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Episode Highlights

Ari [00:07:47] You know, here's the cool thing about this is. If you're hungry, right? You say to somebody, eat, not take a pill, typically it wouldn't be. Let's let's take a pill for that to suppress the hunger pangs. Although we do that in Western society, in Western medicine, a lot is, you know, do something, take something in order to suppress.

Ari [00:08:57] And I like your your analogy of walking down the hall because, you know, as I picture people piling on their symptoms as they walk down the hall. I also picture that picture of man going from straight up and starting to bend over and bend over and bend over and the weight of all of these symptoms that are causing us to all of a sudden, you know, you get 80 years old and you're staring at your feet. You can't look up anymore because your back is too arched. And we didn't do anything to take care of the cause. We only were treating symptoms and it just kept piling up.

Kyle [00:12:27] And I think the kind of the the adverse childhood experiences research aces up by childhood trauma has really brought to the fore the this connection between mind and body and how trauma and emotional trauma in early life and probably any point in life can ultimately lead. To a whole host of things, from poor educational attainment, through to addiction, through to mental health problems, through to diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart disease. So I think that's kind of opened up people's eyes because it seems that more people are aware of this cause. Trauma is such a buzz word now is named within health. Yeah.

Kyle [00:15:46] You know, the thing I preach to my clients is whatever you feel in your body is feedback. And it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's something for you to pay attention to because it's your body trying to tell you something. And it's that, again, as I've been saying, that that that message of, well, if you if you don't pay attention to it now, you there's every chance your body to punch you in the face with something nasty later.

Ari [00:16:07] Yeah. You know, that's that is that is really the key here is if you don't pay attention now. So to build more body awareness in our last episode. One of the things that you had suggested was stopping to breathe more.

Ari [00:21:29] You know, in today's day and age, we've gotten away from in some cases, that which I believe is part of the causes of massive PTSD among our soldiers is because we've gotten to this place where our warriors. It's not okay for them to express their emotions and their feelings. They have to soldier on. And therefore, they've become less able or capable of dealing with some of those emotions long term and some of the experiences long term because they don't have their comrades. There are other soldiers next to them being vulnerable with them

Ari [00:27:58] Yeah. You know, I have worked a lot with PTSD with that. And I used to volunteer at the V.A. in Los Angeles and worked a lot with Vietnam vets and so on. And, you know, there was a huge difference between the vets from the Korean and World War to versus Vietnam and and after. And I think that in many cases it goes along with the ending of things like the block party. You know, in the United States, a lot of neighbors don't know their neighbors anymore. A lot of people don't know what's going on with the people next door. And, you know, I say the block party is kind of a metaphor for tribe, for people getting together and learning about each other and becoming friends and support systems and so on. I mean. You know, especially for men, and I'm not going to say this is exclusive to men, but men tend to believe that they don't need anybody or anything more than women. Women always say we need our sewing circle. We need our, you know. And so a circle reading circle. Or support system, et cetera. It's a little more natural for women to be among other women and it's a little more natural for men to be in their cave. And, you know, I'm going to go in my cave. I'm going to lick my wounds myself.

Kyle [00:40:01] I think that's that's all that's the kind of a starting point. It's a really interesting thing within the organizational world when you're looking at well-being, I find, because there are those organizations that recognize that. Well, yeah. If we look after our employees, they they'll be productive. They'll be happy. They can stick with us. They can build careers here and that. That's brilliant. Sounds like the culture that Top-Down culture is in place where at the top that they're buying into that that notion that well-being and productivity and engagement are all linked. Mean because you give those organizations where they can.

Kyle [00:44:07] First, we've got to know that, well, this is person is a person that got a home life which will be affecting. However simple the solution may be, this is a home life mess. You know, that's going to affect them. So I think that it's really important that people because managers talk about this now as well. They say, I find that I'm managing now and I'm almost going to be a friend because what you swish, especially if I've got an older manager and he'll say, well, 30 years ago I would just be you know, you tell people to get on with it. And you you assess whether they've got the skills or the training needed. But now he said that, you know, they'll say, well, I've taught you, but I took it about much more than just the skills. And I think that's I think so that, you know. I think ruining up to that, but that's incredibly important.

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Full Transcription

Ari&Kylepart1.mp3

Ari [00:00:00] Has it occurred to you that the systems we live by are not designed to get results? We pay for procedures instead of outcomes, focusing on emergencies rather than preventing disease and living a healthy lifestyle. For over 25 years, I've taken care of Olympians, Paralympians, A-list actors and Fortune 1000 companies. If I did not get results, they did not get results. I realized that while powerful people who controlled the system want to keep the status quo. If I were to educate the masses, you would demand change. So I'm taking the gloves off and going after the systems as they are. Join me on my mission to create a new tomorrow as a chat with industry experts. Elite athletes thought leaders and government officials about how we activate our vision for a better world. We may agree and we may disagree, but I'm not backing down.

Ari [00:00:50] I'm Ari Gronich and this is. Create a new tomorrow podcast.

Ari [00:01:03] Welcome back to another episode of Create a New Tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich, and I am back with Kyle Davie's from Wales. He was on this show before I had to keep talking to him. With a longer conversation because he's so fascinating. He's a chartered psychologist, therapist, coach, trainer, author, and he's the creator of Energy Flow Coaching, which provides a framework and process for tapping into our innate ability to attain optimum health, wellbeing, creativity and clarity of mind.

Ari [00:01:40] Kyle, take it away a little bit.

Ari [00:01:43] Tell us a little bit about how come I'm having you back on here?

Ari [00:01:46] I mean, what is so fascinating about the work that you do that is so unusual that I would that I would say, hey, I need you to come back.

