CMA Connect

Broadcasting live from Cannes Lions 2025, CMA CEO Alison Simpson discusses Bob Park's (Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada) bold decision to increase sponsorship of Canada Soccer amid multiple scandals. The condition? Complete equality for the women's soccer program. This purpose-driven stance delivered social change (equal pay for women's soccer) and business results (75% website traffic increase), taking GE's "good things for life" mantra further as "good things for everyone."

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:10:20 - 00:00:13:19 Video We are announcing that we are building a women's professional soccer league in Canada. GE Appliances to supporting women's soccer, it's phenomenal. It changes women's and girls' lives.

00:00:31:15 - 00:01:01:10 Bob Um, It still chokes me up. That thing, where we were faced with a real dilemma at GE. A number of the corporate partners of Canada Soccer, our governing, national soccer organization, had pulled out of sponsorship because of these, scandals and issues that were affecting the organization. But, and I had about a week to think about it.

00:01:01:12 - 00:01:25:02 Bob And obviously, from a corporate standpoint, it would make the most sense to just simply, pull our funding. We always have clauses in our contract, that say, if this happens, you can pull out. But I thought about it and I thought, about, back to our purpose. And our purpose is really, as GE Appliances, we want to support the community.

00:01:25:02 - 00:01:49:13 Bob We, our motto is "good things for life", and that means good things for everyone. How can we support Canada Soccer, which, soccer in Canada, the beautiful game in Canada and then pull out of backing financially the number one organization in the country. No matter how small it is, no matter what it is that you're doing, bring the change that you want to see in the world.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:56:10 Bob And after that, great things happen. Thank you very much. You.

00:01:56:12 - 00:02:26:23 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a story that is literally minutes ago, fresh on the stage from the prestigious Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity. We're exploring how innovative brand partnerships are reshaping the landscape for brands and sport marketing in Canada, and also really driving social change and important differences in our community and in equity in this case. So I'm thrilled to be joined by Bob Park, Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada.

00:02:27:01 - 00:02:49:00 Alison Bob is in Cannes, where he presented as part of the Changemakers series, which has been a very inspiring session where marketers around the world that are renowned for driving important societal change and building brands and businesses have been invited to speak. And Bob, you did a phenomenal job. So thank you for representing Canada so well.

Bob Thank you.

Alison And now we're going to dive into some questions.

00:02:49:00 - 00:03:10:13 Alison And he's going to share, what he shared in Cannes and answer some of our questions around it. So Bob, it's an absolute a pleasure to have you with me today. Why don't you start, by talking a bit about GE Appliances Canada entered into a multi-year partnership with Canada Soccer in 2022. Now you were surprised by a big, unexpected press issue.

00:03:10:13 - 00:03:35:14 Alison And anytime you enter into a sponsorship, there's always potential that things will go awry. Yet when things went awry, you stayed through it and absolutely continue to have a partnership and evolved your approach. So it's a very inspiring story. The audience at Cannes were riveted, so I'd love you to share with our CMA Connect audience a bit about the sponsorship, what happened and why you continue to support Canada Soccer.

00:03:35:15 - 00:04:02:11 Bob I think the first thing I have to do is, go back to, our thinking process or our thought process around, sponsoring soccer in the beginning. And really what it came down to is soccer is the most participated sport in the country. And the reason for that is the barriers to entry for sports like hockey, as an example, are, are it's very expensive to send, if you have any children in hockey.

00:04:02:13 - 00:04:29:03 Bob It's an extreme, expense. Soccer is the one sport that, despite whatever your family's economic condition is, almost any family can afford to participate in. And a large percentage of of the kids and families participating in soccer are GE consumers either now or down the road. So that made a lot of sense. The other thing that we really liked about soccer is it's a very diverse sport.

00:04:29:03 - 00:04:50:11 Bob Worldwide, it is also the most participated sport in the world, and it's phenomenal how accepted it is. No matter what country you go, we're in France now, and, and it's called football here. And I was just talking to a couple of people getting off the stage of how much they loved the game. So Canada, believe it or not, the fastest growing sport is soccer.

00:04:50:11 - 00:05:11:01 Bob More people are playing soccer than ever before. Our major league teams are getting much more attention, and our national team. So it was a kind of a no-brainer knowing that World Cup is coming next year in 2026. You know, we had decided in 2019, how do we, how do we leverage that? How do we how do we approach our consumer?

00:05:11:01 - 00:05:45:09 Bob And it was to get involved with major league teams in Canada, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and finally, really the crown jewel was Canada Soccer because we wanted to support our national teams, both, men and women. And of course, all the all the, grassroots programs across the country. Unfortunately, what had happened was, a number of different scandals, of which, a lot of the sponsors for Canada Soccer, in fact, had pulled out and and found it to be, untenable to maintain a relationship.

00:05:45:09 - 00:06:15:20 Bob And that was, you know, due to a few different, things that had happened. But probably the most prominent was, the women's soccer team going on strike, because of really unfair agreements or conditions as compared to the men's team. So an example of that was, they were having the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and many of the women's players had to pay for their own plane tickets to go to the World Cup.

00:06:15:22 - 00:06:25:09 Bob That's entirely unheard of for virtually any country, much less Canada, where obviously the men's team were fully funded.

00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:03 Alison And which team was performing significantly better?

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:50:12 Bob Yeah, the the women's team was challenging. They'd won a gold medal. Definitely one of the top teams in the world. So it really didn't make a lot of sense. And, the women rightfully, protested it. They kept playing their games but they donned purple shirts and really made it public. So as a brand that damaged our brand significantly.

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:14:14 Bob And any brand associated with Canada Soccer, because if you don't stand for that, it's going to do damage and you get social media inquiries and all, all types of questions around, why are you sponsoring this? Why is GE a part of, this terrible thing that is happening over at Canada Soccer? So I had about a week and I really thought about it.

00:07:14:14 - 00:07:51:06 Bob And I had the opportunity because it is a clause in most, sponsorship contracts to actually withdraw. And big names had already withdrawn their support of Canada Soccer, which is, predominantly financial and significant amounts of support. We are one of the largest sponsors of Canada Soccer. So it was really a crossroads. And the one thing that really ran through my mind was that, if I withdraw support, I'm actually truly withdrawing support from both the men's, women's and grassroots programs.

00:07:51:08 - 00:08:15:20 Bob And essentially what that does is, although I'm doing it in, I guess, protest of how they were treating the women's team, I'm, I'm completely dropping the funding as well. So that actually wasn't a winning situation for anybody. I thought and I thought about it. And finally we came up with the idea to write an open letter.

00:08:15:21 - 00:08:39:06 Bob So we wrote an open letter, and we distributed that across all, media, online, etc. and it got picked up by a number of different publications - sports, Globe and Mail, TSN, etc. and what the letter had said was the letter was, was from me. And what it said was, I'm actually going to, give more money to Canada Soccer, which was kind of odd.

00:08:39:06 - 00:09:04:02 Bob I was going in the reverse direction. However, it came with a caveat, and the caveat was that that money was to go to specific programs that we agreed to and outlined, for example, trainers for the women's team, flights being paid for, etc., etc. It was all earmarked for the women's soccer program. That got me some calls.

00:09:04:02 - 00:09:29:12 Bob It actually got me some calls from the CEO and Headquarters and they were wondering, what I was doing and, I explained it to them that, that this is what our brand stands for, and this is the only way to maintain our commitment and our purpose, but still show that GE does not accept inequity.

00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:17 Bob Our brand is not meant that way. And this is not acceptable to us, but we don't want to pull support of our hugely successful men's and women's programs. So a little bit of touchy, touchiness there, bit touch and go. But then finally, it actually paid off. Fast forward, months later, the women received an equal program.

00:09:50:17 - 00:10:24:09 Bob They received equal pay. They are now on equal terms with, with the men's team. And and you could see now, it spiraled into Women's League, just, Women's Northern Super League just started in Canada. The game is changing just like it is for basketball and, and hockey and women's sports. So, you know, the Changemaker Series is really creating a spark and doing small things that can add up to eventually becoming something big.

00:10:24:10 - 00:10:48:01 Alison And you describe it as a small thing. But from where I'm sitting, it is anything but a small thing on a bunch of levels. So first, you're betting your personal brand and reputation and to some degree, your job on this. It's a very bold move. And when you were on stage at Cannes, you talked about the crucial role being bold plays and you embody that and this decision and then this approach.

00:10:48:03 - 00:11:05:14 Alison I'm also curious to hear how you sold that through, like getting getting a call from the CEO of the global organization absolutely gets your attention. And I'm curious to hear how you sold it through, and at any point, did you question whether you should be pursuing this or not?

00:11:05:15 - 00:11:32:22 Bob Okay. So I'll answer the sold it through. Well, the the truth of the matter is, the good thing about my organization is that I'm granted a lot of autonomy. So I didn't really have to sell it through. I just explained what I was doing and why, and there wasn't any objection. I don't think that the gravity of what it was was really understood at the time, because nobody knew what would... nobody have,

00:11:32:22 - 00:11:54:21 Bob no media outlet might have picked it up like, but I, I really talked about it as a move, really advertising that, GE doesn't stand for that. But we don't want to withdraw our support of Canada. So I thought it was a win-win when I sold it through. And I still think it's a win-win for everyone now, today.

00:11:54:21 - 00:12:21:16 Bob And and now that it's easy to say it now because the numbers and everything proved it. But back at that time, I did believe in it. And really the reason why, so answering the second question, that I believe in it, is that it goes back to what does your brand stand for? What does GE mean to people? Our mantra is, good things for life and taking that a step further, it's good things for everyone.

00:12:21:18 - 00:12:54:20 Bob Everyone, every family in Canada needs home appliances. So we, we sell our products to everyone up and down the gamut. Every culture that comes to Canada, new immigrants, newcomers, whether you're transgender, homosexual, it really is irrelevant to us. Everyone needs them. So we have to be that brand. We have to equally represent everyone in that spectrum.

00:12:54:22 - 00:13:10:21 Bob Because they're all GE consumers. So to me, running with a purpose like that and what we what the brand means it, it kind of was a no-brainer. So, maybe it was a little foolhardy, but we did it.

00:13:10:23 - 00:13:27:16 Alison You've embodied being bold and brave in your move, you've made a significant difference for soccer in Canada, women in particular. So I'd love to hear on a personal note, how did it feel when you found out that your efforts led to the women getting equal rights, including equal pay?

00:13:27:18 - 00:14:01:04 Bob That is huge to me. I think, I, I, I played a lot of sports when I was younger. And, you know, any kid that's ever picked up a hockey stick or a football or a soccer ball, etc., you always have those dreams of game seven over time and being something in sports and, in my own small way, I think personally speaking, I was able to contribute and any success that, the women's team has, I feel a very small part of it.

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:40:05 Bob So it's really it it's it's the passion that that that drives you. It really personally upset me, especially the reason why I bring up that that flight thing that they had to pay for their own flights and they don't they don't have, they didn't have athletic trainers. It really broke my heart in the sense that, we were expecting these players to go out, and for the highest honour, to represent our country and the only other way to represent our country in that in such a manner is is going to war.

00:14:40:05 - 00:15:02:23 Bob And for that we give so much credit for. But these, these players sacrifice so much. And whether men or women, to represent us, and to not give them the basics, really what it is, to to give them the best opportunity that we possibly can for them to compete is just so, it was such an atrocity to me.

00:15:03:03 - 00:15:22:12 Bob And then to have it, without equity, was even, was even worse to me. So to be a small part of changing that dynamic was, was a huge impact on us. So seeing them successful and playing and the growth of the women's, women's, Northern Super League is amazing to me. I love it.

00:15:22:14 - 00:15:39:17 Alison Well, it's incredible to me as a Canadian, when I first heard I, I knew that they weren't getting equal pay, but I had no appreciation that many of them had to work part time jobs to pay for themselves and the fact that they didn't have trainers, didn't have to, had to pay their own flights, and yet were still performing at the level they were,

00:15:39:17 - 00:15:48:21 Alison and you think you can't help but think if we support them the way we should be, let's see what they can do. So thank you for being, you call it a small part of that, but I give you more credit than that.

00:15:48:22 - 00:15:50:08 Bob Thank you, thank you.

00:15:50:10 - 00:15:59:08 Alison Now, as marketers, everything we do is about the brand purpose. It's also about building the business. So I'd love you to share some of the business results too.

00:15:59:10 - 00:16:35:09 Bob So I think the way that you measure anything obviously, and in our world is definitely sales-based. And really what what marketing essentially, what we're trying to do as marketers is really put ourselves in that in a consideration set. There's so many different digital, KPI and different words that you can use for it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a chocolate bar, a t-shirt, whatever it is, in our case a washing machine or, or a stove, are we in that consideration set when that person comes to that time to purchase?

00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:15 Bob And are we able to present why buy GE, in our case? And a lot of cases we're finding, let's say, for example, newcomers coming to Canada, they don't have General Electric here in France. So they're completely unaware of the brand. But they are aware of soccer, and they're fans of soccer. One of the first things they do when they come here is get acclimatized to what's going on with football in Canada.

00:16:59:17 - 00:17:23:09 Bob So all the background of why we got into this, we did so much research, and we knew that there was an entire market that we could start convincing to become at least someone that would consider a GE appliance and look at it, if not become a purchaser of a GE appliance. That's ultimately in any marketing organization,

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:52:05 Bob that is what we're trying to accomplish. So, oddly enough, doing purpose-built work like like we did with, with Quinn, the first non-binary, national ambassador of a corporate ambassador, to what we did to support the women's national team, it all paid off, year over year. And heading into 26, exponentially.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:37:12 Bob We expect about probably about 75% increase in a research study that we do annually. And it's specifically targeted to, would you, would you consider buying a GE appliance? Would you recommend a GE appliance? Very simple questions. And that number, that statistic, with 12 million soccer fans in Canada, is increasing roughly about 10 to 20% every year, year over year. By 2026, which is the World Cup next year, that 12 million fans is going to become around 20 or 22 million fans, we predict, of soccer because of what a World Cup does when it comes to a nation. We're going to be primed and we're going to be a part of it, and it's simply doing things that are true to our brand identity.

00:18:40:09 - 00:18:46:22 Alison Well, that 10 to 20% annual increase in those sorts of studies is a significant increase.

00:18:46:23 - 00:19:15:03 Bob It really, it really is. More than actually what we had budgeted for or what we had forecasted. I was thinking more in the single digits, but it's really, really cool how this stuff really resonated. This, for example, the sport, the women's team, it shot up our website visits by 75% the next month, like literally, after that open letter went out.

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:39:12 Bob So people now are becoming much more interested and finding out about GE, it's it's where it wasn't in their consideration set before and have that emotional attachment with a soccer fan or a Canadian or a woman that just wants to see women's equity is really something you can't buy. You have to be bold. You have to, you have to do things that are true to your purpose.

00:19:39:14 - 00:20:06:03 Alison But I also love when it would be reasonable for our audience to say, okay, so why would an appliance company partner with soccer and part of your rationale you just shared is brilliant. Like if soccer is more global than GE is, we are a country of immigrants and newcomers to a large degree, and you saw an opportunity to leverage that to grow the awareness and the affinity for GE. That makes so much sense and great insight.

00:20:06:07 - 00:20:11:16 Bob Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it seemed so logical at the time. Yeah. And it worked out.

00:20:11:17 - 00:20:21:10 Alison So our audience are, I'm sure, going to be very curious to hear what your plans are, to the degree that you can share them, with soccer leading into 2026.

00:20:21:12 - 00:20:56:01 Bob So 2026 is so exciting. The reason why, what makes it so exciting is if you think of any sporting event in Canada, whether it's you, your grandparents. In the last 100 years or more, in fact, the existence of Canada, an international sporting event, or in fact, any event of this magnitude, it's never happened. Olympics are definitely, large, but actually the most viewed sporting event in the world is the World Cup.

00:20:56:01 - 00:21:22:15 Bob It doesn't even come close. It's because it combines so many nations as I said. It's the most widely participated sport in the world. It is exponentially growing in Canada. It's going to be like nothing we've ever seen. It's in two cities, both Vancouver and Toronto, and I think it's going to, and we're all predicting, it's going to bring Canadians together in a very, very meaningful, and special way.

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:51:09 Bob So to be a part of it, to, be supporting our Canadian athletes as they compete for a World Cup and actually have a very, they just broke the top 30, national rankings. So we have a competitive team. It's going to be extremely exciting. I can't broach exactly what the plans are. The one thing I can share is that we are going to be really focused on

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:16:16 Bob exactly what we did with the women's team, or working with Quinn, and all of the things we've done to this point. It's all been about accessibility. The sport is accessible regardless of financial circumstance. It's the most participated sport in Canada. Our doors are open to people like Quinn, non-binary athletes. Our doors are open to women, men, any gender, any culture.

00:22:16:18 - 00:22:35:04 Bob That's what GE is all about. So we're, we're just going to take that a step further, and we're going to have, in partnership with Canada Soccer, we'll just say, a big, big activation that's going to embody that, into 2026, that, it's going to really capture that spirit.

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:57:05 Alison Well, I'm excited to see more. And we'll have you back on the podcast when you can share a few more details.

Bob Perfect.

Alison So I'd like to close with two questions. This has been such an inspiring example of understanding your purpose and having the guts to stick to it through really adverse times, both for the organization and the brand, but also for you personally, from a career perspective.

00:22:57:10 - 00:23:04:07 Alison So what advice and what key learning coming out of this experience, would you share with our audience?

00:23:04:09 - 00:23:30:18 Bob I think, you know, if I was talking to any marketers or even individuals, as, oh, there we go, it's time to go. (Laughs) As I said, earlier, on stage, it's really about being bold, knowing what your purpose is, and then being bold. So your purpose is really, whether it's personal, whether it's corporate, knowing who you are and what you stand for.

00:23:30:20 - 00:23:52:18 Bob So for me personally, I knew that that wasn't okay with me personally, what happened with the women's team, but I had to expand that to corporate. And what what would GE do? What is GE? What does GE mean? What is our purpose? And really, once you got down to that, after that there's no point in being timid about it.

00:23:52:20 - 00:24:25:19 Bob It's really about now let's push this agenda. And if you are genuine, the consumer will realize that. And that's exactly what happened here. We were, we've made bold steps and it paid off in terms of creating a good environment and igniting something at Canada Soccer that drove change. But at the same time, it did a good for our brand because I think consumers realized that, wow, I really like what GE is all about.

00:24:25:19 - 00:24:41:16 Bob And I really like that GE did something about it. So I think if you have those factors into place, whether it's again personal or corporate, you're going to make change, no matter how small or how big in the world. And it's going to be, positive.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:44:23 Alison And incredibly rewarding for the business and I suspect, for you personally.

00:24:45:01 - 00:24:46:07 Bob Absolutely.

00:24:46:09 - 00:24:59:06 Alison So I end every podcast, because we always have very senior, successful people on the podcast, I end every podcast by asking you for what's a piece of advice you would give to marketers who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

00:24:59:08 - 00:25:02:11 Bob First of all, don't follow in my footsteps.

00:25:02:13 - 00:25:04:07 Alison And why?

00:25:04:09 - 00:25:26:03 Bob I mean, I think that would go back to my piece of advice. You're going to make a lot of mistakes. I think if you listen and tune in to any, success advice or entrepreneurial advice, it's okay to make mistakes. I think it goes back to that same psychology of being bold. Really.

00:25:26:06 - 00:25:54:03 Bob Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Ask a lot of questions. Learn. Marketing is such a dynamic field. If you look at marketing from the early 2000s, even to today, the roles themselves have changed. A brand manager, someone in PR, you name it, digitization. And now with AI being the next great frontier, it's changing roles dramatically.

00:25:54:05 - 00:26:27:10 Bob So you have to be courageous. You have to be bold. You have to ask a lot of questions, and you have to you're going to make mistakes, and you have to be willing to change. Nothing great ever happened in the comfort zone. So prepare to be uncomfortable, and it's actually the people that thrive in that zone that are going to be successful, especially in marketing, because quite frankly, in terms of corporate strategy, business strategy, whether you're agency or brand side, you're leading the way, so be bold.

00:26:27:10 - 00:26:32:08 Alison Great advice. And some of my best lessons have been from the mistakes I've made.

00:26:32:12 - 00:26:33:04 Bob Absolutely.

00:26:33:07 - 00:26:46:03 Alison There's something about failing that creates memory glue, and you definitely change behaviours and become much more agile in your approach and do what you need to do to avoid and to learn from it. So phenomenal advice.

00:26:46:05 - 00:26:46:17 Bob Thank you.

00:26:46:19 - 00:26:56:12 Alison Well Bob, it's been an incredible conversation. Thank you very much for coming literally off the stage at Cannes and spending time with us. And congratulations on a really great presentation. The crows were riveted.

00:26:56:14 - 00:27:02:10 Bob Thank you very much.

00:27:02:12 - 00:27:15:01 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Broadcasting live from the 2025 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, CMA CEO Alison Simpson speaks with Susan Irving (CMO, Kruger Products) and Bryan Kane (CEO, FCB Canada) to discuss FCB Canada's Gold Lion win with SickKids Foundation and why Susan and Bryan keep returning to the festival. From Susan's three C's of Cannes and Bryan identifying areas to lean into, discover the insights shaping the future of marketing, creativity and accountability.

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:23 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:11:01 - 00:00:32:16 Alison Simpson Welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. I'm Alison Simpson, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Susan Irving, the chief marketing officer for Kruger Products, and Bryan Kane, the CEO for FCB Canada. And Bryan, we'll start with a huge congratulations. You brought home Canada's first of hopefully many Gold Lions for your work with Sick Kids yesterday. How does it feel to be leading the charge?

00:00:32:18 - 00:00:50:22 Bryan Kane Well, it was a thrill for the team and everybody back home. There's an interesting thing with Cannes, where there's just a few of us that are here really representing the entire team, but getting the texts flooding in from clients and the rest of the agency was awesome to be able to share that with everybody.

00:00:51:00 - 00:01:02:18 Alison Simpson And, Susan, I know you've been here in past years. In fact, you judged, I think, two years ago. So how does it feel to be back and have a bit more flexibility in your schedule so you can actually take advantage of the programming?

00:01:02:20 - 00:01:27:17 Susan Irving It's always great to be here. It's my third year. And I think every year you're really just trying to get used to the craziness. I always say, if you've ever been to Vegas, it's Vegas times 100 for the marketer and creative individual. But it is nice this year not to be locked in a room for three days and being able to take advantage, of all the content.

00:01:28:06 - 00:01:42:03 Susan Irving If you've been here before, you know that it's just not the content here at the Palais. But then there's all the duelling beaches. So, it's always a struggle. I always tell people, register for everything, and then on the day, decide where you're going to go.

00:01:42:05 - 00:02:01:12 Alison Simpson So this is my first time back since I was agency side 15 years ago. And how much it has changed the volume of opportunities and calibre of speakers is unbelievable. So Susan, that is really, really good advice. So I'd love to hear from both of you. You've both been here multiple times. What keeps bringing you back? And Bryan, why don't you start?

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:31:15 Bryan Kane Sure. I think, Cannes does an incredible job of really looking at where the industry is going. So it's an opportunity to come together, as you mentioned, with, like, world class speakers. The content's incredible. But it's very forward-looking. So it's really a week where you can take a step back, reflect. And at the end of the day, it's also an opportunity to sharpen your tools where you get to take a step out of the business and really focus on learning and identifying those things that you need to to really lean into.

00:02:31:16 - 00:02:38:02 Bryan Kane So when you come home, you've got a really clear focus on what the keys are that you need to be looking at.

00:02:38:04 - 00:02:59:00 Susan Irving Yeah. Well said Bryan, if for me, you know, as a marketer, you think about the four P's, I think about it as the three C's of Cannes. Being the creative, the content and the connections that you make here. And, as Bryan said, it really is the time to to listen and get different perspectives on different businesses.

00:02:59:03 - 00:03:19:21 Susan Irving Listen to where the industry's going. And sit back and figure out what is then applicable to that, to your business. It just gives you so much hope and optimism and inspiration to see so much creativity across the board. And again, how do you bring it home to inspire your own teams and your own agencies? To get to great work.

00:03:19:23 - 00:03:21:16 Bryan Kane With.

00:03:21:18 - 00:03:39:14 Alison Simpson Very well said. And being live in Cannes means you're going to hear lots of background noise too. So that's just indicative of the level of energy that we're all surrounded by. So we're only on a couple of days into the festival, so it's still early, but I'd love to hear a particular key takeaway that you have or a presentation that really resonated with you.

00:03:39:14 - 00:03:41:10 Alison Simpson Susan, do you want to start?

00:03:41:12 - 00:04:16:18 Susan Irving Cannes was kicked off with some marketer of the year, which was Apple. And, you know, they're just a phenomenal organization. When you look at creativity and, you know, really thinking about hope and optimism and the fact that AI is is a big trend yet again. But really talking about, human emotion. And I can't deliver human connectivity and emotion and the way that Apple is just innovating and stepping forward, that constantly solving, a human problem or driving a human emotion.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:54:17 Susan Irving The second one, we were at Salesforce speech, yesterday. And again, it was Scott Galloway, who always says it like it is, he's quite blunt and straightforward, but the biggest message I got from him was stop thinking about AI as, as a tool and start thinking about it as a collaborator, because when, human detail, and human thought combined with power of AI, your accuracy will be that much higher when you think about it as a collaborator versus a tool.

00:04:55:00 - 00:05:17:03 Bryan Kane I think from an actual sort of time spent in my first day, there's an opportunity in Cannes, in the basement, where they post all the shortlists in the press for it, so you can really dive into the work. And I just felt my tank getting filled, looking at all this incredible work from around the world and really benchmarking ourselves against the absolute best.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:37:17 Bryan Kane Not in a category, not in a country, but just world class work. So the time spent in the basement is something that I cherish and try and make sure I squeeze some some time away as a guilty pleasure, just to sort of soak in the work for sure. I think also like in the context of some of the AI conversations, it's a theme of pretty much every talk.

00:05:38:07 - 00:06:12:04 Bryan Kane But what I've noticed, the difference between last year and this year is it's really stripped out. AI is being the idea, and it's really how did I help the idea? And really what is the role of AI? And so seeing the progression just in the 12 months since we were here last, has been really interesting. And I think that that continual evolution of us understanding how to harness the power of AI as opposed to it's a checkbox, that we need to integrate within our creative process so that that was sort of a takeaway, but it wasn't one talk, it just the theme, this sort of emerging.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:30:12 Susan Irving What just to build on that point was interesting to think about three years ago, the conversations were what is AI and how do I even use it? And even last year it was here's some tools. Here's how you can use it safely. But you're right. This year it's how did you use AI as a tool, to make your creative process better.

00:06:30:12 - 00:06:34:20 Susan Irving So you're right, it was quite interesting.

00:06:34:21 - 00:06:49:16 Alison Simpson So you both are clearly immersing yourself in the festival and all the benefits that it brings with it. So I'd love to hear what unexpected insight or new learning that you think will shift either the future of creativity or marketing.

00:06:49:18 - 00:07:08:05 Bryan Kane I think, one thing that's emerged is the need for optimism in the world. It's come up a couple of different times. It was a theme through the show last night when they were recognizing all the Gold and Grand Prix winners, but as I was sitting with that thought, it was the important role that brands play in our lives.

00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:01 Bryan Kane And brands have never been more important to give meaning and cultural context in a world that you know is increasingly chaotic. But that brands can be that anchor point for consumers and the need for optimism within brands, and to find ways to bring joy to people's lives, to help them, save time with something Scott Galloway was talking about.

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:41:16 Bryan Kane But the role that brands play and the importance was one where, you know, early in the week, but that was a reflection. And I think I'll sit with that through the rest of the week and build out that thought.

00:07:42:19 - 00:08:14:15 Susan Irving For me, it's also innovation. There seems to be a lot more of a trend, this year on innovation. One of the difference that, the schedule has done, they've now kind of shown you paths, that you can take that I think distills, the schedule a little bit more. But last night at the awards, just even after Bryan Ncbi won gold, they showed, a competition that they have where brands needed to solve, an innovation problem and come up with a solution for the world.

00:08:14:17 - 00:08:25:21 Susan Irving So again, what's exciting is, is leveraging creativity to come up with future innovation to solve world problems.

00:08:25:23 - 00:08:50:04 Alison Simpson And so both great insights and Bryan, building on euros, we had CMA's event case for Canada last week. And Kantar shared that only Canadians only think 13% of brands currently understand what their lives are about and the challenges they face, which is a huge opportunity to bring more positivity and purpose and have brands take a more of a leadership role in helping Canadians get to a better place in their lives.

00:08:50:04 - 00:09:04:07 Alison Simpson So nice to see the parallels. Absolutely. So still early in the week, we'd love to hear from each of you what you're most excited about or looking forward to in the remainder of the week. Who wants to kick us off?

00:09:04:09 - 00:09:20:21 Susan Irving I think there's a couple of things I always love the award shows. Obviously I think the stats are only 10% get shortlisted. Yeah, it's only 10% get shortlisted from the entries and only 5% three 3 to 5% medal and is.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:22:01 Bryan Kane One Grand Prix.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:41:11 Susan Irving And point one was the number that he said last night. So I love going to the shows, because you get to see the best of the best and see everything that's been judged. But then secondly, I, I love the speakers. I love going to the CMO, speakers. I love seeing all the celebrities that they have this year, which seems to be a bigger trend.

00:09:41:11 - 00:09:54:06 Susan Irving We just saw Serena Williams, the Kelce brothers were here. But it's just really understanding the different roles and different elements there are in terms of, you know, driving brand equity.

00:09:54:08 - 00:10:25:22 Bryan Kane The part of the week that I love again, is sort of rooted in the work, which is in the basement in the bowels of the Palais here. And there's, there's sessions every day, which is inside the jury room where the jury share the deliberation of the work and why one piece was awarded or maybe not, coming in, there's certain pieces that people expect to do really well, but really understanding the insights and how they just tour the work apart to really understand what was the insight, what was the driver and did that translate into the work.

00:10:25:22 - 00:10:57:06 Bryan Kane And then again, this really critical lens on results. And were these results clearly tied to the work, as opposed to a general business result? And having seen that evolve over the last number of years has been really interesting. The accountability behind the work and really work that is, is proving that creativity is an economic multiplier. And there's a direct straight line, between all the work and the immediate and long term business results.

00:10:57:08 - 00:11:18:06 Alison Simpson That is a fabulous note to end. Because it helps give our compression even more credibility. We are such a powerful part of building businesses and helping drive Canada's economy, and creativity is absolutely the accelerator for that. So it's wonderful to be learning as you are here, of the very real impact and able to quantify that. So Susan and Bryan, many, many thanks.

00:11:18:06 - 00:11:23:14 Alison Simpson I know it's an incredibly busy week and you've got a jam packed agenda. And I really appreciate you making time raising.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:28:10 Bryan Kane Thank you. So.

00:11:28:12 - 00:11:41:01 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

How can marketers harness data-driven insights while navigating privacy and emerging technologies? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Jan Kestle, founder and President of Environics Analytics, to discuss why data strategies must be enterprise-led, moving from "so what?" insights to "now what?" outcomes. Their conversation covers privacy-compliant collaboration platforms that reveal which advertising works, how privacy compliance enables effective marketing, and AI's role in enhancing data interpretation.

00;00;01;23 - 00;00;06;09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00;00;22;17 - 00;00;49;16 Alison Welcome to CMA Connect, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of marketing with industry leaders and innovators. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to welcome a true pioneer in the realms of data, statistics and marketing, Jan Nestle. Jan is the founder and president of Environics Analytics. With over five decades of experience, Jan has been at the forefront of using data and analytics to solve complex business problems and help shape the marketing landscape in Canada and beyond.

00;00;49;18 - 00;01;17;08 Alison Jan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. From her early days at the Ontario Statistical Centre to founding Environics Analytics in 2003, she is consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible with data-driven insights. Her contributions to the industry are massive and include developing the Prism Segmentation system and the Envision Business Intelligent platform, tools that have revolutionized how marketers understand and can reach their audiences.

00;01;17;10 - 00;01;42;08 Alison In recognition of her groundbreaking work. Jan was honoured with the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2022, truly cementing her status as a trailblazer in our field. In today's episode, we'll explore Jan's really fascinating career path and discuss a range of topics that are reshaping the marketing landscape. From the evolving role of data and predictive analytics, to solving business problems to navigating data privacy complexities,

00;01;42;10 - 00;02;01;23 Alison we plan to delve into the future of data-driven marketing. We're also going to touch on AI, enhanced customer journey mapping, ethical considerations and hyper-personalized marketing, and the importance of data sharing and driving business success. There is no shortage of great topics that Jan can speak to, and it is an absolute pleasure, Jan, to welcome you to CMA Connect today.

00;02;01;26 - 00;02;20;00 Jan Well, thank you very much and thank you for having me. I love working with the CMA. I think the CMA in the past few years has done an incredible job of having conversations that are very important to marketers and to the whole business community in Canada. So it's my pleasure to be with you here today, Alison.

00;02;20;02 - 00;02;40;21 Alison And well, thank you so much. Jan, I don't use the term pioneer lightly. You've been a pioneer in data statistics in the marketing professions. The fact that you've been a leading innovator in all three is also a sign that you didn't really take a traditional path to your career. You also succeeded as a woman at a time that was, very sadly, very rare.

00;02;40;24 - 00;02;52;23 Alison And I really find your story inspiring, both from a professional perspective and also from a personal perspective. I know many of our listeners would as well. So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about your journey.

00;02;52;25 - 00;03;22;06 Jan Sure. Thank you. Well, sometimes when I think about my long career, which I guess part of what makes me a pioneer is it goes so far back, is I think about three aspects to my career. First of all, as you mentioned, I worked as a government statistician, and then I worked as a sales and product development person and eventually a leader in a company that was well-established and owned by various players in the information business.

00;03;22;08 - 00;03;41;01 Alison And then finally, in the latter part of my career, actually started a business and built that. And for some people, it's kind of like, well, how did you decide to go from a government job to leading and working in the private sector and then running a pretty interesting business in the private sector? Why did you decide to start your own business?

00;03;41;01 - 00;04;03;13 Jan And always gives me pause when I think about it that way, because to me, it's been a continuum of figuring out how data and mathematics can really help simulate realities and help people solve problems, whether it's for business or social services or, you know, how we make Canada run better? I've always been excited about being able to use information to do that.

00;04;03;18 - 00;04;32;24 Jan The truth is, I, I have a degree in applied math, which is kind of like a combination of math and physics, and I graduated in a class of four women out of 140 classmates. And it was difficult, even being, you know, a good student and high in the rankings of my class. It was difficult to to get jobs for women in those scientific, and honestly, in any business in that day and age.

00;04;32;24 - 00;05;04;18 Alison So I was very excited to take on my first job as a survey statistician and editor in the provincial government. And that was when we didn't even have computers, never mind AI. We put data on spreadsheets that was actual pieces of paper. We edited questionnaires with red pencils. We shared our work with our partner across the table to do QA, and then we added up rows and columns in order to create data that went into large statistical outputs.

00;05;04;18 - 00;05;31;18 JAn I always say I got really good training on thinking about what the data are telling you and what's missing and what makes sense by being right down in the trenches. Eventually, in that particular role, I moved on to doing a lot of negotiating for the priorities for Ontario and the federal provincial context. But eventually I was leading that organization, and I, I enjoyed very much the work that I got to do in the policy side.

00;05;31;20 - 00;06;03;28 Jan But my choices for a new challenge were to leave the statistics and the data part of of the work and move into more of a government policy job. But I had the opportunity to go and work for the first company in Canada that took data and demographics and created customized versions of that that businesses could use. Compusearch was the pioneering company in that field, and they'd been around for about 15 years and mainly working for retailers.

