Victors in Grad School

Graduate school is more than just an extension of your undergraduate education. It's an intricate journey that demands dedication, strategic planning, and a deep understanding of one's personal and professional goals. In a recent episode of the "Victor's in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Caroline Rathbun, a communication and digital marketing specialist, to discuss her path from undergraduate studies to a successful career in digital marketing. Caroline's story is both inspiring and enlightening for anyone considering or currently navigating through graduate school.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate School

Caroline's journey began with an undergraduate degree in design and visual communications from the University of Michigan Flint. Like many graduates, she was in the process of figuring out her career aspirations. While she appreciated her field, she realized that graphic design alone didn't fulfill her professional ambitions.

This epiphany led Caroline to leave her first job and venture into freelancing, allowing her to explore different facets of the communication field. It was through freelancing, especially her projects with prominent organizations in Flint, that she discovered her passion for digital marketing and social media management. Recognizing the shift from traditional to digital media, she decided it was time to pursue a master's degree in strategic communications to advance her career.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Selecting a graduate program is a pivotal step. Caroline's decision to enroll in Michigan State University's strategic communications master's program was influenced by several factors. She conducted thorough research, prioritizing programs that offered a robust curriculum and flexibility. Michigan State's online program stood out for its reputation and comprehensive course offerings, and it also allowed her to manage her studies alongside her professional responsibilities.

Caroline emphasized the importance of aligning the program with one's learning styles and personal commitments. She recognized that an online program suited her better due to her tendency to lose focus in traditional classroom settings. The flexibility to learn at her own pace was a game-changer.

Transitioning to Graduate School

The transition to graduate school can be daunting. However, Caroline found that having a clear goal and purpose made the shift smoother. She approached graduate school with a focused mindset, aware of the sacrifices she would need to make, such as setting aside dedicated study time and balancing work and studies.

Caroline stresses the importance of self-awareness in understanding one's learning and research methods. For her, project-based work was more effective than rote memorization and testing. This self-understanding helped her choose a program that matched her strengths, thereby enhancing her chances of success.

Maximizing the Graduate School Experience

Engagement and intentionality were key factors in Caroline's success. Despite the online nature of her program, she made it a point to stay connected and engaged with her coursework and classmates. She approached discussion boards with genuine interest, contributing meaningfully rather than merely fulfilling requirements.

Throughout her graduate journey, Caroline was proactive in applying her learning to real-world situations. For instance, a course on crisis communication proved invaluable when she found herself implementing a crisis communication plan during the COVID-19 pandemic at Kettering University.

Graduate School's Impact on Career

Caroline's graduate education significantly impacted her career path. The skills she acquired, especially in strategic communication and digital marketing, were directly applicable to her roles post-graduation. Her current position at the University of Michigan Flint involves mass communication, digital signage, and strategic engagement with the campus community—tasks that her master's program prepared her for.

Courses she once questioned—like crisis communication—became unexpectedly relevant, showcasing the importance of a diverse and comprehensive curriculum.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

For those considering graduate school, Caroline offers valuable advice: start by deeply understanding yourself. Recognize your study preferences, professional goals, and life circumstances. Choose a program that aligns with your strengths and accommodates your lifestyle.

Planning is crucial. Envision the next few years of your life and anticipate potential challenges. Graduate school often coincides with significant life events, so being prepared can help manage unexpected hurdles and keep you on track to achieve your academic and professional goals.

Caroline Rathbun's journey from an undergraduate student uncertain about her career path to a successful digital marketing specialist is a testament to the transformative power of graduate education. Her story underscores the importance of self-awareness, strategic planning, and proactive engagement in achieving success in graduate school. For anyone considering this path, Caroline's insights provide a valuable roadmap to navigate the complexities of advanced education and emerge victorious in your professional endeavors.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I are on a journey together. This journey is all about the graduate school hopes, dreams that you have for yourself and the things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey. And I say journey because it is a journey. Every one of you is on a journey that is very unique to who you are, and it's so important to understand that it is going to be different for every person. However, there are things that you can do right now, whether you're in graduate school or not, to be able to set yourself up for success and to do things even while you're in graduate school to find even greater success, to help you to be able to take the most out of that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:11]: That's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is about helping you to be able to find success in this journey. And that's why every week, I bring you different people with different experiences that have done different things, but they've all done one thing that is similar. They all went to graduate school. Now, the graduate school journey that they were on is gonna be different than the one that you're on, but they still had to do things to find success in their own journey. And so I hope that in all of these conversations that we have, you've got some paper out, you've got your pen out, you've got some some you've got your listening ears open to be able to help you to take some tools for your toolbox and be able to prepare you well. Today, we got another great guest with us. Caroline Rathbun is with us today, and Caroline is the communication and digital marketing specialist for the division of student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, and she has her own journey of doing her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, but then leaving and going to Michigan State University for a master's degree in strategic communications.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: We're gonna talk about that journey today, and I'm really excited to have her here. Caroline, thanks so much for being here.

Caroline Rathbun [00:02:29]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about this. It's a fun opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:33]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I guess first and foremost, I wanna go back in time. I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and you did that undergraduate degree in design and visual communications.

Caroline Rathbun [00:02:49]: Correct. Yep.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: And then you went off, you did some work. And during that work life, you you started to get those professional experiences. But sometime in the first few years, you got the inkling that you wanted to do something a little bit different. You wanted to go a little bit further, and you wanted to go to graduate school. So bring me back to that point. What made you decide that you wanted to go to grad school?

Caroline Rathbun [00:03:14]: Yeah. So, I mean, after my time at U of M Flint, I still felt like I was still kind of in that figuring it out phase. I had attained my degree. I was ecstatic about that. I honestly never thought I was a person that was gonna go beyond maybe even an associate's degree. So the fact that I had earned a bachelor's degree was, it was big for me. So after a couple years just kind of out in the workforce, I realized pretty quickly that I didn't wanna exclusively do graphic design. As much as I loved the field and the design aspect of it, I just I wanted more.

Caroline Rathbun [00:03:42]: I wanted to use my brand in a different way than just design. So I left my first job out of college, and I set out on my own as a freelancer. And I had a great opportunity to work for some really awesome business and organizations in Flint. I got to do some freelance work for the Krim Fitness Foundation, Redwood Restaurant Management Group, Sky Point Ventures, a lot of different groups. And during that time, I did some graphic design work, but that's kind of what introduced me into some more of the digital marketing side of things, the social media management, and just a little bit more into the communications field. So that's really what kind of sparked that interest and understanding that I think in order for me to get to that next level, I wanted to find a program that was really kind of on the cutting edge in the beginning of this transformation we were seeing from your traditional print media marketing to the digital side. So looking into programs, I found that Michigan State had, the strategic communications master's program, and I grew up a Michigan State fan, so that was kind of a plus. But also Michigan State has a really great reputation for their communications fields and degrees, so that was a huge selling point.

Caroline Rathbun [00:04:45]: And it was fully online. So I knew at that time I was gonna be going back into a full time job after kind of doing some freelancing for a while. So I wanted something that allowed me to have some flexibility to be able to go at my own pace with earning this master's while I was still trying to figure out a lot of my early career goals and ambitions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:02]: So you you talked about the fact that you did a little bit of research, and you were trying to find a program that had specific aspects to it, and you found that Michigan State was that program for yourself. Bring me back to that point of the research that you were doing. What were you looking for in a program, and what were some of the linchpins? And you kinda talked a little bit about this already, but what were some of those linchpins that made Michigan State outweigh other schools? And what were some of the other things that you were considering when you were looking at programs side by side? Unless it was just one program that you ended up saying it was it's only this program.

Caroline Rathbun [00:05:39]: Yeah. It kind of ended up being the one program, but it was more so that it was kind of the timing of it. I while I was a little bit impulsive to do to apply for grad school, I applied pretty late in the application process, but because it was a newer program, they were happy to accept me kind of later on in the stage. I looked into some other programs a little bit once I kind of understood that was the area I wanted to focus in. But this one really just had, I think, the most robust offerings. And with it being an online program, that was just a huge thing for me because I knew I wasn't gonna have the time to be going into classes. And whether that be commuting to another school or if I was still staying local, finding somewhere nearby that offered what I was looking for fully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: Now making a transition into graduate school is always a transition, and it's challenging in its own way because you're going from the way in which you've been educated as an undergraduate student and the expectations in graduate school are different and sometimes much more challenging, and faculty are going to expect more of you in many different ways. So talk to me about that transition because you were able to find success in going through graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school program?

Caroline Rathbun [00:07:00]: Yeah. I think going into graduate school versus starting your undergraduate, it's just a completely different mindset, at least that I went into it with because like I said before, I was very unclear on what I wanted to do for a long time. You know, I started off at Mott Community College, transferred over to U of M Flint. And at that time, I was just just figuring out a lot of who I was even as a person. And by the time I made it to that grad school stage, for me, it was the shift that like this was for me in my goals. What, you know, I was able to be in more of a focus program that was meeting the the goals that I had as a professional and learning the things that I wanted to learn. So I think that helped a lot and just reframing my mindset because I think a lot of times in undergrad, you have to take a lot of classes that may not interest you or there's more distractions just socially and things like that. So that was a big thing too.

Caroline Rathbun [00:07:45]: It's just shifting my mindset to understanding the sacrifices I would have to make as a graduate student, knowing I'd have to set aside dedicated time to work on this, to focus on this. And and that was another thing. I just know that I was more successful in my undergrad when I had online classes than I did in person because I would tend to not want to always attend my classes regularly. So that was another big thing for me was just knowing that I could do it at my own pace. I could set kind of my own class schedule, and I think that's important for people when they're looking into a program to understand that that about myself. I know even throughout a program through a longer semester, I was diagnosed at a young age with ADHD. I tend to lose focus, lose intention, get distracted. So it was just a lot of work for me to remember to maintain that and why I was doing that and bringing myself back to it.

Caroline Rathbun [00:08:31]: You know, I'm taking out these loans. I'm gonna have to pay them back. I need to make sure I'm making that worth it worth the time, and I'm getting the most out of this experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:39]: So you talked about taking the most out of this experience. Talk to me about what you did during graduate school to do just that.

Caroline Rathbun [00:08:46]: Yeah. I really, I really tried to make note. It being online, you're not gonna have the same experience as an in person where you're gonna be talking to people in classes or just seeing people around the hallway. But I wanted to make sure that I still felt some connection towards the school and towards the university. So just trying to make sure I was very engaged in my classes. A lot of times online, you have to do your typical standard question boards, you would talk to 2 people, not just going in and doing it just to go through the motions, but trying to be very intentional and mindful just about my approach in the classes and how I communicated with people. And even with the classes that may not have been a peak interest to me, just trying to understand that there is a reason that they want me to take the class. There's a reason that I'm here.

Caroline Rathbun [00:09:27]: I am going to try to it may not be the one that interests me the most, but I'm going to engage with it and try to to understand why it's something that I should be learning throughout my grad school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:37]: Now you did finish up your degree, and you went off back into the workforce and now you're here at the University of Michigan Flint in a new role. And I guess as you look back to your graduate school experience and you think about the work that you're doing on a daily basis, how do you feel that your graduate degree helped prepare you not only for the work you're doing right today, but the work you've been doing since graduate school?

Caroline Rathbun [00:09:59]: I think I look at so much of the stuff I learned during that time and I apply it on a daily basis. I'm communicating out to the campus on a mass level. I'm sending out email communications and putting things out on our digital signage. So that's a big part of it is understanding the brand voice, making sure I'm aligning with the brand standards of the university, and just understanding my audience and the target audience that I'm trying to get to and reach to. So that's a big thing. You know, I've only been in this role for about 2 months now. But just trying to bring a lot of the strategy side to it and the intentional side of using the information we can collect, whether it's data points from how students are communicating, engaging with our material, or just seeing how students are around campus, understanding what their needs are. And a lot of that in my master's program was just really trying to use data and research in areas like that to better understand what your audience needs.

Caroline Rathbun [00:10:49]: And so when we're communicating or marketing to them, we are making sure our message is being heard, and it's being heard to the right people. So I use a lot in a day to day basis. And even beyond that, you know, like I was saying, one of the classes that I took during my master's was crisis communication. And at the time, I didn't really I was like, I don't really understand why I need to take this. I'm not gonna be in a crisis communication type team. Lo and behold, right when I'm about to graduate, COVID happens. I'm working at Kettering University on their communications and marketing team, and we had to implement crisis communication plan on a whim. And thankfully, I had that knowledge from my program that helped me to be able to build the foundation of everything that we needed to put out throughout campus while we were dealing with everything that was unfolding with the pandemic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:30]: Now, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals, other people that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those students that might help them to find success sooner?

Caroline Rathbun [00:11:45]: I think it starts while you're in your undergrad. If that's something you are remotely considering, really trying to take that time to understand yourself. Understand your study methods, your learning mess methods, your research methods, because that's really what will set you up for success once you move to graduate school. And also understanding, you know, I have a different learning style than most people. I am a very visual learner, and I knew that if I was to go into a program where it was gonna be a lot of memorizing text and repeating literature and things like that, I would I probably wouldn't find the same excess success. I I succeeded more based on project work rather than research and testing. So I think understanding, you know, where you are as a person with your academic journey and just, you know, what those goals are too, and what your life may look like once you enter into grad school. Because a lot of times when you're entering into grad school, you're working full time, you might be starting a family, getting married, moving across the country.

Caroline Rathbun [00:12:40]: You know, there's so many different things that can happen during that time. So just trying to look into it and plan out those next few years as best you can so that there aren't a lot of unexpected surprises that can derail your journey and get you through to the finish line because that's the ultimate goal is to, you know, be able to walk across that stage and get that diploma.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]: Well, Caroline, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing what you had to go through and and how it's impacted you in in what you're doing on a regular basis. And I truly wish you all the best.

Caroline Rathbun [00:13:10]: Thank you. And I'm I'm really happy to be here and happy to be back working for the university. Or if there's any students listening to that, just do what you can to get involved. My time here was some of the best years and most transformative years of my life. So it's truly an opportunity to get involved with this campus, with this community, and find yourself, find your place, and that's really will help you successful in your journey beyond your undergraduate, whether it's just a career or if you're looking to get into grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Transitioning from one career path to another is never simple, but for some, it can lead to opportunities that were never originally envisioned. Dan Command, also known as Dan C. Bearded, a middle school teacher turned YouTube content creator and keynote speaker, personifies the winding journey of career transformation aided by graduate education. This blog post dives deep into the enriching conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dan C. Bearded, exploring the roles of education, passion, and unexpected avenues in finding success.

The Initial Leap: Choosing Graduate School

From Classroom to Administration

Dan started his educational journey by earning an undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan Flint. He began his career as a middle school teacher and quickly became known for his effectiveness, which led to several leadership roles within his school. His exemplary performance prompted his administration to encourage him to pursue a path in school administration, including becoming a principal.

Deciding on a Program

Catering to his full-time teaching schedule and family life, Dan chose a master's program at the University of Phoenix due to its flexible, hybrid model. This allowed him to pair online coursework with one-on-one mentorship within his community. The arrangement was a perfect fit for his hectic lifestyle, encompassing work, coaching, and family responsibilities.

Navigating Graduate School: Tips for Success

Making the Transition

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school required Dan to adjust several aspects of his life. For Dan, this meant honing his organizational skills and becoming relentless about meeting deadlines. The independence and focus required in graduate school were a stark contrast from his undergraduate experience, which involved much collaboration with a core group of friends. He stresses that the key to his success was his commitment to his goals and his ability to remain disciplined despite his packed schedule.

Choosing the Right Specialization

Dan's first master's degree focused on administration. However, upon completing his coursework and observing the day-to-day realities of administrative roles through shadowing, he realized that it was not where his true passion lay. Instead, he pursued a second master's degree in curriculum development, aligning more closely with his interest in educational engagement and helping teachers better reach students.

Embracing Unforeseen Opportunities

The Birth of a YouTube Channel

Dan's commitment to education and his knack for engaging with people led him to start a YouTube channel centered around an entirely unrelated topic: beard care. This alternate pathway began to gain traction, eventually leading him to take a hard look at his professional options. Recognizing the rising success of his YouTube channel, Dan faced a critical decision whether to continue in his traditional career path or fully embrace this unique opportunity.

Leveraging Educational Skills in a New Domain

Surprisingly, Dan found that the skills he developed during his graduate education were incredibly transferable to his new line of work. His curriculum development master's degree proved invaluable as he created unique content about beard care techniques, which later became pivotal when training barbers at expos. The organizational and administrative skills he gained helped him manage the logistics and inevitable challenges that came with a growing online presence and business venture.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Prioritize Passion

Dan strongly believes that education is never wasted. He advises prospective students to find their passion and choose programs that align with their natural strengths. According to Dan, "Following passion fuels success," and he encourages others to be open to unexpected turns that their paths may take.

Flexibility and Adaptation

Choosing the right program that fits individual schedules and learning styles is crucial. For Dan, this meant selecting a hybrid program that allowed him to balance his multiple responsibilities. He emphasizes that being adaptable and having a focused, relentless approach toward meeting educational goals played a vital role in his journey.

The Value of Education

In Dan's words, nobody regrets their education. Whether you stick to your initial career path or pivot to a completely new direction, the skills and knowledge gained through graduate education are irreplaceable assets that support lifelong success.

Conclusion: The Ever-Lasting Impact of Education

Dan C. Bearded's story illuminates the life-changing power of education, even when it paves the way to unexpected destinations. Graduate school equipped Dan with the skills and credentials that have helped him thrive in various avenues, from middle school classrooms to barbershop expos. His journey demonstrates that no matter where life takes you, a solid educational foundation provides invaluable tools for navigating the complexities of any career.

So whether you're contemplating graduate school for career advancement or personal growth, know that the investment in education will forever be a stepping stone towards achieving your greatest potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. And I say journey because it is a journey that you're on. Every person that's thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, getting ready to be done with graduate school, no matter what it is, you're going on a journey. There's a journey and a goal and a vision that you've set for yourself as you move forward, and you're looking to be able to move in a certain direction. Now sometimes that direction goes in a straight path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: Sometimes it's a little circuitous, but you never know. But this podcast is all about helping you find success in that journey. And how do we do it? Well, if this is your first show, we do it through conversations, conversations between you and I, but all but even better, conversations with others that have gone to graduate school to help you to find success in your own journey. So as we walk into every episode, I give you an opportunity to meet somebody new, somebody that's gone to graduate school, has learned many things along the way, and are sharing those learnings with you. So I encourage you to get out your pen and paper, get ready to gain some insights that can help you in this journey because we've got another great guest today. Dan Kaman, otherwise known as Dan C. Bearded, is with us today. And Dan did his own graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: He went off, did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went on from there to go and become a teacher. And then at some at one point, he made a decision. He was Dan went, got a graduate degree. I'm really excited to have Dan on the show to share his journey with you. Dan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dan C. Bearded [00:01:59]: Absolutely. It's an honor. Thank you for the invite. That was a a really cool email to receive, to be honest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]: Well, we got introduced because you were just named one of the Flint and Genesee groups 40 under 40. Congratulations.

Dan C. Bearded [00:02:12]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: Really excited to be able to talk to you about your journey. And and one of the things that I love being able to do is turning the clock back. I wanna turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And going through that undergraduate degree, you decided to become a teacher, ended up going off, becoming a middle school teacher, working with kids and teaching them history. And at some point in that journey that you went on as a teacher, you made a decision to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head. What made you decide you wanted to continue and get that graduate degree?

Dan C. Bearded [00:02:49]: Yeah. And it actually was never a plan or or a goal of mine. I thought I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a coach, and that was kind of the end of it. And so I started teaching, got a job right outside of graduating, and it was at the school that I had went to, and it was the dream. It was going really well. And in education, you find out when you do very well, they want to kinda move you up in the in the ladder, up in the system. And so pretty early on, I was, like, named a team leader, then I was the tech chair for our school and all this stuff.

Dan C. Bearded [00:03:20]: And then, eventually, the administration kind of was like, hey. We would really like you to pursue a path in administration. We think you'd be great at it. And I was like, okay. Awesome. You know, more money, more influence in this umbrella to help as many people as possible. So I decided originally that I was gonna go to be a teacher leadership is the name of it, but essentially for administration. And so I wanted to to be a principal.

Dan C. Bearded [00:03:43]: I was teaching full time. I was coaching full time and had a young family at the time. So I had to find something that was gonna be possible and work for me. And that was pretty much the start of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:53]: So every person goes through a little bit of a their own journey as they're figuring that out and they're saying, okay, yeah, I wanna do this graduate degree, but there's a lot of different options. There's a lot of options out there, a lot of different schools that teach in different ways. And talk to me about what you went through when you were whittling down that list for yourself, when you were looking and saying, you know what? Here's the schools that I'm considering. This is what I'm looking for in the schools. And and what brought you to that final decision of attending the University of Phoenix?

Dan C. Bearded [00:04:25]: Yeah. Great question. And and that was something that was very important to me because, to be honest, I didn't think it was possible with teaching full time, with being a coach, and I was coaching all year round. Pretty much every single day of the year, I was doing private lessons. I was tutoring. I mean, I had a really full schedule, but I did like the concept of being able to become a principal. And so I tried to look in every angle I possibly could, and I found out that online was gonna be my best option. But I also found out I wasn't exactly your traditional student.

