Encouraging Abilities Podcast

The City of Vancouver is making strides with its Accessibility Strategy. DDA chats with the city's Accessibility Planner, Karen Lai who offers perspectives from her lived experiences.

TRANSCRIPT

Changing Attitudes One Street at a Time

00:06

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Developmental Disabilities Association's Encouraging Abilities podcast. I am your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Joining me today is the City of Vancouver's Accessibility Planner, Karen Lye. Karen has worked in accessibility and inclusion consultation for over 20 years.

00:25

Now as someone with cerebral palsy, Karen brings a lived experience to her work and an understanding of the limitations that society places on people with disabilities. She has previously done work which helped some people with disabilities integrate into workplaces. She runs her own consulting firm where she ran workshops and developed budgets for inclusion initiatives and worked with many non-profits to improve their accessibility. She holds a master's degree in human kinetics from UBC

00:55

2020 award by the YWCA of Metro Vancouver. So thanks for joining me today, Karen. Thank you for the invitation. Now, we'll get to inclusion and accessibility in a moment, but tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah. Thank you. I was born and raised in Vancouver and I

01:21

have been doing much work in improving accessibility. That's what I do for work. But at the same time, I am very...

01:41

hanging out in the outdoors with my friends and going the long bike ride with my bike. But yeah, I've been in the field of inclusion and accessibility for well over 20 years, and I'm continually learning about this area.

02:11

So in sort of in a nutshell, Karen, what does accessibility mean to you? Well, accessibility means to me, it's more than the built environment. It's that once you get in the door, are you able to feel like your decisions matter? Like do you have a role in the decision making?

02:39

Do you have a role in the workplace? Is it more than just physically getting in the door? It's...

02:52

It's getting you what role to play in the larger game of community. Yeah, that's just it. I mean, it's it's, you know, that whole thing. Nothing about us without us, you know, making sure that that anything that is created accessible is created from those with disabilities, their point of view.

03:21

Right, right. And it's also about do you feel valued? Do you feel belong? And it's not just about your own physical space. It's also do you have an opportunity to go in other people's houses, but closer and closer. So, um, it's also

03:51

and accessibility from a community perspective, not just at the places where you move around, but do you have the ability to go over to a friend's place or whatever, because those need to be accessible as well.

04:18

Yeah, like everything. And you know, I've been talking a lot about accessibility with with other people on this podcast and how even businesses need to be more accessible because if you can't get people into your store, you're not selling as much as you can. There's a huge motivation for businesses just by themselves to be accessible to everyone. Totally. Yeah.

04:47

I agree. Now, I took a little line from your LinkedIn page. You say inclusion is a two way street. Can you expand on that a little bit? Yeah, I think we all have a role to play in advocating. The one individual that knows me the best.

05:16

is myself. Though I have a role to play in telling others what kind of needs I have, what support I need, how do you work with me, though that's my role. And if the other people's role is to create a culture of

05:43

welcomeness. You allow me to tell you what I need. There is a two-way street in that we both need to work together to create an environment where we all can work well together, though we both have a role to play.

06:09

And how do you think that conversation is going over the, you know, when you look back on your life and what you've managed to accomplish, to accomplish in spite of a disability, do you think that conversation, you know, with people like me who don't identify with a disability, do you think that conversation is getting better? Do you think the messages are getting out there? Do you think the support is improving?

06:35

I think as a body, physical activity, physical sensibility, it's relatively well. It's not perfect. But I think we have a long way to go in terms of attitude, in terms of accepting the culture. It is.

07:04

about shifting the culture, slowing down your peace. We live in such a fat, big world. And in slowing down and really building that relationship, and really getting to know people and connecting with people. Yeah, I think it's...

07:34

It's growing, it's increasing in small increments. And it also depends on the person as well. We're all human beings with so much complexity to each individual. We carry so many complex identities.

08:02

And it changes from people to people. Now going back, you did your studies in human kinetics, and you've got a master's in that from UBC. How did that alter the way you view your own disability?

08:20

Um, I think it advanced this because I really thought, uh, before I did my master's, I really struggled with the word inclusion and what it means to feel included. And, um, I, I really believed that inclusion was about

08:50

putting everyone in one room, no matter what their disability is, and just building a program from that, from one room. But because we, because in this best, I learned from my master's,

09:13

about intersectionality and how we're so complex beings that putting everyone in one room is not inclusive. Because how can you have one program that meets every person's needs?

09:43

and not but the book that i would want program meeting and but the uh... no i think included and they're very happy in did that uh... i'm and that that included in that map long contract then what

10:12

in and around that does make that a much, much more complex thing. But you know, sort of going back to accessibility, which is, you know, what you like to talk about is the idea of...

10:26

universal design. Now you just mentioned that inclusion can be a very individual thing. If we're talking about accessibility, do you think universal design is really possible or can we just only hope to get as close as we can?

10:45

I think there's so much more work that can be done, but that's just a baseline. Universal Design, I don't think... I mean, what is an accessible city? I don't even know what that means, because...

11:09

And acceptable study can mean one thing to me and one thing to a different person. So I think a universal design is a good goal to reach too, and then we need to do more. So we should be a little bit realistic about that, I guess. Yes, yes, absolutely.

11:37

Now I want to ask you something else before we start getting into you know your work with the city is I don't know what is it adventure therapy and what does it offer that other kinds of therapies don't. And then the power of the outdoor. So what what one could then learn from being on a outdoor trip.

12:06

There's so much I used to do with adaptive kayaking, adaptive skiing, where people with disabilities or other ones can gain confidence by being in the outdoors. There's something better about being in the outdoors.

12:36

where you learn new skills and you learn how to create new opportunities. Just from being creative and working beyond their box. And you learn, you always learn something new from being in the outdoors.

13:04

and with each other. So that's what a best friend film would be me.

13:13

And you find that more, you know, for someone with a disability, is that a more effective therapy than other things you've done? It definitely did... did one thing for my life. I won't be the other people's life. It definitely brought out...

13:42

new perspective of how I defined my own disability and how I determined new ways of learning about myself and about my own disability with the power of the outdoors.

14:08

Sounds good. That sounds really good. I think we see a lot of different.

14:14

things now in the outdoors and it's just so nice to see even the outdoors, not just buildings we build that are becoming more inclusive for everybody. But now switching to the City of Vancouver where you find yourself, like a number of other municipalities across Canada right now, they're developing accessibility strategies. DDA, we've got a member of our staff who's involved in Vancouver's consultation process. The strategy, as I understand, is now in its second stage.

14:43

So tell me how and why this whole accessibility strategy came about. Well, so firstly, the provincial BV government passed the Accessible BV Act back in 2021.

15:07

where it mandated all of the prescribed organizations, meaning municipalities, to meet three requirements. Do you have an accessibility plan? Do you have an

15:35

Vancouver was one of the first municipalities to start inventability conservation way before the Inventable BC Act came into place. It was directed from council in 2018.

16:01

to develop an accessibility strategy. And it's also mandated as to put together an accessibility task force. And it is made up of people with lived experience with from

16:28

two of council committees and then the task force would guide the development of the accessibility

16:56

We developed the Phase 1 of the accessibility strategy, and now we're working on Phase 2. So what was the goal of Phase 1?

17:13

do highlight eight different focus areas and also do create a comprehensive citywide accessibility

17:44

You look at the built environment, housing, communication from an accessibility lens. It was divided into eight different focus areas and they range from built environment, transportation, housing, information and communication.

18:12

employment, government and engagement, capacity and collaboration, and then advocacy and working with other orders of government along with other agencies. So those are the eight different focus

18:43

um, game with high level access to the item to increase accessibility. Now, is that mainly to provide, um, guidelines for, for, um, city staff and city infrastructure, or is it really to make sure that, that we've got bricks and mortar and, and making physical changes to things?

19:13

Is it really both? And then faith do is kind of building the multi-year action plan. So we don't really know how, what are the details of each action item. And that will come later on in the faith. But mainly it's a guide of where they...

19:40

where departments are working towards, he increased accessibility in the city of Vancouver. Now, you know, even just going back a little bit, I know you're working on this accessibility strategy, parts one and two. Where do you see room for improvement in the city of Vancouver's approach to accessibility?

20:08

I've been, you know, city of Vancouver and we have done so many things to increase visibility, but at the same time, we have a long way to go. And it's creating that consciousness of automatically thinking about people with disabilities.

20:38

and how we do our engagement, how we do our design of buildings, how we design blubber

21:03

Now, so I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of this just comes down to prevailing attitudes about people with developmental or disabilities of any kind really, that somehow they're less, that they're not worthy of taking these things into current consideration. Would you say that's correct?

21:23

It depends on the people, you know, and yes, I think we have a long way to go in attitudes and changing the narrative of people with disabilities, but we have done a lot in terms of...

21:46

I think we have a new back training of disability awareness. We are getting there, but we have a long way to go. Now, say the city of Vancouver granted you an unlimited budget and total creative control. What's a dream project you would love to undertake? I would really love to do...

22:16

work with the ultimate change maker.

22:24

How do we build a culture of vulnerability and meet people where they're at? You know, and you talk about attitudes, you talk about people thinking less than or ableism. And I would really love to work with senior leaders in terms of

22:53

How do we really and truly embed a culture of kindness, a culture of vulnerability, so that it would trickle down to how we automatically think of everyone?

23:16

Mm-hmm. That's a big mountain to move, I think. Don't do it. Don't do it. And so, in your work advocating for inclusion, what approach do you take towards people who are resistant or skeptical to some of these changes?

23:38

You know, I like to meet people with curiosity. And I like to say, you know why? And then come up with a mind of wonder and say, why are there some aspects you don't like, or what is it that makes you think?

24:06

like this because we could never we could never assume why they are listed this

24:30

So right now are there any city of Vancouver projects you're particularly excited about outside of the accessibility strategy? Well, I don't really know how to answer that because accessibility strategy is my main project. So I can't really tell you what my other projects are.

25:00

And disability is all that I do. But I do enjoy working with other departments. I do enjoy working with them to shift their narrative of people with disabilities and working with other departments.

25:26

Do you have any final thoughts on accessibility and how Vancouver and British Columbia in general is doing when it comes to accessibility? You know, having been born and raised here and having a very, you know, limited experience in terms of travel.

25:54

And golden to me, I think Vancouver, city of Vancouver is on the right track. Um, we have a long way to go, but, um, I think slowly but surely.

26:15

Yes, and I think attitudes here are typically a little bit better than other parts of the world, from what I've seen. But on a more deeper personal level, do you feel included here? I worked really hard to develop a community of friends. And...

26:45

family, you feel included. I've worked really hard in terms of myself and where my disability falls and how my disability plays out in my own life. So speaking for me, I've worked

27:13

really hard to do that. And then from how I turned my disability in my own life, I could build a community that I still included. That took a long time to do that.

27:40

So now I feel like it's just a long time. So I want to thank you for joining us today and talking about some exciting things you're working on with the city of Vancouver.

27:53

You have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. Our guest today you're listening to is Karen Lai. She's the accessibility planner with the City of Vancouver, where she's making great strides in improving inclusion and accessibility for the disability community here in British Columbia. Karen, thank you so much for joining me today.

28:14

You're welcome. And it was a great opportunity to come here today. Thank you very much. I'm Evan Kelly, DDA Communications Manager. We'll see you next time.

Success will come when advocating and fostering change in prevailing attitudes when it comes to disabilities. In this episode of DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast, we chat with well-known disability advocate Spencer van Vloten who prides himself on being a champion for the disability community.

TRANSCRIPT

DDA Chats with Disability Advocate Spencer van Vloten

00:06

So welcome to another DDA Encouraging Abilities podcast. I'm your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Today we're joined by Spencer Van Vlaten. Now, Spencer is a very well-known and outspoken member of the disability community.

00:20

He's the editor of BCDisability.com, a chair of Community Living BC in the Vancouver Council. He's a nationally published writer and advocate who has written or talked, rallied about countless issues that affect the disability community here and abroad. He is passionate about community living and social policy. He has been awarded the Medal of Good Citizenship by the province of BC, the City of Vancouver Excellence Award, as well as being named

00:50

the year, not to mention he's very active online on Twitter where we often connect. So thanks for joining us today Spencer, really nice to have you here. Yeah thanks Evan, I really appreciate the opportunity. And I have to add that it's you know in the days of post-COVID it's nice to have someone in the studio for the first time utilizing the equipment that we have here. Absolutely. So right off the top just tell us a little bit about yourself, like why are you such an advocate in the disability community?

01:17

Well, I'm from Vancouver and I also spent some time in Lannley growing up. I first became interested in advocacy as a kid. I have a cousin with cerebral palsy who is a few years older than me. And so I saw growing up the barriers they faced. And that led me to want to work within the disability field when I got older. And so I've done that with organizations like Easter Seals and Community Living BC.

01:48

As I grew up, I also began to notice more of the interconnections between issues. So, that disability justice isn't just about disability, but it also involves issues like housing and poverty reduction. Housing also involves issues like mental health. And so I became very interested in the way so many things in our society and so many of the outcomes we want to see are linked.

02:17

And so that led to a sort of general issue in community affairs. And at the moment, as you mentioned, I run bcdisability.com. I also run umebc.ca. I love writing on a range of different policy issues out there. And yeah, I just have a passion for inclusive communities, and I hope that's reflected in my work.

02:43

your own education has gone into that route as well? Oh absolutely, so I studied, well in university I studied political science. I was particularly interested in how to use you know advocacy within political channels to to achieve the outcomes we want to see and that's become a big focus of my work and I think I think ultimately you know a lot of the things that advocates are pushing for.

03:12

are ultimately achieved through political ends. We want our policy makers and our lawmakers to enact a certain bill that will bring into effect the candidate disability benefit or more support for youth with Down syndrome. And so my studies of political science are really linked to what I do now. I also studied sort of general studies in issues of equity.

