Create a New Tomorrow

We cannot change how things are. How we interpret them, ultimately depends on our view of the world and on how we perceive them and what can we do to make a change in this world. “Peace is at every moment. Peace begins with yourself.”

Melody Garcia, Global Influencer, Transformation Catalyst, and Socially – Responsible Entrepreneur. She is an International Best- Selling Author, Award-Winning Sought-After Keynote Speaker, Thought Leader, Writer, International Media Icon, Transformational Catalyst Coach, and Humanitarian. With over 20 years in Fortune 100 Corporate Management and Leadership, Melody has a proven track record of building winning sales teams, business processes, coaching, development, and mentorship, and extensive experience in hiring practices call center management, and more! Melody is a Certified Green Belt Six Sigma, along with extensive leadership certifications and high-ranking accolades that boast of her winning mindset and expertise.  Her entrepreneurial spirit, combined with top executive commercial industry expertise, gives her a lethal edge in a visionary focus, balancing microscopic attention to detail and macroscopic implementation for increased revenues, connectivity, and staying power of any marketplace. 

Mark Anthony King is a “Master of Words”. He delivers soul-searing messages in both verbal and written form, engaging his audience to deeply reflect. Mark Anthony King is a three-time best-selling author, publisher, award-winning motivational speaker, and one of the most sought-after multifaceted coaches who specialize in Social and Emotional Intelligence. He is also a Neuro-Linguistic Programming Master Practitioner, as well as specializing in Timeline Therapy, Weight Loss Management & Holistic Health, and Strategic Intervention. His incredible love for people has allowed him the privilege of coaching hundreds of clients from all nationalities, age groups, and walks of life in the areas of relationships, leadership, curing lifelong phobias, helping clients achieve physical transformations into their healthier version of themselves or helping a suicidal individual rediscover the beauty of life.

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Ari Gronich

0:00

Just like what we're doing. So, yeah. All right, we're going get started now. Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host Ari Gronich and today I have with me Mark Anthony King and Melody Garcia. It is a double feature for you all. Marc Anthony is a serial entrepreneur, master of storytelling, multimedia persona and a global leader, with a focus on the kingdom of humanitarian impact. His business handlings include a master's in nutrition, health for optimization of overall wellness, and well-being. A Master Practitioner and NLP, strategic interventions of emotional intelligence, etc. His partner melody is part of the global peace. Let's talk with 35 countries handling co-leads of UNICEF, unite Orlando, and international multimedia handling. They're about to launch their sole script, which is a podcast media column and TV show. Is that like a breath full?

Melody Garcia

1:13

Just a pinch. And that was the short form bio. 

Mark Anthony 

That excited me. 

Ari Gronich

1:21

You know, here's the thing, I have been told that I'm going to be in people's pockets, so that when anybody asks them what they do for a living, they just pulled me out. And this is what Ari says. So why don't you guys kinda of tell a little bit about yourselves, Mark, I talked to Melody before, so I'm going let you get started. Tell a little bit about yourself. Why am I talking to you? What is it that you're doing that's going to help create a new tomorrow? And, you know, let's get going.

Marc Anthony King

1:56

Alright, so my name is Marc Anthony King. As far as why you're talking to me, you can thank Melody Garcia for that for putting us into it's a contact. You know, I full disclosure, full transparency. I didn't know the name of the show until right now. And I absolutely love that. You know, we live we live in an age where can I be candid? Or do I have to be like, super politically correct here?

Ari Gronich

2:24

No, there's no political correctness allowed. Okay, perfect. No, no, you're not allowed to censor yourself at all.

Marc Anthony King

2:34

Alright, so we live in an age where, unfortunately, the leaders and the trailblazers in the world are just horribly narcissistic, and the things that they're doing, and the things that they pride themselves on, and what's important, it's all self-glorification, at the end of the day, you know, so you asked what it is that we're doing to make a better tomorrow. Again, speaking, truthfully, we have the audacity to put God first and put service to humanity. Second. And that's an interesting concept for a multitude of reasons, you know, and I'm not going to get into religious discussions or religious debates. But my greatest mentor, Jesus Christ said, that the two things that we should do in this world in order, it's service to God, and then service to humanity. And somehow a Melody says that she was at best, when you put God first and humanity second, God finds a way of putting you first. You know, I never thought in a million years that I'd be doing the things that I'm doing now. It's, I didn't plan for it. And when it started happening, I asked myself a, no disrespect, but are you sure God that I'm the right person to be doing this? Because it was never on the plan, you know, and we become so myopic in our desires, and we become so like, single minded and tunnel vision in terms of what it is that we want, but ultimately, at the end of the day, that might not be in alignment with what God wants for us, you know, and when we surrender in that regard, we allow Him to place us where he wants us, the impact that we make, it's not self-serving, it's not self-glorifying. It's all to glorify Him and what better way to glorify Him then that actually doing something to create a better tomorrow, not hypothetically. Not conditionally, but literally, and long, long story short, short story long at this point, I'm sure. We were now in a position where we're handling the and I say this humbly, and I say this with so much gratitude in my heart, the welfare of 36 Different nations across the world, you know, and when I say welfare, I'm talking about hygiene products, I'm talking handling internally displaced peoples, orphans, preserving pygmy cultures, teaching children about their rights, teaching women about their rights, women's empowerment, agriculture, bringing in food, bringing in clean water, bringing in infrastructure, into incredibly remote areas. You know, these are, these are responsibilities that I don't take lightly. And one of my greatest pleasures aside from talking about God, and how amazing God is, and how amazing that woman is, right there on the screen underneath me here is doing what I can everything I can, you know, Melody has an amazing prayer that says, God, use all my gifts, talents, and annoying things and maximize everything that you gave me so that I can help make the world better, and help people, you know, help me help them. Being able to use that platform to talk about what it is that we're doing, and who we're helping is, is become the greatest joy of my life at this point.

Ari Gronich

6:09

Cool, so I'm gonna interrupt you a little bit.

Marc Anthony King

6:12

So I was I was rambling at that point.

Ari Gronich

6:16

I don't know this about me. But I'm a very non-religious person, very spiritual person. I've studied pretty much most of the religions in the world, like, at a young age. And so I was, you know, nine years old, and I was I was in Hebrew school, from the time I was like, five. And then I started when I was nine, practicing Buddhism. And through Buddhism, I met my girlfriend, who lived on a reservation, and I started practicing and studying Indian way, and native way. And from there, I ended up studying Druidism and the Quran, and I kind of just love studying religions, in general, but I don't find myself in the same kind of state that you find yourself in, right, as far as like, having a specific and direct person that I think I'm speaking to. And so, I just want to I want to open this up, because the things that you're doing are amazing. Some people who are listening to this show are not going to resonate with the words that you're using, as far as God kingdom, King, you know, those kinds of things, they might resonate with the word source, they might resonate with the word universal truth, they might resonate with a lot of other things other than those words, and I want them to get turned off to the things that you're doing because of the words that you're using. Right. And so, I just wanted to emphasize that the things you're doing are amazing. To me, they have nothing to do with anything other than what's in your heart and your soul. Not so much a higher being that you're answering to and so I have a question for you. The question is serving God serving humanity itself? Because if we watch or listen to the scriptures that you talk about, and I will, there's a lot of stuff that says that we are in the likeness of God. So, by serving humanity, are we not serving God?

Marc Anthony King

8:39

I would say it all depends on the intention, right? Because I used to fall into this category, many moons ago where, you know, I wanted to be seen and I wanted to be praised for all the good works that I was doing. So, at the end of the day, you know, it wasn't about God, and it wasn't about humanity. It was about Mark Anthony Kings ego. And that intention is everything. It's relative, but it's everything you know, so I would say yes, if your intention is pure and not self-glorifying,

Ari Gronich

9:16

awesome. Melody you're up all

Melody Garcia

9:19

Alright. What did you want me to cover? Everything about me? Was more Granville law.

Ari Gronich

9:27

Why you're why you're helping to create a new tomorrow today.

Melody Garcia

9:31

Well, so many platforms. We talked about UNICEF as one of the handlings you know, back in 2016. I decided to go with a what is the world's largest children organization that's known and then recreate that in local Orlando what was UNICEF. We live in a world that keeps basically putting up the message let's leave a better planet for our children. Let's leave a better planet for our children. Well, let's use some common sense the planets won't resolve its own problems. Without better leaders, you know, a lot of the handlings that I have along with Mark as coaches, I'm one of the few certified PMA coaches in the world. What does that mean? Psycho neuro actualization? What does that mean maximizing the human potential? One of my, the person that certified me in this is Dr. Steve Miraboli, one of the top behavioural scientists in the world, right. And let's pair it down to simplicity here. A lot of adult’s root cause problems can be traced back to their childhood. We call the childhood trauma, and a lot of that from abandonment issues, abuse issues, you name it, that shapes them, to who they become in the adult stage. So, my genius basically said, Well, then let's leave better children for a planet. If I can impact at those young foundations, whether whatever their social, economic, cultural, whatever status background is, and show them what is love, what is fairness, what is equality, what is not having all this boundaries that have been imposed, almost impossibly by the adults by the environment they live in, then we can better leaders for tomorrow that started with that, you know, and giving sensitivity to your audience. But echoing Mark's sentiments were again, heart centered servant leadership, right? I was blessed with the opportunity to not contain it in just representing 190 countries my journey spoke about the first time I decided to say use me to help them not to glorify Melody, that very first event brought on impacting and saving over 20,000 lives halfway around the world, which is a lot more than what people can ever dream of in their life, collectively. So, I decided, okay, well, you know, I did that was my one all be all, but God had different plans. That was just my beginning, came UNICEF. And then he didn't contain, and I have the passion, the purpose once you truly have what Mark has, is a clarity of His purpose and impact. What is his life legacy message? You know, it's not just about boards, because as he beautifully puts it, beautiful words aren't always true. And the truth isn't always beautiful. Right. And that's a powerful statement to make. Will, lived authentically. It went from well didn't stop there. When we tap into the gifts that we have talents, gifts, anointing, whatever you want to call it. I discovered I have his love of passion for writing, well, didn't stop there. All of a sudden, that little column became a well-known column in many nations and started winning awards for it. So now I'm going to call him this for three international magazine that has anywhere from 11 countries to 74 countries reach, but it didn't stop there. Right comes global peace, let's talk that literally got handed to myself and Mark to now lead 36 countries, the handlings we have are massive. 

Ari Gronich

12:59

purpose is exactly the global picture.

Melody Garcia

13:02

I had more. I'll let Mark lead that. And then I'll add whatever you missing as far as global peace, let's talk.

Marc Anthony King

13:09

So global peace, let's talk is an organization that was founded by somebody who's become like a sister, dear friend, mother figure to Melody and myself. She again had the courage and the audacity to say yes. And to do something that shouldn't have worked. That seemed far-fetched that seemed insane at the time. And through sheer determination through sheer love and compassion, she has created this organization that as it stands, as of right now, is in 36 different countries, and has now what? how many members that we just recently add, like as of not too long ago?

Melody Garcia

13:58

So, we just added an additional 35,000 members with global peace, let's talk it's early concept very simple, because the founders in her 70s, in the UK, was just to spread peace unknowingly that intention brought on everything that needed to line up and in 10 months Ari. This is just a 10-month-old Foundation, non-profit 10 months. We're in 36 countries. It’s incredible. It's almost unbelievable. And unless you're with us in those meetings, we are meetings with politicians, you know, from different countries, we are in meetings with leaders, entrepreneurs, but what really touches us as when we hear from people on the ground, what they're going through what the media doesn't cover. This is why Mark and I have the audacity to speak what is true, right? How are we changing a better tomorrow when we hear people from Cameroon, Africa being hunted down worse than animals and being slaughtered at that? When we're hearing about children try, you know, have groundworker saving children that have been violently assaulted. And all they're asking for Ari is a piece of paper and crayons so they can continue with art therapy. This is Yeah, art therapy.

Marc Anthony King

15:18

Soccer ball so they can kick it around.

Ari Gronich

15:21

So, what exactly does the foundation do?

Melody Garcia

15:25

Yeah, so we support these 17 sustainable goals of the United Nations, which everybody can Google that part. But then it's not only supporting with message, so for example, to fight famine, we have an agricultural program that literally provides food on the ground, and then not only do that, but also somehow create an entrepreneurship program. So that people are sustaining their livelihood.

Marc Anthony King

15:54

Yeah. Bringing repeatable, scalable, sustainable infrastructure into these impoverished areas.

Ari Gronich

16:01

Cool. Question, which new technology is being used and how much old technology is being used in what you're bringing? So, things like for agriculture, how much soil are you teaching or creating soil garden, versus hydroponic in warehouse and things like that?

Marc Anthony King

16:23

So currently, Kurt, you know, that is the goal, the goal is bringing technology into the equation because I always found it curious, you know, we invest so much money into smartphones, right? Smartphones cost over $1,000. Today, I mean technologies is growing at such a rapid pace. And as humanity, we're evolving with it in every area of our life, except agriculture. agricultural practices are still like 60 years old, and we're still implementing them today on mass. To me, it makes no sense. Why would you allocate so much resources to a phone, when a phone, you can't eat a phone? Unless you're David Blaine, I'm sure he's eating a bunch of iPhones in his career, but you can't eat a phone. So, the whole goal is eventually to make sure that we are leveraging as much technological advances and applying that to where we're growing food. But currently, I mean, it is we're doing what we're doing in America, at this point, where what we're doing now is though, we have this this really big parcel of land that we just acquired, we're going to use that to create an agricultural Academy, where we physically matriculate students and we teach them how to grow food, we have an onsite, really, really large garden growing, you know, things, things that grow well, in certain parts of Africa, like Yuka, and sweet potatoes, potatoes, cabbage, Moringa. And, again, taking those products and then selling them and using that to create infrastructure within the community, in addition to online academies, because we're looking at opening up the schools in different parts of the world. But right now, we're looking at, um, is it Botswana now, where the first school is going to be open? Yeah.

Ari Gronich

18:19

Botswana?

MG

Melody Garcia

18:20

Botswana, Africa. And we've also got

Marc Anthony King

18:24

We have a land in Kenya now as well, right? 

Melody Garcia

18:27

Yeah. But we've also got Jamaica with their initiatives. And, you know, you talked about agriculture and technology, right. So that's part of one of our contacts in a different country, is helping us bring it to a level where at least we can use modern technology to expedite some of these initiatives. We are actually also creating new programs that bridges gaps, instead of that whole stay in your lane message that we talked about. Part of that is creating like a child ambassador program that will connect children around the world that shows leadership. Remember, I don't know Ari where you ever were you? Did you have some knowledge of old pen pal style, where you make friends by writing letters.

Ari Gronich

19:13

I'm an old fogy at this grace

Melody Garcia

19:19

But do you remember when we used to write to friends from a different country and how excited we were to get that that letter?

Ari Gronich

19:25

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Pen pals  was a big thing nowadays it's you know, Facebook WhatsApp.

Melody Garcia

19:32

But there's so much mystery and just excitement when you get that letter stamp from a different country, and they send you pictures. It's recreating that in the newer modern version of child ambassadorships. But we're looking specifically for children that have demonstrated leadership and a global thinking. Right, what does that create peace, what does that create collaboration over competition? 

Ari Gronich

19:57

Right. So, I have a good friend who has a non-profit and motivational missions. They do a lot of child trafficking, work and education, but they also travel to like the worst places on the planet and do talks in prisons in like South America and stuff like those beliefs. In Dominican Republic and all-over South America, they do these motivational missions to help with child trafficking. Do you guys as part of what you do team up with other non-profits and other organizations that are doing good? Or are you looking for people to just join in on what your thing is?

Melody Garcia

20:49

Now we're actually in collaboration mode, but we are highly vetting any type of partnerships or invitations or collaborations. Because, you know, unfortunately, in my walk with UNICEF, right, as well, I've done a lot of call to action against human trafficking and drug trafficking and skin spit up statistics pastored, and a lot of people can and just the platform of trafficking, which is again, you know, the solid pandemic. Oh, yeah. Well, the statistics are this it's $152 billion industry well-funded, there has over four 40 million victims worldwide.

Marc Anthony King

21:27

For the viewers, she did say billion with a B. 

Melody Garcia

21:31

And child trafficking right now over 5.4 million children million are being trafficked. Right here in Florida, where I live, Florida's the third highest state reported when it comes to trafficking, right. People and this is just, you know, a side-line educational piece for any adults, parents, aunts, grandmothers, you name it, anybody that has an association with a child, watch anything that has to do with their social media handlings. From Snapchat, it Tik Tok, to Instagram, because a lot of traffickers are masked as predators mask as other children or teenagers. And people don't think about this that lures them. Because there's commonality, parents, if you have GPS tracking devices on your phone, specially when it comes to Instagram, social media, turn it off. All you're doing is literally giving these people triangulation of your activities. In fact, here's one thing, that's because we live in a social media world of posting everything that has to do with your children, and everything. I would encourage you to really restrict that and take you know, what are you promoting? Why are you showing your children all the time? Yes, we love we love their accomplishments. But you have no idea who's actually looking at your materials. More often

Marc Anthony King

22:54

I know personally, individuals who have been trafficked by way of Facebook, they found themselves sold into human trafficking, because they began chatting with somebody on Facebook and within a few months, this individual was sold to a pimp.

Ari Gronich

23:19

Yeah, it's amazing. The craziness that is happening right out in the open. And the fact that people aren't recognizing what's right in front of their faces is kind of like it is very telling. So, the one of the reasons I wanted to have you guys on is because you're actually doing the things that most people are talking about doing. Right? So, I have this saying, and the saying is we want to stop gathering to complain and start collaborating to succeed. And collaboration is the main part of that we want to collaborate for results, right? So how do you guys collaborate, you've been collaborating with governments I want to get like a picture of what that looks like. So that people who are feeling like, that's just too big for them to be able to do I could never meet with a politician, I can never meet with a government official. Right? So, they could get an idea that this isn't like a big deal. There's they're just human beings like us, right?

Melody Garcia

24:26

It’s not, for example, and then I'll let Mark also explain this. For example, my work with UNICEF unites Orlando, it's an advocacy team in with beautiful, intelligent members and leaders. However, what we start is just knowing it starts with educating yourself, what are the issues? Right, what are the root causes when we do advocacy, for example, you know, this is my fifth-year advocacy Mark have the honor of actually leading part of that advocacy this year. It was literally meeting with members of the US Congress, right? And humanizing the statistics that they say, my story sure shares, everybody has a story. That is the one thing that that literally ties humanity is through story shares. But we tell stories. And then with that comes the other platforms that we represent. I'm sure people can tell stories. That's what they call their friends for. It starts as simple as that. You know, it doesn't have to be this Oh, my goodness, we're meeting with the senator from a different country. That's a whole different global thing. But it starts with a Let's educate ourselves be how can you, you know, for those that are interested, whether it be UNICEF, whether it be global peace, let's talk, I'll drop our email here on the link on how they can connect with us and to learn more. But it's really simple. It starts with the desire to make a difference.

Ari Gronich

25:48

Right. My thing is, what I see is that the barriers of fear people have stopped them from being able to do the things that they're complaining about. So, for instance, in my town here in Florida, every time the politician runs for office, it seems like the biggest deal is the roads and the potholes. It's like the potholes. The potholes. 

Melody Garcia

26:21

You're definitely not in Orlando. That's

Ari Gronich

26:23

Not in Orlando, right. Closer to the beach. But it's like this is a big, big deal for people, the roads, the roads, the roads, right. The things that are really important. Like, we have the river, you know, Indian River, I mean, it's being completely polluted. We have, we're right near an Air Force Base, and Space Center, and all that. So, we see all of the environmental damage, but the issue is the potholes. So how can people get away from? See, I think that people are going after the potholes because they think it's something that they have control over. And I don't think that they think that they have control over the environment and the policies for the environment or agriculture, the policies for agriculture, the policies for human trafficking, I don't think I think that that feels too big for somebody. And so, they go after the potholes. You think. 

Marc Anthony King

27:35

I, I'm so happy that this isn't centered here. I, you know, absolutely. I hear and I appreciate what you're saying it's on the journey. I think we all experienced the same thing where I want to make a change, but I don't know where to start. I want to help animals, but do I join PETA? Do I join the ASPCA? Do I join the Humane Society, and you kind of sort of get so bogged down in the variety that you have, you know, it's like, you have that phenomena that occurs where you have 10,000 channels, but there's nothing to watch. So, a big part is just being decisive and just making a decision. It doesn't have to be the perfect decision. At the end of the day. If you choose the ASPCA and you don't like it, you learn something, you contribute it, then you can move on to the Humane Society, right, because you got an education. So, education, be decisive, and get an education and use it accordingly. You know, and in terms of the pothole that Melody and I say, have the audacity to care about humanity more than you care about yourself. You look at the people who've created the greatest change people who we admire who we love, who we tried to emulate like Mother Teresa, a poor little Indian woman from Calcutta who didn't have a whole heck of a lot of money. And yet every single world leader was at her funeral, and she died. Why is that? She wasn't worried about the potholes. She wasn't worried about how the potholes inconvenienced her journey. She wasn't worried about how the potholes affected her rims or her suspension for her commute. She had the audacity to care about other people who never even knew she existed. Who would never even know she existed care about them more than she cared about herself. You know, there's something to be said about experiencing compassion. Compassion means I understand. I empathize where you're coming from, and it hurts me to the degree that I'm willing to help you. That's why I'm not an advocate of complaining. Why? Because complaining eases pressure. Why is it that a whole bunch of people can gather together at an event complain? accomplish nothing, but they feel good? At the end of day.

Ari Gronich

30:01

Like every protest I've ever seen.

Melody Garcia

30:04

Yes.

Ari Gronich

30:07

Just saying every protest I've ever seen, and especially what happened last year last summer. Especially what happened last summer, was letting off the steam. It's a pressure cooker. Right? So, here's my question to you, then we don't want to let off the steam, we don't want to let off the pressure. What do we do instead of that, because if we're in a pressure cooker, at some point, the pressures either gonna get too big, and it's gonna blow up, or we're gonna let it off slowly, you know, or we're gonna, like, protest and create some violence and let it out that way. So, what is what is your solution? I know you're an NLP master. So, you gotta have something.

Marc Anthony King

30:52

When and we're gonna use the pressure cooker analogy. So, what happens to anybody who's ever used a pressure cooker, if you open the pressure cooker right away, it explodes. Literally, it explodes. But what happens when you take that little nozzle and you just turn it sideways, you have a consistent stream of pressure, I don't believe in keeping everything bottled up, I believe in taking what would have otherwise resulted in an explosion and channelling it into a consistent stream. What that stream looks like, that depends on how much you're willing to care for humanity, that depends on how far you're willing to go to solve a problem that depends on how, how resourceful you're willing to be. You know, I know that for myself and for melody that, obviously, you know, we were in in Orlando, and basically, during between the month of October and mid-January, we're just heavy that is when UNICEF is in its heaviest humanitarian work. You know, all you got to do is drive around a certain part of your town. And you look at the living conditions of people. That should break your heart, but it should anger you. It should anger you to a point where you don't post on Facebook about it. And ease the pressure. You find out how you can actually help. You know, Melody and I were we're in a trailer park called Oh, goodness, what's it called? Happy oaks. Something? Well, it's one of the most unprogressed trailer parks in Orlando. And you go there, and it's like a third world country. I remember vividly the property manager, he manages 25 or 26, semi-trailers that are there. You would think that he would live in the best trailer and the best home there because he manages everything. This man lives in what looks like a shack, like that was abandoned a long time ago. And not only does he live there, but he lives there with his wife, and his six or seven grandchildren. You know, you see something like that. It doesn't matter if you don't know what to do you, you buy food, you donate money. You know, it's like a phenomenon where I want to make a change, I want to help somebody, but when the homeless person walks by my window, when I'm at a traffic light, all of a sudden, I'm pretending to text or I'm pretending to look in my glove compartment or in my center console. Or I'm just I happen to be looking this way when I know that he's over there. You know, we sometimes things are painful, right? And it hurts to see certain people's living conditions and it hurts to recognize what's happening to our children in this world. You know, it's painful to know that child trafficking is 152 human trafficking $122 billion a year. Industry and it's happening right in front of us. It's painful. I got scolded. While I was speaking to shocker. I was speaking to a senator's office, or was he a senator?

Melody Garcia

34:23

It was a congressman.

Marc Anthony King

34:25

Congressman, can I say his name? No, okay. I was speaking to a certain Congressman's office. And I got scolded because I shared my particular story. My battle with mental health since I was a child, every label I was given a DD ADHD dyslexic, socially anxious, being epileptic. These are all labels I was given and then being sexually abused by Men and by women as a child, I told this story, right, because we connect via stories. Well, UNICEF attempted to silence me and the congressman, his office, we got into a bit of a 12 round fight, right. And at the end of the day, just knowing that people like that are in office, people who are willing to disrespect not just the struggle of the individual, right, me, but are willing to hear a bunch of individuals say, we need your help, we need your support, because there are girls right now in Africa, being raped on the way to get water that us in America wouldn't let our dogs drink. We need your help. And for that office to turn around and say, you know what? We don't support that. Because we need to be helping kids in our borders. Because, you know, white children are more special and more worthy of protect than those black children in Africa. Knowing that people like that exist, should light a fire and everybody in the way that they vote. And in the compassion that they're willing to have when they look at children, and when they look at that homeless man down the street. 

Ari Gronich

36:25

We're shitting on people a whole lot. Right. So, it should do this. And it should do that. I get that. But there's a huge population of people who can't see in front of their own shoes, because their own shoes are holy, their own shoes are tattered and worn, because they're working two and three jobs, and they don't have time to think of anything other than trying to survive, right. So, I get that we're shooting on what people should be doing. I think most people, most people these days, are in a heightened state of fight or flight, their nervous system is completely out of whack and not working properly. We're reactive instead of responsive. So, we react to triggers versus respond to events, and truth, in fact, right? So, all of these should that we're shooting on people, right? What is it that is going to take us to actually care about us? Right next door. So, we have the world sucks chart, right? The world sucks chart looks like this. It's me as an individual. Right? And then my family, and then my community, and then my county, and then my state, and then my country, and then my, you know, common, right? The world sucks chart, because most people are stuck in the individual, maybe individual family in order to get to the worldview, where they're literally able to take that bigger picture view, you've got to go through individual trauma and pain and sickness and illness, then family pain and sickness and illness, then you got to go through city, you know, pain and, you know, illness. I mean, the pain and illness may be the roads, it may be the fraud and the politics, it may be any kind of thing, right? But we got to go through these layers in order to get to the worldview for most people, just jumping to that worldview is almost impossible. So, let's, drop back. Yeah, absolutely. Let's drop back into step by step it.

Melody Garcia

38:53

Right. So, I'm gonna start with a question for anybody who's listening, watching, you know, this interview? What is the value of a human life, whether it's yours, whether it's your child, whether it's your parents, whether it's your neighbourhood? Starts with that one question, because you're right, it starts with it. It all starts with us. We're not expecting people to jump on a global scale here. I'm asking you what Mark had alluded to, are you sensitive to the human suffering that when you see that homeless person on the side corner, what's the first thing that comes into mind, judgment? because that's what we've been hearing a lot. Oh, that person's not really a homeless, they're good. They're pretending to be rich, and you know, they're pretending to be poor, but they actually use this money for something else or the labels that we give them. They're alcoholics, they're gonna use that money for drugs, literally human nature is to automatically judge the situation. Let me pull it back with say what Mark said compassion. 

Marc Anthony King

39:52

Compassion over condemnation.

Melody Garcia

39:54

Right? What if we change that perspective and story? Could we literally stocks, You know, spare 50 cents or $1, or just even ask for their name Mark does something beautifully that I haven't seen in humanitarian space a lot, which is as simple as an act of kindness, that when we're doing our humanitarian impact, is to ask for that person's name that we're serving. What's their story? You know, a lot of this homeless folks in the Orlando area, surprisingly, are what veterans, people who served our own country, most of the time they're not even looking for, for the dollar 50, it's really interesting, sometimes they just want to be listened to, and that the act of compassion is free. So, I'm going to scale it back to start with that. So, you pointed out a really good picture there. Ari, we live in a world that is reactive, versus proactive. We live in a world that are judgmental, versus compassion. So, if we look at this behavioural modification of just retelling it from a different focus, what if you were that person in that person's shoes right now? Wouldn't you want somebody kind to at least lend an ear? Or maybe five minutes of your time it starts with that, you know, it's free. It's really free. When you look at it.

Ari Gronich

0:04

Cool. thank you.

Melody Garcia

0:05

You're welcome.

Ari Gronich

0:06

Bringing it back down, I just like I said I'm not, I'm not. I don't want to shame people. Because, frankly, like, people been told their entire lives, right, let's go to weight. They've been told their entire lives that they're fat, because of their particular habits, or particular kind of eating their particular way. Most of those people were never told that eating a low fat, high carb diet was going to make them more fat. Right? They weren't told they were told the opposite. And so, I think most people, they're not at fault. They're not at fault for the chemicals that have been put into their food. Right? They're not at fault, or the policies that have allowed poison to come into play, right. They're not like Nestle having a contract with the state of California to take out the water for like 70 cents, like per million gallons since the 1970s. And having that negotiation, never, you know, be renewed. Letting Nestle take that water allowed the fires, the droughts, the temperature changes, the amount of water not in that state is directly because of bottling, right? We can kind of target these things. We know this. Yet. The people are being told that they're responsible that they need to make the changes. I think that the changes need to come from the people to the politicians, right? So, the politicians, but how do they even know? How does Joe Schmoe? Like, look, I was at a Walmart, and I asked for the grass-fed meat and the guy in the butcher department didn't even know what I was talking about. He didn't know what grass-fed meat meant. So, if we think the people who think that we know, and that and who study this stuff, who know all kinds of information about it. Right? We think that everybody should know the same information we know. But most people haven't a clue about proper nutrition, about proper health about proper, you know, wait, not even most doctors know about how to create a lifestyle of health. And so, we stop blaming, I stopped, so I stopped blaming I get let people off the hook. It's not your fault. Now that you know that, right? What are you going to do about it? But at first, it's not your fault. You have been deceived. Right? So, for people who are wanting to change the world, right? And step up and step out of that comfort zone? What do you think that they need mentally, to get to the point where they can even think about something outside of I'm surviving?

Melody Garcia

3:13

So, I'll start with a couple and then I'll turn it over to my trusted co-everything here. It starts with what is truth, not my version of truth or your version of true, what is true at this given moment. Right, that starts with that education, just like you said, the butcher didn't even know what grass-fed cow is. But we assume he should know because that's his part of his profession as a butcher, but they don't. Right. So, what is true? What is true in that picture? is there's a disconnect, about our assumption, our expectation and their learning. Right? Number two, did we judge them that they should know this? You know, you were talking about the shoe that you were throwing? So, the second question is asking that question, why don't you know this, then you're going to discover this whole mantra of well, we're no longer trained. We just we just expect people to read the label. Right? I'm like the butchers in the olden days. So, what is true in the current situation? Let's start with that. suspending all judgments, right, suspending all the expectations what is true, not my truth, not Ari’s, truth, not Mark truth, but the factual statement at the moment. Right. Because like you said, we saw those protests we saw the marches, we felt every, the whole world was watching everything that was happening last year, but yet there were the silent people in action that are moving. You gave birth, lack of a better term Ari to a podcast that wanted to highlight the people that are making a difference of changing the world for a better tomorrow. That came out of a desire to make a difference for yourself. Right and find like-minded people that is doing this very things that that we're talking about right now. Instead of complaining about those things, that's a start. Right? Wouldn't it be beautiful if people actually had a gathering of solution driven thinking versus complaining?

Ari Gronich

5:11

That's what I've been developing is Solution Summit. 

Melody Garcia

5:15

So imagine if it starts with two people. Because that's what started with myself and mark, and then it just grew in teams, but it has to start somewhere. So why not start with yourself and just grab one person? And then rapid fire?

Ari Gronich

5:30

Here's the thing. I have an entrepreneurial spirit; I have I am absolutely not risk-adverse. Risk is like, my life, right? I don't remember a time in my life, where I've felt safe. I felt comfortable. I felt, you know, any of those things settled that most people feel in life. Okay, so I recognize my personality, I'm not gonna settle for anything ever. I can't, I don't know how it's not in my DNA. That is not most people. And so, I recognize that in me, I am this type of person who will not ever settle. Who will not ever see the world as something that's done something that's finished something that doesn't need fixing, or doesn't need optimizing, I've actually taken the judgments out, I go, is that system optimized? Or is it sub optimized? If its sub optimized? How can we optimize it and make it more optimum? Right, take out the judgments completely. But I recognize that about my personality, I don't know your personality, I don't know your personality. Right, I would imagine that the fact that you've done what you've done means that you have a fair amount of risk, you know, to safety ratio, where you prefer a little bit more risk than safety, right? Because it is very risky to do what you're doing. And for you to go off and do that is takes it requires a certain personality type. So, here's my thing for the people who are not that personality, who do not have an entrepreneurial spirit who are born to be in the assembly line. They are trained from birth to be this cog in the assembly line, I do this, it goes down the line, the other person does that. Right? The other person does this. And then that whole product is done. But I'm not the master. I'm not the guy who's gonna cobble that shoe in turn, make every single piece of it perfect. Got it? You know what I'm saying? Like, there's personality type for mastery, and there's a person a personality type for an assembly line. So, the question becomes, how do we get the entrepreneurs who are moving things forward? Instead of the 1% That set tends to keep things stalled. Right? How do we get the people who are moving things forward, To then activate the assembly line to create the assembly of what we what needs to happen. We have the visionaries I get it. You're a visionary. You're a visionary Mark, you're a visionary, a Melody, I get that. So how do you move the people who are not visionaries into your way of being thinking, or at least acting?

Melody Garcia

8:39

Mark, you go first?

Marc Anthony King

8:40

That's a really, really good question. I really, I thoroughly enjoyed that. When you're looking at, like you said, the visionary and the assembly line. I think that self-awareness is a priceless gift. A lot of people who should be in the assembly line, want to be leaders, want to be leading the pack. And that's going to cause chaos and calamity on its best day. And a lot of people that should be leading the pack have allowed themselves to be convinced by their own volition or by other people that they belong in the assembly line. So, I think there's something to be said about knowing who you are. And honoring that truth, honoring the truth of that and being where you belong. You know, Ari you have gifts and talents that I could never dream of having. So, it is Mel and vice versa. So, I think that that is critically important for because everything starts at leadership. Everything starts at leadership. Just like with families. how well your family does is a product of the leadership in the household. So, I think that there's an expression that I love that the majority of people are going to defer to the highest resonance in the room. Right? So, it's critically important that we bring in compassion and selflessness to leaders which is difficult, right? Because we live in a world that glorifies selfishness. And if leadership at the top is entirely self-focused and self-involved, we're not going to really get anywhere, because you're not doing your job as a leader at the end of the day leaders are supposed to produce a result. Absolutely. But it's your job to inspire and to teach. And based on what your goals are, and based on what drives you, what makes you get up out of the bed is it for you to leave a legacy, is it for you to become rich and well known powerful is it for you to make sure that, you know, one homeless person was seen that day and felt heard, I think flipping that script and flipping that switch from self-focus to, to just compassionate and not self-sacrificing in a in a negative way. But like we said, being willing to do for others, what the vast majority of people aren't willing to do. And I mean, there's only so many ways I can say compassion, compassion, compassion, compassion. Stop being selfish compassion,

Ari Gronich

11:28

Right? So where does the whole concept of, you know, put the mask on your face before you put it on your kid's face come in?

Marc Anthony King

11:38

Well, it starts with the self, you know, you have to make sure that we talked about self-awareness, but you need to figure out what's wrong with you. First, if you are a leader, and you want to make a positive impact, you need to figure out what your shortcomings are, you need to deal with your own trauma, you need to open those doors, that you worked tirelessly to bolt shut. You know, you can't have compassion for other people. If you're holding yourself to an immeasurable standard, and you're constantly criticizing and condemning. And it's almost like pennants. If you've seen that movie, with Tom Hanks, What's that movie? The prequel to angels and demons, The Da Vinci Code, there's this remember that guy that was constantly whipping himself? You know, leaders do that to themselves all the time. You know, if you're constantly in a state of war with yourself, or whatever the case, you're not going to be in a state of peace or compassion with other people. So that whole concept of putting your mask on first, I do believe that you can only help them bless other people to the capacity that you're able to do it for yourself. But once you've got yourself figured out, evolution, right dictates that we don't just stay there. Because if we just stay there in the self, we've become stagnant. And ultimately, you know, how much of this mental health crisis is just a product of I'm gonna say, inadvertent narcissism. It's just a product of inadvertent focus, you know, when you are this, there's 8 billion people will 7.9 something. But there's almost a billion people on the planet. It's a big world. And if everything just revolves around us, we're a pretty insignificant presence when compared to everything and everybody even when compared to those people at a town hall meeting. You know? So, I think that once you've got the cell figured out, once you've brought in compassion and understanding and a little bit of grace, it's only natural to extend it outward. How far is up to your discretion? It can stay within your family, your community.

Ari Gronich

13:54

So, NLP, Ben, how does somebody start the process of figuring out who they are when they've never even heard that concept of, I know who I am, I like to, I like to watch a TV, my football. I know who I am. I know who I am. I like to, I like to study and read books. And you know, I know who I am. 

Marc Anthony King

14:17

Like, the voice change for those two individuals.

Ari Gronich

14:22

We have stereotypes, right? We have stereotypes, what are the stereotypes? Stereotypes are simple. You don't want somebody who's you know, as your neurosurgeon cutting in your head saying, Now, here's what we got to do. We got to cut your head, I don't want may, you may want that tremendously. It might be an awesome thing, but you'd rather say, you know, here's what we got to do. We're going to cut a hole in your head, and we're going to chord. Yeah, universal knowledge, you know, you want to hear totally different. We have stereotypes, most of them for a reason. Which is kind of odd. But the stereotype that I'm putting out here is most people don't know what they don't know. They don't know themselves. Because they know, nobody's ever told them to investigate themselves. Nobody even says, what do you want to be when you grow up anymore? It's more like, how do you want to make money? You know? So that's the question. You know, we're, we want to help people activate their vision for a better world. We want to help create a new tomorrow today. People need to have skills and tools to do that, right? we already know like, if they wanted to get part be part of global peace, let's talk they could contact you. But they may not know that they could do that, here or here. Right? You may have told them that, but they may not felt like that was an invitation for them. So how do you get them to feel like this is an invitation for you? And LP? might do that. But you know, let's kind of talk a little bit about that. How does one feel like the invitation is for them to start moving and start doing and start feeling and.

Marc Anthony King

16:19

I'm gonna let you take that away, Mel, I want to see what steamer.

Melody Garcia

16:25

Like, let me take a step back here Ari. Prior to my entrepreneurship adventure of roller coaster of what the heck am I doing? And the three of us can relate to that I was in corporate management for two decades. I'm very familiar with this one.

Ari Gronich

16:45

That's your two years old?

Melody Garcia

16:48

Sure. Yes. Thank you for that. But yes, I wasn't sure if this is an audio or video or both type of podcast. But I get that all the time. Yes, since I was two years old for the sake of your listeners. But basically, you know, and I have a lot of those people that were just following that you give them a duty check, you know, and they're happy. They're happy with that their content. But this is the truth that everybody comes through what they do with it is a whole different matter. There's one question that ultimately shows up. I've seen this in annual reviews, performance reviews, because I mean, a lot of these people are like, Oh, am I going to get a raise this year, for the 12 months that I've done my checkbox, right? And then it sucks completely sucks. When you're being rated from one to five, you fall on the average? Right? Eventually, that's what led me out into this adventurous world. But here's the one question that's always showing up, there has to be more to life than this. It's gonna be That's why even in assembly lines, they look for promotions. They look for those merit badges. There's a competition sense of competition that happens within a corporate life. So, we can make people feel valued. That's the word what is your value? Right? People want to be contributors, even in an assembly lines. If not, then people will be happy with minimum wages and not want to have goals or any of that in life. But again, it's that label if you're an assembly line, most of you drop that enough. That's how they exactly go into perform. But if we start with there has to be more to life than this. You weren't born to live in a box. Tony Robbins says this. You weren't born to live in a box to drive a box to work in a box to type in a box and drive back in a box, spin in a box, turn on a box and then go to sleep still watching a box. It's not a box life. But somehow people have decided they were going to put you inside the box. Right. But yet, even in assembly lines, there's hierarchy. There's promotion, because people want to constantly prove to others, they're better than when they started or how they started. So, think about that. What is the value of human life? There has to be more to life than that. So, if we were to bridge out all the learnings in the last hour that we've been talking, right, whether it be NLP PNA, home in, in my case, in Marks case, we say God, right in the middle of everything that we handle, and Ari with your learnings. We don't start to remain stagnant. So even those people that are watching television shows somewhere in their history line. I love asking that question. What is the deepest adversity that became a catalyst to your purpose? What is the deepest adversity that became a catalyst of your purpose?

Ari Gronich

19:51

So yes, that of normal people sitting on the couch watching TV.

Melody Garcia

19:55

Absolutely. And you know what? Yeah, the quality of your questions determines the response and the focus that conversation is going to have see people that you pointed at people that comes together in a crowd to complain someone was leading that complaint, someone festered, that complaint, and someone ended it with a complaint. But what if you're that one person, regardless, if you're just a clerical start-up, you know, I don't even know what the minimum wage is at this point. And just ask that quality question. What can you do to make a difference in this world? What is the deepest adversity that became a catalyst to your purpose? Do even know what your purpose is? or even as simple as this, what did you want to be when you grew up when you were a child? Because somehow along the way, we all wanted to be some kind of doctor or superhero actor or something. Right? It starts as simple as that. It's a fun question. So, I'm going to ask you that, for example, Ari, when you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up. Okay. And why did you want to be a veterinarian?

Ari Gronich

21:01

Loved animals, liked medicine, I had a friend whose dad was a veterinarian. So, I spent like my ninth grade or ninth year in life, this summer, working for the veterinarian and helping with surgeries and stuff and doing all the things that veterinarian assistant would do. But that was why

Melody Garcia

21:22

And what was the fondest memory of you doing that job?

Ari Gronich

21:27

I'm not sure I had a fond memory of it was pretty gruesome to watch, but you know I really doing I enjoy doing stuff. You know, I always wanted to be doing things that were productive. My parents though, see, my parents had Amelie in the garage. You know, we have boxes of Amway. LOC sweet shot masks, you know, we had all that stuff. So, for me, I grew up with entrepreneurs, entrepreneur parent's, every everything was, what hustle can we try to get. And so that's how I was, that's how I perceive everything in my life. I was also a martial artist, gymnast, baseball player. I mean, I did a lot of sports, long distance cycling. And so, I was always very active, and very, using my own creative energy, I also wasn't a fan of people very much. Most people didn't like me. I had been raped and molested, and I was, you know, basically, treated like, because I was Jewish, I was treated like I killed Jesus personally. And so therefore, I shouldn't be alive. I mean, you know, there's, my history is very specific to the person that I've become. Right. I wouldn't wish my experiences on anybody. And I know that those experiences were uniquely directed at me. So that I could be who I am. But that is a lot of self-awareness that comes from I went to ask when I was eight, I did Life spring and landmark in the forum and Cyworld and CEO, space and IB, I mean, I've been in the world of self-development, alongside being in the world of being traumatized my entire life. So, it's like side by side went hand in hand. And so, I, I assume nothing. When it comes to other people, and how they grew up and what their thinking is, I assume nothing. I only can ask questions. Because the truth is, is that no matter how much I think I know what's in somebody else's head. I never have and I never will. Because most people don't even know what's in their own heads.

Melody Garcia

24:08

But do you see what just happened here? I would not have discovered that unless I ask you those questions. And here's the truth, the truth of the matter here. Yes, you know, stories tie humanity together. But so, this adversity and suffering because none of us has spared from that as we go through life. It comes in different forms. You and Mark were very transparent with your abuses. You know that came painfully and the reasons why you're both advocates in different forms is because of those traumas. You went through personal development because you're trying to heal and find answers from those traumas. And I can almost bet you with accuracy. Everybody that you come across, whether it's the guy that's watching TV, because that's what brings him joy, at the moment, right at the moment has gone through some deep suffering themselves, because that is unfortunately, the one thing we can avoid in life, from childhood to adulthood. But there's also this humanity that is, you know, there's a part of humanity that is true, regardless of what background you come from, is the desire to be good, the desire to be accepted, the desire to be loved. That is something that three does desire to be needed and desire to be part of something beautiful. 

Ari Gronich

25:31

How you know that that's part of everybody's belief, because I've met people that is even close to what they believe.

Melody Garcia

25:41

It's not so much as they believe it's how you deliver that question. It starts at something happens in their childhood. 

Ari Gronich

25:50

I understand that. I'll give you an example I used to do. We used to do sweat lodges in the prison system in California. So, we'd go into California Youth Authority with a bunch of gangs, people who thought that they were really tough, and we'd get them into a sweat lodge, you know, native ceremony. And what we considered the stones, the grandfathers, the ancestors, you know, gangbanger might think that they're tough, tougher than 100-degree temperature sitting, you know, in a womb dark with some stones sweating their pants off, right. And so, we could cleanse out and shift behaviour right from that. And I had somebody who had come to once they had gotten out of prison had come to the sweat lodges, and said, one night, you saved somebody's life tonight. And what are you talking about? I was about to go retaliate and kill somebody. And I came here instead. Right? So that's somebody being, in my opinion, having that that belief, like you were talking about, there's other people who are in that system, not only would they never have even thought about it, they would never have considered not killing that person, it wouldn't have even been a thought in their head. Maybe I shouldn't do this. Right? So, here's the thing, yes, the history of that person is going to be directly involved in where they're at now. And I don't believe in evil, I believe in optimum and sub optimum, right. So, their state of affairs that they're in his sub optimal mental state, right. In order to get that person to a cleaner mental state, would take probably a massive act of tools, a massive act of tools, concentrated active tools. But I've never seen that person or those people who have who are in that position in the moment, calm themselves enough to be in a place where you're where you're talking about them being.

Melody Garcia

28:28

Well, it's not Yeah, it's not in that moment, but sometimes one question would ignite that spark as simple as what happened? What happened to you or what happened? opens up a doorway of discoveries. Right, should they choose to stay there? That there’s choice. Am not trying to save that person, when there's nation waiting for us to step up. But here's what's true, every day we delay, more people suffer. Every day that we decide to not do something about there's another crowd writing that complains about. Well, I don't want to be on the second or the latter crowd. The three of us certainly don't. That's why we're having this conversation this afternoon. Right. So, it's just something as simple as it goes back to that what happened, the simple questions, it goes back to the word that Mark said compassion, it goes back to you Ari, the audacity to say what is true, uncensored, right? Whether you be in an assembly line, whether you'd be a CEO or a high-risk entrepreneur, find out what is that link that connects to that the ability or desire to want to do something, I am not going to condemn you. If you're the person that decides no, my happiness is watching that box. Because I've done my time. Right? It's very interesting what then what I can learn from me during the time that you were doing that time so that I can gain wisdom or lessons or under the table. But I'm going to gain something from somebody all the time. What I do with that, that's my choice and prerogative.

Melody Garcia

30:13

He ends this with a grunt. 

Marc Anthony King

30:17

I had to drop that that little baritone, you know, you're, in my opinion anyway, for whatever it's worth, you're absolutely correct in that regard. We, you know, we're students and teachers at the end of the day, but part of having that compassion awakened inside of you is, it's just that, you know, not judging and condemning because you don't know, there's an expression that I absolutely love, which says, If you were to spend 10 minutes alone with your greatest enemy, you'd realize they have way more in common with them than you thought. Because as different as we all are, there are certain intrinsic, inherent needs that we all have, you know, as different as we all are. And in the multitude of ways, we all, we all cry when we're sad. We all, you know, bunch of our fists, and do that when we get upset, we laugh when we're happy, and we have people that we love, and we have we want to love and be loved. Despite how incongruent our actions might be at the moment, you know, everything is for the pursuit of that. Now, our vehicles might be different. But the intention is that and I think that part of leading with compassion is, again, asking those questions is learning to recognize suffering, where it's apparent, and it's not being, addressed, but also suffering where it's silent, and it's being cleverly disguised? You know, with a smile or with jokes, and with an eccentric personality, like Robin Williams. And at the end of the day, it's learning to ask those penetrating questions because it's in that moment, right, where you have the gift of allowing somebody the opportunity to contemplate themselves, their situation and their life in a manner that completely goes against what they were taught, and what they experienced growing up. And it's in that little moment, it's in that little spark, where healing can take place Now will it take place? That's, that's up to the person, but you create those pockets of opportunity for goodness to flow,

Ari Gronich

32:43

Right, Creating the space. So, I admit, I've been playing devil's advocate a bunch today, because I like to spice things up. I have a buddy who is a compassionate communications guy. He actually went to prison at some point in his life and ended up having to really utilize those compassionate communication skills. And ended up basically being like the prison counsellor, for you know, the time that he was in I mean,

Ari Gronich

33:24

Yeah, exactly. He had to put those skills to test the NLP, the compassion, communication, the nonviolent communication, all of that together, in one, you know, and he had a lot of people who had thanked him, because they were about to do something, right. And so, I just, I want to say, I'm a devil's advocate, because there are people who have never heard of things before. They're experiencing everything new. You know, in the world of self-help, they may have been in a box of religion, they may have been on a box of you know, belief at a box of monetary, you know, constriction, whatever that is. And so, I played that devil's advocate, because I want to draw out the juice from you guys. You know, so that the people who are not used to that way of thinking, this is what I call critical thinking, common sense, but its minutia thinking it's the deep-down little pieces of information that make the biggest bits of difference. And to your point, you know, silence is a bully's best friend. That's, the saying that I've had for a long time. So, it's time to get loud. And that's for the systems that we find ourselves under, you know, these systems that are constrictive and, and really just optimized, their sub optimized so badly that they are almost broken like healthcare system, the results, I mean, if you just look at results, right. And so, within that system, to me, there's a simple solution. And that simple solution is a one-word solution that changes everything. And I think that it fits for all things, the incentive, and the incentives, that we give that one word, so let's say we took the incentives in health care. And we changed it from doing procedures, like you don't get paid any more for doing more stuff, you only get paid for the result. So, the more people that become healthy, the more money you get paid. At the end of the day, the people who are going to be getting paid the most are going to be doing the least amount of work, because they're going to have people healthy. You know, you get 10 people to quit smoking. Cool, you get a bonus, right? So, we incentivize differently. So, if we change the incentives from results, or to results from procedures, right, the entire system has to reorganize itself, in order to fit in with that incentive. Right. So, if the incentives are the answer to say to that, let's look at the incentives to what global peace Let's talk now is doing. Let's look at the incentives, you know, for that so that people can kind of get here's the incentive for us to do this. Anybody? 

Marc Anthony King

36:45

I completely agree. But those are those brilliant little practical psychology tools that we need more of in every area of life. I think so much of life, right revolves around these two words, leverage and incentives. If you've got those two things, game changes.

Ari Gronich

37:12

Absolutely.

Melody Garcia

37:13

So, you're asking a question Ari of what are the incentives to be joining global peace? Let's talk for an example. Right?

Ari Gronich

37:21

What is it that you're doing the incentive to do what you're doing? So, what is the incentives for you as a company. 

Melody Garcia

37:29

So, here's one thing that I will champion for myself. Because the company or the organization or non-profit, I should say NGO is such at a baby stage with massive explosive growth. I have the privilege, putting the right structures, policies and processes that actually impacts humanity at a scale that helps end suffering. Not all of it, but most of it. Now, a personal incentive for me is that I do have two sons. I mentioned this to you before, that at least they know that one day when I'm just a fleeting memory, their mom did something to make the world that they live in a better place for them. I hope that there's a kind soul another one of me out there that can share the same compassion to my kids long after I'm gone. Or their kids at that point, right? Because it becomes a generational blessing, for lack of a better term, a generational move forward, a generational element at this point. You know, I have a lot of accolades Mark is very well aware of that's one of them was the biggest one last year, which is the Topa Award, which basically recognizes one of the top 10 out of 4.1 million Filipino Americans living in the United States. I was one of those top 10 right out of 4.1 million. Outside that they did a decade tribute, which is to be the top 100 out of Gosh, built millions of Filipino Americans between the Philippines and the USA. I was there with massive names. Bruno Mars and the co-founder of Snapchat, you know, politicians, you name it, have reached that but without looking for accolades along the way. That's a legacy that I leave with my children. Right? It's better than saying, oh, I'm on a best, you know, I'm an Amazon bestseller which is literally algorithms that you can manipulate let's face the truth on this things, right? But to have attained that level, so I can leave it to them and say, I had the audacity to defy what everybody else said was impossible. That is my incentive, so that I can teach them the values that you are not the labels people will give you. You know, environment, culture, religion, expectations, you name it, because that's something your mom had to overcome herself. Right? Let me show you the tools that you're not the labels that people have given you or expectations. And that the value of who you are is found more than the dollar amount that may be in your bank account in the future or even in the present. Because by starting with those very critical values that are so not being taught now, Ari, whether it's an educational system or the homefront are the very values that's needed, to your point, to live, you know, to change the world. So that's the incentive for me with anything that has to do internally, personally with you know, with me, but more so having the platform that Mark and I does, and actually doing this on a global scale, a simple little thing like, Hey, how can I help starts the whole ball process, really, how can be a part of this?

Ari Gronich

Cool beans. Thank you. And Mark.

Marc Anthony King

0:08

I think that, you know, I haven't been blessed with children as of yet. So, I can't say that I want to leave a legacy for, for my children. But what I can say is that for every child who was ever negatively labelled, who was ever sexually abused, who was ever told that they would never amount to anything, whoever found themselves moments away from taking their own life. Who in every capacity was told that they were not worth it, and that they were less than my incentive is that my journey can serve as a legacy of what is possible, and how, whatever it is that you believe in, has the power to turn a travesty into a beautiful testimony. You know, my greatest incentive at the end of the day, and I'm unlike you, I'm not religious either. I haven't mentioned any religion. But my greatest source of joy and inspiration, and my greatest hope is that at the end of my life, my creator can look at me and said, You did good, you did everything I asked you to, you know, I want to leave this earth. with not a single bit of compassion, in me, not a single bit of love, not a single bit of, of wisdom, and not a single bit of caring. Because I left it all on the table. I left it all on the table, and hopefully, hopefully, somebody learned from my from my life and took those tools and took those experiences, and was able to replicate it and make somebody else's life better. That's my incentive.

Melody Garcia

2:14

And I'm gonna round it with this Ari, because Mark and I resonate with this quote, whether you believe in God or not, right. Religion or not, or whatever you want to call this. But there's a quote that I fell in love with many, many years ago that I live by. And this is not in the Bible. That's a whole different conversation. We can go on for three hours. But it's by Emma Bombeck that literally rounds up with marks and beautifully that goes, when I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a bit of single talent left and could say, I used everything you gave me.

Ari Gronich

2:51

Awesome sauce. Thank you guys so much for being here. Yeah, we'll have links and things in the description when we air the show. So, it'll all be down there. We're over there or over there, whichever way. Awesome. This is everywhere. This is everywhere. And so, thank you so much for being here and remembering everybody. We're creating a new tomorrow today. We're activating our vision for a better world now. What can you do? won't cost you a dime today, tomorrow the next day to create a new tomorrow for yourself today. Thanks for coming.

Jeff Le has had a career at the highest levels of public policy and politics at the state, federal and international levels. A recognized thought leader in political advocacy and representation, his analysis and opinion-writing have been featured in The New York Times, POLITICO Magazine, USA Today, The Washington Post, FOX News, The Hill, Roll Call, Forbes, and local and regional newspapers in 30 states.

=================

Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow. I am your host, Ari Gronich. And today I have with me, Jeff Le, and I've been looking forward to having this conversation for a long time. Jeff is a two-time tour guide in Afghanistan. He's an ultra-marathoner. He's in the political arena. And that's the thing that I really want to talk to him about. But this is a guy who's recognized as a thought leader, as in political advocacy. He's been featured on Politico magazine, New York Times, USA Today, Washington Post, I mean, Fox News, all kinds of stuff. But Jeff, I'm gonna let you tell a little bit more about yourself. And where it is that, you know, you feel like your history has met your present, and is like pushing your future forward.

Jeff Le

2:36

Thanks for having me. Ari. Flattery will get you everywhere. So, thank you for that very warm introduction. You know, when I talk about my life, I really must take time to talk about my parents, first and foremost, not just because they love each other very much, and here I am. But also, because, you know, it's their bravery and passion that allows me to be an American today. Right. So, they were Vietnamese refugees after the fall of Saigon. 46 years ago. 

3:25

Yeah, they were refugees in, you know, Thailand and the Philippines and escaped Vietnam and communism on a 32-foot raft. So, you know, when they made it to the United States in 1981, after six years, a year later, I was born. And that came with great rights, but also responsibilities. And growing up in Southern California. My parents had a gardening company. And it's important to highlight because it was my first job. My first job at eight years old was being the gardener's kid, and mowing lawns in the weekends. I learned two things about this. Number one, manual labor sucks. And education is really important, two people treat you based on what they think of you based on what you do. And so, understanding that we're only equal in concept, but maybe not in reality is an important lesson learn at a young age. I say all that because a lot of my professional and personal life was driven on this understanding. And I would break my life chapter into three chapters, and we can talk about each of them. Yeah, the first was a chapter in the international affairs arena, right? I got to work and travel and 85 countries around the world. There was so much to see and do, including, you know, what you referenced was, you know, my time in Afghanistan, you know, working in the international development, economic space, but also working in the human rights and advocacy, is base. And obviously, recent events in Afghanistan, are quite tragic and horrible. We'll talk about that. After that experience, it made me ask for mentally, what was I doing for the country back home? And so, the second chapter of my life was in politics, but you know, really with a stronger emphasis in state and local politics. I got to work for the governor of California specifically for five years. Jerry, yes, great way for Jerry Brown, Jerry Brown, the governor of California, so that the current governor of California, the previous governor of California, and which, for me was fascinating, because when Jerry Brown was governor, California, in the 70s, and early 80s, my parents arrived here. So it was so fascinating that their son could be advising the governor of California, the same governor, who was governor when they landed. So, think about that, from that, you know, the world is an interesting circle. And I was really proud of the work that I got to do in California, as you know, I mean, California, you know, covers some really interesting issues and technology and innovation.

Ari Gronich

5:53

California is crazy state.

Jeff Le

5:55

There's a lot of stuff to talk about, right? Fires, floods, you know, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, I mean, your amens, I mean, there's so much stuff that comes from there. And also what's not talked about the largest veteran community in the country, and 30 military installations that are sort of the backbone for our efforts in the Pacific, not talked about, but it's very important. Think about not just from a national security perspective, but also from a local economy perspective, having those installations there, those work I really got to work in really proud of. And now in this phase, I work in technology. And I'm really focused right now on housing, and really focused on reducing barriers for people to get to affordable safe housing, at a time where you have potentially millions of people being evicted, through no fault of their own. So, you know, for me, my goals have really been focused on trying to support empower the most marginalized at a time where the haves and have nots grow, what can we be doing to be smart and thoughtful about this, and not throw the baby with the bath wash.

