Victors in Grad School

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In this episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, listeners are taken on an honest and insightful journey through the graduate school experience with Steve Wilson. From the very beginning of the conversation, one theme stands out clearly: graduate school is not simply about earning another degree—it is about growth, discovery, and learning how to navigate uncertainty.

Steve shares how a summer undergraduate research opportunity completely changed the direction of his life. What began as a simple invitation from a professor turned into a passion for research and ultimately led him toward a PhD. His story highlights something many students may not realize: graduate education can open doors that once felt impossible, especially when students learn about opportunities like fully funded doctoral programs.

Steve encourages students to think deeply about why they want to pursue graduate school and what they hope to gain from the experience. Rather than simply "checking the box" for another credential, he emphasizes taking ownership of the journey—seeking out projects, building relationships, exploring research opportunities, and connecting classroom learning to long-term career goals.

Steve openly reflects on the challenges of adapting from undergraduate coursework to the expectations of doctoral-level research. He speaks honestly about moments of uncertainty, the value of mentorship, and how important it was to build friendships and maintain personal connections outside of academia. His reflections remind listeners that success in graduate school is not just about intelligence or hard work; it is also about community, self-awareness, and resilience.

One especially powerful takeaway from the episode is the reminder that preparation matters. Steve discusses how reading research papers, learning trends within a field, and connecting with others already in graduate programs can help students feel more confident before they even step into their first class.

Whether you are just beginning to think about graduate school, currently applying, or already deep into your academic journey, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement that can help you move forward with confidence. Steve's story is relatable, thoughtful, and filled with wisdom for anyone considering what comes next in their educational and professional path.

If you are looking for inspiration, real-world advice, and an honest look at graduate education, this is an episode you will not want to miss.

TRANSCRIPT

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1 00:00:03.260 --> 00:00:19.929 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

2 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:33.039 Christopher Lewis: Whether you are at the very beginning, and you're starting to think about, well, maybe I want to do this grad school thing, or maybe you've applied, and you're waiting for that answer, or you've already gotten your answer, and you're accepted, and you're going to be starting classes soon.

3 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:43.290 Christopher Lewis: Or, maybe you're in a graduate program, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. There are things that you can do today, right now.

4 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:50.749 Christopher Lewis: That you can work on to help you to be able to find success in this graduate school journey.

5 00:00:50.830 --> 00:01:05.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have the opportunity to be able to work with you, to introduce you to people that have gone before you, gone to graduate school, found success in their own ways.

6 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:10.280 Christopher Lewis: And then you can learn from what they learned along the way as well.

7 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:31.270 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Dr. Steve Wilson is with us today, and Dr. Wilson is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and for him to talk a little bit more about his own experience, and to introduce him to you.

8 00:01:31.650 --> 00:01:33.569 Christopher Lewis: Steve, thanks so much for being here today.

9 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:35.429 Steve Wilson: Yeah, thanks for having me.

10 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:52.029 Christopher Lewis: You know, I'm really excited to be able to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations really turning the clock back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Taylor, at Taylor University, and when you were there.

11 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:57.120 Christopher Lewis: there was a point. There was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done.

12 00:01:57.270 --> 00:01:58.669 Christopher Lewis: I want to continue.

13 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:04.869 Christopher Lewis: Bring me back to that point, and what was going through your head as you made that decision for yourself?

14 00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:14.000 Steve Wilson: Yeah, great question. So I think it was a series of events that led me there.

15 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.329 Steve Wilson: which started with research. I mean, that's, I think, what led me to this whole thing.

16 00:02:19.570 --> 00:02:23.810 Steve Wilson: I had a great opportunity to be involved in a summer research project.

17 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:25.669 Steve Wilson: while I was working at Taylor.

18 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:33.089 Steve Wilson: We were kind of working with a company there on some things, and, you know, it was just, one of my professors.

19 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:40.900 Steve Wilson: at some point in the semester, said, hey, Steve, are you working on anything this summer? We've got this interesting research project, you might be a good fit.

20 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:49.669 Steve Wilson: And I thought it sounded like something fun to try, so I did that, and throughout that summer, I kind of

21 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:52.199 Steve Wilson: Fell in love with research, you could say.

22 00:02:54.250 --> 00:03:00.219 Steve Wilson: I just really loved the idea of… in contrast to what my coursework felt like, where it was more…

23 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:13.840 Steve Wilson: We know the answer, we know you can get here, let's figure out how to do that. Research was, we don't really know what the answer is. We don't know if there is an answer, but we're gonna try this because we think this is an important thing to work on.

24 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:20.080 Steve Wilson: And I really loved working on those kind of projects, And…

25 00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:25.710 Steve Wilson: I think that went well. And I started asking more about how

26 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:29.539 Steve Wilson: I could get more involved in research, and…

27 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:36.340 Steve Wilson: my professor said, why did… did you think about going to grad school? Maybe you could do a PhD, and I said.

28 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:41.810 Steve Wilson: I don't have any more money. You know, undergrad is kind of the end of the line for me, I need to go get a job.

29 00:03:42.250 --> 00:03:49.179 Steve Wilson: And that's when I learned the thing I think everyone should know, you know, especially in STEM,

30 00:03:49.690 --> 00:04:03.340 Steve Wilson: almost any PhD program that you'll go to is fully funded, which means maybe you're not making as much as you would for an industry job, but tuition's covered, health insurance is covered, and you have a stipend that's, you know, enough to live off of.

31 00:04:03.730 --> 00:04:12.610 Steve Wilson: And so that knowledge itself kind of flipped everything for me, where I realized it was a… financially, it was an option in the first place. And I wouldn't have known, I'd…

32 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:15.290 Steve Wilson: Always assumed PhD was something…

33 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:31.260 Steve Wilson: kind of out of reach for me, personally, just because of my situation, but learning that, you know, it could be financially possible, learning that it was actually very research-focused, it wasn't just, I would be going to take 5 more years of courses.

34 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:37.520 Steve Wilson: Which is kind of what I had assumed it was when you did a PhD, you just took really hard courses the whole time.

35 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:46.530 Steve Wilson: But it's not that. It really is almost like an apprenticeship learning how to do research, with a little bit of coursework in there as well.

36 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:50.740 Steve Wilson: And that sounded really appealing to me, so that was…

37 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:55.480 Steve Wilson: Kind of my final year of undergrad that this all started happening.

38 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:59.639 Steve Wilson: And I started looking at schools, I started applying,

39 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:07.709 Steve Wilson: probably still could have prepared better and learned more, but, you know, I put out my best shot and,

40 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.730 Steve Wilson: started applying for PhD programs, basically, right from there.

41 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.959 Steve Wilson: And that was how that decision came to be.

42 00:05:16.870 --> 00:05:29.119 Christopher Lewis: And I know you made the decision, finally, to attend the University of Michigan for a PhD program, and in that PhD program, you received both a master's and a PhD.

43 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:44.190 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about that decision-making process for yourself, because you said you started looking at programs. So, what did you do in that process for yourself, and what was it about the University of Michigan that made you decide that that was the right program for you?

44 00:05:45.670 --> 00:05:53.080 Steve Wilson: Right, okay, so… During my undergrad, I got… Pretty interested in…

45 00:05:55.640 --> 00:06:01.769 Steve Wilson: The combination slash overlap between computer science and psychology or cognitive science.

46 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:10.100 Steve Wilson: Because I had actually started out a psychology major during my undergrad. Psychology pre-med, actually, and then…

47 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:20.780 Steve Wilson: for various reasons, ended up switching to computer science. But I had still always been super interested in the aspects of human behavior, how people interact, cognition, things like that.

48 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:28.519 Steve Wilson: So I was super interested in that as a starting point, and I think that led a lot of my search for

49 00:06:28.760 --> 00:06:30.549 Steve Wilson: Who are the people

50 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:50.509 Steve Wilson: working at that intersection, who would be doing something related to computer science, but also where I'd be able to do something related to psychology or cognitive science. So, I just started looking around online to see where are these researchers who are doing this kind of stuff, and I found some amazing people all around the world doing really cool things.

51 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:55.150 Steve Wilson: And… Started looking at…

52 00:06:55.350 --> 00:07:06.179 Steve Wilson: the PhD programs where they were taking students, and that kind of gave me a short list of potential programs, to apply for, where I thought.

53 00:07:06.530 --> 00:07:15.120 Steve Wilson: This is research I'd be super excited about working on. If I was able to be fortunate to get a position working with any of these people, I would be pretty happy.

54 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:19.830 Steve Wilson: And that would kind of allow me to build off of the background that I had.

55 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:27.260 Steve Wilson: And… One of those programs was the University of Michigan, I…

56 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:37.390 Steve Wilson: applied to the program. I… I think another criteria, in addition, which Michigan has, which was a funding guarantee.

57 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:45.949 Steve Wilson: Which is something I talked about before, but, you know, the financials were a big thing for me. And not every school has the same kind of funding guarantee.

58 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:55.579 Steve Wilson: University of Michigan had a 5-year guaranteed funding for all PhD students who were admitted into the College of Engineering, which was pretty appealing to me.

59 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.820 Steve Wilson: To know that I would be able to make good progress and not have to worry about

60 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:14.529 Steve Wilson: funding. And a number of other schools had similar programs that I kind of exclusively applied to those kind of programs who also had faculty, were working in this type of intersection area, and…

61 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:23.440 Steve Wilson: I think I eventually ended up going for in-person interviews at 3 or 4 universities.

62 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:35.010 Steve Wilson: they all felt great when I was there, and I think U of M was the last one, so sometimes I wonder if there was a recency bias there, but each one, I think, impressed me more than the previous one.

63 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:42.400 Steve Wilson: But I really felt… that I could connect and relate to the students when I visited.

64 00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:46.209 Steve Wilson: In a way that felt different from some of the other places.

65 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:55.659 Steve Wilson: And there were not just one faculty, but a number of different faculty at the University of Michigan who I felt were very strong in the areas I was interested in.

66 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:11.639 Steve Wilson: So, I felt that that was also very safe to have as a, you know, what if somebody leaves, or what if it doesn't work out with a certain faculty member? I felt pretty confident that I would be able to find someone that I was happy working with for…

67 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.599 Steve Wilson: You know, 5 or 6 years on research.

68 00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:22.240 Steve Wilson: And I'm also… grew up in Michigan, so, there was that pull to be…

69 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:30.469 Steve Wilson: within driving distance of home and things like that was nice. So all of those things kind of converged to make it feel like it was the right decision.

70 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:46.629 Christopher Lewis: So, in transitioning into a graduate program, there is always a transition, because the way in which you're educated at an undergraduate level is typically different than what you're being asked to do at a graduate level.

71 00:09:46.810 --> 00:10:04.400 Christopher Lewis: the rigor is different, the expectations in the classroom are going to be different, and you do have to go through a transition for yourself to be able to find that groove and find that… that ability to be able to understand, okay, what am I being expected to do, and how can I best do that? So.

72 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:09.200 Christopher Lewis: You were able to find success in this journey that you went on.

73 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:16.820 Christopher Lewis: What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program?

74 00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:24.620 Christopher Lewis: And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

75 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:35.130 Steve Wilson: this isn't good, repeatable advice, but I think I got very lucky a few times, especially at the beginning, because I think I actually…

76 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:47.370 Steve Wilson: didn't prepare in the best way possible. I don't think I fully understood what a PhD program was, to be honest, when I started. I knew it was about research, I knew I was gonna be working on

77 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.320 Steve Wilson: interesting stuff, and I was very excited about it.

78 00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:55.759 Steve Wilson: But… I still don't think I fully understood what it meant to…

79 00:10:56.110 --> 00:11:10.890 Steve Wilson: do a dissertation, and really get involved in this longer-term, not just a summer research position, but, you know, really trying to make a contribution, sustained contribution in a field, and what went into that, and how do you prepare yourself as a

80 00:11:11.340 --> 00:11:14.229 Steve Wilson: Developing into a researcher from someone who's

81 00:11:15.050 --> 00:11:19.879 Steve Wilson: Been used to being handed assignments for things and studying for exams and all of that.

82 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:26.620 Steve Wilson: I think I could have prepared a lot more, probably by talking to more people

83 00:11:27.150 --> 00:11:34.150 Steve Wilson: in PhD programs, or who had gone through similar experiences, or finding… there are actually tons of great resources online, which I…

84 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.020 Steve Wilson: I'm not sure I knew even what to search for.

85 00:11:37.130 --> 00:11:41.849 Steve Wilson: when I was an undergraduate, but a lot of people who have written about their experiences,

86 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:44.759 Steve Wilson: Through blog posts or other things like that, which…

87 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:51.250 Steve Wilson: I only found later and thought, this… wow, this would have been really… valuable to me early on.

88 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:56.749 Steve Wilson: so some of it was learning as I was going, and then some of it was,

89 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:06.249 Steve Wilson: you know, as I mentioned, the luck thing, I think, comes into play with my own advisor, who was not actually at the University of Michigan when I applied.

90 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:11.629 Steve Wilson: So I made that comment about there being several faculty that I thought I might work with.

91 00:12:11.790 --> 00:12:14.170 Steve Wilson: The person I ended up working with wasn't one of them.

92 00:12:14.650 --> 00:12:23.210 Steve Wilson: And… She actually started the same semester I did, coming from another institution, and was a new faculty member.

93 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:33.580 Steve Wilson: And the way I remember it, it was, she sent an email to the new PhD student saying there was a project related to computer science and psychology and language and…

94 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:44.349 Steve Wilson: if anyone's interested in that kind of research, to come talk to her. And that was, you know, as I described before, kind of exactly the thing I was interested in, so I…

95 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:46.470 Steve Wilson: Set up a meeting.

96 00:12:46.860 --> 00:13:02.990 Steve Wilson: We started kind of tentatively working on something, and then that became my entire dissertation. So, in some ways, I feel like I stumbled into that path, which is what ended up working very well for me, in the long run. But if I…

97 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:22.249 Steve Wilson: if I would give advice to people, it probably wouldn't be just go somewhere and hope you find the best advisor by chance. It would be do your homework beforehand and figure out what it looks like to be a student in their lab, even looking at some of the trajectories of their own, you know, the other students who work in that research lab and things like that.

98 00:13:22.590 --> 00:13:28.360 Steve Wilson: Other things to be successful, I think, was…

99 00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:31.079 Steve Wilson: I, I really do think,

100 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:36.440 Steve Wilson: My undergrad education at Taylor prepared me fairly well for a lot of the…

101 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:42.649 Steve Wilson: CS coursework. I think there was a good, solid technical background that I had.

102 00:13:42.790 --> 00:13:51.809 Steve Wilson: I found grad school, especially at University of Michigan, to have a bigger emphasis on some of the, like, math and theory components.

103 00:13:51.970 --> 00:13:55.579 Steve Wilson: of the field of computer science, which I…

104 00:13:55.730 --> 00:13:57.409 Steve Wilson: Had to do some catching up.

105 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:00.510 Steve Wilson: I would say, but I think you…

106 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:03.360 Steve Wilson: I think the undergraduate degree is…

107 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:14.410 Steve Wilson: maybe this is kind of cliche, but it's learning how to learn about things on your own, and I feel like I was kind of able to get that to the point that if there were things that were thrown at me in my master's, that

108 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:16.500 Steve Wilson: May have been a gap.

109 00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:23.570 Steve Wilson: I kind of had the ability to identify that and do a little bit of self-study to catch up.

110 00:14:23.670 --> 00:14:44.940 Steve Wilson: or rely on other classmates, you know, make some friends, study together, that kind of thing, and get through some of that coursework, which was definitely challenging at times for the… you know, this was for the master's component of my program, where you… you did the coursework that would be involved in a master's during the first two years of your PhD, while you're also getting started with your research.

111 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:51.020 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, there were some… Challenges there, just getting used to,

112 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:55.730 Steve Wilson: Maybe a different level of courses and having some of those different areas covered.

113 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:04.410 Steve Wilson: But yeah, I think those are some of the things. I don't know, yeah.

114 00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.300 Steve Wilson: Maybe that… I'll leave it there for now.

115 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:16.210 Christopher Lewis: I guess as you look back, you've gotten through the master's and the doctorate, you went to do a postdoc as well, and you continue to do that.

116 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:25.930 Christopher Lewis: If you could go back in time prior to starting in the master's degree, how would you prepare academically or professionally before starting graduate school?

117 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:34.229 Steve Wilson: for my PhD, I think, like, before, yeah, PhD or Master's,

118 00:15:35.690 --> 00:15:41.770 Steve Wilson: maybe getting a bit more immersed in the research, the field that I was getting into from a…

119 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:48.250 Steve Wilson: What's happening now perspective, not the historic, fundamental stuff, which is covered in your courses, but…

120 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:57.739 Steve Wilson: I don't know if I would have been able to convince myself to do this, but if I could have spent the summer before reading a lot of research papers, for example, that were kind of the core

121 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:03.469 Steve Wilson: pieces, or very recent trends. Because there was a lot to learn about

122 00:16:03.890 --> 00:16:12.139 Steve Wilson: Not what has this field been like for… in 50… the past 50 years, but especially in the past 2 or 3 years, what are the trends, what's going on?

123 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.009 Steve Wilson: getting used to being able to read a research paper, I think, is one of those things that

124 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:29.960 Steve Wilson: takes practice. It's almost like an exercise, mental muscle type of thing, more so than a thing you can just teach, here's how to read a research paper. Obviously, there are some tips, but really, you have to do it. You just have to do it.

125 00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:37.479 Steve Wilson: looking at, talks from people, which are often posted online, like, on YouTube, from leaders in the field.

126 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.959 Steve Wilson: Hearing what they have to say, what people are writing about, to get…

127 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:46.150 Steve Wilson: very involved in some of that, and then…

128 00:16:46.300 --> 00:16:56.739 Steve Wilson: Yeah, if there are topics that would be background, if you were pivoting toward a different field for your graduate degree, I know that's fairly common, where I would see people from

129 00:16:57.930 --> 00:17:10.289 Steve Wilson: a range of other fields who want to do a master's in computer science, for example. I had classmates who had backgrounds all the way through music. I knew someone who's a music undergrad and then did CS masters, or sometimes people do a bit of a shift.

130 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.790 Steve Wilson: So…

131 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:19.989 Steve Wilson: a little bit of self-study, I think, on some of those concepts that are used across a lot of courses. For me, I actually did do a little bit of…

132 00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:28.330 Steve Wilson: study of some math concepts in the summer before, that I felt like I needed to catch up on.

133 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:36.420 Steve Wilson: So those kind of things, but I think if you can hit the ground running, kind of having a good sense of where is this field

134 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:38.290 Steve Wilson: at right now.

135 00:17:38.540 --> 00:17:47.060 Steve Wilson: Even if you don't understand all of it, but knowing the trends, not in just a buzzword way, but what are people who are working on this actually talking about it can be…

136 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:51.350 Steve Wilson: extremely helpful for, like, getting kickstart as a researcher.

137 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:02.289 Christopher Lewis: And as you just go into a doctorate program, and you are moving into that next phase of your life.

138 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:20.899 Christopher Lewis: how… there takes a… there's a lot of things that you have to balance, and a lot of hats that you have to wear. You're not only a student, but you are a… you're still… you are… you're still a son, you're a… you could be… you have a significant other, there's lots of different things that you have to juggle.

139 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:30.579 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about balance for yourself, and how did you balance school with work and family and personal responsibilities while you were going through that graduate school process?

140 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.170 Steve Wilson: Yeah, definitely a big challenge.

141 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:43.020 Steve Wilson: because it is a… it's a thing, you can kind of give as much time as… as you want to it, right? Like, there's always more you can do.

142 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.129 Steve Wilson: When you're in one of these graduate programs, I think, or more that you feel that you could be doing.

143 00:18:50.030 --> 00:19:00.839 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, I think part of it was balancing schedules with, my partner, so I was married the entire time through

144 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:05.020 Steve Wilson: graduate school. My wife worked…

145 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.709 Steve Wilson: For the first while, night shifts at the hospital.

146 00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:16.210 Steve Wilson: There in Ann Arbor as well, so there was some convenience to that, because we were both able to

147 00:19:16.840 --> 00:19:24.089 Steve Wilson: live without really needing a car. I mean, I could pick up the bus to where I worked, and we lived near the hospital where she worked.

148 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:30.460 Steve Wilson: We did our thing there. And that led me to… Doing a lot of work.

