CMA Connect

Are you upskilling fast enough to stay ahead of AI and tech disruption? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mark Beckles, CEO of Palette Skills, who's leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. With 71% of workers wanting to upgrade their skills regularly, Mark reveals how the Palette Skills program upskills people in weeks - not months. From generating $200 million in economic output to reshaping careers, learn why Mark believes the future of work belongs to those who pursue 'latticed' careers instead of climbing traditional ladders.

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:23] Alison: The future of work is here as artificial intelligence and tech disruption reshape entire industries at breakneck speed. The question isn't whether Canadian workers need to upskill, but whether we can do it fast enough to stay ahead of the change and keep our country thriving. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Mark Beckles, Chief Executive Officer at Palette Skills.

[00:00:45] Alison: Mark joined Palette Skills in July and shares our passion for upskilling Canadians to ensure that they can innovate and compete both here at home as well as globally. Mark brings more than 25 years of senior leadership experience in financial services and the nonprofit sector known for driving large transformational initiatives and delivering true business value.

[00:01:05] Alison: At RBC, Mark led the Future Launch initiative that equipped 5.5 million young Canadians for the future of work. He also spearheaded RBC Upskill, a national tool that helps individuals align their skills with emerging careers. Previously, Mark served as President and CEO of the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for Canada.

[00:01:24] Alison: At Palette Skills, Mark and his team are leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. His work is particularly timely as tech disruption, especially AI, are continuing to reshape entire industries and redefine what skills will be most valuable in the future. What makes Mark's perspective particularly valuable is just front row seat to workforce transformation through pallet skills programs.

[00:01:47] Alison: He can see not just what skills employers are seeking, but why they're upskilling their employees, which really provides some great early insights into how tech is driving change across Canada's economy in every province. With ongoing discussions about Canada's productivity gap, Mark's insights into upskilling and innovation couldn't be more relevant or timelier.

[00:02:07] Alison: Welcome, Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you join me on CMA Connect today.

[00:02:11] Mark: Thank you for having me on, Alison, such a pleasure to be here with you today.

Alison: Now I want to kick things off by hearing more about your career journey. In particular, I'd love to know what drew you to focus on social responsibility throughout your career, and what made the transition to Palette Skills such a natural fit for you?

[00:02:28] Mark: Well, thanks for the question, Alison. I, I would start by saying that I spent most of my time, most of my career in corporate, but there was one intersectional moment in the early 2000s where I made a conscious decision to step away and to invest my skills in the nonprofit sector. And for context, I, you know, developed these skills around risk management when I was, uh, working in the insurance sector and discovered that these skills were easily transferable to the nonprofit sector where I worked in relief development at first and then had the awesome opportunity to, uh, then work for the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for a number of of years.

[00:03:12] Mark: And, uh, as a result of that, I became acutely aware of this notion that profit and purpose can coexist in the same ecosystem, and that I could more effectively translate the language of the nonprofit sector to the corporate sector and the language of the corporate sector to the nonprofit sector, because of course, one's from Mars and the other from Venus.

[00:03:33] Mark: But in having this sort of cross sector experience or these cross-sector experiences, it really has enriched my life and really helped me understand the ways in which I can help create value for society by bringing these really strong corporate skills to the nonprofit sector and taking a real deep understanding of the issues and challenges, uh, facing the nonprofit sector rather, and what they're trying to solve, and making sure that the corporate sector and governments and other stakeholders understand.

[00:04:03] Mark: And so in the context of Palette Skills, I just absolutely enjoy the work that we're doing because we're actually helping to ensure that we can sort of fuel Canada's economic prosperity.

Alison: It's such a great personal example because when you think about working in a big bank, working in risk in the insurance sector, and then moving to nonprofit, a lot of our listeners, a lot of people would think, how is that possible?

[00:04:26] Alison: You're gonna be starting from scratch and not really appreciate how transferable those skills are. In my career, I've had similar opportunities where I've worked in very, very different industries, yet some of the challenges are the same, and the skills are a lot more transferable than many people assume.

[00:04:42] Mark: So I like that you have that personal perspective as you're going into head one of Canada's largest upskilling programs as well.

Mark: Absolutely. I, I think to a large degree, most employees, most Canadians, don't understand or appreciate the extent to which their skills are actually transferrable across careers and across sectors.

[00:05:01] Mark: And that's one of the great joys of the work that we do, that I did at RBC, and now that we do it at Upscale Canada, to help workers to help employees understand the transferability of skills of workers.

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah, diversity of experience, diversity of thought makes us all better at what we do, so it's a great, great confirmation.

[00:05:19] Alison: I mentioned in my opening that we are absolutely seeing unprecedented tech disruption, particularly with AI. So you clearly have a front row seat to workforce transformation, and I'd love to hear what early trends are you seeing in terms of how and why employers are upskilling their employees.

[00:05:37] Mark: It's a great question Alison. Uh, a couple of things I would offer, first of which is upskilled workers get the most up to date skills and are ready to hit the ground running in four months or less. And these are employees who have an immediate impact. And the second is that workforce development is critical and cannot start when people are in the workforce.

[00:05:57] Mark: Uh, and such that we need to be thinking about upskilling as a tool of lifelong learning. And these programs can adapt at speed and they can innovate and modernize, making them essential for job seekers and for businesses who are looking to adapt. So the constant change that we are seeing in sectors like yours, like marketing for example, education and training can no longer be once and done.

[00:06:22] Mark: And for those of us who've had careers over time know that we have actually had to undergo, uh, upskilling or reskilling, whether formal or informal ways. So, so that, you know, to Upskill Canada, we maximize our impact when we work with multiple stakeholders, corporate partnerships and funders and employers and delivery partners.

[00:06:42] Mark: It's not just about employers who are looking to hire for these up-to-date skills. We also serve employers who want to up, uh, upskill their employees as well. I think of RBC funding at the level of $500,000 for a program that supports small and medium sized enterprises and responsible adoption of AI technology, and that will be launched in 2026.

[00:07:07] Mark: And that's an example of how when working with corporate partners, we can accelerate the impact that we're trying to have. But of course, business leaders and employees and job seekers will be upskilled in weeks, not months as a result of that investment. The other thing that we know is that 71% of workers

[00:07:25] Mark: absolutely want to update their skills more often. And 80% believe that employers should invest, uh, more in providing upskilling and reskilling. So upskilling helps with employee retention and uh, and employee satisfaction. And I would say that we can even work with employers to develop the programming

[00:07:44] Mark: they need to make sure that their employees have the right skills to do their jobs more efficiently and more effectively. So when we talk about upskilling employees, it's an ongoing opportunity, an ongoing process. And you know, any sector that wants to be successful is gonna have to turn attention to ensuring that they're billing that robust human capital to ensure that they're competitive.

[00:08:09] Alison: It's such a compelling stat that so many Canadian workers want to update their skills, and you make a great point that that's a surefire way to improve employee retention and employee satisfaction. What do you think holds employers back from doing more upskilling?

Mark: I think one of the issues and challenges that holds employers back is

[00:08:28] Mark: oftentimes, particularly in small businesses, they don't know what they need in terms of, you know, where they need to upskill their employees. Oftentimes, small organizations don't have, uh, the capital, the, the, the resources to be able to upskill and reskill, uh, in real time. Oftentimes, they're unaware of the, the challenges that they are facing.

[00:08:49] Mark: Yet you have employees who often can see before their employers do the kinds of skills that, that they, the employees will need to thrive and to prosper and to help their, uh, employers thrive and prosper. So that, I think there, there needs to be greater attention and awareness on the part of businesses to understand, you know, the skills needs of their employees and what those employers will need to focus on

[00:09:13] Mark: to ensure that they can sustain their businesses, that they can continue to compete, particularly in a world that is rapidly changing, where the challenges of tomorrow are gonna be very different from the challenges of yesterday, and that the fight for survival and, and the war for talent is going to be real, and that employers are gonna have to spend more attention, understanding where they need to compete.

[00:09:37] Alison: Small and medium enterprises really drive Canada's economy, so to ensure they have the upskilled talent they need to continue thriving both here and globally is mission critical. And then when I think about the role Upskill Canada and Palette are playing, like that's an amazing resource for SMEs to be able to leverage in order to help upskill their teams and their talent so they can compete.

[00:10:01] Alison: Now I'd love to talk specifically, clearly my bias, specifically more about marketing and creative professionals. So how do you think marketers need to approach upskilling differently given the rapid pace of tech change, especially around AI?

Mark: That's a great question, because you know at first sight one might conclude that your space is ripe for disruption, and to some degree it is.

[00:10:24] Mark: But this is where upskilling model allows for these sorts of pivots where upskilling can rapidly evolve and train people efficiently in response to the issues and challenges and opportunities that you're seeing in your space. So the programs like Digital Marketing Skills Canada are pivoting to make sure that marketers get the right skills for a long career.

[00:10:46] Mark: And Alison, I know that the CMA has made a few pivots, even adapting to serving new sectors, and your programs have been updated. Perhaps you might wanna share with me what CMA has done about the success of the DMSC.

Alison: Mark, thanks for turning the table on me in my typical role of host. I'm more than happy to answer that question.

[00:11:05] Alison: So, as you mentioned, the CMA leads the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, and we deliver training programs in partnership with Growclass and Jelly Academy. So we have courses that provide crucial digital marketing and business skills for marketers at every stage, including people that are brand new and want to change industries, want to get into marketing to quite senior.

[00:11:24] Alison: And the CMA and our partners also provide mission critical AI training, and that's been one of the important pivots we've made. As AI continues to evolve, we're constantly updating and refreshing our programming to make sure that our graduates are well positioned to really leverage these skills to grow businesses and brands.

[00:11:42] Alison: And then I'll, I'll brag a little bit. So since we launched the DMSC program in 2024, we've now upskilled 1900 marketing professionals from every province across the country, and we have a couple in the Yukon as well, and after upgrading their marketing skills, our graduates have gone on to support over seven hundred

[00:12:00] Alison: small and medium enterprises and really help those businesses grow their businesses, grow their sales, and really contribute job placement. So once they graduate, we have a track record of placing 75% of our graduates into a new role. And then we've also done a very good job of

[00:12:22] Alison: really supporting underrepresented groups. It was part of our original submission to DMSC and a really important priority for the CMA and our partners. So we have over 70% of our graduates and learners are from underrepresented groups, and that's just a sign of our deep commitment to EDI and, and a positive impact that we're having to make sure that the marketing profession is as equitable and diverse as the country that we represent.

[00:12:48] Mark: That is absolutely fantastic. Those are, those are stats that, uh, the CMA should be proud of. And when you think of this Pan-Canadian approach that you have, you know, delivering a program that is digital first, that is inclusive, uh, that allows for participation right across the country, that strengthens your sector, that creates, uh, career opportunities,

[00:13:13] Mark: that is inclusive. Those are all the things that make these programs successful, and I, I truly think that CMA should be really proud of those outcomes. And we are just so thrilled to be partnering with you on this.

Alison: We hope together we're just getting started. We see a very bright future for sure, and there's certainly a significant need.

[00:13:30] Alison: We've got wait lists in the hundreds, so the more successful we are, the more we're seeing people raise their hand to want to be a part of it. Now from when Upskills Canada's initiative was first formed to today, what are the major changes that you've seen in upskilling needs across Canada?

Mark: Well, the first thing I would say is because the program and the upskilling model is, is employer-led, it means that we are able to adjust programs and and to sort of meet

[00:13:57] Mark: the demands of employers as the, as the market shifts. And then of course, given the economic changes we are seeing, those changes require us to be increasingly more, uh, responsive to changes at the sector level. And of course, given that there is a growing number of workers in tariff hit industries that will need support, we will have to continue to be increasingly more adaptive and responsive to, to the needs of employers and to the needs of employees. Upskill Canada programs then are designed exactly to be adaptive

[00:14:38] Mark: and to allow for pivots along with, uh, the job market. And, and when we talk about rapid upskilling, it's because it's not going to take a worker two or four years to get the critical skills that they need. It's going to take a matter of, uh, of weeks. And that is again, the beauty of the Upskill Canada program.

[00:15:00] Mark: The flexibility, the adaptability of it, the ability to change and respond to what's happening in markets and, and sectors in, in real time. And when I think of where we need to go as a country, our ability to flex and, and pivot, given some of the geopolitical challenges that we are being confronted with, will require us to do that at pace and at scale.

[00:15:25] Alison: The DMSC programs is a great example of a few of the things that you've talked about. We, to your point, it, our programs are six or seven weeks. Now I will say they are an intense six or seven weeks, but our graduates come out of that with the skills they need to really do modern marketing and thrive. And then the pivoting based on where tariffs are coming and going,

[00:15:44] Mark: the Canadian industries that need greater support. Advanced manufacturing is a great example of that where, when Palette and the Government came and said, we need more support in agritech and advanced manufacturing, we were very quickly able to pivot our programs and customize those for those industries in need and deliver in a matter of weeks instead of months.

[00:16:04] Alison: So it's a really powerful element of what you're doing at Palette Skills through the Upskill Canada program as well. And when we look at the broader picture, knowing that Canada does have a productivity gap and that fueling innovation is so mission critical to our growth, why is workforce development in your perspective so critical to both productivity as well as our country's ability to innovate?

[00:16:28] Mark: That was a great question and, and I, I would answer that question in the context of the bold ambition that, that, that Prime Minister Carney has, uh, articulated and has continued to articulate for the last number of months. To which I would say that Canada will not be able to meet even the ambitious goals that he has set without a national skill strategy, which must include upskilling.

[00:16:53] Mark: I am deeply happy to see his announcements, for example, on national projects and so on. But those projects won't happen without people and the supply chains into those projects won't happen without people. Whether those supply chains are, are, are digital, whether they are focused on marketing, whether they're focused on communications, whether they're focused on infrastructure, regardless, won't happen without people.

[00:17:21] Mark: So when I talk about a national skill strategy to include upskilling, it is to ensure that in the delivery of any and all of those projects, there needs to be a focus on people. Because Canada is grappling with an unprecedented shift in the economic fundamentals that have, uh, allowed for our prosperity to this point.

[00:17:41] Mark: But if we don't invest in workforce development, we risk leaving billions of productivity and innovation untapped with talent sidelined instead of contributing to the industries that need them the most. I think we recognize that there's a growing reality that right skilled workers will be the key to our prosperity and resilience.

[00:18:04] Mark: So whether it is a large scale workforce development that requires a national collaborative model that aligns training with industry, and that needs to be connected to talent and connecting talent to opportunity quickly to ensure that that happens, that's where we need to focus our attention. But ultimately, Canada's prosperity

[00:18:23] Mark: depends on ensuring that we are providing people, equipping people with the right skills at the right time so that we can seize the opportunities in the industries that drive our future.

Alison: Building on what you said earlier as well, agility. We need to be able to turn around so quickly, and that's one of the proven, I would say, superpowers of what you're doing at Palette, what we're doing with DMSC, the fact that we can do that in a matter of weeks and really enable our

[00:18:54] Alison: Canadians across the country to be more agile and to deliver on the business needs of today, that's really important.

Mark: It's a great point, and I think we need to take that, uh, we need to take that approach more aggressively across many different industry sets. I think we spend a lot of time thinking about larger scale concepts and learning opportunities, which,

[00:19:19] Mark: because they're not rapid in nature, actually slow the progress that we are trying to make. And you know, if we, if we can think about pivoting, if we can think about building resilience, if we can think about, uh, adapting more quickly, Canada will be the better for it. No question.

Alison: Absolutely. We share that passion for sure.

[00:19:37] Alison: Now you mentioned that upskilling can no longer be a once and done effort, and it's due to a lot of things, in particular technological change. And when I think about what we're teaching our learners, we're equipping them with the skills they need today, probably even more importantly, we're teaching them how to learn. Because we are only at the beginning of Ai.

[00:19:56] Alison: It is evolving every hour, let alone every week, let alone every month. So the ability to learn how to learn and to know that that's the new life skill you need to thrive is an important part of what we're doing. So how do we ensure that workers stay ahead of the pace of change? And what does lifelong learning look like in practice?

[00:20:16] Mark: Yeah, and, and that's a question that, you know, creates other questions for who see themselves potentially at risk of being disintermediated by technology. And I think part of it is acknowledging that technology is changing more quickly than it ever has in previous industrial revolutions. What I would describe as this fourth industrial revolution, which is about technological change.

[00:20:44] Mark: Digital technology is different in the sense that machines now control machines and there's in some cases very little need for human intervention. So that the opportunity is to think about those roles and opportunities that are not at risk of immediate disintermediation, and so looking to the future to understand, you know, what those opportunities look like and to stay ahead, engaging in a process of lifelong learning that ensures that we are ready for those jobs as they emerge.

[00:21:18] Mark: The one thing we know about previous industrial revolutions is that while jobs change, incrementally more jobs emerge. The level of technological change that we're seeing today means that jobs are going to change incrementally more quickly than they ever have in the past. The question is whether jobs will emerge as quickly as they have in previous, uh, industrial revolutions.

[00:21:43] Mark: And so that's why we are gonna have to be thinking about what those jobs look like, where are they by sector, and how do we ensure that we are rapidly upskilling Canadian workers so that they can, they can, they can do meaningful work and contribute to their employers and, and, and to their countries.

[00:22:00] Mark: And so taking, talking to Upskill Canada alumni, not only have they been telling us that they're happy that they have gone through these programs, they're also excited about, uh, future learning opportunities and that in itself is a valuable skill. The idea that one wants to continue learning, so that one has up to date and relevant skills to pivot and adapt as, uh, the economy needs us to.

[00:22:25] Alison: So Mark, what kind of impact do you envision Pallete Skills upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy, especially given the speed at which the landscape is changing today?

Mark: So we, so we are just, uh, undertaking our new mission and vision for year 2030, where we are committing to a better, skilled, more adaptable and equitable workforce that fuels a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:22:53] Mark: And what that enables and is driven by, is firstly incubating workforce solutions and products that allow for the Canadian workforce and employers and employees to really think about how they can help fuel the thriving Canadian economy. The second is increasing access to upskill talent, which is core to the program that we deliver right now.

[00:23:18] Mark: And then thirdly, adapting to the future of work. And by that I mean really anticipating where the future of work is going, where skills are gonna be required to ensure that we are right skilling and, and, and upskilling the right talent at the right time for the right sectors, for the right roles, to ensure that as the future of work changes, we are ready to be able to work with employers to ensure that their, uh, their talent is upskilled.

[00:23:44] Mark: And when I think about the, the impacts of, uh, tariffs and other geopolitical issues, this whole notion of anticipating future work comes into really sharp focus. But we're also looking at the full continuum of a worker's professional life and what might be needed to ensure that we address Canada's talent gap.

[00:24:03] Mark: For example, everyone's talking about the challenges faced by youth as they enter the professional space, but no one is speaking in terms of the opportunity that this yet untapped talent provides, and so if we can think about young people, not as a group of, uh, of, of individuals floating away on an ice drift somewhere, but as part of a sort of integrated workforce talent strategy that allows them to move from school to work into sectors that are in demand, into jobs that are in demand, we can actually build a sustainable workforce that helps, as I said before, fuel a thriving Canadian economy.

[00:24:39] Alison: I can't imagine a more needed and relevant vision. So I'm looking forward to seeing what you're accomplishing in the years ahead. I also wanna look back a little bit because Palette Skills has been around for a number of years. You've got an amazing mandate from the government and you've accomplished a tremendous amount.

[00:24:55] Alison: So I'd love you to share with our listeners some of the, uh, success metrics from the overall program.

Mark: So, uh, at Palette Skills, you know, over the last three years with the Upskill Canada program, we have been able to upskill close to 11,000 workers. We are on track to upskill about 18,000 by the end of our mandate, uh, March 31st of, of next year.

[00:25:20] Mark: You know, 75% of the participants of our program report is being new to Canada by five years, which means that quite a number of employers are onboarding and integrating new Canadians into into the workforce, and that I think is driving a lot of our success. Quite a number of participants of our programs, you know, coast to coast coast report, receiving a significant, uh, increase in pay or salary once they go through these, uh, these rapid upskilling programs and report their satisfaction with the experience.

[00:25:55] Mark: But more fundamentally, what we also know is that based on the numbers of individuals that have been upskilled and based on the increased economic and productivity output that they have driven, in aggregate, we are able to have generated through the Upskill program an additional, uh, $200 million in economic output.

[00:26:16] Mark: And so we know that the program works. We know the model works, and we are looking forward to being able to extend this program and increase, uh, the numbers of employees that are upskilled and integrated into new jobs and new sectors as our economic fundamentals change. I can't think of a program that is more relevant and more important to the success of the Canadian economy than the work that we and other, uh, organizations like yours and the broader workforce ecosystem are doing to ensure that, uh, workers are adequately upskilled and supported.

[00:26:50] Alison: That is incredible success and we talked about what do we need to do to fill the productivity gap and ensure that Canada can continue to innovate. And for the last three years you've been doing it. So huge shout out to you and your team for delivering outstanding results for sure. Now I'm very lucky to host talented leaders on CMA Connect.

[00:27:06] Alison: So I always end each episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice. So we absolutely have listeners who are tuning in today that aspire to be a CEO one day. So, Mark, given your impressive career, you've been in financial services, social responsibility, workforce development, what advice would you give to those listeners who would like to be a CEO one day?

[00:27:29] Mark: Um, well, speaking, speaking about my experiences, the one thing that I've come to appreciate is that, you know, career success is not linear, and that one has to be willing to take risks and the, the real opportunities and learning and the experiences actually come through the willingness or one's willingness to take chances.

[00:27:53] Mark: And to take chances outside the sectors that you feel that you are qualified for or some young people will say, you know, to, to use the degree that I sort of qualified in, so to speak. I've learned, and, and my own experience has been that my career has been latticed. It has not been laddered. But every time I've stepped across to another career or another experience,

[00:28:17] Mark: at some point in time, I've been able to make an upward move, and so the more, the more willing one is to take risks to recognize that careers don't have to be linear, and that the growth really comes from taking sort of latticed approaches to one's career, one can find meaningful experiences, growth opportunities, and really have impact

[00:28:40] Mark: in ways that one might not have if one stays in one vertical, and hopes against hope to move up the ladder to the role of CEO.

Alison: I absolutely love that advice when I think about the latticed approach. Every time you make a sideways or lateral move, you're learning new skills. Every time you work in a different industry, you're learning new skills, and that ultimately opens up a lot more pathways and a lot more opportunities to step up as well.

[00:29:04] Alison: So absolutely love the advice.

Mark: Absolutely.

Alison: So Mark, I know you're incredibly busy. Thank you so much for being generous with your time. It's been a great conversation. And I also want to personally thank you for the amazing partnership with you and your team. We are making such an important impact in the marketing profession in Canada, and you're making it on the broader Canadian professions as well, and really helping ensure that Canada can be incredibly productive, incredibly innovative, and really grow our GDP.

[00:29:33] Alison: So from my heart, thank you very much for an amazing partnership.

Mark: Thank you Alison. Thank you for having me on. And again, it's a partnership that we value and we're committed to working with you over the longer term, so keep doing what you guys are doing.

[00:29:51] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit thecma.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Can Canadian innovation change the world? In today's episode, Alison Simpson interviews Mark Mandato, Senior Manager of Key Growth Initiatives at CBC, and Chris Sewell, CEO & Founder of Net Zero Media. With advertising emissions approaching 4% of global emissions—rivalling the entire aviation industry—and 74% of Canadians factoring sustainability into their purchasing decisions, this partnership is pioneering breakthrough measurement technology. Discover how CBC and Net Zero Media are giving marketers the precise data they need to track their campaigns' carbon impact and make informed decisions that benefit both their bottom line and the planet.

Presenter 0:01 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's Marketing Podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson,

Alison 0:25 The advertising industry accounts for as much as 2% of global carbon emissions from digital alone, with total advertising approaching 4% of all global emissions. That actually rivals the entire aviation industry. But here's what is particularly relevant for us as Canadian marketers. 74% of Canadians consider sustainability important when making purchasing decisions, and two thirds say they're willing to pay above average prices for products that have a lower carbon footprint. Plus 70% of TSX 60 companies have already committed to net zero emissions by 2050. Canadian marketers are sitting at a pivotal moment and navigating both unprecedented consumer expectations as well as evolving compliance requirements. This can create both opportunity and urgency for our profession. While consumer demand accelerates and regulatory frameworks tighten, we're seeing genuine innovation emerge right here at home. Today, we're exploring how Canadian innovation is setting new global benchmarks for environmental responsibility in advertising. CBC is pioneering sustainable media practices that are best in class, not just in Canada but globally. With the breakthrough measurement technologies that are giving marketers the precise, actionable data that they need to track their campaign's carbon impact. Today, I'm joined by Mark Mandato, who is Senior Manager of Growth Initiatives for the CBC. At the CBC, he is leading initiatives to position Canada's national broadcaster as a sustainability leader in Media Solutions. Mark's background spans Rogers Communications and Media Propulsion Laboratory, and he brings a unique commercial perspective to CBC's groundbreaking environmental programs. I'm also joined by Chris Sewell, the Head of Research and Co-founder of Net Zero Media. Chris is the technical architect behind carbon measurement methodologies that are revolutionizing how we understand advertising's environmental impact. Since developing his world leading methodology for quantifying carbon emissions and media activities back in 2007, Chris has worked with leading global brands, proving that sustainability and marketing effectiveness are not mutually exclusive. So welcome Chris and Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you both with me today, and I'm looking forward to diving into this conversation that matters more than ever for Canadian marketers.

Mark 2:45 Thank you. Great to be here.

Chris 2:47 Good to be here.

Alison 3:14 So Mark,let's start with the fundamental question. Given everything else that's competing for marketers' attention right now, whether it's AI, tariffs, economic pressures, why should sustainability be a priority for marketing and media professionals?

Mark 3:02 Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question to start off with. I think, I think it's gone from being a nice to have in a marketer's, you know, repertoire of things they have to worry about, down to an essential business imperative. Right? So it affects your brand's reputation, it can affect the consumer behaviour and even financial performance. So you had briefly mentioned that as of today, I think there's 301 companies that have signed on for the, you know, the net carbon zero for 2050, and it's appearing in annual reports as something that they are reporting against on a go forward basis.

Mark 3:32 So at one point it was like, yes, it was a nice thing to do because it was a right thing to do for the planet, but now it has actual business impact that's related to the marketing department. So that's why sustainability has to come back onto the radar. It's not going away. It's not something that's going to get sort of better on its own. So having the ability to report on a granular level is becoming more and more important for marketers.

Alison 3:54 That's great to hear. It's obviously mission critical from a planet perspective, but to see the business impact, to see the customer demand and increase the expectation, and now to have an ability to actually track it, is everything coming together, you know, the way it's meant to. Chris, you've been measuring advertising's carbon impact for over a decade. So for companies that are already tracking campaign metrics, why is carbon measurement important, and why does it matter for their bottom line?

Chris 4:23 Actually, Alison, it's getting on for two decades, which I suppose shows both my commitment and my stubbornness in this area. Yeah, the importance of carbon measurement is often overlooked by the marketing team as they are busily focused on existing business objectives, which as we know today, are getting m ore and more challenging. The carbon emanating from the marketing budget is being measured and reported today. It's just being managed by other parts of the organization, so there's not necessarily a clear line of sight, and there's two reasons this has been done and how it affects the bottom line. As Mark was saying, 70% of TSX companies are actually have net zero targets, and therefore someone has to be measuring what's occurring today.

Chris 5:10 So there's two reasons why this is important. Obviously, to meet those targets, but also how it affects the bottom line. Firstly, these companies who are talking about targets, are legally compelled to understand and report future business prospects. So this is a business, it's got nothing to do with climate at the moment, but, climate change is there as a reality. Therefore they have to take this into account when they're saying what's going to happen in the future. So this requires analysis of the external risks that are going to occur in future years, and the current emissions from the area of the business that's occurring today, which includes the marketing spend.

Chris 5:50 So market emissions are being measured and reported using what's called, currently is a spend based method. This is where each dollar spent on marketing, regardless of what channel or the activity, is converted into a carbon equivalent based on the local market factor. So it's a simple thing. I spend $100, we convert it by that factor, that's how much carbon on the site, regardless of what's actually occurring. It's a flat number. Everything is actually counted the same. So while this covers any internal or external legal or voluntary portion requirements that these companies are using, it does nothing to help understand the carbon intensity areas of spend. As I said, every dollar is given the same carbon value, and that's just not true.

Chris 6:37 Different channels, different activities, actually have different carbon intensity, and that method will not work in the future. So if it's not understood, it can't be managed. So the only way to reduce emissions is to reduce the budget, which I'm sure no marketer would want to hear that, if we're going to reduce emissions, because we have this target, therefore we will spend less on marketing. So it's not a great position to be in where we currently sit. So while this first reasoned about future risk, it is often the current cost with a direct link to the bottom line. Companies with net zero targets in a number of jurisdictions are neutralizing emissions. This might be an internal policy or maybe legislated requirement. If these marketing emissions are unable to be understood with no pathway to reduction, this cost will only increase with time, as budgets increase, and the cost of compensation or offsets is rising steadily all the time, because more and more companies are looking for, let's call it an easy way out. So marketers are increasing long term liability cost beyond the simple line items of the budget. This will be addressed again by business decisions outside the marketing department, and it's a greater understanding and action is taken. And what CBC is doing is that first major step for an organization to help marketers and the corporate clients understand in detail and they will start reducing into the future.

Alison 8:07 Thanks, Chris, that's super helpful. So we have Canadian consumers who absolutely increasingly expect businesses and brands to be paying attention to sustainability and climate change. We have businesses that are stepping up as they should, to also protect climate change and the challenges that's being measured in that sounds like quite a simplistic way that ultimately could reduce marketers budget. So to have a more sophisticated way to measure it is in the best interest of marketers or budgets the business and ultimately, Canadian consumers as well. Mark, I know the CBC has a real commitment to responsible media and sustainability. I'd love you to walk us through your "Greening Our Story" strategy, and share how sustainable media initiative is fitting in the broader CBC commercial strategy.

Mark 8:58 Yeah, absolutely, the sustainability portion and the "Greening Our Story" lives under a larger umbrella that we call Responsible Media. So CBC, as a Crown Corporation, has set a stake in the ground to lead from the front, as we say, in terms of responsible media. And that includes everything from the "Greening Our Story", which is the sustainability piece, to our DEI initiatives, to indigenous initiatives, all the different things that make CBC the gem that it is. But from a sustainability standpoint, there isn't currently a Canadian standard that speaks to the Scope 3 emissions, which are the ones sort of downstream effect of advertising.

Mark 9:35 So because there's not a Canadian standard in place, as part of "Greening Our Story", we already were doing emission reporting and sustainability work on the production end of things. So when CBC produces a show or is involved in production, there's a set of guidelines that oversee carbon emissions for that. But after that fact, once the shows are produced and once advertising comes into the picture, there hasn't been that carbon calculator or that attention paid to what that carbon draw is. So that's really why we've decided to partner with Net Zero Media. We decided to approach it from a very academic standpoint.

Mark 10:08 And again, the term that kept coming up over and over again in our steer codes was it was important to lead from the front. It was important to get out in front of this, to educate the marketers, to educate the industry about the effects of carbon in terms of what is produced from advertising. And get to that granular nature where we're actually looking at every step of the way, from when an ad is sent to CBC to go to air, through transmission, through to it appearing on a screen somewhere, at each stage, there is a carbon cost. So the idea of the carbon calculator was, we were going to work with Net Zero Media. They were going to do the heavy lifting and the math. We were going to be able to input clients' campaigns, and basically, with the click of a button, output what that carbon draw was, right?

Mark 10:56 And it's a bit of an abstract thinking, like, if you think of carbon emissions for a large corporation, you think of things like converting gas powered vehicles to electric, or putting solar panels up on the transmission stations. Like there are things that people think about, and they're like, Yeah, that's going to help with sustainability. But you don't really think about a display ad, for example, being transmitted through a number of different computers, through to a trafficking computer, through to a transmission and then lighting up on someone's cell phone, right? Each of those stages along the way is a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon.

Mark 11:31 And when you add it all up, like you said, the advertising industry is the same as the aviation industry in terms of what its cost is, in terms of a total carbon draw. So Chris hit the nail on the head for marketers, you really can't make data-informed decisions about your business without having that level of granularity. It can't be a one-to-one spend base. It has to be based on activity. So the whole sustainability work that went into the carbon calculator was based on the idea that we need to have that level of granularity to provide our marketers with data and really that that's what it is. It's a data point which allows them to then make business decisions going forward.

Mark 12:08 It wasn't something where we built this necessarily to be prescriptive, where we're going to advertisers and we're saying, Hey, we looked at your last five campaigns, you should really be buying more of this and less of this, or you should be using this channel or this channel. It's not for us to be prescriptive. It's really for us to educate them on what that carbon cost is, or that carbon draw is, by platform, by vertical, by campaign, and then we can have discussions, and they can have discussions internally about what they do with that data.

Alison 12:38 It's such an important education. I've been on the agency side and also on the CMO side earlier in my career, and I had never had an appreciation for the potential positive and negative impact that our profession can have on greening the planet and on sustainability. So the fact that we actually rival the aviation industry is a mind blowing stat for me when I was doing some research.

Mark 13:01 And Alison, that sort of abstract discussions we've had in the meetings we had with people who were working on the project with us, were trying to understand how, for example, a 60-second TV spot draws more carbon than a 30-second TV spot. And then you start to think about it, and you say, well, the screen is going to light up for twice as long, and when your TV is lit up for twice as long, it's drawing twice as much energy, and that energy has a cost associated to it, right? So it is an abstract thing to think that TV commercials are, you know, as damaging as a diesel engine or they're 1000 or 10,000 impressions on a web page is the same as planting a tree. Like there's literally carbon draws with everything you do when you start to look at it en masse, in terms of the billions of impressions that are served and the millions of TV ads, it really does add up.

Alison 13:45 The good news is now we can actually track that and then put solutions in place.

Mark 13:50 Exactly.

Alison 13:51 So you're the first in Canada to do this. I know it's early days. Are you seeing it become a competitive differentiator with advertisers?

Mark 13:59 Currently, it's not. Again, we're not at a stage where this has become something that we did, or we started to do, to make it a differentiator in our market, to say, hold up the flag and say, Look what CBC is doing. You should buy us instead of the other guys, because they're not doing it. That's not what the project was for. The project was to put a stake in the ground, to educate the industry, to, again, show that this is an important thing to look at and going forward, we want to share this with all of our other competitors and friends and CO vendors in the space and partners that we work with, and marketers to say this is something we should be looking at and providing this tool is the first step, because you really can't make changes without that data point. If you can't measure it, you can't have a downstream effect, right?

Mark 14:43 So, so it's early stages. It's an education. We're in the sort of rollout education stage with this, with the hope that other people then call us, whether through their agency, through their marketing partners, other people in the industry, and say, Hey, I like what you're doing with that carbon IQ, the carbon calculator. Is that something we could look at? And we're more than happy and willing to share all of our learnings. It's not something we're keeping close to the vest as CBC as a business differentiator. It's a decision we made because it was the right thing to do.

Alison 15:11 That's great. Thank you for being open to sharing the learning, not just with our audience, but with ultimately, the broader marketing profession as well.

Mark 15:18 Yes, 100%.

Alison 15:19 Now, Chris, I know CBC are the first Canadian broadcaster to adopt your carbon calculator. So can you share how your carbon IQ platform really complements CBC production-focused measurements when it comes to advertising spend and media planning?

Chris 15:32 Yeah, I suppose the first thing, again, Mark's explained that very well, and it is a complicated thing to get your head around, that CBC have been doing for a number of years, great stuff on looking at the emissions from the production of the programs and also the whole corporate emissions. And that reporting has been ongoing, and it's excellent, but this this big part of the business that was actually selling space for corporates to buy that real estate and actually create those emissions. Now, were they CBC's responsibility? I would argue, not necessarily, that there would be no ads if no one bought them.

Chris 16:13 Therefore it's the advertisers responsibility, but they had no mechanism for actually giving that in a compliant manner, hence the engagement with us to actually build the carbon IQ so that they can do two things. One would be to understand where the emissions are going on all these 1000s of ad products that CBC have through TV and their digital platforms so they could understand it themselves. So there was some knowledge to actually start to improve. Is there anything we can do to make this a greener platform? And the second thing was, these companies who are buying these advertising space or this real estate that's actually sitting there, what are the emissions that they're responsible? What are their scope 3 emissions that actually CBC are generating on their behalf. How can we give those give that in a really simple manner?