Kyle [00:01:57] It's great to be back. Thanks for having me again. And you really put me on the spot there. It's funny, we're definitely living in a time where there are more healers and healing modalities than ever before in history. And there's obviously a lot of good people out there doing a lot of good work. And I lose track of everything that's out there. Go back 20, 25 years. When I started practicing as a therapist, I kind of thought I knew everything that was out there. Right. And I had a handle on it. Whereas now it's just kind of mushroom drinking and there are so many things out there. But what is what's so unique about what I do?

Kyle [00:02:44] I'm sure there's probably the way I do it. I'm sure there are a lot of this, a lot of overlap in many ways.

Kyle [00:02:50] I think it's probably because I'm in a very simple level. I am looking at, as I touched on in the last show, that I'm looking at what people experience symptoms of fatigue or pain, even anxiety and depression.

Kyle [00:03:09] I'm looking at them from a perspective of a body brain in a chronic state of stress. But I actually look at it from this idea that, well, the symptom is a messenger. And if you experience a severe symptom, it's actually your body's really shouting at you. So the simplest of examples could be. Well, if I am if my body needs me to eat, it sends me a sensation in the form of very often a mild rumbling. And that's that's that's a tap on the shoulder inviting me to do something. If I if I ignore that, it goes away and then it comes back and I can continue to ignore it. But look, keep coming back and each time it comes back. Arguably it'll be a little bit more intense or it may change or morph into something else. So my I take that idea and apply it to the symptoms of the health challenges that I'm working with. The underlying that, there's an underlying message behind the symptom. And it's not necessarily that that, you know, as if the symptom has caused the symptoms have morphed, changed or got worse over time. It's not necessarily that the message is any different. So I have a book called The Intelligent Body, which is I've got my nicely positioned to find my head. And in that, I talk about something called what I see as the whole way of health and the whole way of health effectively means that people walk down a hallway and as they walk down the hallway, symptoms seem to get worse or more intense. So what I noticed in working with people with chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, Emmy post, viral fatigue is that they didn't they weren't kind of perfectly healthy. And then all of a sudden they got those challenges. For the most part, what it would seem like was that they were much younger. They would present with a variety of other symptoms. So very often people would say, well, I'm forty five now. I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue three years ago and I probably had symptoms and maybe a couple years before that. And if we dig a little bit deeper, they may say, well, actually when I was fifteen I used to get migraines, but then I went to the doctor and the doctor gave me some meds that though that went away. And then when I was a student, I began to get some anxiety and some occasional stomach upset. But I changed my diet a bit and I know things changed and that went away. And then when I was I began to get fatigue symptoms and then bit of anxiety came back.

Kyle [00:05:45] So that tends to be a pattern from the way I looked at it. People were walking down a hallway. And even though I do acknowledge that all of these conditions are sort of different, I do kind of believe that in many instances the message is large. The same, and even though the symptoms could change for an individual, sometimes they don't. Sometimes a person experiences anxiety, age 15 and age 45, they still have anxiety. It's just maybe much worse. But it could be that the symptoms change as as they get older. And again, like hunger, there seems to be this cyclic kind of nature where symptoms come and then they recede and then they come back again and either a little bit a little bit more intense or they vary. And it is almost as if the body is saying, you need to listen to me, you need to listen to the message. And I'm trying to convey. And if you don't, I'm going to show you a little bit louder. So that's one of the things. So then. So I suppose we are again, we are in with our medicalized mindset. We tend to view symptoms as bad evil invaders that we want to do something about. And we have a very symptom focused approach, which is, again, from conventional medicine, that which is will you give me something to work on the symptoms? So that's that. So there's a bit of mindset in that it's trying to get people to look at symptoms as health helpful messengers rather than looking at them as evil invaders. So that's a first cut a chunk of of my work. But it then goes into, again, like I touched on in the last show. This idea of, well, where does my experience come from? Because if my body is stressed and if there's a big chunk of emotional stress and that, what gives rise to that experience. So I try I will I do take people on something of a spiritual journey, which is begin to have them understand or expand their sense of identity, who they see and believe themselves to be in relation to kind of life. And all that.

Ari [00:07:45] It sounds.

Ari [00:07:47] You know, here's the cool thing about this is. If you're hungry, right? You say to somebody, eat, not take a pill, typically it wouldn't be. Let's let's take a pill for that to suppress the hunger pangs. Although we do that in Western society, in Western medicine, a lot is, you know, do something, take something in order to suppress.

Ari [00:08:11] If you got a headache and it's because you haven't had enough water, you've been drinking too much soda. I wouldn't say take my green pill for that headache. I'd say drink some water and you'll take care of the cause of the symptom. And we do a lot. You mentioned a little bit.

Ari [00:08:29] I mean, in our Western medicine, thinking we do a lot of symptom control vs. root cause control. And by doing that we can suppress symptoms but cause the root the make the root cause get worse and worse and worse, which is why we have this massive deterioration of health over the years.

Ari [00:08:57] And I like your your analogy of walking down the hall because, you know, as I picture people piling on their symptoms as they walk down the hall. I also picture that picture of man going from straight up and starting to bend over and bend over and bend over and the weight of all of these symptoms that are causing us to all of a sudden, you know, you get 80 years old and you're staring at your feet. You can't look up anymore because your back is too arched. And we didn't do anything to take care of the cause. We only were treating symptoms and it just kept piling up.

