CMA Connect

Is brand love measurable magic or marketing myth? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson and Elemental's VP of Client Services, Justin Haberman, dissect the power of emotional connections in business. Discover why brand love matters, how to quantify it, and the touch points for fostering lasting consumer relationships.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:22 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. W  ith your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:00 - 00:00:42:18 Alison Today's episode is all about brand love and building deep emotional connections between brands and the consumers in a very fast paced, results driven marketing landscape. And joining me today is Justin Haberman, who is the Vice President of Client Services at Elemental. He's also a member of our CMA Brand Council. Justin has a real passion for creating these lasting bonds between brands and their customers.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:03:12 Alison Justin's also worked on both the brand and the agency side of the marketing. We share that in common, and he's run and managed PnLs for leading brands in highly competitive sectors. So he really understands the importance of brands delivering ROI as well. He also brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to the table. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this very important topic with him.

00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:12  Alison And in the episode, we're going to dive into the concept of brand love. We're going to explore why it matters more than ever in today's marketing landscape and its role in building business. Justin will also share his thoughts on the difference between brand love and brand loyalty, and how marketers can effectively measure and quantify the impact of brand love on their business.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:20 Alison Welcome, Justin. It's great to have you with us today. 00:01:25:22 - 00:01:30:06 Justin Thank you. What a great introduction. I am very excited to talk brand love today.

00:01:30:08 - 00:01:38:02 Alison Well, let's dive right in. I want to start by having you define brand love, and how in your mind it differs from brand loyalty.

00:01:38:04 - 00:01:57:15 Justin So yeah, I think it's a good question because at one point in time, you know, loyalty and love were one and the same. And they both measured brand loyalty. But nowadays, as we've, you know, started innovating the way we can measure loyalty, there's been a divide where loyalty can be more of a purchase loyalty or behavioural loyalty.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:07:00 Justin And those are things that we can easily measure, where brand love is more of an attitudinal loyalty, and it's a deeper emotional connection to one's brand.

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:36:03 Alison I think that's a such a great observation, when I also think about loyalty versus brand love. There are brands like Ferrari that many people have great affection for, and brand love for doesn't necessarily translate to purchase affinity. And then there are other brands where loyalty can be incentives through different loyalty programs. So that's a different kind of loyalty that probably comes with affection, but doesn't necessarily have to come with brand love.

00:02:36:05 - 00:03:05:08 Justin Well, exactly. And, you know, there are things like you mentioned that can be incentivized. And some of those things can actually take us down the wrong path, because, you know, one may be loyal to a brand because of a promotion or convenience or even proximity, but those aren't necessarily true measurements of brand love or brand loyalty. You know, a good example that I like to give is an analogy of how I choose my barber.

00:03:05:13 - 00:03:25:05 Justin Right? So I've been going to the same barber for the last year, and it's not necessarily because I'm extremely loyal to him. You know, if he were to move a city away, I wouldn't follow him. I go to this barber time and time again because it's easy for me. It's right down the street. And, you know, for something like a haircut, I don't want it to take up too much in my day.

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:42:01 Justin So if you looked at the metrics that are available, engagement or purchase, you're going to see, wow, Justin's really loyal to his barber, but it, on the other end of it I'm really not. And so I think there is a false measurement that a lot of marketers lean on, which can get us into trouble.

00:03:42:03 - 00:04:00:06 Alison I love your barber example because based on your description, which I think is a very astute one, I actually do have brand love for my stylist because I moved and now it's a,    instead of being a ten minute commute, it's a 40 minute commute. Yet they still have my business. So it's such a great example of the difference between loyalty and brand love, for sure.

00:04:00:07 - 00:04:13:12 Alison So why do you believe that focusing on building brand love and emotional connections with consumers is the greatest opportunity for marketers, especially when we're in a world very much focused on short term results and sales numbers?

00:04:13:14 - 00:04:34:06 Justin Right. Yeah, and it's a discussion that I have quite a bit. I mean, it's really easy when you need to answer to shareholders or managing your PnL. It's really easy to look to the short term results. You know, how do I hit my numbers this quarter? Unfortunately, you know, when you start taking that approach, it's this never-ending race to chase sales.

00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:13 Justin And it can be very reactionary. And so the value that comes from building a brand or focusing on brand love is it's a little bit of like a cheat code or a shortcut for driving future sales. And I really encourage marketers to take that approach and be a little bit more proactive in how they invest in that approach.

00:04:56:14 - 00:05:17:05 Justin So, you know, another analogy or example I'll give is, you know, why do we put away money for retirement? It's really easy to spend money on the things we need or want right now, but we invest in a retirement fund to make our lives easier in the future. And that is kind of how I would encourage a lot of marketers to look at brand building efforts.

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:41:18 Justin It's making our future lives easier, more profitable. It's going to be a lot easier to obtain new clients or new customers and retain new clients and customers. So there's a lot of value that comes from that. And on top of that, I think a lot of people these days, especially the younger generation, they really want to love a brand and they really want love to be returned back to them

00:05:41:18 - 00:05:45:15 Justin if they're going to invest that time and effort into a brand.

00:05:45:17 - 00:06:18:22 Alison So I've been in the CMO seat in very competitive sectors before, so I've felt the heat firsthand. I'm a big, big proponent and believer in the power of brand. I've also faced the pressure of quarterly monthly sales results and delivering results, so it's always helpful to have proven examples or any starts too, that our listeners can leverage with some of their maybe skeptical colleagues or with the executive suite to really help validate why investing in brand is so important.

00:06:18:23 - 00:06:24:00 Alison If you have any cases or stats that you could share, that would be, I know our listeners would love to get their hands on it.

00:06:24:02 - 00:06:53:09 Justin Yeah, of course. I mean, I've looked at a few different stats over the years. One that jumps out is close to 90% of consumers are prepared to love a brand, and they want that type of relationship with their brand. That's a huge number that speaks volumes to how we need to build and foster those types of relationships. You know, a lot of people are investing, like I mentioned before, time, money, etc. and they want to do it for brands that live up to their values, share the same beliefs.

00:06:53:11 - 00:07:16:08 Justin So that's one that comes to mind. Another one is probably on the more you know, profitable side. When you invest in a brand, it's a lot easier to make more money. And you know, we see that with some numbers that I've come across in terms of, you know, it's a, it's seven times easier to sell to an existing customer than to try and sell to a new customer.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:18:11 Justin So those are just a couple that pop out.

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:28:15 Alison So you've compared building brand love to building interpersonal relationships. And I think that's a very apt analogy. Can you elaborate a bit on the analogy and also share some of the different stages involved?

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:49:21 Justin Yeah, I'm glad you called that out because, you know, when we talk brand building, it's one thing to get people on board with the value of it, but then it's another thing to try to explain how do you achieve it? There's a lot that goes into building brand love, and I think because of that, a lot of people are hesitant or scared to dive into it.

00:07:49:21 - 00:08:18:04 Justin And so, like you mentioned, the the analogy to building interpersonal love is a good way to remind people how easy it can be. We're all experts at it already. It doesn't have to be this daunting task. We've all, you know, dated, we've all fallen in love with someone. Well, at least most people have. And so, you know, if you start looking into how that relationship evolves, you can translate that into some of the things you need to do as a brand.

00:08:18:06 - 00:08:41:07 Justin Simon Sinek, marketing guru, author. He talks about how to grow love and I really liked his explanation of how to do that. He talked about how love doesn't happen overnight. It's not a moment in time, you know, you don't love your husband or wife or significant other because of one giant thing they did. It's a lot of little things that add up over time that people remember.

00:08:41:07 - 00:09:05:18 Justin And that's what, you know, creates love in these relationships. So I really encourage a lot of brand marketers to look at their brand-building efforts in a similar way. You know, look at all the touch points and where you can build love over time and comparing it to how love grows, you know, from a personal standpoint. You start by dating someone before you get married.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:32:02 Justin And there's kind of three stages of love. There's the initial passion, lust phase. And this is where you're trying to, you know, create an attraction with someone. And from a brand perspective, this is where you want to get them excited about your brand. Promote trial. Get them to try it for the first time. And then you move to this intimacy stage where it's all about closeness and connectivity and building that relationship.

00:09:32:07 - 00:10:01:15 Justin And from a brand perspective, you know, this is where you start looking at usage frequency, getting people to break routines, get them to adopt you in their everyday lives. And only once those two things have happened can you start moving to the decision or commitment phase. You know, from a personal standpoint, this is maybe the big marriage proposal, but from a brand perspective, this is when brand love really happens and when people are truly loyal to you or a product or a brand that you're promoting.

00:10:01:17 - 00:10:21:13 Alison Building on the analogy, sadly, one in two marriages ends in divorce, and brands also can run the risk of their consumers divorcing them. So what can be done to help prevent divorce or losing that connection and that level of love from your audience and consumers, once you have it.

00:10:21:15 - 00:10:47:06 Justin Right, it can come and go pretty quickly. And so I think to prevent any kind of divorce or disengagement, you need to remember that this is a never-ending job. Just because you won someone as a customer or just because you got married to them, it doesn't mean that the job is over. In my opinion, that's the moment where the job is just beginning, and that's where we need to focus more of our efforts, right?

00:10:47:06 - 00:11:06:22 Justin You need to continually keep people guessing, coming out with new things, finding new ways to exchange ideas. All of that comes in really handy with keeping people connected and engaged. And I think that's why, like, social media has gained so much popularity, because it is a way to do exactly that.

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:14:02 Alison So is brand love feasible for all products? And especially when I think about ones that are much more commoditized and mass?

00:11:14:04 - 00:11:49:05 Justin I would say for sure. There's a reason why entire industries have been built on brand love. You know, I look at the streetwear industry and how brands like Supreme can sell a plain white t-shirt for 80, 100, multiple hundred dollars. It's because of the brand they've been able to build. You know, you also look at examples like No Frills, which is a value brand, private label brand that typically or traditionally has never had a huge emotional connection with it.

00:11:49:06 - 00:12:10:17 Justin They've been able to do a great job. And kudos to the marketers on on that team for building a relationship with their audience. You know, they were able to look at some universal truths that existed of how people looked at private label brands and kind of spin it on their head and, and take ownership of how people like to shop and, and how people can feel proud about finding a deal.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:18:06 Justin And, and that's just another example of, you know, I think every product, every service, can have a brand.

00:12:18:08 - 00:12:33:04 Alison Those are great examples, Justin. So it's obviously important for marketing to demonstrate business impact. And that can also be more challenging for brand marketing. So what are your thoughts on measuring the ROI of brand-building efforts, and what metrics or tools would you recommend?

00:12:33:06 - 00:12:58:12 Justin It's a very, very tough one, for sure, because everyone wants to find that return on investment, and with something like brand-building, it can be more difficult, but there's places to look right. Things like attitudinal surveys are a great way to to measure it. Things like reputation quotients that go into really understanding, like the emotional quality of an experience and not just surface level things.

00:12:58:12 - 00:13:25:07 Justin So I urge people not to get caught up in some other measurements, like engagement or retention, because like we mentioned before, it can be a little misleading. But to elaborate on on this, I also think, there's two other points that I want to mention. One is, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to. You know, we as marketers, we're also salespeople, and we need to figure out how to talk about things in a way that resonates with our audience.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:47:15 Justin And so if you're talking to a CFO, your answer may be a little different than if you're talking to, you know, a marketing director. I'm just picking positions, but you really need to talk about things in a way that is going to matter to the people you're talking to. So an example of that would be if I was talking to a CFO, I was talking to someone who really cared about the numbers.

00:13:47:17 - 00:14:10:04 Justin I would start trying to connect the dots and what my brand building efforts could do. So, you know, if I can drive future demand and I can measure that through unaided awareness, I maybe can then link it to, well, if people have a higher unaided awareness, what's their cost per acquisition? And does that start going down because they're now further down the funnel?

00:14:10:04 - 00:14:35:11 Justin And if their cost per acquisition goes down, does that mean that they have a higher consumer lifetime value? I'm just throwing out measurements right now, but looking at different metrics along a full path can be a way to answer that for someone who's very number-driven. Whereas on the flip side, the other way to look at it is to spin it on its head and kind of remind people of why they make certain purchases.

00:14:35:13 - 00:14:57:01 Justin You know, why have you made certain decisions? Why have you chosen one product or one brand over another? And once you start relating it back to people's personal experiences there, there is a light bulb switch moment where they realize, well, actually, brands do have an effort. And even though I may not be able to measure the way I want to measure it, it still matters.

00:14:57:03 - 00:15:26:12 Alison There is skepticism around why brands important, and it's it's still too often thought of as, if you have money left over invest in brand, which is completely backwards thinking. But when you're working on monthly sales reports, when you're reporting to a board on a quarterly basis, showing quarterly results becomes your Kryptonite in many ways. So and if you layer on top of that, a tough economy, the brand budget can be one of the first things that gets cut.

00:15:26:14 - 00:15:39:19 Alison So the power in your example with Supreme and No Frills was given to very easy to understand examples of how they have defended their business and profited by investing in brand.

00:15:39:21 - 00:16:05:06 Justin I mean, a couple other brands that come to mind, with one that jumps out is something like Heinz and their their efforts in building brand and the amount of money they put behind their brand-building efforts. You know, I think of the one campaign that was Draw Ketchup. I forget if that's the exact title of the campaign, but when, you know, they went to market and asked people to draw ketchup, the first thing people drew was a Heinz bottle.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:33:02 Justin And that just shows the power of brand-building and how it can help elicit a deep-rooted connection with people that doesn't leave their mind. And it keeps the brand top of mind. And when the brand's top of mind, they walk into a store and the first thing they see is something that's recognizable, like a Heinz ketchup bottle, they're going to go grab that off shelf versus having to put in the time to do more research to educate themselves on the qualities of different ketchup bottles.

00:16:33:04 - 00:16:41:08 Justin Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's a shortcut moment that makes selling much, much easier and much cheaper.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:58:15 Alison That's a great example. And the other Heinz campaign that I love, that was really built on a universal truth, is that behind the back-of-the-house, in a restaurant. You see people with Heinz bottles filling it with generic ketchup. And I waitressed my way through school to pay my own way. And we actually did that.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:15:07 Alison And then you would take out to the table, and there were customers that absolutely knew when they turned over that Heinz bottle, if the ketchup was coming out too fast, it wasn't the real thing. And they called us on it. So that's such a powerful example of why brands are important and how it does ultimately drive strong business results as well.

00:17:15:07 - 00:17:17:22 Alison And that's also a great example of brand love.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:44:06 Justin Exactly. I mean, another example that comes to mind is the Pepsi versus Coke battle. And it's been going on for years and years and years. But there are some very strong, loyal Coca-Cola drinkers that wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Pepsi, but all of a sudden Pepsi launches the Pepsi Taste Challenge and they do a blind tasting and they get people to decide what is actually their preferred flavour of cola.

00:17:44:08 - 00:17:59:19 Justin And, you know, they ended up going with Pepsi. And that's an example that shows that, you know, a loyal customer can be so strong-minded, so stuck in their way that they're not willing to try anything else. And sometimes we need to force them that there may be better options out there.

00:17:59:21 - 00:18:17:17 Alison And my ultimate test for the Pepsi and Coke challenge is if you're out for dinner with friends and someone asks for a Coke and they say, sorry, we only have Pepsi. How often do they say, well, that's all right. And I have friends who say, no thanks and will completely change to another drink, whereas lots of friends will just say, okay, that's all right.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:21:14 Justin Right. Exactly what, what kind of cola drink are you?

00:18:21:16 - 00:18:24:23 Alison I'm actually not a pop drinker. 

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:31:06 Justin Well, I'm one of those shifting loyals where I will go wherever the availability exists.

00:18:31:08 - 00:18:39:08 Alison But, yeah, when you meet people that are truly in love with either Coke or Pepsi, it's pretty, as marketers, it's pretty motivating to see, too.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:07:02 Justin Well, and that's the golden ticket, right? As a marketer, that's the the end game. That's what we're trying to achieve, is get someone to become so loyal with our brand that they're willing to, you know, abandon everything else for the brand. And, you know, when that happens and we can create that sense of loyalty. We're not only closing a sale, but we're also creating an army of ambassadors or advocates of a brand that will do a lot of our heavy lifting for us.

00:19:07:04 - 00:19:23:10 Justin So we as marketers have an easier job because all these loyals that exist out there are selling the brand, promoting the brand, pushing it to their friends and family at zero cost to us. And that, to me is like the epitome of marketing.

00:19:23:12 - 00:19:31:18 Alison Absolutely. And no matter how good we are as marketers, we will never have the same credibility as a friend recommending something.

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:50:23 Justin Correct. Yeah. It's, it's funny. And that's where I think a lot of brands who've seen success on a lot of social channels like Instagram or TikTok, they've done really well where they don't try and speak to people. They try and engage people in a natural, authentic community dialog.

00:19:51:01 - 00:20:09:23 Alison So I want to switch gears a little bit. You've got a great career, tremendous experience. So I'd love to wrap up our session today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners that are looking to continue to evolve their careers and flourish the same way that you have.

00:20:10:01 - 00:20:42:06 Justin One piece of advice... it would probably be the fact that we need to remember that we're communicating to humans. You know, a lot of this discussion today has been around building an emotional connection. And we as humans want that. We crave that. And we're not always rational people. We are sometimes irrational. And I think sometimes we can forget that because as marketers, we want to measure things and we talk about users or visitors, and it takes us away from the human element.

00:20:42:07 - 00:20:55:02 Justin And I think once we remember that we're talking to humans and we ourselves as humans and we go through life and we make decisions the way we do, it allows us to make decisions that are better for our customers, our consumers.

00:20:55:04 - 00:21:11:15 Alison There's actually some great research that validates what you're talking about from an emotional versus rational decision-making. Most human beings primarily decide based on emotion and then justify the decision through rational reasons. So it's, it's great advice on a bunch of fronts.

00:21:11:17 - 00:21:26:13 Justin It really is important to continue to have this on our forefront as we look to plan all our marketing initiatives, you know, not forgetting how the long term can aid short term results and vice versa. It's a really, really important topic.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:37:17 Alison I absolutely agree, you can't draw down on brand equity if you haven't built it in the first place. So Justin, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I really appreciate you sharing your love of brand love and your experiences with us today.

00:21:37:19 - 00:21:43:06 Justin Thank you. Yeah, really appreciate the chat.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:55:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CMA's CEO, and Dave Burnett, CEO of AOK Marketing, delve into the rise of generative AI and its transformative effect on B2B marketing. The discussion touches on the importance of complying with company guidelines, the rapid advancement of AI tools, and how maintaining a curious mindset is essential for marketers to stay ahead in an ever-evolving industry.

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;20;04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00;00;20;06 - 00;00;45;16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of AI and its transformative impact on B2B marketing. I'm joined today by Dave Burnett, the founder and CEO of AOK Marketing, a conversion-focused digital agency. Dave's also a board member for EO, the entrepreneur's organization. Dave definitely qualifies as an early adopter and thought leader in the AI space. He's been part of OpenAI's beta testing since 2019.

00;00;45;18 - 00;01;14;09 Alison He also teaches two of our CMA Gen AI training courses and brings a wealth of experience and insights to the table today. Throughout, our conversation will follow Dave's personal journey with AI from his days as an early tester with OpenAI to now using AI tools in his everyday work. He'll share the story of his a-ha moment when ChatGPT, a conversational AI tool, dramatically impacted his business and how he chose to embrace the technology and adapt to strategies in response.

00;01;14;11 - 00;01;45;19 Alison As we explore the unique use cases and opportunities for AI in the B2B space, Dave is going to provide some great examples of how companies of different sizes are building AI-powered solutions. We'll also discuss the caution and hesitation often present at the executive level. So for marketers who may be a bit intimidated or reluctant to start experimenting with AI, Dave also offers practical advice on getting started on treating AI models like highly-educated new employees, and helpful tips for how to interact with these tools to get the best results.

00;01;45;22 - 00;01;48;23 Alison Welcome, Dave. I'm thrilled to have you joining me today.

00;01;48;25 - 00;01;53;16 Dave Thanks so much Alison, and I really appreciate the invite. And yeah, I'm excited about our conversation today.

00;01;53;23 - 00;02;05;24 Alison Me too. So let's start by having you walk us through your personal journey from AI, from being an early beta tester with OpenAI to now using Gen AI tools in your everyday work.

00;02;05;26 - 00;02;27;06 Dave So I actually found out about OpenAI a long time ago, back when Elon Musk was founding it. And I thought, hey, this is a really interesting thing. So I signed up to be an early beta tester. And just for clarity, I am not in any way technical. I'm a marketer. I'm not one of those technical marketers, really, who gets deep down into programming.

00;02;27;08 - 00;02;47;19 Dave So this was just something that was an interest of mine back in the day. And so OpenAI came out. I got accepted into the beta program. Obviously they had low bar, a low bar back at that point. And when I got accepted in, it was really exciting for me. And they had already launched a couple of language models, so ChatGPT clawed a bunch of these,

00;02;47;19 - 00;03;08;17 Dave others are all large language models. And when people are talking about AI, they can talk about a and a bunch of different ways. But the most common and prevalent way that people are thinking about it today is as a large language model. So the first language model they came out with was called Ada, Ada. And then the second one they came out was called Babbage.

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;24;09 Dave And the third one that came out with was called Curie. So you'll notice the A, B, C. And then they came out with DaVinci. And as I was going through all these, I mean, they were terrible. You know, they couldn't do anything. You're in there playing around and you know, it just okay, this doesn't do what I want it to do.

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;47;19 Dave And all of a sudden, OpenAI launched ChatGPT, and it was exponentially better than anything else that we've seen in the world. So what I realized in that in that timeline was this is a tool I can use. But the problem was everybody else realized it was a tool they could use, too. And so one of the things that we do as a digital agency is content.

00;03;47;21 - 00;04;09;09 Dave And all of a sudden, so it was released the end of November, ChatGPT. By the end of January, we lost all of our content clients. So we lost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of revenue, because of this tool. So that was my a-ha moment. The less polite word is the holy crap, you know.

00;04;09;10 - 00;04;28;22 Dave Oh my goodness moment. And as a result of that, I had to learn. I had to adapt. So I spent two weeks in February, right after it had been released, three months after it had been ChatGPT had been released just trying to get up fully up to speed because I was, you know, dabbling, I was dipping my toe in.

00;04;28;24 - 00;04;49;10 Dave And then I realized, all right, I'm now caught up. You know, I literally spent two weeks, I'm now caught up. And then in early March, of course, they released, GPT four. So it was a whole other exponential leap forward. But I had a foundation. What I realized is that everybody's on a bit of a journey when it comes to AI.

00;04;49;12 - 00;05;10;25 Dave So the stages of the AI adoption framework are fear, skepticism, holy crap, investigation, adoption and mastery. And everybody kind of goes through those, I've found. If you can see where your people or yourself are on this curve, you know what the next logical step is. And I love talking to the skeptics who are like, it's not that good.

00;05;10;29 - 00;05;24;29 Dave It's not going to get there. I'm like, okay, well, you just haven't had your holy shit moment yet. You know, it's something's going to have to do that for you. And once you do, then we'll have another conversation that'll be a different conversation. So hopefully that helps a little bit with the background of where I got to back then.

00;05;25;04 - 00;05;45;27 Alison It's it's a great story. And there is there's negative moments and there's positive. Wow, I finally figured out why everyone's so excited about this. You obviously had the more negative side and I can't imagine literally overnight a significant portion of your business vanishing. So I definitely want to talk a bit more about that. The other piece that I want to talk about,

00;05;46;04 - 00;06;08;15 Alison so in your journey, you very much were an early adopter. You weren't technical. So that gives all of the marketers listening who don't come from a technical background, comfort that you don't need to be technical. Even in the very early days of the beta testing you were doing with OpenAI. The piece you're not giving yourself credit for that I think is mission critical for everyone's journey is curiosity.

00;06;08;17 - 00;06;33;02 Alison Because if you weren't curious enough and open-minded enough to raise your hand and join the beta in 2019 for something that really none of us knew, understood, and certainly didn't at that point understand the potential of. So I think that's a really important part of the journey, where you're probably being a bit too much of a humble Canadian by not giving yourself the credit for that open-mindedness and curiosity and for everyone listening.

00;06;33;02 - 00;06;43;12 Alison I think those are such important elements, not just for being successful with new tools like Men AI, but for a successful career in marketing.

00;06;43;14 - 00;07;11;19 Dave No, I agree. Curiosity is a massive thing. I've always been curious. I'm always interested in what's new, what's coming, what's next? How can I do this? Because, to completely date myself. I graduated university before Google was invented. So the fact that I now own a digital conversion focused digital marketing agency, that's SEO. And, you know, like everything digital, it required a learning curve.

00;07;11;22 - 00;07;38;16 Dave You know, I mean, I remember Google launching. I remember, you know, when they bought what's now AdWords or Google Ads. I remember all those different things. And so seeing these things and realizing that I have to keep on top of them and doing my best to keep on top of these things is just what you have to do in order to be able to survive, because I don't know what's going to come out next week, next month, next year, and so it's all it's all exciting and to be honest, keeps it interesting.

