In this continuation of their conversation with MacArthur Fellow and justice reform leader Lisa Daugaard, Eric and Amy Barden explore how communities can define—and measure—real success in diversion and public safety. Lisa discusses what’s working, what’s changing, and how the Purpose Dignity Action and LEAD programs continue to evolve through constant learning and collaboration.

Together, they examine how shifting from punishment to care can create safer, more resilient communities—and what it takes to prove that change truly works.