Victors in Grad School

Are you thinking about graduate school, wondering how others have navigated the challenges and triumphs of advanced education? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone considering the journey. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melodee Hills, a driven lifelong learner who shares her honest, inspiring path from undergraduate degrees through an MBA and now towards a Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) at the University of Michigan-Flint.

From the outset, Melodee Hills opens up about what first inspired her to continue beyond her bachelor's degree. She shares how she found a passion for learning while balancing a full-time job and recognized the importance of momentum—"school isn't getting any cheaper, and I'm not getting any younger," she notes. Her story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the best time to push ahead is when you're already in motion.

The conversation dives deep into the "why" behind going to graduate school—a recurring theme in the episode. Melodee Hills encourages listeners to identify their core reason for considering graduate studies, emphasizing that a clear sense of purpose will carry you through the tough times. "Once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window," she shares, recounting how filtering out "noise" from naysayers and self-doubt allowed her to stay committed, even when balancing demanding work periods and academic deadlines.

Another key takeaway from the episode is the importance of adaptability and self-reflection. Melodee Hills offers practical strategies for managing the ever-shifting landscape of graduate school, highlighting the need for boundaries, constant adjustment, and supportive communication with loved ones and mentors. She also touches on battling imposter syndrome—a challenge many graduate students face—and how building relationships with both peers and professors helped her find her footing in a new academic environment.

This episode isn't just about hardship; it's about growth and transformation. Melodee Hills shares how her approach to problem-solving has evolved—from impulsive reactions to thoughtful research and big-picture thinking.

Whether you're contemplating graduate studies or are already on the path, the wisdom and encouragement you'll hear in this episode will help you clarify your goals, anticipate challenges, and find actionable advice for success. Don't miss the full conversation—listen to the latest "Victors in Grad School" episode and get inspired to find your own path forward!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey because every individual that is thinking about going to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, maybe you're already through partially and seen that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And at each point in that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: That's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to find some tips, some strategies, some. Some hints from people that have gone forth before you, that might be in graduate school now, that may have gone to graduate school in the past and can share some of what they learned along the way with you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you. And today we've got another great guest. Melody Hills is with us. And Melody is a member of the. And Melody is a DBA student at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: And she has already gone through a graduate degree once. Now she's doing it again for a different degree. And we're going to talk about that journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree, going to a master's, now going for a doctorate degree and talking to you about some of the things that she's learned along the way. Melody, thanks so much for being here today.

Melodee Hills [00:01:40]: I am happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here and to talk about your journey and what I really want to do. First and foremost, that I want to take you back in time. So I know you did your bachelor's degree at Ashford University, and at some point, at some point during that time when you were at Ashford or maybe sometime after that, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue that education and go from getting that Bachelor of Arts in Organizational Management and continuing that to get a Master of Science in Business Administration. So talk to me about that and bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the thing to do at that point in your life?

Melodee Hills [00:02:21]: So back when I did my bachelor's degree. I was really trying to finish because I had been in school for over a decade at that point, and I needed to get to that finish line to finish my bachelor's. But then while I was doing my undergrad, I said, I actually enjoy this. And at the time I was working, I was a staff accountant, and school isn't getting any cheaper and I'm not getting any younger. So I. And I was actually enjoying the process. I love learning. So while I was in that mode of going to school and working full time, I said, I'm just gonna keep going before so I don't lose this momentum.

Melodee Hills [00:02:54]: So after I finished my bachelor's degree, it took me, I think it was that summer. It was just a few months later, it was less than a year later that I signed up and continued on with my master's degree just to really keep it going.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: So I know that back a few years back, you made another decision. You made a decision that you are going to continue that education and can go back into the learning mode to be able to get that terminal doctorate degree in business, the doctorate of Business Administration, or the DBA degree. And not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to jump back into education after they have a master's degree. I'm sure that you could have stayed with the master's degree and been plenty fine with your work and continued on. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide to shake it up and go back to graduate school to work on that doctorate degree for yourself?

Melodee Hills [00:03:43]: Sure. Having a doctorate degree has always just been a goal. It's always been a personal goal. And honestly, when I finished my master's degree, I said, I am never doing this again. I am never going back to school. Academically, I'm done. But then, you know, things change. Life changes and priorities shift.

Melodee Hills [00:03:58]: And I got to a point in my career where I needed to continue my own growth. I was stalled in my career, and I wanted to pivot into teaching. I wanted to pivot into getting higher into leadership, and the stars aligned, and everything just happened to line up. And I started doing my research, and I found this program, and it worked. You know, I talked to my husband about it. I talked to those that I love and are close to me, and they said, yes, this is perfect for you. You're this lifelong learner. Do it.

Melodee Hills [00:04:25]: So through my soul searching and a lot of phone calls and just thinking about it, I said, yes, this is the right thing to do for me and my life. Right now to advance myself personally advance myself career wise. It just aligned.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that inaugural cohort of the program when it first started. And there are many DBA programs across the nation and you're actually located on the other side of the country from where this program is located. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and that search process for yourself and what made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Melodee Hills [00:05:03]: Yes, I did research a bunch, a bunch of schools, all reputable, great reputations, legacy. So Michigan, of course, its reputation, its legacy. It has a strong alumni association. It's been around forever, it's not going anywhere. And full transparency. The other ones were required an in person residency either two, three, four times a year, which was fine, you know, to fly to wherever that campus may be. But because the Michigan program was 100% online, that really worked for me as much as I travel personally as for working full time and just the other things I do, the 100% online was really what made me say yes, this is, this is the, this will be the best decision for me right now and in my current lifestyle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:47]: Now, when you transition into graduate degrees, there is definitely transitions. The way in which you're educated is different, the way in which the expectations that faculty have of you are different. And it's different at every level, in every type of degree. So talk to me about those transitions that you went through and what you had to do not only at the beginning when you were transitioning in to your different degrees at the different levels, but what did you have to do to be able to maintain the success that you found as you were transitioning in, to transition through that program and to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degree.

Melodee Hills [00:06:23]: It's constant reflection to see what works. So what works for me may not work for the next person or I may talk to one of my classmates or someone and what works for them won't work for me. And what worked for me last month may not work for me this month, you know, so it's just a constant looking and seeing where I am now. Someone just said to me recently, be where your feet are. And that to me just really resonated to just be where my feet are and okay, this is. I need to focus more. I have a paper, I have a test, I have an exam. Whatever it may be, I need to focus more this week than I did last week and just always be willing and flexible and fluid to be able to make the Adjustments needed and not be so stuck on an expected outcome because anything can happen.

Melodee Hills [00:07:04]: So really just being open and fluid and being willing to adapt now, also.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:09]: When you go into a graduate degree, and I'm kind of lumping both of your degrees together, but I know that it's different at the master's and at the doctor. And as you move into a graduate degree, there are mindset shifts that you have to go through personally that help you to be able to find success. And you mentioned kind of the reflection, but I'm sure that there's some other mindset shifts that you had to go through to be able to get yourself in a place to get yourself in a place that would allow for you to be successful in the graduate program in general. So what mindset shifts did you feel like you had to go through at the master's level, at the doctorate level now that helped you succeed?

Melodee Hills [00:07:46]: Mind shift. So I'll speak at the doctorate level. I, I didn't know that imposter syndrome existed until I got into this doctorate program. So that whole thing of, should I be here? Am I worthy to be here? You know, looking at certain people that have. Are in the program and just comparing myself to them, listening to other people tell me, you don't need that. Why are you doing this? And I really had to take a step back and eliminate that noise, because that's all it was. It's just noise in my head and find my own why. What's my why of what I'm doing this.

Melodee Hills [00:08:21]: And once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window. And it was a shift of this is why I'm doing this. This is what's important to me and why I'm. I'm going to finish. And so I would just say filtering out and silencing the noise and the naysayers and all of, all of that other stuff going on to understand why I was doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: For me, yeah, that's important because you do have to always have in your mind's eye the end result, the goal at the end of the tunnel. I always talk about the light at the end of the tunnel because a lot of times when you're going through a graduate program, you do have to look for that light because sometimes it gets challenging. There will be challenges that you have to overcome when you're going through degrees. Talk to me about challenges for yourself. And maybe there's. Maybe there was one, maybe there was two. Are there any examples that you could share with me of challenges that you had to overcome personally. And what did you have to do to do that?

Melodee Hills [00:09:15]: Working in accounting? I was a corporate accounting manager and we have month end close, quarter end close, year end close. And they don't care that I have a paper due for this course. They don't care that I have, you know, what I have going on. So trying to balance the time commitment that I needed for work and making sure I did a good job at work, as well as the time commitment that I needed for this program in particular. Because it's a lot, you know, there's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing, it's a lot of research. So it did require a lot of time. So I would say that would be that just to understand, understand that part of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: You know, one other thing that comes to mind, and I talk to students about this all the time, is as you enter different degrees and you insert yourself into that education, sometimes that imposter syndrome creeps in and self doubt in regard to how you feel as a student and whether you feel that you're good enough or you should be there, that you can do what you're trying to do. Talk to me about imposter syndrome and how that impacted you and what you had to do to overcome that.

Melodee Hills [00:10:17]: For this program in particular, since we were the inaugural program, I didn't have anyone to talk to for an example or to say, hey, what is this? Like, I jumped into this. I finished my master's degree. Gosh, it seems like a lifetime ago. So I'm jumping back into academics, I'm jumping into a doctorate program. I'm learning what my cohorts do for a living. And I'm like, my goodness, how did I even make the cut? You know, so it was like all of those types of things. And then once I got in, I just immersed myself. I became an ambassador for the program, I became a mentor for the program.

Melodee Hills [00:10:49]: I started just learning my cohorts and just talking to them. I learned that I know things that they didn't, you know, so we just kind of worked with each other on each other's strengths to help each other out. So it just. In the beginning, it was so scary because I just didn't know what to expect. But then as I kind of got my footing, it took about a semester, I mean, to be honest, to really get my footing and understand what I was doing and how I was doing it and understand the professors and how everything worked. But that went away eventually. But yes, it was definitely a thing of why, how why am I here? How am I here? But I got my footing. It's okay now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]: Now, you've already mentioned the fact that in going into graduate school, especially when you're working and you have family and friends and, and you're wearing lots of different hats, there is this balance that you have to find. So tell me about how you found balance in balancing school, work, family and other commitments that you might have had thus far during graduate school.

Melodee Hills [00:11:44]: I just had to make sure I set the time and boundaries. Boundaries are so important with this. Like I had to set boundaries with my home. My husband and I agreed we were going to move my office space into the spare bedroom so that I could shut the door and so that I could have that time to really just focus. And that's just so important. So I would really just say communication. I have this paper due and I only have X amount of time before my next seminar to go over the proposal. So huge boundaries and communication and then execution.

Melodee Hills [00:12:17]: Because it's nothing if you say, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and then you don't do it. So, you know, it's discipline. It's so much involved, especially working 100% remote and being home and you're on your own time and making sure you hit your own deadlines.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: Now, you also mentioned the fact that when you went into this program, there was no one else ahead of you. So you didn't always have that support network and those people to draw from. And it is so important to build relationships, build relationships with others in the program, but also faculty and peers. So talk to me about how you built those relations, those relationships, even though there wasn't a class ahead of you and how did you build those relationships with faculty or other students and how that was impactful for you as a student.

Melodee Hills [00:12:59]: So our cohort, again, we were all kind of figuring this out together. So we would talk to each other. We have a group text or WhatsApp group that we communicate through. But I. Another thing that resonated with me at my job was trust but verify. So as the communication will be going on in that group, that's great. But I just got to the point where I said, I'm going to actually talk to the professors about this. I want to make sure that I am clear on this expectation from the person who actually is giving the assignment or given the instruction.

Melodee Hills [00:13:32]: So I would set up those one on one calls, I would reach out, I would email. Is this right? Is this what the expectation is? Am I doing this the right way. And I just started building that relationship and that openness and you know, certain professors I got closer to than others where I felt more comfortable to reach out to. Dr. White is amazing, Dr. Kelly is amazing, Dr. Asta is amazing. So there's this certain people that I started reaching out to more than others.

Melodee Hills [00:13:55]: But once I got comfortable with that, because again, coming from corporate and then jumping into academic, these folks that have all these papers written and all these letters behind their name, you know, it was a little intimidating at first, but everyone was so open and so wanting to help and so accommodating and so responsive that it just became easy. And I just became really comfortable with not only bouncing things off my cohorts, but also just checking in with the professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: Now you've gone through an mba, you're almost through your dba. As you think about graduate school and what you've learned along the way, how it's challenged you and pushed you in different directions, how would you say that graduate school has changed the way that you think, work or approach problems?

Melodee Hills [00:14:33]: I went from being very impulsive to saying, wait a minute, let me think about that. And actually looking for things and finding information on my own and just being a more rounded thinker, broad just looking at things big picture. They say that 10,000 foot view, which I hate incorporate, but you know, I mean, but that's really the thing, you know, instead of just seeing things in this small lens, it makes me take a step back and say, wait, there's more to this. And what is that? I'm always looking stuff up now, you know, if I see something like what does this mean? Oh no, what is that? Oh, you know, so. So yeah, that's definitely been the change from being, I don't want to call it small minded. I'll just say again that small lens to big picture and trying to get the full perspective and the full picture of things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:20]: As you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's an mba, a DBA or something completely different. And as you think back to your own graduate school education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Melodee Hills [00:15:35]: Like I said earlier, find your why. Why do you want to do this? And is this something that you can finish? Because one, it's a huge financial comm to start something and bail or quit or whatever may happen a year or a year and a half because you still have this bill, right? So one, figure out your why and make sure that it's something you can see through to the end. Talk to those that you love and trust and those that will give you honestly, both sides of it. Okay. Well, for Melody, you love to do xyz. Is this something that you can continue during ABC and just think about those things, positive and negative? It can't always be good. There's gonna be some challenges. And then again, just.

Melodee Hills [00:16:14]: It's an investment. It is for time and money. Just talk to your job. If you're working full time, if you're not, if you're already a student, just understand the full picture of it. To set yourself up for success, to make sure that this is something that you can take and find your support group so that you can make it to that finish line.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: Well, Melody, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. I know it's not over. You still got a little bit of time left before you walk across that stage and get hooded for your doctorate degree. And I'm really excited to be able to see you as you finish this journey for yourself and see where you go from there. But I really appreciate you sharing your story today and I wish you all the best.

Melodee Hills [00:16:56]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: The university of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that are that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

Graduate school is often described as a journey—one full of unique challenges, opportunities, and moments of growth. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Abigail Weycker, a double master's degree student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it takes to thrive as a grad student.

Unlocking Opportunities: Dual Degrees and Joint Programs

One of the main themes Abigail discusses is the value of joint degree programs, such as the university's Four-Plus-One track. Many don't realize these programs exist until someone points them out, as was Abigail's experience. By strategically double-counting certain courses, she's able to fast-track her journey, save both time and money, and ultimately earn an MBA alongside an MS in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics (MSLOD).

Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of investigating whether your institution offers such programs, as they can offer incredible opportunities for growth and advancement.

Transition and Mindset: Embracing the Graduate Challenge

Transitioning from undergraduate coursework to graduate-level expectations requires more than just academic skill—it's about shifting your mindset. Abigail shares how meticulous planning and using a color-coded planner has been crucial for her success, along with meeting consistently with academic advisors. Their guidance ensures she's on track, understands course sequencing, and discovers new opportunities—like adding her second master's—she might otherwise have missed.

Making the leap from "just another day of school" to treating graduate work as an investment in her future, Abigail highlights how "taking it day by day, or even minute by minute" can help manage stress and keep you moving forward.

Building Relationships and Community

Another powerful theme from this episode is the importance of building relationships—both with faculty and fellow students. Abigail explains that being proactive about connecting with professors and staff transformed her experience. It not only made learning easier but also enriched her network, opening doors she never expected.

Advice for Future Grad Students

"Dip your toe in and try," Abigail encourages future grad students. Go at your own pace, build connections, and remember: your journey is unique. The support you cultivate, both academically and personally, can make all the difference.

For anyone considering graduate school—or currently navigating it—this episode is packed with practical wisdom, honest reflections, and encouragement. Listen to the full conversation to get inspired and equipped for your own grad school journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Abigail Weycker [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that. That you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are looking at graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: Maybe you are. You've already applied to graduate school. Maybe you're already in graduate school. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do today, right now that will help you to be able to find success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to learn from other people, other people that are currently going through the graduate school, that have gone through graduate school. Maybe they've been out of graduate school for some time, but they can still provide you with some of those building blocks, some of those things that they learned along the way that can help you as well. Today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: Abigail Weycker is with us. And Abigail is a student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She is actually in two different master's degrees at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: And she started the first master's degree while she was an undergraduate student. So we're going to be talking to her about the journey that she has been on toward where she's going, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to you today. Abigail, thanks so much for being here.

Abigail Weycker [00:01:33]: Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: It is my pleasure. And I guess one of the things that I want to do first and foremost is I want to go back in time. I know that you were a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in time, you had something in your head that said to you, I want to go further. I want to go beyond the bachelor's degree, and I want to start my graduate degree while I'm an undergraduate student. So bring me back to that point and what was going through your head?

Abigail Weycker [00:02:02]: Yeah, so I honestly didn't know about the joint four plus one program until I want to say, the end of my sophomore year, beginning of my junior year. And I believe it was one of our marketing assistants at the time, Audrey Banks, she had just made a flyer for it, like one of those big, gigantic flyers. You know what I'm talking about? And I was like, what is that? So I went and I talked to Tamika and Rachel, and I talked to them about what the four plus one program entails. And they told me about how you can essentially double count a few undergrad classes that are also master's level classes, and they would count towards both your undergraduate degree and your master's degree, so you can do them simultaneously. And I was like, okay, so essentially you can knock out a year worth of master's classes while also going to get your undergrad degree. So then that's why it's called four plus one. So then you only have one year of your solely, just your master's afterwards.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]: So full stop there, everyone. I'm going to talk a little bit about this because at the institution that you may be at, if you're an undergraduate student right now, one of the things to look at is, does your institution have a joint degree program? If they have a joint degree program in a program that you're interested in, it might be something to look into. Every university that has these type of programs set them up in different ways. And the way in which they are set up here at the University of Michigan Flint does allow for students to double count, meaning that you are taking graduate courses as an undergraduate student, and those credits transfer back down to complete bachelor's degree requirements, while at the same time working toward requirements for the master's degree as well. So that being said, you can, as Abigail just said, save some time, save some money potentially, and continue working toward your goal. Now, as I said, not every university has these, so it's not going to work with everybody. But it can't hurt to look into it further, especially if there are areas that you are interested in that have these type of programs that are available and you want to start early if you can identify what's there. Because if you can start taking them in your junior year, maybe or your senior year, you want to prepare yourself for that so that you are talking to academic advisors and preparing ahead of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]: Now, Abigail, you decided to do a joint degree program for the mba. Talk to me about that. Why the mba, and why did you decide that that was the right graduate program for you?

Abigail Weycker [00:04:34]: Yeah, so I started with the MBA because it just was the logical choice for me to go from Bachelor's to Master's of Business Administration. It just sounded right. And then again, I was talking with Tamika Shepherd. She's a graduate advisor at U of M Flint, and she had mentioned that going for my mslod because my focus for my master's in the MBA is HR and Marketing. And MSLOD is more hr, solely focused. So she mentioned that doing the MSLOD would only be four more classes. So it would only take me one extra semester because I'm taking three classes at a time, which you don't have to do. That's just how I'm doing it.

Abigail Weycker [00:05:15]: So I'm going full time. So she said it would only be four extra classes. So realistically that's only one extra semester for me. Technically I'm graduating twice. I'm graduating with my MBA in April of 26 and then my MSLOD in December of 26. So I was already going summer for one extra class for my MBA anyways. So I just added two MSLOD and then went forward in the fall.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:38]: And I'm going to break down these acronyms. Mslod, Master of Science in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics. Now, what Abigail was just talking about here at the University of Michigan, Flint, we call a dual degree. Many universities, dual degrees are possible. That basically just means that you are joining two different graduate degrees together. And usually if you are combining different degrees together, there's some type of an overlap between those degrees like Abigail just said. And they don't have to always be in the same academic area. So for example, you could be studying nursing and also get an MBA because you might want to do executive leadership in nursing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:19]: So there are ways in which which you can partner different degrees together. Every institution is different and the number of credits that you can double count will be different because of that. But it's again a way for you to be able to maximize the time that you are in graduate school and be able to really focus in on those areas that you truly have an interest in as you move forward. Now, Abigail, as you were transitioning into your first graduate degree, there are definite transitions. You're going from the way in which you're educated as an undergraduate student. You were still an undergraduate student while you're taking graduate courses. And there are different expectations, there's different expectations of graduate students. Faculty are going to treat you differently, expect different things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:06]: And you have to figure that out as you are going along. Talk to me about that transition for yourself because you have found success in this journey thus far. So as you started your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Abigail Weycker [00:07:26]: Yeah, it kind of sounds cliche, but the biggest thing for me is keeping a planner. I'll mark down, I'll go through the syllabus or syllabi, the first day of the new semester, and write down all of the due dates in the planner in different colors. And then that way I can mark them off when the assignment is done. And then mentally that just makes me feel a lot better and makes me not stress out about missing something as much. So with grad school, you're going to get a lot more, I wouldn't say a lot more assignments, but you're gonna get a lot more in depth assignments. So there's gonna be more parts, there's gonna be more to it, there's gonna be longer essays. So it's gonna take more time than maybe just your typical practice of maybe doing it the day before that. It's not something that you can do in grad school anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:10]: And that's okay. I mean it just, it's, it's all about car. That's why I use the planner, because it's all about carving out the time that I need to successful assignments on time and to the best of my ability. And then another big strength or recommendation that I have is consistently meeting with your advisor. I know everybody tells you that and everybody tells, oh, me with your advisor regularly, blah, blah, blah. And it kind of seems a pain in the butt, but it really, really, really does help because if you end up trying to advise yourself, you could screw yourself into another semester or preparing money for a class you didn't need. And you won't know that until you get evaluated by an advisor and they're like, actually, I don't know about that. And you're like, oh, okay.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:56]: And you won't know your options until you talk with an advisor either. Like, I wouldn't have known about the mslod, the joint MBA MSLOD program if Tameka hadn't mentioned it to me. So it's important to make sure that you establish that connection and keep that connection and meet with them at least once a semester.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:13]: Completely agree with you. Too often I've seen students do what you just said, which was self advisement. Especially if they're in a program that might not be cohort based and they are just looking at a catalog and saying, oh, that sounds kind of interesting. What if I took this course? Or if they see, oh, I have to take this course and maybe I'll take this or maybe I'll take this next term, not realizing that a course is only offered once every other semester. So sitting down with an advisor is definitely an important piece because you can then look at that schedule and Say, well, what makes the most sense? And you might learn something, something about a joint degree or a dual degree program. You might learn about a specific class that you really have to take this term, unless you want to have a delay.

Abigail Weycker [00:09:59]: That was a big one for me, was figuring out certain classes only are offered certain semesters. And you wouldn't know that unless you know the back end or you've experienced it in the past and know to look for it. It is embedded within our websites and places. But unless you have any idea about that being an option or an issue, potential issue, you don't know to look.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]: So talking about some of the transitions you went through as you move into graduate school, there are mindset shifts that you do have to go through as well. Talk to me about what mindset shifts did you have to make to succeed in graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:10:35]: I think for me really is it made me realize that I'm an adult now. These are big steps to go forward, and these are the step that are going to ensure a good future for me and a good future career for me. I think it's pretty typical now that a lot of companies want you to have your master's, especially in certain topics like education likes it and business likes it. I mean, it's not guaranteed and it's not required, obviously, but some companies like it. And so realizing that and putting myself in those shoes makes me realize that getting these two masters is going to make me more attractive to certain companies and I could be more likely to get my dream job quicker than someone else who might not have those experiences. And it's taken a lot for me to shift my thinking like that because I was like, oh, it's just another day of school. Oh, it's just another day of school. Okay, now I've got my bachelor's degree.

Abigail Weycker [00:11:29]: Okay, now I'm working on my master's. Okay, now the next step after that is a job. So you basically switch from a child or kid mindset to, okay, every day I go to school now. And then you're like, oh, I'm an adult. This is for something. This means something.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:46]: So as you think about the classes that you've taken, the other students that you've interacted with, you started graduate school young. There are many people in your program that probably stepped out and came back. Maybe they were working and going to school at the same time. So they're bringing different perspectives into the classroom. Talk to me about that experience for you as someone that that was young in your graduate courses and what that experience was like for you.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:12]: Yeah. So I considered doing that. And it's totally okay if you do. There's no judgment, no hate, no anything. But I just know myself and I know that for the last 13 years before I started college, all I've known was school. And then the four years of my undergrad, all I've known was school. And then I started working. So I was worried that if I stopped, had a family, had kids, got a full time job, that I would be like, oh, I'm done with school and try to come back and be like, I don't, I don't know how to get back in the groove anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:46]: So that, that's just how I knew personally myself. And I was like, right now is the perfect time to do it. Especially with the credits double counting, I was at an advantage. So I'm like, I need to take this advantage now. I definitely do notice that I am the youngest in most of my classes, if not all of them. It's a little bit intimidating because I feel like I don't have the workforce and day to day experience that a lot of them have. But it's nice because they end up mentoring me in a way, so they end up giving me perspectives that I may have never thought about if I wasn't in this class right now. I may have them if I went and got a career right after my bachelor's and then came back, but I didn't and I went straight into master's.

