Victors in Grad School

Are you considering graduate school, currently navigating your graduate journey, or reflecting on your academic path? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers invaluable advice and reassurance for anyone on this transformative journey. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and featuring special guest Rebecca Pettengill, Manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint, the conversation centers on not just navigating graduate school, but truly thriving.

A Non-Linear Academic Journey

One of the most striking themes from this episode is Rebecca Pettengill's unconventional path. Her undergraduate degree took 13 years to complete due to balancing full-time work and part-time studies, proving that there's no single right way to pursue higher education. She's candid about the challenges and delays, yet highlights how building relationships during her undergraduate years later supported her academic and professional pursuits.

Strategic Choices and Growth

When selecting a graduate program, Rebecca Pettengill intentionally chose an MBA over a master's in public administration to diversify her resume and broaden her opportunities. The cohort structure of the program offered much-needed structure and camaraderie, making the rigorous journey more manageable. She also underscores how workplace flexibility and supportive family dynamics were key in finding a balance between professional, academic, and personal responsibilities.

Navigating Barriers and Self-Doubt

Rebecca Pettengill is refreshingly honest about the hurdles she encountered—especially preparing for the GMAT after years away from mathematics. Her perseverance, conditional admission, and commitment to hard work were pivotal to her success. Study groups and supportive peers, including international students, created a collaborative environment where everyone's unique strengths contributed to collective achievements.

Impostor syndrome and self-doubt are realities for many, and Rebecca Pettengill is no exception. She shares how working with a diverse cohort and celebrating small wins helped her realize everyone brings something valuable to the table—even when uncertainty creeps in.

The Power of Relationships

Strong relationships were central to Rebecca Pettengill's journey—whether with faculty who became mentors or classmates who evolved into a reliable professional network. These bonds didn't just provide academic support; they continued to open career doors and create opportunities long after graduation.

Advice for Future Graduate Students

Rebecca Pettengill encourages prospective graduate students to view a master's degree as both a commitment to themselves and a catalyst for lifelong learning. In a world of constant change, advanced education offers both adaptability and new possibilities—regardless of your career stage.

Ready to hear more firsthand wisdom and inspiring stories? Listen to this episode of Victors in Grad School for actionable strategies and a reassuring reminder: your unique path can lead to incredible success.

Tune in now and take the next step in your graduate school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Rebecca Pettengill [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are getting yourself ready to move toward those goals that you've set in front of you. And for you, it may be that you've already made that application to graduate school. Maybe you're just thinking about graduate school. Maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are in this journey, it is a journey. Because if you're at the very beginning or you're getting close to the end, there are things that you can do right now to be able to find success in this graduate school journey. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different tips, tricks, things that you can do, some things you can put into your own toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school themselves, and for them to allow you to learn from their experience to help you on your journey. Today we got another great guest. Rebecca Pettengill is with us today. Rebecca is the manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: And she has her own graduate school journey, as I've already mentioned. She did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, getting a bachelor's degree in public administration, and then went on from there. We'll talk about that. But I'm really excited to have Rebecca here. Rebecca, thanks so much for being here today.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:01:46]: Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing your own journey. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And once you got done And then with that degree, you went off, you got some experiences, and had some opportunities to work at the University of Michigan Flint doing development work. And at some point in that transition from undergrad into your professional life, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to not be done. And you decided to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: What was going through your head? And what made you decide that that was the right time? to go to graduate school?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:02:28]: Well, I had sort of languished in earning my bachelor's degree. I worked full-time and part-time all the while I was working on my degree. And of course, as you grow up, things change in your mind about what you hope for in your career or your life goals. And so, you know, I originally kind of started out in a business degree and then moved more to the public administration side. And that took me 13 years. I don't recommend it highly to incoming freshmen to take that route, but because it delays your earning power later on in life. So, but anyway, I did take that path and everything happens for a purpose, I think, in life and all your experiences add up. So I had a lot of courses all throughout the university and with my career at U of M Flint, actually that turned out to be beneficial because Professors knew me, other department secretaries knew me, people in administration knew me, and, you know, that served me well going forward.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:03:38]: And then I decided to add the master's degree and just to expand my resume, I decided to do the business degree for my master's for a couple reasons. Just like I said, to make my resume a little more broad. And to give me other experiences. At the time, I was working at the recreation center, which was very much considered a business unit at the campus at that time. And so we had goals there as far as earning our keep and not costing the university too much money. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:18]: So you decided to do the MBA and going through the MBA program, you got your bachelor's in public administration and you could have done a master's in public administration or some other type of a degree. What was it about the MBA that made you decide that that was the right fit and the right program for you?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:04:35]: Well, it was really at the time a little bit where I was at the recreation center in managing the business office there. And then also in the undergrad program, I had taken a lot of the courses, or a number of the courses were shared as master's and bachelor's courses. So I had had some coursework that was already part of the public administration master's. So that was sort of an impetus to do something different with the master's level degree. And so the MBA was kind of in my wheelhouse of experience and so on. I also was drawn to it a little bit because at that time it was set up as a cohort. And so I knew I'd have a set of people and I had a sort of a regimented progression to get through it. And that was helpful as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:30]: Now, for everyone that goes through a graduate program, you go through a transition. You go through a transition from going from undergrad into first, it was for you, for work. And then you went from work back into school after a few years of not being in school. And there is a distinct transition because the way you're educated as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're educated as a graduate student. And you have to do things to not only set yourself up for success, but be able to prepare yourself for ultimate success throughout the program. So as you think back to that graduate degree and going through the MBA, what were the things that you had to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what were some of the things that you had to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:06:19]: Yeah, a big challenge actually was the GMAT test. And that was where my relationships through campus kind of paid off because they took a chance on me. I didn't score very well in the mathematics section. It had been a long time since I had been in high school mathematics and done those things. And even my undergrad mathematics were something that I took early on. So that was quite a challenge to prepare for that test, to go into it. And I was fortunate they gave me a conditional admit, but I had good grades to back it up and worked hard. And that was where all Also, it was really nice to work with study groups.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:03]: Some of us ended up, because it was a cohort, we kind of followed together. And so there was a group of us that worked together and that was helpful too. We had a nice young man from China who was in our cohort and he was very, very helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:19]: Now, when you go into graduate school and you're going through this while you're working and you were working while you were going through this education, there is truly a balance that you have to find. Whether it's through not only your schoolwork, but also balancing work and family and personal responsibilities. Talk to me about what you had to do to find that balance for yourself.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:44]: Well, I was kind of fortunate because where I worked at the rec center, the office was open a lot. They were open long hours to accommodate members and students. And so I could kind of flex my time if I needed to. Like if I had an exam coming or something like that, I was able to flex my time a little bit. That was helpful. And then also with my particular family life, my husband always worked late as a UPS driver. And so I had a lot of downtime right after work that I was able to utilize to attend classes. Most of my classes were at night.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:23]: And so that worked out in my instance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: I was able to negotiate some of those barriers that other people might Every student goes through a point in which, like you said earlier, when you were going through that GMAT and you hadn't had math in a really long time, that you feel like, am I made for this? Is this right? Am I good enough? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome or self-doubt that sneaks in. Talk to me about how you faced imposter syndrome or self-doubt during your graduate studies, and how did you handle it?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:58]: You know, it's interesting because I think In the different courses, there were different challenges. And so, I remember a lot of our people at that time were working at General Motors, and they were engineers and different things like that. And I remember one of the courses that we had was a simulation where we had to create a business and sell the product and up our manufacturing and all of that. And this One fellow and I ended up in a group together, and neither of us really had that experience, but he had a lot of experience in sales. And so we, against all odds, we ended up prevailing in that simulation on a number of occasions, having sales and being able to amp up production because he knew enough about sales to understand all that. And it just showed me that people that might not seem the strongest for your team or the effort sometimes come through and have that secret sauce that you need to be successful. And it showed the benefit of working with other people with other abilities and strengths.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]: So as you were going through your graduate school journey and you talked about connecting with students like you did in that experience and going through graduate school, a lot of times one of the things that's important is building those relationships and building relationships with other cohort members, but also building relationships with faculty. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build and what relationships ended up being most impactful for you and why.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:10:48]: Well, the course that my career took after having the MBA, I ended up working in the development office or institutional advancement, it might be called now, and I ended up Being the first person that worked in corporate and foundation relations at U of M Flint, there were people in the Ann Arbor campus, and that was helpful to have them as mentors, I would say. But having a diverse set of experiences ended up serving me well in that position, having to assess opportunities for the campus and then knowing the faculty and being able to find out who might be able to take on the opportunity, the grant opportunity or research opportunity. Understanding a little bit about research and how that works was really helpful. And so all of those things kind of just added up to make this a really good fit. Getting that business understanding, having those— the faculty members to go back to and ask questions. And then the ongoing relationships with different students that were in my, my MBA cohort mostly has been really rewarding. We had a lot of really good people that were in our group and we got quite close, I would say.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now, thinking back to your graduate school experience and thinking about what you had to do to find success in that journey, and you think— and thinking about others that are thinking about graduate school for themselves, no matter if it's in the MBA or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:12:34]: Because my experience is heavily with the university in the beginning, I would say that if you are able to pursue the master's degree, whatever it might be, I think there's great benefit in having the bachelor's degree and the basis of information that provides you for life and for many different types of experiences. And then to be able to go on and add another layer to that at the master's level, I think it demonstrates a commitment to yourself as an individual and your willingness to continue to learn in life. And it's just so important, especially now as things are changing so fast in our world. And new discoveries and all of those things. It's important to have that extra learning, and I just highly recommend it. It just gives you so many more options and opportunities to pursue, especially when you're younger. Well, even when you're an old lady like me, it served me well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: Well, Rebecca, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey in your graduate education, and I truly wish you all the best.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:13:50]: Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:51]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

What does it really take to chart a successful course through graduate school? That's the question at the heart of this week's episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, where Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Gillian Wilhelm, a second-year Physician Assistant student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to open up about her own journey—the doubts, the decisions, and the lessons learned along the way.

The episode kicks off with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing that every grad school journey is unique, but that hearing from others can help you add tools to your "success toolbox." Gillian Wilhelm's story is no exception. She traces her decision to enter the physician assistant (PA) field back to her junior year at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Like so many, the uncertainty of that period forced her to re-evaluate her goals. She weighed her options—medicine, nursing, or something else entirely—before discovering the PA career through a friend's recommendation. What resonated was the balance of hands-on patient care and work-life flexibility, ultimately fueling her passion.

Preparation, Gillian Wilhelm shares, was key—not just academically, but practically. She discusses the importance of researching programs, understanding prerequisites, and gaining patient care experience. Her pragmatic tip? Make sure you meet admissions criteria before sinking money into applications—a lesson learned through creating spreadsheets, taking extra courses, and shadowing various healthcare professionals.

Once in grad school, juggling personal and academic expectations became crucial. Gillian Wilhelm candidly discusses the reality of adjusting to a demanding program: learning how to study again, relying on the support of therapy and family, and experimenting with different study and self-care strategies until she found what worked for her. She's honest about imposter syndrome but stresses the power of simply "showing up for yourself" each day, whether or not you feel confident.

The episode also highlights the importance of community. Building relationships with classmates—often by just suggesting a walk to class—becomes a lifeline, as does forming connections with thoughtful faculty who genuinely want students to succeed. Gillian Wilhelm found meaning in serving as cohort president, helping bridge students and faculty concerns, reinforcing the theme that success often grows from collaboration and communication.

If you're considering graduate school, this episode is a must-listen. Through Gillian Wilhelm's authentic reflections, "Victors in Grad School" offers not just advice but genuine encouragement: do your homework, embrace your unique journey, build your community, and remember—it's about progress, not perfection.

Tune in to the full episode for inspiration and wisdom you can carry into your own academic adventure.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are preparing to go on your own graduate school journey. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a distinct and unique journey for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: But there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now that'll help you to prepare yourself for graduate school. That's why every week, I love being able to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, and to meet new people with different experiences that can share some of their own graduate school journey with you. That's why this podcast exists. It is here to help you to be able to listen to other people's experiences, to take in what works, set aside what doesn't work, and add some tools to your toolbox that'll help you to move forward in your own journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest. Jillian Wilhelm is with us. I'm really excited to have Jillian here with us today. Jillian is a second year graduate student in the physician Assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: And, and we're gonna be talking about the journey that she has gone through to be able to get to where she is today and that she's going through right now to be able to help you in your own graduate school journey. Jillian, thanks so much for being here today.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:01:41]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I always love to start these conversations with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And what I'd love to do is go back. I wanna go back in time, back to that time back at University of Michigan. You were working on that bachelor's degree in neuroscience. And whether it was during your time at Ann Arbor or at some other point, there was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: And you had that spark in your head that said, I want to be a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:02:18]: That point for me came in my junior Year at U of M Ann Arbor, it was the middle of COVID I was living on campus because I was an ra. So at that time, I'm not sure how familiar you or anyone else listening was or is with the situation that we were in. But because of the super high number of cases, the university was instructed to kind of shut down and have all students who were able to return to their homes, return homes. And we had a mostly online experience then for the rest of that semester. But because I had the opportunity to be an ra, we still had students, athletes, international students who were there. So I was still living on campus. And being in the middle of the pandemic, we really didn't know what was going on. But I knew even still then when I went, when I started my bachelor's, I knew I wanted to do something in medicine, and I just wasn't fully sure what.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:12]: And then being in the middle of the pandemic, we didn't really know what was going to happen. We didn't know how long we were going to be in that situation for. And I was having some doubts of, well, do I want to go the medical school route? That's a lot of other schooling, a lot of research, and just volunteering. Shadowing opportunities are super limited. I could do nursing, but that would be an extra bachelor's degree. And I was already most of the way towards my neuroscience degree. And I actually had a really good friend reach out to me. She was also in college at the time.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:45]: We'd been friends since kindergarten. And she sent me this article about what a PA was, and I had no idea of what a PA was. I'd never heard of them before. And she was like, I found this career, and this seems, like, really great. And it seems like exactly what you and I want to do. And I read the article, and it was truly just like, it mentioned work, life, balance, it mentioned still all of the patient interaction I was looking for. And I just thought it was a really unique thing. It was a role that was really rooted in teamwork.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:04:19]: You got to be a collaborator with many different people, many different professions, whether outpatient or inpatient. And that was that, like, you mentioned, that kind of seed or that kind of spark. And I just. I kept looking more into the profession, and as the year progressed and as I looked closer to graduating, I started looking more into the role, and I realized, like, that's what I want to do after I graduate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:42]: Now, I know that after you graduated, you went, you got some experiences, some work experiences that allowed for you to prepare yourself for applying to physician assistant programs. Because for most PA programs you're going to need to see at least about 500 hours. Sometimes it's, it's much more than that. Sometimes it's right at the minimum. But, but you do have to have some hours of direct patient contact experience. And you did do that. You went out and you had some experiences for yourself to prepare yourself. And as you got into that year when you were applying to physician assistant programs, I'm sure that you were looking across many different types of schools and trying to identify, okay, what's the best fit for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But talk me through that process for yourself and what did you do to be able to not only prepare yourself for that academic, for that admission journey, but also how did you look and try to break down for yourself what were the programs that you were going to apply to and how did you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:05:50]: So I did a lot of research when I was looking at programs. I know statistically it's such a growing like profession and a growing field that the admissions journey is, can be very hard and very challenging just because it's a super high demand field and you have a lot of wonderful applicants who are all applying for that, those limited number of spots as you. But my journey was really just a lot of research. I knew I graduated from U of M at Ann Arbor in 2022 and then I applied during the, I think it was like the 2425 CYC because then with U of M Flint we started in January of 25. So I knew I was researching quite a bit with some classes have like, or some schools have term limits. So some of the classes I took for my degree back in like my sophomore year. So like 2019, 2020, there are limits with like how long they'll accept those classes versus like how soon you can take. So some places have five year limits, some places have 10.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:06:52]: So I had to do a lot of research to make sure that like the schools I was interested in I could actually like meet the admissions criteria for. Because applying to PA school is super expensive and I didn't want to put money towards application fees to a school that I knew like wouldn't accept my credits or my classes or things like that. So that was definitely something I had to spend a lot of time looking into. I had a big spreadsheet, a lot of different notes. My Google Drive got a lot of use, which was Great. And then I ended up as well, working as a physical therapy aide for about five months. And then I was a nursing, a certified nursing assistant for the majority of my patient care experience. So that was also something I knew that I wanted to be in a hospital and I wanted to really kind of immerse myself in that, like, healthcare environment because I had never been in an environment like that before, so I wanted to really get a feel.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:07:48]: And even though I knew I wanted to be a PA, I wanted to see like how PAs were in kind of that natural environment. So with working. And then I also was fortunate to shadow a couple different PAs. I shadowed one in the ER, I shadowed a cardiology PA and then as well as an interventional radiology PA. So I got to see how they interacted with patients and other healthcare professionals. And those all really solidified. That's what I wanted to do for a career and kept me going through the admissions process for sure. Because when you're sitting there staring at multiple essays, your big spreadsheet, and you're trying to just figure everything out and keep everything going, you kind of need that extra motivation.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:08:27]: You can just remember, like, I really saw how that PA worked with that patient and that was really key for me, is to remind myself like, that's where I want to be. So to make all of the paperwork and the research worth it. And then for U of M specifically I, or U of M Flint specifically, I really was interested in the fact that they have a 16 month didactic year. That was something that Most programs are 12 months didactic and then 12 months for clinicals. And as someone who I had been out of school for a couple years and while I still had a big science background, I mean, you, if you're not using all of that knowledge all day every day, sometimes it can be a little tricky to review back on and get back in that mindset of a student. And I thought the 16 month didactic would be a great opportunity for me to just have maybe a little more time to just like kind of flush out some topics. So that was definitely a draw as well. And then, I mean, I graduated from U of M Ann Arbor, so why not try and keep it in the U of M family, you know? But yeah, and then I went.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:09:27]: I was lucky enough to be selected for an interview and I really liked the professors. All of the students I spoke with on my interview day were all just had really positive things to say and I just thought their admissions process was truly holistic. I think that's something A lot of programs say, and I can't speak to other programs, but when I went for my interview and then as well as just like the supplemental essays that you. The prompts that U of M Flint asked about, those were things that I felt truly added on to my application. Because definitely some other programs, it's like they ask for essays that I kind of felt were. I was repeating myself with the other things I had had in my application. And U of M's prompts were just. It allowed me to show like, other aspects of my character and my ethics and kind of like my moral compass.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:10:18]: And I just thought that was really cool. And I made sure to let them know that too when they asked us, like for questions or feedback because it was just something else that I felt made me stand out and just like kind of showed how else or how I carry myself and who I am outside of just the same essays that you kind of send to everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:36]: Now, for every person that's going to graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Now you had a transition out of undergrad into the workforce. You worked for a little bit of time and then you made a transition to graduate school. And as you make those transitions, there's definitely a different bar when it comes to going from undergrad to grad. There's a different way that you're being educated and the expectations are also different. And every person has to be able to maneuver through that for themselves. Now, you found success in graduate school. Thus far, you've been able to maneuver through this process for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:12]: And as you think about the transition that you had going into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey thus far?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:11:27]: That's a great question. The first thing that came to mind, truthfully, was having a good relationship with my therapist, which obviously is not specifically academic related, but that was something I knew I wanted to continue. Just having another person to kind of like a third party to just like really hear me out and help me like process and work through the big, like, emotional changes and just amount of stress I was under with that transition. So he definitely helped me through quite a bit of that and helped me just process and make some good changes to help keep me mentally healthy as well as making sure I could get to class and get through class okay. So that was my first thought for sure for the big transitions. Otherwise, definitely relearning how to be a student. Because like you said, I'd been in the workforce for a few years, and I hadn't truly been, like, studying and getting back into that mindset and kind of unlearning older, not very helpful study habits. I think I had a unique undergrad experience just with being in the pandemic and having constant, like, academic changes of, like, if we could be in person, if we can't, if we're online.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:12:35]: So those were challenging to build, like, good study habits, at least for me. So then coming into grad school with having just even a greater amount of material, but having it come a lot faster and just being more unfamiliar with quite a bit of the material, that was definitely something where I had to really just try different study techniques and different study habits. And as I kind of went through, I realized what was working and what wasn't. So that was definitely something I had to continuously work on and realize, like, hey, I tried this last week. I don't think it worked for me. Or last week, last month, last unit, last body system. Let's try something else this time. And that's something I hear quite a bit from just, like, talking with my other classmates or even myself, looking back to where I was, like, starting the program, for some people, they really figure out what works for them and how to study and like that, and they stick with it.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:13:31]: And that's great for me. It definitely took some trial and error. And I, when asked about it, I truly don't feel like I really had my good study habits down until, like, last fall. It took me a couple semesters, and I'm happy I got to that point. But I'm also okay with the fact that I went through some trial and error, and now I know, like, what sticks and what helps. So that's definitely a big part of the transition, is relearning how to be a student, especially if you're not someone who just finished your undergrad and went right into the program, which is wonderful and advantageous if you have those good study habits. But it was just something I had to relearn and kind of go through. And then I think otherwise.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:09]: For the transition, to set myself up for success, I think it was still keeping in touch with my family. My family is, like, my biggest support system. Coming into the program, I really didn't know anybody. I didn't have any, like, former classmates. My friends who were also on their PA journey were going to different programs. So that was definitely. I leaned on my family quite a bit, and I still do, and I'm very thankful for their support and their Understanding and picking up the phone, even if it's late at night when I just need to talk about something. So that's, I appreciate that a great amount as well, more than I could probably ever say in words otherwise.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:46]: Setting up for success. You just have to keep showing up. I think that was the other thing I learned was even when I was super tired and frustrated of I still couldn't understand a topic or I didn't get through as many questions as I wanted to the night before. Still showing up as much as you can every day and just be willing to just keep showing up for yourself and just keep going. Okay, I know yesterday was hard, but maybe today will be a little better. And that's all you can really do is like just keep showing up for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:14]: Now talk to me a little bit about that connection and that balance that you had to find for yourself. Because you know you're in a program that is a high stress program. It is, there's a lot of expectations. You are on campus and it is a full time program. So it is an intense program. So talk to me about balance and how did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while in graduate school.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:15:38]: For me, I think living on campus definitely helped. I know that was something. When I was considering all the financial aspects of attending a grad school, I was really torn between like commuting or living on campus. And I ultimately kind of chose to live on campus just for the commute and then kind of saving myself a little time that way. So that definitely helped the balance of. I, if I stayed up a little late studying, I could sleep in and still make, get to class with plenty of time even with the weather because we, we love Michigan winters and they're unpredictability. But I think for balance it was, it was something it took me a while to figure out. U of M Flint's program starts in January.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:16:21]: So it's dark when you go to class, it's dark when you come home. The weather's not super great. So definitely that is just a little external factor. But I think overall for balance, it just kind of took me a while to figure out. It was also my first time like truly living alone and making sure to cook for myself. I hadn't really lived alone in that capacity since undergrad and making sure I was able to balance, making sure I could eat, I could eat okay. Making sure I could cook. I definitely meal prepping was super helpful for my balance of I would cook on the weekends and then have things to eat throughout the week and that definitely helped for me.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:16:59]: I could come home, have something ready to eat, and then continue to study or do whatever else I needed to. So that definitely helped. And I'm still continuing to do that as I've gone through grad school. That's helped a lot. And I, I think finding a schedule that works for you. Fridays for me were my cleaning days. I'm someone who thrives on routine. So even just outside of academics, like I liked having, like my Friday was my end of the week.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:17:24]: I would do my grocery shop thing and I would clean and it was like my reset for the week. And then I would go into that, I think definitely focusing more on the outside factors, but I'll get to the academics in a second. But I think otherwise too. I'm just very fortunate, like I mentioned earlier, to have the support of my family, of them knowing that I would wouldn't be able to attend every family party, every event, everything that I really want to. But understanding that this is a two and a two and a third year commitment and they know that it's the career I've been working towards my whole life. So really just thankful for having their support and knowing like, if I can't come home for this, then it's my parents and my sister driving out and going to breakfast on a later week when I don't have an exam. So I really appreciated their flexibility and their willingness to keep me involved as much as they could and make sure they really just emphasize that we know you're working for your career. You have your whole rest of your life to go to family birthday parties and things.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:18:26]: So having that support and understanding really helped me manage that balance and that kind of fear of just missing people and like missing those things when I'm stuck when I'm studying and then academic balance as well. I think something that took me a while to learn too was just understanding that sometimes things might take you longer to understand or to process. I definitely was someone who would see classmates, things just clicked for them or they really just got into their studying pattern right away and they were super successful and I was really happy for them, but then really frustrated that that wasn't happening for me. I felt like I was taking super long to understand the same concepts that they were or stuff just wasn't processing or clicking for me in the same way. And I think once I realized that that's okay and as long as I KE working at it, that definitely helped. I no longer found myself like comparing myself to other classmates. It was more like that's wonderful that they're getting it. Like, that's great, but let's just find a way that you can get it too.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:19:27]: And then definitely just making sure I was sleeping def. I know everyone says, like, oh, you don't really sleep in grad school, but you do have to. That definitely helps your academic performance, is making sure you do get sleep. And then also I'm someone. I learned that studying by myself is for the most part what I need. But sometimes, like studying with a friend or alongside a friend or a group of friends was helpful too, because then you have someone to tap on the shoulder and say, hey, do you get this? Can you explain this to me? And then maybe you can explain a concept to them. So sometimes my hangouts with my classmates would be, we all go to the library together for an evening and just sit at the same big table and study independently, but then have our little breaks where we can kind of chat quietly and compare topics or compare notes. So I feel like the process of balance is truly different for everyone.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:20:20]: If I had to kind of sum up my thoughts, I know I kind of went in a bunch of different directions. But I think that's to say that balance doesn't look the same for everyone. And that's okay. You just have to remember if it's working for you in the sense of you're accomplishing what you need to studying wise, while you're also like taking care of yourself physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, how, in whatever way speaks true for you, then I think that's the best way to figure out, like, if you are really balancing everything to make sure you're still a person throughout while also being like a grad student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:53]: Those are great points. Now also, every one of us go to graduate school, there's a point in time where you hit that wall, that proverbial wall where you say to yourself, am I made for this? Am I? Is this really? Am I going to be good at this? And it's that self doubt, it's that imposter syndrome that everyone faces. And it's hard to explain it and it's hard to help someone to understand it. But talk to me about that for yourself. Did you face it? What did you have to do to be able to handle it? And maybe you're still handling it and that's okay too, but how do you continue to handle it if that's the case too?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:21:31]: Yeah, I definitely had imposter syndrome and definitely at the beginning. And even so, sometimes, like, I was really feeling it before we went to clinicals of just like, I've spent 16 months learning all the textbook stuff. Like, how is that going to be in the. In the real world? Because it's just a whole different aspect of. You no longer have the textbook cases of conditions or diseases you have now, like, true people who aren't going to present in the same way. You learn everything. So definitely was feeling the imposter syndrome there, but at the start of grad school, I definitely was feeling it, like, very much so. I would come home from class and go, how am I going to make it through another two years of this? It's overwhelming.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:22:15]: You just have so many. You're trying to make friends, you're trying to get. Make sure you're getting everything and finding how to study. And I think working through that, I definitely leaned on my therapist. We talked a lot about that. And just ways to remind yourself you were chosen. This program saw something in you and said, she's great, or, they're great, he's great, she's wonderful, great applicant, but we want to help them become a pa because you can. I definitely.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:22:46]: I'm obviously not on the admissions committee, but I kept trying to remind myself, like, they. Jillian, they saw something in you from your application, from your letters of rec, from how you carried yourself in interviews. Like, they saw something in you that said, we want to work with her, we want to help her be a great pa. We want to teach her. And it was constantly, truly reminding myself of that. I had the privilege of being selected, and especially I got into school on my first try, and I know that is not very common to do. So that was also something to just remind myself of. Of like, you were chosen for this.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:23:21]: Like, you obviously want it, and you are. You keep showing up even though you feel that imposter syndrome. And that speaks volumes, like, more than you know. And I think that was also my motivation was I keep showing up and I don't have to be perfect, but if I keep showing up, then that's actively kind of fighting that imposter syndrome. Because it would be so much easier to just hide. And you obviously can't skip class, but it would be so much easier to hide and not go to school at all. But I kept having to remind myself of, you are here, you got here, you worked your butt off to get here. So use the opportunity you have to the fullest and to celebrate that and remind yourself like, you've got through the really hard part of getting in now.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:24:09]: Continue to do what you have been doing and work hard and show up. Even when you show up and you don't really believe in yourself that day, like still show up, ask your questions and make the most of the experience. Because I only plan on doing this once. So definitely something that if it goes away for you, then that's wonderful. But it continues to be something I work through and I just kind of keep giving myself those reminders of you're still here, you're still showing up. Even when you're scared or nervous or don't really know where to go your first day of clinicals, or don't really feel great after an exam, like, you still showed up and you still gave it your all and that's the best thing you can do is just show up for yourself every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:50]: And earlier you talked about when you came into the program, you didn't know anyone. And for some people going to graduate school, that is the case. For others, they may know people going in. But for you, as you are transitioning and going through what you've gone through thus far to where you are right now, how did you go about building those relationships with faculty or peers? And were any of those relationships especially impactful? And if so, how were they impactful to you?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:25:17]: Yeah, I think for me, I ended up living on in our on campus housing for grad students, which is Riverfront. And I kind of got lucky and had some built in camaraderie and friendships with the other people or classmates in my cohort who also lived in Riverfront. That was something where we move in. Day is the Sunday before classes start on that Monday. So we're of course all kind of cramming in. There was a bunch of us that lived on the same floor and I remember sending like a group or a message in our group text of just like, does anybody want to walk together to class tomorrow morning? And we all walked to class together for our first day of grad school. And it was definitely just nice having those people. It's like you see them in class all day, but then you can come home.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:26:02]: And it was like having kind of built in study partners of it was just something nice where we could say like, oh, we have an empty classroom on the second floor, Riverfront, if you want to come and just study in a group, like feel free. And we just built some friendships based on that. I think it's easy to form friendships when you're going through something as challenging as grad school because you're all in it the same way. And it's definitely something challenging maybe for other people. To understand. So that was definitely helpful, is we all were in the same place all the time. We all knew what was going on, and. And we're all kind of helping each other through that, so that definitely helped.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:26:40]: And then as, like, my cohort, like, went through and continued onto the program, I think we all definitely just, like, got to know each other more and got to, like, figure out our personalities. And once we got over being completely scared, maybe that first month, like, we just started, like, letting our personalities shine through more, and I think that definitely helps. We have a lot of. A lot of, like, fun and creative personalities in our cohort. And I. It's just a cool mix of people. I definitely would say my best friend, probably in the program is Kate, and she is just wonderful. And I think that was just the combination of.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:27:15]: Part of it is we sit next to each other in class. So that was really cool just having someone to, like, chat with. But I don't know, I feel like we got to a point where we just, like, found ourselves hanging out more. And she's just someone I can talk to about anything. And I'm just really grateful to have met her. But truly, everyone in Riverfront, like, I'm, I think, the only student in my cohort who still lives there. We've all kind of spread out, but we still have our Riverfront group chat where we'll, like, chat and see how everyone's doing. So that's been really great just to kind of get to meet people that I probably would have never met otherwise or.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:27:47]: And then we're all going to be co workers in the future. So that's really neat. And then with faculty, I definitely think it's like, coming into grad school, you're like, oh, I have to impress my professors. Like, these are also going to be my co workers at some point in the future, which is really cool and also just kind of different to think about, because you think about, like, your professors, and they are a lot of times, like other experts in their field. And unless you're going into that field, it's just different to think about. But I think for me, I was just a person who asked a lot of questions. And I'm also someone who wears her emotions on her face. So if I wasn't getting a topic, it was pretty clear.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:28:27]: And I think that kind of helped my professors, too. I know one Professor Raymakers, she taught us more in our summer term. And she's also my academic advisor, so I would talk with her more. And she was someone where she would Be like, I really appreciate that you wear your emotions on your face, because I can see when you're not getting something. And then I suspect other people might not be getting it too. So she knows maybe I need to explain something else differently. And that's also really cool. I think, as well, for faculty.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:28:55]: To me, it was just really clear that all of the U of M Flint PA faculty want us to succeed like they do. They ask for so many surveys, and they really ask for our feedback as much as they can. And I think it's pretty clear that they take our feedback seriously because they just want the program to be the best it possibly can, and they want us to be the best, best PA students and then PAs that we can be. So that definitely came through in the interviews. And then just as a student moving through the program and getting to, like, work with all of our different staff and faculty, I just really think it shows that they care. And then for me as well, I. Within the PA program, we have the PA Student Society, or pass, and every cohort has their PASS officer, and we all vote. And the past officers help organize different events and work with faculty for different things.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:29:50]: And I was actually elected by my classmates to be the president of my cohort. So I've had the unique privilege to work with faculty and meetings and really be kind of a bridge between students and faculty. And it's been a really unique experience to kind of be a point person for students and have people feel comfortable coming to me and saying, this thing is happening and this is really challenging for us. Could you bring this up to the professors and see what we could do? And I've been able to do that and really be a voice for my classmates, and it's been really cool. So I think I've been. Or I've had the privilege of being able to be that person and then just get to know faculty more throughout that role. And it's just really cool. I think coming into grad school, I didn't really know what to expect with, like, that relationship with your professors, and I'm just really grateful that I have those relationships with them and my.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:30:44]: And the cohort does, too. I. I truly do just think it comes across as they care so much and they just want their students to be as successful as they possibly can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:52]: And I think that's really important because whether you're going through a physician assistant program, a medical school program, a law school program, walking into that classroom your first day, it is intimidating. And there will be times in which you will be Scared to speak up and to have your voice heard because of the fact that you don't feel that you have the knowledge to be able to impress the faculty. And one of the things that I would say to you is that you don't have to impress. You're there to learn. And all of your faculty know that. They don't expect you to be experts. They don't expect you to be where they are because they had to go through the same thing that you went through along the way. So it's their role to facilitate that learning and to help you to be able to get to the point of competence.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:42]: Competence in the knowledge that you need for the profession or for the academic area, but also the ability for you, to push you and to challenge you and to get you to a point where you are confident in your own abilities to be able to, whether it's in the medical field, to be that advocate it and to be that practitioner that is going to be able to help your, your patients or in some other area where you're working with a computer or you're working with other co workers. So just know that. Know that there is going to be a point in time where you're going to feel that way and that's perfectly fine. But also know that at by the end of the program you will be in a different place. And that's what Jillian is talking about, is you start one place, you'll end at another one. Now Jillian, as you think back to your own graduate school experience and you think of other people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going to become a physician assistant or something completely different, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:32:47]: This is such a good question. I think definitely do your research on the programs that you're applying to. Whether like you said, that's PA programs, whether that's for law, whether that's for engineering, do the research and ask the questions for of the admissions teams and try and find programs that match. Maybe your personality is not the best term, but match like who you are, what you want out of a graduate experience. Because if you're going to invest your time, your money and your education into a program and put that in their hands, definitely make sure it's a program that you are sure you would want to attend if an admissions offer was extended to you. That definitely I'm very grateful. I did a lot of research into to my PA programs and I'm grateful I chose to apply to U of M. Flint because I truly do think that their values, as well as their admissions process and speaking to other students, they just really reflected what I wanted out of my graduate program.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:33:46]: And I think that's definitely why I chose to apply here. And I have found success as I've gone through. It's not been without its challenges, but I definitely know that the program and I mesh well with like our expectations and what our values are. So that definitely was helpful. So I would say do your research 100% percent. Ask the questions if you have them. All the programs I worked with, their admissions teams were very kind and responding to emails and just answering my questions. So that was wonderful.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:34:14]: And I would say as well, if you're considering applying to grad school, remind yourself that it will be challenging at times, like no matter what you do, but just remember that you have the courage to just apply and put yourself out there. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to phrase it, but do it because you're sure you want it and do it only for yourself. Whether it's other people might have expectations for you, but make sure you do it because you want it, and that's what you can see yourself doing. Grad school can be a very challenging process and making sure that it's something you truly want, that's definitely helpful too. And I think that goes into your research. As you can see, maybe this program doesn't necessarily mesh with me or how I think or things. So that definitely, I think, ties back into that and I think just finding success sooner. Just understand too that once you get in or even, even just through the whole admissions process and the application process, just remind yourself it's impossible to compare yourself to other students.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:35:14]: Even if you have similar statistics or similar backgrounds in the education or the work that you did to get to that point of applying and working through that process. Comparing yourself, it's never going to help you. It's never really going to give you anything to compare yourself to besides like more nerves or more anxiety. Every applicant is so different. Even, even if you have similar stats, similar grades, similar gpa, everyone is so unique. So it's hard to. I would argue it's kind of impossible to compare yourself to applicants. And then once you're through and once you're in a program, it's hard to compare yourself to other students.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:35:54]: Everyone has to take the time to find their own journey and through what works, how best to study, how best to balance your work, your school and your life. Because. Because I know I don't have any children, but I know students with children. That's a whole other area that I could not compare myself to because their process of studying and just managing is so different than mine. So reminding yourself that everyone's journey is so vastly different and comparing yourself is just. While it might be easy to do, or your anxiety might be telling you, or your fear, your nerves, like, oh, just compare. Because it's something. It's like almost something to do.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:36:33]: Remind yourself that you are completely unique and independent of everyone else. Even if you're in the same program, no one is going to be the same. And just it might take you more time than others. Like it did with me with, like, finding that balance and finding what study techniques or things work for you, or just reminding that imposter and the imposter feeling inside you like, hey, it's okay. You can still be here, but you're not running the show. So just don't compare yourself to anyone else. Remind yourself you are you and you are wonderful and I know you're working hard. And don't be afraid to find your own journey through grad school.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:37:09]: It's okay that it doesn't look like everybody else's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:12]: Well, Jillian, I just want to say thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for being here, for the honesty and the openness because it's not always easy to go through graduate school. It's good to put that out there, and it's great to be able to allow for others to be able to learn and grow from your own experience. And I just want to say thank you. I know, I know you've still got a little bit of time left in the program, and that's great. And I'm excited to be able to see what happens next in this clinical part of your education that you're going through. But also as you get ready and you go off into the workforce where you end up, I'm excited about that as well. And I just want to say thank you again and I wish you all the best.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:37:50]: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share about my experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:55]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in your continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Thinking about graduate school? Whether you're a seasoned professional considering a return to academia or a recent grad mapping out your next steps, the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast offers invaluable insights you won't want to miss.

Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Keith Kelley, Associate Dean and Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint's School of Management, for a candid conversation about the winding, often unexpected paths of graduate education. From his undergraduate days at the University of New Hampshire to his journey through master's and doctoral programs at Florida International University, Dr. Keith Kelley shares stories of setbacks, pivots, perseverance, and growth.

Embracing a Nonlinear Path

One of the episode's central themes is that the road to and through grad school is rarely straightforward. Dr. Keith Kelley openly discusses his early academic struggles, time spent working and traveling, and how these life experiences led him to find his true academic passions later on. He reminds listeners that it's okay if your journey isn't perfectly mapped out—sometimes, the best opportunities arise from unexpected detours.

Humility, Commitment, and Resilience

Returning to school after time in the workforce required Dr. Keith Kelley to humble himself and fully commit to being a student again. He emphasizes embracing lifelong learning, asking questions, and being open to growth. When setbacks happen—as they inevitably do—persistence and support networks are key. Dr. Keith Kelley candidly reflects on his own moments of doubt and the friends and mentors who helped him dust himself off and keep moving forward.

Balancing Life and Learning

Grad school isn't just about academic rigor—it's about balance. Dr. Keith Kelley offers practical advice on time management, scheduling, and leveraging campus resources, from study spaces to mental health services. He stresses the importance of making space for family, friends, and recovery, which ultimately helps mitigate burnout and enhances productivity.

The Power of Community and Networking

Perhaps the most enduring lesson is the value of building a strong network. The relationships you form with classmates, professors, and colleagues can lead to professional opportunities, mentorship, and vital support throughout your career and personal life.

If you're seeking real-world advice—and some entertaining stories—from someone who's walked the walk, be sure to listen to this episode. "Victors in Grad School" delivers the perspective, encouragement, and tools you need to succeed on your own grad school journey.