Chris 17:10 Can we report that and give that across so they can use it in their reporting and improve the way they engage with CBC being the first, but with all companies. So that's much better than using the method they were actually using before. So we actually come on board, as Mark said, as an expert view on where emissions are occurring across order advertising products in all their channels. Therefore, CBC are the first broadcaster, not only really in Canada, but globally, some companies are saying they've done this, but they're not doing it with this rigour and transparency and, importantly, independence.

Chris 17:46 We are we are completely independent of the process. We don't buy advertising. We just create a platform with science- based methodology to enable this to actually be done. One of the most important things about what CBC are doing, there's a lot of people actually do report, but they're doing it in real time. So this is before anything occurs, therefore there's actually an opportunity to engage and actually do something about these emissions. I think that's one of the keys that will become clearer as this rolls out and the communication improves. It's before the advertising occurs, we can see what's about to occur and possibly do something about it, if that's what the customer wants to do.

Alison 18:29 Thanks, Chris, that's a super helpful overview. So at this stage in the conversation, I have no doubt our listeners are intrigued, because there's business reasons to do this, there's consumer reasons to do this, and it's the right thing to do. So Mark, help us now understand the practical implementation. I know in our earlier conversation, you said there's no additional cost or time required for advertisers. So what does that actually look like in practice?

Mark 18:54 Yeah, we've we've sort of engineered it from the beginning to be as low-touch for the marketers and advertisers as possible. Two areas of business that we, our advertising falls into, either direct, or, we'll call it direct, IO or programmatic. So on the programmatic side of things, we've done a lot of homework with a company called Scope 3 to do what's called supply path optimization. We've reduced the number of DSPs we deal with and the number of jumps that an ad needs to make before it gets to the digital space and programmatic. And in doing that, we've sort of reduced our overall emissions in terms of programmatic supply paths. So on that side, it's sort of no touch. And on the direct IO side, we would work with clients. It's as simple as them contacting us and saying, We've run a campaign with you. We'd like to look at what the carbon IQ tells us.

Mark 19:37 We take their booking sheet, their insertion order, as it's known in the industry. We plug that data into the carbon calculator. We get it, we generate a report that has all of their carbon output broken out by platform or by vertical so what was it in digital advertising? What was it in connected TV? What was it with linear television? Whatever they had bought from the CBC, it generates that report, and we would go and review that with them as a key output, either at quarterly business reviews at, you know, the reps would would handle a lot of that work and going back and forth, and again, we provide it sort of, I don't want to say open ended.

Mark 20:11 It has insights, but not prescriptive. So we would say this is what we've learned. Here are some comparisons. Just so you know, your last campaign that ran with us for the month of July had these five different components to it. It had some TV, it had some connected TV and streaming service, and it had some digital audio. The value, or the carbon equivalency, would have been 30 flights between Vancouver and Toronto. So if you wanted to compare that to something else that you're doing, where you're making cutbacks in other areas, this is what your media was worth. So really, it's giving them a value that they can then either campaign over campaign, or, like I said, usually through quarterly business reviews to say what has been our impact, and what could we be doing to change some of these, these outputs, right?

Mark 20:54 And then we have discussions with them, kind of about the levers behind the scenes, like things that affect that number are, for example, country to country, one of the effects on the numbers, where's the energy coming from? Is it solar? Is it wind? Is it hydroelectric? Is it nuclear? An advertiser can't control that lever, right? However, the breakouts that they have by vertical and the amount that they've spent can be reported on. Now that doesn't necessarily take into account the efficiency of each of the platforms. So TV, linear TV, for example, may be a much larger carbon draw than a streaming service might be. However, TV has given you a different reach than the streaming service has, and it's been used for a different purpose in your marketing mix.

Mark 21:36 So it's not just this carbon good, this carbon bad. There's no way of looking at it that way without building in the efficacy of each of those platforms and the efficiency and what you spent on it, and the efficiency and everything else, right? So in the marketing mix, that carbon draw is one piece of data that will help you, over time, to look at what you're doing, and then eventually, down the road, if you have an ESG or some sort of a carbon reduction strategy, you have the data points to work from, instead of just drawing it back to an overall marketing budget.

Mark 22:07 So if your company has said we've reduced airline travel for everyone by two flights a year, because we know this is what it costs us in terms of carbon offsets, let's say. Well now you can do the same with your marketing spend and say this was the carbon cost, not the dollar cost, but the carbon cost of running these campaigns. Where does that fit into our overall sustainability strategy? And again, by having that, we're hoping to lead people down that path of education to say it does have an impact. It is important. It's something you can look at.

Alison 22:38 And to your point, it's so important. Anything we're doing around marketing is really about building brand and delivering business results. So it's mission critical that we really look at this as an important consideration and a trade off, without saying that we're going to replace the critical need to build business and contribute to Canada's economy.

Mark 22:57 100%. There's, there's no, there's no situation where it's like, you really don't want this carbon, don't buy the ads. You can't not buy the ads. It's more thinking about it differently to say, what is the effect of these and where does it fit into my larger marketing budget?

Alison 23:10 Now, given that this is quite new in Canada, I can only imagine some of like the shock value, as you and your team are sharing the carbon impact of the campaigns with different media teams and agencies and brands. How have they reacted?

Mark 23:23 Many agencies, or lots of the agencies that we talked to in building out what the carbon calculator needed to do, have their own either global sort of corporate emissions, like large multinationals already have some of these things built in, and our tool is looking specifically at the Canadian marketplace to draw some of those parallels. So one of our first projects is really to go out when we roll this out, and say to the agencies that already have potentially internal carbon calculators that they're using globally, and say, you give us your number, we'll look at our number.

Mark 23:51 Let's look at where it matches or it doesn't match, and build that standard. You know, you buy television against Numeris or you buy radio, you know, against all these different things that have been in the market a long time in terms of a currency, there is no actual measurement currency that's standardized for the Canadian media industry. So part of this work may be to help roll that out in conjunction with our agency partners. We haven't really rolled it out enough yet to have any shock factors that I can tell you about. You know, most agencies now have somebody that's responsible solely for sustainability and the clients as well. And we're looking forward to going up to the market with this and having this and having those discussions.

Alison 24:08 It's great to hear the progress that we're making from a Canadian perspective. Now it is still clearly in the nascent stages in Canada as well. So I'd love you both to share what you're seeing internationally as far as which markets or brands are really leading the way and what best practices are starting to emerge.

Chris 24:40 Having worked on this project for getting on for two years from start to finish, the language is talking about carbon, is talking about the challenges is there, and it's not the only thing we'll be looking at. And that's exactly where everyone needs to get to. Unfortunately, from me being a bit of a cynic here, there's a lot of brands making claims about how they're reducing emissions, but I can't see any evidence for these claims anywhere. They don't actually share that information, where it's going to be good that the work that's being done at the moment is going to be shared, which increases everyone's knowledge and hopefully gives them confidence to share this knowledge.

Chris 25:21 So I'll give you a couple of examples. I'll give you a couple in Australia, which I think has been doing some pretty good work. So for three years, we've been working with a leading superannuation fund manager, which is a pension fund. They've been able to achieve, for the last two years, reductions in their emissions because they've worked with their agency and said this is important to us. It's actually we want a carbon budget was as well as a financial budget. So although the actual budget and the marketing spend has gone up, the actual emissions have come down. The theory has changed slightly. The mix of the way they were buying their channels and sub channels to make this actually come down a bit. And there were some simple things they could do.

Chris 26:05 So that's that's a great success story, I think, and it's achieved, that's actually given that corporate lower reportable emissions, which is one of the things they want to do. And there's another one which is, and Mark did touch on this, the things that needs to be looked at when we start to include carbon. There's another financial corporation that we actually work with, and they've been able to demonstrate the importance of TV. Because people say, Oh, digital, we can do this stuff, and it's low emissions. But TV actually on the cost of carbon per 1000 views, clicks, whatever the metric is, was actually showing a lower amount of emissions, therefore they could again slightly change their buying patterns to give lower emissions, which again was not affecting the business outcome.

Chris 26:50 They were still selling their goods, services, whatever, in the same manner that they were trying to do, but they had a lower carbon actually response for that. None of that stuff could have happened unless they could see the detail that was actually going on from a carbon point of view, and again, I think importantly, from an independent point of view as well. We weren't involved in the buying or planning. We were just measuring what was occurring and making suggestions and giving that knowledge across to the parties who were buying and planning to make more informed decisions.

Mark 27:22 I was actually earlier this week, on a call with the European sort of governing body of all the different broadcasters in Europe that got together under an umbrella organization called egta. And the the interesting thing is, I would say a lot of the European countries are maybe a year to a year and a half ahead of where Canada is in terms of doing some of this groundwork. Like TF1 in France, for example, we've looked at a lot of their research to help build out some of our strategies in terms of what we think is a good message to the market. Channel Four in the UK, for example, was doing a study similar to what Chris was just saying with Vodafone, one of the large wireless carriers in the UK that was looking at that carbon per impression.

Mark 28:06 So they were literally taking the dollar and working it back from a carbon number to say the whole number isn't really what you need to look at all the time. It's how much am I spending on it versus that number and attributing it down to a value. So they're actually doing some of that legwork now to try to show not all sort of media channels are equal, which we know in terms of our spend as marketers, and, you know, the money we spend, but also what is the impact. So it was interesting to say they were concerned that they were going to go out as Channel Four in the UK and say, This is what TV does, and that buyers would start to take TV off the buy because it was harming the environment more than their digital people were, right?

Mark 28:43 And that wasn't the actual case, because when you actually look at what you spend on TV and what you get in return, the carbon per impression or the carbon per impact was much less than it was for digital, or in the same ballpark. So it's really interesting work that's being done. We are, again, probably a year and a half to two years behind some of the things they're doing in Europe, but it's interesting. Doing this sort of work has got us a seat at the table, so to speak, to have conversations with those large players and a lot of information exchange as well. And the number one thing they said to us in terms of a challenge is actually educating the industry. That education piece is key, and that's a large component of it.

Chris 29:21 Mark's right. The work CBC have been doing, we've been talking about a white paper, which will be published shortly. And everyone I've spoken to around Europe, all keen to actually get their hands on that, which is the roadmap, which would better be shared. They've, obviously, there's some good work being done there, but they're also keen on seeing this work that's being done because it is a big body of work, I would argue it's, it's one of the biggest projects that's actually been done from loads ago, and it's sitting in Canada, which is great.

Alison 29:57 That's amazing to hear. I know not just our listeners, but the CMA membership will be very interested in that. So Mark, when it's ready to share, let me know. We'll be happy to broadcast that with our members as well. So you shared some of the challenges. Obviously, the benefits are very clear. Implementation always presents some challenges, the first challenge being education. So what other challenges are you seeing in the Canadian market?

Mark 30:20 I mean, the only thing, and I sort of alluded to it earlier, is that there's not a standard. If there was a standard currency that everybody was working towards, then you could take the calculator and extrapolate it out to all the different vendors and brands and say, This is what it's going to be. But as we're developing that standard, that's going to be a challenge. The other challenge we face in this moment, and you alluded to it off the top is when times are good and everybody's making lots of money and budgets are fat, people have time for ESG and sustainability. And as things tighten, tighten, tighten down, and people are worried about making their next quarter or their next annual look good, the pendulum can swing away from this to be frank, right?

Mark 30:58 So I don't think it's ever going away, but we're facing a time whereas people are worried about tariffs and, you know, cutbacks and other things like that, having to spend time and energy on sustainability is a challenge, but it's not a challenge that we sort of shy away from, or it's something we don't think we should push forward on. It's a long term play, and it may take us some time to get to see everybody we want to see and have those discussions, because other things have bubbled to the surface, let's say.

Alison 31:24 And ultimately, the true goal standard would be if brands could see them for improved campaign performance alongside reducing that carbon footprint. And the only way that goal is to be able to understand it first and then measure it and see the impact it is having. Now I really appreciate the time you both have given today, I always end each episode by asking my guests to share a piece of career advice.

Alison 31:46 Given the sustainability imperative that we've talked about today, I'm going to switch it up a little bit for the two of you and ask what's your key recommendation for our listeners who are planning their 2026 strategies and want to take a step towards reducing advertising carbon footprint.

Mark 32:04 Yeah, in terms of advice, the one thing I would say is, once you go down the path of learning about this, it's not as daunting as it looks. The work that Chris did and his team, incredibly complex. The math behind it, science behind it, incredibly complex. But the readings that we did to bring ourselves up to speed on this opened up a whole new way of thinking about it, right? So if you're a marketer who this is on your radar at all, and your team is being asked about this at all, I would say, do the reading, just go online, find reputable sources, like anything. The education piece on this is farther behind other markets, so it presents a great opportunity for you to become the team's expert or the subject matter expert on this by doing the reading and listening to the podcast and diving into it. It is actually a really interesting area of science and a really interesting area of commerce, and where those two intersect.

Alison 32:51 Thanks, Mark. And would it be, would it be safe to offer up that they can reach out to you for anyone that's interested in learning more?

Mark 32:58 100%. I won't be the resource, but I'll have the links to send them for the resources. I'm going to throw it out there just as a side plug is, there's a podcast and a web page or a substack called People versus Algorithms. The gentlemen on there, there's three guys who have been in the industry for years and years, who have the most fascinating conversations about everything around sustainability, all the way through AI, all the way through to media. People versus Algorithms, I'll give it a plug. I don't work with these people or anything, but when I started diving into it, everything I read on there was just absolutely fascinating.

Alison 33:29 I listen to podcasts on my morning runs, so that's going to be joining me on my morning run tomorrow.

Mark 33:33 People versus Algorithms. There you go.

Alison 33:35 And Chris, what advice would you share?

Chris 33:36 I would introduce carbon intensity into the valuation or planning process of buying media. And it needs to be weighted, but that can be low to start with, it's not going to actually sway the decision making process. It should just be set in, say, 2% move it to 5% of the against current metrics, and it could increase over time as your confidence grows, as you get more information around this, it will become clearer that it doesn't actually affect business, because I think that's one of the things, or low carbon business, it doesn't. So therefore, start doing it, start understanding it. And I strongly believe it should be independent the buying process. The only place where this accurate and compliant measurement can take place is with media owners like CBC and the other media owners, because they have all the necessary data points to calculate the emissions correctly.

Alison 34:29 So a huge thank you, Mark and Chris, for joining us today. Chris, especially joining us all the way from Australia, I know the time change was a little challenging to manage around, but a really important conversation and a really insightful conversation. So a huge thank you to you both.

Mark 34:43 My pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Chris 34:45 Thank you.

Presenter 34:51 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account, it's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

What if 84% of small businesses needed your platform to survive? Joshua Bloom, GM, Head of US Enterprise Sales and Canada at TikTok, has been working in social media expansion in Canada for over 26 years. His journey led him to become the first employee at MySpace, Facebook, and TikTok Canada. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores Joshua's journey from Wall Street to social media pioneer, why some platforms thrive while others fail, and how he's leading through unprecedented regulatory uncertainty.

Presenter 0:01 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

Alison 0:20 In today's episode, we're exploring the fascinating intersection of digital innovation, economic impact and entrepreneurial resilience with someone who has an absolutely extraordinary track record of being first. So I'm super excited to welcome Joshua Bloom. He has served as the GM of global business solutions for TikTok Canada, and remarkably, has also been the first employee of not one but three major social platforms in Canada, going as far back as MySpace, then Facebook and TikTok. Josh's exceptional leadership was just recognized with a promotion and North American role. So he is now the GM Head of U.S. Enterprise Sales, as well as maintaining Canada at TikTok. Josh's career journey is anything but traditional. From Wall Street to becoming a key architect of social media expansion in Canada over the past 26 years. Since joining on as an instrumental team member in starting TikTok Canada in 2019, he's witnessed the platform grow from a startup operation to an economic powerhouse. Through the combined total of its operations and SMB activities on the platform, TikTok has contributed 2.3 billion to Canada's GDP in 2024 alone. They also support over 613,000 small businesses, 84% of which now consider the platform essential to their survival. This conversation comes at an absolutely critical juncture. With economic uncertainty, we are all managing through dramatic change. With recent regulatory challenges forcing TikTok Canada to pause major cultural investments and face an uncertain future, t hat reality is even more true for Josh and his experience can provide super valuable learning for all of us. So whether you're curious about building social platforms from the ground up, the economic impact of TikTok on Canadian businesses, or how leaders navigate extreme uncertainty, today's conversation promises insights that you won't find anywhere else. So welcome Josh and congratulations on your new role.

Joshua 2:21 Thank you so much, Alison, it's great to talk with you again.

Alison 2:24 Now, Josh, you have this incredibly unique distinction of being employee number one for three major social platforms in Canada. That's a 26 year front row seat to the evolution of social media here, and I'd love you to take us back to the transition from Wall Street to digital, including what was the pivotal moment that convinced you to pursue a career in marketing?

Joshua 2:45 It's funny, I graduated university in 1995, not to age myself, but I graduated a finance degree, and I've always had this vision of working on Wall Street. And so about the end of 1998, after having worked in finance about three years. My cousin Lee Nadler, called a digital pioneer, he was a number 17 employee at DoubleClick. And DoubleClick was first ad serving technology. And DoubleClick also created the very first ad network. So back in the mid to late 90s, they used to represent all the big websites, including Alta Vista, if you remember that search engine before, before Google, sort of like had its, you know, its reign. So he introduced me to the company, and used to tell me stories about how digital was going to be the big thing in advertising. I was not a fan of computers. Still to this day, I'm not great at them, but he mentioned that they were opening up this media team and that I should come and check it out. He finally convinced me, and it was sort of a match made in heaven. And, you know, ended up spending three fantastic years at DoubleClick to which, one, I really learned internet and the potential of the internet, and two, I was really able to understand what working in a really positive culture looked like. DoubleClick, I think was one of the early great digital cultures, and I think that helped me to sort of create sort of what I wanted to see when I led teams later on down the road.

Alison 4:14 Well, a huge thank you on behalf of Canadian marketers for your cousin giving you that push, because clearly we have benefited. And I also like the cultural learning. So being an early adopter to digital and social media is great, but the learning you took on the importance of a culture, regardless of what sector or industry you're in, the culture can be such a competitive advantage, and that's clearly something that you've lived and brought to life in your different roles in Canada,

Joshua 4:38 Absolutely, it was such an empowering and engaging culture. The fantastic leaders that really were people leaders, and it gave everyone an opportunity to to be successful and to be the best versions of themselves. And it was funny because back in that, in that period of time, we were selling digital against all other forms of media. We would literally have packets of 50 to 100 pieces of paper stacked on top of each other with leads that we would call one at a time, and basically try to sell digital media against the other traditional media formats that they were using. It was a really wild time.

Alison 5:18 Now, you were brave to take a leap early in your careers, but you've also built a number of platforms from scratch in the Canadian market. So walk us through what it's like and the approach that you took for building something from scratch.

Joshua 5:31 It's really interesting. So, you know, that started with, you know, my being the first employee in Canada for MySpace. What caught my eye is that, you know, MySpace was a platform that not only was I using, but I was such a fan of music, and I used the platform basically to connect with bands that I adored. And came to a realization very quickly that it really was an amazing platform to discover new music. And when I think about the steps that I took myself in terms of that first platform that I worked with, and then to Facebook, and then to TikTok, it really started with sort of building a vision and then inspiring a narrative that really turned heads.

Joshua 6:11 So when you think about MySpace like it was revolutionary, and you know, combined massive scale with unprecedented self expression, allowing brands like tap into like these rich audience data and target consumers through the culture that they were actively creating. It gave your advertisers an opportunity to like tap, you know, right into that, you know, sort of evolving culture that was, that was being created on the internet. You know, then Facebook was sort of captivating advertisers, you know, for uniting like what was real identity with social connectivity and then enabling very precise targeting at scale. You know, Facebook bought Instagram, and you know that totally transformed advertising by merging, like the visual storytelling with aspirational lifestyle. And yeah, that gave brands a seamless way to inspire and influence and connect.

Joshua 6:59 And now you fast forward to today with TikTok, which has social components to it, but it's really, you know, entertainment-based. It's really just a playground for, like, infinite discovery and driving culture and allowing brands not to just participate, but to actually help to shape culture. And if you do it right, you know, brands have an opportunity to drive, not only the most important business KPIs, but really disrupt the way that we are perceiving marketing today. Second to that, I would probably just say that, like hiring the right folks early, because, like, they're going to set the tone and who you are as an organization in the market, and you need to make sure that the conversations that they're having within the market are ones that are going to sort of ease that barrier entry for testing, so that when that first dollar is spent, it's done in a way that is meaningful, they're learning something, and they're able to then move up from sort of that experiences.

Joshua 7:53 A lot of times, I think you have, you have these sort of call it, shiny objects in markets, and marketers always have testing dollars, but if you don't really get anything out of that test, they flop. And that's why you really only see, like, a handful of platforms that are really are getting, you know, significant dollars and having, like, meaningful partnerships with brands today.

Alison 8:16 It's great advice, and with the three platforms that you've built in Canada, you've been on the ground floor, but you've also seen some that have gone into phenomenal success and some that failed. So MySpace certainly dominated early but ultimately lost market share. Facebook's become a global giant, and Tiktok has been exploding in recent years. So it's great learning and from a strategic perspective, what were the key differentiators between the platforms succeeding longer term, versus those that didn't.

Joshua 8:43 I think MySpace had a really hard time defining itself. If you if you put MySpace and Facebook next to each other, we'll see that MySpace is very much like a, was very much like a social portal, very similar to like a Yahoo, where it was very content-based. You had MySpace Music and MySpace Sports and MySpace News, and there really wasn't much of a focal point, even though music really was its centre. MySpace lost its way, and a lot of that could have also done with the fact that, you know, Rupert Murdoch and News Corp bought, bought the company, and really made it just like a, yeah, a money-making machine, where you then look at Facebook.

Joshua 9:23 And when I joined Facebook, it was a fraction of the size of MySpace. People were telling me it was career suicide at that time. But you could see the difference in the platforms, where, in that Facebook was more of a social utility. It was more, much more similar to Google, you know, where, basically the the news feed that was created really was the bread and butter of Facebook became sort of this, this news source, this personalized newspaper for individuals, where that content was the things that were happening with all the people and entities that they care, they care most about. And Facebook stuck to that you n ever saw Facebook try to build content and be competitive with MySpace. They just got better and better and better at creating a more impactful and a more empowering social utility.

Alison 10:11 Now I want to pivot to the small business community in Canada. Clearly, being a small business in Canada has been really hard work for the last five years. We've had that pandemic, now we have tariffs, we've had a challenging economy, and small businesses are in many ways, are the cornerstone of Canada's economy. Now I know that Nordicity recently completed an economic impact study that Tiktok Canada commissioned that was really illuminating, and before we dive into the specific numbers, I really think it's important to contextualize these findings within the broader reality that's facing Canadian SMEs.

Alison 10:50 So we've seen the business closure rate increase by almost 5% in 2024, 65% of Canadian SMEs are still managing pandemic related debt to average over $100,000 and now they're dealing with the tariff uncertainty and what experts are calling the silver tsunami, where nearly two thirds of Canadian businesses lack succession planning as their baby boomer owners are nearing retirement. So against this backdrop, how do you interpret TikTok's role as an economic lifeline?

Joshua 11:21 The finding that you mentioned before about about 84% of small businesses that consider TikTok essential to their survival is such a profound statement, but also something that has become very real to us because, you know, it's a it's both a testament to the platform's transformative power and it's almost like a clarion call to our responsibility now as a tech company. In this level of dependency, underscores how deeply integrated Tiktok has become in this entrepreneurial ecosystem, especially for small businesses that often lack these extensive resources of large corporations and have also had to deal with things like the pandemic, which I think really shocked like, you know, the entire ecosystem.

Joshua 12:03 This dependency really indicates that, like, that we're not just a platform for entertainment, but we're a vital lifeline for innovation, creativity, economic resilience. I guess it creates this sort of dual responsibility that we have. So I think there's like, there's, there's empowerment support, where I think we just, we have to continue to build and enhance our tools, you know, with features that are going to help small businesses thrive and providing educational resources, access to analytics, promotional opportunities that cater to specifically to their needs. And I think by offering, you know, guidance on best practices, we can really help these businesses to leverage, you know, this unique storytelling capability that we have to help them to, you know, really build authentic connections with their audiences.

Joshua 12:05 I think the second one would be community, and this, this notion of inclusivity, we really do have a responsibility to to foster supportive community where diverse voices can be heard and supported, and this means actively working towards reducing barriers to entry, probably offering financial resources or partnerships that can aid in the visibility of these underrepresented businesses and communities, and promoting initiatives that really celebrate cultural diversity. You see that in a lot of the work it is you know, that we've done, and some of the ones that we've had to unfortunately shut down in the near term, that hopefully we'll be able to bring back up once we can overcome this, this shutdown hurdle.

Joshua 13:24 But really, you know, it's, it's, it's our role to, like, not just like, facilitate growth, but it's got to be something that's sustainable long term, you know, for these, these small businesses. I think it's important that we, you know, we're listening to their needs. You know, we're adapting. We're creating an environment where, where they can, they can thrive. We're, really, are, you know, sort of these, these partners to their journey, and hopefully, you know, a platform that creates economic viability for these businesses. And really, what we're seeing is an ever-evolving, you know, digital world.

Alison 13:53 I know you and your team have done a lot of different initiatives. Is there one that you're particularly proud of, or that the results really surprised you?

Joshua 13:53 So yes, one of the ones that I find most interesting is a company called Edison motors out in BC. Chase Barber, who is the CEO of the company, he's a, he's a trucker, a logger, and he, through TikTok, built basically a hybrid diesel engine, electric and diesel engine. This is something that's never been done before, and something you know that he built from scratch and patented, but used TikTok and its community as a sounding board, and then as he understood the capabilities of this engine and what it could provide, terms of power and efficiencies, you know, for for trucks, he began to basically build his first truck, and got all of his suppliers, also through his relationships in the TikTok community.

Joshua 14:49 You fast forward to today, that company has now been valued at over $200 million, and the use of that hybrid engine, there, there are so many different cases. And this is something that's being built out of Canada. So not only am I proud in sort of that patriotic piece of like something that's completely new, never been done before, and has so many different applications, but to see the platform play such an integral role in helping not only the development of the product itself, but actually to build the infrastructure for for the business, and hopefully help them to continue to thrive.

Alison 15:24 That's an amazing story. Way to go Chase, too. And to see how the community played a mission critical role in the business that he's now built. I can't wait to see where Edison goes next. Now let's turn to TikTok's economic impact study. It shows some remarkable numbers that you and I have both highlighted. One that jumps out to me is 613,000 small Canadian businesses using the platform. And I'd love to hear what from this economic impact study really surprised you about the findings?

Joshua 15:54 Well, I mean, we keep talking about this, the fact that 613,000 small businesses were using the platform last year. You know, when I started at the company six years ago, we were maybe a couple of million individuals using the platform in Canada, and to see how far it's come in that short window of time, it really does blow my mind that not only are they on our platform, but to say that we are essential to their survival, is to say it's a really bold statement.

Joshua 16:23 This isn't, hey, we're a great part of their marketing mix, or hey, like, we're an engaging platform, or drive, you know, some of their their needed business KPIs, but that, like, if we didn't exist, they wouldn't be around. Just tells a lot about how important it is to not only have this platform, but for us to be here. And, you know, to see how the business has grown from from zero now to, you know, $1.4 billion that you know, the TikTok office has created, paying all of our taxes, you know, and being good corporate citizens, and the community work, and the millions of dollars of investment that we've brought back into the community, and all these things, you know, are, some of them surprising, but some of them I'm incredibly proud of, and really is the reason why I'm so passionate about keeping this story going,

Alison 17:14 That really is an incredibly high dependency rate and creates quite a bit of responsibility for the platform as well. So building on that, what responsibility does it create for TikTok as a platform, when these businesses are so reliant on you for their economic visibility and viability as well as their long term success?

Joshua 17:32 Yeah, no. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, there's that sort of empowerment and support piece, you know, where there's the tools and the features and analytics that we need to continuously provide to show that the efforts that they're making, whether they are in an organic nature or in a paid nature, that they truly understand the power of the platform and where they can scale and be able to build business.

Joshua 17:56 And then the second piece is really making sure that we are, we're supporting them, is that community and inclusivity fashion, that they really are becoming a part of something bigger than themselves, that we drive visibility around those underrepresented businesses, that those you know, culturally diverse businesses are being seen. We've done a number of different projects, you know, where we've done in real life, you know, type of activations where, you know, we've brought small businesses, created these these markets so that we can introduce, you know, their products and offerings, you know, to the world.

Joshua 18:35 That maybe gives them that small example of what it might mean to actually open up a brick and mortar store for themselves. I just think at the end of the day, it's just, it's just really important that we just stay on top of these, tools, these best practices, these analytics, and we make it super easy for for them to digest and for them to use and reuse, but also be able to give us input and feedback as to what's working what's not, and how we can continue to better ourselves.

Alison 19:05 I remember your Christmas pop up last year where you celebrated and gave a number of TikTok SMEs the opportunity to be in person selling their products. And I went and had a great experience, and ended up being introduced to new brands, and they became a big part of my holiday shopping. So to see how you are bringing it off the platform and really positively impacting Canadian businesses, a huge credit to you and your team.

Joshua 19:31 Well, thank you, and I hope we can continue to do that, and not just in major markets like Toronto, but build opportunities and these showcases all around the country, you know, so that we can make sure that there are, there are these small businesses, you know, they have the opportunity to be exposed and discovered as well, not just like in major markets.

Alison 19:51 I also remember Erin on your team sharing when we were at the pop up that this was a test market for the concept that Canada came up with the idea, was leading it, and then with the success, with being rolled out in other countries. And I'm always as a very proud Canadian, thrilled when we are able to take our great ideas, prove them in Canada, and then have them rolled out internationally. Another big accomplishment that makes all the marketers in Canada proud. So most businesses and marketers today are navigating through uncertainty, whether it's the economy, tariffs, just the unknown. You are navigating significant uncertainty. So from a leadership perspective, how are you maintaining team morale and business continuity as you manage for the regulatory challenges?

Joshua 20:36 I can tell you, it's not easy. I think it really comes from, one from the resilience that I've built up from working at so many other organizations, and especially Facebook. Facebook went through a number of different challenges, you know, big public challenges that the company had to face, and you had to build a strong backbone. I've always realized that it's really just about focusing on the things that you can control. And so what I've always promised to my team is transparency, and you know, the fact that I will do as much as I possibly can to protect them from as much noise as possible. And that all I can ask of them is to just really focus on what they can control and to continue the conversations and the relationships you know that they're that they're building in market.

Joshua 21:21 We also try to as a team, we try to celebrate each other as much as we possibly can in making sure that, you know, we we identify all the great wins that we cheer each other on. It's very much a family dynamic is, I think, what's been created here at TikTok. And I think that dynamic in itself builds a resilience as well. It, you know, creates almost like a bubble. So that you know, when you do get hit by some of these negative news cycles, you know, or someone senior in the in the company left, or some big issues happen, you know, within the organization, sort of become a little bit more resilient to it. And, you know, not that it doesn't, it doesn't affect folks, but I think it bounces off a little easier than typically if you have an environment where, you know, like, people are just not working all that closely together, it's not much of a as much of a group dynamic.

Joshua 22:07 And you know, everyone's sort of an individual contributor looking after themselves. So it really is just sort of that, that focus of control. And if you can be consistent with that, and make sure that people know that, you know, you are, you are optimistic about, you know, the future of the organization, and that you are continuous in your communications about updates of things that are happening. I think people feel a lot more comfortable, and that is that has really helped us to sort of continue to keep this business going. And mind you, like I said, it hasn't been easy. We've lost a lot of folks, and understandably so, because there's just always going to be that inherent fear that suddenly, you know, tomorrow, the Canadian government is going to shut our offices down. I don't see that particularly happening, but you know, that's a fear that people, that people have.

Alison 22:59 Great advice,, the transparency, the authenticity, the reality is, we never have all of the answers in any role we're in, you're in a position where you can't possibly have some pretty important answers. So being open and honest about that and transparent is the only way through it. Have you learned any lessons the hard way? Because again, none of us are perfect. If you had a do over, is there anything it would change about your approach.

Joshua 23:21 What I will say is this is great leaders. I think fight for their teams. But sometimes you have to represent the company. There are things that you may not necessarily agree with or like in terms of actions that companies are going to take, or changes to the way the company is doing business, or how employees are being taken care of. Sometimes you fight, and sometimes you just have to deliver that message. And it's hard, it's hard as a leader to do that. And I think mistakes that I have made in the past is sometimes I have fought too hard for the team, where there were just some instances where I just didn't really need to, and, you know, I probably pushed too hard, and rather than sort of taking a step back and really looking at the big picture and be like, is this, you know, is this the sort of the hill I want to, I want to stand on, you know, or die on. So I've had a really big learning just about finding that balance between representing your team and representing the company.

Alison 24:19 That makes a ton of sense, and thanks for your candour. That's very great self awareness, and it also reinforces what we talked about earlier. We are always, regardless of any level we're at in our career, we're always learning, we're always making mistakes, we're always finding ways to improve. So thank you. Now you've positioned TikTok as moving beyond traditional social media to more of an entertainment platform and really a discovery destination with the launch of the new insight tools for brands, expansion into some strategic business intelligence. Can you share how this evolution is changing the conversation that you're having with Canadian marketers and agencies?

Joshua 24:54 I think in these six years, the platform has matured significantly. Not only do we have a scaled platform, but we have so many tools and analytics now and proven results that I think it sort of breaks itself down into we'll call it three and a half, sort of like four opportunities that are really driving the future of the business. The first one is, is if we just think about video, and just how important video has become with marketing, and specifically on TikTok, when you have the For You feed, you know, which is sort of this serendipitous experience of infinite discovery, and the amount of attention that people pay in that feed is more so than anywhere else. I mean, people spend, you know, a movie's worth the time on our platform every single day.

Joshua 25:46 It's really not just a first screen. It's the only screen. If you use a platform like, you know, like when you're on TikTok, you can't do anything else. You can't watch TV, you can't type, you can't do like, you just, literally, you're just, like, so absorbed, you know, in the content. And we've built, as I mentioned, enough tools now and proven analytics that we can drive, you know, KPIs, you know, everywhere through the funnel, whether it's everything from just brand activity to, you know, conversion and loyalty.

Joshua 26:17 The second one is, is really sort of the next place where people spend a lot of time on a platform, and that is in Search. As a brand, you want to be present when people are proactively looking for you or something similar to you. And so our platform has become one of the biggest search platforms now, you know, on the on the planet, and anything that you could possibly want to learn or create, you know, you just type that into into our search box, and you will get so many results and be able to deep dive into the these communities of of content around any subject matter you could possibly imagine.

Joshua 26:54 It's become this incredible global educational tool. And so, as an advertiser, you want to think about what your approach should be around search on TikTok. And as a marketer, if you can go back to 2000, would you think differently about how you approached Google when it comes to search engine optimization and search engine marketing? So you have this mix of organic and paid media that can complement one another. And the reality is, is that the more content that you produce for TikTok, you know, around your brand, you know, the more that you're going to show up, you know, through the algorithm when people are looking at search terms.

Joshua 27:28 And so I think people are just starting to realize that, and there is an opportunity for for brands to really own search on our platform, if they really start creating, you know, the right content that will fit well within that specific behaviour. The third one is, you know, we talked about this a little bit, is sort of our commercial partnerships, and really extending TikTok off of mobile and all the opportunities, and, you know, the 2 billion plus screens in real life experiences, partnerships that we can do, you know, building, you know, different medias together to triangulate around a specific message is really starting to reshape the way that we think about marketing. TikTok has an amazing capability of being a remarkable distribution partner for so many different platforms, you know, as well as for brands to bring visibility and engagement, you know, to whatever the idea or activation is.

Joshua 28:20 Because you know, as you know, as you know, in our platform, our algorithm is very different than what you have with Facebook and with Instagram. It's not built off social graph. It's built off content graph. So rather than, you know, seeing content from the people or entities that you care most about, with TikTok, we celebrate great content. So a great piece of content is going to move far within, you know, within our algorithm, to where you can literally go from zero to hero overnight. Zero followers, zero content, you know, to hundreds of 1000s of followers and millions of engagements. And that can have substantial impact, you know, on everything from musicians, small businesses, entrepreneurs, I could go on million different tangents of like, different categories that this can that this can support. And so I really think we have a unique ability to really change a lot of these, these marketing dynamics that we currently play in.