00;06;04;00 - 00;06;27;07 Jan But they started to branch out and they recruited someone who really understood packaged goods, and they understood someone who worked in the financial sector. And they came and recruited me as someone who worked with governments and not-for-profits. And I joined, actually only took me like five days to make a decision to leave my pension and all that government work and take this opportunity.

00;06;27;07 - 00;07;02;23 Jan And I went into sales and I'd never been in sales. I'd done a lot of business and relationships, but my first job there was selling the data that they had produced back to the government sector, and that was exciting. And led me to an opportunity to work on the product side, is how do we take data and turn it into information, because many organizations can't really invest in building data and doing the work from the ground up. You actually have to turn data into a product or a service that can be actionable, that can make a difference to a community or to a business.

00;07;02;23 - 00;07;26;00 Jan So I went from being the statistician to being the sales person and understanding my customer's needs, and then going into product, and then eventually to president of that organization during its largest period of growth, which was the time period when people got computers on their desks, desktop computers, we went into desktop mapping. It was just the very beginning.

00;07;26;02 - 00;07;52;06 Jan It wasn't even the CRM era. It was what we call database marketing. When we were starting to mine data and combine the kind of data that brands had about their customers, quite limited, with the data that we had about postal codes. So I always think, you know, all these parts of this journey really enabled me to think about how to make data help people make good decisions.

00;07;52;08 - 00;08;21;26 Jan And eventually Compusearch was sold a few times and, and, you know, kind of went the route of what often happens with little businesses when they become successful. They they kind of became a part of selling software. And you know, a more bundled solution. And a few of us had a lot of feedback from our former customers to say, we really want people who focus on the data and the customized solutions or implementing the standard solutions in a customized way.

00;08;21;26 - 00;08;52;21 Jan And so, you know, the story is pretty well known. I decided to start a new business basically replicating building the data, but also helping people understand how to use the data. And that's what we started Environics Analytics. Our funding came from the traditional market research company, Environics Research, that had built a niche for itself, not only measuring political polling and consumer research, but measuring people's values and psychographics.

00;08;52;21 - 00;09;25;26 Jan And so they had this idea of bringing those two worlds together. And so Environics and ourselves are a little team of former geo demographers started Environics Analytics. Twenty years, 300 people, you know, a thousand customers and lots of databases and lots of data development. I still feel like we're continuing that legacy of help people take data and turn it into information that enables them to take action that can actually make their organizations more successful and ultimately make people's lives better.

00;09;25;26 - 00;09;49;15 Jan I think we know data for good. If you use data for health care or education or, you know, not-for-profit, that's considered data for good. But I also think it's data for good if you can get the right messages to the right people at the right time, get the right products on the right shelves, you know, organize people's busy lives so that they can really make good decisions and the data are there for them.

00;09;49;15 - 00;10;18;22 Jan So that's a bit of a long story, but that's kind of how I went from one data-driven organization to another and ended up building Environics Analytics. And then of course, the last phase of that story was when my partners and I sold the business to BCE, and we're now a Bell- backed company, but we still run an independent company where Bell is a customer and treated on a level playing field with other customers.

00;10;18;24 - 00;10;38;11 Jan But the great thing about that part of the journey is that they saw the need for Canada to really have a vibrant data business, and they have invested and supported us to continue to offer data and analytics services to the Canadian business community and their customers.

00;10;38;13 - 00;11;01;21 Alison Their story is so inspiring on so many different levels. There's so much curiosity that you've experienced, there's so much openness to try new things, so much innovation, and having a real vision for where you could take your skills next so I'm inspired on all of those levels. I also love the fact that for someone who started their career before computers existed, there can be a lot of biases around that

00;11;01;21 - 00;11;09;29 Alison you have to be a digital native to really get technology and to be visionary about technology. And you are such a wonderful example of that as total BS.

00;11;10;05 - 00;11;16;07 Jan Before we had desktop computers, I have to say we have computers!

00;11;16;10 - 00;11;38;11 Alison Good clarification. Well, and you continue to be very tech savvy and leverage technology and being very future focused. So when I think about some of the stereotypes that exist about you have to be a digital native to get it and to lead it, but you're a great example that that's simply not true. And then being one of four woman in a class of 140, to what degree did that experience,

00;11;38;11 - 00;11;43;26 Alison What skills to that experience give you that you think have benefited you throughout your career?

00;11;43;29 - 00;12;07;00 Jan Well, throughout my career I've always been sometimes the only or one of the very few women in the room. Even still now, because being at the executive level in businesses and being in businesses that tend to be more tech- oriented, we just have not, we've had progress, but we haven't had enough women get into those jobs and into those levels.

00;12;07;02 - 00;12;31;02 Jan I think the thing that, you know, you have to have a voice, and I think the most important thing for young women to know is, first of all, now I think they are far more welcomed and appreciated. I think that men in business understand the role that diversity brings to the table. So we talk about diversity in terms of of women in leadership and women in, in certain roles.

00;12;31;02 - 00;12;59;01 Jan But I think organizations that are committed to promoting women and, you know, fighting racism and fighting all different kinds of discrimination against special populations are really understanding that the talent pool that they're unlocking is tremendously valuable. And you're not leaving half the population or a third of the population, or 10% of the population on the table, by just hiring and promoting the same kind of people.

00;12;59;01 - 00;13;43;16 Jan So I learned by doing and and, you know, when I think back of the people that I highlighted and promoted in those different organizations, I'm proud of the fact that we always believed in diversity and equity and inclusion. And sometimes it was harder than other times to implement. One of the things that we do a lot of work on now is in the educational community, where we go into universities and we go into colleges and even into high schools and into women's organizations and into STEM organizations to help people understand how exciting and interesting these jobs are.

00;13;43;18 - 00;14;09;10 Jan Because sometimes if, you know, you're a high school student and struggling with math, or you might be really interested in geography, you might have no idea what the options are in the data and analytics space for you. You might think it's only coding and IT, but we're hiring a lot of people out of engineering. And you know what, the engineering classes have switched and the engineering classes are sometimes you know the majority are women.

00;14;09;10 - 00;14;21;18 Jan So through the years, times have changed. But we've also, as a team, stuck to that objective to make sure that you're using the whole talent pool and that you're using it effectively.

00;14;21;20 - 00;14;37;13 Alison It's another great example of how have you've led and positively impacted the profession. So a huge thank you for that. Now, with your wealth of experience, I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from hearing your views on the pivotal role that data, statistics and software have in helping us solve business problems.

00;14;37;15 - 00;14;57;24 Jan I remember about ten years ago we did a roadshow. We also like to get out across the country. We would do a breakfast and we'd go to Vancouver and then we'd go to Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, you know, stop in Quebec City and Montreal and then on to Halifax and other places and actually do a roadshow on the things we were doing.

00;14;57;24 - 00;15;28;18 Jan And I remember being really struck, I want to say about, 2016, when every journal with you Reading Inc. magazine or even Forbes or the Harvard Business Reviews, all the articles were about data-driven decision making. And I used to make a joke to say, well, what the hell else would you do, right? But I also know the extent to which we were selling people sophisticated models to find the best locations for retail sites.

00;15;28;20 - 00;15;54;25 Jan Or we were looking at, you know, early media, mixed models and channel optimization, looking at ROI across, you know, online and offline advertising. We were doing all this great work, and yet so many people were still using gut feel and the way we used to do it, that inertia and changing to new ways of doing things, is really hard for people.

00;15;54;28 - 00;16;21;17 Jan And so once more data became available, everyone was talking about using data. What I saw was a lot of organizations investing in data and investing in technology, but I was also very worried throughout the 2000s with a real backlash, which says, well, we're spending all this money on data, we're investing in technology, but is it really making a difference?

00;16;21;19 - 00;16;54;09 Jan And I think we now are at this stage where there's a lot more recognition that it does make a difference. But I think that it's pivotal if an organization has a data and analytics strategy, and it can't be something that comes from the ground up, even from the marketers, as much as the marketers I 100% support marketers have a role, but the IT department, the actual data scientists, they can't really develop a data strategy.

00;16;54;09 - 00;17;15;17 Jan It has to come from the business strategy. We have to know what are the problems we're trying to solve and the extent to which even C-suite, the CFO, the CEO, the COO will collaborate with the CTO and the CMO and we say, look, here's all the data we have. Here's what we need to do to harness it. Here's the data we don't have.

00;17;15;17 - 00;17;37;06 Jan Here's how we can get it. Here are the problems we're trying to solve. But then the other key question is, to what extent can we take this great insight and actually put it into practice? Because the last thing that you want to do if you're in the data business, is produce interesting studies and have people say, so what? You want people to say, now what?

00;17;37;06 - 00;18;04;26 Jan And the thing that's made a big difference is people's recognition that you design your data strategy and your analytics strategy around your business goals, understanding, how much can you actually go and implement, and how can you tell whether or not it's working? And I'm very excited about the extent to which we see that enterprise perspective, the silos in different parts of organizations being broken down.

00;18;04;26 - 00;18;17;20 Jan We're not there yet, but I think there's a recognition that there's an enterprise play for data and analytics, and that organizations will do much better when they have a strategy that's led from the top.

00;18;17;23 - 00;18;37;08 Alison That makes infinite sense. And I love the pivot from instead of it being so what to now what? That strong action orientation is critical for any business and critical for any marketer in order to build the business and build their career. So how do you see the relationship between data analytics and consumer trust evolving in the coming years?

00;18;37;11 - 00;18;58;22 Jan Well, when we're talking about data and analytics, the biggest application that we work in with marketers is really understanding consumers and creating consumer insight. You know, as much as we produce all this great third party data that comes from external sources and is anonymized and aggregated and delivered at the postal code, and I love the data, it's extremely useful.

00;18;58;22 - 00;19;25;28 Jan Biggest asset that brands have is the data that they have about their own customers. You know, we now start talking about first party data. And it's, you know, the first party data is the secret to customer engagement and eliminating churn and getting the right message and tailoring the product and the customer journey. And it absolutely is. The data that any organization has about its customers is extremely valuable.

00;19;26;00 - 00;19;50;25 Jan But those customers give you that data with an expectation that you are going to use that to make your relationship with them better, to make their service more effective. And as we you know, often ask them, can we use your data to partner and to do other things in the data and analytics space that help us do that for you?

00;19;50;25 - 00;20;20;17 Jan And so when it comes to privacy, my view is that, you know, the principle based laws that say that you do what a reasonable person would reasonably expect, that you have a consistent transparency and consent framework, that you tell people what you intend to do with their data, that you have the right process for them to say yes or to opt out if they choose to.

00;20;20;19 - 00;20;54;29 Jan But the key thing is that we can be successful and data- driven in Canada, and also honour the commitment that brands make to their customers or their members or their citizens and residents. If you tell people what you're going to do with their data, that you honour that and that you can be data-driven, I don't think there needs to be a contradiction between being, future-proof on privacy and being loyal and safeguarding consumer trust.

00;20;55;01 - 00;21;30;11 Jan And I think that the examples where we've seen where so-called people use data are bad actors are very few and far between. And I work with hundreds of organizations in Canada who invest a lot of money to ensure that they're doing the right thing, whether it was, you know, in the early implementations of the current legislation, whether we went through CASL, when we were looking at legislative reform, I see businesses working really hard to make sure that they're doing the right thing.

00;21;30;19 - 00;21;49;24 Jan And I don't think that privacy and regulation stand in the way of being data-driven for Canadian businesses. It's different. In the U.S. I hear from people all the time, oh, well, we can do it this way. We can do it that way. Why can't you do it this way in Canada? Well, how could we ever, you know, I don't want your your summaries of postal code data.

00;21;49;24 - 00;22;15;13 Jan I want to know actually who went to this store and like that. The reality is, in Canada, we have great data and we have great ways of using third party and first party data. And as a statistician, I assert that we can get an excellent statistical result from the kinds of data that we have that are privacy-compliant, and that we're doing our jobs to make sure that the data that consumers give us are safe.

00;22;15;16 - 00;22;34;19 Alison And your point around Canadian consumers are increasingly expecting this level of knowledge and personalization and are comfortable sharing their data when they know that they can opt out at any point, when they trust the brand and the business that they're sharing it with, and when there is a value equation and benefits for them.

00;22;34;21 - 00;23;01;20 Jan The research really supports it. As you know, I'm active in the privacy lobby, and we got our ISO certification on privacy by design, which we did because we knew that the legislation was in flux and we knew that we had to adhere. There's no, it's no use in Canada to say, oh, we're compliant with a law that was passed in 2000 that the whole environment expects a higher standard.

00;23;01;20 - 00;23;36;29 Jan And this CMA has done a great job of being a voice for that and helping to develop frameworks. And so between the CMA and other important organizations, industry associations, we're regulating and we're having that dialog with the government about what needs to happen. So I'm very optimistic, that Canadians feel good about that. But the truth is that, you know, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner or cocktail party when you say you're in the data business, we have to admit there's still a generalized public perception that this might not be a good thing.

00;23;37;01 - 00;23;58;29 Jan And so the one thing that I also say is we have to be a voice for data literacy. We have to be a voice for the importance of data. And not just, you know, any data. The data have to be safe from a privacy point of view, but they also have to be safe from a methodology point of view.

00;23;59;01 - 00;24;32;24 Jan You have to do the right thing. There's like there's a million different ways to create a model and and predict things and simulate reality and, and within the constraints of budgets and timing and privacy and technology., we also have to make sure that we keep our statistical standards high and that the quality of the data people have to be assured of, that people might spend 100,000 or even half $1 million on a research study and a big data and analytics project.

00;24;32;27 - 00;24;52;04 Jan But then they're going to turn around and they're going to spend millions on bricks and mortar or media campaigns. So when we talk about data and what we should do, we talk about what's legal and what's right, what's ethical, but we also have to talk about what's the highest statistical quality that we can produce as well.

00;24;52;07 - 00;25;06;20 Alison Great points. So Environics Analytics has been a leader and very good at anticipating where the profession is going. So I'd love to hear what future trends do you foresee in data driven marketing and how is Environics Analytics preparing for them?

00;25;06;22 - 00;25;27;20 Jan As I mentioned, the biggest trend we see is the desire of organizations to leverage their first party data, but not just to leverage it internally, but to combine it with that of a partner. So, for example, if I'm in the private equity space, I want to look at an acquisition and I want to look at maybe a merger.

00;25;27;20 - 00;25;52;15 Jan So you might want to take two disparate databases with different sets of consents, and you might want to merge them together to look at the feasibility and the market potential. Or if you're in media, you might want to know my publisher or broadcaster understands who's seeing the actual impressions of an ad. Then I want to know, you know, the extent to which those people actually bought my stuff.

00;25;52;18 - 00;26;16;12 Jan That might mean that you have to combine the exposure data with purchase data. And then, you know, and the final thing, there's lots of organizations in loyalty and marketing that are really looking to sell each other stuff. So we've been working for a long time at the need in Canada, given our environment, to enable organizations to have a safe collaboration platform.

00;26;16;13 - 00;27;00;10 Jan And we've invested a lot in what we call clean room technology and identity resolution and data collaboration platforms that are technologically advanced, but that have a governance and an orchestration layer on top of them that are optimized for Canada. So there's global solutions, and we partnered with the leading global provider, LiveRamp of these technologies last year because they have Canadian brands and they have Canadian businesses that are part of global brands, but they wanted to be able to bring these technologies for data blending, aggregation, de-identification reaching, you know, customers through the adtech system with anonymous identifiers and so on.

00;27;00;11 - 00;27;39;14 Jan They wanted to bring that to Canada, but, you know, they knew what they built for the U.S. would not work in Canada because we don't have those kinds of identity graphs in Canada. And they knew what they built for Europe, which was GDPR-compliant, was probably closer. But there were some nuances in the Canadian marketplace. We had previous they've been investing in building something that we called our EA vault, kind of a homegrown version of that, to help organizations safely blend data and bring our own data into that ecosystem and bring our own methodologies so that we could be confident about the statistical processes.

00;27;39;17 - 00;28;14;13 Jan So we were very fortunate to enter into a partnership with them and bring their technology and stand it up. We have it all operational and we have a number of customers using it which are helping people blend data and go to market together, but it's also helping marketers measure outcomes, because we're not becoming that measurement bureau. We're helping two organizations bring and exposures and outcomes measurement into a safe place where we can connect them through permissioned identifiers, and we can anonymize the results.

00;28;14;15 - 00;28;38;28 Jan So, you know the old adage, I know 50% of my advertising works, I just don't know which 50%. We can actually say, for these custom audiences, with these kinds of exposures, through this channel or this screen, this is the lift that you get in terms of actual sales, or walking into my store or combining POS data from another partner, we can actually say, this is what's working.

00;28;38;28 - 00;29;01;17 Jan This is what you could optimize and do differently. And to me, this is like the future. It's a whole new business for us. And at the beginning it was like, well, we're in the third party data, now we're going to be in the data collaboration space. But now what we're seeing is people who are really interested in doing good analytics want to be able to measure whether or not they're targeting worked.

00;29;01;19 - 00;29;20;22 Jan And so this is a breakthrough for us in what we call real outcomes, not just measuring reach and frequency, because that's an important part of measurement, but actually saying this part of my advertising worked, these kind of customers that you have, we don't have. If we partner together, here's what our potential is.

00;29;20;24 - 00;29;33;23 Alison Now, AI is another both disruptor and enabler in marketing and in business overall. So how is Environics Analytics approaching the balance between AI-driven insights and human expertise when it comes to data interpretation?

00;29;33;26 - 00;30;00;24 Jan So it's a great question. When AI, ChatGPT boomed, we started using a lot of AI tools for making ourselves more efficient. We've been doing machine learning, which is different from the more modern AI, but we've been doing machine learning for decades and developing cluster systems and taking survey data and projecting maybe a 50,000 sample survey to 750,000 postal codes, there's a lot of machine learning algorithms that help with that.

00;30;00;27 - 00;30;44;26 Jan So but when the new like wave, which are really, you know, new tools and now the next generation of those tools became available, we knew that we had a great opportunity to leverage these tools to help scale. So we are definitely using AI to help write code as we redevelop our envision system. We are using it to do kind of replicable algorithmic processes and data development, but it's important that we continue to work AI tools and the sort of more traditional tools in parallel to understand if we're prompting right, if we're using the data properly. The outcomes from the AI are great if you ask the right questions.

00;30;44;26 - 00;31;10;10 Jan And what we see is the opportunity to ask questions and then learn what more questions we should be asking gets great results. We are already now using AI to develop some of the actual data solutions, instead of the kind of storytelling and what we would call personification of segments. We went from office automation, code replication, interpretation and storytelling,

00;31;10;15 - 00;31;26;25 Jan we're now actually exploring how we use it to develop the key databases and some new kinds of databases. But we're cautious enough that we have to see how those results compare to what we got when we did it the traditional way.

00;31;26;27 - 00;31;46;00 Alison Now, Jan, I know from our earlier conversations that you're a big believer that data hoarding is out and data sharing is in. So how can data sharing in privacy- compliant ways help organizations and marketers in their measurement of results and better understanding which 50% of their advertising and marketing is actually working well.

00;31;46;03 - 00;32;10;13 Jan You know, if you have a lot of data about your own customers, you can use that to build your business. But if you're part of an ecosystem in the real world and you want to understand, as I mentioned before, growth opportunities through, you know, acquiring or consolidation opportunities, or you want to look at the combination of how I targeted my advertising with who actually bought my stuff.

00;32;10;16 - 00;32;50;15 Jan You definitely have to be willing to share your data. And I'm not talking about, you know, everybody taking their data and throwing it into some open marketplace. But I'm talking about having frameworks and processes that are more than privacy-compliant and that are affordable and accessible and also easy to use. So the two organizations who decide to share data and blend it and maybe create new data or create, you know, some kind of analytics of results, do it in a way that they can use the technology that we're building because it's expensive and it's complicated.

00;32;50;15 - 00;33;14;07 Jan So when we embarked on the program that I mentioned before to build a data collaboration service for Canada with clean rooms and identity resolution, we went to the industry and we said, we'll sell you these services, but we also said we'll make these services available to Canadian partners, to ad agencies, to publishers and broadcasters. You can use our clean room as a back office.

00;33;14;07 - 00;33;37;01 Jan We don't have to be in the forefront of all of that. The reason for that is because we know that, you know, we have productivity challenges in Canada. We want to Canadianize tools and technology so they work in Canada, but we can't go it alone in the technology space. So when we talk about data sharing, it's to enable all boats to rise.

00;33;37;01 - 00;34;06;26 Jan Marketers, publishers, platforms, ad agencies. We want to be sure that there is a strong Canadian foundation for data blending to take place in a way that's safe and effective, and that's, you know, the thing that I'm really committed to right now is in building for Canada a collaboration space that other people can use in order to make their businesses more competitive in this tough environment.

00;34;06;28 - 00;34;18;24 Alison And I know you're in early days of building this, I think you're about a year in now, so without giving away any client confidences, can you share a good example of partnership that's driving results and delivering on the vision?

00;34;18;27 - 00;34;44;23 Jan Well, we have manufacturers who are asking us to combine, say, connected TV data. So who who had their TV turned on when my ad was actually showing, based on the anonymized connected TV data. So can you combine that with also where the exposures took place in a programmatic campaign? So now we've got, you know, TV data combined with programmatic data.

00;34;44;25 - 00;35;08;20 Jan And then can we get point of sale data from a retailer and actually show the reach across different channels and different screens and show how different targeted audiences responded? Like how many times do they need to see my ad in order to drive them into the store to buy? How many people go in the store and do they buy, not buy?

00;35;08;20 - 00;35;39;10 Jan So really true authenticated attribution multiscreen reach and frequency. And then a measurement of did they buy? We actually are doing those projects right now. We're also helping customers who want to understand how to add partners into loyalty programs. If I have this customer base right now, who am I missing? What other kinds of partners in business offers would make my program more attractive?

00;35;39;13 - 00;36;16;16 Jan And you see the whole loyalty space changing with convenience and gas and grocery and then all these, you know, consolidated. So we are helping these organizations understand how they can improve their reach and their membership by understanding what the synergistic partnerships can be for them. We have, I would say, five marquee customers, big relationships with customers and those kind of major consumer marketing industries who are working with our collaboration and identity solutions through the EA Vault and LiveRamp.

00;36;16;16 - 00;36;38;20 Jan And then we also done over 30 smaller projects, because people can take all this technology and do it themselves or they can come and ask us to do it for them on a managed-service basis. And so we've done big things and small things in the past year. We've been very excited at the adoption. Of course, we'd like it to be faster.

00;36;38;22 - 00;36;59;09 Jan I know that the LiveRamp people are saying in the U.S., despite some of the kind of challenges that they've had, you know, really great growth in the past year, I heard somebody say that people at TMU wrote an article a little while ago calling Canada the Hesitation Nation. So we're trying to say, jump in, start collaborating,

00;36;59;09 - 00;37;16;03 Jan blend your data with someone else's, do this outcomes measurement, so that we can actually, you know, show you how it works. Doesn't have to be a big project. You can start small. And that's kind of what's the most exciting thing that's happened with us in the last year.

00;37;16;06 - 00;37;24;18 Alison That's a great update on the Hesitation Nation. Overcoming that is also going to be a key part of us for improving our level of productivity as a country too.

00;37;24;18 - 00;37;42;18 Jan Well yeah, people say, well, what do you think about the tariffs? What, you know, what are your customers during what should they do. Well, they should understand what data they have. They should understand the problem they're trying to solve. They should think about sharing their data with partners. They should look at, you know, segmentation, targeting and measuring the outcomes.

00;37;42;18 - 00;38;11;09 Jan In other words, we just need to we have the tools. And in our business, both Compusearch and Environics. We've always had an opportunity to help people in tough times as well as in good times. And so we think right now with what's, you know, many Canadian businesses are facing, that having really good data and analytics solutions is a big part of making our businesses more resilient and more competitive.

00;38;11;09 - 00;38;26;09 Jan You know, we're going to look for other partnerships. We're going to look to other parts of the world. But right now, data and analytics can really help businesses get the right product message idea to the right people at the right time and see whether it's working or not.

00;38;26;11 - 00;38;44;07 Alison Well said. Now, Jan, you're incredibly busy and you've been very generous with your time. So I just have one more question and it's a bit of a pivot question before you go. I would love you to close by sharing the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00;38;44;09 - 00;39;05;16 Jan Well, if you want to follow exactly in my footsteps, you got to be really good at math. But no, leaving that aside, the real thing I think that makes a difference is passion. Figure out what you want to do and make a contribution. People who are very successful in their careers know that what they're doing, whether it's big or small, is making a difference.

00;39;05;18 - 00;39;29;15 Jan So as an entrepreneur, you run into forks in the road, you have decisions to make. There's no bad decisions. You have a plan. You have a passion. You're driving towards something. You have funding and customer problems. And people say, no, no, no, we can't do that. You know what? You just don't give up. Never give up. Having a passion and finding a way to make it work.

00;39;29;17 - 00;39;56;06 Jan Obviously you live in the real world, so you have to respond to to pressures. But we can't just change what we're doing. Well, we used to do it the old way. Well, no, we can't do it that way. We have to find a way to implement the things that we think need to be done and tear down the roadblocks and the inertia and the silos that prevent us from realizing what it is that we think will make a difference.

00;39;56;11 - 00;39;59;13 Jan Because we have to make a difference. We have to show up.

00;39;59;15 - 00;40;14;17 Alison Well, I think back to the beginning of the podcast where you shared that you were one of four women in a class of 140, you learned very early on that you knew what you wanted to accomplish, you were passionate about it, and you were always going to find a way. And that clearly has served you incredibly well throughout your career.

00;40;14;24 - 00;40;17;16 Alison So Jan, thank you so much. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.

00;40;17;20 - 00;40;22;20 Jan Thank you. Thank you, Alison, for having me here today.

00;40;22;23 - 00;40;35;10 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

How are tariff disputes and economic uncertainty reshaping Canadian consumer behaviour? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada and Sean Martin, General Manager at Numerator. Their conversation explores the nuances of the "Buy Canadian" sentiment, its impact on domestic and international brands, and provides strategic advice for marketers navigating this complex landscape.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:21 - 00:00:46:03 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling a topic that's been dominating headlines and boardroom discussions alike. The shifting landscape of Canadian consumer behaviour in the wake of recent tariff disputes, and the global political and economic uncertainty. Joining me today are two of Canada's top insights and analytics leaders. Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada, is a veteran with over 30 years of market research.

00:00:46:05 - 00:01:14:17 Alison He's held significant roles at Angus Reid Group, Warner Lambert Canada, PepsiCo Canada and has led Kantar Canada for the past 15 years. Scott, also a regular industry speaker, the past Chair of Queen's University Dean's Council of Arts and Science and the founding president of the Canadian Advisory Council for the Insights Association. Joining Scott and me today is Sean Martin, general manager at Numerator, and a trusted advisor to many of the largest companies across North America.

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:35:09 Alison Sean also started his career working for leading brands and held senior roles at Mars, GSK and Procter Gamble before taking the lead role at Numerator, where he's led the Canadian business for five years. Scott can be sharing key insights from what Kantar is seeing about Canadians perspective and planned behaviours, and how they're changing as a result of the chaos that's emerging from south of the border.

00:01:35:11 - 00:02:01:23 Alison He's also covering important considerations for brands. Sean will complement this by highlighting the actual ways that Canadians' behaviours have changed when it comes to their purchase decisions and actions. Together, the three of us are diving into how Canadian consumers are responding to the call to buy Canadian, as well as the risks and opportunities for both domestic and international brands, and the very delicate balance between patriotic messaging and authentic brand positioning.

00:02:02:01 - 00:02:16:01 Alison From the pitfalls of maple washing to the surprising resilience of shopping habits, our guests will share their latest research and offer valuable advice for marketers navigating through these turbulent waters. Welcome Scott and Sean, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

00:02:16:02 - 00:02:17:02 Scott Thank you Alison.

00:02:17:04 - 00:02:19:09 Sean Thank you Alison. Wonderful to be here.

00:02:19:11 - 00:02:28:17 Alison Now, I'd love to have you both answer my first question. Can you each share what your organizations are doing to track Canadian consumer behaviour? And, Scott, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:15 Sean We've been looking

00:02:29:15 - 00:02:59:14 Scott at different ways to to really understand what Canadian consumers are feeling, because there's just there's so much out there and there's so much in chat and social and everywhere else. And that's one of the first things that we started looking at, was, using our, we call it DX analytics, but really, analyzing search and social signals to get a good understanding of how Canadian consumers are seeing brands.

00:02:59:15 - 00:03:28:15 Scott I mean, do they see them as Canadian or not Canadian? With all the confusion of being in Canada and product of Canada and such, but also the sentiment, and that's been giving us some useful insights, both for Canadian brands and for multinationals. Secondly, there's a lot of polling and a lot of attitudinal data floating around out there, but we wanted to go a little bit deeper, and we've been engaging our Canada Monitor team to really look at the trends and how the values have shifted underneath that.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:46:21 Scott And we've just launched a global study. We call it Barometer. And we did this during Covid as well. But it's a global study that we're going to have results for pretty soon and we'll be sharing them out with people and how consumers in different markets are really seeing tariffs and and what their responses are and with some of their shopping habits.

00:03:46:23 - 00:04:10:19 Scott And the third piece I think is important. It's been going back what we've learned. I mean, we've been through different crises before. I mentioned Covid. We've gone through different financial crises in the past as well. And we have a lot of learnings for brands and for advertising that we've gone back to look at and pull the dust off a bit, but also try to see which are relevant to bring back to the market for consideration.

00:04:10:20 - 00:04:13:23 Scott So those are your three areas for us basically.

00:04:14:01 - 00:04:27:01 Alison That's great. Scott. It will be fascinating to see how the global study around how countries around the world are reacting to tariffs. That will be very valuable insights for our listeners and certainly for Canadian brands and businesses. And Sean, what about you?

00:04:27:02 - 00:04:56:07 Sean Yeah. Thanks, Alison. For for those that you don't know Numerator we are the largest single source data lake in Canada. And so in a nutshell we collect 12 million receipts from 165,000 Canadians, including Amazon purchases, Walmart purchases as well as hundreds of demographics. And we put it all into our data lake. And with that, we seek to understand what people are actually doing with their purchases and how their opinions are changing, how their sentiment changes, and how it's impacting purchases.

00:04:56:09 - 00:05:29:15 Sean As it specifically relates to this, this Buy Canadian and tariff phenomenon, we've gone ahead and segmented our panel based on shoppers; claimed sentiment around their intentionality. Therefore, we now have segments for people that claim to buy Canadian, who want to avoid U.S. retailers or avoid U.S. brands. And so we're working with our clients to not only understand how their consumers are thinking about it, where they sit in this range, but also tracking their actual purchases and seeing if the sentiments they claim are results in real actions at the store.

00:05:29:17 - 00:05:54:10 Alison And that's a really powerful part of the conversation we can have today. It's one thing to understand how Canadians across the country are feeling and planning to behave, but to actually be able to back that up with actual change in behaviour will make for a very fascinating conversation. So thank you both for being here today. Now, Scott, what is your research showing when it comes to Canadian sentiment towards Canadian brands versus American brands versus international brands?

00:05:54:12 - 00:06:20:22 Scott This is an interesting one, Alison. And we're just starting to get into it. I'll share an example from coffee. What's more Canadian than coffee, right? But we're now digging into, ten different categories and different brands across this. And the first learning was that it's not that black and white, and it's not a clear correlation between how consumers see brands.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:38:20 Scott So let's call it provenance or how Canadian a brand is, or created a Canadian index, you know, from 0 to 100 of how Canadian your brand is seen. And then we looked at sentiment as well. So positive or negative. So what's associated with that? And we're getting this from search and social like I mentioned before. And it was really interesting.

00:06:38:21 - 00:06:58:12 Scott Let's take a case of a few different brands here. And you have a brand like Second Cup. And if you look at it, Second Cup has become even more Canadian in association recently. I think a lot of that had to do with This Hour Has 22 Minutes. They have that viral thing and that's one of the brands that they called out.

00:06:58:14 - 00:07:24:08 Scott And, but we saw that their sentiment hadn't changed versus a year ago. Now meanwhile, it has, because back in the end of last year, their sentiment took a nosedive due to some, let's just say, political statements of one of their franchisee's owners. And it was, it made the news and it took a dive. But what's happened to Second Cup is they have, shot right back up to where they were.

00:07:24:08 - 00:07:50:10 Scott So they've recovered their sentiment and been seen as more Canadian. Then you have the big brands like Tim Hortons, which is, with all the scrutiny, is being seen as a little less Canadian as people look into ownership. But their sentiment hasn't changed that much. People love their Timmie's. And there's almost the same from McDonald's. I mean, McDonald's was never considered a Canadian brand, but their sentiment hasn't changed much, meaning, 00:07:50:11 - 00:08:21:09 Scott or you could interpret, that it's not just about being Canadian. And that's what we're seeing with the maple washing. It's a lot more than that for a brand. The last example of that is Starbucks. And Starbucks, clearly not a Canadian brand. I mean, what could be more Seattle, than Starbucks? But their sentiment has really, really improved. So this tells us that there's, just using a microcosm here of coffee, that there's room for all brands to improve their relationships with consumers, whether they're Canadian or not.

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:26:12 Scott And it's about getting the messaging right and the servicing right and delivering great customer experience.

00:08:26:14 - 00:08:44:15 Alison Now, I know many Canadians are planning to buy Canadian. And Scott, as you called out, coffee is a fairly easy sector to do that in. Not all industries are as easy to buy Canadian if that's your appetite. So Sean, I'm curious to hear from you how Canadians are actually changing their buying behaviours.

00:08:44:17 - 00:09:08:05 Sean Yeah, absolutely. And I think Scott's absolutely right. And I love the lead of it's not simple. It's a little more complicated. And we always have to remember that the Buy Canadian, you know, sentiment and uproar, which is very real for Canadians today. In fact 60% of Canadians are saying they intend to buy Canadian, yet only 40% say they intend to buy less U.S.

00:09:08:06 - 00:09:35:07 Sean So it's very obvious that the sentiment is a positive one, a patriotic one versus one where they're seeking to punish U.S. retailers or brands. But it really is based on on the background of a, of a very difficult economy. And Buy Canada is really just one sentiment driving consumers' purchase decisions. In fact, 88% of consumers, much more than are worried about Buy Canada, are really focused on concerns around their everyday value and the impact tariffs are going to have every day.

00:09:35:09 - 00:09:56:16 Sean And so it's critical for business owners to understand that Buy Canada is one sentiment driving purchase decisions. But it may not be, to Scott's point, as simple as the only one. And so it's incredibly important to understand overall how people are reacting when they're faced with purchasing every day. For us in our business, what we've seen is something, you know, pretty interesting and pretty diverse.

00:09:56:16 - 00:10:30:15 Sean And really, to Scott's point, comes down to it's more complex than just Buy Canada and you really need to understand specific categories and consumers. For example, take U.S. retailers. So predominantly a lot of Canadians will say today that they are seeking to avoid U.S. retailers, some of the ones. But when you actually look at the purchase data, what you see is there's not a significant change in Canadians willing to sacrifice the convenience, the value, the location of a retail shop in order to seek out Canadian brands, or more importantly, to avoid U.S. retailers.

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:54:21 Sean In fact, it's so extreme that in our panel, the people that came to be U.S. avoiders, people who claim to be strongly seeking to avoid U.S. retailers also haven't changed their their shopping habits at all. The fact is that these people were always shopping U.S. retailers less, and they've just found that this sentiment around avoiding U.S. retailers is a nice label to put on a habit that they've already been doing.