Tune in and start charting your path today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you show up, that you are here trying to prepare yourself for this journey that you're going on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. And for every person thinking about graduate school, it is a journey that you will be on from the very beginning as you're starting to look at programs, through the application process, as you matriculate and enter into the graduate program itself. And through the program, you're going to be learning things, you're going to be adjusting things, and you're going to be figuring things out as you go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: This podcast was developed to help you just with that, to be able to provide you with some perspectives, some experiences, some things that you can think about to help you to find success, success in your graduate school journey sooner. That's why every week I love having different people with different experiences that can share their own journey with you. And today we've got another great guest. Dr. Keith Kelley is with us today. And Dr. Kelly is a professor of professor in the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's also the Associate Dean of the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and to be able to have him share some of his own experiences and introduce him to you as well. Keith, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:01:41]: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. And I can't wait to share my experiences and hopefully people can relate to that and maybe learn a little something about my journey and similarities and, of course, lessons that I've learned along the way. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I know that you did your bachelor's degree at UNH, at UNH Peter Paul College of Business and Economics. You got a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration in International Affairs. And then you went went off, you went off, you got some experiences, you started using that bachelor's degree to do some different things out in the world. But at some point, at some point, you made a decision, you made a decision that you were not done, that you wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:24]: Well, let me go back just about the education part, which you were just referring to. So I actually got my degree from the Whittemore School of Business and Economics renamed. So the name that you gave there. These schools change in name over time. Unh and UNH is my home state. But that's not. What I'm trying. Trying to say here is that I actually started out at Bentley College, which is now a university in Waltham, Mass.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:45]: And probably a lot of people can relate to this is that I didn't do well when I started out. I went to a business school. I basically applied to three schools. I got into all of them. Bentley was my kind of second school, which is a good school, but I couldn't really afford the one that I really wanted to go to, which is Babson. And so when I started out there, I didn't really do particularly well. And after a few years I was like, well, wait a minute, let's pause on this, on my education. And I was kind of lucky in the sense that I took a moment to just kind of explore what was the purpose of me getting an education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:14]: And then I did a little introspection, a little traveling, and then I ended up in Costa Rica and Venezuela for quite some time. And that's how I came back to the degrees that you mentioned with business and international affairs. This is right about the time when Hugo Chavez had come to power in Venezuela. And I was experiencing, you know, this in real time, what can happen with countries. And so I came back and I was like, okay, well this is something that I'm interested in studying. And then I was fortunate to have support of my grandparents who were. Their alma mater was Unh. And so I got my education there, finished my degrees and.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:43]: And then I was working in a cubicle in a tech company in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Going in at night and going in during the day and it was dark and coming out at night and it was dark. And I was like, is this what my life is going to be like? And at this point I had quite a bit of experience with Latin America. I'm going to South Florida, I'm going to Miami. And so I kind of pursued my career down there and. And then I ended up in working for a number of years like many people do before they go into grad school and, you know, getting to the point where maybe my career is stagnating a little bit, and ended up going back to grad school not for the purposes of just going to get my education, but education is a very non nonlinear process for some of us. And so I never thought that it was going to end up where I am today. But like any great story of grad school, it begins with a man or a woman.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:23]: So I had a girlfriend at the time who was interested in a program at my next alma mater, Florida International University, and she was going back to a music program there. And I said, well, it's time for me to go back to grad school. And they had a great international business program there. So I was like, let me go and join some of their international business programs. It was the best decision I ever made. And so I ended up doing my master's in international business there because there was a real passion with Latin America, and I was really excited about that. And I ended up basically meeting a whole bunch of different cultures and people, and my network there was just fantastic. So I would certainly say that that's one of the best experiences that I had that was unexpected about graduate school.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:59]: And then towards the end of that, this was right around 2007 and 2008, when I was going to grad school, one of the professors there was talking to me about going on and doing my doctorate. And I had never considered that before in my life. And we're heading into a little bit of a recession. I was like, well, maybe this is a sign that this is something that I want to do, because it's really passionate about learning and education and all of these things with business and affairs. And so I ended up down in Miami, nonlinear path, Coming out of the University of New Hampshire, but starting in another college, not doing well, and kind of transitioning myself into various different ways. And that's how I ended up in grad school. Great decision, great network of people. And that's how I got into pursuing my doctorate as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:05:35]: Just a lot of things happen by chance. So I would say that my. My opportunities presented themselves, for sure, but none of them were precisely planned out. So say that I could probably relate to a lot of people, but not necessarily 100% sure what they're going for in life. And we always have to pivot and make adjustments. And, you know, education has really paid off for me. It's been one of the best, best tools that I've had for kind of advancing my life and getting to where I am today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: You talked just a second ago about all these transitions. And every person that goes through graduate school has to go through a number of transitions. You go through a transition from for yourself, going and getting a bachelor's degree to transitioning out of education into the workforce. Figuring what that was like. Then as you move down to Miami and you figure out, I'm going to go back to school, then it's transitioning back into school, into now a graduate degree. And even going from a master's degree into a doctorate degree is a transition. As you look at and you think about the transitions that you went through from bachelor's to master's to doctorate degrees, what are some of the things that you had to do to be at the very beginning to be able to set yourself up for success? And what are some things that you had to do as you were going through the programs to maintain and continue that success to the very end?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:06:48]: Yeah, well, let's say it's especially at the, you know, going back to school after spending a number of years just working professionally, you have to make the adjustment of committing to school, committing to education, and humble yourself a little bit as well. So I think that I humbled myself a great deal going into the doctoral programs. But, you know, coming back to graduate school for my master's degree, you really have to commit to your education. And so I think that, as I mentioned, I was pursuing a little bit of an interest in some of the subject matter for international business, and I hadn't really fully committed to the university of the school, but once I started out, I realized, realized that it was really something I had a huge passion for and working with the students that I was in my cohort with, going back to school and making sure that I embraced the work with. With others and making sure that I fully committed to doing the work that I had for my instructors and. And really taking advantage of the fact that there's a great deal of opportunity for me to learn and to benefit from opportunities within the graduate school as well. And it's a different environment as, as many people realize. And so as I've transitioned into education now, I realize this.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:07:47]: A lot of people who are working professionals, their cup is pretty full with a professional experience. And so they come in, especially in the school of management, with our, you know, kind of business focus. They come in and they have a great deal of experience, they're leaders in their fields. And you have to humber yourself a little bit in the sense that you're kind of going back to school to learn how to do something a little bit differently, learn how to think critically and learn how to develop new pathways for doing things. And so it's tough sometimes when you've been out there and you're having a little bit of success to come back and Say, okay, well, I'm no longer the master, I'm the student. It's a really important lesson for you, both with the instructor and also with your colleagues, is they all have different ways of doing things. They work for different companies, they work for different organizations, and so they're bringing their expertise, and you really need to have an opportunity to listen to what they have to say and how they do things. Because I think that that's one of the best parts about education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:08:31]: You're always listening. You find things unexpectedly, like our journeys. We find things, little nuggets of information, little ways that you never thought about doing something. And then all of a sudden you're. You're onto something really spectacular. And so humbling yourself and going back to education, fully committing yourself is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:47]: You know, it is really important and definitely something that you're going to have to do. As you said, humble yourself and know that you're going to potentially make some mistakes along the way. And you might fall, you might trip, but you have to dust yourself off and be resilient along the way as well. Talk to me about a moment, a moment in your doctorate or your master's degree where you ran up against that wall where you struggled and you had to dust yourself off and pick yourself back up. And how did you do that?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:09:15]: Some great examples of this, my colleagues in my doctoral program, in the doctoral program in particular, is an interesting one because really, it's a really different animal than even your master's degrees. And so going back into that area, I hadn't done a great deal with statistics, and I hadn't seen a lot of, you know, just basic classwork things. And I recall that just annotations, mathematical statistical annotations such as X bar, you know, what is, what is X bar? My friends laugh at me in this moment. What is X bar? And it just basically means the mean, the average of something, right? And I'm looking at the statistics and they, some of them are professional students and they don't really. They don't really recognize the fact that if you're not into this field for quite some time, even though you understand the principles of physics, you're not necessarily understanding some of the notations. And so, you know, in some of the, the quizzes, I'm confused by some of the. Just the basics of how we mark things down, what they represent, which is comical. And another instance in my doctoral program in particular, which is kind of surprising, writing a paper for an international business class.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:08]: And, you know, I thought that I was doing Particularly well in my paper. And I was just, just expanding on many different thoughts and chasing down all kinds of different ideas and jumping down every rabbit hole that I could find, which was not how you do quality research, which I came to find out. And this was really my first year and being in the doctoral program and really kind of an eye opening experience for me. It's a different type of writing, different style of writing, and a different commitment to precision and scientific process and research. And so the guy that gave me, I think, a B plus or something like that, which is not really a great grade for your doctoral studies, you know, basically, you know, kind of a wake up call for me. And he was the guy who ended up recruiting me into the program. So I think it was doubly disappointing for him and me and the mark of shame. And so I, you know, I humbled myself again.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:52]: I said, okay, Keith, what went wrong? Why didn't you do this? Well, and, and kind of learned from that lesson. And I've gone on to have a great deal of success in that, that area. My writing style has improved. I've never, never been shy about saying that I'm not a doctor in English, but you have to do a great deal of writing and, and work on your writing style even, and the idea of doing quality research and being prec. Things that you say and how you represent, Measure things. So I think those are two great experiences. And it's a, it's an arduous process going through. This is, it takes a lot of time.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:11:21]: And you know, a great story about that is that I, when I was being somewhat recruited into the doctoral program from the, the master's degree, the guy, you know, he recognized that I was pretty sharp guy. But you know, it's difficult to tell some of the things that are needed for success in your doctoral programs. But I remember him walking me into the office of the, the chair of the department and asking if I was married and, you know, talking about my lifestyle. And he's suggesting that I might not be married after I finished my doctoral. It's a, it's a large commitment and so very taxing on your life and, and a very unique experience. And so a lot of those moments will pop up along the way. And I think a lot of people don't realize that as part of their educational process is that you're going to have moments when you're down, you want to give up. And it's not just about your intelligence, it's not just about success any one particular semester.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:05]: It's you know, the journey is a long one. It often requires that you have help along the way. I had some great friends in all of my studies, both master doctoral level studies, great supporters. And so look for support along the way because I think that's a, you know, a vital aspect of this is that you will have your ups and downs. You have those moments where you feel like you've been pushed down the stairs. And if you have your family around you, you have your colleagues around you, and you have great professors and mentors and some of that is spended on your forming relationships with these people that will help you out. And it's the, the education is one element of it, but there's also a degree component of it too. So there's a lot of people that don't end up finishing their doctoral degree because they can't get through the entirety of the process of both their courses and their dissertation in same thing with a lot of degrees, you can get your education without having a degree.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:49]: And the degree is certainly worthwhile, I would say, in terms of the views of employers. So it's also probably a little bit of a black mark. If you started a program and you didn't finish it, what does that say about your employment prospects if you're looking for a job? So bear those things in mind is finishing and having the requisite support groups around you is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Talking about those supports. When you're going through graduate school, you have to balance a lot. You've got to wear a lot of hats. You've got to figure out what that balance is, whether you are working, you have a family, you have other responsibilities or commitments. Talk to me about how did you balance school, work, family, other responsibilities that you had while you were going through graduate school?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:27]: Boy, yeah, that's a tough one. You have to find your time. A lot of the people that we work with here, students in the University of Michigan Flint and School of Management, are working and family oriented. And you know, they have tough schedules. So I think a lot of that is just a bit of scheduling. So, you know, I think the things that we do with our students here is that we try to give them a routine, we try to give them predictable schedules. And as a student going through this experience, I think that's what you look for. You look for, when are the deadlines, when do I need to heavily commit myself, when is it going to be taxing on my family or take me away.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:58]: And I think that's true for just about anything that I do these days. Is That I just have to plan, you know, I have to see what's out there, look at the classes, when are things due? When is that going to really tax my schedule? And then as I'm doing right now, for instance, during the summertime, where things have lightened up a little bit, I'm like, well, I'm going to maximize my opportunities with my family. Family, or maximize my opportunities with my friends. And then I know when we come back to school, for instance, in the. In the fall, you know, things are going to ramp up and my time commitments are going to be much more heavy on the school and the focus that I have as an associate dean. The same thing was going through graduate school. You just have to look out ahead and say, okay, well, this is where I lose my family. You know, these are the moments where basically you guys are going to have to support me and know that I'm just going to go into my room or I'm going to go and do something, and you guys are going to have to find your own activities.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:14:43]: And maybe even some of that would be, you know, kind of an idea that you have too, is that right now I help with planning for my family and say, finding activities for them to do, knowing that I can't join them. And so that's a little bit of what I did then, too, is like, well, you guys can have fun. I'm not going to be there, but here's some fun for you to have. And. And I hope you guys enjoy yourselves and that you're not just, you know, waiting in another room for me. But I think that's a key element. Find out when things are due, plan your schedule around that, and try to maximize the opportunities that you do have time, because that's going to make the rest of the time a little bit easier as well, is that if you're not losing out on moments of your life when you have the. So if you have a moment, you have a day, you have a couple of days where you can do stuff with your family that you absolutely do, that you do that with your friends.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:21]: And, you know, mental health is a key element of this, too, as you learn as an adult and you go along, you know, building in times where you can recover so that you're more productive in the times when you're working heavily and focusing on your career potentially.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And every person at times can be frustrated, they can be challenged, they can go through a process of, I'm going to call it burnout, where they are pushing and pushing and pushing, and they are trying to achieve and they're achieving, but. But then they hit that, as I said earlier, that wall. How did you avoid burnout or recover from it if you ever hit that burnout phase in your own graduate school experience?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:56]: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of these moments where I envision myself in the future and I see myself days or weeks away and knowing that there's going to come a moment in time and for those of us that have gone through a great deal of education or done a lot of this accomplishments, you know that in the future there'll come a day where you'll just be able to wake up in the morning and you won't have anything to do. Pre plan, mind you, you could have things that you want to do. But I think visioning and envisioning these, these kind of future moments of times when you know it'll all be over for a brief moment in time where this too shall pass. This is a tough moment, but I think a lot of it has to do with just being open and honest and communicating with people that may be causing you pressure for burnout and saying. And that includes yourself taking moments and saying, okay, look, right Now I'm operating at 50 productivity and the best thing that I could possibly do is just stop for a couple of moments and the world will keep spinning. I think a lot of us believe that we're so central to everything that we do that we can't stop doing whatever it is that we're doing for a moment in time and recover. And that's not true. It's oftentimes not the case at all.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:16:55]: You can, you know, have people wait a few days and they'll be forgiving. And you know, this is something you just have to build into your schedule to say, okay, well I'm going to recover. And if you don't do that, then you will burn out. So I think that the lesson there is trying to avoid the burnout out. And when you get to that point where you're starting to feel it, and oftentimes it's indicated by mistakes, simple mistakes, then it's time to say, okay, well, I need a vacation. You talk with people about that. Look, I'm fatigued, I'm burning out. And just try to figure out what is the things that you absolutely need to do and to make some time for yourself and then figure out what it is that you, you like to do to recover.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:17:26]: So what is it that's going to make you recover? So I think those are key elements that help me along the way. And again, if you surround yourself with people that are familiar with the process and that are supportive, then that's going to help you out a great. Because when those times come and they will, they'll be ready to support you and they'll, they'll understand.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]: Every person has to identify and look on their own campus to find the things that will help them to be successful. Whether it's a faculty member, a specific office, a special place where they're studying, whatever it might be. Were there any campus resources or campus things that you had to rely on that and it could be organizations or resources or more that helped you in supporting your overall success?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:09]: Well, we, I think we had, when I was at Florida International University in grad school and both levels, I think we had a lot of spaces where we could collaborate. They were, you know, somewhat relaxed. And so I know that they had a Starbucks in the first floor of the library. So right as you walked in, you were, you know, walking past places where you could get caffeinated. And it was like an oasis in the middle of the university. And so, you know, we would go in there for quiet times and studying and we could find floors where we could study. And they had lots of resources versus books and databases and all kinds of things in there where, you know, I could, I could get help. And then from the perspective of what sport I had at Florida International when I was in the, in the College of Business, I think that was the other thing is that they provided a few opportunities for us to just.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:50]: We were hovering around the College of Business frequently interacting with professors and just, you know, we were just there. And whenever we needed a hand with something, we wanted to talk, the people were there. And so I would say if you provide spaces and find those spaces for you to make that work, that's a great opportunity for you to just have help when you need it. And again, you know, I keep coming back to this element of networks and friends. A lot of people that I went to school with became, you know, really good friends of mine. And so my safe space and my support group was also the people that I went to school. If I needed a hand with something, if I had a lot of friends, chances are somebody among those friends knew how to solve a problem that I didn't know how to solve or could help me. And just some cases, just the mental support of just working on a problem together.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:19:36]: If they're around and they're, you know, you, you nurture those relationships, they take of care of you as well. So you know, there was the library, of course. We have an excellent library at the University of Michigan, Flint. You know, it's beautiful, you know, and those are places that I would oftentimes go in because there are places where you could focus and study and find different levels and areas that you could find the things that you need. And they also are places that can help you find the precise resources that you need. I think a lot of us tread water sometimes looking for things and using those resources. The library, for instance, they know how to find things that you may not know are like easier ways to do things or better information and so on and so forth. So I think those are the key elements of success is I didn't end up using a lot of the counseling and psychological services.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:15]: I used my friends and my colleagues for that purposes, but they're there as well. So I would just say find your space, your college is your home. Find some sort of mentor that you're working with. You know, we all have mentors that we, we have with, with our faculty and find your network of friends and colleagues that you work well with and can support you. And they can also direct you to campus resources as well. We offer a ton of support here at the University of Michigan, Flint. I would think that those opportunities are out there for people to exploit and a lot of times they don't, but they should. So, you know, for my studies, I realized that that that is a huge time saving component of doing any of your work is leveraging the resources that universities provide.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:52]: We provide them for a reason. Right. So there's a reason why they're there. And sometimes we don't capitalize as much as we can. And certainly in my journeys, I would say I probably learned that lesson along the way. So I would encourage everybody to learn that quicker than I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:04]: It definitely is a learning process and you have to kind of get those bumps and bruises along the way to be able to come out out unscathed in the end. But hopefully by listening and learning from people like you and the experience that you've had, you can avoid some of those as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:21]: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: Going through a program like a business program, there may have been opportunities to be able to get that real world experience you talked about, the opportunities to be able to connect with people from all over the place with lots of different backgrounds. And that's one of the benefits of going through graduate school. Talk to me about those interactions and how those helped you to become who you are, are today.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:42]: Yeah, I mean, I have some wonderful stories about that. So, you know, one of the first opportunities that I had with a kind of a internship consulting experience with my grad school is that a lot of people may not know this, but I went as part of a supply chain class and worked for what we called, I think at the time, the Drive 25 for Spirit Airlines. And so the airline formerly known as Spirit that has gone by the wayside, and this was back in 2007, 2008, and we did a project where we went from Miami, I think we flew out of the Fort Lauderdale airport up to Orlando, where they had a central hub, and we wanted to look for their operations. And so what Spirit Airlines does is they. They make their money, or they did. They make their money from basically keeping the planes in the air as fast as you possibly can. And so one of the first things that we noticed is that everything was being reimbursed for them at the company, but they wanted us to, I guess, pay for check on checked luggage. And so what you ended up seeing, and this was a very unique thing.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:22:36]: A lot of people that are looking at this probably don't have any work world other than paying for all of your luggage all over the place for the lower fare aircraft and airlines. And so when we did this, the first thing that we do is we don't. We had small bags. We're just hopping up to Orlando to do some consulting work on their operations. We'll just take them onto the airplane. And so as soon as you get into the terminal in the gate, you see some of the problem that's occurring. And this is basically, it takes them an hour to an hour and a half to get people on and off the airplane, which is not something which is good for economy carriers. And so this is consulting work where we're looking at how fast they load their gas.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:07]: Gas and check their safety and all kinds of stuff. But the thing that is readily apparent is they have a policy of basically charging for checked bags, which forces people to want to bring them onto the aircraft, which means that everybody's got. Every time I tell the story, it gets larger and larger that the people have got goats and chickens that they're bringing onto the. Onto the plane because they don't want to check any of the things they have. And they've just got so much stuff that it's taking forever. And this is like an. You know, I keep talking about this experience because, you know, you see the policies that Spirit put into place and other airlines have put into place and whether or not they worked and they didn't work, but we did consulting work for airlines and working tightly with my colleagues, working with catering experiences and understanding, like, you know, culture and. And later on in my doctoral studies, I did work for Service Employees International Union.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:50]: And, you know, we had financial crisis in some of the larger healthcare systems in Miami. And there's lots of benefits that come from that. Both you learning about how various operations work, but also getting experience and to working with colleagues and how they work and how they operate and learning how to basically improve the way that you interact with a lot of other people. So I think that's a key area that you should capitalize on whenever you're going to grad school, is take advantage of the opportunities and the connections that a lot of the universities have with organizations for real world learning experiences. The thing that I love about teaching in the graduate programs is all of the stories, every problem that comes up, especially in management, when we're talking in a classroom of what somebody themselves is going through from a personally challenging experience with their organization, their business, and then trying to solve that in a way that's readily translated into the class subject matter. So this is an excellent opportunity to get lots of perspectives with a lot of people going through similar challenges as you. And the only thing that you really, you know, make sure that you're aware of, you're not taking advantage of internships and things of that nature, as I mentioned, and take advantage of the opportunity to voice your concerns, voice your challenges with your organization, and speak in class, because these are bits of information that are worthy of conversation and solutions. So speak up.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:01]: And this will be an excellent opportunity for you to learn and also teach. So there's a lot of teaching that goes on. A lot of the teaching that goes on at the graduate level in particular comes from the students themselves and the classmates that you have. What do they do in this situation? What challenges are they having? And you get together and you form strong groups of solving challenges and problems. So internships are great. You can find some strange ones along the way. And you find yourself in a strange moment in history with Spirit Airlines, as I did. And I never thought at the time that I would have all these great stories about Spirit Airlines.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:27]: And there they were because of where I was in the world, their geographic location, some of their hubs, but also some of the policies that they put in place. And the aftermath of that. And they still never really got a hold of their operations, but some of their policies, they either had to stop covering the. The prices for checking their bags or they had to charge for bringing things on the plane. And we know which one they chose in that one. They chose for charging for your carry on bags so that people would limit the amount of stuff they brought onto the plane so they could basically bring in the aircraft and they could push the aircraft back and essentially it was 40 minutes in order to be profitable. So they actually did that fairly well. But they, they still had some issues with canceling their flights and a whole bunch of other stuff which is interesting to see.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:04]: I think that's an excellent part about being in grad school too, is that a lot of professionals are working at moments in time in history with their organizations that are interesting. I've gone through so many experiences here where, where people are dealing with wage compression and Covid and had personal issues with the Flint water crisis here. And you know, many years ago we've had all these challenges within organizations that we've gone through together and we've all talked about. And that's an excellent opportunity for you to kind of vet your experiences, share your experiences, get feedback and we all power through together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: Now, as you think back to your graduate school experiences, what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:40]: I would say going back and just building on the networking capital, taking more opportunities of that. I think that I had a great situation where things naturally evolved, where I kind of have a network of people that emerged out of the graduate programs and I seem seemingly was lucky. So in reflection, I would say I was probably more lucky in that regard that if I had gone back in time and, and somebody told me, well Keith, you really need to focus on your network. This is right about the time that Facebook is coming along and you know, LinkedIn, I don't know that that had been heard of when I went to my first graduate program. A lot of these things that we recognize now as being part of how we operate, building in good relationships and making sure that you nurture those relationships and you don't take them for granted. When you have opportunities to meet people from all, all over the organizational spectrum and really develop these relationships that carry on to the future. Now it doesn't really affect me too much in the sense that I've kind of gone into academia and most of my colleagues from this period of time outside of the doctoral program have gone into, you know, they developed themselves professionally and they're working for large real estate companies or they're doing agency work for soccer organizations or whatever it happens to be. But had I gone and developed some of These relationships a little bit better, you could capitalize on them from a number of different perspectives.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:27:52]: So I think that's the key, is that the education is good for the actual lessons that you have in your class. But especially at the graduate level, I would say that your opportunities to share experiences and to build up your network so that you can reach out to people in the future that may have jobs or that you may want to hire. In addition to that, just the overall reaching out for mentorship and mental support, I think that matters a great deal too, is that if you build up your network, there a lot of people that you can reach out to are people that you just talk about a problem and they don't have to solve it for you, but they've been there before and they can hear you. And so I think that also helps with avoiding burnout and mental fatigue. And as you go up, you know what? A lot of us go to graduate school because we're trying to rise up in organizations and take more responsibility. And a lot of us that get into these roles of more responsibility realize that having good colleagues and friends that you can just talk with every once in a while, building mentor relationships, you know, that can be cross mentor relationships will help you through some tough times, times. And the more people that you have like that, the better they can provide resources. But the most important resource of all is probably just their time and being able to listen and talk through a problem and sometimes just unwind about a problem from a professional perspective or from a friend perspective.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:01]: So I wish that I had nurtured some of my relationships a little bit better so I'd have more of those people. I was lucky. But if I had been more deliberate my efforts and more calculating, I probably could have a lot more friends across the spectrum of organizations all over the world that are those sorts of friends. Not. Not just the Facebook acquaintances or just somebody that I just went to school with and I casually know, but good friends, people that you talk with frequently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:23]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate school experiences, what are some additional tips outside of what you've already said, that you might offer others considering graduate education, whether it's in business or some other area that would help them find success sooner.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:37]: Yeah. So I think that key element is trying to figure out what exactly are you going to school for and what is your end game. I feel like that's one thing that in my life, I haven't done as well. Well, the things that I've accomplished, I feel at some level have kind of Found me. And I know those things are kind of interlaced with your background and your, your work and your efforts and whatnot. But I would say making sure that you do your research, you find out about each program, what's it going to be like? You know, what are all the resources you indicated? There's all these resources that universities provide and programs provide, and there's multiple elements associated with going through a graduate program in terms of the time of the class and, you know, the cost of any program. That's a, that's another. When can I finish? How often are classes, classes offered? A lot of us want to go to school and we're not considering all the little elements associated with the value of education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:30:23]: And value, as you mentioned earlier, is like, well, how do you balance going to school with your commitments to your family and your friends and other things? So some of those things are important as well. So the value that your education can provide is providing you with a, you know, kind of a structured system in which case you can plan for those opportunities to be with your family and take advantage of opportunities that you have. And that's kind of hidden balance value, scholarship. And I'm coming from a background of, you know, the school of management and a business person. So everything I look at is return on investment, you know, what do you want out of your education? Can this education provide that? And what are all the hidden costs associated with education? And some of that is just not being consistent with scheduling and not providing flexibility and not providing a lot of things that also people are balancing when they're going back to grad school in particular, you know, so it's not as though our undergraduates don't have oftentimes jobs or families they're committed to and other things, but in grad school, typically you're going to school school and you're already in the, the midst of a full career and a family and other things, then you need to really balance those things as well. So planning and investigating, you know, asking all kinds of questions, you know, ask more questions than you think you should. So if you go to an event and people are not asking questions, ask questions. If you go to an event and people are asking questions, ask questions.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:31:34]: And if you feel like you've already asked a question, we'll ask another one. And so don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you feel necessary to get the answer that you want, want about what your experience will be like. And you never really know, of course, but we're looking for some level of predictability in terms of our return on investment and you know, what sorts of resources are you going to get for supporting you along that journey and how does that fit with your life? And so just say those are things that I would definitely encourage people to do. Do a lot more planning than I did. I think in some of my educational journey, a lot more investigation, I think that pays off a great deal. So don't have analysis paralysis as they say. Don't wait forever in order to make your decision because there's always going to be challenges and always going to be some issues. Issue is associated with any degree or education or any other thing that you do in life.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:32:17]: That's imperfect. But do your due diligence beforehand and doing a proper investigation and figure out what suits you as best as you can and what you're trying to get at, what's your purpose in your education? So I think that that's a key element why exactly you're going back to school, what do you want? And then you know, you talk about those things with the people that can help you along the way. Because if you're trying to get a promotion at your current job, you're trying to switch your careers, most of the people that are supporting you are not calling up your boss or you know, they're not trying to out your plans, but they can help you and say, okay, well focus on these things that can get you where you want to be and everybody's here to help you. And that's the point of a lot of this education is we're here to help. And I guess I don't realize that sometimes when I went through my education is that you think it's just very one way street. But a lot of people are there to help you and interactions that you have with them is very beneficial.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:03]: Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your own journey and for helping others to be able to maneuver through their journey through what you've experienced. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:33:14]: Thank you so much for having me and I wish everyone who is listening the best in their own educational journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

In the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Roy Shavers, an Academic Success Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint, for an inspiring conversation about the transformational journey of graduate education. This episode is packed with relatable advice, honest reflections, and the kind of encouragement every current and prospective grad student needs to hear.

The Power of Mindset and Determination

A core theme throughout the episode is the importance of mindset. Roy Shavers speaks candidly about being a first-generation college student and not growing up seeing college degrees on the wall. Despite academic challenges in his early years and a less-than-stellar ACT score, he was determined not to give up. His athletic background taught him to view every obstacle as something to overcome, treating academics like a competition he was determined to win. This athlete mentality—balancing, persevering, and pushing through adversity—became his blueprint for success in and out of the classroom.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Imposter syndrome is real, as discussed by Dr. Christopher Lewis at 07:10. Roy Shavers admits to feeling intimidated, especially when surrounded by master's and doctoral students early in his grad school journey. His way of overcoming these feelings? Embracing the challenge, believing in himself, and leaning into the skills that made him successful as a student athlete—perseverance, focus, and the relentless pursuit of personal growth. His story is a valuable reminder that self-doubt is natural, but it can be beaten with the right mindset and support.

Mentorship, Balance, and Lifelong Learning

Another theme from Roy Shavers's journey is the value of mentorship and networking. He credits supportive professors and mentors who pushed him to believe in himself and helped him navigate graduate school transitions. He also encourages listeners to reach out, ask questions, and not hesitate to contact the authors of interesting articles for real-world insights and career networking (19:55).

Balancing school, work, and life responsibilities is tough, but, as Roy Shavers shares (20:36), drawing from past experiences and making time for self-organization can make the impossible possible.

Advice for Future Victors

If you're thinking about graduate school, Roy Shavers suggests finding a mentor, having patience, setting a plan, and staying resilient. Remember, everyone's path is different, and sometimes the best advice comes from those who've overcome the challenges themselves.

Tune in to this episode to hear Roy Shavers's full journey—including how persistence, the right support system, and a lifelong love of learning can make you a victor in grad school. Listen now and take your first step towards becoming the person you want to be!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, I love that you show up every week to be able to learn just a little bit more and to be able to push yourself and help yourself, to be able to work toward those goals that you've set for yourself that are helping you to be able to be the person you want to become. And that's all about you going to graduate school. This podcast is here to help you along this journey. I call it a journey because it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: Every individual that goes on to graduate school goes on a personal journey themselves that are helping them to. To be able to attain the goals that they've set and are pushing themselves forward. So every week, I love that you show up to be able to learn something just a little bit more, that are going to put some tools in your toolbox and help you to be able to do just that. Every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you that can give you some hints, some tips, some things that they've learned along the way, whether good or maybe not so good, that they can help you to be able to maneuver through that journey just a little bit better. And today we got another great guest. Roy Shavers is with us, and Roy is an academic success specialist at the University of Michigan, Flint. I work with him closely in a number of different ways at the university, and he's had his own graduate school journey, and he's actually still working in a graduate school journey. We're going to be talking about that journey that he's been on and some of the things that he's learned along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Roy, thanks so much for being here today.

Roy Shavers [00:01:56]: Appreciate it. Glad to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:59]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. And, you know, I always start these conversations with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. And I want to go back because I know you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University, and as you were going through that experience for yourself, there was a point in time, there was an instance that made you say to yourself, I'm not done. I want to continue and I want to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point. And what was Going through your head.

Roy Shavers [00:02:28]: Well, I knew I was going to college, but I didn't grow up seeing degrees on the wall. I talk about this all the time to a lot of the people that I come close to. But my parents, I'm a first gen college student. My parents didn't graduate from a college. My mom went to cosmetology school. My dad was drove public transportation. So my big thing was I wanted to compete on the Division 1 level. Back then I thought I was a basketball player, but my calling was track and field.

Roy Shavers [00:03:01]: That's how I got to Eastern Michigan, was through track and field. I reassured it my first year because of grades. Grades and ACT score. My ACT score wasn't that strong. It was, it was pretty bad. But I didn't give up. I had this mentality that I knew that I was going to college. But like I said, I reassured my first year.

Roy Shavers [00:03:21]: That put me in a place where I gained a year back. So I graduated within the four years. And my academic advisor at the time was like, what are you going to do? Are you going to go get a second bachelor's or you going to go to grad school? And the young lady that I was dating at the time, I was telling her, I'm going to go get a second bachelor's. You know, like, I, I don't want no graduate degree. And she was telling me like, Roy, that wouldn't make sense. Challenge yourself, put something in front of you that you can, you know, look forward to. So I don't know, I sat back and I thought about it and I said, what's the coolest job that I didn't see somebody doing on a college campus? And they, I thought an academic advisor. I'm like, they talk to students not just about classes, but just about life.

Roy Shavers [00:04:06]: I can think back to the guy that was my advisor at the time. And I just talked recently talked to him about a couple of months ago. We talked about everything, current events and all of that stuff. And when she asked me what I wanted to do, my other advisor, I said, I'm going for student affairs, you know, higher education. So I pursued a degree in educational leadership with a student affairs focus. And originally my goal was to work with student athletes. I wanted to work with student athletes. But it started off good.

Roy Shavers [00:04:37]: But I got pulled into the student affairs, the higher education enrollment management part of higher education. So this is where I'm at. You know, I've been doing this for the last 10 years working on a college campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: And you decided to go to Eastern Michigan University for your master's degree. And you. There are a number of different higher education programs that are out there. Bring me into your mindset of choosing a graduate program for yourself, especially for that first one. I know you've gone beyond that, and we'll talk about that. That too. But for the master's degree that you got, what made you decide that Eastern Michigan University was the right fit for you?

Roy Shavers [00:05:16]: Well, I was a student athlete. I went there for my undergrad, and I had to pick whether it's a second bachelor's because I graduated, or I had to pick a graduate degree program. And the advisors there at the time, they made their job seem so cool. So that's why I picked student affairs. Higher education, Educational leadership. Student affairs. That was my focus because I, you know, I wanted to do something that fun on the college campus. I thought being an advisor was fun or running some type of program would.

Roy Shavers [00:05:47]: Would, you know, I could see myself doing. So that's when I picked that program. Now, when I got into the program, I don't know if I'm going a little bit deep, but when I got actually into the program, I was, like, scared, because it wasn't just students that was working on a master's. It was students that was working on PhDs that I was. That I was in, you know, classes with. They had to take the same classes that I had to get to get to their goal, you know, which is earning a doctoral degree. So I don't know, being in all some of those classes, I was intimidated because it was like, can't write on this level. I can't.

Roy Shavers [00:06:24]: I never even saw myself even being in that space. But I knew, like I said, the mindset that I had once I got to college, oh, I was determined to not give up, and I was gonna pass. Everything that was put in in front of me, I was passing. So that was the mentality that I had. You know, when I started that program at. It was times that I wanted to give up. And it was professors that came into my life that wouldn't let me give up. Like, one of them was Dr.

Roy Shavers [00:06:50]: Zamani Gallagher, who always was positive with me, you know, always told me the reason I make. Kept it in my mind the goal. What's the end goal, Roy? And then Another lady was Dr. Tack. She had pushed me when it came to writing. So, I don't know, I built. They helped me build my confidence. When I first started that program, you

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:10]: know, that empowerment imposter syndrome is real, and it's something that every student I think is challenged by as they go through. And as a first generation graduate student, that's definitely something that you don't have other people to turn to outside of people that you meet on campus that might already have a graduate degree, like you said, that are pushing you in different ways. Talk to me about that imposter syndrome. What did you have to do to specifically push yourself past that and get to a point where you were confident in your own abilities to be able to be successful in that journey?

Roy Shavers [00:07:40]: I more so just believed in myself, but I, I always looked at every opportunity as is. I looked at it as sports. I don't know, I put that mindset in. It was like I'm competing with myself, but I'm competing with my peers. These people in these classes, you know, that I'm, I'm going to, you know, like I'm learning from them just like they learning from me. But I knew, like I said in the back of my mind, if I quit, I was letting myself down, I was letting my family down. So I don't know, I always had this mindset. Even now today, like it's like going after a doctoral degree.