149 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:35.450 Steve Wilson: Late at night, because that was when she was working.

150 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:46.799 Steve Wilson: And that was when I felt like I could kind of lock in, and I wasn't getting a lot of emails or other kind of distractions, and having those, like, set aside solid times of

151 00:19:47.410 --> 00:19:54.419 Steve Wilson: productivity, where I'm sitting down. You know, a lot of my work was being at the keyboard in front of the computer, you know.

152 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.940 Steve Wilson: Whether it's writing code, running experiments, writing papers, reading papers, that kind of thing.

153 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:06.159 Steve Wilson: And finding the time when I could regularly do that was useful.

154 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:18.929 Steve Wilson: but then also making sure to have time that's not for that, that works with other people's schedules. So there were certain periods of time where

155 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:20.360 Steve Wilson: I would…

156 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:27.490 Steve Wilson: Be home, and be around, and not working on stuff, which is the time that we're both awake.

157 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:36.799 Steve Wilson: And able to spend time together and do things with other friends in the area. We had a good number of mutual friends, I think.

158 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:44.400 Steve Wilson: around Ann Arbor that, you know, would pull me away from the lab, which was a nice thing, I think, to make those connections, and not just be a…

159 00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:48.370 Steve Wilson: I'm gonna go put my head down and not talk to anyone.

160 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.689 Steve Wilson: I actually found it really valuable to have a lot of friends who are not

161 00:20:51.860 --> 00:21:08.519 Steve Wilson: PhD students in computer science also. I definitely had friends in the program, but having friends doing other things kind of gives you the opportunity to step outside of that a little bit, when you're doing things with them, hearing about what's going on in their lives and things like that, so…

162 00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.129 Steve Wilson: That's also useful. And then…

163 00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:20.680 Steve Wilson: Like I said, the University of Michigan was located near where I grew up, so I did have family nearby, which I'm definitely very fortunate. I know not everyone

164 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:25.139 Steve Wilson: Has the opportunity to go to grad school near where they lived.

165 00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:30.589 Steve Wilson: But it was possible for me to, like, take a weekend trip and drive home and see

166 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:33.150 Steve Wilson: My parents and things like that, so…

167 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.699 Steve Wilson: That also happened fairly regularly, I think.

168 00:21:37.290 --> 00:21:40.749 Steve Wilson: But, yeah, I would say it's…

169 00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:48.199 Steve Wilson: it's challenging. I have kids now, I didn't have kids as a grad student. I think life would have been very different, you know.

170 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:56.320 Steve Wilson: also balancing being a dad with grad school, and really, I'm not sure how I would have done it other than

171 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.380 Steve Wilson: I don't know, being just very regimented and strict with my time, even more so than I was.

172 00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:09.669 Steve Wilson: But… yeah, I think I… it was already kind of… I felt maxed out, you know, already with…

173 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.360 Steve Wilson: The situation that it was in at the time.

174 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:31.970 Christopher Lewis: I appreciate you sharing that. Now, I mentioned earlier in passing that after you received your doctorate, you did go and do a post-bac, or a postdoc… go on… you went and did a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh, and

175 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:52.039 Christopher Lewis: We haven't really talked a lot about that on the show, so I want to have you talk a little bit more about that experience, and what made you decide, after you were done with your doctorate, to take that next step and continue working in a higher education setting, but in a little bit of a different way?

176 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:55.869 Steve Wilson: Yeah, so that was a great experience.

177 00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:57.400 Steve Wilson: To start.

178 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:03.779 Steve Wilson: I started thinking about postdocs toward the end of my PhD,

179 00:23:04.270 --> 00:23:06.040 Steve Wilson: I think as a way to…

180 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:12.329 Steve Wilson: A couple things I wanted to achieve with that, I guess. One was to broaden my research experience a bit.

181 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:23.199 Steve Wilson: I feel… I think the purpose of a PhD is that you're very focused, and you're working on one very specific line of work, sustained over a period of time, so that you can make a contribution to the field.

182 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:25.539 Steve Wilson: But I had this feeling, like.

183 00:23:26.310 --> 00:23:32.480 Steve Wilson: I just had worked on this one thing for so long. I wanted to get a little bit more breadth. I was…

184 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:38.459 Steve Wilson: Definitely, in the back of my mind, thinking about faculty jobs down the road.

185 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.819 Steve Wilson: But thought that it would be valuable to…

186 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:46.070 Steve Wilson: Have a little bit more breadth in my research experience.

187 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.229 Steve Wilson: And at the same time.

188 00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:55.660 Steve Wilson: the international experience was appealing to me. I had always lived in the same country my whole life.

189 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.089 Steve Wilson: And it was kind of a…

190 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:04.230 Steve Wilson: goal of mine to spend some time outside of the United States at some point.

191 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:18.280 Steve Wilson: Just to experience living somewhere else. And I do think that was really valuable for me. And I thought a postdoc was a great opportunity to do that because of the fact that they're usually fixed-term contract type of positions, so it wasn't… it didn't feel like…

192 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:26.929 Steve Wilson: a commitment to move to this place indefinitely or something. It was, you know, I knew going in this was a two-year term.

193 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:28.270 Steve Wilson: Kind of thing.

194 00:24:28.450 --> 00:24:34.480 Steve Wilson: And it was a way to kind of see what it's like in a new place, get some more experience.

195 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:42.429 Steve Wilson: continue doing research. I mean, the position I found, I think, was a really natural progression for my PhD work to expand it a little bit.

196 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:46.680 Steve Wilson: And it also gave a little bit more breathing room,

197 00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:55.610 Steve Wilson: Where I didn't feel like I had to be writing my dissertation, defending my dissertation, and applying for faculty jobs, which is also an exhausting

198 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.010 Steve Wilson: Process, I think, you know.

199 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:10.749 Steve Wilson: to apply for faculty positions, and doing all of that at the same time. So, a postdoc also helped to space that out a little bit, where I was finishing my dissertation, and then postdoc applications, pretty…

200 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:17.439 Steve Wilson: light, I would say, definitely compared to applying for tenure-track faculty jobs. A lot of those

201 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:29.769 Steve Wilson: just come from word of mouth, or networking, or, you know, so-and-so just got a grant, and they have a postdoc written in, and they need someone to start in 4 months. That kind of stuff is pretty common, I think. So…

202 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.829 Steve Wilson: Yeah, looking at those positions was also a nice step to…

203 00:25:37.260 --> 00:25:40.509 Steve Wilson: you know, build onto my career, I think, and…

204 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:45.790 Steve Wilson: Personally, I just found it a really valuable and enjoyable experience, too.

205 00:25:50.680 --> 00:26:00.550 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's in a technological field, business, health, whatever it may be.

206 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.879 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

207 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.310 Steve Wilson: I think you want to come in with a clear idea of… Why you're doing it?

208 00:26:17.850 --> 00:26:19.450 Steve Wilson: What you want to get out of it?

209 00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.809 Steve Wilson: And take ownership of your experience as a graduate student.

210 00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:32.600 Steve Wilson: So, what I mean is not coming in and saying, I'm not sure, I might do this, I'll go and see…

211 00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:39.150 Steve Wilson: Maybe I'll do the minimum of what they ask me, get the piece of paper at the end.

212 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:42.759 Steve Wilson: And that will open doors for me, or something like that.

213 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:53.610 Steve Wilson: I kind of feel like that's… it's an approach to graduate school, but I don't think it's going to really maximize what you get out of it. I think, what's really helpful is knowing I want to…

214 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:07.760 Steve Wilson: achieve a certain kind of goal longer term, and I know this program's going to help me get there, and I want to make the most out of it to help build my profile, my skills development, those kind of things during that program, which means

215 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:13.949 Steve Wilson: really thinking about what you want to learn, which… there are things you can learn

216 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:33.249 Steve Wilson: beyond just the classroom. Even in the classroom, I think you can go beyond what's just given to you directly by professors by looking for ways to… I mean, I think we have a lot of, project-based kind of courses here at U of M Flint, for example, but those kind of things, I think, lend themselves nicely to

217 00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:45.019 Steve Wilson: students exploring things that match their interests. If you have the chance to do things like projects or, research components within courses, where you're able to explore those things that are going to help

218 00:27:45.550 --> 00:27:51.790 Steve Wilson: Act as a perfect stepping stone, or give you the skills that you want to talk about when you're applying for jobs later.

219 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:02.059 Steve Wilson: That you can kind of control, you should really do that, but even outside of the classroom, I think the relationships during grad school are extremely valuable.

220 00:28:02.270 --> 00:28:06.920 Steve Wilson: I think I was always… had this impression of networking as this…

221 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:14.880 Steve Wilson: you know, people in suits shaking hands with each other kind of thing, but really, I think a lot of the most valuable networking I've done is…

222 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:23.449 Steve Wilson: making friends in grad school, for example, which sounds maybe too easy, but these are the people who are

223 00:28:23.870 --> 00:28:32.459 Steve Wilson: they're the future leaders in your field, right? Like, you're going to school with other people who are passionate about whatever you're studying, that want to get a graduate degree.

224 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:50.370 Steve Wilson: it's a really unique opportunity to be in the same place consistently with that kind of cohort of people for several years, and they are probably going to be doing really impressive, amazing things in 5, 10 years. And those people that you know now, I mean, I don't think…

225 00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:03.849 Steve Wilson: you should think of relationships as this, oh, I'm only being friends so that you'll help me later, but… I mean, when I think of what my friends from grad school are doing now, it's, you know, they're all doing amazing things, and I have this network of people

226 00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:11.890 Steve Wilson: Around the world, in industry, in academia, doing cool things that I didn't… go to…

227 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:24.029 Steve Wilson: you know, show up at knocking on doors at Google or something to know people at Google, it's just you knew people from grad school who ended up there, or those kinds of things. So I think that's a really valuable thing, is going…

228 00:29:24.290 --> 00:29:31.409 Steve Wilson: Again, beyond just what's asked of you as a grad student, but finding people around other opportunities if there are, like.

229 00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:41.409 Steve Wilson: clubs or resources that help you with, developing in your area of specialization. If you can get involved in research projects, even as a master's student.

230 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:49.099 Steve Wilson: I think research can be valuable if you find the right project. I mean, not everyone wants to do a PhD, or wants to go into a research field.

231 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:59.160 Steve Wilson: But you can also think of research as, like, a very open-ended way to work with someone who's kind of an expert on this topic that you wanted to study.

232 00:29:59.530 --> 00:30:02.660 Steve Wilson: And…

233 00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:13.429 Steve Wilson: I mean, make it a negotiation if you're trying to figure out a project to work on. Maybe they don't exactly do this thing that you want to get the skill, but they do something pretty close, and you can say, hey, I really want to…

234 00:30:14.020 --> 00:30:15.960 Steve Wilson: Get some experience with…

235 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:26.600 Steve Wilson: whatever it is. For AI right now, you know a hot thing is dealing with agents, so I really want to learn how to do something with, you know, agentic AI. Is there something we can work on in your lab that would…

236 00:30:26.790 --> 00:30:36.599 Steve Wilson: fit with your research goals, but also would give me some hands-on, direct experience with Agentic AI, or whatever the thing is that you really want that skill.

237 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.669 Steve Wilson: That's gonna be super valuable, not just for research positions later, but…

238 00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:53.070 Steve Wilson: for an industry position where you can say, hey, I spent the semester, or a year, or whatever it was, building these kind of tools that's exactly the thing your company's LinkedIn post is looking for.

239 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.049 Steve Wilson: For…

240 00:30:55.290 --> 00:31:05.379 Steve Wilson: their purposes, and I learned from this person who has expertise in the field of how to make sure that it's done correctly, and for an impact, and all of those kind of things.

241 00:31:05.610 --> 00:31:12.540 Steve Wilson: I think that can be useful. But yeah, just being very on the,

242 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.950 Steve Wilson: On the lookout for opportunities.

243 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.460 Steve Wilson: While you're there, during graduate school, to…

244 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:23.509 Steve Wilson: To do things that, are gonna set you up for success in the future.

245 00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:31.319 Steve Wilson: And talking to other people who are in similar situations, and seeing what they're doing, and those kind of things, I just think is super valuable.

246 00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:34.400 Steve Wilson: In addition to the coursework, which is gonna…

247 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:37.430 Steve Wilson: You know, maybe get you another level of,

248 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:42.399 Steve Wilson: Beyond your undergraduate courses in a bit more advanced level of a lot of different…

249 00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:46.349 Steve Wilson: Areas, and maybe allow you to specialize a little bit more.

250 00:31:49.950 --> 00:32:12.040 Christopher Lewis: Well, Steve, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share these words of wisdom and to kind of think back and relive some of the experiences, but also share some great tips, some great ideas for individuals to think about as they're starting their journey for themselves. And I wish you all the best.

251 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:13.430 Steve Wilson: Thank you.

In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Edie Lerner, a second-year physician assistant (PA) student at the University of Michigan, Flint, whose journey offers a powerful blend of inspiration and practical advice for anyone considering—or currently navigating—graduate school.

From the moment Edie Lerner shares her story, the theme of intentionality stands out. Edie's path to graduate school was anything but rushed. After double majoring in Biology and Biopsychology, Cognition, and Neuroscience at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, she took two and a half years off. During this gap, she gathered hands-on experience in healthcare, worked as a teaching assistant, and developed both the skills and self-understanding necessary to thrive in a rigorous PA program. As Edie notes, the decision to pursue graduate education isn't just about academics—it's about being truly ready as a person for the journey ahead.

A recurring message throughout the conversation is the importance of support systems. Edie intentionally sought out programs close to home, valuing proximity to her family and the ability to lean on her loved ones during challenging times (05:29). For her, success in graduate school isn't just about surviving exams or clinical hours—it's about sustaining her well-being through community connections, advocacy, and service. The University of Michigan Flint's focus on leadership and integrated service learning resonated deeply, aligning with Edie's passion for making a meaningful impact beyond the classroom.

Transitioning to graduate-level study, Edie speaks candidly about the reality of burnout, adapting study habits, and the need to maintain boundaries. Her approach—setting realistic limits for study hours, making time each week for personal renewal, and actively seeking help from faculty and peers—emphasizes that resilience is built through self-awareness and intentional choices. Through it all, Edie's mantra has become "trust the process." Growth doesn't happen overnight, and every challenge—big or small—shapes who you become as a student and a future professional.

Perhaps the most powerful takeaway from this episode is Edie's encouragement to anyone at the starting line: know your "why," lean on your support system, and remember that you are capable. As Dr. Lewis points out, the journey isn't always easy, but the transformation and sense of purpose make it all worthwhile.

Whether you're considering grad school or are deep in the trenches yourself, this episode provides practical insights and a comforting reminder—you're not alone in your journey. Ready for motivation and strategies you can apply to your own path? Listen to the full conversation and fuel your drive to succeed.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you come back and you come back to learn and grow every week. And the reason for, for that is that you've got this inkling and maybe it's an inkling of just like, hey, maybe I want to do this graduate school thing, or maybe you're a little bit further along. No matter where you are in the journey, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: You have some idea in your head that you want to either go to graduate school, you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, but you want to be successful in this journey, and that's why you're here, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk to individuals that are interested in working toward that graduate school goal for themselves, and I love being able to introduce you to people that have gone before you. They might still be in graduate school, they might have already graduated and are out working and have been in the field for many years. But the commonality is they all went through the journey themselves and you can learn from them. You can learn from the things that worked, the things that didn't work. And, and that's why I bring you different people with different experiences that can share those journeys with you. And today we got another great guest. Edie Lerner is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:32]: And Edie is a second year physician assistant student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She just finished up the first year, moving into the second year, and I'm really excited to be able to have her here. Edie, thanks so much for being here today.

Edie Lerner [00:01:44]: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to share a little bit about my journey and share my time at U of M. Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here as well. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and you did a double major there, doing a biology degree as well as biopsychology. Cognition, neuroscience, that's a big named degree. But at some point in that journey, and it might have been during college, and you always had the idea for graduate school or I know you left college, went out, did some work, got some experiences before you decided to go to graduate school, Maybe in those first few years after graduate school, something lit up, something sparked, and you said to yourself, I want to keep going and I want to go and become a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head?

Edie Lerner [00:02:35]: Yeah, I started my journey at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and I truly loved learning. I've always enjoyed the sciences most specifically. And I kind of went into undergrad knowing that I wanted to do more higher education afterwards. So I didn't know what that looked like exactly for me. I knew it was something in the healthcare field. I grew up in older adult homes, which my mom works for a company in long term care. And I knew I wanted to continue my journey supporting patients and supporting people through their healthcare experiences. And I didn't know what that looked like for me at the time.

Edie Lerner [00:03:13]: I was very young, 18 years old, and I joined Alpha Epsilon Delta, which is a pre health honor society at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And I got to hear other people's experiences. They were pre med or they were pre pa, which is ultimately what I decided to go into. And I really wanted to make sure that I was ready as a human to go into graduate school because it is a big commitment, education wise, time wise, financially. And so after I graduated from U of M in Ann Arbor, I took about two and a half years off. I worked on my PA school applications, I worked on getting direct patient care with others, and I even was a teaching assistant for a little bit in Denver, which was an amazing experience. And finally, when I went to apply to graduate school, I said, I feel comfortable who I am as a person and I feel ready and capable of taking on this huge next step. So while I knew I wanted to go to graduate school and undergrad, it wasn't until I really worked on myself outside of education and outside of being a student to know I was ready to be a graduate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:21]: So going through that process and finally figuring out, okay, this is the cycle that I'm going to be applying in. And if you haven't applied to PA school, physician assistants apply in a cycle. So that means that at one point in the year, all PA programs will open up their applications. You apply during that cycle, and then you're considered for the next start period for that program. That could be in the fall, it could be in the winter. There's lots of different times. So talking back at that cycle, Edie, you decided it was time you decided to put in the application. Well, when you applied, I'm sure that you had done some research and started to figure out for yourself what programs do I really want to apply to? Because there's many different physician assistant programs out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]: And getting into a PA program is quite competitive and there's a lot of applicants. So talk to me about how did you whittle that list down? How did you identify which schools you were going to apply to? And ultimately how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Edie Lerner [00:05:22]: Yeah, that's a great question. Applying to PA school and getting into PA School is a whole feat in itself. So when I was applying, I really valued programs that were close to home. I'm from Farmington Hills, Michigan, which is about an hour away from Flint. And I knew PA school is an incredibly treacherous journey. Learning and being in uncomfortable situations. And I wanted to be able to have my support system close to me. It's so important that I'm able to go home on the weekend to see my mom for dinner.

Edie Lerner [00:05:53]: And just that really kept me sane throughout my school journey so far. Other things about the University of Michigan Flint specifically I really valued was some of the pillars of our program which are leadership and advocacy. I still work on Perfect Pair, which is a national nonprofit, as the director of chapters. And we work to pair college students with older adults living in long term care facilities to combat loneliness and isolation. And the University of Michigan Flint in my PA program has an entire leadership and advocacy project that we actually get to start working on this summer, which I'm very excited for, where we get to go out into the community and do more research and outreach in an area that we're interested in. And so that was one part of the program that was really aligned with my goals and values. Especially because being a leader and being an advocate not only for patients but also for community in more public health spaces is something that is incredibly valuable to me personally. Another thing that I really loved was the fact that we do integrated service learning in our program.

Edie Lerner [00:07:00]: So embedd one of our courses. We are assigned to go to different community bases. So right now, or actually it just finished because we're going into our clinical phase, but we would go into the hospital and participate in the Hurley Help program, which is also supporting older adults who are admitted to the hospital and combating delirium. And so we would visit with them, sit with them. I love to play uno with the patients that I got to see as long as they wanted to and just hear their stories and be there as another support system outside of their Healthcare staff as a volunteer. And so I think especially with my previous experiences in undergrad and throughout my gap years and in PA school, really being able to serve for the community in a volunteer capacity, getting us prepared to serve the community as a PA has been really valuable to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Every student that goes to graduate school has to go through some type of transition for themselves because going through an undergraduate education you're taught in one way, there's certain expectations and the expectations are not the same as the type of expectations that you would get, especially, especially in a health related program where there is a high caliber of learning that has to happen with hands on experience and being able to show mastery. So talk to me about for yourself, as you were transitioning into your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you've continued through not only the first term but your second term and beyond, what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout the journey thus far?

