Sign up to save your podcasts
Or
Share From Dropout to Doctorate: Dr. Rita Fields' Inspiring Educational Journey
Share to email
Share to Facebook
Share to X
Share to email
Share to Facebook
Share to X
Or
From Dropout to Doctorate: Dr. Rita Fields' Inspiring Educational Journey
Navigating graduate school isn't a straight line—it's a journey full of turns, challenges, and unexpected lessons. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Rita Fields, a lecturer at the University of Michigan Flint's School of Management, to explore her unconventional, inspiring path through higher education. Whether you're already on your grad school journey, considering taking the leap, or supporting someone who is, this episode is brimming with honesty and actionable wisdom you won't want to miss.
Dr. Rita Fields candidly shares her beginnings as a high school dropout who returned to education, ultimately building a career in human resources and pushing herself to the highest academic levels—including earning a doctorate while juggling executive work and family life. One major theme is perseverance: She discusses the powerful role self-motivation and setting clear boundaries played in her success, especially when life threw unexpected hurdles in her way.
A key takeaway from the episode is the stark contrast between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral studies. Dr. Fields describes graduate school as "straight broth with no water added"—a deep, immersive experience that requires true engagement with your chosen field. Whereas undergraduate education is about finishing what you start and getting well-rounded, graduate studies demand critical analysis and, at the doctoral level, becoming the expert who can teach the topic.
Another highlight is the discussion about burnout and self-doubt. Dr. Fields is refreshingly honest about reaching points where she questioned her ability to go on, and even considered quitting. The key, she says, is being kind to yourself, setting and honoring boundaries, building a support system, and remembering that challenges and stress are inherent in all meaningful pursuits.
Finally, Dr. Fields offers clear advice: take graduate education seriously, resist the urge to just "check the box," and prioritize real learning over simply accumulating credentials. Understand your limits, be honest with yourself about your capacity, and remember—it's okay if your path takes a little longer.
Ready for candid insights, practical tips, and a big dose of inspiration? Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Rita Fields' journey and discover how you, too, can chart your own successful grad school path—even when it gets tough.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. It's really important that you know that this is not a— always a— going to be a linear path. It may be a little bit circuitous. You may end up coming and going and getting different types of educational experiences along the way.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: But hopefully you've done that work to be able to know what your goal is, and you find ways to be able to hit those benchmarks along the way to be able to help you to keep moving toward the goals that you have set for yourself. Every week I love being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that have all had their own experiences in graduate school, And they're here to share that experience with you so that you can build some tools for your toolbox to help you in that journey that you're on. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Rita Fields is with us today. And Dr. Fields is a lecturer for— at the University of Michigan Flint. That basically means she's been teaching classes for a bit and she teaches a number of different areas within our School of Management.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to be able to talk to you about her experiences to have her here on the show this week. Dr. Fields, thanks so much for being here.
Dr. Rita Fields [00:01:38]: You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to talk about your own journey. And I know I love starting the show with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know that you did your bachelor's degree down at Marygrove College in Detroit, and I know that at that time you got a Bachelor of Arts in English and Psychology. And then you went out, you got some experience, and along the way, at some point during that time that you were working, getting different experiences, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point. And what made it the right time, the right place for you to say, now I'm going to go back, I'm going to get that next part of my education? And, and take me back and talk to me about that.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought about that time isolated in the way that you just described. But when I decided to go back for my master's degree, I had a son who was 8, maybe? Somewhere along there? When I got my undergrad degree, he turned 5. And so it was about a couple years later-ish. And I had decided that I really appreciated and loved my undergraduate education at Marygrove, absolutely adored it, and that perhaps I should further myself to open more opportunities up for myself and to learn how far I could advance. At that point, I was already within my chosen field of human resources, and so I decided to go back to school to get a master's in human resources. And I was really grateful to do it. I'd read a lot about the program.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: I understood that there was— and, and came to confirm for myself that there's a huge difference between graduate school and undergrad. So I was really excited to embark on that journey. And it was a— it was good timing for me when I decided to go back.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now, I know you just said that you loved your experience as an undergrad, so that probably played into why you decided to get that master's degree at Marygrove College. Were there any other mitigating factors when you were looking at whether you wanted to go back to Marygrove, which is where you ended up deciding to go, or if you were considering other schools? And if so, what were you looking for in a program that you ultimately then decided on attending?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:13]: So yes, I did decide to stay at Marygrove, and I, I'll be honest, it was really nice. To contemplate getting that advanced degree in an environment that I was always really— always— I was already really comfortable with. So that was a huge selling point for me, that I understood the campus, I understood the way things worked, I knew the services that were available. Because I did have a young child at the time, I also knew that I had the ability to have childcare services if I had evening classes. So there were lots of elements of the campus that were very attractive to me. In terms of the degree program itself, I really wanted a rigorous program that allowed me to delve deeper into the wide expanse of knowledge that is human resources. Human resources is a very broad field, and so I wanted to make sure that I had a program that exposed me to people who were in the field, who were diverse and who would allow me to further my own professional life in such a way that the, the learning of the material would complement my practical application day to day. So I was really fortunate in that way.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:39]: Now, down the road, you finished that degree and then you went and worked some more. You got some other experiences and down the road you said, I'm still not done, I'm going to keep going back. And this time I want to go and get a terminal degree. And I guess bring me back to that point. What was going on in your career? What was going through your head as you were saying to yourself, I'm not done, I want to continue and I want to keep pushing myself forward in this way?