CMA Connect

The CMO role isn't dying – it's evolving. Based on anonymous interviews with marketing leaders worldwide, Confessions of a CMO reveals five distinct archetypes built to thrive under today's pressures. Join outgoing CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson, SVP, Partner and Head of Strategy at FUSE Create Jon Crowley, and Associate Creative Director, Verbal at Monigle, Krisi Packer, as they unpack the research, apply a distinctly Canadian lens and help you discover which archetype you are.

00:00:00:12 - 00:00:14:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Live. Confessions of a CMO. With your host Alison Simpson and special guests Jon Crowley and Krisi Packer.

00:00:14:20 - 00:00:43:04 Alison I'm Alison Simpson, and welcome to our third ever live CMA connect podcast. We've had the pleasure of kicking off CMA marketing week since it was created, and it's wonderful to be back here again to do the same thing. Love sharing the energy in this room with all of you. And also a huge thank you to the hundreds of marketers who have joined us from across the country, especially our friends on the West Coast who are getting up extra early to be part of our CMA marketing week kick off.

00:00:43:06 - 00:01:11:11 Alison For years, we've been hearing that the CMO role is dying. We're seeing shorter tenures. We're seeing shifting titles. We're seeing shrinking budgets, fractured influence. The headlines right themselves. The death of the CMO has become far too common rallying cry on conference stages and in LinkedIn, thought pieces. But as Mark Twain very famously said, the reports of our death are greatly exaggerated.

00:01:11:13 - 00:01:45:05 Alison And that's exactly what our data shows. When CMO's lead customer centric growth company's see 1.4 times higher performance. When that leadership is fully integrated across the organization, growth doubles again. And here in Canada, our own Kantar research tells the same story. Top Canadian brands grew 10% last year, which is significantly outperforming Canada's GDP growth over the same period of 1.3%.

00:01:45:07 - 00:02:14:19 Alison So marketing leadership absolutely is not dying. It is evolving. The species survives because we adapt, and that's what we're here to explore today. Today's conversation is based on exclusive research that asks CMOs to confess what really happens behind closed doors. It's not the polished LinkedIn version of leadership. It's the unfiltered truth, the failure of forced adaptation, and the strategies that really helped ensure survival.

00:02:14:21 - 00:02:39:09 Alison What emerges from those candid conversations is a new taxonomy of marketing leadership. We have seven distinct species picking up on the evolutionary theme that dazzle shared with us, and each of the species has evolved to thrive under very different corporate pressures. Joining me today are two people uniquely positioned to unpack these insights. Krisi Packer is the co author of confessions of a CMO.

00:02:39:11 - 00:03:08:04 Alison She's also associate creative director of Verbal at Monocle. Monocle conducted dozens of anonymous interviews with CMOs around the world, from CPG to tech, from Europe to Asia Pacific, and of course, Canada. And they really captured the honest moments when leaders could finally speak freely about what it really takes to survive in the C-suite today. Jon Crowley is a partner, senior vice president and head of strategy at Fuze Create.

00:03:08:06 - 00:03:31:07 Alison Jon works directly with Canadian CMO and marketing leaders every day, and really helps them navigate the exact pressures that this research helped unveil. He's bringing the Canadian perspective to a global conversation. Well, Krisi and Jon are going to share what they discovered, including which CMO space that they identify with. And here's what makes the research really, really powerful.

00:03:31:09 - 00:03:53:22 Alison It isn't prescriptive. It doesn't tell you which species you should become. Instead, it helps us hold up a mirror and says, here's what's working. Here's how leaders like you are thriving and adapting today. So Krisi and Jon, please join me on stage. I'm looking forward to an insightful and very fun conversation. So, Krisi, let's start by giving our audience a quick field guide.

00:03:54:00 - 00:04:03:05 Alison Can you walk us through the five dominant species and their defining traits? And we'll treat this as a bit of a nature documentary. How do we spot each species out in the wild?

00:04:03:07 - 00:04:13:20 Krisi Fun fact that this field guide does have very nature documentary style intros for all these. Just great. I'm going to spare you my David Attenborough oppression though. Jon, I think you have him right? Yes.

00:04:13:22 - 00:04:14:15 Krisi So let's first

00:04:14:15 - 00:04:33:06 Krisi start with, our chief beauty officer. So I'm going to go through these really quickly. The report is incredibly in-depth. So just know that I'm going to just hit the high notes here. So that way we can you know what your appetite. So the chief Mutiny officer this is our strategic war breaker or our disruptive mutation of the chief marketing officer.

00:04:33:07 - 00:04:53:17 Krisi And really, their job is to kind of enter a place of organizations and release, you know, controlled doses of rebellion. That can look like a lot of different things. But one of the things I love to, give an example for is they will, do anything and, take action even before alignment exists. Right? And they'll use results as proof that they were right, that they should have watched it.

00:04:53:19 - 00:05:12:06 Krisi I know a lot of you might be thinking, hell, yeah, like mutiny. Burn it down. That sounds amazing. That is so reckless. But the truth is, mutiny officers are not reckless. They are highly calculated and precise about when and where to break the rules. And I think what I love about them the most is they, don't wait for that change.

00:05:12:06 - 00:05:16:00 Krisi They provoke it. And, Alison, I know your type is Mutiny Officer.

00:05:16:02 - 00:05:35:16 Alison Yeah. So thank you for describing us as not reckless. When I did the quiz, which everyone will have an opportunity to do as well, I did identify as a Chief Mutiny Officer. And what was interesting was when we've reached out to other Canadians to get a sense for the different profiles that are emerging. Chief Mutiny Officer was one of the lowest to emerge in Canada.

00:05:35:16 - 00:05:46:21 Alison So I know a little bit later Jon will talk about why that is. Is that just us polite, humble Canadians is a political pressure. But we will dig into a little bit more of how we don't have more Chief Mutiny Officers.

00:05:46:23 - 00:06:12:11 Krisi Absolutely. All right, so next we have our Chief Missing Officer. This is our invisible operator or a master of camouflage. And I think this one has the most misleading name. When you hear missing, you probably think I'm absent. Like, do they come to meetings like, what's actually going on? But they are far from absent. They're actually just stealth. I think if the apex, Chief Marketing Officer, if you will, was sort of a show boater. They're a credit share, right?

00:06:12:13 - 00:06:34:11 Krisi They are aligning leaders before a big meeting. They are embedding marketing priorities and other business functions. And, you know, they might not be in the meeting, but their fingerprints are on every single decision. And this is something that, I typed as, as well. Next, we have our Mood Officer. This is our stabilizer. They are the people that are always thinking about the tone in the room.

00:06:34:13 - 00:07:02:11 Krisi It's very vibes coded. It's very, you know, understanding that the decisions that are made are just as important as the environment that it's in. You might spot them in the wild when they're, you know, cutting well-timed jokes to cut the tension or, you know, they're absorbing all that negativity that's in the room just to move the idea forward. So very, very vibes coded. And, honestly, one of the people that really sets the tone for, the environment for ideas to be made in.

00:07:02:15 - 00:07:31:00 Krisi Next we have our Chief Meeting Officer. This is our translator. And I think this is most, closely aligned to a marketer's traditional skill set. They are really connecting the organization through narratives, right? They're bringing together, you know, finance, customer experience, all these different things and really understanding how to talk to them about marketing. And a lot of times in really convoluted situations, too, they're just stating the obvious, which I think is a very important tactic. And something beautiful about the narratives that they create.

00:07:31:00 - 00:07:37:15 Krisi They really bring people back to the human part of the organization and the mission. And, Jon, I know you tie Disney off the right?

00:07:37:17 - 00:07:54:13 Jon Which is maybe the most stereotypical thing for an advertising strategist to type out as sort of the list of options. It's, the concept of, you know, Narrator's Translation, this idea of bringing everyone along on the story. It's kind of like when you read a horoscope and you're like, oh, yeah, I do do that a lot. Maybe I am stubborn as a Taurus.

00:07:54:15 - 00:08:14:18 Krisi All right. And finally we have our momentum officer. So this is our propeller. That's always driving progress. They were born, into the depths of red tape, and they've evolved to know how to cut through it, which I think is really interesting. They move too quickly to fall into those bureaucratic traps, and they really trade theory for action, right?

00:08:14:20 - 00:08:35:09 Krisi You won't catch them, you know, debating something. They're going to be, you know, launching not one campaign, but ten campaigns. They are, moving faster than the speed of debate, which I think is very interesting. And it's not just about speed, but it's about intention as well. So if you all are interested, scan the QR code. You can do, the typing tool right now, probably takes 30s.

00:08:35:11 - 00:08:38:06 Krisi It is not a personality quiz, but it's just as fun.

00:08:38:08 - 00:08:50:14 Alison So we're going to dig into some of the global patterns. And then also the Canadian, what emerge from a Canadian perspective. So Christy, since you've released the report and you've continue these confessionals with number of CMOs, what are you seeing?

00:08:50:16 - 00:09:12:15 Krisi I think what we're seeing is that CMOs are categorizing themselves situationally and deploying the tactics strategically. Just as Jon said, you know, we can't have our horoscope saying, you know, you're gonna have a bad day to day or you don't like bad smells or something, you know? I think what's interesting about this is they are looking at the report and saying, who am I?

00:09:12:15 - 00:09:34:09 Krisi Which traits can I use a different text situation? So we had a CMO who we interviewed. She was, great. She's like, I read the whole report, I did the typing tool. But I have to tell you, when I was reading through everything, I saw myself in every single species. Right. I'm a momentum officer with my team. I'm a meaning officer of my board. And I'm a munity officer with my peers, which I think is interesting.

00:09:34:09 - 00:09:51:01 Krisi So the idea here is to, again, hold a mirror up to what we're all doing right now and really understand what our, you know, strengths are, but also where can we stretch into other species that we might not be as comfortable with? If you're a momentum officer, you're constantly in motion. Always think about the next thing. Maybe a mood officer.

00:09:51:01 - 00:09:58:02 Krisi We have to slow down and really think about the tone. That could also be something that you could be stretching into there. That's not second nature.

00:09:58:04 - 00:10:16:07 Alison Well, it's also encouraging that we as marketers are able to adapt with the environment, adapt with different business pressures as well. Now, Jon, how does the Canadian landscape differ from what Christy found globally? We talked a bit about Chief Munity Officers. Are a bit missing in action in Canada, but what other differences did you see?

00:10:16:09 - 00:10:32:05 Jon Well, a couple of things jumped out that we thought were absolutely fascinating, and we had a bit of an off the record conversation with a group of Canadian marketing leaders. One of the first ones just to call out that that lack of Chief Munity, the officers in the room, was possibly the most Canadian outcome I could have ever imagined.

00:10:32:07 - 00:10:52:23 Jon Like in in our day to day work, we work with a lot of business leaders, both within and outside Canada. And the thing that comes up consistently is people work in the Canadian marketplace are a little more conciliatory in their approach. Other markets, even ones that may be nearby, maybe a little bit more kind of aggressive and confrontational in how discussions are brought together and how things are looked at.

00:10:52:23 - 00:11:13:09 Jon But something that came through in conversations with Canadians in the overarching Canadian approach is that there is a real tendency to kind of be the right person for the room in the moment that you're in. Similar to what Krisi talked about, about that, that need for adaptability. That was very highlighted to the point where, you know, in a room of nine, Canadian CMO was talking about their role as marketing leaders and what motivated them.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:29:22 Jon The most common point was, I can't distill my day or my work down into just one of these. I need to be all of them every day to manage the relationships internally, to manage the relationships with my customers and our partners, and to ensure that we're getting to the best outcome on a consistent basis.

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:37:11 Alison So I love the adaptability I love the Canadian politeness. What I don't love about that is does it imply risk aversion?

00:11:37:13 - 00:12:01:15 Jon So I think that's a fantastic question. I think I think the interpretation of risk aversion is one that comes up a lot in reference to Canadian marketers and really to Canadian business in general. I've heard the same criticism about Canadian manufacturing and Canadian financial institutions and so on and so forth. I don't think care about building strong relationships and keeping them steady actually implies risk aversion.

00:12:01:17 - 00:12:10:08 Jon I think it is entirely possible to have a high risk tolerance while still having a very collectivist mindset. And I think there's a tendency to confuse the two.

00:12:10:10 - 00:12:30:09 Alison Absolutely agree. And it's all about not risk for risk side. But measured risks will help our businesses go for it. So the research also reveals three really interesting paradoxes that really contribute to whether you're a successful CMO today or not. The first is adaptation beats dominant. So, Krisi, what does this mean in practical terms?

00:12:30:11 - 00:12:53:18 Krisi Annotation beats dominance means, I think, the demise of the, you know, old school command or control, you know, CMO the old days, right? It's usually about big budgets, big campaigns, owning the narrative, owning the functions, splashy things. And it's like, okay, well, that just isn't a thing anymore, right? The organizations were in a world, frankly, it's unpredictable. It's chaotic.

00:12:53:18 - 00:13:14:13 Krisi It's, you know, something you can't control. And so I think now it moves from, you know, instead of marketing owning their function, it's navigating the system in which marketing exists. Right? We had a CMO talking about, his company, and he was saying that each business unit had their own marketing department. It was part of a legacy thing with the company.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:35:12 Krisi And as you can imagine, that is a hairy situation to be in. But what he said next really struck me, which was, this isn't a marketing problem. This is actually a change management problem. And I think that right there just incredibly stuck with me because that is the role now, right? It's not just about marketing, it's about navigating the entire system you're in.

00:13:35:14 - 00:13:40:12 Krisi And I think having that adaptability, which marketers naturally do, is a really good head start.

00:13:40:14 - 00:13:50:06 Alison Now, Jon, how are you seeing this come to life in Canada? And if I don't know if you have a specific Canadian example, you can share where that adaptability versus dominance really helped contribute to success.

00:13:50:08 - 00:14:15:18 Jon So I think this is actually a really interesting thing to look at, because I think this is actually closely tied to the be like friendly, collaborative nature that gets called out when Canadians go work in other markets. One of the discussions that actually came up in our, in our off the record room of CMOs was the success the Canadian marketing leaders have had by going elsewhere and being able to bring that collaborative collective slightly less confrontational approach to bear.

00:14:15:20 - 00:14:37:08 Jon The thing that jumped out more than anything else when, when looking at these stories about adaptability, is how many times I've seen people need to pivot from operating in an organization that's very traditionally based to one that suddenly becomes 100% digital, and something I got to see working with a lot of marketing leaders in this country over the course of Covid was just like, oh, my entire business changed last night.

00:14:37:10 - 00:15:04:15 Jon How do we continue functioning? How do we adapt to a digital first mindset to instantaneous economic instability, which really does seem like it's kind of been a watchword in Canadian marketing for the last seven years at this point. But watching people need to pick their moment to completely pivot absolutely everything they're doing while still maintaining a sense of comfort and continuity in that we're all the same in all of this together, has been something that I've seen a lot of Canadian marketers excel at over the last several years.

00:15:04:17 - 00:15:30:14 Alison Great insight. Thank you. Now the second paradox is soft about soft power builds really hard results. And everyone in this room is in marketing to advance business and to drive growth. So the report says that as the C-suite is fragmenting with more specialized roles, the person who connects it really can gain power. So, Christie, in some ways that feels a little bit counterintuitive. Shouldn't fragmentation actually dilute marketing's impact?

00:15:30:16 - 00:15:59:08 Krisi Yes, on paper it does to my fragmentation should dilute marketing's impact. But in reality it kind of creates a vacuum. Right? So today's C-suite is incredibly specialized and thus kind of fragmented, right? You have, you know, chief data officers, analytics revenues, sales growth. It's like alphabet soup up there, right? And I think it's important to understand that with each of those specialties become the silos, because they all touch a piece of the customer journey.

00:15:59:08 - 00:16:14:18 Krisi Right. But it's very fragmented. That's very splintered. So I think where marketing's power can grow is the CMO who is able to connect. That entire system is the one that gains the more power, which I think is very, very important.

00:16:14:20 - 00:16:22:20 Alison And Jon, to your earlier point, there is something uniquely Canadian about our ability to do that. So that does set off up for great success in Canada, but also globally, which is

00:16:22:20 - 00:16:23:14 Krisi great to hear.

00:16:23:16 - 00:16:44:21 Jon One of the things that we've had played back to us by multiple Canadian CMOs, because this is, you know, a smaller market from a global perspective. There are lots of hats that everyone needs to wear. And so very often that that singular marketing leader, that singular, that singular brand manager might need to be a person that is managing eight different, very distinct relationships with different partners and vendors.

00:16:44:21 - 00:17:16:00 Jon And they need to be able to shift from speaking performance marketing to speaking experiential marketing to speaking digital path to purchase and figure out how they're going to handle sales optimization, both online and in store, to having a presentation with their boss to justify what the why. The last quarter numbers played out the specific way they play. It's a lot more natural to need to speak 5 or 6 different languages in a marketing role than it is in many others, and that could often fall off the radar because It can be easy for people outside of the world of marketing to sometimes think we're the colouring things in department, rather than being the one who needs

00:17:16:00 - 00:17:22:15 Jon to figure out how everything that the brand thinks it needs to be kind of goes out into the world and connects with human beings.

