Victors in Grad School

Welcome to the Victors in Grad School podcast, where we explore the graduate school journeys of people and what they had to do to find success in this journey. Today, we welcome Robb King, a seasoned professional in public relations, who shares his insights on the importance of ongoing education and the significant transitions that come with it.

The Spark for Continued Education

Robb King's professional narrative began with an undergraduate degree in communications from the University of Michigan, Flint. After diving into the workforce as a sports reporter and later making significant contributions in public relations, King reached a pivotal moment—realizing the need for higher education to fulfill his career aspirations.

Reflecting on his journey, King states, "_I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education... [enabling me] to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my tenure at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back._"

King's story illustrates the significant factors influencing his decision to pursue a graduate degree. Despite successful professional stints, the desire to impact others in higher education reignited his academic pursuits.

Navigating the Transition Back to Education

Transitioning back to education after a significant hiatus posed unique challenges for King. Nearly 20 years had passed since he completed his undergraduate studies. "

Being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers... it was still about getting into that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow" King recollects.

The essence of becoming a student again, juxtaposed with years as a professional, required King to draw upon his skills in research and storytelling to make the transition smoother. He emphasized the value of maintaining a student mentality, essential for adapting to and excelling in a rigorous academic environment.

Choosing Public Relations and Kent State

King's decision to pursue a master's degree in public relations was driven by his intrinsic passion for storytelling and his extensive experience in the field. Rather than venturing into other areas such as marketing or an MBA, King chose to deepen his expertise in public relations.

"At the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller... That's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together," King explains.

Choosing Kent State was strategic—leveraging a tuition waiver offered by his employer made financial sense, enabling him to focus on his education without the burden of significant student debt.

Applying Graduate Education to Professional Life

King's narrative underscores how graduate education fortified his professional trajectory. The advanced degree provided him the credibility and toolkit necessary to assume higher leadership roles. It also served as a refresher that validated his past decisions and corrected any previous missteps.

"In doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that I had made the right career choice... It was a neat thing to relate my personal experiences to my reading assignments and go, 'Okay, I was doing the right thing all along,'" King remarks.

His education facilitated smooth transitions into senior roles, including as the Chief Communication Officer at Slippery Rock University and later as the Director of Marketing and Communications at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

King offers sage advice for individuals contemplating the pursuit of graduate education:

• Commit Fully:** "If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with both feet and go after it."
• Embrace Resilience:** "Expect to stumble and make mistakes, but remember that these are learning opportunities."
• Prioritize Wisely: "It's essential to set aside time for study, even if it means sacrificing certain social engagements for long-term gains."

Robb King's journey exemplifies the power of continuous learning and its capacity to transform one's career and personal growth. By fully embracing the student mentality and leveraging educational opportunities, King charted a path of professional excellence and meaningful impact.

For those contemplating a similar journey, King's experience offers a beacon of insight and inspiration, affirming that the path to higher education, though challenging, is unequivocally rewarding.

If you're considering advancing your education, the University of Michigan Flint offers diverse graduate programs catered to both in-person and online learners. For more information, visit UM-Flint Graduate Programs. Embark on your own journey to educational and professional excellence today.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to talk with you about this journey that you're on. I say that every week, but it's so true. It is a journey. And some of you may be just thinking about you may be just thinking, starting to think about this idea of going and continuing your education. You might have been in the workforce for some time and now saying, You know what? I think I need to do something to be able to push me in a little bit different direction, to get some different experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: You might be saying to yourself, you know what? If I do this, I'm going to be able to get that job that I always wanted. I'm going to be able to meet that goal that I've set for myself. You might be in graduate school right now or looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter where you are, this podcast was set up to help you find success in that journey. And that's why every week I love being able to talk with you, to work with you, to introduce you to different people that have had different experiences that have gone on to get that graduate degree and can give you some of their experiences, positive, negative, in between, that can help you to be able to add some tools to your toolbox that you can take with you as you go on this journey yourself. That's why every week we do bring you different guests, different people that can share some of those things with you. And today we've got another great guest with us. Rob King is with us. And Rob did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went out into the workforce, worked for a number of years, and then continued on and got that graduate degree at Kent State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And we're going to be talking about that journey that he went on and learning from his experience. Rob, thanks so much for being here today.

Robb King [00:02:09]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. And what I love doing 1st and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you got that bachelor's degree in communications. And from there you went off and got some experience. You jumped out into the workforce. And after a period of time, something went through your head. There was some inkling that made you just say to yourself, you know what? I think it's time. It's time to continue my education and move into a graduate degree. Talk to me about that thought process and what made you decide that you wanted to get a graduate degree?

Robb King [00:02:47]: For a long time after I got my bachelor's degree many years ago, 1990. Like you said, I did jump right into the workforce. Right out of college, I worked as a sports reporter at The Flint Journal, which continued my endeavors into writing, which I had done on campus as a reporter for the Michigan Times, spent all 4 years that I was on campus at the student paper. But it was always in the back of my head very early on that I wanted to do more with my education, and I think that was a combination of both, in addition to the paper, I had an on campus job. I liked the idea of being in higher ed. I knew that at some point, that's where I wanted to be as far as joining ultimately being in the workforce because there had been so many people on campus, whether it was the legendary, that's how I like to refer to him, Charles Apple, who was the head of the comms department during my time there and was also my advisor, whether it was him or Mary Jo Sokolsky, there were so many people that affected my life and my education in those 4 years that I was on the Flint campus that really pushed me to be the best version of myself that I was able to be at that time, that I knew that getting back into higher education is ultimately what I wanted to do because I thought, if all those people had such an effect on my life and made such a difference for me and were able to push me where I needed to go to do what I'm able to do, if I could come back regardless of whether it was working here at my alma mater or wherever at Kent State or, as you know, I spent 7 years at Slippery Rock University to be able to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my ten year at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back. So I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education. But at the same time, when you get out with your bachelor's degree, you're 22 years old and you want to make money and you want to strike out on your own, and then life starts happening and things get in the way.

Robb King [00:04:46]: Over the course of time, you end up being a partner and being a father and I had a wife, I had 2 girls. Those responsibilities, work responsibilities, it just got put on the back burner. Then when eventually I did get into higher ed doing marketing and communications for one of Kent State's regional campuses, been there about a year, and that's really when I thought about, okay, I'm in a place now where my kids were older, things were kind of settled, had a good routine, and quite frankly, the opportunity to be able to take advantage of educational credits with tuition assistance from my employer made it even more palatable and kind of a no brainer not to do it. So I did decide to pursue my master's degree in public relations, which had been my field for the bulk of my professional career, so it just made sense to continue down that path. And the funny thing is is then when I got to the end of that road, which was 2 years of constant study, I get to the end of the road and the head of the program comes back to me the week after we conclude. He's like, okay. When did you start your doctorate? And I was like, nope. I'm good.

Robb King [00:05:53]: I'm good. Have my master's degree. I'm fine. We'll go from there and see where that takes me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:58]: It is definitely a continuum, and you are going to, as you go through that process, I mean, you have to figure out for yourself which direction you wanna go. You kind of talked about the fact that you were out before you came back, there is going to be a transition, a transition that you're going to go through to be able to be able to be successful in the program. So talk to me about what you had to do to be able to make that transition back into education and what you had to do to be able to not only set yourself up for success, but what you had to do to be able to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Robb King [00:06:46]: From graduating with my bachelor's until I started the master's program was roughly like a 20 year gap. So being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers. It was easy to get back into that rhythm to a degree because working in public relations, you're usually researching for stories and then you're writing your texts. So, doing that part was easy, but it was still about getting into that that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow. It's really about becoming a student again. You learn different things as a professional day to day to help you do your jobs better, but I think learning as a student versus learning as a professional are 2 entirely different things and 2 different mindsets related, but different. So, it was about even though everything was online, I'll use the term getting back into that classroom mentality. And you know what? 20 years later, it was the same thing.

Robb King [00:08:00]: I would look at the syllabus and go, how many chapters do I have to read this week? So, a lot of that stuff still hangs around. But I think with anything, it's keeping your eye on the prize and what you wanna do. I think that my my undergrad degree had taken me as far as it could. I mean, I had a wealth and decades of experience behind me, which helped me advance even without an advanced degree, but I knew that if I wanted to lead a group of people in higher ed and take the reins of a marketing and communications department and be the one to foster the change and lead the charge, so to speak, that I was going to need that because job descriptions were constantly having bachelor's degree required, but master's preferred. Well, to me, master's preferred means if you don't have it, we're probably not going to consider you as strongly as we do somebody that does. So I knew that to take that next step and to be an executive director or a chief officer in the communications and marketing department, I was going to take need to take that next step for myself dedication and wherewithal to make that commitment to not only myself and my education but to whatever institution that I was working for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:21]: Now I know I said that you were working in public relations. Your master's is in public relations. Now you could have studied in a lot of different areas and there's a lot of different sub components to a communication degree. You chose to continue on in public relations type of work. Talk to me about that decision and the thought process behind whether you would stay like you did in selecting public relations as the field of study versus probably could have done something else. You could have got an MBA. You could have got another kind of type of communication degree. So talk to me about the choice of a public relations degree and what was going through your head and why you chose to stay in that area, and then why you chose Kent State as the ultimate place to stay versus other institutions where you could have gotten other types of programs or other opportunities?

Robb King [00:10:14]: Well, for me, before getting into higher ed, public relations was always at the center of it. When I was at Flint, like I said earlier, I spent 4 years on staff at the Michigan Times going from a student writer to an associate editor to the editor of the paper. But while I was doing that, I was also working in the student, what back then was the student entertainment office working on events. I did a internship with the then Flint Spirits, which was the old International Hockey League team in town, and did 2 semesters for credit and ended up spending another 3 seasons with the team as an unpaid intern working in PR and marketing. And at the minor league level, your staffs are always small, so you do wear a lot of hats. So it's not just writing press releases. It's writing press releases. It's making arrangements for public appearances.

Robb King [00:11:02]: It's putting together ad copy for the radio and for TV. So you get all that exposure. So there are, as you noted, different areas where you could when you wanna continue your education that you can choose to focus on. I chose to stay, and I could have done MBA or I could have done a marketing concentration. Concentration. But the reason that I chose to stay in in public relations is because at the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller. And that goes back to being a writer for my high high and that goes back to being a writer for my high school paper in Swartz Creek as I've always enjoyed sharing other people's stories with the masses. And even, I spent 16 seasons in minor league sports, But even when you're in that field, you're sharing stories through press releases and through magazine stories or connecting your beat writer with your with your captain who had a 7 point night in a hockey game and has hit a milestone. There's always that storyteller center was always there for me. So that's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together. So that's that's really why I chose to concentrate on that versus veering off into marketing or an MBA or something of that nature, which isn't to say anything against those concentrations. But that's all areas that I worked in along the way and felt good enough about those, which isn't say I didn't feel good enough about my PR stuff. I did.

Robb King [00:12:35]: That was just the area that I gravitated towards because I am a storyteller. And the reason I chose Kent, if I'm just being honest, it's because they were my employer and I had a tuition waiver. So, that made it a lot more palatable financially to be able to continue because the only thing that I had to pay for every semester was I had like a $7.49 legal fee charge that every grad student had to pay. So you know what? For $7.49 a semester, I'll earn that master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Definitely. There's no issue there. So I guess one of the things that I guess that I am interested in is that you took that degree and you did take advantage of being able to move on, move up, and move out from Kent State after finishing that degree a little bit after that. And as you said, you moved to slippery rock to be their chief communication officer, ultimately, and then now being the director of marketing and communications at the University of Michigan Flint. As you think back to the education that you got in your bachelor's degree, your master's degree, talk to me about how you feel that that graduate education prepared you for those next steps and beyond that you're doing now, and how do you see yourself using that education on a daily basis?

Robb King [00:14:02]: In pursuing the master's degree, it really, for me, having all those years in the field prior, reading the texts and doing the assignments was kinda like a great refresher course for me during that time because as I was reading case studies or white papers, I'm reading this material, and I'm relating it to things that have happened to me during the 20 years prior and instances or situations that I've encountered, and and I'm drawing parallels, and it's reinforcing in me decisions that I made that were correct or decisions that I made that were not the best choice at the time, but was able to use them as learning opportunities. So I felt that in doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that, one, that I had made the right career choice and that it also said to me, okay, here are these situations which are very similar to things that I had encountered and that most of the time in reading texts from experts in the field that I had made the right decisions. And it was kind of it was a neat thing to be able to relate my own personal experiences to what I was reading in my assignments and going, okay, wow, you know what? I was doing the right thing all along and I made the right choices for me and my crew and my employer. And in those instances that I that I didn't, I was being provided with the tools to allow me to have a different thought process when I was presented with those situations moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:41]: Now this show is all about success and helping individuals no matter what kind of degree that they're inter interested in find success in that graduate school journey. As you think back to your own graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to another student, another person thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Robb King [00:16:03]: I think ultimately you have to be once once you've made that decision that that's something that you're going to pursue, I think it's like anything else that you're trying for the first time. You may waffle. You may the pendulum's gonna swing back and forth on, do I really wanna do this? Do I have the time to commit to it? How is it going to affect my family life? What do I do when I'm in a time crunch? How do I prioritize? But it's like anything else. If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with with both feet and go after it. It's like anything else. It's like pursuing a promotion or a salary increase or anything else in life that you encounter. If you want it, go for it. You're gonna stumble along the way.

Robb King [00:16:46]: Everybody does. It's okay to make mistakes. And I know that those are all cliches and everybody says them, but they're cliches because they're accurate. You are gonna stumble. You are gonna make mistakes. You may upset someone because you can't do x or you can't go to y because you have to set aside that time for yourself to study. But you have to remember that at the end of the day, yeah, going out for dinner would be fun, but improving yourself, improving your mindset, improving your career is going to do so much more, not only for yourself but for those around you. And if you're in a field where it can also help make a difference for others and for your community, what's a better choice in that moment? And at the end of the day, to earn a master's degree in most in most cases, it's 2 years out of your life, which really is not that big of a commitment overall in the big scheme of things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Rob, thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for being willing to help others in the journey that they're on, and I truly wish you all the best.

Robb King [00:17:52]: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. It was good to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:54]: The University of Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school is a significant decision that involves careful planning, research, and a readiness to meet new challenges. On the latest episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis hosts Brenna Dressler, a graduate of Saginaw Valley State University and the University of Michigan Flint, who shares her experiences and wisdom on navigating this important transition. Let's dive into the valuable insights and strategies discussed during the episode.

Understanding the Decision to Pursue Graduate School: Initial Interests and Realizations

Brenna initially planned to enter the field of occupational therapy but found that the rigorous anatomy and physiology courses were not her forte. This realization prompted her to explore other avenues, and she discovered public health through her mentor professor, Dr. Megan Ruth. Intrigued by the possibilities of helping people in a broader context, Brenna shifted her focus to public health, laying the groundwork for her future educational and career choices.

"I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity... I went back home and I did some research on it... It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me." - Brenna Dressler

Researching and Choosing the Right Graduate Program: Criteria and Decision-Making Process

Selecting the right graduate program can be daunting, but Brenna's systematic approach made it manageable. She emphasized the importance of creating an organized list of criteria that mattered most, such as cost, location, and scholarship opportunities. Brenna's research led her to attend an informational session at the University of Michigan Flint, where she felt a positive connection with the faculty and the campus environment. "I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me... I was looking for scholarship opportunities... I just really liked the environment." - Brenna Dressler Specialization and Fit Brenna also underscored the importance of aligning the program with her specific interests within public health. For example, she considered a specialized program in maternal and child health before ultimately deciding on Michigan Flint's more general public health program accommodating her broader interests.

"It helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized." - Brenna Dressler

Setting Up for Success in Graduate School: Initial Steps and Organization

Once deciding on the University of Michigan Flint, Brenna's next step was to meet with her advisor, Dr. Solly, to map out her course of study for the next few years. This early planning and staying organized with schedules and supplies set a solid foundation for her academic journey. "My first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like... Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success." - Brenna Dressler

Balancing Involvement and Academics

Brenna's experience highlighted the importance of balancing academic responsibilities with extracurricular involvement. She actively participated in student organizations, study abroad programs, and built a strong support network, all while maintaining discipline in her studies.

"I went to Africa. So I got involved in a lot... It helps to... have a support system in place to lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day." - Brenna Dressler

Applying Graduate Skills in the Professional World: Career Progression and Application of Skills

Brenna's graduate education significantly influenced her career trajectory. Her involvement in research during both undergraduate and graduate studies equipped her with the skills necessary for her role as a clinical research technician and later as a project specialist. The connections she made and maintained with her professors also played a significant role in her career advancement.

"As far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections... They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs... that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection." - Brenna Dressler

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students: Key Recommendations

Brenna offers several practical tips for prospective graduate students:

1. Reach Out to Faculty: Contacting staff or faculty members at potential schools can provide valuable insights into the programs' alignment with your career goals.
2. Engage with Current or Past Students: Understanding the student perspective can offer a clearer picture of the program experience.
3. Research Thoroughly: Make sure the program fits your professional aspirations and personal circumstances through comprehensive research.

"I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at... reach out to students that have already gone through the program." - Brenna Dressler

Graduate school is a rewarding but challenging journey. By thoroughly researching programs, planning meticulously, staying disciplined, and leveraging connections, students can set themselves up for success. Brenna Dressler's story is a testament to how deliberate and informed decisions can lead to fulfilling educational and professional outcomes.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on a journey with you, being on a journey that is working side by side to walk alongside you as you're looking at graduate school. And I say a journey because it is a journey. And every person that considers graduate school is on a journey that is individual as themselves. And you have to go through it to be able to not only prepare yourself for making that transition into grad school, but then you have to go through it to be able to get through graduate school as well because sometimes there are things that you have to overcome as you go through those experiences as well. But along the way, you can learn from so many people that have gone before you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: And that's what this show is all about. The show is here to help you, to give you some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to learn from others that have done graduate school before you, and to open your eyes to some of the things that you might need to be thinking about or want to be thinking about as you think about graduate school as well. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests that have done graduate school in the past, that have gone to graduate school in the past, and can share that journey with you as well. And today we got another great guest with us today. Brenna Dressler is with us today. And Brenna did her undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University, but then decided after a short period of time out from Saginaw Valley to go back to graduate school and to get her master's degree in public health from the University of Michigan, Flint. So we're gonna be talking to her, learning a little bit more about her own journey, and allowing for her to share some of the things that she learned along the way to help you in your journey as well. Brenna, thanks so much for being here today.

Brenna Dressler [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to chat with you about the experiences that you've had. And one of the first things that I love being able to do is to turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work back at Saginaw Valley State University a few years back. And sometime during that time that you were either going through your undergraduate work or in those early years of being out in the workforce, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education and get a degree in a little bit different area from where you were in your undergraduate work, where you got your bachelor of science with minors in gerontology and management, a kind of a health science degree and public health too. But talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Brenna Dressler [00:02:52]: Yeah. So I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity. So originally, I went to Saginaw Valley thinking I was gonna go through the occupational therapy program. I quickly realized after going through more anatomy and physiology classes, That just wasn't my forte. It just didn't really stick with me. I found it very difficult. So I went back to my advisor, doctor Megan Ruth, who is a great mentor of mine, and she told me about this idea called public health that I had never heard about. It sounded very interesting.

Brenna Dressler [00:03:28]: I went back home and I did some research on it. And actually at the time, Saginaw Valley didn't have a direct bachelor's of public health degree. It was a bachelor's of health science, but I took mostly public health courses. So it's essentially a public health bachelor's degree. So yeah. I quickly realized that this sounded like something I would really enjoy. I like working with people. It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me.

Brenna Dressler [00:03:58]: Along the way, like you said, I found out about a gerontology minor and a management minor just to kinda diversify myself. I still haven't really used either of those minors, but education is good no matter what though. And then, obviously, through my research, when I found out about public health, I found out that there is a graduate program as well. I quickly became very interested in that because I kind of already assumed that I was gonna be going into a graduate program of some sort because OT was a graduate program. So then from there, just started my research on different programs and different options and fell across U of M Flint's program. So that's kinda how it evolved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So talk to me about that research process that you went through because you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, but there are many different programs that are out there. And as you said, you did your research and you identified and and looked at specific things that you were looking for. Talk to me about what you were looking for, what you kind of explored in that research, and what made you decide to ultimately attend the University of Michigan Flint?

Brenna Dressler [00:05:01]: So I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me. I looked in state and out of state. I applied to a few out of state programs. I was looking for scholarship opportunities, things like that. And ultimately, I ended up coming down to U of M Flint for one of their informational sessions and met a few of the professors and things like that and just really liked the environment when I did come down for that info session. I don't know. It just felt comfortable there.

Brenna Dressler [00:05:33]: It felt kind of similar to Saginaw Valley. Saginaw Valley is a smaller university. Growing up, I always went to smaller schools with less students in classrooms. So that was really important to me to kind of have a more individualized experience. And it just felt like U of M Flint really kind of fit fit the bill for me. It's also close to home and my mom has some health issues so it was important for me to be around to help out when I needed to. Saved me a ton of money while still getting the U of M diploma. So that was kind of my process with that.

Brenna Dressler [00:06:05]: As far as, like, finding out about other programs, it was pretty easy to just Google and find out. I think there was a program out in Colorado that I was looking at that was maternal and child health focused, which is where I thought I was gonna end up. I really like that area of public health. So it helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: So as you made that final decision, you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint, you made that transition into graduate school. It is very clear that the way you're educated in undergrad is different than the way you're being educated in grad school. The expectations are different as well. So talk to me about what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned in, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Brenna Dressler [00:06:56]: So one of the first things that I did was met with my advisor, who's doctor Solly, who I love dearly. She's done so much for me, and I credit her for a lot of my success in the program and in my career. So my first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like. I think right off the bat, she could tell that I was a very motivated and great student, which I hope she would say that today if you talk to her. But so that was my first step. Next was just, like I said, kind of planning out the next couple of years. I'm a very organized person, so knowing what's to come was really important for me. Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success.