00:10:54:23 - 00:11:22:09 Sean And so often we see that the sentiment doesn't overpower the cost of having to change a habit like a retailer choice. U.S. retailers continue to grow, especially where they're offering value. Now, where we see real differences is in category and brands. And absolutely, the anger driven by some of the things going on in the U.S. from tariffs is resulting in real shopping behaviours, where Canadians are willing to change their basket to match their sentiment.

00:11:22:12 - 00:11:52:19 Sean And we see this across the board. We've done work across everything from packaged bread to mayonnaise to pet food. What you see as if you can look at shoppers today, Canadian brands, since the tariffs are growing share at a faster rate than non-Canadian brands. And even more interestingly, to kind of reinforce the power of that message when we segment our business on shoppers that say express some very strong sentiment to buying Canadian, they are growing faster than the average consumer.

00:11:52:19 - 00:12:22:20 Sean So this is this is a a trend that has taken hold for Canadians. And in a lot of ways, and a lot of brands, they're willing to check labels in order to, to try to skew their purchases to Canadian. Now, the one thing I will say is that for all brand managers is you have to know your consumer, and you have to know your category, because we see massive differences across categories. Categories that are taste-oriented or are easy to determine the local nature of the product,

00:12:23:01 - 00:12:47:07 Sean we see big changes and a big willingness to move. But in categories that have either have a high cost of educating yourself on is it Canadian or not? I think Scott mentioned the word maple washing or understanding, or categories like HABA or baby care, where there is a high cost to change, we're seeing a much smaller impact, even with those Canadians that say they have a very high intent to shop Canadian.

00:12:47:09 - 00:12:52:10 Sean So again, and often that cost trumps the desire to be Canadian.

00:12:52:12 - 00:13:15:06 Scott Those are great insights, Sean. I mean, when you look category by category too, it's other trends or consumer behaviours in the past, I know in an earlier conversation we talked about sustainability and people wanting to do a certain thing. But then there's the price to it and the cost. And then you talked about the habit of switching. I mean, switching diapers is an easy thing to do if the diapers work.

00:13:15:08 - 00:13:21:04 Scott You know, we both have kids. But it is interesting. I mean, it's not just being Canadian that's going to do it.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:46:06 Sean Yeah, I agree Scott, often it is a economic choice that trumps. But we also have to remember that, you know, Canadians are at a tipping point. I think Stats Canada published the average Canadian's 97% of disposable income is now being spent. So you have to understand that there's a willingness, but there's also unfortunately, a lot of Canadians today don't have the ability or the flexibility to make a choice when it comes down to buy Canada versus not.

00:13:46:08 - 00:14:03:00 Alison What's the role of convenience in that decision to you? So if I have the best of intentions that I want to buy Canadian, and maybe it's more challenging than I thought to find a particular Canadian brand, or comes at a premium, I understand obviously the price implications. Some people just don't have the reality to be able to spend more.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:05:12 Alison But is convenience playing a role in it too?

00:14:05:14 - 00:14:27:17 Sean Absolutely. I think when you think about the regular purchasing drivers that are the overpowering reasons people choose to purchase, often for value, to find the selection they're looking for that match their product needs, Alison. And then the convenience, time, the value of time and the value in all our lives, with kids, with everything else, often trumps our intentionality of our good intentions or the things we like to say we will do.

00:14:27:19 - 00:14:49:18 Sean And I think the other thing marketers have to realize is the barriers to being omnichannel have declined precipitously. So, you know, we continue to see online, especially in categories like CABA. While penetration has not grown since the Covid, we continue to see loyalty and buy rate increase exponentially. So those that have tried online are getting more and more comfortable.

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:08:23 Sean And the barrier to shopping online is down. So convenience doesn't just have to be the five minute drive to your grocery store. It's convenience in a, in an omni channel as consumers shop across channels. And and that's hard to change. It is very hard to change and get rid of the convenience of going to the drugstore on the corner to get your beauty regimen.

00:15:09:01 - 00:15:18:01 Sean It's very hard to drive by several value-oriented retailers in order to find the one, because you want to shop based on that sentiment.

00:15:18:03 - 00:15:51:08 Scott Yeah, you know, a quick build there, actually two things. One of them is when you look at the in-store condition, too, I mean, I've done so much research over the years, both on the client side and on the current supplier side that I'm on. And shelf decisions are made in like a 200th of a second. And so right now, people are giving a little bit of extra time to, you know, use their app and scan a product or check the provenance of a specific product. That's not going to last long term, because that's just not the way people are wired when they're shopping.

00:15:51:08 - 00:16:12:09 Scott I think it's just a blip in time for that. Convenience is very important. And that's where even the brand work we do. We talk about salience. It's critical for your products to be salient. So the top of mind when people go to make a shopping decision, you know whether it's online or whether it's an in-store. If we start dropping the ball as marketers on focusing on building salience, we're going to be in big trouble.

00:16:12:11 - 00:16:33:17 Scott And a lot of people are sitting there, sitting and waiting right now, with all the uncertainty in the markets. But it's really a time to be getting your brand message out there. And, you know, the last piece of that's pricing, and pricing power that we talked about, and that's a whole cost and worth balance between brands. And you can't justify a premium just being Canadian, maybe for a week or two.

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:39:20 Scott but those are things we have to think about long term. And that's the importance of brand building right now for both convenience and for price.

00:16:39:22 - 00:17:07:01 Sean Yeah, I mean, I would love to add something. I think something Scott said, just really resonate with me. It really comes down in my mind of, do you have the product fit to your view of the consumers looking for? And but he way, if marketers are not seeking to understand at a deeper level what their consumers, both their current consumers of their products to understand what their sentiments are truly and are instead looking at the average Canadian, then, I think it was Harvard

00:17:07:03 - 00:17:29:14 Sean Business Review that said that any strategy built on the average is doomed to fail. And so I think understanding how do we get away from measuring the average so we can understand our consumer? So to Scott's point, we can do that connection, making sure our brands have salience is is unbelievable insight and something that we that marketers don't spend more time on right now versus worrying about the sentiment concerns and changing.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:46:00 Alison And, Scott, you also highlighted that Canadians who can afford to are willing to pay a bit of a premium. But the other thing that's very dangerous for marketers and brands right now is if they decide to take advantage of that and price gouge, there's been a couple of examples of that. And it's, there's never a good time to do that in my mind.

00:17:46:00 - 00:17:57:04 Alison But now is the worst time to do that because Canadians, if they feel that they're being taken advantage of while we're trying to do what we think is right, the risk for long term business and brand damage is incredible.

00:17:57:06 - 00:18:24:19 Scott Oh, 100%, Alison. Pricing is something that gets built up over time by a meaningful difference for a brand and building a differentiation and creating that whole value equation. And you take a look at the, now you can see they've bounced back pretty well, but take a look at the hit that Loblaws took and other retailers over the last couple of years for pricing-related issues right now, and they really had to change their way of doing business to start recapturing consumers.

00:18:24:21 - 00:18:42:07 Scott It's the same for brands and any price-gouging or negatives like that are going to have a long term consequence, and then you get into a price game where cheaper people will come along, becomes, lessen your brand and switching goes up and you're commoditized over time. Happened in the orange juice category, happens in a lot of categories.

00:18:42:09 - 00:18:53:08 Alison Now Sean, you typically in research see regional or generational differences. So when you looked at how Canadian consumer buying behaviour is changing, did you notice any big regional or generational differences?

00:18:53:10 - 00:19:14:15 Sean Yeah, absolutely. I think we've seen very, very specific differences both on a regional and a generational point of view, as you would expect. From a from a generational point of view, the the Buy Canadian shopper tends to over-index a little bit older, tends to be a little bit more white or European, and come from a smaller household than the general population.

00:19:14:17 - 00:19:43:19 Sean But the the biggest changes we see and probably the most impactful is, as Canadian marketers seek to drive their go to market strategies, is from a regional point of view. And largely you can read it east to west. We see that, you know, both in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, not only is the sentiment around buy Canadian much higher and much over-indexed than the rest of Canada, but we also see that the actual purchasing behaviour has been has been more impactful.

00:19:43:20 - 00:20:05:08 Sean And as you move kind of west, you hit Ontario and out west, you see that sentiment around buy Canadian as a driver of purchase and intentionality decreased quite a bit. So it's very much a East to West phenomenon, although, you know, anytime sentiments are above 30, 40%, they're almost always but they tend to over-index from a passion in Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

00:20:05:10 - 00:20:28:09 Sean And then from an actual purchase behaviour, Alison, what we see is, Quebec especially, we talked about retailers. U.S. retailers have largely been unimpacted by a U.S. branding or a perception of U.S. In Quebec, we see a little different. While those trends are still positive, they're much more muted than the rest of Canada. Instead what we see is a big halo effect for some of the,

00:20:28:09 - 00:20:55:22 Sean the truly Quebec brands that they see, brands like Metro and IGA. And absolutely, I think when you think as a marketer around, you know, Quebec and their purchase intent, you do have to think a little bit around, there has been a significant upswing in Canadian nationalism in Quebec for the first time in a while, but how long is that Canadian nationalism versus more around a really a local view of, of one of my local, which really, pardon my terrible French,

00:20:55:22 - 00:21:29:08 Sean but it is more around "a la mode du Québec" than it is around made in Canada. And what we do see is while Canadian brands are getting that same halo, very much in a market where Canadian brands or more U.S. brands have traditionally been under-shared, versus international brands like D'Italiano bread or L'Oreal skincare. We see, a little bit of more of a halo around those both those international brands, as well as purely local brands like Pride of Montreal that have have got a big hold from a buy local point of view, not just a Canadian sentiment.

00:21:29:10 - 00:21:38:13 Alison And Sean, do you think part of that halo around the international brands is if they can't find a local brand to avoid buying American, they'll go anything but American?

00:21:38:15 - 00:22:09:03 Sean Yeah. I mean, there's always been a history and especially in some of the more difficult categories like like health and beauty, Alison, or where it's difficult to tell what is what is buy Canada. Québecers have always over-indexed in more French brands or national brands from a comfort point of view. And so while local Quebec brands are doing well, we do see that there's still the gap between the international brand and a identified American brand, and there's a little bit of momentum behind that change as well.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:11:21 Sean So absolutely, it's it's there.

00:22:11:22 - 00:22:33:13 Scott You know what's interesting there as well. I mean for years and years and years we've been looking at advertising in Quebec versus outside of Quebec, and the rest of Canada, even getting down to other regions. And, and correctly assumed that, you know, national advertising doesn't work that well in Quebec. And it's been documented and we've seen that time and time again.

00:22:33:15 - 00:22:54:13 Scott But, we're also seeing some different approaches to advertising right now because of the tariffs. And, you know, I think about Kraft Heinz had a couple, one of them was about Heinz ketchup and that it's Ontario tomatoes and it's made in a Quebec plant. And really building on, you know, the the impact they have on the economy and agriculture and workers in those.

00:22:54:13 - 00:23:30:05 Scott And they did it again, during the Superbowl or Kraft dinner and the plant. And then on the other side of the coin, so you have national advertising that is really pulling on some Quebec heartstrings as well, or has the ability to. And then Aylmer did a really interesting and controversial ad, by the way, where, it was this spit commercial where they're eating soup and realized is made in the U.S. and spit it out on camera. It was really, really clever stuff, but it gets to the Made in Quebec part that Sean's talking about that also has legs outside of this region for the rest of the country.

00:23:30:07 - 00:23:38:04 Scott So I think it's a it's an interesting opportunity to look at some, national advertising at the same time, building on, you know, Quebec in different regions.

00:23:38:06 - 00:23:46:00 Alison And Scott building on that, we talked a little bit about maple washing. So what do you see are the risks of brands that are being labeled with maple washing?

00:23:46:02 - 00:24:09:02 Scott Well, first of all it's losing any point of differentiation or brand equity you've had, whether you're watch TV or the radio or things flashing up on your phone, it's just an incredible amount of advertisers are trying to take a shortcut right now, as we were touching on earlier just about being Canadian, like that's all there is to it. And we know that's not all there is to a brand at all.

00:24:09:04 - 00:24:27:21 Scott You know, brand has to deliver in so many different ways, stand out from the others, you know, command that price premium potentially that we talked about and that's built over years and years and years and throwing out messages that have nothing to do with your brand are the quickest way to, first of all, waste advertising dollars.

00:24:27:23 - 00:24:48:12 Scott But the second part of that is you could be taking away from some strong equity you have. The other part is you may or may not have credentials to do this. You know, there are brands that have a really deeply-rooted in the Canadian experience and community. And I think about brands like Canadian Tire, Tim Hortons, and you think about whoever owns them,

00:24:48:12 - 00:25:22:09 Scott you can think about a lot of brands like that. But if you are a multinational brand, you may not have to say anything. You may not need to go near that space right now. Just talk about what your brand is and all the things that's made it great for so many years. Because as soon as you're inauthentic, or unauthentic, I always get that one wrong, and as soon as you're making claims that people don't believe, whether sometimes they're true or not, but you go too far, you break the trust of consumers, and you're going to see a very fast erosion in your brand equity as a result.

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:41:15 Scott So, you know, I'm not saying this because we do this kind of work. Go to anybody, but test your messaging first and make sure that it's believable, it's resonating, and it's also going to lead to purchase intent, which at the end of the day you're trying to drive sales. There are no shortcuts. And that's what we're seeing with maple washing.

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:02:10 Alison Now you both are in the market daily and you've got a lot of very good recent research on how Canadians are acting in the current climate and how they intend to act. So of all the research findings you've seen over the last few weeks, what surprised you the most that any marketer who's joined us today should know? And, Scott, do you want to kick things off?

00:26:02:12 - 00:26:31:06 Scott It's not just about being more or less Canadian. And that's what we're finding from our search and social work. The sentiment is not necessarily tied to being Canadian. Gets back to that advertising piece and messaging piece that we just touched on as well, that there's plenty of space for multinational brands to thrive in this market. And, you know, it's not about like trying to appear more Canadian or, you know, looking at your credentials and Sean said it well too, like your brand message is what you say.

00:26:31:06 - 00:26:50:04 Scott Your brand equity is what people believe about your brand at the end of the day. So I think, like the first surprise, because I was caught up with the passion as a consumer and a shopper and a Canadian. I was caught up like everybody else. And then the research is showing that I'm seeing so far, that it's not everything.

00:26:50:06 - 00:27:05:17 Scott And so, you know, we have so many great multinational brands in this country, and they've all been part of our legacy and their life experiences as well. But there's plenty and plenty of room for them to continue to build their brands. That's the one that really caught my attention.

00:27:05:19 - 00:27:30:00 Sean Absolutely echo Scott's view around sentiment, translating to actually and understanding that the Buy Canada may not be everything. And I and I think the biggest surprise I've seen, you know, we live in a world where it feels like the clickbait, a lot of doom and gloom. I've been incredibly surprised at how many opportunities for demand growth and excitement there are with Canadian consumers today.

00:27:30:02 - 00:27:46:20 Sean And I go back to the, I feel like a broken record of, if you don't look at the average and you understand your consumer and what's driving their purchase decision, and whether it be in the Buy Canada or U.S. avoiders, whether it be in why they're choosing a new Canadians as there's so many opportunities to drive your your demand growth,

00:27:46:20 - 00:28:07:13 Sean if you understand why someone is making the decision they're making. And so that that is, I think, been something that has surprised me about that in a world where it feels like there's not a lot of opportunities to drive strategic decisions and actions, there's actually a lot of opportunities where shoppers are spending and they're willing to spend if you get your message right.

00:28:07:13 - 00:28:14:05 Sean But you have to understand how Canadians are operating as individuals, not as an average consumers.

00:28:14:07 - 00:28:39:04 Alison Sean, I'll also say that that's very encouraging for everyone that's tuned in today to know that with the right understanding and the right of your consumer and the right marketing approach, Canadians are willing to spend. So that gives us all lots of hope. Now, you both have clearly have deep insights into Canadian consumer behaviour on the actions. So what advice would you give marketers as they navigate through the rising Canadian patriotism and global economic uncertainty?

00:28:39:06 - 00:28:43:01 Alison And Sean, you've shared a bit of advice already. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

00:28:43:03 - 00:29:09:08 Sean Yeah, I mean, I think again, understand your consumer, understand them at a level that's deep enough to to actually identify real differences so you can make decisions against them. I would absolutely add to that the power of consumer, but also the power of your product and making sure that your product is really meeting the jobs to be done of your consumer and that you're differentiated enough to command not only the right to be bought, but also at a premium.

00:29:09:08 - 00:29:27:23 Sean So whether that's jobs to be done from fulfilling a Buy Canada if you have that authenticity, but also jobs to be done when it comes across all the different, you know, choices and reasons why someone would buy your brand. So understand the consumer and match your product differentiation of the jobs to be done I think are just good work.

00:29:28:01 - 00:29:50:22 Scott Wise words Sean and I'll add three. I'll add three things when it comes to, you know, advertising and marketing as well. One of them is do not go dark. This is the worst time to go to dark. Any time is a bad time to go to dark, and it will take years to rebuild your current levels of salience

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:19:18 Scott if you stop your messaging now. And that will cost a lot more than maintaining your presence with consumers. We call it a recovery period. And you're gonna have a long recovery if you stop messaging. Number two is, we talked about the sea of sameness around Canadian credential advertising. And a lot of the advertising can get pretty bland and be, you know, one ad kind of same as the other ad with messaging and everything else.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:42:21 Scott The one thing to remember is just like, people need a break from that. And in all of our advertising research over different crises and moments in time, don't forget the power of appropriate humour in advertising as a way to stand out and give people a mental break from everything that's going on. They're stressed out enough. It's not too soon to get back to a good joke.

00:30:42:21 - 00:31:08:13 Scott I think people, and we see it again in our research, that people appreciate that, and your advertising will stand out. And the third one, and this is a pitch Alison, it's something we're doing, the case for Canadian Creative. We're going to be speaking to, advertising testing and advertising effectiveness in the U.S. versus Canada. But we've seen over and over again that U.S. ads do not necessarily perform well in Canada.

00:31:08:15 - 00:31:34:03 Scott Right now is not the time to be using U.S. advertising in this market, with this heightened sensitivity, it's pretty clear to consumers around their messaging and how the brand and people are shown in ads. This is not a good time. And I always say, it's, you know, penny rich and pound foolish to try to save a few bucks on your production versus the millions and millions that you spend on media.

00:31:34:05 - 00:31:53:12 Scott Now's not the time to repurpose ads from other markets unless you have tested them and you're sure that they're going to resonate well. It could actually take away from your brand. So three things with advertising to be careful of - don't go dark, don't be afraid of a good joke, and be careful about using creative from other markets.

00:31:53:14 - 00:32:18:06 Alison That's great counsel, and thanks for pitching the CMA Case for Canada event in June. That's going to be a great continuation of this conversation for sure. And then on your don't go dark, the other side of that is, because many businesses do go dark in an economic downturn, those that don't, or better yet, heavy up their investment, see significant business returns and long-standing business returns.

00:32:18:06 - 00:32:37:01 Alison So there's a lot of reasons not to be cutting marketing spend right now. Now, before I let you both get on with your busy day, I want to end with a question that's more around career advice. You both have incredible, very enviable and long-standing careers, and I know our listeners will absolutely benefit from hearing about your journey.

00:32:37:06 - 00:32:47:05 Alison So to close off the discussion, I'd love you each to share one piece of advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. And Sean, do you want to kick things off?

00:32:47:07 - 00:33:08:11 Sean Absolutely. I mean, the biggest advice I'll give and I'll, I'll focus on people early in their careers because I feel like often in today's world, that's where people are looking on, what's next? How far do I go? And and they're filled with all the wonderful things they're going to do in their career. My big advice is really focus on building your equity, your talent, your skill set.

00:33:08:11 - 00:33:44:13 Sean And don't be as as rushed to run to the next, but really enjoy the the work you're doing, the things and the challenges and and I and I give that advice for a couple reasons. A - you know, my experience I've gotten the honour to work in CPG for, for many years and then make the jump into tech. That ability to move, both across brands and across industries and even into leisure space, was done because, you know, I, I built a very good core skill set around CPG and understanding and the market, and so building that foundation has served me incredibly well since I started and focused. And then and then the second one is the

00:33:44:13 - 00:34:14:02 Sean other big advice I give to anybody is let your, you know, choose your career path once you figure out what what drives value for you. We've talked about the cost of time. We talked about convenience. You know, that cost is very small when you enjoy what you do. And I and I find I built that early in my career where I, where I really realized that, you know, I get a lot of value by creating value for others, whether it be insights or CPG, working with people like Scott, for my family, my kids.

00:34:14:02 - 00:34:32:00 Sean And so I've always since then sought out roles that allowed me to maximize how much value I can create for others, and it's allowed me to to move quickly. It's allowed me to get through these tough times, or sometimes where you're feeling like, I don't want to get up. It makes the cost of time very small if you love what you do.

00:34:32:18 - 00:34:56:16 Scott I mean, the first one for me is pretty simple, and it's just about embracing change. I mean, research is all about questions and finding new ways to answer them. And, you know, I think about, through my career, about the resistance to things like online research, the automation, and now people are a little scared of AI. And it's, if you're scared of these things, you're going to fail.

00:34:56:19 - 00:35:18:09 Scott I mean, it's, how are you going to leverage these to get the answers in a whole new and exciting way? So keeping an open mind and keeping on top of all the rapid changes in technology. And number two is, just, take it from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. This is a very small community. Be excellent to one another, always.

00:35:18:11 - 00:35:30:23 Scott It's a small world. You're going to be working with people again and again, and if you treat people with a lot of respect and a lot of interest, you're going to you're going to do well and others around you will do well too.

00:35:30:23 - 00:35:51:00 Alison Outstanding advice. And I love the Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure reference. Thank you both. Really great conversation. You've shared really important insights and research-backed knowledge that everyone that's tuned in will absolutely benefit from. So, I also know you're incredibly busy, especially right now, so thank you both for making time to join me today and for a really great conversation.

00:35:51:02 - 00:35:51:19 Scott Thanks Alison.

00:35:51:21 - 00:35:54:15 Sean It was fantastic. Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Scott.

Scott Thanks Sean.

00:35:54:17 - 00:36:09:04 Presenter Just thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

How are successful Canadian brands adapting to today's rapidly changing market? In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Allmen, Executive Vice President of Strategy and Partnerships at CAA National. They explore strategies for staying relevant and growing in Canada, from successful pivots to cautionary tales like Hudson's Bay. Discover the evolving role of trust in brand loyalty, what it truly means to be a Canadian brand today, and how companies respond to shifting consumer behaviours in the face of economic pressures.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:21:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:21:21 - 00:00:44:22 Alison In today's episode, we are exploring how one of Canada's oldest brands has evolved to stay relevant and grow for over 100 years. Clearly, that's not an easy feat, especially when you think about how much the world and Canadians have changed over that period. I am absolutely delighted to welcome Steve Allmen, the Executive Vice-President of strategy and partnerships with Canadian Automobile Association, who is joining me today.

00:00:45:00 - 00:01:15:02 Alison Before joining the CAA National, Steve held senior leadership roles in loyalty, retail, telecom and financial services, working for great businesses like Amia, Aeroplan and HBC, to name a few. With expertise in strategic alliances, program design and business development, Steve focuses on driving value through partnerships, data driven insights and loyalty marketing. His diverse background really reflects a passion for delivering growth and transformative results, and this work in the CAA is the latest example.

00:01:15:06 - 00:01:36:01 Alison Today, Steve and I are going to dig into what it takes to stay relevant and grow as a business and brand in Canada. Whether your brand has been around for decades or is in more nascent stages, there is absolutely lots of valuable learning that you can benefit from in our conversation. We'll also cover when you should pivot and futureproof your business by changing what's working well for your company in the past, and that's never an easy decision.

00:01:36:03 - 00:01:52:05 Alison We'll talk about the crucial role trust plays and what it means to be a Canadian brand, amidst the current political and economic upheaval. The CAA also has a unique lens into how Canadians are changing their behaviours across the country, which is valuable for all the marketers who have tuned in today. Welcome, Steve.

00:01:52:07 - 00:01:54:03 Steve Thanks, Alison. Great to be here.

00:01:54:05 - 00:02:10:04 Alison So, Steve, let's start with what's going on today and the recent resurgence of Canadian patriotism. I'd love you to share how CAA has seen Canadians adopting their behaviours in the face of tariffs and the increased loyalty to our country. And also, are you seeing any regional differences?

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:30:05 Steve Yeah. Thanks, Alison. It's a, it's a great topic. It's sort of an unfortunate topic that we have to cover today. But the reality is we're all living it. So one of the things that we've seen at CAA, I think as much as anybody else is we're very happy that we've got Canadian in our name, because it makes it very easy for people to understand who we are.

00:02:30:07 - 00:02:57:23 Steve We're we're a diverse group of clubs across Canada. We represent about 7.4 million Canadian members. We call them members, not as much consumers, but members of our program. We're very proud of the fact that we are coast to coast with offices from BC to Atlantic Canada. What we're seeing as much as anything else, is a lot of clarity around travel, a lot of clarity around, you know, the importance of being Canadian and a lot of pride.

00:02:58:01 - 00:03:26:12 Steve I can't quote all the numbers for you right now because we're still learning them as we go along. We are certainly seeing a dip in U.S. travel. We're certainly seeing an uptick in European, Caribbean, Mexico travel. So CAA is not just a roadside business. We're also a travel business. And so we have a pretty good sense as to what's going on from what our members are researching, what our travel agents are hearing from their consumers, and how we're promoting the business.

00:03:26:14 - 00:03:51:15 Steve It doesn't mean we're not promoting U.S. partners, but we're very aware of the fact that Canadians have changed their travel behaviour. One of the things I'm going to be most interested to see is because CAA is part of a North America wide alliance with Triple-A, which is very much the same business as CAA, we get a lot of trans-border traffic, so we get Americans coming up to Canada, we get Canadians going down to the United States.

00:03:51:17 - 00:04:12:19 Steve And in essence, if you break down as a CAA member in the middle of Tennessee and you phone CAA, a nice Triple A truck will show up. If you break down in the middle of Ontario and you're a Triple-A member, the same happens. So with summer travel coming up, it's going to be really interesting to see what impact that has on our business.

00:04:13:02 - 00:04:42:01 Steve Wha,t what impact that has on our call rates and what impact that has just on our forecasting for the future. We don't know yet. We're still learning. The only other thing I'd say is we've got some great partners, many of whom are Canadian businesses. And so we're very much promoting them. Again, we're not doing anything to stop people from coming to our partners, but we're very proud of some of our Canadian partners and promoting them as we go through the motions of whatever is next going to come out of the United States and the government.

00:04:42:03 - 00:04:52:16 Alison Now you highlighted some of the non-U.S. destinations that Canadians are now choosing Caribbean and others. Are we seeing them also booking more vacations in Canada?

00:04:52:18 - 00:05:16:14 Steve Yeah, it's a great it's a great question. I think we're going to start to see a lot more road tripping, where we're hearing a lot more about it. We still do a lot of regional partners, very much regional partners that have the flavour of B.C. or the flavour of Atlantic Canada. Again, I don't have final numbers yet. It might be an interesting thing to revisit it in a year, and then we can measure against it.

00:05:16:15 - 00:05:38:10 Steve But we certainly are having members asking about, what can I do in Niagara Falls? What can I do in beautiful Victoria? Where can I go in P.E.I.? And again, some of those are self-serving events versus using a travel agent. But I think we're going to see a real uptick in consumers either renting a car, we've got RV partners,

00:05:38:10 - 00:05:56:16 Steve We've got hotel partners, we've got dining partners. Regional events, regional fairs and all those other things that are really built for our members. So I'm very confident we're going to see an uptick in those. Just everything you're reading in the press, it makes sense. And our consumers are very representative of the Canadian population.

00:05:56:18 - 00:06:12:16 Alison Now, we're obviously seeing a huge Buy Canadian movement from your perspective with living, working with a brand that's been a part of Canada for 112 years. What does it mean to be a Canadian brand and how has that evolved during the current political and economic upheaval?

00:06:12:18 - 00:06:35:00 Steve Yeah, it's it's a really interesting time for us. You know, CAA is built on a couple of things. We're built on our very traditional roadside business. We're also very much built on advocacy and safety and trust. And I'll give you a couple of examples. You know, we recently did, for example, for those of you who are EV drivers, I'm not,

00:06:35:00 - 00:06:59:18 Steve But for those of you who are EV drivers, your biggest thing that you're worried about is range. So we did a very Canadian thing. We tested cars in the winter. That might seem unusual, but a lot of the EV cars that are out there have their ranges calculated based on California. We're not California. So in February, we actually did a test drive with using 14 EVs from beautiful Ottawa to even more beautiful Mont Tremblant.

00:06:59:20 - 00:07:22:03 Steve We actually drove the cars until they were empty of electrical charge and fuel and wanted to see how long would they take? What was the charging time to reboot them? How did we need to kind of get all those little nuances working so that people are comfortable? And we did it with a lot of Canadian pride. We had people from all over Canada driving these vehicles up into Mont Tremblant.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:40:01 Steve It was fantastic. So the press that comes out of it is very much about CAA is trustworthy. And here's a Canadian view of EVs. So Canadian pride comes up. And again we are the Canadian Automobile Association, so we're reminded of it every day.

00:07:40:03 - 00:08:01:00 Alison So now let's take a step back. Thriving is a business. For 112 years it was to state the obvious very, very rare. And it absolutely has to provide valuable learning for marketers, and the company at any stage. So can you share how the CAA has evolved? And we'll narrow the timeframe down to the last decade, relevance and driving growth.

00:08:01:02 - 00:08:40:06 Steve Yeah. It's you know, we are 100 and I think we're 110 plus years old. And we started in a time of horse and carriage and bicycles and cars that were a little bit rickety. So we have evolved. I think the biggest thing that we've looked at is really the importance of trust around the data that we gather on our members and how we communicate with our members as we've migrated from very much a direct mail house - all of our clubs were very big on direct mail, either for acquisition or renewal or marketing around the partnerships, far more now to a digital journey.

00:08:40:06 - 00:08:56:10 Steve And that digital journey has its pros and cons behind it. If you think about the journey of somebody who's broken down on the side of the road, and I'll just use a very real example. You're driving down in Toronto, you break down on the 401, you don't want to be there. So what do you do? You call CAA.

00:08:56:12 - 00:09:12:09 Steve The old days, you would call CAA and they'd say, yep, we're going to send a tow truck and they'll be there in 40 minutes. Now with our apps, you can actually, in very much an Uber or Lyft like experience, go on to the app, track where the driver is, understand where their journey is, they'll communicate with you, you know who's showing up.

00:09:12:14 - 00:09:38:13 Steve And so you've got not just that trust that somebody is coming, but you actually can see them coming. And trust me, that works really, really well when it comes to how our members are surviving. Also done things like, you know, the relevance of the importance of the safety of that event. So if your car is, the battery's dead on your driveway, that's a very different experience than your battery's dead or your car's broken down in the middle of the highway.

00:09:38:13 - 00:10:03:11 Steve So we'll kind of gauge our our response times to it. From a marketing standpoint, very much again, respectful of privacy rules and regulations. You know, the journey flow, the buy flow from somebody who's, signing up for a membership or renewing their membership. How are they paying for it? So all the communication pieces have to address both the regional flare.

00:10:03:13 - 00:10:27:02 Steve Remember we're CAA, but we're BCA in BC, we're the Alberta Motor Association in Alberta, we're CA Quebec, CA Saskatchewan. So each of the clubs has a little bit of a nuance to how they market that message. And then how do we promote our partners? How do we promote our partners like Recipe, Harvey's, Swiss Chalet, Shell, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Choice Hotels.

00:10:27:07 - 00:10:48:12 Steve We again have to be very clear on the data. So if you're a regular Shell user, please don't send me an acquisition offer to go to Shell. If you're an infrequent user, maybe it's a re-engagement. So we're able to use, like any good marketers, the data to market better, promote better. Those are things that they didn't have ten years ago, 15 years ago.

00:10:48:14 - 00:11:10:03 Steve With the birth of the AI, it's going to be even more interesting to see how we start to use AI to both predict behaviour, but also to market more effectively for our members. So I think we're very reflective of some of the other great members of the Canadian Marketing Association who are using great tools and methodologies, and data.

00:11:10:03 - 00:11:18:01 Steve And we have some great data partners like Environics Analytics and some other great technology partners to really make sure that we're doing the right marketing message.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:37:04 Alison Now, the regional and national piece is relevant to a lot of our members and listeners as well. So how do you balance the desire to personalize messaging, reach and marketing regionally, and also have it have a CAA branded presence?

00:11:37:06 - 00:12:01:17 Steve Yeah, it's it's a funny question because if I'm a BCA member, I really don't know what's going on in Atlantic Canada. I may not necessarily be too worried about it unless I'm driving there and I break down, and then it's really important. So, so we have to balance out both the, purpose of CAA from the standpoint of travel, roadside insurance, etc., from a national perspective.

00:12:01:22 - 00:12:27:03 Steve But we also have to understand that there's a very different demographic between somebody who lives in downtown Vancouver versus somebody who lives in Moncton, or somebody who lives in northern Ontario. So our clubs are really, really focused on making sure that there's a nice mix of, you know, the local inn or the local hotel or the local restaurant that can support that club

00:12:27:05 - 00:12:51:22 Steve that may not be relevant to everybody across the country. While at the same time, CAA goes and pursues very large national partners to provide that national fit for both our clubs and for the partners. So it's a bit of a balancing act. Shell is a primary example. We used to have five regional fuel partners. Great for the regions, really complicated for us as a business.

00:12:52:06 - 00:13:17:12 Steve In 2021 we launched Shell in Alberta. We rolled them out nationally in 2022. So now we've got this national footprint with a national reach, which means a member from Quebec can go and fill up in BC and get the same value as they would as if they're filling up at home. So it's a bit of a mix between how we support both the partners, but also how we support the growth of our brand.

00:13:17:12 - 00:13:32:02 Steve And again, that's new learning for us as we think about, you know, the reach in a very crowded marketplace of incentives and loyalty and discounts and benefits. So we kind of always have to be ahead of the game to make sure that we're achieving that goal.

00:13:32:04 - 00:13:50:19 Alison Now, no matter how much you want to change, change is hard, and timing certainly plays a key role too, especially when you are driving change while business results are good. So how does the CAA team determine when you should pivot and future-proof your business by changing what's working well for your company?

00:13:50:21 - 00:14:13:08 Steve Yeah, so I think the easiest way to explain it is that we have both strategic thinking and we have operational execution. And let me explain that a little bit. So we have a great collaboration between the clubs nationally. We have great collaboration between CAA and Triple-A, but we also have great collaboration between CAA and clubs around the world.

00:14:13:08 - 00:14:36:07 Steve There's almost 200 countries that have mobility clubs we all share, so we might actually get an idea from a club in the Netherlands or in Australia and be able to bring it in. I'm really proud of the fact that CAA has actually been a leader in this, so let me unpack that a little bit. We're eight clubs in Canada, and so a club in Canada might try something new.

00:14:36:13 - 00:14:57:13 Steve And I'll give you an example. One of our clubs a couple of years ago thought, you know, I'm really concerned about making sure that we're targeting a younger demographic. How are we going to do that? How can we get away from just, you know, traditional CAA to new CAA? So they actually launched the products in their club, it was Northeast Ontario.

00:14:57:15 - 00:15:21:07 Steve So they actually launched the product that was CAA without roadside. So you might sit there and say, how is that going to work? But a CAA member can join every day and get all the benefits of CAA - discount on dining, discounts at fuel, great rates on insurance, great rates on travel, the only thing they can't do is call roadside.