00:17:22:17 - 00:17:53:00 Alison So the third paradox might actually be my favourite. Absurd friction feels traction. Now, this is the idea that when other functions don't understand marketing, when they hand us conflicting, compressed, contradictory demands that can actually lead to significantly better marketing outcomes. And I and been in a number of CMO seats myself, I absolutely had colleagues and C-suite executives that didn't understand marketing, and it can make for some painful weeks, without a doubt.

00:17:53:06 - 00:17:57:13 Alison But I love the fact that that can actually lead to better marketing. So Kristie, please elaborate.

00:17:57:15 - 00:18:20:12 Krisi Yeah, I think, you know, what's interesting about this is I'll go back to this quote that I hear from, I heard from one of the CMO, which is it's the only C-suite role where your job is kind of fielding absurdity. Right. And I think you're holding so many different contradictions. You're doing a bunch of different things. And I think, Jon, I know you want to elaborate on this a bit, too, but just the idea that sometimes our jobs are a little bit absurd and like, that's okay.

00:18:20:16 - 00:18:37:06 Krisi But kind of leaning into that actually helps you build traction instead of saying like, oh, this is this is too much, how can I then say, all right, well, I'm going to lean into this and understand that again, there's contradictions. There's all the things, but it's part of the job and I'm going to lead with it 100%.

00:18:37:06 - 00:18:59:11 Jon I think a moment that most senior marketers have ever worked with, can relate to, is needing to be the person who says the very uncomfortable thing in the room, that the average person does not care this much about brands, and therefore we need to. We need to remember that, like maybe they haven't remembered the five core pillars of our brand story when they're walking into a retail location.

00:18:59:11 - 00:19:20:11 Jon Maybe they don't have this deep understanding of the history that we're discussing. So passionately in this boardroom. Sometimes that's the most powerful moment of absurdity, the reminder that as much as our customers centric in everything we do, and we are so passionate about the work we do, lots of leaders need to be the one to remind the team around them that in the consumers lives, we are 1% of 1%.

00:19:20:11 - 00:19:36:15 Jon I mean, there was conversation earlier about the importance of going out and buying a car and the level to which we are not thinking about car brands unless we're buying a new car or unless our car is broken, can't be overstated. And that's not a statement about something being wrong with car brands. It's about any kind of deep specialization.

00:19:36:15 - 00:19:46:12 Jon There's an absurdity in loving a business and loving creating results in a space that is not top of mind for people every day. But we can't all be Beyonce, and I'm okay with that.

00:19:46:14 - 00:20:04:12 Alison So another theme that emerged from the research is positioning. Marketing really is a nervous system for an organization, which I love. So it describes us as being the nervous system. So Christie, how do we know and had a CMO what signals that marketing really is like a nervous system for the organization?

00:20:04:14 - 00:20:28:20 Krisi I think CMOs are uniquely positioned to really, you know, detect and balance, you know, pressure and change before really anybody else, especially on the C-suite. That's like an external pressure is we're always looking for understanding consumer behaviour, emerging consumer patterns, cultural shifts, and also internally, right. We can understand when an organization's risk for appetite is pretty low or a message isn't landing.

00:20:29:02 - 00:20:41:08 Krisi There's a lot of things that we're always doing, but we're not just forecasting. I think, again, we're metabolizing all of this to help the organization move forward. And I think that's why it's the nervous system of the C-suite.

00:20:41:10 - 00:20:58:20 Alison Now, Jon, you work with CMO and senior marketing leaders every day. So for the ones that you're seeing, really picking up on those signals and really acting as a nervous system for their organizations, how are they translating that to business speak and to drive engagement from their CEOs, their CFOs and their close?

00:20:58:22 - 00:21:18:07 Jon So I think this is a fascinating and important question, because even over the last five years, there's been a significant shift in what reporting structures look like in different organizations. I mean, you can no longer take it for granted that a CMO is going to be reporting directly to a CEO, and marketing is going to be treated as not a cost center, but as something that helps build the business overall.

00:21:18:10 - 00:21:35:22 Jon You're in situations where lead marketers might be reporting to a CFO that is looking at it strictly from a perspective of what are the dollars and cents going in and coming out? How do we find that? Not that attribution is the only approach, clearly, but how do we find the attribution model that justifies the expenditures we're making here?

00:21:36:00 - 00:22:01:23 Jon And so this actually led to a lot of conversation from Canadian CFOs about that need for adaptability, about that willingness to kind of change the language and the approach they're using. Because for some, it will come down to being able to show them existing research and math. Driving home the idea that x percent increase in positive brand perception should have this increase in acquisition of new customers, or in sales to existing customers or retention.

00:22:02:05 - 00:22:24:08 Jon Other people won't find those metrics meaningful unless they come specifically from your organization. And sometimes the necessity is to go into that deep modelling work to be able to show them that as much as the work that marketing does best sometimes may not be as immediately measurable as performance marketing work, it is here to grow the bottom line to generate future demand and help the business succeed.

00:22:24:09 - 00:22:54:01 Jon Unfortunately, there's no there's no magic bullet for this. Every audience is going to be slightly different in every business because they have a slightly different preexisting belief system. As to the role of marketing, the value of marketing, and how it kind of flows down the pipeline. But the one thing I've consistently never heard in any of the conversations about this is that leaning hard into the dogfight for attribution is something that's going to pay off, in that when you look across the entirety of a business, there's a lot of people claiming attribution for the same sales.

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:14:00 Jon They may not all be in the same meeting together, but I promise you that a sale being claimed based on a really fantastic performance, better ad campaign is also being claimed based on optimizations to the retail environment is also being claim based on optimizations to the user. Flow of the website is also being claimed by massive shifts in product design.

00:23:14:00 - 00:23:31:23 Jon That happened four years ago and are just now hitting market, and so leaning into those kind of a one dimensional attribution conversations does kind of make it hard to define value. Being at. You need to find a way to clearly define to leadership. The value marketing is bringing to the table that is unambiguously a benefit of marketing.

00:23:32:01 - 00:23:48:20 Alison So, Krisi, we talked a lot about and every conference you go to, you hear about how much marketing is changing, how much the role of the CMO is changing and evolving. So this might be one of the harder questions I ask you. How would you define the role of the CMO in one sentence today?

00:23:48:22 - 00:24:13:16 Krisi One sentence, might two.. can be a run on sentence. Run on sentance. I think that's helpful. CMO is our environment architects. I think despite all of the fragmentation, the chaos, the splintering, all the different things we're dealing with, they still are the people that are intentionally setting the tone for brand and marketing and ideas and teams to really thrive.

00:24:13:18 - 00:24:26:03 Alison Now, we also have there's so many misperceptions around the CMO role around marketing. So, Jon, if you could on stage today retire one misconception about a CMO role forever,

00:24:26:06 - 00:24:27:08 Krisi what would it be?

00:24:27:10 - 00:24:56:16 Jon I would have to lean into the artificial barrier between brand marketing and performance marketing, and we can use different words. AD James Herman, who works with the, the World Advertising Research Council, actually has this really great breakdown of, capturing existing demand versus creating future demand. There is a tendency to completely discount the entire value of marketing in the work of a CMO, frankly, in helping build future demand and create future customers for business.

00:24:56:18 - 00:25:16:04 Jon At times that can be completely ignored, as though it's hypothetical and not essential to future success and growth. And so I think I would basically say, like if I was going to change anything about the perception of the role, any myth and make it go away would be the idea that you are somehow choosing between brand building and moneymaking, as though there is any reason to build a brand that is not about making money.

00:25:16:06 - 00:25:41:15 Alison Let's officially retire that one, because I couldn't agree more. So, Krisi, you had the pleasure of having anonymous conversations with CMO around the world where they could be very forthcoming about the challenges, and I'm sure there were some very disarming, surprising insights that were shared. So without giving away your source, obviously, what is the most unexpectedly human confession you heard in all of your interviews?

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:02:16 Krisi Well, I think I'll just start by saying that the entire report is incredibly human and disarmingly human. Because, you know, when we set out to create this report, we could have easily made a report that said, okay, what are your 2026 priorities? What's keeping you up at night? I, you know, like all these different things, but instead we were we wanted to do this under the cloak of anonymity.

00:26:02:16 - 00:26:25:07 Krisi Right. Because we find the best conversations happen before the mic turns on an interview. And that's when you hear the coolest things and really what people are actually going through. So the way we set this up was really important in the idea of having these human answers and really empowering, close and great ways. And if I had to pick one, I would say I really resonated with this CMO who talked about the role of subjectivity.

00:26:25:07 - 00:26:41:21 Krisi Right. Subjectivity is woven into our roles, unfortunately. And so that naturally opens the door for everyone, and I mean everyone to weigh in on what we do. But instead of saying like, oh God, this sucks, how do we change this? She really just said, listen, this is not a flaw of the role. This is part of the role.

00:26:41:21 - 00:26:57:15 Krisi And this is something that CMOs have to learn how to navigate no matter what I think, especially as a person on the creative marketing side, I really loved hearing that empowerment because it's important to understand how to do this. It's not a woe is me. Why is this happening? Why is everyone wasn't the CFO, not me kind of thing.

00:26:57:20 - 00:27:02:20 Krisi It's more like this is part of the role and we have to learn how to navigate it. And this is what we do every day.

00:27:02:22 - 00:27:10:10 Alison Now, Jon, you've also had a lot of off mike conversations. So what's one insight that was shared with you that doesn't typically show up in a marketing report?

00:27:10:12 - 00:27:25:08 Jon I think maybe my favourite single thing I've heard while talking to people about this report and this research, was when someone played back to us that this is really interesting. They're not 100% sure they want to make it this explicit, how they get their boss to do what they want.

00:27:25:10 - 00:27:47:16 Alison So before we open it up for audience Q&A, there is a fascinating opportunity that comes out of this research that I wanted to share. While we've sort of typecast CMAs with this study as one species, the reality is we none of us are just one species. We are very adaptable, based on who were meeting with what we're doing, the stage of the business, the company we work with.

00:27:47:18 - 00:28:10:08 Alison So the fact that we can shift and based on market size, organizational maturity, that actually makes CMO incredibly well positioned, I would argue, the best positioned in the C-suite to help organizations manage through change. It's something we've been doing throughout our career. So how can we turn this adaptability into our superpower? And Christy, why don't you kick us off?

00:28:10:10 - 00:28:32:14 Krisi I said this before, but I think, you know, we are inherently adaptable, right? It's just really taking it to another level. It's not just being adaptable in marketing, being adaptable across the entire organization. Again, I talked about this before too, but just the idea of absorbing contradiction. There's a lot of it in the role and really being able to move through that in different ways, I think is really important piece of this.

00:28:32:16 - 00:28:33:21 Alison And Jon, what about you?

00:28:33:23 - 00:28:56:13 Jon I mean, I think the most exciting thing about adaptability and adaptability framed as a superpower is, and I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but there's a small amount of chaos going on in the world these days. And so to me, it's really affirming that in times of uncertainty, in times of a lot of change, we've kind of seen this framing of the power of adaptability in the way it feeds into your ability to thrive in changing circumstances.

00:28:56:13 - 00:29:10:13 Jon And so I think the fact that that's so baked into the role, and from what we've heard from Canadian marketing leaders so baked into their understanding of the role, it's very interesting to talk to a large group of people and come away with the feeling that they're just really well built for chaos.

00:29:10:15 - 00:29:31:01 Alison Well built for chaos is officially our superpower. So we're now going to open it up for an audience Q&A. We have members of the CMA with mics that are with us in the room today. So raise your hand if you have a question. And for the hundreds of marketers joining us virtually across the country, please post your question in the chat and we will share it here.

00:29:31:03 - 00:29:44:14 Alison So it's always the first brave soul to raise their hand and ask a question. Now we have a very brave soul at the back. Thank you Dean. So I'm curious about, this the species. Could your species be based on your organization? Could you change as a

00:29:44:14 - 00:30:06:07 Krisi CMO depending on where you land? So I think, the species and the traits within it, really depend on where you're at your organization, who you are, who you're talking to. You know, who your team is. Again, we're not typecasting, as, you know, one species or, you know, like, Jon's a Taurus, right? It's like, what are your sun, moon and rising right.

00:30:06:09 - 00:30:07:15 Krisi Bring it back to astrology.

00:30:07:17 - 00:30:24:04 Jon I love it. I will say that was actually one of the things that came up from a lot of people that we spoke to in the Canadian market specifically that, well, you know what? My last job, I really operated more in this way, but in my current role, the environment and the tone of where I'm working really leans me more in this direction.

00:30:24:04 - 00:30:34:05 Jon So I do think that's yet another example of that adaptability we were talking about. But definitely much like evolution, the constraints of your environment will determine what specific attributes help the next generation thrive.

00:30:34:07 - 00:30:37:09 Alison Thanks for kicking off for Q&A. I'll open it up for the next question.

00:30:37:13 - 00:30:47:03 Krisi I'm also curious, while we're waiting, if you did the typing tool, who did they type as a mutiny officer? Oh love it. Missing meaning.

00:30:47:05 - 00:30:48:08 Alison Mood.

00:30:48:10 - 00:30:53:00 Krisi Ooh, I like the vibes. All right. Momentum.

00:30:53:02 - 00:30:53:18 Alison Interesting.

00:30:53:21 - 00:30:56:18 Jon Were not telling us because their direct manager is.

00:30:56:18 - 00:31:01:09 Krisi Yeah. No no no no no no. Well we'll talk afterwards.

00:31:01:11 - 00:31:05:13 Alison Now, Krisi, how typical was that compared to when you do the same thing globally?

00:31:05:18 - 00:31:27:12 Krisi Yeah, I mean, we we see a lot of meaning officers right now, which is again, like the traditional skill set. And it really is taking it to a new level. And I will say, you know, you mentioned in Canada there's not a lot of muting officers. And we're not we're not seeing a ton either in general. But I think the more and more people dig into the report and the more they think about the different situations they're in and they're like, oh yeah, this is where I mutiny.

00:31:27:12 - 00:31:28:15 Krisi You know?

00:31:28:17 - 00:31:40:10 Alison Now we have our first question from online. So, Krisi, you're sharing this research in a rapidly changing market. How are you seeing the findings evolve as the role and landscape continue to shift?

00:31:40:12 - 00:31:55:01 Krisi Yeah, it was the hope of the report. This is not just an artifact. In time, we're going to be we're in a second phase of interviews and trying to you know, open up the research a bit more. And I'm honestly curious. We we didn't cover this, but there's two emerging species that are in this as well. And one of them is the mosaic officer

00:31:55:01 - 00:32:19:10 Krisi And this one's all about if the meaning officer is about, connecting organizations through narratives, this one is actually connecting them, you know, physically. Right. Especially with emerging technology like AI, different martech stacks, all these different things. It can cause a lot of tech silos, actually, in, organizations. So the mosaic officer, is the red thread for that.

00:32:19:10 - 00:32:32:11 Krisi And it's really great in a post-merger environment, too. So now that we're seeing a lot more of, you know, people, typing themselves and also saying, okay, this is something I'm interested in, and this is also something that's emerging, I think in the market, I'm curious to see how those emerging species, evolve over the year.

00:32:32:15 - 00:32:49:07 Alison And the other questions from our in-person audience. Okay, so we have a braver virtual audience. So they've come back with another question. And this one is for both of you. If a marketer listening today wants to consciously develop traits from a species that they don't naturally embody, where should they start?

00:32:49:09 - 00:33:08:16 Jon Well, I obviously would start by reading the report in extreme detail and trying to internalize all the different learnings, because we do think it's frankly a valuable and really kind of fascinating look at the role. But I would say that, from what I've seen, from what I've experienced personally, this is an industry that has really thrived on a lot of direct mentorship.

00:33:08:18 - 00:33:30:12 Jon And broadening your influences can be a deeply valuable thing. Similar to broadening, I mean, this is this is a little bit more game advice, but broadening where you've actually worked in that direct experience, the environments you connect with, the people you work with will shape the toolkit you have, inevitably. And so there's a certain level of actively trying to learn new skills and import them into different situations.

00:33:30:12 - 00:33:40:19 Jon That's plausible, but I do find that people who most naturally shift between different approaches and patterns of behavior do have hands on experience operating in environments where those are the norms.

00:33:40:21 - 00:33:42:10 Alison And Kristy, I'd love your thoughts on that too.

00:33:42:16 - 00:34:03:03 Krisi Yeah, I agree with that. And I think it's also just, you know, understanding that, like Jon said, this is a very detailed report. You don't have to use every single tactic. But perhaps, you know, you're looking again to be, you know, say a momentum officer. See like think about the situations that that could be useful and. Right? And then also think about the people you're working with and you know, try out a couple tactics every now and then.

00:34:03:03 - 00:34:21:07 Krisi You know, you never know when it can work or land, and you never know when you can be like, that's just not me. I'm not doing that, you know? And that's okay. Right? It's important to understand, again, this is sort of a collective report to kind of showcase all the different types of behaviors that CMAs are exhibiting right now to really thrive in the C-suite.

00:34:21:09 - 00:34:23:19 Krisi So I think, you know, just try it out.

