation, shadowing professionals in the field revealed that her aspirations didn't align with the realities of the role. She realized she yearned for deeper patient interactions, a value she felt would be better fulfilled by becoming a nurse practitioner.

"After shadowing, I'm so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do," Cooper shared. This pivotal moment highlighted the importance of real-world experiences in solidifying career decisions.

The Leap to Doctoral Education

After obtaining her Master's degree in Nursing, Dr. Cooper could have easily settled into her role as a practicing Nurse Practitioner. However, her commitment to education and teaching led her to pursue a terminal degree.

"The longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back," explained Cooper. Her decision was fueled by a desire to grow both as an educator and a practitioner, and to enhance her capacity to contribute to her field.

Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Education

Dr. Cooper's educational journey was marked by significant life events. "Like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family," she noted. Notably, she had all her children while in grad school, a tremendous challenge she does not recommend frivolously. The key to her success? "Perseverance and the willingness to pivot when needed."

Her journey emphasizes that determination and adaptability are crucial to overcoming the myriad of obstacles that graduate students often face.

Preparing for a Role in Academia and Administration

Transitioning into a full-time faculty role and eventually into administration, Dr. Cooper distills her growth into one word: exposure. Engaging with diverse colleagues, participating in committees, teaching varying courses, and attending conferences broadened her perspective and honed her problem-solving skills.

"Nursing is a lot of problem solving…there's a lot of problem solving that goes on," Dr. Cooper reflected. Embracing the philosophy that "everything is figureoutable" has been instrumental in her professional and personal growth.

Offering Advice to Aspiring Graduate Students

To those embarking on a similar journey, Dr. Cooper advises a commitment to the process. "You have to really want it … be committed to gaining this degree and being a professional… there will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that." This commitment, combined with the understanding that faculty are dedicated to their success, forms the bedrock of a graduate student's journey.

Dr. Denise Cooper's story is one of resilience, adaptability, and unwavering commitment. It serves as a testament and guide for current and prospective graduate students who aspire to navigate their own challenging yet rewarding paths in higher education. With the right mindset and support system, success in graduate school—and beyond—is within reach.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together. Whether you are at the very beginning just starting to think about, do I want to go back to school? Do I wanna continue my education? Or maybe you've already applied and got accepted. Or or maybe you're in graduate school, and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel getting ready to graduate and head off into your new career area. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And this show is here to be able to help you, to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, to gain some tools for your toolbox, and allow for you to be able to gain some perspective about things that you can do to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are able to share their own journey and what they learned in that journey to be able to help you on the journey that you're gonna be going on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Denise Cooper is with us today. And Denise is the program director for our doctorate of nursing practitioner program, the DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get both a master's and doctorate degree from the University of Michigan. Really excited to have her here for her to share her journey. Denise, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:01:42]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Really excited to have you here today and to talk to you further about your own journey. And for one of the things that I love to do at the very beginning is turn the clock back in time. So I would love to be able to go back. And I know, like I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point during that journey, during your early career, you you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to go back, continue your education, and get a further degree. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide to move on to get that master's degree?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:02:22]: Well, I have to say that I kinda knew all along. So I didn't know all along that I wanted to be a nurse, but when I decided I wanted to be a nurse, I also decided that I wanted to be a nurse anesthetist. So my plan was to get my nursing degree and to work in a critical care area and to apply to anesthesia school at the University of Michigan Flint. After I became a nurse, I worked in the ICU, CCU area, which I absolutely loved. And while I was doing that, I decided that I was going to shadow some c r n a's that were at the hospital that I was working at. So I did end up shadowing 2 of them. And after shadowing, I'm so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do, so that was quite a surprise to me. However, I did know that I wanted to advance my education, and so I determined that nurse practitioner would be the best option for me.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:03:16]: I really like the interaction with patients, And for me, that was really important, and I didn't think I was going to get that level of interaction as a CRNA, and but I knew I would get that as a nurse practitioner. I love helping people, and I just knew that I could help people at a higher level. And so that's what really brought me to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor to pursue my nurse practitioner master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: Now you went on from there though, and you decided you got that that nurse practitioner degree. You could have stopped there. You could have said, I'm done. I'm just gonna go use this NP degree and go and practice and help people in different ways. But you made the choice to continue on and to get the DNP, the doctorate of nurse practitioner degree, the terminal degree for a nurse outside of the PhD in nursing. So talk to me about that, and what made you decide to push beyond the MSN?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:10]: So I didn't think I was gonna get my doctorate. I thought I was gonna stop at my masters. But the longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started teaching at the University of Michigan Flint School of Nursing, and I started teaching in the undergraduate program. The more and more I was teaching in the undergraduate program, I moved into the graduate program as an just an adjunct faculty, and I was working as a nurse practitioner. I'm like, okay. I really like this. And I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back. And, so the more I researched the different terminal degrees, a PhD versus a DNP, I decided that a a practice degree was the area that I really wanted to pursue.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:51]: And it that it was I knew it was a terminal degree. I knew it was the right thing to do, and I knew that if if I wanted to work as a faculty member that I really needed to pursue completing my education, if you will, with that terminal degree. So I ended up going back to Ann Arbor and doing the MSN to DNP.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: Now with every degree that a student goes through, there are transitions. So you had a transition from being a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan Flint, you transitioned into work, you transitioned from work, you back into the MSN, you you worked for a bit as an NP, You so you transitioned back into work, and then you transitioned back again and got that terminal degree. And you may have been doing some work while you were doing school too as as a part of that as well. So talk to me about well, as you think about all of those transitions, especially the transitions into different types of educational models, different schools, different programs, different expectations, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different educational models and to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire educational journey at each level?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:06:04]: There was a lot to maintaining it. So like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family, and just trying to make those decisions about what was the right thing to do. I will tell you that I had all of my children while I was in grad school, which, by the way, I don't recommend that to anyone, while I was getting my master's degree. So I've learned a lot along the way about what to do and what not to do. I made it work. It took me a little longer to get that master's, and I'm glad that I stuck with it and that I I stretched it out, but, you know, I kinda had to pivot. I had to to do things differently than I had planned, but it all worked out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:48]: I appreciate you sharing that because it's it's definitely not always easy. And there's a lot there's bumps in the road. There's things that you have to overcome. And it's not always going to be smooth sailing. There are definitely going to be challenges. And sometimes the challenges are easy to overcome. Sometimes they are more much more difficult to overcome. But the perseverance piece is so important to be able to keep pushing through and to find those supports along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:14]: Now I know that you have transitioned into being a full time faculty member, a administrator now in the program, the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back now to all of the different education that you had that led you to where you are today, and you think back to the the things that you learned and the programs that you went through, what are some of the things that you feel prepared you best for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:07:46]: Well, you know, time is one thing. The the longer you hear, the more you learn, the more you involve yourself with. Right? Being on committees, involvement with the community, teaching different classes at different levels, encountering lots of different students. We have a really diverse faculty here, so just learning from all of them. I think each of those things helped me grow. So and and just exposing myself to people outside of the university, attending conferences and presenting at conferences, partnering with faculty at other universities for publications and research studies. Just all of those things really just helped me grow into the position that I'm in now. I wouldn't say I ever saw myself in management position.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:08:30]: I just always saw myself in a nurse or nurse practitioner position where I was helping people, but what I have found is I actually I help lots of people in this position too. Nursing is a lot of problem solving, and this position, whether it's faculty teaching a course or whether it's a director, there's a lot of problem solving that goes on. So I think my experience, many years of experience, has positioned me well to be able to problem solve and figure things out. One of my colleagues has a plaque on her desk that I absolutely love, and it says everything is figureoutable. And that's my motto, is everything is figureoutable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:08]: Now I know that you work with a lot of graduate students of that you've worked with a lot of graduate students over the years, and you have had your own experience that has helped you to not only teach, but also to mentor and to help students along the way. As you think about students that you're seeing in your program right now, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see those graduate students running into? And what type of advice might you offer to them that would help them to be able to overcome those issues?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:09:39]: I would say grad students run into a variety of of issues, but I would say probably the biggest thing is that we're post licensure. Right? So we have nurses, and nurses are most of them are working, and a lot of them have families. And so unlike some other grad programs where students don't work, In our program, the students are working, and I would say that that way, the biggest thing that they encounter is time, a lack thereof. Grad school is heavy. It's not easy. It's doable, but it's not easy. And it does take a big time commitment, and there's a lot of sacrifices. I I always tell my students that there's you will make sacrifices.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:10:24]: There will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that and, you know, being committed to that. Students work a lot. They manage, lots of things within their families. Sometimes they carry the health insurance. And so we're very aware of a lot of the issues that our students encounter. And we do the best we can to have the curriculum designed to be able to help them through that, but they have to be committed and remain resilient and committed to the process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:52]: Well, Denise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for the advice that you've offered to students. This has been great. And, you know, as you think about success and students, whether they are in your program, whether they're in another they're going toward another graduate degree, are there any other pieces of advice you'd want to give to all graduate students?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:14]: I would say that, I guess, kind of I'm gonna go back to the commitment piece. You have to really want it. I want my students in my class, they have to want it more than I want it. So I want to make sure that they know that they're in the right place and that they're committed to gaining this degree and being a professional as a nurse practitioner or whatever graduate degree they're getting, physical therapist, physician's assistant, whatever it is, that that's their vision and that they're committed to that vision and also that they know that as faculty that we've all been there and we're committed to their success. We actually really care. We're not just here for a job. This isn't just a job to us. We are committed to their success.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:59]: Their success is our success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:01]: Well, as mentioned, Denise, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for the work that you are doing with your students to be able to help them to be successful in the programs that they're in, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:12:13]: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:15]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a journey that resonates differently with each individual. For Dr. Chris Douglas, the Interim Dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education, and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey began with a passion for mathematics and science, and has culminated in an inspiring academic and professional career. In this week's episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Douglas shares his experiences, offering valuable insights and strategies for achieving success in graduate school.