Edie Lerner [00:08:35]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to some degree it just happens in PA school specifically, a lot of the jargon surrounding it is that you do not learn the same and you cannot learn the same as you did in undergrad. And I completely back that statement. The reason is we are given so much content and so much learning and so much information because the future of our specific career is supporting people and saving people's lives. And there is so much information that comes with the human body and anatomy. And so with getting that amount of information, you cannot learn the same. So in undergrad I reviewed, I read over things I highlighted and going into BA school, if you try to rewrote, rewrite one PowerPoint, you will, it'll take you three days and that sets you back immensely for studying. So one part of my growing has been academically and learning that active learning, flashcards, doing practice exams that you either find on a website or that you create yourselves are the way that success comes.

Edie Lerner [00:09:40]: So really learning how to learn and relearning how to learn as a graduate student has been a big part of my journey as well as knowing in being confident in who I am and knowing when it's time to take a break. I think my first semester of PA school, I have never studied so much in my life. I studied 10 to 12 hours a day, even if we were in lectures. And I became incredibly burnt out, which was a scary feeling because it was my first semester and we had a long road to go until graduation. So after that first semester I decided to make it a point that I would do one thing either with my friends and family or for myself in a week. And that is something I have continued to maintain and hope to maintain throughout my clinical education. Because it is so important to take a step back and know that you can't be studying 24 hours a day. It's impossible.

Edie Lerner [00:10:29]: And so learn how you need to learn, as well as maintaining some mental health and connection to your community and support systems that have been there along the way for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:39]: So, speaking about burnout, I want to delve into that a little bit because you're not the first individual that has talked about having to deal with burnout as they go through a graduate degree. Talk to me about the warning signs that you recognized in yourself or that others recognized in you, and what did you have to do to be able to not only get through that point, but you just mentioned some of the things you had to change, but what were other things that you had to change to be able to make sure that that burnout didn't keep reeling its head?

Edie Lerner [00:11:09]: Yeah, burnout is incredibly real, especially in health care. I mean, we are serving people every day. We're talking to people, you know, we're learning every single day still. And so some of the signs I saw was my partner would talk to me and they would say, hey, you know, like, you don't seem okay. I haven't seen you smile in two days. And when you're in the thick of it, studying for four exams that happen within the time span of three days, it's really hard to figure out what you need to do to get over that hurdle. So for me specifically, I took the time during my break between my first semester and second semester to say, okay, I don't want to get into that hole again. I don't want to feel the way I felt during that specific exam week.

Edie Lerner [00:11:52]: What are some things that I can implement actively so that I feel prepared and I feel that I have studied enough while I'm still maintaining my own mental health and the things I need to do to stay happy and stay excited to learn and stay excited to be uncomfortable in new learning environments. So I also implemented. I would Never study past 10:30pm 9:00pm and 10:00pm was a little too early for me, but 10:30 was my cutoff, and I also made sure to do that one thing a week. Another thing I did was study actively earlier. So it wasn't until the end of my first semester where I started to understand what my learning looks like to give me success in my exams and in my Patient evaluations. So I started studying for my exams the day that we walked into the classroom. So there wasn't many full days off, but there was a lot of days that I was studying for less hours so that that burnout wouldn't build upon itself, which within such a short time of cramming. Because if I got to the point where I had to cram again, that's when things really started going downhill for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: One of the other things that I guess that I would ask is this, because being in a program that does have a lot of expectations, and as you are entering into a program, you're still a friend, a daughter, maybe a significant other, you wear a lot of hats, you're a student, and wearing all of those different hats draws from your time, draws from your effort. And you have to figure out where is that optimal balance? What did you have to do to be able to find that balance for yourself? Whether it was with school, work, family, personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school thus far?

Edie Lerner [00:13:37]: Yeah, all of those different hats are so important when you are just living your life. So while I was preparing to go to graduate school, I knew this was two and a half years of my life that I needed to put myself first and put my education first. And so I had a lot of conversations before I even began the program, talking with my family and with my friends, saying, hey, here's my week off. That happens in five months. I would love to set a time to see you and talk to you then, but before then, I'm not sure what my capacity will look like. And that is a really hard conversation to have. And sometimes people didn't take it as seriously. I remember Visit vividly, one of my family members, they said, oh, don't be dramatic.

Edie Lerner [00:14:22]: You'll be fine. I'll see you the same amount of time. And that's okay if that's what they need to hear. But I have set those boundaries for myself. And it was really important to set those boundaries so that when I had to say no to a family obligation, that wasn't something important enough for me to miss studying or miss an exam. I could call back to that time and say, hey, this is something I let you know before I started the program. And I have to put my education first and I have to put my studying first. With that being said, I personally have never had to miss something that was important to me to go to and that my family needed me to show up to, whether that meant having a little bit later of a night or an earlier morning to study.

Edie Lerner [00:15:04]: Those expectations that I put on myself to be there for my family still maintained. It just looked a little bit different than maybe it would have in the past where I had to leave an event earlier or just wake up earlier to study.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]: You've been on campus now for about a year and a half and as you said, you've dealt with different things, whether it be burnout or other issues. Were there any campus resources or student organizations that really help you do to help you support your success in their journey?

Edie Lerner [00:15:31]: Thus far, 100%. I don't think as a graduate student you could survive just by yourself on an island. Specifically the Merchi Science Building. It's not a particular organization, but it is a place and I lived there for my didactic education. I really loved utilizing the whiteboards and USAN has a coffee shop and also food that I would go to often on the weekends. In the morning when I was studying on Saturday, it would be, I'm gonna go, but I'm gonna get a coff. It got me there and it helped me start my day. Also in our PA program we have such wonderful faculty.

Edie Lerner [00:16:06]: Professor Falls, Professor Moore. They are only an email away or even a phone call away if it's an emergency. And I really think that them having such an open door policy to support their students has been life changing. As a PA student, when the education is so complicated, if I do have a question or if I need some emotional support for a tough time because life does not stop when you're in graduate school. They're always there and that's been a really wonderful resource.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: What specific skills would you say that you had to develop most in graduate school?

Edie Lerner [00:16:38]: Yeah, the first skill that comes to mind is adaptability. Every day does not look the same and every exam doesn't look the same. And we are constantly changing what we're learning in terms of body system. If we're learning about the heart versus learning about the lungs, things that worked in one area of studying doesn't look the same in the next area of studying. And so really being able to to adapt to different learning styles and systems, even within the program itself has been really important as well as adapt. I am so uncomfortable sometimes in my program in the best way possible. We talk to standardized patients a lot, so being able to shift and adapt depending on what they're saying and completely new situations that we've never been in. Our last standardized patient was a large surprise to a lot of our cohort.

Edie Lerner [00:17:25]: So really being able to adapt in the moment, in seconds in the room with the patient of what you're talking about and what you're expected to do as a PA student, I think has been vital.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:34]: And I already heard you talk about those first exams and burnout and things like that. Was there any other defining moments or turning points within your education thus far that really have shaped either your academic journey or your professional journey for where you're at right now?

Edie Lerner [00:17:50]: I think it really comes with just trusting the process. I can't pick out a particular moment, but I am not the same person I was when I stepped into graduate school. There are so many skills and lessons and professional developments that happen within PE school, and I think it happens within every single exam and within every single patient interaction, and by meeting and leaning on an entire group of 50 new students. And so instead of one moment, I think it's just a journey. And we hear it a lot in our program. Trust the process. Trust the process. Trust the process.

Edie Lerner [00:18:26]: And it's so true, because we are being built on a knowledge base, but also just a professional base of how to speak to somebody else from the medical field who you've never worked with before. And now you get on a call with them and they're telling you all these things about a patient that you've never met. And now you have to learn how to respond back. And so, especially being in a graduate program where we're being taught to be healthcare providers, we have to be taught interprofessional skills as well. And so not only academically, but also professionally, it's a growing process through all of those little assignments that we're given and through our interprofessional education, education and really learning how to be a healthcare provider in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:09]: Have you found that you built specific relationships with faculty or peers that were especially impactful? And if so, how?

Edie Lerner [00:19:17]: My best friend in the program, her name is Emily. She is my lifeline. She is my partner in crime. We studied almost every single day together throughout the program, and I truly do not think I would have made it this far without her. So we do a lot of. Of delegating in terms of who does what to make our study materials, because it takes a lot of time in some ways. So she creates all of our quizlets, and I create our charts that go to all of the different diseases as well as our practice questions that we both use. And so without her and without being able to lean on my community, I wouldn't have been able to pass my exams.

Edie Lerner [00:19:55]: There's no way we bounce off each other in Ideas and questions, questions. One of my favorite things we do while we're studying is to just say, can I ask a dumb question? Because it's real and you need somebody and you need support and you need to be able to ask questions. And I think that's really important in grad school as well as our professors. I mean, all of them are super open to asking questions. But Professor Moore is someone we had throughout our entire first year of didactic education, and I really appreciated his learning stuff style in terms of sometimes he said, you're gonna have to learn this on your own, and here's the information I give you. But you're in graduate school, and so when you have questions, come to me. And we learned. And you have to learn, because when you're a provider and a PA out in the field and you're seeing a patient and you've never heard of this disease before, you're gonna have to go do research, and then you can ask questions later.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]: As you think back to the beginning and where you were when you first started graduate school, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Edie Lerner [00:21:01]: I think really, it's just that you can do it, you will do it, and if you're passionate enough, anything is possible. And I think that graduate programs and getting a graduate degree is so worth it. And personally, something that I really value in higher education and the amount of growing I've done academic, academically, and professionally is so profound. And the amount of things I learned has been amazing and incredible, and I'm just really grateful for this journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]: And again, as you look back at your graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education, Whether it's becoming a physician assistant, going to business school, going into a technological field, whatever it might be that would help them find success sooner?

Edie Lerner [00:21:49]: Yeah, I think my number one is write down why you're here before you start. I wrote it down on a sheet of paper, and I pulled it out every once in a while when I needed a little bit of motivation. Going through a tough exam week, I think it's really important to know and really have an idea of the reasons you're here and the reasons you're doing this. And if those are the right reasons, then it will get you through. I also think finding success looks really different for every single person. And so being able to have a support system that can really cheer you on throughout that success. Success has been wonderful and something I've really leaned on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]: Well, Edie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing the ups, the downs, and everything in between. And I think from what you've shared, it's not always going to be roses, it's not always going to be easy, but it's worth it. And as you said, everybody's here, they've been admitted, they can do this. So always have to remember that. And I love that. And I just want to say good luck as you move into your next phase of the PA program, as you're getting out into the clinics and doing, doing all of this other really exciting work that you're going to be able to now take what you've been learning for the past year and a half and putting it into practice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: I'm excited for you, but also excited to hear how it goes. And I just want to say I wish you all the best.

Edie Lerner [00:23:11]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful being able to share a little bit of my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Are you contemplating graduate school or already on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" offers an inspiring and practical guide to thriving in higher education, featuring the remarkable story and expert advice of Dr. Khalid Malik, Director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity at the University of Michigan-Flint.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode unfolds with Dr. Khalid Malik's path from his undergraduate studies in Pakistan to becoming a leader in cybersecurity in the U.S. The conversation reveals the power of perseverance, mentorship, and adaptability in achieving academic and professional goals.

The Power of Motivation and Mentorship

Early in the episode, Dr. Khalid Malik credits his family and professors with instilling the value of continuous education, sharing how their support pushed him beyond a bachelor's degree and set him on a global academic path. Their influence helped him pursue a master's, followed by a PhD abroad, despite lucrative job offers after his initial graduation. The takeaway? Seek encouragement from your community and mentorship to fuel your ambition, even when the easier path seems tempting.

Embracing Interdisciplinary Research

A key theme is the importance of interdisciplinary learning. Dr. Khalid Malik emphasizes that true innovation often lies at the intersections of fields. He shares examples from his own lab, where projects combine AI, computer science, biology, and engineering to solve complex problems like brain disease diagnostics. For students, he advises: build strong fundamentals and remain open to broad, cross-disciplinary work—this not only enriches your education but also enhances your impact and career prospects.

The Role of Agility and Communication

Moving overseas for his PhD demanded rapid adaptation. Dr. Khalid Malik candidly recounts overcoming language barriers and cultural differences through "agility" and a willingness to listen and learn. He stresses the power of effective communication: expressing your ideas clearly, welcoming feedback, and being persistent when reaching out to faculty opens doors otherwise missed.

Navigating the Future with AI

A timely takeaway centers on the evolving landscape of technology, especially AI. Dr. Khalid Malik urges students not to fear AI, but to learn its strengths and limitations, integrating it as a tool rather than seeing it as a replacement. Understanding how to work alongside new technologies is, he argues, essential for future-proofing your career.

Encouragement to Prospective Students

For anyone eyeing grad school, Dr. Khalid Malik and Dr. Christopher Lewis offer essential advice: stay curious, leverage mentorship, embrace interdisciplinary opportunities, and never hesitate to raise your hand for new experiences. Graduate school is more than academics—it's about growth, adaptability, and building meaningful connections.