00:34:23:21 - 00:34:39:00 Jon It's going to make a ton of sense that the the report kind of calls out signature moves for each group. There's two great exercises, which is the one would be a great time for the signature move. And then the second one, be one would be a time I should never, for career limiting reasons, consider using this signature move.

00:34:39:02 - 00:35:03:16 Alison So open it up one last time for our in-person audience to see if there's any question. So we will wrap with one more question from our virtual audience. So, Christy, the report talks about how the pressures that once hunted only CMO and now stalk the entire C-suite. So which of these adaptive traits, translation timing, emotional acuity do you think other C-suite executives need in order to develop?

00:35:03:18 - 00:35:17:13 Krisi I would say translating, for sure. I think CMOs are naturally good at this. We are constantly doing it all the time across the C-suite and across the organization. And, you know, soon, I think the rest of the C-suite is going to have to catch up and do that as well. Jon, what do you think?

00:35:17:15 - 00:35:43:07 Jon I'm actually 100% aligned on translation being really essential. One of the things that I think is kind of fascinating is we've, from a professionalization standpoint, gone from businesses being primarily led by experts in those specific businesses to being primarily led by experts in business. And so suddenly translation is actually a core part of understanding what it is your business does to make money beyond operational efficiency and smart financial management.

00:35:43:09 - 00:35:49:12 Jon And so the more that skill set becomes universal, I think the better businesses are going to be in everything they do, not just marketing.

00:35:49:14 - 00:36:05:19 Alison Thank you both. Now, before I let you go, I and I may connect podcast by asking my very talented guests to share one piece of advice that you would share for our audience, joining us today who aspire to follow in your footsteps. And, Jon, why don't you kick us off?

00:36:05:21 - 00:36:27:10 Jon Ooh. If I had to offer a single piece of advice, it would be working very hard on finding the correct balance between arrogance and insecurity. Very often, people lean too far in one direction and start thinking, I can't do this, and this is impossible for me, and that's terrible for you. Or they lean too far in the other direction, and they think I am naturally brilliant and more capable than anyone else.

00:36:27:12 - 00:36:43:15 Jon And why would I not just go do whatever I want to do? And both of those paths lead to disaster. But if you can find the right point of, I may not know how to do this, but, you know, there's no reason anyone is naturally better than me being able to figure it out. You can get there pretty much anything.

00:36:43:17 - 00:36:55:22 Alison I couldn't agree more, especially in today's reality. If we are not constantly learning, not just as marketers, but as business people, we are going to be left behind at remarkable speed. So, Christy, what advice for you sharing today?

00:36:56:00 - 00:37:15:07 Krisi I think for me and also just, the CMO that we talked to in the report, I mean, the way everyone gets to marketing is not linear whatsoever. It's just important to think about what fuels you. Right? Like I started my career in journalism and public radio. Then I moved into communications, PR, digital marketing and now branding.

00:37:15:07 - 00:37:21:10 Krisi And so the red thread for that for me is storytelling. So I think it's just really important to think about what makes you, you know, tick and what fuels you.

00:37:21:12 - 00:37:37:18 Alison Great advice to you both. And thank you very much for being here in person today. Thoroughly enjoyed with the conversation, and I want to thank everyone for joining us in our audience today. And hundreds of marketers from across the country who are joining us in making our third ever CMA Connect Live podcast a success. With that, I will turn it back to Esther.

00:37:37:19 - 00:37:42:21 Alison Thank you

00:37:42:23 - 00:37:55:13 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CM Makkah and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, outgoing President and CEO of the CMA, sits down with Esther Benzie, the newly appointed President and CEO of the CMA, to discuss the leadership transition and the future of Canada's marketing profession. Esther shares insights from her 30-year career at P&G, CIBC and the Association of Canadian Advertisers and reveals why the opportunity to help marketing "regain its swagger" made accepting this role a resounding yes. The discussion covers groundbreaking data from the CMA Marketing Impact Study, which proves marketing's $130.9 billion economic contribution, and previews the third annual CMA Marketing Week, expanding nationally from Toronto and Vancouver to Montreal.

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.640 — 00:02:43.890 · Alison Leadership transitions are really rare moments that can reveal what an organization truly values. Today's episode is one of those amazing moments. So after announcing my retirement plans last September, the CMA Board of Directors launched a very thoughtful search to find the leader who could really build on our association's strong momentum.

That search, I'm happy to say, led them to Esther Benzie, and I absolutely could not be more excited about what that means for Canadian marketers. Over the past few years, the CMA team has accomplished a lot together. We've got a lot to be proud of. Our membership has grown to over 460 organizations, we have welcomed more than 100 new members since 2023, and the number of chartered marketers has more than doubled.

We also launched the CMA Marketing Week, which has become a national gathering drawing thousands of marketers and earned best in class satisfaction ratings last year, and through the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, we have upscaled more than 2100 marketers from underrepresented groups across the country and supported 700 SMEs with top marketing talent.

Those are just a few examples. So clearly the foundation is very strong and now it's about building on that great momentum. That's why Esther was the right choice. She brings over 30 years of marketing leadership, starting with Procter and Gamble, where she built her expertise in brand building and consumer insights.

She then went on to lead transformational work as Vice President of Brand and Advertising at CIBC, leading the relaunch of their CIBC brand and the Ambitions Made Real platform. Esther also brings association experience from her time as Acting President and CEO of the Association of Canadian Advertisers, which gives her a really practical understanding of what it takes to serve a membership organization.

Esther officially started on March 9th and has absolutely hit the ground running. In her first few weeks, she unveiled her groundbreaking research that quantifies, for the first time ever, the massive economic impact marketing has on Canada. The numbers are staggering and give every marketer in this country the data they need to really further prove our strategic value.

I'm supporting Esther through the end of May to ensure a seamless transition, so this conversation feels particularly special. We'll talk about why she wanted the role, what she's learned in her first 60 days, the powerful findings from the CMA Marketing Impact study, and what's ahead as we head into the third annual CMA Marketing Week next week.

Esther, welcome to CMA Connect. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

00:02:44.050 — 00:02:55.610 · Esther Thank you so much, Alison. Transitioning alongside you these past weeks has been amazing, and it's great to see the incredible position that you're leaving the CMA in.

00:02:55.730 — 00:03:21.070 · Alison Well thank you. It's absolutely been a team effort with everyone at the CMA and our absolutely incredible Membership and Board. Esther, in my intro, I shared a bit about the incredible career that you've had, leading marketing for some of the world's most recognized brands and also working on the service provider side of our profession.

So I know our listeners will want to learn what attracted you to the CMA and why does leading Canada's largest marketing association feel like the right next chapter for you?

00:03:21.110 — 00:06:13.220 · Esther When I first saw this opportunity, everything just clicked. As I said in one of my interviews on the announcement, it just felt like a really easy "yes" for me. This job brought together my 30 years of building brands, of understanding consumers, of leading teams through transformation. At my P&G experience, I did learn the discipline of brand building.

There, it was all about getting to know the consumer and understanding them, the power of strategy, making really good choices and understanding what you were trying to communicate, as well as the importance of execution and really being thoughtful on what you were executing in the market. And we described it as "the who, the what and the how" in some ways.

But it was an important legacy for me. And I took that experience to CIBC. As you mentioned in the intro, a big project I had there was modernizing the brand through the restage that touched all 55,000 employees and 8 million clients globally. So I believe that the experiences I've had in those big brands, as well as through my consulting, brought together my love of all aspects of marketing and delivering on consumer needs, driving business growth.

So when I heard about this job, there were actually a couple of signs that made this the right next chapter, which I don't even know if I've told you all of them. Alison. The first was last summer. I was speaking to a colleague and I was telling her that my daughter had a summer job in advertising at an ad agency, and she was a VP of Marketing herself, and she said, "Wow, do you really want her to get into marketing?"

Like, and she said it like it was something that we shouldn't be encouraging our, our young people to get into. And it made me realize that our profession had an opportunity to regain its swagger. And, you know, at the same time, I was hearing consulting clients and reading about marketing and hearing about all the challenges that they were facing and how they wanted to have a greater impact in the C-suite, and how to think about AI and how to do more with less.

And, you know, you wrap that with all the news that was coming about the tariffs and political uncertainty and the need for Canada to be more productive and more innovative, and all that led me to say, wow, you know, we need to get that credibility back, that pride back. And it felt like our profession had been in a bit of a fight for its seat at the table.

And so when I saw the CMA opportunity, that this was so much of the belief of the CMA, it just really felt like the right place to be to be able to have an impact on all those areas.

00:06:13.260 — 00:07:07.640 · Alison You hadn't shared the story about your daughter's experience before. It's great that she was excited about advertising. It's disappointing that your friend in the profession wasn't advocating on our behalf. And you're so right that getting our swagger back, being more proud and not being the typical humble Canadians.

Being much more proud about what we as a profession deliver to our country's ability to innovate, to businesses and brands' ability to grow. We make tangible, mission critical changes and impacts to our country's GDP, to business growth, brand growth, and certainly to social enterprises as well. And a little bit later in the episode, we'll get into the marketing impact study, but that provides some really important fuel for everyone in our profession to walk a little taller and to really be able to advocate on how mission critical marketing is in Canada.

00:07:07.720 — 00:07:26.680 · Esther Yeah, to be honest, I think my friend's comment was as much a reflection of just a bit of jadedness that people are feeling because a lot of marketers are being asked to do so much more than they were before. And so I think it was a little bit of that. And the fun fact is, her daughter is now going to work in an ad agency this summer too.

So maybe I convinced her.

00:07:27.200 — 00:07:27.960 · Alison Well done.

00:07:27.960 — 00:07:47.760 · Esther But, you know, it was just a bit surprising at first. We think of ourselves as being such big advocates. You and I have both had long careers in marketing and have really loved it. And, you know, I wish that for the future generation as well, to have that kind of passion for what we do. Because in my mind, it's such an interesting career.

00:07:48.000 — 00:08:27.790 · Alison I couldn't agree more and I am going to encourage you and our listeners for the interactions I have with younger marketers in our profession. We have an Aim Advisory board that brings together 15 junior marketers across our profession and our member network, and they are so talented. They are so committed.

They are absolutely passionate about their role in the importance of marketing. So I do think the future is bright, and maybe some of us older will become a little bit more jaded. Thankfully, the younger generations have not.

00:08:19 - Esther That's great, I agree.

Alison We've shared a bit about this, but how else has your experience shaped your thinking about what the CMA should be doing for its members?

00:08:27.830 — 00:11:17.450 · Esther Well, my experience in previous roles was in companies that really reflect our member base. So I had client side experience at a multinational and a Canadian-based company. As you mentioned, I worked at an association and I've been a vendor as well. And so I think those experiences have really shaped how I think about member value and what members are looking for when they join the association.

So when I was the member, I valued community, I valued thought leadership, and I always felt like the CMA was a bit of a signal through the noise. There was so much information coming at me constantly, and I found the CMA so helpful in providing resources and that community of marketers that I could speak to about all my issues.

So that was my experience as a member. I think with the association, what I saw was a bit of those inner workings of the association and that it's such a tough balance, and I commend you for doing it for the last few years, of being able to serve such diverse member needs while staying relevant, and the importance of the advocacy work that happens behind the scenes.

And I think what both those experiences taught me is as an association, the CMA needs to operate at multiple altitudes simultaneously for different audiences, you know. But by that, I mean we're day to day with practical resources, right? Whether it's our AI playbooks or some of our certificate courses or some of our how to guides.

But we also need to be 3000ft and thinking in the future when we think of influencing policy and, you know, some of the research that has been identified and all that we have to do to to maintain the ethical standards of marketing. So I think all those experiences help me realize that while we have three great pillars of community influence and standards of excellence, different people from our member organizations need different levels of support.

00:10:42 - Esther And whether that's, you know, somebody who's a junior marketer or a CMO, they need different levels of support at different points in their career, and I think the CMA does an amazing job of delivering against that. I just want us to be that indispensable partner that makes every Canadian marketer more effective, more confident and offer more value to their organization, because that's what's going to keep us as an association, thriving, as well as keeping marketing as a profession thriving.

00:11:17.850 — 00:11:31.410 · Alison I couldn't agree more on being almost four years in the role. One thing I can vouch for is it's an incredibly exciting role. Time flies by and you will never, ever be bored. Coming up on 60 days, you're already sensing that.

00:11:31.410 — 00:11:53.200 · Esther I'm already sensing that. And it's so fun to get out. And yes, we spent a lot of time talking and listening to our members and what their needs are. And there's just so much energy out there for the profession and a desire to have an impact. And it's been just really, really exciting to hear it all.

00:11:53.240 — 00:12:13.320 · Alison And those conversations really fuel where we can identify areas that we can improve upon, where we see gaps that we can help fill from a profession's perspective as well. So building on that, you're almost at your first 60 days with the CMA. What have been some of your biggest observations or surprises that you've gotten about the Association and our Members so far?

00:12:13.440 — 00:14:11.200 · Esther Well, these first few weeks have been and they've been so exciting in the best possible way. I would say my biggest observation is just how much of a genuine connection people have for the CMA, and how invested they all are in its success and in marketing success. And it's true of our staff, our Members, our Chartered Marketers, and even our Board.

You know, as you know, I since I arrived, I met with every employee and they they speak so highly of the culture that has been created And a lot of that is a tribute to you, Alison, and the and the leadership team. When I got appointed, I received so many unsolicited notes from members, and all the comments just made me realize how important the CMA has been to them.

And I know I shared some of them with you, but just some really beautiful remarks about how important the CMA is and how passionate they are, how when they have to make choices on their time, this is where they want to spend it. And I think that's been a real surprise. And it's true. I was at an event today, and I got comments about how much our members value the community and connections.

So, you know, I think it's throughout those different groups, we hear it and and even when we talk to our Board, who are some of Canada's top senior marketing leaders, they're choosing to give up their precious volunteer time to work with us because they believe in the mission and the need to future-proof the profession so strongly.

So I think that's been the biggest surprise. It's just that collective pride and passion that I see throughout the different stakeholders. And it's really not something you can manufacture. It's the result of years of the CMA showing up consistently.

00:14:11.760 — 00:14:31.680 · Alison So incredibly gratifying to hear. The team has worked and continues to work incredibly hard. And our goal is to achieve exactly what you have described. So to hear that you are getting that unprompted feedback across the membership is very, very much appreciated. So thank you and thank you to the members for reaching out.

00:14:31.720 — 00:14:59.390 · Esther And I hope that they continue to reach out. I know that for me, that's such a great learning. We talked to some of our Chartered Marketers yesterday and the feedback from them was incredible. I loved hearing things like, I'm in more rooms now. I'm a part of more conversations because I'm a Chartered Marketer, or I've now had the ability to get a promotion or a raise because I had my Charter Marketer.

I mean, those that level of pride is pretty amazing.

00:14:59.550 — 00:15:14.470 · Alison And the doors and opportunities that's opening as Canada's only professional marketing designation is resonating, which is great to hear. So I know it's still early days, but as you look ahead, what's a new opportunity or priority that you've identified that you think we should be tackling?

00:15:14.470 — 00:17:44.900 · Esther So I've been thinking about this a lot from my listening and learning tour, and as I'm still listening, this will continue to evolve. But the opportunity I see right now is reaching more marketers across Canada. Uh, you know, the study that S ignal 49 conducted showing the marketing impact in Canada, it revealed that more than 861,000 jobs in this country are marketing jobs.

So that's 1 in 25. And the CMA is the largest marketing association. And yet our members only represent about 40,000 marketers. That's just 5% of the entire community. And as much as we advocate and have impact on the broader community, even if they're not a member, uh, I still think there's a huge upside to be that catalyst to help marketers thrive today and in the future by increasing our presence across the country and having an impact on more marketers so that they can benefit from all the amazing work that the CMA is doing.

Just to give you a couple of examples, within the recent Ipsos survey that suggested only about a third of marketers have any formal training, we have the Chartered Marketer program, digital certificates, a robust learning plan. Those are all things that all marketers should take advantage of, and I want more members to be able to see that there's a new privacy bill this summer, and we need to represent business and consumer in the ethical use of data and AI.

That's another place where we can have such a huge impact. And finally, marketers tell us how much they want to connect with each other. And we have events, councils and committees where that sharing can happen. So there's a huge opportunity for us to reach more marketers across Canada. Have every CMO walk into their boardroom with data that proves marketing is an economic growth engine, and that we have every young marketer seeing that they have a clear path to professional growth, and that we have every business seeing that great marketing is a core growth driver.

00:17:45.300 — 00:18:03.140 · Alison You've identified such an important area with every new member organization that joins, it means we can do even more to advance and represent the marketing profession. And it also means that even more marketers are going to be benefiting from everything that we're already doing. So I love that as a one of your early priorities.

00:18:03.260 — 00:18:29.780 · Esther Yeah. And, you know, as the study showed, like there's so many marketers outside of Ontario and in other communities. And, you know, I was amazed by the stat that we have Chartered Marketers in every province and territory. And so we know that the great work that the CMA is doing can touch the Canadian economy across the board.

And I think that's a that's an exciting opportunity.

00:18:30.060 — 00:19:25.200 · Alison Absolutely. Now you've mentioned a bit about the marketing impact study, and I'd love to dig into that even more deeply. I know our listeners are definitely going to be interested. So we announced the study shortly after you joined in March, and it was a partnership between the CMA and the Conference Board of Canada, which is now known as Signal 49, and this was the first comprehensive look at marketing's economic contribution to Canada.