Ari Gronich

7:09

Absolutely. So let's start to unpack some of this stuff a little bit. We're gonna go back, I actually I had a girlfriend. Long time ago, she had a tattoo on her butt that looked like a shipping label. It's said made in Vietnam. She had been a refugee who had escaped on a boat, like a rowboat, almost to Thailand. And so I find that interesting, because I know what it's like what it was like for her parents, who did the escaping, you know, and all of that what they faced and possibilities that they faced in order to escape a place. And where I'm going to draw the parallel in a minute is not necessarily to the Vietnam, but it's to Afghanistan, and all the refugees that are being forced, you know, to leave their home. And so, we'll draw that parallel as well. But what I want to get to at the first is, is that eight-year-old boy, who is being aware of the fact that your equality is not necessarily equal in the eyes of the people. So, I want to just kind of unpack this this one little bit for a second, let's talk about equality. And if there should even be anything called equality, and if so, what would it look like to you? So, let's just. 

Jeff Le

8:49

Yeah, it's funny. So, under the law, there is supposed to be equality, right? In society, that's certainly not necessarily the case. There is something very important which is equity. Equity is important. Yes. Equanimity too. Those two concepts are very important. And so, I believe in equality of, there's an equality of opportunity and potential. Outcomes are different. Outcomes or outcomes. But we also must acknowledge that, there are some folks that are born on third base. There are some folks that are born on first base, and there are some folks that are selling hotdogs in the stands. It's it is different. And so, where you start does affect how you play the game. Right? Like if you're playing Monopoly and you got Boardwalk and Park Place to Start, it probably affects the way you probably can maneuverer. And I can tell you that my you know, my parents coming to the United States with nothing, I can't say we had Boardwalk and Park Place. I think we were just happy to have it. Have a token on the board. Right, we're happy to be here. And very much at least in an Asian American Pacific Islander angle, particularly Vietnamese American one, there's one very much filled with gratitude, a gratitude that we get to be here and that we get to chase, the thing that you and I have talked about, which is the American dream. The American Dream, though, isn't the dream for your parents, the American Dream is the possibilities for your children. That's what that is. Because, you know, very few, you know, these refugees you cited and Afghanistan, they're here are like being resettled. They are not going to be the direct beneficiaries of the American experience and the opportunities here; their kids will be. That is the American dream. The parents will have to live with the trauma of what they lost and what they'll never get back. And I know we discussed like, oh, how lucky these Afghans are to make it. The survivor's guilt. That's real. And they're separated from their family, their friends, their loved ones, everything they've ever known. So, they're always going to be knothole. So, I think there's this notion when we talk in society about like, oh, these refugees are taking advantage of things. Oh, they're just trying to find a way to, you know, further themselves. No, it's a last resort. It is a last resort. I mean, you think about what makes you happy? It's your community. It's the people around you. It's the sense that you're living in your skin.

Ari Gronich

11:27

You know, it’s funny to me, as you're talking, I had a thought, right? How many people do I know that I grew up with? Who have never left? The place that we grew up. Quite a few. And how difficult it is for somebody, just to willingly choose to go move somewhere, even just out of city. Not just out of state but out of city. You know, how many people do I know that have lived on the same block. You know, as their parents lived, and their grandparents lived the same block the same neighbourhoods. And when I hear somebody say, you know, these people are, they're being forced. What I want to see happen, right. When I hear you say, they'll never be whole, what I want to see happen is block parties. I want us to be, you know, the 50s, again, when we welcomed the world, right, onto our blocks into block parties, and we actually understand and listen and question like, What was that experience that you went through so that people can become whole?

Jeff Le

12:52

Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. I think this first off, I mean, if you look at the founding of America, America is a nation of immigrants and refugees, by the way, seeking refuge. In the only scenario of options last, right, if you look at the history, right? We focus so much on the Mayflower. There are many other May flowers for many other generations that we never talked about. It's not as luxurious, right? But the reality is that you, we have a culture that has a connection to cultures of many. And part of our strength, if you talk about from innovation, what makes America so powerful, is that we have these viewpoints, perspective skills and abilities from all around the world that come here, the best of the best. And then they use those talents and skills to create things that change the world. That creates that new tomorrow. Right? If you look at, you know, for example, let's just talk about, let's say the vaccine, for example, one of the things that people don't talk about who worked on the science of these vaccines, right? The research and development are on the backs of immigrants, doing the lab and bench science. So, you know, America benefits from those talents. And to your point, we have to recognize, it takes a whole of society to put people in the best position to succeed. They deserve to have an at bats, whether they strike out whether they get a single, I couldn't tell you.

Ari Gronich

14:23

So, hold on a second. Let's again, I'm I like to unpack some of this. I don't agree. With the premise that all people should have an equal starting ground. Right. And say that because I'm going to have a different brain than you have different set of skills than you. I'm going to have abilities that you will never have. You will have abilities that I will never have. And I disagree with the philosophy of any possibility of starting from an even ground. Now, here's, here's to say, if I had $100 million, okay, my brain would know who I need to put that with. So that I could get things moving forward, somebody else's brain that's given $100 million is going to spend it on junk that's not going to move anybody forward or anything forward, another person is going to spend that 100 million totally different, right? They're going to actually like maybe go to classes and learn and gain a skill and do good in the world. So, money, or resources or family, like, you might have a much larger family of resources than I have, my family might have more money. So, I don't believe that there's ever going to be a time possible in which we have an equal starting point or equanimity in relationships, it have equanimity and other things.

Jeff Le

16:09

Well, I think historically, that's right. I mean, again, like we talked about my family's history in the United States is 39 years. Right. So, the starting point is different versus, you know, someone that's been here since their family has been here since 1840s. Whether we can agree that's different, and totally agree that there's different skills and abilities. I think it's the case of how do we best put people in positions, you know, to fulfil their talents and potential? I agree with you. Not everyone is gonna be a starting pitcher. Not everyone is going to be even playing that sport. I totally agree. But I do think on the services part, like the thing you talked about for society, right? Having that openness to learn to understand that benefits everybody, and that benefits a stronger country as a whole.

Ari Gronich

17:01

Yeah. But also. I guess what I want to get to is, can we agree on a solution, right? That starts us from a place of maybe not equanimity. But at least not fight or flight. Right. So having somebody not necessarily have to worry about survival skills, survival instincts, surviving in general. And that's where I believe that if we could get away from the nervous system being triggered into this fight or flight response constantly, right? Meaning, we give people a way to have shelter, have clothes, have food, have the things that are necessary to sustain a life. That starting point, at least, is a starting point that will allow people to move in a quicker fashion, right? But to your point, at eight years old, you started a job. At seven years old, I started a job. Right. Mine was paper boy, and we did lawn mowing for like five bucks a lawn. Five bucks a lawn, I think back then. It was like three bucks a lawn. Right. And so, here's the other part of that. So, I'm going to be my own devil's advocate on this. The struggle is what made you who you are, right? That having to work that early, the being forced into an a non-equal position, right. Whereas somebody who's wealthy, whose kids are wealthy, they don't have to do anything, they don't have to learn, they don't have to think they don't have to, and they'll lose anything that they're given pretty darn quickly. So, there's, the dichotomy in my in my head, and we give people an equal footing ground as far as like survival. And will that have an opposite effect of taking the struggle away that makes people really forged in strong?

Jeff Le

19:32

Yeah, so I think you know, if you think of that, you know that Maslow's hierarchy, right. So, if you reduce the existential crises, then it can allow people to forge and foster in the other ways. I think there's three factors I think about first is, you know, just personality, right. I think there's the things that are born innately like you were talking about earlier. Alright, that is a factor. The second one, I think, is really helpful is exposure to other people? So, I mean, if you think about, you know, everyone remembers their third-grade teacher, right? Like there are people that influenced your life in a unique way. Even if it doesn't seem like it's going to be changing your life, those people are really important that you can't really control for right is the quality of your teacher or the quality of, you know, important figures in your life? The third is luck. And that, I think, to the point you, I think you imply it, I think that's fair. We live in a society that tells us that if you work hard to do these things, and you're successful, and that, alternatively, if you don't work hard, you will fail, and that's on you. So, when we see people fail, we just assume they didn't work hard enough. That might not necessarily be true. So, it's like that. That's an interesting premise here on, you know, this path dependency of like this dichotomy of if you do this, you do this, if you do this, this happens.

Ari Gronich

20:56

See, I don't I don't believe that hard work means anything. Right. I've seen housekeepers who, I mean, like, go 10 hours, 12 hours a day, they work their butts off, and they're making, you know, five bucks an hour, so to speak. 10 bucks, whatever the minimum nowadays. And I see CEOs who do absolutely nothing all day, right? Who make massive amounts of money. So, I don't believe that it's equal hard work for outcome, right? It's what you create as value. It's how much value you're providing to the world. Right? So, the value you provide to the world is gonna depend on your personality, as you said, it's going to depend on your skill set your, you know, your history, but all but mostly your mindset skill set, isn't that correct? 

Jeff Le

21:57

It is and again, also, the degree of understanding systems. So, this is the other part like we were talking about, from, you know, the welcoming, I view, the welcoming is also an education on, how do you navigate? I think about my parents in the first two years, they were trying to figure out the DMV. I think everyone struggles, the DMV in some way. But imagine, you've come from this conflict, and you've been in transit. And now you're here and you have some sort of social network or you're working through, but then they're like, Oh, you have to get driver's license. Like, what is that? How does that work? So, there's also like, the quicker one can pick up the system. And as we talked about, I think really gifted creatives in this space, we'll learn the system, maximize what that looks like, and then break it. Right. I think that's where it gets really interesting. When you're starting in a position of the basics, you're not talking about breaking systems just yet, right? So, I think anything you can do to, again, expedite the ability to get people administratively in the points you talked about with this, you know, this hierarchy. That is helpful, because it will help for people's transition. to not feel like they don't belong here. Or at least you pretend you belong here.

Ari Gronich

23:22

So, belong here, an interesting phrase. So, I'm a firm believer that I should have the free ability to travel about the universe as I see fit. Right? I don't think I should have to have a passport. I don't think that there should be borders of any kind. I don't, you know, let me play. I'm gonna play this out. Like, yeah, well, your goal on here, I don't think there should be any limits. To me traveling around the globe. I look on a world view of Earth from space. And there aren't any of those, you know, barriers or lines that we've put onto the globe. Yes, you can see the Great Wall, but that still doesn't delineate the country, it only delineates one place. But the point is that this is earth, right? We all belong. If we live, if we exist, we belong on this earth. And so, stopping people from traveling, creating all these borders, what does that do psychologically? To somebody’s mind, right? I have a friend in London right now. And he had to get permission from the government to fly out of London to come to the US because of COVID right otherwise There would be a $7,000. Fine. Okay, in order to travel around the country around the globe around whatever, you had to get permission. I think that that's wrong. You've been to 85 countries. Right? You've travelled the world. You have seen, I'm sure more amazing things than 99% of all people. Because you've been to more places that, you know, most people have, like, like we said before, never lost their block, never got off their block, let alone travelled 85 countries. So, what do you think of belonging to the universe belonging to Earth, right, belonging in general? And how this whole issue can get alleviated? If we stop the nationalism thought?

Jeff Le

25:56

Yeah, yeah, um, I want to react really quickly about some insights. When you travel to different countries, I have two universal principles. And then we'll talk about the nationalism question that you raised. The first is in the travels, I got to experience and see with all the different people. Principle number one that I found is that regardless, where I went, who I met, how I met, what I saw, the people who had the least always gave the most, that's irrespective of nationality, irrespective of label, gender, you name it, I thought it was incredibly powerful. And from a humanist perspective, like just very inspiring, especially in places of the most hardship, I found people to be absolutely the most resilient, the most resistance to negativity, but also willing to sacrifice in a way that was in almost inhuman in some ways. Second principle, the more I travel, the more I miss home. And there's something about home that is important. And I struggled to understand what was it about home that it was, was it? Was it air conditioning? Was it my cereal in the morning? Was it the ease of driving on the right side of the road? What was it? And what I concluded was, it was a sense, where I didn't have to constantly translate in my head, a situation or scenario. And I think when you're what you're talking about, from a big picture perspective. When you talk about these barriers, or borders or labels, you're talking about haves and have nots. And you're talking about people that are deemed X and people that are deemed Y. And it's never done in a way that's done with rigor, right? It's just a label, right? It's based on what you talked about. It's based on nationality or passport, or it's based on a classification. It's not based on the individual, right, with rare exception, like your friend is a rare exception to get that exemption, for example, largely based by Guile in relationships. 

Ari Gronich

28:07

But he’s spoken in front of parliament in the United Nations. So, he's been a guest on this show. I mean, that will get him. Well, we'll get him anything, Jeff.

Jeff Le

28:18

Besides a cosmic karma. But to your point, though, you know, I do think the nativism part is dangerous, because it irrationally puts people into intellectually lazy buckets. That is dangerous from not just from an everyday life perspective, but from a policymaking perspective. Right. And, you know, as you know, that the government, there might be well intended actions or options. But implementation is always the question. And then there's always exceptions to the rule. That is the question. And so, it can be really hard to right size solutions for the most people possible. Understanding that is far from perfect. But fundamentally, one of the issues that I see here is the policy makers that use rhetoric to score political points, mainly campaign dollars, to then advance their own personal interest without actually doing good for the others around them. That is, and maybe that's human nature. I don't know, we can debate that. I would argue it's not because I've seen the most giving people on planet Earth. So, it's hard. It's hard to see the difference. But unfortunately, in the system, we're in Ari. It's very much driven on. There's only so much pie, and I'm going to claim the pie for my people versus some of us believe that. Actually, you can go in the kitchen and make pie and we'd all be better off. So, it's an interesting debate.

Ari Gronich

29:55

Yeah, there's plenty of pie. I always say to somebody who thinks that there's a lack of anything in the universe. Say count handful of sand grain, just a handful. Just count them. See if you can, if you can't, you probably don't have a lack in the world, right? How about counting the hairs on your head? Can you count how many hairs are on your head or pores or on your skin? Right? We don't have a lack of for anything. In fact, we have an abundance of so much. Part of what I feel is like going to a restaurant where there's a menu, that is five pages versus a one page menu, right? One causes anxiety. The other cause, you know, creates ease. I only have these choices. Yeah, this is all that I can do. Right. Whereas the universe right now, is the smorgasbord, we have this thing called the internet that allows you to have a buffet of all you can eat of your own topic, right? And so like, for me, I'm the kind of person who gets a little piece of everybody's, right. And I want a little I want to try a little bit of everybody. So, I don't get stuck in my own thoughts. 

Jeff Le

31:17

Well, also you don't get stuffed either. Right. So, you get to enjoy the taste without having to deal with that coma after so that's a smart strategy.

Ari Gronich

31:25

Right. But, that's how I like my people. You know, diverse. That's how I like my life is to have diversity to have levels. 

Jeff Le

31:41

Go outside to see different and I would also say difference. Right. Because I think one of the killers that we were talking about with nativism, is people just all go in their corners, right? And that creates groupthink. And groupthink is a killer. That's the thing that we need to be breaking. And I'm really, I really admire the way you sort of look at life in that you want to be exposed to as many things as possible. Not as little. 

Ari Gronich

32:06

Cancel Culture sucks. Let's just get it out. Like anybody who's cancelling anybody. You should be ashamed of yourself. Really, like down and dirty. You should be ashamed of yourself, cancelling people cancelling things that you have no idea about who they are, you never asked them a deep question, or found out why and you're cancelling them. I find it disgusting. It's actually like, I find that that whole concept, completely disgusting. Anybody who's an American like it's going against the Constitution, which is free speech, the idea of free speech, right? So, let's just like I'm just getting that out of my system. At the onset, right? Cancel culture sucks. So that being said, what's the solution? So, I like solutions. I'm all about solutions. These days, we've talked a lot about problems. Yeah. I want to get to some solutions with you. Okay. So, let's go to Afghanistan, for instance, and what's going on there. You had two tours. And you kind of have an insider's perspective. So, let's get perspective on that location.

Jeff Le

33:27

Yeah. I mean, obviously, Afghanistan has been in the news. What's fascinating about Afghanistan, is it's one of the most complex histories on planet Earth. I mean, just where it's located in the world is one of the busier more complex neighbourhoods, you can you just take a look around the neighbourhoods, it's busy. And what I learned from the years I was there, that one, one really important lesson, which is super helpful for both empathy, but also humility, is the longer you're in a place, the less you understand. And I think that's the case in many countries in many parts of the world.

Ari Gronich

34:04

Unpack that. Explain that.

Jeff Le

34:05

So, there's layers of complexity. And let's say, you know, you want to understand the United States. So, you stay here for a semester, or you stay here for a couple weeks. All right, you have a good handle. You stay here five years, what did you really learn? Oh, my goodness, there is way more to unpack than one thought. That's very much the case in a foreign country that is in a conflict, an active conflict zone, and you're trying to figure out, how do we promote better relations? How do we, you know, ensure more prosperity and economic development? How do we build things? And also, more importantly, how do we get rid of the bad guys? Which by the way, there's that construct of good guys bad guys, which we can talk about that. The great part about that experience two things one, I got to be outside of the Capital for lots of parts of it. And that's helpful because the country isn't just The State Capital or the nation’s capital, just like if you look at the United States right now, you know, there's Washington and there's everything else. Everything else is quite different than Washington very much as hasten Kabul and everywhere else and understanding that the local differences matter. But more importantly, the local sensitivities, the local people, local constructs are different. That helps you get a sense of what's possible. And the only way I could do anything Ari was with hiring local people who were invested in trying to promote a better

Ari Gronich

35:33

Hold on one second, I'm gonna pause you. 

Ari Gronich

35:57

Jeff, I'll be right back. I just got to do something real quick. 

Jeff Le

Yeah, of course.

Ari Gronich

36:40

Sorry about that, my ex is coming to pick up stuff for my son.

Jeff Le

36:52

Understand, understand. That's complexity.

Ari Gronich

36:56

Yes. All right. So where were we?

Jeff Le

37:01

We were talking about FSM. Yeah. I guess, to say, if you want to be successful, in a country, like that, you need to have local buy in. And you need to have local staff who are committed to building a very different country. That's not an easy sell. But when you do have folks who are interested in stronger prosperity or having closer Western alignments of the world, when they're all in, you're all in, here's the thing. They make a choice. That choice isn't just a job decision. That's a life and death decision. That's the difference Ari. So, the choose to support the Americans, like just how my parents supported the Americans. If you don't win, you lose. And that's what unfortunately, has been the case here in the last six weeks following the withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan. And I think we can agree 20 years is a very long time. And we can agree that 20 years, what did that give us? Those are fair, valid, thoughtful, important questions that we should and absolutely need to learn from. But speaking at a human level, knowing that the vast majority of my local staff, people that made sure I was okay, made sure our troops were okay. That they're not going to be okay, now. That is crushing to me. Because they're the unlucky ones, the ones that won't make it to United States, and 46 years ago, my parents were the Afghans. And so, I feel a tremendous sense of both heartbreak, guilt, and shame, knowing that we couldn't do everything we really could do. You'll hear Ari, people say that, oh, we did the best we could. It could have been way worse, you know, right. And listen, I would love to go down the multiverse to determine the other scenarios I'd love to. But the reality is in the universe you and I live in today. There are family members of my former staff that have already been killed, or people are hiding in a hole in the ground or deciding which land border are they going to cross over? That's the questions right now. And that’s a difficult thing to accept for me. Putting aside the strategic questions, which we can talk about, of course, that's that that is well deserving, but just on a human level. It's something I haven't been able to shake. I don't sleep very well, to be honest with you. I tried to do the best I could and continue to try to support visa applications, whatever the case might be through our process, which is a 14-step process. And it's hard to know that even the greatest most powerful country in the history of the world, still can't get the stuff, right.

Ari Gronich

0:02

So, I'm gonna unpack a little bit because the humanity part, right, so let's just kind of talk about that in a way, that is more of a strategic thing. Right? So, we're in a country 20 years.

What were we doing there? And what should we have been doing there? Right? Those are the two questions that I asked like, what were you doing now? And what could we have been doing differently? Or better or whatever? Because the way I see it, and I say it on the show all the time is we made this shit up, we could do better. So, there's not a single thing on the planet that we've created as humans, that can't be improved upon or optimized more. So, I try to take out the judgment. Just put in. Okay, what are the facts? No, what did we do? And what should we have been doing to be more optimized? And then the last question on that is, people who are extremists? Are they ever going to not be extremists? And if so, what are the things that we're doing? To cause them to not be extreme?

Jeff Le

1:16

Hmm, yeah. The $64,000 question, among other things, actually, we'll call it $2 trillion, because that's how much it costs $2 trillion question. So, the first question of what were we doing there? I mean, the whole point of being there was to ensure that terrorists or extremism would not be able to attack the United States, homeland, and soil, that was the original cause and effect, right, 20th anniversary of 911 just happened, the whole idea is we were going to go to these places of safe harbour or against the bad guys, we're gonna kill all of them. And then they'll never mess with us again. That was the idea. So that's like phase one, right? Well, here's the thing. Phase two became, oh, well, okay, that's done now what? And you had two challenges. This, there was sort of a school of thought of, oh, we should build democratic institutions and shared economic values and alignments. In a place where you have no idea of understanding. That's a challenge. And then the second piece of that was, oh, by the way, we'll do this, we'll review it every year. So, it's not 20-year war, it's 21 year worse. That's how I viewed it. And guess what, when you have the handoff from one to another, it takes time to it's like Groundhog Day, right. And that's what unfortunately happened. And regardless of what the troop numbers were, or the casualties or the strategic value of x or y, it just did not change the fact that there was not a clear NorthStar of how we were going to do what we're going to do. And what was success. So, the second point, right, what can we've done better? What is success? Number one defining success, so you can meet success and move on, fundamentally did not happen. And that is shocking, because you would think the politicians would understand

Ari Gronich

3:09

So there was no end goal.

Jeff Le

3:12

Not sighted with consensus.

Ari Gronich

3:16

Okay, no analytic that we could measure that says that is success. Now it doesn't seem like military intelligence to me.

Jeff Le

3:26

No, I mean, listen, if success have superiority in the air on the ground, we're going to do that. That's not the issue. The issue is after all the bombs and toys that is the issue. Listen no one's gonna doubt American military superiority?

Ari Gronich

3:42

Oh, what I'm saying there was no target. There was no goal, you're shooting a gun at nothing.

Jeff Le

3:48

How do you shoot and this is the challenge. How do you shoot a gun at ideas? How do you shoot a gun at better governance? Right. This is a fundamental challenge that we're talking about, about the Maslow's hierarchy earlier. You know, what people really wanted. They wanted things to function. And the Afghan government though, the United States and Western Allies were supporting, we're not doing the basics. Some of that is incompetence. Some of that is massive corruption. Some of that is a lack of capacity. Some of it was lack of will. All of those things are a recipe for people saying, you know, what, maybe these Taliban people aren't so bad. So, the point you brought up very thoughtfully. Extremism. So, is it extremism or just wanting the basics? What is it and there are some folks like, you know, the horrible people that murdered our troops in the evacuation. Those folks are definitely there's nothing you can give them or sell them. Right. That's, that's a that's a very different premise. That's, unfortunately something that usually ends with a bullet. But for the vast majority Have the locals and communities even to help most of Taliban forces are probably thinking, You know what, I just want to have a place where I can raise my family, I can have money come in, and I can do the basics. And that basis would be ensuring that my kids a better life than me, kind of sounds like, you know, what my parents were thinking about when they came here. So this inability to deliver was going to be the downfall. And in 20 years, they couldn't deliver, therefore, we couldn't deliver. And without any metric for success, we were destined for failure. That's what happened. 

Ari Gronich

5:37

Okay. So, I don't know that I agree that people just want to survive and have the basics, like the Taliban, for instance. Right? If they were to do absolutely nothing right now. Not hurt anybody, not assume their control. They would probably have the basics. The thing people want control, and that control gives them a sense of safety. And that sense of safety, just like any gang on any block in South Central, or, you know, or anywhere else, Chicago doesn't matter. Any gang, any mob, any mafia, any family of people that choose a certain way of living to be a violent way of living. It's not just about survival. It's, it's about control.

Jeff Le

6:36

Well, I will premise and say this, that it's really important to distinguish the Taliban is not a monolith. So, when you say the Taliban, I mean, that's like, it's a lot of different groups, right? It's more of a federation, that might be a better way to describe them. And the point you raised about power and control. Yeah, that's at the top. That's at the top. If you're talking rank and file, it's a little different. You know, you hear stories of Taliban folks asking about, you know, what it's like in Australia. You know, it's a very interesting dynamic, right? They've been fighting for 20 years. That's all they know. And they're talking about, hey, what, you know, do you didn't even go to Australia? is a fascinating question. But to your point, yes. It gets back to who's in power? And then the accumulation of power and resources? Yes. But if we're talking the everyday person who is, you know, just trying to figure things out, I think it's a little different. But.

Ari Gronich

7:40

But so then we get to my big premise is silence is a bully's best friend. So, we got to get loud, right. So, what it sounds like, if I break it down to the smallest point, is it sounds like the bully in the in the school yard? Right? Whether the bully in the schoolyard wants control over the kids for lunch money? Or the Taliban or the Federation? One’s control over its people? Yep. So, it creates a dialogue that incites its people, right. It still is a bully. So, the question that I have is, why do we let the bullies win?

Jeff Le

8:35

We let the bullies win, because we are convinced that there's no other way or option? Right? To your point, to because if you're just looking at the numbers, the majority, it's the silent majority. Right. And these places, why don't they just overthrow them? Right. I think that's the question.

Ari Gronich

8:52

That's, really the question is, why do we allow that to happen?

Jeff Le

8:59

Well, it's similar to I think, what I see with bystanders in general, right? So, you see something horrible happen, and the people just stand around, right? Let's say there's a car accident, not always, but I'll give you an example. Two weeks ago, I was walking back from a work meeting, and someone had a really bad car accident. And so, I call 911. You know, what's crazy? Is no one else thought to do that. There are about 20 people. And these are all folks have a variety of lobbyists in Washington DC, you have to assume people have phones and this sort of stuff, right? Why is that somebody doesn't do something? And so, it's a really interesting question of like, you know, from an actor or a decision maker perspective, like what compels people to go outside of their bubble, outside of their world to something much bigger, to potentially put themselves to exposure or risk right. And the game theory of it in theory is that if everybody does it, they're in a better position. Right, and in theory, in this case, we can get help for someone who was in a bad car accident.

Ari Gronich

10:07

Yeah, you got 30 kids, or you got 30 kids in a class. One is a bully. So, 29 of them says, Hey, we're not going to be bullied by you. You can be our friend, but we're not going to be bullied by you. Defuse the situation, right?

Jeff Le

10:23

Yeah, some of that, too, is a question of, you know, who's really the boss here. And if you have conditions where the teacher is not around, maybe that is more likely to happen. So, I mean, using your schoolyard analogy.

Ari Gronich

10:37

Right, but in the schoolyard analogy, right, you got the principal and the teachers, right, that those are the bureaucracies. It's like to me, it's like Hamas, and the Palestinian government and the PLO, right. They're all different organizations, but it's like the superintendent, the district teacher, and.

Jeff Le

10:58

and the school board or the school board, and

Ari Gronich

11:01

All those people are the people who are fighting, and all these students are the people who are getting the grunt of the fighting, they're getting screwed because of these people. right. So that's where I go, like, how do we get and just in general in society. How do we get people? And you know, you’re part of the Homeland Security, I'm sure been part of some peace talks of some sort. How do we get people to stop going against their own self-interest? And to rise up and say, Hey, we could do peace, there's enough of us to make it peaceful. You don't want to be peaceful? But

Jeff Le

11:46

Yeah, the first thing I would say is, so many of us need the validation to do so. It's really interesting. Like, if someone told you, hey, Ari, I need you to do this for all of us. I think you would do it. If you sort of sat and thought about and said, you know, what, it all over interest. But in these sorts of situations where there's not a natural leader, it's very hard. And so, it gets back to like this principle of how do you become a better bystander, which then allows you to act? How do you act? And I want to think that you and I in that situation, we will look around, say, Hey, we're gonna take the bull by the horns, we're gonna do this. But it's not always the case. And in the Afghanistan context, there's long standing history, long, long, thin history of previous conflicts, battles won and lost. But usually, a history that says, hey, the writings on the wall. Let's acquiesce now. So, we can all live to fight another day. That is a long-standing history as well. So, there are some of these like cultural historical forces that are at play here. So that's maybe something beyond the school yard because I guess it's based on where the school yard is.

Ari Gronich

12:57

Right? I love having the discussion about you know, what human nature is? Because I don't think it changes between country to country or civilization to civilization as much as we think it does. I think cultural, Yeah, we have certain cultural differences on how much we've technologically grown in our civilization, right? So, US has the landmass, to create lots of web manufacturing, and, you know, things like that. So, we have a lot of technology that we've created, because our landmass has allowed that. A lot of other countries haven't built those. So, they're still living in a more tribal, you know, situation.

Jeff Le

13:45

Well, I would say, too, I mean, if you're talking about geography, right, it helps to have two oceans, you have two oceans, you're probably thinking about things differently from a security perspective, right. So that's, that's fair. That's fair.

Ari Gronich

13:57

So, we're gonna go into some other topics. But hold on one second. All right, so Asian hates, You and I talked about this a little bit. I'm gonna break it out into just hate in general, because I kind of feel like, doesn't matter if you're Irish, Jewish, Black, Latino, Asian, right. There's always somebody who's hating on somebody. And usually, it's a lot of people hating on one person or one group of people. But it doesn't really matter which group depends on where you live. It's everywhere. When I was in Greece, it was the Albanians, you know, Albanians are coming in and taking our jobs. Okay, so everybody's got their Mexicans, so to speak, the people that they consider to be entering and taking So let's talk about the hate and lack. 

Jeff Le

15:04

Yeah, I mean, if we've talked about hate broadly, this is actually a great starting point. The FBI recently released their hate crime report. Last year was the highest year of reported hate crime in 12 years. And that's among all groups. But it was interesting because there's a significant outlier with Asian Americans. So, if you're talking about, like, who's the latest to get picked on Asian Americans, but it's not to say that other groups aren't being picked on, it's not to say that Asians have never been picked on and are suddenly being noticed. Right. But it was very starkly if you if you look at data and evidence, there was a stark outlier. And that was certainly in Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders throughout the country, even in a place and people will say, well, you know, maybe that's just, you know, places that aren't as sensitive to groups. Well, in California, which is a pretty diverse place, hate crime was up over 100%, year over year. So, this is a place where 40 million people from pretty much everywhere, this is majority minority, the longest place where you have Asian Americans, the longest history of Asian Americans in the US, right? Chinese Japanese came here in the 19th century, railroads, economy, that sort of thing. So really close, long-standing histories of different groups and they had it pretty bad during that time. So, I think big picture, something was happening. It certainly didn't help that there is rhetoric that said that viruses came from certain places that probably didn't help. And, you know, I'd like to think that words don't matter. But they, they do. Because words are the thing you can't kill, like we talked about, right? You can't like point a gun to an idea. If there's an idea that says this group is the reason for your detriment, or your discomfort, and that's why you have to wear a mask. I think it's very complex. And as we just talked about there, there's always underlying things. Long standing past, right. And those fissures, with enough pressure become chasms. And this was a trend we saw across country, it certainly happened to me. It's not, you know, when acts of hate happened to me in the last 18 months, it wasn't new. It was just more blatant, right? It used to be like, Hey, your English is really good. Or, Hey, can you like with your eyes with the shape? Can you see like, do you see better on the science? Or like, Hey, do you eat dog? It's that sort of stuff, where it's like, I can laugh it off, right? A recent story I'll give you that happened to me. Two guys went up to me and we're like, hey, a Buddha. You know, can we rub your belly for good luck? And the thing is, Ari this is not the first time I've been asked, so I haven't answer

Ari Gronich

17:57

Budda is my nickname it has been since I was nine years old 

Jeff Le

18:01

Well, you and I share that.

Ari Gronich

18:04

I got these these big ear lobes.

Jeff Le

18:05

Yeah, me too. Me too. 

Ari Gronich

18:08

I've been told that there Budda ear lobes.

Jeff Le

18:11

I think they're lovely. I love your ear lobes. So, but you know, I have a response to this answer. And that is, Listen, I'm not a genie. So, if you rub my belly, you don't get any wishes. And as an Asian American, you're taught your entire life to defuse tension to blend in quickly. Because the alternative is, the communist government will kill you. So, you know, you're you come from a position of gratitude, right? You're happy to be here, you're just happy to be here. You just want to live your life. But you live in your life, having to sort of know the cost of doing business and existing here is dealing with that stuff. Right. Having people ask you about strange things from time to time, right, including what does a dog taste like? So, you know, that's something as early as age nine, age 10. 

Ari Gronich

18:59

Yeah, I had I had similar being Jewish, you know, all kinds of things. I was told that I killed I personally killed Jesus and I shouldn't be alive. Like, literally, my entire life was, you know, grew up being told, you're Jewish, you're your Jesus killer. You know, and then I started practicing Buddhism and now I'm a Jewish Buddhist that that was even worse.

Jeff Le

19:23

Well, yeah, because they don't know how to box you then.

Ari Gronich

19:25

Right? And then I started studying the Quran. I mean, I was 7,8,9 10 years old, 12 years old, and I'm studying these religions druidism, paganism and studying all this stuff. And I get labelled. So, I understand. Let's go back Asian American concentration camps, so to speak. We had those in our country tournament.

Jeff Le

19:45

Yeah. Ari, when we had internment, in the US. 

Ari Gronich

19:49

Right, we built you guys built the railway system in the early 1900s, late 1800s. That that allowed for us to build to travel the world, right? Around the country. 

Jeff Le

20:02

And Ari to your point on the internment camps during World War II. Did you see any? Did you hear of any Italians or German Americans? 

Ari Gronich

20:10

No.

Jeff Le

20:11

Yeah. So, I mean, the difference does matter.

Ari Gronich

20:16

Right. Difference absolutely matters.

Jeff Le

20:21

No good.

Ari Gronich

20:24

I'm like holding up the mic. This is how we do it

Jeff Le

20:28

Hey, you're getting your reps in.

Ari Gronich

20:36

Anyway, I'm just gonna hold this for the rest of the time because it's come apart.

Jeff Le

20:43

Yeah, I know. Sounds like you need. It's time for new mic.

Ari Gronich

20:46

So, hate in general. And, you know, but part of what I wanted to talk about with regards to Asian hate, specifically, and foreign hate specifically, is the concept of human trafficking. Okay, part of Homeland Security. So, you have a little bit more inside track down. Human trafficking. But this seems to be an issue of color, so to speak. I don't really hear too much, except for maybe Russian, Ukrainian. in whiter countries. But it also seems to be something that is perpetuated by the people who live there not necessarily the outsider, white ghost devil that is coming out and doing it. So, let's talk about that a little bit. 

Jeff Le

21:52

Sure. I mean, if you're talking about so I would say illicit trade in general. Yes, is perpetrated by local economic interests. So, let's start with that. There's a marketplace for that, right. So, whether it's heroin and opium, or in trafficking in persons, there's a market for that. And that's part of the reason why it happens. It's so just acknowledging the global trends for vice is profitable, especially when it's banned, right. So, from a contraband perspective is even more lucrative for some of these groups. So, your point, it is a global phenomenon. It is not bound by borders and that way, you're right. It's mainly global, South driven. And in, you know, communities that are not of European descent, with the exception of Eastern Europe, there's some stuff you'll see, particularly in Moldova, Ukraine, I mean, I would say more underserved parts of those parts of the country, right. And so, there are elaborate efforts of logistics that happen, because everyone's incentivized to find the best conduits for this. And that's irregardless of regime. But one of the big things is, you know, that's used as a strong ploy is they talk about it as an employment opportunity for somebody. And then employment opportunity turns into force imprisonment. That's the scenario that you hear quite a bit, especially if it's someone that's like, 16,17, 18. And they're trying to provide for their family in a situation that there are very few avenues for them.

Ari Gronich

23:37

Sorry, I'm listening, and I'm fixing at the same

Jeff Le

23:40

Yeah, no, no of course, I'm sorry, you had this look like you want to ask me questions. I'm like, Okay, I'm ready for the question.

Ari Gronich

23:45

Yes. So, let's talk about the so we have an economic reason, typically, in lower income areas that breed the idea of human trafficking. And so, who are the people who are doing the taking? Who are the people who are doing the trafficking?

Jeff Le

24:07

Sure. So, if you're talking about the, if you're talking about the Syndicate, right, so it's, I wouldn't say these are pretty elaborate sophisticated organizations. Federation's, if you will, of people who have a hierarchy, bosses, turf incentives and bonuses. And the folks who are in the taking business are your sort of rank and file. And they're incentivized because of their own survival questions. And there's a triangle to the top, like we've actually talked about in some of the themes that we discussed, right? There's a power dynamic, and people are using that as a opportunity as a survival mechanism. And it doesn't have to be even in the traffic person that we're talking about it's also the trafficking of, of people to try to make it to other countries, right? Specifically, you know, the coyote types, right, and let's say in Latin America to get people, the United States, there's economic incentives. And I would say, these are not exactly people that you know, how to say, have strong lawyers, or, you know, you can trust a handshake deal. And it's usually an exorbitant amount of money that's then leveraged. So that the person then becomes not just imprisoned physically, but in prison, and in their mind that this is sort of, there's no way out. You've already gotten as far as you go.

Ari Gronich

25:40

So the crux of the Asian hate started with the shooting in the massage parlour. Being that I'm a sports therapist, and I've been a massage therapist and all that stuff I had, I had a reaction to this. And because I know that the majority of these massage parlours are actually the home for home, for people who have been human trafficked from China from Asia, in some respects. It hit me a little harder, because I'm like, you know, these people are literally here, they're living typically inside of the places that they work. And like, you know, caught kind of beds or whatever. And, and so that kind of got my interest. Right. And so, I just want to talk about that part of what it is that people if we're you know, the citizenry, right, and we're looking for ways to help with Homeland Security with human trafficking with, you know, stopping this stuff, what are the things that people can look for?

Jeff Le

26:59

Yeah. So first, so I would say in terms of, you know, some of the Asian hate, I would say, it goes further back, I think, to your point, you know, the shootings in Atlanta. I think it really shocked so many people, because of what you talked about this realization that these were very marginalized women in situations of likely objects hopelessness. And what does that say about our society that we sort of nonchalantly. Look away?

Ari Gronich

27:35

Right. Oh, I mean, we literally were, we don't nonchalantly look away. We see a neon sign that says open. And it's a massage place. And we pretty much know that that is a happy ending place. You know, I mean, in the industry, at least, we kind of stay away from neon signs in the open. But we have the Homeland Security, we've got the government, we've got police, we've got all kinds of things. And in LA, I remember, when you go to get a massage license, there was one set of inspectors who are licensing the massage for everybody else. And then one set who was inspecting for the Asian American or Asian massage parlours that were basically turned into sex shops. And so, it's a systemized thing as well. Right?

Jeff Le

28:29

Yeah. And into your point, right. There are some things that are folks are incentivized in some ways to look at other parts of it rather than the true nature. What's your IMO? So, you know, let's talk about from a regulatory perspective. Right. And I'll talk about it from a taxation issue. I'll talk about it from a health inspection. Question, right. One thing that well, two things first, and I know it sounds really, it seems so unlikely in the world we live in. But you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised just how important it is to raise the issue with your local person, your local elected official, because it's so rare that they will get an inquiry about this. I mean, think about the inquiries that your local politician’s person gets usually about the trash, or about like a noise of a complaint or violation. But if you say something like that, the thing you're talking about with the neon sign, actually, it does stand out because that's not your normal complaint. So, to the point we talked about, it's a CSA. And it is surprising how little people are willing to do that, partly because they're scared of having to deal with more of a time suck or more paperwork that comes with that. Being a good citizen. That's, I mean, honestly, one part about it, and having a real discussion with people in your community about the subject. Again, it's something people would argue there's a million things to worry about. Right? The second thing and this is a group, I really admired a group called the Polaris Project, which works on Trafficking in Persons. They have pretty strong trafficking hotline and other services that they provide, especially for people that have recently got out of that situation. And that's really the heart issue. Right. The one issue is the root issues, the root issues are really tough. But if you're talking about the individual, the human level getting out, how do you put them in a situation where they can acclimate and integrate? Especially knowing that you're strong trauma, that might come from that exploitation?

Ari Gronich

30:37

What are the incentives that come through Homeland Security for actually policing, you know, human trafficking? I mean, getting rid of the sweatshops that are in the US getting. What is it? What are the incentives for Homeland Security to actually go and do this stuff?

Jeff Le

30:57

Well, I mean, there's first and foremost that the political incentives, the political incentives, and just being snarky about it, that the press release is really nice. They should be doing more of that they're not the big challenge, honestly. Ari, is scale. It's the question if you remove one, what happens, right? And it will most likely, because if economic incentives just become harder to get to. So, it's like, okay, you knock out one nest, and then five others happen, right? So, before you have an activity before the government says, Okay, we're gonna work on this issue is we're going to have a war against sex trafficking or war against trafficking persons issues. Fundamentally, you need to commit the resources, the time the investment, and, frankly, trust in a community. Because at the end of the day, it's the community folks who understand really the ins and outs and who's, who's a real barrier, who's a real player, because the government coming in? I mean, they don't know Adam, for me. Right? Right. And so, you do need the local buy in to have that disruption.

Ari Gronich

32:05

sounds the same as Afghanistan and needing the local.

Jeff Le

32:10

It's well, it's a human, it's a community, it's a universal community question, right? It's people coming from the outside coming in, it's gonna affect your life. Who's gonna? Who wants change to happen? How do you work together to do it? And how do you do it where everyone is safe? Right, very hard, especially if there's shadowy players involved, who have firepower and incentives to make sure you disappear. That is pretty scary. The government will say, we have other fish to fry, too. So that's the other thing, the government say, hey, we're focused on cybercrime. We're focused on, you know, insider trading, you know, things like this, which, I mean, from an economic perspective, I mean, those are pretty important things are taken from a human level. It's largely because at the end of the day, these are the most vulnerable people and they're not prioritized,

Ari Gronich

33:08

Right? So, then we'll take it away from the government's rules and responsibilities, right? We put it on the people, what can the people do? Who might be passionate about these things? What can they do specifically, to end this when they see it, to recognize it when they see it, etc?

Jeff Le

33:27

Well, I think one thing is to have open conversations about it. So, like, from what I see there's very little active discussions in the public space on this topic. I don't know what you've seen. I haven't seen much of it. And maybe it's because we're just overwhelmed.

Ari Gronich

33:43

I happen to have two friends who own two separate human trafficking non-profits.

Jeff Le

33:50

Yeah, I think that's an exception, 

Ari Gronich

33:52

I am. You know, it becomes on my mind, when I see Afghanistan and the refugees coming over, I think of human trafficking. To what they're going to be subjected to. Yeah. If they come over, and we don't say, Welcome to our neighbourhoods, let me get you a job. Let me help you. If we don't do that, what's going to happen is they're going to become traffic. Right? They're going to they're going to be exploited in some way. So, I'm looking at it like, Where can I see this as a solution that we can, you know, take on the run right now? You know, I'm tired of I'm tired of talking about problems. Really tired about talking about prompts because I don't see enough people actually doing the solving of them. They're talking a lot. They're making all kinds of plans in their heads. But there's nothing being done that's substantial, specific, targeted, that has a buy in of massive amounts of people, right? That's where I'm like, where do we go to get this? Whether it's our medical system, whether it's human trafficking, whether it's the environment, whether it's whatever it is, right? We have things that we know for a fact. Right? The chemicals that are in our food are causing cancer and killing us killing our health, yet we don't take it out of the food, we don't create the incentive, right? If the incentive was that the people needed to be healthy, that's the incentive, then everything has to happen in a way to make that happen. And otherwise, you don't get paid. Right? So, you only get paid when people get healthy in the medical system. When that caused all the fraud to disappear. Literally, the system would have to morph itself just to fit that one incentive. Same thing, I believe, with human trafficking. So, anything I believe with all these other things, there's one thing and it's the incentive that we give it.

Jeff Le

36:03

Yeah, I would say I mean, I think it's really unique that you have two friends that run organizations. I mean, what I tell folks is, you can take on the issue locally, or you can sort of raise awareness in broader groups, I find the local part more interesting, because that galvanizes people to sort of face what they've always known. The two things that I tell people they could do is number one, you either give the money, or to you donate your time, your time is way more valuable. So, if you donate time, so you know, there are people at Polaris, for example, that do you know, work on digital forensics, for example? Right, I think it's a fascinating part of how you take on that issue. And then from a political advocacy perspective, what you're talking about with incentives. One thing I've seen, that isn't necessarily done in the way of scale, is groups of people come together and advocate for budget line items in their local community to say, hey, we want to have services for this community. And by the way, the federal government will match some of that money, for example, right through department from one security. So there is there is a cost buy in part that way everyone's incentivized, but again, the policymaker doesn't hear this stuff generally. So, they need to know is on their radar, that is part of their political scoreboard. So that way, allows them wins and losses. So, you have to also create the incentives as well, because they don't have the same awareness or, you know, it's not on their radar politically, those are a couple things you wouldn't consider if you're talking about like real brass tacks, I think a couple things.

Ari Gronich

37:36

Okay. I like that line items on bills, helping co-sponsor bills putting,

Jeff Le

37:42

Well not just bills, I mean, just budget, right? I mean, every municipality has a annual budget, right? Think about it, right? The money it costs to take out your trash or the money it takes to work your parks, why not have money for your social services, that also include this portion, which by the way, will also include African refugee resettlement, which will include Haitian refugee resettlement, why not also talk about other communities in that as well, I, again, I don't think I don't think there should be a difference between like, what is good and what is bad refugees are people and, you know, moral crisis. Right.

Ari Gronich

38:16

So then here, so then here's the thing. We have these NIMBYs, and we have the YIMBYs. My Backyard are Yes. In my backyard. Yep. Let's talk about the consequences of being a NIMBY. The benefits and the consequences. So what are the benefits to being a not in my backyard kind of person,

Jeff Le

38:39

Your property value will stay up. Okay. I say that very cynically, but it's true. And this is a universal thing that you see, it could be in California, could be Florida, Texas could be everywhere. People might conceptually say, Yeah, you know, these folks have, you know, they have hardship, right. All these homeless folks, if they have a hard, you know, I want to support them, just not here. And that is a significant consequence, in my mind is part of it is protecting the value of your property or protecting the borders of your school district. I think it's pretty short sighted. But it's also this perspective of I want what's best for my local people and you care about rather than the bigger picture, which is, as a citizen of this country and a citizen, the world. We're from XY place, that means there's something that is important what I'll give you one example, when I was working in California, California has a significant homelessness crisis. As you might know,

Ari Gronich

39:43

Half a million. 

Jeff Le

39:45

That's the official count, right? Yeah. The official count official counting. That's not the real numbers. I mean, something probably much higher. But in every conversation, I'd have with organizations, people They're like, Yeah, that's a great idea. And by the way, there'd be no cost to them. So, no cost of them, you would have the land given or you'd have the structure given, you'd have services provided by service organizations, all it would be really interesting ecosystem to, again, ensure that people have their basics, right. And then people will oppose it on grounds of public safety. You'll hear that on grounds of health, you'll hear on health from time to time, you'll hear it from Oh, but that might affect, you know, how we do our gatherings are like, how do we how do we ensure there's jobs for them?

Ari Gronich

0:14

That seems like a nice question to ask how do we ensure there are jobs for them? Nothing that I hear, is there going to take our jobs, Not, what, how are we going to find jobs, they're going to take our jobs. They're going to impose their belief system, which we already know, we don't like that Muslim belief system because they're trying to kill us. So, they're trying to impose our belief, their belief system on us they want Sharia law wherever they go. So, we need to fight that. That's the that's the dialogue that I hear. I live in Florida. I don't live in California. It's a very different world since I know from California to Florida. Yeah, very different politics, very different kind of questions that people ask. It's, it's almost different. The news channels are different than.

Jeff Le

1:10

Well, Florida is also five states. I mean, if you live in Miami, and you live in Tallahassee, it might as well be Mars and Venus. Right. I mean, that's, I think that's what makes Florida really interesting. You have people from all sorts of perspectives, from all sorts of histories with a geography that's very complicated, right? You have the Gulf, and you've got the Atlantic. And it's also one of the most prosperous places, for a variety of unique factors. But also, this, I think, interesting mindset of it's fleeting, which I think is so interesting, because actually, it's far from it. I think it's got so I would argue untapped potential, would you agree, untapped potential for. 

Ari Gronich

1:56

There's a lot of untapped potential, and then there's a lot of that place is going to be underwater soon. 

Jeff Le

Well, I mean, from a climate perspective, absolutely. Especially if you're talking about the actual earth under the ground. Yes. That’s real issues. 

Ari Gronich

You know, people are very concerned. Long term of you know, that New Orleans is gonna be our beachfront property. Yeah. 

Jeff Le

Well, I think, you know, adaptation and investments and infrastructure. Some of that has started. But as you can imagine, it's woefully behind. I mean, look at I mean, you know, you see that story of horrible building collapse, right? That's, I mean, there's many more of those to come.

Ari Gronich

2:39

I'm gonna switch positions a little bit. Okay, your question? Sure. That is always on my mind. Yeah, of course. That's the question of politics and government versus private industry. And what role each should play. Okay. So, I'm in Florida, and is very much a small government state, want as little government as possible, then we look at all the things that need to happen. And that would take either government expansion or incentivizing and contracting out. Right. So where do we combine?

Jeff Le

3:29

Yeah. So first, I would say fundamentally, there needs to be a very strong understanding of what you're trying to achieve. So, let's start with that. Like even before you talk about like, which toy soldiers or you know, which chess pieces you move, what game are we playing? So, what are you trying to address fundamentally? If you're trying to address climate change, for example, let's just use that as an example. Climate change. It's got a lot of significant issues that come in the next 50 years. Is there any one being or actor or thing that's going to that solves that? Is there a silver bullet to take down that werewolf? I would argue these really transformative challenges. It is a whole society approach. The key question the government has to do, this is where the government does play is they're the convener. The government needs to be the convener because they're elected by people, right? In theory, their power source, should it be that they're directly elected by the people. And that's in theory. Okay. Now, you and I both know, that's not always the case, that sometimes they're there because of perpetuity. That's a separate issue we can talk about. But the government has to have the tent to bring people in to say, Listen, the people elected us to work on XYZ issues. We know it's impossible to solve this issue without everybody's doing their part, like we were talking about earlier about the bystander. Right. The power is having a place to start a starting point. In a place like Florida, when the leadership doesn't want to take something on, two things happen. Number one, nothing happens or two somebody takes it upon themselves to do something. And it has a variety of outcomes. Right. That's very Florida, in my mind. Right. And there are some basics like I would think, you know, even in a place like Florida, which has a band of anti-regulation. How much do they care about the Everglades? The answer is a lot.

Ari Gronich

5:40

Yes. Thank you froze.

Jeff Le

5:43

I was gonna say even you know, in Florida, right. The magic of Florida is its environment. 

Ari Gronich

6:23

Sorry about that.

Jeff Le

6:24

All good. But I guess what I was saying is in a place like Florida, one of its strongest incentives is its economic prosperity driven significantly by tourism, right. Tourism that is driven by the fact that Florida is a nice place to visit, largely based on the fact that the environments really nice.

Ari Gronich

6:46

Infinity in the mosquitoes

Jeff Le

6:48

Minus those two things, you still pick it versus the winter. In May.

Ari Gronich

6:52

A lot of people do.

Jeff Le

6:55

A lot of people do snowbirds, right? Think about the economic consequence of that migration. It's a significant one, so that you can have lower taxes. Right? The math works in a small government system, if the if you have the math come in, in alternate ways, right. But what if the environment didn't look the way it did? Then what would it be? You have to change the math; you've changed the formula. So even in a conservative governorship or conservative state legislature, they understand that the quality of their Everglades, the quality of their beach lines, is essential for their prosperity. So, it's a really interesting dynamic, right? Because, you know, people generally think, oh, deregulation as Republicans. That's not true. It's just the incentives are aligned differently. And it's in their interest do that. So that's why you will see Republicans in Florida, talking about environmental, certain environmental qualities on these issues, largely from the hook. You and I were just talking.

Ari Gronich

7:53

Yeah, the only the only, I think, issue I have with that is the water quality in Florida, is never seeming to be addressed. Yeah, drinking water or drinking water is so bad. Yeah. I actually get allergic to it. I ended up sneezing. I had to get a filter for the right at home. Yeah. Well, that's why you have to go to publix, but also there's, you know, all the anti-aging and an old age medication has been ionized basically in the water. And so, we drink parts per million, so many drugs, just out of our tap water.

Jeff Le

8:35

Yeah. And, you know, that's, again, the argument there is it's the thing you can't see. So, they don't want to take it on. Right. But what they can see is the cruise boats going to Florida, wanting to hang out in the beach and coco, right. That's what they see. So, it's, it gets back to power, convening, in what's seen as an existential crisis, not just for, you know, the economy but also for their political survival.

Ari Gronich

9:05

Okay, so the last, the last question I'm going to ask you is about buy in? Yeah. Public buy in? How do you get the public to buy in on the solutions when they're in like fight or flight survival? I've got to just take care of me. I'm too anxious, you know, like, majority of people, the people who had have the money and can afford it don't seem to spend too much time talking about it or trying to fix the issues, right? The people who it's affecting the most are the people who are in that fight or flight survival mode. How do we get buy in for them to advocate on their own best beheld behalf?

Jeff Le

9:48

You know, fundamentally, first and foremost, I if there's an issue that people care about, I always tell them two things. One, have a conversation with someone you care about the issue. And I know seems really mundane. But if you can have a meaningful conversation with someone that doesn't agree with you on everything, and it's someone you care about, and their judgment really matters to you, that's one of the hardest conversations you'll ever have. So just having a baseline, the second part is sharing why it's important to you. Because at the end of the day, people want to belong to something. We talked about the very beginning. It's about belonging. And if you're working towards something far bigger than yourself, I do believe people, if motivated, inspired, from a human level, that does drive change. That's a grassroots discussion.

Ari Gronich

10:37

So, what is it that will produce that fire inside people? Because you can look at it and see reality. Reality is that we have a mass amount of issues, a mass amount of problems, and a mass amount of people going, you did it, and I'm not going to worry about it. So, you fix what you did. Instead of saying, doesn't matter who fucking broke it? who messed it up? Doesn't matter. It's not optimized, it can be optimized. Let's go optimize it right. That's where I come from, like I say, judgment out. But we have the reality is that people see it every single day they walk by it, they look at it, and they don't do anything about it.

Jeff Le

11:26

Yeah, so I would say. So, I think you still have to anchor with people you care about, because there's strength in numbers issue, like we talked about, how do you take on the bully, still have to have the strength in numbers issue. So then you need to have

Ari Gronich

11:37

Maker with people you are in relationship with?

Jeff Le

11:41

Correct. The second thing you got to do is align the pressure points. And there's two places for that right. One is your local leader, because your local leader, again is technically endowed by the voter. And they you should be the one responsible for that are held accountable because they're in the elected position. So, once you have groups of people where you can get by and say, Hey, listen, it doesn't cost us anything to raise this issue with somebody, but it can cause that person if they don't do anything about it. That's the second thing. The third, and this is where we talk about, like, where does the private sector play? All of us? I'd like I hope all of us are working for organizations that have a civic understanding. They have responsibility in the places they serve, and operating not just because of taxes, but because it's a part of the ecosystem. You have to raise those issues there as well. I don't see that. I don't see that happening nearly as much, right. The company CSR says, this is what we care about top down, guess what, it's just checkboxes and checks. That's not actually change. But you know, what I found really interesting when I talked to Fortune companies, is I talked to them about education and alignment across their workforce, not top down. And if you did genuine surveys, like real surveys, if you did genuine one on one conversations with your managers about, hey, where do you see the company should invest its economic and political mind? I think you would get something what you're talking about much more. Especially if it's a company that understands if this is more than just good PR. Right. This is we have an influence in a community. It's in our interest to show we have influenced anyways, right?

Ari Gronich

13:21

Yeah, it's funny, we we have a company in my town. That is $17 billion company a year 50,000 employees. High tech, government contracting company. And I went and had a conversation about their health care, and how they're treating their employees, you know, what system of wellness? They have? They have none, of course. Yeah, I mean, once in a while, they have, you know, vaccine shots and a bunch of you know, health insurance questionnaires at a health fair that there's nothing that they're doing for their employees wellness, and I look at it, like the productivity that goes up the community field that goes up the loyalty, the all the things that happen in a company, when you take care of your employees, recruitment and retention, have like dumped in the last 40 years. Right? Like, companies used to be places where you could go and retire, you can't go and retire at a company these days at all. So how do we get those people to a place where they feel like they're being honoured? So those companies so that's number two. And, and I would suggest that in that number two, there needs to be a lot of discussion with CEOs and with those top-down execs, that are, you know, creating the problem that they're

Jeff Le

14:59

Well I mean, Ari, as you know, it's that stuff is strategic questions and bottom line questions and you know, who really can help push that? It's board members. And so, board members have a fiduciary responsibility, but also a governance responsibility. And certainly, that's the case when I talk to Fortune companies, I will talk to some of the boards about, hey, your CSR ESG portfolio looks like x. What does that actually mean? So that those are like the true stakeholders, right? It's the shareholder, the public to some degree, but the board members are the ones who couldn't light people's hair on fire or not. Right? That's what we want needs influence. But to your point, you can make an economic argument that if you don't invest in these things, people just leave and its way more expensive to retrain people. I think that's it fair in itself, not to mention, it diminishes culture, in a way where the consumer wants a modernize experience, whatever that looks like, hard to have a modernize experience. Is Morales garbage that affects that affects the delivery of the good or the service, right? 

Ari Gronich

16:05

Number three, you it too. We got number three was number three.

Jeff Le

16:11

Oh, the third, the third thing with bringing people together and what you're going to do? Oh, yeah, well, I was gonna say that. The third thing is you do have to name and shame. There is a naming and shaming that does have to happen. That Luckily, the media landscape is desperate for stories. And guess what, like, you can talk about the dying of the local media. But people still trust the local media, because they're going there for the weather for the traffic now their sports team did. And guess what, if you talk about an issue that you really care about, you've organized a couple people to do something that's going to get airtime, content, hard to find, especially content that's meaningful content, really tough to find on something that's compelling. It's not rocket science, Ari, to get people together, reach out to the local reporter, they probably need the story more than you do. And, you know, really facilitate something. And guess what, once that happens, PR people have to reach out, the company has to reach out, they have to respond. That's the nature of what they do. So that that elevates and amplifies the voice beyond just that, You and I talking about something that sucks?

Ari Gronich

17:24

Right, exactly. That's where, you know, my whole thing is these days is there's been a lot of talking and complaining and a lot, not a lot of collaborating. And more into how do we get to a place where we're not talking anymore, just doing the things you succeed?