03:40

and how to create inclusive communities. And so I'm really pleased that I was able to actually study in an area that I not only had a great interest in, but I've been able to work in as well. Because so many people, they do their studies in university, and they go off, and they happen to get a good job, but it's not related at all to what they studied. And so thankfully, I've been able to incorporate my education with my work. That's good. I mean, that's reaching the goal. Now just sort of jumping right into.

04:09

policy and things. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in Vancouver right now. There's a lot of housing issues. There's...

04:17

substance abuse issues, how are we doing in terms of, in those fields in your mind, in terms of even accessibility? Well, on accessibility, I think we're thinking more about accessibility lately, which is a good thing. We had our first ever, ever provincial accessibility legislation brought in just not too long ago.

04:47

been working on its accessibility strategy and is about to go through phase two of the consultations for that. Yeah, we're involved in that as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I know that that process has been, there's been great involvement in consultation with the disability community in that. So that's good. We're definitely thinking about accessibility. And I think it's gone beyond just, you know, physical spaces.

05:15

but also thinking more about technology, information, education, and attitudes. And I actually spoke recently with a Japanese accessibility scholar, Maiko Sugawara, and she was so impressed when she came here with just how, I guess, the attitudes here and the support, the general support for people with disabilities. But that said, that's a good of it.

05:45

The problem is that people with disabilities, whether they be physical, developmental, or both, are still facing a lot of barriers. And I know actually of cases with some well-known disability organizations, not the DDA, but where they actually themselves had issues with accessibility in their buildings. And so you can see even organizations that do great work for people with disabilities have accessibility issues.

06:15

When people think about accessibility these days, it's still not automatic. It's still not embedded in just our thought process. It's kind of more of an afterthought, something we have to will ourselves to think about. And we're doing that and that's a start, but I think we need to take that to another level, or else we're just gonna keep overlooking things. Well, yeah, absolutely. And it's the one sort of concept we're trying to push and other organizations, associations are trying to push

06:46

developers is this idea of universal code rather than getting something to a building code which can make something somewhat accessible. It might have a ramp or something like that, but if let's say you go up to the 13th floor or whatever and there's a fire, there's nothing in that code that shows how to get someone in a wheelchair necessarily out of that building. So it's still somewhat, so when we build something, the code...

07:13

it doesn't mean it's accessible to everybody. We really need to include the disability community to understand so that the developers, the builders, policymakers understand that.

07:27

things have to be done with their specific input. Yeah, and you know, when we make things accessible, it's not just helping people with disabilities, it's helping mothers who may be pregnant or may have to have a stroller they're pushing around, it's helping seniors. Really everyone benefits, there's no one who is worse off because of greater accessibility. And so, yeah, there still needs to be greater progress in the practical side of things.

07:56

and uh... you know i think things are in the right direction but there's still many steps to be taken and you know it doesn't even have to cost that much to make something more accessible you know putting in putting in a uh... door handle that there's a lever rather than and on makes that absolutely people to access

08:15

So you recently wrote about how we're falling short of adequate support for children of Down's Syndrome. How can individuals and organizations like DDA push for better support and resources for British Columbians with developmental disabilities like Down's Syndrome? Well, I think it's, you know, there's a phrase, squeaky wheel gets the grease, and I think that's often very true when it comes to advocacy. It's crucial to apply constant pressure on the people who make

08:45

decisions over who gets what resources. So it's important that we are always raising our voices, whether that's through social media, through talking to friends and family, through organizing campaigns, through donating to an advocacy group that we think does good work. There needs to be constant ongoing pressure and it's so important.

09:12

that this is consistent and that it doesn't stop because if you can put all the pressure on government but then if you let up they realize that they just have to hold out and kind of weather the storm for a bit and then you know the thing the thing the case that I want to look at is a good example is you look at the decision the government had regarding the the hubs for children.

09:39

uh... you know with uh... you know complex needs uh... they were going to move to this hub model but then the like mostly the the autism community and i don't know how to get there's so much pushback and they organized so well and they just they kept their voices up they were doing rallies and having a fence they were in the media bringing letters to editors they were making appointments with their mla and they just they did not let up

10:07

and eventually the government decided to not go forward with this plan or to put a pause on it. And that's an example of effective advocacy. It's intense, it's consistent, and it's working across multiple channels. And ultimately as well, a key part of that is working together and cooperating with like-minded advocates. You know, we can do so much more together than we can when we're fractured. And I think

10:38

That's a crucial element as well. So I just, yeah, saying to anyone out there who wants to advocate more for people with developmental disabilities, you know, raise awareness, educate people, get involved and don't give up because change, it may not happen overnight, but the more you persist, the better the chance that, you know, you get what you're looking for. Yeah.

11:00

I think, you're right, I mean, the way the government sort of backed down on that plan a little bit, I think they're moving forward on some of it, but I think it might have, it came right down when David Eby took over as well, so I think that might have helped their cause a little bit. Yeah, it was also, the timing was a bit fortuitous, I guess, because David Eby came into power and he had the chance to frame this as, you know, a fresh start.

11:28

uh... and it's easier to to to change a policy if you're coming in new than if you were there when it was brought in and have to admit there was in a good idea so uh... but still i think the advocacy was an important part of uh... you know getting the government to uh... to make those uh... to put put put a hold on it for now now from your perspective how does bc stock up compared to other provinces in terms of disabilities from a financial perspective uh...

11:57

It's important to note at the outset that pretty much all the provinces are doing terrible. Northwest Territories is the only province or territory that pays over $2,000 a month in provincial disability support. I believe Yukon is next with around $1,700 and it just keeps going down from there. I believe overall BC has about like the fourth highest provincial disability rate.

12:27

which sounds good but it's still far below the poverty line and as a percentage of income people with disabilities in bc only make about seventy percent of what people without disabilities in bc makes which is below the national average so i don't think we're doing that good uh... we also need a lot more support for uh... adults with complex uh... needs to live independently in their communities

12:55

We have the CSEL program, which could be such a powerful program and could do this, but it's been left to run dry. We don't support youth with Down syndrome like we should. And you know what frustrates me is that so much of the decision to keep certain policies in place is just simply based on what other provinces do.

13:19

So, for example, when I talked with the previous minister of social development and poverty reduction regarding the issue of clawing back someone's support because of what their spouse makes, it was basically intimated to me that, well, all the other provinces have the same policy too, therefore it's okay and we're going to keep doing it. The thing is, often all other provinces have poor policies as well.

13:47

and we really need to step up, BC needs to be bolder and take the lead on a lot of these disability issues. If you look recently, BC decided to make prescription contraception free. I believe it was the first province in Canada to do so. And about a week after, Manitoba then announced they're going to follow up with legislation to do the same. And so it sets up a domino effect when one province steps up and takes the lead.

14:16

So BC right now isn't doing that. It needs to do that because so many people here with disabilities are falling behind. And it's not just because they need money. I mean, the cost of living here is astronomical. Cost of living is crazy. Just like Vancouver, for example, it can cost over $3,000 for a two-bedroom apartment. Our housing market in Vancouver, the prices were already very high. And yet they've gone up.

14:46

twice the national average over the last year or so. What I really want to see as well, I was focusing on provincial disability rates, but another important element when it comes to making housing affordable and accessible for people with disabilities is more federal government support. Federal government used to, prior to the 1990s, used to do far more to build social housing and low-cost housing in Canada.

15:14

and then the 1990s came and that really dropped off and as a result we have a major housing shortage here in BC. The housing shortage is even greater for people with disabilities because a lot of the tiny amount of what is available isn't accessible. So that needs to change and I really think, you know, I could, someone could frame it as saying well BC does better than other provinces but...

15:43

I think we need to look at it is BC and other provinces, the other provinces don't do it well at all. And so there's so much to advocate for here in BC and that's why the advocacy community is very active here.

15:59

And I think a lot of the general public don't quite understand. Like, it's not just, we're not just talking about a cost of living for the disability community because there are so many more expenses to being disabled. You might need, you know, accessible technology. I was talking to one of the VPs at the Rick Hansen Foundation and his wheelchair is $38,000. Yep. That's a car. Exactly. You know? And not to mention if he's going to get a car, it's got to be something that's like lift equipped.

16:29

be able to get into and draw it. Yeah, I know someone who, they have a specialized chair, they have cerebral palsy. Their chair basically broke down and they need $10,000 to repair it. That's not something that you're facing if you don't have a disability. There's all sorts of expenses like that. So you face greater expenses, lower income, trying to do this while living in, you know.

16:56

some of the most expensive cities in the world and it's a tough road. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. But now we're talking, we can switch that to Bill C-22, which I think is in its third reading in the Senate or something. Yeah, it's in the Senate. That might be a good thing. I haven't really gotten down to many of the details in terms of

17:22

you know what that benefit is going to look like. I don't know what you've heard. So yeah, Bill C-22 is enabling legislation so it basically will set out a framework from which they can fill in the details. So there's limited information out there in terms of what we know about what it will look like. There's some important elements that I think absolutely must be part of it though. It must be...

17:48

something that people can receive whether they're on provincial or federal disability assistance. It shouldn't matter which one they're on. It should be something that's, it should be a meaningful amount of money, not a piddly like $50 extra a month, not to say that couldn't help, but it should be, I think, at least a few hundred. I mean, during the pandemic, I think...

18:15

the three hundred dollars extra that some people with disabilities received each month it did make a difference and three hundred dollars back then is about three fifty to four hundred now so i hope it's at least that much uh... so it needs to at least be a meaningful amount of money uh... and it needs to also not be uh... administratively burdensome benefits to access uh... because you know

18:40

Navigating government systems and all the paperwork and what you need to do to get this benefit or that can be a hassle. So those are three elements I really think are needed when they start to flesh out the details. And absolutely, I cannot stress enough that provinces should not claw any of this back from provincial disability assistance. We see that far too often. Someone's found a way to get a bit more money.

19:06

and the province will just knock it off whatever else they're already getting. And it just sets people who are already struggling even further back. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's all come comes down to the support. And when people have those supports in place, they can live and they can contribute. So that's where it really, what it comes down to. Yeah. Um, Maid, I don't know if you want to talk about this. Yeah. This is a very, very touchy subject. I, yeah, I'll talk about Maid for sure. You know, I've actually read in a lot about Maid and interviewed, uh,

19:35

several people who have pursued Maid, and you know, Maid does have a place in... I think so too. It does have a place for sure in very specific circumstances. There are cases where people simply have, they suffer tremendously and they have no option left to improve their life. That is a case where you look at, you know, where you look at might consider Maid and you might say that that's acceptable if someone pursues that.

20:04

The thing is though, the problem is that we are often enabling people to kill themselves and doing more to help people kill themselves than we are to help them get the support they need to live happy, healthy lives. So you know, we need bolder, faster action to address poverty. We need greater programs which help.

20:31

People with complex disabilities live in their communities. We need more affordable housing. And we need to be able to look at ourselves and say, have we done everything we can to help this person live a good life? Because if we haven't, then too many people out there are going to pursue maid when they're really dying of poverty and not because they have some incurable.

21:00

uh... intractable pain or illness suffering from so i've talked to people who like uh... madeline and scarlet rose i've done stories about them who there's treatments out there that could help them you know live good lives but they just don't have the the resources to afford it and this is when you know becomes troublesome because you get people like them who are then

21:30

So that's a bit of the issue I have with it. We, I think, when we have legislation like made and when we have assisted suicide, we need to ensure that we've done all we can to help people live good lives before we make that an option for them. And so I don't think that's happening yet. And yeah, it is a contentious issue for sure. But.

21:58

I know a lot of people will have different opinions on that, but I really think that it comes down to doing more to help people live good lives. Absolutely. What I'm seeing is, you know, I sort of dig into the issue of medical assistance and dying, is some of the optics, because I'll read a story from the BBC or something that's overseas, and the headlines are literally, Canada is killing poor people. Yeah. It's almost...

22:25

It's almost like they're saying that Canada has gotten eugenics back in place. Yeah, and you know, there's lots of... Canada's getting a bit of a reputation from that, and this idea that we are... You know, Justin Trudeau kills disabled people. You know, that's obviously... they exaggerate for the headlines. There's a lot more to the story. But you know, I have talked with many disabled people who do see it as eugenics.

22:53

And because, you know, if the government hasn't helped them get the treatment they need or help them, you know, find affordable housing, but they are helping them kill themselves, well, I mean, it's totally understandable how someone would not feel good about the government in that situation. So it's difficult because you have to balance the fact that May does have a place in certain cases with the fact that...

23:22

In other cases, it can be a dangerous thing because people out there could still live good lives just if they had the support they need and they don't at the moment. So, yeah, and Canada's reputation I think has taken a hit as a result. Now, what do you think about, I mean, we're talking a lot about accessibility and finances and how like...

23:45

maybe throwing money at problems helps them go away. I think it does to a degree, but we're still at the same time dealing with other prevailing attitudes when it comes to disabilities or developmental disabilities. How do we foster that positivity or that change within the community at large? Well, I think education is such a big thing, for one. I've been in the CLBC Community Council that...

24:14

you know, I'm involved with. We hold and have held community events where we've invited policy makers, local MLAs and counselors and MPs, and, you know, several of them have come and they haven't had any idea that the community living movement exists. They haven't had any idea about the issues affecting people with developmental disabilities. They never really had any interaction before with people with developmental disabilities. I think the biggest key to changing attitudes is...

24:43

educating people and also having just coming together as a community, having events, you know, celebrate community inclusion and where people with disabilities and people without disabilities are interacting. And then you see, you know, this person may have Down syndrome but they're still funny and they're great to be around, they're a kind person, they have wants and needs and goals and wishes, they have strengths and weaknesses. When you don't have that type of direct interaction, I think

25:13

people are more likely just to see people based on their disability and just to think oh that's a disabled person, that's not like Kevin and Kevin who loves watching you know uh Marvel movies and stuff. So I think education is key, just community involvement and inclusion is key as part of that too. Because it's true you know money can do a lot but it can only do so much and I think we need to um.

