Victors in Grad School

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Ryan Thomas, an accomplished auditor with the National Guard and dual degree holder from the University of Michigan, Flint. Ryan's journey is a testament to the power of networking, mentorship, and balancing academics with career responsibilities. This blog post delves into the key aspects of their conversation and the valuable lessons Ryan's experience offers to anyone navigating the complexities of educational and professional advancement.

The Power of Networking

Ryan emphasizes that networking was pivotal in his career success. After completing his undergraduate degree, Ryan faced immense challenges securing employment despite having a strong GPA. Recognizing the limitations of traditional job applications, he turned to networking. Ryan's connection with staff accountants during his time as a janitor at the VA in Battle Creek, Michigan, eventually led to an interview and paved the path for his first role in accounting.

Ryan underscores the importance of building relationships and seeking help when needed. He believes that people are often willing to assist if you reach out. This mindset not only opened doors but also provided Ryan with the support he needed to navigate his career path.

Mentorship and Professional Development

Mentorship played a crucial role in Ryan's journey. He advises finding mentors who have achieved goals similar to yours and learning from their experiences. Mentors can offer invaluable guidance on managing conflicts and challenges in one's career. Ryan's educational path was significantly influenced by such guidance, leading him to switch from finance to accounting based on a mentor's advice.

Beyond accounting courses, Ryan highlights the significance of diverse coursework in understanding organizational culture and improving core competencies. His education in organizational behavior has taught him the necessity of aligning personal values with the company's mission, a lesson that has been instrumental in his professional growth.

The Transition to Graduate School

Ryan's transition from undergraduate to graduate studies required significant lifestyle adjustments. Graduate coursework demanded more intensive time commitments, reducing social activities and pushing Ryan to dedicate his evenings to studying. The dual degree program—MBA and MS in Accounting—offered both flexibility and valuable in-person interactions every six weeks, which facilitated deeper learning and networking opportunities.

Balancing Work and Life

Balancing work responsibilities with academic commitments was a challenge Ryan had to navigate adeptly. To manage his increased workload, he developed effective strategies like studying immediately after work or utilizing the library to minimize distractions. He also found solace in nature, meditation, yoga, and exercise to manage stress and maintain balance.

Encouragement and Community Support

Encouragement from counselors and staff at the University of Michigan, Flint's School of Management played a vital role in Ryan's decision to pursue further education. Post-graduation, his church community provided spiritual support, especially during the times he faced setbacks, reinforcing the importance of a strong support system.

Ryan Thomas's journey highlights the immense value of networking, seeking mentorship, and maintaining a balanced life while pursuing higher education and career goals. His experience is a beacon of inspiration for anyone striving to merge academic pursuits with professional aspirations. Tune into this insightful episode of "Dads with Daughters" to delve deeper into Ryan's story and gather invaluable lessons for your own journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. I know I say that every week, but it is true. I love being able to talk with you, to walk with you, to work with you as you're going through this process. No matter where you're going, what you're doing, it is a process. It is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: And every person has to walk this journey by themselves, but you don't have to walk alone. And that's what's so important is that there are so many people around you that have gone through this process for themselves, that have learned things along the way, and they've been able to find success. Now, sometimes they may have stumbled, but they picked themselves up and kept going. And this show is here to be able to not only show you that, but to give you some hints, some tips, some tools for your own toolbox to help you to be able to find success in the journey that you currently are on or that you're currently going to be on. So that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have gone through this process for themselves to be able to share that journey that they went through with you so that you can learn from them. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Ryan Thomas is with us. And Ryan is an auditor with the National Guard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: And he is based down south in South Carolina and has been working as an auditor for some time. But he did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint and then went on and got a dual degree. And we're gonna talk about what that means. He got a dual graduate degree of both an MBA and a master of science in accounting. So we're gonna be talking about that journey and the journey to getting those 2 graduate degrees at the University of Michigan Flint as well. And I'm really excited to have him here today. Ryan, thanks so much for being here.

Ryan Thomas [00:02:13]: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Yeah. It's my pleasure having you here today. I love being able to talk to different people and learn about the journeys that they went on. Now I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and I love starting these conversations turning the clock back in time. So I want to go back a couple years. I want to go back to the, to that point in time back in your undergraduate days where you probably had that inkling, that inkling in your mind that you wanted to continue your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Ryan Thomas [00:02:48]: Sure. I had just got honorably discharged out the, military and wanted to kind of find my way out in the workforce. And I figured that one of the best ways that I could build value and credibility was to go get my degree. My mom had went to the University of Michigan Flint, and she just loved it. She used to take me up there when when I was a child, and she would take me to some of her classes. And so, I was very familiar with the campus and decided to go ahead and go into accounting. It was very interesting that I used to go to the rec center as a child, and so I've always had this nostalgic feeling about the the University of Michigan and the Wolverines. So I was very proud to be on the campus and to be able to be in accounting program.

Ryan Thomas [00:03:32]: And I actually began my first major in finance, and I was getting ready to go across the stage. And one of the professors has set me up with a mock interview with the director over international sales at Dow Chemical. And I sat down with them, and we talked about possibilities. And one of the things that he had mentioned to me, he was like, there's a lot of people that's in finance. You don't necessarily have to have a degree to actually work in finance. And he was like, you know, but there's a lot of opportunities in accounting. And, like, there's comptrollers, there's people that do consulting. And I remember looking at my credits and only needed, like, about 4 more classes, so I decided to go back for another year and get my degree in accounting.

Ryan Thomas [00:04:20]: And when I finished up, I had a very difficult time to find an employment. What I learned is that a lot of the employers require experience in accounting. So although I have my degree, I had a difficult time transitioning into some of the prominent accounting firms like Robert Half or Ernst and Young. And so I had a difficult time trying to get in because I just had my GPA, which is pretty good, and I have my degree. So I just started to do some volunteer work, and that's how I began to get my experience. And so I started volunteering my services. And one of the things that I thought was I might as well, while I'm just starting out and finding my way and building experiences, I might as well continue to go to school. So I ended up deciding to go into the graduate program.

Ryan Thomas [00:05:06]: And there was a lot of influence from the counselors and from the staff members at the School of Management. And those relationships with my professors and with that staff really encouraged me to, wanna continue school there. They were always very understanding. I could approach to them even when I had, life issues coming outside the classroom. They were very approachable, and I enjoyed the way they taught. And so, I ended up going through the dual program at the University of Michigan Flint because I began finding some opportunities in accounting as I was going to school. Found my first opportunity at the VA in Battle Creek, Michigan, and I was working there as a staff accountant. And and and believe it or not, before I became a staff accountant, I had to get a job as a janitor at the VA.

Ryan Thomas [00:05:57]: And what happened was there were individuals in the, the department that had called out. I'm sorry. There was a there was somebody that was assigned to the, to the accounting building. And the person that called out and everyone was scared to actually go over there and clean because they were very meticulous. They were very, you know, they were quick to to call in if you made a mistake. And so I ended up volunteering, going over there and cleaning, and started networking. I had conversations with the staff accountants there. And, lo and behold, one of them who I established a relationship with, it told me about interviews that was occurring within the department, and I ended up going out for it.

Ryan Thomas [00:06:37]: And I went to the interview, did really well, and I ended up coming back to work the next day as a janitor. And the chief of accounting had came up to me, and she was like her name was Nancy. And Nancy came up to me while I was in my janitor closet, and she was like, Ryan, you did a great job. She was like, but, we decided to go with somebody else. And I was like, look, and I was like, okay. And I was just grateful. I was just, you know, I I thought that I was I was grateful to have a job at the time. I know how tough it was trying to transition.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:07]: I went a long period of time without work being a student and trying to get my foot in the door, not having that much experience even though I had my degree. And so I was just like, you know, that's okay. There'd be another opportunity. And then, you know, I went on to work and continued on. And I remember I ended up going to church that Sunday, and I had told my pastor that I was going for the interview for the accounting position. And he brought me up in front of the church. There's big old spotlight on me, and he was like, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:35]: Ryan, come up here. And I I came up there, and I just looked at him and I started shaking my head like, no. No. I I didn't I didn't get the job. I mean, thank God. He looked at me and he said, you didn't get the job yet. And he called up the elders and they prayed over me. And I was just like, okay.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:52]: And so I received prayer. And that Monday, the next day, I got a phone call from HR saying that the individual who had initially accepted the position declined the position because they were using that job as leverage to receive a promotion at the job that they had there. And they offered me the position, and so I started working at the VA. And I continued to work and go through the graduate dual program because it allowed space for me to work full time and be able to do classes part time online. And then every 6 weeks, I believe it was, we would, you know, spend a a weekend and face to face with our professors and be able to ask deep down questions that that that might have been puzzling us to some of the work that we were doing. And so the the program really, really kinda fit my schedule and my lifestyle, my my, quality of life of what was going on at the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: That's quite the journey. I really appreciate you sharing that. And it kind of answers my next question, which is typically I I would ask you why U of M Flint, but you kind of answered that. And, you know, sometimes things happen in your life and they happen for a reason. And it sounds like that kind of happened for you, an opportunity, you know, and that opportunity led to further opportunities. And I guess talk to me a little bit about, you decided to do a dual degree, where you had an opportunity to be able to get 2 different degrees. And for those of you that if you don't know what a dual degree is, a dual degree is where you get 2 different graduate degrees, but the graduate degrees have been created in such a way, or they have been linked in such a way to allow you to be able to have some courses that overlap. So in this situation, Ryan was working on an MBA degree, but he also was working on an MS in accounting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:47]: And the MBA had a concentration in accounting and those courses that were in the concentration and courses in the MS in accounting overlapped. You still have to get 2 degrees. You still have to do those additional credits, but you are cutting that down. You're saving time and money on 2 different degrees. So talk to me about why you chose to do a dual degree versus just focusing on 1 and getting 1 and getting done. Instead, you decided to do both degrees and to come out at the end with 2 different degrees.

Ryan Thomas [00:10:23]: Yeah. So when I had started the, School of Management and I I started the graduate program, they were just there was a lot of marketing and and a lot of exposure, and and they were really promoting the dual program at that time and offering, like you had mentioned previously, the opportunity to get 2 degrees with with, degrees that with classes that overlap. And the way I viewed it is, I wasn't sure exactly, like, what area within accounting I really wanted to focus on, and so I wanted to have a broader view and and get exposure to the different classes that were available so that I could pinpoint and narrow my search as far as where exactly I wanted to end up at. So I've done budget analyst work. I've done general ledger accounting work, and then I've also done auditing. And through that class, I've I, you know, I I really took on took a liking to the auditing part, the the auditing courses within accounting. So, what it basically I was wanting to do was really build some credibility and build value in myself. And I figured that with 2 master degrees from the University of Michigan Flint and our degree state University of Michigan, like, I definitely wanted to be able to provide myself with as many opportunities out there.

Ryan Thomas [00:11:40]: And I found that as I've progressed in my career, that's one of the things that kinda separated me from a lot of other candidates is, having the 2 degrees, the 2 master degrees, and being able to do it within a a a short time frame. Because a lot of people will go out and get their master's degree and then they find that, hey, maybe I wanna change fields or I wanna go into a different area and they'll go back out and they'll get another master's degree, where that may takes upward towards like 6 years. I was able to do it within a shorter time frame. And now I did take some time off in between, you know, when I got that first master's degree and then getting the second thing, but that was very convenient within the dual program. Like even though I took like a semester off, I was still able to continue to work towards that second master's degree to continue to build value and also knowledge and expertise within accounting. So it was not just convenient for me from a practical standpoint, financially, time wise, which 2 things that I value very much, but it was also convenient in the sense that as I kinda started from the bottom floor to, you know, move up the ladder, that the 2 degrees, the 2 master degrees was something that kinda stood out and allowed me to get into some prominent places, you know, as far as working. I worked at one of the biggest accounting agencies in the world in in, DFAS, the Defense Finance and Accounting Center. And then also, had a chance to work with the Army Audit Agency, which is one of the premier auditing agencies with the government as well.

Ryan Thomas [00:13:16]: And so, I got I got exposure to other people with experience, and it all it did was just help propel me in my career. So the dual program was awesome as far as the professors and the way they had it set up. And you essentially are going to class that entire weekend, and the program has lunch set up for you to have food, catered. And so, like, you're going to school half of the day on Friday, and then you go out, take lunch, you get a chance to network and mingle with your, fellow classmates who you mainly just seen online. It gives you a time to gather and see face to face for for individuals who you've done group projects with. So it's always good to put a face with a name, but it makes it much more personable. It, definitely makes you own your product a little bit more when you're able to kinda personalize it. So, in that aspect, I I loved it.

Ryan Thomas [00:14:08]: And then we would get down to the meat and bones of, like, some of the challenging portions within our work and our projects. And then once we got that information, we would be able to go back online and work through some of the class materials, some of the the text and some of the, the quizzes and a test that they have prior to finishing up the courses or whatnot. But essentially, the projects, which were to me the more challenging portions of the class within the graduate program, it was great to be able to have that flexibility of of going online, but then being able to meet together and meet with people for those projects to get on the same page. Communication is a lot more clear. So, it's a little bit more transparent also to get on the same page with, some of the responsibilities, divvying out the work, whatnot. And then the food was great. The food was actually excellent. And then it also gives us the time to connect with the staff members, counselors, and people in the, the School of Management at that time because it was all I'm not sure if it's still in Radisson across the street from the campus or whatnot, but that's where we used to go on when I was going through the program.

Ryan Thomas [00:15:15]: So it was beneficial on all different levels from that aspect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:18]: Now every student, when they go from one degree to the next, goes through some type of transition. And when you go from high school to undergrad, you had a transition. And for you, you also had some military service in there too, so you had to you had that kind of transition. And then when you went from undergrad to graduate school while balancing work, there was a transition. There's a transition in the way that you're being taught, the expectations on you as a student, and more. Talk to me about when you think back to those transitions, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Ryan Thomas [00:16:06]: I don't think I really thought it through as I was doing it. But as I look back on it, one of the things that I had to do as I transitioned from undergrad to grad was I had to really make my school work a lifestyle when it came to the graduate course work. So, like, the nightly commitments to the graduate program, there's a certain amount of hours that you put in and it's it's gonna equate to a certain grade that you're gonna get out that class. Time is going to equal the achievement. So what I found is my nightlife hanging out. I kinda had to cut back on a lot of that when it came to the graduate program because it was very intense and the commitment level had increased. So most of the time in the evenings, I dedicated to the program to study and to working on the projects. And, and I look back on it now, like, I didn't realize it at the time, but it I essentially had to kinda make a lifestyle change, kinda make it more of a lifestyle rather than just an assignment, or I'm committed to taking these classes.

Ryan Thomas [00:17:13]: Because in the undergrad, I could skim some stuff, and I can research some things, and I could do fairly well. But with the graduate program, I know that I had to kind of really embrace the program and kind of get saturated into the material. Yeah. And I found that I had to sometime, I would read a chapter, and I would have to go back and reread it after I did some of the work. And with math, sometimes you can work backwards. And so I would do the assignments, and then sometimes I would kinda go back over the work for even after an exam, I would go back over some of the work just to make sure that I get it ingrained in me. And so I would say that that was one of the biggest challenges. And then also being able to still work at a certain competency level without school interfering was another thing, making sure that I maintain my commitment at work.

Ryan Thomas [00:18:08]: I didn't have to work was not as challenging when I was in the undergraduate program. But once I got into the graduate program, I got into some higher level accounting work. I started doing some some budget work, and they were increasing my responsibilities. So sometimes what I would do is, I will work late. And since I was already at work, I would just break out my textbooks and start studying like right after work. And certain times, I didn't do it all the time, but it just kinda just goes back around to where I was stating earlier as far as the transition that I had to make personally. It's just I'm not speaking for everybody, but just me personally, I had to kinda make it more of a lifestyle. I spent a lot of time in a library rather than going home and exposing myself to distractions like TV or anyone who might have come by or whatnot.

Ryan Thomas [00:19:03]: And so I kinda had to immerse myself into the academic world and cut back on the social world that I was really involved in. So this is so funny. When I look back on a year that I got my graduate degree, most of the movies that year, I did not watch. So, like, when I watched movies, during the year that I grabbed my graduate degree, they're new to me still, like, and so, I had to cut back on a lot of TV and a lot of leisure time that I had got cut back. And and and there were still ways for me to find work life balance, and and I would just sometimes just kind of relax and take time out to go buy a stream of water. One of my, favorite things to do was to go down there at the U of M Flint campus and, but not during the graduate program, but one of the favorite things I used to do is walk down by the bridge, by the dam down there at the school and just kinda sit down by the river and reflect over what I needed to do and what I've done and just everything that was going on in life. And it gave me a time to kinda just pause, and I I think everybody need that from time to time when you're getting immersed into a lot of work, a lot of challenges is, you know, you sometimes we just need to kinda pause and just kinda be in the moment, just kinda kinda alleviate and get away from a lot of the busyness that can easily sometimes be overwhelming. And so that's one of the ways that I found balances.

Ryan Thomas [00:20:32]: Taking out time to, to pause on the weekends or even on a weekday if I if I found the minute here and there, I would take out some time to pause. At that time, I I I believe I started practicing meditation at that time. I also undertook some yoga and the gym was another outlet for me. So I started working out quite a bit also during my downtime. And then I found that that helped me with coping with some of the stress levels from school and also the work that I had because, you know, you still have responsibilities, You know, I still have to pay bills. I still had to look at other commitments even outside of school and outside of work. You know, I had, some service work that I was involved in that I wanted to maintain a commitment to. So, yeah, those are some of the things that I encountered as far as handling that transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:16]: I really appreciate that. Now, one of the things that I am kind of interested in is you graduated. You found success in this journey that you went on with the graduate degree, and you went on into your career and being now an auditor with the National Guard, but you've also done other things as well along the way and be able to and keeping that connection also with the armed services in different agencies in the federal government. So you have these degrees. As you reflect back on what you learned in those degrees and you look at what you're doing now, talk to me about the interplay there and how you see what you learned in your program, how it prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis.

Ryan Thomas [00:22:02]: So with the accounting, it just kinda laid the foundation in terms of the basics that I had to be able to learn. You know, you learn about t accounts, learn about general ledger accounting codes, and that's all universal language within accounting wherever you go, whether it's government or whether you go out into private sector. So I was able to gain that, but one of the things that I feel like stood out that helped me within my career was some of the the other classes that weren't just the concentration in accounting, like the organizational behavior classes, learning to get vested into the mission, learning to understand, like, the company's values and lining myself up with that. And what I found is that now I try to align my audits with the, leadership's priorities because as we work within our field, we're affecting other departments and other individuals. And so you wanna make sure that your work aligns with the organizational needs and with the direction and the vision of the leadership. So a lot of that organizational behavior class taught me the importance of kinda like having some ownership, really kinda learning some buy in, what what we're doing, kinda understanding the culture of the organization. All of these are very critical things because although I I do work with numbers, I also work with people. And having some familiarity of other departments is very helpful, understanding kinda, like, what their workload may be and kinda understanding, like, what their needs are.

Ryan Thomas [00:23:38]: So So when we kinda understand the culture and we kinda understand the values, we understand the mission, we start understanding where people needs are at, where the gaps may need to be filled in at, you know, like, and be willing to get outside the box also. So for instance, I volunteer for teaching classes. I've taught a class called PMDB at the VA where it's preventative behavior. It's like defensive postures that you can take if you're attacked by a patient. And then, basically, if you work in a hospital, you you can't fight back. And so you learn how to kinda guard yourself in a safe manner. Another thing that I taught was, Arbinger, and that's, kind of like a mindset course where you kind of learn people's motives and intentions and learn how to deal with conflict management. And so that was the other thing also as as I, progressed, I started learning the importance of core competencies, you know, interpersonal skills, learning to develop leadership skills.

Ryan Thomas [00:24:35]: And one of the most valuable things that a lot of organizations are looking for is creative thinking. They want people to think in different perspectives and not just in one way. So because that kind of propels innovation within the organization and also kinda covers the basis on all different sides. So like I said, the accounting is great. I learned the basics, with them through the program, but there was a lot of other classes. Like I said, I attribute, like, organizational behavior to getting me an outside perspective on, like, the leadership, the development in the organization which I work in to kind of propel me. And I found that that has allowed me to take on leadership positions. I've led our general ledger.

Ryan Thomas [00:25:14]: I've led audits and things of that nature in it. Management takes notice to that. There's other classes that can help broaden your skill set. And instead of just of accounting, I would definitely recommend exploring those other classes and being intentional. You know, when you take those filler classes, prerequisites or, you know, classes that may not necessarily be aligned with your concentration.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that I know that people can think about to be able to incorporate into their own experience. As you think about your own graduate education, you think about students that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer others that would help them find success sooner?

Ryan Thomas [00:25:58]: Network. Network. Network. Network. I didn't realize the power of it. When I was looking for work, I thought it was just a numbers job. No. I was putting in applications, putting applications, putting applications.

Ryan Thomas [00:26:07]: But when you can put a face with that application and you can be able to build connections with people, you'll get provided opportunities, you'll get recommended for opportunities, and they tend the door tends to open up a little wider and a little bit more often than if you were to try to do it on your own. What I found is that, you know, everyone needs help at some point in time. And seeking that help through others, a lot of people are here to be able to help us out. So seeking that help, making the most out of it, making the most out of those connections is, probably one of the most valuable assets that I've gained within, you know, my career and also moving forward out of my graduate degrees. I some of the connections that I feel, I utilize those individuals for recommendations now, or they might, you know, recommend me for a position that opened up. We just had a, auditor position that that just became vacant. And my supervisor, she sent it to us and asked us if we know anybody. Send the word out there.

Ryan Thomas [00:27:08]: And, you know, that's how it all gets started. It grows from just a small thing, like, a opening popping up, and I sent it out to a couple of friends, you know, just let them know, like, hey. This opportunity is available. It's not to say, like, hey. It's a slam dunk or something that you could take, but it's an option. And that was that's the other thing I would recommend is, you know, try to have as many options as possible. There is no greater feeling than having a job opportunity that pops up that's really great, and then being able to be like, you know what? I got something better. No.

Ryan Thomas [00:27:36]: Thanks. And so I would definitely recommend for individuals to cast a wide net whenever you're seeking employment or whenever you're looking at opportunities as far as improvement, certifications, trainings, and things of that nature. You know, I I take trainings today. I was taking a training about mentorship. That's something to get into. Those are another that's another tip that I have for for anyone that is looking to progress and do well. Find somebody who has what you're looking for or that has already gone to where you've been. And that individual call it like a recipe.

Ryan Thomas [00:28:13]: Right? It's like a cake recipe. If you do the certain things that they did, then you can get the same results. And just like how with the cake recipe, if you put in those same ingredients, everybody does it. You put in those same ingredients, you're gonna get that cake. You're gonna get the same results. So I, definitely recommend mentorship and taking individuals who are exactly where you wanna be. I found people that are in leadership positions that have been through my footsteps, and they're in a higher position or they're and it may may not even have to be with money. Maybe they're happy and they're doing well.

Ryan Thomas [00:28:48]: You know, maybe they have a contentment and a joy to them. You know? I like to go to work and have a good feeling about it. I don't wanna get up and dread going to work. So mentorship has helped me find some of those pathways. And sometimes, you know, you know, being able to work with people can be difficult. I found that whenever I have conflict management, being able to hash that out with a mentor and kinda walk through that tape and be like, okay. These are areas that I can improve upon, or these are areas where, hey, I couldn't do nothing about, and I get confirmation and have a little bit more acceptance about it. So we do have those challenges as we continue to progress within our careers, And there's nothing quite like having somebody there to provide support, provide some guidance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:33]: Well, Ryan, I just wanna say thank you for all that you shared today. You've been amazing in providing a ton of resources that will help individuals to be able to think about things in different ways. And I just wanna say I wish you all the best.

Ryan Thomas [00:29:49]: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is an ambitious trek that requires not only academic prowess but also exceptional determination and patience. Recently, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jerome Kirkland, a site manager at BASF and a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint, who shared his invaluable experiences and insights about his journey through graduate school. Our conversation highlighted key aspects of his academic and professional journey, which can serve as a beacon for anyone contemplating a similar path.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education A Call to Higher Education

Jerome's story is a testament to the power of mentorship and professional guidance. He reminisced about his initial decision to pursue a master's degree, influenced heavily by his manager, who was a fervent advocate for education. "One of the days he came to me and he said, hey, Jerome, you know, we offer tuition reimbursement. Maybe you should look into that," Jerome recalled. This gentle nudge from his manager played a pivotal role in his decision to enroll in an MBA program at the University of Michigan Flint.

