The 2050 Net Zero carbon target challenges all of us across the globe. Manufacturing and Production companies that are part of the hydrocarbon value chain are particularly challenged in driving their operations toward Net Zero.

LyondellBasell Chief Procurement Officer Jennifer Jewson and Artemis Energy Partners CEO Bobby Tudor join Emerson’s Denka Wangdi and me in this special podcast to discuss the importance of collaboration and engagement in tackling the Net Zero challenge.

Learn more about some of the initiatives underway by visiting the LyondellBasell Sustainability section on their website, the Carbon Neutral Coalition and Houston Energy Transition Initiative websites, and the Sustainability section on Emerson.com.

Jim: Hi, everyone. I’m Jim Cahill and welcome to another “Emerson Automation Experts” podcast. In today’s special podcast, I’m joined by Jennifer Jewson, LyondellBasell’s chief procurement officer, Bobby Tudor, retired founder and CEO of Tudor, Pickering, Holt & Co., and currently the CEO of Artemis Energy Partners, and Denka Wangdi, Emerson’s director of sales for sustainability and growth. We’ll be discussing some of the sustainability-related initiatives they are advancing. Welcome, Jennifer, Bobby, and Denka.

Denka: Thanks, Jim.

Jennifer: Thank you.

Bobby: Thanks so much.

Jim: Well, it’s great that you’re all here. We’re excited to have you share your perspectives. I guess, Bobby, let me begin with you. You have a vast background, including beyond what I said in our introduction being currently Chairman of the Houston Energy Transition Initiative, a consortium of Houston’s leading energy companies working to shape the region’s energy transition strategy. Also, you are the board member for the Carbon Neutral Coalition and several other organizations, and other various positions. That must keep you pretty busy, all that going on.

But let’s start by asking you about the Carbon Neutral Coalition and its goals.

Bobby: Jim, the Carbon Neutral Coalition is a coalition, very broad-based coalition of stakeholders in Texas. It’s a Texas-centric proposition. It was put together by Corby Robertson of the Quintana Corporation. And the aim of the Carbon Neutral Coalition is to organize and sort of unite a very broad base of stakeholders in the incumbent oil and gas industry in Texas who are focused on driving the movement of the industry towards true carbon neutrality. And that would include upstream producers, midstream gatherers, downstream users, mineral rights owners, ranchers, landowners broadly, environmentalists, etc. So, a very broad-based group of stakeholders.

And the desire at the end of the day is to have a oil and gas business in Texas that is, in fact, carbon neutral. And so, all of the things that might help get us there are the focus of the Carbon Neutral Coalition’s. That would include carbon capture, use, and storage, CCUS, it would include regulations around methane detector measurement and capture, it would include the elimination of routine flaring, etc. So, it’s really focused specifically on what I call the incumbent oil and gas business in Texas and a drive to make it carbon-neutral over time.

Jim: Well, that certainly sounds like a large challenge for a hydrocarbon or carbon-based business to become carbon neutral in all of that. But I know we’ve got a lot of people here in the state energized to take on that challenge. Jennifer, you have an amazing background with a PhD in inorganic chemistry and an MBA and a lot of experience in your background from perusing LinkedIn, research, chemistry, consulting, feedstock, unit acquisitions, and overall procurement for materials and services.

I guess with that broad experience, can you share how LyondellBasell is advancing its sustainability initiatives to drive towards net zero?

Jennifer: Sure. So, we actually just announced an updated version of our initiatives. And so, we had originally said we were going to reduce our Scope 1 and Scope 2 greenhouse gas footprint by 30% by 2030. Well, we just raised that to 42%. And we are joining the Science-Based Target initiatives as well so that they can help look at the programs that we have at the sites to make sure that they’re vetted and they’re using the latest technologies.

So, we look at the sites, so that’s Scope 1 and Scope 2. We’ve also announced a Scope 3 target, which is a reduction of 30% by 2030 as well. And so, with all the sites, we have, our carbon reduction programs in place, and we are looking at things like alternative fuels, renewable energy, electrification, so all of those things as we create these roadmaps by the sites.

We signed six actually virtual power purchase agreements in the U.S. this past year and two in Europe. And so, we have a target there where we’d like to have at least 50% of our electricity through renewable by 2030, and then at least 75% of our energy, which should be low carbon. So, we’re working on that as well, and so, for electricity.

So, with all the power purchase agreements we did, we actually combined, it actually could power, I think it’s 370,000 homes. So, it’s exciting for us. So, we drive towards 2030, and then we do have a goal of net zero by 2050. And so, it is very important that we keep on these roadmaps and keep driving the sites.

Jim: Well, congratulations on driving an even higher target for 2030 and all the great things you’re doing so far to move yourself down that path towards net zero.

Denka, let me ask you to share ways Emerson is helping our customers, like LyondellBasell, to achieve their sustainability targets.

Denka: Yeah. Sure. Thanks, Jim. And I just wanted to preface by thanking Jennifer and Bobby for joining us today. So the platform for Emerson essentially is…it’s almost in three manners. It’s “greening of,” essentially how do we keep our own house in order. And it means improving our carbon footprint across 187 facilities. Our “greening by,” which is essentially the technologies that we serve companies like Lyondell with our solutions, our technology that really help them along their sustainability journey.

And then the “greening with,” which is almost the most powerful. It’s, like, the understanding of the ecosystem whether it’s working with universities or the Carbon Neutral Coalition, or really partnering and making sure that we are embedded into that ecosystem. So, the greening of essentially is a smaller mix. It means that we can check off our Scope 1, 2, and 3 net zero targets, which is for the year of 2045, and our Scope 1 and 2, which is for 2030.

Now, we’re far along the ways to making sure our Scope 1 and 2 is met, but when it comes to vendor selection or supply selection, Lyondell and all of our other customers are looking at the people that they wanna partner with to making sure that we’re meeting our targets. So, that’s essentially point one. But really the secret sauce or, if you will, our strength is around the greening by. And if you think about the chemical industry alone, Jim 60% of CO2 comes from just the combustion process.