00;07;38;21 - 00;07;51;09 Alison Absolutely agree. So after you did hit that brick wall that Get AI created in your content business, how did you pivot and where does your business stand now with leveraging Gen AI.

00;07;51;11 - 00;08;12;11 Dave So I use it every day. And so it's a tool. I look at it as say for example, you were a you were an author or writer. You would have Word open or Google Docs. Whatever you use as a marketer, you might have Canva open or Illustrator or whatever you might use if you're a on the design side or Figma or whatever tool that it is that you use in your, in your work.

00;08;12;13 - 00;08;43;23 Dave And so I've incorporated it into my work and it's just made me, me personally, exponentially more efficient. I can do the same amount of work in an hour that I used to do in an entire day, maybe multiple days. You know, a lot of my work, it tends to be on the, strategy side. It tends to be on the, you know, proposals and talking to people and understanding and taking giant amounts of information and condensing them down into information that people can understand.

00;08;43;23 - 00;09;12;19 Dave Because parts of SEO, parts of Google Ads, parts of conversion rate optimization can be very technical. It's really being able to say, look, you know, if you for content generation, for example, do stuff and then talk about the great stuff you've done, that's one element of it. But where AI comes into it is AI is great for doing foundational content, baseline content, you know, for example, in a promotional products business, what is embroidery?

00;09;12;23 - 00;09;34;28 Dave What is screen printing? You know, what is a t shirt made of? Like all those every business has its foundational content that you need. So how I'm using it today, I mentioned that I've got multiple tabs open, but it also is great for, you know, consolidating all those things and getting getting a good read on what's going on with those.

00;09;35;01 - 00;09;59;07 Dave So just to put it in a better example, if, for example, a news piece comes out around Google and for example, Google had an algorithm leak and their algorithm leak was highly technical, it was literally the way you could program into Google how how the search engine works. So I took that information. Not being a technical guy took all that information.

00;09;59;07 - 00;10;23;28 Dave I knew enough how to create a text document from it, put that into Google. And, you know, and I tried to figure out what it was, didn't know. So I then took that text document and put it into ChatGPT and said, what does this mean from an SEO perspective? And it spit out these five things. You know, technically you need to do this, local SEO, you need to do this, like all these different metrics and all these different instructions.

00;10;24;04 - 00;10;43;22 Dave And then I was able to dig down and dig down and dig down and then take that and actually apply it in my business and apply it for our clients. So it really is a great tool to be able to take massive amounts of information and make it, you know, dumb it down for me, just quite honestly. So yeah, it's a fun way to use it.

00;10;43;22 - 00;11;07;28 Alison We talk so much around the creative uses of ChatGPT, and certainly it's a tool that way as well. But you broadened it to a more, it's also very powerful from a strategic perspective, from a planning perspective in running a business. It's also an incredible efficiency play. So beyond the marketing capabilities and ways that ChatGPT can enable us in running a business and in managing a team, it can also be incredibly powerful.

00;11;07;28 - 00;11;11;08 Alison So I appreciate you sharing some of those examples for sure.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;28;28 Dave Yeah. And it's one of those things where you have a choice to make once you start to use these tools, you know, ChatGPT being primary and one of them, you are going to get so much more efficient. You're gonna have a choice, you know, do I spend my time doing eight times more stuff? You know, if I can do in one hour what used to take me eight hours?

00;11;29;00 - 00;11;43;27 Dave Or do I do one hour's worth of work and go to Myrtle Beach or something? You know, I, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, you know, so it's it's really a choice you're going to have to make. And I think those people who embrace this as something that says, okay, this is a this is kind of jet fuel.

00;11;44;00 - 00;12;02;06 Dave I can go from, you know, just a biplane or, you know, a paper airplane to being on a jet. And this is how fast I can move. This is how much information I can do. This is how, how, how, how, how I can outcompete. It's really a tool that you should use, for sure.

00;12;02;08 - 00;12;16;18 Alison Now, Dave, in the B2B space, I'd love you to share some unique use cases and opportunities that you're seeing for leveraging Gen AI, and also to share if it varies, based on the company size or the industry that, the brands and marketers are part of.

00;12;16;21 - 00;12;41;27 Dave Absolutely. I mean, it all depends. So starting at the enterprise level, there are often rules that individuals have that they have to adhere to. You know, I know in some organizations you can't access anything on your local server or from your, your intranet or from your IP address that ends in dot AI. There are a lot of considerations you have to take into account the security side of things.

00;12;41;27 - 00;12;59;07 Dave You have to take into account what data you're putting into, and you know how you can adopt. So as a as a marketer who's looking to early adopter, you know, adopt these types of things, you are going to have to figure out what works for your organization. That's first and foremost, because you do not want to compromise any data.

00;12;59;07 - 00;13;15;10 Dave You do not want to compromise any information. You want to make sure that you are following the rules that are set, and the rules are there for a reason. Now, if you're in a small or medium sized business, well, it's kind of the wild, wild West, right? You can just go for it and do whatever you want. So ignore everything I just said.

00;13;15;10 - 00;13;35;21 Dave No, I'm just kidding. You still need to adhere to those things. So from a small to medium size, what I'm finding is people are tend to be plugging in to some of these public models. So they're, they're paying for paid subscriptions or they're doing things where they kind of have their own information. And then you know, separating it out.

00;13;35;21 - 00;13;58;17 Dave So they've got their own information, but are kind of reaching out to these public models to then, you know, power it basically. So they're trying to create these walled gardens that aren't quite as walled off, I don't know, chain link fence instead of walls? So as a result of that they they're able to use the, as the models get better and better and they're able to have their own data referencing.

00;13;58;20 - 00;14;27;09 Dave So and then the small businesses, I mean, they're just they're just accessing, giving stuff away and doing all that kind of stuff. So when I say giving stuff away, what I mean is a lot of these models are trained off of your data. So if you upload a client proposal into ChatGPT without putting any of the safeties on or anything like that, technically that information becomes part of the training model for ChatGPT to train others so other people could utilize that.

00;14;27;09 - 00;14;57;00 Dave And I, I mean, do you have a lot to worry about? Probably not, if you're, but I you got to be careful. Talk to your lawyer. I just, you know I know this is going to go a broadcast if you're going to share any information, but at the same time, you know, you can, just understand that if you make the data anonymous and just take out the client's name and just be - a digital marketing agency is creating a proposal for a landscaping company.

00;14;57;02 - 00;15;22;00 Dave And this landscaping company is, you know, needs X, Y, and Z, zed, x, y, and zed things. And, you know, it's just it's really something that's that you can use. Just don't be so specific. So I'm seeing people use these really varies based on their organization size and then what they're trying to do with it. I mean, I've been in meetings where people are still head in the sand.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;40;11 Dave This is really something that I'm very afraid of. You know, they're on that that spectrum in terms of the, the framework. And I think they're, we're all going to potentially move forward through the framework. But, you know, depending on where they are and who they work for, I, I'm seeing a lot of different things with how they're using it.

00;15;40;13 - 00;16;04;19 Alison And if, if they're in a highly regulated industry or as you call it, a large organization where there are those limitations, and I would still encourage marketers to start experimenting with Gen AI in their personal life, on their personal computers, because it's not going to get easier to to learn. It's not going to get any less intimidating. So the longer that they're waiting, the harder it will be to catch up.

00;16;04;19 - 00;16;15;17 Alison And it's also a missed opportunity, like when you call out that you can now in an hour, do something, enough work that formerly took you a day, like, we all want to benefit from that as well.

00;16;15;19 - 00;16;50;00 Dave Absolutely. And I think it's it's really important to for people to experiment, as you were saying, no matter what organization size that they're in, because the more you play with these tools, the the better you'll get. So from my perspective, it makes the most sense to think about these AI tools as a newly-graduated, newly-minted MBA student who is highly, highly knowledgeable, super, super highly knowledgeable, and yet they know nothing about you and they know nothing about what you want from them.

00;16;50;00 - 00;17;14;04 Dave So just like a new hire, new employee, you know, they're excited. Well, I mean, the machine's not necessarily excited, but they're excited to to learn and to do and to give you the right answer. But they need to know some context. So it's really important to start off with, all right, when you're when you're entering any information into this and we'll just focus on the large language models like ChatGPT.

00;17;14;07 - 00;17;41;03 Dave Just, you know, you are a, or whatever you want that particular model to be. So for example, you are a proposal writer and and then that frames the the rest of the input and what you're going to give instructions as that. So depending on how you're using the tool you really got to frame it first. So you are a, and then tell it what it is and then go and say, okay, here's some research, here's some information.

00;17;41;05 - 00;18;01;29 Dave And if you really want to kind of go next-level with it, you can say, here is the type of an answer that I really like. Write me an answer like that. So for example, if you were using it to write a resume, I don't know, say you wanted to switch jobs, you could put an ad, you can upload a resume and say like, here's all, here's all my LinkedIn profile, here's all the information for my LinkedIn.

00;18;01;29 - 00;18;23;24 Dave Here's all the amazing stuff I've done. Here's the people have referred me,  here are the people of, you know, endorsed me, whatever. Here's all the articles I've written. Here is a resume. Take all this information and write a resume about me. And by the way, you also should put in, and do not make anything up, because that helps limit the creativity of the model.

00;18;23;27 - 00;18;48;20 Dave So sometimes we touch briefly on it, but it does hallucinate. And so hallucination I view as creativity. So it gets creative sometimes, a little too much. So you just do not make anything up. And then of course once it see it, it produces, it writes you that resume, double check it. Because any of these tools are only going to get you 80% of the way there.

00;18;48;22 - 00;19;08;23 Dave That's the other key thing that I think people miss is they just take what they got, put it into an email, or put it into a proposal or put it into something else. The tool will only get you 80% of the way there. And just like an intern really, or no, or a new hire, they are going to do some great work with how they're trained, but they're not going to get it exactly as you want.

00;19;08;23 - 00;19;24;27 Dave It may not be in your voice, your tone, whatever it may be, and then you need to go in there, actually read it, actually take a look at it, correct it, and then use it if you're going to use it. But it will get you it will get you 80 or 90% of the way there pretty much every time.

00;19;24;27 - 00;19;25;20 Dave So yeah.

00;19;25;20 - 00;19;50;03 Alison Such great advice. And I really love your intern and new employee analogy. Because by investing a bit more time upfront, by helping coach them and support them along the way, they do get better and the outputs become even more valuable. And that is so true of ChatGPT. And if you have people that are listening that are a little skeptical or intimidated or don't want to try it in their first experiences, they try and say, well, this is crap.

00;19;50;06 - 00;20;01;18 Alison It's easy to then say, so I don't need to bother, instead of saying, I'm part of the reason, that's crap. This is part of the learning I need to go through to really get the value and the benefit out of the tool and to really understand it.

00;20;01;21 - 00;20;23;08 Dave Yeah, it's it's it's important. And I think, you know, there's references for example, if you're like, how big is New York? Right. What are you, what are you really asking? Are you looking for how big is it in square kilometres? Are you looking for how many people live in New York City proper, or are you looking for, you know, any any of these other things?

00;20;23;11 - 00;20;42;11 Dave You need to be very specific. So if you said how many people live in the greater New York City area, and then you could refine that to, you know, how many people live in Manhattan and then double check those answers because it might have made it up. So use Google as well to kind of reference things.

00;20;42;11 - 00;20;55;06 Dave And, and you know, more and more AI is coming into the search engine world, but, yeah, you definitely want to double check and fact check, whatever it is that you find just using that example.

00;20;55;08 - 00;21;01;11 Alison That's a great example. And adding the simple caveat "and don't make anything up" to your promise is incredibly powerful.

00;21;01;14 - 00;21;34;23 Dave Yeah. Well it's still makes stuff up though. That's like, it's it kind of follows instructions but not 100%. And you can also do things like, forget everything previously input or forget everything above. So you can do those types of things as well. And those tend to help, you know, kind of reset. But I always just start another chat and then I'll just start another chat just so I can I can kind of reset based on things, because in my experience, they the tools themselves tend to go off track after a while.

00;21;34;25 - 00;21;52;28 Dave And so you kind of need to reset and you'll start to notice, be like, that quality of that answer wasn't as good as it was a while back, so you can actually copy a chunk of answers you liked, put it in a new chat, and that seems to work well. But again, it'll just come with playing, playing with these tools.

00;21;52;28 - 00;22;14;06 Dave But there are other tools for marketers out there. I mean, there are tools that will write you songs, you know, from, from start to finish. There are tools that will develop creative content for you in terms of your your imagery. There's tools that will do a whole bunch of different things for you. So there are videos, there's amazing different things out there that you can do.

00;22;14;09 - 00;22;34;23 Alison Absolutely. And I love that. One of the CMA training sessions that you do for us, I love how you make it very relevant to the learners that attend, and have them leverage all of the different tools to actually write a marketing plan. So putting it into practice in a way that any marketer can understand and benefit from, it's a really great, teaching technique that you have.

00;22;34;23 - 00;22;36;03 Alison So thank you for that too.

00;22;36;05 - 00;22;43;29 Dave I'm happy to share for sure. What might be fun is to create a song, you know, because this is a podcast.

00;22;44;03 - 00;22;48;23 Alison I love it. We're going to create a CMA Connect podcast theme song on the spot.

00;22;48;25 - 00;23;11;22 Dave Okay. So this is Suno, this is a fun tool. This is something that, I'm not sure how many of the listeners would have, will have explored before and basically what this is, is a library of created songs and it's it's amazing. So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to hit create. What type of music do you want the theme song to be?

00;23;11;24 - 00;23;22;06 Alison It definitely needs to be energetic. It needs to be, feel more future-focused, trying to think of specific genres that would deliver on that.

00;23;22;08 - 00;23;45;04 Dave I mean, we could start off with a pop song. What do you think about doing a pop song? Sure. An energetic pop song about the CMA podcasts. We have two different pop songs here. So we have Tune into the CMA, Tune into CMA. So I'll start with this one first.

00;23;45;06 - 00;23;57;07 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat.

00;23;57;09 - 00;24;20;07 Dave So that's that's the first one. So the interesting thing is what it does is it writes the copy, the words of the song and then creates different beats. So I'm going to play the second one now and it's got the exact same lyrics, but it'll be a little bit different.

00;24;20;09 - 00;24;35;18 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat. Laughs and tears all day long. Conversations where we belong. Grab your headphones, come along...

00;24;35;18 - 00;24;37;08 Alison So which one do you prefer?

00;24;38;22 - 00;24;40;29 Dave I like this one better, to be honest.

00;24;41;01 - 00;24;54;07 Alison Right now the lyrics are fairly generic and given the prompt we've served it, that makes perfect sense. If we were to elaborate more on what we were asking for, am I right in assuming that the lyrics will become more relevant and stronger as well?

00;24;54;10 - 00;25;01;01 Dave Absolutely. The better you prompt, the better and more relevant it'll be. So here's gritty, intense, hard rap.

00;25;01;04 - 00;25;14;19 AI Song Tune in, CMA dropping' bombs on the regular. Facts so sharp, sharper than the predator. Mic in hand, splitting' truth like a prophet. Expose the lies, real talk, no profit...

Alison I kinda like this one too.

00;25;14;21 - 00;25;26;13 Dave When you think about it from a marketer's perspective, how many hours would this have taken? How many, how much investment in time, effort, people? It's just, it would be crazy.

00;25;26;15 - 00;25;36;02 Alison So we're just getting started, right? When you think about how much the tools have evolved, how many new tools have emerged on the scene, and it's changing daily?

00;25;36;05 - 00;25;51;20 Dave Absolutely. It's it's, and it's not just like we talk about the large language models because that's what everybody tends to focus on. But there are all these other tools that are just absolutely mind blowing. So yeah, it's it's a fun journey to be on like, this is this is exciting and fun.

00;25;51;22 - 00;26;01;29 Alison So as marketers are embracing Gen AI, what skills are becoming more critical and what should marketers keep in mind as they're navigating this rapidly evolving landscape?

00;26;02;02 - 00;26;24;01 Dave Well, you know, really, as much as we were talking about these tools, people are still important. You know, people matter. You still have to have the soft skills to be able to communicate with people and understand. So all those fundamentals that you learned aren't going away, but marketers who use it are going to have a significant advantage to those who don't.

00;26;24;01 - 00;26;44;22 Dave And so, for example, if you said to me, you know what Dave, come up with a creative concept for, for, you know, an ad for the CMA podcast, and I could come up with a complete marketing plan, a complete copywriting. I could write you your landing pages, your copy for all of your, communications, your Twitter, or your X posts, or your LinkedIn posts.

00;26;44;29 - 00;27;05;22 Dave I could generate images for it. I could create a song for it, and I could do all that, probably before lunch. If you're going up against me, you've got to be skilled in this, right? And I am by no means the best at this. I am a learning person who is just trying to use this as much as possible, but you got to know what's there to be able to do it.

00;27;05;22 - 00;27;31;02 Dave So it's it's important for you to, to use these tools and, and be open and curious and be willing to fail. You know, you need to really, you need to to really not get great results and then accept the fact that, okay, that result was bad, but it wasn't because of the machine, it was because I'm not good enough yet at prompting the machine, at entering the information, at giving the resources.

00;27;31;04 - 00;28;00;09 Dave So I always look at it as, how can I get better? Because what I found is, in my experience, the better I get, amazingly, the better the machine seems to get. You know, it's just it's just it's amazing how how advanced it gets, you know, so you can use these tools to help you prepare for meetings. So for example, if you download a transcript of this podcast, you could then say, okay, give me the summary points that Dave said I should watch out about security concerns.

00;28;00;16 - 00;28;26;20 Dave What are enterprise companies doing about those security concerns? How can I, as a small, medium-sized business marketer use these tools? And what should I tell my CEO or CMO, CTO or whatever? What should I tell the C-suite about this tool? And how can I then persuade them to use these tools. So you can even like brainstorm. You can you can just bounce ideas off this off the machine.

00;28;26;22 - 00;28;48;25 Dave And it's really interesting to see the results that you can get. And, you know, I mean, like any intern, they'll have great ideas. And you'll use 1 or 2 of them, but you'll still get two more ideas than you didn't have before. So it's it's really, really important. So you, as you said earlier, being curious, it's 90% of the battle in this case.

00;28;48;25 - 00;28;56;18 Dave So and then, don't just know about it, do it. Actually use the tools. That's that's the most important thing.

00;28;56;23 - 00;29;19;12 Alison Well they also highlighted, and a willingness to fail. Like this is not going to be perfect. This is not going to be like inserted into no matter how good your prompts are, make the request and then just serve up the finished product. It still does need human engagement. It needs human review. Humans will make any output from the tools even stronger, and you have to be willing to fail.

00;29;19;15 - 00;29;38;11 Dave Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And if you're yeah. If you're not, if you're not at the highest level of your profession, if you're a junior marketer or something, you can you can use this to up up-skill, to do what the people above are doing. Ask, you know, ask the people above you for feedback on whatever you're giving. And then take that feedback.

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;59;04 Dave Incorporate it into whatever you're doing, your workflow, your processes. Because I've found AI works really well, like it's a machine. So the more structured data like, like lists you can put in, the more information that kind of has a hierarchy like, you know, headings, subheadings, all that kind of stuff, it will react well to things that are well-structured.

00;29;59;06 - 00;30;17;16 Dave If you're just kind of, write me a pirate shanty, then it comes up with all kinds of stuff, right? But if you were like, okay, write it. And you know, with these, this many verses with this type of information about these things, make sure you hit on this, this and this. It just gets better and better. People aren't going away.

00;30;17;16 - 00;30;27;24 Dave This is just going to make people better, smarter, faster, more skilled. And you know, it's, you go from riding a tricycle to driving a Ferrari. It's, you go a lot faster.

00;30;27;28 - 00;30;53;00 Alison Absolutely. So, Dave, this has been a wonderful conversation. You've given us such great advice and very practical ways that we can start engaging with the tools if we're already engaging, which I hope most of our listeners are, how to build on the early learning that we each have. Now, separate from Gen AI, you have a amazing career. You've built businesses, you've been entrepreneurial.

00;30;53;03 - 00;31;05;29 Alison So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are looking to stay ahead in their careers and what they need to do to continue to evolve with the industry.

00;31;06;01 - 00;31;30;23 Dave So the biggest learning I've had, in that side of things, has really come down to how I approach things. And really it's kind of a framework that I've taken to adopt, which is, you know, that doesn't work for me, changed to how do I. So let me give you an example. Twitter, X, is a tool that I never really understood.

00;31;31;00 - 00;31;52;01 Dave You know, it's the noise problem. There's so much stuff there. It's all about politics whatever. And so my thought was, it doesn't work for me. It's not going to ever work for me. Instead, I had to change my mind to how do I use this tool to accomplish what I want? So I went in, I deleted everybody I was following, and I just, so this is a kind of a dual purpose.

00;31;52;01 - 00;32;13;03 Dave I just started following people who are the thought leaders in AI. So Twitter is, now my feed is now all the latest developments in AI, all the amazing things that are happening, changing it to a "how do I". Because whenever I start to think that way, I realize that the problem's with me, not necessarily the platform, not necessarily the tool.

00;32;13;06 - 00;32;22;16 Dave So how do I learn how to do this thing better? And and then that's just really the best piece of advice I can give. So hopefully that's helpful.

00;32;22;16 - 00;32;26;26 Alison I love that reframing. It's great professional advice. It's also great personal advice. Thank you.

00;32;26;26 - 00;32;38;26 Dave Absolutely. No, you're welcome. Thank you very much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. And it's it's been really you know, I'm grateful for everything the CMA does. You guys are amazing. So I'm happy to be able to contribute a little bit.

00;32;38;29 - 00;32;51;17 Alison You're  one of our many amazing members. And I really appreciate all that you give back to the community as well, because we're only as strong as the the level of engaged members that we have. And you definitely are high on that list. So, Dave, thank you for everything.

00;32;51;19 - 00;32;57;12 Dave Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

00;32;57;14 - 00;33;10;02 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with two members of the CMA's Not-For-Profit Council, Allen Davidov, Senior Vice President, Sales Practice & Marketing Leader, Environics Analytics and Kelly Hardy, Vice President, Marketing & Communications, YMCA Canada. They explore the unique opportunities and challenges of leveraging AI in non-profit marketing, discuss strategies for preparing for the AI-driven future, and share valuable advice for marketers looking to embrace this transformative technology.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, KMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:46:01 Alison  In today's episode, we're diving into the world of charities and not for profit organizations to discuss how they can leverage the transformative potential of generative AI as the marketing landscape continues to rapidly evolve. Charities and not for profits, can often find themselves facing some pretty unique challenges when it comes to adopting cutting edge technologies like Gen I. With limited resources and a focus on mission driven work.

00:00:46:03 - 00:01:08:07 Alison  How can these organizations harness the power of AI to amplify their impact and drive success? To help us navigate this meaty topic, I'm joined by two members of the CMAs not for profit council, Kelly Harding, as the vice president, marketing communications for YMCA Canada, and Allen Davidoff as senior vice president, sales practice and marketing leader, and Varonis analytics.

00:01:08:09 - 00:01:40:14 Alison  Both Kelly and Allen bring deep marketing and leadership expertise. They've also held senior roles in nonprofits, and their first hand experience makes them perfectly suited to discuss how charities and not for profits can explore and implement new technologies like not. They'll share some of the ways they're doing this, along with some valuable lessons learned throughout our conversation. Today, we'll explore the various ways in which Gen AI can help nonprofits scale their marketing efforts everything from automating mundane tasks to enhancing content creation and volunteer work.

00:01:40:16 - 00:01:51:16 Alison  We'll also discuss the importance of upskilling teams, developing AI policies, and addressing concerns around authenticity and transparency. Welcome, Kelly and Allen. It's really great to have you both here today.

00:01:51:18 - 00:01:52:21 Allen Thank you for having me.

00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:21 Kelly Thank you.

00:01:53:23 - 00:02:13:14 Alison  Now, I'd like to kick things off with the question. And, Kelly, I'll get you to take the lead on this one. As marketers with experience and not for profits. What role do you see Gen AI playing now? What have been your early experiences in leveraging it? I'd also like to hear what advice you would give to those who might be a little bit reluctant to start using AI.

00:02:13:16 - 00:02:45:14 Kelly So I think the generative AI is going to have a monumental shift on the marketing and communications function in an organization, as well as us as marketers ourselves. Just how quickly this technology has developed and what it's capable of now. I think particularly in charities and nonprofits, you're really going to be able to extend the capacity of your teams in a way that our resources probably would never allow us to, unless you have expertise right at your fingertips.

00:02:45:16 - 00:03:05:16 Kelly It can be a copywriter. It can be a brainstorm or a planner. It can fulfill almost or many of the roles that a creative agency might have just to get you started. It's not at the point where it's replacing any human jobs right now, but it's really going to, I think, enhance and be a companion to us as marketers.