25:41

really do more to get people together in the same room and to bring people together. And that's something that changed my life too when I was younger, you know, just having that interaction with my cousin. You know, I saw him just as my cousin first and not, you know, the disabled guy, the guy in the wheelchair who everyone else saw. And so I think that is something I'd really emphasize.

26:06

Yeah, and to your point, I haven't been working for DDA forever, and I don't have a lived experience when it comes to disability, so after being here for a few years, it is that attitude of they're not the disability, they're people before that. I've taken 100 clients to a Whitecaps game, and they're having an amazing time. Exactly.

26:30

you know if we win when when the elections are here we get them on voting they understand the issues they know what bothers them they know what sir what needs to change yeah and you know there's so many ways people can be similar in ways they can be different disabilities just one way you know different disabilities is just one thing uh... you know this person may have a disability and i might not have a disability but look we're both interested in the same movies the same sports we have a similar sense of humor it far outweighs the fact that you know

26:59

one person might have a disability and the other doesn't and i think we read we really need to get past which was still acknowledging you know that uh... disability does change someone's experience in society we really need to try to do our best to to move beyond that and uh... just to see people as humans absolutely and it doesn't you know i think disability doesn't have to limit exactly like

27:28

You seem to have a totally switching gears. You got a keen interest in World War II, I guess. You wrote a piece about Vimy Ridge. Yeah. Why did you write that piece? Well, you know, I've always had a general interest in war, particularly the down in the trenches combat aspect of it. And it's not because I'm some sort of lover of violence. It's actually because I'm very interested in the ways that people can persevere.

27:56

and work together to overcome the most extreme experiences and the most extreme circumstances that you could possibly find yourself in. So with a situation like Vimy Ridge, you had people from different areas of Canada, never met each other before, forced into the most pressing, challenging situation you could really find yourself in. And they found a way to persevere.

28:25

and to succeed in the face of great adversity. And I look at that as an example of, you know, around the time when I wrote that piece on Vimy Ridge, Canada was going through a period where there was a lot of division and a lot of talk about how polarized we were becoming. And yet I look at an example of like Vimy Ridge and it shows that when we come together and work together, you know.

28:49

our ability to thrive off one another and to succeed as a team far outweighs any differences we have. And so applying that to advocacy, you know, I really always believe that we are more powerful together. And that's why, you know, I try to collaborate with everyone I can. I try to be supportive of everyone out there. And I just really encourage people, you know, work together.

29:13

don't be divisive, we're in this together and are stronger together. And I just look at Vimy Ridge as an example of that and something we can learn a lesson from even all these years later. I think that's well said. What more do you need to say? Anything else to add today about disabilities in general and advocacy? I just want to really stress the need if you're going to be an advocate.

29:41

and you're feeling intimidated at the idea of going to talk to an MLA or writing a letter to someone or being part of a campaign, it can just start with speaking up to your family and friends. It can start with speaking out to your colleagues or telling them about an issue and that people with developmental disabilities are still excluded in a lot of ways in BC. It doesn't have to be some grand thing.

30:11

And just, you know, persist because when we keep the pressure on, that's when we make the biggest difference. And just one more thing I want to say, and I know DDA is involved with this too, to the listeners in Vancouver, the second phase of the city's accessibility consultations will be held in May. I think it's May 27th or so. But if that's something you're interested in.

30:39

in participating in it's another way you can be an advocate so uh... if you look online there will be more information about that soon and uh... encourage you to participate and you can also just be a keyboard warrior how do people find exactly yeah be a keyboard warrior go to if you want to check uh... my if you want to see examples of what i've written you can go to spencer v dot c a uh... you can also go to spencer

31:04

And you can also, if you don't have a Twitter or an Instagram or Facebook, think of starting one and think of speaking out about the issues you care about. Because your opinion does matter and it can influence what happens. So speak out and make yourself known. Your opinion counts. And I think just one final point, which I've made this point on many podcasts, is that we're not really just speaking necessarily for the disability community.

31:32

we're speaking for everyone because at some point in our lives, whether cognitive or physical, we're going to need assistance, we're going to need support, we might need that funding or policy in place. Exactly. This is for everybody. Exactly, it's for everyone. Inclusion benefits everyone, accessibility benefits everyone. No one loses because of this. That's why I think it's so important, even if you don't have a disability, to be an ally and to support greater community inclusion.

32:03

You have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. Our guest today has been Spencer Van Vlaaten, as you can see, is a great and outspoken advocate for the disability community. Spencer, thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it, Evan.

Roshni Kashyap was born to make food. The young woman with Down syndrome started a chutney business and is poised to launch a cookbook. However, she has many other talents and her whole life to explore them. Including publishing a book of poetry. Available on Amazon is Don't Forget You're Beautiful.

TRANSCRIPT

Roshni is a Self-Advocate with a Mission to Feed!

00:04

Hello and welcome to another edition of DDA's podcast, Encouraging Abilities. I am your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Now lately we've been talking a lot about inclusion and accessibility with a variety of interviewees, but today we're chatting with a very interesting young lady, her name is Roshni Kashyap, to be clear, and I got this from your website. She likes to be called Rosh for short. So that's so much easier for me. Now Rosh is a self advocate with Down syndrome.

00:33

who is building a chutney empire. Food is in her blood. She's been cooking with her mom for as long as she can remember and completed the food service careers program at Vancouver Community College. Since then has launched three different chutneys and even wrote a book on her. Now on her website, she says, and I really like this, they say I have Down syndrome, but that doesn't get me down. That's such a wonderful outlook on life. Welcome to the podcast, Rosh. Thank you.

01:03

So tell us a little bit about how you started being involved with cooking. I had a passion of cooking since I was a little girl. And ever since then, I've seen my grandmother and my mom, like, be in cooking. And that's how I actually loved cooking. Now, do you come up with your own recipes? Are they somewhat sort of passed down from family members?

01:28

Actually when it comes to um, my chutney business, I actually had some help come up with my recipes Can you tell me a little what how do you settle on the final ingredients of these recipes? I'm every ingredient actually um, so I do get it from a wholesaler and sometimes I have at home Mm-hmm. Yeah, like I get things in bulk sometimes even the crime berries

01:56

and cranberries. And so how many different chutneys do you sell right now? At the moment, I'm thinking of like a backseat of that because I'm going to start on a different vegetable also in the food category. Oh, you're gonna do something different other than chutneys? Yes, that's right. What do you gonna produce? Actually, I'm going to be producing a recipe book.

02:25

Oh, wow. A recipe book. So how many recipes are you going to include in that? At the moment, it's 30. I am going to add more. Well, 30. That's a lot of recipes. I don't think I could come up with 30 recipes or ideas to cook with. So are you as what you're saying is people can't get your chutneys now? Is that the idea? I think it's seasonal at the moment. And it's been a while since I made the chutneys. Okay.

02:53

Is there any still available or should we just wait for the recipe book?

02:58

I'm you can do a bit of both as and you can contact rosh's chutneys Let me know if you're interested in some and then I can make according To whoever wants. Oh, I see what you mean. Okay, so and just to be clear that's rosh's chutneys calm rosh's chutneys calm and all the contact information is there so that sounds really really good

03:25

And so this cookbook, what kind of recipes are you sort of focusing on? Is this, you are Indian, so are the recipes in this new recipe book going to focus on Indian cuisine, or are you going to branch out a little bit? It is going to be like international cooking, actually. Oh, wow. Can you give us an idea of one or two of the recipes? One of them is a sweet dish.

03:55

Indians read this and one is translated to says sour potatoes. Sour potatoes. That sounds good. It's I know a mashed potato dish that involves a lot of sour cream. Is it that kind of thing? No, it's a Indian style type of cooking. Wow, that sounds good. We will definitely get a copy of that book here at DDA. When when are you expecting that to be finished?

04:23

Actually, that's going to take a little while for it to get up and running. Once it starts up and running, then I will let you know for sure. Absolutely. Then you could like sell it on Amazon or something like that where people can print it off and you have the service they can bind it for you and everything like that. Or are you actually trying to publish this and get it into stores or something? As of now, I have it as a PDF form. Soon I am going to have a physical book.

04:52

Hopefully that'll be really great So you've mentioned as well on your website that your sister helps you out a lot is so she's still helping She's still helping you a lot with your chutneys and your cookbook She is helping me. Yes, she helps me a lot That's excellent. What about your parents? I know they've been very very supportive of your cooking too, right? Yes, that is true They have been very supportive of my interests and in the food world

05:20

Well, it sounds like you're really doing some great stuff here. Now you also mentioned on your website that you try using local ingredients as much as possible. Is that really important for you? That is very important in multiple ways. Like, um, that also helps benefits when it comes to, um, the spiciness cycle involved in the food. And it's really, really good stuff that I'm providing.

05:48

and you really want to focus on healthy ingredients too, yeah? Correct. That's excellent. It also mentions you were, I don't know, sort of change the subject a little bit here, it mentions that you're in UBC. Are you still at UBC or are you finished there? Actually I graduated from UBC. Amazing. What were you taking? I graduated under Film and Theatre.

06:18

film and theater. Yeah. So you're doing a lot of different things here Raj. You're cooking. So are you doing something with the film and theater as well in your life? I do have a YouTube channel. So I put whatever I feel like on it.

06:38

Yeah, I noticed that I looked at it a little bit. So you've got some food stuff and a bunch of other different things. So are you hoping to get into like film direction or acting or something like that? I don't know yet. I haven't figured out my career path yet. That's a hard one to figure out sometimes. Yeah.

07:03

Now, I know you've got this recipe book coming, but you've written another book, haven't you? My very first book was called Don't Forget Your Beautiful. That's actually on Amazon at the moment. And that's called Don't Forget Your Beautiful? Yes, that's my poetry book. Oh, wow. So what do you... tell me a little bit about your poetry.

07:31

I used to write poetry until I got help to, I've been writing, written a lot of poetry. And I had it all with me. I don't know, one day a friend of mine just took my poetry and helped me turn it into a book with paintings and everything. Now, did you do the paintings and the illustrations yourself? The illustrations, yes, but the paintings is now a friend of mine.

07:58

What do you know when it comes to poetry? What do you like to write about? Sometimes about love, sometimes it was something funny, something that makes you feel happy. And sometimes it may just question yourself as a mixture of everything. A mixture of everything. Speaking of mixtures, let's go back to chutneys because I'm a big fan. Can you take me through the process of making one of your chutneys?

08:28

The thing is, a true chef never shares her secrets. Oh, yes, I guess that is quite true. So, OK, I won't I won't ask you further to divulge your your your chutney secrets. I was not about ingredients, but is there a sort of a process you just in terms of the cooking, is there cooking times that are important to anything like that?

08:56

like um cooking is my passion and i do it i cook out of love and when i can do the labor of doing it well it's worth making cranberry chutney because chutney is in my background cranberries on bc that yeah i thought what the heck let's make something yum yeah the words certainly are known for our cranberries our cranberries out here aren't we yes um

09:23

I've also noticed on your Instagram page that you have a doggy. I'm a dog person. We love our dogs over here at BDA. What kind of dog is she? He is a Labradoodle. Labradoodle. What's his name? Buddy. Buddy. Oh, that's great. So when back to UBC, how long did you go there for? I was there for five years. Five years. And so have you got a degree in film studies and theater?

09:53

I did get a certificate of completion. Okay. That's amazing. Did you have a lot of fun there? Oh, it was amazing. I love being on UPC campus. It was very worth it. Oh, wow. It sounds like you have an amazing life going here. And then it doesn't sound like Down Syndrome has been much of a hindrance for you. I don't let that get me down. As in, I don't want people to see me as that.

10:22

If you see me as a person that's good enough. And so why is being a self advocate important to you? People need to hear the voice behind the girl and the girl behind the mask of having Down syndrome. And what would you what what sort of message would you like to send to other self advocates?

10:48

That's a good question actually. My message would be if you have some sort of disability, don't let that get to yourself and make sure that you are self-aware of what you're doing. If you're passionate about it, just go for it. And if you have a voice, run with it. That's excellent. Very, very well said. So where do you see yourself in the next five years?

11:18

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know where I think myself at the moment. I have no clue. Maybe I'm hoping somewhere in the film line or in the music line, one of the two. Okay, so what I'm a musician myself. So what what is it about music that you do? I actually write my own rap songs. Oh, wow. Really? Okay. Yes. That's amazing.

11:47

I have recorded a few of my rap songs but not too many yet. Okay, are those on your YouTube channel? No, not at the moment. Yeah, that's uh, making music is an interesting process. I've been doing it for many, many years. Wow. So anybody that can get up there and rap, I doff my hat to you. That's amazing. What do you rap about?

12:11

Um, um, I've got so many rap songs that one is called super solo. One is one is about, um, I don't want to name drop brand away chip, but I'm just gonna call it chip song. Chip chip song. Now you say you want to name drop as in who when I say that it's actually called the Pringle rap. Oh, that chip song like as in as in potato chips. Yes.

12:39

Here's a fun fact, did you know Pringles are made with mashed potatoes? I did not know that actually. Now you know. That's how they get them all the same shape. I had no idea about that. Interesting cooking tips. Anything else to add, Rosh? It sounds like you're a really, really busy person just having fun with life. Fun fact, there's another part of my studying that I have been doing lately.

13:06

And it's an online program that I am doing. An online program? Yes. Okay. What would that be? Vancouver Island University. And it's an entrepreneurship program, online program I'm doing. An entrepreneurship program. Oh, you mean like, oh, you mean for studies?

13:31

For studies, I'm just going to be close to my cookbook. Oh, that's what you do in your cookbook too. Oh, that sounds great. Well, I got to be honest, we're looking forward to that cookbook. We will definitely order a few and we'll like we we here at DDA. We run a bunch of group homes for for for adults and community living. And we would be happy to distribute that book to all of our group homes. That would be a good thing to do and get your recipes out there. Yeah, that's true.

14:01

like distribute maybe my poetry book. We can do I will help you do that if that's available online and if you you know you and I are in contact you can send me the links I'd be happy to publish that on our social media channels to get your name out there that would be easy. Yes you can also find me on my social media platforms. Yes are your is your social media connected to your Rosh Chutney's website?

14:30

one of them is but not all of them are okay we'll have to all have to uh... i know i know i've seen your youtube channel but i've got a i think i've got a are you on facebook and twitter as well uh... it's not on twitter but it is on facebook okay we will we will find you there and and is is is your your first book available on the link there my very first book will be actually on

14:54

On Amazon, except I don't forget your beautiful, my poetry book will be on Amazon. If you just tap up my name. I will do that. And I'm going to, I'm going to put that on social media right now. Right. I'll write as soon as we're done here. Awesome. Well, Roche, it's been really great having you on the show. I think we've covered a lot of bases here. Our guest today has been Rochne Kashyap, a self-described foodie who has Down syndrome.

15:21

but that doesn't seem to stop her at all. She started her own chutney business after completing courses at Vancouver Community College and at UBC. You can still possibly order some chutneys on her website and that's www. She is about to publish her first cookbook, so we're anticipating that. That's gonna be awesome. So, Rosh, thanks again for joining us.

15:47

Thank you very much. Now you have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. I'm Evan Kelly. See you next time. All right.

Not even two years old, Kello Inclusive Modeling Agency, based in Edmonton already has some massive brands seeking them out. But what's more important is the clients they represent.  We chat with founder Katie MacMillan.

TRANSCRIPT

Kello Inclusive: Edmonton-based Modeling Agency is Starting to Get Noticed

00:06

It's time again for Developmental Disabilities Association's Encouraging Abilities podcast. I am your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Today we're talking about inclusion. We've been talking a lot about accessibility. Of course, that's important too. But inclusion is one of the driving forces of DDA and its community. Joining us from Edmonton is the founder of Kelo Inclusive. It's a modeling agency based in Edmonton.

00:29

You know what makes this agency different is that they're fundamentally about inclusion and striving for representation in the modeling world The clients they represent have a disability of one form or another they might be missing a limb or they may have a cognitive Disability it sort of runs the gamut so right from their website. I'll take this little quote Representation matters because when a person sees themselves represented fully and fairly in the world they live in they know they matter being inclusive means

00:57

taking the time to listen, learn, and adapt. Kelo exists to make that change and to be that link in the industry that is looking for to make the leap toward true authentic inclusion. So Katie McMillan is the founder of this great business. She brings her experience and drive to include through her three children, one of whom has cerebral palsy. Katie, it's great to have you on the show today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.

01:26

Now, firstly, thank you for obviously creating such a unique business in a professional, in a profession, I should say, that is normally dominated by what might call the industry standard of beauty. It's just really nice to have that.

01:42

Yeah, and if we, I mean, we could probably make a whole other episode on talking about beauty standards and all the ways they need to maybe expand. But we will definitely focus on disability today. Yeah, I mean, it's an industry that seems, at least in Canada, to be starting to have the conversation of inclusion and how important representing

02:05

body diversity, size diversity, neuro diversity, sexual diversity is, but when it comes to disability I think the conversation sometimes stops prematurely because I think it's so new in

02:20

It's not mainstream yet. And so I think the conversation stops sometimes because if I'm being blunt, I mean, it's scary for people. If you haven't had the lived experience, if you haven't had a close connection with someone who lives with a disability, it can be a bit scary and challenging and worrisome for people to just jump right into it. And honestly, that's what our agency is here to help with, is to make working with disabled talent less.

02:48

less scary, less of a question when you have the support in place to do that, then it's something that people are going to consider. Yeah, and I find, you know, after working with DDAs, that people, they don't know how to approach or they don't know how to necessarily deal with people, so they end up infant, people with disabilities, I mean, so they end up infantilizing them. So I look at a business that you're putting together here and it's just like, wow, these

03:16

these people belong on the front cover of a magazine. Right, and I know, and it's so funny, like, so I say this all the time, and again, okay, just to put a little context, as you mentioned, I have three children. My middle daughter is 12 years old. She has cerebral palsy. My oldest is 14, my youngest is four, so wide range. But I've been the parent of a child with a disability for 12 years. And I would say, if I'm being really honest about it, my...

03:42

For the first 10 years of Kelty's life, I would say that I didn't, I did a lot of things for her, but one thing I did not do intentionally was to have conversations with people who live with disabilities, people who are disabled. And about two, two and a half years ago, it was a giant shift for me where I started to listen to disabled voices. And I learned so much.

04:08

so much from the disabled community and it seems like you know something that would be so straightforward like if you want to learn about disability like go to the source like duh but I learned but you learn about disability through the context of ot's and pts and doctors and you know specialists and all of these people who are so knowledgeable but they are also not disabled um and one of the things I learned really I mean I could probably fill again a lot of time talking about all the things that I learned but one thing just circling back to what you said is the

04:36

One of the things, one message I heard repeatedly is disability gets associated with a very small number of things. It gets associated with tragedy, it gets associated with inspiration, and it gets associated with, as you mentioned, being infantilized or people are condescending or they're patronizing. And it really doesn't go beyond that very often. And I'm trying to reconcile this with my 12-year-old who's...

05:03

sassy and spunky and trendy and cool and kind and all of these things. And I'm like, this doesn't jive, right? And so that, I mean, that was my discussions with the disabled community were really the buddings of this agency and how much it was needed. Yeah. And I think, you know, when you when you present the disability community like you are, it's what I find even not necessarily with cognitive people who have got cognitive disabilities.

05:33

I talked to one woman recently who had vision problems or mobility problems, she was in a wheelchair, and it's this notion that people with disabilities can't accomplish things.

05:48

you know, someone would say to her like, oh wow, I'm so happy you got outside. It's like, yeah, of course I got outside. Did you want to talk about my law degree as well? Like, it's this notion that they can't accomplish these things. And when I see your website, I think that just flips that on the head for me. Well, I mean, media shapes perceptions, right? And when we tell a single sided story in media, then we get a single sided public perception. And when disability is always associated with, you know,

06:17

as being an absolutely tragic fate, then that's when we have this one-sided perception that, oh my, you have a mobility aid, you need support, you have access needs, like this is so sad.

06:30

and how could this possibly, you know, how could you exist in a world? And I mean, it's just not the case. I mean, I can't say that as a person or a parent in my case, but when you are a person that lives with mobility issues or have a good reason to consider access needs, I mean, life is frustrating. But a good big part of that reason is because you never have to consider your access needs until...

06:49

you have a person with a disability in your life, or you are become a disabled or are a disabled person, then you start to have to consider these access needs. And I think the more people that are exposed to disability in media, now we all have a lens of, we're gonna look at our world through a slightly different lens of saying, wait a second, I see wheelchair users in magazines all the time, and maybe I can consider access needs from a whole different perspective, but if they're not even part of the picture, literally, then...

07:18

people don't even think about it. And that's the problem and leads to so much complication and frustration for folks with disabilities. Yeah, absolutely. And that goes into whole other topics of like universal design and looking at, just looking at things through a different lens. I mean, designs, I've talked to a gentleman at the Rick Hansen Foundation a little while ago for another podcast and his perspective was that, things are designed for males between the age of 15 and 50.

07:48

But that's it. So we've got to really shift that lens. You know, there's a disabled content creator that put it so clearly to me. He said, you know, non-disabled people have never considered their access needs because they're always met. Like, no non-disabled person is calling ahead to check if there's a staircase available for them when they arrive because there's always a staircase, right? Like, whereas, you know, so when your access needs are met by default, you don't even have to consider them.

08:13

And you're right, that is a bigger conversation. But I mean, that's why representation matters. And I know with Kelsey, like, you know, when she's a 12 year old girl, that is the age that you become aware of the world's opinion. And she's had moments of like, you know, why am I in a wheelchair? Why do I have hearing aids? Why do I have to wear AFOs? Like, you know, why me? I'm so different. And in a moment of real emotion for her, you know, it doesn't matter how eloquent I am as a mom, it's the only thing that pulls her out of that moment is showing her pictures

08:43

women who have cerebral palsy, who are successful and happy and have children and have full and rich lives and the internet is a beautiful tool for being able to do that. But I have to go searching for that, you know, I'm looking those up and I'm pinging those in my phone so that I can show them to her what I'm looking for and what we're looking for with KEL Inclusive is to just, you know, make it be part of TV shows and magazines and dialogue and all of it.

09:07

and it might take some time to get there to represent the full numbers. You know, if they say, you know, a quarter of Canadians, you know, live with a disability. And then if you extend friends and family that are connected to those people, I mean, a good half of the country is either associated with someone who is closely associated with someone who has a disability or has a disability themselves. It's not like we're talking about a niche market here. It's like it impacts a lot of people. But the media just seems to treat it like...

09:36

Like it is a niche space and it's just not. And so let's jump right into this, this whole modeling thing. Do you come from a modeling background or is this just something brand new that you started? Great question. So I'll give you the origin story. So when Kelty was about five, I saw somebody posted on Facebook a Target magazine from Australia and in the girls clothing section.

10:01

was just one of the models had was using a crocodile walker, that little orange if you have CP in your world, you know what a crocodile walker is. And she was just posing. They weren't calling out the fact that she was disabled, nothing. She was just with the other in the clothing section. And I remember being like, oh, that is just awesome. You never see mobility aids in fashion. And to answer your question, no, zero in modeling experience from my background. But anyway, I saw that and I sort of thought, that's so cool. And I filed it away in the back of my mind for a while. And then COVID happened.

10:31

And everybody, like everybody on the planet, had a little more time on my hands. And I sort of recalled that, that Target magazine. And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to, I'm just going to send Kelty's pictures to a modeling agency in Calgary, see what happens. So I did. And they got back to me and we had a intake call and they signed Kelty. And, and I remember thinking I was so, we were so excited. We were like, this is so awesome. Like.

10:55

I would not have gotten my other children involved in modeling, not because I don't think it's an important career or could be an important career, but it just wouldn't have been something on my radar. But I was truly doing it to see if we could get more better representation. And so Kelsey was signed with this modeling agency for about two years. And we had a handful of experience with them, most of which was new to me. You know, but we were left just with such a bad taste in our mouth. Really to summarize, it's just

11:23

that industry did not know what the heck to do with disability. It was just so very clear to me that that was the case. I mean, we would show up to fashion shows and despite knowing they had a wheelchair user in their runway show, there was no ramp to get up on the runway. Or the clothing choices that would be chosen by the designer just would never fly with a wheelchair, a giant poofy dress that would get caught in her wheels. Or nobody knew the right questions to ask. Or one really upsetting moment for me, especially in hindsight was...

11:51

Kelty being paraded down the runway at the very end of the show to different music that was like, you know, the inspirational like look at the kid in the wheelchair and the the people the organizers of the show were sort of parade there were people crying in the audience and I'm not even sure why Kelty looking over at me like what the heck mom like why are people like I'm not dying

12:14

So it was just as kind of going, oh my goodness, this is nobody knows what to do with my daughter. So, you know, no, I didn't have any experience modeling or in this industry. And when we first started Kelo Inclusive, my goal was we really thought we'd stay in our lane of modeling, like print modeling. And I thought to myself, you know, if I can get disability, you know, in some big marketing campaign or on a few more runways, I will have succeeded and I will feel good about that.

12:42

But it very quickly grew into more than just modeling. I mean, we've had casting directors for TV commercials and voice acting and, you know, the city of Edmonton and, you know, a children's hospital and a university, a major Canadian university reach out. Like everybody needs to be more inclusive. And if you have imagery attached to your organization, which almost every organization does, people or folks are interested in showing that.

13:08

that in a real authentic way or at least starting to have that conversation and the resounding message we keep hearing is, oh my goodness, I'm so glad that an agency like yours exists because we wouldn't, we don't know where to go to find this. So well, and that's, and that's a good point because as the communications manager here at DDA, I'm often getting emails from casting directors that are needing people with disabilities and our family, our families to fill certain roles. So

13:32

I'm more than happy to send you some emails if you need that. Please forward them on. We are, I mean, truly, I mean, okay, so then we start, then we get into the, because this was the other side as our agency and our role as agents has sort of expanded because, you know, we're truly not just, I mean, we provide disabled talent, no question. So if there's a casting call or something that needs a person with a disability, we want to fill that and are happy to and have lots of people that we've connected with now to be able to do that. But the other side of it too is like,

14:01

there's been such a systemic barrier to entry in this industry. I mean, I've heard lots from disabled adults being like, I never even considered modeling or I never even considered acting because, you know, I'm in a chair or, you know, I have, you know, I, I'm missing a limb. I spoke to a woman who we just signed recently, who is a gorgeous, like she's beautiful. She has modeling experience. And she sent us all these beautiful professional images and we couldn't see her limb difference. And she said, well, I was told to hide it. And this was, I'm talking like within the recent past, like the last few years. Um, and so,

14:31

It's like we are having also to fight that kind of systemic barrier to entry as far as training goes, right? So it's not just about filling the disabled roles that come up. That's step one. But what we really hope is that we could put our talent forward for literally any role. We just are also really focused on training and making sure that our roster has opportunities to engage in accessibly minded training opportunities as well. And you know, as we grow that's something that

14:59

conversation we've been having with folks, people with a vested interest in it because it's also important to see disability is not just something niche or a box to tick, it's also like if there's a lead role for a film.

15:17

literally anyone could apply for it. It doesn't matter if you're a person of colour, if you're in a wheelchair, if you're, you know what I mean? So. Yeah, absolutely. And so, suffice to say that, I mean, my question was, you know, how has the response been from the business world? I mean, it sounds like it's been amazing.

15:34

Oh yeah, like overwhelming I would say would be an appropriate word in the best possible way. I mean like I said, we didn't really know, we had a real sense that there was a gap that needed to be filled, but as we connect with more folks across the country and are getting our name out there, the response has been just awesome. And from people that we wouldn't really have expected, like when we get a call from a casting director, a major casting director, that is exciting to us and exactly what we hoped for.

16:04

us to come and present and do a you know a discussion on on true inclusion and help with the up and coming you know students in their media and marketing um you know undergrads and how we can support that like that is the new and exciting stuff that that we didn't expect to have come out of this that that really you know kind of makes our our hearts sing a little bit about the fact that this isn't just

16:25

You know, this isn't just ticking boxes and filling roles. This is also about having a bigger conversation about inclusion. It's not not just a one off. Yeah. Now, are you how many since you started? How many how many clients do you have on your roster at the moment? We actually just counted up. I think we've signed just shy of 100 Canadians across the country. And we have.

16:48

Connected, I don't think I have a good list for you, but as far as a list of clients, I mean, just, I mean, it's only, so it's interesting timing-wise, like we started this in 2022 and really built some momentum over the first six months and now we're into the tail end of our first year and that's the last two or three months has been really, we've started to just see a real shift in people from all over, clients looking to connect with us and it's like I said, it's everything from, you know, like government organizations to

17:16

you know, clothing brands to, you know, large international campaigns. We, you know, one of our big exciting moments was we worked with L'Oreal and Lancome on an accessible technology for their, for some cosmetics application for people with upper limb weakness. That was the lipstick.

17:34

Yeah, the HACTA. You saw it. So Natasha is one of our models. Oh, is that right? Wow. So, you know, just again, and when we got that, you know, when we got that call, when the agent reached out to us regarding that, you know, we were obviously very excited and hoping to...

17:52

you know, meet whatever need that they had, but it's really spoke to the fact that how much of a need there is the fact that, you know, we were getting a call, an international call to help fill a role for disabled talent was really, was really again, just confirmation that we're doing the right thing here. It's clearly needed. Yeah. And that was my next sort of my next question. Any big names? Yeah, the biggest are actually, yeah. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So you know, we started with some small local businesses here in Edmonton to do some test shoots and our lead photographer is based in Vancouver.

18:22

and we've done some local Vancouver brands, but some of the bigger names, I mean, we've done some collaborations with Vessi, Lulu Lemon, we've done, Lon Coleman L'Oreal was a really big one. We've put our, there's a camping store in Edmonton, Track and Trail, Poppy Barley, Sweet Jolie, I mean, honestly, there's just a number of people. UBC, City of Edmonton, lots of folks have been connecting and have projects either on the go

18:52

have completed already and every single time. CBC is another one, we wreck the cast of 10 wheelchair users based in Edmonton and there's a reality show airing on CBC Prime Network at the end of this month, February 24th, it's called Push. And it follows the lives of 10 wheelchair users in Edmonton and we represent the cast of Push. And I think it's gonna be a really groundbreaking and exciting show for folks, cause it just shows.

19:19

them as human in all of their raw real lives and I think it'll do a lot of justice to the for to and for the disabled community. Well, now it with with you've got 100 people are you still looking to expand? Absolutely. I mean,

19:35

It's a good question. One of the values that we care a lot about, and I say we as my partner and I, Austin, Austin is my life partner and business partner, is the personal connection with the folks that we represent. I know with the small bit of experience I had with the agency we had Kelty first signed with, we felt like a number, which was unfortunate. You didn't really know who you were getting on the other side of that email. Nobody asked questions to get to know what Kelty was all about. I vowed that that is not the kind of

20:05

it comes to disability, there's so much nuance and uniqueness to everybody's situation. I want to have a pulse on that and for people to know that when they email me, they're getting my response and they know who I am. So is there a limit? I mean, I'm sure, or as we expanded, can hire more people that we trust to make those connections with folks on our roster. I like to say no, there really isn't a limit. As of right now, it truly is just Austin, myself, and we have a lead photographer who

20:34

you know, organizes a lot of the inclusive projects and consults on a lot of the inclusive projects, but right now it's just Austin and I. So we're getting busy. Austin, his...

20:46

He stepped away from his profession of he's an engineer by education, but did a lot of strategic management consultant and he's stopped doing that and doing KELO stuff full time. And I'm my profession is a high school teacher and I'm teaching part time in the mornings. And I don't think it'll be too, too long. And I'll be also having to step away from teaching. But and hiring some more agents and hiring some more agents and people that we, you know, that we trust with getting to know and doing right by our talent.

21:16

sort of the only game in the country or is there another organization that does the same kind of thing? It's interesting. We are the only one, we are the only agency in the country that is focused exclusively on disability and visible difference. There is, there are definitely agencies that have been around for a long time that have inclusive divisions of their agencies and they have things sometimes they call them things like special projects.

21:41

I can't say I love that name, but anyway, special projects or inclusive vision. But I had a really wide industry, a gentleman in the industry who was kind of trying to, in a loving way, poke holes in our business model and say, you know, so what's to stop a modeling agency or a talent agency that's been around for like 30 years just swooping in and doing what you guys are doing? And I just looked at him deadpan and I said, disability scares the heck out of people. I feel very comfortable in this space. And

22:10

I can't say I don't have more to learn, but I feel very comfortable. And for most folks, it's just not a comfortable space. So in 10 years from now, it may well be, but I think that we're feeling relatively confident at this moment of being able to become the true inclusion experts in the industry in Canada. I mean, that's how we really hope to position ourselves. And perhaps there'll be agencies that follow suit. There are some international agencies that are doing

22:38

What we're doing that have been around a little longer, but they have not seemed to make any headway in Canada thus far So it seems it seems like we've got a bit of a bit of a first movers advantage here and we hope to do right By it. Well, that's great now Obviously building something doesn't come up come without challenges. What are some of the challenges or frustrations you've had to face so far?

23:01

Well, I think for me it's capacity right now, which is a good problem to have, I guess. You know, like I said, you know, as we connect with more folks across the country, to be able to have all the time that I need to dedicate to every person is becoming a little more challenging, but something I'm not willing to give up. The other challenge, which I guess is a bigger picture and I think hopefully will change, it's just, you know, people, not everybody is on board with...

23:29

this idea of authentic inclusion, there's still a lot of social stigma and attitudes that need to change. So I think as much as I like to think we're headed in the right direction, there are definitely moments where I'm like, oh, we still have a long way to go. There's still a lot of advocacy work that needs to be done.

23:46

as well. The other the other pieces you know from a purely business standpoint like we are set up as a non-profit and we don't run around advertising that not because we're not proud of making that we just don't ever want anybody to you know, misassociate us as a charity helping these poor disabled folk, right? Like we just really want to get away from that and I know people that don't understand how non-profits work might make that that misassociation.

24:11

We set up as a non-profit because we know that, well, truly if Austin and I can earn a modest salary and cover what we would have normally been making as professionals in other areas, that would be good for us and we'd be happy. It's not about money for us. It's about changing social attitudes and the hard work in that way is the extra time and effort that needs to happen to do it the right way, to imply for the right kind of grants that are going to...

24:38

further what we're doing to have the advocacy conversations. You know, it's just a whole added layer of things that need to be done. And I just want to divide my time equally among everything and it's capacity right now, I would say would be the biggest challenge, but really hoping as we grow, we're still relatively young that we're going to build capacity as soon as possible and be able to hire on folks that.

24:59

that want to be on board with what we're doing. Now I just wanted to go back a little bit, talk about sort of attitudes and even personal journeys. Your Instagram account, you talk about being better, not necessarily being a better mom, but a better person and how we address and relate to people who have a disability. How has this journey been for you? Oh, that's a great question. I would say it's been a bit of a fast and furious one. Like I can tell you,

25:24

For example, like I think I said earlier, I think I spent the first decade of my daughter's life learning about disability through people that weren't disabled. And there's a lot of expertise to be had in those arenas, but what's missing is that lived experience. And when I started to pay attention to people who have disabilities, I just learned so much. I mean, you know.

25:46

the small but important things like language choices. I think I referred to myself as a special needs mom for the first 10 years of Kelsey's life and then have this awakening of like, oh, the disabled community really, generally speaking has no interest in those euphemisms like special needs and handicapable and differently abled. They're like, just say disabled. So the little things that matter.

26:09

The education I had regarding the importance of understanding that I am the parent of a disabled child and that is my lived experience, but I am not disabled myself. So to insert myself in the disabled narrative, like I know what I'm talking about, is not okay. Like I need to speak from my perspective and my perspective alone, but I think what can happen often to people happens to my daughter. Honestly, I probably do it to my daughter more than she likes, but I'm getting better where...

26:38

you become that voice. You say, I know what's best. I was sitting in a medical appointment and a doctor asked a question and I'm answering on behalf of Kelsey because that's my role. And she's looking at me going, it's not your body, mom, it's my body. And I'm like, yeah, good point. You answered the question. And that kind of thing. So that's been a big, big part of it for me. And I also think just to kind of tie it all together, it's just, it's a humility. It's a, as a,

27:06

as a Caucasian middle class white woman with an education, like I didn't have a real experience with the minority. I didn't really have lived experience through the lens of a minority group in our society. And then I had Kelsey come into my life and I got a real window into what that means. And does it mean I understand everything? No, but it's given me like an empathy and a humility about the experiences of so many other people in our world. And I...

27:33

I'm just so grateful for having had to look through that lens. And, you know, I'm just endlessly grateful. You know, I teach English and when I'm teaching what the word paradox means, I will often say it's something that makes sense but doesn't make sense. And that's just the truest sense of the word for me with disability is, you know, you'd never wish it on a person or a family. I'd never say, oh, I hope, but then at the same time.

27:59

I'm so grateful for having gotten to experience and be part of this. Maybe it's appropriate to just share a little story that was so powerful for me with my daughter. Oh, sure. So she asked me in all of this disability advocacy stuff, she asked me once, I would say within the last year, she said, Mom, why am I disabled? And I've told her over the years, there was brain damage that happened to you when you were born. It was a really traumatic birth.

28:29

I've explained it to her in the best way that she knows how. And what ensued after was she said, well, mom, when I have a baby, will my baby be disabled? And I said, oh, honey, absolutely not. It's not genetic. It's, you know, don't, no. And she started to cry. And I thought, oh my goodness, what have I said? What have I said? And I looked at her and I said, oh no, honey, your child, you're not gonna have a disabled child. And she looked at me, she's still crying her eyes out. And I stopped her and I said,

28:58

Ficalti, do you want your child to be disabled? And she looked at me and she nodded her head yes. And I was like, oh, of course you do. She's like, disability's awesome. I would be honored to have a disabled grandchild. And I'm finishing this conversation going, maybe if we're lucky, maybe you'd have a child with a disability. And I had this moment of, doesn't matter how much learning you do, like the deeply ingrained ableism that is in our society, it is so pervasive to the point where,

29:29

And this moment for me of just like, of course, she'd want to have a disabled child. She's going, I'm disabled. I'm awesome. Like, why would I? Of course. And, you know, so that was just a huge moment for me that kind of put all of this learning and my journey together going, I need to check, we all need to check our, and our, you know, implicit biases at the door and start to just open our eyes and think differently about all of this. So I'm just doing everything I can to help everybody in that journey. And absolutely. And from the perspective of a high school teacher, I mean, and, and

29:58

given what you've seen and what you've been through and in the education system, are society's attitudes getting better? Is inclusion working? Great question, yes. On a really high level, everybody's having conversations that we were not having a few years ago. I'll give you one quick example of the high school, from the perspective of a high school teacher, it was in my lunch, kids reading lunch in my room and.

30:21

you know, it's the melee of one shower and one girl stands up and I don't know the context but she looks at her friend she goes, oh he's a cisgendered white man he doesn't even know his privilege and then she like walks out of the room and I was like oh man in grade 11 I would not have had the language, or even social awareness to say something like that so

30:41

Yes, I think that we're having these conversations that allow young people to recognize these things. And I was really proud in that moment to hear a young person talk like that. But I'll also follow that very quickly with we're having these conversations, but disability still often gets left behind in those conversations, you know, like. And so I just, you know, when we talk about sexual diversity, gender diversity, body size, diversity, skin, like cultural, ethnic,

31:11

skin, color, diversity, all of it, disability isn't always part of that conversation. In fact, it's not part of that conversation very often and we really hope to change that, that it becomes part of that conversation. Yes, absolutely. That's vital. Do you have anything else to add today?

31:29

No, just that I'm grateful for connecting with you and appreciate you having me on your show today and these conversations are just so, so important. So I'm just really, really grateful and want to thank you. That's been fantastic having your insight. You have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. Our guest today has been Katie McMillan, founder of Kelo Inclusive Modeling Agency in Edmonton, Alberta. You can find them at keloinclusive.org. As she's mentioned,

31:57

They have clients from all over Canada. So if you've got the acting bug or the modeling bug, and you're part of the disability community, do reach out. Katie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure. I'm your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. Tune in next time. See you later.

B.C. is a leader when it comes to accessibility. Just ask The Rick Hansen Foundation's Brad McCannell. However, attitudes still need to shift in order to guarantee inclusion for everyone, and that means making noise so everyone is heard. 

TRANSCRIPT

DDA Talks Accessibility with Brad McCannell

00:05

Hello and welcome once again to DDA's encouraging abilities podcast. I am your host, DDA communications manager, Evan Kelly. Now one of the big topics we like to talk about is accessibility. It's such an important topic because many people don't realize that at some point in their life, they might find themselves with limited mobility, limited vision, hearing, even cognitive ability. It's going to happen to all of us. Joining us today is Brad McKennell. He has the experience.

00:31

uh... and a resume that's gonna take me a few minutes just to read so i'll try to do the abridged version now brad's career uh... inac access consulting began in nineteen ninety when he formed uh... canadian barrier-free design that cbfd and has created to fill the gap between the application of building code in the real needs of the community of people with disabilities he himself became a c six seven quadriplegic after a car accident on

00:59

So he does have his lived experience. He uses a wheelchair and a service dog on a daily basis. Today, he finds himself the vice president of access and inclusion for the Rick Hansen Foundation, a member of the International Paralympic Committee's Access Working Group, and was recently appointed as the director of the Accessibility Standards Council of Canada. Additionally, his consulting has been sought by the Vancouver International Airport, Airports Council International.

01:27

the project advisory panel of CSA housing standards and the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games. He was appointed to the newly struck BC technical committee on employment accessibility. And that was fairly recently. Now today at the Rick Hansen Foundation, he was tasked with developing an industry standard certification program that would be used as a guide to creating more accessible environments. Now that would be the Rick Hansen Foundation accessibility certification.

01:55

RHFAC, that's a rating program that has been rolled out nationally even to develop common methodology and common language for professionals working to do to develop access for people with disabilities in the built environment. He is, I'm not done, he is the recipient of the City of Vancouver's Access and Inclusion Award 2010 and the Canadian Paraplegic Association's Award of Distinction. Okay.

02:23

Brad, I think I'm done with that. Thank you very much for joining us today. Gosh, I'm exhausted. You're exhausted. It's quite a list, and it's quite an unbelievable list of accomplishments and awards. It's really, really impressive. Now, having been in the field of accessibility for almost 30 years, what are some of the major changes you've seen in BC's approach to accessibility? Well, first, let me thank you so much for this opportunity. It's a real pleasure to speak with you today.

02:53

I've been a professional access consultant for 27 years, but I've been a member of the community of people with disabilities for 43 years. So my experience is both personal and professional. And having said that, the difference is night and day in terms of the approach. I mean, British Columbia has been a leader in meaningful access for decades. I think it's important to recognize the history here. You know, most people don't even realize.

03:21

the history of leadership that we've shown here as a province and as people with lived experience. It started with the great Ed Desjardins, a personal hero of mine. This guy was something called G.F. Strong in 1948. That was the first spinal cord rehabilitation center in North America. So there's real history. Ed got the very first accessible parking space requirements written in the building code in Vancouver here in the early 70s.

03:50

I've hired this stuff for decades and I think understanding that and understanding our history is part of knowing why BC is a leader in the whole country in this issue. I think Sir Paul would need to be congratulated for the leadership in developing the environment, but in terms of changes in the approach, I would say the biggest change is there's a much better focus on inclusion now, understanding that wheelchair users, the focus has always been on wheelchair users.

04:18

and it may seem odd, probably for a wheelchair user, but gosh, no, we've dominated the discussion, we've dominated the codes, we've dominated the regulations. Now, if you ask somebody in the street about disability, the first thing that pops in their head is a wheelchair. The international symbol for people with disabilities is a wheelchair, and yet we're somewhere south of 40% of the population with disabilities.

04:41

So what's heartening to me is that discussion is now changing to really include people with hearing loss and people with impairment, and people in the neurodiverse community. That's a huge thing, but it's a much bigger challenge. Yeah, of course that would be. Now, do you think there are some places where BC needs to improve just off the top of your head? Where have we missed the mark a little bit?

05:01

Oh, well, it's really easy to poke holes in projects because everything was built using a code minimum access strategy. And as I said, if you're meeting code, you're not meeting the needs of the community. It's just vuln It's one of the biggest problems in the community is what we face in terms of the built environment is the idea that meeting code somehow makes you accessible. And don't just start, that's just not a reasonable equation.

05:31

and architecture schools don't teach accessibility, don't teach universal design. Museum schools, engineering, nobody thinks of it.

05:39

It's not part of the curriculum. It's very weird to me. I think you need a doctor trying to learn how to be a doctor without understanding nutrition. How can you know what to do if you don't know what goes into it kind of thing? No, no, exactly. Well, that's why the RHFAC was created, because we need that extra tool. The industry needs that tool. So tell me a little bit of how that certification, the Rick Hansen Foundation Accessibility Certification came about.

06:08

Well, we knew we needed a reference standard for the industry, but code wasn't cutting it. Code couldn't possibly see that. Our job was to tell people what's actually there and who it affects.

06:21

So we're not the code police. We don't come in here and tell you all the things you did wrong. And in fact, one of the critical parts of our program is to identify and celebrate access where it's there. Too often it's just taken for granted. So we want, part of our rating system is a section on innovation. So if you've done something really cool, we want to celebrate that. So the RxFAC is designed just to create a baseline specific to your facility.

06:47

It's a place to start. It's not an end, it's a beginning. You can't help you fix things unless you know they're broken. So how is the certification then sort of employed, if you will? Well, it's a process. To begin with, it's not another checklist. It's a rating system, it's a weighted scale that can only be administered by a person who's taking the RIT training and understand

07:17

the various lines. But the process is a skilled professional, a large FEC professional will come on site and use the rating system to literally go through your building and see what's there and on the weighted scale determine what level of access is being provided overall. And one of the most important keys to our process is that holistic approach. What's happening now is people are working on feature-based access. So

07:45

facility operator will grab a checklist from somewhere and they're everywhere. Everybody's got a checklist. I hate checklists. But they take the checklist and they run into the facility and they go to the washroom and they say, oh, look, we've got grab bars, check. We've got a lowered urinal, check. Paper towels in the right spot, check. Okay, well, you've got a pretty good washroom. And then they run over to the elevator and they say, oh, look, we've got a light colored floor, check. We've got handrails, check. We've got Braille symbols. Oh, it looks like we've got a pretty good facility.

08:14

No, you don't. You got a half piece in the wash, even a code elevated. Nobody checked the reception, nobody checked to see if someone could actually work there. Nobody checked if there was any kind of emergency egress for people with disabilities. It's looking at that whole experience. The RHFAC takes it from the moment you get out of your car or off a bus or just walking off the street. You go through the building, you work there, you operate there. It takes the whole experience of the user under consideration, not just whether you can go to the bathroom or not.

08:45

Now, when it comes to someone, say I'm a developer and I'm making a community center or something, and I get the Rick Hansen Foundation accessibility certification person coming in to check it out, am I obligated to then adhere to all the recommendations? Oh, that's one of the powers of the piece. You're not obligated to do anything. If it's designed to inform you on what the current status is exactly,

09:14

And so it's a process that professionalizes the delivery of accessible design to start with. It creates an inventory of access on the site. It creates incentives for building owners and operators. It places improvements into the long-term planning process. And most importantly, from my perspective, it normalizes access considerations as part of a normal design and operating process. The great thing about it is if you have an R-X,

09:42

reading done, you remain in control of that. We would never publish that. We would never take that information and use it outside. It's your information on your facility and it's designed to help you plan and move forward. Now, have you heard of any developers sort of pushing back against some of these ideas or changes? Oh, sure. Yeah. It's an industry that hates change of any kind. I mean, change always costs money.

10:08

And one of the problems we've got is as we increase the requirements in basic code and standards for the industry that can be perceived as just more regulations, more things they have to do. And what we try to help them with is the idea of the return on investment. This is where you do create accessible buildings and maybe more importantly how to change the culture within your organization to not see it as just more regulation.

10:36

and rather see it as an opportunity. And it's just a huge opportunity, both in terms of making money. We always say that a barrier to a person with a disability is a barrier to making a profit. But also, not just from a customer base, from a workforce perspective, everybody knows that the population is aging, but they're not equating that to the fact that their workforce is aging. And in order to keep that workforce working, changes are gonna need to be made in the built environment. So...

11:04

Best you know what your built environment is supplying right now.

11:10

And is there any other programs out there like this particular certification program or is this breaking new ground here and across the country? Oh, this is definitely new grounded and internationally as well. Most of all the solutions are code-based solutions. And that's problematic on a number of ways. Relying on codes, typically it takes an average of seven to 12 years to get a code changed.

11:38

in Canada, depending on where you are and who you are. And it's so common in fact, and it's so entrenched in the system, they have a name for it, it's called code cycle. So they're always 10 years behind, no matter what they do. And that's the nature of codes. And frankly, that's right and good because the industry needs that stability of code. What we're doing is coming in and saying, here's the real needs of the community. If you want to access...

12:04

you know, the tremendous work force that's available. We hear this all the time, watching the news, you watch an owner, oh, I can't find anybody to hire. Ringing their hands, touching their pearls, and they're, oh gosh, what are we gonna do? Well, 57% of our community's unemployed. Look, you can't find people to work for you. Where are you looking? The whole nature of this thing has to be...

12:28

When you make these changes, you're making changes that are profitable both on the customer side and the human side. Yes, absolutely. And that goes to my previous introduction. We're all getting older.

12:44

and arguably living longer and we might need to work longer. So these things need to be in place. Now we've talked a little bit about universal design. Is that really the way forward? Is that level of sort of perfection in your mind possible? Oh yeah, I mean, don't think of it as perfection. Just think of it as common sense.

13:08

Unquestionably, universal design is the way forward. With the caveat that the whole concept of universal design is an aspirational goal. These are principles to be followed. They're not hard inside of schools. So how that gets interpreted in the built environment is going to be different for every single site. Every built environment is unique. Every occupancy is different. It has to be recognized that the idea of fully accessible, when we hear it's laughable.

13:36

There's no such thing as fully accessible. You can't be fully accessible. You can't be accessible to all people with all disabilities and all occupancies at the same time. It's an unattainable dream. But what that leaves you with is setting target levels of accessibility, understanding who you are serving.

13:59

who your customers really are, who people with disabilities really are. And spoiler alert, it's not about a few wheelchair guys. Like you said before, everybody's gonna experience disability and so forth. It doesn't matter whether you do a face plant and you're a teenager and you end up in a wheelchair or you're 65 years old and you need a walker and a hearing aid. You will experience disability and really quickly. When, for how long? Yeah, absolutely. So how, so can a developer get,

14:26

get their own certification and then build? Or is it someone that's not in the company that has to come forward and do the certification? No, the only requirement is the person registering the rating on the registered state has to be an RHS distance professional. So for example, you could take the course and assess your own property.

14:54

Well, the sales safe on that for us is in the process. Once an RHFAC professional has posted something in the registry, it immediately goes to the CSA, CSA Outbreak Registry, the third party, and they vet it for accuracy. And then it goes to an adjudicator who looks at it and makes sure that the RHFAC professional wasn't this low and small. So you can't just say, hey, it's good old testing.

15:22

It goes in, our indicators look at it, they review the pictures, sometimes video as well, and they establish that yes, that is in fact a gold building, or yes, that is 80% on our scale. So that allows you to be able to assess your own building. And what's important for us there, we want as many people as possible to take the RITFAP training. That's the cultural shift we're looking for.

15:47

It wasn't enough just to create a bunch of access professionals. We've got access professionals all across the country. Really good ones. What we needed was to shift the actual existing culture, the existing industry, the existing architects, planners, and building inspectors, and help them understand the real built environment as a speak of disabilities and understand it's not just about a few wheelchairs.

16:13

And so the goal of the developer, whoever is doing building, is to get what you mentioned was a gold rating? Yeah, and that could be different from building to building. So in our program, if you get more than 80% of the available points, then you're in gold territory. Some people may get that because they're just exceptional for people with vision loss. Some people may get that because they're exceptional for people with hearing loss.

16:39

The object of the extra guide is to get more than 80% of the available points on our scale. And just by way of comparison, if you built a commercial space and followed the Ontario Building Code, accessibility provisions right to the letter, then you'd probably get up around 40% on our scale. So half on our scale, 60%.

17:03

So it has to be better than that, but getting to that level is not really difficult once you sort of look at the system and look at the low-hanging fruit, as we call it. So much of creating access is really easy, really inexpensive. It's just a matter of knowing that you need to do it. I want to switch gears a little bit, but is there anything else you'd like to add in terms of that sort of certification piece? Oh, I guess how important it really is.

17:32

It's a way of measuring how we're doing in terms of creating meaningful access. So it's a measuring tool, but the real power is the training courses. The great advantage we have is once we start showing professionals in the field barriers to people with disabilities, once they start seeing that, they can never stop.

17:55

And so it's really quite heartening because it really is. It's a total ITV experience when people are taking our course and then come out there exercising. And once they start seeing all that stuff, that I've got like a disciple of, I can move on to the next week because that's the culture of shift we're looking for. So I just implore people to take the training, whatever they can. I guess I should ask, for builders, developers, whoever, how do they, do they just get in touch with the Rick Hansen Foundation to get the course going?

18:26

Yeah, rickhanson.com, best place to go. There's lots of links there on accessibility. And there's kind of two levels. There's the base level, which is called Accessible Spaces 101. And that's for people who are interested in universal design. And I just want to understand that a little more. But there's also the professional course, which is the Rick Hanson Foundation's Festival Certification Program itself. And that's restricted to industry professionals, so architects, engineers, people with experience in the built environment.

18:54

And that's the professional side of the thing. But there's two ways to come in. The best portal of all is RickHanson.com. There's so much stuff on there. It's very educational. I actually lied. I do have another question. How has this been received across the country and globally? Well, I'm really, really pleased to say that it's been accepted quite well.

19:20

nationally, it's a process. We're actually, like I said earlier, changing an industry that doesn't have any kind of change. But what's happening is people are seeing the value in it. They're seeing how by using the RHSC, it focuses their energy and puts the whole process of accessibility into the normal design and planning process. It's that idea, if it's measurable, it gets fixed. If it's not measurable, it just becomes an anecdotal story.

19:49

creating the common language, creating common methodology means that we're all calling access the same thing, so it's measurable. That has found great footing across the country. And for example, the new, as you may be aware, the repairing and rebuilding the parliamentary precinct, parliament buildings in Ottawa and everything has to be read and read. They're going to use our RGFIC gold as their standard. It's that kind of traction that we're getting went across the country. Halifax is doing amazing things.

20:18

Vancouver's doing amazing things. So having that kind of uptake has been really heartening, but even more heartening is when we took the program to international conferences. And everybody said the same thing. They said, my gosh, nobody's doing this. Everybody's taking a code approach. And the problem with codes is, you know, it's an old joke. It's like the slogans will continue until morale improves.

20:44

You can't just keep making the clothes harder and harder than the penalty sufferer and topper without educating the industry. The industry is paying for all this. So rather than have them feel it's just, oh gosh, it's more regulations and more hassle, the opportunity here is to show them the opportunity to make money on this deal. How about they return on investment? What's in it for you? And it's not just all altruistic and feel-good stuff. It's dollars and cents.