Choosing the Right Program

When considering MBA programs, Jerome's choice to stick with the University of Michigan Flint was driven by a combination of familiarity, comfort, and strong family ties. Despite living closer to the Ann Arbor campus, the Flint campus offered him the proximity to family and friends, making his academic journey a holistic experience. "I still have family there. At that time, I was living in Belleville, Michigan... but it gave me an opportunity to, you know, just come home, visit family and friends, and still have an opportunity to get a good education," he shared.

The Graduate School Transition Re-Engaging with Academia

Transitioning back into academic life after establishing oneself in the workforce can be challenging. Jerome emphasized the importance of time management, patience, and leveraging one's foundational education to navigate the graduate school terrain successfully. "Graduate school is not for the faint of heart... You really have to dedicate time, you have to dedicate patience," Jerome advised, highlighting the need for a disciplined approach.

Overcoming Challenges

Every academic journey comes with its unique set of challenges. For Jerome, the global COVID-19 pandemic became a backdrop for his graduate studies, presenting both difficulties and opportunities. Jerome used the increased focus and decreased distractions during the pandemic to his advantage. "I had a little bit more time to really just push myself towards getting that degree in graduate school."

Key Learnings and Applications Collaboration and Continuous Learning

One of Jerome's major takeaways from his MBA program was the importance of collaboration. "If you're the smartest person in the room... you need to find another room," he said. This mindset has been instrumental in his professional life, where he continuously seeks diverse perspectives and teamwork to address complex challenges.

Practical Applications

Jerome's experiences in graduate school, from financial analysis to operations management, have had a direct impact on his day-to-day job as a plant manager. He emphasized that the real-world case studies and hands-on learning in his MBA program have made his professional responsibilities more comprehensible and manageable.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Follow Your Passion

Jerome's most crucial piece of advice for prospective graduate students is to pursue further education only if they are genuinely passionate about it. "You have to really say that this is what I want. You can't do it for somebody else," Jerome stressed. His journey underscores the importance of intrinsic motivation and personal commitment in achieving success.

In conclusion, Jerome Kirkland's journey through graduate school offers a wealth of insights for anyone considering this path. His experience underscores the importance of mentorship, the right academic environment, disciplined time management, and the drive to overcome challenges. As Jerome aptly puts it, continuous learning and collaboration are keys to long-term success in both academia and professional life.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, this week, as always, I'm here to walk with you, to help you, to work with you as you walk toward, walk through, and walk beyond graduate school. It's really exciting to be able to be in this journey alongside you, to help you along the way, and I want you to be successful. So that's why every week this podcast is here to be able to give you some tips, some tools, some things that you can take with you to help you on this journey that you're on. Every week I try to bring you different guests with different experiences that have been able to go to graduate school, have been able to go to graduate school, be able to be successful in going through graduate school, and can share that experience with you. Today, I've got a great I've got a great new guest with us today and I'm really excited to be able to have him here.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Jerome Kirkland is with us today. And Jerome is a site manager at BASF, and he's been doing that for a number of years. But he did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went on and got his master's of business administration at the University of Michigan Flint as well. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with him and have him share some of his experiences with you. Jerome, thanks so much for being here today. Thank

Jerome Kirkland [00:01:35]: you so much for having me, Doctor. Lewis.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you. And I want to turn the clock back in time. I want to go all the way back to those days when you were on campus at the University of Michigan, Flint going through that bachelor of business administration degree in accounting and operations management. At some point during that time, you made a choice. You made a choice to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the right next step.

Jerome Kirkland [00:02:05]: Well, if I go back to that time, I was working a lot in automotive. Being from the Flint area, you know, basically everything, manufacturing or any really good paying jobs at that time were in manufacturing. So I wanted to make sure that my education kinda took me to where I wanted to go. We all have aspirations when we're either getting ready to go to undergrad or grad school on where do we see our careers being. I know one of the things that I wanted from my career was to at least be at a plan manager, director level, or somewhere along that stratosphere, And I knew in order to do that, I will have to do the work leading up to that. And one of those things was making sure that I got my bachelor's in the end, pursued a master's degree so that I could really see how to really effectively run a business.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:44]: I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and you probably could have gone to a lot of different places. You could have chosen to go to some other place for your master's degree, but you chose to go to the to the master's in business administration program at the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about what made you decide that the MBA was the right choice. And then secondly, as you were looking at MBA programs, what made you finally decide that U of M Flint was the place where you wanted to land?

Jerome Kirkland [00:03:12]: Well, what made me really look at getting an MBA was I had a manager who really believed in, you know, education and and really doing those things to get yourself ahead in in organizations. And one of the days he came to me and he said, hey, Jerome, you know, we offer tuition reimbursement. And I said, really? He said, yeah. Maybe you should look into that. And, he said, we'll talk about it on our next call. So that was kind of the gentle push. I believe I need it. I believe that manager at the time, who was our global manufacturing director, seen something in me where he's seen that I could grow throughout our organization.

Jerome Kirkland [00:03:45]: And he said, well, hey. You know, by the time we had the next call, I said, I looked into it, and one of the places that I think I really have a good fit is University of Michigan Flint. I still have family there. At that time, I was living in Belleville, Michigan, which was actually closer to the Ann Arbor campus, but it gave me an opportunity to, you know, just come home, visit family and friends, and still have an opportunity to get a good education.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]: Now, anybody that goes through undergraduate work gets out into the workforce and then decides, Hey, I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go back and get some education. You gotta get back into the mindset. You gotta transition back into school. And there is a transition that you go through when you go from being an undergraduate student to being a graduate student. So talk to me about that transition and what you had to do to be able to not only find success as you entered into the graduate degree, But what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Jerome Kirkland [00:04:42]: I always tell people graduate school is not for the faint of heart. It's a lot of work that you have to put in there. So you really have to dedicate time, you have to dedicate patience, and you kinda have to deal with your foundational education. I I think it was really important that I got a good education in my undergrad, and it helped push me and make me successful throughout grad school. I think the one thing I can say about University of Michigan Flint is the professors really are there to help you. They're they're to push you also. So it's not like, you know, they're just giving degrees away. It's a lot of work that goes into it.

Jerome Kirkland [00:05:11]: And once I realized the the time commitment that I would have to give to it, I I just kinda buckled down there and said, okay. This is what I'm gonna have to do to move forward. And then the second thing was just patience because, you know, with grad school, it's it's half the time of undergrad school. So you look at it as it's it's a it's a more accelerated push of yourself, and it and it really pushes you to, you know, different limits. And then you still have your day to day life going on, whether you're working or whether you're a parent or whether you're a spouse. So all of those things combined, it just you know, it it put me in a place where it pushed me to be the best version of myself.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]: Now going through graduate school is not always roses. It's there's definitely challenges along the way. Talk to me about some of those hills that you had to climb and what you had to do to be able to persevere, to be able to get to that that light at the end of the tunnel?

Jerome Kirkland [00:06:03]: Well, I think in a lot of cases, when I was going through graduate school, and I'm just gonna speak for myself specifically, it was a really tough time because the environment outside of my life really changed. We had something that came through in 2020 called COVID 19, and that was the time that I was going through graduate school. So trying to navigate school, we're trying to navigate life, we're trying to navigate all these other challenges, I think gave me a different renewed focus because I had a little bit more time to really just push myself towards getting that that degree in graduate school. So I think if anything, I know that nobody can ever say COVID was a good time in life, but it was a good time for me to push myself to really focus because I didn't have as many distractions because life kinda changed on the outside.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]: You definitely go through a lot of learning and a lot of growth as you go through graduate school yourself, yourself, and you learn a lot about yourself as well as you do similar to undergraduate work as well, but it's just in a little bit different way. As you think back to graduate school, what was some of the biggest moments for you that you learned about yourself that are still helping you today?

Jerome Kirkland [00:07:11]: Well, one of the biggest moments was some of the, STEM classes that we have within there is is the I think it was financial analysis, and then it was another class that I had or operations management. It was some things that I hadn't been through in a long time. So it it really made me have to go back and try to remember how to work through some of those types of, problems. Even even some of the other classes when it came to marketing and some other things, a lot of times you get a bachelor's and you think, hey. I know what's going on. I know how to proceed in a class like this. But those moments like those were the ones that and then technology changed a little bit. When I went through school, you know, it was mostly Microsoft Office, a little bit of PowerPoint, a little bit of Excel, some things like that.

Jerome Kirkland [00:07:51]: They were doing more access, and they were using other types of slideshows and some things like that that I hadn't been used to. So so a lot of those things, along with some of the younger talent that was going through the program with me, kinda help foster along some growth within myself. And then it also put me in a place where I could really take some of those case studies and apply them to my day to day being a plant manager in in a manufacturing facility. And a lot of those things, I was like, okay. Now it really makes sense why they present it the way they do. So I was just really overjoyed by a lot of the things that I learned, and those moments really taught me that I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. So I always like to use the term, the more I learn, the less I realize I know. And that was just one of those times where going through that program really taught me a lot.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:33]: You definitely learned quite a bit. And as you have finished your degree, you finished that off and you've been out in the workforce for quite a few years. As you think back to your time going through not only the degree itself, but now that you've been out in the workforce for a number of years and working in industry, as you look back and and you think about what you learned in that process, how do you find that you use the things that you learned on a daily basis?

Jerome Kirkland [00:09:01]: I think probably the biggest lesson I learned that I use on a daily basis is collaboration. If you're the smartest person in the room or the biggest person in the room, you probably need to find another room. Right? You need to fill it with different people who have different perspectives that can help you grow and help the organization grow throughout. So one of the things that I I've I've really learned is how do you collaborate? How do you work with people? How do you utilize other people's strengths to help your deficiencies? So those were the things that really stand out to me on what I really learned from the program.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:29]: Now as you think about individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for the MBA or any graduate program, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every student?

Jerome Kirkland [00:09:40]: I would say it's just like anything else. You only should do it if your heart is really into it. You have to really say that this is what I want. You can't do it for somebody else because you'll have those bad days or those days where you're writing that 20 page paper that you say, is this really worth it? You have to really wanna do it for yourself, your family, and you really have to have some time and some patience to be able to push through.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:02]: Well, Jerome, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for your willingness to be able to talk back about the all these things that you've learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best.

Jerome Kirkland [00:10:15]: Alright. Thank you so much, doctor Lewis, for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:17]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we had the privilege of delving into the remarkable journey of Dr. Donald Tomalia, a pioneering figure in the field of chemistry and an inspiring role model for many. Dr. Tomalia, now in his 80s and still actively contributing to the field, shared his insights on the development of new molecular architectures, his career journey, and the unwavering curiosity that has driven his success.

Pioneering Dendrimer Research

Dr. Donald Tomalia is widely acknowledged for his groundbreaking work on dendrimers - dendritic polymers with branching patterns inspired by natural structures like trees and neurons. Discovered at Dow Chemical Company in 1979, dendrimers have since become pivotal in various applications, such as targeted cancer therapies and vaccine delivery systems. In particular, their capability to deliver messenger RNA for vaccines represents a significant leap forward in medical science.

Working alongside groups in the US and Europe, Dr. Tomalia continues to push the boundaries of chemistry. His work emphasizes the creation of new molecular structures, leading to discoveries with far-reaching implications for medicine, agriculture, and environmental science.

The Role of Mentorship and Education

Dr. Tomalia's educational journey began at Flint Junior College, before moving on to the University of Michigan Flint where he found invaluable mentorship under the guidance of Professor Harry Blecker. The fundamental knowledge and support he received were instrumental in shaping his academic and professional pursuits. Despite financial constraints, scholarships and fellowships enabled him to pursue higher education and eventually attain a PhD from Michigan State University while working at Dow.

He attributes his success not to luck, but to hard work and persistence. For Dr. Tomalia, mentors played a critical role in his journey. Figures like Dr. Harry Blecker and Professor Adi Makela provided the encouragement and guidance necessary to navigate the uncertainties of a scientific career. He advises graduate students to find mentors who can inspire confidence and fuel their curiosity, emphasizing that hard work and dedication are essential for achieving success.

Balancing Professional and Personal Life

Balancing a demanding career with personal responsibilities has been a recurring theme in Dr. Tomalia's story. He shares candidly about the challenges of maintaining this balance, yet his passion for chemistry and the continual evolution of his work have kept him engaged and excited throughout the years.

Legacy and Future Directions

Dr. Donald Tomalia's contributions to the field of chemistry, particularly in dendrimer research, have laid a foundation for future innovations. As the CEO and owner of Nano Synthons LLC, and founder of companies like Dendritech and Dendritic Nanotechnologies, his work continues to inspire and drive progress in therapeutic delivery systems.

This conversation underscores the dynamic interplay between curiosity, mentorship, and persistence. Dr. Tomalia's journey serves as a testament to the potential of scientific inquiry and the transformative power of education. As Dr. Christopher Lewis eloquently closed the episode, it's clear that Dr. Tomalia's work will continue to influence and inspire future generations of chemists and researchers. For those seeking to follow in his footsteps, the University of Michigan Flint offers a robust platform to embark on their academic journey, with graduate programs tailored to provide comprehensive education and mentorship.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love going on a journey with you. And it is a journey because you may be at the very forefront of starting to think about graduate school. But you came to listen today because you're thinking grad school in some aspect, whether you're at the very beginning and you're just starting to look at different schools or different programs to see what's out there and what might be a possibility, or maybe you've already applied or gotten accepted. You know, you're somewhere in this continuum. You could even be in graduate school looking for that light at the end of the tunnel where you know that you've got another year ahead of you, and you're just working through this process for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Wherever you are, this podcast was set up to help you to find success in that journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to talk to you, talk to you about this journey, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you along the way. And we do that by bringing you different guests, different people that are able to tell you their story and able to share that journey that they went on so that you can learn from the things that went well, maybe things that didn't go well, and be able to take those things, internalize them, and find a path for yourself. Today, we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Donald Tomalia is with us today, and Dr.Tomalia started his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, but then went on and got a PH d at Michigan State University. Both of those degrees were in chemistry. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that he was on. I'm really excited to talk to him and the journey that led him to be the CEO and owner of Nano Synthons LLC, and I'm really excited to have him here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Doctor Tomalia, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:02:10]: It's my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: So first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And while you were at the University of Michigan Flint, you got a degree in organic chemistry. And somewhere along that line, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go further. You wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point in time and where you were at in your mind and why you decided graduate school was the right path for you.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:02:42]: I actually was going to the I went to the Flint Junior College for my first two years, and I had a real deep passion for chemistry and science, but didn't really quite know how I was gonna make a living at it. However, I found a couple of real mentors in the Flint, Junior College faculty as well as on the faculty of the, University of Michigan Flint College. And the key person at the U of M Flint was doctor Harry Blacker, who really started your whole chemistry department back in gosh, I even lost track of what decade it was, but it was back in the seventies, I think, or sixties or fifties. He was there only a few years before I arrived on campus from, Flint County College. I think they call it not community college. In any case, I I came from a middle class family. My father is an accountant, a CPA from Flushing. I was born and raised in the Flushing area.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:03:38]: I couldn't afford to go to a pedigree, school like Harvard or East or as West Coast University. So I had to find my education as close as possible, and I had to find an education route that would I could actually afford. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship not only from the Lions Club in the Flushing Flint area, but I got an undergraduate fellowship from the, University of Michigan Board of Regents that covered my 2 years in Flint. And it, I can tell you, is probably some of the most precious and important days of my life because it really launched me into a career that I have I'm 86, and I have never had a boring moment in my life, ever since I left my undergraduate days because I picked the right profession to match my personality, my interest, and it was a a unique way that I arrived there. And that it was because my I've been told my parents, especially my mother, knew that I was a person that once I understood something or I learned how to do something or I solve the problem, I get bored quite quickly. And her biggest challenge was to find things to keep me interested because I would be solving these things. And I said, oh, well, that's done. We don't have any more to do there.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:04:59]: So she said, if you're gonna ever feel you're going to be able to live a happy and fulfilling life, you're gonna have to really be sure you pick a profession or an area that you will love and enjoy. Like, it's a hobby, and it's not really like it's work the way we think of going to work and earning a living. And I was just fortunate enough to find that chemistry to me seemed to be that route. It seemed to be the core. It was the essence of everything that we have in in our life, all the way from the environment, to food, to medication, to the way we even live, fact that we depend on all of these intricate chemistry processes and and, just to have good health and to be alive. And in any case, this started me on a path that I thought was going to be like a hobby. I never thought about I was gonna have to make a living someday. And so I finished my 2 years at U of M Lamp.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:06:03]: I was mentored and coached by faculty members in Ann Arbor, U of Ann Arbor, and they encouraged me to go to a small university out east called Bucknell University. And several of the faculty members had either been students there or taught there, and they said it had the perfect environment for what I was looking for. And that was I I love solving problems. I love trying to understand what makes things work, what is life about, what are patterns, how does all of this come together to give us what we take for granted each and every day, and it it involves some type of chemistry or some form of chemistry. And when I made that trip out to Bucknell for a master's degree, everybody says you've gotta go on for your PhD. Where are you gonna go? Well, my father informed me that I can't be a professional student all my life. This is the time when I really have to be thinking about what I'm gonna do to make a living, and I had actually become married. I became married during that time, and I was actually 22, 21, and have our first child.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:07:12]: And so I was really encouraged to try to get into a paying professional position. And of all things, the Doc Chemical company came along and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse. It was during those golden years when there were so many jobs. I had, like, 12 or 13 job opportunities, and Dow was just one of them. But it turns out to be one of the best. So after finishing at Button Hill, I came back here to Midland to start working for Dom with a master's degree. And I within 2 to 3 years, I realized that all of a sudden, I've got 10 or 12 PhDs reporting to me for some reason because I've always have a lot of ideas. I always like to do things and get things done and improve things.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:07:55]: And Finding Dile Management said, Tamalia, you probably are going to have to go back and get what they call your union card. And they said it's called a PhD because if you have this PhDs working for you, it's gonna it's gonna get more difficult, with time not having some kind of proof that you have the qualifications to lead. And that is what prompted Don Langhorne to make a proposition to me, and that was if you are willing to go back and do your PhD, which by the at that time, they had a nice arrangement with Michigan State for graduate study. If you are willing to do that, we allow you to do all your research in our laboratories, and you won't have to leave your job. You could continue to make your salary, etcetera. I couldn't believe it. And in fact, they came through with flying colors because they literally paid for about 3 years of graduate work at Michigan State. I think only the only thing I had to pay for was the binding of my thesis, which was about $35.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:08:55]: And I had a complete PhD within 3 years after I started at Don Chemical Company. And it it's a strange way I didn't oh, the main reason is they had a residency requirement that I said I couldn't afford to take the 1 year off to go in the residency because I really had to earn the money to support my family. And they waived the residency requirement, and they allowed me to use that facilities to do my PhD research and my product altogether into a thesis. And I graduated in 1968 from Michigan State. And by the time, I was leading a pretty big group. I had 20 some people in my group by that time. And I was having so much fun. I almost couldn't find my way to have to leave the lab and come home every evening.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:09:38]: I just love being in the lab as much as I could, but it did lead to some other things that I'd like to share with you as time went on. And among them were because of this opportunity, not only created them by U of M Flint because they were close. They had good mentors there, especially doctor Harry Blecker, and there were people at the Mott College or the Flint Junior College at that time. One of them was was Adi Makela, professor Makela. He was a Finnish scientist who came and taught me a lot of analytical chemistry. But it was that unique environment in the Flint area. When I went back to visit with you folks a few months ago, I couldn't believe how much you have progressed in advance because I hadn't been there in quite a few years in the Flint area. But we were really housed in less than maybe 4 or 5 small to modest buildings.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:10:31]: That was the University of Michigan Flint College. But what get out of that experience that was so unique, in my opinion, was this close relationship with faculty members who were outstanding that had all kinds of unlimited time to spend with you. You didn't get I was never lost in big classes or big classrooms. I always had this mentorship that was always available, especially at U of M Flint with Harry Bleicker. And it was this mentorship, I think, that that carried me not only on to Dow, but really carried me on into the rest of my career because I've gone back and thought about key points that really made, decisions that led to where I am now, and they always involve an important mentor or a teacher or someone that gave very important critical advice. And you didn't think it was important at the time until you look back at it in retrospect. But you might wonder, well, where did this lead? Maybe you have other questions, but it did lead to the discovery of of probably one of the biggest scientific discoveries that I've had in my career, and that, may be defined as the area of the what they call nowadays dentamers and dendritic polymers. And dendritic polymers really came about because of kind of a fascination with patterns, with any kind of pattern that you could think of whether it be weather patterns for the best days to go fishing or patterns that you might see architecturally in nature.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:12:00]: And I was always fascinated about the branching patterns that we find in the branching of trees. This is really referred to as a dendron, and it is kind of a very rudimentary prototype or model to show just to demonstrate the kind of an ideal branching that one might expect to see in trees. And I was just fascinated, why did nature decide to pick on that kind of architecture for every tree and many, many plants in the world? And I've been linked to a little more sophisticated level and asked, why did nature use that same kind of architecture to design the neurons in our brains in a branching patterns, which look very similar to trees, a lot of little trees. That fascinated me. And it raised this really a challenge for me intellectually, and that was, is it possible to make a molecule that might imitate what this architecture looks like or what a tree looks like? And that is what led to this discovery of what we now call the area of dendomers, dendrons, and dendritic materials. And, just to give you a quick overview of it, they were discovered at the Dow Chemical Company in 1979, developed throughout the eighties, and then licensed out, and they became the basis for forming 3 start up companies that I founded. The first one being Dendrotech, which is still in business in Midland, Michigan. They still are making Dendro's.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:13:32]: And Dendro's, just to give you a a real quick understanding of what they look like, is shown on this book that I wrote just about 8 or 9 years ago. And this is a dendron. That's that right there is referred to as a dendron, a trunk with the branches. This is a dendron. This is a tridendron. Precise. You can measure them. You can work with them.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:13:54]: They are nanoscale, and they are being used today for several very important medical areas. And one of them being they are now currently under investigation for the next futuristic COVID virus. Back of this last pandemic that we had there, the person that received the Nobel Prize for coming up with a solution to it, doctor Drew Wiseman, he's at the University of Pennsylvania in the chemistry. He's an adjunct in pet chemistry there. He came up with the notion of how we they could use these dendymers to deliver messenger RNA, which we now know is a is the magic ingredient they use for the COVID vaccine. So dendymers, this idea, this obsession I had with patents and especially why trees chose to use them, finally led to just the last few years where now they are being actively looked at, researched, and used, and optimized for, future vaccines that will involve the use of messenger RNA much as they have been used by Pfizer and Moderna too in the last pandemic. The second area that is really active and looking very important is that there's a company called Star Pharma, which is another story. They are the recipients of many of my patents and they were used these patents to start the initial public offering of their company.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:15:23]: They're located in Melbourne, Australia and they are currently have some of the best targeted delivery therapies for treating cancer. And I'm talking about some really tough cancers like pancreatic, prostate, and they are able to target specifically these cancers using these dendromeric materials as carriers to carry the therapy. To kinda sum it up, those are some of the smaller areas. There are some other bigger areas that I won't have time to talk about. But to put it all together in a perspective that you might grasp, it's kind of as follows. These dendomers represent a 4th major category or classification of polymers that we refer to as dendritic macromolecules. How do they relate to all everything else that we know about in the world called plastics, polymers. If you go back to the first very first polymer that was discovered and invented, it was a linear, like a piece of spaghetti.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:16:17]: And it was a linear polymer, and it was discovered by Staudinger and a number of other very in famous people developed the nylons, corollars, and others. And it's at the bottom here, and it's called that is part of what poses the first category of polymers or linear materials. The second area, polymers, major architectural area of polymers are the crosslink polymers that we are everywhere in our life, and they're found in every tire that you've you've ever put on the car is a crosslink polymer. So these are crosslink polymers play a huge role in our lives, not only for tires and epoxies and for coatings, but for a whole variety of needs that we have for salver and other areas. And then the third is much less well recognized, but it's the simple branch polymers, which is the third category here, and it's now being used on a routine basis at the Dow Chemical Company and VA, the other major chemical companies. And it is what defines and develops the toughness that you find in in these shopping bags. Carry you got a shopping bag and they don't rip apart pull apart that easily. It's the toughness that they have is due to the low density of simply branched polyethylene.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:17:33]: And then our area now might become recognized as the 4th major telestendritic or polymers or hyperbranch system. And first company was founded in Midland, Michigan. It was founded as I took leave of absence from Dow Chemical Company, and it's still in existence. It was founded in 1991, and it it was a company that Dow eventually bought back from me, but allowed me to have keep some of my patents to develop a second company called Dendritic Nanotechnologies, and that company was founded here in Mount Pleasant. And it was funded partially by Star Pharma who eventually got patents from that, and they, in turn, allowed me to move on and form this 3rd company called Nano Synthons, and we currently are here in Mount Pleasant in a 5,000 square foot laboratory working on various versions and forms of these therapeutic materials shown here. As I've been sharing with you, Chris, we've been so busy this year because these architectural polymers that are very similar and related to the structures you see here are what we are having so much interest from, not only people around the country here in the US, but all over the world. And they, they are interested in them for new properties that they have brought. Whenever you create a new architecture at the molecular level, I mean, most chemists are very much aware of the fact that when you create a new architecture at the molecular level, you always see brand new properties.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:19:09]: So the big quest for anyone who is in science or especially chemistry is if you can create new architecture at the molecular level, you will absolutely expect to see brand new properties, and everybody wants to see new properties because then it creates new possibilities, whether it's procuring cancer or raising more food more productively or improving the environment or whatever. And so this is where we are as we speak today is we are at we are going beyond and further, I should say, into this path and this journey with Dendamers, and we are working with groups all over all over the US as well as in several from Europe. And that keeps me very busy even in my 8th decade of life, and I guess I've been actively working for probably 6 decades or more. In any case, to make a long story short about getting bored about solving problems, chemistry has really been a great friend and has served me well because it has this unique characteristic about itself that once you solve the problem, so many new questions are created that you never have an m. You always have something that you have to think about solving or understanding. That has left me in a state of excitement even in my 8th decade, and I have never had a moment of boredom, I can tell you, because of this profession I chose. And I'm really eternally grateful to U of M Flint for being there at the right time that I needed this means to get started because they really without the U of M Flint, I don't think I could have afforded to go to one of these fancier colleges out east because it was only because they were close by. I could commute to them to that location, and I had scholarships and funding not only by U of M Board of Regents, but by local scholarship granting agencies in the Flint, Flushing area.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:21:11]: And all I can say is I've had a full life, and I'm very grateful for that. I'm just very grateful for the fact that the U of M was there and was the right place to get started. And by the way, I found and I will tell anybody that is willing to listen to me. I got probably one of the best educations that you could ever find anywhere in the country. And I'm I'm adjunct professor at University of Pennsylvania as we speak in chemistry. I'm adjunct professor at the University of Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond in physics. I'm adjunct there in physics department. And everybody says, well, how where did you get your great background in all these areas? And It goes right back to the small classes that I was so blessed to be able to attend at U of M Flint and the amazing mentors that were there at the time.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:22:03]: And I'm missing a lot of the names. I didn't need to go back and relook up many of the other faculty members, but the one that stands out most to me is professor Harry Blecker. And I believe his son still lives in the Flint area and works at UConn Flint as I understand it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]: You've had a very busy career. And you as you said, you you made that jump from what is now Mott Community College to the University of Michigan Flint. And then you went to Bucknell, and then you ended up at Michigan State University. And in each of those stages, in each of those opportunities, when you transition into a new type of educational entity or environment, there's a transition that you go through, and you found success. When you went to Lucknow. You went to Michigan State. You found success. You got your degrees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:49]: You were able to continue your education and get gainfully employed as we've been hearing about. So thinking back on those transitions, you found success. What did you have to do in each of those transitions to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout each of those unique graduate school experiences?