Discovering His Path

Dr. Douglas began his academic journey at Michigan Technological University, where he pursued a double bachelor's degree. It was during this time that his passion for economics was ignited. He initially embarked on an engineering degree due to a strong affinity for math and science. However, an economics course shifted his trajectory, showcasing how mathematical models could elucidate real-world economic phenomena such as unemployment, recessions, and inflation.

This newfound interest led Dr. Douglas to pursue further studies in economics, leveraging the commonalities between economics and engineering, particularly in the use of advanced mathematical and statistical techniques.

The Decision to Pursue a PhD

The decision to pursue graduate studies is a significant one, often influenced by various factors. For Dr. Douglas, it was a combination of personal interests and the state of the job market in 2001, a period marked by an economic recession. Encouragement from a professor, who recognized his aptitude for economics, further motivated him to apply for PhD programs. Ultimately, Dr. Douglas chose Michigan State University for his PhD, citing proximity to home, the program's prestigious ranking, and a generous fellowship package as key factors.

Transitioning to Graduate Studies

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies can be daunting. Dr. Douglas likens the experience to the difference between drinking from a garden hose and a fire hose, emphasizing the increased intensity and workload of a PhD program. He highlights the importance of building a support system by connecting with fellow classmates, especially in programs with rigorous coursework like economics or engineering.

One of Dr. Douglas's crucial strategies for success was collaborating with peers on complex problem sets, fostering a sense of camaraderie and support during challenging times. This approach not only facilitated academic success but also helped mitigate the loneliness that can accompany prolonged graduate studies.

From Academia to Administration

While a PhD program prepares students for academic and research careers, it often doesn't directly equip them for administrative roles. Dr. Douglas's transition to the interim dean position was shaped more by accumulated experiences and mentorship than formal education. His progression from department chair to associate dean, and now interim dean, underscores the value of building relationships, seeking mentorship, and being open to feedback and continuous learning.

Tips for Success in Graduate School

Drawing from his extensive experience, Dr. Douglas offers several valuable tips for aspiring graduate students:

1. Build Connections

   Form relationships with classmates and professors to create a network of support and collaboration.

2. Seek Help Early

   Utilize office hours and resources provided by faculty to stay ahead, especially in challenging subjects.

3. Don't Procrastinate

   Begin work on major projects early and break them down into manageable steps to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

4. Embrace Mentorship

   Seek guidance from experienced faculty and peers to navigate the complexities of graduate school and career development.

Dr. Chris Douglas's journey through graduate school to his current role as an interim dean illustrates the multifaceted nature of academic and professional success. His insights serve as a valuable guide for current and prospective graduate students, emphasizing the importance of planning, collaboration, and continuous learning. For those embarking on this journey, Dr. Douglas's story is a testament to the rewards that perseverance, support, and strategic planning can bring.

