In 2020, CHOP became one of the most debated protest movements in modern American history. Six years later, as calls for more policing and tougher public safety policies grow louder, artist, educator, and community organizer Julie-C joins the podcast to reflect on what that moment actually was and what lessons have been lost. Julie explores the myths that still surround CHOP, the rise of movement amnesia, the importance of relationships over rhetoric, and why investing in young people, artists, and community remains the strongest path toward real safety. It's a thoughtful conversation about organizing, conflict, creativity, and what it takes to keep building toward liberation when history feels like it's moving in reverse.

Mentioned in the episode:

On the Block | Black Coffee Co-Op | Read about Hidmo in Charles Mudede's piece honoring Rahwa Habte | Embedded S27: We Keep Us Safe | Erotics of Liberation | Gregg Gonsalves in the Nation |

Support Julie-C's work:

On the Block

Related Episodes:

Loretta J Ross | Emily M. Bender

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Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

The world feels like it's on fire. So what do we do besides doomscroll?

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with author and activist Paul Loeb to talk about his updated classic, The Impossible Will Take a Little While. In the wake of the Seattle Center shooting, and in the middle of authoritarian creep, climate chaos, and collective exhaustion, Loeb makes the case that hope isn't wishful thinking. It's a practice. A discipline. A choice to act anyway. From South Africa to South Korea, from political prisoners to everyday organizers, this conversation is a reminder that history has always been changed by ordinary people who refused to accept that the future was already written. If you're looking for a reason to keep fighting without losing your joy, this episode is for you.

Mentioned in the episode:

Marcus's Column | Renee Hopkins episode | Alliance for Gun Responsibility | The Impossible Will Take a Little While, by Paul Loeb | Archbishop Desmond Tutu | Wendell Berry: The Peace of Wild Things | Minnesota Proved MAGA Wrong | How the Word is Passed, by Clint Smith | MLK: Letter from a Birmingham Jail | theimpossible.org | Schmitz Park | Missouri ends felon disenfranchisement |

Follow Paul Loeb:

https://paulloeb.substack.com/ | theimpossible.org

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

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Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if the same government that can find billions for a war in a matter of months insists there's never enough money to feed a hungry kid or keep a school library stocked?

Marcus and Nora sit down with Jesse Hagopian — Seattle educator, Rethinking Schools editor, and author of Teach Truth: The Struggle for Antiracist Education — to follow the money from the Pentagon to the classroom. Jesse traces the fight against book bans and "anti-CRT" laws sweeping the country, and grounds it in his own history: teaching in an underfunded DC classroom, then at his alma mater, Garfield High, where keeping snacks in a desk drawer became part of the job. He connects Seattle's fight for universal school meals to the legacy of the Black Panther Party's Free Breakfast for Children Program, and James Baldwin's claim that "the children are all ours." On the heels of an all-too-tough fight for school meals in one of the wealthiest cities in the world, Hagopian shows us that "there's no money" has always been a ruse, not a fact.

In the middle of recording this episode, Seattle's fight for universal school meals actually won. Jesse walks through how that happened: years of students, parents, and teachers showing up, organizing, and refusing to accept austerity as the final word. It's a blueprint for hope in tough times.

Mentioned in the episode:

Guest Rant: Seattle Can't Afford Not to Feed Every Child | Teach Truth: The Struggle for Antiracist Education | July 21 City Council Meeting |

More from Jesse Hagopian:

https://iamaneducator.com/

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

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Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if we've been asking the wrong question all along? Instead of waiting for institutions that are failing us to finally come to the rescue, what if our real survival has always depended on each other? This week, Dean Spade returns to the podcast to join Nora and Marcus for a timely conversation about the newly updated edition of Mutual Aid. Together they unpack why mutual aid isn't charity but a practice of solidarity, resistance, and collective power with a long and radical history. From authoritarianism and democratic backsliding to climate disruption and collapsing public institutions, Spade argues that the way through this moment isn't individual resilience or hoping for our institutions to save us, but communities learning to organize, care for one another, and build the relationships that make a different future possible. If you've been wondering what hope looks like in hard times, this conversation offers something more powerful: a roadmap for action.