And Jennifer touched on Scope 3, which is in the chemical industry, about 75% of the total emissions, 75%. I mean, that’s insane. So, the way that we help, whether it’s optimizing the steam turbines or their pumps, their facilities, pressurized equipment, it’s done through really the advancement of digitization, digital solutions, efficiency improvements is how we get there. And then really putting and ensuring, like, there’s a change management taking place. So, the way I like to say it is our greening by is essentially a customer’s greening of.

Jim: Yeah. That makes total sense as an automation supplier and all the digital technologies that we can help people in their journey through a number of different ways. Thanks for sharing that, Denka.

Bobby, with Texas being an energy hub for all of North America and even beyond globally, what does the energy landscape look like as we go forward?

Bobby: Well, in many ways, Jim, it will look much like the historic landscape and in other ways, it will look dramatically different. And here in Texas particularly, I think we are very clear that the challenge is, in fact, a dual challenge, which is to say we have to deliver reliable, affordable, and secure energy to the world today, while at the same time, dramatically driving down CO2 and other emissions. And if the challenge were just one of those two things, it would be quite a different proposition.

But in fact, the challenge is that we need to be able to walk and chew gum, which is to say we have to do both of those and we have to do them simultaneously. And so, a big part of the energy complex here in Texas will continue to be focused on the former, which is to say, just delivering reliable, affordable, and secure energy today to the world as it’s needed. And then there’s also a subset of companies who will be doing that and will be focused on truly new things. And there will also be a group of companies focused exclusively on innovation, new company formation, new forms of energy, and all the services that go around that.

And so, it’s really a very exciting time, but we have to remind ourselves that there’s no one silver bullet. Energy is truly a system or in fact, multiple systems that are highly, highly complex, and the challenges that we face are multifaceted. There are challenges of the physical world, of chemistry and physics. There are also challenges of the geopolitical world, security, and reliability. And then there are challenges of the consumer, which is to say that people who are using energy every day are simultaneously desiring, if not demanding, that it be cleaner and lower emissions, yet they also want it as cheaply and reliably as they can possibly get it.

So, you roll all that together and it means that the challenges are huge and complex, and likely to take a long time. But the good news is that we have a world that is increasingly focused on this challenge, and ultimately it’s our industrial companies like Jennifer’s companies and many, many others who will drive the change that’s needed for us to get to where we need to go, which is to say dramatically lower CO2 emissions to mitigate the worst impacts of climate change.

Jim: Well, that does…that dual challenge there certainly presents a lot of challenges. But with the amount of people focused and all that brain power, there’ll be technology innovations, there’ll be a lot of things along the way that help us drive that way just by the sheer focus on the challenge there.

Jennifer, I guess the same question for you. How do you see the Texas energy landscape from your perspective as we go forward?

Jennifer: So, I think what Bobby said was spot on. I think for Texas… maybe to take one step back, this year with the Russia-Ukraine War really highlighted the need for energy security and we saw costs rise tremendously. And so, I mean that really hit at home for all of us in industry, especially those of us that are global companies watching that.

I think for Texas you do need…you need reliable, low-cost, but sustainable energy. And so, I think when we look at what we do as an industry, it’s got to be reliable, rateable energy. So, renewable energy’s wonderful. We love investing in it. I think it is absolutely important for our future. Battery storage isn’t where it needs to be yet today. So, I think you are going to need other sources of energy. So, I think it’s gonna be, I always call it lumpy. You’re gonna have a lot of different things moving, and I think Bobby said it very well, it’s going to take time.

So, I think about hydrogen. And so, we’re actually participating in a collaborative group with Chevron and with Air Liquide to bring hydrogen as a hub. So, infrastructure. Infrastructure takes time, it takes a lot of money, but I love the opportunity now that we can collaborate in this sustainability space. We collaborate more now, and I think that’s very exciting.

So, PetChem companies, because of IP, we didn’t always maybe collaborate as much, but we are today. And I think it’s really important that we’re doing this because there’s high cost and higher risk. So, if you can get supply and demand together, working together, it adds a little bit more comfort as you go through the infrastructure build or the technology improvements or driving new technology.

So, I mean, for me, I think you’re gonna see a big change. Hydrogen could be…it could be blue, it could be green. I mean, we’ll see what that looks like, but I do think that is an alternative way to look at energy. So, renewable energy, hydrogen as a source. And one other comment too, here in the Houston area, you’ve got a lot of olefin crackers. And a lot of them are cracking ethane because ethane is a lower-cost raw material. When you crack it, you do actually make a lot of hydrogen.

So, a lot of folks are starting to recycle their hydrogen to also cut down on the natural gas they’re using. So, I think people are getting smarter, they’re becoming more energy efficient, and I do think you’re gonna see a change over time. And I agree, Bobby, it’s gonna take some time. But if you have a lot of companies that are willing to collaborate, I think it allows for a much higher success rate going forward, and faster.

Jim: Yeah. I think that collaboration is everything. I mean, from a supplier standpoint of equipment to understand the challenges and move the technology along to help address that, and then some of the examples like recycling that hydrogen, with hydrogen being so promising an energy carrier there though, yeah, it’s…we’re on the train moving that direction, and it seems to be accelerating, which is great.

Denka, since a large part of our automation business is here in Texas, how do you see it, how we play in the Texas energy landscape, and how it’s evolving?

Denka: Yeah. So, I was saying that we’ve always been industrial leaders in aerospace, in healthcare, in oil and gas. And now really this energy addition, if you will, is where we take place as the frontier runners in the renewable sector. So, in 2022, Texas added 8,000 megawatts of solar and wind as well. California, just as a benchmark, was only 3000 megawatts.

So, we look at the amount of infrastructure and capital that’s being invested in the renewables, and then to what Jennifer said around the hydrogen hubs, that mix of who we’re working with and the companies that we’re working with. I mean, you see lithium refineries coming in place, Tesla has moved and big tech has moved into Texas in a very meaningful way. And with that, what do you get? You get a lot of startups, a lot of Cleantech companies moving in this space as well.