And as I mentioned in the opening, the findings are so incredibly important and compelling. So marketing activity generated 130.9 billion in GDP in 2024, which means marketing is rivalling sectors like retail trade, oil and gas. And that's often not the understanding. So to now have the data to back that up is really important.

So as the voice of this research to the media and our members, why do you think the study matters so much for our profession?

00:19:25.240 — 00:21:06.530 · Esther Well, Alison, you mentioned some of the key stats, but I think the first piece of the report is, it's so validating for all of our marketers, right? Because it demonstrates not only do we have that economic impact, that we represent 4.6% of our of our national GDP. Um, you know, I mentioned the 1 in 25 jobs. Those are those are stats that can help us work with policymakers and the government to demonstrate the value that we are having as a profession.

But I think the other pieces that are important in this are some of the predictive, performance oriented parts of the conversation. You know, for decades, marketers feel like we've been on the defensive, right? You know, we're a cost. We need to defend that. We're actually growing the business. What this does is it flips the script.

It shows that we are a mission critical part of the Canadian economy, and that we are a growth engine for businesses. And I loved all the stats in that report that showed that if you have stronger brand strategies, you're going to deliver higher sales, or if you have better marketing, you're going to get better profit.

I mean, there's just a lot in there that really showed that great marketing delivers great business results, and I think it gives us the right to be at the table and have the discussions on how we're going to innovate and grow the business so that Canada benefits.

00:21:06.970 — 00:21:42.670 · Alison You're so right. And you and I share a passion of how important marketing is as a powerful driver of business performance across the country. We know the organizations that invest in strong brand and marketing consistently outperform their peers. You talked about delivering higher sales, stronger operating income, and certainly greater resilience during periods of economic uncertainty.

We will certainly include a link to the full report in the podcast notes, but I know our listeners would love it if you could share a couple of the data points that really bring to life what a powerful driver of business performance marketing is in Canada.

00:21:42.710 — 00:22:36.350 · Esther Certainly within that study, some of the performance evidence was those companies that had award winning marketing saw 48% more in operating income. They saw 37% more in sales growth. I mean, that's some really great results. There was also information around the impact of personalization as well as the impact of loyalty programs.

So all of those are within the study. Companies that were the top brands in Canada grew by 10%, whereas GDP growth was 1.3%. So top brands outperformed GDP growth. So there were some really amazing statistics within the study that just demonstrated the performance evidence that we need to be able to have those discussions at the C-suite.

00:22:36.390 — 00:23:06.290 · Alison That's great, Esther, thank you very much for sharing. I know that our listeners will be even more intrigued to take the time to read through more of the details that they can find in the full study. Now we're just days away from our third annual CMA Marketing Week, which kicks off on May 4th and runs through the eighth.

And this was one of the initiatives that I launched when I was leading the CMA, and I'm super excited to see how it's evolved. This year's theme is Marketing Through the Lens of Tomorrow, and I'd love you to share. What are some of the highlights that you're most looking forward to?

00:23:06.370 — 00:25:12.940 · Esther Well, the energy for Marketing Week is certainly high. And what I love about what the team has done this year is the fact that we've really leaned in to make it truly national. So we'll be in Montreal for the first time on May 5th. The flagship CMA Future Proof is in Toronto on May 6th, and we're going into Vancouver on May 7th.

So each city is getting programming that reflects their unique marketing community. Yet it's all tied together under the theme of Marketing Through the Lens of Tomorrow. So there's going to be some great speakers. There's going to be some amazing panels. Just to give you a little bit of a flavour. In Montreal, there's going to be The Creative Autopsy: Learning What Didn't Land, which I think will be really interesting because we don't talk about failures as much.

In Toronto, I'm really looking forward to hearing Tucker Bryant. He's a professional poet and innovation strategist, and he's worked with Stanford, he's worked with Google. And his keynote is called Using the Poets Perspective to Help Leaders Rethink Innovation. And if you think about where we're at now, where we've got so much data and AI and process and everything else, I think having someone who can remind us about the power of language and human insight is going to be really refreshing.

And then in Vancouver, we have Jill Schnarr from Telus, and I was actually speaking to a Telus member at an event today, and they were telling me about Jill and her experience and she's just going to be fantastic. So all those speakers will be amazing as well as the different breakouts. I think what also makes our events really special is just the conversations that happen throughout the day.

And you know, I know when I was a member coming to the events, that's what I really enjoyed as well, is just the chance to catch up with peers, to talk about my challenges, to have other people share what they were experiencing. There's real magic in that.

00:25:12.980 — 00:25:30.380 · Alison Absolutely. So now I'm going to switch gears a little bit, and I have a few questions around your leadership philosophy and vision. So throughout your career, you've led some major initiatives and stepped into certainly new leadership roles. So what's your approach to building on existing momentum while you're still pushing an organization forward?

00:25:30.420 — 00:27:45.930 · Esther You know, it's a it's a great question and it's an interesting view because it's it's actually how I went in to interviewing for this job was to think about what were we doing really, really well as an association. And when the Board asked me about where we should go in the future, I started with where we were and how well we had done in certain areas.

And I think that that the key is honouring what's working while staying curious about what could be better. And I believe that you don't want to tear down a really strong foundation. You build on it strategically. So, you know, I spent a lot of my first weeks really listening and talking to people and asking what they loved and what they were happy with and why were they happy with different elements.

And I think that's giving me a good sense of what are the things that you absolutely can't change and don't want to change. And what I discovered were things like the practical training, the advocacy that we do, the community building, all of these pillars were worth protecting. You know, as we've talked on building on momentum, as I've mentioned, I want to scale the impact.

And I think there's that opportunity both with the 1 in 25 marketers around the country as well as within our member organizations. I think we have an opportunity to make sure that everyone within an organization knows about the CMA and knows what they can do. Um, so I think that's an important piece.

So all those are are areas to to build on existing momentum. We got to listen. And we've got to keep the things that people love while also looking for those places where there's opportunity to, to do even more. The final comment I'd make on change is that it's going to be really important to bring everyone else along on the journey, and change can happen when the teams feel ownership and excitement.

So that's going to be really important with any changes and builds that we make at the CMA, is making sure that all of our stakeholders feel like they're a part of it too. So I'm definitely excited to invite input to explain what I'm thinking, to get builds, to change, to evolve as we go along.

00:27:45.970 — 00:27:58.970 · Alison That's great. I love the highly collaborative approach. It will definitely pay off in spades. Now, you also have been deeply committed to leadership development throughout your career. So how does that commitment show up in your vision for the CMA and in supporting Canadian marketers?

00:27:59.010 — 00:29:55.490 · Esther So from a leadership development standpoint, leadership has been really central to my career. I think at P&G, it was a core part of how we were evaluated as leaders, how we developed others. At CIBC, I also spent a lot of time mentoring emerging leaders, and was struck by how much people wanted to have honest conversations about what leadership looked like there.

We used to talk about leadership, as you know, the importance of envisioning, of inspiring, of driving, of all those skills and post CIBC, leadership development has been so important to me. I actually trained as an executive coach, which was really helpful in identifying how people can build their own leadership by asking those right questions and helping them explore the systems that they're operating in and the systems that influence us as a coach.

You know, but I think the CMA is uniquely positioned in terms of marketing leadership. We can create learning experiences that build capability. And we have programs where marketers are working through real challenges together, right, through things like the Chartered Marketer program, where you've got more of that approach of, you know, a lot of people were talking about their capstone projects.

We have leadership capability through our mentorship and matching. And I think that's a really important piece of marketing leadership as well. You know, I want the CMA to deliver great marketing leadership, thinking and training. But I also want us to model great leadership. And I think you've done that really well in building the team.

You know, we've got to be a great place to work. We've got to invest in our team's development and we've got to be, you know, the best possible leaders that we can be.

00:29:55.650 — 00:30:15.330 · Alison Well said. Now before becoming our new President and CEO, you were absolutely an engaged CMA member. So what would you recommend for the marketing professionals who are listening, who really want to make the most of what the CMA has to offer and to really stay ahead in our never-sleeping, always rapidly-evolving profession.

00:30:15.370 — 00:31:16.400 · Esther You know, there's so many people have said this, but the more you put into the CMA, the more you get out of the CMA. So I want every marketer to feel that we're here for them and that no matter where they are in the country, no matter where they are in their career journey and no matter what industry they're in.

But the people who get the most out of it are those who get involved beyond just consuming content. So we have amazing content and absolutely we want people to use that. But we also want people to come to events like Marketing Week, to join a CMA Council and Committee so that they can talk to their peers and get that benefit.

And I think the value compounds when you actively engage. So for me, I was a Chartered Marketer, I was a judge on marketing awards. I joined a council, I came to lots of events, and each of those brought different pieces of the CMA value to me. And I think that that's what's really important for people.

00:31:16.880 — 00:31:28.320 · Alison I absolutely agree. So before I let you get on with what I know is a very busy day, I would love you to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:31:28.680 — 00:31:29.119 · Esther Ha ha ha

00:31:30.240 — 00:32:38.920 · Esther When I think of my career, I think of three things that have stayed true for me throughout that career, and that is to stay curious, to really remain a strong critical thinker, and the last is to build a community. I was never somebody who was motivated by level or prestige, but rather the choices I made in career were all about learning and where I could go to keep learning.

And probably the moments of greatest growth were when I took on something new and unexpected and a little bit different. So that would be my advice for anyone else is just stay curious and recognize that you have to think more and more critically in our AI-driven world, but also you need people on your side.

You need a community around you to keep you grounded, to keep you connected, to be your champions, your Board of Directors. And so those are the things that I've lived by in my career.

00:32:39.280 — 00:32:58.520 · Alison That is absolutely great advice. Esther, I have really enjoyed our conversation, and I'm super excited to see how the CMA is going to build on our strong momentum under your leadership. And I'm also really looking forward to celebrating your and the team's many successes in the months and years ahead.

So thank you from the bottom of my heart for joining me on CMA Connect.

00:32:58.560 — 00:33:30.270 · Esther Well, thank you, Alison. This has been more fun than I expected. And I wanted to just say publicly what I've said to you privately. You're leaving the CMA in an incredible position, and I feel really honoured to be building on your legacy. And thank you for all of your support as we have been going through this transition.

I know that the CMA is going to continue to flourish based on the foundation that you have built. So thank you.

00:33:30.310 — 00:33:53.550 · Alison It has absolutely been a highlight of my career. And it's never one person. This is very much been a team effort with our talented CMA team, with our very engaged Boards and with our membership, who really make us more scalable and able to accomplish so much more for the marketing profession and marketers across the country.

So I look forward to seeing where you take the CMA next.

00:33:53.590 — 00:34:04.510 · Esther Great. And to everyone listening, come out and say hi at CMA Marketing Week and send me feedback. I really want to hear what we can do to make Canadian marketing even stronger.

00:34:07.270 — 00:34:20.270 · Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

What have you learned that has allowed you to adapt and evolve in your marketing career? In today's episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, sits down virtually with Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental, to explore her nine year journey at Elemental. They dive into her progression from Account Executive to Senior Strategist, her loyalty to her craft, her adaptability, and her pursuit of what truly matters.

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23.520 — 00:02:20.140 · Alison For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental and our 2025 CMA AIM Award winner. The AIM Award celebrates achievement of marketing by a rising star in our profession, who is absolutely destined for great leadership roles. Lindsay's speech at the CMA Awards show was equal parts inspiring, entertaining and compelling, and I know that our conversation will be that as well.

Lindsay's journey into marketing began with a background in English literature. She was drawn by what she describes as the fascinating blend of creativity meeting science that defines modern marketing. She's passionate about delivering strong business results through compelling storytelling, creating human narratives that really resonate in meaningful ways.

Lindsay describes her nine year tenure at Elemental as making her a bit of a unicorn in today's agency world, and I absolutely agree for a much longer tenure in one agency than is typically the case, since most people switch about every two years instead of taking that approach. Lindsay has built her career elemental, progressing from account executive to senior strategist.

Her insights into how her generation is learning and developing skills offers a really fascinating window into the future of marketing careers. Like all of us, Lindsay is experiencing firsthand how AI has begun reshaping marketing practices, making them more uniform, scalable, and streamlined, while also raising critical questions about skill development and strategic thinking.

Her perspective on the importance of mentorship in a rapidly changing landscape, as well as how to maintain strategic thinking in an increasingly automated world, makes this conversation as essential listening for anyone interested in marketing's future. And I can also share with our listeners that when you listen to Lindsay, by the end of this conversation, like me, you will feel very, very positive and optimistic about how bright our future marketing is with talented marketers like Lindsay rising through the ranks.

So welcome, Lindsay. It is absolutely wonderful to have you join us on CMA Connect.

00:02:20.180 — 00:02:25.140 · Lindsay Thank you Alison, it's wonderful to be here. And I'm looking very forward to our conversation today.

00:02:25.260 — 00:02:36.020 · Alison Let's start with your story. I'd love to hear what drew you to marketing, and how did you see this as an opportunity to really transform your English literature degree and love of stories into a career?

00:02:36.180 — 00:03:22.820 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I tend to start with saying I didn't choose marketing because I loved ads. I feel very few people maybe do make that choice for that reason. I actually chose it because I've always loved stories. And marketing is where stories can really change outcomes in English Lit.

I learned how to read between the lines subtext. Motivation. Character tension. the gap between what people say and what they mean. So that to me was basically consumer insight in a lot of ways. And marketing gave me a way to take that skill and kind of apply it to real people, real decisions and real businesses.

It's effectively storytelling with consequences. So all of that to say, what definitely drew me in is a mix of that empathy and structure, and you can really feel something and prove it in marketing.

00:03:22.860 — 00:03:48.260 · Alison I absolutely love your definition of storytelling with consequences and beyond consequences, it's storytelling with an ability to have such a significant and important impact on brands and businesses, our economy, and ultimately our communities. So I love that definition. Thank you. I'm also curious, when you were graduating, was marketing and agency roles in particular a career that many of your fellow graduates were thinking of pursuing?

00:03:48.380 — 00:04:35.790 · Lindsay Another great question. Certainly a few, but admittedly, many of my peers went into, you know, the worlds of tech, finance, law adjacent paths and so on. I found that in discussions with them, agency life wasn't necessarily the obvious route. Marketing can definitely feel like a less defined path, and that ambiguity can be intimidating when you're graduating and everyone's asking, what are you going to do?

And you want to have that very kind of clear answer ideally. I also think a lot of people don't realize that marketing is a training ground. You get exposure to categories, audiences, channels, leadership styles and real business problems very quickly. So it's certainly an area that, you know, though sometimes maybe discounted is one very much worth its salt.

And I hope that more, more folks explore when they are looking at that graduation period in their life.

00:04:35.830 — 00:04:40.990 · Alison Now, I'd also love to hear what it meant to you to be recognized with the CMA AIM Award.

00:04:41.030 — 00:05:44.880 · Lindsay Yeah, that was a great honour and even better evening and congrats to the CMA for making it such a fun and impactful evening. But to me, I'd say the CMA Award was never just an individual recognition in reference to the speech I gave. If no one's sick of hearing it at this point, you know, I referenced the idea that if I've seen further, it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants and that's genuinely how I view it.

Any progress I've made has been shaped by the people around me, and that goes multifold. For the mentors who pushed my thinking, the teammates who challenged my ideas and the clients that trusted the process. And that's really what the industry is at its best, is that collective effort to make something better than any one person could on their own.

So in reflection of the award, it certainly felt like that, you know, not just the work, but the environment that makes the work possible. And the CMA, to me represents that spirit of creativity, collaboration and a shared standard of excellence. So it was a great honour and great excitement for myself and all those that I got to celebrate with.

00:05:45.120 — 00:06:24.840 · Alison It was definitely a good celebration and certainly a well deserved celebration. Now, Lindsay, you mentioned that marketing wasn't the most popular choice among your peers, in large part because it really can be pretty overwhelming for students to understand what marketing roles are, given the breadth and certainly complexity of our profession.

Obviously, from a CMA perspective, from a professional perspective, we do want to be a desired destination for students in the months and years ahead. So what do you think we can do to help the next generation better understand and navigate this complexity and make more competitive and desirable on par with tech and finance when it comes to talent?

00:06:25.120 — 00:07:29.450 · Lindsay I think we have to stop explaining marketing like it's a list of job titles. You know, it's more of a system overall. And the best way to maybe demystify it is to teach some of those fundamentals - human behaviour, business strategy, creative problem solving, and the measurement of all those things.

Once you can get a grasp on those four pillars, every specialization becomes less overwhelming, especially to those who maybe don't have the full visibility or insight. And when it comes to tech and finance, you know, specifically, I find that they can sell certainty, you know. Clear ladders, clear compensation narratives, prestige signals.

You know, all the things that go into that. And I think where marketing can expand is by selling its impact. You know, you get to shape culture and build brands that people live with and drive real business outcomes, just like tech and finance can. So if we want that talent and future marketers to walk through our doors, I think we need to show that marketing is certainly anything but fluff and a great opportunity to build a career and life around.