Roy Shavers [00:08:12]: Nobody in my family, my immediate family, has a degree but me, Me and my oldest sister, we got different dads. But when I look at that, it's like that's what I'm pushing for, is to change the dynamic, change the mindset of the people that's in my family, to show them that education ain't just education. It's not just about learning from a, oh, I can do this for a job. It's about learning from a life standpoint. And that's what I don't know, I look at education is like how much I didn't learnt about just life skills and how I've applied it to my life. So I don't know, man, like I'm proud of myself for the most part, you know, is the work and the effort that I put into grinding and getting to where I want to be. I feel like I'm still not where I, where I really want to be at, but I'm pushing towards those goals. I don't know, this is something that I always told myself that going after a doctoral degree was Years ago my 20s, I'm 42, I just had a birthday, but I told myself that this in my 20s, like this is a goal, you know, I might not go for it right after the first Masters, but I'm pursuing and I don't know, this is just where I am and how Confident that I see myself.

Roy Shavers [00:09:19]: You know, once I start some, I always have to finish it. I'm never not going to finish what I put my mind to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:26]: And as you've been talking about the fact that you're going to be working on a doctorate degree very soon, you're, you're moving into that program. But the first step that you took was to get a specialist degree, an education specialist degree. And I guess bring me to that point. What made you decide that a specialist degree was what you wanted to do next and which is now leading you into the edd?

Roy Shavers [00:09:47]: I know working here we got perks and benefits of working on a college campus. I think some of us don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement on a college campus. But I know that was one of the things in my mind was like, Roy, you don't work on three different campuses and you haven't taken advantage of the tuition reimbursement. But I don't know, when I started here, it was a goal was to go back to school, which was almost three years ago. I told myself that I wanted to go back to school, to work, to pursue a doctoral degree. When I got here, I talked to a couple of different colleagues and they talked about the specialist. It was centered on K through 12, K through 12 administration. And they were like, it's not fit for people that work in higher ed.

Roy Shavers [00:10:30]: And I used to always say, well, how isn't it? You know, we work with, we work in education, and if it's K through 12, kids that we do get are coming from they 12th grader, they still learning, you know, I don't know. And I challenged myself. I was like, I can really make this work because I'm working with these same kids, you know, like these same students, they're going to, at some point they're going to reach me if they plan on coming to college. So I just started tying that to, okay, what I do every day. You know, I talk to students, talk to students about their goals and I talk to students about life things. So I just started tying that to what I do and how I could see the transition from K12 to higher ed. And as far as in the middle being that middleman person. So that's how I tie my mindset to going after the specialist.

Roy Shavers [00:11:20]: And I plan to do that within the EDD because it's still centered around K12 education. One of my main focuses right now is, I mentioned it before, is being a first generation college student. I'm working on a first generation College student project where, you know, I'm doing some storytelling. So it's like putting people's stories out here, talking about the things that they do and the things that they learned and being able to share those stories with other first gen or other students to inspire them, you know, like, okay, you the first in your family, you know, that's great. But you know, somebody else can use those stories as an inspiration to help them reach their goal. So I don't know, I just love what I do and I love, I don't know, I love education. You know, we never stop learning as far as what we're doing. So that's why I'm pursuing that is that passion to never stop learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:10]: Every time that you make a transition into a new degree, there is a transition and you have to figure out for yourself what does it mean for me to be able to be successful in this learning environment. Every school is different, every degree is different, the expectations of faculty are different. And you found success. You got through the master's degree, you've gotten through your specialist degree. Now you're moving into a doctorate degree in education. As you think back to your first degree, your second degree, and you think back to those transitions themselves, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into those programs and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experience?

Roy Shavers [00:12:52]: I'm an athlete. I had to put that mindset, I had to really put that mindset in my head is treat this as I'm running the race. I don't want to lose. You know, like, I feel like if I gave up, I lost. So being an athlete, a lot of people got negative things to say about being an athlete, but being an athlete taught me how to be a student. It taught me how to balance my life not just from an athletic standpoint, but being an a student athlete. So being a student first, you know, I had to go to class in order to be eligible. I had to do study hall, I had to work a part time job.

Roy Shavers [00:13:32]: So that mindset is what puts me where I am now. It's like, I want to win, I don't want to lose. So everything that I do it from away, I tie it to work, I tie it to my personal life. I treat it as being an athlete. I'm just trying to win, you know, like I'm, I'm running the race or I'm playing the game, I don't know. I, I joke with students and, and I tell them, I said, today how much you gonna hit, you know, how many points you gonna hit today in, in the game. This is your life. I ain't saying don't treat it like a game, but sometimes we got to play defense.

Roy Shavers [00:14:02]: We might have to block a couple shots, you know, from things that goes on in our life. So I treat it like that, like I try to look at my life in different aspects, like of the things that I've done. So when it comes to education, that's how I'm tying everything to. It is, is okay, I'm playing basketball today. Or you might get five points today and you might get five blocks. But don't fall out the game. You know what I mean? Like, falling out the game is being negative. You may be playing hard, but you looking at things in negative, negative aspect.

Roy Shavers [00:14:33]: And I, I don't, I try not to do that. So I don't know, I just look at everything from being a athlete. I got that athlete mindset where it's like, I want to win, you know, so that's just that mentality that I have is never giving up, you know,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:46]: I appreciate that because I think you do have to keep pushing and you have to not give up. I mean, there's going to be times when things get hard, things get challenging, and you have to push through. I love the mentality of the athlete because I think that while not every person is an athlet, the way to think like that as going into graduate school, definitely, if you can think like that and push yourself like you do as an athlete, you definitely are going to win in the, in the end. So I appreciate you sharing that. Now you mentioned the fact that like, you just finished your educational specialist degree and I can see the parallel specifically with your, with your master's degree. Talk to me about the Ed specialist degree because you said, you talked about the fact that you had to really push yourself and push your faculty to be able to allow for you to be able to find those connections. And I think there's going to be other students out there that may find a program that they feel is a very good fit, but they might get some pushback. And like you had to do, they have to advocate for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: Now that you've finished the ED specialist degree, while it was initially focused on K12 administration, talk to me about how you're utilizing the knowledge that you learned in that degree on a regular basis.

Roy Shavers [00:16:02]: Well, you could use some of the tools that they have, like the my school data. You may be working with a student that comes from a different School district that you may not have any information about. You can go through there and look up, okay, this was what this school was about. They may be high performing in English or they may have been low performing. And those are things like you doing your homework on helping the student. Like things that you can look at. Like other things that you can look at. Like I, it was things that I never even heard of because I never worked working.

Roy Shavers [00:16:34]: I've never stepped foot inside of K12 administration. So that my school data, one of the projects that I did in one class, I was trying to flip it to doing something within the higher ed realm. And the professor was like, no, I'm challenging you to use my school data. I want you to look up, pick a school district and I want you to do some research on the school district looking at the, my step data, you know, some of the, some of the testing things and, and the English levels and the math levels and where they are and compare and contrast and give me your recommendations. I want you to put your leadership hat on as if you were the, the superintendent of this school district. What would you do? What would you do to try to change the environment here, the learning environment. So it was stuff like that that kind of made me be like, dang, I never really looked at it from that angle. And then a lot of the things that they deal with on a daily bas.

Roy Shavers [00:17:33]: Working with young kids, you know, you working with K through 12 is not the higher ed piece. So one of the classes that I really liked was the law class. You know, the law class made you look at some things different because it's like you working with young, young adults, I, I call them young adults, but you're working with teenagers. So the things that they do, like we see all these different things that, that goes on in the school when it comes to cell phones, it comes to things that's happening in that realm. So I had to sit back and say, we just don't. We may make a decision in higher ed one way, but in the K12, you gotta kind of sit back. You can't just make a decision like that because it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of people. You know, it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of students, it jeopardize some of the staff and faculty.

Roy Shavers [00:18:20]: So it was like, you have to know the proper steps to take in order to make the right decisions in that area of education. And I don't know, I just, I enjoy learning some of that stuff because you wouldn't look at it from the K12, you wouldn't look at it in the higher ed side, things that you see on the K12 side. So I don't know. It was a good challenge. Even some of the things that they asked us to do, like article critiques. I did an article critique in one class and we had to present on it. And the professor didn't put me up to reaching out to the person that I did the article critique on. And I, I actually reached out to the person that wrote the article and had a whole conversation, kind of like how we doing on this zoom right now? And I asked them different questions and, and this was a part of my presentation.

Roy Shavers [00:19:08]: I taught myself how to use Adobe on Premiere Pro and I edited an actual video and that was my presentation. I was looking at doing things a little bit different than from the traditional realm where we use PowerPoint presentation. I said I'm gonna create a video and show how I engaged in conversation. And I think grad school is about networking too. So, you know, it gave me a chance to network with a educator that's out here that's doing research on something that, that I myself looking at down the road. So I don't know. Never be afraid if you listen into this podcast, never be afraid to reach out to somebody that you actually read in the article that's that wrote an article. You see something in the references where you didn't looked at something and you see another article.

Roy Shavers [00:19:55]: Reach out to the people if you got questions, you know about it. It's a part of networking, you know, that's part of learning too, you know, so I think they would be happy. The guy was happy to actually sit down and have a conversation with me. So I don't know. I've met another colle that works in higher ed that I know maybe one day I might meet in person at another conference. So I don't know. That's another piece of advice that I could give to somebody that's jumping into the grad school gang. Reach out to some of these people that you reading about, if they still

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: alive in graduate school, can definitely be challenging, especially as you go through looking at balancing things and balancing life. How did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school?

Roy Shavers [00:20:36]: Well, the first semester back it was a little rough because I hadn't been in school for a while and towards the end of the semester a lot of things kind of caught up with me. You have a couple of different papers and some assignments due all at the same time. It kind of brought Me back to being a student athlete where it's like, okay, you balancing multiple things and you capable of doing it. So sometimes I have to slow myself down because is that athlete in me, you know, you just always on the move, but I don't know, it brought back that athlete. Okay, you going to practice after you leave practice, what was you doing where you was going to study or you was going to work? I had to block things off the way that I did when I was 20 years old. You know, I had to bring that side of back to me. So I don't know, it was all balance. Once you learn that balance you good when it comes to that.

Roy Shavers [00:21:27]: But was it tough? Yes, it was tough. You putting a lot of energy into reading, writing, and then having your own personal life. So I don't know, I just had to find my balance when it comes to time management. I feel like a lot of people can give you a lot of advice on how to use your time, but you the only person that can give yourself advice on what are you actually doing. When we talk about procrastination, you know, you know, what you're supposed to be doing when it comes to actually being a student, preparing for the papers, preparing for the test. So I don't know, it just took me back to that, being an athlete. I always talk about being a student athlete. It took me back to that where you can balance multiple things.

Roy Shavers [00:22:09]: You've done it. So I don't know. I always go back to that. That's what's always in my mind.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: As you think back to your graduate school experience, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Roy Shavers [00:22:22]: I can't really say. I mean, everybody's experience is gonna be different. I don't know. What I wish I would have done was stuck with my mindset to go straight through, never stop. I had so much momentum on me when I was 24. I think I got my masters at 23, so 24 in my finishing this in my 20s. I wish I would have finished doctoral degree in my 20s, but you can't predict the future and how you do things with your life. I had a kid and all these different things that happened to me in my 20s, and I'm thankful for those things that happened to me.

Roy Shavers [00:22:56]: That was what mold me into the person that I am. It got me to kind of slow myself down and start finding myself. So with all the things that happened to me, I feel like it molded me. Even with the time frame stopping after the Masters and getting some work experience. You know, I think that was what one of the advisors recommended me to do, was get some work experience before actually jumping into, to another program so that you can apply some of the things that you learned in the program to what you actually doing for work. So I don't know, it took a. Some of the stuff that I learned over the course of the first Masters that was at Eastern, I was able to start applying that over, over the years from, you know, that first advisor job that I had and working with Trio Student Support Services, some of the student development theories that I like, like I could apply those to the things that I was doing within the program. So it was just about taking your time.

Roy Shavers [00:23:54]: Everything will level up to where it's supposed to be at when the time is right. So I always see my, like I said, I always, I've been telling myself like that I could see myself as a director, but right now is not the time. Like I'm still focused on what it is that I want and that's like I'm shooting towards the, you know, doctoral degree. So an opportunity for that to happen will happen at some point. But right now I just, from, from some of the people that I talk to, the mentors that I talk to, they, they tell me, just do the work now, Roy, and it'll show, you know, so that's my main focus right now, is doing the work and letting my work show what I'm capable of for the next opportunity that's put in, in front of me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:37]: And finally, as you think back to your different graduate degrees and the experiences you've had in graduate school, what are some tips other than what you've said already that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Roy Shavers [00:24:51]: You do got to have some type of sense of what it is that you want. It might not happen right right away. If you pursuing a master's in something, at least have some type of plan put in place. You may not have a mentor, but I definitely say get a mentor. The mentor is the number one thing because they can help you along the way to map out things that you can't see for yourself. One of my mentors always told me to. I left Eastern from my first advisor job. He told me that I needed to stay put at the next school that I was at for at least five years because you don't want to be considered a jumper.

Roy Shavers [00:25:26]: Like jumping from school to school, it doesn't look good from a resume standpoint. So that's what I did. I stayed put to show some type of commitment, you know, like I'm committed to actually my job and the work that I do. So it's just about being patient. You know, I think the biggest thing is finding patience within yourself and having a plan for what it is that you want to do. So definitely getting a mentor, somebody that you can talk to, whether it's an advisor, whether it's a supervisor, somebody that can help you along the way to see your vision all the way out. So like a coach, Everybody needs a coach. So that's the biggest thing that I take for grad school.

Roy Shavers [00:26:06]: You know, you may have an idea, or you may say you want to be a social worker, but it may be something else. You may be a counselor. You know, you may take the counselor route instead of going to social work work route. That's what a mentor and a coach is there to help you along the ways to. To guide you down that pathway. So I say that if you thinking about grad school and you're not all the way, sure, ask questions. Get out here and ask questions to somebody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:31]: Well, Roy, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over. You've got a whole nother degree coming, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that plays out and how that helps to mold you and shape you in your next direction. But I really want to say thank you for your time today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Roy Shavers [00:26:51]: I appreciate it. No problem. And hopefully we can talk after I finish the doctorate. We can have this conversation again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:58]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me@FlintGrad OfficeMflint. Eduardo.

Are you considering graduate school but worried about the challenges ahead? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast is a must-listen, offering valuable perspectives for current and aspiring grad students. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, this episode features a candid conversation with Theo Ellis, a double graduate degree holder and dynamic entrepreneur.

Embracing the Graduate School Journey

The episode opens with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing the idea of graduate school as a journey, where everyone—no matter their starting point—can find ways to prepare and succeed. Theo Ellis embodies this ethos, sharing how his love for learning and a pivotal scholarship motivated him to pursue his first master's degree. His second graduate degree was an organic decision, sparked by an advisor's encouragement and the realization he was only a few courses away.

The Reality of Transition and Balance

Transitioning from undergrad to graduate studies was a significant leap for Theo Ellis. He discusses how the depth and quality of work expected at the graduate level required not only discipline but a true understanding of the material. Theo Ellis also gets real about balancing family, work, and academic obligations. His secret? Rigorous organization, staying on top of the syllabus, and never letting deadlines overwhelm him.

The Value of Relationships

A major theme is the importance of building relationships. Theo Ellis credits mentors like Dr. Witt and his peers for guidance, support, and lasting friendship. These connections not only enriched his grad school experience but continue to influence his personal and professional life.

From Classroom to Business Impact

What sets Theo Ellis apart is how he applies classroom knowledge directly to his businesses. He explains how lessons in entrepreneurship, finance, and marketing have empowered him to innovate and expand within the music industry and beyond. The episode is packed with practical examples of using graduate education in real life.

Mindset Shifts and Advice for Aspiring Grads

Reflecting back, Theo Ellis wishes he'd started his academic journey sooner and underscores the mindset shifts essential for graduate success—higher standards, deeper understanding, and unwavering discipline. His advice is clear: don't procrastinate, stay organized, and make the most of your resources.

Listen and Be Inspired

Whether you're thinking about graduate school or already on the path, listen to this inspiring episode of Victors in Grad School. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Theo Ellis deliver both motivation and actionable strategies to help you find success in your own journey.

Ready for more? Listen to the full episode and embark on your own path to becoming a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love that you come back every week to be able to work on achieving the goals that you've set for yourself. I call this a journey because you are on a journey. Every person that is going and thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey. No matter if you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about it, or if you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: No matter where you are in this path, there are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself even better and to help you to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. This podcast was created to be able to help you to find success in in that graduate school journey sooner. And we do that through giving you opportunities to learn from other people every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about graduate school in a little bit different way through the experiences that they had through their graduate school experience. And today we got another great guest. Theo Ellis is with us today. And Theo is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: He has two graduate degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint, and a really excited to have him here to share some of his own journey with you. Theo, thanks so much for being here today.

Theo Ellis [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Luce.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here and I want to turn the clock back in time. So we're going to start by turning the clock back. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, you said, yes, I've got to keep going. I've got to keep moving forward. I know I need more education to be able to do what I want to do. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head?

Theo Ellis [00:02:03]: Well, for me, it was very organic, actually, because through the process of obtaining my undergrad degree, you know, I was genuinely enjoying learning and the growth that I was experiencing in that. And so at one point, I learned about the Maize and Blue Scholar Award and I set that as my goal. Not just to have that accolade, but also because that it does come with the additional funding to be used towards the higher education and the master's degree. And so that's kind of how I started my journey towards the first master's degree. The second one I originally did not have any intention of getting. Honestly, I really didn't until I believe I was talking with an advisor. And the advisor said, well, you know, you only need to take, I think it was six more classes or something like this, and then you'll have the second one. And I said, well, it's only six more classes.

Theo Ellis [00:02:50]: Why not? So that's how that one came.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:52]: Completely understand. And sometimes things organically show up like that for you and there's opportunities that are set in front of you. Usually I ask, how did you choose the University of Michigan Flint for your graduate degrees? But you kind of answered that in the sense that it was organic. And with the additional funding that you got, that seems to have made sense for you to be able to continue on with the same university and to continue on toward getting that first and then that second graduate degree. In every experience, when you transition into a new degree, there's some transition that happens. Going from undergrad to grad. You are going to be taught in different ways, you're going to be challenged in different ways. There's different expectations that faculty have of you as a student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Talk to me about that transition for you and going from undergrad into your graduate work. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into the program to be successful, and what did you have to do as you were going through the program to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Theo Ellis [00:03:55]: Well, the biggest transition that I noticed right off the get go was not just the level and quality of work that's expected of you, but also the depth of it. You know, you go from writing papers that are maybe five pages, something like this, to now we need 10, 12. A lot more sources are required. Again, just a lot more depth and level of understanding of the material is required of you. And that challenge was fun to me. I embraced it. Right. I didn't run from it.

Theo Ellis [00:04:22]: I didn't know, oh my goodness, what am I going to do here? Okay, this is what we got to do today. Let's go do that. And so I really enjoyed the journey itself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:29]: You know, one of the things that I wanted to delve a little bit into with you is balance, because you're a busy guy. And for anyone that has never seen Theo's LinkedIn page, when you look at Theo's LinkedIn page, you have to ask the question, how the heck are you doing everything that you're doing? Because he is involved with about five different businesses and leading the charge on all of these businesses. And he was going to school while he was doing that as well. So I guess I want to know, and I want to, I want to get some of your take on balance, how did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going to graduate school?

Theo Ellis [00:05:08]: It was grueling at times. I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't. There were times it was very challenging. However, the biggest key to all of it is just organization, staying on top. First day of class, you're getting your syllabus. So you already know the plan. You already know, okay, this is due on this day. This is what I got to do this day.

Theo Ellis [00:05:24]: And just approaching it a little bit at a time, not letting it all overwhelming you or waiting until the last minute and then everything's due at once. That's when you run into problems. As long as you stick to your syllabus, if you can stay ahead of it, you know, read ahead in a chapter or two when you get some free time or whatnot. But just staying disciplined and organized was the biggest factor to my success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:44]: One of the other things that I'm always interested in is that as you go through graduate school, there's people that you can relate to, there's people that you can connect with, and there's relationships that you're going to be building along the way. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build with faculty, with peers, and how were they impactful in the graduate school journey that you went on?

Theo Ellis [00:06:06]: First and foremost, one of the first relationships for me that was formed was with faculty. Dr. Witt, he very quickly became mentor for me, helped guide me, and, you know, in the beginning with my undergrad, I wasn't sure if I was going to go on to pursue higher education. At one time, I had even considered attending law school. After this, and through various conversations with Dr. Wipp, he really helped guide the path that I was on and also became a great friend in the process. And then as I continued on higher degrees, he was still there to advise and help. And he helped oversee my research projects.

Theo Ellis [00:06:39]: And he just, anytime I needed something or just someone to talk to or bounce ideas around, he was always there. So very thankful to Dr. Witt. Then on a peer basis, I mean, I have peers in mind that we are still connected to this day. We hang out in the summertime and barbecue and just genuine friendships. There through people that were pursuing their master's degrees as well and had a passion for business as well. And so I'm grateful for those because, you know, they're all wonderful people and I would not have met none of them had I not gone through this process. What I can tell you is this.

Theo Ellis [00:07:08]: When I first started thinking about it, remember I'm a non traditional student. And so coming back to school after many years, when I first started to even consider this for, even for the undergrad, do I really want to go back to school at this age, you know, 40 some, whatever. Do I really, you know, can I, you know, do I, do I have the capacity? I don't know. You know, let's find out. And then do I want to take on the debt? Do I want to take on this debt? Do I really need another bill right now? In the end, what made my decision was this, that's okay. If I were to spend, go get a brand new truck or something, 40, 50,000, maybe $60,000 truck, I would have no problem going, getting that new vehicle, signing the papers and having a new vehicle. So what's the difference if I spend that 40, 50,000 on a degree, something that's going to better me, something that I'll have for the rest of my life, the truck's eventually going to die, this degree won't. And so I said, you know what? If I can take on debt for a new vehicle, I can take on debt to better myself.

Theo Ellis [00:07:58]: And that was what made my decision. And then in the end it worked out that, you know, I was very fortunate that I had minimal debt because of the way that I performed and the opportunities that were presented and the way of merit scholarships or other grants, etc. But I still have debt and going into the master's program, still have debt. You know, I pay my student loans now, but it is all worth it. I don't regret any of it. I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had while I was at U of M Flint and also the education that I gained. I went there seeking a better understanding of business. I had already been running my business prior to that, and I said, I want to level up on my business acumen.

Theo Ellis [00:08:34]: I gained that and then some. So it worked out for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]: I guess one of the questions that I have is, as you have gone through both of these programs, you already mentioned that you run your own business. And I'm going to say businesses, because you do have a number of businesses that you are running. Talk to me about how you are taking what you learned in both of your graduate degrees and using that on a daily basis.

Theo Ellis [00:08:56]: Well, currently I'm working on expanding my business. You know, the core of my business that like that you see on LinkedIn and that ProSound Media, what we do is it's in the music industry. So we help artists companies license their music for tv, film and commercials, distribute their music globally. So you know, get it on Spotify, Apple Music for them. We handle their music publishing which is, you know, on the, on the copyright side again, that's all part of the licensing. So a lot of the administrative stuff, the behind the scenes stuff is what we help artists and labels with. Recently I've been expanding my business with the boom in AI. How can I utilize this for my company? And so what I've done is developed a couple products that artists and businesses can use.

Theo Ellis [00:09:37]: One of them is called Orbit. And what Orbit does is it basically gets eliminates busy work. You know, all of us have busy work. You go away for the weekend, you come to work Monday morning, you may spend two hours cleaning out your email before you actually start to do some work, right? That's busy work. And so I developed AI that'll clean your email out for you and basically bring the important things to the forefront. Kind of like having your own personal assistant there, right? So through the process of developing these different AI platforms that I've been working on, I we got to figure out what's going to be the mvp. You know, that's something I learned at U of M Flint. You know, the entrepreneurial side of it, where's our break even? What's it going to cost to run this thing? You know, at the end of the day, what's going to be the net present value, right? These are the things that I learned at U of M Flint.

Theo Ellis [00:10:21]: These are things that I did not know prior to coming there. And I use them all on a daily basis as I'm learning and figuring out because I have three or four different ones that I'm working on right now. Okay, which one are we going to go with? Which markets are we going to launch them in? Understanding the marketing side of it and the importance of that, right? Because you can have a great idea, but if you're targeting the wrong audience, the not going to matter. And then there is taking all of the knowledge that I learned in business school, coupling that, you know, different frameworks that I've learned, you know, whether it's Porter's forces or the Harvard, the business canvas model, taking those things, applying it to the knowledge I have with the music industry. Okay. And how can I take both of these things and merge them together to help people in the music industry? And what I came up with was the business of music, which literally applies strategy, core business principles, and mixes in the things you need to know, the knowledge you need to know of the music industry because it is its own niche industry and it has its own nuances that are very particular to it that don't exist in other industries. So we came up with the book, and none of that would have been possible, or at least maybe not to the scale that it is if not for the education that I gained at U of M. Flynn, talk to me

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:28]: about a defining moment for you as you were going through that graduate education that might have been, let's say, the turning point, or that defining moment, as I'd mentioned, that shape your academic or professional journey.