For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit UM-Flint Graduate Programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this path that you're on because it is a journey. You you and I are on a journey together as we're looking at graduate school, as you're considering graduate school, as you you know, and and you might be at many different places. You could be just starting to think about graduate school, haven't even applied. You might maybe you applied, and you just got that acceptance letter. Maybe you're in graduate school, or you're getting toward the end of graduate school, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: No matter where you are, this is a journey that you're on. And throughout this journey, there are many opportunities for you to be able to find success. And that's that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can talk about those experiences and share what they learned in their own graduate school journey to be able to help you on yours. This week we've got another great guest. Doctor Chris Douglas is with us. And Chris is the interim dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: And he's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And his journey led him from being a undergraduate student at Michigan Technological University to becoming a PhD student at Michigan State University. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that he went on and which led him to being a faculty member and working with students like yourself in at the University of Michigan Flint. Chris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:00]: Oh, you're welcome. Great to be here, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: I'm really excited to have you here. And I wanna turn the clock back in time first because I as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Michigan Technological University and got a double bachelor's degree when you were up there. And at some point in that time that you were working on those bachelor's degrees, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue with your education. Bring me back to that point. And why did you choose to go to graduate school?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:31]: So if I wanna go way far back, I graduated high school in 1997. I I always thought I wanted to be an engineer because I liked math. I liked science, and I was pretty good at both. So I went to Michigan Tech because they had a pretty good engineering program, gave me a good financial aid package. So I started my engineering program. It would be fall of 1997. And then as part of general education, I took an economics course. I had never taken economics in high school.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:53]: I took an economics course. It was principles of macroeconomics. I forget if this was 1997 or 1998. I thought it was fascinating. I really thought it was interesting how you could take pretty straightforward mathematical economic models and use them to make real world predictions about the complicated world around us. They explain things like unemployment, recessions, inflation, the business cycle, all the things that we care about as voters, as American citizens, as workers. So I decided to take a microarchaplics course and then I had transferred in several credits because I dual enrolled as a high school student. So that gave me some flexibility to pick up another bachelor degree without really extending my stay in college.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:03:35]: So since I liked economics quite a bit and it turns out there's a lot of commonalities in terms of of the techniques used in economics and the techniques used in engineering. And would it appear that way to be be that way on the surface, but economics involves, especially at the graduate level, lots of math, lots of calculus, lots of statistics, lots of the same techniques used as engineering. So the two majors really complemented each other. So then I became a senior in 2,001. I thought I wanted to get a job in the engineering field. I went on several job interviews, and I started to think like, no. This really isn't for me when I started learning about what a career in engineering would entail. It's for a lot of people just wasn't really for me.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:13]: And you might remember back in 2001, there was a recession, so the job market wasn't really that robust anyway. And then an economics professor during an office hours visit kind of played at a bug saying, no. You're pretty good at economics. You might think about a PhD program. And that bug in my ear kinda grew. And then I decided to take the GRE, apply to graduate schools, got accepted to Michigan State, and the rest is history.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:37]: Now you just mentioned that you went to Michigan State University for your PhD in economics, and every person goes through a process of looking at their options. And I'm sure you had had options out there. You applied to numerous schools to look at your options. Why did you choose to attend Michigan State University for your degree?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:58]: So a few reasons. 1st, I was close to home. I grew up in Michigan. I bounced around a lot as a kid, but always in Michigan. So Michigan State was maybe 3 hours from my hometown, which was nice. Michigan State was a a highly ranked program in the economics field. Depending on the ranking, it's anywhere between 25th 35th, something like that. So we're respectively ranked, which would make it easier to get a tenure track job, which was my goal.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:05:22]: The faculty were well published, heard good experiences from the graduate students I talked to when I visited campus, went thinking where I wanted to attend, and they gave a a generous fellowship package where, in my 1st year, I was able to serve as a teaching assistant. I always wanted to teach as as well as doing research, so teaching was really important to me. So that teaching assistantship my 1st year meant that I would hold office hours, grade papers, I worked at a help room. But that really laid the groundwork for me to teach my own independent class since my 3rd year and beyond in graduate school. And that teaching experience was really crucial to get my tenure track job here at the University of Michigan Flint. And it really hit the ground running because once I graduated from the PhD program, I wasn't teaching 1 class a semester like I was at graduate school. I was teaching 3 classes a semester while trying to work on research just like I was doing at graduate school. So graduate school is a lot of work, but once I got my full time job here, the workload totally increased.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:06:16]: So having that teaching experience really helped me hit the ground running. It really got my foot in the door to academia because prospective employers saw that I had the teaching experience. And the course evaluations are pretty good for my classes, so I thought that would help. Universities feel pretty comfortable that they were hiring a decent instructor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: Now every person, as they go from one educational model to a new educational model, from one degree to another degree, you have to learn things. You have to figure out what is different, but also what is the same. And you did make that transition going from the bachelor's degree at Michigan Technological University to Michigan State University. And you made that transition from a bachelor's into the PhD, and you found success. You got through the program. You got your degree. And I guess as you think back to the education and the transition that you went through, what did you have to do as you transitioned into your PhD to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:21]: So a PhD program is just more much more intense than a bachelor degree program. So if a bachelor degree program is like drinking from a garden hose, a PhD program is like drinking from from a fire hose. So you just have to be ready for the amount of work, the amount of responsibility that comes from being in a graduate program. I would assume a master's program I've never been to in a dedicated master's program, but I'm guessing a master's program is somewhere between a bachelor and a PhD program. So it's kinda like anything else in life. The farther you go, the more the workload steps up. You just have to be ready for that and expect it. And then think through strategies of how to be successful.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:59]: So one strategy I found was and this was absolutely crucial for me, was to get to know my fellow classmates in graduate school because especially in the 1st year, we would work through lots of problem sets. Economics graduate school is a lot like an engineering program that we have these complicated problem sets that require lots of complicated mathematics to complete. And that's just much more feasible to do at a group setting rather than by yourself. And it's also good to have that support system too because graduate school can feel like a bit of a lonely experience. A PhD program is 4 plus years. It took me 5 years. You know, 6 years is not uncommon. And you're doing that in your twenties where everything feels like a lifetime at that point because you're in your twenties.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:08:38]: You're still pretty young. So it's really hard to see that light at the end of the tunnel, although looking back, 5 years feels like a blink of an eye. So it's just good to have that support system where everyone's in the same boat, everyone has the same goal, get through this graduate program so that we can, you know, fulfill our postgraduate goals. And a PhD program outfit is a 10 year track job, but in an economics PhD program, it's not always a 10 year track job. It could be a job at industry. That's pretty common. A job with the federal government. That's also very common for people who work for, say, the Federal Reserve or the Federal Trade Commission, things like that.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:12]: But everyone has the same common goal of, you know, get through the graduate program and in particular, get through the 1st year. Because of the PhD program, it's very common to have, like, a 1st year exam. So my 1st year exams are called the preliminary exams, so those lasted over the course of 2 days. It was 4 exams over 2 days. You had to pass those, we called them prelims, to continue on to the 2nd year. So everyone in the program had the same goal, pass the prelims. So that made it really crucial to have the support structure with the with the rest of the our classmates. And I think that's probably true for any other graduate program, including master's programs.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:48]: You'll get to know your students in the program. Most programs are probably cohorted. So get to know the students in your cohort because you're all in the same boat. You're working on the same assignments. You have very similar career goals. It's just very, very helpful to have that support system.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:03]: Now you completed that PhD. You became a professor of economics at the University of Michigan, Flint. And currently, as I mentioned, you are the interim dean for the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education. And I usually ask, when you think back to your graduate education, how did that prepare you for what you do? Now I will say that as a professor, it probably makes sense. You're teaching courses that you learned about, you you researched about, that you figured out along the way. But I guess now as an administrator working with many different programs, and you look back at your graduate education, how did your graduate education prepare you to be a interim dean for a college?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:10:46]: Yeah. That's an interesting question because I think the right answer is it really didn't. A PhD program prepares you to be a tenure track faculty member, in particular, a tenure track faculty member at a research university because the focus of a PhD program in a major research university like Michigan State is work on research, you know, published in top journals, which, of course, is important. But there's not as much of a focus on teaching, although that might have changed. It's been nearly 20 years since I've graduated my PhD program. So that's why I thought it was really crucial to get that teaching experience. And there's really no preparation to serve at a leadership capacity at academia. And I think that probably makes sense because to to serve at a leadership capacity, that's gonna be mid career at the earliest for academia because you have to get through the tenure process first to get tenure as an associate professor.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:11:35]: That's 6 years. To get tenure to get promoted to a full professor, that's probably another 6 years minimum after that. So we're talking a dozen years after that first tenure track hire that's pretty far removed from a PhD program. So I think it's kind of the lessons you learned along the way and those gradual steps up in the leadership process that prepares you to take on a dean position. So I began as department chair after I became an associate professor back in 2013. I served as department chair in economics for quite a while, probably close to a decade. And then the College of Arts and Sciences before education was brought on board was reorganized into larger departments. And then I later served as the department chair of Social Sciences and Humanities.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:17]: I think I began that in 2022. That I was associate dean for a semester that I became interim dean starting the fall of 2024. So I think, a lot of leadership is just a learning experience. You get more and more responsibility. You take on larger and larger leadership roles, and, you know, things just kind of progress from there. So I think a lot of it's mentorship too. I was fortunate to have some senior faculty mentor me when I was younger. People in the dean's office mentored me, very well when I was working my way up through the ranks.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:49]: So I think a lot of it is experience, mentorship, and just learning along the way. Being open to feedback, course correction, and just working with people, building relationships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Now I know that you've had an opportunity to work and to teach and to connect with many different graduate students over the years. And as you think about not only your own graduate school experience, but also the experience you've had as a faculty member, as a mentor to other graduate students, and you think about success, what are some tips that you might offer to students, no matter what type of graduate degree that they are going into, that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:13:28]: So I've taught in the master's of public administration program ever since I started the university. I teach the quantitative methods class. I first taught it in winter of 2008. I've even scheduled to teach it in the winter 2025 semester despite me being the interim dean. So I've worked with a lot of masters of public administration students during my time here at University of Michigan Flint as well as being a great a former graduate student myself. So So like we talked about earlier, a big tip is make friends with your fellow classmates. You're all in the same boat working on the same assignments. Collaboration is just makes life so much easier for you rather than trying to do things alone.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:14:05]: I know that's become challenging, in the post COVID world where maybe things are more online. You know, people maybe still are a little bit more isolated than what they were before COVID, but somehow it's just really important to connect with your fellow classmates and also connect with your professors. As professors, we're here to help. We have office hours. Those are designed for students to drop in with questions. It's always crucial for students in quantitative methods class to drop in sooner rather than a little later if they have questions because in a subject like statistics, if you start to fall behind, it's really easy to fall behind quickly if you don't get help right away. So we as professors, you know, we're here to help. That's why we have office hours.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:14:45]: That's why we have our email address on the syllabus. We like helping students. That's why we got to the profession in the 1st place. That's why I wanted to get into academia rather than a job in industry either as an engineer or as a professional economist. So just being willing to talk to your fellow students, talk to your professors, don't be afraid to ask questions. We really are here to help. I've always taught quantitative based class. I've never taught a class that's required a lot of writing, that's required a lot of term papers, but those classes exist, of course.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:15:16]: So if you have a big project that's due at the end of the semester, it's really important to start that right away. Don't push things off to the last minute because that's how you get overwhelmed. So a semester is 14 weeks long. 14 weeks sounds like a long time, but once the semester gets rolling, it'll be week 13, week 14 before we know. So in addition to being a dean, I also like to long distance run as a hobby. I've run numerous half marathons. I've even run a few full marathons. And how do you run a full marathon? Well, it's just one step at a time.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:15:46]: You just have to break it down to 1 mile at a time. Because if you just start thinking about the full 26 miles, you'll just start to get totally overwhelmed. And I think that's a good metaphor for graduate school or a graduate class as well. To You start thinking about the 30 page short paper you have to write. It's gonna seem overwhelming. But if you start breaking it breaking it down into steps, what's my topic? What's my abstract? What's my introduction? What's my outline? What's the conclusion I'm reaching? So you start to break it down into steps and you work on it step by step. All of a sudden, that marathon feels pretty doable. So it's really important to stay on top of things, begin sooner rather than later, don't procrastinate, And just break things down into bite sized chunks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:27]: I love that advice, and it is definitely a good metaphor for finding success. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate all that you shared in the journey that you went on. Thank you so much for being here today, and I wish you the best.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:16:41]: Oh, you're welcome. It's great talking with you, Chris, and I'm sure I'll see you around campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

The journey through graduate school is multifaceted, filled with challenges, growth, and incredible learning opportunities. In a recent episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Dr. Sapna Thwaite, Vice Provost for Academic Affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss her journey and offer invaluable advice for students. Here's a deep dive into the insights they shared.

The Birth of a Calling: Choosing Graduate School

Dr. Thwaite's passion for psychology and education was sparked during her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan. Initially drawn to English for her love of reading and writing, it was a developmental psychology class under Dr. Scott Harris that truly inspired her. This powerful mentorship and hands-on research experience solidified her resolve to pursue a PhD in educational psychology at Michigan State University.

Choosing the right graduate program involves self-reflection and research. Dr. Thwaite emphasized the importance of aligning your research interests with the strengths of the institution. Staying close to home was another factor for her, but it was the fit with Michigan State's academic environment that ultimately guided her decision.

Transitioning and Finding Success in Graduate School

Every academic transition comes with its challenges. For Dr. Thwaite, moving from a structured undergraduate environment to the flexible yet demanding world of graduate studies required adjustments. She noted the importance of time management and finding supportive mentors. "Lean into uncertainty," she advised, recognizing that new experiences and diverse interactions are key to growth.

Dr. Thwaite highlighted that mentorship is not restricted to one individual. Instead, she encouraged students to seek mentorship from multiple sources, including faculty and peers. Embracing a multi-mentor model allowed her to integrate diverse perspectives and cultivate a robust professional identity.