Abigail Weycker [00:13:27]: So I'm straight in the learning portion, not in the real world experience portion. So having a class with those that went right into the real world world experience portion helps us to mesh together the ideas of both.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: The relationships that you build between as a undergraduate student, between faculty and student is a little bit different. The relationships that typically you're building in graduate school with faculty as well. So talk to me about how you built those relationships, how it might have been different between being an undergraduate student and a graduate student for yourself in the different degrees that you're working on.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:03]: But.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:04]: And what did you do to be able to build those strong relationships?

Abigail Weycker [00:14:08]: The same way it's important to reach out to your advisors and connect with them. It's important to reach out to your faculty and your staff and reach out to them and keep a connection up with them. Especially being at a smaller university, at being at U of M Flint, that was one of my big draws to come here is because I was looking at Ann Arbor, I was looking at Michigan State, and those are classes of upwards of maybe 100 200, 300 people, depending. So you're just going to be another head in the classroom, which that's fine if that. But for me, I. Even in high school and stuff like that, I love the connection between me and my teachers first, not even just a first name basis, but just knowing more about them and knowing their life and then finding a connection. And then we'd end up having a conversation about something I probably would have never known about them. So that's a big thing, is reaching out and finding those connections and feeling comfortable to talk to your professors.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:59]: Because if I don't understand something, I don't want to feel scared to go to them. I don't want to feel scared to try and learn a concept and say, hey, I might need another Zoom meeting about this. Hey, I might need another one on one session about this. I don't, I don't understand. So it's about being not afraid to approach them and build it further than just school. Because. Because if you build it further than just school, then you're building your network eventually for your future. And then the change from undergrad to grad.

Abigail Weycker [00:15:27]: Again, this is probably going to sound cliche, but I feel like in a graduate setting, you're looked at as more of an adult, you're looked at as more of an equal. And they treat you like that. Like there are professors on a graduate level that will end up, not that there's not any on the undergrad level, but they'll like, joke with you and tell them about the night before and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's great because then you build that, that connection deeper than just a classroom level. And then you feel more comfortable talking to them about certain things personally or professionally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:57]: You also, as you've gone through undergrad into grad, you've worked on campus and you've been a part of student staff and have continued to do that in your gradu graduate degree as well. And I have told students as they go into graduate school, if they're not working full time, they should get involved on campus. They should find ways to be able to connect with people in a different way. Talk to me about your experience as a student employee on campus and what that's been like for you in balancing not only the work that you're doing in class, but also outside of class.

Abigail Weycker [00:16:31]: So I will say, before I even started college, I looked into, um, Flint and reached out and figured out what organizations on campus there were that I could join. And granted, I joined a lot and then didn't Follow through with them because it got overwhelming. But there were a handful that I stuck with, such as the Society of Human Resources Management. I joined U of M Flint's women's club soccer team. I'm involved with a couple other things, but working on campus. I started in 2022 in the summer at School of Management as an office assistant. And it's part time, but then it's. It's also creating those deeper relationships with the staff and faculty that I wouldn't have.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:07]: They know me on a first name basis. They know about my boyfriend, they know about my family. I know about their kids, I know about their hobbies. And you wouldn't know that if you didn't go and create those relationships. And it's nice because having an on campus job, they are almost required to. But they're nice enough to work around your school schedule. So if you're feeling overwhelmed or I need to study for this exam, hey, can I take this day off or take a couple hours to go study? And nine times out of 10, they're totally okay with it. And they totally understand because they were in your shoes one day too.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:45]: And they understand that to be a student worker, you have to be a student first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:50]: Now, as you look back at your experiences going through graduate school thus far, and you think back to starting in graduate school even before you started in graduate school. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:18:06]: So I live by this quote now. I heard it, I want to say, last year sometime from a professor, actually. He came into the office one day and I was pulling my hair out. I was so stressed and it wasn't even work. It was just like these assignments are just piling up and everything was going crazy. And he looked at me and he was like, abby, take it day by day. If it doesn't work day by day, take it hour by hour. If it doesn't work hour by hour, take it minute by minute.

Abigail Weycker [00:18:32]: If you have to break it down like that, get one thing done, mark that off in your head and be like, whew, I did that. Okay, onto the next thing. If you break it down more simply like that, then it's less stressful in your head and you have more of a mindset of, I can do this. I might be overwhelmed right now, but when I get this done, it's gonna feel so good and I'm gonna be so successful, it's all worth it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:55]: I love that quote. I think that's something that anybody going through graduate school should be living by, because it can get stressful. You can feel like an imposter sometimes. There, there are definite times where you are going to be challenged in many different ways. So it is important for you to be able to look at things in small chunks, take advantage of that and get the things done you can. And just like Abby said, take it minute by minute, second by second, whatever it takes to be able to get to that finish line. Because there will be times where you're continuing to look for that light and you're keeping to walking. You're walking, you're running, you're, you know, you're doing whatever you can to be able to get to that end point, whatever that end point is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: If it's your first masters, your second master's, whatever it may be, you've got to keep going. And I keep thinking of the old adage from Finding Nemo, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. It's the same type of mantra, but you've got to keep moving forward. So, Abby, as you think about others, other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it's going for an mba, whether it's going for whatever degree, and you think back to your own education thus far and what you've learned, what are some tips that you might want to offer other individuals that you might not have shared thus far that would help students find success sooner?

Abigail Weycker [00:20:20]: Really, I would say just dip your toe in and try and if it doesn't feel successful, feel good, feel like you don't continue. If it feels amazing and you're like, wow, I can do this, I think I can see myself continuing, keep doing it class by class. And like I said, hour by hour, day by day, like you can take it as slow or as fast paced as you want to. It's. Nobody's telling you your timetable. It's completely up to what is best for you and suits you to be successful both in life and in school. And I, I wish that I was less hard on myself in that way. And even now I still am.

Abigail Weycker [00:20:57]: But have fun with it. I mean, obviously take it seriously, grades and all that, it's important. But enjoy your time in the school, enjoy the classes, enjoy the people you meet. Make those connections. They could be lifelong connections. I met my best friend in grad school. I might not have done that. I met professors that I know are recommendations for life.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:16]: I know that I will have connection with them for from now until forever. You don't know until you try and put that foot forward. Dip that toe in. Give it a shot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]: Great thoughts and I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Abby. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this today and for all the work that you're doing to engage with other students on campus. Abby also sits on our advisory board here at the University of Michigan Flint for our Office of Graduate Programs. So I'm always excited to be able to get her perspectives on things. So thank you for that as well. Again, getting engaged, getting involved in different ways. But Abby, I just want to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]: Thank you for being here today, for sharing your perspectives, and I wish you all the best.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:58]: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is more than just the next step in your academic journey—it's a transformational experience that brings both challenges and opportunities. In this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Joslynn Walsh, a first-year student in the Physician Assistant (PA) program at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her real-world insights on what it truly takes to thrive as a graduate student.

From the outset, Joslynn Walsh recounts her unique introduction to the PA profession during her online freshman year, amid the restrictions of the Covid-19 pandemic. She highlights how proactive research, virtual events, and community panels shaped her decision to pursue a career as a Physician Assistant. Joslynn's experience resonates with anyone who's had to adapt and find clarity in uncertain times.

A key theme running through Joslynn's story is the value of community. She chose UM-Flint's PA program not just for its convenient location, but for its deep connections with the Flint community. Opportunities for service learning—like volunteering at local organizations and engaging with outreach programs—set this program apart, allowing students to make a real difference while preparing for their careers. As Joslynn notes, "It's important to be present in your community, not just talk the talk, but walk the walk."

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school isn't without its challenges. Joslynn openly discusses her own hurdles, from buying a home to adjusting to her husband's military commitments—all while starting a rigorous academic program. Her biggest takeaway? The importance of flexibility. Graduate school, especially in the medical field, demands adaptability, perseverance, and a willingness to embrace the unexpected.

Impostor syndrome is another reality addressed on the podcast. For Joslynn, early experiences in simulated patient encounters and urgent care settings helped her overcome self-doubt and step confidently into her role. She emphasizes that such experiences help students get comfortable with the uncomfortable—an essential skill for any future medical provider.

Finally, Joslynn offers sage advice to those considering graduate school: do your research, connect with professionals in your field, and strive for a healthy work-life balance. Above all, she reminds us that success isn't just about academic achievement—it's about caring for yourself and your community.

Want to hear more about the journey, the challenges, and the victories? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and be inspired to make your own mark in graduate school and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk, to be able to help you in finding that success that you want and in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey because each person goes through a different process that you have to go through to be able to figure out for yourself what do you have to do to be able to not only apply, get accepted, but then once you transition into a graduate school, what do you have to do to be successful? And every week, I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective on that and what they've learned from along the way. And today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Joslynn Walsh is with us today. And Joslynn is a first year student in the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I am really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and what she's learned thus far. And she's currently in the program, so she's still learning and it's definitely not something that is done. She's going to continue to learn.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:24]: So.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: So I'm really excited to introduce her to you and to have her on the show today. Joslynn, thanks so much for being here.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:31]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be able to chat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well, to be able to learn from your experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in you getting that undergraduate degree, you made a choice, you made a choice that you wanted to continue your education to become a physician assistant. Take me back to that point where you decided that that was the route and what was going through your head.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:00]: Well, it kind of was an idea that started maybe freshman year. My freshman year looked a little different than most because it was online due to Covid restrictions. So I would say that my freshman year was kind of unique and was very situational, obviously like one of a kind scenario. And unfortunately it kind of closed off a lot of options as far as being able to investigate campuses. So I just think I had to do a lot of research on my own and that included shadowing and trying to do internships, but those weren't available due to Covid. So there was a online event. It was not really a job career event, but I think it was geared more towards like pre med students. And we had a few guest speakers and community members come in to speak on health careers and health professions.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:57]: So there was nursing from local facilities. I think there was a few that came from Hurley and McLaren and they came to talk on what the nursing model is. And then there was a couple of nurse practitioners who had taken the extra step and we got to hear from both of those professions. And then there was an MD who I believe specialized in nephrology. So got to hear his experience going all the way through a doctoral program. And then there was a PA and it was really cool because it was like a panel. You got to hear the difference between each of the. And when somebody is making a decision on what to be, it's not only hard to come to the decision to pick medical, but what in the medical career.

Joslynn Walsh [00:03:43]: So that educational panel was really where it all started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your physician assistant program. And there's a number of different physician assistant programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what was going through your head as you were going through that and what made you ultimately decide to attend U of M Flint?

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:09]: Probably the community. I do think the Flint community has a lot to offer. It's not just location and it's convenient access to where I live, but it's more than that. It's the farmer's market, it's the hospitals, it's the community service with like so many outreaches nearby. There's the Michigan Food bank. So close, I mean, you name it. There's so many facilities that are in need. And that's something that's always really appealed to me.

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:37]: And our program specifically is fortunate enough to participate with a lot of these outreach facilities where our students are enrolled in giving back to the community. And not a lot of PA programs offer such an opportunity for service learning. Maybe they'll do like a cohort day. Well, they'll go do like a field trip and go spend XYZ hours sorting food together. And it's made two hour event. Our program does. So our students are participants in multiple programs in the community all year. And I think that's something that's important to me having been a volunteer advocate throughout high school and undergrad and continuing that community participant.

Joslynn Walsh [00:05:20]: And I think it's so important as future medical providers to understand the community you're working in, understand your population, not just like their needs, but also to be present in the community yourself. So it's one thing to talk, but it's another thing to walk the walk. And I think as future medical providers, whether it's nursing or all the way up to an md, like, it's important to be present in your community. And I think our program does a fantastic job of reinforcing that and actually showing the effort that comes from that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that every student that goes through a process of getting accepted into a graduate program, as you enter into that graduate program, there is a process of transition, because the way that you're educated as an undergraduate student is very different than the way that you're being educated as a graduate student. So as you think about this transition that you've gone through over the last year, in stepping into the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint, you found success and you've been able to be successful. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on thus far?

Joslynn Walsh [00:06:32]: I definitely think it's hard to think about your successes without thinking about your trials and tribulations. So my program started January 2025. So not a quite full year yet, but almost there. And January. It was an interesting start date because I feel like most programs start in the fall and it's kind of all coordinated at the same time. But having that winter start date was already a little odd. And then I bought a house in January that was quite difficult. My timing was not my best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:00]: I' but that's just how things go. I do think that it was a learning curve with the adjustment of responsibility. My husband serves in the Army National Guard, and he was currently on his officer training status during that time. So I didn't have my support system. So having the newfound, I guess, learning curve of graduate school life and making that adjustment, buying a house, not having that support system, he was floundering in January. It was hard to transition for me, particularly my experience, not to say that that's the experience my colleagues share. I do think it encouraged me to be flexible, which is so important as you navigate that transition time between undergraduate learning is being flexible. And I think that has been my biggest takeaway in not being able to control everything and being able to take that step back.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:53]: And which honestly saying that out loud because Is that not the perfect estimate in the medical field? Being able to be flexible when a thrown at you? It's unusual to being able to provide good patient care, being able to make decisions on the fly. I do think that it opened my eyes. I am ready for this. While it didn't feel like that maybe occurring during the experience, looking back on it, I'm very proud of myself for being able to persevere through those hard circumstances. But flexibility is just crucial in graduate school and making that transition as you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]: Entered into a program that is rigorous. Because I know that the physicians assistant program is definitely rigorous. It challenges you in many different ways. And I know that a lot of students that would go through that type of situation may feel a sense of imposter syndrome or self doubt in regard to am I ready for this? Am I good enough? Am I good enough to be here? Talk to me about that. And did you have any point in the last year where that has crept in and how did you handle it?

Joslynn Walsh [00:08:57]: So our program, I do think it's a standard that most doctoral programs and PA programs will conduct some, some type of standardized patient simulation, like a standardized patient experience where you have actors who are presented with some type of case and you act out your role, whether that is a PA or a nurse or whatever that position might look like. So I do think that that's pretty standard across all programs. So having that opportunity to it be no risk, you're it's an actor, it is a pretend situation. Getting that opportunity to make those mistakes with no risk is honestly the big opportunity to be able to watch those errors back and see how you would do it differently. But not only that, to actually put the white coat on and to be the one knocking on the door. And it's something so simple that you don't think about whether your experience prior to this was being a medical assistant, whether it was scribing in a doctor's office. We're not the ones coming in all dressed up, knocking on the door, making those introductions, those formal introductions, I'm here to see you today. And those minute things that you don't think about going into school definitely can invoke the imposter syndrome, I think.

Joslynn Walsh [00:10:12]: And we get to practice those scenarios, we get to in real time pretend to be the provider. And right now I need to stop using the word pretend because in five short months that I'm going into clinical rotations and I might be the only provider they're seeing in real time. So I practice this almost every time I go to the simulated patient experience, but also our program on something I'm very passionate about and very excited that our PA program does is Clinical Emergence. And our students are participants in Urgent Cares and around the community, the Flint community, a few other local areas. And these Urgent Cares have preceptors who allow us to come in as students and to see patients under the supervision of the urgent care provider. So as a student, having not gone to clinicals yet, I think it's once or twice a month we have the opportunity to go to Urgent Cares and to see patients on our own and then go back in the room with our preceptor. And having those experiences, experiences early on, I think gives me that edge and being able to get over that imposter syndrome a little early on before I get to clinicals. And it's the real deal.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:21]: I continuously, every time I go, I'm wearing my white coat, I'm knocking on the door, I'm introducing myself as a student and that has helped me tremendously assume my position and assume my role and kind of get over that fear. But I think with any medical provider, it's always going to be there in the back of your head. It's always going to be there saying, oh man, this is an emergency situation, I need to go get help. Nope, I am the help. They are here to see me. And you need to almost get over it. And it's blunt, it's hard, it's hard. But you are, you are their last line defense in sometimes, in some cases, sometimes.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:55]: We don't always have a huge medical team and a huge resourceful hospital. Sometimes you're the only provider in a rural medicine office and you are their doctor, for lack of a better term. So I'm very proud of my program for putting us in those positions early. Get over the awkwardness, get over the fear and be able to come out stronger. It's huge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:16]: You know, as you think about the transition that you went into graduate school, what you've learned thus far, and you think back to before you started, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Joslynn Walsh [00:12:30]: It's hard to think before this started, honestly, like, that's so cheesy, but honestly, this feels like it's gone on forever and I've only ever been in PA school. Was there ever a time before PA school? I don't know, I can't even think that far. But jokes aside, I, I do, I wish I had more opportunity to spend more hands on time with PAs, with COVID and some of those shadowing and turning restrictions, I didn't get to do that as much as I wanted. So I got to do some like over the phone, like interviews and questioning people who were already practicing, which was helpful. But it's totally different being in the clinic and seeing things hand on and in real time. And I wish I would have had that opportunity. To be honest, before my program timing was against me. I do feel like when I was applying and going through the process, but I think if I were to go on, I mean now I'm a cohort mentor.

Joslynn Walsh [00:13:22]: So for the upcoming cohort of class of 2028, now we got assigned our mentees and being able to assume that position and being able to maybe instill some advice going on. I do think that having a work life balance is crucial. You can't be in your books 24 7. It's not healthy, it's not maintainable. You want to be a good student, you want to be able to pursue your endeavors and have those hobbies. But to balance it. And you need to find something that works for you, whether it's making a schedule or setting aside specific time for activities or for studying. Setting yourself up for success in that capacity of work life balance, whatever it looks like for you, is huge.

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:05]: And I know a lot of speakers have touched on that in the past on the podcast. And it's not wrong and it must not be wrong because people keep encouraging it and reinforcing it. And it's very true. Grad students need to have a retreat, a form of self care, and you need to attend your studies. There's no way around it. There really isn't. You have to find something that is balanced and will get you where you need to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I know you just gave a piece of advice, but I want to leave one more opportunity that if you were thinking about a student that was thinking about graduate school, whether whether it be physician assistant or any other field, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to to every student?

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:49]: I think if it's regardless of it being medical, regardless of the background, I would say I think it's important to consider whether or not it's necessary. And what I mean by that is I would talk to people who are already in the field and really get the nitty gritty because some people have been extremely successful in respective fields having no master's degree. So it looks different with every profession. So I do think it would be important to have those conversations with people who are already working, who have had successful careers in the career you are desiring because there's nothing more concrete evidence than people who are currently doing the job you want. So in understanding that fields and careers change over time, so maybe requirements that weren't needed 10 years ago maybe are needed now. Maybe there are recruitment officers who are seeing a huge change in degrees and maybe populations saying everybody who we've hired in the last year had a four year degree and went on to get a master's. And maybe the fact of the matter is that's what's needed now for that job. So I think it's one thing to look things up and try to do your own research and it's a whole other thing to talk to people who are currently doing that job.

Joslynn Walsh [00:16:06]: So I know that sounds all very vague, but it's, it is sometimes vague. You need to hear it from the horse's mouth sometimes and know what you're getting into. So having those conversations with recruiters, going to job fairs is super important, especially if you are in more mathematics, a STEM field that's a field that's ever changing technology and advancement. So knowing what the most up to date information is super helpful. So I think talking to people who know what they're talking about is definitely helpful for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]: Well, Joslyn, I just want to say thank you. I know that you are still working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. It's out there. You're going to be getting into your clinicals here very, very soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the journey that you're on as you're going through this experience. But I really appreciate you sharing the journey thus far with all of us today. And I truly wish you all the best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:17:01]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you contemplating graduate school or already embarking on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" provides a wealth of inspiration and practical wisdom for anyone at any stage of their graduate education. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this insightful conversation with Dr. Greg Laurence, a seasoned professor of management at the University of Michigan-Flint, explores the twists and turns of building a career through graduate studies.

Dr. Greg Laurence offers a candid and relatable account of his own path—from earning a bachelor's degree in history, to teaching English in Japan, and ultimately finding his way into a management MBA and an international relations master's degree at Syracuse University. His story is marked by openness to change, reflection, and an emphasis on following your curiosity. He explains that the decision to pursue an MBA was driven by a desire to gain vocabulary and foundational knowledge in business, especially after experiencing the necessity for versatile skills while working abroad.

A key theme throughout the episode is the reality of transitions. Whether moving from undergraduate studies to the workforce, or shifting from professional roles back into academia, Dr. Greg Laurence discusses how these moments can feel daunting but are ultimately rewarding. From battling imposter syndrome to adjusting study habits that change with age, he insists that success is about finding your footing, developing effective routines, and embracing the challenges inherent in graduate programs.

The podcast doesn't just recount personal experiences; it's full of actionable advice for prospective and current students. Dr. Greg Laurence shares strategies for building self-belief ("You belong in this context"), leveraging diverse backgrounds for fresh perspectives, and not being afraid to voice ideas that may seem unconventional. Graduate school, he says, should challenge assumptions and push students to grapple with difficult questions in a supportive environment—without fear of costly mistakes.