If you're seeking motivation, actionable tips, or simply want to hear a candid success story, don't miss this episode of "Victors in Grad School." Listen in and take your next step toward graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I am here to walk alongside you as you are going through this graduate school journey that you're on now. You might be at the very beginning, just starting to touch the I place in the sense of being able to figure out what you want to do. Or maybe you already applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Doesn't matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do right now, this minute to help you in being successful on the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. That's why this podcast is here, to help you, to walk alongside you and to provide you with some tools for your toolbox to be able to help you, to be able to learn from others along the way that that have done this and will help you in the journey that you're on. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share the experiences that they had to help you in the experiences that you're going to have. And this week, again, we've got another great guest. Khalid Malik is with us today. And Dr. Malik is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:21]: He works within our cybersecurity program here and is the director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experience and to learn a little bit more about his graduate journey to share that with you. Khalid, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:01:37]: Thank Chris for this opportunity. It's my pleasure to join your podcast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today, and I always start these interviews with an opportunity to go back in time. And I love turning the clock back a little bit to get a little bit better sense of who you were before versus where you are right now. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in Pakistan and you did your undergraduate, you did your master's work in Pakistan. You went off, you worked for a bit, and then you went and you decided to go even further. But I want to go back to when you were a student in Pakistan working on that undergraduate degree. You could have probably stopped at a bachelor's Degree you could have stopped there, but you decided to keep going. Bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I want to keep going. I want to keep going and get that master's degree and then we'll talk about your doctorate degree.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:27]: Excellent. So Chris, I must give a credit to the society where I was raised. Actually there was a lot of value of higher education for me. There was a no choice except to continue. Let me put it straightforward. Particularly my parents would never ever allow me to go directly into the job. So they gave me option that, you know, if you think you can do a job and do a master together, certainly you should do it. But graduate, getting a graduation and going for higher education, particularly abroad is very important.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:59]: They encouraged me and I myself was highly motivated. I was lucky enough that I got acceptance in for my PhD from seven schools. But it all happens because of the motivation provided by my parents and my, my, my professor. So yeah, I never thought of stopping even when I started my bachelor. And I. One of the thing that I learned from one conversation that, that you know, some conversations make a lot of impact for your future career. I was planning to go to medical school and I was on the borderline. The total score was required to get into the medical school was 829 out of thousand and I was having eight.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:03:40]: But there was six candidate who were having 829. So I waited for six months to get into the medical school and I, I couldn't go into it. And I was sitting with all these big physicians and one of the person just asked me that you know what really you want to do if you don't go into medical school. I said I have opportunity in many fields, particularly veterinary medicine and so on. Is like then why you are not going? I said I want to do something interdisciplinary medical. I can do an interdisciplinary. I can bring math, I can bring statistic. I don't what other field I can do it.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:04:13]: And one of the person, he just says as a joke, he is a very famous New Jersey neurosurgeon now in New Jersey he said to me look at the flip side. Computing program also offer interdisciplinary. I said how? He says like someone has to develop a programs for medicine too. So why don't you if you're good in both and you know how to connect the dots, why don't you look at perspective of going into the computer science. So that was first my motivation that I will not do only bachelor in computer science. I will go for advanced studies as well. Because then I can probably Better leverage on my skills. I knew from my high school that I'm really good in interdisciplinary stuff.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Now. I know that you went, you got your master's degree and then you went off and you did work and you worked in industry for a little bit of time and at some point that itch came back. You wanted to keep, keep going. You and you decided that you wanted to continue your education and you ended up going and getting a ph. And I guess bring me to that point, because you're out in industry, you're doing great work, you're creating things, you're building things, you're doing things. And I'm guessing making an okay salary to live and being able to do that. But then you flip the script and you make a choice that you want to do something to expand your own knowledge and to push yourself to the next level. So talk to me about that.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:05:41]: Sure. So I must say that when I finished my master thesis, my salary was among 1% of the top candidate. If I could have just tried to settle down, this was a possibility. But that was never the goal. So even when I started my first year, I started writing research papers. I was trying to collaborate with the professors that, you know, I want to do this thing. And many more people were saying, you still just finish a master, you are not a PhD candidate, why you want to do a research. I was trying to explain my long term goals to them, that that's the reason I want to start research and my master.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:18]: I was the first person in the university who published paper in journal. Many people were publishing only on conference. I was first one who published it. And that also gave me a little bit of encouragement that I can do that. So I started applying. I got acceptance from six or seven schools. And then I was kind of confused that what should I do, how should I select, what school should I go to? So I talked to my dad and he asked me that why don't you talk to your uncles as well, because they are famous neurosurgeons and highly successful. I said, I will definitely ask everyone, but what are your thoughts? So he told me that, you know what, try to go somewhere where you can not learn your research.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:56]: You can learn something from society, but at the same time there should be peace of mind as well. I said, dar, you are bringing in these features or criteria that I never have thought. I was thinking I should pick the best of the best lab and where I can publish it, what is has to do with the culture and other things. He says, no, you learn a lot from your surroundings too. You are not learning only from the books. And said what do you mean by staying in a peaceful society? He said look, if you can't focus on something due to any reason, say the law and our situation is not good or there are some other social issues, you will not be able to very be very productive. I said that's interesting perspective. So I gave him a list.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:07:37]: He says what is your choice? I have respect for all the institute who gave me opportunity. I'm not mentioning the name of institutes but I'm mentioning the name of country. One of the top 1 kind of institute was from Singapore and than Thailand. I thought I told my dad these are my top schools and then there is two in United States. But they are not giving me a fully funded. They are giving me, you know like a 25% effort or something. I and that time I was unable to understand what does 25% and 30% effort mean. So I showed to my dad and he says like first two options are out.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:05]: I said why? Why they're out? They are the best school. Look at the QS ranking and it's like tell me all the options. I showed him the option that government of Japan is also offering me this scholarship and he says oh this looks really good. I said then there is a one university in Austri and one in Germany. And he said why you picked, you know, this institute from Singapore? I said I only look at the QS ranking, I don't know anything else. So he said that's not how you should making decision. First talk to the people instead of asking them that you know what school you should do, you should ask them that what criteria should be to select this and the reason why I'm bringing this one. I know many of the students are going to listen.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:44]: I hear same mistakes from other students. They pick pick the schools only based on the ranking without thinking that you know what kind of professor you are going to deal with, how successful he is, what kind of personality he has and more importantly where you are going, how peaceful the situation is or overall working environment and so on. So I developed this idea and you know, after talking to a lot of people I my dad particularly said you will learn a new language and new culture as well. So that's why I think you should go to the Japan and it's very peaceful country too. So this is how I ended up going to the Tokyo Institute of Technology. But the process also was a miracle for me. Of course we don't have a time I will share with you the story some other time. But yeah, this is how I ended up going into Turkey Institute and that was an amazing experience as of today, you know, I truly enjoy the bond that I have.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:09:33]: Probably you are aware that, you know, I brought first International industry project here, which we still are doing it, right? That is coming from one of the Japanese cybersecurity company. So. And still I enjoy a lot of connections, even my startup first client. By the way, my startup is supported by the University of Michigan. So our first client client is the government of Japan again. So the. The reason I'm sharing these with the thing is that sometime we should try to do risky things and try to do something that or people are not doing it because then you can reduce the competition that you will feel in rest of the world. So the Japanese connection has significantly impacted my research success both here as well as in Oakland University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:16]: At every level of education you have to kind of figure out for yourself what it means to be successful. And you found success in the journey that you went on. You got the master's degree, you went and you got your PhD and you've gone on from there. And I guess as you look back at your master's degree at your PhD and the transitions that you had to go through, what did you have to do at both the master's and the doctorate? And it might be different for both. What did you have to do at both of those levels to be able to first set yourself up for success as you were starting in the program and then what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degrees?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:10:59]: Great question, Chris. Again, if someone think, and sometimes my students think that you are very successful. And even I would say that my colleagues from Ann Arbor and Dearborn campus, you know, they also appreciate that having a startup in U of M fl, this is something that is unheard of. And these things I always tell people that I'm lucky enough, I'm blessed that I am surrounded by good mentor as well as my student. So I got a advice from one of my uncle who is a board of trustee in Henry Ford. He just said me one thing. I was in Japan and I was frustrated that, you know, I work up to 1am and I come back early morning around 8am this is how Japanese culture work. He says, remember one thing, why you are doing this? I said, I have set a lot of goals and I showed him a list that I want to publish this one.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:11:46]: He says, then why there is a stress if you have these goals, are you achieving these goals? I said, I believe so. I mean 80% of the milestone that I said I'm achieving it. He says, then why you are not happy? I said to him, I don't know why I'm not happy. He said, curiosity and hunger for doing a lot of thing is a great thing. But content is also very important. If you achieve something, celebrate it, remain content. If you fail on one or two occasions, you know, accept that and use that failure as an opportunity to learn something and try to, you know, do something big. So I always try to set a goal and then, you know, I try my best to remain content as well.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:28]: So that these two things have helped me a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Did you find as you went into either of those degrees, did you find that you had to change the way in which you either learned change the way in which you approached your work that helped you to find success?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:44]: Absolutely. I mean you can imagine that going into some, some place where you cannot understand a single word. On day one, because I never studied Japanese before entering into the Japan, I take a six month of intensive Japanese classes to learn the Japanese. At same time I, I was lucky that professor allowed me to sit in the lab because I was curious more on doing research than language or want to do both in parallel. So it was first six months was very difficult. But what I learned from my Japanese friends, science particularly lab mate, that in this country you have to be super agile, Even you are 100 year old. I said what does that mean? I mean when we are above 70 or 80, how we can be agile. And this is, this is how this society work.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:13:27]: So one of the my lab mate who was in 70s by the way, he was doing PhD, he was in 17, he was the director of Japan Railway. So he gave me this advice that you need to be super agile. And I said to him what do you mean? He said look, this professor are also going to expect. He's asking you do your research, but he's asking you to put him in as a Hitachi project. So if you will be only focusing on one thing and not another and you are not agile, you will not be successful in this society. You will get your pit. So there were a lot of challenge, but again I was good listener so I tried to be super agile. I was working with Hitachi to learn it and that later on helped me to give a job in Panasonic.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:14:03]: Soon I finished my PhD and then I went for a consultancy as well for one or two years before moving here. So agility has helped me a lot. Definitely there were A lot of challenges, language barrier, culture barriers. But with the help of my colleagues and my, this trait of being a good listener and pushing myself, I was able to navigate those challenges. And even today I feel like doing a PhD in Japan was not a bad idea at all because I learned the language, I learned the culture, and I learned a lot of the good habits that even I have right now that those, those things help me to be more productive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, as you think about that. And I know you now are a professor and you've been, you've gone, you've worked at other institutions and you're, you're a professor here at the University of Michigan Flint as well. And you work with graduate students that are on their own journeys. Talk to me about what you have to do as you are trying to help your students to find that success that you found in your own journey. And what are some of the things that you tell to your students as they're starting their graduate journey?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:11]: I focus on two things a lot. First of all, again, I have the biggest lab. Probably 80% of PhD students of U of M Flint belongs to my lab. Three postdocs, I'm having a very big lab. I told them two things and even when I bring them, I test these two. Number one, what about their fundamental, are they really good in the fundamental of the research that they want to do? And second thing is, are they truly interested in interdisciplinary research or not? Right. So for example, in our lab there are three very big projects. One of the project is we are applying the AI on the brain diseases.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:45]: So I tell students, if you are not willing to study the vascular system of the brain, you should not be participating in it. It's not that, you know, we are just doing this project for sake of getting something done. It's truly interdisciplinary. It has aspect of the mechanical engineering, it has aspect of the neurosurgery, it has aspect of the computer science and AI and it has the impact of aspect of the biology. My job is as a professor to lay down the surface that is very interdisciplinary in nature. So you guys can play for long time because you can look from very different angles and it will help you to publish sooner. But if you will look into vertically only, it's not truly interdisciplinary or multi disciplinary project, your chances of publication will be lower. And more importantly, yes, you will be maybe very successful or you will be expert in a certain field, but you will be very difficult to become a leader in industry even if you're going in academia.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:16:47]: I take my own example. I was Able to have a startup. Right? Right. Many people are unable to do that because you can then link, okay, how to apply this research into another discipline. So therefore, the pageant for interdisciplinary research is very important. And before that, you should have a strong fundamentals. If you are relying on the crutches of AI to do a strong research, I doubt that those students will be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:13]: Now, I know that as you go into a new institution, as you're a new student, there definitely is some deference that you have towards your faculty members. It's a little scary for a new graduate student as they're entering into a new environment in trying to build those relationships with faculty members. You've been there, you've had to do that yourself as your own, as a student yourself. Now you are a faculty member. What would you say to new graduate students as they are trying to build those strong relationships with their faculty members? And how would you encourage them to move forward in building those?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:17:48]: I always advise students. Number one, if you are not getting response immediately from faculty member, don't give up, up. Number two, everyone appreciate a good research, no matter how busy they are. Many people think that having a startup, I have this big lab with three postdoc and you know, six PhD students on. But I listen to everyone. But there is a different way of listening. I don't have a time to sit with them. I say, let's walk together and have a discussion.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:14]: And those students I who are very passionate and they are willing to learn, even they are not very strong compared to many of the students who are working in lab and who are, for example, paid 50% effort or some of them 60%. I asked those students that come not only talk to me, talk to these postdoc and PhD students as well, be observer. So it's very important that you should not hesitate to speak with the people. You should show your passion. Yes. Sometime people like myself, like, you know, this person cannot do a lot of research. But we always give opportunities to those who have a passion of learning. So if students are shy, why and they are not expressing themselves that they want to learn, they will not be able to get opportunities.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:59]: So that's my first advice that I was successful. Believe me, I did half of my thesis going in escalator and elevators with the one professor who was very famous and he was not having a time. I always used to tell him, I will tell you what I did in a week when you are going from his company to 10th or 11th floor where there was institute for teaching as well. So getting someone's time. Expressing your opinion and passion is very important and all graduate students, particularly international students, should be doing this. That's a very important thing. Second thing I always tell students, look, we have a limited opportunities. Everyone wants to get a gsrs.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:19:40]: I tell students, prove yourself in a class. We don't have any litmus paper to say you will do best or not. So when we are assigning your project in the class, if you'll do best, believe me, I will approach you. You need not to come to me. If you are interested in going someone's lab, take the class of professor and do really well in the projects. So this is a second bit of the piece that I can give to my graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:02]: That's a great piece of advice and one that I continuously am trying to give to students as I do different webinars and have different opportunities to be able to talk to students. Because what I try to tell students is if you are not able to get a graduate assistantship right from the get go, when you're in class, your faculty members are going to have opportunities for you and they're going to ask people for their help, they're going to ask for volunteers and if your hand is the first one up, up every time, they're going to remember you. So when there are opportunities that do exist, who are they going to come to? And so that does bring up some different things in my mind in regards to as you think back to your own graduate experiences and you think back to the opportunities that you took advantage of, maybe they weren't the ones that you thought you were going to do. Talk to me a little bit about that and how doing just that by putting your hand up, by saying pick me, yes, I'm there. How did that open up other doors for you?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:20:59]: I will relate this with again one of my examples. So one of my experience in the Japan for one or two years I was struggling to understand the direction that my professor want me to pursue because I'm very hesitantly saying hopefully he is not going to listen to this interview. So I was having a firm opinion that my ideas are better than my professor ideas. And I was talking constantly to my colleagues and postdoc that look, what professor is saying to me me is not making much sense. I have much better ideas. And one of my colleague who's from China, he says then improve your ability to communicate. I said well, I can't speak a fluent Japanese, I don't know how to do it. He said that's not truly a barrier.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:21:41]: I said, then what do you mean by that? He's like, look, when you present it, you have a one guy who is half Japanese, half Australian, and he is a big supporter of your research. Why don't you present together? So communication is the key. It took me two years. It was the just the way of presenting to someone. That guy. I again is highly appreciative of that guy who is now very successful. He has a big company. Other day I saw he has more than 700 employees.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:10]: So he helped me a lot how to communicate to the people from the different cultures, right? And particularly my ideas were better understood by my professor. So to answer your questions knows it's very important that you know, you understand other people's point of view and try to communicate your thoughts in a way and work with those people rather than always thinking that you are superior to other people or you are inferior to other people. I took this opportunity, I was not shy or some of my other colleagues says, oh, when you will present with his name as Hama, you know, Professor Will Tungi. It's his idea. So in the start I said in my broken Japanese that professor, these are my ideas. I was trying to communicate it. But today you have to listen to both of us. And then similarly, when the opportunity came in to work in Panasonic, right.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:57]: I was initially hesitant. Is my Japanese skill enough to work in industry? I only know how to purchase a ticket, how to buy the food, and how to communicate with my colleagues in industry how is things are going to work. And I talked to a couple of other professors and I went to international office in my university and those people says, you can just give a shot. Why don't you go and give a presentation? So wherever I presented it, it initially it felt like very challenging. But you know, end of day, someone has to get to that position. We have to go with that mindset and we should keep on trying. And that's why I kept on trying. And even the society where, you know, I was not a native speaker, actually I'm not a native speaker.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:23:41]: Essentially my, my Japanese Skill was not JLPT level 3 or 4, which wasn't needed in industry. But I was successful because I was telling them what values I can bring in on, on the, on the project. So it' I agree with you. It's very essential that, you know, we should raise your hand and we should tell people what value we can bring in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:01]: You've given a lot of pieces of advice today. You've talked about your own experience and as you think back to your Own graduate school experience. And you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be cybersecurity, business, health or some other area. What are some tips that you might offer them, these individuals that are thinking about graduate school that would help them find success soon sooner.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:24:22]: I think first of all we should look into how our societies are going to evolve in future. For example, these days AI is going to play a crucial role, right? So many people are afraid that you know what? Why should I go into the cyber security education? I'm giving a one example of cybersecurity. Same is true about computer science these days as well that when AIs particularly say the anthropic models are going to write all the code, how are we going to find the jobs? A lot of people have this question and this is a very valid question. Many top schools, including ucla, Ann Arbor campus, their number of application in computer science are decreasing mainly because of one concern. But the question that we should really have, particularly as a new graduate student is how are we going to work with AI? Rather than thinking that AI is going to replace us or we are going to replace AI, right? That's a fundamental. All of us, I mean when writing proposal lecture, we are interacting with AI. Students have to learn that know first of all what are the strength of AI and what are the limitations of AI? Because I see a lot of students who think AI is more powerful than the student themselves, right? That's not true. They have to understand where AI struggles too.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:25:33]: So that's a number one piece because I don't see a future of work without the AI. So even if you are going in any program, you must be learning little bit of AI and understand how you can leverage your current work, your current projects and future work with AI. That's number one a suggestion I have for a student. Number two is think what AI cannot do and interdisciplinary stuff AI is not good at so far I'll give example because if I'll not give example, those of your listener was saying they may not understand. There is a aspect called cyber physical systems where. Where for example we are riding AI for robot or a car and so on, right? Wherever there is an interaction of the hardware, human is needed. So those fields, highly interdisciplinary field where AI is going to play a partial role role. Look at those fields and they are tremendous.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:26:27]: Number third tip that I will tell students. Don't be afraid that AI will replace you. AI is going to take you to the next level. All of us are working up to midnight and getting up early morning. Our work is not going to finish. And if you ask me what you want to do in 2023, I will tell you there were tens of things that I couldn't accomplish it. So with the power of AI, we are going to achieve much bigger goals than what you know we aspire now. So instead of take accepting this as a challenge, take AI as your companion, but understand its weakness and try to involve yourself in interdisciplinary field where AI has lot of limitations.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:06]: This is a question that is coming again and again. Really. Students from all disciplines come to me and ask this question, so I thought I should answer you indirectly as well. Those who didn't interact with me, they will also learn about my opinion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]: Well Dr. Malik, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:25]: Thank you so much Chris for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to talk to some other times as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Are you considering graduate school, juggling work, family, and community commitments, or wondering how to make it all fit together? This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes special guest Bernard Drew, business growth consultant at the Michigan Small Business Development Center, for an inspiring conversation about perseverance, prioritization, and the power of lifelong learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis sets the stage by reminding listeners that everyone's grad school journey looks different. Whether you're freshly accepted, deep in the trenches, or still deciding if it's the right move, each week's guest brings a unique perspective. This episode, however, is especially resonant for those returning to school after a significant break.

00:02:24 Bernard Drew shares his circuitous journey, going from a mechanical engineering undergrad, to working in business and ministry, to finally pursuing his MBA at Grand Valley State University nineteen years after his first degree. His turning point? A desire to serve more people, steward greater resources, and ensure he was as prepared as possible to give back to his community.

A central theme discussed is the reality of balancing responsibilities. Bernard Drew is candid about the challenge: "If I'm going to add something else to my slate of priorities and responsibilities, it may imply I have to take something off the slate for a season." 00:07:46 From time-blocking Sundays for study sessions at Red Robin, to stepping back from some community commitments, he emphasizes the importance of clearly defining your "glass balls" – those priorities you cannot drop – and making peace with temporary sacrifices.

The episode delivers actionable advice: Make the decision and the adjustments will follow; communicate boundaries and expectations with work and family; and don't underestimate the power of a strong support team. Even if you're returning to school after a long hiatus, leverage your lived experience and collaborate openly—you'll bring more value to the academic setting than you realize.

Ready to be inspired? Hear Bernard Drew's full story and practical advice for succeeding in graduate school by listening to this episode of "Victors in Grad School." It's a must-hear for anyone who dreams of more, but wonders how to make it happen.

Listen now and start writing your own victory story!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we are on a journey together as you are thinking about graduate school and you're trying to figure out what is next for you. And every week I love being able to talk to you because it is a journey. And no matter if you are just starting, maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Doesn't matter where you are in this journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: But there are things that you can do right now to be able to prepare yourself, to be able to get yourself ready for success now. And that's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to see graduate school from a little bit different perspective. And you can see graduate school through the experience that they had. This week. We've got another great guest. Bernard Drew is with us today. And Bernard is a business growth consultant at the Michigan Small Business Development Center. And Bernard has his own journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: He started his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and then went on and got an mba. And we'll be talking about that journey that he went on for himself. So I'm really excited to have him here. Bernard, thanks so much for being here today.

Bernard Drew [00:01:32]: Well, good morning. It's an absolute pleasure to be part of this discussion with you, and I'm probably even more honored because I wish I would have known this existed before I started my own journey and glad that you're providing this kind of platform from others before they get started on theirs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, as I said, I really am appreciative that you're being here now. What I want to do is I want to go back in time. And I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and after that, you. You went off. You got a lot of different experiences along the way that helped you kind of, I'm going to say, explore many different things in your career and careers per se. And at some point, at some point while you were working in the different jobs and the different careers that you've been in over the years, you came to a point where you made a decision that it was time to go back and it was time to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through Your head.

Bernard Drew [00:02:24]: Well, you set that stage very well. I think life has taken some interesting journeys. Undergrad was mechanical engineering. Summer before my freshman year, I had an internship at GM and I made my own business cards that looked exactly like the business cards of my supervisor so I would fit. And I was unapologetic for saying I was going to be the CEO of GM by the time I was 35. In that level of boldness and courage. And then life evolves and you come to discover. I enjoyed engineering.

Bernard Drew [00:02:51]: I did well with engineering, but I had a passion to want to really work in the daily lives of serving people. And so that post graduation journey evolved into a discovery that serving people dynamic in my life was working in ministry and working with people wherever they are in need of hope and a greater sense of identity and helping them to rediscover that for themselves, but also recognize while doing this, while serving people, the people that I'm serving, they're not my source, that there's other avenues for financial benefit, financial gain. And there became a desire to grow and discover business. And so for nearly 19 years after undergrad, that was the balance of my life was serving in ministry and operating in business with an emphasis in real estate. And when all said and done, as much as we had great momentum, I'm enjoying what we're doing. It was the revelation that there's more people that I want to be able to serve. There's greater impact I'd like to be able to make in the community. There are some programs that I would like to see supported and facilitated to better the lives of people.

Bernard Drew [00:03:53]: And if given the opportunity to steward hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of resources to support some community endeavors, last thing I would want is to be at the cusp of an opportunity to serve people in that capacity and for whatever reason be deemed ill prepared or ill equipped to properly steward those kind of funds at the detriment of the people that deserve to have those funds and those resources and programs allocated to them. And that's what prompted me to say, you know what? Here's an opportunity. Let me go ahead and get this mba. That's part of what sparked and prompted that course of direction 19 years after undergrad. It was a desire to want to be properly steward resources and better impact the lives of people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:31]: And I know that you chose to attend Grand Valley State university for your MBA and there are many MBAs all over the state of Michigan, all over the country and the world. So talk to me about that education journey for yourself and what Was it ultimately that made you decide to select Grand Valley when you identified that as your final choice?

Bernard Drew [00:04:54]: I think it's a profound question with an extraordinarily simple answer called money. I think that to be concise, I enjoyed my journey providing consulting services independently for small businesses and working in the real estate space, commercial real estate space, for years. And in the course of that journey, I discovered that the SBDC existed, began working with them closely, so closely that they invited me to consult with them as a contractor. And that evolved into an opportunity to work full time, time for our state hub at Grand Valley State, and just call it what it is. Part of the compensation plan is a tuition benefit. And so when all was said and done, that was the driving force that made that decision making pretty simple. And I'm sure like most people, there's an aspiration to better their lives. There's an aspiration to improve their capacity to bless their families and those that they serve and elevate themselves professionally.

Bernard Drew [00:05:47]: But when all said and done, I'm sure everyone has to at some point stop and evaluate what is the financial investment required to take this academic step and what is my plan for being able to generate a return on that investment, pay it back off and continue to flourish. That definitely was the nail got hit on the head that made that work for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:06]: Now, you already mentioned that it was 19 years from the time that you were in your undergrad to the time that you went into graduate school. And that's a lot of time to be able to get out of the student mode, we'll say, and being in that thought process, that thought zone of what it means to be a student, but saying that I know that you were successful in going through your graduate degree, you got the mba, you've gone on from there, so you found success in that graduate school journey for yourself. So I guess as you think back to entering into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do as you got into graduate school and went through graduate school to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Bernard Drew [00:06:54]: I think that's a great question. And again, it's one of those. I wish I would have had more insight before I started at that point of making the decision. It was just that. Just make the decision and go for it, Bernard. Don't overthink it. Don't overanalyze, don't over critique the unknown. The engineer in me sometimes wants to look at all the variables all the time and make sure everything Lines up and life doesn't just line up perfectly.

Bernard Drew [00:07:15]: It was just a decision. And as the pieces began to fall into place and it was a reality that this was going to take place, there was a need to rapidly begin to assess how do I balanced life? Now that I have integrated this new commitment of graduate school, and having been out of an academic environment for 19 years, for what I thought it was going to take to make room and time, I didn't nearly have the right perspective to understand how much time really was going to need to be allocated. And that was probably the single greatest challenge during and throughout the program was finding a way to, quote, unquote, find some balance. Because I've got a wife, two kids, community commitments, business commitment, work commitment. It was a lot. And so the biggest factor is if I'm going to add something else to my slate of priorities and responsibilities, it may imply that I have to take something off the slate for a season. And that was a very, very, very hard thing to embrace, let alone implement.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: Now, I know that you have completed your degree, you went off, you continued, you're still doing business growth consultation and have that skill base, that knowledge base under your belt right now. How do you see yourself utilizing what you learned in your MBA on a daily basis?

Bernard Drew [00:08:35]: No, that's great. As I prep for this, I'll also continue to spin off from that last question. I will say that journey navigating undergraduate school, and I just share this with anyone that's there. It takes time and giving yourself the space to reevaluate your own priorities so that you can confidently know what you're saying yes to and confidently know what you're saying no to is so incredibly important. And some of it you won't know until you get into it. But for the most part, I would highly encourage some reflective time to sit down and maybe jot down. These are the things that I prioritize and recognize which things. Yeah, I've heard this story.