Kyle [00:09:42] So the only sort of interesting piece on that one for me, it's sort of interesting, sorry, on that the whole way of health idea is that what I'm trying to do is have people turn around and walk back down the hallway. And the interesting thing I think about that is that it's very often the case that as people go back down the hallway, back towards health. Is that the pattern of symptoms is often kind of reverses itself. So if I have someone say something to that says, well, actually, the first symptom I had was sleep disturbance, then it's very often that either sleep disturbance reappears or is the last symptom to go. Or if somebody says, well, I used to have anxiety before I had chronic fatigue, I used to have anxiety. Very often people say, oh, well, I haven't. I've had a month of no chronic fatigue like symptoms, of aches, pains, grateful. But what I have had is a return of my anxiety. Say, that's a good thing because you're walking back down the hallway of health. So that's that's a sort of I think that's kind of a an interesting idea that the particularly one of the things I emphasize to my clients is that the message beyond the symptom may not be drastically different.

Kyle [00:10:47] So when you had mild headaches, whatever it was 20 years ago, maybe that the message was exactly the same as it is now, your kind of what, tags with chronic fatigue? You know, 20 years later, what we tend to do, I think unconsciously, is we equate the the it's the the necessary size of the solution to the size of the problem. So if I've got really big symptoms, there's got to be a really big cause. And in my experience, that isn't necessarily the case. It could be that actually what's happened is the body's just shouting a little bit louder and a little bit louder. And if we can understand what that is, that causes because the difficulty is I you know, I can see the difficulty is, as you said, with a headache, a headache can mean just so many different things. And, of course, the type of practitioner you go to is going to is going to be viewing your symptoms from from their perspective. This is one of the things that I find is the majority, because not many people are, Vertamae. The majority of people I work with will have seen three, four, five to 10 different health practitioners before they've seen me. So they will have worked on diet. They will have had acupuncture.

Kyle [00:12:00] You know, they may have had some counseling. Used to be a number of things they will have worked on.

Kyle [00:12:05] So that, again, is probably why, even though I you know, I believe that, well, nutrition, sleep, exercise, emotion, these are all the pillars of health. Very often the people that I work with have addressed the other areas first and that they are still missing that big emotional piece, which I feel is kind of the main piece.

Kyle [00:12:27] And I think the kind of the the adverse childhood experiences research aces up by childhood trauma has really brought to the fore the this connection between mind and body and how trauma and emotional trauma in early life and probably any point in life can ultimately lead. To a whole host of things, from poor educational attainment, through to addiction, through to mental health problems, through to diabetes, stroke, cancer, heart disease. So I think that's kind of opened up people's eyes because it seems that more people are aware of this cause. Trauma is such a buzz word now is named within health. Yeah.

Ari [00:13:13] Yeah, it is a buzz word. However. Here's my question to you. Somebody is walking down the road.

Ari [00:13:25] They get a twinge.

Ari [00:13:27] They don't notice the twinge or they notice it is a subtle thing and they ignore it, then they continue to walk, continue to walk, continue to walk. And we'll say that they're walking down a really long hallway because it's you know, it's it takes time. So year long hallway. Right.

Ari [00:13:44] And. Then it gets to a place where it's on ignorable. How could somebody. Acknowledge what's happening before it becomes an ignorable.

Kyle [00:14:03] Yeah, I think that's a that's that's a great question, actually, and that was one of the things that because I started my career working in business consulting, went into healthcare, and now I kind of do both where I do kind of well-being stuff within within organizations.

Kyle [00:14:19] But what I what I found is that the fundamental principles underpin effective performance, mental clarity, intellect and stuff of the sort. The same for health, certainly from an emotional perspective.

Kyle [00:14:35] So I think the key thing is being more body aware and recognizing that actually my body has my back, my body, this vehicle that I moving around this planet on actually is trying to look after me and rather than, you know, if I can allow myself to step out, if I can recognize that. Right.

Kyle [00:14:59] Well, there is one way of dealing with things and that's trying to just crack on soldier from patch up, put a Band-Aid over it. That's one way of dealing with things.

Kyle [00:15:09] But actually, for my longer term experience of life, my wellbeing, my performance, my health, I'm better off actually paying attention if something's not quite right. Just have a look at it. Just let's just pause for a minute and figure that out. So, again, it's it's I suppose it's it's having the the knowledge that I pay attention to it now. There's every chart enough. I don't know what it is. There's every chance that it could just get worse and worse and worse.

Kyle [00:15:38] So it's that. Stop, pause. Pay attention to what's going on and be okay with whatever is whatever.

Kyle [00:15:46] You know, the thing I preach to my clients is whatever you feel in your body is feedback. And it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's something for you to pay attention to because it's your body trying to tell you something. And it's that, again, as I've been saying, that that that message of, well, if you if you don't pay attention to it now, you there's every chance your body to punch you in the face with something nasty later.

Ari [00:16:07] Yeah. You know, that's that is that is really the key here is if you don't pay attention now. So to build more body awareness in our last episode. One of the things that you had suggested was stopping to breathe more.

Ari [00:16:28] I have another kind of a question that goes along side that mental toughness vs. emotional and physical awareness, because some people believe that if they're going to be tough, then they have to.

Ari [00:16:47] As you said, soldiers through the pain. How does soldiering, through the pain make you weaker, not tougher? And being more aware of what's going on cause you to be stronger as a as a human being, as a person, more optimal. Etcetera

Kyle [00:17:07] That is a great, great question. I think one of the fundamental underpinning pillars, if you will, of my work is that when we deviate from the essence of who we are. The flow of energy, the flow of consciousness that we are. I would say our true self. We deviate from our true self. Then problems ensue. And that's when we can become ill. And I recognize that science reasonably wolly. But, you know. Okay. Part of that is when we don't allow ourselves to feel our feelings fill up. Feel our emotions and all the rest of it. So so the other one level, I would say, OK, well, I can go to the gym and, you know, deep down I feel I want to go to the gym. I want to work out. I will I will be free. I want to be strong. And it feels right. So that's me being me doing that no matter what anyone else thinks. But that's me being me. And it's I I'm prepared to kind of push myself and exert myself. And some of that's going to hurt. And now, though, I will might require what would be called mental toughness in order to push myself through over some hurdles. But in doing that, I am I would hope that I'm very aware of the difference between kind of good pain and bad pain. But also, I'm I'm doing that. I'm aligned. I'm still aligned with my true self. So I'm not I'm not you know, I'm doing whatever I'm doing because I'm being me in doing it. I think that we have a natural, innate resilience within us. But I think we have to be true to ourselves.