"Victors in Grad School" is more than just a resource; it's a community for those on the graduate education journey. If you're on the fence about diving into grad school or looking for practical strategies to thrive, this episode is sure to resonate. Listen to hear not just the 'how,' but also the 'why' behind the transitions that shape successful careers—and discover the confidence to take the next step in your own academic journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being on this journey with you, this journey that you're on, to be able to move toward graduate school. And you might be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about, do I want to do this graduate degree? Or maybe you've applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're getting ready to start, maybe you're in graduate school, doesn't matter. But you are on a journey, and this podcast is here to help, because every week, I love being able to help you, give you some tools for your toolbox to help you prepare to be successful in this journey that. That you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: That's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences that can give you some different opportunities to be able to learn and grow from their own experiences. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Greg Lawrence is with us today, and Dr. Lawrence is a professor of management at the University of Michigan, Flint, and he's been here for a little over 15 years, and he's had his own graduate school journey. He started in Ohio and went from there to Syracuse, and we'll talk about all of that. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk. Talk about his own journey and to share that with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: Dr. Lawrence, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:01:31]: Thanks for inviting me. It's a good opportunity to reach out to prospective and current students and give them a, maybe a different kind of a sense of who a professor is and how in the world some of us got into doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, I want to take you back in time because I know, as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate degree at Ohio University, and you did that in history. And not everybody would expect that a person that got a bachelor's degree in history would go on to be a professor.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:00]: Not. Not everyone, including me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: So I guess I want to hear more of this story. So take me back to that point. So you did your undergraduate degree, like I said, at Ohio University, got that bachelor's degree in history, and then you had a little bit of a break where you had got some experience, did some different things, and at some point, you made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you chose to do an MBA So bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that that was the right time to make that switch and make that jump into graduating?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:35]: So it probably isn't the simplest answer. After undergrad, maybe, like a lot of people, I was a little bit lost about what I wanted to do. And I had gone into undergrad thinking for sure that I would go on to grad school in history. And I really got burned out as an undergrad and didn't feel like I was ready to do that at that point in life. And I had a job. I was working in a paint store, of all places. And that company, they actually approached me about joining their management training program. And going down that route is a fairly accelerated thing where you went through different rotations in different parts of the business.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:13]: And they were really sort of aiming for people who would end up as, like, district managers and continue on up the chain. And I knew pretty quickly that I was not all that interested in paint, and that that was not going to be a fit for me. And I remember I saw an ad in a. In a newspaper, said, do you want to work in Asia? Buy our book for 1995, and if you don't have a job within 90 days, we'll refund your money. And I thought, okay, well, try that. And that led to teaching English in Japan. I applied for a job within maybe two or three weeks of having that book, and within two months that I had a visa and was in Japan working. And I taught English there for six years.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:54]: I thought it would be one or two, and one or two became six. And really at the end of the fifth year is when I made this decision. So I was working at a high school, and I had this conversation with the principal about performance, as you do. You know, he was saying, oh, yeah, we're super excited. You're doing such a great job. We really love the work you're doing with the students. We want to keep you here, but we can't give you a raise. And there I was, frankly, I was at the end.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:17]: I had worked for a company teaching English for four years, and then I wanted to teach high school in junior high. So I left the company to go teach high school. When I did that, I took a pretty big pay cut, which was offset by free rent and some other things that the school had that ended up meaning I was making or what I had made when I left the company. But at that point, I was like, wait a minute. I don't think I can do this. As a long term career. And frankly I was not at all sure what I wanted to do. The goal was to be able to do anything in Japan that was not, not teaching English.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:49]: And as I thought about that, I thought working for the company where I had worked, we had been involved in the business. So we had monthly meetings about profit and loss at our branch school and how were we going to increase revenue, what were the different ways that we could increase revenue. And we had done some things but I had never really understood fundamentally what it was that made businesses tick. And it seemed to me as though if I was going to make this move from teaching into some non teaching field that having some training would be a good idea. And I mean, I think there are those who would say the heck with that, just find an entry level job, you can sell your transferable skills to somebody and you'd be able to find an entry level job. But I'm sort of more. I liked the idea of having some vocabulary and some sense of the way that people around me were going to be thinking. And that is really what led to the decision to get an mba.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:05:42]: And I was in Japan when I did all the applications. So I was geographically untethered from really I could have gone anywhere, anywhere in the US and ended up choosing Syracuse for a variety of reasons. One was the financial aid package, but another was the opportunity there to do a concurrent master's in international relations at the same time that I did the MBA and at the Maxwell School at Syracuse is a pretty well regarded school. So I was like, well that's a really cool combination that gives me the functional thinking around business, but then also satisfies some interests that I had connected back to history in an interest, interesting way. And it ended up turning out that that combination of things was really instrumental in terms of finding a job afterwards. Really fundamentally the reason the decision was based on. I was at a point in my life where I felt like I needed to make a left turn or right turn, whichever one you call it. But I wasn't going straight on from that point.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:06:42]: And that was the degree that I felt was going to open as many doors as possible and to make those ideas around. I don't know what industry I want to be in. I don't really know functional area of business I want to be in yet. But if I study them all, maybe that'll help me find a direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:59]: Now you found your direction because you went in, you went through that master's degree and you ended up going from there and you ended up Deciding to continue your education into a PhD?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:12]: Yeah, but not right away. So I did. Yeah, I did. I finished my MBA in 2003. The last semester of my MA I did at Waseda University in Tokyo while I had an internship at afs. I don't know if you're familiar with them. American Field Service to do foreign exchange programs for high school students. And I had been an exchange student in one of their programs when I was in high school.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:35]: So when I arrived in Tokyo, I sent a letter to their Tokyo office and said, hey, here I am. I speak Japanese pretty well, can I come and work in the office? And they said, sure, we'll give you something to do. So so I did that and until I was done with degree and then found a job for a development consulting company in Tokyo that was doing World Bank, Asian Development bank, those kind of big international financial institution consulting projects all over the world, I suppose mostly in Southeast Asia, but really in, you know, the former Soviet bloc. Lots of interesting places. And I worked in business development for them for two years and then transitioned over to. Transitioned from them over to the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan where I was the membership manager. Now that was a cool job. Actually both of those jobs were pretty cool.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:08:28]: But one thing that I discovered about myself was that I get bored pretty easily. And six months into each of those jobs I was like, oh my gosh, give me something different to do and something more meaty to chew on. And those contexts didn't allow for that. And I had had three professors during the MBA program, I think independ, but who knows, maybe they were talking to each other. They had suggested while I was in the MBA program, hey, have you ever thought about getting a PhD in management? And of course my answer was no. Who has? Conceptually I understood that the professors had PhDs in something, but what it was I didn't know. And that sort of earbud, I guess you'd call it, came back to me as I was sitting at work fairly bored. And so I got back in touch with one of those professors and I said, hey, can you tell me more about this? And he sent me a stack of peer reviewed journal articles to read and you know, said, read these and if, if you're still interested you can get back to me.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:30]: It was that realization that.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:34]: The sort of the intellectual stimulation.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:39]: I just hadn't. Maybe I, you know, there are probably places to work where one would get it, but I hadn't found them. And that's what really led me back to.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:48]: Thinking that a PhD at more graduate school was the right direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]: Now, with both the master's and the doctorate degrees, there are transitions, just like going from an undergraduate to a graduate degree. There's transitions in the way that you learn, the way that you're what you're expected to do, the all of those pieces. And you made transitions from your undergrad to work, from work, to school, from school, back to work, from work, back to school. You made a number of transitions in your journey. As you think about the transition transitions that you made in your master's, in your doctorate degree, and you think about what you had to do in those transitions, what did you have to do in those transitions, both at the front end when you were transitioning into graduate school to be able to find success, but what did you have to also do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:10:41]: So I think for sure, for the first one into the MBA program, that that was challenging because I didn't have, or I didn't think I had the sort of stereotypical, prototypical business background. Being a history major and then having taught English for six years, certainly I was worried about whether I would fit with the classmates in my cohort and whatnot who were coming from what I would have considered to be more traditional business backgrounds. And so there was some length of time during which I had to, you know, it was about establishing to myself that I belonged in that context. And, you know, I studied my butt off, frankly, for the first eight weeks or so of the first semester. I mean, until that first midterm came around, and it was an accounting midterm. And I was like, I cannot afford for this to go badly, so I need to nail this thing. When the grade came back from that, I was like, oh, okay, well, this may not be. This may not be so bad.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:11:43]: And that gave me a lot of confidence to then transition into, I guess, at that point, like a role that I really fit naturally. Right. All of a sudden, I had classmates coming to me for help on accounting and finance and supply chain homework, which, if you would ask anyone I know prior to me starting my MBA program, like, do you think people will come to Greg with questions and for help on quantitative things? They would have been like, you're out of your mind. Of course not. But I just found that it was a much better fit for the way that I think than I thought it was going to be. And I transitioned into that really well. I found that my background, you know, ended up being really valued in the classroom by classmates and by faculty. And I tell this to students.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:12:28]: I just had a conversation the other day, in fact, with one of this, one of our students who's in the MBA program, who is an educator, and she was expressing some worry about fit and whether she was in the right place and what was she going to be able to do post. And I said, look, we think that those kinds of different experiences that people have are really valuable. And you're working in an organization, you're working with people, you have the same kinds of interpersonal conflicts that everybody else has. Don't let anyone tell you that working in a school is not working in the real world. It's very real. And that once you realize that, okay, somebody, person X who works for engineering firm or a person Y who works for an insurance firm, they don't necessarily have a leg up on you in your area if you're coming at it from a different angle, because that different angle is by itself of value. So I think that was the big transition from sort of that first work experience into the MBA program. The transition into the PhD program was probably more difficult.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:13:32]: First, I was what, seven years older and my brain was seven years less sponge, like it was more like pouring water onto a brick. And some of it seeps in, but not very much. Like that's how it kind of felt when I started. And the intentionality of having to study really truly full time, 55 hours a week to make a dent in my understanding of the field that I was in was a real challenge. The first semester of the PhD program was much, much rougher of a transition than had been the first semester of the mba. But I mean, I think like, just as with the mba, it was about finding footing and figuring out your routine and figuring what kinds of study approaches work for you, like your body, your brain, everything about you is different at 30 than it was at 20. And so the, the same rules no longer apply. And you have to feel, feel things out a little bit there at the beginning to sort of understand, do you need him? I see young people all the time seem to be totally fine with studying in a coffee shop and with that noise and whatnot.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:14:37]: Or I could not. There's no way I could do that when I was 35, and no way that I would have had to be. I found myself needing to be in with noise, noise canceling, headphones on and completely isolated from everything to be able to concentrate on reading or whatever I was doing. So I think it's about finding your routine and finding, finding, you know, what works for you and how to how to balance your work in your life. You can study 100 hours a week if you want to. You probably shouldn't, I think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]: Yep, definitely understand that. And there is that balance that you have to find for yourself. And it's the notion, always easy, I guess, as you think about your own graduate school experience and you think about the experiences that you've had working with graduate students. Now you mentioned talking to a graduate student just recently about that I'm going to say imposter syndrome of am I really good enough to be here? Am I smart enough? Am I, you know, all of those things, those am I questions that come up as you think about students that are thinking about graduate school today, whether it be an MBA or some other pieces. What are some tips that you might offer them as they are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:15:56]: I mean, it's easy to say, but like, don't worry about that stuff. I think relatively few people make a decision to go to graduate school lightly. I mean, I think relatively few people wake up one day and say, I think I'm going to devote the next three years of my life to going to grad school. I think most people have put some thought into it and most people have investigated the content of the degree that they want to pursue. What's the curriculum going to look like, what courses are being offered, this kind of thing. And something about that has attracted them and taken them to the point where they're being intentional about filling out an application to do it. And if that's the case, then I think I would balance that self belief. I have chosen to do this because it's the right thing for me at this time in my life.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:45]: And that's going to, I think, balance out those questions that you have. And you need to sort of, you may be in that first class and.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:55]: Maybe somebody says something that you're like, that's really profound, like, how did they think of that? And that may be intimidating, but I would think to yourself and you know, think like all think about the fact that that person may be two thirds of the way through their program and they've been exposed to a bunch of content that you have not yet. And so it's natural that they've got these different lenses to view things through and they may say something that you're like, that's really cool. How did they think of that? Well, they thought about it, about it because they've been exposed to all of these other things that you're going to be exposed to going forward. And so maybe that's just an indication of how you're going to be able to think about stuff six months or a year from now and your tool kit isn't as complete as theirs are. And that's totally fine. So that I think is the biggest thing to realize is that, okay, yes, there are these moments that are going to feel intimidating, but if you think about them for a minute or two, you'll realize that it's probably just that those folks have a, have built things up and they've cobbled together ideas that you are yet to be exposed to. So take that idea that they just said and stick it in your back pocket and think about it. When you get into a marketing class, that concept that they were talking about comes up and now you can make that connection back to that first moment and be like, aha, I see what was going on there.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:18:13]: So that I think to me is the biggest thing that it's like, I don't know, I guess I can really remember being a, being like a freshman or a sophomore in college and you get a syllabus for a class and it would be like you have to write a 25 page term paper on some aspect of Babylonian history or whatever and you're like, I don't know anything about this. How am I going to ever write a 25 page paper on it? Well, of course you don't know anything about it. It's day one of the class and you're not going to know enough to even define a topic until week five. So relax, don't freak out about that stuff. The class, I mean, have confidence in the faculty. I mean, that's one piece of advice that's, that's a good one. Right? Broadly, we have thought faculty fairly carefully about does this class need a prerequisite in order for you to be successful? If not, you'll be okay even if other people are in the class and they've already had a bunch of other courses. Like we're, we've designed the course so that you can be successful if you don't have a prerequisite.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:11]: Because if you couldn't, we would put a prerequisite on it. So I think that's, that's one piece of advice, right? Is like, sure, be nervous. Sometimes stress is good eustress, they call it in the business. But you know, also realize that these things are sort of designed so that you're not being set up for failure. And.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:33]: If you do what's on the page as far as the syllabus is concerned and you read what you're supposed to read and you know you'll be okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:39]: Well, Greg, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing everything that you have learned thus far. And I'm sure you're still learning as you work with more students, as you're teaching more classes. But I truly appreciate your time today and for you sharing all of this with us, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:59]: If I can give one more piece of advice to a student, it is to not be afraid to express thoughts and ideas that you have about class content that may feel like they're coming out of left field. I have designed my courses to be the courses themselves are out of left field for a lot of people. They come in and they look at my syllabi and they go, what is going on in terms of the structure of the course and how the grading systems are set up and things like that. But they're designed to free the students to think about problem from different angles. And you shouldn't be afraid to do that. Graduate school is about exposing yourself to different ways of thinking and to challenge your assumptions, and it shouldn't be. And this is, I'm stealing from Michael Wheeler, who's a Harvard faculty member who wrote a paper about this that I read once. It should not be painless.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:20:50]: You should have your assumptions challenged and you should struggle with things. And if you're not struggling with things, like you're not probably, I think you're probably not thinking about them hard enough. You're just sort of scratching the surface of the content that's in front of you. And I would encourage you to go deeper and to grapple with the tough questions because it's a place where you can do that without costing your company $5 million. For example, the decisions that you make about how to think about a problem in a business class, I mean, if it's not right, that's okay, right? Learn from that mistake. You didn't just press the wr. The wrong button on a keyboard and cost, you know, make a trade you weren't supposed to that lost your company 3 million bucks or whatever. So it's.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:21:35]: I, I find the whole. I really liked being in grabbing and I like being in graduate school enough that I did it twice and spent a long time, a long time there. So hopefully students will, will hear this. Prospective students may hear this, think, you know what? I'm going to give it a shot, and I think you'll come out of the other side of it. With a real sense of accomplishment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that today, for sharing your own perspectives, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:22:03]: Thanks very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:25]: To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you considering graduate school or currently navigating your own academic path? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" shines a light on what it really takes to thrive—both academically and personally—through the honest, inspiring journey of Olivia Warrington, a second-year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the episode opens by setting the stage for listeners at any point in their graduate school journey. Whether you're just thinking about applying, already accepted, or deep into your studies, this podcast is designed to offer practical tips and relatable stories from students and experts who have been there before.

Olivia Warrington shares her winding road from an initial pursuit of veterinary medicine to discovering her passion for physical therapy—thanks in part to a serendipitous conversation with a peer. Her experience is a powerful reminder that sometimes, the most impactful decisions can stem from the simplest moments.

A major theme discussed in the episode is the need for self-discovery and adaptability. Olivia Warrington reflects on her transition from undergraduate studies, where she admits to "skating by," to finding success in graduate school through refined study habits and intentional learning. She candidly discusses her process of trial and error, emphasizing that what works for others may not work for you—and that's okay. Her advice? Develop effective study strategies early and continually refine them as you go.

The importance of balance comes up repeatedly. Olivia Warrington talks about the challenge of not letting academic demands eclipse family and personal life, recounting how she learned to say yes to life outside of school without sacrificing her grades. Her journey underscores that holistic success in graduate school means making intentional time for both education and cherished relationships.

Another highlight is Olivia Warrington's emphasis on building a supportive community. She gives credit to her peer group for providing not only academic support but also critical emotional encouragement. Find people who align with your values and study approach, she suggests, as these relationships can carry you through the toughest moments.

To anyone considering graduate school, she offers words of encouragement: have confidence in yourself, explore all opportunities, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Your educational path may have unexpected twists, but with the right mindset and support, success is within reach.

Tune in to this episode for honest insights, motivation, and the assurance that you're not alone on your journey to becoming a victor in grad school. Listen now!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. As you are thinking about graduate school, you may be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:31]: You may have already applied, maybe you got accepted, maybe you've started graduate school. No matter where you are on this continuum, you're on a journey. You're on a journey toward meeting the goals that you've set for yourself. And this podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. I love being able to have an opportunity every week to sit down with you, to talk to you, to provide you some hints, some tips, some things that you can use to be able to find success in your own journey sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about things in different ways and allow for you to learn from what they've learned in their own educational journey. This week we got another great guest. Olivia Warrington is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: And Olivia is a second year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she's had her own educational journey that led her to being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm excited to be able to talk to her, to learn from her, and to share that with you. Olivia, thanks so much for being here today.

Olivia Warrington [00:01:36]: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and I want to take you back in time because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Detroit Mercy, and. And at some point in that educational journey, whether it was right there at UD Mercy or sometime before that, or sometime in between, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education. You wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making that choice for yourself of wanting to continue that education.

Olivia Warrington [00:02:13]: I always knew from a young age that I was going to do more school after high school and I was probably gonna have to do more school after. I was probably gonna do some kind of GR program, my childhood dream. And up until my junior year, I was heavily committed to veterinary medicine. And I started that journey. And I got there and I went through. I was still a biology major at that time, so going into my third year, I took five years to do undergrad. And I. I was like, ah, this just doesn't feel right.

Olivia Warrington [00:02:45]: This doesn't feel right. I was talking to some kid on the soccer team, and he was like, I'm gonna do physical therapy. I'm like, what is that? What does that entail? So I into it. And I was like, you know what? This sounds like something I could do. This sounds like, you know, I'll just. I'll give it a shot. I'll go shadow. And.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:02]: And I loved it. And it's not a super glamorous story by any means. It's just some kid telling me what he was doing. And I. I was like, yeah, I mean, if you're doing it, maybe I'll like it too. And then I stuck with it. And I love it. And I'm so glad that that person told me that he was going to do physical therapy.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:17]: That was about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: So every person goes through a journey after they make that decision to try to figure out, where do I want to go. You got into that fifth year, and you're starting to think about, okay, where am I going to go? What do I need to do? What kind of things do I need to think about? You ultimately decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that process for yourself and what ultimately made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right school for you.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:46]: Yeah, overall, I was really looking for something to be close to home. Something I could commute and still live at home, save a bit of money, but if I had to stretch, I would. But. So I applied to all the schools in. In Michigan. I. I heard that physical therapy was really competitive. And so I was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna.

Olivia Warrington [00:04:03]: I'm gonna apply to everything, and hopefully I land somewhere. And fortunately enough, I actually got into quite a few schools, and I applied to nine, and I got into eight out of the nine. And I was. I was like, whoa. I did not expect that to happen. And I. Michigan and Oakland, Wayne State are kind of like the three commutable schools around me. And U of M Flint does a ton of community outreach, and I love that they can make this huge impact on mostly the neurological patients in.

Olivia Warrington [00:04:37]: In Flint with their pro bono clinic and all the exercise classes. I'm sure that Oakland and Wayne State also do those things as well. But I really liked going northbound on 75 instead of southbound. So it seemed like a great fit going and talking to the professors and whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Every student that chooses to go to graduate school has to go through a transition. You have to go through transition relearning how to learn in many different ways. Because you're educated in one way as an undergraduate student, you go to graduate school and there's different expectations from your faculty members. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. As you transitioned in and through your first year into your second year of physical therapy school, you found success. So what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your life, your graduate school journey thus far?

Olivia Warrington [00:05:30]: So, a little background on my undergrad. I. I wasn't a super great student. I. I really struggled. I had a really hard time finding what worked for me. And I just kind of like skated by and eventually it all clicked and it came together and it was good, but I never had any, like, true structure to my studying or to the people I surrounded myself with. And I, I just kind of, I just did it and then I ended up here.

Olivia Warrington [00:05:54]: And then in grad school, I had to really figure out. It kind of, it happened. So outcomes and you just have to pick it up and you have to study and you have to do it. So I had to find a great way to study and what personally worked for me because I was looking at other people and I was like, oh, that works for you and you're doing really good. That should work for me too. And that wasn't always the case. So I had to really quickly trial and error, all these different study habits. I found that in my first semester, but I really worked hard in developing those study habits.

Olivia Warrington [00:06:24]: And then it more fell into place second semester. And then by the third semester, I was like, this is it. This is how I'm going to study. This is what works for me. And then I was able to refine it from there, and it just works now. And now I'm doing good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:36]: So talk to me about what did you have to do to be able to find that vibe for yourself? We'll say the mojo that you had to figure out for yourself to be able to get yourself on that right path. Were there specific things that you had to do was a trial and error? Was it something else that really helped you get to that point where you figured out, this is the right place for me?

Olivia Warrington [00:06:57]: Yeah, yeah. So what I personally had to do was I. I Didn't know what I could do minimally to maximize my time. So essentially just overstudied. I overstudied for everything and I put a ton of time. I'm, I'm very surprised that I wasn't burnt out after my first semester, but I, after that I was like, something's gotta change before I do hit that burnout. So I picked out the good things and then I held onto those and then I slowly trialed out little things, just keeping the core, that core one good thing, and then added some, some others as I went.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:34]: I share, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you're in your second year and there are definitely things that you had to do as you went along that helped you to become the professional that you are becoming. And I'm sure that there may have been points along the way where that imposter syndrome snuck in. Talk to me about that and what did you have to do to handle that?

Olivia Warrington [00:07:57]: So with the imposter syndrome, I don't think it's hit me so much yet. I am just starting my first big clinical rotation, so I'm just starting to feel like I'm like, do I even really know things? Which I'm starting to come around to find out that I do. I'm only on day two, so we'll. I'm still trying to prove to myself, but handling it, I'm still trying to figure out what is working best for me. But so far it's just been making sure I feel over prepared for my clinical rotations. Like when the day, night before or even two weeks prior, I was, I was really like freshening up on my skills and I guess throughout the program when I have had those inklings of imposter syndrome, I have, I've just really dug into my work and really made sure that I feel overprepared for specific situations. But in the long run, I'm still, I'm still really trying to figure that part out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: So as you've been going through graduate school, there's a lot of times that, where you have to balance things and all of us wear different hats, we have different people vying for our attention, we have different things vying for our attention. And physical therapy as a educational area is a demanding field. It takes a lot of your time and requires a lot of you. So talk to me about balance and how did you find balance within your education in the sense of your schooling, but also balance in work and family and personal responsibilities that you had to maintain throughout graduate school?

Olivia Warrington [00:09:26]: This is a great Point and something that I really had a hard time navigating at the beginning. My first semester, it was just. I thought that I only could do school. I only said yes to school. And then it became very easy for me to just say yes to school and say no to everything else. So I. School just became my default. And I started missing out on things.

Olivia Warrington [00:09:46]: I started missing out on family events and I have little brothers, and so I. I started missing out on some of their big things. And I really hit a point where I was like, I really need to start prioritizing my time a little differently. I was doing really good my first semester and I was like, what can I. What can I cut to make it a little bit more of a work life balance type deal? So I just committed to saying yes to one thing. One thing. A week was my start. And so I started saying yes.

Olivia Warrington [00:10:20]: And I would go, I'd still do work that day or whatever in the morning, but. And then I. I saw the end result at the end of that second semester and I was like, oh, I did about the same. I did the same. So I'm still doing really well. I'm saying yes to family things. And then the next semester, I started saying yes to a couple more things. Just not extending myself over my limit, but still allowing myself to be immersed in my family and be a part of my little brother's life.

Olivia Warrington [00:10:48]: And my friends missed me so much and, and still did about the same. And so just a little bit of fluctuation, but I was still getting more family enrichment type deal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: So as you're thinking about the experience that you've had thus far in your experience in graduate school. And I know that the experience going through graduate school, especially within physical therapy, is a collaborative one in regard to the cohort that you are a part of and that you're with as you go through that experience and that it's important to have those systems of support for yourself throughout the graduate school experience. Talk to me about the relationships that you've been able to build with faculty or peers or students and how that has been able to help you in the journey that you've been on thus far.

Olivia Warrington [00:11:39]: Yeah, this one's also really important, in my opinion. At the beginning of grad school, we're all just individuals trying to find our way and trying to find our group. And then you start to slowly see everyone coagulate and you've got these groups. And I just. A couple of girls sought me out and they asked if I wanted to be a part of Their group chat and it just happened to work out so beautifully. The universe really aligned for me that day when I was asked to be. Kind of seemed like they're asking me to be their friend a little bit. And it was, it was very sweet.

Olivia Warrington [00:12:12]: And it just so happened that we had very similar study habits and just very a lot of things in common. How we view school, our excitement for learning and so finding that group that really fits what you, how you view school, how you view studying, how you view your career is very important. And I noticed that each of our little groups in the cohort are so vastly different in how we study and what we have in common and all these things. All very great individuals. But these groups, they fit together so beautifully and everyone succeeds in their own way. But with each other and having my friend group, I give them a ton of credit. I don't think I really would have made it this far without them and without their support. But we lean on each other so heavily and making sure that if it isn't really a great fit, we can always find another friend or at least someone to rely heavily on study wise.

Olivia Warrington [00:13:11]: But I really rely heavily on them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:13]: You know, another thing that comes to mind is that as you think back to your education, you think back to the transition into to physical therapy school and you think back to who you were before that. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Olivia Warrington [00:13:32]: I wish someone told me to have confidence. I know that's a simple one. I feel like a lot of people say that. But the confidence factor in my ability and my ability to study and my ability to potentially treat patients one day and to make a great impact in the community. I wish that was hammered, hammered in sooner. Sooner. It would have saved me some trouble in this last year. But yeah, I think that one's simple and sweet confidence.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:00]: And finally, as you think back to your own experience thus far and I know it's still going, but you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going to become a physical therapist or something completely different. What advice would you give to that individual that was thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner.

Olivia Warrington [00:14:22]: Smaller level study wise. I would find your way of studying in undergrad find that out sooner while you have room for more mistake. It will definitely save a lot of, a lot of hassle your first couple semesters if you have that lockdown sooner rather than later. But also to go and try everything. Go and shadow. Go, go ask as many questions as you can. I wish I. I wish that I.

Olivia Warrington [00:14:49]: I did that more. And I go to every in person interview and for. If you're applying and you get an interview to a school, go and look at the campus, talk to the students, go and do a tour on your own. I did that. And I think that was the best thing I could have done is I went and I just. I did it and I went in person and I experienced this whole beautiful process of applying to grad school. It's so hard, but if you can almost romanticize it a little bit and make it this, like, awesome process, it just makes it so much less stressful and so much more of an accomplishment when you get there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:23]: Well, Olivia, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing what you've learned thus far. I know it's not done. I know you still have time in front of you and probably your answers will be shaped over the next year and change as you are going through these intense clinical experiences. You're being put to the test for seeing how all that knowledge coalesces into the practice that you're doing with the patients that you're working with. But I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, and I truly wish you all the best.