Applying Educational Psychology to Real-World Roles

Dr. Thwaite's expertise in educational psychology not only shaped her academic path but also her approach as Vice Provost. She noted the centrality of lifelong learning and development in any professional field. Creating opportunities for faculty and staff professional development is a priority for her, ensuring that everyone at the university continues to grow and excel.

In her current role, she applies theoretical knowledge to practice by fostering an inclusive, dynamic environment. Recognizing diverse identities and backgrounds as critical components of a cohesive academic community, she aims to bring out the best in everyone by emphasizing self-awareness and mutual respect.

Tips for Graduate School Success

Success in graduate school requires stepping outside of your comfort zone and engaging with the community. Dr. Thwaite's advice is particularly relevant for those entering graduate programs:

1. Embrace Uncertainty:

   Lean into the unknown and take initiative to explore new areas.

2. Seek Multiple Mentors:

   Connect with faculty, peers, and professionals who offer different perspectives.

3. Be Patient and Reflective:

   Give yourself time to adjust and self-reflect on your progress and decisions.

4. Engage Actively:

   Join groups, clubs, and attend office hours to build a supportive network.

Navigating graduate school is a transformative journey. As Dr. Thwaite articulates through her experiences, every step, whether smooth or challenging, contributes to the development of a well-rounded, successful academic and professional life. For those contemplating further education, or already on this path, her insights serve as a valuable guide.

For more insights on how to successfully navigate graduate school, stay tuned to Victor's in Grad School and explore the range of programs offered at the University of Michigan Flint.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together, and I love being able to walk with you on this path that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You might be at the very beginning just starting to think about graduate school, just starting to look at schools or programs, thinking to yourself, what do I have to do to get to that next step? Or maybe you've already applied or gotten accepted. You could even be in a program right now. No matter where you are, you are on a journey working on your education, working on your future career trajectory and goals, the vision that you have for yourself, And this show is here to be able to help you along that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have done different things in their own career, but also have gone through graduate school and have been successful. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about giving you some tips, some hints, some insights, some things that you could put into your own toolbox that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Sumna Thwaite is with us today, and doctor Thwaite is the vice provost for academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also been a long time faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Education. And really excited to be able to have her here today to talk about her own experience and to introduce her to you. Sapna, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:01:50]: Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Well, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that you went on as a student that led you to where you are today. So I'd love to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan. And at some point during that journey, you had an inkling that you were gonna go on. So there was a little bit of time between your undergraduate degree and when you went to get your PhD. So either during your undergraduate days or early in your career, you chose you identified that there was something, something that was drawing you back in to get that additional degree. Talk to me about that. Bring me back to that point where you just started thinking about graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:43]: What made you decide that going back to graduate school was what you wanted to do?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:47]: So when I was an undergraduate student, I decided very early on that I wanted to major in psychology, and I wanted to major in English. My reasons for