21:14

That's fantastic. It sounds like you do an incredible job. So your history here in BC goes back obviously many years. You've been working on the 2010 Olympic Games as a consultant. Tell me a little bit about that. Oh, that was probably the high point of my career to be honest. It was, I'd gone to Beijing in 2008.

21:37

which was one of the largest international Paralympic Games events for participants. There were well over 4,000 athletes there. And that was a big undertaking. But to do that same thing in winter is a much different proposition. But Van Ock was fabulous. The Vancouver organizing committee called Van Ock. And when I approached them at the bed stage, and I said, we should include accessibility right from the very beginning there.

22:06

And to their credit, they got on board right away. But we were doing things at that event that never been done before in the Olympics. For example, on the downhill ski run, we were able to put 200 people with disabilities along that route, outside, watching the actual ski event, watching the high quads.

22:27

event-dependent quads and wheelchairs parked on the side of a mountain to watch an event. And it was fabulous. And we were able to do things unheard of in the presentation of the Winter Games in particular. And so for me, it all came down to the end when Jacques Rignes, who at the time was the head of the International Organizing Committee, and he always designated the games, each game, every game is the friendliest games or the most wonderful games or the best games.

22:56

He designated Vancouver's games as the most family-friendly games ever. And that's me. That's universal design. That's that idea that if we can make it work and face and fund for young people and old people, everything else in the middle will work itself out. And we were able to do that in unprecedented terms. It was a huge success for me. Wow, that must make you feel quite proud.

23:24

So how does your work with the Rick Hansen Foundation differ from your work with the Accessibility Standards Canada Board? Ah, well that's, I love the apples and oranges, that the ASC, Accessible Standards Canada, is mission to design standards to support building folks across the country, and the idea is to get federally regulated.

23:50

businesses, operations to align to this code. And then they get the provinces to align to that again. So we have a standard consistent messaging across the country. And that is important as a code approach. But as I said earlier, that's only half the problem. We need strong codes, we need strong enforcement and we need significant families for people who don't follow the code. You need the big stick, but that by itself won't get it done.

24:16

If you want real change, you have to shift the culture. You have to get people to understand who this is about. It's not about a few wheelchair guys. It is about you, your mom, your family. Because everybody's going to experience this ability at some level. So making the built environment work is the absolute key to everything. The need for accessible transportation is lessened if there's no acceptable destination. And if you can't get in a building, then the best employment equity program in the world won't work if I can't.

24:46

I can't get into buildings with a lot of people. Getting this built environment sorted out is a single step. But it takes two things. It takes really strong codes, but it also takes an educated industry. An industry that understands your put-on investment and understands that this is a huge opportunity. This isn't more regulation. This isn't onerous. This is a chance to cash in. So some of this barrier breaking is just...

25:13

the changing of attitudes i mean according to your linkedin bio you say the biggest barrier to success for people with disabilities is the overall attitude of society the society's assumption because you have a disability it means you can't achieve as much are we are uh... society's attitudes getting better is inclusion working all yeah it's because it's becoming personal people are seeing it at home you know we did in angus we call

25:41

In the past, it was, oh yeah, taxes is good, I think it's good for those people, it's good for someone else. This was the first time that 30% of the respondents came back and said that they saw it in their own lives. They saw the house that they planned to retire in, when they looked at it again, realized it's nothing but tears. And so people are starting to take it personally at that level and that's where the real change is coming from. Disability taxes roughly 50% of the population today.

26:10

Today, it's not something that's going to happen down the road. We're not promising things in the private. You know, it's interesting how we get to that number. It's, you know, right now 24% of the population reports having a significant disability. And the key word there is reports, because there's tens of thousands of people who don't report their disability for a lot of really good reasons.

26:33

But you know, let's just take the 24% per second. Every one of us has at least one other person in our lives. Mother, father, sister, brother, neighbor, lover, best friend, even if it's a paid caregiver, even if it's a paid lover, we all have at least one other person in our life that also benefits from an accessible environment. And that's whether it's because it's easier for me, therefore it's easier for them.

27:00

It's also safer for them to help me, it's a better environment for them to assist in. And they remain able-bodied people instead of hurting themselves, getting in and out of the bathroom with them. And so, that's where the payoff is. And it sounds easy to accomplish. It sounds like just changing that attitude and changing our approach to things is not as difficult as people would think.

27:25

No, no, it's just what the key to it all is, is conversation, conversations like this one, helping people understand what access is really all about. And the idea that it's about a few wheelchair guys, and we fight that every day. Every presentation, I kind of start with that, just to help people learn to stand that we're not talking about a few wheelchair guys.

27:50

Now, I guess the one thing that's sort of been highlighted in the news a lot lately though, in terms of industries making changes, is airlines. There's been news stories about people having their wheelchairs lost or damaged beyond repair, and some of these wheelchairs are really expensive, like three, five thousand dollar wheelchairs. As a consultant, so like what sort of policies would you like to see in place to ensure that this doesn't happen?

28:20

Well, first off, your estimation on the cost of wheelchairs is way low. I have a power chair and it's $38,000. Wow. And that's pretty typical. So people who are vent dependent, people who are vent dependent have much more expensive chairs. And that's why it's so critical when a piece gets damaged.

28:42

Yeah, I think the latest piece I saw just the other day, somebody destroyed a guy's wheelchair, and they gave him what we call an active duty lightweight. It's the airport chair, it's a little aluminum thing. They cost about 600 bucks. So, you know, my chair is 38,000, that's about, that's a lot. But they give you that chair and they're thinking, okay, he's got a wheelchair. What's the problem? The problem is, you know, wheelchairs are very specific.

29:11

You know, they're prescribed for you. The dimensions are exact. How they hold you, where your back is to be, where you're vent dependent, how all that works. It's all critically and personal. You know, if you buy a wheelchair, I buy a wheelchair for $38,000. If I tried to sell it now, I'd get raising $1,000 for it. Because it's made for me. It's not made for anybody else.

29:31

And so it's understanding it. And so the airlines have got to figure this out. Now, fortunately, there's a real big movement. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. It's called the All Wheels Up. And it's a group of people who recognize airlines wrecking equipment has become way too common. I think the last that I heard was if you bring a mobility device on an airplane, there's a 20% chance it would be harmed or destroyed in that trip. So that's ridiculous.

30:00

I don't know the airlines have to understand how critical these are these are just like something you just replace well No, exactly. They're an extension of you aren't they like that's not just a chair. Oh Yeah, and they're not interchangeable Like I Rick Hansen's my boss. I can't use this book here But I was I was making there's a lot of Excuse me. There's a effort called all wheels up and that's what they'd find was they

30:29

We figured out a way you can take your wheelchair right on the airplane and just use the same kind of attaching device that using cars Whether it's a Q-strain or a strap-down system. So you'd stay in your own chair and you get on the airplane that way That would eliminate Giving up your equipment it would give people their own seating and a long trip which is really important for most of us

30:51

But it's an idea that's really come. The thing that held it back for so long was there was no crash testing available, so we wouldn't know the real results. Well, that's now been completed. So it's a completely viable thing. Now the hard part is to get airlines to give up the first cabin and move it to the back. Because the only way to work on an airplane is we can get in the first slash, but I can sit in the front. I think it's coming, I think it's inevitable. I don't think the airlines can keep working on equipment like this.

31:21

I mean, they got enough problems without wrecking our stuff. Yeah. Well, it seems like there's enough talk to moving this stuff forward, so that's good. You know, you talk about your chair being worth $38,000, which is unbelievable. Now Canada's been moving forward on the proposal. Yeah, I think that's it. I think people who are sort of like typically developed or haven't suffered injuries and then lack their mobility don't quite understand how costly it can be to have a disability.

31:51

So with that said, what are your feelings on the proposed Canada disability benefit that's still inching its way through the government? Well, inching its way through indeed. But it's a complete game changer. Like you say, people don't understand how much it costs to have a disability. At the risk of being way too personal, I could ask you how much does it cost you to go to the bathroom and pee?

32:19

Not a whole lot. Cost me five bucks. Really? Every time I go. Six hundred dollars a month I have to spend in catheters. And that's not covered by anybody. That's out of your own pocket. Wow. You know, if you want to go buy a Honda minivan, it's going to cost you around thirty-five thousand bucks. But if I want to go buy an accessible Honda minivan, it costs around ninety thousand bucks.

32:43

If I want to go talk to a lawyer, all I have to do is pay the lawyer. But if you're deaf, you also have to pay for an interpreter. And on top of that, just to add insult to injury, you have to pay GST on that. You're being taxed on your need for an interpreter. So all these hidden expenses around people with disabilities are having to pay.

33:06

having a reliable income, having a little more in the pot to work with, you know, windfall benefits for people. This is survival. And so it's critically important and yes, it's inching its way through and it's so vexing to see how long it's taking to, to me, remedy the obvious. Yeah. That's, that's, you know, that just brings that right down to reality. It's, it's, it's kind of scary.

33:33

So we're just about wrapping up here, Brad. What can the general public do to really foster an inclusion and accessibility from your point of view? Oh, just demand more. Don't go in the back door. If the front door is not accessible, don't go there. Don't go to noisy restaurants. Insist on alternate formats like large print and plain language for documents. Don't be quiet about it.

34:02

You got to make sure the rest of them knows why you don't want to go there. You have to make sure that employer if he's offering the position and not offering alternate formats for the hiring of the service, they're aware of both the legal and regulatory pitfalls, but also just how they're missing it. And I find that when this pointed out most often people go, oh my gosh, I never even thought of it. Well, on the one hand, it's terrible because you never even thought of it. You know, like.

34:29

with a thing about people with disabilities, right? Where World Health Organization, he says there's 1.3 billion people with disabilities in the world. That's a bigger market than China. Yeah, it is. So how can you keep ignoring it like that? It's just so incredibly vexing. Yeah, there's buying, there's a ton of buying power there, right? Businesses need to learn. And that's that return on investment we were talking about earlier. Understanding those kinds of things and how, yeah.

34:59

We've got to stop being quiet about it. You've got to start demanding more access and not putting up with this status quo stuff because status quo is just, we don't have any status at all. No more, it's a nice guy. He's trying to get loud. Yeah, exactly.

35:18

So it's, you know, I mean you sounded very, very happy with the progress that British Columbia in particular is making in terms of accessibility and inclusion, but sometimes on a smaller scale, like you're talking about restaurants, it feels like there's still quite a long way to go.

35:37

Well, yeah, most of it's education, but it's also the financial reality. There's a perception out there that creating access is expensive. And it's just not. It's probably the most of the stuff we call it low hanging fruit. You could do so much to make your place more user friendly, just by doing simple things, simple things like having a hearing loop at reception desk or meeting with anybody with a hearing aid, that's a game changer.

36:02

It's a thousand dollars at the installation, it's cheap. Using wave finding, when people talk about wave finding, they think we're talking about signage, and signage is really important. But there's other wave finding things you can do that reduce stress and make things really easy for people. You can use color, you can use texture, you can use scent, you can use sound.

36:24

you can use all these things. We had one problem, this goes back a few years, but the client's office was in a grey building, in a grey door, a grey entrance, everything was grey. People were busy, they had a hard time finding the door. So we planted lavender and then they knew where they were by the smell. So there are all kinds of things you can do that are really simple and really cheap. You know, we call them a can of paint.

36:52

One of the most vexing things in our community is the building code works really, really hard at getting people with disabilities into buildings and doesn't care at all about getting them out in an emergency. There is no requirement for emergency egress to be accessible. So the next time you're standing in front of an elevator and you see that little plaque

37:16

Where's the little plaque that tells me what to do? In case of fire, good luck sucker. You know, good... So it's that whole idea that... It's a full circle here. Getting me in the building isn't enough. It can't get me out. Yeah, and to me, you know, from someone who works in communications, I think it's... If I was to go into business, and I could market my business as accessible...

37:42

you know, in inside and out, that would be a great draw for people. You'd make money. Yes, you would. Yes, you would. And we, you know, we did another Angus repo and we found that already today, 30% of the population is making accessible business already today. It's not future stuff. And so it's remarkable to me that there is any kind of resistance to this. If I'm in the, if I'm in the industry, if I'm building any kind of public...

38:10

shopping malls or anything. I don't know how you could not put this at the top of your list because 50% of the population is going to be affected by it. 30% are already deciding. Can anybody decide that they can close their doors to 30% of the population? That's not possible. That would just be the wrong decision, that's for sure.

38:29

Now it's much harder in your business. Communication is really meaningful access. Communication is a tough job. Well, yeah, I mean... So many levels of it. Yeah, and you know, we're building a brand new website right now for DDA, and we're ensuring that everything about it is accessible. We're adding some widgets that make it, that give people lots of options. So it's actually quite a good experience, good learning experience for myself even, so. Yeah, and even the plain language movement.

38:57

getting documents so that they're not so complicated and that people can understand the means of living. Now, there's lots of people that, you know, that's a specific need for, but that's one of those things that everybody would benefit from. Absolutely. And we all need to keep that in mind when we're doing documents and putting them on the website. The other big thing is to create another ASL window so that if you have a, if you're introducing a program, for example, and you want to reach out to the community, having a little window there

39:27

and click on it and they get an ASL interpretation of what's there, it's a game changer. Yep, absolutely. And that's true inclusion. Yep, yep. We will get there, Brad. We will absolutely get there. Anything else to add today? Oh, no, I just want to thank you for the time. As I said earlier, this is the kind of conversation that we all need to have. And just to recognize that it's an opportunity, you know. Right now.

39:56

This whole idea of able-bodied males, the design, the building code.

40:02

the design parameters are all built around 18 to 55 year old male. That's just got to stop and as soon as you point that out, as soon as the architects, planners, owners, operators, as soon as they see that, they're not connecting the dots. But as soon as they do, it's wonderful what happens. So thank you for helping me connect the dots. My pleasure. Brad, it was a pleasure having you.