Olivia Warrington [00:15:57]: Thank you so much and I hope this information helps someone on their journey. All right. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit. Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Are you contemplating graduate school, or already navigating its rigorous demands? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" serves up a dose of inspiration, practical advice, and hard-earned wisdom from Seana Goodson, a proud University of Michigan Flint online DBA candidate and Netflix professional. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this conversation shines a light on what true resilience looks like—along with tips that can help anyone thrive on their own graduate journey.

Seana's story stands as a testament to the power of determination, unconventional paths, and lifelong learning. From navigating early obstacles as a young mother to returning to school and excelling at each step—from undergraduate studies in Sociology and English, to earning her MBA, and now thriving in a rigorous doctoral program—she embodies the spirit of perseverance and ambition.

A key takeaway? Graduate school is no walk in the park. As Seana Goodson bluntly puts it, "you have to be ready—100% ready." She stresses the importance of preparing yourself mentally, communicating clearly with family and friends, and carving out dedicated time for study, regardless of personal or professional obligations. Managing distractions by setting boundaries, using tools like calendar blocks, and being transparent with those who support you are essential strategies for success.

A recurring theme is the importance of building a support system—your "tribe." Seana Goodson credits her cohort and mentor network for providing the encouragement, understanding, and motivation that help her stay on track. Whether it's a group chat with peers or finding mentors ahead of you in the process, leaning on this community makes the journey more manageable and far less lonely.

On the topic of burnout, Seana is candid: it happens, but prioritizing self-care makes recovery possible. Meditation, carving out quiet moments, and giving herself grace are all tools she uses to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

This episode is packed with encouragement and actionable tips, from the value of seeking out campus resources to the importance of giving yourself grace—especially when imposter syndrome creeps in.

Ready to hear more about Seana's journey and pick up inspiration for your own graduate school road ahead? Tune into this week's episode of "Victors in Grad School" and discover what it truly takes to be a victor in your educational journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Seana Goodson [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because it is a journey. Every one of you that are thinking about graduate school, no matter where you are in this process, are on a journey. Whether you're just at the very beginning starting to think about graduate school, maybe you've applied, maybe you got accepted, or maybe you're in a program. Doesn't matter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Every one of you is on this continuum, this journey that you're going to be going through to be able to move toward the goals that you've set for yourself. This podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. Every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the journeys that they have gone through or are in right now so that you can learn from them, maybe learn some things about what they did that maybe they wish they didn't do or things that they did that really worked. But in the end, it's all about helping you be successful. So I'm really excited that you're here, and I'm excited to introduce you to this week's guest, because this week's guest is Shauna Goodson, and Shauna has been in the entertainment business for many, many years. She works for Netflix and has her own graduate school journey, and she did her undergraduate work at Georgia State University, studying sociology in English. And we're going to learn a little bit more about the journey that she's been on to continue that education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: So I'm really excited to have her here today and to have her a part of this journey. Shauna, thanks so much for being here today.

Seana Goodson [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, I am really excited to have you here today to have you share some of this journey. As I said, I know that you did your undergraduate work at Georgia State University, and at some point in that journey, you made a decision because you were studying sociology and English. But at some point in that journey, you made a decision to continue your education. Bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I need to continue this and go to graduate school. What was going through your head and why did you make that choice?

Seana Goodson [00:02:34]: Well, for me, it's a lot of my so my journey has been anything but conventional. So I'll tell you about it. So even undergrad, so undergrad year, I've always been a rebel. So I'll let you guys know that right now. I've always been a rebel, so I'm always going against the grain. That's what we Aquarian people do. So when I was in undergrad, my sophomore year in undergrad, I got pregnant with my oldest son. So people said, oh, she's not going to.

Seana Goodson [00:03:01]: She's on the dropout. She's not going to go back to school. She's not going to do that. Yes, I did drop out. So that's why my journey is not conventional. So once I decided to go back, then I said, okay, all of these naysayers, you know, said, I couldn't. Let me show you. I can.

Seana Goodson [00:03:16]: So I did. So after I graduated from my undergrad with sociology in English, then I decided, okay, I'm going to go to grad school. I'm going to get my mba. So I did. I started on that journey and went to Nova Southeastern University, where I received my mba. And I've always had a thirst for knowledge, and I knew I wanted to continue. I knew I wanted to do something, even though my undergrad was soc. I knew I wanted to do something in the legal world.

Seana Goodson [00:03:43]: But I also have entertainment intertwined in that because I am a big entertainment fan. So I knew I wanted to start that journey somehow. I didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:55]: So talk to me a little bit about that initial decision. So you decided to go to Nova southeastern for an MBA. So why an MBA? But also, there's many MBAs that are out there. You were in Georgia. You were. You could have stayed in Georgia. You could have gone anywhere around the country, and almost every university has an mba. So talk to me about what was it about, specifically Nova Southeastern that ultimately made you decide that that was the right program for you?

Seana Goodson [00:04:24]: So the reason why I chose Nova 1 is because it was a highly reputable school. I mean, fantastic school. And one, I already had a child. So I knew I wanted to stay in the south because I had my kid. And. And also NOVA targeted people who are working adults. That. That's what stood out to me.

Seana Goodson [00:04:44]: I wanted a program where I could still have my job and take care of my son, but I can also get my mba and I could do it in a quick time. Like, I didn't have to take breaks. It wasn't that kind of schedule. So I just went all the way through and finished in 14 months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: Now, I know that since that MBA you went off, you worked. You've been working for many years. But at some point in this continuum of being in the entertainment industry for many years, at some point you made the decision, I'm not done and I want to continue. And you ultimately decided to apply to a doctorate of Business administration program here at the University of Michigan Flint. And you got in here. So talk to me about, just like we talked about with the mba, why a dba and why the University of Michigan Flint?

Seana Goodson [00:05:33]: Well, let's talk about the University of Michigan Flint. Let's talk about the University of Michigan, the best school on the planet planet. And I am a huge Michigan supporter. My youngest son graduated from Umich Ann Arbor, and he's now a student at Umich Flint, working on his mba. So we're just a Michigan family by far. And Michigan. What made Michigan stand out for me was the reputation where I know I can take this degree. This degree is not going to be just a dba.

Seana Goodson [00:06:03]: It's going to be a DBA from Umich Flint, period. So that's what was important. The reason why I chose to continue on my journey is one, I'm home by myself now. I don't have any kids in my house, but two, in my career, like I said, like, I'm thirsty for knowledge. Like, I want to learn more, I want to do more. And with AI being a big thing now in every industry, I said, okay, I need to go back to school. I need to get my dba. I wanted to stay in business.

Seana Goodson [00:06:30]: Since I already had an mba, it just made more sense for me to get a dba. And I wanted to become a subject matter expert in artificial intelligence and how it's affecting the entertainment industry. So my dissertation in a Nutshell is Gone is about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way studios hire voiceover talent. Because that's one of my big negotiations. I draft and negotiate deals every day for animation. And one of the big sticking points is you're going to steal my talent's voice. Are you going to make a show or they're going to be out of work? So I want to show people it's not necessarily that. It's not going to put people out of work.

Seana Goodson [00:07:09]: It's just going to enhance things for everyone. But with Umich on my back, I mean, I can take this everywhere. I can take this on the road, I can take this for Netflix. I could take this anywhere.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:21]: With every school that you go to and every program that you transitioned into. There are transitions. Going from being an undergraduate student to being a student in the mba, going from being in the entertainment industry for many years and then transitioning back into the classroom again. Transitions. And you found success in graduate school. Talk to me about at the mba, at the DBA level. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey that you've gone through thus far.

Seana Goodson [00:07:57]: To set yourself up for success? One is, you know, you have to be ready. Graduate school is no walk in the park. It's a lot of work. So in order for me to set myself up for success before I even started in any of these graduate level programs, I knew I had to be ready, 100% ready. No distractions. I mean, we all have distractions, but you just have to know how to deal with your distractions and you just have to be ready and then you have to give yourself grace. That's the one thing. And, but like I said, you have to be prepared.

Seana Goodson [00:08:29]: Like, I don't even know how to tell you to be prepared to be in this journey, but just know you need to be ready. Especially when you come to a school like UMich. Be ready. Because all the studies in any graduate level program is going to be rigorous. You know what I mean? It's not going to be simple. No one is going to hold your hand. But just being prepared, that's my only thing I can say is just being prepared and not having any, not letting distractions get in your way because you will have distractions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: When you talk about distractions, what have you had to do to be able to minimize those distractions for yourself that might help others as their step stepping into graduate school.

Seana Goodson [00:09:08]: For me, like, my schedule is busy. Like, I am slammed every single day, but I always carve out time that I know that I need to be focused on school and on my studies. And then as far as, like with my family, with my family, I always tell them, listen, I'm studying just yesterday, prime example. My sister wants to get on the phone and gossip about the housewives. I don't have time for that. It's like, listen, I'm working on my doctor right now. I. I have no time to talk.

Seana Goodson [00:09:36]: So I have to let my family know I can't do some of the things that I used to do. Not right now. I will. One, once I graduate and once I become Dr. Shawna, then I can do stuff. And who knows, I might not be able to then because I'll be doing. I'll be on to the next thing. But it's just being real open and transparent with, if you have a job, being transparent with your job.

Seana Goodson [00:09:58]: Listen, from this hour to this hour, I'm on dnd. Do not disturb me. And I do have a focus time on my calendar because for me, Sometimes I work 18, 20 hours a day. That's no joke. That's real. But people know if my calendar is blocked and if you're not pinging me saying, hey, I see your calendar is blocked for the next three hours. Is this real? Yes, it's real. I can't talk right now.

Seana Goodson [00:10:21]: So I feel like that's one of the things that helped me along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: I love that you said that because I have said that numerous times to many audiences along the way. To be able to say, hey, you do have to have those conversations up front. You need to make sure that as you are starting graduate program that you talk to the people around you. You need them as a support, as a support network. But at the same time, you need to be honest with them about what the reality is and what that experience is that you think the experience is going to be like. But then you have to go back and update them on what the reality actually is. Because you might say up front, I can talk to you every other day. But then as you get into it, you might be like, if I'm lucky, I'm going to be able to do this once a week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:06]: And because a lot of times your family or your friends think of you as, hey, I can just call shauna. Because we're BFFs and, and we always talk about the housewives. But the reality is they may. They've never been in a DBA program before. They don't know what it's like. And if you've said to them, I can talk to you every other day, they're going to expect you're going to talk to me every other day. And if you don't update that reality with them, they're going to feel slighted in many ways. So always continue the conversation, keep the communication open, and make sure that they are aware of what you're going through and what you need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Because if they're going to be a support, there's still going to be a support. They just need to know how to support you.

Seana Goodson [00:11:46]: I totally agree with that because I have three adult sons and two granddaughters, and their reality now is do I need to get on mom's calendar? Because they can't talk to me all the time. And if I'm in residency, because we have residency once or twice a month, I am totally blocked out. Like I'm up at 5 o' clock because my first residency is at 6am My time, which is 9 on the east Coast. I can't talk to you. Just like you hear my. The pings going off right now. It's only 7:25 here and people are already pinging me from my office. But, you know, it never ends.

Seana Goodson [00:12:24]: But I have to. You do. You have to be open with your family. You have to be open with your friends. Because I'm a socialite. That's real here. So brunch every Saturday or Sunday. I don't do those anymore.

Seana Goodson [00:12:38]: I can't do them right now. Only time I was able to do one is when we had kind of a break. We had like a. Maybe before I was transitioning to. From one semester to the next. I think I had like a couple of days break. I did go and brunch then, but the brunch I went on was with another UMich student who is also working on her DBA who's graduating next year. And we talked about school, of course.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:04]: And that's another great point, is that as you're going through that graduate program, find those supports that you can have that are part of the program, Whether they're in your year, they're ahead of you, they're behind you. Because those individuals can be individuals that can help you as well in many different ways. Because sometimes you just need to vent to people that really get it, and that is definitely an important piece.

Seana Goodson [00:13:27]: And find your tribe. So my cohort, we have a group chat that we get on them or we vent and then we talk about stuff and then we talk about. Do you understand this assignment? What. What should we be doing here? We do it all day. Like, we. And we all are working professionals. A lot of us are executives. So it's.

Seana Goodson [00:13:46]: We just carve out the time to reach out to each other and that's why we have the group chat. So some people may not be able to answer now, but they might answer at three in the morning, which is six for them and three for me. So you find your tribe and then like some people in your cohort, you might have a closer relationship. Like I have the one person in my. A couple of people in my tribe is Melissa, Lance and Aaron. Like, I talk to those people all the time. We'll get on the phone, we'll talk and. And we might go through assignments together.

Seana Goodson [00:14:16]: But those people become your. Your friends, your tribe. And so some of the, your, Your friends, your real circle, if they understand, they have to understand, like, okay, this isn't about us anymore. Now you have this whole new tribe of all these doctorate students, so you don't have time for us. But you. When you make them understand. Well, I have to talk to people who can. We.

Seana Goodson [00:14:39]: We can bounce ideas off. So my mentor from my first. Is from the 1st DBA Corps. And I talked to her. She's awesome because she's already been through this journey. She's already hit certain walls that I have to hit. So. And then now I'm a mentor at.

Seana Goodson [00:14:56]: In Michigan Flint for people under me, like master's students. So that's a blessing in itself because it makes me feel good to be able to help someone along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:04]: Now you've already been talking about how busy you are. You've got a ton of things happening. Netflix, you have a ton of things happening with your family and friends and a lot of people pulling from your time. For many students, that could lead to burnout. So talk to me about how did you. Do you avoid burnout? Or how do you recover from it when you have felt overwhelmed thus far?

Seana Goodson [00:15:28]: The way to avoid burnout. And I am just a firm believer in this. I meditate. I used to believe in that because I said, oh, that's just bogus. That's an L. A thing like people. Everyone out here meditates. But it's real.

Seana Goodson [00:15:42]: Sometimes I'll just sit in silence and I meditate. And I have these little things right here that I keep. These are. These are crystals that I keep. I just believe in energy and stuff. But. But I do. I meditate and I take time for myself.

Seana Goodson [00:15:56]: And sometimes I'll take. Even if it's only five minutes, you take the time for yourself because you will burn out if you keep on the route that you go. Like for some. Like for instance, someone like me who works a lot. I work a lot. So I'm juggling all of these 50 million things, but then I'm juggling 50 million things from school. And you will hit that wall. And then so you have to.

Seana Goodson [00:16:20]: One step back. You have to give yourself grace. You have to talk to yourself. You have to encourage yourself. Every day I get up, I look in the mirror. I always say, girl, you are everything. You have to do that for yourself. You have to talk to yourself.

Seana Goodson [00:16:34]: But my one thing, yeah, is definitely is meditation. Meditation and green tea. Decaffeinated green Tea. That's my. That helps me from burning out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:43]: As you think about your own graduate school experience and you think about what you experienced along the way, talk to me about a defining moment for yourself or a turning point that really shaped your academic or professional journey.

Seana Goodson [00:16:57]: I'm an overachiever. So in this doctorate program, I'm still a 4.0 GPA. And I set those goals for myself every month. Like people say, oh, don't set yourself up for that. Don't set yourself up to saying, oh, I have to have a 4.0. For me, I do. I have to have a 4.0. It's a goal.

Seana Goodson [00:17:15]: And that. That lets me know I'm working hard. I'm never satisfied. So for me, my turning point was one, was getting into this amazing program. That was a turning point for me. That's everything. Like, if you come in my house right now, my house is Mason blue. True is if I'm looking at everything right here in front of me, I'm on my desk, everything is amazing blue.

Seana Goodson [00:17:36]: So that was a turning point for me in my life, period. Like, just to be able to say, I will be a part of this esteem Michigan went alumni. Do you know how amazing that feels? And just to meet other people within my network who are at Netflix. You know how many University of Michigan people we have there? I mean, tons. So we all are like, oh, just so proud. But the turning point for me is getting into the program. And then even though I'm successful, it makes me feel more successful because I know the journey I'm on. I know what I'm going to do.

Seana Goodson [00:18:13]: I know that I'm going to become a subject matter expert for Michigan. I know that eventually I will teach at Michigan. That's my goal. When this entertainment world is all said and done, when I retire, which I don't know when it's going to be my dream and my goal is to become a part of Michigan faculty. And that's a fact. Everyone knows that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:34]: So as you think of your experience through the MBA and through the DBA thus far, what's something you wish someone had told you before, before you started graduate school?

Seana Goodson [00:18:44]: Take a beat. I mean, I know I'm talking in entertainment terms, but just to slow down, just take a beat. Because you get so excited. And I wish that someone would have told me that. I wish someone would have told me that all through my life, period. But coming into grad school, when you first start, it's like drinking water from a fire hydrant. It's so much Information coming at you at all times. So if you just take a beat and just sit back and just take that time, I wish someone have told me that.

Seana Goodson [00:19:14]: So that's the one thing that I like to tell people, even my mentees. Take a beat, give yourself grace. You don't have to know everything all the time because you're not going to know everything. It's a lot of people out here that will know a lot more than you. For me, I suffer imposter syndrome. That's real. Everywhere I go, I suffer. No matter how high I get, no matter how many degrees I get, I'm still looking around.

Seana Goodson [00:19:40]: It's like, did they make a mistake that they know that they let me in this program? Did they know that they're giving me this job? You go through that. And I wish I would have known about imposter syndrome and how to deal with it, but I'm coping with it now. I'm learning. Like, girl, you're smart. Chill out, you're okay. You'll be fine. So that's the one thing, because I know a lot of people will suffer that, especially coming into grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:03]: Finally, as we finish up today, as you think back to graduate school, at your MBA at the DBA level, and you're thinking about other people that are coming behind you. Beyond what you just said, are there other tips that you might want to offer anyone else that could help them find success in graduate school sooner?

Seana Goodson [00:20:21]: Find your tribe. That's the one key thing. And University of Michigan has so many resources out here. It's so tons of resources. We have caps with Dr. Tookes. We have so many different programs, so many different organizations you can join. But like I said, once you start, like, just find your tribe.

Seana Goodson [00:20:41]: Once you find your tribe, you're going to feel so at ease. You're going to see other people who are going through the same things that you're going through. For us at Umich Flint, there is no excuse because you have so many resources. You have the graduate school office, who is amazing. Teresa, who's over there, amazing. It's so many amazing people. And even if you're doing this online, please find the time to go to the campus, the most beautiful campus that there is, with the river running down the back. Please go.

Seana Goodson [00:21:08]: The library. Beautiful. Just go. And once you do, I think you should touch that soil at least one time. And if you can't, just look at it online. It's absolutely beautiful. And stay in touch with the graduate school office because they are a wealth of knowledge. And a wealth of resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: Well, Shawna, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you so much for everything that you shared today and for everything that you're doing as you're working toward finishing up that doctorate degree for yourself, that dissertation, and reaching the goals that you've set for yourself. I'm really excited to watch your journey in the future and to be able to see where you end up in the future as well. And I wish you all the best.

Seana Goodson [00:21:49]: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me and Go Blue!

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:52]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school can be an overwhelming journey, filled with big decisions, self-doubt, and transformation. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Julia Stulock, Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her unique path from psychology undergraduate to sports management graduate student.

If you're considering grad school, currently navigating your studies, or simply looking for inspiration, Julia's story is a must-hear. She opens up about how her undergraduate experience prepared her well—often in surprising ways—for the academic rigor ahead. As a commuter student at UM-Dearborn, Julia always thought she'd go into research or become a professor, but her campus involvement revealed an entirely new career path in collegiate recreation. This episode underscores the value of staying open to new opportunities and following where your interests lead.

One of the central themes is the importance of choosing the right graduate program. Julia encourages prospective students to consider not just the academic aspects, but also location, assistantship opportunities, and overall fit. Her experience at the University of Connecticut was shaped not only by a robust sports management curriculum but by a graduate assistantship that paid for her school and provided a stipend—a key piece of advice for future applicants.

Listeners will also appreciate Julia's candid discussion about the challenges of transitioning to graduate study: balancing school and work, adjusting to new expectations, and handling imposter syndrome. She highlights how building connections—through clubs, professional organizations, and classmate relationships—is essential for both emotional support and professional development. Her story is a reminder that community matters, and finding your people can make all the difference during tough times.

Julia's advice is both practical and heartfelt: don't be afraid to try something new, take calculated risks, and seek out opportunities, even if they seem outside your comfort zone. Graduate school, she says, is "where I found my passion," and recommends reaching beyond the classroom to maximize your growth.

Tune in to this episode to hear Julia's reflections on how graduate school changed her approach to problem-solving and time management, and learn what she wishes someone had told her before she started. For anyone at any stage of their academic journey, Julia's story is a powerful reminder that success often comes from embracing change, building connections, and following your passion.

Ready for more inspiring stories and essential advice about thriving in graduate school? Listen to the full episode now!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because it is a journey not no matter where you are in this continuum of looking at graduate school, maybe you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, should I do this? Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't, or maybe you've applied, waiting on that applicant that, that decision from your application, or maybe you just got accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are, you are on a true journey. And this journey can go in many different directions. But this podcast is here to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to be able to figure things out ahead of time, to give you some tools for the toolbox to help you figure out how to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: Because that's what we all want. We all want to be successful in this academic journey that you're on. And whether it be from me, from a person in charge of graduate programs, I want all of my graduate students to be successful in this journey that they're pursuing. But personally, you do, too. And that's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of their own experiences in going through graduate school that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest with us. Julia Stulock is with us. And Julia is the Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn and then went on from there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experiences and to have her share that with you. Julia, thanks so much for being here today.

Julia Stulock [00:01:53]: Yeah, really happy to be here and talk through my grad experience. Even though it was a little ways ago, it would be fun to walk down memory lane.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I know, as I mentioned, that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and you got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology there. And at some point, at some point during that undergraduate experience, you made a decision to continue on to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head. That made you decide that grad school was the next step?

Julia Stulock [00:02:27]: I think for me, because as you mentioned psychology major, I actually got my minor in stats. I always thought I was going to go to grad school. Whether it was because I wanted to become a professor or do research was the initial plan. I knew I'd have to get a degree beyond my bachelor's to do that. However, through my involvement on campus, I was involved in a club sport. By about my junior year, I started to realize through talking with other club sport leaders at other institutions, I was like, oh, there is a whole career path here in collegiate recreation that Dearborn doesn't have like a full recreation department. It's part of athletics. So I didn't realize, like, oh, this is like a whole separate department on some campuses.

Julia Stulock [00:03:09]: So it was about halfway through my junior year that I realized I do still want to go to grad school, but I'm going to go for sports management instead of psychology like I originally planned. Because I saw this as an opportunity to keep doing something I love, but I need to get a degree in it to make that connection happen for my path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: So you decided on moving in a different path from psychology and moving a little bit of a different direction. So as you were making that decision for yourself, there are plenty of different programs that are out there in the area that you chose to study. And I'm sure that you went through your own process of exploring different programs, looking out there to determine what was the best fit for you. So talk to me about that process for yourself. I know that you ultimately decided to go to the University of Connecticut for their Master of Arts in Sports management. So talk to me about the process you went through to be able to identify the programs that you were considering and then what made you ultimately decide that the University of Connecticut was the right fit for you?

Julia Stulock [00:04:15]: So I grew up in Michigan. I was a commuter student to Dearborn. A big part, I will admit for my search was I wanted to experience a different place. So I purposely looked only at out of state schools. I did my research online by looking through different rating website to see who had the best sports management degrees out there. There's also recreation management, which isn't as common as sports management. I didn't even know for sure that I wanted to work in collegiate recreation. Honestly, at that point I just knew I wanted to work in sports.

Julia Stulock [00:04:48]: So I thought maybe that would look like an athletic department and CIA sports or possibly recreation. So I just was like, sports Management Recreation looked at the best programs out there. Also visited campuses. I was lucky enough to have friends scattered throughout the country that I could kind of go visit and stay with them and then go visit campus. So I looked anywhere from West Virginia University to University of Texas to a small school in Massachusetts, and I narrowed it down to, like, about my top six or seven to apply to. And as I was doing that, I also learned that there are these things called graduate assistantships or teaching assistantships at some schools. And that's ultimately what helped me decide on the University of Connecticut. I was accepted to a couple other programs, but I was offered a graduate assistantship in club sports at the University of Connecticut.