00:03:05:18 - 00:03:30:13 Kelly As you start to dive into the world because it's new and it's also you're adding your information into these large language models is really important to understand your organizational policies around the use of AI and protecting your private, confidential, proprietary business information. I like to use AI, as I said, as my editor. So sometimes my sentence structure clarity isn't there.

00:03:30:14 - 00:04:07:03 Kelly So I still write stuff. Well, say can you just review this for grammar, clarity, sentence structure or make this shorter? I hadn't done anything in generative AI before December, and then I took a course through the Canadian Marketing Association that was led by Karla Congson. That really demystified what generative AI is about. So I think that as many of us are going to be at the early stages of AI, I'd encourage a great place to start is just take a course that helps you understand what it is, the role of it, the limitations, the cautions and the Canadian Marketing Association offer some great courses on that as well.

00:04:07:03 - 00:04:36:14 Kelly So ones like AI for nonprofits and Hands on Efficiency and Impact training, that's led by Emily Baillie, and that's suited for nonprofit professionals of all levels of experience who are looking to expand their skill set and gain insight into how I can be used in nonprofit marketing. Karla, who I mentioned is the CEO and founder of Open Gravity, has been a great resource for me, and she worked with the CMA, available On Demand ten video based module on generative AI for marketers.

00:04:36:14 - 00:04:57:00 Kelly So that's a really great course because it's not just about generative AI, but how you can leverage it in your role as a marketer. They also have AI and the Future of Work in marketing and executive overview, which is also led by Karla. And that's tailored more for executive marketers to really understand the complexities and opportunities for AI driven marketing.

00:04:57:02 - 00:05:19:02 Kelly And you can also engage with Unlock the Power of AI and how I can make you a better marketer. That's left by Dave Burnett and that's tailored for marketing for practitioners with 2 to 5 years of experience looking to expand their skill set and embrace the future of AI enhanced marketing. So I think really the key message is this is going to be a skill upgrade that all of us is going to have to make.

00:05:19:04 - 00:05:31:18 Kelly whether or not you like the idea of AI is going to become part of what we do now. If you haven't sort learned the time is now and the CMA offers great resources to do that.

00:05:31:20 - 00:05:51:12 Alison  Kelly, thanks so much. It's really great for me to hear that the training through the CMA that you took was a key part of your journey, and I really appreciate the shadow. I also know that our listeners are going to definitely find a compelling the idea of gen AI helping you scale you and your team so you can be even more productive and manage very complex and workloads.

00:05:51:12 - 00:06:00:03 Alison  And the ability to multitask with fewer hours in a week is going to be a compelling benefit for all of us. And I'd love to turn it over to you to answer the question as well.

00:06:00:05 - 00:06:25:06 Allen Thank you. And when I look at I just see it as a marketer, I see that as another tool in my toolbox. So looking at from from what my organization is trying to do or trying to achieve, it's looking at what are the different tools at my disposal. And we live in this great age where we have so much rich data and great technology that allows us to actually do things on our own, sometimes without overspending in a lot of different areas.

00:06:25:06 - 00:06:58:08 Allen I kind of look at it as an opportunity to look at the goals that my team has and what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's a campaign, whether it's creative, whether it's summarizing things, putting out more content and seeing where it can kind of help. So I know Kelly spoke to some of the mundane tasks, but looking at and evaluating your own campaigns and looking at the different videos you've put together, there's great uses of AI just to summarize things for you, to help you just bring things down and allow you to really expedite some tasks really quickly to get things moving.

00:06:58:10 - 00:07:23:04 Allen So I see there's great uses of it. No differently than, you know, obviously shameless plug from the data analytics side. It's a great tool on my toolbox that any marketer can have. And look at how you build your own personas and connect with them. AI in the same fashion gives you opportunities to look at how do you upskill and how do you also extend sort of the use or expansion of your team and the volunteers that you use?

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:43:15 Allen So I think AI's definitely an opportunity, but I would ask everyone to kind of start, I think Kelly spoke about some great CMA courses and great resources, but just look at it from the perspective of what am I trying to accomplish? And what can I help me? So getting started and kind of dig into some of that is kind of starting from that standpoint.

00:07:43:17 - 00:08:07:08 Alison  For anyone that is worried about AI replacing their jobs, it's certainly not going to do that. And when we were talking earlier, we all talked about it's not about gen AI replacing our jobs. It's about marketers who are digging in and experimenting and learning and getting upskilled in joining AI that ultimately will replace our jobs. If we decide to, that we can opt out of this new technology.

00:08:07:13 - 00:08:25:16 Alison  And you've both given so many benefits of why we should be open to experimenting and exploring, and that can really help remove some of the mundane tasks that are part of anyone's job, make us more scalable and also help stress test some of our thinking and play the important role of editors. So really great examples to kick off the session.

00:08:25:18 - 00:08:42:06 Alison  Now, with the not for profit and charitable experience that you both bring to the table, I'd love to hear a bit about the unique opportunities that you see for not for profits and charities to leverage. Gen. AI, particularly when they often have smaller budgets and smaller teams.

00:08:42:08 - 00:09:03:09 Kelly I think that, as we've discussed, AI can be a series of AI powered expertise and experts at your fingertips. So and I think a lot of times, and especially charities where you have limited resources, you don't have all the people in your team that, you know, bigger corporations may have. And I think even bigger corporations never have all the skills and expertise they want.

00:09:03:11 - 00:09:28:10 Kelly So generative AI is going to give us opportunities to bring those skills in-house, at a cost that would never be attainable if you actually had to hire each of those or outsource consultants to help you with that. I think that what you'll have to do is figure out what type of expertise you want and how to work with, you know, the AI model that you're going to work with to leverage that properly.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:52:10 Kelly But right now it can help with copywriting. It can help with data analysis. So if, you know, sometimes we'll just do surveys to try to understand how people are thinking about things or reacting to things. The quickness, which means they can analyze verbatim comments. And we know how expensive quality surveys can be because of that human effort required to analyze the verbatim comments.

00:09:52:10 - 00:10:11:22 Kelly Well, now that's accessible to most of us to be able to do that. So I think that's what's really exciting is not about especially at the YMCA right now. It's not about replacing their jobs, but helping us. And it's not about making us work. Longer hours is about making better use of the hours that we have and just listening to expertise.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:14:22 Kelly We need to have access to before.

00:10:15:00 - 00:10:22:06 Alison  Making better use of the hours we have, is such a great way to sum it up. Kelly, thank you so much. Now I'll I'd love you to share your thoughts.

00:10:22:08 - 00:10:46:11 Allen Yeah. So I think added to what sort of Kelly has said there's an opportunity to upskill yourself. And I know this has been mentioned in terms of what does my team need to sort of farm and what's the best plan to get them there, and where do they get the resources? So using AI as a search and a planning tool is a great resource for a lot of charities, especially medium and small ones that don't have a lot of opportunities.

00:10:46:13 - 00:11:13:19 Allen Or this, the background in terms of H.R. And why not? So just looking at what are the new marketing skills that are out there, can I help you search those function like those skill sets, and put a plan together to prompt you to go and read this article or, you know, register for this class. So there's a great opportunity to use it as a development tool for a lot of different marketing teams on not for profits as well as, you know, summarizing and using it as a creative resource.

00:11:13:19 - 00:11:34:08 Allen So if you have some ideas and I know we all, you know, get behind a whiteboard and throw ideas together and brainstorm with our team. So it's another opportunity to use the tool to say, you know, here's some ideas. Put them all together, search what's out there, and then come back with, you know, more refined ideas that you then as a team can take a little bit further.

00:11:34:10 - 00:11:52:10 Allen So again, it's a great searching tool. And a great development tool that a lot of groups, a lot of marketing teams can utilize. And I've seen it done and we are using it on Environics in terms of from those standpoints as well, it can keep you on task and it can really help you search for different things that you're looking for and put it all together.

00:11:52:12 - 00:12:19:14 Alison  That's great. Now you both have given our listeners lots of reasons to want to experiment and try. And for those that have already embraced gen AI to continue their learning and experimentation, we all know that not for profits typically are not early adopters of new technologies. So for our listeners that are coming from the charitable and not for profit space, what would you recommend they do to prepare for the significant changes that gen AI is bringing?

00:12:19:20 - 00:12:22:11 Alison  And I want to why don't you kick off this answer?

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:23 Allen I would say that a lot of that are in the not for profit space, are not too far behind. there was a recent stats can report that came out that said 1 in 10 companies in Canada, corporate companies or all companies in Canada intend to actually implement AI in this next year. And in terms of Canada and the global sort of environment, where 29th out of 31 that's sort of implemented currently.

00:12:48:01 - 00:13:05:19 Allen So the not for profit space, I would say, is not too far behind. Everybody's trying to get a sense of what is it, how can it be used, and how could this benefit my organization? How can this benefit me as a marketer in my team? So what I would say is there's it's never too late to jump in.

00:13:05:20 - 00:13:23:19 Allen I think it's great to spend some time and find some time, as we all do, as as marketing leaders, to kind of see what's out there and talk to people and look at use cases and again, bring it back to what my team or my organization trying to achieve. And how could this help benefit us and expedite things?

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:44:10 Allen So from mundane tasks all the way to upskilling, I think not for profits, there are different use cases that they can kind of fitted into, but it's never too late to try anything, right? Just like when I think about social media and, and when that came on board, a lot of people were trying it and some people were more hesitant and eventually got on board.

00:13:44:10 - 00:14:05:02 Allen But it was never too late. It's just a matter of what's the right fit for your organization and what's the right use case for your organization. And also from a policy perspective, like being more aware of things that are important from privacy and whatnot. So, I think it's never too late, I guess. And at the same time, it's just you got to jump in to try.

00:14:05:02 - 00:14:07:14 Allen You got to play and figure it out.

00:14:07:16 - 00:14:22:23 Alison  And thinking of it more as play instead of this overwhelming, intimidating new thing is a great mindset to bring into it as well. Now, Kelly, being in the not for profit space with your current role would be great to hear what else you would add to Alan's great advice.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:45:17 Kelly Yes, and I think as charities, we often don't have the resources to take risks in the early stages of technology where we know there is that refinement. And, you know, the version one of something, if you look at, you know, ChatGPT when it was released, not that there's a lot of different between how it was implemented, but some of the technologies, we just can't use our resources to take risks on them.

00:14:45:19 - 00:15:04:09 Kelly With AI, we know that we're going to be adopting it don't always be expert as any time new technology comes. So if you look at the evolution of digital marketing, we don't need to have experts, in-house SEO experts, digital marketing, meta experts. We don't need to have them in-house because we know that there will be experts there to help us.

00:15:04:09 - 00:15:26:09 Kelly So I always want to ease everybody's mind to know the experts and people who do this for a living. We'll be able to help us understand the use cases for our charities and nonprofits, and who knows where this is going to go in the future, because we're at a certain place in time right now. But maybe our service delivery is going to be able to be delivered by AI in the future.

00:15:26:09 - 00:15:54:00 Kelly We're not there yet, but I think one of the things that charities and nonprofits should be thinking of in the adoption of this technology is understanding where it's going, and it's really hard to keep on top of it sometimes because things change so fast. So one thing we've done at YMCA Canada, because there are risks and there's a lot of sometimes what's going to happen when these AI's, if they ever get that independent general intelligence where they can actually make decisions independently of humans.

00:15:54:00 - 00:16:24:17 Kelly And that's scary scenario. We are nowhere near that right now, but understanding the potential pitfalls of that technology. So sometimes if you don't have that expertise in-house, that might be a skill you look to add to your board of directors. We've also encouraged learning of our staff to keep up with this. So we actually at Y Canada had a book club where we read a book called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he really outlines and it's not going to be necessary.

00:16:24:18 - 00:16:49:04 Kelly It's a technical book that's not necessarily about charities and nonprofits, but just more on the state of AI and the threats to the world and how you can mitigate them. So having discussions around things like that, how are those threats and risks applicable to your organizations? Do you have policies? These policies, whatever you put in place today, you probably going to have to rethink it six months from now as the technology and new capabilities become available.

00:16:49:08 - 00:17:09:07 Kelly So I think that's one thing, is just learning about the risks and uses of it. You don't necessarily have to be doing them, but having that general sense of the impact AI is going to have on your organization, and if you don't have that capacity in-house right now, there's people out there that can help us with that.

00:17:09:09 - 00:17:26:07 Alison  Kelly, thanks so much. That's great value to our listeners with all of the great resources. And I love the book club idea as well. Now, Alan, do you have any additional advice for any marketers who might be listening today? And they're still a little bit overwhelmed or panicked or just unsure of where to begin exploring gen AI?

00:17:26:08 - 00:17:51:13 Allen Right. So I think Kelly's given some great advice and some great resources. But just as an executive, I think as a marketing leader, you kind of just have to jump right in and start playing and understanding the tool. I e we have a committee that actually put together that kind of looks at different use cases and talks to the organization and comes to different town halls with ideas and showcases it and allows the teams then to kind of take it away and kind of play with it a little bit.

00:17:51:15 - 00:18:20:19 Allen So I think we all kind of have to jump right in and and try it out and see what the limitations are and, and see how it could fit for your organization. And I think without doing that yourself, it's hard for you to direct your team to actually different use cases as well. So I think as leaders, it's upon us to try these things, to read up on them and get familiar with them in order to kind of help drive that through an organization or your own team.

00:18:20:21 - 00:18:40:05 Allen So I think the easiest thing is dive right in, test it yourself, see how it works, try it for use case. If you know you join a podcast like we have today and just get the show notes and see how we could summarize it for you. So simple. Something simple as a task like that can start to showcase what are those opportunities for you?

00:18:40:09 - 00:19:02:23 Allen If you have to write something and, you know, put some bullets together on, here's a blog post that I'm thinking about. You know, ask gen AI if you can add some additional thoughts or what what the gaps are in your thinking. See what it comes back with. So keep on just testing little ideas and little things with it and see how we can help you continuously progress and just read a lot of information on it.

00:19:02:23 - 00:19:30:01 Allen I spend a lot of time on podcasts and reading different articles on it, and listening to different people outside of just courses, just to see how different organizations sort of have adopted it or used it in different instances to say, can I use that little nugget and bring it back to my organization? Can I test it myself? So I would just say, start with jumping in yourself, get familiar with it, and then just get your team playing with it as well and coming back with ideas to the table every single time.

00:19:30:01 - 00:19:44:22 Allen So whether you put a committee together and that's, you know, an organization committee or you do it with your own team and just bring back nuances every week and ideas and nuggets, I think that's the right way to start. And that's the best way to kind of learn yourself.

00:19:45:00 - 00:20:10:05 Alison  Many thanks. And with all the great resources that you and Kelly are both sharing, what we'll do to make it easy for our listeners is add links to the different resources that have been highlighted and the names of the books as well. So now there are lots of amazing benefits and lots of compelling reasons why marketers and not for profits, and charities and marketers in any industry really need to embrace and understand and start working with Genii.

00:20:10:07 - 00:20:27:09 Alison  It's far from perfect. There are always risks and watch out for any new technology. So what are some of the key lessons learned that both of you have experienced or watch out for, not for profits that you would give as they start to begin to leverage on Kelly?

00:20:27:13 - 00:20:48:18 Kelly I think for, biggest thing right now is understanding what happens to the information that you're putting in to the tool that you're using. There's some ways that those are private and that that information isn't shared into a larger database of information, but some of them aren't. It becomes part of that learning and accessible to other people eventually who would be using it.

00:20:48:18 - 00:21:12:06 Kelly So I think that's the number one thing. And if you're not sure there's, you know, resources on the web that you can find, I have found that the paid version of tools are often smarter than the non-paid version. So that's one thing that we've been we're at our office where we use Microsoft 365 platforms of the Copilot integrations.

00:21:12:06 - 00:21:31:14 Kelly In the paid version, we've gotten subscriptions for all our staff because that actually does offer a different level of privacy. My my general rule of thumb is if I wouldn't put it on our public website, I'm not going to put it into AI because I just assume anything going into AI is going to be public information at some point in time.

00:21:31:16 - 00:22:02:23 Kelly Then I think also understanding just the impact of AI generated content on how your brand is represented. So, you know, are you at a place where you're comfortable using AI generated images, which as charities sometimes loses that authenticity that's so important to the work that we do and the storytelling that we do. But sometimes, though, depending on the needs that your organization addresses, it may not be appropriate to take photos of that in AI.

00:22:02:23 - 00:22:24:09 Kelly May actually be able to help you tell your story in a different way. So I think really just understanding, the comfort level with AI generated content, I think eventually us as a society will become more accepting of it. I think right now there's some thoughts like, oh, that's not a center to us. We shouldn't be using it in our public facing materials.

00:22:24:11 - 00:22:35:13 Alison  that's such a smart rule of thumb that you've given us as well. If you wouldn't put it on your public website, then you probably shouldn't be feeding it into ChatGPT either. So, Alan, what would you add?

00:22:35:15 - 00:22:54:01 Allen I would definitely highlights, and reinforce the privacy aspect. So putting things in there that are private and, you know, could be harmful, I think is definitely something that you should stay away from and put some policies around it and give it some thought. I think the other added things is it's not always correct. It's not always right.

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:16:21 Allen The answers that you get back are not always perfect. So it's that's something that we all got. So we used to, you know, putting in a search function in Google, you'll get answers and you think it's always right. But it actually is not always correct. So being very careful about what you put in there and what you get back and evaluating what you get back and having that human element and and reinforcement I think is necessary for us.

00:23:16:21 - 00:23:34:04 Allen But it's coming to it from that mindset that it's an ad, it's a feature that you can help move you along in a process. But it's not always perfect. So it's, you know, mathematic skills might be great, but some of it's formulas it will offer how it speaks about certain things are off or it's English might be a little bit off.

00:23:34:06 - 00:24:01:17 Allen So having coming into it with that mindset is it's not perfect and you really got to be aware of those things. So Kelly talked about being authentic. So understanding that it might not capture your voice in the perfect way and then not have perfect grammar is something to definitely be aware of as a marketer, as a writer, as someone who's putting something together, a blog post or looking at a campaign and, and copy, you always should just be aware of that.

00:24:01:17 - 00:24:08:11 Allen So again, it's a great tool to help you get started and move you along. But it's not the final solution to something.

00:24:08:13 - 00:24:29:10 Alison  That's so true, but only is it not perfect. Sometimes it's out and out wrong. We can't get lazy about it. We absolutely need to take the time and apply the due diligence to make sure that it's accurate and factual, and also reflective of your personal tone and values and voice and your brand's, values and voice as well.

00:24:29:12 - 00:24:47:21 Allen It is always learning, and the beauty of AI, and we've been talking about this. It's always learning as you put more things in there as others do as well. So it gets to a better spot. But you're absolutely right. The the fact that it that you need that sort of human element always overseeing it kind of speaks to it'll never replace us.

00:24:47:21 - 00:24:53:01 Allen It needs us to keep on. And it should be seen as a tool, not a replacement.

00:24:53:03 - 00:25:18:08 Alison  Absolutely. Now, we've talked a lot about gen AI, and it's certainly, however, the biggest, most dominant trend in our profession today. But it's not the only trend. So our profession is absolutely continuing to evolve at warp speed. And we all have very, very busy day jobs. So I'd love you both to share, some tips for what you do to stay current with the latest trends.

00:25:18:10 - 00:25:38:15 Kelly Kelly Jones As you said, the whole industry evolves rapidly, and a lot of that has to do with the marketing technology that we use and where I think as a charity, where you might actually see the first impact of AI if you're not using it personally, is that the tools and systems that you use are now starting to integrate AI into their platforms and solutions.

00:25:38:15 - 00:26:08:06 Kelly So we've seen that with Adobe. We see that with things like Canva, which I know probably a lot of charities are using. So what I try to do is understand what they're offering now, through AI enhancements with their platform. And AI is the hot topic right now. So there are plenty of webinars that are offered by the vendors that you're working with that I'd encourage you to actually attend those because those are the tools that you're using, and they're just there to help you use their tools better, more efficient, and do more with them.

00:26:08:07 - 00:26:11:17 Alison  Thanks, Kelly. That's terrific advice. Ellen, what would you add?

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:32:05 Allen I would say that just listening to different podcasts and marketers and what's out there when going to networking events and talking to people, listening and sort of asking questions about what they're doing and how, what they're using. I use those moments and sort of reading up, you know, in different tech sections, at different newspapers about what's coming up in different campaigns.

00:26:32:10 - 00:26:53:10 Allen I use those opportunities and those sort of tools to help me upskill and sort of just stay on top of different things. So there's great podcasts such as this one to talk about the different tools and tech that's coming up in different practices. There is great articles and blogs that are being posted on LinkedIn and other sources that will allow marketers just to stay what's on top.

00:26:53:10 - 00:27:13:11 Allen And then Kelly, throughout the great idea and the webinar, I think there's so many great webinars being done by different vendors about all these different things. And that's something all those things that I know that I spend time reviewing, whether I wake up and I go for a run or I'm sitting on a trainer on a bike or whatever I'm doing, I think on the weekends, just reading up on all these things.

00:27:13:11 - 00:27:30:08 Allen I think as a marketer, it's a great opportunity for us to sort of just stay on top of these trends. But there's a lot of great people talking about a lot of great things. So we're just asking more questions and being more curious, I think is really behind it all. And how do we stay current and up to date?

00:27:30:10 - 00:27:51:18 Alison  I have a similar approach to you all on, a lot of podcasts accompany me on my runs and help distract me from the actual sweating and the hard work run. So multitasking on a different level. So you both have outstanding careers. Such an amazing experience, and I'd love to close off our discussion today by having each of you share one piece of advice for.

00:27:51:18 - 00:28:01:23 Alison  Or it can be for not for profit markers. It can just be for any marketers who are looking to embrace gen AI and drive success in their organizations.

00:28:02:01 - 00:28:24:05 Kelly So I think I'd like to give my advice to the people who haven't started yet, because I think there's this scariness aspect to it, like in this panel, like, oh, everybody's uses it. I'm not, I assure you, you're not the only one who has not started using it with these technologies is you've actually been designed in a different way than a lot of technologies, in that they're designed to be used based on just natural conversational language.

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:47:02 Kelly So there's actually not a big learning curve to get started with it. And as you basically have conversations with the machine, they'll start to ask you questions to help refine the information that you're getting out of it. So I think the one advice is if you haven't started, just pick a tool chat. The free version is a great one, and you don't even have to be a work related thing.

00:28:47:02 - 00:29:09:14 Kelly Ask it to help you plan a seven day vacation to Europe. And if you want to hit this end. And I think what really brought me into I was once you start to see the quality of the information and answers in the language, that starts to come back, because it's nothing like anything we've ever used before, and you'll see that it's really not a difficult technology to adopt.

00:29:09:14 - 00:29:33:18 Kelly When you hear that the next version of this is out it, it doesn't impact how you input into it. It's getting smarter on how to respond to what we're inputting into it. So as we've said, is to just play. And then as you get a little more comfortable, pick a task. So maybe you do want to generate some copy for a social media post, but the more specific you can be in your ask, the better.

00:29:33:18 - 00:29:47:21 Kelly So like the tone of voice, the length, what action you might want to drive, who it's for, the more information you can give it around the specific outputs you're looking for, the better results you're going to get. But just start playing in there.

00:29:47:23 - 00:30:05:19 Alison  I love the start playing and by the way, plan a wonderful vacation in here if there's a very aspirational element to that. So we have any listeners that are still a little bit reluctant. You've given them, a great added incentive to get in and start playing. So, Allen, how would you wrap things up?

00:30:05:21 - 00:30:31:02 Allen Stay curious. I think as marketers, we're probably entering or I've heard we're entering into the golden age of marketing, where we have all this rich data, where we have all this great technology and all these things at our disposal that are not overly expensive, that are giving us the opportunity to do things better, to reach our customers, to reach our donors, to reach people that we didn't think we could or understand them as well as we thought.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:53:02 Allen But really, it all starts with curiosity. And as a marketer, being curious about how you can do things better, how you can improve things can really lead to testing new things. Like, I like getting into data, like getting into different platforms that can deliver a better measurable result and measuring results. So I think it's just a matter of staying curious.

00:30:53:02 - 00:31:11:02 Allen You know, we've talked about play a lot over this podcast and just playing a little bit with the tools to understand how are they relevant to your organization? What are some of the pitfalls? What are the some of the do's and don'ts? And start small and expand a little bit. And then also talk to your network about how they are using this tool.

00:31:11:02 - 00:31:28:14 Allen I think we all as markers have great networks. We're all part of councils and committees. Like, I love my time on the NFP Committee on the CMA and some others that different boards and committees that I'm on. But I'm always asking questions of others, whether it's Kelly or other members, to say, how are you using this tool?