Dan C. Bearded [00:04:57]: Fun fact that when I interviewed for my first teaching job, I let them know that my first six credits of college at U of M Flint, I failed all six of them. I actually had to take a study skills class to learn how to study because high school came very easy to me. I never really studied, never really tried, did very well. Went to college, assumed it was the same thing, and everybody told me the rules, like, 3 hours of studying for every hour of classwork. And I was like, oh, no way. They they don't know me. Well, they were right. I was entirely wrong, and I wasn't in love with the process of being a student.

Dan C. Bearded [00:05:29]: So I got through college. I did did fine, did did well, but the idea of pursuing that for another 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years was not a thought that I was gonna entertain. It just was not my thing until I found the University of Phoenix, and I started talking with them. They had a program that was kind of hybrid where I could work online, but also pair with, like, teacher leaders in my area. And so a lot of my classwork was I actually went to another middle school teacher a couple of times a week, and we worked together 1 on 1 for most of my first master's degree. And it paired with online testing and online papers, and and it was just kind of the perfect relationship for my learning style, but also my schedule at the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:14]: So you made that transition into your master's degree as you started talking about some of the things that you had to do in your master's degree to find success. But talk to me about there is that transition that you go through. And going from undergraduate work where you're being taught in a certain way to going into graduate work, it's a very different style of teaching, learning, and skill set that you need to find success. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And What did you have to do throughout your program to maintain that success?

Dan C. Bearded [00:06:50]: Absolutely spot on. The learning was entirely different from my undergrad. My undergrad, it was kind of figuring out what I wanted to do. I originally went, like I said, and failed all 6 classes while I was in a degree that I wasn't interested in. I originally went for, essentially, radiation. I wanted to either be a radiation tech. I I didn't know what I wanted to do, and we had a family friend that owns a large company and said, hey. You get this degree.

Dan C. Bearded [00:07:14]: I'll give you this job. I was like, awesome. And then turned out I didn't really relate to what I was learning. And so I couldn't get attached to it. So I was coaching in college and was like, I really enjoy this, but I can't make a career right off of coaching with similar teaching. So then I went into that. That was very nice. The biggest difference for me with the transition is in my undergrad, I kind of had a core group of friends and colleagues and classmates, and we all kind of got through it together.

Dan C. Bearded [00:07:40]: We went through the classes. We talked about the professors. We talked about what credits we needed. We kind of had each other that we traveled with. And then transitioning into graduate school, for me at least, it was very individual. I didn't have that same kind of core. I didn't have that same kind of group. So my key to success was shifting my organization and being relentless with not having options.

Dan C. Bearded [00:08:04]: If I had something that was due, if I had a project that I needed, if I had a meeting, it wasn't the case of how do I get this done, when do I get this done. It's I will get this done by that time no matter what. And my biggest transition again was just that being an individual rather than having kind of an undergrad, a very clear path. Hey. This is what you're gonna do. This is what's going forward. I was almost more driving myself and leading, but also was with something that was very particular to the skills that I was wanting to pursue and what I was wanting to learn about. So if I had to look at, like, my engagement level, my master's, both things.

Dan C. Bearded [00:08:41]: I I went for a second master's degree was very detailed and very engaging because it was only about the exact things that I wanted to use those degrees for, and I loved that a lot. It it suited me so well even and I had a great undergrad experience, but the concept of my masters suited me even more so.

Dan C. Bearded [00:09:00]: So talk to me about the second masters now because I know that you got the one masters, and some people say that's enough. Don't wanna go any further than that. Don't wanna get a doctorate. Don't wanna get another master's. I just wanna be done and keep moving with my career. You decided after finishing 1, a little bit after to get a second master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head at that point. And what made you decide that you wanted to continue your education to be able to move forward?

Dan C. Bearded [00:09:30]: Yeah. So kind of a 3 part storm that came together perfectly. One was I was working. I had a young family. On a teacher salary, kinda two sides to it, my first 5 years of teaching, we were on a pay freeze. So I was at the bottom step of the teaching salary. The only way I could earn more money within that job for my family was to not move up on the scale, but to move over with the education. So to be entirely honest, I saw that if I pursued more education, I would have more income.

Dan C. Bearded [00:10:00]: So I did that. Another thing, this is not something I advise now looking back on it, but also I had student loans. And as long as I was a student, I could defer those student loans and not pay them. Now as a young twenties man that was trying to survive and get by on not the greatest salary in the world, that was enticing to me. But the real reason, the main reason I decided to pursue a second master's degree is at the end of my first master's degree where I wanted to be in administration, essentially a principal, I found out that that job and career did not suit my my strengths and my personality well. I think I would have done the job very well, but I believe my quality of life would not have been where I wanted it to be, and that was achieved by shadowing. Did all the classwork, did all the projects, all the studying. Once I actually got towards the end of it and it required hours to shadow different principals and different administrators, I realized what I loved about teaching, much of that was taken away on the administration side, and the things that I disliked about teaching were highlighted.

Dan C. Bearded [00:11:03]: Now the skills I learned, the the actual trait of having that master's to my name, unbelievably valuable. I do not regret one second of it. But I knew I wanted to continue for the reasons I mentioned earlier. But I also knew I loved education. And my biggest focus was how can I have the greatest umbrella of influence over education? How can I help as many people as possible? So I then went into curriculum development. And I really liked the concept of when I taught, I did project based learning. I looked through the lens of engagement because I wasn't a great student myself. And I encountered a lot of teachers that were all a students, that were in love with learning, and oftentimes, they would miss the students that were not loving learning.

Dan C. Bearded [00:11:45]: They would miss those students, and they would chalk it up to bad behavior. They'd chuck up these things and I would, like, kinda wipe my arms around and say, hey. That was me. I wasn't that engaged student. Think about teaching through this lens. And I really loved that concept of at least being able to give a little bit of perspective. And so I pursued the the curriculum development degree and absolutely loved it. And that would be my career right now if my YouTube channel and the other side of my life didn't start taking off at the exact same time to the point where I had some of the hardest decisions of my entire life, to the point where I'm not even a person that stresses.

Dan C. Bearded [00:12:20]: And my wife, she handles all that for us, but I I love being kind of low key and mellow. I ended up going to a dermatologist at the end of my master's degree, my second one, because I had job offers. While my YouTube channel was taking off, I had this rash that broke out all over my leg, and I've never had that before. I went in. It was a stress rash. My body was not used to this level of stress, and making the decision to take a job and a contract with my master's degree or take this shot on this other side of life that has no blueprint. It became a very tough decision, but I absolutely loved especially my second master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:55]: So let's talk about that transition because like I said at the very beginning, you have times in your life where the path may be very straight, and then there may be some where it's circuitous. And you completed your degrees. As you said, you had job offers on the table. You had opportunities, but you also had been doing some other things. So talk to me about how these graduate degrees, how the courses, the education, the knowledge that you attained in these, As you look now at the work that you're doing through Dancy Bearded and your YouTube channel, how are you utilizing that education in the work that you do every day?

Dan C. Bearded [00:13:36]: It seems like the most unrelated possible fields. I do YouTube for beard care. I help people trim their beards, style their beard. You would be shocked at how much it overlaps and even at times as a direct carbon copy. So for example, 2 weekends ago, I was flown out to San Antonio, Texas, and I was there for 4 days. I was the keynote speaker at the 2nd largest Barber and Beauty Expo in the world, only to be topped by the one in Orlando, which I also went to. And taken out there, I teach a class to barbers. This time, it was 40,000 different barbers.

Dan C. Bearded [00:14:09]: And I teach a class called the science of beards. And, essentially, I teach them for an hour, and then I have questions afterwards and content and all this stuff. But I teach them about how head hair is different than facial hair down to the sebaceous glands and the thickness and coarseness and all these different things. I am entirely creating curriculum that is missing from barber school. In barber school, they do not spend any time on facial hair, and it is all about the head hair. But anybody that goes to a barber assumes they're an expert with beards and facial hair because that's what they do. And barbers, the only ones that are successful at that are the ones that pursue the knowledge on their own outside of their own schooling. So I have taken the curriculum development masters and have actually made curriculum that never existed before just in an entirely different world.

Dan C. Bearded [00:14:54]: And then on the other side, the administration side for the master's degree, so much of that is how do you handle parents? How do you handle delicate situations? How do you handle confidential information? Well, on the YouTube channel, I get this is crazy. Right? Wild thought, but I get mean comments online. You know, the Internet is going to have something sassy to say, especially a guy that is grooming himself and taking care of himself with pride. You can imagine the comments that come with that. Was an administrator and especially as being a middle school teacher for 12 years, I lived in that world. I I understood what it was like to receive a emotional oftentimes, a hateful oftentimes comment, and be able to not only handle it, but take pride in turning it and getting them on my side and bringing that as a part of this community and what I've built over here. These skills that I've learned from both of those master degrees are imperative to the success that I've had, and I would be nowhere near where I'm at right now without those.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: Now this show is all about graduate school success. You've shared a lot of different things in the journey that you went on. As you think about other individuals, other people that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that might help them find success sooner?

Dan C. Bearded [00:16:06]: Great question. I like to talk to people. I love conversations like this. I love listening to podcasts. I don't know if I've ever heard someone regret their education. I don't know if I've ever heard someone say, I went I went too far. I got too many degrees. It's something that is always gonna be transferable.

Dan C. Bearded [00:16:22]: It's something that they will never be able to take away from you in a world that is oftentimes trying to minimize or take things away. And to find that success, especially for the graduate program, it's finding that skill set that you love that makes the most out of your strengths and then applying it to the program that's gonna fit you the best. I truly believe if you follow passion, success will follow. And a graduate program is an unbelievable kind of aid or, like, almost like a cheat code to that success when you fuel it with passion. So my biggest advice would be genuinely speaking. Find your passion. Find the program that's gonna fit to your schedule and your life and learning style the most, and then go full force on it. Absolutely go after it, and you'd be shocked at where the path can go, like you said, that you don't even see.

Dan C. Bearded [00:17:11]: You have no concept. You might have an idea in mind of this is where I wanna go. Be open to those changes, but understand that the education will always be there to help you along that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: Well, Dan, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I wish you all the best.

Dan C. Bearded [00:17:26]: Thank you so much for having me. This is absolutely amazing and hope to be back in the future. I could talk about this stuff all day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:32]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we delve deep into the world of graduate education with Phillip Thompson, a seasoned community relations manager at the University of Michigan Flint. As a staunch advocate for higher education, Phillip's journey is both inspiring and enlightening. In this blog post, we'll expand on their conversation, reflecting on key takeaways and offering deeper insights into the graduate school experience.

Choosing the Right Path: Phillip's Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Phillip Thompson's trajectory toward graduate school wasn't immediately clear-cut. After earning an undergraduate degree in Economics from the University of Michigan Flint, Phillip explored various educational avenues. He considered law school, an MBA, and even dabbled in public administration courses. However, it was his passion for words and literature that ultimately led him to pursue a Master's in Liberal Studies.

Phillip's story underscores an essential point for prospective graduate students: the journey to selecting a graduate program is deeply personal and often non-linear. Choosing a field that genuinely interests you can be the difference between a fulfilling academic experience and one that feels like a chore.

Transitioning into Graduate School: Success Strategies

Transitioning into graduate school comes with its unique set of challenges, and Phillip's experience was no different. During his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Phillip emphasized the importance of self-reliance and adaptability. Unlike undergraduate education, where group projects and general education requirements are common, graduate education demands a higher degree of specialization and individual accountability.

Phillip found that the structure of the Liberal Studies program, which required extensive reading and writing, suited his intellectual curiosities and work habits better than the group-centric MBA coursework. This individual-focused approach allowed him to delve deeper into subjects he was passionate about, demonstrating that finding your preferred learning style is crucial for graduate school success.

The First-Generation Student Experience: Overcoming Challenges

Being a first-generation college student, Phillip faced additional hurdles in navigating higher education. Without a familial roadmap, understanding the intricacies of academic administration, financial aid, and other bureaucratic hurdles fell entirely on his shoulders. Yet, his journey through graduate school was markedly smoother. Because he could focus on subjects that fascinated him, like literature, government, and history, the coursework felt less like an obligation and more like an opportunity.

Phillip's experience as a first-generation student highlights the importance of resourcefulness and self-advocacy. Building a support network of advisors, mentors, and like-minded peers can significantly ease this journey.

The Real-World Application: Graduate Education and Professional Success

Dr. Christopher Lewis explored how Phillip's graduate degree in Liberal Studies prepared him for his role as a community relations manager. Phillip explained that his broad academic training allowed him to approach problems from multiple perspectives, which is invaluable in community relations. Graduate education often equips students with more than just subject matter expertise; it provides critical thinking skills, exposure to diverse viewpoints, and the ability to engage with complex issues holistically.

Phillip's role at the University of Michigan Flint requires him to interact with a wide range of people and address various community needs. His graduate education has enabled him to be more adaptive, empathetic, and effective in his professional endeavors.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

Towards the end of the podcast, Phillip shared invaluable advice for anyone considering graduate school:

1. Understand the Time Commitment

   : Graduate programs require significantly more reading and in-depth study than undergraduate degrees. Be prepared to invest the necessary time.

2. Choose the Right Learning Mode

   : Whether it's online, in-person, or a combination of both, find what suits your learning style best.

3. Build Strong Relationships

   : Establish a good rapport with your advisors and professors. Their guidance can be instrumental in your success.

4. Develop a Schedule

   : Align your coursework with your natural rhythms of energy and enthusiasm to maximize your productivity.

Conclusion

Phillip Thompson's journey through graduate school is a testament to the transformative power of education. His story is a compelling reminder that finding the right path, while challenging, can lead to both personal and professional fulfillment. Whether you're a prospective graduate student or currently navigating your own graduate journey, these insights and tips can serve as a valuable guide to help you achieve your academic and career goals.

For more information about graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms.

TRANSCRIPT (unedited transcript provided through CASTMAGIC

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, you and I are on a journey together. I love being able to talk about this journey that you're on in either looking at grad school, going through grad school, getting done with grad school, wherever you are in this process. It is a process. It is a journey and it's an exciting one. And one that is so that should be an amazing opportunity, amazing experience for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And part of the reason that this podcast exists is to help you along that journey, to help you find success from the very beginning. So no matter where you are in this continuum, where you are in this journey, this show is here to help you, to give you some tools, some thoughts, some perspectives on what others have done to be able to be successful in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can provide you with the journey that they went on and some of the tidbits, some of the things that they learned along the way that can help you to build some tools for your own toolbox. This week, we got another great guest with us. Philip Thompson is with us today, and Philip is a community relations manager at the University of Michigan Flint. And Philip did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint and then did a graduate degree degree with the University of Michigan Flint as well. So we're gonna be talking about his journey in going through that process for himself and get to know him a little bit better. Philip, thanks so much for being here today.

Phillip Thompson [00:01:49]: Thank you for the invitation. I appreciate it. I'm honored that you would ask me to be on today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Well, it's my pleasure having you here. And I wanna go back in time because I know that every per every people, every person has a different reason for going to graduate school. And as I said, you did your undergraduate work in economics at the University of Michigan Flint. You could have gone on and got a graduate degree in economics, you could have gotten an MBA, you could have done a lot of different things. But at some point during that journey, whether it was right in undergrad or after a few years of working, you made a decision to go back to graduate school. Talk to me about that, and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Phillip Thompson [00:02:29]: Yeah. So after my undergrad, it was a couple of years of working, and, of course, interesting story of mine is that of my mother's 3 children, I'm the only one that graduated from college. And so I kinda made her a promise that then if I were to complete my undergrad degree, I would eventually go back and get my master's. And, of course, she wanted me to go on and get my doctorate as well, but and I kinda semi promised that. But with that being said, I I I did promise to get the the master's degree. And so it was in part the fulfillment of a promise that I made to my mom to do it. And then, of course, I wanted it for myself as well. And that was kind of the motivating factors for me to go back and get my graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:14]: Now I've already said the fact that you got your bachelor's in economics. So there were other options that from what you chose and I'll get to that in one second. But you made the decision that you wanted to study liberal studies and you did that at the University of Michigan Flint. You could have done a master's in economics, you could have done an MBA, you could have done a lot of different things. Talk to me about that thought process of choosing a master in liberal studies degree versus something else. And what made you decide to study that area and especially study it at the University of Michigan Flint?

Phillip Thompson [00:03:52]: Of course, when I got with my undergraduate degree, economics, a lot of my advisor was saying, hey, go to law school. This is the natural progression. There's a lot of people who when they get their their econ degree, they go straight to law school. That's probably the number one feeder program in the law schools is the econ program. And so they're saying, go get your law degree. You've got all the skills you need to do it. And I thought about it. I thought very seriously about it because there was a friend of mine who was about 10 years older than me, and he was getting his going through law school and just taking one class at a time.

Phillip Thompson [00:04:24]: And he was very successful at what he was doing. He'd already had 2 master's degrees, and he was like, yeah, go to law school, you can do it. I had a cousin who's a couple years older than me, who was also going through law school. So I thought about that track, thought about the MBA as well. And I took about 9 credit hours in the MBA program and paused on that. I took some credit hours of masters in public administration, pause on that too. And then I started looking very seriously at the Liberal Studies program, and found it extremely fascinating, in part, because I love words. I'm a wordsmith.

Phillip Thompson [00:04:57]: I just love words. And so the literature itself became really the driving force for me to do the Liberal Studies program because I love to read and I love words. I was like, this is more germane for me. It felt the most natural and organic for me to go through the liberal studies program, and and I couldn't have been more happy. I mean, I got some trans professors that I still keep up with and really, really found it really, really exciting and fulfilling on every account.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: Now you just mentioned that you took some classes in the MBA. You took some classes in the masters of public administration, and you landed in liberal studies. Graduate coursework in the MBA is different than the MPA is different than the liberal studies. You're taught in different ways. The expectations are a little bit different, and in each of those, there are transitions that you have to go through, transitions in learning, transitions in expectations, be and and other aspects as well. So talk to me about transitions, and what did you have to do as you were transitioning into any of those individual classes, into the eventual masters in liberal studies to be able to, one, set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Phillip Thompson [00:06:13]: So the thing I discovered very quickly in the MBA program is that it's a lot of group work. And some people love group work, some people not so much. I'm in that latter group. I love groups, but I don't necessarily like group work. I tend to land on the merits of individual accomplishment. I'm better if I know that it's all on me. If I don't get it done, it's it's because I didn't get it done. In a group setting though, you have to rely on other people.

Phillip Thompson [00:06:40]: And there's nothing wrong with that. It just seemed that, again, it was easier for me to rely on myself. And that's what I liked about the Liberal Studies program. It was easy to transition to that because all of the reading was on me, all of the writing was on me versus in the MBA program. If you're doing an accounting class or you're doing a business project and you're trying to figure out how you can maximize profits, it's 2 or 3 other people that you have to cooperate with. And sometimes that's good and sometimes not so much. But the liberal studies program, again, because of the words and because of this individual accountability that I placed upon myself. It just seemed to be so much more easier for me to excel at that program.

Phillip Thompson [00:07:24]: The the master's of public administration was similar to liberal studies, but the material, I just didn't find it as fascinating as I did. The literature that I was reading in in liberal studies, very, very good stuff, but liberal studies just seemed to just open my mind up in all of these fascinating ways, you know, to talk about the history of America, the history of religion, the history of government, all of the things that just seem to just converge and they all just fascinated me. And so it was easy for me to, again, assimilate into that material, into that class work because I just found it so engaging.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:02]: Now you also mentioned that you were a 1st generation college student as an undergraduate student, a 1st generation college student as a graduate student as well. And with that comes its own challenges in understanding and being able to have the support to be able to get through those different experiences. As a 1st generation college student, as a graduate student, what were some of the challenges that you ran up against that you felt like you had to overcome?

Phillip Thompson [00:08:31]: Well, I'm gonna tell you, I found graduate school to be much easier than undergraduate school. And I've talked to a lot of people who say the same thing, undergraduate, you've gotta take a lot of courses that you don't necessarily wanna take, but it's required of you. And then of course, being a first generation college student, I didn't know how to navigate through the system well, because I didn't have a precedence. Nobody could say, hey, you know, this is what you do. This is how you talk to your counselors. This is how you handle all of these things, financial aid. It was all on me to kinda figure it out. And, honestly, there were some semesters where I struggled in undergraduate.

Phillip Thompson [00:09:07]: But in graduate school, because I'm taking only the classes I want to take, only the classes that really interest me, and the classes, of course. There's some core curriculum, of course, but after the core curriculum, I mean, you get to choose your own path in graduate school, and that's what I found to be much easier than undergraduate. So I think the hardest thing about graduate school is the thesis. I struggled, and, you know, because it's that whole overanalyzing perfectionism mindset that you you bring to that experience. And, of course, writer's block, all of it, you name it. But overall, the class work was much more easier than undergrad, because you get to choose what path you want to take.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:54]: You definitely do get to do that. And that's one of the things that I always tell students is that the nice thing about grad school is that you're not going to have all of those other gen ed requirements that you're going to be having to be forced to take as an undergraduate student that you can focus in on the things that you're most passionate about and and most interested in, and you can then jump in from there. Now seeing that you did a graduate degree in the master's in liberal studies, And you are, as I said, at the very beginning, a community, a community relations manager in the Flint area, working for the University of Michigan Flint, as you look back at the graduate degree, what you learned in that process. How do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for what you're doing on a daily basis?