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:23:11]: That's really an insightful question, and it's not an easy one to answer because it involved a number of parameters and a number of variables. I have in this insatiable curiosity to understand and know how things work. I'm still struggling with and trying to understand what's required to create life itself. It sounds philosophical, but it's a technically big and curious question to me. And chemistry, as it turns out, was that medium that allowed me to understand all the facts and the details that go into the working and the function of life itself, let alone practically everything that we have in our universe and on this planet. But to answer your question, what were some key things? I think it is pursuing these curiosities and not giving up when you will count came to a stand or a barrier or a big roadblock block just staying persistent, perhaps taking a a break and working in another area and eventually coming back. All of these various kinds of occurrences happen throughout that journey. But I think it's just having a strong curiosity, a strong persistence, and understanding, trying to come to the bottom of the, question and understand what really is making this happen or what is really causing something.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:24:28]: And that's something that you get only if you you have an opportunity to enjoy that only if you are enjoying what you are doing. And I believe that's a big part of the secret for my happiness at my stage after all these years in this area. I've really never had a boring day. I can honestly say I never had to work a day in my life. This has been one great big hobby that has given me not only a great living, but it's given me all kinds of joy and understanding. I'm doing a deep level of satisfaction about understanding things about the university that I would never had a reason to pursue had it not been to try to understand the chemistry behind it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:09]: Now as you think back to your graduate education and you think about people that are thinking about graduate school now, whether it's in chemistry, whether it's in English, it doesn't really matter. What are some tips that you would want to leave with others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:25:26]: I always felt identifying a good mentor, a person that is willing to spend the time with you, has confidence in your ability and your interest and in your willingness to work hard. But if you find that kind of a person or what I call an ideal mentor, they very often fill in all these gaps where you feel some doubt that, am I going the right way, or is this the way I should be moving on in my life? It's these mentors that come along the way. And I happen to have, as I mentioned, some 3 or 4 very important ones, and they all, of all things, had the first name Harold. At U of M Flint, it was Harold Liker. At Michigan State University, it was Harold Hart. At Bucknell University, it was Harold Heine. It was a coincidence that they all had the first name Harold, but they were all major mentors that stood out in my career as make helping me make some very important decisions and opening my eyes to some very important possibilities. And I really do have no idea what luck is.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:26:28]: I don't actually really believe in luck. I really believe hard work creates luck. Luck is something that people that should be to pay a success to. Oh, you're lucky because you you got this to happen because you were lucky. No. In my opinion, in my life, it's always been a lot of hard work that seems to create the possibilities that things happen that are good, that people call luck. And I firmly believe hard work is really the origin of luck good luck and success, and it takes different forms. It may mean sometimes your wife is not happy because she's spending too much time thinking science and chemistry and math thinking, maybe more, down to earth possibilities like getting the trash carried out or getting the lawn cut.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:27:15]: So it is really sometimes being too passionate about an area as I am with chemistry, if you be these issues that people don't understand that you can be so excited that you wanna spend a lot of your time thinking about a particular area or doing things in an area called, in my case, chemistry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:33]: Well, Donald, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own educational journey, but how that educational journey really led you to all of the discoveries, but also through the years of passion that you had with this, we'll say, hobby that has led to a career, which has led to the entirety of your profession and what you have identified and created throughout that period of time. And I really appreciate you sharing that with us, and I look forward to sharing it with others, and I truly wish you the best.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:28:07]: Thank you very much, Chris. And I just wanna say I am truly impressed, and I'm really very pleased to see how much progress in the advancements that have been made at the U of M campus in Flint. When I arrived there a few months ago back at for my first visit after probably 20 or 30 years, I couldn't even imagine or believe how much you have grown and how nicely you have grown. So leave it to say, as we finish, I'm left with some very fond and treasured memories of my days at Flint U of M, and I would highly recommend that campus to anybody, especially if you're having a financial or money problem where you can't afford to go to Harvard or to Stanford or wherever. And it gives you an education that holds up anywhere, in my opinion. In fact, many people could not believe that I had such a great grounding and a such a great background created by my experience at a small campus such as U of M Flint. So I will be forever beholding, to that opportunity I had in Flint. And I really appreciate you taking the time, Chris, to allow me to share this story and this little bit of my life.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:29:17]: There are a lot of other things I could tell you about, which would take way too much time, but I truly enjoyed this moment with you. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

As we approach the holiday season, it's time to reflect on your journey through the past year and look forward to new beginnings. Here's some advice for you during this special time.

Reflect on Your Accomplishments

It's easy to get caught up in the busyness of graduate school, but the holiday season offers a perfect pause. It is important to celebrate your progress, regardless of how small it may seem. Reflecting on your achievements is not just a pat on the back but a motivational exercise that reinforces your resilience and determination.

Recharge for the New Year

Graduate school can be both exhilarating and exhausting. The winter break is an excellent opportunity to rest and rejuvenate. We encourage you to take this time seriously, not only for self-care but also to reconnect with loved ones. Whether it's a peaceful retreat or festive gatherings, these moments are essential for mental and emotional well-being.

Setting Goals with Determination

As we bid farewell to one year and welcome another, goal-setting becomes crucial. Remember that being a graduate student is synonymous with rising to challenges. Therefore, as you jot down your aspirations for the new year, let them be guided by the same determination that has brought you this far.

University of Michigan-Flint: Your Partner in Success

For those considering further education, the University of Michigan-Flint offers a variety of master's and doctorate programs designed to meet diverse needs. Whether you seek in-person or online learning, explore the options available at umflint.edu/graduateprograms.

A Heartfelt Thank You

Tank you for being a part of this journey. As the Victors in Grad School podcast takes a brief hiatus, he assures you that they will return in January to continue inspiring and guiding you through your graduate studies.

Warm wishes for a joyful holiday season and a prosperous new year! For any inquiries, don't hesitate to reach out at [email protected]. Your path to success is just beginning.

TRANSCRIPTION

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, and welcome to the victors in I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And as always, I'm here to support and inspire you on your journey through graduate school. Today, I just wanted to take a few moments to connect with you as we wrap up the year and head into the holiday season. Whatever you're doing as you're preparing for the end of the year, this is the perfect time to pause, reflect, and recharge. Here at the University of Michigan Flint, our campus will be closing for a well deserved winter break, and we will be taking a short break from the podcast as well. Victor's in Grad School will return in January, refreshed and ready to bring you more inspiring stories and practical tips for succeeding in your graduate studies. During this break, I encourage you to take some time for yourself and for your loved ones.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]: Celebrate the progress that you've made this year because every step forward, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. And if you're setting goals for the new year, remember that as you prepare to be a graduate student, you truly are victors rising to meet challenges with determination and resilience. I wanna thank each of you for being a part of this journey with us. Your dedication to learning, growing, and achieving inspires me. And I'm honored to share this space with you. From all of us here at the University of Michigan Flint and the Victors in Grad School podcast, we wish you a joyful holiday season and a very happy new year. We'll talk to you again in 2025. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is an adventure, a transformative journey that pushes individuals to explore new horizons and discover their true potential. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Christina Blitchok, Director of Alumni Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, to unpack her unique journey from undergraduate studies to a fulfilling career path, underscoring the value of flexibility and perseverance in education.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Studies

From English Major to Education Advocate

Christina's academic journey began with a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from Albion College. Despite the common perception that an English degree naturally leads to a career in education, Christina initially had no intentions of teaching. It wasn't until her year with AmeriCorps, working as a reading fluency tutor in California's Coachella Valley, that she discovered her passion for education. Inspired by the impact she could have in the classroom, Christina returned to Michigan determined to pursue a Master's in Education, compounded with a secondary certification at the University of Michigan Flint.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Why University of Michigan Flint?

In her conversation with Dr. Lewis, Christina elaborated on her decision to enroll at the University of Michigan Flint. Familiarity with the campus and its intimate, collaborative learning environment played significant roles in her choice. The program's affordability and the accessible, supportive faculty made it an ideal setting for her intensive studies. Working directly with faculty and gaining real-world experience taught Christina invaluable lessons that would shape her career.

Transitioning and Thriving in Graduate School

Learning to Adapt and Overcome

Christina emphasized the transition from undergraduate to graduate studies as a critical period of self-discovery and adaptation. Unlike the lecture-based format of many undergrad courses, her graduate experience was collaborative and discussion-driven. This shift challenged her preconceived notions and honed her ability to engage with diverse perspectives. She also highlighted the need for practical time management skills, given the life changes she navigated, including working part-time and planning a wedding while studying.

Career Pivot After Graduation

Embracing Change and New Opportunities

After earning her degree, Christina spent three years teaching high school before realizing that her career needed to pivot due to personal circumstances, including the birth of her first child. Understanding the flexibility required in life and career, Christina transitioned into freelance writing and editing roles, leveraging the skills and perspectives gained during her graduate studies. Today, she works in marketing communications and alumni engagement, continuously applying the critical thinking and empathy fostered during her education.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Keys to Success in Graduate School

Concluding her interview, Christina imparted valuable advice for prospective graduate students:

1. Seek Mentorship Early

   : Establish connections with faculty and cohort members who can provide support and accountability.

2. Stay Flexible

   : Remain open to experiences and willing to evolve.

3. Combat Impostor Syndrome

   : Recognize that everyone is learning and growing.

4. Develop Effective Study Habits

   : Tailor your approach to suit your unique needs and circumstances.

Christina's story is a testament to the transformative power of graduate education. By embracing flexibility, seeking mentorship, and staying open to new opportunities, she exemplifies how one can successfully navigate and thrive in the ever-evolving landscape of academia and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it is a journey and you are on a journey as you're thinking about graduate school, as you're thinking about the next steps for yourself, as you're thinking about where you are in this continuum of thinking about graduate school, you could be at the very beginning. You might just be starting to think about, I think I might need additional education to be able to get that job that I've always wanted to move into that career, to be able to move up in a career, to get that promotion, to be able to do different things. Everybody has a different reason for wanting to look at that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: You could be someone that has already applied. You might have already applied and maybe, maybe you got accepted and now you're saying, is this the right step? Am I doing the right thing? I've gotten accepted. Do I want to make this jump? You could be in graduate school. Maybe at the very beginning, you could be getting closer to the end and seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. And no matter where you are, this podcast was built to help you to be able to find success in that journey. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that give you an opportunity to be able to look at graduate school in a little bit different way. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Christina Blitchok is with us today and is the director of alumni engagement at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: And Christina did her undergraduate work at Albion University and then Nope, Albion College. She did her undergraduate work at Albion College and then decided to get a master's of education degree at the University of Michigan Flint. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that she went on, learn a little bit more about her, and I'm really excited to have her here. Christina, thanks so much for being here today. I

Christina Blitchok [00:02:10]: am so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be here with you today and to learn a little bit more about your journey. And speaking of the journey, I wanna go back in time. I talked about the fact that you got a bachelor's degree in English language and literature at Albion College. And when you finish that, there was a little bit of time and then you made a decision to go back to school. And I know within that you, you jumped in, you got a little bit of experience. You did some work, you did some work after college where you used that English degree to be able to do some editing work, and then you were doing some English instruction. And so bring me back in time and bring me back to that point where you just said to yourself, I've gotta make that step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:54]: Why did you decide to go to graduate school?

Christina Blitchok [00:02:56]: Well, it's actually kind of funny when I was getting my English degree at Albion, everyone asked me, are you going to go into education? Because English is one of those degrees that, people pursue it because they love it, and there's not necessarily a very clear career path, after graduation. And my response when I was in college was a vehement no. I will never be a teacher. I will never go into education. It's just not something that I saw for myself at that point. But I think if I've learned anything, it's never say never. And that different experiences and different perspectives can really change your trajectory if you're open to it, if you hold things loosely and just kind of follow where your passions and your experiences lead you. So, after I graduated from Albion, I didn't have a clear a clear direction.

Christina Blitchok [00:03:52]: I thought about publishing, but publishing is unfortunately a really hard industry to get into right now. So I decided that I didn't wanna be idle and I didn't want to fall into a trap of jobs that I didn't necessarily feel passionate about. I'm kind of one of those people who needs to be passionate about their work, find meaning in it. I knew that I wasn't destined for, you know, punching a 9 to 5 job. So I enlisted in AmeriCorps, and I wanted to get out of Michigan. I love travel. So I actually signed up for an opportunity in Indio, California serving the Coachella Valley and English language learners in elementary school as a reading fluency tutor. And I should have anticipated it, but I fell in love with education.

Christina Blitchok [00:04:39]: And I fell in love with the impact that you can have on individual students' lives as an educator. So when I came back after my year in AmeriCorps, I had a fire lit under me, and I wanted to pursue education. And one of the things that pointed me to grad school was the incredible opportunity that University of Michigan Flint had in combining a master's in education with a secondary certification. So I didn't need to go back and start from square 1 and, get an undergrad degree in a in education and then be able to get certified, but I could combine the 2 and really dive deep in a really, really shortened but intense time frame. And I loved my experience there. It was it was a wonderful opportunity. It was a great decision. And I really appreciated the flexibility that it allowed and just building on things that I had learned in my undergrad, and then kind of propelling me forward much faster than going back and starting from square one would have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:44]: So talk to me a little bit about the decision, the decision that you made to go to the University of Michigan Flint. There are a number of different programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that offer the credential that you receive to be able to take a degree and turn it into something that you could teach. And the University of Michigan Flint's had one for a number of years, and you ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But as go back to that point where you were making those decisions, what were you looking for? What made you decide that University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Christina Blitchok [00:06:17]: Right. So I grew up in Fenton, which is about 20 minutes south of Flint. And I had been on U of M Flint's campus all throughout my life with different competitions and different camps. And so it was a place that felt familiar and felt comfortable for me, but I also loved the passion behind this particular program. It was just so much more personal. I was able to talk to the adviser right away. I was able to talk to some of the faculty because in a master's course, you are so personal, and it's so intimate, or in my experience, it was so getting to know those personalities and being able to talk to them 1 on 1 while I was making the decision of where to apply was really beneficial to me that I that I knew that that their perspective and their personalities were ones that I could see myself really diving deep with the affordability was also there. You know, going back to school just like a year and a half, 2 years after getting out of undergrad at especially at like a private school like Albion, affordability was a big factor.

Christina Blitchok [00:07:30]: But then I also was able to work on campus during my time, and I was actually an English instructor for a Saturday camp, the health professions school had for high school students. So I was able to get real world experience on top of my coursework. And I think that that would have really only happened as easily as it did a place like University of Michigan Flint, where it's smaller, everyone knows you, they know what you're looking for, they can help connect you. And the collaborative nature is really strong at this smaller sort of university. So talk to me about AmeriCorps,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:06]: because that's not a topic that we've talked a lot about in this podcast, podcast, but it is an opportunity. It is something that someone can take advantage of, whether it's right after an undergraduate experience, right after a graduate school experience that they could take advantage of to be able to use their degree, their education in a different way. Talk to me about what made you decide that you wanted to do that and use that English degree in that way and what you had to do to be able to be a part of that program.

Christina Blitchok [00:08:38]: I'm a researcher and I like having a plan. So I took the summer after I got my undergrad degree and just researched all of my options. In that time, I applied for some jobs. I looked into some internships, and I landed on AmeriCorps. The way that it was pitched to me is it's the domestic branch of the like the Peace Corps. And that combination of service and service and vocation was really attractive to me. I do. I did love working with kids.

Christina Blitchok [00:09:13]: I loved my dad's family was Hispanic. So I loved the idea of getting in touch with some of my cultural roots and being in being in an underserved community. And I really just wanted to broaden my horizons. Flint actually has a lot of great AmeriCorps opportunities, but it was a little close to home for me. So I I wanted to get out there and I wanted to learn learn things that I hadn't necessarily learned in the classroom in my predominantly white private liberal arts school. So that opportunity to expand my experiences and my perspectives. The process was relatively easy. AmeriCorps had at that time.

Christina Blitchok [00:09:55]: I'm not I haven't been on the website since, but they had a pretty great search function where you could search any you could filter down the type of opportunities that you were looking for based on location, based on based on the type of opportunity, if you wanted to be an education, if you wanted to be a nonprofit. So I was able to narrow it down. And then this opportunity in the Coachella Valley really stuck out to me. I was born in California, although on the western coast. So it was some place that was relatively familiar. I had some family in LA at the time, so it wasn't it was getting me out of my comfort zone, but was still a safety net. And then the education factor, being able to use my English degree, being able to learn more about the fundamentals of reading that I'd kind of taken for granted, you know, 4 years into writing papers and reading Britlet. So yeah, it was a relatively easy experience from first deciding that AmeriCorps was something that I wanted to pursue to getting my acceptance.

Christina Blitchok [00:10:55]: It was in the span of a month or 2. And then I was packing up and driving across the country with all of my belongings. So it was a great experience. I'm very thankful for it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:05]: Now we already talked about the fact that you made the choice after AmeriCorps to go back to school to get that teaching degree. And you chose to go to the University of Michigan, Flint. Now as you make those transitions, transitions from undergrad to grad, it is a transition and there are things that you have to learn along the way to be able to be successful in that transition. But you were successful. You found success in graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that graduate school journey?

Christina Blitchok [00:11:39]: On a kind of ideological level, in grad school, I had to confront a lot of my a lot of my biases, a lot of my preconceived notions about how the world works. I feel like there's a level of hubris when you get your undergrad degree that gets torn down pretty quickly when you're in grad school. You know, just that higher level of of research, that higher level of thinking, that pushback that faculty gives you. So going into conversations, especially with cohort members, like cohort members can sharpen you and and really help you grow by adding in their different perspectives. A lot of my undergrad courses were lecture style. They we were just absorbing expertise from a faculty member. And then really a lot of our own analysis was done individually where my grad school experience was very collaborative. We would read a text and then we would come ready to discuss it, ready to share opinions, ready to disagree on things.

Christina Blitchok [00:12:48]: So that was not something that I was very used to. And being able to find my voice in that sort of situation, being able to kind of synthesize my thoughts and rather than write a flowery paper about them, be able to argue with them with someone, who had different experiences than I did. That was difficult at first. Also just the academic side. My undergrad experience was kind of in a bubble. I was there to study. I didn't I had a very part time campus job, but for the most part, my entire world was focused around academics where in my grad school experience, I was working part time while balancing studies. I was getting engaged.

Christina Blitchok [00:13:33]: I was planning a wedding. There was a lot of life that I had to balance things with. So my studying habits had to change. It wasn't just gonna happen on a quiet night after I got home from whatever campus activity, like it needed to be scheduled. It needed to be more regimented and it needed to be more flexible. I couldn't be so precious about my study and surroundings and you know, waiting for my favorite table in the library to open up like it needed to happen when it happened. And that was a great lesson in flexibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So one of the questions that I'm going to ask you is this because you did complete your degree, and you went off, and you taught for a few years, and then you left education. So talk to me about getting that degree, using it, but then pivoting and finding that maybe being in a classroom was not where you were meant to be, but that a different path was right for you.

Christina Blitchok [00:14:33]: I loved the 3 years that I spent in a classroom. I felt like I was very well prepared and it was everything that I hoped that I would be. I loved that impact that I had on students. I loved the relationships that came out of it. I loved the creativity of lesson planning and building curriculum, but I actually left the class room when, you know, I talked earlier about flexibility and being able to pivot and how different different experiences and perspectives can kinda change your trajectory if you're open to it. And I got pregnant with my first child, and I felt the need to pivot in that moment. And I think that my journey up until that point, not knowing what I wanted to do, feeling led to education, doing my grad school experience and then teaching, like, it kind of was a perfect setup to I wasn't completely thrown off course by the idea of taking a moment to figure out if teaching was still right for me. Like, it wasn't as scary as it would have been if I had come out of undergrad with a very firm idea of what I wanted to do and then not being able to deviate from that.

Christina Blitchok [00:15:47]: It's funny, like my degree is in education, but I feel like I still use a lot of what I learned in my grad school experience, if only because my experience in my master's course opened my eyes so much to experiences that were not my own. You know, a lot of my coursework was in Detroit Schools and kind of the unbalanced education system and, you know, the systemic problems that I was very unaware of growing up in suburbia. And it's something that I continue to be passionate about today. It's something that makes me really passionate about the city of Flint, where I ended up landing and living and raising my family. So I am still thankful for my master's degree and my coursework even if my trajectory pivoted. It's something that enriched enriched my perspectives. It shaped who I am and the skills that I learned in research and collaboration and being open to other people's perspectives is something that's gonna serve me even when I'm retired and out of a career altogether. So after I decided that the classroom was not going to be a place where just in my personality, I'm very introverted.