Jeff Le

17:44

Yeah. I mean, you do have to talk to align to what you're trying to achieve. I think that has to be an iterative process. But there are levers,

Ari Gronich

17:52

there's, there's got to be a time where the talking and complaining has ended. And the acting and doing has begun. Yes, I agree. Yes, you can analyse and review and re structure, analyse, review, restructure, but you got to start somewhere, you got to start doing something new. And you know, for instance, like we have, I don't know how many bridges that need to be replaced. Right? So, it's got to start freakin replacing these bridges. Yeah, it's such, it's so simple. It's like some simple thing. The incentives right now are where my issue lies, because the incentives are not in doing things to repair or fix, but in creating things that will become obsolete, planned obsolescence, doing things that that stop progress from happening, making, you know, things technologically, that can come out tomorrow and not bringing them out for 10 years, right? That kind of thing. Like, I want to stop that stuff. I want people to start moving on their things, doing the things that we have available. It's just shifting that money incentive into a future incentive way.

Jeff Le

19:02

And also trying to boil it down into very actionable parts, right. If you're trying to solve a big issue, it can be overwhelming. But you know, my mother says, the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. Right? It doesn't mean you just don't, you know, you don't just get your fork a knife. I mean, you really have to engage. But you have to be thoughtful in how you approach because there's only so much time, and you're fighting against these currents. But I think the things that we just talked about in terms of just I mean, those are low hanging fruit issues. And again, the more local you are, the easier it is the pressure because you're it's an everyday thing.

Ari Gronich

19:37

So if you're to leave the audience with a single thought, after all of this, what would that thought be?

Jeff Le

19:45

The thought is you can do more than you think. You can always do more than you think, and it isn't. If you want to sort of achieve important things. It certainly starts with just having the conversation like the one that you and I have been having talking to people that maybe don't see everything 100, than you get out of your comfort zone a little bit. And I know it can be a little scary. But I promise you, if we all did a better job of doing that, we'd be a much more connected stronger society. And we probably be more likely to act on things. 

Ari Gronich

20:20

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. We're always trying to create a new tomorrow today and activate our vision for a better world. And Jeff, you've been a great help in giving people actionable steps and things and insights that they can do today to do that for themselves. Where can people get a hold of you?

Jeff Le

20:38

Sure. I think the best way you can find me is on Twitter at Jeffrey D Li. And I'll, we'll make sure to put that in the notes. But I'm so appreciative for the opportunity. I'm excited about all the great things that are coming today.

Ari Gronich

20:49

Thank you so much for being here.

Jeff Le

20:51

Thank you for having me.

The difference in perception between tearing things apart, putting things back together, and peace-making versus ripping away and how does this relate to Brian Frederick's children book.

Brian enjoys acting as a full-time mediator, mainly in commercial litigation disputes. Brian is also the owner of GetMediation and heads up the panel of mediators there. 

Brian specializes in commercial disputes of all kinds, and he brings many years' practical experience to bear with a kind ear, imparting dexterity and empathy to broker effective solutions.

Brian is an accredited Mediator for Civil/Commercial and Workplace mediations. He qualified as a mediator in 2012 and has been practicing mediation ever since. Brian set up his own Commercial Mediation panel GetMediation in 2013 and is the owner and one of the senior mediators available there. GetMediation has most recently been awarded the Mediation Service of the Year Bristol 2020 prize in the Bristol Prestige Awards. 

Brian believes in cost-effective dispute resolution and insists that mediators on his panel are “adept at alleviating some of the particular personal animosity and bitterness which can tend to exacerbate the legal situation in commercial disputes, and pay particular attention to focus thoughts towards costs because the parties will often have a very uncompromising adversarial attitude towards each and every point at issue.”

He is also an author of a children's book titled Ziggy loves Sausage.

Ari Gronich

0:11

Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host, Ari Gronich. Today I have with me, Brian McKibben. Brian is an attorney turned author of children's books; I'm going to let him tell you a little bit about that story of how he went from that transition. So, Brian, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about that transition of how you went from an attorney, who specializes in mediation to an author writing children's books.

Brian McKibbin

0:43

Yeah. Well, first of all, I didn't expect to take that transition. When I went to school, I was always sort of funneled into this career. And I discovered I liked being what I sort of call an anti-lawyer more than a lawyer. So that's why I became a mediator because you're trying to put people back together rather than in litigation, you're essentially you're trying to tear them apart, it's in your best interest as a lawyer to keep the fight going, because you keep getting paid. It's in the client’s best interest to settle the case because that's what they're going to do in the end. I find I didn't like fighting. I liked peace-making. And so that was a transition in my own career. And I think with that mindset, I've always wanted to be a writer. But when I was younger, I thought I would write thrillers. And I guess with that, more sort of serious adult mindset that you might say, is in the lawyer’s typical head, when I became a mediator, it's about shifting perspective. And generally, about bringing happiness. And I think that all sort of coincided them with the little thing that happened to be in locked time, 

Ari Gronich

2:01

Component lock time, somebody may not know what that means. 

Brian McKibbin

2:05

Sorry, that's just my accent lock time. And during the pandemic, like when we were all told to stay home, some local kids decided to cheer us up, I guess. And they would, they would ring the bell, you know, the little game children play ring the doorbell and run away. But when you came to answer the door, the first time I came was very surprising, because I looked down. And there was a little bouquet of flowers. So, they left these little flowers that they picked, and they'd, they tied them up with a bit of sort of coarse grass. And, and then they came back over a few days, and it became apparent that they wanted to play a little game and, and for me to talk to them, so I did. And then gradually, these little heads would come out from where they were hiding. And we play this game that I could pretend not to see them and still talk to them, you know as if I'm talking to thin air. And this went on for a few months. And when I was taking walks, we have some woodland behind where we live, the idea of a story came to me and so I started to write this book called Flower fairies as a result of this sort of little inciting incident. And then I got, I got a bit of writer's block. With that after a while, and luckily enough for me, one of my characters in the story had this pet accident. And one day the story about one of the adventures of the little dog came to me instead. And that one flew, I'm still writing the other book, it's still in development, I guess you'd say. But Ziggy the dachshund and was born and I've written about half a dozen of those stories now. Two of them are published, and there's a sequence ready to go. So that was the transition really, partly mindset, and then partly a little bit of luck, I guess, and a little bit of inspiration from some of the little kids that, you know, came like, like the flower fairies to deliver some flowers for us, and cheer us up.

Ari Gronich

4:13

That's actually pretty cool. I like hearing those stories of what people have done during this particular craziness, to create joy and create happiness. And so that's really cool. What I'm interested in what I talked to you about a lot in our pre-interview is the differences in perception between tearing things apart, putting things back together piece making versus, you know, ripping away and how does that relate to your book? Yes, but more importantly for me is like let's dive deep into the perceptions and the things that people, you know, get benefit from in this time of like, the world feels like it's being torn apart and has been brought together. So

Brian McKibbin

5:12

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of fighters in there. When you're a litigation attorney, as I said before, you know that the profit motive is always there. So, when you talk to a client, they have a dispute, you're always telling them about a, a kind of fictitious best-case scenario, you know, ultimately, that that's why there's so many, you know, Court steps settlements because it's only in tacouple of days before the trial that your lawyer starts to level with you. And then everyone's disappointed to find that they're not going to score, you know, 100 nil here, that there's going to be a compromise. And I think, you know, the way that the world it feels at the moment as a wee bit like that, where there's just so much angst and so many people seeing so many things that aren't, you know, that aren't true or aren't verifiably true, and there's a lot of disinformation. And I think people are probably quiet, I know, I am quite anangst ridden at times, when I'm watching the news. In mediation, if I was, if I was sort of mediating that kind of situation, it's, it's about trying to change your headspace, and have a different perspective on things. And a little bit like in the books, to find that little bit of joy somewhere, because it's always there. It just depends hon ow you think about a particular event. I mean, obviously, there can be just events where it's a complete catastrophe. So, I'm not really talking about something that, you know, like a bereavement perhaps, or something like that, but something that's made you angry, is something that you can choose, you can choose your reaction you can choose if you're going to go apoplectic, and then start yelling at the television and throwing things at it. Or you can just let it be. And, you know, and get on with your life, you know, in disputes. That's, that's a picture that I try and paint for my clients that if they can,if they can reconcile the anger that they're feeling with a different perception of what could happen later today,when they walk out of the door with like, the rancor and fight the weight of this dispute. Doesn't the second thing feel better? You know, being able to go on with your precious life, because it's finite. And, you know, how many days more, are you going to waste months for years and money.

Ari Gronich

7:48

Let me see, let me take you to a dark place. Okay, let's take you to a dark place. This is something that has been going on for centuries. Sure. And I'll give you a little background. So, I had a roommate, who was a Palestinian Muslim, and she was like my sister, I'm Jewish. She and I would have amazing conversations, we would get into the meat and deep and dark and dirty and in the conflict, right? But we had the perspective of you're my sister, I'm your brother. And no matter what we say here, right, we will always be connected that way. And so, we had a way of speaking to each other that was kind and yet forceful in our own belief system. So, we were able to get these things out. So, my question to you would be, let's go to that kind of a big picture if you were mediating the, you know, Palestinian Israeli conflict, right, something that's been going on for decades, that nobody seems to have been able to get through. And I'm saying this because I didn't want to talk. I don't want to say mask versus not mask or Vax versus faxed, right. COVID versus not COVID conspiracy versus, you know, the industry is aamazing you know, perfect and would never try to hurt you. I'm not talking about the really deep stuff. I'm talking about just this conflict.

Brian McKibbin

9:26

Yeah, just this little conflict.

Ari Gronich

9:29

Just this little one. So, let's mediate this in a way that brings both sides together. Let's look at what would you do as a mediator in that situation?

Brian McKibbin

9:41

I think one of the skills the mediator tries to bring is to talk to people in a way that makes sense to them to help them reframe stuff to help them think about perspective but also to get their bbuy-inthe mediator is sincere. So, it's a nice example you've picked for me because I grew up in Northern Ireland. So, the Protestant-Catholic conflict there is quite similar and, you know, in many ways, it really is, you know, it's a lot of people look in on the, on the Palestinian Israeli conflict and see it as a Jewish Muslim thing. And there's an element of that. But my sense is that it's not just about that or you know there's a lot of nnuances the same thing in Northern Ireland, people think that it's just Protestants fighting Catholics but this there's a big proportion of people in the middle, rather than the people that you see shouting and fighting it either end. So, what I think I would do to start with is to try and reflect toth we call them participants in mediation, not parties,because party is slightly pejorative for it or divisive. So, I would talk to my participants each separately, because it's part of the ttrust-building rather than throw them into mediators different this, I don't favor throwing them straight into a room together, because I feel that a lot of tension and a lot of anxiety that they're going to feel initially. So, I come and talk to them. And hopefully ,I lower the temperature a little bit with each of them. And so tthat'show I would start is to try and reflect my own experience and help them hope, see that maybe I can have a useful perspective on their problem. And I've also some lived experience that they can, believe and that might make it worthwhile listening to me, and what am I trying to say to them. That's how it starts anyway.

Ari Gronich

11:59

Right. So, let's go deeper ointothat. So, the first idea is to gather understanding, and understanding in the mediator’s point of view is going to calm tension. So, right. So, the first idea is the middle party that has no, say in the situation, no steak, so to speak, is going to be the learning phase. So, we're learning and understanding about the other party. Now, what's next?

Brian McKibbin

12:36

Well, that phase goes into seeks sort of neatly into listening to what they want to tell you. Part of the process at that point is for them to feel heard. So, you listen, and you would reflect what they're saying so that they can understand that you're hearing them. And also, that your understanding of the same.

Ari Gronich

13:03

That technique is called active listening, correct? 

Brian McKibbin

13:08

Yep. Yes. And from there, you would start to have an element where you would ask for permission to play devil's advocate. And while when you're doing that, then you would be going through a process of trying to put into their head, the way that they having listened to them, trying to help them, imagine how the people in the other room are feeling and how the sense of their anger about whatever it is, is quite similar to that. And in talking to them about their ideal solution. And then trying to elicit some sense of, I hesitate to say sympathy, ultimately, you want some sympathy in a charged situation like that. So, it might take a while to get there, but at least a little bit of empathy. Yes. 

Ari Gronich

Right. So, do you want sympathy or empathy? 

Brian McKibbin

Well, empathy will come first. In the end ,sympathy doesn't matter so much because well, it depends what solution you're looking for, you know, if you want you kto now, if you want the sort of solution where one set of people on one side marry their daughter to the other said, son, you probably need sympathy. But if you just want people to live together a little bit of empathy will do certainly will go a long way to get into some sort of agreed solution. 

Ari Gronich

14:50

Okay so let's just I'm just breaking it down into the bits, right. So, you the learning about, we do the understanding this situation we do the asking of questions and repeating back the act of listening, repeating back what you're hearing. When a conflict like Palestine, Israel, right, we kind of have an idea of how people are feeling on one side, they're feeling rdepressedand oppressed and controlled, and like their land is being taken from them. On the other side, you got people who feel like, their entire world is always being attacked and destroyed. And they need a safe haven to be able to live and not, you know, have people wanting to kill them all the time. Right? So, you have these two different places where people are, and both sides vare ery valid. Right? So, now we have an understanding. Okay, so next, what where do you get to? How do you get from whining about the,the problems right? Into collaborating for solutions and successes? 

Brian McKibbin

16:01

Yeah. well, you would have asked them a little bit further backward about what an ideal solution will look like. And then you'll have reality tested and play devil's advocate with that a little bit so that you might have knocked some of the totally unrealistic parts of what the ideal solution a bit like, well, you know, if you're talking about litigation, it comes down to numbers, but it'll help to not guide some of what, you know, the fantasy elements, the lawyer might have told them that we can get you because it's not mean, you know, we, you know, can go on to trial, and who knows, you might have the perfect judge. But in reality, it's very unlikely, you would sort of try to narrow that ideal solution into something that begins to vaguely look like something the other side could at least look at without totally freaking out. And you'll be generally, as a mediator, I'll be going from the room with the Palestinian people, to the room with the Jewish people. And as the process goes along, and we're talking about solutions, you would start to get to the place where you're hoping that they'll start to make an offer. And then you will start to talk to the other room about this offer. And the first offer will obviously be a bridge or two too far. But, you know, you put it to them totally neutrally, because I like to say as a mediator, I'm not. I'm not in favor. I'm not against anybody. I'm Omni. 

Ari Gronich

17:48

Right, you have no steak.

Brian McKibbin

17:49

Yeah, totally no steak. I'm not in any way biased. So, I will just put the offer, this is what they've said. Occasionally, I will ask them, Is it okay? To tell them this snippet of information, this sort of, if you like, I'm the neutral insider in both camps, so I can, I can help. And that's part of the negotiation process. And hopefully, if both rooms really want to find a solution, and again, that's kind of crucial you, you start the whole process with getting agreement that we're both here today to work really hard to find the solution, whatever it is.

Ari Gronich

18:33

Okay, so now I'm going to take it a little bit further. So, you have two rooms of people with like, five people in each room. Say, Okay, so four of the people in each of those rooms, really like the solutions. One in each of those rooms is going to sabotage is like they're looking to sabotage. How do you get those people involved in the solution process? Because what I wee is like, you have the people who really want peace. The politicians,and the people who want power are the ones who have stifled in some way or another, the peace, and this is the systems in America, black and white. This is the systems everywhere else; you know that that divide us. So, when I'm looking at a group of people, and I see somebody who doesn't want to compromise who doesn't want to have an affect of solution, how do you create a solution that that is long lasting? When there's like those little elements on either side that that can't seem to let go.

Brian McKibbin

19:58

Sure, I mean, that that is the million-dollar question in our scenario here, isn't it? You know, when I'm litigating when I'm mediating litigation, it always comes down to numbers. And that's very convenient. Because that can be, you can make that as a sort of a non-emotive thing. It's just, you know, it's a trade. In our scenario, here, it's very difficult to somebody is going to be totally intransigent. I mean, mediation relies on goodwill, it's a process of building that goodwill, for people to engage in that if somebody's going to completely. If they're not going to engage with process at all, it's hard for you to move that, that final stone, I guess, the techniques that you would use is try to, try to gain their agreement, their agreement, I lied with the other people about what sorts of things they want, because that's a good technique. Insofar as, once people have stated a position I lied in, in front of people with witnesses, they don't like to go back on that. So, if you can move them towards some sort of common ground with the rest of their peers, then you might get some ultimately, though, if they're, if they're sued again, they're never going to want to come out. It's, it's difficult. And I guess, in our scenario, you know, that's kind of where we are. Having said that, you know, if you take northern islands as an example, you get, I mean, we northerner islands, you know, that it's still a naughty thing. If you, if you see at the moment, the still shenanigans go on, and but nevertheless, you know, the, the piece happened there where people stopped killing each other, so, or for the most part, at least. So, you know, that that was a massive, massive step forward. And it really required

Ari Gronich

22:12

How did how did that happen?

Brian McKibbin

22:15

Well, it happened over a period of years. So, the mediation idea is designed to happen in one day, I think that would be a, that would be a big, big trick to pull off in our scenario here. So, over a period of a much longer time, the trust that needed to be built was built in so far as each of those sides felt it was possible for them to make a move beyond anything they could have imagined before. So, for the IRA that would have been giving up their guns, under explosives and having that verifiably done on the other side. On the union aside, it was believing that was going to happen, and you know, they weren't going to, you know, they weren't when I was a child, you know, used to get these things they call all the terminology around the troubles even the troubles itself is so sort of Irishly euphemistic you know, the troubles, it sounds like a bit of an argument that you had with somebody over the fence, we used to have these things called bomb scares. So essentially, that was where somebody had planted a bomb in a shopping ccenteror something, and it was evacuated in a semi panic and you run away, just a bomb scare, I can remember things like that. So anyway, the other side were brought to a point where they could believe that those sorts of things and you know, the violence would stop, and they believed that it would. And then they had to also agree, or come to mindset that they, they were willing to, it's all about compromise the settlements, not about getting everything, you want, if it's going to happen. It's about finding something you can live with. And in the end, both sides agreed that it was it was worth people not dying, that that was a bigger prize than it was to hold on to weapons and an ideology that that required violence to achieve the result instead of a democratic means. On the other side, it was about trust that the democratic means was going to be the way forward rather than the violence, I guess. And that the process all the way along was taking them to that place where they could climb out of the trench and see the clear land in front of them instead of you know, this this obscured view that they had that made it difficult for them to believe. It was possible to get out of the trench.

Ari Gronich

25:03

So, you know, here's like the bottom line of what I hear is the incentive. What are the incentives that you're offering for me to stop my behavior? And I must have gotten that right. So, if the incentives are the things that get people to change, right, let's go back to a mask or no mask like that, or some people, they will absolutely there's no incentive that you could give somebody who doesn't want to wear a mask to wear it. There's no incentive that you could give somebody who's afraid for their lives, and wears two or three masks, just to take off the mask right at that point. So how do we get those people who are never going to agree, never going to understand each other never going to be on the same page, to at least be in a place of understanding and not trying to control one or the other. Right? This is a big one these days, this ccanceledculture this where they call it virtue ssignaling I'm or morality ssignaling and so it's like, I got vaccinated, I didn't get vaccinated. I'm going to be really excited about having gotten vaccinated, I'm going to be really excited about having not done it right. This is virtue ssignaling How do we get these two people to just say, Yeah, you do you and I do me and we could both be really excited about who each other is, instead of the way that it's been.

Brian McKibbin

28:23

Yeah. I mean, it's, I think, for me, it's, it comes back to the empathy again, you know, when you look at issues like that, or I mean, that the last American election was very like that, wasn't it? It seemed to this last sort of five years or so seems to have been a period of time where it's very polarized, you know, it's an either or, on whichever side you're standing, you know, the other side is demonized. And, and we seem to have lost that that empathy. You know, it's I don't know, whether it's the age that we live in, and the internet makes it easy to comment. And because you're not speaking to somebody face to face, you can say quite nasty things on your keyboard that you'd never say or, you know, unless you're really drunk or very mad. You ever say to somebody, somebody's face, unless you're expecting a fight, you know, a little bit like you do in your car, I guess, you know, you're sort of insulated mess. So, you can swear somebody in your past and there's just no consequence. I guess this is the thing. Anyway, the lack of empathy that I think that we, we have more often the past just as a natural sort of way of being. I think if we're going to alleviate this polarization, you know, we all have common interests and shared goals mean, in terms of masks or not masks, I mean, one place you could start is that, you know, I was gonna say nobody wants anybody to die, I suppose sometimes, at the far ends of the polarization, that's maybe not all, totally accurate. But by and large, you know, nobody wants anybody else to die. So and so that's, that's maybe something you can agree on. And I guess that's the sort of thing that you start to try and put together as a set of things that everybody can agree that, you know, we want our kids to be safe, and we want them schools to be safe, and workplaces and for people not to be in fear. And people don't generally like to fight, you know. So, there's a lot of shared values around stuff like that, but it all of them require a little bit of empathy. Because if you can't find any shred of, of something, or you could care at all about the other person, it's going to be difficult to stop that that sort of animosity, I think. 

Ari Gronich

31:15

Right. So, as a mediator, you know, you've got to be well aware of human emotions and the things that drive people forward. This show is all about creating a new tomorrow and activating our vision for a better world. You did that when you, you know, got caught up in the lockup and decided I want to become an author, while I'm sitting here waiting to you know, have things to mediate. And so, you wrote a book about a children's book about kind of what you do in mediation. So, why don't you just like, let's talk about kids, coz kids are going through amazing amounts of bullying, online, cyber bullying, and things like that. And I want to get to that kid, because you did write a book about, you know, children's books. So how do we teach? I have a seven-year-old, how do I teach my son? He's already pretty empathetic, right? But how do I teach him how to mediate in his own mind? Right? How to create that mediation mindset in his own mind. Now, so that when he's an adult, he it's in second nature to him to be in that state of empathy? how could other parents do that as well?

Brian McKibbin

32:44

I think, um, I mean, I just said, children are much better disposed and some adults to forgive and forget, and, you know, to make friends again, you know, you can see when they, when they fall out and have a fight, you know, they can be best friends in a few minutes. Maybe you have an ice cream or something. I guess, with that, as an example, you know, it's a shared experience that brings them back together and makes them happy again, I think, I would say for children, it's very good for them in general to, you know, to excite their curiosity about things. And one of the ways to do that, is to have them imagine how other people feel about this, or that. And I think that's the sort of headspace that you want them to inhabit, because that's the kind of place where, if, you know, if they're angry at someone, but they can start to perceive why that person may have acted the way that they did, and have a little bit of empathy or even sympathy with that, then they can't remain engaged with the anger and I think somewhere there is the answer to helping them be, you know, better adults and calmer, gentler, happier, people.

Ari Gronich

34:19

Awesome. So, talk to us a little bit about, you know, the few lessons in this book Ziggy loves sausage, and you know, I want to end I always end the show with three tips and tricks and things that people can do to activate their vision to make a better world to have a better world. And so, why don't you talk about Ziggy love sausage in the end the philosophies and things that will help others to create their new tomorrow and activate their vision for a better world.

Brian McKibbin

34:50

Okay, thank you. Well, Ziggy love sausages is about. It's about a little quest that this stacks and goes on but ultimately, he goes on it because he makes a promise to a friend to help them right along the way he has temptations to overcome. That's the tasty food stuffs that he has to ignore to, to get his goal, he has a little help getting his goal. Because basically, because he's a good hearted little creature, and there's a, there's a fairy that decides he deserves a little bit of help for that, then when he accomplishes the goal, and he returns this item to its rightful owner, again, ignoring the temptations along the way back, he's rewarded with a sausage, and the payoff line is that there's nothing the sausage dog loves more than sausages, even though he loves all this other stuff. So, it's about keeping your promises and being a good person, I guess. And the idea that there's happiness in, in that kind of mindset, you know, it's similar, I guess, to, you know, Christmas, the joys and the giving stuff rather than receiving it really, isn't it? So, I guess that's the lesson in the book, and something that I hope parents would want the kids to take away that, you know, selflessness is better than selfishness.

Ari Gronich

36:31

Okay, so ffulfillmentfrom giving as awesome. Is there anything else that you'd like to leave the audience with? How they could, you know, maybe better mediate themselves? How can they understand themselves more, thereby understand others more? What kind of questions can they ask themselves to get to that point? So, I just want to give the audience a little bit more love so they can really activate their visions.

Brian McKibbin

37:03

Well, I mean, ultimately, we all want to be happy. And I think that, you know, we spend a lot of time in the world today, looking at screens and seeing, I mean, the news wants to you know, the news is, is the bad news industry, really not the good news industry, isn't it, there's, it's, you know, you get higher ratings with the angst than you do with sunflowers. I would say to people that I think one thing is true. And with the kids as well as to try and go outside and see nature, because nature just is natures got, you know, no angst, if you go into the forest, the trees are, are there and they're magnificent, and beautiful, and they're not. They're not fighting, it's very difficult to be angry in a forest after a while. If you're with your child, the child has to start to be fascinated with nature and forget about his smartphone and his computer games. And I think that's, that's a great way just go in and walk in nature. And it's, it's hard to hold on to that anger. And in the doing of that your head will clear a little as well of the angst or the anger or whatever it was that that made you go outside to get a bit of relief from that. And I think I think we still do that. I've been trying to do that every day, since the pandemic happened, and I find it really useful. That that would be my top to go out into nature. So, its good.

Ari Gronich

38:39

Thank you so much for being here, Brian. I really appreciate all your, your wisdom, your ability to pivot and show that resilience as well in the face of, you know, what we've been going through is amazing and commendable. And so, I really appreciate you being on the show.

Brian McKibbin

38:57

It's been my great pleasure. Thank you. 

Jodi Woelkerling is a Leadership & Executive Coach & Trainer who specializes in assisting individuals & workplaces to better manage & overcome stress and its effects. Jodi is the owner of Jodi Woelkerling Enterprises where she coaches people on how to be resilient leaders. Jodi is also the author of World Class Leadership. Jodi is passionate about using her knowledge and experience to assist businesses to build an enduring resilient culture at the whole culture level, the various levels of leadership within the business and at the individual level, so that the business as a whole and the individuals within the business can experience the enormous benefits of an enduring resilient culture.

Highlight the emotional resilience required to use and embrace your strengths and effectively manage challenging behaviors.

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Ari Gronich

0:03

Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Jodie W. Jodie is a resilience expert and yes, I said W cuz I cannot pronounce this wonderful Australian last name. She's a resilience expert and is really fascinated with teaching others how to experience a resilient life. So, Jodi, I'm going to let you tell a little bit about yourself and what it is that you do and why you do it. And let's let the audience know, what is it about resilience that makes you tick?

Jodi Woelkerling

0:42

Yep. Beautiful. Thank you for having me on Ari. So what I focus on, as I said, as you said, is resilience. So that's resilience from people building their own resilience. And it's also from leaders building their own resilience, but also leading in a way that…

Ari Gronich

1:00

Let's define resilience for a second. 

Jodi Woelkerling

1:03

Cool, cool, cool. So I look at resilience in two kind of ways. So the first way is as much as possible, staying calm, when things happen in your life. So we're talking about kids a minute or two ago. So just say that the kids are fighting, you're trying to get ready for work, but they're fighting in to get food organized, or whatever. So there's certain stressors in life as much as possible, staying in that state of calm, and there's various things you can do to help facilitate that. But the reality is, we're all human. And very few people on the planet live in a state of Zen, 24, seven. So the other side of it is when we are actually feeling stressed and resilience is being tested, recognizing that sooner rather than later, and bringing ourselves back to a calm state as quickly as possible, because that second side recognizing it and then bring back to calm is..yeah, critical. critical turning point, yeah.

Ari Gronich

2:17

Okay. So why do you think people should be more aware of how resilience works in their own lives? And, you know, both personal business social, but what do you think? Why do you think it's important for people even recognize whether they're resilient or not?

Jodi Woelkerling

2:33

Yep, absolutely. So there's a couple of different reasons why it's really, really important to start with, it's linked with a lot of health issues. Webmd.com, I think said between 70 and 95% of doctor's visits per hour, I'd have to verify that, but I'm pretty sure it was between 70 and 95. They said doctor's visits are somehow related to stress. So that's either directly like pester does to the doctor says I'm stressed, can you help me or indirect because there's a lot of long term and I'm not medical qualified, but so please don't take this as advice. But there are a lot of long term health issues with being in a state of stress, because the state of stress changes things physiologically in it. So things like blood flow to the to the, the core organs, doesn't go as well, because if we're living in that stress state, we're living in fight or flight, the blood flow goes to the extremities, so and there's a whole lot of other physiological feeds. So…

Ari Gronich

3:39

Hold on a second. So it sounds like you're talking about emotional resilience as the only form of resilience that we're talking about in this context, so I just want to I want to make sure that I'm being correct. Are we only talking about emotional resilience? Are we talking about physical resilience, financial resilience, we're talking about other forms of resilience?

Jodi Woelkerling

4:03

Okay, it's a good it's a good question. So my focus you've correctly picked is more on the emotional resilience. But things like you said financial resilience, making sure you've got like a buffer that you can fall back on, if things go bad, that sort of stuff. Yes, does is important. And strangely enough, they're all kind of intermingled. So if you have resiliency built into your relationships in your life, it means that you handle stressors in your life better and there's probably not as many stressors so yeah, but you're definitely picked it definitely my focus is more emotional resilience.

Ari Gronich

4:41

Okay, so so let's get really deep and dark into the dirt of resilience, emotional resilience. So let's just go through a mass of litany of traumas that are possible, right betrayal, sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment, feeling not worthy, shame, right? All these things. So what benefit to those things? Does being resilient have?

Jodi Woelkerling

5:17

So questionnaires Are you talking about when those events are happening? Are you are you talking about the effect of those events on your life?

Ari Gronich

5:26

All of the above, right? So you have an events, you have something everybody's had a series of something that's occurred to them in life, right? And I guess what, what we're talking about is the benefit of having a resilient emotional outlook. So you said we're talking about emotional resilience. And I like to make sure that the audience has actionable things, right, that they can do when they leave for that. So I want to be just really clear and go down into the dirt of the matter. So when is resilience important? It's To me, it's not important. If everything is going well, in life, right? resilience is not as important if everything is going a Okay, it's only really important when we're challenged. And so that's what I'm getting to you is what are the benefits of resilience? In your personal your life? Right? When you've had all of these tragedies, all these experiences of life?

Jodi Woelkerling

6:27

Yep. So if I go back to why is it important, so I talked about the health stuff, it also has a big impact on how we function intellectually. So one of the physiological things, when we're feeling stressed is the thinking part of our brain doesn't function as well. So having resilience and being able to stay calm, to draw back to you in the moment, something's happening, how do I was an advantage is in the moment, if you are feeling stressed, the functioning part of your thinking part of the brain is impaired. So that is often when people make decisions that may not be for their best. And they also may do things like I don't know, just say that there's a there's a stress at work, they may act and yell at somebody at work or act in a way that they would prefer not to, because they're acting out of that emotional state. So in the moment, it's important because it's keeping you more in that logical state, and you are more likely to respond in a way that is better for you. short and long term. Does that answer your question? 

Ari Gronich

7:43

So, I'm gonna just break down your answer and physiological terms a little bit, right? So stress triggers your parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system to go into fight or flight. When you're in fight or flight, all of the blood goes from the main part of your organs into your extremities, so that you can run so that you can flee so that you can do something other than or stop other than processing food, processing nutrients, you're not doing any of that stuff, you're no longer processing and your organs, you're literally in fight or flight. When you're in that state. At a regular chronic level, you become in chronic pain you be you begin to develop chronic stress levels, you're talking about resilience as a mediating factor to the stress levels, right? So the resilience emotional resilience is techniques and tools that you could use to I would imagine to breathe to meditate to do things to calm that central nervous system so that you're not in fight or flight Am I correct it all the things that I've said so far translate words. Am I anything. 

Jodi Woelkerling

9:01

What I'm going to do with your permission is break it down a little bit more and talk about how I work with people, because I think that may be given a little bit more..

Ari Gronich

9:10

I'd rather not do that first, because I don't want to talk about how you work with people, right? I'm not so much interested in how we work with people as much as the direct benefits. So at the moment of what is it that resilience is what it does, how it works in the body physiologically, and then we could go to some tips and tricks and things that people can do in order to get into a state of resilience, instead of a state of stress or a state the state of fight or flight. Okay. So down and dirty on the deep part of what benefits we get from resilience. So what you're saying, if I'm hearing you correctly is that the blood is now we're going to rush back into the organs, the body is going to start going moving into a homeostasis place what benefit does that give the body?

Jodi Woelkerling

10:12

It means that it functions the way it's supposed to. So a good example is the gaps in the digestive system. So it depends it changes in its different. The way it sort of, as I said, Please, please, I am not medically trained on resilience, life coach, help coach trained, so please don't take this as medical advice. But one of the common things that people experience when they're going through prolonged stress is issues with their digestion. And that can be all different parts of your digestive from the top part where you get reflux and heartburn, way down to irritable bowel and that sort of stuff. So your whole digestive system. One of the things that happens when people are stressed is this, this area can be really affected. So it means that you're in less comfort, because some of those things are really uncomfortable and unpleasant. And it can mean that your body's not working properly to digest and to take up the nutrients of your food. So hence the health side of it. So digestion is just one of them. But it's probably one of the most common ones. It also living in that fight or flight does things like your immune system doesn't work as well. So you're not able to fight off infections as well. So the in essence, the functioning of those core organs in your body that it that other vital organs for your body running well don't work as well, because there's less blood flow in them. Because if you go back to the origins of the stress response, as you said, like the fight or flight, it is the body going, Okay, I'm in a life or death situation, what's the best chance of me surviving this life or death situation. So if you think back, caveman times, walk around a corner, there's a saber toothed tiger, your body or is very, it's actually a really cool body system. And it makes a lot of sense in that I need to get out of this. In the moment. Go my blood flow goes through my arms or legs so I can fight flight or freeze best to give him the best chance of survival. But modern life there's very few life or death situations maybe a car crash, maybe I don’t know you come across somebody in the street who has ill intent. But really in the scheme of everyday life. Now there's very few in the moment life or death. So your body's reacting, though as if you are rich, it means that Yeah, the functioning of those core things that keep you healthy and well and keep the body functioning well. Don't work as well.

Ari Gronich

13:01

So does resilience fade through time? And if so, how can somebody consistently practice resilience so that it doesn't fade? So that actually builds?

Jodi Woelkerling

13:15

An interesting question, the fighting? I think it may it requires in order for it to be retained some sort of consistent practices, some sort of consistent awareness of it. So I'm not sure if that answers whether it fades, but it requires that ongoing thing if somebody consistently is doing things in their life to help it. I can't imagine it would fade. It obviously gets tested to various degrees at different stages in you mentioned some examples. So people are going for a marriage breakup, they've lost their job, they've been having a health concern. Yeah, it gets tested to different stages, but I can't imagine it would fade on at time. What was the second part of your question Ari?

Ari Gronich

14:01

The second part is consistent practices that helped to build resilience? And also, is there a point where resilience becomes a bad thing or a negative thing? Like persistence can become obsession, right? So I can be persistent or I could be obsessive about something. Can resilience have a bad point or a negative connotation to it? 

Jodi Woelkerling

14:27

It's interesting. It's something I've never contemplated, um, my gut says, I don't think so. But I've never contemplated it. If you go back, like I said, there's very few people in the world who are who live in a state of Zen. There's a handful, so maybe like Yogi in India, or in a Buddhist monastery somewhere or somewhere. They are often able to deal with things like physical stressors or all that sort of stuff. I can't imagine there's a bad side to it. But to be honest, you've asked a really good question, because it's not something I've ever thought about. So my gut says, No, there's not a bad side.

Ari Gronich

15:13

To resilience. No. So how is how is resilience related to mental health? And if there's no like, bad side to how is it related to mental health? 

Jodi Woelkerling

15:27

Very closely related. So if you're able to stay in that state of calm and able to process things, and not, there's a difference between appearing to become and appearing to deal with things well, versus actually being calm, there's a lot of people who put on very good facade, especially in places like corporate world, but actually in yourself, being able to stay calm when things go on. Yeah, it's, it means that you are better able to cope with the things in your in your life without adversely affecting you, as I said before.

Ari Gronich

16:09

So I'm gonna challenge you for a second because I keep hearing something sad in a way that that kind of strikes me, it appears to me that your version of resilience is actually just a version of meditation or stress relief or calm, and not necessarily resilience. So it's to me I'll just, you know, go to me resilience is something crappy happens. And I'm going to bounce back, and it may take me a little bit, but I'm going to bounce back, I'm going to be resilient, I'm going to adapt to the situation, I may not be combed through it, I may not be, I may not be no stress about it, I may have a ton of stress, not be calm at all. But I'm resilient. And I will bounce back and I will make headway. And I will get ahead, right. So that's, that's where I guess I'm struggling in internally on the definition, because it doesn't sound like we have the same definition of resilience. The definition I'm hearing is one of like meditation and calm.

Jodi Woelkerling

17:21

It's part of it. But like the part that you just said, with your example, part of which, I talked about is mindset. So the stuff you're talking about his mindset is things happen in life, how am I going to mentally process that and deal with that in a way that is gonna give me the best outcome long term. So I do cover that we just haven't covered that in this conversation.

Ari Gronich

17:51

Okay, that sounds like strategy, still not resilience. See, to me, that sounds like a strategy for resiliency. Right?

Jodi Woelkerling

18:00

Mindset is a strategy, but it is also extremely practical. So, for example, to go back to you talking about something happens. So just say, I don't know you're walking along the street, and you get mad. That's a real stressor in in your life. And it's something where you can mindset, you can go into victim mode, and woe is me, and I'm so unlucky, and the world's out to get me or you can do like usage. Go, okay, well, that sucked. I need to do X, Y, and Z. So it might be replaced the credit cards, that might be whatever. And in the end, is there anything that this is actually given to him, which is an interesting twist on better things in life, I've done that a lot with people who have long term effects because of trauma. But please don't do that with other people. If you do that with somebody else, and you're not really careful how you do it, you'll get them off site very quickly, but that's a side point. But in yourself, if you look at that, something like I've been much, and you go, Okay, I guess it's such, but I need to do X, Y, and Z and I may need to have medical or emotional care x, y and Z. But if I do that, and if I go through the steps of processing it and talking about it, and changing my perspective on it, and maybe going okay, well what did it actually teach me something? Did it teach me how to handle myself in really difficult situations? It can actually that mindset shift can make a huge difference. And probably one of the most common examples I see of this as our leaders of businesses. The reason I say that is leading a business is something where your resilience is tested constantly. You're generally in charge of people who you have various relationships with. You're working with stakeholders. So that could be customers, employees, suppliers, possibly shareholders policy and possibly a board of director, you're dealing with market forces that change all the time and are often largely out of your control. And I could go on that being a head of a business is extremely testing to your resilience. So, by developing your resilience, and you look at any of the really good leaders in the world, they are able to, over a long period of time to look at those challenges that come up and be able to handle them in a way that gives them and the organization the best chance of dealing within moving beyond those stresses. So yes, I agree with you that meditation and that sort of stuff is part of it. But it's also how you deal with those things that that come up, because as you're absolutely right. Everybody goes through issues, it changes the individual what the issue is, but yeah, it's also being able to deal with it. And for it to not be a long-term issue and not to be something that long term is going to be detrimental to you. Does that make sense? Or less likely to be detrimental?

Ari Gronich

21:22

Absolutely. So, I just went, and I looked up the actual definition of the word. So, I just wanted to kind come to a place where we could get this capacity to recover quickly, from difficulties toughness, the often-remarkable resilience of so many British institutions, that's the sentence that goes with it, the ability of a substance or object is spring back into shape, elasticity, nylon is an excellent wearability and resilience. So, it bounces back into shape. So if resilience kind of means bouncing back into shape, right? Toughness, being able to go back to where you were after being stretched. Right? Um, let me let me ask you another question that is one I just thought of, is resilience good? If it puts you right back into the shape, you're in? Or do we want resilience to remold and reshape us into a more opportune up, you know, opportune version of like, let's say you were a rubber band, right? So, we pull a rubber band, it bounces back to where it was, eventually, it either gets brittle or it snaps, right? We want to be able to stretch without snapping, so to speak, to me, that's what resilience is the stretch without the snap. 

Jodi Woelkerling

23:00

It's a really, good question. You want to as a human being, be constantly developing and growing. So, if you take the thing of go back to the way you were before, you want to be able to Okay, I've dealt with this, we'll go back to the being mud situation. I want to be able to deal with this particular awful event in my life, to be able to better handle the next thing that happens in my life. So yeah, one of the goals of life is always to be constantly growing and developing and building our resilience means that we are more likely to the next stressor that happens in our life, be able to handle it better.

Ari Gronich

23:49

You know, it's funny, I was just thinking about it and martial arts. You hit something long enough, and your bones become like flexible steel, the matrix inside of the bone becomes like a massively strong web, it forges your bones into a flexible, like steel substance it strengthens creates the flexibility so that it snaps less, you know, it doesn't break as easily and so on. And it takes a lot of hitting a lot of a lot of pounding a lot of damage to create that much strength. A lot of forging if we look at just like the ancient steel swords, it was like 600 folds of hammer and fold and hammer and fold to strengthen that steel. So, resilience is a lot about being able to go through the fire being forged, so to speak. So, when resilience fails, what should somebody do? I mean. Let's say you've been forged, and then all of a sudden, you just get like, cool too quick and you shatter a little bit, right? Now what? How do we get back to that resilient place we just were?

Jodi Woelkerling

25:15

Well, um, when I go back to when I talked about the two parts of the resilience is there are times when, when we're not in zen, and our resilience is tested. So self-awareness is the first part of it, because I find so many people aren't even aware that their resilience has been tested. And that emotional outburst or whatever is going on has come from that place of lack of resilience and not being in that state of calm. So self-awareness is a huge part of it, of being able to spot it in yourself. I mean, that's, you talk about mental health, that's a lot of mental health stuff is he can't overturn something and make it better, unless you're aware of it. So, self-awareness is definitely a huge part. And then it's a case of knowing yourself and knowing what is it that I need in the moment. So, I'll take another example that causes people stress, marriage breakups, very, very common one, but it's often for a lot of people, one of the most stressful events in their life. So, people, when they're going through marriage, breakups can sometimes behave in ways that they really, objectively later wouldn't have liked to. So, and they can be all sorts of examples of that with outbursts and stuff that's not disclosed, that should be in all sorts of things. Recognizing that you're not working for my best state at the moment and knowing yourself enough so that you can do things to bring yourself back to a good state. Does that mean I need to take a week off of work and be by myself to reset? Does it mean I have to I would, I want to seek outside help, whether that is talking to friends, talking to a counselor, being kind of self-aware, and taking those steps needed in order to get yourself back to calm and that's going to be very individual, for different people. That's just a couple of examples like the take time off.

Ari Gronich

27:27

Right? So let me let me take this down a darker path that we start talking in our pre interview a little bit about the pressure cooker, that is the world right now. And, you know, we both had some thoughts about this pressure cooker, that's how I describe it I describe the world right now is basically we're like trapped, and they're trapping us more trying to keep us contained more, and it's a pressure cooker, and eventually, you know, we're going to explode. And that's just the nature of a pressure cooker. So, without getting to the deep pain of war, the deep pain of brutal, you know, civil unrest. What can we do now to build personal resilience, and then group resilience around the concept of what we're going through as a world you know, you and I talked a lot, a little bit about it, but I'd like, I'd like the audience to hear some of what you had said.

Jodi Woelkerling

28:51

Yep. Um, it's such an enormous issue at the moment. So in terms of your own personal resilience, knowing yourself spotting when it's being tested, really listening to your own inner voice of what you need, and taking steps to help yourself so even if I mean Victoria in Australia, and we've been one of the most lockdown parts of the world, and yes, what you can, what you are allowed to do is a lot more legally allowed to do is a lot more restricted. But there's still things that you can do in yourself. So again, it goes back to the knowing yourself being self-aware, and actually making yourself a priority and taking those steps to help yourself so for me, for example, walking is a big one. So, taking time and making sure I allocate time to actually go for a walk, I have bush land near me and spend some time in nature and that sort of stuff. So that's from a personal side and having, this without going too much into rabbit hole system, things that are happening that are really concerning. But there's some things that are majorly concerning for people, in terms of you said of the civil rights, their body sovereignty, their ability to be able to earn a living for some people. I mean, if you were working in the travel industry over the last year, your ability to earn a living would have been seriously affected. knowing yourself and taking steps in yourself to bring yourself back to the status. And I often find it's very easy. And I've seen a lot of it in this environment of wanting to bury your head in the sand and almost hand over your decisions in your thinking process to someone else's sin. A lot of people do that.

Jodi Woelkerling

31:10

I'm sort of trying to work out how to actually put this. It's almost like the most resilient people I see are often the people who've gone through bad stuff, and they see the bad stuff. So, they see some of the very concerning patterns that are going on. And they're trying to operate from a place of keeping themselves okay and descend a little bit. Woohoo, to operate from a place of love and look at people who are who may because there's been one thing that's happened in this environment is a lot of division. And a lot of people talk about cancel culture and that sort of stuff, a lot of tensions with people who they weren't previously tensions with. So, the people from my perspective, who I see handling this with the most kind of logical, go back to the word Zen kind of way they stay. They're aware of in themselves, they see the patterns of what's going on. And they're coming from that place of love. And sometimes from that place of action in terms of dealing with it. So, there's certain legal people in the world, there's this, there's people who are really seriously fighting this. So though, not sure if I'm answering your question.

Ari Gronich

32:34

That's okay. I'll get there. So, we worked around the rabbit hole, we want to dive into the rabbit hole. So stop beating around the bush, just go into the rabbit hole, where you really want to speak. You and I talked about this? I know what you had said to me.

Jodi Woelkerling

32:58

Yeah. Yeah. So which particular rabbit hole you referring to? 

Ari Gronich

33:03

Well, we're talking about pressure cooker, we're talking about resilience, right? So, the pressure cooker is that the world is locking us up. And if we don't do something, as a person, as an individual, and as a community together, we're going to explode, right? So, if I'm going to try to avoid the explosion, or at least limit the amount of explosion and steam that can come out, then what am I going to do to be resilient? What am I going to do in order as a community to let off the scene without it becoming a violent expression?

Jodi Woelkerling

33:41

Yep. Again, I'm going to go back to the knowing yourself developing your own self resilience. 

Ari Gronich

33:48

So with knowing yourself part. There's a lot of people who have never heard that statement. They've never heard the statement of becoming self-aware. That would be that would be woowoo. Enough for somebody they don't they've never heard I want to, why would they have never seen a mirror and seeing it as something other than a place to take a selfie? Right? So, there's an awareness of self-awareness that doesn't exist. I think for a lot of people, like a majority of people have no idea what self-awareness is. So, I want to take you away from that term. And just like let's define that out so that somebody who's listening who doesn't maybe know what that means can say, Okay, I want to become whatever that is that she just said, what do I do to do that? And why is it that I'm not that.

Jodi Woelkerling

34:44

So often it takes an outside person to help you with this process, not for everybody. But this is where coaches and coaches are different to counselors in that they will do similar to what you're doing is a little bit of challenge and push outside of comfort zones. And notice that you're doing. I can tell I'm often for somebody who is really unaware, having an outside person will help them develop that in themselves. But so being self-aware is things like knowing your triggers, knowing your automatic reactions, realizing that is actually a choice, you actually choose to do that whether you're conscious of it or not. It's having the realization that just because I think it doesn't make it real. Because we always have this constant voice going around in our head, just because we think it doesn't mean it's the reality. So, people can develop in themselves. And there's, there's ways to do that. But for a lot of people, especially somebody who, as you said that the selfie, yeah, if they want to develop that it often would take a coach and an outside person to actually help them develop that in themselves. And why would they do that? It means that they can react at my own question, it means that they can react more from more from what is true to themselves, and what they really want in their soul rather than from automatic response. So, for example, I mentioned before, there's a lot of division happening now. Most people, and probably sounds Woohoo, but my theory is most people want love and connection in their life. And there's things that happen that mean that they push that away, but at our core, most people want love and connection. But if you are reacting with so just say there's somebody who has a different opinion to you or is reacting to what's going on in different ways to you. And your reaction to them, is aggression and disapproval and judgment. You're acting from either triggers a habitual response, a state of fear. There's all sorts of reasons why people are doing that at the moment. I mean, yeah. If they were self-aware, they will be aware that that's what they're doing, that they're maybe not reacting in a way that is true. coherence with who in their core they want to be.

Ari Gronich

37:42

Right? So, I'm gonna, take this to Facebook, right? We're going to Facebook now. And somebody has written another something about something that just, I just am just so triggered by her. How do I do what you just said? I don't cancel culture. And I don't want to be the person who's triggered so I'm going to start attacking that person on their on their own posts, right? What do I do? What do I do? I'm triggered.

Jodi Woelkerling

38:22

It's interesting, because I had this happened to me recently. And my response to it was, there's too much of this. My life's too short, and I stopped using Facebook. I use it for a little bit of this and it wasn't the first time it was just like the final straw. I use it for posting my business stuff. But otherwise, I pretty much don't use it anymore. So yeah, it's about what I did was go okay. There is no point arguing with this person or stating my point. Again. 

Ari Gronich

38:59

I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the person who's triggered by your post, you post something. I'm triggered by your post. Who I do. To not be the person that is trolling to not be the person that is just reacting to every post that I don't agree with that, you know, like, that's actually becoming self-aware and saying, holy crap, I just got triggered by some random person's post. And I'm not going to do what I normally do and, you know, shout my, you know, trigger all over the other person, I'm going to be resilient. I'm going to figure out why this trigger is triggering me and I'm going to figure out what's causing me to have that reaction, right. So, the question that I'm asking you is, how does somebody go about realizing that they're being that they are the troll realizing that like, if everybody's the troll. Everybody, because you're the troll for your opinion, right? So if you're the troll for your opinion, and you're doing something where you want to cancel or you want to cut off, or you want to stop the trigger, right? So, so here's my thing, I don't want to stop the trigger, I want to stop my response to the trigger. That's how I want to be resilient. Cuz there's going to be triggers for my whole life that I'm not going to be able to stop, right? So I want to be resilient. And I want to stop my reaction to the triggers.

Jodi Woelkerling

0:05

So I guess why went to me is because that's exactly what I did. So I was triggered by her response. And I went, Okay, what and try to work from that logical part of the brain? How can I respond to this for one response is his attack back? And obviously, that's you're saying what you don't want to do? And work. Okay, so what's a better solution to this? Is this something that I need to process in some way, by talking to somebody who comes from the same path as me? Do I need to scribble it down in a journal, process it in a way that you're not operating out of that emotional triggered state, because to me, that's the key. If you're acting on almost like survival type of emotions, which I think is what's happening with a lot of these tensions that are going on. People have their map of the world, which may be very, very different to person x, who's responded to the Facebook post. Basically, working in a way that you can process that you're not working from that emotional state. So again, if we're going to talk about the example with me, what I did was back off and not respond. And yes, I was emotionally triggered. But by pretty much went through a process in myself of almost decoding and I didn't journal actually mentally processed it myself and probably talked a little bit out loud to myself and that sort of stuff. So, process in a way that you're not working from that emotionally triggered state. Because that emotionally triggered state, you're not going to work in the most logical way.

Ari Gronich

1:54

Yeah. And I'm just going to add one thing to that is typically taking yourself out of it like a third person, so treating yourself like you're a third person in the situation. Why does Ari feel that way?

Jodi Woelkerling

2:12

But you're seeing yourself from an outside perspective. Yep. It's a good point. And once you're not emotionally emission it, you can then go, logically, what's my next best step? So, for me, I was triggered emotionally processed it and go, well, what's the best way forward? And my conclusion was, well, am I actually achieving anything by continuing using Facebook and I just went up to my logical reaction was, my life's too short, I don't need this rubbish. And I walked away. And I mean, that can apply to so many different things. Oh, my gosh, it's so highlighted, as you said, by what's going on at the moment, there is division and cancelling of, if you have a different opinion to me, you're therefore less of a person or whatever, which is just, I don't know, it just goes so against what people want to do in their souls. And I know I sound probably Woohoo, and idealistic. But really, in the end, we don't want to be treating other people badly. It's an emotive reaction that really it so we wouldn't want to do.

Ari Gronich

3:24

Right. So unfortunately, that seems to be the case. For at least, you know, like, half of the culture this these days is like, as if you don't agree with every single thought that I had, and going back 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, if ever any point in time, you did not agree with the thought that I have now, I must cancel you. Because I can't be around anything that isn't exactly the same as the way that I feel. Now, that to me is the antithesis of resilience, the antithesis of adaptability, right. It's the opposite, saying that the whole culture of canceled culture, If I can't have you exactly the way I want you, then you're going to be gone. Right?

Jodi Woelkerling

4:24

That's you're saying that easily isn't really.

Ari Gronich

4:27

Antithesis. It's the exact opposite of resilience. So, resilience is, it doesn't matter what you believe, I can still be your friend, I can still have a conversation with you. I can still love you no matter what. I don't have to agree with every word you say, but I'm resilient in my open mind and my thinking, I'm resilient in my body. If I get injured, I'm going to bounce back and I'm going to train and I'm going to get better. I'm not going to let that injury takes me out of life, right? So that's resilience to me is the is that core, bouncing back, there is no resilience and cancel culture, there's no resilience. There's no strength, there's no power. There's no nothing in cancel culture, it's the most intense form, in my opinion of weakness, of human nature that human nature could ever produce.

Jodi Woelkerling

5:27

Yep. And as we both said, we're seeing a lot of it at the moment. And I think it's a sign of people, you know, you're talking about it is a sign of people not being resilient, and then being really pressured by what's actually going on externally that’s, they feel like it's not in their control, they feel fearful.

Ari Gronich

5:48

Yeah, right. So, then the question becomes, with all of the bombardment of society these days, how does somebody stay in that state of resilience, right? How does somebody stay there, so that they can actually be a contributing factor to the world versus somebody who's sucked up by the world? 

Jodi Woelkerling

6:14

So, the first side is if you are feeling so being the self-awareness, as I've said, and if you are feeling triggered, having things to bring yourself back to calm, and I'm quite happy to share those with the audience, too. So, there's certain ways, okay, so different things work for different people, but there are certain they talked to the physiological stress response helped to reset your physiology back to, to a steady calm. So, things like deep belly breathing, where you sit up right, and you're breathing very slowly from the bottom of your lungs, he can tell you during that because your belly goes in and out. And you can do just a couple of minutes of that, and that will reset physiological response. There's a series of other ones. My favorite one is actually I call it giving yourself a hug. So, you do this, it actually physiologically changes you back to a state of calm. I say it feels like a warm hug from grandma. There's all sorts of other ones as well that bring yourself back to calm so you can

Ari Gronich

7:23

And the rolling out the ears does that a little bit. So, in brain gym, there's this technique for thinking caps. As your whole body is represented in your ears the same way as in your hands the same way as in your feet. And reflexology. This looks like a baby in the womb. Right? And so, all of these points are points that relate to your body. And so, if you roll out your ears it magically touches a button and helps with that the one that I tell all of my autistic parents, parents of autistic kids is right about here. There's like a notch. If you tap slowly, like a heartbeat 42 times it basically will calm the anxiety response of a child who's going through an autistic, like, anxiety attack.

Jodi Woelkerling

8:43

That's, that's a good one for autistic kids because mom and dad can do it. Yeah. Interest this, there's a whole range of them. Um, my favorite one for people who are in positions where they're surrounded by people. And so, if you do this, or you do this, it's pretty obvious you're doing something. So, the one that I tell people to go to, if they're surrounded by people, and they don't want people around them to realize they're doing something is when you feel stressed, your mouth dries up. And most people can pick realize this. So, things like public speaking, most people, when they're nervous about public speaking, they find that their mouth dry. It's a physiological reaction to as part of the whole stress, fight or flight. If you stop yourself from swallowing your saliva, let it build up and swirl it around in your mouth. That's telling the body that I'm not in this life-or-death situation and bring you back to calm that's my favorite for people who are surrounded by other people. So, like they're in a boardroom meeting or whatever. Yeah, but there's a whole range of them. So that's the first part recognizing bring yourself back to come but there's also a lot of lifestyle things that you can do that means that you are more able to react from this state. And with what's happened over the last 18 months, I wonder how much of this is related. So, the lifestyle things I mean, you mentioned meditation and mindfulness, they're definitely part of it. But your basic, your free health basics of sleep, diet and exercise, have an enormous difference. So, if I do sleep as an example, most people when they're feeling stressed, one of the first thing that gets affected is the quality or quantity of sleep. So, they have the racy mind, or they wake up lots or there are wide awake at four o'clock in the morning, can't get back to sleep. So, if you're stressed, your sleeps affected, the flip is also the case that if you're you haven't had a good night's sleep, you're less able to handle stressors as they come in your life. So, it works both ways. So, there are so many things that help build your ability to deal with other things in in your life. So, as I said, sleep, diet, exercise, connections with other people, ways of processing the things going around in your head. So, one of my favorite for people who are triggered a lot and are feeling a lot of emotional is fears and resentment journaling. So, this is this is a technique that I kind of picked up from a lady who I follow on YouTube. That's basically it's a way of almost like a brain dump and a processing of what am I fearful of? What am I resentful of? And by actually physically recording them in a journal, you're getting yourself out of that emotionally triggered state, putting it onto the paper and it's almost like a relief process. So, things like gratitude journaling, a fantastic but if you're feeling really triggered, you almost need kind of both Yeah,

Ari Gronich

12:12

I find that gratitude journals are great if you're feeling gratitude, if you're not feeling gratitude, they suck. The whole concept of doing gratitude, when you're not feeling gratitude, to me is a misnomer because you have to go through the crap in order to get to the shine. And the gratitude comes only from going through the crap. Right? So if you're not willing to do that step, then you're just faking yourself as far as the gratitude journals go.

Jodi Woelkerling

12:46

You're making a really good point because one thing that I see in people I've got some people who I've come across in my life who love and light people, they're gorgeous people but they love and light and everything's got a positive spin and I don't want to hear about or talk about the negative. Yeah, what that means is often they I find that that that doesn't really in the end fix anything right?

Ari Gronich

13:16

Avoidance is always the greatest of ways to avoid fixing anything

Jodi Woelkerling

13:21

What you'll generally find is it'll show in other ways so it will show so just say they've had a huge trauma in their life and they go I'm on level nine I'm not processing or looking at that it'll generally shun says this is yeah it'll show in other ways so things like illnesses or yes some sort of other dysfunction so in order to actually move beyond something authentically and sustainably and again resiliently is to actually it's almost like look the monster in the face a lot of spiritual people will call it Shadow Work so working through the sides of yourself that you generally don't want to see they're uncomfortable to see and by actually working through those you're actually able to move beyond them so I agree with you in terms of the gratitude journaling if you're in a deep dark place gratitude journaling is not the go to. 

Ari Gronich

14:24

You know it's funny at the saying just popped in my head just now, the saying is if the only thing you see is the light then you are the shadow.

Jodi Woelkerling

14:37

Oh, that's interesting, because he said that the coach

Ari Gronich

14:40

Yeah, I just made it up. 

Jodi Woelkerling

14:42

Oh, there you go. We'll have to write that down and put a put it in in the history books, but you're right. I agree.