Mentioned in the episode:

ICE Murders | Detention Center Deaths | Mutual Aid | Love in a F*cked Up World [book] and [podcast] | Five Questions for Cultivating Solidarity | In Defense of Looting | Tiny Gardens Everywhere | Death Panel Podcast | Love in a Fucked up World: Resentment | An Unquiet Mind | 2025 Andrew Carnegie Fellow: Nora Kenworthy

Follow and Support Dean's work:

Dean Spade - Patreon

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Iranian American democracy advocate Nilu Jenks for a deeply personal conversation about war, diaspora grief, authoritarianism, and the deadly lie of "liberation" through violence. Drawing from her family's lived experience in Iran and her work for more representative democracy here in the U.S., Jenks brings clarity, grief, and fierce moral vision to a moment shaped by propaganda, profound uncertainty, and the human cost of minority rule. It's a moving, unflinching conversation about pain, memory, resistance, and what solidarity, accountability, and freedom demand, both abroad and at home. The interview in this episode first aired in March 2026.

Mentioned in the episode:

The Skepchic Rebecca Watson on Graham Platner | FIEL Houston | Nilu Jenks | Ten steps towards fascism | Rumi | Seattle's 1st homicide-free month since 1970 | Bloomberg: The Fun Shortage is Real |

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What does it mean to celebrate America at 250 if we've never been honest about the story we've been telling ourselves?

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Eddie Glaude Jr. for a conversation that's equal parts history lesson, therapy session, and reality check. Drawing from his new book, America, U.S.A.: How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries, Glaude argues that America's biggest problem isn't that we don't know our history. It's that we're deeply invested in the fairy tale version of it.

Together they explore why Glaude won't say he loves America, why he refuses to give up on it, what Frederick Douglass still demands of us 250 years after the nation's founding, and why growing up as a country means letting go of comforting myths. Along the way, they wrestle with grief, patriotism, memory, James Baldwin, Juneteenth, raising children in uncertain times, and the difference between loving a nation and loving its people.

One of the most vulnerable conversations we've had on In the Meanwhile, it's less an interview than an invitation to confront the stories we've inherited and decide whether we're finally ready to write a more honest one.

Mentioned in the episode:

SCOTUS: Birthright Citizenship * Campaign Finance * Trans Athletes in Schools | The Atlantic: Trump's 250th is a FIasco | Melania the cow | Civic Bravery at Georgia Pride | Civic Bravery episode | Fruity Farm Tennessee | White House considering issuing 250 pardons | DHS tracked down Pagelynn Gonlea | Prairieland Sentencing | America, U.S.A.: How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries | Begin Again: James Baldwin's America and Its Urgent Lessons for Our Own | Randall Robinson Quitting America | Hannah Arendt | James Baldwin | Joel Thompson | East Coker by T.S. Eliot | Buffet pausing giving to Gates |

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week Nora and Marcus speak with Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal about what Democrats keep getting wrong, why "moderation" so often means surrendering before the fight starts, and whether the left might finally be done asking permission to act like it has a spine. We talk Medicare for All, immigration, trans rights, the Epstein files, and the political class's ongoing refusal to understand that people would, in fact, like to afford housing and remain in possession of their civil rights. Jayapal makes the case for a Democratic Party that actually delivers, a politics rooted in moral clarity rather than consultant leftovers, and a version of hope that feels less Hallmark card, more organized resistance.

Mentioned in the episode:

Leftward wave in Democratic primaries! | 21st Century Road to Housing vs. Save America Acts | NYT Siena poll about Dems & socialism | Seattle Pride | Seattle broke two public transit records last week | Seattle's waterfront park

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In the Meanwhile, while billionaires flirt with trillionaire status, ICE detention centers face hunger strikes, and America's political class continues its speedrun through late-stage empire, we sit down with someone doing something radically unfashionable: caring about people. Father Ray Riding is a 76-year-old Catholic missionary who has spent the last two years accompanying migrants along the U.S.-Mexico border. From leaving water in the desert to visiting detention centers and supporting families facing deportation, Father Ray bears witness to the human stories too often reduced to political talking points.