Theo Ellis [00:11:40]: That's a very difficult question for me to answer. And the reason being is because I went not not only full time, but full year round. I didn't do fall, winter. I did fall, winter, spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer. I did that for four years straight. And at the end of four years, I had three degrees. So it all just happened so quickly. And then at the end, we're done.

Theo Ellis [00:12:00]: That's it. I mean, I remember when I first, you know, graduated for the last time and I. And I was. I didn't know what to do. I was so used to having an assignment due or something that, you know, what do I do now? I got free time, you know, so. So it's very difficult for me to have a defining moment because I was just so in it and just focused on achieving the goals and getting it done right, that I really didn't even have time to sit back and absorb it until I was finally done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:22]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school

Theo Ellis [00:12:26]: to do it sooner? I had been contemplating going back to school for a few years, you know, and you know, for me it was really Covid was what the turning point was. I said, you know what, it's now or never. And so 21 was the first year that I started back with my undergrad, but definitely wish that somebody would have encouraged me to get involved sooner and get this done sooner. I think I'd have been so much better for it and probably further ahead than I am now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:48]: And I guess as you think about your graduate school experience and you think about the things that you learned in that graduate school experience, what would you say are some mindset shifts that you had to make for yourself to, to find success in graduate school.

Theo Ellis [00:13:04]: The quality of work that's expected. You can sometimes I guess get by if you want in undergrad with how you frame your answers. But that's not going to fly at the graduate level. Like you really have to understand the work. And so that was a mind shift for me, I think that's probably the biggest one is just understanding that the level and quality of work that is expected of you daily, day in and day out. And I mean one of my last classes I took, we had to turn in like 27 page paper. That's a lot, you know, it's a lot. And for it to be cohesive because you can start first three pages, you're writing one thing and you can kind of drift, right? So to keep it all cohesive and make sure that from start to finish you're on that one topic, I mean that's a challenge.

Theo Ellis [00:13:45]: But again, I enjoyed every bit of it and I'm grateful for all my teachers that I had there. Dr. Greg Lawrence, I had the privilege of participating in the study abroad trip to Japan. That was, that was a formative experience. That was life changing, that was amazing. And seeing how they do business over there, learned some good things there as well as just the culture of Japan and for you yourself even, you know, you were instrumental in helping guide me when we launched the Graduate Students of Color Student club. You know, that which did not exist previously and you were very instrumental in that and so I thank you for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now as you look back at your own graduate school experience and you think about the degrees that you got if you were to do it all over again, would you choose the same programs or path and why or why not?

Theo Ellis [00:14:25]: I would change one thing potentially anyway. Potentially change it. I don't know that I 100% would for sure. Business MBA, that's staying right? Like that's not going anywhere. I just have a passion for business, entrepreneurship, I love it. And so that would never change. Potentially for my mslod, maybe instead of doing the joint MBA mslod, I would do the MBA and computer science one just because of where we're at in this day and age with technology and AI and all this, that definitely would be beneficial. I'm writing these AI programs with the limited Python knowledge that I have.

Theo Ellis [00:14:56]: That's been for the most part self taught. But had I had some classes in that, probably have this app done a lot sooner so. But you know, again it's all part of the journey. And you know, that's one of the things also that going to University of Michigan Flint taught me was that really there's not anything that I can't teach myself because a lot of this stuff is online. And so you do have the interaction with the teachers and this and that, but a lot of it you're having to read the book and kind of self taught here and so that doing that and understanding that, yeah, you can do that and actually retain it and understand it. And if you have questions, the teachers are there, etc. But when I got done, I said, man, there's not nothing I can't teach myself. So I'm grateful for that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And then finally, as you think back again on your graduate education and you think of other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for business or some other completely different area, what are some tips that you might others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Theo Ellis [00:15:50]: Well, the first thing is don't put it up, don't think about it, don't waste time. Secondly, stay disciplined, stay focused. Most importantly, stay organized. You know that discipline and that that organization is what helps keep the success, you know, following the syllabus. You know, pay attention to the syllabus. It's not just a piece of paper to ignore. It literally has everything you need to know contained within it. And if you just follow that, you'll get the perfect grade.

Theo Ellis [00:16:12]: Every time it's going to tell you. It gives you the syllabus, in my opinion, gives you the cheat code. Here's what you need to do, Just follow it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:18]: Well, Theo, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best as you are working through the app and all of the other things that you're working on to be able to move forward your businesses and I truly wish you all the best.

Theo Ellis [00:16:33]: Thank you sir. It's been my pleasure. And thank you again for having me. I genuinely appreciate, appreciate the opportunity.

Speaker D [00:16:37]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

Are you contemplating graduate school, currently in the midst of your program, or simply curious about what it takes to thrive in this next phase of education? The Victors in Grad School podcast delivers personal stories, hard-won lessons, and actionable advice from students, alumni, and experts. In the latest episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Micah Helzerman, a master's student in Artificial Intelligence at the University of Michigan-Flint, to discuss the unique journey that is graduate school.

Embracing the Graduate School Journey

A major theme in this episode is the concept of graduate education as a multifaceted journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners, grad school is not just about applying and getting accepted—it's about ongoing growth, self-discovery, and working toward long-term goals. Micah Helzerman shares how his decision to continue beyond his undergraduate degree was fueled both by inspiration from research opportunities and a desire to confront the challenging job market.

Self-Motivation and Building Structure

Transitioning from undergrad to grad school is a leap in both responsibility and independence. Micah Helzerman reveals how graduate coursework is more self-driven and project-based, requiring students to take control of their schedules and motivation. Developing a structured routine, utilizing tools like calendars, and consistently reflecting on goals become keys to success. If you're wondering how to boost your own productivity and avoid burnout, Micah Helzerman's honest insights about finding balance between work, study, and personal life are a must-listen.

Research, Relevance, and Future Goals

Another standout aspect of the episode is the discussion of research. Micah Helzerman's current work focuses on how AI large language models interact with math problems, exploring their impact on education and student learning. He emphasizes the importance of engaging with current research early and often—a valuable tip for anyone planning a path in academia or research-heavy fields.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Choosing the Right Program

Graduate school can be daunting, and feelings of self-doubt are common. Micah Helzerman discusses imposter syndrome and how he works to focus on his unique strengths, rather than comparisons to others (00:14:22). He also stresses the importance of finding a program—and a community—that feels supportive and aligned with your goals.

Are you ready to be inspired, gain clarity, and learn actionable tips from those who've walked the path? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" for honest conversations and real-world advice to help you navigate your graduate journey. Don't miss this episode!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello and welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week. I love that you come back every week to be able to learn, to grow, to work on this journey that you're on. And it is a journey I always, whenever I'm talking to graduate students, I try to impart in every student that I talk to. That graduate school is not one thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Right? It's not going to be, you know, just applying. It's not just, you know, getting in. It's it. I mean, there is a whole journey that goes along with this. From the moment you figure out in your head that you say, yes, I want to do this, to the moment that you apply, to the moment you get accepted, to the moment that you're going through that, that program and you're looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're working toward the goals that you set for yourself. You're on a journey that you can start working on today. And that's why this show exists. This show exists to be able to help you and provide you with some, some.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: Some ideas, some thoughts, some for. Some perspectives and for. And it offers you an opportunity to learn from others that have gone before you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences to be able to provide you with an. To learn from them in the journey that they've been on. And today we got another great guest. Micah Helzerman is with us today. And Micah is a master's student in the Artificial Intelligence program at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experiences in the journey that he's been on and for him to share that with us. Micah, thanks so much for being here today.

Micah Helzerman [00:02:02]: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I guess I want to turn the clock back a few years because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and you got a bachelor's degree in computer science. And at some point, at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You said, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on. And you decided, I'm going to go on this, this path, this journey toward graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that graduate school was right for you at that time?

Micah Helzerman [00:02:36]: Yeah, I would have to say, to be honest, it was actually late in my senior year when I realized that I wanted to go back and complete my master's degree. I was a bit intimidated by the job market. I had heard from other peers who'd graduated before me that it was getting quite difficult to get jobs in computer science, at least compared to like five, 10 years prior. And this was about six months before agentic AI was becoming the new thing. We have things like Copilot or Quad code that can do much of the work that young software developers are doing upon graduation. And so a lot of the roles are either being filled by like senior developers or AI. And that kind of intimidated me. But another reason why I wanted to go back and get a master's was I began doing research my senior year as well.

Micah Helzerman [00:03:27]: I had two really great faculty that I did research with. The first one was Dr. Mayhem. It was my first year up project and I learned about it through the course I was taking with them. And in the second semester of my senior year, I began a UROP project with Dr. Wilson, who is my current research advisor. I was actually talking about an idea I had with another professor. And thankfully that professor was able to get us both in contact with each other so that we could work on research together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:57]: Now, I know you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you were in your, your graduate, you were in your senior year. You made that decision. You wanted to continue on to graduate school. Now you decided to stay at the University of Michigan Flint, go into a newer program in artificial intelligence. There are other artificial intelligence programs out there. And I guess bring me to that decision making process for yourself. And what made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you at that time?

Micah Helzerman [00:04:32]: Yeah, I knew a lot of reasons this was the right place for me. For one, I did want to stay close to home with my family. And the University of Michigan Flint kind of feels like a second home to me at this point. I remember even like elementary school, high school, I went on different field trips to the campus. My two older siblings, they completed their undergraduate degree two years and three years before I completed mine. And I just knew I wanted to come back here. Also, I knew many of the faculty who I would be taking courses with. I've even taken courses with my research advisor.

Micah Helzerman [00:05:04]: And so I knew I Have these strong relations with these faculty members, the strong connection to Flint, to the university. I wanted to continue pursuing my education here because I knew great things would come from it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: So going from being an undergraduate student to a graduate student is a transition. There are different expectations, different ways of thinking, different perspectives that you have to be able to bring into what you're learning inside and outside the classroom. And in those transitions, I know that there are things that you have to do to be able to prepare yourself, but also to be able to make that transition well. So talk to me about as you transitioned into that graduate program, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the entire graduate school journey that you've been on?

Micah Helzerman [00:05:56]: Yeah, I would say the biggest difference between undergrad and grad school is everything feels a lot more self motivated. So that comes to like doing coursework, also like doing my research, everything is self motivated. The courses are mostly project based. And in the master's, which was separate from my undergrad, there were some project courses in my undergrad, but it was mostly like attending lectures and doing homework assignments. Whereas in my grad program so far I think all of my classes have had semester long projects where you continuously build on them. I think one reason why that is the case is because many of the students who are pursuing the master's in AI program, they come from different backgrounds. So a lot of them actually don't come from computing backgrounds. And so having the courses be more project based helps them use their different skills from their different backgrounds that they come from.

Micah Helzerman [00:06:48]: And yeah, so putting like the self motivation is like really key. I've had to get a more rigorous schedule compared to undergrad. I felt like undergrad I was mostly just not winging it, but just I was just barely getting by, I would say. And that wasn't satisfactory for me to achieve my goals in grad school. So I have gotten more rigorous schedule. I've started doing regular exercise and trying to find like a good work. Life balance is very important. A lot of grad students and different programs.

Micah Helzerman [00:07:17]: Mental health is more important I would say in grad school. And it kind of ties into this self motivation where if you want to get the most out of grad school, you have to put in a lot of time which, which does take like a lot of energy, a lot of effort and finding the correct balance. It does take some time to adjust compared to undergrad school and something I'm still figuring out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: I would say, so talk to me about that balance. Because you said that it's really important to find that balance and you're still working on it yourself. So talk to me about currently, how have you found that balance of school, work, family, personal responsibilities while in graduate school? What have you done to get yourself to where you are today and what do you feel like you still need to do to be able to find that ultimate balance for yourself?

Micah Helzerman [00:07:59]: Yeah, I would, I would say the one thing I did is I started using Google Calendar and like putting all my events, everything I want to do in there. I'll like take notes of what I want to do each day, each week. Kind of like keep reviewing what I need to be doing, see where I'm at, what I need to do to get to where I want to be. And yeah, like I mentioned, making sure I get the exercise I need each week, making sure I see my friends, I do things with them, and then also spending time with my family, just making sure that I'm not overworking myself. Because I am a person who would sit down and start working on something and keep working on it six hours later and not realize it's 3am and that I have to go back to sleep. So like setting like reminders, calendars, taking notes on myself, how I'm feeling each day, I found has helped a lot. And to to continue improving, I would say each semester is different. You know, you take different courses, different schedule.

Micah Helzerman [00:08:54]: So schedules do change. So one thing I can do to improve is to keep getting better at adapting to different schedules.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:01]: Talk to me about the research that you're working on. I know that you said that you've been working on a research project with a faculty member at the university. And research is definitely one thing that is unique when you go to graduate school, that you have an opportunity to be able to delve deeper into something that not only you become passionate about, but others are passionate about as well. And that can offer you some different perspective on the learning that happen that's happening inside and outside the classroom. So talk to me about that. What is that research allowed for you to do and what has it allowed for you to learn as you're going through and preparing for your future?

Micah Helzerman [00:09:40]: Yeah, so my current research project is basically studying how large language models interact with math problems at varying difficulty levels. This came from a lot of different motivations. During my undergrad, I did two years of math tutoring and I noticed a lot of the students were using AI. They're using ChatGPT or Gemini to help them study for math. And a lot of, a lot of that can be very useful if it's used correctly. But I noticed it's not really well known how well AI can help assist students learning math. You know, is it just doing their homework for them or is it actually helping to enhance their learning experience outside the classroom? And so that was something I wanted to explore with Dr. Wilson.

Micah Helzerman [00:10:24]: So I began learning about large language models, how they work, and studying various papers on large language models solving math questions. And so my work led to a. My first paper, which was recently accepted to acl, which I will present in San Diego in July, which I'm excited for. And it kind of built on my background of math, basically that I wanted to understand how large language models are doing these math questions. And I also want to make sure AI is being used in a way that is helping students and not harming them. We've seen a lot of different papers, a lot of like, news headlines even about how generative AI can lead to this taking away of learning experience by just doing all the work for students and not letting them learn. And that's something I want to help overcome for future students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: Now you've got about a year left in your program to be able to finish off your master's degree. And as you look into the future and you look at where you are today and where you want to be at the end of the program, talk to me about what are you planning for the next year and what are you hoping to be able to take out of this, which will lead you toward the future that you want.

Micah Helzerman [00:11:36]: Yeah, so my second year, I'm actually going to begin the Master's thesis. I hope to continue doing my research and build it into a full thesis. And I guess my goal of that is just to continue building on my research, make it better. And I do hope to apply to a PhD program in the future. Not sure where it will be. I need to do my homework on that. But I do know the University of Michigan Flint, they do have a PhD program. Two of my lab mates are actually part of it.

Micah Helzerman [00:12:06]: And it seems like a very successful program. And I might consider reapplying to the University of Michigan Flint for that once I complete my Master's. I am also taking some other user experience classes with Dr. Ann Jonas, which I am going to be excited for because much of my research so far has been more quantitative and just studying large language models, not really studying the human side. And I do want to do some more research on the human side to Get a better understanding of how people are interacting with these large language model systems and how we can improve their experience with using them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: As you think back to your graduate school experience thus far, what's some something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school?

Micah Helzerman [00:12:49]: I think the one thing I wish I did more during my undergrad was reading research papers because it is something that is so important in grad school, at least as someone who is doing research, although it is also important for the grad level courses. So like a lot of the courses there is quite a bit of overlap with what like the current research is looking at, especially in AI. And so having this higher understanding of how AI large language models work from reading research papers would have helped me even more with understanding the curriculum, understanding what I can do, and it really would have helped propel my class projects even further. A lot of these class projects I've seen other students do, they can really basically turn into little startups. They put a lot of time and energy into it and the tools and programs that they create is very like beneficial to many people and it could lead to startups. And if that was something I had known, I probably would have like better prepared myself in undergrad to be able to get the full value out of my grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Sometimes I hear from graduate students that they have gone as they go through graduate school, that they hit that proverbial wall of not feeling like they belong, that they are an imposter in some ways, that they face that imposter syndrome that people talk about or sometimes have self doubt as they're going through graduate itself. Talk to me about that for yourself and how you may have had to deal with that for yourself.

Micah Helzerman [00:14:22]: Yeah, imposter syndrome is definitely a big issue in graduate school and ties back into the mental health of grad students. I, I've personally haven't dealt with it very much, but sometimes in class I do feel like I feel different from the other students. Like some of them are older, like returning after many years in industry, which it does feel like they have a lot more skills than I do, that I should have learned more in my undergrad or I should have gotten my master's degree later. But to try and overcome that, I realized my strengths. I realized how much tutoring I've done, how much research I've done during my senior year undergrad, trying to like realize my skills and building on my skills when I can in order to, from my perspective, put myself in a position similar to the other master's students. So that I feel like I fit in. But I guess not comparing myself to others is also very important because we are all different people. We all have different backgrounds, different skills, different gaps between our skills.

Micah Helzerman [00:15:21]: And yeah, just focusing on yourself, proving one day at a time, one week at a time, is very important to find success in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:30]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate education thus far, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education beyond what you've already said that would help them find success sooner?

Micah Helzerman [00:15:41]: Yeah, other than finding the correct balance, I guess, making sure you're at the right grad school. So, like, I. I decided I want to go to University of Michigan Flint because I have this strong connection with the faculty. It's close to home, but I know that's not the case for everyone, especially for international students. So going out online, going out on social media, for example, seeing which universities have a really strong social media presence, finding different clubs and organizations that you would feel like you belong to, those are impactful, I would say, in maintaining success. Because in order to be successful in grad school, you do need a strong support system. And I think a lot of that does come from the university you're attending. So I think doing your research, doing your homework on which schools, which programs you want to apply to, will be very key to finding success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over and you've got definitely more things that you're going to be learning over the next year, but I am really excited to be able to see where this year takes you. And I appreciate you spending some time with us today to share what you've learned thus far. And I wish you all the best.

Micah Helzerman [00:16:51]: Yes, thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:52]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Are you contemplating graduate school or facing doubts about the next step on your academic journey? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School #podcast is a must-listen for anyone craving a candid, inspiring, and deeply personal look at what it really takes to find success in higher education and beyond.

In this episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dee Schwalm, a three-time University of Michigan-Flint graduate, whose journey exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and dedication. Her story isn't one of a straight line to success but rather a curvy, non-traditional path filled with pivotal moments and conscious choices.

Key Themes

1. The Value of a Nonlinear Journey

Dee Schwalm opens up about her beginnings as a first-generation college student who hadn't always planned on higher education. Her candid recount of starting at community college, dropping out, and finding her calling after an injury in physical therapy reminds us that success stories often start from moments of uncertainty and unexpected experiences.

2. Embracing Change and Lifelong Learning

Not content to rest after earning her Doctorate in Physical Therapy, Dee Schwalm returned to the classroom—14 years later—to become a Physician Assistant. Her drive stemmed from a desire to help fill the urgent healthcare gap and her own curiosity about the medical side of patient care. Her advice: it's never too late to make a change if you feel called to something new.

3. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Both Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dee Schwalm discuss the very real feeling of imposter syndrome that plagues many graduate students. Dee Schwalm shares powerful strategies for tackling self-doubt—suggesting that confronting what triggers these feelings can help you learn and grow.

4. Balancing Family and Ambition

For listeners juggling parenthood and academia, this episode is a goldmine of wisdom. Dee Schwalm details how she structured her time, involved her daughters in her educational journey, and used "failures" as teachable moments for her family. Her pragmatic tips on scheduling, grace, and perseverance apply to anyone feeling stretched between multiple commitments.

Tune In for Inspiration

Whether you're a prospective grad student, a parent returning to school, or anyone doubting your own path, this episode offers a heartfelt dose of encouragement. Dee Schwalm's journey reminds us all: it's not where you start, but how you keep showing up, adapting, and pushing forward that truly counts.

Listen to "Victors in Grad School" and let Dee's story ignite your own next step!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you show up, you're coming back, you're here to learn, and to be able to take that next step, that next step in your journey toward graduate school. And I say it's a journey because it really is a journey. Every person, every person that's either thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey, a journey of learning, a journey of discovery.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: There is a lot of things you're going to be going through, learning, growing, and becoming a different person throughout that experience. That's why this show exists. This show is here to help you on that journey, to help you to find success in the graduate school journey that you're on. No matter if you're a going to physical therapy school, physician assistant school, business school, law school, doesn't matter. There are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself for this journey, to help yourself during the journey and beyond. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective, give you some perspective on what this journey holds for you, but also some things that you might be wanting to think about, some things you might be able to put into play as you're going through this experience. And today we got another great guest. Dee Schwalm is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: And Dee is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. She actually has three degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint. And we'll talk about that journey of going from an undergraduate student there to getting a degree in physical therapy. But that wasn't enough. She then came back after about 14 years and to become a physician assistant and just graduated from the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint as well. So we're going to talk about that journey that she's been been on, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to Hugh. Dee, thanks so much for being here today.

Dee Schwalm [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me. This is exciting. I was honored to be asked. So this is really exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I guess I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock Back I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, that, that journey of getting that Bachelor of Science degree in human biology, you made a decision, you made a decision to go to, to get a doctorate in physical therapy. Bring me back to that moment where you said to yourself, yep, this is the reason, this is what I'm doing. And what was going through your head.

Dee Schwalm [00:02:46]: Yeah. So my path has been very curvy and not very traditional. I will say that 100%. I'm going to rewind a little bit. So in high school, I was never the person, I'm a first generation college graduate. I was never the person who definitely planned to go to college. My parents didn't really talk about it. We didn't go visit colleges and do the traditional, traditional things.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:09]: They wanted me to have a respectable job that I would be able to take care of myself. So that was important. College wasn't out of the question, but it certainly wasn't something I had to do, which I apparently love to do because I keep going back to college. But so I started after high school. I didn't know if I was going to go. And I got the MEEP Michigan Merit Award Scholarship. And this one counselor at Swartz Creek really encouraged me. I remember her chasing me down the hall and was like, deanne, Deanne, you got the scholarship, you have to go to college.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:37]: And I thought, man, this 2,500 doll dollars, which was like a million dollars in 1999. So she said, you can use it for college. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go to Mott College. That's close by. So I went and checked it out. And then my parents went and they checked it out. They thought it was good. And I started in psychology and then I moved to graphic design.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:56]: And I was sitting in a room with a computer alone all the time. And that's when I realized I need something with people like, this isn't going to work for me. I can't just be locked away. So I ended up dropping out of school because I was paying for it myself. I was waitressing, I had an apartment. I dropped out of school and it was like maybe two semesters. I ended up hurting my knee one day while I was on a run, end up in physical therapy. And it was probably the fourth or fifth visit of pt and I was looking at this PT buzzing around the room teaching people about science, which happened to be my favorite subject.

Dee Schwalm [00:04:27]: She was positive she was uplifting, she was busy. There was exercise. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm in love. I have to do this. I have to become a physical therapist. So the next week I figured out, how am I going to transfer classes to U of M Flint. I went and checked it out. I'll say for sure.

Dee Schwalm [00:04:44]: The counselors were really inviting and made me feel comfortable at U of M Flint because to me, that felt like a huge campus. I wasn't somebody who was used to that. So I started at U of M Flint, got my degree in human biology and just chased down the dream. I got a list from the counselor and the advisors, what do I need to get into the DPT program? And it was a week by week. How am I getting closer to that? How am I getting closer to that? And I applied at U of M. Flint only, which I know in hindsight sounds insane, but that's where I was going to go. That's what it. I just knew.

Dee Schwalm [00:05:17]: I just knew that's what it was going to happen. So I ended up in the PT program and it was wonderful. It's been a wonderful career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:24]: You went through this graduate school experience and you about 14 years later decided that you weren't done. And many people at the end of a physical therapy degree would say, I'm good, I'm going to do my career. I'm going to stay doing this for the career because it is a terminal degree. But you said, nope, I want to do something different or I want to add on to the degree. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide that you needed to flip the strip?

Dee Schwalm [00:05:54]: It definitely was not something that happened initially. When graduating as a pt, I loved working. I still work as a pt. I work prn. I loved it. I was working in outpatient. I worked in sports med. I worked on the weekends to pay off student loans at nursing homes and subacute rehab.

Dee Schwalm [00:06:11]: I mean, I worked, I loved it. I love the career. I mean, where else can you have a career where you enter someone, you enter the room with someone and they trust you? You might be their last resort. They're trusting you to not only make a plan of care with them, try to figure out their goals, what they're trying to get back to, but also trust you to physically carry them, if they fall, move them across the room. I mean, it's a very reward starting career. I would say the transition to PA happened as maybe in the last five years, six years working with PAs, and I was very interested in what they did. I was very interested in the medicine side of it. And I was working at a subacute rehab with patients that were COVID positive.

Dee Schwalm [00:06:54]: You know, they had multiple traumas, a motor vehicle accident, different things. And I remember hearing Amy York from PT school, which I have heard her say this over and over. You know, by the year 2030, there's expected to be over 80 million people in the United States over the age of 65. And over the last 14 years, I've heard her give this stat in my head over and over. And it's been like kind of a countdown, like, oh, we're getting closer to 2030. There's all these people that are going to need more health care. Are we ready? Are we ready? And then kind of circling back, going, working in the subacute and with the patients and just seeing that we needed more physicians and clinicians in Michigan. Currently we're 800 clinicians short in Michigan and also approaching this number where we're going to have more baby boomers reaching this age.

Dee Schwalm [00:07:40]: I was like, who's going to do this? Who's going to be the family medicine doctors? Oh, man. Well, it's not me because I took my science courses seven plus years ago. They imploded. You can't use them again after seven years. I can't go back to college. Not for me. I wonder who will do that. And I kind of tossed it around in my head and I felt pulled to be a pa.