Joshua 29:14 And then the fourth one, which is really interesting is Insights. We've started to build some tools now that are allowing brands to really understand how their brand is being talked about or exposed on our platform through user generated content. We have a platform called Content Suite that allows a brand to go in and basically see all the posts that are being created with their brand around it, whether their brand is being talked about, whether their brand is being worn on a shirt in the background. If their brand or logo is present, that will show up. And then you'll be able to see all the keywords that are represented around your particular brand, so you can see what context people are talking about, and then obviously, the demographics, the timeframe, etc. And what you can do is you can look at some of the most popular posts that are being created by these users, request you know their their approval, and be able to put media behind those posts and let them represent your voice.

Joshua 30:11 And this creates a really unique opportunity for brands to be able to allow creators to represent their brands, in a really cool, authentic and fun way, without them having to sort of push, you know, their their agenda as a brand themselves. And what I find really interesting is that as they do that you can start to look at whether or not, you know, call the chatter, or whether the amount of engagement that's happening on the platform around your brand is changing, or even when you run a paid a paid marketing campaign around a specific product or service or master brand campaign, you can actually see over time whether or not it's actually impacting the way people are talking about your brand, or the amount of conversation that's happening around your brand organically in the platform. That's super interesting stuff. And then the other one you know that we that we have is is really about being able to create clusters of people around your brand, and in what sort of stage of the relationship they are with you. Like, are these people? Basically, they just, like, understand your brand, and you want to show them media that kind of helps them to, you know, sort of consider, you know, you as as a brand that they might use, and you kind of get them further down the funnel, or, you know, a cluster of people that are actually considering your brand, or a cluster of people that are already customers of your brands, you know, or they're loyalists. And so when you think about how you communicate to those individual clusters, there's, they're very different in terms of what you're going to actually say to them and and what you're trying to accomplish and in those communications. And so we have the ability for brands to not only see that information, but be able to build those clusters and then put paid media behind it and see the results of those actions.

Joshua 31:52 So really interesting, interesting stuff, and we take a step back, you go, okay, TikTok, you know, not so long ago, you know, you were basically musically, you're young teenagers, you know, dancing and lip syncing to, you know, today, you know where, you know, not only have you become this, you know culture of a sort of discovery platform, you know, globally, with over a billion users, but you know you are now being able to drive real business impact in a way that you know, other platforms just just haven't been able to yet, with an opportunity to go so much further and extend the way that, again, that we think about marketing as a whole.

Alison 32:28 Great examples, Josh, thank you very much. Now you've been super generous with your time. I really appreciate it. And I have one more question before I let you go. Now you have built three major social platforms from the ground up. You've navigated the digital marketing landscape for almost three decades. What is one piece of career advice that you would give our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

Joshua 32:50 I talked about pivoting already, and, you know, I think that's really important to know, to know when you're wrong, and being able to pivot. And again, like even just in my career, going from finance to digital. It just, it felt right. And that kind of goes along with this idea of trusting your gut. You're not going to always be right, but it's, but it's like, you know, your spidey senses are telling you should be doing something, give it a go. You know, it kind of goes along these lines of this new opportunity for my expansion of my purview, with now being able to be also GM and Head of the U.S. Enterprise Sales Team, along with Canada. Originally, you know, I wasn't necessarily interested in the opportunity, but the more that I thought about it, and I realized, like, you know, this is a way for me, obviously, you know, expose myself further, take some of the learnings that I've gotten from from Canada, and bring it to a bigger market. It's not so often that a Canadian leader has an opportunity to move into the U.S. and have this size of business to manage. And so yeah, when you when your gut tells you like this is the right move, just kind of, you got to, you got to take a chance and be willing to to make those, those necessary pivots.

Joshua 33:57 When I moved from MySpace to Facebook, again, Facebook was maybe one quarter the size of MySpace, and people told me it was career suicide. To me, it just felt like the right move. I could see the amount of energy and engagement that was happening on Facebook and how it was growing super fast at least in Toronto, comparatively to MySpace, where everything just looked like it was slowing down and people were just less engaged. Because it just wasn't that authenticity, that TikTok has a communication utility.

Joshua 34:26 To where I've gone to TikTok now it's like, okay, this isn't just another social media platform, like, this is a entertainment platform, and that opens the doors to so many other opportunities and conversations that I'm going to be able to have, not just with brands, but with musicians and labels and sports figures and other areas of interest that can all be facilitated on this platform where we can drive meaningful impact, let alone the community nature of the platform, and where that has gone to in terms of where we've been able to drive that success. So your gut tells you, like, it feels like the right thing to do? A lot of times it is. And you know, just realize it quickly, if it wasn't the right decision, you have to pivot. So trust your gut and then pivot when necessary.

Alison 35:14 Absolutely outstanding advice. The other word that I would add that is linked to that is bravery. Like there's bravery and trusting your gut in making the decisions, especially when people are telling you that it's career suicide. So you're giving credit to yourself for knowing what's right for you, and sort of blocking out the naysayers who really don't have that inside view on what is right for you.

Joshua 35:36 We used to have a sign in Facebook. We had all these mantras all over the offices around the world, and Facebook and one of them was, what would you do if you weren't afraid?

Alison 35:44 Thanks so much, Josh and again, huge congratulations on your new role. Very excited for you.

Joshua 35:49 Thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Presenter 35:57 Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account, it's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

What's your organization doing to help Canadian businesses grow? In a country where 1.2 million small businesses are struggling to remain competitive, and only 12% are using AI technology, the You.Scaled partnership has created a solution. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews Karla Congson, CEO and Founder of Agentiiv, to explore how this AI accelerator program evolved into a comprehensive partnership between CMA, Agentiiv, Staples, RBC Ownr, and CCNDR - awarding 500 grants to help SMEs and nonprofits harness AI to compete globally.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:16 - 00:00:51:09 Alison In today's episode, we explore an exciting new program that the CMA is very proud to be a part of. The program provides much needed support to Canadian Small businesses and not-for-profits. The new you.scaled program, which just launched as part of SME Month in Canada, is an ambitious $5 million AI accelerator program that demonstrates what's possible when organizations unite around a shared vision of empowering our small businesses and not-for-profit communities.

00:00:51:11 - 00:01:17:14 Alison I'm very excited to welcome Karla Congson, the founder and CEO of agentiiv and the visionary who brought the initial idea of you.scaled to the CMA. What makes this story truly remarkable isn't just a really innovative idea. It's also how that idea has been transformed into a national program for the collective strength of strategic partnerships. The program you'll hear about today wouldn't exist without the unique contributions each partner brings to the table.

00:01:17:16 - 00:01:43:12 Alison The CMA is proud to provide the educational foundation through our generative AI training courses, along with significant AI thought leadership and resources, and membership benefits that will help businesses implement these tools effectively. Ownr brings essential business setup and legal expertise. Staples is contributing their extensive reach and business services network and CCNDR are ensuring that we're addressing the nonprofit sector with the same commitment we bring to SMEs.

00:01:43:14 - 00:02:15:03 Alison This partnership matters because the challenge we're addressing is massive. Despite a transformative potential, only 12.2% of Canadian businesses are currently using AI technology, while 73% of SMEs haven't even considered implementing it. Meanwhile, our 1.2 million small businesses, which employ almost 62% of Canada's private workforce and contribute 38% of our private sector GDP, are facing unprecedented pressures to modernize, just to remain competitive.

00:02:15:05 - 00:02:50:04 Alison Karla brings over two decades of experience as a marketing executive and business leader before pivoting into entrepreneurship and hands on AI development. Today's conversation is about much needed support for Canadian SMEs and NFPs. It's also about collective impact and how strategic partnerships can amplify individual innovation to create solutions that no single organization could deliver alone. So whether you're a Canadian small business or not-for-profit looking for ways to leverage AI so you can become even more competitive and deliver business results, or curious about how collaborative programs can help drive economic development,

00:02:50:06 - 00:03:00:13 Alison today's conversation will offer insights into partnership driven innovation that can help reshape how we think about supporting Canadian businesses. Welcome, Karla. It's wonderful to have you here today.

00:03:00:15 - 00:03:03:12 Karla Thanks so much, Alison. It's a privilege to be here.

00:03:03:14 - 00:03:23:04 Alison Now, I want to start with the idea and why it's needed so much. So we know that SMEs are the cornerstone of Canada's economy, and there's no doubt that they've had quite a challenging number of years, everything from the pandemic, challenging economic times and now political uncertainty and tariffs. So to say that they're in need of support is an understatement.

00:03:23:06 - 00:03:34:05 Alison And I know that's a passion for both of us in our organizations. So with that as the backdrop, I'd love you to share more about our newly launched Youth Scale program and how it benefits SMEs.

00:03:34:07 - 00:03:55:09 Karla You're absolutely right, Alison, about SMEs facing unprecedented challenges. I've watched friends and colleagues and these incredible businesses, the backbone of our economy, get hammered by everything from supply chain disruptions to labour shortages. And now so many people come to me and they're telling me that they're watching AI transform their bigger competitors, while they're feeling like it's out of reach.

00:03:55:11 - 00:04:12:20 Karla And the other part of this too, which I can fully relate to as a small business ourselves, is that a small business owner's most valuable commodity is time. We never have enough of it. And not enough time to get on top of AI trends, choose the right tools, invest in training. And that's where you.scaled and its partners come in.

00:04:12:22 - 00:04:41:09 Karla What makes you.scaled unique is the comprehensiveness of the program. Most AI initiatives focus on single solutions, but we envision addressing the entire business ecosystem that small companies need in order to scale. Agentiiv was the catalyst that got the program going, and it all began with an idea and a desire to really make a difference. We're giving away $4 million of market value of our own services to provide an enterprise grade AI platform with 100 specialized agents.

00:04:41:11 - 00:05:16:15 Karla And the CMA plays such a critical role in this by providing AI training, marketing education, distribution, robust thought leadership, and membership benefits. RBC Ownr handles all the business set up, the legal support and financial services. Staples provides operational backbone with business services, and CCNDR ensures nonprofit participants get specialized support. So when a small manufacturer in Saskatoon can suddenly compete with enterprise level efficiency, or a nonprofit in Nova Scotia can augment their donor communications to focus on mission critical work,

00:05:16:20 - 00:05:22:18 Karla W e're collectively building a Canada where small businesses can compete on a world stage.

00:05:22:20 - 00:05:41:22 Alison Building on that, when you first envisioned the you.scaled program at agentiiv, you realized that it could become something much bigger through partnership. So I'd love you to walk us through that evolution from when you first conceived the idea, to what made you realize that you needed partnerships to really make it scale to the degree that you hoped it would.

00:05:42:00 - 00:06:10:12 Karla Well the evolution of you.scaled really started with a fundamental question. Who else is as passionate about helping Canadian small businesses succeed as we are at agentiiv, being a Canadian small business ourselves? And I knew that for this to work, I needed partners who shared that core mission. And our first reach out was to the CMA. The Canadian Marketing Association was and is the perfect first partner because they have trust and educational credibility with the business community.

00:06:10:14 - 00:06:40:12 Karla When I approached the CMA, they immediately understood that AI literacy was becoming as fundamental as digital literacy was a decade ago, and they had already prepared several programs to that end. Staples brought something crucial - the physical business services and operational support that growing companies need. Their contribution evolved the program by supporting their broader operations through print services for marketing campaigns, discounts and office supplies for expansion, business services for operational growth.

00:06:40:18 - 00:07:06:09 Karla Staples filled the practical gaps and execution. RBC Ownr provided essential services that help businesses get started. They provide the incorporation or business set up done online, in minutes, at a fraction of the cost and complexity of going to a traditional firm. And CCNDR, the Canadian Council for Nonprofit Directors, which is a division of Imagine Canada, brought the nonprofit perspective.

00:07:06:15 - 00:07:29:05 Karla This partnership ensured we weren't just creating a program for small businesses. We're building something that strengthens entire communities. What's beautiful about how each partner's contribution made the others more effective was that the program evolved from just, you know, free AI access, if it had just been us, to comprehensive business transformation, something that none of us individually could have created alone.

00:07:29:05 - 00:07:38:13 Karla But together we built something that genuinely addresses the full spectrum of what Canadian SMEs and nonprofits need to thrive in an AI-driven economy.

00:07:38:15 - 00:07:58:01 Alison So it's clear that there are a robust array of benefits for the SMEs and the not-for-profits that are successful in obtaining the grants. It's also clear that this is a pretty complex partnership with quite different types of organizations. So what was the most challenging aspect of aligning such diverse organizational cultures around a single program and vision?

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:34:10 Karla Well, it's funny, orchestrating these different organizational partners has actually been easier than you might think. And here's why. We started with a group of organizations that shared a fundamental, common mission, putting their resources to work to help Canadian small businesses succeed. Each partner immediately understood their individual impact could be exponentially greater through collaboration. The most challenging aspect, and honestly, the only real challenge, was navigating the typical processes of large organizations. Legal approvals, partnership agreements, coordination mechanisms, and aligning just different operational timelines.

00:08:34:12 - 00:08:58:00 Karla But that effort has been absolutely worth it based on what we can achieve together. What we've created is something none of us could have built alone. A comprehensive support ecosystem where each partner's strengths amplified the others. When organizations generally share the same mission of strengthening Canadian small businesses, partnership architecture becomes about maximizing collective impact, and we were all able to move together.

00:08:58:02 - 00:09:20:06 Alison So you've shared a bit about the CMA contribution and so have I. I'd like to talk a little bit more about it. So agentiiv is providing the AI platform, which is absolutely the cornerstone of the you.scaled program. And then CMA is bringing educational foundation that helps make implementation successful, whether it's our generative AI training courses, our robust AI resources, or the thought leadership.

00:09:20:08 - 00:09:41:18 Alison They're all tools that can help businesses and not-for-profits, along with the distribution and membership benefits that we're providing, will really help the successful candidates be able to implement and leverage all of the tools successfully. So how does the partnership address what you identified as that 86% failure rate in meaningful AI implementation?

00:09:41:20 - 00:10:09:18 Karla Marketing is a critical component of the small business value chain, and that's why the CMA became such an essential partner for making this a successful program. For small businesses, marketing isn't just one department, it's often the primary growth engine and the foundation of their customer relationships. If they can't effectively communicate their value proposition, reach their target audience, or maintain brand consistency, no amount of AI capability will drive meaningful business results.

00:10:09:20 - 00:10:44:10 Karla And that's part of that, you know, high failure rate that you talked about, is people look at the tool and not the actual objective. CMA brings something irreplaceable to this partnership ecosystem, proven marketing education methodology and decades of experience helping Canadian businesses think strategically about customer engagement. Their AI literacy training isn't just about using the tools, it's about applying strategic marketing thinking to AI implementation, ensuring that these small businesses understand how to integrate AI into their broader marketing and communication strategies.

00:10:44:12 - 00:11:11:16 Karla When the CMA joined the partnership, it validated our comprehensive approach. The CMA's role as the marketing and strategic education cornerstone to the program makes the entire ecosystem more powerful and more likely to drive lasting transformation. This partnership directly addresses that 86% AI implementation failure rate that you mentioned by tackling the root cause, the gap between having access to AI and actually using it effectively.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:20:21 Karla CMA'Ss generative AI courses, thought leadership, and ongoing support create that critical foundation that makes the technology adoption sustainable.

00:11:20:23 - 00:11:50:08 Alison So we no doubt have many listeners who might be small businesses themselves or not-for-profits. Or if they're not, they probably know some small businesses and not-for-profits that could absolutely benefit from the you.scaled program. Collectively, we are planning to award 350 grants to SMEs and 150 to nonprofits across Canada, and they will have amazing benefits that are provided by the you.scaled program, which is clearly quite an enormous opportunity for those businesses and not-for-profits.

00:11:50:10 - 00:11:57:11 Alison So I'd love you to share how interested parties can apply for the program and what's required for them to be successful.

00:11:57:13 - 00:12:25:23 Karla Absolutely. Applications are now open through you.scaled.com, and we're looking for organizations that demonstrate both need and readiness. We want businesses and nonprofits that are motivated to embrace change, have some basic digital literacy, and can commit to the learning process. The key requirement for success isn't technical sophistication. You don't need to be using AI right now. It's organizational openness and a clear vision for your goals for growth.

00:12:26:01 - 00:12:49:22 Karla We're looking for leaders who see AI as an opportunity to amplify what they already do best, not as a magic solution that requires no effort. Successful recipients typically have someone on their team that can serve as an AI champion or key point of contact. Not necessarily technical, but just curious and willing to experiment with this technology. We're also prioritizing applications that show potential for community impact.

00:12:50:00 - 00:13:01:20 Karla A rural nonprofit that could serve more families, a manufacturing company that could create jobs. Those multiplier effects are what makes this program transformational rather than just charitable.

00:13:01:22 - 00:13:21:11 Alison So we will include the link to the website in the podcast notes to make it easy for grant access. Now, the you.scaled program emphasizes authentic Canadian values, community support, collective progress, and regional representation are all key parts of this. So I'd love you to share with our listeners why this is an important part of the program.

00:13:21:12 - 00:13:53:06 Karla Well, Canadian values aren't just marketing language for us. They're operational principles around how we've architected the program and how we do the screening. We designed you.scaled to embody what Canada does best - collective problem solving, regional equity and building everyone up rather than leaving anyone behind. But there's also an urgent economic imperative here. ICTC research shows that AI adoption could boost Canada's productivity by 1.5% annually over the next decade.

00:13:53:08 - 00:14:23:04 Karla That represents up to $200 billion in economic opportunity for Canada. As Minister Evan Solomon emphasizes, AI represents Canada's economic destiny. The you.scaled program ensures that SMEs and nonprofits, which employ over 65% of Canadians, are participating in this productivity transformation, not watching it from the sidelines. Our selection process actively ensures meaningful regional representation across all provinces and territories.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:50:07 Karla We're also ensuring that women-led, indigenous-led businesses and minority-owned businesses are proportionally represented because diverse leadership creates more resilient and innovative business solutions. Ultimately, you.scaled isn't just about individual business success, it's about ensuring Canada's economic transformation and ensuring that includes everyone, strengthening our national productivity while staying true to our values of equity and community support.

00:14:50:09 - 00:14:59:05 Karla When SMEs across Canada can compete globally using AI capabilities, we're not just helping individual businesses, we're securing Canada's economic future.

00:14:59:07 - 00:15:15:14 Alison So looking ahead, the you.scaled program could serve as a powerful model for how Canadian organizations collaborate to help address national challenges. So what lessons about partnership development and management do you think other leaders could apply in their own collaborative initiatives?

00:15:15:16 - 00:15:42:22 Karla The key lesson from you.scaled is that transformational partnerships require what I call complementary incompleteness. Each partner needs to bring something essential that the others can't replicate, but no single partner can solve the full problem alone. What makes partnerships create real impact versus just share costs is having a shared vision that's bigger than any individual organizational goal. We didn't start with how can we promote our brands together?

00:15:43:00 - 00:16:11:17 Karla We collectively started with, how can we solve a national economic challenge that no single organization can address? The difference maker is also having clear accountability for collective outcomes, not just individual contributions. We measure success by SME transformation rates, not by how many training courses, you know, the CMA delivered or how many businesses onboarded. When everyone's success is tied to the same outcome, you get real collaboration instead of coordinated self-promotion.

00:16:11:19 - 00:16:24:06 Alison I absolutely love your phrase complementary incompleteness. So I want to drill down on it a little bit more. What makes the difference between partnerships that create real impact versus those that are more around cost sharing?

00:16:24:08 - 00:16:43:12 Karla Again, it comes back to that shared mission and being something bigger than what each individual group can. When you share a common purpose, that's where motion meets meaning and everybody is motivated to put in 110% into that partnership.

00:16:43:14 - 00:17:07:09 Alison I couldn't agree more. And this has been a really great example of that. So Karla, before we wrap, I would love to switch gears and ask the question that I end each of my episodes with. You have an absolutely amazing career that spans agency leadership, big brands, and now founder and entrepreneurial roles. So I know our listeners would love to hear the one piece of career advice that you would share with people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:17:07:11 - 00:17:38:14 Karla Wow. That's that's a big question. So the best career advice I can give is this. Your biggest competitive advantage today isn't what you know. It's how quickly you can learn what you don't know. Things are changing so quickly with AI, expertise is becoming commodified. And according to the CEO of Google DeepMind, Demis Hassabis, learning how to learn will be the critical must-have technical skill any of us can have today.

00:17:38:16 - 00:18:01:20 Karla I've had to reinvent myself multiple times, from corporate marketing to entrepreneurship to now, you know, AI engineer. And each time being willing to be a beginner again has been more valuable than any existing expertise. Also, never underestimate the problem of solving problems that everybody says are too hard or not worth it. That's exciting. And it's a big, hairy, audacious goal.

00:18:01:20 - 00:18:27:08 Karla And the realization that you can't do it yourself is actually key to bringing in your collective network to solve that big, hairy problem. And then finally, build for the people you want to serve, not the people who are easiest to sell. Again, that generates purpose. And as I mentioned, purpose is where motion meets meaning and is a driving force for everything that we do at agentiiv.

00:18:27:10 - 00:18:44:07 Alison That is absolutely brilliant advice and thank you so much for sharing. And Karla, I want to say a huge thank you for being the vision behind the you.scaled program idea and for reaching out to the CMA. It is an absolute pleasure for us to be part of this and to be actively supporting Canadian small businesses and not-for-profits.

00:18:44:07 - 00:18:45:21 Alison So a huge thank you.

00:18:45:23 - 00:18:55:00 Karla Ah, we're grateful back for your incredible partnership and your contributions.

00:18:55:02 - 00:19:07:15 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Does working hard still help achieve your dreams? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews two strategists from Leo Burnett Toronto: Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer, and Sarah Carpentier, PhD, Senior Strategist. Their focus is the 2025 HumanKind Study, revealing how Canadians feel about work and life. When 83% of people don't believe hard work will pay off, the connection between effort and reward has changed - and brands should understand why.

7085B3-CMAPodcast - Ep. 53 - Tahir Ahmad and Sarah Carpentier ===

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:27] Alison: If you're a marketer wondering how to connect with people who are stressed, uncertain, and frankly just trying to get through the day, well you are definitely not alone. Today, we're diving into Leo Toronto's HumanKind Study with Tahir Ahmad and Dr. Sarah Carpentier. Tahir serves as Chief Strategy Officer at Leo Toronto.

[00:00:45] Alison: He's also the original vision behind their highly insightful HumanKind study. It's research that delves into how Canadians are feeling and key trends, including what's keeping consumers up at night. And there are quite a few things keeping us up at night right now. Sarah made the leap from PhD student and management consulting to agency behavioural scientist a little over two years ago, bringing her doctorate in psychology to Leo Toronto, where she's a senior strategist and a principal force behind the HumanKind study.

[00:01:12] Alison: Now in its fourth year, the HumanKind study dives deep into the emotional undercurrent, opportunities and genuine challenges that are facing Canadians today. A few of the themes that we are gonna cover off include Social Stage Fright, Hustle to Nowhere, and Alexa, what is critical thinking. This year, the study also focused on younger Canadians, age 16 to 45, and took a closer look at newcomers to help uncover the emotional undercurrents that are shaping the next generation.

[00:01:40] Alison: It's also the second year that the study expanded beyond Canada to the U.S. to help us really understand how Canadians compare to and differ from Americans. Given the uncertainty with tariffs and the renewed Canadian patriotism, this view is both very timely and sure to provide some fascinating insights to make today's discussion both informative and actionable.

[00:01:58] Alison: Sarah and Tahir will also share what brands can do to help Canadians address their concerns and needs. Welcome Sarah and Tahir. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

Sarah: Thank you.

[00:02:07] Tahir: Thanks Alison. It's great to be back. I know we did this last year, so super excited to share the fourth edition.

[00:02:15] Alison: I'm looking forward to it too. Now, Sarah, since you're new this year and you have an unconventional path to our profession, uh, before we dive into the study, I would really love to hear what attracted you from being a PhD to the wonderful world of marketing and agency life, and also share a bit about what the transition's been like.

[00:02:30] Sarah: Oh, that's a fun question. Okay, so yeah, I think my day to days have changed a little bit. I definitely know a lot more cross industry jargon or I'm really, really collecting it as I go through life. But ultimately everything I've always done at school or at any point in my career is still always ultimately about understanding why people think, feel, and act the way they do, and then how I can use that knowledge to help, you know, improve lives.

[00:03:00] Sarah: So it really all ladders up to the same thing and it, we really understand how it all goes together. I left the PhD world, it was wonderful. But as much as I love research on its own, I really felt quite disconnected from doing something with what was being learned. So I wanted to kind of go out in the world a little bit and help share that knowledge with the people who can benefit from it.

[00:03:21] Sarah: And I think on face value, it can seem a bit out of place for a scientist to want to seek out working at a creative agency. But I know that if you listen to the data and if you listen to the science, then it tells us that human creativity is a really essential ingredient in really connecting people to ideas and creating new ideas that actually move people.

[00:03:45] Sarah: Right. And I really wanted to be a part of that. And when I heard about the HumanKind study and I met Tahir, and I met Ryan Roberts, our SVP of Strategy as well. I loved the way that they thought. I was like, they think like me. They get it. This isn't just something they say, this is actually something they really, really care about and live and breathe.

[00:04:02] Sarah: And so I was really excited to join the team.

[00:04:04] Alison: It's absolutely great to have you in our profession. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the HumanKind study today. So Tahir, let's start by having you share a little bit about the study and how it's evolved over the four years.

[00:04:14] Tahir: It's pretty amazing to be here four years in, I guess, now already starting to plan the fifth year.

[00:04:19] Tahir: So the fifth edition is in the works, which is great. And I, I know that we did this last year and we've appeared, I think on the CMA conference a couple years in a row. So maybe there are some people familiar with the study, but, just to very quickly go, you know, to its, its origin. It really fell out of this need to have more Canadian research at hand and, and frankly, our philosophy at Leo is all around humankind and the intimate and deep understanding of human beings and what they need and want and what they dream about, fear and everything that they care about in terms of improving the quality of their life.

[00:04:56] Tahir: And, you know, we just felt as though we never really had this, you know, data that we could go to, uh, and mine that really reflects the mindset of the country. You know, we do research bespoke for clients or particular briefs, and so to truly say that we understand Canadians and human beings better than anyone else, you know, we wanted to create something more proprietary that we could draw from each and every day.

[00:05:24] Tahir: And so that was a bit of a fumbly way of saying how we got to the first edition. And it was very much a, off the side of the desks, you know, we just tried to pull together, uh, as much data as we could. And you can imagine that it's kind of like boiling the ocean. And so over time we've just gotten better and smarter and more efficient at distilling the findings into something that really gets at, uh, perhaps a sharper point of view and what Canadians are thinking and feeling and more

[00:05:50] Tahir: importantly, the way that brands can help solve for those problems and those needs in their lives. And so for this fourth edition, we did change things up a little bit, as you mentioned, off the top. We tried to focus on a younger demos, and Sarah, I'm sure will correct me, as she should, but it was 18 to 45.

[00:06:06] Tahir: I want, no, sorry, 16 to 45.

Sarah: Sixteen!

Tahir: Yes. Yeah. Sixteen. First correction of the podcast. But yeah, so I, the 16 to 45, which is really intentional on our part because we've had so many conversations with our client partners around not just Gen Z, but even Gen Alpha. And I know that that age range doesn't necessarily tip into that demo, but it just helped us get to a perspective from a segment of the population that is typically hard to hear from.

[00:06:35] Tahir: And so it required a bit more effort and you know, a real conscious effort to hear from those voices because you know, as you can imagine with 16, 17, 18 year olds, they're not always so willing to share their point of view or what they fear in life or what they're going through. And I think that was like, what was really eyeopening for us in this edition is when you're starting to see the anxieties and the tensions that not only those of us who are

[00:07:00] Tahir: living life as adults with kids and the pressures of careers and retirement looming for some people, these are people that are really just starting out their lives and to have a better understanding of what they're already struggling with was really eye-opening.

[00:07:14] Alison: I'm looking forward to diving into those results for sure.

[00:07:17] Alison: You also have a longer lens view, uh, and through four fairly tumultuous years, certainly COVID, post-COVID, now the economic uncertainty. So what are some of the key changes that you've seen for Canadians given how tumultuous the time has been?

[00:07:32] Tahir: Yes. I mean, it's interesting. When we first started this, it was hard to get away from, uh, some of those more macro issues that people were struggling with.

[00:07:40] Tahir: Certainly COVID, we started it before COVID, we launched it during COVID. So what we were seeing in terms of feelings of isolation, concerns about, obviously health and safety were big themes in those first few years. And then, you know, last year we saw again the financial uncertainty really, um, be a big factor in people's lives and, and whether or not, you know, they're gonna actually have enough to even, you know, survive, frankly.

[00:08:08] Tahir: This year what we saw was this interesting emerging theme that was through all the different, let's call them sub themes of problems and issues people were facing. So previously we would've had what I would call just, uh, various themes that made up the top problems people were facing. So you could think about the environment, financial situations people were in, their health and wellness, the healthcare system, and so on here in Canada.

[00:08:35] Tahir: This was the first year where we saw a common thread throughout all the different things that people were struggling with. And that was this, this notion of the pressure and the weight of needing to feel like you have to win in life. And so it was interesting to just see that there's this perspective out there that people just need to be better and who they are right now is not good enough.

[00:08:56] Tahir: And so, uh, when you think about what that means and you think about your own lives, frankly, everything from, being a better runner, you know, being a better parent, being a better employee or leader is a sense that like, we always have to be better because who we are right now is not good enough. And meeting expectations means that we're actually coming up short.

[00:09:18] Tahir: And so, you know, and I always think about this example of being better sleepers, as somebody who has struggled off and on with my sleep over my life. I know that there's very little you can do about your sleep, and yet we still have apps that tell us that we could be doing better. So, you know, I think it's getting to this point now where, and there's this quote that I always refer back to from a 23-year-old.

[00:09:40] Tahir: Her name is Sasha and she says, everyone's always, everyone always has to be self-improving. And just being yourself is not enough now. And you know, I think that's one of those quotes that just, when you think about, you know, how we at least try to lead the younger generations, or as parents, you try to help your children understand that who they are is

[00:09:59] Tahir: good enough, and they should be proud of who they are, and they should embrace who they are. And now there's this feeling of, actually no, as I am right now, I'm not good enough. And so there's this quest for betterment that is constantly driving people and as a result, they feel like they're always coming up short.

[00:10:14] Alison: It's an amazing finding. When you think like the quest for betterment on its surface and when you first hear it and think about the desire to improve, they all seem like positive, good, healthy things. But what the research is telling us, is that it's been taken to a point where we can't be content with what we have today and that's really unfortunate.

[00:10:28] Sarah: Yeah. It can go too far. Yeah.

[00:10:30] Sarah: Always trying to be better and never happy enough with today. And I'll add to what Tahir said as well. When we look at that longer lens of having done this for four years is a few years ago, we had circumstances in the world that were out of our control, and people knew that, and they were a little resigned to that, and it was upsetting.

[00:10:47] Sarah: But we've moved out of that and we can look at how Canadian's mindset is changing over, you know, the several years we've been doing this now. And you know, they came out of that swinging a little bit. Like, all right, it's been two years. I need something different. I need change. The world should be better.

[00:11:04] Sarah: Come on people. This has been long enough. That was a little bit more of this like big attitude about it last year and this year they're a little more focused on, okay, maybe not the big change I wanna see is as possible, and that's, that's okay. I still care about improving things and making the world better, but I need to see improvement in my life somewhere and I need to make it happen myself.

[00:11:27] Sarah: So what are the small things that I can control, right? I maybe can't control global events, but what can I do in my life, um, to impact my close world and focus on the things I can control? I still care about climate change. Maybe personally I can't do anything about the forest fires, but what can, can I do?

[00:11:45] Sarah: And just seeing that, like you said, we have that longer lens and seeing this evolution of the mindset of Canadians is really interesting.

[00:11:50] Alison: And also the appreciation that those little steps add up on an individual basis, on a family basis, on a community basis. There's such power.

[00:11:59] Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. Like the impact we can have on the lives of someone right close near us and that matters.

[00:12:05] Sarah: And that's good if the small things are not a failure. Oh, I didn't change this entire system. No, but you made someone's day better, right? Or you made your day a little better. And that is actually, yeah, how we'll get there.

[00:12:16] Alison: So what are some of the other key themes and issues and problems that Canadians are living with and struggling with right now?

[00:12:31] Sarah: so we talk about finance and we look into social relationships with friends and family, people having kids, relationships with parents are of course relevant for this age group of younger people. And obviously there's lots of digital world and online world and things we can explore and the bigger problems.

[00:12:48] Sarah: And then in the report, we really boil them down into to cluster them together in some themes and, I think the this higher level theme that we're seeing of this, the world is so competitive and I feel the need to be better, I have this weight of winning is probably most obvious in people's finances and in their careers right now.

[00:13:08] Sarah: Right? People feel there's only a certain amount to go around and now we're all kind of in competition with one another for it. And we get into in the report how that's affecting, of course, this age group's relationship with work, because of course that's something that is getting talked about a lot and it's a big part of their lives and how they're changing their perspective after many years of their experiences not giving them kind of what they expected they were gonna get out of it.

[00:13:38] Sarah: So there was the old kind of mantra of, you work hard and that will probably lead to success, and the majority of Canadians are really questioning that is true or just fully don't believe that that is true anymore. It kind of sounds like, you know, the reward for hard work is just more hard work. So they're trying to think about how can they change their relationship with work to get more out of it for what they're putting in, in a way that makes a lot of sense.

[00:14:08] Sarah: Right? Not leading to so much burnout, especially the younger generations, especially the Gen Z, who are maybe looking at some burned out millennials who might feel like it's a little too late to change. I don't know what else I could do, but Gen Z are looking at that going. Okay, that's not working for you.

[00:14:23] Sarah: You're doing all that and you still don't have a house, so maybe I'm gonna try and find something different to do. That's a really, I think, obvious place where that theme would come out, but it's really fascinating how we see it across so many different things, though. So this idea of competitiveness isn't just confined to money or jobs or even, I think,

[00:14:43] Sarah: the, you know, relatively obvious space of social media where people have that element of you need to present yourself a certain way and you need to look good. And there's this social competition, but we even see it extending into people's real life social lives as well. So real life interactions with friends and people you know, kind of are starting to have this undercurrent of being oddly performative.

[00:15:08] Sarah: They're very socially anxious, right? Did I do well? Did they judge me well, or did I fail and make myself look stupid and I embarrassed myself? And so this overarching feeling of competition and social anxiety we really see coming through of course, as well. And I think people have heard a little bit about the social anxiety that especially younger generations are experiencing.

[00:15:31] Sarah: Um, and so we really dive into what's going on with that, where that's coming from and what that's leading to.

[00:15:36] Tahir: And Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that stat was like, 73% of Gen Z feels social anxiety. I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot.

[00:15:43] Sarah: No, it is.

[00:15:44] Tahir: I remember that number being like surprisingly high

[00:15:48] Sarah: And it's going up, especially compared to last year.

[00:15:51] Sarah: Yeah. 73% of Gen Z say that there's sometimes, or always very nervous about what to say or how to interact socially. And it's, it's sad, right? Because these are just the moments when you're actually with a person and you're still kind of holding yourself back. You're still kind of separate from one another a little bit.

[00:16:11] Alison: That is such a shocking percentage and a really sad statement. Then if you overlay other research that's been done about the loneliness epidemic in Canada across all different age groups but it's particularly relevant for younger generations. So we have the loneliness pandemic combined with social stage fright, and then the hustle to nowhere, it feels like need to give our younger Canadians more hope and reasons to believe in opportunities and to truly be themselves.

[00:16:39] Sarah: A lot of it's coming from this idea of like me against the world, or they must be trying to get something out of me, right? Everyone's kind of in it for themselves. So, I am hesitant to be vulnerable with this person because they might use it against me.

[00:16:54] Tahir: Hey, just on that, it's always interesting to have these conversations because then you can reflect back on the findings, you know, perhaps in slightly different ways, and the weight of winning was the theme.