00:15:21:07 - 00:15:43:12 Steve Now, theoretically, if they called and they needed to get roadside, we would enrol them in the program. But it's not targeted at that group. So that started in one club and it rolled right across the country. It is now in every club in Canada. It's called different things in the clubs. It's Every Day in most of the clubs, Alberta calls it Community and BCA and Quebec call it Go.

00:15:43:12 - 00:16:08:14 Steve So BCA Go and CAQuebec Go. So that innovation actually started in a club and they piloted it, and they tested it and they stress-tested it, and did all the other things and it rolled across the country. Why is it really exciting? Because it's now being tested in six of the Triple-A clubs as a non- roadside product. So a little bit of Canadian pride as we roll our product down into the United States.

00:16:08:16 - 00:16:29:18 Steve And that pivot really came out of a need and an understanding. We needed to evolve. We needed to evolve our business. We needed to evolve beyond roadside as people are car-sharing more, as people are, you know, buying new cars, leasing vehicles, how can we kind of create an avenue for them to come in and work more closely with us?

00:16:29:18 - 00:16:52:13 Steve And it's been very successful. You know the numbers, we're now nationally. The other thing we did with that business? Subscription model. Why subscription model? We know it works with the younger demographic. So instead of an upfront fee, it's a monthly fee. So that's kind of one example of a pivot. The next pivots I think are going to be around the connected car. As we think about our cars,

00:16:52:15 - 00:17:09:14 Steve I still remember the days, I don't know about you, Alison, where you were pushing buttons to change stations and I got am and nothing but. I am showing my age a little bit. But the connected car, the car knows it's time to change your oil. It's time to get gas. Here's the closest station. Do you want me to guide you there?

00:17:09:14 - 00:17:34:03 Steve All those things that are there. So we're very excited about where the connected car is going to go. And how the car connects to the home and how the home connects to behaviour. And are there things that we could actually do to change our members behaviour safely while they're driving? I have to get that in for our road site team, but safely while they're driving, to allow the vehicle to help them do things.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:51:23 Steve Time to order an oil change. We have services now that will change your tires right on your driveway. So instead of booking a time where you have to go somewhere, they actually come to you. You're having a cup of coffee and they'll even detail your car. One of our guys in Atlantic Canada showed me pictures of his car being detailed.

00:17:52:01 - 00:18:10:16 Steve He's got three kids. He doesn't have time to go and get the car cleaned. So those kinds of pivots change over time. Not all of them work. Like any good business, trial and error, but we're very proud of some of the things that we've done. And we're actually leaders within the global federation from an innovation standpoint.

00:18:10:18 - 00:18:13:03 Alison You should have a lot of Canadian pride around that.

00:18:13:05 - 00:18:36:12 Steve Yeah, I think so. I think so. Well, actually, if I can add one more thing, our rewards program is a platform that was built in Canada. That platform is now the platform of Triple A. It is now the platform of another program called One Road, which is our federation or international federation. So it's in Canada, the U.S., it's in Europe, and it's about to go into Asia.

00:18:36:12 - 00:18:46:04 Steve That's a CAA-built platform that we use as the engine behind our our rewards program. So that's even more Canadian pride.

00:18:46:06 - 00:18:47:20 Alison Absolutely. Well done.

00:18:47:22 - 00:18:48:17 Steve Thank you.

00:18:48:18 - 00:19:01:16 Alison Now you mentioned that not everything works. And certainly in my experience, some of my most powerful learning has come from when things didn't work. So are there any lessons learned the hard way that are worth sharing with our marketing audience?

00:19:01:18 - 00:19:24:09 Steve Yeah. You know, I think I think the hard part behind it is that, you know, marketers, and I'm not a marketer per se. I'm a strategic alliance guy. But we all have egos and we don't like our egos bruised. There are probably examples of a direct mail campaign that didn't work. We've tried some acquisition campaigns that didn't work.

00:19:24:10 - 00:19:49:13 Steve The biggest lesson is, don't be afraid to try it, but also be really clear on understanding what the data tells you. Understanding what worked. It could have been weather, it could have been geopolitical. It could have been weather impacted by geopolitical with competitive. There's always a reason behind it. But don't be afraid to go back and try something again with a minor tweak.

00:19:49:15 - 00:20:22:03 Steve The other thing that is really core is document it, so that ten years from now, somebody doesn't pull something out and say, why don't we try this? We need to make sure that we've got a good tracking of what we tried, why it worked, why it didn't work, and all the lessons that go along with it. And I think the last thing is communicate it. Really, really talk to all of the things that happened and we've got a great open, collaborative group of clubs, senior leaders, CEOs, board members who very much want to share and learn and grow together.

00:20:22:04 - 00:20:32:14 Steve And so, whether you're a small company or a multinational, it's always about just making sure that you, you learn from the past, but you plan for the future.

00:20:32:16 - 00:20:45:02 Alison Now, Steve, the sad downfall of HBC is an example of our most storied brand in many ways not adopting. Now, since you worked there early in your career, I'm keen to hear your perspective on what they should have done differently.

00:20:45:03 - 00:21:04:12 Steve Yeah, it's it's very sad. And for those who remember, I'm actually, I actually was an Eaton's guy, a Simpsons guy and then a HBC guy. So I've kind of seen department stores all the way along. It's very sad, and it's very sad because I think they lost their way. And the way that I think about it is in three buckets.

00:21:04:12 - 00:21:29:04 Steve Number one was, they had an incredible set of brands. It wasn't just one brand. They had an incredible set of brands. For those of us who ever shopped at the Bay or HBC, you know, I think about places like The Room, I think about places like the West End Shop. These brands that were anchors within the anchor of the Hudson's Bay that dragged you in there and you were loyal to that brand.

00:21:29:06 - 00:21:58:15 Steve There are people in my family, including myself, I was very loyal to the West End Shop. I was never going to some of the other retailers, I was always very loyal to it. And those brands disappeared. So you had these large anchor stores that lost their joie de vive, if you like. They lost their reason for you going there. If you think about something like the Arcadian Court or the Carlu at Eaton's, if you've never been there, but these were destinations for people to go to.

00:21:58:19 - 00:22:25:06 Steve The Simpsons Christmas windows, then became the Hudson's Bay windows. Again, destinations to get people down there. But that worked for a certain generation, that didn't work for every generation, and I think they kind of lost just the way to grab attention. Bonnie Brooks did a phenomenal job. They did Bay Days, they did scratch and save, so they lost what it meant to be a good retailer, like a really, really good retailer.

00:22:25:08 - 00:22:45:12 Steve I blame that on the people that were real estate people buying the Bay, not retailers buying the Bay. I think the other thing is, you know, the demise of Zellers. Not everybody like Zellers, but boy, oh boy, you could get everything you wanted in Zellers. And they kind of let it die. I know they brought it back, but it was a bad execution.

00:22:45:16 - 00:23:12:10 Steve You walk into the Queen Street Bay store and there's a couple table tops of Zellers stuff thrown in the corner. Horrible, horrible, horrible. I think the third thing for me is the data. I think when they closed, when they sold their portfolio, I know the guys at Neo did a great job with the credit card, but I think they kind of lost that hook on the, on the points program, the loyalty program and everything else that went along with that.

00:23:12:11 - 00:23:37:07 Steve And the biggest area for me is the HBC signature, the heritage of The Bay. We live in, you know, north of Toronto, and we have Bay throws and Bay blankets in most of the rooms. That's an incredible opportunity that I think they lost by not having a real signature shop. So to me, it's that whole destination piece of creating why people go to a retail store.

00:23:37:09 - 00:23:50:01 Steve Simons does a great job. The department store is not dead. Simons does a great job, and the Bay could have learned from what Simons has done if they really wanted to understand, but I think they got rid of the retailers, and that's unfortunate.

00:23:50:03 - 00:24:04:20 Alison Now, I'm still holding out a little bit of hope that someone's going to step in and buy the HBC brand and the famous stripes. So if that comes to be, what advice would you offer to new owners to relaunch and rejuvenate this HBC signature line?

00:24:04:21 - 00:24:24:08 Steve Yeah, I think, I think it is the legacy, and it's a great time to do it, right? With the rebirth of national pride and unification. And if you think about what HBC did, they didn't just create a retail store, they actually built Canada. Look at the history of them. There's a great book that was done on the history of the blankets.

00:24:24:08 - 00:24:43:00 Steve So right now would be an incredible time to go out and do the signature. So if you think about the clothing from the Olympics, if you think about the signature brand, the blankets, I always wanted one of those canoes. I never got one of those canoes. I would love to have one. So if somebody could do it, they could do a store within a store.

00:24:43:00 - 00:25:09:02 Steve So Simons would be a great example. Roots. Even Harry Rosen or somebody like that could be a great example of creating a store within a store of the signature shot. I think also maybe rebirthing some of the brands. West End, The Room. Going back to the legacy of HBC, you could really tug at the heartstrings of Canadians who were trying to figure out what makes us Canada, and that would be a great example.

00:25:09:04 - 00:25:37:16 Steve I was very sad when they said that the last six stores are going away now, so I'm not hopeful, but I am hopeful. I still have a very deep sense of love and trust for The Bay, and I really feel for the 9000 employees who were there and the legacy. And I think the Canadian government should step in and grab some of the heritage stuff, but I think it's really a matter of focusing in on the right brand, right time.

00:25:37:18 - 00:25:40:17 Steve Play the Canadian card and re-own it.

00:25:40:18 - 00:25:46:12 Alison And you're right there, such a pivotal time right now. And they're so embedded in the history of Canada.

00:25:46:14 - 00:26:04:16 Steve Yeah I agree I've been going, look at in Manitoba, they have the museum and go and look, you know, when you have the charter that's for sale, unfortunately, which sits at the Queen Street store, that's an incredible document to go and look at it, but read the history of HBC. It's an incredible story.

00:26:04:18 - 00:26:19:13 Alison Now, Steve, switching gears, you have an incredible breadth of loyalty marketing expertise across quite diverse industries, and that gives you a really unique lens. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on how loyalty marketing will change in the coming 2 to 5 years.

00:26:19:15 - 00:26:51:03 Steve It's a hard one. Because traditional loyalty is not dead, but traditional loyalty is shifting really rapidly. I've had the pleasure of working for some great organizations, including Air Miles, Hudson's Bay, Aeroplan, which became Amia, running my own consulting business and now working for a company that has loyalty built on trust, not built on currency. So I think what we're starting to hear a lot more of is things like experiential loyalty, the very personalized approach to loyalty.

00:26:51:05 - 00:27:13:00 Steve One size does not fit all anymore. Those days are done. If you think that all you can do is put a bunch of points out and everybody is going to go, hey, that's really cool, I'm going to join your program, it doesn't work that way anymore. So we have to create these environments in loyalty that feed the, the sort of basis of what do you expect from the loyalty program?

00:27:13:09 - 00:27:37:15 Steve What do you expect the loyalty program to deliver to you? And how do you expect that experience? Is it a digital-only experience? So I'll give you an example. I'm an Air Canada Aeroplan super Elite member, which means I fly a lot. So there's very strong expectations that we have, as Aeroplan members, but as super elite members, even more, or 75K or 50K or whatever else.

00:27:37:17 - 00:28:01:05 Steve So how do you execute, and Air Canada has done a really good job on changing the way that that execution happens, from little things like a concierge who meets you, or you get an email, or you get the thank you card. I'm a Bonvoy guy. Yes. I stay in a lot of hotels, so when they give me an upgrade, that feels good, but I want to make sure water is in my room because that's really important.

00:28:01:05 - 00:28:28:01 Steve I don't want to be in the last end of the hallway. So that personalization, the leveraging of data is really, really, really core still to what we do as loyalty marketers. I think the other part, Alison, is the redemption piece. So you fly a lot. I'm sure you're, you belong to frequent flier programs. You want to make sure that when you're doing the redemption, it's a seamless experience.

00:28:28:01 - 00:28:44:21 Steve You don't want a whole bunch of hoops and bounds to do it. So they've got to make sure that they've got that right messaging. And by the way, if I've just done a redemption and I used up all my points, please don't send me a note to say now's the time to do your redemption. You know I just did something.

00:28:44:21 - 00:29:08:04 Steve So again, it's the leveraging of data. And listen, the programs do a great job. I'm really impressed by the the sort of smaller programs, but also the way that the big programs are adapting. Air Miles is adapting, Scene Plus is adapting. Aeroplan is adapting. Westjet's just relaunched their program away from dollars to points, so loyalty is not dead in Canada.

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:25:13 Steve Loyalty has got an incredible future. But I think what you're going to start to find is experiential trust. Non-traditional is going to really be the future. And that only works if you got good use of data, good use of trust and good use of, you know, the right partner mix and the right blend of redemptions and accumulation.

00:29:25:13 - 00:29:28:17 Steve So I'm very excited for the future of loyalty in Canada.

00:29:28:19 - 00:29:51:02 Alison That's a great perspective. And building on what you shared about relevance and timing, we did some new CMA research, but one of the things we found from Canadians is when they get irrelevant ads or an ad after they've already bought something, it really damages the trust they have for the brand, to the point that 77% of them think less of the brand and will consider switching.

00:29:51:04 - 00:30:11:17 Steve Yeah. It's fascinating. Get on a plane one day and look at the tags on somebody's bag. There are some Aeroplan Super Elite tags that are ten years old. People still have a great amount of pride, so when I get my bag tags, they go right on my right on my briefcase and it's it's for nothing else. It doesn't do anything other than it just,

00:30:11:19 - 00:30:34:00 Steve I know. All those things are so much why people do enjoy loyalty programs. I'm sure you belong to multiples. You may be more loyal to one than the other. I won't ask which one is which, but we join them for a very specific reason and we want to get something out of that. They're free. We're not a free program, but again, we're not a loyalty program.

00:30:34:00 - 00:30:40:07 Steve We're a membership program that's got loyalty at its core. And trust at its core. And that's really important.

00:30:40:09 - 00:31:00:00 Alison Now, Steve, I'd love to end by having you share your career advice for our audience. You've got such an outstanding and long-standing career, and I absolutely know that our members would benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of advice that you would share with aspiring marketers who would love to follow in your footsteps?

00:31:00:02 - 00:31:20:20 Steve I think, and listen, I have a son who works in the loyalty industry. I've talked to a bunch of young folks that are in university and college. I tell them all the same thing, and I think it's really important. Number one is, you don't really know where your past going to take you. You really don't. What's important is you build relationships.

00:31:20:22 - 00:31:43:13 Steve You build an incredible network. It's a lot of work to do. But most of my journey has been built based on people that I've met along the way. Whether that was how I got into Air Miles or how I got into Hudson's Bay or whatever. It could be. My loyalty business with Joanna Walker, Loyalty and Co., was built on the back of referral, so leverage networks.

00:31:43:13 - 00:32:02:18 Steve Don't be afraid to ask your parents for advice. They know more than you think they do. I think the other part is that the industry changes so quickly. So stay on top of it. Stay relevant. Stay, you know, research like crazy, understand what's going on, try to stay ahead of the game. It's a bit of a chess game, life.

00:32:02:20 - 00:32:24:00 Steve So you just don't know who's going to make the next move and be really prepared sometimes just to take a chance. I've taken chances in my career. They didn't all work, but I don't regret anything in my career. Really, I tell everybody, make sure that you've got this piece. And the last piece of advice to give them? You're a 22-year old, you just graduated university.

00:32:24:00 - 00:32:44:08 Steve Nobody cares that you cut grass for ten years. Figure out what differentiates you. Tell your story. Tell the story that makes you different from somebody else, because you've got a lot of competition, a lot of competition in LinkedIn and Indeed and everything else that's out there. So really learn your elevator pitch on why should I hire Alison Simpson?

00:32:44:08 - 00:32:54:08 Steve Who are you? And don't be afraid, as I did, to step out into a hallway and say, hi, I'm Steve, you must be Alison. I've heard lots about you, because that's how we met.

00:32:54:10 - 00:33:15:01 Alison That is such outstanding advice, Steve. Thank you so much. I also want to thank you. Great conversation. Absolutely love the CAA story and how you you continue to evolve the business and all of the very relevant insights and learning that you've share that will benefit marketers, whether they're with longstanding Canadian, U.S. or international brands or more nascent brands. So a huge thank you.

00:33:15:04 - 00:33:24:08 Steve Well, we're very happy to do it. We're very proud to be CMA members, and we love the work that you're doing and will continue to be supportive. So anything we can do to help, we're happy to.

00:33:24:08 - 00:33:26:02 Alison Many thanks.

00:33:26:03 - 00:33:28:18 Steve You're very welcome.

00:33:28:19 - 00:33:41:10 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this live episode of CMA Connect for CMA Marketing Week 2025, Alison Simpson the CEO of the CMA welcomes Neil Patel, New York Times bestselling author, and the Founder of NP Digital. Their conversation covers various topics from the impact of AI on marketing, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation, to the changing nature of brand control and exposing the myth of controlling narratives. Listen in as Alison and Neil discuss the evolving landscape of the marketing profession in Canada and decide for yourself if brands still matter.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:45:09 Alison So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome everyone in the room today, as well as the hundreds of Canadians that are joining us from across the country to this live version of CMA connect. As we've heard throughout the morning, marketing isn't just changing. It is absolutely being redefined in real time. And it's so important to take time to reflect and digest and make sure that our pivoting makes sense.

00:00:45:11 - 00:01:07:03 Alison It's absolutely, very much a period of test and learn as well. And the most recent panel did a phenomenal job of sharing how that's working for them as well. And they both panels today have really given us a lot to reflect on. So building on that theme, I'm thrilled to be joined by Neil Patel and Years time bestselling author and also the founder of NP digital.

00:01:07:05 - 00:01:32:16 Alison He's going to be joining me on stage momentarily, but while he's coming up, I will share a little bit about Neil. Neil's full service digital marketing agency has helped industry giants like Microsoft and Google, just to name a couple, grow through revolutionary marketing strategies. He also has a marketing school podcast that attracts over 1 million listeners monthly. The United Nations recognized Neil as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs under the age of 35.

00:01:32:18 - 00:01:49:15 Alison Oh, and The Wall Street Journal cited him as a top influencer on the web, just around things out. He made Forbes list of the top ten marketers. You know what? I thought my career was going pretty well until I started to learn a little bit more about Neil. So, you know, I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing a CME session with him last year.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:52:18 Alison So it's great to welcome you back to Canada.

00:01:52:20 - 00:01:56:02 Neil Thank you. Thank you.

00:01:56:04 - 00:02:03:23 Alison So we're going to jump right in. What are the biggest rules you've seen rewritten. And then how are you going to rate us on our ability to adapt to those rules.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:25:02 Neil Yeah. So when you're thinking about the rules of marketing, people just used to assume marketing wasn't very black and white. I'm not talking about from the creative aspect, but in marketing, in general, people are like, okay, you spend money on clicks and you get traffic to your website, you generate sales, you rank on Google, you get clicks, you generate sales.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:48:06 Neil And one of the biggest rules has been changed in marketing is platforms now are trying to optimize keeping people on their own platform, their own site, instead of sending people off to your website. Marcus believe that you would have to have people coming to your website to drive revenue and sales. You can now purchase on Instagram or TikTok without ever leaving that platform.

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:13:04 Neil The business generates revenue and Instagram and TikTok, so have the user. They sell them more products, more services. So I would say the biggest rule that I'm seeing being rewritten right now is traditional form of marketing. Of sending them to a business to generate revenue is no longer the case. A business can make money on multiple platforms, and it's no longer about getting people over to your brand, your website.

00:03:13:10 - 00:03:22:14 Neil It's more so capturing their attention on whatever platform they are on and then selling them right then and there on that platform natively.

00:03:22:16 - 00:03:26:17 Alison And how are you writing marketers overall in our ability to adapt to that?

00:03:26:19 - 00:03:53:09 Neil Marketers have been adapting really well. What we typically see is the marketers who work for SMEs tend to adapt first, and then the marketers who work at large corporations typically adapt second, because it just takes time and energy. And when you're a big corporation, you know, that's publicly traded, that it has $100 billion market cap. It takes time to make adjustments versus when you're a five person start.

00:03:53:11 - 00:04:00:23 Alison Now you also work with a lot of big tech organizations. So are they a bit more agile or they're still suffering from the same?

00:04:01:01 - 00:04:04:23 Neil They're still suffering from the same thing that all the other corporations are.

00:04:05:01 - 00:04:16:14 Alison So, Neil, as we look to the future, there are some experts out there that are starting to question will brands continue to be relevant? So in your opinion, will Rand still matter in an age of algorithms and hyper personalization?

00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:00 Neil AI brands, I think, matter more than ever before. Think of AI overviews. You do a search you may get mentioned in a overviews you don't necessarily always get a click back to your website. You do a search on ChatGPT. You may see a brand or a product or service recommended. You may end up purchasing later on. You may not purchase at all, but it's very rare that you're actually clicking over to the website.

00:04:39:06 - 00:04:57:07 Neil You see a real on Instagram or video. Whatever you want and calling it short form. See a product or service mention you don't go and buy right away. In most cases. That brand recognition, though, is what eventually leads to a sale. In marketing, they call something the rule of seven. Or there's this thing called the Rule of seven.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:24:03 Neil When someone sees or interacts with your brand seven times, they're much more likely to engage, become a customer, evangelize. And we started looking at price points in both B2C and B2B. Of course, the cheaper the price point, the less interaction someone needed with the brand before they purchase. But when we looked at price points across the whole board for both B2B and B2C, the average number of interactions someone has with the brand when we did a study was around 11.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:34:22 Neil So branding is more important than ever, because if you're not touching people multiple times and you're not saying top of mind, you're less likely to drive that sale when they're ready to make that decision.

00:05:35:00 - 00:05:56:14 Alison Now, awareness and trust in a brand is obviously yes. We heard the panel talk about the emotional part of a brand. It's there's always going to be product features and benefits. But as humans we react emotionally. And we also heard a lot about authenticity. What else would you add to what makes a brand as important or even more important today?

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:12:05 Neil So if you want your brand to be super important, I would say you got to figure out an angle. You know, trust, authenticity. These are all a lot of things that markers talk about. And it's been there for a very long time. But what are you doing that's different? So I'll give you a great example of this right.

00:06:12:07 - 00:06:37:01 Neil I'm listening in. I'm from the States. I'm not familiar with as many Canadian brands as you guys may be. So one of the panelists before me was from Farm Girl. Never heard of it. I have kids, don't give them cereal in the morning. Why? It's terrible for you in most cases, right? The advantage you guys have here in Canada is you guys typically have cleaner ingredients.

00:06:37:03 - 00:07:01:00 Neil Our box of FrootLoops is much worse, at least from what we see on Instagram Reels when they compare versus what the Canadian version of FrootLoops is. All right, so when I saw Farm Girl, the first thing I did, even if there's a tariff for me, I tried to purchase it on Amazon, I think was like 20 something dollars, USD per package.

00:07:01:00 - 00:07:17:01 Neil I added three to a cart, and then I was like, I'm like, wait, I'm here for extra like few hours. Can I just go to the grocery store and pick some up? Because my suitcase is half empty? I'm literally here for a day, right? Like I should just go to the grocery store and just see if I can shove a ton in.

00:07:17:03 - 00:07:54:05 Neil I don't know what's going to happen at the customs or I'm Global Entry, so hopefully I don't get any beef, but that was a unique angle, solving a problem that people have. When I grew up, I eat cereal and my parents didn't know any better. Immigrants from India, you know, they look at it as like, anything's great. We're not living on the street, you know, give your kid whatever is on sale, affordable cut coupons, etc. at this point in time, we're much more educated as parents then I would say that the previous generations were, and it has nothing to do with intellect.

00:07:54:05 - 00:08:17:21 Neil I think a lot of it has to do with the data and the social platforms pushing out so much information that we're able to consume it and learn more. But going back to it, that brand stood out to me. She's booming. Great growth. I'm happy for her. But as a consumer, her success of her generating tons of revenue and growing fast is why I would buy the product.

00:08:18:02 - 00:08:38:10 Neil I'm buying the product. You know, either it's going to be Amazon or in-store if I can find it, but I'm buying the product for one simple reason a unique value proposition. Solving a very important problem. Parent busy in the morning. Don't want to give them crap food. Don't want to spend tons of money on Uber Eats to get restaurant quality food in there.

00:08:38:10 - 00:08:58:22 Neil I tend to do the morning shift. Terrible cook healthy cereal? Why not? Right? No, no. But in the US, I don't think there is a skill. Right. Or I would do skip whatever it may and whatever it may end up being right. But that is why I was willing to purchase that brand. And to me that is something unique.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:17:12 Neil Okay. And when you see something unique like that, people end up latching on and they see fast growth. I don't know her revenue numbers, but I bet you there in the eight figures sounds like a new business. But if I had to place a bet, I would bet you there are an eight figures. Why did they scale so fast?

00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:13 Neil That brand did something unique and new that people have never experienced before. Now there may have been another competitor who did exactly what she did a year or two earlier, but if it doesn't get out there and no one talks about it, then in most to most people it doesn't exist.

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:38:04 Alison So Jennifer, you have at least one sale from your appearance this morning. I suspect you have a lot more in the audience too.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:42:02 Neil Well, minimum of three because I added three different flavours to my cart.

00:09:42:04 - 00:09:57:11 Alison So it wouldn't be Marketing Week if we didn't talk about AI with at least one question. Yeah, clearly it's transforming marketing. How do you see it impacting marketing? And probably more importantly, what are the skills you think we as marketers need to build moving forward?

00:09:57:13 - 00:10:21:22 Neil So I was here last year and I was a center and people were discussing AI and how it's going to crush everything. It's going to turn everything, you know, upside down on the pyramid and the way organizations do business is going to be drastically different. All right. So we've seen a lot of data. I've always been on a different side of AI than what I think a lot of marketers and businesses believe.

00:10:22:00 - 00:10:39:22 Neil Keep in mind though, a lot of this is not my opinion. I talked to people who are actually coding these products, and I speak with the people from these platforms like no joke, whether it's in their offices or dinners. Like, I know some of the top guys, as you know, these corporations that are worth a crack load of money.

00:10:39:22 - 00:11:01:09 Neil And although their goal is to make AI as seamless as possible and help you in every aspect, there's a few big problems that most marketers aren't taking into consideration. So the first problem is, is the way I works is it takes all the data inputs and it creates outputs based on what you asked, but it learns from all the inputs.

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:19:15 Neil The problem with AI is those inputs are all accurate and there's not an easy way to solve this. It's like do a Google search. Have you ever noticed that when you do a Google search, some of the information you read is just off? Raise your hand. Okay, almost everyone in here is raising your hand. You don't think Google hasn't tried to solve this?

00:11:19:15 - 00:11:39:08 Neil They've been trying to solve this for ages. Like when I say ages almost since when they started. It's hard. Oh, what are you going to base on? Backlinks? Well, a lot of people link to inaccurate information. Comments a lot of people comment on something because, you know, whether you want to talk about how their politics or religion, there's people on both sides.

00:11:39:11 - 00:12:03:07 Neil So it creates polarizing views. Right? A great example of this is the vaccines. When the vaccines first came about, when Covid, people in different parts of the world were getting shunned, if they did not take the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm not here to get political. But if I fast forward today and I'm not going to have you guys raise your hands because, again, not trying to get political, I bet almost everyone in this room does not get booster shots.

00:12:03:12 - 00:12:27:00 Neil I don't even need to raise your hand. I can see the data in the earnings calls. Right? These companies are publicly traded. It's just the reality. But when it first came out, most people had a different tune about vaccines. And it doesn't mean that the government is right or wrong or pharmaceuticals right or wrong. But what I'm getting at is that information online of what people are posting was very polarizing or people had different views.

00:12:27:00 - 00:12:45:20 Neil So when I pulls in that, how do they know what is right or wrong? It makes things really complex. So today when you ask AI to help you with something, you need humans in the loop to review. When you have a I help you with a marketing campaign and come up with a strategy and everyone starts to do that.

00:12:45:21 - 00:13:09:09 Neil How is it really going to be differentiated? The creativity that people have is what makes marketing truly unique and amazing. But here's the thing and marketing is here to stay. It is going to make the whole industry move faster, much more efficient. And what you'll see is people will get things done much faster and waste a lot less money.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:29:08 Neil But even then you're going to still have humans in the loop. It's just AI is going to replace a lot of the D and C players. I eventually believe it will start replacing B players as well. We're quite a ways from that. When you want to look at how much AI has advanced in the past year, I understand that you can see like, oh wow, look at this video that it created.

00:13:29:08 - 00:13:49:13 Neil Look at this action figure turn me into. But look at it from a usability perspective, from your work that you're performing on a daily basis. You want it to have a great content for you. Has it really drastically improve the quality of that content over the last six months? Not as much compared to when it first came out in the first year.

00:13:49:14 - 00:14:17:04 Neil There was so much more progress that we would see in the quality of improvements, but it's taking longer for you to see leaps and bounds and improvements for things like content quality. And the reason being is every percent improvement is a lot more work than at its earlier stages. Again, it is here to stay. It is going to replace a lot of the bottom feeders or the people who aren't that great at their job, and it's going to make the people who are really good at their job more valuable.

00:14:17:04 - 00:14:25:12 Neil They're going to get paid more, and you got to figure out how you continue to learn and adapt to try to stay in that top percent style in whatever industry or so.

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:39:00 Alison Clearly, everyone that's tuned in today, if they're not already in a player, wants to be in a player, want a long term career in marketing. So what skills do we need to be adapting or growing in order to make sure that we're here in the long term?

00:14:39:02 - 00:15:01:20 Neil The first thing is, is learn how to use all the AI tools. When I say learn how to use them, I'm not talking about just putting in a prompt into ChatGPT. Think about the KPIs your department, you or the business has to hit. What are the things that you can do to help? I get you there faster, more efficiently, and figure out ways to use the tools to show positive traction.

00:15:02:00 - 00:15:18:02 Neil Not hey look, I use ChatGPT and I did all this cool stuff for the last two days. Oh great. And they're like, yeah, the fast forward six months. Look at all this crazy stuff I did the last six months. What were the results in traffic? Brand recognition, revenue leads. They're like, oh, it saved me a lot of time.

00:15:18:02 - 00:15:40:09 Neil What did you do with the extra time? I did more of that stuff, but it didn't produce results. If it doesn't produce results, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm not saying I can't produce results. It's that most marketers are using it for stuff that is a waste of time, and you need to start focusing on how can you use these tools to not only help you do your job better, but show better results?

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:06 Neil And a lot of that's going to come from experimentation. The second thing is continue to go to events and learn. You never will know everything. And that's okay. I've been in this space for more than 20 years, 24 years now. It's changed drastically. And some people ask me when I'm at some of these events, sometimes I talk to these college kids and they're like, why did you waste 15 20 minutes talking to a college kid?

00:16:02:06 - 00:16:20:11 Neil Are they going to become a customer? I'm like, no, like, so why did do they know more about marketing than you? I'm like, well, it depends. And they're like, what are you talk to? Like? Well, they grew up using these platforms. I didn't they see some of these trends and patterns before I do. What can I learn from them that I don't understand?

00:16:20:17 - 00:16:39:10 Neil And that's what you have to do when you go to these events is network with everyone, because you don't know who you're going to learn from, and never judge someone by their job title or the size of the company they work out, or their net worth, or the way they dress. You literally can learn from anyone, and when you do that, you'll become a much better person.

00:16:39:12 - 00:17:08:04 Neil The third thing, thank you. The third thing is continually read every single day, but limit it if you want to read for leisure, by all means, read as much as you want. But what I see people doing in marketing is continue reading articles and blogs and books, and they may read for 4 or 5 hours a day instead of saying, hey, I'm going to try to read for 30 minutes or an hour and then go and implement what I learned.

00:17:08:06 - 00:17:36:07 Neil So you read all these cool things that are happening with AI or marketing or branding, or even listen on the panel or a podcast, but very few people take that knowledge and do anything with it. Try to experiment. You're probably not gonna be able to do it daily, but try to implement one thing that you learned from a podcast or book a blog article at least once a week, and you'll start slowly growing your skill set as a marker, and you'll start seeing better results.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:55:09 Neil And if I give you one last bonus tip when it comes to becoming better as an individual, don't just look at things as KPIs. Don't just look at it. Here's the year I gotta hit this goal. I want you to also start looking from a different lens. And that lens is what are all the problems that are holding us back from growing.

00:17:55:15 - 00:18:12:14 Neil We're hitting our numbers now. Break it down to what are bite size things that can be fixed within a week, and start just tackling them one by one. People really do miss most their goals and objectives within an organization, and the reason being is they shoot for, hey, I got to do this.

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:13:12 Alison In a year.

00:18:13:14 - 00:18:28:02 Neil And they don't know how to get there. But if you start looking at things as problems and you start fixing them one by one, you fast forward three months, six months, you're like, whoa, we've made a lot of progress, and we're seeing it in our numbers, and you're just tackling a lot of the issues you have as an organization.

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:30:20 Neil And when you tackle them, usually see growth.

00:18:30:22 - 00:19:01:14 Alison So remarkably great advice. I love the learn by doing. I love sort of chunking it out. And those like small steps lead to with the benefit of time, huge outcomes. I also love you can learn from anyone. So in any beyond networking, in events, in any organization you're part of, if you have the opportunity to speak to students or anyone at any level in an organization, the amount of incredible insights and ideas that come out and that you can benefit from at any level in the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:19:01:16 - 00:19:31:16 Alison And then your first piece of advice resonates the most with me. Anyone that wants to be future proofing your career in marketing, if you are doing work that is driving a business forward, that is growing the business and delivering results, there is no better way to futureproof yourself. And as a profession, all of us need to be much more accountable and embracing of that, that commercial value that we're driving and really do a good job of advocating for the critical role that marketing plays in building brands and building businesses today. So, Neil, outstanding advice on all four counts.

00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:22 Neil Yeah. Thank you.

00:19:41:00 - 00:20:01:01 Neil And one last thing. When it comes to AI, the amount of businesses we interact with across the world that still have a move to the cloud is ridiculously high. It just. And the reason I say that is air is definitely here. The cloud has been here for a long time and we all know it's here to stay. Businesses don't adapt as fast as most people think.

00:20:01:04 - 00:20:13:07 Neil This is why startups can overtake trillion dollar companies is because large organizations inherently move slow. Politics, bureaucracy, see a lot of people, a lot of moving parts.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:21:20 Alison So decentralized technologies are reshaping how consumers are interacting with brands. How might this shift influence loyalty programs and engagement strategies?

00:20:21:22 - 00:20:47:13 Neil Yeah. So let's first go with loyalty programs, right? I think there's actually going to be a huge shift to loyalty programs over time. Which leads to the second part. And how is this going to decentralization, going to relate companies just abroad. If you look at the pattern right now, people use multiple social platforms. I have people raise their hand because I bet if I ask you how many social platforms you use, most of you guys can raise your hand for one.

00:20:47:13 - 00:21:10:03 Neil Actually, all of you will. Or almost all most you going to raise your hands or to most your hands will raise your hands for three a month. But the moment I ask you if you use four social media platforms a month, very few you're going to raise your hands. Five is going to really drop, but the average person logs in and uses 6.6 social platforms a month, according to Sprout Social 6.6 and the same thing is happening with search.

00:21:10:06 - 00:21:35:19 Neil People are starting to use Google ChatGPT, they're starting to use, you know, perplexity and the list goes on and on and on. The same goes with tools and a lot of the tech out there people are using not platforms. And what you're going to end up seeing is technology is everywhere, and the way regulation ends up working is these companies are more likely to get split apart at this point than to be able to buy up their competitors.

