Victors in Grad School

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be daunting, invigorating, and transformative all at once. On a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, listeners were treated to an inspiring and candid conversation with Antonio Riggs, Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan-Flint. Antonio pulled back the curtain on his own educational journey, offering insights that resonate with anyone considering – or currently undertaking – graduate studies.

It's a Journey, Not a Sprint

One of the key themes Antonio shares is that graduate education is a deeply personal and winding journey. Each student's path is unique, shaped by individual aspirations, challenges, and life circumstances. Antonio himself returned to graduate school after working professionally, motivated by seeing mentors advance in their fields through further education. He emphasizes the importance of setting milestones, staying adaptable, and recognizing that detours and delays are a natural part of the process. Sometimes, reaching your goals will take longer than anticipated, and that's perfectly okay.

Mindset Shifts and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Graduate-level learning demands a shift in mindset. Antonio candidly discusses the challenge of managing new expectations, particularly the leap from undergraduate to graduate research and academic rigor. He opens up about his own experiences grappling with imposter syndrome and self-doubt, reassuring listeners that these feelings are common. Antonio's advice? Communication is key. Leaning on faculty, advisors, and your support system can make all the difference.

Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Study

A recurring message is the challenge of balancing academics, professional responsibilities, and personal life. Antonio shares practical strategies—from effective time management to building a strong support network. Whether it's relying on family, collaborating with a partner, or carving out personal time for stress relief, his stories illustrate that success is built on both determination and the willingness to ask for help.

Practical Skills and Lifelong Networking

Throughout the episode, Antonio highlights the invaluable practical skills he developed in graduate school, particularly the power of networking, strong communication, and the ability to apply research and best practices in real-world settings. These aren't just academic skills—they're lifelong assets that have continued to serve him professionally and personally.

Ready to Be Inspired?

If you're contemplating graduate school, already in the trenches, or guiding students in higher education, this episode is packed with wisdom, relatability, and encouragement. Tune in to hear Antonio Riggs' full story and walk away with practical advice for finding your stride and building your own "toolbox" for success.

Listen to the full episode and start your own journey with insight and support!

Ready to explore more? Visit the University of Michigan-Flint's graduate program offerings and tune in to Victors in Grad School for more inspiring stories and tips.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to talk through things, issues, concerns that you may have, and to be able to help you to be able to develop some tools for your toolbox, find some new tools for your toolbox, and identify ways in which you can be successful in this journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every individual that is thinking about graduate school, that's applied to graduate school, that maybe is in graduate school, are going through their own individual journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: You may have similar things happen to you or alongside with other students in your cohort or in your classes together, but you're going to be dealing with them in the way that works for you. And what my goal is, is every week is to be able to provide you with some new resources, some new things that may allow for you to be able to find more success and more success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that help have gone to graduate school before you and have learned some things along the way. Some of the things might be positive, some of the things might be negative. You never know. But I have an opportunity to be able to learn from them and from what they learned so that you will have an easier time down the road as well. So this week we got another great guest. Antonio Riggs is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Antonio is the Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan Flint. And he's been at the University of Michigan flint for over 11 years now. But he's also had a wealth of other opportunities along the way that he has done, working with students and helping students in many different ways. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own educational journey to help you in yours. Antonio, thanks so much for being here today.

Antonio Riggs [00:02:17]: Hey, thank you for having me. Greatly appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: It is completely my pleasure. Really enjoy being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I'm really excited to learn a little bit more about yours. And I know that you did all three of your degrees at Saginaw Valley State University, but you did your bachelor's degree in business administration. And then you went off, you worked for a little bit, but at some point, at some point in that time between graduation and about four years later, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on and work toward a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point where you made that decision for yourself. What made you decide that? And why was it the right time to go to graduate school?

Antonio Riggs [00:03:06]: I guess during the time I graduated and I went to work at another institution, and a couple of my mentors were, they've completed their degrees, their MSAs, Master of Arts and Sciences degrees in Student affairs administration. And when you're around people that are in positions that you aspire to be in, through the process of networking, you learn about the different career paths, you learn about the degree programs, and people share their insights. And I kind of had a set to say, hey, I wanted to get a master's degree in the beginning, I wanted to go business all the way up, right? Get a business degree, get an MBA and then get a PhD in business and teach us some core university teaching, you know, business classes. But then I didn't go that route. I really stayed in student affairs. I enjoyed it. And I had lifelong friends that I've met in the student affairs arena. And so I kind of was like, hey, this is my passion.

Antonio Riggs [00:04:01]: That's where I want to be. And so I was already a student at Saginaw Valley. I knew the program, I knew the buildings under the layout. So it was what, familiar territory for me. And so I saw that they had kicked off a Master of Arts and Sciences with certificate in Student Affairs Administration. And so that's what led me into that role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]: Before I leave this educational journey that you were on, one question that I have is, I know that after you finished that program, you again, you went, you worked for a few more years working at a couple of other institutions, and then at some point, you decided to go back to school to get an education specialist degree. Talk to me about that. Why an education specialist?

Antonio Riggs [00:04:46]: I am a person that like to set goals, and in my goal setting, I like to see my milestones. And so some people will say, yeah, just go jump in a PhD program and, you know, knock out the four to five years and get it over with. But for me, Saginaw Valley, you know, kicked off that MSA program, and I think it was a feeder going into EDD programs, right? The Doctorate of Education programs. And so I think they collaborated with Central, where, hey, you get your specialist from Saginaw Valley, you Can go right to Central Michigan, no issues. Every credit will transfer, and you can knock out the educational doctorate. And so that's kind of where I was at with that mindset of, boom, I do this, I see my milestone, knocked it out in two years and then move forward and go and finish that and educational doctorate degree. And so it's still a process. Things come up and you kind of life takes its bends and turns, but as long as you kind of stay focused on the prize and you complete it, I think you'll still be fine.

Antonio Riggs [00:05:54]: And so my original goal was to complete my doctoral degree by 33. And so as life, you know, moved on, I'm 10 years past the deadline now, right. But I still keep it in my forefront. I always go back, look at the different programs. I'm always researching other schools to go to, which one has the best route for me. So it's still in the forefront, and I do plan to complete. But hey, there's no time, there's no exact end date that we have when life begins to life, as the young folks say, right?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:27]: Definitely. Now, you talked about mindset, and I think as you go into different types of degrees, different types of education, you definitely have to have a mindset shift because you're educated in one way as a undergraduate student. And then as you transition in, you have to make some shifts for yourself. What type of mindset shifts did you find yourself having to make to succeed in graduate school?

Antonio Riggs [00:06:55]: Managing time effectively. So thinking about my undergrad experience versus the grad experience, I was more heavily involved as a student at the undergraduate level, right. So fraternity member, resident assistant, work study student. And so you always found ways to get involved on campus, but then as you begin to work and then go back to school, you don't have that time to commit to some of the experiences that you did as an undergraduate student. And so managing my time effectively, still staying engaged on a campus level because I was a leader within my fraternity on campus, I was obligated to do mentorship programs, advise the undergraduate chapter, so still stayed in touch there. But I would reduce my level of commitment to that organization while I was on campus. And then, you know, my number one priority is to still put food on the table. So I had to work the 8 to 5 and to make some sacrifices.

Antonio Riggs [00:07:55]: Right. So I commuted, and so I just couldn't run home and grab a bite to eat. So most of my experiences during my grad program was to get out of work, grab a bite to eat, sleep in the hallway, and then go to Class. And so I remember as an undergrad, I said, you know, I will never be that person sleeping, you know, in the hallway. And then as a grad student, you know, when you make some of those sacrifices, you find yourself sleeping in the hallway just to get a nap because your class is from 6 to 10pm and then now you have to commute 45 minutes to an hour home at night. So managing time, effectively, prioritizing work, academic processes, and that's kind of where I had to streamline all that stuff and cut out on all the extracurricular activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: I talked to a lot of graduate students and as they're starting graduate school, sometimes they feel like they don't belong. They feel kind of like an imposter per se. Did you ever feel that imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies, whether it was at the master's or the specialist level? And how did you handle it?

Antonio Riggs [00:09:03]:

Yes, I think when I hit that imposter syndrome within the program you would identify either a couple staff members or one or two faculty members that will be there to support you and making sure you communicate your thoughts to your advisor. So for me, my advisor was a faculty member in my program. So it was like a double whammy, right? So I would go talk to the faculty member about academic concerns and then the conversation would evolve into this is how I'm feeling is this program for me, especially when it got to that research process because I don't think the undergraduate experience prepared you for the level of research in that master's program that you would go into. And so that's where my self doubt came into play because I loved my graduate programs. To me, I think they were easier than the undergraduate experience, right? Because it's kind of like you read how do you put things together? And it was more of a articulating what you're learning and you're writing it in a paper versus the test and all of the essays you had to write at the undergraduate level, master's level, everything compounded into an end result. And so I kind of like that piece of it. But the research, I wasn't the best at the formulas. And so making sure I communicate with the faculty, my advisor, they would give me good advice.

Antonio Riggs [00:10:29]:

Dr. Clark is awesome. She helped me out a lot in that process, keeping me motivated, telling me, you know, things that I can do to stay in the game. So that communication piece, when you, when I felt like I wasn't going to make it and it just got hard, just gotta talk to people and Then once you tell people your mindset, where you're at, some people will come up with resources for you because the professors and staff, they want you to succeed. They don't want anybody to drop out. They don't want anybody to stop out. Basically, if you do, that's kind of like the choice you've made on your own. But I think the faculty and staff across any institution that you decide to go to will be there to support you in any way, shape or form, or within reason.

Antonio Riggs [00:11:13]: You just got to communicate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]: So, as I mentioned, I know that there are transitions that happen going from undergrad to a master's degree to a specialist degree. At each of those points, there's different transitions, different expectations, different faculty, different perspectives, et cetera. As you transitioned out of your undergraduate work, out of your professional work, into your first master's degree, then to your specialist degree, you found success in those journeys. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into each of those degrees, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Antonio Riggs [00:11:55]: Be present, take an active role in my educational journey and not just let the advisor pick the courses for me. So because I worked in higher education and I was doing a Student Affairs Administration program, the things that I was doing at work transferred into my academic program. And things that I learned in my program, I was able to see it come full swing at work. And so tailoring to set myself up as I implemented new programs as Director of Residence Life, I kind of leveraged those experiences within my academic journey to do some benchmarking, to do some research, to write my papers on what I was experiencing in the workplace. So I was able to tie my academic and my professionalism together to make it more exciting, right? Because I wasn't just reading and writing papers. I was actually doing the work academically, the research piece, and then I would come to work and put it into play. And with both of those programs, they were practicum experiences where. Which is basically like an internship at the graduate level that I had to participate in.

Antonio Riggs [00:13:03]: And so that kind of further gave me that I was applying what I was learning academically into the work setting. And so I think that's what allowed me to be successful, is working in the field that I wanted to get a degree in. And it all played out. It came together well for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: Now, you were working full time, you were going to school, you had other commitments and things that you were dealing with. Talk to me about balance, because I know that sometimes Balance goes out the window when you make the decision to go to graduate school. But how did you find balance in being able to be successful in school? Work, family, other personal responsibilities? Work while you were going through those graduate degrees?

Antonio Riggs [00:13:50]: Yeah, so when I first completed my master's, I was single, had nothing to do but go to school. Right. I didn't want idle hands, right, because you get distracted when your hands become idle. So I was always staying active, whether if it was at work, you know, you go to work. And then I, you know, came home and I was studying. As I said, I was a part of a couple of different organizations that took up my time as well. And so the balance there was still important, too, because you would get caught up into, you know, the leisure activities of just life. Because I was in school, anytime I got some free time, I went to hang out with some friends.

Antonio Riggs [00:14:28]: But everybody needs those stress relievers, right? So I don't want to say, hey, you can't go and engage with friends and others, because that's the balance, right? Making sure you're performing well academically, making sure you're performing well professionally, but still finding time to release. Because grad school is stressful, right? It's a heavy time commitment. You want to do great, you want to meet those deadlines, but still finding time for yourself. Whether if that's just going to a social outing with some friends, some people will, you know, take a weekend getaway to a cabin. I like to fish. I go out and put my feet in the grass and ground or whatever you want to call it, right? To be one with nature so you can relieve that level of stress from the everyday work in grad school. So having that balance of social learning, I think is important. And then when I went and finished my specialist, that's when I was like, hey, let's take it to the next level.

Antonio Riggs [00:15:23]: And so me and my wife, we pretty much did this whole tag team with the family. She did third shift. I was first shift. So there was always somebody at home. And she was in school completing her degree as well. So it was kind of like, hey, we're studying together. Everything we did, it was like, all right, let's cook dinner. Boom, we're doing it together.

Antonio Riggs [00:15:40]: All right, time to study. Let's study. All right. Hey, I have this test. Can you take care of the kids while I do this? Yes, I'll do that. So having a partner, I think, is important, too. That can give you balance, right? When it comes to your journey, professional, academic, somebody to kind of help you along the way, whether if it's household items, somebody to bounce ideas off of, even though they may not understand what you're talking about in grad school, but at least you're able to voice your thought processes. And sometimes just having somebody to sit there and listen can help you sort some of the ideas or things that is going in your head and then you can problem solve accordingly because you voiced it and you heard yourself say some things out loud.

Antonio Riggs [00:16:20]: So I guess having a village, so to speak, I leveraged my parents during my grad school journey, so they were big supporters and hey, you know, I'll keep the kid. Go ahead and do what you got to do for school. And then when school was done, I would go and get my kid. So especially in the early stages of that specialist program, because I was recently married and I married into a family and having that village to be there, my decisions, family wise, academic wise. And so I think my parents had understood the assignment and so they supported me along my way. And so having that support system gives you balance and also it gives you a chance to escape, to do some of that social stuff too, and then come back to reality of work and academics.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Now, if you could go back to the beginning to when you were in those degrees, what would you do differently?

Antonio Riggs [00:17:08]: I can't say I would do anything differently. In my opinion, I did it all right. I got my degrees, I passed. It was a great experience. I met some cool people. I networked along the way. I got some references. I still have friends out of those academic programs that I was in.

Antonio Riggs [00:17:24]: Would I have liked to have went off and did a program in a different state? Sometimes it crosses my mind, but I think where I am at now, I'm fine with my decisions I've made to get my degree, to work at all these great institutions that I've worked at. And I'm here today and I still enjoy what I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: And that's definitely what it's all about. It's finding that right fit and being able to find something that you're passionate about, that you enjoy every day, because that's what's going to get you up in the morning and what's going to get you through the day and make you want to show back up the next day. So that's always a good thing. As you think about your graduate school experience, what specific skills do you feel like you developed during graduate school that you find yourself drawing from even today?

Antonio Riggs [00:18:14]: I'm always networking, being able to step outside of my comfort zone and engage with People that either emphasizes that I aspire to be in or learning about what other people are doing to help me understand the different paths I can grow into. So that networking piece, communication is always one of those things that I think in any grad program, you'll be required to work with people of diverse talent. So being open to learn about other people, being open to be vulnerable in some scenarios. Because if we graduate and we say, hey, we know it all, and going back to that imposter syndrome, sometimes as males and being a minority, it's hard to say, I really don't know or I can't do it, right? Because you're still faced with past traumas of being labeled. So you want to say, hey, I know it all, I can do it. But just being transparent, saying, hey, I don't have the capacity or I don't understand asking for that level of help, right? So being transparent, communicating is one. And then other skills that I've acquired throughout that program is that level of research, reading to understand best practices, looking at other places that may have similar programs as you as far as your work environment, and not plagiarizing, but understanding what they're doing and how you can either copy what they're doing to implement a program at your job and or take their program and move it to the next step. And that's one thing that I learned in that program.

Antonio Riggs [00:19:55]: Research isn't about just if you decide to go research, but like when you're looking at programs and you're doing, you know, benchmarking things, it's not about just kind of saying, hey, I have to invent something new. It's looking at what's already out there and how can you tweak it just a little bit to. And make it unique towards your goals or your obligations and moving forward within that program or your level of study. So that's kind of some of the skills that I've learned is leverage what's already out there. How can you make change? How can you improve something for the better of your environment or your work scenario and kind of move forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: As you think back to grad school and you think back to the experiences that you've had both at the master's and the specialist level, as you look back at that, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school, whether it be in education and business or whatever degree that would help them find success sooner?

Antonio Riggs [00:20:49]: Explore your passion as a career person. I'm always saying, hey, take a career assessment, research opportunities that you want to do and then sit down and ask yourself, 10 years from now I want to do this. So think about that 10 year vision for yourself and get an understanding of how that program can help you get to that 10 year vision. So always think ahead, research the different programs and try to figure out what are you going to learn, what additional skills you're going to acquire to help you fulfill the role that you're trying to go into 10 years from now. And be patient because just because you get the degree, nobody's going to come and knock on the door. And so while you're in your programs, make sure you network, make sure you understand all of the possibilities that you could possibly get into after that degree is completed. And then continue to add bricks to your foundation so you can meet those bare minimum qualifications that an employer is looking for or that you can do to set yourself up to meet that 10 year goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:59]: Well, Antonio, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of your own journey today, for sharing these tips, these hints, these things that you learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best.

Antonio Riggs [00:22:11]: Hey, thank you. Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school isn't just another chapter in your academic story—it's a transformative journey that shapes your personal and professional life. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Ervin Leavy, Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management at the University of Michigan–Flint, to explore what it means to pursue graduate education as a working professional.

Ervin's path is both relatable and inspiring. After earning his undergraduate degree in 1991, he began working in higher education, but realized years later that to truly thrive—especially as an adjunct lecturer—he needed to further his education. That realization led him back to school after an 18-year gap, a move he calls "one of the best decisions" of his adult life. His experience offers valuable insights for anyone considering grad school, especially those who may feel it's "too late" to return.

Adapting to Change and Embracing Lifelong Learning

One prominent theme from Ervin's story is embracing change. When he first entered grad school, the world had shifted dramatically—classes were online, technology was central, and Blackboard replaced the typewriters of his college days. By asking questions, seeking support, and choosing in-person classes, Ervin exemplified adaptability and the willingness to step out of his comfort zone.

The Importance of Support and Community

Ervin's journey also highlights the value of strong support systems. He credits coworkers, colleagues, and campus resources with providing the motivation and flexibility he needed to succeed. For working professionals, leveraging employer education benefits, as Ervin did, can minimize financial barriers and provide a smoother path forward.

Finding Balance and Avoiding Burnout

Graduate school requires resilience. Ervin candidly shares the struggles he faced: late nights, technology mishaps, and moments of doubt. His advice? Find balance, rely on time management, and take breaks to recharge. Hobbies like chess and cooking offered him much-needed mental space.

Advice for Prospective Students

For anyone contemplating graduate school, Ervin urges you not to wait: "The longer you delay, the harder it can be to get back in the groove." Apply yourself fully, build relationships, and surround yourself with people who motivate and support you.