[00:17:03] Tahir: But you could probably also say the theme is burnout. Because there's such a pressure to not just be better, but to create this quality of life you, you believed was available to you or that you believed was promised to you in some way. But then when you think about the pressures that people are feeling at such a young age and they're not seeing it pay off, and then they all feel like they're kind of trying to get a piece of the same pie, it becomes this like competitive.

[00:17:31] Tahir: Nature of just, well, if you're winning, that means I'm losing. So that zero sum game, you know, sort of the thought where it's just like, well, I don't know if I necessarily wanna see that person doing better on social media because then it makes me look at my own life. It makes me feel inadequate and makes me feel like I'm not achieving some of the things that maybe I should be achieving.

[00:17:50] Tahir: And so it's kind of like cyclical. And then you see how in the hustle to nowhere, if my memory serves, I believe last year we, we talked about the, the side hustle culture. Like there was a time when that was actually seen as a bit of a badge of honour, you know. And it also kind of represented something different like, well, if I have something on the side, it's maybe a passion project or you know, it's a collaboration, it's an outlet for me that's on top of my, let's call it nine to five.

[00:18:16] Tahir: And now what we're seeing is, for Gen Z and even millennials -- I believe for millennials it's one in four, Gen Z it's one in three, have a second job. So it's moving beyond this "Oh my God, I'm envious that you have this passion project on the side. Maybe I should" to we actually need these second incomes because it's a way of being able to afford life.

[00:18:40] Tahir: Life's basics, frankly, not even nicer things in life or luxuries in life. It's basics. And so even that hustle culture now carries a different feeling and a, and a different perception for the younger people, which is like, I have to do this now. I don't want to necessarily do this, right?

[00:18:58] Sarah: Exactly. It's that evolution of what, 10 years ago or however long ago, with Rise and Grind and Girl Bossing, which I'm gonna start a Boy Bossing hashtag, um, and like, you know, hustle culture and rise and grind.

[00:19:11] Sarah: And they did that. They rose, they grinded, and it didn't... listen, for some people it works out right? There's always some people that can look at this and say, no, this did work for me. But we're talking a majority of Canadians are saying that feels like a bit of a lie. It feels like a trick. It feels like a trick to get me to work more.

[00:19:29] Sarah: I don't have this extra thing on the side because I'm trying to get ahead. I have something on the side because that's the world now because I need two jobs.

[00:19:38] Tahir: In order to afford basic groceries is what we heard from young Canadians. Like I, one quote, which is, I wish I could go to the grocery store and, and just get groceries and not worry about having enough.

[00:19:48] Tahir: And obviously we know there's varying degrees people are living through. I think 83% of people don't feel as though their hard work's gonna pay off. So, you know, it, it really moves the goalposts a bit further, you know, from where, where they were before for a lot of people.

[00:20:01] Alison: When you think of it from a Canadian perspective as well, it's like the other dynamic that's happening that it feels counter to rise and grind and all the hard work that so many Canadians are putting in every day, every week, is our productivity as a nation's gone way down.

[00:20:16] Alison: So if it doesn't feel like we're winning on either side of that equation.

[00:20:19] Tahir: Right. And they also don't see their hard work or their loyalty being, you know, appreciated or, or rewarded by employers, right? So when you hear of headlines like three to 5% of, of the total employee base being laid off or cuts here and so on,

[00:20:39] Tahir: or caps on promotions or whatever it might be. It's hard for young Canadians to look at the current environment and go, well, why should I even do this, because there is no loyalty in, in return, there's no longevity anymore. There's no joining one or two companies and sort of, you know, building your career over time.

[00:20:58] Tahir: And so, and, and the fact that they've also just seen layoffs in their own home, right? They've experienced it themselves. I believe it's like one in three have have experienced a loss of a job in their household. Right? So imagine again, if they're seeing this, whether it's their parents or, you know, depending on their age themselves.

[00:2114] Tahir: Like they're starting to see, again, the pressure that that has on finances as well. And it just, it continues to sort of build this perpetual cycle.

[00:21:23] Sarah: Someone said, why would I be loyal to some company that's not loyal to me? They'll replace me tomorrow. There's a little, you're gonna get yours, I'm gonna get mine.

[00:21:31] Sarah: So it's not that people don't wanna work, it's that they're updating where they're working and how they're working to maximize things for them, because they're thinking, if this company is gonna maximize things for themselves and I'm a number to them, great. I'll show up and I'll do my job. But then I have to have a certain distance with it.

[00:21:49] Sarah: Even for not only finances, but your self image and your worth and everything. Right? I can't put my whole identity in this job because the majority of Canadians think they'll just be, could easily just be replaced tomorrow at their job. And I think we think about in the context you're saying about the productivity in this country.

[00:22:04] Sarah: I think it's an important thing for us to think about when we're thinking about how we motivate these people, how we get the best work out of them because I think they would probably say, and I think the evidence would show that the old approach of, you're just not working hard enough, or more of this, they're a little, show me the money.

[00:22:22] Sarah: They're a little, show me the benefits right now, and that's okay. We can work with that. Right? We just need to adjust how we work with that. These are people who, they wanna work, they want things out of it, they buy into that, but they just wanna make sure it's working for them too.

[00:22:36] Tahir: And I think that's a big misperception of this younger generation, right?

[00:22:39] Tahir: That they're not hard workers and, and the truth of the matter is they are. And the evidence shows that not only in their willingness to, you know, put in the effort and the long hours, but the fact that they have second jobs, you know, while they're building careers. I wouldn't say we had that, or at least had that pressure or had that need to do that.

[00:22:59] Tahir: You know, obviously times were tight, you know, early on in your career, but not where you felt as though you needed a second job just to afford basics and groceries. So, and I would say obviously AI is not helping in that regard, you know? I think there, what we saw this year versus last year, I think last year there was still a lot of the unknown, and so people were really unsure of what this was, and there was probably more anxiety and concern over it than this year.

[00:23:22] Tahir: I think we're seeing, it's still for the most part, 50/50. I just think now we're starting to see people, you know, and for the most part it's, it's Generative AI tools like Chat GPT. But I think there's people that are like, no, this is interesting. It's helping me make, you know, it's helping me do things a bit faster, more efficiently.

[00:23:36] Tahir: It's, I feel a bit smarter as a result of this. And so there is some genuine optimism and, and I would say excitement around what this could become. But then on the flip side of that, there's still concern that at the end of the day, I'm gonna lose my job to AI or it's gonna be outsourced in a certain way, or you know.

[00:23:54] Tahir: So again, like it's, if that continues to compound, those fears and anxieties people have about just being easily replaced.

[00:24:01] Alison: So there's clearly no shortage of angst and very valid concerns and negative sentiment among Canadians right now. What are the opportunities for brands in that? Because brands can always be part of a solution if they understand how Canadians are really feeling.

[00:24:18] Tahir: I mean, that's always the great question, and, and we know, we always try to make sure that the report isn't always just about the doom and gloom. We just find it's, it's important to uncover the, the issues at hand so that we can then really hone in on and identify the ways that brands can be part of the solution.

[00:24:36] Tahir: You know, I'd say out of the gate, one of the big things is just frankly listening. And I know that might just sound a little trite, but the fact that the one step that all that continues to go up every year is the fact that Canadians don't believe brands understand what they're going through. And this year we learned that only 13% believe that brands have their best interests at heart.

[00:25:01] Tahir: And when you're almost in the single digits, I mean, that's, that's alarming. And when you think about, we, you know, we've been in enough market marketing symposiums to know that building relationships with your customers is the key to growth and long-term success and sustainability and so on. A core element of a relationship is that you believe the other person or party has your best interest at heart.

[00:25:27] Tahir: And so when you see that number so low and the fact that people just don't believe brands get what they're going through, just actively listening and demonstrating that you're listening to people and you're designing products and services around what people need versus just what you need to put out into the market.

[00:25:45] Tahir: I think is a, is a massive first step.

[00:25:47] Sarah: While you're talking, I'm thinking about the, a little now over-dated, but the "Okay, Boomer" trend of like, okay, you don't get it, and you can kind of almost take that idea and apply it to brands a little bit. The idea of that's, you're showing me this, okay, you don't get what I'm going through at all.

[00:26:05] Sarah: You're just telling me, oh, I need to save for retirement do I? Cool. We'll get right on that. Like that's not a practical thing in my life right now. So you're clearly signalling to me that you don't actually get what I have going on, and so I'm gonna kind of disregard everything else you might be saying, even if it is beneficial or helpful, and it's not necessarily about like speaking in lingo, but just any of that,

[00:26:29] Sarah: Okay, they get it at all is a bit of a, will I pay attention to this or not, right? Because we know younger generations are really good at ignoring ads, are really good at ignoring brands. And so there's a quick, do they get me? Or are they just doing the same thing they've always done? They're talking to someone from a different time that isn't relevant for me in my life.

[00:26:49] Sarah: And it's not just about brands. It's not that brands are failing people so catastrophically on their own. I know from the research, it's a very skeptical environment in general. Like we said, people aren't even trusting those conversations they're having with their friends entirely. We hear from them

[00:27:07] Sarah: There's a lot of people making promises. No, I am doing something to try and help you. It's like, no, you're not. You're doing something to help yourself, and you're disguising it as trying to help me. So what is the way that we can help overcome that really, really skeptical environment that all brands are operating in?

[00:27:25] Sarah: Right? I mean, the simplest way is show them, don't tell them. Canadians understand, companies, organizations need to make money, and they're not against that by any stretch of the means. It's not, you can't operate, how dare you have profit? It's a little more, but can they feel like there's balance? What's the balance for where I feel like I'm getting something out of it?

[00:27:45] Sarah: And does it feel too one-sided? That's like the first passive judgment is that layer of skepticism and we can overcome it as long as we don't ignore it. How can we make those connections and show up for people in a way that feels authentic and they say, yeah, that's my life. I am not the parent in the giant house with everything going on and that wonderful two cars in the garage and this and that.

[00:28:04] Sarah: It's aspirational, but it's not my life, so it doesn't necessarily speak to me. So things like that, how are we showing up for them?

[00:28:10] Tahir: I think it's embracing their reality. Even reflecting it. We talked about the typical more conventional path to success, or what does a successful life look like? I mean, this younger generation has given up on that being available to them or attainable for them already.

[00:28:27] Tahir: There's a stat in the report, I think it's 43% of Gen Z have given up on the careers they wanted or having the job that they thought they would have, or, you know, basically at such a young age, they've already determined that that's probably not possible. If you then extend that to things like owning a home or having this career that I thought I was going to have as a result of my degree or all of these things that they're, they're now rewriting their own path to success, and so brands just need to reflect that and not always talk in terms of like what might have been more realistic

[00:29:02] Tahir: 10, 20, 30 years ago. How do you even depict those scenarios in advertising? How do brands innovate and design products and offer services that cater to this new path, this new approach, and not just looking at, well, when you're 65 and you retire, and so on, because retirement for one, is not even a, a word in their vernacular anymore.

[00:29:26] Sarah: We all wanna be optimistic, right? We wanna present happiness to people. And so I think brands sometimes get afraid of engaging with the reality because they think it's either, I get sucked down into the darkness and I have to be making like a big emotional speech and saying things about that world. And it's, oh, if I say anything bad, it's a negative tone and I wanna be happy.

[00:29:49] Sarah: I wanna talk about the nice things and I wanna present, um, optimism to the world. It's not one or the other. Because I think with this group, when you present just the, Hey, isn't it great how you know X, Y, and Z can help? It doesn't feel as real to them and it's okay when we connect with a little bit of the difficulty

[00:30:10] Sarah: they have, just a little bit to help show them how we can help them get out of it. Feels much more real and they connect much more to it than just the, Hey, here's this great thing on the other side, which is, I'm, I'm obviously presenting extremes to illustrate the point, but if we think of the brands that are connecting most with people, they're acknowledging the reality, and it's not depressing people because they know that that's their reality right now.

[00:30:37] Sarah: It's not, oh, yeah, never occurred to me that I'm really upset about X, Y, and Z. It's, I am already, I feel seen that makes me trust them more when they say they can make it better.

[00:30:47] Alison: The other benefit of taking that approach is obviously showing empathy, actually gaining credibility with the people you're talking to and for the people that you're marketing to.

[00:30:57] Alison: It helps them understand that, you know what, I'm not in it alone. There are other people around who are also struggling through this, and maybe there are ways that we can come together. Maybe I don't need to be as down on myself as I am.

[00:31:09] Tahir: Maybe Sarah said this, but I think that that came out really loud and clear the theme of the need to win.

[00:31:15] Tahir: Because it's also then about the competitiveness you have with your, with your inner circle as well, right? So it's like, now you're not just competing against those job job applicants. You're competing in life against your friends and your family and so on. It can start to make you feel as though you are on your own a little bit in life, um, which can be a scary place to be.

[00:31:35] Alison: Yes, and the whole social stage fright trend that came out of HumanKind this year that people aren't feeling comfortable and truly being themselves. That just really highlights the degree of this issue and the need as marketers to really acknowledge what Canadians are going through and try to help find solutions. Now, I know you also did a deep dive on newcomers to Canada this year, and I'd love for you to share some of your findings.

[00:31:57] Alison: I know when you presented at the CMA Case for Canada, we had a number of newcomers in the audience and a couple of them came up to you afterwards, literally in tears saying, I feel so seen and I'm so happy to know that it's not just me. So resonated not just with the broader marketing profession, but with the actual newcomers to Canada.

[00:32:15] Alison: So very curious to hear some of those findings.

[00:32:19] Sarah: That's a great illustration of what you just said. Wait, it isn't just me and, and I feel connected now, hearing that it's other people, I thought it was, thought it was just me. So in the report we have a whole chapter on people who are new to Canada and we go into how do each of the themes in the rest of the report show up for them and how, what does that mean for them?

[00:32:37] Sarah: But something that I found really interesting is we looked at a wide range of when people arrived in Canada. So we looked at people who had just arrived in the past year, two to three years, up to 10 years plus to look at not only what is it like when they first get here, but what does it look like a couple years later, three years later, and what does that journey and evolution look like for them?

[00:33:00] Sarah: In a lot of ways, and I think the thing that newcomers connect with is it gets worse before it gets better. So, you know, when you first arrive here, that's a big change. That's a big move, and you expect it to be difficult. They expect, okay, I don't know very many people. My job is new, my home is new.

[00:33:23] Sarah: Everything is new. I'm gonna work really, really hard. This is maybe the worst they'll get. And then in a lot of ways, it's two years later, three years later, and they're like, I don't feel any better. I don't feel like I have more of a community than I used to have. They're laid off at a much higher rate than the rest of Canada.

[00:33:42] Sarah: So many of them within those first couple years of being here, have lost their jobs. So they've had an experience economically that has been very difficult for them. I don't know how Canada's selling itself to the rest of the world, but a lot of people do talk about their economic expectations were different than when they got here.

[00:33:59] Sarah: After they've been here for a while, they start to match how the rest of Canada feels, which is, Hey, wait, there was a promise here that isn't quite paying off, but it does seem like that's not what they expected when they got here. Yeah. It's a couple years in and it's not better. It's harder. I'm still living in a basement or I still only know a couple people from maybe the country that I was from.

[00:34:21] Sarah: It does start to get better after that if they stick with it a bit. But last year in the news, there was this talk about a very high percentage of newcomers were thinking about leaving Canada. I can tell you why now. The difficulties in their lives, like it's three, four years in and it's still really hard and they still feel very alone.

[00:34:40] Tahir: And if you, if you think about what we, we started with in this convo around the pressure, right, that people are feeling and the pressure to succeed or create a life that is quote unquote seen as successful or however you want to call it, you know, they come here with that added pressure of I made this massive leap in my life to create a better life for myself and, and most likely a family that maybe wasn't able to come with you.

[00:35:05] Tahir: And so when that doesn't work out the way you planned, and then perhaps you're seeing people back home where you came from perhaps living a better life, starts to really compound that feeling of, I actually. I failed to some degree. And so, and that's not obviously why you would make the sacrifices that new to Canada make.

[00:35:25] Tahir: But then at the same time, you can see that resilience, right? Because they do stick with it and they do put in the effort and the sacrifices. And so, you know, I think much like young Canadians. Our big takeaway for this year was just the resilience that they're showing and the grittiness and the strength that they have to continue to push despite the fact that they feel as though the world around them is changing and not always for the better.

[00:35:49] Alison: It takes such grit and such bravery to literally pick up your entire life and move to a new country. So you're right, it absolutely is around confidence and self-belief and wanting to create a better future. Now, you also have your second year of being able to compare Canadian findings with the U.S. and this year, more than ever, it would be fascinating to see what emerged.

[00:36:09] Alison: So I'd love you to share some of the differences that you're seeing and also any similarities.

[00:36:14] Tahir: I think what was most surprising was how similar the findings and the data was from across, across markets. So you know, a lot of what Canadians are feeling, a lot of what young Canadians are feeling is similar to how young Americans are feeling and new to America are feeling.

[00:36:29] Tahir: And so there were a couple bigger differences, but overall there was a lot that was similar.

[00:36:36] Sarah: We all know how much cultural sharing and, you know, entertainment sharing there is across borders and how much what they have going on really spreads out and affects other people. And we're obviously here on this side of the world with them.

[00:36:51] Sarah: So when you're at the high level of like, ultimately what are you really concerned about are fundamentally quite similar, right? We're all people, they're not fundamentally different. They know the Canadian dream is a little different than the American dream, but there's some overlap. But then when you see those differences, when you start to move down into what are they doing about it or how is it manifesting, or what kind of solutions do they want?

[00:37:14] Sarah: It was really interesting, especially last year, um, when I was in all the U.S. research, with the Canadians, they might disagree on solutions. But more or less, we all agree what the problems are, versus when we were talking to the Americans, I was like, oh, you don't agree what the problems are. We're further back in the process here.

[00:37:38] Sarah: You know, someone will say that their top concern is X, Y, and Z. Someone will say, that doesn't even bother me at all. I'm concerned about this. So young people in America have much more concern about their physical safety, going to school and being in large groups than people in Canada do. The number two concern for Gen Z in America in last year's study was gun violence and physical safety.

[00:37:59] Sarah: And then there's many small differences, right? So ultimately they have similar directions of opinions about social media for example. There are some concerns how it's influencing, who's doing the influencing. But then when you look at the actual numbers, Canadians are more concerned about that than Americans.

[00:38:18] Sarah: Young Americans will still say that, but it's to a lesser degree. They spend a little more time on social media and on their phones than Canadians do. So it's about those differences that, sometimes when we're talking about it, it can be okay, that these are similarities. And sometimes it's like, no, no, no, this, this nuance does make that difference.

[00:38:34] Sarah: And that's why we do the two different studies. Is kind of what are those fundamental human things or things that are affecting all of us? And then really, when it comes down to it, what are the ways that that we're different and that that matters?

[00:38:44] Alison: Clearly there is wonderful fodder for marketers and brands coming to the HumanKind study and Tahir, earlier in the conversation you shared

[00:38:52] Alison: the biggest opportunity is really to listen and become more aware of how Canadians are feeling and be able to really understand and then empathize with Canadians. What else would you recommend for our listeners in how they can action the HumanKind study moving forward?

[00:39:11] Sarah: I think the biggest single risk for brands right now is just to not be relevant, is to just focus too inward.

[00:39:21] Sarah: Focus on what you are doing and how you wanna present yourself to the world, and how you wanna be seen and realize that that's from 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's, it's, they're ignoring you. They're not fighting back against you necessarily. But I think kind of the biggest thing we're up against is there's so much vying for everyone's attention and we just won't get seen.

[00:39:44] Sarah: They're doing very quick - is this relevant to me or not? So that next piece is what is most relevant for your brand and what you are doing, and how can we do the same thing we've done here for all of Canada, for your audiences, your consumers, so that you can be showing up for them the way they need to see you.

[00:40:05] Tahir: I would just jump in to say the big reason why we did this was to really identify the problems that need to be solved. Obviously, not every problem. But when we always find the biggest and brightest and more, most compelling ideas that we come up with, they clearly help solve a problem. And you know that that's where we can't shy away from what these problems are.

[00:40:32] Tahir: And we can't say we don't know them or don't understand them because that's what this work is intended to unearth. And so I would say that's the big push. And we have client partners who have literally taken insights or data points from this study and said, we need to do something about that. And I did another podcast just all around the Just Talk campaign we did with Bell that really went at the loneliness epidemic from last year's study, because it just, it struck the, the leads over there as this is something that we can help with.

[00:41:01] Tahir: As a brand, credibly. You know, and I think that would be the second big piece, is that credibility piece, that authenticity piece. So we have the a point in the, in the report around the A word, you know, and not wanting to always throw around authenticity because to be your authentic self can sometimes just feel like it's, it's an obvious statement, but you know, again, the point that it's making is - know who you are as a brand.

[00:41:25] Tahir: Don't try and, and be something you're not. But then, be transparent in what you are trying to do and how you're trying to help, and then walk the talk, you know? So I think that's the big thing is like, so when you think about innovation pipelines and products and services that you're creating and designing against, this is an opportunity to design against problems that exist that people are struggling with, that have an impact on their lives.

[00:41:51] Tahir: And you can do something about it and solve it. And in doing so, you create that relationship, that bond with your consumers that will will, you know, last the test of time, hopefully.

[00:42:03] Alison: Before I let you go, one last question. So I'd love you both to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

[00:42:11] Alison: You both have very different pathways, um, and experiences in marketing. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your answer.

[00:42:18] Tahir: I feel like I'm gonna say the same thing I did last year. For me, it was always just about hard work, but I'm actually gonna change that now in context of what we've been talking about today.

[00:42:25] Tahir: But just listening. Like I, I was fortunate to have some really great mentors throughout my career and in, in addition to just, you know, I'm always told, put your head down, work hard. You know, I think what we're learning in this study is just putting your head down and working hard is not always going to help you achieve what you wanna achieve, but I've always found

[00:42:45] Tahir: really listening to people's advice and direction and feedback, whether it was positive or more constructive and never stopping that. Like I've never, no matter where I get to, what level I get to or what have you, you know. I listen to, I find Sarah brilliant and fascinating and I learn something from Sarah every time we speak.

[00:43:07] Tahir: And so I think to me, that's been something that I have always done and will continue to do, uh, in my career.

[00:43:13] Alison: That's great advice. You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter if you're a student. It doesn't matter if you're a CEO. That is always part of your career success and your career journey.

[00:43:21] Sarah: Over to you.

[00:43:22] Sarah: I think maybe I'm considered someone who followed a less traditional career path. I think that's probably more of the future and traditional career paths are becoming maybe a little less common. I think most of the people I know who are successful and happy at work have had winding career paths because they followed what really interested them and excited them

[00:43:43] Sarah: rather than pigeonholing themselves into a particular job title or a particular idea of a job that, you know, they fall in love with the idea or they look at something and that I'm gonna have that job title in a certain number of years, or I'm gonna work in that industry in a certain number of years, instead of focus on what you really enjoy.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Chase your passions a little bit, but also it's work. We know, maybe it's not passions. Just find some things that you like and find the roles that you can do that allow you to do those. And take every opportunity. You might have an opportunity that comes up that doesn't seem like it's perfectly aligned with a linear path that you have in your mind, but you're gonna be collecting those experiences and that's what you're going to bring to the table later on.

[00:44:30] Sarah: And it's, it's follow the things you love. And hone the skills that you're good at. I also have one piece of very practical advice for people that I give them as well, which is learn to write. Um, I think very practically, as a professional now, um, and as someone who was a teaching assistant at the University of Toronto,

[00:44:39] Sarah: for many, many years, and I've read many, many essays. Learn to write. Writing is not my natural forte. It's probably the thing I struggled with most in my life. But I'm here today because of a report I helped write. I took extra classes when I was in undergrad to learn how to write better. Because you're an ideas person and you think I have great ideas.

[00:45:13] Sarah: Your idea is kind of only worth as much as you're able to communicate it.

[00:45:17] Tahir: Can I throw one build on that, that brings it back to the study? Which is, with AI and with tools like Chat GPT. We do have a point made in the report about the loss of critical thinking and original thinking, so I would encourage all of the younger people who hopefully are listening to this to challenge yourself to get your own

[00:45:43] Tahir: thinking down and write your own thinking out. Because when you're just gonna use Chat GPT to arrive at those ways in, you're gonna lose the ability to think critically and originally, which is what ideas really need to thrive.

[00:46:00] Sarah: You know, it might help you get the grade in the class in that month, but when you're out in the world, it's not about that anymore.

[00:46:08] Sarah: You wanna stand out from a sea of same. So yeah, you can use all these tools to help you, but new ideas and that critical thinking element will always have a case. So yeah, for sure. I agree with Tahir on that. There's tools that are helpful, but make sure you're learning how to express yourself and form your own ideas,

[00:46:25] Sarah: and have unique ideas.

[00:46:26] Alison: Absolutely outstanding advice. Thank you both and thank you for a really great conversation.

[00:46:30] Tahir: Our pleasure. Thanks for having us again, Alison.

[00:46:38] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Traditional teaching methods are changing, and the skills future marketers need are evolving faster than universities can adapt. How can post-secondary institutions prepare students for a profession where change is the only constant? In today's episode, CEO of the CMA Alison Simpson interviews Kyle Murray, Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle's approach: Embrace experiential learning, integrate Generative AI, and prioritize uniquely human skills such as adaptability and emotional intelligence. His most important insight? Cultivate a 'forever student' mindset - because in marketing, the most valuable skill is learning.

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:26] Alison: For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Kyle Murray, the Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle took over as Dean in July of 2024 after a distinguished career at the University of Alberta School of Business, where he served as the acting Dean with a PhD in marketing and psychology.

[00:00:44] Alison: Kyle brings deep expertise in innovation and behavioural change, utilizing experimental psychology and behavioural economics to better understand the choices that people make. He's consulted with clients in government and Fortune 50 companies and also been a founder, advisor investor in a series of startups.

[00:01:02] Alison: In his new role as Dean, Kyle is focused on expanding the university's leadership and experiential learning, also in engaging alumni and enriching a culture of innovation that encourages risk-taking and challenges convention. With generative AI and other technological disruptions reshaping how we educate future marketers and the skills that they'll need to succeed, this culture is even more important than ever before.

[00:01:25] Alison: Kyle's recent transition from Alberta to Ontario has also given him some fresh insights into regional differences in our Canadian education system, as well as their impact on business talent development. And this is one of the many topics that we will discuss today. Kyle, I'm really looking forward to a great conversation, and it's an absolute pleasure to share the mic with you today on CMA Connect.

[00:01:46] Kyle: Thanks, Alison. I'm really excited to be here. I'm a big fan of CMA and my first time on the podcast, so yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

[00:01:53] Alison: Kyle, I'd love to start by hearing your story. First, what drew you to higher education and teaching the marketing profession?

[00:01:59] Kyle: Yeah, I think it's just, I love learning and I really enjoy the university environment. I'm a researcher at heart and I like the scientific method.

[00:02:08] Kyle: This time of year, especially, the university is just such an exciting and energizing place to be, so that's really what drew me into it. I actually started my career as an entrepreneur. I was involved in a few startups, and that sounds better than it is. What really happened was I graduated in the early 1990s with an undergraduate degree in psychology.

[00:02:28] Kyle: And I could not find a job, so I had to start my own, make my own job, start my own business. But that, that worked out well because after a few different endeavours, I was able to sell them and that allowed me to go back to get a PhD. So I suddenly found myself with some time and a little bit of money and flexibility, and so I went back to get a PhD.

[00:02:48] Kyle: I still wasn't entirely sure what I'd do. I knew I liked research. I didn't know how I'd like teaching in the university environment. I taught my first class. I fell in love with it. I got a great job offer here in Southern Ontario, actually at the Ivey School at Western Ontario, and that's where I started my career.

[00:03:04] Kyle: And I've been in academia ever since. Marketing in particular, I think I was drawn to just because I find people fascinating. My, my background was in psychology as well as marketing. So just consumers and consumer decision making, why they do what they do. I still find it fascinating and I'll probably never get tired of asking questions about that.

[00:03:25] Alison: I love that, in many ways, necessity is the mother of invention. You graduated in a challenging economy and created your own path, which is amazing. I also love that you've got that entrepreneurial and builder mentality and experience, and then came back to higher education, because I think having that real world experience is so powerful for educating the marketers of tomorrow as well.

[00:03:49] Kyle: I agree. I think it's a helpful mindset to have, but I have to say sometimes it's a mindset that bumps up against the bureaucracy that is a large university or even a mid-sized university. It can be challenging at times as you wanna move quickly, and one of the things I've really had to learn is patience.

[00:04:04] Kyle: Things don't move as fast in a big organization as they do when it's a small shop. And I think I've learned that over time to some extent. But it's still certainly a challenge.

[00:04:13] Alison: Before joining the CMA I spent four years in the startup world. It really is about evolve or die. So I can absolutely relate to needing to relearn some patience when I came back to a bigger organization for sure.

[00:04:25] Alison: So I know you've worked in Ireland and Australia as well as Canada, so I'd love you to share any differences that you've seen and how marketing's taught internationally compared to how we teach it here.

[00:04:35] Kyle: Yeah, good question. I was also in France for a little while, but I was at INSEAD, so it was an English program, which luckily for me 'cause

[00:04:42] Kyle: my French is terrible. So that was, I had enough trouble just getting groceries. I wouldn't want to teach in French, but there's small differences regionally for sure. Like I would say both Ireland and France, you get some of that European flavour. There's a different perspective on the world, certainly geopolitically, and Australia too, a little bit more of a Commonwealth and maybe Asian influences there.

[00:05:05] Kyle: But t the end of the day, whenever I taught marketing or taught people about marketing in any of these places, it just comes down to the same thing that we'd always talk about anywhere is, you need to understand your customer and then find some way to create some compelling value for them. And there's some, there's definitely some cultural pieces there that are different.

[00:05:23] Kyle: What might be compelling in Ireland is different than what's compelling in Canada some of the time. But at the core it's just trying to understand people.

[00:05:30] Alison: That's a great reminder that as much as the world around us is different, as much as technology and other things are changing, how we market the basics are still mission critical.

[00:05:40] Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think we get challenged sometimes with changes in the world, whether it's tariff policies or new technologies, and it is easy to get caught up in those things because they're so important and they're so immediately critical. But we're still very much people-driven.

[00:05:57] Kyle: Commerce is still people-driven, it's relationship-driven. It's that understanding people, understanding customers, understanding clients, why they buy what they're buying, what's gonna motivate them, that's really universal, at least in the western world. Might be a little bit different if you get into the Middle East or Asia.

[00:06:13] Kyle: But in the Western world it, it's pretty much the same.

[00:06:17] Alison: Now after a very successful decade teaching at the Alberta School of Business, what attracted you to make the move to Waterloo last year?

[00:06:24] Kyle: This is gonna be a bit of a biased a response, but really I'd known about the Lazaridis School for a while, the Bachelor of Business Administration Program,

[00:06:32] Kyle: the BBA program in particular, is truly one of the best in the world. They're global leaders here in undergraduate education and especially experiential education, and I thought this was really important. My view was the future of education in business, and, but maybe in other fields too is experiential.

[00:06:50] Kyle: It's more and more learning by doing, so we can adapt quickly. We learn some of those people skills that we need in organizations. Lazaridis is very good at that. So it's a big part of what attracted me. I have to say that some of it is also just timing. Both my daughters were at an age where they could be independent and that freed my wife and I up to consider making a move.

[00:07:11] Kyle: I also, I always liked Ontario and I like Southern Ontario and I've enjoyed being, close to Toronto, but also having the tech community around here in Waterloo, there's just I think a lot of exciting things going on. And when it comes to the students themselves, we have really strong demand for this program, but we're also really good at placing students.

[00:07:31] Kyle: And so if you're a Dean, it's nice to come to a place where, we had 12,000 people apply for 1500 spots last year. And when they graduate, we place 97% of them. So that is a foundation. Really makes my job a lot easier. And so that was a big part of why I was drawn here.

[00:07:50] Alison: The proof points are incredibly compelling.

[00:07:52] Alison: That job placement rate, gotta be one of the best in the world, so congratulations for that.

[00:07:56] Kyle: Yeah. And so just continue that plug maybe a little bit is, one of the things that, that I worry about, being in a university setting is youth unemployment in general has been creeping up. It's, somewhere north now, 15%, which is not good.

[00:08:09] Kyle: I mentioned I graduated in the nineties, it was 18 or 19% at the time. It, it can set a lot of people back in their careers. I think one of the things that's really great about business schools and our school in particular is at the end of the day, we are pretty good at getting people jobs.

[00:08:24] Kyle: We're fairly responsive to what industry wants and the talent that we develop. And yeah, 97, 98% get jobs and it's even higher in co-op, it's 99% plus. So I think that's an important part of what we do.

[00:08:36] Alison: I can see why you have the level of demand you have for the program too.

[00:08:39] Kyle: Yeah. It doesn't hurt, right?

[00:08:40] Kyle: Ultimately students, they wanna learn, but they want to see the light at the end of the tunnel too, and parents as well. And so yeah, that really helps with demand. Of course.

[00:08:49] Alison: Absolutely. So now that you're just over a year in Ontario, I'd love to hear what differences have you seen or what surprised you about Ontario's education system compared to Alberta's?

[00:09:01] Kyle: Yeah. Because I started my career in Ontario as a professor, I had a fairly good sense of how things were here. It certainly, it's a great place to be. I think close to Toronto, there's a lot of really interesting jobs for graduates. There's also enough good business schools, even great business schools, that it's very competitive, which makes us all a little bit better.

[00:09:21] Kyle: But the one thing that did surprise me that was different from when I was here, 15, 16 years ago, was grade inflation at the high school level. And some of that might be legitimate because students today are pretty impressive. But it means that something like 30% of the applications to university now, in Ontario, are from students that have an average in the nineties, and that makes it really difficult to select.

[00:09:46] Kyle: Who are the good students? I joke sometimes with our alumni who are senior executives, there's a whole bunch of CEOs with grades in the eighties, future CEOs with grades in the eighties that we're turning down. I'd love to be able to accept, but the grade inflation at the high school level in Ontario is high.

[00:10:02] Kyle: There's a high percentage of the class comes out with good grades.

[00:10:06] Alison: Definitely is a surprise to me to hear that. And when I think about the number of friends I have who talk about their kids getting nineties, I've always thought there's no way I'd get into university today. 'cause I certainly didn't have a 96 or 97 average.

[00:10:20] Kyle: Yeah, I mean, when I was in high school, if there was somebody who had an average in the nineties, it was one kid and they were brilliant and working really hard. And a lot of really good students that were getting into university were in the eighties. I think one difference between Alberta and Ontario,

[00:10:37] Kyle: part of the reason grade inflation wasn't as severe in Alberta is because the province has a standardized set of exams. So in each of the major subjects, there's a provincial exam you have to take. Everybody takes it if they're gonna get through those courses, and it's worth quite a bit. When I took it, it was probably 50% of your grade.

[00:10:54] Kyle: I think now maybe it's 30% of your grade. And if you as a teacher have class grades that are really offside with your test grades, people are gonna ask questions and so that, that helps keep grade inflation down a little bit. Not entirely. There's still some, but I think it's, it helps a little.

[00:11:11] Alison: Now, I know you recently co-authored an article on the important role that business schools are playing in Ontario's economy so can you share with our listeners some of your thoughts on this?

[00:11:19] Kyle: I'd mentioned already youth unemployment is at a fairly high level, 15, maybe 16% right now. And even in some really traditionally strong careers like software engineering, computing science, we're seeing jobs disappear.

[00:11:34] Kyle: Other places that have, are traditionally popular careers, medicine and law, they're hard to get into, but also there aren't that many jobs when you get out, so they have to be somewhat constrained. The reality is there's a lot of jobs in the business world, from accounting to finance, to marketing, to supply chain management.

[00:11:52] Kyle: And so that's what we really have been good at. We've placed 98 or percent or so of the students. And so part of what I was writing about, and I should say that the article was co-written with Detlev Zwick, who's the Dean at the Schulich School at York University. Part of what we were writing about is just, there's a lot of talk about the importance of STEM jobs and jobs in technology and healthcare, and those are important fields, but we probably don't talk enough about business, and I think

[00:12:21] Kyle: the opportunities in business are probably broader in scope than they are in healthcare or STEM. Just, you can work in technology, you can work in healthcare, you can work in almost any area of business or not-for-profit or government requires the kinds of skills that we teach. So part of, I think the argument that we were making is we just really need to give more attention to what business schools are doing and the success we're having in finding students jobs and starting companies.