Kyle [00:18:47] That's a deeper sense of self than I think when we need that.

Kyle [00:18:52] Otherwise, I think if our behavior is motivated by our ego like mind or our conditioning or pleasing other people, whatever, is when our behavior is motivated from that level and we're trying to be tough for that level, then I think that's when we have problems. So I think there's this always needing to be, you know, as you know, this needing to be aware of whether whether something is good or bad. You know, I know if I'm in the gym and I work and I know the difference between the good pain and barfing. So we absolutely need that. We need to be aware. Okay. Well, is there is there something is there an issue here? But for me, that's the thing with mental toughness. I think that I can because of my work, I'm very young, because of a lot of my work is about our emotion. And there's lots of theories of emotions. There's no Nessel. There's no particular agreement on it. I'm quite a fan of the neurologist Antonio de Mazzeo. And his one of his ideas is that while our emotion and our feelings are slightly different, our emotion is a nonconscious process, which then almost instantaneously triggers feelings.

Kyle [00:20:00] So I think I draw on that idea. And when I apply it to my work, I look at it from the perspective of. Right.

Kyle [00:20:08] Well, we know that it's entirely possible for us to block feelings. We know it's possible for us to get into our heads. And if we get into a head, we can shut off from the feedback from our body so we can block out feelings. But even if we block out feelings, we're probably not blocking the emotional processes and processing that's happening. So emotion is kind of still ongoing because emotion, just like hunger needs to happen to alert you to when you know, you you you need to eat because of course, there are people and I've worked with people that say they're not aware of when they're hungry because they've learned to block out a lot of that feedback. So we can do that with our emotional feelings, but we're not blocking out the emotion. The emotions still go. So that's one of my issues with men, mental toughness in a kind of a conventional way of right. We'll just soldier on. The second is that you run the risk of just blocking out your emotional truth. That critically, for me, that's about right. Well, who I am, if I'm doing something for the wrong reasons, then it's it'll come back and bite me on the ass later.

Kyle [00:21:14] That make sense.

Ari [00:21:15] Yeah, that makes it makes perfect sense. And it kind of goes along with this saying that a warrior's greatest strength is there is their vulnerability and.

Ari [00:21:29] You know, in today's day and age, we've gotten away from in some cases, that which I believe is part of the causes of massive PTSD among our soldiers is because we've gotten to this place where our warriors. It's not okay for them to express their emotions and their feelings. They have to soldier on. And therefore, they've become less able or capable of dealing with some of those emotions long term and some of the experiences long term because they don't have their comrades. There are other soldiers next to them being vulnerable with them.

Ari [00:22:17] And I think, you know, in some cases, it's moving back a little bit towards that.

Ari [00:22:22] But, you know, in more of an older time, a soldier that was injured or was experiencing something had all of the other soldiers to be there, directly provide that community support, which allowed them to soldier on.

Ari [00:22:43] The vulnerability was their greatest strength because it brought them closer as a unit. Right. And so I believe that, you know, with PTSD and some of these other things, that we could use more emotional intelligence and community support around the vulnerability aspect during the crisis's.

Ari [00:23:09] Or at play after so that we don't have to bring them home with us because we've been stuffing it for a year or two. You know what I mean?

Kyle [00:23:18] I'm telling you, there's a couple of points I'd like to make with that. So I think that's. Firstly, I think that we have probably have a tendency to medicate people too quickly and believe that there is a problem too quickly. So if if if a person loses a family member, for example, they will go through a grieving process. And we understand that there is a grieving process which could give rise to anger, depression, anxiety, a whole host of emotions and possibly symptoms that could arise as a result of that process now.

Kyle [00:23:53] So I view that because I think that we have an emotional system reset. So I think that we are designed to come back into balance in exactly the same ways as our physical body does that, you know, if you if you if you were running down the road and you fall over you Graziani, it really hurts. But, you know, if you do absolutely nothing, your knee will heal itself. Yes. It goes through a process where, you know, a scab forms over the knee that's really itchy and you want to pick at it. But ultimately, if you leave it be, your knee will heal. So understanding Belloc. Well, OK, well, part of that kind of idea of the scab forming and a healing in it being itchy and it being uncomfortable, and there's there's there's an emotional equivalent of that. So I think you're getting over trauma that there is you know, you kind of go through a process and understanding that. And so for me, that's that's kind of important. One of the things that I say my corporate work is that when I talk about resilience, I see people that are resilient. So they don't feel any things, not that they like really happy all the time, but they they feel everything. So which is exactly the point you just made, is being vulnerable and allowing that is really important. So 18 months ago, I went through divorce. It was all a big shock for me. It was devastating to put me on the floor, but I really had to kind of walk my talk and recognize that I've gone through a process of trauma here. And that's going to mean that there's going to be a my my emotional experience and my just, you know, my kind of health is going to be impacted to a certain extent. So I need to expect things to happen. But crucially, that emotional system reset will kick in as long as I get on with life. So it's I think it's really important that we continue to move forward with a sense of purpose, with a sense of meaning and recognize that, well, yeah, even in, you know, moving forward, there is I'm going to be experiencing stuff and that's okay if I stop moving forward. And I fixate on the fact that if I was like, oh, no, I don't feel good. This is not I mean, this shouldn't be happening.