Bernard Drew [00:09:12]: Somebody talked about if you're juggling in life and some of the balls are tennis balls, some are baseballs, but some are glass balls, you can drop a tennis ball, it's resilient, and you're juggling. You can drop a baseball and it'll rebound, it's resilient. But if you drop that glass ball, it breaks. And you've got to clearly define what are the unbreakable things, the unshakable things, the things that I cannot compromise as I have to pick and choose where my time is going to go. And so figuring out how to clearly define that and be okay if some of those other things fall and be okay with it and know that that was just the choice that you made. And so family, there was some sacrifice of time with family, but I didn't want that to be one of the glass balls that I allowed to break. That was something that had to be maintained. Certain commitments with work obviously had to be sustained.

Bernard Drew [00:09:55]: But I also say I had some conversations with my supervisor who was very well aware before I got into the process that there was a level understanding, accommodating if I couldn't make certain meetings or couldn't make certain evening events. Because I was committed to school, they understood and that helped to set the expectation. There were certain things again serving in community and ministry. I had to withdraw from a couple of boards I was on because I did not have the capacity during that time frame to serve them well and provide adequate time and energy towards my studies. And there were just some things that had to be dropped. But then at the appointed time I could choose if it was right after the program to go and pick some of those balls back up. And so I just want to encourage individuals that are listening and considering. It'd be worth your time to evaluate what's the priority, what are the things that you can compromise, the things that you can't and be okay that certain things are going to fall, but it's temporary, didn't have to be permanent and you'll be more confident when you've made that decision on purpose, what those things are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:49]: So you just talked about the fact that you had to kind of look at those priorities and you had to try to figure out how to balance those. Talk to me about what you ended up doing to be able to balance balance school, work, family and other responsibilities that you had to be able to maintain the success that you wanted in your graduate school journey.

Bernard Drew [00:11:08]: I would say one of the keys was time blocking, where I would just dedicate block off time for what is worth. Family knew on Sundays after church, pretty much one o' clock and afterward that they probably weren't going to see me. Typically I had a routine on Sundays. I actually would go to Red Robin. They'd have football on the TV and I would snap in the gear of studying and reading from Red Robin. I'd probably be there for an hour and a half, catching a half of a football game, eating and reviewing my notes, reviewing the game plan for what needed to be studied. I would have a team meeting probably about 8 o' clock that night with folks who were on within my cohort, that we had agreed to work together on certain projects together, and that in between time was a lot of my diligent prep time. Usually we had assignments that had to be submitted by 11:59pm on Sunday night.

Bernard Drew [00:11:56]: So Sunday was kind of like the crescendo. And that had to be time blocked, as well as some preliminary time blocks throughout the week that, hey, from this time to this time, I'm preparing for this class. From this time to this time, I'm preparing for that class. And ideally those time blocks at least gave me, I would say 80% of the time necessary, but then I'd have to squeeze in a lot of other time elsewhere. But that was one of the key pieces, blocking out that time, clear communication with those around me so that they would know that they're not being haphazardly left alone, but that this was the dedicated time and conversely, trying to create dedicated time blocks to spend with them as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:36]: And as you look back at your graduate education and you think about what you had to do, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Bernard Drew [00:12:48]: I think number one is definitely just make the decision. I don't know that there is a perfect time and a season for it. Make the decision. And once it's made, then it almost forces you to create the time blocking it almost forces you to do the prioritization in life. So just know that, get the application submitted and just get the process started. Even regards to finding capital, I'm over here considering starting this journey over again with the DBA program over at U of M Flint. And there's a reality that you know what need to align some game plans for the capital and align some plans for where the resource is going to come from and just take the next step. And I think that that's a big part of it.

Bernard Drew [00:13:24]: I would also encourage heavily one of the big lessons learned. I hadn't been in school in so long and when I did finish my undergrad, I was so glad to be finished. I kind of had an attitude like, get me out of here. I don't want to see you guys again. Mission accomplice, let's move on in life. But I'll just say it was a joy to discover that because I was in a program that was so specific to something, I had a passion, I enjoyed my classwork. I think the life and lived experience provided a lot of opportunity for the academic perspective to have the framework to be relevant based on lived experience. In a way that it made my classes that much more practical for me to embrace and understand.

Bernard Drew [00:14:03]: So if you've been out for a while, see that as an asset, not a liability. I was sitting in class with some classmates who were pretty much my daughter's age. I had a daughter who was in her undergraduate program at the same time that I was in my graduate program. And it's great to recognize and appreciate what each person brings to the table. Don't operate in isolation. Build a team, be collaborative, and learn to respect that more can be accomplished when working together. I think that was one of the greatest virtues when we really hit our stride in the program was when we had a solid team that we were working with and could confidently rely on certain people to carry certain legs of the race, respective assignments each week and projects. And that became more of a virtue over time.

Bernard Drew [00:14:48]: And if you're not accustomed to that, that's something I would encourage you to prepare your heart, your mind, even just your way of doing things for. Prepare yourself to work effectively and purposely with other people. It'll make the journey that much more impactful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:00]: Well, Bernard, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for all that you shared about the experiences that you've had. And I know that you, as you said, you're considering further education. So education never stops and you continue have to look for new ways to be able to challenge yourself. But I really appreciate you being here today and I wish you all the best.

Bernard Drew [00:15:19]: I greatly appreciate it. I'm grateful that you have this platform. And again, I just appreciate the encouragement, the practical perspective that it can give to those who are considering or are in their journey, and hope there's some inspiration that allows that journey to be all the more simpler. So thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

Are you contemplating a return to graduate school, or perhaps already in the thick of balancing higher education with work and family commitments? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School dives into the inspiring journey of Keith Poniers, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer at Hurley Medical Center, as he recounts what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school after years away from academia.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, this episode offers an honest, firsthand account of re-entering higher education more than two decades after earning an undergraduate degree. Keith Poniers reflects that it had been 26 years since he stepped into a classroom, and details how evolving career ambitions and executive opportunities motivated him to pursue an MBA (02:25). He candidly discusses the challenge of shaking off "school mode" and stepping into a new academic environment surrounded by both younger students and peers from diverse backgrounds (05:03).

A primary theme throughout the episode is the importance of resilience and adaptability. Keith Poniers openly shares the nerves that came with his first orientation, the adjustment to working alongside younger classmates, and the rapid pivot to online learning brought about by the pandemic (09:04). He credits supportive professors and a strong personal support system—including his wife—for helping him maintain balance and motivation during challenging times (07:28). Sacrificing leisure activities, managing work stress, and dedicating ample time to study were keys to his success, alongside the drive to meet his own high standards (08:37).

Listeners will find actionable advice woven throughout, especially for professionals considering graduate school. Keith Poniers emphasizes finding a program that fits your personal circumstances, preparing for a demanding time commitment, and being ready for collaborative, group-based learning environments (13:15). The episode is rich in reminders about the personal and professional rewards of graduate education, the value of maintaining motivation, and the necessity of adapting to new formats like online learning.

If you're seeking relatable insights and practical encouragement on the road to an advanced degree, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to hear Keith Poniers and Dr. Christopher Lewis explore the realities of balancing life, career, and education—proving that it's never too late to become a victor in grad school.

Ready to take the next step? Listen to the full episode and let their stories inspire your graduate journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. This is a great opportunity for us to be able to take a look at this journey that you've decided to explore or maybe that you're already on. Graduate school is definitely a journey. And no matter if you're just starting off, you're just starting to think about things, maybe you have applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: No matter where you are, this is a journey and it's leading you down that. That proverbial path toward the light at the end of the tunnel. And every week, I love to be able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to provide you with some tools for your toolbox, to give you some sense of how can you find success in this journey that you're on. That's why every week, I truly enjoy being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that can share the graduate journey that they went on. With you this week, we got another great guest. Keith Ponyers is with us today. And Keith is the vice president and chief financial officer at Hurley Medical center. And I am really excited to be able to have him here to talk to you about his own journey in education and to welcome him to the show.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Keith, thank you so much for being here today.

Keith Poniers [00:01:33]: Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time and look forward to sharing my experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations with a turn back in time. So I know that you did your undergraduate work at Indiana University and you went through that experience, you got your bachelor's degree in accounting, and then you went off, you went off, you worked, and you got a lot of different experiences in different types of companies in you. At some point along the way, I'm going to say, quite a ways down the path, you made a decision to go back to school. Take me back to that point in time. And what made you decide that that was the time, that was the time that you wanted to start that graduate education journey for yourself?

Keith Poniers [00:02:25]: Sure. So as you said, it was 26 years between the time I left. Graduated from Indiana way back in 93 until, you know, stepping foot on U of M. Flint's campus in the fall of 2019. What got me to that point over those 26 years in my various jobs, I never thought there was a need for an MBA through the different companies that I worked for. It really wasn't required, that kind of thing. But I got an opportunity to come work at Hurley here in Flint. And I'm a Genesee county born and raised.

Keith Poniers [00:03:03]: Other than my four years at Indiana University, I've either lived or worked here in Genesee County. So coming to work at Hurley was a great opportunity for me. Really love the Flint community and like I said, it's always been a part of my life. But I had an opportunity to come here at Hurley as working in the finance department, and then after a couple of years had another opportunity here at Hurley, and the current CFO was retiring. And they approached me of saying, if you're interested in, you know, stepping up into that role, a master's, an MBA would really go a long way to being you, to become a serious candidate. Nothing's ever guaranteed. But again, if you want that opportunity, certain things to get to that executive level, you do need a master's or B, a cpa, those kind of things. So that got me thinking, okay, where am I at? I was comfortable in my life, wife, daughter, grandkids.

Keith Poniers [00:03:56]: But if I wanted to take that next step in my life and further my career, it was something that needed to be done. So I did some research. Different education opportunities. There's obviously there were online MBAs that you could get. I looked at different ones around the state. But I was attracted to U of M Flint 1, being here right down the road from where I was currently working, great, you know, reputation. So that kind of was the avenue that led me to apply to U of M Flint and their MBA program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:27]: Now you just said that it was about 26 years between when you last left education to when you came back and you kind of get out of the mode of being in school mode, I'm going to say. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. Everybody goes through those transitions. And you had transitioned out of higher ed quite a ways in the past, and then you came back after many years in working. So what did you have to do for yourself to be able to transition back into school and find success as you transitioned in? And what did you have to do as you were going through that graduate education to be able to maintain that success?

Keith Poniers [00:05:03]: It was a huge transition for me. Again, like you said, 26 years is a long time. I still to this day, you know, all these years later, remember going to the orientation, you know, at the School of Management building down the street here, and being very nervous. I'm walking into a room full of people. They're professional people mostly. There are some that just continue right from undergrad into the MBA program. But I was for sure one of the older people in that room having that gap. So it was a challenge to become comfortable in that setting.

Keith Poniers [00:05:35]: You start working with, meeting people a lot younger than you in all different professions. So definitely a challenge. I think I just needed to reset my mind that, okay, this is a new chapter of my life. I drew back on some of those experiences from Indiana. When I went to Indiana, I was the only one from my school to go there. So it was a new experience. So it was kind of like deja vu all over again. Stepping into a new world, not knowing anyone, you know, just like I did when I was a freshman at that point, 30 years ago, from when I started as a freshman at Indiana, to quote, being a freshman in the new world of education, too, that was the other thing that was.

Keith Poniers [00:06:15]: It was when I went to Indiana, I took an electric typewriter with me. You know, it was, now I've come into college with a high tech laptop. So just kind of, like I said, just going back and understanding I can be successful in this new world of education. And it really took, you know, that first couple classes to really become comfortable and say, okay, look, I can fit in. And the professors there were great. My first class was in person with Dr. Lawrence, negotiation class. He made us all feel really comfortable.

Keith Poniers [00:06:47]: He was still, I would say, that's my favorite class of my mba. I draw on the experiences from that class and the lessons learned from Dr. Lawrence in the negotiation. I still have books from his class and a few others on my bookshelf behind me. But it really, again, the professors made it really comfortable for myself, being a little older, to fit in with the younger crowd and worked well with each other there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: Now you were working full time while you were going through school, so you had to do some balancing along the way. Talk to me about balance and how were you able to find that balance for yourself as you were trying to wear the many hats that you had to wear while you were going through a graduate program.

Keith Poniers [00:07:28]: Sure. I give a lot of credit to my wife. She was very supportive. The job at that point, I was controller at Hurley, you know, working my way, hopefully being to be considered for the. The CFO role. So. But it was a very challenging job, stressful as well. So Then you throw college classes on top of it and all the time commitments.

Keith Poniers [00:07:48]: So again, like I said, a lot of thanks, kudos to my wife for allowing me to kind of step back from our marriage. And you have to have that kind of give and take with whoever you're living with, your partnering with, whoever that they understand and they are supportive because it is an impact on your life. I kind of had to give up some of my other extracurricular activities I love to golf. I had to cut back and golf, fantasy football, fantasy baseball, those other things I had to scale back a little bit on. But ultimately you understand that there's a goal while you are doing this. And so you sacrifice a little bit to reach that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: You do have to do some of that. You do have to sacrifice at times. And you have to find ways to keep yourself motivated because it can be challenging along the way. How did you stay motivated through challenging semesters or coursework?

Keith Poniers [00:08:37]: I hold myself to a very high standard. So for me, the motivation was doing the best I can, getting the best grade throughout. Like, I started in the fall of 2019. So my second semester was 2020, which is obviously Covid hit. So that was its own challenge in itself. Stepping back in the classroom after 26 years, thinking everything was going to be in person, and then all of a sudden Covid hits and the whole world changed. And so that really continued to make me be focused on, okay, I got to pay attention because now everything is online. It was kind of a different world that I'm used to in person meetings, talking face to face with people.

Keith Poniers [00:09:20]: Now everything flipped to virtual meetings, virtual classes. That was a whole new learning experience in itself. But again, my drive to be successful, and I knew I needed to be successful if I wanted to reach the ultimate goal of being considered for a higher executive level here at the hospital, that was really important to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: Now, you said you, it sounded like you looked at only MBA programs because that was the path that you were looking at. And as you look back now, it's been a couple of years since you got that degree. And you think back now to the things that you're still pulling from. If you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? Why or why not?

Keith Poniers [00:09:59]: I would absolutely choose the same program. Again, the convenience of being local here in the community was a big selling point to me. Again, at that point, I thought I would be more successful with an in person type of learning because that's what I was used to way back in the day. Obviously didn't know I was going to completely flip to an online class. I only had the first semester and then about two or three months of the second semester was actual in person before going to online. So in hindsight, knowing how more convenient online classes is, I may have considered something a little different. But again, that was kind of, that was what I was used to, so that's why I chose it. But even now, understanding, you know, the online presence, I think, you know, U of M.

Keith Poniers [00:10:46]: Flint did a great job making that transition. It was quick, seamless, really. No issues with the technology or anything like that. So I think knowing the university has those resources available that they can quickly, you know, pivot as well, they made it very easy transition as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:04]: And I know earlier you mentioned Dr. Lawrence's class, but. And you think, as you think about the courses that you went through, how did graduate school change the way you think or approach problems?

Keith Poniers [00:11:14]: I mean, there were a handful of classes that I continue to draw back on. Organizational behavior was one. Again, one of my first classes. But as I stepped into more leadership roles throughout my career, being able to read, people understand you can't treat everyone the same. Everyone is different. You know, those, those kind of lessons were and I felt like repeated in a lot of the classes. But sometimes you just need that drip, drip, drip to. To hear message over and over again.

Keith Poniers [00:11:43]: You know, you have to be open. You have to be, you know, look at things differently through different lenses, whether it's just dealing with people or other ideas kind of thing. So that's something I continue to draw on throughout my career since I've graduated as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:58]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Keith Poniers [00:12:02]: It required a little more time commitment than I expected. Again, I thank my wife and my family for being supportive. And you think, okay, I got all these life experiences, I should be able to handle it. But I'm also one that I like to be prepared. So I probably spent more time studying, reading, making sure, you know, I did everything on the syllabus so I could be successful. So again, just be prepared to spend and dedicate that time necessary if you want to be successful. You have to put in the time. So my one negative of the whole thing at the whole experience was the one A minus.

Keith Poniers [00:12:40]: I got in one class that cost me a 4.0 GPA. And I think I go back to I prob. Probably didn't spend enough time preparing for that one exam in that class that I didn't do as well as I should have been. And I still kind of kick myself for not getting that perfect 4.0 class or GPA throughout my two years there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: Now, as you think back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in business or the health field or something else, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Keith Poniers [00:13:15]: I think you got to find the right environment for you to be successful again. Understand that there will be impact to your personal life, especially if you're working. If you're going to be working and doing this, gotta make sure your job understands okay. You know, you're gonna have some other commitments you may have to take some time off for. For certain things that just getting your mind right, that's going to impact your current life and your work life balance. You need to be prepared to adjust and pivot accordingly because if you want to be, you have to dedicate the time to it. You can't just skirt by. Sometimes I think people in high school, they can, okay, you just got to do the work.

Keith Poniers [00:13:57]: You can get by through in high school. When you get to college, you have to step up a little more. I think the MBA program, at least from my experience, and again I'm comparing to my undergrad a long time ago, but there was a lot more interaction, group work, those kind of things which I found really, I appreciated that back in my day, you know, we didn't do as many group projects even at Indiana, but in this program, program every class had group work. You're doing online comments, chats, working on projects. So it goes back to if you're going to be successful, you have to be willing to work with other people. You have to be tolerant to that. Not everyone is going to have the same work ethic as you. So you have to accept that they might just be along for the ride while you're striving to further your career.

Keith Poniers [00:14:45]: You have to either one, call them out for that. Don't be bashful if somebody's not putting in the work. You got to call them out and make sure, hey, migrate on what you do as well on those group projects. That's another thing where I would encourage, don't be afraid to step up and say something as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Well, Keith, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I truly wish you all the best.

Keith Poniers [00:15:06]: Thank you very much. I appreciate the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

There's a question I hear often from graduate applicants—and it usually comes with a long pause and a little uncertainty:

"Should I talk about the obstacles I've overcome in my personal statement?"

And then the follow-up question:

"What if it sounds… cliché?"

If you're asking that, I want you to know: you're already thinking like a strong writer.

Because the truth is, many applicants do write about challenges in ways that feel generic or overly dramatic. And that can make an essay blur into the background—especially when admissions reviewers are reading dozens (or hundreds) of statements.

But here's the good news:

You can absolutely write about obstacles you've overcome in a way that feels authentic, powerful, and professional.

In fact, when done well, it often becomes the most compelling part of the essay—not because it's dramatic, but because it shows the real qualities graduate programs value:

• resilience
• self-awareness
• maturity
• problem-solving
• growth

So today, I'll show you how to present challenges you've faced without sounding cliché, without oversharing, and without turning your personal statement into a "sad story."

Instead, you'll learn how to turn obstacles into narrative strength—while still clearly showing you're ready for graduate school.

First: Yes, you can talk about obstacles (and sometimes you should)

Let's begin by addressing the concern directly:

You are allowed to talk about obstacles in a graduate school personal statement.

Graduate programs understand that people don't arrive at graduate school with perfectly smooth paths. In fact, sometimes a challenge is what shapes a person into the kind of student and professional who thrives in graduate-level work.

But there is one key principle to keep in mind:

Your obstacle should not be the centerpiece. Your growth should be.

This is where many essays go off track.

Why some "obstacle essays" feel clichéd

Let's talk honestly about what makes a challenge story land poorly.

Obstacle stories often become clichés when they:

• rely on generic phrases
• focus too much on pain without reflection
• jump to a "happy ending" without showing the process
• make the reader do the work of connecting the dots
• sound like an inspirational movie trailer instead of a real person

You've probably seen phrases like:

• "I learned that everything happens for a reason."
• "This challenge made me stronger than ever."
• "I never gave up on my dreams."
• "Through hard work and determination, I overcame…"

None of these are inherently wrong—they're just vague. They don't show anything specific about you.

Graduate programs don't need a motivational quote.

They need clarity.

They want to understand:

• what happened
• what you did
• what you learned
• how it changed you
• how it prepared you for graduate study

The most important shift: Move from drama to meaning

If you want to avoid clichés, here is the simplest and most powerful advice I can give:

Don't write your obstacle story like a headline. Write it like a reflection.