Phillip Thompson [00:10:44]: There's no question. In a graduate program, while you're focusing on your passions, as you said so eloquently, you're also, you know, dealing with this whole broad spectrum of information that you have to be open to new ideas, new experiences, new people. And so I think the biggest thing that the the graduate program did is expose me to some areas in life and some thought processes that I had never given consideration to. And I think that is the biggest thing about it. You come you you leave away from grad school realizing that we come to the school or graduate school with some narrow parameters, but we leave out, you know, having broadened our scope of knowledge and our experiences. So I think the biggest thing is, again, you leave away with an appreciation for multiple perspectives on any thought and on any idea. Right? Because you have to develop an appreciation for those who agree and for those who disagree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: Definitely. And I love that because I think that for one of the things that any graduate degree should be able to allow for you to do is to broaden your own perspective, to understand not only yourself better, but to understand others better. And it can open you up to being able to then relate to others better and the work that you're doing. So, so I appreciate you sharing that. Now, as you think about your own graduate experience, the journey that you went on, what you learned along the way, and you think about students that are going through their own journey, that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for a master's in liberal studies or something completely different. What are some tips that you might offer to those students considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Yeah.

Phillip Thompson [00:12:36]: I think the one thing that any person considering graduate school, should deeply consider is the time commitment. There's going to be far more reading in graduate school than there was in undergraduate school. It's just no other way around it because you're a subject matter expert, so to speak, when you leave that program. So in order to become that, there is a serious amount of reading that's required. So I think it's just the the time commitment that you have to give to the program. And, of course, there's a minimum threshold in graduate school. Undergrad, you can get a c and pass the class. That's not the case in graduate school.

Phillip Thompson [00:13:14]: It's a b or better. Right? There's there's no other way around. It's like you can't really half step in graduate school. So I think three things that I would say for those who are considering going back to graduate school is consider the time commitment that you have to give to reading. Number 2 is create a schedule that is most organic for you, your natural flows of energy and enthusiasm. So if you're taking a multimodal approach, if you got some online, if you got some in person, or if you've gone all in person, consider whether or not that works for you. Because some people do well in person, but don't do well online. So I would say, again, consider the time commitment, con consider the mode of your learning, which works best, which is most organic for you.

Phillip Thompson [00:14:06]: And then number 3, I would say develop a very close relationship with the advisor for the graduate program or the professors in the program, and let them know what your desire is. And that will be the very basic approach that any graduate student should take in terms of success. I think if you do those three things and you stay on top of it, there's no reason why you shouldn't be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:29]: Well, Philip, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing your thoughts on success and how you got there, and what others can do to do the same, and I wish you all the best.

Phillip Thompson [00:14:41]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:42]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we sit down with Zach Scott, a graduate student at Oakland University studying Clinical Counseling. Zach's educational and career journey offers a compelling story of transformation and introspection, making this episode a must-listen for anyone contemplating the value of following their passions, even if that means pivoting away from a well-established career path.

From Computer Science to Counseling: A New Direction

Zach Scott's journey is a prime example of how one's path toward fulfillment can often be winding and unexpected. After earning a bachelor's degree in both English and Computer Science from the University of Michigan Flint, Zach entered the world of web development and computer science, where he spent several years. Despite the creative and intellectually stimulating nature of computer science, Zach found himself increasingly dissatisfied.

"I wasn't as enthused about it as I had been before," Zach reveals. It wasn't just the isolated, anti-social nature of coding that contributed to his growing disillusionment; it was the deeper realization that he craved more meaningful interactions with people. The turning point came during the pandemic, when Zach engaged in frequent, deep conversations about job fulfillment and well-being with his colleagues. This experience illuminated his true call: to help others in a more direct and profound way through counseling.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Pivoting towards a completely new career is a monumental decision, one that demands thorough consideration and research. For Zach, the tipping point was a recommendation from his own therapist, who graduated from Oakland University. Unlike those who meticulously compare programs, Zach confesses he relied largely on his gut feeling. A significant factor was the philosophical approach to counseling that the faculty at Oakland University employs, catalyzing his decision to apply there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis, the podcast host, emphasized the breadth of graduate programs available today, ranging from in-person to hybrid and fully online modalities. Zach opted for an in-person program to foster genuine connections with his peers and professors, something he feels is crucial for his own learning style and well-being.

Transitioning Smoothly: Setting Yourself Up for Success

Transitioning back into academia after a hiatus can be daunting, but Zach shares practical tips that smoothed his journey. One of his key strategies was starting slow: "My first semester, I only took one class," Zach explains. This allowed him to immerse himself fully in the course material without feeling overwhelmed, essentially easing him back into the rhythms of academic life.

For those looking to emulate Zach's success, he suggests embracing a slower pace, engaging deeply with the material, and finding a personal connection to your field of study. Instead of treating the curriculum as a mere list of requirements, see it as an opportunity to delve into subjects that truly ignite your passion.

Leveraging Past Experiences

Zach's diverse academic and professional background has proven to be an invaluable asset in his new field. His English degree, centered around literary analysis, has refined his ability to discern deeper meanings and symbolic narratives in his counseling sessions. Zach's computer science expertise equips him with strong problem-solving skills, enabling him to identify patterns and root causes, a crucial skill in psychotherapy.

Building Connections: The Importance of Networking

One of the standout pieces of advice Zach offers revolves around the necessity of building genuine relationships during your graduate studies. "Be friendly," Zach urges. Whether it's classmates or professors, forming meaningful connections can profoundly enrich your academic experience. The friendships and professional networks you build can offer support, provide opportunities, and even lead to job prospects.

Embracing Your Unique Path

As Zach reflects on his past and looks to the future, he underscores the importance of trusting your own intuition and following your unique path. "It's okay to change your mind," he says, reassuring listeners that fluctuating between interests and making career pivots isn't a sign of failure, but a hallmark of personal growth.

In closing, Zach's journey from computer science to clinical counseling serves as a compelling reminder that graduate school isn't just an academic endeavor but a deeply personal journey. By following one's passions and remaining open to change, students can transform both their careers and their lives.

For those pondering a return to academia, Zach Scott's story encourages you to examine your passions closely and take the leap—your true calling may be just around the corner.

TRANSCRIPT (unedited transcript made with help of CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are going through this graduate school journey that you're on. You might be just at the beginning where you're just starting to think about putting that application in. You might be actually accepted and ready to get going. You could be in grad school and seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: There are things that you can do to be able to be successful in the journey that you're on. Things that you can start right now. And every week I love being able to bring you different people, different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school or are in graduate school. And they've had experiences that can help you to be able to better understand the experience that you're gonna be stepping in no matter what that journey may be. This week we've got another great guest. Zach Scott is with us. And Zach did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. He did a bachelor's degree in both English and computer science, and is now in a graduate program at Oakland University studying clinical counseling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: We're We're gonna talk about the journey that he has been on. And we're going to learn a little bit more about him as well. So I'm really excited to have him here today to be able to share his journey with you. Zach, thanks so much for being here today.

Zach Scott [00:01:40]: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: I am really excited to have you here. And one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turn the clock back because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And then after getting that bachelor's degree in English and computer science, you went out. You went out and you started a career. You started a career doing work in different types of work in computer science. And at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to change paths. You wanted to pivot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:18]: You wanted to move in a different direction, and you wanted to continue your education. Tell me about that point. And what made you decide that it was time to go to graduate school, and what made you decide that you wanted to completely change directions?

Zach Scott [00:02:31]: After I finished my undergrad, I went and just got a bunch of jobs in computer science. I worked with mainframes, and I did a lot of web development. I've mostly been a web developer, and that work can be really creative and it can be really interesting work. But after a while, I just sort of noticed that I wasn't as enthused about it as I had been before. I think part of it was learning. When you start your career, you don't exactly know what in a career is fulfilling to you because you haven't had a lot of opportunities to try things, see what works, what doesn't. So you're kind of assuming, well, I'm gonna like this I think. I've liked everything I've studied, and you sort of plunge into it.

Zach Scott [00:03:08]: And, again there's a lot of things I like about computer science, but something I started to notice was I wasn't really getting a chance to talk with people very much. I like interacting with people, and in programming it can be really antisocial. And when the, pandemic hit, everyone was just working from home. So I noticed I was spending a lot of time at work having meetings with people and saying, you know, is this job fulfilling to you? Like, how can we have, like, a more enjoyable atmosphere? And I was having a lot of conversations with people, and I started doing that more than writing code and working on technical problems. And as I was approaching my 30th birthday, I really did not feel very good. I was really I felt really, like, a bit aimless and a bit I just didn't think my work was really, energizing me. And I was listening to a talk by a a guy named James Hollis. He's a psychotherapist that I really respect.

Zach Scott [00:04:02]: And he was sort of talking about the midlife crisis feeling and finding what you're called to do. And the way he framed it, I was like, yeah. I really need to, like, sit and consider this question. Like, it's not just going I'm not just going to fall into the thing that's meaningful for me. I have to reflect on it. And so I started reading into psychotherapy a lot because I've benefited from psychotherapy in a lot of really deep ways. And I just sort of had an epiphany. I was like, oh my god.

Zach Scott [00:04:27]: I could do this. Like, there's I spend most of my days talking to friends and family members about life and and mental issues that we face and these types of things, and that's my favorite place to be. That's my favorite kind of conversation to have right now. So I was like, yeah. I can go back to school. I always have enjoyed studying. I study all the time just for fun. I like to read a lot.

Zach Scott [00:04:50]: So it just sort of clicked for me. And I talked to my therapist. He told me that he went to Oakland, and so I applied for the program there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:58]: Well, you kind of answered my next question, which was there's lots of programs that are out there, and you could have applied for clinical counseling in a lot of different places, and you chose Oakland University. And it sounds like you were pushed to that through a recommendation from your own therapist and wanting to move into that. But were were there any other factors, any other things that you were looking for in a graduate school, and what you were trying to get out of that program that made you decide that Oakland was the right fit?

Zach Scott [00:05:28]: Other people are gonna be completely different here. And this is going against conventional wisdom, but I don't shop around very much, honestly. I don't. I just don't. It stresses me out when I have a bunch of choices to pick from. I usually go with my gut, and I go with, like, I like the symbolic choice. So for me, it was like my personal therapist went here, and he was telling me all about faculty there. And some of the professors he told me about, I really liked what I was hearing, and I liked that they had a philosophical approach to counseling.

Zach Scott [00:05:59]: And so I thought, okay. This is really first of all, it's not that far of a drive because I live in Ferndale right now. So it it I wanted it to be close so that I could visit in person. That was what was really important to me was being able to make it there in person. So I needed some place close, and I liked the idea that my own therapist could vouch for it. And I knew that no matter what other option, I if I shopped around, I wouldn't have, like, a personal connection to that place, and that was important to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: So as you decided to go back to school, as you transition from going from work and a number of years not being in school, it's definitely a transition as you enter back into, let's say, school mode. So talk to me about that transition and what you had to do to set yourself up for success at the beginning of the experience and what you've had to do throughout this experience to be able to maintain that success, especially as you have transitioned, 1, from being out of school for a while, but 2, transitioning into a program that is very different than English or computer science, and now studying something completely different.

Zach Scott [00:07:08]: Yeah. First of all, this is just very practical, but I think one thing I did was my 1st semester, I only took one class. I took a single class. Everyone I talked to in the program was like, I'm taking 3 classes. I'm gonna take spring summer. I just wanna get this over with. I just wanna get this over with. I think if you're like me and you've been away from school for a while, I really recommend that.

Zach Scott [00:07:29]: Well, I don't understand the rush. You know? Like, if you're just trying to start a career, I understand it's exciting and you wanna get through it, but I think it's a lot easier. You can do a lot better if you take a slow approach and find the rhythm of the program and sort of ease your way into it. So I only took one class, and what was nice about that was I could really give my all to that one class. So I did all the readings. I did all the assignments, like, right away. It was my only priority, and that worked really well for me. And when it comes to making a big switch, something that I think helped me a lot was I dove into the things that I thought were personally very interesting beforehand.

Zach Scott [00:08:06]: I started reading about early psychoanalysis because that really fascinates me. So I was reading a lot of Freud, and I ended up falling in love with the works of Carl Jung. And so I walked in having a personal interest in the program. I followed the things that really energized me that I felt really resonated. And that way, I walked in feeling like, okay, I don't know. I didn't have a psychology undergrad. Everyone else did. Almost everyone in the program has a psychology undergrad.

Zach Scott [00:08:40]: So I didn't have the same background, but I had a a personal connection with the material. And I was able to talk with people and compare their approaches to what I thought was interesting in all of this. And I was able to talk to professors and have really cool conversations about psychoanalysis and these types of things. So just diving into what you think is really interesting, I don't I didn't, you know, I didn't brush up on behaviorism and all of these things that I just I don't really find very interesting. The pro I also say that my program was I asked a question. I said, what should I do? I asked the director, what should I do before I show up? And he said, you don't really have to do we're gonna cover the basics, so don't sweat it too much. So I I didn't. I was like, I'll trust the program.

Zach Scott [00:09:27]: I don't want to burn out, so I didn't dive in to everything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:30]: Well, now you've been in the program for a little bit of time, and you got past that 1st term. You've been able to find success as you've moved along. And what have you had to do as you've continued in the program to be able to continue that success for yourself?

Zach Scott [00:09:48]: This is something that I didn't really anticipate being so important, but when you get to grad school, everyone in grad school is nervous. Everyone is a little bit afraid to be there, and it's not gonna seem like it. But but I promise that everyone sitting there is really scared because it's a new environment, and they wanna prove that they're capable in all of this. Everyone's excited and nervous, and everyone is sitting there very scared to talk and probably looking at their phones before class because we're all so scared. And and one thing that's been really really crucial is pushing past that or observing that fear a little bit, working with it, and making connections with other students and with professors as people. You know, I guess if I wanna if if I was being a traditional career type person, I would call that networking. But to me, it's it's more than networking. It's like, what you don't wanna do is go to grad school and keep your head down, do the material, do the assignments, get out, and go try to find a job.

Zach Scott [00:10:52]: I mean, you can. That's totally valid. But I think it becomes such a deeper experience if you can make connections with people and just start little conversations, ask people, how did you feel about that assignment? Or I started trying to get people together after class for little activities and just sort of starting a little social circle in my program so that as a cohort, we're all connected. And then you hear things like, oh, well, I've got a job opening where I work, and if you're interested, you know, it opens up the door for all kinds of things. If you're talking to your professors in an earnest way, you're not trying to win their favor or look like a great student or something. Just talking to them as people. Professors really like that, and you can get really good references there and other opportunities. But even beyond that, just go in being earnestly curious about everyone in the program and try to work with that scary voice that says, don't talk to anyone.

Zach Scott [00:11:45]: Just just do a good job. That's been my favorite thing, and I know it's not like a traditional thing that a that a career counselor might tell you about, but be friendly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:54]: Being friendly is definitely important, and especially that becomes even more important if you're well, I'm gonna say if you're in person, you definitely wanna be friendly because you're going to be seeing those people all the time. But even if you're not, you wanna be able to build those relationships. No matter if you're in in an in person program or if you are in a hybrid or a online program. Don't just sit there with your camera off and not getting to know the people. It's very easy to do if you're in an online or hybrid program, but you're going to take a lot more out of it if you're able to find some way to make those connections. And those tangible connections are going to allow you and help you to be able to get through the program and be more successful in the end. So I will be honest and say that the the graduate programs that I have been in for the most part, my master's degree was an in person program. I got to know every person in that program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:57]: My doctorate program was mostly in person as well. So but I know that since COVID, things have changed. And graduate programs, you you'll find a big mix right now.

Zach Scott [00:13:07]: Yeah. And I look specifically for in person offerings because right now at Oakland, both are offered. I would say it's worth the drive if you can do it because there is just an engagement you find by being on campus and and a sort of organic connective aspect that you really just it's harder to do online, it's worth it to go to camp. I mean, it's a long drive kind of for me. It's like 30 minutes to 40 minutes. Like, I don't want to every day, but it really is something special.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]: So one of the things that I'm kind of interested about is as you've been going through this clinical counseling program, and you have a very different undergraduate background, a very different work experience and path that you have followed to get to where you are, than even others that are in your cohort that are going through classes with you. How do you find yourself drawing from that academic experience, that work experience that may be very different to allow for you to have a different perspective in the program? How do you pull from that? And what do you find that you pull from on a regular basis versus the new learning that you're going through as well?

Zach Scott [00:14:20]: Yeah. So I gotta say, my English undergrad, I pull so much from my English my English program. The the experiences I had in the English program have really served me well because and I didn't even do this intentionally. It's not like I said to myself, oh, I'm gonna become a counselor because the English background will help a lot. It's just sort of my personal interest in these things led me to this place. I so in counseling, when you're talking to people, most of the skills, it's about listening for meaning. You're trying to hear not just what a person is saying. You know, there's, like, connotation, denotation.

Zach Scott [00:14:55]: So it's very easy to get into the denotative stuff. Well, they said this they they live alone. They have a cat. Blah blah blah. The hard part and the sort of magical part is the connotative part. You're listening for so and this is idiosyncratic. This is what I do. Not every counselor is going to do this, and and all approaches are equally valid, and there's research that that has pretty much shown that.

Zach Scott [00:15:17]: So so I lean in to my own personal approach to these things, partially because the the research shows it's to do so. But I'm listening to a person, and I'm trying to hear for their story. I'm trying to hear what the symbols are in their life, what those symbols mean to them. And often, you'd be surprised you have a short conversation with someone and the amount of meaning you can uncover and the dense symbolism in just small phrases. If you're paying attention, you hear it, and that's literary analysis. Right? That's the nuts and bolts. Okay. Someone was I I do a lot of dream analysis.

Zach Scott [00:15:56]: This is also not something most people do. So this is my own thing, but I like dreams because dreams are essentially short stories. And they're really good short stories, and they tell you a lot about a person's psyche. And I know a lot of people, who have been skeptical of it. And then I just talked to them about their dream for 10 minutes. And they have all these realizations, and it's really cool. Or they say, no. That doesn't make any sense, and they walk away.

Zach Scott [00:16:22]: I'm not acting like it's not a magic cure or anything. But when I talk to people about their dreams, I'm analyzing that as as essentially literature, and I don't think there's any fundamental difference between the 2. So that has been massive. When it comes to computer science, I think what it gives me is the problem solving aspect. So I take in computers computer science is entirely problem solving. That's the whole discipline. I it's it's not even really a science. I mean, if you read a lot of the theories, you know, as the older textbooks say, computer science is not even a science, and it's it's really a discipline.

Zach Scott [00:16:57]: It's a craftsmanship about how to solve problems. And so when someone's talking to you, as a therapist, you have to be able to store massive amounts of information. You have to have a really good memory, and then pull from it, and start to see patterns, start to see how now people aren't problems, so I'm not trying to solve a person as a problem. But what I am trying to do is follow threads, follow different behaviors, and see is there something that seems to be causing this? Is there a trigger for this? It's not that different from working on, computer programs where you're just looking through what's the pattern, why is this issue happening. Mean, the difference is you're working with a human being and a human being is way more profound and interesting than any computer, but it's essentially you get to kind of work those skills in a way that's unique to someone who has a computer science background.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: Now, Zach, you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you've learned along the way as you've walked through this journey for yourself, and you're still on that journey for yourself. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to any individual that was looking at going to graduate school that would help them find success

Zach Scott [00:18:09]: sooner? I really want to highlight because this has been so big for me, and I've already touched on it a lot, but trust own souls guidance and find what really makes you feel passionate in a deep way. Trust that you can leap into the whatever the discipline is, find the things that really, really excite you. And if nothing excites you, don't be afraid to change your path completely. Look at me. I've had English, computer science, clinical counseling. I don't know how long I'll be a counselor for. I'm not looking at this as, like, the rest of my life even necessarily. It's okay to change your mind.

Zach Scott [00:18:45]: It's okay to try a bunch of things. There's a lot of societal pressure. You know, you need to get into your career, make money, get a house. Houses are expensive. It's okay to play a little bit. Play around. Read books. I would also say that.

Zach Scott [00:18:58]: Read a lot of books. For someone who reads books, pick up esoteric books, things that you are just sort of curious about, but you would never read and find stuff that your program is not gonna teach you. Buy those books if they seem you just you can just pick a book because the title is cool. It doesn't but, like, find stuff that's that's outside of the discipline and bring it into the discipline. Don't just follow the curriculum because that's the way it's been laid out. In my program, I'm the only person in that I've met in the whole program who cares about union analysis. Right? I could take that and go, oh, I guess I should stop learning about that. But I've kind of done the opposite.

Zach Scott [00:19:33]: I've bought as many of his books as I can find because we need more voices. Grad school should be a forum for people to have serious debates, serious disagreements, and learn from it. So I just think to me that's the thing. Like, lean into your own personality and find that beautiful thing that only you're gonna bring to the program and just, you know, be proud of it and express it. It'll change things for you. You'll learn a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:55]: Well, Zach, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I wish you all the best as you finish your path and as you continue through the path, working to become the clinical counsel that you wanna become. Thank you for your time today, and I do wish you all the best.