So, I like to put it into two ways. The industry has changed, and more importantly, I almost say, like, the talent demographic has changed.

And what do I mean by that? I don’t think people understand, like, Texas is the fastest-growing state in the rest of the country right now. Houston is the most diverse city, beating out LA and even New York. So, when it comes to thinking about what makes us special, we have 8 billion people in this world that need clean energy, that need reliable sources of energy, and the talent is here. So, in some ways, Texas is positioned to be the epicenter of how we actually enable other areas of the world to come and go green.

Jim: And I think Texas is a place that’s blessed with all forms of energy from the carbon-based ones that were being creative in how we remove the carbon or capture and sequester the carbon to the wind, the sunshine, and everything else in there. So, it seems natural that blessed with all this energy, that we lead the way in helping the world with how to reduce the carbon and all of that energy.

Bobby, let me turn to you. Can you share your views on the importance of partnerships in achieving these net zero goals?

Bobby: Well, the goal certainly will not be achieved without partnerships and collaboration. That’s very, very clear. And I would say it’s clear for two reasons. One is that, as I mentioned before, there’s no silver bullet here and we’re going to have to have progress across a very, very wide range of issues. And some of that has to do with technology, some of it has to do with markets, some of it has to do with customer preferences. But there’s a very wide range of issues that will require solutions. And no one company touches all of those, and no one regulatory body touches all of those for that matter.

So, almost by definition, we have to have collaboration and partnerships. But perhaps the even more important reason, and Jennifer touched on this earlier, is risk sharing I think is going to be really, really critical here. The IEA says we need to be spending call it $4 trillion per year globally every year between now and 2050 to meet the goals of the Paris Climate Accords. We’re currently spending about $1 trillion globally. So, we’re $3 trillion a year short, and we’re whatever the number is, 28 years away. So, we’re talking about a lot of capital required here.

And there is no one company nor is there any one government that could possibly afford to pay for the majority of that. The capital is gonna have to come from everywhere. It will have to come from governments in the forms of R&D and grants, and tax incentives. And we’re doing a lot of that here now and the EU is close behind us. A lot of it is gonna have to come from the private capital markets true risk-taking where that…whether that’s at a venture capital level or a more traditional private equity level. A lot of it’s gonna have to come from the budgets of our big industrial companies who generate free cash flow and are gonna have to take some of that free cash flow and invest it in innovation and new products and new ventures.

And ultimately, and this is quite an unpopular thing to say, but I’m gonna say it, ultimately, it’s gonna have to come from us as consumers of energy. We’re gonna have to be prepared to help pay for the innovation and incremental cost that’s required to decarbonize quickly on the pace that we need to be on to make all of this happen. So, it is going to require collaboration and partnership across every corner of industry and every corner of our society, and every corner of government around the world.

This is a massive, massive undertaking because there’s a huge amount of inertia in energy systems. They are big and complex. We have to be able to leverage what we already have because completely replumbing the world’s energy systems is simply too expensive and it will take too long to have an impact on the problem, the climate change problem, in the way that we really need to. So, I’m a big believer in the importance of collaboration.

Jim: Yeah. When it extends to all of us, even as consumers, that’s everyone’s got a stake in this and everyone’s got… step up for their part of it.

Jennifer, I was fascinated reading through on your website about how your company will achieve your goal of ending plastic waste. Can you share more about the ways you’re tackling this goal?

Jennifer: Sure. So, we actually were a founding member of the Alliance To End Plastic Waste. And so, we have…we actually have a multi-pronged program. So, our goal is to get to 2 million metric tons of recycled product that we sell in the market. And it can be from chemical recycling, mechanical recycling, or a circular, like, renewable feedstock.

So, on the advanced recycling, we actually have our own technology, we call it MoReTec. The MoReTec technology takes hard-to-recycle plastic and it makes it into what we call pyrolysis oil. And that oil can then be cracked to create olefins that can then go into polymers.

We also look at things like JVs [joint ventures], we get involved with those as well, again, about the collaboration part that Bobby was talking about. So, we’ve invested in some JVs already, a state-of-the-art sorting units. One is in Germany with Source One Plastics. We are also part of a partnership in Houston to reduce the landfilling that’s going on with Exxon and Cyclyx.

So those are areas where we’re now trying to procure the recycled materials plastic bottles and whatnot to bring into our facilities to either, make pyrolysis oil out of or also expand into our current mechanically recycled programs that we have. We just signed a few more MOUs and LOIs with others so that we can also make more, we have one already QCP in Europe where we make mechanically recycled polymers.

So, we look at things like our Circulen brand that we’re trying to bring to market, working with our customers that really want it. They want to be able to say things are made out of recycled plastic. I think about the drink cups that a lot of the fast-food restaurants are now recycled plastic. So, the biggest issue there really is not the technology, it’s the collection of the plastic.

So, I think for us, again, talking about partnership, the way to make that happen is to partner with folks maybe that we wouldn’t have partnered with in the past and start trying to figure out how to solve that problem so that we can bring it into our sites and use it. So, I’m actually super excited to see us doing this and really expanding. We also on our leadership team, as we reorganized under Peter, we do have a circular and low carbon solutions business line. And I think that’s important so that we are more customer-facing to try and bring those solutions to customers and help them be more innovative as well.

Jim: Well, and that really brings that partnership aspect to life, all those different ways you described your working with others to do some of that. So, that’s really exciting from what Bobby said that you as a company are putting that into practice and really driving what you’re doing for more sustainable operations.

Denka, what role can we play in helping Lyondell and other companies in this?

Denka: Yeah. Jim, I sometimes think about, adding to what Bob and Jennifer said, we are in some ways the conduit to making sure that the alliance or the partnerships make sense. Like, we’re the vehicle. We ourselves don’t do the production. But I have never signed more three-way NDAs, I’ll tell you this much, between companies that are very similar to us. So, I think that there’s been a natural collaboration and a congregation in trying to do the right thing, which I have not seen in the last 10-plus years.