Christina Blitchok [00:17:02]: I gave my everything to my students and it left very little for my outside life. So I transitioned to more freelance and editing, freelance writing, and allowed me to stay home when my children were young. And then I started working hybrid in more like marketing communications engagement roles. And I think that my experience in my getting my grad degree really helped with that role because it allowed me to really listen to other people's stories, to learn from other people's experiences, and then be able to connect with them even if there was differences. So yeah, and now I'm here and I'm loving it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:42]: So talk to me about what you have taken out of that graduate degree that you find that you're using on a regular basis in the work that you're doing today?

Christina Blitchok [00:17:52]: I think that working in a place especially like U of M Flint, really my experiences and and all that I learned really set me up well to understand not only our incoming students, I was a senior English teacher in high school. So the students that are joining us in the fall are exactly like the students that I saw and waved out the door every May. So I understand their thought processes. I understand what they're looking for. I understand how many of them see themselves as academics, the wounds that they have, the wounds that growing up in the education system can inflict on you, things that they believe about themselves. I understand the impact that faculty and staff can have on student experiences and then how that translates into alumni experiences. I understand that one positive relationship can really change the trajectory of someone's academic career. One person that roots for them, one person that believes in them, one person that says I see you and I understand you, that can really have ripples of impact for years to come.

Christina Blitchok [00:19:01]: And I saw it as a high school teacher. I see it now working in higher education. My ability to collaborate with people who don't agree with me, that comes from my experience in my grad program. Being able to empathize and honor other people's stories, even if they don't reflect my own. That came from my experience in my grad program. My ability to put aside personal opinions to come to a solution that came from my coursework. And then just my awareness of a world outside of my own experience that came from my coursework as well. And the willingness to be self aware enough if I'm not looking beyond my own experiences.

Christina Blitchok [00:19:50]: So there's practical things. I think that I'm a much more focused person, I learned how to hack my personality and be able to, you know, be able to get things done even when life is crazy and manic because my life definitely reflects more my grad school experiences rather than my undergrad. I've not been in the same sort of bubble. So So just being able to to get work done, to prioritize tasks, prioritize my own learning, no matter what else is going on around me has been really helpful every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Now as you look back at your graduate education, and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Christina Blitchok [00:20:34]: Lean into mentorship right away. Start identifying people whether it be faculty or staff that you feel like would be able to support you and keep you accountable and give you that example of what's possible after you graduate. Don't wait until you're struggling to reach out for help. It's much easier to front load that support. Don't hesitate to make connections with your fellow cohort members. Don't listen to the voice of impostor syndrome. Nobody knows what they're doing. That's a secret that I learned only recently.

Christina Blitchok [00:21:14]: Nobody knows what they're doing. So don't be afraid to ask questions to be vulnerable, lack of vulnerability, The only thing that it achieves is closing you off to learning and growing. So you don't need to have things figured out. You don't need to have all of your ducks in a row to apply or to start a degree a lot. And in fact, I I think that you're going to be much more successful if you walk in open to experiences and open to where your coursework might lead you and that nothing is wasted. No experience is wasted if you've learned something and if you carry something from that experience with you. And then just practically find study habits, find times, find find resources that work for you even if they don't look the way that you think they should, or if they don't look the same as your other cohort members or find something that that speaks to you and that works for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:10]: Well, Christina, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and all that you've learned along the way in this journey that you've had thus far, and I truly wish you all the best.

Christina Blitchok [00:22:21]: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating Emotional and Psychological Barriers with Juanita Tookes

In this week's University of Michigan's Victors in Grad School podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis has Dr. Juanita Tookes, Assistant Director of CAPS, discuss the often-ignored but highly prevalent issue of imposter syndrome. Together, they uncover the intricacies of this phenomenon and explore effective strategies for overcoming it.

Understanding Imposter Syndrome

Imposter syndrome affects a staggering 70% of individuals at some point in their lives, manifesting as a persistent feeling of being a fraud despite clear evidence of one's achievements. Dr. Lewis underscores its ubiquity among graduate students and professionals, emphasizing how these feelings can lead to self-doubt, harsh self-critique, and even self-sabotage.

Juanita Tookes explains that societal stereotypes, particularly those related to family dynamics and cultural expectations, can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy. She highlights how marginalized groups, especially those with intersectional identities, often feel the added pressure of proving themselves in professional and academic spaces.

Recognizing Different Types of Imposters

Understanding the different manifestations of imposter syndrome is crucial for developing tailored coping mechanisms. Tookes categorizes imposters into five types:

• Natural Genius:

  Believes that their knowledge is never sufficient, resulting in an endless quest for more information.

• Perfectionist:

  Feels that their work is never flawless, leading to constant stress and anxiety.

• Expert:

  Constantly strives to prove their expertise, fearing being perceived as unknowledgeable.

• Super Person:

  Avoids asking for help to maintain an image of self-sufficiency.

• Soloist:

  Prefers to work alone to hide any perceived inadequacies.

Combatting Imposter Syndrome

To combat imposter syndrome, Juanita Tookes offers several practical strategies. One key method is to reframe thinking patterns, shifting negative self-talk toward positive beliefs and actions. Embracing positive feedback and focusing on personal achievements, no matter the size, can significantly boost self-esteem.

Reframing Perceptions: From Fear to Excitement

A crucial insight shared involves the body's inability to differentiate between fear and excitement. According to Tookes, recognizing this can help individuals cognitively reframe their experiences and interpret them positively. This perspective shift can prevent fear from dominating their mindset.

Avoiding Comparisons

A pervasive issue exacerbated by social media is the tendency to compare oneself to others. Both the host and guest stress the importance of staying focused on one's unique path and capabilities, as comparison often leads to a distorted view of self-worth.

Embracing Self-Compassion and Growth

Self-compassion is essential when dealing with imposter syndrome. Tookes emphasizes the importance of acknowledging personal efforts and progress. She encourages listeners to confront their inner critic and take pride in doing their best, rather than succumbing to self-criticism.

The Value of Mistakes in Learning

Mistakes are an inevitable part of growth and should be viewed as valuable learning opportunities. Tookes advises individuals to adopt a growth mindset, where challenges are seen as stepping stones rather than obstacles.

Final Thoughts

Overcoming imposter syndrome requires a multi-faceted approach, combining self-compassion, positive self-affirmation, and a growth mindset. By reframing perceptions and celebrating personal achievements, individuals can navigate the emotional and psychological challenges associated with imposter syndrome and embrace their true potential.

For more insights and practical advice, tune into the full episode of Victors in Grad School where Juanita Tookes offers invaluable guidance on facing and overcoming imposter syndrome.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, everyone. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm doctor Lewis, director of Michigan Flint. And I want to say thank you for coming today to learn about this important topic, imposter syndrome. So many times I talk to students, whether they're in their first term or they're in later terms, you know, imposter syndrome always creeps in and it's definitely something that as graduate students that we always feel at least once in our graduate school experience. When we're learning new things, when we're asked to put our skills to the test, no matter what it is, there's always that little whisper in our ear that tends to hit us. I mean, and and that doesn't stop in grad school. I hate to say it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]: It doesn't stop. It it continues on as you get into your professional lives and do it and such, but there are things that you can do to mitigate that and help with that. And today, Juanita Tooks is with us today. And Juanita is our Assistant Director of CAPS. And I've had the great opportunity to be able to have her on doing some different presentations in the past. And she's great. You're gonna love hearing from her today. But I'm really excited to have her here to talk to you about this important topic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm gonna turn it over to her. Juanita, thanks so much for being here today.

Juanita Tookes [00:01:29]: Thank you so much for having me. Let's get into talking about imposter syndrome because that's something that everybody experiences. And I was reading some research about, I think about there was a research study, in which 70% of the population of that study had said and reported that they had experienced or were experiencing imposter syndrome. 70% is a large number. So it just goes to show that this is something that's common. It's not permanent. And we're gonna talk about what it is and how to navigate it. It's before you can have any solutions to anything, you have to understand the problem.

Juanita Tookes [00:02:05]: You have to understand the nature. You have to understand the origin. But we can't be stuck there. Once we have an understanding of what's going on, that's when we can better identify how we can navigate with solutions. So let's get into talking about imposter syndrome and what that involves. So what is it? So imposter syndrome is a psychological experience. So it's feeling like you are a fraud. And I want to really highlight the fact that it's a psychological experience because it means that there's a lot of different things, lot of different thoughts and perceptions going on in your mind about your own abilities, your own capabilities, maybe what other people think of you.

Juanita Tookes [00:02:44]: It's one of those things to whereas the mind is truly a battlefield. There is a lot that goes on in here. So with this experience of feeling like a fraud, this is based off of what a person thinks about how they have attained what they have. So as you can see from the picture on the right, you have a person who is getting excellent grades. They have certificates, they have degrees, they have accolades. They're getting praise. Good job. They're very productive, very innovative.

Juanita Tookes [00:03:12]: But look at the person's face. Right? Even though they have all of these things, it seems like the facial expression doesn't quite match everything that they have. And so this is what imposter syndrome looks like, whereas you have to put on a face and act like that you agree with everything everybody is saying about you, but internally, you don't agree because you don't feel worthy. You don't feel deserving. You don't feel like you actually had what it took to get what you have. So you wanna make sure that you are evaluating your belief system about yourself because this is based on a person's beliefs about their achievements. Despite contradicting evidence that supports a person's accomplishments, the fear of being found out as a phony is very, very real. Imposter syndrome is something that's really difficult to deal with because like the last point highlighted, there is evidence.

Juanita Tookes [00:04:02]: You got into graduate school, you got the acceptance letter, you submitted the documentation to prove that you have what it takes to be successful as a UN Flint grad student, but you still feel like I don't deserve to be here. Maybe it was just a stroke of luck. They just needed to fill out the program, so they just let me in. So again, it's you battling with you in your own mind about great things that you're doing. So it's not enough to just have the accolades and the praise and the grades and the certificates and all of that. Your belief in yourself also has has to match that. Because if there's a mismatch, it does it doesn't matter. You can make straight a's every semester.

Juanita Tookes [00:04:41]: If you don't believe in yourself, then you're always going to make an excuse as to why what you have is something that's undeserving of you. So in the last point, it talked about this fear of being found out as a phony. Right? So imposter syndrome can elicit different feelings and thoughts and behaviors, including self doubt, harsh self critique, self sabotage, pushing yourself way too hard, comparing yourself to others, difficulty accepting praise, rejecting praise, minimizing success, and creating very high standards. So it's one of those things to whereas when we talk about all of these different feelings, sometimes people feel as though they have to prove to other people that they deserve to be where they are, even though the evidence speaks for itself. When you don't believe in yourself, you will put yourself in a position to feel as though you have to prove to other people that you deserve to be in this program, that you deserve this job. And the whole thing about that is it's unnecessary. You really don't have to prove anything to anyone, but there's reasons for this too, that we're going to get into a little bit later in the presentation as to what other external factors go into a person feeling like they have to prove themselves. But if you think about creating high standards and pushing yourself way too hard and critiquing yourself really, really tough, this can also provoke feelings of anxiety because of the intense pressure that you're putting on yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:06:07]: And of course, along with anxiety, there's other mental health obstacles that can manifest from imposter syndrome. And anxiety is a very intense emotion. It requires a lot of emotional energy to to be anxious. And after feeling so much prolonged anxiety, this may also lead to depression, which is you basically fizzling out. You've been so nervous and you've been so anxious and you've been so worried and you've been so concerned and you've been so on edge to whereas now you're fizzling out and just feeling sad and maybe you're having pity parties for yourself. Maybe you're just really feeling like withdrawn. Maybe you should quit. Maybe you should give up.

Juanita Tookes [00:06:45]: So these mental health obstacles can continue to manifest in negative ways if we don't address this issue. So the key to all of this, and I said this in the last slide, is you have to re examine and reevaluate your belief about yourself. Do you And I think the, the question that I'm asking the audience today is, do you believe in yourself? I don't think that this is a question that we often take time to ask, but when we're talking about imposter syndrome and how many people actually experience this, this is a very key question. And you have to be honest with yourself. Do you believe in yourself? Do you believe that you can do this? Do you believe that you can pass this class? Do you believe that you can be successful? And if the answer is yes, great. But if the answer is no, I would also say that's it's a positive thing in a way because at least you are being honest with yourself about where you are with your belief system. And the good news about that is that you can change that system. You can change that belief.

Juanita Tookes [00:07:42]: Okay. So we have some illustrations here that kind of show another outside perspective of imposter syndrome. So if we look at the comic strip on the left, you see a person who's sitting there, and they're receiving a lot of positive feedback. Look at all of the positive speech bubbles there. And the person is like, I guess. You know, I okay. But then you look in the bottom, on the bottom of that same strip, the person receives one negative comment, and that's what they feed into. You're right.

Juanita Tookes [00:08:11]: I'm a failure. It's true. It's one of those things to whereas as a society, as a world, we can receive 100 of 100 of positive compliments and accolades and praise, but we are used to just feeding into the negative. And this is how you start to change your beliefs about yourself. What do you choose to, to pay attention to? Let's just say that you get your test back. You took an exam, you get your test back. You got most of the questions, right? You got 2 questions wrong. You're focusing on those 2 questions.

Juanita Tookes [00:08:43]: I used to work with students as an academic advisor, so I'm very used to students focusing on the minimal and maximizing it. That was a stupid answer. I don't know why I said that. Even though they passed the exam, still did very well, they're focusing on 2 questions that they wish they would have answered in a different way instead of just saying, hey. I got 2 questions wrong. I passed the test. I'm very proud of myself because I studied really hard. We tend to really focus on the negative and dismiss the positive.

Juanita Tookes [00:09:11]: When you look at the the comic on the right, you have 3 people here. This is doctor Adams. She's a social psychologist and the world's top expert on imposter syndrome. And the doctor says, don't be silly. There are lots of scholars who've made more significant. Oh my god. And, basically, she's saying, oh my god. I'm doing it.

Juanita Tookes [00:09:29]: I'm a world renowned expert on imposter syndrome, yet I am showing imposter syndrome in this in this conversation right now. So let's talk about the types of imposters. So we have 5 different categories here. And when we talk about the person who is the natural genius, this is somebody who believes that everything that comes natural to them is pretty much not enough as far as knowledge. There's always more that I can know. There's always more information. This person is typically not satisfied with the knowledge that they have. And I think to a certain extent, that's okay.

Juanita Tookes [00:10:04]: But when you're not letting up on yourself to appreciate all that you do know, you put yourself in a position to say, it's never going to be good enough. I have to know more. I have to know more. And if you think about it, there is no person in this world who knows every single thing. So you have to be okay with the amount of knowledge that you have in a given situation, in a given circumstance. If you want to learn more, that's great. But you don't want to put it in the, in the perspective of, I have to know more because I need to know more because I don't know enough. The perfectionist.

Juanita Tookes [00:10:39]: I will be the 1st to raise my hand and say, I am a recovering perfectionist. With these individuals, what you're doing is not good enough. So with the natural genius, the knowledge that you have isn't enough as far as volume, as far as what's already there. You could learn more. With a perfectionist, you can do better. Like, I know you spent all night on this project, but I am going to nitpick, and this is not good, and that's not great. You could have said this better. This could look better.

Juanita Tookes [00:11:06]: Again, this is putting intense pressure on you to be perfect. And just like I said that there is no one person that knows every single thing, there is nothing in this world that is perfect. Everything has error to it. As flawless as it might look or be experienced, there is no one thing that is perfect. That is a very, very high and unrealistic bar to try to reach. And when you put yourself under the pressure of being perfect, it can really put you in a mental state of just anxiety and high intense level stress. When we talk about the expert, this is someone who they feel as though they have to be an expert to show and prove to the world that they are capable of having knowledge and being able to talk about certain things. If I don't sound like an expert, that means I might sound like a fool.

Juanita Tookes [00:11:53]: If I don't sound like this, if I don't know this, if I don't understand every aspect of this concept, then I might be looked at as someone who is insufficient or deficient in knowledge. And you can see a lot of related components when we talk about the types of imposters. The super person, that's the person who says, if I have to ask for help, then I'm weak. I'm inferior. I have to show the world that I can achieve success all on my own. I don't need help from my teachers. I don't need tutoring. I don't need to talk to an academic adviser.

Juanita Tookes [00:12:26]: I don't need to ask for help from my professors. I don't need to be in a study group. Like, I don't need any help at all. I'm gonna take all of this on because if I have to ask for help, that means that that's gonna be a sign that people know that I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be in this place if I'm asking for help. An example that's kind of outside of the student realm is even in my role, when I first got into this role, I talk with my team about the fact that I know I'm gonna make mistakes and I'm gonna ask questions. If I was a person who was a super person, I'm also a recovering super person as well. I would say, hey, given my title of assistant director, you don't ask for help.

Juanita Tookes [00:13:04]: You're the one who's supposed to have all the answers. You're the one who's supposed to know everything. If you ask for help, that's gonna make you look like you don't know what you're doing. These are very realistic examples of how people think through things in their mind because they don't wanna be looked at as a fake or a fraud or a phony. The soloist is the person who is like, I can just I can just handle it all on my own. Like, I can just I can just hang by myself. I can this is I I when I think about the soloist, I think about, like, the independent student, the student who doesn't wanna really work in groups, who really doesn't want to network, the student who's just kind of like a loner. Because, again, associating with other people and maybe partnering to work more efficiently, it could kinda show that maybe I can't get things done on my own, and this would confirm that I am indeed a fraud, and I do not need to be in the place that I am right now.

Juanita Tookes [00:13:55]: So I think it's important to also talk about origins as far as what contributes and causes imposter syndrome. Family dynamics, how you were raised, the messages that were communicated in your home environment, cultural expectations and stereotypes. This is something that's very important. When I was in grad school, I went to predominantly white colleges. And so given the history of black people, not being able to experience the opportunities of higher education for 100 and 100 of years, there was the stereotype that black people were inferior, that they were not capable. We were not capable of learning or attaining any higher type of education. And so sometimes even unconsciously, certain stereotypes that belong to a cultural group or ethnicity, or maybe just expectations of your culture can put into your mind. This thing that I have to prove, I have to prove that I'm not inferior.

Juanita Tookes [00:14:52]: I have to prove that that I'm intellectual. I know, you know, the trajectory of, you know, of history has shown that, you know, certain groups of people may think of certain things about me and my capabilities, but I am gonna show and I'm gonna prove you wrong. That is an intense level of pressure to put yourself under as far as proving people wrong. I had to realize in my experience that even though my ancestors were not able to have the opportunities to pursue a higher education like me, times were indeed different to a certain extent. And even though things like racism and discrimination still exist because I did experience those things in grad school, I still had to realize that times were much better than what my ancestors were in. And I did not have to prove anything to anyone. I could work hard and work diligently and celebrate myself, but I did not have to prove to anyone that I was smart or intelligent. So sometimes we have to be come, we have to be more aware culturally, racially, ethnically about maybe expectations that are put on us or certain generational messages that we may have unconsciously ascribed to so that we're not putting undue pressure on ourselves to work way harder than we should be.

Juanita Tookes [00:16:06]: Personality traits, existing mental health concerns. So if you're already having some, mental health struggles and maybe you have, a history of experiencing some mental health obstacles, this could also make you feel like you don't deserve to be in certain places, like a graduate program, a certain job position, for example. And mental health obstacles do not disqualify you. I just wanna say that. Because a lot of people experience I wanna say, if I could safely say it, I don't have research to back this up, but everyone has had a mental health obstacle in their lives. I can bet you. Everyone has. As far as how that manifests and shows up in the length of time, intensity, severity, frequency, that all differs.

Juanita Tookes [00:16:47]: But I can tell you that I I wanna say that every person has had some type of mental health Nicole, and that does not disqualify you from being successful. New opportunities and responsibilities. Right? Stepping into a new role, stepping into a higher level of education, like going from undergrad to grad. This can make you feel a little fearful because things are new and the ante has been upped. You know what I mean? And so when we start to feel that pressure, we might start to tell ourselves that maybe this is too much for us. Maybe we weren't ready. Maybe I shouldn't apply for this program. Maybe this major is too hard.

Juanita Tookes [00:17:20]: You know, maybe I should have waited. So new things can also contribute to imposter syndrome. Intersectional identities in certain spaces. I think it's very important to recognize that we have intersectional ident identities, multiple layers of who we are, which can make it difficult in certain spaces. I am a black woman. You can't separate me being black from me being a woman. And so because I am aware that I belong to 2 marginalized groups, I have to realize that my intersectional identity in certain spaces may be perceived in certain ways, which I have experienced before. But just because other people might have an issue with my identities, I cannot feed into that by saying, you know what? What these people might think about me is probably right.

Juanita Tookes [00:18:04]: Like, I am a black woman in engineering. I should not be in an engineering program because this is typically for men. You know, me being a woman, I should probably go into another field because I'm gonna have a very difficult time here. I'm the only woman in my class or, you know, something like that. Like, this is how I our intersectional identities and our own perceptions about ourselves and what we believe about ourselves can show up and possibly put us off track for success. So we wanna make sure that we are aware of all of these things so that we can navigate and overcome so that we can continue on the path that we wanna be on to be successful and attain what we want out of life. So now that we've talked about the nature of imposter syndrome, what it is, how it shows up, what contributes to it. Now we we wanna talk about solutions and how to overcome that.

Juanita Tookes [00:18:54]: So reframing is a very powerful skill in counseling. I often use this skill with my clients. Let's just imagine that they're looking at a picture this way. I'm not changing anything about the picture, but what I'm going to do is offer them a different angle so that they can look at it another way. And that's basically what reframing is. In order to stop feeling like an imposter, you have to stop thinking like an imposter, because it all starts from what you are thinking about yourself. Your thoughts feed into your beliefs. Your beliefs feed into your actions.

Juanita Tookes [00:19:28]: Your actions determine how you show up in certain spaces and in certain rooms. It determines what you decide to pursue and not to pursue. So in a way, you have to really you have to set a line with yourself to choose how you're going to think about a given experience. I was reading, some research when I first created this presentation that I thought was extremely interesting. The body can't differentiate between the feelings of fear and excitement. So physical responses to both feelings are very similar. Your nervous system becomes aroused, and you know this because of the physical sensations you feel inside of your body. Your body tells you how you're feeling, but you have to tell your mind how to mentally interpret the experience.

Juanita Tookes [00:20:13]: I'm just going to kind of let that sink in for just a second because that's pretty powerful. When I read it, I was like, oh my gosh, you have to tell your, your mind how to interpret this experience because your physical body will not be able to tell the difference. And I want you to think about moments where you have felt excited and moments where you have felt fear or afraid. And I want you to think about the similarities in those body sensations. They pretty much feel the same way. So if your body can't tell you what's going on, you have to tell you what's going on. Because if you don't tell your mind how to interpret this experience, if your mind is good, your, the gap in your mind is going to be filled with fear, fear has no problem filling in the gap and telling you this opportunity. This is something that you need to be very, very afraid of.

Juanita Tookes [00:21:04]: I know you haven't taken a graduate level class before, and you're feeling really nervous. This is something that's very, you should be very, very afraid. That's how you should feel. That's what fear will tell you. But what I'm going to tell you in this presentation is you have the power to tell your mind something different. You can tell your mind, wow, I've never been to graduate school before. I've never taken this type of class before, but you know what? I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited to learn something new. And I know at the end of this, I'm going to pass this class.

Juanita Tookes [00:21:36]: I'm going to pass this class. You have the power to change the narrative in your mind from a narrative of fear to a narrative of success and excitement about all that you're going to achieve with this new experience. So I think this is probably one of the most powerful slides in this presentation, because with this, I always like to emphasize the power that you have, just because your body can't tell the difference. That doesn't mean that you leave the gap in your mind empty to only be filled with something fearful. You do have the power to tell yourself that even though I'm feeling a little shaky, I am going to be successful. And this is something that is going to it's it's it's exciting. It's new. I'm going to do this.

Juanita Tookes [00:22:17]: I got this. So some more solutions as well that's going to help counter the negative impact that with imposter syndrome is celebrating your wins. I don't think people do that enough. I mean, I think there's certain things and certain times where people know they need to celebrate something like birthdays, graduations, maybe job promotions. But there's so many other windows and spaces in your life that can be filled with celebrating wins. If you have met a personal goal, and we're not talking about big and small goals, a goal is a goal. You know what I mean? Your personal goal might be to get more physical activity in your schedule. So instead of driving to certain places, maybe you're walking a little bit more, or maybe you have finally solidified a study routine that you have committed to.