Julia Stulock [00:05:38]: And they helped pay for my school and also gave me a stipend. That sealed the deal. There was another school I was considering. I'm like, oh, wait, you're going to pay me. I will absolutely go there. And they also had a great program to join for their sports management.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: For every student, as they're transitioning from an undergraduate degree into a graduate degree, there is a definite transition that happens. There's a transition in the way that you're taught, the way that you're. The expectations that faculty have of you. And every person has to go through their own journey to be able to understand what that means for them and how to manage that situation for themselves. So as you were transitioning into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you were going through that graduate school experience, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Julia Stulock [00:06:32]: I think, thankfully, my undergraduate experience, I feel like, really prepared me very well for grad school. That, in fact, I had the same textbook for one of my statistics classes that I used in undergrad, and it was the same one. I'm like, I'm repeating a class here. Hold on. So I was really thankful for that, that Dearborn prepared me really well. And I think some of those changes you see going into grad school, right, is like you have these closer relationships with faculty who have smaller class sizes. And again, because Dearborn, just like Flint, has some of those smaller class sizes, I was already used to talking to faculty, not TAs, full professors. And I wasn't afraid of those conversations.

Julia Stulock [00:07:11]: So I think that really set me up for success, that I didn't feel weird. Like, I had classes with 12 people. Our class size at UConn, my sports law class was small. We had a lot of serious, like, you know, detailed discussions. You couldn't not participate in those. So I think not being afraid to talk to your faculty is a big key to success. From my experience, just doing well in your undergrad classes, paying attention, because you never know when it might overlap or just it's building on top of something in grad school that it might feel like, well, why do I need this? I'm going into sports management. Statistics was required.

Julia Stulock [00:07:49]: There were two required classes in grad school. I still had to take it. So not just assuming you won't need it again was really important. And I think one of the bigger challenges for me transitioning to grad school was that work school balance. Because of my graduate assistantship, I was working a lot of hours there, and that proved to be challenging in terms of making sure I was setting aside enough time, getting enough sleep. I was also not commuting any longer. So, like, being away from home and family, and it was more just about building those bonds so that you would have the support system. So, like, friends joining a club on campus so that I would not just be on my own and I had those support systems in place far away from home was really important because I can actually remember thinking at the end of my first semester, I would not have stayed at UConn unless I had joined the running club there, because that's how I made my friends.

Julia Stulock [00:08:43]: That's how I felt like I belonged somewhere. That was really important because I think I would have left.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: You know, I hear from a lot of graduate students that beyond the. Especially if they go away from home, beyond the separation anxiety and some of the other anxieties that they run into, there's this feeling of, am I meant to be here? Am I good enough? Can I live up to the expectations? Which comes down to what people call the imposter syndrome. And I guess as you think back to your own experience, how did that imposter syndrome or self doubt impact you and how did you handle it?

Julia Stulock [00:09:15]: Yes, there were times, like I mentioned, that first semester was just hard, learning all these new things. I was in student affairs for the first time as well, because I had been an intern in the athletic department at Dearborn, which at the time, I didn't even know anything about student affairs. I don't know if we had a division. I had no idea what I was doing. There was a lot of learning about student development that, like, yeah, it made me go, like, what did I sign up for? Am I supposed to be here? Is this supposed to be this hard? And trying to think of, like, how did I overcome that? I think it was more just like talking with my classmates because a lot of us had graduate assistantships across campus. And it was reassuring to hear that other people had those same thoughts, that it wasn't just me. Well, and everyone can't not belong here, right? There was that common thread of, wow, we feel like this is a lot. And also just hearing sometimes stories of like, wow, I thought I had a hard day, but theirs was harder.

Julia Stulock [00:10:11]: Just commiserating with each other was really helpful. And then overall, just being able to reflect on, like, this is just a part of growth. It is difficult and accepting that that comes with it. And again, those connection pieces of just finding people you connect with, where I felt like I really found my group towards the end of my first year. And that made the second year feel like I belong because I, I just had those connections built in where when you're the new kid, it's really hard to feel connected because you, you. It takes time to build those connections.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: One thing that comes to mind, you know, earlier you talked about when you were looking at different programs, you looked at sports management, you looked at recreation management. You're currently in more of a recreational services, recreation management type of role at the University of Michigan, Flint. If you look back and I know your graduate degree was a, a number of years back, as you mentioned at the beginning, but if you had to do it, would you choose the same program or would you choose a different path? Why or why not?

Julia Stulock [00:11:07]: I would do it all over again. For me, at the time when I was trying to decide between the two paths, it was more out of. I just didn't know enough about either one to decide for sure. And I knew I have two small kids. I knew that I wanted to have a family one day, or at least I hoped I would. And I saw the lack of work life balance, at least from my counterparts and my classmates in the athletic world. The amount of late nights and weekends and the hours like, I mean, not that I had a cakewalk, but man, theirs just seemed a lot more difficult. And I saw that, that just seemed to be a common thread across athletic departments and that didn't fit with what I was looking for.

Julia Stulock [00:11:49]: I still have friends to this day that work in that field and they love it. And you've probably asked them, they wouldn't do anything different either. But for me, I knew I was looking for something that had more of that be balance. That wouldn't mean I was working every night and every weekend. So I would absolutely do it again. I would go to UConn again as well, because I will say I was challenged, but I grew a lot. I learned a lot. It is where, as I mentioned, I was introduced to student affairs and it is where I realized I really had this passion for collegiate recreation and that it could be something for everyone and not just the best of the best of athletes among us.

Julia Stulock [00:12:28]: That it can be for everyone the best of the best and those just looking to have fun or to start a fitness journey. I was lucky enough to be a part of founding a governing body for a club sport which really opened my eyes to that too of just like the impact it can make on student experience and lifelong things too, like finding a partner or lifelong friends. And that's why it still keeps me here, is that I found that passion so I would not change a thing at all. And glad for the experience I had.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: I know you mentioned earlier the importance of that running club as well as some finding that group for yourself. And sometimes students kind of buckle down and they think, especially with being more and more programs being remote from a campus, sometimes it's not always that easy to make those connections. I guess as you think back to the experience that you had and you were in a program that was in person and on a campus, talk to me about that connection and building those connections and the importance of being engaged beyond the classroom and what that did for you as a student.

Julia Stulock [00:13:34]: Me being engaged outside the classroom is what helped me find my passion and my career path. But when thinking specifically about grad school. Right. I mentioned that running club because that was my in person connection. However, it helped me expand outside of our campus because this governing body that I mentioned is called nerca, it's National Intercollegiate Running Club Association. At the time I was the membership coordinator. So I got to talk with club leaders from across across the country about their running clubs and make friends and connections that way and learn about club sports that way. About how all the different ways that their departments run and how you know what type of support they had or didn't have.

Julia Stulock [00:14:15]: And that was equally as important to my development and growth as what I was getting on campus. Because again, I still have those friendships to this day, decades later that are so meaningful in terms of again the impact we're making or just having a friend that you could call up somewhere and say like what do you think about this? Or what are you seeing? Because maybe they work in my field. So those. I think it's more just about finding like you mentioned that connection outside of the classroom. Whether it's a student org on campus, maybe it's volunteering with a group somewhere in your interest in your field, maybe it's reaching out to a professional to pick their brain and you end up finding a great mentor. You have to reach beyond that classroom because I don't know, for me personally, it's just where I felt like I got the most growth. Because as much as you can try to make a project in a class mirror the real world, it's never going to quite get it right fully if it's just a short couple week project. But that's where I got the most meaningful lessons and connections, was through finding those groups and connections outside of the class.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: You know, as you think about your graduate school experience and what you're doing today, how did graduate school change the way that you think work or approach problems?

Julia Stulock [00:15:32]: I think probably more just on the proactive side because I mentioned that the time management piece I had to learn between balancing school and work was just more than I had experienced before. So it was more this forward thinking and planning and whether it's writing out your assignments in your planner or planning out what you have going on at work so you can be ahead of it. For me, I am a planner. I like to think ahead on things. I want agenda bullet points in advance. And that's not just because I'm trying to get ahead of the curve. It's so that I can have time to problem solve. Because problem solving on the fly might not result in the best end result than if you can go, oh, I have a problem, but I have two weeks to solve it instead of two hours.

Julia Stulock [00:16:17]: So, yeah, it's more that just. I think it's that pre planning and thinking, okay, what do I have coming up? Is there anything I can do now to help myself so that I don't get myself in a pickle?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:28]: And as you think back to grad school and you think back to the journey that you went on throughout your time there, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started grad school?

Julia Stulock [00:16:39]: I really wish someone had explained to me what graduate assistantships were. I really feel like I stumbled into what I got and I was very lucky. Such a good experience. But golly, like what? Oh, I just wish I had understood. I thought they just paid for school. I didn't understand. It came with a stipend until I literally got my offer letter in the mail. I went, oh, they pay me to.

Julia Stulock [00:17:02]: I had no idea. And I think that would have changed. I don't even think I know it would have changed how I approached my search because I realized that there were some programs that there's one in particular, I'll leave them unnamed. I didn't realize that basically you need to have a GA position in order to get into their program, but I didn't know they existed. And they start those search processes so early. Like it could have been like they open applications in November, December. I had no idea. And it would have really helped me because I could have gotten in my.

Julia Stulock [00:17:31]: I thought it was you applied for school and then you applied for the graduate assistantships or the teaching assistantships. So just someone that could have helped explain that that is there and can help potentially pay for grad school and maybe inform where you go if you're willing to go where the money is and you have open doors where you're willing to go, that would have been immensely helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:52]: Finally, as you think back to that entire experience and you think about other people that are considering going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others beyond what you just said about the graduate assistantship that might help students find success sooner?

Julia Stulock [00:18:08]: Don't be afraid to try something new. I know it sounds cliche, but truly, whether you're going to grad school full time or you're working and going to grad school, you might not have another opportunity to take a risk that doesn't have really far reaching implications if it doesn't work out. So like waiting few years after you have your master's and going like, I really, oh, I really wish I'd try that. I'd have to leave my job to do that. Don't be afraid to take that risk in grad school if you're not sure. Like I was talking about like athletics, recreation, what do I want to do? Right? I started talking to people and realized, oh, maybe that's not what I want to do. Or maybe you apply for an internship to get more information experience in somewhere or to just shadow someone. Don't have to win an internship, just shadow someone.

Julia Stulock [00:18:58]: If you're not sure, take that risk and reaching out or trying something new because maybe you'll find out something isn't for you or maybe you'll find that new passion. You're like, this helps me decide where I want to go. Because the more committed you can be to a goal, I think the sooner you can find success because when you have that full commitment, interest and passion, you can find that trifecta. You'll find success because work will feel less like work and more like fun, hopefully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:26]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing all that you learned in your own experience, and I truly wish you all the best.

Julia Stulock [00:19:34]: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:36]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning opportunity, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

Are you considering grad school or currently on the graduate education journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" offers a wealth of insightful advice, candid reflections, and actionable tips for students at every stage of their academic careers. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at University of Michigan-Flint, this episode features guest Lucas Langdon, Assistant Dean of Students at the University of Michigan - Flint and a current PhD candidate.

Personal Journeys: Decisions and Mentorship The conversation begins with Lucas Langdon sharing his unique path from undergraduate studies to a thriving career in student affairs and eventually to graduate studies. He emphasizes the importance of mentorship and how key advisors helped him realize his passions could turn into a profession. For first-generation students, like Lucas, pursuing graduate studies can be daunting; strong mentors and professional opportunities, such as temporary staff roles after graduation, can be transformational.

Choosing the Right Program One theme that resonates throughout the episode is the process of selecting a graduate program. Lucas Langdon recalls nearly rushing into a decision due to deadlines but ultimately taking the time to research top programs, visit campuses, and evaluate the fit. The lesson: don't let urgency override intention. Prospective students are encouraged to engage deeply with programs, faculty, and campus environments before making their choice.

Finding Financial and Professional Support The episode also highlights the value of graduate assistantships. Both Langdon and Dr. Christopher Lewis discuss how assistantships—whether in student affairs or other fields—provide not only crucial financial support but also practical experience relevant to students' future careers. Listeners are advised to inquire early about assistantship opportunities, scholarships, and tuition benefits—sometimes available through employers.

Balancing Life and Studies Graduate school often means balancing academic, professional, and personal responsibilities. Lucas Langdon provides honest advice about managing these demands, sharing his own experiences juggling full-time work and doctoral studies. He underscores the necessity of creating boundaries, finding peer support, and maintaining perseverance—even when motivation wavers.

Building Networks and Planning Ahead Finally, listeners learn that faculty and cohort peers become an invaluable professional network. Lucas Langdon advises students to nurture these relationships and focus papers and projects on topics of personal passion, laying the groundwork for future research.

Ready for more inspiring and practical grad school insights? Tune into "Victors in Grad School" for expert advice and personal stories that can help you confidently chart your own path to graduate school success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and. experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to sit down, talk to you, to work with you as you're going through this journey that you're going on, this graduate school journey. And no matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do right now, right now, while you're sitting there listening, that can help you to be better prepared and better successful in this graduate school journey that you're on. You could just be starting to look and thinking about graduate school. You might have applied, you might have gotten accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: Maybe you're in graduate school. There are things, no matter where you are in this continuum, that you can learn from others that have gone before you that will help you to be successful in this, this journey. And that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you to help you to learn, to grow, and to be able to get some new tools for your toolbox to help you find success sooner. Today we got another great guest, Lucas Langdon, who's with us. And Lucas is the assistant Dean of students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And Lucas has his own journey of going to graduate school, and he's currently a graduate student right now. So we're gonna be talking to him about this experience and this journey that he went on himself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Lucas, thanks so much.

Lucas Langdon [00:01:47]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: You know, I'm really excited to have you here today. And I know, I love starting these conversations, really making you go back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. You did your Bachelor of Science in English Liter and Language and also Communication and Theater Arts. And then there was some point in time where you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on. And what I would love for you to do is to take me back in time. Take me back to that moment, that point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I want to continue, and I want to move forward and get that graduate degree.

Lucas Langdon [00:02:32]: So, as you know, my career has been in student affairs, and that started as a student who was very involved. I did something that would be unthinkable today. I delayed my undergraduate graduation by a year because I was involved in so many sort of outside of the classroom experiences that I wasn't ready to give up on. And so I kind of deferred that and during that year of deferment, really struggled with what am I going to do with my life? One of my mentors sort of made the obvious connection for me. You can continue to do the kinds of things that you're really passionate about here as a professional. And so, as luck would have it, there was a temporary staff opening at Eastern about the time I was graduating. And so I was able to jump into a staff role for that first year while I was figuring out what grad school looks like and had the ability to have those mentors who were supervising me there walk me through because I was a first gen student. So the idea of college was challenging, but the idea of graduate school was completely unheard of in my family.

Lucas Langdon [00:03:32]: So having those mentors kind of talk me through, what does a grad school search look like? What are the important things to think about and sort of save me from a couple of maybe hate hasty decisions I could have made there. And then as that first temporary position was coming to an end, another one opened up, and that one sort of filled my time until I started graduate school the next fall at Florida State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:57]: So, as you just said, you decided to attend Florida State University, and it sounds like you did your due diligence in trying to look at different options and look at different schools and try to decide for yourself what was the best fit for you. Talk to me about that process, what you did to go through that. You mentioned avoiding some mistakes. So maybe talk about some of those possible mistakes you may have made and what made you finally ultimately choose that Florida State was the best.

Lucas Langdon [00:04:27]: So what I was really alluding to with the mistakes is I almost rushed my search. And what I mean by that is I decided a little late in the cycle of things at that time with application deadlines, that I was going to go on this graduate school journey, as you put it. And almost every school's deadline had passed. All of the ones that my mentors were recommending as good student affairs graduate programs had passed, with the exception of one, which I won't name. But I didn't end up going there. I'm sure they're fine, but I had hastily decided, oh, I'll just apply to this, the only one I can apply to, having never been to campus to see it or really know anything about it. And So I sort of wisened up and decided, okay, no, I'm going to wait. This employment opportunity with the 10 position luckily came up.

Lucas Langdon [00:05:07]: That afforded me the ability to do that, to wait a little bit longer and do a graduate school. The search the right way and what the right way looked like for me in my field of higher education, student affairs, was really doing some research into what are the top programs in my field, setting up some visits with them and at the time was willing to travel across the country and start over somewhere else for a little, for two years for graduate school. And so I convinced one of my buddies to do a road trip with me and I did back to back visits at Florida State University of Florida, University of South Carolina. And I think there might have been one more in there and at the time had pretty, pretty high rankings in my graduate program that I was interested in. So I went. I probably made some naive cosmetic assumptions about the schools that now having been in the field for a long time, I maybe wouldn't care so much about. But what it came down to is how I felt when I was there. And the reason that Florida State sort of won that, not that it was a competition, but won the competition for me, what a prize was that when I got there, they made sure that there were folks from the program to talk to me.

Lucas Langdon [00:06:10]: They showed me around. It already felt like they were treating me like a human being and not a number. They did have a really good reputation at the time. I think they, they might have been the number one or number two student affairs program in the country at that time. And they were extremely welcoming of me. Now what? The other piece I didn't know that I wish I had was about what graduate assistantships were all about. And this might be buried in your question somewhere, but so I didn't initially know that that was a thing you have to plan for and apply for in advance and all that. So when I went to, I forget if it was a visit day or if it was like an orientation.

Lucas Langdon [00:06:42]: There just happened to be a vacancy in one. And so somebody had got a different role and moved on or something. And I, I got the assistantship and that paid for my room and board, my tuition, working for housing, not in a live in position the first year, but that was huge financially for me to be able to take a graduate assistantship which I knew nothing about, but to take this job that they told me would pay for all of this stuff and give me practical experience while I was doing the academic side of the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: And one thing I'll. I'll mention to you that that are listening about graduate assistantships is that not every program requires an assist assistantship. Sometimes they do. So like the program that Lucas is talking about. His program required that students had assistantships, and that's a part of the program. But there are other programs that that's not the case. There may be ones that are available that you can apply for, but you need to do your research into that. Some assistantships can be full time, some assistantships can be part time, and the benefits can vary vastly based on campus and what you're doing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:53]: So you do have to do that research to be able to look into that, to make sure you understand what it is, what you have to do to apply and what you have to do to be considered. But don't automatically assume that an assistantship is going to be waiting for you, because at the campus that you choose to go to, there may not be assistantships, but there may be scholarships or other opportunities too. So you think you choose to.

Lucas Langdon [00:08:13]: And those are the right questions to ask Chris, that I didn't know to ask, which is, are they the same timeline for application for both of them? Are they different timelines is like you said, is it? Everybody gets one if you get into the program. And as the market for graduate students in student affairs has shifted, some of those requirements have shifted. So at Florida State at the time, you weren't going to be probably a graduate assistant in a student affairs office if you weren't in the program for student affairs. But I know a lot of schools now, they need graduate students, and so they're a little less picky about which field you're studying while you're there. If you have the time to commit to the work of the assistantship, you might still be able to pull that off even if you're not going into higher education, which opens up a lot more opportunities for folks who might otherwise basically be looking at is there a teaching assistant job or a research assistant job? And that's really all that you used to be able to pick from. But now there's all kinds of offices. As the field of higher education manages financial difficulties for lots of reasons, the number of professional staff going down in some cases means they might be more willing to take on more graduate assistants do the work. So I would encourage anyone, if your life will fit a graduate assistantship role financially and experientially.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:26]: It's really a great opportunity now as any student moves into a graduate program. Actually, no, I want to ask another question first. Now, I also mentioned you're a current graduate student now, and I know that after a number of years of working, you decided to continue your education and you decided to work work on a PhD and you're working on that right now. So same question. Talk to me about that point in time. What made you decide that you wanted to take that step at that point in your career to go back to school after working for a While on a PhD and you, you ended up choosing to attend Eastern Michigan University? Same question. Why did you decide to attend Eastern University?

Lucas Langdon [00:10:08]: My PhD question has a lot to do with sort of the ceiling for advancement in my career. And so I've been in this program now for over 10 years. Like I'm going to have to file an extension to be able to graduate for a couple of reasons that sort of, you know, Covid and some things sort of delayed that. But I had mentors telling me, you got to get the PhD. You're working at a university that will pay for. I was working at Eastern as at the time, as a director of campus Life. So Eastern would pay the tuition part of the bill for that, which amounted to, I don't know, 20, $25,000 worth of an education that I didn't have to pay for doesn't mean it was free. I had to pay all kinds of fees that I'm not working there.

Lucas Langdon [00:10:45]: I obviously pay for the credits, but it was a huge chunk of financial burden that I didn't have because I worked there. So if you can get a job at the place where you want to study, that's often a tuition benefit comes along with that. So at the time, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do next, but I knew it would be a step up, hopefully in my career. And I was looking at vice presidents, student affairs jobs, or sociovi presidents, or in this case, assistant in a student's jobs. And I knew that to be competitive in the field, I was going to need to have that credential under my belt to be operating at a higher level of leadership at a higher education institution. The credential is important, especially on the academic side, to be able to be considered a colleague by academic peers, being able to say, yes, I've gone through the same academic, can we call it academic hazing that you've gone through. I've earned this. I know my stuff.

Lucas Langdon [00:11:32]: So all of those things, would I do it again? I don't know. It depends on what day you ask me and what part of the stress of the PhD program I'm in. But I had all of those mentors and sort of the career path telling me, you probably need to do this, so you might as well start now. And I'll also add that when I worked for five years at an institution in Kentucky, that they didn't have a PhD program, but they had an MBA program that I could have done for free twice in the time that I was there. I didn't think I was going to be there that long, but I liked it. And I ended up staying. And I regretted not taking advantage of that benefit of education. Could have just had that extra credential and that knowledge.

Lucas Langdon [00:12:06]: And so when I got to Eastern, they had the PhD program. And I thought, I can't make the same mistake twice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:12]: So true. And a lot of times when individuals are working at any type of company, one of the things that sometimes students don't look into is going to that HR office and saying, do you have an education benefit? It's always a great place to go and ask. It doesn't hurt to go in and just ask the question. They could say no, they could say yes. But always look at the fine print. Make sure you know what you're signing and make sure you know what the hooks are. Because sometimes there are hooks to the financial aspects to that as well. But it's always a possible financial possibility for you as a student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:50]: As you're thinking about graduate education now, Lucas, as you transitioned into your master's degree, into your doctorate degree, there are transitions that you go through. Now you went from undergrad into a graduate program, and there's a transition there because the way you're taught as an undergraduate student is different than the way you're taught in the expectations that faculty have of you as a master's student. But then going from work into a PhD student, again, different way, different way of being challenged, different way of looking at things. So think to those transitions. You were able to find success in your master's degree, you've been able to be successful in your PhD degree. And as you found success in graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program, and what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout the steps, throughout the program?

Lucas Langdon [00:13:56]: So start by saying, I don't think I transitioned particularly effectively or intentionally into a master's program, because again, I had no idea. To me, this just felt like, like the next year of college. But what I came to learn very quickly is that even more than undergraduate, the things that were going to be Important to my success were the peer network in my classes and the faculty relationships, which are important in undergrad, but even more so in the master's work. So that transition was initially maybe a little rocky. Again, I sort of picked up and moved to a different part of the country. So I knew no one there, knew nothing about this thing I had decided to jump into. But luckily, because I had that assistantship role on campus, that put me into a network of other graduates, graduate assistants who would be taking classes with me. And we're also having parallel sort of job experiences that, that could sort of bond us together as well.

Lucas Langdon [00:14:47]: And if you know anything about working in housing, you have a lot of weird things that happen when you're running residence halls. So could have got those things to bond over. And so creating that social network there, which I was a little slow to develop because I just didn't know how important it was going to be, that became monumentally important. And then also the people who are in your program with you and your faculty become your initial network professionally. So I always tell students, even the undergradu level, particularly your major faculty, that's your first network. And so they are the ones who know the field you want to enter. They're your first recommendations. More importantly, they are your first connections when it comes time to get a job.

Lucas Langdon [00:15:22]: And so those two things and then sort of the expectation, at least at that time at Florida State was if you're here, you are also participating in sort of a national level of professional development. Right. And so being involved in our national profession professional conference, my program hosted at the time a national professional conference. So we were sort of volun told we were going to be involved as volunteers at this thing and helping out, which turned out to be a remarkable experience. And I got to meet some of the scholars in my field who had come to this conference. Right. And so taking those opportunities, I think helped. Back to your transition question.

Lucas Langdon [00:15:56]: Helped transition mentally to oh, this is kind of professional. Like I'm not quite a professional yet, I'm a paraprofessional, but I have to start thinking like one. And so those kind of experiences help put you in the mindset of that and then the transition to the PhD. I will tell you, it is so much easier to be a student when all you're doing doing is be a student and maybe the graduate assistant or you know, a part time job on the side, but as a full time professional trying to take classes. Been out of the habit for a while too. Right. So that's another thing I would say to students, thinking about any of these transitions is when to do it is important. As I had been so far out of my master's program by the time that I started the PhD that I had forgotten how to student, my study skills, the ability to sit down and read academic materials.

