This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus debrief a joy-sparking night with Stacey Abrams before wading into America's latest authoritarian cosplay. They're then joined by Kashana Cauley—TV writer, comedian, and author of The Payback, a razor-sharp novel about debt, policing, and survival told with humor as cutting as it is honest. She talks about why gallows humor is both a shield and a call to collective resistance. Together, they dig into scrappy resistance led by ordinary people, why "voter apathy" is really despair, and how fiction can punch holes in bad policy.

Plus: an "Eight Ounces of Joy" palate cleanser—Reading Rainbow is back (yes, with Mychal the Librarian)—reminding us the future still has libraries, laughter, and reasons not to yeet our phones into the Sound.

Mentioned in the episode:

The Payback | The Survivalists | Debt Collective | Stacey Abrams at Town Hall Seattle | Pete Hegseth doing pull ups | HUD website announcement | NSPM-7 | Reading Rainbow is back! With Mychal Threets | Assata Shakur | Kashana at the University of Illinois Chicago Oct. 29th

Follow Kashana Cauley: @kashana.blacksky.app

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Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

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