And, I think I’m very passionate actually around the greening with, Emerson’s greening with, in our ethos. And it means how do we work with OEMs, with maybe even competitors, dare I say it, but people who are in the same space of how we bring solutions to the Lyondells or to the other customers that we have.

And I go back to this, look one fundamental saying that I think it’s a Zambian proverb. If you run alone, you run fast. But if you run with others, you run far. And the whole purpose of what we’re doing is we want to run far, past a net zero goal, past what Wall Street is expecting. I think we owe it to our children and our children’s children, who are by the way, ready to pay for it.

I think Bobby touched on it is up to us as individuals to be able to say we will be able to maximize and make sure we are able to deliver those promises, but our next generation are willing to actually spend in that more efficient manner. So, I think I’ll conclude with this. I don’t think that the ecosystem or the partnerships are linear, which we’ve often thought about, but they’re in some ways almost like a bubble of moving the same way in the same direction in a very calculated manner.

And it’s almost the analogy, the fingers have a job, your body parts all have a job. But when you come together and you’re able to actually make the impact that is needed, it’s so much more meaningful. So, I think we have to think of sometimes putting the ego aside and understanding how can we come into alliances and partnerships in a very meaningful and calculated way.

Bobby: Jim, one thing I might add, if I might, to Denka’s comments is that an area of importance in the energy transition that probably doesn’t get enough airtime, if you will, is just that of efficiency gains and conservation. And, we can think a lot about alternative forms of energy. That’s one way of kind of getting out greenhouse gas emissions. But we can also think about more efficient operations that in fact conserve energy so that we don’t have to use as much of it to create the same amount of energy output in industrial activity.

And when I think of the business automation world and of Emerson in particular, your company is right at the heart of that. And I think that alone is sort of poised to make really, really big contributions to this whole effort. So, we need to remember and concentrate on the role that industry and industrial automation can and must play in the energy transition. And we’ll be counting on Emerson and your like-minded companies around the world to help us do that.

Jim: Yeah. One thing that’s really helping in this area is technology advanced and wireless communication has grown. It’s really the ability not just to instrument a plant to control it, but to really measure how are we doing energy-wise and others. So, more companies can take advantage of that. And creative engineers in our industry are figuring what are more things we can put devices and analytics and other things to help drive greater energy efficiency. So, I appreciate you bringing that up.

That’s something that we wanna make sure we’re continuing to advance the technology to make it easier and easier for people to be able to do that and drive their energy usage lower. I guess let’s wind down. This has been a great discussion, and I know that our listeners have gotten some, or will get some great things out of it.

I guess kind of a looking forward, Bobby, what progress do you see being made by the end of this decade?

Bobby: I think there’ll be tremendous progress across a whole range of areas, some of which we’re already sort of firmly on the path. So, for example, in the world of renewable power generation, I think we will continue to have very large expansions of wind and solar, and hydro, and geothermal, and other forms of renewable power generation. So, we’ve got great momentum there and we’re on our way.

I think the evolution of hydrogen is a really important component of this. The next three or four years is critical for the hydrogen world for us to get to economics that make both blue and green hydrogen possible and feasible and desirable. And then I think there’s a whole nother bucket of things that we will be doing at the end of this decade that we can’t even imagine today.

And much of that will come, I think, out of our DOE labs and our research universities. And those two things are real competitive advantages that America has versus the rest of the world and we need to put them to use and put them to use in a very big way between now and the end of the decade. So, I kind of go back to my original point, Jim, which is that there’s no silver bullet. This is going to take a little bit of progress across a million different things. In the aggregate, we can make a big difference. We can dramatically drive down CO2 emissions and live in a much cleaner, more sustainable world.

Jim: Yeah. I think that’s an excellent summation. And, just in energy storage alone, there may be some breakthroughs that we can’t even imagine now in the seven years we have left in this particular decade.

And Jennifer, I know that you said you’ve lifted, what, from 30% to 42%, what you’re gonna do by the end of the decade. But beyond what you said earlier, what do you see advancements as we close out this decade?

Jennifer: So, I mean, I think for us to get to 42%, and I think a lot of companies that look like us are very similar trying to do the same thing, it’s not just about energy efficiency. You actually have to do something holistically different. So, carbon capture carbon capture is one, hydrogen is another. So, I do see, I agree with Bobby.

I think, we have the Inflation Reduction Act, we have ways now that helps, I think, encourage this and support moving forward so that you do have, the right cost levels to make it work, hydrogen in particular. So, I actually do think by the end of the decade, you could see a lot of things starting to come online. And so, the other thing I think too is that I think as this starts to grow, it’s the beginning is always a little bit slow, but once you start to get to momentum, it really starts to take off.

So, for example, trying to get wells permitted, these types of things. Folks will start to see it and hopefully help us streamline it and make sure that we can do these things a little bit better, a little bit faster. So, I think by the time we get to the end of the decade, I think you will see a lot more renewable power. I agree with Bobby on that. I think hydrogen’s another one.

I’m excited about what technology’s going to be there that isn’t there today. Those are the things that are super exciting. I think energy storage would be great. So, that’s one where I really do hope we see even more significant advancements. But even for us in our labs, we’re looking at making products differently in the future than we make ’em today. And so, these things that we partner with universities as well. And so, I think the “not knowing yet what’s gonna be out there” is kind of super exciting to me.

Jim: Well, that’s also excellent summation. There are so many different things going on, and each of us and where we’re at have a big role to play with that. Well, I want to thank you all so much for sharing your time and your expertise with our listeners. And I know we look forward to doing our part in helping meet these lofty goals that we have before us and improve the quality of life we all enjoy again. So, thank you so much.

Bobby: Thanks.

Denka: Thank you. Thanks, Jim.

Jennifer: You’re welcome.

Denka: Thanks, Bobby. Thanks, Jennifer.

Bobby: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

-End of Transcript-

Here is part 2 of my wide-ranging discussion with Emerson’s Martin Van Der Merwe about the trends, challenges, and solutions in growing hydrogen’s role in the Asia-Pacific region’s energy mix. Here is part 1 in case you missed it.