[00:12:49] Kyle: And it, you know, encouraging people to go on to other things. Some go on to be lawyers, some go on to science careers. But I think those basic skills, whether it's reading a financial statement or putting together a marketing plan, are super valuable across a large range of careers. And so that's essentially what we are arguing is, don't forget about us.

[00:13:09] Kyle: We're working hard, doing a good job. Our students are very successful. We wanna make sure that, not so much for the schools themselves, but for students in high school or even other programs in university, thinking about where their careers can go. We can play a big part in that and in lots of different ways.

[00:13:25] Kyle: Not necessarily just an undergraduate degree or a traditional MBA, but all kinds of training. Even if what you need to learn is just a little bit about finance or a little bit about marketing. Those are the kinds of things that that we do, and we do them very well.

[00:13:39] Alison: Now, building on that, there's no doubt that the marketing profession is undergoing absolutely tectonic shifts and Gen AI is a prime example, but certainly not the only example.

[00:13:49] Alison: So how are universities adapting to meet this challenge and really ensure that students are gonna graduate with the skills that they need, especially when those skills are evolving quickly?

[00:13:59] Kyle: Yeah, that's a good question. That's one that we wrestle with all the time. I can tell you from my time as a professor and some of my colleagues, it was nice to teach a course that was more or less the same year to year for a couple of years.

[00:14:11] Kyle: When we first, you know e-commerce was first rising on the scene becoming an important part of marketing and social media was part of marketing. You could see professors sort of struggling to keep up with all the changes. Facebook's updating its algorithm all the time, and the details of how you'd actually implement something on those platforms was changing.

[00:14:30] Kyle: So I think that keeping up with the changes that have been going on in marketing or elsewhere is challenging. What we try to teach students is to be adaptable. I think experiential learning, having the opportunity to work in teams, to work with different types of technology, to try different things, to do some of those things under a little bit of pressure and a little bit of stress,

[00:14:51] Kyle: that's helpful, and that's where we put a lot of emphasis on experiential learning. I also think being digital from kind of day one right away, getting immersed in technology, encouraged to use those tools, having experience with it, which to be honest, you don't have to do with most students these days.

[00:15:06] Kyle: Most of them come to university with very strong technical skills, social media skills way beyond my own. They're, they've been doing it their whole lives, so they're pretty good at it. But then the other two things, which are fairly new to universities and new to business schools, but we do put a lot more emphasis on trying to make sure students are resilient and adaptable and have a good sense of how to manage their own wellbeing.

[00:15:31] Kyle: They have some of that empathy and emotional intelligence they're gonna need when they get into these roles. Those human skills, those are some of the things that I suspect will survive as being incredibly important, even as technology continues to improve. On the flip side, some of the technical skills might be decreasing a little over the next few years in value and see some of the things that Gen AI is already doing, some of the ability to automate certain tasks, whether it's writing or design or coding.

[00:16:01] Kyle: And so my perspective on that is we need to right away start teaching students to partner with that technology. We can't be afraid of it. We have to make sure we use it even though it can be scary. And there's certainly some challenges for universities and yeah, how do we make sure people aren't cheating?

[00:16:17] Kyle: How do we make sure our evaluation methods are testing students and not testing the machines? So there's, I don't wanna minimize the challenge in any way, but I think there's some things we can do and it really is around making sure we immerse people in technology right away, and we put a lot of focus on those human skills.

[00:16:36] Alison: Earlier in our conversation, we talked about the importance of basics, so while Gen AI and other innovations are certainly changing how we do it, understanding the basics continues to be important. And there are some people globally that think this might be a time where the four Ps of marketing might be redefined.

[00:16:56] Alison: What are your thoughts on that?

[00:16:58] Kyle: Oh, that's a good question. My whole career people have talked about, you know, should we teach the four Ps? Should that really be at the core of marketing? I know 20 years ago, there were a few universities in the U.S. who moved entirely to a curriculum based on relationship marketing, kind of CRM driven systems, which maybe it makes a little less sense today than it did back then, but I think it is a tough question.

[00:17:23] Kyle: There's always going to be challenges to, how do we conceptualize broadly what marketers do? To me, that's what the four Ps are reasonably helpful with in an introductory class. You wanna think broadly about what marketers do, but I think it, it is hard to fit the importance of relationships into the four Ps and some aspects of what we can do now with technology don't fit in as well.

[00:17:46] Kyle: So I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of curriculums, we won't move away from that. We're still gonna teach some of the other classic models like the BCG matrix and those kinds of things, but we're probably gonna have to supplement that with a bit more of a nuanced focus as well. And that's gonna include things that are changing fast.

[00:18:06] Kyle: And again, that's a challenge for universities. We're not known for being really fast at adapting, but we're getting there, especially in business schools. You have to give a lot of credit to the faculty who are willing to put themselves out there and be a little uncomfortable and take some risks.

[00:18:21] Kyle: Maybe not everybody, but most faculty members are and that's good. Prior to say the, let's say the pandemic as kind of a turning point, but prior to that, the history of university teaching was chalkboards to overheads, to PowerPoint, but not a lot else changed. And then all of a sudden we're using all kinds of technology and we're faced with all kinds of new technologies that directly affect student learning.

[00:18:44] Kyle: I see that as an exciting time, but it's certainly a challenging time as well.

[00:18:47] Alison: In many ways I think that there might be a fifth P of marketing building on what you're saying that's all around people.

[00:18:53] Kyle: Yeah. And maybe that always should have been there. Already in our conversation, it's come up a few times how important it is to understand people and have good emotional intelligence and those kinds of softer skills.

[00:19:03] Kyle: I think that's always been important, but it's probably even more important today. So maybe, or maybe we need a different conceptual structure entirely. That'll be tough to do, okay, because we're all used to one. My view of it still is, it doesn't hurt to talk about the four Ps as a way of thinking about what marketers do, but it clearly is no longer a comprehensive, complete system for thinking about what marketers do.

[00:19:25] Kyle: So either, yeah, we have to adapt it. Maybe there's a, another P, some people use other acronyms. But at the end of the day, I think it still is going to come down to understanding your customers and creating value for them. And we can conceptualize that in a few different ways.

[00:19:41] Alison: Now from an educational perspective, you're dealing with two competing challenges.

[00:19:45] Alison: You've got students using Gen AI for their work, which as you said earlier, you should encourage because that's part of today's reality. But that can make traditional evaluation difficult, and you also need to ensure that they're AI literate for their career. I know it's early days, but how are you navigating this paradox?

[00:20:01] Kyle: So the vast majority of students are actually super ethical and try really hard not to cross any lines. There's a small group that will, take advantage of every tool or opportunity they can to find an easier path. The real problem with Gen AI, you kind of summed it up exactly right, which is we really want them to learn how to use it because we want them to go out into the world with the skills to be able to apply these new tools to be more productive at the work they're going to be doing.

[00:20:29] Kyle: But those same tools really make things like a take home essay no longer feasible for us. Because I still think a good writer is better than what a Gen AI will write. The problem is the weaker writers, it will pull everybody up to that kind of, I don't know, C+, B-range. And it's really tempting if you're time-pressed to use it to solve a calculus problem or to answer a question

[00:20:54] Kyle: you might have in, I don't know, an HR class or to, do something creative even, or spur some creative ideas in a marketing presentation. So we have to walk a thin line between saying, look, we want you to use it, but ultimately we still wanna be able to evaluate what you're doing.

[00:21:12] Kyle: And we may see some, in some cases, reverting to an old style of evaluation, either oral exams or written exams in class with pencil and paper. And then in other cases, we may just say, yep, please. We expect you to use Gen AI. Just tell us how, show us the prompts you used. Show us the method you used to go through it and build that kind of thing into the assignments.

[00:21:35] Kyle: Right now it's pretty manageable. I'm not super concerned about today's technology. I'm a little more concerned about technology 10 years from now. And I think it really means we have to change the way we evaluate students. Some of the classic evaluation tools of take home exams or projects or spreadsheets, all those things.

[00:21:55] Kyle: Now you can get a lot of help, if not have the assignment done by the machine. It's, yeah it's gonna be at the centre of what we talk about at universities for at least a decade.

[00:22:06] Alison: I think that's also gonna be at the centre of what we talk about in business and marketing for years to come as well.

[00:22:11] Alison: So we, in many ways, we'll be figuring it out together.

[00:22:14] Kyle: Yeah. And so my perspective on that is because that's true, because you're gonna need these skills in business and marketing. If we have to err, I'd prefer that we err on the side of our evaluations aren't quite right, rather than saying, we're just not gonna use it, we're gonna try and block it and shut it down and, make it illegal to use these tools at the university.

[00:22:36] Kyle: I think that would be the wrong way to go. So we'll figure out the evaluation, but we'll make sure that we integrate the tools into the way we're teaching.

[00:22:44] Alison: Understanding Gen AI and how to use it is gonna be mission critical for any of your graduates, for anyone in business today. So that, that definitely feels like the right approach.

[00:22:54] Kyle: Yeah, I think it, there's a lot of, there's a lot of analogies, but it'll be a little like when Excel first comes out or spreadsheets first come out saying, don't use that. It makes it too easy to solve equations. We want you to write it out by hand. And I actually have had, I've had this discussion with a stats professor, not at the current, in my current institution, but elsewhere where they really wanted, they're stats professors, they spent their whole life doing, detailed statistics and the math behind it.

[00:23:22] Kyle: And they really wanted to teach executive MBAs how to do regression by hand. And I was saying to them, no executive MBAs are ever gonna do a regression by hand. Sure, it's helpful to understand the output and how you can make use of that, but they're probably not even gonna run it at a computer so that at least you should teach them how to do it with some software.

[00:23:39] Kyle: But probably you should really focus on how do you get insight from those results and from the output from a regression or whatever the technique might be rather than teaching them do it by hand. And it took a couple years to make that change and eventually we made that change. So yeah, it is important to be able to use the tools.

[00:23:55] Kyle: I don't think we wanna say, spreadsheets make it too easy 30 years ago, anymore than we wanna say Gen AI makes it too easy today because the rest of the world wants it to be easy. They want people to be more productive, they want them to do more in less time. And so yeah, we have to integrate that.

[00:24:11] Kyle: But yeah it's, it'll be an interesting challenge and. I think we'll see some really exciting leaps forward in what students can do in the same amount of time because they have these tools.

[00:24:20] Alison: When we first met, I was talking about how I probably wouldn't get into college today given how sophisticated and smart students are, and you just described them as literally being better at everything.

[00:24:31] Alison: What do you think contributed to the level of excellence that we're seeing in today's students?

[00:24:35] Kyle: Yeah, it's a good question. I tend to see students when they get to the end of a competition, so at the end of a case competition or a brand challenge or a hackathon. So I see the finalists. If we have 300 teams, I see the last six.

[00:24:49] Kyle: So it's, it's a biased view. Or I see this weekend we'll have a, an orientation day and I'll see all the presidents of the student clubs up presenting about their clubs. So I tend to see students who've gone through the gauntlet and have already been tested. But I tell anybody, if you really wanna see

[00:25:08] Kyle: how bright the future is, just come and watch one of these competitions or challenges or spend some time talking to one of our students, and they're so impressive. So yeah, when I say better at everything they're really for the most part, very well-rounded. They're strong quantitatively cause they had to be to get into the program and we have a fairly rigorous program.

[00:25:27] Kyle: What really impresses me is the communication skills, the ability to present and explain ideas and the confidence with which they did that. As most undergraduates, when I was an undergraduate, they went out of their way to not make eye contact with the professors so they wouldn't get called on and not have to answer a question.

[00:25:44] Kyle: Try and avoid presenting in front of the class if you could. And our students, for the most part, not everybody, but for the most part, are eager to do that. They're really good at it. And I think some of that certainly goes to their preparation before they get to university. So at the high school level and earlier, they have more opportunities to do these things and they're encouraged and supported.

[00:26:03] Kyle: It's less competitive. We were worried about standing up in front of the class because you stood up in front of class and said something you shouldn't have you'd probably would hear about it for the rest of your high school life. Where I think students today as a group, are much more supportive.

[00:26:16] Kyle: It's easier to take risks, it's easier to learn 'cause your peers are going to be supporting you through that process. But they also have more exposure to technology earlier, teachers are better. It's like sports. If you watch an old hockey game from the 1960s or seventies, it doesn't really compare to the way we play hockey today.

[00:26:35] Kyle: And it's not that people changed a lot, it's just the training is better, the coaching is better, people are more intense about what they're doing. And yeah it really makes universities fun because business schools like ours, we have all these really bright, excited and exciting students who are really engaged.

[00:26:53] Kyle: Yeah it's hard not to be optimistic about the future when you spend time around them.

[00:26:58] Alison: Absolutely. We have the CMA NXT program, which is in partnership with RBC and it's on college campuses across the country, including yours. And to your point, when we bring those communities together, we're there to educate them on marketing, to give them access to the CMA and

[00:27:14] Alison: marketing communities and we have virtual talent nights, and every time that I'm joining one of those sessions and listening to the students from across the country and Laurier, it is so inspiring to hear and it absolutely leaves me knowing that our profession and our country are in very good hands and for the future leaders.

[00:27:34] Alison: So it's encouraging that you're seeing that to an even deeper level in the role that you have?

[00:27:40] Kyle: Yeah I certainly think so. And if anybody, sometimes people will ask me that question, you know, I've read about this generation being bad at this, or, this generation is flaky on that.

[00:27:50] Kyle: And they'll say, yeah, it's probably always been the case. There's, generations are a lot of different people, so there's some people that are, flaky and some people that aren't that engaged, but I think if you go to any of the great business schools in Ontario, you're gonna see a cohort of students that are exceptionally engaged and bright and confident.

[00:28:10] Kyle: And it's also fair to say they still lack experience and context and they haven't spent a lot of time yet in full-time work. So they have a lot to learn, but in terms of their ability, what they're capable of, yeah, it's impressive and it makes my job a lot of fun. I enjoy days like today where I get to meet students and talk to them and get to know them a little bit,

[00:28:33] Kyle: 'cause they're great people.

[00:28:36] Alison: So when you think about the marketing leaders that are gonna be hiring your graduates, what advice do you have for how we can continue to nurture the marketing graduates in their first roles where they've got amazing potential, good skills, but it will be for many of them their first job.

[00:28:54] Kyle: Yeah. And so what, when I say these students coming in are fantastic and better than ever, it's true. They're even better when they go out and they're even better, they'll be even better 10 years from now, especially if they can get into organizations that do those things, that mentor them, that spend time with them, that, that put in the effort to help them grow into the roles.

[00:29:14] Kyle: I do think that one of the things that's easy to forget is because they're so talented, it's easy to forget that they still don't have much experience with the world. They've traveled more than I would've at that age, and they, the internet exposes them to a lot of different ideas and things

[00:29:29] Kyle: than most of us would've when we were that age, but they haven't done the nine to five, or eight to seven or whatever it is, workday for, months or years on end. And so they have a lot to learn in terms of how do you shift from being a student to not being a student and having a full-time job.

[00:29:49] Kyle: So I think that's easy to overlook because they seem so competent right away. But they've never done it before and they're fast learners and they're adaptable, but it'll take them a few months just to adapt to what work life is like. You don't, being a student, you have a lot of demands, but you also have a lot of flexibility. When you start your day, when you study, when you work on things.

[00:30:11] Kyle: And I think most of us can relate if we can remember back to our first serious job. It's a little bit shocking to be, oh, every day I have to get there at the same time and do the same things? And I think it's easy to forget how hard that is because the students seem so capable, but they're still figuring their lives out.

[00:30:28] Kyle: They know they want to contribute to the world, and I'm confident they're gonna contribute to the world, but it's not clear yet exactly how, and they're gonna change their minds and probably change their careers a few times in their twenties. So they need mentorship. They need flexibility. I think it's great when organizations can build a model that sort of says, we'd love you to spend your whole career here, but we recognize you might not.

[00:30:51] Kyle: And we're also happy to have really strong alumni out of our organization elsewhere in the world for years to come. And that's not easy for some places because they invest a lot in their new grads and their new hires. But yeah, you, I think the biggest thing beyond all the talent is, they still have a lot to learn about how to function in outside of the student world.

[00:31:13] Alison: Those are great reminders. We've all been in, in the work world for a long time. And you do forget how jarring it can be when you first join.

[00:31:21] Kyle: Yeah. And it's some of the little things like little cultural things that we take for granted that are new to them. Like how do you be personable in a work environment?

[00:31:29] Kyle: How do build relationships there? It's not like it is in university. It's not like the friends you had in high school, it's a more professional setting. All those little things that we've forgotten that we learned, they still haven't learned. And we try to teach some of them but a lot of that it's gonna come on the job.

[00:31:46] Alison: Kyle, I end each episode of asking our guests to share one piece of advice for our listeners who aspire to executive roles in marketing.

[00:31:53] Alison: Now given you have a very unique perspective on the marketing profession and a direct line to the future marketing leaders, I'm really excited to hear your advice.

[00:32:00] Kyle: If I have to pick one piece of advice, and there's an obvious bias here, but given how fast the world is changing, I think we have to embrace being forever students. Constant learners. because there was a time where at least we believed you could get a undergraduate degree,

[00:32:19] Kyle: that was the end of education. You work 40 years, you retire, it's all good. I just think now we have to, not necessarily a formal education, you don't have to go to university, but you have to be open to learning constantly. I think marketing, that's probably the case and that a lot of people that go into marketing like change.

[00:32:36] Kyle: They like to be creative, they like new things and so they're pretty good at adapting. But as we all know, that's not the case of a lot of organizations, not the case in my organization. You get comfortable, things get slow to change and you're not as willing to learn new things. I think being that forever student, probably the most important thing going forward is we face an uncertain and rapidly evolving world.

[00:32:59] Alison: That is absolutely mission critical advice. Keeping the curiosity and that learner mindset is, I think to your point, important in any business, even more important in marketing, because we tend to be on the forefront of change whether it's consumer technology or marketplace, we tend to be the first to be impacted and the first that really need to understand it.

[00:33:20] Kyle: Yeah. And leaders culturally in a lot of ways and leaders in work. So if I can cheat your question and throw in a second answer, and this relates to the other things I've been saying, but I, if you can find people you like to work with and colleagues and mentors who are not just people you respect, but people that you enjoy being around,

[00:33:39] Kyle: I think that makes your career much more fun. It's gonna be a lot more enjoyable. You're gonna be happy to go to work, and if you can find that kind of place, then the leadership part of it takes care of itself. But it's really great to have people around you. And you should seek them out, and not just hope it happens that way,

[00:33:58] Kyle: but seek out those people that kind of elevate you and help embrace your, the growth of your career, and you can do the same for them. I think that people side, the relationship side, is something that's easy to forget in your career as you focus on technical things or technological change. But yeah,

[00:34:13] Kyle: my second piece of advice other than learning all the time is find people that you can work with and learn with and grow with.

[00:34:20] Alison: You can definitely cheat that. That was a great second piece of advice. Kyle. Thank you, and it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today. I know you're incredibly busy with the school term and I really appreciate you making time for the CMA and our listeners and providing such great insights.

[00:34:36] Kyle: Oh, it was a lot of fun. Happy to do it and I really appreciate you having me on.

[00:34:45] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the cma.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Marketers have a lot to lose. With complaints surging, mistakes can lead to hefty fines while playing it safe can limit innovation and creativity. So what can they do? CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Harroun, Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC to see where the complaints are coming from, and share the strategies marketers use to stay both competitive and compliant.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:28:07 - 00:01:00:20 Alison It's my pleasure to welcome Steven Harroun, a regulatory leader whose expertise sits at the critical intersection of marketing compliance and consumer protection in Canada's digital landscape. As a Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC, Steven oversees the enforcement of laws and regulations that directly impact how Canadian marketers operate, including CASL, Canada Anti-Spam Legislation and the Unsolicited Telecommunication Rules, including the National Do Not Call list, which both shape the daily practices of marketing professionals in Canada.

00:01:00:22 - 00:01:34:13 Alison While Steven's primary role focuses on regulatory enforcement, his unique position makes him an invaluable voice for marketers navigating Canada's complex compliance landscape. Steven and his team are highly valuable partners to the CMA. He has written articles for us addressing the practical challenges that marketers face when contacting Canadian consumers, while ensuring they're staying compliant with federal regulations. Steven's recent article "From CASL to unsolicited calls: Insights for marketers", really demonstrates his commitment to helping marketing professionals understand and adapt to evolving regulatory requirements.

00:01:34:15 - 00:01:59:06 Alison Steven brings over two decades of experience in telecommunications policy and regulation, having joined the CRTC in 2002 after working at the Canada Revenue Agency and in the private sector. Through his work, Steven has developed international partnerships with regulators worldwide, creating memoranda of Understanding that help enforce Canadian marketing laws across borders, which is a critical capability in today's global digital marketing environment.

00:01:59:08 - 00:02:05:03 Alison Steven, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to an engaging and insightful conversation.

00:02:05:05 - 00:02:21:22 Steven Thank you Alison. That's probably too kind of an introduction, but I appreciate it. And I truly appreciate the invitation. Like, engagements like this are like one of the favourite parts of my role in the organization. And, if I could do one of these every day, I would. So, no, I look forward to the discussion.

00:02:21:23 - 00:02:42:23 Alison Thank you. Now, Steven, the CMA and the CRTC have a long- standing, very collaborative relationship, from coauthoring thought leadership to working on key consumer choice initiatives. Building on that foundation of shared understanding, what do you see as the most important evolution in the dialog between regulators and the marketing community over the past few years?

00:02:43:01 - 00:03:14:12 Steven Yeah, I, let me start with something probably your members already know. But the CRTC, you know, we're an independent quasi judicial administrative tribunal, right? So we regulate communications in Canada in the public interest. We hold public consultations on like telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on a public record. Now, if you turn to my role at the CRTC, which is a little bit unique, and it is unique to kind of have an enforcement arm embedded within the communications regulator, and I was gonna say perhaps I'll get to tell you later about the advantages of that.

00:03:14:14 - 00:03:33:17 Steven But, you know, I am responsible and accountable for promoting compliance, as you said, with Canada's anti=spam legislation in which we affectionately call CASL. And if you actually went to look at the real name of that legislation it's about 42 words long, so CASL works really well, as well as the unsolicited telecommunications roles, which includes our national Do Not Call list.

00:03:33:17 - 00:03:50:09 Steven Right. So that's which is kind of probably a key piece, you know, for your members here. I'm super proud, and I, you know, I started this by saying, I appreciate the invitation, but I'm, I'm super proud of kind of the relationship that we have with industry and specifically the CMA, because I feel like it's very longstanding for me, which is great.

00:03:50:09 - 00:04:09:16 Steven I think one of my first engagements when I stepped into this chair a few years ago was with the CMA. So I'm glad we've been able to continue this discussion, because educating on compliance, ensuring that marketers understand their obligations, take that bigger, just ensuring that all kind of legitimate companies in Canada understand the rules of the road, if you will.

00:04:09:18 - 00:04:34:05 Steven That's key to the success rate. Compliance is key to my success. So at the end of the day, if the more and more outreach activities like this that we do and you're right, we've done vlogs, we're doing this, you know, maybe next year I'll get to do some in-person thing with you guys, perhaps something that's, on the radar. But it's actually these collaborations and these unique opportunities where I get to kind of, you know, talk about, well, this is the world as I see it today.

00:04:34:10 - 00:04:57:18 Steven You know, and kind of the premise of your question was exactly that, like today. So I look back and I look back and, you know, I look back ten years and go, the things that we were seeing then and the complaints that we were seeing then from Canadians and the environment in which we're operating, we're very much focused on telemarketing and people getting calls and people, you know, I was going to say deciding whether or not they wanted to get calls right?

00:04:57:19 - 00:05:20:06 Steven Now, ironically, you know, it's ten years since CASL came into force this year, just in July. So that dialog has changed, right? Even over, even with your organization over the past decade, that dialog has changed. We are now talking about not just about calls. We are now talking about emails, and we're talking about SMS and we're talking about other digital platforms, perhaps that we hadn't even contemplated the early days of CASL.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:41:00 Steven Right? We were talking about will you agree to get my email that's exploded kind of exponentially, even just from that, from that side of the house. So I think that's interesting to me, and I think that's fascinating as far as a landscape perspective goes, the legislation on the telemarketing side is 20 years old. You know, the even on CASL now, it's actually hard to believe for me to say that that's ten years old.

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:01:11 Steven But the environment in which we, you know, we ensure compliance within those regimes has just changed dramatically. And I look at, from my organization and if I look at kind of how we're trying to approach that. We, and I'm sure and I'm sure we'll get into this discussion, like your members have had to totally change things up completely. Like we, in the last ten years

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:17:17 Steven I built up a technical forensics team, you know, and I, you know, and I have a whole group of people now who, who slice and dice all the intelligence that we receive. But, you know, then we also have to look at when we're doing major investigations, we have to look at people's devices. And we have to understand, I was going to say, I'm no engineer, right?

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:35:02 Steven I'm really lucky, or a techie engineer. I'm really lucky that I get to lead a really great team of really cool, really technical people. But they can look at all this coding and they can look, you know, behind the screen and they can tell me like, oh, this is happening and this is where this is and this, which, which fascinates me.

00:06:35:02 - 00:06:53:18 Steven And if you told me ten years ago I'd lead a team of forensics experts, I would have, I would have said, I must be changing jobs, but I'm not, because that's just how much the environment has changed which I think it's really cool. But then I, you know, if I go to where your members are sitting and the things that they need to do, it isn't just calling Canadians about something, right?

00:06:53:18 - 00:07:09:19 Steven It's how are we reaching Canadians on so many different levels in so many different platforms? And most importantly for me, because I go back to my compliance roots, is how are we respecting Canadians' choices? Like how are we respect, like this is how I want to be engaged, and this is how often I want to be engaged. And you know what?

00:07:09:22 - 00:07:26:11 Steven I don't want to be engaged anymore. Right? Like that's the other side of that. So I, you know, it's easy for me to sit here as, you know, the Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement and say, do this, do this, do this and respect this, respect this, respect this. But I also, I understand, I was gonna say I worked in private sector at the early start in my career.

00:07:26:11 - 00:07:45:16 Steven Actually, I understand the other side of that where it's like, okay, but we want to push all the levers we can, obviously, to get our message out. So that, to me, that the technological space and how much things have evolved in our conversations over the ten years is really fascinating to me. And I'll be honest, what keeps my team up at night is actually the more nefarious actors in this space, right?

00:07:45:16 - 00:08:08:06 Steven Because with all this technological advancement and all this, these different ways to engage Canadians, and if you will, all the ways to kind of run around the year, move around the legitimate ways of doing business, I now have, we now have, it's not just me. We now have Canadians who are fearful to answer the phone, don't know whether to click on a link, don't know whether this is coming from Company X or not.

00:08:08:07 - 00:08:24:05 Steven It's, I think it's creating such a challenging perspective. And I think it's really hard, as me, like as a regulator and my, my ultimate goal is just to stay ahead of all that. I would never consider the fact that we're leading edge, but if I can stay close to that edge to understand where things are going and try and keep ahead of it.

00:08:24:07 - 00:08:39:06 Steven If you've heard me speak before, I often, you know, I often say, I want to, I want to disrupt the activities of the bad actors. And then on the other side, after I've done that, I want to hire them, because they're so savvy and they're so technical experts and they're so nimble. And I feel like, oh, have I got a job for you.

00:08:39:06 - 00:08:59:16 Steven Like, if you will, use your powers for good as opposed to other ulterior motives. But, you know, I think the biggest challenge we have is just keeping pace with innovation. But I think, you know, for me, it's how do I give the best advice possible? How do I ensure that our perspective on compliance remains relevant for the activities that your members want to pursue?

00:08:59:18 - 00:09:37:01 Alison And Steven, it's so helpful to have someone in your role who does have the private sector experience as well as deep, robust public sector experience, and really can understand the importance of both of those stakeholders. And then to your point, where there's so much evolving in our profession from a technology perspective, from a broader marketplace perspective. So our ongoing collaboration to ensure that we are acting in the best interests of Canadian consumers and also ensuring that businesses and brands can continue to grow and thrive, drive our economy.

00:09:37:03 - 00:09:59:09 Alison That's a very important goal that we are both very united on. So your role gives you a really unique and very valuable view into the concerns that Canadians have about advertising and marketing. And I know our listeners will be very interested to hear what are the top issues and complaints that the CRTC has received from Canadian consumers over the last 12 months?

00:09:59:11 - 00:10:16:16 Steven Yeah, it's interesting and kind of a piece from the previous question about how the environment has changed, the complaints of Canadians have changed as well. I know kind of where we're headed over the next few months just by what I've seen the last few months, and we're seeing that real surge in complaints just related to kind of unwanted digital communications.

00:10:16:16 - 00:10:29:08 Steven And I'll even go past the email and I was going to say, my son will tell me, email is so paste, you're like, you know, you need to be on Instagram and you need to be on Snapchat. You need to be on all these other things, and folks are taking advantage of that, which is good, as a good, strong marketer should.

00:10:29:10 - 00:10:46:16 Steven But then I go to the other side about engaging those people properly is really important. And I'm fascinated, my 6 or 7 years sitting in this chair, that the number one complaint at the end of the day remains the same, which is always about consent. And it remains, you know, like a) they're not supposed to call me, I'm on the Do Not Call list.

00:10:46:18 - 00:11:03:02 Steven B) I've never consented to receive this email. C) Yes, I said they could e-mail me. I didn't realize it was going to be 80 times a day because a sale is about to end. Like those types of things, right? So I'm fascinated that even in this day and age, it really is about that. Consent, consent, consent, when we're talking legitimate.

00:11:03:02 - 00:11:26:21 Steven And let's be, let me be clear on that. You know, from legitimate communications, the number one complaint remains consent. And we can get into that a little bit later. But then there's also the frustration which I expressed to you earlier, just on the more nefarious actors. Right? So now people don't know if it really is the Netflix, you know, email or the network's text message saying, oh, we couldn't process your payment or, you know, people don't know if it's like really their financial institution.

00:11:27:02 - 00:11:48:06 Steven We, at the Government of Canada face lots of impersonation, which is challenging, right? Because all of these scams, if you will, are really targeted to just get financial information, get personal information to do more nefarious activities behind the scenes. Right? So I often talk about how I'm going to address that with consumers. Right? How I'm going to deal with that with Canadians.

00:11:48:06 - 00:12:08:04 Steven And we operate under a civil regulatory regime. Right? So and that's kind of that's kind of important to understand, because I can ensure compliance with all the legitimate companies in Canada. And I would suggest that I probably have 95% plus compliance, because legitimate companies just need to know the rules and how to comply with the rules, because they're very familiar that there are rules to follow.

00:12:08:06 - 00:12:37:09 Steven There's some of the things we're talking about here, about government impersonation or brand impersonation, those types of things, like those are for the most part, criminal in nature. They're the only, the only goal in that communication to a Canadian is to steal information. Financial, personal whatever. So it's fascinating. I've got a really cool tech forensics team which can help me understand all that, and slice and dice all that, and understand, are we talking legitimate companies perhaps doing something inappropriate or not compliant with whatever piece of legislation we're talking about, or the other side of that

00:12:37:09 - 00:12:58:12 Steven is, or are they really just illegitimate companies trying to do illegitimate things and inappropriate things? I'm super lucky. I'm constrained by a civil regulatory regime. Fair. But I have lots of other levers I can pull, right? I'm embedded within a telecommunications regulator. So the way the Telecom Act is structured in Canada, I can impose certain conditions on TSPs, and I can ask them to do certain things.

00:12:58:16 - 00:13:22:10 Steven You know, they can't willingly, if you will, disrupt traffic, whether that's telephony traffic or whether that's, you know, email traffic or SMS traffic, they have to push it through. They have to pass it through. Just if you will, a pipe, that's where the traffic flows. As the regulator, I can say, oh, but wait a minute, we have evidence to suggest that this type of activity with this type of technical background, all that stuff behind it, is actually fraudulent.

00:13:22:12 - 00:13:47:07 Steven And, for me, to protect Canadians in this space, because ultimately Canadians don't actually care if I have a civil powers or criminal powers or whatever. They just want the calls to stop. They want the emails to start, they want the text messages to stop that are potentially going to try and take their information. So I'm able to kind of leverage some regulatory policy tools to say, okay, TSPs, if you see this activity, I suggest you don't pass that on to Canadians.

00:13:47:11 - 00:14:06:19 Steven And we've had some really great success on both the telephony side. And we're working on the CASL side of the house as far as like where we can stop traffic that we know is truly illegitimate. So a) that protects Canadians because the phone never rings, the email never lands in their inbox, the text message never arrives that says, oh, update your information and maybe you don't.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:28:11 Steven Or you do, unknowingly and unsuspecting anything you know untoward, but b) it actually helps the legitimate companies establish themselves as trusted brands, right? Because if you don't have all the, if you will, the the noise around it, trusted brands, trusted marketers, trusted organizations can get their message clearly to Canadians, and Canadians can trust what they're receiving.

00:14:28:11 - 00:14:50:21 Steven So yeah. So so for me it's it's the complexity has changed of complaints. It's no longer about they shouldn't be calling me. The other side of that is, the Canadians' complaints are becoming much more sophisticated. Right?People are now aware of their personal information rights, their privacy rights. So Canadians are much more sophisticated as well in how they're engaging with the regulator. And they're saying, wait a minute, the like, they're not allowed to do this or they shouldn't do this.

00:14:50:21 - 00:15:15:01 Steven And, you know, those types of things. So I appreciate the sophistication of the complaints that I receive. I appreciate them pointing me to all types of, of, of activities going on in this space. And we try, bit by bit, whether it's through civil to regulatory policy, even just through educating Canadians. You know, I, you know, I do this for, you know, these compliance things across all kinds of different organizations and industries like this.

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:28:17 Steven But I also, you know, place a huge effort on how do I educate Canadians in this space, because if I can't stop some of those activities, it really does come down to, the more Canadians are aware, the more they're educated, the less likely they are to fall victim.

00:15:28:19 - 00:15:44:17 Alison The CMA is very proud to manage the Do Not Mail service, which is a cornerstone of consumer choice in the physical marketing world. From the CRTC's perspective, how valuable are these kinds of industry-led self-regulatory models? You know, complementing the work that you're doing in your mandate?

00:15:44:19 - 00:16:03:08 Steven It's amazing, my answer is, I love it, I love it, I love it. So how's that, as, as, as the regulator and as the person accountable in this organization for trying to respect Canadians' choices, I love initiatives like this. It's been around a long time, which is which is fantastic. And now I need to figure out how do I permeate that through everything.

00:16:03:08 - 00:16:25:01 Steven Right? And we need a Do Not Text list and we need a Do Not kinds of lists. But I also want to make it easier for Canadians. So that's you know, that's the other side of that piece. Compliance activities, they take a lot of time, but they're worth it, right, at the end of the day. And this is the best part of my job as far as, you know, just educating industry, educating consumers, educating Canadians. Enforcement, which, you know, at the end of the day, I enforce when necessary.

00:16:25:01 - 00:16:42:22 Steven Right? There are folks who don't follow the rules. Sometimes they didn't know there were rules. Sometimes they just, you know, don't like the rules, so they don't abide by them. But enforcement activities take time, right? They take time. They take resources. I often say I could have the entire CRTC working on anti-spam and telemarketing cases, right? Across the two regimes

00:16:42:22 - 00:17:04:05 Steven I get about 6000 complaints a week. My teams have to be strategic on the cases that we select, you know, with a huge focus kind of on, like, where's the biggest bang for our buck, and where is it impacting Canadians the most? Those types of things, and our strategic assessments on the types of cases that we pursue through an enforcement, which can take several months, even over a year, to make sure we have that kind of fulsome case.

00:17:04:07 - 00:17:25:22 Steven But things like this, like this, if you will, the self-regulation or co-regulation model or even permissive model is really fantastic. And, you know, I talked earlier just about kind of my regulatory policy and tools that I can use. And and I have a really great case from the pandemic, when there was like huge telemarketing scams going on because everybody was home and all of a sudden answering their phone. And they needed, I was going to say, I feel like they needed someone to talk to.