Ready for more inspiration and actionable insights? Tune into this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and hear first-hand how perseverance, adaptability, and a strong community can lead to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you come back, that you listen, that you are working to prepare yourself for this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are in thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going to graduate school, wherever you are in this pathway, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: And you're going to find that there are things that you can do along that path to help yourself to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is here to help you to be able to make better choices, to be able to find new ways of doing things, to give yourself some tools for your toolbox that will prepare you to find success sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own experiences, sometimes good, sometimes maybe not so good of things that they learned along the way that can help you to again prepare yourself. This week we got another great guest. Irvin Levy is with us today. And Irvin is the Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management and Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint. He did his undergraduate work at Central Michigan University and then did his graduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: We're going to learn a little bit more about him and about his experiences and his own journey in going to grad school. Ervin, thanks so much for being here today.

Ervin Leavy [00:01:56]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at Central Michigan University, and at some point during either your undergraduate degree or after graduating, you got an inkling, you got an inkling, you got that itch, you started to scratch it, you decided that you were going to go to graduate school. Take me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Ervin Leavy [00:02:31]: Well, I got my Undergrad degree in 1991 from Central Michigan University. I began working here at the university in 2002, and I just had my undergrad degree after about seven years working in higher education. Education. That's when I realized I needed to further my education, especially on the technology side, as I was an Adjunct lecturer. So in 2009, I decided that I was going to go back to school and get my master's degree in technology and education. And that was one of the best moves that I ever made in my adult life was going back to school. Because when I came out in 91, there were not very many computers and we all had typewriters when I was in college. So when I went back to school in 2009, it was to.

Ervin Leavy [00:03:17]: Everything was totally different. Work was being done on blackboard, everything was pretty much online. So that was an adjustment period for me. But working in higher education, I felt that was needed in order for me to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: So you decided to continue your education at the University of Michigan Flint. And you probably had some reasons for doing that. And I guess talk to me about the, your decision making and as you were looking at different programs potentially or why you chose not only the University of Michigan Flint, but why educational technology?

Ervin Leavy [00:03:50]: Well, at the time I was an adjunct lecturer, I taught a variety of one credit classes. And what I noticed in the classroom was I wasn't that advanced in technology. And I chose that field because I thought it would help me in my teachings. And it did. I learned a lot regarding just working with the disabled. I learned the importance of using closed captions in my teachings. And that was the reason I went. And another reason I went is being an employee here at the university.

Ervin Leavy [00:04:25]: There's a excellent tuition reimbursement program, so I had to take advantage of that. And it didn't cost me anything. Only thing I had to pay for was my books. So I couldn't let that opportunity pass me by.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:38]: You know, and that's something that we haven't talked a lot about, even though some people from past shows have talked about that, is that you may be out there, you may be working, and there could be educational benefits that your employer provides you. And I always encourage people to take the time to have a conversation with your human resources office to find out are there opportunities that are available because they could be there. You just have to make sure you understand what the strings that are attached to that money are. So make sure that you're asking the right questions and determine whether or not you want to be bound by whatever the rules are if there is educational money that is available through your employer. Because I've seen people come in and they're, they and it's a great program. And then I've seen others where they may have to stay with the employer for a certain amount of time or the money that they took becomes alone. So you have to watch that and just know what you're getting yourself into, which is great. Now every person goes through a process of transition as they go into graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]: You have to kind of figure out for yourself the differences, because there are true differences in moving from being an undergraduate student to working in the workforce to then going back into, for you, going back into graduate school. And at each of those points, there are different transitions. So you had transitioned out of being an undergraduate student into, into full time work and then you decided to come back into school. So there's a transition there. So talk to me about these transitions and what you had to do when you transitioned into graduate school to find success and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school experience.

Ervin Leavy [00:06:31]: Well, when I went to graduate school, I had been out of school for about 18 years. So when I decided to go back, everything was totally different. Like I said, everything was online, all assignments were on blackboard. We didn't use blackboard when I was an undergrad back in the 90s. And a part of what really helped me was I asked questions and I made sure I know what was helpful for me is instead of taking online classes, I preferred to go sit in the classroom. And I went and I sat in the front row for every class and tried to learn as much as I could. And I asked questions that was important. And I had some wonderful advisors and some wonderful professors that walked me through, which was very helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:17]: Now there are times, especially after going back after so many years, I talk to students all the time that have a feeling of imposter syndrome and self doubt that they fade as they go through graduate school, especially as they enter into graduate school. Did you feel that for yourself? And if so, how did you handle it?

Ervin Leavy [00:07:39]: I had doubts, but I knew I needed to do it in order to be a better adjunct lecturer. I had a lot of doubts and I think just taking that step and just pushing forward and pushing through it, it became easier for me. But what I learned in the master's program is there was a lot more flexibility in the master's program. A lot of the students that were in those programs had families, they were working full time. So the flexibility that was provided for us was so helpful in undergrad. I don't recall having that type of flexibility. I recall a couple semesters instead of taking two, three credit courses, I took a three credit course and they let me break down the other three credits by doing one at a time, which was really helpful. And I was able to still work full time and go to school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:32]: When you're balancing so many things, sometimes it's hard to keep that motivation going. How did you stay motivated through challenging times, challenging semesters, you know, and get to the finish line in the end?

Ervin Leavy [00:08:45]: That was tough because there were times when I really wanted to just throw the towel in and give up there. There was one incident where I was up till 4 in the morning working on some stuff and I ended up losing all of the work and I ended up going to bed and I got back up about 8am I contacted my professor and told him what happened and I just got back to it. But I was motivated. I really had to finish the task. And I just think that's probably one of my stronger points is completing tasks and meeting deadlines and those strengths really helped me through the program. I was not going to give up. I had friends that went through grad school. That was motivation for me.

Ervin Leavy [00:09:27]: Also I had co workers to do it. So that was motivation for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:31]: I talk about balancing and you are working full time and you have family, you have friends, you've got lots of competing demands when it came to getting through your academic program. And every student has to find balance for themselves. Talk to me about balance and how you were able to find that optimal balance that allowed for you to be able to get through graduate school school in an optimal way.

Ervin Leavy [00:10:02]: I think the most important thing is that I was already working here at the university and my supervisors allowed me that flexibility where if I had a class at 4 o' clock, I could leave my office and go to class and come back and I, you know, work maybe a couple hours later. That was very helpful for me. But I also had to go above and beyond. I had to stay up later. I had to give up some weekends. I remember a class I took, we had be here Saturdays for maybe four or five weeks in a row for half the day. And that was the class. But I had to make that sacrifice.

Ervin Leavy [00:10:38]: But just working here at the university and already being on campus, that relieves so much pressure, which I know there are others who probably wouldn't have that luxury. So I was fortunate to already be on campus and was able to be flexible with work. And yeah, there were times when I even did homework while I was in the office.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: You talked a little bit about times where you felt that burnout and you definitely had to push through. As you talked about how did you end up in the end avoiding burnout or recovering when you did feel overwhelmed.

Ervin Leavy [00:11:14]: My doctor talked to me years ago. And he gave me some advice that stuck with me to this day. And it's over 20 years ago. He said, urban, if there are things you can change, change them. If you can't change them, don't worry about it. So I stopped worrying about all the stressful moments. I couldn't let it break me down. I would just take a break.

Ervin Leavy [00:11:37]: I love to play chess, so I would go play some chess just to get my mind away from everything. I love to cook, too. I would go cook and just put everything to the side and regroup, recharge and. And I created a good balance. Just had to move some things around in my personal life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:53]: One of the things that important is the connections that you make, the connections that you make with your peers, but also with your faculty. Talk to me about relationships that you were able to build both with faculty and peers, and how did they impact.

Ervin Leavy [00:12:09]: You as a student, my peers, I had some co workers here that were in the master's programs also. And we all stuck together. We motivated each other. And being an employee of the university, I was a familiar face. So I was pretty well connected. And the support that I received was just unlimited. And all of that played a factor in my success. And when you talk about relationships that I've built over the years, I'm very thankful and grateful for a lot of my colleagues and the people that motivated me.

Ervin Leavy [00:12:43]: And what I learned, too, is about schooling. I feel like anything you put your mind to, if you apply yourself, surround yourself with people that can help you, you can accomplish those goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: What would you say is the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during your graduate school experience that helped you in the graduate school outside of the classroom?

Ervin Leavy [00:13:08]: I think my organizational skills got a little better. I've always been an organized person. But when I got into those programs and got another 40 to 50%, it was almost two. Having two jobs, I really had to use my time efficiently and being efficient with every moment. And when I finished the program, I was a more efficient worker in recreational services because of those experiences. I'm very efficient with my time now, where before I don't think I was as efficient, but that's what I learned outside of the classroom. It's just even more structured. And being a former athlete, that's where I learned structure and discipline.

Ervin Leavy [00:13:50]: But going to school and working full time, it's really the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:54]: What's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Ervin Leavy [00:13:59]: I had a lot of people tell me I should go to graduate school. But I had been out of school for so long, it was tough for me to get motivated. What I think I wish someone would have told me would probably be, you need to get it done now, don't wait. Get it done now. And I wish I would have done it earlier. You know, I got here, the university in 2002, and I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to go back until 2009. So like I said, I had been out of school for 18 years before I finally decided to do it. And people told me all the time, you should go back.

Ervin Leavy [00:14:36]: You need to do it now. Don't wait. The longer you wait, the more difficult it'll be to. To get back acclimated. And it was tough. I struggled in the beginning because blackboard, all of that was new to me, but I worked my way through it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:48]: As you think about other students that are thinking about going to graduate, what are some tips that you might offer to these other students, no matter if they were doing education or any other field that would help them find success sooner?

Ervin Leavy [00:15:01]: Do your best. Apply yourself. Apply yourself 100% as if you're going to work every day. And that's what was helpful for me. I applied myself and take it seriously. When I went back in 2009, I was one of the older students, but I said, I'm going to sit in the front row every day. And I saw there were a lot of students that I didn't think were really, really taking things serious. And when assignments were due, they struggled.

Ervin Leavy [00:15:27]: When group projects were due, they struggled. Apply yourself. Do your best. And I'm proud to say I finished my Master's program with a perfect gpa. I had never done that, but it was because I never applied myself either. I was a good student, but I never applied myself like I did when I went into the Master's program. And that's the best GPA that I ever had in my life. But it also helped me as a professional because I apply myself the same way in everything I do now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]: Well, Irvin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, and I wish you all the best.

Ervin Leavy [00:16:00]: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:02]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is often called a journey, and for good reason. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Abby Parrill, the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it truly takes to succeed as a graduate student. Whether you're contemplating applying, awaiting your first semester, or knee-deep in research, the experiences and advice shared in this episode offer practical guidance and inspiration for every stage of the process.

One of the key themes Dr. Parrill discusses is intentional decision-making—knowing why you're choosing graduate school and how it aligns with your long-term goals. She recounted how, as an undergraduate at Central Michigan University, her co-op experience at Dow Chemical revealed to her that advanced degrees opened doors to more autonomy and interesting projects, prompting her to further her education immediately, rather than settling into a job right away.

Dr. Parrill also shares her experience of choosing the right graduate program, highlighting the importance of considering personal and professional factors. Her decision to attend the University of Arizona was influenced not only by its academic offerings but also by where both she and her then-fiancé could study complementary fields on the same campus.

Preparation is another recurring theme. Academic preparation, such as building a solid foundation during undergrad and leveraging work experiences, paid off for Dr. Parrill—especially when it came to placement exams and early graduate coursework. She stresses the importance of treating graduate school as a full-time commitment, dedicating oneself not just in the classroom but also through research, networking, and even tutoring or mentoring others.

The transition to graduate-level work often brings feelings of imposter syndrome and self-doubt. Dr. Parrill's candid insights into these struggles—and the importance of leaning on mentors and building supportive networks—underscore that such challenges are common, but surmountable.

Finally, Dr. Parrill shares wisdom on balancing responsibilities and being intentional about time management, whether you're juggling teaching, research, work, or family obligations. Her advice, derived from mentoring students with complex lives and her own experience, rings true for anyone seeking to thrive in graduate school and beyond.

Are you considering graduate school, or are you currently navigating its demands? Tune into this episode for actionable tips, personal stories, and the reassurance that the path, while challenging, is absolutely rewarding.