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:51]: wanting to psychology. And I wanted to major in English. My reasons for wanting to major in English were not practical in any way. It was because I love to read, and I also wanted to cultivate my writing skills. My interest in psychology was because I felt like psychology was perhaps a calling for me. I really enjoy my interactions with people, understanding human behavior, and understanding the way that people think. I also have always loved being around children, and I've loved being around teenagers and kind of learning about what motivates them and how they grow and they develop. And so when I was in my junior year of college, I took a psychology class that was focused on development, human development, and the professor was particularly inspiring, doctor Scott Harris.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:03:40]: I'm really happy to say that I'm still able to maintain contact with him all these years. But, as I sat in his lecture hall, I was just completely mesmerized with what he had to share, his insights about life. And it made me realize that I wanted to aspire towards a similar role in the future. And so I finally kinda conjured up the courage to go up to him after class to have a conversation with him, which was a really big deal, in a lecture hall of 200 students. And he somehow remembered my face. And later on, I was roaming through the psychology offices looking for a particular professor, not him, And he stopped me in the hallway and asked me if I wanted to explore the possibility of being one of his research assistants and for a whopping $6 an hour. And I was so excited because this is a person who I really idolized, I guess you could say, really looked up to, and I thought I had a lot of information that I could learn from him. So as I started to work with him, I realized I really wanted to go to graduate school.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:04:40]: So I was in my junior year and he was basically basically a really powerful mentor who helped me then decide and shape my next steps.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:47]: So as you were starting to think of those next steps, and you ended up deciding to go to Michigan State University to work on a PhD in educational psychology, every person goes through a different process as they are looking at different programs, looking at different institutions. Talk to me about what you did to be able to not only look at all of the options that were available to you, but also that led you to ultimately decide that Michigan State University's PhD in educational psychology was the right one for you?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:05:23]: Okay. So when I was a junior in undergrad, I was leaning more towards pursuing a PhD in developmental psychology, and I was very eager to gain research experience because I knew that I was aspiring towards a research related, degree. And so one of the things that I did that I would really strongly recommend anybody do, while they're perhaps an undergraduate student, is I volunteered to work on a research project, and that had to do with infant cognition. I was making smiley faces at babies and seeing how they reacted to me. I also participated in the research experience with the professor I just mentioned to you earlier, doctor Paris. That was a paid $6 an hour job, and it involved doing research in a school setting. So I basically tried to expose myself to research as much as I could as an undergraduate student and realized at that point that I was really more interested in learning about learning and development in educational settings. And so that's what made me deviate from that original idea of becoming a developmental psychologist and go towards ed psych.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:06:25]: I did work with that particular professor, and this really speaks to the power of mentors, to get some suggestions about possibilities. And I had really wanted to stay closer to home, though I did apply to a wide range of PhD programs. But the one thing that was emphasized to me was making sure that there was a good fit between the graduate school that you are applying to and your own research interests. So I had cultivated my research interests a little bit, as an undergraduate student. No. I had not presented it or, you know, written any papers, but I did have a sense as to where I wanted to go. So actually, I did not even have a gap between my undergrad and my PhD program. The I was advised for the kind of work that I wanted to do that going into kind of more of a straight shot doctoral program would allow one to get the equivalent of a master's degree along the way.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:07:16]: And so if you decide after taking your comprehensive exams, I think that's the point where that you no longer wanna continue on in the doctoral program, you can exit with a master's. So I had an out potentially, but and and and Michigan State University happened to have a faculty member whose work resonated with me because he was a developmental psychologist in education, which is how I was starting to kind of identify myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Every time that you go into a new type of degree, there are transitions. You go from high school to get your bachelor's, from bachelor's into a a master's or PhD program. At every level, the way that you're being taught is a little bit different, the expectations are different, and what you have to do to find success is going to be a little bit different. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. As you went from the University of Michigan as a undergraduate student into that master's, doctorate program at Michigan State University, what did you have to do as you're going through that transition to find success? But also, what did you have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the entire time in that program?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:29]: That is a really good question. So I identify as being a creature of habit. I'm very into routines and rituals, and I like being in comfortable settings, surrounded by people who I know. So for me, that transition from undergrad to grad school was a big, big leap. I was also only 22. My brother said to me my older brother said to me, you're making a mistake. You should take some time off and work. Do something else.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:54]: Get a research position. Do something to gain experience. But I was very focused on going to Michigan State because I had gotten in and I received a really good opportunity to do research there with a professor who I really, really was excited to work with. And so it seemed like the right thing to make that step. But the one thing that I had to do as I made that transition is really lean into uncertainty because this was the first time that I was moving into a territory that I really didn't know a lot about. You know, going to college, I had a lot of people around me who went to college. But going into a doctoral program in a field that I didn't have anyone around me who I could turn to, I didn't have but they'd accept with the exception of that faculty member who was a really powerful mentor for me in undergrad, I didn't have any friends or any family who had decided to pursue a doctorate in education or psychology. So I was really, like, having to lean into the uncertainty and be patient with myself and really just allow that transition to occur.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:09:57]: That 1st year was very bumpy for me, partially because I was really encountering a lot of different doctoral students with very different professional backgrounds and very different educational backgrounds than me. Some of them had been teachers. Some of them had been working for foundations. Some of them had been out in the field in other ways. And, you know, I was really one of the youngest ones there and probably one of the least experienced. But I was coming in with a psychology background, and that was really what my focus was, being a psychologist in education. And so I learned over time, the value of being able to embrace your own identity, your own emerging professional identity, but also embracing those of others and realizing there's a reason why we're all there together, to learn from each other. And it took me probably a good year before I was able to figure that piece out.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:10:44]: But it was it was not an easy transition in the beginning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]: You know, we always have to be able to do what we can to be able to learn from those pieces and then take those pieces to be able to make those adjustments. What were some of the initial adjustments that you had to make as you were learning that would that helped you as you went further and you got that experience under your belt?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:05]: I think one of the things was my undergraduate experience was a little bit more structured. Graduate school is less structured in some ways. Most of the courses occur from 4 to 7 PM. And then finding ways to manage your time during the day, I was doing research. I was also taking courses. I was also doing my own independent research projects, and I also, dabbled with a few teaching assignments in between. So, learning how to manage my time was a really big piece. And luckily, that was not something too difficult for me because I tend to be very structured in the way that I approach my daily life.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:36]: The other piece was finding those people who I could connect to, and in some ways, not just relying on finding one mentor, which I had in undergrad, but looking to take, in some ways, and this is gonna sound funny, but it it will make sense as I explain it, taking bits and pieces of the people around me and kind of starting to formulate that sense of self that I wanted to have in the future, that professional self that I was aspiring towards. So, for example, later on, as I got into my dissertation, on my dissertation committee, one of the faculty was incredibly creative and an out of the box thinker. I was not as creative. And so I took bits and pieces of what I learned from him and tried to instill a little bit more creativity in the work that I was doing. I had a colleague who had a vast knowledge of literacy practices and what my dissertation topic was gonna draw upon literacy. I took a lot of her knowledge and expertise, and that guided me to learn in different areas that I did not know a lot about. So realizing that that mentor does not just come in the shape of 1 person, but that there are bits and pieces of people around you that you can take that can help you start forming your own identity and your own future professional self. So I really give a lot of credit to those people that I interacted with, those faculty, but I had to seek them out.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:12:48]: And it didn't just involve taking classes with them or having them on a committee, but actually having conversations with them and learning about their own trajectories as a part of that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: Now you mentioned that you are currently the vice provost for academic affairs, and that's after a number of other positions that you've had at the University of Michigan Flint. And your professional career has been at the University of Michigan Flint, so you have a long history here at our university. For a number of people, when they think they got a PhD, they're they're teaching, and it it makes sense how one thing leads to another. Talk to me about the things that you learned in that educational psychology doctorate program. How has what you learned in that program led you to the work that you're doing today as vice pros provost for academic affairs? And what do you draw from in regard to that degree on a daily basis that has helped you to be able to be successful in that position?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:13:46]: That's a great question. Okay. So as I reflect here for a moment, one of the things that I have recognized now as a vice provost and, you know, I've been at U of M Flint now for almost 25 years. One of the things that I've recognized is the centrality of learning and development, in our lives as humans and and in our professional lives in whatever we do, whether we are faculty, staff, scholars, administrators, whatever. That learning and development is a is a lifelong process. We are always learning. We are always developing and that we need to create opportunities, like, at least as a vice provost, one of the things that I feel very strongly about is creating opportunities for our faculty and staff to be able to learn and develop. One of my major areas of focus next semester is professional development of all kinds, professional development for faculty and staff related to students and their sense of belonging, professional development related to research, making the transition from being an associate professor to a full professor, learning how to become a leader.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:14:47]: So all of those things that were really central to my schooling and my experience as an educational psychology doctoral student definitely apply in this day in the work that I'm doing. The other piece probably more so influenced me probably more so as a professor than maybe as a vice provost is the importance of bridging theory with practice. So we learned a lot of really valuable theoretical lenses when we were grad students, but then being able to apply it in a practical setting in a way that students can understand and that they can take with them, like helping our students cultivate the toolboxes they need to be successful in their professional careers is another piece that I learned that I would apply to my life as a faculty and scholar at U of M Flint. And then the third thing that just readily comes to mind is the lens of identity. Now that was something that I started to learn more about as a graduate student. We talked a lot about Sonia Nieto's work and how a teacher needs to delve into their own identity before they try to understand the identities of their students. So I took those principles with me into my teaching as an educational psychology professor, but even as a vice provost, that having a sense of self awareness, a really acute sense of self awareness when you're avail when you are aware of what your own strengths and weaknesses are, and being able to bring that knowledge of yourself into your interactions with people you work with. So for instance, you know, understanding identities of the people around you and what they bring to the picture, to me, that's really, really important, and respecting those identities.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:16:22]: So, like, one of the things that I've realized through grad school into my professional career is a value of engaging with individuals who have very diverse identities and backgrounds, and seeing how those different individuals fit together. But, like, we're we are all pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that fit together to form this coherent whole. So you need faculty. You need staff. You need staff doing a lot of different things. You need administrators. I would never put any value on one of those roles more than the other because I think we're all essential pieces that need to be there to work together. Does that make sense?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:59]: It does make sense. I I really appreciate you sharing that. Now you just have given a lot of piece of advice in regards to the things that you've learned along the way. As you think about students, whether they're going and getting a master's or doctor degree in educational psychology, or if they're a physical therapy student or a medical student, it doesn't really matter in that regard. As you think about a student going into graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:17:28]: Tips for students going into graduate school or students okay. So things to think about while they're in their grad school experience. Okay. So I have a couple of things that I'm thinking of. The main thing is, perhaps cliche in some ways, but being able to step outside of your comfort zone, I think, is really important. So as I mentioned to you earlier, I've always been a creature of habit. I walked into this doctoral program not really knowing what I was getting into. There was a steep learning curve involved.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:17:56]: I went through a whole 1st year of, in some degree of emotional turmoil, wondering if I had made the right choice. Should I have gone to a psychology doctorate program instead of an educational psychology doctorate program? Did I fit in? But the one way to kind of manage that type of transition is to lean into it, step out of your comfort zone, and also expose yourself to as many different people as you can, not just having professors in classes, but actually taking time to go in and talk to people during office hours, joining groups on campus. Like, if there's a learning community, focus on a topic that's interesting to you or a book club or any other kind of extracurricular activity, just really leaning into that. Now I know it's a lot easier for me to say that I'm more extroverted by nature. I know for some people who are more introverted, it might be a little bit harder to have to be around people. You know, grad school does involve a lot of being around people, and you do need time to kinda shut down at the end of the day because there is a lot going on. But I think being exposed to people, being exposed to different perspectives, and then taking bits and pieces from what you're learning from different people to start formulating where you wanna go and what you want your future self to look like. That is an active process.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:19:10]: It is not a process that just happens passively. So you have to kinda lean into it a little bit. That would be my, probably best piece of advice. Also being patient with yourself is really important and acknowledging that transitions are not easy, and that you might take some time questioning why you made the decision that you made or wondering if you made the right decision, but taking a little bit of time to thoughtfully decide and then conclude whether that step was the right step to take. Because if I had made a rash decision, my trajectory might have changed pretty dramatically. But what I've realized over time is that transitions haven't come easy to me, and I always need to give myself at least a year to kinda grow into anything. And that still holds true for me now even as a vice provost. I feel very differently now than I did about a year ago.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:53]: And sometimes giving yourself that amount of time is hard when you're in a short program, and you have to kind of find ways to amplify that or find other mentors or people that can help you to amplify and expedite that process for yourself to be able to jump right in. And as you said, depending on the type of person that you are, sometimes that may not be as easy as it may be for other students. So I really appreciate you sharing that.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:20:22]: Could I add one quick thing also? As a young doctoral student, the other thing that, I didn't mention that is really important to mention is that some of those mentors were actually peers of mine. So they weren't just professors. They were also peers. They were peers in my program who had had a vast variety of life experience. And being able to really learn from them was very important as well. So it's not just learning from your faculty, but also learning from your peers and and valuing the different professional backgrounds that they bring to their doctoral experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:52]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, sharing your journey, sharing the things that you've learned as well as things that may have been a little bit harder than not. So I really appreciate you sharing that today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:21:06]: Thank you so much. Thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is often seen as the next big leap in one's educational and professional journey. Whether you're considering law school, a PhD, or another advanced degree, the path ahead can seem both exciting and daunting. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Kim Saks, a professor at the University of Michigan Flint, shared her personal experiences and invaluable advice for successfully navigating graduate school. Here's a comprehensive summary of her insights, from making crucial decisions to leveraging opportunities for future success.

Deciding to Take the Leap

For many students, the transition from undergraduate studies to graduate school represents a significant turning point. Dr. Saks emphasized the importance of self-reflection in this process. "You have to ask yourself why you want to pursue a graduate degree," she noted. For her, the journey began at Eastern Michigan University, where her dual interests in political science and French led her to consider both law school and a master's in public administration.

After weighing her options and considering her passion for the legal field, Dr. Saks opted for law school. "I enjoyed reading cases and synthesizing them," she explained. Importantly, financial considerations like scholarships also played a crucial role in her decision to attend the University of Detroit Mercy Law School.

Navigating the Graduate School Experience

Different graduate programs come with unique challenges. For Dr. Saks, transitioning from law school to a PhD program in political science was itself a learning curve. She highlighted two key strategies for managing these transitions: maintaining a strong support system and continuously honing academic skills like reading.

"Reading is like exercise," Dr. Saks advised, emphasizing the need to keep intellectual stamina strong. Whether it's books or long articles, maintaining a habit of reading can make the academic transition smoother.

The Importance of a Support System

One essential piece of advice that Dr. Saks offered was the importance of having a reliable support system. "Make sure you have those conversations with your support network about what to expect," she suggested. From family responsibilities to social commitments, having understanding and supportive people around you can make a significant difference.

Moreover, regular check-ins with your support network can help everyone stay on the same page. This becomes especially important when the rigors of graduate school start taking a toll, mentally or physically.