00:17:25:22 - 00:17:49:14 Steven Right? So they are actually willing to pick up the phone and maybe who knows who they were talking to. But during the pandemic, there was this huge scam going on and in the telephony space. And Bell Canada came to us at the time and they said, oh, like we think we've, if you will, analyzed it so narrowly that we can stop these calls if you give us permission. Back to as a quasi-judicial administrative tribunal,

00:17:49:16 - 00:18:12:11 Steven you know, we put that out there in the public. And we said, you know what? A major TSP wants to do this. Are there any concerns? Of course there are concerns, right? At the end of the day, it can take personal rights, freedoms. Why are you stopping my traffic? Why are you doing all that? But we built all the safe parts into, if you will, the model that they wanted to present and how they wanted to stop that traffic, things like false positives and how do they rectify that, and how do we ensure that they're doing the right thing?

00:18:12:11 - 00:18:32:03 Steven And can we make them report so that we know what they're doing, right? Full transparency. And, you know, as a regulator where we're all for, you know, 1,000% transparency on what it is we're doing, especially if we're affecting Canadians traffic, whether that be email or telephony. So they've used AI with, you know, kind of a human verification component to look at this particular piece of traffic.

00:18:32:04 - 00:18:58:01 Steven And since 2021, I think they've stopped like 6 billion calls. You know, they're averaging like 1 billion calls a year. Those are calls that never reached Canadians. Those phones have never rang. They have never been subject to that scam. And I would suggest over 6 billion calls, I think there's been two false positives. So that just goes to show that even just the regulatory process, like that works. It still remains

00:18:58:01 - 00:19:19:12 Steven just such a tremendous success. So, you know, so that idea you know, that's sort of in my mind similar to that kind of, you know, co-regulation, self-regulation. Let us do this, let this permissive type of thing. So I'm always encouraging folks, especially when I'm talking to kind of the industry folks, is, if you've got any really good ideas and you think you know how you can address this particular problem, definitely come see me.

00:19:19:14 - 00:19:41:18 Alison That's great. In many ways, it sounds like this collaborative model can really help serve as a blueprint for future challenges, so it will benefit everyone involved.

Steven Absolutely.

Alison Now Steven, you've touched on this a bit, but to help our members align even more closely with CRTC's approach. could you give us a bit of a look behind the curtain at the philosophy that guides your enforcement strategy?

00:19:41:20 - 00:20:04:00 Steven I always say there's a reason I'm a Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement. There's a reason Compliance comes first in my title, because ultimately that's our goal. I have pieces of legislation which I need to ensure compliance. Obviously, part of compliance is actually enforcement, right? And enforcement is just a tool that we use under compliance. And we've kind of, feel like we've really kind of expanded that model as far as the compliance model goes.

00:20:04:00 - 00:20:20:01 Steven So a) I talked about regulatory policy. There are lots of tools and levers that I can pull on the regulatory policy side, to deal with some of the things that I actually can't enforce. And I go back to, you know, I'm a civil regime, so I'm restricted, but I can use some policy measures to stop some of those more nefarious activities.

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:42:01 Steven I'm always about, what is impacting Canadians the most? Someone recently asked, what keeps you up at night? And I'll be perfectly honest, it's actually that I haven't done enough for Canadians. We all hear stories, like every day in the news about how Canadians have been defrauded or scammed or whatever. And even though, you know, I may have limited powers, that's what keeps me up at night.

00:20:42:01 - 00:21:03:14 Steven And, you know, and I often say, you know, in Canada we have, March is Fraud Prevention Month and October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month. And and I say, I love these months for all the wrong reasons, because, you know, national news outlets or whatever, they go and find all the horrible stories and they're horrible. People who lose their life savings, people who fall victim to a scam.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:20:05 Steven People have lost their homes or, everything. They are all horrible. But I appreciate it from, the more Canadians are aware, the less likely they are to fall victim. There are certain things that keep me up in the night about protecting Canadians, because ultimately that's our goal in this space, and that should be, the members of the CMA,

00:21:20:05 - 00:21:44:05 Steven that should be their goal as well. Right? It goes back to trusted brand and it goes back to respectful communication, and it goes back to those types of things and engaging the consumer when they want to be engaged and not engaging them when they're not. But from an enforcement strategy, we've really tried to take an expanded approach on things like this, things on how we engage Canadians, and then enforce, where necessary, but being innovative there as well.

00:21:44:07 - 00:22:03:02 Steven From alternative case resolution. I've mentioned that a full-on enforcement case can take many, many months, up to two years in some cases, if they're, you know, if they're a little more technically involved. But alternative case resolution is really like, oh, we see a problem with a legitimate player. We kind of package that up and say, okay, this is what we're seeing.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:22:10 Steven We should have a discussion and land somewhere where we quickly get to a resolution. A really good example of that from an ACR perspective, maybe not from a society perspective. But last year we did an enforcement action with Hudson's Bay, which really was, we were receiving a plethora of complaints, like so many complaints, that we're like, okay, there's something wrong here.

00:22:22:10 - 00:22:41:13 Steven Someone's pushed the wrong button, someone's done something wrong that we're seeing so many complaints. So, you know, my folks kind of, if you will, put together a very kind of quick case, like, this is what we're seeing. This is the consistency in the complaints. We've tested these particular pieces, uncharacteristically, but more in line with alternative case resolution,

00:22:41:14 - 00:22:58:14 Steven we actually reached out to the Bay. We said, okay, we think we see a really big problem here. Maybe it's something that you're not seeing. Maybe it's something that you're not aware of. Maybe you've changed providers on doing a particular activity or something. But we see a huge problem here. Hudson Bay - amazing. Happy to come to the table.

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:18:13 Steven Happy to discuss. Happy to go back into their organization going, okay, like we've got to figure this out and kind of came back and said, you know what? We were wrong. Like, we were wrong. Our unsubscribe wasn't working. We were not respecting the ten day deadline. It wasn't easy, you know, for folks. So it really did focus a lot on that unsubscribe piece, which is really like people saying, I don't want to hear from you anymore.

00:23:18:13 - 00:23:42:14 Steven And, you know, and that hurts when someone wants to break up with you, but you have to respect their choice. And, and you know, and that's the case. But, but in that scenario, within six months, which is short from an investigation standpoint, we were able to gather all the evidence, come up with an assessment, talk to the party involved and come to a resolution which was then putting in a compliance program to make sure you know, that type of issue didn't happen again, documenting those practices.

00:23:42:16 - 00:24:03:06 Steven And ultimately, you know, they paid an administrative monetary penalty as well because the violations were huge, as far as the number of people who were expressing that type of issue. So, but that's kind of a really good example of, there's lots of different ways, right, to, it doesn't have to be full-on enforcement action. And, you know, administrative monetary penalties, it can be something like this, which is quick and easy.

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:19:21 Steven It can be a negotiated settlement. It can be just coming to an agreement that, oh, when you engaged a third party to do this for you, you know, to give you a different perspective, they need to make sure they're complying with all the rules. And you don't get to contract away your obligations. So it's also, you know, doing your own due diligence.

00:24:19:21 - 00:24:38:20 Steven It's also just understanding if someone else is acting on your behalf or someone else is doing something on your behalf, you are ultimately accountable. So you know, so that's that's also an interesting perspective as well. So you know, I think for me it it really does come down to being as innovative and creative, there's more than one way to achieve compliance.

00:24:38:21 - 00:24:57:03 Steven One of the things we do twice a year on our website is we publish what we call our CASL dashboard. We tell you how many complaints we've got, where the areas of those complaints is, what categories those fall into. We talk about any kind of regulatory policy work we've done. We do publish so that Canadians are well aware of what we're trying to do in this space.

00:24:57:04 - 00:25:16:09 Steven And then on an annual basis, on the telemarketing side, we publish an annual Do Not Call list report every fall, which talks about, like these are the complaints we saw, these are the actions we took. It really gives a good snapshot. And I actually think it's useful for compliance folks in any particular organization to go look and say, oh, wait a minute, retail is an issue or oh, direct marketing is an issue.

00:25:16:09 - 00:25:25:18 Steven And what are Canadians complaining about. And you can drill down do you see in those those documents to kind of understand it. And if don't, then you can always reach out to us so that you can get ahead of it.

00:25:25:20 - 00:25:52:04 Alison Those are great resources for marketers and the broader business community as well. And we are absolutely in passionate agreement about the importance of putting Canadian consumers at the centre of everything we do and operating in very ethical, transparent and respectful ways. It's written into the code of ethics that the CMA has on behalf of the marketing profession, and anyone that's part of the CMA from a brand perspective,

00:25:52:04 - 00:26:10:12 Alison It absolutely has helped with that important criteria. So we are very much aligned on that for sure. Now, I would love you to share what you're seeing and how Canadians are responding to marketing, because again, you have such a unique lens on this, and what are three lessons that you would offer for marketers based on what you've been seeing?

00:26:10:14 - 00:26:27:15 Steven Well, I feel like we could probably take the entire length of this podcast to talk about what Canadians tell me. We, as I said, get 6000 complaints a week from Canadians. At the top of this podcast, you know, you talked about just our international work and our memorandums of understanding and how critical that is. And I actually cannot stress that enough.

00:26:27:15 - 00:26:51:09 Steven You know, every country around the world, and certainly like countries, there are similar countries who have similar, you know, regimes, if you will, in the communication space. We all have domestic legislation and we've got an international problem. So those memorandums of understanding are critical, a) to assist with enforcement actions because often folks impacting some of the things that Canadians are concerned about maybe don't reside in Canada.

00:26:51:09 - 00:27:11:21 Steven So, you know, I need to kind of exercise those MOUs there. But more importantly, like just for information sharing and intelligence sharing. And how did you address a particular issue? I'm sure out there you could see how waves of campaigns or waves of discontent, if you will, kind of just go around the world, right? Like, and there's all these different campaigns that kind of flow around.

00:27:11:21 - 00:27:27:15 Steven So, you know, if I can talk to my colleague in New Zealand or if I can talk to my colleague in the UK, or just this week, I just signed an MOU with, the communications regulator in Ireland. If I can pick up the phone, call them and say, okay, I am seeing this, how did you guys approach it?

00:27:27:15 - 00:27:50:04 Steven Have you seen it yet? There's always a good question. But you know, if you did, what kind of what kind of message it take and what did you how did you work with your industry involved in this and how did you work with the communications folks that you perhaps regulate to try and address this particular thing? Those agreements are critical when we've got a global problem, right, at the end of the day, on the more nefarious side of the house, but that affects Canadians, and it goes back to trusted brands.

00:27:50:04 - 00:28:07:07 Steven Online shopping probably is one of the number one hits that we get. Food, drug, health, especially on the drug side. Business to business people don't necessarily, I can say, maybe don't understand, you know. A lot of the business to business rules are, if you will, less constrictive. You know, they're very permissive, right? Business to business, you've got to be able to do business.

00:28:07:09 - 00:28:21:16 Steven But I think there's a lot of probably grey area there about, you know, what you're allowed to do with another business, etc.. Those are kind of the categories. And I encourage you go to our dashboard, I encourage you go to our reports because you'll see a much more robust discussion that I'm giving you on that.

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:37:06 Steven The top complaints I get, and we were talking about this earlier is, I did not give consent to get this email. I did not give consent to get this text message. The one thing I preach every time in front of every industry that I speak to is consent, consent, consent, and then, of course, on the CASL side of the house, it's about unsubscribe.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:53:22 Steven And I know that sounds very, you know, in some way it's it's kind of like, well just delete the email. But from a marketer's perspective, if someone says they don't want tp hear from you anymore, then just respect that choice, because then you just frustrate them. But you know, people file a complaint, which is work. I admit that, right?

00:28:53:22 - 00:29:13:08 Steven They've got to call somebody. They've got to fill out a form, they've got to do something. So if they're going to take the time to do that, it means they're really frustrated. And I talk about 6000 complaints a week I get from Canadians. That probably means tenfold, 20 fold, 100 fold who are actually frustrated. Right? They think it's, you know, it's at least ten times that.

00:29:13:10 - 00:29:29:07 Steven Now, people who are complaining about a particular issue, particular thing, because most Canadians will not complain. They won't take the effort, you know, to go out there and say, you know what, I'm going to fill out this form because this is the 82nd time that I've actually unsubscribed. They won't stop it, you know, I tell them not to.

00:29:29:07 - 00:29:49:00 Steven They just don't respect my choice. And we all know at the end of the day, word of mouth is way better than any ad campaign. So respecting that choice. And it's the same on the Do Not Call side. It's one thing if you register for the Do Not Call list, obviously there are exceptions to that, but when that consumer says, can you place me on your internal Do Not Call list, which is sort of like an unsubscribe, right?

00:29:49:02 - 00:30:08:02 Steven Okay. I appreciate you're allowed to call me. I still don't want you to call me. So respect that, respect that choice. Right? Because that's what's frustrating for Canadians. But if you want my top three tips? Consent, consent, consent. Document, document document. And what I mean by that is, if someone asks to be put on your internal Do Not Call list,

00:30:08:02 - 00:30:37:20 Steven if at the end of the day you've actioned and unsubscribed within the ten days suggested. Whatever you do with the consumer or the Canadian that you're engaging in, make sure you have documented processes around CASL, around telemarketing, around the national Do Not Call list, have them in a binder, have them available, you know, on your SharePoint drive, so that everyone can see them, etc. But, you know, document it. Because when I come knocking saying, I'm getting all these complaints and I need to understand like, is this working?

00:30:37:22 - 00:30:56:01 Steven This is the first thing you're going to give me as a due diligence defence. You're going to say, wait a minute, I've got all the records. I know I'm allowed to call people when I'm allowed to call people. I respected the fact that when people tell me not to call them, I don't call them, and more importantly, I have a robust compliance program, that ensures that we check off all those boxes and we follow all those procedures.

00:30:56:01 - 00:31:14:21 Steven So the document piece is really important to me, because that's the first thing I'm going to ask you. Can you prove it? You know, I you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to say, this is what I'm seeing. What's your defence? So, you know, if you've got the policies and procedures in place and maybe you dust them off once a year to make sure they're still relevant, you know, maybe you call us and say, is there anything new that we should add?

00:31:14:23 - 00:31:32:22 Steven You know, that's all great, but make sure that it's available, right? And that feeds so well into whatever compliance program that you would ever need to do. And then the third thing, and I sort of touched on it is, be responsive to Canadians. If they say, don't call me, don't call them. If they say, I want to unsubscribe, unsubscribe, just respect that wish.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:39:00 Steven And I think that gets you a long way as far as keeping everyone happy in the ecosystem, including the regulator.

00:31:39:02 - 00:32:02:05 Alison Steven, that is absolutely great advice. So the world and business are going through truly tectonic shifts. And as we both look forward toward those complex future challenges, like the ethical use of AI, the more sophisticated digital scams that you've talked about, where do you see the most critical opportunities for our two organizations to continue working together?

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:25:12 Steven We're in an interesting space when it comes to AI, right? Whether it's, whether it's private sector, whether it's governments, whether it's like huge manufacturing places, how do we leverage the technology for good instead of evil, right? Like how do we make sure that we can get the most out of AI without crossing any boundaries? So in the Government of Canada, even here, you know, at the CRTC, we're trying to figure out how do we leverage AI to do some of the work for us, right?

00:32:25:12 - 00:32:43:02 Steven How can you help us in the slicing and dicing process? So, you know, how do we use that tool? So AI is going to be critical. And I think, I think where we need to get to is, one, I think we need to be transparent. I think we need to be transparent with Canadians from the regulator's perspective on how we're using AI and from the Government

00:32:43:02 - 00:33:03:15 Steven Canada's perspective, if I can talk on behalf of them. Let's not try to pretend we're something else. Let's not try to pretend we're better than anyone else, because we did this really cool thing. That we used AI, and maybe we got a head start on our competition, but we used AI to do that. And, you know, that really does take me to trusted brand, which I think is probably most important for your association.

00:33:03:17 - 00:33:24:03 Steven And you want Canadians to believe in your brand. You want Canadians to answer the phone if you're calling them, you want them to open your email, you want them to respond to your SMS text message, you want them to positively engage with your brand. I think that's the biggest challenge we have. Be that trusted brand so that when people see that pop in their inbox, they go, oh, that's from Company X.

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:40:05 Steven I really like them. But I think by being that trusted brand and and trying to respect their wishes on how they want to be engaged and, and, you know, respect the things on how they want to be engaged, I guess. But I think the other side of that is, is also being transparent with them on what you're doing and how you're doing it, right?

00:33:40:05 - 00:34:11:02 Steven And to go back to, I think collaborations like this, I think engagements like this are really important. You know, I have really amazing people who work for me and I am very blessed, whether that be technically, forensically or from policy driven or just engagement folks. If there's any way as the regulator that I can be helpful, whether that's standing in front of a roomful of people, or we can provide you some guidance on where to find some cool things, tips and tricks that we deem to be, you know, within the confines of CASL or the UTRs in the telemarketing regime or whatever,

00:34:11:08 - 00:34:25:21 Steven we are happy to do that. You just have to always be mindful that even using AI, you have to respect all the rules, like all the rules still apply. But for me, it's about being transparent with Canadians, and I think that would be the most important thing. And I think that's where you get that trust.

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:49:05 Alison And your point around trust in brands is so absolutely mission critical for every marketer, for every business. We did some CMA research a few months ago with Canadian consumers to understand more about that. And when Canadians are receiving irrelevant messages, when they're, when you're communicating to them in ways that they don't want, it is one of the quickest ways to lose trust.

00:34:49:05 - 00:35:14:05 Alison And building back that lost trust takes many, many years, and often it can't be done. So the wisdom that you're sharing with us is very much appreciated and certainly will be resonating with my listeners as well. So before I let you get back to your busy day, I'd love you to share what is the single most important piece of advice that you can offer to a senior marketing leader who wants to build a culture of compliance that also drives innovation.

00:35:14:07 - 00:35:18:00 Steven Well, so you're ending with an easy question. That's awesome, thanks, I appreciate that.

00:35:18:02 - 00:35:19:21 Alison We've been warming up.

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:40:23 Steven I think from an individual's perspective, I would suggest the number one thing they can do is pick their boss. And the reason I say that is, it's great, we all get interviewed for different positions. I know when I coach and mentor, I often tell people once you get to a certain level, like once you get to that executive level status, it's actually not about the content, right?

00:35:40:23 - 00:35:58:15 Steven It is actually about your competencies as a leader. It's what drives you as a leader and how you drive a team. You know, it's about your values and ethics. So as much as you might be interviewing, or anyone listening here might be interviewing for a position, I would suggest you have a due diligence to interview them.

00:35:58:17 - 00:36:23:17 Steven Because I think that connection with your boss is critical. You need to be in a position where you are aligned, whether it be like-minded or even just aligned from a values and ethics perspective, it is way easier to be amazing in your job if it aligns with your personal beliefs and in the organization aligns, you know, with your values and ethics, but also the person that you're working for on a day-to-day basis.

00:36:23:17 - 00:36:49:17 Steven And we all spend all kinds of time with our leaders. As senior leaders, you need to spend the time and spend the effort in creating that kind of healthy, supportive work environment for success. And it sounds cliche. But that, take mentoring and coaching really seriously. Empower your folks to take risk. I would like to say, if you asked any of my senior executive team, they would tell me that I'm, you know, an empowering leader.

00:36:49:17 - 00:37:08:09 Steven I ask them to be creative every day. I ask them to come up with finding innovative solutions. I give them the bandwidth to make those decisions, but I also give them the bandwidth to make those mistakes. And I'm on the side of, like, you need to actually celebrate those mistakes as much as you celebrate the wins, because it means we tried something, right?

00:37:08:14 - 00:37:13:01 Steven And not everything works right? Like, you know, as much as we have all these really great ideas and I have

00:37:13:10 - 00:37:32:00 Steven amazingly smart people who work around me, we go down a certain path and go, well that didn't work out as we thought it would, and I'm sure all of your listeners would feel the same way in certain circumstances. But I think it's, it's really about that supportive, empowering environment because I think you need to you know, you need to make it infectious.

00:37:32:00 - 00:37:51:18 Steven You need to be an exciting place to work. You need people to get up every day and say, I can't wait to go to work and try this and do this. And I'm the first to admit it. As you move up in an organization and as you become less, you know, engaged with the bigger, broader team and all the people who may work for you, I think it's really important

00:37:51:18 - 00:38:09:11 Steven That you kind of just reflect on that and spend some time, it doesn't have to be a lot, but spend some time like going down two or three or four levels and understand what people are talking to. And, you know, maybe I was going to say, I think my folks like it. Maybe if you ask them offline and told them otherwise, like I just pop in the team meetings,

00:38:09:11 - 00:38:26:16 Steven Because I know my folks are having a team meeting, and I'll just pop in and sit down, and then they all think I'm there to say something and I'm like, no, I'm just here to listen. Like I just want to understand what's going on, right? Like, you know, I don't have that opportunity every day. So I think, for me, it's about, it's about allowing employees, even at the most junior of levels, to feel like they're leaving their mark.

00:38:26:16 - 00:38:46:08 Steven But you need to foster that environment. So you need actually to work at that. You need to spend 15 minutes a day, you need to spend 30 minutes a week? I don't know what it is, but it's like engaging at all kinds of different points, not just the folks who sit around your executive table. My motto is, you know, as a fellow public servant, you know, my name will never be on a building.

00:38:46:08 - 00:39:04:22 Steven I always say, I want to be remembered in people's retirement speeches. And I will never hear any of them, probably. But I want them, you know, when they're ready to retire from their career, I want them to go, I had this really great boss once. So if I could encourage anyone from an individual perspective or building a team perspective is like, like be that leader.

00:39:05:00 - 00:39:25:20 Alison There is so much inspiration and richness in what you just shared. I think in any business today, but certainly as marketers, if we are not testing and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, you simply can't innovate. There is no way we will have all of the answers and get it right the first time when we're trying to innovate and do something we've never done before and I,

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:59:03 Alison Before joining the CMA, I spent four years in the startup space, which I believed that before I went in. But certainly coming out of that experience, you absolutely have to be willing to take measured risks and fail at times and learn from the failing. And then, who needs a statue when you could be creating the legacy that you're creating by helping accelerate people's careers and their growths, and to really be remembered in those retirement speeches. That is absolutely the ultimate compliment that any leader today in any business can have.

00:39:59:03 - 00:40:18:13 Alison So, Steven, thank you for ending on such an amazing note, thank you for an absolutely wonderful conversation. And thank you to you and your team for being such great partners with the CMA as we together manage through the quickly evolving business, consumer and regulatory environment.

00:40:18:15 - 00:40:39:10 Steven Awesome. Thank you for the opportunity. I'll do my website plug, and you know, it's www.crtc.gc.ca. If you have any questions, my face is on there somewhere. You can find me and they'll tell you how to contact me. But by all means, this is the best part of my role. And if we have another opportunity, whether that be in person or, or something else, by all means, don't hesitate to reach out.

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:40:18 Steven This has been great. Thank you.

00:40:40:22 - 00:40:46:03 Alison We would love to get you out in person for one of our events in 2026. Thanks so much, Steven. Have a good day.

00:40:46:03 - 00:40:52:15 Steven Thank you.

00:40:52:17 - 00:41:05:06 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What does it take to rise from your first marketing role to CEO of a major communications company? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Richard Kellam, who transformed his career from marketer to President & CEO of DATA Communications Management Corp. (DCM). Richard reveals how he leveraged transferable skills to make the jump to CPG, secured international opportunities, and how he evolved from Chief Customer Officer to CEO.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:10 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:28:12 - 00:01:00:08 Alison In today's episode, it's my pleasure to welcome Richard Kellam, who represents one of marketing's most desirable success stories. A CMO who successfully transitioned to global and national president and CEO roles. This is still far too much of a rarity in our profession. Richard is president and CEO of Data Communications Management Corp., commonly known as DCM. His journey from brand manager to chief executive spans three decades, eight different countries and leading marketing, sales and ultimately the top job for tier one brands.

00:01:00:10 - 00:01:26:12 Alison Richard's career progression through marketing leadership roles at Molson, Wrigley, Mars and Goodyear, combined with strategic moves into sales and general management positions, provides a really wonderful blueprint for ambitious marketing professionals seeking to expand their influence beyond the marketing role. At DCM, Richard is proving that marketing-trained CEOs bring truly unique advantages to leadership roles, particularly in today's customer-centric, digitally driven business environment.

00:01:26:14 - 00:02:00:05 Alison He's leading DCM's transformation from a traditional print company to a tech enabled marketing solutions provider, demonstrating how his marketing background provides crucial insights into customer needs as well as market trends and brand positioning. His career offers inspiration and practical guidance for many talented CMOs who aspire to CEO roles, but often find the path unclear. Richard's proved that with the right experiences, mindset shifts and strategic career moves, the transition from CMO to CEO is not only possible, but can be a very natural evolution for marketing leaders.

00:02:00:07 - 00:02:03:13 Alison Richard, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you today.

00:02:03:15 - 00:02:05:15 Richard Thanks for having me, Alison. Appreciate it.

00:02:05:17 - 00:02:18:15 Alison And Richard and I first met very early in our careers. He was at Molson and I was the VP at McLaren. McCann overseeing the Molson account. So it's been a long journey together. And Richard, it's been really amazing to watch your path.

00:02:18:17 - 00:02:21:10 Richard Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, it was a lot of fun working together many years ago.

00:02:21:12 - 00:02:30:16 Alison So I'd love you to take us to your first job in marketing and how you thought about your career. In those early days, did you ever consider the possibility of becoming a CEO?

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:54:23 Richard I'm not sure I even knew what CEO meant back then. So I guess the answer to your question is no. I never really thought it was, it was possible. My actually first job at university was in sales for a company called Playtex. Actually, I applied for the job, but I"m really gonna date myself here. But it was in a classified ad in the Globe and Mail, right?

00:02:55:02 - 00:03:13:18 Richard Who remembers that? And I applied for the job, went in and interviewed for it and successfully got the role. They actually had two divisions. They had a they called it a family products mission. They had an intimate apparel division, and I was hired for the intimate apparel division. So I'm sure people know the Playtex products in that division and started in sales. Had a combination of, key accounts.

00:03:13:18 - 00:03:33:16 Richard A lot of the accounts aren't even in the market anymore. Simpson's, Eaton's, Sears. Of course, none of those are around. Kmart, Woolworths, which Walmart acquired. And then I had a bunch of independent accounts in downtown Toronto as well. So I did that for the for the first year and thankfully ended up being quite successful. I actually won rookie of the year, which is quite fun.

00:03:33:16 - 00:03:43:16 Richard And then after one year I was moved into marketing and I was an assistant brand manager on a few brands in Playtex. So that was my start in my marketing journey, you know, quite a while ago in the mid 80s.

00:03:43:18 - 00:04:05:01 Alison I definitely remember the days of classified ads and all of the retailers you mentioned. So we're certainly of the same vintage. I also worked in sales earlier in my career, and I think it's such a powerful view to have, especially early in your career, and can really shape your approach to marketing. So building on that, what experience or skills did you gain in that first sales and marketing role that have served you well throughout your career?

00:04:05:03 - 00:04:31:12 Richard So the biggest skill I gained on the marketing side was the importance of data analytics in business intelligence, on the sales side as well. And this was a days where computers were just being introduced to business and nobody had their own personal computer. Back to my point where I won this, this rookie of the year sales award. Actually, I got a trip to Jamaica, so my wife and I went to Jamaica, and on that trip I read a book on how to use Excel.

00:04:31:14 - 00:04:44:23 Richard So I learned Excel from a from a book because I didn't have a computer. So I was sitting on a beach for the week, just reading about how to use Excel. And when I got back to the office, they had a computer room. So you didn't have a computer at your desk. You had a computer room. And I started to apply that

00:04:44:23 - 00:05:05:08 Richard learning to learn how to use Excel, because I knew that data analytics and business intelligence was extremely important in marketing or important in business. So I, I've been kind of a numbers guy or a data guy or an analyst guy or business intelligence guy, kind of for my whole career, using data and insights to create value for a business.

00:05:05:08 - 00:05:27:10 Richard So that was really defining, I'd say, point for me in my career, and it's certainly been kind of central to my skill and capability as I've progressed. And I'd say the other key competency or attribute, I'm, my archetype is an explorer. So I like to learn new things and see new things and discover new things. So I'm a very curious business leader as well.

00:05:27:10 - 00:05:39:14 Richard So curiosity, while I was in that sales role or in that early stage entry level marketing role, was an important competency and that really contributed to my success as well. In addition to the data analytics and business intelligence.

00:05:39:16 - 00:06:00:19 Alison Curiosity and the constantly learning is such a mission critical skill and mindset for anyone in marketing. I think it's always been the case, but given how the pace of change is accelerated around us, it is absolute mission critical. So following Playtex, you moved into the first of many marketing roles in the CPG industry, starting with Robin Hood Foods and then later Wrigley.

00:06:00:21 - 00:06:03:11 Alison What made that move possible for you?

00:06:03:13 - 00:06:23:07 Richard I actually worked for a guy who came out of, Procter and Gamble. So that was my first boss at Playtex, and he talked a lot about, you know, kind of the CPG space and the learning and the development and the skill and capability that they build. And so I thought, you know, I had this opportunity come by for Robin Hood Multifoods was a recruiter, headhunter that was calling me and talk to me about this role.

00:06:23:07 - 00:06:41:22 Richard So that was kind of an interesting role and, and a good opportunity for me to kind of expand my horizon into a new category. Interesting thing about Robin Hood, again, that was kind of my entry into CPG. But if you think about it, I was the brand manager on Robin Hood Flour. So you can't get a more commoditized business, right?

00:06:41:22 - 00:07:02:12 Richard Salt, sugar, flour those are all commodities. So to really understand the category and how to create value in a highly commoditized category was huge learning for me. And, and it was a lot of fun, actually, at the same time. And we had a really good run on Robin Hood Flour. The brand had a great success and proven that marketing does, you know, deliver value, especially in a highly commoditized category like that.

00:07:02:12 - 00:07:07:11 Richard Right. Brand is everything. So learned a lot there. And then obviously applied that learning as I progressed.

00:07:07:13 - 00:07:14:09 Alison And you went on to spend the bulk of your career in CPG. So what were the keys to your advancement and success?

00:07:14:11 - 00:07:35:11 Richard Yeah. Coming back to what I said earlier, you know, my curiosity, my explorer archetype, really kind of wanted to understand and discover new opportunities to build value in a business or value in a brand. Those, I'd say, would be my key success factors as I move through my career. Also, I was known as the "just do it" guy.

00:07:35:13 - 00:07:57:06 Richard In other words, I wasn't afraid to to do things and try things and not afraid to make mistakes. I always had a strong bias to action. Thankfully, I did more things right than wrong so that, that contributed to my success as well, but clearly made a lot of mistakes in my career as well and learned from those mistakes and then applied that learning to new, you know, to new activity moving forward.

00:07:57:08 - 00:08:13:05 Alison The "just do it" guy is so true of how I think of you. And that's a great personal brand. Is it also a part of why you went through really experience to three international assignments, starting with Malaysia, then India and then back to Malaysia? How did the initial opportunity for that arise?

00:08:13:07 - 00:08:44:21 Richard I was hired to Wrigley as a new products manager. So new brand matters, new products manager. And the first brand or product they worked on was a brand that Canadians will know. It's called Excel, right? Excel. Accelerate your breath. Excel. Okay, so that wasn't even a brand at the time. It was a concept. They had a they had a product concept, was a xylitol product that had long lasting flavour duration, but no brand at the time and really kind of no brand positioning, no concept, nothing.

00:08:44:21 - 00:09:03:22 Richard So I was hired as a new brand manager, and that got me a lot of exposure to the folks in Chicago. So the R&D team in Chicago and the development team in Chicago, as well as the marketing team obviously were sort of in North American marketing team because Canada was the first market to be considering this new product, and so we had to create a whole brand around it.

00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:04 Richard So as a result of that, I got some exposure and I was doing a sales meeting in Huntsville and Bill Wrigley Jr., so the son of Mr. Wrigley we called him, the son of the owner was responsible for Canada. The president of Canada reported to Bill Wrigley Jr. He happened to be at this meeting, and I just happened to talk to him and said, hey, listen Bill, and I had gotten connected with him prior, obviously, given the Excel project.

00:09:27:06 - 00:09:50:14 Richard And I said, listen, if you're ever interested in or need any help international, because he was responsible for international markets, then I'd be happy to help. And literally within two weeks I was on a plane to India. I had to renew my passport and get a visa and all that stuff within two weeks. I was on a plane to India to work on a marketing and sales feasibility study.

00:09:50:14 - 00:10:09:17 Richard You know, is it a market that Wrigley should enter? And if they entered, how would they enter from a sales and from a marketing standpoint? And then that moved on to me being part of a bigger team of supply chain and procurement and HR, to get to a final point where we recommended that we should enter India and here's how we should enter.

00:10:09:17 - 00:10:29:00 Richard And then I was selected to be the managing director of India. So it's called Wrigley India Private Limited. So I was part of the team, the guy that was said to set up the business and run the business. So that's how I got into international. And again, I was a new brand new product manager. Not a lot of experience at all at general management.

00:10:29:00 - 00:10:43:09 Richard So they wanted to give me some general management experience. And that's how I ended up in Malaysia. Malaysia was a small country where I could hone my skills and be trained to be a general manager prior to going into a larger opportunity in India.

00:10:43:10 - 00:11:09:21 Alison There's so much I love about this story, including creating your own opportunities, you don't ask you don't get, and also going internationally from the culture of Canada to Malaysia. There was obviously a big change, that culture shock, and it's challenging from a professional perspective. But you also have a wife, young family. So I'd love you to share with our listeners what were some of the challenges, both personally and professionally, in making those moves?

00:11:09:23 - 00:11:30:14 Richard Professionally, there weren't a lot of challenges. You know, because you work in an international organization and, you know, you get the support from the international teams as well. I'd say personally, certainly, you know, having great support from my wife, Sheila, and she rallied around it and thought, great opportunity to experience a new culture or experience a new country and, you know, have the kids experience a new, you know, a new country as well.

00:11:30:14 - 00:11:46:05 Richard At the same time, thinking about the the positives of the opportunity, I think this is really important, right? Thinking about the positives of the opportunity. There's always going to be challenges, especially making, you know, physical moves like that with as a family. But there's way more positives than there are negatives, not just from a career perspective, from a family,

00:11:46:05 - 00:12:05:14 Richard And I had to move a lot of people internationally in my career, right? Hire people from Canada or move them to Germany, or hire people from Germany or move, you know, move them to the UK. And I had so many times, you present an opportunity, then they go back to their family, say, hey, listen, I have this opportunity to move to, you know, move to China.

00:12:05:15 - 00:12:20:01 Richard Are you going to be okay with it? I know it's going to be tough. I know it's going to be hard for the children to move at this age. Right? So I had to do a lot of coaching. Here's what you want to do. You want to go back and say, I have this exciting opportunity, this is going to be outstanding. You're going to meet a lot of new people.

00:12:20:01 - 00:12:40:09 Richard We're going to be able to travel to a lot of new countries. You're going to experience, you know, a lot of diversity and a lot of learning. How you present it to your family, importantly, you know, if you've got children in the family as well, it's critically important. So yeah, I've always looked at the glass half full, half full leader and look at the positives about making international moves like that.

00:12:40:11 - 00:12:49:04 Richard And they were great. I mean I think of my kids today and the experiences they had, you know, moving through multiple countries and schooling and people they've met, they've got friends kind of all over the world.

00:12:49:06 - 00:12:56:22 Alison So, Richard, a lot of your career was spent internationally. You were clearly very successful in those roles. What do you attribute your success to?

00:12:57:00 - 00:13:18:17 Richard Again, a couple of comments I made earlier? One is around my curiosity and really kind of learning and understanding the different markets and the the environments that I was working in. Culture of the environment. So being super adaptable and obviously collaborating well with teams in the local markets as well as, as well as international teams that I was working with and then really recognizing the quality of the teams that I worked with.

00:13:18:18 - 00:13:38:12 Richard And, you know, not being a guy that just came in and thought he knew everything, right. I think it's a big problem that I've seen where, you know, you're hired into a new international market, and you know it all. I walked in thinking I knew nothing and working with the team to discover and explore and work with the team effectively to create value and and build the business over time.