Zach Scott [00:20:11]: Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:12]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Expanding Horizons Through Graduate Education

Graduate school can be an enriching yet challenging journey that adds immense value to one's personal and professional growth. During a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, host Dr. Christopher Lewis engaged in an insightful conversation with Dr. Laurence Alexander, the Chancellor of the University of Michigan-Flint. Dr. Alexander shared his extensive educational journey, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently navigating graduate studies. Below, we delve into Dr. Alexander's story, the decisions that shaped his path, and the lessons he learned along the way.

Initiating the Graduate Journey

Dr. Alexander's academic journey began with an undergraduate degree in Drama and Communications from the University of New Orleans. His early exposure to journalism through the college newspaper spurred his interest in pursuing deeper knowledge and skills in the field. Despite the University of New Orleans not having a specific journalism program, the broader Communication curriculum and experiences on the college newspaper cemented his desire to pursue a specialized graduate program.

Driven by the need to gain more in-depth knowledge in journalism, Dr. Alexander evaluated top programs across the nation, ultimately choosing the University of Florida due to their comprehensive fellowship package and the opportunity to work with Pulitzer Prize-winning editorialist, Dr. Buddy Davis.

Transitioning to Law

While pursuing his graduate studies in Journalism and Communications, an enduring interest in law, sparked during his undergraduate years, urged Dr. Alexander towards further education. His fascination with constitutional law and the judicial process fueled his decision to attend law school, aiming for a career covering courts with greater proficiency.

Dr. Alexander's law school journey led him back to New Orleans, where he juggled work and part-time law studies at Loyola University before receiving an offer from Tulane University. At Tulane, he received a partial scholarship and experienced a top-notch education, sharpening his legal acumen.

From Journalism to Higher Education

Dr. Alexander's career took an interesting turn as he transitioned from journalism to academia, influenced significantly by his mentor, David Womack. After serving as a senior fellow during his law school years, his passion for teaching grew. Pursuing academia provided Dr. Alexander with the opportunity to have a greater impact, merging his journalism and legal expertise.

Moving through academic positions at Temple University and then the University of Florida, Dr. Alexander eventually recognized the need for a PhD to advance his academic administration career. This realization led him to pursue a doctorate at Florida State University under the mentorship of Dr. Joe Beckham, specializing in educational leadership and policy.

Navigating Educational Transitions

Transitioning between different educational stages—from undergraduate to master's, law school, and eventually a PhD—required Dr. Alexander to adapt and refine his approach consistently. Key to these transitions were the skills he developed early in life, such as goal-setting and methodical planning. He emphasized the importance of breaking down vast academic goals into manageable tasks, ensuring each step was carefully planned and executed.

Leveraging Diverse Academic Backgrounds

Dr. Alexander acknowledged that each educational experience—journalism, law, and doctoral studies—equipped him with unique skills crucial for his role as Chancellor. His background in journalism enhanced his understanding of media relations, branding, and internal and external communications. His legal training proved invaluable in logical reasoning, argumentation, and managing large volumes of information. Similarly, his doctorates' focus on leadership in higher education provided him with comprehensive insights into the complexities of university administration.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

For those considering graduate school, Dr. Alexander advises a thorough self-assessment of motivations and goals. Understanding why you are pursuing further education can provide the necessary drive to overcome challenges. Evaluating practical aspects such as program affordability and accessibility and finding the right faculty to guide you can significantly enhance your graduate experience. Cultivating passion and grit remains essential, as these qualities sustain motivation through setbacks and tough times.

Conclusion

Dr. Laurence Alexander's academic and professional journey offers a profound testament to the cumulative value of diverse educational experiences. His seamless blending of journalism, law, and academic administration underscores the importance of passion, strategic planning, and adaptability. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from his story, understanding that each educational pursuit, though unique, collectively builds a robust foundation for future success.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with the help of CastMagic)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey that you're on. You could be just starting to think about graduate school. You could be already you could have already applied to graduate school, gotten that acceptance letter, and and anxiously awaiting to go for your 1st day of class. You could be in graduate school right at the beginning, could be toward the end. But no matter where you are in this continuum, there are things that you can do to find success in that graduate school journey, and that's what this show is all about.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: This show is here to help you, to provide you with some tools for your toolbox, to give you some insights into the journeys of other people that have gone before you that have done graduate school, been successful in graduate school, and can offer you some insights into things that they had to do as they went through that for themselves. So I hope that with every episode, you're able to take something, something small, something big that you can then put into action right away to prepare yourself for the journey that you are embarking on. Today, we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Laurence Alexander is with us today, and Dr. Alexander is the chancellor of the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to be able to introduce him to you to have you learn from his journey. Dr. Alexander, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:01:40]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis. Glad to be with you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to kind of delve into this, and I'm excited to learn a little bit more about your journey as well. I know that for every person, there's that origin story. And there's that point in time where you find that you want to take your degrees to the next level. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of New Orleans. And while you were there, you got that bachelor's degree in drama and communications. But at some point during that initial education, something awakened in you that made you decide that you wanted to go on, and you did go on. But let's go back in time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: Talk to me about what was it initially that made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:02:27]: Well, thank you for that question. You're absolutely right. There was a moment in time when as I was going through my undergraduate years, I was also working at the college newspaper. In my senior year, I became editor of the newspaper. So I served for a year working as the as the editor in chief and with a staff of about 25 or 30 students. And we published a newspaper every week and with the help of a newspaper advisor, who was a full time faculty member. And he was a very influential person, I thought, because he ended up being a mentor to me for many years to come. But during that time, I guess I thought I was getting a good feel for beginning my journalism career in at the University of New Orleans, but it didn't have a journalism program specifically.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:03:19]: It had a broad based communications program that was heavily based in drama, theater, arts. And so I got some very practical courses in that program. A couple of them were journalism specific courses, but I wanted more in-depth study and practice of journalism. So I started looking at programs, graduate programs, that would provide me with the kind of experience that I would need, the kind of preparation I would need for a career in journalism. And I started looking at the top journalism programs in the nation that also had master's programs in particular.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:59]: So you made the decision to attend the University of Florida, and I'd love for you to talk to me about you you said you were looking at a number of different programs. You looked at those top programs. Walk me through that thought process for yourself as you were whittling down those choices. And what made you finally decide that the University of Florida was the right place for you?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:04:19]: Well, there were a couple of other programs, you're right, that I was applying to, that I was looking at. I was based in New Orleans, my hometown. And, of course, I looked at Louisiana State University, which is a large research university, public university in the state of Louisiana, and I had a journalism program there for many years. I looked at programs in surrounding states, Arkansas, Mississippi. They happened to also be at major research universities that had major athletic programs in the, Southeastern Conference, which I did like football and basketball, and I watched a lot of it. So I heard of these schools. They, you know, the name brand resonated with me. But I also knew that the consensus top journalism program in the country was at Missouri.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:05:05]: And so I did apply to the University of Missouri. And and to my great happiness and surprise, I was accepted at Missouri. And I also applied at Florida. Florida was in the SEC. Several schools across the South I applied to, and I was accepted at Florida as well. And interesting though, with the Florida acceptance came an offer of a fellowship to study there. So an offer that came with some finances, some financial support to go to graduate school there. Florida was also pushing that they were one of the top schools in the nation, and it was certainly and still is.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:05:43]: But it also had some other appealing aspects to it in addition to a fellowship. And during the recruitment process, I did let them know I was considering going to Missouri, and and I really was kind of focused on going to the top school. And then about a week later, they called back and said that they had an additional scholarship that would basically take care of other expenses that I would have. So, I mean, it became an offer I couldn't refuse. The financials were you can't turn down essentially a full ride scholarship to graduate school at Florida. But I did add one other condition that they met, and that was I asked they had a Pulitzer prize winning editorialist on their faculty, and I wanted him to be my supervisor. And so I asked, is it possible that I could also get doctor Davis, Buddy Davis, to be my adviser? And they spoke with Buddy, and he came back and said, of course, yes. He'd be my adviser.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:06:38]: So I got a lot of what I wanted and what I was seeking at the time. Although I didn't go to Missouri, I didn't have any regrets. I got a first class education at at Florida and enjoyed my graduate education there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:49]: Now I know that was not the stop of your graduate education. You went on, and after finishing the master of arts degree, you something else must have awakened during that journalism and communications degree that you decided that you wanted to go to law school, which is a whole another completely different type of education. And so talk to me about that. What made you decide after thinking that you were gonna be starting this journalism career to kind of move in a little bit different direction to then going to law school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:07:22]: For sure. And the law school interest started while I was an undergrad as well because there was another strand going on. I kind of I guess I I took a lot of courses in political science. Several of those courses focused on constitutional law and civil liberties and so in the judicial process. There was a professor there. I'll mention him Professor Ed Heck. He was a scholar and he had done his work on, Justice Brennan and the Supreme Court. And he was dynamic.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:07:50]: I mean, he was a great professor in my mind, great teacher, great scholar. And I took every course he taught and really enjoyed learning about the judicial process, the supreme court, civil liberties, and how the court makes its decisions. So I've had a real interest in law as an undergraduate, but and this may resonate with some people. I saw that law school at the time I was coming out was a 3 year commitment. I was not ready to do another 3 years of school when I came out as an undergraduate. So I took the shortcut into the master's program. But it never never escaped me that I had this interest in law. And I was around a lot of friends at the newsroom who were in law school.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:08:32]: It's interesting that the editor and the publisher of the newspaper, they're both had law degrees at the newspaper, and it felt comfortable to move in a direction following my passions. Because I felt at the time I wanted to cover courts, I felt from the time I was studying it, oh, it would be wonderful to cover the Supreme Court. Oh, wouldn't it be great? And in my research, I found that many of the journalists who were at the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and Washington Post, and they covered the Supreme Court had law degrees. So it it made perfect sense to try to extend my journalism career and to go into an area that I had significant interest in by pursuing a law degree and then moving forward in the profession.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:15]: And I know you did attend Tulane and went back to Louisiana. So talk to me about that decision because there's lots of law schools out there, and I'm sure that you had some opportunities to be able to go to a number of places. Was it just the draw of going home, or was it something else that drew you to deciding that Tulane was the right place for you?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:09:34]: Yeah. A couple of those things. I was already at home working for the newspaper. And so I started out looking for an opportunity where I could continue working and attend law school part time. So I wanted to go to law school as a kind of like graduate school, but it's professional school, but go part time and work full time. So I looked for opportunities, not just in New Orleans, but elsewhere. And they had several of those programs on the Eastern seaboard. You could work full time and But I would have to get a job in those places, a full time job, and go to law school as well.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:10:06]: Well, I was based in New Orleans, and there was a program there, that was part time that I focused on quite a bit, and that was at Loyola University in New Orleans. I applied. I was accepted. And I also applied to Tulane, and I I applied to just a couple of law schools because I I was based in New Orleans. Well, I I got it accepted into Loyola, and I was very happy with that. I sent in my check that I would be attending to reserve my spot in the fall class. And then I got an acceptance from Tulane as soon as I put that in the mix. And I really had to do some soul searching because I've always admired Tulane.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:10:43]: Tulane is a it had the prestige of being a member of the AAU. It's an institution that's well known and becoming more well known now because of its athletic programs. But its professional programs are top notch in business and law and medicine and and public health. Tulane is renowned for that. And I live not too far from Tulane when I was a teenager, so I could hear the roar of the crowds. And we knew we knew where we we all knew about Tulane in there. And it was a kind of a dream school that I thought I really Gee, I can never attend Tulane University. But I got an acceptance letter from Tulane and I said, Oh my, what am I gonna do now? So I went in, made an appointment with the associate dean in the law school and went in and talked with her about my decision.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:11:32]: And, of course, she put on a hard sell, and and the next thing you know, I was attending Tulane. Tulane did offer as well a partial tuition scholarship to help with the expenses, in law school. So I was very pleased to get that. And I thought, geez, this is fantastic. And so I got a first rate education there. But the decision of going to law school was really I think it was really hatched when I was an undergraduate, and it was solidified when I was a reporter and reporting on I did a lot of crime reporting, but I really wanted to report on the courts. The courts was really my focus point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:08]: So you went through law school, got that law degree, and at some point during that whole journey, you started making a little bit of a pivot and looking at working in higher education and moving from being that journalist and moving into higher ed. And I know that after a number of years, you made a final choice, continued that education to get a PhD after being a assistant professor and being a professor and getting that type of experience as well. So talk to me about that next step, and what made you decide that you wanted to get the PhD?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:12:46]: There's a little bit of logic in there somewhere. A logical process because it meandered a bit because I did go to law after wanting to do that. And then I did interview with newspapers and got a couple of job offers actually to go back into newspapers after law school. But there were some competing offers on the table, and one of them was to go into academia. And that same mentor, David Womack, who I mentioned earlier, who was the adviser for the paper, was leaving the University of New Orleans, and he was going to Temple University. And he called me up and said, you know, that he thought I would be perfect for this job. It was a faculty job. It was a job that paid less than I was getting paid when I was at the newspaper, but he thought I would be good at it.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:13:29]: He thought I would love doing it. He turned out to be right. One of the things I found out in law school is I did love teaching, got the opportunity to do to be a senior fellows in law school, were 3rd year law students who worked with faculty members to help instruct and teach and and guide 1st year law students through the legal research and writing course, writing briefs and memoranda. And I got a lot of experience working with students and grading their work and under the supervision of a professor. And at the same time, one of the law schools writing competitions, writing on to one of the law reviews at law school. So in that process, I I I also after I wrote on, I I actually wrote a comment, which is a shorter which is an article for our law journal, which was published. So I got an experience of getting published in the law journal. And that was really, I mean, a coming together of things of, of sorts, of of the writing skills, of the wanting to write and be published.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:14:31]: Instead of being published in daily journalism, I was being published in an academic journal. At the same time, I was getting this teaching experience. So walking into academia was, was an easy choice in the walk, but I still was a little unsure about whether I would remain there or whether I would return to the journalism roots or or go to a different career. Well, I started it. And after 1 year there, there was an opening at Temple in the same day Womack. Doctor Womack called me and told me about an opening at Temple. And before you know it, I was on the faculty at Temple. Now I didn't just go to Temple just to go to Temple.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:15:08]: I went to Temple to get kind of what I got when I left UNO the first time, was to go to a place where journalism was on a larger stage, where I had colleagues who were in the journalism profession, where I had a real exposure to journalism and the profession and and the professoriate. And so that was an that was an important move for me. And I stayed at Temple for 3 years, then I made the move to to the University of Florida as a faculty member doing teaching and research. And then as soon as I about 3 years into Florida, I was tenured and promoted, and an opening came as chair of the department, and the dean encouraged me to apply for it, and I got the job as chair. I wasn't sure if I would love administration, but I did. Did like administration. But I found out something after several years of working in administration, that in order to move up to a dean or provost or president or something of that sort, I would need more than my law degree. That in order to navigate the universities successfully, I would need, I would need to get a doctorate, a PhD.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:16:19]: So I looked and searched and because I was raising a family in Gainesville and, and whatnot, I looked around the area, I didn't want to do it at the University of Florida, because I didn't wanna go to my colleagues, you know, over in education. So I looked around and and Florida State had a program that would meet my needs. But more importantly, there was a professor on the on on the faculty there, doctor Joe Beckham, who had a law degree, had that kind of background that could be my mentor, adviser, and and sponsor for the PhD program at, Florida State. And I only applied to one doctoral program, and that was Florida State. So I I was accepted, and as they say, the rest is history. But by then, I was fully involved. I was probably about 15 years into my academic career, and I was at a crossroads and needed to get the additional credential. And in the meantime, I was able to extend the the additional credential.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:17:10]: And in the meantime, I was able to extend the research that I was doing. I had done quite a bit of research. And my research was bringing together media and law all along, up and rising through the ranks. But I extended that to first amendment analysis as it relates to public colleges and universities and free speech on campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now I know that with all of these different degrees that you receive, you had transitions. There were transitions from your undergrad to your master's to the law school to your doctorate. In each of those different settings, you're taught in a little bit different way. The expectations are different. The way you have to think about things, process things, write about things is a little bit different. So can you and you found success in those transitions. Can you talk to me about what you had to do in each of those different transitions that you went through that you had to set up for yourself as you transitioned in, but also as you transition through that helped you find that success?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:18:08]: Oh, yes. I can talk about those. But I guess I hadn't reflected a whole lot on that on that point in particular. But as I think about it and as I think because you're right, I I mean, after undergraduate, I obtained 3 more degrees. So in order to be successful in those areas, I always relied on kind of some of the tools that I learned actually in high school in terms of goal setting and in terms of achievement. So I go all the way to the end product. What is it that I want to achieve? I want to obtain the degree and I work backwards. So what's it gonna take to to obtain the degree? And I make lists.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:18:46]: And I go through those lists, and then I break it down to to its smallest parts to what's it gonna take to be successful in this course. To get this degree, I need to get these courses. I need to get this dissertation. I need to get this thesis done. But to break it down to its component parts and say, okay. What things do I need to do to be successful in these courses? What things do I need to do? And then I proceed to make the changes in my life that are going to aid me in that process. Because at different stages in my life, I was in a different places. At one point, I was at the University of Florida where I got a full ride.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:19:20]: I was paying my own bills, living in a very tiny apartment off campus. But when I decided to go to law school, I was living in an apartment and working. And I gave up my apartment. I gave up my car. I gave up everything because I needed to make it as affordable as possible to go to law school. So I had to defer a lot of the gratification that many of my colleagues and friends had. So I had to make those conscious decisions that in order to achieve the goal that I want to achieve, in order to achieve the degree of success, I'm going to have to reorder my life and reprioritize some of those things that I enjoy doing so that, ultimately, I'm performing at a very high level with respect to my courses and classes, and that I'm I'm achieving the grades and the success that I need to achieve with that. At the same time, I'm keeping some sort of a handle on my life outside of school, but making sure that at the same time that the people around me understand, I'm in school.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:20:21]: I need to study. I'm gonna devote myself to this and making a conscious decision to achieve goals that lead to the achievement of higher goals all along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]: With all of the different degrees that you've had, the teaching experience, the administrative experience, all of these pieces have made you who you are today. And as you reflect back and look back to the different degrees that you did receive and now the work that you're doing as the chancellor of the University of Michigan, Flint, how do you feel that these degrees have helped to prepare you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:20:54]: Well, I think each and every degree that I've obtained has been essential to my success in even obtaining this job at U of M Flint. I think because going back to journalism, for instance, a lot of what the leader of an institution needs to be aware of and needs to have a an understanding of nowadays is media. They need to have even if they haven't studied media as a profession, but it's it was very beneficial to me to have a fuller understanding of marketing, advertising, promotion, and branding because that is what these institutions rely on. People see the block m, they see the m Flint, and they see that as emblematic of a great university, a great institution of quality in education. And so those notions stay with me constantly in in terms of how do we present ourselves or how are we perceived by the publics out there? And I did say publics plural, but in the very public arenas that are out there. Also, how we proceed in just daily journalism. How are we covered? Are we getting the information and messaging out? In communications, are we communicating both internally and externally to all of our constituents? And and I was reading something the other day that said university leaders probably communicate with more and diverse audiences than any other profession out there because we serve because of the population we serve and because of the status we hold within our communities. But it was vitally important.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:22:26]: The same with law. A lot of folks ask me, do you ever use your law degree? Oh, I use it every day. And not just using my law degree to I mean, I'm not arguing in court, but I'm framing arguments every day to in terms of advocating on behalf of the institution. Can you advocate without a law degree? Sure, you can. But I believe that those those skills that I learned in law school in terms of framing a quality argument versus just an argument or or improving on an argument or making it sharper and using more precise language in terms of that. I think those things are much learned behavior and all the other skills that come along with it, dealing with large volumes of material. Lawyers are trained in that way. We're sort of prepared for that.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:23:11]: And then decision making, I think the judicial process of reasoning, inductive and deductively, a reasoning of logical reasoning of of all of those things come together in law school to provide you with that kind of background. And in my doctoral program, well, that program was very specific to this kind of leadership position because it covered the entire range of things that I would face as a top administrator. I didn't know at the time that I would become a top administrator of a university, but those lessons learned are invaluable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:43]: And as you think back to your own graduate education and you think of students that are considering going to graduate school or maybe at the beginning of their graduate school experience, what are some tips that you might offer to anyone thinking about graduate education and going to graduate school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:23:59]: Well, I think when I'm advising people who go to graduate school, I I want them to think through why they're going. Think through what is it that you want to do, want to achieve. Think about what is the driving mechanism there. Because at some point in graduate school, whether it's a master's degree or a doctoral degree, you're gonna face some challenges. It's gonna face some difficult times. And that's where the passion or the drive or the grit is gonna come from to push you and motivate you to continue despite setbacks and despite some difficulties you might face while you're in your program. I would advise anyone considering graduate school to be to look at the range of possible choices out there and to look at them with a realistic eye toward what is affordable to them, what is accessible to them. Look at the faculty who are in the area that you wanna study.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:24:54]: I think that's brought me the greatest satisfaction even in my first graduate degree where I requested to have a Pulitzer prize winning editorialist as my advisor. I mean, I was looking at the faculty and saying, hey. I wanna study with those people. When I look at the faculty at Tulane, there were lots of distinguished folks when I read their bios. And then when I looked at faculty at Florida State, I was able to choose one who was really and truly qualified to be my dissertation adviser and to guide me through the program. And so these are people who you have to think will will go on to be your colleagues in the years and days ahead. So you may not be thinking about that in choosing a graduate school, but that's something to think about because if you choose someone or if you choose an institution that has the faculty in place who can provide you with the background that you need, you are much more likely to, 1, be successful, to, 2, to enjoy and appreciate and get a lot of satisfaction out of your experience. And then more so, you're going to be successful within the program.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:25:54]: You're going to be successful after the program, as you go about your career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:59]: Well, doctor Alexander, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey with all of us today. Thank you for giving all of these pieces of advice for those of us, for those students that are really considering graduate school. And I truly wish you all the best as you have stepped into this new role at the University of Michigan Flint and in the journey to come. So I truly wish you the best, and thank you for being here today.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:26:24]: Oh, I want to thank you, Dr. Lewis, for the, giving me this opportunity, and I wanted to give one final piece of advice to anyone out there who is considering graduate study. Please look closely at the University of Michigan Flint. Go Flint. Go Blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:39]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is an essential phase in one's academic and professional journey, offering an intricate blend of learning, research, and networking opportunities. During the 2024 NAGAP Conference, a diverse group of experts provided valuable insights on strategies that can help graduate students maximize their success. Here's a comprehensive guide drawn from their collective wisdom.