Ari Gronich

14:48

My team will take care of that. But the reason why I say that is because every time I've done Shadow Work, I'm delight doing my shadow work, right. So, I'm Shining a light into the shadows right but if all I see is light there's no contrast that makes me the contrast, I'm the shadow. So, it's just kind of interesting that because in that new age world you know so many people want to be enlightened so many people, I want to be enlightened I want to be enlightened I want to be enlightened, I want to raise my vibration I want to go up I want to higher, higher, right? frequency higher this higher that. But we're human and we're like, we're spiritual beings having a human experience, not the other way around. So why do we continually want to die and go back to spirit instead of live in this human body that we're in? And so that's where I go like, okay, so yeah, I don't want to get that enlightened. You know, like, I'll do that when I'm dead. Right now, I want to get really, really, really good at living this life and turning those shadows into light.

Jodi Woelkerling

16:05

It's such a good point. Um, I think a lot of people avoid it, when they're either not aware of it, or they it's, it's scary and confronting to go through Shadow Work. If you look at a lot of people who are spiritual teachers. So, there's a there's a lady called Christina Lopes, who, who I follow fairly closely. She's a spiritual coach and a spiritual teacher. Her and a lot of other spiritual teachers will talk about the stages of spiritual awakening. And a major part of that is they call it dark night of the soul, which is basically you're working through your shadow, you're almost living in your shadow in order to and it's only by working through that, that you actually go to the next stages of spiritual awakening. But it is hard it's uncomfortable, it's hard. For a lot of people, they will choose the old go do something that's,

Ari Gronich

17:13

They choose the easy route of living mundane lives instead of going through the hard You know, route of living in a fantastic life.

Jodi Woelkerling

17:23

Or they'll live painkilling life, right? 

Ari Gronich

17:27

It’s not the painkiller. See that, to me is the misnomer. I think that the people who are who are not challenging themselves to go through it, are the people who are suffering the most in mediocrity.

Jodi Woelkerling

17:42

Probably. So, for example, um, there are there are things that you can do that in the moment may feel good, but in the end, they're really not good for you. So obvious things are things like alcohol and access, cake, candy, pizza. There's things that that in in small amounts are absolutely, they fine, but to access and for them to be emotional Gosha and painkilling. In the moment, it might be okay, but long term, it's really not the best for you. There's that's where a lot of people go to it takes more of a level of bravery and more of a level of self-empowerment to actually go No, that isn't the reaction that I want and more of a level of looking for what's the if you take the cake and the food stuff as an example, it's your perception of pleasure and pain. So are you focusing on the eating this salad I really hate salad, it's just horrible eating salad. And I don't think that way. But if you're focusing on why this thing that you're doing that's meant to be good for your body, your is painful, you're very unlikely to actually stick to it.

Jodi Woelkerling

19:09

Whereas if you focus on all this, this pizza is making me feel so good. Which I don't think people physically do that. But anyway, if they are focusing on the pleasure is on the eating, then they're, less likely to be able to sustain the change long term. Whereas if they go, Okay, I'm eating this salad what that means as my body is getting the nutrients it needs, it means that I'm dropping these extra extra weight that I want to drop over and they're focusing on the pleasure of the good outcome. It's a Tony Robbins thing that the pleasure and pain concept, but I think it's actually really, really true. It's like, if you look at rich people and you feel resentful towards them. When you try and get rich yourself, you're subconsciously going to go I'm going to be a bad person if I'm rich, and you will subconsciously, you won't even be aware of it most of the time, sabotage yourself, there's so many things like that in life.

Ari Gronich

20:06

Absolutely. So, let's kind of wrap up resilience in this world with like, three tips and tricks you haven't used that you use with your clients. And so, something that people can do today, to start activating their vision for a better world, meaning they want to create a new tomorrow, something in this life is going to trigger them, it's going to stop them, it's going to slow them down, it's going to be a barrier in their way. We want them to have resilience so that they can activate their vision for a better world, give them three things that they can do, immediately.

Jodi Woelkerling

20:45

Yep. So, I would say, to develop your self-awareness. So, you can do that in various ways. I mean, I mentioned it several times through, you can develop in several ways. So, things like mindfulness practices are really good for developing a self-awareness. So, for example, mindfulness meditation means that just say, You're triggered and you're feeling stressed, there are certain physiological reactions that happen in your body, most people aren't aware of them in the body, or mentally, if you develop mindfulness, then you're better able to spot that in yourself. So that would be the first thing is a mindfulness practice. And it can be mindfulness meditation, it can be consciously doing things that you would do on automatic pilot, it could be, as I mentioned, I go for walks in nature, consciously tuning into all of the bird sounds. And so, mindfulness would be the first one. So, with the aim of being aware of what's happening, because I always run with the theory of you can't overturn or stop something unless you're aware of it. So it's always that the starting point. The second thing I would say, is have a look in those things in your life that are that need tweaking that need work on them that are better for your well-being long term. So, as I said, things like sleep, diet, exercise, relationships, work life balance, have almost do like a real thought process of Okay, what do I really need to work on here. And I mentioned sleep kind of repeatedly because it's one of the most common ones, that's a problem for people. And it's not just about quantity, it's also about the quality of the sleep.

Ari Gronich

22:37

There are five cycles that people need to go through every single night. And most people get two of those. Two of those cycles. And those cycles are what puts you into that deep REM sleep where you actually are producing human growth hormone, which means that you're recovering from stress, you're building your muscle tissue, your repairing scar down, you know, scar tissue and damage that you've done to yourself. So, all of those things happen during this one particular cycle of sleep. And you need to have five of those in order to have proper physiological function. And most people are getting approximately two of those a night.

Jodi Woelkerling

23:23

I'm preaching to the converted Ari. And you said 30, I would say to go through and work on those subconscious things. So, we touched on that a bit with the shadow work, but most people to various degrees, have things that have happened, the subconscious things that are automatic reactions in your life, and they're often established around those first seven years of your life. So, what I mean by that is things like, beliefs, values, perceptions, there are automatic things that people have in their life, actually really do that work and uncover them. And if I'm working with people, one on one with coaching, I talk about the three levels and pretty much the three tips I've just gone through level one, level two, level three, the level three is where when I'm coaching with people, I spent the bulk of the time because they're the things that people aren't generally aware of the normally subconscious and the things that have an enormous effect on our life and the way we handle and respond to things so working through those subconscious things are my gosh, it can be absolutely life changing. Yeah, so just say a given example because I'm talking fairly high level. So just say you have a core belief that you're not you're not capable Which a lot of people actually have it's like an inner core belief of they're not they're not good enough that actually uncovering that and working on an overturning and over a period of time can be I'm not exaggerating when I say it can be absolutely life changing.

Ari Gronich

25:21

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here I appreciate you greatly. And where can people get ahold of you if they'd like to learn more?

Jodi Woelkerling

25:31

Yep, so my websites a really good sort of start go to so my I'm sure in the show notes you'll have my full name so it's just jodiwoelkerling.com. So my website if you're on LinkedIn I'm fairly active on LinkedIn so you can look Jodi Woelkerling up on LinkedIn and message me that way. I've for anybody who's in kind of leadership positions I've got a book that's about I'm not sure what your lead time is on shows everywhere. Currently mid-September now so probably in the next week or so that will be released. So, if you're interested in getting a copy of that..

Ari Gronich

26:16

We'll have that link down below. 

Jodi Woelkerling

26:20

Beautiful websites definitely the place and if you want to chat to me this this spots in there that you can reach out to have a complimentary starting chat. 

Ari Gronich

26:29

Perfect thank you so much for being here. This has been another great episode of create a new tomorrow I'm your host Ari Gronich and I just wish you all activating your vision for a better world creating a new tomorrow for yourself and those around us. Let's get moving on this people. solutions are up it's time for him let's engage contacts me Subscribe, comment, play with me hang out. Let's change the world together.

Here with us today is Jason Szeftel. He is an expert with China politics. Listen how we tackle issues regarding force labor and many more.

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Ari Gronich

0:25

Welcome back to another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Jason Szeftel. Jason is an expert in China politics. He is a writer, a podcaster, and a consultant. He's been in the world of sustainability. And I'm really excited to have a conversation with him about all of that, because, you know, this world we're living in is changing. And we are creating a new tomorrow today and activating our vision for a better world. And Jason might have some good ways for you to do that. And, you know, relationships with the rest of the world. Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason Szeftel

1:45

Thanks, Ari. I'm glad to be here.

Ari Gronich

1:49

Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got started in, in the relationship with China, and some of your sustainability and those kinds of things. your background?

Jason Szeftel

2:02

Yeah, sure. My China angle for me goes back a long time, probably around 20 years. But I was really, really got interested in China around when 911 and the Iraq war. And all of that really started. That was very curious about not even curious, I was kind of worried and curious and tense and nervous, wondering what was going on in the world, are we going to see with China, the same sort of bizarre miscalculations and hysterical reactions we saw with the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then here we are 20 years later, and we've kind of fled with our tail tucked between our legs. And over that time, I just wanted to learn what was really going on in China, what the country was really about what to do with a country that's so large and complex. And we had to understand we have to really understand it, if you want to have any sort of way to get our hands around where it's going and where it comes from. Really. And then yeah, so I started I went, I learned Chinese. In college, I got a scholarship to study in China, in Beijing, at Beijing University. There, I learned about various systems. Actually, that's where a lot of the sustainability stuff came in. I was really interested early on, in how are we developing the world today? How, what systems what electrical types of systems are we building, sustainable water systems, transportation systems, all of this. And when I was actually in China, I was studying their transportation networks, agricultural systems, their demography, all of those inputs that kind of give us the societies that we live in. I was just very curious where that was going. And yeah, at the time, that was the, you know, 2010 to 2015, I was in and out of China, most of the time. And that was where that was kind of the heyday for me of sustainability, and what kind of sustainable future we were going to build. And I actually learned a lot of things that kind of set me against a lot of the mainstream about how would we would get that done? And what would work and what wouldn't work? And yeah, so I've just been kind of putting some pieces together, trying to figure out what could work and what we could do, and then trying to share it with people.

Ari Gronich

4:00

Awesome. So you know, this show is all about going against the mainstream. So let's talk about a little bit of what the mainstream solutions are. And what you've found, are the flaws in those systems, and you know, how they can be improved?

Jason Szeftel

4:17

Sure, well, right now, the two main systems from a sort of renewable energy perspective, it could just take this sort of green energy, which is very important, since the Industrial Revolution, you need energy to run society to run any of these civilizations, any of these industrial systems. And we've typically ran on fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, and everyone, every where's talking about how we're going to get rid of them. And the main two that we've come up with are basically wind turbines, wind energy, and then solar energy with solar panels. And these two things are awesome. I have nothing against them. I think they're very cool. But the issue is that most of the world, the vast majority of the world does not have the solar irradiation you need or the wind speed, height and consistency that you need to have panels, I mean startup panels or turbines running. So if you sort of map it out, and you look at the sort of places where you have the right solar conditions, or at certain conditions that radiation you need, or the right wind conditions, to a very small percentage of the world. And you if you put that next to the places that have the population centers nearby, it's tough otherwise, you have to build very, very large transmission systems. And in the United States, for example, it's very tough to build a single transmission line, it can take decades, it can take 10,15 years. And so, red tape, but a lot of things, it could be environmental things, you could be crossing a lot of preserve, you know, sort of habitats that need to be preserved or endangered species, it can cross through tribal lands, red tape, and then yeah, and then there's increasing backlash from a lot of rural areas. So in California, the two oldest areas for one of the tools areas for wind and solar energy is near Palm Springs. And people in Palm Springs now see a lot of the solar and wind energy production as almost industrializing the landscape. So they don't want to see wind turbines, as far as the eye can see that I want solar panels on all land surrounding them. And it's a real challenge. So that's particularly on the left, where there's so much investment in these two technologies, there's ever more competing interests. And it's interesting that these are both environmental versus environmental, environmental versus humanitarian, environmental versus sometimes racial or other other justice issues.

Ari Gronich

6:38

So when it comes to those two, right, we're not talking about something that I've thought of as a great source of energy for years, which is wave energy, right, the flowing of waves, so they're constantly coming into shore, there is a way to harness that energy, right. But we're not talking about that as far as like a main kind of energy source. The other thing that comes to mind with regards to things like the wind turbines, right, I remember reading, this is maybe 12, 13 years ago, and a Popular Science magazine was a wind turbine that was horizontal. So instead of vertically spinning, it's been horizontal and spun on basically a fulcrum. So there was very little resistance. So it was like a three mile per hour breeze that would cause it to generate energy, which is almost nothing and can be found almost everywhere. Yet, those kinds of newer forms of the old technology still aren't being adopted, right? The solar panels are just starting to undergo transformation in their technology as well. To make you know them less expensive. So here's my question, the point of that rant is, when it comes to these things, how quickly can we move with technology if we got out of our own way, rather than holding technology back due to money concerns and other things like that?

Jason Szeftel

8:31

Yeah, it's an open question. But even you bring up a really good point, that there are different styles of these sorts of technologies, and some of them aren't being considered as much. A big reason why is that? It's a question of scale, and centralization, and a lot of ways. So the large solar and wind companies are just as invested in controlling these resources as a typical fossil fuel company, oil company is. So they want to build giant wind farms. And giant solar farms. Because it gives you scale, it gives you a large size. They're not as interested in doing small micro local sorts of things. There's a big battle going on between should we have giant, giant transmission lines all over the world and all over the country in sort of take advantage of the great wind corridors in the center of the country and sort of shift the energy out, you know, and take advantage of, you know, the Southwest, the United States for solar, or should we try and do this in a more diffuse distributed way, where you have little, little power plants everywhere? I mean that's a big question. Yeah, I mean, that's just one of the things we always got to remember. It's trillions of dollars to replace the grid. And it brings up real questions about reliability, about who runs it, how the systems work, because they're not meant for solar panels on every house. That's not how they're designed. And we'll see where it goes. But you also bring up the question of the tech, the actual, how far can we go? With the technologies we have and so, on solar panels, there's about there's an efficiency threshold, we really not gonna be able to go beyond it. But it's very good, I mean, it's very good. And then with wind turbines, you're sort of what they've decided to do is just go for bigger and bigger turbines, they're not really changing, like, the arrangement of them, they really just want them huge. I mean, I think they're multiple football fields long at this point. And that's also really good for the companies. Companies like vest das in Europe, the manufacturers, these because no one is gonna come at you, if you manage. If you're manufacturing things that big. It's, there's very few companies that can do it. The other question is the industry, where's it located? So and so one of the things with solar panels Is that something like 80% of all solar panels are built in China. And most of the polysilicon one of the key ingredients comes from shinjang. Whereas run it where the entire system runs on forced labor. So there's a big question about, well, should we be getting solar panels from there? You know, if we ramp it up to kind of expand it all over the country and all over the world to run on solar energy? Are we going to do that on the backs of forced labor, in western China, with their people, and basically, in concentration camps, three indoctrination camps and stuff like that? These are real questions. And it's, again, I think there's a strong corporate push at this time behind traditional renewable energy in the form of solar and wind companies. And I find a lot of dishonest at this point, especially because they pretend like there's gonna be a big green revolution in terms of energy and jobs. It's like, No, you guys are just buying panels from China and installing them. The jobs are an installation and construction, it's like, those are temporary jobs, you get the build out, you get the time you get the jobs from the build out, then it's gone.

Ari Gronich

11:45

So, you know, let's say, I mean, we obviously can't change China's stance on how they treat their employees. And at least it up till now our policies are as such that it is tremendously incentivized to work with China, right? versus other places that have maybe better policies towards their people. So how do we bridge that gap between bringing those jobs back to America, bringing those jobs actually to anywhere that they're going to be installed, the manufacturing should be kind of in the areas in which there'll be installed? So that we're always buying local, right? So even big companies can, you know, think a little differently and do that. But how do we bridge those gaps?

Jason Szeftel

12:43

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you really nailed it, it's going to be more production, where the consumption or the installation happens. That's where things are trending. And the way it works is that China basically flooded the market with solar panels, and did them below cost so no one else can compete to basically cornered the market during the 2010s. That's what happened. They just wiped out the competition. It was not. Again, you don't want to say what's fair, unfair in sort of global economics, it's kind of not how it works. But that's the game they played, and they did very well. So most US solar panel manufacturers are all gone. And what they're relying on now is industrial policy. So they're relying on the Biden administration just like the Trump administration to start, basically, preventing, incentivizing things to make it happen, make them happen in the US subsidizing things, tariffing, different products from abroad, and basically trying to rearrange the global production system we've had since the 1980s. That's kind of what's happening. We see it in semiconductors, we see it in certain solar energy stuff, we see it with certain rare earth minerals. It just goes on and on. It's kind of what we're seeing across the board. COVID really set this, I mean, just set this loose after with the PPE and all of the vaccine problems, mean people in the United States would be freezing out if we didn't have vaccines made in the country. If they were coming from India or China, it would be even worse. So it really gave people a sense of almost like a national security thing for production for the economy. And we're seeing it. I mean, it's almost a bipartisan thing at this point. So we'll see where it goes. But that's where things are happening. We're not really trying to help other countries as much anymore, trying to prevent it from being in China. Number one, trying to build it here. And then we'll figure everything else out later. That's kind of the thought process.

Ari Gronich

14:26

Yeah, well, so my thought process is always How can we plan and work backwards versus, you know, plan from the end result, right. So, in my case, this series I told you about, when in our pre interview, the series of books that I'm writing, tribal living in a modern world is a lot about how do we take technology and marry it with nature, marry it with a natural way of living that does support all the people on the planet and In a way, that's not like the planet isn't killing us because of what we've done to it, right? So how do we marry the modern, the technology, the influx of this revolution that started with the industrial revolution? and bring it back to a sustainable natural flow so that they're kind of together and helping one another versus destroying one another?

Jason Szeftel

15:30

Yeah, that's a big question. I think it's one of the things that really animated the sort of sustainability movement, the more modern one that's more technologically focused since the mid 2000s. It's been a huge question that we need this greater sense with global warming, with climate change, with anything going on in the world. And even with the sort of political conflicts you see everywhere, resource conflicts, water conflicts, that we have to do something. But there is a real question. And a real challenge, just because it's not clear that we can do this for everyone everywhere. what's likely is that the sort of place that could have a sort of marriage of nature and technology is a place like the United States that puts the money into it really invest in it develops a host of new technologies which don't exist, and then is able to sort of transform its society and economy while also keeping it stable, and productive and healthy. Most places on earth cannot do that. And so for China, for example, trying to just transform the Chinese energy system is a massive, massive undertaking. So they use 50% more energy in China than in the United States. And they have all the dirty industries on Earth, right? They do more steel manufacturing, like steel and aluminum preachers like 50% of the entire world, they pull 50% of all the coal in the world out of the ground. Everything. I mean, all these really, really energy intensive, dirty industries, whether it's, you know, minerals processing, or gas, or steel and steel in different smelting procedures. It's just that everything is 30% of world manufacturing. So how do you retool this entire production node in the world to run on new forms of energy? I mean, it's trill again, trillions and trillions of dollars. And it's tough for China to do because they need low costs for everything they have to keep people employed. They can't have dislocated people running out of the factories and started marching through the streets, like you saw on a bit in Hong Kong. I think that it's really tough to see I actually see more countries, not marrying nature and technology in a wholesome way, but sort of heading heading back down in a bad way, not able to get the resources they need, not able to evolve their economy and the way they need not able to sort of bring society forward. At the same time as they're doing all this. It's just extremely difficult. And even in the United States, we don't have the best politically minded, cooperative sort of party system right now. So we'll see how that goes.

Ari Gronich

17:57

I mean, if you were to if you were to like if you were to be doing this, right, but I was Biden, for instance, and you are giving me your, you know, five minutes, so to speak, your your elevator pitch on why I should listen to your consulting, and what I should be doing with the country. As far as this aspect goes, what would you be saying to me?

Jason Szeftel

18:28

I don't want to shirk the question. But I will say that I don't think that the President has nearly as much power as people think

Ari Gronich

18:33

I understand that. And, and here's how, here's where I feel the power lies. The power lies in somebody like Kennedy saying, we're going to the moon, you have a decade to do it. You know, it's just gonna be done. It's like a mandate, right? They say something, and then the world kind of starts doing the things to make that happen. Right. So Biden has the power of a leadership position where he can create a mandate, he can say, this is what we're doing, you know, like a Kennedy would, I don't think we've had anybody since Kennedy, like that. 

Jason Szeftel

19:17

We'll also think our government or federal government's not as competent as it was particularly starting in the 1970s. Its ability to actually execute on programs like that for multi decade or even 5, 6, 10 years. It's just completely almost disappeared. So what we see is some of the biggest revolutions are just privately funded things. So for example, the shale revolution, particularly in Texas, North Dakota, and in Pennsylvania, all these small places, they, it was revolutionary for the US energy system, but it wasn't didn't come through any federal initiatives and actually sort of had to push back against a lot of state initiatives that didn't want fracking and didn't want all this stuff to happen. But it's been probably the biggest energy transformation in 50 years in the United States. So I'm very wary of, I love the idea, I love going to the moon, setting the mission, setting the plan. But even look at NASA since the end of the Cold War, NASA hasn't been able to do anything right now. It's gonna be Elon Musk that goes to the moon with his rockets in Texas.

Ari Gronich

20:15

Now, I understand that. But here's the thing, I guess is the difference. Most people believe that when the government says, Let's do a mandate, that it's the government doing the job, right? You don't realize that it's the private contractors, it's the private citizens, the private companies, the engineers, the geniuses, that are actual human beings, right, that are doing the job that are getting paid. So when they hear something like this will be trillions and trillions of dollars, they don't hear Cha Ching, that means that we're going to be getting paid. That means that our communities are going to have sustainable incomes, and we're going to have a future and we're going to have money to spend and we're going to have things to do all they hear is it's going to cost trillions of dollars. Right? So I guess this is where, yes, I believe that private companies are the answer, private citizens, private people, but I believe that there needs to be some kind of level of incentive that says, You guys got to do this. And you gotta do it now. Because we're not waiting anymore. For your, you know, return on investment, so to speak, we're looking at what's the newest technology? How can we get it out the fastest and most effective, etc.

Jason Szeftel

21:37

Yeah, so I don't want to shirk your question, I'll get back to it and just say, I think that what I would what I would tell them to focus on is, you know, actually try and focus on technology development in certain key areas and stop thinking about technology as just new texting apps, and new video messaging apps and stuff like that. We've really diluted the meaning of the word, technology. And it's really tragic. And some of the consequences. So I'd say, you know, focus on encouraging people to develop new ways to deal with natural disasters. Are there better ways that we can deal with fires? Is there something better than throwing water on it? Right, is there something we could do, you know what I mean, things like that, I think are very important. 

Ari Gronich

22:16

You're in LA, right?

Jason Szeftel

22:17

I am in LA? Yeah, I am familiar with it.

Ari Gronich

22:19

I saw 310 cuz my numbers were 310. And so I used to live through those LA fires, right. And I had an idea once and I brought it to the government. I said, Let's plant some ice plants all alongside the mountains, they grow very well there. They don't need a lot of water, but they hold a lot of water. It's like planting cactus, they'll keep a lot of that area from, you know, from burning, because it'll extinguish the fires, but nobody listened. was kind of interesting. It was like a really easy thing I felt like to do. But you're right. We're not telling people to do that.

Jason Szeftel

23:00

Yeah, and it's a lot of the reason is just the government contracting methods. So let's say you and I had an idea for how to better, you know, fight fires in California, well, we'd go and we'd pitch something to, you know, probably this callfire, it would take, you know, three years for them to get back to us. And then you know, we get a decision, then we'd start we get to work on the project for maybe two, three more years. And it's just, it's this massive, extended timeline to try things out. So I believe they should be more encouraging of a lot more experimentation in agriculture and transportation technologies in electrical and energy technologies. I mean, the places bizarre. I mean, even the right to try, that's, I think that's a very good policy, like let's, you know, people are going to die, they have no other options. We should try things if they want, if they want to pay consent, you know, try things. I think that's a good policy. But it's funny, the place where you see the bizarre small innovation and experimentation is often in the military. The military has things like DARPA, that are invested in trying to push things forward with technology. And a lot of impressive technologies have come out of that. So we need a bit more of that focus. It's just very hard to get it together in government, especially the state governments trying to contract with state governments is not fun. So those procedures, I think a lot of things related to it sounds a bit, you know, buzzworthy, but smart government things that can just running the systems for government on more modern systems would be a really good thing. The reason everything's so bad on a government website is because it took the same thing we said, three, you know, six years ago, seven years ago, they had an idea for the website for unemployment benefits in Florida. And then, you know, crisis hits, and it all collapses because it was like, well, this thing was basically 2010 technology, and we don't live in that and it can't be updated. It's not right. It's not right.

Ari Gronich

24:47

Yeah, you know. That's part of like, in general. My issue with business, with government, with what I see in the world, like, I see the technologies as they come out, you know, like the prototypes and the things that people are working on and they're showing done. And then I see what's out and I go, there's such a gap, it's like a 50 year gap between what is here, and what's developed and could be out. And bridging those together is usually a conversation of money, which to me is like the silliest conversation we could have, right? Money is something we made up, the planet, we didn't make up. You know, we didn't make up the need of money to be people who wanted to innovate or grow or things like that, I just find that by using that money as the excuse not to, we have stunted our personal growth, our financial growth, our systemic growth, and, you know, our technological growth.

Jason Szeftel

26:11

Yeah, the places where you see the most technological growth tend to be places with a big consumer market that you can keep coming back to. So if you look at iPhones, or consumer electronics, you get a lot of innovation, just because every year you can put up something new and you can convince them to buy it. And that's huge, big promise for these technologies is if you just have a government buyer, if you just have something like that you can't get rates of innovation and iteration that you need to really continuously advance them. And so in China, for example, there's a new policy, not new five, six years old, called civil military fusion, where basically the Chinese government realized that they can't develop military technology, as it's as good as a lot of consumer stuff. And so what they're doing is trying to actively take consumer technologies, things like electronics, or little drones, that kids use to take videos or whatever to and bring that into the military, because they've realized that the military timelines are now too long and too slow for the same reason. And the United States has actually the same problem. They tried to have a big military cloud product they bought it from there's a whole brouhaha between Microsoft and Amazon. And they basically just said, you know, we're gonna cancel the contract, even though it's four or five years old, because already the technology is already too old. So there's a real challenge of bringing, we actually see. have to find a way to either give something a consumer market, to let it innovate continuously, right? Or you're in trouble. And so it's, that's the place where you can really see a lot of innovation, it's just hard to get. That's why so many technologies just die on the vine, can't pay the people to keep doing it.

Ari Gronich

27:44

So there was something I saw recently, and it was, I think Samsung had their TVs on a subscription, where you're paying just, you know, a monthly amount, and you get the TV and every couple years or whatever, you get the latest one. So you send them back that one, you get the latest one kind of like Apple does with the iPhones these days. And stuff like that. Would it be with you know, if we have to have a money system, I think that would be a good money system is we have a subscription model instead of a buy for model. And that way, we're encouraging innovation versus encouraging people to have to get rid of their inventory before they can sell anything new.

Jason Szeftel

28:32

Yeah, I mean, a lot of things are moving towards the subscription model. It's pretty crazy. Everything feels like it's a subscription. Now, Netflix is a subscription, your entertainment is a subscription. Even writers are doing subscription stuff on substack. There's a subscription ification of everything. It feels like I think there's a good reason why it gives you reliable recurring revenue in a way that one off purchases, that could be one year four, five, six in between really don't do. And often you just don't need as many as much marketing, customer acquisition can be a lot lower, smaller enough to do as best as much. If you have someone in there with you for years, it's reliable revenue, you can loan you could lend off of it, you can do a lot of cool stuff. So I don't think it's going to replace the money system. But it's becoming a bigger and bigger part of the way services are sold in almost every app and every sort of cool app on the internet or on your Mac or on your iPhone. They want you to subscribe because it gives them the certainty that they'll have money and they'll actually continue to invest in improving the technology or at least keeping it up to date for the newest operating system. There's a lot of apps I'll get on my Mac that are free that once you update to a new operating system. They just never updated either because they don't have any incentive to so the subscriptions are definitely here to stay. Although they're kind of getting out of control. They want you to have a subscription for like boxes for your dog. And like everything.

Ari Gronich

29:56

I'm I'm more thinking like if that was the model we went to for technology, like, you know, whether it be our energy system, we're on subscription models, but they don't update the technology with every month, you know, the way that we're paying for subscription, they keep the technology, kind of they maintain it, but they they're not always updating. So that's where I'm thinking, like, Is there a way I just want ways I want things that we can do something that people if they're listening to this in the background, the audience, you know, they're like, what do I do, I'm passionate about something, and I want to be able to, you know, create a sustainable life, I want to create sustainable living with all the subscriptions people are going broke. Because they don't realize that the $9 here and the $10 there and the $9, there's adding up to $3,000. Right, so I you know, it's like, how do we get to where innovation and sustainability technology, and free flowing ideas is like the norm again, kind of like the Roman era or the Greek, you know, era where people were the Renaissance, where it was all about rebirth and growing, I think we've like hit this stage in our evolution, where it's like, we like we got to a place in the 50s, where we liked it, and we just want to stay there forever. And, and so, how do we get back to that rebirth? mentality? I know, you talked a little bit about the psychology of it.

Jason Szeftel

31:44

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think there's a bit of stasis. And you know, we're all watching Tick tok, and watching videos and all the subscriptions we have are typically little consumer comforts, that let us just keep doing what we're doing, kind of avoid the fact that the rest of the world that we live in, looks exactly like it did in 1970. None of the new physical systems are there, most of LA was built, every home feels like it's a weird, poorly built stucco building from the 70s. They were supposed to go up for like 5, 10 years be replaced and then never get replaced. So yeah, we live, you know, our digital comforts, and digital, little digital consumer electronics really helped us avoid realizing and looking at the fact that the world around us otherwise looks completely old, 50 years old. And you know, in China, it's a bit different, everything is brand new. So there's actually a lot more of a forward looking hungry edge to it, they've seen transformation in their lifetimes in a way that most of us have not. So to get back to it is a real, I mean, it's I think it's like a key key thing we all need to be thinking about. But for stuff, little people, I mean, stuff, little things people can do. That little people, I mean, the challenge with energy is that you often need huge, multi billion dollar investments. So that's not it. But so I mean, if you live in the southwest of the United States, you basically live in one of the best places to have solar energy, you should probably get, I don't want to say should, you can get solar panels on your home, that can be installment payments, and it probably will be a great deal. The panels are really good now. So people who bought solar panels, like 10 years ago, they were paying, they were paying for you to have great solar panels today. You don't I mean, those are outdated, and they're terrible compared to what we have now. And the cost is going down so much. I think you mentioned this earlier, that by 20, 30, solar panels are going to be really, really cheap. And they're going to be at industrial scale at sort of major grid scale stuff, they're gonna be really good. But for consumers, the probably be even better. So that's a great thing to do. I mean, I think Solar City, which is owned by Tesla, Tesla, energy, whatever it's called, now, they integrate batteries and solar panels on your home. And that's a good that's a good combo if you if you want to live in a world where you there's electric cars and solar panels and batteries. And that's I mean, that's a big part of the future. That is advocate the of the most optimistic future advocated by the solar energy cohort of the sort of renewable technology thing. That's something to invest in. I have certain reservations about electric cars, like for example, in China, I don't think China's ever going to be able to run on electric cars, there's, it would need something like four or five times the amount of energy China currently uses, which is more than any country ever, which is 50% more than the United States. And they don't have the energy for that. You would need massive, probably massive, massive amounts of nuclear energy to do that. That's probably the only way. So yeah, I think that's something people should keep in mind running. certain places aren't going to run on electric cars and solar energy. Germany is a great example. They built alot of solar panels in Germany, but they forgot to look up at the sky. And notice that it's overcast all the time. So there's a big installed capacity of solar panels, unfortunately, also old panels, like we said, they said, Germany is subsidized the good panels you can get today. They just, it's just the actual energy generation, the power generation from these panels is very limited. And so Germany actually uses more coal than it did 10 years ago. So those are one of those contradictions that you, you don't get caught in. But again, for people here who live in the southwest, feeling Florida, he lived in the southern part of the United States. So panels ain't a bad idea. And so that's a good one that I would focus on for the energy side of things. Yeah, it's good. The time is there, time is now.

Ari Gronich

35:42

So, you know, you mentioned China could never run unless it was like on nuclear. Unless maybe it was local. You know, local supply, I think, might be a little different. But here's I guess that where I want to go with this question. So we're looking at China, and all of the innovation, all of what they're doing, all the energy, they're consuming the pollution that they're making, the violations that they have on human rights. And we go, all right, we don't really understand their culture much. And so we judge it from our outside perspective and our outside eyes. And so you have a little more of an insider's view on you know what it is to be in China and what it is to be under that culture. So just for the audience who has preconceived notions, which ones are true, which ones not so much. Can you kind of just illuminate on what this thing that we've now known to be? China?

Jason Szeftel

36:57

Yeah, so there's a lot of sort of myths and sort of misconceived notions about China. I'll just try and kind of run through some things that people might find illuminating, to give them a sense of that place. And, yeah, I think one interesting thing people wouldn't realize, and that is so hard for people from the west to understand is that the Chinese Communist Party is not despised as a totalitarian dictatorship. Until the last 10, 15 years, the Chinese Communist Party was actually not in most people's faces. But all that much, it wasn't like authoritarian forcing you to do this or that there was a lot of freedoms on the ground level, because people were, they wanted to encourage private innovation. So back in the 70s, very different story back in the 60s, very different story. 50 very different story. But in the last 50 years, overall, it hasn't been 40 years, it hasn't been up in people's grill all the time, although that's now changing. And so the party is actually thought to be a good force of ease that you can't do polls in China, because that would be dangerous. But in a healthy majority of Chinese people think the Communist Party is overall a good thing. And they support it hard to hard to believe that goes very much against our Western individualist ideas, That's the way it is. So So why, what what MC, is

Ari Gronich

38:18

So why? Is it indoctrination? Is it just history and culture? Is it? What is it that that says to them? And are they allowed to be individuals still, even within the system of control that they're in?

Jason Szeftel

38:32

So there's always a propaganda element in every Chinese state, that the Chinese state has to manage its population. So China has on a broad scale has overall bad land relative to the size of the country, and it has limited capital. So it doesn't have a lot of money, it doesn't have the best land. And so there's labor land and capital and technology, but just thinking about labor, land capital, the primary resource in China is labor. It's always been the population. You if you need a great wall built in the desert, you send millions of people to do it. If they end up as mortar for the stones, well, you have millions more. And that's what you see. You need to build things. You get them sent here, you just send people all over to deal with whatever needs to get done. But the people are also a threat. At the same time. You have a large, large, poor population, there's something like the entire population of the United States, there's like a group that large in poverty in China. It's hard to fathom. And yet the Chinese government and Chinese people are more concerned with one thing probably than anything else. And that's political integrity, its political stability and order. And the thing they're contrasting the communist party with isn't some Western democratic liberal ideal of a individualist democracy, blah, blah, blah. It's just chaos. They see the two options as order, often tyrannical authoritarian and terrible versus chaos, which is much worse. And most of China's history is chaotic, it's chaos. It's not in an integrated state ruling over an integrated people integrated territory. It is warring factious clans, and warlords duking it out all across the country.

Ari Gronich

0:11

Wow. So you're talking about the land like, you know, we have a whole song about how majestic our land is. So I want you to, I want you to explain that in a way that people who have never been there could grasp what that means for the people what that land is like and what it means for the people.

Jason Szeftel

0:30

Sure. So China's big. China's about the size of the United States overall, like the physical territory. But China, something like 66-70% of China is mountainous. And a large part of China is just huge deserts, the whole western and northern parts of China are massive deserts. So when you get down to it, the sort of flat, temperate, arable land, you can farm-on, build cities easily, all of that is really small. It's something like maybe 15% of the entire country, and maybe the size of Colombia, like the state of Colombia and South America, that's very different than the United States. The United States probably has 30% of the country, mountainous and hilly, right, sort of like the Rockies. And you know, Denver and Salt Lake are, and then you have massive flat stretches of land, all the way in between the Rockies and the Appalachian is basically the Appalachian Mountains is basically a giant Valley, it's like a million to a million square miles. It's enormous. And there you have the Mississippi River system, really like a bunch of rivers that are all interconnected, you can float things down, that you can send goods, products, troops, messages, everything down and across these rivers. And overlaid on top of these rivers are some of the best access to some of the best agricultural land on Earth. So you really have a Nexus, not trying to sing America, the beautiful here, but just to give the comparison, the United States does have a very, very, very fortunate set of natural features that are a major reason why this country is wealthy and powerful. It's not imperialism, it really isn't. It's not colonialism, the United States was the largest consumer market, the largest agricultural manufacturer, the largest industrial manufacturer, the largest food produced the largest everything by like the 1880s, within about 100 years after it was formed. And it's been all of that since for over 120 years. And that was before it ever invaded Cuba before it ever did any of that it was after the Civil War. So it wasn't built on the back of slavery. So that's something I want people to keep in mind. It's always good to have a good sense of our country, because otherwise we get caught up in very misguided and dangerous forms of American exceptionalism will think, oh, we're so great, because XYZ maybe, but maybe we'd be just as great if we all spoke Spanish, or if we'd all been Catholic or something. And my read on things is, that's probably true. If you happen to be in this part of North America, you've managed to take it all over. And no one had ever been here, in a sort of industrializing and heavily agricultural manner, like the Native Americans weren't quite like the 1000s of years of Chinese agriculture. It's very different. But in China, you don't have something like that. The Eastern lowlands of China that are basically the core regions of China are the yellow and Yangtze river valleys. This is 90% of the Chinese population lives there. And it is not like the United States. It's not like what we were just talking about, like this great large center heartland or whatever you want to call it of the United States. It's much meaner, it's much more overpopulated. It's crowded one way, think about it. Imagine the United States was mostly mountains. And then on the East Coast, you had a big kind of large East Coast was, you know, you could fit more people there, you had 90% of US population there. But instead of, you know, 300, 200, something million people, you had 1.2 billion people all stuffed there. So you have in China, you basically have the American Midwest. And on top of that, you have the equivalent of New York, and Boston, and Washington and all of it, it's all piled all piled on top of each other. There are people fighting for land, space, air, water, everything. And there are factories and mines and schools and in cities on top of farmland. I mean, this is just the way it is, there's not enough land. And that's really, really important to keep in mind.

Ari Gronich

4:17

Right? And so for people who have belief systems, like everybody should go back to their country or something, right. We're talking about a country, where are they planning on going? Right, when the population gets too much for that place? Are they planning on terraforming some of those mountains? Are they I mean, like, what can they do? once that population is too much for the landmass?

Jason Szeftel

4:52

It's a real question. It is certainly straining the ecological carrying capacity of the land. So many people China's built over 600 major cities that has over 100 major cities with over a million people that all built in the last few decades. And that's an enormous amount of people's products of resources that you need. And to sustain that is even harder, you have to keep feeding it, you have to keep pouring down. So you have to keep building buildings, you have to do all of that. It's just maintaining it is very difficult. But one thing people should remember is that waves of Chinese people have been leaving China for over 800 years. Okay, this has nothing to do again with colonialism. China was not never colonized. Or it was beaten up by Japan in the 20th century, but was not colonized by other European powers before that. And the reason you have waves of Chinese people in Southeast Asia, and why you have Chinese people in the United States, originally in California in the 19th century, is because China is chaotic and unstable. And you actually saw basically wars between the northern equivalent of northern and southern China, and the southern Chinese fled to Southeast Asia. And then they fled to California as well. These are typically people from southern China from the Guangdong Hong Kong sort of region. And it's that instability in China that has led to waves of Chinese people elsewhere in the world. So that's a very important thing to keep in mind. Because Yeah, people are you tell them to go back to their country, but they've left because of instability to call it often to call China a country is not correct. Like that's a new modern nationalist thing started in the 20th century, China was more of a culture and a civilization, ethnic heritage, cultural heritage than it was a single unified country. That's, that's important. But you also asked just the question of, well, what do you do with when there's too many people. So China has been in a war between its geography, nature, this terrible land it's been given, and any and all technologies that can use to help it. So China has enormous plans for everything, right? They're trying to move water from southern China, up to northern China, because northern China is sinking, drying out and getting covered in dust storms. And it's prone to drought and floods. And it's a problem in a lot of ways. So they're trying to do that, they're trying to build a green wall, basically, a Great Green Wall, to block out the expanding Gobi desert is trying to eat up a lot of northern China. So they're trying to do all these things. But there are fundamental limits, it costs a lot of money just to remediate all the pollution, all the, you know, the air and the water pollution. And like we mentioned, just paving over important farmland, all this kind of stuff, just to remediate that is trillions of dollars. So in a lot of ways, China is stuck with a kind of bluets load, it stuck with the development, it managed to get in the 80s,90s,2000,2010s. And it's going to have to make choices make tough choices about what to do afterwards. That's really the best way to think about it. But in China, typically, things devolve into pretty brutal scenarios you run out of, you have to choose between water and electricity to choose between getting fertilizer, and, you know, building military weapons or whatever. And that is, those sort of brutal questions might be coming back pretty soon. So that's what to keep in mind. It's very hard, like we said, like I was saying earlier, to, most places don't have the ability to marry nature and technology in the way that perhaps the US can if it can build a sustainable system. But like I mentioned with energy, even Chinese agriculture is its own disaster, Chinese transportation, a lot of it is just being built to keep people employed, right? Do you need autonomous electric cars, and rail systems to go to every single country, every single city? Wouldn't you just need one or the other? Maybe one of these never gonna do you need also planes and airports and every single one, like you a lot of the basic economics of these things aren't rational. This is a political project, all of this stuff in China, like we said, they worry about political integrity, and chaos. And that's what they're trying to prevent. And we'll see how it goes. But it's a tough, tough problem. 

Ari Gronich

9:10

Seems like a bit of a pressure cooker. Actually. You know, it seems like something's gonna blow.

Jason Szeftel

9:15

I believe so. I believe so. I think that all you need is one the hammer to fall in one area, and it can start a chain reaction, that's what's always happened in Chinese history. So the people don't remember if China is a massive superpower. And it's always been it's, a once in future superpower. And this is just as rebirth into the modern world, which is kind of some of the narrative we've all heard. Really, if that is the case. Why? Why do all of its states always collapse? Every single one has collapsed. Every single Chinese state has collapsed and ended in a massive kerfuffle and bloody struggle. And we need to look at why that's happened. And see if there's anything different today. It's really the question is, What is different today. They could keep China together not? Well, China will continue forever, without any problem, because that's not what's happened. 

Ari Gronich

10:06

So let's take it to a cultural step there in that case. So culturally speaking, what keeps China going? Is the culture that they've developed over the last, however many 1000s of years of doing this behavior of implode, rebuild, implode, rebuild, implode, rebuild, right? So different mentality, different psychology. You know, let's talk about how the psychology of that is manifesting in the scenario versus, say, the psychology of, we're in this together, we can do this. And we just got to figure out and plan the steps and then execute them. Right. So taking it out of that emotional, back and forth, upheaval. Do you think that China's capable at this point of shifting the psychology from ancient to modern?

Jason Szeftel

11:12

No, no, I think that the psychology is the desperate struggle for political integrity and unity. And it's very hard to move away from that. And so the way it works in China, like we were saying earlier, If US has a lot of different pieces, right? There's Texas, there's California, like there's the Northeast, the Northwest, there's Alaska, there's Hawaii, there's many different parts in different cultures all around the country. And that's something we all we always think about Florida is not California, Alabama, is not Minnesota. And this is the same thing in China. So when I'm talking about political integrity, and all of that, what I'm really talking about is northern China, Beijing is in northern China, Beijing actually means northern capital, in Chinese. And northern China is where you have political, military, and political military power. And what has always happened in China is that China is the creation of the Northern warlords, basically, and they conquered the rest of China. And they actually did that. Just as recently as well. That's there's only one time in Chinese history when there hasn't been like a northern power that took over everything else. And that's the culture that matters. That's the culture that is running the show. So southern China, in the southern ports have a very different perspective, Shanghai has a very different perspective, western China, Tibet, shinjang, very different perspective. But the overriding one, the only one that can come to the top, and really set the tone is the one in northern China, because that's the one that can keep things together, or can try to, if you let Hong Kong run China, there's not going to be China very long, there's not going to be any of that. So to have a unified China, you really need this northern power to keep things together and obsessively try and make it work. And usually it fails at some point. But that's the culture that rises to the top. So there's never No, no Chinese leader since Mao has ever been from southern China. They go down on tours to southern China. That's a big moment in Chinese history in the late 70s, early 80s. When and then early 90s, when Deng XIAO PING went to southern China, that was a big moment was it was a symbolic event, because southern and northern China aren't the same even ethnically or visually, a lot of Chinese people know and can tell someone who is from Southern versus northern China, it's, again, these have been not not even just separate countries. I mean, they've been different places that are populated for 1000s of years. Right there. There's a region in China called Sichuan, which has the good food that has its own, you know, old culture that had a culture that went back three over 3000 years, had its own language. And even today, the Sichuanese is like the language they speak there, more people speak that as a first language than German or French. And the, you know, the province of Guangdong in southern China, where Hong Kong is that there's more people there than any country in Europe, except for Russia. So there's just it's a scale question. So this question of like, can you integrate it into a new harmonious sort of cultural and if the Chinese perspective is no, there's way too much diversity, the histories are way too old. And what they did was they they simplified the language they impose written Chinese on everyone, because these languages in China they say they call them dialects. So this is a dialect this a doubt. It's not most languages in China are mutually unintelligible only propaganda calls them a dialect, right? But you have to do that because you want this sense of unity. It is essential. So that's what I would say this up and down this endless up and down, build, collapse, rebuild all that it has a permanent mark. And to move beyond it. That's been the goal since 1949, and Wilson's modern try since 1911, really, and they just have not found a way to do it, and technology and pushing into the future. Pushing as fast as you can. It's kind of like Republicans or Democrats trying to focus on enemies abroad or broader ideals that pushes people forward and can also avoid some of the immediate problems like, well, maybe everyone, the republican party doesn't agree right now on things. Maybe everyone that, you know, the democratic party doesn't quite see eye to eye and in factor, you know, clashing in moments? Well, let's look into the future. Let's just ride this technology wave as far as possible. That's what China's been trying to do.

Ari Gronich

15:30

That sounds like a good thing to do, though. So that's what I like is let's ride technology as far as it can go, until it becomes seamless with the rest of nature and the rest of the world. But, so for Americans who want to do business with China, who are in the business, like, I used to do a lot of manufacturing of gym equipment, we know he had factories in China. So for people who want to do business with China, don't know how safe it is, don't know the processes and all that stuff. Just kind of give a little bit of a what would somebody want to think about? 

Jason Szeftel

16:13

Yeah, so the whole relationship with China is changing right now. It's transforming, there's more conflict, more animus than in hostility that we've seen since relations were normalized, in the 1970s. So we are really looking at a major sea change and what's been happening. So you know, how to think about it. Not to plug but I do if people have specific questions, sort of, you know, if you're in the entertainment industry, you want to see if your content can work, if you manufacture things, you want to see if your products will get stolen and copied right away. Those are sort of things I help address sort of directly, because it can be very specific. But in general, you probably, it depends industry by industry. But in general, I think what you said earlier, is the long term, right move. I think, if you can, you want production maybe in North America. I know that it's very difficult that the challenge of moving out of China is extreme. But the costs are also rising. I think that, you know, maybe you're not going to be able to do massive production runs all across the world, right, you don't need the same scale that you had, if you're just really selling in the United States. If the global supply chain system, global production world we live in changes, maybe you don't need that you can get ahead of the curve. But in general, it's very dicey these days, I mean, energy costs are going up across the Chinese coast. So our labor costs, so prices are higher. So a lot of them, they're eating a lot of those costs. So right now they're keeping people employed, their subsidies, etc. But they're rising, and a lot of people are moving to Southeast Asia. Is Vietnam. If you're, you know, textiles, you can move back to the United States, you can move to Southeast Asia, but does depends on each industry. But we're also seeing more and more party infiltration of operations in China. So just to think about it, just to give you a broad context, the Chinese Communist Party is a 95 million person organization that runs the country, right? So you have all these government agencies, and they're staffed by party officials, it's as if there was one, you know, Democratic Party, there's only one party allowed in this country. And they sort of had a shadow organization in everything, right. In the 1970s. Like I was saying earlier, this was everywhere, you used to get your food from the party leader, the party bureaucrat, the press secretary in your town, you get your housing from him, your business would be, you know, secured by him, etc. That changed when you had, you know, the privatization and entrepreneurial sort of time came, but later, now, we're kind of getting back to some of that. So there are party officials, party cells, party councils, and coming back to everything, multi-tenant buildings will have party officials, major corporations, all our party officials. So a lot of people that have joint ventures with companies in China are realizing that the state companies that they're partnered with, have a lot of party activity going on. And so the party is trying to both claim the glory for rejuvenating China and wants to be back in everyone's face and doesn't want to be behind the scenes as much anymore. Once people see the red armbands, you know what I mean? Here we are, you know, we rebuilt China, it's the national rejuvenation of the Chinese nation. But it's also just getting up into everyone's grill again. And so major tech companies are having, you know, there's party control of their data at this point as well. So I'd be very wary, I think, again, it really depends on the industry, if you're just manufacturing small things, probably not a big deal. Keep doing it wherever cost is lowest, right? I mean, you're trying to have a business. So that's a smart thing to do. If you're sending a lot of data back and forth to China, that's probably gonna be dicer and dicer. But, but yeah, it's again, I think there's so much transformation and change right now, that giving the broader sort of general stuff can be tougher, but the general stuff I'd say is that relations are getting worse with China every year and things are probably gonna keep getting worse. Because the humanitarian crisis in western China, the political conflict with Taiwan, the sort of eradication of a lot of the freedoms and everything that's gone on there for decades, centuries, the conflicts with potential conflict with Taiwan, you know, the militarization of the South China Sea, all this isn't going away. In fact, it's all kind of hitting into a massive nexus of problems. That is allowing the US government to target China more than ever before. We are also seeing more cyber attacks and cyber targeting by Chinese companies than we have ever seen. So how do I be wary of all this? Personally, I'm not going back to China. I don't think I'm welcome anymore. I wouldn't want to have an exit ban. So I come in and never allowed back. But people should be wary of this. I mean, this is not. Yeah. 

Ari Gronich

20:44

So, what's the devastation potential? As we pull back and start manufacturing in the US again? And in doing those local things? Is there a net devastation or a net benefit to like calming the water, so to speak, by taking back some of those jobs? And some of that? I mean, what the prognosis.

Jason Szeftel

21:07

China? Do? You mean, calming the waters? Are there tensions with them?

Ari Gronich

21:11

No, I mean, calming the waters as far as like, they're busy, right? They're busy, busy, busy, busy, they don't stop, they're busy. They're doing all our stuff, all their stuff, you know, all of the rest of the world stuff, as you said, like 50%, of manufacturing and of energy consumption and all these things. They're busy. If we pull back, and we start manufacturing in the US, as the largest probably user of the Chinese, you know, people. What's the prognosis? What's going to happen?

Jason Szeftel

21:49

Well, it's a, it's a dicey thing, the Chinese system is built for exports, it got all the money, most if not all, got a lot of the money, it needed to develop the country through exports, since the 70s, late 70s, and 80s, it just money came in through the ports, they loaned against it, and they built everything in their country. That's the general super simplified story. So that's also where that's one of their most productive and credible industries. And it brings in hard currency and does a lot of things to stabilize the Chinese financial monetary system. But you know, if that goes away, there are deep deep challenges that the state has to face. And a big one is just that, China needs the enormous volumes of global manufacturing, it needs to build not just for China, widgets, just for China, but widgets for everyone. That's how it gets the volume. That's how it gets the profits. That's how it gets the scale. And that's how it keeps the employment levels up. China needs people employed and needs money coming in. And the US pulling back is a major, major threat, because the US is the largest consumer economy in the world. So you can add up the rest of Europe, and you're not going to get the same sort of effect for China. And they need to read. So this has been the whole thing, the last 10 years, people were like, well, China's gonna have to change catches export forever. Japan doesn't just do that Japan's clue that's just exporting all around the world, like it was in the 70s. Things have changed, but China's going to really struggle, I don't think it's, I don't think it's impossible for it to be a consumer economy. Ideally, China would want to start manufacturing for itself, sort of rejigger the economy, have more internal products and services and be able to sort of self-sustain what it's built. But that's for a lot of reasons. That's probably not possible. So this is this question. I mean, this is what makes the Chinese state governments so tense, so nervous and anxious, and defensive. You see that with every all of their diplomats are, you know, getting, you know, in everyone's face and having all this negative commentary, and they're, they're trying to project the image of power to their own people primarily. And, you know, to try and not be seen as weak to not have any, any event that could suggest that the Communist Party is, you know, weak or incompetent, or out of its depth, or illegitimate because they run on getting things done. Like you said, busy, busy, busy, keep doing things that people agree with it. You don't you can't vote on on their policies, but you can, you can see that they're responsive and making things better. And that's what they run on. It's like performance. It's like, well, LeBron James gets rings, right? vote on him, but I don't mind that he, you know, is on the Lakers. So that's kind of what they're going for. They wanted to like, have results, and they don't want things like, you know, a lab leak, or something like that, that would suggest that the party is totally incompetent. So you're not going to find answers to that sort of question in a state where they're worried about those issues.

Ari Gronich

24:42

So with with that, and with all the fear going on, you know, let's just talk about the psychology of the fear of other because obviously, we're experiencing that a lot. The other as far as other technology, other new things, the other as far as race and culture, the other, let's just talk a little bit about that and how we can possibly come to a place where, like you learned about a culture, you have an insight about them and what might be as possible for a solution that they might not see. Because they're blind. They've been in the same, you know, mindset forever, so they don't have your outside mindset. So how can we get to a place where we're teaching more the ideals of the other and the history of the other so that we can not only appreciate and respect it, but then help that transformation go smoother, faster?

Jason Szeftel

25:52

Yeah, you want to have, you want to get the insiders and the outsiders perspective, I think that's a great way. So you want to, you know, you want to have your own outside perspective on China, but also really work to get a look, you know, see through their eyes over the long term. And I think that the idea of multiculturalism, multicultural education, and all of that, when I really got big and things, the 60s in the 70s, there was this impulse behind it, but it's gone wildly astray. We only learn very superficial things about countries, we look at some trinkets and weird, minor aesthetic things in the country and think we're multicultural, we go travel around the world and act like tourists, and think that we're actually learning and getting a handle on these places. I don't think we do. I think that part of the reason we have so much racial conflict, tension, ethnic tension, religious tension everywhere is like we've never actually managed to teach people how these different groups really function and really think and actually get people to acknowledge the actual differences. So that's a major, major, major challenge, and I don't see a system I see we're kind of becoming more hostile and tribalized for all sorts of groups, both within this country and outside the country. So I don't support any of this. I don't think I also think that all the you don't need anti-Chinese sentiment in the United States. A lot of like I said, a lot of people in China fled to the United States from China, originally fled China. You know what I mean, this is not a this is not what people think it is, I guess I would say. And I would also say that we need to find a way to actually acknowledge people's histories, their ethnic heritage is, as well as you know, the American one, we have to find a synthesis of this actually works. It's too much of this as being as having people's identities that are already kind of weak and fragile, being yanked around pulled by all sorts of media and political groups that want them to participate in whatever programs or activate activists or, you know, policies that they're trying to implement. I think that's also very dangerous.

Ari Gronich

27:54

Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm an all believer in activating your vision for a better world. That's kind of the whole thing with create a new tomorrow today, is so that we can activate our vision and so that people can become activists. So I like encouraging activism. What I feel like is, it's really difficult for people to know the truth, so they never know what they're really fighting for or against. Yeah. And that's what concerns me kind of the most is like, I've had conversations with people who have a very staunch position. And then you tell them the truth, and they go, huh, I never knew that, right. And then now their position shifts, and then you have other people who staunch position, and you tell them the truth. And they double down on that staunch opposition, right? So we've got to figure out a balance between those in this, you know, I I like to get both sides of an opinion or all sides of opinions so that I have all things to work with. And then I could develop my own. From that right my own truth. 

Jason Szeftel

29:14

Yeah, I think I think that's really a good way to go about it. So when I think about China, just to use my sort of example, I think the Chinese political system is brutal, totalitarian, awful, merciless, cruel, all of that. But I think Chinese civilization has produced some of the more profound things I've ever seen, never heard about, never learned about. So you really have to keep certain contradictions in your head in a sense, like, if I just left it that and said, China, brutal, terrible, awful, whatever that would please. All sorts of people then make it less complex, but it really would prevent you from getting that inside look at things right prevent you from actually seeing what what does it mean to struggle in a place with so much bad land, difficult enemies all around And actually, you know, build something Nonetheless, for all of its flaws, right? No one can look at modern China and think, Wow, they really screwed up here, right? I mean, they didn't manage to accomplish anything. I mean, I know they clearly built something ridiculous. So I support that. But your question, I really agree, you want people to be activated, and involved, but we sort of, we sort of are putting the cart before the horse a bit, because we're not giving people a strong sense of themselves. And you know, their group affiliations, or whatever it is, before they get activated. So when I was mentioning earlier, it feels like people are just getting pulled around by different media political forces. My sense is that, you know, against the mainstream media, they know people don't have the strongest identity or understanding of things around the world. And they kind of take advantage of that. So I want to give people a better understanding of the world of, of how things work, and what their country is when we talk about what the United States is, and what makes it great or powerful, or wealthy. What, when and what's bad about it, I want to take this perspective to everything because it can give people the context they need to navigate successfully, you know, to a better tomorrow.

Ari Gronich

31:06

Right. So let's get to the US a little bit. The US hasn't been number one in much of anything for about 4 years, right? But we still consider ourselves the greatest country on earth. And at one point, the greatest superpower while we still are a force of nature that way. What is the US identity? you've you've looked into the United States in relationship to China, but also just in the US? You're, you're a history, you know, person. And so if you were to explain to somebody not in the United States, what is the US? What would you say to them in the context of what we've been talking about?

Jason Szeftel

32:05

Yeah, I mean, I'd say the US is very, I mean, I think it's the most powerful country in the world, but it is struggling to find a sense of self and a direction for the future. And a lot of it has been aimless, adrift, listless, misdirected, for decades, and that you can go as far back as you want, you know, at some point, I think a good time to keep in mind with maybe the end of the Cold War, where the US are 1945 to 1991. The US was pretty competent on a lot of things, it was getting a lot of things that it was keeping allies around the world together to, you know, to compete against the Soviet Union bringing people to the moon to build space station's was doing really impressive stuff. I think that since then, it's been a major challenge to even figure out, well, what's an ally of the United States? I think I actually asked people to question these sorts of things. What's an ally? What are we? Who's an ally? What does it mean? What are we trying to do? Right? We have a global military that was built for to compete against something that doesn't exist. And I think that the key for the United States is to define a vision of the future and try to move forward towards it. I think that what you're doing is part of that. I think that what you're talking about with technology, where we've been talking about with technology is a key way that the future is going to be technologically driven. So you have to move much like we were saying China does take ride technology as far as can take you. And obviously there's problems that come with that there's doing having social interaction entirely be on dating apps, have, you know, personal interaction lowered have all sorts of weird trolls on the internet, you know, running everything off, there's all these negative consequences, but you really have to move into the future. And I think it's been very hard for the US, I think you mentioned earlier that there's a sense of stasis. And yes, we will have, we're both adrift, listless, misdirected and also static. And it's a very painful painful thing to feel to experience that you have we feel you probably feel the same way there's so much potential in this country I still feel it but it just seems like it's dissipating out and people aren't investing they're not able to put the time in in the work in or the energy and it's it's tough we need a motivation and we have to we have there's a motivational component we have to move the curve of motivation towards you know, towards putting in more effort more.