Lucas Langdon [00:16:40]: Like I had to dust off all of those skill sets. The flip side of that is because I had waited a while. I have real world experience to draw knowledge from when I'm in those classes, having those discussions, so it meant more. And so when in my field, when students ask me, and I think this is really specific to higher education, but maybe some other fields ask me if they, when they should do these things, I would say wait a little while so you've got some professional experience. And then further, I get into this program, wait a while to see. Is this something you really need to get to the goal that you have? Because if it is, great. If it's not, it's a whole lot of investment in time and energy and tears and anxiety attacks and whatever else comes with, with doing. It's a big lift to do a PhD.

Lucas Langdon [00:17:23]: The coursework other than the research coursework, not terribly harder than master's work if you can work in groups and you can read and you can synthesize information, do a lit review here and there, those sorts of things. But when you get to the self directed research parts of that, it is a lot more than just writing papers as an English major in college. So that transition was, was a little rocky. I took too many classes at first, was trying to max out the amount of credits that I could take so I could get through it. And then maybe two semesters in, I realized, no, I have to do this one at a time. I just for me at that time, with everything in my life, I had to do just one class at a time. But I worked through it and checked them off one by one.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: Well, a lot of graduate students and individuals that are looking to be graduate students are balancing a lot of things. They may be working, they may have families, they may have other responsibilities, they're doing other things along with, with this. Talk to me about balance and what you had to do. And maybe it was more so balancing things at the PhD level than when you were a Master's student. But even now, as you have been a PhD student, what have you had to do to balance school, work, family, any other personal responsibilities while you've been trying to be a student as well?

Lucas Langdon [00:18:38]: Yeah. So great question. I don't really even think the concept of balance occurred to me in my master's program because it was my, my job and my. Yeah, everything all sort of bundled into one. And then my second year of the program, I moved from an assistantship that wasn't live in to a live in graduate hall director position. And so I was literally living where I worked and everything just kind of spilled over. Balance was probably awful, right? Like just in retrospect, there were probably no boundaries at all and I probably worked way more hours than I should have. But it also felt fine because I was young and I had the energy.

Lucas Langdon [00:19:09]: When you get later in life and you're doing the PhD, that balance is a little harder. And I think, like I said, sort of figuring out what I could take on each semester was an important realization that I had what my capacity was. I don't have kids, so I am amazed by folks who balance that in addition to. I sort of look at, in awe at those folks because that's. And there's a whole bunch of them in my program. Some of them finished before I did and did a great job of it. But when I was coming in, they'd sort of tell you, don't take a new job, don't get married, don't make any big life decisions that are going to add because. And of course you have to, right? Because life happens whether you want it to or not.

Lucas Langdon [00:19:45]: But they sort of warn you that balance is going to be a problem. What I didn't take into was when I got to the stage where I'm mostly self directed, right? Like that's the. One of the huge differences, I think, between undergrad and graduate work and definitely between Master's and PhD is the degree of autonomy you have to move yourself forward. And the lack of people sort of kicking you if you're, if you're behind you get a good chair and they're going to encourage you. But really it's your timeline. And so I maybe let the balance shift too far in the other direction for a while with that and have just maybe in the last year really decided, okay, I do need to sacrifice part of my weekend every week or every other week just has to be devoted to this so that I can finish this thing. And that's hard. Again, when you're used to, you have a workday that goes sometimes till 6, 7, 8 o' clock if you work in my field and then you go home and like the last thing I want to do is look at a computer screen and try to write right now.

Lucas Langdon [00:20:41]: But at some point you just have to suck it up and do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]: So as you think back to the opportunities that you've had both at the master's level, at the doctorate level, and as you think about this entirety of your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school and thinking about possibly taking that jump into becoming a graduate student themselves, what are some tips that you might offer them as they consider graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Lucas Langdon [00:21:10]: I mean, I'll briefly summarize some of the ones I've already mentioned, which are if you can find an assistantship, it's a great opportunity. Your faculty or your first network, make sure to get to know the folks in your cohort because they are also part of that network, but more importantly, they are going through it with you. So that your support system. It also helps to figure out which ones are bright enough to be in the groups when you got to do group work, because that is in most programs, probably a part of what you're going to have to do. And one of the things that luckily somebody did tell me early on, if you can, if there's something you're really passionate about in your field, anytime you get the choice of what you're going to study, do that thing and save all that research. And so I did that in my master's program. And so when I started my PhD, I didn't know exactly what my dissertation was going to be on, but I knew the area and I had, well, at that time you had printed copies of things. I had a big box of printed articles ready to go.

Lucas Langdon [00:22:00]: I needed to find some updated ones, but something to start me off. And so throughout the PhD program too, whenever I had the opportunity for my self directed work in a class to be what I wanted it to be, it was all moving towards the same focus topic so that I wasn't duplicating my efforts later on, if that makes sense. So anytime you can do that, think ahead to, to where you might need that. Save everything. If you know you're going to continue the education. Save everything. You never know what going to go back. Now when I get this one, I am done.

Lucas Langdon [00:22:29]: No more classes. So there'll be a big bonfire. But up until here, I've got everything that I've ever done academically in my graduate work and it has helped me tremendously. I think I already mentioned the faculty relationships, but I'll say that one again, just because some of the most interesting conversations I had in my master's program were with the faculty there. Most of them have retired now, obviously, because that was a long time ago. But I got to work with some of the minds that were leading my field. And so getting to know what your faculty's interests are, what their research is, if you can partner with them on that. For me, it ended up being helping at those conferences.

Lucas Langdon [00:23:02]: But if I was a graduate student, work in the sciences, there might be some really cool research you could get your hands on. Working with a faculty member. There might be something you get to publish with a faculty member in any number of fields. So don't sleep on that relationship. It can be really valuable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:15]: I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing all of these amazing tips with us today. And I wish you the best as you continue your own graduate education. And I know you're going to make it. You're going to get there, you're going to finish this up and get past what's called abd, everyone. Abd. You don't want to stay there when you're working on your doctorate. So he's working forward, he's going to get this done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:39]: And next time we talk to him, he's going to be Dr. Langdon. So, so soon to be Dr. Langdon. Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Lucas Langdon [00:23:53]: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:54]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Effective communication isn't just a buzzword; it's a core skill for success in graduate school and in life. In the latest Victors in Grad School episode, "Communicating Your Needs with Confidence," Dr. Christopher Lewis and Reilly Chabie tackle a challenge every grad student encounters: advocating for yourself and expressing what you truly need to thrive.

Reilly Chabie, a regular contributor, dives deep into why communication matters—not only academically but across every dimension of wellness. She introduces listeners to the "balancing act" every student faces, emphasizing the Eight Dimensions of Wellness (emotional, environmental, physical, etc.) and how imbalances can directly impact our ability to communicate effectively.

Stress, a common companion for grad students, gets special attention. Reilly details how physical, emotional, and cognitive symptoms of stress can interfere with clear communication—reminding us that a little stress is normal, but chronic stress can sow confusion and erode confidence. Knowing yourself and recognizing when stress is impacting your communication is the first step toward improvement.

The podcast unpacks common barriers to effective communication. From emotional dysregulation and lack of trust, to power dynamics, cultural differences, imposter syndrome, and assumptions, Reilly paints a honest picture of challenges students face daily. She references "The Four Horsemen" communication pitfalls (criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling), illustrating why learning new healthy habits is vital.

Listeners are guided through the spectrum of communication styles—passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive, and assertive. The goal? To build assertive communication skills that foster respectful dialogue and collaborative problem-solving. Reilly provides actionable tips: plan ahead, create the right environment for conversations, use "I" statements, pay attention to nonverbal cues, and actively listen—not just talk.

Perhaps most compelling is the discussion around boundaries. Setting and communicating personal limits is crucial to self-advocacy and maintaining healthy relationships in grad school.

If you're navigating group projects, research collaboration, or simply balancing multiple life roles, this episode is packed with insights and practical advice. Whether you're a new student or a seasoned grad, you'll find wisdom that applies beyond the classroom.

Ready to advocate for yourself and build confidence in your communication? Listen to this episode and start your journey toward more effective, fulfilling conversations—both in and outside grad school.

Looking for actionable communication resources? Don't miss this episode—you'll be glad you did!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: We have conversations with students, alumni and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello and welcome. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm Dr. Lewis, the director of graduate programs here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're here today because today we're going to be talking about a really important topic. We're going to be talking about about the importance of communicating and advocating for yourself. Because as a graduate student, you definitely have to be able to advocate for yourself and you gotta be able to talk to people and tell people what you need to be able to be successful in this graduate school journey that you're on. And today we got a great guest with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]: Riley Chaby is with us again. And I'm really excited to have Riley here today to talk about this really important topic with you. So I'm going to turn it over to her. Riley, thanks so much for being here today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:02]: Absolutely. Thank you so much for the introduction, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate it. And as Dr. Lewis mentioned, communicating your needs is a crucial part of not only being a graduate student, but also just kind of existing in the world. So I hope today's presentation is helpful in all contexts of your life. To kind of get started, we'll go over a brief overview as to what you can expect.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:26]: We're going to talk a little bit about something I like to call the Balancing act of just being a Graduate Student. That'll come up here shortly. I'm going to talk about why does communication matter? Just kind of brief things that are related to you as a graduate student, but also just why communication matters in the grand scheme of life. We're going to talk about some barriers that we might experience for effective communication. And then we're going to learn how to communicate with confidence, some tips, tricks, things to kind of consider in order to navigate these challenges. All right. It would not be a CAPS presentation if we didn't talk a little bit about the eight dimensions of wellness. If you've ever seen any of my presentations before, you have definitely seen me talk about these dimensions.

Reilly Chabie [00:02:18]: And interestingly enough, most of U of M Flint's Division of Student affairs programming focuses and aims to provide supports that relate to these eight dimensions of wellness, which interest. Interestingly enough, my conversation today does relate to the eight dimensions of wellness. So very briefly, the eight dimensions of wellness essentially creates a visual representation of all of the aspects that make us up as a person. So we all have. And kind of looking at the wheel on my screen Here we all have emotional connections, we have environmental connections, physical connections, so on and so forth. And all of these areas require our attention at any given point during our day to day functioning. That kind of leads into this balancing act that while you're functioning as a graduate student, you are absolutely trying to balance all of these dimensions in a way that makes you kind of feel fulfilled, makes you feel like you're achieving the things that you want to achieve, and ultimately you utilize these to kind of guide your everyday decisions. Now, a big part of this is that if any of these dimensions are feeling a little out of whack or we feel like we're not engaging in them as much as we would like to, that does disrupt our general functioning, which can very easily lead to a lot of different frustrations and truthfully plays a large role into why we struggle with communicating the things that we need.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:59]: Right. That I might not know that I'm physically hurting until I really think about it. It. And if I don't take care of that physical nature, I might be more irritable or you know, struggling in a particular area and having a hard time communicating that. So it's helpful to kind of put this into context with our communication patterns and this knowledge will kind of help us. What's the right word? It's going to help us identify what needs we actually have and really play into the types of communications that we need to provide. So kind of keep that in mind as we move forward here. I also want to touch a little bit on stress symptoms specifically, because if we're considering how the eight dimensions of wellness allow us to function, and when one of them isn't being focused on as much or is struggling in some context, we ultimately will experience some level of stre.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:03]: And the symptoms and kind of definitions on your screen here also help us to see when our communication is not being effective. Right. That if we're not communicating as deeply or as importantly as we'd like to be, we might experience chronic stress. So a brief definition of stress. This is our physical, emotional and cognitive reactions to certain demands, threats, or just changes in our daily routines. And I bet you anything as a graduate student, you have a lot of changes going on on your day to day experience. Whether you're in classes, going to work, studying, maybe taking care of kiddos, just trying to navigate all of these different roles, you absolutely are going to have differences and changes in your routine when these things happen, though, we might experience some level of stress. I think it's important to note that general levels of Stress or are actually pretty okay.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:05]: Stress can be a really big motivating factor in how we navigate the world and ultimately leads to kind of doing our best work. Sometimes that, you know, for example, if I was stressed about giving this presentation, I might work really hard to provide you the best material. Right. And make sure that I'm providing things that would be helpful for this. But the issue becomes when we experience these stress system, excuse me, symptoms intensely and chronically. So it's not just a here and there experience, but more so it's every day or every other day, or it's so intense that we feel like we can't function in a way that helps us navigate the world. So some of the things that you want to look out for are your physical symptoms. So those could be sleeping problems, muscle aches, headaches, frequent colds.

Reilly Chabie [00:07:02]: Our immune system is affected by our stress levels or increased heart rate. Emotionally, you might notice some anxiety, depression, loneliness, low self esteem. And then cognitively or kind of in our mind, we might experience memory concerns, worrying about things constantly, difficulties concentrating, and possibly poor judgment and impulse control. This one in particular will relate to our communication patterns in just a second. So just kind of keep that in mind as we move forward here. So with some of those stressors in mind, I think it's helpful to kind of consider how communication really plays into our experience and why it's important that we're experiencing these things. So communication is a fundamental component of relationship building. I mean, it's kind of the center of our universe, right? We have to communicate in order to navigate these things.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:07]: Having effective communication or working on your communication will reduce your overall stress, which relates to our previous slide, talking through some of those stressful things. Having effective communication will absolutely help your groups, people that you're communicating with, or just general organizations work more cohesively and lead to better productivity, which absolutely plays a role in your life as a graduate student. If you're doing group projects, doing research, working in a lab, whatever it might be, it also helps to build your confidence and it helps you advocate and it ultimately helps you build trust with the people that you're working with or engaging with in a way that really makes life feel more fulfilling. You know, the more that you practice your communication skills and the more you work toward identifying the things that you need to communicate, the easier it is, no matter what setting you're in. And then lastly, it does reduce levels of conflict, and I'm talking about conflict in all of the different areas of your life, whether that's in romantic Relationships, friendships, co worker relationships, anything like that. It prevents misunderstandings due to lack of clarity or miscommunications in some way. So if we're effectively communicating, we're absolutely moving in the right direction. Keep these things in mind as we navigate the skills that we're going to talk about later, because those skills are what we practice so that we can gain these effective communication skills.

Reilly Chabie [00:09:45]: Let's shift a little bit into communication barriers. Obviously, communication is not just a simple thing that we do every single day. In some ways it is. For example, I'm communicating with you right now, and this is relatively simple, but it's not always gonna look that way. And I think it's helpful to go through some of the barriers or things to kind of consider that might be affecting the way that we navigate these conversations. So I want you to take a moment and I'll briefly pause for you to think about this. I want you to think about what some of your barriers are to effective communication, because there's lots of them. There's no perfect list, but take a second and just kind of reflect on what barriers you foresee in your day to day.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:40]: Now, as you think about those things, I'm going to list off a few and talk through some of my thought process around struggles with communication. One big area of communication barriers is our emotional dysregulation. So take a second and think of a time when you were feeling really overwhelmed. Maybe you were experiencing stress, maybe something was really confusing to you and you started to feel really irritated. And maybe you were asking yourself, why am I even bothered by this? What's going on in my life where I'm feeling this frustrated? Right? Those things are starting to come up in your mind. This might lead to heightened emotional states. Maybe we're feeling extra angry or extra sad, or really struggling to kind of navigate this area of our life. And that type of emotional dysregulation absolutely makes it difficult to be clear, concise, and communicate effectively.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:42]: Sometimes we say things in the heat of the moment that we really don't mean, or we end up crying during a conversation and feel like we can't get a word out, or our anger is so hard that we prevent other people from adding to the conversation. All of these different things relate to emotions, dysregulation, and we want to kind of keep that in mind as we navigate these challenges. We're also going to want to consider our locations or spaces. There are definitely some places that are not conducive to a good conversation. For example, I'm not going to have a conversation about how my friend upset me the other day at a really loud concert. That doesn't really make any sense. So we're going to want to consider some of the best places to have these conversations and consider how that plays into the context of the conversation. Trust or distrust absolutely plays a role here.

Reilly Chabie [00:12:41]: That if you trust somebody, you're probably going to be more likely to be vulnerable and talk about things that are bothering you or advocate for your needs. If you're not so trusting or you're struggling to see how a person can be trustworthy, we might be more restricted in terms of what we want to talk about, which might lead to miscommunication, it might lead to resentment. A lot of detriments happen when we don't trust the people that we're talking to. So keep that in mind too. That effective communication works really well with people we trust. So that means we need to build trust by practicing communication skills. It's kind of a reciprocal relationship. We also want to consider some power dynamics here.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:27]: As a graduate student, you might be working with a boss or a professor or other people that maybe kind of are above you in terms of your hierarchy at your work or in school. And then you might also have your own employees or other people that you're maybe supervising, et cetera. We want to make sure that based on these power dynamics, we're effectively communicating without increasing that awareness of the power differential. That, yes, there's a reason that we have that power differential, but that can make things more or less uncomfortable. When trying to communicate something. It might be difficult to communicate to a professor about something, or it might be really easy to talk to a supervisee about something. So trying to navigate it based off of that, we also might want to consider cultural differences. Obviously, the way that I communicate is going to be much different than somebody in a different cultural background, maybe somebody who speaks a different language than I do.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:31]: We really want to have that be part of our lens when we're communicating. We don't want to be disruptive or assume that people are going to communicate the same way with us, especially based on those cultural differences. So being mindful of that or noticing how it might affect the receiving end of that, that me saying something to somebody might be misinterpreted based on those cultures. Cultural differences. Imposter syndrome also plays a role in this. And what I mean by imposter syndrome is it relates to our confidence or our feelings about whether or not we can communicate that perhaps we feel like we're not able to speak up because we feel like we don't know what we're talking about. Or we assume people are kind of viewing us in a way where we don't belong. So we end up not communicating concerns and kind of leading to some of those stressful symptoms.

Reilly Chabie [00:15:28]: So that absolutely can play a role. But the hope through this presentation is that we build some skills that can kind of change that aspect. Information overload is a big barrier to communication. Obviously, when we're taking in a lot of information, we have to process all of that. Like our brain has to work through that information and then that stimulus in order to figure out how to respond or figure out how that applies to our experience. So if there's a lot coming at us, for example, in a lecture or in another format, we might have a hard time synthesizing those thoughts and communicating in a way that's effective, that's clear. Or we just might be confused as to what we're talking about in the first place. So that can absolutely be a barrier.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:14]: And we kind of have to navigate that by seeking clarification or moving through it differently. Misunderstandings or miscommunications are a big piece to communication barriers. That is, if somebody is regularly misunderstanding you or you feel like there's been a miscommunication, a lot of that relates to clarity and conciseness. Or sometimes people feel like they have to kind of navigate these conversations in a filtered way where they're only taking bits and pieces of what you're saying and kind of misconstruing it. So misunderstandings are very, very common, but they absolutely can contribute to the difficulties here. And then the last one that I want to touch base on are assumptions. We can't assume that people know what we're talking about, right? We have to communicate things clearly. And even then, there still might be some difficulties.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:12]: So something that we want to consider here is that no matter how we're communicating or no matter what we think of other people or doing, doing something related to a conversation, we need to be prepared for any assumptions we might hold, and also the assumptions they might hold about us. And nobody can read your mind, right? So we don't want to assume that they're just going to get it right away or that without communicating that they're going to help you in the way that you need. So assumptions definitely play a role here. And once again, not an exhaustive list of barriers, but a really good overview of things that we might be experiencing. I also want to talk about a very unique type of communication barrier. So Gottman, both Julie and John, they're a married couple. They created a type of couples therapy that focuses on just communication. Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:10]: And one thing that I really loved about what they provided in this training for other therapists is something called the Four Horsemen. Now, I'm not talking about the four Horsemen of the apocalypse. I know that's really common, but I'm actually talking about the Four Horsemen in terms of communication patterns. Gottman noted that there are four types. There's criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Now, their work relates mostly with couples, but this can apply in a variety of contexts. So based off of what you see on your screen here, criticism, as the name implies, is criticizing one's character. You know, telling them that they're selfish doing, criticizing the things that they're doing, which is much different than setting a complaint.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:01]: There's contempt, which is that true level of disrespect where you're name calling with the ultimate goal of making a person feel worthless. There's defensiveness, which is a response to the criticism, where we feel wrongly accused so we might try to defend ourselves and only focus on that. And then there's stonewalling, which is a response to that very negative contempt where individuals will shut down, they will withdraw, they'll feel numb, and they just won't communicate at all. So these are also barriers to communication. And if we're experiencing any level of them, utilizing the skills we'll talk about later will kind of counteract that. But a big part of this is that it takes a lot of practice. Gottman notes that these barriers are kind of rooted in our previous experiences. So we kind of have to unlearn them and learn new things in order to navigate it.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:01]: So I thought I would bring that in because I think it's kind of an interesting message mix to some of the other barriers. And I feel like these represent a good combination of what couples or friends or other relationships might be experiencing. So other versions of communication barriers. So we've talked about all of the things that ultimately can keep us from communicating effectively. We've also talked about maybe some of the stressful experiences that might coincide with limited conversations or limited communication experiences. I think it's really helpful to consider what types of communications are we actually looking at here when thinking of communication. I'm thinking of four particular types of. And we're going to focus mostly on the verbal and nonverbal.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:04]: But these definitely apply to written and visual communication types as well. But verbal, obviously, is about spoken words, so that's what I'm communicating with you right now. We also have non verbal, which most people know as our body language, our facial expressions, and ultimately this nonverbal communication is what's supporting the verbal communication. So for example, all of my hand gestures perhaps are emphasizing the spoken words that I'm talking about here today. I'll also note another key part of nonverbal which relates to our communication skills are the concepts of our tone. So if we're, you know, having an attitude, for example, or talking maybe really angrily or really loud, that can kind of relate to how people receive our communication and it might also change the way we feel about that communication. So it's kind of a challenge there. Written communication includes emails, texts, social media posts and requires a bit of like that spelling and grammar consideration.

Reilly Chabie [00:22:20]: So as a grad student, I bet you anything you're sending lots of emails or texting out to groups or maybe posting on social media. And it matters how we communicate and our verbal and nonverbal play into this as well, especially if we're posting videos and those types of things. We also have visual communication, which is through like images, graphs or symbols. So if you've ever seen a presentation where they have like bar graphs or things like that, that plays into our communication as well because it's a way for us to interpret information. So like I said, we're going to focus mostly on the verbal and the nonverbal piece here. But these do apply to especially written communication, even though we might not be able to have non verbals apply to our written communication. So getting into kind of the nitty gritty of communication here. So thinking about our verbal communication and honestly our nonverbal as well, we want to look at the four styles of communication which as I was doing research for this, I felt like this was kind of interesting as I think sometimes we will kind of fall in all of these categories in some way, or maybe we're very much focused in one area as opposed to another.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:46]: It just kind of depends, right? So something that we want to kind of consider here are the passive aggressive, the combination which is the passive aggressive and the assertive communication styles. So starting with the left hand side with our passive communication styles, individuals who are passively communicating have a really hard time saying no. They're often apologetic, saying sorry for multiple things, kind of feeling more shy or inward. They struggle to speak up in a variety of contexts and are often agreeable even when something doesn't sit right with them. So they're very much kind of taking a backseat to conversations and navigating the world. And this is actually the type of communication where we are going to experience the most miscommunication errors. Simply because people who are passively communicating are often not sharing their feelings, they're not speaking up in these contexts. So we have to kind of consider that in this process here too.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:53]: Interestingly enough, passive communication styles relate heavily to our nonverbal communication. So they might be more than likely communicating in a way that is non verbal, Whether that's through hand gestures, maybe it's through their posture, maybe you're seeing limited eye contact, things like that. That's the type of passive communication that we might see from somebody in this style. Shifting gears into the aggressive side of things, this one is a stark difference to the passive communicator. Aggressive communicators have zero concerns about communicating their issues, their feelings, their thoughts, and all of the struggles that they have. In fact, they are likely to be loud, they have angry tones in terms of their nonverbal communication. They might have some intense eye contact, and they just genuinely don't care about what's going on around them. They tend to interrupt people.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:59]: They might have some intense eye contact, they might be insulting. Just very dominant in this area. This one can be challenging to navigate both from the communicator side of things, but also the person receiving. But a good thing to kind of keep in mind here is that when somebody is kind of being aggressive toward us in this communication style, we once again can use our communication style through calmness or through just kind of stability to kind of navigate that challenge. Shifting into the passive aggressive. This is a combination of the passive and the aggressive. As the name implies, what's distinct about this is that individuals in this category are passive outwardly, meaning they're going to be very agreeable. They're gonna kind of seem content on the outside.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:01]: They're not necessarily going to be fully communicating, but they might add bits and pieces there. So kind of level outwardly, but they have aggressive motivations when it comes to their actions, right? So, for example, somebody might outwardly be very agreeable, say, yep, that sounds like a good idea, but their actions say otherwise. When they start to maybe do things inappropriately per what was agreed upon, they often can be seen as manipulating the situations based off of this passive aggressive technique. And we kind of struggle with this one because this is the communication style that often uses sarcasm or the silent treatment, which can kind of elicit some really uncomfortable feelings for the person that's trying to communicate with them. So once again, A decent combination between the two, but we're going to notice some of those differences, especially in terms of their actions. And then lastly, the most ideal approach for communication is the assertive approach. So this creates a balance between being able to kind of express your thoughts in a take charge type of way, while also creating a very safe and non judgmental, balanced space for other people to add their thoughts and to feel like they are comfortable enough to do so. People with an assertive communication style often know what their limits are in terms of what they can take on.