00:07:29.530 — 00:07:56.770 · Alison That was so well said, and it's also incredibly timely. We have recently launched the CMA Marketing Impact Study that does exactly that. It quantifies the mission critical role that marketing plays in building Canadian businesses, increasing our country's ability to innovate, and dramatically contributing to our economy and GDP.

So that will give us some very valuable tools to really entice the next generation of talent to.

00:07:56.810 — 00:08:20.940 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great effort, and I think the other piece is being willing and ready to have some fun with it. You know, I think of all the ads and jingles and brands that stick in my head as some of my favourites, and it's not just a moment in time. It really does stay with us as we move through our lives, and it's something that everyone hopefully will get more and more clarity around and be interested in.

00:08:21.260 — 00:08:36.780 · Alison Absolutely. Now, you've been at Elemental for nine years and you started as an account exec, moved to Senior Strategy and calling yourself a bit of a unicorn for how long you've been with one agency. So what's kept you engaged for nine years, and why have you chosen this less traditional approach?

00:08:36.820 — 00:09:44.350 · Lindsay I stayed with Elemental through many different roles and seasons of it, because I ultimately kept getting new problems to solve and people that I worked with, I really wanted to solve those problems with. You know, the work changes, the clients change, the ambitions change. And that's one of the most appealing things about marketing on a whole is no one day looks the same, so I never felt like I was repeating a year.

It also certainly helped that Elemental is the kind of place where you can be multidimensional. I didn't have to pick one identity early, and I think why that really worked for me is I didn't chase a title as much as I chased the skill stack. I wanted to understand the whole machine, not just one part of it.

And that's kind of what made the less traditional or unicorn path, for lack of a better phrase, something that made sense for me. I could connect the dots across, you know, account leadership to creative and strategy and just work with wonderful humans all along the way, so that that was something that was important to me in my personal growth, was understanding that it's not just that title, it really is about that personal development and professional development as you move through day to day and week to week.

00:09:44.390 — 00:10:25.280 · Alison It's such a smart approach to build your marketing toolkit, but more importantly, to build your ability to evolve and be curious and learn new skills. That's always been so important to a successful career in marketing. And when we look at the dramatic change AI and elsewhere is bringing to not just marketing but the world at large, the ability to pivot and be comfortable with ambiguity and be open to change will serve you very well in the years ahead too.

Now, you chose marketing for the blend of creativity meets science and the important role it has in building business. So let me hear a bit about the work that you're proudest of and the impact that it's had.

00:10:25.520 — 00:11:59.170 · CHECK THIS SECTION Yeah, I'll start higher level in that, you know, overall, I'm most proud of work that connects emotionally and drives the outcomes that we've all set out to achieve together. One without the other, to me, means we didn't really hit the nail on the head. So overarching certainly the work that kind of connects those two paths.

And then as far as specific work, you know, I was reflecting the other day on some work we did for Meridian and we launched a campaign called World of Numbers, which was very exciting because it really did reframe a traditional kind of transactional category of FI into something human and relatable, helping us kind of differentiate the brand and strengthen engagement.

A similar answer goes for some of the work we do with Canada Life. Um, Life Doesn't Move in a Straight Line, really just capturing that human insight and truth that no matter who you are, the differences and similarities can be there. But you know, it does look different for every Canadian. So making a brand feel a little bit more empathetic and relevant, especially in these, uh, wild and fast times, is certainly some of the work I'm very proud of and in both cases didn't just resonate creatively, it helped shift perception and build a stronger connection with their audiences.

We saw amazing brand lift, not to distill it all down to one KPI, but, um, I'm excited to continue kind of measuring that growth and working through unique challenges like that for clients that are trying to understand how do we show that we understand the Canadian consumer in a time where everything can feel quite overwhelming.

00:11:59.250 — 00:12:10.610 · Alison Now, some of my most powerful learning has come from the mistakes I've made along the way. So do you have a lesson that you've learned the hard way, that you'd be open to sharing? And hopefully by sharing, spare someone else from making the same mistake?

00:12:10.770 — 00:13:06.380 · Lindsay Where to start? There have been many lessons along the way. I think I would prioritize probably two for the next generation of marketers, because it's something that you certainly learn the hard way, I would say in every instance. But I'll start with I learned that a smart strategy can still fail if it's too complex to activate.

So while you may have this, you know, wonderful and compelling idea, if you cannot translate that to execution, it doesn't really matter how wonderful that strategy appeals. So that would be number one. And then I'd say number two, learning to kill ideas that I loved if they weren't true to the audience, you know. In marketing and advertising, we love all of our children.

But it often comes down to what is going to resonate with our target audience, and bearing them in mind and not carrying any personal biases through the process is always a good reminder to those starting out their careers.

00:13:06.420 — 00:13:20.380 · Alison Those are such great lessons learned, Lindsay, thank you very much for sharing. Now, I know from our conversations that mentorship is hugely important to you and crucial to helping build future marketing leaders as well. So how have you been fitted for mentorship so far in your career?

00:13:20.580 — 00:14:17.110 · Lindsay Mentorship, I would say, is one of the most important facets of marketing, certainly, but really any industry that somebody could be entering. It really helped me build confidence faster than I ever could have alone. I've said, you know, internally to some of my mentors themselves, you know, that I'm very thankful for the fact that they gave me language for what I was sensing but couldn't necessarily articulate yet.

And the right mentor doesn't just give answers. They teach you how to think, how to frame a problem, and how to hold your own in rooms you haven't necessarily earned on paper yet. Um, so I've benefited from working with some fantastic people along the way. You know, Dustin Brown, Debbie Bolton and so on.

So I just feel incredibly blessed to have had that opportunity. And I think mentorship is certainly a cornerstone of marketing, and that more and more folks should look for opportunities to mentor and be a mentee.

00:14:17.350 — 00:14:40.870 · Alison Now, I've had great mentors, and I've also really enjoyed being a mentor, and I joked with many of my mentees that I actually probably learned more from them than they learned from me. With our industry evolving so rapidly, that's even more true. Senior marketers are learning alongside junior colleagues to a greater degree than ever before.

So how do you think that might change the mentor and mentee relationship?

00:14:40.950 — 00:15:37.030 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great question. I think, you know, the traditional perspective of mentorship and mentee relationships is that there's certainly more of a hierarchy there. Maybe, you know, a mentee is there more to listen, versus the mentor is there more to instruct? And to your point, Alison, I think where we are today, mentorship is much more collaborative.

You know, juniors might be faster at certain tools, whereas seniors might be stronger at judgment and taste. And I find that the best new mentor relationships are less top down and more, for lack of a better phrase, copilots. You know, you trade strengths and seniors help with some of those decision making frameworks, while juniors can help with new workflows and platform fluency.

I swear every other day a new platform emerges. But it really helps keep everybody humble and there are information gaps for all of us. And I think having the self-awareness to address that does really lead to pushing everybody forward and all boats rising.

00:15:37.470 — 00:15:50.430 · Alison I love your concept of copilots versus mentor/mentee. We launched our CMA Mentorship Program at the end of last year, and we've got hundreds of people, members engaged and loving it. Maybe we'll think of a rebrand for next year.

00:15:50.470 — 00:15:52.590 · Lindsay There you go. Free of charge.

00:15:54.840 — 00:15:58.160 · Alison CMA CAO Barry is cringing right now as he listens to this.

00:16:00.600 — 00:16:04.480 · Lindsay Hopefully not too badly, but yeah. Copilots, you can have it.

00:16:04.520 — 00:16:05.640 · Alison I love it.

00:16:07.000 — 00:16:16.160 · Alison So it's no surprise that AI is transforming many professions and certainly ours. So how is your role and daily work evolving as a result of AI?

00:16:16.560 — 00:17:07.650 · Lindsay Yeah, AI is, you know, well, it's changing everything to put it plainly. But what I found most is it's changing how quickly we can move from sort of a blank page to first draft in some of our marketing efforts. It's kind of compressing that messy middle, so to speak. You know, when I look at what it's changed for us as an agency and myself in my day to day, it's certainly on some of the pieces, like production, but it's definitely not replacing what matters.

CHECK THIS SECTION And I tend to say that's sort of the beginning of the journey. The insight, the taste, the strategy and the ability to choose the right direction. You know, AI can offer, here is many different paths that you can take or here are multiple different creative executions. But ultimately it's the marketers and the experts and humans that really keep that ability to choose the right path forward.

00:17:07.689 — 00:17:26.650 · Alison So, Lindsay, eons ago when I started my career, I learned so much through doing, hands on experience, trial and error, those important teachable moments. With AI starting to take on some of that initial "doing" work, how do you think your generation will learn and develop those fundamental marketing instincts?

00:17:26.890 — 00:18:35.370 · Lindsay Yeah, I think it's such a great question, you know, instincts come from consequence a lot of the time. And I think if AI removes some of that grunt work, so to speak, we need to replace it with real reps in judgment. You know, the critiquing, iterating, presenting, defending and learning what holds up in market.

I think ultimately juniors should spend less time formatting and more time thinking, and ideally, even failing sometimes to learn those hard lessons. I remember once, you know, sending out one of my first client emails, stressing over all of the words and still having a typo in it. And those are the things that you certainly carry with you.

So I think it's still about giving that permission to have those opportunities in those moments, even though we have all these tools at our disposal to help streamline things like that. And I think that comes down to more of the in-person meetings. And, you know, the face to face of it all and making sure that we uphold that with the most important regard and allow juniors to shadow and again, fail on their own two feet sometimes, but ultimately, yeah, giving the opportunity and the space for all of that, with AI kind of taking over some of the initial things that you learn through.

00:18:35.490 — 00:19:01.580 · Alison When you think back to the powerful lessons you shared, that you'd learn the hard way by making mistakes. No one gets through any career, certainly a marketing career, without making our share of mistakes. And it is such powerful learning that we need to certainly make it safe for juniors to continue learning that way as well.

So as someone who's actively adapting to AI's role in marketing, what are the new competencies that you're finding most essential to develop?

00:19:01.620 — 00:19:55.430 · Lindsay I would say that some of the new competencies are certainly, you know, stay learnable and stay curious and be adaptable to some of those fundamentals. You know, the tools are always going to change. I think, you know, there's a lot of discussion in AI of things are changing so rapidly. And, you know, how do we navigate this?

And I think it honestly comes down to that's kind of always been the way, you know, is it obviously much more topical and moving at a quicker pace? Yes. But you know, you have to stay adaptable to those things and stay hungry about learning new things, the ability to understand people and build value, you know, work on your process and your prompting and stay curious for sure as that landscape changes.

But there's so many opportunities for continued learning, the CMA being a great example of that. Um, so making sure that you're prioritizing that within your career with everything you also have going on?

00:19:55.470 — 00:19:57.510 · Alison Well, thank you for the CMA shout out too.

00:19:57.710 — 00:20:00.310 · Lindsay Hey, you're welcome. I truly believe it.

00:20:00.950 — 00:20:16.750 · Alison Now, one of the ways we all need to prepare for the future is preparing for the reality that there are roles in the future that don't even exist today, that we can't even dream about today, and a lot of roles that we're doing today will no longer exist. So how can we prepare for that?

00:20:17.110 — 00:21:11.280 · Lindsay A great question. I think one way we can prepare for roles that maybe don't exist today is, again, just doing a bit of a postmortem on ourselves, the industry and the work itself. You know, I think we as dreamers and believers tend to look forward all the time, but it's really important to look backward as well and understand what points of the process could benefit from that optimization, and you know where AI can help streamline some of those pieces demise. What could those potential roles look like? How do we prepare our team for integrating with them is going to be a really important part of the process, and it's kind of that internal reflection I think that will help get everyone there.

I know we've been doing a lot on our end as far as you know, what does an AI security and privacy person look like on our team? So it's really just identifying or trying to identify those moments and preparing and bracing for impact for the future.

00:21:11.560 — 00:21:30.360 · Alison So, Lindsay, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Before I let you get on with your busy day, I have one final question for you. I think you know, I end each episode by asking my guest to share a piece of career advice. So as someone absolutely destined to be a future marketing leader, what's one piece of advice that you have for our listeners who aspire to become the same?

00:21:30.440 — 00:22:03.170 · Lindsay This is certainly one of my favourite questions and one of the most difficult to answer, because you want to give multiple different iterations of it. But to simplify it, you know, I would say that probably the advice that I would have is fall in love with the question before you fall in love with the answer.

Great work comes from getting the problem right, more so than anything else, and making sure that you're taking the time to have that curiosity, that passion and interest in people, really, to find out what that question is for you and fall in love with it before you feel like you know the answer already.

00:22:03.650 — 00:22:22.410 · Alison That was a great answer. And because that was such a great answer, I'm going to throw a random question to you. Sometimes senior marketers, senior leaders, have trouble connecting with and coaching and managing younger generations. So as the younger generation, what advice would you give to people like me in managing you and your peers?

00:22:22.810 — 00:23:04.610 · Lindsay A great question. I would say probably the way to best relate to the younger generation of marketers is to try and meet them where they are in all of this. You know, it's a human industry, but I think sometimes with how fast everything is moving, we can forget that. So really understanding the overwhelming nature of where they're coming from with all the change and how to navigate AI and all the different pieces that go into it, and speaking to them as a bit of that copilot, um, that we talked about earlier is going to be a great way to help build those relationships long term and kind of minimize how transactional it feels and more personal. Because those, in my experience, have been the best and longest lasting relationships.

00:23:04.730 — 00:23:19.970 · Alison That is super helpful. I really appreciate it. So Lindsay, this has been an absolute joy. Great insights, great conversation, and absolutely, we have a very, very bright future as a marketing profession in Canada with upcoming leaders like you. So thank you.

00:23:20.010 — 00:23:27.930 · Lindsay Thank you Alison. I always enjoy a chance to connect and chat all things marketing. So this was a wonderful time to spend with you.

00:23:30.050 — 00:23:43.010 · Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada, to decode Canadian origin claims and emerging fraud threats. Josephine explains the critical distinctions between "Made in Canada" and "Product of Canada," how tariffs impact threshold calculations, and practical guidance for avoiding maple washing. The conversation expands to the Bureau's Fraud Prevention Month focus, including the alarming rise of AI-generated scams using deep fakes to impersonate government officials.

00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22.880 — 00:02:16.740 · Alison In an era of renewed Canadian patriotism and heightened awareness of global supply chains, consumers are absolutely paying closer attention than ever to where their products are coming from. With ongoing tariff discussions, a growing desire to support domestic industries, Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims have become more than just marketing messages.

They are promises that Canadians absolutely expect businesses to keep. For this episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada. In her pivotal role, Josephine leads efforts to detect, investigate, and deter false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices across Canada.

With over 25 years of experience at the Department of Justice and Competition Bureau, including significant work as Deputy Executive Director and Senior Litigation Counsel. Josephine has been at the forefront of major enforcement actions involving companies like Amazon, Ticketmaster and Volkswagen.

Josephine expertise extends globally. She served as president of the International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network in 2020, representing Canada among over 65 protection agencies worldwide. Her directorate's mandate includes enforcement under the Competition Act, Consumer Packaging and Labeling Act, the Precious Metals Marketing Act, and Textile Labeling Act, which gives her comprehensive oversight of marketing claims that matter the most to Canadian consumers.

So as we navigate an increasingly complex marketplace where maple washing and misleading origin claims can absolutely undermine consumer trust. Josephine's insights into what constitutes truthful advertising, along with the real world consequences of getting it wrong, have never been more relevant for Canadian marketers, so I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Josephine.

It is a pleasure to host you on CMA Connect, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

00:02:16.780 — 00:02:20.780 · Josephine I'm so glad to be here, Alison. I'm looking forward to our talk.

00:02:20.940 — 00:02:44.220 · Alison We're going to cover a lot of hot topics that are crucial and important to marketers in Canada and also Canadians, so I know we will have a rapt audience. So, Josephine, let's start with why Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims matter so much to both consumers and businesses. Obviously, with renewed Canadian patriotism at the forefront of everyone's mind, how does today's environment compare to what you've seen historically?

00:02:44.260 — 00:03:53.790 · Josephine Well, let me start by saying that in the past, country of origin claims may not have been top of mind for most consumers, but today, Alison, Canadians are far more focused on transparency, on authenticity and knowing where their products truly come from. There are many factors driving this trend today, and I can list some of them, including national pride and that desire to support Canadian made goods.

The commitment to support the Canadian job market and local industry's concerns about the economy and environmental impacts of purchasing decisions, and the belief that Canadian made products are held to higher standards of quality for businesses. I would say honesty and clearly representing product origin builds consumer trust and helps them steer clear of legal complications, which is always a good thing.

On the other hand, misleading claims risk harming consumers, their fair competitors and the wider market and could result in enforcement under the Competition Act and the other relevant legislation when representations are false or misleading.

00:03:53.830 — 00:04:31.240 · Alison That's very helpful, and it's really rewarding in many ways to hear that Canadians, and we've seen this in other research too, Canadians through the tariffs, through the challenging political and economic times, are really embracing Made in Canada and wanting to give back to the local businesses and brands and support our local economy as well.

So there's lots of encouraging reasons for the renewed patriotism that's hopefully having a positive impact on Canada's GDP as well.

Josephine: Absolutely.