Dee Schwalm [00:07:59]: I wondered, you know, maybe I should do that. And I told my husband about it one night and he was like, look it up. You should do that. Look it up. And I was like, oh, I felt foolish looking it up. And I looked of course at the U of M. Flint website because that's where I go to college. Okay.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:13]: Didn't look at any other websites. I know I'm a loyalist. I looked it up and I. I will never forget seeing the seven year science course waiver. When I saw that, I was like, oh, there's a spot for me. It's like emotional. But I saw that and I was like, wow, there's a spot for me. So I just chased it.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:28]: It was like that moment on two weeks later, I was taking the only class I needed, which was M Biology. I took it at Mott, which when I walked in, the teacher was like, are you here to audit my class? Like, no, I'm just a student. I'm just old sir. So I went back to Mott two days a week. Was still working as a pt. I was getting my microbiology class out of the way. And I was going to apply to PA School. My boss and PT everybody encouraged me.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:50]: They said, do it. They gave me the time off. Everybody thought it was great. I applied. I wrote my entire. Looking back, this is kind of. Kind of wild. But the Caspa.

Dee Schwalm [00:09:00]: I wrote the entire thing with U of M Flint written in it because it knew it was the only place I was going to apply. I would not give that advice to a student. But that is my path. And I just chased it down. And before I knew it, here I am, and it's over. Like that. Like a fever dream just went by. Gone.

Dee Schwalm [00:09:16]: I guess that sums it up. I don't know. Does that make any sense?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: It does. And, you know, one of the things that I think is interesting is that I think what you say, what you're saying here is that you can go into a career and think it's the perfect one for you, but then as life continues, you continue to be inspired, you continue to be intrigued, and you see other ways in which you can impact the world. Now, you pushed yourself. Not everybody would do that. And you pushed yourself to take that leap. And I applaud you for that. Because I think, like I said, not everybody would do that. Sometimes we get complacent, and we're like, we're okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:53]: I'm good. But you kind of said to yourself, I want to be better, and I want to impact the world in a different way. And I applaud you for that.

Dee Schwalm [00:10:00]: Through this process, I've had some people ask me, and I just really want to, like, make sure I clarify it while I'm here. Well, oh, you left PT because you didn't like it, or it wasn't a good job or you couldn't find a job. You can find a job in PT. You can find a job in 15 minutes in PT. I mean, they are needing people. I felt kind of bad leaving the world of PT because that's needed, too. It's an excellent career. It's a rewarding job.

Dee Schwalm [00:10:22]: There's a. A lot of versatility. I just felt like it was kind of hard to come to terms with, but I was like, no, I'm not turning my back on pt. I'm not leaving pt. I'm taking it with me. I'm going to use everything I learned as a PT still and help patients. So I just really felt like it was important because some people, I think, along the way were confused, like, oh, you'd rather be a pa? I'm like, no, I'm also a pa. And both things so that's really exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: Now, one of the things that I think that I'm interested in asking about is this, is that every time that you transition into a new type of education, there's new expectations, there's new ways of learning. And you went from your undergraduate degree into physical therapy. That's one transition where you have to make that transition from being an undergraduate student to a physical therapy student. And then, as I said, you go, you work. Fourteen years later, you're transitioning back to school and being educated in another new way into becoming a physician assistant. So talk to me about in those transitions, those transitions from your Bachelor's to pt, from PT to work and then back to pa, what are some of the things that you had to do at the beginning to set yourself up for success? And what are some of the things that you had to do throughout the entire journey to maintain that success, throughout the entire experience?

Dee Schwalm [00:11:45]: I would say when you are leaving undergrad and entering a graduate program, there are portions of undergrad that can be rogue memorization. You can, in a way, from high school and some of undergrad, be trained and memorize, regurgitate the information and repeat. And I realized once I got into the PT program, I was a good student in undergrad, I got good grades, you know, But I realized now, oh, I'm in a graduate program. It's about understanding the information on a 360 degree axis. You have to know everything about this information. There is no more memorization. It's dancing with this information, becoming familiar with it, and also being able to teach it to someone else to ensure that you actually understand the information. So that was something I learned going into graduate school the first time.

Dee Schwalm [00:12:39]: I also learned that, you know, a graduate program, the DPT program, it's consuming. Don't make plans, okay? You're going to be busy. You are busy from the very beginning to the very end. And I think I was kind of ready for that in my mindset going back to school. I mean, there was some things that were different in PT school. Get your Scantron and take your test now. Everything's on the computer. I don't use social media.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:03]: I have a LinkedIn finally. You know, I haven't used social media since 2012. I just kind of stepped away from it. So I was behind. I didn't know how to navigate these new learning platforms. And I just totally was honest and told other students, I have no idea how to do this. Would one of you be willing to help me? I will buy you lunch. I will do Anything, I'll stay after.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:25]: And Rachel Bauer took me under her wing and taught me how to use my computer. You know, all I was using it for was PT programs to write my notes at work, search articles on PubMed. I wasn't using it like these students who grew up through Covid and their undergrad using their computer. So that was a big adjustment, I'd say. When I got to the PA program, I would tell somebody going into grad school, treat it like boot camp. You are going to give this 100%, expect it to take all of your free time. If you get any extra free time, you should be joyful about that. I really treated it like this is my full time job.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:58]: Of course, when I got home, I was mom, so I was full time job all over again. But just really understanding that this is not going to be easy. You have the spot. This is your shot. Give it 100%. Someone else wanted your seat. Someone else worked really hard for your seat. So they could be there and just take advantage of the opportunity and just really focus.

Dee Schwalm [00:14:20]: You need to set a schedule. That was really hard for me as a mom because while I was with my family, my husband and my children, my two daughters, I felt like, oh no, I should be studying all this material. I should be studying in the first month. I did not have this figured out at all. I was feeling guilt there. And then I'd go to school or be studying and feel like I should be with my family. Oh no. And so I was realizing, like, I can't focus in either place.

Dee Schwalm [00:14:43]: If I set a schedule, it gives me freedom. So while I'm in each place, I give a hundred percent at each place. And I would set it down to the hour sometimes. And my girls knew. Oh, they'd come in, it's 6:30, we're gonna eat dinner. Then you're gonna study for 45 minutes and then we're gonna play Barbies for 30 minutes. I mean, they knew, knew. They knew what's happening.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:01]: So setting a schedule, that is huge. Giving yourself grace, even the best students, which I'm not. You're gonna fail at something, you're gonna mess up in grad school and you're gonna sit in your chair and go, oh, no, they accidentally let me in. This spot was meant for someone else. Oh, I'm country mouse in the city. What am I doing here? And it's not true. They know what they're doing. They know why they chose you.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:24]: They saw potential in you. And you just have to trust the process. That's what they always told us. Trust the process. You know, take it week by week. I'm going full mom on you guys right now. Mom advice. Take it week by week.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:37]: Make a schedule, Give yourself some grace and just really just keep at it. Try to exercise, try to eat nutritious foods. Be positive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]: Now, I said, you just completed your PA Degree. Now that you've completed your degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you're about to embark upon?

Dee Schwalm [00:15:58]: So starting the program, I had this thought, like, am I really going to be able to do this? Am I really going to be able to do this and do it well? It's not that long of a time, you know, the didactic portion, and then there's like a year of clinicals. Are they going to really be able to transform me even with my clinical experience? So, I mean, I can't imagine how somebody who's 24, I just think they're amazing. These young people going into grad school, they're superheroes. Watching them transform has been so amazing. But the U of M Flint PA program, you have a rigorous didactic portion where you are learning a lot and they're making sure you understand the information. You're not left hanging out to dry. You're meeting with your advisor twice a semester or more. That's just the baseline.

Dee Schwalm [00:16:44]: And then when you have your clinicals, I feel really prepared because they were in all kinds of settings. You know, I had two family medicine, one month each. So two months of family medicine. I had two months of internal medicine. I was at a level one trauma at Corwell Grand Rapids. I said, hey, I'll go over there. It's only an hour, 10 minutes. Like, let's go.

Dee Schwalm [00:17:02]: I loved that. I got a clinical at the Behavioral Health Urgent Care in Flint. I had women's health. I had pediatrics at Mott Children's Health center in Flint. That was a great experience. I worked in neurosurgery at Hurley Hospital. I mean, I was doing a craniectomy, and I thought, who am I right now? This, like, helping? Of course I wasn't doing it. But they prepare you.

Dee Schwalm [00:17:24]: You have to trust the process and know that when you get to the finish line, you're going to feel confident, you're going to feel ready, and you really could go into any area and learn and grow. You know, it's just great. It's. I feel prepared, I feel excited. For me, it's family medicine and internal medicine that really, I'm the most excited about. And I just want to first take a nap and then I want to start now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: Talk to me about you transitioned from one professional career into now another. And as you said, you're building upon the one to the next. And as you go through these type of programs, whether it be physical therapy, physician assistant, they are rigorous programs. Both of these programs are full time programs. You're putting yourself out there, you're jumping in with both feet and you get pushed from day one. And there are definitely times in programs like these, but also any graduate program where you may feel some imposter syndrome, you may, like you just said, say, I don't know if I can do this. Talk to me about that. As you transition from being a physical therapist to jumping back in as a student, to becoming a physician assistant.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:31]: Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during either graduate studies? And how did you handle it?

Dee Schwalm [00:18:37]: I absolutely did. And I think every student does and will and maybe should feel imposter syndrome. Maybe it keeps you honest, maybe it keeps you hard working. Maybe I felt it. And I think when you come face to face with imposter syndrome, you have a couple decisions you can make. What am I going to do about it? I just going to shrink down and shrink away from this, this, and I don't like the way this feels, so I'm just not going to move forward with this. Or are you going to say, what is it that is making me feel imposter syndrome? Is it because I don't actually know the material? Maybe I know it, but I don't know how to explain it. So I think I don't know it and really take a step back and think, why do I have this feeling? And then try to crush it.

Dee Schwalm [00:19:18]: Try to learn more, practice more. I honestly felt it was strange going back to school because I was older than some of my professors, those young ladies. I didn't really feel at first a connection with the students and I didn't really feel I was at the level of the professors, obviously. So I was just kind of my own little Switzerland. And that made me feel an imposter syndrome almost everywhere I went, like, I'm not one of you and I'm not one of you. But then like the first week I decided this is my spot, this is for me, this is my path. And I'm not gonna spend time and energy feeling this way. I am here to learn just like everyone else.

Dee Schwalm [00:19:54]: There was some internal pressure. The professors never put pressure on me to know more than anyone else or Single out. Like, it wasn't like that. I was just one of the group, which I really appreciated because I really needed that. I would say I felt the internal pressure that, am I going to be expected to know everything? Am I going to be expected to know everything faster? Am I supposed to catch on to this right away? And that really wasn't the case. They gave me the same opportunity to learn as everyone else. And that really helped. Once I realized that, it kind of helped me crush that.

Dee Schwalm [00:20:29]: That imposter syndrome feeling. And then also just realizing, like, this is my spot. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about this. Oh, if they think it's strange or it was just really, this is my spot, and I'm going to take it. I'm going to chase this down.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]: And some graduate students like yourself are going through graduate school while they're balancing being a parent. They have young families. They're trying to better themselves while they're also being mom, dad, et cetera. I know you have two young daughters yourself, and you were going through that PA program while you were being mom, and you talked about that a little bit. Talk to me about the message you're trying to share with your kids about following your passions and your. And your dreams. And how do you talk to them about that?

Dee Schwalm [00:21:14]: Well, they were totally supportive of me going back to school. My husband was totally supportive, which I feel very lucky. At first, when I was starting the program, I didn't realize. I mean, I always talked about it with him, but I'd say involving them in it made it more special for them. Every time after a test, it was, it's test day. You know, Mom's gonna study even more over the next week, but we're all gonna celebrate on Friday. And I remember, like, the first month, like, if I didn't do well on a test, I almost felt like I was letting them down. And I remember not telling him one time, like, oh, my gosh, I didn't do as well on this test as I thought I was gonna do.

Dee Schwalm [00:21:52]: And they saw me studying, would they then be, like, discouraged? And I don't know when it clicked, but I thought, no, I want to teach them how to be successful and work hard, but I also want to teach them what it's like when you fall on your face. And so I told them that didn't work out. And so you get to watch how I'm going to behave when something doesn't work out. Do I give up? Do I keep going? Do I work harder? Do I give myself some Grace and thinking about how they were watching me made me be more positive because it's wiring them for how do I respond when I don't succeed and I don't know what path they'll choose. Maybe they'll choose college, maybe they won't, I don't know. But I want them, whatever they do, to be able to fall on their face and go, that's all right, I got a lot left and get right back up. So that was important to me. That was huge.

Dee Schwalm [00:22:39]: And just involving them and you know, okay, it's the end of the semester, we're going to save up and go to a hotel for a night or two and just try to reward them because they make sacrifices to too. Even though they weren't saying it, they were making sacrifices. Even though I'm sitting next to him on the couch studying with my headphones on, I'm still not as engaging as I would have been if I had him off. So I understood that would try to make time for him and go for walks and how was your day? I read this thing, the 21 minute rule where you're supposed to try to do seven minutes of quality time in the morning and afternoon and evening with your children and just look at them and just listen. And I think just trying to be engaging with them and keep them involved in your, your, in your path of grad school will make everybody in the family feel like they achieved something.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: And as you think back to either of the graduate school experiences that you've gone through, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started either physical therapy or before you started the PA program?

Dee Schwalm [00:23:41]: That it was a good idea that, that I was going to pray every day because I did. So that was very helpful. I wish somebody would have told me that because that was a huge help for me. I don't know that I would have been successful without prayer. I think. I don't know if there's something specific someone can tell you, just that it's going to be time consuming. But it will, it will pass and it will go by quickly. Even though it feels some weeks like it's dragging out, it will go by quickly.

Dee Schwalm [00:24:12]: You know, you will get to the finish line and even though you don't feel prepared by the time you get to the finish line, you will. You have to just trust that you're going to continue growing, not going to walk in and be the boss. You're not going to walk in and be a pt. You're not going to walk in and be a pa. I'm not going to walk into my new job and be great at it. I need to find somewhere where they can teach me and I can learn. And that's just, just be okay with that. Be okay with that.

Dee Schwalm [00:24:40]: I think that's. I wish somebody would have told Young D that before she got into PT school the first time. So.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: And as you look back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in the sciences, in business, in some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dee Schwalm [00:25:08]: Are you focused? Do you have a written out, bulleted list? What are you going to do to get towards this goal this week, this month? And I love to cross off a list. I might write make the list so I can cross off, make the list, make a list, write it out, Keep focused. Because you could easily get lost in time and months go by and you haven't moved forward. Everything might not work out just as you planned. And it might send you in a different direction. You might not get into the graduate program that you wanted to, but maybe that opens another door. You just have to keep your mind open and keep working towards your own success. And you're the only person who writes your story.

Dee Schwalm [00:25:47]: It doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter if your family went to college. It doesn't matter what your past was. You know, if you want to write your story and you want college in it, then chase after it. Then make it happen. Find a way, change jobs, keep working at it until you find a way. Because it's probably your calling. It's probably what you're supposed to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, Dee, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not done. It'd be interesting to see where you land here after you get that next position. I know you just passed your boards. Congratulations. And I'm really excited to be able to see what the future has in store for you. But I really, truly appreciate your time and I wish you the best.

Dee Schwalm [00:26:31]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to do be a Victor in Grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is often described as a journey—full of challenges, opportunities, and transformative experiences. In this episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Michael McGetrick, the co-founder of Spark451, to explore what it really takes to succeed in graduate education and beyond. Whether you're at the start of your academic path, mid-way through your studies, or reflecting on your professional future, you'll find Michael's story both inspiring and relatable.

A Story of Growth, Change, and Connecting the Dots

From his early days as an English and Studio Art major at Brooklyn College, Michael McGetrick recognized the value of pairing creativity with analytical thinking. The transition from traditional design to the digital age led him to realize the profound business impact of his work—a realization that inspired him to pursue graduate studies. By earning a Master's in Management at NYU Tandon School of Engineering, he intentionally sought to bridge creativity, data, and technology, setting the stage for a career at the intersection of these worlds.

But the learning didn't stop there. Motivated by a desire for further growth and transformation, Michael McGetrick returned to earn an MBA. He credits this decision—and the people he met along the way—as a catalyst for founding successful companies like Spark451 and Element451. For Michael McGetrick, graduate school was about more than coursework; it was about building connections, embracing new challenges, and transforming into a leader capable of navigating today's fast-changing technological landscape.

Balancing Life, Work, and Study

One of the episode's resonant themes is balance. Michael McGetrick candidly discusses the realities of juggling academics, a demanding career, and family responsibilities. Whether it was studying alongside his wife or burning the midnight oil after his children went to bed, he emphasizes the importance of commitment, open communication, and finding excitement in the field you choose.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

If you're contemplating graduate school, Michael McGetrick urges you to stay curious, engage deeply with your professors and peers, and draw inspiration from cutting-edge ideas in your discipline. Graduate education, he notes, can truly be a lever for personal and professional transformation.

Ready to be inspired by Michael's full journey and advice? Listen to the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" and take the next step on your own graduate school adventure!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school and maybe it's the right time, maybe it's not. Maybe you've put in that first application, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school no matter where you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: It is truly a journey because there are things that you can do along the way to be able to prepare yourself, but also to find success in that journey that you'll be on. Where you start may not be where you end up in regards to the through line of graduate school and into the careers that you want to go into, but that's why this podcast is here. This podcast is here to help you to be able to start seeing things in different ways, for you to be able to learn new things and to be able to see how others have been able to find success in their own journeys. That's why every week I bring you someone new individuals that have had graduate school experiences that may be like yours, but maybe very, very different than yours as well. The ultimate goal here is that you have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, and to take something out of every episode, whether it's one thing, whether it's 10 things. I want you to be able to have some tools for your toolbox that'll help you to be able to find success sooner. Today we got another great guest. Michael McGetrick is with us today and Michael is the co founder of Spark451.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: It is a company that works in higher education, working with different universities in higher education. We'll talk a little bit about that today, too, about how his own graduate school led him to what he's doing today. But I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share some of his own journey with you. Michael, thanks so much for being here today.

Michael McGetrick [00:02:07]: Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is a topic that is very close to my heart. So excited for this conversation and to share some of my experience with your audience. So thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time because I want to go way back. I want to go all the way back to when you were in that undergraduate space. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at Brooklyn College. You got a bachelor's degree in English and studio art and then you ended up leaving, going off and. But you continued your education in a number of different ways, whether it was through a formal graduate degree or other educational opportunities that allowed for you to be able to grow and learn. I wanted you to take me back to your days at Brooklyn College and talk to me about what lit that spark of continuing education and what made you decide when you first decided that you wanted to go and take that next step, take that next step in your education beyond the bachelor's that you wanted to do that.

Michael McGetrick [00:03:10]: Well, it's a fairly interesting story. You've nailed correctly my history. I did go to Brooklyn College as a commuter. I majored in English. And did you Art with a focus on graphic design, which were two, I would say complimentary majors. To be able to communicate really well with the written word as well as using graphics and visuals. And that was like a nice complimentary skill set. A lot of, a lot of the world was changing at the time from manual paste ups.

Michael McGetrick [00:03:41]: If anyone listening to this could have pictured and imagine there was. There was a time when any like communication that was put together was done with razor blades and glue and they would put paste up, you know, words and typography and paste up photos next to each other. Of course now it's done all with computer and it was transitioning literally at that moment when I was doing that work. So as much as the world is had multiple transition points, that was one of the big ones. And so with that developing skill, I was able to be walked into an ad agency in New York and to the studio by my professor, Professor Richard Navin. And he said, oh, this is McG, he's really good, you should hire him. And they hired me on the spot. And that was like a really nice thing for a professor to do for me and got me started in my career literally that way.

Michael McGetrick [00:04:31]: So I spent quite a bit of time growing and learning. Advertising and technology was changing and certainly the web took off and websites were a big part of the work that I was doing. And I had this realization that being first focused on the craft design, storytelling, user experience. But over time I noticed something important, that the work I was doing wasn't just creative, it was really, really directly influencing Business outcomes, campaigns that sometimes would affect sales or if it was for a university, affect enrollments, websites that affected conversion rates, the sign decisions that impacted the revenue for the organizations that I was working with. And so that realization really shifted my perspective and I became less interested in just executing the work and more interested in understanding the systems that were underneath it, how the decisions were made, how these organizations were growing, and, you know, how data and technology, which were kind of like mysterious things to me but were becoming more tangible as I was using them, and how they shape the strategy of an organization. And that's really what led me to graduate school. To answer your question, I made this intentional decision to study management, but within an engineering school. I wanted to surround myself with a more quantitative, systems oriented approach to business because that's the kind of work I was doing, doing E commerce websites, selling things on the web, connecting to inventory systems.

Michael McGetrick [00:05:59]: It wasn't just about leaving creativity behind, it was pairing it with something more analytical, with a lot of thinking and innovation behind it. And ultimately that combination really defines what I do today and my work in higher education, marketing, enrollment strategy. I'm constantly sitting on that intersection of creativity, data and technology. So whether it's building some digital campaigns, looking at student behavior, mapping out student journeys, or now working with AI driven engagement, you know, the goal is always the same, that I want creative thinking and measurable outcomes. I want those two things to intersect at all times. So in a lot of ways, graduate school gave me the tools to move upstream in the value chain, not just to create the work, but to help shape the strategy behind it. And that whole experience has been incredibly valuable, especially now as we go through another technological revolution where AI is reshaping how the institutions I work with connect with their customers, connect with their students. And I think that going forward from a graduate school perspective, there's going to be a lot of value for the listeners.

Michael McGetrick [00:07:06]: Think about how they might want to bridge different interests of theirs. Creativity, technology, business thinking. You know, the people who can connect those things together in the AI age are the ones who are really going to be able to drive some impact. So I think it's an interesting story that's kind of my, my big picture of what drove me there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:22]: So talk to me a bit about. You're in New York, there's a lot of universities in the New York area. You ended up deciding to go to NYU Tandon School of Engineering, as you said, focusing on looking at management, but through a bit more of a technological lens. And I'm sure there were Other programs you probably could have chosen along the way. Talk to me about the process that you went through when you made that decision to go and get that first master's degree in management. What made you decide on nyu?

Michael McGetrick [00:07:54]: Yeah, so I think I saw Steve Jobs give that commencement speech at Stanford about connecting the dots. And he basically laid out the story. It's, you know, he. He studied calligraphy at Reed College, which led him to value typography to be great on the Mac. And other things happened in his life that led to the path that led to Apple. And so I started thinking of, like, you know, hey, I've got sort of this. This technology movement that's happening, and I'm dealing bases and like, learning it on the fly and not really sure everything that's happening contextually with it and working with engineers and developers and business people. And so I said, you know, I feel like I'm on the technology side of business here.

Michael McGetrick [00:08:38]: And so that's where I want to approach my graduate education. I think I need to be on the technology side of business. So I looked around and some schools have great business programs and some have great technology programs. And I said, I. I want a comb of both. And that's where a engineering school that had a management department was very attractive to me. And the fact that you can study with engineers was a big part of it. But I will say there was one thing that gave me pause, right? It's like, did I belong? I think a lot of your listeners might have that question, do I belong here? And also, I was coming back after being out of school for maybe eight years.

Michael McGetrick [00:09:17]: And so I had left all my study habits behind. I had forgotten how to solve for X with math. And like, literally, I'm like, when started taking courses, had to, like, get some tutorials on algebra and. And lead everything leading up to calculus to reawaken my mind to remember the high school math I had taken. So those questions of will I belong in this organization? Will I belong in this school? They came up and, you know, ultimately I think, you know, you can find your place wherever you might wind up. You discover that you do belong if you put in the work and people appreciate that and. And a community gets formed. So I did wind up in the right place.

Michael McGetrick [00:09:55]: And I think it worked out very well for me. And I apprec. Experience I had there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: And you talked about the fact that it was about eight years from the point in which you got your bachelor's. It went to getting that master's degree, and then almost another Another five years down the road from there, you decided to go back again to get another Master's degree, also from nyu. And not everybody decides to make that choice to continue getting another degree after they get two degrees. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that getting an MBA on top of your Ms. In was something that would help you to move further forward?

Michael McGetrick [00:10:34]: Yeah, so I think that was sort of an existential moment. I was at a point in my career where I felt like I needed to take another leap. I was kind of doing the same thing for a while, running an agency and like kind of remaining in the same spot. It was going very well. But what was the next thing I wanted to hit career wise. So for me, I look to higher education for, as a transformation, a transformer, a catalyst. Right. I say, okay, like you want to become something new, you need to have different inputs.

Michael McGetrick [00:11:08]: So for me, the MBA was an attractive program for a couple of reasons. First, it just so happened that if you had a Master's in management, they would transfer a certain number of credits into the MBA program, which was a very flexible, nice offering that they had. And second, it was a real kind of transformational time. Social media was taking off again, another technological revolution taking place. So there was good timing there, all the Web 2.0 stuff happening. So there was a convergence of factors. And then just the. There were a few professors there that I had become friendly with that were running the program and I just knew I wanted to be there with them.

Michael McGetrick [00:11:50]: So all these things aligned to say, hey, this is a great idea. Let's, let's go into the MBA program at the NYU School of Engineering and see what happens. And if I were to continue, I'd say it was incredibly transformational. Once again, I happen to be in school with, with some really talented individuals in the program, people who are doing incredible things in their day to day work. It tended to be people who were a little bit older, like average age of 30 plus. And, and everybody was a successful professional in their own right. And so I got to meet and do projects with some great people and I took a course that was very transformational, a course in entrepreneurship with this professor named Bruce Niswander. And he was the head of the incubator at nyu and he was responsible for launching all sorts of companies.