00:13:38:12 - 00:14:02:08 Richard So I'd say that was probably my biggest strength is kind of that cultural understanding, if you will. You know, business culture is kind of similar around the world, but understanding the people culture within a market. I had an interesting point in my career. I was the president of the European Petcare business for Mars Incorporated. I was responsible for 16 markets, we had about 4200 associates in 14 factories.

00:14:02:08 - 00:14:23:09 Richard So markets like France and Switzerland and Austria, Germany, etc.. You know, when we had leadership meetings, you've got all these different cultures in that meeting. And the French culture, of course, is very different than the German culture, than the Spanish culture, and really kind of understanding how to work in that multicultural environment and valuing, you know, those multicultural environments as well.

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:39:23 Richard I'd say that that's where I was, you know, quite successful in my career. Made a lot of mistakes of course. I remember I got some good coaching from one of my leaders at the time. We were in an annual planning meeting. We called it Connect to Grow, where all the markets came in and presented their plans. France came in and Germany came in, and Spain came in.

00:14:40:00 - 00:14:56:00 Richard I made a comment. I think it was the French, it was the French team, about look, you missed your plan the last couple of years. Why do you guys think this is a plan you're going to beat this year? And, I said it probably a little bit more directly than I just said it here. And then I got a little coaching moment after which, Richard, it's not what you say.

00:14:56:00 - 00:15:05:08 Richard It's how you say it. So I remember that today, and I think about that as I, sort of move through my career and to different, you know, different cultures and different situations.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:28:14 Alison That's such great advice for anyone listening in. A great reminder for me as well. The other thing that really resonates for me that you've shared a few times is you're open to making mistakes. The only way you can stretch your thinking and really advance the business is recognize there's a lot you don't know, regardless of how senior you are, and that we're going to make mistakes along the way and making it safe for you and your teams to make those mistakes.

00:15:28:14 - 00:15:46:06 Alison Learn quickly and then ensure that the same mistakes aren't happening again. Now, I'm sure we've got listeners who are very interested in following in your international pathway, would be very open to working in global roles. So what advice would you give anyone that's listening in pursuing those roles?

00:15:46:08 - 00:16:07:22 Richard Well, look, I think first of all, Canadians are really well positioned to be successful internationally. We're really well positioned, because as a Canadian marketer, you've got to be really adaptable. You got to understand how to collaborate. You're working with a lot of cultures, even in your organization. Think of, Canada's grown through immigration, right? So think of the teams that you're working with.

00:16:08:00 - 00:16:38:20 Richard You're already working with international teams. And you know, the fact that the market is relatively small forces us to be resourceful at stretching budgets and really understanding precision and finding new creative ways to be successful or punch above your weight. So Canadians can be very, very, very successful. In fact, you know, when I was at Mars Incorporated, we had a lot of Canadians in international markets and extreme success, like really easy to move a Canadian into a new market.

00:16:39:01 - 00:17:07:16 Richard So I would say, look, if you're interested, then pursue that interest, right? Pursue the interest, find the right people to talk to you, to have the right conversations, either in your company or in companies that could be interesting to you. And there'll be opportunities there. I can tell you that there are so many large CPG companies that are looking for international people to help them fill opportunities in their global markets, whether they're in you know, the European markets or their Asian markets or any of their markets globally.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:22:03 Richard A lot of the growth is coming from international expansion for these large CPGs or even outside of CPG. Right? So go after it. So there's a ton of opportunity just, you know, getting connected to the right people and having the right conversations, either in your organization or in other organizations.

00:17:22:04 - 00:17:43:06 Alison That's great. It goes back to your Bill Wrigley Jr. conversation. If you hadn't taken a couple minutes to let him know your interest, you never would have had the opportunity. So you started your career in Canada. Then you worked internationally for several decades, and now you've come back home. It gives you a really unique lens on marketers and marketing in Canada, so I'd love you to share in your experience

00:17:43:08 - 00:17:54:04 Alison how do you think Canadian marketers compare to our global peers? You've talked a bit about some of our unique strengths, so I'd love to hear if there's any others. And then do you see any gaps or opportunities where we should be improving?

00:17:54:06 - 00:18:17:20 Richard Canadian arketers generally are far more adaptable, little scrappier, I'd say, you know, given the smaller size of the marketplace, having to work with lower budgets and be able to stretch those budgets to be more resourceful. I think a lot more connected obviously, into the trade as well. Certainly on the CPG side, I think we breed efficient and instinctive marketers that have a lot of curiosity and agility.

00:18:17:22 - 00:18:33:21 Richard I mean, there's other markets that are very similar. I think Australia has kind of a similar market as well, and I'd say some of the skills and capabilities and attributes of an Australian marketer would be very similar to Canadian, but again, very different say, than the U.S. market given the size and scale and have a much, you know, deeper and narrow skill set.

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:43:08 Alison When I was working on an international brand we used to, and working with the U.S. in particular, we would always joke, it's like, there were three people in the U.S. doing a third of the job that we had in Canada.

00:18:43:13 - 00:18:44:05 Richard Yeah, exactly.

00:18:44:09 - 00:18:47:11 Alison Which creates some opportunities for us for sure.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:48:04 Richard Yeah.

00:18:48:06 - 00:19:10:23 Alison Now I want to go back to your non-linear career path. So in moving to Mars, where you spent nearly half your career, you transitioned from marketing director in Canada through a series of leadership roles at the country, regional levels in Europe, and then to a global role as the Chief Customer Officer. So what transferable skills contributed to your success and ability to step into that Chief Customer Officer role?

00:19:12:22 - 00:19:29:06 Richard So, you know, as a marketer, obviously, you know, in Canada you've got to be well-connected to the trade. You know, I started in sales, of course, and then sales was always a key part of my responsibility, even as a marketer. Has to be in any market, but especially the Canadian market. And my commercial experience was pretty robust.

00:19:29:06 - 00:19:50:22 Richard I'd say, you know, always had that kind of interest in sales and been connected to sales all the way through my career. How I ended up becoming the Global Chief Customer Officer for Mars Incorporated was Mars bought Wrigley, and it was a $23 billion acquisition, and there were about 22 or 23 people doing their due diligence. And I was the most senior of the 23.

00:19:51:00 - 00:20:15:16 Richard I was the President of the European Petcare business for Mars Incorporated. So how I ended up in that role was they wanted to have somebody that had experience from both companies, understood the Wrigley culture, understood the Mars culture, so that we could help bring the two companies together. And the toughest is bringing the two companies together on the sales side, right, because you're competitors

00:20:15:16 - 00:20:40:18 Richard And now you've got to be collaborators. Literally, Mars and Wrigley were direct competitors, so now they've got to be collaborators and you've got teams that are coming together. So that's why I was put into that role, to help on the post-merger integration, especially on the commercial side, on the sales side, and work with sales teams around the world to design a new org structure and then culturally, you know, move from competitors to collaborators.

00:20:40:18 - 00:20:43:17 Richard It was quite a great role. I did it for five years.

00:20:43:19 - 00:20:56:12 Alison So in many ways, and clearly I have a bias that CMOs are really ideally suited to the CEO role, yet surprisingly few achieve it. So what do you credit your success in earning the CEO title to?

00:20:56:14 - 00:21:32:01 Richard The key success for me is really kind of, aside from curiosity, which I already discussed, and adaptability and versatility in my career, is really understanding the key drivers of value, I'd say. Whether that's pricing or channel strategy or operational efficiency or innovation, you know, I've always been a growth guy, been a growth leader. So understanding those key drivers of how to drive growth and how to drive, you know, efficiency and productivity at same time, that's what contributed to my success to, you know, get into that CEO role through my career.

00:21:32:03 - 00:21:47:00 Alison So let's fast forward to today. In your first CEO role at DCM, you are leading a significant transformation from a primarily print to a very tech-enabled digital solution. What were your priorities and taking on the CEO role at the public company?

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:13:13 Richard Well, my first priority is to figure out what we did as a company, right? So like, data communication management, when I arrived in the organization, I'll put it in a marketing context for a second because I think it's kind of a fun story. They had a brand tagline that said DCM, the brand behind the brand. Okay? Sso as a marketer, I thought, what is the brand behind the brand, like what's DCM all about?

00:22:13:13 - 00:22:37:19 Richard So I asked a question of the marketing team, of the sales team of, you know, senior leaders. I said, okay, what is the brand behind the brand? What is, what is it that DCM does? And nobody could give me an answer. Okay, I couldn't get a clear answer. I'd ask ten people, I'd get ten different answers. So really didn't understand what DCM's unique selling proposition or what their value to their clients was at the time.

00:22:37:19 - 00:23:00:20 Richard So went through a whole discovery phase and actually what we discovered was, it was staring us in the face. We create a lot of value to large, highly complex enterprises , right? The more complexity an enterprise has in their marketing operations or their marketing communications or their marketing workflows, the more value we can bring to that client. We play at the enterprise level.

00:23:00:23 - 00:23:17:08 Richard If it's a little simple project, there's no value we can add. There's lots of guys that can do that. So that was a big part of our discovery and you know, again, I used my marketing skills I developed over the years to help go through this discovery phase. And we ended up with a very simple copy line.

00:23:17:08 - 00:23:41:07 Richard And now when we go to market and we talk to clients, we talk about where we can help, which is helping take waste out, simplify complexity, drive value. So that was the first and most important thing that I did when I joined DCM was just to understand who we are, what we were, what's our unique selling proposition? What's our go to market strategy. Now on that part of a big part of simplifying complexity,

00:23:41:07 - 00:24:01:02 Richard I think this is the second part of your question, means you need automation, right? You need digital solutions to be able to automate workflow, to take waste out. And that's where the whole kind of digital transformation came in. But it came in from really understanding our brand, the value we bring and what we needed to be able to deliver against that value.

00:24:01:04 - 00:24:23:07 Richard And we actually had some very good digital solutions we're building for years in the company. But we were thinking like a printing company, not like a digital company, not like a company to help simplify complexity. So those now came to the forefront as part of our unique selling proposition. We've got these incredible digital solutions to help you solve your complexity in your workflow, in your marketing operations, whatever.

00:24:23:09 - 00:24:28:04 Richard And that's how we, you know, kind of lean in hard to the, to the Martech side, to the digital side.

00:24:28:06 - 00:24:40:17 Alison Now, another thing that you've done is successfully completed a major acquisition two years ago. So what steps did you take to bring together two companies again, who were competitors with different cultures and histories?

00:24:40:18 - 00:25:07:07 Richard Yeah. So we we purchased our biggest competitor. We went from, I think, at the time when I joined, 235 million in revenue, up to 480 last year. So a sizeable transaction that we did. And, I remember again, my experience back from my Mars days when Mars acquired Wrigley. How do you move from competitors to collaborators? And on day one, we had a full program and we called it Bigger and Better Together, moving from competitors to collaborators.

00:25:07:08 - 00:25:32:11 Richard And we had every team across the country together for 9:00 in the morning to start our Better Together programming. So that was, I'd say, a key marker right from day one that we are going to be better together, we are moving from competitors to collaborators, and we had a whole program around that cultural immersion and understanding the values of DCM, the values obviously, of the company we acquired.

00:25:32:13 - 00:25:52:11 Richard Yeah, that kind of, that started the program was kind of a funny story. We had everybody together and we hadn't announced it to the public markets yet because we were waiting for the money to arrive, I don't know, it was going through international, you know, transfer somewhere and we had everybody together 9:00, ready to kick this thing off. Nobody knew why they were together.

00:25:52:11 - 00:26:12:18 Richard And it was like a high school dance. You had the R.R. Donnelley guys on one side. You had the DCM people on the other side and not really talking to each other because they didn't know why they were there. And finally at about 9:10, we got confirmation that the the money had arrived in their bank account and we could announce a deal publicly.

00:26:12:22 - 00:26:30:03 Richard We needed to announce it publicly first before we actually kicked off the internal session. So, it was a little stressful moment there of time, by the way, we were supposed to close the night before and have this event the next morning, but the money got stuck in time zones, right?

00:26:30:05 - 00:26:34:05 Alison Best laid plans. That would have been, that ten minutes must have felt like two hours.

00:26:34:07 - 00:26:47:07 Richard But back to your question, we had we had a very intentional and, you know, Better Together, moving from competitors to collaborators and a whole program around that kind of a couple of years in. But, we've got a very good team.

00:26:47:09 - 00:26:56:22 Alison It's also amazing. Like, you didn't leave them any time to, to fret and worry. It was like, as soon as it was public, they were in a room together. They were working together. They were part of making it work together. Now you're also leveraging AI to evolve and accelerate the more traditional business, which certainly is a challenge that many of our listeners are also grappling with. So can you share a couple of ways that AI is impacting your offering?

00:27:12:05 - 00:27:32:13 Richard We're all in on AI. I mean, we've, we're super active, obviously. Back to the discussion we had earlier about the importance of Martech and simplifying complexity. If we're not using it ourselves, how can we add value to our clients? But, so we're using our ourselves for new business development. A lot of lead gen and script writing, RFP optimization, a big part of our business, especially government, comes from through RFPs.

00:27:32:13 - 00:27:57:11 Richard So we can now optimize and look at RFPs that we won in the past and what's worked and what hasn't. We can use automation or AI to help us script write and improve our capability to win. We use a lot for file management. This is a service we bring to clients as well. We've got a platform called Assemble, which is a fully AI-enabled digital asset management solution. A big problem that we had and a big problem a lot of our clients have is actually finding files, right.

00:27:57:13 - 00:28:21:20 Richard And then sharing files as well. So we built a solution that's fully AI-enabled that takes, you know, all that meta tagging, that manual tagging out, makes discovering and finding super efficient. We also use it for social media optimization. We've got a platform called Zavvi and it will look at your social campaign, what's working, what's not working, make recommendations to improve, or when to post and all that stuff. So we're all in on AI across our business.

00:28:21:20 - 00:28:41:11 Richard And I mean, it's not a single day we're not talking about it and learning from it. And I'll give you one other example. We just built a new website for ourselves, not for a client. And historically, to build a website, you'd hire a company, whether you'd hire us or another company, and you'd probably spend 100, maybe 200 grand, depending on how extensive you want it to go.

00:28:41:11 - 00:29:05:20 Richard And you'd probably use WordPress and the images on that website you'd either create original photography or you would use an image bank and license. We just built a new site and won't say what it is, but you'll see it soon. And we actually used a freelancer in Berlin. We used protocol framers. When you use WordPress, it gives you a lot more capability to be able to make changes on your own.

00:29:06:02 - 00:29:25:13 Richard And the imagery that we used, which is super powerful and crazy, impactful imagery, is all AI-generated imagery. And, you know, that's imagery that you'd have to photograph yourself or use an image bank. And it's all, you know, best in class AI-generated. So there's an example. And we did it for kind of a third of what you typically pay for a website.

00:29:25:15 - 00:29:32:01 Richard So there's a whole new, you know, skill that we've learned as well as we've continued down our AI discovery path.

00:29:32:03 - 00:29:51:08 Alison Those are great examples. Finding a file seems like such a simple thing, but it's amazing, especially in a bigger organization, how much time you waste and how much frustration you create. So leveraging AI through DCM from an efficiency play, those are all great examples. So this has been a wonderful conversation. I know you're super busy and I appreciate you making the time. Before I let you go,

00:29:51:08 - 00:29:58:09 Alison for our listeners who are considering a non-linear versus traditional career path, what's one piece of advice that you would leave?

00:29:58:11 - 00:30:22:20 Richard I've got one piece of advice and I want to give you a little piece of information I discovered when I was researching for this podcast today. But, be curious in your career, certainly embrace versatility and adaptability as well. I'd say those are the key and core competencies to think about as you think about progressing your career. And I do want to read you this and I found this on, it was a Forbes article, came up when I put it in ChatGPT actually to ask about non-linear career.

00:30:22:20 - 00:30:49:19 Richard I didn't even know people talked about non-linear careers, which is interesting. So very topical. And here's what it reads. I think this is important. Non-linear careers in the future. The evidence suggests non-linear careers will become increasingly common and necessary in the coming decades. In a world of rapid change, think AI, the ability to adapt, pivot and reinvent your professional identity isn't just beneficial, it will be essential.

00:30:49:21 - 00:30:57:12 Richard I think that sums up nicely about, you know, the importance of how to be successful and how to, you know, why non-linear careers are the future.

00:30:57:14 - 00:31:19:19 Alison I absolutely agree, I also love the skills that you talked about. They're not technical hard skills. They're all around mindset and adaptability and those, you may call them soft skills, they're really power skills. And when we think about how quickly the world and our profession is changing, it will be those power skills, more than any technical skills that will set you up for a long term and successful career.

00:31:19:21 - 00:31:21:15 Richard You know, excellent point. Yeah.

00:31:21:17 - 00:31:26:19 Alison So Richard thoroughly loved the conversation. And thank you again. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

00:31:27:01 - 00:31:33:04 Richard Thanks for the opportunity, Alison. Appreciate it.

00:31:33:06 - 00:31:45:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What does it take to transform how an entire country thinks about sleep? In this episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President, Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada. Nuno is the Brazilian-born, Canadian-made marketing leader behind Sleep Country Canada's cultural transformation. From his family's creative agency roots in Brazil to building brand portfolios that balance legacy with bold innovation, Nuno shares why curiosity beats caution, how to fail fast and iterate faster, and what Sleep Country's acquisition of UK's Simba Sleep reveals about scaling values across borders.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:43:06 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a story that in many ways embodies the modern Canadian dream. From a 16-year old Brazilian exchange student in small town Ontario to the marketing executive who's transforming one of Canada's most beloved brands. I'm thrilled to welcome Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President of Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada, to our podcast today.

00:00:43:08 - 00:01:07:22 Alison Nuno oversees marketing strategies for Sleep Country, Dormez-Vous, Bloom, Endy, Hush, Casper and Silk and Snow, as well as the new retail store, the rest. His Canadian story began at age 16 as an exchange student in Bracebridge, Ontario, an experience that planted the seeds for his eventual emigration to Canada with his family as an adult. This was driven by his belief in both Canadian values as well as the opportunities our country represents.

00:01:08:00 - 00:01:37:06 Alison Like me, Nuno started his career at agencies before moving to the brand side. Before he joined Sleep Country Canada and spent nine years as the SVP, Chief Content and Production Officer at Publicis Group Canada, where he helped nearly double the agency's size while working with iconic brands like The Home Depot, Rogers and Canadian Tire. Since making the move to Sleep Country in 2023, Nuno has been transforming how Canadians think about sleep, elevating it well beyond a commodity purchase to a critical component of our health and wellness.

00:01:37:08 - 00:02:06:20 Alison Today, we'll explore how Nuno is driving this cultural shift around sleep and wellness, and redefining what it means to honour legacy while embracing bold innovations in today's dynamic and, at times, very challenging retail landscape. This week, his team launched their latest innovation, and Nuno will share a bit about what led to the bold new approach. So whether you're interested in the agency to client career transition, or how an established Canadian brand can innovate while honouring their legacy, today's conversation promises to both be inspiring and actionable.

00:02:06:22 - 00:02:09:01 Alison Without further ado, welcome, Nuno.

00:02:09:03 - 00:02:18:01 Nuno Thank you. And for the CMA and CMA Connect team for having me today. I'm excited to be here sharing a little bit about myself, my journey to Canada, and my professional experience in Canada.

00:02:18:03 - 00:02:25:20 Alison So, you know, I would love to start by having you share what brought you from Brazil to Canada originally, and why you chose Canada over so many other countries.

00:02:25:22 - 00:02:53:15 Nuno The first time I came to Canada, as you mentioned, it was when I was 16 years of age. And frankly, at that time, I was really focused on going somewhere where I didn't know anyone. I know it was a little weird, but that's really what I wanted. I wanted to go somewhere where I had no family, no friends, no safety net, and that would force me just to get out of my comfort zone and quite frankly, immerse myself fully into a new culture, a new language, daily habits, daily rituals, and an entire new way of life, if you will.

00:02:53:16 - 00:03:10:14 Nuno And I've always been that way. I always been incredibly curious about people in general. Like I always, as a kid, saw myself observing someone down the street and kind of pictured in my brain, what do they come from? What do they do? What's their background? And so I want to live that myself, because I had family in the U.S., that ruled out the U.S. all together.

00:03:10:16 - 00:03:33:22 Nuno I really wanted us, you know, clean slate, not a soft landing. And so I didn't want to fall back into the Portuguese, nor, because I didn't know English all that well, I wanted to fall back into my comfort zone. And so Canada became an obvious choice because it allowed me to grow, to expand, find a new version of myself if that makes sense, while also being able to encounter a new culture, which was something fairly new to me.

00:03:34:00 - 00:03:54:08 Nuno And what quickly stood out to me was the Canadian people. As a 16 year old going to Bracebridge at that time, there was no Google, there was no bing, there was Ask Jeeves. I knew nothing about Bracebridge, nor Canada, and within the week I knew everyone. And so the incredible kindness and open-mindedness with which Canadians received me at that time kind of stuck with me.

00:03:54:08 - 00:04:10:16 Nuno And so the second time I thought about leaving Brazil, fast forward to 2015, we had just had our second child a year before, and when my wife and I were in the decision of do we want to raise a family outside of Brazil, we have family in the U.S., so that felt like a natural place to go to. And my wife had never been to Canada before.

00:04:10:16 - 00:04:27:12 Nuno So I said to her, let me talk to you about Canada a little bit and the experience of what it is to go to a country where you know no one and no one knows you, but you are incredibly welcome and well-received, despite of your background and your own walk of life. And so we made the decision to come to Canada together.

00:04:27:12 - 00:04:50:06 Nuno I've been here now for ten years, and there's something about Canada kind of stays with you and has stayed with me since I was 16. And most importantly, quite frankly it molded me in many, many ways. So I always say that I was Brazilian-born and Canadian-made is because in many ways, the parts got assembled in Canada and made me a better human and I would say a better marketer, hopefully from all my experiences in Canada.

00:04:50:08 - 00:05:09:00 Alison That's an incredibly brave move as an adult. At 16, it's one of those pivotal times where we're all sort of figuring ourselves out. So for you to pick up and leave everything you knew and transplant yourself deliberately in small town Canada was very brave and certainly speaks to, I suspect, part of what has made you such a successful marketer as well.

00:05:09:01 - 00:05:23:03 Alison And then when you moved with your family to Toronto, I grew up in small town Ontario, so I like to think that we're the most welcoming part of Canada, Toronto isn't always as welcoming, but I'd love to hear what your experience and your family's experience was coming to Toronto.

00:05:23:05 - 00:05:45:10 Nuno That's an incredible observation. Yes, I think moving to a small town, Bracebridge, at 16, was a lot easier in many ways than it was moving to Canada with an entire family and different pressures too, because when I came, my wife didn't speak the language. She was leaving behind a pretty successful career in advertising in Brazil. There were a lot more baggages and pressures that came with the move itself.

00:05:45:12 - 00:06:09:00 Nuno What made it unique to being Toronto versus that small town Canada, to your point, was while it was, everything was very foreign to my wife and family at the same time, everything was very accessible. So having access to different cultures and most importantly, actually a little piece of Brazil already existed in Canada. There's a part of Toronto where it's a lot of Portuguese bakeries, Portuguese grocery shops, Brazilian grocery shops, Brazilian bakeries and restaurants.

00:06:09:02 - 00:06:30:18 Nuno So that helped her get acclimated to Canada a lot easier than not. But certainly, to your point, took a lot longer to get accustomed to the life in Canada at a big city where you don't have that neighbour just down the street, you can knock on the door of. It made it a little harder for us. But still, what I can say remain the same was the open-mindedness that Canadians have.

00:06:30:20 - 00:06:49:00 Nuno And I think that's because of the very diverse cultural background that we all have in Canada remain the same. People were still very welcoming to the fact that she was learning the language, my kids were learning the language. We're all acclimated to the culture. The open-mindedness was still the same. The access to people was a bit more far removed because it was a bigger city.

00:06:49:02 - 00:06:57:03 Nuno But people's innate open-mindedness and kindness were still pretty much the same as it were many, many years ago when I was in small town Bracebridge.

00:06:57:05 - 00:07:17:12 Alison So as Canadians, we'd like to pride ourselves on being open-minded, welcoming and being a cultural mosaic. So for me, as a longstanding Canadian, it's really rewarding to hear that you, as someone newer to our country, found that both in your teen years, but also bringing your your family back to Canada ten years ago, so... happy 10th anniversary, by the way.

00:07:17:16 - 00:07:19:23 Nuno Thank you. Thank you. I'm very proud to be here.

00:07:20:01 - 00:07:30:01 Alison When we first met, you had mentioned that you were born into the creative agency world with family that worked in the business in Brazil. How do you think that foundation really influenced your career path?

00:07:30:03 - 00:07:55:10 Nuno Well great question. Yeah, creativity and creative in general ran deep into my household. My dad and my older brother are both in the business back home, and not only are they in the business, they led the business in many, many ways in the sense that both of them founded agencies themselves, ran them very successfully, as well as had some very successful large holding company careers as well, establishing themselves in top of the mind game in Brazil, if you will.

00:07:55:12 - 00:08:14:14 Nuno But the biggest difference what it was and was really interesting is that they were very separated and in very different ends of the spectrum from an advertising perspective. My father was always the relationship type of guy who knew through art, craft, words and communication how to touch the human heart. And he was really the art in the science.

00:08:14:14 - 00:08:32:06 Nuno And my brother was the science in the art. He was always very much data, how to understand structures, technology. In the early days of the bubble of the internet in Brazil, he was already at the forefront of that. So growing up in that world, I guess, gave me this duality that was very interesting of how I interact with the world.

00:08:32:06 - 00:08:53:10 Nuno But in advertising specifically, where I look at creativity with rigour, I look at storytelling, but with strategy and this notion of leveraging data, which was the language of businesses, how business are built around, but using then storytelling as a language of humans, and how you bring the two together to tell more, more powerful, engaging and important stories, if that makes sense.

00:08:53:12 - 00:09:13:15 Nuno And ultimately, what I feel is that because creative and creativity was such a part of my upbringing and also runs in my veins day to day, that allows me today in this world that I'm in, to actually put the work second, if that makes sense. Meaning, of course, the creative expression of the work at the end of the day is how we as a marketing team at Sleep Country addresses ourselves to the world.

00:09:13:17 - 00:09:44:22 Nuno But what I focus on today is actually empowering and nurturing the people behind the work, and trusting that by ensuring that they feel recognized, seen, heard, and incentivized and most importantly, greatly appreciated, that the work becomes an intelligent expression of all that they've built together to that point. And so I think I've gotten that benefit of being raised with creativity and making creativity not something I'm chasing, but rather a part of empowering people to deliver on it naturally, almost organically, if that makes sense.

00:09:45:00 - 00:10:06:06 Alison Beyond making sense, that's the perfect recipe in many ways to succeed in marketing today. Equal measures of the right and left brain, appreciating that we are only successful as the teams and relationships and people that we mentor and help grow. So I hope you have had the chance to thank your parents for the incredible foundation that they've given you, as well as a passion for the career.

00:10:06:08 - 00:10:26:12 Nuno Very true. My father and my mother both, and my dad even more so, were very maniacally focused on us learning different languages and knowledge because especially growing up in Brazil, their whole schtick always was, if we leave you with any sort of structure, we don't know, but if we leave you knowledge, we'll leave you access. And so that has stuck with me forever, and it's a way of guiding my life today.

00:10:26:14 - 00:10:43:08 Alison We also really bonded on sharing our agency experience, and we both really loved the agency pace and thrived in it. So what ultimately convinced you to make the move to client side? And since making the move, what's been the biggest surprise after 25 years in agencies?

00:10:43:10 - 00:11:04:20 Nuno That is so true, like and honestly, when I say I thrived in the agency pace, I really did. The pace, the pressure the magic of building something brand new from literally nothing. I loved it, and frankly, I never thought of myself as a quote unquote client. I just didn't. It wasn't the cards for me. My dad was a client, but I never really saw that side of him.

00:11:05:02 - 00:11:36:17 Nuno My brother was never a client, so I was just an agency guy. But through my conversations with Stewart, who was my client for nearly four years before he became my boss, that's our CEO Stewart Schaefer, through our many conversations, and we spoke for about a year, there was specifically one moment towards the end of our conversation before I signed and moved over, in which he looked at me and he said, your function is going to be marketing, but your true role is helping me reshape the business along with your SOT peers. And having worked with Stewart as a client for so many years,

00:11:36:17 - 00:11:56:07 Nuno at that point, I knew exactly what that meant in his eyes. And so when he said that, I knew it wasn't just a job offer, it was a calling. It was a very unique opportunity to be a part of reshaping something that was already successful into something even bigger, that had a longer lasting effect. And that, to me, was the way to seal the deal, if that makes sense.

00:11:56:09 - 00:12:20:17 Nuno And what surprised me the most, quite frankly, Alison, is that I saw a lot more depth than I thought. Having spent 20 plus years on the agency side, on the outside, the brand side of the business may have seemed to me for the longest time, that it was all about structure and access layers and unnecessary complexity. And honestly, sometimes it is, I think as brands and businesses, we have to look at that at times too, and and admit it.

00:12:20:19 - 00:12:55:07 Nuno But what I also realize is there's a lot of purpose behind it. I found a lot of true purpose behind every action. And what I mean by that is I found myself all of a sudden no longer looking to shape ideas, but rather shape outcomes. And that was a very different way of looking at things that surprised me quite a lot. And quite frankly, just the ability of opening up your world to an entire new learning set; supply chain, logistics, organizational design, product design, so on and so forth, and utilizing all of that knowledge to truly serve consumers and the audience in the other end, tailored to the needs and wants they have

00:12:55:07 - 00:12:57:18 Nuno with more intent and meaning than I had before.

00:12:57:20 - 00:13:04:04 Alison So building on that, what advice would you give to other marketing professionals who are considering making the move from agency to client?

00:13:04:06 - 00:13:22:15 Nuno Yeah, that's the toughest one, because in Brazil we have a saying that says, if advice was any good, people would sell it to you. So take this from a very honest, truthful, personal experience perspective. But what I want to say is the reason why it took me so long to make the decisions, that I wanted to make sure I knew the why.

00:13:22:17 - 00:13:41:10 Nuno I had incredible clarity on, as to why am I making this transition. And at the end of the day, I didn't want to leave the agency life because I was tired or because the pace was too intense. That's kind of obvious. But was the pace intense because of me or because of the environment? So I need to go searching for that answer.

00:13:41:12 - 00:13:58:07 Nuno And at the end of the day, what I decided upon is that I wanted to leave because I was ready to have a different kind of impact to my career, a different one than the one that I had up until that point. And so what I can say is that brand side isn't easier, it's just a very different kind of heart, if that makes sense.

00:13:58:09 - 00:14:16:01 Nuno All the wins are a lot slower, but they're also deeper. You will learn to think beyond the brief itself, you know, think about all the other things that entices a product to the consumer, be it operations, supply chain, org design, product development and so much more that you didn't touch before. And now it's part of your world.

00:14:16:03 - 00:14:38:08 Nuno And that all opens up to a lot of learnings. And so at first, you're going to feel like that's far removed from your experience. You may have even a little bit of imposter syndrome. That's okay. I personally felt that. But if you're incredibly curious, collaborative and open and ready to grow in different ways and experience different things, it's going to be one of the most rewarding experiences you could possibly have.

00:14:38:08 - 00:14:56:20 Nuno At least it was for me. And once you get there, though, what I would say is do not lose your agency instinct because the agency instinct of being biased for action and having resilience, of having grit and having hustle and an incredible "can do" mentality, more often than not, is what brands need to move forward.

00:14:57:00 - 00:15:21:12 Alison That is absolutely excellent advice. Well said. So in many ways, the retail industry, of all the client side opportunities, retail is one of the faster-paced, challenging and ever-changing. We've certainly in Canada see some long standing retailers, HBC being the obvious most recent example, ultimately fail. Sleep Country is absolutely bucking the trend, hugely successful for 30 years.

00:15:21:12 - 00:15:29:08 Alison While many other retailers haven't been, so what do you think some of the attributes are for Sleep Country's sustained success in Canada?

00:15:29:10 - 00:16:01:02 Nuno I think a big part of it, quite frankly, is this entrepreneurial culture, mindset and spirit that's been with us from day one until now. The company was built, be it Christine Magee at Sleep Country, be it Dormez-Vous by Stewart Schaefer, by entrepreneurs, by heart. And so because of that mindset in nature, we have always been encouraged to believe in the power of curiosity, innovation, listening deeply to our customers and knowing to never be afraid to try something new.

00:16:01:04 - 00:16:35:19 Nuno And that mindset hasn't really changed, in fact, has been evolved further, where we live to this motto of try, always, learn constantly, fail fast and iterate a lot faster. And I think that has been a bit of the secret sauce in many, many ways. However, there's another component to it, which is that obsession for consumer experience. If you think about it, for 30 plus years now, there hasn't been any other retailer in Canada, at least not of our size, that has been solely focused on sleep, solely focused on that experience that we can give Canadians of awakening themselves to the power of sleep.

00:16:36:00 - 00:16:56:21 Nuno And I think that dedication has never gone away. And we look at every little moment through that lens. So from the way someone's researching online, to how they feel when they walk into our stores, or how they feel when they're going through our self-serve channels or website or our dream line to how their mattress gets delivered. Every single step, every single connection point is well thought out,

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:18:12 Nuno to ensure that the reflection of what we believe in and the core values of our brand stay the same. And we never settle, Alison, we're always chasing for more. Because the biggest challenge of being the only one in the space to do this is that we set our own standards. And when you set your own standards, there's never an end line, there's always content, excuse me, constant pursuit of excellence.

00:17:18:14 - 00:17:41:15 Nuno And lastly, but certainly not least, the people. Without a doubt, our people are the secret sauce. And we may say that folks may leave our stores and not know or remember what brand they buy, but they know exactly who they bought it from. Because the folks on the front line, the folks serving you in the store, through our customer service or through the delivery system, they are the true representation of the brand and how you engage with the brand.

00:17:41:20 - 00:17:45:12 Nuno And we pay incredible attention in detail to that.

00:17:45:14 - 00:18:07:20 Alison Our last purchase was from Sleep Country, and you're absolutely right. The calibre of knowledge with your retail staff and how consumer-focused they are is, a real differentiator. So congratulations. Because having worked in retail myself, that's not always easy to deliver. Now, acquisitions have also played a key role in your growth with Casper, Hush, Endy, Silk and Snow,

00:18:07:22 - 00:18:13:01 Alison And now Simba Sleep in the UK. So I'd love you to share a bit more about what led to that strategy.

00:18:13:03 - 00:18:42:00 Nuno Yeah, absolutely. Again, I think it comes down to that innate culture of innovation and deep customer focus. And I think while I wasn't at Sleep Country, obviously, through all of those acquisitions, I sat in the sidelines as a partner of Sleep Country, observing what was happening. And I think it all comes from this deep belief that we always had that there's no one size fits all solution to how Canadians sleep, quite frankly. And be it their needs, their lifestyle, their preferences, they're all different.

00:18:42:02 - 00:18:59:01 Nuno And so in our minds, our job has always been and continues to be to meet Canadians where they are and help them make their journey to better asleep, quite frankly, more attainable, and more accessible. And no matter how and where they want to shop or choose to shop, we want to be there for them. And for us,

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:27:19 Nuno what that meant was building a true brand portfolio that could offer different value propositions, different voices, and different paths, while always being rooted in the same notion of quality, trust, with parallel expertise and innovation. So be it Casper, Endy, Hush and Silk and Snow or now, Simba, to your point. While each of them serves a distinct audience, they are all united by a shared commitment to helping people sleep better day in, day out.

00:19:27:20 - 00:19:35:15 Alison You know your recent acquisition of Simba Sleep in the UK is fascinating. Why was the UK selected rather than the typical choice of the U.S.?

00:19:35:17 - 00:19:53:13 Nuno Yeah, I can definitely touch on that. Look, when we looked at a path for expansion, if you will, we didn't want to follow necessarily a pre-written playbook. I think we wanted to do what we always have done, which is to lead with the same purpose and precision that our business was built on. So the UK itself stood out to us for a few different reasons.

00:19:53:18 - 00:20:21:01 Nuno I think first and foremost, a very digitally innovative advance as well as branch forward market. And in the case of Simba specifically, Simba was already a high- performing, highly-recognized and leading brand in the space. Of course, they had a pretty strong, already direct consumer presence, as well as a fantastic product and a pretty loyal customer base. But I think for us, Alison, quite frankly, and most importantly, the shared values that they carry, were core to the same values that we carry.