Leverage Campus Resources

• Bethany Satrom from Indiana University Bloomington highlighted the importance of utilizing all available resources on campus. Many institutions offer a wealth of support services such as career services hubs, faculty mentorship programs, and various networking events.
• Brett DiMarzo from Boston College emphasized the need for students to immerse themselves fully in their academic curriculum and extract maximum value from the experience. Accessing these resources can significantly enrich a graduate student's academic life and bolster their professional readiness.
• Corey Carey from John Brown University urged students to explore lesser-known resources like academic advising and tutoring, which often go untapped. By navigating through their university portals and uncovering every nook and cranny, students can find numerous support structures that can enhance their academic journey.

Engage with Faculty and Mentors

• Keith Ramsdell from Ashland University underscored the importance of maintaining regular communication with academic advisors. Unlike undergraduate programs, graduate students often work closely with academic professionals in their field of study, making these relationships invaluable for guidance and future employment opportunities.
• Daniel Truesdale from the University of Chicago advised students to build strong networks with their professors and faculty. Engaging with faculty outside of classrooms and seeking mentorship can open doors to numerous networking opportunities and enrich the learning experience.
• Sarah Wenger from Indiana University noted the significance of having a champion or mentor throughout one's graduate studies. A mentor can provide critical advice and support, helping students navigate the complexities of their academic and professional journeys.

Build and Nurture Your Community

Community building is a recurring theme among the experts.

• Brian Desrosiers-Tam from the University of Toronto** recommended that students find and actively engage with their community, whether through clubs, organizations, or professional groups. This engagement not only provides support but also enhances the overall graduate experience.
• Les Mackey from Fort Hays State University** emphasized the importance of connecting with a wide range of peers, faculty, and staff. Extending these connections beyond one's primary area of study can lead to unexpected opportunities and collaborations.

Seek Interdisciplinary Experiences

• Sam Fleischman provided a unique perspective on the value of interdisciplinary experiences. He argued that integrating different fields of study enriches one's education and broadens intellectual horizons. This approach not only makes individuals better professionals but also prepares them to tackle multifaceted challenges in the real world.

Network and Engage Professionally

• Jeremiah Nelson from Catawba College advised students not to overlook the importance of networking within their professional communities. Building connections beyond the academic environment can significantly impact career prospects.
• Tony Fraga from DD Agency** highlighted the importance of pairing academic achievements with industry-specific certifications. Earning certifications and adding them to your professional profiles can create a compelling advantage in the job market.

Focus on Personal Well-being

• Dr. Noranda Wright from Georgia Southern University spoke on the importance of balancing academic responsibilities with personal well-being. Graduate studies can be overwhelming, so it's crucial to recognize stress triggers and take necessary breaks. Maintaining wellness is key to sustaining long-term success.

Stay Inquisitive and Persistent

• Kandice King from the University of Rochester** encouraged students to remain inquisitive and persistent. Asking questions and constantly seeking knowledge can drive continuous personal and professional growth. This attitude is especially vital for PhD students who need to persevere through challenging research and experimentation.

Embrace and Expand Your Network

• Anna Marie Bliss from WashU in Saint Louis suggested that students keep open communication lines with faculty, colleagues, and staff while being open to new ideas and cultural perspectives. Expanding your network and being adaptable can lead to significant academic and professional growth.

The insights shared by the experts at the NAGAP 2024 Conference offer a comprehensive blueprint for maximizing academic and professional success in graduate school. By leveraging campus resources, engaging with mentors, building communities, exploring interdisciplinary experiences, and maintaining personal well-being, students can navigate their graduate journeys with confidence and purpose. Whether you are just beginning your studies or are well on your way, these strategies provide valuable guidance to help you succeed.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. And this week, we've got a special episode of a number of different people that I had the chance to meet at the 2024 nag app conference. And if you've never heard of NAGAP, NAGAP is the National Association For Graduate Enrollment Management And graduate enrollment professionals come together every year at their annual conference to be able to talk about how to support graduate students like yourself. And at this conference, I talked to a number of different people and asked them the question of what key strategies or actions should students undertake during graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? This show is all about success, and every week I wanna bring you different thoughts, ideas, perspectives. And today, you've got a whole slew of a number of different people that are going to be giving you just that. Their strategies, their thoughts on that specific question. You'll hear them answering the question in a lot of different ways. No editing has been happening in regard to what they said. And I wanted to make sure to share that with all of you. I hope you enjoy it and look forward to having you come back again next week for another great episode.

Anna Marie Bliss [00:01:31]: Hi. My name is Anna Marie Bliss, and I'm the associate director of recruitment and admissions at WashU in Saint Louis. My top three strategies or pieces of advice that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success would be to keep open lines of communication with staff and faculty and also their colleagues. The second one would be to be open minded and open to new ideas and different ways of thinking, especially as we think about different cultural upbringings and the ways that people are acting and engaging around us. And then finally, to seek mentorship from students who are more experienced, from faculty members, but also from key staff who are there to help aid in their success and think about career goals.

Bethany Satrom [00:02:12]: Hi. I'm Bethany Satrom from the Indiana University Bloomington campus. I'm an admissions manager, so I mostly process applications for our faculty to review and a lot of data work. I think the key strategy to or action that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success is to really utilize all the resources available on our campus, whether that be our career services hub or just talking with going to the networking events that we host in both in Bloomington and in other locations especially in their home cities or home countries. We try to be very involved in our international student life both on campus and off campus. I think students don't take as much advantage of that at the School of Public Environmental Affairs that I work at as much as they maybe could or should and so I think that there are other schools that maybe have a little more success with that, but I think that we're working on trying to implement more plans to make it more accessible and easier to obtain these resources.

Brett DiMarzo [00:03:16]: Hi. I'm Brett DeMarzo. I'm the director of digital strategy and graduate enrollment at Boston College. And to answer the question, what key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success is really to invest in the time and the effort into taking the most out of their experience. Talking with professors, getting into the academic curriculum, really putting their whole heart into the entire experience so that they really get the value out of that program.

Brian Desrosiers-Tam [00:03:49]: Hi. My name is Brian Desrosiers Thame. I am assistant dean at the School of Graduate Studies at the University of Toronto. What key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize your academic and professional success? Well, I have three thoughts that I'm happy to share. I think as a graduate student who joins a new school, a new program, you know, you should make sure that you maximize all available resources that are available to you. Think about the writing center, the professional services that exist. So just make sure you'll learn about them during your orientation, and once you do, make sure you access them. The second one I think would be find your community and be part of it. Even though you may be in a remote, hybrid, or in person event, make sure you stay engaged with the community. Get to know your graduate administrators, your graduate coordinators or chairs, but also your fellow students. And a good way to do that is to, even in grad school, join some clubs, some organization, and just be sure to be present. And then by developing that sense of community, you'll have peers, colleagues who will be there to help you in the good and in the bad times. So good luck.

Corey Carey [00:04:49]: My name is Corey Carey, and I'm a grad and online enrollment professional from John Brown University. And I would say that a key strategy that students should undertake during their grad studies to maximize academic and professional success is to seek out all of the things that universities offer but might not market. So different resources like academic advising, tutoring, things like that that are offered that maybe get lost in the shuffle of getting enrolled, getting getting ready for classes, getting your textbooks. So, if I were well, I am a graduate student and the things that I do is get online on my the portal that my university uses and just search every nook and cranny to find all the resources that are available to me because a lot of times resources will go untapped, unused just because students don't know about them. So that would be my advice to students is to seek out all the resources that university offers.

Daniel Truesdale [00:05:51]: My name is Daniel Truesdale. I'm the associate director of enrollment management at the University of Chicago for the applied data science program. Some of the advice I always give to incoming students, you have your formal support structures while you're in the program, but also make sure to take advantage of connecting with your professors and your faculty, especially from a networking perspective. Part of grad school isn't just the technical expertise that you're going to gain, but it's also the network and community that you're going to develop. So that's an amazing opportunity that you have to take advantage of. Also, remember not to kinda lose the forest amongst the leaves. More than likely, you're you're paying to be here. You're dedicating your time.

Daniel Truesdale [00:06:29]: We could be spent elsewhere. Make sure that you are gaining everything even outside outside of the curriculum that the program has to offer. So if that's organizations, if that's clubs, take advantage of those as well. So I always wanna press that because I think sometimes students forget that part of a graduate education is not just what you're gonna learn in the classroom, but the community and friendships you're gonna develop outside as well. So that would probably be my biggest advice for grad students.

Jamie Gleason [00:07:00]: I'm Jamie Gleason from DD Agency. The question is what key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize academic or professional success? And I would really lean into 2 things. Graduate studies is all about network creation. So find the smartest person in your classes and get to know them more. And then ask your faculty members about internship experiences that might be applicable to the classes that you're taking, and then really dig into the things that you love and find experience work experiences in those areas to flesh out your love a little bit more.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:07:38]: I'm Jeremiah Nelson. I am the outgoing immediate past president of NAGAP and a faculty member at Catawba College, Kettner School of Business. And the strategies that I recommend for my graduate students are focused on not forgetting that their academic experience is not the only experience with being a graduate student. To maximize their success, what they also need to do is to network and to engage in their professional communities. It doesn't matter how smart you are if people don't know who you are. And so you need to make sure that you are both building your skills, but also that you are getting out into the world, engaging with your professional community, and making connections so that when it's time for a job that you're ready and that people are recommending you.

Kandice King [00:08:27]: Hi. My name is Kandice King. I am with University of Rochester's School of Medicine and Dentistry in Rochester, New York. As the director of graduate enrollment at SMD, I am, often asked by students about what kind of strategies they might utilize to maximize their success. And since we recruit for PhD students where we have a lot of persistence that is necessary in the success of experimentation and advancing science, always ask questions. Continue to build your persistence and continue to be inquisitive and curious throughout your graduate study and that will help you with both your academic and your personal success.

Keith Ramsdell [00:09:07]: Hi, I'm Keith Ramsdell and I'm the vice president for enrollment management and marketing at Ashland University in Ashland, Ohio and I've been in that role for about oh three and a half years now and I'm pleased to answer this question the question specifically is what key strategies or action should students take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? Now I think the one of the biggest things is to work constantly and regularly with your academic advisor unlike undergraduate programs where you're working oftentimes with a professional advisor which is great, on the graduate side, the focus really is with academic professionals who are in your area of study who can really give you some wise direction, wise counsel on the courses to take, why those courses are being taken, who to take and those types of things. They're also probably the best connected people to help you find employment after you're done certainly I know on our campus our career center for life calling also assists graduate students with finding employment when they're completed with their programs, but really those who are best connected to help you after you're done with your program are gonna be your faculty, those are the folks who have very likely been out in the field, they're connected in one way or another through their professional associations and through other networks that they've built, they can be a great resource for you and that's the direction I would encourage you to go.

Les Mackey [00:10:31]: Hey there. This is Les Mackey, and I currently work with the Graduate School at Fort Hays State University. So the question, maximizing academic and professional success in graduate studies. Gosh. So many things. I guess I'll kind of split some 2 things and I'll start with the academic success side of this. First off, I think it's important to get out there and just be open to new knowledge and learning. Be open to new experiences altogether and don't be afraid to get out of your comfort zone. At this point, when you get into grad school, you've already been in school for pretty long time. But in terms of just college, you've already been in college for 3, 4 years. And it's easy to get comfortable and complacent with what you do know, but it's okay not to know everything. I think one of the biggest things you can learn, and I learned in grad school, is that it's okay to say, I don't know, but I would like to. Maintain that growth mindset and stay curious. Now, looking at the professional success side of this, connect with faculty, staff, peers, and don't limit yourself to just your primary area of study or just your department at your institution. Get out there and connect with everybody. If you get the opportunity to attend a conference, whether it's to present research or for professional development purposes, connect with as many attendees as possible. If the chance ever arises to connect with alumni, go for it. Grow your network in the most meaningful way you can so you can leverage these connections during and beyond grad school. Any of these people could be a potential supervisor or colleague in the future, so take advantage of those opportunities.

Marcus Hanscome [00:11:59]: I'm Marcus Hanscomb. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at DD Agency, and I'm 17 and a half years out of the higher ed side and working in universities with students. And students who wanna maximize their opportunities for academic professional success, there's opportunities certainly with graduate student associations and student clubs and certainly academic organizations if possible. So I always encourage students to take advantage of that in their time. And sometimes students are busy, so they find ways to not do those things. But also taking advantage of the opportunity to maybe volunteer for research even. There's a lot of things that are built into an academic program that students obviously have to do, but the students that really succeed and do well in the long term are the ones that jump a little bit further. They take that opportunity to volunteer with different faculty, maybe try something different than the research that they're used to, just to expose them to other areas of the discipline. Sometimes students really find something that interests them and then that kind of points them in a different direction, particularly for dissertations or thesis research later on. So students really kind of expand are gonna do the best in the long run, and I encourage them to do that.

Dr. Noranda Wright [00:12:55]: Hi. I'm Dr. Noranda Wright, associate dean of graduate student services at Georgia Southern University. And I think some of the key strategies or actions that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional studies range from providing, professional mentors to help them balance their self, look for a balance in higher education in their studies, figure out what works for them, what doesn't work, see what the institution is offering for them to help them in their academic and their professional studies. A lot of times students are trying to overwhelm themselves to get things done instead of taking a break when it's needed. They need to focus on their wellness while they're doing their graduate studies. It's a lot to be a graduate student and to be successful in academics and your professional life. So finding that balance where they can take time for themselves and be able to remove themselves from situations that causes them stress and realize that what what triggers them for that. So I think that's one of the biggest things that they can use as strategies, finding themselves, knowing what their triggers are when they're going through stressful situations, when they're studying or writing papers, find that time to disconnect for a few minutes and just kinda recenter and refocus themselves.

Philip Guerrero [00:13:59]: My name is Philip Guerrero. I'm the graduate program administrator for geosciences at the University of Texas at Austin. What key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? Probably top on the list as it is for any profession or individual in their jobs or jobs of the future is to network and to know as many people as they can. I always advise graduate students in my program to talk to career services, find out who are the people they need to talk to, where they're going to work, what kind of industry they're going to work in, and make those connections. They should also talk to their current faculty. Their faculty had to go to graduate school at some point, so they know about opportunities and how to be successful in their academic careers and professionally as well.

Sam Fleischman [00:14:49]: Samuel Fleischman. Normally go by Sam Fleischman. When I think about what students should think about when doing their graduate studies to find success both academically and professionally, I think about as much interdisciplinary work as possible. An engineer is not as good as an engineer that understands philosophy and literature. Somebody who cares about literature will write better stories when they understand the cultural dynamics of the other students in other colleges. So as much as universities can support the intersectionality, inter correspondence, interdisciplinary approach to help people take their level of expertise, which they are growing in, and align it with other people who are just as passionate about what they're growing in, I think the world will be a better place.

Sarah Lemus [00:15:40]: Hello. I'm Sarah Lemus. I'm a graduate admissions coordinator. And to answer this question would be to have students more engaged in organizations, clubs, participate in different social events to network. And so just to, again, make those connections outside of their labs and just be able to come into contact with other people to help them perhaps in the future on their professional and academic success.

Tony Fraga [00:16:13]: My name's Tony Fraga. I am the CEO of DD Agency, and I'm gonna answer a question here about key strategies and actions that I think students should undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success. And you've invested so much in this graduate program, you're working hard to do it, but you need to pair it with practical industry specific certifications. The ones that you literally could put as like badges on your LinkedIn profile. You pair those certifications with your graduate degree, and that's a one two combo that employers can't say no to.

Sarah Wanger [00:16:49]: Hello. I'm Sarah Wenger. I'm the executive director of the Kelly Direct online MBA at the Kelly School of Business at Indiana University. One key strategy or action I think the graduate student should take is making sure before you begin your studies to think about who your champion's gonna be, to think through the person, the people, the group, the resource that you're gonna use to get yourself through your program. When I went through school, I had a mentor and I made sure that I utilized her throughout my graduate studies and on through my doctorate to just talk to and ask questions and really just make sure that I was on the right track.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a journey marked by substantial growth, rigorous academic challenges, and opportunities to make a lasting impact. For Nia Ahart, a 2nd-year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey has been particularly enlightening and transformative. In a revealing conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, host of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Nia shared her experiences, insights, and the keys to her success. This blog delves into these topics, offering a comprehensive guide for those considering or participating in graduate education.

Finding the Spark: Discovering a Passion for Physical Therapy

Early Inspirations

Nia's journey to choosing physical therapy as her career path began early, rooted in her family's involvement in sports. Her brother, a baseball player at Akron, and Nia herself both encountered shoulder injuries requiring rehabilitation. This early exposure to physical therapy sparked her curiosity and desire to specialize in a field that would help athletes return to their optimal performance.

A Personal Experience

Continuing her athletic career in college, she played basketball at Colgate University and Northern Illinois University. She dealt with various injuries, spending significant time in training and physical therapy. These experiences deepened her appreciation for the field, particularly the non-invasive treatments that allowed her to avoid potentially career-ending surgery. This personal success in rehabilitation cemented her commitment to physical therapy.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program: A Thoughtful Decision

Evaluation Criteria

Selecting a graduate school is often a complex decision. For Nia, the choice was influenced by several critical factors, including faculty expertise, opportunities for specialization in sports therapy, and connections within the industry. She initially compiled a list of schools meeting these criteria and engaged in extensive research to narrow down her options.

Coming Back Home

The University of Michigan Flint emerged as the top choice due to its strong faculty-student relationships, comprehensive support systems, and the unique opportunity to partake in the pro bono heart clinic. Moreover, her personal ties to Michigan, including her mother's alma mater and her uncle's coaching role, reinforced her decision to return home.

Navigating the Transition: From Undergraduate to Graduate Studies

Adjusting to New Academic Demands

Transitioning from undergraduate work to a graduate program presents challenges, notably the shift in academic expectations and teaching methods. For Nia, the biggest adjustment was managing her time effectively. In undergraduate studies, her schedule was dictated by sports commitments and coursework. However, in graduate school, she found herself with more unstructured free time that needed careful planning.

Strategies for Success

Nia emphasized the importance of using a planner to organize her time, combining digital and physical to-do lists to keep track of assignments, volunteer opportunities, and exams. Establishing a study routine at the semester's beginning and setting aside time for self-care and relaxation were also crucial.

Embracing Leadership and Diversity: Building Community

Initiating Change

Recognizing the importance of diversity and inclusion in healthcare, Nia co-founded and presided over the Wolverine BIPOC Healthcare Collective in her first year. This club aimed to provide a supportive community for students of color and foster a network of future healthcare professionals committed to serving diverse patient populations.

Impactful Work

Through meetings, guest speakers, and community partnerships, the club has made significant strides in creating a sense of belonging and promoting inclusivity within the program. Nia's efforts in this area earned her the Diversity and Inclusion Award from Exat, an honor recognizing her dedication to fostering a more inclusive healthcare environment.

Looking to the Future: Career Aspirations and Advice

Evolving Aspirations

As Nia progresses through her program, her career aspirations have evolved. Initially, she dreamed of working with top-tier sports teams like the NBA or NFL. However, exposure to various patient demographics and clinical settings has opened her mind to other possibilities within outpatient care and sports therapy.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Nia's journey offers several valuable lessons for prospective and current graduate students. Key among these is not to overly stress about the graduate school process. Having a support network, finding an accountability buddy, and discovering one's preferred learning style early on can significantly ease the transition and improve academic performance.

Graduate school is a challenging yet rewarding journey that requires a blend of passion, dedication, and effective time management. Nia Ahart's story is a testament to the remarkable opportunities and growth that come with embracing these challenges head-on. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from her experience, using her insights as a roadmap to navigate their own paths to success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are going through this graduate school exploration. And it is a process. It is something that will take some people a couple of years, some people a few months, some people a few days. You never know. But for a lot of people, it is definitely a process, and it is a journey as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: So as you are going through this journey, there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now to be able to help you to start on that path towards success in getting into graduate school, getting through graduate school, and being able to get out into the career that you want to be in. That's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you on that journey. It's here to help you to learn and to grow from other people that have gone before you, that are in graduate school right now, that are that have been in graduate school in the past and can provide you with some insights, some tools for your toolbox, some things that will help you to be able to set yourself up for that success that you wanna see. Today, we got another great guest with us. Nia Ahardt is with us today, and Nia is a 2nd year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint. I am really excited to have her here today to share her journey with you and to provide you with some of the things that she's learned along the way. Nia, thanks so much for being here today.