Ari Gronich

34:24

Yeah, motivation needs to be moved into action. That's been my biggest thing and motivation is crap. You know, I love that saying motivation is crap. Action is everything. You got to do it. And we're in such a state of trauma. I look into people's eyes when I'm, you know, walking down the street because you can only see their eyes when they're still wearing their masks. And, and people just look worn out, they look done. And you know, like, like, I don't see a whole lot of life in people. All right. So the question is, as we're activating our visions for a better world as we're doing all these things, having it be in a place in a way that it adds to your life, right. And I think that what you were saying is that the information, getting them the information gets that, but also that sense of purpose, that sense of self. So how does the individual right, the American citizen? drive that together? And then the government responds, because we're going to talk citizen up versus government down? 

Jason Szeftel

35:48

Yeah. Well, to sustain the action that you need to really accomplish whatever a major goal is, you really need to have a lot of meaning and purpose behind it. I think you're right. And people need to really pursue things that give them profound meaning and they're willing to work for for a long time. One problem I really see is I feel like a lot of our energy goes into routine politics, like it's the current issue that's on politico.com, or is the next midterm election, or it is the most recent budget or bill proposal, the perspective I've tried to take on China to understand China, you can't look at the last five years, last couple 10 years, you can't look at every little word, the government says you have to look at sort of the broader structural things that guide what's going on. And I really encourage people to take the same perspective on the United States. So one thing that I think might be helpful is that the way I read what's going on in the country right now, people should expect, like when you said, you see everyone just sitting, you know, they look dead and drained, walking around. I think that's true. But I also think that we experienced no back to normal after COVID, I think what we're gonna see most likely, is a period of serious political, economic, social and cultural instability for eight to 10 years, probably at least. And I know that's a really tough thing to hear or to say, but everyone I've talked to guess has a sense that the hammer is about to fall again. I get that sense from a lot of people. And I think that it is true, it's maybe not going to be like another pandemic. Unfortunately, it's not that easy. But they say like, the history doesn't repeat, it rhymes. So something like that. Something different, but it feels just as bad. But yeah, it's a major thing. And our political parties right now are not going to solve this problem. They are struggling to redefine themselves. For a moderator we have Biden who's almost 80 years old, and doesn't clearly doesn't represent a lot of where the real energy is, in the American left. Then you have on the Republican side, on the right, you have Trump who really wants to kind of try to stay in the limelight. He doesn't want to give new people breathing space to maybe integrate some of the changes that seems he's caused on the right and so you don't have political you have rearranging Coalition's among the political parties right now. And it's not a time to invest all of your energy in politics, it's going to burn you out. I'm not saying to not invest in not believe in politics, that's very important for people. But there's other things that we're talking about: technology, how things come from the private sector, how things come from communicating, and then doing things that are what you really need to do. It's not just investing in hopeful political change, I think we're, you know, we're going to be in a period where there's gonna be a lot of recurring crises. And what the government's going to do is respond to crises, like we saw more government action when the COVID hit, and we saw 10 years before, and we're going to see a government governing by crisis for many years to come. So if we just accept that, then we get a sense of like, Okay, well, we got to put our energies elsewhere and see how we can marry this, how marry this crisis down, and maybe human action US citizen action up, if that makes sense.

Ari Gronich

38:56

Absolutely. We got to manage the crisis down citizen action up but also maintaining that level of communication, I guess, between the two. So Buckminster Fuller, one of my, you know, heroes, I guess, in life mentors, said, you know, don't fight the system as it is build something next to it, that's better, and people will. Pretty much that's like the basic of what he was saying it's a paraphrase. But that idea kind of goes along with my saying is, we made this shit up, we could do better. And the idea around all of it is, all of this is a figment of our imagination. Everything that we see, zoom in front of me, everything that's in front of us that sometimes didn't exist and was created by us in our imagination. And so we can create and we can imagine differently. So let's imagine differently for a second, right? If you could just go into your imagination and create the world as you would like it, create the China as you would like it, as you'd like to see it create the United States as you'd like to see it, or just in general, but take a couple of minutes to just go in your imagination and say, What would I like to create? What would I like it to look like?

Jason Szeftel

0:43

Yeah, I mean, I would like for the United States first. I mean, I would like the information technologies that we're developing to be widely accessible, I'd like learning to be easily accessible, I would like the barriers to action into entry into different markets to be very low. I'd like people to be able to create podcasts, create audio, video content, to communicate, share ideas, develop knowledge very easily. I'd like the learning that's sort of contained in universities, and more and more cloistered and inaccessible, to be broadly distributed. I would like a lot of, you know, people interdisciplinary sort of teams of people working on very hard problems. I would like people, I would like our imaginative entertainment to be pushing towards a more interesting place, I wouldn't, I don't want a world of endless sequels, sequels of comic books from the 40s. I think all of that is important. I think I'd like to see a world where these technologies are improving people's lives in an immediate way. And they're starting to pile on top of each other, where you're like, oh, wow, we've, we now have electric boats, and we've improved the whole Mississippi River, we can do really cheap transportation. And well, now let's do this, oh, let's add this on top of it. And I would like this sort of sense of increase, I mean, from an economic thing, it's like, I'd like the sense of increasing prosperity to sort of return, because it really pushes greater levels of action, and inspiration. And I think a lot of people, particularly the millennials, and younger, there's the sense of, well, I'm just gonna post some images, you know, some have some funny videos, because everything's terrible, and no one's gonna have money and things are getting worse. That I think is super dangerous. And yeah, I think a world where there's real things being built in the physical world, that are new, that are different, that are impressive, that are inspiring, very important, I think, adding these new digital technologies, and making them less addictive, and less compulsive, and more, you know, broadly beneficial to be awesome. And then trying to marry places where the physical and the digital world could come together in new ways to that enhances human flourishing, right, that would enhance human flourishing that would give us augmented reality that instead of showing us ads everywhere, would let me communicate with you know, full full body to body person to person, we got a digital virtual podcast that everyone could see every people can even join in, like, as an audience, right? I think anything like that is awesome. And that's a feature that I think is cool. I think that there's something very true like our future. We only imagine a future that's better if there's new, cool, more advanced technology, it seems like that's built into modernism, to the industrial world, to the world we've had since you know, in the last 500 years. So I don't believe in sort of ditching technology. And going back to Arcadia, I don't think that's going to inspire anything. So that's something I look for. I mean, I also I'll be honest, I don't believe in the end of political conflict. And I believe in the end of political violence, but not the end of the political back and forth, right. Yeah, conflict is necessary, the opposition is good. I mean, people don't know. But in the 19th century, Americans were proud of how virulent their political conflicts were, they would love to have just gangs of people going outside of polling stations and duking it out to show how much they cared about their cause. Right. People thought that was a sign of, I don't know of a lively and invested sort of political system. So we obviously have different idea. Now it seems Oh, so uncivilized and barbaric. And we're also should be beyond this now. But maybe not. Maybe we're not as you know, maybe a little bit more medieval than we think. And maybe it's not that bad obviously problems but. 

Ari Gronich

4:30

You know, our biology doesn't necessarily evolve at the same speed as what we consider our maturity right. 

Jason Szeftel

We're stuck with I'd like a world we also don't try and ditch our biology as much as we tried to understand it and bring it with us into the world. Right. That makes sense.

Ari Gronich

4:53

Absolutely. I've been a studier of humans, you know from the inner to outer the physical body to the emotional body, the spiritual body that's been my field of inquiry for most of my life, and there's always going to be conflict, right? The idea is there progress? Or is there stagnation in the conflict? And I'll give you an example. I remember, I was part of a group that had been around since the 60s, this is in the early 2000s, when I first moved to LA. And it was based on old Marx groups out of San Francisco. And I remember after about two or three years of going there, every single Monday, I would go, Okay, I just heard the same conversation between the same people. As I heard two years ago, the same problems, the same issues that they had with you know, it's like the same conversation and I'm like, these people aren't moving, I gotta go. Because I can't, it's like, I have my own personal discomfort, I have problems, watching things stagnate. it's still not grow, not advanced, not move forward to their next evolution, right. And what it feels like to me is that we have that stagnation. This is like, it's like we're in the boiling pot or the pressure cooker. So you can't see the steam yet. You can't see the violent roar of the boil. But it's just the pressure cooker is there. And, yeah, I want to be able to let off the steam and move forward with eating that food, and then making a new meal, right, versus just letting it steam until there's nothing left.

Jason Szeftel

6:58

Yeah, the idea that we're all stuck in the same meetings, we're all go, and we're just having the same conversation about the same problems and nothing moves toward I think that's pretty accurate, man, if we look at it at the political level, we all seem to be having the same dead political conversations, whether it's about abortion, or other rights, or racial justice, it seems like a continuation of the same thing. So I think to add to our imagining of a better world, I think we should maybe consider that the famous isms of the 20th century 19th century, the communism, the socialism, capitalism's all of these, maybe the like, do we think that the best thinking on these subjects is in the future? Or that it's already happened? Right? Are we still going to get a lot of mileage out of talking about them? And the way we've talked about them using the ideas? We've talked about them? I think not. And I think that we're going to need actual new ideas. So one thing I think is very important is pulling ourselves out of the media discourse that we see on a day to day basis is not meant to move a sport, it's meant to make every issue we see our personally emotionally invested in an issue we're personally and emotionally invested in. And I think that's very dangerous when there's a million endless things to be personally and emotionally invested in. And you really have to self direct where you're going to go. And I just want new new ideas and new conversations. So like you said, for the frog to jump out of the pressure cooker, not just steam to death, and just start hopping along to new places, we really need that. And I think the great thing about podcasts, the great thing about this world is that we can actually have discussions, they don't have to fit the same formula. So if you just go on to cable news, or you go into even just a talk show, or someone's just doing their bit over and over again, you can't see new ideas and new thoughts, new communication happen in real time. And we need that. I mean, I think it's so stimulating, like when you hear like, well, I've never heard that. Never heard that talked about ever heard him talk anything about that in that way. It's like, it's stunning, because it's so rare in the sense that because it is rare because we're not it's not we're not allowed to see it. When you go to university, you are supposed to be exposed to all these new ideas. You just hear all that's where all the bad crusty ideas come from now. So it's a real challenge. I think a lot of people are starving for this sort of stuff.

Ari Gronich

9:24

Yeah. This is why I go back to that Roman Greek era where you know, the Renaissance where you had the great thinkers where the culture was revered for their thinking for their study for their art for their creativity for their imagination, instead of their production. And that's like a big difference. Like, do we need this much production? Or can we slow down? Can we create, can we think deeper? Will we get further faster, I always tell this To my patients and clients, you'll get there faster, the slower you go, will we get there faster if we slow down and take a minute to actually think and figure out what we want. And one of the things that I have is I want people to stop gathering to complain and start collaborating to succeed. And, and so that's, that's where this shows about. And I'm very glad to have you on and talk about these things that aren't really ever talked about. How can people get a hold of you? If they'd like to learn more work more with you?

Jason Szeftel

10:39

Sure, yeah, you can. There's my email [email protected]. If you want to contact me there, I'm on Twitter at Jason Szeftel. I have a podcast called the China unraveled podcast, there's currently 11 episodes, they're kind of deep dives in different things about China. I'm doing one more that's going to be about the Communist Party. Just about what what is it? Like? what actually is it? How does it function? Where's it going? What does it mean? And then I'm going to change the format, make it more interactive, put a lot more content out for people, I think it'll be really cool. There's also a YouTube channel where I do some live streams and probably some questions and answers now I'm getting more of them. And I think there's that and yeah, I also have a website where there's certain essays, other stuff I've done up there. It's also just www. jasonszeftel.com. Last thing people might be interested in just, I realize what we kinda need is not so much experts telling you how things are but someone trying to give you the framework to figure it out for yourself. So later this year I'm gonna be doing probably a free course that's going to explain some of these principles about different countries, how to think about them, how to build up your understanding about yourself, I mean your ethnic heritage from where you happen to be, your country, wherever you're from and then all the weird political conflicts we see around the world and where things are headed. So that will be kinda cool, people interested can message me or learn more.

Ari Gronich

That’ll be really cool. I'd be interested. 

Jason Szeftel

Yeah. definitely send it to you. It be really fun. 

Ari Gronich

Awesome. Well Thank you so much for being here. This has been another great episode of Create a New Tomorrow where we are creating a new tomorrow today and activating our vision for a better world. We could look at all these things we were learning and hearing and discuss it and try to figure out where we fit in this mix of activating our vision for this better world. So thank you so much for being here Jason, I really appreciate it. 

Jason Szeftel

Thanks Ari, It was a lot of fun. 

Ari Gronich

Awesome. See you next time. 

Jason Szeftel

Yeah. See you next time. 

Optimal Health Strategist Gunther Mueller has developed what he calls the 'Magnetic Mind Method." This means he helps people tap into our subconscious to create and manifest the life we've always wanted.

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Ari Gronich

0:14

Welcome back to another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I am your host Ari Gronich today with me is Gunther Mueller. And Gunther is a certified magnetic mind coach now, you know, I'm gonna let him explain that but 30 years of successfully being an entrepreneur, optimal health strategist, you have, you know, you have three kids alongside all the work that you've done, but you've actually taken and builds a business in three years to $20 million in the anti-aging, I believe, field, founded another company, you've bought and sold several companies. So today, we're going to talk a lot about not just the health and wellness, not just the mindset, but also kind of the deep and down and dirty parts of business a little bit. And I'm going to kind of take you on a journey today audience that hopefully will lead you into a place where you could go, Oh, yeah, I got this. And I can move ahead tomorrow, creating my new tomorrow, today. So anyway, Gunther, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Gunther Mueller

1:24

Hey, Ari, thank you so much for having me on, create a new tomorrow. It's amazing to be here because the title of your show is completely in alignment with the information I'm passionate about sharing today. And hopefully the audience gets a lot out of this today. So a little bit about me and I grew up middle class in New York City, bolted out of there in 1984 to go skiing in Colorado and go to school out there because scheme was my thing and need to go ski the bigger mountains but you know, did the thing that you were supposed to do get good grades, go to college, you know, do that whole rigamarole thing. And then I became a professional ski bum for four years after college. So I lived in Vail, lived in a steamboat for a while and commercial fish in Alaska, worked on the Valdez oil spill. If anybody remembers what that was, I was in Prince William Sound for about 60 days, moving people around and equipment and things like that. And then I started my sales career basically in the 90s, selling meat and seafood door to door because I had experience in the seafood industry. You know, I knew what good stuff was. I built about 3000 customers in the Colorado mountainous region. This is the days before Sam's Club and before you know, Costco and all that.

Ari Gronich

2:41

So I just want to say this. So when I was 17 and a half 18. And I'm just finishing up school, high school and rural Oregon. Right? Yeah, I was selling meat and seafood door to door in Oregon on the back of a truck with a freezer on the back of a truck just like a regular big old freezer, laying in the bed of a truck. And so. 

Gunther Mueller

3:14

Hey I did it for 10 years. And I loved it because I got to wear shorts and a golf shirt every day. And I had great customers all over the place and loved it. And then I turned it into an online company in 1998 and then sold that company to one of my suppliers. And then I got into the restaurant business for 14 years. I had about four restaurants that I managed and so food was kinda in my blood food distribution. I work for a we'll start up coffee roaster and then I created America's freshest coffee for the Schwann food company for a while. I went to go to the corporate gig as a regional vice president for them managed a million square mile territory did really well. But the corporate world was not of my liking or choosing. So I you know, get this entrepreneurial blood in my in my veins. And I think I got that from my mom, she know how to sell. She's a travel agent for 50 years, and just knew how to get people to go great places, right. And so then after that I've been in the solar industry did really well used to sell $4 million a month worth of solar panels. And then from solar. I got into the medical industry, which I've been in for over 10 years now. And that's where I created that company and about three years doing about 20 million a year and it was really changing the paradigm of medicine with your average ob-gyn and family practice doctor to optimize hormones and optimize nutrition instead of being so pharmaceutically based. I mean it was really a quantum shift in medicine for a lot of people I was really specialized in something called pellet therapy, which was getting hormones actually inserted into the body and it's you know, it's everywhere now, but when I did it 10 years ago, nobody knew what a pellet was. It was, so I was kind of one of the spear hitters of that therapy in the United States.

Ari Gronich

5:06

Very cool. So nowadays, you know, you're not doing that exactly. You're, you're doing this thing called the magnetic mind. Right, coach. Now, I want to get into this a little bit. So how did you get started working with mind? How did mindset play a role in your sales? So I'm kind of doing a multi question here. So how did mindset play a role in your sales? How did you get into mindset? I know for a friend of mine, oh, he was with Xerox for a while, and they had Zig Ziglar, and all these sales training. So just kind of that background. And then what made that turn into what you're doing now? And how do you see this as kind of that next evolution? 

Gunther Mueller

5:54

Yeah, great question Ari, I love answering it. So what happened was in those days of selling meat and seafood, like I was always a true seeker, even from being a little kid, you know, I used to go walk by a church and think, oh, God lives there. You know what I mean? And but how does that all work out? What's the reality of the universe? Basically, I want to know how things work, right? And nobody really was able to answer it for me. And so in my days of selling meat and seafood door to door, my vehicle was my university, I listened to not the radio or pop music or anything, I listened to the greats like Zig Ziglar. You know, one of my favorite quotes from Zig Ziglar is you can have anything in life if you help enough other people get what they want. You know, and he was a great guy. And, you know, the Brian Tracy's of the world, the Tony Robbins of the world. Look, I what I'm here to share today, I did not create, right, I stand on the shoulders of giants, okay, who have investigated every aspect of personal development, human consciousness, you know, the whole quantum physical research over the last 40 years, there's so much science behind understanding the power that we have in our mind. But it all started with reading, thinking Grow Rich, it was one of the first books and it's the quintessential text, you know, in, let's call it getting what you want in life, or, you know, creating a new tomorrow, like, how do you do it, you know, you're living your life, and you want something different, you want something better. And we're gonna talk about that a little bit later. But you want something different, you want something better, there's a difference between the two ideas on so I started doing that one book after another one cassette tape after another really dating myself there, right? cassette tapes was the thing. And then the DVDs, and I used to drive 100, 200 miles a day. So all that education, all that content, all of that listening to a different way to think about things. And that kind of got embedded in my cellular structure from all those years of doing that. And today, I think the magnetic mind method is really a revolution in the personal development space. Because I'm at the place today to tell everyone that look, you're not broken. There's nothing for you to fix. And a lot of the history of the personal development movement has always been going back, to fix yourself to do something to get something right, something's broken inside of your personality, or something's broken in your being, and you have to fix it first in order to get what you want. I'm here today to tell everyone that we look we need to back out of the problem-solving reality and move into the creator stance. And the creator stances that power position. It's like, we need to remember who we truly are that we are connected to an infinite field of possibilities. And when we become consciously creative, we can create whatever situation reality manifest anything that we want. And this is backed up by science.

Ari Gronich

8:54

So I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back a step. I'm gonna ask you a question you may not have heard before. So I started doing asked when I was eight, life spring, landmark forum, I mean, Cyworld, MIT. I've done so many of these self-improvement movement, workshops and programs and weekends and events and things. What I watch, what I observe, is about 90 so odd percent of the people go there are motivated for about two weeks to a month, and then it dies down. 5% start following the practices that they hear and maybe last a year or two or three until some trauma, gets them out of it. And then there's about 4%, right, that really buy in and get the information and then about 1% or so. This is being this is just my statistics and my, my, what I've watched that actually like live, the information that they've been taught. So here's my question to you. You have done all of these things. And you've taken it. And you've actually become I don't know which percentage but one of the 10, let's say, part of that 10% of the people, right? What makes you have that ability versus say, somebody else? What do you think is the difference between what you were able to do with the information and technology and experiences that you received? That you think the 90% of people who don't ever shift haven't gotten? What do you think that break is that delineation?

Gunther Mueller

10:55

The break is truly listening to your own voice inside your head, okay, because especially today in the era of social media, we are so enamored or concerned with what other people think. I mean, it's getting to the point of ridiculousness, where our self-esteem if we don't look out for it is really coming from what other people do, do they like us, do they share us, do they do this kind of thing, right? And so back that when you asked me that question, the first thing that pops up in my mind is, I have had the ability to listen to my own voice. Now, I'm not saying that everything that I've done has been successful. Look, the path to success is laced with failure. And it's in failure, that you learn the most important lessons, if you had nothing but success in life, you would not be very seasoned, you would not be very skilled, you would not be very proficient in anything. It's through failure, it's through challenge. And this is really the human experience. A lot of people will say, look, I'd like to have a life with just no problems. I'm telling you, you'd be bored out of your mind, if you had no problems, okay? If there were no challenges, no problems, nothing to deal with in life, you would be bored out of your skull. That's just not why we're here as human beings, we're going to have this human experience. Now the beautiful place to be is to be consciously creative to kind of be an observer of what's going on, you know, an airplane at 30. 40,000 feet can see the landscape, right. And when you have that observer mentality, but this takes some practice, this takes some training, right? They don't teach it in school, they don't teach it in college, most of your parents don't teach it to their kids. Unless you become a hungry seeker to a degree and find this out for yourself and your percentages, I agree with so many people get information, they get knowledge. But look, the power is in the knowledge applied. You can go course after course, book after book, seminar, after seminar, do all these retreats, do all kinds of thing, like you said, you feel good for about a month. And then you just forget because you have not applied. And so then the second piece, listening to your own inner voice, because look, you know what if your desires are, let's call it God's plan for your life. What if those desires, What if those things that voice that's trying to speak to you is the directional signal in your life, and you keep ignoring it, you don't listen to it, you never take any time, you've got noise blaring at you all the time, and you never listen to the little voice that's inside and then trusted enough to follow it and not worry so much about what others may think of you. Correct? That's one of the key points right there.

Ari Gronich

13:51

I'm pondering that because there's definitely a level of truth to I think that people go home after getting motivated. And then, you know, somebody says, Well, that wasn't probably what you know, like, or that's not going to work or that's not you know, that you get excited about what you're doing. So I can understand that. I think it goes a little deeper into the depths of the psyche, though. So that concept that you've stated of worrying about what other people think of you, right? goes deeper. So let's drop down into a deeper level of that.

Gunther Mueller

14:33

Love it. So to go deeper is that we all have some self-sabotaging identities that we have acquired through this, let's call it the life stream of this life. And it really is impactful from like zero to seven years old, you know, the data and the science tells us that that's when we just really have an open mind. And we are trying to figure out how it is here. We're trying to figure out You know how to get love. We're trying to figure out how to get nourishment. We're trying to figure out how to get a safe place to sleep. We're trying to figure out how to get what we want, when we're in that stage of development. And so we make certain decisions about life about how it is here. That's all it is. It's just we're trying to figure out what's it like here? And how do I survive. And so if you have abuse, or if you have trauma, or you have some episodes in your life that are unpleasing, the human reality is that we avoid pain. And we move to pleasure. But we avoid pain, a hell of a lot more than we move to pleasure. So what the reality is, is mediocrity becomes okay. Because it's not painful, right? It's just tight, I'm not in excruciating pain. I'm not in a, you know, ecstasy or pleasure. So I am okay with mediocrity. And the part of our mind, we have the conscious mind, the subconscious mind, and what I'm going to introduce to you is the superconscious mind, and there's different names for that, but we like to call it the superconscious. In the subconscious programming, we have put things in there to prevent pain or to keep us safe. And the job of the egoic mind that conscious mind is to maintain the status quo. The conscious mind does not like change, because it knows how to navigate what is successfully. Right. And so some of the sabotaging identities that we pick up through a lifetime of experience, is things like I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I'm not capable, meaning I don't know enough, I'm not. This is an example of someone that never gets out of school. And they continually go for the next degree and the next degree in the next degree, right? I'm not, I'm just not capable of any one more thing. And then I'll be okay. I'm insignificant, I'm small, I'm not big enough, right, I'm insignificant, I'm not perfect. Many of us have this perfectionist stream in our mind can't do that, till I perfect this, this has to be just absolutely perfect before I get what I want. And then another big one is I don't belong; this is what we just talked about is this belonging. And it's okay to belong, it's okay to have a great tribe and a cool group of people, but you still have to be you. And so in light of the probably the top six self-sabotaging identities, and everybody has one or two of them, or all six of them in different degrees that we've incorporated into our subconscious program. And I want, I want you to be thinking about the subconscious like Windows 10 on your computer, okay, when you turn on your computer, Windows 10, boots up, the thing just runs, you don't know how it's running, you don't know the code, you don't know anything like every once in a while an update gets sent to Windows NT update, and you restart. And now the program is different than it was before. So we have to do the same thing to our subconscious program, because it's running completely unconsciously. And we put things in there to keep us safe. So when we when I say we need to step out of the problem solving reality, and take the creator stance, most of the audience is saying probably what does he mean by that? Right? What do you mean by a creative stance? Let me give you four examples of what I'm going to call true choices. And…

Ari Gronich

18:16

First let's go through what problem solving is. Right? And then we'll go into that because we've gone through an automatic response system, which is your conscience, right.

Gunther Mueller

18:31

So problem solving is what we've always been trained to do. We want what we want. So how do we get what we want? So the problem is to figure out a way to get what we want, and we do it consciously.

Ari Gronich

18:45

So you're saying that the problem is wanting something that we don't have?

Gunther Mueller

18:51

Yeah, but that's not the problem. Your desire, your desire is totally fine. You can desire and want whatever you want. That's not the wrong part. The part is that we've been trained to figure out in our conscious mind, how to solve the problem of not having it. Right. One having it is not the problem. It's the way we go about getting it anything comes the problem. So to think about goal setting, right? We've been taught to set SMART goals, and you got to have a date on it. You got to be clear about what you want. And then there's 5, 6, 10 steps or whatever to get what you want. And those things have to happen by a certain date. So when you do a SMART goal, you have in your own conscious mind figured out how it needs to happen. You have allowed no space for the field of infinite possibilities to provide the solution to you in some let's call it magical way. Okay, so you've spent your conscious energy your mind solving the problem. Let's take the idea of abundance, financial abundance. Right. Let's create a new tomorrow. And my two choices, I want to have the experience of having more than enough. I just want this experience of financial abundance and abundance in all aspects of my life. That's my true choice. I just always want to be in the experience of having more than enough. Well, how do I do that? Being in the entrepreneurial world, I deal with a lot of entrepreneurs that have decided or chosen that they need a big successful business in order to have that. And I always have to put the brakes on a little bit and say, Look, the business may not be the true choice. What your true choice is, is you want to have the experience of abundance. Having a successful business made give you the experience of massive struggle, okay, if you don't start a business, having the end in mind, you will get to a completed business that potentially you might hate it, you might not want, it may dominate your life. I mean, how many business owners are there where the business owns them? They don't own the business. Right? So be careful what you ask for Be careful what you wish for. Because if you do it in that problem-solving thing, you're looking at it from a field of limited possibilities. And when I say step out of the problem-solving thing, it's focusing on what you want, not on how it's going to show up, not on how it's going to manifest not on the how to how truly is up to the infinite field and the superconscious. Because look, abundance could happen by finding $100 million in a suitcase on the street. You could find it floating in the ocean, you want. And when we talk about infinite possibilities, I mean, infinite possibilities, whatever your imagination could imagine, and how abundance could show up for you. It's possible. But our conscious mind rationally goes in and say, Well, if you have these sabotaging identities, they're well, I'm not worthy of that that's never gonna happen to me, or I'm not good enough. That can never happen to me or I don't have enough knowledge. I don't have this. I'm insignificant, too small. I would never find that suitcase. Like, I'm just not lucky. You know what I mean? Like I do, I've walked right by the suitcase, and I'd miss it. And I would never find it right. So the programming and the tape that's running in that subconscious mind really rules the day. And so did I answer your question about what I mean by problem solving?

Ari Gronich

22:30

Yes. And I just want to kind of get into what I heard was Basic Law of Attraction, right? So going to the experience that you want to experience, you know, whether it's visioning and feeling all the feelings of the perfect day or all, you know, those kinds of things. So that's cool. Because obviously, I want to experience the abundance of life fully, never needing or wanting anything, just everything is available at all times. Right. Now, the key thing that I believe was missing from the law of attraction was the step of action. Now, within what you just said, the confines of what you said is, we're not doing the SMART goal where we're creating the necessary actions from a problem solving point of view, we're going into the infinite. How does one get to the action side from that place?

Gunther Mueller

23:31

So that's the fifth step in the five-step magnetic mind method. So it's the last thing we do? And we asked the question, okay, what is the next obvious action? And that you're right, that's where the secret, you know, great shows and opening the mind to a lot of possibilities and the power of the mind. And why I always like to say is the law of attraction, the secret is trying to solve the problem from the conscious mind. So this is where affirmation is. And I'm not saying they're wrong. And I'm not saying they don't work. They just take time. And they take that discipline, as you said in the beginning, right? People feel great for a month and they do it, and then it Peters off. Why is that? Because they don't see instantaneous results. Which is another concept I just want to throw in here as a seasoning real quick is the idea of as soon as possible. You see when you use a SMART goal, and you put a date on it, and the date goes by and it didn't happen. What most people do. Give up, or quit. Oh, well, didn't happen. I guess goal setting must not be for me. Goal setting doesn't work for me. Right? I tried, it doesn't work. So take any of the great personalities that we look to an Elan musk or you know, Prince or Madonna or you know, any of these celebrity type people that we look at. You think they have ever had to pick themselves up and try again, and try again, and keep going. Keep going for what they loved. Kept going like you look at Richard Branson, right? Just the other day he got into space. I mean, how long is that dream been manifesting, for him, of putting together all the engineers and you know, the concept laced with failure. And he's does other things and he's failed just as much as he succeeded in his life, maybe even failed a little bit more than he's succeeded, right. Way more. And he is not a perfect personality, right? If you got to know any of these people, they are not perfect beings in every aspect of their life, there is not, but they went after what they love to do, they went after that desire and focused on nothing else, you know, taken Oprah Winfrey or something like that, you know, built her media empire, she focused on what she loved, and she had perfect human, the perfect individual of No. And that's where this whole idea of perfection and all that comes in these things, we just have to let go. Right. That you have to let these things go. And there's a process to doing that. But when we try to solve the problem from the conscious mind, we're bumping into that subconscious programming. And what I'm going to share with you is how we go from the superconscious side, we just send an update to the subconscious, we do that with something called recode. Where we go in, we send an update, and we don't need to know what the problem was, we don't need to know what created the problem. We don't need to know if it was mommy or daddy or a teacher or some other situation going on. Right?

Ari Gronich

26:27

So this sounds very different than, say, a bug fix for a software update, where when you go through the update, now all of a sudden, all the programs start acting wonky, you know, and then you get the blue screen of death. So we don't want to have the blue screen of death with our with our upgrades, right? We want to have the bugs, you know, eliminated. So how do we do the difference between those two, right? How do we get the upgrade to be smooth?

Gunther Mueller

26:59

We do that because you're super conscious self, this highest version of yourself that is connected to the field, the infinite field and a great book to read on the field as Lynne McTaggart book just called the field. So much research has been done. We as human individuations are all part of this field, whether you're conscious of it or not. Okay, you're connected. And we are all connected. And if you look into the science, you look at all the experiments that have happened, we've proven this the field exists. So we're just going to take that as a given for the moment. If you don't believe me, you don't trust me, do your own research, dig in, right? got the field. And so we're connected into the field. So when you go to the superconscious level superconscious already knows what's happened in the past superconscious already knows all the connections knows all the dynamics. And when we do read code, we're basically asking for what we want. We say superconscious do you see the desire? Do you see the true choice? Do you see these two choices of experiencing infinite abundance? And when you connect into the field superconscious will respond usually in Yes, no answers. That's why you always ask questions in the yes and no type field, right? And, yeah, I see it. And then we go through a process of creating a structural tension, where the tension because the mind likes to resolve tension. And it likes to do it in a way that it's the path of least resistance. And so resistance is really the thing that keeps us from having what we want. And it is the identity structure that is congruent with the current reality. So Principle number one really is we have to take responsibility for the way it is now. And that's probably a big stepping stone that many people may have to get over. And that you I want to say this, you know, I say I'm gonna teach you how to become superconscious The truth is you already are. And you've already created everything that you're experiencing right now. So you are already a superconscious great, and now you just created some stuff that you might not like.

Ari Gronich

29:06

I want to go back a little bit so you had said something regarding I just had it in my head a second ago. It was I love that I can edit these videos. It's so nice. Alright, keep going and I'll get back to it.

Gunther Mueller

29:32

So we were on this track. Now I lost the track while we were talking about

Ari Gronich

29:38

Superconscious. Talking about superconscious going from above. Oh, I know what it was. So resistance. So I have a little bit different take on the resistance. Sustained resistance is what stops you. spurts of resistance are what drive you forward. And I'll tell you what I mean by that is the resistance in a lobster shell is what makes them want to go get another show. Right? It's that uncomfortable place that launches them into that next place. And so that's where I just want to, I want to delineate, at least for me, if thing is sustained resistance, if you let the resistance go, if you never change the shell, and you just keep building the resistance, yes, that is going to stop change. For me, the resistance is the signal that says change is needed now. And let's do that.

Gunther Mueller

30:32

So I would equate that piece that you're saying that that is the true choice. That is the desire when you get to that place. And you've been, let's say, living this Groundhog Day reality, because there's only three places we can be, we can be stuck. We can be what we call oscillating, oscillating feels like three steps forward, two steps back one step forward, one step back, right, we're oscillating all we can be in a flow state flows, where we turn thoughts into things, and anybody that's done any high level athletics or anything like that are seeing the interviews with top athletes, they get into the zone. And they can make that three-point shot because they've done it a million times before and they're just in that zone, it just Swish, right? That's the zone feeling. And we can do that in our lives where we just turn thoughts desires into things. And I want to touch on this real quick. Well, how does that happen? As manifestation happened? The idea is, is that you're actually collapsing a part of the field into the present moment experience. So of the field of infinite possibilities, we're focusing on one possibility, with consistency. And the field actually collapses into the present moment. This is manifestation, this is how it happens. And it's photons is the smallest particles in the quantum physical reality. And the experiments that have proven This is that the particles don't even exist until the scientist intends to observe them. Meaning that the particle shows up for the experiment, when the observer intends to measure it, accelerate it, do whatever they're going to do with it to test it out. That's when the particle actually shows up. So the same thing happens in our manifestation. And when we have a true choice, we have a true desire. And we're focusing on that not trying to solve the problem, but we're focused on what we want. And we recode the resistance out of the way from the superconscious level, that true choice shows up as soon as possible. I'm not saying it's going to show up tomorrow.

Ari Gronich

32:40

Got it. So that's where the as soon as possible comes in from the SMART goals. So we've kind of wrapped around. So let's get into that that as well. When we say something like, as soon as possible, kind of like one of the things that I say is how can it get any better than this? It's an open-ended question, right? That has no specifics to it, that allows the conscious mind to solve its own problem. Right. So here's the here's the question to you is, isn't that problem solving? Or is that something else? 

Gunther Mueller

33:18

Well, I was just going to stop and say it's not the conscious mind doing the problem solving when we're doing what we're doing is we're just asking superconscious to recognize the resistance, it's back to the resistant your piece of resistance, I would equate to being the true choice and the desire, that sustained resistance is the sabotaging identity. Okay, that's what creates the oscillating. And it just feels like you know, many times I've had what I wanted, I've been there. It's like, when I've created companies, I get there to the end, I have it life's good. Got the cash flow, get everything. There's still something missing. I wasn't really clear enough about what I want here. So my self-sabotaging reality was I could create anything I could build stuff. My thing was, I wasn't good enough to keep it. Yeah, I was great. I was creator, I could do this. I could build anything. But then when it was completely built and humming and running, you got taken away from me, or something happened and it cratered. But that's the underlying identity. Because the identity has to be congruent with the reality. If your identity never changes from like, I'm not good enough to I am good enough. I am capable, I am worthy. If that never changes, you can create a bunch of things and they won't sustain this happens in relationships. This happens, you know, in intimate love relationships, like you get there. It's the best thing in the world and the whole thing, just craters and goes away and you got to start over. What is that? Right That's what we're talking about here. So that resistance is in the center. unconscious program, it is a self-sabotaging identity. And so we can create it through affirmation and conscious work and all that. But it takes a long time to do that. And it takes diligent effort on our part to do it consistently. And so why I think the mag

Ari Gronich

35:18

We're a fast food nation. So you know, that's been, you know, when I look at cognitive behavioral therapy, and the old paradigm of trauma work, I look at this long process, lifelong process of question and discovery, as to why your mind feels a certain way about a certain thing. I mean, I was seven when I was sent to my first psychologist, right. And I look at that as such a primitive way of doing therapy. Whereas, like, back in the, in the day, you know, tribal societies used plant medicines, and used tribal and cultural togetherness, deal with people's stuff. So let's accelerate what you're talking about. So we're going to accelerate from this old paradigm of subconscious moving things. So we're going to go to the superconscious and accelerate things. What does that look like?

Gunther Mueller

36:25

Yeah, so I'm going to share that. But I don't want to say like everything that's been is not bad. Okay. We do the best we know how to do with what we know. And seven-year-old ongoing see the psychotherapist and he says the best that maybe your parents or whoever you had to do at the time, those were the tools, right? So think of everything is huge evolution that's happening. And this is awakening to the place that we're at today. And today, we have something called the magnetic mind method where, you know, what if it could be easy, what if it doesn't take 10 years of psychotherapy to figure out why I am the way that I am, and why I can't have what I want, or I get what I want, and it gets taken away. So when we go to superconscious, superconscious already knows. And we don't need to spend all that time digging in and asking the questions and figuring out where the connections were and where the misalignments were in Well, you know, I thought something but it wasn't really true. And I had, I gotta straighten all this out. superconscious can straighten that out in a blink, just because it already knows and you don't have we don't have to tell it any of the details, all we have to do is focus on what we want. And it's really the experience of what we want. So you mentioned earlier about, you know, getting into the emotions, getting into the emotion of the end result is step three, and the five step method because, you know, Einstein said, Look, there's only two things in the universe, there's information and there's energy, the information is the desire, the what, what do I want, okay. And the energy is the emotion. And it's like a holographic movie that when those two things come together, it's actually how a hologram is created. Okay, the energy and the information come together and shoot the manifests a hologram. So think of your life as like a holographic movie, where you are manifesting, you are, things are showing up in real time. And think of yourself for a second, as you're the director, you're the producer, you're the screenwriter, you've handed everybody their parts, and everything is happening, not to you, but for you to have the experience that's congruent with your identity. So you get treated by the characters, you know, as Shakespeare said, you know, all the world's a stage, and we're just actors on it, right? But you're the main guy, even in a movie, imagine walking into the screen and you becoming the main character. And when you look at some movies or series or something like that, some characters get written out a script. Right, they die off something terrible happens, they no longer exist. And the whole dynamic of the movie changes Think of your life in that way. The people that are there the circumstances, the conditions, the what is now is just what is. And when we focus on something else. And is the key point here also, we can focus on the problem, we can focus on how to fix the problem, and try to create, invent or figure out how to solve the problem. But what we focus on grows. So the more we focus on the actual problem, the bigger the problem sometimes gets. That's where we have to back out of that go into the creator stance and focus on what we would love focus on what we would just purely want. And that's how you know you have a true choice. If I asked you why do you want what you want? And you give me an answer and it sounds like a stepping stone on to something else. As a coach, I'm going to tell you that's not really the true choice because you're choosing something to get something else we have to get to the final end result. So I want to share just four creative stances with you real quick, to give you the perspective, a good creator stance is something like I choose to live my true nature and purpose. I just choose it. I choose to live my true nature and purpose because I'm going to tell you the only power that we really have in life is the power of choice. Think about it from the moment you wake up in the morning, what time do I get up? What are we going to wear, when we're going to go, we're going to drive, I'm going to take a bus, you know, when am I going to take lunch, it's a series of choices. And every choice has a result, or call it a consequence, right? So I choose to live my true nature and purpose. Another one is I choose to be the predominant creative force in my life.

Gunther Mueller

0:00

I choose to live the life that I love. And this comes in alignment with your actions, right? The person that is living a life that they love, or this imaginative person that you see right now living a life that they love and the desire with that emotion of the end result, you're seeing the life that you love. What would you be doing right now, that's in alignment with that true choice. The action has to become an alignment, the identity needs to shift, but the actions have to be in alignment with their true choice. In other words, I choose to be healthy and vital. You know, the health issues we have going on in this country in the world and all that, you know, when your body is not working, and supporting you in the life that you love, it's a problem, you don't get to do the things that you love to do, because your body's not cooperating. So having a true choice, and I choose to be healthy and vital. And so let's just take a serious condition right now, if you're dealing with cancer of some level, the two choice is not to be cancer. The true choice is to be healthy and vital to have the experience. It's not the problem solving of how do I beat cancer? What therapy Do I need to beat cancer and all that the mindset shift needs to be creative and say, I choose infinite health and vitality? And what would it feel like to be infinitely healthy and vital. And you get into that stance? Because I'm going to tell you that everything that's ever been created, has been created twice, once in the mind. And once in a three-dimensional physical experience.

Ari Gronich

1:31

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because I watched a lot of Jim Rohn stuff. And one of the things that Jim Rohn says is, is you wouldn't build a hotel until it was done. Right. You wouldn't build the thing until you had the blueprints until it was done. In your mind. If you just started to build something, you had brick, and you didn't know what you were building, people would ask you, you know, what are you building? I don't know, I'm just putting bricks together and they'd send you away. You know, he's like we are human beings are the one species that can program in and pre plan and choose what they're going to create. And…

Gunther Mueller

2:19

sees are on instinct right. They’re instinctual beings. Right? We have this creativeness. And if you ever read scripture in the beginning, I mean, it starts out right in the beginning says we were created in the image of the Creator. And so if we were in the image of the Creator, what are we? We are creative?

Ari Gronich

2:40

I mean, if you're religious and believe that that is the line, absolutely. If you're not religious, and you don't believe that that's the line in a book, that means anything, it's still we create our kids, right? We create our imagination; I tell people on this show a lot. Like, we made this shit up. This is all a figment of our imagination. All of it, every single thing that we see here, taste do, everything is a figment of our imagination.

Gunther Mueller

3:17

And the science backs that up. Our thoughts are perceptions and illusory, they're illusion, our emotions are illusion, they're not real. Okay, we make you sad. It's a simply we make this shit up, we create the reality we experience. And that's why you already are a superconscious creator. And all we have to do is what are you focused on? Are you focused on solving the problem to get what you want? Or do you really take back your power as a creator and choose to be the predominant creative force in my life? 

Ari Gronich

3:56

So we're gonna go back to your sales background a little bit, okay? Is what you just said? Ring a picture in my head of a billboard with a sign that says buy something to do something to get somewhere, right? So people are watching social media, advertising, how do they even know what is their true choice? How would they how would you even at this level, in this day and age, right, the bombardment of information and problems and stuff, right? How does somebody get to what that true choice is and while avoiding the noise of the sales of that advertising

Gunther Mueller

4:52

Great question, because that is step one. In the five step magnetic mines. How do you choose a true choice? How do you actually get to it? And a true choice. The simple answer is if I asked you like, give me something you would just love. Give me something you would just really want. What's something?

Ari Gronich

5:09

I'll just go to the, you know, question that life spring always or landmark always asked is chocolate or vanilla? Okay, for ice cream, like, what do you choose, chocolate or vanilla. 

Gunther Mueller

5:21

Choice of chocolate or vanilla or the choice of chocolate? Doesn't really doesn't matter. One day, I'll choose chocolate one day, I'll choose vanilla, because I like variety. Right? Okay, so that but that choice doesn't have any consequences. Right? So let's say let's say somebody chooses, let's take it in business, right? Um, you know, be like, Ari if you're coaching them are those on the show today, I got to start this business because I'm sick and tired of my nine to five job and I'm tired of my boss, I want to work for myself, you know, and they've seen the glitz on social media of people who've made it big, and they're driving lambos and stuff like that, you know, and you're just like, I want that, I want that. But the only way I'm going to get that I'm not going to get that at my job doing what I'm doing right now. Because my boss is cheap, and he's never gonna pay me more. I'm not getting paid what I want, what I'm worth, you hear the story that goes on mouth is a story, right? And so they would come to a coach like myself or like you, right? And we'd be like, well, I'm gonna do this, I need help doing this. And I'm gonna ask the question, Well, why do you want that? And if the answer is not just because I want it, it's not a true choice. If the answer becomes I want it, because when I have it, then I can be this or I can get that or it can become something else. Or it gets me to another place, then that thing that you just told me you wanted is not the true choice. It's just a stepping stone on to what you really want. So a true choice gets answered with I want it just because I would love to experience that. I want it just because I want it my being my desire, I just want that. I don't care what anybody else thinks. I don't get anybody else's input, whether it's a good choice, bad doesn't matter. I want it because I want to experience it experience is a very important thing. Because it's maybe not be a thing. It may not be something, it may be just an experience, like infinite abundance, or, you know, optimal vital health. Right?

Ari Gronich

7:30

So true choice. I still, and I just want you to go deeper, I guess into it. I still see. Let's say I want joy, I want infinite joy. I want to experience joy at will. 

Gunther Mueller

Why do you want that? Why do you want to experience joy? On an infinite level? 

Ari Gronich

Right? That's what I'm saying is like, if somebody's saying that there's, at least in my case, it would be cuz I don't, but it would be. I haven't experienced enough joy in my life. So I want to experience at will the experience of joy. I love watching joy when I watch American Idol and I see somebody win. And they're just like, sheer joy. I want that. Right? It never, it never seems like a true choice. Because there's always is an outside perspective or an outside. If it's something I have not experienced, right, then it's outside of me. It's something I've been told would be good, right?

Gunther Mueller

8:35

Your key right there, it's something I've been told would be good. And I should go do that. I should want that. That would be good for me. Someone else said. And then somebody else says that somebody else says somebody else says because all these somebody else's said it, it must be true. And it's not. So that's why coming into two choices and exercise that I do. It's called seven levels deep. And so you say the first thing that you really want, whatever it is, and I'm gonna ask you. So when you get that, what does that give you? Well, what do you get when you get that? What does that do for you? You say? Well, when I get that, I'm going to get this and it goes down to the next level. Okay, so when you get that, what does that do for you? But what do you get when you get that? Well, when I have that, then it's going to give me this. Okay, take that down. You have to third level now, right? You do that for seven levels deep. I want this because it gets me that then well, why do you want this? Well, because when I have this I can have that. And when I have this then I can have that and he push it down about seven levels and when you get down to the very bottom, and a lot of times you need a coach to do this because people will immediately say I don't know. And a coach will be like you do know you are connected to your infinite field that infinite consciousness. You do know, there's an aspect there's a resistance of you that doesn't want to recognize that, you know, because there may be a latent fear there, there may be something there that's blocking that, that real connection. And so it's a great exercise to go seven levels deep and Okay, so I say I want this thing, what do I want that? Okay, when I get that was like, What do I want that and you take it all the way down, that's how you get what I really want, is the experience of freedom. And no one ever getting to tell me what the hell to do. That's what I really want. Freedom, like for me is one of the operative words that have pushed me through life is the word freedom. And I was when I was in Alaska, I was working on a boat called the Born Free. no coincidence. Okay, the Born Free. And that's I identified with that name right away, like I am born free. It's not a I choose to statement like I knew it my consciousness that I am born free, free to choose what I want, when I want, who I want to do it with how much of it I want to do, it's me. And some people will flip that around while you just being selfish. No, it's in that same vein, that I can help whoever I want, I can provide for whoever I want, I can do all things with that type of freedom. And so when you look at the human desires of what it is we truly want, and you do a seven levels, deep exercise like that, I can tell you're going to get to the nitty gritty of what it is you really want. And that leads me to the two most important questions in life, which is Who are you? Who is it that you say you are? How do you operate? you operate with honesty, integrity, you know, things like that, like how do you I want to give you all the words, but how do you describe who is it that you say you are Who are you? And most of us have not spent any time contemplating that question, Who am I really Who am I? And then the second question is, what do I want, based on who I am what do I want. And all the social media, all the noise, all the influence from parent’s school programming, peer pressure, whatever you want to call it, all that noise needs to cease for a moment, or lots of moments. So that you can actually get into your own being and understand what it is you truly would choose just because you would love it. See, we've never been given the opportunity in our programming really, to choose from a place of love. We choose from a place of elimination, sometimes, well, I got three crappy choices. Okay, so get rid of that one, get rid of that, I guess I choose that we choose by default, because we don't see any other choices, I don't have any. So I got to do that. And we choose by consensus. Before I make a decision, let me check with everybody and make sure everybody's gonna be on board with my decision. That's not a true choice. Where the fear is, if I choose something, my friends don't agree with me, I'm gonna lose my friends. That's fear. Right? So be conscious, observe how you choose what you choose. And that's a practice also, that's something that we just have to become conscious of? And what is our motivation? What are we really? Why do we want what we want? Is it to impress others? Is it to be liked? is it to have this feeling of belonging? is it to have this feeling of significance or being capable or admired, or to be beautiful or to be whatever, right? Whatever that desire is, it's a process of becoming conscious now, we don't have to go back and unravel everything because we are not broken. What is, is, and this is another key point I want to share the future will not be better. Many of us to say my life will be better when, my life will be better when this happens, or that happens when I get this, then I'll be able to do that. And everything is contingent on the future showing up. That's not how you create because the future is not going to be better because you are still going to be you in the future. Okay, what's it's just going to be different. And if we can just hold that thought for a second, the future is not going to be better. It's just going to be a different experience. And what I'm experiencing right now is just what is it's not bad. It's not horrible, because we just naturally our conscious mind like to throw labels on stuff. This suck. That's bad. That's wrong da da da.., right? And I want this because it's gonna be better. It's not going to be better. It's just going to be different experience than what is now If we can hold that for a second, we can achieve a level of contentment in the present moment, we can just be okay with what is. And we can just observe the current reality. And what is right now as just that is just what is and I choose something different. The feel the feel the difference of that it's not a half two, it's not anything like that it's I want, I just, I'm okay with where I am right now. It's just what it is. I created it all anyway. And I'm just choosing a different experience.

Ari Gronich

15:37

Right. So that kind of ties into the Create a new tomorrow, you know, ideal is, as we started off with at the beginning of this is how to create a new tomorrow today. How do we? How do we get out of our own way? How do we, you know, stop the madness, you and I started before we hit record, we started talking about kind of what's going on in the world. I mean, the president of Haiti was assassinated, we've got the Cuba stuff going on, we got all of this madness around us. And the way that I always see have seen it is when the madness is happening around me, the only way for me to be the eye is for me to go inside. And outwardly focus from within my energy so that I'm pushing at the hurricane, so to speak versus and I'm in the eye instead of being in in the storm. But and obviously that works. Sometimes it doesn't work others, that's just the visual that I have. But we were talking about this, like, how does somebody get out of this place of madness that they're in? Whether it's web site, I don't care if the political or religious or scientific spectrum or cultural spectrum? It's everywhere right now. It's like, it's like a furnace has been lit. And and it's building pressure, right? I think something like we're in a pressure cooker. Yeah, let's talk about how do we let the steam out of the pressure cooker a little bit and then pop the top. So we're not in it? And do that in a safe way. But, you know, like, how do we get to that place from where we're at? Because what you're talking about feels very idealistic. I want to take it out of the idealism and into realism into how can somebody how can we do this? Now? How can we be in this?

Gunther Mueller

17:45

So the idea, let's take the analogy of the pressure cooker. What if you do not have to reduce the pressure? But what if you can exist within the pressure and not be affected by the pressure?

Ari Gronich

18:04

I guess that that's how I feel within like that I have a hurricane. Right?

Gunther Mueller

18:10

It's a great visual, it is a great visual because there is infinite calm in the eye of the hurricane. To the left, there's chaos to the right, there's chaos, stuff blowing up, getting knocked down over here, stuff blowing up and knocked out over there. But in the middle, no wind, no storm in the eye could even be sunny in the middle of the hurricane. You know, it's like this whole Sun comes through and beautiful day. But the Hurricanes moving right. So the idealism, it only seems ideal, because it's a new concept. And just as asked was a new concept, you know, 30 years ago, that kind of thing, right? And rebirthing, we talked about that offline to so many techniques and things like that, to what to help us feel better. That's really what the human experience is, we want to just feel better. We want, we want what we want, which is to sum it up, less pain, more satisfaction, we want less pain and more satisfaction, you can throw the words meaning fulfillment in there. And what we talked about offline briefly was this pressure cooker feeling is like I described as people I think are getting to the point globally. Now. You mentioned all the places where there's unrest and problems going on. They are tired. They've had enough of not having enough. And I've always thought this look when you have nothing to lose. You have nothing to lose. And so you're going for it all because the current situation is not worth maintaining anymore. There's nothing in it anymore. It's painful, is gotten to the point where the pain of that existence. It is time to do something about it. But again, if you look at the world, they're solving it from the problem-solving real reality, we need to overthrow the dictator, we need to get a new government, we need to be left or right, we need to do this we the problem solving is there. So to answer your question that you asked me earlier a little bit, I wanted to inject the idea of we need to be it in order to see it. And the personal development movement have had has had that switched around a little bit, that as we start seeing results, we can be more that of that thing, right? I get when I have a billion dollars, I can be generous, right? So I need to create all this stuff. I gotta be a billionaire. And then I'll be able to, you know, be generous, like, if you're not generous now, in the current situation, you will not be generous. how many billionaires Do you know, I don't know that many of them. But I've heard of, and I read their stories, right? They're in fear of losing what it is they have. They don't have the bliss and the peacefulness and the calm in their life, and the experience that most of us really want or the freedom, okay, and we think that Oh, being that person like, the responsibility that comes with that position, the number of people that are trying to take your stuff, when you're in that position, the attacks that are coming at you, we think, oh, because, you know, we're in our secure Oh, it'd be so much better to be that guy. I'm here to tell you, not really not unless you structure it properly with the end in mind. Now, there are some people that have that, let's say kind of wealth, and I talk about wealth, not because it's the most important thing, because it's on a lot of people's minds. It’s easy to measure, right? And when you look at the world, that seems to be what the irritation is, is not having enough. 

Ari Gronich

21:53

Let’s say, you know, we go to the statistic 1.87, I believe trillion dollars into the like, top 10, 20 people in the world, their wealth over the course of COVID. Right. Whereas we spent, I think it's around 3 trillion. So I'm just going to correlate it right. So I correlate it, like the government spent 3 trillion of taxpayers money, 2 trillion of that approximately went into 20 people's hands. Right. So there's a correlation between wanting, I guess, fairness or equanimity and these kinds of things within the situation that that we aren't seeing, right. So if we're not seeing the fairness and equanimity that pain level goes up, as you were saying, and then the pressure cooker arises. But I don't think that people correlate the two things like they don't say, two, or 3 trillion came out of people's hands and into 20 people's hands, like out of a few 100 million into 20 people's hands. They don't say that they don't, they just say during this period of time, these top 20 people, their wealth skyrocketed, and these people their wealth went, right. So if we don't get the correlation, how do we get to the end, I'm going to use the word solution but as a problem solving, but how do we get to that place where equanimity fairness, those things, where as they're not guaranteed in life, are at least structured more appropriately or so that people can have the sense that when they do something like this magnetic mind, you know, and they're doing these five steps that they actually think that that true choice can happen?

Gunther Mueller

24:03

Yeah, so anything high Einstein said this to write anything that you can imagine, you can create, anything that's ever been created started in the imagination first, but you have to think of your life in little bubbles, you are in this little bubble right here. Okay. And that's just you, your desires, your true choices, the experience that you want in the current reality, and you want this experience just because you'd love it, just because you want it just because that's the experience you want to have. It does not mean that the entire world has to change for you to have this experience in your life. And let's just stick with the wealth or abundance type thing. In order for you to have the experience of abundance. It doesn't mean you have to be one of the 20 people. Ari, I want to use an example of breathing The last time you thought about how much air was available to you today to breathe.

Ari Gronich

25:06

I'm a weird one, I think about it because I think about cleanliness and the air. But you know. 

Gunther Mueller

That's different from quantity, right? 

Ari Gronich

That is different. quality versus quantity. Yeah, that's different.

Gunther Mueller

25:17

But our experience as human beings is that we've always had pretty much unless you're drowning, or you're locked in a sealed box or something like that we've had an infinite air supply, we can breathe as much as we want as fast as we want. We've never really thought about, you know, is there going to be enough air today for me to survive? Know the so even in the current reality in the current moment, if you focus on just breathing, you can have the experience of abundance. That's what abundance feels like having more than enough. And so let's say in our lives, if we want to create that experience of abundance, if you have $10, left over from your budget, at the end of the month, you have more than you needed, you just have $5 left over at the end of the month. That is an experience of abundance, it may not match your desire. But this is what creates the contentment in the moment just for a time since you can plant your feet. And you can be it now. Okay, you can be it now you can experience abundance of what it feels like to be abundant in your little bubble. All right now around this bubble, is your family, friends and influence your little tribe is around there. And these are the ones that could be speaking, some sort of negativity into your thing, right, but you're in this bubble, you have a true choice, you have a desire, you have the thing that you would just love to experience for no other reason than the fact that you want it, you love it. And this field here is either going to you're going to influence this field or this field is going to influence you. And the more you secure yourself in your own being listening to your own voice, your own desires, and you focusing on that which you want, and not trying to solve for world peace or trying solve all the ills and all the problems in the world. It's the analogy of the airplane, right, you have to put your oxygen mask on first, before you can help anyone else. So getting in to the conscious creator stance, and choosing that which you want, creates this little bubble. And you can experience that which you choose to experience in this little bubble and it does work. Okay, the magnetic mind method has even restored eyesight, we're not promising that but we had a blind person go through a series of recodes and restored the eyesight because the identity shifted from a person that did not see to a person that now sees, we've had people get out of wheelchairs, because the identity has shifted, again, extreme examples of what is not promising that everybody, but when the identity shifts, the current reality changes. And that reality includes the bubble of your family may not like how your family and friends treat you or done it enough. But that can change too. When this changes, then this changes when this bigger bubble then changes, then the outer bubble changes and the more people that are taking this responsibility for themselves and manifesting their own true choice experience. And imagine if more and more and more people did this on a regular basis. And I regular by i mean you know, once or twice a day is getting into that field and being clear about what you want. Because you have to send that vibration into the field superconscious needs to know that you're serious about what you want. It can't just be a fleeting whim or a little desire, you know, based on your motivation. And honestly, that's why you do need a coach to coz a coach can help you see what you can't see. Okay, the stories you like to tell and the what ifs all the excuses you create and all that kind of stuff. You need to look Tiger Woods has a coach right best golf forever. He said hundreds of coaches in his career, Michael Jordan, right LeBron, all these good coaches because they can't see what they can't see. They got somebody looking at you doing this, you need to do that. And stopping you in your tracks stopping the story. You're not broken. There's nothing to fix. What do you want, and focus on that? focus on that. The mind immediately wants to go back to this but You mean this? Because it's like a record player. For those of you who remember records, right? Put the needle on the groove, and it's playing the groove actually need to pick the needle up and play a different song. That's what we need to do. So that's how it becomes practical, right? It's not this airy-fairy thing. And again, I'm going to encourage people if you If you don't believe it or whatever, you're skeptical and being skeptical fine, everybody skeptical at some point, look at the science and read stuff about the field read stuff about quantum physics, the authors that I would recommend people like Bruce Lipton, Joe Dispenza, Gregg Braden, I mean, they got videos on YouTube, go check out their videos, this is a science, these guys have been digging into this for the last 20 years. This is not new, right? It may be new to you if you're hearing this for the first time, but it's not new. And for me, it was an evolution of you know, I've spent hundreds of 1000s of dollars in the personal development space, okay, over 30 years. And it was all good, because it got me to where I am today. And you know, the consciousness that I have today. But when I got introduced to the magnetic mind method, I really was like, wow, this is this is different. Because, you know, what, if it could be easy here at my desk, when I'm looking, I have a framed sign that just says, What if…, I remind myself constantly, constantly? What if it could be different? What if it could be easy? What if it doesn't have to be this way? And just opening that possibility of what if allows the imagination to actually perceive a different reality. And as soon as we start perceiving a different reality, it means we can create it. We can create that now. As soon as possible. Okay.