00:20:21:05 - 00:20:43:07 Nuno So again, the focus on innovation, exceptional service, genuine passion and helping people sleep better is something that gravitated us towards Simba. And our CEO always likes to say that we are always razor-focused on developing and delivering exceptional customer experience when it comes to sleep globally. We don't look only within our walls, we want to look outside of our walls.

00:20:43:09 - 00:21:05:15 Nuno The UK made a lot of sense because of that. And what we saw in Simba was not only just a great business, but was actually a pretty perfect cultural and a strategic fit because it's led by fantastic people who cares deeply about what they do in the experience they provide to consumers. And it gave us to a point a meaningful pathway to expansion while allowing us to stay true to our DNA.

00:21:05:17 - 00:21:17:23 Nuno It doesn't mean we have ruled out any other expansions into any other regions, but at the moment, it just felt that both the UK and Simba were very much aligned to our core values. And as a business, as a brand and as people, it made a ton of sense for us to invest in it.

00:21:18:01 - 00:21:25:10 Alison And for our listeners, I know we're all going to be curious to see, is this the start of a truly global Canadian sleep company?

00:21:25:12 - 00:21:44:10 Nuno Yeah, I guess the short answer is yes, because now we are truly global. And we do believe that sleep is universal, is a universal benefit that anyone can take advantage of in the right way. But how we serve people has to be local. And we just talked about this notion that people remember who they spoke to, not what product they bought.

00:21:44:14 - 00:22:09:01 Nuno So while we continue to expand the view of sleep as a global thing, we want to be very respectful of the local nuances of each market and how we continue to respect those as we expand our operation. And we are very incredibly proud to be Canadian. So it is incredible that a Canadian company, that to your point, has been here for 30 years in a very challenging retail landscape, is not only strong in Canada, but now growing its presence in a meaningful way.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:32:02 Nuno And for us, Alison, quite frankly, it wasn't really chasing just scale. It was about building a meaningful, customer-focused global experience and one that was built on trust, on excellence, on innovation, and a laser focus on that customer experience and delivering better sleep and not just transactions. That for us was a driver. But the short answer is yes.

00:22:32:04 - 00:22:45:01 Alison So now let's switch gears a little bit. I would love to talk about your exciting new campaign that literally just launched this week and features Eugene Levy as Sleep Daddy. So can you share a bit about how the concept came about?

00:22:45:03 - 00:23:02:16 Nuno Yes, it's finally out. And hopefully going well. Frankly, what we did, was we took a giant step back as a team and we asked ourselves, what's really going on with our relationship with sleep? Because if you think about it, your relationship with sleep is truly the only one that lasts your entire life when your very first breath.

00:23:02:18 - 00:23:19:18 Nuno And so when we asked ourselves that question, what we realize is that when you're when you're a kid, it's a lot easier to watch over your relationship with sleep because there's someone always watching over it for you, be it to tell you when it's time to go to bed, to not snack late at night, to sleep enough, and to be well-rested.

00:23:19:19 - 00:23:41:02 Nuno But as an adult, especially in today's economy, and the pressure environment, when we start to neglect our relationship with sleep, we become terrible partners to our sleep. We will deprioritize sleep over a number of things, from watching that Netflix series a little too late, or just that last grind for work, or that midnight oil that we're burning, or purely stress.

00:23:41:02 - 00:24:07:21 Nuno Because at the end of the day, we are all youths and we at Sleep Country, and all of our family of brands recognize that understand that. In fact, we do a lot of surveys and researches throughout the country every year, and the most recent study that we just launched actually talks about the fact that only 16% of Canadians, that's one sixth, describe their relationship with sleep as very good and a whopping seven out of ten Canadians actually say they wish they could actually get better sleep.

00:24:07:23 - 00:24:33:04 Nuno And that's very problematic because sleep is with nutrition, with mental health, with physical health, a core component of how you as a human wake up and perform every day. Right? And so for us, we've played a massive role in helping Canadians rekindle their relationship with sleep. We wanted to create a voice that felt a bit provocative intentionally, with Sleep Daddy as a notion, but most importantly felt warm, trustworthy and familiar.

00:24:33:07 - 00:24:59:13 Nuno Somebody that could help you really rekindle a relationship and prioritize it back in your daily lives. And that's where Eugene Levy, our Sleep Daddy, really came in. We wanted someone who was iconically Canadian and that felt trustworthy, but yet very familiar and disarming and almost a father figure, but also funny. The kind of person that can really cut through that noise without ever delivering as a sermon, without ever getting on a soapbox,

00:24:59:13 - 00:25:17:00 Nuno If that makes sense. We wanted to make it very relatable, and we worked very hard on the execution, along with our agency partners, to make it feel very relatable, to make it feel very human, and to be very rooted in everyday distractions that we all face. And instead of telling you in a judgmental way that you shouldn't, is to say, we get it.

00:25:17:01 - 00:25:36:04 Nuno But how about looking at it from a different perspective, and we can help you do that. And that's where, of course, I got to give Publicis and their team an incredible shout out for continuously pushing us to be more intentional with the way we do advertising and marketing. And from the insight to the creative idea to the execution, they did it masterfully and they were incredible partners to have on that journey.

00:25:37:11 - 00:25:56:11 Alison That's great. I'm excited to see it. And I can absolutely relate to being one of the seven in ten Canadians who would love to get more sleep. We're increasingly hearing about, you know, how mission critical it is, all the health benefits or the personal and professional benefits, and knowing that when you can't get enough sleep, it adds stress to it. So I'm looking forward to Sleep Daddy's

00:25:56:11 - 00:26:09:04 Alison advice and helping me become one of the three in ten, instead of one of the seven in ten. I'm also really glad that the days of bravado, where people were saying, I can survive on four hours sleep and still be productive, are hopefully behind us.

00:26:09:06 - 00:26:20:08 Nuno I couldn't agree more. That's not true ever, in any case. A great night's sleep is a great remedy, it's not perfect for everything, but it does get you on the pathway to it.

00:26:20:10 - 00:26:37:04 Alison Absolutely. So, Nuno, you've had an absolutely outstanding marketing career that spans both agencies and brands, and I know our listeners would benefit from learning from your journey. So I would like to close off our discussion today by having you share your top advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:26:37:06 - 00:26:58:18 Nuno I would say stay curious. Curiosity has been to me, my entire life, a humongous driver of every decision I've ever made and quite frankly, after that, find people who make you better. Find people who see you before anybody else does, and hang on to those people and invest in them, and vice versa. And quite frankly, Alison, I never look to chase titles.

00:26:58:18 - 00:27:19:06 Nuno I really chase purpose. I know it sounds very easy to say, but it was never focus on becoming any specific thing, an SVP of that or chief of that. I just want to do the right thing with great people and be proud of what I was doing. But also don't buy, because I think right now that's happening a lot, into the gloom and doom of our industry.

00:27:19:07 - 00:27:53:23 Nuno It's not an easy time to be in advertising, especially if you're on the agency side of things. Our industry is evolving. It's true. It's more complex than ever before. It's more difficult to work in than ever before. But marketing is still one of the most powerful growth-drivers there are in any company anywhere in the world. And it's how we connect, what we build to real lives and the people that we serve. And at a time where data, technology, performance, AI, which are all languages of business, seems to be at the forefront and dominating the topics of conversation than ever before,

00:27:54:01 - 00:28:15:02 Nuno brand, storytelling, the language of humans has never been more powerful. So stay curious on who are the humans you want to speak to, and why would they care to listen to you? And that will always drive you to something more meaningful. And that's not fluff in my mind's eye. That's just looking for impact, is to stay close to that.

00:28:15:03 - 00:28:34:02 Nuno And if you always staying close to that curiosity and understanding the human on the other side of the equation, you're going to find meaning in what you do, be it inside or outside of the agency walls, the creative department walls, the brand walls. Find the human you want to connect with, and you'll always find meaning in what you're doing.

00:28:34:04 - 00:28:55:22 Alison That is outstanding advice, especially on the positivity side. You're so right that we need to be more proud about the mission critical role that the marketing profession, whether you're agency side or brand side, we have a mission critical role in building brands, building businesses and contributing to Canadians' economy. So, Nuno, it's been an absolute pleasure having our conversation today.

00:28:55:22 - 00:29:03:19 Alison Thank you so much. You're clearly been very busy launching a new campaign. So I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to spend with us.

00:29:03:21 - 00:29:20:15 Nuno Thank you, Alison, and thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the CMA, the CMA Connect team. It's important work that you guys do for the industry. And I couldn't be prouder to be here and more humbled to be here. I really, really appreciate you.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:33:06 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, speaks with Canadians Zoë Boudreau, Associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, Senior Motion Designer, both from Rethink, about winning Canada's first Young Lions Design Competition gold at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. They reveal how a challenging 24-hour brief on Indian comic book history—completely outside their expertise—pushed them to implement integrated speech bubbles and motion systems that no other team explored. Hear how their complementary skills, iterative approach, and ability to maintain humour under extreme pressure turned unfamiliar constraints into gold-winning creativity. See their Young Lion gold-winning work here.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:01 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:48:05 Alison Welcome back to CMA Connect. Today we're bringing you a truly special conversation straight from the heart of the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Every year, the Young Lions competition challenges the brightest emerging talent from around the world, really pushing them to innovate under incredible pressure. This year, on the last day of what was already a very inspiring week, Canada truly shone on that global stage.

00:00:48:07 - 00:01:09:03 Alison So I am thrilled to be joined today by the talented young Canadian creative team, Zoe Boudreau, an associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, a senior motion designer who not only competed but brought home the coveted Gold Lion for design. So I don't normally do a standing ovation in the beginning of a podcast, but guys, you totally deserve a standing ovation.

00:01:09:03 - 00:01:12:07 Alison So super well done.

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:13:11 Jesse Thank you so much.

00:01:13:13 - 00:01:14:07 Zoe Thank you.

00:01:14:12 - 00:01:35:11 Alison Now this incredible achievement really is a testament to your vision, certainly a testament to your hard work. It also highlights the important role of The Globe and Mail, a Canadian Marketing Association member, who champion and lead the Canadian Young Lions competition here in Canada and are really playing an important role for helping foster the next generation of creative leaders right here at home.

00:01:35:17 - 00:01:46:08 Alison So to all our listeners, get ready to be inspired as we hear directly from Canada's winning team about their journey to gold. Zoe and Jesse. Huge welcome to the CMA Connect podcast.

Zoe Thank you.

00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:17 Jesse Thank you so much.

00:01:47:19 - 00:01:56:15 Alison The first question I'm going to ask is, who was the first person you reached out to back home once you found out you'd want? Zoe, do you want to go first?

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:10:19 Zoe Ooh. Honestly, I think it was probably my boyfriend. I think was the first one, but he was dead asleep, so he did not find out until the morning. But that was definitely the first person I texted. that night.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:15:11 Alison That nine hour time zone wouldn't have worked to your advantage on that one, coming from Kelowna. And Jesse, what about you?

00:02:15:16 - 00:02:41:05 Jesse Yeah. It was. I mean, I'd like to say it was my wife, but, no, it was my mom because she texted me, like, five minutes after we won. Like, trying to act really casual like she hadn't been awake all night. Saying, like, oh, have you heard anything? So I FaceTimed or just with the, with the award, and it was fun watching her, like, recognize in real time what she was reading, because I think it was exactly, it was like one in the morning or something.

00:02:41:05 - 00:02:45:21 Alison So I think your wife is can understand that.

00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:18 Jesse Yeah, she, she, she woke up to the message and she seemed pretty excited when, when she found out. But yeah.

00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:13 Alison That is very cool. Well, needless to say, taking home a Gold Lion in design at Cannes is a monumental achievement, especially in the Young Lions competition, which has a very intense 24-hour brief. So huge congratulations, and I'd love you to walk me through the initial moments when you first saw the brief through to coming up with the award winning idea and executing it under such an incredibly tight time constraints.

00:03:17:14 - 00:03:19:11 Alison So who wants to kick it off?

00:03:19:12 - 00:03:40:08 Zoe Yeah, I can kick off like the brief aspect. We were in the this area. We were like eating, because we knew that was something we needed to do before getting into the competition. And we got briefed at 4:00, but we got the briefs sent to us, I think it was at 3:30. Yeah. And we forgot about that, that it was going to be sent to us.

00:03:40:08 - 00:04:07:14 Zoe So as we were eating, it got sent through our email and we're like, the brief! We should probably read this. And we really were like, honestly, I was kind of like surprised or like, really like, scared of the brief. The brief was really tricky. And I think that Jesse and I were just talking about it, and my face was like, oh no, this is like a really hard brief.

00:04:07:14 - 00:04:29:00 Zoe But we got some really good advice from one of our other Canadian Young Lions saying that if it's a hard breathe, it's actually a huge opportunity because everyone's going to see it as a hard brief. So you can just like go hard. If that's the case. So that was pretty intense at the the up front because we were like, oh, this is actually going to be like an all-nighter.

00:04:29:01 - 00:04:49:01 Jesse Yeah I think yeah. So I think it's called the solarium, like the cafe, and you know, really the memory is just having, you know, the, the hot sun just beating down on us and really thinking like, okay, this is, yeah. This isn't going to be fun. This is, this is not going to be a cakewalk.

00:04:49:03 - 00:05:11:20 Jesse And I think kind of recognizing like in that moment. Yeah. That, you know, we got in here representing Canada and that it wasn't going to get to trust that we were here on our own merit. But, you know, you see something like a brief as maybe outside of our boundaries as it was. And yeah, kind of recognizing that we're going to need to dig deep.

00:05:11:22 - 00:05:31:22 Jesse You know, it's it's fun talking about it now, but I was definitely texting a few people, right when we got it. You can definitely see that the decline in like, sanity and just the stress really flow out. So I just want to, I just want to say I appreciate it. Everyone that had to listen to me freak out online.

00:05:32:00 - 00:05:44:02 Alison Well, and the, being in the solarium, something like 32 degree heat, sunshine takes the whole concept of pressure cooker to a whole other level. Now what was it about the brief that made it so tricky and challenging?

00:05:44:04 - 00:06:21:20 Zoe I'd have to say that, well, the brief was making an exhibition in India on Indian comic books. But not just that. It's like the history of storytelling or visual storytelling that leads to comic books. So there were so many layers as part of the brief. And on top of that, we had to name it. And I think the naming part was the thing that we were really freaked out about because we're not copywriters by trade, but now we like to pretend that we are because we we,

00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:14 Zoe I think we came up with a pretty sick name. Yeah. Go ahead. Jesse.

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00 Jesse Oh, no, no.

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:54:11 Jesse No, I mean, it's it's exactly that I think in the Canadian for the Canadian portion of the Young Lions competition, the brief was around a biking event. That was something like a lot of, you know, experience with attending bike events. It was a space that I was really comfortable and interested in. So we kind of felt, you know, leading into that, that maybe we got lucky or that, you know, the things just sort of aligned for us to really hit the ground running there.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:06 Jesse And that just wasn't the case. You know, unfortunately, just recognizing our own paths that just didn't have a ton of cultural touch points to the history of sequential storytelling in India, so that this wasn't going to be something that we just luck into. It was going to be a lot of work. But definitely, you know, on the other side of that, realizing that it was, you know, a super cool and just feel super fortunate for having that opportunity to learn about the space because that was something that we had no idea about going into it.

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:31:16 Jesse And on the other side now, it's something that I think during the presentation portion, we were like genuinely enthusiastic about championing it because it's incredible.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:46:18 Alison Well, that's such a great testament to the profession, because there are times, I've been agency side, I've been brand side, and there are times where you get a client, or you get a brief. It's like, oh, perfect. I have a passion for this. I have an interest for this. But most of the time it's like, okay, that's fascinating.

00:07:46:18 - 00:08:04:07 Alison I don't know much about the market. I don't know much about the brand. I don't know much about the consumer and how you have to dig in and learn, and the fact that you dug in and learned in a very, very compressed time period and emerge with gold, that has to be even more gratifying. So huge, huge congratulations.

00:08:04:13 - 00:08:05:10 Jesse Appreciate that.

00:08:05:12 - 00:08:18:17 Alison So you've shared a bit about the significant creative hurdle that you were encountering with the brief. I'd love to hear, how did you leverage each other's strengths or challenge each other's thinking to overcome it? And Jesse, why don't you kick things off?

00:08:18:18 - 00:08:43:22 Jesse Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think one thing that is maybe unique to our partnership, it was because we were put together as a team under the recommendation of our boss, Hans. A lot of teams designed specifically in Young Lions will be put together because, you know, they're two graphic designers. It's a graphic design competition so, you know, why wouldn't you want two people that are, you know, trained in the same discipline, working together?

00:08:43:22 - 00:09:05:13 Jesse I think what's unique about our partnership is Zoe's trained in graphic design and I'm a motion designer. So when we approach, thinking, and approach, I guess conceptual identity thinking, we're coming at it from two different angles. I think in the moment there's things that, you know, maybe I'll think are obvious or Zoe we will think is obvious, and maybe the other person misses that.

00:09:05:13 - 00:09:35:22 Jesse And I think it's nice because it's a bit more of a holistic approach to identity building that other teams, you know, maybe, might not have. So almost immediately, you know, we're thinking about a system larger than maybe what's on the brief. And I think in doing so, we're able to kind of like go big, recognize all the opportunities and then hone it down to sort of sort of what is the core idea and then hit the ground there.

00:09:36:00 - 00:09:38:08 Jesse And I think that's kind of how we started.

00:09:38:10 - 00:09:54:15 Alison It is super helpful to have different perspectives. And to your point, like really, it really helped broaden your approach and your thinking. Now, Zoe, you mentioned earlier that you also now can count yourselves as copywriters because part of this was coming up with the name and you said it was a sick name. So what was the name?

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:20:15 Zoe Yeah, the name was IN FRAME, and I actually have to give credit to Jesse because he came up with this, in the sense that IN is like the shorthand for India and then frames is kind of like the device that are used within comic books, like the paneling and then the whole system is based around bringing Indian comic books centre frame.

00:10:20:17 - 00:10:35:09 Zoe So then we have the comics and the, the artwork living within the IN as a framing device. So it's like this kind of full circle kind of identity within that. So that, that's definitely goes out to Jesse's IN.

00:10:35:11 - 00:10:35:23 Jesse I mean,

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:04:05 Jesse I'll say it's a, it's a 50/50 thing. I, when we first got the brief, when we left the Palais and we were walking back to our hotel. Yeah, we just started brainstorming. I think it's not a uncommon thing for people to recommend walking and brainstorming as like a really fruitful method for the idea building. And one of the ways they were defining this history of comics and visual storytelling was referred to as sequential storytelling.

00:11:04:07 - 00:11:20:04 Jesse So I really locked on to just, you know, how many, what sort of phrases does it, sequence or sequential come up in? So I think I had a working title called IN Sequence that was, I think maybe what we, and then we split apart when we got to the hotel for about an hour to do some brainstorming.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:32:09 Jesse And then when I came back, Zoe, you were the one that had mentioned that you'd seen frame come up so much. So I think from there we kind of, it was a, it was a, it was a team effort. I did not want to take full credit for that.

00:11:32:10 - 00:11:34:22 Zoe One word each.

00:11:35:00 - 00:11:39:19 Jesse Exactly! And actually if we're going by word, by a letter count, you actually did more work.

00:11:39:19 - 00:11:42:20 Zoe Letter count, yeah.

00:11:42:22 - 00:12:01:10 Alison And for our listeners, I know they're going to want to see the work, so we will link in the comments so that they can actually see your Gold Lion and your work as well. So looking back at the work, with just a little bit of distance, what's one element or specific design choice that you believe really elevated your entry above the rest?

00:12:01:12 - 00:12:29:16 Zoe I think there's two pieces. There is a moment where we were dealing with like the system, and we had this framing device that we were excited about, but then Jesse discovered that underneath the N, there's this notch. And what happens is that there was an ability or an opportunity to put a speech bubble underneath it, which is very common within comic book storytelling, is the the speech bubble on and all that kind of stuff.

00:12:29:16 - 00:12:59:22 Zoe And we had this opportunity to put the artwork within the framing device, but then also have them talking. And so we were able to have the characters speak within the system, which felt like really playful and interesting and, and no one else used speech bubbles at all, which I was surprised within any of the other work. So I think that was our first unlocking moment of making something really interesting and robust within a system.

00:13:00:04 - 00:13:23:05 Zoe And then, we were the only like, from what I could tell the team that had motion or it had a robust motion system. So I think that was like the cherry on top was having this system that had something that was interesting with the speech bubble and then layering on top this like very great motion system as an aside.

00:13:23:07 - 00:13:53:12 Jesse Doing the motion system, like, that was super fun. And I do, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that is definitely maybe a differentiation point in comparison. But I do think our ability to work and iterate quickly just allowed us to sort of spin out so many different options so quickly that, you know, then when we were presenting to the judges, we weren't feeling like, you know, this is the, this is the idea we came up with 11 this morning and it's the best thing that we could do.

00:13:53:14 - 00:14:18:12 Jesse I think an approach that our company Rethink really champions, that our bosses really champion, is this idea of, you know, 1 or 100. So you don't know if your first idea or your hundredth idea is the best one. And the only way to find out is to make 100 ideas. So in that, we were, you know, able to kind of build out, I don't want to say we didn't do 100 ideas, but I think, you know, we we went easy on ourselves.

00:14:18:12 - 00:14:43:11 Jesse It was 24 hours. So, but there were, you know, multiple different inroads. And I think recognizing pretty early on just because of our, the speed that we're able to work out, that the idea that we were presenting wasn't the only thing we'd come up with. It was the best idea that we'd come up with. So there's a confidence that comes from that, and it's an approach that I don't know is reflected in other aspects of the industry.

00:14:43:13 - 00:14:45:10 Jesse So super grateful for that.

00:14:45:12 - 00:15:07:09 Alison That iterative approach certainly has served Rethink incredibly well on the 5th year, 5th year in a row, I believe, at Cannes, being the independent agency. So it's definitely serving you and the organization incredibly well. So in going through all of that iteration, how obvious was it to both of you that this idea was the winning idea?

00:15:07:11 - 00:15:26:00 Zoe I don't know if it was obvious to me at that point. I think Jesse was like, he he knew. He had the feeling. He was like, oh, we did it. We nailed it. And I don't know if I was more, not pessimistic, but like, unsure. I was like, I don't know, like this is a global stage. Like, who knows?

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:50:00 Zoe Like someone could have just like come out at it at a totally different angle and like, so I was a bit unsure. And I think it was mostly because it felt like the subject matter was just so different from what we've dealt with in the past. So it was like, I think when we were watching everyone at the, at the end, at the terrace, when they were doing the big reveal.

00:15:50:04 - 00:16:10:05 Zoe I think that's when it kind of set in. Then I was like, okay, like, maybe we have a chance and then we got shortlisted and then we're like, oh, okay, I think, I think we might have won. So that was like, it took me some time to like go around until I felt more confident with it.

00:16:10:07 - 00:16:32:06 Jesse I think I also don't want to act like I'm the not pessimistic one because, our work that we won the Canadian Division with, I was very like, basically until we submitted it, I was like, I don't see the I don't see this like it's it's interesting, but I don't see what's so good about it. So I would say we're 50/50 on...

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:52:01 Jesse And I mean that's good. I think that's you know, that's sort of, you know, having someone like a partner that's checking you in that way and pushing you. Like when we were in Cannes, that was making me advocate for the importance of what we were hitting on. The strength of the idea. You know, if someone says, you know, I don't I don't really see this,

00:16:52:03 - 00:17:19:13 Jesse That's something that you immediately, it forces you to advocate for the idea. And I know that was, you know, it really helped, even later into the presentation portion crystallize what was special in my mind about the whole thing. And the whole identity. And I think this was the case for the Canadian portion where I felt like, Zoe, you definitely had a way better vision for what it was going to be, but I was the one that was sort of saying, like, I don't see this.

00:17:19:13 - 00:17:34:05 Jesse I don't, I don't get it yet. But like I, and I think that's the thing and I think this is a great example, you know, like a good team is that, you know, I didn't see it, but I trusted you and it worked out all right. And I think you trusted me. Maybe you didn't actually, I don't know, until we won.

00:17:34:05 - 00:17:34:19 Jesse You're like, okay.

00:17:34:23 - 00:17:56:07 Zoe We were out of time at that point, I had to trust you. No, I think that Jesse's like, right on. I think half of, like, the competition is like, you have to have a good rapport with your teammate. And like, we have a lot of trust and like, faith with each other that we can kind of like, you know, say the thing, which I think is really important.

00:17:56:08 - 00:18:14:18 Zoe Like, we already had this like established relationship and like, we were like buddy, buddy, like all Cannes and like had a great time. And I think that's like, that's half the battle. It's just like making sure that you and your, your partner in this are like, good.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:37:00 Jesse Oh goodness. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't imagine doing such a stressful competition, and you know, working with someone that isn't, that isn't enjoying some aspect or isn't like able to see the lightness in how intense and like just just being able to have a laugh during this whole thing. Yeah. It's so important.

00:18:37:02 - 00:19:01:13 Zoe Yeah. I was gonna say that we had like, our windows open and we were doing it at the hotel, like the whole competition within that 24 hours. And apparently one of the other Canadians that were also at their hotel could just, like, hear us laughing all night. But he said it was a good thing because it made them like, I don't know, just like feel at least someone was happy because I think they were having a stressful moment.

00:19:01:15 - 00:19:10:02 Zoe We were just like obnoxiously laughing all night. So hopefully we didn't keep anyone up in the hotel too much.

00:19:10:04 - 00:19:31:18 Alison You both share such powerful ingredients for a successful partnership. Absolutely trust, having the familiarity and respect for each other's expertise, and being willing to call each other on stuff and say, you know what? I don't get it. Yeah. Why do you why are you so sold on this particular concept? And Jesse, to your point, that helps you sort of streamline and focus your thinking on why do I think this is so great

00:19:31:18 - 00:19:48:01 Alison if Zoe's not seeing it yet. And then humour, like in the in the biggest adversity, when you're under the most intense pressure, being able to laugh and just have that emotional release and remind yourself, it's like, yeah, this is stressful, but we're in the south of France competing for like the Young Lions competition on a global stage.

00:19:48:01 - 00:20:09:09 Alison It's pretty damn good too. So just to remind yourselves of that, it sounds like those were all amazing ingredients that contributed to your success. So I was in the auditorium when your win was announced. So I was a thrilled Canadian. But I'd love to hear from you what it was like when you heard you won.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:18:04 Zoe I think it was a very visceral experience. It was a full body. Jesse screamed.

00:20:18:06 - 00:20:37:09 Jesse Yeah. I got like really, really excited. I do want to go on record, if there's anyone that I like punched in the back of the head to, like, get through the crowd, I just want to say I'm sorry. I kind of had blinders on and we didn't position ourselves well in the group. So we were like, right in the thick of things.

00:20:37:09 - 00:20:49:03 Jesse And I think maybe me shouting really loudly sort of spooked a couple people. So everyone was kind of turning around and like, I knew where we needed to be. So I was clawing my way through the crowd.

00:20:49:05 - 00:20:54:06 Zoe And I was just right behind him, so I didn't have to deal with any of that, which was nice.

00:20:54:08 - 00:21:07:17 Jesse I want to go on record and apologize to any of the other countries that we might have, physically tapped along the way. I appreciate you, and I hope you understand. And you're welcome to come visit us in Canada whenever you like.

00:21:07:19 - 00:21:14:09 Alison I think they will more than understand. And you were a very polite Canadian with that answer. So what have you done to celebrate the.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:41:13 Jesse Something that we recognized is that we're both, like pretty, we both enjoy habit and routine. And I think, you know, having like a consistent routine, at least in the day to day, is one of the things I see is like being effective to coming up with, you know, good ideas and good creativity. Sort of removing the friction points, all other aspects of life. You know, I mean, obviously this is dependant. Unfortunately, we did operate the exact same in Cannes.

00:21:41:15 - 00:21:50:14 Jesse So we ate at the same sandwich place. And when I say like, sandwich place, it was a bar that like served a sandwich that we just found on the first day.

00:21:50:14 - 00:21:51:20 Zoe It was a panini.

00:21:51:23 - 00:22:10:18 Jesse It was a panini. Sorry. It was a panini. So we ate there, what, like 4 to 5 days of the seven days we were there. So we knew that when we won, we had to go back and tell the guy that we've won and eat a celebratory sandwich. So that was, that was the immediate thing. And, you know, he was he was excited.

00:22:10:18 - 00:22:14:08 Jesse I don't think he really got what was going on. But you know.

00:22:14:09 - 00:22:29:17 Zoe We like celebrated him. His name was Benjamin. And we came in like every day and was like, hey. But I think like he just like accepted that we arrived and like, liked him. But yeah, I don't know. He was just like, I'm just doing my job.

00:22:29:18 - 00:22:47:17 Jesse Yeah, we were sort of forcing our personalities on this guy. I think we really built him up to be a real figure in our lives during our time there, and he, you know, was happy that we paid the €8 for a panini, but probably couldn't have cared less. No, he was happy that we were there to celebrate.

00:22:47:22 - 00:22:52:14 Jesse So that was, yeah, the immediate thing. And then obviously, you know, calling our partners.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:02:01 Alison I love the celebratory panini. And you created that like daily touchpoint, right. Like that's, way to go Ben for having a role in Canada's gold.

00:23:02:01 - 00:23:06:14 Jesse He's alive in our heart. He's an honorary Canadian. Whenever he wants to come here, happily celebrate that guy?

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:08:16 Alison You're gonna have a lot of visitors.

00:23:08:18 - 00:23:12:06 Jesse I'm excited. It's, It's a beautiful country, I love to show it off.

00:23:12:09 - 00:23:19:06 Alison I couldn't agree more. So what have you learned about yourselves going through this process that you will carry forward in your careers?

00:23:19:08 - 00:23:55:23 Zoe I think the biggest thing that really helped us with the win was distilling the idea into, like, one thing and making the case for it in the presentation. I think we didn't understand the value of like the presentation aspect before going in, until we did some of the boot camps with The Globe and Mail. So I think like distilling the idea into like this one thing and then framing like the colour, the type and like everything back to that main point was such a great way to sell it.

00:23:56:01 - 00:24:20:17 Zoe And I think that's really what helped us in the end, was having just such a like, easy thing to understand. And I think that is one piece in terms of the process I want to like keep doing throughout all our projects, because I think it just makes it way more understandable for people. Like I imagine with like clients and stuff, who maybe don't work with that stuff all the time in terms of design.

00:24:20:19 - 00:24:23:07 Zoe But that's probably the biggest piece for me at least.

00:24:23:09 - 00:24:46:04 Jesse Yeah. And I think on my end, which is speaking as a motion graphics designer, like it's, it's a role that's traditionally more technical focused. And I sort of expected for my career, you know, a large portion of my career, I would basically just be, you know, making, being told what to make being. Yeah, serving a more technical role in a production capacity.

00:24:46:06 - 00:25:15:21 Jesse I think this entire experience has made me recognize that I have a real capacity for, you know, getting up and advocating for the importance of design, the importance of motion in identity systems, and really just recognizing my own enthusiasm for what I do and what we do. So, yeah, really building a lot of confidence from that. And I say this in that, you know, I think it's something that our boss has seen in us the entire time.

00:25:15:21 - 00:25:50:18 Jesse I think it unfortunately can take, you know, winning something like that. You know, you can, someone can tell you that, you know, you should be doing these things. But it's opportunities like this that make you realize your own ability to kind of push past, you know, your comfort zone. I don't know why I wasn't thinking it was something I was able to do, but, you know, forcing yourself to get up in front of a group of people nationally and then internationally and advocate for the importance of something you've made, the confidence that comes from that and the confidence that comes from honestly winning, shortlisting, just being there is huge.

00:25:50:19 - 00:26:07:06 Jesse And I yeah, I really recommend anyone who, you know, thinks that they might not be able to do that or that might not be something that they'd be interested in or just doesn't sound like them, to give it a go, because there's really the only way to find out is by doing it. And that's sort of my case.

00:26:07:06 - 00:26:10:13 Jesse I, I didn't know I had it in me, and it's fun now.

00:26:10:15 - 00:26:47:01 Alison That's great advice and Jesse, it's a great for your career. It's also great for the Canadian advertising profession that you now realize it's not just about you executing other people's ideas. You clearly are incredibly capable of coming up with great creativity on your own and in partnership with Zoe. So that's amazing to hear. And then Zoe your call out about the Globe and Mail Boot Camps, I love the role the Globe is playing in really helping nurture amazing talent like the two of you and across the broad marketing ecosystem, and helping set you up for success by giving you those boot camps and that training going into the national and the global competitions.

00:26:47:01 - 00:26:49:10 Alison So huge shout out to the Globe as well.

00:26:49:12 - 00:27:10:05 Jesse I think they said we were the only, one of the few countries that has one of those boot camp systems before, and I mean, the results speak for itself. I think we were the most medals and the most shortlisted of any of the countries in the Young Lion's competition. So clearly it's paying off. The vision there is clear and it's yeah, super grateful to be a part of it.

00:27:10:07 - 00:27:28:10 Alison That's amazing. Before I let you get on with your busy day, I want to end with a quick question. For all of the aspiring young creatives in Canada who are listening to our episode today, what's the single most important piece of advice that you would offer them about cultivating a mindset that can help lead to breakthrough creative work?

00:27:28:12 - 00:27:55:14 Zoe I would say believe that you can, I think is the biggest thing is that, some people and I've definitely found myself doing this is where you, like, cut yourself short or you don't apply or you like, don't think you can, so you don't. So I think the biggest piece is like, just try and try to put your stuff in competitions, try competitions, try making those big ideas.

00:27:55:16 - 00:28:02:09 Zoe And the worst case scenario is that it doesn't land. But at least you have the knowledge to keep trying and doing things.

00:28:02:11 - 00:28:33:15 Jesse I guess what I would say is really focus on being, this might sound silly, but like being kind to, you know, whoever you're working with, being kind to yourself. It's a super, just the industry in general is so it can be so intense and it can be so unforgiving in aspects. So finding, you know, that kindness, that empathy, if you can carry that, it helps to kind of build a, you know, a team, a network around you.

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:56:02 Jesse It just makes working with people so much easier. The trust is so much easier developed when you know you can freely pass an idea to someone. and there isn't this fear of criticism. There isn't this fear of being laughed at. Because laughter is important in the whole process, as we talked about. But, you know, if it's borne out of fun and not malice, then it just makes the work so much better.

00:28:56:02 - 00:29:24:18 Jesse I think we both see our work as like kind of this playful act, and that's all borne out of, you know, a trust and a lightness that I think comes from, you know, having a general empathy for the other person. So it's been, that would that would be what I'd recommend. Like, don't be too serious. There's so many serious people in the world like, what we do is so fun and so cool, just like take a step back and enjoy it.

00:29:24:20 - 00:29:44:22 Alison They're both excellent pieces of advice and Jesse, I love the be kind to others. I also love be kind to yourself because it is a profession that can be all-consuming. It's a ton of fun. We're so lucky and privileged to do what we do, and there is an intensity and a competitiveness to it. And we can often be really hard on ourselves and

00:29:44:22 - 00:30:05:20 Alison In some ways, that's what makes us all successful. But you also have to be kind to yourself and cut yourself some slack. And then Zoe, you calling out, put yourself out there. Try. Experiment. It's not always going to end up in the Gold Lion, but every time you put yourself out there and try something new and submit, work for creatives or raise your hand for a new opportunity, you're going to learn from that.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:24:07 Alison And that's true for anyone in the creative side of our profession. It's true for anyone in our profession, whether they're on the media side, the brand side. That is the best way to grow your career and to grow your skill set and to ultimately thrive. So Zoe and Jesse, it has been an absolute thrill to have you both on the CMA Connect podcast.

00:30:24:09 - 00:30:28:17 Alison Congratulations again, and I'm really looking forward to what comes next for both of you.

00:30:28:19 - 00:30:29:06 Jesse Thank you so much.

00:30:29:06 - 00:30:29:16 Zoe Thank you.

00:30:29:17 - 00:30:32:02 Jesse Thank you. I appreciate being here.

00:30:32:04 - 00:30:38:18 Alison Really great conversation, you guys.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:51:09 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.