00:31:28:14 - 00:31:54:15 Allen Have you seen this tool? And that's part of the great part about joining the council on the CMA is like, you have that opportunity to discuss and also share and learn. So there's a lot of great content out there. And I think as a marketer, I think I would just say be curious about it, read it and just try to go seek it every day to improve the work that you're doing, improve the team that you're working on, and sort of grow it and gather and kind of move forward and and get to your goals.

00:31:54:15 - 00:32:07:07 Allen Because we all have lofty goals, our revenue goals or our donor goals or, you know, fundraising goals. So it's just there's a lot of great tools out there. And as a marketer, I think we have the opportunity to do some really great things.

00:32:07:09 - 00:32:30:02 Alison  That is very well said. Curiosity for any marketer at any stage in our career is absolutely a mission critical skill. I also like you're talking about we're entering the golden age of marketing. This is a profession that I love. I know both of you love it as well. It is not an easy profession. It's demanding, it's challenging, it's constantly evolving, and there's so much possibility in it.

00:32:30:02 - 00:32:56:15 Alison  And I truly do believe that with things like Gen, AI and just all of the change we're currently going through, it really is setting us up for a truly golden age of marketing. And I appreciate you ending the this wonderful conversation on that note, Alan. I know you're both incredibly busy, and I really appreciate the time you've taken today to share your experiences and your wisdom and great advice with all of our listeners.

00:32:56:17 - 00:32:57:07 Allen Thanks for hanging.

00:32:57:11 - 00:33:02:11 Kelly Out. Thanks for having us.

00:33:02:13 - 00:33:15:03 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the The CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

References:

1. Financial Post: https://financialpost.com/technology/can-ai-solve-canada-productivity-crisis 

2. Stats Can Report on Business Conditions: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240226/dq240226a-eng.htm 

3. Ipsos Report: https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Canadians-Least-Likely-AI-Make-Lives-Better 

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in  driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients.

00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07 Alison Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19 Alison We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization.

00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21 Alison And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today. 

Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.

00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08 Eric Thank you so much.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06 Alison Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07 Mary-Jane Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate.

00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23 Eric I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about.

00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13 Alison Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are?

00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15 Eric To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13 Eric However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions.

00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16 Eric Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured.

00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10 Eric So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12 Mary-Jane And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers.

00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07 Mary-Jane Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth

00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23 Mary-Jane Or even no growth.

00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11 Mary-Jane So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19 Eric That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote,

00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01 Eric right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders.

00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13 Mary-Jane Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint.

00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06 Mary-Jane They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product.

00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14 Mary-Jane And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way.

00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16 Eric I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01 Eric It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers.

00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10 Eric You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques.

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19 Eric And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve.

00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18 Alison So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well.

00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22 Alison So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are?

00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04 Mary-Jane So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building.

00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12 Mary-Jane They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10 Mary-Jane So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument,

00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20 Mary-Jane ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C.

00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03 Mary-Jane And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering

00:13:50:03 - 00:13:52:19 Mary-Jane rational benefits alone.

00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07 Eric Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12 Eric What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it.

00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20 Eric So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00 Eric Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent.

00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01 Eric So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical.

00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20 Alison It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey?

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22 Eric Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time.

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21 Eric And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12 Eric You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey.

00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15 Eric It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world.

00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09 Eric But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust.

00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06 Eric And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined.

00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16 Eric And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed.

00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06 Mary-Jane I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close.

00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20 Mary-Jane Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on your website get what they need at that step, right, rather than moving towards the close, asking permission in terms of the conversation, so that the person at the other end, that buyer feels heard and they feel that they got what they needed out of the react, out of the interaction.

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:30:14 Mary-Jane And that is a really different mindset. And what you typically find built into these demand generation initiatives.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:56:02 Eric Yeah. And if I can just add one more thing and absolutely agree, Mary-Jane, and I just don't want our, our audience to think, oh, brand building is this giant investment. And iajust giant endeavour. It's giant in the sense of you absolutely need to take the time to think about it and, you know, build on what Mary-Jane is saying, you know, how do you change the mindset from, you know, funnel to pancake?

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:19:16 Eric How do you change the mindset of what is valuable? How do you invest in experience as much of the storytelling as much as your action, and I'm using the big example, but very cost effective example. And also, by the way, that doesn't mean the traditional tactics and traditional approach, you know, just go out of the window. So it's it's just a matter of complementing each other.

00:21:19:18 - 00:21:51:09 Eric So in the course of our last season, you know, with the B2B Council, some colleagues brought to our attention, you know, the power of TikTok and how IBM, of all companies, are using it. And we just thought, oh, we never imagined that platform would be something that IBM would consider, or be beneficial. And when you actually follow the channel, when you look at the content they put out, it is quite  indicative of what they're trying to do.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:11:16 Eric As you can imagine, TikTok videos are not big production. In fact, they shouldn't be, right? They're a bit more scrappy, you know, a bit more authentic, a bit more authentic, a bit more in the moment. So I'll give you two examples of what they did and which is quite interesting. One is the most traditional one in that they were at South by Southwest.

00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:06 Eric So clearly they want to associate the brand with creativity and with, you know, future thinking. They use real people on the floor, IBM, as they call them. You know, in this case a prime market manager. And just do a TikTok video and you say, okay, well, that you know, what's what's so special about it. What's so special about it is how they show up.

00:22:35:10 - 00:23:03:17 Eric You know, they're using a creator as the interviewer and they're using the product marketing manager as a speaker, and they're using language that absolutely anyone can relate to. And that speaks volume to what Mary-Jane was saying. The human side. You know, the the IBMer was saying, hey, I'm a mom, I'm a working mom. And if AI could just sort of all of my household management duties, that would be my dream.

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:34:15 Eric And so all of a sudden it's very relatable. And so that's one example. The second example is they use deliberately TikTok humour, you know, really quote unquote rough and ready animation. But it's not because they can't afford, you know, big beautiful production. This is deliberate. You can tell. And it's a short video, TikTok humor, so often you can tell, oh, this is driving to a very specific audience and that would resonate with that specific audience.

00:23:34:16 - 00:24:03:03 Eric And the third, going back to AI, is they are using these little clips, you know, to explain AI to people and just keep reiterating, keep it simple. So I can only, you know, I'm an outsider. I don't run that program, but I can only imagine a) they're trying to reach, you know, at a younger generation workforce. And in, in this case it's so important that to touch to start, you know, grooming and be relevant to the next generation workforce.

00:24:03:05 - 00:24:30:09 Eric Extending their investment in a conference, in this case South by Southwest to a much larger audience and get more impact out of it and them making themselves just shake out the, you know, big blue, kind of, brand perception and, and just and just be humorous, just just be TikTok-ready. So all of these things contribute to, to me as a user, as a viewers experience of the brand.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:49:00 Alison Those are great examples, Eric. And I really like how it's a great demonstration that doesn't have to be big budget to build your brand. They have absolutely focused on being very relevant and added a very human element to what they're doing. So thank you for bringing to life a lot of what we've talked about today with those very powerful examples.

00:24:49:02 - 00:24:56:02 Alison So what advice do you have for B2B marketers who are really looking to elevate their craft and seize missed opportunities? 

00:24:56:03 - 00:25:09:14 Mary-Jane So I would say, I would say, you know, if you're a younger person early in your career, you know, you're already on a path where you've selected, you know, what you feel is going to be your subject matter expertise, right, your skill set.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:53:15 Mary-Jane And so you really need to understand that talent and brains are a dime a dozen. So for you to really advance, you need to to invest in making yourself the best that you can be in that area. But I think the other thing, and this is recognizing that we live in such a dynamic and changing world, is that really maintaining a broad curiosity in life and be willing to invest in broadening your knowledge across a lot of different areas beyond the the skill set that you're becoming an expert in, because it's that broader perspective that will bring to you the opportunities yourself to have creative insights.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:14:15 Eric Yeah, Mary-Jane, what you just said reminds me of, a very good visual. One of my SEO clients, shared with me a long time ago. He calls it the T shape. So you have to be as broad as you need to be in the environment that you're operating and as deep as you need to be in terms of your subject matter expertise.

00:26:14:21 - 00:26:47:08 Eric And I think in today's world, like you said, many, many people start with being a subject matter expert, that that is a normal, career path. What is challenging now is how broad do we need to go? And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of signals in the B2B world, that creativity is actually much more valued and much more embraced, as reflected by, say, you know, a lot of the national and international awards, including, you know, our very own CMA Awards. And why?

00:26:47:09 - 00:27:25:09 Eric Because there's a lot to be learned from other disciplines. I'll give one final example, and that's an example actually Mary-Jane and I used it in our blog for the CMA, and that is, a campaign launched by Roland, which is an enterprise printing technology company, and it's a UK campaign. Now, traditionally, and I have worked with printing companies, traditionally, when you have a printing technology, you go to trade shows, you have white papers, you go knock on doors and tell people, you know how amazing, you know, this feed and feeds and whatever you can do with this technology. None of that is going to go away,

00:27:25:09 - 00:27:58:02 Eric  you still need to do all those things. But what they have done is they literally borrowed a song sheet from traditional B2C marketing. They are trying to demonstrate the superiority of that printing technology by addressing the, what they call 50 Shades of Ginger. Looking at how we can demonstrate the gradient of this technology through storytelling from a consumer lens.

00:27:58:04 - 00:28:28:12 Eric So they engaged influencers to talk about how redheads growing up, you know, have a lot of challenges, you know, being accepted because they are minority from from that perspective. And, but they have fun conversations, right? You know, oh, yeah. You know, I, I don't know if I was a ginger or a redhead, or what I call myself? And then they, they have, you know, influencers going on television talking about this technology because they produce this book of 50 Shades of Ginger.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:55:14 Eric And from there they create an event and bringing all the, you know, people with ginger coloured hair, hair together to an event and talk about their shades and talk about, oh, how I can replicate that shade and that becomes this campaign on broadcast on, you know, morning television, in mainstream newspapers, which no print technology company traditionally would dream of getting that kind of attention.

00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:20 Eric Now, of course, that example is so good that it won a Drum award in the UK last year. And but that is a really good example to show how both B2B and B2C can learn from each other.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:30:23 Alison That is such a fun example. I have a couple of gingers in my life and I'll definitely be sharing that story with them. So you both have very impressive and enviable careers. So we'll step away from the B2B conversation now, and I'd love to end by having you each share a piece of advice for our listeners. I know that they would really enjoy being able to learn from each of you.

00:29:31:01 - 00:29:57:18 Mary-Jane A single piece of advice I would say. I mean, we all wear blinders, right? It what? It's what allows us to be really laser-focused. But of course, in being laser- focused, we miss out on what is in the periphery, in other words, the blinders that we wear. So I'd invite each of us to really challenge yourself, to be curious about what's on the other side of the blinders that you're wearing.

00:29:57:20 - 00:30:30:00 Eric Mine is very similar to Mary-Jane, you know, Mary-Jane, you used the word curiosity, which I use for myself and my team a lot. And for me, it doesn't matter where you are at in your career journey, curiosity and constant learning is really something that I value. And I encourage, my team and whoever works with me, you know, to to embrace, because, you know, to Mary -ane's point, we all have blinders and the environment changes so quickly.

00:30:30:05 - 00:30:43:12 Eric The last thing we want is to have a Kodak experience. So we we sometimes we just don't know what's coming. And you know, we really just need to pay attention to what is evolving.

00:30:43:14 - 00:31:03:13 Alison And that is great advice. Our profession is going through absolutely tectonic shift. So anyone that is going to continue to thrive absolutely has to be open to change. Embrace that. And curiosity is an absolutely mission critical skill. So great advice and thank you to the two of you. I also want to thank you for a really great and insightful conversation.

00:31:03:13 - 00:31:11:08 Alison I've learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today.

00:31:11:10 - 00:31:12:04 Mary-Jane Our pleasure.

00:31:12:09 - 00:31:13:09 Eric Thank you so much.

00:31:13:11 - 00:31:14:12 Mary-Jane Thank you Alison.

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:23 Eric It's been great fun and great honour to to have this discussion with you.

00:31:18:04 - 00:31:23:19 Alison Thank you.

00:31:23:21 - 00:31:36:11 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this thought-provoking episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, is joined by Rhonda Barnet, CEO of Palette Skills to discuss the critical role of workforce development in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Rhonda highlights the importance of including marketing in upskilling programs and delves into the early success stories emerging from the Digital Marketing Skills Canada (DMSC) program.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:07 - 00:00:53:07 Alison In today's episode, we have a special guest who brings a very unique perspective on workforce development as well as the critical role it plays in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Joining me is Rhonda Barnet, the CEO of Pallete Skills, an organization that's at the forefront of delivering the Upskill Canada program. With a background in industry, Rhonda has a very deep understanding of the challenges employers face in developing the workforce of tomorrow and the importance of creating a truly sustainable, innovative economy.

00:00:53:09 - 00:01:24:16 Alison Rhonda is very much a female trailblazer, having achieved great heights in very male dominated industries and institutions. She is a successful executive, entrepreneur, sir and director, as well as a key voice in Canada and around the world when it comes to skills of the future, workforce development and diversity. Rhonda and I also share our first. She was the first woman to chair the National Board of Canada's oldest, largest trade association, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, and I'm the first female CEO of the CMA.

00:01:24:18 - 00:01:47:20 Alison Rhonda joined Pallete Skills in 2021 to help Canadians build careers and growing industries, which is how our paths crossed. The CMA, in partnership with two of our member companies, Jelly Academy and Growclass, were awarded funding to upskill 1200 marketers and help them find new roles as part of Palette Skills innovative upskilling Canada program, which is funded by the Canadian government.

00:01:47:22 - 00:02:15:03 Alison In our conversation will delve into the origin story of Upskill Canada and the government's vision for addressing key skill gaps across high demand professions and industries. We'll also discuss the case for including marketing in the upskilling initiative and the early success stories emerging from our Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, which is led by the CMA. Rhonda will also share her insights on how upskilling drives innovation and her advice for aspiring leaders in our field.

00:02:15:05 - 00:02:24:14 Alison So let's dive in and learn how we can all play a part in building a brighter future for marketing and the Canadian workforce. Welcome, Rhonda. It's great to be speaking with you today.

00:02:24:16 - 00:02:27:08 Rhonda Thank you Alison. Thank you so much.

00:02:27:10 - 00:02:38:15 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share what government needs and aspirations led to the creation of Upskill Canada, and how does Upskill Canada aim to impact various professions and industries in our country?

00:02:38:17 - 00:03:01:07 Rhonda Yeah, thank you for that. It's a nice, broad question that I'd love to take some time on. So this investment comes from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada which used to be Industry Canada. So having come from 32 years in industry, I know full well of the issues that industry face around skilled labour and the skilled labou r shortage.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:30:14 Rhonda So this investment was really about looking at the systemic problem in Canada, where, you know, on one hand, we tout that we have this highly skilled workforce and that we are second in the OECD in terms of tertiary degrees in the world. And yet we have this enormous skills gap, and mid-career workers are not able to keep navigating to that next job along the path in Canada.

00:03:30:20 - 00:03:59:21 Rhonda So while on one hand, we're making tremendous strides and incredible investments as a country in skills development, you know, at the early stages of a person's career, we need to do more to keep them connected. And I think from a manufacturing perspective of retooling, we don't throw away things. We retool. And that's what upskilling is. We want to be able to do small things in a fast period of time to ensure that workers have what they need for that next opportunity.

00:03:59:22 - 00:04:33:18 Rhonda We want to make the most in Canada of the workforce that we have available to us, so that we can actually compete on talent. And so that's really where this whole Upskill Canada investment was born, that this was an initiative that was put forward to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. They put out an RFP in 2022. We were selected March 2023 to be the lead applicant on this $250 billion investment to upskill 15,500 workers over three years.

00:04:33:18 - 00:04:59:05 Rhonda It's the biggest investment in Canadian history in upskilling. And we're so privileged and honoured to be the lead applicant to really convene the ecosystem to do this meaningful work. So, you know, why is it important? It's important because, you know, at the root of it, we have this, these hot pockets of highly skilled talent that are underutilized. People are not getting their full advancement in their career.

00:04:59:07 - 00:05:32:10 Rhonda And we have all of these companies with job openings. And so our program is to really bridge that gap. It's to say, okay, let's look at the potential of the workers and these sort of short cycle programs that can get them the very specific skills that industry is  asking for in a very short time. And let's put that together across the country, across sectors, make meaningful investments that are going to help workers achieve their full potential and help employers achieve their full potential by having the skilled talent they need to grow and compete.

00:05:32:12 - 00:05:39:15 Rhonda And when that works, then Canada can achieve its full potential with thriving humming economy.

00:05:39:17 - 00:06:11:00 Alison Thanks so much, Rhonda. What an amazing first and what an important mission critical mandate that you have through pallet and the Skills Canada Initiative and I really applaud the innovation that you, in partnership with the federal government, have developed in order to really meet that mission critical need. I'd love to have you share what led to the inclusion of marketing, especially digital marketing, in the Upskill Canada initiative and what data was used to showcase the importance of digital marketing in the skills gap in the marketplace.

00:06:11:02 - 00:06:35:17 Rhonda You know, when we set this up, we were given the sectors. We were given six key sectors to develop an investment strategy around. Those sectors are ag tech, advanced manufacturing, bio manufacturing, clean tech, digital tech and cyber technology. And you know, marketing wasn't specifically called out as a sector. But of course we know marketing is actually a crosswalk across all sectors.

00:06:35:17 - 00:06:59:15 Rhonda And digital marketing even more so, we know that this digital investment that we're making is really cross-cutting across all sectors. But you know, where did where do we sort of get the justification for this investment? When we were given this investment, we went to Deloitte to help support an investment framework for these funds that would have the most impact for Canada economy in these six sectors.

00:06:59:17 - 00:07:27:03 Rhonda And that investment analysis is available on our website. But that was very big macroeconomic analysis of, you know, where are the key roles and sectors that if we made investments there, we'd get the most economic gain for our country. And what we heard in that report, in our own report, is that digital marketing skills are critical for success of all of Canada's growth sectors.

00:07:27:03 - 00:08:03:00 Rhonda So it's in that report. And even though it wasn't called out specifically in our application process, your organization came forward and you built a very compelling case, a very compelling proposal, and you really highlighted the business need in Canada for digital marketing. And I remember this actually coming over my desk for review. And I'd like to maybe read some of the stats that came through that application that really captured our interest and our attention as we looked to approve various investments.

00:08:03:02 - 00:08:33:07 Rhonda So three organizations which are near and dear to me. The Conference Board of Canada, was cited, estimating that the demand for digital marketers is grown over 90% in the last five years. That's really compelling. And the ICTC, the Information and Communication Technology Council forecasts that Canada's interactive digital media space is on pace to require an additional 103,000 workers by 2025.

00:08:33:07 - 00:08:58:22 Rhonda So you submitted that in 2023. We're almost at 2025. So how are we going to meet that demand, that's compelling. And additional statistics from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce from 2020, 70% of Canadian CEOs report significant challenges recruiting and retaining diverse digital marketing talent with the right certifications and skills. So that's a very compelling business case that you presented.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:28:15 Rhonda And what we know is that marketing is a really great example of a profession where skills are constantly evolving, and that's really what Upskill Canada is here to solve for is, as things are disrupted and changing, we want to make sure that the workers stay relevant, that they have that next skill to remain relevant in their profession, or to change professions, that they are given an opportunity to leverage what they have, add something small and have a vibrant new career.

00:09:28:15 - 00:09:50:20 Rhonda So I think this investment, it ticked all of those boxes and we're very excited. And I think we're going to talk a little bit later on about this specific investment. But we do know that the the investments that are made in this program, they are cross-cutting across all sectors. So it's a great project for Upskill Canada. It's a great project for Canada.

00:09:50:22 - 00:10:22:05 Alison Thanks for and and I really appreciate you and your team being open to the submission that we made and the importance of upskilling in marketing. There is no industry in Canada that isn't going through dramatic change today, I would say, and clearly I have a bias, but think having been worked across a number of different industries, the role of marketing and the number of external pressures and the amount of change that we as a profession are grappling with really is significantly more than most other industries.

00:10:22:05 - 00:10:42:14 Alison And it really speaks to the need to upskill marketers and make sure that they can continue to have the skills that they need to thrive and help the businesses that they represent grow. And we're certainly seeing that in the high demand for the three programs that we're offering as part of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada initiative. And we can talk about that a little bit later.

00:10:42:16 - 00:10:59:06 Alison Now, I would love you to talk about why workforce development is critical for fueling innovation in Canada, and also how can upskilling programs like ours, the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, help address Canada's productivity gap, especially as it relates to innovation?

00:10:59:08 - 00:11:24:05 Rhonda Yeah, so when I think about workforce development, I actually like to use workforce innovation. I'm going around the country right now talking about the need for workforce innovation, but I've really started talking about it in terms of productivity. There's a lot of conversations in Canada right now about productivity and lagging productivity for our country. I think about productivity as a three legged stool.

00:11:24:07 - 00:11:53:04 Rhonda There's research and development and investments there by companies. There's new technologies that are leveraged through companies, and then there's people that need the skills to take advantage of those new technologies and to do that research and development, to develop that next technology, to develop that next product. So if we're going to think about productivity in Canada, let's not just think about technology and how we're going to have more, better technology.

00:11:53:06 - 00:12:24:16 Rhonda We need humans to do that. And so we have a three legged stool in Canada around productivity. And really it's almost a bit of a chicken and egg because we can't develop those technologies if we don't have the skilled workers to deploy and companies to do that research and development and to leverage new technologies and companies. You know, when you think about productivity, it's really about creating more output and more value with less input.

00:12:24:18 - 00:13:03:19 Rhonda And, you know, when we really give people high level, specific skills to do the job, to do a better job, to do a higher quality job, that's an advancement for the country, that's an advancement for the worker. And so I really like to think about workforce development and workforce innovation as a big lever in productivity in Canada. So how are we looking at solving this problem at Pallette, you know, through our investments and your investment being being one of those. We're really looking at this pool of workers in Canada that are these high potential people that aren't being seen for their full potential.

00:13:03:19 - 00:13:35:19 Rhonda And we think about all of these unfilled jobs. And as I said in the opening, we're here to bridge that gap between the skills gap and industry needs. That's what we're here to do in Canada. We want to elevate the standard of upskilling because we want to demonstrate that with partners like you that we can design short cycle, quick programs to get workers the skills they need, where they're at right now and deploy them into the workforce quickly. And again, that's such a big lever in productivity.

00:13:35:19 - 00:13:53:09 Rhonda When we think about the double drag of people not having their full potential, it's a drag on the economy and we're going to make quick investments and we're going to then be able to lift and see a double win on the economy when workers and employers achieve their full potential. So that's what our investments are aimed to do.

00:13:53:11 - 00:14:21:16 Rhonda And we know that to solve this, we need to leverage our our highly diverse, highly skilled and highly motivated workforce so that we can ensure that workers are getting the right skills at the right time in their working lives. And we need to be thinking about workers, as you know, in terms of their whole working lives. It's not like you go to school for 3 or 4 years, and then you're just dumped into the workforce for 30 or 40 years, and you're fine with just small fine tuning or training.

00:14:21:16 - 00:14:42:20 Rhonda We think about upskilling is really elevating a person. So that's what Upskill Canada's here to do. That's how we think about being innovative in terms of workforce development, that we're really going to use these investments to help Canadians make the most of their working lives and help companies access the skills they need at the time they need them to compete and grow.

00:14:42:22 - 00:14:50:13 Rhonda And this is what we need to innovate on the Canadian economy and around productivity in Canada.

00:14:50:15 - 00:15:27:02 Alison So well said, Rhonda, and when I think about my finishing my schooling and 25 plus years later, how much the profession, the our consumers, the marketplace has evolved. If I had thought that what I knew when I finished school was all I would need, I would have been out of a career, this career decades ago. So that ongoing learning and upskilling is so important to us as a country to benefiting our ability to innovate and drive our economy, and also for the individual from a job satisfaction and job growth.

00:15:27:04 - 00:15:54:08 Alison I will say one of the most rewarding things about the training we're doing through the DMSC initiative is seeing firsthand and talking to the learners as they're going through one of our three programs, as they're getting support in their job search and as they're landing their job, there is nothing more rewarding than to see the impact we're having a very personal level, too, and often on underrepresented groups.

00:15:54:10 - 00:16:21:11 Alison That is such a core mandate and mission for, I know, for Upskill Canada, for Palette, and certainly for the CMA as well. So to see the positive impact other national as well as an individual basis speaks volumes about the importance of the program and company that you're leading. Now I would love you to share what kind of impact you envision pilots upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy.