Reilly Chabie [00:28:38]: They're always willing to kind of challenge themselves and navigate the world differently, but they absolutely will tell you no if they can't do something. However, they do this in a very respectful way. They understand that communication plays a large role in how a team navigates a problem or how relationships are developed. So they're really focused on creating a collaborative a space so that all people can be involved in the process. Once again, this is the ideal and sometimes we're going to practice really well in this area. Other times we might fall into some of the other categories. It just really depends on the situation and where we're at. So I think it's helpful to kind of take the communication styles here and see how you fit into that.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:26]: Do you notice yourself shifting between these areas or do you kind of find yourself within one? And if you're kind of outside the assertive zone, maybe thinking about ways that you can shift your communication approach so that you might relate more to the assertive style as opposed to the others. So just brief overview of the communication styles. So kind of keep that in mind as we look at our skills here. All right, so we have talked a lot about certain communication styles. We've talked about barriers, We've talked about the symptoms that we might experience or the struggles that might happen if we're not not communicating effectively. And I think it's helpful now to shift gears into how does that translate into our actual actions related to communication? Because once again, communication is more than just talking. It's about creating this space and this dynamic where a collaborative approach can kind of help navigate the issues at hand. So first and foremost, we're going to go ahead and start with identifying our needs.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:32]: If we go back to the previous slides about the eight dimensions of wellness, or perhaps talking a little bit about some of those barriers, those might be indicators as to the types of things that we need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]: Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:48]: So maybe a few examples of what we need might include asking for help on something, a common thing that I've Utilized, especially when I was a graduate student, was asking for extensions or extra support on an assignment. So that might be a need of yours. We might also think about a need for maybe support in terms of childcare. We might have needs. Regarding how we navigate a work stressor, lots of different needs kind of come up. And if you think about the eight dimensions of wellness and you notice that, like, let's say, for example, our financial stress is increasing, we might notice that we have needs within that area, such as financial counseling or figuring out how to make a budget that we're going to need to communicate and kind of effectively navigate. Once we've identified like a need, we might also look at explaining an issue that we're having as part of our needs, because it's not just simply asking for something, but it might be you're struggling to understand material, right? So you explain what you're struggling with, and that can be a need. Maybe you're explaining an issue between yourself and your partner, whether that's like a group partner or your spouse or somebody in your life.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:18]: Explaining an issue is just the same as identifying a need for help simply because you're able to open up about your emotional experiences. And that's an important part of building relationships, which, if we remember, is a positive thing to come from effective communication. We also might identify a need like addressing a limit. So when I'm talking about limits, I'm talking about if we've reached this kind of peak level of functioning in a particular area, that's a limit, right? So, for example, a limit that I hold might be that I do not play on my phone before I go to bed, up to like one hour before then, right? That's a limit for me that if I'm playing on my phone right before I go to sleep, I'm absolutely not going to be able to go to sleep as fast as I would like to. So addressing a limit is also a need. Now, when communicating to somebody about that, you are essentially using something called boundaries, which I will talk about in a little bit. But boundaries are our way of communicating those limits and kind of creating consequences on what happens if somebody exceeds that limit or pushes you past that limit. All right, so you've identified that need, right? You've identified the thing that you want to communicate.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:41]: A big tip here, once you've identified that thing, and I didn't necessarily put it in the slide, but it's very important, is that you plan ahead prior to this conversation. We don't want to jump into a conversation if even Though we've identified a need, we don't actually know what we're looking for. Right. So, for example, if I need help on an assignment that's pretty vague, what specifically do I need help on? What question on the worksheet, what criteria of the rubric, what style do I need to submit my references for? What does that look like? What is the specifics of that need and plan, how you want to communicate that, how you want to say that? Obviously, if we kind of have a bullet point list of maybe some of the points that we want to make, examples of why you have that need, that might be helpful for the person you communicating to, to better understand and get some context around why you're having that conversation in the first place. So planning ahead really helps here. Obviously, I know that that might not always happen, but it is helpful in this context if we can do that. We're also going to want to think about creating the right space to have these conversations. Like I said earlier, we want to make sure we have limited distractions.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:06]: Having a really emotionally vulnerable conversation with somebody is not going to fare well at a concert or if I'm in class listening to a lecture. Those things have distractions. They're not appropriate for certain things. Which. Speaking of, think of the context of the conversation. Am I going to have a conversation about how I'm concerned that. That my friend is maybe talking to another friend inappropriately in front of, you know, the audience here? Right. Like, would I talk to you about that? Probably not.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:53]: Even though it's an important conversation that needs to be had, I'm not going to be talking about it in the midst of my presentation here. So think of the context of the conversation and identify a space that works there. Part of creating that space as well is identifying who your audience is. Who are you talking to? It's going to be much different to be talking to a friend as compared to what it's like talking to a professor. There might be certain words or lingo or kind of funny things that you might add to a conversation with your friend that would not be appropriate for how you're communicating with your professor. I'm not necessarily going to tell a joke to my professor unless the context called for it. So we want to keep that in mind as we navigate creating that space. So once you've identified that need, maybe you planned ahead and then you've created that space where you figured out where and when and who you're talking to.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:54]: We want to communicate it. Right? So first and foremost, we are going to Build our confidence in communicating when we're coming from a place of confidence, right? That because I planned ahead, I'm ready to talk about my feelings, specifically, my experiences specifically. Which relates to the second bullet point here, which is using I statements. So I bet that I statements kind of feels a little nostalgic in a way that I remember kind of learning this in kindergarten. Like the I feel or I think or I have noticed this is really crucial to communicating your needs because we don't want to place blame on people. We don't want to indirectly accuse somebody of doing something when we don't have the full understanding of what's going on in the front first place. Right? So utilizing I statements and building confidence around practicing, like, I feel angry when this thing happens, or I have noticed that this thing has happened before and this is how it's made me feel. Right? The more we practice that and the more we kind of come in tune with our own feelings and thoughts, the more confidence we have.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:18]: And we're not talking about the actions of the other person. We're only focusing on our experience, which is really the only thing we have control over in that moment. We also want to keep an eye out when we're communicating these things using I statements. We want to keep an eye out for our nonverbal communication, right. That some things we want to keep in mind are, do we have good eye contact? Right. We're not directly staring into their soul, but we're also not averting our gaze when trying to talk about something important. Right. We want to have a little bit of that confidence, good posture, right.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:54]: With our shoulders square, a little bit back, as straight as it can be. We don't want to necessarily be hunched over or in other predicaments there. We also might want to limit crossing our arms or kind of creating an inadvertent barrier. Right? Because sometimes that can give off a sense of discomfort or you're blocking the conversation, those types of things. That. That might be kind of a comfort thing for some people, but if we avoid that, we're kind of moving toward showing with our body language that we're open to communication and ready to have what is called a conversation, as opposed to just. Just, I'm giving you this information and that's it. We also absolutely want to check our tone, right.

Reilly Chabie [00:39:45]: That we're not necessarily coming from an angry space or we don't want to be too quiet or too timid in that process. We want that tone to be stable and precise. We also definitely want to keep an eye out on our emotional levels. Right? So let's say you start a conversation keeping all of these things in mind. You're talking about your I feels, your I thinks, explaining the situation. But as the conversation is going on, you're getting too heated, right? You're maybe getting more frustrated. You're maybe not necessarily thinking about what the other person is saying, but more so thinking about what you're going to say next in response or how are you going to defend yourself. That's a great indicator that you might need to take a step back, acknowledge that that conversation is not going to go as well as we would like it to.

Reilly Chabie [00:40:37]: It might not be as effective because our thinking and our thought patterns are going to be affected by that. We're not going to think as clearly. So it is okay to note like, whoa, I'm feeling a little overheated here. I'm actually going to take a five minute break. Let's come back to this conversation in a second. That may sound weird, but that's actually really effective in helping people not only process information, but also to reduce a lot of that emotional dysregulation which we talked about earlier when considering emotional barriers or, excuse me, communication barriers. And then the last piece that I want to consider here is, yes, communication and the way that you are saying something through your verbal and nonverbal communication is very crucial to communicating your needs. But the other part of this that is just as important is your active listening skills, right? It's not like you're just talking to a wall and you're expressing something to that wall and then it's left there, right? People that you're talking to are going to respond, they're going to have feelings, they're going to be practicing these skills just like you are.

Reilly Chabie [00:41:45]: Right? So we want to engage in our active listening skills. And what I mean by active listening is we need to pause and really take in the information that they're giving us. That if they say I feel sad or I feel embarrassed or some variation of that, we absolutely want to take that in and use that as an opportunity to reflect for them. Right? So if I say to you I feel angry when you don't let me know that you're coming home late from work. So if I express that to you, that's your opportunity to reflect back, saying, oh, when I don't communicate to you that I'm coming home late, that makes you angry and maybe makes you feel worried about me. Right. That's kind of a summary or a reflection of what I just said that tells me that you're listening and that you've actually noticed the specifics of what I've told you. Right? And it gives you both a chance to really process and kind of get that critical thinking and problem solving part of your brain running.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:51]: So just as much as communicating your needs is important, listening to the experiences of others really makes for that reciprocal and mutual conversation to go the way that you want it to. So we have a couple more slides left, and with some of those communication skills in mind, things that you want to consider. I wanted to circle back to the boundaries piece, which is a specific type of communication that can be used in any setting, even outside of being a grad student. I actually used this image in one of my previous presentations because I think it's helpful to note that boundaries are very similar to those eight dimensions of wellness where we're identifying boundaries. Within these different areas, you might have some emotional boundaries, maybe some conversational boundaries, like perhaps you don't want to talk about certain topics or with a particular person, you're not willing or are willing to communicate certain feelings, maybe some physical boundaries, etc. These are just as important to maintaining our confidence with needs, right? Because there are going to be instances where we've met those limits and this is what we need to communicate. Maybe we didn't have these effective conversations previously before we've met that limit, but now's the time to do so. And practicing this skill helps us kind of build confidence in what we're feeling, and it also helps us kind of establish our own identity and how we want to navigate our world.

Reilly Chabie [00:44:27]: Right? Because these boundaries are based off of your values, the things that you care about, and communicating them lets people know what you do care about and the things that you want to do in order to maintain that connection. So as we wrap up here, I just want to offer a couple of things that might be helpful in your journey with communication in winter 2026. So starting sometime in January, I will be hosting again our Healing Heart Circle, which is a relationship support group where we do talk about more in depth. Some of these considerations I also have here our CAPS Instagram page. This is really helpful just for general material on mental health, and feel free to let us know if there's some communication things you want to see through reels or other postings. So feel free to check that out. And with that, that's all that I have for you today on communicating your needs with confidence. Feel free to scan this QR code to let me know how I did, or if there was any material that maybe you wanted me to discuss.

Reilly Chabie [00:45:29]: And I can have that for next time. Thank you so much, everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:32]: Thanks, Riley. Really appreciate you sharing all of this today. We have recorded it so we will make sure that it goes live and is shared with everyone because we want everyone to have an opportunity to be able to learn and grow and work on those communication skills, to be able to, as I said at the beginning, better advocate for themselves. But this has been amazing. Riley, thank you so much for sharing this today, for being here, and for sharing all this amazing, all these amazing resources. And I look forward to having you back again very soon.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:09]: All right, thank you so much, Dr. Lewis. Bye everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:12]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Graduate school is a journey often described as a juggling act, and for good reason. In the recent episode "Juggling & Balancing – How to Multitask and Stabilize in Grad School" of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Matthew Oxie delve into what it really takes to find success amidst the constant pull of academic, personal, and professional responsibilities.

Understanding Grad School Stress

Dr. Lewis opens the conversation by normalizing the stress that comes with graduate school. As he puts it, "There is a lot that you are going to be tossing in the air… Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. And that's okay as long as you learn along the way." This sets a compassionate tone for exploring the sources of grad school stress—ranging from academic pressure and family obligations to financial concerns and planning for life after graduation.

Matthew Oxie, a licensed counselor with CAPS at UM-Flint, provides further insight, citing research that graduate students are two to six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression than their undergraduate peers. Stressors like career planning, clinical rotations, commuting, and social obligations all play a role, often overlapping and compounding each other.

The Eight Dimensions of Wellness

A major highlight from the episode is the discussion of the Eight Dimensions of Wellness, which include physical, emotional, environmental, financial, occupational, social, intellectual, and spiritual health. Matthew encourages listeners to use these as both a diagnostic tool and a growth map—reminding us that thriving in one area can help offset struggles in another.

Self-Care vs. Self-Soothing: What's the Difference?

Perhaps the most impactful segment is Matthew's exploration of self-care versus self-soothing. He stresses that while activities like watching Netflix or having a treat are important for unwinding, true self-care is intentional and structured—it's about setting boundaries, routines, and practicing deliberate actions that nourish long-term wellbeing.

Strategies That Work

The episode wraps up with practical advice: prioritize tasks, intentionally schedule downtime, set boundaries (like keeping work email off your phone), and leverage campus resources such as the rec center or counseling services. Matthew and Dr. Lewis also encourage graduate students—no matter if they're on-campus or online—to "get involved" in community and social activities.

If you're feeling the weight of multiple responsibilities or struggling with balance in grad school, this episode is a must-listen. You'll come away with not just empathy for your situation, but tangible strategies for thriving—one step, and one intentional action, at a time.

Ready to find your balance and become a victor in graduate school? Listen to the full episode for more insights and encouragement!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Thanks so much for being here today. I am Dr. Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you here today. And as always, you know, I am excited that we're going to be talking about a really important topic because as you go through graduate school, you definitely are going to be doing a lot of juggling. There is a lot of things that you are going to be tossing in the air and you're going to be trying to keep going. And balancing all of that as you're going through graduate school is something that all of us that have gone through graduate school before have had to work through. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: And that's okay as long as you learn along the way. And today we've got Matthew Oxy with us. And Matthew is one of our counselors in our CAPS office. And I love our partnership with CAPS because we always talk about amazing topics that will help all of us to be able to learn something a little bit new. So I'm going to turn it over to him to walk us through and talk to us about this important topic. Thanks Matt.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:19]: Excellent. Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me again, Dr. Lewis.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:22]: Hello.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:22]: Like Dr. Lewis said, my name is Matthew Oxie. I'm a licensed professional counselor with the Counseling and Psychological Services, the CAPS department here at U of M Flint. I do. Like I said, how does that make you feel? Therapy oftentimes Today we are going to talk about how to multitask and stabilize while in graduate school through effective self care strategies, time management tactics and ways you can get involved both on campus and within your own communities to help promote your own well being. So a couple disclaimers beforehand. This is not going to be direct therapeutic advice. I advise if this is something you're seeking, you can either find services at caps, which we'll talk about here soon, or services within a community, or you're already connected.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:09]: But just as a little word of advice. This is not like formal therapeutic advice. The next thing this lecture may not be a full hour. I am, I like public speaking. I'm very good at it. But I'm also kind of a fast talker. So if you guys have any questions, feel free to shout them out in the chat and I will get to them. Dr.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:26]: Lewis, you as well, if you have anything, please let me know. But I guess before we really get started, I want to start with something kind of controversial guys might not be aware of this.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:38]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:39]: Grad school can be stressful. Shocking, I know, but it's important to recognize this before we get too deep into the nitty gritty of what we want to talk about with multitasking here. So the types of stressors graduate students face. I've got my speaker notes down here, so it looks like I'm not looking at the screen. I've got my speaker notes down here. I'm not checking my phone or anything like that. So correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Lewis, but University of Michigan Flint currently offers over 30 graduate programs.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:10]: Actually, I was going to say over 50. Over 50.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:13]: Wow.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:14]: I was looking at the. The course selector. Not the course selector like the major selection thing, like the academic programs. I only counted about 35. So you got over 50, we've got over 50. So that furthers the point that across the University of Michigan Flint campus, graduate students are a significant portion of our university's makeup. Right. So this is something that's important to talk about.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:38]: Obviously, if you're listening to this, you're likely a graduate student at U of M Flint. So you understand that now common sources of graduate student stress. Graduate student student stress. Someday I'll be able to get that combination of words out of my mouth. Now, there is actually an index for this. There is the Graduate Stress Inventory. It was made in the mid-90s and it's been revised over the decades. And it asks a series of questions related to environmental, academic, and then family and monetary stressors as well.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:10]: And you can see those are listed here. Academic stress, family issues, interpersonal relationships and financial stress. Additionally, though a little bit more specific to graduate school or I guess in addition to the gsi, we have career, right? Career placement, career planning. What are we going to do after graduate school as well as research and teaching. I know it is a very important part of some programs that you write a thesis, for example, or you have teaching experience or you're expected to teach or run a class or a lab.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:47]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:47]: Just depends on what you're studying. There are other problems that are more broad that can amplify some of these stressors, Other concerns that might be totally unrelated to graduate school, but can make it harder to get through poor physical health or disabilities. If we talk about something like a physical disability, chronic pain, and even sometimes increased fatigue, all of these things can, as we've said, amplify the stress of what is above mental and emotional struggles.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:22]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:23]: Preexisting mental health struggles or mental health diagnoses. Or mental health struggles and diagnoses that crop up as a result of graduate school. We'll talk about that here on the next slide. So I don't want to get too, too much into the mental and emotional stuff right this second. Sleep can amplify issues. How many of us don't get enough sleep in graduate school? I'm sure quite a few of us.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:47]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:05:47]: That constant, seemingly chronic exhaustion can lead to again, further feelings of stress and then finally age. This one, while Empirical is also a little more anecdotal. Age can play a role in increasing the potency of some of these stressors.

Matthew Oxie [00:06:06]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:06:06]: I want you to think about it. Older students are more likely to be a little bit more established. What I mean by that is you probably already have a family, you already have a career you might be juggling, and you might have yourself embedded in other parts of your communities, for example, on top of graduate school. Whereas someone coming right out of undergrad may not have those exact same stressors right now. Moving on to our next slide here we've got the what now? Let's talk about the how how stress affects graduate student. So before we really get into this, there is a plethora of research on graduate student stress. However, given that's not the topic of the presentation, I'm just going to give you some of the highlights and I promise the rest of the presentation is just a little bit more uplifting than this right here. So graduate students report higher rates of stress than undergraduate students.

Matthew Oxie [00:07:10]: The 2013 study by Wyatt and Oswald showed that while undergraduate students show significantly higher rates of mental illness, graduate students report higher rates of stress. This stress comes from many of the aforementioned stressors that we just talked about, right? There are a lot of expectations put on graduate students. Graduate students are six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression. And those who experience anxiety and depression also report a poor work life balance. Now, I know that sounds contradictory to the last point. This study done in 2018 found that graduate students are two to six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression during grad school, right? This can lead to that increased anxiety or decreased work life balance. My words are all over the place today. I do sincerely apologize.

Matthew Oxie [00:08:07]: So despite grad or undergraduate students reporting higher rates of mental health struggles, graduate students are still more likely to experience those mental health struggles as well throughout their time. And finally, many multicultural elements play a role in some of the stress as well. Everything is multicultural. When we look at some of these elements, we find that graduate students who face particularly racial discrimination and Financial distress have higher rates of anxiety and depression during graduate school. These findings persist with racial discrimination and financial stress. These findings persistent even when students have strong familial and social support. So if faced with racial injustice or heavy financial pressure, regardless of a social or familial support network, you'll still see some of these issues crop up. Additionally, students who reported as LGBTQ had higher odds of anxiety and depression on an individual level.

Matthew Oxie [00:09:20]: And students who reported financial distress were way more prone, particularly to anxiety. In this study done in 2021, financial stress was a large indicator of anxiety. So we've done the fun part. I think I have another bullet point there. Women and international students tend to show heightened distress in graduate school as well. We've done the super fun part. We have established that graduate school is stressful. We know what stresses students out.

Matthew Oxie [00:09:53]: We know how that, how that stress affects you guys on both the macro and the micro level. However, like I said, identifying stress is not the goal of this lecture. It's the foundation for what we kind of want to talk about here, right? The goal is to learn and discuss ways to balance graduate school with everything else. Now, graduate students have kind of a full plate. Again, I'm just full of shocking statements for you guys today. You guys probably did not know that before I said that as graduate students, I have a lot on your plates. What we have examples here on this slide, right? Some examples of things that are or make you make us busy as graduate students. Coursework and exams.

Matthew Oxie [00:10:44]: I know some graduate programs have exams multiple times a week for multiple weeks in a row. Some graduate programs here on campus even condense. And their hell weeks, for example, are even more jam packed with exams because instead of the full 16 weeks, it drops to like a 10 week, 12 week program, right? There's teaching and there's researching, as we mentioned. Sometimes there is an expectation that you run your own class or there's an expectation that you're doing research for your thesis, for your final report. Clinical rotations behind me, you can't see it particularly well through the windows, but I'm across the river from the white building and most of the programs in there, pa, pt, nursing, all require some degree of clinical rotations, some of which are not particularly close to home. Full or part time jobs, whether you have a 20 hour a week, you know, kind of like flash money job that you do working at a coffee shop, or if you're like my colleague Riley, who is currently enrolled in our social work program here at U of M Flint and is also Working as a CAPS counselor, full time work can be stressful. Your occupation can add a lot of things for you to do. We talk about expectations.

Matthew Oxie [00:12:00]: It's a. It's a whole nother slew of things. Family obligations. This can look a million different ways. This can look like raising children, supporting a partner, supporting your parents if they're older, or navigating life with a chosen family, for example. Family obligations are persistent. Commutes. I feel like this one isn't really talked about as much.

Matthew Oxie [00:12:23]: Some students, I mean, U of M Flint is a commuter school. I know we have on campus residencies and we offer quite a few remote programs and remote classes. But at its core, U of M Flint has always been a commuter school. And sometimes those commutes really can add up. Like I said, whether you're going to class or going to a clinical rotation, that's an hour away. If you live here on campus and your clinical rotation is in Ann Arbor, down at Michigan Medicine, that's a two hour round trip commute you have to take every day, potentially longer. And while the commute itself might not be particularly difficult, US23 is not a very hard drive. It does take away a lot of time.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:05]: And it makes some of these other things like researching and managing your family and managing your coursework more difficult because that time you have to do it is now even less because you have to spend two hours on the road, for example. And then finally clubs, professional organizations, or governing bodies within your cohort.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:24]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:24]: I know some programs have like a class president, for example. And then you may be. I believe when I was in graduate school, I was in, I think it was called Chi Sigma iota. It was the professional fraternity for counselors. I believe so. And I was on the board of that. I believe I was the secretary treasurer. It was one of the things.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:45]: It was a long time ago. I apologize for not fully remembering. But all of these things are examples of what the average graduate student might be faced with. What do we notice about the examples that were laid out? They look nearly identical to the things that caused us that kind of stress. I know, that's kind of obvious, right? When we talk about things being on our plate, they often correlate to being stressful.

Matthew Oxie [00:14:15]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:14:18]: Graduate students are faced with many, if not all of these challenges at the exact same time throughout their programs. I have talked a little bit now about the kind of obvious stressful balancing act that is graduate school. So let's get into the actual meat and potatoes of the lecture. Let's discuss ways to Juggle all of these things, balance all these things, prioritize and manage everything we have here and potentially more while keeping our heads above water. The eight dimensions of Wellness. If you have been a student at U of M Flint for any period of time, I am sure you are familiar with this image. The eight dimensions of wellness are something that university health and well being. University health and wellness uhs, they are.

Matthew Oxie [00:15:13]: They're very big on the eight dimensions of wellness and for good reason. Honestly, these dimensions, they can help us from a practical sense, the eight dimensions of wellness can help us categorize some of our concerns and help us recognize where we can grow and also really where we're thriving. They don't just have to be about, oh, what am I lacking? We can look at these eight dimensions and go, okay, I'm secure in these areas. And that can help again further that wellness and foundation. I very briefly want to discuss each of them because I know sometimes these are not discussed, they're just sort of slapped right on the page and you're just expected to be like, oh yeah, it's intuitive, it makes sense and in a lot of ways it is. So this is information from both, I believe, University of Michigan and for the life of me, I can't remember the other website, but you'll see it in the references. What other university I got this information from. So just going to go, start at the top, going to go clockwise here.