Brenna Dressler [00:07:43]: I think discipline is really important because sometimes when you're going to grad school and also working and trying to have a life outside of it, it can be kind of hard. So making sure that you stay disciplined and produce good work is really important. Also, just finding kind of either a group or a partner that can lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day, you know, or have a bad exam in the program, things like that. I think that's really important to latch on to a couple people that you really enjoy and, because you're gonna be with those people through the entire program. That really helped me as well. Also getting involved in student groups. I was president of a student organization. I got involved in study abroad.

Brenna Dressler [00:08:27]: I went to Africa. So I got involved in in a lot. And like I said, the discipline was really important because there's times that I wanted to do something more fun, but I had an epidemiology exam the next day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:38]: You definitely have to balance those things, and you have to look at all of the opportunities that avail themselves to you. But then take advantage of what you can take advantage of because sometimes students may think about what how involved they were as undergraduate students. And then as they get into grad school, they have to temper that a little bit, or they have to add some things in because it's an involvement turns involvement means something a little bit different in grad school. And a lot of times, what I see with students is that involvement revolves a lot around the profession itself. And in thus, versus in undergrad, it might not be as profession related, but there's lots of other opportunities to get involved. So I completely agree with you. Get involved. Find ways to get involved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:23]: You know, and and even if you're doing an online program, find ways to get involved and and be able to make those connections, network, etcetera. Now that you've completed your degree, you are now out in the workforce. You have been out in the workforce for a bit of time. You are a clinical research technician with Michigan Medicine, also an adjunct faculty member at Saginaw Valley State University. So talk to me about, now that you've been out in your career for a bit and you're utilizing your degree on a regular basis, Talk to me about how that graduate degree really prepared you for these next steps that you took in your professional career.

Brenna Dressler [00:10:02]: Sure. So actually, I have a different role right now. So the clinical research technician, I think that was about a year ago that I had that one. So the current role that I have is a project specialist with a quality improvement program at University of Michigan. But the research role was really pivotal in getting this position for me. I did research in both undergrad and grad school with professors, and I think that really gave me some great experience, hands on experience with research and presenting papers and posters and things at national conferences and just understanding the the how to perform research and write papers and things like that. I think that really was helpful in me getting the clinical research technician position, which was working on the COVID vaccine trials. So I did that position for about 2 years working from home.

Brenna Dressler [00:10:52]: And then while in that position, I was able to make the connection with the program director of my current role. And she knew that I had my master's of public health and knew that I was a great worker and smart and could pick things up pretty quickly. So she kind of offered the job to me knowing that this program was gonna start in a year or so. But as far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections. I think doctor Sully helped me a lot with applying for jobs and looking for jobs. I always stress to my students, which I teach at Saginaw Valley and at Ferris now, I always stress to them the importance of mentorship and making that connection with a professor that you really enjoy working with or things like that. And that's really got me really far is keeping those connections with my professors. They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs, for this and that, and that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection.

Brenna Dressler [00:11:50]: Another thing was the organization of just keeping my schedule and being disciplined and things like that because I do currently work from home still. And so it's very easy to get distracted by laundry and dishes and things at home. So making sure I have that discipline to get my job done is really important. Obviously, the coursework has really played a a strong role in what I do. I currently manage a lot of the health education aspects of the program that I work for, and that's what my master's of public health was in, was in health education. So I use a lot of the health communications models and things like that. Yeah. I can't say more about how the coursework has helped me in my current role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:31]: So as you think back to your graduate education and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going into a public health degree or some other degree that's out there. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them to find success sooner?

Brenna Dressler [00:12:50]: I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at. Just send them a quick email and just introduce yourself and say, this is what I'm interested in. This is where I see myself in 5 years. Do you think this program would really fit my needs and my interests for my career? I think that's a great start. It also gives you that connection off the bat if you do decide to go to that university. Another thing would be reaching out to students that have already gone through the program. So you can find them on LinkedIn or maybe they have a blog post on the university's website that you can find an email address. I think really talking to the students gives you a great idea of what the program is like, from their perspective.

Brenna Dressler [00:13:31]: I think that's always a great option. Just do your research about the university, about the program, making sure that it aligns with your goals and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: Well, Brenda, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for being here, and for and for doing what you're doing now to be able to help others in our community through that public health degree. And I truly wish you all the best.

Brenna Dressler [00:13:54]: Thank you. It was great to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Welcome to "Victors in Grad School," a podcast where we engage in enlightening conversations with students, alumni, and experts to uncover what it takes to excel in graduate school. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the podcast is a valuable resource for anyone contemplating, currently enrolled in, or nearing the completion of their graduate studies. In a recent episode, Dr. Lewis had the pleasure of hosting Kayla Bueby, a Clinical Assistant Professor and Practicum Education Coordinator at the University of Michigan Flint. Kayla shared her transformative journey through various stages of her academic career, from her Bachelor's in Social Work (BSW) to her Master's in Social Work (MSW), and even a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration.

Understanding the Importance of Graduate Education

Graduate education is often a journey filled with numerous transitions and challenges. These changes could range from shifts in self-perception to evolving learning methodologies. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that graduate school is a unique journey that requires comprehensive preparation to ensure success. The goal of the podcast is to aid students at various stages of their graduate education by bringing in guests who have successfully navigated this journey and are willing to share their wisdom.

The Initial Transition: From BSW to MSW

Kayla Bueby began her academic climb at Saginaw Valley State University, where she earned her BSW. She then transitioned to Michigan State University for her MSW. When asked about the motives behind her decision to pursue an MSW, Kayla mentioned the defining role her undergraduate faculty played. They provided her with clarity about the importance of advanced degrees in the field of social work, especially for those aiming to become mental health therapists. She knew that a master's degree was a crucial stepping stone to achieving her career goals, and this understanding came early in her bachelor's program, largely due to the guidance she received from her mentors.

Navigating Graduate School Choices

Choosing a graduate school is no small feat, and Kayla conducted rigorous research to identify the best MSW programs available. She acknowledged the pivotal role that professional organizations like the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) played in her search process. By joining NASW as a student member, she gained access to a wealth of resources, continuing education opportunities, and crucial insights into the hot topics and future directions in the field of social work. This experience was instrumental in her decision to attend Michigan State University, which offered a specialized trauma-informed care certificate as part of their MSW program.

The Unexpected Yet Beneficial Addition of Business Knowledge In a fascinating twist, Kayla didn't stop at her MSW. She ventured into the realm of business by earning a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration and Management. Initially intrigued by the possibility of blending social work with business, she aimed for an MBA but settled on the certificate after realizing that her strengths did not align perfectly with certain business courses like accounting. Despite these challenges, the experience was invaluable, and the knowledge she gained has continued to benefit her career.

Coping with the Realities of Graduate Life

As someone who has worked extensively with both undergraduate and graduate students, Kayla shared valuable insights into coping with the multifaceted challenges of graduate life. Time management, she pointed out, is a universal stressor among graduate students who often juggle school, work, and personal responsibilities. She advocated for a customized approach to time management, highlighting the importance of finding what works best for an individual's unique circumstances.

Kayla also stressed the importance of leveraging available resources for mental health support. For instance, institutions like the University of Michigan Flint offer free counseling and psychological services to students, including remote options. Utilizing these resources can make a substantial difference in a student's overall well-being and academic performance.

Transitioning to a Faculty Role: A Full-Circle Moment

Kayla's journey came full circle as she transitioned from an administrative role to a faculty position. She is particularly excited about the launch of the new MSW program at the University of Michigan Flint. Having transitioned multiple times herself, she now aims to be the empathetic, knowledgeable guide for her students that she once sought in her mentors. She hopes to provide her students with the skills and empathy needed to navigate the complexities of real-world social work.

Final Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

In wrapping up, Kayla shared some critical advice for those considering graduate education: "Start with the end in mind." It's essential to have a clear understanding of your career goals and to ensure that the graduate program you choose aligns well with those objectives. Don't hesitate to reach out to faculty, program directors, and current students to gather as much information as possible. This proactive approach can help ensure that you make informed decisions that will set you on the path to a rewarding professional life.

Graduate school is a demanding but incredibly rewarding journey. By leveraging the experiences and insights of those who have successfully navigated this path, like Kayla Bueby, future students can better prepare themselves for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

For more insights and tips on navigating graduate education, tune into "Victors in Grad School" and embark on your own journey to success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week as always, we are on a journey together. I say that every week, but it's so true that you are thinking about graduate school. You're here because you're thinking about graduate school, And you might be just at that first inkling where you think, maybe I need to continue my education. You might be in graduate school, or you might be looking at the light at the end of the tunnel where you're saying, I'm almost done. Almost ready for taking this graduate education to the next step and moving into a new career area or expanding in the current career that you're in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And as you go through this graduate school experience, you're going to be going through a lot of changes, a lot of changes in yourself, changes in the way that you learn, changes in the way that you are looking at yourself as an employee, as a student, as a individual. So it's really important that you do what you can to prepare yourself, to prepare yourself for the work that you're going to be doing throughout your graduate school journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find ways in which you can find success in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that can help you do just that. And I love being able to bring you these different people that have had these different experiences because they have gone before you. They have gone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: They have gotten a graduate degree. They've been successful, and they're sharing that experience with you today. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Kayla Bubi is with us today, and Kayla is a clinical assistant professor for our b for the BSW and MSW programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also the practicum education coordinator for those programs as well. We're gonna be talking to her about her own experience going through graduate school herself and learning along the way. Really excited to have her here. Kayla, thanks so much for being here.

Kayla Bueby [00:02:22]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I love being able to bring people in to be able to talk about their different experiences, to share those experiences and help people along the way. 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I wanna go back a few years. I wanna go back because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University where you got your BSW, your bachelor of social work. And after that, you went on to get an MSW, a master of social work at Michigan State University. So let's first talk about that first transition. And I would love to kind of go into your mind and say to yourself, Kate, what were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue on in getting going from the BSW to the MSW?

Kayla Bueby [00:03:07]: Yeah. That's a great question. My my BSW experience at Saginaw Valley was wonderful. And in that program, I learned so much about the particulars of each of the degrees. So in certain professions, your degree means a lot in terms of what you're able to do. And in social work, that's very true. So I had the goal of becoming a mental health therapist and becoming a clinician, and I knew I needed to achieve a master's degree and earn a master's degree in order to do that. And I had wonderful faculty that helped me understand that path and prepare me for what was next so that I knew very early on in my bachelor's degree program that that was the direction that I was heading in.

Kayla Bueby [00:03:48]: That was incredibly helpful. So in a social work degree program, the job that you want to do has a ton of bearing on what level of degree you need, and that was made so clear to me early on, and I really appreciated that. So that's how I ended up knowing that I wanted to continue on with my master's degree education very early on in my bachelor's education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: As you learn that and you were talking to your faculty mentors or advisors or others that were saying to you, okay, you wanna do this, you've gotta get this. As you were starting to prepare for that next step, as you were going through that BSW, I'm sure you had to start doing some type of, let's say, reconnaissance, some type of research to be able to look at the myriad of different MSW programs that were out there. And there are quite a few in the state of Michigan, but there's also many others across the nation. And I'm sure you had many opportunities. You could have gone to almost any school that you had wanted to. You chose to go to Michigan State University. Talk to me about that decision making process, that research that you did for yourself. And why did you ultimately decide to attend Michigan State University?

Kayla Bueby [00:05:00]: Knowing early on in my BSW program that I was interested in pursuing an MSW was a monumental help in that regard. 1 of the from a social work perspective, one of the most impactful things that I did was got connected to my professional membership organization, which in our profession is NASW or the National Association of Social Workers, specifically the Michigan chapter, and became a student member. They offered some really wonderful student member rate, and that got me connected to the practice professional community in a way that I had not been connected to before. They also offered free or reduced cost continuing education offerings and trainings that I was able to take part in as a student. And when I did that, I got to know what the hot topics in the profession were, where was our field heading, what did I need to know about in order to be prepared to not only apply to grad school, but be successful in grad school, and then ultimately be successful as a professional? And one of the things at the time, and certainly now still, that kept coming up was trauma informed care. So I became very interested in trauma informed care, and that was something that was on my mind as I was looking for graduate programs. On a personal note, I had always wanted to attend Michigan State University, so they were already very high on my list. But they also had a trauma informed care certificate program that I was able to take part in and was able to leave my graduate program with this additional certificate that has assisted me in my career ever since.

Kayla Bueby [00:06:31]: So that was a huge part of that was understanding where your field currently is as a profession, what are the hot topics, what are the latest and greatest evidence based approaches that you should know about as a student, and aligning that with a program that was able to prepare me in that way throughout my master's program to walk into the profession, already a step ahead or maybe 2 steps ahead of some of the other graduates in my field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: You just talked about the fact that you learned a lot of those pieces, the hot topics and things that were really important for someone going into the field to know by being a student member of the National Association. There's a number of national associations that are out there for a lot of different career areas. Talk to me about how did you get involved in that national association, and what would you recommend to students that are going into a graduate program to do as they look at national associations, statewide associations, things that are out there that they might be able to find involvement in as well.

Kayla Bueby [00:07:34]: I became aware of NASW and, to some extent, involved in it because my faculty members spoke so highly of that professional organization. They were truly mentors to me throughout the entire bachelor's degree process. And their feedback and their experiences with the association were something that were that was very helpful for me to understand. And then they created opportunities, sometimes extracurricularly, but also sometimes within our curriculum, in order for the students to get connected to that particular particular organization. So for NASW, for instance, there's an annual legislative advocacy day that students are always welcome to attend, where we're able to go to Lansing and talk to legislators about social work specific policies that are being made or being proposed. So those were wonderful ways for me to get connected. As I mentioned, they also had a a discounted student rate, which made it more affordable for me as a student who is living on a very limited income And many professional organizations offer something similar to make that more accessible to folks who are spending lots of money already on their education, books, and everything else that they might have going on. So I would definitely encourage students to ask faculty what professional organizations are they familiar with, have they found value in, are they members of where social work is pretty cut and dry.

Kayla Bueby [00:08:56]: NASW is our ultimate professional association, but some professions may have multiple. And so it's worth asking your faculty what they might recommend or what their experiences have been with those organizations if there are multiple.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:10]: Now I know that you ended up getting another degree outside of the BSW and the MSW, and that was a postgraduate business certificate in business administration and management. And a very different area of study in comparison to what you study for your bachelor's and master's. And for those of you that don't know, a graduate certificate tends to be a core group of courses that you take in a specific targeted area. It might be 9 credits. It might be 12 credits. You know, it's a specific number of courses in that targeted area. So as I mentioned, Kayla, you decided to get a certificate in business administration and management. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to focus and get a different type of experience in this way?

Kayla Bueby [00:09:59]: Yeah. I think talking about the trauma informed care and trauma informed perspectives that I was interested in early on I also knew that early on I was very interested in management, administration, and leadership within the social work profession as well. As a staff member at the University of Michigan Flint at the time, I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. And I decided I wanted to initially explore an MBA. And joint MSW and MBA degrees are not uncommon. They weren't back then, and they aren't uncommon now, because a lot of social workers do end up in process, and so I ended up ending that my time with that program a little bit early, but was able to complete that post master's certificate. Although not knowledge from those courses that I was able to take, and the faculty were wonderful. I will be the 1st person to say I am not the strongest when it comes to accounting, when it comes to the books, when it comes to the number side of business administration. And countless times when I had questions, faculty were a if I had something that I needed in order to be successful.

Kayla Bueby [00:11:29]: So I really appreciated my time in that program, and it's continued years later to serve me very well. And I appreciate the opportunity that I was afforded to be able to access that education as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:41]: Now with your bachelor's to master's, your master's to certificate to certificate, there's always transitions when you enter into different programs. How you were taught in your MSW is gonna be different than how you were taught in your business classes, And you have to be able to maneuver and manage those transitions to be successful in graduate school itself. So what did you have to do in each of those degree settings to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that journey through those different programs?

Kayla Bueby [00:12:14]: There are big differences between each of those programs. And one of the things that I wish I would have maybe done differently or been a little bit stronger in doing was understanding that there was no way that I could know before I started those programs exactly what the differences would have been. And I held myself to the standard, this very standard of having to know what it was gonna be like before I even experienced it. That caused me a lot of stress. It caused a lot of anxiety, and it caused a lot of confusion for me. Whereas if I would have taken the learner approach and said, you know what? I can't possibly know what this is gonna be like, and that's okay. I'm not supposed to know. I'm supposed to learn what this is going to be.

Kayla Bueby [00:12:56]: I think that would have left me open to learning more about what the experience really would be like instead of what I thought it might be like. And in all of those circumstances, as you mentioned, it was a very different experience. The thing that I did to sustain was ask questions because I realized that especially when you continue on to a graduate level education, professors are incredibly invested in your success, or at least that was my experience, especially at U of M Flint. And I they wanted me to ask questions. They were interested in the questions that I had. There was no silly question to them, especially as somebody coming from a different discipline into the business side of things in particular. I had many questions. How what is the culture of this type of profession? How are things typically done? What parallels might I be able to find between the 2? And they were very interested in discussing that.

Kayla Bueby [00:13:51]: And there are times where, especially even with an MSW degree, you don't necessarily have to have a bachelor's degree to go into that. And so there are plenty of graduate programs where you don't necessarily need to have one particular degree to go into that advanced level degree, and you might find yourself in a similar situation where you're trying to find the parallels. You're you're trying to see how those two worlds blend together, and I strongly recommend leaning on faculty members and your peers maybe who have some experience to really help you integrate your knowledge, which is valuable, into one cohesive educational experience. It's difficult. So understanding that it's going to be a process and that you're not gonna know everything early on, and that that's okay, is a big mindset shift that, as I mentioned, I wish I would have adopted a little bit earlier in my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: Now I know that you said that going into the MSW, you were interested in trauma informed care. And pretty quickly after getting that MSW, you transitioned into some working in higher education after doing some community based type of work as well. But a lot of your career has really been focused in on working in higher education and working with students. So you have an interesting perspective in that regard of being able to work with students in many different aspects, graduate students, undergraduate students. I would love your perspective, especially with the fact that for a number of years, you worked in the counseling in the counseling area within a college environment and working with students in that capacity. Could you talk to me a little bit about what you learned along the way in working with, we'll say, graduate students in some of the big stressors, some of the things that they were learning with, and some of the things that you might have shared with them to help them to maneuver those situations to be able to come out stronger in the end?

Kayla Bueby [00:15:43]: Yeah. I think, by and large, one of the common threads with graduate students when I was working in the counseling office, that was a stressor for all of them was, I have a life outside of this. And not just a life, but I might have children. I might have family that I'm taking care of. I might have a full time job. I have a mortgage. I have car notes to pay. There's lots of life happening outside of graduate school, especially when we have students that are coming to us who have made who have already spent time achieving a bachelor's degree or 2 or 3.

Kayla Bueby [00:16:15]: And then they're also a a person first, and they're coming to us with this incredible amount of life experience. Even if they're right out of undergraduate, they still have more responsibilities, and their life is more complex than it was right out of high school. You can imagine how much more complex it gets if you're bringing somebody in who's maybe a decade, 2, or 3 removed from a bachelor's degree program. So navigating the complexities of managing time was a huge theme in those conversations. And I think while there are some general tips that can be helpful for everybody, what you have to remember is that those general tips weren't designed with you in mind specifically. You have to take those general tips, like having an organized system for managing your time, whether that's a physical planner, a Google Calendar, a Google Doc, whatever that might be for you. You have to make it work for your life. So one of the common things I talked about, especially with some of our students who had a long commute or maybe they had children and they were driving around quite a bit, was thinking about how do we make your learning more appropriate for your style.

Kayla Bueby [00:17:20]: So our audiobook's something we can we can switch to for you. And so that you have the opportunity to listen while you're driving and really double or triple dipping on the time that you already are using for something else. How can we make this a better experience for you? So really, I think taking the general advice of good time management, staying organized, studying on a regular basis, but making sure that you understand that it can't copy and paste. You have to make that tailored for your individual experience to make it worthwhile. And not everything's gonna work for you. That's okay. The goal is to find what does, And that takes some trial and error in the process. The other big piece of that too was, as a result of that high level of stress, it's a breeding ground for additional mental health concerns.

Kayla Bueby [00:18:05]: And so, when that happens, being able to access the resources that are available to you are incredibly, incredibly important, and knowing about what resources are available to you. So at the University of Michigan Flint, our counseling office, we refer to as CAPS, Counseling and Psychological Services, is completely free for all undergraduate and graduate students. And there are remote options available for connections. You do not have to be in the Flint community or the Genesee County area to connect in person with a licensed clinician. That is part of the package of you being a student here. It was something that at my respective institutions, both at the bachelor's and the master's level, I took advantage of as a student. It was incredibly helpful. So do not at all be afraid to ask for help.

Kayla Bueby [00:18:45]: Many of the students absolutely asking for help. But if you're somebody who's considering it, please know that it is absolutely okay. It is very much supported and it can make a huge difference in your educational career to get support for your mental health and well-being throughout.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: Great tips, and I really appreciate you sharing those. Now you've also transitioned now to working on the faculty side, and you've moved from being in an administrative role to now being in a fully educational role, being working with students that are in both the BSW and MSW programs. Talk to me about this transition for you and now what you're hoping to be able to do to be able to work with additional graduate students because you have a new MSW program that's starting this fall and what you hope to bring to those students.