Listen to the full episode to glean more practical advice and inspiration to fuel your graduate school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, we are here to talk with you, to work with you on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey, because it truly is a journey. And every one of us, as we think about graduate school, have to go through a process to be able to prepare ourselves, to work through the process of not only applying to graduate school, getting into graduate school, but getting through graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And to do that, there are things that you can do to find success in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences, people from different walks of life that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, they've come out the other end mostly unscathed, and they have been able to learn things along the way. Learn things about themselves, but learn things about the process of going to graduate school and what they had to do to find success. This week, we've got another great guest. Dr. Abby Parrill is with us today, and Dr. Perel is the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: And Dr. Parrill joined the University of Michigan Flint about a month ago. She has transitioned from working at the University of Memph for a number of years, and now she's here, and I'm really excited to have her here to talk to you about her own experiences and to be able to help you better understand some of the things that she had to learn along the way. Dr. Pero, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:01:46]: Absolutely. Thank you for the invite.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate being able to talk with you today. I'm always excited to be able to learn from other people and the journey that they're on. And I know that when you were in your undergraduate work, at some point back at Central Michigan University, there was a point in time. There was a point in time where you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue your education, weren't going to just finish that degree and go off and work and maybe go over to Dow Chemical down the road, but you made a decision to continue on. Can you take me back to that point and what was going through your head and what made you Decide that that was the right step at that point.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:02:25]: Absolutely. So it's funny you mentioned Dow Chemical, because I was actually in the cooperative education program at Dow Chemical while I was an undergraduate student. Great learning experience. Let me see how to use what I was learning in the classroom in a real chemistry lab. But one of the things I learned was that the chemists that had doctoral degrees had a lot more autonomy and more interesting projects. And those with bachelor's degrees tended to do very routine, repetitive things that did require chemistry knowledge. And I enjoyed doing those routine, repetitive things as an undergraduate student because it allowed me to get really good at a few of the skills I had learned as an undergraduate. But I couldn't see myself doing that for 10, 15, 20 more years.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:03:10]: And there had been a panel held, sponsored by Central Michigan University, I think it was our student affiliates of the American Chemical Society sponsored a panel about graduate school, med school, or work as being some of the common directions someone might go after right after completing the bachelor's degree. And there were people on the panel who had started employment first and then gone to graduate school and others who had gone straight to graduate school. And they talked about kind of the challenge of getting into the work environment, getting used to a particular salary, and then stepping back to graduate school and going back to that kind of restricted income as being a very sincere challenge that they faced. And I decided that since I knew I didn't want to remain at the bachelor's level for my entire career, that I was just going to grit my teeth and move on and get the graduate degree right away.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: Now, one of the things that I always am interested in is, you know, you decided to go and continue your education, like you mentioned, and you ended up applying to schools. But I'm sure that you went through a process of exploring schools to try to find the right fit, and you ended up finding a fit at the University of Arizona doing organic chemistry. Talk to me about that process that you went through for yourself to explore, but also to identify that final decision of the University of Arizona. And what was it about the University of Arizona that made it the best fit for you?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:04:48]: So searching for graduate schools was very different when I was searching for graduate schools than it would be for today's prospective graduate students. My first shopping for graduate schools was to go to the big rings that our undergraduate institutions had bolted on the wall. And they had big paper flyers hanging from these rings. And each flyer was for a specific graduate program in chemistry. And they had little tear off cards, and you could fill out your contact information and put them in the mail. And they would mail you information much faster. Now to use the all of the wonderful online tools you have, you can go to a website and shop instead of having to send off a card and wait. But another avenue of exploration is very much relevant today, and that's to talk to your faculty.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:05:36]: I asked some of my faculty. I'm looking at this three foot thick pile of programs and I have no idea how to choose. And I got a piece of interesting advice from one of my undergraduate faculty members who said, try somewhere really different for graduate school. Because graduate school is a limited period of time. Once you graduate, you have the opportunity to stay near where you go to graduate school or go somewhere else if you don't like that that region of the country or that part of the world. And I found that very interesting advice. And so as I was actually applying to graduate schools, my not then yet husband and I each agreed we were going to pick several schools. We were both going to apply to each other's schools as well as our own.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:06:25]: And we were going to see where we got our acceptances and then decide. And out of the schools I had visited and the ones that I had acceptances at that my husband was interested in, my future husband at the time, now currently husband, we narrowed it down to the University of Arizona and the University of Pennsylvania. I was going to go in chemistry, he was going to go in pharmacology and toxicology. And at the University of Pennsylvania, those two were on two different campuses, two hours apart. And at the University of Arizona, they were on the same campus across a major street from each other. So maybe a 10 minute walk. And given that we both liked both of the institutions and our respective programs at those institutions, we opted for the let's go where we can be together. And the desert Southwest is about as different from Michigan in terms of climate and native flora and fauna as you can get.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:21]: So it was an opportunity to try someplace really different.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:07:24]: Definitely very different. And I'm sure that along the way you definitely learned a few things about the the desert Southwest versus here and things that you like or don't like as well as when you're in the Midwest and things that you like or don't like. And I guess one of the things that I think about as you made that move, when you made that move down to the desert Southwest, there's things that you can do to prepare yourself both academically, professionally, personally to make a move like that, as you think back to that move for yourself, how did you prepare academically, professionally, personally, before starting graduate school to help you to make that transition into graduate school?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:08:08]: Well, I will say, while I didn't intend it to be preparation at the time, participating in that cooperative education internship opportunity where I could use chemistry daily in a work environment rather than just study it academically, and that repetition of a certain subset of chemistry was phenomenally important. So when I headed off to graduate school, the chemistry department administered a set of, let's call them placement exams. That isn't what they were called, but we'll call them that. And the ones I did the best on were the ones that overlapped with not just my academic experience, but my work experience. So that opportunity to use what I had learned and use it over and over and over really did cement what I had learned and make it so that I could be very successful on that subset of what I had learned as an undergraduate really shifted it into long term memory. And so the opportunity to go back and review things and use things in a different way, I would say the more you can view your entire undergraduate curriculum as connected and building transferable skills and use them from one class into the next, or find work experiences where you can use some of those things that turned out to be one of the best preparations I could have done, even though I didn't think about it that way at the time. And really the move across the country, there's no preparation for that. I will say I learned from the experience though, because I have now moved across the country again for the third time in maybe fourth time in my life.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:09:51]: And one thing I didn't do that first time that I have gotten better at every time is don't pack things you're going to throw away when you unpack them. Start your packing early enough that you're really being discriminating about what you pack.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: That's great advice. I think everybody could probably learn from that and not just if you're going to graduate school.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:12]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:13]: When you transition into graduate school, there is a difference. There's a difference between the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student as a way that and the way that you're taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations, different perspectives. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you did get your degree, so you were successful getting through that degree. And I guess as you think about your transition in to the academic work, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success and what are some things that you had to do to maintain that success. As you went through the entire academic experience.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:51]: Yeah. So as an undergraduate student you will probably take, probably will have taken more classes at a time than you will as a graduate student, but that doesn't mean you should treat it as less work. So I treated my graduate experience the way I had treated the combination of my full time undergraduate program and my halftime internship at dow and really treated graduate school as the same time commitment. And less of my time was in class, but more of it was invested in other aspects of being successful. Reading literature in my field that I was studying so that I could learn what's going on in my field, find things that I could apply into my research project, just be generally well informed. I did some tutoring in part I did it for some money on the side, but it was also to really repeat those kind of early chemistry concepts by helping an undergraduate student learn them for the first time to make sure I was always fresh and I always had that solid foundation to build from. It also gave me some one on one teaching and mentoring experience that has been tremendously useful throughout my career. And so treat graduate school absolutely as at least a full time job, if not more.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:12:16]: Even if you weren't scheduled full time, find useful things to do that will help you advance through the program in the other part of that full time experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:27]: You know, one of the things that I think about when you talk about that is the fact that as you make that switch for yourself, many times graduate students talk to me about a feeling of imposter syndrome, especially as you become a graduate student, because you're looked at in a different way and you're held at a different standard than you are as an undergraduate student. And especially if you're in a PhD program where maybe you're being asked to teach or do high level research, there's expectations that are there. Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies and how did you handle it?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:06]: Self doubt? Yes. I don't think I knew the word imposter syndrome when I was a graduate student. I had been academically successful. I knew how to learn in a classroom. But it's different when you are asked to be creative and develop a project and contribute to a project. And it can feel overwhelming that how can I go look in the literature in my field and find what's missing, what projects still need to be done. How can I add something to this discipline when there's 500 journals and I'm 50 years behind? Well, hundreds of years behind. There's so much to Learn to know how my project that I'm supposed to be generating to be the basis for either a thesis or a dissertation.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:52]: How can I decide what my value add to the field is going to be? That certainly felt overwhelming. And luckily my first challenge at developing a project proposal was actually within the context of a class. So it wasn't necessarily my dissertation project. That was my first challenge to create my own project. And so the field was narrowed to the top topic of the class. And, and the t. The professor did a really nice job of giving us some strategies of how to identify a project that might need to be done. So there was a lot of guidance.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:14:29]: And so what I would say to anyone who's feeling overwhelmed and, and like you don't know how to start. You're going to have a graduate committee, you're going to have a major professor or a mentor. Go to them, share how you're feeling and ask for some strategies on how to get started. It's, it's okay to lean on your mentors. I have leaned on mentors through my entire career. And as I transition into my new role as provost, I had a one year opportunity to try out the role at a different institution as an interim. But trust me, I leaned on prior provosts that were still at my institution. I leaned on the president at the University of Memphis.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:15:08]: Now I'm leaning a little bit on the chancellor. As I, as I onboard into my new role. I still have mentors and I'm not going to say how long I've been in my career, but it's been a while. Or to borrow from the south, it's been a minute. And those mentors, I think can be tremendous supporters and they can support you better if you share a little bit of that vulnerability about how you feel overwhelmed because then they know kind of how to, how to reassure you and share maybe an experience where they felt overwhelmed and how they overcame it, but also some strategies to, to, to, to get going. Once you get going and you start making progress, it changes a lot. You, you see some progress, you say, oh, I can do this and a mentor can help you on that path to, to making some progress that helps you feel like you belong and, and that you were admitted to graduate school because you really are capable of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: You know, earlier you said that someone told you it is a finite amount of time and it truly is a finite amount of time. When you're in graduate school, it is a finite amount of time. There are that are going to be thrown your way and you're going to be asked to learn a lot in that short amount of time. It may look like it's a long amount of time, but you're going to find very quickly that it goes very fast. Now, as you went through your own graduate experience, as you mentioned, you were there with your significant other, and not everybody has that experience, but everyone has to learn how to balance. Everyone has to learn how to balance school, work, family, and any other personal responsibilities that they may have in their life, while trying to also focus on why they're there, which is the academic experience. Talk to me about how you balanced all of those competing factors for yourself so that you could still be successful.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:17:04]: So for me, I had been, before I went to graduate school, a full time undergraduate student taking 15 or more credit hours a semester. I'd been driving 20 minutes each way to get to Dow Chemical on my internship days. They expected me to put in 20 hours a week. I was doing a lot of studying. I was engaged a little bit as an undergraduate student in some student, in particularly the chemistry student organization. So there was a little bit of the campus life that I was participating in when I got to graduate school. And I treated it like an 8 to 5 job. I could actually get all my work done between eight and five.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:17:43]: And this is attending classes, preparing to teach my classes, teaching my classes, doing a little bit of tutoring. At least in the first semester, that was all I was expected to do while shopping for my research mentor. And then when I found my research mentor, I tutored a bit less because I had to invest time in the research project. So as I transitioned through the graduate program and I needed to spend more and more time on my research, I decided very deliberately, here are all the things I'm doing. Which of these do I need to do less of so that I can make time for this new thing that's, that's part of my graduate program. So initially it was okay, well, I was tutoring a lot because I was taking only three classes and that didn't fill up my eight to five time, even with the studying. So I was doing a lot of tutoring in the first semester. Once I had my research group and I started my research, I paired that way back.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:18:36]: And then of course, at least in a doctoral program, you're not going to be taking classes for the full period. So the classes are going to start dropping off as you complete the course based requirements and then you just simply choose to invest that time in the research that you need to do. And so being very deliberate about what am I doing? What new thing is coming my way, and what am I going to kind of do less of in order to make time for this new thing? The people I am super impressed with in terms of balance, I actually mentored as doctoral students when I was a faculty member, two different mothers of four children. And they amazed me with their balance. And so I'd actually share a word or two of wisdom from them. One of them waited until her youngest child started high school. So she had. Her oldest was in college with her as an undergraduate when she started graduate school.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:19:31]: She had gotten her undergraduate degree before starting her family, but she came back for graduate school once her. Her young child got into high school. And part of her way to carve out time to be a graduate student as well as a mother was everyone in the family agreed that they wanted to help mom go to school, go back and earn her her next degree. And so everyone in the family picked a day where they were responsible for dinner. They had to do the meal planning. They had to add things to the grocery list. She would do the grocery shopping on the weekend for the week, but they had to have planned their dinner that they were responsible for. And with everyone in the family picking a.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:20:10]: That meant that she could do put in the full day, get her research, come home just in time for dinner, and it would be ready to go on the table, and the family could still eat together. And that was something she found tremendously helpful in balancing her academic work with her family obligations. I had another mother of four. Her situation was very different. She had children with learning challenges. She had a deadbeat dad. She was spending time in court trying to get the child support out of. So she had a very strange schedule and set of obligations.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:20:46]: And yet when she dropped her kids off at school, she came in and she did her work until the kids started coming home, and then she would spend time with her kids. And because I was a computational chemist and her work was all on a computer, she could then log in and after they went to bed and do some more work after the kids went to sleep. So very different scheduling, very different way to kind of manage the work versus the family. And so hers was to kind of split the time so she would leave at 2 so she could make sure to be home when all the kids started coming home from school, and then from two to whatever time was theirs. And then she would do more in the evening before getting up and starting all over again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]: Completely inspirational stories. I mean, those individuals that are able to balance all of those things are ones that amazes me because there are so many expectations on you as a student and you have to have support along the way. I know you mentioned that you learned quite a bit inside the classroom and you do, you definitely do that while you're going through graduate school. But there's a lot of learning that happens outside of the classroom as well. As you think back to the experience that you went through, what was the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:22:01]: I want to say networking. I had an opportunity to go to a research, my first research conference as a graduate student very early in my graduate career, great big national conference in my discipline probably had thousands of people, probably tens of thousands, over 10,000 people at this meeting. And that was a daunting experience. Here I am a brand new graduate student giving my first presentation at this huge national meeting. And so I kind of felt like I was following my research mentor around and he took pains to introduce me to people and, and urge me to actually talk to them and you know, to. Sometimes he would kind of just give me the little, the little motion that I should go talk to such. And so without the introduction. So he kind of weaned me into the, the go out and meet people and talk to them about their work, tell them about yours.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:22:56]: And. And in my talk, I was doing work based, kind of building off of something another scientist had published. And that scientist was in the room and actually asked me a question, asked, you know, where did I get the basis for this thing I was talking about? And I said, well, from your paper. And of course his response was to laugh. And he came up and talked to me afterwards and it was just very gratifying to me that a senior scientist actually came to my talk and then came up to me afterwards to say what he liked about it and that he appreciated that I was building on his work. But the networking aspect, meeting other people in your discipline, it may not show, but I'm a little bit reticent about meeting new people, which is strange in the role I'm in moving to a new institution, I'm having to meet lots of new people. But one strategy I convinced myself to use the first time after that that I went to a conference by my. Without other members of my group is I challenged myself to find someone different to have a meal with every day.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:24:05]: It didn't have to be every meal, but if I'm at a poster session and I meet another graduate student and we have a conversation, just ask, did you have plans for dinner? Do you want to find a place to eat. And that can be a great starting point, I think kind of getting to know other people in your field. And don't always think about the senior people in your field. Find another graduate student in your field at the meeting because those are relationships, if you start building them are going to last a long time throughout your Career, they definitely can. And you'll find yourself reaching out to them in many different ways throughout the year.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]: You talked earlier about not only mentors, but people that you can contact that are, they may be just peers, but there's still people that you rely on to be able to help you and that you have as a confidant along the way. Because there's going to be points in time in your career where you may need someone that can just be that listening ear that understands what you're going through or can at least empathize with what you're going through and can give you some words of either solace or advice.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:25:05]: And you never know when someone who's up here now may be on a hiring committee for a job you're interested in later.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:11]: So true, so true that has happened. Was there any type of defining moment for you or turning point that really shaped your academic journey?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:25:20]: Oh, absolutely. So when I first marched off to graduate school, I was interested in kind of interfacing some discipline of chemistry with a research problem of biological significance. So I was looking for bio something chemistry projects to work on because I thought I was going to earn my doctoral degree and march off to the pharmaceutical industry and be part of the research that creates life saving medications without having to deal with sick people. So as I marched off to graduate school I was envisioning for myself a life in the chemical industry, the business side of chemistry, but, but the research aspect. And as I did my teaching assistantship and my tutoring, I would come home and talk to my future husband and, and talk about how, oh, you know, this student today was so confused when they came in for tutoring and I, you know, kind of talked to them about the problem and they were still confused. And so I tried explaining it a different way and tried backing them up to find out why they were confused. And on the, I just saw their eyes light up when they got it and they could get through that problem and solve it. He said, sounds like you really like to teach.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:26:38]: Oh, I love to teach. He said, so you really want to go into the pharmaceutical industry? Like I'm sure I can find a way to teach on the side or something. Maybe I'LL teach a class at a nearby community college. He's like, okay, we must have had that conversation a dozen times over the course of about a year and a half. And finally I said, you know, I probably should just look for an academic job when I finish here, because I do really love to teach. And having a family member to kind of be that sounding board and just ask me a question, are you sure that's the direction you want to go? Made me think about it again and again and again. And so as you think about potential career pathways, share them with someone who knows you well and have those conversations about why you're thinking of that pathway and what do you really love and does that pathway way, you know, scratch that itch and let you do what you really love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:32]: So as you think back to that graduate school experience as well, how did graduate school change the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:27:41]: Oh, so one of the most embarrassing things that happened to me in graduate school was during my oral exam. So my comprehensive exam had an oral component to it. It. And one of my research mentors, I had actually had co mentors for my project, asked me a question and I answered it badly. And so she asked it again with a little bit of help, because in your oral exam, that's what they do. They want to push you past where you can answer questions well and then see if a little bit of help allows you to rescue yourself. Right. They're testing your limit.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:28:17]: You're not going to feel like you passed your oral exams, not if your mentors are pushing you. And she gave me a little bit of context. And the context was to remind me that another member of our group had been looking at something like this and had talked about at a group meeting recently. And I could not connect the dots. I had sat through. I can't tell you how many group meetings not paying close enough attention to my other grad student fellows in my group, what they were doing and what they were learning. And so one of my take homes is to really learn from everybody in every meeting I'm in and not just mark time until it's my turn to tell about my project, but to learn about everyone else's also. And to me, that is an invaluable skill, that listening skill.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:29:06]: And I was embarrassed that I could not connect the dots to something one of my grad school colleagues had probably talked about a dozen times in our research group meetings, which were weekly by the time I did my oral exam. So learning to listen, I think, was very much something that I hadn't really put enough emphasis on before that point. And after that point, I started paying much more attention and listening and taking notes and learning from my peers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:38]: As you think back to the very beginning, before you started graduate school, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school that would have helped you in that graduate school experience?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:29:51]: I think I probably could have started reading the literature a lot earlier than I did. You know, there were lots of topics in even my undergraduate program where there's a rich kind of set of primary sources I wasn't reading. I was just reading the textbook because the textbook was assigned and the primary sources upon which the textbook was based were not assigned. And it wasn't until I got to a senior level kind of advanced, advanced undergraduate course. It was kind of a half graduate, half undergraduate course where I actually had to use primary sources in problem solving. But again, the textbook had the problems and it actually had recommended primary sources. So we'd all go to the library and we'd all go find them and stack them on a table, and everybody that had to do this assignment would then have them all there. But there were a lot of things I could have learned earlier.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:30:48]: And in my field, there's the hardcore primary sources where they expect only someone within the discipline who already has a doctorate degree to ever read them. Maybe not those sources, but certainly some of the more general audience sources, something like science. Often those are written for a broader audience, certainly trained scientists, but not trained scientists in a specific discipline. And so some of those are more approachable. And I could have been reading things like that much earlier. So if you have an interest in graduate school, I would find a few journals related to your discipline that are not quite so narrowly focused at the all the people who already have a PhD degree in X, but are a little bit broader. There are lots of journals that publish lots of review articles, and those are great starting points as you're exploring an area. And they're still secondary sources, but they're not textbooks.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:31:42]: There's a lot more in them and a lot more current things in them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:45]: Finally, as you think back to your graduate education and you think about other individuals that might be thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might want to offer other students that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:31:59]: Oh, don't be afraid to ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. And it can be questions of other graduate students. Maybe if you're looking for a graduate school school, that's step one, and you have an opportunity to go visit one, make sure there's time set aside while you're visiting to talk to some graduate students that are already there. What do they like about the program? What have they found challenging about the program? Do they find unnecessary barriers within the program? Who are the mentors they like to work with? Who are the mentors that maybe aren't flexible enough for someone with a challenging work life balance or children to take care of? If you can work a regular schedule, maybe it doesn't matter. But if, if you have child care responsibilities or even parental care responsibilities and you need some flexibility, you need to make sure you have a mentor that's going to be understanding and be flexible. Not every mentor works the same way with their students. They all have great content expertise.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:33:01]: But if you work best with someone who's going to leave you alone until you ask, that's one kind of mentor. But if you need someone who's going to check in with you every day and say, how's it going? Do you have any questions? If you need that kind of more one on one in intrusive mentoring, you'll need to know who the intrusive mentors are. So thinking about your own work habits and what kind of mentoring you're going to respond best to helps you ask good questions. When you're shopping for the graduate school and the graduate mentor that you're going to work with most closely and ask all those questions while you're shopping. And then once you're in graduate school and you hit those stumbling blocks, you have a graduate committee for a reason. They are supposed to be your resources. Don't wait until a committee meeting. If someone on your committee has expertise that you would benefit from.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:51]: All great advice and as Dr. Parrill said, if you are on a research oriented trajectory and you do have a committee and you have an opportunity to have some say in who your committee is, make sure to identify individuals that, that you connect with, that you work well with, that you have a relationship with, because they are going to be spending a lot of time with you and you need to be able to trust them, that they have your back and that you can come to them with those issues, those questions, those things that you need. So that is very important and something that you definitely need to make sure that you are dealing with handling as you are moving through that process. So Dr. Pero, thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate your time and your willingness to share everything and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:34:47]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:48]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint as programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Hello everyone, Chris here with Victors in Grad School. I wanted to give you a quick update that we're taking a short pause this week from releasing a new episode. Our Office of Graduate Programs is in full gear preparing for the Fall 2025 application deadline, and that means I need to shift my focus just for a few days to make sure everything is running smoothly for our prospective students.

We'll be back next week with more great conversations and insights to help you navigate your graduate school journey. In the meantime, let this serve as your reminder: check those deadlines! Whether you're applying to UM-Flint or another institution, staying ahead of the timeline is a huge part of setting yourself up for success.

If grad school is part of your future goals, take the next step—get that application in, reach out to programs with questions, and keep moving forward. Your future self will thank you.

Talk to you soon!

Are you thinking about graduate school, in the midst of your studies, or reflecting on your own academic journey? If so, the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast is one you won't want to miss! Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this engaging episode features Jackie Halligan, Human Resources professional at the University of Michigan-Flint, who offers a candid look into her path through academia and into a thriving HR career.

The Journey is Unique for Everyone

Right from the start, Dr. Lewis reminds us: graduate education is a journey, not a race. Jackie's story perfectly illustrates this. After earning her Bachelor's in Employee Relations at Michigan State University, she worked in the field before deciding to pursue a master's degree. What sparked her return to the classroom? Mentorship and practical advice during an undergrad internship made it clear that a graduate degree was the "golden ticket" for advancing in human resources.

Finding the Right Fit

Jackie emphasizes the importance of researching programs to find the best fit. She didn't simply chase prestige—she sought a university with a top-tier HR program, ultimately returning to Michigan State for her master's in labor and industrial relations. Her advice to prospective students: visit campuses, explore programs, and choose the environment where you feel most comfortable and supported.

Preparation and Persistence Lead to Success

Jackie credits her undergraduate experience with teaching her how to study, manage time, and persevere through academic challenges—skills that were crucial for succeeding in grad school. She highlights the unique benefits of a smaller graduate cohort, where close relationships with professors and peers created a supportive network.

Applying Graduate Education in the Real World

Throughout her career—in manufacturing and academia—Jackie has leaned on her social science background, which helped her empathize, communicate, and balance employee and company interests. She stresses that passion is more important than chasing a paycheck. Decades into her HR career, she still finds her work deeply rewarding.

Final Advice for Future Graduate Students

Jackie's overarching message is clear: Find your passion, research your options thoroughly, and set yourself up for success by choosing a graduate program that's the right fit for you—not just the one with the highest salary prospects.

Eager to learn more and be inspired by Jackie's story? Listen to the full episode of "Victors in Grad School" and start charting your own path to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week you and I are on a journey. I say that every week. But it truly is the case that education and the journey, the what you're doing right now, whether you're at the very beginning just starting to think about this, or you're maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And from the just ideation stage, where you're just thinking about it all the way to the completion stage can take a short period of time, it can take a long period of time. It really is determinant on where you are at your point, at the point in which you are today. And every person is at a different point, and it can take people different amounts of time to be able to get to that education. This podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. It is here to be able to help you learn about things that you can do to be successful in this process, whether it's applying, whether it's going through graduate school, whatever it may be. I love every week being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school before you, that can share their own experiences about what worked, maybe what didn't work as well as things that they learned along the way. And today, today we've got another great guest. Jackie Halligan is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And Jacqui works at the University of Michigan Flint in the Human Resources office. And she has her own education journey that led her not only into professional work, but also to the University of Michigan ultimately over the last few years that she's been here. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with her today, to learn from her and to have you learn from her experiences as well. Jackie, thanks so much for being here.