Ari Gronich

31:32

Awesome. So let's go back to you know, your three kids, your businesses, right. And I just want to have a personal story of like, how this has affected your relationship with your kids. Because a lot of people out there have had to homeschool their kids for the last year, year and a half and are probably at some level needing some of this kind of work. 

Gunther Mueller

32:03

Yeah, and it's, you know, once a parent can learn this, and I tell you, it's really affected the success of my children. I do feel really blessed. I believe I've played a role in who they are today. And constantly reminding them look, the One Power that you have in life is the power of choice. And choose carefully. Because and project into the future. begin with the end in mind. What do you want your life to look like? You know, your show, creating a new tomorrow, be really clear in what you want tomorrow to look like I can use the analogy of your perfect average week. If you could create and design your perfect average week, what would you be doing on Monday? What would you do on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday? What would you be doing on those days? Perfect. The audience and the listeners right now, how many of them have it written? Or how many of them even contemplated their average perfect week, hopefully on your show they have, right? Because you say we created all this, right? We made this shit up. Right? Okay, well, we made this shit up, then we can make up some new shit, right? And do something. So what do we want tomorrow look like and with my children, that was the conversation I had around the dinner table, I can tell you that I think the conversation around a meal is very important. Because that's when the stuff can get thrown on the table. And it's not a judgmental conversation, either. It's Look, it's just what is, kids are struggling with stuff, they got to think they need a place where they can come to. And just open up without ramification. Without you know, place. Now I'm not saying that anything was legal or anything like that. No, they knew the standard that I was going to have in my home. And I enforced the standard. And it was for their protection, right. And if you look at different ages, you do different things. Also, I mean, what you do to a six-year-old or with a six-year-old is different than what you do with a 14-year-old. Okay? But I can tell you this type of reasoning, this type of mentality is very successful. My oldest son just graduated from the US Merchant Marine Academy. He's going to do what he's wanted to do since he's nine years old. He wants to Captain ships, you know, on the on the oceans of the world. He's going to do that. My middle son is a ballet dancer for Dutch national ballet and Amsterdam. You know, he got into dancing only when he was about 13 years old decided that's what he wanted to do. Three choice. He loved it, saw it all the way through competitions got hired, you know, top five ballet company in the world. And then I have daughters. She's about 14 right now, second year high school starting and you know, a little bit different than the two boys and so for girls I think are different than boys. So I'm finding my groove there really how to how to communicate that and how to instill that. That idea that look, you can create what you want. You can have the experience that you love, you can have the experience that you choose. And, you know, typical teenage things, friends, girlfriends, conflict, and you know, the relationships cause stress and causes trauma and all that, being able to come out and be the observer. And teaching your children how to just look at the situation for just what it is and not make a judgment on it. And just, it just is what is now, how would you like it to be? It goes back to the little cosmo bubble, right? you are the predominant creative force in your life. Tell me how you'd want it to be. And then you can do a recode, which is what we do we melt away the resistance.

Ari Gronich

35:56

Yeah, so let's get into that recode thing. What, what exactly, you know, like, that's Step five, right? So we've gone through step by step four. So let's just recap 123 and four, and then get into that one. 

Gunther Mueller

36:12

One is true choice. Two is to create the structural tension, this is the way it is now this is the way I want it, this is the way it is now is where I want step two, three is getting to the emotion of the end result four is to do a recode melting away the resistance that download to the subconscious. And then five is to take the next obvious action, once you do a recode superconscious will download to you what the next obvious action is. And that's trusting that

Ari Gronich

36:42

Right, so let's get into this recode now, and I'm gonna say this because it reminds me a little bit, my buddy is an author and wrote a book about the angels with us, you know? And he actually will ask that question, what's my next best step? And wait for a response every single day before he does anything during the day? Right? That's the first thing that he does. He doesn't I don't know if he knows about the recoding. So let's get into the recoding. But that's what it reminded me of is he literally is like, every single day, every action is what's my next best step. And then he stops, and he waits until he gets an answer. That's clear.

Gunther Mueller

37:30

So what we do in a ricotta, it's real simple, you don't have to be a spiritual meditator or anything like that. There's no qualification to get benefit from a Rico, you just kind of, the client gets into just a place of kind of innocence kind of out of their head, maybe into their heart focus on their breath. They're totally conscious, there's no hypnosis, there's none of that going on here, every word. And then what I do is I connect into their field; they give me permission to connect into their field to speak and work with their superconscious being. And I basically asked superconscious say, do you see the true choice? Do you see the resistance, we go through a couple exercises to line that out? That here's the true choice. This is the resistance is what it feels like. And the end result is what it feels like the way it is now we create that structural tension, right? And in the recode, all's I'm doing is really asking super conscious to do a massive change history in the code and do it in the perfect way, do it the perfect order, and don't get to the blue screen, you know what I mean? Don't mess with anything that doesn't need to be messed with, you know, because it is the infinite field, all wisdom, all knowledge, everything that has ever existed or will exist is in that field right now. And so superconscious, that aspect of you, is already connected to that. And so we're just asking, Hey, do you see this resistance to the true choice? Can you treat it? Can you remove it so that we can have less pain and more satisfaction in life, and are all the aspects of the personality on board and the process takes about 15 minutes, and the client usually just feels a shift, a major shift and whatever was keeping them small, whatever was keeping them trapped, let's say or oscillating or stuck or whatever. That resistance just feels like it melts away. And then in my work, what we do is we do that recoat on a regular basis maybe weekly, okay, and we can touch on different true choices and recode that resistance but at the end of every Rico, what's the next obvious action then we have a whole lenses program also that gets into 90 days, 30 days, seven days daily, like what is the true choice? What do you really want to work on right now? And it's gone from a to do list. That seems to be this wait because nobody ever finishes their to do list. It's always all these things. You got to do it. Switch that to and I could do list. Just get it out of your head, get it on a big piece of paper, whatever that is all the things that could do. And from that, you choose what you will do. And if you choose more than three things a day, you're overwhelming yourself. Okay? Even if you choose one thing saying, but some people be like, Oh, I'm not good enough. If I don't do 10 things today, you can't do 10 things. Don't even bs yourself that you're going to do 10 things today, you know, you're not. So why are you setting up yourself for defeat and failure and see there's a, there's a graciousness with this work, there's a flow that gets instilled when you take that creator stance, see, like, when you become super conscious consciously, you simply learn to read code, the resistance that's in the way of taking the obvious action, to turn your thoughts into things. And the end result is that life just becomes easier. When you take your power back and you become this conscious creator, the experience of life becomes easier. And it's not this hard work. It's not this beating yourself up. Oh, I have to now there's missing meditation, but we have all the meditation, I'm talking about 15 minutes a day, you know, 30 minutes a day maybe. And if you can't give yourself that, and you can't quiet down for that amount of time and day and put yourself in that primary position. So that you can manifest what you want. Which would love to experience like my Monica, you know, to create the life that you love. If you can't give yourself 30 minutes a day to create the life that you love, then I would suggest that you're not serious about creating the life that you love.

Gunther Mueller

0:00

30 minutes a day to create the life that you love, then I would suggest that you're not serious about creating the life that you love.

Ari Gronich

0:19

True. Let’s go way, way, way back to the very, very beginning of our conversation. True choice versus reaction. And so I just want to kind of get to where we've full circled reality, imagination, idealism, right? So that the audience can create their new tomorrow today and activate their vision for a better world in themselves first. Right. So let's go back to that, and then we'll finish there.

Gunther Mueller

0:54

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, to kind of put a bow on this whole concept is, we have to get to this place of our true choice, or that desire that we just love, who we are as an individual being, we need to then reclaim our power back, we need to remember who we truly are. And that takes some time to do that. So in my work, you know, I work with clients for about a year in really honing this up. And like you said, we live in a microwave generation people want results faster, I'm gonna suggest that what you want is the end result. And if it takes a little bit of time to get there, so be it. Okay, as soon as possible, you're moving in the direction, the identity needs to shift to become an alignment with the true choice. And again, there's three buckets, there's wealth, there's love, and relationships, and there's health, those are the three main buckets that people want less pain and more satisfaction, just in general terms, right. And if you learn how to become consciously superconscious, reclaiming that power back in, and you focus on what you want, instead of trying to solve the problem, to get what you want. And you allow the infinite field, to create the circumstances, the conditions, the people, that everything that is in your reality, to align with that true choice, as soon as possible. You will have that life that you love. That's how it Have you, you have already manifested the life that you currently have. That's all being you, through the choices through the focus through what you've done, you've created what you're experiencing right now. Now, with some help, you can train yourself gently, gracefully, daily, right? To become this conscious, super conscious creator, to turn your thoughts into things to have what you want, just because you want it just because you love it. And you attract that focus into your present moment. And as soon as it becomes in your present moment, it becomes part of your past. And as you build more past that becomes more evidence to continue to choose continue to choose and become conscious of those choices. And you bring that into your reality. And that's the difference between reacting to what is. okay. Being the predominant creative force in your life is different than reacting to the things that show up in your life. And the only power you have the power to choose and learning how to choose. That to me is the secret. 

Ari Gronich

3:44

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. This has been another great episode. I am absolutely certain you know that the audience has gotten a ton from you. How can people get ahold of you if they want to?

Gunther Mueller

3:56

This way is there's some free stuff to morning ritual type thing and dreamlifemasters.com. So dreamlifemasters with an S.com. And then if anybody would like to experience a recode session with me, I spent about an hour to an hour and a half with you. You can go to quest for the Quan. And that Quan comes from the movie Jerry Maguire, if you remember he wanted it all. Go watch that movie again because I resonate with the Quan. So questforthequan.com, and you can get a for your listeners. Please don't share the code to other people, but massively discounted one on one sessions with me. 

AG

Ari Gronich

4:41

Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And we will be back another time next week. Thank you so much for being here.

Gunther Mueller

Awesome. Thank you.

Today I will be interviewing Dr. Debi Silber, founder of PBT (Post Betrayal Transformation).

We will talk about the pain of being betrayed and will help us understand and learn how to come out of it as a better person Creating a New Tomorrow for ourselves.

=======================

Ari Gronich

0:05

Welcome back to another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I am your host Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Dr. Debbie Silber. She is the founder of the post betrayal transformation Institute and is holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert and the author of number one best-selling book, “The unshakable woman four steps to rebuilding your body”. Dr. Debi, let me just ask you to talk to the audience. Tell them a little bit about your background and why post betrayal? That seems to be an odd thing to niche in. So..

Debi Silber

0:42

Yeah, I don't. I don't think anybody says, Oh, I think I want to study betrayal. No, it's actually my 30th year in business. And as life would morph and change, so would so with the business. And I was in health and mindset and personal development, and then trauma. And I had my first betrayal from my family, and I thought I did the work to heal. And a few months when a few months, few years later, actually it was my husband, and anybody who's been through it. You're blindsided. You're shocked. You're devastated. You know, life as you've known it is no longer. So got him out of the house. And I thought about I said, Okay, well what similar to these two experiences. And I realized I never really took my own needs seriously, it was about everybody else, boundaries were getting crossed. I was like, something's got to change. And that's me. So four kids, six dogs, and a thriving business. I was 50. I'm like, that's it. Going back for a PhD. I didn't even know where that idea came from. I didn't know how I was going to pay for it, how I was going to do it. But it was in transpersonal, psychology, the psychology of transformation, human potential. And while I was there, I did a study, I studied betrayal, what holds us back what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally. When the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my business, my family, my life.

Ari Gronich

2:07

Very cool. So betrayal. Let me ask you a question. All of what you kind of said was betrayal from others? And then you talk about working on you. Right? So the biggest question is the betrayal that we give to ourselves? So can you talk a little bit about that?

Debi Silber

2:35

Sure. Self-betrayal is huge. And there's such a link between self-betrayal and betrayal. You know, self-betrayal is when you know, something isn't in your best interest and you do it anyway. You know, something doesn't serve and you do it anyway, you know, you shouldn't do something, feel something, keep going back for something and you keep doing it. So we're betraying ourselves, you know, it's not in our best interest yet. We keep doing it. So that's self-betrayal.

Ari Gronich

3:02

Okay, so how does that extend into others betraying us? Because what I've found, at least in my experience is, the harder I treat myself, the harder I get treated by others, right, so it directly correlates to, I'm expecting, at this point people to betray me. And so I'm going to invite that in so to speak, versus No, when I have to have a barrier between myself in that or boundary.

Debi Silber

3:33

Yeah, uh, you know, if we write the script for how people treat us, but there were so many things in what you said, like what one thing is, if you expect it, for sure, that's what you know, that's what you'll have. And that's why we see so like, I can spot an unhealed betrayal from a mile away. And one way is when there's a repeat betrayal, because here's this opportunity for us to learn something really profound, not that we're causing the betrayal, but there's a real opportunity here and until and unless we do we will keep getting opportunities in the form of people to teach us this, you know, maybe the bound you know, the rule is that where the lesson is, I need better boundaries in place. I am lovable, worthy, deserving, whatever it is, and you know, it's time to get that lesson so it doesn't have to keep repeating itself.

Ari Gronich

4:22

Just so in the context of how we create a new tomorrow and activate our vision for a better world. You know, what do you say is like the number one, number two, number three things for people to do, so that they can understand this and begin creating a new tomorrow today for themselves?

Debi Silber

4:45

Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing is, like I live real simply have a very simple rule. If it's going to hurt someone, don't do it. Mostly shocked and amazed that other people just don't follow those same rules. So it's really simple. It's like if you want to make a Better Tomorrow, do right by people, you know, lead with kindness, live and love, like, don't just don't hurt people period. But that's not you know, people are acting from their current level of consciousness from where they are. That's the, that's the choice they think is the best, the best move. So, you know, so what do we do, of course, the first thing is prevent something from happening in, in the first place, that's best-case scenario. the second best is to clean it up, clean it up for the betrayed person, there's tremendous opportunity for growth. But for the betrayer, there are two. That is what could be the biggest wakeup call of their life. You know, with some people, it's just on to the next there's a void, there's a hole, there's a gap, and they just don't want to look, don't want to see. So they just keep looking for something on the outside to fill that inside need. You're really not working with much here. So when that's the case, you know, you heal yourself and, and rebuild like, in my scenario. I learned rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild yourself and move on. And that's what I did with my family. Or if the situation lends itself and you're willing, and you want to, you can rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I do with my husband. So not long ago, we married each other again. And there's the opportunity, but I never in a bazillion years would have done anything like that if I wasn't totally different, and for sure if he wasn't either.

Ari Gronich

6:33

Interesting. So here's where I guess I'm struggling with, with some of this is there's a lot of there's a lot of self-accountability, right. But there's also this accountability to and for others. And so when you say something like, just don't hurt people, right? I think to myself, well, I could be just doing me being a good person, the way I'm a good person, and somebody may get hurt somehow seigneur in some way. And so how does not hurt somebody and take care of your business internally and your internal pain so that you're not basically being a pain thrower, throwing your butt off onto people. So I'm trying to, I want to get the balance here for the audience of this.

Debi Silber

7:38

It's a great question. intentionality is really where it is, you know that that's what I'm talking about. When you intentionally are hurting someone, you can of course, listen, if you accidentally bump into someone, you weren't trying to hurt them. It's just it was an accident and things happen. Betrayal, the reason why betrayal is such a unique type of trauma is because of how intentional it is, when someone's breaking the spoken or unspoken rules of that relationship. And every relationship has them. Right? It's a breaking of those rules. One person was abiding by the rules, and the other person without their awareness or consent, broke the rules. That's where it's an issue. If both people in relationship, whether it's friends, family member, partner, whatever. If it's an understood thing, hey, there are no rules here. Okay. And if that's your rule, that's okay. But when there's an understanding, spoken or unspoken, you know, and when one person chooses to break that, and breach that trust, that's what I'm talking about. 

Ari Gronich

8:47

Gotcha. Okay. So then let's talk about businesses, betraying, you know, people, right, so let's talk about that a little bit. Because as I sit and look at politics, and look at businesses and look at all the things going on religion, there's been a lot of betrayal of the trust that people have been placing in them. And so that's where my question to you would be. Let's talk about the larger betrayals beyond individual to individual that, you know, community, to individual country to individual religion, authority figure, whatever it is.

Debi Silber

9:31

Yeah, you broke up for a big piece of that. So I'm going to try to imagine what you were saying here. It's so widespread, it really is. I mean, even so, you know, I remember in my research, reading about consumer betrayal. I mean, we can think about it you can, and the study even found there is something called the love versus hate principle, something like that, where we would rather knowingly do something, we know is bad for buy something we know is bad for us, then be duped. For example, you know cigarettes, we know it's bad for us, right? But if someone were to purchase it, or they would rather do that, then buy a product that says, let's say it's good for us and it's not. Right. So it and then because quickly that love for that company turns to hate, we are furious. It's that feeling of being duped and yeah, so much. You know, we're feeling it in so many areas of life right now. Just even in this post COVID world we're living in. And, you know, where some people are just feeling the we could feel betrayed by our own bodies, we could feel betrayed by life by government, by God, I mean, people can universe source, whatever you say. So it's really, you know, even a breaking of those expectations, right. But the way it works with betrayal is the more we trust, and the more we depend on someone that deeper that betrayal. So a child, let's say, who's completely dependent on their parent and parent does something awful, it's gonna have a different impact than your best friend share your secret.

Ari Gronich

11:03

So then, what is the mechanism, right? I talked about this a lot on the show the mechanism that causes people to act against their own self-interest, because I look at what's going on, just in general, the news, for instance, right? I think it's probably a high percentage of the population that feels betrayed by the news that feels like everything is being lied about, like we go down the aisle in the grocery store, we see all natural, healthy, and then you look at the ingredients, and there's almost nothing natural or healthy about it. Right? So how does somebody number one, emotionally deal with the fact that they are constantly being lied to betrayed and treated in a way that's, you know, against their own self-interest? So have the emotional side of that, but then how do we get people to act based on that so that we can stop those trends?

Debi Silber

12:07

Yeah. You know, it's a great question. Because if anything makes you angry, it's that you're being lied to. And, you know, and that's where trust gets shattered. Because then we look at it. Like with the closer the more obvious betrayals, we say, I can't trust my betrayal. I don't even trust myself, how did I not see how did I not know? So how do I then trust this person, that person, so trust is completely and totally shattered. And that's why it's so traumatic. We, you know, we have to be discerning. So what we don't want to do is just be so unwilling to trust because if there's no trust, there's no relationship. There's no, there's no intimacy, there's no closest you're living half a life, right? It's like you're getting burned on the stove. And you're like, that's it. I'm never cooking again. Right? Yeah, it's not fair to you. So we need to have some level of understanding that people are acting from their current level of consciousness, this is the best they can do for right now. Now, how do you change it? yet? Like a role model? You do? You, you do you the best way you can. And if people ask me all the time, you when it comes to, let's say, kids, you know, they're watching everything you do way more than what you say, it's what you do. So just do the right thing as best you can, from where you are right now.

Ari Gronich

13:32

Okay, so that is a partial answer. So that's the emotional side, write active site, to activate yourself to stop that behavior from not just affecting you, but when we see it, I consider that to be the bully, right? So the behavior is, it's the bullying behavior. So I always say silences are bullies' best friends. So if you want to stop the bully, you got to get loud, right? So in this case, how does somebody get loud start being noisy about the fact that hey, this is going on. And yet doing it not in a victim way but doing it in let's empower ourselves and the rest of the community to say, Hey, we should probably not do this.

Debi Silber

14:20

Right. So I mean, I don't think it really you accomplish anything from a victim standpoint, except making yourself sick. And that's really all you do. from a place of strength. It's having boundaries in place, and standing firm with them not being flimsy with your own boundaries. And the easiest way to see this is what would I recommend to someone else? If I'm, if I would say, if someone were to come to me and say, What do I do about this, or should I tolerate this or that or the other thing? You know, what am I doing? If here's the thing when it comes to betrayal to if I would be Completely an unwilling to completely unwilling to accept anything less than what I deserved, let's say from that person who betrayed me, Well, I have to be completely willing to show up in that strong, powerful way myself. So I have to be unwilling to accept anything less of myself. So I can't just, you know, anything goes, No, I'm holding myself to a higher standard. If I'm gonna hold someone else to it, I start first.

Ari Gronich

15:27

Right, I understand that. So I don't want to go bigger with that again, you know, my whole thing I want to go bigger, with bigger and deeper, bigger and deeper. So, again, I go, this is cool. And let's talk cancer is a betrayal, right? It's a betrayal. The betrayer is, let's say, in some case, the cigarette company, right? The cigarette company is lying to you for 50 years telling you that it's good, right? And now. And now it's done right now. Now we know. So now you're you've become the betrayer yourself, because now you have an open relationship with what used to be the betrayer, which is the company. 

Debi Silber

16:15

Right? So now my role is to not spend a penny with that company again. Because if I do that, and the next person does that the next person does and the next person does that. We're not supporting something that isn't in our best interest.

Ari Gronich

16:30

Okay, so how do we develop the chain reaction? If we see something that systemically bad not for us, but for everyone, right? How do we stem that chain reaction? So I'm going to go to a deeper thing cigarettes is like, easy, right? We already kind of have that around, let's say pesticides in our food, right? Which cause cancer, which are very toxic to your nervous system, your immune system, all those things, right? So let's talk about that. How do we get in not just you and me who have gone organic or whoever who, you know, says let's all go organic? And let's hug trees, right, which completely divides people? How do we get that train going to the companies that are providing those chemicals to stop the governments that, you know, like, how do we stop people? Yeah, other than just saying, I'm personally not going to do that, because one person's pennies don't mean as much as 100 people's pennies.

Debi Silber

17:35

Absolutely. But you know, it's like, they're the only word that comes to mind is critical mass, if I do it, if you do it, and then if our message gets to the next person, the next person, the next person, you know, that's, that, to me, is more effective. Listen, some people are activists, and they're going to be the ones with the signs and you know, protesting outside the company headquarters, and I get that I'm going to do my part and not supporting something and sharing the message to, let's say, my community, and doing my part. And if everybody does their part, it's we can have that that critical. That critical message, it reminds me of that starfish story, you know, you hear the starfish they're all the starfish on the laying on the beach. And there's the I think it's like a grandchild grandson and a grandfather and or something, no son, whatever. And they're just throwing one starfish in and one starfish in , and they're like, well, what's the difference? There are so many 1000s it's like well, this one made a difference to this one made a difference to this one. So I look at it like we're beautiful. We have a beautiful opportunity to do our part, share with our community, be the role model and let that let that grow. So I don't think the anger is what moves the angle if the anger motivates. That's beautiful. But coming at it from a place of strength not a place of just reaction.

Ari Gronich

18:59

Right. But I guess what I got from you, which I was looking for, was the share.

Then get out and you know, not just keep it within for a year yourself. Right? Well, but share it right?

Debi Silber

19:17

Well, of course. I mean, that's why I opened up the PBT Institute. What's the point of me just healing? I mean, I made a vow. I said if I, if I heal, I'm taking Everybody with me. You know, why on earth would I just do this for just myself? It's like, I feel like we owe it to others. If we've been through something, how do you not share that and shorten someone else's learning curve. And if everybody does that with their own experience, someone has a financial crisis. They teach how to avoid it. Someone has a health crisis. They teach how to avoid I had a betrayal crisis. I teach someone how to heal from it. I mean, I think that's, that's how we contribute. 

Ari Gronich

19:53

Awesome. So I like the anger. The anger absolutely motivates me. In some ways, and I like action, right? I like the movement of action; which activism is that? And I'm like for my audience you know, I'm calling for activism these days for people to be actively not going against the system but actively looking for ways that they can improve on the system. So Buckminster Fuller, one of my, you know, mentors, I guess. inspirations, I'd say, you know, used to say, you don't build something, or you don't fight the system, you build something better next to it, and people will come. That's a paraphrase. But that's the idea. So what are we building? Right? for people to come to that's better than the system that we've had. And so for you, you've created what you know, you call the PVT right?

Debi Silber

21:08

The post betrayal transformation Institute, there is nothing like it that exists. It's like how people know, a is if you have an alcohol issue, the PBT Institute is if you have a betrayal issue, you're not meant to stay there long. It's the training wheels until you don't need them. But there's a roadmap and a predictable way to heal now. So if we can avoid it, next best is heal from it quickly.

Ari Gronich

21:30

Awesome. So then I'm going to go into something I talked to you a little bit about in our pre interview, which is the body, the cymatics, the trauma that lives inside of your cells. Because at least in my years of experience, I don't really see talk so much, or cognitive behavioral, do very much for a person long term, it usually brings up the stuff more and you know. So I talk a lot about cymatics and bodywork and getting the issues out of the tissues. So we talk a little bit about that, and how that relates to what you're talking about.

Debi Silber

22:11

Oh, yeah, it's a it's a huge component of healing. You know, the talk therapy, it can do one thing, if you're unpacking it so that you do something with it. That's beautiful. But if you're just unpacking it, so you're just looking at it. I just don't see the point of that. I mean, and here's the thing, we found, the wrong type of support does way more harm than good. Because if someone is in highly skilled, you know, we're talking about betrayal here, if they're not highly skilled, and how to move someone through betrayal, it's it can re traumatize and just keep them re traumatized because so many therapists actually blamed the betrayer. Right, you know, let's say I we've seen this so many times, husband and wife goes to she drags him to couples counseling. And if that therapist isn't highly skilled in let's say, narcissism, let's just say right? Narcissus, crocodile tears, very charming. And the therapist can look at the betrayed say, you know, he just learned to communicate better. It's like, Are you joking? You know, so. So it's that has a role. Certainly, if it's a qualified therapist, there's an important role there. But you're right. It's it goes so much deeper. And you know, that was one of the discoveries that there's this collection of symptoms, so common to betrayal, it's known as post betrayal syndrome. We've had about 25,000 people take the post betrayal syndrome quiz, actually pulled some stats, if you want me to show you absolutely, and we have, every age represented just about every country in this is men and women. So this is so you see, how betrayal, shows itself physically, mentally, and emotionally ready. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hyper vigilant 94% deal with painful triggers, those triggers can take you right down. These are the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy 68% have sleep issues, a 63% extreme fatigue, so you could sleep you wake up, you're exhausted. Those are your adrenals that have just crashed. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe they can't hold food down, and then later on, they're using food for comfort. 45% have digestive issues, anything from constipation, diarrhea, IBS, Crohn's, colitis, you name it. The mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed 70% walking around in a state of disbelief. 68% are unable to focus 64% are in shock. 62% are unable to concentrate. So imagine here you can't concentrate. You have a gut issue. You're exhausted and you're supposed to work and raise your kids or whatever you're doing. That's not even the emotional ones. 88% extremes sadness. 83% are angry, just mix sadness and anger and that's exhausting, right? 82% feel hurt 80% have anxiety 79% are stressed. Here's why I wrote the book trust again 84% have an inability to trust. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how? 

Ari Gronich

25:32

Well, those are some pretty intense statistics, I'm actually very glad that you bring them up. Because, you know, I'm a woowoo scientist, I like science. I like research. I'd like, you know, the double blinds. I like that stuff. And I like the woowoo at the same time. So, you know, so yeah, so let's break some of that down a little bit. If you break down each one, like, what does that story tell you, like, just tell the story of what those numbers are?

Debi Silber

26:07

Yeah, the story is and one thing I can share, too, was one of the other discoveries, the five stages that we go through from betrayal to breakthrough. But what it shows is someone can be fresh out of the shock of their experience, or drowning in it. It can be decades; it could have happened decades ago. And they think just because time has passed, they're better and they're okay. And they're not. And it's interesting, because in the quiz, there's a question that reads, is there anything else you'd like to share, and people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I'm unwilling to trust again, my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can still feel the hate my betrayal happened 15 years ago, I feel gutted. So we know, you know, we've all heard Time heals all wounds, and I have the proof when it comes to betrayal. That's simply not true. So this is a representation of people who are stuck and struggling.

Ari Gronich

27:04

So what do you do? what would you consider a percentage of the population that has betrayal? Because I would look at the world right, and birth to death? I don't see anybody getting out of life without several betrayals, let alone You know, major ones, but several major betrayals, so what does that mean, for a country a populous. I mean. 

Debi Silber

27:33

You know, it means we have, we have so many things that we do so well, and so many things that we suck at. And where we really, it would really serve us to step up our game, something like betrayal. I mean, you see the havoc that is left in the wake of a betrayal. So you know, when that's what's left, after someone just breaks that unspoken or spoken rule, right? There's so much cleanup, there's so much heartache, there's so much damage, right. So it would really serve to just learn more about like, I wish everybody knew these stats, I wish everybody knew. So this way the betrayal could be like, again, do I really want to cause that, you know, these symptoms? To me, the person I say I love, right? I mean, because it's, it's inevitable. Now, that's not saying you have to stay with these symptoms at all. You can heal from every single one of them. I did. But that's where you land. And that's where you know, you can stay if you choose, you know, staying stuck is a choice. 

Ari Gronich

Yeah, so what's, you know, talking about those five steps? 

Debi Silber

Sure. So, so, you know, even but can I give you a little analogy, I think this would really serve, because I see this all the time with people where they are the ones who do get stuck, you know, I here's the difference between resilience and transformation, resilience is restoring. And you need that fear every day. When it comes to betrayal. It's more like trauma and transformation. So using this analogy of a house, and I talked about this in in my second TEDx, do you have post betrayal syndrome? So imagine the house needs a new paint job and you paint, right, that's resilience, you're bringing it back, you're restoring it, or it needs a roof you give it a new roof, that's restoring resilience. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels your house, right paint jobs, not gonna fix it, and a new roofs not gonna fix it. Here's the thing, though. You have every right to stand there at the lot where your house once stood and say, Oh my gosh, this is the most awful thing that's ever happened and you'd be right. And you can call over everybody you know, and say, look at this. Isn't this the most terrible thing you've ever seen? And they all agree, and you don't have to do anything. However, if you choose to rebuild your house, you don't have to but If you choose to, why on earth would you build the same one? There's nothing there. Right? Why not make it so much better, so much more beautiful. That's the opportunity. Betrayal is the setup for transformation. And when we look at it like that, we could be like, okay, it's leveled, it's dead and gone. I can at the very least rebuild a strong solid me. But who knows? A strong, solid, new couple, you could do that, too. Anyway, I wanted to share that before I got to the five stages.

Ari Gronich

30:29

 Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Because it brought something up in me, which is that rebuilding stage? And so one of the things that I've said, as somebody who's had a brain tumor all my life, right, is, I don't know who I would be, without this tumor with without the pain without the struggle without the angst. Without the trauma, without the betrayal without any of those things. I don't know who I would be. And then somebody gave me this glass or this coffee mug that said, life is not about discovering yourself, it's about creating yourself or something like that. And so when I look at, or when you're talking about the rebuilding part, decorating your house the way you want it, building the rooms and the space the way you want it, how does one even envision that from the place of betrayal from a place of, of damage?

Debi Silber

31:36

Yeah. And in the very beginning, getting out of bed, maybe all they can do. So I'm just acknowledging that because that's, that's real. And I'll walk you through the stages. In this way, you'll see exactly where someone is, and, and you'll know and I invite everybody to think about, as I'm going through them, picture yourself, if you're if you're there, if you were there, you know, where are you? Because you'll see yourself clearly. The first stage was a setup stage, I saw this with every study participant Me too, if you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody was this real heavy lien on the physical and the mental, and kind of ignoring the emotional and the spiritual. What does that look like, looks like we're really good at thinking and doing, not really prioritizing the feeling and being, but that's where intuition lies. So often, we turn that down. But if there's a table with only two legs, easy for that table to topple over, and that's us, that's not to say, if you're busy thinking and doing, you're going to be betrayed, it's just that was what I saw. Stage two, this is by far the scariest of all of the stages. And this is shock, trauma, the day, discovery day. And this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. You're shocked. So you've just ignited the stress response. Now you're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness condition, disease, your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm, this makes no sense. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned. It's like a weird time warp thing that's happening right now. And your worldview is shut has just been shattered. That's your mental model. These are the rules. This is our life works. Don't trust that person go there, right. And every rule that governed life is no longer it's terrifying. Bottom is bottom down on you. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do you grab hold of anything you could to stay safe and stay alive? That stage three survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical of all of the stages. If you can help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? Like it's that practical? Here's the trap.

Debi Silber

33:47

Once you figured out how to survive, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where you just came from, you're like, Okay, all right, we got this, and you start planting roots here. We have no idea. There's a stage four and stage five waiting transformation doesn't even start till stage four. But because you think this is it, you better figure out a way to make it work, a few things start happening. The first thing is, you start getting those small self-benefits, right? You get to be right, you get your story, you get someone to blame, you get a target for your anger, you get sympathy from everybody you tell your story to you don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again, should I trust you. So just forget, it's easier not to trust anybody. So you plant deep, deeper roots. Now that you're here longer than you should be? Your mind starts doing things like well, maybe you deserved it. Maybe you're not that great. Maybe this maybe that deeper roots. Now because like energy attracts like energy. You're calling circumstances and people and relationships towards you to confirm this is exactly where you belong. It gets worse but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad. But you have no idea there's anything better. Right here is where you resign yourself to thinking, this stinks. I'm in so much pain. I don't know how to get out of it, but I better figure out a way to make it work. So right here is where you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, keeping busy, reckless behavior, to numb avoid, distract yourself from what's so painful to feel our face. So think about it. You do this for a day, a week, a month now, it's a habit a year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years out and say that emotional eating, you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV, you're doing work that drinking you're doing Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They would say that happened 20 years ago, doesn't matter. You see, all they did was put themselves in a perpetual stage three holding pattern. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, if you're willing to let go of those small self-benefits, you have to do a couple things, grief, you know, mourn the loss, do a bunch of things, you can move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here's where you acknowledge, I can't undo my betrayal, right, but I control what I do with it. So I always use the example of if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever your stuffs not all there, yes, not quite cozy yet. But it's going to be okay. When you're in that mental state, you start turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet. But you just stopped the massive damage you were causing and staging in stages two, and three. Also, what I found so interesting to the stages, if you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right, you don't take the stuff that doesn't represent the version of you, you want to be when you're in this new place. And what I found was, if your friends weren't there for you, if you just had those like-minded stuck friends, right here is where you've outgrown them. And if you don't take them with you, I saw that all the time. And when you're in this stage four you making it Okay, you're making this your new mental home, you can move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal, self love, self care, eating well exercise, he didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now you do your mind, you're making new rules, new boundaries, based on what you see. So clearly now. And you have a new worldview. Based on the road you just traveled. And the four legs of the table. In the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, were solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual to those are the five stages.

Ari Gronich

37:34

Okay, so you have the five leg table, center, one just right, rounded down into the earth. There you go. All right. So let's talk about stage three, a little bit deeper. Mm hmm. Because that's where I think most people are in a chronic automatic patterning, right, that we know about our bodies, traumas that our cells regenerate. Every you know, however, many months to however many years, we are completely cellularly a new person, every seven years, I think, seven years, but like our livers like a few of however many months in our lungs, or however many months. And so, in general, we're in a constant state of completely regenerating who we are as human beings, on a physical cellular level, right. However, what we know is that our genetics continually repattern the same traumas, whether they're physical traumas or emotional traumas that last in the body that are like, you know, in you. So what happens is, when at least when I start doing the somatic body work, is that the body no longer reproduces the scar tissue? You could actually see, like somebody who has a 20-year-old surgical scar, for instance, that disappearing as we end up working on that in those areas. Right. So how do how does? How does that translate to what we're talking about in stage three? Yeah, there are. We're completely rejuvenating and regenerating, but we're creating the same automatic patterns. And then how do we, how do we technically get that to switch into stage four? Mm hmm. Yep. From stage four, the mindset that allows us to go into stage five, because I think that there's something emotional and then mental about going through those two places. So 

Debi Silber

39:49

100%. So to answer your first question, I just want to answer before I forget, there was the part two. So the first part of that is, you know, how we're regenerating right new cells and everything. But when we're fueling ourselves with the same thoughts over and over and over again, that's absolutely what's keeping us stuck. Because think about it, it's the same thoughts that drive the same feelings, the same emotion, that drive more thoughts more feeling more emotion. So we're creating these neural networks, this, these well says groove like grooves in your brain that are so we become so hard wired. So it is so easy to keep going down that well-worn path, taking us to nowhere, we've we've done it, you know, so often, and it's there, there is a point, you know, in the beginning, we're ruminating, we're trying to make sense out of it. But then we have to prevent ourselves from marinating where we're just drowning in it, right. And it's when you've gone down that road 100 million times coming out no better than the last bunch of times, then it becomes, and this, this may annoy people, you're indulging, you're indulging in it. And there's that fine line, where you have to say I'm coming out of this no better than the last bunch of times. And now I have to be a little ruthless with myself. And I have to create a new neural network. So what you're at what you actually need to do is break that connection and form a new one. And what happens is, it's not like you forget your experience, it loses its emotional charge. So to your point, yes, your body's changing. But when the mind changes along with it, that's the chick that's, that's what really moves the needle for us. People in stage three, there with that same thought pattern that's keeping them with the same thoughts, habits, behaviors, actions that are keeping them exactly where they are, and really hurting their health in the process. That’s your first question, right.

Ari Gronich

0:00

Am just gonna break up the second one. So I know with like, say Tony Robbins, state change, right, a 45 seconds state change. So do you have state changes, for instance, to move through those places?

Debi Silber

0:25

Yeah, you know, one of the things that when we work with people, you know, within the Institute, it's knowing, first of all, they have to know where they are, they just have they ruminate enough, and now it's, it's causing some harm. So when, when they know and it's everybody's, you know, situation is a bit different, bit different, but when they know, then Okay, then it's time to come up with something new. So it can be something as simple as wearing a rubber band on their wrists not and so this way, they would snap the ribbon, not to hurt them to remind them. So when they find themselves going down that that rabbit hole that they've done a million times, what they want to do is kind of snap the band, you know, and then beforehand, they also wanted to maybe envision a really happy, peaceful scene, that feels better, right? And so that would be the time to implement it. So let's say they're triggered, they start going down that path, wait a second stop, and whether you have to scream it out loud screaming in your head, whatever you have to do, because those thoughts are running away with you snap the band is that reminder, implement that peaceful, beautiful scene, generate the feelings that come with it? You know, and you'll physic physically, you'll feel different, you're creating a physiological change. Do that enough? Because you can't think of two things at once. Right? So do that enough. And then the old track kind of loses its charge as the new track just, you know, slowly takes over. That's just one of the things

Ari Gronich

1:57

You know, it's interesting, when you were talking, I was remembering, being in Israel, and going down a cobblestone street that had groove marks in the stone from the carriages that would go through and how well grooved into history. Those grooves are from so many people. And what I find interesting is like, you know, those tracks are pretty thin, yet? Everybody went in the same tracks. 

And nobody. Look, it's almost like, nope, nobody went outside of those tracks and said, hey, let's create some new grooves. Right. So let's just kind of go. I know, I often go to nonlinear places. But let's go into why do we continually follow the same group that we know is not working? 

Debi Silber

Because we don't have to think. Thinking is hard. So we don't have to think that way. We assume everyone knows better than us, we assume it's right and true, not because we're tapping into our own inner guide. We're just assuming everybody knows better than us. So sometimes it's self-esteem issues. Sometimes it's, you know, a worthiness issue right here. But what happens is just because it's easy, just because it's familiar, doesn't mean it's good. The only benefit is that it's familiar, right? Like I use an example of, let's say, it's, there's snow on the ground, right? And someone, you know, paves a path for you very easy, right? You just keep walking on that thing. And maybe it's taking you nowhere, but if you were to then shovel a new path, right, it could be Rocky and unstable and you could slip and you can fall. But if you commit to going on that path, not allowing yourself to go on the other one, eventually that path is going to be as well-worn as the first but it's taking you somewhere so much better. But it's a commitment to stop walking on that first path and venture into the next one knowing that it's not going to be easy. We don't like getting uncomfortable. We don't like that. We will do all we can to avoid discomfort. You know but think of the caterpillar and the butterfly the most classic example of transformation think about that Caterpillar is just done being a caterpillar die think of it the symbolism hangs itself from a branch to die to the life it's known. spends a cocoon around itself is willing to be deconstructed emulsified unrecognizable from anything it once was only because it went through that does it get to be the butterfly, most beautiful creature on our planet, right? Can't do that. If it wasn't going through that process. 

Ari Gronich

4:49

And it has to fight to get out of the cocoon. It can't be helped, out of the cocoon, right.

Debi Silber

4:55

Yeah. And I remember someone telling me also if you were to go over, before it's ready, and just get really close to that cocoon, he would like shake a little as if to say Buzz off, I'm busy at you know, and it shows you transformations are very personal process, people won't like it. They like knowing where you stood, they like knowing what they can get away with, they don't like it when all of a sudden you have something else to say. 

Ari Gronich

5:21

So part of the grooves teaches me about the difference between leadership and following. And so we tend to follow our own grooves that we've created. I know when I'm driving in the rain, right, and I see the grooves of water that all the cars have gone through. I always go outside of the grooves, it's a smoother ride, right? It actually is smoother than going inside of the grooves of other people because I'm not being controlled, my steering wheel isn't getting locked into the grooves, right? I'm not being controlled by the grooves as much of other people. So let's talk about what comes out on the other side of all that pain that transformation and struggle goes through. And, yeah, let's just let's go to that.

Debi Silber

6:17

Yeah, you know, it's such an amazing process, when you realize just because that's what other people do doesn't mean it's right for me. And it's when you say Okay, you know what that may have worked for them. But this is my own path here. And I'm, you know, when everything crashes, and burns, I can, I can create whatever path I like. And I didn't even realize I needed to until this crash happened. And now I have that opportunity. So it is. it's such a beautiful space, to create something when I say create something entirely new, I mean, I'm talking a new identity, you take everything you like, about you and about whatever and you leave behind everything that doesn't serve. So that transformation piece is the step by step process of facing your fears and slaying your dragons and dealing with these painful, uncomfortable emotions, and deciding who you want to be at the end of it. You know, there's a version of you so healthy, so healed, so whole, so strong. And when we settle for the old, we never birth the new. 

Ari Gronich

7:40

Hmm, I like that. So, as I listen to you, right, I think of what the audience is thinking? What is the audience hearing? What are they? What are they needing right now? And because I think, you know, we basically told people, you're gonna be really, really uncomfortable for a little while. Right? And what's gonna come out on the end of that is, who knows, you get to create it. So let's talk about some modeling. Right? Yeah, for creation that doesn't include the comparison models that we're used to have. I'm comparing what I want and what I'm going to build for myself in this new person. And we're not going to compare to Madonna and to Jay Z, and to Elon Musk, and to all those other people we're going to, we're going to build from scratch. So how do we build from scratch? When all we have our comparisons to go by?

Debi Silber

8:49

Yeah. It's a great question. I think when you cut the comparison it is just the death of your creativity. That's the first thing. The second thing I would say is and listen, I gave birth four times it hurt. But look what you get at the end, right? So yes, we try to avoid this discomfort, you're not going through it for no reason. And I tell everybody in the Institute, this is the hardest, but the most rewarding work you'll ever do. You're not doing this for no reason. You're not doing this just because you want to punish yourself further. You've been through the hardest part of it already. This is the part you owe to yourself. But to find out who you are at your physical, mental, emotional best at your personal professional best. It's gonna take some work. And that's why, you know, people who come into our community, they're like, they realize this is not just like a support group. No, no, you're here to get your job done period. And that those are the only people I attract. But to answer your question, you didn't go through this to model anybody. You did this to discover who you are meant to be the highest and best version of Have you? You know, what, if you without your limiting beliefs without your old habits, without your old rules, with all of that out of the way? Who are you? Who are you? Right? That's what that's what's left to discover. That's what's available to you.

Ari Gronich

10:19

And, and to make that into an adventure rather than another chore. So here's, what I hear, you know, like, from, if I'm looking at clients that I've had patients in the past, right is, holy shit, I already have a job. That's a whole other job. And that's going to take that's even more important than the job that is making me money and sustaining me finding time. So Time, time and organization, time for the work time for regular work time for relaxation, recovery, rejuvenation, self-care, all those things. So let's talk about that. Because there's got to be balance here for the audience, right? There's got to be a way to, for them to go. Okay, I was overwhelmed. And now I'm.

Debi Silber

11:07

Alright. And here's the thing, your changes? They're based on you, you know, do you want those changes to be slow and gradual? Do you want them to be drastic? It's completely up to you as anything you do every action has a behavior thought you have takes you in only one of two directions, further or closer to the body health, life, lifestyle relationships you want? Which way are your actions taking you. So if you're the type that needs a slower, more gradual approach, beautiful, then just do that. It's, it's the people who say, Oh, that's just going to be too much work. Forget it. I mean, if the only reason we do something is because it's easy. What do you really expect, you know, think about anybody who's, who's in really great shape, they're working at it, anybody who has a great relationship, they're working at it, anybody who's great at their job, they're working at it, there are plenty of people who are unwilling to put in the effort in that area. Okay. But then be okay with just okay. If you want something good, it's, it's just gonna take the effort. And, and what I find too, is a lot of people stuck in stage three, it's not that life is so bad. They figured it out. It's okay. You know, it's like, they have their partner comes home at the end of the day, their kids aren't failing in school, they can button their pants, you know what I mean? to them? It's like, but it's okay. Okay, but what about all that they could have, if they were just a little more willing to turn up the heat just a bit.

Ari Gronich

12:44

So that willingness that you're talking about me is part of the trauma and the pain, right. So how does one get past and beyond the two parameters, right? Have you? I am traumatized, and I'm willing to be more traumatized on the way out? So that I could get through? Yeah, but that's a personality that says, Bring it on, right? So how do you develop that personality to bring it on? real transformation brings on. 

Debi Silber

13:25

You're not feeling that in the very beginning. Like I said, in the very beginning, getting out of bed, maybe all you can do and that's plenty. And then, you know, you get a little bit stronger and a little bit stronger and a little bit stronger. You're not, you're not fresh out of your betrayal saying, okay, you know, let's take on the world. No, you're not there's too much to process. But willingness is, it's just I love that word. Because with willingness, you will at whatever pace you're you can handle continuously move forward. And it's interesting, too, because in the study, like I said, there were three groups who didn't heal. One group that did not heal was completely unwilling to accept their scenario. They just weren't having it. They were like the people, you know, standing at the lot where their house one said, they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna kick and scream and mourn the loss of my house. They have every right to, but they didn't move. It's the ones who say, I don't know what it's gonna look like, but it's got to be better than this. You know, and so often, you need a little extra incentive. And so, you know, if you have kids, it's a beautiful opportunity. They're watching you, if you don't do it for for you, you do it for them. Like, you know, in my own instance, my kids, my kids saw me and I was like, I wasn't gonna burden them but I wasn't gonna hold you know, like, withhold the truth. They knew the truth. So they they saw mom crash, they were gonna see mom rise. And I said, it's, I have no idea what's gonna show up here. I love you. And I'll do the best I can give me a little bit of a pass. And I didn't know what it was gonna look like, but it's a willingness. You don't have to be all ferocious about it, but just just willing to keep going.

Ari Gronich

15:09

Right. But I like what you just said, as well. Give the warning to the people around you too. Right? He said, People around me, I have had this experience. And it may take me a little while. Let me go beyond that. What did you ask them to do for you? If anything?

Debi Silber

15:28

Yeah, you know, I guess maybe it was a unique scenario, because my husband was actually the one who told my kids. So, you know, I think on some level, they were it was like, Teen Mom there for a while. But I just, I really my only intention. During that time, I really went from like, kids, clients, you know, dogs, crash kids, that was it. And, and I just told them, I'm not working with a full deck here, right now, I'll do the best I can. But don't ever think for a second, this has anything to do with you. And I just, I kept talking to all of them. I mean, any, any parent will know your kids are so different. You can like I have four kids, they couldn't be more different than one another. And they each needed me in their own way. And I would try to be there as best I could, in the way that they needed. But I was very honest. You know, letting them know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not good today. I'm doing the best I can. But it has nothing to do with you.

Ari Gronich

16:34

So for people who are going through betrayal as an acute, right, it's acute, it's not chronic, it hasn't been a long time. It's just really this is Give me like, give the audience kind of your I know, you have the steps that what? Step one, I just got into this experience? Do I share it with people? Do I stay and hide in myself, you know, like. 

Debi Silber

17:09

These are the questions that come up, it's so common to protect the betrayer at our own expense, you know, because let's say they're well known, they're well liked the whole family, I don't want to shake the you know, shake things up. So we, you know, there's also so much shame, here we are, we've just been put in a club we never wanted to be and we're so embarrassed, we're so ashamed. We didn't even do this, and we're ashamed. Right. So and then there's the immediacy of, of just life, things that are happening. So it really depends on the person, they need a trusted other. And by that I mean, whether that is the right type of support, you know, a trusted friend, trusted family member. And then they, you know, there are certain things that are more immediate than others, if they're in danger, they need to get out of danger. If they're not sure about any of their finances, they need to figure that out. So you know, that's a priority. If it's just emotional support, that's a priority. Everyone is, is fresh out of their experience needing something, you know, one is different than the next. So it's meeting that initial need, but also, what I find is they need to know, you're not crazy, you're not alone, and you can heal from all of it.

Ari Gronich

18:23

Awesome. What is your suggestion for somebody who has gone through the transformation? They're there at the end of stage five. And they're looking off into the distance, so to speak. Yeah. And anything is possible. Right? They can create their new tomorrow today, they can activate their vision for a better world. Let's talk about those steps. Because I think that those are the steps that sometimes get really lost within the heaviness of those first three.

Debi Silber

19:10

Yeah, yeah. That is such a fun stage, we actually have a level of membership just for that type of person who is at that stage. That's where the fun begins. That's where you create that new body, that new business, that's when you're ready for that new relationship. That's when you're ready for that, you know, all of those things when you are carrying around like this 500-pound boulder of pain, and you put it down, look what's available to you. That's when you strategically, you know, move towards what lights you up. And you may have had no clue what it was until you get to that stage five, but that's when we usually see it in the community so often. That's when someone is a coach, a healer or a doctor therapist, they want to become one of our certified Coaches because they're so excited. It's like, they just want to pass it forward. But others, that's when they write the book, that's when they're committed to this new, you know, this new business idea that they thought was crazy. But now they have the confidence for it, that's when they're ready for that new relationship, they're ready to move, whatever it is, we never know what's gonna show up then. But when you're at that place, that's when you start planning for it. That's where it gets really exciting.

Ari Gronich

20:26

Awesome. What, what do you say is like, the biggest impact not just the individual, but like, let's say your community, we take your community, your, your institute, right. And we extrapolate the impact from your institute, how many people you've seen and how many people they know, and how many people they know, and yada, yada, right? Let's extrapolate this into so that people can get a sense of how powerful they are.

Debi Silber

20:59

Yeah. You know, even when you just look at one person, take one mom, right? Here's this mom, she's been blind, like, Look, at my own experience. I have four kids, right. So when you think about it, here's my experience through healing, that impacts four kids who now have amazing coping skills, because they've seen firsthand what healing looks like, right? Now. Think of the people that each of them know their partners, you see. So that's just one, this is me. So imagine how many how many people between the people that you touch just throughout your day? Where we're, you know, they're like, What? You look good? What anything new, you forget just healed from the most traumatic thing ever. Right? Or how it affects the kids how it affects, you know, a new partner or that same new improved? partner, right? It's endless, the new businesses that are started because of it, the new, it's it, I can go on and on?

Ari Gronich

22:02

Yeah, you know, I look at what it is that I really want in this world, right? You know, I talk a lot about creating a new tomorrow, I talk a lot about health, and science and fixing the systems that are kind of broken. And you know, how people can stop doing behaviors that not only harm themselves, but also harm their community and their family and their people around them. Right? And I look at this one statement, you can't love anybody more than you love yourself. And I always have found, like, felt like that is a false statement. I've always been able to love everyone else more than I've loved myself. Right. And I think that's true about most everybody. And I think that that golden rule is a little bit switched as well. Like, we don't want people to treat us the way we treat ourselves. We want just the way others. You know, treat us.So let's talk a little bit about that. And how we get that internal self-talk, how we get those things. Kind of dialed a little bit down so that we can really truly have that freedom.

Debi Silber

23:21

Yeah, I have a bit of a different perspective. And I guess I see so many. So many people come into the Institute, they're chronic people pleasers. And what they're doing is they're giving love, so that they get love in return. And that's not, it's not sustainable. It's not real. All it does is it's exhausting. But I do believe that we have to love ourselves first. Because if you do, you have so much more to give, you're giving without trying it's oozing out of you. It's a different energy. One is I'm going to give so you give me back. It's a lack of scarcity. And the other is its abundance. And, and everything is energy. And we feel that we feel that. So I feel like whatever work needs to be done, so that we're coming from that really full space, the and it happens when you do this kind of work. It just does. Because you'll like, you know, the version of me from years ago, I was so harsh and so critical and so judgmental. You know, now, I'm like, I really like me, we even have a new rule in the house. And I used to be so hard on myself. And then post betrayal. I decided, you know what, when I do, let's say I always get lost wherever I go, you know, and I used to just criticize myself in whatever. Now anything I do like that. I'm just adorable. And everybody has to say this that I am. You know, it's like, that's the thing and what we're doing is we're giving ourselves some grace, giving ourselves the love that we want. How much better is it when you just give it to yourself? It just he can't help but give it to others. When you do that. 

Ari Gronich

25:01

Yeah. I always tell people when I get lost I'm not lost. I'm just adventurous. You know, so yeah, so I appreciate you so much for coming on. Is there anything else you'd like to leave the audience with anything? You know deep dark dirty that they could do today tomorrow and start right now themselves to create that new tomorrow today?

Debi Silber

25:27

Yeah, I would say I mean it really finds out that I have shared the stage, see where you are. And at the very least, get the trust again book but at least you know, or take the quiz. Take the quiz to see to what extent you're struggling. They can just find that at the PBT Institute. com forward slash quiz. But don't stay stuck. Don't stay stuck. You owe it to yourself. You owe it to yourself to heal. And I promise you you're going to be blown away by who you meet on the other side.

Ari Gronich

25:57

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. It's been a great episode. I think we have a lot of good information, a lot of takeaways for the audience. And just want to say thank you again, so much for coming on, and providing so much wisdom for the audience. This is Yeah, this has been another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I'm your host, our Ari Gronich. I love these conversations that get dark and dirty and deep and help you guys with tips and tricks to change your life and your future and the future of our children. So anyway, thank you so much for being here and we are out. I'll see you next time.

Tracy Lamourie Founder LAMOURIE MEDIA an Award Winning Publicist has been featured in Rolling Stone, NBC, CBC, HuffPost and here with us today to talk about how Self confidence can lead to success. 

Ari Gronich

0:03

Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Tracy Lamourie. Tracy is a PR expert who I'm going to not even read her like her normal intro, I'm gonna let her tell you about it. But this woman made her career by taking about 20 years or so of her life, and setting free an innocent man who was on death row. So hey, you know, I'm gonna let her tell you a little bit about that story. And then we'll get into an awesome conversation that hopefully will help you create a new tomorrow for yourself, activate your vision for a better world, do something big in your life, like Tracy has. So Tracy, let's uh, let's get into it. Tell us a little bit about you.

TL

Tracy Lamourie

0:47

Hi, there. So yeah, I'm based in Canada, I'm Canadian girl working usually internationally around the world, when it's not the middle of COVID. We're on the other side of that level. So our borders are a little slow and opening up. So I've been here, no basement doing my magic. So I'm an international award winning publicist, working across borders and across industries. And for people who don't really know what that is, is basically getting people in the news getting people elevating their profile, whether they're entrepreneurs, executives, musicians, creatives, authors, all that. But this just happened for me because of a natural kind of, I should never say natural. But what I started doing it for 20 years, I ended up here. And so all the VIP parties and all the travel and all the super cool, amazing things that go with being a publicist, were in my original plan, I was originally an activist in my 20s with my husband, Dave, Markinson, married 26 years now we've done all this together, starting with a little radio show in Toronto a long, long time ago to college radio. And then when that was no more was the early days of the internet, we still wanted to have a voice, you know, to change the world, to, you know, make things more equal, like you know, all those things that you're passionate about in your 20s. But I'm still passionate about today. And we found out just in a little curved corner of the early into the early interwebs. About a man named Jimmy Dennis would aid for this little add on line. And he's with being a I'm on death row. I'm not looking for a pen pal, I'm not looking for a girlfriend. Because a lot of those preserving unpolished Western, I'm innocent, and I need help. So my husband and I, we wouldn't be like I want it to be. And if people asked us what made you actually write, we actually wrote a letter we wrote to him and said to tell us more. And I think partly because obviously we were activists, but also we had that radio show not long before, we were still in that information gathering. And so we put pen to paper and we said tell us about it. And we wrote a letter into death row. And he wrote back with a 28 when we were 28 years old, and he was 27. Even back with a 28 page letter on both sides. And all the legal documents that was in the cell breaking down the hope is that there was no brochures or pamphlets or websites or anything. And we got this and what do we do? People said Don't you know, how did you? Why did you do what you did? But again, why don't we write that letter? We wrote the letter. And then once we did, here's a person who wrote back, you know, 28 pages, who's clearly desperate and needs help. So what do you do with that? You just say it was a fun read, you know? So obviously we like, Oh, well, gee, what are we like? We have to do something about it. We had no money we had no, I wasn't a publicist, we certainly weren't lawyers. But we thought, Well, if we're this upset, reading just this much, you know, maybe we can put it on these interwebs and somebody who has the ability, somebody who has money, maybe somebody will buy a lawyer as we originally thought. So we started doing that. And ultimately, we ended up being disturbed by the death penalty in general in America through looking at that case. So there we were 28 years old. This is how I learned to write a press release. I literally went to the AltaVista precursor to Google and learn you know, for immediate release out of right that it was really hard to get attention for a case that was you know, someone was still convicted in America and in those days it was before making a murderer or was before all the wrongful conviction, serial and all those podcasts before all that so we had the internet we had the you know, email and everything but it wasn't easy. So the way that we decided to address that because it's like we were little mini publicist before we even knew PR was well if we talked about the death penalty in general as opposed to just this case and use this case as an example then maybe we'll get a more media. So we did that. We wrote up press releases for immediate release. And literally there were 28, 29 years old on CNN again we have no legal experience no PR experience not very much Media Group. And then we were on CNN on MSNBC on port TV on panel. With lawyers being interviewed by Katherine Grier, by Nancy Grace, by lay Oh my god. So it will took another 11 or 12 years, that was just, you know, not for profit, volunteer. By the way, Jimmy Dennis was freed in 29th 2017, we talk almost every day in these amazing things going on with him. He's an R&B artist now. So that's when your listeners should check that out, because the whole other story, but, you know, in terms of it another 11 years before I thought, Hey, hold on a second, because I was just in telesales, I could probably, you know, not have a life I hate, I could probably not to sit here doing sales reps were like, the skills that I built, dealing with media are actually valuable skills. And then I thought, that's my thought, like the transition and you know, help people who don't understand how to get into media, get into media, and that's when I was 41, 10 years ago, it became a business.