Seizing Opportunities

Graduate school is more than just coursework; it's a gateway to numerous opportunities that can shape your career. Dr. Saks urged students to take advantage of the various opportunities that come their way, including research projects, internships, and conferences. These experiences often serve as stepping stones for future professional success.

In particular, Dr. Saks emphasized the value of experiential learning. "Take risks, even if it's outside traditional academic work," she advised. Such experiences not only enrich your resume but also provide invaluable networking opportunities and practical know-how.

Conclusion: The Power of Persistence

Dr. Kim Saks' journey through law school and her subsequent PhD is a testament to the power of persistence and the benefits of a well-thought-out plan. From understanding your motivations to leveraging available opportunities, these strategies can help any aspiring graduate student navigate their path more effectively.

Remember, the journey through graduate school is a marathon, not a sprint. Equip yourself with the right tools and support systems, seize opportunities as they come, and keep your end goals in sight. The experience is demanding, but the rewards—in terms of personal and professional growth—are well worth the effort.

For those considering further education, or already embarking on this journey, Dr. Saks' advice provides a valuable roadmap. Take it to heart, and you'll not only survive but thrive in your graduate school experience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. This podcast allows for you an opportunity to be able to look under the surface, to be able to learn from other people, and to be able to learn more about what it takes to find success in graduate school. This is definitely a journey. You may just be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about graduate school. You might be post application where you're waiting on that application decision, or maybe you got your decision already, and now you know where you've been admitted to and you're making that decision of where to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: No matter where you are, this show is here to be able to help you to be able to find success and find success sooner as you go through this journey for yourself. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can walk you through what they learned along the way to help you to be able to maybe miss some of those stumbling blocks that they might have hit, but also to add some add some tools to your own toolbox that'll make it even easier for you as you go through this as well. This week, we got another great guest with us. Dr. Kimberly Sachs is with us today, and doctor Sachs is a professor at the University of Michigan Flint. She's the program director for our master's in public administration program, but also works in political science. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experience and for her to share some of that journey with you. Doctor Sachs, thanks so much for being here with us today.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:02:03]: Thank you for having me. I'm pretty excited about this. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. Well, one of the first things that I always love doing is I love turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. And as you were going through that educational journey for yourself and getting that bachelor's degree in political science and French, at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision to go to law school. And I would love to go back to that point. And I wanna kind of hear what you were thinking in your head to be able to say to yourself, I wanna take that next step. Why did you decide you wanted to take that job and go to law school?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:02:49]: So at that point in time, I kind of had 2 paths in mind. 1 was, obviously, to go to law school. The other was to go and actually get a master's public administration degree, which is kind of ironic that I direct that program now, because I knew I wanted to work in public service in some capacity. I just didn't quite know which direction I wanted to go, whether it was in the legal sector or whether it was more of an administrative type role. Ultimately, because of some coursework I had towards the end of my degree, I really felt like the legal field was right for me, And I really enjoyed reading cases, synthesizing them, and it felt it just felt like the right path for me based on some coursework and some discussions with faculty that I had. And I even had looked into joint MPA JD degrees at the time, but figured I kinda wanted to focus on the law degree and not get too turned in different directions. So I always had contemplated that there might be further education after that, but never, never kind of anticipated the path that I ended up taking. So that was the decision.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:04:00]: And then I, I took the LSAT knowing that that dual path was still open to me and did well enough and had a good enough GPA that I had opportunities to go to law school. I had a scholarship to go to University of Detroit Mercy, and so I took advantage of that and and went there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:17]: Well, that was gonna be my next question, and and maybe it was the scholarship alone. But every person goes through a process of being able to identify where that next step is. You chose to go to the University of Detroit Mercy Law School. And talk to me about that decision process for yourself and what were some of the things that you were primarily looking for, and what would the what the ultimate decision making was that led you to decide to study at the University of Detroit Mercy?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:04:46]: So the scholarship helped, but it wasn't the only thing. Because UDM is a private school, so the tuition is higher. So a scholarship will help make it more affordable, but, already, you're starting with a higher ticket price at at that point. So I did have to weigh my options, although the scholarship helped quite a bit. But one of the things that I was very, very adamant about was that the school that I picked had to be keenly invested in public service. And University of Detroit Mercy is a Jesuit school, and the Jesuit tradition is very much invested in public service. And the public sector law, they have a variety of clinics that are open to the public, and I was able to take advantage of a fellowship to work at a nonprofit over the summer where I would not have normally gotten paid, and I personally would not have been able to take that hit to do an unpaid internship, but they had a program where they paid people to go do these, I guess, it's externship at that point. And I got paid for it despite the the nonprofit not being able to pay me, but they worked out these fellowships, that they fundraise for, and this was really part of their ethos.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:05:59]: So a big part of what drew me was that they focused on these opportunities that were really grounded in public service. And so that for me was kind of a turning point in my decision making.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]: Now you went to law school, you finished law school, and you also decided after working for a number of years to continue your education, and not everybody will do that. I I've worked with a number of students that go through law school and know what they go through in law school to know that for some students, that's enough. But for you, you made a decision that you wanted to continue on into a PhD program in political science. Talk to me about that. What made you decide that it was time to go back to school after working for a number of years with your law degree?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:06:51]: So I think my mother lives in perpetual fear that I'm gonna go back to school again even now. Another room, another degree, but I don't I don't plan on it anytime soon. But I practice for a while, and I love the law. I really do. I I teach classes on the law. My legal education is very much being used in what I do on a day to day basis. I practice for a while in a private firm. I did not like the act of billing my time.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:07:17]: That is not something that I am very good at. It's not necessarily time management. It's literally keeping track of what I've done. It just didn't suit me very well. So I went to work in house at Wayne State in their Office of Equal Opportunity, and I went from a very high pressure environment to a fairly, for me, low pressure environment. And I started getting a little antsy. And I knew that I had always wanted to teach, and I thought that would just be down the road, like, as a kind of one off adjunct experience. But I said, you know, I'm here now.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:07:52]: I can take classes for free up to a certain level per semester or per year. Why don't I test this out and see how it goes? And if I end up stopping out at a master's, so be it. You know? So I started doing it, and I absolutely loved it. And because I had the JD at the time, I was still able to adjunct elsewhere because that's a terminal degree, and so I could be hired out elsewhere and teach. And I absolutely fell in love with teaching. And I knew at that point that this was the path that I wanted to go down. I also subsequently fell in love with research too, and really love the idea of being able to explore questions using data and using experiments and things of that nature in ways that you don't get to do until you're at that level and being able to direct your own research. And so I really enjoyed it.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:08:47]: And and one of my favorite things about what I do now is trying to bring those experiences to my students, whether they're master students or undergraduate students, to get them involved in that process so that they understand what research is like and what each step of the process might look like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:04]: Now in every transition that you go through, whether it be from undergraduate to law school or undergraduate to another type of graduate degree, whatever it may be, there are transitions that you go through. And from one level of education to the next level of education is very different than one another. Going from bachelor's to law school is a completely different type of learning. Going from law school to a PhD, Different type of learning. And there's different expectations from your faculty, and there's different expectations from what you are hoping to take out of those experiences and that and the end goals as well. Now you were successful in going through law school, getting your doctorate degree, continuing on. As you think back to those transitions that you went through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experiences?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:10:03]: So the first thing I will say is make sure you have a support system around you. The same could be said of life in general, but when you're going to take on these new endeavors, make sure others are on board with what they're gonna need to do to support you. And that just means having a conversation about what things are gonna look like moving forward. Because whether it's friends or family, you might not be able to do certain things that you were able to do before as frequently, or you might need their help in something. Especially if you have kids or other responsibilities, you might need people to step in. And so having those conversations and revisiting those conversations, not just thinking you can have them, you know, a week before school starts and then that's it, you're good for the rest of your time in whatever program you're in, kind of making it a point to check-in on those conversations is really good. I will also say every transition I have ever made like this, a big transition, I have always had that moment of, I jump in and I get ready, and then I'm like, oh my god. What did I just do? What did I just get myself in to? I have a little bit of a freak out moment.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:11:09]: And I tell all of my MPA students, this especially, because they're gonna have a moment when they're like, what did I get myself into? And I tell them, I'll come find me because we'll walk through it together. We'll sit through it. We'll figure out, you know, if there's a real issue or if you're just kind of having a culture shock because a lot of times, that's what it is. It's a culture shock. I distinctly remember having one when I started law school. I had one during my law school orientation, and then I had one when I went to grad school. And I remember, my first class, all of a sudden, everybody seemed to understand the statistics right away that were in this one article. And I thought, oh my god.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:11:45]: Am I going to have to know this right off the bat? Because I don't. And I just was like, I must be the dumbest person in this room. And, of course, I wasn't. It was just I hadn't taken the same classes that these other people had taken yet, but I had to put that into perspective. And sometimes you need to have those perspective moments where you're like, okay. It's just me kind of getting my grounding. I need to take a breath. I need to really see my way through this because most of the time, it's just the culture shock of getting into a new thing.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:12:15]: And with my students, a lot of times, we'll sit down in that 1st semester, in that 1st year, and by the time they've graduated, they're like, I you told me I was gonna have that moment. I had it. I got over it. And then I went on and it became like secondhand to me, and it was smooth sailing from there out. And most of the time, it's that culture shock moment where you're like, how am I going to do all of this? I hate the metaphor so much, but it is like learning to ride a bike because you do learn to put it and fit it into your life in a different way. Your life will change just the way you live your life, your daily mechanics of things, because you have to fit things in in a different way. And that's gonna look different from your undergrad to your grad, or for me, even from law school to grad school, when I fit in my reading and my writing time was completely different, especially once I had kids in grad school. So, you know, having to figure out those quiet times was completely different post kids.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:13:11]: So you have to kind of figure out how it fits into your life, and then you'll kind of calm down a bit and focus on the work and not so much how it works in your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:20]: You know, those are great points because I think you're completely right. You do change as you go through graduate school. And I love the point that you made in regard to checking back in with your support system because many times, your support system has no clue what you're going through, and they don't know how to support you. So if you don't reach out to them and let them know what you're going through and let them know what kind of support that you need, they're not going to be able to give it to you. So it is so important, as doctor Sacks just said, to have conversations upfront about what you anticipate, but also let people understand the reality of the situation once you get into your graduate program and you start to see what that reality is, whether it's hitting that wall right at the law school orientation where you're looking at stats, and you're saying, I have no clue what I'm getting myself into, versus getting into those first couple classes where you might be called on, and you're having to stand up, and and you're having to be an expert in your own right about what you've just read. Unless the people around you, the support people, have gone through the same type of degree, they're not going to understand it. And even if they went through it, it's not the same situation. It may not be the same school, and it's definitely probably not the same professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:48]: So that meaning being said, keep the conversation going. Don't ice people out. Let people back in. Let people know what you're going through. They're going to appreciate it, and you're gonna appreciate it in the end. Doctor. Sacks, as you mentioned, you're a professor now at the University of Michigan Flint, and you work with students not only in the master of public administration program, but you're working with undergraduate students too. And I guess as you look back at your own experiences, but also as you're working with graduate students or students that are looking at possibly going to graduate school in the future, what are some tips that you might offer to other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be for law school or a PhD or something completely different that could help them find success sooner?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:15:36]: So one of the things I will say is keep reading because reading really is like exercise. If you stop doing it at any point in time, it's gonna be harder to build back up. And no matter what graduate program you go into, it does not matter. You're going to be reading a lot. And so if you're trying to go from 0 to a100 your 1st day of classes or your 1st week of classes, that's gonna be really hard. So I don't care what you read. It should be books or long form articles or those types of things, but read. Keep that stamina up for reading and really make sure that you're not putting yourself in a position where you're both having to adjust to a new program and adjust to back to that skill at the same time.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:16:19]: But also kind of understand what it is you wanna get out of a degree. I also am the pre law adviser for the University of Michigan Flint, and a lot of times students come to me and say, I wanna go to law school. And when I ask why, which is always my my second question, they don't have the answer for it. They've either been told they should, or they've been given answers they see on the media. But you really need to ask your why early and often because it may change. But think about the why and what you expect to get out of it and keep that really burning bright in the background while you're doing the work for a couple of reasons. One is when things are tough, you're gonna look at that and be like, okay. That's the goal.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:17:01]: But the other thing that will help you do is not miss out on opportunities along the way. You know, whether your program's entirely online or whether it's in person or a mix of both, there are going to be opportunities that come your way that are outside of the traditional class experience, and you should take advantage of those. One of the things that I find students often regretting is not doing something. Right? Not doing this or not doing that or not taking advantage of this. I think that students who find themselves taking advantage of some of the opportunities that they have, whether it's at the undergraduate or graduate level, find their experiences much more meaningful, and also find their degree to feel more valuable in that sense. So in our program, we have a lot of people who will end up doing independent studies so that they can work on projects with a nonprofit or another organization that are kind of focused projects that are kind of part academic, part practical. And students who do that type of thing, it might be different. It's kind of out of the norm.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:18:08]: And so it's, it's taking a little bit of risk, But quite often, those are the things that change a career trajectory. Right? Those are the things that give you experience, create a portfolio piece, and give you a lot of networking. And so it's risk, but it's also a lot of reward. And even if nothing concretely comes out of it, like a job offer or something, you have this experience now that when you're on a job interview for the next thing coming down the pipe, you now can say, I've done x, y, or z, and here's the proof of that. Here's what I've done. Here's what I experienced. Here are the challenges I faced. Here are the resource constraints, and that's invaluable to have.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:18:49]: So take advantage of those things. Go to conferences. There's a lot of conferences on any campus that are available to students. Usually, they're they're low cost or free if you can participate in that. I know we have a research conference here on campus every year. So put something together for the research conference, put it on a poster, or do a presentation. It is a great experience to have. It's really something good to have on your resume, but it's also just the experience of doing it is something really important to have kind of in your in your tool belt as you move forward in your career.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:19:23]: No matter what it is, you're always going to have to be presenting. You're always going to have to be reading, and you're always gonna have to be writing at some level. And so working on those skills, honing those skills in different capacities is going to be important as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:38]: You know, I always tell graduate students that as you go through this graduate school experience, you're only there for a limited amount of time. It may seem like it is a huge amount of time as you're stepping into that first class. But by the end, you're gonna look back and say, where did it go? It went by so fast. And the most important thing that I tend to tell every graduate student is, say yes more than you say no. Take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. Don't wait and say, I'll wait for the next one. Because the next one might not come. So if you have a professor like Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Sacks, that's offering you an opportunity to do research, or someone that comes to you and says, I have an opportunity for you to volunteer or to do an internship or to get this type of experience, Take advantage of that because all of those things that you're going to be doing along the way are going to build upon each other and are going to give you the skills, the knowledge, and more that are gonna help you to be the professional that you want to become in the future. Well, doctor Sacks, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for being here, and for working with all of our undergraduate and graduate students here at the University of Michigan Flint as they are working to create the next step for themselves. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:21:07]: Thank you for helping me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a unique journey that demands both resilience and strategic planning. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School" podcast, Michelle Gordon-Releford shared her personal experiences and insights on how to navigate the complexities of graduate education successfully. As a double master's degree holder from the University of Michigan Flint, Michelle's journey offers invaluable lessons for prospective and current graduate students alike.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Michelle's decision to pursue graduate education was influenced by a promise to a sorority sister who emphasized the importance of advanced degrees for career prospects. Initially uncertain about pursuing further education, Michelle finally decided that obtaining a graduate degree was the next logical step. This decision demonstrates the importance of mentorship and peer advice in shaping academic and career paths.