00:16:21:13 - 00:17:01:13 Rhonda Yeah, I just love this question. I love to answer this question, and I want to just keep going back to this concept of potential because it's really about potential. Canada has so much potential. We have great humans, great workers in our country, highly skilled workers, and we have amazing companies in Canada. And if we're going to achieve our full potential as a country, we have to make sure that workers are able to achieve their full potential, that they are seen for the jobs of the future, that they are seen for that next job, that they are not pigeonholed because of the kind of experience that they've had to date or the country that they came

00:17:01:13 - 00:17:24:03 Rhonda from, that they don't have Canadian experience. We need humans to be seen for their full potential, so that companies can achieve their full potential and Canada can achieve its full potential. So to me, that is the greatest impact that we can have through this investment. But this investment is just a drop in the bucket. I do know that, but it's an important one and it's a national one.

00:17:24:05 - 00:17:50:07 Rhonda And so this investment is going to change the lives of at least 15,500 workers in Canada, will get access to these upskilling programs across sectors, across our nation. And the goal is to have 75% of those workers achieve job placement. So that's the real differentiator. That's the real impact here is that we're not looking to put bums on seats in training programs in Canada.

00:17:50:09 - 00:18:18:14 Rhonda Lots of organizations can do that. We really want pointed upskilling programs, high potential workers that want to take those programs and land in a job and make sure that everything that we are doing and investing in is leading to those job outcomes. We have significant targets for equity deserving groups within our our investment mandate, and all delivery partners are contracted to ensure that they're meeting those.

00:18:18:14 - 00:18:34:14 Rhonda And I would like to say that we are knocking those out of the park. So I want to give you a few stats from our early wins on this investment. And we're only one year into the program. And, you know, it took several months to get off the ground and to make the formal investments with organizations like yours.

00:18:34:14 - 00:18:57:08 Rhonda So we expect to hear so many more stats coming out in the next few months around impact and job placement. But right now, what we're seeing is that 94% of our participants have identified as belonging to one or more of the equity deserving groups that we have been contracted to to fulfill. So that's that's really amazing. And this one blows my mind.

00:18:57:08 - 00:19:18:13 Rhonda 52.3% of them were women, because when we were given this mandate and trying to figure out in all these technology sectors that we're serving, how are we going to attract 50% women? How are we going to think about the population, which I think is 52% of women in the country, that that we can do that. And guess what?

00:19:18:13 - 00:19:42:18 Rhonda Right now we're doing that and we're pretty excited about that. We've already upskilled through our programs, around 3000 workers. And in that data, we're seeing that 52% through all delivery partners are women. So that excites me because of all the work that I did around women in manufacturing. 84% of those have agreed that the program gave them the technical skills that they need to compete.

00:19:42:18 - 00:20:07:04 Rhonda So these programs are relevant, and that's really exciting. 86% said that the program gave them the professional skills to compete, and more than 90% said that they would recommend the program to others. So what we're doing is making a difference in people's lives, and that is going to translate to jobs, and that's what we'll be tracking next. But that's a broad scope of the investments.

00:20:07:04 - 00:20:28:16 Rhonda You know, I'd really like to spend some time talking about your investment. Alison, I'd really like to hear about what you're doing with this digital marketing program that where we've made an investment through Upskill Canada. I want to hear about some of the insights and early successes and love for you to share with me and share with the country what you're doing and what you're achieving.

00:20:28:18 - 00:20:56:00 Alison Rhonda, I am more than happy to have the tables turned on me and switch roles to the interviewee instead of the interviewer, so thank you very much for the question. So I will start by saying that earlier you called out the importance of mid-career upskilling. So part of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium, we have three different programs, but two of them are focused on that specific need, that mid-market need because we, like you, know there's a mission critical demand there.

00:20:56:02 - 00:21:17:09 Alison And I'm also very happy to say from a diversity perspective, you're doing very well. On the female side, we're doing even better. We're sitting at about 65% of our learners are female, and we have over 80% of all of the learners that are participating to date in our program are from underrepresented groups. And we're performing quite well as BIPOC, too.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:50:10 Alison So we're very, very happy that collectively and also our program are over achieving the targets on the diversity side to0. So we're only six months in. We just celebrated our six month anniversary on the program. We started in January, and the beginning point was having our consortium build, launch and ramp up three upskilling marketing programs to create new pathways for junior through that important mid-market and more senior career marketing talent into Canada's very dynamic digital marketing space.

00:21:50:12 - 00:22:18:16 Alison The CMA is absolutely thrilled that we're partnering with two other leaders in delivering these three distinct training programs that are uniquely equipped to really meet the needs of marketers across a wide range of skills and experience. And as I highlighted earlier, the marketing profession is moving at warp speed. There are so many external pressures that are changing how we do our our work, and it can be very challenging for marketers to stay up to speed.

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:45:04 Alison So each of our programs is uniquely equipped to ensure that they can. And it also makes sure that our marketers who graduate can excel in today's very demanding and constantly evolving marketing environment. So one of our partners is Jelly Academy, and they're an indigenous-led Canadian company who are specializing in delivering training to junior marketers and also those that are interested in pursuing a career in marketing for the first time.

00:22:45:06 - 00:23:24:10 Alison Our second partners Growclass, and they're a female-founded Canadian company. They've got a really terrific track record for upskilling mid-level digital marketers. And the CMA complements these two programs with our Chartered Marketer program. The Chartered Marketer program is Canada's only professional designation for marketers, and it's designed for mid to senior level marketers. So one of the key benefits of our Digital Marketing Skills Canada consortium is that we do offer these three different seven week training programs that are very specifically designed to upskill marketers with very different levels of experience, from brand new to the profession, through to quite senior marketers.

00:23:24:12 - 00:23:48:03 Alison In our first six months, we've had over 1100 applications for our training programs, and we're on track to upskill over 470 learners. That's actually 70% higher than our target. And it really speaks to the high demand for the marketing upskilling that we're providing. We're training many marketers in transition and very focused on underrepresented workers for the program as well.

00:23:48:09 - 00:24:27:05 Alison So I'm happy to share that we're making a very positive difference there, too. And I shared some of those stats a bit earlier. But as I called up the the individuals, how it all ladders up to the overall impact that our programs having in the Upskill Canada program was having, has the potential to be such a game changer for our country and also at the individual level. Every day, every week, we're having more people graduate from one of our programs and to talk to them about the positive impact we're having, to share and support them through their career journey, and to see the satisfaction they're landing new roles and really seeing their career trajectory

00:24:27:05 - 00:24:58:05 Alison change for the positive is truly one of the most rewarding parts of my job. So on that, we're supporting our learners and graduates through their job search, and really ensuring that they have the important networking and interviewing skills and that's something that is a key focus of the consortium. I know of the bigger Upskill Canada program as well. And then our all graduates also benefit from a one year membership with the CMA, which makes it really easy for them to network, to continue to learn, and to be part of a thriving national marketing community.

00:24:58:07 - 00:25:21:18 Alison We're also very proud that 241 of our learners have already been placed in jobs. 

Rhonda Wow. 

Alison That's over 50% of all of our learners to date, and there are quite a few learners that are still finishing their programs, so haven't been able to focus as fully on their job search yet. So with that, we are very much on track to exceed your target and to have more than 80% of our graduates placed in new roles within six months of graduating.

00:25:21:18 - 00:25:31:05 Alison And that is such an important mandate for the CMA and our partners in the consortium. And I know it's certainly an important mandate for you and Palette as well.

00:25:31:06 - 00:25:52:23 Rhonda Wow, congratulations, Alison. That's just so exciting. And, you know, this is such a great example of elevating the standard of upskilling in Canada. You're doing it. You're knocking it out of the park. We've made this investment with you. You did all of the right things. You found the right curriculum that industry was looking for and the right kind of people to put through those programs.

00:25:53:01 - 00:26:13:06 Rhonda And they're succeeding, and they're completing those programs, and they're getting jobs in Canada, and they're working for companies to help those companies grow and prosper. So congratulations. This is exactly what we're hoping for in this investment. And thank you for helping to set the standard of upskilling in Canada.

00:26:13:08 - 00:26:46:10 Alison It's truly our pleasure and is very much a team effort. We have such great partners in our consortium, and it really shows the power of bringing together talented organizations and consortiums so that we can have the biggest possible impact. One of the other things that we launched last month was a talent pipeline, because with all of these great graduates and newly upskilled marketers across from very junior to quite senior people, we know that we want to make it as easy as possible for employers who are looking for these roles to find top talent.

00:26:46:10 - 00:27:09:07 Alison So we have a talent database that is easily accessible and easily searchable, and we're seeing very good feedback and uptake from not just the members of the Canadian Marketing Association, but it's open to employers across the country of all sizes. And it's such a powerful way to make sure that you're getting the right talent, and the most recently upskill talent to really help your business succeed.

00:27:09:09 - 00:27:25:01 Alison So, Rhonda, you've been very generous with your time today, and I'd love to ask you two questions before we close out. As a female CEO of a significant and dynamic organization, and one that's setting new firsts in our country, what do you attribute your success to?

00:27:25:03 - 00:27:48:17 Rhonda Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. You know, people think that I climbed a lot of ladders to get here, but I didn't I didn't, I didn't climb big corporate ladders to be the CEO of a national not for profit. But I did big things and I did hard things. And, and the way that I was able to do those things was through a lot of sponsorship and mentorship.

00:27:48:19 - 00:28:05:04 Rhonda You know, I came from a blue collar family, was the first to go to university, in my entire family and I took a degree in mathematics, because I was good in mathematics. I didn't know what job it would lead me to. But people mentored and coached me and helped me along the way to help me achieve my full potential.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:47:22 Rhonda And it's really been my personal story that I could achieve more than I could see for myself. That there was this vision of myself that others could see as well, and I could learn to see that for myself. And I can have the confidence that I could do those things and follow that path. And so that's really what we're here to do in Upskill Canada, is to make sure that people see pathways for their future, that they don't get stuck, that because of their experience or their family of origin, that they're stuck in one place, that I think employment is the greatest success to break down barriers in, in our economy.

00:28:48:00 - 00:29:08:12 Rhonda And so we're here to really make sure that people are seen for their full potential. And that's been my own story. So it's so gratifying to have lived that myself and to now be able to do that for others. So when I was with the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters and running Women in Manufacturing, it was a really big policy initiative.

00:29:08:12 - 00:29:30:11 Rhonda And I had so many companies and people interested, and I got on the world stage with this. And and what I found, though, was as I was doing all of that work at a policy level to really bring attention and awareness to this, that real women would stand at my feet and say like, how? How do I do it?

00:29:30:13 - 00:29:53:23 Rhonda And so now through Upskill Canada, we have investments and tools to help people facing barriers to employment to access those programs and to be seen for better employment. So that's really my personal story. Like, who knew when I was growing up that I'd be the CEO of a national not for profit, but I did big things and I did them well, and I've had to learn to have confidence in my abilities.

00:29:53:23 - 00:30:04:03 Rhonda And lots of good people have put me on their shoulders to to ensure that I could see it and feel it, and to mentor and support me in my success.

00:30:04:05 - 00:30:26:12 Alison I love that you've come full circle. I also love you've done big things, but you also called out, you've done hard things and that's such an important part of growing your career and ultimately succeeding. And the other one that you've shared that really resonated with me from my personal experience is having people who believed in you and helped you see potential in yourself that you didn't, couldn't see without them.

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:42:17 Alison And to your point, Upskill Canada being able to help people over 15,000 people in Canada see that potential in themselves and really accelerate their career. My last question is, what advice would you give our listeners who are aspiring to leadership roles?

00:30:42:19 - 00:31:04:20 Rhonda Well, I think it's believe in yourself, have a vision for your future and take steps towards it. Like, I think you know, you don't always get invited in. Sometimes you have to take that step yourself and take the initiative. And so programs like Upskill Canada can help you. You can go and search all of the programs that we have in Canada and invest in yourself.

00:31:04:23 - 00:31:37:15 Rhonda These programs have very low barrier to entry. They're mostly subsidized that you can go and and be matched with programs to help you take that next step. And I think, you know, workers in Canada need to think about keeping current and taking more steps on their path and not getting stuck and not being fixed and, and have bold visions for yourself and go out there and and try to make it happen, because Canada is a great country to make that happen, frankly.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:45:08 Rhonda I think there's a lot of opportunity in this country for people who want to be leaders, to be seen as leaders.

00:31:45:10 - 00:32:11:16 Alison Rhonda, it has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for your partnership and on behalf of the Canadian Marketing Association and also our DMSC consortium, we are thrilled to be part of the mission that you've seen for Canada and really helping to upskill our profession and help advance our economy and make sure our businesses are highly competitive and thriving, both on a national and a global basis.

00:32:11:18 - 00:32:13:19 Alison So thank you, thank you, thank you.

00:32:13:21 - 00:32:20:02 Rhonda Thank you, Alison.

00:32:20:04 - 00:32:32:18 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jacqueline Ryan, CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee. Jacqueline shares her passion for sports and the Foundation's crucial role in supporting Canada's elite athletes. With the Paris 2024 Olympic Games approaching, they discuss the success of Canada's female athletes and reveal how Canadians can rally behind Team Canada.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:18 - 00:00:45:12 Alison Welcome to a special and timely episode of CMA Connect. With the Paris Olympics just around the corner, I'm absolutely thrilled to bring you an inside look at the Canadian Olympic Committee's preparations and the exciting prospects for Team Canada at the upcoming games. Joining us today is Jacquie Ryan. She's the CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:00:45:14 - 00:01:17:16 Alison Jacquie is one of the most influential and effective leaders in sport. Her impressive career spans over 20 years, leading strategy, brand, communications, sponsorship, loyalty programs, digital marketing, corporate social responsibility and sustainability in sports in the financial services sector. She's also held board roles, including her current position as a CMA Board director. Jacquie brings a unique perspective to her role not only as a seasoned sport marketing executive, but also as someone with a deeply personal connection to the Olympic movement.

00:01:17:18 - 00:01:43:03 Alison After growing up in an Olympic family, and her sister's experience as an Olympic athlete, this really fuelled  Jacquie's lifelong passion for sport and her commitment to supporting Canadian athletes on the global stage. In our episode today, Jacquie is sharing insights on the Canadian Olympic Committee's marketing and sponsorship strategies and how they're collaborating with partners to create impactful campaigns that will resonate with Canadians while also driving business results.

00:01:43:05 - 00:02:06:19 Alison We're also going to explore the Team Canada Impact Agenda, a critical social impact program that reflects the Canadian Olympic Committee's commitment to fostering safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports environments for all. And we'll dive into the outlook for Team Canada in Paris, and the athletes poised to make their mark. This discussion promises to be a fascinating behind the scenes look at the incredible work being done by the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:02:06:21 - 00:02:08:08 Alison So welcome, Jacquie.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:14:02 Jacquie Thank you Alison. Great pleasure to be here today. I'm so excited to chat with you today about it.

00:02:14:04 - 00:02:18:07 Alison I really appreciate you taking time in what has to be a remarkably busy schedule.

00:02:18:09 - 00:02:20:19 Jacquie It is indeed.

00:02:20:21 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd love to kick it off by asking, what attracted you to the role of CEO at the Canadian Olympic Committee? And how has your lifelong passion for sport shaped your career journey?

00:02:31:01 - 00:02:51:18 Jacquie Thanks, Alison, and thanks for asking. Yes, I am just so fortunate to be in the position I'm in. What attracted me to the role? You know, it really comes from, you've already mentioned it, just a lifelong passion for sport. I do come from a sports oriented family. We grew up doing lots of different sports together. The one common thread for our family was skiing.

00:02:51:19 - 00:03:12:18 Jacquie So we spent a lot of time together doing that, to the extent that my sister ended up excelling in skiing and becoming an Olympic athlete in freestyle skiing. So I had that really unique purview of seeing how hard and how dedicated, how committed these athletes are on their journey, and all the resources and supports it takes to get there.

00:03:12:19 - 00:03:33:21 Jacquie So that's kind of the purview I come from. And then that in addition to just really enjoying being in a sporting environment, I found my way after university in Banff teaching skiing and hadn't quite decided what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't know what to do. I actually didn't know that jobs existed in sports and sports marketing.

00:03:33:23 - 00:04:01:01 Jacquie I knew very little about that aspect of the business, but I knew what I loved to do. So I went from out west, came back to Toronto, had very, very fortunate opportunities to work at some of the best sports marketing agencies in the country - Lang and Associates, MacLaren Momentum. And then one day I received a call where there was a six month contract available at RBC to work on the Olympics. And it was a contract.

00:04:01:02 - 00:04:44:01 Jacquie No, no, necessarily long-term commitment, but I just couldn't resist. So packed my bags, went up the street, ended up at RBC on this contract. Well the contract turned into full- time employment. I ended up staying there for 12 years and really just an incredible experience. I had Olympics as part of my portfolio the whole time. I did some other things community marketing, product marketing, RBC Foundation, but really the largest thing I did and the most exciting thing that I got to do with my team there, was to write the business case to acquire the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games sponsorship, and then to launch the marketing activities around that, the Olympic torch

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:11:18 Jacquie relay, taking that across the country from coast to coast to coast. And we really enjoyed our time on that portfolio and really drove really incredible business and brand results for the organization. So really, really proud of that effort and what a journey it was. So I was loving my time at RBC and then got a call about this wonderful opportunity at Scotiabank to go over and be the Vice President of Sponsorship, Partnerships and Philanthropy.

00:05:11:18 - 00:05:33:15 Jacquie So I did a few different things there. I worked on the Scene program there, philanthropy portfolio, and then ultimately, pretty much the last thing I did before I left was work on the Scotiabank Arena deal, which again, really tapped into my experience having been at RBC in terms of how to write a business case for a very large marketing investment. And so we put the business case together,

00:05:33:20 - 00:06:06:17 Jacquie we pitched for the rights and and the rest is history, as they say. So really proud also of that. So again, enjoying my time. And then was offered the opportunity to come over to the Canadian Olympic Committee. And based on everything I've just said in my background, I think it's pretty obvious why I said, absolutely, I'm coming. So I came over in 2019 as the Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee, and that means my team really oversees the marketing partnerships, digital, brand marketing events, sustainability and business development.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:41:01 Jacquie So we're responsible for for driving all of the sponsorship and the revenue for the organization. So started that in 2019 and then in 2021 was then offered, additionally, the opportunity to take on a CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. So I have both jobs. I love absolutely everything I do. I really, it's been a wonderful journey and I think hopefully it helps to sort of illustrate just really following your passion and how my passion for sports is really connected with, you know, my interests around marketing and being really purpose-led to make sure that the work I do is mission-driven and really makes an impact in Canada.

00:06:41:01 - 00:06:45:16 Jacquie So really, that's how I got here and it's been a pretty amazing journey.

00:06:45:18 - 00:07:11:00 Alison That really is a remarkable journey. And I also love the fact that you took a bet on yourself and what it led to, like leaving a full time job not just for a contract, but for six month contract and look at the reward. And that's such a great lesson for everyone listening at any stage in our career. So the Canadian Olympic Committee plays a crucial role in supporting Team Canada's athletes, as well as working with sponsors to create impactful marketing campaigns.

00:07:11:00 - 00:07:23:21 Alison And you clearly have been on the other side of that as a sponsor with really strong business results. I'd love you to walk us through how the COC collaborates with its marketing partners to drive their business schools, while also advancing the Olympic movement.

00:07:23:23 - 00:07:41:22 Jacquie We're really proud of this work, really proud of the marketing partners that we get to collaborate with every day. I mean, I think what's really important to point out and not many people know this, is that the Canadian Olympic Committee is largely privately funded. And what I mean by that is the majority of the revenue that comes into the organization,

00:07:41:22 - 00:08:05:09 Jacquie the overwhelming majority, is from our marketing partners, our sponsors. And so they sponsor our organization, we provide marketing rights, etc., and ultimately, what's also important to point out is as a not-for-profit, the majority of the dollars that came in from our marketing partners go right back as an investment into the sports system. And so it's a, it's a really important relationship

00:08:05:09 - 00:08:27:16 Jacquie we have with our marketing partners. And we're proud of our marketing partner family. These are the top brands in Canada. We are in very good company, whether that be RBC, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Bell, Sobeys, Air Canada, Petro Canada, the list goes on and on. And these are not only top brands in Canada, they're a pleasure to work with.

00:08:27:16 - 00:09:01:00 Jacquie They're also the top marketers in Canada. So it's an interesting relationship because again, they're playing a key role in strengthening the sport system and supporting our Olympic athletes, while at the same time they have access to a really unique marketing platform. The Canadian Olympic Committee is the number one national sports property in Canada. And what drives that is that we have incredible reach - 75% of Canadians engage with Team Canada and the Canadian Committee throughout the games.

00:09:01:00 - 00:09:28:05 Jacquie They engage many ways, but in particular through broadcast and digital. So our property provides an exclusive and a universal platform. And when I say that exclusive, I mean that when you come on the Canadian Olympic Committee as a partner, you're exclusive in that category. So you absolutely own it relative to your competitors. So you've got this point of distinction and then it's universal because again, 75% of Canadians are actively engaged with Team Canada.

00:09:28:07 - 00:09:58:23 Jacquie And so it really is an interesting platform that has this massive reach. And it connects Canadian's passions with a greater purpose. And, you know, that's all about investing in Olympians on their journey to the podium. A big part of our mission is focused on our purpose, and our purpose is to transform Canada through the power of sport. So we're super fortunate to, again, have these partners that are aligned with our values and really embrace our mission.

00:09:58:23 - 00:10:22:00 Jacquie And I mean, the list is long. I can highlight, certainly I'm very proud of, I'm wearing it today, Lululemon our partner. So they are responsible for the team Canada Lululemon kit. And what that means, it's what the athletes wear when they go to games. And so we launched that kid on April 16th. And it's a kit that's arrived in store on April 16th and online,

00:10:22:04 - 00:10:41:20 Jacquie but it took years to get there. The... everything that the athletes wear, the Lululemon works with the athletes individually and with a few different athletes to figure out what clothing is best serving their needs when they're at games. I'll just highlight one other because again, the list is long. RBC Training Ground is another really important program.

00:10:42:01 - 00:11:02:08 Jacquie And it's it's much more than a marketing program. They talk about it of course, in their marketing communications, but it's all about identification of athletes who have the potential and investing in those athletes on their journey. So they work directly with the national sporting organizations across the country. It's going into its 10th season, and the success stories go on and on.

00:11:02:08 - 00:11:21:05 Jacquie Whether it be Kelsey Mitchell, Pierce LePage, these are athletes that started an RBC training ground and made it all the way to the Olympic Games and came home with with medals. So there's lots of athletes have gone through the program. We're very, very proud of the program and proud to partner with RBC again to have such an impact on the sport system in Canada.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:32:04 Jacquie So those are just two examples of a very, very long list. But hopefully that helps illustrate how deep our partners go in terms of their investments and building wonderfully engaging marketing programs.

00:11:32:06 - 00:11:58:20 Alison Thanks so much, Jacquie. And I'm very excited, as one of the 75% of Canadians who call ourselves fans of the Olympics, to see the marketing come to life. Now you join the Canadian Olympic Committee in the pandemic. So definitely a unique time to be starting a role. And your first two games had some truly unique challenges as well. So now you're heading into your third Olympics and it will be the first full on Olympics post-pandemic.

00:11:59:02 - 00:12:06:02 Alison I'd love to hear what are you most excited about? And also what's the outlook for Team Canada in Paris?

00:12:06:04 - 00:12:30:13 Jacquie Yes. What a time it's been. And having joined it to your point in in August of 2019 is when I joined, so got to work, I learned a lot, a lot about the business. I kept thinking, oh my gosh, there's just so much to take in here, how am I ever going to learn it all? Then the pandemic hit, and as an organization, we were actually the first organization to to the first country actually indicate that we're just not comfortable sending the athletes to the games.

00:12:30:13 - 00:12:50:19 Jacquie The athletes themselves are not comfortable. They're much more concerned with ensuring their communities and their country is safe and healthy. So looking back, Tokyo and Beijing, both games in the Covid context and then they were back to back. So the game should have been in 2020 and 2022. And they were in fact 2021 and then 2022 literally like however many months later?

00:12:50:21 - 00:13:18:06 Jacquie So it was quite something. Summer and Winter games, you know the resilience of these athletes just incredible. You know, coming from the most adverse conditions, no training conditions. The, you know, the women and the men couldn't even get in the pool. Unless they had a pool in their backyard, there was no training happening for days and days and days and months and in other areas of the world, there was and so these athletes just persevered through and they performed so well.

00:13:18:07 - 00:13:47:18 Jacquie And so the results are something for all Canadians to be really, really proud of and for Tokyo for example, 24 medals, which is one of our best ever and really looking to eclipse that this year in Paris. And, you know, another part that I really do like to talk about, and really important part of the story is that of the medals won in Tokyo and Beijing, in Tokyo, 75% of the medals won for Canadians were women, for Beijing, 55%.

00:13:48:00 - 00:14:07:14 Jacquie And this is unprecedented. This is just really something to be proud of. And, you know, as a result of all of that, is these women incredibly inspiring that what we saw was increased fan engagement with women athletes and women's sports overall, and that that's through our channels. And, you know, I think that's really important, it's certainly very relevant today.