In this episode, Martin discusses some key technologies and solutions that can be applied across the hydrogen value chain, from the production of hydrogen through the transfer to the end consumer. He shares examples of where companies have deployed these technologies and solutions to drive performance improvements.

Visit the Sustainability & Decarbonization section on Emerson.com and connect with Emerson’s Asia-Pacific Sustainability & Decarbonization experts in your country.

Jim: In what areas does Emerson help the industry overcome these challenges and how does Emerson’s technology and solutions fit into the hydrogen value chain?

Martin: It is worth mentioning that hydrogen production and storage is not new to us, as mentioned hydrogen is currently primarily consumed in refining (41%) and chemical (53%) processes. Both of these industries are significant users of Emerson’s technology, solutions and expertise globally today. In fact we support hydrogen production through electrolysis at over 100 sites today with more that 180k measurement data points – yes the volume of hydrogen generated today via electrolysis in insignificant but it is just matter of scale. And as discussed scale brings cost-reduction benefits but also some challenges.

We help to address these challenges with Emerson’s Greening BY and Greening WITH philosophy. With Greening BY Emerson, we look to support and enable our customers’ hydrogen ambitions with Emerson solutions, technologies and expertise, but we have also been involved in many of the early low-carbon hydrogen pilot projects across Asia as mentioned before like ATCO. On another recent project, here in Melbourne, we partnered with Toyota on their Hydrogen demonstration plant which is a project that showcases the entire green hydrogen value chain from renewable solar power, battery energy storage, water treatment, production, hydrogen storage to the hydrogen refueling station.

These pilots are critical to support the tremendous amount of research and development being done to improve the efficiency and cost across this hydrogen value-chain, this is where we focus on the Greening WITH Emerson part, where we engage with external stakeholders to provide industry leadership, develop innovative solutions with universities and research centers as well as work to support future policies with regulators.

In particular for Asia, we have partnered with bodies such as the Australian Hydrogen Council, Korea Hydrogen Industry Association, Clean Fuel and Ammonia Association in Japan and several others the region.

We currently support research in fields that include analytics, process modeling and digital twin‘s across the hydrogen value-chain, solutions for hydrogen safety, transportation and storage of compressed and LH2, improvements to electrolyzer efficiencies and technologies as well as solutions for end-use application in transportation and use in energy-intensive, hard-to-abate processes.

Jim: Great! I love the example of the Toyota pilot because it sounds like a great pilot that showcases a large part of the value chain. Can you elaborate on what Emerson technologies were specifically used?

Martin: It is a very good example Jim, and it was great to have had them participate at our Asian Emerson Exchange late last year as well. As mentioned, the project covered the entire value chain from renewable solar and battery power system, fuel cell power generation, hydrogen production from an electrolyzer, hydrogen storage and distribution and hydrogen refueling station. As with many hydrogen projects, it consisted of several packages. Toyota’s objective was to easily integrate all these packages with a balance of plant instrumentation and control and safety system that was fit-for-purpose i.e not having to overinvest but also have the flexibility to expand it as needed. Emerson was selected as the automation partner on the project since we could achieve these objectives using our DeltaV integrated control and safety system, which allowed for easy integration of these packages across multiple communication protocols, including Profinet, Modbus and Ethernet IP all on the single Package (PK) controller. The solar array and battery energy storage system required a web-hosted API to interface with the control system to enable optimized energy balancing, this was achieved using our secure state-of-the-art edge device. We also consulted on, and delivered a suite of hydrogen specific instrumentation including pressure, temperature, metering and flame & gas detection. The flame and gas detectors were particularly important as hydrogen flames are nearly invisible in daylight and has low heat radiation. I would encourage you listeners to go to the on-demand webinar if you could share that link in your blog later.

While Toyota covers most of the value-chain, there we also several other projects in the region that covered hydrogen blending in India and Australia with ATCO as mentioned before and large-scale fuel-cell power generation and hydrogen refueling stations in Korea, Japan and China. So we certainly are kept very busy with projects that cover the whole value chain.

Jim: So these are all great examples of Emerson’s breadth in its portfolio of hydrogen applications but were there any lessons or differences that would be applicable to larger scale projects?

Martin: Great question Jim. And yes it is one thing building a pilot or demonstration plant but scaling up to a larger scale presents both opportunities and challenges. We are currently supporting Feasibility and FEED activities in several large-scale projects in the region.

In terms of opportunities, the obvious ones are cost savings in duplication of process units, like electrolyzer stack design as well as engineering and maintenance efficiencies.

Some of the lessons from the gas industry that are particularly well suited to hydrogen would be to implement a remote or integrated operation center. Having the operations centralized allows not only for cost savings but enables the effective use of data driven decision making using cross functional teams that are aided by advanced analytics and modeling. For example identifying the optimal economic dispatch of your distributed energy resources in wind farms and solar arrays or you may want to optimize your electrolyzer loads to minimize membrane or diaphragm replacement. In the case of a large-scale hydrogen refueler network you would again want to optimize the hydrogen distribution across the network based on demand forecast and plan maintenance routs based on predictive analytics. Emerson has the technology today to build operational digital twins for process and economic optimization that can support the design and implementation of a project, but also provide ongoing support once the facilities are in operation.

Many large-scale projects are phased in their rollout to align to demand. So again there is an opportunity to optimize design scope that provides flexibility to integrate and install new units, while minimizing the impact and process balance of existing equipment. We see many hydrogen projects starting with large-scale renewables that initially would dispatch to the grid, while the hydrogen production plant is then built later after offtake or supply contracts are agreed.

This phased approach can present some challenges as technology progresses, for example right now alkaline electrolysis is cheaper than proton exchange membrane or PEM but in the next decade they will reach cost parity at which point you may want to switch to the more efficient PEM after having built your plant on alkaline technology, so you should consider how you can manage their different operating parameters.