Choosing the Right Program and Institution

For Michelle, choosing the University of Michigan Flint was driven by practical considerations and the availability of strong support systems. She highlighted the importance of familial and community support while pursuing higher education. When selecting a graduate program, Michelle emphasized the need to research various programs and consider how they align with your career goals. Her pivot from psychology to health science education was motivated by her passion for community involvement and making tangible impacts.

Transitioning to Graduate School

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school poses unique challenges. Michelle stressed the importance of finding a "graduate school family" to help navigate these hurdles. Building a support system among your peers can provide both emotional and academic support. She recounted her own experiences of juggling graduate studies while managing her husband's cancer treatment, emphasizing the invaluable role her classmates and professors played in her success.

Building Relationships

One of the critical pieces of advice Michelle offered was to cultivate strong relationships with faculty members and peers. These relationships not only provide immediate support but can also turn into professional networks that benefit you long after graduation. Faculty members can become mentors and advisors, offering guidance and opportunities that you might not otherwise encounter.

Applying Graduate Education in the Professional World

Michelle's diverse career experiences—as a community outreach manager and in other roles—showcase how a graduate degree can be applied in various professional contexts. Courses and experiences in her graduate program heightened her awareness about community disparities and prepared her to address these issues effectively. Her degree gave her the skills to conduct meaningful community engagement and to be an advocate for equity.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

Michelle concluded with actionable tips for prospective graduate students. She emphasized the importance of utilizing campus resources, particularly building a relationship with the library staff. Michelle also stressed the significance of maintaining open communication with family, friends, and professors. Their support can help alleviate some of the pressures of graduate school.