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So when I decided to go back for my doctorate, I was well into my career at that time. I was an executive actually, and I worked at Henry Ford Health System., and I was about to accept a position to open on the operational team to open their, their new hospital, which was Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital. So this was a couple— about a year or so before I went into that process. And I have to tell you, this might sound weird, but the reason I decided to go on to get my doctorate is because I just wanted to see what I could do intellectually. I, I'll bet you don't know this, I was a high school dropout. And so I was someone who— I left school the first day of my 12th grade year and I had a very tumultuous experience, but eventually I went back to school and I learned how incredibly important it was for me to maximize my learning potential and that, that helped me to deal with things that happened in my life that I didn't have any control over. But if I could figure out a way to understand it, if I could figure out a way to wrap my mind around how to procedurally advance in my career and to really delve deeply into what the possibilities were in my mind. I know that might sound weird or super nerdy or both, but that's really what initially made me think about it.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: I did take quite a bit of time trying to determine the type of program that I would go into. I knew I did not want a PhD. I know that's— I'm going to get some smoke about that, but I did not want a traditional PhD The thing that drew me to my program was the fact that it was a Doctor of Management, so it's a terminal degree. So it's still a doctorate, but it's not theoretically grounded, it's more grounded in practical application. So I fell in love with the program. I met amazing people. It was a cohort program. It is definitely the most difficult time I've ever had academically.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: It stretched me into intellectually beyond what I thought I was going to be able to do. And at a couple of points in the very beginning and right before I ended my coursework, I wondered if I was gonna be able to do it. It was just so difficult. I have one textbook that I still remember the COVID and the name of the book to this day. I literally read that book 4 times. I still have no idea what it was talking about. But I— so I got that weird thing that I wanted to get where I wanted to sort of see like, what— how far can I push myself intellectually? I definitely solved that question for myself with that doctorate degree.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:06]: So now at every level of education, as you're transitioning into that degree and transitioning through that degree, there are transitions going from being an undergraduate student into a master's degree, a master's degree to a doctorate, the faculty require different things, they expect different things. And as a student, you have to be able to perform, you have to be able to lift yourself up to the level that you're being challenged to be at. So as you are going— as you went through those own— your own transitions for yourself, talk to me about what you had to do as you transitioned into those programs, and what did you have to do— going through the programs to be able to continue and maintain that success throughout the entire journey? And let me put one other caveat on it is because you did two other degrees, how was it different between what you had to do at the master's level and what you had to do at the doctorate level?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: First of all, I always tell my students that there are differences in the levels of education. So when you go into the undergraduate environment, it's it's really about being able to complete what you start, right? I think that's why a lot more people start undergrad degrees than finish them. Like, dramatically more people start than finish. And so merely finishing a multi-year course is really impressive and somewhat rare, unfortunately. I, I wish it were more common, but it is not because you have to go through remaining committed. The undergrad degree experience is normally much more rich with courses that aren't necessarily tied to your major, but they're supposed to round you out a bit. That's the way that I would describe it. Your master's degree is really like a deep, concentrated deep dive.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:55]: So it's like, um, it's like straight broth with no water added. It's just undiluted major. So hopefully you like that major. If not, you're really gonna get irritated really, really quickly. And then the master's degree, I try to explain to my students is like— the difference between that and the undergrad degree is that an undergrad degree, you pretty much have to prove that you can take in information and that you have digested that information and give it back in some form. The master's degree, in my experience, is that you're able to take in information, to digest it, and then perhaps to analyze it from different perspectives. Is there a different way to look at this? Is there anything missing from that? The doctorate degree is at the pinnacle of the learning ladder because you not only have to take in the information, analyze it, resource it, you have to go through some type of a vetting process where you make sure that the doctoral level, uh, or the information that you're learning at the doctoral level, is that valid? You have to determine whether or not you are looking at seminal leaders within your particular field and, and what they said, and is there anything that's missing? So it's having to digest information to a point where you could potentially get to the point— well, not even potentially, but you could get to the point, because once you defend your dissertation, you should be an expert at your topic, where you could teach that topic. And when you are able to fully teach, you are able to show the different complexities and nuances that are really inherent in any topic that you want to explore.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: So I think that— but in terms of your final bit, in terms of how I tried to prepare myself for each level, I think when I went into my master's degree program, I still had the undergraduate mindset. And so I was able to relax a bit because I was— everybody in class was interested in the same master's degree. So there wasn't quite as much diversity in terms of experience. We all sort of worked in the same field. And so it was almost like this really beautiful sense of camaraderie that I got because at the master's level, that's really what that's about. At the doctorate level, it's pretty much like you're on your own. Like, you're— like, let's just say you're this, this— your mom has puppies and the puppies are the other people in your cohort, and she sort of leaves you outside in the storm for like 5 years. That's, that's pretty much what it feels like.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:31]: You have to figure stuff out yourself No one is going to come and check on you. I remember registering for writing semesters for my doctorate and there were no instructors. I just had to pay to write it, which I thought was absolutely insane. The level of support mechanisms start to diminish a bit because you're moving into this space where you should be more self-directed. And by the time you get to your doctoral level, that's also probably why there are people who are ABD for 25 5 years, which is not something to brag about, by the way. The only time it's great is when you're ABD right before you finish it. After that, it's like, oh, you— so you never finished, huh? So it's really, really hard, and you have to be internally motivated. And so it really taught me how to keep myself on pace and to become even more organized and really respect the journey.