Alison: Now, many people don't realize that there's quite a significant distinction between a Made in Canada claim and a Product of Canada claim. Can you explain the difference and what businesses need to know?

00:04:31.280 — 00:06:27.660 · Josephine Sure. I would say that the distinctions are significant, and they're clearly laid out in the Competition Bureau's guidelines that have been updated in March of 2025, so last year. So let me start. And it's a little technical. So Product of Canada is what I refer to as the gold standard. It means virtually all, at least 98% of the direct production costs, including input or materials and labor, are from Canada.

This threshold exists to protect consumers from being misled by claims that imply total Canadian origin. On the other side, we have Made in Canada, which indicates that the majority or 51% or more of the direct costs were Canadian, and this type of claim should be accompanied by a qualifying statement, such as Made in Canada from domestic and imported parts to accurately inform consumers.

I should say that both Product of Canada and Made in Canada representations, the product's last substantial transformation occurs in Canada, and that is the product comes into being in Canada. It isn't merely assembled or labeled or packaged here, it is made into something meaningfully new.

And here, Alison, let me just say, for businesses, it's essential to review the cost breakdowns regularly to ensure compliance with these thresholds, especially if sourcing changes are occurring. We at the Competition Bureau, we evaluate these claims based not only on the literal meaning of marketing materials, but also on how consumers might interpret such claims.

So we would be looking at everything like the words, mix of words, images, illustrations, or even the overall layout. And this is what we call the general impression. So again, it's very important. Clarity and honesty are paramount.

00:06:28.220 — 00:06:39.900 · Alison One of the newer claims I've seen emerging with renewed Canadian patriotism over the last year and a bit is Packaged in Canada. So when might those claims be considered misleading to consumers?

00:06:39.900 — 00:08:17.840 · Josephine So Packaged in Canada for us means like a product arrived mostly finished from another country and only its packaging was added locally. This claim, we would say, could be misleading to consumers if not clearly explained. So the Bureau again encourages the use of qualified claims where the information provided is accurate, relevant and useful.

Let me say that the Bureau again, it looks at not only the words, but the whole concept, the general impression created. Sometimes businesses don't realize or understand this and think that as long as they are truthful, that should be good enough and that is not always the case. Again, the general impression has to be taken into consideration.

For example, one case that we litigated, well, we didn't litigate, but we settled this case, and that was in 2016. So the Bureau investigated Moose Knuckles for concerns relating to advertising and labeling of some of its parkas as Made in Canada. And here, Alison, the Bureau found some Moose Knuckle parkas were marketed as Canadian- made, despite being mostly manufactured elsewhere, only with the finishing touches to the jackets being made here in Canada, like adding the trim or the zipper and the snaps, those were done in Canada.

And with the Competition Bureau, we resolve the matter with the company, who agreed to donate 750,000 over a five year period to Canadian charities, including those providing winter coats to children in need. The company also committed to clearly labeling and advertising, making it explicit when products are made with both Canadian and imported parts.

00:08:17.920 — 00:08:52.770 · Alison That's a great example that speaks to the importance of being fair and truthful to Canadians and how we're marketing, but also the important consequences that businesses will and should pay when they don't follow the letter of the law. Now, for our listeners, we also have an article that we've written around all of the different Made in Canada, Product of Canada claims that elaborates on some of what Josephine has shared.

So we will add it into our listener notes for anyone that's listening and wants to read more. We'll have the link in our notes. So, Josephine, what are some of the common mistakes you've seen businesses make when they've made origin claims?

00:08:52.770 — 00:09:46.010 · Josephine So businesses often make mistakes by failing to provide, for example, appropriate qualifying statements using ambiguous language or misunderstanding the threshold requirements that I discussed earlier. A common issue is overstating the Canadian aspect by relying solely on packaging, a minor modifications or last minute assembly that does not meet the threshold for substantial transformation, which I also mentioned earlier.

Here's an example I can give you to illustrate this point. So consider a situation where the t-shirt is imported into Canada, and then the business prints an image on it. So this last edition of the image is not a substantial transformation. It was a t-shirt before and it is still a t-shirt after the image was added.

Therefore, Printed in Canada or Designed in Canada would be more appropriate in that circumstance.

00:09:46.130 — 00:09:58.300 · Alison That's a very helpful example. Can you walk us through how the current tariff situation impacts the threshold calculation requirements for these claims, and how you take into account both production and manufacturing costs?

00:09:58.540 — 00:11:07.030 · Josephine Yes, that's a really important question, Alison. First, we need to understand that tariffs on imported materials should be included in the cost of non-Canadian content used in the production or manufacturing of products in Canada. Next, we need to know that tariffs can have a direct impact on the costs associated with imported materials, which in turn, of course, may affect the calculation of that Canadian content that we discussed earlier.

When tariffs rise, the cost of those imported goods goes up as well, potentially lowering the overall percentage of Canadian direct costs in the finished product. So here I would say businesses should track and recalculate the production costs whenever tariff rates change. Otherwise, a product that previously met the threshold for the Made in Canada or Product of Canada might fall below that line, rendering the claim potentially false or misleading.

So we as a law enforcement agency, expect businesses to proactively monitor these changes and adjust their origin claims and that any accompanying qualifying statements so that they do not inadvertently mislead consumers.

00:11:07.070 — 00:11:22.350 · Alison Now, we've talked a lot about the business side of the claim, so I'd like to switch gears a little bit and ask you what advice do you have for Canadians to protect themselves from false or misleading origin claims? And what should they do if they suspect a case of maple washing?

00:11:22.430 — 00:12:33.120 · Josephine Well, here, let me say that consumers play a key role in holding the marketplace accountable. So in order to be able to identify that something is wrong, one needs to know what is right. And we therefore encourage consumers, just like businesses and advertisers, to obtain an understanding of the meaning of the relevant terms like Product of Canada and Made in Canada.

I would encourage consumers to look at the Bureau's web page on this topic. Information there is written in plain language with accessibility considerations taken into account. I would say scrutinize claims that Made in Canada or maple marketing, especially if details seem vague, or too good to be true.

I would also say ask questions about the origin of the product, and seek out companies willing to provide honest and clear answers about sourcing. Consumers can also review product labeling for qualifying statements. If you suspect that there's a deceptive practice, consumers can, of course, file a complaint with the Bureau. Reporting suspicious claims, helps others, and supports a fair, competitive marketplace.

So it's really, really important to to report to the Bureau and where appropriate, we will take the necessary enforcement action.

00:12:33.160 — 00:12:52.050 · Alison Now, given the renewed Canadian patriotism, we focused a lot of our conversations so far around Product of Canada and origin claims, but you have a much broader lens, so I'd love you to share what other consumer complaints are top of mind from a marketing perspective, because that's such a valuable and important learning for all of our listeners to understand.

00:12:52.090 — 00:13:52.060 · Josephine Happy to share some additional areas of interest and focus for the Bureau. Alongside the Made in Canada claims, Canadians we know are becoming increasingly concerned about misleading pricing tactics such as drip pricing and incorrect disclosures of ordinary selling price. The Bureau's information centre also frequently receives complaints related to deceptive or misleading environmental claims or greenwashing.

Fake online reviews is another area of focus for us. It's important for companies to recognize that consumers expect transparency at every stage, including advertising, sales, warranties and support strategies. I would say that relying on ambiguity or the omission of key details, can undermine consumer trust and may result in legal consequences, so should be avoided.

Again, to maintain credibility, businesses should thoroughly review and clearly substantiate their claims while keeping their marketing materials up to date with evolving regulations and consumer expectations.

00:13:52.060 — 00:14:57.790 · Alison And beyond it being the right and legal thing to do. We also know from some CMA research how savvy consumers and Canadians are, and they are absolutely holding brands and businesses accountable to be truthful. And when they feel they can't trust a brand in business, they will desert them. 87% of Canadians, if they have one reason to not feel a business or brand is trustworthy anymore, they will stop being a customer and they will talk about it.

So if our listeners need any other motivation and I know they don't, it's in every marketer's best interest to be truthful and authentic in their approach. And all the good marketers that we work with are held by the CMA Code of Ethics, and absolutely don't just do this because it's smart business, but because it's the right thing to do as well.

So as a long standing member of the Fraud Prevention Forum, the CMA is actively engaged in this year's campaign and excited that we're now in Fraud Prevention Month and beyond Fraud Prevention Month, we're looking to stay very actively engaged. So what should Canadians and businesses expect from the Competition Bureau, both now in Fraud Prevention Month but also in the months ahead?

00:14:57.830 — 00:17:18.970 · Josephine So as you mentioned, March is Fraud Prevention Month and the Bureau as Co-Chair, alongside the RCMP and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, joins forces with more than 80 partners from the public and private sector across Canada. The aim is to educate and help Canadians and businesses spot and avoid fraud.

This year marks the 22nd year of the campaign where people can expect online resources about scams and criminal deceptive marketing. Let me say here that fraud is one of the fastest growing crimes in Canada, but it often goes unnoticed. It's hidden behind convincing technology or in everyday online interactions, and many cases go unreported even though they cause serious harm.

And the Bureau, along with its many partners, including the CMA, will be encouraging Canadians to recognize, reject and report fraud. It's important also to say here, Alison, that anyone can be a victim of fraud, individuals, businesses and organizations. And the harm isn't just financial. It can also be emotional and psychological.

And that's why fraud awareness must happen year round and Fraud Prevention Month remains vital. It becomes, for us, a national moment of focus that brings attention, partners and momentum all together. So for businesses again, the Bureau will also be sharing best practices, compliance guides and reminders to uphold honest marketing and fair competition.

I can say here, and I should add, scams are growing in scale, crossing borders and becoming more convincing through AI such as impersonation, fake investment scams to fake employment scams. And earlier this month, we published a public alert about the growing threat of AI generated government impersonators, including the highest government officials, to our Prime Minister.

The piece really explains how scammers are now using deep fakes, clone voices and fake governmental style websites to trick people into giving up their money and their personal information. And the alert basically walks Canadians through the red flags to watch for like unnatural video movements, odd sounding audio or suspicious website URLs and reminds everybody to verify messages through official channels.

It's an important update, and I encourage everybody to visit the Bureau's site for full information.

00:17:19.050 — 00:17:32.970 · Alison Josephine, you're so right that the frauds are becoming so much more sophisticated, and absolutely any one of us can be susceptible and taken in by a fraud. What do you think holds Canadians back from reporting it when it happens to them?

00:17:33.170 — 00:18:21.660 · Josephine That's a good question. And, you know, we know from the statistics that only 5 to 10% of frauds get reported to law enforcement, whether it's the Bureau, Police Agencies or the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. Having practiced in this area for a while and being part of the campaign, I can tell you it's a number of things.

It's sometimes it comes to embarrassment, so the victims don't want to come forward and say that they fell for this scam. Other times, it's about the amount of money they may have lost and it wasn't so huge. So it's not worth taking the effort of reporting to law enforcement. And this is what is absolutely wrong.

Because if you don't report to law enforcement, we can't get ahead of it and we can't stop it. So again, the message is to report, report to the Bureau, report to the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre or to your local police.

00:18:21.780 — 00:18:30.700 · Alison And if it's helpful to our listeners, we can include a link to the alert that you spoke about in the notes to the podcast, so that it's easy for people to access on your site.

00:18:30.740 — 00:18:32.260 · Josephine That'd be great. Thank you.

00:18:32.300 — 00:18:48.310 · Alison Now I end each episode by asking our guest to share one piece of career advice. So with over 25 years in competition law and consumer protection, what wisdom would you share with our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps and hold a senior leadership role?

00:18:48.470 — 00:20:31.680 · Josephine Well, thank you very much for asking me that question. If I can offer one humble piece of advice, I would first say build your career on curiosity, not certainty. Marketing and compliance change every five minutes and certainty gets old fast, in my opinion. But curiosity, that keeps you adaptable, relevant, and honestly is a lot more fun.

Instead of thinking I should already know this, try, "Oh that's interesting. Tell me more." Be the person who asks why a consumer reacts the way they do, or why a rule is shifting, or why the business wants to try something bold. You don't need to have all the answers. You just need to keep learning and keep that curiosity switched on.

Now, professionally, I began my government career clerking with the judges of the Tax Court of Canada. Then I moved to working with the judges of the Federal Court of Appeal to moving to the Department of Justice as a senior litigator, to moving to the Competition Bureau Legal Services Unit as senior executive, and negotiating many deals for the Bureau to where I am today as Deputy Commissioner.

It takes curiosity to try new things, face new challenges, and develop new ideas in different settings. It's also important to rely on solid role models whom you can trust and who support you. And let me say that my mother is the source of everything I am. She taught me resilience, compassion, and the importance of serving others, values that underpin any healthy, respectful and inclusive society.

It has been an honour and privilege to serve Canadians as a member of the Public Service through the Competition Bureau.

00:20:31.760 — 00:21:10.930 · Alison Thanks so much, Josephine. You're absolutely right, that curiosity over certainty is has always been important, but it is mission critical today when not just the marketing world, but the business world is changing at a pace that we have never seen before. So for any of us to think we have all the answers is just a fool's game.

I also love the shout out to your mom. My parents were pivotal in shaping who I am, both professionally and personally, so I can absolutely relate to how important it is to, and how lucky we both are to have had parents to shape us that way. Now, I said that was my last question, but your answer prompted me for another one. Of all the careers you could have pursued I'd love to hear why you pursued a career in public service.

00:21:10.970 — 00:22:36.500 · Josephine For me, it's important to serve the public. And it's, it's a higher calling. And from a side of lucrative, it's not as much lucrative. But there's other things that brought me to the public service. And for me, it's that public calling, that ability to help Canadians, to serve Canadians, to make meaningful changes in different contexts.

And, you know, as a young lawyer in the Department of Justice, I was given early opportunities to be part of the Court systems, which maybe in private sector, doesn't happen as quickly. And in the current role that I'm in, I just find it so rewarding to be able to make a difference in society, make a change, help consumers, and in particular, yes, in the world of business, where there's on one side, the business wants to advance in its money investments.

On the other side, there's the consumer that's going to depend on the business to be truthful, to be honest. And for me, it's it's been such a rewarding experience to be able to hopefully impart some information to Canadians to help them be more wary of of what is out there. Ask questions. Be smart. I always say knowledge is is your best form of power.

So yes, I'm I'm quite pleased with the decisions I've made and I encourage, I encourage anyone who's interested in a career in the public service to really take time to reflect, because it is quite rewarding and quite satisfying in so many ways.

00:22:36.820 — 00:22:47.710 · Alison Josephine, thank you very much. On behalf of our listeners and the Canadian Marketing Association, I'm very pleased that you chose a career in the public service. And thank you for making a very important impact on our country.

00:22:47.750 — 00:23:11.070 · Josephine Well, thank you, Alison, for all the great work that you've been doing at this in the CMA during a remarkable period of growth and forward-looking initiatives. And I know this is maybe one of your last podcasts. So on behalf of the Competition Bureau, myself, my colleagues, I just want to wish you the very best as you head towards this next chapter in the months ahead.

So congratulations to you.

00:23:11.350 — 00:23:14.870 · Alison Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thanks for a great conversation as always.

00:23:14.870 — 00:23:15.990 · Josephine Thanks, Alison.

00:23:18.270 — 00:23:31.270 · Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Are you prepared to future-proof your brand with AI? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with IBM's AI experts Alexis Zamkow, Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing at IBM Consulting, and Miglena Nikolova, Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead at IBM Canada, to explore how marketers can move from AI experimentation to real business impact. With 70% of creative work being busy work, IBM has used AI to slash legal approval cycles from 6 weeks to 6 days. As ChatGPT challenges Google's search dominance, marketers need to learn how to 'market to machines' that are making decisions for consumers.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:25:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:25:17 - 00:00:51:01 Alison In today's episode, we explore a topic that is top of mind for all marketers - how to future-proof ourselves, our teams and our businesses, especially when it comes to Gen AI. Our CMA research found that future-proofing is a top priority for 97% of Canadian marketers. This includes understanding how technologies like AI are impacting marketing, as well as changing consumer behaviours and best practices.

00:00:51:03 - 00:01:24:14 Alison The good news is that 74% of CMA members are using Gen AI tools for work at least weekly. This actually exceeds the average of 62% among Canadian knowledge workers that include academics, physicians, engineers, and scientists. So we're certainly off to a good start, but there is absolutely a lot more to do since AI is playing an increased role in brands and a more important part in day to day life in Canada. Today, I'm happy to be joined by two marketing leaders from IBM who are living this transformation from both the creative and the technical sides.

00:01:24:15 - 00:01:48:08 Alison Today's conversation is not about the latest AI tool or the newest capability. It's about the practical, sometimes messy work of incorporating and leveraging AI and marketing in business and helping future-proof your brand. Alexis Zamkow is the Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing within IBM Consulting, where she's at the forefront of helping CMOs navigate the generative AI transformation.

00:01:48:10 - 00:02:23:00 Alison Alexis specializes in translating complex AI capabilities into practical marketing solutions, helping organizations move from proof of concept to skilled implementation while addressing the critical challenges of cost management, change management, and governance. Miglena Nikolova brings over 20 years of marketing and communications expertise. She currently serves as Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead for IBM Canada. At IBM, she's exploring how Gen AI is reshaping creativity and authenticity in their marketing and also leveraging AI tools to enhance productivity and innovation.