00:21:35:21 - 00:22:06:00 Neil And it's not a US thing. It's not a Canada thing. It's a global thing. If the US approves the acquisition, then you know, Europe may not. The perfect example of this is there's Pinterest and Snap. They don't make anywhere near the amount of money that Facebook makes. Their stocks are struggling. Do you think an ideal world Google would just buy X, Pinterest, snap and all these platforms because they have the biggest ad ecosystem they can just drive tons of advertisers and ads on their platform and just use the revenue without doing much work.

00:22:06:02 - 00:22:24:03 Neil This is not a hypothetical. This is actually if they bought it, you would see the revenue just skyrocket. And what I'm getting at is they can't because governments globally will not allow them to. You had to get a lot to prove to do one of these acquisitions. So what you're going to start seeing is technology can truly be fragmented.

00:22:24:03 - 00:22:47:06 Neil People will use it for what it is. People started skirting around the law. A great example of this is did you know that Amazon and Google and Facebook have not bought in that many AI companies? Right. I get they're buying some companies here or there, but do you know what they did? Hey, you should open source your technology and we'll take a lot of your employees and pay you a license deal to use that technology.

00:22:47:09 - 00:23:23:18 Neil This is their way of getting around monopolistic issues or laws or the government's not wanting them to buy up competitors and then be the only player in town. And what you'll end up seeing is technology will be out there from multiple platforms. And these platforms. The biggest trend that you're going to see is you'll have to not only learn to use technology for whatever it is and all the data won't be stored in one place because of rules and regulation, but these platforms will try to keep you on there for everything, including things like loyalty programs, the all in one apps that you see in Asia.

00:23:23:20 - 00:23:41:13 Neil You bet you're going to start seeing more of them here in Canada. What it is be easier. Just like you can purchase a product now on Instagram that when you're in Starbucks, use it through your Instagram app and you get hooked up. It's easier to do that than it is to download a Starbucks app, right? And that's what you're going to end up seeing.

00:23:41:19 - 00:23:51:02 Neil And then the data is going to be per platform, and you're going to have no choice but to use each platform for what it is. And data and analytics will be more important than ever.

00:23:51:04 - 00:24:07:19 Alison So marketers, especially in a soft economy, especially when there's uncertainty, there's a lot of pressure for short term results. And short term results are really important. But short term results only last when you're also doing long term brand building. So how can marketers balance the two?

00:24:07:21 - 00:24:31:19 Neil Yeah, you don't have a choice. Ideally, you need to think long term with your marketing. But people need short term results, especially when the economy is bad. So I like using the 8020 rule 20% of your efforts should be focused on short term things that have a positive ROI. 80% should be long term, but just because they're long term doesn't mean you shouldn't see results within two months, three months, six months, eight months, 12 months.

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:48:19 Neil It should get progressively better over time. It may not be in full effect until a year or two, but it doesn't mean that you can't see some results within three months. When you're thinking long term, like, oh cool, we're going to do this. We won't see any results until year four. You're probably doing something wrong with your long term approach.

00:24:48:21 - 00:24:56:19 Alison With the rise of user generated content and influencer marketing, how can brands maintain narrative control while still embracing these channels?

00:24:56:21 - 00:25:17:12 Neil You cannot maintain narrative control. That is a false sense of reality. I can go buy Farm Girl cereal between all my social platforms. I have millions of followers, and hypothetically, if I had a terrible experience, I bet you I'm going to have a delightful experience. This is just a hypothetical. I could say, look how bad the cereal is and, you know, allergic reaction and all this kind of stuff.

00:25:17:12 - 00:25:42:19 Neil But I looked at the ingredients. I was literally zooming in on my phone, and Amazon really clean ingredients, and that's when I added it to the cart, right? I literally swiped and zoomed in. And then on the flip side, I can say, look at this. I've had amazing experience. Look at my kids. You know, it's not getting them addicted to, you know, 50g of sugar per serving or something crazy like that because it's healthy, it's well balanced, yada yada, yada.

00:25:42:19 - 00:25:58:14 Neil You guys get the point. And I haven't looked at the ingredients, but I'm assuming it is more I haven't analyzed ingredients fully, but I'm assuming it's much more well-balanced. And let's say, you know, a general cereal that you pick up off the grocery aisle. But I can say something good, or I can say something bad. She can't control that.

00:25:58:17 - 00:26:19:18 Neil She can try to combat that. But you can't control the narrative. You can respond to the narratives. You can try to create your own narrative, but you will not be able to ever control the narrative ever again. And that's the reality. Doesn't matter what country that you're targeting or focusing, you cannot control the narrative anymore. That's how social media works.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:43:11 Neil All you can do is respond and do your best. And this is when I tell people, when you have some people saying bad things or negative things, try to respond and don't be combative unless they're really awesome, but try to do it in a polite way and show them where they can do to improve. You know, if they did something wrong, they use a product or service in the wrong way, or if they didn't say thank you for the feedback.

00:26:43:11 - 00:26:58:18 Neil I'm really sorry you're disappointed. If there's anything we can do to make it right, please let us know. And we're going to take this feedback and work on improving our product and service. And this is how. But just being transparent and honest and just being public about it, a lot of times it does a lot of good.

00:26:58:20 - 00:27:18:07 Alison So building on that, having it goes back to the importance of brand building and having brand advocates, because even more powerful than the brand, apologizing is when your community steps up and apologizes or helps combat the negative as well. So it just speaks to performance marketing and brand building. It shouldn't be one or the other. It needs to be both.

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:41:19 Neil Yes, but your community is more likely to respond and defend you if they understand that as an organization that you guys are willing to listen. If you don't listen, then you're going to be screwed. You know, that's the reality. Someone's going to go to the competition. There was a panelist earlier was talking about mortgages and how they adopted, people wanting better rates, refinancing.

00:27:41:21 - 00:28:05:18 Neil Now the back story. But they figured out a partnership with another company based on what I heard, and they figured out a solution for their customers. And that's example of listening. People just want to know that you listen. If you listen, it's okay if you make mistakes, everyone does. But if you listen and you're willing to adapt, admit when you're wrong and showcase how you're going to improve, you'll get the community to rally behind you.

00:28:05:23 - 00:28:13:12 Neil But if you don't and you're just going to be arrogant, be like, no, no, no, you're wrong. I'm smarter than you. Then why would anyone care?

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:21:07 Alison So is immersive digital experiences evolve? How should brands prepare to build and sustain their identity in virtual spaces?

00:28:21:09 - 00:28:45:17 Neil Yeah, so virtual spaces are going to be very similar to what you see right now on the web. It's all digital. You have a website, you have brand guidelines. Imagine a virtual mall and someone wearing augmented reality glasses like Oculus or Apple Vision Pro, but cool technology. I'm just waiting for the glasses format. I'm like, dude, I thought I was going to travel with it.

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:03:08 Neil The carrying case is literally a backpack and I'm like, I can't fit a backpack with in my backpack. How am I getting with my laptop at this point? Right? But just like you have brand guidelines for the web, your social media, your website, you will have the same for things like virtual reality and virtual spaces. There's not much of a difference.

00:29:03:10 - 00:29:25:04 Neil Even when corporations integrate their brand within games, which we're starting to see more and more, and that's starting to become more normal. What happens? Brands not only get make money from this, right a game, they get paid for brand integrating within their virtual or, you know, their characters or uniforms or whatever it may be, but they have brand guidelines, just like you see with the offline world.

00:29:25:07 - 00:29:51:00 Neil And we're seeing companies now being like, oh, let's mix Oreos in with protein powder and be like Oreo protein powder. All right. You're using Oreos name. There's definitely brand guidelines that you're going to have to follow from Oreo when you integrate their product. And if you don't believe me, once you sign the deal with them, you'll see that they'll force you to use certain types of colors, logos, etc. they're way for integration.

00:29:51:02 - 00:29:54:23 Neil And you're going to see this whether it's virtual or in the traditional sense.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:04:08 Alison So our event this one is called exclusively for the bright. So in today's climate and looking ahead, what do you believe is the bravest move a marketer can make and why?

00:30:04:10 - 00:30:27:19 Neil The bravest move that I've seen marketers do is figure out how to crush their existing model and transform into a new model. You look at Shopify, Canadian company, one of the best products out there in the e-commerce realm, period, right? You can look at their earnings as proof they built the email product they want in marketing there as a business.

00:30:27:19 - 00:30:47:18 Neil They want everyone to use their own systems. What do they eventually end up doing? Partnering with Klaviyo, taking a big cut, crushing what they actually wanted because they did what they thought was better for the user or the future based on what they saw for adoption. Most people aren't willing to do that. The CEO of that company, I think is exceptionally brilliant.

00:30:48:00 - 00:31:15:05 Neil I'm not talking about just from a intellect standpoint, definitely a smart, but I'm talking about he's willing to do stuff that most companies would not be willing to do when he knows it's the right fit for the long run. Think about doing that for everything. You know, we have marketing tools like Uber has announced the public we were burning three, 400 grand a month on these tools at the very beginning and releasing them for free, and they still are for free.

00:31:15:05 - 00:31:31:05 Neil There are paid versions, but most of it's free, 80 plus percent of it. And people are like, you're crazy. And I'm like, this is actually cheaper than spending money on paid ads. And I'm like, it will be. But at the beginning it was cost me 3 or 400 grand a month, and I was barely getting any leads from it, and I was just eating a ton of money.

00:31:31:08 - 00:31:54:00 Neil Now when I do the back end math, it would be something like $6 million a month worth of ad spend to generate similar results. Doing what's unconventional that people haven't tried before taking those risks is really how you be brave and I've been to Canada many times. People tell me Canadians are conservative. People tell me Canadians can't take risks.

00:31:54:02 - 00:32:14:12 Neil I call it bull. They're smart people. You guys can do anything. You guys put your minds here. You guys have built some amazing corporations throughout history. And not just that, people all over the world are using Canada products. Believe in yourselves. You can do anything you put your mind to. You don't have to take the traditional route. We're a global company with people.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:38:12 Neil In 28 countries. I think some of the best talent is here in Canada. We run our creative globally. Out of Canada has nothing to do with currency exchange. You know, people talk about Canada as currency exchange. I don't look at it that way. You want to know why we run our creative here from Canada? Because we have some of the best creative talent we've ever found here in Canada.

00:32:38:17 - 00:32:44:09 Neil Seriously, like, you guys have amazing talent here. Don't count yourselves out.

00:32:44:15 - 00:32:47:14 Alison You're doing it because you're very smart. That's why you're doing it.

00:32:47:19 - 00:33:06:00 Neil We did it because seriously, when we look for the talent, we look globally. It was amazing. Tanya. Ronnie, one of our managing directors in Canada, one of our best global leaders. Right. He's from the side that speaks French. The.

00:33:06:02 - 00:33:23:09 Alison So, Neil, you clearly have a very enviable career. And I know everyone that's tuned in today and is with us in person would benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with who want to follow in your success in your entrepreneurial career path?

00:33:23:11 - 00:33:45:07 Neil The biggest thing that I've learned and knows from my mom if you don't try, you'll never receive. I want to say don't try. You know, people like, I'll just take a shot. I'm talking about trying crazy stuff. All right. So my mom immigrated from India. English was her second language back then. When she went to school, English was not the first language.

00:33:45:08 - 00:34:01:10 Neil So when my mom came to the States as a teacher, she didn't have a teaching degree that was valid in the States, so she had to go to nighttime college we couldn't afford. We lived in long canals and we could not afford for daycare, but my dad had to work as well because you got to put food on the table.

00:34:01:12 - 00:34:23:01 Neil And no joke, my mom pushed the stroller to school few miles a day each way there and back, then said, I'll teach for free if you keep my kids here while I teach to build up the hours, I can get my credits and they get my certification. She did it for six months. No pay. All right. Then one day when she started her own school, she did one of the craziest things ever.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:41:21 Neil And she's like this will work. And I'm like, what is it, mom? It's like, I'm going to go to all my competitor schools and tell them, hey, the state only allows you or the government only allows you to have so many kids based on the teacher ratio in class ratio. So you're full. Here's fliers I want you to give them to every single parent that comes in.

00:34:41:21 - 00:35:06:23 Neil You're asking to put their kid into school when you don't have a spot. And she wasn't around to like 60 plus schools. Most of them just threw her fliers in the trash thinking she's crazy. A few of them center students. All of a sudden she went from making zero to over $100,000 a year, which is a lot of money, because she gave fliers to all her competitors and asked them to promote her school because they were full.

00:35:06:23 - 00:35:28:09 Neil She didn't give them a commission, no affiliate deal, no money exchange. She just asked. And it worked. That was just crazy stuff that she would try. And she always taught me, if you don't ask, you'll never get. And I remember one day my dad took me to Nordstrom's because someone gave him a gift card. He would never naturally show off their expensive department store.

00:35:28:14 - 00:35:31:23 Neil So we gave him a gift card. He's like, this blue.

00:35:31:23 - 00:35:32:21 Alison Shirt is this same.

00:35:32:21 - 00:35:50:15 Neil As this white shirt, same brand, but the white one is 50% off and the blue one is not. I want the blue one, but please give it to me at 50% off. And the lady is like, I can't do that. It's not on. So she's like, why not? You discount the other one. I want to speak to someone else.

00:35:50:17 - 00:35:53:04 Neil They actually gave him 50% off. Then he.

00:35:53:04 - 00:35:53:23 Alison Is they.

00:35:54:01 - 00:36:15:23 Neil He uses gift card. But what my parents taught me is if you never ask, you'll never receipt. And they ask for the craziest stuff. And someone being in the corporate world, if you even work in the core folder, you're entrepreneur. It doesn't matter. You can ask and you'll be shocked and what you can receive. There is a guy named Rich Barton.

00:36:16:01 - 00:36:31:11 Neil I don't know if you've ever heard his story. He created a company called Expedia. You guys know it's Expedia. Did you know he went to Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and said, I want to create this company called Expedia. Give me a $100 million. I think it was like $100 million that he wanted. You know, what they did?

00:36:31:17 - 00:37:01:05 Neil They did not give him $100 million. They thought, you can use a Microsoft name and our cloud will spin up, a separate company will raise it from other people, and we'll hook you up as well with equity and ownership. That is how he became rich. He convinced his boss. Technically, he asked his boss for a large sum of money or his boss's boss, and they said no, but they liked idea enough where they spun up a new company, took money from other people, and that's how Expedia was born.

00:37:01:06 - 00:37:22:18 Neil The moral of the story is, most people would not ask their boss for $100,000,000 plus years ago, but he did. That $100 million was way more back then. Companies never raise that kind of money. In other words, if you don't ask, you'll never receive. It doesn't matter if you're an entrepreneur or you work for a corporation. If you have something that you truly believe in, fight for it.

00:37:22:20 - 00:37:42:02 Neil Back up your data points with data and you know other people you know, agreeing with your signing off or backing you up and see how far you can go. And remember when you get to know a know, does it mean no? It just means not right now. So readjust your pitch and come back like, yeah, I know you said no, but I'm adjusting it.

00:37:42:06 - 00:37:54:23 Neil And no just means not right now. And eventually people of that persistence, you may wear them down and get that. Yes.

00:37:55:01 - 00:38:21:15 Alison Neil, thank you so much for a really great conversation, for a really great morning. It was a wonderful way to kick off CMA Marketing Week. I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone that's joined us in person and virtually across the country. Looking forward to seeing you at a lot of our events this week. We've got a great training session that's free for members this afternoon, and we've got a whole array of other in-person events, socials, professional development opportunities, and lots of ways for us to come together as a community.

00:38:21:21 - 00:38:29:17 Alison But Neil, a huge thank you to you and friend P digital for kicking off our CMA marketing week and for a really great podcast conversation.

00:38:29:18 - 00:38:38:00 Neil Thank you everyone.

00:38:38:02 - 00:38:50:16 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Where do you stand on Trump and the tariffs? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Gregory Jack, SVP of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication & Market Research, and Naumi Haque, SVP of Research – Market Strategy & Understanding, both from Ipsos. Their timely discussion highlights an Ipsos member survey quantifying Canadians' sentiments about today's economic and political climate. Learn how Canadians unite to defend the country's economy and sovereignty and discover how you can stand with your fellow Canadians.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:23 - 00:00:58:00 Alison We are certainly living in interesting times with tariffs and the 51st state nonsense creating uncertainty, we're seeing Canadians come together to defend our economy and also our sovereignty. In today's episode, we are sharing new research that quantifies how Canadians are reacting to Trump, tariffs and the turmoil that they're both creating. The ongoing study by CMA member Ipsos is tracking Canadians' sentiment and how it's quickly evolving on many key measures, including buying Canadian and how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability.

00:00:58:01 - 00:01:24:21 Alison Joining me today are Naumi Haque, Senior Vice President of Market Strategy and Understanding, and Greg Jack, Senior Vice President of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication Market Research, both from Ipsos. Naumi is an Insights Leader with over two decades of experience in the research and advisory industries across several great companies, including Google. In his current role, Naumi is managing customer research projects for companies in a variety of sectors including retail, cannabis and tech.

00:01:24:23 - 00:01:45:07 Alison He was at the forefront of global research that tracked the impact of Covid 19 on citizens and consumers, and is now leading a tracking study on how Canadians are responding to Trump and tariffs. Greg leads the Ottawa Public Affairs practice for Ipsos. He's also a Boomerang member of their team, having first worked there as a VP in their Calgary office in 2019 to 2023.

00:01:45:08 - 00:02:06:05 Alison Greg's held a variety of roles in the federal government and also worked for Suncor and the Government of Alberta early in his career. He brings extensive experience in both market research and helping brands and governments get their message out. Today, Greg, Naomi and I are digging into the research findings to discuss the impact that the economic and political uncertainty are having on Canadians.

00:02:06:07 - 00:02:27:02 Alison We'll discuss intriguing generational differences and also how Canadian consumers' attitudes towards US-based companies that are operating in Canada are changing. We'll highlight the opportunities and challenges that the rise of Canadian patriotism and the shifting sentiment and marketplace can represent for marketers. Welcome, Greg and Naumi, it's a pleasure to have you both with us today.

00:02:27:04 - 00:02:27:21 Gregory Thank you.

00:02:27:23 - 00:02:29:08 Naumi Thanks for having us.

00:02:29:10 - 00:02:39:15 Alison So Naumi, I'd love you to kick things off. How has the "Buy Canadian" sentiment evolved since the start of the US Canada trade tensions? And what implications does this have for marketers?

00:02:39:17 - 00:03:03:07 Naumi For sure. I mean, it's been, it's been a crazy month. So there's definitely the "Buy Canadian sentiment", is going strong. There's actually, you know, we see two things happening, right? There's patriotic purchasing, so people trying to buy Canadian or avoid American. And there's another shift happening with consumers, which is that we see just general conservatism. People are pulling back a little bit on spending because of all the uncertainty that's happening around the tariffs and the impact on prices.

00:03:03:08 - 00:03:23:13 Naumi So in terms of how it's evolving, we're definitely seeing the sentiment grow. So it's not just Buy Canadian, it's avoid American. And right now we're looking at the two thirds of Canadians that say they're making an effort to buy Canadian. And that's gone up from just over half of Canadians about a month ago. And on the boycotting American side, we're also seeing growth in that number.

00:03:23:14 - 00:03:46:07 Naumi So it's 58% of Canadians, right now are saying they're avoiding American products. And that's up from 47% a month ago. And then there's also, you know, about a third of Canadians that are stopping traveling from the US. So there's just right now a lot of, I think, angst with Canadians in terms of the US. And then there's the other part that I mentioned, the sort of being a little bit more conservative.

00:03:46:09 - 00:04:16:18 Naumi We see Canadians generally pulling back on spending. So about a third of them right now are telling us that in the past, two weeks, they've pulled back on spending or more tightly budgeted their money because of everything that's happening with tariffs and uncertainty. So it's definitely, you know, a strong sentiment amongst Canadians. It's growing. And I think the implication for marketers is there's there's obviously a risk if you're an American company, there's an opportunity if you're a Canadian company and can sort of communicate your Canadian credentials.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:39:02 Naumi And then there's also this focus on value. But to to capture some of those people that are pulling back on spending. But ultimately, the bottom line I think for marketers is that, you know, like I said, the last month had been crazy. It's been crazy for us as market researchers, but it's been crazy for consumers. And the most important thing to remember is that right now, all of those brand decisions that consumers are making, they're they're sort of up in the air, right.

00:04:39:03 - 00:04:59:20 Naumi Like we we as marketers, we spend a lot of time thinking about, oh, how do we how do we break through? Right. How do we get our message to resonate with Canadians? And, you know, in some categories we see that it's really tough to break through. Right. Like in CPG categories, it can be 60, 70% of people are on autopilot. Well, right now that inertia around brands is broken.

00:05:00:00 - 00:05:07:03 Naumi And so it's an opportunity. And I mean, we're expecting to be very busy as market researchers in the next little bit. Let's put it that way.

00:05:07:05 - 00:05:18:04 Alison It's amazing. And it's moving at such warp speed. It's incredible. I'd love to hear if you're seeing any regional differences, because typically in Canada we would see regional differences. But I don't know that that's applying in the situation.

00:05:18:06 - 00:05:37:09 Naumi I mean, the sentiment is across the country, but we definitely do see regional differences. What's interesting is, you know, even in places where do you think, oh, well, you know, them a little bit holding back like in Quebec. Right. It's even people in Quebec now rallying around Canada and sort of that national pride. So it really is coast to coast.

00:05:37:11 - 00:05:54:06 Gregory You know, I think Naumi really hit the nail on the head in. What we're seeing in Quebec is fascinating because all of a sudden, Québecers are rallying around the Canadian flag, and we are seeing that in some of the voting intentions during the federal election in our polls. And we're also seeing it anecdotally in stories that you see in the media and in our numbers.

00:05:54:08 - 00:06:06:02 Gregory The real difference, as we're going to discuss, I think, is not regional but generational. But Canadians from coast to coast have really signed up to this Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement that we're seeing emerging.

00:06:06:04 - 00:06:18:14 Alison That's a great shout out, Greg, and I'd love you to drill down on that and really help our listeners understand the generational differences that we are seeing based on the current economic situation and how this is also impacting marketing strategies.

00:06:18:16 - 00:06:40:01 Gregory Right. And Naomi and I wrote a while ago paper called "Nuanced Nationalism", and the paper talked about how the nationalist movement or the Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement has significant generational differences. And what we're finding is that it's the Baby Boomers who are leading the charge here. Younger Canadians are more likely to put price over patriotism. Now, that's not to say that younger Canadians aren't behind this.

00:06:40:01 - 00:06:58:15 Gregory They are. And these numbers are, are still showing majorities in most groups. All age groups, in fact, have been saying that they've been changing their behaviour and they've been paying attention. But there are some generational differences. Right now, for example, 66% of Baby Boomers say that we can never again trust the Americans the same way. And that's just 45% of Gen Z.

00:06:58:17 - 00:07:15:00 Gregory We see 80% of Boomers saying that despite the current dispute with the U.S. is going to bring Canadians together, which we've been saying it's been doing, j ust 63% of Gen Z are saying that. And so these are these are, you know, big differences that do suggest there's there's some nuanced nationalism happening. And we see this in purchasing, too.

00:07:15:01 - 00:07:45:19 Gregory While 7 in 10 Canadians say that we should stand up to Trump with retaliatory tariffs, even if that means Canadians have to pay more, that number goes up to eight in ten among Boomers, and it's just five in ten among Gen Z. So Naumi alluded earlier to how Canadians are pulling back their spending. And really the group that is most affected by this, who may have the most to lose and not be able to afford to buy something that's more expensive or change their travel plans, are the younger group and the Boomers, on the other hand, who have and continue to have a lot of wealth in Canada are the ones

00:07:45:19 - 00:07:56:07 Gregory who are able to put their money where their mouth is and change their behaviour to send a signal to the Americans, and also to potentially, affect the American economy and goods.

00:07:56:08 - 00:08:10:19 Alison Greg, in addition to the financial reality for younger Canadians, are you seeing other contributing factors to why they're not as supportive of Buy Canadian or as against, what's going on from an American perspective?

00:08:10:21 - 00:08:31:21 Gregory Yeah, I think that some of the, the attachment to Canada and the, the unity question comes into play here. We see lower attachment among Gen Z'ers to Canada. And there's a variety of reasons that could be behind that. They're more likely to be new Canadians. And so they don't have the shared history. They haven't necessarily been through the ups and downs of the markets and Canada-U.S. relations that the Baby Boomers remember.

00:08:31:23 - 00:09:02:11 Gregory And, you know, you think back to the 70s and the 80s and how all of that might have changed. And of course, Baby Boomers, as I pointed out, have really benefited from the Old World Order, the old Canada that we've all enjoyed. And so for them, they just want to preserve the status quo. For younger Canadians, they feel that the status quo is broken and they want to rebuild the institutions that they don't feel have been working for them as coming up to now and, and find that this might be an opportunity to do that, or at the very least, they don't have the same level of attachment to Canada that their older parents and

00:09:02:11 - 00:09:03:20 Gregory grandparents might have.

00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:03 Naumi And I can add to that, too. I think there's also a lot of attachment with young people to America, American brands, they, you know, they've grown up consuming American media, American social media, and a lot of the brands that are present in Canada right now are American brands. And so they've grown up with that. So there's also that sort of like Greg was saying, less of an attachment to Canada, maybe, but, you know, for some of them, more of an attachment to, to the U.S. as well.

00:09:27:05 - 00:09:40:17 Alison And building on that, with the rise of TikTok and brands outside of North America, are we seeing younger Canadians with a more global perspective, or is it still gravitating more towards the U.S. than other countries?

00:09:40:18 - 00:09:58:22 Naumi It's a it's an interesting question. We did some generational research last year, and one of the hypotheses that we had that we wanted to test was, Gen Z are potentially the first truly global generation, because they've had access to, like you said, all the social media. And so are they the first generation that globally, you know, has a shared worldview?

00:09:59:02 - 00:10:17:19 Naumi And so there is some evidence to that, it's really tough to, to, to sort of measure that we you know, we did do a study in about 15 different countries to try to get at it and see, you know, what are the commonalities that they have. And it's it's interesting, like a lot of the the differences that you'd expect it to be attributed to age were not.

00:10:17:19 - 00:10:41:07 Naumi And young people are sort of, you know, it really depends if you're left or right or sort of, where where you come from also plays a little bit of a difference. The one thing that we saw that they were truly sort of connected on was a shared sentiment and frustration, which is interesting. It's, you know, it's they are the truly first global generation in that they are all feeling that maybe they're worse off than previous generations.

00:10:41:07 - 00:10:57:12 Naumi They're all feeling a little bit more frustrated with the world right now. If you look at some of the emotions that they project, they're all, you know, a little bit more likely to be, to be frustrated, to be disengaged. And so there's there is that that we see happening. I don't know if it's as a result of social media.

00:10:57:13 - 00:11:02:18 Naumi There's still sort of a lot of open questions there. Definitely a hypothesis that we're testing. And I think there is some truth to it.

00:11:03:00 - 00:11:20:16 Gregory And I just want to add to that, Naumi and I and some of our colleagues last week did a webinar called "From the Pandemic to the Present", and we looked at some of these measures through the lens of generation and attachment. One of the most interesting questions that we talked about in that webinar was where people see their chances of success coming from.

00:11:20:18 - 00:11:40:07 Gregory We offered them an option. You know, people's chances of success and their country depend mostly on their own merit or efforts, versus people's chances of success in their country depend mostly on factors beyond their control. And this was a global question we asked of 22,000 people online. When you look at Canada, you see a really, really clear picture.

00:11:40:08 - 00:12:03:12 Gregory 56% of Boomers said it's due to merit and effort, and only 18% said factors beyond their control. But by the time you get down to Gen Z, those numbers are tied. 31% of Gen Z say that it's due to merit and 30% say it's factors beyond their control. And so we have seen globally some of this difficulty for Generation Z to get a start in life and take advantage of the institutions that their parents and grandparents had.

00:12:03:14 - 00:12:22:12 Gregory But I think that our research does show that that sentiment is stronger in Canada in some ways than it is in other places. And, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, part of that is driven by cost, of cost of living and not having the means. But part of it, I think, too, is, as you point out, as Naumi says, based on how different their world experiences from other generations.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:34:06 Alison That's very fascinating. Thank you both for sharing more on that. And then, Naumi, I'd love to hear from you how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability.

00:12:34:08 - 00:12:51:10 Naumi Yeah, and we sort of kicked the conversation off with that, right? There's the desire to buy Canadian and sort of patriotic purchasing. And then there's the you know, at the same time, it's it costs money. And so we're having to pullback right now. What we're seeing is that, Canadians are pissed and they're they're willing to absorb some pain.

00:12:51:12 - 00:13:22:04 Naumi So you know, it started off that discussion with with tariffs. And and Trump is a bit of an inconvenience. You know sort of in the news. And then it became more of an insult. And I think, you know, all the 51st state rhetoric was probably a tactical mistake on Trump's part. It ignited a lot of emotion in Canada, to the point where now, we have two thirds of Canadians that are saying we should retaliate against Trump, even if it means Canadians have to pay more for things because they want to send a message, and I don't know that that's the response Americans were expecting from Canadians.

00:13:22:04 - 00:13:43:09 Naumi That we would stand up for ourselves so much. But we're definitely seeing that right now. We're also willing, as Canadians to spend to support Canada, and even more so than than the Americans are right now. So 74% of Canadians say they had paid more for Canadian-made products in the past week. That was 66% among Americans that said that they paid more to buy American-made goods,

00:13:43:11 - 00:14:05:21 Naumi as a result of, everything that's happening right now. So, you know, south of the border, we do see shifts in purchasing, but they're much more driven by sort of financial concerns, people being more conservative. But up here in Canada, it's definitely more driven by patriotism, at least for now. So I think we'll, we'll see how long that lasts or how long we can afford our morals.

00:14:05:23 - 00:14:11:22 Naumi But right now, it seems like Canadians are willing to, to suffer a little bit to buy Canadian and to boycott the U.S.

00:14:12:00 - 00:14:25:13 Alison There are some categories where it can be more challenging to find Canadian brands and products. So is that driving the, well, if I can't find it in Canada, then as long as it's anywhere but the U.S., I feel that I'm fighting back.

00:14:25:15 - 00:14:47:01 Gregory Yeah, we're definitely seeing that. There's there's a mixture of avoid American and buy Canadian. You can't obviously buy certain products in Canada. So we're trying to find ways to to buy things like lemons from South Africa, is something that I saw in the grocery store the other day. And, you know, anecdotally, we needed some strawberries a couple of weeks ago, and there was American strawberries for $2.99.

00:14:47:01 - 00:15:09:00 Gregory And then there were, I think Canadian strawberries were $5.99 or something? And and we bought the Canadian strawberries because we were willing to, you know, put a little bit of money behind that. I think that's definitely something that's happening. But people are looking for that Canadian claim. They want to buy Canadian products where they can. And it's not always clear what a Canadian product is, how these things are measured.

00:15:09:02 - 00:15:28:00 Gregory The most impactful one is the Made in Canada label. Half of Canadians say that that label satisfies their desire to buy Canadian products. In contrast, Product of Canada is slightly lower, but we know from the CFIA requirements that the requirements for Product of Canada are actually much stronger. So 98% of the ingredients have to be Canadian.

00:15:28:01 - 00:15:46:11 Gregory The threshold for Made in Canada is quite a bit lower. 51% of the total cost must occur in Canada, and the last transformation must occur in Canada. So that's complex. I think Canadians are becoming more aware of what these labels are meaning. I don't know about you, but when I walk through the grocery store, there's always people holding a package up and staring at the small print.

00:15:46:13 - 00:16:03:17 Gregory I would imagine that companies will start making it more prominent where their products come from if this continues. And probably not just here, I would say that this is probably going to start to happen in other places as well. But there's a lot of confusion right now about the meaning of those terms, and there's some fear that some retailers might be taking advantage of this "Buy Canadian."

00:16:03:22 - 00:16:22:05 Gregory According to some news reports we've seen in publications like the Globe and Mail. So I think the Globe called it "maple washing", which is something we used in our survey as well. I don't think we thought of it, but it seems to be a pretty widespread claim. And we found that half of Canadians would stop buying from a company altogether if they found that it was exaggerating how Canadian these products are.

00:16:22:05 - 00:16:41:18 Gregory So, one thing that doesn't resonate is "packaged in Canada." Only 6% say that that satisfies their demand to buy a Canadian product, and only 15% say they would willingly pay more for a product that is made in the USA but packaged in Canada. So this is one way that I think retailers and producers are trying to get that Canadian angle in there and say it's packaged here.

00:16:42:00 - 00:17:03:14 Gregory That doesn't seem to be as strong a claim as some of the others. And of course, the best option that the people support the most is to buy a Canadian product made in Canada by a Canadian-owned company. 73% said they would pay more for a product that meets that description. And so I think that there's a lot of nuance in the Buy Canadian Avoid American, just like there's a bunch of generational nuance that we've alluded to.

00:17:03:16 - 00:17:28:11 Naumi Yeah. I mean, and it's evolving a little bit, right, too? So I think there's more nuanced understanding now. I think we started out with a bit more of like, you know, screw everything American kind of mentality because we were feeling insulted, like I said before. But, you know, Canadians want to support Canadians and Canadian jobs. So there's the question of, you know, if a company is American-owned, but they make their products in Canada, is it okay to support them? Right now

00:17:28:11 - 00:17:51:23 Naumi that's close to 50% of Canadians that agree with that. That was four in ten about a month ago. So, you know, there's that shift of yeah, you know, it's, it's okay if it's an American Company. They're here. They're supporting Canadian jobs or it's a Canadian franchise. They're supporting the Canadian community. So there's, there's definitely that as well. And then you mentioned retailers, Greg, I think definitely we're seeing people that are willing to boycott retailers.

00:17:51:23 - 00:18:11:05 Naumi But I think they get a bit more of a pass. Right. So we said a quarter of Canadians are avoiding American retailers. That's much lower than the percent that are avoiding American products, which is closer to six in ten. So, like Costco is a good example. I mean, I was I was shopping at Costco recently and, you know, it is an American retailer, but we were still there trying to buy Canadian.

00:18:11:05 - 00:18:24:11 Naumi And I would say about 80% of the items that we left with that they were in our cart, you know, were Canadian products. So there is still an option of, yeah, I can I can support an American retailer, but I can, but I can buy Canadian as well.

00:18:24:13 - 00:18:46:14 Alison And I understand that Costco was also making it easier, so when you walk in Costco, they're profiling the Canadian brands and products as well. And then Greg, going back to your point, it's such an important education and difference between Product of Canada, Made in Canada. The CMA in February issued an article to help marketers understand, because any that fall victim to "maple washing",

00:18:46:14 - 00:18:57:14 Alison there's such a loss of trust in customers. And your research data proves that when Canadians figure out that "maple washing" is happening, it's not just a short term pain for the brand and business, it will have longer term implications.

00:18:57:16 - 00:19:10:17 Gregory Yeah, even if they do it accidentally, if they're not meaning to mislead people, but people feel misled, that alone will will have consequences and then if they are deliberately misleading, I would wager that it's going to be even more severe of a reaction.

00:19:10:19 - 00:19:29:11 Naumi I think on the flip side of the "maple washing", though, for, for, you know, for the the American brands, that may be listening in and, you know, the marketers that are supporting American brands, there is some goodwill to be gained about talking about, you know, supporting Canadian jobs and supporting the local community and things like that as well, which, you know, not to say just because you're an American brand, you shouldn't be talking about that.

00:19:29:11 - 00:19:39:03 Naumi You can still talk about it, you know, even if you're not Made in Canada or 100% Product of Canada. Well, we support the Canadian community, we support Canadian jobs. And that that's still going to resonate.