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I will say that in my own doctorate experience, I will say that if you're in a doctorate program with a cohort for your coursework, those individuals do become a core group and they do tend to push you along through the coursework and support you. It's after you get out of the main coursework and as Dr. Fields was talking about, you get into that writing, there's a lot more self-push that has to happen. Doesn't mean that your cohort doesn't check in every once in a while because sometimes they will and be like, hey, where's everybody? But that being said, it becomes much more on you. And you and your dissertation chair in having a conversation and being able to set benchmarks and make sure that you keep pushing yourself to meet the benchmarks so that you don't remain, as Dr. Field says, ABD. I always say ABD is all but done, and that's true because it's all but dissertation, but ABD also could mean all but done, and you don't want to end up ABD. You want to end up finished with a degree in hand, especially if you're putting the time and effort in.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: Now, One of the things that I hear from a lot of students as they go— are moving into a master's degree, a doctorate degree, as they go through these degrees, is that there is a point in time where they have self-doubt. There's a point in time where they feel, I'm going to say, imposter syndrome, where they may question and say, am I good enough? Should I be here? Why did they select me? Talk to me about how that self-doubt or imposter syndrome crept into your own experiences. In graduate school? And what did you do? And how did you deal with that as you were going through your own programs?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]: I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't experience imposter syndrome. And it could be because when I took the GMAT, which was a requirement for my doctoral program, I passed the writing part within the 5th percentile or something, did really, really well with writing, and I bombed pretty much the rest of the thing. I mean, like, I just totally— and I was like, well, you know, hey, we can't all be perfect at everything. And So I was aware of that from the very beginning. I knew I could write. I knew I was very good at reading and context. And I knew that even though my doctorate was a business degree, my master's was a business degree too, but my doctorate was, was much more intensive in, in the business curriculum. So I knew that if I could get past all of the courses in econ and the other deep strategic courses that were part of my doctoral curriculum that I could write my dissertation.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: So I viewed it from that perspective. So I never felt like I didn't belong there. I always felt like I represented the liberal art faction because both of my undergraduate degrees were in liberal arts. I had written so many papers I'd lost count. So I was very comfortable from that vantage point, but I also had members of my cohort who were diehard practitioners, who had been in the business world for a very long time, who maybe didn't read as many books, but they had very different experiences. Where I think I was most challenged in my degree was towards the end. It was probably right before I wrapped up completing all of my coursework, which for those of you who aren't aware— well, in my program anyway, you had to go go through 2 years of coursework, and then I went through 3 years of writing my dissertation. 3 years, y'all, not 3 months.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:08]: It took 3 full years of writing. But right before I completed my coursework, I was an executive at Henry Ford Health System, and we were opening a hospital, and it was getting really, really tight. There was so much work that goes into that, so many meetings, So many late nights. I happened to be going through a divorce at the same time, which in and of itself is— can be extremely traumatic. It's very tiresome. And I was— I was supposedly wrapping up my coursework, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if I can do this. I think I might have to drop out. And I thought about it for a little while, and then I asked myself, would you be okay with yourself in 5 years if you dropped out now? And I wisely answered to myself that I would not be okay if I did that, and then I was gonna do everything that I could.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: So I had to really double down on my boundary setting. I had to double down on devoting time to study because we had our qualifying exams, which are these major tests that you get during the doctorate. We had them So my coursework was 2 years. I had one set at the end of the first year and one set at the end of the second year, and they were so difficult. I still remember one of the questions, and the answer to the question was 22 pages handwritten in a book. It was insane. If I told you the question, you would get angry about it. Don't— I think about it, it makes me mad.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: But so I had to buckle down, I had to study it. My doctoral program was the first time I ever really had to to study. I know that sounds like a flex, but it's not cool to find out that you don't know how to study when you're in your doctoral program. Um, other than that, I, you know, I read a lot, and I, you know, I was really good at context. So I, I would have to create ways to force myself to retain lots of information in the midst of all of these professional and personal challenges. So that was the time at which I thought I might drop out. I'm so incredibly grateful that I did not. I pushed through, and it is the only B+ on my doctoral transcript, which, you know, I tell students also all the time, you know, people are so into their grades.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: I'm like, look, let me tell you something, grades matter, but sometimes you might have a B+— like, that B+ on my transcript is my proudest grade because I was going to quit and I didn't, and I did the absolute very best I could under incredible circumstances. And I pulled out a B+. So I'm good with it. So that, that would be my— but yes, I'm— it's certainly not unusual to feel those types of challenges. And quite frankly, even though I was in a cohort and it was wonderful, and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that were in my cohort to this day, we also had several people drop out. So that's not exactly motivating when you're sitting with a group of 11 people and then 3 of them say, you know what, this is insane, I'm not doing it. You sort of wonder Are they crazy or am I crazy? I mean, so it was, it was, uh, complicated, but thankfully it worked out in the end.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]: Now I know that you were working while you were going through these type of programs, and that takes a lot of balance in being able to wear the multiple hats that you wear to be able to be there for the people around you, the friends, the family, and more, as well as to be the employee, the student, et cetera. So talk to me about balance, what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance, whatever that definition is, and what were some of the things that you had to do to be able to maintain that throughout your different graduate school experiences?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: Yeah, that's a great question. So I believe very strongly in having boundaries, and I know that's something that a lot of people struggle with. I'm not typically one of those people, and I really learned how to do that in graduate school. When you're— in graduate school and there are so many things, particularly as you get closer to the end. As my students may recall, I often refer to it as senioritis. You think, oh, I'm almost done, like, this is gonna— I'm gonna skate my way through. That's sort of where a lot of people fall off, right? Because they are really close to the end, and you do not want to get that close to the end and then sort of flake out. So I was really good at boundary setting when I graduated with my master's degree is when I got married the first time, and I actually told my fiancé at the time that I was not going to be able to plan our wedding.