A phased large-scale project may also need to consider changes in market requirements. You may initially only produce hydrogen to supply a local hub or pipeline network but in later phases develop the capacity to export. In that case do you plan to export the hydrogen as ammonia or LH2 or both?

Ultimately any feasibility study for a large-scale project now would need to evaluate or simulate many scenarios both economically and process related to enable the design to be as flexible as possible without adding excessive cost. In my mind having a digital twin of the assets to support and the evaluation and optimize different designs and scenarios, would be a great way to build confidence in the feasibility and flexibility of a project today.

Jim: You mentioned the challenges of evolving technologies, how do you see Emerson adapting and innovating to address these challenges.

Martin: Luckily Jim, innovation is at the heart of Emerson’s purpose, and we continue to invest in R&D and partner WITH research bodies to ensure we can support our customers as process and operations technology advance in hydrogen.

We have a strong track record with our investment to support the development of severe service valves for cryogenic LH2 applications as well as our Micro Motion Coriolis flow meter designed for high-pressure, high flow hydrogen dispensing improving refueling times for heavy-duty freight applications. I believe that not only will it be important for customers in the hydrogen industry to leverage new technology and solutions but also to ensure that the equipment they select are robust, reliable and fit-for-purpose, the industry will be very competitive, and reputation will play key role for future success.

While talking about innovation and evolution of technology we should also consider the impact regulations and standards will have in this regard. This is why Emerson has representatives that participate in standards development to ensure we are aware and prepared for regulation changes as they progress across the region.

Jim: Well, it’s been a great discussion and I hope our listeners enjoyed it as well! Martin, before we wrap things up, and where can our listeners go to learn more and how can they connect with us on any specific questions they might have?

Martin: Well, a great place to start is our sustainability & decarbonization webpage. Through that, you can find out more about our sustainability initiatives, our solutions and reach out to us. So that’s a great start. Also, as part of this Asia Pacific podcast series, Jim I believe we will be sharing the contact details of the Emerson Sustainability & Decarbonization representative for your respective countries here in Asia Pacific, please feel free to contact them if you have any queries or need assistance.

Jim: Perfect! I’ll add links in the transcript to these sites and other things you discussed today. Thank you, Martin for joining us today and sharing some of your insights on the future of Hydrogen across the Asia-Pacific region.

Martin: Thanks a lot Jim, it’s been great

Jim: For all our listeners, this was the second in a series of our Asia Pacific Sustainability & Decarbonization podcasts. Do follow our page for details for the next podcast where we will cover specific segments such as Renewable Energy, Carbon Capture, and more in greater detail with our subject matter experts from Asia Pacific.

Across all industries, there is an increased urgency and demand to reduce emissions. Every sustainability strategy—from capturing CO2 and using more clean energy sources and green fuels to improving energy efficiencies—directly or indirectly links to managing emissions. In earlier podcasts we focused on challenges and opportunities operators face with hydrogen production and transportation. Today, we look at emission management technologies for industrial applications.

Emerson’s Aurélien Tissot joins podcast host Jim Cahill in this Emerson Automation Experts podcast to discuss the topic of emissions and the technology opportunities for manufacturers and producers.

The need to optimize operations to reduce energy usage and waste, and meet ever-changing emissions and environmental regulations is critical. To learn more about emissions and the technology opportunities for manufacturers and producers – download our emissions e-book – Emissions Management Provides a Path to Achieving Environmental Sustainability Goals.

Visit the Energy & Emissions section on Emerson.com for more on strategies and technologies for lower emissions and improved resource efficiency.

Jim: Hi everyone. This is Jim Cahill with another “Emerson Automation Experts” podcast. Today I’m joined by Aurelién Tissot to discuss the global effects to reduce emissions and some of the technologies that can help drive more sustainable performance. Welcome, Aurelién.

Aurelién: Hi, Jim.

Jim: It’s great to have you with us today. Let’s begin by asking that you share with our listeners your background and path to your current role here at Emerson.

Aurelién: All right. Well, thank you very much, Jim. I’m very happy to be here today. I wanted to say that and discuss about such an important topic. So my name is Aurelién, I am based in Lyon, France, and I am looking after Europe marketing and digital business for one of Emerson Automation Solutions for major business groups being Final Control. I have a master’s degree in mechanical systems from the University of Troy and an Executive MBA from La Sorbonne in Paris. I started to work for Emerson back in 2007, so some time ago, as a Europe engineering manager in France.

Sometime after that, I spent three years in McKinney, Texas as a new product development project manager. Back to Europe after this taking care of strategic planning, product marketing, communication, business development, working for Pressure Management back then, which basically led to my current role since Pressure Management is about the Final Control.

Now very important on top of these attributions, I am also co-engagement leader for two main sustainability programs globally, one being energy and emission for the refining industry, and another one being carbon emissions capture, utilization, and storage. So basically, here, we talk about two programs that put the emissions topic at the very center of my current endeavors.

Jim: Well, that’s great that you have that focus on energy and emissions, which we’ll get into. And also it was great to hear that you spent some time in our great state of Texas. So we love having people come to the state and getting the feeling for what it’s like around here. So that’s tremendous. Can you describe the importance of the emissions topic and ways that it affects manufacturers and producers?

Aurelién: Yeah, and I think it is absolutely key. Let’s say that the end goal for all global sustainability or decarbonization discussions that we hear about, and there is a buzz right now, is to reach the so-called carbon neutrality. So what does it mean? It means that greenhouse gas emissions that we are producing as a civilization must be reduced or contained so that we do not emit more than the planet absorption capacity.

So we talk about Net Zero emission, or carbon neutrality. In other words, every sustainability strategy, or initiatives such as capturing CO2, limiting methane emissions, leakages, or simply venting, working on the energy efficiency, insulation, cleaner energy source, green fuels, smart management, name it, all of that either directly or indirectly link to the purpose of managing or reducing emissions.

Jim: Well, that makes sense. So for the manufacturers and producers that emit carbon emissions, what’s their mindset right now?