00:14:07:14 - 00:14:39:03 Jacquie There's lots of discussion about women and sports and and investing in women in sports and celebrating their successes. And we've put female athletes front and centre in our brand, marketing. We tell their stories. We tell their stories through our digital channels. And we've really seen female athletes become the face of of Team Canada and among other sport properties in Canada and, you know, importantly, when we talk about the business of sport, in the business of investing in women in sport, these women have signed lucrative sponsorship deals.

00:14:39:03 - 00:15:07:22 Jacquie This is a virtuous circle. So ultimately investing in women's sport drives on-field success, which drives viewership, inspiration, audience and drives participation. I'm inspired by these athletes. I start to participate. That drives brand value for these marketing partners that I'm talking about, which then leads back to partnership investment, which drives back to investing in women in sports. So we've really proven the model that by investing in women over the years,

00:15:07:22 - 00:15:27:15 Jacquie for Team Canada, it's absolutely driving results in all aspects of of the virtuous circle. So something to be proud of. and so, you know, we're doing women have done well. Men have done well as well. There's so many incredible athletes to get excited about for Paris and lots of good stories, you know. So it's it's hard to pick who to talk about.

00:15:27:15 - 00:15:46:12 Jacquie I'll highlight just a few that I'm excited to watch in Paris. So of course Summer McIntosh in the pool, Maggie MacNeil, Penny Oleksiak, Josh Lindo. So there's a tremendous amount of Team Canada strength in the pool this year. Women's three-on-three basketball. This is new to the games. And the Canadian team is number one in the world.

00:15:46:12 - 00:16:10:00 Jacquie I think right now. The NBA players are going to be dominating men's basketball. So that's definitely something exciting to watch. Breaking as they call it, which is breakdancing is new to the Paris Olympic Games. And Phil Wizard, a Canadian, is number one in the world right now. Skylar Park in tae kwon do. She's amazing to watch. Andre De Grasse is always a fan favourite, so can't wait to see him in the 100 metre.

00:16:10:02 - 00:16:20:04 Jacquie Melissa and Brandie in beach volleyball. So the list is long and we're looking super strong. And so I'm really, really excited about seeing the athletes perform in Paris.

00:16:20:06 - 00:16:39:17 Alison That's incredible. I did not know the women's stats from the last two games, and you and I have acted on a bunch of levels, including the powerful role in sport in our lives. And I certainly didn't have the number of female role models that Canada is producing today. And we think about the the short term and the long term positive ripples of that.

00:16:39:17 - 00:16:49:05 Alison It's incredibly inspiring. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I didn't realize breaking had made it into the Olympic sport. So you've giving me something else to tune in to to.

00:16:49:06 - 00:17:13:16 Jacquie Absolutely. And maybe I'll just touch a little bit on our marketing campaign while we're at it, because Phil Wizard is in our brand marketing campaign this year. So every Olympic Games year, the Canadian Olympic Committee launches a brand campaign. We do consider our job to to really be first in the market from a marketing perspective, set the stage for the narrative around the games that are upcoming so that our marketing partners, when they start to launch their campaigns, they don't have to do the heavy lifting.

00:17:13:16 - 00:17:34:11 Jacquie We've already set the stage. And so we did launch our campaign halfway through April. And, you'll see Phil Wizard in there, Skyler Park, as I mentioned. And our so our campaign this year is called Brave is Unbeatable. And ultimately it's a campaign about the obstacles that Team Canada athletes have to overcome to achieve  to achieve greatness.

00:17:34:11 - 00:18:06:08 Jacquie It's about the power of perseverance and commitment. It's about what's inside, and it's about what we don't see that pushes us past our limits towards success and glory. So this campaign showcases Team Canada athletes, all of the various obstacles that they've overcome. And it just really reminds Canadians, remind us, reminds us that we all have our own unique set of obstacles and circumstances and when we overcome them, we can really inspire that next generation and really tap into that sense of bravery.

00:18:06:10 - 00:18:29:12 Jacquie And so, interestingly enough, so we developed the campaign and we thought, wouldn't it be amazing to have voiceover talent of Canadians who, in fact, have also overcome their own obstacles? So we shot for the stars. And we asked Michael J. Fox to be the voiceover for the English campaign and Celine Dion to be the voice of our French campaign.

00:18:29:14 - 00:18:54:03 Jacquie And so lob some calls over and amazing to hear, proud to say, they donated their time to be the voice over talent on our advertising, on our brand campaign. So I think that just speaks to the power of Team Canada. and really just so proud to have that that tie back to, to Canadians to, to really represent that we all have obstacles in our lives and to just be inspired by Michael J.

00:18:54:03 - 00:18:59:09 Jacquie Fox and Celine, in addition to all the athletes, is a campaign we're really, really proud of.

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:05:02 Alison I didn't realize your voiceover talent. That is such a great addition to what will be a very, very powerful campaign.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:06:21 Jacquie Yeah. Thank you.

00:19:06:23 - 00:19:24:09 Alison So, Jacquie, you have two distinct roles within the Canadian Olympic Organization. So as CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation, I'd love you to talk about how the dual role allows you to further advance the foundation's mandate and support Team Canada's success.

00:19:24:11 - 00:19:48:12 Jacquie Thank you for asking that question, because the Canadian Olympic Foundation also plays a very, very key role to your point around the success of the athletes. So the Canadian Olympic Foundation, our job is really we're the philanthropic arm of the Olympic Movement in Canada. So our job is to fundraise for the needs of Team Canada. So we work directly with the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:19:48:15 - 00:20:11:11 Jacquie And I have two jobs, so I work for both. But ultimately our job is to work with them to understand where the funding requirements are. And then we go to the market and we fundraise. And so what's interesting to point out is the Canadian Olympic Foundation is really the opportunity for individual Canadians to get involved. So I mentioned before that marketing partners really drive the business of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

00:20:11:13 - 00:20:42:23 Jacquie While, individual Canadians, real nation builders, those are the people that drive investment in the Canadian Olympic Foundation because we have a joint purpose. We're trying to transform Canada through the power of sport, as I mentioned before, and we are the only foundation in Canada that raises funds to support athletes at all stages of their Olympic journey. And so by working in lockstep with the Canadian Olympic Committee, which is a pretty unique relationship, the way we work together in sport and philanthropy, we focus on four very distinct pillars.

00:20:42:23 - 00:21:01:12 Jacquie One of them is sport excellence. So it's all about ensuring that they have the funding and resources to excel in their sport. One's pathway development. So the pathway to the podium, there very, very many stages on the way there. And how can we help support that in terms of training, competition needs, next generation athletes who are looking for that kind of support.

00:21:01:17 - 00:21:08:17 Jacquie There's athlete and coach enhancements and then there's the Team Canada Impact agenda, which is our social impact platform.

00:21:08:18 - 00:21:22:00 Alison That's great. Now you mentioned the Team Canada Impact agenda. And I know it's a critical part of COC strategy. So I would love you to share more about the Social Impact program and how it comes to life for athletes, as well as for all Canadians.

00:21:22:02 - 00:21:51:09 Jacquie We've always been purpose-led, and we just saw an opportunity to really define that a little bit further and make sure that this investment I've been talking about, whether it be from partners or donors, work as efficiently and as hard as it can to drive impact. and so the Team Canada Impact agenda is our commitment to ensure a safe, inclusive and barrier -free sport system so that more young people play and stay in sport.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:18:18 Jacquie Those two words are very intentional - play and stay. And I say that because it's important that as an organization, we can help inspire access to sport. There are communities that just simply don't have access. And then I say, remember, play and stay. Stay is another intentional word because sometimes young people have an opportunity to enter the sport system, but there are conditions in there that cause them to leave, or there are conditions financially that cause them to leave.

00:22:18:20 - 00:22:54:13 Jacquie So we really are making a commitment to make sure that, so we invest in this area. and so what that means is that we're really going to drill down and ensure that we're creating impact and measuring it. And there are three key areas in which we do that. And they are podium, play and planet. So from a podium perspective, ultimately this is making sure that we help athletes pursue their dreams through a safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports system and that that the podium represents Canadians, that it is diverse and representative of who we are as a nation.

00:22:54:15 - 00:23:16:23 Jacquie From a play perspective, this is very much about inspiring young people to play and stay, so it's about access and creating conditions so that young people want to stay in sport. And the last one is planet. There is no sport that is immune to climate change. And we really, really need to ensure that we're taking a leadership position to preserve our sporting environments.

00:23:17:00 - 00:23:38:21 Jacquie So that's what the Team Canada Impact Agenda is all about. It's about feeding the sport system and achieving impact, and it's about investing in the future of sport in Canada. And so that's what it's all about. It's really, it's it's a social impact agenda. But it's absolutely anchored in the strategy, the business strategy of the Canadian Olympic Committee overall.

00:23:38:21 - 00:23:53:09 Jacquie So you'll see a lot more investment in that area. And you'll see us reporting on results and and seeing how we're doing in terms of driving these results from a podium, play and planet perspective.

00:23:53:11 - 00:24:10:23 Alison That's outstanding. Jacquie, thank you so much for sharing all aspects of that and how it certainly fits within the overall strategy and is a great way to also get more to our country and the athletes. Now, there will be lots of Canadians joining you in Paris for the Games. and there will be lots of us who aren't able to join in person.

00:24:11:00 - 00:24:21:00 Alison So I would love to hear some ways that those of us that won't be enjoying the Games in person can really engage with Team Canada and help support our athletes during Paris.

00:24:21:02 - 00:24:40:15 Jacquie So we host Canada Olympic House in Paris and what that is, it's a home away from home for the athletes, and their families and Canadians and whoever else wants to join us. So the doors are open to the public. You know, there's viewing stations with CBC. We're partnering with CBC and Radio Canada in Canada Olympic House. They'll be live from there every single day.

00:24:40:17 - 00:25:00:00 Jacquie And so, you know, you can come to Canada Olympic House, you can enjoy some Canadian fare. You can engage with some of our marketing partner activations. You can meet some athletes, you can watch the games on TV. And so it's going to be quite, quite a unique experience. And then we have somewhere for athletes and their families to get together and really enjoy the Olympic moment.

00:25:00:01 - 00:25:24:02 Jacquie So that's Canada Olympic House, that's in Paris. Back here in Canada, lots going on? Again, make sure to tune in to CBC Radio-Canada to watch the Games. They're a very important partner of ours. Also wanted to mention Team Canada FanFest. This is new this year. We haven't done this before. But we will be hosting these events in Toronto, Calgary and Montreal rolling over three weekends.

00:25:24:04 - 00:25:45:12 Jacquie And really, Team Canada Fan Fest is about bringing fans together to cheer on Team Canada to celebrate the success of the athletes and create opportunities for connection in your community to to support. And then again, there's always lots of content to engage with, so you can follow Team Canada on social media. Again, please tune in to CBC and Radio-Canada,

00:25:45:12 - 00:26:20:16 Jacquie their coverage. You can engage by making a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation and there's lots of fan engagement opportunities through, checking out our channels for content around schedules and results and Athlete Profiles and deep dives into real time, reactionary content from the Games. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, X, go to Olympic.ca. Download the Team Canada app for lots of lots of interactive opportunities and staying in touch with real time, real time results and then look out for the Brave is Unbeatable campaign.

00:26:20:16 - 00:26:42:21 Jacquie We're really, really proud of that. you'll see interactive ads, digital outdoor print and really hear firsthand from the athletes in terms of how their story is brave, is unbeatable. So and lastly, actually, we're launching a podcast, Team Canada podcast. It's called Momentum. And there you can learn about the stories of some of the women of Team Canada as they head to Paris and hear all about their journey there.

00:26:42:23 - 00:27:03:18 Alison Lots of ways to engage. I'll definitely be, participating in Fan Fest and really appreciate you sharing. And I love the new podcast. I'm a voracious podcast listener, so I will definitely be tuning into Momentum. Now to wrap up our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are really looking to build purpose-driven brands and create meaningful impact through sport.

00:27:03:20 - 00:27:25:05 Jacquie Thank you for that question. You know, I often get asked about advice for marketers and, look, I'm I'm super happy to share. I think you'll see a common thread as I've spoken about today, just really for me, it's it's proven very fruitful to just lean into your passion and your purpose. There are lots of opportunities out there.

00:27:25:06 - 00:27:45:16 Jacquie You just feel like you do a better job when you care, when you're passionate about it, and when you feel like you're making a difference. And I've been very fortunate to have every single job I've ever had, or I had that opportunity. And I'm really, really proud of that. And I think also, if you noticed in my thread, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

00:27:45:17 - 00:28:02:21 Jacquie I went to university, had a great time, taught skiing. That was fun too, but I just kept following my passion and I ended up where I ended up, you know? So not quite the straight path that other people are able to tap in right away. I just didn't know. And I just followed my passion. So I think that's important.

00:28:02:21 - 00:28:26:09 Jacquie I think I'd also say your career is very, very long and don't rush. Just take your time, find what matters to you. And then ultimately, we're all in this together. So be kind, be vulnerable, be curious about other people and the work you're doing. And I know that you'd be very, very proud of the impact you make if you approach your days from that perspective.

00:28:26:11 - 00:28:41:14 Alison That is such great advice. And when you think back to your opening, like being open to trying new things, betting on yourself. You wouldn't have discovered the career you had if you hadn't pursued your passion and then been open to and raising your hand to say sure I'll try that.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:45:21 Jacquie Yeah. Well said Alison. Yeah. Thank you, thank you I really appreciate it. 

00:28:45:21 - 00:29:12:10 Alison Now Jacquie, you've been incredibly generous with your time. You've given us many, many ways to engage with the Paris Olympics and to really cheer on all of our athletes and looking forward to some great medal counts. Also really looking forward to seeing all of the amazing activations and marketing from the CoO, as well as all of your sponsors. You're collectively having an absolutely massive and positive impact on Canada as a country, and certainly Canada from an athletic point of view.

00:29:12:10 - 00:29:14:09 Alison So a sincere thank you.

00:29:14:11 - 00:29:23:06 Jacquie Thank you Alison, it's been my sincere pleasure and looking forward to engaging with Team Canada athletes on July 26th, when the opening ceremony begins.

00:29:23:08 - 00:29:25:23 Alison Perfect. I will be tuning in for that as well.

00:29:26:01 - 00:29:31:23 Jacquie Great. Thank you, Alison.

00:29:32:00 - 00:29:44:15 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes three members of the CMA's CX Council: Alessandra Bisaillon, Director of Marketing and Media Relations at Farm Boy Company Inc., Lesley Haibach EVP, Customer Experience at Ipsos Limited Partnership, and Sue Sharp, Partner and National Lead, Customer Experience Transformation & CMO Advisory at PwC Management Services LLP. Their discussion sheds light on how crucial and influential customer experience has become, why service design plays a critical part and the importance of understanding the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:03 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:05 - 00:00:44:08 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly critical for marketers. Customer experience or it's a continues to play a larger role in marketers scope of responsibilities. It is absolutely essential to understand the tools and frameworks that can help us excel in this area. And one such framework is service design, which we'll be talking a bit about today.

00:00:44:09 - 00:01:14:13 Alison So service design is a powerful approach that helps organizations systematically understand, align, and optimize their resources and processes to enhance both the employee as well as the customer experience. By leveraging service design principles, marketers can create more cohesive, meaningful, and memorable experiences that really drive brand loyalty and ultimately grow businesses. So, to help us navigate this topic, I have three members of our Canadian Marketing Association joining me today.

00:01:14:15 - 00:01:42:18 Alison Lesley Haibach is the EVP, Customer Experience Leader at Ipsos. Alessandra Bisaillon is the head of marketing and media relations at Farmboy Company, Inc., and Susan Sharp is a partner and national lead Customer Experience Transformation and the CMO advisory at PWC. They each bring a unique perspective and a wealth of expertise in both CX and service design. So today is absolutely going to be an illuminating and engaging conversation.

00:01:42:20 - 00:02:03:21 Alison Throughout the discussion, Lesley, Alessandra, and Susan are going to explore why marketing and CX are so tightly intertwined. We'll also talk about what sets organizations that excel at service design apart, and what marketers can do to start embedding service design as a capability within their teams and enterprises. So I'm thrilled to have three talented guests joining us today.

00:02:03:22 - 00:02:07:01 Alison So a big welcome to Lesley, Sue and Alessandra

00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:11 Sue Thanks, Alison.

00:02:08:13 - 00:02:08:23 Lesley Thank you.

00:02:08:23 - 00:02:10:11 Alessandra Thank you.

00:02:10:13 - 00:02:21:12 Alison Now I want to kick things off by asking why our marketing and customer experience so tightly coupled. And how does service design play a role. Lesley why don't you kick us off?

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:57:08 Lesley Sure. That would be great. Thank you. Alison. And this is a very important question. In fact, I'm sure all three of us would strongly agree that CX is one of the most important considerations for an organization and that its importance is often underestimated. It's critical for organizations to understand why marketing and customer experience need to be so intertwined. What we're seeing is more and more consumers interactions with the brand are really driven by their own experiences, and not necessarily marketing initiatives or the advertising of that brand.

00:02:57:10 - 00:03:23:20 Lesley In fact, we know from our own Ipsos research that two thirds of consumers will select a brand based on the experiences they've had and nothing else. And that's almost twice the percentage of any other reason for interacting. Whether that's brand image, word of mouth, social media, and why that is is because customers create their own expectations for brand, and these expectations are based on their own experiences, the marketing they see,

00:03:23:22 - 00:03:49:04 Lesley the advertising from, things they've heard from their friends and family. However, when these customers actually interact with that brand, the experience delivered is either going to meet their expectations, it's going to exceed them, or it's going to fail to meet them. And if a customer's expectations are continually being unmet, their risk of turning to a different brand.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:22:10 Lesley So often organizations, you know, we find do look at brand health and their marketing initiatives and customer experience metrics. But they often do this in isolation of one another. And we find that can be very misleading and really underscores the reason why organizations need to look at them together. And I give you an example of this. We did a study a few years ago in the grocery industry here in Canada, and we designed our study to look at both brand health metrics and key metrics.

00:04:22:12 - 00:04:51:17 Lesley When we initially started looking at this, if we looked at, let's say, two brands in particular, if we just looked at their brand metrics, we have a clear leader based on the amount market share, the attitudinal, equity, brand love all of these things that are important from a marketing perspective. But when we layered in the customer experience metrics, we quickly found that that leading brand was actually on a declining trajectory, and it was the number two brand that was actually in growth mode.

00:04:51:19 - 00:05:13:21 Lesley What was happening was brand number one wasn't delivering the experiences to the level of expectation of their customers. So despite their current market lead, the brand was heading towards a sharp decline. Whereas for the second brand, their experiences were meeting or exceeding expectations and we could see how they were very rapidly picking up market share and were growing.

00:05:13:23 - 00:05:42:23 Lesley So for the first brand, it was important for them to understand how to deliver experiences that would at least meet expectations of their customers. And this is really where service design comes into play. When an organization is not meeting their customers expectations. They need to take the time to evaluate and redesign those experiences so that they can continue to drive customer loyalty and maintain and grow their share of that.

00:05:43:01 - 00:05:59:18 Alison Let's say thank you very much for sharing that in the grocery example. Now, you and I are both have been doing this for a few decades now. So certainly early in my career, marketing and CX wasn't something we talked about a lot in marketing. And if it existed in the companies we were in, it certainly wasn't part of marketing.

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:08:12 Alison So I'd love to hear you share. Like, what do you think has brought those together and made CX a bigger priority for marketers today?

00:06:08:14 - 00:06:31:01 Lesley I think it really comes back to this example that we shared in the fact that if companies are finding this disconnect in their results based on their marketing, and I think as they start to connect the dots and go, well, wait a second, why is my marketing no longer being what's driving people in? And the fact that we now know it's their own experiences has forced a lot of work and ization to really say, you know what?

00:06:31:01 - 00:06:38:06 Lesley There's something here that's disconnecting, and we need to find a way to make sure we are meeting those expectations of our customers.

00:06:38:07 - 00:06:41:23 Alison In many ways, it's an early indicator, early warning system email.

00:06:41:23 - 00:07:09:07 Sue So add to that that you know traditionally is marketers. And then we'll talk more about this a little bit later. But traditionally as marketers we have always been how do we how do we drive demand. Right. And thinking about growth through demand and conversion. But lately and we all know with the economy the way it is, we've had to really kind of pivot into retention.

00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:03 Sue Well, what does retention look like? Retention. There's a resounding element of customer experience through all of your retention capability. Right. So so it is really tightly coupled. And having it sit outside kind of as a standard or somewhere else in an organization, I think puts an organization more at risk. It really does become part of what marketers after.

00:07:33:05 - 00:07:44:15 Alison That's a great add on, Sue, thank you very much. Now I'd like to hear what are organizations that are really excelling at service design. What are they doing differently? Lesley, do you want to kick this off?

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:05:06 Lesley We found that when an organization is optimizing their experiences through service design, we found that they do kind of one of all of these five tips. And they may not realize they're doing these five things exactly the way that they are, but it really is the foundational pieces to making sure that everything comes together. So part of it is research, right?

00:08:05:07 - 00:08:25:14 Lesley Research has to do is to start with the research. But that research also has to evolve. So for example, in my grocery store example you needed a starting point. We needed to understand the circumstance of brand one and brand two. But as we try to redesign those experiences for brand one, you need to be able to have research to help you do that.

00:08:25:14 - 00:08:55:10 Lesley What's working, what's not. And then once you decide to implement whatever's the best solution, you need to continuously monitor that. That's the first one. Second one is alignment of your leadership. This needs to happen across all functions in an organization because we know that while experiences are truly delivered at the front line, if you don't have leadership alignment from the top down, anything new you try is not necessarily going to be successfully implemented and maintained.

00:08:55:12 - 00:09:19:17 Lesley And then there's the operationalization of all these experiences, because it's not enough for the leaders themselves to be aligned on the functions. Customer experience has to focus across all levels of the organization. So whether an organization does regular meetings, other initiatives, huddles, whatever it is, each part of the business has to be accountable for it to some degree and measured on that.

00:09:19:19 - 00:09:47:08 Lesley And we see this often a lot of resistance with organizations that say, but my back office doesn't deal with clients, not directly, perhaps, but they do have internal clients. And all of those things have an impact on your ultimate customer. So making sure the back office is considered as well is critical. And then measurement of ROI, right? If you're delivering the right experiences to your customers, you need to understand the ROI of doing that.

00:09:47:10 - 00:10:10:01 Lesley We like to call it an Ipsos proxy, a return on customer experience investment. But every function in the organization needs to have their own KPIs. And you need to be able to analyze these against CX. So looking at things like what's your return on investment when it comes to brand or NPS or basket size or traffic counts? All of these things can be impact by service delivery.

00:10:10:03 - 00:10:41:03 Lesley And the last one is about sustaining all of this across all functions, and knowing when it's time to step back and reevaluate or treat tweak experiences that you're delivering. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization, these principles can apply in all cases because most organizations have these functions across the business, and it's about creating a CX design and strategy that will go across the entire organization, whether there's 100 employees or 100,000.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:19 Lesley And I think, Alessandra you had an example of this, right?

00:10:43:21 - 00:11:13:15 Alessandra Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of one organization that we discussed that really delivers a consistent and positive experience, its customers is Starbucks. And they have truly mastered all five components of the service design framework, particularly when it comes to operationalizing the experience and also from a sustainability perspective. They also intentionally make the experience of their customers a personal one, whether it's with every order or every visit.

00:11:13:16 - 00:11:35:00 Alessandra And when you do visit a Starbucks, you know the staff is so knowledgeable about every coffee blend menu item. They truly are amazing in terms of executing the personalization of offers, which essentially they've also successfully done through their systems. And Lesley mentioned a little bit about, you know, the backstage, the back office. They do a really great job of that as well.

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:51:05 Alessandra And then of course, there's the data and research component. And, you know, leveraging insights and data to really bring that on to life. So we felt that this was a really good example of one organization that has truly mastered all five components of service design.

00:11:51:07 - 00:11:55:15 Alison Lesley, thank you very much for distilling it down to those five core principles and analysis.

00:11:55:15 - 00:12:15:05 Alison And to bring it to life with an example is great. And it's also a really good segue into the next piece that I want to dig in, which is around data, research and sustainability. So let's dive deeper into research measure and sustain. And why are these are critical ongoing aspects of service design and CX. Sue I'd love you to take the lead on this.

00:12:15:07 - 00:12:42:14 Sue Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I think I'm going to start with a statement that when you think about research, measure and sustain, it's obviously not once and done, it's ongoing. If I start with research, you really need to think about gaining that deep understanding of the customer, your customer across channels, the customer's perception of your brand, their experience with it is critical.

00:12:42:14 - 00:13:12:21 Sue As Lesley pointed out earlier. The key here for us as marketers is to look at the end to end state of the client experience and understanding the highs and the lows of the interactions your client has, whether it's the online channel, the the mobile channel, or the in-person or, you know, your call center. You have to think about how that that customer is interacting with your front line or through the tools that you've enabled for self-service.