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: So if he wanted to get married, he could either wait until I got my master's or he could plan it himself. And so he chose B, which was fine with me. I picked the dress and then I showed up. So I think you have to be honest with people in your life that there are a lot of things going on. You have to Have those boundaries. But I also think it's really important to give yourself periods where you just sort of rest and take a break. You can't just plow through everything and assume that you're a robot. It will not happen.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:23]: Your body will literally shut down on you, and you could get really sick. I actually got sick after each of my qualifying exams, like really sick. And so I became much more aware of building for myself a carrot versus carrots stick system, which in the industry basically means something that you like— which is weird because I hate carrots— versus something that you don't like, like the stick, to like, you know, be somewhat punitive. So I would allow myself to enjoy certain things and give myself a break, and then I would get back to work. So I think it's really important to have a support system in your life where people are going to let you know that you're doing well and that you can continue to do but even if no one does say that, I think it's really important for you to understand that for yourself because at the
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: end of the day, you're the one doing the work. You definitely are doing the work and it, it will be challenging as you go through and you'll be pushed in many different ways. And there's times in which you may even have points of burnout where you're, you're chugging along and you're working hard and, and you hit that proverbial wall for yourself. Talk to me about burnout for yourself and how did you avoid burnout or recover from it when you felt overwhelmed?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:44]: Oh yeah, I definitely experienced burnout. I'm pretty good at managing boundaries, but being able to manage boundaries doesn't inoculate you from having to feel the effects of stress. So I crashed a couple times. I remember at one point during— I'm— the most difficult, well, during my master's degree, I actually had to take a year off from my master's degree because a member of my family had a mental mental health crisis that was incredibly serious, and I was the person that had to manage it, and I simply could not balance everything. So I actually did have to step away. I did come back, but that was very significant because typically master's degrees are 2 years, so that's a long time. And for my doctorate degree, I didn't drop out, but because I had so many things going on, I remember I ended up— I don't want to scare anybody, but I ended up in the the emergency room once. I lost hair.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:48]: I would sit and my hands would be shaking like I was on a roller coaster ride. I was deeply stressed. And as much as it was uncomfortable, obviously, what I learned from that was how deeply connected my mental state was to my physical state. And that even if in my mind I could write off sort of dealing with things— I had a very high tolerance for the machinations of life— I really still had to take care of my body. I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure that I slept. I had to make sure that I tried to nurture myself as much as possible. I, I don't know if it's possible to avoid burnout in any situation that is worth having.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: —right? And so if you think of eustress versus stress, which some have characterized as positive stress, if you get married, you're going to be burnt out. If you have kids, you're going to be burnt out. If you have a dog, you're going to get burnt out. So it makes sense that the things worth having also have an accompanying amount of stress associated with it. I think being kind to yourself and really dedicating yourself towards recovery is the
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: key to get past it. It is hard, and I'm not saying that to scare anyone off from grad school. There are going to be times that are going to be harder than others, but in anything that is worth doing, there will be times that will be harder than others, whether that's education, your work, your family, your friends, you know, no matter what, as you go through life, you know this, and it is definitely going to be the case in grad school as well. Now, I guess Dr. Fields, as you think back to your graduate experience and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school and you think about success and things that they can do to be successful, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]: I think take it seriously. You really need to take it seriously. I am not an advocate of check the box degree accumulation. You want to learn. And as I often also say to my students, I had a dear, cherished professor who said to me once that learning is the attachment of meaning to otherwise useless information. And so that has never failed in being true in my life. And so it's really important to understand that you are supposed to learn this information, um, and that that will help you. It, it will not help you if you don't do that.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: And there's so many different ways that people try to cut corners that they just try to push past the learning experience. I can tell you as someone who has hired literally thousands of people in my career, people who are differentiated in the work environment are people who are conscientious about what they do. And so if you apply that to your learning, you can only benefit from that. I am an educated person, not just because I have degrees on the wall, but because I learned the material and that, that exercise of learning, it's one of the most valuable things that I have. And so I would encourage people to do that. I know that might sound very basic, but that is pretty clutch. The other thing that I would do is encourage you to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I think sometimes people take a lot of classes and they really shouldn't take a lot of classes in that particular term because they've got a lot of stuff going on, and it doesn't go well.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:32]: And you— one could assume that it's not gonna go well if you have like a newborn baby and you decide to take 7 classes. Those things don't tend to mix. So think through what you're capable of doing, and if it takes you a little bit longer, then it takes you a little bit longer. When I was in undergrad, you know, I got my degree in 4 years, my undergrad degree, and that was like the standard. Now I hear that it's 5 to 6 or more, right? I mean, that's for undergrad degree, let alone master's degrees or, or doctoral degrees. And so I think you have to be kind to yourself because being kind to yourself in terms of your true time commitment will make the learning experience an easier, more beneficial one for you as well.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:15]: Well, Dr. Fields, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing your pieces of advice and everything that shared with our listeners today. I know that this journey, like I said, is not a circu— it's a circuitous path. It is not a straight line. And as you said in yours, you definitely had some curves along the way, but you made it and you were successful. And I appreciate you sharing that journey with us and for helping others to be able to maneuver that path for themselves.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]: And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and go blue.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].
View all episodes
By Dr. Christopher LewisNavigating graduate school isn't a straight line—it's a journey full of turns, challenges, and unexpected lessons. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Rita Fields, a lecturer at the University of Michigan Flint's School of Management, to explore her unconventional, inspiring path through higher education. Whether you're already on your grad school journey, considering taking the leap, or supporting someone who is, this episode is brimming with honesty and actionable wisdom you won't want to miss.
Dr. Rita Fields candidly shares her beginnings as a high school dropout who returned to education, ultimately building a career in human resources and pushing herself to the highest academic levels—including earning a doctorate while juggling executive work and family life. One major theme is perseverance: She discusses the powerful role self-motivation and setting clear boundaries played in her success, especially when life threw unexpected hurdles in her way.
A key takeaway from the episode is the stark contrast between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral studies. Dr. Fields describes graduate school as "straight broth with no water added"—a deep, immersive experience that requires true engagement with your chosen field. Whereas undergraduate education is about finishing what you start and getting well-rounded, graduate studies demand critical analysis and, at the doctoral level, becoming the expert who can teach the topic.
Another highlight is the discussion about burnout and self-doubt. Dr. Fields is refreshingly honest about reaching points where she questioned her ability to go on, and even considered quitting. The key, she says, is being kind to yourself, setting and honoring boundaries, building a support system, and remembering that challenges and stress are inherent in all meaningful pursuits.
Finally, Dr. Fields offers clear advice: take graduate education seriously, resist the urge to just "check the box," and prioritize real learning over simply accumulating credentials. Understand your limits, be honest with yourself about your capacity, and remember—it's okay if your path takes a little longer.
Ready for candid insights, practical tips, and a big dose of inspiration? Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Rita Fields' journey and discover how you, too, can chart your own successful grad school path—even when it gets tough.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. It's really important that you know that this is not a— always a— going to be a linear path. It may be a little bit circuitous. You may end up coming and going and getting different types of educational experiences along the way.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: But hopefully you've done that work to be able to know what your goal is, and you find ways to be able to hit those benchmarks along the way to be able to help you to keep moving toward the goals that you have set for yourself. Every week I love being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that have all had their own experiences in graduate school, And they're here to share that experience with you so that you can build some tools for your toolbox to help you in that journey that you're on. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Rita Fields is with us today. And Dr. Fields is a lecturer for— at the University of Michigan Flint. That basically means she's been teaching classes for a bit and she teaches a number of different areas within our School of Management.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to be able to talk to you about her experiences to have her here on the show this week. Dr. Fields, thanks so much for being here.
Dr. Rita Fields [00:01:38]: You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to talk about your own journey. And I know I love starting the show with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know that you did your bachelor's degree down at Marygrove College in Detroit, and I know that at that time you got a Bachelor of Arts in English and Psychology. And then you went out, you got some experience, and along the way, at some point during that time that you were working, getting different experiences, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point. And what made it the right time, the right place for you to say, now I'm going to go back, I'm going to get that next part of my education? And, and take me back and talk to me about that.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought about that time isolated in the way that you just described. But when I decided to go back for my master's degree, I had a son who was 8, maybe? Somewhere along there? When I got my undergrad degree, he turned 5. And so it was about a couple years later-ish. And I had decided that I really appreciated and loved my undergraduate education at Marygrove, absolutely adored it, and that perhaps I should further myself to open more opportunities up for myself and to learn how far I could advance. At that point, I was already within my chosen field of human resources, and so I decided to go back to school to get a master's in human resources. And I was really grateful to do it. I'd read a lot about the program.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: I understood that there was— and, and came to confirm for myself that there's a huge difference between graduate school and undergrad. So I was really excited to embark on that journey. And it was a— it was good timing for me when I decided to go back.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now, I know you just said that you loved your experience as an undergrad, so that probably played into why you decided to get that master's degree at Marygrove College. Were there any other mitigating factors when you were looking at whether you wanted to go back to Marygrove, which is where you ended up deciding to go, or if you were considering other schools? And if so, what were you looking for in a program that you ultimately then decided on attending?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:13]: So yes, I did decide to stay at Marygrove, and I, I'll be honest, it was really nice. To contemplate getting that advanced degree in an environment that I was always really— always— I was already really comfortable with. So that was a huge selling point for me, that I understood the campus, I understood the way things worked, I knew the services that were available. Because I did have a young child at the time, I also knew that I had the ability to have childcare services if I had evening classes. So there were lots of elements of the campus that were very attractive to me. In terms of the degree program itself, I really wanted a rigorous program that allowed me to delve deeper into the wide expanse of knowledge that is human resources. Human resources is a very broad field, and so I wanted to make sure that I had a program that exposed me to people who were in the field, who were diverse and who would allow me to further my own professional life in such a way that the, the learning of the material would complement my practical application day to day. So I was really fortunate in that way.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:39]: Now, down the road, you finished that degree and then you went and worked some more. You got some other experiences and down the road you said, I'm still not done, I'm going to keep going back. And this time I want to go and get a terminal degree. And I guess bring me back to that point. What was going on in your career? What was going through your head as you were saying to yourself, I'm not done, I want to continue and I want to keep pushing myself forward in this way?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So when I decided to go back for my doctorate, I was well into my career at that time. I was an executive actually, and I worked at Henry Ford Health System., and I was about to accept a position to open on the operational team to open their, their new hospital, which was Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital. So this was a couple— about a year or so before I went into that process. And I have to tell you, this might sound weird, but the reason I decided to go on to get my doctorate is because I just wanted to see what I could do intellectually. I, I'll bet you don't know this, I was a high school dropout. And so I was someone who— I left school the first day of my 12th grade year and I had a very tumultuous experience, but eventually I went back to school and I learned how incredibly important it was for me to maximize my learning potential and that, that helped me to deal with things that happened in my life that I didn't have any control over. But if I could figure out a way to understand it, if I could figure out a way to wrap my mind around how to procedurally advance in my career and to really delve deeply into what the possibilities were in my mind. I know that might sound weird or super nerdy or both, but that's really what initially made me think about it.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: I did take quite a bit of time trying to determine the type of program that I would go into. I knew I did not want a PhD. I know that's— I'm going to get some smoke about that, but I did not want a traditional PhD The thing that drew me to my program was the fact that it was a Doctor of Management, so it's a terminal degree. So it's still a doctorate, but it's not theoretically grounded, it's more grounded in practical application. So I fell in love with the program. I met amazing people. It was a cohort program. It is definitely the most difficult time I've ever had academically.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: It stretched me into intellectually beyond what I thought I was going to be able to do. And at a couple of points in the very beginning and right before I ended my coursework, I wondered if I was gonna be able to do it. It was just so difficult. I have one textbook that I still remember the COVID and the name of the book to this day. I literally read that book 4 times. I still have no idea what it was talking about. But I— so I got that weird thing that I wanted to get where I wanted to sort of see like, what— how far can I push myself intellectually? I definitely solved that question for myself with that doctorate degree.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:06]: So now at every level of education, as you're transitioning into that degree and transitioning through that degree, there are transitions going from being an undergraduate student into a master's degree, a master's degree to a doctorate, the faculty require different things, they expect different things. And as a student, you have to be able to perform, you have to be able to lift yourself up to the level that you're being challenged to be at. So as you are going— as you went through those own— your own transitions for yourself, talk to me about what you had to do as you transitioned into those programs, and what did you have to do— going through the programs to be able to continue and maintain that success throughout the entire journey? And let me put one other caveat on it is because you did two other degrees, how was it different between what you had to do at the master's level and what you had to do at the doctorate level?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: First of all, I always tell my students that there are differences in the levels of education. So when you go into the undergraduate environment, it's it's really about being able to complete what you start, right? I think that's why a lot more people start undergrad degrees than finish them. Like, dramatically more people start than finish. And so merely finishing a multi-year course is really impressive and somewhat rare, unfortunately. I, I wish it were more common, but it is not because you have to go through remaining committed. The undergrad degree experience is normally much more rich with courses that aren't necessarily tied to your major, but they're supposed to round you out a bit. That's the way that I would describe it. Your master's degree is really like a deep, concentrated deep dive.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:55]: So it's like, um, it's like straight broth with no water added. It's just undiluted major. So hopefully you like that major. If not, you're really gonna get irritated really, really quickly. And then the master's degree, I try to explain to my students is like— the difference between that and the undergrad degree is that an undergrad degree, you pretty much have to prove that you can take in information and that you have digested that information and give it back in some form. The master's degree, in my experience, is that you're able to take in information, to digest it, and then perhaps to analyze it from different perspectives. Is there a different way to look at this? Is there anything missing from that? The doctorate degree is at the pinnacle of the learning ladder because you not only have to take in the information, analyze it, resource it, you have to go through some type of a vetting process where you make sure that the doctoral level, uh, or the information that you're learning at the doctoral level, is that valid? You have to determine whether or not you are looking at seminal leaders within your particular field and, and what they said, and is there anything that's missing? So it's having to digest information to a point where you could potentially get to the point— well, not even potentially, but you could get to the point, because once you defend your dissertation, you should be an expert at your topic, where you could teach that topic. And when you are able to fully teach, you are able to show the different complexities and nuances that are really inherent in any topic that you want to explore.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: So I think that— but in terms of your final bit, in terms of how I tried to prepare myself for each level, I think when I went into my master's degree program, I still had the undergraduate mindset. And so I was able to relax a bit because I was— everybody in class was interested in the same master's degree. So there wasn't quite as much diversity in terms of experience. We all sort of worked in the same field. And so it was almost like this really beautiful sense of camaraderie that I got because at the master's level, that's really what that's about. At the doctorate level, it's pretty much like you're on your own. Like, you're— like, let's just say you're this, this— your mom has puppies and the puppies are the other people in your cohort, and she sort of leaves you outside in the storm for like 5 years. That's, that's pretty much what it feels like.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:31]: You have to figure stuff out yourself No one is going to come and check on you. I remember registering for writing semesters for my doctorate and there were no instructors. I just had to pay to write it, which I thought was absolutely insane. The level of support mechanisms start to diminish a bit because you're moving into this space where you should be more self-directed. And by the time you get to your doctoral level, that's also probably why there are people who are ABD for 25 5 years, which is not something to brag about, by the way. The only time it's great is when you're ABD right before you finish it. After that, it's like, oh, you— so you never finished, huh? So it's really, really hard, and you have to be internally motivated. And so it really taught me how to keep myself on pace and to become even more organized and really respect the journey.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I will say that in my own doctorate experience, I will say that if you're in a doctorate program with a cohort for your coursework, those individuals do become a core group and they do tend to push you along through the coursework and support you. It's after you get out of the main coursework and as Dr. Fields was talking about, you get into that writing, there's a lot more self-push that has to happen. Doesn't mean that your cohort doesn't check in every once in a while because sometimes they will and be like, hey, where's everybody? But that being said, it becomes much more on you. And you and your dissertation chair in having a conversation and being able to set benchmarks and make sure that you keep pushing yourself to meet the benchmarks so that you don't remain, as Dr. Field says, ABD. I always say ABD is all but done, and that's true because it's all but dissertation, but ABD also could mean all but done, and you don't want to end up ABD. You want to end up finished with a degree in hand, especially if you're putting the time and effort in.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: Now, One of the things that I hear from a lot of students as they go— are moving into a master's degree, a doctorate degree, as they go through these degrees, is that there is a point in time where they have self-doubt. There's a point in time where they feel, I'm going to say, imposter syndrome, where they may question and say, am I good enough? Should I be here? Why did they select me? Talk to me about how that self-doubt or imposter syndrome crept into your own experiences. In graduate school? And what did you do? And how did you deal with that as you were going through your own programs?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]: I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't experience imposter syndrome. And it could be because when I took the GMAT, which was a requirement for my doctoral program, I passed the writing part within the 5th percentile or something, did really, really well with writing, and I bombed pretty much the rest of the thing. I mean, like, I just totally— and I was like, well, you know, hey, we can't all be perfect at everything. And So I was aware of that from the very beginning. I knew I could write. I knew I was very good at reading and context. And I knew that even though my doctorate was a business degree, my master's was a business degree too, but my doctorate was, was much more intensive in, in the business curriculum. So I knew that if I could get past all of the courses in econ and the other deep strategic courses that were part of my doctoral curriculum that I could write my dissertation.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: So I viewed it from that perspective. So I never felt like I didn't belong there. I always felt like I represented the liberal art faction because both of my undergraduate degrees were in liberal arts. I had written so many papers I'd lost count. So I was very comfortable from that vantage point, but I also had members of my cohort who were diehard practitioners, who had been in the business world for a very long time, who maybe didn't read as many books, but they had very different experiences. Where I think I was most challenged in my degree was towards the end. It was probably right before I wrapped up completing all of my coursework, which for those of you who aren't aware— well, in my program anyway, you had to go go through 2 years of coursework, and then I went through 3 years of writing my dissertation. 3 years, y'all, not 3 months.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:08]: It took 3 full years of writing. But right before I completed my coursework, I was an executive at Henry Ford Health System, and we were opening a hospital, and it was getting really, really tight. There was so much work that goes into that, so many meetings, So many late nights. I happened to be going through a divorce at the same time, which in and of itself is— can be extremely traumatic. It's very tiresome. And I was— I was supposedly wrapping up my coursework, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if I can do this. I think I might have to drop out. And I thought about it for a little while, and then I asked myself, would you be okay with yourself in 5 years if you dropped out now? And I wisely answered to myself that I would not be okay if I did that, and then I was gonna do everything that I could.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: So I had to really double down on my boundary setting. I had to double down on devoting time to study because we had our qualifying exams, which are these major tests that you get during the doctorate. We had them So my coursework was 2 years. I had one set at the end of the first year and one set at the end of the second year, and they were so difficult. I still remember one of the questions, and the answer to the question was 22 pages handwritten in a book. It was insane. If I told you the question, you would get angry about it. Don't— I think about it, it makes me mad.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: But so I had to buckle down, I had to study it. My doctoral program was the first time I ever really had to to study. I know that sounds like a flex, but it's not cool to find out that you don't know how to study when you're in your doctoral program. Um, other than that, I, you know, I read a lot, and I, you know, I was really good at context. So I, I would have to create ways to force myself to retain lots of information in the midst of all of these professional and personal challenges. So that was the time at which I thought I might drop out. I'm so incredibly grateful that I did not. I pushed through, and it is the only B+ on my doctoral transcript, which, you know, I tell students also all the time, you know, people are so into their grades.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: I'm like, look, let me tell you something, grades matter, but sometimes you might have a B+— like, that B+ on my transcript is my proudest grade because I was going to quit and I didn't, and I did the absolute very best I could under incredible circumstances. And I pulled out a B+. So I'm good with it. So that, that would be my— but yes, I'm— it's certainly not unusual to feel those types of challenges. And quite frankly, even though I was in a cohort and it was wonderful, and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that were in my cohort to this day, we also had several people drop out. So that's not exactly motivating when you're sitting with a group of 11 people and then 3 of them say, you know what, this is insane, I'm not doing it. You sort of wonder Are they crazy or am I crazy? I mean, so it was, it was, uh, complicated, but thankfully it worked out in the end.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]: Now I know that you were working while you were going through these type of programs, and that takes a lot of balance in being able to wear the multiple hats that you wear to be able to be there for the people around you, the friends, the family, and more, as well as to be the employee, the student, et cetera. So talk to me about balance, what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance, whatever that definition is, and what were some of the things that you had to do to be able to maintain that throughout your different graduate school experiences?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: Yeah, that's a great question. So I believe very strongly in having boundaries, and I know that's something that a lot of people struggle with. I'm not typically one of those people, and I really learned how to do that in graduate school. When you're— in graduate school and there are so many things, particularly as you get closer to the end. As my students may recall, I often refer to it as senioritis. You think, oh, I'm almost done, like, this is gonna— I'm gonna skate my way through. That's sort of where a lot of people fall off, right? Because they are really close to the end, and you do not want to get that close to the end and then sort of flake out. So I was really good at boundary setting when I graduated with my master's degree is when I got married the first time, and I actually told my fiancé at the time that I was not going to be able to plan our wedding.