Aurelién: So obviously, everybody’s looking at them. And that is a very important question, one that we as Emerson absolutely need to answer so that we know the type of support that we can provide. Now, depending on the sector, or the world area, the economic development, or simply the belief of the person we’re talking to, I would say that we managed to identify three main categories.

The first category is kind of resisting to this reality, and then the need to take action. Fortunately, it’s less than less. But we still have that. And there can be different reasons to that fact, right? Some reasons can be very noble, like the lack of financing or the danger that it puts on an operation that is growing, right? And we don’t want to disturb that.

Other reason, are not so noble, but, yeah, that’s a category that exists. The second category is reacting. So these people, and I believe this is the greater category by far right now, these people are aware of the reality, they are willing to take the appropriate actions, mainly because it is more and more part of the regulations. But they still see that as a constraint, meaning, yes, they’re going to act, but they want to do that at the lowest possible cost, and maybe not do more than what’s requested.

Finally, the last category is optimizing. Not only are they aware that they see sustainability as an opportunity to outperform the competition. It is indeed well proven that such companies, companies that have a strong sustainability strategy will have a much more attractive culture, they will manage to stimulate innovation and end up having greater financial but also extra financial performance, and that attracts investors. So at Emerson, we want to help climbing the different stages of this ladder with a mix of technology, expertise, services, and very important, education.

Jim: Well, that’s very interesting about it. And the people looking to optimize, usually, in those industries that are the emitters, that’s one of their greatest cost sources. So whatever they can do to be more efficient in that area seems like it makes good business sense for them to be able to do that. So what are some types of emissions of most concern and the industries most affected?

Aurelién: Yeah, we can really segment the type of emissions in so many different ways, their shape, liquid, particulate gas emissions, their impact, some of the emissions will mainly impact the soil, the water. I mean, it’s not only about air emissions, even though we talk a lot about that. And if we focus on the air emission, I mean, it could be top-five type of air pollutant, our carbon monoxide, lead, ozone, or nitrogen and sulfur dioxide. So as you see, if we go that way, it gets very complex very quickly, and we really need to look at it based on what’s relevant for the emitting sector we focus on. In our case, the biggest contributor by far being energy producers and suppliers, as well as industrial players.

So my personal take on that is a segmentation based on the way the emissions are actually created. The first category is where you have combustion, you’re basically burning stuff, you’re burning fuel to create heat for a variety of purposes, or you’re flaring the surplus, right?

And that’s usually linked to greenhouse gas emissions. The second category that I see is venting that is intended. That’s actually a very prominent source of methane emissions, which is also one of the greenhouse gas emission, and it’s quite a hot topic right now at the COP 26. It’s actually 80 times the warming power of carbon dioxide, quite a big deal.

And the last one is fugitive emissions. So that’s a third category. It’s when containment of toxic gases and liquids is lost due to leaky valves and tanks, corroded piping, or faulty mechanical connections. And that’s more industrial type of emission. So long story short, they are emission that you’re totally aware of, and also that you get to measure and report to your authorities. And there is this last sneakier type of emissions, fugitive…on one end, it’s harder to locate on the other end, it’s easier to tackle.

Jim: Well, given those various sources and challenges in these emissions, what solutions do we offer that prevent fugitive emission leaks, greenhouse gas emissions, etc.?

Aurelién: So we see that a lot, you know, companies investing in new, cleaner energy alternatives, we hear a lot about hydrogen, for instance, which is very, very important. But while they do so, they must also look at ways to cut emissions in the shorter term, and they have to focus on where they have a lot of leverage as well, which is basically their own operation. Specifically, they will be looking at emissions management technologies that are available today.

So, back to the different type of emission, we can talk about preventing leaks in the first place. We can talk about running processes with more efficient combustion. And when you don’t have the choice, at the end of the day, even though you optimize and keep optimizing, you’re still going to need to burn fuel, and so create emission. And in that case, you have the visibility to capture these remaining emissions and store them underground.

Jim: What are some ways to manage releases due to high-pressure conditions?

Aurelién: So Emerson’s advanced pressure relief and blowdown valves are basically engineered to protect against these cases are pressure buildup, and if not managed properly, this will result in discharges—gas and liquids. Also today, new valves technology automatically seal leak points at valves. Emerson’s enhanced design, including highly efficient stem seal system, higher flow capacity, and packing for huge temperature variation, either meet or exceed the most stringent fugitive emissions requirements. So there is that.

Now, though, it is very important to have such valve devices with superior sealing technology, it’s not like an existing plant or an industrial player will upgrade the thousands of valves using in one shot. Okay, so he needs to be clever about that and this is where advanced monitoring for pressure relief, for valve packing or tanks, I really help identifying fugitive emissions event and take action where this is happening.

Finally, people can also go from reactive to something more proactive in terms of the approach. And we really strongly suggest our customers to engage in walk-downs or audit their valves or include that concern as part of their STO [shutdown/turnaround/outage] because it’s very important for them to spend the budget where the impact will be the greatest.

Jim: You had made that point earlier about combustion. So processes that include combustion are another big source of emissions, what technologies can help here?

Aurelién: So this is really where automation technologies can help and that are actually available today. To optimize all these combustion processes from increasing boiler efficiency or measuring oxygen and carbon dioxide for better fuel consumption, optimizing flue gas treatment, all of that helps to reduce emissions at a conversion asset. This is where our measurement solutions and process devices, like valves, that we mentioned earlier are a very good fit. And we can also help our customers to report on their emissions to the authorities in the proper way and support for audits and continuous improvement.

Now, if we go from this combustion processes and expand to all processes or assets emitting CO2, one way or another. I was personally very impressed by our AMS Optics offering, with the possibility to use the carbon intensity as a control operating parameter to deliver a cleaner product. This type of innovation is really where advanced digitalization or data analysis, or industrial software will really make a huge difference.

It’s not only to improve existing plants, as we saw in terms of, you know, the carbon footprint, but also as we build future operation. And in fact, we start seeing more and more this carbon intensity topic within the scope of new industrial infrastructure project. So it really goes in the right direction for existing plant and new projects.