00:02:23:02 - 00:02:26:01 Alison Welcome, Alexis and Miglena. It's great to have you with me today.

00:02:26:03 - 00:02:28:07 Alexis It's great to be here. Thanks for having us.

00:02:28:09 - 00:02:48:22 Miglena Thank you, Alison, for this warm welcome and introduction. And I would also like to add that Alexis and I are very active in the Canadian marketing community. I sit on the CMA Creativity Council and Alexis is part of the Artificial Intelligence Committee. So in this podcast, we would also be representing the work that we do as part of these rewarding assignments.

00:02:49:00 - 00:03:07:16 Alison Well thank you for being among our highly engaged CMA members who are helping provide a lot of great thought leadership and a lot of great discussion and debate around hot topics that are important to everyone in our profession. I would love to start with your personal AI journeys. So how are you each using AI both personally and professionally?

00:03:07:21 - 00:03:09:12 Alison Miglena, do you want to kick things off?

00:03:09:14 - 00:03:38:14 Miglena Absolutely. Alison, thank you for this question. Because, you know, scaling AI is very much about how we, on a personal level are adopting the new ways of working. And personally, I use it for research, note-taking, often for fun things and projects I'm exploring outside of work. One of the questions I'm pondering on the personal side is what it will mean to write a book in the future, because there are just so many challenges and opportunities in this space.

00:03:38:18 - 00:04:05:23 Miglena And on the professional side, for marketing, I use predominantly our Consulting Advantage app, which has so many features and applications that literally the sky is the limit in what we can accomplish. We have access to assistants, agents that can help make tasks much faster and more comprehensive than perhaps we ever thought possible, so we can leverage our agents to help us with image recognition, notes and files analysis,

00:04:05:23 - 00:04:35:23 Miglena PowerPoint generators, summarization. I can give you an example. At a recent marketing event, we hosted over ten separate round tables, each one with notes for the discussion. And then we loaded all the notes in our Executive Summarizer and asked, what were the common themes, what were the unique points, etc. and in minutes, literally, we were able to to generate and share a much more comprehensive and enriching summary of the learnings.

00:04:36:00 - 00:04:48:09 Miglena So I also routinely leverage AI for writing marketing emails, blogs, graphs, social posts from the perspective of our subject matter experts. And really, that saves a lot of time.

00:04:48:11 - 00:05:10:11 Alexis So similar to Miglena, our organization is absolutely committed to ensuring that we use generative AI in all aspects of our business. Now I'm in the offering space, so I help to build new offerings for our customers. And so research is important for us. Synthetic research using different personas, different industry groups. We can run ideas for our offerings

00:05:10:11 - 00:05:37:02 Alexis and value proposition is against those synthetic personas and get some early ideas around, you know, how do we reposition some of our messaging? How do we change some of our offerings to address some of the, the big concerns, that maybe some of our customers have so we are really focusing in on how to solve for those concerns. And how to make sure that our brand is true to the essence of how we're positioning ourselves.

00:05:37:04 - 00:05:58:04 Alexis So on an offering perspective, you know, there's a lot of great ways that generative AI can support a marketer. Idea generation, we're trying to apply the gen AI to come up with, you know, what's the next great ideas that our clients are really going to take a hold of. So ideation is definitely an area of interest.

00:05:58:04 - 00:06:17:07 Alexis And then a lot of the pragmatic things that Miglena mentioned. So when we're writing copy, if I want to get it really personal to an industry or to a specific influencer, we leverage personas to be able to make sure that our messages are bang on as to what that individual's needs are and, to make it really highly personalized.

00:06:17:09 - 00:06:41:20 Alexis So it is embedded within the entire offering area. But at the same time, I work with clients on how they're embedding it in their own operations, so across the entire end-to-end marketing content, supply chain and campaign development, we're coming up with great ways that agents can work simultaneously with humans to improve productivity, also to drive revenue.

00:06:41:22 - 00:07:05:06 Alexis We're moving very rapidly from a situation of testing, trialing, piloting to scaling. Scaling does require different capabilities to be addressed, and we're working with our clients to help them to do that. IBM, as you guys know, is committed to AI for a very long time. We go back to Jeopardy and Watson. We are steeped in the AI space.

00:07:05:08 - 00:07:50:19 Alexis And so as things have evolved over the last, you know, probably five years as ten AI has really come to the forefront, our organization has also moved into that space. And our own marketing teams have embraced gen AI really from the beginning. To be able to create a process and a workflow that has agents supporting the entire content supply chain from insights development, being able to scan our product information and make recommendations on how to best position products, the content creator, which then allows you to take, pre-configured templates and be able to assign - here's the target market, here's the product that I'm interested in, here's the key messages and gives you different options

00:07:50:19 - 00:08:20:12 Alexis around how can you position this. And it isn't about completing it. It's about the start, the starting of the process to allow the creativity to accelerate. And then once that that creative has gone through the process of initial approvals, validation was always a big challenge for us. And we knew that that cycle had to be shortened. So we built agents to be able to take our legals, our brand standards and be able to apply that to the content that we were creating

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:43:00 Alexis to be able to really shorten up that cycle. Didn't eliminate it. And for most of our clients, you know, elimination isn't the game right now, but to be able to reduce the number of iterations required to go through the legal process was able to allow us to move from something that would normally take six weeks to be able to create, say, a campaign for a social media engagement, six weeks to six days.

00:08:43:02 - 00:09:01:01 Alexis And I didn't say six minutes, but eventually we might get to six minutes. But right now it is about those iterative improvements that you start automating tasks that you feel do not require that human element, and you supervise where you need to.

00:09:01:01 - 00:09:27:17 Alison Great examples, and that really is powerful to see how gen AI can help all of us scale, certainly, regardless of whether you're in a big business, a startup, or somewhere in between, the scalability of the technology is, certainly a major benefit. Now, I know IBM's recent research found that 67% of CMOs are planning to implement gen AI within the next year, and 80% within the next 24 months.

00:09:27:19 - 00:09:40:06 Alison So for marketers who are wanting to move beyond experimentation to implementation, where should they start? And in particular, what sorts of resources, training and support systems are necessary to help them succeed?

00:09:40:08 - 00:10:07:12 Alexis I look at one of the biggest challenges and working with clients to be able to scale AI is when you're in a proof of concept it's a very controlled environment. You bring in a certain number of data elements. You have a very restricted output requirement and you have a lot of supervision. What I've seen is as clients move from these very controlled environments where you're really testing to make sure the models are operating without hallucinations and to the level of quality you need,

00:10:07:12 - 00:10:41:23 Alexis the data that is used by these agents is really critical to be clean, tagged and accurate. And what we're finding is that first step is as you move from a pilot, when you can really control all those pieces, to now dipping into your CDP, your customer data platforms, and if that data and your data asset repositories, if that data isn't well structured and set up for success, no matter what and how intelligent your models are, you're not going to get an output that is of the quality you need.

00:10:41:23 - 00:11:01:13 Alexis So going back to basics and ensuring that the data that you are feeding into your large language models, your multimodal models, making sure you have that in a structure, in a format that's really going to give you a high quality output is is job one. The next step is really finding the right use cases to scale.

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:32:06 Alexis You can try lots of things. But if you are going to pick a use case that is very narrow in impact, the business case will be really challenged. So we we recommend our clients sit back and look at the opportunity platforms, look at the opportunities out there, and really make informed choices around risk and reward. Which use cases provide an appropriate level of risk, but with enough reward to really justify the business case.

00:11:32:06 - 00:11:52:22 Alexis Because investments are required as you scale, and you have to get these wins along the way. You can't wait a year or a year and a half to get the wins. So we suggest, you know, you really have to build out a roadmap of appropriate use cases that you feel comfortable to implement, but to also ensure you have a return on investment.

00:11:53:02 - 00:12:28:02 Alexis And then finally, the governance and the supervision. Can't separate that from this exercise as you scale. Because here is where the rubber hits the road and full automation could cause concerns about what is being put into the market. So ensuring you have governance of your systems, governance of your process, and also ensuring that your people are skilled and have the right metrics and the right management to be able to execute to the desired outcome. And change management is absolutely critical at every step of this process, and even more so as we're scaling.

00:12:28:04 - 00:12:45:06 Alexis So, Alison, you mentioned that a lot of our CMOs are moving to this to this next level. And we ask the question, so what is your biggest challenge as you're moving to this next level? And it was really interesting because what came out - two things. One was the cost and the cost isn't the technology. The cost is I have to retrain my people.

00:12:45:06 - 00:13:20:02 Alexis I have to fix my processes. I have to clean my data. There are so many tangential elements that are required to make these machines work the way you want them to. So there's this whole cost factor that am I really set up for success? But then the next most important aspect was change management. I am surprised, but I hear this often, is that there are a lot of people who just are a bit resistant to change, and how do you make sure that these brilliant, creative people in marketing do not feel minimized by using a tool to maybe begin the first draft of some concepts, or to begin some first illustrations.

00:13:20:03 - 00:13:42:15 Alexis Overcoming human resistance and skills gaps is the second and absolutely most, you know, critical element to long term success. And that is where CMA is doing some really great things around helping companies to really embrace and learn how to do change management around tools like gen AI.

00:13:42:17 - 00:14:16:12 Miglena Absolutely. And you know, those were great points really. And you know, for me, being on the internal side and not really working directly with clients, I think as marketers, the onus is on us to take responsibility for our own learnings so we're not left behind in this world of the future and this, future of work. And we should be thinking about the jobs that we do today and how that job, each of the tasks we do can be disrupted by AI and then disrupt ourselves and learn and build from there.

00:14:16:12 - 00:14:53:20 Miglena Right? Just understand how we can enhance what we do with AI, how we can really leverage that new technology. And what I find is also that, a lot of marketers work for organizations that are not yet at that critical stage where the employees are empowered and, have access to tools and even are encouraged experimenting. And so depending on the type of organization that you work for, I think it's important to think about what kind of exposure and adoption that your organization currently has and how you can learn.

00:14:53:20 - 00:15:04:22 Miglena How are you experimenting, what tools are you using today, and how you can supplement that externally in order to continue to learn and grow to really future- proof yourself.

00:15:05:00 - 00:15:36:12 Alexis So, Alison, just one other, point to build off of what Miglena just mentioned in adoption. When we first adopted it at IBM, this was a corporate wide commitment. And it wasn't a small group of really excited people in IT or in a small group in a contact centre. It was from the top down. And where I see success globally is where the C-suite makes a commitment that this will become embedded in the DNA of the company.

00:15:36:12 - 00:16:02:10 Alexis And it is not a sideline project that you just stand it up and hopefully it works. And it's not something that just because the shareholders are expecting it in, you know, the roadmap. It truly needs to be embedded as a way of working and at all levels, not just at the hands-on level, but strategically we have to be thinking about this needs to be embedded in the front of the shop, in the back of the shop.

00:16:02:10 - 00:16:30:00 Alexis The customer experience when you're looking at generative tools needs to be completely knitted between sales, service, marketing, commerce. Once you start bringing a generative capability to the forefront, building it in isolation will not deliver the rewards needed. So even more so important that marketing, sales, service, these platforms need to work together. The executives need to work together.

00:16:30:02 - 00:16:43:16 Alexis It will not deliver what's needed in isolation. So these big commitments really take a bit of time. And if you don't have senior leadership support, it really is hard to scale beyond some exciting pilots.

00:16:43:18 - 00:17:05:15 Alison It's such a great point Alexis. And when I've talked to a number of different organizations, including a number of our members, you're absolutely right. It's not just the C-suite. It has to actually come from the CEO. Those are such important parts to get beyond the challenge of change management that regardless of whether it's gen AI, new office, any time there's change, the change management element tends to be the most challenging part of that.

00:17:05:15 - 00:17:14:23 Alison So those are really helpful suggestions in how to help incentivize and help teams see the potential in this instead of the intimidation.

00:17:15:01 - 00:17:45:05 Alexis But also how you hire people. So Alison, this is another bit of learning that we have internally that, there's certain skill sets that really are coming to the forefront. And it's not always coding, it's about creativity. It's the ability to have good judgment. It's the ability to think more in an agile fashion. And those skills are actually really, really critical to be able to embrace these new technologies and get the most out of them.

00:17:45:05 - 00:18:09:04 Alexis So some of the hard skills are not as nearly as important as the soft skills of understanding how to work with new data sources, new inputs, new ways of working, collaboration. That is an HR challenge now, when you're hiring people, you have to hire for someone who will embrace these capabilities to make your workforce work for you.

00:18:09:06 - 00:18:29:14 Miglena And as you can imagine, especially from the perspective of my work on the CMA Creativity Council, we spend a lot of time thinking about that and discussing how AI will really impact even the meaning of creativity. All the new opportunities, the expanded creative horizons, all the new dimensions that are available to marketers.

00:18:29:16 - 00:18:51:07 Alexis And CMO leadership. We see that in the decisions that are being made now. And gen AI, I usually work with the CMO in concert with that CIO. It's the CMO telling the CIO, these are the things that I need and I need your help to deliver those. CMOs are becoming much more technology savvy and need to be because their employees are too.

00:18:51:09 - 00:18:56:13 Alexis So so that's this is just hastening that discipline change and that outlook change that we see.

00:18:56:15 - 00:19:07:07 Alison So your experience working with clients globally gives you a really unique lens. So I'm curious to hear how AI usage by brands in Canada compares to other countries that you're working with.

00:19:07:08 - 00:19:30:14 Alexis Well, it all depends on the industry, Alison. Because I actually think, you know, certain industries versus certain geographies are embracing gen AI faster. I see retail being on the forefront, and they usually are on the forefront of new technologies because of the demands that consumers are putting on retailers, that they expect things to be in real time, in any channel, in any place, at any time.

00:19:30:14 - 00:19:54:09 Alexis And they expect it to be very conversational. So I believe that and I see our own retailers in Canada really stepping up. So the retail space is right there, and services. And services have always been very customer-centric. Any company that really has to be customer-centric when it comes to marketing and gen AI is on the forefront. You think about, you know, the Hyatts, and the Marriotts of the world where there's a lot of consumer interaction.

00:19:54:09 - 00:20:13:17 Alexis CPG companies are embracing it, but for different reasons. For a lot of the efficiencies they're getting out of the assets they need to build, to be able to be as more personalized. Where I'm seeing companies that are not embracing as quickly is the financial services and insurance. A little bit more conservative, a little bit more concerned about data.

00:20:13:17 - 00:20:44:06 Alexis But these organizations are beginning to recognize the benefits, maybe not in direct consumer dialogs, but in customer service, back office. There is a movement afoot, even in those areas, to be a little bit more nimble when it comes to generative tools. So the Canadian market, I think I see it almost at par with what I'm seeing in Europe, but it's the industries themselves that are moving at different paces and the way of adoption specifically for marketing.

00:20:44:08 - 00:21:07:11 Alison Building on the finance piece, obviously there's a whole regulatory piece of that as well, where they, to a point, don't have any choice but to be a little bit slow in adoption. I also have some notable exceptions. From what I've heard, the CEO of RBC is absolutely, this is top of mind for him, and he seems to be more on the forefront of this than maybe some of the other financial institutions in Canada.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:36:04 Alexis That is their business. I mean, RBC is always been on the forefront of AI. So that is a transition that is an easier transition for folks who really appreciate and accept the need to have intelligence in process. They can move faster. And so yes, I do see the banks once they get through some of those legal hurdles and some of the PII concerns and whatnot, they will be equally robust in their customer experience streams as other organizations.

00:21:36:08 - 00:21:46:06 Alison So Miglena and I'd love you to share what future trends you see emerging. Now, given the speed that AI is moving at, let's timestamp this question about and focus on the next 24 months.

00:21:46:08 - 00:22:05:10 Miglena Yes, Alison, I think the biggest question is about adoption. And we talked about the host of all new skills that like creative thinking, collaboration, that really organizations really need to be given the runway to build that up. And the real value will come when teams pair the technology

00:22:05:17 - 00:22:35:10 Miglena With good data and solid processes and clear governance with human creativity. And so it's not just about how AI can help us build better creative, it's also about how we can improve the creative process with better data, better process and productivity. 70% of creative people's work is busywork that's not creative. And by leveraging the power of AI, we can free up that time and really make careers a lot more interesting.

00:22:35:10 - 00:22:42:11 Miglena So the next year, I think it's really about moving into this new way of working for a lot of organizations.

00:22:42:16 - 00:23:20:11 Alexis An area that I'm spending quite a bit of time on is area of AEO and GEO. Search is so important for marketers and Search drives awareness, interest, engagement and purchase. And we're seeing now that the dominance that Google has had in Search is starting to be challenged with the new LLM search engines, the ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude. As you and I start using these tools on a day to day basis, they are replacing our traditional methods of going and searching for things, and they're making the decisions for you.

00:23:20:11 - 00:23:47:03 Alexis And when you look at AI overviews, when you start looking at the summaries that are coming in ChatGPT, these engines are going to sites, they're finding out the information, and then they're making decisions and they're setting priorities. What is the best luxury car in the market? What are the best deals for telecommunications? And as these tools start dominating the outcomes of searches, marketers need to start thinking about how do they market to machines.