Kyle [00:25:59] Maybe I should take some drugs. I think that's when things begin to go wrong. I think if we I think I think people are far more resilient than we currently have to believe. I think that the experience of life at the moment is that we get this I think a lot with young people is that there is this sense that you not only have a nice car and a nice job, you've got to you haven't you got to be crushing it. You've got to be having a good time all of the time. And I think the problem with that is that there is a lack of tolerance for what are the ups and downs of life. You know, life is filled with ebbs and flows. And there is you know, there is bliss and happiness and there's loss and sadness and, you know, all the rest of it. And part of being a human being is having the experience of all of those. The fact that we can experience those contrasts. And isn't it wonderful that we can. And none of it is a problem if we allow ourselves to recognize. Will all of that naturally flows if we don't leave? If we don't judge it. It will naturally flow. And it's not that it's a problem, as I say. I think that too quickly we get in and we look at it as this is this is a problem. So I agree with that thing on PTSD. I've not really done any work with PTSD with soldiers, but I'm really curious. I would be really curious if the support was there, but camaraderie was there. Whether that's, you know, in the forces or whether it's, you know, when they're when they're kind of back home and even if they're back on City Street, but also whether if they're if they're having this if they're engaged in something which which enables them to feel a sense of meaning and purpose, and then they feel it moving forward in their lives.

Kyle [00:27:36] You know, I think that they can. The chances of of going through the ups and downs, the healing process are facilitated. You know, but if there's a you know, something. All right. And there's and there's and if they're not engaged, anything that enables them to get that meaning and purpose out of life, I think then the problems can can ensue if. Does that make sense?

Ari [00:27:58] Yeah. You know, I have worked a lot with PTSD with that. And I used to volunteer at the V.A. in Los Angeles and worked a lot with Vietnam vets and so on. And, you know, there was a huge difference between the vets from the Korean and World War to versus Vietnam and and after. And I think that in many cases it goes along with the ending of things like the block party. You know, in the United States, a lot of neighbors don't know their neighbors anymore. A lot of people don't know what's going on with the people next door. And, you know, I say the block party is kind of a metaphor for tribe, for people getting together and learning about each other and becoming friends and support systems and so on. I mean. You know, especially for men, and I'm not going to say this is exclusive to men, but men tend to believe that they don't need anybody or anything more than women. Women always say we need our sewing circle. We need our, you know. And so a circle reading circle. Or support system, et cetera. It's a little more natural for women to be among other women and it's a little more natural for men to be in their cave. And, you know, I'm going to go in my cave. I'm going to lick my wounds myself.

Ari [00:29:43] Right. And when I'm ready, I will then come back out. But we used to have a lot of men in the cave. We used to have rituals for four men, more that would. Initiate them into a tribe. Right.

Ari [00:30:04] And the tribe has been diminishing the tribal versions of of getting together to get together nowadays seems to be. Let's go get a drink and dinner and then, you know, and chat about whatever beating around the bush, so to speak. Small talk, but not very in-depth that we save that in depth for maybe if we choose to go to a psychologist or if we choose to go to a therapist, which still is not necessarily a support system. And so that's where I believe the.

Ari [00:30:47] The work needs to be done, more is in creating systems where we can get together and discuss our emotional intelligence and discuss our philosophies.

Ari [00:30:59] And, you know, I had a very similar experience as you in the last.

Ari [00:31:06] Year and a half. Divorce and.

Ari [00:31:10] And I probably did the opposite of you. I went into my cave. And I fought myself for a long time and I never felt like I had my tribe because my tribe to me as it was in Los Angeles. And so they're not next to me. They're not here with me. They can't come over and comfort me and listen to me while I'm screaming and crying. So I'm just gonna do that myself.

Ari [00:31:42] And I probably would have had a much more effective. Part of that year and a half.

Ari [00:31:51] Had I reached out more and said, I need help, I am in this place of vulnerability and I need help.

Ari [00:32:01] And that is such a difficult thing. For me to do for for most people to do so.

Ari [00:32:10] What would you say? I know what I say to people who who do that get over yourself and start calling people, you know, who your first friend. But what would you say to somebody who's going through such a tough time that it's affecting their physical health, their mental health, et cetera?

Kyle [00:32:28] I'm well aware as a first step, pretty much the same as you're saying, that, to be honest with you, because I think there is that again, you know, Polly, vagal fear is pretty big now in children, not because one of the things that that talks about is really when you look at how that translates into every practice. It's like, well, the most important thing is the relationship between the therapist and the client, which is all about connections. So, you know, that says, right. Well, we we can regulate ourselves through breathing, but very often we regulate each other through connected to each other as social beings. We need to connect.

Kyle [00:33:00] And I think, you know, so I. I agree completely with what you're saying. Another thing I would say over here is that men used to go to the to the pub probably much more than they do. So I think you've got that thing that you you don't have the sense of community so much you do in little places. But a lot of the time, not so much of people. As you say, people don't know the names of people that go out so much. You know, people don't go out for a for a beer or whatever. So the shared experiences are not necessarily there. So, yeah, I do. I would say as a starter, exactly the same as you to pick, because I do think that intuitively that's what people want to do.