Jackie Halligan [00:02:04]: I'm excited. Thank you, Chris, for the invitation. I appreciate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, it is definitely my pleasure and I'm excited to be able to talk to you today. And as I said, it is a journey that everyone goes on when they go and make a decision to go to graduate school. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University, you got a Bachelor of Arts in Employee Relations and then you went off, you worked for a little Bit of time there, there was a point, but there had to have been a point in time, whether it was during undergraduate work, whether it was during that, when you were working, where you said to yourself, I need to keep going. I need to get some more education to get to where I want to be. Can you bring me back in time and talk to me about that period, that point, and what was the spark that made you make that decision?

Jackie Halligan [00:02:55]: So if I go back actually to my undergraduate experience, I did two internships, one of which was at the city of Flint, actually in their labor relations department. And the director of labor relations at that time was getting his master's from Michigan State in labor relations. And his advice to me was that human resources is a very. Now, this was a while ago, but human resources is a very difficult field to break into. And that he felt it was important to get a master's degree to really be able to work in the field and have a good job. And he said to me, but once you get your master's degree, you'll be set, you'll have a great career, you'll do well for yourself. But it really is kind of like the, you know, the entry ticket, the golden ticket, as they call it, that to get a good start and get a good career in human resources. And so obviously, these number of years later, that's something that still resonates with me and certainly was a piece of the very important puzzle for me to consider graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:51]: I know that ultimately you made the decision to go back to Michigan State to get a master's degree in labor and industrial relations. And there are many programs that are out there. You could have selected any of those programs. So as you were working and just making those decisions about where you wanted to go, what you wanted to do to be able to make that next step. Talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide that Michigan State was the place where you wanted to go?

Jackie Halligan [00:04:24]: So I was probably a little bit different than other people in high school. I knew what I wanted to do. Probably a senior. I mean, it wasn't like I was a freshman, but probably by when I was a senior and I was looking at programs, I actually came across what at the time was gmi, which is now Kettering, they had a labor relations program. And I was researching and reading about it and just that was it. Like it just clicked and it made sense. And so when I started to really think about going into undergrad and wanting to study labor relations or human resources at that Time there weren't a lot of HR programs that you could get a degree in. And Michigan State was actually one of the top, still is one of the top schools in the country.

Jackie Halligan [00:05:04]: You can get a human resources management or labor relations degree. And so I knew going into school, even as a freshman, that's what I was going to study. I, I've done it now for decades, quite frankly, I've never wavered from wanting to work in hr. So I just sort of did my research, found that Michigan State was one of the best universities at that time in the country to study this. And that's where I went.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Simple as that. And the thing that is interesting is I think that, as you said, you may be a little unique because not every student knows that they want to do human resources right from the get go as they go into college. And as you go through, through college, as you go through your undergrad, you move into your graduate degree, there is a different way in which you are educated, different expectations, different perspectives, different ways of learning. And you were successful in going through that graduate work and then going back out into the world after that and taking that knowledge into the workplace. Every individual has to find their path for themselves. They have to find the way in which that they can be successful in that transition, not only into graduate school, but through graduate school. So for you, as you think back to your graduate education, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you stepped into that graduate work, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate education journey?

Jackie Halligan [00:06:32]: I actually would go back to undergrad, which set me up for success, because when I was in high school, I used to be able to get my homework done and never have to like, crack a book or do homework, as they call it these days. And so in undergrad, I had to teach myself to study. I didn't know how to study. And I never been taught, never had to learn. And so in undergrad, learning how to study, how to read, how to focus, how to stay dedicated, how to set your priorities, know everything that's going on from your class perspective, and when tests are and papers are due, that probably set me up in the best way to succeed in graduate school was just the fundamental of knowing how to study. I tell my children I struggled in undergrad in trigonometry, I'd never had it. And I, for whatever reason, the professor and I just couldn't, like, I couldn't grasp his teaching. It just didn't work for me.

Jackie Halligan [00:07:23]: And I ended up Teaching myself trigonometry. I sat in the library for 13 hours at Michigan State, started on page one and taught myself trigonometry before the end of the semester. So just learning how to study, I think was important for me. But then I think about like in grad school specifically, and what were the factors that would help me succeed. While Michigan State is a obviously very large university and you get into those accounting classes in undergrad, you might have 200, 300 students. Graduate school, especially labor and industrial relations, is a relatively small school and they have about 100 students carrying on through the year. It's a one year program, or was at the time, and they would accept about 100 students each year. So it was a relatively small program.

Jackie Halligan [00:08:07]: So there you get to know the dean. And it was a graduate school. The undergrad was in social sciences. So this was dedicated grad school. So you get to know the dean, you get to know the professors, you develop very strong relationships with your co students, your peers in the courses, because you, quite frankly, you, you see the same students day in and day out. Many of you are in, you might be in the same class three or four times with, you know, multiple individuals. So I think for that, for me it was more the, the uniqueness or the style, kind of the small scale of the program, that sort of personalized approach where they knew you, you knew them. And so like if anything ever came up, you could go talk to the professor and he or she would listen and understand if you were facing a challenge and try to work with you.

Jackie Halligan [00:08:51]: So I think that for me was probably the most important key to success was that small scale.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:56]: I know that as you completed that degree, you went off, you worked in a number of different places over your career, you ended up here. As you think back to the education that you in your graduate degree, how do you find that you pull from that education on a daily basis?

Jackie Halligan [00:09:13]: So both of my degrees technically are from the College of Social Science. So I have a lot of background in psychology, sociology, economics. And so I think I've looked at my background. I've spent a lot of time in manufacturing, US based manufacturing companies. So a lot of time spent in employee relations and so that sort of more social focus and developing relationships, being transparent, communicating, you know what you can when you can. I have people tell me like, Jackie, you can talk to anybody. Like I can go out on the shop floor and I can talk to somebody. I can talk to the Chancellor here very comfortably at UFM Flint.

Jackie Halligan [00:09:50]: So I can kind of scale everybody and Talk to people in a manner that makes them hopefully feel comfortable. So I think for me it was more the social science part, an aspect of my degree that helped me connect with people and also be empathetic and understand when people are facing challenges. I actually had a peer of mine. This was literally like 20 plus years ago. I was leaving one company and going to another. And as I was leaving, one of my peers said, jackie, you from an HR perspective are the best person I've worked with to balance the company interest with the employee interests. And that's a fine line when you try to understand what's important to the employee and how can we help them succeed and have a great experience here. But also what is the company trying to achieve and how do you balance those two out? Because they're not always in parallel.

Jackie Halligan [00:10:38]: They're not working in harmony all the time. So how do you balance that, maybe even be conflicting interests and try to find that best solution? And so I think all of that from my degree and that kind of mindset of social sciences helped me pretty much throughout my career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:53]: As you think back to your graduate education and you think about the things that you had to do to find success, and you think about other students that are maybe thinking about graduate school, whether it's in human resources or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Jackie Halligan [00:11:17]: You know, one piece of advice that I give people is some people will talk about what I'll call chasing the money. Like, oh, I want to go study this because I'll earn, you know, good money and I'll make a good wage and I'll have a great way of life. And I always say, find your passion. Like, I've been doing human resources for 35 years and I just moved to Flint about. Back to Flint area about less than three years ago. And I really thought about, like, what do I want to do? It was an opportunity for me to do something different if I wanted to. And I actually took some time and reflected on it and I said, you know what? I still want to work in HR 30 plus years later. This is what I want to do.

Jackie Halligan [00:11:52]: So I think for me, the most important thing is find that passion. Find what you enjoy. That's going to get you up in the morning, get you excited. You're going to find it rewarding. Don't chase the paycheck. It's not worth it. So I think that's it. And I think, you know, going back to what I sort of said about, you know, Michigan State and the graduate school is do your research, you know, look at multiple options, look at multiple universities, look at their programs, go visit the campuses if you haven't done that yet, and find where you feel.

Jackie Halligan [00:12:20]: I hate to use the term home, but, you know, find where you feel most at home and where you can most likely succeed. Because pre grad and graduate school are hard, hard work and you want to make sure that you're setting yourself up for success. And I think finding the right fit from a program perspective is most important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:38]: Well, Jackie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I completely agree with you on that finding that right fit and being able to do what you have to do to be able to take that next step. So thank you for sharing all of that and I truly wish you all the best.

Jackie Halligan [00:12:55]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:57]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on the path to a graduate degree is a transformative journey, full of decisions, challenges, and opportunities for growth. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Milanna Jones, a city council member for the City of Pontiac and a recent MBA graduate from the University of Michigan-Flint, to delve into what it really takes to succeed in graduate school and how it can shape your professional and personal life.

The Power of Purposeful Decision-Making

One of the core themes of Milanna's story is purposeful decision-making. After completing her undergraduate degree, Milanna knew she wanted more than just academic credentials; she sought practical, strategic leadership skills to amplify her efforts in community leadership and nonprofit work. Her experience highlights the importance of understanding your "why" before taking the leap into grad school. Milanna emphasizes that taking time to reflect on what you hope to gain—beyond simply career advancement—can help clarify the right program and concentration for you.

Resilience and Prioritization

Milanna's journey wasn't without challenges. Just two years before starting her MBA, she faced a life-threatening medical event that led to a disability. Her story is a testament to the power of resilience and prioritization. Through deliberate time management—scheduling dedicated days for reading, assignments, collaboration, and, most importantly, self-care—she was able to thrive academically while navigating significant personal challenges. Her advice? "Prioritize yourself in this process, because you are the only thing that's going to get you through this."

Building Connections and Skills for Real-World Impact

The episode also explores how the right program can foster meaningful connections with peers and professors, both locally and nationwide. Milanna shares how her concentration in organizational leadership equipped her with vital skills in policy analysis, negotiation, and team motivation—skills she now uses daily in her role on city council and in nonprofit initiatives.

Looking Beyond the Finish Line

Finally, Milanna encourages prospective grad students to focus less on the distant goal of graduation and more on the growth that can happen each semester. By setting incremental goals and remaining open to new experiences and knowledge, you can maximize what you take away from your studies.

Milanna's story is a powerful reminder that graduate school is about more than just earning a degree; it's about shaping who you are and how you impact the world. Ready to be inspired? Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School and start your own journey with a fresh perspective.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Milanna Jones [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to.

Milanna Jones [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week, every week. I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I do, every week. But it is truly a journey because no matter where you are, you're thinking about graduate school. Whether it's you're at the very beginning, you're just starting out that process where you're thinking for yourself, is this the right thing for you? Or you could be further along in the process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Maybe you applied, maybe you got accepted, you're getting ready to start graduate school. Or maybe you're in graduate school and you see that light at the end of the tunnel and you're figuring out what you're going to do next. Wherever you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences, different backgrounds that can share with you the journey that they went on as they got their own graduate degree. And today we got another great guest. Milanna Jones is with us, and Milanna Jones is a city council member for the city of Pontiac, and she just finished up her graduate degree, her MBA degree at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have her here to tell her own story and to share that with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: Milanna, thanks so much for being here today.

Milanna Jones [00:01:29]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis, for having me here. My name is Milanna Jones. I am currently the city councilwoman for District 2 of Pontiac, and I'm a recent graduate from University of Michigan, Flint. I received my MBA with a concentration in organizational leadership in August this year, August 2025.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Always a good feeling when you get to walk across that stage and get to that light at the end of the tunnel. So one of the questions that I wanted to start with was really to take you back in time, because I know you did your undergraduate work at Purdue Global. And at some point during that period of time, as you were going through that undergraduate degree in business administration, you were involved, you did a lot of different things, and you saw that light at the end of the tunnel. But at some point within either your undergraduate degree or that time between your undergraduate degree and when you decided to start in graduate school, you made a decision for yourself, which Was that you wanted to take that step. Bring me back to that moment. What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was the right step at that time?

Milanna Jones [00:02:37]: So going back to that moment, which would precisely be August 2022, as someone who was already heavily involved in community leadership, I was looking for the opportunity to really strengthen those leadership skills. I was heavily involved with nonprofit work, two different 501C3s to be specific. And I just knew that the MBA was the route that I wanted to go at that time. Although I had not taken the steps to pursue it. I wanted to the tools to lead more effectively, more proactively, strategically, rather than reactively, which is, you know, now reflecting, which is what I was doing at the bachelor level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]: You were thinking about that. You made that decision, you decided that you were going to take that next step. I know there was about a year between that August 2022 that you mentioned and when you decided to start it in August of 2023. So during that period of time, I'm sure you did your research. You. You had to figure out for yourself, what, what am I looking for in this process? What kind of program is going to be right for me? Is it right down the road? Is it further away? I mean, you did a global program. Is it going to be in Michigan? Is it going to be somewhere else? Walk me through that process for yourself. What was going through your head in regards to the things that were most important to you? Why were those the most important? And ultimately you decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:00]: What made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Milanna Jones [00:04:05]: So during that year gap between my bachelor's and starting with U of M Flint, I did take a couple of graduate level courses with Purdue Global. At that time, I realized that I wanted to look for a program, potentially one that was more interactive, Something that helped me acquire the practical skills of working with other people and additional academic rigor. Which then brings us back to the question of why um Flint? Um Flint was the only school that I applied to. It was my first choice, my first preferred choice. And although I tell myself, don't put all your eggs in one basket, I was determined to pursue U of M Flint. I read the website word for word many times while I was constructing my statement of purpose, going through the application process, and soon going on to meet with my academic advisor who marveled over how much information I retained about the program and each specific concentration. I knew exactly which one fit the best based on the description online and based on my conversation with others who have been in the Wolverine family now, it's worth mentioning that previously I did attend University of Michigan Dearborn and my mother and both of my grandparents are all graduates from U of M. One went to U of M Dearborn and two went to U of M Ann Arbor.

Milanna Jones [00:05:28]: Which then brings us back to the question, why U of M Flint? For me, why am I the first to pursue this campus? And specifically it is because of the flexibility offered in the program and the high quality of academic rigor. There are many wonderful professors. There are two specific, in my mind that really pushed me outside of my comfort zone. While supporting me, I felt their commitment to really helping me learn and achieve the tools that I wanted in my personal life and in my professional experiences. So U of M Flint was, was initially my only choice. And now reflecting on this journey really solidifies why I gravitated there. That's where I was meant to be. That's where I connected most with the professors and with my peers.

Milanna Jones [00:06:15]: I've developed close relationships with colleagues in Michigan and out of the state just from being here and working with U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: Now, for every student that goes into graduate school there, there truly is a transition that they go through. There's a transition as into graduate school. A transition as you go through graduate school and you found success, you graduated like we just talked about this past year. And as you think back to this experience in coming into graduate school, going through graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

Milanna Jones [00:07:01]: It's interesting because of my unique experience entering the graduate program. When I started in 2023, I was just two years out from a life threatening medical tragedy. I spent months in the hospital. I am physically disabled. And it created a challenge engaging with other people while living in those circumstances. So what I needed to do to find success was really commit to prioritization and time management. And maybe other grad students say this as well, but I want to break it down specifically. So there were, there was some days where I just knew I had to focus on my own health and I couldn't look at any of the school related projects.

Milanna Jones [00:07:46]: There were some days that I knew I needed to dedicate to reading, reading through the material before I even glanced at the assignment. So what I did was I was intentional with my schedule. I reserved Sundays for rest, Mondays and Tuesdays, depending on how the Weeks go for the schools, a couple of days solely for reading, and then after that had to commit to the work itself. And collaborating with others was more so full time. I would say I even did that on Sundays, which became more fun as time went on. But I had to, you know, really dig deep within myself and focus on my own self health in order to achieve success in the UM MBA program. And that is really one of the biggest suggestions I would give to any incoming grad student. Aside from the work and aside from, you know, the stress and the deadlines, you really have to prioritize yourself in this process because you are the only thing that's going to get you through this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:43]: So you did complete your degree and you are now a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. You've got that MBA in hand. Now that you've completed that degree. How do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing in city council, but also the next steps in other things that you're planning to do in nonprofit or other work in the future?

Milanna Jones [00:09:07]: Because I chose the organizational leadership concentration, the skills that I gained really most prepare me to do policy analysis and implement team motivation. I think that is worth mentioning twice. You know, emphasizing team motivation and implementing initiatives in a diverse community is one of the biggest takeaways that I have gotten from the U of M Flint MBA program. Specifically because those courses that really delve into negotiations and organizational behavior, those provide the real world skills and necessary knowledge to navigate any business transaction or potentially conflict in the community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: As you look back at your graduate education and the experience that you had going through that graduate degree for yourself, and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be for an MBA or something else. What are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Milanna Jones [00:10:12]: I would actually suggest that they step away from their end result because I think oftentimes individuals focus on a career or they have a job that they are striving to advance to. And I think that line of thinking really limits what you can take away from this program. So upon entering, I would recommend for students to look at the next year. What do they want to build upon in the next year and what sequence of courses are they taking to help them get there. And that's how individuals can truly align their interests and their personal values with the different concentration that are available at U of M Flint. Because the classes that you take, they're going to provide you with those tools that you need to advance yourself to the next level, of course. But looking in the shorter term, I think will help students or any incoming graduate student attain success faster and more efficiently, because we are looking more at the immediate next level, the pathway that you need to take to advance yourself each year. And that's how by the end of the two years, you get to the point of you're now a graduate, you obtain these skills in all of these different sectors because you took it one step at a time, or even break it down to one semester at a time.

Milanna Jones [00:11:37]: What do you want to get better at by the end of the semester and then commit to that one goal at a time?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:43]: Well, Milanna, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for sharing this part of your journey. I know your journey's not over, but there's still time. There's still time and you'll be using this degree now for many years to come. But I truly want to say thank you for coming here today, for sharing these words of wisdom, and I wish you all the best.

Milanna Jones [00:12:03]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis. It was my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare today. Be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering grad school but feeling unsure about the process, the expectations, or even where to start? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School is a perfect listen for anyone navigating these questions. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Shelby Newport, Program Director for the Arts Administration program at the University of Michigan-Flint, for a candid conversation about finding success—and fulfillment—through graduate education.

Shelby's journey is a relatable one. She takes listeners back to her undergraduate days at Cornell College, where a mix of curiosity and an honest assessment of her skills led her to pursue further education. Recognizing that she needed more specialized training to reach her career goals in costume design, Shelby set her sights on an MFA—a common terminal degree in the arts. Her story of researching programs, attending the nerve-wracking (but rewarding) University and Resident Theater Association (URTA) interviews, and ultimately choosing Purdue for its supportive faculty and fit with her aspirations offers an inside look at the decision-making process for prospective grad students.

A central theme in the episode is that grad school is a journey—often challenging, always transformative, and rarely linear. Shelby opens up about the transition from undergrad to graduate student, emphasizing that the switch isn't just academic; it's personal, too. Learning to "dress the part" and step into the role of both student and teacher was part of her process, as was embracing the intense, focused workload that a graduate program demands.