Michael McGetrick [00:12:42]: So he wasn't just a scholar, but he was an applied researcher, an applied professor, and he really practiced what he preached. So he had us create companies and come up with cash flow statements and he made it very tangible and real. And every part of the entrepreneurship process exposed to us from a person who practiced it. I happened to meet a classmate and become very close with him, a software engine engineer. His name was Artist Kadu. And we became really close and we had done a project together and we sort of, sort of say, hey, you know, we ever decided to start a company, we should do it together. And so that was sort of like the beginning of the idea of what eventually became Spark451, which is the company I founded with him and another NYU engineering grad named Steve Kersh. And it started in that classroom, you know, really from a vision of mutual ideas.

Michael McGetrick [00:13:35]: Artis was a software engineer, and he had lots of ideas about higher education software, and I had ideas about higher education marketing. And Steve was higher education enrollment expert. And the three of us converged and formulated the idea to start Spark 51. And it was purely from that graduate experience that startup became a viable entity and led to another startup named element451, which is also an extremely successful company, and that artists eventually spun off and became the CEO of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So talk to me a little bit about what you learned in the program. You just talked about the connections that you made and how those connections led to two different companies that spun off from that education and those connections that you built in that education. And now that you look at the degrees that you did receive for yourself and you think back to what you learned in those degrees, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received prepared you for the work that you are still doing on a day to day basis?

Michael McGetrick [00:14:39]: So I heard a great quote once that said, students learn from what they think and what they do, and only from what they think and what they do. And so the graduation I received, it had a lot of great subject matters that converged. But the thing that was transformational for me was I was purely liberal arts leading up to that points, right. I thought any problem could be solved by more messaging, more creativity, more marketing, more advertising. And I realized that there was so much to the equation by working in the field, but now actually sort of understanding it. And the course that really did it for me was managerial economics. The idea that you can model the future, right? And you can model any particular system in the world and create inputs that lead to outputs. And so you kind of start to connect the dots that any kind of business system has a whole series of inputs, and we learned mathematical equations from modeling them.

Michael McGetrick [00:15:40]: And so it kind of brought all these disparate systems together and, and created this new shift in My mind and thinking that, yeah, you know, you can, you can manage these very large things by thinking about them from a system perspective, from a model perspective, and you can break them down into individual components and try to optimize them. And that became my, my way of thinking about managing organizations and, and managing systems and managing very complex projects that they're, you know, there are series of inputs and outputs and you can manage those inputs individually, you can delegate them individually, and that's the way large organizations work and trying to optimize them. All of the necessary data that has to come into those equations and all the statistical analysis that can be. Be applied across them and you learn these things across different classes in quantitative analysis and, and statistics. So like, I had this whole new tool set that was available to me to make me a much more effective professional. And these programs, I give them credit for transforming me, like literally changing who I was in the world to a new person. You can change someone or you can transform them. And I think the most valuable graduate programs create that sense of transformation that I.

Michael McGetrick [00:17:02]: New person coming out of this. Maybe not a new person to the people that love you and your family and your, you know, your spouse, but certainly a new person as you show up in, in the world professionally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: Just talked about your spouse or your family. And as you go through graduate school, there's a lot of balance that has to happen for you to be able to be successful as a student. But you're also wearing many hats as a professional, personally, with your family, friends, or others. Talk to me about balance for yourself. And how did you find that balance as you were going through graduate school that allowed for you to be able to find the success that you wanted in the experience that you went through?

Michael McGetrick [00:17:44]: Yeah, well, I'm very glad you asked that. I have sort of a couple of different perspectives there. The first degree, I was a married man with no kids yet, so I felt like I was able to balance that by sitting at the table at night doing my reading with my wife next to me and going through the problems. Very large problem sets, sometimes operations management. You'd have like many, many pages of equations to solve and just like literally sharing with her what I was reading and going through and said Billy Joel song, tell her about it. That was sort of my, my approach to putting in time with her while actually doing studying, just making sure that she was involved in knowing what I was going through and what I was learning. And we'd have interesting conversations around it. And so it was fun.

Michael McGetrick [00:18:31]: It's very fond Memory of those times in our first apart and going through large textbooks of manager economics and operations management. And then later when I got the MBA program, I had two children at the time and so that became even more difficult. But it was a matter of commitment to all the above and just you didn't want to do anything in half measures, right? So you want it to be continue your professional output, handle your work very well, your full time job, but also still be a great parent and still do excellent work in your MBA program and go all out. So that was my commitment to just go all out in all three. So cut back in a little sleep, Chris. But hit every project really hard. Fit, fit in everything I could. Putting in some late nights after the kids go to sleep to, to get it done.

Michael McGetrick [00:19:16]: And just that commitment that you were building towards something that was leading toward a better future and better for these kids and for your spouse. So it was just a full commitment to it all and just, you know, maybe sharing that idea with your spouse that this is something you're committed to and you're going to give it your best on all fronts and if you fall on one of them, so be it. You'll make it on the next week and give it your best shot all the way through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:41]: Earlier you'd mentioned that when you went to graduate school the first time, it had been eight years. It was five years after that when you went to get that second master's degree. And whenever I talk to individuals about graduate school, there is a transition. There's a transition going from one, one type of degree to another type of degree, going from bachelor's to master's. You went from a very different type of bachelor's degree into a master's degree in a completely different type of area. And there is a transition that you go through in from one degree to the next and understanding expectations and learning what you need to do to be able to be successful. Take me back and talk to me a little bit about those things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school and figuring out the, just that beginning part of it, but also as you were going through those graduate school experiences, what you had to do to again find success as you were going through that journey.

Michael McGetrick [00:20:35]: Yeah, reflecting back on it, it was a fairly rough transition in the first semester, just getting back into reading and assignments and, and as I mentioned before, doing things mathematically, solving, solving math problems again. Ah, I thought, I put this aside and thought I got past all this, but here I am again doing it. So yeah, that was a fairly rough transition and certainly I needed to get back on the path. And the other was, it was a new vocabulary. And I, you know, whatever, whatever area of study you pursue, there's always going to be that set of vocabulary that you need to become comfortable with. And so I think the, the program did a great job by forcing us to make multiple presentations to the class. So you had to prepare, you had to deliver the presentation, use the words, talk about it, use the vocabulary. And so, so after that initial, rough start of getting in and dealing with this new set of vocabulary, and again, a lot of the things were engineering project management, for example, the engineers seem to have a much better handle on it than I did and, and was taught in a very engineering type way and, and taught in the context of construction and civil engineering projects, which were completely foreign to me.

Michael McGetrick [00:21:54]: But you dig in, you ask questions, you work in teams, you engage your classmates. And, and I think that's another part of the graduate experience that enriches your experiences, just working with diverse teams and groups of people who have different experiences and share that so you can learn as much from your classmates as you can from your professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:15]: Speaking of professors, I know that you also are an adjunct faculty member at a couple different institutions and you've taught classes along the way. So you're interacting with students at different points in their own careers and talking to them about the journeys that they're on. Talk to me about the learning that you have there and the conversations that you've had with students. And what do you tell students now as they may come to you and talk to you about graduate school or future education for themselves?

Michael McGetrick [00:22:44]: First of all, teaching as an adjunct was something that I started out doing to make some extra money to help with the mortgage payments, to help with the rent. And I've continued to do it to this day because it's become a, you know, a passion project. Right. Like I think most adjuncts at some of these professional schools are, you know, just do it because they love the experience, they love working with students, and they love the type of interaction and engagement that we get and sharing our professional experience with the next generation. And that's what it's become for me. So, you know, I think of graduate education as, on a couple of ways when I'm, when I'm advising students. Like, I think first that if you're going to go right after undergrad, like you've had all these different variety of courses you've had to take, you might have a core curriculum at your College, you may have your major, you may have a second major, you may have a minor. So you have all these really different types of courses along with your major.

Michael McGetrick [00:23:39]: And as you become a senior from junior into senior year, you start really understanding that vocabulary. You're starting to really get into the groove of that particular field. And so you have this incredible momentum that you could carry directly into a graduate program that will lead to your success in that graduate program. So I think that's one advantage of going into a master's program right out of undergrad is like you're just ear in the groove, you'll get it done on, you'll accelerate your learning and you can just sort of truly become a master of that field. And that's one way of looking at it. The other is I did appreciate for business education, I think you really should hold off a couple years and work for a few years. If you're going to get a master's in business or an mba, I think it's much more valuable to go out and get a few years of experience and then really you'll appreciate and apply the learning much more rapidly if you have some business context, a few years of experience. So that's why the best MBA program programs require that.

Michael McGetrick [00:24:36]: In addition, they want to, they want to have better starting salaries for their graduates, you know, self serving in that. But I think it's, it served the students well to just have that contextual business experience. And then finally I think graduate education can be that transformative experience to change you from one thing to another. And if you're looking for a change in career, if you're looking to enter a different field, if you felt like your undergraduate major was something that isn't going to connect you directly to a career, I think a master's program can be that catalyst to connect you to a whole new career. And there are so many programs that do that. So no matter what your undergraduate program is, if you feel you wasted your money, if you feel like you wasted your time, you can find a graduate program out there that will connect you into a lucrative, high paying career. The, the possibilities are infinite and out there. So definitely think about graduate education as that, that lever to trans that career switch, if you will.

Michael McGetrick [00:25:35]: No doubt about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:35]: And I guess finally as you look back at your own graduate experiences or graduate school experiences and you're talking to individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, in technology, in whatever area it might be, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would Help them find success sooner.

Michael McGetrick [00:25:57]: When I think about my own experience, I feel like I was super excited about the graduate program I was going to undertake. And I had read a few business books that got me excited and sort of connected to the narrative of business. And so if I were going to give some quick advice to someone who was looking for launching their success, I would just say, you know, make sure you're up to speed on the latest thinking in your field. Make sure you're. Before you start the program, read some of the more interesting literature that is in your field. Tap into the, let's say, the strongest, most appreciated minds in your field and read their books, read their literature, read their articles to get you excited about what's happening in the field and what's going to learn. Because I think excitement and enthusiasm are the things that are going to lead to your success. And that is going to be something that sustains you when the work gets hard, when you have other obligations in life and it might be easy to take a semester off.

Michael McGetrick [00:27:08]: So just try to maintain that excitement and enthusiasm about the program you're going to undertake. Second, your professors are there because they have a passion for what they do. They are dedicated to your success. They've devoted their lives and their careers to produce successful students, and ultimately that's what they want. While they give you hard work and hard assignments and hard projects to do, do they do ultimately want your success. So tap into their capabilities. Tap into them as a resource. They don't want you to fail.

Michael McGetrick [00:27:40]: They want you to succeed in a big way. And furthermore, they can have incredible networks that can connect you to opportunities that you may not think are out there, whether professional connections, research, so on and so forth. And I would say, you know, getting involved at the graduate level, making, making friends, making connections. If you do an online program, there's still community to be had. If you're on campus, make sure you're taking the time to not just go to class and do the work, but to really engage with your fellow students and build connections that are going to be there for life as they have been for me. So get that sustaining interest and excitement about the program, tap into your professors and that and build your community in whatever form that takes, whether on campus or online. And I think you're going to have an amazing time in a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:33]: Well, Michael, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not over, your journey continues. But I truly appreciate you sharing all of this today and the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best.

Michael McGetrick [00:28:47]: Thank you Chris. It's been a pleasure and good luck to everyone out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

Graduate school is a unique and often challenging journey, filled with twists, turns, and transformative experiences. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Jeff Yackley, Assistant Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack the realities of graduate life and share powerful insights for current and aspiring grad students.

From the outset, Dr. Jeff Yackley takes listeners on a personal journey that began with dreams of medical school and shifted through industry, eventually landing with passion in academia and research. Through these major transitions, Dr. Jeff Yackley underscores the importance of introspection—the ability to honestly assess one's motivations and strengths—and resiliency, the determination to keep moving forward even when plans change or setbacks occur.

A striking moment comes as Dr. Jeff Yackley describes grappling with self-doubt, particularly when struggling to publish his first research paper. Despite repeated rejections, he found strength by relying on his support system—advisors, labmates, and trusted faculty—and by redefining success on his own terms. Classroom teaching became a powerful wellspring of confidence, "I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students," he shares, highlighting that encouragement can come from unexpected places (10:51).

Throughout the episode, the theme of connection is evident. Dr. Jeff Yackley credits the guidance of a faculty mentor for seeing potential in him and encouraging a path in research and teaching. He emphasizes the value of getting to know your professors, participating in lab groups, and building relationships with peers—essential for both professional growth and personal resilience.

Time management, another common grad school struggle, is addressed with practical advice. Dr. Jeff Yackley shares strategies like breaking tasks into manageable pieces and avoiding perfectionism, admitting, "things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough" (13:48).

The episode closes with actionable tips for those considering graduate school: deepen your curiosity, go beyond assignment requirements, and embrace opportunities to connect with faculty and peers. Whether your interest is in computer science, business, or any other field, Dr. Jeff Yackley's journey is proof that success is shaped by resilience, self-reflection, and the relationships you build along the way.

Interested in more insights like these? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and start building your own toolbox for graduate success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have a conversation with you, for you to be here, to learn more, and to be working toward that goal or those goals that you've set for yourself. You are truly on a journey. You're on a journey through that graduate education that you want to achieve. And I call it a journey because it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Every person that goes to graduate school is on a little bit of a different path, is on a little bit of a different journey. But along the way, there are things that you can do to be able to be successful in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences. And from those experiences, my hope is that you'll take a few nuggets, you'll take some things out of every conversation to be able to add some tools to your toolbox and be able to do what you can, to be able to move yourself along and find that success sooner. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Jeff Yackley is with us today. And Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]: Yackley is an assistant professor at the University of Michigan Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology. And I'm really excited to be able to have him chat with you to and for us to learn a little bit more about his own experience. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:01:32]: Thanks, Chris. It's an honor to be here and to be able to share my experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing this today. And I guess I want to go back in time a little bit because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and then at some point during that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that at some point that a along the way you were going to continue your education, and you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and then went over to the University of Michigan, Dearborn, but then you continued on and you decided to continue on to get the master's and the doctorate, both from the University of Michigan, Dearborn as well. Bring me back to that early point where you were going through that undergraduate degree and you said, you know what? I'm not done. And I want to continue what was Going through your head.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:02:23]: Well, that's quite a story, Chris. I guess to start when I graduate, graduated from U of M, Ann Arbor in biochemistry, I had dreams of going to medical school, and I tried to force the route, went to a Caribbean school. And when I did go to a hospital, I found I didn't like dealing with all of the things that you would expect in a medical environment, all of the horrible pain and suffering that can occur in a hospital. And so I talked with the dean of the medical school, actually, and he had suggested if I had not wanted to go down this path, what would I pursue? And he was suggesting law school at the time. And I said I didn't think that was for me. And I had this early love of computers in high school that I never really got to explore. And so I looked for an opportunity to be able to pursue that. And so I went to the U of M Dearborn.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:05]: And while at Dearborn, I had made some connections with several faculty members, and I must have had three or four classes with one individual. And we really worked well together. And I ended up taking some leadership positions in a couple of the classes on some significant term projects. And when I graduated, I would say, in computer science, it's pretty common that a lot of students don't go to grad school. And I was no different. I wanted to jump right in and see what industry was like. I had done an internship, and after a short time in industry, I really wasn't feeling that the current situation I was in, how do I say it, they were using outdated technologies. And I really felt that if I didn't stay current, particularly with the growth in AI, that I was going to fall behind.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:48]: And I really wanted to jump careers again to go back from the current development environment I was working in to more of an automotive placement, since I figured being in Michigan, that was a really great career move. But when I started my master's degree and I really had this idea that I wanted to keep pursuing this graduate education, I was approached actually by that instructor for my undergraduate degree. And he had suggested that U of M Dearborn was now opening a PhD program and it might be something I'd be interested in. And he thought I had some qualifications that would make me well suited for it. We had worked previously together, and I really respected him and really enjoyed really exploring the topics in his class together through his instruction. And so I decided, yeah, let's make a third career switch and go from medicine to software development to now looking at more of an academic role and pursuing Research, and that's really where I entered PhD program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:45]: Now, at every level of education, there are transitions that you go through. And you went through a number of transitions. You went from undergrad to med school, from med school back to undergrad, from grad, from undergrad to master's and then to doctorate. And at every level, there's different expectations, there's different perspectives, there's different demands from faculty, different demands on reading, different demands on lots of different things. And you have to maneuver through those transitions. You have to figure out, what does it mean to find success as I jump from one to the next. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different graduate school experiences to find success? And what did you have to do throughout those different experiences, through the journey in those different programs, programs and experiences to sustain that success throughout the entirety?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:05:41]: I really think there's been two things, which is really resiliency and also introspection. And I think before you make the move, you really have to decide, is this what you want? Is this what you are really looking for in terms of an experience and being honest with yourself about where you're at and what you want to do and what your current abilities are? Back when I was in medical school, it was a very hard decision to give up that career path and not keep pushing forward. And I must have spent several months just thinking about what I was going to do. And I would say anyone looking to make a major career decision like that should, of course, spend a large amount of time thinking about it. But then also there is that resiliency aspect where in your graduate education, things aren't always going to go to plan. You might struggle on a research project or getting a certain research paper published at a journal or conference. And all along that way, you have to keep pushing it forward. You have to keep willing to put in the hours to revise and adapt, listen to feedback that you get, and just keep pushing yourself ahead to be better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]: Yeah, you definitely have to do that. You have to go through that and figure that out for yourself many times to find out what it means to find that resiliency and pick yourself up as you go along. Because there will be times that. Where things are hard and you may have to push through, or you have to pivot and figure out, as you said in your medical school experience, that it wasn't the right fit. Now, you talked about the fact that a faculty member saw something in you and that they invested in you and encouraged you to think Think differently about what you were doing and what that end goal was. Talk to me about that. Because as you said, you entered your secondary graduate school experience in computer science thinking you wanted to do one thing, but then when you had that investment in that faculty member that was trying to encourage you, talk to me about that thought process for yourself. Because I'm sure that it wasn't an easy, aha, yes, this is exactly what I want to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:39]: It probably had some introspection, as you mentioned, that you had to go through. So talk to me about that.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:07:44]: Yeah, so it was another big decision, really trying to decide did I want to stay in industry or basically commit to this more academic role. And along that way, I had thought a lot about what I really enjoyed during my undergraduate degree with this professor and how we explored different questions. And what I really enjoyed was kind of that process of discovery, being able to pursue a topic I was particularly passionate about and being encouraged to see where it goes and without necessarily being told how to do it or, you know, this is what you have to do. I was allowed to really explore and see what worked and what didn't. And that was something even in industry that I didn't get because you have to meet certain project deadlines, you have to publish products in order to the company to make money. And in the academic environment, though, the real drive is discovery and innovation. And I really got to have fun with that. I also had thought a lot about my experiences at an undergraduate where I volunteered a lot, where I taught to high schoolers students, high school students, and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts at U of M Dearborn, for they were on their surface to teach computer science topics, but to the university they were recruitment efforts, of course, but at these events, I really enjoyed getting to help people understand a topic that I was passionate about.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:08:59]: And so right after I entered this program, I started to teach right away because I was already familiar with U of M Dearborn's classes. They had a lot of trust in how successful I had been at my undergraduate level and really handed off my first lab that I had to teach. And pretty much from that moment, I was hooked because I found not only did I enjoy the research aspect, but I really enjoyed getting to teach. And I almost felt that that was more rewarding in the end. And so with this professor that I had, he really encouraged me to keep at discovering and practicing my teaching abilities as well. So I taught pretty much every semester that I had since I entered the PhD program. So almost for five years straight, I

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:38]: taught every semester Every grad student goes through a point in time where they say to themselves, am I good enough? Is this what I should be doing? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome, feeling of inequity, feeling of as I said, I'm not good enough for this or I shouldn't be here, or should I be here. Did that ever happen to you? And I'm guessing it did at med school, but talk to me about that and how imposter syndrome or self doubt kind of reared its head for you as you were going through it and how did you handle it.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:10:08]: So for kind of those experiences, it was, I think most recently, and this one's probably a little bit easier to talk about, which is going to be my first paper in trying to transition from a PhD student to a PhD candidate with that qualification exam. In that case, I had really struggled to get my first paper published. My co advisor was really adamant that the work was sound and I didn't really believe him, mainly because every time we submitted to one of the top A level conferences, we would get negative feedback and they wouldn't believe that we had discovered this transfer learning between these two software engineering processes. And we had the data and I kept churning through it in my head. I kept rewriting the papers again and again for another conference and another conference and eventually we did get it published. But along that way I really questioned if this was for me, if I was doing things right or if I belonged here because I couldn't get acceptance at the professional level through that acceptance of your first conference paper. And it really hurt each time I get those really stinging rejections. And I suppose it really just took falling back on, is this what I wanted to do? And checking with the people that I trusted, my two advisors, particularly the one that I had at the undergraduate level, and talking with them and making sure that was I doing the right thing? Am I on a wrong base? Am I getting good results even if they're not being accepted? And along the way you really do doubt yourself.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:11:31]: And I think you need to find moments where things are, are good enough for you, where success in your own definitions rather than finding that exterior validation. And for me that really came from the classroom where even though at the research area or publication rate I wasn't getting that instant gratification, that instant success, but in the classroom I was so I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students, seeing them succeed in the classroom and wanting to take other classes with me. And that really helped drive me to keep going ahead.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:04]: That goes back to that whole conversation of resiliency and having to push through and being able to know that you may get pushed down, that you got to get yourself back up and be able to kind of dust yourself off and keep moving forward. And every person, as you're going through graduate school, you have to wear a lot of hats. You got to balance things and you have to. Many graduate students are having to balance things like not only school, but work, family, personal responsibilities. While going through graduate school. How did you balance all of the hats that you had to wear as you were going through that process?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:12:37]: I guess there's one answer which is I still haven't figured it out. Even as a professor, there's so many hats that we wear all the time. But I would say that I was very honored and grateful for the opportunity U of M. Dearborn saw in me. And they gave me a scholarship so I didn't actually have to to work. I had given up my role in industry to go full time on my PhD and I had that graduate student instructor role at 50%. So as long as I taught two courses a semester, they funded my education, which was really great. I know that not everyone can benefit from that and it is a tremendous honor.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:13:10]: So that relieved a lot of pressure. So I was really left with sort of a couple hats there. I had to contribute with research and I had to contribute with teaching, and I had to contribute to still performing some service, which was recruitment efforts, small talks with other grad students in the lab, mentorship, things like that. And balancing those three things was extremely difficult. As a student, you want to, of course, spend all of your time writing the best research that you can, and your advisors are constantly pushing you to complete the work, to get it out and published. And in the meantime, you have 30 to 60 students constantly asking for your attention as yourself still a student. And that required learning new ways to deal with time management, becoming really comfortable with things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough. Which means that you want to deliver a high quality piece of work, but at the same time, if you spend too much of your effort refining it again and again and again until you think it's, it's 100% perfect, which nothing ever will be, then you've really lost all of that extra time you could have been spending on one of your other jobs.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:14:15]: And so I found through a computer science topic in Agile Project management, learning a little bit about Kanban boards and how to break up everything that I have to do into smaller tasks, basically write down how much time I think they'll take, move them through. Let's say today I'm going to take this route, this task. I'm going to work on it until it's completed and then once that's done, I can shift to another task, task and so on. And that really helped organize how I went about working and dealing with some of those issues of perfection. I mean, I just had to decide, was this task completed well enough that I could put it in the completed category. And kind of other little time management tricks that you learn over the years, how to deal with email and things like that really, really help with that needing to wear multiple hats issue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:57]: And as you were going through graduate school, you talked about the fact that you had a lot of support as you were going through there. And you do develop relationships with faculties and other, with faculty and students. And I guess as you were going through that, were there any other campus resources or student organizations that helped to support your success?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:15:17]: When I was an undergraduate at U of M, Dearborn, acm, the association for Computing Machinery, had a student chapter. And through there I made a lot of friends and connections and we worked together on quite a few projects. I mean, the friends that I met, we also took classes together. And so we would work on term projects well together and push forward there. But at the graduate level, I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, there wasn't time for, for extracurriculars or student organizations. I was so overwhelmed with needing to do the teaching and the research that I wasn't able to participate as much as I wanted to in other campus activities. So I would say that I really fell back mostly upon my own lab group and the postdocs that were in the lab, learning from them, learning from the other undergraduate students, or learning from the other graduate students in that lab group, being able to bounce ideas off them, have them bounce ideas off me, which would of course make me think about new avenues, really helped. And so I really.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:16:12]: Learning the other people in your lab group, learning other students who are working on similar things to you can really be beneficial. And not only improving your own work, but then also being able to find those resources to help you find that resiliency as well. So if you see other people struggling with the same issues that you are struggling with publications or struggling in a class or struggling with a certain concept and you struggle with it together, you suddenly feel that, yeah, this is normal, you belong. It's just normal to have to fight

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:43]: through this and I guess as you think about not only your own graduate school experiences, but also your experience as a faculty member. Now, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education, whether it's in computer science, physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:17:01]: I would say make sure you're taking advantage of office hours and talking with your professor. Getting to know them is really critical for a great graduate education because once you've made connection, it's really easy to propose different research avenues or to be able to pursue different advanced topics through elective courses. I would say that a lot of things were what professors are looking for in terms of students are those that are curious, those that want to explore topics beyond the classroom. So going above and beyond, I think one of the best ways that you can do that is by taking a project in the class and not just meeting the requirements, but exceeding them. A couple of the students that I've worked with, with, I did never ask them to do some of the features that they added into some of these programs, but on their own initiative because they were curious and they wanted to do more and they wanted to show off. They went and learned a lot more than they had to outside of the classroom and ended up delivering just phenomenal work. So much so that I reached out and asked them if they were interested in doing research projects.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: Well, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for talking to us about the ins and outs and ups and downs and kind of turns along the way that you went through to be able to get to where you are today. And I just want to say thank you and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:18:16]: You're very welcome. And thank you again for having me. It was an honor to be able to talk with you for a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:20]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UMFlint.Edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

For many students, the decision to pursue graduate school is not a straight path. It is a journey filled with uncertainty, exploration, self-discovery, and growth. In this episode of the podcast, listeners meet Maxwell Camara, whose story perfectly captures what it means to embrace the process of finding your purpose.

Max's journey did not begin in physical therapy. In fact, he originally started in engineering before eventually transitioning into kinesiology and discovering a passion for helping others heal through movement and rehabilitation. One of the strongest themes throughout this conversation is that it is okay not to have everything figured out right away. Max openly shares that even after applying to physical therapy school, he still was not completely certain it was the right fit. It was not until he became immersed in clinical experiences and hands-on patient care that he truly found confidence in his path.

Another key theme in the episode is the power of experiential learning. Max discusses how opportunities like the HEART Clinic at the University of Michigan-Flint helped shape his professional identity. Through direct patient interaction, leadership experiences, mentoring younger students, and even participating in research projects involving wearable technology, he was able to connect classroom knowledge to real-world impact. His experiences demonstrate that graduate school is about far more than lectures and exams—it is about applying what you learn to make a difference in people's lives.

The conversation also dives deeply into balance and resilience. Max speaks honestly about the challenges of transitioning from undergraduate coursework to the demands of doctoral-level education. He explains how treating graduate school like a full-time job, developing consistent routines, prioritizing exercise, and building a strong support system helped him maintain both academic success and personal well-being. His reflections on imposter syndrome are especially relatable, reminding listeners that self-doubt is common, but growth often happens when you push beyond your comfort zone.

For anyone considering graduate school, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement. Max emphasizes the importance of getting involved early, talking to professionals in the field, exploring hands-on opportunities, and truly understanding the profession before committing to a graduate program.

Whether you are considering physical therapy, another healthcare field, or graduate education in general, this episode is packed with authentic insights that will help you think more intentionally about your future. Max's story is a reminder that success is not always about having all the answers from the beginning—it is about being willing to learn, adapt, and keep moving forward.

TRANSCRIPT

1 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:18.379 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you every week.

2 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:23.449 Christopher Lewis: on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

3 00:00:23.750 --> 00:00:30.120 Christopher Lewis: Whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is grad school right for me? Or maybe you've…

4 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:37.740 Christopher Lewis: decided, yep, I'm applying, or maybe you did apply, it got accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are.

5 00:00:37.940 --> 00:00:40.050 Christopher Lewis: You are truly on a journey.

6 00:00:40.450 --> 00:00:47.830 Christopher Lewis: And as you're going through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on.

7 00:00:47.980 --> 00:01:02.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have this conversation with you, to walk with you, to provide you with some tips and tricks and things that you can put into that toolbox that you bring with you everywhere.

8 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:07.099 Christopher Lewis: That's why every week I also love being able to introduce you to new people.

9 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:20.450 Christopher Lewis: New people with different experiences that have all gone through what you're going through, and can provide you with some perspective, some things for you to think about, and maybe some things to implement for yourself.

10 00:01:21.410 --> 00:01:23.589 Christopher Lewis: Today we've got another great guest.

11 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:26.190 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest.

12 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.190 Christopher Lewis: Is it Max or Maxwell? Which would… what do you go by?

13 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:30.359 Maxwell Camara: Max is good.

14 00:01:32.650 --> 00:01:36.910 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Max Kamara is with us today.

15 00:01:37.130 --> 00:01:39.230 Christopher Lewis: Max is a…

16 00:01:40.210 --> 00:01:58.709 Christopher Lewis: Max is just finishing up his second year in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan, Flint, working into his third year, gonna be finishing off this year. I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about the journey that he's been on, and to share that with you. Max, thanks so much for being here today.

17 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:00.220 Maxwell Camara: Thank you for having me.

18 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:13.849 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and at some point in that journey.

19 00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:23.960 Christopher Lewis: you made the decision. You made the decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring it back to that point, and what was going through your head?

20 00:02:24.330 --> 00:02:25.300 Maxwell Camara: Sure.

21 00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:36.020 Maxwell Camara: So actually, before I was a student at U of M Ann Arbor, I was a student at the University of Colorado my freshman year, and I studied engineering.

22 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.730 Maxwell Camara: So, physical therapy was definitely not on the radar for quite some time.

23 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:59.470 Maxwell Camara: So I think for me deciding to go to physical therapy school, a graduate school, it really was more of a slow burn, more of a process, and that really started once I was in Ann Arbor. So, once COVID had happened in 2020, I moved back to Michigan, so I went back to Michigan.

24 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:10.739 Maxwell Camara: to finish out my school, I went into kinesiology knowing that I really enjoyed exercise, I had some good mentors, that taught me about the great things the body can do on its own to heal.

25 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:18.059 Maxwell Camara: So… Physical therapy was one of those options, so I ended up joining the pre-PT club.

26 00:03:18.690 --> 00:03:31.689 Maxwell Camara: I was in that for a year, and then I became the service member, so I talked with a lot of the employers around the area, a lot of PTs, in Michigan, and then I eventually became the president of that club.

27 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:33.909 Maxwell Camara: Interestingly, I would say.

28 00:03:34.190 --> 00:03:43.090 Maxwell Camara: even at that point, I was still pretty unsure if physical therapy was something I wanted to do, especially after finding more and more about it, so…

29 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:52.019 Maxwell Camara: I think as we go through the conversation, maybe we can talk more about, you know, who should choose graduate school, maybe PT school specifically.

30 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:58.700 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up choosing it because I really love the exercise component, I wanted more out of,

31 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:08.760 Maxwell Camara: my knowledge base, rather than just being, you know, a personal trainer or an exercise physiologist, I really saw value in helping people heal from these really

32 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.189 Maxwell Camara: Bad, severe conditions,

33 00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:18.640 Maxwell Camara: And then I end up applying, and here we are today, almost done graduating in a couple months here, so…

34 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.800 Christopher Lewis: Did I… did I mess up? Are you already in your third year? Didn't I said you were finishing your second?

35 00:04:27.590 --> 00:04:29.150 Maxwell Camara: I am in my third year, yes.

36 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:30.570 Maxwell Camara: Okay.

37 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:38.719 Christopher Lewis: So, I'm gonna… I'm gonna have to go back and post, and I'll fix that. So, let me just… I'm gonna say something right now that I'm going to then…

38 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:40.779 Christopher Lewis: put back. So…

39 00:04:42.210 --> 00:04:55.559 Christopher Lewis: Max is in his third year of physical therapy school at the University of Michigan, Flint, almost there, almost at the end, and gonna be graduating before we know it, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and to have him share his journey with you.

40 00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:08.420 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things you just said was that you didn't know. You didn't know whether or not physical therapy was really the right place for you. You started in engineering, very different path.

41 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.890 Christopher Lewis: Very different types of courses that you have to take, different way of thinking in that regard as well.

42 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.889 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about… journey for yourself. And…

43 00:05:20.330 --> 00:05:26.009 Christopher Lewis: You mentioned the fact that you really liked some of the sports aspect and the healing aspects.

44 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:30.530 Christopher Lewis: But what was the tipping point for you, where you said to yourself, Yep.

45 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:33.950 Christopher Lewis: I'm going to grad school, I'm doing physical therapy, versus…

46 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:38.199 Christopher Lewis: I'm gonna finish at the Bachelor's, and I'm gonna go and do something else.

47 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.749 Maxwell Camara: I think the tipping point… I decided that if I was gonna do it.

48 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:47.390 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna do it now.

49 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:56.610 Maxwell Camara: And I still, at that point, wasn't sure if it was the right decision. I wouldn't say I knew it was the right decision until probably about…

50 00:05:56.870 --> 00:06:08.189 Maxwell Camara: I would say, like, a year ago, so my second year of physical therapy school, once I had really started to get more involved in our pro bono clinic and finished my first clinical, was when I really knew

51 00:06:08.570 --> 00:06:09.460 Maxwell Camara: So…

52 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:20.379 Maxwell Camara: that tipping point, I don't… I wouldn't say it was necessarily, you know, I knew in undergrad that I was gonna be a physical therapist. I knew that I was gonna give it a try and, you know.

53 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:24.709 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna give it a try and be my best at it, no matter what I did.

54 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:31.480 Maxwell Camara: But I knew I had this theoretical framework of what PT could, like, look like for me.

55 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:43.250 Maxwell Camara: I had really dove into what PT was through the club, talking to a bunch of different schools and therapists, so I had a pretty good idea of what PT could be.

56 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.350 Maxwell Camara: But I still wouldn't say I was… I'm 100% sure.

57 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.790 Maxwell Camara: that PT was the right direction until I was actually in PT school, like, a couple years later.

58 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.049 Christopher Lewis: Now, I know that as you did decide to apply to graduate school.

59 00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:04.930 Christopher Lewis: I'm sure that you went through your own process of trying to figure out

60 00:07:05.210 --> 00:07:19.070 Christopher Lewis: what's the right program, what's the right fit, and where do I want to be? And with physical therapy being as competitive as it is, I'm sure you applied to numerous schools to be able to cover your bases and try to determine

61 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:21.479 Christopher Lewis: Ultimately, where you would end up.

62 00:07:22.030 --> 00:07:25.240 Christopher Lewis: Now, you ended up coming to the University of Michigan, Flint.

63 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:36.910 Christopher Lewis: And I guess I want to go back to that point. Talk to me about that final decision process for yourself, and how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

64 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:44.460 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so when I was applying, I applied to, I think, 6 schools, U of M Flint being one of them.

65 00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:55.709 Maxwell Camara: Obviously I was biased towards U of M Flint, because it had the U of M name. But I also applied to, I believe, 3 or 4 other schools in Michigan, and then 2 out of state.

66 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:59.359 Maxwell Camara: So… I think that gave me more…

67 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:12.479 Maxwell Camara: options to consider, as I was applying and just receiving, decisions through, I think it was December, so you apply around July, August, then you usually know where you're going by December.

68 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:17.400 Maxwell Camara: So… What I was really looking for was a place where I…

69 00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:20.049 Maxwell Camara: I enjoyed the people that were there.

70 00:08:20.210 --> 00:08:22.629 Maxwell Camara: And then I thought I could…

71 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:27.060 Maxwell Camara: Really thrive in terms of… there were a lot of hands-on opportunities.

72 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:44.759 Maxwell Camara: So U of M Flint checked off both those boxes, and when I received the decision, they gave me a call. It was actually one of my mentors, that I ended up working with through my second and third year, and she… she kind of sealed the deal. I didn't receive any sort of call or, like, any sort of…

73 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:50.310 Maxwell Camara: I would say personalized message from any other school. So that kind of really is what sold me.

74 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.440 Maxwell Camara: And then I also was able to visit,

75 00:08:53.630 --> 00:09:05.429 Maxwell Camara: with one of the students that was there at the time, and she kind of took me through the school, introduced me to everybody, I got to meet a lot of the students and actually talk to them. So I think that's what really…

76 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:07.350 Maxwell Camara: Made the decision easier.

77 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:13.489 Maxwell Camara: And then I also considered other things, like the location, so I could live at home and save money.

78 00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:18.170 Maxwell Camara: I considered things like the cost. It was one of the cheapest in the state.

79 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:22.839 Maxwell Camara: And then I could also be more hands-on, so they had a really robust

80 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:34.250 Maxwell Camara: clinical experience within the school that you could work at every Friday, which is something that I end up really taking advantage of, and I think has helped me be very successful in PT school.

81 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:48.289 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the hands-on experience, and you were talking about… we have a clinic called HEART, for those of you that don't know, and it is a pro bono clinic that is run by students, with faculty.

82 00:09:48.420 --> 00:10:00.110 Christopher Lewis: being there as well. Talk to me about that experience for yourself, and why was it so important for you to get involved with it, and why did you continue to stay involved with it throughout your experience at the University of Michigan-Flint?

83 00:10:00.770 --> 00:10:14.420 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I think a lot of students might take… take it for granted, that we have this clinic that has around 40 patients every week that we treat, and that's every week, so a lot of schools, I think, around half.

84 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:21.510 Maxwell Camara: have some sort of clinic that they can work with, but it's not nearly as robust, it's not… it's not weekly, usually.

85 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:37.939 Maxwell Camara: So we really have this cool opportunity to work with patients. And I really got involved, I think it was my first couple weeks, in something called Move More Walking. I just kind of went as that, you know, new student trying to figure out what was happening. A lot was happening, there's a lot of patients, there's paperwork, there's…

86 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:49.109 Maxwell Camara: you know, you're working in groups with these patients with hard conditions to deal with, so most of them had strokes or traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, and you're trying to figure out what's happening, how can I even help?

87 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:58.969 Maxwell Camara: So, eventually by… I believe it was my second or third semester, I talked to Dr. Amy York about potentially becoming a leader of that clinic.

88 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.650 Maxwell Camara: So I went…

89 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:07.519 Maxwell Camara: most of the weeks to… to that class to help these patients out. I really got close to a couple of them.

90 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:11.540 Maxwell Camara: So I decided to take on more of that leadership position.

91 00:11:11.770 --> 00:11:20.599 Maxwell Camara: So I worked with two other guys in my class to help lead this part of the clinic, and we… we really got to dive deep into how the…

92 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:34.590 Maxwell Camara: the treatment works, so how do we standardize the treatment for every patient with new students coming in? So whether it's first year or second years, how can we maximize both the student experience and the patient experience? So that was something we worked on.

93 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:45.930 Maxwell Camara: We also worked on a documentation system that was really easy to use, but also it was helpful in determining what was good for the following week for all the new students.

94 00:11:46.030 --> 00:11:48.809 Maxwell Camara: And then we also worked on research projects, so…

95 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:50.670 Maxwell Camara: one of the ones that I…

96 00:11:50.880 --> 00:12:09.740 Maxwell Camara: lead was called Active Hearts, so we gave all of our stroke patients active, wearable technology, so things like Fitbits or Apple Watches they could wear outside of the clinic. So we could really track and maximize our outcomes with our patients trying to get better.

97 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:18.689 Maxwell Camara: So, a lot of research I was doing, something I never considered doing, something I probably would have said I didn't want to do at the beginning of PT school.

98 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:36.400 Maxwell Camara: But it really opened a lot of doors in terms of meeting people, working on these really cool projects, traveling, presenting, working and mentoring the younger students. And I think that's what really has helped me grow into the PT that I'll become in, like, 14 weeks from now.

99 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:58.650 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, I know that as you go into graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, there's a transition that you make. There's a transition from undergrad and the way that you're taught in your undergraduate experience, and what you experience as a student in graduate school. And you've been able to find success in that journey.

100 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:06.359 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… The things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school.

101 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:14.410 Christopher Lewis: That helped you find success. But also, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

102 00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:25.059 Maxwell Camara: I would say it's definitely a transition from undergrad to graduate school, especially as you're trying to get a doctoral degree. And in undergrad, I was able to…

103 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:29.869 Maxwell Camara: Kind of passed by my classes studying, you know, in the last two weeks before an exam.

104 00:13:30.010 --> 00:13:31.960 Maxwell Camara: That does not work in PT school.

105 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:41.090 Maxwell Camara: So I definitely had to transition into thinking more, you know, it's something you have to do weekly, almost every day, reviewing your stuff.

106 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.450 Maxwell Camara: Trying to be ready for the next day.

107 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:45.410 Maxwell Camara: So, in terms of…

108 00:13:46.010 --> 00:13:52.160 Maxwell Camara: either studying, or homework or projects, I said I would treat it more as a full-time job.

109 00:13:52.350 --> 00:14:00.510 Maxwell Camara: So 40 hours a week, so around half that would be classes, and then the other half would be preparing for the next day, preparing for the week.

110 00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:10.680 Maxwell Camara: doing homework, working on projects, and then once I was at that, you know, 40-ish hours a week, I would… I gave myself other time to do other things, so…

111 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:16.320 Maxwell Camara: Exercising, getting outside, just doing anything else that I enjoyed.

112 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:23.300 Maxwell Camara: So, still finding that balance, but really making sure I put in the specific time to review stuff.

113 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:34.650 Maxwell Camara: In different ways, too, so I would do a lot of whiteboarding in grad school, something I never did in undergrad. So things like drawing out the big ideas, so what's your diagnosis? What sort of…

114 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:48.320 Maxwell Camara: Signs and symptoms are you going to see? What sort of tests are you using? What's the intervention look like? What does the actual person look like? Rather than just memorizing certain facts like you might do in a lot of your classes in undergrad.

115 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.759 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the fact that

116 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:59.050 Christopher Lewis: There's a lot of hats that you wear when you're in graduate school.

117 00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:16.610 Christopher Lewis: Not only are you a student, you're a friend, you're a family member, you are… as I said, you're wearing lots of hats. And as you said earlier, one of the things that you thought of when you thought of looking… working… or when you thought of going to the University of Michigan-Flint was that you could live at home.

118 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:21.020 Christopher Lewis: And then there's that draw from your family of, hey, come on back.

119 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:37.639 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about balance, and how did you find that balance for yourself? What did you have to do to find that balance for yourself, where you were balancing school, work, family, or other personal responsibilities while you were going through this graduate school experience?

120 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:56.290 Maxwell Camara: Balance is hard. It took me a while to figure it out. I would say maybe even two to three semesters in wasn't until I really figured out how to have that balance. So I think it's okay to not really understand, you know, where… how to do it, how to balance jobs and family and school.

121 00:15:56.390 --> 00:16:01.129 Maxwell Camara: But the way I found it was really framing it as that 40-hour work week.

122 00:16:01.310 --> 00:16:10.009 Maxwell Camara: And then making sure I had the routine in place. So something I knew I wanted to always have through PT school was a consistent exercise schedule.

123 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:11.810 Maxwell Camara: So, going to the gym.

124 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:20.950 Maxwell Camara: two to four times a week, and not making any excuses not to go. So that really helps to, you know, reset my mind, and be ready for…

125 00:16:21.060 --> 00:16:23.360 Maxwell Camara: The other hours that I had to put in that day.

126 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:31.409 Maxwell Camara: So just having that routine helped shape that balance. Also having a good support system, so I was able to find some great

127 00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:39.740 Maxwell Camara: friends, and I have good family that were able to support me in terms of, you know, if I'm struggling, I can ask them questions. If they're struggling, I can help them.

128 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:41.169 Maxwell Camara: I also…

129 00:16:41.540 --> 00:16:49.479 Maxwell Camara: you know, can talk to people about other things going on. So just making sure I had that community in place, and then still having…

130 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:56.190 Maxwell Camara: my routine, and then once I had that set, I could build on top of that as I went through school, is what really…

131 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:58.430 Maxwell Camara: Made it a little bit easier.

132 00:17:00.410 --> 00:17:08.460 Christopher Lewis: Now, I talk to graduate students all the time, and as they typically go into graduate school, they're…

133 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:17.739 Christopher Lewis: Many times is that feeling of imposter syndrome that creeps in, that self-doubt that rears its head.

134 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:23.389 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about how that impacted you in graduate school, and how did you handle it?

135 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:35.980 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, I think it's one of those tough subjects where we work really hard to be, you know, the best we can at this job, but there's still that doubt of if we're actually helping anybody.

136 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:41.729 Maxwell Camara: So, I think… I'm lucky, I really love what I do.

137 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.159 Maxwell Camara: Because I've been able to see the change that it makes for people, just as a student.

138 00:17:47.330 --> 00:17:48.320 Maxwell Camara: So…

139 00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:58.239 Maxwell Camara: I'd really encourage anybody going into grad school or PT school to take advantage of these real opportunities in their field. So, for me, it was more…

140 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:03.010 Maxwell Camara: Of those heart opportunities, so doing the research, being in the clinic,

141 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:07.600 Maxwell Camara: That's what really helped me see the big changes for people.

142 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:13.300 Maxwell Camara: So, being able to see the change, plus really putting in the hard work, and really…

143 00:18:13.770 --> 00:18:17.150 Maxwell Camara: Going beyond what was expected of me was…

144 00:18:17.340 --> 00:18:21.390 Maxwell Camara: Kind of helped me get past that idea of imposter syndrome.

145 00:18:21.790 --> 00:18:26.360 Maxwell Camara: You know what, even in the clinic today, as I'm still…

146 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:33.169 Maxwell Camara: trying to graduate, I still have some of those days where it's, you know, starts to creep in and I feel like I'm not really helping them.

147 00:18:33.580 --> 00:18:35.220 Maxwell Camara: And I think the best way that…

148 00:18:35.370 --> 00:18:38.920 Maxwell Camara: I've been able to get over that, is that things just take time.

149 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:46.060 Maxwell Camara: We're only seeing these patients for a really small percentage of their entire week, so there's other things happening.

150 00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:50.930 Maxwell Camara: But if you give it patience and time, and you put in the, you know, your best effort.

151 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:56.920 Maxwell Camara: A lot of the time, you're gonna see these really cool changes, and they're gonna come at the least expected time.

152 00:18:57.360 --> 00:18:59.950 Maxwell Camara: So I think that's what has really helped me with

153 00:19:00.350 --> 00:19:04.239 Maxwell Camara: imposter syndrome and feel like I just can't, or I wouldn't be able to do it.

154 00:19:07.550 --> 00:19:13.149 Christopher Lewis: And one of the things that I know when you go through a program like physical therapy is one of the

155 00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:21.059 Christopher Lewis: One of the things that really allows for you to be able to take everything that you're learning and putting it into

156 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.250 Christopher Lewis: Reality is going out on those clinicals.

157 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.190 Christopher Lewis: And I know you're currently in clinicals right now, in your third year.

158 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:32.600 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… the…

159 00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:40.479 Christopher Lewis: What those clinicals have done for you to be able to help you to see the future that you see for yourself in this profession?

160 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:50.430 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I was pretty intentional with the choices I made for my clinicals. The first one I did was in the hospital.

161 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:53.949 Maxwell Camara: And I'll admit, it wasn't something I was super interested in.

162 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:59.050 Maxwell Camara: Because I know it's a little bit more of a challenger, or a challenging setting.

163 00:19:59.260 --> 00:20:09.950 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up enjoying it more than I thought I would. So just being able to see PT work in all these different settings and different populations is very… it's very cool to see.

164 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:14.430 Maxwell Camara: So I encourage any graduate student to really

165 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:22.510 Maxwell Camara: you know, branch out. So I enjoy orthopedic settings, but I also wanted to see every other setting while I was a student.

166 00:20:22.620 --> 00:20:27.880 Maxwell Camara: to get the best mentoring I could, in this short 9-month period.

167 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:36.070 Maxwell Camara: So I had the hospital setting, I'm at one now that's more of an outpatient neuro setting, then I have one that's a sports setting.

168 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:38.930 Maxwell Camara: And that was set up so that I could keep building.

169 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.820 Maxwell Camara: Off of what… off of the last one.

170 00:20:42.340 --> 00:20:50.710 Maxwell Camara: And really challenged myself with different populations and things that I saw, even if it wasn't something I was necessarily super interested in.

171 00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:55.910 Maxwell Camara: So, setting yourself up for success. So, I did an interview for my last one.

172 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.689 Maxwell Camara: I was able to talk to faculty, And figure out which…

173 00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:14.079 Maxwell Camara: clinicals they thought were… might be better than others, maybe if they had known some of the clinical instructors. So just getting an idea of what would… might work for me before I actually selected these clinicals was very helpful.

174 00:21:14.540 --> 00:21:16.390 Maxwell Camara: And then in terms of after.

175 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:18.580 Maxwell Camara: It just gives you a really big…

176 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:26.879 Maxwell Camara: You know, more experience to draw from as you're either getting a job, looking for jobs, or maybe, you know, starting something on your own.

177 00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:33.230 Maxwell Camara: So, trying the thing, and if you don't like it, move on, but maybe you do like it, and it's just another option for you.

178 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:45.209 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, or business, or something completely different.

179 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.539 Christopher Lewis: And you think back to the experience that you've had.

180 00:21:49.070 --> 00:21:54.890 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

181 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:02.879 Maxwell Camara: That's a tough one, because graduate school's becoming more expensive.

182 00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:07.539 Maxwell Camara: And a lot of the jobs maybe aren't necessarily matching that with salary.

183 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:15.380 Maxwell Camara: So I would say really get involved in undergrad with… if you're thinking about grad school in that, you know, specific field.

184 00:22:15.540 --> 00:22:21.519 Maxwell Camara: So for me, PT, I would join the pre-PT club and learn as much as you can through that club.

185 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:29.809 Maxwell Camara: Maybe if you're thinking of other professions, join the PA club, join the, you know, any sort of medical club, so if you're thinking about med school.

186 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.359 Maxwell Camara: So just learn about as many things as you can while you're an undergrad.

187 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:41.790 Maxwell Camara: shadow all these different settings before you go into PT school, make sure it's something that you think you'd really thrive in before you sign up for it.

188 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:56.379 Maxwell Camara: And talk to the people that are actually doing it. So, maybe that's a student, maybe that's the faculty, and just see, is this, you know, something I would enjoy? Are the students enjoying what they're doing? Is it, you know, could I see myself here in 2 years?

189 00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:14.989 Christopher Lewis: Well, Max, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you as you get ready to finish up here, and the future that it holds for you as well, and I truly wish you all the best.

190 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.509 Maxwell Camara: Great, thanks for having me.