AG

Ari Gronich

5:55

Nice. So I'm going to unpack this a little bit. Am a unpack for you a little bit. So first of all, you know, I love this story, because it reminds me of one of my favorite stories, which is the story of Hurricane Carter. And I don't know what it is about you Canadians coming down here thinking you're going to save, you know, all the American people, but I do. I mean, I appreciate the thought, you know, it's just, it's funny to me that, exactly, exactly. But here's the question, what is it that Canada breeds into the people that makes them say, Go read it, you know, say a book of Hurricane Carter's or a little post on a little website on a brand-new thing called the inter-webs, with Bolton board services. I mean, what it wasn't like you had google it was bulletin boards and things. I mean, what made what is it that makes you do that? And that's anybody I'm joking about the Canada America?

TL

Tracy Lamourie

7:05

Well, I think what I always say to that, because I mean, you can't tell the story, I know when other sounding heroic and epic and all that stuff, right. And so I always bring dial that back because I'm not heroic or epic more than anybody else's. And this is where I say that like, even though I did that thing, right? I think that more people would do stuff like that all the time. Canadians, Americans, whoever, everybody would, instead of watching Netflix, whatever, if, if, if they actually believed they could, but people don't think how do you know, maybe I was we were naive. We were a bit when I was that kid. In hurricane you, I was privileged to meet Ruben several times, towards the end of his life, he moved to Canada, right. And so and I didn't even TV, that connection in those days about how the Canadian like, I didn't even see that even though we were watching the movie and stuff. But I think more it's a matter of feeling empowered, you know, whether you're too dumb to know, you can't make a difference or feel that you know, you can, because you've been you've done it before in other rounds. That's what I think it all comes down to self-belief and that, you know, and not like, Hey, I can do this. But to think we’ll wait, you know, I can do my little part, I can take a step I can make the difference. If I do this, maybe somebody else to pick it up and do this. I never thought at 28 years old, I was going to be able to free that guy from death row. But I kind of did. I kind of did think so I thought that the world would free and I thought if we if we made it known, if we did our little part, which was words, people would find out and then it didn't go quite that way. Because a lot of opposition, they don't want to be bound up. They don't really want unraveled the truth once you start, you know, but so there's a lot bit it was a bigger beast than we thought. Right? We thought we just have to pointed out and then we were fighting a bigger battle that we even knew we were. So those things intimidate people and you don't feel like you can make a difference, right? But same reason people don't start a business or they dream of going to travel but they never do it. It's because they ultimately thought that they don't see themselves doing it. It's easy, easier to not do it. You know what I mean? Like it's not, it's just because I'm better. I was dumb enough or like hubris enough where to be like, you know what we can do we can do here and then you see that you can make a difference. And as you do those things, you're like, Whoa, look what we just did. And that gives you the confidence and the whatever to keep doing it.

AG

Ari Gronich

9:24

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I was gonna ask you how being an activism how being an activist is akin to capitalism. Because I think that a lot of people think that they're opposing forces. And I think that they're marriable, right, that they have that the two things go together really well. Doing good, makes a lot of money when done right kind of thing. And so you've been able to in your career pivot from activism into capitalism a bit. And that was, the next thing I wanted to unpack with you is that transition, you started it with belief in self. And I just want to, like, I want to emphasize that for people right, you have to do the work on yourself. So that you have belief in yourself so that you have blind faith, that what you are doing is going to make a difference in the world. And so I just wanted to emphasize that and then have you unpacked in it. 

TL

Tracy Lamourie

10:37

Once you do that, you do it, right, because you're when you're like, Okay, I can do that. Why wouldn't you I really, truly believe that people, you know, people are good, like I am, Frank said, I still believe good in people. And it's true. You know, most people will help you know, if there's someone in front of them that starving, you're gonna give them a sandwich, most people that are you know, they're going to, so it's just that they don't feel like they have the power to make an impact. So we don't even try to make an impact. And that's the same as in our own personal lives and doing these other benefit ourselves as it is, you know, why don't more people be the starving children or help this whatever. So I always say that because like, it's hugely epic, you know what I mean? Like, I know, you can't, like how can you tell that story without and people want to applaud you and be like, awesome. Oh, my God, you thought that I was gonna know. But the point of it, the whole point of it is not the applauded point of it is for you guys to realize this dumb ass girl with no, I'm a brilliant blah, blah, blah, strategic publicist, you can see my list of you know, whatever behind me and my alarm, right. But when I was 20s, you know, there, I'm just basic yo with the red hair. When I said to myself do what can I do? I don't have any money. I don't have any. But doesn't matter. I had the passion. And I had this, you know, an out of that, look, I built this. I never even met you. Now this weird rear is developed, which I you know, wow. You know. But again, it took a long time for me to think of that. Yeah, that was part of the strategic this. It wasn't like I went from that goal of not button this high profile, I'm not going to turn it into money. We were doing that for like, it was like a decade after we did TV that I was still doing all the sales, still doing all that we just really focused on getting a better death row. And then it wasn't until like, a couple years before we got out when we realized, yeah, it's happening. That's like, wait a minute, when they literally booked to make another phone call for my crappy job. And I'm thinking I wish I could remember what I was thinking the minute before that, like, clearly remember that Revelation where I'm like, wait, wait, wait, I think that's the publicist. I'm not doing this anymore. And then from that moment, I literally went and looked into how can I get freelance work as publicist, because I have this history of doing that I get paid. I wish remember what I was gonna, what I was thinking the moment before that. 

AG

Ari Gronich

12:48

You're probably thinking, I've got to make another call. It's the breath at the end. You know, nobody can see the breath on the audio. But if you're watching the YouTube, you can see the breath, right? alright. You know, it's funny, I, you know, the revelation moment. I know, for me, being a healer, being in my industry was I was dead. And then I woke up in a hospital and I sat up and I said, I think I need to be a healer. Right. That was my, it was a pretty freakin’ clear revelation moment. But I have no idea what was happening in my head before that.

TL

Tracy Lamourie

13:39

I really wish because I mean, so clearly, I remember that going. Nowhere. And from that moment where I remember it is I didn't make another call. I might have made one more call, by the way. I remember it is I was like, Oh, yeah, no, no, I started searching. And I found Elance. That's how I first started Upwork. Now, I first started, I used to get flipper lines on that until I just started getting transitioning to your LinkedIn. But yeah, so from what I remember, is that literally with no, I'm not doing that anymore. And then was and then I was like, I think they call that a publicist. Okay. Now I'm a publicist. And then pretty quickly, I got a client and one of them was there, like I think I told you before, Angela Sadler Williamson when Rosa Parks cousin. Who wrote the book, like, oh, sorry, that movie, my life is rosy for adults, which is on amazon prime. And this week, was like nominate was nominee, whatever it is, for me. And that was my first you know, one of my first proceed and that's when I was like, Okay, I guess I'm in the game. You know, me. 

AG

Ari Gronich

14:43

So, here's something. You've been saying. I want to unpack that too, is you thought of it and then you did it. Right. You, you thought of it and then you started doing actions. You thought I can do this. And then you started making actions towards it. A lot of people think I could do something, I have this great idea. I wanted to do this, oh, man, I saw that I created this thing I'm seeing out now I created that 10 years ago. Why didn't I do it? Why didn't I do it? So all of those things, you know, go through my mind when I hear you saying, well, I just did this. And then, and then I started writing. And then I went on to Upwork, or, you know, Elance, and I put my ad out, and then I, these are all action steps that you're doing. Right? So people like, I used to get really upset at the law of attraction, because I felt like they missed this step, the action step. And so people were like, “Well, I made my vision board. And nothing.”

TL

Tracy Lamourie

15:47

Such way I always say you can do all that then act in a chord.

AG

Ari Gronich

15:59

Act in accord. Exactly. So this is where, where the thing you want to do becomes live becomes alive right. So let's.

TL

Tracy Lamourie

16:09

How I know how people say fake it till you make it. I hate that because I'm very genuine. I don't like fake it till you make it as this wrong message. But I get what they're trying to say with that. And so what I would I say with that is from the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is don't dream it, be it? Have you ever heard anybody talk about Rocky Horror Picture Show in a business? Because you know, I can't afford No, but seriously, it's just a life lesson. But I always love that don't dream it be it. So it's the same as I get you know, it's the saying. If you want to make it you don't fake it till you make it. Be it. Started it, do it. Take a step. Now you're in, you want to write a book, don't just think about write a page. Oh, look at me writing. Now you're ready. You know what I need? Like me? Well, I took that step. I made that freelance or whatever upward page. And then I you know, put myself out there. And then I got a reply. And oh my god, I got that one client, that one like I got and just started Williamson. And actually a Kennedy person, one of the crazy, one of my first client on Upwork. Back then, which is not even touched now was like a member of Academy can remember that story of the Kennedy, brother or cousin or somebody that had murdered the girl in Connecticut in the 70s. As about 10 years ago, there was something going on with the legal situation. And because of my history and the death penalty stuff, right? When I had my contract there, they saw that until we were looking for somebody to write the words for a web page for Michael's Skakel. So I worked and it was Kennedy family member and I've you know, ever the name right now. But it was legit, on Upwork and great. People are on that Upwork by the way. Like, I mean, I've literally got Rosa Parks cousin and the Kennedy hired me on that. And so that was just like a little short project at the time. Like it was like a what? But I mean, you know, so then I'm like, Okay, hold on. You can do it. That was not easy. I was a freelancer. I didn't even have all these accolades. I had, I was good at what I guess I did plan on the history of what I'd done for the, you know, I had been on CNN, media messaging and got us on CNN. It wasn't just like it was pointed successes. But still, that's very quickly on to your point. And I said, I was gonna do it. I went on there and did it. All of a sudden, I worked with Rosa Parks cousin, Emma Kennedy.

AG

Ari Gronich

18:24

Crazy, isn't it? Yeah, well, just do it. I go back to the risky business, you know, movie, and the line that Tom Cruise is famous for saying, which is every now and then you just gotta say what the fuck. Do it? And you know, it's funny, because here's what here's what the audience is. Forget, you know, not hearing right. Is that the thing that's stopping us from just doing it? There is a thing that is an actual thing stopping us from doing stuff. Right. Now I call it trauma. And then the resulting behaviors and automatic patterns because of the trauma, fear, you know, distrust, not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy, all those kinds of things. Right. Sounds to me, like you act beyond fear, right? In some level, even though you're experiencing it, possibly. So how did you get to a place where you could act despite maybe the fears and the traumas and the things that were possibly coming your way? Because a lot of what people want to do these days is go up against the systems like I do, go up against the systems as they are. This is going to spark a lot of their fear barrier, right from just doing it. So why don't we talk a little bit about that?

TL

Tracy Lamourie

20:09

Yeah, I don't know if I have a perfect answer for that. That's a really good question. I think I'm, you know, trying to think as you asked, where, when I started being like that, but I think about I mean, I've always been, it's funny, I think back to the conversation I had when I was 15, and my best friend, Jennifer, and we, cuz I was gonna say, I've always been super confident. But at the same time, I've always been like, anybody not confident I was, you know, the fat, fat girl, you know? So with all of that, that's, you know, I always see that now. But I never want to even use those words here a couple years ago, because I was so like, if I don't say anything, maybe nobody will notice. You know, it was, like, if I would come up with a TV show, I leave the room because I didn't even look at it. You know what I mean? It goes, so that shows you I was hugely unconfident about that in my presence in a room and all that. And yet, in spite of that, even at 15, I was like, yeah, whatever, you know. So I remember a conversation, my friend about this kind of thing at 15, which teenagers are more, you know, smarter than you think they are really resonant and smart to me Even now, right? I don't remember when Jennifer or me that said this, but when we were talking about this, you know, in the conversation, and we were talking about how like, we're insecure, she was like, mean that we were insecure, we know, we're secure in our insecurities, like, you know, whatever. Like, I don't care and in some way, you know what I mean? Like, like, Is it because maybe because of that, you know, thinking people are gonna judge me, whatever. And we see time I'm smart, and strategic and whatever. And that the confidence was inquisitive, confidence, or lack of confidence. And let me say, Oh, I don't care anyway. I'm just gonna do it. You know what I'm saying? Was that super confident? Or was it that I wasn't confident? I figured that they, you know, I wouldn't be accepted or wouldn't be like them, I wouldn't be where I couldn't be the pretty blonde girl, like, you know, anyway, so whatever. So this is what you get. And then I became super confident than that. And that's been everything because like, like, people who knew me back then, when I say, I wasn't confident as a teenager, they're like, oh, if I say I was shy as a teenager, like, you were never shy. I'm like really, Oh, that's interesting. So it's like, I think I always just, you know, whether it was natural to me at the time, or whether it became natural, because now it's super natural born and even, whatever, I don't care, you know, and that is a free and you know, it's funny, I read recently, a 50 Click way after this is my personality in Psychology Today, not long ago, or maybe it was the New Yorker, but it was something and it was it was saying that there was a point you know, like, it's almost like you know, that old What are they used to call people? like they would say they're not neurotic. Eccentric. 

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Ari Gronich

22:49

Eccentric. Okay. Right. Well, they only said that about the wealthy people.

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Tracy Lamourie

22:54

I was just gonna say that when you add a certain level, whether it was wealth meal days, or even now I would like now it could be in your socials or your that what? social welfare, the credit, whatever, your that all of a sudden, what looks weird. Oh, like when you walk, when I'm 21 walking, run off the crazy red air, how she thinks she's gonna get hired, you know, whenever a little girl go, what looks weird, then, when you got this credibility behind you and you're able to, even if they don't know that, at that certain point, they start to think, Oh, Jesus, that person who carries them stuff like that with that confidence. But that's like, my husband's got crazy, long curly hair, like a rock star, right? And then I got the bright red. Here we go places where people don't even know about, like, they don't know why the publishers they don't know whenever. And they're looking at us. And we walk in the room. And it's funny, because I guess because it But the interesting thing is we carry ourselves now the following combination of the crazy Look, the red hair and the curly hair. But now that we're 50 and have all this stuff behind us, even if you don't know that we carry ourselves with a confidence that you know, you wouldn't maybe expect from the crazy red haired girl or the guy with the curly hair. Right? So that right there has, I think, happens all the time that we're like, that's so weird. Like, they don't know what we do. They don't know about Hollywood, they don't know. We just literally walk somewhere and like some rubbing be like, Oh, you guys, what do you do? We're like, we have that vibe now. Like, I don't understand. But I think that's what it is. Because we look up. We don't look at the average 50 year olds. So clearly, and we're clearly not bums. So then clearly you're somebody because otherwise why would you just have a suit and tie and look like you know what I mean? So it's a weird, like, backslash.

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Ari Gronich

24:34

I think 60 something years old is the age of I don't give a shit. Right. But I mean, in just in general amongst the crowd, like, they'll, you know, I hear them talking, so to speak, and they're whispering Oh, yeah, I could toot in public now. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like the age where just Ah, Let it all you know.

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Tracy Lamourie

25:02

Maybe just a confidence thing when you realize no you know what all that was just stupid with me sitting there worrying about everybody. Maybe you finally realize what I tell people what just stop being so stressed out when you walk into the room you think that everybody in the room is thinking about a little Oh, you Well, that's a lot of arrogance and clapping. Am not arrogant. Sure you are! People sure you are you just think that everybody's thinking about you, you know, realize that everybody's roosting with their own crap their own worry their own, you know? And if there's some asshole, and they're just thinking about tearing you down, then that's good to know that you don't want to deal with them. Anyway, that's Thanks for letting me know about you what you like.

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Ari Gronich

25:35

Right. So deconstructing the societal norms is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. So I don't, I didn't tell you any of this stuff on our pre interview because I wanted you to go. Alright. Okay, so deconstructing social norms, because here's the thing. There's this guy is in your industry way, way, way long before you were. He's called the father of spin, Doctor Bernays. He was the cousin to Freud. And he's the guy who created propaganda. Okay. Yeah, he created propaganda. In general, he was the guy that created mindcom after. And like said, his psychology was his cousin was Freud. And he basically said that people are sheep and there's a select few that know what the people need and then the publicity and advertising industry was born, to tell people what it was that they needed to direct them in to a direction like sheep, right. So that was the father of your industry. As publicist. There's a lot of manipulation of people's societal norms. So I want to know how we can manipulate people societal norms, so that they are fearless in the face of fear so that they act beyond their belief maybe in themselves, like you did. So I just wanted to like, surprise you. It's a little.

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Tracy Lamourie

27:14

No, I think that's true. And I'm glad you mention that, because I always think I always love that kind of PR. I do needs PR. Because it's true when you say PR, even me when I say when you say public relations. Like that's my call my when I rebranded incorporated, my company was called the Maury PR and media, which was originally my PR and marketing when it started with Kimbo marketing. And I was like, oh, what if I don't get that PR club, but I never even did any marketing. So when I was incorporated, I change it to Lemori media, because there was like, Well, you know, I never went public relations. And so you know, and also we're media content creation company, and we're gonna be doing more of that, but also public relations, I think it's a bad fit. Because when you think about it, you think about like, the Spin Doctors., the guy that stand up in front of, you know, for politicians, or whenever, or for a company that's done something wrong, or they you know, had a big bad media thing,

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Ari Gronich

28:16

O you know, the president of secretaries or, you know.

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Tracy Lamourie

28:21

With the language or you know, immediate or like, maybe non various example, click on TV, it would be like a public health campaign, you know, where they need to get much information out to where that is the situation where you're talking about, they specifically want people to act in a certain way. So they're putting up a news, ask, you know, like, what you see with COVID is a perfect example.

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Ari Gronich

28:46

I didn't, I didn't say anything about COVID at all. 

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Tracy Lamourie

28:49

And I don't like to go into that either. Because I'm not even I don't have a strong opinion about it, because I like to have a need to please what I know a lot.

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Ari Gronich

28:55

Yeah. And I like having my YouTube channel. 

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Tracy Lamourie

28:58

You know, so, no, yeah. And I'm not even going either direction on me personally, I have it. Because, again, in general about the world, I like to know a lot of things before I start spouting off, I like to really be confident, and when it comes to all that I have not coffee, I don't know anything on either side. But just strictly as an example of not what would that would be true, not none of that just like, you know, or let's make up let's not call it COVID. Let's say there's a public health be, you know, a public health emergency. See, everybody's gonna This is gonna happen if people do that, you know, so they want to get into massive information or something like that. Yeah. But what are the what I reinvented for the PR school, I didn't even meet a publicist till recently. I never read a book on PR. I started messaging to get the word out about that one. So to me what I have done in my career, what I call PR with, you know, in the services that I provide for my clients, I don't you know, it's funny because LA clients intimidating fire, their Hollywood publicist, for me on whether to work together like this. You do things that no other publicist does. And I'm not saying that you say I'm better because I invented this in my head, you know what I mean? I didn't go to school and learn with the perimeters of what a publicist does for their client is, to me if your public image, it's always what I would do for myself. I want to get you an award shows I want to get you needy, I want to get your message out there, right. So I call it I do elevating and celebrating some PR, good PR spin day. But actually, that literally came out of me in a podcast, we were having a conversation like this. So podcasting was like I'm really wanted you to know, I normally wouldn't have otherwise gone, because my show is all about the jet. But I really liked your vibe, and I listened. He was just he was saying the same thing. And I was like, but really, it's more about elevating everything. I just talked about that. But that's true. That's what I like people already doing amazing things, whether they're creatives, whether they're entrepreneurs, whether they may not even realize how amazing the things they're doing are and I'm like, why aren't you getting quoted about that? Why are you so literally my job is what I do is I find people writers who deserve to be heard and find ways to get them heard people that aren't looking at and I find ways to break that barrier for them so that they can we can get into media. I wasn't surprised I used to be a punk Ari, but you know, Jello Biafra. You know, from Dead Kennedys? No punk days. Oh, my God. Kennedy's came up twice in this conversation. What's?

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Ari Gronich

31:26

In there all the dead Dead Kennedys, the dead and the Dead Kennedys,

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Tracy Lamourie

31:30

Right in. Jello Biafra said if you don't like the mean, don't hate the media become the media in the 80s. They rave for all this? And I was like, yeah, so I am the media. We are all the media. In some ways. That's the problem these days. Because, you know, some people are just starting off and whenever That's it, but but you know, in through the mainstream media, what I find is that, like, I stay away from that stuff, specifically, because I don't like to work. You know, when I used to be a township, Politico, because I was an optimist. I thought, you know, I'm passionate about something that I thought were gonna change things, I would use my skills for politics, in the days before I was getting paid for stuff. Now, I really don't want you and I won't say never, because maybe somebody will follow me, I will. They'll convince me that they're God's greatest gift to you know, activists, and they really do mean, but I like to stay away from politics, not because people are bad, because the system is so corrupt, there's an even though you know, the best person going into that shitstorm, they're not going to be able to do what they want to do, they're not going to be able to so it's very, I don't want to sell my professional reputation. But I'm an activist, and I came from this, you know what I mean, I didn't come from, like, I want to always, I want the activist that I was in my 20s to always be proud of this corporate chick in my 50s. Like he said, at the beginning that different you know, I even recently I came from that mindset, I still have to convince myself sometimes I get Oh, yeah, it's funny our people we have doesn't mean your evil hate. Because it's true. Like the corporate is always like, you know, Mr. Burns on The Simpsons, or whenever in a dark, it's always you know, that. So as an activist, you think anybody in business, clearly, they're just money oriented. They don't care about all this stuff. It's almost been a revelation continues to be revolutionary, as I am, you know, higher and higher in business, and my circles and wider and wider, more people with money, you're in my circle, and more big people with bigger money and all that. And then I tell my story of podcasters are a huge, huge, you know, corporate business guys. And they're like, almost crying during them as well, if you actually do care, but they weren't listening before. How can they listen? So now I'm like, now I'm at a place. So I learned so much doing this, you know, like, what stuff you said, to the perceptions that were wrong about you what they thought was wrong, but actually what I thought was wrong with people. So really, we are all really confused about each other and our motivations, whether it comes to like, the right and the left and you know, people I think are bad because I'm a hardcore anti race, that would not have been my table and all that. Even though I have to remind myself people are people and they're not always working on the same motivation that we think they're working on to them. It's like you said fear, or misunderstanding or whatever. And if you prefer and break those things down, so that since it is important to break things, into the PR, like, truth, it's communication, people management, for sure. It's contacts, communication, and people management, for sure. But I don't look at it as a fairies. We have not tried to find ways to convince people of things that are true. I do try to find ways to convince to use my words that people can hear what I'm saying. different audiences can understand what I'm saying and hear me without their own barriers going up before they can even hear me,

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Ari Gronich

34:46

Right? No, I guess what I was what I was getting at was not selling you or your profession. What I was saying is totally what I was saying is, is how do we get the profession in general, because a lot of people, obviously they don't trust the media these days. And so how do we get the profession in general? To understand that truth messaging is as powerful if not more powerful than fake media and false messaging? And how do we get the people to understand what the differences are, when we clearly have a complete lack of cognitive dissonance right now, or critical thinking and be able to understand that nation? So, you know, how do we bring people back to a place where they can really, truly know what's real, so that they can act on it so that they can feel like they can do something so that they have the faith and the confidence and all those things that we've been talking about beforehand? Right. Yeah, I'm leaving it all together. How do we bridge those gaps? These are the conversations I at least want to have in general, and have you have with all of your media people, right? How do we do that as a community of media people so that we can really change the industry together.

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Tracy Lamourie

36:19

Out of people think I mean, number one, I mean, you know, honestly, it's you that cognitive dissonance is so true. It's hard, maybe hard for people to do, but you have to really understand like, well, no matter when you hear information, who is giving me this, like, where is this information coming from? Who is giving me this information? And why do they want me to believe it must be someone who benefits from me believing this? You know, like, honestly, I asked him stuff, like when I watch everything, like even if, because something might sound good. If it fits your mindset, if it fits your belief system and fits your whatever, then you're going to want to believe it. Whatever you hear whatever information like that's nasty, but that guy's gonna always question question everything I swear button as, as a little punk rocker. That's a question authority. And I still, you know, say that question everything, question all the information, question the information I give you do it because you should be questioning all information. You know, who benefits from this? Well, you know, Tracy's quiet better than me hearing but then that's not nefarious, or whatever, you know, but ask yourself, Is there you know, who benefits from this? And is there another side to it? Always question your own thinking. Edit your own thinking, make sure to read other stuff. That's the number one way I read everything. I read the right way. I wait. I mean, I'm a lefty, obviously, even though I always say a bird Can't I mean, in terms of I, you know, most of the things that you would line them up with agreement, but not always. I mean, like, I'm not a radical on anything. A bird can't fly with only one wing. You ever noticed there was huge bird tried to fly? So like, really? I'm not a lefty or righty. I like I'm an ideas, girl. I'm tired of all this. Like, what side of you? And I've got ideas? I don't know, let's talk about the specific thing we're talking about. It's all here. Both ideas that maybe well..

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Ari Gronich

38:09

This is part of why I like having you on because I so agree. This is what I talk about so often is critically think each individual issue each individual thing in your life, in your business, in your politics in your community. It's like ask good questions

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Tracy Lamourie

38:30

Of yourself. Hey, why am I Why do I believe that? Why is it because all my friends say that? Oh, well, you know what? Look, honestly, like I literally read every everything that Sports Illustrated, I read them. Like, there was all the mainstream stuff, right? And I watched whatever. And then I read if I can get my hands on some crazy left-wing stuff on Wait, like, I mean, radical, crazy, right wing stuff. I'll read it. And I'm shaking my head at both. You know, and I you know what I'm saying? So like, I understand that I'm reading what people are saying, I'm hearing, not just the argument of people that think my way. But all that I'm like, Yeah, yeah, like, you know, you don't I'm saying so that way. I'm not not because I think I'm gonna even be convinced. But just if you don't understand the way people are thinking, and this isn't just so that I can do the messaging. This is so that I can be discipline activist me, because he are me developed out of activists, me and we would shouting me and my husband, Dave, which I like men, we were in fact, we've begun back in our 20s. You know, we started a campaign because we were basically worked out we wanted to bring in a union. We didn't know any unions. We weren't radicalism that we just didn't meet them. We were being treated at work. One girl said, Hey, I think you can go to any union. We were like, really? Let's look. Let's look that up. And we looked it up. We made a couple of calls. And then all of a sudden, we were in the Globe and Mail Canada's biggest, you know, financial paper at once. Before this, he said to me before, it's definitely I forget this stuff. At 25, 26 years old, me and my husband and one girl. We unionize the first call center in Canada and that what again We were not like big union activists. We were just doing whatever, you know. So with of always a matter of like, you know, oh yeah, why start bringing that up, we were always really good to be we're not mess, you know, like we were publicists, but uh, 25 years old, we, you know, the company was trying to silence and talk about new needs. So they came in bought everybody pizza one day. So we wrote it literally, we weren't a marketing, but I look back on our really good PR piece. It's what the union will give you more than just pizza. And then it had a whole big thing breakdown. We went with a 99%, both the union, which I wasn't even a part of right. Never seen a vote like that week, because we again, we did the work. We called all of our fellow workers, if you have any questions, call us. We put the time in, we care, you know what I mean? But it was really good. When I look back on it. After 20 years of doing this, I couldn't have done a better campaign now than I did as a dumb as 24 year old activist, because we were just, it was the same thing. It was just messaging to see what the situation was really believing in it right? And say, we're going to tell people and we're going to tell people in a way they can hear it within, you know, and that's what it all is. So, buddy with his 90 the only thing I think the guy that you're talking about, the only thing I admire about him is funny. I read about it in the New Yorker, it was hilarious. They said he was in his 90s I believe it's the same guy because they said he was the father of PR. And they mentioned that he worked for like, Come, you know, countries, right? And they said he was in his 90s he still went to work in his office in New York City, like literally every day, you know, and they would tell him, it's like, it was some crazy thing. Right? And I was reading it going. Yeah. He’s a publicist. So that was the only thing. I felt like at a residence there. I was like, yeah, I'll be juniors at 108. But we do. But other than that, yeah. So I don't agree. You know, I, I don't think that's like, I don't believe in STEM. I certainly don't, I did not know that things are mine clump. That's really informative and interesting. Because Yeah, there is definitely a dark side, which is called, you know, that was used to be called dark PR. And I'm sure a lot of you actively do that. And that's what they do with politics and everything where all they're trying to do is dig, you know, that hole, dig up the right key and digging all that stuff up. And I don't want to be part of that.

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Ari Gronich

0:26

Right. And that's literally I guess, what is going on right now, at least in the US. I don't know about how the news looks in other countries at this moment. I know how it looked like in 2004. During the elections, when I was in Greece, I could see the news and the differences between what's being aired on us TV versus Greek TV at the time. But I know in the US this massive thing about fake news, and we just don't really know what is true and what's not true anymore. And all the resources to you know, you Google something, and you get a completely different set of answers. And you do if you Yahoo something? Or if you do something, and it's like, okay, who's pushing which agenda? And is there? Is there any kind of, you know, independent search that doesn't the preconceived algorithm to send you to where they want to send you.

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Tracy Lamourie

1:28

That's interesting, too, because even the more when you search, you know, Google knows your search history too, right? like Facebook, they give you which is so we're getting in this weirder weirder, like the circle for who knows? How can you find like it's getting worse and worse. And in five years public is even worse. Because Where are we hearing only are like those echo chambers, echo chambers, right. And then there's those new social media platforms, people who've been kicked it off the Twitter and Facebook and whatever. And they're super echo chambers, where like, it's only so odd. It's like, it's all it's, all of a sudden, everyone around you is talking about whatever, you know, in a certain way, that starts to seem like your reality. It's a cults work. That's how governments work when you're in a government not even meaning do, but you're in a government. And that's what I call everything in cult, because I understand the way your mind works, I call the political parties that I used to be in a cult, you know, the NDP, which is the lefty lefty party, and I left them because I was like, you know, what, even introduce both of you to one of social and I'm not listening to the roll like this, you know, there's supposed to be the one of social justice bla bla bla, in line with all the people that are like me, you care about this, that the other, when it comes down to it, it is an entity in a party, and it's working inside and out. Part of what it does is Jake just itself, we're activists, we're always on those issues, looking for a partner that's going to help locals political parties aren't ever because they can't be there. Once you get in there. There's all these different other things going on. As people whenever around us sounds good. You know, like, you know, you relate to the people around you, you start to like, so then those other people, they go, Oh, those people are crazy. They don't mean Well, you're not realizing you just see in your little part of the elephant, like those activities seem they're part of the elephant, or the finance people sitting there part, thinking everyone else is crazy. But this within all of it, maybe. But in terms of the media, oh god, I don't even know just so much. The fake news thing is, like this expression, fake news is just so annoying, because I mean, like everything, anybody can call anything that now, no, but at the same time, it's true. Like they're there that that did address originally the you know, propaganda side of news. So yeah, you know, it's a shit show now.

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Ari Gronich

3:34

It's really fun, it's really entertaining, but not if you actually want to know something about what's happening in the world. And I think that was the point is when the deregulation happened, and they started making news for profit. It used to have to be the only it was that had to be not for profit division of a corporation to deliver the news, and then they deregulated it. And they allowed for a 24-hour news cycle that had advertising and all of a sudden, and that's the news. At least as far as Walter Cronkite. I think.

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Tracy Lamourie

4:15

That trusted that's true, and there used to be a clear, like a deli-a-nation like 100% between the editorial and advertorial where like an editor would shoot themselves in the head before they let any advertorial content come like 100% but now that's actually changed even like I'm still shocking even in new in newspapers even were like, and to their great regret. Like I've talked to business press, for example, where they're like, Oh, my God traced, but the editors and financial posters that were there like, that's a great story. I myself have 18 spoolie 18 stories. I'm editor to financial 18 business stories, I want to quit. My business press has been you know, cut from like, six pages 10 pages two to three to two and Half ages One, two, only with one and a half of the editorial content going to people who placed ads, and I was like, Oh my god, and that's in a newspaper, oh my God. And he was like, just telling me this truth. Right? And I was like, because you see some of that, like, I guess the reality of the newsroom now, like economic, you know, crazy. But that's the kind of thing that ruins like that, you know, you used to be like, you come to me for like earned media, there is no like, I don't you pay to play. I don't put quite when you pay me, you don't pay it, I don't come to you later and say, pay to get into this, that's advertised. Right? I find opportunities where you are respected source, and you're quoted as an expert source. And that's why it's valuable. Because it's not advertising because you can't buy your way into that it's me presenting, you know, that's why it's valuable. If they keep doing this is gonna be like, as seen on TV is to have cachet to people, you know, when it was like, bought purchased ad until people figured out Oh, wait, that's just an ad, you know. And now we it still has the cache, like, if you're on the news to TV or whatever, because you're not supposed to be able to buy it. But now they're starting to be that like, that style thing at all.

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Ari Gronich

6:11

Yeah, absolutely. So here's, you know, I like to play with you. In some of those mind things. You said, I know the mind. I know the consciousness. So here, where I like to go. Right? I want to create a new tomorrow, I want to activate people's visions for a better world activate is an active thing that you have to actually actively do. And in my opinion, that is activism. Because you're doing the thing that you're passionate about that is going to move people forward. So that's an activism thing. So creating an active movement, creating people who are actively doing and collaborating with others who are like minded. How do you move the mountain? How do you get people to come along with you? How do you get people who want to be the leader, to step up to be that leader so that they can then bring the people in?

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Tracy Lamourie

7:13

I think is really showing people that you can do it. Like, that's what I think people always tell me that I've inspired them and all that. And I think it just they're looking at that like oh, well, even my daughter when we you know, we met her at 15 sweet adopted, and she was already awesome activist minded, all kinds of you know, but like when she came into our family and saw the newspaper articles on the thing, about, you know, us with the death penalty, and you know, you know, all these, it newspapers all over America, from the bottom of cat, you know, from Canada and our basement, you know, there we have a cover of the Houston Chronicle that like, and she said to me years later, not then because she started doing her own activist if not around the duck, obviously, or other stuff, you know, a lot of Aboriginal rights stuff early on, it was animals now it's, you know, First Nations and stuff. And so she, I remember, she literally said, like, you know, I thought I was always coming back to this mind, but I looked at all this literally, I thought, well, you guys can do that. It just made it really well. Well, cuz it's, true, like, you know, like, seriously, we elevator stuff so much, you know, without it wasn't about us whenever it was about getting the message out that somebody had to be speaking the message, and all of a sudden, were there people look, you know, so like, we never should have been able to do that stuff. But we just didn't think we thought we should be able to. So we did, you know. And so she was inspired by that. So I think people see that it's not that hard. It's hard. But it's not. But anything. It's not nothing is hard. Nothing, maybe brain surgery. I've never done that. That's probably hard. But I mean, other than that, like, most things in life are not hard. If a human can do it, you can do it. If a person can do it, if you can conceive of it, if you can, you know. And if you take that first step, again, you're a lot closer, like a lot of these things. When you know when we say that people think oh, yeah, yeah, but then a million times before, but it's so it's true. Just do it. If you take a step. Now, you're not where you were before, you're one step closer. And then you realized you did that. And then maybe you take one more step, you're gonna get an serotonin boost a little bit of goal, you know, whenever, and you're like, Whoa, yeah, Matt, you know, like, so I'm lucky and like, I don't know what it was a push me on path. And like, I just didn't have fear. And so like you said, the fear, and I did stuff. And every time I did stuff, you know, again, back in those days, it wasn't a money reward at all. Like now it's, you know, money back that we weren't thinking about that way. But I mean, the reward and it wasn't even about ego wasn't about getting the article. It was about a client we were like literally in it to accomplish that thing. Oh, my God, we're in that article, not like a great trick is not an article. How many people read that how people can hear that. I'm gonna give a Jimmy Jimmy like, it was really about that. And when you're actually doing that, that's when you get hurt when you're doing something.

AG

Ari Gronich

10:00

Right, you know, awesome. Thank you so much for all of that. Is there anything else that you feel like you just need to give to the audience that you you're like aching to share with them?

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TL

Tracy Lamourie

10:15

Well, I usually end on this on a positive note for people who aren't feeling so positive. Because I think we always talk about all these accomplishments and blah, blah, blah, you know, like, looking at people on vacations on the internet. And clicking will feel pretty bad about themselves. But I again, want you to real I want to realize, so there's Jimmy who spent 25 years on death row, he's always saying Never Never give up. Which, you know, for real, but how he got through it. And then even now, when he's out, and we you know, when everyone has trauma, whenever he's talking about stuff, and he's having a bad day, I'll be like, yeah, you know, what, we didn't get this far to only get this far. We just found on Facebook. I saw that on Facebook once. And for him, I'm like, you know, Grammys on the way you already did the hard stuff, you've got those doors open, and no one would have thought do we didn't get that far, it's not, you know, get rest of your dream, this is the easy part for you like to get the Grammy compared to what we've done already, is easy. That's possible. That wasn't, we did that, you know, so that. But, but more even more importantly, for people who like maybe don't,for people who are feeling good about themselves, you can get inspired only get inspired, there's more to go. But really, more importantly, the people who don't feel good about themselves, who are like who feel like they're a loser who feel like they're not winning, who feel like, you know, they just don't feel that they want to jump off a bridge, they feel like everybody's doing that to sell this No, Oh, you didn't get this far to only get this far, you're absolutely a winner if you're listening to this, because this is a hard, shitty, we're hope sometimes great world, I love that. It can be shitty, it can be hard for people, especially if you don't know how to get out of that negative feeling. And everybody has people that are treating them badly. you've all had struggles. But literally, if you got here, you got through all those struggles, you beat all those people who wanted to bring you down and you won. So you're still here. And there's only tomorrow, you know, to do more. So you have to literally realize he didn't get through all that he didn't deal with all those idiots he didn't deal with all that should be feeling this way today, you gotta like, applaud yourself for where you got and keep on going. So that's, I think, super important.

AG

Ari Gronich

12:18

Yeah, that was one of the things that I thought of earlier in the conversation when you're talking about celebration. And I think that people forget to celebrate their wins, they're definitely ready to experience their failures, you know, emotionally, but celebrating their wins is, and being grateful for that win each time it comes even if it's tiny, tiny, tiny steps, is an amazing thing for people to do to keep moving them forward and feeling good about it. Even in those moments of hardship, right and struggle. I mean, you went through a lot of years of hardship and a struggle on that path to get that person. And I'm sure that part of what you were thinking is nothing that I'm experiencing as much as what he's experiencing, being in that space. And so using that as part of like cross motivation. And I tell people, you're not done until you're dead. You know, you can't fall off the wagon, there is no wagon. If you're not dead, you're not done. Like, literally at any moment in time, choose to do something different. So move, to fly away, to go on a vacation to rest and breathe and not pick up your phone to do any of these things you are more than capable of because you're a human being. And so I really appreciate you being on and sharing your story, your wisdom, all of the things that got you to a place. And I hope that this that the audience listening really gets that they can do something to activate their vision for a better world and create a new tomorrow today. And it doesn't take a whole lot. It's just one step at a time. So thank you so much for being here. And this has been another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host Ari Gronich. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Adam Strong is an Ultra-High Personal Productivity Authority, Business Strategist, Author, Public Speaker and the Founder of the Game Changers Experience.

Adam was a former elite athlete in distance running (current world and Olympic champion Sir Mo Farah was his former training partner) and teaches the same success principals creating high energy and fast growing companies.

A

Ari Gronich

0:03

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host, Ari Gonich. And today I have with me Adam strong. Met with him a little bit ago while he was in Cyprus, now he's in Scandinavia, he's been doing amazing things to solve the world's plastic pollution problem, as well as having been a ultra-marathoner, I believe, or an extreme athlete, he's worked with Olympics, and so on. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what makes you tick, but also, why plastic?

AS

Adam Strong

0:39

That's why there's about two or three questions there. So what I'll do is I'll try to break them down into many segments, if that's okay Ari. So first of all, thanks very much for letting me on the show. You know, I'm a big fan of the show. It's a great show. And, and I love it that the fact that you've got, you know, some great guests as well. So thanks very much, really appreciate that. So, my background, as you know, I'm just for the listeners, for the point of the listeners is my background is I actually got into elite athletics at the age of 11. So when I grew up, things were quite tough, right? So I suffered from a condition called alopecia. As you can see, I have no hair and haven't had hair since the age of 10. And so did it bother me back? When it when I was younger, I was I went through a transitional period. Like when I first lost my hair, it really did affect my self-esteem and self-confidence, right as it would do with any kind of young child and whatever it might be. But it really affected me. And so I was so ashamed about the way that I looked. And I was so conscious about what people were thinking about me, obviously, you know, judgments and stuff like that, and so forth. And so I was I when I, when I went through school, like through high school and stuff, I wore a sports cap, because I just felt so kind of ashamed about the way I looked out. Even if you look through my school photos, Ari right. I was the only kid that was allowed to wear a skullcap with my like blazer and stuff like that. Right? It was crazy. So anyway, cut long story short, at the age of 11. I, my father at the time, he said to me, because he knew I was going through some tough times. And he took up some long, long distance running at the time, he was like, hey, Son, why don't you get into long distance running? I'm like, Well, you know, I, it's a bit difficult that because I'm an asthma sufferer, you know? And, you know, and, and he was like, Well, why don't you just try it? And I'm like, Okay, well, I'll go try it. Well, what have I got ahead? What have I got to lose? Right? So I remember going down to the athletics track, I went down there on my own, because my mother and father was separated the time. So I was living with my mother. So I walked out, I goes down to the athletics track, which is at least 30 minutes from my house, and I go there on my own. And the reason I was there on my own is pure, because I didn't have the mentors and sort of the coaches and the support that I had when I was a kid. You know, everything that I did was literally off my own back. So when down to down to the athletics track, and I remember Ari turning off the app on the athletics track, and where the counter was, the counter would just appear to be about 10 foot high. And so I was this kid trying to look up and I was like, hey, Is anybody there? Hello. And so there was this lady that kind of looked over and she's like, Hey, I didn't see you there. And so I'm just like, Hey, can I How can I help? And I'm like, What? I'm interested in joining your running club. And I was like, Okay, cool. So, so what's your experience was like, I don't really have an experience. And she's like, no worries, well, what are you interested in? I was like, I'm interested in distance running. My dad's been doing it for a little while. And he's seems to think that might help with my self-esteem and self-confidence. He says, Okay, cool. So she walks me down to the athletics track. And all I see Ari are all these athletes, right. field athletes, track athletes. And I'm like, Whoa, this is way out of my league. Like, seriously, this is way out of my league, and I'm getting uncomfortable. I'm already thinking, I'm already thinking I'm no good for this, right. I'm not, I'm never gonna be any better than these guys on so I'm already comparing myself to these strangers, right. And I'm on and you know, it's not my fault. And so I'm already thinking I'm going to give up before I've even started anyway, cut a long story short. She says, I'm going to introduce you to one of my coaches. I was like, great, fantastic. And he takes like the long distance to middle distance group. And so and then obviously, I told her about my asthma and she went, Oh, okay, no worries. And so I kind of it really was really tough for me Ari when I first started getting started because as being an asthma sufferer, and I don't know if you're an asthma sufferer yourself, but when you're an asthma sufferer. You know doing long distance running is it. It's a bit different, right. So I first started off, I couldn't even run 100 meters. That's how difficult it was for me. 100 meters was real tough for me. And so over a period of time, I just thought to myself after my first session, right, I was like, Okay, I'm going to go back and see if I can try to improve myself, right. I'm going to see if I can improve myself. And just through persistence, and developing tenacity, I started to get better and better, better. Within six months, my asthma had completely disappeared. You know, six months Ari, that's crazy. And you're probably thinking, Wow, that's amazing.

AG

Ari Gronich

5:40

It's amazing. You know, because I had what they called exercise induced or allergy induced asthma, either one, so and I was a long distance cycler growing up, so I would do your 250 mile rides, from my town in Santa Clarita Valley, all the way over the mountain to Malibu, or Santa Monica, so we'd go and we'd swim around, and we'd hang out and then we'd come back, but I was always the last guy, I would do it, I would do it. But I was always the last guy, because I couldn't really get the breath to flow within, you know, a good athletes cadence. Right? So..

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Adam Strong

6:27

100% Yeah, it's tough. I mean, literally, I completely 100% know where you're coming from on that one. And it's interesting. So I got introduced my coach, and when he got to the so you have the winter season in the summer season. So when the winter season kicks in, things get really tough because, you know, you go down to minus temperatures. And this is where I started. This is where I actually met my training partner, who was the current world and Olympic world champion in five and 10,000 meters, we, and we really didn't have That's it, we were quite similar in our own ways. He came from Somalia, originally say was an immigrant originally came to the UK and live with his with his own to get away from the war and famine in Somalia. And so he also was similar to myself, he was bullied, you know, didn't particularly have a lot of friends kind of introverted, very similar. And so what we did is we actually used our, I suppose, not really weaknesses, but I suppose, are our state of mind to really kind of bounce off each other. So as we start a training round the dark field at the back of the running track, because no one else would ever go there without any floodlights. We would kind of like, encourage each other to push harder and go harder and, and try to beat our times. And so we would use that. It's a bit like going to the gym every right. If you go to the gym, you're gonna work harder with a training buddy. Right? It's exactly the same thing. And so we did it. And we made it fun for ourselves. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why I just consistently just kept on going back because I just, I just love that age, I just developed this appetite of competition. And I love that I've, you know, I'd never had that before. But that's how I developed it. I just wanted to, I wanted to win, you know.

AG

Ari Gronich

8:19

So, here's the thing that you and I talked about, I think a little bit, but you wanted to win. But you weren't really racing against the other people. We talked about this a little bit you were wanting to win against the previous version of yourself. That's something that I always would teach to the athletes that I was training, is you're not in competition with the guy next to you. If you get into competition with the guy next to you, that's when you miss the gun, so to speak, when you know, your false starts and you get nervous and you don't have everything else in alignment when you work on yourself is when you're in competition with yourself is when you're like you're in that ultra-focused state of flow

AS

Adam Strong

9:03

100% I literally, within sort of a year or so I learned a lot of the skills that are a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners really seek but it takes habit. It takes years of practice and tenacity to really master those skills, you know, that you mentioned focus. So for me, my Yes, I was competing against myself. But my real big thing that I really wanted to do was always try to beat my time. That was my competitor that was my competition to try to beat my previous time all the time. And that motivated me so much that I just wanted to keep going back to try to beat it beat it over and over and over and again, and within a short period of time, literally I was absolutely crushing it. So you know, and I think it was just kind of that development really over a set period of time. 

AG

Ari Gronich

9:55

Awesome. Now back to the plastics because completely separate topics, right? Completely or so you'd think. 

AS

Adam Strong

10:06

Absolutely. Yes or no? So being in, sort of in the Western world, you know, I mean, you're in the United States, I'm in kind of Europe. So I always grew up, you know, in an environment where, you know, recycling was important, save the planet sustainability, things like that. Right. And so, you know, it was ingrained into our culture to look after the planet, because, hey, you only get one planet, right, you know? Right. So I, as you know, Ari I was living in, I just came back from Cyprus, and I was living there for about seven months. The reason I was there is purely because they wanted to get away from the darkness. And somewhere, go somewhere, which is a little bit more paradise, and warmer. But anyway, cut long story short, as I went, I was as I was there. I don't know if any of you listeners have been to Cyprus, but it's bit like going back in a time warp by about 25 years, I kid you not. And so one of the things which, which I, which was shocking. So one of my regular routines was in the morning was to walk down to the beach. And it's kind of my form of meditation, Ari, right, you know, like the fresh air blue skies, you know, you go for a walk along the beach, and that kind of stuff. And so every time I took a walk, I wouldn't see all this plastic being washed up from the sea. And it wasn't just necessarily washed up by the sea, but it was just like dumped, or there was just this sheer lack of love and appreciation. And so I would take my trash bags down there, and I would bring up back at least two bags of plastic trash, you know, every time I'd walk down there, and I just thought to myself, hey, this is really annoying. Like this is really to the point where it's pissing me off, excuse my French, but it really is annoying me. And, and the thing is, it really developed into this kind of anger, and a sense that I was doing something for the planet, but no one really cared. And to me it really. And so, as I develop this anger, I started to create this visionary. And this vision was is that hang on a second, you know, I'm pretty successful in what I do in what I do as an entrepreneur. But that's what entrepreneurs do is they come up with these new visions. And so I create this new, this new vision just came into my head. And now we're in the process of, you know, creating, we're going to be raising investment soon, we're going to be building up massive brand awareness. And we're going to be fixing some of those challenges, especially. And I mean, that the world is, shall I say, it's 70% ocean anyway. So I've managed to create a piece of technology, what it's not just a piece of technology, it's, gonna be an app, it's gonna be a movement more than anything else. So I'm excited about that more than anything else. Because it's, for me, it's not about this isn't about me, like business is never about me. It's always about what can I do for others? or How can I serve others? Do you not? I mean,

AG

Ari Gronich

13:08

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because when you spend time in nature, you end up taking a look at it and becoming aware. And it's really hard to not see the things that you see when you're aware of them. So here's one of my questions to you is you've developed, you are out there on a regular basis and develop that awareness. Others have an awareness that something's going on. Let's just say, we'll put their recycle in the recycle bin, and think that it's being recycled, but they'll never know that 99% of what you put in the recycle bin is not going to be recycled. Right? There's, there's so much that we are told, do this, but it's not being effective. So how do people understand that they've been told for 25, 30, 40 years now, reuse, recycle, right. But the things that they're doing aren't being effective. So how do we get to a place where the people are doing the things that they're told, and it's being effective? Because those systems are in place to make it effective?

AS

Adam Strong

14:28

Yeah, it's an interesting question. But I think it's, I think the word that comes to my mind is all about education. You know, it's about education, not just like, and I said to you, I, you know, I came back from Cyprus is like, you know, living in back in sort of the 1990s. And so we live in the 21st century now, right? And so, it's about the challenges is that you've got different cultures. So Western world culture is very different from say Africa. It's very different from Mediterranean life. And, and so it's about educating and going into schools and educating the children. And that's where it's really good to start. From my perspective..

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Ari Gronich

15:12

Okay. So that it to me that feels like that's what's been done. So like, I was in elementary school, and I'm old now. And I was an elementary schooler listening about recycling. And so I guess my point is, I no longer feel like, it is the people like it's like, same thing with food and obesity, right. People are eating nonfat; they're eating sugar free. They're eating. Oh, wait, now I'm now the fat, you know, the results are completely the opposite of what they say we're doing. So the education, yes, is important. But it has to be correct information. Number one, are education. But number two, it's like you're creating a technology, right? There's so many technologies out there to help clean things that are not being used. So I guess the question is, how do we get the public educated enough to where they become activated. To force change to happen? versus just going, Oh, well, you know, I see plastic everywhere, and I'm completely unable to change it.

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Adam Strong

16:26

You know, that's a million-dollar question. And, and, and that's a very good point. I think, from my perspective, that leadership starts from the top. And so really, what has to happen really, is that you have to start getting in front of governments, world leaders, disruptors, influences, you know, and create documentaries. I mean, one of my role models, Ari, one of my role models is Sir David Attenborough. I don't know if you have known as David Attenborough, but he is, is a British chap, he's in his 90s. And literally, he does documentaries for the BBC, mainly. And so all of these things is all around educating, going to the UN and, and talking to world leaders about the fact that, you know, if you continue to abuse the planet, the way it is, then it's gonna, there’s be repercussions off the back of that, right? You know, your children and your children's children, they're not going to enjoy the way that we enjoy his life. So, you know, and then things get extinct and so forth. So, if we're wrong with answers to your question, it really has to start with the top. And, you know, and sure, there's, only the little man, which is kind of me as such, right? But effectively, if you're gonna become, if you really gonna want to create a ripple, if you like, and become like kind of the face of, then the face of a particular movement, or whatever it is, then you've really got to start by getting some big support from some of the influences and thought leaders that are out there.

AG

Ari Gronich

18:00

Gotcha. So I guess I go back, you know, I asked tougher questions than most, I guess, on this show. And, and I guess what I'm what I'm looking at is see you're doing something actively to solve a problem, to create a different result. And my question, I guess, goes back to what do we need to do not to educate the government, because they're educated, they already have all the scientists telling them all the facts, they haven't done anything about it, right. So if I'm like, I'm a performance therapist, I'm all about results, getting results, if I have an athlete who's injured, and they need to go get a gold medal, and we don't get them the results, then they lose millions of dollars. And, you know, there's all kinds of things that stay with not getting your balls, you had 50 years of not getting results. So my questions become like, activate you're going to be a leader, you're going to be moving, create, you know, creating a movement for plastic, right? How many of the people who are creating the movement for plastic Have you already connected with right and, and said, Okay, I see what you're doing, here's what I'm doing. Can we make this more effective? And then do that with the government as well? I mean, that's just my, my 10 cents on it. But I if I'm looking at, I want results, and I know you're going to be somebody who's going to be producing results, then I want to know, as an audience has as a person, like, how do I connect with you? How do I get results to so that I don't have to live with plastic on my beaches?

AS

Adam Strong

19:43

Sure. Well, I think everyone plays it plays an important role in in everything right? But I think what's what the key word that comes to my mind is collaboration. No one man no one woman, no one piece of technology software, whatever it might be. No creative invention is going to fix one huge, massive thing. The end of the day, it starts through collaboration, it starts by working together. That's the big thing. It can't be done otherwise, because there's only so much I can do with the world. And there's only so much you can do in the world. But ultimately, we all have to collaborate, and synergize. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, we've seen, especially over the last 18 months, where there's a big reset of the world. And you're seeing like habitats flourish, evolution new species coming in, because there's no humans about you know what I mean. And so it's kind of interesting, there was this great documentary, again by Sir David Attenborough. And he was just talking about the fact that cities were deserted. And, and now we've got all these new ecosystems and habitats that are being created. But ultimately, it is all around, building working together in unity and synergy. and collaborating working towards one movement. So I have a particular vision. But in order to have that vision, really kind of, I suppose, really take its toll and really kind of get the desired results is for everyone to really jump on board, if you like, and really kind of understand the real purpose and the real, why as to why we're doing it.

AG

Ari Gronich

21:26

So, what is what is like, the thing that you say to somebody who I don't believe in climate change, or, you know, what I'm doing as part on the planet is not going to affect the planet, it's stronger than I am, you know, like, there's so many arguments that people are making conspiracy theories that people are making. And so I like to, like cut all of that shit out. As if, if there is no conspiracy theory, if, if there is no climate change, the only thing we're doing is looking down the road and seeing a whole bunch of crap on the road that, you know, looks like it should be clean. Isn't that enough? To get somebody to clean up? Well, obviously not. But you know, this is where I where I like to take, take it is What's so difficult about the concept get rid of all the morality theory, you know. 

AS

Adam Strong

22:26

Because not everyone believes what you believe. And it's all about belief systems, right? So what my opinion and my belief systems about how I see the world and how I see perspective of the environment, and the plastic is very different from the way you see it the way the guy in Manhattan sees it. At the end of the day, it's all very subjective. So the idea really is like for my, and I hope that I'm kind of singing off the same hymn note here is that there's no point in forcing someone to really understand, you know, like, if I if someone kind of questioned me and said, Well, why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? Well, what are you doing type of thing, right? There's no right or wrong. It's very opinionated, and very subjective. At the end of the day, it's about, like, for me, the environment is like the environment and the ocean. The reason why it's so important to me is because number one, I enjoy watersports, scuba diving, snorkeling, all of those things I enjoy doing. So why would I want to, you know, swim with all that plastic rather than swim with the fish? Right? That just, that's just stupid, right? But listen, know what. We're all different. We all have our different opinions, different value, core values, but at the end of the day, you've got to do what you feel was right. You know, that's kind of from my perspective, it answers the question

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Ari Gronich

23:55

That would be that would be good on a micro level of individual. Right. So then I go to the next level, which is technology. So there are companies that have the technology to clean up stuff that aren't there's systems in place and government in place incentives in place to pollute rather than to not pollute. And so that next question becomes, how do we regulate again, or systemize in the government, good behavior of the corporations and the people who are actually affecting massive audience or macro, you know, environment versus just those micro?

AS

Adam Strong

24:36

Yeah, it's, it's a it's another good question. And what I would say is, from my perspective, plastic pollution is it's vast, like, people really don't understand how such big a problem it is. But it is so enormous it's unreal, it's probably unthinkable. Why would I go and tackle something as huge as that right. That's probably what some of your listeners are probably thinking. But the question is, is, why not? And why? Why not me? You know that. And so why should I? At the end of the day? Yes, you're right there is technology out there. But I think if you provide, if you provide the decision makers with the right data, and what I mean by the right data, let me let me give an example. Right. So if I was to collect data using AI, between, say, I was surveying, say, the Mediterranean Sea, right. And I was also surveying, say, I don't know the English Channel, I just use that as an example, right? Through AI, I can then pick up, you know, and monitor to see if there's, you know, a lot of plastic in that particular area, that's then going to be able to help us focus on specific areas of the world where we can say, Okay, well, there are shipping lanes, which go across it. And all of the cargo ships are dumping that shit into the sea. And so what are we going to do about that, right? That means that we're going to then send out our drones, we're going to then provide proof, we can then prosecute, we can do whatever it is, and therefore, we can then do something about it. Because at the end of the day, because plastic pollution is such a big problem. And yes, we all know about, you know, the need to clean up and the benefits and the reasons why. But if you've got hard core facts about where to focus, what to do, and who to go after, then it becomes a different ballgame.