Kyle [00:33:40] It's just that, of course, historically, those support systems, those connections, they were just already in place. You've got to think about it was because now we do have to think about it so that it's recognized. I think a lot of what I do is trying to get people to tap into what what feels right for them. So I would I would do what I could through a coaching session to invite somebody to to allow the natural intuitive sense to come to the fore. My my sense of it is that when that happens, that people would say, well, you want to reach out. I want to connect. I want to I want to feel this either is OK. I was going to be OK. So it's OK. Well, how can we do that? So yeah, it's it is it is a case of reaching out and and then explaining as well. Right. Well, if you will kind of go into a cave and I think women do this as well. And I think probably more so maybe now know that there are probably more women. I may be wrong with this, but my sense is that the way things have been historically, that is certainly within the organizational world. Things that I see is that very often women take on a more of a masculine energy, a little bit more in order to try to facilitate their journey or their career path. So I think that you can get women with with the balance of masculine and feminine energy. Maybe they displace more masculine traits. They may well go into themselves. And I think, again is for me, it's sort of an educational process identified.

Kyle [00:35:12] Well, what was the results of that? You know, how are you feeling? And what's you know, how long have you been feeling this? Are things improving or argue, you know, how is that working out for you kind of thing? Well, this may be an alternative because understanding that this is where we came from, we came from that space where we connected. We regularly teach. We regulate each other through connection. It's naturally from primates through to humans is naturally what we do is we this is one of the things that's been interesting about kov. It isn't. It is the with the social distancing and people being locked in their homes is that naturally we want to touch people. We want to kiss. That's what we regulate each other through the we want to hope, we want to connect. And that's actually what most children will do. We'll see. So we all really want to do that, but it's allowing that natural kind of tendency to come out. So I suppose that's a pretty big part of what I do is trying to get people to recognize that, you know, who they are, but also that the natural sense of what feels right for them.

Ari [00:36:18] Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you've you've mentioned our new world. I try to stay a little bit away from the debates about covid because my opinion is typically more nuanced rather than extreme and more based in science rather than in politics. So I get away from it a little bit. But the fact of the matter is, is that distance makes for people to. What's our suicide rate at this point? It's skyrocketed. We've you know, that is a stress response to isolation and lack of connection. And that alone is so damaging. But, you know, one of the things that I like to do and you do a lot of corporate work as well as that as I have, is I used to consult the companies both on their wellness as well as their culture. And one of the things that my suggestion is to them. Is that they begin to have fire side or fire circles. And what I mean by fire circle is you put something in the middle that is a focal point of energy and I call it a fire circle, because that's more of a tribal way of looking at life. And you take a company and you take the employees and you put them in circles of. Of care, so to speak, so they can actually say, here's what I'm here's what I'm doing, here's what's stressing me out. Here's the things I'm going through in life. And, you know, they say, don't mix your business and your personal life.

Ari [00:38:08] But when you're at work eight to 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, your life is your business, your personal and your business are the same.

Ari [00:38:18] And so this is a way that we can kind of come back to that tribal. Kind of community where we have the support system of our fellow employees who probably are experiencing a lot of the same things that they're not talking about. And, you know, the biggest cost to any company is what's called presenteeism, which is the stress that causes somebody to be at work and not be productive at all. They're basically absent even though they're physically there. And that's caused a hundred percent by stress and lack of focus due to other focused meaning your issues, your problems. And so it behooves a company tremendously financially to take the opportunities. To shift their perspective from hard costs, right? And say, OK, we're going to take a day, maybe once a quarter, maybe twice a quarter to really get our employees on the same page with each other. So we now know what we're struggling with and we can be of support. What are some of the ways that you have worked with companies to. Take care of their stress responses and their, you know. There, their employee health.

Kyle [00:39:52] I mean, I think that's, you know, what you've talked about, there's such a great idea. And it's interesting, going back to what you said before, you were saying that about culture.

Kyle [00:40:01] I think that's that's all that's the kind of a starting point. It's a really interesting thing within the organizational world when you're looking at well-being, I find, because there are those organizations that recognize that. Well, yeah. If we look after our employees, they they'll be productive. They'll be happy. They can stick with us. They can build careers here and that. That's brilliant. Sounds like the culture that Top-Down culture is in place where at the top that they're buying into that that notion that well-being and productivity and engagement are all linked. Mean because you give those organizations where they can.

Kyle [00:40:40] Well, yeah. People seem to be stressed. So let's just try to do something. Well, let's even tick a box. So let's get it going to run a workshop and to just try to kind of, you know, give people some tools that they can deal with their stress. So the first thing is always trying to try to split enlighten organizations. That's okay. We can do so much with with with your staff and what.

Kyle [00:41:08] Well, I'm always looking to do is is empower people to understand again. Talk about emotion. Talk about stress. Talk about what they can do. But critically, unless we're looking at how to adapt that cultural piece, then it's it's not going to work. Well, also, I think the other thing is that it's it's really interesting what you you kind of talk about, because I've been in the back that example that that kind of firepit example is that, you know, I've had been through a few organizations where we, you know, they've brought me in because they want they fit well. We got people off on stress. We run a workshop on stress. So let's get a guy and get him to run. We can teach people about stress and what, because at the end of the day, they may have bought an off the shelf come a stress workshop and I'll go in and I'll try to tease out. We'll put it. What does this mean? You know, what actually is going on? What is stress mean to this organization? How people affected. And it's not uncommon for it to be things like, oh, actually, we used to run meetings. We had to have this big team meeting like once a month. But we saw stop doing that now. So because people are on the road a lot. People kind of have people talking to each other as much. And Bob in this team doesn't know what Dave is doing or Sally is doing and therefore generally and that it can be while you may be right, because we thought that meeting was a just time-Consuming pulling people in off the road. It actually was hugely beneficial because even though it's kind of work related, it did give people that opportunity to talk about, well, everything that was going on for them.