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: So if he wanted to get married, he could either wait until I got my master's or he could plan it himself. And so he chose B, which was fine with me. I picked the dress and then I showed up. So I think you have to be honest with people in your life that there are a lot of things going on. You have to Have those boundaries. But I also think it's really important to give yourself periods where you just sort of rest and take a break. You can't just plow through everything and assume that you're a robot. It will not happen.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:23]: Your body will literally shut down on you, and you could get really sick. I actually got sick after each of my qualifying exams, like really sick. And so I became much more aware of building for myself a carrot versus carrots stick system, which in the industry basically means something that you like— which is weird because I hate carrots— versus something that you don't like, like the stick, to like, you know, be somewhat punitive. So I would allow myself to enjoy certain things and give myself a break, and then I would get back to work. So I think it's really important to have a support system in your life where people are going to let you know that you're doing well and that you can continue to do but even if no one does say that, I think it's really important for you to understand that for yourself because at the
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: end of the day, you're the one doing the work. You definitely are doing the work and it, it will be challenging as you go through and you'll be pushed in many different ways. And there's times in which you may even have points of burnout where you're, you're chugging along and you're working hard and, and you hit that proverbial wall for yourself. Talk to me about burnout for yourself and how did you avoid burnout or recover from it when you felt overwhelmed?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:44]: Oh yeah, I definitely experienced burnout. I'm pretty good at managing boundaries, but being able to manage boundaries doesn't inoculate you from having to feel the effects of stress. So I crashed a couple times. I remember at one point during— I'm— the most difficult, well, during my master's degree, I actually had to take a year off from my master's degree because a member of my family had a mental mental health crisis that was incredibly serious, and I was the person that had to manage it, and I simply could not balance everything. So I actually did have to step away. I did come back, but that was very significant because typically master's degrees are 2 years, so that's a long time. And for my doctorate degree, I didn't drop out, but because I had so many things going on, I remember I ended up— I don't want to scare anybody, but I ended up in the the emergency room once. I lost hair.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:48]: I would sit and my hands would be shaking like I was on a roller coaster ride. I was deeply stressed. And as much as it was uncomfortable, obviously, what I learned from that was how deeply connected my mental state was to my physical state. And that even if in my mind I could write off sort of dealing with things— I had a very high tolerance for the machinations of life— I really still had to take care of my body. I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure that I slept. I had to make sure that I tried to nurture myself as much as possible. I, I don't know if it's possible to avoid burnout in any situation that is worth having.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: —right? And so if you think of eustress versus stress, which some have characterized as positive stress, if you get married, you're going to be burnt out. If you have kids, you're going to be burnt out. If you have a dog, you're going to get burnt out. So it makes sense that the things worth having also have an accompanying amount of stress associated with it. I think being kind to yourself and really dedicating yourself towards recovery is the
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: key to get past it. It is hard, and I'm not saying that to scare anyone off from grad school. There are going to be times that are going to be harder than others, but in anything that is worth doing, there will be times that will be harder than others, whether that's education, your work, your family, your friends, you know, no matter what, as you go through life, you know this, and it is definitely going to be the case in grad school as well. Now, I guess Dr. Fields, as you think back to your graduate experience and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school and you think about success and things that they can do to be successful, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]: I think take it seriously. You really need to take it seriously. I am not an advocate of check the box degree accumulation. You want to learn. And as I often also say to my students, I had a dear, cherished professor who said to me once that learning is the attachment of meaning to otherwise useless information. And so that has never failed in being true in my life. And so it's really important to understand that you are supposed to learn this information, um, and that that will help you. It, it will not help you if you don't do that.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: And there's so many different ways that people try to cut corners that they just try to push past the learning experience. I can tell you as someone who has hired literally thousands of people in my career, people who are differentiated in the work environment are people who are conscientious about what they do. And so if you apply that to your learning, you can only benefit from that. I am an educated person, not just because I have degrees on the wall, but because I learned the material and that, that exercise of learning, it's one of the most valuable things that I have. And so I would encourage people to do that. I know that might sound very basic, but that is pretty clutch. The other thing that I would do is encourage you to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I think sometimes people take a lot of classes and they really shouldn't take a lot of classes in that particular term because they've got a lot of stuff going on, and it doesn't go well.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:32]: And you— one could assume that it's not gonna go well if you have like a newborn baby and you decide to take 7 classes. Those things don't tend to mix. So think through what you're capable of doing, and if it takes you a little bit longer, then it takes you a little bit longer. When I was in undergrad, you know, I got my degree in 4 years, my undergrad degree, and that was like the standard. Now I hear that it's 5 to 6 or more, right? I mean, that's for undergrad degree, let alone master's degrees or, or doctoral degrees. And so I think you have to be kind to yourself because being kind to yourself in terms of your true time commitment will make the learning experience an easier, more beneficial one for you as well.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:15]: Well, Dr. Fields, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing your pieces of advice and everything that shared with our listeners today. I know that this journey, like I said, is not a circu— it's a circuitous path. It is not a straight line. And as you said in yours, you definitely had some curves along the way, but you made it and you were successful. And I appreciate you sharing that journey with us and for helping others to be able to maneuver that path for themselves.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]: And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and go blue.
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].