Nia Ahart [00:01:54]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I first love doing is being able to turn the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at Colgate University, and you got that bachelor's degree, the bachelor's of arts in biology there. And then you took a little bit of time and went and played some basketball for Northern Illinois University and finished up some of your pre physical therapy, to PT programs. But I wanna go back. Let's go back to Colgate University, maybe even before that, and talk to me about that spark, that moment that you figured out for yourself that you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's degree, and you wanted to go into physical therapy. What led you to that, and what led you to decide that physical therapy was the path that you were on?

Nia Ahart [00:02:46]: So I actually started pretty young. So I grew up in a sports family, and my brother is just my role model. So he played bass baseball at Akron, and he tore his labrum. And at the same time he was 7 years apart, so I was young. I had a shoulder injury too, and we were doing physical therapy at the same time. So I was able to see his rehab, see his recovery. And then with myself, I noticed that the physical therapy that I was receiving wasn't specific to returning to sport. It was more so returning to daily life, and that's what intrigued me.

Nia Ahart [00:03:22]: It's like, oh, maybe I could do something that could get an athlete back to their original skill set, so that's where it in, interests me. And and like you said, I did play basketball in college at Colgate in Northern Illinois, and I dealt with a lot of injuries myself. I had stayed in the trainer room, stayed with physical therapy, so it just continued my interest. But I was able to go through physical therapy and avoid a potentially career ending surgery, and that's where I just fell in love, where I can save somebody from having surgery or having an invasive procedure, and I can recover and rehab their injuries back to their sport. And I was able to successfully play my last year because of it. So that is where I wanted to continue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]: Now I mentioned that you had gone to Northern Illinois. You finished up playing your last year of basketball there. And during that time, you were taking a number of prerequisites, getting those prerequisites done so you could apply for physical therapy school. And as you were finishing those up and going into the application process, I'm sure you did a lot of looking around and a lot of exploration to try to determine where you wanted to apply. And you ultimately decided to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. Talk to me about that thought process, that exploration process, what you were looking for in schools, and what made the University of Michigan Flint stand out, and what made you decide that that was the ultimate school that you wanted to attend?

Nia Ahart [00:04:54]: It started off with that 5th year. I originally made a list of schools that had PT programs that I was interested in going to just had connections to both a good faculty and advisor standpoint as well as people that specialize in sports, which I'm hoping to get into, with physical therapy. So that's where I originally started. As I continue my application process, I realized since I was away from school for the past or away from Michigan for the past 5 years, I really wanted to come back home. My mom is a Michigan grad, My uncle was a track coach at Michigan, so I really wanted to come back home, spend some time with my family. And I just loved when I went to the open house, how connected the faculty was with the students. And it seemed like they had a great advisor student relationship, as well as a lot of peer to peer opportunities. And the thing that really stood out about Michigan's program was the pro bono clinic at heart.

Nia Ahart [00:05:50]: Just being able to work with patients real time as we're learning the material as and we can see it in person and develop our clinical skills while still developing our didactic portion. I've, it was really exciting, and I love every bit about it. So that is what solidified it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:07]: So you made that transition. And you've had a number of transitions going from Colgate to Northern Illinois, to then physical therapy school. So you probably have some idea of what it takes to be able to go from school to school. But still, in going from undergraduate work and being taught in that way to going into a physical therapy doctorate program is very different. You're taught in a different way. The expectations are different. So again, can sometimes be a stark transition when you step into that type of learning environment. Talk to me about that transition for you and what did you have to do as you transitioned in to the program to find success in that journey? And what have you had to do as you've gone along to be able to both set yourself up and continue that success throughout the program.

Nia Ahart [00:07:00]: The biggest thing for me was time management. In undergrad, since I played a sport, everything was planned out for me. I had a set schedule. I had a lot of free time, but I had to learn the skills to time manage and get things done with practice and lift. I think coming into grad school, it was new because I was just I was a student. Like, I didn't have to worry about going to practice. I didn't have to worry about missing school for gains, And I had a lot of free time that I wasn't used to. So just being able to develop a plan to get all my schoolwork done, still have time for me to take care of myself, do self care, work out was really big for me.

Nia Ahart [00:07:40]: I am blessed to have the foundation I had from sports and from high school too, but definitely time management. That has been a very big skill and has propelled me to succeed in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:52]: As you talk about time management, are there specific things that you did to be able to not only manage your time well, but be able to really allow for you to go from that where you said that people were scheduling your time to now you having to do that yourself and having to really get yourself into that different mode. Are there specific things that you did to be able to help you to manage that well?

Nia Ahart [00:08:18]: So my roommate actually got me into using a planner. I used to just use my to do list on my iPhone and just cross things out because I had so much time between assignments. But actually, planning out my life weekly and monthly has been really helpful just to see it on paper and just satisfying to cross things off by hand. I still keep my to do list on my iPhone, but it's nice to have a physical copy. And I would just say organizing myself at the beginning of the semester is something that I always have done, but just going through my syllabi and just right now, all the major assignments we have to do, right now, all of the volunteer opportunities that I signed up for, just having a sheet, a calendar for the whole semester really helps me stay focused and stay on track. Personally, I can work pretty much everywhere. I definitely need my free time just to relax, but thankfully for me, I can work and watch a little episode. So it's nice to have that self motivation to be able to work wherever.

Nia Ahart [00:09:17]: I think that has set me apart for sure and has made me less stressed because I am very flexible in my studies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: Now recently, we heard that you were being recognized with a scholarship from Exat. And if you don't know what Exat is, Exat's a company that is focused on giving health science students in individuals in academia what they're looking for by providing education management solutions. Now, Nia, you were awarded the, Diversity and Inclusion Award, and this honors students that are promoting diversity and inclusion in the healthcare workforce. Talk to me about that, that award that you receive. And what did you do to be able to allow yourself to be considered for this award?

Nia Ahart [00:10:04]: It was a great opportunity, the Diversity Inclusion Award. I had to fill out an application and go present it to our faculty, and they read our essays before selecting someone. So thankfully, I received the award. So this year, I started a diversity or BIPOC healthcare club called the Wolverine BIPOC Healthcare Collective. As 1st year, myself and Zoe Humes, we are cofounders and I'm the president. So we came in as 1st year, then we realized the lack of diversity within the program. And it's just important to have a space where we can be ourselves and have community and network to become developing health care clinicians so we can help all patients, but especially patients that look like us. So I was fortunate enough to start a club, and it's been going well.

Nia Ahart [00:10:53]: We had our first meeting in January, and we've had meetings since. And we're starting to grow both physical therapy and occupational therapy. We're bringing in guest speakers, so that was in partnering community events around us and community partners. So that was a really big point in my application of this club, and it wasn't new to me to be a part of something like this. I was an ambassador in undergrad for something similar for athletes of color. But this is my first time starting this with my roommate, but from the ground up, starting in my 1st year with a lot of new changes. And it was pretty early on that we got the ball rolling in the semester. So I think just showing the initiative and just creating the space for support with fellow BIPOC members of the community was great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Now not every student will jump into getting involved in that way. They'll find other ways to get involved in going and taking advantage of something like you mentioned, heart, which is a pro bono clinic that students can be a part of, or they may find other things that are specifically tailored to their organization. So I commend you for putting something out there, starting something new, and being willing to jump into it with such gusto as a way to be able to allow for others to build and maintain community with individuals like themselves, because I think that's really important. Now you're working through this program. You're moving into your 2nd year within the PT program. That second year of the PT program brings more opportunities for clinical experiences, and then you'll have an even broader experiences in your 3rd year. As you're looking toward the future and now that you have a year under your belt, what are you thinking of the future? And do you have ideas of where you may end up in a few years and where you want to be as a physical therapist?

Nia Ahart [00:12:48]: So I'm really excited about the future. Going into the program, I was set. I thought that I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I thought that I wanted to be with the NBA or NFL sports team. And now they say that it changes a lot during school, and I have definitely I was like, oh, I know what I'm doing. But I am definitely more open minded about what I wanna go into. I still wanna stay in the sports realm. It's not the NFL NBA dreams are not off the table, but I think I'm more open to having, like, a outpatient or specific path.

Nia Ahart [00:13:19]: That's where I am at now, but we'll see. We have 2 more years and 4 more clinicals. But I just think the exposure to different realms of patients and pathways in the program is great. And it just allows you to explore things that you've never you would have never thought to go into or explore yourself. So I'm very appreciative, and honestly, I currently work at a hospital as a tech, so having that experience on top of the clinical experiences and heart as well has really opened my eyes to different pathways in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way, things that have helped you to be successful. As you look back to your 1st year, as you're moving into your 2nd year, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education in general? Doesn't mean that someone's considering physical therapy per se, but just in general for graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals that would help them find success sooner?

Nia Ahart [00:14:20]: I think for me, the biggest thing is to not stress yourself out. I tell all the incoming 1st years that are freaking out about the process, I think it it'll all work itself out. Whatever happened, it's meant for you. I also think the big thing that has helped me is that I had a buddy. We have accountability buddies, and I happen to live with mine. So she is amazing. But just to have somebody and a group of friends that you can bounce ideas off of and go through the study process and learn material different way is really big. And also, finding out how you learn, because everyone learns differently.

Nia Ahart [00:14:53]: And with graduate school, it's important to find that on early on, so you're not kinda behind the boat when you're what ways you learn best and what time schedule works best for you for studying. Some people can study all day. Some people need select time. I think that is really key for success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:17]: Well, Nia, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for what you're doing to be able to bring students together here at the University of Michigan Flint. But also thank you for the work that you're doing out in the community and and engaging with individuals. And I truly wish you all the best.

Nia Ahart [00:15:33]: Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, we sit down with Dr. Emma Davis, an accomplished academic who traversed an unconventional path in higher education. With an undergraduate degree in English and journalism, a master's in liberal studies, and a PhD in dance, Dr. Davis embodies the transformative journey of higher education. This blog post expands on her insightful conversation, charting her unique pathway and offering valuable advice for aspiring graduate students.

Following the Academic Passion

From Undergrad to Master's Degree

Dr. Emma Davis first discovered her passion for higher education during her undergraduate years at the University of Michigan Flint, where she majored in English and journalism while minoring in dance. Realizing that she wanted to work in higher education, she observed her faculty members' academic journeys, which often included a master's degree in fine arts (MFA).

Initially aspiring for an MFA herself, Dr. Davis encountered setbacks during the application process. However, her mentor, Dr. Loren Friesen, guided her toward the Master of Liberal Studies with a concentration in theater culture at the University of Michigan Flint. This program provided her with a foundation in American culture, critical thinking, and an appreciation for cross-disciplinary academic dialogues.

The Leap to a Doctorate

After completing her master's degree, Dr. Davis faced another pivotal decision – choosing a PhD program. Despite her broad academic background, she opted for a doctorate in dance, recognizing that a specialized degree would align more closely with her goals in higher education. Her thorough research revealed only a handful of PhD programs in dance across the United States, eventually leading her to Texas Women's University's low-residency program, allowing her the flexibility to continue teaching while pursuing her doctorate.

Navigating Unconventional Paths

Adapting During COVID-19

Dr. Davis began her PhD in June 2020, amidst the global pandemic. The low-residency program she enrolled in typically required a mix of in-person and online learning. However, the pandemic pushed her cohort to adapt to fully online coursework. Weekly virtual classes supplemented their independent research, fostering a strong sense of community and support that might not have existed in a traditional setting.

Embracing Nontraditional Approaches

Reflecting on the shifts and adaptations, Dr. Davis emphasized the value of nontraditional educational paths. Her experiences highlight that flexibility and resilience are key to thriving in graduate school, especially for those juggling multiple roles and responsibilities

Insights and Practical Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Preparation and Self-Discovery

Transitions between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral programs can be challenging. Dr. Davis advises students to see each degree as a stepping stone, allowing life and academic experiences to shape their educational journey. She stresses the importance of taking time to reflect and recover between programs, enabling students to assimilate and grow from each step.

Integration of Diverse Experiences

Dr. Davis leverages her multifaceted academic background in her current role as an instructor, blending dance, literature, research, and cultural analysis. Her unique educational path allows her to enrich her teaching with a broad perspective, benefiting her students and the academic community.

Advice for Prospective Grad Students

For students considering graduate education, Dr. Davis recommends a deeply personal approach. Listen to your heart, conduct thorough research, and visualize your path. Understand the commitment involved, including potential financial and mental health challenges. Above all, knowing why you are pursuing a graduate degree can provide the motivation and clarity needed to succeed.

Dr. Emma Davis' journey epitomizes the essence of "Victors in Grad School." Her story not only showcases the transformative power of graduate education but also serves as a guide for students navigating their own academic paths. By embracing flexibility, conducting thorough research, and following one's passion, prospective graduate students can set themselves on a successful and fulfilling academic journey. If you're contemplating your future in graduate education, reflect on Dr. Davis' insights and prepare to embark on your own path to success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are contemplating, working on wherever you are in this journey of getting in, getting through, getting done with grad school. Every week, we talk about things that you can do to be able to find success in that graduate school journey. And you might be at the very beginning just starting to think about grad school, might be thinking about maybe this is the time, maybe this is the right opportunity, and you're ready to put in that application. You might have already put that application in and you're waiting on the offer, the acceptance, or you got accepted, now you're waiting to start or you're in the program itself. And looking at that light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how far off it is, wherever you are, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]: And there are things that you can learn at the beginning and wherever you are in this journey to be able to help you to be successful. And that's why every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you, to share with you different resources, people, and share their journeys with you as well. That's what this show is all about. It's all about helping you find success. And today we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Emma Davis is with us today. And doctor Davis has a undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan Flint, but she also has a master's degree from the University of Michigan Flint, but then she pivoted and went and got a PhD in dance. And it's a journey that we're gonna be talking about because it is truly a journey for her, different pathways, some probably twists and turns along the way that we will talk about as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: And I'm really excited to have her share this journey with you and have her here today. Emma, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:01:59]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: It's my pleasure having you here today. As I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point in that journey, you got that bachelor of arts degree in English and journalism, and you also got a dance minor. You're busy, you had, and then you decided and you had an opportunity to, after a little bit of time, you've made a decision to go and get your master's degree and get your master's degree in liberal studies with a concentration in theater culture. Also here at the University of Michigan Flint. Every person finds the the timing and figures that out for themselves about why it's the right time. Bring me back to that point. What made you decide at that point that after being out of your bachelor's degree that you were ready to make that jump into getting your master's degree?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:02:52]: When I was in undergrad, that was when I realized that I wanted to be working in higher education. So I looked at my faculty members and saw the pathways that they took in the field of dance. That was a master's of fine arts. And I had a lot of people encouraging me to apply to an MFA, which is a terminal degree in the arts, which means that's the last degree that you need to get. And so a lot of people were actually encouraging me to apply to Ann Arbor and I did and I made it through the finals and I did not get in. So that was sad. That was sort of actually my first attempt at grad school and it was not successful. And so I was sort of lost and a mentor, Doctor.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:03:38]: Loren Friesen, who used to be the chair of the theater department. He was also the program coordinator for the theater culture part of the master's of arts and liberal studies at U of M Flint, and he was familiar with my work as an English major. I also wrote for the Michigan Times on campus. I worked at the writing center as a peer tutor. I crossed over into the theater side a lot, taking some theater classes. And, yeah, Doctor. Friesen was like, hey, check out this master's in liberal studies program because I think you should actually be going on to a PhD because of your background in writing. And I was like, oh, okay.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:04:23]: And I was really eager to go to continue my education. It was like, I need to be doing something. I want to be moving forward. So yeah, I did the liberal studies program and I really enjoyed it. It was super refreshing conversation with people that wanted to be there and have critical thinking skills and read about things and talk about them in our society. And so I got this really great foundation in American culture from that. And, so I suppose you could say the gap was because I was finding my way and that's where it led me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:57]: It led you to that master's degree program. You got through that master's degree program. And then after finishing that you chose to go for a doctorate in dance. Again, different direction. You had the minor in undergrad of dance, and you were doing some teaching in dance. So there is that connection there, but your master's was within theater culture. So again, a little bit different. So talk to me about first, let's talk about what made you decide a doctorate in dance versus, say, a doctorate in theater or some other direction?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:05:39]: I mean, yeah, because I actually did consider other types of PhDs. I have, you know, sort of a diverse, broad background in arts humanities. And so, yeah, I thought what happens if I do a PhD in theater, performance studies was another route to think about. The other faculty were sort of sharing with me. But dance has always been my thing. I mean, the reason I got an English degree well, of course, I like writing and reading, but I I thought it was the smarter thing to do than getting a degree in dance which is funny to get an English degree too but that's what I love, following my passion. And so I just did what I do. And I knew I wanted to work in higher ed, and so I just sort of thought about it strategically.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:06:20]: Yeah. I could. There are a whole lot of schools that have PhDs in theater. There's a number of schools that have PhDs in performance studies, but I thought, no, now is the time to do the focused part. Right? So if I'm trying to get a job teaching within a dance department, or being a direct being a director of a dance program is my ultimate goal. So I need the thing that says dance in it now at this point. And I just I researched PhD in dance programs. There's only about 4 or 5 in the United States.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:06:52]: One of those is low residency, and so that's where I ended up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:56]: I was just gonna ask you that question because you chose to go to Texas Women's University, and it's a long ways away from Flint. So I didn't know what went through your mind as you were contemplating those 4 or 5 programs that offered that PhD in dance.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:07:12]: Right. So I had the choice between going away or doing the low residency and the I see it as having more flexibility within your life to do low residency. But I wasn't opposed to going away because, honestly, I didn't really go away for undergrad or masters because I'm a native Michigander. And I did apply to schools where you would have to live there. I had an interview at Ohio State University, but low residency, it just worked for my lifestyle better. The other part of it was that I was already lecturing, teaching at U of M Flint. I actually applied before the pandemic. Right? And so we as how long have I been teaching then? Maybe 7 or 8 years, and I'm one of 2 dance faculty on campus.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:08:00]: So I'm a part of building this program, right, and it's my income. And it's still the thing I wanna be doing, teaching in higher ed. I wanted to keep my life, but also continue my education. So that led me to low residency. And, I mean, we can talk about what happened when COVID hit, but still low residency.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: Let's definitely talk about that because you definitely were going through the program during the pandemic. So talk to me about that transition for yourself and what that did for you or made you have to do as you had to pivot yourself in regards to having to learn in a different way?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:08:41]: I received my acceptance letter December 2019, and the way that the low residency program is, it begins in summer semester. So I was accepted in December, and then I started June 2020. So it was just a couple months after everything closed. So for people that are interested in low residency programs, the way that it's still doing this now, but I was just of course in that unique situation, but the way it's set up is you're on campus for a month in the summer. In my program, it's 3 summers. And then in the fall, you go to campus for a 1 week intensive. And then in the winter, which they actually call spring because it's in Texas, it's also another 1 week. So it's a 1 week, a month, and then a 1 week.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:09:28]: And what happens in between that is independent work. You're working on your research, you're working on the coursework, you're submitting your assignments online, and that's all cool. But what happened with my cohort was we couldn't meet in person. People didn't wanna fly across the country. We had somebody in Hawaii in our cohort too, so it was a lot for them to be traveling during COVID. So we kind of did the traditional online class thing where we met once a week and had an hour conversation and still did all of our work. But as far as adjusting, So we were So we were sort of supporting each other still through the coursework and the readings, which I'm not actually sure if that would be there if we had done the traditional way. So that's, like, my theme is everything nontraditional has been working for me.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:10:27]: So if you feel like you're a nontraditional person, just know that it can work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:31]: So let's talk about transitions because every time you go to a different type of degree, there are transitions. And the way that you're taught as a undergraduate student is different than the way that you're taught as a master's student, is different than the way that you're gonna be taught as a PhD student, and you have to adjust at each phase to be able to learn in a little bit different way. We talked about the fact that you had to learn in a little bit different way also when you're in the middle of a pandemic. But talk to me about what you had to do first in that master's grade, then in the PhD to be able to set yourself up in each of those different opportunities that you had to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout each of those journeys toward the end point, the end of the degrees.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:11:19]: Yeah. So the transition between degrees or perhaps some of that's happening while you're working on the degree as well. For me, I saw each degree as a stepping stone. And so maybe except for my original undergrad. No, I, I take that back. It's all stepping stones, right? You're working towards something. And at that time, I thought I was working towards being a journalist. And then I had some interviews and I was like, you know what? I'm not a 9 to 5 job kind of person.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:11:48]: Like, I'm an artist. I'm an educator. I'm not sitting at a desk 9 to 5. Not that that's what journalists do all day. So I think what I'm trying to say is that I had a little bit of life experience in between each degree. I know there's some people that you just go back to back, you're done with your undergrad and, oh, now you're going to start your master's the next year. And then, oh, now you're doing your doctorate or your PhD. That might work for some fields, maybe more STEM fields or traditional career oriented fields going into nursing or something.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:12:22]: But I don't know. I'm not in those fields, so I can't say totally. But I think that taking time just for a moment to sort of recover from, you know, to sort of close out one experience and then live life with that experience and let that evolve into the next thing that you're seeking and let your degree help you, that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:47]: You got that master's degree, you moved on to the PhD. Now you've been out for a little bit of time and you're still teaching. As you look back at the different steps that you took from undergrad to masters, to PhD, and you look at what you're doing today and the work that you're doing today, how do you feel that you're pulling from all of that different education to inform the work that you're doing as an instructor now?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:13:13]: I suppose at this point, I see it all as a process of emergence. Each part contributes to the whole experience. It's almost like a tripod in a sense, my undergrad experience, my master's degree, my PhD experience, and wouldn't be where I am without each of those. There's a lot going on there, right? How do we bring dance, English, research, writing, analysis, culture all together? Honestly, it makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a practicing artist. I still perform. I perform with Detroit Dance Collective as a company member. I perform with Tunde Olani Ram as a backup dancer.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:13:56]: And so honestly, it's about experience is really important, and it's taking each of those experiences into what you're doing. I noticed when I got to my PhD program, there's a lot of dancers and a lot of them have MFAs. And an MFA is more of a studio based degree. You're creating creative work in the studio. Your thesis is typically performance of some sort. And you do some research and there's a whole artistic process that you learn in an MFA program. But there wasn't a lot of writing and there wasn't a lot of reading. And I saw a lot of my peers and my cohort struggle with the reading and writing that time because it really trained me how to read and how to write and how to analyze things.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:14:51]: And then I was really appreciative that I had my experience in the liberal studies program because I had such a foundation in the idea of culture. And I also was allowed to sort of explore a couple of things that interested me. And that's when I really discovered feminism, right, in grad school. And so that really informs a lot of my research as well. So where am I at today? My dissertation is about the experience of dance and how it builds community for social change. So I really think about how dance is a vehicle to bring people together and how that coming together is its own process of emergence and how those moving together intentionally towards a purpose can help us change our thinking, change our behavior, change the way that we move in the world as a society. So that's where it's led me. And those are now the ideas that I take forward into my teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:53]: Now, as you look back at the experiences that you had in your own graduate school experiences and you think about other students, whether they be students going into the arts or some other area, what tips would you have for those individuals that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:16:12]: I mean, it's deeply personal, I think, first of all, because this is something that stays with you forever if you wanted to, but you always have your degree. And so, I mean, my non practical but practical advice is listen to your heart, follow your heart, do what seems right in the moment, sort of an intuition thing, but also do your research. Think about it, sit with it, research schools, visualize what you might be doing there. Talk to people. Think about why you're doing it. It's a commitment. A lot of people, I mean, honestly, a lot of people, right, have you could go into debt. You could have a mental health crisis.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:16:51]: It's it can be stressful. It can be very rewarding, but also be prepared and know why you're doing it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: Well, Emma, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and sharing the experiences that you had in the different graduate degrees that you were able to receive yourself, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:17:10]: Thank you so much for your interest. It's been a pleasure talking to you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate education is often seen as a pivotal point in advancing one's career and personal development. The journey, while arduous, offers substantial rewards and opportunities. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Cynthia McCurren shared her extensive experience in the field of nursing education, highlighting key elements that influence success in graduate school. Below, we distill some of her most valuable insights and advice for anyone considering or currently navigating the journey of graduate education.