Kyle [00:42:48] So it's very much the same thing, I suppose. It's because we need to be connected. We need to be talking. And I think as well, the other point you made is that one of things I've noticed go back 25 years. I think when I started my career within organizations, there was much more of a division between, well, this is work life and this is home life. We work. We talk about work. We talk about your skills. We talk about your training. If there's anything about outside, we're not we're not interested. And for years, I was bleating on about what a person as a person. So if somebody got shit going on, then negative, they're going to bring that, too, to work. You know, it's gonna be affecting the work. It could even be something very simple. You know, you could have people that maybe they don't realize that how important sleep is and they're on their X box till 2:00 a.m. every morning and then they're getting up at six, two to two to work. And if they're working on a job that is required that meet, that may impact the lives of others. Maybe they're working on a on on a rail network, on a road, or maybe they just in general to be it could be everywhere. And if they're doing something which which is impactful and they're there, therefore their performance is affected by what they you know, the amount of sleep they're getting home, simply informing them of that is useful. But we got to know what they're doing at home.

Kyle [00:44:07] First, we've got to know that, well, this is person is a person that got a home life which will be affecting. However simple the solution may be, this is a home life mess. You know, that's going to affect them. So I think that it's really important that people because managers talk about this now as well. They say, I find that I'm managing now and I'm almost going to be a friend because what you swish, especially if I've got an older manager and he'll say, well, 30 years ago I would just be you know, you tell people to get on with it. And you you assess whether they've got the skills or the training needed. But now he said that, you know, they'll say, well, I've taught you, but I took it about much more than just the skills. And I think that's I think so that, you know. I think ruining up to that, but that's incredibly important.

Kyle [00:44:52] And it is finding some way of bringing in your kind of a fire pit, a side idea where people can get together, have an opportunity to share, to vent, if need be, to tool, to understand the process, to decompress. All of those things. And in the absence of that, yeah, that's just going to be a huge issue.

Ari [00:45:16] Yeah. You know, I used to be part of a group called the Spark Group, which was based on the old mark scripts of the late 60s and early 70s, is very, very hippie culture ish. But we had a process. We had a process called Withhold the Withhold. And you basically you're sitting in a circle and you would say something along the lines of, Kyle, I've been withholding something from you. And you'd either say something positive or something negative. Right. I've been withholding something from you. I really enjoyed our conversation the last time. And I so was looking forward to having you come back on. And I'm you know, I'm sorry that it's taken so long. That's an example of like a positive withhold, a negative withhold. You know, Kyle, your accent. I just want to I just want to tell you, I just it's like chock-a-block, you know, fingernails on a chalkboard or something. Whatever it is, it could be deeply personal or it could be, you know, some.

Ari [00:46:19] But the point is, is that you're sharing with somebody something that you wouldn't normally share with them, which then draws you into them and allows you to become closer with that person either way, because now it's out in the open and you get to, you know, express it and then it can dissipate because there's awareness that's been brought to it. And that kind of a thing to me is such an important, valuable aspect to distressing yourself. And any time I've gotten away from doing that and being that kind of honest, it's bit me in the butt, including things like, you know, divorce and so on. I've been such a self. Enabled the person most of my life that it's hard for me to ask for help when I need it. And that has caused much of the trauma that I've experienced in life is not the traumas, but not being able to ask or express. That the trauma after it's occurred has caused more trauma than the actual trauma has. So you deal a lot with debilitating symptoms and a lot of that becomes what is comes from stress and trauma. So what would you say to somebody who has been dealing with chronic chronic pain for a while, comes into your office and says, you know, I've got this chronic pain. It's it's, you know, made me have mental fog and mental fatigue. And so now I just don't know what to do. I'm really tired and I don't sleep and I'm tired and I'm I'm not sure what to do. What would be your initial response to somebody like that and advice?

Kyle [00:48:26] So once we've got over the the first bit of understanding what the diagnosis is. So say, for example, somebody was coming in and say, well, I've got fibromyalgia, so there's nothing structurally wrong. I've been diagnosed, you know, but I've have presenting symptoms of unfreedom for a period of time. And this is the diagnosis I've had. So I have a plethora of symptoms, muscle aches and pains, brain fog, fatigue, all the rest of that. So there will be some of those symptoms that will arise as a result of having symptoms. And we need to understand that the first thing I'm doing is going back to what we using what at the start, I'm trying to offer people a perspective on what might be causing symptoms. So I will be saying, OK, well, my approach is that this is what's causing fibromyalgia. It's caused by a body. And the brain is in a very simple way, is stuck in a state of stress. And that leads this this chain reaction that takes place, which results in symptoms. So we have to come back and look at the symptoms as useful.

Kyle [00:49:29] Messengers and people with fibromyalgia and and similar conditions will experience fluctuations in symptoms. So most people will experience a baseline level of symptoms that seem to be ever present and then symptoms that go up and come down over and above that. And I will say, well, what's happening is, is that when you notice an increase in symptoms, it may be that you've checked you try to tune out for it because they seem to be there all the time. But we need to tune back in because we're approaching it from the perspective of my body's trying to tell me something. When you notice that increase in symptoms, we want to translate that back into a message. And in many instances, it's something to do with emotion. What's happened to to our emotion? And then there's a behavioral implication of that. So it's either about emotion or I'm kind of if the way I phrase it, I'm deviating from the flow of my true self. The idea being that I'm you know, this this is part of us that just wants to be who we are to flow. And if that is inhibited, then problems will ensue. So that's how that's how I start. And it's, again, very often when people have symptoms of chronic either chronic fatigue or chronic pain, they are looking to give you some to manage my symptoms. And it's just that I need to manage my life. You know, my symptoms got worse. It's two 30 on a Thursday afternoon. I was kind of OK in the last half an hour. I notice my symptoms get worse. Oh, crap. That's going to mean X, Y, Z. I need to get home. I need to lie down. I need to. So I'm turning that around and say, OK, well, you met you might be that your body's not necessarily telling you to rest. It may be. So we need to have a look at what's going on both externally and in situ so we can understand what might the message be behind those symptoms. And as I say, this is why the diagnosis is important, because when when the symptoms are, you know, come into that category of medically and explained invisible, functional, those sorts of things that I am I am coming from it from the perspective of.