Kayla Bueby [00:19:40]: Yeah. So, again, on my list of things I wanted to do was to teach one day. This is part of the reason I went into social work because there are so many different avenues for career exploration and different topics, different areas of work. So I'm so excited to have transitioned into this role and have such a passion for higher education. And this role, while it does involve instructional time, I'm predominantly administrative still and managing our practicum education program. So that strength really comes out in that regard and it's a great fit. I'm so excited about our MSW program coming. This is something that has been talked about for a long time.

Kayla Bueby [00:20:13]: We have a lot of graduates of our program that are very excited about it and members of our Flint community. I'm so excited to try to give our students at the MSW level, and really at every every level, but certainly at the MSW level, the information that I wish I would have had at that time. An empathic listening ear, a professor that feels and I did have some of this, but to continue to give them things like a professor that feels like a real person, a professor that understands and has real world clinical experience in the social and understands when we get those really gray situations that come up or a huge ethical dilemma that might be something we need to consider. And what do you do in that situation? There's a lot of hard questions in social work, and students need to feel like they have somebody within their program as a faculty member that they can talk to about that and feel comfortable not knowing and be feeling okay, being vulnerable enough to ask questions about that. So as an educator, I'm really hoping that that can that's something that shines through. That also is something I hope that shines through in our practicum education program as we really start to prepare students in their internship experience for what real life social work really looks like. Bringing the textbook to life, really putting students in situations to say, this is what it can be like day to day. How do we handle that? How do we make sure we're operating in an ethical manner? And how do we have really difficult conversations about things that might come up? In social work, in particular, it's not just the ethical dilemmas, it's not just other concerns in that regard, but the professional use of self and social work is huge.

Kayla Bueby [00:21:53]: And we all come to all of our professions with different biases, different perspectives, understandings of the world, and being able to self reflect is a huge piece of the social work process in becoming a professional. And if I can be part of that process for somebody and helping them self reflect without judgment or shame and helping them become a better professional in the future for the clients they'll serve, That ripple effect is something that I'm very much interested in being a part of, and I'm excited about preparing our students for just that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:23]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate school journey, what are some other tips that you might want to give to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Kayla Bueby [00:22:38]: With graduate education, you really have to start with the end in mind. And by that, I mean, get very serious and give some very honest thought to what you do with your career. And the reason I say that is because when you get into a graduate education space, oftentimes, the degree that you're looking for needs to align with that. I've heard stories, unfortunately, of students who have gone through multiple degree programs, including graduate degrees, and then realize, oh gosh. This did not prepare me in the way that I wanted to, or this isn't what I thought it was going to be. Do that research about what you want to do on a day to day basis long after you are out of school, And make sure that the programs that you are looking at will be able to support you in those endeavors. I would hate for anybody to be in a position where they didn't fully understand the career that they were looking to get into or didn't fully understand the requirements of achieving the career that they desperately wanted to be a part of. That is something that is so critical here.

Kayla Bueby [00:23:37]: I know that that, especially in the social work world, was a very real conversation that many of the students in my cohort and my peers had because oftentimes folks felt like they just had to get an MSW because everybody else was doing that. And the reality is is that some careers in social work do not require an MSW, and you'll be spending a lot of time, money, and energy getting a degree that you don't necessarily need. Now that being said, there are a lot of careers in the social work field that do require an MSW. And so you wanna be aware of being the social work profession and others, what do you need to get you where you need to be? And how do you then find a school that they can get that can give that to you? Do not be afraid to email those professors, those program directors ahead of time and say, this is what I'm looking for. How can your program prepare me for this? And make sure that you get some very honest answers from them, so that you can make the decisions that you need to make, to make sure that you get the career and the education that you're looking for and hoping for that will hopefully prepare you for the rest of your professional life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:39]: Well, Kayla, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Good luck on the start of the new MSW at U of M Flint, and I truly wish you all the best.

Kayla Bueby [00:24:50]: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

How Life's Transitions Lead to Personal Fulfillment and Professional Growth

Navigating through multiple career paths is a journey many professionals undergo. Tess Muhammad's story is no different. Starting her career as a chemist, Tess found her true calling in the field of nursing, specifically in mental health. In an enlightening conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis on the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Tess details her shift from chemistry to nursing, the challenges she faced, and the lessons learned along the way.

The First Transition: From Chemist to Nurse

Tess's shift from chemistry to nursing wasn't a decision made lightly. Although she enjoyed her career as a chemist, her passion for mental health grew from personal experiences with depression. In her quest for better mental health, Tess explored complementary therapies like Reiki, energy work, and traditional pharmacological treatments. This exploration guided her to nurture a deeper understanding of the human mind and its intricacies.

"Although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways." — Tess Muhammad

This profound interest sparked a career transition in her late thirties. Despite a secure position as a chemist, Tess enrolled in an accelerated nursing program at Oakland University. It was a leap driven by the desire to contribute to the world in a more fulfilling way.

From Working Nurse to Nursing Graduate Student

Building a career in inpatient behavioral health, Tess gained experience across various roles over a decade. However, the desire to delve deeper propelled her to pursue higher education. Encouraged by her peers and psychiatrists she worked with, she decided to attain her Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) degree.

"A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role." — Tess Muhammad

Facing the crossroads of choosing a graduate program, Tess initially enrolled at Wayne State University. However, the pandemic and personal loss made her reconsider her options. The need for a more flexible, supportive environment brought her to the University of Michigan, Flint.

Navigating Graduate School Transitions

Enrolling in a graduate program is a formidable challenge. Tess's experience was no different. The shift from Wayne State to the University of Michigan, Flint brought its own set of hurdles. The transition highlighted the importance of balancing health, work, and studies.

"A lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward." — Tess Muhammad

Tess emphasizes the necessity of maintaining one's health—physical, mental, and emotional—while undertaking graduate studies. She advocates for keeping a balanced life, incorporating regular exercise and personal time amidst academic rigors.

Applying Academic Learning to Professional Practice

The knowledge gained in graduate school isn't just theoretical for Tess. She finds immense value in applying her educational experiences to her professional work, especially in outpatient mental health settings. Learning new medications, communication techniques, and motivational interviewing has broadened her perspectives and improved patient interactions.

"Learning that in school has been very helpful in both environments…collaboration that I've been learning…is going to help me when I do practice." — Tess Muhammad

Tess's ability to translate academic learning to real-world practice showcases the integral role of higher education in enhancing professional capabilities.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Tess offers sage advice for those contemplating graduate school. Her key takeaway is the importance of seeking balance and ensuring personal well-being alongside academic pursuits. She urges students to prioritize health and embrace activities that bring joy and relaxation.

"Always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered." — Tess Muhammad

She also emphasizes the importance of openness and communication with faculty and program directors, especially when facing personal challenges.

Tess Muhammad's journey from chemistry to nursing and her ongoing pursuit of higher education exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and the quest for personal fulfillment. Her story serves as an inspiration to those navigating their own career transitions and contemplating the leap into graduate education. By prioritizing personal well-being and remaining adaptable, Tess shows us the way to uncovering a fulfilling professional path that truly aligns with one's passions.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey. And I always say journey every week. I know. And I tell you that it is a journey because it is a journey that you will be on as you are considering grad school, as you're in grad school, as you're preparing to complete grad school and move on into the next phase of your own career journey. And it's important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: It's important to be able to prepare yourself and prepare yourself well, to be able to know what's coming, but also to know what you can do to prepare yourself better, but also to get ready to find success, find success in that journey. And there are things that you can do from the very beginning to be able to capture that success and be able to write your own story while you're in graduate school. And that's what this show is all about. Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through those different experiences, had different opportunities provided to them, but they found success along the way. And today we got another great guest with us. Tess Mohammed is with us today. And Tess is a current student in the BSN to DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to have her on to talk about her journey through this program and her journey into this program and beyond.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: So really excited to be able to have her here and to have her share that journey with you. Tess, thanks so much for being here today.

Tess Muhammad [00:02:00]: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And you know, one of the things that I love doing as we start our conversations is really to turn the clock back in time, because I know that you have a couple of bachelor's degrees, and you did your first degree in chemistry from Michigan State University. And after that degree, you went off and you were a chemist for a while. And then at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to change tracks. You wanted to move in a different direction for your career and go into nursing. So you went and you got a second bachelor's degree in nursing. So take me back and talk to me about that first transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:48]: And I know it's not graduate school, but I want to understand that first. Talk to me about the journey from chemist to nurse. And what made you decide that that was the route that you were gonna go?

Tess Muhammad [00:03:00]: So although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways. Both pharmacological and also therapy. More complementary, therapy. So much more than talk therapy. A lot of energy type work and really got into it and fell in love with the idea of understanding the mind. Understanding how we work as human beings.

Tess Muhammad [00:03:32]: Understanding what things we do to ourselves that can cause us to not be in the best mental state that we can be. And so on the outside, I'm sure at the time I looked very put together from everyone else standpoint of view. You know, I'm a chemist and I'm making my own way. But internally, there was a disconnect. We'll put it like that. I wasn't fulfilled internally. So I delve into just self help, into mental health, and every aspect of it, and every sense of wholeness from exercise, from what you put in your body, from getting assistance at times from medications, energy work, massage. Everything that you can think of plus me trust me, Reiki, I I have explored it.

Tess Muhammad [00:04:15]: So that became the group that I hung out with outside of work was people that are into that. And so I knew going into nursing that I wanted to go into nursing, and I specifically wanted to go into behavioral health before I changed to nursing. Now at the time, I was, what people would probably say now, and it's not really late in age, but I was in my late thirties, early forties making this transition. And it was kind of difficult to be like, oh, do I really want to go back to school? I have a decent career now. But I came to the conclusion that I would be better service to the universe by becoming a nurse. So that's really what led me. It was, like, personal just journey for myself to be, like, I want to present and do what I love and what I have interest in, passion for. And so there it was.

Tess Muhammad [00:04:55]: I saw the accelerated program at Oakland University and was like, you know what? I think this will work. I don't live that far from there, and I went forward. And the next thing, you know, I was here I am as a nurse. And then been working in inpatient behavioral health, acute in various forms and positions for the last 10 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:13]: So over the last 10 years, you've gone through this career and you've built a career for yourself. And at some point during those 10 years, you had this spark. You had some inkling that you wanted to go further. You wanted to delve a little bit deeper. You wanted to continue your education. What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Tess Muhammad [00:05:34]: A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role. You're good at what you do on here on the floor, but we think that you're capable of it. So it just plugs Your years of working with my peers and the psychiatrist that I work with. And I started thinking about it, and I was like, okay. Maybe this is the full circle. Now I've learned being on the floor firsthand, acute.

Tess Muhammad [00:06:03]: Now getting older as well and being on the floor, it's not a good idea. Just put it like that. So I started entertaining it, and I also had peers that were also going to school at the time or in the process of about to graduate. And they were like, it's worth it. So I just went for it. Yeah. I was just like, okay. It's time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: And you did your first two degrees at 2 different institutions. And you ultimately decided that you wanted to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your BSN, the DNP program. There's a lot of DNP programs that are out there. What made you decide to attend the University of Michigan, Flint? What was going through your head as you were making that decision for yourself?

Tess Muhammad [00:06:49]: So I don't know if you know this part. I actually started off at Wayne State because a lot of my peers went I have other peers that went different places, but a few went to Wayne State. And I was like, okay. It's convenient. I'm not that far from there. And, so I started there. And, as we know, it's a brick and mortar. And at the time when I started, it was during the pandemic.

Tess Muhammad [00:07:11]: So we actually didn't have to come to class. But then, we had to come to class. Okay. So, that's not one of the only reasons that I left Wayne State. That was just part of the reason I realized the driving down, the sitting in class, it just I was working full time at the time. It just wasn't working out. And then I had some loss of mother, and emotionally I was gone. So, it was really more that that made me leave Wayne State was just like I wasn't mentally there.

Tess Muhammad [00:07:41]: And I've always promised myself I would put my mental health first over anything. You know, be the example. So I ended up leaving Wayne State. And then once I knew I was gonna go back. I wasn't sure when and then I started kind of exploring different programs and stumbled upon U of M's program and how they had it set up with you being able to go for your DNP, but also get your masters. And then it was online for the most part, asynchronous, some synchronous. And even I felt like I could go to the campus if I needed to go 3 or 4 times, it was still better than having to come, having to drive down, having to sit in a class. It was just you could do things a little bit on your own time.

Tess Muhammad [00:08:20]: And I felt like for my life, that was gonna work better. So I also knew a few people who went to undergrad at Flint, and they thought they loved the program. They're like, I'm telling you this, so you're gonna appreciate it so much more. So glad to you and Flint got in, and I I love it. Everything they said was, like, everything about it, I love. I feel like I'm supported. People respond to me quickly. I feel like I know what's going on.

Tess Muhammad [00:08:43]: I feel like it's organized. I know what's expected of me. I know what my program's gonna look like. I know when I'm gonna graduate. You know what I mean? Like, it everything's straightforward. So that's I'm glad I made that decision. I'm glad I'm okay with there being a hiccup because it led me here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: As you said, you started at Wayne State, then you made another transition. You transferred and and moved over to a brand new program at a brand new institution, different type of public learning and and different type of teaching styles because it's different faculty and a different focus. So talk to me a little bit about transitions. And as you there's a transition when you go from undergrad to grad, but you not only went from undergrad to grad at Wayne State, but then you've had a second transition of actually transitioning from one grad school to a completely different grad school. So talk to me about your transitions, and what did you have to do to set yourself up for success in both of those? The one from undergrad to grad, but then also the transfer in what you had to do to be successful in that. And what have you had to do now at the University of Michigan, Flint, to maintain your success throughout your time in this program?

Tess Muhammad [00:09:59]: Well, we'll start off with Wayne State. I think Wayne State primed me for you of influence in that I would probably say a lot of us are overachievers. And so when I went to Wayne State knowing nothing about graduate school, I kinda came in with expectations that at the time necessarily weren't realistic with me working full time and going to school and grad school. That 1st semester at Wayne State was horrible for me. The balancing, the just everything about it, balancing family, balancing schoolwork, just life in general was a struggle because I had to adjust to myself. And I call it not lowering expectations. I call it changing expectations because I'm I'm not I don't lower anything. I have to change what I expect for myself.

Tess Muhammad [00:10:48]: And from Wayne State, that's what I did. I changed expectations. Meaning, what I what I needed to put as priority or what I thought I needed to put as priority needed to change. So my priority wasn't always necessarily getting the best grade on an assignment. My priority was making sure I stayed healthy, both physically and mentally. And then from there, doing the things that will help me stay healthy, then doing what I can do to make sure that I'm being successful in the class. And successful in the class may not always mean equate to an a plus, an a minus. It may be a b plus.

Tess Muhammad [00:11:25]: So because what's the old saying, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. Like, your body is gonna decide to, hey. I'm gonna take a break. Whether you want me to know to or not, you know, I'm gonna take a break. So Wayne State got me at that place. So then when I'm trans by by the time I got to transfer, I came into U of M Flint with a whole different mindset of how I was going to manage U of M Flint, having been at Wayne State, and going through that whole process. So I definitely will say that I came into UHPlint in a much better place, much better able to prioritize work, life, family from that experience. And since then, have been doing that on specifics.

Tess Muhammad [00:12:04]: You know? Like, again, my priority is my health first. So incorporating exercise. Making sure I'm doing something for myself in the morning before I do anything else. Which, as we know, exercise, everything about that helps you. You know, it helps me focus during the day. It helps me stay awake. It helps me, deal with things better, whether it's school work or group projects or It just, it does. So for me, a lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward.

Tess Muhammad [00:12:41]: That's been my approach. And so far, I really it hasn't in terms of when I say grades aren't my first priority anymore. I still do okay. So it's working. I can still put myself first and my health first and still do well in school. And I think sometimes we think that it's a trade, but it's more of a balance. It's not a trade. You don't have to trade one for the other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Well, it's good to know that you do don't have to trade one thing for another, because I think that a lot of people going into grad school probably have that mindset that they think that they do have to give up something. And that sometimes can be a limiting factor of making the decision to jump, making the decision to go to graduate school, and allowing you to get that barrier outside of your head and being able to say no. You can still do the things that are important to you, and it still have those relationships to be able to do it. But it's a balancing piece of being able to understand where you have to put those priorities.

Tess Muhammad [00:13:44]: And it's not easy. I mean, it's never it's not always easy. I'm saying these are the things I do. They're honestly, just right now with my unit closing, Suddenly, I don't know what's gonna happen. You know? Am I am I gonna get a paycheck in the next 2 weeks? Am I gonna already have another position? So all those things, but you just kinda have to surrender to the situation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: There's definitely stressors that happen throughout graduate school, whether it be the things like you just said. Your unit is shutting down, and you're still having to make sure that you make it through grad school at the same time.

Tess Muhammad [00:14:16]: Exactly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: But others, I mean, there's going to be times where life happens. You have a a loved one that passes away. You get pregnant. You you you know, life happens while you're still going through grad school. And the one thing that I would say to any student is that when life happens, you need to reach out to your faculty, you need to reach out to your program, you need to talk to them about what is happening. Don't internalize it and try to push through, because inevitably, if you do that, it's going to impact your success during that term and beyond. And at some points, you have to make decisions of whether or not you can continue on, or if you need to step back, take a term, and then come back. But you won't know what the right answer is until you can talk to your faculty, your program, about what your options actually are.

Tess Muhammad [00:15:17]: That's such a good advice because I think that a lot of students really don't look at that as an option that it's okay to step back and then come back. It's okay. But, like, most of us are just, oh, we gotta go through it straight through. It can't be anything that happens, but, no, it's okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]: And I will be honest. There are some programs that are very lockstep, and taking a step back or taking a break may mean that you're taking a year off, and you have to understand all of the ramifications of taking that step back before you make the decision. So that's why I always tell students, everyone should know. Let them into your business and let them know what you're dealing with. Because if they can't, if your faculty don't know, they can't support you. If your program doesn't know, they can't support you. They want to support you because they want you to be able to graduate. It's to our benefit to have great alums out in the community using their degree to be able to to make the world a better place, and every program is going to want to see their students succeed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: So but a lot of times, when I see students not succeeding when they're struggling and trying to push through whatever is happening, some of the problems come up because they don't disclose.

Tess Muhammad [00:16:41]: They didn't reach out. That's good. That's it's good. That's good to hear. As he's like, you know it, but just the reinforcement. It's great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:47]: You're in the midst of your program. You're working through the program, and you're working at the same time, and a lot of graduate students will do that. As you've gone through these classes and you're learning all these new things, How are you finding that the information that you're learning in your classes can be utilized in the work that you do every day?

Tess Muhammad [00:17:09]: Well, in the work I do in terms of acute well, it's interesting because I'm learning that acute psych specifically versus outpatient psych are 2 different worlds. So, I mean, in that, it's going to help me when I do practice, I mean, from different medications that are being used, which makes sense because when I someone's coming in acute, they're cute. They may be acutely psychotic. They may be acutely psych suicidal. So the medications and things that we use and approach that we use is gonna be different from someone who's is being in a maintenance phase. So that in itself has been huge for me because I'm just being introduced to so many different and it's almost refreshing because being able to be outpatient and see people that are functioning and then doing what they need to do and and have a life versus when you're inpatient. You kinda get the other side of it where you feel like, man, are any of these people getting healthy? They they come back? Things like that. So that's one side of it.

Tess Muhammad [00:18:08]: A lot of the like motivational interviewing things that I'm learning, how to speak to patients, collaboration that I've been learning, definitely helpful. Helpful both inpatient and outpatient. So, in terms of communicating with different disciplines and learning that in school, that's been very helpful in both environments. But I will say, I mean, as anyone knows is in grad school, it is a bulk of information. So you kinda have to figure out how to prioritize, how to get the meat of it out, and what that can do for you and help you in your process and in your job and in your clinicals, and then keep moving. I don't know if that makes sense. And I don't know if I said it the way that I I intended, but it is a bulk of information, and it's all great information. But because it's a bulk of information, kind of streamlining, okay, this is what I need to focus on right now, and then move on to the next thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: So you've given a lot of piece of advice today. You've talked about your own experiences, the things that you have learned and what drew you and brought you here from your first graduate program. As you think about students that are considering graduate school, no matter if it's for nursing or for any area, what are some tips that you might offer to those individuals that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Tess Muhammad [00:19:33]: The biggest advice I would say is always try to stay centered. And what I mean by that is centered is try to stay balanced in what you expect from yourself and from the program. Don't put all your energy into one area of your life. Try to balance it out. And always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered, whether that be you going to church, that means you going to the gym, That means that you need a massage every week or you need to hang out with family and friends, once a month or or once every week. Find something that helps you stay balanced, and that brings you joy.

Tess Muhammad [00:20:23]: And make sure you do it. Don't sacrifice that or for school. Because that 1 hour or one evening that you spend with doing whatever it is you love or getting up in the morning and going for a walk every morning is, I promise, going to make everything else better and everything else, a little bit more manageable to deal with. If you find yourself completely leaving everything that you enjoyed because you have to study so much and because you have to work, at some point, it's going to be too much. You're going to be burned out. And when you get to that point, it's just your brain doesn't pick up the way it should. You're not comprehending things the way you should. There's no happiness there.

Tess Muhammad [00:21:08]: And you need to always maintain some sort of peace and happiness while you're going to this program. So that's my advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:16]: Yeah. Well, Tess, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your advice today, for sharing your journey with us, and I truly wish you all the best as you continue in your education, as you continue toward that goal of getting your MSN and then your DNP to be able to help others the way that I know that you are trying to help them. Thanks. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:07]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is often viewed as a labyrinth that requires significant introspection and preparation. On the latest episode of the *Victors in Grad School* podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis explores this intricate path with Paula Nas, an accomplished academic and professional at the University of Michigan Flint. Paula's unique journey through both a Master's degree in Economics and a Law degree provides invaluable insights for anyone considering or currently navigating graduate education.

