This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

This episode is part of the original archive of Encouraging Others Through Christ, formerly titled About The Church.

This podcast began in 2006, during a season when I was still rooted in evangelical Christianity. I was actively involved in traditional ministry, navigating leadership roles, theological shifts, and the early stirrings of what would later become a full awakening.

At the time, I spoke with conviction—sometimes bold, sometimes clumsy—about faith, church, identity, and transformation. Many of these episodes reflect beliefs, paradigms, and frameworks I no longer hold today. Others carry language I wouldn’t use now, but they still pulse with the sincerity and devotion that has never left me.

Rather than deleting or hiding these early episodes, I’ve chosen to leave them here as sacred breadcrumbs—evidence of a journey, not a finished product.

Over time, I’ll be updating each episode in this archive with:

If you’ve found your way here while I’m still in the process…

Thank you for listening with grace.

And thank you for walking this unfolding with me.

Cliff

Episode 018 – Why I Hate the Church (Part 5 – Bonus Interview with George Barna)

Originally released: November 2006

This episode is different.

I had just finished a four-part series reflecting on George Barna’s book Revolution. It stirred up something deep in me—questions, courage, conviction. But I realized: you’ve heard me process. Now it’s time to hear the author himself.

So I’m sharing, in full, an interview between Gabe Lyons and George Barna, originally aired on the Catalyst Podcast.

What you’ll hear is:

This episode may stir you.

It may affirm what you already know.

It may ignite something new.

But more than anything, I hope it reminds you:

You’re not crazy.

You’re not alone.

And God is still moving.

I believed people needed to hear Barna directly.

I believed his voice carried clarity and conviction.

I believed his research affirmed the very things I had been discerning in my spirit.

I believed the Church was being re-formed by people bold enough to follow their knowing.

And I believed this conversation could be a spark for others.

I now know that every voice has its moment.

But resonance is timeless.

Barna’s interview didn’t start a revolution in me.

It named what had already begun.

Today, I don’t need experts to validate my path.

But I still honor the ones who speak with clarity, courage, and love.

And I believe this episode still has something to say.

Because sometimes, the best thing a leader can do…

is listen.

Because there’s value in hearing someone else articulate what your soul has whispered for years.

Because this conversation gave voice to the millions walking out—not from apathy, but from hunger.

And because the revolution didn’t die.

It just got quieter.

Wiser.

And more aligned.

Cliff