The Spark: Recognizing the Need for Advanced Education

Dr. McCurren began her educational journey at the University of Missouri in Columbia, where she studied nursing. After working in the field for seven years, she realized that advancing her education was necessary for her career development and personal growth. She was motivated by a combination of intrinsic desire for knowledge and the practical need to meet the academic requirements for a faculty position in higher education.

For many, the decision to pursue graduate education often stems from a similar dual motivation. Whether it's the allure of expanding one's knowledge base or the necessity to advance in a chosen profession, identifying the underlying reasons for this pursuit can provide a strong foundation and a clear sense of purpose.

Balancing Life and Education: A Careful Juggle

One of the prevalent themes in Dr. McCurren's narrative is the challenge of balancing life responsibilities with academic pursuits. Being a married mother with young children, she had to consider factors such as geographic convenience, childcare, and financial stability when deciding where to continue her education.

Dr. McCurren's situation is not unique. Many graduate students face similar challenges. She advises a realistic approach: accept that life will never be without its complications and that there's no perfect time to return to school. Instead, focus on making the conditions manageable.

Key Tips:

• Seek Convenience: Opting for a geographically convenient school can alleviate commuting stress and time constraints.
• Plan Financially: Look for scholarships, grants, and part-time work opportunities to reduce financial burdens.
• Utilize Support Systems: Rely on family or social networks for childcare and other support to focus on academic responsibilities.

Embracing Research and Intrinsic Motivation

During her master's program, Dr. McCurren discovered an unexpected passion for research, which significantly shaped her career trajectory. The excitement of conducting original research and the desire to contribute new knowledge to the field of nursing propelled her forward, eventually leading her to pursue a PhD at the University of Kentucky.

Intrinsic motivation is crucial for success in graduate school. Pursuing an advanced degree simply for external rewards, such as job security or increased salary, may not sustain long-term commitment and enthusiasm. Dr. McCurren emphasizes the importance of finding genuine interest and value in your field of study.

Key Tips:

1. Find Your Passion: Engage deeply with your subject to uncover areas that genuinely excite you.
2. Commit to the Journey: Let intrinsic motivation drive you through challenging courses and research projects.

Overcoming Academic Hurdles: Discipline and Dedication

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate study requires a high level of self-discipline and dedication. Dr. McCurren stressed treating studies with the seriousness of a job. Setting aside dedicated time each day for study and ensuring a disciplined approach can help maintain academic success.

Moreover, understanding the value of every course, even those that seem tangential to your primary interests, can enrich your educational experience. For instance, Dr. McCurren highlighted the unexpected benefits of courses in philosophy and language proficiency during her PhD.

Key Tips:

Structured Schedule:

• Create and adhere to a consistent study schedule to manage time effectively.
• Open-Minded Learning: Approach every course with an open mind and a willingness to discover its value.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Dr. McCurren's experience offers practical advice for those considering graduate education. Talking to colleagues, seeking career coaching, and consulting with both educational institutions and employers are pivotal steps for a well-informed decision. Early planning and not postponing the pursuit of higher education can mitigate challenges and set the stage for a fruitful academic journey.

Key Tips:

• Early Preparation: Avoid waiting for the 'perfect time' to pursue further education.
• Consult Widely: Seek advice from a variety of sources to make informed decisions.

The path to graduate education is fraught with challenges, but with the right mindset and preparation, it can lead to immense personal and professional growth. Dr. Cynthia McCurren's journey underscores the importance of intrinsic motivation, disciplined study habits, and strategic planning. By embracing these principles, aspiring graduate students can navigate their educational journeys with clarity and purpose, ultimately achieving their academic and career goals.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being on this journey with you. This opportunity for us to talk every week about the opportunity to go and continue your education, but to do it in the right way and to prepare yourself for the things ahead. And there are things that you can do. There are things you can do right now, even before you step foot in that classroom, before you even decide to apply, to start thinking about your ultimate success in going through this journey. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: I bring you different people every week that have gone through different experiences that have led them to getting that graduate degree, to being successful in that graduate pathway for themselves. And they have done it and you can too. That's why every week we bring you those people so that you can hear them, learn from them and be able to go from there to be able to add some tools to your toolbox and be able to then prepare yourself even more for the application and for the journey itself. We've got another great guest with us today. Doctor Cynthia McKiernan is with us today. She is the Dean of the School of Nursing at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have her here and for sharing her journey with you. Cynthia, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:01:37]: It's my delight. Look forward to sharing my experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: Now I know that you started your journey University of Missouri in Columbia, and you ended up going there, you decided to study nursing, you ended up graduating from that program worked for a number of years. And at some point during that time, you were out in the workforce, you were working as a nurse, and there had to been some kind of inkling, something that made you decide that it was time, it was time to continue my your education. Talk to me about that moment, that spark, that thing that made you decide, I wanna go further.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:02:15]: Actually, I I have made this decision to go to graduate school twice in my life. So once to pursue my master's of science in nursing and then ultimately to pursue my PhD in nursing. But my first decision to do the master's degree came about 7 years after I had completed my baccalaureate degree, after I had had several years of clinical experience, had done some part time teaching in a baccalaureate program, the clinical education component. And I became very aware that if I wanted to continue with having an opportunity to serve as a faculty member in higher education, I was going to have to advance my degrees. So that was one reason. But the second reason was I was just highly motivated, had a lot of intrinsic motivation to want to advance my knowledge. I wanted to have a greater understanding of underlying mechanisms from a pathophysiological perspective, pharmacological, etcetera, behind the conditions in which I found myself working with as a nurse. And I also had great admiration for those nurses who I had the honor of working with who had that kind of knowledge.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:03:26]: And it was like, I wanna grow up and be like you sort of a phenomena. So I knew that by going back and advancing my education, I could attain that greater breadth of knowledge and also attain advanced clinical skills so that I could have different kinds of clinical positions within the care delivery system. So that was my real motivation. While I was pursuing my master's degree at the University of Missouri in Columbia, I finished the requirements to be what was a title called a clinical nurse specialist for adult nursing. But surprisingly, I became quite bitten, if you will, by the excitement of research. In my master's program, we have a lot of intensive focus on learning how to be a researcher. We had to do an independent original research project for our thesis. We had a fair amount of statistical requirements in that degree program, and I actually conducted an original study and published it.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:04:29]: So all that was very exciting for me. Ultimately, I did secure a position in a university that was a research one level university. By then, I had moved out of the state of Missouri and was living in Louisville, Kentucky, and I was working at the University of Louisville. And I knew that in order to keep a faculty position, number 1, I had to have a PhD. So part of it was just knowing if I wanted to continue in that kind of a faculty capacity, I would need my PhD. But I also worked with colleagues that I respected and I wanted to be like them. Again, I'm motivated by what my colleagues are able to do, and they were very experienced in executing their ability as a researcher in addition to being a faculty member. And I wanted to have parity with them.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:05:19]: I wanted to be able to contribute to new knowledge for nursing and understand how to do that in ways more advanced than what I'd gotten in my master's program. So that was my real drive to go back and get my PhD.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:34]: So talk to me about I know that you like I said, you got your bachelor's degree and your master's degree at the same institution. It probably had some options and you could have chosen to go somewhere else and get a different experience. So let's first talk about the master's degree. And what made you decide to stay at the same institution versus going somewhere

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:05:54]: else? Well, I think I'm not unlike many individuals, and I'll just say particularly women, probably. Because by this time, I was married. I did have a child. I had to think about the security of my husband's employment and where he worked, and I had to think about having resources available to me to for childcare. At so geographical convenience was part of why I chose to go back to the University of Missouri Columbia. And at the same time, I would never tell anyone, including I didn't tell myself that that's your only choice. So if it hadn't been known for its quality and its rigor, I wouldn't have gone there. So I I think I got all of it in one.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:06:44]: It was convenient geographically for me. It was about a 45 minute commute, so that was possible. And I lived in an area where I had some family members that could help me with child care as well as having child care established before I started back. And then, as I said, my husband could keep his employment, and we had secure income, and that was my choice for the University of Missouri Columbia.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:08]: Now you ended up deciding, you said you got those experiences in research that kind of pushed you further, and you wanted to go further the talk to me about the decision there because you ended up going to the University of Kentucky. Again, there are other programs across the nation. You were going to this program was away from where you went for your bachelor's and master's. So what were you looking for in that PhD? And what made you decide to ultimately attend the University of Kentucky?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:07:45]: So one of the things that surprised me in my master's program, I didn't expect that my population of interest that I was doing my research on is I turned to geriatrics, and I didn't expect that going in. It just was an interest that developed. So when you are seeking your PhD, you're looking for a place where there are individuals who have like expertise within the graduate program so that they'll be good mentors and can help you with that. So I was fortunate in that once again, by the time I was seeking my PhD, which was about 5 years after I'd completed my master's, by then I had a second child. So and I was living in a state of where I had no family in Kentucky. As I said, we had moved to Louisville, and I needed to think about geographic convenience as well. Once again, my husband had a new position in Kentucky, and he traveled Monday through Friday. So I basically was like a single parent during the week.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:08:41]: So I needed to think about managing how I would go back and do this given my personal circumstances as well. So, actually, when I I mentioned that with the master's degree, you wanna ensure that you go to a program that's got quality and rigor and so forth, and there was not a PhD program in the state of Kentucky until the program opened at the University of Kentucky Kentucky in Lexington, And I was actually in the 1st cohort of nursing students. So I might've had some trepidation about that because it didn't have a reputation, if you will, as a program for getting a nursing PhD. However, the university itself and the graduate program has a very strong reputation. And of course, all PhD programs fall under the graduate school. And so there's lots of obligation to meet the expected criteria. So I had confidence because of that. And then there were individuals that did gerontological research.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:09:39]: And so that was another plus for me. I had, a colleague that lived in Louisville that also was going to be in this cohort so we could share transportation. Cost was a big problem for me at that time. So being able to share the cost of commuting, which was about an hour in this case, and also in state tuition was important for me at that point. So I really was grateful when a PhD program opened in the state that I could attend, and that was that was, a lot of it. And I was able to continue some part time employment with the University of Louisville because they certainly encouraged me to go back and get the doctoral degree. I was able to figure out my parenting responsibilities and have childcare and then have someone to commute with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: Now for each of these opportunities, these experiences that you had in graduate education, you had to make transitions. And the way that you are taught as a undergraduate student is different than the way you're taught as a master's student, is different than what you're taught as a PhD student. There's transitions amongst all of those, and you have to be able to set yourself up to be able to find success. So and you were able to find success, you've gone through those different programs. What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into these different programs and different experiences and different institutions? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:11:07]: I think the biggest focus I needed to have was self discipline. And I had to think about going to school like a job, if you will, in that if you have a job, you have to clock in at 8 o'clock, and you clock out at 5 o'clock, whatever or whatever your situation is. So I had to think about reserving time every day as if my studying and my success and my academic endeavor was like my job. And that was very it was it it's tempting if someone's not there. You don't have a task that you have to finish for your employer or whatever. It's it's tempting to be distracted, but you can't be. You have to really put your effort for it. The other thing is that sometimes we have to take courses that would they just don't appeal to us, And we're just not interested in them.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:11:54]: And it's very hard to focus or discipline yourself to want to study that. So I tried very hard to make sure that I really appreciated every course I was taking and strove to understand why it was valuable. So I always say, take your blinders off, you know, but keep your mind open to why you're taking a particular course. I'll just give you an example. One of the courses that you were required to take in your PhD program was a philosophy course. And I just could not get into that esoteric kind of a realm and and had a hard time figuring out how it was gonna help me in what I was pursuing trying to do. So I just I would share in dialogue with my colleagues and my cohort, and we really tried to learn to find the value of why we had to take that particular course. Another course that I had to take in my PhD program was I had to show proficiency in reading another language.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:12:44]: And I thought, why am I doing this? You know, it felt like a checkbox. But at the end of the day, there was value in that too. And I had to, again, just discipline myself to appreciate why I was being asked to do what I was asked to do. And then as I said, disciplining my time. The other thing was controlling how much time I worked, my actual employment. And I knew I couldn't continue to work 40 hours a week and also be successful in graduate school. So in my master's and my doctoral program, both, I worked very part time. I was very lucky that I was able to apply for both of my degrees.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:13:22]: I was able to get a federal nurse scholarship, and it completely it was a traineeship, and it paid for all my tuition. I never paid a dime for either one of my graduate degrees in terms of tuition. And even in my master's program, I got $250 a month, I remember as a stipend as well. So I was very, very fortunate for that. But any way that you can seek scholarships or opportunities to help offset the cost of tuition, that takes a great burden off of you in terms of your worry or your ultimate debt, and also how many hours you have to work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: Now I know throughout your career, you've had a lot of opportunities to be able to work your way up in regards to leading different nursing endeavors at different institutions. You've been an interim dean. You've been deans at other institutions. You've even been the president of the Michigan Association of the College of Nursing. You've gotten very involved at the national level with the Association For Nursing as well. You've been very involved in the profession itself, and you've worked with many students along the way at different levels. You've engaged with different students at different levels and probably seen students come in and struggle and have their own challenges. As you're working with students, as you're working with the faculty that you work with now and they're working with students, what are some of the biggest challenges that you're seeing with students entering into graduate study right now? And what would you say to them?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:14:52]: Well, some of what I was just alluding to, I I think one of the biggest challenges is always the cost and how much they continue to try to work while they're trying to do their graduate education. So I think you have to be very thoughtful about intentionally recognizing what your challenges are going to be once you decide that you wanna go back and pursue your education. And there's no reason to fool yourself that they're not gonna be a problem or that they're gonna go away. You have to be intentional about planning for how you're gonna manage them. So I don't think I'm unlike many individuals who come in to advance their education in nursing. Even though there's been a number of years ago that I did my graduate work, students still have to worry about those same issues. Most of us, by the time in nursing that we're pursuing graduate education, we've started families. We have children.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:15:39]: We have those obligations. Our lifestyle and our commitments are already dependent on our income. So we have to think about how are we going to manage that? I think, how do you do that? Well, being intentional about what it is you're going to pursue. You don't go back and pursue a graduate degree just because you think it'll help your work schedule. Like, if I have a graduate degree, I can work Monday through Friday and not have 247 obligations, which many nurses in different kinds of staff positions have. So that can't be your driving force. You need to work with your employer. I think it's very wise to have some career coaching, become aware of what are the possibilities in nursing education and in my career, and what should I pursue that are really helped me get there.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:16:24]: And then in that coaching or, working with a consultant is what what are ways that I can do that, and how can I make it manageable to fit my lifestyle or or my commitments that I have? And also those individuals can begin to direct you towards ways that you can get sources for scholarships or loans that are feasible. And there are quite a few in nursing and particularly right now at the state and the federal level that they're trying to draw individuals into the profession, that they're trying to create financial support. So those are some things I think are really important for them to think about. The other thing is don't put off seeking your graduate education. Many of us keep waiting for the perfect time. So when we first graduate, we think, oh, I'm I'm done. I don't wanna go back to school, but be thoughtful. Be thoughtful early before you have some of the commitments that you have, if at all possible.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:17:18]: And if you look at other graduate degrees in healthcare disciplines, they're going straight from their baccalaureate into their graduate work. So whether it's a physician or a physical therapist or whatever, they're going usually going straight on into their advancing their education, whereas nurses enter professionally at the baccalaureate level. So it's a bigger challenge for us to figure that out. But if you keep waiting for the perfect time in your life when you have no obligations, that doesn't happen either. It's always something that makes it not the perfect time. So just try to think about if it's not perfect, then how will I make it so that it's manageable? And I can pursue this full time. I can probably pursue it part time if I need to. Consultation from your educational program that you choose and consultation from your employer about how they'll support you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:06]: You know, one of the other questions that I guess that I would have is that, as I said, you've had a lot of different experiences. You've worked at a lot of different institutions. You currently are at the University of Michigan Flint. You are the dean of the School of Nursing. Talk to me about all of your graduate work and the experiences that you've had in your career, and how that coalesces into the work that you do on a daily basis as a dean now at the University of Michigan Flint, and how those past experiences, that past graduate education is forming your direction in regards to the way in which you are leading and pushing the nursing programs at the University of Michigan Flint to be different, to grow, to learn, and to be able to be better aligned for student success?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:18:55]: So I think there's no better experience one can have in life than to have the lived experience that you're trying to help others go through. And so one of the things I'm grateful for, even though my trajectory through my career has been a little slower than might have been ideal, but I also lived each experience that I think my students have for the most part. I know what it's like, as I've already described, to get my baccalaureate degree, decide to pursue graduate education, to realize what was gonna be difficult about it, to still want to do it all, wanted to be a mom, wanted to be a wife, wanted to work. I wanted to be the best nurse possible, wanted to be successful. So all those things made me understand and appreciate the stress that sometimes cause. Things happen as you go along, and I certainly had a lot of personal things happen to me that sometimes made me feel like I wasn't gonna be able to achieve where I was trying to get to. And so that gave me a lot of internal resilience, not to wear that word out, and to understand what it's like to have these really big setbacks in your life and how you pick yourself up and keep going. So I've had that.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:20:04]: We learn so much from adversity is what I'm trying to say. So I think I can help students from that perspective. I haven't had it smooth sailing. It hasn't been a faculty, I've also been a very novice faculty member. I've been the faculty member that didn't have their doctoral degree yet. I've been the one who went back to school while I was trying to teach and get my doctoral degree. I know what it's like to go through the journey to be a faculty member and what it takes to continue to strive and meet your students' expectations. The other thing is that I've mentioned this earlier that this idea of intrinsic motivation, you should never try to go back to school because I have to do it and keep my job.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:20:49]: So if I had entered into my PhD, for example, not really wanting to do it, but just having to do it in order to keep my position, I don't think I could have been as successful as I was in that particular pursuit. So being intrinsically motivated, I would avoid thinking I just need the letters as a credential, and I just want to do this quick, easy, and cheap because that will make you feel like an imposter then. You really have to realize that it's up to you to get the most out of it that you can. So I tell that to students that I work with. I think that most of the time when I'm working with individuals that are considering whether or not to advance their education, I would say they don't know what they don't know. So I'm gonna go back to how important it is when you're thinking that that might be what you wanna do. Take the time to talk to people who can give you guidance, to consult with you, to coach you, help you think through where do you wanna go in your career. There's nothing more disheartening than to pursue a graduate degree and achieve it and then not use it or not want to use it.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:21:50]: It's not what you wanted to do, and that does happen. And so I would want to avoid that. Like I said, it's not just the letters behind your name. It's not just the credential. It's really feeling like you've achieved the competencies that you need to do what you wanna do or that you can at least scaffold for how you'll continue to be a lifelong learner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: All great points. I really appreciate you sharing that and for sharing your journey today. Now, I guess as you think about any student, whether it be a student going into nursing or any field, if as they're thinking about graduate school and they're thinking this might be the right time, this might be the opportunity that I've been waiting for, what are some tips that you might offer to those individuals that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:22:36]: Well, I don't wanna seem like a broken record, but talking to your colleagues, your friends that you work with, those who have thought, I don't wanna get a graduate degree. I have no need to. You know, find out what's behind it. What's behind that? Why do they think they don't want to? Those who have pursued it, those who pursued it successfully and felt like it made a difference for them, as well as those who pursued it and thought it was a waste of time, if that would be the case. I guess what I'm trying to say is learn from others who've had experience. Of course, you hope that if it's something you really want to do, you want to get yourself around those who can show you the positive side of pursuing the education and can show you the positive outcome of having advanced education. I think anyone who's unhappy with advancing their education in any area, whether nursing or otherwise, it's because they didn't put the right thought or research or preparation prior to going into the choice and then making sure that you can have a disciplined commitment to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]: Well, Cynthia, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing all of this advice, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:23:46]: Thank you. What a great opportunity. Hope I made a difference for someone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we delve into the intricate journeys of students, alumni, and experts navigating the rigorous paths of graduate education. Each episode captures the essence of what it means to strive for and achieve success in grad school. This week, we were thrilled to have Elias Fanous, an attorney based in Flint, join us to share his unique journey from undergraduate studies to a flourishing legal career.