00:13:12:23 - 00:13:36:21 Sue And it's this core. It's really core to understanding and prioritizing what problems you need to solve to deliver on your vision. And I like to talk in problems we're solving because to me that's a need. It's a need based way to think about what you need to do to to enable a better customer experience. Just because it's cooling fancy doesn't mean you need to go and do it.

00:13:36:23 - 00:14:03:19 Sue So this understanding and the prioritization of what problems we're solving are will become your benchmark. And through sustain ultimately your guide. Now too often we see clients that they think they know their client experience. They don't want to do the research. They don't want to invest in that. They think that they can act as the client and give them give feedback.

00:14:03:21 - 00:14:30:03 Sue This is a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, and it really holds back the organization from from succeeding in CX and specifically in service design. So your research will help fuel your initiatives and true transforming. And it is the critical element in creating the alignment for your vision across your organization and for helping to sustain and evolve the vision.

00:14:30:05 - 00:15:00:18 Sue So those data points really, really hit home for executives across the board. In service design, we often talk about a service blueprint, the blueprint gives an organization a holistic view of what needs to happen to make your vision work. So we've talked a lot about kind of thinking across the business. And you think about the customer interaction, the middle office layer and interaction and process, the back office process and what technology we need to have in place to support it.

00:15:00:20 - 00:15:30:00 Sue It's a lot, but I think as marketers, we're good leaders, we're good collaborators, and we have a role to play in in this effort to really help drive change and growth through customer experience. So while we might be, as I said earlier, focus on the top of the funnel and demand generation or acquisition, but more and more of us have to start thinking about our efforts, about retention.

00:15:30:02 - 00:16:07:05 Sue So, as Lesley pointed out, it truly impacts customer retention and your brand. And thinking about that churn that happens when we get disappointed by a brand. I think there a research from Gartner saying 32% of people will leave a brand after two bad experiences. So that's truly impactful to if you're thinking about your retention. So we as marketers need to lead in advocating for customers throughout our organizations, representing their voice with our ongoing research and collaborating with our business partners to deliver growth.

00:16:07:07 - 00:16:36:16 Sue So that's kind of the core on the research. We talk about measurement. And and I think about measurement as a way to help prioritize initiatives and demonstrate the impact, of CX. So Lesley, you talked about Roxy. We call it return on experience at PWC, it's when we start to organizations start to achieve their CX vision. You can quickly realize there is a lot to be done.

00:16:36:18 - 00:17:02:01 Sue And just, you know, mentioning the research helps us understand and prioritize the problems we solve at solving. We have to break it down into what service design we call micro journeys. These micro journeys might be prioritized based on potential impact to customers, the impact to your business, and your ability to execute. So really kind of think through where should we be making these investments for change?

00:17:02:03 - 00:17:30:00 Sue The micro journey for each CX initiative. If you should be measuring the current state and then impact of the new or revised design. So you might be measuring or looking at your digital data. It might be saving time on a manual process versus an automated process. It might mean a reduction in errors. So this is really where you bring all of these elements together.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:55:07 Sue Front of the house, middle of house, back of the house to see how that change can actually impact your business over time. You use these measurements to test and learn and you refine your micro journey. And it's so important because understanding all these components will help demonstrate the impact of cost to the organization and leadership, and start to create some momentum.

00:17:55:09 - 00:18:20:20 Sue This is where sustain really comes in. Think about how you consistently research through voice of customer programs, taking learnings to not only improve on your CX, but also your operations, your products, and your services. This is key information that needs to be shared throughout the organization to enable change. And I think this is where marketers can really shine.

00:18:20:22 - 00:18:46:12 Alison Sue, thank you so much. You shared so much great advice. You also highlighted just because it's cool and shiny doesn't mean you need to do it. And then you also calling out the mission critical role that research can play in helping both understand and then prioritize. What are the problems we're solving? We're always challenge for where to make the investment from a marketing perspective, and that's a really important call out.

00:18:46:14 - 00:19:12:02 Alison And then you also acknowledging that as marketers, we're definitely good leaders or good collaborators. I would add to that we're great storytellers, so we're able to help the organizations understand why CX is such a mission critical. Part of what we're doing. So now, I would love to turn it over to you, Alessandra, to share how service design can help fuel alignment within organizations.

00:19:12:04 - 00:19:39:09 Alessandra That's a really great question, and thank you. Based on the five touchpoints that we discussed, I do believe that without alignment within your organization, the other pieces of the framework will fall apart. This is so critical. And we know that service design can help organizations achieve a best in class customer experience and their business objectives. However, CX is not the responsibility of just one.

00:19:39:09 - 00:20:17:00 Alessandra So function. And Lesley alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion. All departments across the organization really need to prioritize CX and be measured against it. as we discussed. And this really does require senior leadership alignment of all functions. So whether it's marketing, sales, finance, procurement, category management, operations, customer service or IT, the list goes on, all functions of the business really need to have CX as a key business priority, and they need to keep it aligned with constant focus.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:37:23 Alessandra So I'll give an example. from a grocery industry perspective, at Farm Boy, we actually have a customer experience committee that consists of various leads from different functions. And really this is to ensure that CX is always top of mind. And at the end of the day, it truly is the heart of everything we do at Farm Boy.

00:20:38:01 - 00:21:00:10 Alessandra And a priority for all of our departments. So what we have our monthly CX meetings that actually take place whereby we discuss processes, procedures, all of that is reviewed, including any customer comments or feedback that comes in from our customer service department. So that as a as a committee, we can further understand, you know, what are the deficiencies?

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:29:02 Alessandra Are there gaps that need to be addressed? And oftentimes, even if they're not these monthly focused discussions, when we're reviewing procedures, they actually expose weak links and misalignment if there is. And that really allows the committee to also devise collaborative and cross-functional solutions. On the other hand, you know, if you take a larger enterprise like a bank, it's really important to think across the lines of business.

00:21:29:02 - 00:21:47:17 Alessandra So beyond just functions or departments in order to keep CX top of mind. So working horizontally across the organization. And so how would a large organization do that successfully while setting up a governance structure in a larger organization? That's obviously going to involve a lot.

00:21:47:17 - 00:21:48:04 Alessandra More team members

00:21:48:18 - 00:22:14:01 Alessandra and different lines of business. And that magnitude is going to vary by organization, but really setting up a disciplined cadence of whether it's CX meetings, ensuring that CX is layered into the businesses scorecard is so critical. We mentioned this earlier from a measurement perspective. You know, it's vital in order for the service design framework to be successful, that those KPIs are embedded.

00:22:14:03 - 00:22:25:00 Alessandra So for larger organizations, you may actually need both a working committee and a steer co to be set up for success and work horizontally across the organization.

00:22:25:02 - 00:22:38:07 Alison Thanks, Alessandra. Your found by example really is an illuminating one, and it's also a great way on a monthly basis to ensure that the customer voice is front and center, not just for marketing, but across the organization.

00:22:38:07 - 00:22:52:14 Alison So I really love that example. Now, Lesley, I'd love to turn it back to you to share what organizations should be considering when they're starting to embed service design as a capability, especially in larger enterprises.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:24:03 Lesley Great. Thank you. Allison. It's a great question. But when you think about a larger organization, in particular an organization that has hundreds or thousands of locations, how can you actually guarantee a consistent experience at every touchpoint? So using service design, you can create customer centric journey maps. You can make sure that you improve all of your user experiences online and in mobile apps, and you need to be able to use it to think about an omnichannel experience versus what often is a multi-channel experience, right?

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:50:05 Lesley So you need that seamlessness across every touchpoint that a customer can interact with you. So these things can all help you to ensure you've got that consistency across all of your interactions. I want to kind of bring this to life with an example. We once had a client who, in their call center, used our service design approach to improve the experiences of their live agent interactions on their telephone banking center.

00:23:50:07 - 00:23:58:19 Lesley We started by identifying all of the pain points, and once we done that, as well as the ideal experience that their clients were looking for, we were able.

00:23:58:19 - 00:23:59:08 Sue To.

00:23:59:10 - 00:24:21:16 Lesley Help them create and develop the new way that the experiences should look. But there was more to it than that, because it's one thing to just say, we're going to redesign our experience, but what impact does that have on all other parts of the organization? So we had to include training to bring in, you know, new training documents of how the process was going to be designed and executed.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:40:14 Lesley We had to bring in hiring teams to be able to say, how do you ensure that you're bringing new people into the company who can actually fulfill and deliver on those new experiences? And it meant that you also had to be able to redo all of your process maps and make sure that everyone was aligned in that consistent experience.

00:24:40:16 - 00:25:09:01 Lesley So all of these things just emphasize the point that, you know, making the service design encompass all of your functions within an organization is really critical to its success. And of course, though with larger organizations, it also means there are more people to impact greater complexity across all functions. So you have to have that right governance structure, and it has to be inclusive of all stakeholders across all business functions.

00:25:09:01 - 00:25:42:07 Lesley And Alessandra mentioned here. You know, some companies will have a governance structure that includes a steer co and a working committee. Those are some of the things you need to make sure you incorporate, to make sure that your experiences are seamless and that your decision making processes are also aligned and also seamless. So, you know, making sure that everyone in your organization has their eye on CX and the design of the experiences and services will lead to improved customer loyalty and just overall better business success.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:05:23 Alison Sue. Lesley and Alessandra, I really want to thank you. This has been a very robust and very action oriented conversation around CX, so marketers, regardless of where they are in their journey in embedding CX into their marketing work. We'll actually have some really great takeaways. Before I let you go on with your workdays. You each have really terrific and varied experience and certainly enviable careers.

00:26:06:01 - 00:26:14:02 Alison So I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners. And, Alessandra, I'd love you to kick us off.

00:26:14:04 - 00:26:30:11 Alessandra Sure. One piece of advice I'd like to give is, is for marketers to always remain curious and not be afraid to really test and learn new tactics with your teams or with your agency partners in order to ensure that you're really providing that exceptional experience for your customers.

00:26:30:11 - 00:26:59:14 Alessandra Each and every time, it's that consistency that is key that we talked about, especially because the landscape of marketing and retail overall is changing so rapidly. We need to continue to evolve. We have to stay relevant and test and learn. And you know, you may not always get it right. And that's okay. But the learnings and the rewards that actually come out of innovative pilots through testing and learning can oftentimes result in significant returns for organizations.

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:05:20 Alessandra And at the same time, you're successfully fostering innovation and creativity for your marketing team.

00:27:05:22 - 00:27:07:20 Alison Thanks. I'm going to turn it over to Lesley.

00:27:07:22 - 00:27:35:14 Lesley So I think we see our world rapidly changing with new technology and AI, but even though that despite that change, some things are just going to remain the same. We can't, as part of that, forget human intelligence. Customers want us to provide experiences that they can trust. They want to feel they're valued, and they want to feel that both the organization and its employees empathize with their unique circumstances.

00:27:35:15 - 00:27:50:22 Lesley And so how we can show that we value those customers, how we build trust and how we show our empathetic human side might change with technology. The need for these things is going to remain.

00:27:51:00 - 00:28:02:12 Alison You're absolutely right there. The fundamentals of what we do aren't changing, but the how we do them certainly is evolving. And that's terrific advice. So Sue, I'm going to hand it over to you to close our discussion today.

00:28:02:14 - 00:28:29:08 Sue Absolutely. Thanks. So I mean, a large part of this has been focus on service design. And when you think about that, it's about creating exceptional customer experiences by improving both tangible and intangible services. And it could be interactions processes, communications. And when you think kind of underneath that, it aligns with what we would call user centered design or user centric thinking.

00:28:29:10 - 00:29:00:07 Sue and aims to enhance both your customer satisfaction and your business outcomes. So my I have three points. So point number one to that end is really involve user throughout the process. If you're jumping into service design. And frankly kind of what Alessandra was saying is be curious about your customers throughout any process. Meet real world needs and expectations of your customers and your frontline staff.

00:29:00:10 - 00:29:27:12 Sue Engage with them. Learn from them, and really ask a lot of questions. But don't just ask them once. Ask them throughout your design process. Second point is really collaborate. Collaborate. Collaborate. We mentioned it earlier. Service design can't be done in one functional area alone. It takes a village lead from the customer's viewpoint and share your insights. I think marketing's really positioned well to do that.

00:29:27:14 - 00:30:01:22 Sue And then lastly finally is start small but think big. Start with a pilot project or specific touchpoints and gradually with successful Roxy or rocks in hand, expand to larger service improvements. And this will help you to minimize risk as you start out your journey and also to to start building momentum. And I think, you know, to your point early around the Starbucks journey into personalization, they started small and they grew and scaled.

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:06:14 Sue And that's I think ultimately where we want to go. But you got to start small.

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:22:14 Alison That is absolutely terrific advice from the three of you to end on. And our listeners, if they take that and start actioning it in the days and months ahead, they will absolutely get even stronger at their craft. So many thanks to the three of you for a really robust and terrific discussion.

00:30:22:16 - 00:30:24:07 Sue Thank you for having us. Yes.

00:30:24:07 - 00:30:24:16 Lesley Thank you.

00:30:24:17 - 00:30:31:07 Alessandra Thank you for having us.

00:30:31:09 - 00:30:43:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores balancing brand building and performance marketing with Vivianne Gauci, SVP of Consumer Experience and CMO at HomeEquity Bank. Vivianne advocates for the importance of data-driven decision-making and collaboration between brand and performance marketers to appreciate each other's value in the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:14:15 - 00:00:22:12 Presenter With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:45:18 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most significant challenges that's facing marketers today. Finding the optimal balance between brand building and performance marketing. It's definitely been a debate that's been going on for many, many years with passionate advocates on both sides. But what if the answer lies not in choosing one over the other, but really and strategically blending the two?

00:00:45:20 - 00:01:05:22 Alison Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vivianne Gauci join us for an insightful conversation around finding the right balance between brand building and performance marketing. Vivianne is a Senior Vice President of Consumer Experience and Chief Marketing Officer at Home Equity Bank, where she's been leading the charge in driving business growth through a strategic blend of brand and performance marketing initiatives.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:27:06 Alison So Vivianne is going to bring you some very real world advice and some lessons from going through the journey herself. Vivianne's worked with two global and Canadian brands, including American Express, Aviva and now Home Equity Bank. So she's bringing a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the table. She's also really known for her data-driven approach,

00:01:27:10 - 00:01:35:16 Alison her ability to rally teams around a common vision and her unwavering focus on the customer experience. Welcome, Vivianne. I'm thrilled that you're here.

00:01:35:18 - 00:01:39:00 Vivianne Thanks for having me, Alison. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:49:12 Alison I want to kick things off now with the question around, why, in your mind, has the balance between brand and performance marketing been a persistent pain point for marketers?

00:01:49:14 - 00:02:26:22 Vivianne This is such an interesting question, and I think it's because there is no right answer in terms of what the right balance is. Because there's incredible value to both, and the right balance can be different depending on the industry, on the company objectives, on the stage of growth of your company. And so if you talk to different types of marketers, you'll get different perspectives on the value of their particular discipline and the challenges inherent with the other type of discipline.

00:02:26:23 - 00:02:50:06 Vivianne So if you speak to a brand marketer, they might believe that short-term activation performance-based marketing can be a bad thing that erodes brand equity. Or it can even erode margins. And then if you talk to performance-based marketers, you'll find that they sometimes think that, you know, I can't draw the direct line between brand and results.

00:02:50:06 - 00:03:07:08 Vivianne And, you know, that's what I'm used to. And as so often happens in these types of debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in that there's value to both, and both short term and longer term marketing is important.

00:03:07:10 - 00:03:29:19 Alison That's such a great perspective and you're so right that there's value in both. But if you've grown up in one side or the other, it tends to actually feed the combativeness or the commitment to either brand or performance marketing. And in my experience, and often it's because if they don't have experience doing the other thing, they don't appreciate what it can deliver on how the two can necessarily work together.

00:03:29:21 - 00:03:55:17 Vivianne And, you know, for us, I think part of it is having these two types of marketers working closely together so that they can actually start to see the value in each other's practices. In fact, in one role in particular in my organization, and this is somebody who deals with communications and television as a channel specifically, they do both brand and performance.

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:19:04 Vivianne So, you know, they really get an appreciation for the value of both. But what you end up seeing is that the closer they work together, the more they understand the value in how they interact as part of the customer journey and as part of the funnel. So they actually start to see, oh, okay, so brand creates this emotional connection and creates this affinity.

00:04:19:06 - 00:04:50:12 Vivianne And then the performance marketer picks that up and picks up at that point in the journey and starts driving the customer touchpoint and driving immediate action. So you see the brand marketer triggers the emotional response, and the performance marketer triggers the action. They're both incredibly important because they're part of a continuous journey. So if you can get them working closely together, they'll understand the value of each discipline.

00:04:50:13 - 00:05:15:04 Alison I love that example in seeing the light bulbs go off from where people that are representing different points of view, and instead of feeling like they're competing for the marketing dollars, really starting to collaborate and understand that they're complementing one another and that can build to a much greater outcome than doing it just one way. So as a CMO, how do you ensure that your marketing efforts are directly contributing to the overall growth of your business?

00:05:15:06 - 00:05:38:22 Vivianne I see everything about my job as driving the overall growth of the business. And really, the first point is to understand the customer better than anyone else around the table and providing the insight that is needed to speak to them and ensuring that we're driving value to the customer. Because without starting, without driving value to the customer, you really don't have a business.

00:05:39:00 - 00:05:45:13 Vivianne So that's the first point. That's a key power, superpower, shall we say, of the of the Chief Marketing Officer.

00:05:45:15 - 00:06:06:07 Alison I totally agree that that's actually one of our superpowers. And it sounds so simple when you say it, but it can be harder to bring it to life. So as you're sitting around your executive table, really understanding your consumer to a greater degree than your colleagues possibly can, I'd love you to share a couple of examples of how you've helped them,

00:06:06:13 - 00:06:21:22 Alison the lights go off for them and the value that you can bring, whether it's on the product side or the bank delivery side, or even on the HR side, by  really understanding and enlightening them with knowledge of who you're ultimately trying to attract and retain.

00:06:22:00 - 00:06:48:03 Vivianne So I saw that you, and I heard with great interest, the fact that you interviewed Raja Rajamannar from Mastercard a little while ago. And I love his point. He talks about the CMO as having to evangelize for marketing and drive credibility for the function in the organization. And really, it comes down to the ability for a marketer to use data.

00:06:48:05 - 00:07:21:10 Vivianne Data is going to be your best friend. In performance, it will give you the ability to drive the additional investment warranted. Your'll be able to prove your ability to drive performance, obviously, and then a brand, you'll use it to be able to determine what your brand activities drive in terms of behaviours. And so once you start making the connection between this brand activity drives this type of behaviour, you then have to be disciplined about tracking and presenting the data to your senior stakeholders.

00:07:21:12 - 00:07:48:16 Vivianne So really it's about making sure that data is pulled in to be able to support what you're trying to drive in terms of the overall growth of the organization. And then I guess the other key piece in here is the part where we talk about customer experience. And for me, I love the fact that our organization, customer experience falls under the umbrella of marketing.

00:07:48:18 - 00:08:23:07 Vivianne Because when you think about it, customer experience has three key elements. I like to think of it as discovery, design, and delivery. And in discovery, you're listening to your customer and understanding them deeply. Again, back to the CMO superpower of understanding the customer better than anyone else. What needs are not being met? How does the brand resonate? And so you really have this incredible power, being integral or having the customer experience side of the equation under your wings to make sure that you can understand that very deeply.

00:08:23:09 - 00:08:46:13 Vivianne And then the elements of design and delivery is important because you can build an incredible marketing program, but if you can't deliver on the customer side of the equation, then you can waste a lot of resources. And you have to understand the journey that customers are taking. And it starts with their first interaction with the brand. It doesn't start necessarily, even on your website.

00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:18 Vivianne It starts with potentially something that they see out in the market in terms of a brand ad and then the next touchpoint might be a piece of your performance marketing, and then they start to engage with you in the organization. And so what happens there? Maybe there's a nurturing experience and then fulfillment and loyalty. So if you start to see that it's all part of the funnel, you can see how also the elements are so integrated.

00:09:13:19 - 00:09:39:13 Alison I really like how you distilled it down to discover, design and deliver. It really helps keep you grounded as you're immersed in all aspects of that. So, Vivianne, I'd love to hear about your experience advocating for brand investment at Home Equity Bank and to walk us through that journey. I know from our earlier discussion it wasn't quick, as these things tend not to be, and there are inevitable sort of pivots and bumps along the road.

00:09:39:19 - 00:09:57:10 Alison But to really understand how you got your own team on board, what were some of the challenges that you faced when making the case to the executive leadership team? And you also were doing this in a time where the economy was a little bit challenged, which would have added a whole other level of difficulty, I suspect, to what you successfully delivered.

00:09:57:12 - 00:10:22:12 Vivianne Getting, you asked about the team, and getting the team on board was probably the easiest thing, the immediate team, because when you're predominantly a performance-based marketing organization, as we used to be, you know, you can actually start to see and feel where your performance marketing starts to get a bit sluggish. And you start to immediately think, oh, I've got to start thinking longer term, I, I have to start thinking, fill the top of that funnel.

00:10:22:14 - 00:10:52:07 Vivianne So, you know, that's an interesting part of the equation because as performance marketers, you're seeing that very immediately and you're measuring that. You're seeing very quickly that you need to start thinking differently. And we didn't have it quite then yet. But we were also thinking, okay. And down the line we might have potential competitors. And so how do you start creating that moat to help protect us against any potential incursions?

00:10:52:09 - 00:11:15:04 Vivianne So from there, you know, the good news was that there was broad recognition that thinking about brand would be good for the company, that we needed a bit of a refresh and we needed to think longer term. So that helped. But, you know, I won't lie. We, we stumbled when we came out with our new brand. We shortchanged ourselves a bit.

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:39:13 Vivianne And so to create the splash that we wanted in brand, we slowed down on our performance investment. And this actually hurt us. And so we we actually had to retrench. So we had a bit of a learning, learning exercise. We took a pause. We got everything back to where it needed to be. And then we said, okay, let's explore what happened, because this is a learning, right.

00:11:39:14 - 00:12:10:00 Vivianne So we we went in and we started analyzing all the data. And this is where I found what I considered to be another one of our marketing heroes, which is Binet and Field. The Long and the Short Of It. It's a famous study, and I was able to use that to help illustrate what actually happened to us. And that, yes, we had some short term negative impacts which, believe it or not, actually helped solidify our performance marketing investment because I was like, okay, we can't do that again.

00:12:10:01 - 00:12:27:23 Vivianne I said, no, we can't do that again. But because of the analysis and we were able to kind of isolate, this is what happened when we were, you know, primarily brand. And this is what happens when we have a combination. And this is what happens when we are only performance. I was able to show them some of the green shoots.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:56:01 Vivianne Of course, brand takes longer, but I was able to show some of the green shoots of where brand was starting to help us make a difference, both qualitatively and quantitatively. So,  and again, it's back to those the, you know, thinking about what are the key metrics that brand investment helps to drive that aren't necessarily, you know, fully fleshed out and tied to the end result, but they are critical to starting getting the funnel going.

00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:09 Vivianne And so I showed research that just talked not about just sales results, but also about the company values, the other thing that I would say. So I tried to elevate the discussion that it wasn't just about our short term results, it was about some longer medium term results. And then I elevated it even further to talk about the overall value to the company

00:13:16:09 - 00:13:31:03 Vivianne as a company. So the fact that brand investment could actually drive company value, and that's where I think it started to really resonate. So I think that third element of bringing it up to a higher level also helped.

00:13:31:05 - 00:13:51:11 Alison Thank you for being so open and sharing some of the challenges that you managed through in a time like that, especially in an organization that had really depend depending on performance marketing and you were driving change to also bring brand to it, knowing the long term benefits of that, for sure, when it doesn't work fresh out of the gate, it certainly test your resolve.

00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:12 Alison I loved how you sort of retrenched and pivoted and used research and data, and also your knowledge around the green sprouts. Like you did see some early wins and some reasons to believe and stay committed to it. But clearly you leveraged very powerfully in convincing the rest of the organization. So kudos to you, because I know that's definitely not easy work.

00:14:13:14 - 00:14:30:06 Alison Now, speaking of challenges, I also know that the pandemic forced many marketing plans to change course and you were not immune. So can you share an example of how you had to adapt your brand messaging in response to how Canadian consumer needs were changing, and as well as their sentiments during that time.

00:14:30:08 - 00:14:54:16 Vivianne We'd probably been less than a year into our renewed level of brand investment after I had to make the case to get that brand investment back and and all of a sudden, March 2020 hit. And so we were at the time, we were showing an ad. It was our, I call it the sprinkler ad that for those of you who aren't familiar, this is for our product, the CHIP Reverse Mortgage.