00:19:39:05 - 00:20:04:16 Alison It speaks to the complexity of the issue, because there are so many Canadian businesses that have significant holdings in Canada, significant employee places in Canada, and are actively contributing to our economy. So as the tariffs and Trump and chaos continue, figuring out how Canadians' views are evolving around both Canadian brands and businesses, but also American brands and businesses that are in our country and participating in our economy

00:20:04:16 - 00:20:20:16 Alison is going to be fascinating to see how Canadians feelings change and evolve. And I know it's early days, but in the research so far, are you seeing any challenges or opportunities for those American companies that have Canadian employee bases and are contributing to the economy?

00:20:20:18 - 00:20:42:05 Naumi I mean, I think there's a lot of uncertainty still, I think it's maybe still a little bit early to say how Canadians are going to net out. You know, perhaps as we start to see more a sort of financial pain behind it, they're going to become more critical. But I think right now there is for sure an opportunity, like I was saying, you know, as an American company, you can still be supporting Canadian jobs.

00:20:42:05 - 00:20:58:06 Naumi I know some of the retailers that we work with talk about that the American companies that are, you know, in the QSR space or restaurant space, there is, you know, often Canadian franchisees, even though the brand is American, you know, even for like you're saying, those American companies, there's there's an opportunity here as well.

00:20:58:08 - 00:21:10:04 Alison And we touched on this a bit earlier, Naumi, but I'd love to you to elaborate more on the trends that you're seeing in consumers' willingness to pay more for Canadian products, and are you seeing variances across different product groups?

00:21:10:06 - 00:21:33:04 Naumi For sure. Category makes a huge difference. So food is most important. It's something you buy all the time. And it's also easy to identify, right? It's right on there. Where's the product from? Where is it grown? So food's most important. And some, you know, for for some foods there there aren't good Canadian options. But you know there's an anecdotal story about a customer in grocery store looking for Canadian oranges.

00:21:33:04 - 00:21:55:04 Naumi Right? It's like, we don't have that, but where's the next best place I can get oranges? So in food, it's definitely important. But it may also be not just buy Canadian but don't buy American. So look for those alternatives, you know, South America, Europe wherever. And other important categories - financial services. So Trump started talking about Canada opening up to more U.S. financial services as one of the requirements.

00:21:55:06 - 00:22:18:04 Naumi That's not really something Canadians want right now. There's a strong sense of, you know, I want my financial services to be provided by Canadian institutions. So that's another important one. T ravel. There's been a lot of press coverage on travel. Canadians don't really want to go to the U.S. right now. So we did some research around travel destinations. You know, back in January, among Canadians that were planning leisure trips

00:22:18:04 - 00:22:36:12 Naumi in the next few months, 47% were planning to head to the U.S. About half of Canadians in any given time that are planning leisure trips are going to the States. In March, that number cratered. It was like down to 29%, the lowest it's been since we've been tracking it. So, you know, people are choosing to go elsewhere. They're going to Europe, they're taking their money to other places.

00:22:36:12 - 00:22:55:02 Naumi The ones that people seem to care less about are things like electronics. A lot of the brands aren't Canadian or American, you know, the Asian brands for a lot of electronics. So that doesn't tend to be much of an issue. Streaming services. You may be surprised to know, people, no one wants to give up their their Netflix or their Disney Plus.

00:22:55:04 - 00:23:16:23 Naumi So we're seeing sort of a stronghold on on streaming services. And then to some extent personal care and, you know, over-the-counter medications, things like that, that things you get in the drugstore, are a bit more protected from Canadian sentiment right now. We don't see that same level of commitment to buying Canadian or avoiding American. And I think it just comes down to, you know, it's, it's things that are related,

00:23:17:01 - 00:23:42:17 Naumi if you're putting it in your body, it's related to your health and wellness, you're not going to sort of make decisions on that based on patriotism. So definitely differences by categories. The one that I think we'll we'll have to wait and see on, that we're watching continue to track is large purchases. You know, so things like cars that they don't people don't buy as often, or you know, we hear anecdotally about Canadian snowbirds selling their U.S. properties.

00:23:42:17 - 00:23:56:22 Naumi I mean, those are things that take a lot longer, or cars aren't thought as frequently, so we don't have data on that right now. So we'll see what, sort of happens with those larger purchases. But my sense is that, you know, these for now, we're not seeing a huge shift there.

00:23:57:00 - 00:24:22:06 Alison The automotive is an interesting one, because I read another report where the last quarter we just finished, automotive in Canada actually saw a spike. And the thinking is that's because people that were thinking of buying were either delaying their decision for a year or accelerated it before the impact of the tariffs hit. And then Greg, looking ahead, how do you foresee the current Buy Canadian trend evolving and what should marketers be preparing for in the coming months or years.

00:24:22:06 - 00:24:28:07 Alison And I know a years is probably too long a horizon at this stage in the game. So why don't we focus it more at once?

00:24:28:09 - 00:24:43:08 Gregory Sure. I mean, we advised our clients to look at this sort of in threes; the next three weeks, the next three months, and the next three years. And obviously, the further you get to the future, the harder it is to say. Right now, the question that we've been asking ourselves at Ipsos and we've been throwing this term around, is whether this is a moment or a movement.

00:24:43:13 - 00:25:00:05 Gregory Are people going to abandon this buy Canadian, avoid American, if we finally either get used to things or if we reach a settlement with the U.S. of some sort, or if people made the choice for for the longer term, that they're simply not going to go back to some of these products, either because they found a pretty good substitute

00:25:00:05 - 00:25:18:11 Gregory they get used to, or because they're, they're just, as Naumi said, pissed, and are unlikely to to let that anger go very quickly. So we don't yet know that. But but, where I'm honouring that question, I think that right now we've seen a lot of talk as well about strengthening ties to Europe. Our poll did show that I think 7 in 10 Canadians think we should do that.

00:25:18:13 - 00:25:37:14 Gregory And right now it's very two-sided. It's Trump against the world. Especially since he announced the the reciprocal tariffs, there has been worldwide reaction to that. And so it's almost like we kind of got ahead of it a little bit. And now the rest of the world is going to catch up. 7 in 10 Canadians say that our future is better served by aligning with like-minded countries in Europe rather than the U.S.

00:25:37:16 - 00:26:00:05 Gregory And we're going to keep testing in the future as we continue this research to see whether this is going to kind of persist. So we've reached a new phase in the debate, but it's not going to abate quickly. And we expect these threats to to persist at least until the midterms, because I think everybody would not be surprised if coming up to the U.S. midterms, that the Republicans and the President are looking for ways to get votes and stir up reaction.

00:26:00:07 - 00:26:24:01 Gregory They could start targeting Canada or other countries again with new accusations about something that didn't work over the last year and a half that was supposed to. And so that's why they have to to then come after Canada or other countries again. So I think that we can expect to see this issue persist for the medium-term, even if we start negotiating a new agreement with the Americans, as we will have to do, because the free trade agreement is up for renewal.

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:27:06 Gregory So that's what's going to inform, I think, the next little while.

00:26:27:07 - 00:26:44:04 Naumi You know, this isn't over soon. This is going to last for a while. My my message for marketers, though, would be don't wait, right. You know, months or years, hopefully not years or months, you know from now, consumers will have made their brand decision. They'll be used to buying those, you know Canadian strawberries that you were talking about, right?

00:26:44:04 - 00:27:12:12 Naumi Like there the moment of disruption will be over. And I think the biggest message again is, you know, sort of make your case to Canadians now while they're reevaluating their decisions. It's, it's one lesson from the pandemic, it was a window of opportunity where, you know, consumers were sort of uncertain and it was an opportunity for brands. There's an interesting metric that we used to track during the pandemic is, you know, do you trust brands or the government more in terms of that source of information?

00:27:12:12 - 00:27:30:05 Naumi And it was like 4 in 10 Canadians at the time said that they trust brands more than the government for, as a source of information during the pandemic. So, you know, it's that same type of mentality right now. There's a lot of uncertainty. You know, like you said, there's there's an election. So people aren't even really sure what to think of the government.

00:27:30:08 - 00:27:49:09 Naumi It's a moment for for brands to, to sort of step in and provide reassurance, help consumers make decisions. Again, sort of gauging it by how we operate as a research company. You know, there was a brief moment of pause in 2020 when the pandemic happened. Everyone was trying to figure out, you know, what the heck's going on, what's going to happen?

00:27:49:09 - 00:28:04:15 Naumi And sort of paused. And we're seeing that we're in that moment, I think, during tariffs and and everyone's just sort of paused. We don't know what's going to happen, is it? Are we going to go in recession? We don't know. But by 2021 I know my teams anyways were crazy busy. Everyone wanted to know how consumer behaviour is shifting.

00:28:04:15 - 00:28:20:10 Naumi What should they do? You know, how important is health and wellness? All these things. And I think we're going to see the same pattern now, right? There's a bit of a pause right now, but I'm expecting, you know, to, to be fairly inundated with questions around, okay, well, what should we do? I mean, we're already seeing it, right?

00:28:20:10 - 00:28:35:11 Naumi We're getting a lot of attention obviously, around the topic, but I think as companies are thinking about, okay, well actually now what do I have to do with my brands? What does our portfolio look like? How am I going to communicate it? What's the messaging? What's the next creative? I think we're going to, we're going to see a lot of shifts.

00:28:35:13 - 00:28:54:00 Alison And given that the pandemic learning is still relatively fresh for all of us, I don't think there will be the same length of pause, because we've seen that action and first-mover advantage when it's done well, can provide some pretty significant benefits. Great conversation. Before I let you go on with your busy days, I want to do a bit of a pivot.

00:28:54:02 - 00:29:10:20 Alison You both have great long standing careers in research, and I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from learning from your journey and be very curious to learn from your journey. So to close off today's discussion, I would love you each to share the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your leadership footsteps.

00:29:10:22 - 00:29:12:15 Alison And Greg, why don't you kick us off?

00:29:12:17 - 00:29:31:16 Gregory Sure. That's a great question. And, you know, I like to think that I've had a mix of good fortune and, and hard work in my career. One of the things that I would tell somebody who's starting their career out or even starting a new position, is put your hand up. Right? There, there is times when we have very busy periods, this being one of them, and this is a great project.

00:29:31:22 - 00:29:54:13 Gregory We've had a lot of people at Ipsos who have wanted to work on it, but it's the ones who put their hand up and really gone in with both feet that are going to benefit from that experience. They're going to benefit from, getting to know other people across the company. This was a bit unique for Ipsos because Naumi and I do such different things, but our teams are now working together on on a common cause, and they've gotten to know some of their colleagues as well by, by doing that, by putting their hand up.

00:29:54:13 - 00:30:03:23 Gregory So if I had one piece of advice, it would be when, when, you know, crisis like this strikes or when there's an opportunity, I volunteer to be involved, because that's how you learn.

00:30:04:01 - 00:30:21:21 Naumi That's a good one. I 100% agree. I would say another one is, you know, don't be afraid to be a little bit provocative to to tell the story. You know, the title of our the project is "Trump, Tariffs and Turmoil," which is a little bit, you know, more provocative than what you might expect from a, from a research company.

00:30:22:02 - 00:30:38:04 Naumi But it all comes down to the storytelling, right? A lot of researchers are good with data, are good at numbers, but you've got to convert that into a story to grab people's attention. We live in an attention economy. And and you know, headlines and and the story and the narrative that you're able to tell, are important.

00:30:38:04 - 00:30:41:03 Naumi And I think that's served me well, certainly in my career.

00:30:41:05 - 00:31:01:05 Alison Our listeners will be very well-served to listen to both of those pieces of advice. So thank you very much. And Naumi and Greg, I really appreciate the conversation. It couldn't be more timely. And I love that Ipsos is going to be tracking this on an ongoing basis so we can see having you back down the road and see how things are evolving, and then also the nuanced, nationalism report that you mentioned.

00:31:01:07 - 00:31:09:06 Alison What we'll do is provide a link to that in our notes as well. I know that will be of interest to our listeners, too. So thank you both. I really appreciate our time together today.

00:31:09:12 - 00:31:10:22 Naumi Thanks so much for having us.

00:31:10:23 - 00:31:12:21 Gregory Thank you very much.

00:31:12:23 - 00:31:25:12 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Why should Canadian marketers care about AI today? Join CMA CEO Alison Simpson as she sits down with Steve Mast, Co-Founder and Partner at Twenty44, to uncover fresh research on how ready (or not) Canada's marketing community is for AI. Discover practical examples of AI in action, learn how to tackle governance and training gaps, and get a glimpse into the future of AI-driven marketing.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:50:02 Alison In today's episode, we will share a new research on how the Canadian marketing community is preparing for and embracing AI. It's definitely one of the hottest topics in our profession, and we have new Canadian insights and data on how ready or not marketers are. We also have valuable learning on how they're activating the opportunities that AI represents. Joining me today is Steve Mast, the co-founder and partner of Twenty44, the company who led the research with the CMA.

00:00:50:04 - 00:01:12:09 Alison Steve is a marketing leader and entrepreneur who built his career and a number of very successful businesses by focusing on innovation and helping transform organizations' business models so that they can meet the needs and demands of today's economy. Steve didn't follow a traditional path. He was educated as an architect and began his career as a video game designer before joining Delvinia,

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:36:14 Alison a market research and data collection company. Over the next 20 years, Steve built their digital marketing and product teams, launching three innovative new businesses before selling the businesses in 2021. Throughout his career, Steve has consistently given back to our profession, including serving on the CMA board for eight years, two as chair. So, Steve, thank you very much for all you do to give back to our profession as well.

00:01:36:16 - 00:01:56:21 Alison Today, Steve and I are digging into the research findings to discuss how ready Canadian marketers are for AI. We'll share key learning from the study and talk about the AI adoption curve. We're also going to discuss the massive opportunity that AI represents for smart marketers to leverage, to lead, and to own AI in a bigger way across organizations.

00:01:56:23 - 00:01:58:08 Alison Welcome, Steve.

00:01:58:10 - 00:02:04:04 Steve Thank you, Alison, and thank you for that lovely introduction as well. And it is always a pleasure to spend time with you.

00:02:04:06 - 00:02:10:19 Alison The feeling is very mutual. So we're going to start by having you share who participated in the study.

00:02:10:21 - 00:02:29:20 Steve I think before we get into maybe the Who, maybe start a little bit with the how we did it, just to make sure everybody's clear in terms of the approach we took. So one of the things we really wanted to do was not only collect the data and get the sort of the statistical side of things, but also get a little sense of how people were really feeling.

00:02:29:20 - 00:02:45:23 Steve So we really wanted to combine a bit of a quantitative and qualitative approach to this as well. The other thing we wanted to do too, because this is a subject around AI, we were like, well, let's use some of these fantastic AI-based tools to be able to collect the information and conduct the research as well.

00:02:46:00 - 00:03:11:21 Steve And I'm proud to say it's a Canadian company called Nexxt and their platform, Inca, which we ended up using to actually collect the data as well. So the CMA marketing community, as normally did not disappoint in terms of providing us with some fantastic results and ideas as well. The good thing was we really aimed to get obviously a broad cross-section of the community, and we absolutely did that.

00:03:11:21 - 00:03:40:09 Steve So there was kind of like about a 50/50 split between brands and service company, agencies as well. Really good representation across sort of companies. Size almost 50% were kind of that 1 to 250 employees, but a quarter of them that participated worked at organizations that had 5000 plus employees. So really good representation. I'd also say things like age, job function, those kinds of things.

00:03:40:09 - 00:03:50:19 Steve So surprisingly enough, too, we had very, very senior people, even some CMOs participated, as well as right down to kind of the manager level as well. So really good cross-section of people.

00:03:51:00 - 00:03:59:12 Alison So I'd love to hear what were the top insights from the study and which ones did you expect and what were you really surprised by?

00:03:59:13 - 00:04:22:22 Steve There was really kind of a couple things sort of jumped out and maybe they weren't necessarily surprises. They were probably more we kind of expected it. But there is one thing that I thought was quite interesting. And then another thing that I think is really important for us to be mindful of. So I think from an expectation perspective, marketers have always tended to be very early adopters to new technology.

00:04:22:22 - 00:04:45:15 Steve I don't think that's any sort of surprise. You think of sort of the history of things like e-commerce or social media or mobile. Typically, marketers were sort of on the forefront of experimenting with those various different new technologies. In fact, about three quarters of the participants cited that they're using AI or generative AI on a weekly basis for business purposes.

00:04:45:17 - 00:05:13:13 Steve But the one sort of caveat I would say about this is, of that three quarters of people, about 80% of them said they're using personal AI account, so they're not using the ones that are really provided to them by the organizations. But when we kind of dug a little bit deeper and we looked at factors like; how knowledgeable they are with generative AI, or do they understand the limitations or even how to apply it in the business, like apply it to specific areas within marketing?

00:05:13:15 - 00:05:33:22 Steve Or I think even the most important thing, which I just touched on a little bit, is the ethical piece of it, the risks associated to it. I would say, surprisingly, it's a really average. The sort of, the community is, is quite sort of kind of below what I would have expected sort of knowledge workers to be. Now again, could be just we're very early days with this as well, and that could be part of it.

00:05:33:22 - 00:05:56:14 Steve And there's still a steep learning curve. I'm not. Which leads me to my second point, which again, something that is not a big surprise and kind of expected. And marketers say over and over again, they are super time-strapped. They've got more channels, more different types of consumer groups to deal with, more types of technology to leverage. They're pushing out more content than ever before.

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:19:23 Steve And by the way, the organization is also asking them to do more with less. So budgets are really strapped as well. So all of those things are putting pressure on them. So they're they're really looking for can AI be an unlock for them to really find those time saving opportunities? Overwhelmingly, even though they're using it a lot, they're really not seeing the benefit of this as of yet.

00:06:19:23 - 00:06:48:10 Steve And and by the way, I wouldn't sort of take that, sort of paint that brush across everybody. I think it just depends on what you're doing. But I would say just as an overall, they're not really finding the benefits. And I think this really comes down to really two fundamental foundational issues that are really going on. So one - almost half, like 44% of the members, really did not know or were not clear what the organization's policy was.

00:06:48:11 - 00:07:11:02 Steve So this is a governance challenge, right. And they're asking the questions around, the policy is vague and doesn't really specify on what restrictions, how do I use it. So it tends to be kind of again, sort of a sort of a one size fits all. And marketers have very unique needs. So there's a real challenge around sort of policy and governance with that as well.

00:07:11:04 - 00:07:31:06 Steve The second thing, which I think is leading to this thing where they're really not seeing the benefits from it, is, again, a little more than half, about 56%, said they either not getting training or was really ineffective. And again, when they say that, it's not that they're not being maybe taught some prompt engineering or some basic elements around,

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:55:00 Steve and by the way, CMA provides all kinds of great training around this, but they're not necessarily seeing the benefits of the training or they're not getting specific training around the areas that matter to them. So they're not really understanding the proficiency around how to use generative AI. They want to see results, right? They feel like this is a great mechanism or vehicle or new technology, but they're not seeing the benefits yet.

00:07:55:02 - 00:08:16:10 Alison That's definitely fascinating, and I am very surprised that more of them are not seeing the benefits yet. And when you talked about the 44% that don't know what their company's guidelines and rules around leveraging it, obviously that's a huge gap that needs to be closed. But is it also contributing to why so many marketers are using their personal accounts instead of business accounts?

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:44:15 Steve Yeah, this this really comes back to the the risk piece that I brought up before. So what's happening is organizations, like most new technologies, there tends to be either someone in the organization, there's either like a CEO, like a centre of excellence that's created around this, or there's a group that's been tasked with this. And often when it comes to these kinds of technologies, it tends to be sort of IT or technology that say, okay, we're going to take this on.

00:08:44:15 - 00:09:11:05 Steve We're going to work with the various different business units and create policies and governance in this course. And also too, it's not, nobody's really sure exactly how it's going to affect marketing, HR or other business functions within an organization. So there was actually a really interesting story. I was meeting with a marketer who will remain nameless a couple of weeks ago, and they pointed out that, yeah, they're running into this all the time, but they figured out workarounds.

00:09:11:07 - 00:09:33:20 Steve So in other words, they're sort of skirting around the policies or the restrictions that are in place because they know where they can actually be able to use it. So that idea that, you know, overall, people aren't seeing the benefits, but when you get into the specifics or people sort of go rogue a little bit, they start to see the real benefits of where it can fit into their specific job function,

00:09:33:20 - 00:09:49:23 Steve the specific area. I mentioned to this individual when we were talking, I was like, do you understand the risks that you're putting an organization under? And they're like, sure. But coming back to that point number one, I only got so many hours in a day and so many people and budgets are tight. I need these kinds of tools.

00:09:49:23 - 00:09:57:15 Steve So there is a there's a bit of a rub starting to happen here between governance and also the effective use of it as well.

00:09:57:17 - 00:10:18:00 Alison Yeah. And there are lots of organizations and members that are in a highly-regulated industry. So that makes it even more challenging. But to the example that you highlight, people will find a workaround because they want the efficiencies and the benefits, and then they also, for their own continual development and to ensure they're staying relevant, they need to understand

00:10:18:00 - 00:10:32:16 Alison Gen AI, and we can experiment to a point in our personal lives, but to be able to use it for business applications is going to help future-proof the marketers as well. So I absolutely understand the desire to find workarounds when you don't have clarity.

00:10:32:18 - 00:11:06:15 Steve Yeah. I think just to add to that one last point, because this is actually, I think is a really important subject around understanding the risks associated to it or the ethical implications of using it, against what the policies are. So yes, there are risks associated by going rogue and finding workarounds, these kinds of things around it. What's also interesting about, again, you think back of when I mentioned social media a couple of times, we could, or IT could, potentially block certain things a lot easier than they're able to do with AI.

00:11:06:17 - 00:11:27:04 Steve The other big thing with AI, too, and I'm not talking about kind of the standard models you see out there, whether it be ChatGPT or Gemini or those kinds of things. AI is being built into every application. So you may have a contract with somebody and it's already built inside of they're starting to use it or leverage it, but that's not been a sanctioned use of AI.

00:11:27:04 - 00:11:50:03 Steve Or, what data are you uploading that to make that function actually work properly? So this idea of like being able to do the workarounds. Sure. But it's, it's almost a it's beyond a wild west at this point. It feels like IT has their work cut out trying to put some kind of corral around this sort of wild stallion that's that's been sort of let loose.

00:11:50:03 - 00:11:54:15 Steve And it seems to be more challenging now than it has been in past technologies.

00:11:54:17 - 00:12:01:18 Alison That's such a great call out. So how is the marketing community using it and how do they plan to leverage it in the future?

00:12:01:19 - 00:12:19:20 Steve We sort of talked about marketers being early adopters. So they're looking across their entire supply chain and saying, you know what? We can see benefits across the board. So just a couple of quick examples. I worked in the market research industry for a long time. So I kind of know that industry fairly well. So I can kind of point at that.

00:12:19:22 - 00:12:39:19 Steve And if you think of within the market research industry or the sort of supply chain that sort of brings it together from briefing to questionnaire development to survey programming to data collection, to analysis, to report all those kinds of pieces in between as well. There is a ton of areas where AI or generative AI could support that.

00:12:40:01 - 00:12:58:11 Steve Questionnaire development would be a perfect sample of that, or even actually to the point of this study, we generated the questions, but then we deployed it using AI. And then it would then continue sort of asking the questions as it went along and did a lot of the initial analysis before sort of human eyes took a look at it as well.

00:12:58:11 - 00:13:21:01 Steve So there are many examples within kind of market research. I'd say the other big area would be on the, call it content or concept development area as well. So early stage concepts, right, where you may have like hey, let's take a look at 14 ideas and then narrow it down to the top three. And maybe we'll go out and test those top three ideas.

00:13:21:01 - 00:13:45:17 Steve So in that area I would say there's there's a lot of usage and appetite to use it as well, particularly in areas like video production. So we're working with a client right now that's actually trying to take long format, bring it into short format, or to cut up or to distribute, small video content across 14 different platforms out there.

00:13:45:19 - 00:14:07:05 Steve It's a big task. So AI, particularly generative AI can do this at just a breakneck speed, and I can see a lot of benefits, and they can too. And they're starting to sort of leverage it. I think the areas that people are more, just a little more cautious around is a probably better way to put it is when you start looking at asset development of actual end ad creative, those kinds of things.

00:14:07:05 - 00:14:28:19 Steve I think there's still a lot of, sort of and I'm not talking about, hey, replicate this ad, and create a bunch of ads, you know, digital ads that are going to be distributed. I'm talking about like real brand creative. I think there's still a lot of questions around, it could maybe assist in parts of it, but actually producing the entire thing, I think, is something where there's a lot of questions around it.

00:14:28:21 - 00:14:53:20 Steve The area that I think in terms of, from a future perspective, that really is being looked at, being used, it's the optimization of programs or campaigns in field. If you start to think back around, right message, right person, right time, mobile, social media, data, they kind of unlock that promise. But always the challenge has been us as humans.

00:14:53:21 - 00:15:13:20 Steve So we've always been sort of in the way of being able to really scale that at any sort of meaningful way, because we can only look at things so quickly. So, whereas those technologies have given us the platforms and the vehicles to be able to do it and be able to be more precise about getting that right message to the right person,

00:15:13:22 - 00:15:37:11 Steve AI holds that opportunity, especially because the human interface where you're telling it, I would like to optimize this program to then go after this specific audience, or I'd like to push harder on that audience, because there's a little piece of data that's coming out that it's like, you know what? It's really not teens, it's really pre-teens. So it's getting that really narrow message that we can go after.

00:15:37:13 - 00:15:51:22 Steve So I think that's where AI and generative AI, in terms of the sort of the optimization, media optimization, campaign optimization could really benefit and get really get the right at the right person.

00:15:52:00 - 00:16:10:01 Alison Those are great examples. There's also a broader business efficiency perspective, like when I think about online reviews and how much effort it took historically to pull and analyze and see the trends and themes out of that, AI, Gen AI can absolutely be such an accelerator on that as well.

00:16:10:03 - 00:16:33:09 Steve So one of my business partners, she talks a lot about, that seems to be coming out of this data and also other organizations we're working with is, just do some of these, you know, like I want to call them administrative things, but can you just do some of these things that I, just back to that time thing, something I just do not have the capacity to do it because I really need to be able to do these other things as well.

00:16:33:09 - 00:17:00:00 Steve So I think we tend to lean towards, you know, concepts and creative and look at the content it's creating. And then, you know, you often hear people say, I want to do the creative part of it. You know, like, I kind of want it to do my laundry, right? That's kind of what I want it to do. Right? So so in that case, what you're saying around, I would definitely say that's something particularly the the market community are definitely hungry for it to do more of as well.

00:17:00:02 - 00:17:21:01 Alison Yeah. So easy to focus on a part of the job that we don't want to give up, instead of realizing that we all have parts of our jobs that we would love to have a smart assistant take on for us. The other powerful way I've seen it used as if you're going into a big presentation and you want to sort of validate the story you're telling or see what sort of tough questions you could face,

00:17:21:03 - 00:17:26:03 Alison Gen AI has been a great ally for me in, in that sort of meeting preparation as well.

00:17:26:05 - 00:17:58:23 Steve I also, to your point, use it for validating just about everything, creating things, even preparing for this, I was like, give me a draft based on these questions, and here's the data. You know, like it just immediately starts to pull things together very, very quickly. Again, I go into it, massage it, and make it my own. But I think you bring up a really interesting point, and we're starting to see this up here as well, both in this data, but more importantly, sort of in kind of deeper workshops with organizations is, there tends to be a lot of usage, I'll call it at the top.

00:17:59:01 - 00:18:20:11 Steve As you start to move down through an organization, you're starting to see more cautious behaviour. Or maybe it's due to the policies, maybe it's due to a number of other things as well. But there tends to be a lot of interest from the top because they can access it, they can see the benefits. I think there's this desire or hungry that it's the unlock, it's the piece.

00:18:20:11 - 00:18:44:22 Steve So it's it's always kind of getting pushed down, which actually you think about it, is totally this the opposite of when social media hit the market. So you had executives coming to, you know, the junior intern saying, what's this tweet thing? How do I post something on, you know, like it was the complete opposite. Now you have, I think, more senior people that are a) very comfortable with technology.

00:18:44:22 - 00:18:50:23 Steve They've grown up with it, but they can see huge business benefits right across the organization.

00:18:51:01 - 00:19:13:22 Alison I'm surprised that I thought the younger marketers, the more junior marketers would be embracing it to the same degree as us. So that's that's a good insight for me to make sure that our more senior people are taking the time to coach and make it safe and comfortable, and encourage our teams to be experimenting and understanding it for the benefit of the business, but also the benefit for their career development.

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:36:02 Steve Yeah, and I'm probably stretching it here a little bit. But back to the 75% are using it and then 80% are using their personal accounts. But I think part of that 80% as well as maybe part of the policy, governance, those kind of things, but I think part of it too is like I'm using my personal account because I don't want them to know I'm using it, or I'm saving time or doing these things. Again,

00:19:36:04 - 00:19:40:08 Steve I'm probably stretching a little bit on that one, but I'm probably close to being accurate.

00:19:40:10 - 00:19:49:20 Alison It makes sense. It makes a ton of sense. Instead of saying, seeing it as it's great that I'm taking the initiative to leverage AI and benefit me and benefit the business.

00:19:49:22 - 00:19:50:20 Steve Exactly.

00:19:50:22 - 00:19:55:04 Alison So what are the risks and challenges that marketers see coming out of the research?

00:19:55:06 - 00:20:19:04 Steve There's really two things. There's sort of like the risk. Part of it is kind of really the challenge. And when I say risk, I mean like, what are you using? How are you using it? What data are you uploading? Like there's there's a lot of challenges that face IT in organizations to figure out, you know, like how do we not contain it, but how do we really get the right policies in place to to really be able to deal with that?

00:20:19:04 - 00:20:43:21 Steve Again, like, I kind of go back to the, you know, you look at the data from the the Canadian Marketing Association members and almost half are not aware that there's an AI policy in place. Like that just sort of shocks me in some ways. In other ways, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But this really starts to come down to, obviously there's communication gaps or maybe these things are happening so quickly, like there's probably a bunch of reasons why that's happening.

00:20:43:21 - 00:21:02:10 Steve But, so that's kind of on the risk side of things I think is is sort of well, kind of thought about and documented. The challenges, I think is a little more interesting. And it comes back to that kind of key question that sort of was bubbling up and filtering out, and there was lots of sort of side conversations in the qualitative piece.

00:21:02:12 - 00:21:28:20 Steve And it's really what does it mean for the future of work? So, and I kind of encapsulate that to be a structure question. So, to me it's like, what does that marketing organization look like in the future? One of the things that I've noticed kind of going around speaking with various different CMOs and other business leaders, is there is a bit of a rise of the in-house agency.

00:21:28:22 - 00:21:53:09 Steve And by the way, I don't think it ever went away per se. I think it's always been there, but there is a lot of appetite around what we can do inside the house. And the reason why that is, is because you look at the promise of things like the agentic movement around agents, right, where agents can work in collaboration with marketers and do a lot of the tasks that we just talked about in terms of use cases.

00:21:53:09 - 00:22:15:01 Steve Right. So so this starts to bring up a lot of questions around what's the structure look like for the marketing organization of the future? I think that's going to be a huge challenge because when structure conversations come up, then we get back to that old age thing around, what's the role of marketers or what's the role of the marketing group within organization?

00:22:15:01 - 00:22:30:19 Steve Which that conversation drives me crazy because I feel like that's been going on for decades. But I do think when you start bringing up structure and where they sit within your organization and how they benefit the organization, I think these are some key challenges that marketers are going to face going forward.

00:22:30:21 - 00:22:58:09 Alison What we do has changed dramatically, will continue to change dramatically. So I share your frustration and that conversation never goes away. I think that's part of the reality that things are changing so quickly, that the core focus of what marketers do, the basics stay absolutely mission critical, but how they come to life, will continue to change and will continue to be having the structural conversations and the broader conversations as well.

00:22:58:11 - 00:23:06:19 Alison So, Steve, I'd love you to share a bit about the AI adoption curve and what it's showing, as well as the learning that our listeners can benefit from.

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:27:15 Steve To me, it's really a key pillar of future growth. But by the way, not just within organizations or brands, but but us as a country as a whole, as Canada as a whole. I mean, it comes up again and again and again that we need to start to look for ways that we can quickly, and by the way, do it in a responsible way.

00:23:27:15 - 00:24:04:14 Steve I will emphasize that, but quickly start to figure out how we adopt to get past some of these barriers that we're facing. So this adoption piece, unlocking it, accelerating it, again in a safe way, it's not just a marketing challenge, but I would say marketers could potentially be a huge leader in this. The thing I think about, I adoption too, and some of the things that are in our way a little bit, you know, I've been saying this for a while and, you know, some of your listeners may disagree with me, but I really think AI has a PR problem.

00:24:04:16 - 00:24:33:19 Steve And if you kind of think about how AI has been characterized for the better part of a century or two centuries, and why I say two centuries is because you go back to, you know, 1818 was when Frankenstein was written. Right? So and you think about, that was the first time when a story was penned, the first time I could think of a story that was penned that talked about, humans creating an artificial being.

00:24:33:19 - 00:25:04:10 Steve And then we all kind of know the story. This being went rogue. And that sort of narrative has just, you know, permeated stories, movies. thank you Hollywood, and media. But it's easy to go to the doom and gloom side of things, sells clicks or sells stories. It sells movies. And so we quickly start bringing the psyche. And I think it's something that's deeply in our subconscious versus something that's actually real.

00:25:04:10 - 00:25:25:02 Steve I think we can all see the benefits of using AI, but I think in the back of our mind, there's always this concern. When I'm at dinner parties, and people ask me my perspective on it. I kind of flip around, will you tell me your perspective? And then we'll we'll talk about it. I think that's good research practice. But that idea of like, oh, it's going to do this and it's going to do that.

00:25:25:02 - 00:25:51:06 Steve And even in some of the universities and, you know, there's a cautiousness about how they integrate it with it. I feel like we're back at the calculator days. You can't bring a calculator to your test. It feels similar to this whole idea around evolution. So I think it's got a huge PR problem, I really do, which is another area where I think marketers could have a huge benefit of really trying to, you know, kind of lower the temperature, show the benefits.

00:25:51:06 - 00:26:12:14 Steve This is not about taking jobs. This is a job creator. It's a growth creator. It's also not going to replace humans. It's going to augment humans in fantastic ways that we can't even imagine. But we need to start to really figure out how we're going to embrace that. There's this whole thing around AI adoption. We talk about it a lot with many of our clients.

00:26:12:14 - 00:26:32:08 Steve If you think of kind of the adoption curve that you mentioned, right? And like a lot of technologies, there's this kind of What, Wow, Wait. so the What is more of the curiosity phase. We're always drawn to these things and marketers more than anybody because we're early adopters in technologies. They have this curious stage and that's the what phase.

00:26:32:10 - 00:26:55:06 Steve Then there's like the Wow, right? The first time you key in a question and it responds very quickly, or you ask it to do a task and it does it very efficiently, like better than you've ever seen. And then all of a sudden it lies to you or it brings something back or produces something. I cannot seem to get it to create that image I'm asking it to create so, so then there's kind of this Wait sort of factor.

00:26:55:06 - 00:27:25:18 Steve So you kind of go through this endless loop of sort of the What, Wow, Wait, function. And I think really the unlock of this, is we need to step back. We need to really, honestly assess where we're at. So it comes back to what I was saying before about the marketers usage is high, but knowledge, limitations, the application of it and the ethical concerns are quite low.