Juanita Tookes [00:23:04]: And you're seeing some positive results from that. We're not talking about just celebrating after you take and pass an exam. We're talking about celebrating the fact that creating an effective study schedule was very difficult for you. But because you met with an advisor, you got some information, you you built up the discipline to study routinely, and now it's showing in your grades. That's something to celebrate, you know, before you even get the grade back on the test, celebrate the fact that you completed the test, that you studied and you finished it. Yes. You still have to wait on the grade, but you don't have to wait on the grade to celebrate the fact that you put forth a great effort, Embrace praise. A lot of times people are like blocking play praise left and right.

Juanita Tookes [00:23:48]: Instead of blocking praise, I encourage you to open up yourself to saying thank you. It's amazing to me how no matter what the compliment might be, how quick we are to dismiss and minimize positive information that we're getting about ourselves. I gave the example the last time I did this talk about I was wearing a shirt into work one day, and somebody had complimented me on the shirt. Instead of just saying thank you, I said, well, you know what? I grabbed this off of the clearance rack. You know, it was just something that I needed, you know, in a pinch. And after that interaction, I had to ask myself, why are you first of all, this person didn't need all of that information. A simple thank you would have sufficed, but then I had to sit and reflect. Why were you so quick to shoot down that compliment? Why couldn't you just say thank you? Like, do you not think that the shirt that you're wearing is nice? And so when I had this moment of reflection, I realized that I really do a lot of praise blocking instead of praise embracing.

Juanita Tookes [00:24:47]: So that is something that I wanna make you all aware of. We're all in this together. Right? Because like I said, I experienced imposter syndrome too. A lot of people do. So this is something that I have to constantly remind myself that when I get a compliment or positive feedback, when I feel that blocking coming up, I have to remind myself to go from this to this. Stop comparing is another solution. Social media is a big contributor to this. But I want you to make sure that you understand that nobody else is your measuring stick.

Juanita Tookes [00:25:17]: You do not have to and should not compare yourself to anyone because everybody is uniquely different. So if you're comparing yourself to your peer, you're comparing grades. You know, people are, everyone is a different kind of learner. Everyone doesn't study the same. Everyone doesn't, perceive information the same. So I know a lot of times students talk, and depending on what they talk about, they start to feel bad about themselves and maybe what they did do or what they didn't do or maybe what they should be doing more of, or I wish I can know these things like you. You're taking the focus off of you and your uniqueness and your greatness. And now it's shifting.

Juanita Tookes [00:25:49]: Your attention is shifting on to somebody else. And now you're looking at everything that they're doing and you want to know what they're doing. So I know it's hard to do because we are surrounded by stimuli and information all the time. So it's very easy to start comparing. But what I want to encourage and kind of gently challenge you to do is once you start feeling like you're starting to compare, and you will know that you'll start feeling that way because you'll start feeling bad about yourself, you want to nip that in the bud and say, whatever I'm looking at that's causing me to feel bad about where I am at in my life, I'm going to put the phone down. I'm going to unplug. Maybe you need to change the topic of the conversation or exit the conversation altogether, but just know that where you are is where you're supposed to be. You are a unique individual who has a unique way of thinking and being about this world.

Juanita Tookes [00:26:40]: It's not a race. You are in your own lane and there's no need to compare. Grace and compassion, very important. You want to make sure that you are being, that you're letting up on yourself and you're not being, remember in the previous slide when I talked about harsh critique and being very hard on yourself, you want to make sure just like the little picture is doing, you're giving yourself grace and compassion. When you make mistakes, it's okay. It's okay. Yesterday, I made a mistake yesterday with one of my staff. I went home, and I could feel that harsh self critique.

Juanita Tookes [00:27:10]: Why did you do that? I mean, duh. Like, the answer was clearly this. Like, why did you say this? And I had to say in that moment, I give myself grace and compassion for what was going on at that time that was the best answer that I could give. In hindsight, I could have given another answer, but I understand this context of the situation and why I did what I did. You have to give yourself grace because you're not always going to have all the answers. You're never really going to have all the answers because no one does, but give yourself grace. When you make mistakes, give yourself some understanding because depending on certain situations and certain things, maybe you couldn't have done more than you did. Maybe you studied the best you possibly could, or maybe you did all of the actions that you knew of at that time.

Juanita Tookes [00:27:54]: Like don't criticize yourself to say you should have did more and you shoulda did this. If you didn't know it at the time, there's no way you could have done it. Give yourself compassion and kindness just like you would your friend or family member or even a stranger. It's funny how we're willing to give more grace and compassion to somebody who we don't know at all versus ourselves, and we've been with ourselves our whole lives. Growth mindset. I kind of met kind of talked about some some aspects of this when I was talking about grace and compassion, but you wanna make sure that your mind stays open for growth. And an element of openness is giving yourself grace when you make mistakes and understanding that those mistakes do not define you. You wanna make sure that you have an open way of thinking compared to a rigid closed off way of thinking about yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:28:39]: Some reminders, focus on the facts and not the fears because fears are what be that's the foundation of anxiety. Fears. Affirm yourself. Every time you experience a negative thought, I want you to affirm yourself. And affirmation is just a positive message that you give to yourself about you. I want you to practice how to affirm yourself so that you're not depending on other people to do it. It's such a strength when you have the ability to affirm yourself. Understand that failure can teach you a lot.

Juanita Tookes [00:29:06]: Failure is one of the best professors you will ever have. And I know none of us want to experience failure. But one thing I will say is that there you cannot succeed without failing. It's a part of the process. It's a part of the learning process. It's a part of the building process. It's a part of the identity formation process. Once you accept that failure is going to be one of your greatest teachers.

Juanita Tookes [00:29:29]: When you do fail at something, you will not internalize it as is as if it is a part of you or defines who you are. I am a failure. You are not a failure. You may have failed at something that's going to build you up and set you up for success the next time, But you as a person are not a failure. Self love, self care, self celebration, self work, self, self, self. It starts with you. It all comes from you. So making sure that you are loving yourself, taking care of yourself, celebrating yourself, empathizing with yourself, all of the things that you give outwardly, make sure that you are doing that for yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:06]: 1st, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone. There's a reason why that, that word is capitalized. You are not the only one making mistakes. Everyone makes them. But whenever we do make a mistake, it seems as though we are the only ones anyone else would have known better. I'm the only one who probably did this. How can I do something so stupid or so silly? Trust me.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:28]: Everyone makes mistakes every single day. Mistakes are inevitable. You are going to be making mistakes for the rest of your life. I'm not saying this to be discouraging. I'm saying it because it's a fact of life. And if you think about, like I just said a little earlier, failure can teach you a lot. Mistakes can teach you a lot. They are a part of how we learn.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:48]: They're a part of how we learn. Be kind to your mind. Grad school is an, is a higher level of learning. It is gonna challenge you cognitively and intellectually, but don't crush, push your mind to the limit. Don't overwork it. Don't burn it out. If it needs a break, give it a break. If you need to take a nap, take a nap.

Juanita Tookes [00:31:06]: If you need to eat, eat. If you need to kind of push the work aside, go take a walk and come back to it. Maybe the next day, then do that. But please do not overwork your mind. You and your mind are a team in order to be successful. You have to work with it and it has to work with you. But if you are forcing your brain to stay up at all hours of the night, if you are not nourishing your body, if you're not affirming yourself with positive messages that circulate around your mind, you are putting your mind in a state of just you're being cruel. If you think about it, if you're being what's the opposite of kind, full, don't be cruel to your mind.

Juanita Tookes [00:31:41]: You are all, you are both a team. And if you are kind to your mind, you can solidify your success because you know what your limits are. Remember, don't be a super person. Everybody has limits, and it's very important for you to be aware of those limits. So you're not pushing yourself past those limits. So I wanted to include this slide. This is a little bit different, than the talk I gave before. Even though I did talk about growth mindset, I wanted to include a visualization here so you can see what a growth versus a fixed mindset looks like.

Juanita Tookes [00:32:13]: So we when we talk about a fixed mindset, you're avoiding challenges because you don't think you could do it. You don't even wanna be bothered with the rejection or the failure of it all. So you just avoid it. You refuse to receive feedback. Now feedback is going to be a part of your professional and personal life. You're gonna be getting feedback just about everything that you do. And if you are so afraid to receive feedback, feedback is a very important skill as a student because you're always gonna be getting feedback in something. And if you are thinking that the feedback that you get is defining who you are, then you're not gonna be able to learn anything out of the experience that's supposed to teach and build you.

Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]: Focus on proving yourself, we kinda talked about that earlier. Feeling threatened by other successes, which goes into comparison. Can't accept failures or mistakes because you don't have grace or compassion for yourself like we what we talked about. Shying away from unfamiliar things and belief that that talent is static, right? These are all things that go with a fixed mindset. But when you have a growth mindset, it's the exact opposite. You're looking at things differently. You're looking at how things can build you and expand and enhance your life experience. So you're viewing challenges and opportunities as something exciting.

Juanita Tookes [00:33:23]: You're embracing feedback. You're focusing on the process, not the results. You're inspired by others. Instead of being intimidated by them, You're learning how to grow from your failures because you know it's one of your greatest teachers. You're stepping out of your comfort zone, and you're believing that talent is ever improving. So by incorporating these practices into your daily life, you can foster a growth mindset and enhance your ability to learn and adapt. I mentioned reflection earlier. Reflection is also a very important skill that can help counter the impact and effects of imposter syndrome.

Juanita Tookes [00:33:56]: So when you have some minutes, maybe at the end of your day, or if you're getting your day started a little early, you wanna practice some reflection so that you can check-in with yourself and you are aware of how you're feeling and what you're thinking in certain moments. So try answering questions to see what you can learn about yourself and your mindset so that you can improve the way that you think. So what are my accomplishments? What accomplishments am I not owning and why? Because you have a lot of people who are doing some great stuff, but they don't wanna recognize it for whatever reason. Which beliefs about success are holding me back? What abilities and or strengths am I overlooking? Are these thoughts based on facts or fears? What would I say to a friend in this situation? How would I say this to myself? When have I proved my inner critic wrong in the past? And when we talk about inner critic, we're talking about that voice that you hear in your mind that is shaking their finger at you, telling you, you should have did this better. Why did you do this? This was silly. I don't know why you did that. That's the inner critic. And an an inner critic, I mean, it could it could serve to have some helpful information, but a lot of times, the inner critic, when we're talking about imposter syndrome, has gone way past, way past us giving us some helpful feedback or increasing our awareness about something.

Juanita Tookes [00:35:07]: This is making us feel bad about something that we did, making us think that it should have been perfect or we should have been an expert. Remember those 5 types of impostors? Making us feel like we should have been a persona of one of those types of impostors. Instead of just saying, hey. I did my best, and I'm gonna do better next time. So when have I proved my inner critic wrong? When have you went against that voice and said, look, I know you're telling me that I should have did this, but I did the best I could, and I'm proud of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:34]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a daunting yet rewarding journey that requires strategic planning, relentless perseverance, and a bit of serendipity. This episode of the Victor's in Grad School podcast brought forth an enlightening conversation with Dr. Dick Sadler, a professor at Michigan State University, who shared his compelling academic journey, strategies for overcoming imposter syndrome, and advice for prospective graduate students. Here are the key takeaways from the conversation that can serve as a guiding light on your graduate school path.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Dr. Dick Sadler's journey to academia began somewhat serendipitously during his undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan - Flint. He was encouraged by his mentor, Dr. Ed Chow, to consider graduate school. Dr. Sadler's initial motivation was partly driven by logistical factors, such as securing health insurance and guaranteed funding, which were available through a program at the University of Western Ontario. This decision highlights the importance of considering all aspects — financial, personal, and academic — when deciding to pursue graduate education.

From Environmental Science to Urban Geography

Dr. Sadler's transition from studying environmental science to urban geography represents a fascinating pivot driven by his long-standing curiosity about urban landscapes. He reminisced about his childhood questions regarding the urban structure of his neighborhood, which laid the groundwork for his interest in urban geography. The skills he acquired through GIS and computer mapping during his undergrad allowed him to delve into urban processes, demonstrating the value of transferable skills and interdisciplinary approaches in academia.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Imposter syndrome is a common challenge faced by many graduate students, including Dr. Sadler. He shared that while imposter syndrome was prevalent at various stages of his academic career, it didn't hinder his progress. His strategy was to remain focused, validate his progress through positive feedback and achievements, and immerse himself in the academic environment. Time and consistent effort became his allies in overcoming these doubts.

The Value of Graduate Degrees in Professional Development

Dr. Sadler discussed the significant role that his PhD played in shaping his career. He emphasized that his PhD provided him with the rigor needed for academic research, while his subsequent Master's in Public Health from Johns Hopkins helped him understand the intricacies of public health. The combination of these degrees equipped him with a diverse set of skills, making him highly adaptable and capable in various research settings. His journey underscores the importance of continuous learning and skill acquisition.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Dr. Sadler's foremost advice for prospective graduate students is to secure a program that offers ample funding. Financial stability allows students to focus fully on their studies and research. He also stressed the importance of choosing a field of study that genuinely interests you. Graduate school requires a high level of engagement and creativity, which is easier to maintain when driven by passion. Finally, understanding that graduate school shifts from knowledge consumption to knowledge production can help students align their expectations and efforts accordingly.

Conclusion

Dr. Dick Sadler's insights provide valuable guidance for those considering or already navigating the path of graduate education. Whether it's overcoming imposter syndrome, leveraging your skills in new fields, or ensuring financial stability, his experiences offer a blueprint for success. As you embark on your graduate school journey, remember that perseverance, adaptability, and a genuine passion for your field are your greatest tools.

For more details and to listen to the full conversation, tune into the latest episode of the Victor's in Grad School podcast.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we're talking about this journey that you've decided to go on. Now you might be at the very beginning where you haven't even applied anywhere yet, but you're just starting to think about it for yourself. You might have already applied. Maybe you got accepted already. Or maybe you're already in graduate school, and you're just trying to figure things out along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: Or maybe you're even seeing that light at the end of the tunnel and trying to figure out what's next. No matter where you are, this podcast is here to help you to find success in that journey that you're on. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests that have had different experiences that can share those experiences with you and help you to learn from the things that went well, the things that maybe didn't go well, and also allow for you to be able to grab some tools for your own toolbox to help you along the way. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Dick Sandler is with us, and Dick is a professor at Michigan State University. And he's been there for quite a few years, but I'm really excited to be able to kind of turn the clock back in time, learn a little bit more about his own experience that led him to being a professor at Michigan State, and to introduce him to you. Dick, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:01:40]: Yeah. For sure. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, my pleasure. I love being able to chat with you today and be able to learn a little bit more. And as I said, I wanna start by turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, where you received a degree in environmental science and planning in GIS. And at some point during that period of time, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were gonna continue your education and go on, and you made a choice to go on to get a PhD in urban geography. Talk to me about this journey for yourself and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:02:24]: Yeah. I had kind of thought about it, but not super seriously. And honestly, it wasn't until, like, end of my junior year, start of my senior year, I was doing some independent study with who had become my de facto mentor in the ge functionally the geography department. His name was Ed Chow. He's now at Texas State, but he had been a professor there just for a couple of years. And I took all of my GIS or computer mapping classes from him. So I'd basically, my whole minor, I had taken classes with with doctor Chow. And I guess just, like, seeing the caliber of my work and the fact that we were working together, he suggested that I present some of my work at a regional research conference, like, for our professional society.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:03:04]: I think that one was just down in East Lansing, actually. So it's funny. My first professional talk was at Michigan State. And then after that, he was just saying, you know, you should just throw in a couple applications to grad school. It's not gonna hurt, look around a little bit. And one thing I kind of wanted to do for a few years before was live in Canada. So I had this vague idea, oh, maybe I'll live in Canada someday. And then an also vague idea, maybe I'll go to grad school.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:03:30]: Over Thanksgiving, actually, because my family wasn't doing much that year, I drove out to a few campuses in Southwestern Ontario, basically headed toward Toronto, and had a really good chat with one supervisor that the person who had eventually become my grad supervisor. And so I looked him up before and gotten a bit of an idea of the work he did, went there, met with him and his students, had lunch, and just got a really good sense from that campus that it was a good fit. So it's kind of dumb luck because I the other visits, actually, the rest of that trip was kind of a train wreck. Had car problems and then it snowed and then just I was uninspired to keep going. But yeah. So I applied to grad school because my undergrad supervisor had suggested it. Just happened to get in and get a scholarship because the program at the University of Western Ontario where I went to grad school was guaranteed funding for any of the grad students that were accepted. And so for me, that was the main reason for doing that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:04:26]: This was 2007 or 2008. And so this was before the ACA. And so, as a 22-year-old, like, becoming 22 that year, I was going to be off of my parents' health insurance and kind of off on my own. And I had some anxieties about that and moving into that next phase of adulthood. And going to Canada meant guaranteed health insurance and dental insurance because the grad students were in union. And I had a guaranteed teaching assistantship and a scholarship for my tuition. So it was honestly stepping into a job, if not a full time job. And, you know, if a more academic one, it was still something I always took really seriously and was able to take seriously because I was able to get an offer that was really it allowed me to not have to worry about those other kinds of financial questions, especially as a a young person, like, right out of undergrad, no kids, no pets, very mobile, that kind of thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:19]: So talk to me a little bit about you went into a PhD program in urban geography, and your undergraduate work was in geography as well. But talk to me about couple things. One, why a PhD? You could have probably done a master's as well and and done that before a PhD if you had wanted to. And then 2, why urban geography?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:05:40]: Yeah. So and it's funny because the initial offering I had was to do a master's degree, and the program I started in was just starting to fuss with this idea of fast tracking master's students right into their PhD. And in some disciplines, you do do that or you have the option to. So after my 1st year of my masters, instead of progressing to writing a thesis, I wrote a small proposal and proposed being let into the PhD program, which guaranteed 4 more years of funding instead of just the one more year. So it was kind of a way to, like, kick the can down the road. Instead of 2 years of funding, I had 5 years total. And then instead of having to write a master's thesis in my 2nd year, I didn't have to write my dissertation until later in the PhD. So I was pushing some of that down the line.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:06:25]: But again, I wound up in the same position where my grad supervisor and I was co supervised actually. So my grad supervisors agreed that doing well and I had a good topic and seemed like I had an aptitude to progressing into that. And it was something that by that point, I had started taking more seriously the idea of staying in academia and doing research. And it was of interest. I was never a student who super liked writing papers, for example. I liked the math and science parts of my work more. But as I got into a topic that was really of interest to me, I. E.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:06:58]: Urban geography, I found I didn't mind reading and writing so much. You know, and again, my supervisors were saying, like, yeah, you're a good writer. And I had started I think by then I'd published a paper from my undergrad. So I kind of entered that world of academic publishing. And the urban geography part was, I think, honestly coming home a bit more. So my undergrad was like environmental science. And so it's like resource conservation and forest management and like natural geography stuff. But as a little kid, I was always curious about, you know, so I went to Atherton High School, which is in Burton, just outside of Flint here.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:07:32]: And my mom had gone to Flint Northern. My dad had gone to Atherton. And as a little kid, I was wondering, asking questions like, why are there no sidewalks? Why isn't there a 711 in our neighborhood? Why don't we have a video store? Like, just these little kind of urban ideas that you'd see on a cartoon or a TV show that were not the way that Burton functioned, you know, being a suburb of a city like Flint. And then also learning about how Flint used to look in the sixties when my mom was growing up and wanting to experience more of that and and really liking the what the functional city looks like and functions like and being able to walk and bike and all of these interrelated processes. And so when I got to grad school and and specifically I found supervisors who did that kind of research that allowed me to take the skills I had learned in particular with the GIS, the mapping stuff, and shift the topic from that natural side back over to the urban side. So the research I do is really broad and and especially having come back to Flint for my faculty position nearly 10 years ago, I've been able to dig into all kinds of different processes in Flint's urban system from vacant land greening to the water system to flight and demolitions and crime and really anything you could imagine that varies over space or that's a part of an urban system in Flint I've I've studied.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: So after you got that PhD, PhD, you finished up your PhD, you, about 5 years later, made a decision to go back to school. And this time, you got a master's degree in public health from Johns Hopkins. So every person has a different path and different choices. So talk to me about that choice and why you decided that you wanted to go back to school after getting that terminal degree to be able to study something very different in regard to that next phase of your education?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:09:27]: That was a funny one. So I got my PhD in 2013. I got my faculty job in 2015 after a short postdoc. And after about a year here, we hired another faculty member named Deborah Furr Holden. She had come from Johns Hopkins. And after her being here for a couple of years, she told me that they were starting a program. She had colleagues back there and they were starting a program through the Bloomberg School of Public Health that would guarantee funding for master's students in particular from community based settings. So more of the applicants were from places like health departments or or, substance use program, treatment programs, things like that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:10:09]: But she said, Oh, just throw your hat in. It's a new program. And if you get in, then you got to go into your Miles per hour. And I did. So then it's like, okay, I guess I'm doing another degree. And, and yeah, I didn't have a master's degree. And I had been working in a division of public health for 3 years at that point. And at times felt a little bit, it'd be like moving to France or something.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:10:32]: And like, you're kind of learning French, but people can still tell that you're American. And I thought, okay, this is like an immersion program that'll help me really understand the culture and the language of public health. And, yeah, so the program was partly in person. I got to go to Baltimore for a couple of weeks at a time and take intensive courses. And then a lot of it was online and I actually finished it the 1st couple of months of COVID were like my last term. And so the program was already online anyways and and wrap that up and kinda just like checking another box. But again, it was feeling more comfortable in the public health world and also making connections. I have some colleagues at Johns Hopkins now.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:11:09]: One of whom in particular, we do a lot of work together. So it was a nice way to kind of expand my research reach and feel like I have a little bit more skills in my tool belt.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:18]: So you've had these different experiences. And in each of those experiences, going to get your PhD, your master's degree, there are different transitions that you have to go through. So you went through you went through a transition between going from undergrad into your PhD and then from your PhD to the workforce, from workforce back into an a master's program. As you think about the transitions that you have had in your own educational experiences, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success in each of those? And what did you do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:11:56]: So I think the transition from undergrad to PhD was the like, I don't wanna discount the anxieties of my former self. Like, I wanna say that that might have been the easiest. But honestly, I mean, on the flip side, I think adding the master's program to my existing work plate in retrospect, maybe that's the easiest because I was already an academic. I already had a PhD. I was going back for a master's in a related discipline to, you know, the kind of work I was doing. But yeah. So starting my PhD, I I never stopped going to school. Right? So it's like high school, undergrad, master's program slash into my PhD.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:12:34]: And so I still had the same study habits. And in some ways, I was well, in most ways, I was way more scared. I was, like, terrified that I was gonna bomb out of grad school. It was a path that my immediate family hadn't taken. And so there wasn't this example or people that I was close to that I could follow in the footsteps of. And so I spent a lot of I took a lot of effort and care to be a really good student through my PhD program because I wanted to set myself up for success. So in some ways, and I don't begrudge it at all, but I wasn't quite as loose and and free in my earlier twenties. And in on the flip side, it was like just the last few years of my life, I've been I feel like I've been able to loosen up and relax and enjoy vacation and stuff like that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:13:20]: But also because I punched through and I took extra special care, I was able to get to where I am now. And so I feel like the transition from my PhD into the workforce wasn't too bad. I mean, again, it was another one of those big hurdles where I was like, okay, for sure, they're gonna figure me out now. I had imposter syndrome at each stage of my, honestly, like start of high school, start of college, start of grad school, start of faculty career. I've always had that kind of perspective where I'm not doing good enough. And it's funny because I've always ultimately excelled in each of those phases of my life. But I think it's good to go into something a little bit scared because then you make sure that you're giving it sufficient effort. And and I should add, it's not like I wasn't having fun in my early twenties.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:14:04]: I I've played in bands my most of my adult life and certainly have had friends and so forth. It's just I was balancing that much more precariously with this anxiety. It's like at a show or on vacation and I'm just thinking about my grad school work. And it's just dragging me down. Whereas now I can compartmentalize it a little bit better. I'm used to it. I write papers and I read papers and I teach guest classes and stuff like that. And, and it's much more routine, and I'm not so hyper fixated on this prospect that I'm going to fail all the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:37]: When you think about imposter syndrome, and many graduate students face that at the beginning or throughout their experiences, What did you have to do to push through that? And were there any strategies that you put into place that have helped you in with that as you've gone through not only your graduate degrees but into your career?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:14:59]: I think in each case, it was time that helped the most. It was being able to look back and see either my report cards or my publishing history or whatever again at each stage of my career and see evidence that I'm doing okay and not just doing okay but doing well. And also not just doing well in my first evaluation, but all of the subsequent ones because you can be a freshman and have a good year and then you kinda just slough off and you don't keep trying. And so and that's why for me, I usually would take a couple of years. It was like junior year of high school, junior year of undergrad, 3rd year of grad school. And I don't know why it's like that for me. It's just, again, this, like, big fear that I'm not going to achieve enough. So in terms of the strategies that may have helped though, I really don't know that I have had active strategies.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:15:51]: I think it's literally just being able to have evidence of people saying, no. You're doing a good job. And me being able to look back and see that I haven't flunked out yet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:02]: You've completed your degrees. You have a number of degrees under your belt. As you look back at the different degrees that you have received, your undergrad, your PhD, your masters, and you think about what you're doing today. How do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:16:22]: Yeah. My PhD in particular, this set me up really well. I mean, well, yeah. I mean, I think each of them had some roles, of course. I mean, but, I'll just start with my undergrad degree too, because being able to get research experience and I did wanna make sure to share this being at U of M Flint and being at a smaller campus and having the opportunity to do research with one of my professors is something I don't think I would have necessarily had the chance to do at a huge university, like at U of M Ann Arbor or at MSU's campus. And that really allowed me to get my feet wet and understand like, okay, this is what research looks like functionally, you know, more than just writing a class paper and and seeing something through not just through the end of the semester, but until it got published. And and so once I got to grad school and was in my PhD program, the expectations there of publishing a couple of papers before defense and not everybody did that, but the the the hope at least that you were already actively publishing before you defend it. And the just the culture in my department, it was it was a very collegial, very fun department.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:17:33]: We had a softball team and a soccer team and we went to the bars and so forth. But it was serious and people came into the office and it felt like a job. And I had a lot of people that I could look up to in different fields even. But, you know, people who are Canada research chairs in their own sub disciplines, who were my professors and had worked with big names in the field at University of Toronto and McGill and at other American universities. And so really seeing that and what it actually took to be productive at that level. I think once I got back here to Flint and started working for MSU, I at least knew what the game was. It was still harder for me at the time. I was doing it more slowly and I had to be more intentional about like, okay, if I wanna write a paper, I've gotta get the data and then I've gotta spend a lot of time on the literature review.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:18:25]: And and I had to kinda take it step by step. And now stuff just flies at me so fast that it's like, I've got like 25 papers with 17 different research teams and and I don't have the amount of time to dedicate to any one step. But the fact that I have I had really good practice at that in grad school, in particular, my PhD, and then have been able to rehearse that over and over and over as I published with all these different teams and in different roles, too, I think has has made me much more comfortable with the kind of work that I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:58]: Now, as you look back at your own graduate education and maybe even you're thinking about some of the graduate students that you work with now, as you think about other students that are coming in the future, people that are thinking about graduate school and thinking about attending a graduate school, a graduate program sometime in the future. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:19:24]: One of the things that for me lessened my mental load and my life load was finding a program that had funding. And so I know it's gonna vary a lot for different people. Some people may have more of a, like, a work expectation. They already have a job. And it's like, hey, if you get your master's degree, you can increase your salary. And and so that's a very different kind of grad school route than the one I took because I was treating grad school like my first job out of college. And so I feel like I can speak to that a little bit more because those kind of paths to me feel different. And so I guess in particular for people that were going into a research path or maybe an academic path, whether you're working for a university or or you wanna work for something like a research center or a consulting firm that does evaluation or whatever.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:20:12]: I think that had I not had my full attention on grad school, it would have been really hard to dig into the processes of research design, and academic writing as much as I did, because I really needed exclusive focus on it. It was not just a side piece for me. I had teaching assistantships and then I was teaching courses later in grad school, but it was very much secondary to the process of becoming a researcher. And so, yeah, so that would would definitely contrast a lot with if you somebody who's doing an MBA or an Miles per hour or some kind of professional degree where the goal is maybe still like a little bit more coursework and skill building. And certainly like with my Miles per hour, it was a lot of coursework and expanding the fields that I was familiar with. Again, I think that it's the general lesson if I want if I was gonna try to generalize would be that well, and this is something that a lot of my professors would say over and over all throughout grad school is that undergrad is about consuming knowledge and your grad program is about producing knowledge. So whatever field it is you're in, it's about trying to become more active in that process. And you're not just sitting in the classroom and being fed information, but you're thinking more critically.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:21:29]: Maybe you're using new theoretical constructs or you're thinking methodologically about how do we do something better with the tools that we have. And so it requires a little bit of creativity, which again requires time to like sit and chew on these ideas. And it's not just like I'm gonna do this exercise real quick and submit it and then I'm done. You really want to enjoy what you're studying because if you don't, then you're just gonna be bored out of your mind spending the amount of time it takes to really become more of an expert in that field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]: Well, Dick, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on research, on the pathways that may exist in in so much more. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:22:16]: Thank you very much, and good luck to everybody out there listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating the demanding world of graduate school can be a monumental task, especially when balancing multiple roles. In the latest episode of the University of Michigan Flint's Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis speaks with Reilly Chabie from Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the University of Michigan - Flint about finding balance and setting boundaries.