Embracing Challenges and Making Decisions

Paula's academic journey started at the University of Michigan Flint, where she completed her bachelor's degree in Economics. Initially torn between law and teaching, she discovered that Economics not only piqued her interest but also provided a solid foundation for law school. This excitement led her to pursue a PhD in Economics at Michigan State University, a decision influenced by the enticing offer of an assistantship.

However, the PhD program's heavy emphasis on research over teaching compelled her to pivot back to her initial goal of law school. She ultimately attended Wayne State University, a choice driven by reputation and practical considerations like commuting.

Key Takeaways:

• Being open to new and challenging fields can lead to unexpected passion and opportunities.
• Career goals might evolve, and flexibility is essential in navigating these changes.
• Practical considerations like location and support systems can significantly influence educational decisions.

Preparation and Skill Building for Graduate School

Transitioning between different graduate programs required Paula to develop effective strategies for success. The similarity between undergraduate and PhD programs made the initial shift smoother as compared to adjusting to law school, which demanded a different approach due to its larger class sizes and different educational structure.

Finding a supportive group of peers was crucial for her success in both settings. The support, encouragement, and collaborative study habits formed within these groups made significant contributions to her academic achievements.

Paula emphasizes the following:

• Patience: Adjusting to the demands of graduate school requires time.
• Support System: Whether through family, friends, or classmates, having a reliable network is indispensable.
• Practical Application: Engaging with the material beyond textbooks through community involvement and real-world applications enhances understanding and retention.

Versatility of Graduate Degrees

Paula's career showcases the versatility of a graduate education. Her diverse academic background in economics and law equipped her with a wide array of skills applicable in various professional roles. As a lecturer and now in her role at the Office of Economic Development, these degrees have been fundamental.

Applications of Graduate Degrees:

• Critical Thinking: Both fields foster analytical skills and problem-solving abilities.
• Teaching and Public Service: The broad educational experience has been pivotal in her municipal service and public policy decisions.
• Economic Development: Using economic principles and legal frameworks to facilitate community and business growth.

Drawing from her extensive experience, Paula offers several tips for those considering or currently in graduate school:

1. Patience is Key: Allow time for adjustment and avoid getting disheartened by initial challenges.
2. Build a Support Network: The journey is more manageable and enjoyable with reliable support from peers, family, and mentors.
3. Look at the Big Picture: Focus not just on immediate academic requirements but on how the acquired skills will benefit future career aspirations.
4. Enjoy the Journey: Despite the pressures, savor the learning experience and personal growth that comes with graduate education.

Paula Nas's journey underscores the importance of adaptability, continual learning, and the practical application of diverse skills. Her story is a beacon for current and prospective graduate students, illustrating that success is not only about the destination but also about appreciating and utilizing the experiences gained along the way.

For individuals thinking about furthering their education, the University of Michigan Flint offers comprehensive programs tailored to meet both online and in-person learning preferences. For more information, prospective students can visit: UM-Flint Graduate Programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School podcast. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk through this journey that you're either already on or that you're looking at and trying to decide for yourself, is this the right step for me? And the conversations that we have every week are an opportunity for you to add tools to your own toolbox to help you on this journey. This podcast is all about helping you find success in the journey. And I say journey because it is a journey. It is not something that's going to happen immediately.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: Usually, you're going to take some time to mull this over, to figure this out, to try to figure out what is the right direction for myself, what is the right institution for myself. And as you go through that process, that journey, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, but you're also going to learn a lot about what you're looking for. And this podcast is here to help you as a resource along that path. Every week, I love being able to bring on different guests, different people that have had different experiences that can share those experiences with you to help you to again add tools to your toolbox. So this week we got another great guest with us today. Paula Nas is with us today, And Paula is the director of the office of University Outreach for the University of Michigan Flint. And she's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years doing a number of different things along the years. But along that journey, she has gotten a number of different degrees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: She got her bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, then went on and got a master's degree in economics from Michigan State University and then a law degree from Wayne State University. So we're going to talk about her own journey and be able to learn from her. Paula, thanks so much for being here today.

Paula Nas [00:02:12]: Thanks so much for the invitation, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to have you here today and for you to share this journey. As I said, you went on a journey yourself. You went from that bachelor's degree in economics from the University of Michigan Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey when you were getting that degree from the University of Michigan Flint, you made a decision whether it was right at the same time or a little bit after, that you wanted to continue, wanted to continue on to get the master's degree in economics. Let's first talk about that jump and what made you decide that you wanted to continue on to get that master's degree?

Paula Nas [00:02:52]: That's a great question. You know, I was in the honors program at U of M Flint studying economics. Initially, though, when I entered U of M Flint as an undergraduate, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. Growing up, I always thought I'd either wanna be a lawyer or I'd wanna be a teacher. Early on, as I was kind of pursuing that path towards a law degree, somebody had mentioned to me that, you know, economics is one of the best majors that you can have to get into law school. So I said, well, I hadn't really heard much about economics. You know, growing up, it never really was a word or a class we used at the time. But I said, if that's my way to get to law school, that's what I'm going to do.

Paula Nas [00:03:27]: So I enrolled in an economics class and I found it to be one of the most challenging classes I had, but also one of the most fascinating. As I continued along the degree program, I grew more and more to like economics and appreciate the different facets of the profession. So, when it came time to graduate, I said to myself, I can either go to law school or I can pursue a PhD in economics. So, I took the GRE and I took the LSAT, and I performed pretty well in both of them, to be honest with you. And I applied to law schools and graduate schools, and Michigan State offered me a deal I really couldn't pass up to enter their PhD program in economics. That's what I did. I had an assistantship that paid for the program. So again, I started in the PhD program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: So at one point you started the PhD program, but you ended up with a master's. So along the way, you made a decision that you didn't want to continue to complete the PhD and you pivoted. And you went back to that initial goal, that initial idea that you wanted to get that law degree. What made you decide to pivot, not get the PhD? And what made you decide that you wanted to move back to that initial goal, like you said, of getting that law degree?

Paula Nas [00:04:42]: I love the program at Michigan State. Really, I was there because I wanted to teach phonemix. And what I quickly realized was that this was more of a research pursuit than a teaching pursuit. And the whole kind of publish or perish, you know, fear got to me. And I said to myself, I really want to teach, but this isn't really what this is about. So I think I'm gonna go back and reconsider law school, at which point I applied to law school and then I entered Wayne State Law School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: I guess one of the questions that comes to mind is that you kind of mentioned the fact that you decided that you wanted to go to Michigan State because they offered you a deal that you couldn't refuse. And then at some point during the choice of going to law school, you did make the choice to ultimately attend Wayne State University for law school. And there's a lot of different law schools that are out there. And you said you did well on the LSAT. So there probably were a number of options for you in that regard as well. So talk to me about as you looked at law school, and you were making the decisions for where you were planning to attend for law school, what made you ultimately decide that you wanted to attend Wayne State University?

Paula Nas [00:05:49]: Going back a little bit on how I ended up with my master's, completed all of the coursework for the PhD and had begun the process of taking the preliminary examinations. And then, you know, I decided to make the switch. I was engaged at the time, and then I was married. And at that time, I realized that I I needed to find a law school basically that I could commute to. And Wayne State has an excellent reputation. Their pass rate for the bar is very high. They have great faculty, wonderful programs. And, you know, that was one of the determining factors.

Paula Nas [00:06:18]: And indeed, when I was in law school, 1st year of law school, we welcomed our 1st bundle of joy during the 1st week of our final exams for the 1st year of law school. And, you know, my husband and family, they were very supportive. We decided I would still finish law school. And then second bundle of joy came, and I started to realize that I probably was gonna need to pivot and that I love teaching. I started part time at U of M Flint while I was still at law school, and I really decided that was a career for me. So I I did finish law school, but I began to teach part time at U of M Flint, which I was very fortunate. It eventually led into a full time lecturer position.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: So you finished up law school. And one of the things you said earlier was someone had told you initially that economics was the best major to allow for you to go to law school? Now I worked at a law school for about 10 years, so I saw many different majors. And I always tell students there's not one right major for a student to go into law school. But talk to me about that advice that you got. And you did do that pathway of economics. How did you find that that degree prepared you, ultimately, for going through law school?

Paula Nas [00:07:28]: I like to tell my students now when I teach economics that, you know, the discipline of economics really prepares you for all decisions you can make in life. So, you know, fundamental to economics is that, you know, we assume that people are rational. Before you make a decision, you compare costs and benefits. We all know that economics is a very analytical profession. And I think that's what really helped me prepare for law school and then to succeed in law school. And I still use all of those tools and all those models. And as you say, the toolbox that you mentioned, I use it in everything I do. And indeed, lawyers use it all of the time.

Paula Nas [00:08:03]: So, you know, it helped me initially to get that preparation to take the LSAT and do well on the exam. And then it really kind of, at the time, set me apart from some of my peers in law school because everybody had a different preparation. But to your point, I think that people assume, and nothing against a pre law degree, but I think people assume if they're gonna go to law school, they need a pre law degree. And in my mind, that just isn't the case. As long as you have a good solid preparation and something that gives you those tools to be able to analyze different kinds of situations, whether that be economics or business or philosophy or whatever that is, I think you're well prepared for law school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:40]: I would completely agree with you. I would say to any student that you don't need to be a poli sci major. You don't need to be a pre law major. And to be honest, if you want to go to law school, it'd probably be better to have a degree in some other area in case down the road you decide you don't wanna use the law degree and you want to fall back on something else, that having something that is completely different is not a bad thing. But I would say the same thing if somebody wanted to teach. And I tell students, okay, you wanna be a history teacher. Well, if you're going to be a history teacher, you should get a certification in something completely different than history because I always tell students, how many history teachers were there in your school district? Only probably you probably could count them on one hand in regards to your middle and high school unless you're from a very big district. Same thing there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:30]: So I would tell students all the time that having a degree in some other area that challenges you, that pushes you to be able to learn good writing skills, good thinking skills, and being able to understand ethics, being able to understand some philosophical concepts, being able to communicate well, all of those factors are things that law schools are gonna be looking for, and that can help you in that as well. So completely agree with you there, but I was interested to just kind of get your perspective now that you are a number of years out from that and looking back itself. Now you made 2 different transitions into 2 different types of programs, 2 different schools that offered you 2 different types of education, because the way that they teach you in a PhD program is going to be very different than the way that they teach in a law program. And as you made those distinct transitions into those different schools, into those different types of programs, you had to find ways to set yourself up for success, both at the beginning and throughout the entire journey. Can you talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success in both of those situations?

Paula Nas [00:10:40]: So I think it was easier to make the transition between undergrad degree to PhD because it's a very similar kind of program as you know. It's really good to find a group of cohorts that you can trust and work closely with. The transition to law school was a little more difficult, much bigger programs. We were separated into classes of maybe a 100 each, more classes during the week. But still you need to find a group of peers that you can study with, work together with, be able to trust, bounce ideas against in order to be able to succeed. But I don't really think I figured that out in law school until maybe the 2nd year, and once I figured out, everything was much easier. So I guess I would say to anybody who's making that transition, don't give up because eventually it's going to fall into place. But it does take a little time to get the hang of it, I would say.

Paula Nas [00:11:30]: The other thing is going back to my experience at U of M Flint, excellent professors, small classes, we were really encouraged to do our absolute best. Then I really have to also, in addition to the economics department, give a shout out to the honors program. But the time and still now, a lot of our research capabilities and our discipline and writing abilities can be attributed to some of the lessons and some of the information we get in the honors program. So they were also instrumental in my college graduate school and postgraduate school success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:03]: You went on, you got involved as a lecturer. You've worked for the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And you're utilizing your degrees in different ways, both as a educator as well as in your role in outreach for the university itself. So both of these programs prepared you in different ways. But as you look back at the education that you got in that PhD program, and the law degree that you received, how do you feel that the graduate degrees helped you to prepare for the work that you're doing today?

Paula Nas [00:12:37]: I think I had a very broad education, starting with the honors program and then several different fields within economics, and then moving on to law. I mean, all of those apply to everything I'm doing today. And as you think about it as a student, an undergrad, sometimes you're just trying to graduate. You're trying to get through the next exam. As you approach graduate school, school, I think really things really have to change. So in my mind, you really have to think about not real specifics. You need to be more of a generalist, I would say, and really think about what the bigger picture is. And I tried to absorb what I needed to, not just what I was learning that day.

Paula Nas [00:13:12]: So I reached out to different friends, different faculty, different community and business organizations, and those connections as I was in school, working together side by side, not just reading the textbook, but applying it to real world situations. I think that's what really helped me along the way, and it continues to help me. So I've noticed since I have the position in what was the Office of University Outreach, now the Office of Economic Development. I use those skills on a daily basis. You think when you're in graduate school or an undergrad, started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way. You start to realize as you pivot and as your journey continues, often far away from what you started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way, and you really start to value them as you get farther and farther in your career and in your public life. I also served on a local city council, and the skills I learned as an economist and as somebody who went to law school, I can't imagine not having those skills as I sat down and had to make some of those public policy decisions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now this show is all about success, and you've offered a number of things that you did to find success in that journey yourself. And as you look back to your own different journeys in graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Paula Nas [00:14:35]: I would say be patient. Don't give up. Realize, you know, it takes time to adjust to graduate school. I would say find some valuable friends that can help you along the way because you need a support system, whether that's your family or your friends or somebody in the community. You really need to have kind of those cheerleaders who will help you get through. And look at the big picture. Don't always focus on what you'll have to do to get through. Focus on how all of these skills will help you in the future.

Paula Nas [00:15:01]: And really, it's hard to tell somebody this as they're going through it because we know graduate school isn't easy, but try to enjoy the journey. Just like when students start with their undergraduate degree, we tell them, oh, make sure you have fun. This is the best 4 years of your life. And a lot of people are saying, I don't believe that. So I'm not necessarily saying those will be the best years of your life, but those will be the years when you develop those skills that you will take with you in your individual life and also in your future careers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]: Well, Paul, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing both of the journeys that you went on in your graduate education, because I'm sure that individuals that are thinking about graduate school can take so many nuggets from the pieces that you're sharing and things that you had to learn along the way. And I wish you all the best.

Paula Nas [00:15:47]: Thanks so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Pursuing higher education is often seen as a straight path, but for many, it is a winding journey filled with unexpected turns. In this week's Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Shanna Haver joined us and shared her enlightening journey from social work to earning her doctorate in occupational therapy. Her experiences impart valuable lessons for anyone considering graduate school, especially those contemplating a career pivot.

From Social Work to Occupational Therapy: A Non-Linear Path

Dr. Shanna Haver began her educational journey studying social work at Eastern Michigan University and gained extensive experience working with Catholic Social Services and the shelter system in Ann Arbor. However, discontentment with the systemic limitations of social work led her to a transformative sailing trip, sparking her passion for occupational therapy. She realized she wanted to pursue a doctorate, drawn by the promise of deeper knowledge and broader opportunities to impact people's lives directly.

"As a social worker, people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over...as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool," Dr. Haver elaborated, emphasizing the empowerment this new role provided her.

Choosing the Right Program

Deciding on the University of Michigan Flint's Occupational Therapy Doctorate (OTD) program was not an arbitrary choice. It was the first of its kind in Michigan and relatively close to her home in Ypsilanti. Factors such as program structure, curriculum, and faculty expertise played significant roles in her decision.

"I realized that it's only six more months [for a doctorate compared to a master's]... it gives you the tools and empowerment," she noted, highlighting that the additional commitment was well worth the knowledge and authority the doctorate conferred.

Thriving Amidst the Pandemic: Challenges and Adaptation

Starting her program in the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Haver had to adapt to a predominantly online learning environment. She emphasized the importance of understanding one's learning style to succeed in such challenges. Whether through creating a dedicated study space, forming study groups, or maintaining a routine, she underscored the need for flexibility and perseverance.

"Learning your learning style, dedicating to your tasks, and not allowing yourself to fall into procrastination... were essential," Dr. Haver advised, shedding light on the many ways she ensured she stayed on track.

Using Past Experience to Fuel Future Success

Dr. Haver's diverse work background—from bartending to social work—provided her with a unique perspective and skill set, which she leveraged throughout her academic journey and beyond. Her varied experiences allowed her to connect with people more effectively and navigate different professional scenarios with ease.

"My background is so vast...volunteering with children with special needs to bartending, these experiences shaped my passion for helping people," she explained, showcasing how every job she held played a role in her development.

Post-Graduate Success and Ongoing Learning

After earning her OTD, Dr. Haver took on multiple roles, including home health occupational therapist and consultant. She continues to evolve, working on a patent and conducting research, demonstrating that learning and professional development are continuous processes.

"The program prepared me for knowing a little about a lot...it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing," she said, reflecting on the lasting impact her education has had on her career.

Tips for Future Graduate Students

Drawing from her journey, Dr. Haver offers practical advice for those considering graduate school:

1. Understand Your Learning Style: Identify if you are an in-person or visual learner and tailor your study habits accordingly.
2. Stay Organized and Proactive: Use tools like checklists to manage assignments and track your progress.
3. Leverage Your Network: Don't hesitate to reach out to mentors and peers. Building a supportive network is crucial.
4. Keep Your Long-Term Goals in Mind: Remember why you started and stay focused on your end goals, even when the journey gets tough.
5. Embrace Lifelong Learning: Accept that graduate education is just the beginning. Keep pushing the boundaries of your knowledge and skills.

Dr. Shanna Haver's story is a testament to the power of resilience, passion, and continuous learning. For those contemplating graduate school or a career change, her experiences provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities and finding fulfillment through education. Whether you're at the beginning of your journey or well on your way, her insights remind us that growth often comes from taking bold steps outside our comfort zones.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to look at this journey that you're on. And I say journey because it is a journey. And you might be at the very beginning thinking about graduate school, thinking about, is this the right thing for me? Should I do this? I don't know how I'm going to do this. You might also be in grad school already and looking to be able to push through and get to the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And you might be toward the end where you see that light at the end of the tunnel, getting ready for your career and being at that point where you're making that next step in your professional journey. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to be able to prepare yourself well, to find success in that journey. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you, providing you with resources, and allowing you to learn from others that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, found success, and have some resources, have some tips, have some things that they can share with you to help you in this journey that you're on. Really excited every week also to bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have had the opportunity to go to graduate school, have come out on the end being successful. And today is no different. We have another great guest with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Doctor. Shanna Haver is with us today. And today we're gonna be talking to her about her journey. She got her doctorate degree in occupational therapy from the University of Michigan Flint. We're going to talk about that journey that she went on to be able to find the program that she wanted to go into, find the career that she wanted to go through and go into, and be able to give you some resources, give you some ideas, some thoughts, some tools for your toolbox that you can use to be able to help yourself in the future. Shanna, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:08]: Thank you, Christopher, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: I really appreciate you being here today. And I love being able to start our episodes with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. You were studying social work. And at some point during that journey, at some point during that experience there, or even during your time at Oakland Community College studying sign language, you had an opportunity to be able to think to yourself, I wanna go further. I wanna continue my education. And you decided to go into occupational therapy. I guess, 1st and foremost, take me back and talk to me about what it was that made you first decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:51]: Yeah. Of course. So my journey is not linear. It is not typical. I graduated in 2013 with my undergrad in social work at Eastern Michigan University. And from there, I started my social work career working with Catholic Social Services, working with what they call core morbid clients that are dealing with both the mental health diagnosis as well as a substance abuse, diagnosis, and then transitioned into working for the shelter system. So working for the Delaunay Center in Ann Arbor where I was the service center coordinator. So working with people that would come in and not necessarily have a residential bed at the shelter, but still wanna do participate in that program as far as ending their homelessness.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:03:34]: And then I transitioned to working for community mental health here in Washtenaw, and I wasn't there for months. And I was like, this is not what I'm here to do. I found myself just completing a lot of paperwork and being told I was doing too much. So went back to the shelter and stayed there for the better part of 7 years. And I like to brag that the nonresidential program that I was a part of actually housed more folks than those in the residential program. So when consumers would come, I'd always tell us, like, my goal is to get you in your own bed before a bed here becomes available. So helping working on that social work empowerment. I was given the opportunity to go on an adventure with a friend who called me up and was like, hey.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:04:16]: I know you like sailing and we're taking a tall ship from Maine to Key West in October. And it's like, okay. I got some weeks I can, you know, plan out. Let's go for it. Somehow, 2 weeks turned into a month because of weather, and I was really just finding myself 100 miles offshore with nothing but horizon horizon and maybe a few freighters on the tall ship Appledore 2, where I really just kind of found myself falling in love with the water, falling in love with the waves and how nothing else mattered on shore. Even though in the back of my head, it's like, oh my gosh. I'm gonna get fired because I told my manager I was only gonna be gone for 2 weeks, and this adventure has taken the better part of a month. And so, long story short, got to Key West, came back to the shelter, and I was at Delaunas for about 2 more months and realized that this cubicle position in a county organization was just not for me because I was frustrated.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:10]: And I was frustrated with being a social worker and having all of these tools to help someone better their situation and empower their moments, but only really being as effective as, I guess the resources I had access to was really kind of my glass ceiling that I kept hitting. So realizing that when I was going for like clinical team meetings at hospitals, it's like, oh, you're a social worker. They're like, no. I'm an occupational therapist, but people don't need job coaching. Like, they already have a job. And then that's when I learned, like, what an actual occupational therapist did and how it's so much more than just the perceived notion of job coaching. So decided to pursue master's degree. And when I was doing my shadowing, I always like to ask my peers.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:52]: It's like, hey. You know, what was the 1 thing that you wish that you would have done differently in your educational career or in the beginning of your, you know, actual career after graduating. And 2 people specifically stated they wish they went all the way for their doctorate. And so that's where I discovered that University of Michigan Flint was actually 1 of the first doctorate programs in Michigan, and it actually wasn't that horribly far away from Ypsilanti, Michigan. So that's where I decided to pursue my doctorate in occupational therapy.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:18]: And that was really 1 of the other questions because there are opportunities to be able to get both a master's, an MSOT, a master's in occupational therapy, as well as a doctorate in occupational therapy. And the University of Michigan Flint was the first program in the state of Michigan, but it sounds like the 1 of the main factors in your decision was that, was looking for that OTD versus the MSOT. Were there any other factors that you thought of, that you considered as you were looking at different programs for for yourself?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:46]: Sure. I just I realized being in my thirties, I mean, I started my OT program when I was 33, and I was like, this is it. Like, we're not changing careers again. My early life crisis is going to be the only 1 that I have. And so just kind of looking at the opportunities of an MSOT and an OTD and realizing that it's only 6 more months. I mean, granted, the program is there's nothing about that program that is only it was very intense, but it gives you the tools and the empowerment to be like, okay, if you don't know it, here's the skills that you need to hit the research, hit the medical literature, the networking opportunities of doing all the different outings and engagements with the program to help empower you to be that resource. So the 1 thing that was frustrating as a social worker is that it seemed that unless you're going into therapy, your resources in the community was actually what measured your impactfulness, where as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool. So if it's not enough, it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing and always keep learning.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:07:49]: You know, even now just as a new a new OT in the career, it's like I'm finding myself in situations that weren't necessarily covered all in-depth during the program. So I'm reaching back out to my mentors. It's like, where can I find more information about, you know, this diagnosis, this condition, these interventions? And it's all at your fingertips. You know, you hit the literature, hit the research, hit your networking and your peer supports, and you are the resource. There is no glass ceiling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: So you made the choice. You decided to change careers, move from social work into occupational therapy. You jumped into that program. That program is a full time program. So you go in with a cohort of other students, and you're working along for those 3 years as you're learning about becoming an occupational therapist, building those skills to prepare yourself for the future. As you made that transition in and you were identifying for yourself some of those first and foremost things, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success. And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the graduate program, especially after not being in school for a number of years?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:08:58]: The preparation was nothing of what I expected because I started this program in August of 2020. So we were in full blown pandemic and being a new program and everyone not knowing what to do with the pandemic, it was a lot of ebb and flow. So I met my faculty and my cohort on a Zoom call, and then I quickly realized that I do not have the attention to sit at the computer and look at a screen. I am an in person learner. I'm a hands on learner. So having to, first off, figure out what type of learner you are, what do you require from your educators, what do you require from your classmates to support you. And then also working from home as a student into making that space, making that routine. So I was lucky enough to have a home where I could be like, yep.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:09:46]: This is my desk. And when I sit down and sit at this computer, I'm going to stay here for x amount of time until I get these tasks done. And then just having that having that dedication to your tasks and not allowing yourself to just fall into that procrastination. Because if there's anything that I can tell anyone that wants to go under a doctorate program, you will get overwhelmed by the list of assignments and projects and having multiple different group projects going on at the same time. I've never had such a heavy caseload as I did in the doctorate program, but I also look back on reflecting it is that just giving myself grace because we were going through a pandemic. We're being forced to learn in a non typical way, and our only on campus learning for the 1st semester was our anatomy lab, but then our anatomy lecture was online. And so it was very interesting. So I would say learning your learning your learning style, you know, what type of learner are you? I realized that I couldn't just sit and read.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:10:44]: I needed to print out, highlight, handwrite, whether that was handwriting on my tablet or just taking the time to do that, you know, manual writing because I knew that's how I was gonna retain information. And then also just working out a core study group with my classmates because everything was online and on screens. It's like, I I just don't wanna be at screens anymore. They wanna be in person. So then getting that group together that you can actually sit and teach each other and ask questions and bounce questions off of. And I guess the last part would just be to remember that your instructors are humans too. They didn't just magically appear as instructors knowing everything. So getting to know your instructors journey? Or what was 1 thing you wish you did? So that would be where I would start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:31]: So as you're going through this program, you already have had a career, you have a different career, a different pathway that you'd studied prior to going into occupational therapy. Not every student is going to take that leap to be able to pivot and to move in a different direction. I'd love your perspective. And as you were going through this program, how did that background in social work, how did that work experience help you to find success? And how did you draw from that past experience to, again, find success in that journey that you were on?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:06]: My background is so vast. I if you were to look at my resume before I became a social worker, it was eclectic. Eclectic. I was a jack of many trades, master of nothing. Everything from bartending to hotel front desk work to working in a quick lube shop to being working at CVS. It was it was all over the place. And so taking my varied background of knowing a little about a lot and realizing that I love engaging with people. I mean, even as a 14 year old, I volunteered with it was a 4 h project program called Bloom, where I believe I was 14, 15.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:43]: We're volunteering with children that were at the local, what they call a focus school or special ed program. And all we did was plant flowers together. So I think that's kinda where I got my passion of wanting to help people, and I've always wanted to people. It's always been kind of a personal motto of leave something better than how you found it, and that includes people also. And so realizing as a social worker that people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over. It's like once this financial pot has ran out, I'm really just sitting here kind of pointing you in directions, but not really benefiting you, so to speak, because I did not wanna go into therapy. And that seemed to be the focus of social work is that you didn't wanna focus on resources that you were basically utilizing, then you had to go into therapy. So as an occupational therapist, I mean, OTs, they deal with everything, daily activities, whether it's like completing tasks or organizing or problem solving, decision making, controlling emotions, any of those, like, life management skills and anything that helps with creating, like, those coping strategies to, like, get that independence, those are all things that can come from your brain.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:13:44]: Those are all skills and interventions that you can learn in the program or by diving into the research. And so just kind of being that support system for someone to help them better their situation and realizing that where they're at right now is not the end was super empowerful for me. So volunteering at the local, brachial plexus clinic here in Ann Arbor kinda kept me on the front lines and engaged with people even though it was during the pandemic and very isolating. It just kinda let me not lose focus of the end goal. It's like at the end goal, I'm gonna be doing this and the other thing. It may have absolutely nothing to do with this 15 page neuroanatomy paper that I'm working on right now, but just learning how you're gonna apply that to your future and not losing track of, like, that 3 year plan or that 4 year plan. It's like, where do you see yourself in 4 years And what are you learning right now to help make that future picture more clear?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:35]: Now you've gotten the degree. You've been out in the field now for a little bit of time, and you are still very involved and very active and have a lot of things going on. So now that you've completed that degree, how do you feel that the program prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:14:52]: The program prepared me for, as I said, knowing a little bit about a lot. So whether it is the conditions, whether it is the life development, whether it's, like, the anatomy, kinesiology aspect of things, the program did a really good job of giving you that intro level taste, so to speak, on all these different things. And so it's kind of up to you personally to figure out what you want to focus on and what sort of professional development plan you're going to pursue because they don't teach you everything. I mean, just last week, I'm talking to a faculty still at U of M. It's like, I just found this patient. This is their condition. This is their barriers. Point me in the right direction.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:15:34]: And that's where she connected me with another OT that actually works with this population as her main focus. So learning how to network, not being afraid to ask for help because the program does a great job of teaching you how to network, throwing you out there, and teaching you how you can kind of do that task analysis, do that environment analysis, and use all these different tools that they teach you, figure out what needs to be done, and then empowering you to pursue the solution, even if you may not be that full solution.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: Now as you look back at your graduate education, you're now, as I said, you're very busy. You've got a number of different jobs that you're doing in regards to remote work that you're doing, in grant work, you are a home health occupational therapist in your local area. You've got a lot going on. As you look back at your graduate education, and you look at the work that you're doing now, and you think about others, whether they are thinking about going to get a doctorate in occupational therapy or just going to graduate school in some other area, What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:16:48]: I'm a huge moto person. I actually have a portion of my kitchen wall spray painted with chalkboard chalk paint, and I write mottos. I write quotes. I write inspirations so that as I'm sitting on my counter drinking my cup of coffee, it's almost like an affirmation thing. And 1 motto that really got me through is don't forget why you started. And the follow-up to that is everything you're going through is preparing you for what you asked for. There's many times I looked at that. I was like, I don't know what I asked for, but it was not to go through all of this.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:19]: Because there are gonna be moments you're gonna be super overwhelmed and super checked out, and just learning how to keep yourself moving forward. Even if it's 3 steps back and then 4 steps forward, you're still moving forward. You're still improving your current situation, and you're still pursuing your goal. So to not lose faith because there are times you'll be super overwhelmed. You're like, what does this have to do? This instructor doesn't get me. This homework assignment is really overwhelming. So just keep moving forward. Even if, as I said, like me, not linear.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:47]: I was the 2nd oldest person in my cohort. So I felt super aged out of my program because it's like, oh my gosh. You just early life crisis, and now you're here with all these younger people. And then I actually found a classmate that was older than me and then another classmate that was my same age. So getting to know your cohort, like, they're going through the exact same thing. You don't know what else they're dealing with, but they're right there learning everything brand new. Also, don't forget about the power and the feel good emotion of a checklist because I would have my little flip pen and it would be full. It would be full 2 pages worth, but just having that gratification of crossing things off your list and then hanging on to it because you'll have weeks where you're like, oh my gosh.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:29]: I can't do this. I don't know how I'm gonna handle this. But then you kinda, like, flip back through the pages. It's like, oh my gosh. This time last month, I was doing so much more, and I knocked it out because it's all crossed up. I didn't fill that semester because I'm here at this semester. So kind of keeping those empowerment tools would be a really big thing and save everything. Don't delete anything.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:48]: Keep everything because there will be a moment that you will be in another class. You're like, dang, that 1 class on that 1 lecture, but you couldn't remember exactly what that PowerPoint slide had. So whether it is printing everything into OneNote, whether it is organizing Google Drive, whatever your thing is, is keep everything so that you can control f it later and build up your resources. And also just making sure that you just keep moving forward and give yourself grace because you're doing something you've never done before. And there's a reason you started, and don't forget why you did it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:21]: Well, Shanna, I just wanna say thank you for sharing that. I completely agree with the last thing that you just said. And 1 thing to keep in mind for you as you go through graduate school is that as you're going through, there are those notes, there are resources, there are things that you're going to learn that you may end up having or wanting to refer back on. Sometimes you might be compelled to saying, okay, I'm done with that term. I don't need it anymore. But realize that many times you're going to relate back to those things in your career. And that by keeping some of those things along the way, you're not having to start from square 1. That doesn't mean you need to keep it forever, but it means that down the road that, yes, there are going to be things that you're gonna wanna do to be able to relate back to that, to refer back to that, to be able to help you in that journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:15]: So keep that in mind as well. But, Shanna, thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for all the resources that you've shared and the experience that you've had thus far and your willingness to be able to help others along the way. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:20:29]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity. And like I said, even if your journey is not linear, just keep it moving forward. I mean, if you would've talked to me 5 years ago, I could've never told you that I would have graduated from a doctorate program, been referred to as doctor Haver, been consulted as an environment modification, I guess, knowledge. And having started my own LLC and have a current patent pending on an autonomy doc because trying to convince the general public that accessibility is not the only thing that is not the bar to reach. Let's go past accessibility, and that's what I'm currently working with a study with Kennedy Krieger and a grant from the National Disability System and DHS. And I would have never done any of this if I hadn't actually taken that leap and step 1 step out of my comfort zone. So don't forget why you started and just turn your passions into your career, and you'll be fulfilled.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu forward slash graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Discover the keys to success in graduate education, making informed decisions, and leveraging resources effectively.

Graduate school can be both a thrilling and daunting journey, filled with challenges and opportunities that require strategic planning, resilience, and a clear set of goals. In a recent episode of "Victor's in Grad School" hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Justin Grimes shared his rich experiences and valuable insights into what it takes to navigate graduate school effectively. Below are key takeaways from the episode, expanded to help you prepare for your graduate journey.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Dr. Grimes' educational journey started at the University of Arkansas, where he realized his passion for student affairs. Initially interested in computer science, he pivoted to student affairs after attending the NASPA conference in Washington, D.C. The experience was transformative, helping him see a future beyond a cubicle-bound career, and eventually led him to pursue advanced degrees. His decision underscores the importance of discovering your true interests and aligning them with your career goals.

Key Points:

• Exploration: Attend conferences and networking events to discover career paths.
• Passion: Align your graduate studies with what energizes and interests you.
• Mentorship: Seek advice from mentors who can guide your academic and career decisions.

Transitioning Through Different Degree Levels

From undergraduate to master's and then to a doctorate, each degree level demanded different skills, expectations, and adjustments from Dr. Grimes. His journey also highlights the importance of adaptability, a support system, and resilience. The transition also involved making a strategic choice to stay at the University of Arkansas for his Master's due to familiarity and resources before moving on to the University of Georgia for his PhD due to networking and alumni experiences.

Key Points:

• Adaptability: Be ready to manage increased workloads and deeper academic engagements.
• Support System: Leverage familial, collegial, and professional networks to navigate transitions.
• Adaptability: Embrace and adapt to the unique demands of each educational level.

Importance of Asking the Right Questions

Inspired by his journey, Dr. Grimes authored a book titled "20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School." This resource addresses the myriad of questions prospective graduate students often overlook, such as funding, degree requirements, and long-term career goals. By addressing these questions early, students can make more informed decisions and avoid common pitfalls.

Key Points:

• Informed Decisions: Assess your personal and professional goals against the realities of graduate education.
• Financial Planning: Understand all financing options and create a realistic budget.
• Resources: Utilize books and guides to navigate the application and preparation process.

Overcoming Challenges and Achieving Success

The road to a graduate degree is littered with academic and personal challenges. Dr. Grimes candidly shared how he had to tackle personal setbacks, like managing his father's health issues while pursuing his PhD. His advice revolves around accepting the reality of difficulties, planning for them, and finding ways to manage them effectively.

Key Points:

• Resilience: Cultivate a mindset that can withstand academic and personal upheavals.
• Planning: Be proactive in planning for both expected and unexpected challenges.
• Community: Engage with academic communities to find support and encouragement.

Innovating Through Knowledge and Networking

One notable aspect of Dr. Grimes' journey is the way he used his degree to bridge gaps between academia and professional practice. His work involves not only understanding but also reformulating academic insights to benefit those outside traditional academic circles.

Key Points:

• Bridging Gaps: Use your graduate education to translate complex ideas into practical applications.
• Networking: Build relationships within and beyond your academic community.
• Continuous Learning: Embrace lifelong learning and be open to new opportunities.

Tips for Success in Graduate Education

To conclude, Dr. Grimes shared a few essential tips for those considering or currently in graduate programs:

1. Clarify Your Goals: Understand why you are pursuing graduate education and how it fits into your career trajectory.
2. Budget Wisely: Financial planning cannot be overstated. Know your expenses and funding sources.
3. Skill Assessment: Identify your strengths and skills to better position yourself for academic and professional success.
4. Support Networks: Build and maintain strong support systems both in and out of academia.
5. Enjoy the Journey: Amidst the stress, find moments to celebrate your progress and enjoy the learning experience.

Graduate school is a deeply personal journey filled with growth, discovery, and the occasional setback. As Dr. Grimes' experiences highlight, success in graduate education is not just about academic excellence but also about making informed choices, fostering resilience, embracing change, and building strong support networks. For those taking the plunge into graduate studies, his book, "20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School," is a must-read to navigate this transformative journey effectively.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, work with you as you are either looking at the possibility of grad school, going through graduate school, getting ready to graduate from grad school. No matter where you are, everybody is on a journey as you consider this thing called grad school. And you don't have to do it alone. And that's the thing that every week I try to bring to you and I try to impardon you is that there are so many people that have gone before you, that have had similar experiences, different experiences, doesn't really matter because they've gone through grad school. They've experienced it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]: They've learned, and they've lived it. And through that, they've been successful. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences that they can share with you that'll help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Justin Grimes is with us today, and doctor Grimes is the owner and chief executive officer of Stick With It LLC. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in going through graduate school as well as a brand new book that he wrote called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. And we've talked about things to think about, things to consider, but I'm always looking for more resources, so here's another resource for you. So we're gonna talk about that too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: Justin, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:01:48]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today and to learn a little bit more from you. And first and foremost, I love turning the clock back in time, so I'm gonna go back. Quite a few years, I wanna go back to the University of Arkansas. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Arkansas. And at some point during that work on your bachelor of business administration and working on some studies in computer science, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on and get a master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head and why you made the choice that you wanted to get that graduate degree?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:02:29]: You had a unique opportunity very early on to attend several conferences and events. And one of those that I attended for those who work in higher education, particularly in student affairs, was the NASPA conference. I went to my first National Association of Student Personnel Administrators conference in Washington, D. C. My first time in D. C. And fell in love with this field of student affairs. And upon working through my undergraduate degree, I realized pretty quickly that the career path I was on at the time was going to likely put me in a cubicle.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:11]: And as a very social individual who likes to be around people and gets energy from that, I decided that I needed to consider another option. And that NASPA conference confirmed for me that that field of choice needed to be student affairs. So recognizing that my entry into student affairs for many positions was going to be meeting the requirement of having a graduate degree. So I decided to, like many people, apply to a graduate program, take the GRE. Unfortunately, I didn't do well. I didn't really spend a lot of time preparing. In full transparency, I just believe my arrogance and presence was enough to get me in. I didn't have a stellar GPA.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:51]: I I tell people my academic story starts with me in my 1st semester getting a one point 66 GPA and getting placed on academic probation. And the next semester getting a 3.33 GPA. And so I didn't have the GPA necessarily to meet the qualifications, but I've had the tenacity, the resiliency, and the drive, and the willingness to say, you know what? Let's go for this goal. And, plaque for a master's program in student affairs at the University of Arkansas and I got told no. And I'm really thankful to that faculty member who met with me and said this might not be the right program in terms of getting you into the field but considering another option. Consider workforce development education. They have 2 tracks. 1 is wor, human resource development education.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:04:40]: One is adult education. Which one would you be interested in? And I'll connect you to the department head. And I thought that in the event that this student affairs, higher education trajectory doesn't work out for me, the idea of hiring, firing, and training people seems really interesting to me. So let me go with that route. And I did the program. It was a online master's program, but I decided to take some classes in class because I love the classroom and thought that a good class to take in class is research. So I finished my master's degree at the University of Arkansas, the same place I did my bachelor's degree and started my entry into student affairs. And that's what made me say, in order to get to this field, you've gotta get your master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: You kind of answered my next question, which really comes down to, as you are thinking about your graduate degree, your your master's degree, why you chose to stay at the University of Arkansas. But you kind of answered that. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit because you you decided after a few years of working that you went from the master's degree, your master's in works workforce development, and you decided to go back to school. And you decided to work on a doctorate degree, a PhD, this time in college student affairs administration. So we heard your story about not getting into that that college student personnel or college student affairs program and master's degree, but you did get into a doctor doctor degree, and you chose to go to the University of Georgia. So talk to me about going into the workforce, but then making that next decision to go back to school. What were the impetuses for you to want to do that? And why the University of Georgia? And why a PhD in this area?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:06:30]: After graduating with a master's degree, I started my student affairs journey, professional journey, full time working in residential life. A lot of people who start in the student affairs get into this particular area within the field and I enjoyed it. You know, being able to impact and have an opportunity to shape, mold, and work with another generation of up and coming students who were really excited about the things they were gonna do with their degrees kept me intrigued and working in the field on top of going in to events and conferences and staying engaged. And I worked at the University of Central Oklahoma for 3 years and then decided that, you know what? I spent enough time as a RD, as a residential, RC at the time, residential coordinator. So now it's time to go to another position. And I went to the University of Oklahoma in a role where the title doesn't matter, the work is what matters more. And and so within that, while I was there, I met had a lot of colleagues who were interested in pursuing doctoral degrees. Also at this time, I recognized that for some doctoral programs, you needed to have at least 3 years or more work experience.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:07:40]: And so as I'm learning and having conversations with colleagues and friends who are going back to get their doctoral and was told no again. And so not that one but another one. And in, you know, in all honesty, what led me to really think about where I was and what was gonna be next in my career was talking to mentors. Many of them pouring into me still saying, you can go to be more in this field. You can do more in this field. And I had a vision and a goal to be a dean of students. A lot of my mentors were dean of students or vice presidents of student affairs or college presidents, and I wanted to be at that position. And so I knew the qualification for many individuals who were going to who wanted to do that was to get a doctoral degree.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:08:33]: Happened to be working at an institution that offer programs but I sided decided that I think now was the time to go do something else, to go somewhere else. And so as I was looking at different programs, what appealed to me at the University of Georgia, 1, I had a mentor who graduated from the University of Georgia who I held in high regard and respect still very much to this day. He was a graduate of the institution. 1 of my fraternity brothers, I'm a member of Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. And one of my fraternity brothers was working in, the Greek life office at the time as a full time part time graduate student in the program and full time employee and having a phenomenal experience. But what really solidified it for me was going to yet again a NASPA conference. And while there, I met 3 current students, now alums of the program, who each were doing different conference presentations and I met them and they were 3 completely different people, personalities, styles, dress, appearance. Everything about them was very different.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:09:33]: And then they did a concurrent session with another good friend of mine. And I said, all 3 of you all are in the same program? And they say, yes. I said, Sign me up. So I then started my my road back to applying to grad school, taking the GRE, really working through more intentionally this time, my preparation for applying to graduate school. Hadn't been or visited the institution. Didn't even know it was in Athens, Georgia. I knew it was in Georgia, but I didn't do my due diligence in that way. But applied to the program and was really, really interested and got admitted into it and decided that, yeah, I think I'm a go.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:10:10]: But at Georgia, they had this program called Acceptance Students' Day. I took that event as an opportunity to go visit the campus, to go sit in a class with one of the faculty members, to meet them in person, and to really gauge and see myself living in Athens, moving across the country a little bit, a few states, and saying confirming for me that this was the decision I needed to make. And those 3 days, I decided, yes, Georgia is where I'm going to go and was connected with a lot of resources to support to help me in that transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: So let's talk about transitions because I know that with every different degree that you go in, there are transitions. There are things that you have to learn either before or as you go in that are going to be pivotal in how you are able to start your path on the right foot and being able to then build those strategies that'll help you to be successful throughout the entire program. Going from undergrad is very different than being in a a master's degree is very different than being in a doctoral program. The expectations are different, etcetera. As you think back to the different transitions that you went through and you look at the endpoint, you were very successful. A your success throughout grad school?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:11:36]: So one of the first things is learning to adapt the mentality of being a scholar, of being a graduate student. It as you've already stated, the expectation of this process, of this experience is much more. The second thing I had to adapt to and really learn to be successful in initially starting is managing the volume of work, particularly at the doctoral level. You are reading a lot. You are consuming a lot of information. And the expectation of your ability to come to an engaging, 1st couple of weeks to take that on, And that can be a lot in the 1st couple of weeks to take that on while you're also, for me, navigating living in a brand new city, living in a brand new state, managing some homesickness. Even though I hadn't lived in the state of Arkansas for 5 years at that point, that was still home for me. And so being away from there, the other part of the transition for me is relying on and knowing that I had support systems who were going to be with my family. My father who was living at the time, health was not the greatest during my time of being at the University of Georgia. And so I'm now 8 and a half, 9 hours away. That's not a way you can you can't get a phone call and just drive down quickly. You really got to think through some things. And so that was a challenge for me.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:04]: The financial aspect. I feel like I did not make a good financial investment initially in terms of planning through how I was gonna pay for this. I took out way too much of student loans my first couple of years. And so getting that amount of money at one time and trying to think through how I'm going to manage that over the course of a semester or the entire year was a transition for me. And then the last point is really understanding academic research at the graduate level. I immediately, as a part of the program, was joined into a research team, a research team that was already off and running with reviewing data. They already had IRB approval. These are words of which I had no prior knowledge of, or experience with extensively.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:50]: And so that was very new for me and that was hard. And so I felt a lot of times that I was just coasting through, hoping to not be seen. And the point where I started to be successful happened during the point when I recognized and made a decision for myself that you can be seen, you can show up in the version that you are at the place that you are. This is not a competition. That program has a community model, not necessarily a cohort model. So we start together for the 1st year or 2, but after that, we can take different classes. We may in we may exit at this this position of being a doctoral student or to candidacy and graduation in different places cause they're a full time and part time students. And so the class that really confirmed me that you are in charge of this process, there's only one name attached to the ID number, is statistics.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:14:41]: I took a summer statistics class. I had, one of my community members we star I started with and she was really good at statistics. And she was like, Hey, I'm a I'm a carry you through this. We're gonna get through this class. And very quickly in the 1st week, I realized she is not going to get me through this. She had a full time job and was juggling her family. So that first assignment, getting it back and not doing well, I said, oh man, you've got to figure out what you're going to do. Because you are gonna have to get yourself through this.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:15:09]: And that point when I took that ownership, that's when things actually started to get a lot better for me. That was year 3. And then 4 years it took me to finish the degree. So it took a while. And I'm glad that I had that experience. I'm glad that I had those challenges with the research team and learning to adapt this new mentality of being a doctoral student. It was not easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]: No. It's definitely not easy. And it take definitely takes time to be able to get into that groove and be able to understand what not only your faculty expectations are, but what the university expectations are. And the the the the mantle that you're wearing for that degree is going to be different depending on where you are, you know, in the program and all of them. There's tons of expectations that you've got in. Now you and we and I say that not to scare anyone, but just to go in with open eyes and to ask the right questions. And speaking of asking the right questions, doctor Grimes, as I said, wrote a book just recently that is called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. So, Justin, let's talk about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]: Talk to bring me back to the beginning and tell me why you decided you wanted to take the time to work, to put all this together, to put this out into the world, and to help others in this way.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:16:28]: So this is quite an interesting experience for me, writing a book. I never thought again, my goal was to be a dean of students and vice president and doing a doctoral internship for 2 years in the dean of students office. I quickly realized I don't wanna be a dean of students or a vice president of student affairs. And, you know, sometimes when you have that experience, you are having to figure out what you're going to do next. And my funding and my contract was not renewed in that office. And so that happens. That's real. Sometimes you lose your funding or your assistance citizenship and you've gotta figure out what you're going to do.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:17:02]: Because of the relationships that I have with the graduate school going to recruitment events and talking with different prospective students, an opportunity was presented to me from the dean. The dean had already ended all of her positions for the following year, and one was created just for me to work in the graduate school business office. And while there, that really started my interest in learning about graduate school is what ultimately led me to write my own dissertation around what motivates students to pursue PhDs in education. And after I finished the doctoral degree, my wife, who I met while I was at the University of Georgia, got a job at Virginia Tech. And during that time as a spousal hire, I'm starting this, she was the primary hire, I am the secondary hire. An opportunity was presented at the graduate school to continue my work working in graduate school as a recruiter managing diversity programs and retention programs. And what I found being on the road is that I could talk to any prospective student about the institution. I could sell the institution.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:02]: But what I could not always do is sell the program. What I did not always was able to do was to talk through funding. To talk about what you really need to be a full time student or a part time student. What funding look like, should you do this locally. There was a lot of questions that students had, but there were also more questions that students weren't asking before they made the decision to pursue it. And me included. I just kinda again, I was here earlier that I went to I accepted Georgia's site on the scene. And so this is what led me to write the book during the pandemic.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:35]: Also during this time, my mother was navigating a cancer diagnosis. She has stage 4 thyroid cancer. So I'm traveling between Virginia and Arkansas to manage her, as well as my mother-in-law was battling a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So me and my wife were on the road, and I needed something to pour into that was going to give life beyond this experience of 2 individuals battling it, cancer that was not curable and life being taken away. So I dove straight deeply into writing this book. It was the book that I needed. It was the book I wanted to give every student that I met. It was the book that I want everyone who thinks about graduate school to grab and go forward with.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:19]: And that's what led me to write this book. It's been a wonderful experience. I never thought I would become an author. I never thought that I would leave for higher education, but that is what this book has led me to. So I share that story about my start in graduate education because it's what led me to this point now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:37]: So as you put this book out into the world and people are reading it, what are some of the high points, the pieces that you really want everyone to take away from this book?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:48]: I want everyone to, with this book, to first start about thinking start with thinking through your dreams and your goals. What exactly do you want out of your career and your life? And is a graduate degree required to do that? Or at what point will graduate education be connected to your long term professional career? As there are more jobs that are gonna be required in the future with graduate degrees, I want individuals to be prepared. The second thing is, for me, this book and the work that I do is to help individuals make a more informed decision about the funding of their degree, about what type of degree they wanna do, where they wanna do it at, how much did he commit to that. These are some of the questions that we ask in the book like how do I select my program is the question and how do I pay for graduate school is one of the 20 questions and what types of student loans can I use is another question? I want individuals to go through a guide step by step of identifying what this process entails. And then after the at the conclusion of reading it, feel more informed, feel more prepared, able to fully engage in the application process successfully. And so far, I mean, majority of the students who have used this book have been able to get into graduate school with no problems. And so for me, I know that the work is meaningful because I'm getting messages every day through social media and LinkedIn about the significance this book has had on people's lives. And I'm looking forward to this recent class of 2024 graduating, as well as the new class who's getting ready to start graduate school we have read this book.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:22]: So now that you have written this book and you finish your degree, as you look at the future, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you have for yourself?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:21:35]: So one of the things I love about the graduate degree is the opportunity to engage in critical thinking at a deeper level. The graduate degree provided me an opportunity to really understand when someone says the research says, I know what to do in terms of investigating and digging deeper into that. The graduate degree helped me to be able to unpack information in a way. The graduate degree helped me to become a better translator. Tell people the reason why I got a graduate degree is to be able to communicate between the haves and the have nots. Those in academia and those who are not. I I see myself as much of a bridge to higher education. And so the degree prepared me for such.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:22:16]: The relationships, the networking that this degree provided me with, the credentialing that it's provided me with, I couldn't have even guessed that that's what it would would would bring for me ultimately. And so for me, as I think about the value of the graduate degree, it sometimes comes down to 4 things for people. You know, how much money it is? Is money the driver? Is networking credentialing the driver? Is always being a researcher or quest a thirst for learning the driver? Or goals? Is it connected to a goal? And so for me, this has done wonders in terms of what I've been able to do. But more importantly, I know that the work that I am doing in the book is changing lives. I know that it is providing inspiration to in the representatives in their family to go to college. For me, I'm the first one of my neighborhood, the first one of my family to obtain the doctoral degree. And that means a lot. And now I know that people who are connected to me see that it's a possibility, and it's one that they probably will choose.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now as you look back at your own experience going through graduate school and your graduate education, what are some tips that you might want to offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:23:39]: First thing I want people to do is to really think through, again, what is your career trajectory? The second thing I want people to do is make a budget. Every person who's thinking about pursuing one of these degrees, whether it be for profit or not for profit, online or in person, you really need to make a budget to see what your current expenses are to identify what your financial needs are. The second thing, and I have a workbook for this on my website, is to think through your skills, your needs, your wants, and your gifts. What are you really gifted at? What are you really skilled at doing? And how is the graduate degree going to be a compliment to that? And to the point that you mentioned earlier about being open to things, I encourage people to really be open to the possibility of what this degree can do for you. I tell folks that there are a lot of opportunities to engage in entrepreneurial efforts through the graduate degree. It's not about just taking a class for the sake of taking it. It is also seeing how you can use that and share that out with the world. The next thing I encourage people to do is to look through and think about the terms and conditions for any student loan.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:24:45]: I know that there are limited options related to student loans but really understand what you're registering and signing up for when you fill out the FAFSA and they are offering you that. I did not read this thoroughly and I wish I would have. So I would have had I had the budget and really thought about how much I needed, I wouldn't have taken out so much. And the next piece of advice I encourage people to really 2 things I will say is think about the supports that you need to be successful in this process. What do you need outside of this? Because I think that for a number of people, everybody I think who starts a graduate program are gifted academic. But what they what helps get people to the end, especially at the doctoral level, is their level of managing resiliency and managing managing difficult moments throughout this experience. Because there will be difficult moments. If you have an advisor, like I had one, a chair, who said, I think your writing is going the wrong direction and you've already submitted chapter 1 through 3.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:25:41]: That is hard to manage. And so when your chair is saying, hey, we're gonna push your your defense back another to the next semester, that is a difficult moment and you need those supports inside and outside of the academic space to walk you through that. And the last thing I will tell people is enjoy the process. Enjoy every aspect of this. From getting the transcripts to hitting submit on your application to starting your first class to enrolling to meeting colleagues, to establishing collegial relationships and professional relationships with faculty. Enjoy all of this. I know it can be very stressful but I don't think people spend enough time enjoying it and recognizing that this is still a small amount of people who possess this degree these degrees. And so the enjoyment piece sometimes comes on the after side of it, right, when you're finished.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:34]: But if you could just celebrate the fact that you wrote your first paper, that you got through the 1st semester, and keep going, you will ultimately finish their degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:43]: Now Justin, if people wanna find your book, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:47]: Go to apply to graduateschool.com. 2 is the the the letters t o. You can also follow us on social media at apply the number 2 g school. Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Doctor. Justin Grimes. And there is where you can find a lot of information, blog posts, resources, copies of the book, and everything else we're doing with the business applied to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:09]: Well, Justin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you're putting out into the world and for what you shared today, and I wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis introduces us to Kim Snodgrass, a current Master of Public Health student at the University of Michigan-Flint. Kim's story is an inspiring testament to perseverance, resilience, and the unyielding spirit to succeed, even after two decades away from the academic world. This blog post delves into her journey, highlighting the challenges she faced, the support systems that guided her, and the lessons she offers to others aspiring to excel in graduate school.

The Decision to Return: A Leap of Faith

Kim Snodgrass's academic journey began over 20 years ago at Marygrove College, where she earned a Bachelor's of Science in Human Nutrition and Foods. Following the sage advice to gain work experience first, Kim spent two decades serving her community through various public health roles, notably within women and infant health programs. It was this hands-on experience that reignited her passion for public health and solidified her decision to pursue a Master of Public Health (MPH) degree.

Choosing the Right Program: Why Public Health and Why U of M Flint?

When Kim decided to return to school, the choice of a Master of Public Health was clear. Her work underscored the importance of addressing social determinants of health—factors like socio-economic status, education, and environment that significantly impact health outcomes. This alignment with her professional experience and aspiration to serve underprivileged communities made the MPH program a natural fit.

For Kim, the University of Michigan Flint stood out for its welcoming community and supportive environment. Unlike larger, impersonal institutions, U of M Flint offered a family-like atmosphere reminiscent of her undergraduate experience at Marygrove College. This sense of community and belonging played a crucial role in her academic success.

Overcoming Obstacles: Embracing Challenges in Graduate School

Returning to graduate school after a long hiatus posed significant challenges, from mastering new technologies to navigating different academic requirements. Kim's primary mode of learning in her undergraduate years had been in-person, but now she had to adapt to online learning platforms like Canvas. The transition was daunting, but U of M Flint's IT support staff played a pivotal role, patiently guiding her through each step.

The challenges did not stop there. Courses like biostatistics proved particularly tough, but with proactive communication and seeking help, Kim turned potential roadblocks into building blocks. She reached out to her professors, took advantage of tutoring services, and relentlessly pursued academic excellence.

Building a Support Network: The Mentor Collective

One of the invaluable resources that Kim credited for her success was the Mentor Collective at U of M Flint. Initially, she was mentored by someone who helped her navigate the intricacies of her program. This mentorship was so impactful that Kim eventually became a mentor herself, guiding others through similar struggles. This support network provided not only academic assistance but also emotional and motivational support.

Practical Applications: From Classroom to Community

The knowledge and skills Kim gained in her MPH program have had a direct impact on her professional life. Working as a dietitian in Detroit, she applies her understanding of social determinants of health to better serve her clients. Questions on her nutrition assessments now include social factors, enabling her to make more informed referrals and provide comprehensive care.

Tips for Future Graduate Students: Setting Up for Success

Reflecting on her journey, Kim offers several tips for prospective graduate students:

1. Research Programs Thoroughly: Understand what each program offers and ensure it aligns with your passions and career goals.
2. Engage with Campus Life: Participate in fairs and events to build connections and immerse yourself in the community.
3. Build a Supportive Network: Surround yourself with peers who uplift you. Engage with mentors and professors proactively.
4. Utilize Campus Resources**: Take advantage of tutoring centers, writing centers, IT support, and other services offered by the institution.
5. Stay Passionate: When challenges arise, remember why you chose this path and let that passion drive you forward.

Kim Snodgrass's journey through graduate school is a compelling narrative of resilience, support, and relentless pursuit of knowledge. Her story underscores the importance of a supportive academic environment and the power of community in overcoming obstacles. Aspiring graduate students can draw valuable lessons from her experience, using her strategies to pave their own paths to success. As Kim continues her journey, aiming even higher with aspirations for a doctorate, her story remains a beacon of inspiration for all those embarking on their academic adventures. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, I know that you're on a journey. You are on a journey to either get into graduate school, get through graduate school, get out of graduate school. There's lots of places that someone may be as you're listening to this. And I love being able to talk to you every week to learn a little bit more about the journey that you're on, but also to help you and to offer some resources, some advice, some things that may be able to make that journey a little bit smoother. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different people that have gone to graduate school, that are in graduate school now, but are working their way through or have gotten out of graduate school that are sharing their experiences with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Because it's important. It's important to be able to listen, to learn, and to be open to seeing ways in which others have gone along that path, have found success in that path, may have struggled in that path, but they've picked themselves up and found that success in the end. That's why every week I do bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share that with you. And they come from all walks of life. They come from all types of educational programs. But no matter what program that they're on, they all had to do something or many things to be able to find the success that they wanted in their graduate school journey. And that's what I'm trying to make sure that you can take out of every episode. And that's why every episode brings you different people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: So this week, I am really excited to be able to bring you a brand new guest. Kim Snodgrass is with us today, and Kim is a current master of public health student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at Marygrove College and along the way ended up in the master's of public health program. So we're gonna be talking about that journey, learning a little more about her, and I'm really excited to have her here. Kim, thanks so much for being here today.

Kim Snodgrass [00:02:36]: Thank you for having me, doctor Lewis. It's such an honor and privilege to be here with you on this podcast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. Really excited to be able to talk with you today and learn a little bit more. And one of the things that I love to do first is to turn the clock back in time. I wanna go back to those undergraduate years. You did your undergraduate years back at Marygrove College. And at some point, it might have been during undergrad. Maybe not. May have been after a few years of working.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: You made a choice. You made a choice to go to graduate school. Talk to me about that progression, that journey, and what led you to decide that going and getting that master's of public health was the right choice for you?

Kim Snodgrass [00:03:20]: Absolutely. So my journey started over 20 years ago. I attended Marygrove College, which is a small Catholic college that was in Detroit, Michigan, and I pursued my bachelor's of science in human nutrition and foods with a concentration minor in natural sciences. And so people always say don't go to grad school right away. Just work for a while, see what you're passionate about, and that was absolutely the best advice because I really didn't know what I wanted to get my master's degree in. I looked at getting a master's of nutrition, but that wouldn't have gone very well for me because I'm more in the community public health space. That's where I can be utilized the most and where I like to be. So I was out of school for 20 years, which is a very long time, and I decided, hey, I need to go back for my master's degree, and public health would be a wonderful, degree for me to obtain. I feel that it really combines well with having a nutrition background and wanting to work in the community. I spent several years working at the infant the women, infants, and children program, which is known as WIC, and working at maternal infant health program. So they were both in the community and public health space, and so here I am. U of M Flint has been an exceptional place for me to be. Everyone's so open and welcoming. They said, Kim, you've been out of school for 20 years, but we're gonna help you. We're gonna help you. We're gonna guide you, and, absolutely, that's what's happened for me. All my professors have been very helpful. They referred me to the writing center because they know I've been out of school for a long, long time, so I was able to utilize those services. Had a couple of hard courses, biostatistics. A shout out to Doctor. Sally. That class is exceptionally challenging but U of M Flint was there to help me through their tutoring service since doctor Sally tutored me personally. And so it's just been a very wonderful journey.

Kim Snodgrass [00:05:13]: One that I've recruited people to come to U of M Flint just because the program is such a wonderful program. And in being a dietitian so I've been a dietitian for 20 years. Right now, they're requiring that all dietitians have their master's degree entering into the program. I would have been grandfathered in, but I didn't wanna come along on this journey knowing that all my colleagues will have their master's degree, and I did not. And so that again prompted me to go back for my master's degree. So being at U of M Flint, I'm about halfway through with my program, and that's exciting to me. And, really, on this journey, I I realized that I love being in school. I actually wanna pursue my doctorate in public health, and so I feel that with U of M Flint, having that background, having that knowledge, and learning so much, it's really just helped me grow even in my professional career. So I'm just excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So as you mentioned, it's been a long journey. You worked for a number of years, And as you were working and identified that you wanted to do more community work, you made a decision to go to graduate school. You chose to do a master of public health. Talk to me about, 1, why a master of public health? You probably could have choose to chosen a number of different types of degrees that are out there. But why that program? And then even more so, why the University of Michigan Flint?

Kim Snodgrass [00:06:35]: Well, so those are very good questions. So public health because I'm concerned about people and their social determinants of health. I'm concerned about people who are underprivileged and under represented. I grew up in Detroit, Michigan and very poor product of a single parent home. And so looking at the social determinants of health, how that affects someone, where they live, where they grow, where they work, how it affects their health outcomes, and just their life period, that intrigues me. And being able to have that knowledge to be able to serve the underprivileged and underserved population, I know that I can be a change agent, and U of M Flint has helped me to do that. And why did I choose U of M Flint? Because, hey, it's U of M. It's an exceptional school.

Kim Snodgrass [00:07:21]: And when I visited the campus, I met the professors. I met, all the people there. Everyone's so open and welcoming, and so I felt at home there. I actually felt like I was back at Marygrove. It reminds me a lot of Marygrove because it's just a family type of feeling, and people really take you under their wings. They guide you. They make sure that you're on the right track. They don't leave you behind.

Kim Snodgrass [00:07:44]: I feel like they're there to help you. And me having I'm an older learner. I've been out of school a long time. People didn't look at me and look at me like I was different. They say, hey. Can we know that you'll have some challenges, but we're gonna help you get through those challenges? And I am a true success story, and I just I'm so thankful to all my professors for believing in me, spending extra hours after class to tutor me on Saturdays, tutoring me. They didn't have to do that, but they wanted to pour into me because they saw my potential, and I really appreciate that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: Now going back to school after 20 years of not being in school is a transition, and even going from undergrad to graduate school is a transition. There's a difference in the way that you're educated, a different difference in the way that you have to to act and to provide knowledge back to the class. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what you had to do. As you transitioned back into graduate school. No, As you transitioned into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Kim Snodgrass [00:08:59]: So, again, a really good question because I feel like I'm an in person learner. My undergraduate classes, all my classes were in person. With U of M Flint being so far for me, it's about an hour and a half drive from where I live, I'm pretty much an online student. So becoming more familiar with technology, I actually had to reach out to U of M Flint IT just to help me get on Canvas and to know how to navigate to be an online student, but they walked me through the process over the phone. They were exceptional. I was on the phone literally crying like, look. I'm a old person trying to navigate, and they were like, you don't have to worry. We got you.

Kim Snodgrass [00:09:38]: And it just made me feel so at ease that they were able to walk me through the process. They would not let me off the phone until I was in the system, knew how to operate Canvas, and they made things seamless for me. Just being able to say, okay. How do I go to the online library? When I was at Marygrove, we were on the card catalog. We had to actually flip through little pieces of paper to find books. Now everything is online. So I was able to go to the library, the U of M Flint librarians helped me navigate the online library system. They helped walk me through things over the phone.

Kim Snodgrass [00:10:14]: They did not leave me behind. They helped me with research. The writing center helped me a lot because the way I wrote papers in Marygrove was in the MLA style. Now pursuing my Miles per hour, I have to write everything at APA. So, again, the writing center, they will proofread my papers. They will say, hey, Kim. You did this great, but you didn't do that great, and we're gonna help you. You gotta cite your sources this way.

Kim Snodgrass [00:10:35]: You have to not use a whole bunch of direct quotes. You have to learn how to paraphrase. You went to graduate school now. So from the librarians to the writing center to IT, everyone has been exceptionally helpful because they know that I needed those services and that I had challenges. So going from undergraduate being in person to graduate being online, U of M Flint made that possible, and it hasn't been hard for me at all because I've had someone walk me through the process every step of the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]: Now I heard you say you struggled. And one of the things that I know you talked about was statistics. And that was something that you said that one of your faculty members really worked closely with you on. And sometimes in graduate school, you hit that proverbial wall. You hit a point where you question yourself, you question your ability in the program. A lot of times people call it the imposter syndrome. But a lot of times there is a point, whether it's in your 1st term, in the middle of your program, your last term, there probably is going to be some point where you hit that. Talk to me about that, in that struggle that you hit, and what you had to do to overcome that to come out on the back end successful in the journey that you're on?

Kim Snodgrass [00:11:55]: So absolutely. So U of M Flint has this wonderful program called the Mentor Collective, and I actually had a mentor when I first started that helped me navigate through the system and learn all the things that I could utilize to be successful. Fast forward, I'm a mentor in the Mentor Collective because I had someone carry me under their wings. And so what they told me to do is if you're having problems in your classes with your professor, you need to reach out to your professor. Don't wait till the very end when you're failing to say, hey. I didn't get anything. So that was very helpful information that my mentor at the time shared with me. Going through biostatistics class, I talked to my professor.

Kim Snodgrass [00:12:35]: I let her know that I was struggling, that I was not doing well, not comprehending a lot of information. So she took additional time with me after class. She took additional time with me on the weekends, and then U of M Flint also had tutoring services that was very helpful to me as well. So again, talking to my professors, engaging with tutors, no one let me fall by the wayside. They ensured my success, and you just have to be proactive. You can't wait till the last minute. If you're having a problem, you need to reach out to the appropriate people and let them know that you need help, and they will be there to help you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Now I know you're still in the program. You're working toward the end and and getting to that there's that light at the end of the tunnel for yourself. As you've been going through this program for yourself, talk to me about how you've been able to utilize the information that you are learning in the work that you do daily.

Kim Snodgrass [00:13:26]: So absolutely. So being a dietitian and working in the Detroit community, I'm able to look at a patient and kinda go through their assessment, and I ask them their social determinants of health questions on my nutrition questionnaire about if a patient is struggling with food. Do you have access to food? Are you struggling with putting food on your table for you and your children? So there's questions about the social determinants of health on my nutrition assessment. If that patient is struggling, I'm able to make certain referrals for those patients. I'm able to refer them to different programs so that they can have food delivered to their homes, to their porches, even if they have transportation issues. Knowing all about the social determinants of health, what that entails, it's allowed me to become a better dietitian. It's allowed me to better service my clientele in the Detroit community because I know what they need help with. And so I'm able to look at them, ask those questions, make those assessments, and better service them because we need people to eat.

Kim Snodgrass [00:14:27]: If you don't eat, you struggle, you know, to learn. You struggle to do good at work, and you need food for energy. And so being able to make those connections, I feel, has made me a better clinician, and that's exceptional because I've been a clinician for 20 years. But this program, looking at what we need to better service inner city people, which I used to be a inner city person. I grow grew up in Detroit. It's allowed me to become a better dietitian, and that makes me feel really good about myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:56]: Now as you look back at the journey that you've been on through graduate school and you think about what you've learned along the way, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate school, whether it be for a master's in public health or something else that would help them find success sooner?

Kim Snodgrass [00:15:12]: So it's good to go on the website of the school that you're looking at. For instance, you have in Flint. Look at the programs. See what intrigues you. See what speaks to you. See what you're passionate about because you're gonna need to be passionate about a subject because when it gets hard, you have to remember that this is something that you really, really wanna do, and so that's gonna help you pull through. You're gonna have to surround yourself with students and people who will bring you up, meaning you have to have a core group, people that you can study with, call on the phone, and go over information with because they can help you along the way. So I say get a core group, especially when you first start out.

Kim Snodgrass [00:15:50]: Go to all the fairs that they have at campus because in drenching yourself in campus life, you get to know people, people that can say, you know what, Kim? You would do good in this program. You would do good in in joining this, and that's gonna help you because I feel like it's not all about school work. It's about making those connections. It's about building those lasting relationships and it's about networking because you'll be out of school one day and you want to build those relationships and networks so that when you graduate you have people that can possibly write you recommendation letters or say, hey. This job will fit you well. You wouldn't be able to have those things if you didn't make those connections and if you didn't network. And then also building those positive relationships with your professors via email, via Zoom calls, via in person interaction. I feel like my professors, they all know me because Kim has questions.

Kim Snodgrass [00:16:41]: Kim's gonna ask and they know I'm very verbal and they're very understanding. I mean, these are some of the best professors that I would say are out there because they're not just thorough and they're not just educated, but they also have compassion, and they also have empathy, and they also know how to bring things down to your personal level. I can remember being in class, and one of my professors asking me a definition. And I gave them the verbatim book definition that they kept in layman's terms. And they know because you need to be able to break information down so that everyone can understand. And that's what our professors do. They really care. They have a heart for you because they want you to learn.

Kim Snodgrass [00:17:16]: They want you to grow, and they want you to be able to go out into the world and teach other people what you've learned here at U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:23]: Well, Kim, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being willing to share some advice as well, and I truly wish you all the best.

Kim Snodgrass [00:17:32]: Thank you so much, Dr.Lewis. I really appreciate that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on a journey through graduate school is a significant undertaking, filled with challenges and opportunities for growth. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Ja'Nel Jamerson, the CEO of the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, to delve into Ja'Nel's educational journey and the lessons he learned along the way. This blog post will explore key insights shared by Ja'Nel Jamerson, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently enrolled in graduate programs.

Falling in Love with Your Subject

Ja'Nel emphasizes the importance of falling in love with your subject when pursuing a graduate degree. Whether studying law, education, or any other field, passion plays a crucial role in driving your success. By immersing yourself in your subject matter and connecting all aspects of your learning to it, you can make the educational experience more engaging and meaningful. Ja'Nel's advice underscores the value of being unapologetic about your pursuit and leveraging that passion to fuel your academic journey.

Building a Strong Network

Another key takeaway from Ja'Nel's discussion is the significance of building a strong network during your time in graduate school. The connections you make with peers and professors can have a lasting impact on your career trajectory. These relationships provide a support system, offer valuable insights, and open doors to collaborative opportunities. Ja'Nel's personal experience highlights how the network cultivated in graduate school can serve as a valuable resource in professional endeavors, underscoring the importance of fostering these connections.

The Value of Work Product

Ja'Nel emphasizes the value of the work produced during graduate studies, noting that the process of articulating and defending your ideas is instrumental in developing critical skills. The ability to construct persuasive arguments supported by data, adapt to new information, and defend your positions is essential for effective leadership. By honing these skills throughout graduate school, students can enhance their capacity to navigate complex challenges and contribute meaningfully to their respective fields.

Balancing Theory and Practice

A crucial aspect of Ja'Nel's journey is the balance between theory and practice. He underscores the importance of integrating academic knowledge with real-world experience, highlighting the symbiotic relationship between the two. By finding programs that honor this balance and cater to mid-career professionals or those seeking to advance their skills, individuals can bridge the gap between theoretical concepts and practical application, enhancing their impact in their professional roles.

Ja'Nel Jamerson's insights offer valuable guidance for individuals navigating the graduate school journey. From fostering a deep passion for your subject to leveraging networks and honing critical skills, his experiences underscore the multifaceted nature of graduate education. By embracing these lessons, current and prospective graduate students can enhance their academic experiences, cultivate meaningful connections, and equip themselves with the tools needed for success in their chosen fields. As you embark on your own graduate school journey, remember Ja'Nel's advice: fall in love with your subject, nurture your network, and value the work you produce as you balance theory and practice.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have conversations with you about this journey that you're on. Every week, we are going through the process of looking at grad school, and looking at what does it actually take to find success in this journey? And I say journey because it is a journey. Every step of the process is going to be a little bit different for every person. And your process of going to grad school, going through grad school is gonna be different than what I went through. But there are commonalities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: There are things that you can learn from others that have gone before you. And through those experiences, through what you learned from others, you can take those tools, add them to your toolbox, and help you to make good choices as you go through this process to help you find success sooner. That's why every week I love bringing you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, and they come from all walks of life. And this week we've got another great guest with us today. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today. Anyway, Doctor. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doctor Jamerson is the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, and we'll talk about that journey that he was on to move to that point in his career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: But we're also gonna talk about his educational journey and what it took for him to be able to get in, get through, and find success. Ja'Nelle, thanks so much for being here today.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:06]: Definitely. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: You know, first and foremost, what I wanna do is I wanna go back in time. I wanna turn that clock back, and I wanna go all the way back to those first moments that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, And at some point at some point, you decided from going and getting that degree in English language and literature that at some point during that point in time you said, You know what? I'm going to keep going, and I'm going to get my secondary education and teaching master's degree. So talk bring me back to that point and talk to me about that first step of what made you decide to take that jump and go to grad school.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:49]: You know, I was coming up on the end of my undergrad experience at Flint, and throughout undergrad, I worked in the office of opportunity initiatives or EOI. And I was offered an opportunity to become the assistant manager for pre college programs, the same pre college programs that I have participated in since I was an 8th grade student at Longfellow Middle School in Flint. And so I was deeply committed to the programs. I was deeply committed to the university, but I knew that a bachelor's in arts in English didn't give me enough discipline. Right. That I would need to, to really strengthen the pathways for underserved students coming from very similar situations that I came from to the university. And so I looked at a number of places and then applied to graduate school all over the state, but just found the program at U of M Flint to be so unique. It just really harnessing, I think, the university's unique positioning as an an urban centered institution.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:03:46]: Most people who, who are trained as teachers, they, they student teach for a semester. I student taught for 2 years in 3 different schools. Right, as a graduate student who already had discipline in English. And so my 2 years of graduate experience was all discipline in the science and in the art of teaching. And so it was complimentary to the work that I was doing as a staff member of the university. There were there were obvious benefits to being able to pursue my graduate degree while being a staff member. And so it, it made the most sense. People say like, man, Ja'Nelle, you got every degree you ever gotten from U of M Flint.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:04:18]: And I tell people that the university has always made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And I think that that's just a really clear experience being 22 years old right at the end of a of an under 21, actually at the end of an undergrad experience. Getting my first leadership opportunity offered to me before I even had the the ink was even dry on my BA and then also having the opportunity to go directly into graduate school. Again, it was just one of those offers that I couldn't refuse.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:43]: Well, you kind of just jumped into really my next question, which was you stayed at the University of Michigan Flint, not only for a master's degree. You went on and you got an educational specialist degree, then you went and continued on and got an educational doctorate degree. And I guess first and foremost, one of the questions that I would ask would be is you jump from being going and getting the the teaching degree into the EDS and EdD, which the EDS is very administratively focused. And then the EDD is administratively focused in some aspect, but also research focused. So talk to me about why the EDS, why the EDD, as you were looking at your career?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:23]: You know, Chris, there's a why and there's a how. And I think my story at at Flendon Graduate school are, is, is very unique in both of those ways. The why is really much more related to that question around discipline. I had a bachelor's degree in English. Right? And it was something that I understood well. But in my master's degree, right, I was able to really focus in on the art and science of teaching. The the ed specialist is administratively focused, but it depends on which pathway you take. There are 2 pathways, the education leadership pathway and the curriculum and instruction pathway.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:53]: And my ed specialist is in curriculum and instruction, really leaning in, right, on not only how do you teach, but how do you build tools that respond to a number of pedagogical approaches. And again, that discipline really kind of scaffolded up to what I would consider a very administratively focused doctorate degree in education leadership, really focusing in education administration. And so I think that for all professionals, we, we want to strike a balance between our professional experiences, what we do every day and the technical skills and training that we receive through graduate school, through professional development. And I think that pathway for me being able to really build discipline in my subject, right, in a way that I appreciate language and I can teach, I can see language in math and I can see language in art and I can see language in history, but then really having to lean in on how do you lead from within individuals, a passion for that subject as well. That's the experience I got from U of M Flint in my masters of teaching, figuring out then how you make that replicable and scalable in a way that produces an outcome for all kids and families, that's where my discipline was built in my education specialist in curriculum and instruction. And then finally, making sure that those systems can exist despite the context in urban context, in rural context, in in suburban context is really the focus of of the doctoral degree. So that so that scaffolded approach to me also with a very consistent, I would say, theory of change being at the same university who was evolving within the urban context. 2008, when I started at U of M Flint was a very different community than 2015, right? When I, when I finished graduate school, post in the middle of the recession in my freshman year, deleting into the water crisis, COVID pandemic, U of M Flint has really evolved in a way that working in the city day to day, what I was learning in graduate school, I was able to deploy immediately, or my professors became my colleague, that type of reciprocity between graduate school and my professional experience was really valuable for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:57]: You know, I'd love to have you go back in time again and think about the transitions because the way that you are educated as an undergraduate student, different than the way that you're educated as a graduate student. And I say that in the sense that transitioning from a bachelor's to a master's, that's one transition. But then you take about 3 years off, and you transition back into an EDS, and then go immediately on to an EDD. But at each of those levels, you're being challenged in different ways to think about things in different ways, to process things in different ways, and your faculty have different expectations. So talk to me about what you had to do throughout each of those transitions to not only prepare yourself well for success, But what did you have to do to be able to truly make that optimal transition in and through the program and maintain that success throughout the different programs that you went through?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:03]: Yeah. I think the first step in each of those transitions is building the confidence to believe that you can make the transition. We almost idolize things like graduate degrees and because, you know, fewer and fewer individuals have them as you go through the kind of proportion of society, they become kind of mysterious if you will. And so really just building up the confidence to say that, Hey, I can demystify this thing. I can do this. I think that's the first step in the transition. I can remember I was looking at all of those different master's programs, and I picked up the phone and called the number on the UN Flint site and got doctor Mary Jo Finney in the college of education. You know, she's the director of the program, but that was the first person who I spoke to.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:40]: And she just convinced me that this was the right program. Frankly, my GPA wasn't, it didn't match what was on the website. And so again, this whole confidence thing, right, it's it's big because you look at things like that and you say, okay, I don't qualify. Maybe I should move on. But there's always this line about the mix of education and experience. And I don't know that that people really understand how valuable that mix is, right, when you're deciding on a graduate experience. And so my experience as a, you know, a pre college programs leader, as a student in urban education, as someone who was deeply committed to teaching and learning, that was compelling to the University of Michigan, Flint. And while it was compelling to others as well, I was doubling down on a commitment that the university had already made to me.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:10:22]: So I knew my way around campus. I didn't have to figure out where to hang up my coat kind of deal. And so once once kind of getting past the confidence factor, I remember getting into my first graduate course and realizing that these aren't all people who are, who went to undergrad at you in Flint with me, but that once you're moving into the graduate level at the university, you're really moving into a much more regional constituency of mostly educational leaders who are practicing, who are either retooling or leveling up, right, their skills in the field. And so very quickly for me being immediately out of undergrad, sitting in a, in a graduate class with who still I consider to be some of the most profound educational leaders. And we were a cohort, so I still know who they are. I remember my notes on the first day. I just had a long list of words down the margin, just terms I hadn't heard before. And it's like, man, I gotta look these up in order to really to, to perform on par with my peers.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:15]: And so I would say that, you know, that can be jarring. And so it kind of takes you back to that confidence factor, obviously. But I think that what I ultimately realized is that the graduate experience is really about the unique contribution that each learner brings to the space. It's not solely about the course and the syllabus. Those will be whatever they are, but what you're doing with that subject, right, it's really the beauty of graduate school, the path between the assignment and the right answer. I mean, you can, depending on what your passion is, there's a lot of different approaches that you can take. And my master's program, that was revealed to me. We would take on issues like student, you know, student attendance and people who really cared about social emotional learning would dive deeply into social emotional approaches.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:57]: And people who were real disciplined, most all words, they would lean into the discipline policies that were necessary to address these things. But you realize that that the right answer is really leaning into the thing that you're passionate about and figuring out how do you leverage the resource of this university to make you more disciplined in that passion. And so that's what I learned in my master's degree. And I, and I, and again, it was all about teaching. And so I came out of graduate school as a much more confident leader, as much more confident learner, frankly, and realizing that there was real power in just asking questions that the smartest people in this world are those who know what they don't know. And I took 3 years to really discover the things that I don't know to, to take my master's degree and slam it on the table and realize that there's not a whole lot there. There's a lot undergirding it, but only practice would strengthen with the tools that I have received from from my master's program. And I earned an executive director role and transitioned from teaching into nonprofit leadership and really realized that what happened in my classroom was really an effect of what was going on at a much larger systemic level in part, right? That the curriculum that I taught every day and I could, you know, I could schedule it out.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:08]: I could figure out how to make it my own, but that curriculum was directed by someone who had a set of values. And if we're not addressing curriculum from the values and outcomes level, then what we're doing in classrooms will likely be limited. I realized that in those 3 years, my nonprofit leadership, and we were getting into the early childhood space, and I actually was in a meeting, Bob Barnett. He said, Ja'Nelle, have you ever thought about getting a NET specialist? And I said, no. I mean, he said, you know, you, we let's have lunch. You should really consider it. And that lunch, he made me aware of a number of graduate funding opportunities available at the university in a way that really made my education specialist degree know the low cost. And so while I wasn't considering it, it was a legitimate pathway to a doctorate degree, which I did have aspirations for.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:50]: I did have interest in curriculum, and the university had a mix of funding sources available for graduate students, particularly those who were practicing in in Genesee County. It was an opportunity. So that transition again, another offer that I couldn't refuse, let me into curriculum and instruction. And in that space, you're beginning to realize that this is about administration. This is not about, this is not about operationalizing what administration directs. This is about directing. And so when there's a different transition there, when you're realizing that what you're not subordinate, if you will, to your professors, right? These are colleagues, these are peers. You need to really hone in on the experience that they're bringing into that classroom.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:14:30]: Interrogate it, challenge it, challenge yourself and your assumptions, because you pay for that safe space. You pay to say the thing that maybe is wrong and would be embarrassing to say in your daily context. But here, no, you can really deal with this, Write a paper about it, if you will. So my ed specialist allowed for me who I had a teaching degree, but I didn't get the experience of teaching for a long period of time in the way that many of my colleagues and peers did. It allowed for me to interrogate a lot of my assumptions about curriculum and about. Instruction. And I think that just set me up well for my doctorate degree when I when I knew that now it's my opportunity to contribute to the field, that mix of not for profit leadership and education preparation and pre college programs. It really led me tightly to a clear dissertation topic that I would be thinking about regardless of if I was in an education program or not.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: So talking about that and talking about the end of the journey, you completed your degrees. You were successful in the journey for all three of those degrees or all four of those degrees. Now that you've completed your EDS, your EdD, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received, not only the EDS and EdD, but the masters as well, has prepared you for what you're doing as the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:15:57]: I think that, you know, I've been it's not only the degree, but it's the context on which it was earned. And so being able to earn graduate degrees as a practitioner, not having to choose between, do I take this job opportunity that allows me to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking about this thing or this great educational experience, but being able to integrate those? It's given me an interesting tool belt. I think I have a good balance between must see how and must know why. I'm a practitioner for sure, but I'm also a researcher. And I think that being able to, to balance those 2 imperatives, but not see them as independent of one another, but really as interconnected and interdependent is the unique, I think, set of skills of of that scaffolded experience from me walking moving from a very implementation granular level of classroom teaching. What are we doing with 30 kids in a room with a highly qualified teacher? Moving up to what does that look like at a system level in my education specialist degree, but then being able to fully explore what does it look like with multiple organisms, if you will, at an ecosystem level and my doctoral degree, making it to the Flood Center For Educational Excellence. This entire work is about building an educational ecosystem that works for all kids. And that means regardless of where they go to school, right, regardless of their family context, regardless of their neighborhood context.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:17:20]: And so the discipline that I built in my education specialist and replicability and scalability of education interventions, yeah, it's very relevant to this work. The 2 years that I spent in classrooms teaching for free as a student teacher in Detroit, very relevant to the work that we do with our network for school excellence and working with instructional leaders across multiple school systems to improve outcomes from Flint Kids. And then ultimately my work in researching how philanthropic foundations influence education reform and small to midsize urban school districts is extremely relevant. And the work that we're doing every day to harness the philanthropic interests, of of our community, connect that those passions and those interests with real opportunities and outcomes related to kids thriving. So a lot of relevance, I caution everyone who's seeking to further their education through graduate school, that it's the balance between, between theory and practice that I think is really the sweet spot and finding a program that honors that balance for where you are in your career. If you're taking a break, right? And you wanna lean all the way in, find a program that allows you to lean all the way in. If you're at a point in your career where you know that you need to advance or you feel that you need more discipline, right. To undergird your practice, find a program that's really focused on a mid career professional.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:18:35]: Who's working every day, but is really willing to lean in every single night to build their discipline. So it's prepared me for sure, but as a practitioner, I'm learning more and more every day, but that ability to learn that ability to interrogate a new issue that may be complex, I would say that muscle I've built, since from that first day as a graduate student with my list of words and terms down my margin to completing my doctorate of education, and that's a muscle that I've definitely built.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]: So as you think back to the graduate degrees and the graduate experiences that you've had and you think about students that are coming along behind you, no matter if they're going through an education degree at a graduate level or if they're going to law school, they're going chiropractic school, doesn't matter. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:19:33]: The first thing I I would say is just to really fall in love with your subject, whatever it is. So if you're going to law school and people say like, oh, yeah. I should really love the law. It's like I've met a lot of lawyers. I've never met anyone who really just loves the law. I mean, like, what is your subject? What is the thing that you will be thinking about that you would be doing that you care about regardless of what context that you're in? And there's likely opportunities to explore that through graduate education. So I say if you've made the decision to apply to graduate school, if you're already in graduate school, to be unapologetic about your subject and to really fall in love with it. Right? When you have an opportunity to write, write about your subject.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:20:13]: Right? When you have an opportunity to talk about your subject because that's going to make the work effortless. It becomes an opportunity almost to get this thing off your chest, this thing that you will be talking about anyway. So one major tip again would just be to fall in love fall in love with subject and be unapologetic about pursuit of it, no matter what path you've chosen from a graduate perspective. The second would be to really, honor, appreciate, and value the network that exists within any graduate classroom that they're in, their peers and colleagues who sit next to them, but also the professors who are imparting information on them. Many of my professors throughout my graduate education are now my peers and colleagues as chief executives of not for profits or other organizations in Genesee County and in Michigan. And so building rapport with those individuals in a way where social capital already exists, it really has downstream value for you professionally. And I would say that that's true of wherever you find yourself in grad school. And the same thing with your peers.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:21:14]: I tell people all the time that I didn't get the opportunity to teach as long as many of my peers did, but I was educated next to some of the most powerful educators that that that this ecosystem will likely ever, ever experience. And I could pick up the phone and call any of them. Having that network, you don't realize until you're in your office by yourself with the decision to make, and there's no more time to consider this thing. The value of being able to pick up the phone and call someone who understands the context in which you're leading from, but also understands, right, that the the outcome that that you're leading towards and has really had to wrestle with these concepts with you. And so, yeah, I just really value the network that exists, that is imparted on you in graduate school and and don't take it for granted. I'd say, lastly, you know, really hold on to your work product. The entire experience is scaffolded in a way that pushes you as a learner to get what is in your head out, right, in a way that really allows for your deeply held beliefs related to your profession or your subject, if you will, to be interrogated publicly. And, I mean, you don't really know the value or you really don't know how much so strongly you can believe in something until you have to defend it.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:22:29]: But that ability to make an argument defensible, to support an argument with data, to change an argument, if that data tells you something different, those are important skills for leadership that are transferable, I believe. So I just think those three things just really falling in loving falling in love with subject and being unapologetic about connecting all things to it, just really just honoring and valuing that network that that's available to you through graduate school. But then just lastly and certainly not least, just connecting all of those things together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:02]: Great points, and I truly appreciate you sharing all of those. Definitely things that every person should consider if they're thinking about going for a graduate degree, applying for a graduate degree, and spending the time, the effort, the money to go through that process, to push yourself in so many different ways. Juno, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for all of the pearls of wisdom, for all that you've shared today, and I truly wish you all the best.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:23:29]: Definitely. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on the path to becoming a physician assistant is a significant journey filled with challenges, growth, and invaluable experiences. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, host Dr. Christopher Lewis had a compelling conversation with graduating physician assistant student Hannah Richard. The dialogue delved deep into Hannah's personal journey, from her decision to pursue a career as a PA to navigating the rigorous demands of PA school. Let's explore key insights and reflections shared by Hannah as she transitions from student life to professional practice.

Discovering the Path to PA School:

Hannah's journey to PA school began with a spark of curiosity and intrigue during her high school anatomy class. Like many aspiring PA students, she was drawn to the profession's blend of medical knowledge and patient care. The process of deciding to pursue graduate education in physician assistant studies involved navigating challenges, doubts, and ultimately reaffirming her commitment to this rewarding career path.

Preparing for PA School:

As Hannah shared, the preparation for PA school goes beyond academic readiness. It requires gaining hands-on experience, accruing clinical hours, and honing essential skills to thrive in the demanding environment of a PA program. From working as a certified nurse assistant to learning procedures and patient assessment, each experience contributed to Hannah's preparedness for the rigorous journey ahead.

Navigating the Challenges of PA School:

PA school is a transformative experience that demands flexibility, resilience, and self-awareness. Hannah highlighted the importance of listening to oneself, understanding when to push forward and when to prioritize self-care. The transition from didactic learning to clinical rotations brings unique challenges, requiring students to adapt their study methods, collaborate with peers, and maintain a balance between academic rigor and personal well-being.

Reflections on Professional Preparedness:

As graduation approaches, Hannah reflects on how her PA school experience has equipped her for the next chapter in her professional journey. The diverse backgrounds and experiences of her classmates have enriched her learning, preparing her to navigate the complexities of patient care with confidence and competence. From mastering procedures to building practical skills, PA school has laid a solid foundation for Hannah's transition into the healthcare workforce.

Advice for Aspiring PA Students:

Drawing from her own experiences, Hannah offers invaluable advice to future PA students embarking on their graduate school journey. She emphasizes the importance of embracing all aspects of life during PA school, from academic pursuits to extracurricular involvement and mental health support. By actively engaging with resources, seeking mentorship opportunities, and maintaining a holistic approach to education, students can maximize their success and personal growth throughout their PA school experience.

Hannah Richard's journey from student to graduating physician assistant is a testament to the dedication, passion, and resilience required to thrive in the field of healthcare. Her insights offer a glimpse into the multifaceted nature of PA education, emphasizing the significance of self-awareness, adaptability, and community engagement in fostering success. As aspiring PA students navigate their own paths, Hannah's story serves as an inspiring reminder of the transformative power of perseverance, learning, and embracing the full spectrum of experiences on the road to becoming a healthcare professional.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on this journey with you. This opportunity to talk to you every week about what you're doing to find success in this journey that you're on. Now you might be just starting to think about grad school. You might be in grad school. You might be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're almost done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: Wherever you are in this journey, it is a journey. And every person that goes through what you're going through, goes through a unique journey for themselves. What's important is that you have some tools in your toolbox as you apply, as you go through graduate school that you can draw upon to be able to find success on that journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about finding ways to be able to help you to find success earlier in that process, to be able to help you to learn more about what you need to be doing as you, as I said, apply, go through and go beyond. So every week, I love being able to bring you different people. People that have gone through grad school, that are going through grad school, and have had different experiences. But those experiences have led them to find success in that journey that they went on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: And today, we have another great guest with us. Hannah Richard is with us today. And Hannah is a graduating physician assistant student from the University of Michigan Flint. She's actually graduating this term and heading off into her professional career. We just talked and talked about her future, and she has a job ready to go, going to be working on the west side of Michigan as a PA in an emergency room, just what just what she wanted to do. So she I know she's really excited about that. She's got a lot of things happening in her life. But throughout that experience, she's been able to find success, and I'm excited for her to share that journey with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: Hannah, thanks so much for being here today.

Hannah Richard [00:02:26]: I'm excited to be here as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Well, I'm really excited that you are here today. And I guess let's turn the clock back in time. I would love for you to talk to me about the journey that you went on to be able to, at some point, through that undergraduate experience, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's degree to be able to get that master's degree, and especially masters in physician assistant studies. So talk to me about what went through your head that made you decide that graduate school was

Hannah Richard [00:03:04]: right for you? Yeah. So I think similar to a lot of other master students or for that matter, PA students, we kind of all had a similar epiphany. Maybe in like high school or college. We came into contact with PA's or became aware of the profession. My journey is similar to that. I took an anatomy class in high school and I was really shocked with how much I was intrigued by it. And prior to that, I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to do in college. And I had time, you know, I was a junior in high school.

Hannah Richard [00:03:34]: And then I started college, and I made my major right away, a general health science degree. And then the university that I went to, Grand Valley, they had a pre PA emphasis, meaning that you could take prerequisite courses and still earn a degree. So I did that, and I'm not gonna lie. There was definitely a time where I changed my degree from that to a different degree just because I'd heard of the daunting process of PA school and how difficult it is to get in. But somewhere along the line, I came back around to PA. I changed my major back, and I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, and I took the prerequisites as needed. Took classes in the summer to kind of graduate faster, and then I knew I needed some health care hours. So I started working during the summer as well, and it was a little bit more difficult for me to work during the school year.

Hannah Richard [00:04:31]: I actually was a college athlete, so I couldn't have a job and swim and go to school. So that kinda slowed things down, but it all worked out for the better. So I took 2 years off before PA school, and during that time I was applying, and the application cycle is very long. It can take probably up to a year. I I'd say that's how long it took me. But from by the time you apply and then you hear back, and then if you interview, and then if you're accepted. So it was a long journey for me, but I'm glad that I'm almost to the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]: So you took those 2 years off to figure things out and to make that next step for yourself. And in that journey, you applied, I'm sure, to a number of different graduate schools. You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that decision making process, and what made you choose that U of M Flint was the right program for you?

Hannah Richard [00:05:26]: Yeah. So I tell everyone this who asks because actually at one point, during my career here, I was a graduate ambassador, so I kind of told the story a lot. But I went to a open house at U of M Flint for the PA program. This was right before the pandemic started, so I think it was probably February of 2020, and professor Gilkey, who is our director, actually was hosting the event, and I just heard all the wonderful things that they were setting up for this program and the promises of great rotations and excellent education and community service, and I was hooked. I was like, this is where I'd like to go. The campus is really nice, and it's somewhere that I've never really been before, so I said this is where I wanted to go. So like you mentioned, obviously, I applied to other places to cast a wide net, but ultimately, I wanted to end up here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: In those 2 years that you took to prepare yourself for applying, I'm sure that you were getting some experience in preparing in that way too, because I know PA programs do require you to have different experiences to prepare you for coming into becoming a physician assistant. Talk to me about the experiences that you had that prepared you for coming into PA school, and and how did that prepare you, or did you feel unprepared in any way when you entered the program?

Hannah Richard [00:06:51]: Great question. I did some research because I knew I needed to find a way to get hours, and I found out the best way for me personally was going to become a certified nurse assistant, which is stands for CNA. And, I took the class. It was a summer class. I think it was like 2 or 3 weeks. And I got a job in a nursing home, around my college campus. And I did that for as long as I could, and I had to stop because I was then entering my senior year of college. After my senior year of college, I stayed on the west side for a little bit longer and I got another job in a different nursing home, one that was hiring.

Hannah Richard [00:07:31]: And I worked there for a while. And then I came kind of towards the end of the road where I felt like I needed more experience. I was also kind of ready to not work on the weekends, and it's definitely a hard job, and I was ready for something different. So I had some connections which was fantastic which was fantastic. And because I was able to use some of the experiences I had from being a CNA and then learn so many new skills. I learned how to give injections, how to obviously take vitals. I did some charting. I was trained as kind of a part time scribe as well, so I was really grateful for the physicians and PAs and MPs that worked there.

Hannah Richard [00:08:20]: They were willing to train me because they knew that I ultimately wanted to be a PA, and so they kinda pushed me out of my comfort zone. So I will say if I did not have that medical assistant experience, I probably would have struggled a little bit in PA school because, ultimately, we are providers, and we are responsible for charting and just assessing the patient overall, and I think I got a good taste of that when I was working in a

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: physician assistant student, and it is a demanding program. It's a dem it's a demanding sequence of events, didactic learning, clinical learning, taking what you're learning from the class, putting it into action. Talk to me about some of those moments, some of the things that you didn't expect when you entered into PA school that you had to learn for yourself that would have helped you maybe to know earlier?

Hannah Richard [00:09:17]: That is definitely a deep question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is flexibility. I think that when students who were to some degree successful in their undergraduate career because you have to achieve good prerequisite grades and also have a part time job or a full time job getting the hours. I think a lot of us can be kind of set in our ways as far as studying or preparing for certain assessments. And I think the biggest thing PACE will taught me is to be flexible, that some ways of studying won't be the same as they were in college. So I kind of drew on many ways of studying. I would write things out. I would look at charts.

Hannah Richard [00:09:58]: I would read books. I listened to podcasts, which is something I never did before. There's a lot of great PA podcasts, so I think flexibility is one of the biggest things as far as what I had to kind of learn to adapt to. And then I think another thing about PA school that's really interesting is reaching out and being with people in your class. I think in undergraduate studies, I studied a lot alone. And when I was found myself in PA school, I studied with a group of friends frequently, and I think it helped all of our grades and helped all of our comprehension when you're talking and singing out loud. And then, of course, when it comes to patient evaluation course that we have, we have to actually perform the exams on fake patients. And so that was a perfect opportunity to bring in your friends to for that.

Hannah Richard [00:10:49]: So I think flexibility and then just kind of accepting that other people around you has something to share just like you do as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:57]: So you took a couple of years off between your undergraduate work at Grand Valley and then came into grad school. And every student, when they make that transition into graduate school, it is a transition. And you do have to think about things differently, learn differently. You kind of mentioned some of those pieces. Talk to me about what you had to do to truly find success in that transition and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your time in the PA program.

Hannah Richard [00:11:28]: That's a good question. I think one of the biggest things for me was learning to listen to myself. And when I say that, I mean, listening to how I felt. And this changed from didactic year, which is the 1st year of our pro 1st year and a half actually, to clinical year, which is another year. So in didactic, the studying is completely different. But I learned to listen to myself and see how I felt. If I if it was the end of the day and it was after dinner, I was tired. I didn't push myself too hard.

Hannah Richard [00:12:03]: I would, you know, try to commit to maybe, say, 30 minutes of reading out of a textbook versus an hour and a half of studying. And this was especially true in clinical year, which is the year that I'm just completing. And the reason is is because we are driving all over to our rotation sites, and we deal with patients and providers and preceptors, and we still have to go home at the end of the day and study. So I think I really, really tuned into myself how I was feeling. Because if you're too tired and your brain is just zapped, you're not gonna be able to retain information. And I no one told me that before I came into PA school. I think everyone things I had heard would then were just like study, study, study, like, pull all nighters and, you know, do all the stuff that can make you successful. Well, I think that's absolutely absolutely not the case.

Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: I think you have to give yourself grace because we are we're human. And I think that's true for when you practice as a PA.

Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: You can't go, go, go, go and go, go, go, go and not listen to yourself because at the end of the day, the people that will be harmed by that are the patients and then ultimately yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:17]: And now you're getting to the end of your program. And as I said, you have this opportunity now to go out and to start in your career. Talk to me about the learning that you went through, through that didactic learning, through the clinical experiences. How do you feel that that has prepared you for the next step in your own professional journey?

Hannah Richard [00:13:40]: I think it's prepared me really well. I think one of the cool things about preschool is that everyone comes in with different backgrounds, kind of like you mentioned. So while someone may have worked in a nursing home, someone may have worked in a doctor's office, someone may have been a scribe in a hospital. And I think that's really cool and not a lot of professions kind of get that pre master's degree or pre doctorate degree education and learning experience. So I think having different classmates with different specialties prior to b school is is huge. You know, someone may be able to help you on this topic, and others may be able to help you on this exam or procedures. Something that I think gets overlooked to the general public who may not know a lot about PA school is while we're learning this information, we're also learning procedures. So we have days where we learn lumbar punctures and chest tubes and arterial lines and IVs.

Hannah Richard [00:14:36]: And because that is a part of our training. And even if you go into say a cardiology office and you may not use those procedures, you still have to learn them and become competent in them. So kind of to, like, round up your question is, I think it prepared me and my classmates really well, and I think it's something that is just really neat about PA schools that we all have different experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Now earlier, you mentioned that in your time at the University of Michigan Flint, you also acted as an ambassador, and you talked to prospective students. And I guess as you're talking to students specifically about becoming a physician assistant or about applying to becoming a physician assistant down the road. What were some of the biggest concerns, and how did you help those students to deal with those concerns as a ambassador for the program?

Hannah Richard [00:15:33]: Some of the biggest concerns clearly were the application process, and this had very little to do with U M Flint and very much to do with just the standardized process of applying to PA school. So I had a lot of questions, and these students would reach out to me via email, phone call, in person events. Our program hosted showcase night. I don't know how to describe it other than that, but, oh, kind of like an open house. So I would get a lot of questions on, does this prerequisite match this prerequisite? However, that's more difficult to answer because, every undergraduate degree and prerequisite may fit U of M Flint versus a different university. So that was a huge one. I think a lot of hurdles that people were experiencing were finding clinical hours and shadowing hours. I know that COVID kinda changed the landscape of medicine in some good ways and some not so good ways.

Hannah Richard [00:16:32]: So for instance, I know a lot of students struggled to find shadowing hours because the pandemic repercussions lasted for a few years or even ongoing currently. So, not a lot of offices or hospitals wanted kind of an extra student following them around potentially exposing or being exposed to COVID. So and that is something that PA programs almost all absolutely require is shadowing hours because they want to know why you want to be a PA versus a nurse practitioner or an or physician. So that was another big hurdle. And then I think other questions that we got were regarding to our experience in the program. 1 of our professors say that picking a PA program is kind of like dating, So you have to like the program, and they have to like you, which I think is a funny analogy, but it's actually absolutely true. So they wanted to know kind of what our day to day life was like, the subjects we learned, did we have a cadaver lab? Is there on campus coffee stores? And so I was more than happy to answer the dry or mundane questions as far as applications, and then I was equally as happy to tell them about my life. And did I move from Metro Detroit and or did I commute? And I was just happy to kind of share my experience here because I would have absolutely loved to talk to someone like that at any of the programs I applied to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:56]: Now one of the things you just mentioned was the fact that sometimes students are trying to determine and they are asked the question of, okay, why PA? Why not MD? Why not getting a nurse practitioner degree? You made the choice that you wanted to become a physician assistant. And through your undergraduate program, you probably could have been and could have gone the route of MD. What made you decide that PA was right for you?

Hannah Richard [00:18:23]: You know, I used to have this answer down pat and memorized for applications and interviews. And now that almost 3 years have passed, I don't have a standardized answer, which is a good thing. I wanted to be a PA for a few reasons. And one of them was I was looking for a right fit for the kind of life I wanted. I wanted to be out and practicing earlier in my life rather than later. And I think physicians have great lives and great careers. However, their training is obviously longer. So not only do they have 4 years of med school after undergraduate, they have residency, which can be anywhere from 2 years to 4 years to 8 years, depending on the specialty.

Hannah Richard [00:19:08]: So they wanted to be able to practice earlier. Another thing was is that I had a great experience with the PA. In college, I spent a lot of time in the athletic training room. Swimming can be hard on the body, but I was seeing a PA and I was just so intrigued. She was so knowledgeable and she spent so much time with me, and I had really never experienced anything like it. You know, your family doctor is more often than not, especially back when I was growing up in high school and college, a physician. So to have experience with this PA, I was just like taken aback. And especially when I started shadowing the PAs, I shadowed a PA who worked in orthopedic surgery and she was first assisting the surgeon in knee replacement and the hip replacement and a partial knee.

Hannah Richard [00:19:53]: And I was just shocked that you can be a PA. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a physician. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a more, just like a different role. And it just fit really well for me in my life. And I at some point, you have to pick a career and you can't say this or that. You have to just start making progress towards it. And that is for all those reasons I chose to be a PA because ultimately I wanted to practice and treat patients and just provide good care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:28]: Now as you think about people that are coming behind you, whether they're going into becoming a physician assistant or some other career area, but they're thinking about graduate school in general. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every student that is looking for ways to find success sooner in their graduate school experience?

Hannah Richard [00:20:48]: That is a tough question to pinpoint it down to something that would help them to success sooner. I would have to say, continue living your life. And when I say that, I mean, when you're in graduate school, it's very easy to put the blinders on and be a graduate student. Go to class, go to lectures, go to clinicals. But another thing our professor says life does not stop just because you're in PA school. So my advice would be, go to that rec volleyball game, go to the gym with your classmates, attend volunteering events and get involved with things like becoming a graduate ambassador or anything mentoring upcoming students. I think the more you put in, the more you'll get out, and it's very easy to just put your head down, get your degree, and, you know, walk away a successful, successfully licensed PA. But the more that you put in, like I said, the more you'll get out.

Hannah Richard [00:21:49]: So I think use the resources. If you need mental health counseling, take advantage of that at U of M. If you need someone to talk to, if you wanna join a club, if you wanna do anything, I say take advantage of it because once that 28 months are over, your life is And so I knew that I wanted to look back and say, say I did everything I was interested in. And that also included student society. I was a representative for our student association of the state of Michigan. So just do it all. That is my advice to find success earlier.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]: Well, Hannah, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for walking us through this path that you've been on, and I am looking forward to hearing more about your own professional journey as you move forward in your career, and I wish you all the best.

Hannah Richard [00:22:39]: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. And I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and listen to my story. I always say that an attitude of gratitude is best, and I am very grateful for everything that U of M Flint has provided me. And I try to give them back everything that they have given me, including the opportunity to be a physician assistant. So thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umfluent dot eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].