Jim: Yes, and we had some earlier podcasts about the AMS Optics operational analytics. So that’s really interesting to set carbon intensity as a key performance metric to be able to optimize around. So how can automation technologies help with carbon capture and storage processes?

Aurelién: As I mentioned earlier, you know, sometimes you don’t have a choice. At the end of the day, you’re going to have to burn fuel. And this is where that carbon capture comes into place. We talk also about utilization when you capture the carbon you can use it and the storage, which is at the end of the value chain.

So in there, same thing, Emerson’s advanced automation technology, I believe are designed specifically to monitor and control the capture process, you know, to optimize them, not only the capturing process, the liquefaction, after you capture it, you can liquefy the carbon, compress it, move it through pipeline transfer, loading… unloading, you’re going to have their first storage along the chain, and at the very end underground containment.

Our technology really helped to ensure Operational Certainty across that entire chain by delivering advanced control, or increased process visibility and actionable information so that you can take the right decision. Now, why is that important? Well, first, because carbon capture is a key element to reach carbon neutrality. Without massive investment in carbon capture, we won’t do it, we won’t succeed. On the other end, it is still very CAPEX and OPEX-intensive. So everything we can do to optimize the process, and so it’s commercial balance, ease with R&D, and industrial scale-up are very important critical success factors.

Now, at the very end of the chain, I mentioned underground storage. That’s also a very nice one, because clearly, when we store the CO2 that we have captured and moved underground, it’s supposed to last forever. So it’s a little bit like the nuclear industry, maybe not the same scale, but it’s similar in terms of the very long-term accountability and reliability. And again, here, you can see the importance of selecting and having the proper automation technologies.

Jim: Yeah, sounds like automation can play a large role in that complete chain until it’s going down to where it’s ultimately stored in there. Can you describe how one can produce fewer emissions through lower carbon intensity sources?

Aurelién: Yes, absolutely. So let’s say we nicely covered how industrial players can optimize the way they operate, and the management of their own emissions. Now, they also have the possibility to act on their input selection, meaning the energy they use and the material they buy. They can decide to switch to less carbon-intensive fuels, such as hydrogen, as well as employing renewable energy or electricity coming from wind, solar, hydroelectric, or geothermal sources.

They can use greener fuel sources as well. So all of their input will bear when they buy it as specific carbon intensity. Again, carbon intensity. Thus, selecting cleaner origin has a direct impact on the product that they will deliver. And this is actually part of what we call the Scope 2 of the Greenhouse Gas Protocol. So generally speaking, even though it is key to act on your own operation, it is also very important to consider the entire supply chain carbon intensity as part of one’s responsibility to act on its overall carbon footprint.

Jim: Well, it sounds like optimization is one step, then it’s looking at alternatives to be able to find lower carbon-intense sources as you go continue down your journey to lower emissions. Let’s get a little more specific. Can you share an example where Emerson is helping a customer with their emission reductions initiatives?

Aurelién: Yeah, we do have plenty of these examples. One that come to my mind happened in Utah where Emerson is collaborating with Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems in America to optimize performance and reliability, but also enable predictive and AI-driven maintenance strategies, automate operational decisions making, all of that at the Intermountain Power Plant.

So basically, what happens is, Mitsubishi turbines will replace a coal-fired power plant and use instead of coal, 30% green hydrogen and 70% natural gas to generate electricity, eventually shifting to 100% green hydrogen, which is not a small thing for turbines, right, due to the fact that hydrogen is also very sneaky. But the importance of that is that this transition will allow gas turbines to produce electricity with neutral carbon emissions. I like this example because to me, it’s a nice one, including not only the process optimization but also the cleaner energy source with the use of hydrogen.

Jim: Well, that is a great example of doing that shift from coal-based energy to those sources and kind of mapping it out over time to lower and lower carbon sources. So I always love to put our experts on the spot and throw an open-ended question at you. What haven’t I asked you that would be beneficial for our listeners to know?

Aurelién: Well, I think that all our discussion was, I believe, a very comprehensive opportunity to explore the different type of emissions, the associated challenges, and thing that can be done today, like right now, I guess, I want to leave the audience with that thought. We may not have all the technology and industrial practices available today to reach carbon neutrality by tackling emission, and there’s a reason why we’re talking about milestone in 2030, and another in 2050. But there is so much we can do to begin and accelerate the journey. And the second point is, let’s not consider that as a cost. This is an investment that always comes with great return. Okay.

Jim: Yeah, that’s like getting back to our point earlier about energy being a very high part of many people’s costs in their manufacturing and production processes. So there can be real return on that, as well as the other parts that we talked about through that whole chain of things that we can do. Where can our listeners go to learn more about some of the things we’ve talked about today?

Aurelién: So the best place to start with is our website, product pages. I mean, we talked about specific products during the discussion around the valves, around automation technologies, and we can link to that. Industry pages, approaches are different depending on the industry. What we’re going to do at a refinery is different than what we can do at a power generation plant, not the same approaches, not the same solutions. So every industry page that we have on our website, we’ll talk about activities to reduce emissions. Obviously, more and more is getting built as the focus on emissions grows since this is a very important matter, and we need to expand.

Jim: Well, and for the listeners that come across the podcast via the blog, we’ll have hyperlinks throughout the things we talked about to specific areas on Emerson.com. And for those that may have come through a popular podcast player and found our podcast here, I’d say Google Emerson plus the part you’re looking for. So whether it’s pressure management, or some of the no emissions valves, it’s a great place to Google for it. Okay, and finally, to close us out here, Aurelién, if anyone has a specific question for you, how can they reach you?

Aurelién: Well, first, don’t hesitate to reach me, right? I’m promoting that a lot. I’m enthusiastic about this. I do believe that it is a very important topic, and we all need to get in that direction. So please do reach out. The best is you LinkedIn me, otherwise, email me at [email protected]. And I’ll be extremely glad to help and answer your questions.

Jim: Well, that’s great. Well, Aurelién, I want to thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your thoughts on emissions and way to drive to lower emissions. So, thank you so much.

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