Instead of making the reader think:

"Wow, that sounds hard."

You want the reader to think:

"This person learned something important, responded with maturity, and is ready for the next level."

The heart of your obstacle story isn't the obstacle.

It's the decisions you made and the growth you gained.

What graduate programs want to see in an obstacle story

When admissions reviewers read about a challenge, they're usually looking for signs of:

• coping and resilience
• responsibility and ownership
• problem-solving
• ability to seek help
• self-awareness and reflection
• forward movement
• readiness, not fragility

This is important:

The goal is not to convince them you've suffered.

The goal is to show them you can succeed, even when life is difficult.

The best structure to use: Situation, Action, Growth, Connection

This framework is the simplest way to write about obstacles without sounding cliché.

I call it:

• Situation
• Action
• Growth
• Connection

Here's what that looks like.

Situation

Briefly describe what happened, with just enough context to understand the challenge.

Keep this section short. You are not writing a memoir.

Action

What did you do in response?

This is the most overlooked part of obstacle essays.

Your response is what shows maturity.

Growth

What did you learn?

Not a generic lesson—something specific that shows insight.

Connection

How does this connect to your goals and graduate readiness?

This brings it back to admissions.

What to include (and what to leave out)

Let's make this practical.

Include

• brief, relevant context
• your response and choices
• how you adapted
• skills you developed
• how it influenced your direction
• growth you can name clearly
• forward-facing mindset

Leave out or minimize

• overly detailed personal information
• blame toward others
• long emotional descriptions
• medical or mental health specifics, unless necessary and handled carefully
• unresolved hardship presented as ongoing crisis
• anything that makes the program wonder if graduate study could overwhelm you

You don't need to share everything to be authentic.

You need to share what supports the narrative of readiness.

How to avoid clichés: 6 strategies that work

Here are some concrete ways to keep your writing fresh, real, and compelling.

1) Use specific details, not generic feelings

Instead of "it was hard," explain what "hard" meant in real life.

Example:

• managing full-time work while caring for a family member
• navigating housing instability during an academic term
• switching majors after realizing the first path wasn't aligned
• being the first in your family to understand the college system

Specificity makes your story feel real—not cliché.

2) Focus on the process, not the moral

Avoid ending with "I learned perseverance."

Instead, show what perseverance looked like.

Example:

• "I created a weekly schedule and met with my academic advisor twice a month to ensure I stayed on track."

That's not cliché. That's concrete.

3) Avoid overly dramatic language

You don't need words like:

• devastating
• shattered
• life-changing in every way
• darkest moment

Sometimes those words are true, but they can read as exaggerated in an admissions context.

Let the facts and reflection create the impact.

4) Show agency

This is huge.

Even if the obstacle was not your fault, your essay should highlight what you did next.

Agency sounds like:

• "I sought support…"
• "I adjusted my approach…"
• "I learned how to…"
• "I created a plan to…"

5) Include one insight that's uniquely yours

This is the moment where you sound like a real person, not an essay template.

It might be:

• a realization
• a new perspective
• a shift in your values
• an understanding about your field

Example:

• "That experience taught me that support systems aren't optional—they're essential. That insight is one reason I'm pursuing graduate study in counseling."

6) Bring it back to graduate readiness

This is the "professional landing."

Tell the reader why this experience prepares you for graduate-level work.

Examples:

• stronger time management
• improved communication
• better boundary setting
• comfort asking for help and using resources
• ability to persist and problem-solve
• clearer purpose and direction

Example paragraph: obstacle story without clichés

Here's an example that follows the framework and stays professional:

"During my junior year, I experienced a major disruption in my family responsibilities that required me to work increased hours while also supporting younger siblings at home. My academic performance was impacted during that semester, but it also forced me to develop skills I had not needed before. I created a structured weekly schedule, met regularly with instructors to stay aligned with expectations, and learned how to communicate early when challenges arose. Over time, I regained academic momentum and became more disciplined, organized, and intentional about how I used my time. That experience strengthened my confidence in my ability to manage demanding workloads—skills I know will be essential in graduate study."

Notice what this does well:

• it gives context, but doesn't overshare
• it focuses on action
• it shows learning
• it ends with readiness

That's the goal.

What if your obstacle is connected to low grades or gaps?

This is a common situation, and it can actually be a powerful narrative—if handled well.

Here's how to do it:

• briefly acknowledge it
• explain context without excuses
• explain what changed
• point to evidence of improvement
• emphasize readiness now

Graduate programs respect honesty and growth.

They struggle with avoidance or blaming.

Quick checklist before you submit

Use this to test whether your obstacle story is helping your application.

• Is the obstacle described briefly, without overwhelming detail?
• Does the essay focus more on growth than hardship?
• Do I show what I did, not just what I felt?
• Is my reflection specific and meaningful?
• Does this story support my readiness for graduate study?
• Does my tone feel professional, grounded, and hopeful?

If yes, you're in a great place.

Final encouragement

I'll end with this:

Your obstacles do not disqualify you from graduate school.

In many cases, they help explain the strength you bring into it.

But the strongest personal statements do not ask the admissions committee to "feel sorry" for the applicant.

They show something far more compelling:

A person who has faced challenges, responded with purpose, learned with maturity, and is ready for what's next.

And if you can tell that story with clarity and authenticity?

You won't sound cliché.

You'll sound real.

If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably reached the part of the application that feels surprisingly stressful:

Letters of recommendation.

Not because you don't know anyone—most applicants do.

But because the requirements often sound like they were written for one very specific kind of student:

• someone who graduated recently
• someone who still has professors who remember them
• someone currently working in an academic environment
• someone who has research experience and faculty mentors

And if your path looks different than that—if you've been working full-time, changed careers, raised a family, served in the military, or simply graduated a while ago—you might be wondering:

"Can my letters of recommendation come from outside of academia?"

In other words:

• Can my supervisor write one?
• What about a colleague?
• A nonprofit director I volunteered with?
• A clinical supervisor?
• A mentor in my profession?

If you've asked these questions, you're thinking smartly—and you're not alone.

So today, I'm going to answer this clearly and thoroughly, from the perspective of someone who works in graduate admissions and supports applicants every day.

By the end, you'll know:

• when non-academic letters are acceptable (and even preferred)
• who makes the strongest recommender outside academia
• when you should prioritize academic references
• how to choose recommenders strategically
• and how to request letters that actually help your application

Let's jump in.

The short answer: Yes—often they can

In many cases, yes.

Graduate programs understand that applicants come from diverse paths, and many strong graduate students are:

• professionals returning to school
• career changers
• adult learners
• military-connected students
• first-generation students
• parents or caregivers
• applicants who have been away from academia for several years

And those applicants may not have recent professors who can write meaningful, detailed letters.

Here's the important detail, though:

The best recommendation letters are not about where the recommender works.

They are about what the recommender can say about you.

A strong letter—academic or professional—does the same job:

• it shows evidence of your readiness
• it highlights strengths that match graduate-level expectations
• it provides examples of how you work, learn, and contribute

Why graduate programs ask for recommendation letters

It helps to understand what these letters are supposed to accomplish.

Graduate programs use letters of recommendation to answer questions like:

• Can this applicant succeed in graduate-level work?
• Are they dependable and responsible?
• Can they write, think, communicate, and problem-solve at a high level?
• Do they have the maturity for advanced study?
• Will they contribute positively to the program community?

A good letter gives the committee a perspective they can't get from:

• grades
• resumes
• personal statements
• or test scores

Recommendation letters are third-party credibility.

They confirm that your application isn't just well-written—it's true.

When letters from outside academia are absolutely appropriate

Many graduate programs accept professional references without hesitation, especially when the applicant has been out of school for a while.

Professional letters are often ideal if:

• you graduated more than 3 to 5 years ago
• you're applying to a professional or practice-based program
• you've gained substantial work experience in a relevant field
• your work responsibilities demonstrate advanced skills
• you have supervisors who can speak to your performance

Examples of programs where professional letters are often strong:

• MBA and business programs
• education leadership programs
• social work
• counseling and clinical programs
• public health
• nursing and healthcare programs
• nonprofit management
• information technology, cybersecurity, and applied STEM fields
• MPA and public administration

For these programs, real-world performance matters—and professional references can be incredibly persuasive.

When academic letters are strongly preferred

Now, there are some circumstances where academic letters are still the best choice.

Programs often prefer academic references when:

• you are applying to a research-heavy graduate program
• you are applying to a PhD or thesis-based master's program
• the program requires evidence of academic writing and research skill
• you are applying directly from undergrad or have recent coursework
• the program explicitly states faculty references are required

In these cases, the program wants letters that can specifically address:

• academic writing
• intellectual curiosity
• research potential
• critical thinking
• classroom contribution
• scholarly habits

Academic letters can be hard to replace when the program is evaluating research readiness.

The real key: choose recommenders who can provide specific examples

Here's something I tell applicants all the time:

A letter from a famous person who barely knows you is weak.

A letter from a direct supervisor who truly knows your work is strong.

Admissions committees care about detail.

Strong letters include:

• how long the person has known you
• what role they worked with you in
• specific examples of your performance
• specific strengths connected to graduate work
• clear recommendation language

Weak letters are vague and generic, filled with phrases like:

• "hard-working"
• "nice"
• "great attitude"
• "good communicator"

Those aren't bad traits—but they don't prove readiness for graduate-level success.

Who should I ask for a letter if I'm using non-academic references?

Here are the best choices outside academia:

• direct supervisor or manager
• clinical supervisor or preceptor
• department lead who has evaluated your work
• project leader you reported to
• nonprofit executive you worked closely with
• internship supervisor
• mentor who oversaw your professional development

When possible, choose someone who can speak to:

• how you learn
• how you handle complex tasks
• how you communicate professionally
• how you lead or collaborate
• how you manage responsibility

Those are graduate success indicators.

Who to avoid asking (if possible)

Sometimes applicants choose recommenders based on title rather than content.

Try to avoid:

• family friends or personal acquaintances
• religious leaders who only know you socially
• elected officials who met you once
• coworkers who don't supervise or evaluate you
• people who only know you casually

These letters are often too general and don't carry the kind of credibility programs need.

A practical recommendation: a "balanced set" often works best

If the program requires 3 letters, one great strategy is balance.

Examples of strong combinations:

For a professional master's applicant:

• 2 professional references
• 1 academic reference if available

For a recent graduate:

• 2 academic references
• 1 professional or internship supervisor

For a research or doctoral applicant:

• 2 academic references (ideally research-related)
• 1 professional or academic reference with strong writing/research insight

If you are applying to multiple programs, adjust your letter mix depending on each program's expectations.

What if I don't have any academic references?

This is very common.

If you don't have academic recommenders, here's what to do.

• choose professional recommenders who can speak to writing, analysis, and learning
• select recommenders who have evaluated your work formally
• use your statement of purpose to reinforce academic readiness
• consider taking one course before applying to build an academic reference

That last one can be powerful.

Even one graduate-level course or professional certification program can give you a current instructor who can write a meaningful academic letter.

How to ask for a letter that actually helps you

The best letters happen when you support your recommender.

When you request a letter, provide:

• the program name and degree
• the deadline
• the submission process
• your resume or CV
• your draft statement of purpose
• 3 bullet points of what you hope they can emphasize
• a reminder of projects or accomplishments you worked on together

This makes it easier for them to write a detailed letter.

And detailed letters matter.

What should the letter highlight for graduate admissions?

Here are graduate-level qualities that recommenders can address:

• intellectual curiosity and ability to learn quickly
• strong writing and communication
• analytical thinking and problem-solving
• reliability and follow-through
• leadership and collaboration
• professionalism and integrity
• ability to handle feedback and grow
• time management and workload readiness

If your recommender can provide examples in even 2 to 3 of these areas, you are in strong shape.

Quick checklist: Are my non-academic letters acceptable?

Ask yourself:

• does the program allow professional letters?
• have I been away from school for several years?
• can my recommender speak to my skills with specific examples?
• does the recommender know my work well?
• do my letters support my program goals and readiness?

If yes, you're good.

Final encouragement

Let me close with this.

Graduate programs want strong students.

And strong students come from many paths.

If your best recommenders are outside academia, that does not weaken your application.

In fact, for many programs—especially professional programs—letters from supervisors and workplace mentors can be some of the strongest letters we read.

The key is not academic or non-academic.

The key is:

• credibility
• specific examples
• and clear evidence you are ready for graduate-level work

Choose recommenders who know you well, can speak in detail, and genuinely want to support your next step.

That is what makes a recommendation letter powerful.

If you've ever tried to write a graduate school essay, you've probably experienced this exact moment:

You're writing along… feeling good… and then you check the word count.

And suddenly your heart sinks.

Because you're either:

• 400 words over the limit or
• 200 words under the limit or
• right at the limit… but your essay feels vague and generic

And the biggest source of frustration is usually this:

"I know I need to include specific examples… but examples take up so many words."

If that's where you are, I want to reassure you:

You're not a bad writer.

You're just experiencing what almost every graduate applicant experiences—because great examples are what make an essay strong, but word limits are what make essays feel impossible.

So today, I'm going to show you how to do both:

• include specific examples (the kind admissions committees actually remember)
• and stay within the word limit

Let's jump in.

Why examples matter so much in a graduate school essay

Let's start with the "why," because it's important.

When admissions committees read essays, they're not only looking for good intentions.

They're looking for evidence.

Examples are evidence.

Examples show:

• what you've done
• how you think
• how you solve problems
• what you've learned
• what you're ready for

Without examples, an essay becomes a list of claims.

And the problem with claims is that anyone can make them.

For example:

• "I'm a leader."
• "I'm passionate about equity."
• "I'm committed to community impact."
• "I'm ready for graduate-level work."

All of those statements might be true.

But admissions committees are quietly asking:

"Can you show me?"

That's where examples matter.

The core challenge: examples increase detail, and detail increases word count

This is the tension you're feeling:

• Specific examples make your essay stronger
• But you only have 500–1,000 words (sometimes even less)

So the goal isn't to remove examples.

The goal is to learn how to write examples efficiently.

Think of it like this:

You don't need more examples.

You need better examples.

And you need to write them in a way that delivers maximum impact in minimum space.

The golden rule: one strong example is better than three weak ones

Many applicants go over the word limit because they try to squeeze in everything they've ever done.

But a strong grad essay usually needs:

• 2 to 4 strong examples total

That's it.

Not 10.

Not your full resume.

A few examples, chosen intentionally and written clearly, will always outperform an essay full of scattered experiences.

Choose examples that do double (or triple) duty

This is one of the most powerful strategies.

A great example should demonstrate more than one strength at once.

Instead of choosing examples that only show one thing, choose examples that show:

• skill
• impact
• growth
• and alignment with your goals

Here's what that looks like:

Weak example choice:

• one example for leadership
• one example for research
• one example for community service
• one example for teamwork

That becomes too much.

Stronger approach:

Choose one experience that includes multiple dimensions.

Example:

A capstone project might show:

• research skills
• collaboration
• communication
• problem-solving
• commitment to a population
• readiness for graduate study

That's a high-value example.

Use the 3-sentence example formula

This is one of my favorite techniques for staying within the word limit.

When you include an example, limit yourself to three sentences:

• what you did
• what you learned
• how it connects to your goals

Here's a template:

• Sentence 1: I did ________ in ________ setting.
• Sentence 2: This taught me ________ or helped me develop ________.
• Sentence 3: This connects to my goal of ________ and prepares me for ________.

Here's how that sounds in real writing:

"During my internship in student support services, I helped launch a peer mentoring program for transfer students. Through this work, I strengthened my ability to design support structures, analyze engagement patterns, and communicate across diverse stakeholder groups. This experience shaped my goal of pursuing graduate study in higher education to build equitable student success initiatives grounded in data and community needs."

That's three sentences.

Clear. Specific. Connected.

And most importantly, efficient.

Replace long storytelling with "high-density" details

This is how you keep examples specific without writing a novel.

Instead of spending 8 sentences describing the background, use details that condense the story.

For example:

Instead of:

"I was working at a nonprofit and we were trying to help community members and there were many challenges and I learned a lot…"

Use:

"In my role as program coordinator at a community nonprofit, I managed outreach initiatives supporting first-generation college students."

That one sentence includes:

• role
• setting
• purpose
• population

That's high-density detail.

When applicants run out of words, it's often because they are writing low-density sentences—sentences that take a lot of space without delivering much information.

Use numbers strategically (they add clarity without adding length)

Numbers are one of the easiest ways to make an example more concrete without adding word count.

Examples:

• "served 200 participants"
• "increased event attendance by 30%"
• "led a team of 6"
• "supported a caseload of 25 clients"
• "managed a $10,000 budget"
• "developed a training module used by 40 staff members"

Numbers make an essay feel real.

And they take very few words.

Avoid the "resume dump" paragraph

This is a common pattern:

Applicants add one long paragraph listing everything they've done.

It usually sounds like:

"I completed X, and I also worked at Y, and I volunteered at Z, and I participated in A…"

This is where word counts explode.

Instead, use fewer examples—but go deeper with intent.

Remember:

Graduate programs would rather understand 2 key experiences well than read 12 experiences poorly.

Combine sentences using "stacking"

Stacking is when you combine related details into one well-built sentence.

Example:

Instead of:

"I worked as a graduate assistant. I supported faculty. I developed workshop content. I helped students with planning."

Try:

"As a graduate assistant, I supported faculty-led initiatives while designing student workshops focused on academic planning, motivation, and professional development."

Same information. Far fewer words.

Cut filler phrases that cost words without adding meaning

This is the easiest way to reduce word count quickly.

Here are common filler phrases to remove:

• "I believe that"
• "I feel that"
• "It is important to note that"
• "Due to the fact that"
• "In order to"
• "This experience helped me to"
• "I was able to"

Replace them with stronger verbs.

Examples:

• "I believe that" becomes "I know" or nothing at all
• "in order to" becomes "to"
• "helped me to develop" becomes "developed"
• "I was able to lead" becomes "I led"

This is how you keep meaning but reduce length.

Use an intentional outline so you don't overwrite

Most word limit problems happen before the writing even begins.

Because the applicant writes without a map.

Try this simple outline that helps you control length:

• 10% hook + motivation
• 30% preparation and key examples
• 40% goals + program fit
• 20% conclusion and future impact

When you assign "space" to each section, you naturally stay within the limit.

A simple editing strategy: subtract 10% without losing substance

If your essay is too long, don't panic.

Here's a process that works almost every time.

First pass: delete filler and repeated phrases Second pass: replace long phrases with shorter ones Third pass: reduce each example to 3 sentences Fourth pass: cut your weakest example

Most essays can lose 10% of word count without losing meaning at all.

In fact, they usually get stronger.

Quick checklist: am I using examples efficiently?

Before you submit, ask:

• Did I include 2–4 strong examples (not 8–10)?
• Do my examples show impact, skills, and growth?
• Did I connect each example to my graduate goals?
• Are my examples written in 3 sentences or less?
• Did I use numbers where possible?
• Did I remove filler phrases?

If yes, you're right where you need to be.

Final encouragement

If you're trying to write a powerful grad school essay under a word limit, here's what I want you to remember:

The word limit isn't there to restrict you.

It's there to reveal something important.

Can you communicate with clarity?

Can you choose what matters most?

Can you tell a focused story?

That ability is part of graduate school readiness.

So don't aim for an essay that includes everything.

Aim for an essay that includes what matters.

A few strong examples, written efficiently, will always outperform a long essay full of scattered details.

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can feel both exhilarating and overwhelming. On this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Marissa Charles, a current student in the Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) program at the University of Michigan Flint, to explore the heart, grit, and strategies needed to thrive in grad school.

Marissa Charles shares a story that many prospective students will find deeply relatable. After completing her Bachelor's in Nursing and working for several years—including through the COVID-19 pandemic—she initially dismissed the idea of returning to school. "I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA," Marissa admits, pointing to the self-doubt that can plague even high-achievers. Her journey is a powerful testament to the idea that growth comes not just from academic readiness, but personal readiness. Sometimes, it's about timing and gaining confidence in oneself, rather than inherent capability.

A central theme throughout the episode is the importance of mentorship and community. Marissa credits much of her success to the robust support network within her program. From the moment students are accepted, they're paired with mentors who guide them not just academically, but through the personal transitions essential to thriving in an intensive program. Extra-curricular opportunities, like mixers with students from other universities, further broaden the sense of camaraderie.

