Rama Gheerawo is the director of The Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design at the Royal College of Art in London. Rama is an international figure within design. He won a Design Week ‘Hall of Fame’ award in 2019 and was named a 2018 Creative Leader by Creative Review alongside Paul Smith and Björk. He uses design to address diversity through age, ability, gender and race. He is a serial innovator in the field of Inclusive Design and Design Thinking having led over 100 international projects with government, business, academia and the third sector with clients such as Samsung, Toyota, AgeUK and Panasonic. He champions inclusive and empathic approaches through his pathfinding work in Creative Leadership, having trained thousands of people including over 700 civil servants. Bon and Ramna talk about inclusive design, the magic of designers working in healthcare and how Indian classical music served as a training ground for a career in design.