40:28

Well, you know, this is a very deep well that we kind of brushed over. But almost any one of your questions, we could probably do a show on. Exactly right. Maybe another job. Absolutely. We'll do a few more. Okay. So while you have been listening to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast, our guest today has been the intrepid Brad McAnnell, the Rick Hansen Foundation's Vice President of Access and Inclusion. Brad, thanks again. I am your host, Evan Kelly. We'll see you next time.

Inspired by an accident ten years ago that left her brother with a life-changing intellectual disability, a young B.C. artist creates a book about inclusion. DDA chats with Invermere's Veronika Kitzul.

TRANSCRIPT

His Name is Nicholas

00:05

Welcome to DDA's Encouraging Abilities podcast. I'm your host, DDA Communications Manager, Evan Kelly. One of DDA's biggest missions is to create a community where everyone is included and where everyone belongs, regardless of ability. Sometimes that comes down to simply supporting and advocating for those who have the same mission. Today, we are talking with Veronica Kitzel, who lives in Invermere, B.C. Now, Veronica is an artist with a huge amount of talent.

00:33

especially working with charcoal as a medium. Now currently she works as a social media manager and artist by day and bartender by night. And while she is the messenger here, she isn't the story, her brother Nicholas is. When her brother was eight years old, he was in an accident in 2012 that changed the course of his life with an intellectual disability. We know that when someone has a disability, society makes it hard for them to be included. So...

01:00

Veronica wrote and illustrated a kids book to help foster a sense of inclusion in people at a young age. The book is called His Name is Nicholas is now available as a teacher's aid. Welcome to the show, Veronica. Thank you so much. So when did you get your start in the art world? Is this something you're currently pursuing as your your main profession?

01:26

I started drawing in a junior high and learned about art through high school and university, receiving a minor in fine arts with my science degree. Since graduating, I've been working part-time as an artist as more of a side business than a full-time profession. I hope to always find time for art in the future, but I also hope to go back to school for something healthcare related like dentistry or naturopathic medicine.

01:50

naturopathic medicine, that's interesting. Now so, Art, is this something that you use your voice with? Is this something that drives you to make a change in the world?

02:02

Oh, definitely. The beauty of being an artist means that you have the ability to reach a wider audience and communicate visually in ways that other people cannot. There's nothing wrong with doing art for fun or for the challenge. But when you focus on a subject or a message and get the chance to exhibit it, you can show people a perspective that they may have never considered before. So where do you draw a lot of your inspiration from?

02:28

It depends on the project. So when I want to develop my skills, I choose a subject that I find challenging. For example, water, reflections, and glass are difficult to capture. So I've taken inspiration from work as a bartender and drawn a couple processes in mixology. When I was in university and had free range to create whatever I wanted, I drew inspiration from healthcare, combining my scientific and artistic interests, as well as Nicholas. So for example, for a digital art class,

02:58

to give hope to people facing brain injuries in Canada. I also created an installation piece with drawings of Nicholas and his story. They were surrounded by a cover with the disability symbol cut out of it. And I did this because I felt like his wheelchair all people see when they first meet him. So I wanted people to physically go up and look through and look past that symbol to learn more about him, his story, his personality, et cetera.

03:28

I'd just say overall, I'd say healthcare, my brother, and moving to the mountains have been my biggest inspiration. So before we start talking about Nicholas and the book, where can people see erot? Can they buy it?

03:41

Absolutely. Here in Invermere, they can see it at Black Star Studios, Beginnings Restaurant, and Ular Bar. Online, people can see my work on Facebook, Instagram, and direct message me through social media if they're interested in buying a piece or commission. Well, that's great. We'll get a little bit into more into connecting with you later on. So, right from the start here, tell us a little bit about your brother.

04:04

for sure. So growing up, Nicholas was always an active kid. He would rather go bike riding, play soccer or play with Lego instead of playing video games. He was well behaved, received good grades in school. And yeah, he was overall just a great kid.

04:19

When he was eight years old, he had an accident at school. So the teachers required him to wear a hall pass on a non-breakaway lanyard when he went to the washroom. The floor had been slippery and he fell. The lanyard somehow got caught on the bathroom door latch. Unable to free himself and laugh for a better term, he was essentially strangled until another classmate saw him in the bathroom stall and informed the teacher that something seemed wrong.

04:48

So from that, he received an anoxic brain injury because the oxygen was cut off to his brain. The doctors at the hospital didn't give us much hope. They said he'd be abuturable in a bed, on drugs for the rest of his life. They implied that cutting off life support and organ donation would be better than living with no quality of life. Thankfully, my parents did not take no for an answer, especially my mom. She would stay up late every night researching alternative treatments and eventually weaned him off all medications.

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So for several years she quit her job just to take care of Nicholas and take him to therapies and treatment. Today, he's still wheelchair bound and has a bit of trouble communicating, but he can say some words and he has surpassed every low expectation that the Canadian doctors have given him. That's pretty unbelievable. I mean, what a testament to your mother.

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That's incredible. So, how old were you when he had this accident? I was 14 years old when he had the accident. And so when that happened, how did that make you feel? I felt very powerless and I wanted to take his place because he'd always been such a good kid and he deserved the world.

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He deserved everything that my older brother and I experienced, but instead it kind of felt like his childhood was taken from him. I still remember the morning of the accident. He was on his way to the bus stop when I just got out of bed. I thought to myself, I should say goodbye to Nicholas. Oh, that's okay. I'll see him after school. And I have never regretted anything more in my life than when he didn't come home that day.

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He was in the hospital for four months and I was still young. So people didn't really know what to tell me. They said he was in this half coma sort of thing. His eyes were open, but they weren't moving much and he could cry, but he couldn't speak. So the hardest part was coming to the realization that he wasn't in a coma. He wasn't going to magically like wake up someday because he was already awake. He had just lost his eyesight and the ability to speak. And it was going to be a long road to recovery.

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Well, that must have been quite devastating for your family at the time. Mm-hmm. No, so tell me a little, I mean that was, you know, back in 2012, you were already a teenager at this point, so what was it like growing up from then with a sibling with a disability? It's a really interesting question that I don't think I've been asked before.

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Everything changed after the accident. It started with a family meeting with my parents, myself, and my older brother, Jacob. They said they wanted to create the best quality of life possible for Nicholas, which meant they wouldn't be there for us as often anymore as they had to focus their energy and resources on him. Jacob and I understood because we also wanted the best for Nicholas, and so we grew up quickly because of that. We put Nicholas's needs first, which meant helping with his feeding, therapies, et cetera, before completing our homework.

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for our own school trips because adaptive equipment is incredibly expensive. Adapting to wheelchair accessible life is difficult and you don't realize how truly blessed you are with mobility until you experience life without it. I felt that no one really understood the extent of the changes we made except for other families in similar situations. Right.

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That makes sense. Now, studies also show that siblings who grow up with someone with a disability become more empathetic. Do you feel that about yourself?

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I think it's definitely made me a more empathetic person. I would have never understood what wheelchair accessible life entailed until I was part of it. I think it also made Jacob and I more grateful, independent, and mature. It inspired me to volunteer for Special Olympics and work as a personal carrier for several years. Oh wow, good for you. So now getting back to why we're here, we're talking about your book, His Name is Nicholas. What inspired you to write that?

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or I should say illustrated. I know your mom was the one who actually wrote the copy for the book. So what what brought this inspiration to where it is today?

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Yeah, so I was doing a self-led project with Special Olympics based on spreading the word on inclusion. So naturally, I took inspiration from my family and the fact that it really bothered us when kids stared at Nicholas. Additionally, I took a literature for youth class in university and remembered learning about the CCBC diversity statistics on children's books. In 2019, they found that only 3.4% of books had a character with a disability.

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the population of people with disabilities is much higher. There's a huge under-representation of that and as well as a lack of exposure and integration in schools, which is why I want to create a tool that could help teach kids about inclusion. So where, but when you look at society as a whole, how do you think we're doing in terms of inclusion, inclusion rather here in 2023?

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Um, from my family, my family's perspective, not great because after Nicholas's accident, I saw him lose all his friends. People stared at him. People no longer talk to him in an age appropriate way.

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They would use baby talk when he was a teenager and that really bothered me. I think there are certain organizations that do a great job at it, including their members with disabilities, but overall there just seems to be a lack of understanding in the general public. Yeah. In bigger cities tend to do a better job of making places accessible as well. And Canada seems a bit behind compared to the states because we've traveled there a lot for Nicholas's treatments.

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So like, for example, we learned that every public pool in the States must have a lift, which is not a rule here. And we noticed way more accessible parking spaces, walking trails, ramps, stuff like that, that makes wheelchair accessible life a lot easier. Wow. Now, your mom helped with the writing. Tell us how that went.

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Well, first, I just want to mention how she is a saint for agreeing to write it in her non-existent free time. She works full time as a teacher, then she goes home and does mixed therapies, cleaning, and evaluates the practicum students that help out. Overall, it was a great collaborative experience, though. I gave her the illustrations with a rough idea of the storyline and things I wanted to include. She wrote the book and we would video call to discuss it. My mom's colleague, who is an English teacher and has experience with special education,

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the book and since I wanted this book to be a tool for teaching it was a great asset to have two very experienced teachers involved. Yeah that is really good. So where do you want this book to be seen? What is your intended audience?

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My intended audience is elementary students because they're curious and probably have the least exposure to and understanding of disabilities. We found that they also stare at Nicholas because they're curious and often don't have anyone who can explain that he's not that different or how to interact with him.

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I didn't have an official publisher for the book because I didn't want to sell it. My goal was just to distribute it to schools, teachers, anyone willing to use it. And honestly, making it on this podcast has allowed me to bring it further than I imagined. And I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. And we're happy to do this for you. And the fact that you're...

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doing this all for free is absolutely amazing because you're an extremely talented person. So what has the reaction been so far? Have you managed to get it into some classrooms at the moment?

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Yeah, the reactions have been really heartwarming. Honestly, I have gotten a ton of support from my teacher friends who want to use the book in their classrooms. The local libraries and schools have taken it in and the local newspaper wrote about it. From that article, people with intellectual disabilities have actually reached out to read the book as well as share it with others because they were just so excited to see a project like that. Um, it also made it into my mom's school. She was a guest speaker at a big celebration of learning event.

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and I got to go in and help her answer questions. That's excellent. And so are there more books like this to add in your future? Or maybe a Nick... I mean Nicholas is older, he's older now. What's he up to today? Is there like a book about Nicholas and his later teen years as he approaches 20? Maybe for a bit of an older audience?

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I'm not sure about books in particular, but if another opportunity arises where I can utilize my artistic skills to spread awareness on inclusion, I will absolutely take it. Nicholas right now is still in high school, and now that it's winter, he's doing a bunch of activities like cab skiing on Sunday, which is actually one of the illustrations in the book.

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Stuff like that, just anything that we can, or anything that allows him to do the sports and activities that he once loved. That sounds really great. Now, just back to Nicholas for a moment, what sort of role did he have in the process of putting this book together?

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We did want to get his approval, but he can only answer yes or no questions. So after it was written, we read out each page to him and asked him if it was correct. And each time he looked deep in thought and then said, yeah. There's also a page that mentions how he enjoys swimming and splashing his mom in the face. And so he laughed when we read that out to him. So I think we have his approval. That's good. Anything else to add?

15:02

to this podcast before we wrap it up? I just want to remind everyone that this is a free tool that anyone may use to teach about inclusions and intellectual disabilities. At the back, there is a discussion section for parents and teachers to use with their kids so that they can discuss the topic and think critically about it. Anyone is welcome to contact me for a digital copy and print or distribute it as they like.

15:27

You meant there's a mention in the back of the book about the Special Olympics BC. Now you talked about that a little bit earlier. Were they involved somehow in the production of the book as well?

15:37

Yeah, so Special Olympics BC runs a program called the Youth Engagement Project. So I was accepted as a volunteer to run my own self-led project with the goal of spreading the word on inclusion. So they gave us online training on how to run a project like budgeting and engaging stakeholders, stuff like that. And my work was a product of the Youth Engagement Project.

16:01

So can people find the PDF version through Special Olympics as well? Yes, definitely. So on Special Olympics BC's website, if you go to their youth engagement project page and go to the 2021 to 2022 projects, my name is in there and there is a link to the PDF version.

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You've been listening to Developmental Disabilities Association's Encouraging Abilities podcast. Our guest today has been Veronica Kitzel, author and artist of a new book called His Name is Nicholas. The book is about including people with disabilities. It's available through the artist herself as well as online PDF versions for anybody interested in using it as a teacher's resource. It is free. To find out more, you can contact Veronica herself.

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at veronikakitzel at gmail.com. That's Veronica with a K, last name, K-I-T-Z-U-L at gmail.com. Veronica, thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. Thank you so much for having me. We'll see you next time. I'm Evan Kelly.

Ableism is an issue. From inadequate designs to being left out or looked down upon, ableism prevents many from being included in everyday life. The Office of the BC Human Rights Commissioner and Disability Alliance BC have joined forces to address the issue and created a new awareness campaign called Rewrite the Rules.

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Ableism Prompts a New Awareness Campaign

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Accessibility affects many people, and even one day, perhaps yourself. In this Encouraging Abilities Podcast, we connected with Dr. Jaimie Borisoff who runs a development program at BCIT with an eye on designing better wheelchairs and other adaptive equipment that helps people stay included.

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A Chat with Dr. Jaimie Borisoff: On the Forefront of Wheelchair Design

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Accessibility should not be an afterthought. Buildings and spaces should not be designed for people with no disabilities only. Because, as Karin Pasqua of Meaningful Access Consultants says, we are all going to be affected at some point in our lives by accessibility issues. With that in mind, we need to look at design as universal before shovels hit the dirt.

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Transforming the World One Building at a Time with Karin Pasqua

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The Developmental Disabilities Association's Executive Director Alanna Hendren talks about the association's 70th anniversary, where the organization has been, and where it's headed in the 21st century. A staunch advocate for people with developmental disabilities, Alanna Hendren has been involved in this sector for over 40 years.

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70 Years of Doing the Impossible

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