Finding That Initial Spark

During his time at the University of Michigan Flint, Elias always had law school at the back of his mind. Nonetheless, like many students, he found himself meandering through core classes, uncertain of the next steps. His journey took a pivotal turn when he encountered Dr. Albert Price in a Constitutional Law prep course. This class not only rekindled his interest in law but also clarified his career aspirations. Thanks to the unwavering support from Dr. Price and other faculty members like Dr. Joseph Rami and Derwin Monroe, Elias started contemplating graduate school more seriously.

Navigating Post-Undergraduate Uncertainty

Post-graduation, Elias opted to work in his family's convenience store business. However, the desire to pursue law reemerged. The tipping point came one late night during a grueling third shift. Tired and seeking more significant opportunities, Elias decided to apply to Cooley Law School. The decision wasn't immediate or easy due to concerns about potential debt and lifestyle changes. Nevertheless, seeing his cousin Alexandra's success as a Cooley graduate validated his choice.

The Grad School Transition

The Initial Hurdles

Transitioning into law school wasn't a walk in the park. Elias soon realized that his undergraduate study techniques wouldn't suffice. The rigorous coursework and Socratic teaching method at Cooley demanded a change in his approach towards studying. It was a humbling experience, especially when he found himself unprepared for impromptu questions in class.

Developing Effective Study Strategies

Elias began to tweak his learning style each semester, taking advantage of tutorials, class outlines, and connecting with upper-level students. The continuous adjustments and improved study techniques eventually culminated in consistently better grades. "If I would have studied like this during undergrad, my GPA would have been much higher," he reflects.

Finding Leadership and Balance

Embracing Leadership Roles

In addition to academics, Elias immersed himself in the student community. He started as a senator in the Student Bar Association, gradually moving up to become the Student Body President for the Lansing campus. Engaging with diverse student leaders and faculty helped him develop problem-solving skills and a solid professional network.

The Impact on Career

While leading various campus initiatives, Elias honed his ability to balance responsibilities, a skill that proved crucial in his legal career. The relationships built during these times opened doors in his professional life, including landing his first office space through connections made via Dean Don LaDuke. These experiences taught Elias to handle practical aspects of law efficiently, preparing him for the demands of a legal career.

The Real-World Application of Education

Professional Success and Community

Impact Today, Elias is entrenched in the legal community as a public defender and a burgeoning leader within the County Bar Association. He credits his law school experiences, especially the leadership roles, for equipping him with necessary tools to build a thriving practice. More importantly, Elias has carried forward the ethos of helping others, a lesson he learned from mentors in Genesee County.

Overcoming Personal Trials

Elias's career is also marked by personal resilience. The support from his professional community was instrumental when he faced tragic personal loss during the early years of the COVID-19 pandemic. This collective camaraderie reaffirmed the importance of building strong, supportive networks.

Advice for Future Grad Students

Research and Goals

Elias emphasizes the importance of researching potential graduate schools thoroughly. Prospective students should look into the faculty's accomplishments, the school's reputation, and how well it aligns with their career goals. He advises making a comprehensive goal list to ascertain if a particular program meets their ambitions.

Cultivating Relationships

Building relationships with faculty and peers can make a significant difference. As Elias's story illustrates, these connections can offer invaluable support and professional opportunities.

Elias Fanous's journey underscores the multifaceted experience of graduate school. It's about embracing change, cultivating relationships, and balancing various responsibilities. His story is a testament to the transformative power of education and community support, offering inspiration for current and future grad students aiming to carve out their paths in the professional world. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. You may be at the very beginning just starting to think about, hey, do I wanna do this graduate school thing? You might be a little bit further along. You might have that application in your hands and sweating it a little bit, trying to figure out, am I gonna actually submit it? Or maybe you did submit it, and you're waiting on an answer. And you're trying to figure out, okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: What do I have to do next? What do I have to do to prepare myself for this? What do I have to do once I'm in graduate school? And this podcast is here for you because every week, I love being able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to be able to identify things that you can do to find success in the upcoming graduate school journey that you're going to be on. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have had different experiences, that have gone through that graduate school experience and have been successful in that experience. And in the end, they've gotten their degree. They're out in they're out and being successful in that in that career that they wanted to get into, And they're here to help you, to give you some tools for that toolbox and help you to be able to know what you can do now to prepare yourself well. This week, we got another great guest with us. Elias Fanous is with us today. And Elias is a attorney in the Flint area working in a number of different areas. We'll talk a little bit about some of the work that he's done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: He ended up getting his bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get his law degree at Cooley Law School. Really excited to have him here to talk about his experience and to share that experience with you. Elias, thanks so much for being here today.

Elias Fanous [00:02:03]: Oh, thanks for having me. It's been I know we've been trying to do this for quite some time, so finally glad to be able to sit down and talk to you about my journey. Well, the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: first thing that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go on from your undergraduate degree and go to law school. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Elias Fanous [00:02:29]: I always had in the back of my mind law school. It was always something I wanted to do or thought I wanted to do. But when I got to U of M, Flint, I guess I was kinda like every student. You're not really sure what you're doing. You're taking your core classes and trying to figure out, okay, what's the next step for me? I was very fortunate. I knew I was gonna be a political science major, and I had probably, in my opinion, the best adviser that someone could have, especially at that time, and that was doctor Albert Price. And I believe he's retired now, but I must've had probably 4 or 5 classes with him. But in his Con Law prep course or however you wanna call it, that's when it really started clicking.

Elias Fanous [00:03:06]: You know, we're going through these monumental supreme court cases from the very beginning up until actually, we also talked because at that time, we had the 2,000 president election, the Chad Gate, if you will, Al Gore and president Bush. And we also saw a flip in the leadership of the Supreme Court with Justice Roberts being named as chief, calling the death of justice Rehnquist. But I think I would say it was in that class that really kinda reignited the fire. Let's go to law school. That's the goal. And in talking with Doctor. Price, and also had other faculty members that I talked to, doctor Joseph Rami in the history department, and then Derwin Monroe in the political science department as well, really kinda helped drive that next step. It didn't happen right away, but they definitely helped me get to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:53]: As you said, it didn't happen right away. So you graduated from your undergraduate experience and you at some point, few years out, you make a decision. You make a decision, it's time. It's time to take that LSAT. It's time to go further, and it's time to start looking at law schools. And you end up attending Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that process for yourself. How did you end up finally deciding this is the time? But 2, how did you decide out of all of the law schools across the nation that you wanted to attend Cooley Law School?

Elias Fanous [00:04:26]: Sure. So, you know, I took the LSAT. I think it was the fall of my senior year at U of M Flint or my last semester or or whatnot, and and got my score back. It wasn't the best score in the world, but it wasn't the worst score in the world. I graduated, and I went immediately into work with my family. We had convenience stores. In fact, my dad still runs a convenience store. And I did that for a couple of years, and I kept going back in my head as do I wanna take on the debt? Because fortunate for me, when I was at U of M Flint, it wasn't as expensive as it is now.

Elias Fanous [00:04:55]: So I was able to pay my way through school in the early 2000. And so the big the big hurdle for me was, a, do I want that debt? Do I want that life? So I was going back and forth. I was working, and I think it was just somebody had called in sick, and I ended up having to work 3rd shift that night. So I'd already worked from 3 to 11, and I had to work from 11 to 7. And I said, you know what? This is enough is enough. It was in November. So went online and put in an application to Cooley, and I chose Cooley. That was the school I wanted to go to.

Elias Fanous [00:05:27]: A, I didn't have the best grades in the whole wide world when I was at U of M Flint, and that was just because I really didn't apply myself. And I'll tell you why I feel that way later. But my cousin, Alexandra, had gone to Cooley, and she had graduated and was already being successful. So I was like, woah, wait a minute. And at that time, Cooley was known as a school that makes you a lawyer, not teaches you the law, but prepares you to to actually practice law. So I applied and it was it was like December 26 or 27. It was right after Christmas. I got an email saying I had been accepted, and I could start in January 2009.

Elias Fanous [00:06:04]: So it took me about 4 days to find an apartment and start the financial paperwork. But, yeah, Cooley was where I wanted to go because I had family that had gone there, and I saw the product that Cooley was putting out at that time. And to me, that was really important because I wanted to learn to be a lawyer, not just learn the law.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:20]: Now I know you said that in your undergrad, you weren't happy with how you did as a student and how much you put into your education to be able to get out what you got out of it. And as you make that transition into any graduate program, it is a transition because you're taught in one way as an undergraduate student. And especially when you leave an undergraduate degree, you go out for a couple of years. You and then you have to get your mind back into school and figure out what not only it means to get back into school, but also what it means to start in a completely different way of learning. So talk to me about that transition for yourself because you were able to make that transition into law school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in that transition? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through all of the 3 years in law school?

Elias Fanous [00:07:19]: So in undergrad, I just you would show up to class, listen to somebody lecture, you'd take some notes, and then you hope for the best if you will. That's kinda how I approached undergrad. I was very active at U of M Flint, especially with the Greek community. I was president of my fraternity at U of at the University of Michigan Flint twice, actually, and so I didn't focus as much on my studies. I did enough to get by. I got good grades. It just wasn't to where my standard should have been. And it was more of I don't wanna say I wasn't pushed to get to where I needed to be, but I didn't have the enthusiasm, I guess, is the way to kinda put it where okay.

Elias Fanous [00:07:53]: I went to class. I took notes and lectures, and I was already thinking, what am I gonna do tonight? What am I what's going on? When I got to law school, Cooley immediately kinda became readily available that or readily kinda knowledgeable that you gotta do something different. You can't just go and take notes and expect to to succeed. I had a intro to law class that, at the time, had everyone take, and it was a great wake up call because you try and study the way you used to study, and it just it wasn't enough. And then we had a Socratic method in law school where you get assigned these readings, you gotta do them, and then you just kinda sometimes kinda duck behind your laptop and pray the teacher doesn't pick on you to to recite a case. And, I mean, right away, I I was called on in my contract scores. 1st year, professor Otto Stockmeyer, who's like a contracts guru, and it was humbling. You think you know it, and then you don't really know it, and you don't really get what they're trying to give you out of the case law.

Elias Fanous [00:08:45]: And then it kinda shifted my focus. Alright. Let's really prepare. Let's really understand what the material is. And if you don't understand something, go get assistance. And then at that time, the student bar association at Cooley, which I was ultimately involved in, since how you and I had met, had these class outlines that you could buy, and there was tutorials and tutors. So I took advantage of that, those sort of things. And then I wanted to be a part of different organizations at Cooley and wanted to be a leader.

Elias Fanous [00:09:12]: I was a leader in undergrad with my fraternity in the Greek life, but I wasn't really a leader in the student body, if that makes sense. And I wanted to be that. And I knew that if I was gonna be successful in law school and do that, I had to make sure I maintained my grades and and got good grades. And I made a deal with my cousin, Alex, who, like I told you before, she had graduated earlier. He said, you can't do any of that stuff if you don't get good grades. So that 1st semester, the 1st term at law school, I kinda hunkered down, made sure I I was able to pull passing grades because you hear all the horror stories. You spend all this money in your 1st term, term at law school and 35% of the classes vanished after week 6 of the 2nd term when the grades finally get posted. So once I got decent grades that first term, I was able to kinda use what I had learned that 1st semester and then tweak my learning style to get better.

Elias Fanous [00:10:04]: And every semester, I would take what I learned and the good and the bad and the ugly because there are ugly times too and tweak it. And ultimately, my grades started going up higher than they've ever been before. And I thought to myself, I would have studied like this at undergrad. I would have had a much better GPA and probably would have gone maybe to a different school, but everything happens for a reason and Cooley truly prepared me. I know there's a lot of negative stuff nowadays about the law school. But when I was there, and I'll call it the heyday of Cooley because that's what it was. Let's be honest. It was a great place to learn and a great place to prepare yourself to be a lawyer.

Elias Fanous [00:10:39]: And as I kept applying those different strategies throughout every semester, it just got better and better. And then I found out that as I am embracing the different leadership roles, not only through the Student Bar Association, but through different various organizations on campus, My grades kept getting better because I made more connections. And if I didn't understand a specific theory of law, I can go talk to somebody in one of those other organizations or another professor to really help kinda hone that that knowledge in and then it worked amazingly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:07]: Now you talked about the fact that you did get involved in your law school experience. You found ways to find that niche for yourself, but also found ways to be able to become a leader for the entire campus, becoming the student body president for the Lansing campus of Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that experience because not every student will decide to get involved outside of that academic experience. What did that do for you? And what do you say to others that are thinking about graduate school in regard to doing that balance of school versus the out of class experiences?

Elias Fanous [00:11:43]: I look back at my time in the Student Bar Association, not just as a class senator because I was I started off as a senator. And the nice thing about that was I got to meet other students that were further ahead than I was in law school and from different parts of the country and different viewpoints. And I still keep in touch with a great deal of them today, and that really kinda opened my eyes. Someone has this different mindset, and you can kinda talk to them and see what's going on. But it was a camaraderie. We're all sitting there in law school. We're all stressing our futures. We're stressing finals.

Elias Fanous [00:12:14]: We're stressing, you know, at the time, you know, someone's in research and writing or in the moot court program or on a national trial team, which I am ultimately doing as well, you've kinda said bond, forged, and fire, if that makes sense. And being part of that really kinda drove me to, okay, I wanna run for student body president. And being at that campus in Lansing, I guess, talk specifically about Lansing because I don't really know the lifestyle that it was in Auburn Hills or Grand Rapids at that time. But you'd walk into the Cooley Center, and everyone was just kinda hanging out down there. It was always full, and people would say, hey, how you doing? And you could just jump into a different study group wherever you went, and people had this kind of bond of, hey, we're gonna help each other. And being president of the Student Bar Association was fantastic. I got to meet leaders from other campuses. I got to get really intimately involved with the day to day operations of the law school with my relationship with, at that time, Dean Don LaDuke.

Elias Fanous [00:13:09]: I got to know you quite well. You're our advisor. And it really set things up for the future. It turned out that because I worked so well with dean Don LaDuke, when I came back to Flint to practice law, I had gone to a couple different association meetings, mainly the bar association meeting and then the Centennial ends of court. And I was introduced as a new attorney, and I had met a gentleman by the name of Carl Bacosti. And I owe Carl a great deal, great man. He had gone to law school with Donald Duke. And when he found out I went to Cooley, he had reached out to Donald Duke.

Elias Fanous [00:13:39]: And because I was able to cultivate those relationships from being student bar president, helped me land my first office. And one thing that I will reach to the end of my days as an attorney is that first year and a half, Carl wouldn't charge me rent. He gave me office space to get under your feet. And I said, well, how can I ever repay you? And he said, just do it to the next person, and I will continue to always do that. But being that leader and going to different campuses, seeing what's going on, we had a lot of, as you may remember, we had a lot of issues between the campuses and trying to kind of figure out what's going on. And then there was political issues within the law school. It taught me how to problem solve and also kind of direct so we had different sub committees and I had to learn how to balance the sub definitely the definitely the best decision I ever made to get involved. But I would caution people, don't get involved until you have your grades right.

Elias Fanous [00:14:31]: Because it took a lot of time. It was a lot of energy. And I'm glad I waited to make sure that I had the proper grades, the proper studying techniques to get to that next level. Because if I didn't, you'd crash out. You simply would just crash out. And there were people that did. There were people in my class that tried to get involved right off the bat, and they just kinda misappropriated their time. And for one reason or another, they didn't they didn't last, unfortunately.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:54]: Well, now you are in your profession. You are practicing in a very busy way. You are a public defender. You are doing a lot of other work outside of that public defending work as well. You're currently running for office for a judge position. So you've got a lot of things going on. As you reflect back to that education that you got, how do you feel that that education prepared you for the things that you're doing on a daily basis?

Elias Fanous [00:15:19]: Specifically with respect to Cooley, I had some great mentors there as well. But Cooley truly prepared me to how to be a lawyer. So I wasn't, like, walking in trying to figure out how am I gonna run a practice. It was the relationships that you cultivate. It was the work ethic that you cultivate and it was also the ability to communicate. Those are the 3 big things for me and I picked a great county to stay in. I was born and raised here, and I often tell people Genesee County is the best county in the state of Michigan to practice law. Everyone is very friendly and very helpful to one another.

Elias Fanous [00:15:52]: There's a couple of drays out there that don't subscribe to that mindset, but I would say 98% of the the attorneys in the county will help each other no matter what. And I can truly speak to that because I went through some really tough and dark times in the beginning of COVID with the loss of my wife. So I had to take a step back from practicing law. She had just given birth to our son, our first child, and then she passed away, you know, tragically 11 days later. And I had attorneys coming out of the woodwork. Hey. Can we cover your cases? Doing things via Zoom. Whatever you need, we'll get it done for you.

Elias Fanous [00:16:26]: And the the community rallied a little bit around me and allowed me to kinda get through that grieving process and then to get back into the swing of things as far as practicing law. But had I not had the experiences at Cooley with respect to making those kind of relationships and understanding how things work, because it's not just black and white. Practicing law is a lot of gray. And that really helped me get my foothold in here in Genesee County, talk to people, kinda cultivate those relationships the same way I did when I was student bar president, and then it just paid out in dividends. And it still does to this day. I'm in a leadership role right now with with the County Bar Association. I'm the incoming vice president for the County Bar Association, and next year, I'll be the president. We kinda have a graduation step.

Elias Fanous [00:17:09]: You know, you start off as the secretary, then you move into the treasurer position, then vice president. And so you're learning about the next job from the next person who's doing it at the same time. And it's just like being in school again. You're watching how someone does something, taking notes, and trying to understand the thought process, the rationale, and then you take that next step and do the same thing. And that kind of translated itself into into my practice. And my practice is thriving. I'm very excited about it. I'm excited about the future, and we'll see what the future holds here in a few weeks with respect to the judicial campaign.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:41]: Now as you think about people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be law school or not, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every individual thinking about that?

Elias Fanous [00:17:50]: The first thing I would say is research the school. Find out if you know. For example, for me, I didn't know that I wanted to be a litigator. I didn't know I wanted to be in public defender work until I got to law school, but I knew what the relationship was with different areas with Cooley, and I knew the history of the school at the time. And so research the school. Figure out exactly what you wanna get out of it. Make a goal list. You know, what do you wanna accomplish outside of just getting your degree? And this school that you picked, is it gonna fit those goals? And then once you do that, reach out, find people that have gone there, and get their opinions.

Elias Fanous [00:18:23]: For me, it was a blessing that my cousin had just had recently within 3 years had graduated from the law school, and it really helped sell the school to me. And then once, once you figure out that which school it is and you've talked to people, then sit down and contemplate it. Write a goal list and pros and cons. Because for some people, they're gonna move away. They're gonna go to a school outside of Michigan or outside of wherever they're from, And you also have to kind of balance that as well because it does make things difficult when you gotta come home for certain things or you wanna come home and maybe you can't on the drop of a hat. So, but for sure, always research the school, look at who their faculty are, and see what kind of accomplishments they have. Is it purely academic? Or is there more tangible, you know, work in the field being done with that school as well?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: Well, Elias, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for sharing what you learned in this process, and what helped you to find success, and I wish you all the best.

Elias Fanous [00:19:16]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].