Shelby's advice for current and prospective students is refreshing in its honesty. She speaks about the importance of being open to change, both in yourself and in your career path. Sometimes, the direction you envision at the start isn't where you'll end up—and that's not only okay, but often leads to unexpected opportunities and growth. Her own path led from regional theater work to a fulfilling career teaching and program direction, and her network—built by seizing opportunities and following her interests—has played a crucial role every step of the way.

For anyone considering grad school or already in the midst of it, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Shelby Newport's story is a reminder that while the journey may be unpredictable, your openness, effort, and willingness to grow will serve you well. Tune in to hear her story—you'll walk away inspired and a little more prepared for your own graduate school adventure.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School. Where we have conversations with students, alumni. And experts about what it takes to. Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited that you're back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. As you are looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school. No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey, because graduate school is a journey. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes some planning to not only get in, but get through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And that's what this podcast is all about. It's to provide you with some of those tools that you need, those tools for your toolbox that will help you to be able to find success and sooner. And that's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you to share some of their own experiences and allow for you to be able to learn from the things that they learned along the way as well. This week, we've got another great guest. Shelby Newport is with us, and Shelby is the program director for the Arts Administration Program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here, to have her talk a little bit about her own experiences and learn from her. Shelby, thanks so much for being here here today.

Shelby Newport [00:01:26]: Yeah, thank you. This is exciting to talk about and remember my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Well, I'm really excited that you're here today, and it is a journey, and I think one of the things that I would love to do is kind of take you back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Cornell College and in theater in art, and then at some point during that time during your undergrad, you made a choice that you were going to continue on to get the mfa, and you did go and get an mfa. But bring me back to that point in your thinking and why you chose to go further and to go on.

Shelby Newport [00:02:03]: Yeah, that moment is really a specific moment for me. I mean, I can sort of put myself in the position. I was a work study student in the costume shop at Cornell College and learning skills. But Cornell College is a small, private liberal arts college in Iowa, and our faculty was relatively small, taught me so many things, and it was the best place for me, but I didn't have really specific training in costume design and construction. And so, you know, sitting there doing my Work study job, working on a production, thinking. I think it was basically the, the end of my junior year, my third year in school, I had gone away and worked in the summer at different summer professional companies. Colorado Shakespeare Festival for, for two summers in a RO was thinking about where do I want to move? What is next? What is the job that I want? And knowing that there was going to be a lot of jobs, but what was that next step? And I felt like I didn't have the skills I needed with only my one year left of undergrad to do the job. Like I was leaning towards Chicago and working professionally in theater.

Shelby Newport [00:03:14]: And so I needed more skills. And the mfa, the Master of Fine Arts, is a terminal degree in our arts field and it is a doing degree. So I knew that with intensive three years in a program that I would hopefully leave those three years with more skills than I had at that time. And of course, as it happens, during the journey, you find out other things about yourself and who you know, where you want to go and who you want to be. And I, I gained a lot of different skills that I couldn't have expected. So my path and the job I wanted to do changed during those three years. But I decided that I wanted to go right away and not take time off between undergrad and graduate school now.

Shelby Newport [00:03:53]: And you made the decision to go to Purdue. Purdue University. And there's a lot of MFA programs all across the country. And I'm sure you did some, some review, some research to try to determine for yourself what was the best program for you. Talk to me about that search process and what you had to do to come to that final conclusion of going to Purdue.

Shelby Newport [00:04:16]: Yeah, in the arts we have this, I think, somewhat unique organization called erda. The acronym is University and Resident Theater Association. And that organization run interviews and auditions for MFA programs, among other things, as a, as an organization and association of university programs. And so at that time they ran three interview dates where you went in person in New York, Chicago or San Francisco. You signed up for those and you set up a table, basically a booth for yourself, your portfolio and a board, maybe some samples of your work. And so I selected the New York one and my boyfriend at the time, my husband, now we drove to New York, New York from Iowa with my things and parked my Jetta in New York City and stayed in a fancy hotel, set up my booth and you set up your area, your table. Then you leave for four hours and then you come back and they give you a list of the grad schools that want to interview you. And then you have, I think it was 10 or 15 minutes with each of the school representatives that wanted to meet you.

Shelby Newport [00:05:22]: And then after that, I think you got a piece of paper that said, like, next step interviews with your next tier. And in our field, it's always like, oh, how many IRTA interviews did you get? Oh, how many did you get? And there's probably 40 school representatives at these. And they're the. Mostly the major programs. The really top tier MFA programs like Yale don't go to this. They don't need to recruit in that way. So it's that next tier of major universities. University of Iowa, Purdue, Florida has a great program.

Shelby Newport [00:05:56]: University of North Dakota, Montana. Like, those programs were all there and talking to you. So you're meeting someone, maybe the costume designer, maybe it's another designer, because all the design students are doing this at the same time. And it's a real fast speed dating moment of like, tell me about your program, I'll tell you about myself. Do we click? I don't know, is there chemistry? So I had a few really great ones. I think my number was nine. I think I had nine on my list of people who wanted to talk to me. So that's reasonable, right? And of that 9, 4 sort of showed real interest and, like, felt like a pretty good match.

Shelby Newport [00:06:32]: Purdue was in that and University of Wisconsin, Madison was in that group, and then University of Maryland was in that group. And I really liked the faculty that I met with. They seemed to like the direction that I was going, that had art and theater blended in it. I didn't. I wasn't a purist in my undergrad. And then Purdue actually offered, you know, you're driving back from New York to Iowa. If you want to stop in Indiana, we'll put you up and you can see the house or can see the university. We just built a new building.

Shelby Newport[00:07:00]: Come check it. And so the free room for the undergrad was a real draw. So we stopped there and checked it out, and the new building was a real draw. But my, the thing that really hooked me was the faculty member. And the faculty member, Joel Ebarb remains a good friend and mentor now, and he was the reason I selected that place. And he told me something on that day that I think really shaped my choice. And that is, do you think you want to be a Broadway designer or a film and television designer? And I said, no, I don't think I do. All right, well, then find a school that matches the kind of work you want to do.

Shelby Newport [00:07:35]: And Joel Worked in Chicago, he was a regional designer. He had a couple of international things to his name, but he was an academic and an educator. And he said, do you want to teach? I think so. And so find the school that does that. If you want to be a Broadway designer, go to New York and go to a school on the east coast, because those connections are going to do that for you. And so that really started to shape that next set of journey of months of like, what does this look like for me? And why is location of graduate school important? And I don't think I ever thought about that before.

Shelby Newport [00:08:05]: He said that you ultimately did choose to go to Purdue. They selected you, you selected them, got to that point. And any student that moves into a graduate program, there is going to be a transition. There's definitely a transition in the way that you're educated. There's a transition in the expectations of your faculty, the expectations that you put on yourself. You found success, you got through the program, you graduated, you got that mfa. So as you think back to those transitions that you went through going from undergrad into your mfa, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Shelby Newport [00:08:53]: I mean, ultimately, yes, I was successful, but it was really hard. And it's a three year program. MFA's in different areas are in, are different lengths. So my husband also has an MFA and his was a two year intensive program. So they have different, they have different things, but mine was three years. But I think that middle zone, no matter how long your program is, that halfway point, is really the hardest moment. And when I think about lows of my program, it is that moment you're really questioning why you're doing this, who you are, what's going to come out on the other end. And at the end feels so far the success of what that, how that success is going to look.

Shelby Newport [00:09:31]: It seems so far away. So I think what I did to set myself up for success, I guess the things that come to mind because I was also becoming an adult, because I chose to go right from undergrad, I was relatively young and my partner and I, we decided to move to Indiana together. So we graduate from Cornell and we move to Indiana together. We have our first apartment, we're like figuring out how to be adults and make our own dinners and like be pay the bills, do life. So I think for me that setting up for success was just stepping into an adult. And that's what graduate School is going to be. And it's going to be different than undergrad. I'm going to step into this.

Shelby Newport [00:10:09]: I also had a graduate teaching assistantship, so I taught not my first semester, but the second semester and then continued to teach every semester a class. So that helped me become that different kind of student because I was teaching undergraduate students sewing, stage costuming and stage makeup classes. And I think that even though maybe I didn't feel like an adult all the time, like a real grownup, teaching that class helped me live into that reality. So. And as a costume designer, that clothes and dress. Dress for the job you want, right? That kind of philosophy or. I also really like the mantra of when you look good, you feel good. So I have really distinct memories in grad school of like, dressing for the part.

Shelby Newport [00:10:51]: Like I would, you know, I go and I feel adult and I'm ready to go. And I think that the, the, the biggest difference of the educational model for me was the intensity and the specificity of the kind of classes that you're taking, which I know for lots of different kind of graduate programs, but you've made a choice to move in, to funnel down into a more specific path. And had I maybe been a little bit more mentally prepared for that, that could have helped that second year intensity. I think, because you just have no break from the content that is this thing that you've selected. It's all that. You don't get to go to your anthropology class and switch your brain to something else. You gotta find other ways to relax and be an adult and stretch these other parts of your life. So anyways, lots of stories there about how I found, I think, but ultimately it was stepping into the role.

Shelby Newport [00:11:43]: And even when I didn't feel like it, dressing the part and being ready to learn and teach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]: Completely understand. Now, you finished up the mfa, and I know that that professor initially asked you, do you want to teach? And you got to the end of the mfa and you did decide to teach and talk to me about that because every student has to figure out for themselves what direction they want, want to go. And you could have gone to regional theater, you could have gone to national theater, you could have done many different things with that degree. You chose to continue on and you, you got a position here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and started teaching. But talk to me about that decision process for yourself.

Shelby Newport [00:12:28]: Yeah, so some, some was decided for me. So my partner at the time, you know, he was there with me three years working and kind of paying the bills. And so we decided that after that was his turn to pursue his mfa. So he went through a very different process of selecting an MFA program, but ultimately found Cranbrook Art Academy, which is in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. And so that brought us to Michigan first. So we knew we were going to move here. And then my plan was to pay the bills and figure it out and decide what that looked like. So we moved to the area.

Shelby Newport [00:13:00]: I had sent out a lot of resumes, academic, applied for a lot of things, but not a ton of bites at that moment. And then once we were here, I said yes to a variety of jobs. I did a student film once I was in Detroit and the film industry in Detroit, in I guess this was 2009. There were lots of incentives for Michigan film companies to produce films in Michigan. So I jumped on quite a few of those when we first moved here on a gig basis. And then one of those CV letters that I had sent out earlier in the year. And that kind of network connection yielded a phone call that said, I'm the chair at University of Michigan, Flint, and I have one class that I need filled. And I heard that you moved here.

Shelby Newport [00:13:42]: And I think I got your resume, but I found you through another faculty member through an organization. We know each other. So he gave me your phone number. Do you want to come teach for us? And I was like, sure. And actually this was like three days after school had started because they didn't have an instructor, so can you teach next week? And so I was like, sure, let's figure this out. So I did my first year of teaching at University of Michigan, Fluent as a lecturer, one class in the fall. And then I taught four classes in the winter. And then they ran a search for a tenure stream faculty member.

Shelby Newport [00:14:12]: I think your original question is, like, how did I find that? But it felt right. Like, it felt like, oh, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be sharing this knowledge and being an exciting, interested again, like relatively young in my career. Dress the part and step in front of the classroom and teach some intro to Theater class to University of Michigan Flint student. And then each step of the way it was like, less. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. So I didn't worry too much about that tenure position. It kind of. I mean, luckily it found me and I was a good candidate for them.

Shelby Newport [00:14:45]: And I had that trial period. I didn't worry too much about tenure and getting that next step. I just said, like, if we're here, I'm going to do a good job. And I'M going to pursue regional work. And what would get me tenure at the University of Michigan? As if it's my job, right? Like if I'm. I'm going to. It is my job. So I'm going to move forward in that process as if we're going to stay here.

Shelby Newport [00:15:04]: And we didn't know what we were going to do then after that. But ultimately we've made Michigan our home and both of us have found creative communities that have allowed us to do both professional creative work. So I've made lots of connections over the last 15 years with professional regional companies that have then provided me that professional costume designer work and the teaching work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: You've recently stepped into the role of director of the Arts Administration Master's degree program, which is a Rackham graduate degree here at the University of Michigan, Flint. For many years, you worked very closely with your undergraduate students and you still do. And now you're working with graduate students. Talk to me about that transition and what it's now like to not only be a director of a graduate program, but also in working with graduate students. What's that like? And what are you learning from that?

Shelby Newport [00:15:57]: This was an easy yes, as they say, to step into this role. I was really excited to think differently about this program after the past director had left the unit university. And the moment for me in my teaching journey and where I was at as a designer and a leader on our campus at University of Michigan. Flynn. I think it all pointed towards, yeah, let's grow this graduate program. And. And I think I'm the right person to do that. So I found lots of joy this last year in spending time meeting each of the graduate students.

Shelby Newport [00:16:28]: We have 22 students in that program right now, and I think I've probably had one on ones with all of them at least an hour, if not, you know, two or three over the who getting to know them and understanding how this program is serving them. Then I did a big curriculum revamp in the fall from those conversations, figuring out how we can shape this program for the future and make it serve a lot of different purposes for a lot of different arts administrators and using all that experience that I've had over the last 15 years, both in the classroom. But a lot of my network connections of the creative community around Michigan and the United States have. Has already yielded some great network connections for these students. And I think that goes back to what I said about why I chose my graduate program. You need to build a network for yourself in the community that you want to work and so my Midwest, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, kind of, that works for me. That's who I am. That's where I'm designing.

Shelby Newport [00:17:27]: And I made a name for myself professionally in that way. And so I tell the students that same thing. Let's find you this network. And if you're kind of flip based, how do you want to branch that out to metro Detroit? And here's the people I can put you in touch with. And I think, lucky for me also, my husband, Mark Baker, who is a designer and furniture maker. His MFA is in 3D design. His museum work has actually really helped support other parts of the arts administration program. And our network as a pair and a creative couple in this area has actually really helped.

Shelby Newport [00:17:58]: And I have a couple students doing internships out in places that Mark's connections have helped helped me get those students connections. So I think the network connections has been the biggest growth. And I'm very excited for the students to continue to build those. And teaching the graduate students has been really rewarding too, I think as you teach undergrads over a cycle, you teach lower levels, you teach upper levels, you teach independent studies, and students change. The graduate students talk, talk differently. And I think it's a great, refreshing moment to make myself shift into a higher level vocabulary and teaching style and then go back and teach sewing to undergrads who are learning it for the very first time. So that has been a great challenge for me and I think brought a lot of happiness this year to back to teaching that maybe I didn't have in that cycle of who do I want to be now?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:56]: So you've worked with students in many different aspects. You've been a graduate student yourself. As you look back, either at your own graduate education or you are looking at the students that you're working with now as graduate students. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education, whether it be in the arts or some other area that would help them find success sooner?

Shelby Newport [00:19:18]: Openness comes to mind first. I think that specificity of selecting a graduate program and making that choice feels like, all right, I'm funneling in, this is what I'm going to do. And somehow if we can go into that with an openness to what the experience might yield success and network connections might come faster. Some of the students who have that really specific idea of how this degree is going to move them forward sometimes get stuck in that and miss opportunities or relationships that could also blossom into something else. I just had the really lovely opportunity to take graduates and undergraduates to Japan on a study abroad. And I had two of the arts administration graduate students with me and and three graduate students from the MBA and that master's program in business and organizational leadership. And their thought process and processing of an international experience was really great to witness. And I think all of them didn't necessarily expect to be in that international experience, but in advising and in conversations about what you want to do, it was like, oh yeah, I can fit this into my schedule.

Shelby Newport [00:20:28]: This makes sense. Let's align this with the curriculum and grab ahold of this opportunity. And so seeing them bloom from taking a hold of that opportunity, I guess, is just a picture of what I'm trying to say. Like, be open to things you didn't expect to happen and see what comes from that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:46]: Well, Shelby, I just want to say thank you for sharing your own journey today and for the ongoing journey that you're on, and I truly appreciate you sharing that today and I wish you all the best.

Shelby Newport [00:20:57]: Thank you so much, Chris. It was great to talk about it and hopefully there's some pieces that resonate with folks. I think this conversation is has yet again reminded me that once you pick a job, it's not your job for life. And we are all on a journey, right? So thanks for letting me relive mine a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint. Edu Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Considering graduate school or already deep in your studies? Navigating this journey can feel overwhelming—full of choices, challenges, and the constant pursuit of personal and professional growth. This week's "Victors in Grad School" episode is a must-listen for anyone at any stage of that journey, as Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Cam McLeman, director of the Data Analytics program at University of Michigan-Flint, to share valuable insights that will resonate with students, alumni, and educators alike.

Dr. McLeman's story is one many can relate to: a passionate undergraduate uncertain about career direction, he experimented with disciplines before returning to his true academic love—mathematics. His decision to pursue a PhD, driven by a thirst for deeper knowledge rather than a prescribed career path, will inspire those who view learning as a lifelong process. But his journey didn't stop with earning that doctorate—transitioning into the realm of data analytics, Dr. McLeman demonstrates the power of adapting skills and embracing new opportunities as the landscape of higher education and industry evolves.

The conversation dives deep into practical wisdom for succeeding at the graduate level. Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies, Dr. McLeman notes, is much like moving from high school to college—you're expected to take far more ownership of your pathway. The self-driven nature of graduate school requires not just academic diligence but also proactive organization, advocacy, and a willingness to push beyond comfort zones. Dr. McLeman highlights the importance of building connections: with faculty, with industry, and especially with peers who are further along the journey. "Don't struggle in silence," he urges, pointing to the wealth of support services campuses offer—from academic assistance to mental health and disability support. Success often hinges on reaching out and taking advantage of these resources before issues become overwhelming.