00:27:25:20 - 00:27:47:16 Steve So I think to really get us on a path where we're really understanding the benefits and getting us on that, that sort of sharp incline where it's not just from a technical perspective or an infrastructure perspective, how we're going to integrate AI, but I think we need to ask ourselves, how people are going to integrate this, how the marketers are going to integrate this in their daily functions.

00:27:47:22 - 00:28:12:02 Steve And that starts with an assessment around my knowledge, like, do I comprehend AI concepts, models, usage? Do I even know what an agent versus an assistant is? It's like some of these fundamental things you think, oh, you just do a little reading and you'll figure it out. Or maybe ask ChatGPT and you'll figure it out. But even the limitations, what's its capabilities, what it can and can't do, more importantly, what its weaknesses are.

00:28:12:04 - 00:28:32:05 Steve Application. We just talked about a whole bunch of use cases that workflows. That's digging in and really breaking down what's the workflow of content creation or maybe it's market research or whatever. What is that? And where does AI fit within? And then you can really start to figure out the applications. And we talked at length about the ethical side of things and the risk side of things.

00:28:32:05 - 00:28:52:05 Steve But it's imperative that we all understand when you upload a document, what's really happening here. Right? And I think there's a lot of questions around that. And it exposes a lot of risks side of things. So I believe in order to get us out of this endless sort of What, Wow, Wait that we're in and get us on a better glide path,

00:28:52:06 - 00:28:58:02 Steve we really need to have this honest look at knowledge, limitations, applications and ethics.

00:28:58:04 - 00:29:10:21 Alison I also think in the, because I've gone through the What, Wow, Wait. And for me when I can't get it to do what I was hoping to get it to do, and you get to the Wait stage, it's like part of that waiting is me stepping back and say, okay, so what am I doing wrong, what am I?

00:29:10:21 - 00:29:20:15 Alison I need to learn and evolve my approach because if I'm not getting what I want out of any tool, I have a role to play in why it's not working, so it can help deepen your understanding too.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:22:06 Steve That's a really good way of thinking about it.

00:29:22:08 - 00:29:43:23 Alison Now, there's no doubt that there's a real opportunity for marketers to leverage, lead and own AI in a bigger way across the full organization. I certainly have been around executive suites as the CMO, where when any new technology comes, all the eyes go to the CMO with an expectation that we're going to understand it and figure it out faster, which can be intimidating, let's be honest.

00:29:43:23 - 00:30:04:05 Alison But it's also a huge opportunity to show how we can benefit the broader organization and the important role that marketers have, not just from a marketing perspective, but from a broader business perspective. So what would you recommend CMOs do to ensure that they're really leveraging and benefiting from this opportunity?

00:30:04:07 - 00:30:27:17 Steve If you think about the future structure, the future world, however you want to define it, is very much so around this human AI collaboration, however you want to call it. It's often getting characterized as we are going to live in a hybrid intelligent workforce. And again, it's a bit of a mouthful and I'm sure that's going to go away and someone's going to coin some other term.

00:30:27:17 - 00:30:53:06 Steve To me, it's just simply about human-AI collaboration. We are going to live in a world like that. And I think the important thing about that is, is that this is a people-led transformation, okay? This is not an IT-led transformation. And if there's IT people out there, they're listening to this. My apologies. I think IT has a huge role in all of this.

00:30:53:08 - 00:31:20:11 Steve But this is a people-led. that I was on a call last week with some folks from Silicon Valley. And we were talking about this very subject. And these are ex-Microsoft people, like 30 years of Microsoft that I was talking to, like super brilliant, smart people that it was incredible to listen to them. But we got to talking about the subject and one of them said it's like, do you think Excel was adopted because IT said, everybody start using Excel?

00:31:20:11 - 00:31:54:23 Steve No, it came from the finance department saying there's got to be a better way. I've seen this. Can we use this? So back to the whole thing around, it's getting very domain-specific. So in the marketing function there are agents, assistants, there's applications out there that have deeply-embedded AI that are specific to the marketing function. And it's impossible honestly that IT or even a centre of excellence could understand all the possibilities across organizations. And then how it's going to be adopted inside organizations

00:31:54:23 - 00:31:57:18 Steve and really led. It's going to be people-led.

00:31:57:18 - 00:32:08:08 Alison Now what do you think is needed, and did the research point out any recommendations or ways that we can get people and organizations more comfortable with AI and what it's capable of?

00:32:08:10 - 00:32:30:06 Steve I would say not just training, like I said, around, hey, let's teach me how to be, you know, a better prompt engineer. It's practical examples. It's starting to bubble up and not hide in the shadows. Like, when I was speaking to that marketer a couple of weeks ago and hearing about the ways they're using AI, I'm like, this is fantastic.

00:32:30:10 - 00:32:48:01 Steve You should bring this up. They can't because they've gone rogue. So there's these wonderful examples inside of organizations, and I bet every one of your listeners can probably go, yeah, I've used it in that way, but I haven't told anybody. Right. Or you just hear, you just mentioned two different ways that you're using it, which I thought were fantastic.

00:32:48:01 - 00:33:13:19 Steve Right? So getting these practical ways that we can leverage it, and and communicating across the organization, you know, maybe that's training, maybe that's just better communication. I don't know what you want to call it, but that, I often refer to this as practical and tactical, which sounds odd because I, I always think like AI and these new tech, it's a big strategic problem.

00:33:13:21 - 00:33:24:12 Steve Maybe this is just a real practical problem we need to start to address and more of these kinds of things you can put in front of people, the more they can see ways they can adopt this great new technology.

00:33:24:14 - 00:33:40:21 Alison It's also a link to the earlier comment around organizations need to have policies and guidance in place. The reality is, without that, people are going rogue. So you're not protecting the organization even though they might think they're protecting it. So they just need to get ahead of that.

00:33:40:23 - 00:34:06:20 Steve Yeah. And again, I think that like social media like these other technologies in the past, I think one of the challenges is being able to really communicate that effectively. And by the way, as soon as you get it out, there's like three new things like, you know, like the idea that we went from assistant to agents and that was kind of like people were thinking, oh, it's kind of like maybe 3 to 5 years out kind of thing.

00:34:06:20 - 00:34:28:08 Steve And now we're we're right here in the middle of 2025, and it's already been rolled out all over the place. I think we're really close to to move towards sort of general intelligence, which is a whole other sort of step function in itself and even understanding what that means. But that was 5 to 10. Now they're talking, you know, 1 to 3.

00:34:28:08 - 00:34:42:09 Steve So these things are happening very quickly. That started very early on in my career where I was doing that. And I don't consider myself a fantastic networker, but it is definitely proven to be a real benefit in my career.

00:34:42:11 - 00:34:55:12 Alison That's a great call out. Also feeds into the point that in building a policy, it needs to almost be more principles-based than trying to like, oh, regimented detail, absolutely every aspect of it. Because to your point, by the time you write the policy, it's going to be out of date.

00:34:55:14 - 00:35:16:10 Steve Super smart comment, because that was one of the areas that your members brought up, that it's more principle-based versus, you know, hardcore guidelines. So that comes back to sort of kind of, again, give me some rails for sure. But you know, let me have my own off turns and let me, you know, use my own sort of capabilities.

00:35:16:10 - 00:35:37:17 Steve So it becomes that fundamental principle-based. The only thing that I think I challenge a little bit on that is that it becomes too, too squishy and it becomes too, you know, vague. And that's another point that came up. In fact, I think it was it was over a third were saying like the vagueness of it is one of the concerns as well.

00:35:37:17 - 00:35:55:01 Steve So, so, you know, like it's a tough one to sort of go, okay, here's your rails, don't move out of your rails, but go do your job, right, and be effective. And then the other part of it is like, okay, we're just going to you know, all be really squishy about this. So it's a challenge to get it right.

00:35:55:01 - 00:36:00:18 Steve And by the way, I don't think there's any organization we've worked with, every one of them have been a little bit different.

00:36:00:20 - 00:36:11:11 Alison The reality is any policies around AI today and for the foreseeable future, it's a bit like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Like, you know, you need to try, but you also need to know you're going to be doing it repeatedly.

00:36:11:13 - 00:36:12:22 Steve Yes. Agreed.

00:36:13:00 - 00:36:39:08 Alison So, Steve, this has been a great conversation. Before I let you go, I would love to do a little bit of a pivot. You've got an absolutely enviable and long-standing career in research. You've been an incredibly successful entrepreneur. You've also been a leader within a large multinational. So before we close out today's discussion, what's the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps, especially if they might have some entrepreneurial ambitions?

00:36:39:10 - 00:37:02:04 Steve Well, first of all, thank you for the incredibly kind words. The first thing really is don't be afraid of the boring. And for years, especially when you're in the marketing or technology, and the subject we just talk about, like this is an incredibly kind of, what I would define is a cool area to be working in, and it's fascinating and how it's working, it's cutting edge.

00:37:02:04 - 00:37:23:20 Steve It's there's, you know, just so many super interesting rabbit holes that you can run down with this as well. But I will say, if you're building a business or even if you're starting out in business, don't be afraid of the boring. We built and ran a survey business, a very successful one, and then sold that business in 2021, as you mentioned early on.

00:37:23:21 - 00:37:40:23 Steve And when people ask me, what did you do? Like how did you build the business and it's like, yeah, we we would find, you know, moms in, you know, Saskatchewan that chewed bubble gum and had three kids and wanted to buy a tricycle for their kid. And they're like, and then what? Then when we'd ask them questions. And then what?

00:37:41:01 - 00:38:04:04 Steve That's, that's it. And it was always one of these things where it's like, I always sort of saw you as like an innovator in technology. And yeah, but it was a great way for the business to make money and the stability that came out of that. Yes, it was a boring business model, but it was easy to understand, easy to communicate, and we were able to build a really strong foundation on top of that.

00:38:04:10 - 00:38:29:11 Steve Right? So don't be afraid of the boring. A second thing would be always be working on new ways to create value. And what I mean by that, on two fronts. One, for sure the business. Right? So there is lots of ways that you should always be asking yourself inside of the business, not what the business has done for me, but what I can do for the business.

00:38:29:12 - 00:38:50:09 Steve How can I continue to create value? The other really important factor of that too, is, your own personal value creation. The last organization that I was at, we had a value creation agenda we created and it was all about our products and services and things. So how are we going to add value to the shareholders? And you know, it's a very sophisticated way of looking at things.

00:38:50:09 - 00:39:14:20 Steve And actually I took that and I applied that, in fact, my son did the same thing too, where applied it to creating his own value. In other words, what are the things that I need to learn more of? Training. What are the things I need to to push myself into in terms of meeting other people as well? So all of that helps create his own personal value, and at the same time, it's going to create value for the business as well.

00:39:14:20 - 00:39:38:10 Steve So always be working on new ways to create value. And then the last one as well is, this idea of you know, like I'm sure people are familiar with the network effects. Well, I believe in building your personal network effect. And that's really if you think of yourself as a platform, as a connector, because that's really what platform businesses do.

00:39:38:10 - 00:40:03:21 Steve They connect one side to the other side. If you do that and genuinely do that and do it with honesty and integrity, that always comes back in good ways. So don't always be looking for the opportunity where it's going to benefit you in some direct way. Maybe you can connect somebody with somebody else and that's going to benefit them. I guarantee those will come back.

00:40:03:21 - 00:40:10:07 Steve And that's really about building your own personal network effect. So those are the three things.

00:40:10:09 - 00:40:29:22 Alison That's absolutely outstanding advice. I love the level of personal accountability in it as well. We're ultimately all in control of our careers and our success. And the network effect is my personal favourite. And the fact that you're building it two ways. And it's not always about reach out when you need something. You you need to give in order to take.

00:40:30:00 - 00:40:45:16 Steve I would I would just add one other thing to that as well on that. And part of it is just building your network as well. And, you know, I had the pleasure of attending your CMA talent day and sat with a lot of young marketers. And and by the way, I think we're in really good hands with the future.

00:40:45:16 - 00:41:10:11 Steve There is a really smart, keen, fascinating, well more-versed of where the future holds and then myself. But I would say what's really great is their networking ability is fantastic. And I made a general rule of myself years ago when we were building the business, that I would meet three new people every week, not talk to three people, but meet three new people.

00:41:10:11 - 00:41:40:16 Steve And there's never been a time where there's enough mechanisms and channels, like the CMA, and all these different events to get out, because you never, ever know where maybe you just connect two people, or maybe one of those connections ends up unlocking a career opportunity that you'll never look back. I mean, that started very early on in my career, where I was doing that for a long time, and I don't consider myself a fantastic networker, but it is definitely, it's definitely proven to be a benefit in my career.

00:41:40:18 - 00:41:52:21 Alison Absolutely. Well, Steve, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today and all of the great findings that you've shared with us. I also want to thank you for being such a great partner and for all that you do to give back to our profession. I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:41:52:23 - 00:41:55:02 Steve Thank you.

00:41:55:04 - 00:42:07:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Is direct mail outdated? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Danielle Doiron, General Manager of Marketing at Canada Post and Marc Cooper, President of Junction 59. Their discussion explores how direct mail has evolved and is thriving in today's digital-dominated marketing landscape. They provide insights on leveraging direct mail and share career advice for aspiring marketing professionals, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and deep business understanding.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:24:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:17 - 00:00:48:06 Alison Welcome to today's episode of CMA Connect, where we will be diving into the evolving world of direct mail and modern marketing and brand building. In a world where digital platforms are continually expanding, you may be a bit surprised to learn that direct mail isn't just surviving, it's actually thriving. This episode will explore how direct mail complements digital strategies to deliver impactful results and strengthen brand connections.

00:00:48:08 - 00:01:10:12 Alison Joining me today are two marketing leaders representing both the marketer and the agency perspectives. First, I'm very happy to welcome Danielle Doiron, the General Manager of Marketing at Canada Post. Over the last 22 years, Danielle's excelled at putting customers first, innovating and leading marketing and business initiatives that deliver really strong results. Joining us today is also Marc Cooper, the President of Junction 59.

00:01:10:14 - 00:01:32:22 Alison Marc has extensive experience in creating award-winning campaigns for sectors that are as diverse as financial services, telco and a wide range of small businesses. As a leader at Junction 59, Marc has guided digital transformations and mentored emerging talent focused on delivering the best outcome for clients. So together, we're going to discuss how direct mail can enhance both branding and sales efforts.

00:01:33:00 - 00:01:40:20 Alison We're going to share some successful case studies, and we're also going to do a little bit of myth-busting around traditional marketing channels. So welcome, Danielle and Marc.

00:01:40:22 - 00:01:43:12 Danielle Hi Alison.

March Thank you for having us.

00:01:43:14 - 00:01:52:15 Alison So I'd love to kick off our conversation by asking the question, why should brand and performance marketers reconsider direct mail in the digital age?

00:01:52:17 - 00:02:16:10 Danielle Well, DM has been around for a long time. I think we're, we're all aware of that. And as new media opportunities are continually introduced, sometimes we can forget how the power and the impact that that direct mail can, can have. Direct mail just engages differently. And there's, there's a lot of proof that it doesn't just grab attention, it actually sticks with people.

00:02:16:12 - 00:02:48:05 Danielle DM and the physical aspect of direct mail allows a brand to engage with, you know, a consumer or a customer in a pretty intimate way. But its power doesn't stop there, it it actually, its power also lies in its, in its ability to drive action or drive response to a call to action. If you think about a beautifully designed catalogue that's made its way into the home, it's sitting on a coffee table and think about how it, you know, it helps the brand tell a compelling story.

00:02:48:05 - 00:03:09:09 Danielle Perhaps it helps to introduce, you know, a collection or a product. You know, it tempts the consumer to spend a bit of time, maybe flip through. And I also think it does a really strong job of, of inspiring someone to take action or maybe engage in, in the shopping experience. It's got staying power. It drives brand awareness.

00:03:09:09 - 00:03:36:14 Danielle And if done right and embedded with the right response mechanisms, it can even encourage that shopping experience to continue into a digital environment or a store environment. We spend a lot of time studying the impact of direct mail, and we know that neuroscience tells us that the brain processes direct mail 20% faster than, digital advertising, and it also retains it, which means it gives,

00:03:36:14 - 00:04:11:19 Danielle you know, direct mail has a competitive advantage as it relates to driving emotional engagement and recall. And it gives marketers a competitive advantage and an ability to stand out in what can be a really cluttered marketing landscape sometimes. A great example of that would be actually J.Crew. So they had reintroduced their iconic catalog and engaged, you know, their, their customers and consumers in sort of that nostalgic experience and, and flipping through the pages of that J.Crew catalog and having a brand experience with it.

00:04:11:21 - 00:04:35:10 Danielle But what they did, which is really brilliant, is they, they did embed some of those response mechanisms. You know, they drove to, they used QR codes, you know, to drive to a digital environment. They had personalized, interactive, you know, elements to that catalogue. And it succeeded in helping to drive, you know, engagement from the catalogue or the or the the DM experience into the store or the digital experience.

00:04:35:10 - 00:05:02:20 Danielle And I have to tell you from a personal standpoint, as a deep lover of J.Crew, who is still mourning the loss of of our retail stores in Canada, that brand catalogue has become a brand lifeline, actually for me. It is, you know, it's the closest thing to the, you know, the J.Crew experience shopping experience, you know, that I have now and it has maintained my brand affinity and connection to that, to that particular brand.

00:05:02:21 - 00:05:11:12 Danielle So any time I'm traveling anywhere or I'm in close proximity to a J.Crew location, it inspires me to make sure that it is part of my stop.

00:05:11:14 - 00:05:44:00 Marc And you know, what's really interesting is that as much as we love that physical connection and feeling it and having that emotional connection to DM, direct mail also delivers to the bottom line. It delivers as much as a 29% ROI on average, which is comparable, I think, to paid search and actually outperforms online display ads. So when you integrate that direct mail with digital campaigns, you actually can even boost the response rate higher, by as much as 63%.

00:05:44:02 - 00:05:55:03 Marc So pairing direct mail with digital tools creates that seamless journey from the mailbox to online experiences, really amplifying the impact across all the channels that you touch.

00:05:55:05 - 00:06:31:20 Alison I love the stats, and I really love the case study, as well as the memory glue of direct mail over digital is incredibly powerful. All of us are in the roles we're in to drive business results, so a 29% ROI absolutely gets my attention. And I know we'll get our listeners attention as well. And then building on your J.Crew story, when I was the CMO at Holt Renfrew, the catalog that we did each year to our most top customers, we were able to create such a luxurious experience for them that absolutely resonated and drove both online and in-store business and allowed them to dream.

00:06:31:20 - 00:06:54:23 Alison So absolutely can relate personally and in previous roles to the power of direct mail. So I'll take us a little bit in a different direction. Marketers really need to build their brands, and they also need to be driving very strong business outcomes. And let's be honest, that's not easy. So I'd love to hear how direct mail can effectively build a brand while also driving performance marketing outcomes.

00:06:55:01 - 00:07:16:09 Danielle Direct mail is actually unique because it doesn't, it doesn't require you to choose between, you know, leveraging it to build brand or leveraging it to drive performance and business outcome. It actually can do both, and it can do both within the same piece. And the other thing that makes a direct mail particularly interesting is its versatility across industries as well.

00:07:16:09 - 00:07:42:12 Danielle So we already talked about retail, talked about the example of catalogue. You raise such a good point, Alison. And we can't be the only ones that took note of what was happening in retail last year as it relates to catalogue. Catalogue had a resurgence. Think about all the brands that had incorporated, either revisited, incorporated for the first time, or those that where it's just really a tried and true investment in their overall media mix.

00:07:42:14 - 00:08:07:00 Danielle You know, Amazon, Sephora, Mastermind, Costco, Canadian Tire, like the list goes on and on. But it seemed to have grown last year. And that's because it doesn't, it doesn't just allow an individual to have an experience with a brand, it actually kicks off the selling process itself and catalogue's such a great vehicle to inspire. Whether that's how could I tackle a redesign of a room styling, a, you know, an outfit, you know?

00:08:07:02 - 00:08:32:00 Danielle It also delivers tangible product information that helps to remove barriers to purchase; descriptions, sizes, facts . And then when you incorporate things like QR codes, it does you know, it does allow for a movement quickly into the into the shopping experience itself. It's inspiration and it's action really coming together. It doesn't even have to be anything that, quite that sophisticated as a catalogue.

00:08:32:00 - 00:09:00:05 Danielle It can be a postcard, you know, and that's really more performance, a more performance-driven DM piece, you know, where it's reflecting, you know, reflective of brand. Maybe it's highlighting a high-demand product or a new product launch. You know, integrating an offer in there can have a really strong impact on on conversion. And we, as you might expect, you know, being with Canada Post, we incorporate direct mail, you know, in in a number of different ways in our own marketing mix.

00:09:00:05 - 00:09:27:10 Danielle And we do it targeting audiences. You know, so we have a really great line of sight to the powerful use cases where DM can drive, you know, particularly impressive outcomes and results. In one, one area comes to mind is with our small business customer base. DM is a really important customer acquisition tool for us. We welcome 100,000 new small business customers to our program each year, and DM plays a really big role in that.

00:09:27:15 - 00:09:47:18 Danielle And we know two things about DM. One of them is it allows us to spend a moment to provide deeper information on the value of our program and its benefits to, to this customer base. And that's a really important aspect of DM as it relates to how do we how do we convert and acquire these small business customers?

00:09:47:19 - 00:10:06:22 Danielle But we also know that a small business customer isn't necessarily ready at that at that point in time to respond. The other thing we've seen about the power of DM is its long tail impact. Maybe a small business is in ideation mode around, you know, around, you know, what their business could look like. Maybe they're getting started and they're now seeking partners.

00:10:07:00 - 00:10:35:00 Danielle Maybe they're scaling for growth. So we'll see response to those small business DM campaigns a month, six months later, a year later. And it's because the small business holds on until they're ready to respond. And they do. And I think this example translates really, really well into the financial services space where, you know, personalization, trust, relevance is so very key.

00:10:35:02 - 00:11:02:05 Danielle And, you know, you have a lot of data, you have a lot of insight on your customers. Maybe, you know, DM could be used in cases like you've got a customer coming up for mortgage renewal. And it's an opportunity for you to demonstrate maybe a little bit more of a marketing investment in that customer that you wish to retain, and it allows you to deliver a little bit more insight into or information about, you know, the renewal details, the renewal offer, something a bit more personalized.

00:11:02:07 - 00:11:24:05 Danielle And and when you combine it with QR codes to drive to a digital environment, allowing, you know, presenting maybe, you know, an online booking tool, it actually takes the barriers out of responding to that, you know, you know, to that offer and you know, to that opportunity. You know, sometimes the research process and the selling process can be a little bit longer.

00:11:24:05 - 00:11:52:10 Danielle So take an investment planning campaign, for example, and the ability for DM to be to be able to communicate something very curated and personalized to a recipient, a recipient and a better program. And it could be based on their income level, their age, their goals. Now, when you pair that with digital tools like, you know, calculators and personalized dashboards, you're really providing a connected journey that empowers the customer, offers an even greater value and builds loyalty with that.

00:11:52:14 - 00:12:28:12 Marc One of my favourite campaigns from many years ago, was actually a retirement planning campaign for a financial institution. And the mailer was actually designed to reach out to people who were nearing retirement to give them some personalized insights. And we loaded it up with data based on who they were. Not personal personal data, but personal data that reflected their life stage and their investment portfolio, and made recommendations and suggestions of what they could do next, and also invited them into a one-on-one consultation.

00:12:28:14 - 00:12:59:14 Marc And it's those kinds of touch-points, I think, that really enhance the credibility and strengthen the client relationship that ends up driving action to, you know, meet with that investment advisor or do the next step. I think direct mail really shines here as more than a physical channel when you pair it with data and digital integration or in-person integration, you know, it's really a tool for creating tailored, impactful experiences that clients actually value and remember.

00:13:01:11 - 00:13:34:01 Danielle You know, non-profits actually really excel here, too. I mean, their their strength is in their ability to tell very, you know, emotional stories about the things that they do. And so you take an organization like the Canadian Cancer Society. They use DM to tell very heartfelt, meaningful, compelling stories about their patient's journeys. And when you pair that with clear donation pathways, that make, it makes, you know, giving easy and you know, it allows you to feel good about it.

00:13:34:06 - 00:13:58:01 Marc And, you know, we've always found direct mail to be an incredibly effective tool for not for profit, because it serves that dual purpose - building brand awareness and driving donations. On the awareness side, it really lets organizations tell that compelling story about their mission and their impact, and that helps them create that deeper emotional connection with their donors.

00:13:58:03 - 00:14:30:11 Marc And then, of course, consistent branding plays a crucial role in long term brand building, you know, reinforcing these connections while establishing and maintaining trust. We've talked about trust a little bit a number of times, I think, today. But at the same time that direct mail is functioning as a performance marketing piece because it's got really clear calls to action, you know, personalized appeals, urgent messaging that implies or rather urgent messaging that inspires immediate support.

00:14:30:12 - 00:15:03:21 Marc For example, we've worked with MADD Canada and Save the Children to have these work brilliantly across their campaigns. The direct mail efforts combined impactful storytelling with clear donation pathways, delivering really measurable fundraising results. And they don't just reach donors either. They engage them emotionally. So it's not just about getting to them, it's about engaging with them and motivating them to act and leave that lasting impression of the organization's brand and mission.

00:15:03:23 - 00:15:24:16 Marc So when it's done right, direct mail for not for profits builds really strong foundation for long term donor relationships while still delivering those measurable results. It's this ability to achieve both the storytelling and the action is why direct mail remains really such a powerful tool for not for profits.

00:15:24:18 - 00:15:52:06 Alison It's really helpful, the way you're bringing the role of direct mail and the power of direct mail to life with these examples. And just to see how broad an impact it can have. Recently I read some research around performance and brand marketing because it has arbitrarily been a bit of a separation in the marketing profession, and there's some great research by Analytic Partners that showed a combined approach can generate a medium uplift of 90% while treating brand and performance marketing

00:15:52:06 - 00:16:14:16 Alison as separate goals results in a penalty of 40%. So if you think about that and then apply it to direct mail, where you can actually do both in the same vehicle, that's an incredibly powerful opportunity for a lot of our listeners. So with digital dominating marketing to a large degree, the power of more traditional channels like direct mail and a more holistic and integrated marketing approach can often be forgotten.

00:16:14:18 - 00:16:22:01 Alison How does direct mail integrate with digital channels to amplify both branding and sales efforts? Danielle, do you want to start?

00:16:22:03 - 00:17:02:00 Danielle I mean, we're big believers in they're better together. And actually DM's ability to integrate with digital is one of its most exciting strengths. It's never one or the other. It's actually the sum of the parts that holds the greatest power, because we know that when paired, they amplify one another. And so I think any marketer who is is listening to this associated with the CMA knows, you know, the power of both in the mix and that it is the one-two punch or the really strategic sequencing of digital and DM that drives the greatest outcome for awareness.

00:17:02:02 - 00:17:35:03 Danielle It is a big influence of consideration and and certainly response, and even how you embed digital consideration in DM is really, really important. So, you know, whether that's personalized URLs, QR codes or augmented reality features, you know, that helps to create that very seamless or connected bridge between, you know, a physical piece or what's in your mailbox and your, you know, your online or physical channels or your online and physical experiences.

00:17:35:05 - 00:17:55:05 Danielle You know, we talked a lot about QR codes and for good reason, given their versatility. But they're just, they're really just one part of the puzzle. A postcard, you can take a postcard, for example, and link directly to a personalized landing page tailored to the recipient, while self mailer could do something like embed interactive elements, that get your, you know, recipient engaged.

00:17:55:07 - 00:18:07:02 Danielle You know, whether that's video, survey, quizzes, maybe even helping you capture a little bit more intelligence about about your customer, or about your prospective customer as well, but certainly all boost engagement.

00:18:07:04 - 00:18:32:13 Marc Yeah. And, you know, the integration actually works across generations, too. I think there's a tendency to think that younger audiences like Gen Z don't actually pay attention to direct mail, but we've got some really great research that says they spend an average of 12 minutes engaging with their mail, and they actually find addressed mail more trustworthy. In fact, 42% of them, I think, according to the research, say that direct mail is credible.

00:18:32:15 - 00:19:07:08 Marc And that makes direct mail not just a creative channel, but actually a credible one as well. And when you pair it with some of those digital tools that Danielle was talking about, like personalized offers or exclusive content, it boosts its impact significantly. Campaigns that combine direct mail with digital tools see response rates increase by up to 63%. Now, I think I already said that earlier, but it's worth repeating because that's a really impressive number, and it makes it really clear that that integration is key in driving great results.

00:19:07:10 - 00:19:37:12 Alison That is definitely an impressive number. And you've done some myth-busting for me as well. I didn't appreciate that younger Canadians are as receptive as they clearly are to direct marketing, and the trust factor of addressed mail is also a wonderful insight that can be leveraged. So what are some examples of brands that are successfully using direct mail for both storytelling and driving immediate action, knowing that every marketer today absolutely needs to be able to deliver results on a weekly, monthly, and quarterly basis.

00:19:37:14 - 00:19:57:22 Danielle One example that comes to mind is with, it would be Structube. So for those of you who don't know Structube, they are a Montreal-based furniture company with a pretty healthy physical footprint in Canada. After three years of being very, digitally-focused in their marketing strategies, they made the decision to incorporate DM to test.

00:19:58:00 - 00:20:27:17 Danielle They did it in a really smart way, it was an eight by ten flyer, very high quality, high impact, you know, deeply-branded experience in that flyer, demonstrating, you know, their modern brand reflecting their website aesthetic. And you know they were obviously able to leverage that piece to depict the really beautiful, you know, furniture collection and lines that they, that they offer Canadians, which really stood out in the mailbox and it was just a physical extension of of their brand story in doing it.

00:20:27:17 - 00:21:03:13 Danielle But what made this example so effective was that it connected storytelling and action. Structube was, very clear on their targeting strategies. They knew the audience that they were pursuing. That audience included groups like consumers living in apartments and condos, which would be, you know, a high target for the Structube brand. And the results were pretty, pretty impressive. That mix that we've talked about and the power of that mix, drove an increase of 70% in-store traffic and a significant improvement on their overall marketing ROI to the broader program.

00:21:03:15 - 00:21:25:14 Danielle And they essentially, you know, recognized its value in building both awareness and attracting customers to their physical store network. What what was really interesting about that piece on the physical store network side, because the flyer wasn't just about aesthetics, it actually became part of the selling process. Their customers brought that flyer into stores. You know, their shopping experience had already begun.

00:21:25:20 - 00:21:41:21 Danielle And actually, it drove considerable activity to their website where the research process and the consideration process and the shopping process continued. You know, they they brought that flyer into stores, and it became part of the engagement they had with store clerks, you know, in their store environment.

00:21:41:23 - 00:22:02:23 Alison So you both are building a really compelling case to get marketers to rethink the marketing mix and the role of direct mail within it. Now, marketers can be a skeptical group, and there's no doubt that we will still have people tuning in today who continue to discount the role and potential impact that direct mail can deliver for brands and businesses.

00:22:03:01 - 00:22:22:07 Alison So let's do a bit more myth-busting. I'd love you to share what marketers can do to test and measure the impact of direct mail in their campaigns so that they can experiment and do it in a way that will suit their budgets and help them understand the true power and impact of direct. Marc, do you want to kick this off?

00:22:22:09 - 00:22:44:17 Marc Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, first and foremost, when it comes to crafting effective direct mail campaigns, we have a pretty handy framework to keep in mind. And it's the 40-40-20 rule or the 20-40-40 rule. Depends on who you ask, but it breaks down the key components of a successful campaign, where 20% of the impact comes from the creative.

00:22:44:21 - 00:23:05:02 Marc So we don't like to talk about that too much with the creative department. But it's true. It's only 20%. 40% actually comes from the offer. And then the other 40% comes from the targeting. And this rule emphasizes how crucial it is to focus on the audience you're reaching and the relevance of the message that you're delivering, in that order.

00:23:05:02 - 00:23:11:08 Marc So when you start to test, those are the the kind of the order that you're going to want to test things in.

00:23:11:10 - 00:23:37:07 Danielle Yeah, absolutely. You know, creativity, I do believe though, creativity is a must for grabbing attention, especially in all crowded marketing spaces, where we're competing for, you know, for share of mind and, and attention. But, and creativity is actually where DM can really shine. But it's also the targeting and the offer. It's the combination of the creativity, the targeting and the offer that's really going to drive relevance.

00:23:37:09 - 00:24:03:04 Danielle And not unlike digital. You can test DM. You can run an AB test and understand, compare two designs, compare different offers, compare, you know, call to actions to see what works and what drives and what drives response. Today we also have some really exciting tools like predictive eye tracking that can take direct mail creative to really the next level.

00:24:03:06 - 00:24:31:19 Danielle So predictive eye tracking uses machine learning and AI to evaluate an individual's response to a piece, before it even goes to print actually, which makes it really a really powerful tool in ensuring that your investment is that much more likely to hit the mark. It analyzes things like colour, typography, images, layout, and predicts where the attention will land, guiding, you know, guiding the marketer on

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:40:11 Danielle you know, where to place the most important elements of that piece for optimal response, and essentially creating a heat map of hot zones.

00:24:40:13 - 00:25:09:20 Marc And, you know, I think tools like predictive eye tracking also highlight how much direct mail has evolved to become just as measurable and data-driven as digital channels. You know, whether you're leveraging AI to optimize your design or tracking results with the personal URLs , today's direct mail campaigns are built for precision. This combination of creativity, data, and technology ensures that every campaign is optimized for success.

00:25:09:22 - 00:25:21:20 Alison So we've covered quite a wide range of topics. We've also done a little bit of myth-busting. So what is the top takeaway that you think will most set up our listeners for success? And Danielle, why don't you get us started?

00:25:21:22 - 00:25:44:01 Danielle Hopefully, you know, we've left everyone with the notion that direct mail isn't just surviving, it's actually thriving in the digital age. You know, it's it's memorable, it's engaging, it builds relationships and it drives reponse. And I think we've provided some really compelling, you know, use cases and proof points of it doing just that, which is, its brand in hand.

00:25:44:05 - 00:26:06:22 Danielle And so it's going to naturally help connect your brand with your customer or your prospective customer. But it also is really effective in driving results. In a world dominated, you know, by digital, increasingly by digital and social feeds and fatigue, as a result, DM brings something really special to the table and unique and can be used exactly in that, in that way.

00:26:07:00 - 00:26:31:07 Marc Absolutely. You know, I also think that direct mail is really proof that traditional channels, when you combine them with digital tools, can be more powerful than ever. We've shared a number of stats I think that prove that point. It's about making meaningful connections that drive real outcomes. So, as Danielle said, don't overlook direct mail and don't overlook your mailbox.

00:26:31:09 - 00:26:35:10 Marc It's where some of the most impactful marketing is actually happening today.

00:26:35:12 - 00:27:05:09 Alison That 63% stat definitely resonated with me. Marc. So thank you for helping quantify. It's always really beneficial to understand the actual tangible business impact and consumer impact, and you've both done a great job of bringing that to life. Now you both have incredible careers from both the marketer and the agency side. So before I let you get on with your busy days, I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from some advice and understanding how you helped accelerate your career.

00:27:05:11 - 00:27:14:18 Alison So to close off today, I'd love you to share one piece of advice that you would give to marketing professionals who aspire to follow in your footsteps. Marc, do you want to go first?

00:27:14:20 - 00:27:44:14 Marc You know, I think more than anything, it's being curious and harnessing your curiosity to share that with other people. We all got into this business because we loved advertising or creativity or a turn of phrase. But if you can be curious about what's next and what's out there and what's happening and share that with your colleagues, your clients, your boss, I think that you're going to accelerate your career.