Grad school is no easy path. Marissa emphasizes the necessity of balance, self-advocacy, and strong communication. She reflects on strategies for managing bumps in the road—whether it's an unexpected personal crisis or the all-too-familiar imposter syndrome. Her advice is universal: don't be afraid to reach out for help, and remember that setbacks are a normal part of the journey. Faculty, family, and peers are eager to support—you just have to take the first step.

Whether you are considering grad school, in the midst of a program, or mentoring others, this episode offers inspiration and practical advice. Marissa's narrative proves that with determination, support, and clear priorities, pursuing an advanced degree is not only possible, but rewarding.

Ready to find encouragement and actionable tips on your own grad school path? Tune in to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and join a community invested in your success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. So excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together. I say it's a journey, and I know every week I say this, but it is so true that you are on a journey. You've made a decision.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: Whether you are just the very beginning and you're just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in a graduate program. No matter where you are, this is a journey from start to end of that graduate degree, and there are things that you can do right now, today, to be able to find success sooner. And that's what this podcast is all about. I love meeting with you every week to be able to provide you some things to think about, some perspectives, some thoughts, and especially to bring you others that have gone before you that are either in graduate school now, they've gone to graduate school in the past, and they are excited to be able to share their own journey with you so that you can learn from it and maybe repeat some things, maybe not repeat some things, to be able to help you to make your journey as smooth as it can be. Today we got another great guest. Marissa Charles is with us, and Marissa is a student within the Nurse Anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to talk to her and to learn more about her journey in and through graduate school. Marissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Marissa Charles [00:01:45]: Thank you, it is my sincere pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: I am really excited to be able to have you here today, and I think first and foremost, I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. You got a bachelor's degree in nursing at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you went off, you went off, you worked and started in your career, and at some point you made the decision for that you wanted to continue that education. Bring me back to that point, that point in your life where you said, "It's time." Why was it the time to make that jump? And what made you decide to go all in?

Marissa Charles [00:02:21]: 100%. So I graduated December of 2020, definitely a crazy time in the world. I became a nurse. I started working. I never said, "Go back to school, Dr. Lewis." I said I'd never go back. My bachelor's degree was enough. There's no way I'm doing it again.

Marissa Charles [00:02:37]: I graduated when I was 23, so I was working for a few years and I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA. And looking back at that is like, it makes me laugh because it shows just how you grow as a person truly through life. Because here I am, it's 2026 now. Um, in 2023, I finally made that decision where, hold on, it's not that I wasn't smart enough, it just was that I wasn't ready. I was a new nurse. I was coming outta nursing school, COVID was happening. We were seeing the sickest patients ever during that time. It was scary.

Marissa Charles [00:03:14]: And it's not that it wasn't smart enough, I just wasn't ready. So 3 years or 2, 2 and a half years into my nursing experience, I was looking around and I just felt as though I'm missing something, like something— I wanna do more. I want to advance my education. I feel as though I'm at a point in my clinical experience where I have truly become a clinician that was an expert within my critical care standards. So in 2023, I was like, I think it's time. I don't know what I wanna do yet, but it's something. And that's when I started looking at graduate programs around the state of Michigan, what was out there for nurses. There's a lot of different paths you can take.

Marissa Charles [00:03:59]: You can become a nurse practitioner. There is— perfusion, there's PAs, there's a lot you can do in graduate programs right now. And CRNA, I still felt like I wasn't smart enough for. So it took me about another year. In 2024 is when I finally was like, why not bite the bullet? Why not go for the hard road of what this program is? Because with a hard road comes a lot of feeling super good about yourself and confident and getting the most out of your education. So I decided in 2024 that I would start applying. And this process takes a long time. It's 2020, I started fall of 2025.

Marissa Charles [00:04:41]: So it does take a little bit of time to go from deciding you want to go back to school, getting your application in, getting an acceptance and starting. But here we are, you know, 2 years, January of '24 to January— February of 2026 to being in it. So that's a little bit of my story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]: And I, I've said that you are in the University of Michigan Flint's nurse anesthetist program, the CRNA program.

Marissa Charles [00:05:07]: CRNA program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: And as you said, you did some research, you looked around, and I know that there are other CRNA programs in the state of Michigan that you could have chosen, and outside of the state of Michigan as well. So talk to me about that and what made you decide to not only apply to the CRNA program at the University of Michigan Flint, but also that once you got that acceptance, that, that was the program that was right for you.

Marissa Charles [00:05:33]: So, uh, there's 5 programs in Michigan, so you have a lot to choose from. And there's so many different reasons that you can look into different programs. Obviously I'm a little biased 'cause I spent my undergraduate program at the University of Michigan Flint. So I looked back and when I was in my undergraduate program, I was working alongside of anesthesia students. They were there with me during my undergrad. So I got to see a little bit of kind of what they did on a semi-day-to-day basis. But it really still wasn't a level playing field because it's been 4 or 5 years since I went to undergrad. I've been kind of all over the state of Michigan, but really the biggest thing that brought me back to Michigan, which is kind of what I love so much about my undergrad program, is truly the relationship that the faculty has with their students and how much importance we put on student-to-student relationships.

Marissa Charles [00:06:27]: And I'm gonna mention mentor, mentor, mentor probably a million times in the next 20 minutes that we talk, but our program, even before you start, they offer webinars, open houses, opportunities for you to meet the faculty to get an idea of who they are because you're applying to be in the program. It's just as much backwards. They want the best of the best to be in a program. And so it's just as much as me choosing them as it is they're choosing us. So I really, really love that about our program is the relationships that we build and then just how much importance we put on building relationships, mentorships, and then wellness is super huge. So after literally you got your acceptance letter, and then right before we start the program, they pair you up with a mentor and start building that relationship on how can we help you get through this next 3 years. And here's this person that's doing the same thing you're doing, but they're a little bit ahead of you, so they have a little bit of insight on how to get you through the program, which is super huge for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:31]: You've been successful. You made that transition in, you're going through the program right now. You're mentoring other students as well and helping other people in the program. So you've been able to find success thus far. But I also know that there is a transition. You went through a nursing degree, but just because you went through a nursing degree as an undergraduate student doesn't mean that the way you're being educated, the, the expectations of the faculty are going to be the same at the graduate level. And usually they're heightened to a much greater degree. So talk to me about that transition for yourself and what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what have you had to do along the way as you've been going through this graduate program to help you find success?

Marissa Charles [00:08:17]: I think half of, like, our student success is a tad bit about our director, is our director has basically taught every single class in our program. So one thing that created such a success for us as a cohort is that the way that our classes are built and the way they're structured is to allow for that transition to happen. And I don't know if there's many other programs that can say that they have faculty that have truly taught everything and have reworked all of these classes to create student success. That first semester, most of us have been out of school for 3, 4, 5 years. And so building a first semester where you're learning how to be a graduate student again, learning how to stop working again, learning how to facilitate your life around being a student, but also you're still a partner or a mother or a dog mom. You're still the person you are outside of school, but being a student is 100% that first semester and what that looks like. So I'd say the biggest thing is providing us with support in that first semester and building a class list that is doable was super big. And then really the biggest thing is I am super crazy about looking ahead really far, just like mentally prepare yourself.

Marissa Charles [00:09:35]: Like right now I'm in my second semester and I'm looking at third already. I mean, we just started 5 weeks ago, but in order to be successful as a graduate student, you have to focus on what you're doing right now, but you have to be 3 or 4 steps ahead. So looking at— I'm starting clinicals in April. May, and knowing that I need to start mentally preparing myself for what does clinicals look like? What does creating lunches and being outside of the house a lot more, driving a lot more distances, things like that, to create a better, smoother transition for a student instead of it being very abrupt. So I'd say like, definitely, I love that our faculty have created a streamline of courses that really kind of ramp up just in the perfect amount each semester, but also being a productive student more than you were in your nursing program, where a lot of this is independent. They're not going to tell you exactly what you need to be doing at home and kind of figuring that out for yourself to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:35]: You also mentioned the fact that it was so important for you to have a mentor and that your program aligned you specifically with a student mentor, but there are also mentorships that you build in regards to the connections with your faculty members as well, and that's important too. So Talk to me about mentorship, and if your program is not offering you the type of formal program that, let's say, that you had in your program, what are some things that you've seen to be able to allow for you to be able to build relationships with others that you might not have been formally connected with before you were in the program?

Marissa Charles [00:11:11]: So our program sets you up with a mentor, and we— your mentor kind of chooses you in a way, and you're kind of connected on familiarity. So I was lucky enough to get a mentor that I actually was her trainer as an ICU nurse. I trained her and now it's her opportunity to give it back to me, which is super amazing. And I love that so much. But you're paired up with a mentor before you even start. And we meet them even before we start the program. They throw, uh, orientation meet and greet. And so it's an opportunity for us to say like, hey, like, what can I do before we start? What can I do in that first week of classes when Canvas opens finally? And we're so excited.

Marissa Charles [00:11:50]: How can I get ahead? Ahead. So that is super important. And then our faculty are super awesome, and every quarter they set up wellness days, and those wellness days are opportunities for all 3 years, for second and third year students to get together and continue to build those relationships. We have a mentor, but that's just one person, but there's 30 people in each year, so there's the opportunity for 100 of us to get together and, and build faces to names, names to faces, because ultimately we're going to be coworkers or we're gonna follow each other in clinical. We're gonna have opportunities to connect on different scales and being able to see each other, you know, once every quarter is super huge. So that is something that we do that I appreciate. But obviously there's opportunities outside of school that you kind of have to push yourself a little further to be able to make relationships with people while you're in a higher degree. So for example, with the nurse anesthesia programs, or I should say nurse anesthesia There's the Michigan Nurse Anesthetist, um, essentially board.

Marissa Charles [00:12:54]: Like everyone has like, as a board across the Michigan and we have MANA and there's MANA for students. And so I just came back last week. They had a meeting with all 5 programs. That's optional. You don't have to go, but why would you not take 4 hours out of a Friday night to go to a mixer of 5 different programs across the state of Michigan to pair up with these different students from different places? Because like I said, we met may end up being coworkers one day, or we may see each other in clinical, and being able to see how different programs are doing it and how are they getting through their 3 years to be successful in the program is super big to me. So going that extra step to doing those optional things that it's not mandatory, but it could otherwise increase your success in finding different things out from different people across all of Michigan.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:48]: And you're in a rigorous program, which is challenging in itself, but you're also a friend, you have family, you've got other hats that you're wearing. So talk to me about balance and how do you find balance in your school, your work, your family, and other personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school?

Marissa Charles [00:14:09]: That is the question of the hour, Dr. Lewis. How do we do it? I think as a nurse, that's something that you inherently know because there's weeks where are tough weeks at work and you have to be able to kind of figure that out. You have to work overtime, or it's the holidays and you're balancing holidays with taking care of your own family. In the graduate program, it's harder in the aspect of you have to say no. You have to be able to know there's a priority. You have an exam on Monday, it's Saturday night, that I can't do that. But there's also Friday night I can, I just have to be responsible with my time.

Marissa Charles [00:14:48]: So I think it's definitely very difficult as a graduate student on having to say no and really create a balanced schedule, but I think it really starts before you start. We're super big at Michigan. We do a family meeting and it gives you the opportunity for our director to explain to our family members from her perspective, not ours, cuz we, I mean, we've explained this to our family probably a million times. This is gonna be hard. This is gonna be hard. But she speaks to our family and gives them basically a rundown of what it looks like to be a student and what her expectations of us are and what her expectations of them are. And it kind sets a precedent of it's not just me going through the program, everyone in your household's going through the program. It's just as difficult for those people around you as it is for you.

Marissa Charles [00:15:36]: So I think that, um, it does start before you start and kind of setting expectations. And if it ends up being a great semester and you end up doing more things, it's awesome. But knowing that at minimum, this is where I have to study, I have to set aside time. If I'm able to do more, great, but at minimum, this is what we have to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:55]: And setting those expectations, I think, are really important, not only for yourself, but also for your family and friends, et cetera. I tell students all the time that having those type of communication meetings, whether they're from a program to family members, it's even more important to have from student to family or friends as well, because you may set parameters at the beginning of a term without realizing or understanding what that term is really gonna be like. And what I try to make sure that any student thinks about is if things change, that's fine, but communicate it out. Because if you've promised to call mom every day of the week and you're only calling once a week, guess who's going to be really concerned when you're not calling? Mom's going to be concerned. So make sure that you're communicating and letting people know. They're not going to be upset with you. They're going to be more happy that you've communicated and that you're keeping them informed because they want to support you. And that's what this is all about, is that the people that have always been a support are going to continue to be your support, but they need to know how to support you through the process.

Marissa Charles [00:17:01]: Yep, 100%.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: I know that through the program sometimes there are bumps along the way and there are things that happen that are unexpected, whether it be a bad grade, whether it be a family issue, whether it be whatever. And I know that you even had some of those in your own experience. Talk to me about what you would say to other students that have those bumps in the road and what would recommend for students to do when that does happen?

Marissa Charles [00:17:28]: I think the biggest thing, like reflecting back on like those times, is like try— it's so hard in the moment when you feel like your world is crashing and you feel like so overwhelmed— is to like pull yourself out of it for 3 seconds and just like take a breather, relax. Because at the end of the day, the biggest thing about Michigan no matter if it was my undergrad or graduate program, is our faculty are there for you. And I think that it's, it's so funny because she— our director in our fac— CRSS— they say it so many times, and I understand now being on the other side of it and having to go to them why they say it so many times, because it's almost like ingrained into you at that point. So when you are so overwhelmed and you're so frustrated, you're going through something so difficult, it's so inherently easy to just reach out. And I think that, you know, 10, 20 years ago, that was— might not have been a thing. And so it's hard because the hardest thing to do is make the first step to like reach out and ask for help or reach out and say, I don't know what I need, but this is what's going on. And so that to me is like the, the easiest and the hardest thing to do is like take 5 seconds for yourself and just stop and like figure out who you need to talk to and talk to that person because you're not alone. This program, whether it's your support systems at home or your support system within your program, there's always someone someone there to talk to.

Marissa Charles [00:18:54]: And I think that that is the hardest thing, is like figuring out how to approach those people that you— they are your directors or your assistant directors, your faculty. They're up here and you're like, oh, I'm just so little, it's just me, like I don't want to bother them. But that's what they're there for, and I think it's so hard to overcome that. But now I understand why it's, it's so drilled into us so many times during our orientation, during any type of clinical, clinical prep workshop, is they just want to help. They're there to help you get through those hard points in life. So I think the hardest thing is, is to actually reach out, but once you do that, everything feels like it falls into place just as quickly as everything kind of blew up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:35]: And sometimes that will happen. And I'm not sugarcoating it for anyone. When you go through graduate school, life happens. And whether you like it or not, there could be really positive things, there could be things that are negative that may happen, one of the things that I would always tell a student to do is communicate, communicate with your program. Make sure to talk with your program about what is happening because your program wants you to be successful and the director, the staff, the faculty are going to try their best to be able to support you in that moment and to find resources for you in that moment. Sometimes, as Marissa just said, sometimes at that point in time you just can't think straight and you're thinking, I just need to fix I need to go, I need to do this, I need to go, go, go, and you're like, I'm out of here. Take that pause, send that email, pick up the phone, make the call, because if they know upfront there's going to be a lot more that they can do than if you just fall off the radar and are dealing with something that you should be dealing with. But if the program doesn't know that, that could impact you in many different ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:43]: So just like I was talking about communicating with family and friends, it's also important to communicate communicate with your faculty, with your director, with staff in the program, and to talk to them about things that are happening because they may or may not know what's happening with you personally. And that's up to you. That's your right. You can keep it to yourself, but the more that you are able to build that relationship, the more that they're gonna step in and be able to support you in the end. Now, one of the things that I'm interested in knowing as well is many students as they're going through— you talked about at the very beginning, always thinking that the CRNA RNA program was not something that you would be able to do because you didn't think you were smart enough. And there are many times when you go through graduate programs and graduate school itself that sometimes that self-doubt, that imposter syndrome, steps in, and it can rear its head in many different ways. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome or self-doubt reared its head for you, and how did you deal with it?

Marissa Charles [00:21:44]: We're in a rigorous program. We are in— I there's hundreds of people that apply to this program and ideally they're taking top 10%, 5%, 50%, whoever knows. And so day to day you're taking exams, you're comparing yourself to others. You're like, oh man, why didn't I get, you know, this question right? That person got it right. My grade is this grade, their grade's that— it's so easy to get so wrapped up in the minuscule details and feeling like you need to compare yourself to others. And this last 2 semesters, I'm gonna go back to our director. I love her. She has watched, you know, multiple years of students go through this program.

Marissa Charles [00:22:26]: And it feels like right at that time where you feel— we call it the valley of despair, that time where you feel yourself dipping and you're like, feel like you can't see the sun and you can't see when the next good day's coming. She gives us that inspirational message that we need, you know? And it's so— it's so— and she has it down to a science where just when you need that, that bump of inspiration of saying like, you know, you are— you're meant to be here. You are smart enough to be here. I picked you because I knew— I know you can do it. Let me know how I can get you through this because I know you can. It's just getting you the resources or figuring it out, right? It's, it's, it's so funny because I, I genuinely think she's done this and done it so well for so long that she knows just right coming into second semester. Students get so overwhelmed that first, second week that it's so much more material, so much more to do. And that's when we have that time with her to say like, no, you can do it.

Marissa Charles [00:23:31]: This is how we're gonna step back to be successful and not try to compare ourselves to others. Be the best person that you can be on your own is super huge because is imposter syndrome. That is the hardest thing to overcome before, during, and after this program. So just being able to kind of like point it out and see the red flags when they're coming is super huge for me. Sitting down, like pausing for a second and saying like, no, like I am doing the best I can. I'm here for a reason. I will be successful is super huge when you're by yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:06]: Now I know that you're currently in graduate school, you're working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. As you you think back to the experience that you've had thus far in your graduate education, and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's going into becoming a nurse— a nurse anesthetist, a physical therapist, getting an MBA, whatever it might be— what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Marissa Charles [00:24:32]: Put one foot in front of the other. I think that's the hardest part. I think, you know, we're all adults that are applying to graduate school. We all have jobs, we all have things going on, and I think the hardest— for people when they're applying to go back to school isn't necessarily the school. It's all the steps that you have to do to get back to school. It's the long application process. It's getting proof of all your documents. It's putting together records requests.

Marissa Charles [00:24:58]: One foot in front of the other, 'cause that's truly the hardest part. Write down that deadline. Make sure that deadline's on a huge sticky. Put reminders in your phone. It's all the little steps that it takes to get to where you wanna go. So that's probably my biggest thing is like, like you can do it. It just takes a lot of little steps to get to where you wanna be. And then I would say probably the second thing is try your hardest to, to build your application or build your process, build your resume to show who you are as a person.

Marissa Charles [00:25:29]: I think that's the hardest thing is the biggest question that people ask when they're applying to programs is like, how, how do I, how can I get in? Like, what can I do? And the biggest thing is trying your hardest to show who you are as a person who you are as a nurse, who you are as a student on paper is probably the hardest thing to do because that is all you are when you're compared to hundreds of people. You have to figure out how to display yourself the best that you can, whether that's in your essay or, or in your CV, is try your hardest to build that out to show who you are as a person.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]: Well, Marissa, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I know it's not over yet, but I'm I'm looking forward to being able to see you cross that stage here in the not too distant future. And I'm really appreciative of all that you said today as well, because as you mentioned, it's not always going to— there are going to be bumps in the road. It's important to have those mentors. And there's so many little pieces that you talked about today that I think are so important for any program and any student thinking about graduate school. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I wish you all the best.

Marissa Charles [00:26:35]: No problem. Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Always.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Navigating graduate school isn't a straight line—it's a journey full of turns, challenges, and unexpected lessons. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Rita Fields, a lecturer at the University of Michigan Flint's School of Management, to explore her unconventional, inspiring path through higher education. Whether you're already on your grad school journey, considering taking the leap, or supporting someone who is, this episode is brimming with honesty and actionable wisdom you won't want to miss.

Dr. Rita Fields candidly shares her beginnings as a high school dropout who returned to education, ultimately building a career in human resources and pushing herself to the highest academic levels—including earning a doctorate while juggling executive work and family life. One major theme is perseverance: She discusses the powerful role self-motivation and setting clear boundaries played in her success, especially when life threw unexpected hurdles in her way.