Perhaps the most compelling theme fro

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week, every week. I love being able to bring you on this journey because it is a journey. You have made a choice. You've made a choice that either you're looking at graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school. No matter where you are, whether you're just applying, you're in graduate school or beyond, this is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: And you have definite things that you can learn to be able to prepare yourself not only to make the transition into graduate school, but things that you can do to be able to be even more successful as you go through that entire graduate school process. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to pick up some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to figure out some things that you might even be able to do right today. Or as you go further on, to help you in this journey. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Cam McLeman is here. And Cam is the director of our data analytics program here at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: And he had his own graduate school journey that we're gonna be talking about today. Also works with graduate students, so he definitely has some perspectives on what it's like to work with the graduate students and what he's seen with them. So I'm really excited to have him here, and I am really looking forward to having this conversation today. Cam, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:01:44]: Thank you very much for having me, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: It is my pleasure. I am really excited to be able to talk to you today, to be able to delve a little bit deeper into your own journey and see what we can learn along the way. And I know you did your undergrad work at Harvey Mudd College and got a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics. And at some point during that time during your undergraduate work, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on with your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about kind of what you were thinking and what made you decide that you wanted to go on to graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:15]: Yeah, so I came into undergrad pretty confident that I wanted to do mathematics. In some capacity. I also had a passing interest in computer science and physics and engineering, but I knew that math had to be part of it. And as I travers my undergraduate degree, I dabbled in all of those things. I picked up a second major in computer science, and then I dropped that, decided it wasn't for me, and I picked up a second major in physics, and I dropped that and decided it wasn't for me. And every time I just came back to math, and that's what I found my passion in. And by the end of my undergraduate degree, it wasn't so much that I was chasing a specific career, it was just that I knew I was not done learning math. I couldn't choose not to keep going.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:57]: So. So grad school was in some sense just the natural continuation of my learning process at that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]: So as you made that decision that you were going to keep learning, you wanted to keep going and continue your education, I'm sure you did some exploration, you did some research, you tried to figure out for yourself where was that next step. And ultimately, I know you made the choice to go to the University of Arizona to get a PhD in mathematics. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what made you decide first, a PhD in mathematics. But also, what did you go through? What were some of the things that you were looking for? What made you ultimately end up choosing the University of Arizona over the many other PhD programs that are out there across the United States and beyond?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:03:44]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to be fair, it was not an easy discussion. The choices when you're graduating from an undergraduate institution, especially, I think in a STEM field, are pretty overwhelming. There are industry options and commercial options to consider. Those were not my particular, you know, appeal. That was wasn't what I was interested in. I was interested in doing more academics. So then you have the question of do you go for a Master's degree or a PhD degree if you want to keep going, and in mathematics, that the choice is a little bit different than in some fields in that a master's degree is something you would pick if you knew what career you wanted to go into, and it had a master's degree requirement to it.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:04:25]: Whereas a PhD degree is the academic degree. If you want to go for the full doctorate, knowing that along the way, you essentially pick up a master's degree. So for me, the choice was clear because I knew that if I needed to bail out at some point along the way, decided that the PhD wasn't for me, then most PhD programs give you that that exit ramp to exit with just a Master's degree just is not meant as pejoratively there, just earlier than the PhD and then sort of every stage in your academic career from there on, you are constrained by availability. So I probably applied to a dozen grad schools for my PhD program. That's out of a choice of several hundred. So this was finding the programs that appealed to me both geographically and in terms of what expertise their faculty had. And cost was a factor, the likelihood that they would be able to subsidize part of my education. And in the end, the University of Arizona offered the best total package there.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:05:33]: I had never been to Arizona. I did not know that it would reach 110 degrees some summers. That was a climate based struggle for me during my time there. But in terms of the quality of the faculty and the aid package they were able to offer me, that just rose above the rest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: Now, as you make that transition and you go to graduate school, there is definitely a transition, because the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not going to be the same way that you're going to be taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations not only of your faculty, but also pressure that you put on yourself. Expectations that you have on yourself for the ultimate goal that you're working, working to attain. You found success, you ended up getting that PhD, getting that graduate degree. As you think back to that transition for yourself, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:06:37]: That's a great question. Let me start by a preliminary story, which is that in my role right now, I deal with a lot of the transition from high school students to undergraduate students, students telling them what to expect in their first year of undergrad. And what I tell them is that this will be a transition in the sense that there's not going to be people holding your hand through every step of this process. There's not going to be someone forcing you to come to class and telling you after you get done with your sports practice, you have to sit down for an hour and do your homework. Undergrad, you're much more responsible for setting your own schedule. That transition from high school to undergraduate is mirrored again in the transition from undergraduate to graduate. Here, not only do you have to come to class of your own volition and do your homework when you're supposed to, you need to also be in charge of managing your course selection and your advisor selection so that you're hitting your life goals. It is a matter of being much more self driven in terms of organization.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:07:36]: If you are not motivated to complete the degree, you're not going to do well in the degree. If you take the approach that all you have to do is sit through the classes and you'll come out the other side with a degree, you may get the degree, but you won't be on that success path for accelerating and whatever your post degree goals were. So I think to come back to your question of what measures to take to ensure success, it is about claiming that ownership of your journey. It is about making sure that at each step you're not blindly following what you think will be the easiest path to the degree, but rather deliberately choosing paths that might be harder if it means that at the end you'll be a better master of your subject.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: I mentioned at the beginning you're working with undergraduate students, but you're also working with graduate students now in a new data analytics program. And I guess I'm interested to dig a little deeper on what you've learned from students that you've been working with at the graduate level now versus the undergraduate level, either with what they've been challenged with or what you've had to work with them with as they've made that transition in and through graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:08:45]: Yeah, so our graduate program in data analytics is a very interesting case and perhaps a bit of a contrast to the story that I just told in that it is essentially always a terminal degree for students in that program, that it is very career focused, that students in that program tend to come out very well prepared for jobs and not typically with the intent of going on to get a PhD in data analytics. What I found from our students in our program is that they hit those hallmarks that I was just talking about. They come to this degree knowing what industry they want to go work in. And that's in part the design of the program. So just to give a very brief overview, the data analytics program is sort of half your courses skills based, getting computer science and math background to prepare you. Then the other half is discipline specific. If you want to go into healthcare admin, you take a bunch of courses in the College of Health Sciences learning about healthcare. If you want to go into business analytics, you take half your courses with the School of Management.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:09:44]: So students come into our program with a pretty good sense of which area of industry they want to go into. And then it is sort of my job as advisor to help match their career goals with the courses that they would take to get there. And sometimes, and I think the best students push back and say, actually in this field, which I might not know about personally, it's better to have this skill than this skill. So I was hoping I could take this class instead of this class, in which case that's absolutely fine. And we figured that out in the system.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]: You got your PhD in mathematics, you're still teaching in mathematics and working with mathematics students at the same time. You're now doing data analytics. Talk to me about that interplay and what made you maybe pivot a little bit or change a little bit in your direction and kind of the students that you're working with now at the graduate level?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:10:36]: Yeah, it was a career shift for me. It is happening in mathematics as a whole that we are finding increased application of mathematics in just about every field. Data analytics and data science being sort of the venue for using mathematics to solve problems everywhere. So I've already mentioned healthcare administration and business analytics. These are places where mathematics has not always had a strong foothold, but rather more business focused classes. And I think what we're seeing all across the globe is parts of industry recognizing that the management of data is increasingly important. And that is a nice segue to my math skills, because math is a critical component of data analytics, but it's not the only one. So what this program did that was somewhat revolutionary on campus was have these interdisciplinary courses that you could have a strong math core, but the degree is not about mathematics.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:11:30]: And so for me personally, it was a convenient place for me to use my mathematics skills, transition into a place where I could speak more intellectually, more intelligently about data analytics and data science. And also I've learned a lot about healthcare administration and business analytics in my role here, which is something I've never had training in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: Now, as you think back to your own graduate school journey, you think about the journeys of the graduate students that you're working with now. What are some tips that you might offer to other individuals thinking about graduate school, whether it be in mathematics, data analytics, or any other field that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:10]: Yeah, I will say my answer to this is to do the opposite of only going to your classes and sitting through lectures and doing homework. That is the most insular, I will say introverted approach, which is my default approach. So I sympathize with it. But the path to success is making contact with everyone you can. That means as you're thinking about your current degree and where you'd Go after, look at what industry is wanting. Look at the skills that your potential employers will want. Talk to your faculty. You'll get a sense of what they think it looks like to be successful in this field.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:43]: And maybe most importantly, talk to the people ahead of you in the program. If you're in a two year program, talk to the students who've already been there for a year. See what their struggles were, see what they wish they had known through their first year about navigating various systems and don't struggle in silence. Particularly in our degree and in our university as a whole, we have all sorts of support mechanisms. If you are struggling either academically or financially or personally or with a disability that you may have just noticed or went undiagnosed, do not keep that information to yourself. Find someone who can help. And here, and I think generally at most higher ed institutions, there are people there whose sole job is to help you with that. So be public, talk to people, figure out who can help and take advantage of those services.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]: Great advice and definitely something we've talked about on the show before is that advocacy that you have to have for yourself and you have to be willing to open up and ask for assistance. The piece that Cam mentioned about, even disability services, veterans services, you know, there are many different services that are on campus and sometimes you as a student may say to yourself that you don't want to say anything because you feel like you're going to be stigmatized. Don't do that. Step into it. Ask for the help up front. You might never use it, but at least you have the resource. You've made the contact. You're a known quantity and they are there if you need them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]: It doesn't mean that they're going to go out and out you to everybody on campus that they are going to do what you need to be able to be successful and they're not going to know how to help you if you don't advocate for yourself. So definitely make sure that you take advantage of that and ask for those things up front. And even as you're looking at schools, you can start asking those questions up front to be able to make sure that you have those things ready for yourself on day one or maybe it's your second term or beyond. It's when you need it. So great points. Thank you, Cam. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for allowing others a little glimpse into what you experience, but also what you're currently experiencing with other students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:03]: And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:15:05]: Thanks very much, Chris. I was glad to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Embarking on the journey to graduate school can be both exhilarating and overwhelming. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Juanita Tookes, Assistant Director for Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the University of Michigan Flint, to talk about her winding—and deeply personal—path through higher education. This insightful conversation is packed with valuable lessons and encouragement for anyone considering, or already pursuing, advanced degrees.

Embrace Your Own Timeline

One of the most powerful themes of this episode is the importance of honoring your unique path. Dr. Tookes shares candidly about taking breaks between each of her degrees—underscoring that there is no "one-size-fits-all" trajectory through academia. She explains how these pauses allowed her to gain hands-on experience (and even chase a dream of being on America's Next Top Model!) before returning to her studies with renewed clarity and purpose. Her story is a reminder that whether you go straight through or take time off, your educational journey is yours to define.

The Power of Real-World Experience

Dr. Tookes' journey highlights the value of real-world experience in shaping academic and career choices. Her early work in a child and family services nonprofit exposed her to social work, therapy, and the complexities of family systems—experiences that informed her eventual focus on counseling psychology. She encourages prospective students to seek out professional experiences, talk with people in the field, and use those insights to refine their goals.

Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

Transitioning to graduate school can trigger self-doubt, especially for those who see themselves as "nontraditional" students. Dr. Tookes bravely discusses her own struggles with imposter syndrome and negative thinking, and shares how reframing her mindset, celebrating small wins, and building a strong support network helped her persevere. Her honesty will resonate with anyone who has ever questioned their abilities or belonged in a program.

Seeking Guidance and Paying It Forward

Finally, Dr. Tookes emphasizes connecting with advisers, mentors, and peers—not only for academic support but also for personal encouragement. Her journey eventually led her to help other doctoral students as an academic adviser, filling a gap in support she'd wished for in her own experience.