00:27:44:14 - 00:28:05:03 Marc And it doesn't have to be hard. You know, it doesn't have to be speaking in front of a large group or recording a podcast. It can be sending a simple memo or a note about something you've learned and explored. And I think really it's about, just to say it again, be curious and harness the power of your curiosity to share that with other people.

00:28:05:05 - 00:28:07:10 Alison Great advice. Danielle, what would you add?

00:28:07:12 - 00:28:28:15 Danielle On a similar note, I think we all know that one of the strengths that a marketing team brings to any organization is a deeper understanding of customer. One of the things, I've been with Canada Post for 25 years, and something that I've done in my own, within my own journey that I have, that's been important, is to get as close to the business as I can.

00:28:28:17 - 00:28:57:23 Danielle And what that allows is a deep understanding of how we actually solve the customer's business need. So the marriage of the two, really powerful for any high performing marketing organization. But also I find you'll discover things that the business does that matters to the customer, that we haven't necessarily been talking to the customer about. But the knowledge or the combination of knowledge of the business and the knowledge of the customer is when I think any marketing organization can have the greatest impact for a company.

00:28:58:01 - 00:29:05:21 Alison I love that advice, and I'd love for you to give our listeners a couple of quick examples of how you've helped get really close and embedded in the business.

00:29:06:03 - 00:29:38:13 Danielle Well, one example would be, you know, my, the time I spent as a marketer in our product organization, we recognized that the e-commerce market was quickly emerging in Canada. It had happened earlier in other countries, so we were watching what was happening globally, and we knew it was an opportunity to deeply understand what our customers needed from us and what we needed to bring about as a business to be partners to the retailers who were entering into this space with pace and determination.

00:29:38:15 - 00:30:07:20 Danielle And so we we deeply understood what we would need to do as an organization in terms of the build of new capabilities, new technology and how, and the value propositions and how to best articulate them to, you know, to an audience that we were, you know, we were reaching across to in partnership to ultimately enable the early days and stages of e-commerce in Canada and to play a meaningful role at the onset.

00:30:07:22 - 00:30:18:21 Danielle So it was product and marketing and technology all huddled, to make sure that we were aligned around being a better partner to Canadian business at a time when they needed us.

00:30:18:23 - 00:30:37:08 Alison That's a great example that also brings to life the advice that Marc gave, you did that because you stay curious, and that's such an important role for every marketer at every level in our careers. So Danielle and Marc, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join me today.

00:30:37:08 - 00:30:39:01 Danielle Thanks so much, Alison.

00:30:39:03 - 00:30:44:09 Marc Thank you so much for having us.

00:30:44:11 - 00:30:57:01 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What opportunities can women's professional sports create? In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Allison Sandmeyer-Graves, the CEO of Canadian Women & Sport. They discuss how the momentum of women's professional sports can dismantle barriers women and girls face in society, including issues related to politics, representation on corporate boards, gender-based violence, and pay equality. They highlight the rise of professional women's sports in Canada and their impact on physical and mental health. They also cover the growing investment in women's sports leagues and teams, and the role marketers and brands play in supporting them. Allison also encourages anyone with CEO ambitions to invest in the relationships they build.

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:12:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:12:21 - 00:00:36:10 Alison Women in professional sport are finally getting their moment, which is outstanding news for girls and women at all levels of sport. Now, while this is certainly an important and exciting progress, it's also a starting point. We have a long way to go to get to the finish line and to truly achieve equity. In today's episode, we will explore what led to the long overdue rise of professional women's sport and why it's so important.

00:00:36:12 - 00:00:57:18 Alison We'll discuss why it's about so much more than sport, and talk about the broader societal impact that it represents. We're also speaking to the rebalancing that's underway, the opportunity the opportunity that represents for savvy brands, and how marketers can help accelerate the great momentum we currently have. Joining me today is Allison Sandmeyer-Graves, who is the CEO of Canadian Women in Sport.

00:00:57:20 - 00:01:22:12 Alison Allison's an experienced social impact professional, who's motivated by the potential for systemic change. She also believes that we achieve the greatest outcomes when we can harness the resources of diverse sectors. Allison loves the challenge of building collaborative platforms that will drive innovative solutions, create shared value and help empower communities. That's why she's such a terrific fit for and has thrived in her current role for nine years.

00:01:22:14 - 00:01:48:05 Alison Canadian Women in Sport, the organization that Allison leads, is dedicated to creating an equitable and inclusive Canadian sport and physical activity system that empowers girls and women as active participants and as leaders. And that's within and through sport, with a focus on systemic change, Canadian Women in Sport partners with organizations, governments and leaders to challenge the status quo and build better sport through gender equity.

00:01:48:07 - 00:01:54:08 Alison It's a mission very close to my heart, and it's a true pleasure to welcome my namesake, Allison, to the podcast today.

00:01:54:10 - 00:01:58:09 Allison Hello. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

00:01:58:09 - 00:02:03:21 Alison I would love to start by having you share a bit about your organization and the very important impact that you're having.

00:02:03:23 - 00:02:24:11 Allison I love talking about Canadian women in sport. I think for many people who are tuning in, who have experienced the power of sport in their lives, I mean, that is what our organization is truly about. Taking a sport system that for decades has done things in a certain way and frankly, served some people better than others.

00:02:24:13 - 00:02:52:11 Allison And making it more inclusive and more equitable so that as many girls and women as possible, can access the tremendous benefits of sport. And we do this work because we believe that sport is a platform for broad social change. When you think about the individual benefits that sport brings to people's lives and how that makes them stronger in their abilities and in the opportunities afforded to them.

00:02:52:13 - 00:03:34:05 Allison When you think about sport as a platform for leadership and the need for more women in all forms of leadership in our society, that is what really motivates us. That's what gets us excited. The idea of using sport as a vehicle for for bigger change for women and girls, and we do that by working within the system itself. Making the sport system more inclusive, more equitable, not fixing the girls, not fixing the women, but really looking at how can we take the way that sport is delivered, the way it's governed, the policies, the practices, the culture, and create more fairness so that girls and women are welcomed in, are supported and engaged to be part

00:03:34:05 - 00:03:42:06 Allison of this and are able to thrive, as we say, in sport, but also well beyond through sport.

00:03:42:07 - 00:04:10:02 Alison It's such an important mandate and I know from our earlier conversations, we both have personally benefited from being involved in sport early in our lives and it led to so many great professional and personal experiences that really made us the leaders we are today. So I am so passionate about the mission of your organization and the important role that you're playing for future generations, as well as helping to nurture truly professional athletes.

00:04:10:02 - 00:04:13:10 Allison Not a role that I ever aspired to, but without sport

00:04:13:10 - 00:04:22:12 Alison I truly wouldn't be the person or the leader that I am today. So I want more of Canadians and Canadian women and girls in particular, to be able to benefit from that.

00:04:22:14 - 00:04:53:03 Allison Absolutely. You know, I have the great privilege of encountering so many Olympians and Paralympians. And so I always feel, like I need to say, I'm a very average athlete. But, but I think what's great about sport is that you can you can take it as far as your interests and your abilities can take you. And in Canada, that increasingly means to a livelihood, to a professional livelihood, as an athlete.

00:04:53:05 - 00:05:13:07 Allison But you you don't need to aspire to that. And you don't need to achieve at those levels to get all of these benefits, to get the physical health benefits, the mental health benefits, the resiliency, the, the ability to set goals and strive towards them, to work as a team. There's, you know, so much that can come from sport.

00:05:13:09 - 00:05:36:20 Allison There's so much at stake, I would say, for women and girls, in our society to access these sorts of things and, I, I want the whole, the whole pyramid, if you will, all the way from professional right down to the grassroots. But it's really about getting as many Canadian women and girls playing and experiencing this as possible.

00:05:36:20 - 00:05:40:06 Allison And the whole ecosystem has to work together to create that.

00:05:40:08 - 00:05:49:05 Alison Absolutely. Now, building on that, what led you to join the organization nine years ago, I think it was 35 years old at the time, and how has it evolved under your leadership?

00:05:49:07 - 00:06:18:10 Allison I was, so intrigued by by the mission, by the mandate. You know, we've already spoken about, you know, my personal experiences of the power of sport. I'm a social impact person. So my career has been in the nonprofit space. I really like being part of contributing to big movements that help to, this is going to sound so corny, but, like, make a better world, right?

00:06:18:10 - 00:06:52:15 Allison I want to contribute to communities and societies and the sort of change that, I want to see and the sort of the society that I want to live in. So that's what really motivates me. I think at the time it was known as CAWS, some people who are tuning in may know it as that, now Canadian Women in Sport, you know, had been around for three and a half decades and it had such, such a wonderful reputation for really credible work, for strong advocacy,

00:06:52:17 - 00:07:24:23 Allison great, just was, was a wonderful resource within the sport system for those who wanted to be part of making a better sports system and unlocking the potential therein. At the same time, big mandate, you know, all sport, physical activity, all of Canada, all levels, very little capacity. And so, it was a wonderful challenge to step into as a leader to say, okay, there's something really great here.

00:07:24:23 - 00:07:50:19 Allison There's this wonderful set of assets. But how can we, how can we expand the impact? How can we take it further? Obviously a lot of pressure. A lot of people had done a lot of work to get it to that point, and I felt a big responsibility in stepping into that role, to to really take their vision for this organization and the sport system and the impact that they wanted to have and steward it forward.

00:07:50:21 - 00:08:20:07 Allison And the beautiful thing is, is that, as I think I would say, luck would have it, you know, there was government interest and investment in the women's movement and in women's sport that was just around the corner. And some really wonderful things happening around. And so we've been part of building this big movement for women's sport in the country, but also joined by so many others who've been so essential to this organization's growth and development and the movement as a whole.

00:08:20:09 - 00:08:39:21 Alison That's amazing. And if making the world a better place is corny, then let's embrace corny. We should all have that as one of our core purposes in life. Now, you've clearly accomplished a lot. And this might be a tough question because of everything that you've done, but what accomplishments are you most proud of?

00:08:39:23 - 00:09:16:04 Allison I was giving this some thought and I think the thing that really stands out most for me is I'm really proud of what this organization stands for and what it means to people. Because I get to be out at events and and different things in the industry, I often have the opportunity to hear directly from, people of all genders who want to talk to me about what this organization means to them, and how their interactions with this organization have been a positive and uplifting thing for them and for the people that they work with.

00:09:16:06 - 00:09:36:19 Allison I get lots of wonderful feedback, and that that makes me feel really proud of the work that we're doing. That tells me that we're doing the right work, with the right quality as well. And we do that work with hundreds of sport organizations and thousands of leaders in the system every year. It's really focused on education.

00:09:36:23 - 00:09:55:05 Allison So making sure that they they have the knowledge and the awareness, of the issues, also the best practices and solutions, what they can do to make things better for the girls and women in their communities or their sport. And then we help them to take action. So we help them see that through into real change.

00:09:55:07 - 00:10:21:10 Allison And it's really big things and it's really small things. Sometimes people just want to talk about the fact that they're having totally different conversations that they were having before they worked with us, and sometimes they say we've developed totally new programs, or we've completely changed our policies, or we've got more girls participating than ever before, thanks to these these changes that we've made. That feedback is always, always lovely.

00:10:21:10 - 00:10:39:21 Allison Who doesn't want to get positive feedback about something that they work so hard at and where, you know, that's so connected to your values? But it really tells me that we're on the right track and that what we do matters, which is why we do this. It's it's not enough to just get up and do well-intentioned work every day.

00:10:39:21 - 00:11:03:16 Allison You want to know that it's actually making the change that you want it to make. More recently, with the release of the Rally Report, which is a signature research paper that we put out, every two years, once again, I saw that we were the catalyst for a big national conversation about girls and sport and the importance of it, and what we can do to continue to push this forward.

00:11:03:18 - 00:11:29:19 Allison And what's really exciting is that there's a new element to the conversation now, which is professional sports. And what impact that is going to have on what's happening right at the grassroots. So I'm very optimistic about this organization, certainly. But but the women's sport movement and what it's going to represent for business and for society.

00:11:29:21 - 00:11:39:22 Alison So building on the recently released Rally Report, you talked about the professional sports and how that's relatively new for sure to our country. Were there

00:11:41:05 - 00:11:46:08 Alison other dramatic changes or things that had surprised you from the previous report two years ago?

00:11:46:10 - 00:12:13:21 Allison One of the things that we're most excited to see is what looks like an increase in girls regularly participating in sport and physical activity. Those are hard numbers to move, if I'm being honest. I mean, this is a big country. It's really complex. There's so many variables that can enable or limit girls in their participation individually and then en masse.

00:12:13:23 - 00:12:46:22 Allison And so to see that number shift was thrilling, frankly, because it's a wonderful indicator that, you know, the government investment and the investment by our sport organizations, the leaders of all kinds, all across this country, by parents, by media, by brands. Like everybody is starting to pull in the same direction. And it seems to be working. So what we are really committed to, and we're inviting others to join in with us, is let's make this a trend, right?

00:12:46:22 - 00:13:07:10 Allison Anybody who works with data knows that there can be a blip, right? And it can go up. But unless we continue to bring attention, unless we continue to push it to that tipping point, there's always a chance that that we could see a reversal or a decline. So we want to see this as a trend really moving as ever upwards.

00:13:07:12 - 00:13:28:12 Allison The good news also is that the gap between girls and boys is or is closing in that respect. But as I am, I'm saying these days, you know, 68% of boys playing is shouldn't be the ceiling. Like that's not the goal. That's too low too. So we want to work to 100% of girls participating in quality sport regularly.

00:13:28:14 - 00:13:36:09 Allison That I think will be a total game changer for our society. And that is the sort of change that I want to be part of.

00:13:36:11 - 00:13:49:19 Alison Absolutely. And you made my month by sharing that stat, the fact that we actually have positive progress and I fully support what can we do to make it a trend, so on a personal level, honestly, anything I can do to support, sign me up.

00:13:49:21 - 00:14:14:13 Allison That sounds good. It really is. Oh, this this is going to be super cliche, but it is totally a team sport because it is so big. It is so complex, and I know that that can really intimidate people. I know that that can make it seem, maybe hopeless at times. But we talk to people who are facility managers,

00:14:14:13 - 00:14:38:17 Allison we talk to people who are entering in their careers. We talk to, you know, the people who are at the very top of their careers. Every one of them has a sphere of influence. And what we, I would say more than hope, what we call on everybody to do with that sphere of influence is to look around and see what, how can I use that to make things more equitable, to make things more welcoming and inclusive?

00:14:38:17 - 00:14:48:07 Allison Whether it's for one girl, could be a relative, or many girls, it's all part of creating the change.

00:14:48:09 - 00:15:08:01 Alison Absolutely. Now, we've talked a bit about, while it's certainly about sport, it is about so much more. And you've shared some of that broader impact. But I'd love you to go into a bit more detail on the broader impact and crucial role that girls and women in sport can benefit from.

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:27:07 Allison You know, everyone benefits from, I'm going to I'm going to put the qualifier that it's got to be quality and inclusive sport, safe sport, everyone can benefit from that. We know that. Absolutely. This isn't just a conversation about girls in that respect. But I, I mentioned the fact that, you know, there's there's a lot at stake for girls and women.

00:15:27:09 - 00:15:57:17 Allison We've made progress, no doubt, in our society when it comes to gender equality. But, we know that there are significant gaps or significant distance yet to close when it comes to women in politics, women on corporate boards or in the C-suites. When it comes to, things like gender- based violence, you know, women are still up against many, many, many barriers in our society.

00:15:57:17 - 00:16:40:17 Allison Pay equity would be another one. And, you know, as we see so clearly, the progress that we've achieved can also be undone, right? It's not it's not linear and it's never assured. And so there is a lot at stake for women and girls always in our society. And sport is just such a powerful tool, I would say, on an individual and a collective basis for really making, making progress really closing those gaps. On an individual basis,

00:16:40:17 - 00:17:06:06 Allison as, as I mentioned, you know, it helps to make the individual stronger, right? We know that girls who play sport, have stronger mental health, which I know is a concern for so many right now. We know that it makes them physically healthy in myriad ways that benefit them, not just right now while they're young, but serve them well throughout the lifespan.

00:17:06:07 - 00:17:36:07 Allison But then it's also that platform for leadership, for them to develop and practice those skills in a supported way that serve them well at school. It's connected to educational attainment. This serves them well in their careers. It's connected to higher wages. And of course, you know, we all love the statistics. The statistic of 94% of C-suite execs, have sport in their background and cite sport as an important influence and support for them.

00:17:36:09 - 00:18:01:10 Allison So on an individual basis, it's looking pretty good. But then collectively, when you think about all of these girls entering into adulthood with all of this scaffolding, we can create such stronger families, stronger communities, you know, have them achieve and contribute in ways that, you know, to this point, we haven't been able to or haven't been invited to over the years.

00:18:01:10 - 00:18:26:14 Allison So, but then it also challenges a lot of gender norms. You can't watch a rugby game and then think that women can't be firefighters. So there's still all these limiters on women's potential. And sport really helps to break those sorts of things down. So it's it's about sport. It's about it's about people playing. It's about people having fun.

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:34:00 Allison But it's also about so much more than that. And that,that's my why and that's the organization's why.

00:18:34:01 - 00:18:50:09 Alison That's amazing. And you you mentioned earlier you have people that are sharing their personal stories and reaching out to you on a regular basis. And that's and part of the incredibly fulfilling is the leader of the organization to hear, do you have a favourite story or someone that reached out recently to share their personal anecdote?

00:18:50:11 - 00:19:21:12 Allison You know, the one one that comes to mind is, which wasn't shared with me personally, but one story that comes to mind is just the stories that we get back from, from parents, actually, because we work with, we work with the sport organizations and the sport leaders in many cases, like really behind the scenes, helping them to be the best that they can possibly be for the girls that they are trying to reach and serve.

00:19:21:14 - 00:19:42:11 Allison We do a granting program with some funding from the Government of Ontario here in Canada, and it provides both funds to the organizations, plus also training, because sometimes you get money, but in order to use that money really, really well, you need a little more. You need a little more training on, how do you really create environments that are going to work for girls?

00:19:42:11 - 00:20:12:07 Allison How do you consult girls so that we're not making assumptions about what we think they might like, but we're actually hearing it directly from them and then they implement their ideas, with this support. And in gathering feedback from the parents of the girls in their programs, there have there's been stories coming back about, you know, my daughter wasn't sure that she was going to keep playing sport, but the opportunity to be part of this program really changed her mind.

00:20:12:09 - 00:20:36:12 Allison Or, you know, it's just the little things like, you know, this is the best program that I've ever been part of. It's not our program, but we were helping them behind the scenes to be the best that they can be. And it's not just that girl that's going to benefit, it's every girl that walks through their doors for years to come that is going to benefit.

00:20:36:12 - 00:21:05:21 Allison And for me, that's the power of the systems change work. There's absolutely a need to work with the individual girls and empower girls and women one on one and and as groups. But our super power is that systems work. And what I hope this does, you know, if we do our job well and if others do their job well, you know, we won't need to be here and we won't still be having these same conversations in ten, 20, 30 years.

00:21:05:21 - 00:21:25:10 Allison And that means that girls are being invited into these spaces and having an experience that is so compelling and so enriching for them that they come back week after week, year after year. And that is ultimately how we get to that big goal that we're shooting for.

00:21:25:12 - 00:21:49:14 Alison It's a such an important and impressive superpower, and being able to customize the experience and provide that guidance and support to the different sporting organizations so that they can get ahead of the reasons why girls at different stages in life consider opting out is so important. Are there a couple of typical reasons that girls opt out that you could share with our listeners today.

00:21:49:16 - 00:22:16:21 Allison Oh yes. Sadly, there are many reasons. But as I like to say, to put a positive spin on that. It means that there's so many opportunities to make an impact and to to be part of, you know, making that change, using whatever you're great at or whatever your influence is. Girls tell us that the, that sport doesn't feel like it was designed for them.

00:22:16:23 - 00:22:39:08 Allison And, often that can be really subtle. And at times it can be really overt. And so, but what that means, I can give you examples, like, for instance, the overt is that they get they don't get their own equipment, they get the hand-me-down equipment from the boys team when that boys team gets the new stuff.

00:22:39:10 - 00:23:06:03 Allison And so they're getting stuff that's like used, which is, you know, fine. The world, the sport world goes round on used equipment. But it doesn't fit them. It wasn't made for them. And by comparison, it feels like they're really very second class citizens. So those are some of the more overt ones. Other ones are just, I don't know, something about this program just doesn't doesn't work for me.

00:23:06:05 - 00:23:27:23 Allison It doesn't really meet my needs or meet my interests. And that can be much more intangible, I think, for coaches and program leaders to really know what to do with that. And so our advice is always to talk to the girls. There's interesting research that talks about just some of the subtle differences and of course this is generalizing.

00:23:27:23 - 00:23:55:20 Allison There's going to be people of all genders who identify across across these different modes. But for girls in a sport environment, you're going to get the best from them. When you create that social safety, you give them an opportunity to talk to one another, to build friendships, and rebuild that connection at the start of every practice. And then they will have what they need to go and put themselves out there and try hard

00:23:55:22 - 00:24:23:15 Allison and achieve. For boys, the, the research shows that they don't need that so much. In fact, they're going to get that social connection by showing up, trying hard and achieving. The social comes through that, whereas girls need it first. So if you imagine that you're a coach, who's ,traditionally, you know, coached boys and you're just used to them showing up, starting the practice, let's go get get on with it.

00:24:23:17 - 00:24:46:12 Allison You know, you're used to that being your your mode. And then you've got these girls who just won't stop talking and get down to the practice. I've had that, I've had a coach say I keep making the girls cry. I don't know why. I don't understand why it takes them 15 minutes to settle down and start doing things like, actually, there's great research and great insight that that informs that.

00:24:46:14 - 00:25:18:22 Allison So when girls say, I don't know, this just doesn't feel like it was totally made for me. It can reflect all of these different sorts of things. And what they want is for the people who are leading sport to learn more about them, to read the research, to do the training, to put in the effort, to really make sure that what they're building for the girls really has the girls at the centre of it, as opposed to taking a model and an approach that works for boys and kind of plunking it on to girls and hoping that it works.

00:25:19:00 - 00:25:32:22 Alison Those are super helpful examples. Thank you very much. Now I want to switch gears to more professional sports and ask for your input on, what do you think led to the overdue rising spotlight on professional women in sport?

00:25:33:00 - 00:26:04:10 Allison I would say that there are, two things that, that I see. One is professional women's sport has been growing in other countries that Canada tends to look to around the world for a while now. And so there have been some good things happening there, and some proof of concept and some real successes. Whether we look south to the U.S. or across Europe, even in Australia, frankly, Canada was a little behind.

00:26:04:12 - 00:26:33:07 Allison So we had the opportunity to see others who are going ahead of us and saying like, oh, what's happening over there? Maybe there's some potential for, through the business lens. And then we had our soccer team and our hockey teams coming off of back to back gold medals at the Olympics and being relatively vocal about the fact that there's no development pathway, including that professional, that opportunity to play here in Canada with their teammates year in, year out.

00:26:33:07 - 00:26:58:17 Allison They're scattered to the four winds, you know, in between these Olympic cycles, and that's putting Canada at a real disadvantage. So yes, we are performing and winning at the top of our game. But you know, we don't actually have what we need in our own country to consistently deliver that. People were ready to hear it in a way that I don't think they were ready to hear it before.

00:26:58:17 - 00:27:39:00 Allison And it wasn't long before we just really heard these, these sort of rumours that conversations were happening in boardrooms and, and, you know, the proverbial behind closed doors about, hey, what what could this look like in Canada? You know, what could our role be in that? Is there a real opportunity here? Of course. Then you had folks like Diana Matheson and Jayna Hefford and others who are working so diligently, also, you know, quite quietly for a while to start up the teams and leagues that investors could get behind, and really push forward. Long overdue in Canada,

00:27:39:00 - 00:27:55:09 Allison But, as our first work with BCG and Canadian Tire showed in the business case, a real business opportunity here in Canada. And I think people are really starting to figure that out.

00:27:55:11 - 00:28:10:13 Alison Now, we we talked earlier about there are core differences for girls and women in non-professional sport. So I'd love to hear you talk a bit about how and why is the reality different for professional women versus professional male athletes?

00:28:10:18 - 00:28:39:16 Allison I would say at an athlete level, there's been some great work done on this, by groups like RBC and Wasserman really looking at pay equity as a consideration and what that means for the athletes. If they can't, you know, get that from just showing up and doing their job they have to book as many sponsorships as they can in order to, to really make that livelihood make sense.

00:28:39:18 - 00:29:18:00 Allison So there is also just such an awareness, that we see really around the world, that women's professional sports in many respects is still a start up and those athletes are essential partners in the success of those business enterprises. And so they are showing up with so much intention and so invested in the success of, of these teams and leagues, and they know how to work with brands to make that happen.

00:29:18:00 - 00:29:48:05 Allison They know that brands are essential. They know that sponsorship is essential for them as individuals and for the success of their team's leagues. And so they are engaged. They are active on social media. They are putting in the work, they are meeting the fans, they are doing. They are doing all the things that they can do to, you know, be personally or individually successful and collectively successful in this professional space.

00:29:48:07 - 00:30:23:23 Allison And I wouldn't say that male athletes don't do this or don't need to do this, but certainly there are different dynamics at play. And the consistent message that we hear is that, yeah, the women, the women athletes show up, they're available, they're accessible. And what's really exciting is that the fans value them so much. When we did our fan study with, again, IMI and and you know, Canadian Tire, they're backing us and so many others in the space.

00:30:24:01 - 00:30:53:07 Allison Fans said they are so interested in these athletes. They see them as role models. They're interested in their lives. They want to know more about them. And they see them as equally as athletic, equally as strong and inspiring as male athletes. But they also see that women's sport is growing. It's a place of shared values, you know, things that I think brands really want to be part of.

00:30:53:09 - 00:31:07:01 Alison And you highlighted there's a very powerful business case as well. So building on that, the rebalancing between sponsorship and investing in women's sport is finally starting. How do you envision that will change the sporting world and the broader world?

00:31:07:03 - 00:31:36:00 Allison The rebalancing is, is a good way to put it, because of course, in the absence of much women's professional sport in Canada, other than, some great tournaments or events, but not having teams and leagues playing consistently month in, month out, year in, year out in this market and in markets all across Canada. You know, there just there hasn't been a lot of places for brands to play.

00:31:36:02 - 00:32:17:04 Allison And so, and and again, you know, when your top athletes, show up at the Olympics but are otherwise often overseas playing in other markets, also a bit limiting. But truly there has also been a choice not to invest in women's sports and in women athletes to the same degree that that brands have invested in men. I think that's been fueled by a lot of myths about the value that these athletes, and that these teams and leagues can return to, to marketers and, and the objectives that they hold and that they're responsible for, you know, those are real.

00:32:17:04 - 00:32:55:13 Allison There's a lot of pressure on that. The least risky thing to do is to invest in something that's been around for decades, that has all of this, you know, this proven return. But you're going to pay a lot more for that. And so there's an opportunity right now and, and, you know, we're seeing again, in other markets that are a little ahead of us, but we're seeing right now the business case, because it is a business decision, of investing in women's professional sport is there. It's going to require though different things from marketers than, it may require to invest in some of those traditional properties.

00:32:55:15 - 00:33:27:11 Allison It's gonna require a little more patience. It's going to require, probably a bit more, leaning in, in partnership, collaborating to really build something creative, as opposed to capitalizing on something that's existed for a long time. But as I say, you're going to get in at a lower price point and you're going to get to shape it into what it could be, and you're going to find fans who come with so much passion.

00:33:27:11 - 00:33:52:03 Allison If anybody's been to a PWHL game, there's no doubt, like they're just cheering for both teams, they're just cheering for everything, right? Like they're just, they're there because it matters to them. They're there because they care about women, about women's sports. They're there because the product is fantastic and they want to be part of it. You know, they're there because they want to take their children to these sorts of things.

00:33:52:05 - 00:34:22:20 Allison So the the great rebalancing has begun. And what it represents is, not just more dollars flowing into women's sports, and creating a pathway and role models for, for girls to follow. But it's going to create value and respect for women's sport as well, when brands are investing in it and also celebrating it, it's going to shift the culture.

00:34:22:21 - 00:35:03:06 Allison In other words, it's going to create, more encouragement and support and girls still need that. They still need to be told that this is important for them, too, because frankly, they get a lot of messages to the contrary. So I'm really encouraged by what I've seen so far. I'm excited about where this can go, and I am absolutely, adamant about the powerful role that brands are going to play in this, but it means bringing, coming with the right intention too and doing it in the right way.

00:35:03:07 - 00:35:27:05 Alison But will also enable girls to dream bigger. They can see a future for themselves that didn't exist even two short years ago. The other thing I love about it is professional women's sports and teams open up sponsorship, sporting sponsorship opportunities for non-traditional brands and businesses that wouldn't have had the opportunity thereregardless. So there is the great potential there too.

00:35:27:05 - 00:35:55:00 Allison Definitely. And I think that speaks to, again, what women's sport represents. And women, it is not just women who are fans of women's sports. Our research shows it's actually majority men. So like, fans of women's sports are fans of sport. You're going to find all genders there. But certainly to traditionally maybe, brands that are more associated with, women as an audience, women as a consumer,

00:35:55:02 - 00:35:59:13 Allison they're absolutely going to feel an affinity for women's professional sport.

00:35:59:15 - 00:36:06:17 Alison Absolutely. So how can the marketers that have tuned in today help accelerate this really important rebalancing that's already started?

00:36:06:19 - 00:36:30:13 Allison Okay. So in some really great ways. One is if you're not already looking at women's professional sport, and I would just say women's sport generally because there are opportunities to play at many different points in the pathway. And so if professional isn't quite the right fit for you and your objectives and your brand, there's lots there are lots of places to play in the women's sport landscape.

00:36:30:15 - 00:36:49:23 Allison But if you have if you're not looking at it, start looking at it because the opportunity is there. There's some first mover advantage in many respects. And, an opportunity, as I said, to both shape it but also capitalize on it as it grows. Because it is growing. We did a fan study with research, from a year ago.

00:36:49:23 - 00:37:14:01 Allison If we took it again now, it look totally different. So, and in doing so, I think it, it requires us to challenge some of the assumptions that we've long held about women's sport. Well, nobody will watch that. Well, nobody's actually going to buy the merch. Well, you know, we we can put a lot of stories out there, but I would argue if they were ever true, they're certainly not true anymore.

00:37:14:03 - 00:37:47:00 Allison And so that may also involve convincing the people inside your organization. We know that metrics are so important for marketers. The data, data is what you're, what helps you make the best decisions that you can make. It's going to look different in the women's side than it has in the men's side. And so a willingness to look at return on objectives to really understand what type of consumer you're looking for, how women's sport can actually deliver that differently than men's sport, but in a complementary way,

00:37:47:02 - 00:38:07:15 Allison if you're already invested in this space. All of these sorts of things are really going to help, certainly move the needle for women's sport to have more brands showing up in this space. But I would expect that it would also return a ton of value to the bottom line of the companies investing in them.

00:38:07:17 - 00:38:32:03 Alison Now, I know you mentioned Canadian Tire and they're a great example of an early adopter and really investing in significant ways, they made a commitment to take 50% of their dollars and invest it in supporting girls and women in sport. I'd love you to share some other examples who are really embracing that first mover advantage and the opportunity.

00:38:32:05 - 00:38:56:08 Allison We're seeing, like if I think about the Northern Super League, for instance, I referenced Diana Matheson. So we've got this start up domestic women's professional soccer league in Canada. Six markets across Canada, have I got that right, 6 or 8? It might be eight, and untested. Right. You know, this is, this is new. This is we've seen a new one start up on the men's side.

00:38:56:08 - 00:39:28:14 Allison But again, women's sport is going to play differently. So of course Canadian Tire was in there, but so is Air Canada. And so is Scotiabank. And these are companies that have an investment in sport, that obviously care deeply about Canadian communities and see the opportunity to signal their interest and their values, aligned with what Canadians value. Canadians love women's sport.

00:39:28:16 - 00:39:48:20 Allison 23.5 million Canadians say they're fans of women's sport. There's a huge market there for brands that are willing to step into a space that maybe feels a little unknown, a little untested. But to show up and to say, how can we help be part of building this?

00:39:48:22 - 00:40:02:22 Alison And on the non-traditional side, I know Sephora recently made a fairly big announcement as well. So it's a great example of a non-traditional sports sponsorship brand seizing an opportunity, and really help benefit their business as a result of it.

00:40:03:00 - 00:40:27:06 Allison Absolutely. You know, there's been a lot of talk, of course, with the first PWHL season about Barbie, which was, you know, maybe not someone that was like, as they say, not on the bingo card. I also just saw, you know, Bravado is, a new sponsor of women's professional sports here. And, you know, they make women's bras and they're not necessarily associated with with sport either.

00:40:27:07 - 00:40:59:23 Allison And so there's, it's kind of opening the tent if you will, and creating opportunities for brands that haven't traditionally thought of sports as a place for them to play. But when you consider again, it's it's not just sport and it's not just your traditional audience of sport, but again, represents so much more, it opens up new ways to connect these brands together, and to reach perhaps new audiences.

00:41:00:01 - 00:41:24:07 Alison So, Allison, you have such an enviable career. And as a female CEO, you're also still too much of a rarity. So I know that we've got a lot of listeners who would love to benefit from your knowledge base. So before I let you go, I know you've got a busy schedule, but before I let you go, I'd love to close off our discussion by having you share the top piece of advice that you'd give to our audience who aspire to follow in your footsteps, especially those with CEO ambitions.

00:41:25:15 - 00:41:53:06 Allison I appreciate the question. It's always fun to reflect on what sorts of things made a difference for you, and a reminder to keep leaning in on those. And I would say that for me, relationships have just been such a difference maker. It is, as I as I made the move from being, a director, so a leader in a nonprofit into the top role of CEO,

00:41:54:01 - 00:42:15:10 Allison and frankly, involved a lot of learning for me. It was a real growth moment. What I really relied on was those relationships, the relationships I already had, people I knew I could count on, who would give me good advice, who I could be vulnerable with when I was feeling really unsure of myself. Who could round out my skill set?

00:42:15:10 - 00:42:39:12 Allison Because as a CEO, you're going to be really good at some things and less good at other things. And so having people in your circle that you can count on, to help, to help you navigate some of that can be really valuable. But it was also building new relationships, being curious about people, you know, showing interest in them, learning about what's important to them.

00:42:39:12 - 00:43:07:04 Allison My job is influencing other people. And so I need to know what's important to them and what they care about. And then those translated into into this big network of people again, who then became more of those people that I could call when I need a hand or ask questions to get perspective from, just look beyond my own world view and see the world, or the problem that I was trying to tackle in a new light.

00:43:07:04 - 00:43:16:17 Allison Relationships have served me very well and I would encourage anyone with CEO ambitions to invest in them.

00:43:16:19 - 00:43:37:22 Alison That is absolutely outstanding advice and it's also advice that, regardless of how junior you are or how early you are in your career, that's advice that everyone of our listeners can and should start actioning today. So I really appreciate you sharing it and I really have enjoyed our conversation. I knew the time would fly by and I've thoroughly loved having you on our podcast today.

00:43:37:22 - 00:43:39:16 Alison So Allison, thank you very much.

00:43:39:18 - 00:43:46:10 Allison Well, thank you for asking such wonderful questions and allowing me to talk about something I'm clearly very passionate about.

00:43:46:12 - 00:43:54:08 Alison Well, I share your passion. So here's to keeping the great positive momentum, accelerating it in the months and years ahead.

00:43:54:10 - 00:44:01:09 Allison Thanks so much, Alison.

00:44:01:11 - 00:44:14:00 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.