Kyle [00:51:39] All right. Well, it means that my old way to look at it saying, but we've got to stress back and the stress bucket is overflowing. And to say that stress bucket is, you know, what goes in there can be environmental, physical, emotional, even though most of what I'm looking at is the deeper, more complex emotional patterns. It's you know, I am factoring in that thing of, you know, well, if you've had a transatlantic flight and you've had eight beers on that flight, you know, there's a lot that's all I in your stress bucket, you know.

Kyle [00:52:12] So we have we have to factor that. So if you're more prone to symptoms, you know, if you get to the hotel the other side and your room's not ready. That might be the final little piece which triggers massive symptoms for you had you not at a transatlantic flight. And there's a place it could be that, you know, that little upsets of your. Not being read. If you're a local mother may have not triggered some symptoms and symptoms. So we're trying to trying to decipher it that way. But in many instances, it's a bigger, bigger emotional thing. But that's to say that's how I approach it is from there when people begin to say, oh, yeah, actually, because initially people say, oh, I get my symptoms all the time. Let's just have a deep look. And then they'll say, well, actually, yeah, those symptoms do increase. I do get times and they're worse. So then we begin to get there are patterns.

Kyle [00:53:02] So everybody will have their key triggers which relate to what I think a deeper life lesson issues, if you will, for each for each person. So most people will have between three and five kind of key triggers, which are emotional triggers for them that ultimately lead to symptoms. And then the the difficult work is then and this is dealing with that sometimes. It's a it is a simple acknowledgment of of emotion and of a behavioral change. Other times it can connect with a deep sense of self and how I see how I see myself in relation to the world. And that is that's a little bit harder, a little bit harder to deal with, you know. That makes sense.

Ari [00:53:44] Yeah. I mean. That's awesome. And.

Ari [00:53:52] So I and I. So how I relate to. Some of what you just said is I look at life on a physical, energetic, you know, emotional level, right. So if I'm watching a nervous system. In my mind, the nervous system has a trigger that is a stressor and the nervous system then lights up with electricity, start sending chemical signals that cause inflammation to certain areas, that inflammation is the beginning of disease. And if you look at the locations of the nervous system that lights up like somebody who has joint pain, you were talking about fibromyalgia. Joint pain is when you're in fight or flight. All of your blood flow goes into your extremities and out of your organs, thereby causing your organs to not work properly, especially if you're in chronic fight or flight. And it causes your muscles and your joints in your extremities to start having pain symptoms of, you know, over inflammation. You get joint pain, you get chronic fatigue, you get a eventually fibromyalgia and things like that because your nervous system is so inflamed. And your body is in fight or flight and the inflammation is spread out from there, away from your organs, thereby causing your body to not function properly and causing your muscles and joints to have pain. So that's how I look at what you just said. It's my way of of explaining in my own mind what you just said. And I hope that that explanation kind of helps some of the listeners as well if they're assessing. OK. So where is my body right now? What is what am I feeling? What is what is the trigger?

Ari [00:55:58] And you can see somebody driving down the road and all of a sudden, you know, somebody cuts them off. Is that a trigger for you? If it is, where do you feel it? And I think that this is one of the ways that people can begin to have that self-awareness that you keep talking about as it comes to stress symptom, you know, stress symptom, disease, basically. Is that about.

Kyle [00:56:27] You know, I go with that totally. I think that my my approach has been very much kind of at the coalface, if you will. So it's I've always been interested in trying to figure out what works for people. So there is a little bit of science in in in what I say. But I've always been much more focused on. All right. Well, this is your experience. I'm you know, I've got this simple scientific perspective. What what I need, what I focus all of my attention on is how we can how can we make something practical out of it that you can do something with that is going to help you get to where you need to be. Because obviously there's this you know, this huge debate about exactly what, you know, when you've got people with chronic fatigue and MIF fibromyalgia to what exactly was going on was the cause and all the rest of it. And you can get you know, you can get down a rabbit hole, get lost in all of that. And this is our my my focus has always been trying to get people on into a process that seems seems to work. But, you know, I totally go with everything that you just said that kind of also makes sense to me. I suppose I'm looking at it from, you know, which again is it's theory, but my theory is, well, it's almost a little bit like, you know, if that nervous system is just constantly ramped up. So rather, you know, if it's if on a scale of one to ten, it's normally rests around a three. So it's like it's on a Saturday. So it's already seems like you've already got your foot on the gas pedal. So it doesn't take much to spark something. And yeah, so I'm looking for that emotional piece with more and more, probably more often than not. But there's so much that I don't understand in terms of the intricacies of kind of what's going on at a cellular level within the party.

Kyle [00:58:32] But that's that just hasn't been my focus, really.

Ari [00:58:38] Thank you so much for listening to part one of this interview. Stay tuned for the next episode when we resume this conversation right from where we left off.

Ari [00:58:51] Thank you for listening to this podcast. I appreciate all you do to create a new tomorrow for yourself and those around you. If you'd like to take this information further and are interested in joining a community of like minded people who are all passionate about activating their vision for a better world, go to the Web site, createanewtomorrow.com and find out how you can be part of making a bigger difference. I have a gift for you. Just for checking it out.

Ari [00:59:15] And look forward to seeing you take the leap. And joining our private paid mastermind community. Until then, see you on the next episode.