If you've ever wondered what success in graduate school really looks like, this episode is for you. Listen to Dr. Juanita Tookes and gain practical wisdom, heartfelt encouragement, and a fresh perspective on your own educational path.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, and really excited to have you back again this week as we are working together, as you're going through this path, this journey that you're on to consider graduate school, go to graduate school, whatever part you are in, it is a journey. I say that every week, but it is so true because for every person, that path, that journey is going to look a little bit different. It's gonna feel a little bit different. You're gonna have to work through the things that that you're challenged with as you're thinking about this and figuring it out if this is the right path for you. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to demystify the graduate school process, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you in this journey. And I do that every week by introducing you to other people that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, that have learned some things along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: Maybe everything went perfectly well. I'm gonna guess to say it didn't all go perfectly, but that you learn along the way and you can learn from these individuals and put those tools in your toolbox to help you to maybe miss that stumbling block. But if not, start planning for it and prepare yourself so that as you hit that stumbling block, you have some tools, you have some resources to draw from that'll help you through that. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Doctor Juanita Tookes is with us, and Doctor Tookes is a the assistant director for the counseling and psychological services, or CAPS, program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate and master's degree both at Wayne State University and then went and got her doctorate degree at Oakland University. And we're gonna talk about that journey that she went on to learn a little bit more about that. I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Doctor Tuxt, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:17]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. It's always an honor when I'm invited to share my experience. And, of course, I know my experience is individual to me, but I hope something I say can be helpful to someone. So thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: Now, as I said, you did your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And at some point during that degree in psychology, you made a decision. You made a choice. You decided that you were going to continue on and get that graduate degree. Can you bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head? What made you decide that you wanted to do that? Because I know that there was a little bit of time between the bachelor's and the master's as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:03]: Yes. So this is such a long time ago. So when I graduated with my undergrad degree in 02/2008, I knew that I wanted to go higher in education. I knew that. I knew that I wanted to be a doctor since I was nine years old. Now at that age, I didn't know that there were different kinds of doctors. I just knew that I wanted to be one. But there is the preview of what you wanna do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:29]: There is the product of what actually comes out of it. But then there's this middle part called the process. So after I graduated with my undergrad degree, I did not go straight into graduate school. My brain was gone at the end of of my undergrad experience. It took me five years to complete that because I did not go to school in the summer. So it took me a little bit longer. And I just wanted to be without school for a little bit. Like, it was very intellectually challenging.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: It took a lot of my time. It was it was a lot. I was proud of it. I was happy that I did it. But I realized, unlike some of my peers who went straight into grad programs, I wanted to take a break. So what ended up happening is I found out through the psych department about, an internship. It was an internship in a child and family service organization in Detroit, and I applied for that and got it. And so what I did is I did my year internship there, and I got hired on as a full time employee.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:30]: And I was doing data entry and analysis for this organization. And I actually was there for a few years. And so the way that I look at it is because sometimes I've heard people think that you just have I've heard both sides of this. So people think that it's bad to take breaks. You need to just go straight through. And it's not bad. I think that whether you take breaks or you go straight through, just make sure that you're making the decision that's best for you. It's not about what other people think.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:58]: It's about what's best for you. It was best for me because I got to get some hands on real life experience in the area that I said that I wanted to work in. I knew I wanted to be in the helping professions. I knew that I wanted to study psychology. And so being at a child and family service nonprofit organization allowed me to interact a lot with social workers and therapists. This organization mainly worked with teenagers, so I was able to understand some things about the judicial system in relation to in relation to several things. So drug use, abuse and misuse, family systems. We were working with adjudicated youth, so youth that were who had committed some offenses, and they had to go to the court to get those offenses rectified.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:48]: Really learning a lot from the social workers and understanding that area, even though that's not what I was going for. Social work really helped enhance my knowledge about resources in the community that can help families, which were was inclusive of therapy. So my decision to go into grad school after my break was it was kind of like an internal it was an internal thing. I was traveling for two years. I was pursuing interests outside of academics. At this time, I was trying to be America's next top model at this time. So I was traveling and, like, pursuing modeling, trying to get assigned to an agency. I was trying to beg Tyra Banks to let me on her show.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:28]: But at the end of a two year period, my dreams had not manifested at that point. And I said, okay. We have to make a decision. Either you're going to continue to pursue this or you're going to get that grad school application done and submitted. And I went with the latter, completed my application to grad school, and then got admitted there. And that's how I started my journey in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: So in that learning that you went through, you as you said, you you worked with social workers, you saw psychologists, you worked with other individuals. And in those two years, you also had to do some other research. You had to determine what type of program you wanted to be in, what type of focus you wanted to focus on. And I know you ended up going back to Wayne State for a master of arts in counseling psychology. Talk to me about what made you, one, decide on specifically counseling psychology, where you could have done social work, you could have done some other type of psychology. What made you decide specifically on that and not other areas? And then conversely, what made you decide to go back to Wayne State versus another institution that might've had a similar program?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:38]: These are great questions. I'm very happy to share. And something you said before was very important. Remember when I said that I was nine and I knew that I wanted to be a doctor? Well, throughout this process, that idea got refined and specified more and more. So at the end of my undergraduate education, I realized that I really wanted to work with families. I really wanted, which is why I got that internship at the Child and Family Service Organization. As I went through that, I got fine tuned even more because then I had to think, you know, did did I want to work in the school setting? Did I want to work in the community setting? Did I want to work in a hospital? Like, what did I want to do? A lot of these things were still unclear. And this is something that my education was very, very and it was very helpful to me in helping me understand what specifically did I wanna do with a psych degree because there's so many things and so many areas that that you can work in and do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:32]: And so I decided to go back to Wayne State because, honestly, I was not familiar with a lot of college programs. So going through my high school curriculum and even in undergrad, I was not really exposed to a lot of college information. I knew about Wayne State because I grew up, was born, grew up in Detroit, so I knew about Wayne State. But luckily and I I'm not gonna say luckily because it was actually a blessing. I was actually accepted to be a part of a trio program, which was the McNair Scholars Program. That was an amazing program that I was in in undergrad, and this program helped students who wanted to pursue doctoral studies. Now at this point, I knew that I wanted to go into doctoral studies. I just didn't know how.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:18]: But this program, in my undergraduate experience, it helped expose me to more college information than I probably would have had if I was not in this program. So, we took college tours, you know, out of state. We were able to work closely with faculty members and do undergrad research, but we were able to, at this time, the GRE was a requirement. So, we got to have tutoring with GRE instructors. We had mentorship. So this really helped me define more and more, seeing other professionals and understanding what the grad application process was like. It really opened my mind to other possibilities of what I wanted to do with my degree. So once I started getting this information, I had already had my eyes focused on Wayne State even with the information that I had gained through the McNair program.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:07]: And so I had gotten in, and I decided to then say I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist. So that is the program that I applied to. The curriculum had changed once I got admitted. So it changed from marriage and family therapy to counseling counseling psychology. And I said, okay. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be the same. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the change that was outside of me that had to do with the university. But when I look back on it in in hindsight, I'm appreciative that I did get the counseling psych degree because I am a counselor now, but I started off as a psych major.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:42]: So I'm actually dually educated and dually trained in both of those areas. They are not the same, but they have a lot of similarities. So psych has a lot to do with assessment and, really looking into things from the medical model of how to look at a person's problems and physical manifestation of symptoms. Counseling is not like that. Counseling is more open and encompassing of the human and the human experience, and it really discourages looking at people at from a medical, you know, viewpoint. I think both perspectives are helpful, and the fact that I am trained in both helps me have a very enhanced, lens when I am assessing a person's mental and emotional challenges whereas I have to diagnose and things like that. So it's interesting because once I apply for my PhD, that is when I had more knowledge about other programs that I could possibly do my doctorate at. So I didn't really have it for undergrad as far as going to other institutions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:43]: I didn't really have it for my master's program because about time, I really understood that I could be at other places I was already admitted. So I stuck stuck with Wayne State, which was wonderful. It was a wonderful educational journey being at Wayne State. But what the grad program at Wayne State helped me to realize is that there was reasons why I didn't wanna do social work. I worked with a lot of social workers, and then I thought that the work was great, but I realized just the nuances in the helping professions. There's a difference between a psychologist, between a counselor, between a social worker. Again, a lot of similarities, but I didn't think that I wanted to work so much in the community And being that I call social workers community connectors because they know everything about what is in the community to help somebody overcome an obstacle or a problem. There are clinical tracks with social work to where they can do therapy as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:35]: But I just knew for me that I did not want to do the community kind of component of the helping professions. But it's interesting, though, because even in my learning experience, I did community mental health. So even though I wasn't a social worker, I still worked out in the community doing in home therapy. I did that for a couple of years working with a behavioral clinic. And so that further defined what did I wanna do and what did I not wanna do. And I realized that working in community mental health is was something that as somebody who is trying to be a psychologist, somebody who's trying to be a counselor, at that time, I was still going for my psych license. I didn't wanna do in home therapy. I also had an internship at Detroit Medical Center during my experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:22]: And even though I really liked working in the hospital, I wasn't quite sure that I wanted that wasn't a fit for me either. So even though I didn't know what I wanted to do, my experiences through grad school helped me understand what I did not want to do, which I think is equally as helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: That is helpful. And I think a lot of times that that's what you have to do is you have to whittle it down. And sometimes you don't know. And but luckily, as you go through a graduate program, that hopefully you've done your research going in and that it has at least the initial building blocks. But then as you go through even further, you are able to hyperfocus and and identify even more so what as a part of, let's say, counseling psychology, what do you wanna do in counseling psychology, and what don't you wanna do? Because there's a lot of facets within that as well. Now I mentioned that you ultimately ended up going and getting that doctor degree, became a doctor. You got your doctor of philosophy, your PhD in counseling education and supervision. And, again, with that degree, you went to Oakland University, and you chose to go in that direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: There were a couple of years between the master's and the doctorate, similar to what we saw from the undergrad to the master's. So talk to me about that and the same decision making process. What made you decide Oakland university? And, decision making process. What made you decide Oakland University and what made you decide that at that time when you started in 2016, what, why was that the right time?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:53]: As you pointed out, I have taken breaks in between every degree and something that I want everyone who's listening to this to understand is your path is your path. It doesn't have to look like anyone else's path. If you have to stop and take a break for whatever reason, either you have to or you want to and then jump back into it later, whether you go straight through, whether you change, you know, maybe you switch, you know, your focus, you know, your area of focus, your major, area of study, like, it's okay. Like, this is all a part of you discovering who you are and understanding what you wanna do in this world. So it's completely okay. I noticed that when I took breaks between my undergrad and grad degree, there was a lot of things that I just didn't understand and I didn't know. And and that's understandable. You know, you're growing, you're learning, you're being exposed to more.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:42]: As we know, with undergrad degree, it's pretty well encompassing. You're being, you know, well rounded and exposed to a whole bunch of different, you know, educational areas versus grad school where it's more honed in on a specific focus and area. Between my master's and doctorate degree, I definitely had a better understanding of what I wanted to do, but it wasn't complete yet. But it was definitely more specified than before. So what really encouraged me to apply for my doctorate was I wasn't happy with my with my job at the time. I was working in community mental health. This is when I was doing in home therapy. There at that time, there was not a lot of money in community mental health, so I wasn't getting paid a lot.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:24]: And, again, another something I wanna clarify is you don't want money to be the driving force as to why you are pursuing something. But two things can be true. Money is important. Money is important, but it shouldn't be the driving force or the primary reason why you go out for something. Developmentally disabled population, mainly individuals on the autism spectrum.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:58]: would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I would go into And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand the behaviors, of their loved one who was on the spectrum. And this ranged from individuals who were nonverbal to individuals who were high functioning. That was very challenging work. It was very challenging work It was very challenging work working with family systems, people not quite understanding the role of a therapist coming into your home. A lot of times I was looked at as maybe a babysitter where the caregivers did not want to be involved in the process. And so a part of this is educating the family or the caregiver on what the therapist's role is, what the goals are for their loved one, and developing a plan of treatment that can hopefully achieve some developmental goals for the person that I'm working with. But when you are working with someone who's nonverbal, a lot of times communication is through behavior.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:50]: And so I would work with work a lot with behavior modification, working very closely with behavior techs and, you know, things like that. And it was just challenging work. And I remember my clinical supervisor at the time because I had a temporary license. I had to get supervised. And I remember him coming in one day, and he looked just so carefree and happy. And I just asked him randomly. I said, what do you do? Why are you so happy? I don't know what kind of day I was having that day. But I just said, how can I get to a place where I'm happy like that when I come to work? And he said, well, maybe you should think about getting a doctorate.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:26]: You know, with a doctorate, you have very you have you have creative ability. You can do so many things. You can control kind of how you work and where do you wanna work and things like that. And, again, remember, I told you, like, when I was nine, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. But going through the process, it kind of took me away from that because the process will make you sometimes forget. Sometimes the process will make you discouraged. Sometimes other things will get in the way, and what you initially saw in that preview gets pushed back further and further. And so this question that I was asked brought what was in the back up to the front, and I was like, you know what? Yeah.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: You know, let me apply because I want to be in a position where I have less limitations. I wanna be in a position where I have more power to make changes and really do things. And so that's when the application process started in 2016, and I applied for more schools because I had more knowledge of more programs in other areas. I applied to about four schools that were out of the state, including Oakland University that was in state. And to my devastation, I got rejected out of them all. All of them. When the first rejection came in, I'm like, okay. You know, I got a couple more coming.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:43]: The second one came in. I'm like, okay. I got I got three more coming. But then when it got down to that last one, I'll never forget it because I asked my my friend at the time. I said, oh, I have the letter from I think it was from Oakland. And I said, turn on the camera. Turn on the camera. And I could already see through the paper once I opened the envelope that there were two sentences on the paper, and I knew what that could mean.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:07]: I regret to inform you. I I had already seen that sentence so many times that I already knew that's what it said. The camera was still rolling, and my friend captured my devastation when I read, I regret to inform you. I didn't even read the rest of the letter because I didn't have to. But I'm glad I recorded that moment because I applied again the next year and got in to Oakland. I had only applied to two schools, Western and Oakland. And I got into Oakland, and that's when my journey had started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:35]: And sometimes you do have to be persevered. You have to persevere through the points that sometimes are not always easy. You may not get in the first time that you apply, and that's okay. You have to keep pushing forward and try again. I I we've said this before, and I'll say it again. You definitely don't wanna put only your eggs in one basket because programs are only so large, and they can only accept so many students per year. So it is important to cast the net, a wide net, to allow for you to be able to be considered. You can still have your your top choices, and you can still pick and choose from that top net, that top list, but you don't want to only apply to that one that you really want to get into.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:23]: And then unfortunately, maybe not get in. And then as Doctor. Tuuk said, the devastation hits and you have to kind of pick yourself back up, push forward and try again. And that's okay. Now you did find success at all of these different levels. You pushed through, you got through, you got your different degrees. As you transition though into each of these different programs, there's different things that you have to do to be successful in the programs that you choose to go into. And the education is different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: The expectations are different. As you think back to the master's degree, to the doctor degree that you did go through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into these programs? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of the programs?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:17]: These are wonderful questions, I might say. First of all, I had to make sure that I checked my mindset because that was really the first obstacle that I was aware of every time I entered into a program. So when I entered into my graduate program, the first negative thought that I had was, wow. I've been out of school for a while. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. I haven't been in a classroom in a couple of years. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. This is the same thought that I had when I went into my doctorate program because I guess I would have been labeled, which I don't use this label with students, but nontraditional student.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:52]: So when I started my doctorate program, I was 31 years old. Everyone in my cohort, which was very small, it was only three three other people, they were in, like, their twenties, like, maybe earlier to mid twenties. And I'm like, wow. And they went everyone in my cohort went straight through. I was the only one who took a break and was working in the field. So I thought, wow. I must be at a disadvantage because they went straight through. You know, I they're book sharp, more book sharp than me.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:19]: You know, I'm probably not gonna keep up. And, again, I had that same thought of, I've been out of the classroom for a couple of years. I'm older, you know, than everyone else. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to really keep up with these individuals. So but what I what I did very quickly, more so quickly in my doctorate experience than my master's experience, is I said, okay, you're different. You know, what are the rewards of being different? Well, you worked out in the field, which means that all that's going to happen now is a label is going to be put on what you were already doing out in the field to help you understand exactly what you were doing. So you were using a particular approach, you know, of therapy when you were working at the behavioral clinic, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in community mental health. Now you're going to understand everything about that theoretic philosophy and approach, just more fine detail to what you were already doing.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:11]: You don't necessarily have to learn things from scratch because you were actually out here doing it. You may not have known exactly what to call it, or you may not have known that there was a theoretical orientation to the depths that you're learning it now. But this is actually what you were doing. So it's actually a benefit that you were out in the field. But there's again, there's also benefits for people who have went straight through. These individuals were more updated on research and other developments in the field. I wasn't really reading articles during my breaks, so I was a little bit behind. But that's why I also had to remember the competitiveness is over.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:48]: You got into the program. Now you wanna work with these individuals. So whatever you are a little deficient in, how about you work with your peers so that you can get up to speed on the latest research or conferences, things that you weren't doing, you know, when you were out in the field and vice versa? Because they could also learn from me because I've actually seen it. I've had clients before. I've worked in the community. I've worked in the office. So I can kind of tell them this is kind of what it looks like out here. And so I would say checking my mindset was number one because imposter syndrome, I I would put those two things together.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:22]: Oh goodness. People are gonna find out and we've talked about this before, doctor Lewis, about imposter syndrome and how all of these negative even though I got in the program, it's very competitive. And let me say too, when I said that I got did not get into Oakland, I automatically assumed it was because I wasn't smart enough. I didn't find out until after I was admitted that they were doing a curriculum change, and they didn't admit anyone the year that I applied. So but I was already telling myself, see, you're not smart enough to get a doctorate degree. That's why you didn't get in. And so imposter syndrome set in very heavily. And even after I got admitted, it tried to creep back in, and I had to I framed my acceptance letter, put it on my wall so that if imposter syndrome ever tried to creep up again, I could look at that letter and say, obviously, you're capable because you got in here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:10]: So I would say what kept me in is checking my mindset, but also continuing to reframe negative perspectives, being aware of when I'm engaging in negative thinking, and having something set up for myself like a visual reminder of my potential, that can be a direct counteragent to anything that is going to threaten or impede my academic success. I would also say knowing who your supports are. You can only support yourself so much when you are going through grad school, going for your master's, going for your doctorate. It is a rough road. If you think you can make it by yourself, I would say that is not true. Whether it be a professor who you bonded with or an advisor or a mentor or your peers or your family, your significant other, but even your kids. Like, you wanna make sure that you have sources of support so that when you can't generate that confidence within yourself, when you can't reframe your own perspective, you know a lifeline that you can reach out to to help you reframe it. I know my cousin was a lifeline.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:14]: When I told her that I was about to quit my doctorate program, she said, but you only have so much left. Like, you can't quit now. Like, you're almost done. If it wasn't for those little cheerleading moments and even those those moments of stern truth about you can't throw this all away. You've worked way too hard. I don't think I could have generated enough energy or enough support or enough cheerleading for myself to actually make it through. So those are and of course, there's other things too. But I think your mindset, how you continue to evaluate that mindset throughout the process, and knowing your supports on campus and in your personal life are just a few of the important things that can help keep you on the track of success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: And I appreciate you sharing that because I think I do agree with you on those things. Now, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, thinking about possibly taking that leap and going that next step, no matter if it was in psychology or in computer science or whatever area that they decided to go into, What are some other tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:24]: I would say one thing that I found pretty helpful I did not do this earlier in my educational journey, but I did do it more actually, I did it a little bit later. If there's an area that you wanna go into, see if you can find somebody who works in that area or somebody who knows somebody that works in that area that could give you a realistic perspective about what does it feel like to be in this job. As we talked about, the vision of what I was going to do with my doctorate became clearer and clearer as I went throughout this process. And when I was in my doctorate program, I thought for sure I was going to be a full time faculty. Just teaching about mental health and counselor education, like, educating counselors on how to be counselors. I thought that was what I was gonna do. I had an unexpected pivot where I saw a gap, and I wanted to see how I could fill it. And I knew I could use my degree to do it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:14]: So I actually pivoted from mental health to higher education, and I wanted to see how I could apply my counseling skill set, my psychology skill set into higher education, but not necessarily as a counselor. I didn't wanna do that, and I also not at that time. And I also didn't want to be a faculty. So I'm like, what am I gonna do in higher ed? I know I wanna go there, but what am I gonna do? So, see, there's still question marks. Am I and I'm all the way two and a half years in to a doc program, and things are still unclear. But I realized that advising was a resource that I did not really utilize throughout my educational journey, not in undergrad, not at the master's level, not even really at the doctorate level either. And I realized that there was a huge gap between doctoral students and advising support, specifically with doc students. And so I'm like, I want to see if I can change that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:12]: I wanna give doc students support academically because it's hard. And I was out here doing it by myself, and I'm like, I don't want any other doc student to feel like they're doing it by themselves. And so I'm like, what is a position where I can learn a lot about higher education and provide this academic support, academic advising. So the first thing that I did was I asked around. Because I went to Wayne State, I just looked at kind of like the advisers at Wayne State. I also had a good friend who was attending at Wayne State who knew someone who worked in advising. She connected me with him, and I talked with him about what is it like to be an advisor. We talked about the pay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:50]: We talked about the challenges. We talked about the wins. We talked about the trajectory. And so that gave me I talked to two people who worked in that field already, and I said, I wanna pursue this. I wanna go in and I wanna pursue this. So I applied for an advising position, and I got hired as an academic advisor for Michigan Osteopathic Medicine, where I specifically was working with doctorate students. At that point, I didn't care what the doctorate was in. Could have been in anything.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:18]: I just knew that I wanted to provide academic support to doc students, and I was able to do that for two and a half years, and it gave me exactly what I needed to further understand what the next step was. The next step after that, now that I had learned so much about higher education administration, policy, curriculum development, how to handle student issues. And, like, these are all things that I had to learn before the next step was revealed. And the next step was pursuing a leadership position in higher education, which led me to apply for the assistant director position of CAPS here at U of M Flint. So that's where my journey led me, and this is where I'm here today where I am today, rather.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:59]: Well, doctor Tookes, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your own journey, for sharing that with us today, and all the advice that you were able to offer in regards to the journey that you did go on, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:14]: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you thinking about graduate school, but worried about a few bumps in your academic or personal past? This week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, is one you can't afford to miss. Joined by legal experts Susan Stone and Kristina Supler, co-chairs of KJK's Student & Athlete Defense and Title IX Practice Group, the conversation centers around one of the most overlooked—but crucial—aspects of grad school admissions: how to handle disclosures of disciplinary or legal issues, and how to demonstrate personal growth.

Facing the Application Questions Head-On

Many prospective grad students feel anxiety when applications prompt disclosure of past academic or criminal incidents. Susan and Kristina stress the importance of honesty—reading each prompt carefully and responding truthfully, without oversharing. As Susan puts it, "Answer the prompt, but you don't have to gut yourself." If more information is needed, universities will ask. Ultimately, omitting required information can be far worse than taking ownership of a past mistake.

Lessons in Reflection and Preparedness

The episode delves into the power of self-reflection—not just when answering tough application questions, but also when making decisions about when and why to pursue graduate school. Both Susan and Kristina share insights from their own paths and from those of Susan's children, who benefited from working and reflecting before diving into advanced studies. That pause, they say, can help students make more thoughtful—and ultimately more successful—academic choices.

Law School, AI, and the Changing Landscape

The advent of AI tools has streamlined research and writing, but Susan and Kristina caution against letting technology replace critical thinking and big-picture analysis, especially for those considering law as a career. Law school, they emphasize, is about so much more than memorization: it's mental chess, requiring creativity, analysis, and adaptability.

Growth, Redemption, and Moving Forward

Perhaps the most compelling message of the episode is one of hope. A mistake in your past doesn't define you forever—what matters is how you move forward. Take steps to show growth connected to the issue, stay out of trouble, and be ready to talk authentically about your journey. Colleges and licensing boards are often open to stories of redemption and resilience.

If you're plotting your path to graduate school—or helping someone who is—this episode is packed with practical advice, honest reflections, and encouraging reminders that your journey, no matter how winding, can still lead to success.

Tune in to hear more insights from Susan Stone and Kristina Supler—and take your grad school journey with confidence!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back with us this week. And every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. No matter if you're going to business school, law school, med school, doesn't matter, you have made a decision that you want to go to graduate school and no matter where you're gonna be going, it's going to take time, it's gonna take effort, it's gonna take perseverance to get through. And I'm not saying that to scare you away. I'm telling you that because there are things that you can do right now and things that you can do as you go through graduate school to prepare you for that journey that you're going to be on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: And that's why this show exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some different resources and some some hints, some tips, some things to put in your own toolbox to help you on that journey. And today, we've got two great guests with us. Susan Stone and Christina Supler are with us, and they are the co chairs of KJK's Student and Athlete Defense Title IX Practice Group. This is a group that's dedicated to support students in crisis and addressing their legal needs. And this is a topic that we haven't really talked about. We haven't talked about as you're going into applying to graduate school, many times on the application, you're going to see questions that'll ask you if you've had any criminal charges that you've had in the past, and you have to disclose those things to be able to be able to apply. And sometimes that scares people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]: And we'll talk about some of that today. And we'll also talk about Susan and Christina's own journey in going to graduate school themselves. But I'm really excited to have Susan and Christina here. Susan, Christina, thanks so much for being here today.

Susan Stone [00:02:12]: Thanks for having us.

Kristina Supler [00:02:14]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. As I said, we haven't really talked about this topic before. But before we jump into that topic, on the legal side, I love getting to know both of you a little bit more in regards to the journey that you went on because both of you are lawyers and you went through graduate school. And I guess for you, as you were considering and thinking, take me back to that point where you said to yourself, I wanna go to graduate school. What was the reason and what made you to make that decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Kristina Supler [00:02:48]: Well, I am one of those bizarre, peculiar people who, as a child, knew exactly what I wanted to do, and then I actually did it. So your question, Chris, takes me back to my childhood. I think about being a student in fourth grade at Notre Dame Elementary School, and we had a career project. We had to do a report on what do you wanna be when you grow up. And I said, mom, dad, I wanna be a lawyer. And so my mother connected me with a real estate lawyer, which is kind of funny because, of course, I don't do anything in that realm. But did a project, did some interviews, learned more about what it is to be a lawyer. And fast forward, went through undergrad at Boston University where I obtained a degree in European history, highly useful, drawn my degree every day in my life, and then ultimately obtained my law degree from Cleveland Marshall College of Law.

Kristina Supler [00:03:39]: So I love what I do, and I'm happy to be here today to talk about what we do. What about you, Susan?

Susan Stone [00:03:44]: I'm gonna be a lawyer and answer but not answer, Chris, because I am attending my daughter's graduation from Wharton where she's getting her MBA, and I also have a son at MBA school at Cornell. I am reflecting because it's graduation time on the choices they made versus the choice I made and what advice I would give to people. I also have the same story as Christina, so I won't bore you with that. Always wanted to be a lawyer, went straight through. But I see through my two adult children that both of them took time after undergrad and worked and reflected before they went into graduate school, and I really think that was the smarter decision. It is every parent's hope that we raise kids smarter than ourselves, and I achieved that goal because while I love being a lawyer, I love it because I created a niche that worked for me. But if given a couple years to muse and think, maybe I would have considered other options. I was just so strong in the narrative that I should be a lawyer.

Susan Stone [00:04:54]: Whereas I see that my children took more time, worked a little, asked a lot more questions, and took a different path than what they thought. So my daughter, who's getting her MBA in health care consulting, originally wanted to be a doctor. My son, who graduated with a degree in finance, mused for a couple years while he worked, do I want to be a lawyer? Do I want to be a doctor? Do I want to be a candlestick maker? He's going into investment banking. So I recommend you do a little work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Great points. And definitely, I've seen students that do that. And it's you do have to do your research, you do have to do that self reflection to be able to get there. And speaking of self reflection, both of you chose different law schools in in the paths that you chose. And there are many different law schools that are out there. Now the interesting part is that you both were in Ohio, not too far from each other, and you went to law schools in that same region. But I guess talk to me about that decision making process for yourselves and how you ultimately came to the decision of the law schools that you chose to attend.