AG

Ari Gronich

26:34

Gotcha. I like that measure first in functional medicine with no clinical diagnosis. It's always test, test, test, test, measure, get the numbers, right, if you get the numbers, right, you're golden. Here's the crux of it, though, some of those numbers aren't going to matter to people. So when I'm looking at something like this, right, the plastic not, it's not just plastic pollution, harming environment, it's the plastic estrogen as harming our own bodies, that's causing kids to go through puberty at five and six years old, and that of at, you know, normal age, it's all of the illnesses and the diseases, it's all those other things, right. And so I guess, where I want so much, you know, I want so much, I should on people a lot, right? I should on people a lot. And here's my thing about incentives about the world in an environment, there's so many reasons that we haven't even thought of that would be a good idea to take care of certain problems like plastic, like any of the pollution. But I then go back to I remember growing up in my hometown, and you couldn't see the mountain in front of you. It was smoggy there. And when California said, No companies, you have to have regulation that's going to control this smog. All of a sudden, that smog lifted, and you could see blue again. And it was like years since I had seen blue. So, you know, I go Okay, well, even if I have conspiracy theories, even if I think capitalism is awesome, and we should be able to do anything we want. As a human being I sit in the world going, this, I don't like how I feel I don't like what I see. And so I want to make a change. And I know that not everybody does that. But there are ways I think that can make it easier for them. If the systems are designed, like when they go take their there's recycling their cans and bottles out to recycle. And making sure that the companies are recycling that stuff. We have the technology, it's kind of funny, I watched a documentary on this recently, we have the technology to do it. But they haven't implemented or set up the technology at most of the communities, cities states, because of money. And yet, so you're so as the audience member here, you're putting your stuff in the plastic bin. And it's going with everything else. Yep. And that to me is like how do we get that? To shift? How do we get these companies to be good actors instead of bad actors? How do we and then make awareness so that people will hold them accountable since the government's obviously not doing it?

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Adam Strong

29:40

Absolutely. 100%. And a good example of this is, I remember actually, so here's a really good example of for me, when I was over in Cyprus, and he used to do these, you know, I used to, as I said, as I described to you, I used to do, we me and my family used to do these plastic pickups on a daily basis, right? And so you'd get like these shipping bags. And on the shipping bags, it would even have the address of the person that actually decided to dump their shit in the sea. Right? How stupid is that? Right? It had China shipping and even had the address. And I'm like, Am I missing a trick here or something? So you know what I mean. Anyway, I just wanted to kind of say that, but that, you know, I just found that kind of, in a way. It's hilarious. But in another way, it's sad. You know, how, you know, people treat the world but you know, you're absolutely right. Companies need to be accounted for. And the only way that can be done is by saying, hey, Sonny, Jim, this is what you've done. Here's the proof. Now, you need to cough up.

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Ari Gronich

30:45

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, that's one of the places that I want people as they're listening to this kind of, you know, these shows, I want them to go, that's me. I'm a lawyer, I can do that. You know, that's me. I'm, I'm an environmentalist, I could do that part. This is me, I'm a, I can do this. That's what I want people to get when they listen to the shows. So what are some things that that you would think of are things that the audience members could say, Oh, yeah, I could do that.

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Adam Strong

31:22

Reframe the question for me again, I just have to think about that.

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Ari Gronich

31:25

Okay, So I want people when they're listening to the show, to have things that they can do that they'll say, Oh, yes, I can do that. And I can get started on that. Now, instead of what most people do, which is I like the idea. I don't know how to get started not going to do anything, not really inspired to do it. So, you know, this shows about activating your vision for a better world. It's about how do we actively do the things that we're talking about instead of just talking about them? So how do we, you know, what are some things that people can do? When they're listening to this? And say, I want I could do that I could get involved in this part. I could get involved in that.

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Adam Strong

32:09

Why I think it. So there's a number and I'll just tell you from personal experience, Ari, right, because I think that's probably best. Right? So number one is that you and I go back to core foundations, we all have different core values, go back to your core values. First of all, okay, what's important to you? That and if you know what's important to you, then you can then start to create, as you would say, at the beginning, how to then create a purpose and a vision, right? You've got to get, you've got to then be committed to that, right? What is it that you really want to do in life, right, and, and it doesn't have to be so extreme like I am, which is kind of solving the world's plastic pollution problem, it could be something really, really simple. It could be something like, I don't know, save the milkman in Manhattan, for example, I don't know, whatever, right? But you get my point, right? So that the thing is, number one, be committed to your vision, okay, that's the first thing. Secondly, ideas are shit without execution, right. You've got to act on what you do. If you're going to say you're going to do something, then you've got to be accountable for that at the end of the day. So make sure you've got a good, at least a good coach or a mentor to really kind of push you on, and to make you accountable for that that's extremely important. And also, I was gonna say, just, if you believe you've got to believe in it, whether it be a product or service, a moment, whatever it might be, you have to believe in it more than anybody else. Because if you don't believe in it, if you don't believe in yourself, if you don't believe in what you're doing, then guess what, it's not going to work. Because without belief systems, that's basically the core foundation of everything. And that's a knee, if you don't, you need to have those in place. Once you've got those things in place, then you can execute, then you can start to think about how you can build trust, how you can make collaborations and how you can then turn that into where depend on what is it that you want to do? Can it be monetized? Is it for charity, or whatever it is, but everything should be able to should be able to monetize things and whatever it is. So does that help?

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Ari Gronich

34:25

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and one of the things that I like is that you're, you're like me taking the passion and turning it into a career. Because what are you doing on this planet? If you're not enjoying your life, and if you're not doing the work of something that you enjoy, then you know, we're just living a dead life. It's kind of like the there's an old saying about, you know, people in cars on the freeways in LA, you know, driving around in their metal coffins and That's just the truth. And so I'm always about how do we lift people up out of the circumstances that they find themselves in, and reengage them, reintroduce them to their purpose to what it is that they really truly want. 

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Adam Strong

35:21

Was gonna say to you, actually, have you ever seen that film The Matrix? Oh, yeah. I mean, most people have seen the matrix. And it kind of reminds me like, what you're describing is a bit like people who live in the matrix, right? They just, they're just so blinkered, it's a bit like, Bill Murray's Groundhog Day, I'm sure you've seen that movie, where he just kind of the same thing over and over again, right? What does he do? He sleeps, he eats, and he goes to work. And those are the only three things that he does until he kind of creates this perceptional awareness about how to try to break the cycle do you know what I mean. 

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Ari Gronich

35:55

Yeah. We're doing that. All right. Now, you know. We're definitely on this pendulum of we did this. Now we're gonna go back here. Oh, wait, we did this already. Now we're gonna go back here. Wait, no.

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Ari Gronich

36:16

You know, it's funny to me. I was I was talking to somebody the other day about the Roman Empire. And just, you know, the, the collapse of the Roman Empire and what were the things that caused that lab, and we in the US, in the Western world, in general, have are, you know, have like, planned, so to speak, by not planning to go down by the way of the dodo, just like the Roman Empire. And I find it fascinating how we're not learning from our mistakes, or taking the opportunity to assess and reassess when we're not getting the results that we want. Right. So what are you doing within your initiative and within your technology to kind of address those things? With regards to, you know, check, looking at the impact the results, the you know, the forethought of what it is you're doing, the planning,

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Adam Strong

37:21

What am I doing in the planning stages?

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Ari Gronich

37:23

Yeah, what is the planning stages? And then what is that tech, I don't like to do this as a show that promotes, but I want to know what you're doing. So that if somebody wants to say, Oh, yeah, I like that I can get involved with doing that.

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Adam Strong

37:39

Well, listen, I can, I can describe because for me, I'm, at the end of the day, no one is going to be able to replicate my vision as such, right? We all have our own vision. So for me, I'm, we're actually designing at the moment where our models are, we're designing a unique boats or a new unique ship, which is essentially powered with zero fossil fuels. So it's powered through hydrogen, and solar panels, and also wind energy. So there'll be zero fossil fuels involved as part of that technology as well. So that's one technology as part of that. So energy saving technology. Secondly, what we're going to be doing is we're creating what they call a boom, and a boom will be as the boat is going along the boom will be like a bit like a kind of a half circle. circumference, which is kind of a there's got to be a net. It's kind of a net. And in between that the fish can obviously you know, they don't get trapped within that but it collects all the plastic is it kind of trundles along. On top of that. We also have. It's also powered through AI. AI is really, really up and coming at the moment. But everyone knows about boys, so boys are good for navigation and shipping and stuff like that. So along with that we have boys so if you can imagine, say for example, I'll just use this as an example say I focusing on the Hudson River, right. And so between the Hudson River between New Jersey and New York, right, and the same, just for just for the hell of air between the Hudson and say New York say it was the equivalent of say 12 football fields. Within 12 football fields, we would then mark up at each corner of the football field, we were placed what they call a boy within that boy, we also it will send out signals and pick up AI and by telling the boat to go to certain places so it can pick up the data. It's a bit like an electric lawnmower. Electric lawn mowers, which you know can be quite bulky, they go up to the other than the lawn and then they turn back or they go in a different direction is exactly the same. concept. This is just out in the in the rivers and the seas of the oceans, exactly the same concept. And so what it's doing is it's collecting all the data as it goes along. And it's, and it's trying to figure out what are the most polluted waters in the world? Where is this big focus, and where's the big scope? On top of that, there's also going to be drones. So they're gonna be sending out long distance drones. What are the drones ready to do with drones, what they do is number one, they help monitor the local area. So if there is a, I don't know, say, for example, when a specific area in the Hudson that was heavily polluted, and there was a ship passing by. And if you put two and two together, they found that the ship was dumping shit into the sea or into the Hudson, right, then the drones can then pick up that data. And then they can obviously put two and two together and report it back to the authorities. So you've got aerial views, you've got picking up AI, you've got picking up the plastic itself, but actually on the ship, we're actually going to be recycling the plastic as we go along, turning it into either fuel, or selling it to companies, which can be sold into recyclable products. So there's lots of great things that's going to be part of the part of the project.

AG

Ari Gronich

0:03

That sounds awesome.

How can people get ahold of you? If they're if they're interested in doing some playing with plastics?

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Adam Strong

0:09

Sure. Absolutely. That you're very welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm more active on LinkedIn, of course, Instagram, and you can also connect with me on my podcast, if you want to look at my podcast as well, the game changes experience as well. I'm happy to connect with you guys on there as well.

AG

Ari Gronich

0:28

One last, you know, deep question is about microplastics. Yes. And I just want you to talk a little bit about that. Because big plastic is very different, easier to collect. Micro plastic, obviously, is nanoparticles. And so what should people do about filtering their water at homes? What should people do to avoid the microplastics? And what is microplus? What is that? That as an issue?

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Adam Strong

0:57

Yeah, it's a good question. So So microplastics are generally normally fragmented pieces of plastic that's generally come off of a bigger piece of plastic, that's generally what micro plastics are. And they generally wash up our onto our beaches. So you'll see all those little tiny twigs and little microplastics, or whatever it might be. Yes, it, believe it or not, 70% of plastic is actually what they found through research is that 70% of plastic is actually comes from our rivers. So the rivers, when they wash down to the ocean, it gets them washed out into the ocean, that's how it affects marine life. So what was it gonna, what was gonna say? So the microplastic problem is really, really challenging. What we're doing with our ship is we're actually creating what we call a vacuum cleaner. So it's going to be picking up all this microplastic as we come along, and then it's going to bundle it up like a bit like a wet a dung beetle, collects all of its stuff when you're not I mean, so it will collect like a dombey, all type of thing, and four balls of these microplastics, or whatever it might be, but it's a real challenge, really big challenge. What can consumers do? Yes, of course, you mentioned filter water and things like that. 100%. But I think, you know, just do your bit for the planet. Really? That's kind of what I would say, from my perspective, which is probably not the answer that you're probably looking for right now. But it is new technology. And there's new things that we need to work on to make that work.

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Ari Gronich

2:33

Yeah, I just, I guess I tell people to do the water thing. I was selling water filters. When I was 18 years old. And we used to go into restaurants and so on, and we bring with us a portable water filter. Again, this is before Britta is before they were popular, And so we would go into the restaurants with TPM meters and add chlorine testers and stuff. And so we'd, oh, look how many parts per million are in here, you know, and how many? Like how much chlorine is in this, your pool should be here, this is here.

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Ari Gronich

3:13

And we would I was how we got business? Really. I mean, we literally go in there and people would look at us and go, Oh, that's in my water. You know, I can't unless somebody's showing them the proof right in front of them. It's really difficult, you know? There are so many reasons. And plastics are one of the main ones these days because they are estrogen producers. They're what's called xeno estrogens, that, yes, basically cause your body's hormonal system to deregulate and not function properly. And so that's part of why it's so important. So for if anybody is listening to this and go, Ah, that's not really for me. If you're drinking water, and breathing air, it's just for you. I just wanted to kind of, you know, get your take on that as well, because I think people don't realize how much of the world is affecting them. Because they just don't know about what it is that's happening to them.

AS

Adam Strong

4:17

Show. Absolutely. Well, some sometimes it can be a lack of awareness and lack of education, but sometimes it can also be ignorance. 

AG

Ari Gronich

4:30

This is true. And that ignorance that lack of that the willful ignorance I understand is kind of what you're saying is willful ignorance but willful ignorance is probably one of the most devastating things to our environment but also to our people will full environment it willful ignorance is what I you know, say is the reason why a bully can be a bully. You know, willful silence and ignorance of everybody else, so anything that you'd like to leave the audience with any gems, anything else? I mean, this has been a great interview so far. And I know I've challenged you a little bit more than most. So..

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Adam Strong

5:18

Well, listen, I like I first of all, I like the challenges. You know, I'm always fascinated by people ask really good questions. So I just want to say thank you for that. Really appreciate that. My last words of wisdom for your audience? Well, I think it depends on entirely where people are out, you know, so we're all at, we're all on different journeys, okay. And my thing is, is that, you know, don't mold yourself around what other people want you what you think that other people want you to be right? Don't I never give a shit about what other people's opinions and nor should you, at the end of the day, you got to do what you feel is going to be aligned to your core values. Number one, it creates happy it makes you happy and fulfilled. And Number three, like, for me, what makes me happy and fulfilled, like, when I get out of bed, Ari, it's not money that motivates me, okay, it's my higher calling my purpose, my biggest fear is to be is to leave this planet where I feel insignificant. That's my biggest fear. I guess my question to your audience is what is your biggest fear? What do you fear the most? And what is it that you if you were to leave this earth? If you were to leave this world? What is the biggest thing that you fear in your life? Mine is ignorant insignificance, right, whatever that looks like to you. It might be different to you, it might be that you don't feel fulfilled, you might not be happy, or whatever it is. But just focus on something that is true and is aligned to you. That's kind of what I wanted to say. 

AG

Ari Gronich

6:59

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I know the audience has gotten a lot out of this. So this has been another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich. Thank you so much for being here, where we're every day trying to create a new tomorrow and activate our vision for a better world. Thank you so much.

She recognized that many of her patients needed a more personalized plan to help them maintain their weight loss goals. By addressing the mental, behavioral, medical, and environmental factors that kept them from a meaningful transformation, her patients began to regain control in these areas.

Ari Gronich: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host or Ari Gronich and today I have with me Dr. Franchell Hamilton. She is a bariatric surgeon with not only several years of medical and surgical training, but chemistry psychology as well, who's now kind of grown a little tired of the system, as it is, and is looking to help support patients in a more holistic way. So I want I wanted to have her on here because she truly is part of who's making medicine, good for tomorrow, helping them activate their vision for a better world through medicine. So wanted to bring her on Dr. Franchell, thank you so much for coming on. 

Franchell Hamilton: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Ari Gronich: Absolutely. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background? And what made you go from traditional medicine towards some more holistic approach?

Franchell Hamilton: Sure. So I was traditionally trained MD, medicine, went through residency, general surgery, and then I did extra training and bariatric or weight loss surgery, and was in private practice for about 10 years. And it wasn't until I was in private practice, actually, kind of with my own patients doing the things the way I want it. To do that I started realizing the system that I've been trained all this time wasn't really effective. And I have three clinics, right. So we had a pretty large practice. We're in a big Metropolitan Dallas Fort Worth area. And I was probably one of the top geriatric surgeons as far as volume, what I started noticing probably about seven years in actually, that I was doing a lot more revision surgeries, which means they've already had a bariatric surgery, gastric bypass, sleeve, lap band, whatever it is, and they were coming back to get a revision surgery. And I noticed that several years in the practice changed from doing predominantly first time, weight loss, whatever, surgery, medication wellness, I do a lot of things in my clinic that I saw a lot of repeat customers that regained. And I had to ask myself, what am I doing here, like I did all the checkboxes that I was taught to do. All the patients had to go see a nutritionist, they had to go see a psychologist, they had to get their heart checked out. They did all the checkboxes that was required by insurance. And that was required from my training. But patients weren't getting better. They were requiring revisions. And even the ones that were doing just the medical weight loss, they just weren't progressing the way I thought they should be. And I didn't go into medicine just to be busy. Just to be a busy surgeon, I actually wanted to make a difference. I have a heart for people with a lot of medical problems and complicated obesity. And I really wanted them to not just treat their medical problems, but to resolve them. I wanted them to go away. And I felt like in that moment, we I wasn't doing the right thing for them. So I really had to kind of rethink what I was doing revamp and I actually got more education and almost like what we call Eastern medicine or holistic medicine during those years because I was getting burned out with traditional medicine because I felt like I was not helping my patients because they didn't get better. Like I was trained bariatric surgery will not only help them lose weight, but their diabetes and hypertension, cholesterol, all this stuff will resolve. Right. And it did for a brief moment in time. And then the majority of patients were regaining. So that was my turning point for me.

Ari Gronich: Awesome. Thank you so much for that and your dedication in general to wanting to find the best results for your patients. Because we all know that that's not happening so much in the industry right now. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you is what's been your, you know, the pushback from the system or from your colleagues, and so forth? Or what's been the adaptation from them where they've said, Oh, yeah, I've seen this too. And I also want to do what's best. So how can I get on board with what you're doing? So how have you seen on both sides of that?

Franchell Hamilton: So, believe it or not, I felt like and still feel like I'm almost like a sore thumb in my industry because I will tell you, especially in the surgical industry, a lot of us are them. They're not there yet. Like they just they operate the and to be honest, I don't even know if it's their fault, like we were trained as a surgeon, we see a problem, we fix the problem or take out the problem. And then we move on to the next thing before I started my own private practice, I was with a group that was very much like that I was employed. And I immediately got out of that, because I was like, this is definitely not the way I want to practice medicine. And the only way that I felt like I can even come close was by starting my own practice. So that's kind of how I ended up in my own private practice. But I will tell you, in my own private practice, it was a struggle, like, I felt like I got pushback from all sides, I got pushback from the insurance companies, I got pushback from a lot of my own colleagues, when I surgical colleagues, when I brought up the idea that patients have to do other things to help them with their weight, diabetes, when I talked about positive affirmations, or maybe including meditation or yoga, I got pushed back all the way around to the point where I had said, almost like leave those I'm not a part of a lot of those organizations. And from the insurance standpoint, they did not pay for any of the more holistic things that I wanted to do that I saw worked, I saw this work. And I even wrote a letter saying this is medical necessity, I think they need this, this and this. And it was denied left and right. And I often found patients were almost mad at me or my office because we couldn't get this approved. And I'm like insurance companies will pay for their blood pressure medication. But if I want it to treat their blood pressure in another way that I know would actually benefit them by helping them reduce stress, change their environment, whatever the case, I got pushback, I wasn't paid, the insurance company didn't pay. And a lot of my surgical colleagues thought I was actually kind of crazy. So I literally had to shut everything down and almost start over the way I felt like with my own vision, the way I felt like things that should be it almost gave me an aha moment. On the way healthcare was practice, like everything it was it was almost like a brief down moment for me, because I've been in this system for so long. And I didn't even recognize this was happening until my patients weren't progressing. And then if I was in fight with the insurance to get stuff covered, I felt like my voice really wasn't being heard. On the other side, some of my medical colleagues, medical non-surgical, were very open to that idea. So I had to shift almost to the more holistic or integrative community, where they got it, lifestyle medicine, doctors, integrative medicine, functional medicine, meditation therapist, yoga therapist, so I almost shifted into that community. And that's kind of where I felt more welcomed, because in my traditionally trained community, a lot of us, some of us are jumping over, but a lot of us are still with the typical mindset when it comes to how we should treat health care.

Ari Gronich: Right. So, you know, part of this show has always been a lot about the health care industry, because that's where I started. And, you know, I know from my own medical history, having a brain tumor that I was told, I'd be basically gaining weight until I was dead. And I was 342 pounds at one point where I'm just going okay, so I went on to a cleanse, I went on to another cleanse after that I did a 40 day fast, and I did a 10-day water fast. I mean, it was like one after another of just Something's got to give. And but, you know, misdiagnosed and mistreated my entire childhood. It's kind of why I'm in the business to begin with. What I what I saw was that results never seemed to matter. It was procedures and the incentive system is to do more procedures rather than to actually get the good results for the patients. And so, one of this is like the audience here. A lot of them obviously hear me a lot, but to the people that are in what they would say mainstream, I'm considered maybe woo woo because I don't have a doctor degree other than my doctor of metaphysics, right. So, I would be discredited, you know, because of that. So, you're a medical doctor who's in this industry, right? And so how do we get that system to start shifting itself to more of a results-oriented system?

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that because one of the reasons I got into, particularly obesity medicine was because of the labels like I was labeled as a kid, I didn't have the best childhood. And I had all this kind of like negative labels slapped on me. And so, when I got into medicine, I knew I wanted to be in a field, where people felt like either they were defeated, or they’re, you know what I'm saying they just have this negative connotation. So that's what drew me to obesity medicine in general, because there's all this negativity around it, that most of it is not true, which a lot of it I also felt growing up. And so I want it to be that kind of voice for my patients and be that advocate truly be that advocate. And that's one of the things when I got into medicine, where over time, I felt like I'm not advocating for them, kind of like what you were saying. It's a procedural driven society. I mean, we can talk about what happened in COVID, when elective surgeries got shut down, like there's so much stuff in the hospitals that got shut down, I think the way to change it is to do stuff like what you're already doing, talking to more people getting the word out what me and you are both doing try to promote, I still have my practice, it's completely changed now. But a lot of my work now is to get the word out on the way this healthcare system is having practiced in it for a decade before my eyes were open. And realizing like this is not the way it needs to be practiced. There are actually several communities of physicians now who also believe this, which is helpful, we are partnering with a lot of people like you like yoga therapists, like other people who years ago, they're just like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about. Yes, they do, because they're also seeing results. So it's a matter of like getting the word out there that these other modalities exist. And I think it has to be a combination of patients, patients now are also getting frustrated with their results, they're getting frustrated, for paying these high insurance premiums, and not having anything covered, and not getting the treatments that they feel like are going to resolve their medical problems. So I think it took everybody being frustrated and wanting to make a change in the system it's starting. And I think it's just the combination of us getting the word out joining together and getting a change in this area.

Ari Gronich: Yeah, so one of my questions, then is being that you're in the unique position that you're in, of being in that medical side, and now bridging the gaps. You know, to the western side, my question would be, how do we get some of those organizations that are individual like IFM, FMU, a forum, right? Those are all individual organizations to kind of come together and literally create the next kind of healthcare system. Because, you know, the way I look at it, the battle that we've been having has been about who pays the insurance company bills, right? Whether it's the government paying or whether it's the insurance paying, it's still who's paying, but there's been no talk about how do we make the system more effective so that people are healthier so that it costs us less money in general? And so that's kind of one of the conversations I like to have is, how do we come together in a way that honors and respects all aspects of medicine, minus, of course, the fraud and deceit and all that shit. But that honors the risk and respects all the good that medicine is mixed with all the good that the holistic side has to offer, and come and create a new system that just is outperforming the old system.

Franchell Hamilton: I agree. And that's a loaded question. Because as you and I both know, that's going to take a lot. That's going to take a lot of manpower. On all ends, physicians, support staff like you other health care workers like you and patients to kind of come in and say we want this change, I can tell you, I have stayed one of the reasons I've stayed with my foot in medicine, like clinical practice is so I can help dictate and start being the change. There's so many other opportunities, I've had to completely leave medicine and kind of and maybe at some point, I will do that. But right now, I am trying to bridge the gap. There are several people that are trying to bridge the gap with their patients and these organizations. So I sit on a lot of committees on a lot of these organizations that do not see it this way. yet. One of the reasons I started They'll stay on these committees. So I can almost be a voice inside that committee to help create the change that I think is needed. I'm, I still sit on my Council Committee for American College of Surgeons and so I'm over all of North Texas as a bariatric surgeon, I represent that one of the reasons I still stay there is so I can voice some of the changes that need to be made, I think it's going to take people higher up honestly, in these organizations to say something, and then to start kind of weaving, which we already had, we met each other. I've met several people who are on the same playing field, but I would have never met until I kind of started this whole thing. I think there needs to be a movement. That's what I'm talking about on my podcast and shows. That's what you're talking about. There's a lot a lot of us that are talking about it and we need to all come together, believe it or not, we are making some headwing. CMS which is Medicare, Medicaid, they the government insurance is considering at least looking at functional and integrative medicine, as far as coverage, which is huge. I know, it doesn't seem like a lot. But that is a huge thing that in general, we've been trying to push just like coverage for bariatric surgery, right? Like there's a lot of issues with that. There's a lot of these like grass roots going on in these organizations. I'm part of AMA, which is an American Medical Association. We're trying to in these organizations, I know there are several of them. And yes, we need to come together more, but we're trying to get stuff passed. So integrative and functional medicine has gotten a bill to Congress saying this is what needs to happen in order to help treat patients better, they've actually looked at it and are considering approving it. Once Medicare and Medicaid approves the coverage of functional and integrative medicine, which is currently not approved, that will be a ripple effect, and all other insurances will follow. So I think it's steps like that that's like big, it's hard for like the lay person to see it who's not working. And it takes years, it takes years. Like it took about six years for even that to get to Congress, you know what I'm saying? It just takes a long time for this stuff to happen.

Ari Gronich: So because it takes a long time, when it's us industry, people that are not lobbyists? What is the thing that we can do with our patients? Like what are what are the things that patients can do to accelerate it within their groups? Because I'll tell you, I look at all of the Facebook groups and you know, people, some complaining and some promoting and some other things, but all of them is like it's disconnected. And it's what I would consider to be frantic, complaining or gathering to complain instead of collaborating to succeed. So, my question is both for the patients and the physicians who are starting to work with their holistic counterparts, right? How can they combine together to create more power in that movement.

Franchell Hamilton:  So I think in kind of what we're doing, and this has also already started, where we're forming networks, right, and networks among our area, or region. And I think from a patient standpoint, they need to complain to their insurance company for coverage, which a lot of my patients when I was accepting insurance and alert or accept it, but when I was accepting insurance, I was like, you need to talk to your insurance and ask to get a coverage, believe it or not, when you're an insurance physician or practitioner of any sort, there are several people that's not a physician that takes insurance, there's only so much that we can do, believe it or not, insurance don't want to pay us but as the patient and I'm a patient too, you're paying into the system. So the patient has more power when it comes to their insurance than the physician or the provider does. So those complaints need to be directed towards their insurance companies demanding coverage or demand to leave. There's so many other options out there. If everybody pulled away from the insurance companies and just decided to that that's not that's not working from them, they have to make changes, right. This is what happened and financial infant structures. You almost like wherever the money is going. So in my community, we've formed networks with everybody massage therapist, physical therapist, nutritionist where you can either do like a subscription, which a lot of people are doing now, and you pay into this network, a subscription and it will cover whatever visits almost like an insurance But you're cutting out the insurance, you're cutting out the middleman, this is getting provided directly to whatever group that you're with, or you because a lot of us physicians, we just want to treat the patient, most providers just want to treat the patient. And so we will make something that's reasonable, and that they can afford a lot. And I can speak on physicians, and a lot of these holistic practices are no longer or don't accept insurance, and they're doing their own models, but we have to network and collaborate. Because if I can't offer something, I need to be able to refer that patient to other services that are in our cash pay, holistic integrative network that they can go see. And a lot of patients, believe it or not, are leaving insurance companies and only getting what they need in the event of traumatic or event. Yeah, exactly. And they're paying the doctors and the providers that are providing care for a lot cheaper than paying these high premiums in these high deductibles. So I think that's what needs to be done all over. And that movement has already started.

Ari Gronich: That's awesome to hear. I'm so glad to hear that that is going on. And we'll have to make sure that people know how to connect into networks like that, when they listen to the show, so we'll have links and stuff for that as well. So here is a, an off the cuff. Right? So let's say you're not taking insurance, right? I'm taking insurance, you're not taking insurance, you're getting results, I'm not getting results. Alright, so we're just taking a scenario that I think happens quite a lot. So we're going in for weight loss, counseling, weight loss care, right? How much is the difference in cost for say, bariatric surgery compared to a functional medicine approach? And, you know, an average cost, right? So a bariatric surgery costs, how much and then the average approach for functional medicine costs How much?

Franchell Hamilton: Well, in the other question, I guess we have to ask is the results, right? So okay. So the first part, so average bariatric surgery probably costs about 20 grand between the hospital and the doctor. And usually the doctor’s offices provide all the pre care and a lot of the post care. So about $20,000 functional medicine, typical subscription cost, cost about 100 and 100 to 150 a month. And so let's say 13,000, right? Are there I'm sorry, yeah, sorry, 13 100 a month. So 1300 for the year versus $20,000, for bariatric surgery. So that's a huge cost difference.

Ari Gronich: Okay, so now we're going to go to vote who results on both sides. Since you were talking earlier about how many people come back, let's just do that how many people come back after bariatric surgery versus how many people do average, see come back, meeting more care or knowledge or whatever, after going through a functional medicine program.

Franchell Hamilton: So with the functional medicine program, it's kind of ongoing, which it's a lot of support. And so people may not come back because they have recurrence of their disease, it's more just maintenance, right? So that's a little so we're not adding money into the system, because we're not treating anything per se anymore. We're just maintenance, right? So that taking into account, my bariatric patient population. For me, I felt like it was at least 50% that needed a revision, which is high considering the cost of a bariatric surgery. So I felt like there was a piece missing there.

Ari Gronich: So, is the cost of the revision about the same as the cost of the original?

Franchell Hamilton: No, it's significantly higher, significantly higher, because it's more complicated. Anytime you have to go and this is not this is all surgery. Anytime you have to do a revision, your complications increase dramatically. And so the length of stay in the hospital increases dramatically. Like your postdoc, potential complications are higher, like everything is more expensive in a revision surgery.

Ari Gronich: Okay. Cost of ongoing care for functional medicine since there really isn't any revisions. But what's the ongoing cost? Oh, it's just the 13. 

Franchell Hamilton: Yes, your monthly fee. Yeah. 

Ari Gronich: So on top of the monthly fee, for instance, whatever that is, so they're, you know, they're all programs are different costs, right. So then there's obviously supplement costs, food cost, so people are freaking out. Let's gonna cost me so much money to get healthy. So let's talk about those costs a little bit, how they go high and how they go low, comparatively to what other people are doing. So in bariatric surgery, typically there's medicine medications that they're taking, which have a cost, right? What's the average cost of the medications of maintenance for somebody who's going through the surgical route.

Franchell Hamilton: So bariatric surgery, you have to have supplements, they all have to have supplements. And there are specific variadic supplements that most bariatric surgeons or nutritionist, or baria-nutritions provide in the office because that's what the ASMBS, the people kind of write the rules say they need this supplement. And so there's an approval process. And so those supplements are usually about $60 a month for your basic supplements, let alone if you actually have some deficiencies, and then you start adding on and those supplements can range up to 60 to $100 additional a month, not to mention before surgery, there's protein drinks and supplements that you have to do. And after surgery for the first six to eight weeks, there's also protein supplements that people have to stay on to make sure they're getting all the protein that they need. And let me also mention to stay healthy. There are certain foods the bariatric patients have to eat, they eat less, but almost the same healthy foods to stay healthy that people in a maintenance program will need. So that's the bariatric cost, functional medicine cost. They don't have some way, if you don't have bariatric surgery, you don't necessarily have some of the deficiencies that bariatric patients get. So you don't necessarily need all of the supplements. Some people do, right? But very extra patients require us because of the way we rerouted you, you are 100% going to have these deficiencies because of the way the surgery was made. Other functional medicine patients that didn't have the surgery may or may not have those deficiencies, but everybody should be on a basic supplemental regimen that could cost anywhere from 40 to $60 a month. 

Ari Gronich: So what's the cost of obesity without any intervention at all? Do you know about those what those numbers are the statistics for those numbers.

Franchell Hamilton: So because obesity, so let me tell you what obesity cost big picture, because they've looked at different sectors. So obesity caused, apparently 40% of less workdays, obesity in general, because you're obese, you have all of these other chronic problems that come about that people don't even realize that they will get you're sicker. So COVID, for example. I mean, there's so many studies showing obesity alone is reason why there was high death and high hospitalizations with a ventilator. Okay, so outside of that, though, people your immune system is down, you have more missed workdays, or missed work days, which is costing the economy money, you have a higher propensity for diabetes, and all of those medications, hypertension, high cholesterol, depression, anxiety, we don't even care enough to get into the emotional and mental side of what obesity can cause. So overall, they were in this was probably several years ago, when that I saw these numbers, the cost of obesity was taking up about 56% of our total healthcare, that's just for obesity, because of all of the other sub-quella that it has with obesity and this, I use that number because that's the number I used back in the day to try to get bariatric surgery covered because it wasn't covered as readily. It's better, but we still have coverage issues. 

Ari Gronich: Alright, so, I want to do the numbers because I want people to kind of grasp the gravity, not just of the obesity, just of the cost of bad results, right? You think that it's costing you a lot to go into a physician, a doctor who actually gets the job done? Who is not taking maybe insurance, but is really about caring for you and your patients? Right? And then you go, but I can't afford you. I have to go to where the insurances and then you have to go to 15 people, you have streamlet high expenses. I find it fascinating that somebody can go in for an MRI without insurance and it costs $200 and they go in with insurance and it costs 1600 or 2000, or however much they decide to charge because the whole idea of insurance at the very beginning is we all pay into it. Cool, so that they negotiate better rates for us, right so that they are taking care of those kinds of things. And I think that people are in such a cognitive dissonance about what is really happening in the world around them like, well, they wouldn't, you know, choose money over, over my health, right? They wouldn't allow the system of medicine to be about that. And so there's this disbelief, even though we see after we see after we see the evidence that something is shifty is going on, right.

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And just to kind of piggyback on that, a lot of people think that they're there, it's almost like insurance for them as a security blanket of some sort, when it's actually not doing anything for you. I mean, I get it, I was in that boat too, for a while, like, Oh, we have to have just in case just in case, in, we're pouring 1000s of dollars a month into insurance. And over time, it's changed right now, everybody not only has their high monthly premiums, but they have this huge deductible that they have to pay out. So they're paying high monthly premiums. And then when you come see me or whatever, Doctor, you owe me your deductible, so your insurance is not even covering that they don't kick in until after your deductible is met. Even when I had insurance, I got rid of it myself. You're right, that same scenario happened to me, I needed an MRI, because of my neck. And so I was gonna go and pay insurance. And I had to pay my deductible. They're like, Oh, you need to pay a $2500 deductible. And I was like, pin. And then my therapist, my chiropractor, he ordered it. He was like, you know, I just I know a cash place, go pay cash, and don't tell him you have insurance. And I went there those 350. And I'm like, why when I had insurance, I was gonna have to pay $2500 out of pocket with insurance. I go to another place and say no, I don't have insurance. And I paid 350. Like, what is wrong with this picture, we're actually paying more into the system with insurance than without insurance the same way with physicians, my rate to see me is the same rate that insurance charged for a deductible plan. And so they're not only paying me that, that they're paying, they're also paying their monthly fee, you know, so it's, it's crazy.

Ari Gronich: Yeah, it's, it's intriguing to me, but it also intrigues me to the level at which I guess our industry just doesn't even pay attention or explain it or talk about it. Because to me, it's so obvious, right? If the only thing you did, as a scientist, as a medical scientist was look at the numbers of diabetes, of rates of autism, of rates of obesity, of rates of heart disease, right? You would say, Well, shit, we have all this new technology. But the results that we're getting are like 10 times worse than we were getting before we had all this technology. So you'd think that there'd be some cognitive awareness of this? So my question is, how do we bring back the cognitive awareness to people in their own profession? I mean, in their own world, so that it's not incumbent on the patients alone, to have to fight for their right to feel good?

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that was the problem. And I was a part of this, where I was completely clueless. I was completely clueless, because they didn't teach this to me in school. And I don't know if they taught it at the school you went to but believe it or not, in most healthcare, professional fools, they're not talking about this. And why would they talk about this, because, you know, this could potentially bring down insurance companies or whatever, I was just looking while you were talking, the gross domestic product for our first quarter was $22 trillion. And that's for to 2020. It has gone up, but it's gone up every year. And this was my kind of aha moment. So when I was giving you those numbers, this was probably back in 2018, or 19, when it was a little bit less, but it was still in the trillions. And so if you think 56% of OB takes 56% of that obesity takes up this $18 trillion number, how much we are spending because of obesity, and we're not doing anything. I mean, that was kind of my big thing. Like this person just paid $20,000 for the bariatric surgery, and they're back in here two years later, and now it's going to cost them 35 you know, because they have to have an extra hospital stay because now it's more complicated and the insurance are willing to dish this out. But when I requested that they see counseling or therapy or food addicts? You know, they denied that like, this does not make sense to me why as a country are we willing to spend money on stuff that may only band aid the problem, but we're not willing to spend money on things that will actually resolve the problem? I can't answer that, because I was blind to it also, because I didn't see it. And I don't even know what kind of the only reason why it was brought is because I want it better for my patients. Not everybody is like that some people are just happy going to work collecting, they're checking going home. And if that's the mentality, that they we will always have that system where our head is kind of down. And our blinders are on, because they're going to work the collecting their check, regardless of the healthcare profession. And they're not seeing this bigger picture. I think what helped me is because I was in private practice, I wasn't employed. But a lot of this, if you're in a hospital setting, or an employed setting, honestly, in the defensive providers, it's hard to see, because you have a patient who comes in with diabetes, you have 30 minutes to talk about their nutrition, prescribe some type of medication, and your hospital, or your clinic has already scheduled the next patient for you. So they've got to go. And that's all you see. And so awareness has to come from the people that are doing this, but only if they want to, like me and you talking about it can only help hopefully that helps people kind of think twice, especially providers that have been there in those employees conditions where their employer doesn't see this, they may not see this, you know,

Ari Gronich: Right, I just, you know, I look back on this last year, and I go, what an amazing amount of opportunity got lost, because we weren't allowed to talk about building your immune system versus treating a disease, right, we weren't allowed to talk about the ways in which we develop a system that is immune to these kinds of things, because we're so healthy, and our healthy immune system takes care of this stuff like, Good, right. And so I'd like what a missed opportunity we had this last year. The positive, I think is that we've gotten the opportunity a little bit to recognize and to start building the numbers for what you were saying a little earlier, which is look at all the medical intervention that did not happen this year. And the deaths by medicine toll, how much that's dropped. And we'll we might if somebody is actually interested in doing this be able to figure out what really is the cost and the toll death toll wise and cost toll of medical intervention that's unnecessary. what's the overages of what we're doing that we should not be doing? And, and so I'm looking forward to seeing if that gets any play in the community, you know?

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah, and I think it will. So I and that's one of the things like in my practice, I never did research. And I'm getting physicians, because I'm like, we need the data, the only way that we're going to be able to beat this thing is the data like in bariatric surgery, which is where I was for so many years, we have data on how bariatric surgery causes a decrease in diabetes, a decrease in hypertension, and how this is saving money, how much obesity is costing America and how we treat this right. So we have those numbers. But then that's it, it drops off, it doesn't talk about or show the aftermath, right? We hadn't even and I think part of it is because people don't want to, we did so much to kind of get it approved. And even my own community is not showing the data afterwards. Because once they get the surgery, that's it. There's no prevention, there's no once their diabetes has resolved. And that's what we're missing the boat. And part of that, believe it or not, is insurance, you're healthy, wanna pay for your one wellness visit a year in your lab work, and that's it. And then patients are left having to what do I do now as they're like medical problems and everything else is slowly increasing. We need data on what prevention does in the big picture. But what we do have data on and this is kind of what I'm trying to educate other physicians about is that every medical disease has increased since the beginning of time since 2000. Diabetes has increased, hypertension and cardiovascular disease has increased obesity has increased, yet, we're supposed to have some of the best health care in America. And we have all these technologies and all these great meds that have come out right these $1,000 meds that are treating epilepsy in cancer and heart disease. But yet the incidence is not going down. The incidence is not going down people because we're not doing prevention, because the focus is not on prevention. This is why the incidence is not going down. And I don't understand why anybody else is not seeing this. They do offer grants, which mean one of the companies that I'm working with digital health company, to increase access to kind of ask these questions, I will tell you what the pandemic I think, like you were alluding to help with open eyes, we had way more deaths than we should have, because of the pandemic because people were not healthy. And if we have the best expensive meds that everybody's paying for in the best health care of all these technologies, why do we have so many deaths, we have more deaths than some other underserved countries. So what, like what's going on there? So we need to start focusing on prevention. And I think, as the whole people are starting to see that now, I've seen more of a shift, kind of towards the end of this pandemic than I've seen before. So I think all of us like you like me, all of us who are like advocates of prevention, now is our time to try to make changes, policy changes come together, educate our other so I'm educating as many physicians as I can I host webinars, you know, conferences, I'm speaking at conferences, in order to cut these to get the word out conferences where it normally wasn't spoken about before. I think at this point, we as a medical society, all providers have to look at this and look at what happened this past year, and start scratching our head like something is not right. It shouldn't make everybody open their eyes this past year. 

Ari Gronich: Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree. Here's goes to the system, but it goes towards the fear side. So, yes, there are a lot of physicians like you who were blinded for a lot of years. But there's also a lot of physicians who have felt threatened. Right. So I'll give two examples. One is just there's approximately 70 plus holistic health practitioners who have been found, murdered, suicide, whatever, in like a very short period of time, it was like in a three year period of time, there was like 70, some odd, holistic health practitioners, many of them working on vaccine stuff, like the research and in vaccines, kind of interesting, because that ended right before COVID. And I didn't actually put that together until just now, but it's just a thing. So that and then the amount of like, we had a gynecologist in Orlando, who I met at a functional medicine training. And she had gotten, basically, her business completely shut down, she had gotten investigated by the AMA, she had gotten shut down by insurance companies, because what they consider to be the standard of care is if you're going into a gynecologist, you have four sessions that you could go in, where you either have to be prescribed a medicine or a procedure, if one of those two things is not done in four sessions, all of a sudden, you're not practicing in the standard of care. And she did that with a lot of her patients, because she was actually treating them holistically for whatever the ailments were that they were having. And so she had to, I mean, lose her entire practice. And so the fear factor, the only way, in my opinion, to alleviate fear is to become bigger than the bully. And the only way to become bigger than the bully is to get loud. And to bring a crowd. That's kind of where I'm looking at what you're wanting to do what I'm wanting to do a little bit. And so I want to talk to you about that. What do you say to those doctors who are doing frontier medicine, that are on the fringes of, of the new frontier? Really, it's frontier medicine for reason. They're doing the things that are getting the results that are currently not in the standard of care,they're afraid. What do you what do we tell them?

Franchell Hamilton: So, you know, it's really unfortunate that this is happening. And that has happened to me, I've been under investigation, because I didn't want to practice the way other people were practicing. So I've been through it. And I think one of the things is you have to, from a physician standpoint, data will help you a provider standpoint. So if you can show data that it's working, that will help you in a courtroom, for example, the other thing is, in every provider knows this a consent and making sure your patients understand. So I've gotten sued, and I've gotten investigated, and I've gotten dissolved, like dismissed because I have consents, and I tell them, this is the way we're practicing. And honestly, at this point, I even tell them, if you don't like this practice, you know, there's other people that are practicing other ways. But this is the way we're going to do it in order to get you to your surgery, or in order to get you to your weight loss goal, because this is what I found has worked. And it's not your typical medicine. And so I make sure they all my patients sign a consent. And I have data. So I didn't put it in a research form. But my EMR tracks, right, you can track the bloodwork, you can track the weight, you can track there's so many different ways to track it without doing an official study. And so I didn't do a study. And that's why I'm encouraging my doctors that I kind of talked to, let's all put data together that shows and then publish it. We need to put data together and we need to publish it. And believe it or not, this is the way medicine used to be practiced. You experimented, you experimented. And that's how breakthroughs came. And now stuff is so regulated in the United States. I go to these international conferences, and some of these European countries are so far ahead of us, because it needs to be regulated. Let me not like take that away. But I mean, come on, you know, how do you think polio was discovered the vaccine for polio? I mean, some of these things were through experiments, and as long as you explain to the patient whoever you're treating, this is the way I'm going to do things, you have data showing their cholesterol numbers are going down. Because this I'm treating with tumeric. And I don't want to treat them with a static drug, you know what I'm saying. But I'm still getting the same results as your stat and drug by doing the things that I've, they do yoga twice a week, meditate every day for 10 minutes, and I'm giving them tumeric. And this is their cholesterol numbers, right? That will hold up in any investigation or suit as long as you can keep that data. So that's what I would tell to the doctors who are going through this, or providers, because I've been through it and I had that I had my data, I had consent. And I'm not giving up. If this is something that you're passionate about, then what you need to do is start bringing people in with you grabbing people that you know, that's also practicing this because as he stated, you stated, I mean, we're bigger in numbers. So now, a lot of my colleagues are no longer unfortunately, my surgical colleagues, but they're my colleagues that are practicing very similar to what I do. So guess what, when one of them gets investigated, they're gonna call me or their lawyer can call me as a witness or one of us, and I will write letters on their behalf, I will witness to them on behalf, we are much stronger, like you said, and numbers. That's the only way. I don't even know if we can do it with money, because I know this is completely off the topic, but that whole COVID vaccine thing. There was definitely money involved. I don't Bill Gates, I mean, all of a sudden, you know that some of that stuff seemed a little questionable, to be honest. Um, I there was money involved. We don't A lot of us don't have Bill Gates money, you know what I'm saying? So the only way we can kind of start defeating This is by speaking up, don't feel like don't let investigators, lawyers states, like, close your voice down. Because if you're doing things the right way, they can't do it. I mean, it's frustrating. And it's depressing during the time because I went through it. But if you're doing things the right way, you're getting your consents, you're slogging your data, they can't shut you down. I mean, they can't.

Ari Gronich: Yeah, I've never been investigated. But I'm, I'm not a physician. 

Franchell Hamilton: It's higher among us because, you know, physicians, everybody's like, oh..

Ari Gronich: There's more scrutiny, which is part of why I want to talk to that side of medicine, because, you know, I watch Zeedog MD, for instance. And he talks a lot about the moral dilemma that physicians are having, because they're being told to practice in a way that is not equivalent to the reason why they got into business, right, why they got into the industry. And I don't remember the exact term that he calls it the moral, something moral injury, it's moral injury. And knowing that he feels that way, he and I disagree, obviously, on a lot of the vaccine things and what he considers science and what I consider to be clinical evidence are very different. But I like the fact that he's willing to have the conversations and so like, I would want to have a conversation with him. And you. And then maybe Dave Asprey, you know, who knows, like somebody who's completely on the other side of the pie, and has his own science to back up what he's saying. And I'd love to have these kinds of discussions regularly with it, like within view of the world, right, so that people can see the differences, how much more similar they really are than differences, and then how we get to a kind of a consensus for practicing medicine in a way that actually gets the results that we want. Because really, that's at the end of the day, the only thing that matters, right?

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah, I agree. And, and to talk about his moral injury, I mean, everybody talks about a kind of in the medical field, burnout, right? Like burnout is all of a sudden, significantly higher than perhaps 20, 30 years ago, you didn't really hear about it that much. I never heard about burnout in med school, like you know, or other people getting burned out. And that is why burnout is so high, because there's this mismatch on what a lot of providers or healthcare workers want to do. And what's happening even in nurses and you've probably talked to some nurses too, like I have worked with so many nurses who are just burnt out. And the reason they're burned out, most nurses are hospital employed, or for some type of facility employed, and that's not what they want it to do. That's not the way they wanted to practice. They truly want to help people. You know what I'm saying? And then you start to see like, we're not getting the results. We're not doing what I wanted to do, and that's where the burnout come, I got burned out because there was this mismatch in what I want it to do and what was happening. And boy did it hit hard. And so that's the reason so many healthcare workers are getting burned out is because we all live in a system where they're saying healthcare is this, and a lot of us are waking up and realizing, but that's not helping, you know. And so if there needs to be a revolution in healthcare, and I'll be the first to talk to whoever will hear me talk about this revolution, because we're not getting the job done. Our medical problems are increasing,and we're not doing anything about them.

Ari Gronich: And so for me, I feel like right now we're on a 19, or like an 1890s 1800, steam train. Right, and we're going Chug, chug, chug. And what I'm wanting to see is Ilan Musk's mag train going through the boring tunnels, right? And so bridging the gaps, I'm going to go really far back to where we were at the beginning of that conversation, bridging the gaps between the speed at which change looks like it wants to happen, because of the powers that be, and the possibility of what can happen if we have the movement with a leader that is like an Elan Musk, that is like, somebody who's there going, Okay, we're about to do this thing. Let's go, there's no option no stop in us, you know, like Kennedy saying, we're going to the moon by the end of the decade. There's no question, like, make that happen. Right. So if we were to do that, what do you see the steps are to making that happen faster? If you could, like, if you could imagine a sped-up version of what you thought was gonna happen? And then we could kind of plan that out? What would that look like?

Franchell Hamilton: So kind of, like you said, We need somebody who's already well known, already well recognized, to be an ear. And, and to also identify and be on the same page as what this movement is about. And to be honest, I think I think we have a couple candidates. And Amazon, for example, they announced a couple years ago, they're over the way the healthcare is being practiced, and they want it to do their own health care, you model, you know, and so these big corporations, I just saw thing about JP Morgan, they want to do, you need to find these companies, we all need to find these companies who want these big changes and who get it right. And then we need them to help us because they already have the clout, they already have the ear of America, to kind of say, this is what needs to happen. Oprah would be a great person, I'm still working on that, I'm gonna get up, I'm still working on that. So somebody like that, who's like, this is the way we need to change the way healthcare is done. And then she will have this movement of people who was already on board. So I think that's what we need to kind of bridge the gap, somebody who has the power in that can be a listening ear to all of these, our voices to say, and they don't even have to do it, right. There's enough of us on the ground level that can take it where it needs to go. But we need somebody who's going to listen and help kind of drive this force, because right now, you have the providers and all the providers and we're a big force if we work together, but we need somebody bigger, honestly, to be able to kind of compete, because once we do that, and when we do this, we're competing with the big pharma companies. We're competing with insurance companies, we're competing with a lot of Congress and Senate, people who honestly, they all have nice pockets, and they don't want things to change, to be honest. So you have to have somebody who has as much power with the crowd who can come back that because right now we have work competing with pharma, and insurance come billion and trillion dollar companies who likes everything to stand or wraps. If I publish an article or almost like some of those healthcare workers you were talking about, there's people more powerful than us, that can make things disappear. You know, so we need someone or a group of powerful people who understand the way healthcare is who have nothing to lose, and they can compete with those bigger companies. So that's what we need. I'm actively working on getting bigger companies involved when the digital company that I'm working with is talking to Walmart. I just got an email a couple days ago saying JP Morgan is looking for a change. So when we get This is part of the digital health arena, because this is also how we can reach more people, right? So once we see these us on this level need to jump on that, and how do we get at least in the door with their whoever their health and wellness coordinator is right, every major company has one of those, you have to start with that and then maybe move your way up.

Ari Gronich: Unfortunately, not every single major company has one of those. You know, that's kind of my part of my bailiwick, like I was 18, starting three of the first corporate wellness programs in the country, because my school backed up to Intel, Nike and Tektronix, in Beaverton, Oregon, and I was like, Oh, well, we need to bring people to our clinic. So let's just bring our clinic to them. I've done a lot of corporate wellness programs, a lot of consulting with companies. And unfortunately, the majority still do not have a corporate wellness program, what they have what they consider to be that is, they have a health fair twice a year, or they have a few booths with vendors, and then they give flu shots. And maybe they have an on-call psychologist, you know, where you call in to psychology department or something. But yeah, the creating a complete culture of wellness and accompany is definitely one of my bailiwick's that I wish I had more companies that would say, yes, easily to that possibility. But I do agree that the company's you know, here's the thing, following the money are the companies tied to the insurance companies in any way other than that, and typically they are through investment. And because the investment is from the insurance companies, it's really hard for them to do anything that's really going to get their employees well, so they could do a lot of treatment stuff, a lot of educational stuff, not a lot of policies in place to make it happen. And that's definitely an area where I would like to see shifted and changed. You know, we were talking a little bit earlier, you said, you know how burnout is I remember going into good Samaritan Hospital back in the late 90s, and early 2000s. And they still were on 30 something hour shifts. So they, you know, if you got a surgery at the 28th hour, and it was a 15 hour surgery, you were on for 40 something hours, I mean, some of the most unhealthy people I ever met. And it was a shame, because there's some of the kindest, most loving, giving people, get treated really poorly. And so that's part of the thing is, if we made the system a little bit better, and people were less sick, then the health care workers would have less moral injury, because they'd be doing the thing that they signed up for. And people would be treating them? Well, because they're not the what I would call the sounding board for the administration, for the insurance companies, they're, you know, like, the physicians, the providers have been the sounding board for all the complaints of their patients instead of who's really at fault, or who's really, you know, at cause. So let's, let's wrap up with, I want some positives in this as well, as far as like, I want, you know, things that the audience can do immediately if, especially if they're physicians, but if they're not, that they could do immediately to shift the way that they're getting health care. And some of those behaviors and mindset more to prevention versus, you know, reaction.

Franchell Hamilton: Yeah. And, you know, I'll piggyback to and I'll make sure I answer that, because we are kind of like this digital health company that I'm working with. And I have a couple of investments in a couple of them. And there have been some leeway on that area, because a lot of them want kind of digital health. And they have the way we're pitching it to them. Kind of like what I started earlier is if your employees are healthier, they can give you more work days, they don't have to have as much time off from work they don't have so it's benefits you to kind of implement these wellness programs. And so like I said, we have entered into Walmart which surprisingly their chief health officer is very open to the idea of integrative changes. We're still Working with we're working with them. And then other companies such as share-care, which are kind of in a lot of there are people in there are people making, we're making some leeway. But you're right about the train, right, it's Chugga chugga. But I will say at least it's not stopped, like, we're, we're moving, we're moving along slowly, I think it needs to get implemented much quicker. But because of a lot of the regulations, and the pocket, the insurance has such deep roots with so many companies like you just did it, like they're investing in other companies. And that kind of keeps everything at bay and kind of this vicious cycle. It's gonna take some time, but I think a lot of people's eyes kind of got opened after this pandemic. One of the things for physicians, I would say, in order to shift this mindset, if you feel like remember the reason why you went into medicine, first of all, and if you feel like when you see your patients on a regular basis, they're not improving, you have to consider why what other factors maybe the reasons for them not improving, and honestly, you'll give my information out. But this is kind of one of the things that I do now I help physicians kind of help figure this out, because they're all getting frustrated. And so it's like, let's take a look at how the way your practice is set up. And your assessment as a physician, we need to ask patients more questions, right? Like we I'm over the, what's your chief complaint, family history, medical history? Do you smoke? Like, that's fine, we'll get all that. But we need to truly ask our patients, how are they doing? Like, how are you doing? Like, we need to get a feel of where they are at emotionally, mentally. And to be honest, that takes up a lot of time. So physicians that are employed may not want to do that, then create an assessment that does it create a questionnaire that acts that you'd be surprised if you're seeing diabetic patients. When I switched up my questions the way I asked the questions instead of just prescribing them a regimen. Let's take diabetes, for example. They come in and I'm like, oh, you're diabetic? Here is a med or insulin. And here is your nutrition or diet that you're supposed to be on? I'll see you in two to three weeks, right? You need to start asking, Can they even afford that? To be honest? What do they normally like to eat, you almost need to cater more to the patient and work with them as a partner, not as like a doctor kind of throwing out orders and then you expect them to do it. One of the reasons why our healthcare is not working is because we're putting demands on patients. And then we expect them to do that. And then when they come back the expectations aren’t there. And then we were like, Well, why is your numbers not down? or Why didn't you exercise? or Why? And we didn't even ask them? How are they doing? How do can even do what we're asking them to do? That needs to be your question, if you're going to prescribe them some type of treatment plan, and it doesn't even have to be a medication you need to ask your patient, do you think you can do this? What do you think you can do to help bridge the gap? This is my goal for you. And this is where you are. So here are some options as the physician, what are some things that you think you can do for us to help bridge the gap? That needs to be the question you ask not just medical history, here is what the American Heart Association, American Diabetes Association says. And I'll see you in three weeks. So that is what I want to offer to providers in general, nutritionist, therapists, chiropractors, I mean, there's several people, we're all in this trying to defeat this together, show them help them understand they have to understand so many patients don't even understand go to their doctor, and then they don't even know why they're started on this or what medical problem they have. That was always so frustrating for me. Make sure your patient understands what they have. I mean, come on, you know, that's number one, and then make sure they understand what your goal is for them. Right as the physician or provider, what is your goal, and then you guys have to work together to meet in the middle. That's number one. Number two for the patient. Patients need to demand more, you need to demand better. And I have told my patients to like what do you want x? What do you want patient just like the same way physicians need to provide Why did I Why am I in medicine, if it's to collect a check, you're in the wrong field, go to admin. If you're doing patient care, you need to meet in the middle with your patient and for my patients. They're so quick to just go in, get their meds or get their refills and then leave and I'm like you need to demand more. This is your health. This is your body. This is your mind, body soul. What do you want for your mind, body and soul, I always tell my patients health is not absence of disease, you need to be whole healthy whole socially, mentally and in the body. So when you think of you need to think of health that way. And if you feel like you are not getting what you need, you need to start looking for ways to get what you need. So much stuff is done virtually now. So even if your primary care doctor, they provide her meds or whatever, but they're not, but you feel like you're not getting some of the other things that you need. Go online. There's a whole host of integrative you can use integrative medicine, lifestyle, medicine, functional medicine, you can use those terms and find people that you can treat virtually the pandemic has helped people like me treat people all over. So we're not limited now to just I'm not limited to just Dallas Fort Worth, I can treat people all over, you know what I'm saying. And so for patients, if you feel like when you're leaving your physician office, and you're not getting what you want out of that you need to find another physician, you're not married to that physician, and you need to consider if your insurance won't cover it, paying out of pocket long term to pay for your health, your health is an investment, it is the most important investment you will ever make. It is more important than your house, your car, what other people spend on money, your health is more important. So spending an extra 100 or 200 a month is nothing that's groceries or half of groceries for most people, you know what I'm saying? So you need to take time and invest in your health, that's the most important investment. You cannot have joy, peace, happiness, and all these other things that we strive to have or even help others if your health is compromised. So spend the investment. So those were kind of the closing points that I would tell both those patients and physicians.

Ari Gronich: One last closing point is what would you say to the system as it is? As it's going away?

Franchell Hamilton: That's a good question. Um, I would say that for sure the current system, we, we need to make changes we need what we're doing is not working. And I would be happy to see a transformation in our healthcare system to something that's going to resolve medical problems. So I am happy to see it go away in order to revolutionize healthcare and heal our patients in America. So that's and I feel like our current medical system is actually preventing us from being able to actually heal, not just treat that heal and resolve medical problems and make people truly healthy the definition of health.

Ari Gronich: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. I am so glad to have you on. And I know that the audience has gotten a lot out of this conversation, hopefully enough that they'll start acting upon it. We can all create a new tomorrow and activate our vision for a better world. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. Got it. Thank you so much. Audience I appreciate you listening in. This is our garage and it's been another episode of create a new tomorrow, where we are activating our visions for a better world today.