Utilizing Transition Times Effectively

A key insight from Reilly is the importance of utilizing transition times to reset. She suggests using short breaks between classes for rest or leisure activities instead of academic tasks. This practice can help students manage stress and stay emotionally balanced. Reilly emphasizes that these breaks can be instrumental in maintaining a sense of calm and preparing oneself mentally for the next task.

Flexibility with Priorities

Reilly discusses the importance of being adaptable when it comes to priorities. She highlights the necessity of shifting priorities daily based on circumstances. Graduate students often face changing demands, and flexibility is crucial for managing these effectively.

Seeking Support and Accountability

The episode also explores the significance of seeking support from peers, mentors, or counselors. Reilly advises working with others to relieve stress and gain accountability. This approach not only helps in managing roles but also creates a collaborative environment, making the journey through graduate school less isolating.

Mastering Time Management and Organization

Reilly recommends experimenting with various planning tools like planners, lists, and apps to find what best suits an individual's organizational needs. Time management is essential for balancing multiple roles, and the right tools can provide structure and clarity.

The Importance of Setting Boundaries

Setting boundaries is a recurring theme in the discussion. Reilly outlines seven types of boundaries: physical, emotional, time, and internal boundaries being a few. Understanding and setting these boundaries based on personal limits and priorities can prevent overwhelming situations and enhance personal balance.

Three-Step Boundary Setting Process

1. Define the Boundary:

   Identify what you are trying to reduce, add, or accomplish.

2. Communicate the Boundary:

   Clearly convey the boundary to relevant parties.

3. Set Consequences:

   Determine your response if the boundary is not respected.

Recognizing and Addressing Burnout

Burnout is a common issue among graduate students. Reilly outlines signs of burnout, including physical symptoms like high blood pressure and headaches and mental indicators like difficulty concentrating and low mood. Addressing burnout early is critical to maintaining balance and well-being.

Embracing Emotional Wellness

Reilly emphasizes that emotional reactions should be acknowledged as part of building balance. Allowing oneself to feel emotions promotes self-compassion, which is crucial for graduate students facing high demands. Grounding techniques, such as the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method, can help reconnect with the present moment and reduce overwhelm.

Organizational Tips for Balance

Practical organizational strategies are vital for balancing roles and responsibilities. Reilly advises creating schedules that include self-care and relaxation time, blocking out periods for social connections, and engaging in new activities. These strategies can aid in achieving a harmonious balance.

A Comprehensive Approach to Balance

Reilly Chabie's insights offer a comprehensive approach to achieving balance in graduate school. From utilizing transition times and seeking support to mastering time management and setting boundaries, her advice provides invaluable tools for students. Practicing self-compassion and recognizing personal limits are key to thriving in this demanding environment.

For more resources, students are encouraged to explore campus services like CAPS, Recreational Services, and the Student Success Center.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. My name is Dr. Christopher Lewis. I'm the director of graduate programs. I really appreciate you being here today and for taking this next step in your own journey here at in graduate school to prepare yourself for what comes ahead and what you're dealing with right now. And and today, we've got a great guest. Reilly Chabie is with us today, and Riley is, in our CAPS office. And I I know she'll be introducing herself and what CAPS does, but, but today, I asked her to come in and to talk about finding support in setting boundaries, finding that balance for yourself.

Reilly Chabie [00:00:51]: It's one of the topics that I always hear graduate students challenged by, whether they just started or whether they're in the middle of their program. So it's important to be able to go through and understand and have some resources at your fingertips to help you in this process, and Riley's here to do just that. I'm gonna turn it over to Riley for her to be able to talk to you and share all of her wisdom, and really excited to have you all here today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:16]: Thank you so much, doctor Lewis. I really appreciate it. Welcome, everybody. I'm grateful that you're interested in learning about this topic a little bit more, and hopefully some of the information we talk about today will support you in your journey as a grad student. But honestly, a lot of these skills are going to be helpful for all of life. There's not necessarily a specific timeframe or experience where this applies the most, but it's helpful to get these skills now so that they translate and continue to move with you moving forward. So like I said, hopefully you learn a little bit today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:51]: As Dr. Lewis mentioned, we're going to be talking a little bit about finding balance between the things that you're kind of expected to be doing as a graduate student, but also just knowing that you have personal endeavors and things going on in your life that also require quite a bit of your attention. So we'll kind of start off with just some what to expect experiences here, and then we'll kind of navigate into the specifics. But first and foremost, we're going to talk about what are called the 8 dimensions of wellness. And I think this is pretty crucial in any sort of balance forming as these areas are what we ultimately are making choices on every single day. We're determining whether or not we're prioritizing these certain dimensions in the hopes that we're creating a good enough balance where we feel kind of equal and stable and ready to take on the day. So we'll be talking about how those fit into this process today. We'll talk more specifically about what balance is and even more importantly, how we might be able to identify feelings of being unbalanced or the lack of balance. We'll also kind of think about some tips and tricks on how to navigate that, as well as maintaining balance once we've found what feels comfortable.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:02]: We'll talk a little bit more in-depth about boundaries. What do those look like? How do you set them? Maybe some examples of what those can look like. Then, of course, we'll round out with just some last thoughts, as well as some resources on campus that you'll be able to utilize. All right. So the 8 dimensions of wellness. I'm not sure who has heard about the dimensions of wellness, but something that student health and wellness here on campus really tries to focus on are these 8 dimensions. There's a variety and I'm sure you've heard of some of them, like maybe emotional wellness or social wellness, maybe physical wellness. All of these dimensions ultimately help us feel connected to the whole person.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:45]: So each of these slices of this wheel relate to us as a whole person. And, arguably, when one of them isn't working out very well, when we're maybe struggling in that area or we're not giving enough focus to that area, we tend to feel like that area is faltering and thus, a lot of our stress and difficulties start to increase. So I think it's really crucial that if we're thinking about balance, it makes sense to kinda give some tangible names to how like, what what balance even looks like and what areas we're trying to focus on. These 8 dimensions also kind of help us feel fulfilled and, like, we're achieving the potential that we want to be able to set for ourselves. So even just adding this into our regular vocabulary can be very supportive in not only identifying what balance looks like, but also just kind of feeling connected to oneself. And I also think it's kind of helpful to to think about this in the context of if we know these 8 dimensions, we are then able to identify what areas need work or attention. So for example, if I'm not doing so well in terms of my social experiences, That's probably a good indicator that maybe working on building ways to support my social wellness would be crucial in creating some balance. Maybe feeling more engaged on campus or connecting better or more deeply with my friends and family, etcetera.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:15]: So I might notice that one of these areas or multiple at one time are impacted. Therefore, I have at least some area to start, which honestly can be the most difficult part about finding balances, identifying even where to start. We'll talk a little bit more about how you can identify problem areas. But part of what we will navigate is how our values impact our dimensions of wellness. Once we've identified that connective tissue there, that helps us find gaps in relation to those values and how we can adjust accordingly in order to support our areas of wellness. I like to use this as our background or you could say the theme of what to consider as we go through the rest of the presentation. That wellness and especially these dimensions are going to be a core piece of identifying support, finding that balance, and ultimately feeling a little more whole as a person. Alright.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:22]: Balance. Honestly, balance can seem a little bit like a buzzword in some respects. Right? That, you know, we've we hear in a lot of variety and in a lot of different contexts that were meant to hold some sort of balance between maybe social and personal life as well as work life as well as school life. And that can get really complicated really fast. So some things that maybe can be helpful in considering what balance is and how we identify how it plays out is by looking at the types of responsibilities and roles we hold in everyday life. When I'm talking about roles, I'm specifically talking about the things that we're typically doing. For example, some of the roles you might hold include being a student, being a friend, being a significant other. You could consider being an employee or maybe even more specifically identifying what your job title is.

Reilly Chabie [00:07:24]: That is still considered a role. So we hold a wide variety of roles at any given point. And, therefore, we're gonna notice some balance challenges popping up because of all of those responsibilities that we're trying to juggle at any given point. And because we have all of those roles and responsibilities, there's this expectation we place on ourselves to try to figure everything out all the time. And when we're struggling to build that balance or kind of create that feeling of, Oh, I'm actually paying attention to all of these areas in my life, it really starts to add on this feeling of stress and anxiety. And honestly, sometimes just this feeling of, I'm not even sure what I'm trying to do here when we're not able to balance all of these different roles and responsibilities. So, something we kind of want to consider is 1, what are those roles? You know, being able to to put labels to those roles, but even more so, can we identify the amount of energy and focus that we need or want to devote to those roles? Right? So, for example, it will be likely that as a graduate student, you're going to put a lot of energy and focus into your role as a student. So that includes making sure you're writing your papers, getting your assignments done, maybe engaging in things on campus related related to your degree or just to build social connection.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:53]: But there's a lot that plays into that. So if we're identifying that as a higher priority or kind of a higher value for us, we're probably going to devote a lot of time and energy to it. But depending on if we're creating balance, if we're adding too much energy and too much, you know, time to one area, it can kind of get a little exhausting and the scales might tip a little bit. And we feel like we're doing too much of one thing at one time. So it's important to kind of think about, all right, you know, how much energy do I want to devote to this area? How am I going to prioritize this in my day to day life? And if we're noticing there's some discrepancies in terms of, oh, I'm, you know, I'm putting a lot of energy and effort in, you know, this one area or this one role, but it's really not that important to me or it's taking a lot away from other priorities that I have. That's a great indicator that our balance is not as even as we would like it to be. Thus, giving us an end to identify a space to work on. We might also know outside of these roles that our balance is a little off kilter if there are too many demands.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:07]: Right. So if we're thinking about as a graduate student, there's a lot of assignments and a lot of things going on. It might be a bit stressful and feel like there's too much going on in order to devote the time we need to in all areas. So we might need to kind of navigate what comes first and how much energy we wanna put into that. So if there are too many demands that can impact our balance, our expectations in terms of perfection or what we're striving toward, that can definitely impact balance because one, nothing is perfect. We can't accomplish perfect because it doesn't exist. Therefore, if we're striving towards that, we're we're not going to feel that sense of stability in the same way that if we set a reasonable or manageable goal. So I think that can be a helpful thing to consider.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:57]: In a similar vein, if we set unrealistic expectations for ourselves, that one kind of sets us up for potential misbalance, but also that impacts just our areas of wellness. We don't accomplish what we set out, especially if we're starting with something unrealistic or unachievable in in that moment, giving those circumstances. We're kind of giving ourselves that opportunity to feel disappointed, to feel disconnected, to feel hurt by our process and thus slowly building up some of these negative experiences. So. Keeping in mind these roles, as well as the energy we're adding to that. And some of these additional concerns that struggle with balance. This might be a really great way for us to identify those areas, and then kind of work on the specifics on how to navigate that. So just kind of keeping those things in mind, both the dimensions of wellness and balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:52]: We're going to kind of think about how else can I notice when my balance is not as equal as I would like it to be? And a big consideration in terms of balance is burnout. So burnout comes up a lot in college, in grad school, and arguably in any form of system where we're working on a lot of different things or playing a lot of different roles. And burnout is somewhat synonymous with lack of balance. You know, typically, when we think of burnout, we're saying, wow, you know, I am spending so much time in this one area, and I feel really exhausted by it. That's a good indication that we're not only we're experiencing burnout, but that our balance is being affected. So some signs or some indicators as to if we're experiencing burnout can include a variety. But I like to point these two sections out because burnout isn't always physical and it isn't always mental or emotional, and it can be a common a combination of both. So if there were some things you might notice in terms of burnout would be high blood pressure, reoccurring headaches, sleep concerns, stomachaches, or when we have high stress, our immune system is affected.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:14]: Therefore, getting sick more frequently can happen. For the mental and emotional signs, we may notice concentration difficulties, we might notice low mood, maybe a loss of interest in our favorite things, feeling like we're falling behind in certain tasks or expectations, or maybe even feeling stuck. Feeling like we don't necessarily know how to engage or how to move forward. Obviously, this is not an exhaustive list. There are so many other variations to burn out and how we experience that. These are just some of the common ones. And, you know, for example, I know when I'm feeling rundown, I sometimes isolate. Maybe I disconnect from my peers, even though theoretically, I might feel very comforted by them.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:01]: I think mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically, I don't necessarily have that energy to devote to those social connections. Therefore, my balance is off kilter. So just kinda keeping in mind that while these are very common, they may not pertain to you, but these are some indicators as to when we're experiencing burnout. I also think too that if we're noticing that there's multiple of these experiences happening at once, that's a sign of more intense or more severe burnout. You know, naturally speaking, we might struggle with some of these concerns popping up here and there. But it's when those concerns start to become unmanageable or they're more frequent or more consistent, that's kind of when we need to be alerted to, oh, okay. Something's kind of going on here and maybe this is my time to tackle it. So, you know, we've talked a lot about ways we can identify when our balance is being impacted.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:59]: We've talked about some symptoms specifically that might come up when we're experiencing lack of balance. We've also considered a little bit of roles and how those play into it and the energy we devote to them. So shifting a little bit, how do we take all of that knowledge and how do we change things if we feel like we need to recreate that balance or build better balance? And I think it's helpful to kind of think about a few different things specifically. So, first of all, balance is something that takes time and requires a little bit of a step by step process. Of course, with the understanding of the different roles and expectations that we have, it's not gonna be an easy thing to change overnight to completely adjust how much energy we devote in a certain place or in a certain area. So keeping in mind right from the get go that it's that it's a step by step process and that you will take your time doing it can be helpful in the pressure that we might feel in trying to create that balance. But that balance is also a continuum. I'm even thinking like balance as in 1, I'm feeling totally, completely disconnected.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:16]: You know, I'm, I'm really struggling with that balance to 10 being I'm perfectly balanced to, to the best of my ability, given the roles, given the expectations that I have. And, of course, typically, we don't wanna be on the extreme ends because sometimes those can come with complications of their own. But if we can kind of shift into, you know, a medium level of balance or kind of be able to create that safe space for us, depending on where we're at, that's ideally the part of the continuum we want to be on. So kind of keeping that in mind that my balance is going to look a lot different than your balance and vice versa. And just in addition to that, you know what your balance can look like. And you're also very much going to know when you feel the lack of balance. So comparison between each person's balance is not going to be helpful in this situation, just because we don't know what types of roles other people are trying to handle. And not to mention that each person comes with their own set of rules and values and things that play into what that balance looks like.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:20]: So I think it's helpful to kind of put those things into context. And if we're able to achieve that balance that we're looking for, there's, of course, a lot of important benefits that come from that. We're going to notice our mood changing. Right? If we feel balanced, then we're gonna feel more likely connected to people in our life. The things that we're doing, we may find more enjoyment in certain things going on. So we really wanna rely on knowing that the work we put in to build balance will provide great outcomes and ultimately lead to feeling more productive, feeling more connected to those that we want to be connected to. And we're, we're going to feel just that overall sense of peace that we probably desire in the chaos that is graduate school. So I think that's kind of helpful to put into perspective.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:13]: One that it takes time and that we're kind of putting in the effort now, but those outcomes are going to support us in maintaining that balance as we continue to grow. Some other additional tips or things that we kind of want to consider when we're trying to develop balance. And I think some of these things often get missed in the the process here. So I I feel like it's very helpful to point out. So first and foremost, we want to think about practicing what is called self compassion and acceptance. And I wanna read a quick definition of what self compassion is. This definition was written by Kristin Neff. She plays a very large role in the movement of self compassion, and I think it puts it into good perspective.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:56]: So self compassion is the practice of being kind and understanding towards oneself when experiencing failure, inadequacy, or suffering. And I think that's particularly important in what we're talking about today. Because one, we're grad students. There are so many things going on all the time and so many things we're trying to keep organized and connected with that. We're not always going to line up perfectly. The outcome isn't always going to be the exact way we want it to be. We might experience failure. We might experience suffering in trying to create this balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:37]: And that's okay. It's not fun by any means, but it's okay that we can recognize, wow, you know, I'm human. This is a difficult practice, and we're allowed to feel that difficulty while also acknowledging, hey, you know, this is hard and I might not come out on the other end in the way that I expected, but I'm learning from it and I'm growing from it. So if we can practice that ability to accept the challenges that we face and the difficulties that come up and provide a little bit of that grace and compassion, it once again eases that pressure of trying to figure out how to navigate this, but also just gives us that sense of, okay, I'm a work in progress. I'm learning, I'm growing. And if I can say that at the end of the day, then I'm in a good spot regardless of the outcomes of certain things that are coming up. Similarly, when we're challenged with the process of building balance, we will likely have a lot of emotional reaction to that. We may struggle with difficult and uncomfortable emotions.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:43]: We might be angry. We might be sad. We might be upset. We might be a variety of adjectives there. And we want to acknowledge that these emotions are tough, and we need to give ourselves the permission to feel those things when they come up. Because that's part of the emotional wellness. Right? You know, going back to that first slide of the different dimensions of wellness. Emotional wellness plays a key role in this.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:09]: That if we are actively encouraging ourselves to feel what we need to feel and navigate based off of that, we're opening the door to self compassion. We're opening the door to creating better balance. We don't want to hold all of those things and feel like we just got to keep that all in until it starts to impact us more heavily and pulls away that energy and focus from the other areas of wellness or even the roles that we're trying to encourage ourselves to engage in. So I think that's a really important piece here that not only are we, you know, being compassionate towards ourselves, but we're allowing ourselves the space to feel what we need to feel. This process, because we may experience these difficult emotions, because we may be challenged with the ups and downs of building balance, I think it's helpful to also consider some tangible tips and techniques that might be helpful in processingsome of those emotions, but also the challenges that come up. So first and foremost, I want to note that a big part of balance comes the ability to engage in distress tolerance. So distress tolerance is enduring and accepting discomfort in plain terms. And we can acknowledge that life is difficult and it will definitely bring on discomfort, but we, as an individual, have the ability to navigate that discomfort. And part of that is by utilizing distress tolerance and a couple of skills that I like to mention that help with distress tolerance or kind of navigating that discomfort include one, which is a grounding technique. And the other one is specifically related to distress tolerance and it's called radical acceptance. So we'll start with the grounding techniques first. 1st and foremost grounding techniques are an excellent way to build up a sense of self and kind of reconnect ourselves to the present moment.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:05]: A lot of the time when we're feeling unbalanced, we may feel overwhelmed, we may feel disconnected from our own problem solving skills, and we wanna gain a little bit of clarity in trying to problem solve and trying to engage back into balance. So part of that requires a bit of grounding. And one of my favorite methods is the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method. It's in relation to our 5 senses, where we take, for example, 5 things we can see, 4 things we can touch, 3 things we can smell, 2 things we can hear, and one thing we can taste. So you can organize that however you would like to, but the goal of this method is to be able to bring ourselves back into the awareness of our present moment without feeling like we're overwhelmed by our thoughts. For example, if I'm, you know, looking at my computer screen right now, something I might do would say do in this process would be, I noticed in front of me my notes that I'm reading off of right now. And the text is white and bold. So in that process, I'm identifying some details and specifics about what I see, And that's bringing my awareness back to the present moment, which then allows for that space of clarity and that ability to problem solve, to kind of clearly think about what I'm doing and move forward in terms of that distressing experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:35]: So that's a tangible technique that I like to use. Definitely one of my favorites and there's a variety of grounding techniques, but I like to recommend that one. The other one that I want to mention is radical acceptance. So a little bit earlier, I was talking about self compassion and acceptance about how we need to acknowledge that there are difficulties in life and there are things that we're going to continue to struggle with. And radical acceptance is similar to that. And I'll read once again, a definition that can be helpful in explaining what radical acceptances. So radical acceptance involves fully acknowledging and embracing the present moment, including its difficulties and discomforts without trying to change or control it. So while we are trying to navigate that ability of building balance, we have to recognize that there absolutely will be things in play that we cannot control.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:29]: Certain things like, for example, we can't necessarily control a snow day. We can't necessarily control when a particular assignment is due. You know, there are certain things that are outside of that framework of what we're trying to challenge, and we have to build some acceptance around that so that we reduce the pressure and anxiety that comes from trying to figure out how to navigate that. But if we can focus on the things within our control, we're creating more balance and support of our own individual experience, as opposed to trying to put energy and effort into places that truly will not provide the outcome that we need. So I like to mention radical acceptance as part of this process because there will be challenges that we can't successfully navigate because we do not have that control. But what we can shift our focus to are the things that are within our control, including these types of tips and techniques, as well as the considerations we've already gone over. So it's helpful to kind of make that distinction and utilize that as a way to navigate. So few tips, a few ideas, of course, once again, not exhaustive, but these are definitely some main ones that can be helpful in your journey as we try to develop balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:26:47]: I also like to take into consideration that balance can come from maybe a more organizational or time management perspective that maybe, you know, we're all good with self compassion. We're good with acceptance. We're good with that distress tolerance piece, but we're, like, you know, I could really use some tips on on how to better manage the assignments that I have or the other responsibilities I'm holding in these different roles that I experienced. You know, how do I balance doing work tasks versus school tasks? Or how do I balance celebrating certain things with my friends versus spending a weekend working on homework? So here are some, I guess I like to consider them some tips or some techniques to kind of support that organizational piece of things in order to create balance. So first and foremost, I think it's helpful to consider creating a schedule that includes self care, you know, breaks and other relaxation techniques. So self care is really important when we're feeling overwhelmed, cause we're feeling disconnected from the things that make us feel happy or things that make us feel at peace or, or bring that comfort. So when we have a bunch of scheduled classes and homework assignments and work schedules, it also makes sense to schedule in those times for self care, especially if we like to follow schedules and routines. So I think it can be helpful to put that into perspective that any time we have a break, any time we have a moment, we can add in spaces of self care.

Reilly Chabie [00:28:17]: We can add in those relaxation techniques, use a grounding skill, whatever it might be. It doesn't have to be, you know, I'm taking an entire day just to focus on this area, but we can break it up into those very specific blocks. Additionally, we can block out time for things that we value. So if we know we're really busy, but we're feeling that lack of social connection or that lack of occupational wellness, things like that. We wanna block out times for those things we wanna build up in our values, whether that's family, friends, maybe it's a new activity you wanna try. We want to have that ability to say, I need this. Therefore, I'm creating the space for it. That is well within our control, and we want to be able to kind of take that and engage with that.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:08]: We also might consider using transition times between classes or other activities for a reset on our emotional or mental experience. So, you know, if we have 4 classes in a row and we have 15 minutes in between to navigate, that's not a whole lot of time to do some of these other techniques. But what it is time to do is, you know, a chance for you to build in a space of relaxation or build in okay. You know, I'm gonna use this 15 minutes even though I could study for the quiz that I have this next time around. I really need to eat, or I really need to take a breather and maybe close my eyes. Or maybe I want to read my book so that I can shift between the class I just had in this next class. So I have a bit of that break. Transition times can be an excellent space to put things into, especially if we're feeling overwhelmed with a busy schedule.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:05]: We also want to consider shifting and shuffling our priorities when needed. You know, sometimes priorities change. You know, what you might prioritize today might be different than tomorrow. Even though there's still important values, it's difficult to be very strict on where those priorities lie if other things start popping up. So being able to have a little bit of that adaptability and maybe a little bit of that radical acceptance that priorities might shift can be helpful. We definitely wanna work together with loved ones, peers, colleagues, or find additional support and accountability, which I will talk about later. These people are there for your support and not everything has to be done on your own. It can be kinda scary to ask for help or difficult to ask for help if we don't really know what we're asking for.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:56]: But just being able to talk about this difficulty with balance or the difficulties that we're facing in the roles that we play can be just a helpful reprieve from all of the bottled up experience we might have. And then lastly, some time management skills, identifying what works for you. For example, for me, I really love having a planner. If I can open up a booklet that has a month view in front of me and I can notice where all of my very big events such as my presentation today or, you know, certain things that I have to do around campus, I feel prepared and ready to go for that. Other people might say, nope. That's not it for me. That's okay. Maybe you prefer task lists.

Reilly Chabie [00:31:36]: Maybe you prefer sticky notes. Maybe you prefer your notes app on your phone. Maybe you like, physical calendars, or maybe you like Google Calendar. All of those things can be really helpful in just your organizational and time management, and that can create balance so that we're advocating the time we need and the energy we need for the things that we wanna be able to accomplish. So playing around with some of those things can be helpful too because one thing might work for 1, you know, one area and another thing might work for another area. So just being mindful and cognizant of that can be helpful. So we talked a lot about different tips, maybe more of those inner experiences such as self compassion and acceptance, as well as some of these time management and organizational skills. And I understand that not all of these are going to work perfectly, not all of them are going to apply to your experience, but a combination of a few of these can give us that chance to start creating balance and view these things differently, which then opens us up to feeling more supported to feeling that sense of equilibrium and and kind of feeling a little more, together than maybe if we're not navigating them in this way.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:49]: So I like to mention that as well. Okay. So part of this presentation also focuses on setting boundaries and how these can be incorporated in your process. So going back to one of the previous slides when we're talking about roles and responsibilities, we understand that there are plenty of tasks and expectations and things that we need to consider, but we also need to be able to know, hey. I may not be able to navigate this particular task or responsibility right now because another role or another area of my wellness needs more of my time and focus. So we need to be able to kind of come together internally and ask ourselves, what are the boundaries that I need to set in order to support myself in that process of finding balance and making sure I'm building in some preventative measures so that I don't get to a point of unmanageable discomfort or unmanageable lack of balance. And one of those ways is by setting boundaries. I know perhaps the concept of boundaries seems a little bit like a buzzword that it pops up in a variety of contexts, but these are very helpful in the sense that we're, we're setting boundaries because we want to build our own confidence and our abilities of knowing what our limits are, what we feel comfortable with.

Reilly Chabie [00:34:14]: And we're also able to kind of maintain our own identity in a given situation. We don't feel like we're shifting outside of what our roles and responsibilities are simply because we don't have a boundary in place. So setting boundaries very important. And I like to use this diagram as well that there's 7 types of boundaries. Obviously, these boundaries may come up frequently for you. They may not happen as often, and it also depends on the types of relationships and experiences you have. But I think it's helpful to know that there's a variety of them, and we can set however many or what types we need in any given situation. So some common ones might be some of those physical boundaries that focus on privacy and space, maybe emotional boundaries, like how emotionally available are you to other people.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:06]: We may also consider time boundaries. You know, how long do you want to spend on something? How long are you hoping other people spend with you? Those types of things. There's also what I think can be an interesting one are the internal boundaries. So how are we making sure we're checking in with ourselves? Are we staying regulated? Where is our energy going? And are we setting those internal boundaries for, excuse me, for ourself? So keeping some of these boundaries in mind, I'll talk a little bit more about how to set boundaries, some considerations, and that will bring us into the home stretch. I think personally that there are some very key things in setting boundaries. And part of that, as I alluded to, is about knowing your own limits. You know you best. And because of that, it's it's going to be important to determine what types of things you're willing or not willing to do in a given circumstance based off of where that threshold is.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:15]: And sometimes it can be a little complicated to figure out what those limits are and something that I like to consider or what I do when I'm trying to set a boundary and I'm trying to figure out what those limits look like are just based off of simple check ins. So I might ask questions individually to myself. Things like, am I getting enough rest? Maybe that's in relation to an internal boundary. Am I doing too much right now? That might be in relation to a an an emotional boundary that might be in relation to a time boundary, etcetera. Or is this nourishing me right now? This situation that I'm in, am I feeling nourished by it? Am I getting something important out of it? If not, that might be a place to set a boundary. So asking those questions kind of help you develop where your limits are at, And ultimately, then you can set boundaries in hopes of not reaching those limits or being able to avoid going over the limits. I also think it's important to consider that a big part of boundaries kind of feels like, oh, my boundary is about saying no. And yes, that is truthful.

Reilly Chabie [00:37:27]: If you know your limits, you might need to say no to things, depending on what your roles and responsibilities are in grad school or in other areas of your life. But a big missed part here is the ability and the feeling of, of being able to say yes. Sometimes it's just as crucial to say yes to help, to support, to looking for that extra added important skill, whatever it might be, just as much as it is saying no. That saying yes can also be a boundary that you may have set internally for yourself in order to support. Hey. I'm not really sure what I need to do here, but I'm definitely going to ask, and that's something I wanna hold myself to. And then lastly, we wanna consider priorities. You know, once again, these priorities are based off of your values.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:19]: So if you really value your connection to other people, you are going to notice that maybe setting boundaries in your social life is gonna be more frequent. If you really value your time, you know time is precious in a lot of ways when we have a lot going on. So maybe you're going to be setting more boundaries in relation to those those areas. So identifying what priorities you have and making sure that you're setting boundaries to supplement or support that experience of that priority, that's really crucial. So those three things are really helpful in determining when and where you want to set a boundary. And then that begs the question of how do I set it? I think this is probably the best way for me to lay it out is in this 3 step process, for lack of better term. In step 1, we're defining what that boundary is, and I will show you here shortly a few of the examples of what these boundaries might look like. But based off of our limits, based off of our priorities, based off of if we need to say yes or no to something, we're defining this is a clear place where I want to place this boundary.

Reilly Chabie [00:39:28]: This is what this boundary is going to look like. Step 2, once we've identified what that boundary is, you know, what we're trying to reduce or add or accomplish, we're gonna wanna communicate it. This, I think, sometimes can be really difficult because we're faced with communicating it to another person, to a department, to for example, we might be doing this in terms of our own teaching. Maybe we're doing it in a presentation or whatever it might be and communicating it can feel complicated because we don't necessarily know what the response of the other party is going to be. But as long as we're communicating it clearly, giving them that defined boundary, that's what we're aiming for. We want to be sure that what we're setting this boundary on is important to us, and that's why we're identifying those limits and priorities. And if we're communicating it clearly, that's what matters. And step 3 of setting boundaries includes the the consequences.

Reilly Chabie [00:40:30]: So setting those consequences. And I'm not talking about ultimatums. Right? I'm not saying, you know, here's my boundary. If you don't abide, here's what's going to happen. But more so, if my boundary is not respected, what am I going to do about that? How am I going to navigate that? And make that clear to the person or the 3rd party or whomever you're communicating this to, that that is what the consequence is going to look like. So once again, we're defining that boundary, identifying what area or what concern we're setting that boundary on. We're communicating it clearly noting the specifics of what you're communicating. And step 3 is that, that consequence.

Reilly Chabie [00:41:09]: What am I going to do if my boundary is not being respected? Am I going to remind them about it? Am I going to explain that I'm not going to stay in a situation like this if this continues to happen. You know, there there are varieties, and I'll show you here in just a second. But those those are kind of the steps that I would take to set boundaries. Here are a few examples. I want to preface before I read some of these that you know how you like to talk and the the word choices that you want to make. And what I have written here may not be the way you wanna communicate something. So feel free to find the wording that you want to use because it's not going to work for everybody the way that I have written here. But these are just some things that maybe we want to consider and kind of keep in the back of our head.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:01]: So a couple of examples include, I am going to be honest and vulnerable with myself. That sounds very similar to an internal boundary. Something, you know, maybe we know we're not engaging in that emotional vulnerability as much as we would like to. So we're going to start by being honest and vulnerable with myself. I am going to keep a gratitude journal. Sometimes we get stuck in the negativity and the difficulties of life and in an effort to create balance and be preventative, we are going to engage in a, in a gratitude journal. Those can be really helpful. Once again, that could be internal, but we can also add that into maybe social aspects or other types of boundaries.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:42]: I am not going to expect that others can read my mind. Other ones include as a friend, you shouldn't gossip about me, or I will not offer more help than I can give, or I am uncomfortable in this situation. So I'm going to leave or I'm going to walk away. Some of these boundaries include, you know, physical safety. Maybe it includes some hey, you know, I'm gonna communicate what I need, and that's a boundary that I'm willing to set for myself. So these are just a few examples, and there's a wide variety of ways we can tackle that. But all of these are based on that ability to see what priorities I have for myself, what my limits look like, and ways that I can be preventative in my balance building. So, ultimately, when we take all of those things into consideration, which is a lot, we want to remind ourselves that this is something that doesn't happen overnight.

Reilly Chabie [00:43:48]: I mentioned earlier that it is a step by step process. There's a lot that goes into it. But as long as we're taking small chunks each and every day to try to navigate our areas of wellness, to try to identify skills that can be helpful for us, to time management a little bit actually, it would be time managed. But to manage our time a little bit better or to support ourselves in that process, that's what we're looking for. So this would be an excellent time to utilize self compassion, to recognize that we might make mistakes, and that's okay. Because the more we practice, the more it's gonna become a habit. And we all know that humans love habits. We engage in what feels comfortable.

Reilly Chabie [00:44:31]: So as soon as we start practicing this, it's gonna become more comfortable, and we're gonna feel more likely to rely on our ability to build balance because we've put in that work and practice. So building that acceptance, that self compassion, and it's not an easy process, but it's definitely doable as long as we keep practicing. And as we kind of wrap up today's conversation and before I hopefully open it up to a few questions, I just wanna mention some resources that we have on campus that I want everybody to have access to. So first and foremost, counseling and psychological services where I'm coming from. We are located in the university center on the 2nd floor room 264. You can come, you know, chat with us, engage with us, etcetera. But we are very focused on helping you navigate the challenges that might come up in terms of setting boundaries or, you know, building balance that we have that ability to process and work through that with you. So I want you to know that we are available.

Reilly Chabie [00:45:32]: Couple other things that can be helpful, you know, especially if we're going back to some of those tips about setting up self care or building and relaxation caps has access to our massage chair, which mind you very awesome. We love using it. So please feel free to stop by and schedule an appointment to use our massage chair. We also have our biofeedback software system, which helps promote relaxation and reduction of anxiety through mindfulness practices. And we definitely love utilizing that. So you can always come and use our materials. Once again, we have our information, here. So our phone number, you can stop by the office or you can request an appointment online if you'd like to start seeing one of our counselors.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:16]: And then, of course, you can view all of our other information and other resources through the CAPS website. And then lastly, just some other areas on campus that might be helpful. So recreational services, they are awesome. They are very supportive in the process of wellness. They have a lot of great classes and certain things that are going on all the time. We have the student success center, which not only helps with maybe some of those academic challenges, but also just that ability to navigate your career or other things that are up and coming. There's also within the student success center, we have tutoring or supplemental instruction, depending on the types of courses you're taking. And we also have the Thompson library, which is just a great resource for additional materials.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:59]: We also have, they, they actually put on a lot of events throughout the year as well, and they can be a helpful space to collaborate, to connect and to kind of build some of these supports in play. So I appreciate your time. And I know that's a lot to think about, but overall there's a lot of supports here on campus for you. And there are ways to navigate balance. And as long as you're kind of looking at some of those areas of wellness, you'll definitely be able to create balance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:47:28]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate education can often feel like an uncharted territory brimming with challenges and decisions that significantly impact one's career trajectory. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Giordano, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at the University of Michigan - Flint, shared his multifaceted journey through various degrees, offering invaluable insights and advice for prospective and current grad students.

From English Literature to Counseling Services

Dr. Giordano's journey began with an undergraduate degree in English Language and Literature from Rowan University. Although he cherished the skills acquired, it soon became evident that the path didn't offer the career direction he sought. A year into a lackluster job as a copy editor, Dr. Giordano encountered an opportunity to delve into student affairs through a graduate residence director role. This serendipitous chance allowed him to pursue a Master's degree in Counseling Services, a move influenced largely by the practical benefits of a tuition waiver. "A lot of this is exploration and discovery and kind of being open to what could be," said Dr. Giordano, emphasizing the importance of adaptability.

The Stepping Stones: Certificates and Doctorates

Dr. Giordano's thirst for knowledge didn't stop at a master's degree. His career saw him picking up a graduate certificate in Adult and Organizational Learning from Suffolk University, which he described as a crucial stepping stone that prepared him mentally and academically for the rigors of a doctoral program. His eventual Ph.D. in Higher Education from the University of Toledo proved pivotal. "Understanding the environment that we work in, the institution type, different student demographics...really taught me just kind of the world of higher ed and expanded my lens," he noted. Each academic pursuit was a calculated move to enrich his skills, broaden his scope, and offer deeper insights into student affairs.

Balancing Commitments: Keys to Success

Dr. Giordano highlighted the importance of realistic goal-setting and time management. "You're going to have to sacrifice something," he noted, speaking candidly about balancing full-time work, family commitments, and academic demands. His strategy involved turning a local coffee shop into his makeshift office and using late hours in his work office to focus on his studies. Personalizing his study environments and setting strict boundaries enabled him to successfully navigate through numerous academic challenges.

Empowering Students: A Holistic Approach

Today, Dr. Giordano employs skills gleaned from his counseling background to manage both people and situations effectively. Active listening, empathy, and conflict resolution are tools he uses daily to support his team and the broader student body at the University of Michigan Flint. His biggest advice to students contemplating graduate education is to "follow your heart" and to pursue areas where they have genuine passion, reflecting his own son's decision to switch majors to meteorology—a bold step fueled by passion despite the rigorous path ahead.

Final Thoughts

Dr. Giordano's narrative is a testament to the nonlinear, often unpredictable paths that many take in their pursuit of higher education. His journey underscores the value of being adaptable, understanding oneself, and committing fully to one's passions. Whether you are at the beginning of your journey or navigating through it, his insights offer a roadmap to making the most out of your graduate school experience.