Matthew Oxie [00:16:13]: Physical. It's the ability to maintain quality of life that helps you get through the activities of the day with ease. Emotional awareness. These are an awareness of, of thoughts and feelings and responses to daily interactions and events. Environmental wellness is our respect for ourselves, our respect for our community, and a respect for our environment and its surroundings. Right? This can be a love of nature, a love of keeping our cities clean, for example, like really caring about the quality of our environments that we are in all the time. Financial wellness, knowing how to manage expenses and your relationship with money. This can get difficult in graduate school.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:00]: Sometimes we have to work a lot. Sometimes graduate school, not even sometimes. A lot of times graduate school is very expensive. And trying to manage living life as a regular adult, quote unquote, and having to pay for graduate school can be very stressful. Occupational wellness, the work you do and how it fulfills you.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:25]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:27]: If you're in this point in your academic career, I would hope you're doing something that you love. I love therapy. I went to Graduate school of Central Michigan, Master's degree in clinical mental health counseling. I love it. I would do Therapy for free. I would do it a lot less often, but I would do it for free. I love this job. I think I will do it for the next several decades.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:49]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:17:50]: When we think about occupational wellness, we think about the meaning and the fulfillment we get from what we choose to do with our careers. Social wellness. This is defining and connecting with individuals, groups and communities as a whole. Social wellness. I mean humans are social creatures. Enough said.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:10]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:11]: Intellectual wellness. This is feeling stimulated and engaged with learning opportunities both within and outside of school. There are many ways that we can still learn in a non academic sense. Intellectual wellness kind of pushes us to further that. And finally, spiritual wellness. Spiritual wellness is your understanding of place and purpose and how you make meaning of who you are and what happens to you. Spiritual wellness can be understood in many, many different ways. Again, it changes person to person.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:43]: But now we have our def. Our eight definitions of the eight dimensions of wellness. And I want you to keep these in mind throughout the rest of this presentation and think about ways you can apply what you already do as well as what we will talk about here in a bit to these dimensions.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:01]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:19:01]: This isn't necessarily a strict homework assignment, just more of a thought experiment. Self care versus Self soothing. Part of me wants to apologize in advance. This is my soapbox. This is the thing I love talking about. But part of me also doesn't want to because I think it's great information that you guys all can have and share around as you please. So Self care versus Self soothing. Self care.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:31]: This is, like I said, one of my favorite topics. This will serve as the foundation going forward for the rest of our time together.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:39]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:19:39]: I've got a few more slides after this, but this warrants enough that we want to talk about this quite a bit, right? I want to take some time to lay it out for you. You have probably heard of the importance of self care, right? Everyone's heard of the importance of self care. Whether it is a paper, an article, a journal, a review about the importance of self care and well being, or self care and stress reduction. Whether it's scholarly and academic, or if it's a 20 second TikTok video raving about the importance of taking time for you, regardless of where you've heard it from, they are correct. Self care is a crucial part of balancing responsibilities in graduate school and beyond. Because if you are a graduate student mid-20s, you still got like 70 years left after graduate school is over. So we manage self care now. This can carry us for a very long time.

Matthew Oxie [00:20:42]: Here's where I get on my soapbox though. However, our definition of self care might be a little off. Now, our knee jerk reaction when we think of self care is what?

Matthew Oxie [00:20:53]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:20:55]: Watching Netflix, maybe taking a nice bath, Finding a little sweet treat like self care, right? I'm doing this for me. This is self care. These are all fantastic ways to unwind. They're not self care, right? These activities can be better defined as self soothing. Now if you look at the column on the left under self soothing, they can be defined as activities that help soothe a person during a stressful time. These are, I'm sure if you guys, you know, wanted to, you could think of half a dozen ways that you guys self soothe on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, right? This is something that helps you regulate yourself. This helps regulate our stress levels. One of the keys with self soothing is they're easily accessible and sometimes well established.

Matthew Oxie [00:21:48]: You don't really have to do anything new or difficult to load up Netflix or to load up a video game or to go on a walk, right? A lot of these self soothing activities don't take a whole lot of effort. And even if you want to try something new, right? These self soothing activities, for example, it makes it sound so formal. These ways that we relax and unwind self so soothing, right? They can be learned and practiced even in busy times. You know, there's something like, like cooking, for example, can be, there can be soothing for some people. Working on new recipes, reading new books, playing new games, watching new shows, right? These can be examples of how easy self soothing can be. And that's part of the beauty of it. It doesn't take a very big barrier to entry. However, self soothing, if overused, can be deleterious to our health and well being in graduate school and beyond.

Matthew Oxie [00:22:50]: So self soothing, while absolutely necessary to our overall well being, like I said, can have some negative effects. I want you to think about a scenario for me. You are very stressed and you say, you know what? I've had a long day. I'm going to watch Netflix for 48 straight hours, right? I'm doing it in the name of self care for, for self care sake. I'm going to watch Netflix for 48 straight hours. What do we think happens? What do you think happens when we watch Netflix for 48 straight hours? For starters, you probably haven't eaten much, probably haven't showered at all. You probably haven't slept very much. You probably haven't gone to the bathroom very much.

Matthew Oxie [00:23:35]: So on the most basic physiological level, probably not doing great, your eyes probably hurt. Probably feeling a little atrophied from sitting on the couch or the bed all day long. What's more than that, right? On top of that, you've probably missed a class or two, you've possibly missed work, and you've likely neglected other social and familial responsibilities in the name of self care, right? Your pets didn't get fed, your kids didn't get picked up from school. Your professor was never informed about why you didn't go to a lecture. Your manager never found out why you didn't go to work. So now you have a no call, no show, right? I will admit that the example of watching Netflix for 48 straight hours is just a little bit hyperbolic. I get it, right? However, I bring it up because it does a good job of showcasing what Mistaking self soothing how mistaking self soothing for self care can be harmful, right? Is doing something like watching Netflix inherently harmful? No, of course not. There are great shows on Netflix and Hulu, or if you're a sports fan, like so NFL Sunday Ticket, for example, or March Madness Basketball.

Matthew Oxie [00:24:59]: These are all totally fine ways to soothe, but it it highlights that if overused, they can hurt us, right? All of that said, what is self care? I like to think of self care as the framework for proper self soothing.

Matthew Oxie [00:25:16]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:25:17]: One of the key differences between self care and self soothing, the way I like to define it, is that self care is intentional. What do I mean by that? I say intentional because true self care is thought out and implemented with a goal in mind, right? So we look on the other column here of this, of this presentation. Self care is comprised of intentional practices, routines and structures which are developed over time to better facilitate well being in however way we feel it necessary. Self care involves establishing boundaries with yourself and others to create a healthy environment for you to work in. I will use an example of this from my own personal and professional life. I don't have my email on my phone. Don't have my work email on my phone. I know many people, colleagues, even my partner, are stressed out of the fact that I don't have my email on my phone.

Matthew Oxie [00:26:20]: But it's a boundary I have set over the years because despite working a job that at any given moment duty could call and we would have to see to a crisis. Nothing so serious is going to come up that I'm not going to get a phone call or a text message. And honestly, when 5 o' clock comes around, I don't want to think about work afterwards. I care about my clients, but I don't want to have that stress following me. An example of a boundary to keep that is to keep email off of my phone, my work email off of my phone, right? These can be far more difficult to implement on the fly. If you guys have something for example, like your work email or your school email on your phone and I told you to delete it, would that work? Would that make you feel comfortable? Probably not, right? Not if you've been used to using it for a couple of months or even a couple of years, depending on what program you're in. Intentional self care takes deliberate practice. Intentional self care can be started small and it takes practice.

Matthew Oxie [00:27:31]: We'll talk about it here very soon, but I'm going to give you an example of what intentional self care can look like. I've written out a little scenario here, so follow me as best you can. Let's say you've had a stressful week of exams, work and research. You had two exams on Wednesday. You had one exams on third, one exam on Thursday. You had three eight hour work days throughout the week, and the first draft of your thesis was due by Friday morning. The weekend comes around and for the first time all semester long you don't have anything going on. There are no exams on Monday, there are no readings to do and there are no articles to examine.

Matthew Oxie [00:28:15]: There's no shifts to clock in for. There's nothing. You truly have nothing to do in the following week. And you decide, you know what? I think I'm gonna watch Netflix all weekend long. Just like our friend who watched it for 48 straight hours. I'm gonna watch Netflix all weekend long. An example of the intentional approach with self care in this case involves setting boundaries and establishing some of some time management, right? You've already done the hard work of clearing your schedule. You've already done the hard work.

Matthew Oxie [00:28:49]: You've done the exams, you've done the paper, you've done the work. Like the actual physical going into work, you've done the hard part. And you've said in advance, my plan for the weekend is to do nothing. You have laid that out even as early as Monday, maybe even the weekend prior this upcoming weekend. I'm not doing a darn thing. I'm going to watch Netflix all weekend long. So there are no major external expectations, expectations at this point that exist for us to neglect, right? We've already established it with ourselves. We've set that boundary.

Matthew Oxie [00:29:24]: Now your plan with this whole weekend, you're gonna wake up, take a shower on Saturday morning, have a coffee, have a yogurt, feed your cats, and then prepare to get comfy on the couch or the bed for the next like several hours.

Matthew Oxie [00:29:38]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:29:39]: Maybe you're a Lord of the Rings person. You want to watch all the extended editions of Lord of the Rings. That's a very long time commitment. That's a whole weekend's worth of content right there. But you, you're, you're settled in, you're dug in. You allow yourself to pause when needed, pause your movie, pause your show, pause your game to use the bathroom, find a little bit of lunch, prep some dinner, care for your animals as needed.

Matthew Oxie [00:30:04]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:30:05]: And I'll, I'll add another example. We talked about cooking as a self soothing method. You make something simple and healthy on Saturday. You make something simple and healthy, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort filling you like it. And you're doing that because you told yourself you're going to order food on Sunday. You know, thinking about the financial dimension of wellness, you want to order from doordash, but doordash can be expensive. Yeah, we'll do it one day. You know, we'll plan, we'll plan our finances around it, we'll plan our meal around it, and that'll be our game plan.

Matthew Oxie [00:30:36]: We'll eat a little dinner on Saturday and then order something on Sunday. On Sunday evening, take a little bit of time after dinner to prep for the week ahead. Get your clothes ready, get your coffee maker ready for Monday morning, get your laptop ready, put it by the door, get ready to go. And you set yourself a bedtime so you can get to sleep by Monday. I know that one sounds a little corny for adults, right? Set yourself a bedtime. What are you, seven years old? Set yourself a bedtime. That's part of that intentional timekeeping and that intentional boundary you're setting. I'm not going to stay up till 3 o' clock in the morning watching shows, playing games, watching movies.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:13]: I have things to do in the morning.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:15]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:17]: If you're thinking to yourself throughout this whole scenario, didn't you just say watching Netflix for 48 straight hours is bad?

Matthew Oxie [00:31:28]: It.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:28]: You're, you're correct. I did use that example, that rather hyperbolic example to showcase how watching Netflix for 48 hours can be deleterious to your well being as a student. However, I want you to think about the differences between these two scenarios. The first served a good purpose. It, it served. It had good intentions at, at first, but quickly devolved into neglect of our well being.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:00]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:01]: If we got so overwhelmed throughout the week that we decided we're just going to turn ourselves off for the next 48 hours. In a way we can appreciate it.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:12]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:12]: We're taking time to reset, but if overdone, it causes harm. The second scenario on the other hand, showed how intentionally planning to do something like that. You know, intentionally planning that weekend. We've set our boundaries, we're keeping time limits and we've allowed for nearly two whole days of self soothing activities.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:39]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:40]: How these intentional pieces can allow for this extended self soothing while also setting us up for success for a potentially stressful week.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:49]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:52]: It sounds similar in practice. It is very different. I know self care can be hard. I know implementing these things can be hard. Especially when we have our routines that work so well. There are so many external pressures. It's like you have to focus on me. You have to focus on me right now.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:09]: You can't look at anything else. You have to pay attention to me right now.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:13]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:33:15]: And at times it's very easy to feel like we are drowning under these expectations. There are so many at once. It feels like we are drowning under these expectations. I encourage you guys to take a screenshot of this. I'll send these slides to Dr. Lewis later as well. In addition to the recording, I'll have some other links that go in there too. We'll talk about here in a little bit.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:36]: I encourage you guys to practice self care. Practice it over and over and over again. It might take a few times to get right. You might find that trying to prep the night before to make your morning a little less stressful doesn't help you at all. You might find that removing email off of your phone, it makes it so much worse. Makes your day so much more stressful than it needs to be. Not being able to check your email, right? Practice. This is different person to person.

Matthew Oxie [00:34:07]: Practice being intentional with your time, with your boundaries. Practice being intentional. Intentionality is the key for true self care. Speaking of time, I would be remiss if I did not talk about time management skills in a lecture like this. It feels a little redundant. You guys are graduate students. I'm not going to sit here and be like, you should get a planner. You should get an app on your phone.

Matthew Oxie [00:34:36]: You should set yourself for reminders. You have been in school, some of you, 20 odd years, right? You know how to keep yourself balanced, I guess, when it comes to that kind of time management. But I want to talk about time management and prioritizing tasks, right? Using what we know about self care from the previous slides, we can Work to establish a schedule that allows us to both complete necessary tasks as well as rest and recharge. Now, like I said, this can look different student to student. I will give you an example that I have used in the past in therapeutic situations. What I sometimes tell students to do is to stop studying after a certain time, right? Time management and prioritizing tasks. We have an exam on Friday, Today's Monday, right? When the week, as the week progresses, stop studying by a certain time.

Matthew Oxie [00:35:41]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:35:42]: This builds on a point that I will talk about here in a little bit. Those assignments taking as long as you give them, but when we practice intentionally. All right, 9pm Book is closed. I have two hours to do whatever I want for the rest of the night that does not involve school or studying. That intentionality helps us not only prioritize ourselves, right? We get some free time. We get to unwind a little bit, do something that we've been looking forward to, even if it's just nothing scrolling on our phone. I could sit here and talk about the negative effects of scrolling on your phone, but I'm also a person who enjoys TikTok and Instagram and am prone to scrolling on my phone after a long and stressful day. It happens, right? But when we set that boundary with ourselves, not only do we prioritize our own well being, we also prioritize the exam.

Matthew Oxie [00:36:39]: You've got class from, I don't know, 8am to 4pm you're going to get a little food afterwards and you're going to hunker down from five to nine and study. That causes you to prioritize studying effectively. If you've only got four hours, it doesn't do you any good to sit there on TikTok because you know you can do that later. I know this varies student to student, like I said, but when we put these kind of limits on these things and we put that hard time limit, for example, it allows and in a way forces us to get the most out of that study period. For this example exam. This leads into my next point that deadlines can be stressful, but they can provide a great framework for us to work in. An excellent framework. Now, there's a very extensive review done in 2020 and it talked about the impact of stress on graduate students.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:40]: One of the things it highlighted in this review, I don't remember the paper it found it from, but it showed that some stress can be helpful when completing works such as working on a thesis or masters or doctoral.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:57]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:58]: I believe the proper term is actually Eustress. There's the, the difference between eustress and distress. We're very, we're very comfortable with the idea of distress.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:08]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:09]: I have to, I don't have any time to do homework. I feel very distressed. It's all right there. Sometimes there is eustress. Sometimes these deadlines cause this sort of positive stress in our life. Instructor, determined dates for exams and papers can help guide studying and researching. They can help guide that intentional self care.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:31]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:38:32]: I use the example of the exam, no matter what, it's going to be done on Friday as an example statement. You can apply this to any homework assignment, group project, doctoral thesis exam, clinical, oz, key. Whatever you have to do, right? It's going to get done by Friday. This allows us to work with that. Intentionality works with boundaries. Sometimes it involves telling people no. Sorry guys. I love trivia night.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:03]: I love my Tuesday night trivia. For example, I can't go tonight. I have a very important paper I have to work on. I'll see you guys next week. We're intentional in what we are and are not doing right while prioritizing ways to keep us healthy. I mentioned earlier that assignments can take as long as you give them, right? This was actually said to me by a friend a couple years ago after we were both long out of school. I, it may be obvious by the way, I'm very kind of casually talking about this topic. I was never the kind of student to work on things really, really, really far in advance.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:44]: Never was my thing. Always been a last minute kind of guy. Definitely didn't put the finishing touches on this presentation this morning. I would never do that and I would never tell my lecture group about that.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:55]: Am I right?

Matthew Oxie [00:39:56]: But while having a conversation with this friend, they mentioned to me that assignments take as long as you give them. What she meant by that was, let's say I give you a paper due in two weeks. If you say, ah, I gotta work on it right now, it's due in two weeks, I gotta work on it right now. You are gonna go back to that paper every single day. Even when you think you finish it, you're gonna go back every day, you're gonna try to make changes. And that stress is gonna last for two whole weeks, right? If you only give it the evening, well, Thursday night I better start that paper I was given two weeks ago. The stress is only going to last for the evening. Now, I think both of those examples are a bit extreme.

Matthew Oxie [00:40:42]: And having lived a lot of my life in the latter, I can tell you that it does get stressful and that's not the advice I am telling you to do. I am not telling you to put off all of your your assignments until the last minute. That's not the best tactic. What I'm saying is these assignments take as long as we give them. So feel free. Please utilize your self care and utilize your self soothing. I have a quote right below that. It says it's okay to not.

Matthew Oxie [00:41:12]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:41:12]: It's okay to not do homework for a night. It's okay to take a night off and go to trivia. You've got a huge exam on Friday and you studied Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, throughout the day on Tuesday you had classes and lectures. It's okay to go to Tuesday night trivia. It's okay to not. Just as it's okay to not partake in things that are a little bit more enjoyable when you have to lock in as the kids say and focus on what you have to do. It's okay to not neglect other important pieces like that self care and that self soothing that we talked about. This is something that I always express to students who come into my office, right? Always try to mention that it is okay to not.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:01]: There are so many expectations that sometimes we forget all the things we talked about a couple slides ago.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:13]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:42:13]: If I ask you guys to recount all of the things that were on your plate, does anybody think they could list them all off from memory in order? Probably not. I can't even do that. And I made the presentation and I have the speaker notes in front of me on a separate window. I could scroll back up and look and I don't remember off the top of my head. Professors, managers, family members, friends, they may not realize all of the things that are on our plates. Despite understanding in a way, yeah, grad students are stressed. They may not know the full extent of it. Only we know truly what each of us are dealing with throughout our time in graduate school.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:56]: It is okay to not. Now. We have talked about a lot of ways to practice that are a little bit more theoretical I guess because they vary so much person to person and this is not a psychological well being group. So I'm not trying to, you know, and ask everyone like, so what are your stressors? How can we work it out individually? That's not what I'm talking about. But I want to give you guys some general things that we can engage in here, right? Get involved, get involved, get involved. Get physical.

Matthew Oxie [00:43:35]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:43:36]: Join your local or university sponsored sports teams. If you guys are on campus, the U of M Flint Rec center and all of its programs are free for all U of M students, even graduate students. They are all free. I don't even know if you need a membership. You show up with your M card, swipe, you are good to go.

Matthew Oxie [00:43:54]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:43:56]: Get yourself involved in community wellness practices.

Matthew Oxie [00:44:01]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:44:02]: Join local gyms, join running clubs, join athletic sporting teams, join walking groups. I believe there's actually a walking group at the rec center. Funny enough, it might be a community walking group or might be a student staff walking group. I believe every day, maybe every like Wednesday or Thursday, they walk around. Ask someone at the rec center about that because I believe that actually does exist here on campus. And you talk about, you know, getting involved with community wellness practices. I don't know if you guys have seen your email, but Flint does bike tours. There's bike tours all around Flint that talk about the history of the various parts of the city.

Matthew Oxie [00:44:39]: I know there's one coming up in October of like haunted Flint. That one sounds like quite a bit of fun. I know some of this stuff isn't always as straightforward, right? We recently had a staff breakfast last weekend. Again, this is a little more anecdotal, a little less empirical, as it were. Dr. Jerusalem, Dono mentioned in our whole DSA gathering that over 50% of graduate students are enrolled in online programs. Which means some of you guys might not be on campus at all or ever.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:14]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:14]: Riley was actually just telling me that a couple of members of her social work cohort don't even live in Michigan.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:20]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:22]: Please don't let that encourage, discourage. Please don't let that discourage you.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:27]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:27]: Please don't let that discourage you from getting involved and engaging in campus activities if you live two hours away. I get it. No one wants to drive to Flint for four hour round trip for a two hour spin class. Totally understand that.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:42]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:43]: But if we're close, don't let that discourage you from getting involved. And don't let it discourage you your your status as a graduate student. Don't let it discourage you from getting involved in other ways too. Might live two hours away. You might live in Lansing, Grand Rapids. You might live in the metro Detroit area. You might be up in the up. You might be out of state.

Matthew Oxie [00:46:04]: You can still find a local gym. You can still find a way to involve yourself in community. We'll talk about other ways here. Please don't let it discourage you. Graduate students are. We want you guys at our activities just as much as as other other populations of students. Get mental if you've gotten Physical. Now let's get mental.

Matthew Oxie [00:46:26]: Let's get emotional. Utilize the available mental health resources both on and off campus. Speaking of shameless self promotions, the CAPS office here at U of M Flint is free for all U of M Flint students, even graduate students. The only exception is that if you live out of state, we cannot see you if you are within the state of Michigan and enrolled in classes. And at the University of Michigan Flint we offer counseling services that are totally free. I like to joke that that actually makes us the most expensive therapy provider in Genesee county because graduate tuition is way more expensive than outpatient therapy. But it's already included. So if you need to feel free to come utilize the service as a graduate student.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:12]: If, say for example, therapy is not your thing or maybe you already have a therapist. We have reflection and sensory rooms all over campus. If you guys are on campus, I know specifically for my students over in the white building, it can feel like when you're on the other side of the river. There's no way to get over to the south side. There's no way that we can get to the use ending CAPS to utilize their wellness resources. We have many of these rooms on campus. We've got one in the library. We've got one in the CAPS office here in the University Center.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:46]: Usen and I learned today that we actually have a sensory room in the white building. Room 1209. Go. I've never been there myself, but I've learned about today. It's on our University Health and wellness page. Go check it out.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:58]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:47:58]: These rooms help you relax and unwind a little bit. The CAPS office again, because we're so cool. Have a bunch of other wellness resources in addition to our sensory room. We have a biofeedback machine. We have a Happy Light as they call it. And we even have a massage chair that literally nobody uses. You guys could book time on our massage chair and CAPS and come use it today if you wanted to. Well, we're almost close, so maybe not today, but early in the winter.

Matthew Oxie [00:48:30]: U of M Flint is oftentimes our week of wellness.

Matthew Oxie [00:48:33]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:48:34]: Keep an eye out on your email over the next couple of months to hear about Week of Wellness. In addition to doing a bunch of fun giveaways and things like that, it really is a great environment on campus to promote student well being throughout those eight dimensions that we talked about earlier. Speaking of keeping your eyes out for things on campus, get social. Get social with it. Visit Campus Connections for all the latest event updates for both on campus and online programs. That is the most commercial sounding thing I have said in this entire lecture and for that I apologize. This is not a paid advertisement by Campus Connections, right? This is something you can utilize. Log into as a, as a U of M.

Matthew Oxie [00:49:20]: Flint student and get the lowdown on what is happening around campus. There are a lot of great programs that again, promote wellness that are oftentimes totally free. Finally, we talk about getting social. Connect with your family, friends and peers. When we have this kind of amount of stress on our plate that we talked about, we have the stress, we have all of the expectations. It can be a lot. And I know talking about it can be hard as well. Take it from me, as someone who both listens to people talk about it and struggled to talk about it myself in graduate school, it can be a lot.

Matthew Oxie [00:50:00]: Connect with your family, connect with your friends, Connect with your peers in class. Connect with your cohorts. Even if you guys are all remote, have a game night, right? Connect with one another. As I mentioned earlier, humans are social creatures and the connection is vital to helping us stay afloat, keeping our heads above water. I want to thank you all so much for coming to this lecture here today. I hope you guys have learned a thing or two about how to kind of balance and manage all these expectations in graduate school. I hope you guys have learned about the dimensions of wellness. I hope, most importantly that you have learned the difference between self care and self soothing and how you guys could apply that to your day to day lives.

Matthew Oxie [00:50:43]: And I hope you guys are encouraged to get out and get involved. Talk to people on campus or off campus. When I send Dr. Lewis the slides, I'm going to send him some additional links. Links to the rec center, links to the CAPS office, links to campus connections. Things that you as students can and absolutely should utilize. Remember, they're all free. So like I said, thank you so much.

Matthew Oxie [00:51:07]: Dr. Lewis, I'm going to turn it back over to you. You can close us out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:51:10]: Well, thank you all for coming today. Really appreciate it. Thank you Matthew for all of this amazing information and I wish you all the best as you're moving through your graduate school experience. Thank you so much for your time today and for being here. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:51:44]: Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].