Michelle Gordon-Releford's journey underscores the multifaceted nature of graduate education. It involves not just academic efforts but also emotional resilience and strong support systems. Her insights provide a roadmap for anyone contemplating or currently on the path to obtaining a graduate degree. By focusing on relationships, leveraging resources, and staying committed to your goals, you, too, can successfully navigate the challenges of graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, this show is here to help you on this journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. You could be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about, maybe I want to do this grad school thing. Or you might be a little bit further along where you've applied and you're waiting for that answer. Or you applied and you found out that you were accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Congratulations. No matter where you are, whether you're currently in a program, you're preparing for a program, or you're just starting to think about it, the show is here to give you some some tips, some hints, some tools for your toolbox to help you to find success in that journey. And there are things that you can do right away to be able to start thinking about that. It's just to start to prepare for that and to put things in place that will help you along the way to find and maintain that success as you go along. And that's why this show is here. Every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that come from different walks of life that have gone through this process themselves, and they can share with you some of the things that they've learned along the way that have helped them to find success. Today, we got another great guest. Michelle Gordon Relleford is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: And Michelle did her undergraduate work at Wright State University, but then decided to go and get a master's degree from the University of Michigan Flint, a master of health education, and also ended up getting a master's degree in health services, allied health, health sciences, and ended up getting both of these along the way. So we're gonna talk about that experience, the journey that she went on and what she learned along the way. So I'm really excited to have her here. Michelle, thanks so much for being here today.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:02:15]: Oh, no problem. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: Well, you know, it's my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you about this experience that you went through. So I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock back. I know I mentioned to you that you I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at Wright State University. You got a bachelor's degree in psychology. And then at some point, probably during that undergraduate time, you decided to your for yourself that you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to go on to get that master's degree that I was mentioning. Talk to me about bring me back to that point in time and talk to me about what was going through your head that made you decide that getting a graduate degree was the next right step.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:03:03]: Okay. Well, it's actually a funny story, probably not even believable. At Wright State, I had a sorority sister who was in the psychology program, and she's like, are you gonna go get your PsyD? And I was like, no. I think I'm done. And she said, you're not gonna be able to get a job without this graduate degree. Promise me that you will get a graduate degree. And I would I didn't say anything. She said promise.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:03:25]: And I said, okay. I promise. So people who know me is they know that I never break a promise to someone else. I will break them to myself, but I will never break them to someone else. So she broke me in, and she was right. I she knew me better at the time than I knew myself. And so I ended up coming back to Flint to get that degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:46]: So talk to me about that decision process because you did end up deciding to come to the University of Michigan Flint to get that degree and to be able to and there's lots of different places out there. I know you're originally from here in Flint, so maybe that was one of the big factors. But but talk to me about what was going through your head as you were looking at different graduate programs that made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the ultimate right place for you for this degree itself?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:04:16]: Okay. So Flint, my mother was still there. So my support was right there and the opportunity to come back and be around her more often. My future husband was there, so it was conversations with him and his mother is there. So I had the strong support system outside of the University of Michigan Flint that was saying you could come back and we'll help you a lot. And so that that was major for me. Not to mention that Flint was my home. I already knew what I'd be getting back into.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:04:47]: Knew a couple of people there who were gonna be at the U of M Flint, getting their degrees alongside me. So that was big for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:54]: And you did your undergraduate work in psychology and then decided to apply for a master's in health science education. So talk to me about that because you like you said, your sorority sister asked you about a PsyD. A PsyD is very different than going from a bachelor's in psychology to health science education. So talk to me about what made you decide that that was the right program for you.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:05:20]: Okay. Well, researched lots of programs and what those degrees would mean for me. And it all boiled down to I like community involvement. I like to feel like I'm giving back, and I also like to see what happens when I give back. So to get a degree in health science that that was it if I could do I could do the grant work. I can write the programs. I could talk to people in communities and find out what they needed or they wanted or how they felt about things. And then have those letters to validate that I can do it was amazing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:58]: So anytime that you go into a graduate program, there is a transition. You went from transitioning from being at a small institution in Ohio into moving back to Michigan. You transitioned into from undergraduate to a graduate degree in an area that was different than your undergraduate degree. So every like I said, every person goes through transitions and a transition to be able to be able to be successful. So talk to me about what did you have to do for yourself to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school, and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:06:40]: For both of those, I would say I had to find my graduate school family. You know? In undergrad, you find those friends that you're gonna have forever, and I did. But I also had to find them in grad school. Those are the people that are when you are up at 1 in the morning and you're studying, they're gonna say you got this. Or go to bed if that's the case. They're gonna say, okay. Well, I'll take the notes. You get some rest because you did blah blah blah, or I'll help out with family.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:07:07]: I found my family in grad school to help support me. And there's a lot I don't know how much time we have, but there's a lot that goes into what I'm saying about that. Because during grad school, we found out my husband had cancer. And so even my professors became a lot of family, and they would say, well, attendance is not your priority, but you make sure you have all the work done. So even before COVID, sometimes I was working remotely and checking in with my professor because I had to get my husband to chemo or had to get him to his radiation. And my professor would be, yep. That's more important because I still got an a out of the class, and it's not because they gave me a grade. I worked for it, but they were supportive.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:07:54]: And they said, okay. If there's something you don't understand, I'll make some extra hours for you to talk about it. Or doctor Parker would always say, and how does that make you feel? So I had support system in my family right there in grad school. And without them, I honestly could say that I never would have been able to achieve what I achieved. And not to mention my husband was saying, oh, no. You're gonna finish because I'm not gonna be the reason you missed out on this great opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: You know, it's so important to be able to find that family. And that's one thing that's kind of unique about graduate school is the fact that every person that's in that program with you is interested in the same thing. They're there for different reasons, potentially, But they all have a passion for that. Or they should have a passion for that if they're going to be spending the time, money, and effort to be able to go into that program itself. So being able to connect and to meet with and to be able to allow for yourself the ability to connect with others is going to help you as a student. And when I say connect with others, I am really referring to the fact that you wanna be able to connect with students, but also with faculty and build those strong relationships just like you hopefully were able to build strong relationships in your undergraduate experience as well. Because these people are people that you will draw from, work with, be able to connect back with, and that you can network with, and they will open up their doors down in the future.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:09:26]: Oh, yeah. It was wonderful. And sometimes I was so exhausted. It'd be the start of a new class. And, basically, we were moving in cohorts. And I'd look around, and they say, Michelle, you're in the masters of health science education program and blah blah blah. And the the professor would look at, oh, I've never seen it. I was like, yep.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:09:43]: This is my support group. They help me. It's the little things might slip by me because I'm my mind is on autopilot or something because I have a lot going on. But those are the things they would do, and it did mean a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:56]: Now you've been out of your graduate degree for a number of years now and been working. And I know right now you're working for a think tank as a community outreach manager, but you've also done other things in your career too. So talk to me about how do you find that what you learned in your graduate degree prepared you for the work that you have done and the work that you are doing on a day to day basis?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:10:19]: You're right. I've done a lot of things, but I'd say 90% of it was talking to community youth in the community or teaching them something. How did my degree help me prepare for that? The first thing that comes to mind is we did a Flint tour of grocery stores in different communities, and it was to highlight the differences of what's happening in one community that doesn't have as much money as another community. And I grew up in Flint, and we didn't grow up with the most money. But it brought things to light that, wow, if I go down the street and around the corner, the grocery store is better. Why is it that their grocery store gets to be different from my grocery store? And these were things that my degree highlighted, and it also said that, okay. So now what are you gonna do to make a difference? How are you gonna work with communities and populations to even the playing field? Well, just can't even them, but give them what they need at the time that they need it. So the degree I got from U of M Flint taught me a lot about equity, and I use it often.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:11:21]: It taught me a lot about how different people do different things and how, sometimes the person at the the president at the top of the university might not understand what's happening right at the level of the people in the community. And sometimes you have to be a voice. So my degree, it did a lot because it was a hands on experience. It was working with other students coming from different backgrounds. It still helps me to this day because even now I go out into communities and I talk to political leaders. I talk to nonprofit organizations, non governmental organizations, and that degree helped me with a lot of that. Because to be honest, I'm an introvert. So doing that without those tools would stress me out even more than, going in with what I have.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:12:08]: I know I can do the things that I do, and I know that I'm good at it. And it's because I walked through getting that degree, and it it arms me with what I need to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:18]: Now as you think about other individuals, people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in an area of public health to an area like physical therapy or business or whatever it might be. And you think back to the experiences that you had as a graduate student. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:12:40]: I would say, get to know the librarian. First name faces. I almost wanna say live there. Develop a relationship with your professors that you will often well, I found because it took me a long time to get out of that fear that they're different sitting on Mount Olympus, and I'm sitting down here in Athens or something. So get to know them and you realize it's common ground. There's still people and you might have differences of opinion, but they are human. And that will help you get the support you need. Talk to your family.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:13:13]: Oh my goodness. Yes. Talk to your family. You would find you probably have more support than what you think you did. Parents of teenagers, talk to those teenagers that this is something you wanna do. You'd be surprised at how many more times they'll do the dishes. So talk to your spouse because then you get those great oh, you don't have to cook darling or I'll cook darling nights and or pieces magically showing up at the door because you have a paper coming up. So communicate with your support system, with your team because they have your back.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:13:44]: And I couldn't have did it without my tribe or my team or whatever you wanna call them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:48]: Well, Michelle, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. Thank you for being willing to offer these resources in some of the things that you learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best. Thank you. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].