For those contemplating graduate studies, Dr. Giordano's story is a powerful reminder that the path to success is seldom straight but is always worth the journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We're on this journey of looking at grad school. You may be at the very beginning where you haven't even applied for grad yet, but you've got that inkling in your mind where you're saying to yourself, you know what? Grad school is where I am headed. And you're just starting to look at things, or you might have already applied. Maybe you got accepted already, or maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: No matter where you are, you are on a journey, and it will be continue to be a journey until you're through that graduate school experience. And that's what this podcast is all about. It is here to help you along this journey to give you some tools for your toolbox and to give you some ideas, some thoughts, some perspectives from other people that have gone before you that can help you to see maybe some of the roadblocks, some of the barriers, some of the things that those bumps along the way that you might not anticipate, and so that you can start planning ahead of time. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have done this graduate school journey for themselves, and it can provide some of their own perspective. And today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor. Christopher Giordano is with us today. And Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: Christopher Giordano is the vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. And he went on his own graduate school journey. And we're gonna talk about that today. I'm really excited to have him here today to share that journey with you. Chris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:01:47]: Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks, Chris. Happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I we're gonna go back in time. I wanna go back to those undergraduate days at Rowan University, where I know you did your undergraduate work. And, you know, you did that undergraduate work in English language and literature. But then at some point, after getting that first degree, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were gonna continue on and get a graduate degree in a different area in counseling services. So talk to me about what led you to decide initially that you wanted to move forward and move into that graduate degree?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:02:25]: Absolutely. So like you mentioned, we all have our own journeys, and there are multiple kind of factors and variables that enter into how we make the decisions we do or how we end up where we do. And for me, it was sort of unique in that I had an English literature, English degree as an undergrad, which I loved, prepared me in in ways I had not anticipated. Use those skills today still, but it didn't really provide me with a career path per se because I wasn't interested in in teaching. I wasn't interested in secondary ed. So I ended up, working as a copy editor at KPMG. So back in the day, there were the big six accounting firms. It was KPMG, Pete Warwick.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:03:19]: Now I think there are maybe 4 or who knows with all the with all the mergers. It was a very good global organization, but the work was not really what I was looking for. And sometimes you don't know until you do it. So I was literally editing business and consulting reports, and I would equate that to watching paint dry or watching a fan oscillate. I mean, it's pretty dry. Know, good experience, but not necessarily what I was looking for long term. So I did that for a year. And like many other people, you graduate, you need a an income.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:03:53]: So it was a steady income. But then at that point, I decided that I had some friends out in California, and we always talked about maybe living out there together, so moved out there. But I went out there during a very difficult time. It was during one of our recessions, and it was very difficult to find employment at that time. So I ended up coming back to New Jersey where I was from, and I was looking at all kinds of opportunities. And I saw this opportunity as a graduate residence director at a small private college in New Jersey, probably about 10 minutes outside of Manhattan. And I was applying to many things at the time. So I was considering graduate school, but I think this is what led me to pursue it at that time because I ended up getting that position.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:04:40]: And as part of that position, I was able to go back, get my master's for free in exchange for working in the residence halls. So that's what got me in, and the program that seemed to fit me best was their counseling services program. So I ended up enrolling in that program. And, you know, that's really provided me with with some, terrific, direction and skill development in ways that I hadn't anticipated as well. So a lot of this is exploration and discovery and and kind of being open to what could be and then being flexible with how you look at the next phases of your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:16]: It's always important to look at those options. And, you know, it's interesting because when looking at some of your backgrounds, you also got another credential as you went along. You were working at Suffolk University and you got a graduate certificate, as adult in organizational learning. And then you continued on and got your doctorate degree at the University of Toledo, not exactly at the same time that you were working at the University of Toledo. So talk to me about those additional credentials. So you went on after the master's degree. You decided to continue learning, continuing to push yourself in different ways. What made you decide to get the graduate certificate, but then to push yourself even further to get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:05:54]: Having received the the master's in counseling at what was at the time of Uppsala College, we were required to have 2 experiential types of placements. 1 was a practicum, and 1 was an internship. So I completed a practicum in a counseling center at William Patterson University, which is a state university in New Jersey. And I completed an internship in career services at Montclair State University and another state university in Jersey. And then that really helped with my pathway into higher ed. So my first position was at Long Island University at the CW Post campus as a co op coordinator, but that sort of propelled me on on the pathway of careers in in higher ed. And in higher ed, our product is education. This is kinda what we do.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:06:44]: This is what we produce in addition to all kinds of other ancillary things. But, when you're in this this environment and in this culture, I think you continue to crave, you know, learning and more exploration, more discovery. So I had before I actually pursued that organizational learning certificate, I was working at the University of Connecticut and I enrolled in their doctoral program in human and family studies. My real path was in career in student affairs. That was my career path, but they didn't have a a student affairs program, student affairs higher ed. So this was one that I thought was close. You know, it was at a time in my life where I didn't have a lot of other demands on my time, and I thought it was, you know, the right time to go back. And and I took 2 or 3 classes in that program, and I just realized it wasn't for me.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:07:36]: If I was gonna dedicate the time and effort, I needed to do it in an area where I had more of a passion. So that's what led me to, so when I took that position up in Boston at Suffolk, they had an organizational learning certificate, which at the time was meant to help get me back into the mind space of pursuing a a doctoral degree. So, you know, when you're out of it for a while, you forget what it's like to be a student. You forget what it's like to be kind of in that space and the type of discipline and focus and sacrifice it takes to hold a full time job and and then to go back and pursue a degree. So that was really designed just to get me kind of back into the swing of things. So I completed that, and then that I felt I was better prepared then to enter into a doctoral program. And that's what I did at the University of Toledo.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]: And talk to me a little bit about the University of Toledo. You weren't working there, so it's not the same perspective in regards to some of your other degrees and working for those institutions. What made you decide that the University of Toledo was the right bit for the doctorate program that you chose to attend?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:08:43]: Well, I was working there for a short time, so I'll go a little far afield here, but my wife and I met in Boston. We were at the, working at the same university in Boston. She's originally from Toledo, born and raised. She was looking to get back there. We just had a couple kids and cost of living, close to family, all that kind of stuff. So I ended up accepting a position at the University of Toledo, and I worked there for a year. And I enrolled in their doctoral program during that 1st year. And I was only really interested in applying for positions at universities that had doctoral programs that I was interested in, and they had a higher ed doctoral program.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:09:19]: So I started there, and then again, this was in, I'm gonna say 2,009, and I think that was when another big recession hit. And my position was a newly created position, so it was one of the first that was that was sort of eliminated. So I began the program, transitioned into another role at another college, but then I maintained my my enrollment in that higher ed program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]: So in all of these different degrees, going from undergrad to masters, going into the certificate, going into the doctorate, every level, there are transitions. Every student goes through them. You started off by going from high school into undergrad, undergrad into those additional degrees, and you found success in those. You got through the degrees. You kept moving forward in your career. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in those different degrees? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experiences?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:10:15]: Yeah. I would say a big part of this for me is you understanding the commitment that it's gonna take to get through this, especially when you have all these other demands in your life. If you're working a full time job, if you do have a family, if you have other sort of obligations and responsibilities, you're gonna have to sacrifice something. And for me, I knew I wasn't really willing to sacrifice the time with my kids, so it was all the other sort of leisure activities that I would normally do. And my time was really spent just focusing on classes, study time, weekends would be dedicated to study. And for me, I knew I couldn't do it at home. There were just too many distractions at home. So I remember in Toledo, there's this little Big B Coffee Shop, and I would take up this corner table in this big b coffee shop, and I would be there every week, every month for years, and that was sort of my my office.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:11:11]: The other place I I would work, I would stay late in my office at work, and I would work there as well. I just knew that, trying to work at home was not gonna be, I think, effective for me, which is just personal. It's, you know, it's it's what works best for you. So I needed to make those decisions about what I was willing to, eliminate to create additional time for me to do the things I needed to do to be successful. And and if you enter into something, you you certainly wanna set yourself up for success. And I think sometimes that's that's where we we fall down a little bit is not really taking into account how this is gonna affect the rest of your life, and then making those sort of intentional decisions about how you're gonna alter that to allow yourself to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: Now you've had numerous degrees. They've been at in different types of areas. Talk to me about, as you look back at your graduate education and you look back at your career and the work that you're doing now as a vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, how do you feel that those graduate degrees, your undergraduate degree, all of these degrees in total, have prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:12:21]: I think it's a great question. And I and I think each has served a role. As an undergraduate English major, it really teaches you how to think critically. It develops effective problem solving skills. It certainly helps with developing strong communication skills, certainly written communications. That's a huge part of my position here constantly, you know, having to craft different communications, whether it's it's out to the campus, whether it's to other constituents needing to speak in front of groups. So you have to develop, you know, the the ability to to, craft comments and be effective at public speaking. So the English degree has really helped me, I would say, throughout my career.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:13:05]: And and again, in ways that I didn't necessarily anticipate. And my my counseling degree has really helped me as as a supervisor and as as a leader. It's really provided me, and I use these counseling skills every day. The active listening skills, you know, empathy and and conflict resolution, team building. All of these things through counseling, I really use on a daily basis because as you continue to grow in your career, and certainly along my career path, you take on more of an administrative role. And as an administrator, what you're doing is managing people and situations. And that is the lion's share of what you do, and you have to have sort of the emotional intelligence and the ability to manage people in effective ways and hold people accountable, but at the same time provide them with the kind of support and resources they need to be successful. So much of what I learned in counseling has really allowed me to focus in on what some of the issues are, whether it's person centered or issue centered, and then really develop some intentional ways of meeting needs of of people or managing people in situations.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:14:24]: But I remember when I was a counselor in some of these counseling sessions, you are so laser focused on not only what somebody is saying, but how they're saying it, what their body language is, what their facial expressions are. And these are all different types of communications. So I continue to use that as I work with people and really try to necessarily what they're truly communicating or what truly the issue is. And really try being sure that you're you're not solving what you think the issue is, but you're at the heart of truly what is the issue, and then you're you're kind of getting at that. So counseling has certainly helped me with that. And then the doctoral degree, that's really understanding the environment that we work in, the institution type, different student demographics, what you can know through data about your student population on the way in, so you can prepare for what some of these needs are gonna be, what some of these gap areas are, and how you continue to create the conditions and environments that allow them to be successful. And in many ways, especially at the type of institution that we work at, it's a very targeted approach because we have such a diverse student population. So that really taught me just kind of the world of higher ed and expanded my lens, I think, and the scope of my view of what higher ed was at all the different types of institutions that we have and how to best serve students for them to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:15:57]: So while I can't claim that this was all planned because it certainly was not, it all fell into place in a way that has worked. So that's part of the message too is sometimes things happen in ways that you hadn't planned. And I think if you're just open to those possibilities, you can arrive at a destination through a route that you didn't anticipate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:23]: The path is not always a straight line.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:16:25]: That's for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:27]: Many times circuitous in the easy sense of the word. So as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that you've interacted with over your career and you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:16:46]: Yeah. I would say giving yourself the time and the grace to really understand who you are, understand yourself. Give yourself an opportunity to truthfully assess what your strengths are, you know, what your interests are, what environments you feel comfortable in, but also to be comfortable with accepting who we are. All of us, we're all a whole collection of things. Some good, some not so good, and that's okay, but that's who we are. But give yourself an opportunity to really understand yourself. And I think that will help to eliminate some potential paths, but then open up some others that maybe we didn't anticipate. Because we wanna again, what we try to do with all of our students is we wanna create the conditions to allow them to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:17:33]: You want to enter into some areas that will amplify your strengths and will take advantage of things that you're good at or you truly have an interest and a passion about. And, you know, that would be another piece is really trying to pursue something or an area that that you you have a passion about. Because you're gonna come to work every day whether you like it or not, and we hope that you like it. So, you know, do something that you really have a passion about. And one example I can provide is my son. So my son just started as a freshman at Saint Louis University, got accepted into the business school. It's a good business school. I mean, he was in pretty good shape.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:18:12]: But he's been hinting around that that's really not what he's interested. That's not his passion. He has always been interested in weather, always. But I also understand that there is a lot of math and science involved with atmospheric science and meteorology or whatever it might be. And I was a little gun shy about him moving in that direction because it's gonna be pretty rigorous. But he stuck to his guns, I give him credit, and he's changed his major. He's now a meteorology major, and he's following that path. And I give him credit.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:18:42]: And it's hard sometimes when people like me as a parent are encouraging you maybe in another direction, but you gotta stick to your guns. And you know what's best for you. And I know it's not always easy, but follow your heart. You know what's in there. You know what's really gonna be best for you, and stick to your guns. And then I think you'll be true to yourself and put yourself on the right path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:03]: Well, Chris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, your advice and sharing some of the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:19:11]: Chris, thanks so much. This was a lot of fun. Really enjoyed it, and keep up the good work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a unique journey marked by both challenges and triumphs. For those pursuing careers in the healthcare sector, like Yasmine Affes, a Physician Assistant (PA) student at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey is even more demanding and rewarding. In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Yasmin shares her insights, from choosing a graduate program to finding success within it. This blog explores her journey, her path to leadership, and her tips for future graduate students.

The Journey to Graduate School

Yasmine's journey to graduate school began in high school, ignited by her passion for math and science and guided by her mother, a physician. Unlike many who stumble upon their career paths, Yasmine was proactive, researching various medical professions with her mother's help. She discovered the PA role, a perfect blend of her interests and career aspirations, offering flexibility across various medical specialties.

Yasmine received her undergraduate degree in Sports and Exercise Science from Wayne State University. During her undergrad years, she accumulated essential clinical hours and served as President of the Pre-PA Society, demonstrating her leadership potential early on.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Selecting the right graduate program can be overwhelming. Yasmin solely applied to the PA program at the University of Michigan Flint, a decision influenced by her extensive research and active involvement in the Pre-PA Society. Her interaction with the program director and faculty, coupled with the program's commitment to serving underserved communities like Flint, cemented her choice.

"I loved everything about U of M Flint's program... and I could not be more happy with my decision. The biggest reason I chose PA was because of the flexibility," Yasmin shares.

Overcoming Challenges

Graduate school is notoriously challenging, a truth Yasmine experienced first-hand. She struggled in her first semester, even failing an exam. Rather than view these setbacks as failures, Yasmin leveraged them as learning opportunities.

"Grad school is a different beast... but those are the topics we're truly interested in," she reflects. Yasmin adapted her study techniques, focusing on creating questions and scenarios that deepened her understanding of medical conditions.

The support from faculty and resources like a learning specialist played crucial roles in her academic turnaround. Reflecting on her journey, Yasmine emphasizes the importance of resilience and adapting one's study methods to meet the rigors of graduate education.

Leadership and Advocacy

Yasmine's leadership journey didn't stop at the state level. Her involvement with the Michigan Academy of Physician Associates (MAPPA) piqued her interest in national advocacy. Encouraged by peers and her own drive, Yasmin ran for and was elected President-Elect of the Student Academy with the American Academy of Physician Associates (AAPA).

This role blends her passion for advocacy and leadership, allowing her to impact legislation and advocate for PA students nationwide. Yasmin expresses a deep commitment to increasing diversity within the PA profession and advocating for underserved communities.

Tips for Future Graduate Students

Drawing from her experiences, Yasmine offers several tips to future graduate students, particularly those in clinically based programs:

1. Active Learning: Passive learning is insufficient for mastering complex medical topics. Yasmin recommends actively engaging with the material by creating detailed scenarios and questions to test understanding.

2. Utilize Resources: Most graduate programs offer support resources like learning specialists. Yasmin found these invaluable in overcoming academic hurdles.

3. Network and Get Involved: Building a robust professional network is crucial. Yasmin's involvement in state and national advocacy not only broadened her network but also enriched her educational experience.

4. Resilience: Accept setbacks as part of the process. Yasmin's initial struggles were pivotal in developing the adaptive strategies that led to her success.

Yasmine Affes' journey underscores the importance of preparation, adaptability, and involvement in finding success in graduate school. Her story is a testament to the impact of resilience and leadership in overcoming challenges and making a difference.

For those on the cusp of their graduate school journey, Yasmin's experiences offer a blueprint for navigating this complex and rewarding path successfully. As she continues to advocate for PA students and underserved communities, Yasmin exemplifies the potential for graduate students to make significant contributions to their fields and communities.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, you are on a journey. And I say it's a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school is in graduate school, sees that light at the end of the tunnel because you're almost done with graduate school. Wherever you are in this continuum of thinking about or being in graduate school, you're on that journey, and you're working toward the goals that you that you have set for yourself. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and to be a resource for you, to help you to be able to step through that journey, walk through that journey to help you along the way. And that's why every week we bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have walked on this path like yourself, that are currently in graduate school, have completed graduate school, but have figured out some things along the way about what it takes to find success in that journey. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Yasmin Afes is with us today, and Yasmin is a physician assistant student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She did her undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And then soon after graduating, she made that decision of applying to graduate school and decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But I'm really excited to be able to talk with her about her experiences and her journey into graduate school and now through graduate school, and I'm happy to introduce her to you today. Yasmin, thanks so much for being here today.

Yasmine Affes [00:01:58]: No. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:59]: It is my pleasure. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you. I mentioned that you had done your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And every student has that origin story and that journey that they go on. You did your bachelor's degree in sports and exercise science. And sometime along the way, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on to work toward being a physician assistant. I know you've got involved as an undergraduate student in the pre PA society there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: You were the president of the pre PA society there. So bring me back. Let's go back to that beginning and talk to me about those first steps. And what were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue on to go to graduate school to become a physician assistant?

Yasmine Affes [00:02:44]: Yeah. So I actually started in high school. My senior year of high school, I remember thinking like, what school do I want to go to and what do I wanna major in? Because those things determine what I wanna do for the rest of my life as well. So I was like concerned about it because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I guess that was most people in high school. I was like, I need to figure this out. Like, I need to come up with a plan. And I talked to my parents about it.

Yasmine Affes [00:03:09]: I was like, I don't wanna go to medical school, but I like medicine. Like, I like math and science. Those have always been my strong suits. And my mom told me about the PA profession. And we both did research together about it and saw, like, what I needed to do. So my senior year of high school, she actually put me in I'm lucky because my mom is in also in medicine. My mom was a physician. So she helped me a lot guide me through the ropes.

Yasmine Affes [00:03:33]: But, throughout this journey, like, I have that guidance. So what I try to do is give it back to others. So my mom put me in certified nurse assistant course. So my first job was a CNA out of high school, And then I accumulated my patient care hours throughout undergraduate. I worked as a COVID tester. I worked as a medical assistant for a pulmonologist for two and a half years. So I got all of my hours in during undergrad so that I could just go straight from undergrad to PA school. So that kind of worked out well for me, and I got really involved at Wayne State as well.

Yasmine Affes [00:04:09]: I actually chose Wayne State first because it's a good, like, medical school or and, like, it has great math and science courses. But second, because I ran track in college, I always wanted to run track, and I wanted to pick a school where I could do that and something I'm interested in. So and then I ended up starting my own club at Wayne State called Herd Immunity where we discussed vaccines and the importance of vaccines. And I think, like, having that extra curricular involvement and being involved in the community in Detroit an underserved area and applying to school that's in Flint also an underserved area those attributes were very appealing for me and my application. I I feel like U of M Flint was actually the only graduate school I applied to that cycle. I really enjoyed the program. I went to so many monthly meetings and I loved the faculty. They knew my face because I would ask so many questions every time but I loved everything about U of M Flint's program and that ended up being the only school I applied to and I could not be more happy with my decision.

Yasmine Affes [00:05:15]: And I love PA school. My mom says no matter which PA school you would go to you would love it, but I think our faculty is super supportive, and it's been amazing. The biggest reason I chose PA was because of the flexibility. So you can work in any specialty. We're trained as generalist. We're based on the medical model, so we're learning similar things to students in medical school are, maybe a little less detailed. There's a lot less histology, like cellular level things, and there's less pathophysiology. We learn really the nitty gritty, the basics, and then we build upon that.

Yasmine Affes [00:05:51]: So we also don't get any breaks throughout school. It's a continuous 27 no. Mine is 28 month program. The average program in the country is 27 months. That's why I ended up choosing PA school, and I'm really happy with that decision.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:07]: So I can tell you did your research, which is great because not everybody does as thorough of research as it seems like you did to figure out the right program for you, and you did choose to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. Bring me back to that decision making process for you. You did say that you did your research and you only applied to the one program. Not everybody chooses to do that in the in the CASPA system, and, you know, many people will choose to try a couple of programs that seem like good fits. So what were you looking for in a PA program, and what made you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was that only pro program that you're going to apply to?

Yasmine Affes [00:06:47]: Yeah. So I went to the most monthly meetings for U of M Flint. I went to so many during undergraduate because I was the president of the pre PA society. I had to talk about these programs and what makes them different and different attributes. So I had to educate myself, but also it was a win win because I had to learn about the other programs in the state for myself so that I knew what would be the best fit for me. Our program director, Gilkey, she actually spoke to our pre PA society. And the first time she spoke to us, I think I was a sophomore in college, and I was running that meeting because the higher ups couldn't go. So I was asking professor Gilkey questions about the program, and I fell in love with it then and there.

Yasmine Affes [00:07:27]: She really talked about wanting to support the community of Flint and things that we could do to help Flint. There's like a volunteer program. We go to we go to schools and tutor kids in an after school program. I think we did it about 3 or 4 times a semester for a few hours, and those were pivotal moments to see, like, what is really happening in our community. I had a child who was crying and I thought, oh, she might have gotten hurt. She might have been bullied or something. And I went up to her and I was like, why are you crying, sweetie? And she had tooth pain. And I looked in her mouth with a flashlight and she had the worst cavity rotten tooth I've ever seen.

Yasmine Affes [00:08:08]: Like, she's never been to the dentist and just seeing, like, the health disparities in this community and wanting to be able to help them. I've always wanted to work in an underserved community. I plan to work in an area similar to Flint or Detroit or somewhere where I can truly make a difference. And I think having that experience in a community like this is amazing. I mean, she didn't go into as much detail as that when she was talking about it, but I was really in awe of the program and the things that they do to help blend in. So that's ultimately why I chose it. And, also, because CASPA has a different application cycle, our school isn't rolling, and the application deadline was later than the other schools, and I just didn't feel confident. I feel like I'm kind of a perfectionist, and it was ultimately, like, one of my top choices.

Yasmine Affes [00:08:56]: So I was, like, it's okay if I just apply to one school this cycle. I can apply to much more. And the high school is extremely competitive. Like, I was not thinking I was gonna get in the first time, especially only limiting myself to one school. For the students listening, I recommend applying to, like, 7 to 9, but really truly doing your research on every program and every single requirement. Because a lot of schools, if you don't meet all of the requirements, they don't even look at your application. So it's super important to do your research and take time. And I felt like giving all of my time and energy into one school definitely upped my chances, but also, like, limited myself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:33]: Now every student goes through a transition and you go through undergraduate, you're taught in a specific way. You get used to that way as you go through that experience. And then you go to grad school. And in grad school, it's very different, especially being in a clinically based program, very different model of education, learning, etcetera. So there is that transition of being able to make that jump from undergraduate to graduate and being able to find success in that. So talk to me about what you had to do. What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into the program? What have you had to do to maintain that success as you've gone through the program thus far?

Yasmine Affes [00:10:16]: Yeah. Grad school is a different beast. Everyone tells you it's so much harder than undergrad, but you truly don't understand until you're in it. And I struggled a lot my 1st semester. I was failing exams. I was not confident in myself. I thought, oh my god. Like, I'm the only one in my class who failed this.

Yasmine Affes [00:10:34]: Like, I'm not cut out for PA school. But at the end of the day, these are the topics we're truly interested in. Like, this is the medicine. This is things that are helping people. And in the future, we will need this knowledge no matter what. So I just changed up my study tactics, and I failed a class my 1st semester, which was really scary. But since then on, I I never failed again. I found my groove, and I think it helped me learn, like, oh my god.

Yasmine Affes [00:11:01]: This is really serious, and I need to put more effort into finding a way that works for me to study. But, wow, grad school is so difficult. I've finally found my way, and I think right now I'm doing really well, and I only accredit it to my failures on the past.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: And sometimes you have to have those stumbles, those failures along the way. And sometimes that's difficult because students that go to graduate school, sometimes they had smooth sailing in undergrad, did really well, didn't have any stumbles in there, and then they get to graduate school. And then that confidence, that imposter syndrome sets in, and you feel like, should I be here? Am I cut out for this? Is this really what and you gotta tell that brain of yours to just shut up and be able to keep moving forward because, like you said, you found your groove. It may take a little bit of time and figuring out, okay, what do I have to do different in this type of education versus what I had to do as an undergrad?

Yasmine Affes [00:12:03]: Yeah. And for our program, we have a learning specialist that also works with the medical students at U of M. So she will tell you what to change up and help you along the way as well. We have a great faculty who will support you along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:17]: So one of the other things that I know that you did, you you were very involved as an undergraduate student. And then as you got into your work here in the PA program, you decided to get involved with the Michigan Academy of Physician Associates. You became a class representative. You got involved, with the public relations committee. You did a number of things, which I'll have to say, probably should not be a surprise with how involved you were as an undergraduate student. But that's good because I've talked about in the past that it's important for your future success to be able to not only focus on the academics, because that's why you're here, but to create that network for yourself and build other opportunities. But now you ran and you are the president-elect for the student academy with the American Academy of Physician Associates. Talk to me about this position that you now are in and what you're going to be in as you become the president of the student academy and why you decided that you wanted to get involved at that national level?

Yasmine Affes [00:13:19]: So I was extremely involved at the state level. I was going to the MAPPA summit, which is our Capitol Hill day, advocating for bills that PAs should be included in. We're not trying to increase the scope of practice in any type of way, but I think it was we were left out of because our profession is still so new. But we talk about the bills with the legislators and they're like, yeah. Like, I don't know why you're not in this. It's like very basic. So it was a learning experience because it sounds so scary to talk to a legislator, but they're just people. They're just like us, and they absolutely love to hear from their constituents.

Yasmine Affes [00:13:52]: So I thought that was a really impactful experience. And then we actually brought a legislator in to speak to our program, and I felt like I was getting a lot of leadership and experience through Michigan Academy of Physician Associates. And then Kyle, one of my classmates, he is our leadership and advocacy chair in our student society, and he brought in our student adviser for the student academy from AAPA. And she spoke with us and told us about different leadership opportunities and said anyone could run any PA student. And I was like, wow. Like, I just assumed that only the American Academy of Physician Associate class representative could run for these positions. I had no idea a Michigan state representative could. So I was like, wow.

Yasmine Affes [00:14:36]: I have all of this great leadership experience. I've done so much for the state of Michigan. I bet I could push it further and do it for the whole country. I have the time. I have the study group now. I love being involved. I'm super passionate about it. I will always take time out of my day if it can make a positive impact.

Yasmine Affes [00:14:55]: So I was like, I feel like I'm the right person for this job, and I wasn't gonna run for that position right away. The president, it's kind of an intimidating position. I was thinking about running for the communications director position, and I wrote this whole speech and I gave it to my sister. And my sister was like, it really sounds like you wanna run for president. So I was like, you know what? Go big or go home. Like, let's just do it, see what happens. So I did run, and I was a little bit worried because all of the other positions are just 1 year positions, and this one is a 2 year position. But I was like, it's okay.

Yasmine Affes [00:15:29]: When I'm a PA, no matter what, I'll still be involved, so might as well just take on this role. So I ended up running. I ran against a few other candidates, and we had to write a speech. And it was a lot of fun along the process, and everyone was super nice and helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:45]: So talk to me about some of the things that you hope to be able to accomplish in that year that you're going to be president of the group.

Yasmine Affes [00:15:53]: As president-elect, I kind of take on the vice president role, and we have 4 different committees for the student academy. And different regional directors and different positions can take on chair of those. I can't. So I end up I'm gonna be the liaison for all 4 committees. So I go to each committee meeting, and I help out where it's needed. I get resources from AAPA where it's needed. And then starting in July, I'll start my president role, and that's where I'll be working more with the big board of the nation. So I will be the student representative advocating for students on the national board with the president of AAPA and all the rest.

Yasmine Affes [00:16:35]: So I'll definitely be able to make more of an impact in that role, but both are extremely important and fulfilling in both ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: Are there specific things that during your president year that you ran on that you hope that you can accomplish in that year that you're going to be president?

Yasmine Affes [00:16:51]: Yeah. I think that's this year. I'm definitely learning from the president now. I'm glad I'm not just being thrown into the ropes, and I get to really figure out what I want to do that is an attainable goal because I feel like my goals are very difficult to achieve. I might need to level it down maybe, but basically increasing diversity in the PA profession, having people with different perspectives, different backgrounds, even myself. I am lucky to have that guidance from my mother who is in medicine and not everyone has the opportunity. So definitely going to high schools and underserved areas, speaking to them about the PA profession, how the route they can take to get into PA school and having their voices heard and their communities being seen, that's a huge thing that I want to see in the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:37]: Now you're currently in the program. You're in your 2nd year of the program. And as you said, you had some stumbling blocks at the beginning. You learned some things. As you think about future graduate students, could be in PA, could be in some other area, but as you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, and you think of the experiences you've had thus far, as you look back on the education you've had and what you have to come, what are some tips that you might recommend to these other students that could help them find success sooner?

Yasmine Affes [00:18:08]: So what I kind of learned is passive learning is absolutely nothing. It's not gonna do anything for you. You have to be actively using your thoughts in your brain. So what I like to do is I like to read our slides and our materials and write questions. I will write a vignette, like a 2 order question myself so that if I can answer this question, I know the whole entire disorder disease. So I would do, like, 28 year old with a history of hypertension and and has a sore on their leg. They're having cramping when they're walking and their legs are cold to touch. And then I would say, what's the first line treatment? So you have no idea what disorder they have.

Yasmine Affes [00:18:50]: You have to figure out what disorder they have, and then you have to know what's the treatment. So it's 2 different thoughts into this question. So I like to write those for each condition. And then first off, it builds the story of of a patient in my brain. And then I have to know that whole disease to answer that question. And then just having that second order thoughts actively. You're thinking about, like, what other people would be thinking about. And just having that thought process helps me so much.

Yasmine Affes [00:19:18]: I actually write questions for my classmates, and I send it to them. And they'll take the exams that I write before our exams, and everyone loves it. And that's how I study. I I never really did anything outside of that because it took so much time to write those questions. That helped me a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:33]: Well, Yasmin, I wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I truly am excited to hear more about this journey that you're going to be on, to be the president of this national group coming up and representing not only the University of Michigan Flint, but representing PAs across the nation and upcoming PAs across the nation. And I truly wish you all the best.

Yasmine Affes [00:19:57]: Thank you so much for having me. I wish you the best as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].