In a conversation about cruelty, faith, solidarity, and hope, he shares what he has seen, why he believes love is stronger than hate, and what it means to stand with people in their darkest moments. It's a moving reminder that behind every immigration debate is a human being whose story deserves to be heard.

Mentioned in the episode:

Obama Center Opening Ceremony | Reflecting Pool turning green | New World Screwworm | Delaney Hall Hunger Strike | MN Indictments | $96.7 B contribution to economy by undocumented immigrants | Knicks win! | Kansas marching band plays Algerian national anthem |

More about Father Ray: https://www.thebeliever.net/only-god-will-judge-us/

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

It's been another "37-day week" in America, and In The Meanwhile is doing what it does best: refusing to let the chaos set the agenda.

On the heels of Bill Gates' Congressional appearance to be questioned about his role in the Epstein Files, we revisit a prescient conversation from March with Tim Schwab, investigative journalist and author of The Bill Gates Problem.

Schwab walks us through the Gates - Epstein connections, and how these implicate not just the two men, but the hyper powerful institutions that burnished their reputations. Schwab reveals the dangerous alchemy of extreme wealth alongside the "good billionaire" mythology. He breaks down why Gates' "I didn't know" era doesn't pass the smell test, how philanthropy can function as reputation-laundering and influence-buying, and why the so-called "Bill Chill" keeps Seattle institutions and media hesitant to speak plainly, even when the story is screaming.

Mentioned in the episode:

As Congress probes Gates about Epstein, the Walls Close in | Is Bill Gates in the Epstein files? Probably | The Epstein files should end Bill Gates's philanthropic career | Erasing Gates Seattle's Favorite Philanthropist Faces Campus Reality Check from UW Student | NYT Opinion: This Summer, Students From Hundreds of Colleges Will Heed One Urgent Call | Half of Americans want to Abolish ICE

More from Tim Schwab:

Tim Schwab on Substack | On X | on BlueSky | The Bill Gates Problem | on LinkedIn

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In The Meanwhile, Marcus sits down with Loretta J. Ross — activist, MacArthur Fellow, Smith College professor, and one of the most clear-eyed movement builders of the last five decades — to talk about her new book, Calling In: How to Start Making Change with Those You'd Rather Cancel.

The conversation couldn't be more timely. With Democrats tearing each other apart in the run-up to the midterms and the left running on indignant anger, Ross offers something rarer and more useful than a hot take. From deprogramming white supremacists to teaching convicted rapists feminist principles, she's spent her career finding ways to reach people in order to build coalitions that win. Together, she and Marcus dig into the seductive pull of call-out culture, why purity politics is losing us elections we should be winning, and what it actually looks like to hold people accountable — with compassion, with strategy, and without burning your coalition to the ground.

Along the way, Ross gives us a pragmatic roadmap for winning, using the "truth, time, evidence and history" we already have on our side. It's a recipe for justice borne from a lifetime of hard-won wisdom, and it couldn't be more necessary for the moment we're in.

NOTE: this episode refers to sexual assault and rape. Please take care while listening.

Mentioned in the episode:

Trump bday party | Blanche canceled crybaby fund | WaPost Irizarry | Pulte BB&B conspiracy theories | Bedbugs invade administration | Charles Douglas III episode | Loretta Ross | Calling In: How to Start Making Change with Those You'd Rather Cancel | 13th (2016) | Pancreatic cancer treatment breakthrough | The Sheltering Sky

Support the pod:

Donate here to support In The Meanwhile

Follow us:

Instagram | BlueSky | Website

Read Nora and Marcus's Books:

Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise

Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission.

Logo by Nikki Barron.

Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.

Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.