00:14:54:18 - 00:15:16:19 Vivianne But it was a brand ad, and it was one of the ads that showed a real estate agent coming to a couple in our demographic that we like to say age 55 and better. And, you know, it was, you know, she was coming knocking once again to see if they were ready to sell their home. And so the wife says, oh, boy, here comes that real estate agent again.

00:15:16:19 - 00:15:43:15 Vivianne And husband says, don't worry, I got this. And you know, he basically clicks on a clicker and it turns on the sprinklers and he soaks the real estate agent. And so the couple has a chuckle and, and it's you know, it's all in great fun. And up until that time, and it was it's funny, that ad resonated so well because usually our audience in other ads, not ours, but in other ads in the media, we did a study.

00:15:43:17 - 00:16:07:17 Vivianne What we saw was our audience, our our demographic of age 55 and better is often the butt of the jokes, is often the target of the jokes. Right? And believe it or not, you know, they're treated in a very patronizing way. They're minimized. And in this case, they were the ones in, in on the joke. Right? They were making the joke.

00:16:07:17 - 00:16:30:05 Vivianne So so that, you know, that was really empowering and resonated so well with our audience. And we got like, maybe 1 or 2 complaints from real estate agents when we first aired the ad and, you know, we said, okay, well, we understand, you know, we get it. The joke was on them, but then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down at home.

00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:06 Vivianne Everyone was feeling a little bit more sensitive, anxious and, you know, some very real emotions close to the surface. And now all of a sudden, we started getting complaints from our customers. And, you know, that maybe, maybe we were being a bit mean to the poor real estate agent. And so we realized, okay, you know, and again, another great reason why it's good to have CX close to the organization.

00:16:55:06 - 00:17:19:03 Vivianne We were hearing this directly from our contact centre, which reported to me. And, you know, we said, okay, maybe it's time we have to stop these ads and pivot. And when we did that, we went to our agency, Zulu Alpha Kilo. And they were able to help us pivot quite quickly with some user-generated content around the theme of, you know, very relevant at the time,

00:17:19:03 - 00:17:37:18 Vivianne Home is Everything. Because everybody was at home at the time and it was, you know, we were able to get those ads out in record time and those tested incredibly well and did really well for us as well, because it was the right message for the time. And people were were happy to hear it.

00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:00 Alison Vivianne, that's a great example. It's also a great example of how quickly consumer sentiment can change certainly when there's a compelling event like a pandemic, and the way that you were able to once again pivot and really draw on an insight that was also a result of the pandemic where Home is Everything so quickly, really is powerful. I also have to say, I love that - 55 and better.

00:18:00:05 - 00:18:04:02 Alison I'm gonna definitely be using that.

00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:06 Vivianne We get we get a lot of, compliments on that, actually.

00:18:08:08 - 00:18:11:18 Alison It's very true. That's a mindset we should all embrace.

00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:02 Vivianne Absolutely.

00:18:13:04 - 00:18:30:18 Alison So how important is it to have the CEO's buy in on marketing as being a key driver of business strategy, and as someone with a performance marketing background, how did you go about establishing trust and credibility with the C-suite before advocating for the brand investments that you were able to successfully sell through.

00:18:30:20 - 00:19:03:18 Vivianne Getting the CEO on board is everything. There was actually a recent McKinsey study that said that CEOs who place marketing at the core of their growth strategies are twice as likely as their peers to have greater than 5% annual growth. So you can see that making sure that marketing is at the core of the strategy for the CEO, that it's important for driving results for the organization.  But it's our responsibility as marketers, as a CMO, to get the CEO on board.

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:29:03 Vivianne So I was very fortunate to have both an existing CEO and a CFO who had believed in the power of effective marketing, and it really just started with showing the discipline we had with our performance investments and being able to show consistently over time that our investments were driving results. And we actually have a new incoming CEO, just announced,

00:19:29:05 - 00:19:58:02 Vivianne And we we recently took her through all of the work that we've been doing. But my biggest section by far was on measuring and driving performance across all of our areas, not just performance marketing. So how do we measure and drive performance on brand, on PR, on all of our CX work? All of that was included, and it's important because it's a key to driving credibility.

00:19:58:03 - 00:20:20:08 Vivianne So that's where it starts. But then you also have to show alignment to this, you know, how does marketing align to the strategic priorities of the company, you know, show that you're an insights engine. Because by showing that you're an insights engine, again, you can demonstrate your your super power as a CMO that, you know, you can help drive decision-making.

00:20:20:08 - 00:20:49:22 Vivianne You can help also empower and facilitate decision-making throughout the organization. And then also showing how you're empowering others in the organization is also key and then also showing how you drive critical project impact. But I think it all starts with showing how disciplined you are. Goes back to the the data- centricity and showing how your how you can actually drive performance in the organization, how you have and how you continue to do so.

00:20:50:00 - 00:21:13:06 Alison I'm in such passionate agreement with you. It really is. It builds credibility and speaking the language of business, is also speaking the language of the CEO and CFO. And when they have the confidence that marketers are there to successfully build their business and help them achieve their goals, it becomes a fundamentally different conversation. So what advice do you have for marketers on communicating and influencing across the organization?

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:15:19 Alison That's clearly something that you do well.

00:21:15:21 - 00:21:47:11 Vivianne For me, it goes back to data. We have so much data. We have data about the customer. We have data about the funnel, data about the market. So part of it and goes back to what we talked about earlier about the CMO as evangelist. But part of that role means you're also there to help your colleagues better understand their own points of leverage and where they can drive value through those points of leverage so that you can help them in turn be more successful.

00:21:47:14 - 00:22:13:10 Vivianne So building excellent partnerships with sales, with individuals in operations across the organization, really to make sure that you can work together to to drive ultimate success for the organization. And then, you know, just make sure you're showing how you're not only being a good steward of resources, but you're helping to drive impact to strategic projects across the organization.

00:22:13:12 - 00:22:33:02 Vivianne And how you connect to the overall strategy of the company and how you drive growth. I think that those are important, but I think it really starts with what's in it for them and what you bring to the table. It's again insights and data that that can help them make better decisions and help them drive their own success.

00:22:33:04 - 00:22:41:20 Alison Vivianne, you've got an absolutely enviable career. So I want to close off our discussion by having you share one piece of advice that you would give our listeners.

00:22:41:22 - 00:23:07:00 Vivianne You know, I was thinking about this question because I know you ask it and, you know, I tossed between two key skill sets that are critical for any marketer to develop. And the first is obviously leadership, because even even as a young marketer starting out, you're always leading teams in some way, shape or form, even if it's just leading your agency to help deliver excellent creative.

00:23:07:02 - 00:23:42:08 Vivianne But I think the number one most important thing for anybody in marketing is to develop their communication skills. Because it's the ability to do this work that we talked about in terms of being able to communicate compelling value and communicate in a way that gets people to move and move to action. And being able to do that by appealing not just to their minds, but also to their hearts, because we know that in any type of decision-making, there's always both the heart and mind equation that's involved.

00:23:42:10 - 00:23:59:15 Vivianne So I think being able to develop that skill set where you become not just really good at it, but also very comfortable at it, and I think it's a lifelong endeavour to get there. But I think being able to develop that skill set is is probably one of the most important ones for any marketer.

00:23:59:17 - 00:24:14:01 Alison That's great advice, Vivianne, I really want to thank you for joining us today and for really giving us very actionable advice and for being very open and sharing the journey that you've led and led very successfully. So it's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:24:14:03 - 00:24:21:05 Vivianne Thank you, Alison, for having me. It's a pleasure being here.

00:24:21:07 - 00:24:33:20 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, hosts Shelley Brown, Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada and a judge at the 2024 Cannes Lions Festival. Shelley shares her insights on emerging trends, the crucial link between creativity and effectiveness, and the evolving role of strategy in award-winning work based on her experience judging the Direct category at this year's festival.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:20 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:22 - 00:00:49:07 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to give you an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at what it's like to be a judge at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, focusing on the strategic aspect of award winning work today. Our guest is Shelley Brown, the highly accomplished Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada. Shelley's's advertising career includes award winning work with leading multinationals including BBDO and now FCB, as well as top independents.

00:00:49:09 - 00:01:12:19   Alison One fun and somewhat concerning fact about Shelley is that she was once held by a member of the Khmer Rouge with a rocket launcher. Seriously. Shelley was selected to judge the Direct category at this year's Cannes Lions with an enviable career and strategic mindset that's contributed to many creative awards. I'm really excited to have Shelley guide us through the inner workings of judging her festival.

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:43:07 Alison Throughout our discussion today, we'll explore Shelley's personal experience with Cannes Lions, from her first time attending to what inspired her to become a judge this year. We're also diving into the essential role that strategy plays in creating winning campaigns and discussing the relationship between strategy and creativity, and how it's changed over the years. Shelley is also going to share her thoughts on how the Cannes Lions Festival itself is evolving to mirror the shifts in our industry and then move towards more business-focused, result-driven work, something that's a passion for both of us.

00:01:43:09 - 00:01:56:06 Alison We're also going to discuss the crucial connection between creativity, effectiveness and award winning work, exploring how agencies and brands can better demonstrate and communicate the business impact of our creative efforts. So welcome, Shelley.

00:01:56:08 - 00:01:57:11 Shelley Thank you.

00:01:57:12 - 00:02:05:12 Alison Now, before we chat about judging at Cannes, our listeners absolutely won't forgive me if I don't start by getting the story about the Khmer Rouge.

00:02:05:14 - 00:02:32:06 Shelley Okay. All right. We'll get that one out of the way. In 1993, my husband and I were traveling in Cambodia, which was in 1993, probably a pretty crazy thing to do. The UN was nominally in control of most of the country, but the Khmer Rouge were still active in certain parts of the country. But we were absolutely determined to go and see Angkor Wat, which once we finally got there, we definitely had to ourselves.

00:02:32:08 - 00:02:54:18 Shelley The monks were still burning the jungle back around the ruins so that you could see the temples. It was pretty amazing. But one day we were off to see another temple a little bit further away, and we were not aware that the front line had moved during the night. And so we actually crossed into what was that day Khmer Rouge territory.

00:02:54:20 - 00:03:21:02 Shelley But we figured it out when what I thought was a kid, he might have been 17, jumped out of the jungle into the road, which was, you know, there were bomb craters and it was a bit of a mess. We were in a 4x4 with an armed guard and driver and a police officer accompanying us. Anyway, he pointed the rocket launcher at the car and, you know, our trusty police officer, armed guard and guide, they all just froze

00:03:21:04 - 00:03:56:00 Shelley And just sat there. And eventually the kid with the rocket launcher approached the car and I figured, okay, I have no idea what to do. Didn't speak enough Khmer to really be able to communicate. And so I just started grabbing handfuls of money out of my money belt and threw them through the window at his feet. And when he was satisfied that the pile of money was large enough, he just made a "okay" gesture with his hands and, picked up the money and walked away.

In this episode of CMA Connect, the CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson, sits down with Stephanie Yung, Chief Design Officer at Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a judge at the prestigious 2024 Cannes Lions, Stephanie shares her unique insights on the emerging themes in the creative industry, her experience reviewing groundbreaking work from around the globe and her predictions for the future of creativity.

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:21:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:47:20 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to bring you an inside look of what it's like to be a judge in the prestigious Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Joining us is the incredibly talented Stephanie Yung, a true creative powerhouse and also the chief design officer for Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a globally recognized design leader, - Stephanie has extensive experience in the strategic translation of brands into new product services and experience.

00:00:47:22 - 00:01:20:04 Alison She's often sought out for her ability to establish brand visions for the future, and she has advised and collaborated with audiences ranging from the most recognized brands in the world to brand new startups, and from venture capitalists to nonprofit organizations. So she has a very diverse view and expertise that we are sure to benefit from today. Over the years, Stephanie's work has been recognized at every major award show, including DNAD, Cannes, The One Show, Fast Company's Innovation by Design and in fact, she has won eight Cannes Lions.

00:01:20:06 - 00:01:38:20 Alison So with that pedigree, it's definitely not surprising that Stephanie was selected as a judge for the industry craft category at this year's Cannes Lions Awards. Stephanie is bringing a wealth of knowledge and insights to our audience today, from her early days as a young creative winning her very first Lion to now being on the other side of the judging table.

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:59:16 Alison Stephanie's journey is definitely inspiring. So in this episode, we're diving deep into the Cannes Lion judging process and what it's like to review and discuss work from around the world. Stephanie will also share her early observations on trends and themes that she's noticed in the entries, and how the experience has really made her feel about the future of creativity in our industry.

00:01:59:18 - 00:02:02:07 Alison So with that, a very warm welcome to Stephanie.

00:02:02:09 - 00:02:03:23 Stephanie Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:15:18 Alison So, Stephanie, many creatives and marketers absolutely dream about winning a Cannes Lion. And I'd like to start by having you share what your very first experience was like winning a Lion and attending Cannes.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:37:12 Stephanie Yes. I mean, it was, gosh, I'm going to date myself, but I think it was over 15 years ago, around, and so, you know, just where I was in my career is definitely the early days. And I was the senior designer. I mean, from that point of view, I feel like winning Cannes obviously is just such an honour, but really the ability to attend.

00:02:37:12 - 00:02:58:19 Stephanie I think what it did, especially where I was in that point in my career, really expanded my aperture I'd say, just in terms of what creativity could do and the impact of it, as well as I'd say from the point of view of Canadians, Canadians being right up there, being able to set the benchmark with just the rest of the world or for the world.

00:02:58:21 - 00:03:19:07 Stephanie And I feel like it really informed me in the sense that I don't know if I would have ever gone to New York,  because I did work there for over decades, because it's just the idea of like the possibilities. That's what it really did for me. And, you know, also obviously reinforcing that creativity really can impact business and people's lives.

00:03:19:09 - 00:03:46:19 Alison That's such a great perspective. And often in Canada, we can be a little too humble about our capabilities and our talent. So to see how we really stack up and are outperforming our country's reputation on the global stage for creativity. I love the fact that that led to you taking a very different direction in your career and realizing that you could absolutely compete and succeed and thrive in New York City and some of the best advertising destinations in the world.

00:03:46:19 - 00:03:52:18 Alison So that's a great to learning to come back with, and the fact that you brought back a Lion certainly doesn't hurt either.

00:03:52:20 - 00:03:53:03 Stephanie Yeah, that's true.

00:03:53:03 - 00:04:17:08 Alison When I think about how our country has progressed in the 15 years since I was in Cannes, probably about the same time. But every year I've been thrilled to see we're winning more and more Lions, and we seem to keep upping the ante and upping the success of our country every year. Now, to the point where we're actually rivaling London as one of the top countries in bringing home Lions.

00:04:17:10 - 00:04:37:22 Alison So obviously, from a marketing profession and from a creativity perspective, that is incredibly inspiring and motivating for us as Canadians. And I'm excited to see us set yet  a new standard in the number of Lions we bring home this year. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what do you think is driving that, and our increased success at the Cannes Festival?

00:04:38:00 - 00:05:13:15 Stephanie Yeah, that's well, first of all, just in terms of the count, the count of Lions growing. I didn't know it, I didn't know it was like to that extent, which is pretty amazing. That's a really good question. If I were to think about it, I think it's perhaps just in terms of, you know, when we look at how people viewed creativity back then and the possibilities, I feel like our marketers, brands, businesses and organizations, their realization that creativity can impact business as well as people's real lives

00:05:13:15 - 00:05:27:13 Stephanie I feel like maybe opened up projects and opened up, I'd say, different types of problem solving and solutions. So that's probably why, because we are solving more problems through creativity.

00:05:27:15 - 00:05:31:05 Alison So what inspired you to apply to be a judge for the Cannes Lions this year?

00:05:31:07 - 00:05:56:14 Stephanie So it is very different in terms of like where I am now in my career. Obviously, I know it sounds really nerdy, but I think the opportunity to really be exposed to and connected to the most awe-inspiring work in the world is something that I really wanted to to do, but also, I feel like getting the time to actually get into rich discussions and learning different point of views and perspectives that are hopefully eye-opening.

00:05:56:14 - 00:06:15:13 Stephanie And I say that because, you know, when you think about, even in Canada, and I know I keep on, you know, coming back, just the idea of being Canadian, I just think we're a country made of so many different ethnicities and cultures. I feel like to hear more from other people's perspectives will only really make us stronger, and our general understanding of how to reach people here.

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:26:23 Stephanie And so I've always been just really interested in connecting with people and just in terms of learning about behaviours and cultures and what we can do to, I think, really add value.

00:06:27:01 - 00:06:46:05 Alison Such a great perspective. Now, I know that you're going to be on the plane soon, heading to Cannes. And when you haven't judged before, I was under the perception that all the judging happened once you arrived. And clearly I was wrong. So I'd love to have you walk us through the judging process and the commitment involved, because I know it is significant.

00:06:46:06 - 00:07:05:21 Stephanie So yeah, judging involves two stages. The first stage is actually virtual, which is the one that you're talking about, where we really do create a shortlist and that's done independently. And then the second stage is when we're on site and in that room, as we're saying, and having those rich discussions, and that occurs over a two day period.

00:07:05:21 - 00:07:27:13 Stephanie And that's when we really award what is shortlisted a bronze, silver and gold Lion. But in terms of just like, what does it entail, and the commitment required when looking at each entry? Each entry has a written submission. So that's really a time where people can tell the jurors really what the creative strategy was, the concept execution.

00:07:27:15 - 00:07:52:02 Stephanie And then there's a case film and then there's like presentation images and supporting material. And I mean, I think we all can recognize that Cannes really is a career changer and has a possibility to change people's lives. And in saying that, really do take the time to look at each entry and understand the social and cultural context, because this is a global kind of pool of work and platform.

00:07:52:04 - 00:08:20:10 Stephanie And I think also take the time to have that unbiased point of view. And so really, when evaluating the work, I'd say it really is leveraging the same principles that you do, and like I do in my day to day job. And so that really is looking at like, does it have the concept, does it have that level of craft because that is the category, is it original enough and will it have impact or does it for the brand and for the people it's trying to reach.

00:08:20:12 - 00:08:33:05 Stephanie And you know, so that's really how the process is and what we're looking for or what I'm looking for more specifically, when awarding or shortlisting the work.

00:08:33:07 - 00:08:53:06 Alison So I love that you're taking this seriously because as you say, it is a career changer, so... And I can imagine, I've judged other awards when you're going through so many submissions, you really have to hold yourself accountable because you, you at times want to take a shortcut. And you also called out the being aware of the biases that we each bring to it.

00:08:53:06 - 00:09:08:03 Alison So thank you on behalf of all the people that are hoping to win a Cannes Lion that you're judging, for making that a priority. Can you talk a bit about what you're doing to try to minimize your bias as well, as you're going through the process?

00:09:08:05 - 00:09:33:21 Stephanie Well, thanks for asking that question. I, I do think it's about being really, taking the time, I'd say, to be thoughtful and to really go through the submission. To really ask yourself, like or myself, when I'm going through it, why am I having this reaction? Is it based on any maybe biased thinking I have, whether that's in something that I might not...

00:09:33:23 - 00:09:57:21 Stephanie I'll give you an example. Something that might not be an issue that we face here. We might think, oh, is that, you know, not as important. But that's what I mean. That's based on our experience because we surely can't understand. So I feel like it's taking the time to understand the context of the work and then questioning, you know, is this delivering that versus making assumptions.

00:09:57:23 - 00:10:16:17 Alison So, Stephanie, right now you're judging virtually and independently. When you get off the plane and arrive in Cannes, you're obviously going to be coming together in person with your fellow judges for the Industry Craft Awards. And I'd love you to share a little bit about how you think that dynamic will change and what you're most looking forward to in that.

00:10:16:19 - 00:10:38:11 Stephanie I think when you're in person, you know, there's more of an ability to, I think, have an open conversation. And what I mean by that, so when we spoke about biases in the beginning, I feel like a person representing of that country could really talk about how the work might be effective or talk about some nuances that we might not understand.

00:10:38:13 - 00:11:05:08 Stephanie And so I feel like it gives space and room for understanding and for looking at the work through a 360 lens and really having a debate around it and its merits and why it was successful, why it was shortlisted and why it deserves to win. And so I really do feel like it's that added context and being able to see points of view that I might not have alone, you know, being a designer, that's my background.

00:11:05:10 - 00:11:18:19 Stephanie There are judges who have other backgrounds than me, and so I feel like that point of view altogether will really give out a well-rounded recommendation of really, what's the best? And our point of view of what the best is in the world.

00:11:18:23 - 00:11:35:15 Alison That's great. I suspect there will be some very healthy debates as well, so I'm sure that will be a fascinating part of it. And I also think that given the intensity of what you're going to be going through in person, I suspect there's also going to be some really great relationships and friendships formed with your fellow judges.

00:11:35:17 - 00:11:56:16 Stephanie This is what I hear. I mean, the past judges that I've spoken with, I mean, I feel like that's the biggest thing too, so when you asked earlier about, why did I want to judge? I feel like really the opportunity to meet creative people from around the world who are interested in the same things you are and who are trying to push their own field and work and in their own countries

00:11:56:16 - 00:12:00:23 Stephanie I feel like is something that I'm really excited about as well, for sure.

00:12:01:01 - 00:12:06:12 Alison Stephanie, I'd love you to share are there any early trends or themes that you're noticing in the entries that you've reviewed?

00:12:06:14 - 00:12:26:01 Stephanie Yes, there definitely are. I think when we think of craft in general, you know, it has the ability to move you and to make you feel, and I think that's what I was saying is a superpower. And as well, you know, I feel like Cannes, a show like Cannes, really is a reflection of things that are happening in the culture at any given moment.

00:12:26:03 - 00:12:45:03 Stephanie And so these are themes that, because as you were saying, I've also been judging a lot of different shows and and even like in speaking with people in  I would say parallel fields or people in the industry, not necessarily in advertising squarely, but in culture creating so on and so forth. I feel like there are some emerging themes.

00:12:45:05 - 00:13:05:18 Stephanie And so if we're looking at craft as a way to really bring feeling to work, people do that in different ways. And so the things I'm starting to see is nostalgia as craft. So it's really about trying to connect with people by harkening back to like a past time, and I feel like you really do see that in music as well.

00:13:05:18 - 00:13:28:13 Stephanie So whether you're referencing a different time and place through photography, typography or art direction, that is really something that we see. As well as imperfection as craft. And I feel like you see it everywhere, but things that, you know, it feels like something authored it. It's not about perfection. It's actually about seeing that human hand or that idea of a person behind it.

00:13:28:13 - 00:13:54:20 Stephanie And perhaps I feel like with the hot topic of AI, that may be a reason why we are seeing more of that, or the want for that and the reflection of that. And then lastly, I'd say, reduction as craft. And what I mean by that is really boiling something down to its most purest form of expression. And so those were the three I've seen so far, mind you, that might change as we like talk.

00:13:54:20 - 00:14:02:02 Stephanie And there might be more obviously, that emerge, but those are some themes that I've been noticing in craft in general.

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:16:07 Alison Many thanks for sharing that, Stephanie. Now I'd like to close our discussion, you've got a such an enviable career. I know our listeners would love to hear from you, one piece of advice that you would offer for everyone that's tuned in today.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:39:00 Stephanie This is always a hard question, but I think in keeping, you know, if we're keeping with our topic of just creating like world class breakthrough work. So if I were to keep with that theme or topic, it's really, I'd say get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And you know, what I mean by that is whenever we're creating something new, it doesn't feel comfortable at all.

00:14:39:02 - 00:14:59:03 Stephanie Whenever we're trying to do something different and go against what everyone else is doing, we really do have to, like, brave through it, kind of embrace uncomfortable and and work through it because, you know, just in terms of right now where we are in the world, I feel like we're very heavily reliant on data and things like that.

00:14:59:03 - 00:15:12:05 Stephanie And so, we at this point and the point of that is we need to trust our own experience to really work through it and take that creative and strategic leap, because that's really when true transformation and impact can happen.

00:15:12:07 - 00:15:31:23 Alison I love that advice from a professional perspective. I also love that advice from a personal perspective because every industry is changing, the marketing industry is going through massive change and at a pace that very few other industries are facing. So the reality is that everyone in our profession, if we don't get comfortable with being uncomfortable, it's not going to be a lot of fun.

00:15:32:01 - 00:15:57:16 Alison So Stephanie, thank you for the great advice. Thank you for making time in your very busy schedule to share the first part of your Cannes judging process with us. It's absolutely been a delight. When our listeners are tuning in to today's discussion, you will be off the plane in Cannes, working with your co-judges on the industry craft awards and making some really great decisions and ultimately changing some careers with the decisions that you're making.

00:15:57:16 - 00:16:03:11 Alison So I really appreciate the time you spent with us today, and I'm excited to connect with you when you get back from Cannes.

00:16:03:12 - 00:16:09:10 Stephanie Thanks so much for having me.

00:16:09:12 - 00:26:31:00 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends.