Alison Simpson, CEO of CMA, continues the discussion with Tyjondah Kerr, Director of Program Development and Delivery at OLG and Patrick Bhang, Director of Retail Merchandising, RBC, in part II of affecting change and combatting racism and discrimination in the marketing profession.

Patrick Bhang's thoughts, opinions and insights are done so as a marketing professional and not as a representative of RBC.

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Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow,

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while also delivering on today's business needs. Ensuring that the marketing profession is as diverse and inclusive as the Canadians that we market to is a top priority for the CMA and for our membership.

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Alison: So in keeping with that theme, it's a pleasure to welcome back two members from our CMA DEI committee. We had a great episode, hopefully you've had a chance to listen to it, and there was so much great conversation that we wanted to follow it up with a second episode.

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So coming back to join me today, we have Tyjondah Kerr, the director of social responsibility at OLG. She's also a self -described chief disruption officer, which definitely comes in handy when you're focused on driving positive change.

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Patrick Bang is the director of retail merchandising for RBC. He's also my highly valued Co -Chair for CMA's DEI committee. It's trippy to have you both back with us today, and I look forward to continuing our conversation.

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So one of the positive outcomes from the third year of our DEI marketer survey was that a lot fewer marketers today are saying that they have observed disengagement among marginalized groups.

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So we are making progress there. They're witnessing fewer discriminatory behaviors in their organizations, and those are very, very encouraging signs. But the change has been slow,

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certainly slower than we would have hoped. So how do you feel about the amount of progress that we're seeing within organizational cultures, and what do you think we can do to help accelerate it? Tyjondah why don't you kick this off?

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Tyjondah: 100%. Thank you, Alison. I think honestly, we've just got to get people comfortable in the conversation and be clear on what it is we're trying to do. So for example, when I took on this work during the pandemic,

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it was about having conversations and telling my story about my journey and being, because I've been a part of OLG, it's going on 24 years in November. And so there were a lot of people that knew me and I knew them.

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And so there was a level of comfort already there to ask questions and to sort of invoke inspiration. And I think that what we need to do more of is to have more conversations,

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more storytelling, so that we can, because emotion is what's going to get us the impact change, right? And move forward. And I think storytelling is the way to go. Like, those statistics are talking about engaged employees.

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Engaged employees are happy employees. And they're engaged when they have a sense of belonging. So if you start telling stories about how you are planning, based on your experiences, planning to help create a culture that is inclusive for all so that folks feel that they can be themselves during a certain situation,

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then you've got the gold star and the north star right there. And people can move towards it. And so I think progress is slow, yes, but we can't stop. And we've seen a lot of folks fall off after George Floyd's murder and not do it.

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Budget constraints are different, you know, inflation, people are laying folks off and it might just fall on the wayside. And it's like people like the three of us who are very passionate about this because we know that this change will make for positive,

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a more positive future. I think we need to continue that conversation through storytelling, through connection. I really think that people just look kind of inward really and do some homework,

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see how far you can go and then just help another person out. At the end of the day, it's being service to others. And I think I might have strayed away from your question, but do you think that we just have to story tell and continue the work and make sure the conversation's there on a consistent basis?

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People should put it as a standing agenda for their meetings. Let's talk about EDI and just pick a topic. Keep the top of mind. Alison: I love that idea, because then to your point, it becomes part of the regular conversation. And people get more comfortable and are less concerned about,

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will I have a misstep? I'm not going to have a misstep because I'm open to having a conversation. So people are going to be understanding and help me learn and improve as I go as well. So I think that's such great counsel.

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Patrick, what would you add to this? Patrick: I would say that the research shuts some light into the benefits of having diversity at all levels and especially diversity at the top,

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so I think you have more employee engagement when they look at leadership above them and feel like, yes, that is achievable for me,

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I can get there because they're seeing it. There is more empathy at the top as well, so it's important for leaders to understand the circumstances that the employees from marginalized groups are going through as well,

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so whether it's listening or being part of the community, I think a lot of that does come out in the results of the research, so you see fewer disengaged employees,

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you see fewer incidents of microaggression when there is diverse leadership at the top, where no diverse leadership are not aspiring to have diverse leadership.

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The other thing I'll say is there is an intimidation factor as well, so the element of microaggression, if you're not from marginalized communities,

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you haven't experienced in some of that, so your experience is very different, but there is intimidation in the sense that there is un clarity of what that is.

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I have few leaders coming to me and said, I'm not sure, one time I was upset, I may have been taking my frustration out on somebody, it's that microaggression,

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so to Tyjondah's point, there is a lack of awareness around what some of the terms are, and as the advocates and community leaders,

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I think we just have to make sure that we are out there adding clarity to some of the things that we're talking about, and you know making sure that there is safe spaces,

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if somebody doesn't fully understand what that is, is having a safe space for them to speak up and for us to have that conversation. Alison: That's such a great example Patrick of how you personally have created a safe place because for that leader to come and ask you that question there's a sense of vulnerability and more importantly there's a desire to get better and to really understand.

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It'd be hard to have that safe place especially for some more senior leaders so I love the example and kudos to you for helping being part of the solution when it comes to that. We've talked a lot about what we can do to positively impact internally at our organization but as marketers we also have this absolutely amazing opportunity to leverage the marketing profession and the marketing communications that we do to also

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bring to life diversity and the power of a more infinity and approach to marketing. So there's absolutely no doubt that developing marketing strategies that truly resonate with our increasingly diverse customer base in Canada is a fundamental driver and builder of business and sales and I'd love each of you to talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you see in this areas some of the opportunities you see and

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what steps you've taken or a contemplating taking to help address the opportunity and why don't Patrick why don't you continue the conversation you shared some great examples earlier.

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Patrick: Thank you Alison. So if I think about the challenges that we face in some of the work that we do at RBC as well we are the three things that really come to mind for me one is the authentic representation in images and soft photography so you know the struggle is real I've been part of campaigns and we're trying to get images but it's not in the right context it doesn't have the authentic tone to it so that you

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know we are trying to get around that we do our own photo shoots but it's hard to do a photo shoot for every campaign right right? Especially in an environment like today where there's a lot of,

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you know, efficiency measures that are being put in place, right? So I would say that, I think we need the support of stock houses, of our agencies to ensure that we are building the pool of images that reflects the communities that we serve.

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The second thing I would say is we need more diversity at all levels, not just on the client side, but also on the agency side, right? You know, if somebody's writing a brief that is by reaching cultural audiences as well,

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because if you just think of the stats we went through, right? So that's mass, that's your mass audience now. What's the context? Do you have the context? Do you have, you know,

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a sense of what their needs are to put your product in that perspective in terms of adding value to the audience, right? So I would say, you know, if you don't have that perspective,

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then it's hard. But if we have diversity within your teams, you can challenge each other, you can bring different perspectives in, and you can open up your pool of understanding,

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right? So and it's something that we do within our teams as well. So our team in retail, marketing, merchandising, we are quite diverse. And every week we get together,

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we look at creative with a critical eye from our own experience with this LGBTQ + whether it's from a cultural lens, whether it's from an age lens. You know, we look at it critically and be very vocal about sharing how we feel when we see that creative,

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because we put our consumers head on and we say, okay, does it feel like it's not connecting with us? Does it feel like it maybe I may go as far as maybe it may be a little offensive,

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right? Because it's missing that aspect that I care about. or it's talking to me in a different way. So I think those things are important. So having diversity at all levels, a client as well,

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supply side, I think is important. And then removing bias from the hiring process, right? So how do you ensure that, you know, because somebody's a newcomer, you're not discounting the experience,

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you're not discounting their education. So an interesting story. I was having a conversation with a hiring manager, and the hiring manager had, he was sharing his recent experience on hiring and he had great intent.

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He had the intent of, I'm going to ensure that, you know, I have a diverse pool of candidates and I'm going to put them through a panel of stakeholders and my partners.

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So he did that. He came through with two candidates, one from the South Asian background and who was a newcomer three to three years in,

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I believe. And the other was Canadian white male, the other South Asian newcomer male. So really, you know, good experiences. And the candidates went through the panel and they have selected the white male,

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you know, both had similar backgrounds in education. So the hiring manager felt good because he went through the process and as he looked back, he looked at the panel of folks that were interviewing the candidate.

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And so there was an aha moment to it. They all white males who were in the panel and I didn't see that and white male as well. So it was, you know,

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he caught most of the things right, just that right. The last part, he missed. So, you know, the point here is we have to look at it.

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We have to share best practices, having a diverse panel, folks interviewing the candidate. I think it's important, right? And, you know, I think he had the right intent. So kudos to him. And,

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you know, it's a learning that he'll take away. So it's great to see that moment. I would say those three things, authentic representation of images and soft photography, more diversity at all levels. and lastly,

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how do you remove the unconscious bias, in this case, in the hiring processes? Alison: Those are such great examples in that last one, in particular, just so resonates, that you go to all of this effort,

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and then with the best of intentions, miss the importance of diversity on hiring panel as well. So thank you for sharing that experience, because it will make us all better as we go through a similar process.

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Now, Tyjondah, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this as well. - So I can't say that any better than Patrick did, it was amazing. The only other thing I would say is cultural humility. I think if you take folks through,

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and it used to be called cultural competence, I just know the word competence, it makes you seem like you're incompetent. So I like the cultural humility, which is understanding from the grassroots level, different cultures,

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be educated on different cultures, because different cultures interact differently in the day to day. And Patrick's point is we're hiring for more diversity, and we're becoming a more diverse workforce.

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We have to understand that our culture plays a huge role in how we communicate, how we interact. For the longest while, I would not talk in meetings, because I was taught not to speak until I was spoken to.

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I'm from the Caribbean, and there was a big deal, and we're a very colonized island as well. So the white man was always right. It was a thing for me. I had a lot of internal things I had to work on.

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So building on everything Patrick said, the only thing I would add is that those leaders, those folks making the decisions, do some cultural humility work, so that you understand different cultures and how we interact with one another. Alison: Thank you so much.

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I really appreciate you both being open to sharing your personal experiences as well, because they're incredibly illuminating for us. Now, helping enable and equip the marketing profession to be part of bringing more diversity,

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equity, and inclusion to the world, and the profession that we're part of, is obviously an important part of the DEI committee, and certainly an important part of the CMA mandate as well. So we've introduced some new tools,

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like our DEI resource hub on the website, the committee that you're both very actively involved in and contributing to, regularly publishes leadership on the topic, and also recently worked with us to develop and release a discussion guide that really helps share some tangible actions that marketers can and should take.

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So since you were very involved in helping pull these resources together, where would you direct marketers seeking to better understand how best to make a difference? Tyjondah, I'll let you kick this off and then Patrick would love to have you build on her feedback.

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You said it right there. Go on the CMA resource guide. There's a lot in there. We worked really hard to get that stuff in there. There's an article for me in there too, so I like it. Honestly, I've helped people all the time.

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Alison, my very first thing is you've got to do the self -work. Not everyone are going to address bias. Not everyone is going to say, are going to be brave enough even to look inward and say,

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you know, that was a racist comment. I had a lot of stereotypes in there and I need to pull myself back. People don't say that openly. A lot of people don't like to know that they were wrong in any kind of situation. And so I always like to take a step back.

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If you can to reflect personally, I think you have to do a lot more self -work before you even start to go and look at resources and do this work because it's hard and it's uncomfortable. And so not everybody likes to feel uncomfortable.

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I know I don't. I know I'm going to get to a level of comfort. I'll go through it. And so as much as there's so many resources out there, Alison, like you just Google diversity and 500 million things that come up.

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And so there's, if you want to learn in this space, there's a lot out there. There's a lot for you to do. But I would say before you do that, just what are you trying to accomplish? Do you want to be a better human?

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Do you want to just work better with your employees who are across different cultures? Or is it that I just want to jump in and help my community and my community is growing and it's very multicultural and it's very diverse from people from that has more accessibility or to 2SLGPTQ+ plus communities.

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Ask yourself why you want to do it. Do some self -work and then take a Google and go in the direction you want to go in. But I do say start. If you're willing to start, I applaud you.

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Alison: First and foremost, start, you're absolutely right, and then looking internally at ourselves is absolutely the right place to start as well. Do you have any favorite resources for us starting our own work?

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Tyjondah: So I fell in love with this work following a woman by the name of Mary Frances Winters. She has her own consultancy that helps folks in this EDI work,

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and she approaches it in a very similar way than how I approached EDI here at OLG. So it's the Winters group. Again, Google it, they're online. It's an American company, but you have a lot of listeners,

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so it's good. But valuable content, regardless, on where to get started, and they really talk about the self -work that you have to do and the questions you have to ask, and how do I talk about race at work?

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It really gets you into that comfortable setting so that you can impact change. So that is my favorite website. I use it now, even though I'm out of not doing EDI -specific work,

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I'm more doing more social responsibility, but I still jump on that website, read their newsletter, and get tips of how to be a better leader and how to impact positive change in my workplace. Alison: Many thanks.

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You're welcome. Patrick, I'd love to hear your advice as well. Patrick: As Tyjondah said, there's a lot of resources that you can tap into online. I'll give a shout out to our committee member,

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Darian Kovach, who leads Marketing News Canada. He does a great job with his podcast, where he interviews marketers from diverse backgrounds on challenges of today and some of the key tools,

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especially on the digital side, and also in terms of how to connect with diverse audiences. So I'd say Marketing News Canada is a great resource for marketers in general, but also to tap into different perspectives.

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Darian is an Indigenous leader, so he brings that perspective into the conversations as well, which is great. I'm a true believer in learning by doing, so I would encourage,

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if you are interested, is to participate in, you whether it's an ERG, within the organization, employee resource group, whether it's organizations like us in Canada,

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that supports Pan-Asian leaders, whether it's COF-P, that supports urban financial professionals from black communities, how to participate in that? You don't have to be from the community,

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but you can be part of that community. And from a cultural standpoint, you can participate, you can gain different perspectives, CMA as well, you know, you can be part,

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you know, of some of the work we are doing as well. So, you know, CMA inclusion happens every year where we invite leaders from different organizations to be part of the conversation.

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If you're interested, I think that's great to bring a perspective. So I think there's a lot of opportunities and, you know, to take, you know, do a short -term or long -term volunteer gig and learn from folks from,

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from those communities. And I think there's a lot to learn that way. Alison: Such great advice. I really want to thank you both for your incredibly valuable insights today. I love the fact that it's been sharing perspective,

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but also giving us some really actionable ways that we can start making a positive impact as soon as this afternoon or tomorrow. So I really appreciate that. And I want to close by giving each of you a chance to leave us with one final thought.

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So Patrick, you can kick things off and then Tyjondah, you can officially wrap up our time together. Patrick: One final thought is more of a one final ask. Canada and newcomers coming to Canada,

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they need mentors. There is no guide in terms of some of the cultural nuances, some of the language nuances, some of the culture nuances in Canada. I'd say be a mentor to a newcomer and,

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you know, help them settle into a country faster. New Canada is a beautiful place. It's an amazing diverse community. Let's bring them in. Let's support them and let's make sure they're successful for our own success in the future.

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So, you know, TRIAC is a great organization. They're looking for mentors. We are looking at a mentorship program for CMA. So if you're interested, reach out to us and we can connect you to the right resources.

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Tyjondah: I love that, Patrick. And I'm putting up my hand now. And I would say, I think my closing thoughts, Alison, is that please be okay to lean into your discomfort.

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I think that's what I'm going to tell folks. It's like lean into it. It's okay. There's a huge community on us who among everyone who want to impact change. So lead into the discomfort because it does lead to change.

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And then at the end of the day, we're human beings and we're all on this earth to be of service to one another. And so part of that discomfort is being there for others. And as long as that's our priority,

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we'll get this work done. And I'm going to just do a little mic drop there. We do it in service to one another. Alison: That was a very powerful mic drop. So, Tyjondah and Patrick, thanks again. I knew when we the three of us got together that the time was going to fly by and that certainly has proven to be the case.

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And I just want to thank you once again for giving us very actionable and powerful ways to walk away from listening to the podcast and really start making an even bigger difference. Thanks for joining us.

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