A key takeaway from the episode is the stark contrast between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral studies. Dr. Fields describes graduate school as "straight broth with no water added"—a deep, immersive experience that requires true engagement with your chosen field. Whereas undergraduate education is about finishing what you start and getting well-rounded, graduate studies demand critical analysis and, at the doctoral level, becoming the expert who can teach the topic.

Another highlight is the discussion about burnout and self-doubt. Dr. Fields is refreshingly honest about reaching points where she questioned her ability to go on, and even considered quitting. The key, she says, is being kind to yourself, setting and honoring boundaries, building a support system, and remembering that challenges and stress are inherent in all meaningful pursuits.

Finally, Dr. Fields offers clear advice: take graduate education seriously, resist the urge to just "check the box," and prioritize real learning over simply accumulating credentials. Understand your limits, be honest with yourself about your capacity, and remember—it's okay if your path takes a little longer.

Ready for candid insights, practical tips, and a big dose of inspiration? Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Rita Fields' journey and discover how you, too, can chart your own successful grad school path—even when it gets tough.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. It's really important that you know that this is not a— always a— going to be a linear path. It may be a little bit circuitous. You may end up coming and going and getting different types of educational experiences along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: But hopefully you've done that work to be able to know what your goal is, and you find ways to be able to hit those benchmarks along the way to be able to help you to keep moving toward the goals that you have set for yourself. Every week I love being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that have all had their own experiences in graduate school, And they're here to share that experience with you so that you can build some tools for your toolbox to help you in that journey that you're on. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Rita Fields is with us today. And Dr. Fields is a lecturer for— at the University of Michigan Flint. That basically means she's been teaching classes for a bit and she teaches a number of different areas within our School of Management.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to be able to talk to you about her experiences to have her here on the show this week. Dr. Fields, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Rita Fields [00:01:38]: You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to talk about your own journey. And I know I love starting the show with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know that you did your bachelor's degree down at Marygrove College in Detroit, and I know that at that time you got a Bachelor of Arts in English and Psychology. And then you went out, you got some experience, and along the way, at some point during that time that you were working, getting different experiences, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point. And what made it the right time, the right place for you to say, now I'm going to go back, I'm going to get that next part of my education? And, and take me back and talk to me about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought about that time isolated in the way that you just described. But when I decided to go back for my master's degree, I had a son who was 8, maybe? Somewhere along there? When I got my undergrad degree, he turned 5. And so it was about a couple years later-ish. And I had decided that I really appreciated and loved my undergraduate education at Marygrove, absolutely adored it, and that perhaps I should further myself to open more opportunities up for myself and to learn how far I could advance. At that point, I was already within my chosen field of human resources, and so I decided to go back to school to get a master's in human resources. And I was really grateful to do it. I'd read a lot about the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: I understood that there was— and, and came to confirm for myself that there's a huge difference between graduate school and undergrad. So I was really excited to embark on that journey. And it was a— it was good timing for me when I decided to go back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now, I know you just said that you loved your experience as an undergrad, so that probably played into why you decided to get that master's degree at Marygrove College. Were there any other mitigating factors when you were looking at whether you wanted to go back to Marygrove, which is where you ended up deciding to go, or if you were considering other schools? And if so, what were you looking for in a program that you ultimately then decided on attending?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:13]: So yes, I did decide to stay at Marygrove, and I, I'll be honest, it was really nice. To contemplate getting that advanced degree in an environment that I was always really— always— I was already really comfortable with. So that was a huge selling point for me, that I understood the campus, I understood the way things worked, I knew the services that were available. Because I did have a young child at the time, I also knew that I had the ability to have childcare services if I had evening classes. So there were lots of elements of the campus that were very attractive to me. In terms of the degree program itself, I really wanted a rigorous program that allowed me to delve deeper into the wide expanse of knowledge that is human resources. Human resources is a very broad field, and so I wanted to make sure that I had a program that exposed me to people who were in the field, who were diverse and who would allow me to further my own professional life in such a way that the, the learning of the material would complement my practical application day to day. So I was really fortunate in that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:39]: Now, down the road, you finished that degree and then you went and worked some more. You got some other experiences and down the road you said, I'm still not done, I'm going to keep going back. And this time I want to go and get a terminal degree. And I guess bring me back to that point. What was going on in your career? What was going through your head as you were saying to yourself, I'm not done, I want to continue and I want to keep pushing myself forward in this way?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So when I decided to go back for my doctorate, I was well into my career at that time. I was an executive actually, and I worked at Henry Ford Health System., and I was about to accept a position to open on the operational team to open their, their new hospital, which was Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital. So this was a couple— about a year or so before I went into that process. And I have to tell you, this might sound weird, but the reason I decided to go on to get my doctorate is because I just wanted to see what I could do intellectually. I, I'll bet you don't know this, I was a high school dropout. And so I was someone who— I left school the first day of my 12th grade year and I had a very tumultuous experience, but eventually I went back to school and I learned how incredibly important it was for me to maximize my learning potential and that, that helped me to deal with things that happened in my life that I didn't have any control over. But if I could figure out a way to understand it, if I could figure out a way to wrap my mind around how to procedurally advance in my career and to really delve deeply into what the possibilities were in my mind. I know that might sound weird or super nerdy or both, but that's really what initially made me think about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: I did take quite a bit of time trying to determine the type of program that I would go into. I knew I did not want a PhD. I know that's— I'm going to get some smoke about that, but I did not want a traditional PhD The thing that drew me to my program was the fact that it was a Doctor of Management, so it's a terminal degree. So it's still a doctorate, but it's not theoretically grounded, it's more grounded in practical application. So I fell in love with the program. I met amazing people. It was a cohort program. It is definitely the most difficult time I've ever had academically.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: It stretched me into intellectually beyond what I thought I was going to be able to do. And at a couple of points in the very beginning and right before I ended my coursework, I wondered if I was gonna be able to do it. It was just so difficult. I have one textbook that I still remember the COVID and the name of the book to this day. I literally read that book 4 times. I still have no idea what it was talking about. But I— so I got that weird thing that I wanted to get where I wanted to sort of see like, what— how far can I push myself intellectually? I definitely solved that question for myself with that doctorate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:06]: So now at every level of education, as you're transitioning into that degree and transitioning through that degree, there are transitions going from being an undergraduate student into a master's degree, a master's degree to a doctorate, the faculty require different things, they expect different things. And as a student, you have to be able to perform, you have to be able to lift yourself up to the level that you're being challenged to be at. So as you are going— as you went through those own— your own transitions for yourself, talk to me about what you had to do as you transitioned into those programs, and what did you have to do— going through the programs to be able to continue and maintain that success throughout the entire journey? And let me put one other caveat on it is because you did two other degrees, how was it different between what you had to do at the master's level and what you had to do at the doctorate level?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: First of all, I always tell my students that there are differences in the levels of education. So when you go into the undergraduate environment, it's it's really about being able to complete what you start, right? I think that's why a lot more people start undergrad degrees than finish them. Like, dramatically more people start than finish. And so merely finishing a multi-year course is really impressive and somewhat rare, unfortunately. I, I wish it were more common, but it is not because you have to go through remaining committed. The undergrad degree experience is normally much more rich with courses that aren't necessarily tied to your major, but they're supposed to round you out a bit. That's the way that I would describe it. Your master's degree is really like a deep, concentrated deep dive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:55]: So it's like, um, it's like straight broth with no water added. It's just undiluted major. So hopefully you like that major. If not, you're really gonna get irritated really, really quickly. And then the master's degree, I try to explain to my students is like— the difference between that and the undergrad degree is that an undergrad degree, you pretty much have to prove that you can take in information and that you have digested that information and give it back in some form. The master's degree, in my experience, is that you're able to take in information, to digest it, and then perhaps to analyze it from different perspectives. Is there a different way to look at this? Is there anything missing from that? The doctorate degree is at the pinnacle of the learning ladder because you not only have to take in the information, analyze it, resource it, you have to go through some type of a vetting process where you make sure that the doctoral level, uh, or the information that you're learning at the doctoral level, is that valid? You have to determine whether or not you are looking at seminal leaders within your particular field and, and what they said, and is there anything that's missing? So it's having to digest information to a point where you could potentially get to the point— well, not even potentially, but you could get to the point, because once you defend your dissertation, you should be an expert at your topic, where you could teach that topic. And when you are able to fully teach, you are able to show the different complexities and nuances that are really inherent in any topic that you want to explore.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: So I think that— but in terms of your final bit, in terms of how I tried to prepare myself for each level, I think when I went into my master's degree program, I still had the undergraduate mindset. And so I was able to relax a bit because I was— everybody in class was interested in the same master's degree. So there wasn't quite as much diversity in terms of experience. We all sort of worked in the same field. And so it was almost like this really beautiful sense of camaraderie that I got because at the master's level, that's really what that's about. At the doctorate level, it's pretty much like you're on your own. Like, you're— like, let's just say you're this, this— your mom has puppies and the puppies are the other people in your cohort, and she sort of leaves you outside in the storm for like 5 years. That's, that's pretty much what it feels like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:31]: You have to figure stuff out yourself No one is going to come and check on you. I remember registering for writing semesters for my doctorate and there were no instructors. I just had to pay to write it, which I thought was absolutely insane. The level of support mechanisms start to diminish a bit because you're moving into this space where you should be more self-directed. And by the time you get to your doctoral level, that's also probably why there are people who are ABD for 25 5 years, which is not something to brag about, by the way. The only time it's great is when you're ABD right before you finish it. After that, it's like, oh, you— so you never finished, huh? So it's really, really hard, and you have to be internally motivated. And so it really taught me how to keep myself on pace and to become even more organized and really respect the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I will say that in my own doctorate experience, I will say that if you're in a doctorate program with a cohort for your coursework, those individuals do become a core group and they do tend to push you along through the coursework and support you. It's after you get out of the main coursework and as Dr. Fields was talking about, you get into that writing, there's a lot more self-push that has to happen. Doesn't mean that your cohort doesn't check in every once in a while because sometimes they will and be like, hey, where's everybody? But that being said, it becomes much more on you. And you and your dissertation chair in having a conversation and being able to set benchmarks and make sure that you keep pushing yourself to meet the benchmarks so that you don't remain, as Dr. Field says, ABD. I always say ABD is all but done, and that's true because it's all but dissertation, but ABD also could mean all but done, and you don't want to end up ABD. You want to end up finished with a degree in hand, especially if you're putting the time and effort in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: Now, One of the things that I hear from a lot of students as they go— are moving into a master's degree, a doctorate degree, as they go through these degrees, is that there is a point in time where they have self-doubt. There's a point in time where they feel, I'm going to say, imposter syndrome, where they may question and say, am I good enough? Should I be here? Why did they select me? Talk to me about how that self-doubt or imposter syndrome crept into your own experiences. In graduate school? And what did you do? And how did you deal with that as you were going through your own programs?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]: I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't experience imposter syndrome. And it could be because when I took the GMAT, which was a requirement for my doctoral program, I passed the writing part within the 5th percentile or something, did really, really well with writing, and I bombed pretty much the rest of the thing. I mean, like, I just totally— and I was like, well, you know, hey, we can't all be perfect at everything. And So I was aware of that from the very beginning. I knew I could write. I knew I was very good at reading and context. And I knew that even though my doctorate was a business degree, my master's was a business degree too, but my doctorate was, was much more intensive in, in the business curriculum. So I knew that if I could get past all of the courses in econ and the other deep strategic courses that were part of my doctoral curriculum that I could write my dissertation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: So I viewed it from that perspective. So I never felt like I didn't belong there. I always felt like I represented the liberal art faction because both of my undergraduate degrees were in liberal arts. I had written so many papers I'd lost count. So I was very comfortable from that vantage point, but I also had members of my cohort who were diehard practitioners, who had been in the business world for a very long time, who maybe didn't read as many books, but they had very different experiences. Where I think I was most challenged in my degree was towards the end. It was probably right before I wrapped up completing all of my coursework, which for those of you who aren't aware— well, in my program anyway, you had to go go through 2 years of coursework, and then I went through 3 years of writing my dissertation. 3 years, y'all, not 3 months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:08]: It took 3 full years of writing. But right before I completed my coursework, I was an executive at Henry Ford Health System, and we were opening a hospital, and it was getting really, really tight. There was so much work that goes into that, so many meetings, So many late nights. I happened to be going through a divorce at the same time, which in and of itself is— can be extremely traumatic. It's very tiresome. And I was— I was supposedly wrapping up my coursework, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if I can do this. I think I might have to drop out. And I thought about it for a little while, and then I asked myself, would you be okay with yourself in 5 years if you dropped out now? And I wisely answered to myself that I would not be okay if I did that, and then I was gonna do everything that I could.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: So I had to really double down on my boundary setting. I had to double down on devoting time to study because we had our qualifying exams, which are these major tests that you get during the doctorate. We had them So my coursework was 2 years. I had one set at the end of the first year and one set at the end of the second year, and they were so difficult. I still remember one of the questions, and the answer to the question was 22 pages handwritten in a book. It was insane. If I told you the question, you would get angry about it. Don't— I think about it, it makes me mad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: But so I had to buckle down, I had to study it. My doctoral program was the first time I ever really had to to study. I know that sounds like a flex, but it's not cool to find out that you don't know how to study when you're in your doctoral program. Um, other than that, I, you know, I read a lot, and I, you know, I was really good at context. So I, I would have to create ways to force myself to retain lots of information in the midst of all of these professional and personal challenges. So that was the time at which I thought I might drop out. I'm so incredibly grateful that I did not. I pushed through, and it is the only B+ on my doctoral transcript, which, you know, I tell students also all the time, you know, people are so into their grades.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: I'm like, look, let me tell you something, grades matter, but sometimes you might have a B+— like, that B+ on my transcript is my proudest grade because I was going to quit and I didn't, and I did the absolute very best I could under incredible circumstances. And I pulled out a B+. So I'm good with it. So that, that would be my— but yes, I'm— it's certainly not unusual to feel those types of challenges. And quite frankly, even though I was in a cohort and it was wonderful, and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that were in my cohort to this day, we also had several people drop out. So that's not exactly motivating when you're sitting with a group of 11 people and then 3 of them say, you know what, this is insane, I'm not doing it. You sort of wonder Are they crazy or am I crazy? I mean, so it was, it was, uh, complicated, but thankfully it worked out in the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]: Now I know that you were working while you were going through these type of programs, and that takes a lot of balance in being able to wear the multiple hats that you wear to be able to be there for the people around you, the friends, the family, and more, as well as to be the employee, the student, et cetera. So talk to me about balance, what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance, whatever that definition is, and what were some of the things that you had to do to be able to maintain that throughout your different graduate school experiences?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: Yeah, that's a great question. So I believe very strongly in having boundaries, and I know that's something that a lot of people struggle with. I'm not typically one of those people, and I really learned how to do that in graduate school. When you're— in graduate school and there are so many things, particularly as you get closer to the end. As my students may recall, I often refer to it as senioritis. You think, oh, I'm almost done, like, this is gonna— I'm gonna skate my way through. That's sort of where a lot of people fall off, right? Because they are really close to the end, and you do not want to get that close to the end and then sort of flake out. So I was really good at boundary setting when I graduated with my master's degree is when I got married the first time, and I actually told my fiancé at the time that I was not going to be able to plan our wedding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: So if he wanted to get married, he could either wait until I got my master's or he could plan it himself. And so he chose B, which was fine with me. I picked the dress and then I showed up. So I think you have to be honest with people in your life that there are a lot of things going on. You have to Have those boundaries. But I also think it's really important to give yourself periods where you just sort of rest and take a break. You can't just plow through everything and assume that you're a robot. It will not happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:23]: Your body will literally shut down on you, and you could get really sick. I actually got sick after each of my qualifying exams, like really sick. And so I became much more aware of building for myself a carrot versus carrots stick system, which in the industry basically means something that you like— which is weird because I hate carrots— versus something that you don't like, like the stick, to like, you know, be somewhat punitive. So I would allow myself to enjoy certain things and give myself a break, and then I would get back to work. So I think it's really important to have a support system in your life where people are going to let you know that you're doing well and that you can continue to do but even if no one does say that, I think it's really important for you to understand that for yourself because at the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: end of the day, you're the one doing the work. You definitely are doing the work and it, it will be challenging as you go through and you'll be pushed in many different ways. And there's times in which you may even have points of burnout where you're, you're chugging along and you're working hard and, and you hit that proverbial wall for yourself. Talk to me about burnout for yourself and how did you avoid burnout or recover from it when you felt overwhelmed?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:44]: Oh yeah, I definitely experienced burnout. I'm pretty good at managing boundaries, but being able to manage boundaries doesn't inoculate you from having to feel the effects of stress. So I crashed a couple times. I remember at one point during— I'm— the most difficult, well, during my master's degree, I actually had to take a year off from my master's degree because a member of my family had a mental mental health crisis that was incredibly serious, and I was the person that had to manage it, and I simply could not balance everything. So I actually did have to step away. I did come back, but that was very significant because typically master's degrees are 2 years, so that's a long time. And for my doctorate degree, I didn't drop out, but because I had so many things going on, I remember I ended up— I don't want to scare anybody, but I ended up in the the emergency room once. I lost hair.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:48]: I would sit and my hands would be shaking like I was on a roller coaster ride. I was deeply stressed. And as much as it was uncomfortable, obviously, what I learned from that was how deeply connected my mental state was to my physical state. And that even if in my mind I could write off sort of dealing with things— I had a very high tolerance for the machinations of life— I really still had to take care of my body. I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure that I slept. I had to make sure that I tried to nurture myself as much as possible. I, I don't know if it's possible to avoid burnout in any situation that is worth having.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: —right? And so if you think of eustress versus stress, which some have characterized as positive stress, if you get married, you're going to be burnt out. If you have kids, you're going to be burnt out. If you have a dog, you're going to get burnt out. So it makes sense that the things worth having also have an accompanying amount of stress associated with it. I think being kind to yourself and really dedicating yourself towards recovery is the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: key to get past it. It is hard, and I'm not saying that to scare anyone off from grad school. There are going to be times that are going to be harder than others, but in anything that is worth doing, there will be times that will be harder than others, whether that's education, your work, your family, your friends, you know, no matter what, as you go through life, you know this, and it is definitely going to be the case in grad school as well. Now, I guess Dr. Fields, as you think back to your graduate experience and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school and you think about success and things that they can do to be successful, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]: I think take it seriously. You really need to take it seriously. I am not an advocate of check the box degree accumulation. You want to learn. And as I often also say to my students, I had a dear, cherished professor who said to me once that learning is the attachment of meaning to otherwise useless information. And so that has never failed in being true in my life. And so it's really important to understand that you are supposed to learn this information, um, and that that will help you. It, it will not help you if you don't do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: And there's so many different ways that people try to cut corners that they just try to push past the learning experience. I can tell you as someone who has hired literally thousands of people in my career, people who are differentiated in the work environment are people who are conscientious about what they do. And so if you apply that to your learning, you can only benefit from that. I am an educated person, not just because I have degrees on the wall, but because I learned the material and that, that exercise of learning, it's one of the most valuable things that I have. And so I would encourage people to do that. I know that might sound very basic, but that is pretty clutch. The other thing that I would do is encourage you to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I think sometimes people take a lot of classes and they really shouldn't take a lot of classes in that particular term because they've got a lot of stuff going on, and it doesn't go well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:32]: And you— one could assume that it's not gonna go well if you have like a newborn baby and you decide to take 7 classes. Those things don't tend to mix. So think through what you're capable of doing, and if it takes you a little bit longer, then it takes you a little bit longer. When I was in undergrad, you know, I got my degree in 4 years, my undergrad degree, and that was like the standard. Now I hear that it's 5 to 6 or more, right? I mean, that's for undergrad degree, let alone master's degrees or, or doctoral degrees. And so I think you have to be kind to yourself because being kind to yourself in terms of your true time commitment will make the learning experience an easier, more beneficial one for you as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:15]: Well, Dr. Fields, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing your pieces of advice and everything that shared with our listeners today. I know that this journey, like I said, is not a circu— it's a circuitous path. It is not a straight line. And as you said in yours, you definitely had some curves along the way, but you made it and you were successful. And I appreciate you sharing that journey with us and for helping others to be able to maneuver that path for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]: And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and go blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].