Kristina Supler [00:06:05]: Susan, why don't you go ahead?

Susan Stone [00:06:07]: Well, I was engaged and I knew that we were coming back to Cleveland. Case Western gave me a scholarship, and it was a wonderful education. And that really is not that exciting of a story. I wish I had more. I think that, again, with a little reflection, a little maturity, maybe I would have explored differently. Again, I look at my married daughter graduating from graduate school. She got married and then made the decision to go to a different city for her MBA program from her husband and the time flew, that wasn't in my world view decades ago.

Kristina Supler [00:06:48]: And, Chris, my situation is not unlike what Susan described. I was away living my best life in Boston, but I came back for my hometown, honey, my now husband. And and really the choice was simple. It came down to scholarship dollars. You know, I was putting myself through law school. And when you look at through through the lens of, you know, who's giving me the best scholarship award, that it was an easy choice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: And I've said this before, but law school is expensive. I I worked at a law school for ten years. I know how much debt that people can come out. So you do have to look at all those factors as you're making your decisions because in the end you have to pay that back. So it is important to understand that. Now both of you were successful in going through law school. You got through, you got through the bar, you did all of those things. As you transitioned into law school and went through law school, there are definite things that you have to learn along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Going to law school is very different than any other type of education than you would have had in the past and you probably will ever see in the future. But that in mind, what did you have to do as you transitioned in and through law school that helped set you up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your law school experience?

Susan Stone [00:08:08]: I'm gonna praise my law partner, and I'm gonna guess because I didn't go to law school with her. We are different generations that went to different law schools, but Christina Soupler is an outstanding writer. I read her writing every day. So first and foremost, Christina, wouldn't you agree? And the reason I'm not having you answer it because I know you are too far far too humble to tell the truth, but it's writing skills.

Kristina Supler [00:08:34]: Certainly. Being a lawyer, writing is is essential. To build off of Susan's point, back it up even a little bit further than that. And this is believe it or not, Chris, it's conversations Susan and I are having with colleagues and peers on on a daily basis. The big a what's the big a? Analysis, analysis, analysis. So I I came into law school thinking, oh, I have such good study skills. I know how to read and memorize and I'm gonna show up for my exam having put in countless hours. I'm gonna be ready to nail it.

Kristina Supler [00:09:07]: Oh, wait. That's only part of being a lawyer. The other part and arguably the more essential part of being a talented lawyer is being able to engage in critical analysis. So wrestling with facts, running those facts through different lenses, figuring out how can I twist and turn these facts to obtain the goal that my client is seeking? And that is no matter what your other talents and skills are, a lawyer, successful lawyer, must be

Susan Stone [00:09:37]: able to engage in critical analysis. I wanna bootstrap what Christina said because you've kinda touched on a little nerve.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: I was

Kristina Supler [00:09:44]: gonna say, did I touch a nerve, Susan?

Susan Stone [00:09:46]: Well, you did touch a nerve and it's a nerve we share, so I'm not gonna disagree. The blessing of AI is that everything comes at your fingertips, and legal research is so different today. You literally put in what you want and the computer spits it out. The problem is it short circuits the ability to really think through a problem and be creative. And what I don't see anymore in the talent that's coming in is what I call big picture thinking and out of the box thinking. And that only comes with sitting in a space of discomfort, reading different ideas, maybe those that are not even perfectly matched to your query that you put in a computer, and tapping into creativity. I see a lot of written work where I ask a question, it spits it out, and that they think is the answer, and they can't play mental chess. Being a lawyer is just mental chess, and I don't know how we fix that with the technology that's emerging.

Susan Stone [00:10:59]: We're hearing that people can use AI to write their briefs and do their legal research, but what AI can't do is set up a case, tell you your next move. And I'm at a loss, Chris. Breach. Double breach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:13]: It's definitely hard. Yeah. It's definitely hard. I you know, more and more, we're seeing students that use AI for different parts of their application, and it becomes easier and easier to see when you're getting applications from certain countries and letters look the same or statements look the same. And but I definitely hear you. I've worked I've worked with plenty of lawyers and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how much analysis went into the courses that they went through. And that was before AI in the version that it currently exists. So I can only imagine the challenges that law schools are having to deal with right now.

Kristina Supler [00:11:52]: Chris, your comments making me think about our own practice and the work Susan and I do daily with our students. We represent a lot of students in academic integrity cases. And in this day and age, let's face it, most of the quote unquote cheating cases have some tie in to the use or improper use of AI. And it's really remarkable you sharing how from your perspective as as a director, you can sort of spot the essays or the writing. And what we are seeing when we're working with students as well is an ability or perhaps inability to answer questions about the steps along the way to reach the answer. And I will tell you, it is quite glaring at times. Not always, but at times. I mean, Susan, do you recall that one situation we had where there was an issue of AI hallucinations?

Susan Stone [00:12:47]: I mean, it's remarkable what what you see. I feel as if AI has dulled instinct.

Kristina Supler [00:12:55]: Oh, interesting thought. Yeah. That's something to wrestle with because on the one hand, we wanna I believe we should embrace technology, but of course, responsible use of technology.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Now you just tired us talking about some of the different people that you work with in the practice that you both have and supporting students as they're going through this process. And I talked about the fact that your practice group handles complex cases involving allegations. This could be sexual assault. It could be academic integrity. It could be there's lots of different aspects to what your practice is working toward. I guess from a high level, there are going to be individuals that when they're looking at graduate school that have had these, we'll call them dings on their record, right? Some things happened in the past and some are going to be more severe than others, but there's always that question that is going to come up on a application that is going to ask them to disclose. And I know that in the minds of many students, some students may say, you know, should I even put this down? Has this been expunged? Has it been long enough that I don't have to say anything about this anymore? What do you say to those students? Well, you

Susan Stone [00:14:09]: have to look at the prompt. If the prompt asks for it, you have to give the tell the truth. It's that simple.

Kristina Supler [00:14:14]: I was gonna say I wish we had some secret sauce here and we we'd shared trade secrets, Chris, but it really is. Regularly, we say to clients over and over, read the question. Read it very carefully. Read the question two, three, four plus times. Every school can have different there's the common app, but then schools have their own questions, essays, so on and so forth. Read the question very carefully.

Susan Stone [00:14:39]: Less is more. You have to be truthful, but you don't have to gut yourself either. Read the question. Answer the question. I call it a sandwich approach. Tell them what happened. Tell them the consequence. Tell them how you grew.

Susan Stone [00:14:55]: Be done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:55]: Now and I will say that there are times where a university may ask you for more information. So from my perspective, from the admission side of things, there are times where if a student has a felony on their record and they were put on probation or they went to jail and they had a parole period, I would probably ask that person to show that they are off parole and to get those court records to be able to show us that that is the case. So you have to watch your email as well and make sure that if you're being asked for something that you do what you can to provide that.

Kristina Supler [00:15:40]: That reminds me of a situation we had where there was a debate about what was or wasn't requested by the school, but the issue involved college credits from a different institution and the student didn't ultimately complete the semester. And so it was an issue of is something was that brief period of time at a university subject to disclosure? And, you know, Chris, I'll be curious as to your thoughts. I mean, do you think it's it's in a student's best interest to air on the side of disclosure?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:11]: I tend to say yes, but it also comes down to how they ask the question, just like you were saying, because if they ask for all transcripts from all institutions, now if you never matriculated to an incident, you were accepted, maybe you went but then dropped out in the first week, there's really not gonna be a record of you at that institution. There's not really gonna be a transcript of you at that institution. Now, depends on how the university is asking and whether they're asking for all matriculations or if they're asking for or all enrollments, or all completed terms, you know, there's lots of different words that could mean something just a little bit different. So you can see how this can become a little bit more complex than just saying, is it or isn't it?

Susan Stone [00:17:01]: And don't overcomplicate it. Read the question. If they ask where you enrolled, tell them where you were enrolled. I should let people know there is a national clearing house. The minute you do enroll, there is documentation. All schools have access to that clearing house. Just read the question.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]: I would say that you're gonna get in more trouble if you fail to disclose something and the school believes that you're being dishonest on your application and they identify that. Then if you disclose more and the school says, well, we really didn't need that. So I would on the size side of disclosure in that regard. Now I know you work with students that are looking at lots of different types of programs. Are you seeing any differences in regards to disclosure of either academic or criminal type of offenses when it comes to, let's say, regulated, more regulated, academic areas versus maybe not as regulated or areas that lead to certification or licensure versus non licensure that that you'd want to touch on?

Susan Stone [00:18:08]: Certain offenses you can seal and certain offenses you can seal and expunge, and there is a difference. But certain professions, like the financial industry for one and law, I'm told, can pierce that. So again, not to be a broken record. Make sure you read the application and don't rely on the fact that your record's been sealed because it still may show up on a report.

Kristina Supler [00:18:35]: In the academic realm or in the educational realm, what we've been told and what we've seen in our work, in the Title nine realm, Title nine cases, is that colleges and universities have become a little more thoughtful, I'll say, in asking the question and that previously the questions regarding essentially student discipline, right, student title nine would fall under that heading broadly speaking. The questions used to be, have you ever been sanctioned or disciplined? And now more recently, some schools, not all, are asking more carefully worded questions along the lines of, have you ever been part of a process or named in a complaint? And so that's something that we've seen change in the title nine realm more recently, I would say.

Susan Stone [00:19:22]: And it's infuriating to me. I am so outraged by that because we know that there are false accusations out there. We also know that there are accusations that can't be proven or a student might go through a process and be found not responsible. We also know that there are conflicts between students that can be resolved through mediation or another alternative process, And the fact that a student can be merely accused and have a blemish, well, what do I always say, Christina? That's outrageous. Susan, your comments about being found not responsible, you reminded me. Why don't you tell the story of what ROTC We represent a lot of students who, have military commissions in ROTC in various arms of the of our armed forces. And if a student goes through a Title nine process, even if the case is dismissed or found in their favor, military has the right to look at whether that officer or cadet behaved in a way becoming of a representative of our armed forces and can put that cadet through a separate proceeding, which it's not for me to question our military, but I have helped students navigate that process and advise them on how to explain what had happened. But, boy, getting accused is a very serious matter, and you can't always control it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:56]: Now I mentioned earlier that some students do get those dings on their record. Some are call them larger dings than others and and maybe they've had some other issues that they have to deal with. What are some misconceptions that students or or even parents often have about how long a disciplinary, we'll call it a ding, will follow them in their academic journey?

Susan Stone [00:21:22]: You have to read the school's policy. Every school has a different policy. Some say seven years, and then the records are destroyed. I would argue, Christina, chime in, that if it's a public institution, it might always remain available pursuant to a sunshine law. What do you think, Christina?

Kristina Supler [00:21:42]: Public institutions, wonderful places, but a thorn in our side from the perspective of records retention and public records requests, FOIA requests, people call it different things. If a student at a public institution, if records regarding that student are requested, you know, maybe pursuant to a subpoena or or something else, a records request. Broadly speaking, the student will get some sort of notice that the student's records are being inquired about. But boy, these public institutions and public records requests and what they can can and can't provide. And if there's litigation settlement agreements, you just, you just never know what is going to come to the light of day, what information is going to surface. Sometimes it's helpful and then sometimes it can be a student's undoing. You just never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:35]: Now for students that have made mistakes in their past, what are some practical steps that they can take to demonstrate for a school in your perspectives personal growth and readiness for

Susan Stone [00:22:48]: First of all, don't get in trouble again. I know you're laughing and smiling. You're laughing and smiling, but it happens. You're laughing because the truth can be funny. Don't get in trouble again. Be good. Mind your Ps and Qs and then reflect on what actually led to the problem and take related steps to show growth. So for example, if you were caught cheating, I'm not so sure counseling and substance abuse would make sense.

Susan Stone [00:23:19]: Right? It's gotta be related. It's gotta show that you reflected what you did.

Kristina Supler [00:23:24]: But conversely, I mean, many title nine cases, not all, but it's it's not uncommon for us to have clients come to us. And the title nine complaints, you know, at the root of the issue was students engaging in drug or alcohol use. And so if a student was disciplined through a student conduct process or a title nine process and the behavior in question, whether it's, again, some sort of sexual misconduct or let's just say something more innocuous like campus vandalism, but the root of that behavior was being drunk. Then that's a student who may be in an essay and looking to the future could reflect and demonstrate. As Susan said, first and foremost, stay out of trouble, but also has the student taken any steps to perhaps address substance abuse issues?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:11]: Now, if a student feels that they've been unfairly denied admissions or had their acceptance rescinded due to some past misconduct, What legal resources or forms of advocacy should they consider?

Susan Stone [00:24:27]: Unless they were denied admission, that's a difficult hurdle. You'd have to prove it was for impermissible grounds, illegal grounds. If you were denied admission because of your race or your ethnic background or a disability, that is an area where we could explore legal recourse. However, if someone denies you admission based on what they perceive as a character flaw, I don't see a remedy for that. Find a different school.

Kristina Supler [00:24:59]: And I'll share a story, Chris. We have had many calls from families. One in particular comes to mind though, where a high school student was accepted to a very prestigious university. And over the summer between high school graduation and rolling onto campus in the fall, there were allegations that got out and spread like wildfire on social media. And they were just that. They were allegations. They weren't even proven true. However, it was reported to the incoming university, and that university revoked the acceptance just just on social media.

Kristina Supler [00:25:34]: And again, there was no basis in truth. And so, you know, to Susan's point, those are the cases that are really tough for us. They're they're heartbreaking because a student works so hard. But unless they're, you know, the student is, for example,

Susan Stone [00:25:49]: in a protected class or there's some illegal means, you know, character flaw, shortcoming perceived by a university to revoke, tougher legal battle. Never give up. Just because you're gonna have a different path than you originally thought doesn't mean that the crooked road or the road that you didn't think you were going to take, not to get all Robert Frost on you, but I thought I'd make a little literary reference since we're talking about academia, Doesn't mean that the path that you're gonna go on isn't the better path. Sometimes the best things in life that have happened to me personally were born out of situations that I thought were the worst and were bad. And so what I'd like to say to people listening, think of something that bad happens as being bitter. There is no bad. There's just bitter. It may taste bad temporarily, but if you keep your head down and you keep pushing forward, you will find a path that's great and meaningful.

Susan Stone [00:26:52]: It may not be the path that you originally intended, but that's life. The curves and the twists and the beautiful turns we take.

Kristina Supler [00:27:01]: Susan, that was beautiful. I agree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:03]: You know, sometimes I see students going down the path of writing things like character statements or getting letters of recommendation or providing legal documentation. How effective have you found in your practice with working with clients? How effective are these in overcoming past issues during the admission process?

Kristina Supler [00:27:22]: Well, Chris, I will say this. Lawyers provide great value to clients. However, I have come to learn over the years. Colleges and universities, guess what? They don't really want to hear from me. They don't really care what I have to say. They might care about what Susan has to say a little more, but they don't even really care about that. Colleges and universities wanna hear, and they also don't really care about the neighbor who says that young Susan Stone is so polite and promising, and they don't care that I was a Girl Scout. I I really wasn't just saying that.

Kristina Supler [00:27:55]: But, you know, I think that really the heart of the issue in in my experience at any rates, in in my interface with on these types of issues is that, you know, we'll just say outside parties, broadly speaking, are looking for authenticity, sincerity, and growth. You know, they don't want some perfectly crafted one page letter that was clearly written by a lawyer and that's navigating around and among bad facts. They wanna hear from the student directly. Show us what you got. Show us why you shouldn't be defined forever by a mistake in the past.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:31]: And I know that you both were talking about character. And in some professions, there are character and fitness standards that have to be upheld. The legal profession is one good example of that. Medical profession has their own aspect of it as well, that, you know, very highly regulated fields, as we were talking about earlier. How do these past infractions, in your opinions, affect a student's long term ability to be able to get through that vetting that happens at the end of an educational experience as they are preparing for state bar exams, state licensing, or other credentialing that is required?

Susan Stone [00:29:12]: That's a great question. It depends what the blemishes about. I actually, many, many years ago, represented a young woman before the Ohio Supreme Court character and fitness committee. They were tough, and it was concerning lying. So if it's something like integrity, lying, cheating, stealing, you got problems. If it's substance abuse, those, organizations, those governing bodies might make you take a lap, say, show some more growth, come back next year. But I think, ultimately, there's an understanding of disabilities and substance abuse. Wouldn't you agree, Christina?

Kristina Supler [00:29:52]: I would. And and it's funny that you asked that question, Chris, because just this morning, I'm working on a criminal matter and had to delve into information on the Ohio Medical Board's website and a list of disqualifying criminal offenses. And side note, I'm not giving out or providing any legal advice here. But it was interesting that at first at first pass, some criminal convictions can be an impediment to licensing. But it was interesting that it was clear that it it it it's not absolute. So, again, I think it just we've come full circle, this idea of demonstrating growth, coming from a place of authenticity, earnestness to show, you know, that that that mistake in the past doesn't have to forever preclude and limit future opportunities. But again, you know, read the fine prints, work with experienced professionals who know how to navigate those proceedings because there certainly are going to be bumps and hurdles, but it it's I think like Susan said earlier, and and she's right. Never give up.

Kristina Supler [00:30:57]: To is human.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:59]: You know, and the one other thing that I'll throw out there, and this is especially true for students going into law school. One thing that became very interesting as I was working in law schools in the past is that character and fitness boards had started to review or some character fitness boards had started to also look at social media accounts of individual individuals as they were going up for review. And I can't say that I would completely agree or disagree with that in looking at the character fitness, but just know that that in some jurisdictions, some states that that may be the case. And if that is the case, you need to watch what you're putting on your social media accounts.

Kristina Supler [00:31:44]: The social media audit is is just here to stay now, whether it's for academic purposes or employment. I mean, we have to be careful about what we post online.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:53]: Well, Susan, Christina, I just wanna say thank you. This has been very insightful. And definitely, as I said, it's not been a topic that we've talked about in the past, but I think it's a really important topic because things happen, as you said, and you have to be able to pick yourself up. You have to be able to keep moving forward and you have to be able to know, can the plan still work or do you have to pivot? And if you have to pivot, what are some options? And it's good to understand that going in and not to be not feel like you're being pushed down and saying, no, you can't do it because you have to answer these questions. So it's important that we've had this conversation. I really appreciate your time and you sharing all of this today, and I truly wish you both the best.

Susan Stone [00:32:39]: Thank you. It's been a pleasure being on this podcast. And I I will say, Chris, we've been invited to speak on a host of different channels and shows on this topic. So it must be of particular interest to parents and students and the general public, but I'm not just saying this to Flint or you. You ask the best questions.

Kristina Supler [00:32:59]: It's really been a pleasure talking with you today, Chris. Thanks for having us.

Susan Stone [00:33:03]: Bye bye.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:04]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].