00:23:47:03 - 00:24:14:21 Alexis Because the machines are making the decisions of how your brand is being presented to millions of consumers. So is your site being crawled properly? Are your citations being pulled out properly? Are you being even shown when those summaries are coming up? I am seeing this being a real groundswell of concern, because so many marketers depend on that initial search activity. And the buying activity,

00:24:14:21 - 00:24:33:05 Alexis GPT just came out with an ability to go right through from their recommendation into a purchase on Etsy. And they're going to add other merchants. So so these engines are really replacing a lot of the traditional methods around which consumers interact with brands.

00:24:33:07 - 00:24:47:18 Alison Now Miglena, back to you for a rapid fire question. How do you maintain authenticity and protect brand integrity when using AI, and in particular, what governance framework should marketers be putting in place to avoid brand missteps?

00:24:47:19 - 00:25:10:12 Miglena Yes, Alison, this is such an important point. How can gen AI enable marketers to deliver, brand compliant content? And, well, the technical answer is going to take you through foundation models and customized user interface, in practice what that means is that any off the shelf solution cannot be trusted to do the job that you need it to do as an organization.

00:25:10:12 - 00:25:35:08 Miglena It's really important, especially at the large enterprise level, that we use tools and resources that are, if not proprietary, at least customized, trained on our branding guidelines. So tone of voice, trained on reference, our reference images, right? In that way, we can trust that the output is brand-compliant and that the images are going to be free of copyright infringement issues.

00:25:35:08 - 00:25:52:20 Miglena There's such a big impact on creativity, but also there are these challenges that we have to keep in mind. In order to trust the output, you really need to be able to trust the inputs and to have a human in the loop, which we talked about. Do the fact checks, the gut checks, the refinements before hitting the live button.

00:25:52:22 - 00:26:13:10 Alison Now, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and it's clear that this is a very rich and robust area, and we could be talking for hours. Before we go, I would like to broaden the conversation and end by asking each of you to share one piece of career advice. You both have great careers, and I know a number of our listeners would love to hear how they could achieve a career like you have had.

00:26:13:10 - 00:26:15:05 Alison And Miglena, why don't you kick us off?

00:26:15:07 - 00:26:39:15 Miglena My piece of advice I always say to marketers is to be curious. Curiosity can drive exploration in different areas, and sometimes in our day to day jobs, we're really operating in a box. We don't have the breadth of experiences and opportunities to test and learn and to hear different perspectives. And for that reason, I challenge marketers to be curious and step outside of their box.

00:26:39:17 - 00:27:12:18 Miglena Talk to leaders outside of your organization, find out how they're solving for similar challenges, how they're leveraging the AI opportunity, and go to external events. Talk to leaders from competitors, from other industries in order to get that breadth of expertise and perspectives. And as with any change, keep in mind that when you learn a new skill, and that is new for for all of us, like we are learning as we go, there will be a ramp-up, but doing is really the important part.

00:27:12:20 - 00:27:45:14 Alexis So Miglena, you chuck the number one suggestion right out of my mouth, curiosity. So I'll build on that. Obviously, curiosity is so key, but I'll take it maybe a step further and say curiosity with an open mind that things are going to change rapidly. Having an open mind to being willing to try new things, to take risks, granted, measured risks, but the risks that you take will drive a lot of rewards.

00:27:45:14 - 00:28:14:15 Alexis And if you're in the right organization with the right boss, that will allow you to fail, but to learn from your failures and then accelerate that learning into something really spectacular, that's an absolutely brilliant way to grow your career. So be open-minded. Be willing to take measured risks. Be willing to work with partners. You can't do it alone.

00:28:14:17 - 00:28:32:06 Alexis No one can keep up with this technology and no one can keep up with the ideas. So be open to others ideas and embrace those ideas because we win as a team. You win with partners. This is not a solo game. This is a community activity.

00:28:32:08 - 00:28:52:03 Miglena I would encourage also our listeners to explore the rich resources of the CMA. I know that there has been incredible work that Alison's committee has done as well in launching resources. So make sure that you are leveraging those as well.

00:28:52:05 - 00:29:19:00 Alison Thank you very much for the plug. You're right, we've got a lot of great AI resources and the AI committee that Alexis is part of have created a weekly AI playbook series. We're now produced over 25. And each week it's a new topic. It's very digestible, and it's a really good way to have an ongoing learning opportunity. And then the CMA, we've got a lot of articles, we've got other podcasts around the topic, and we also have a number of AI training programs as well.

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:36:23 Alison So Miglena, I really appreciate that of the plug, and there are absolutely a lot of complimentary AI resources and then some professional development opportunities as well, available through the CMA. I really want to thank you both. It's been an insight-rich conversation, and I'm excited to see, where it goes from here.

Miglena Thank you.

00:29:37:01 - 00:29:44:07 Alexis Thank you Alison. Take care.

00:29:44:09 - 00:29:56:21 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this special episode, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with RBC CMO and CMA Board Chair Alan Depencier, to interview each other as both transition from CMA leadership roles in 2026. They celebrate achievements including 150+ new member organizations, the DMSC and AI playbook success, while unveiling 2026 plans for Marketing Week's national expansion, new councils and much more.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:21 - 00:00:41:08 Alison I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back Alan Depencier, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, to our podcast today, where we will be discussing all that we have planned for the CMA in 2026. This year marks a milestone for both Alan and I, as he is wrapping up his term as our CMA Board Chair, and I will be retiring in May.

00:00:41:14 - 00:00:58:00 Alison So we're also going to take a little bit of time to reflect on our time together, what we've accomplished, and why the CMA has such an important role in future-proofing marketers and our profession. We're going to take a bit of a different approach to the episode, too, with Alan turning the tables on me by asking me a few questions.

00:00:58:02 - 00:01:26:02 Alison Alan was elected to the CMA board in 2019 and has contributed significantly. He's been a member of CMA's Member Engagement and Human Resource Committees, Chaired the Finance and Audit Committee, and served as Board Vice Chair before his appointment as Chair in May 2024. Alan also played a pivotal role in the creation of our CMA NXT program, which helps university and college students bridge the gap between post-secondary education and starting their professional life in marketing.

00:01:26:04 - 00:01:47:01 Alison In addition to all of his outstanding contributions to the CMA, Alan has a really inspiring career in marketing. He has held senior marketing roles at RBC for 21 years, including most recently as Chief Marketing Officer for Commercial Banking and Insurance. Prior to his tenure at RBC, Alan managed consumer packaged goods brands and spearheaded the growth of a startup venture.

00:01:47:03 - 00:01:51:08 Alison So welcome back Alan. I am absolutely looking forward to a great conversation today.

00:01:51:10 - 00:01:59:14 Alan Thanks, Alison. I'm excited to join you once again. And I'm excited that we get to, you know, reverse roles for a bit. I get to ask you some questions.

00:01:59:16 - 00:02:20:09 Alison Definitely going to be a fun one. So, Alan, between your very demanding role as CMO at RBC and your many CMA Board commitments, plus your involvement with the overall CMA, everything from helping create CMA NXT to chairing multiple committees and now being our Board Chair, you've clearly invested tremendous time and a great deal of energy in our profession.

00:02:20:11 - 00:02:25:04 Alison So what drives that passion and what has kept you so engaged with CMA's mission?

00:02:25:06 - 00:02:45:17 Alan Great question Alison. You know, at the core, I believe marketing really matters. When it's done well, it drives business growth, it strengthens brands, and it can genuinely improve people's lives. I see that every day at RBC. What the CMA gives me is a chance to zoom out and help shape that profession as a whole, but not just for one organization.

00:02:45:19 - 00:03:08:22 Alan And what initially pulled me in was the people. You know, when you're surrounded by some of the smartest marketers in the country, you know, tackling some of the biggest issues like AI, privacy, trust, it's incredibly energizing. But it became personal when I saw the impact of what we could actually make on the industry. You know, I'm a much better marketer today by being a part of the CMA, and I would encourage most folks to take advantage of the opportunity that sits in front of them.

00:03:09:00 - 00:03:31:11 Alan CMA NXT is a great example. We didn't just talk about the gap between school and the workplace. We built something that helped students launch their real careers. Seeing the kind of tangible impact, it's super powerful. And honestly, what kept me engaged is that the CMA is where the future of marketing is in Canada is really being shaped. Being part of that, especially alongside leaders like you, has been one of the most rewarding chapters of my career.

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:41:19 Alison Thanks Alan, that means a lot. Now we're going to turn the tables. Although you're not officially off the hook, you get to ask me a few questions, but I'm definitely going to get you back for some other questions later in the podcast.

00:03:41:21 - 00:03:42:13 Alan This is great.

00:03:42:13 - 00:03:43:06 Alison So over to you.

00:03:43:12 - 00:04:07:20 Alan Okay. First question. Alison, you've led the CMA through what I've characterized as a complete transformation. When you look at where we are today versus where we were in the past, with our significantly expanded benefits for members, our AI master series featuring 32 practical playbooks, the DMSC program up-skilling of 1900 marketers and supporting 700 small and medium sized enterprises, and a record member satisfaction scores.

00:04:07:22 - 00:04:11:15 Alan What do you see as a turning point that made this level of change possible?

00:04:11:17 - 00:04:37:19 Alison Oh, you're clearly starting with an easy question I see. So, you know Alan, I really think the turning point was when we truly embraced the CMAs important role and helping future-proof the marketing profession and took a really collaborative approach. So the transformation happened because our Board, our senior leadership team, our overall CMA team and our incredible engaged members all really aligned around the shared vision of what the CMA could become.

00:04:37:21 - 00:04:57:16 Alison And I think back to my first 100 days, at the end of which I had led the creation of CMA's Refined Value Equation, and everyone played a really important role in this, which helped set up the direction for the coming months and the years, and ultimately for the transformation that we've driven together. The board strategic guidance has been absolutely invaluable.

00:04:57:18 - 00:05:19:15 Alison You and the Board didn't just support bold initiatives, you really helped shape them. And since I joined, the Board has been so actively involved alongside our team and our membership. So together, we've really challenge ourselves to think bigger, to create something that could truly serve the profession. And that's led to many great initiatives and our ability to really step up and help future-proof marketers in our profession.

00:05:19:15 - 00:05:41:08 Alison And you highlighted some of the big wins that we've had together. And I think we should be incredibly proud that our member scores 87% for how the CMA is future-proofing marketing. When I step back and think about what I'm most proud of, it really comes down to the fact that we've got all of these incredibly involved members like you, and they really are the real heroes in the transformation.

00:05:41:09 - 00:06:04:05 Alison We have hundreds of senior marketers who are contributing through our Councils and Committees. They're coming together to debate and to learn. They're creating thought leadership that's shaping marketing, supporting our government advocacy and developing the content that really educates our profession and our community. And then we also have an amazing group of rising star marketers from across our membership with our new CMA Aim Advisory board.

00:06:04:07 - 00:06:25:01 Alison And they're really ensuring that we're building strong relevance and engagement for junior members and the future CMOs of the CMA. Plus, we've significantly grown our Chartered Marketer community, I'm super proud of that. And they're all really actively engaged. And those are just a few examples of how it's our overall community really coming together and collaborating that has made us so successful.

00:06:25:06 - 00:06:40:15 Alison And the journey certainly has taught us that CMA's greatest asset isn't our programs or advocacy. It really is the passionate community of marketers who actively engage, volunteer their time and share their expertise to really help advance our profession.

00:06:40:17 - 00:07:02:22 Alan That's great. And I know in previous podcasts you love to ask some of your guests questions about their leadership philosophy. You know, your approach to future-proofing the profession has been remarkable the last few years, and I could go on and on with many different things you've led, whether it's mentoring programs, AI resources, getting more value as part of your membership fees, council structure, the awards programs.

00:07:03:00 - 00:07:08:05 Alan I could go on and on, but my key question is, what's your philosophy on building that kind of sustainable transformation?

00:07:08:09 - 00:07:31:12 Alison Oh, you're making me blush. The real insight is it's not me. It's all of us together. And my philosophy really centres on leveraging collective brilliance. The most sustainable transformation can only happen when you're really inclusive in your approach, and you really look for ways to unlock the expertise that already exists within our community. And Alan, you and the Board are absolutely invaluable partners in this approach.

00:07:31:14 - 00:07:51:16 Alison You didn't just provide governance, you provided really great strategic insight that helped elevate our approach and certainly elevated our initiatives. And when we designed the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, when we brought to life for the first time ever, CMA Marketing Week, Board members shared their expertise and really helped us understand what would resonate with the overall profession.

00:07:51:18 - 00:08:14:15 Alison And then certainly our members are mission critical to what we've accomplished, and our CMA Committees and Councils. So they really act a lot like think tanks that are led by practitioners who are living these challenges daily. The CMA weekly AI playbooks that we launched in 2025 provide really actionable learning and insights in this key area. So they're such a terrific example, because the AI committee is coming together,

00:08:14:15 - 00:08:44:00 Alison they're helping create the playbooks and they're drawing on very real experience with implementing AI in major organizations, and also from leading innovators in Canadian AI companies. We've got a 95% average satisfaction score across all events in 2025, which also really reflects this philosophy. We don't create in isolation. We have engaged members that help design agendas, they're contributing their insights, and they're really sharing their expertise.

00:08:44:06 - 00:09:07:13 Alison And that's why our CMA events can deliver value that you simply can't get anywhere else. So I'm certainly super lucky to be working with the talented and dedicated team at the CMA. They really love the marketing profession. They're deeply committed to helping future-proof it, and they work hard, care deeply, and we also have a lot of fun along the way, which you can never underestimate the importance of fun along the way as well.

00:09:07:15 - 00:09:28:07 Alison So the key insight for me is that transformation really requires participation, not just consumption. Our active members don't just attend our events, they help shape them. They don't just read our thought leadership, they help create it. And that's really how you can build an ecosystem that continuously evolves and improves and will live long beyond my time with the CMA.

00:09:28:09 - 00:09:51:05 Alan Yeah, I think like all great leaders, it's the people that actually make the difference. And I think not only you being a great leader, but the folks you surround yourself with and the community in general has obviously been a big part of your success. And kudos for you to recognize that as you look forward. My next question is, you know, your decision to retire in May comes at a time when many call, you know, one of the peak moments of CMA impact and momentum.

00:09:51:07 - 00:09:56:04 Alan How do you view the timing and what excites you most about the foundation you're leaving for your successor?

00:09:56:06 - 00:10:17:08 Alison So the timing really reflects the strength of the collaborative leadership model that we have. And the transformation, as we both talked about, is never dependent on any one person. It's been built through the partnership between our senior leadership team, our full CMA staff, the Board and our incredible member community. So Alan, you and the Board have been absolutely instrumental throughout this journey.

00:10:17:09 - 00:10:41:23 Alison Your strategic guidance, your willingness to really support bold initiatives, your commitment to excellence, that foundation continues long after I'm gone. And with the Board's oversight, strategic partnership and the strong CMA team will absolutely ensure really strong continuity, which is why I'm very confident in wrapping things up at the CMA later this year. But what excites me the most is the depth of the member engagement that we've built.

00:10:42:01 - 00:11:11:11 Alison We have over 300 members actively involved across our CMA Councils and Committees. Plus we have 200 members who are now involved and benefiting from our new CMA Mentorship Program, which is exclusive to and free for CMA members. And our Mentorship Program really shows how our members are also investing in each other's success. So my successor inherits something extraordinary, a terrific team and a community that is so actively engaged in shaping where Canada's marketing profession is going in the future.

00:11:11:17 - 00:11:40:00 Alison They get to walk into an organization where our Board members and the CMA team have a thriving strategic partnership. Staff are executing with excellence, and we have engaged members who are contributing expertise that enhances everything that we do. So this is never just been about organizational succession. It really is about transferring leadership of a movement. And that movement has such great momentum because it's powered by people who are passionate about marketing's future in Canada, and it's not dependent on any individual leader.

00:11:40:02 - 00:11:47:23 Alan I guess I have to give you the reins back now. And now you have to ask me questions. So I actually like asking questions better than answering questions. It's more fun.

00:11:48:01 - 00:12:07:07 Alison I can totally relate to that. But a test of growth and leadership is being stretched beyond your comfort zone. So you've stretched me. Now I'll return the favour and stretch you by asking you some questions. So Alan, you've had a front row seat to this transformation as Board Chair. So what the accomplishments of the CMA and the Board partnership are you most proud of?

00:12:07:09 - 00:12:11:12 Alison And how do you see the Board's role in sustaining the momentum moving forward?

00:12:11:14 - 00:12:35:13 Alan You know, when I step back and look at the last few years, what I'm most proud of is that we didn't just grow the CMA. We actually made it more relevant. Yes, numbers matter. You know, we've grown by more than 450 member organizations. We've added over 125 new members since 2023. We've had record client satisfaction scores. But behind those numbers are marketers who genuinely see value in the CMA and what it's doing.

00:12:35:13 - 00:13:01:13 Alan And I think when I talk to folks now versus when I talked to them when I first joined, I can feel that enthusiasm, I can feel that passion. They're seeing more value coming from being part of the CMA. And I think that's the qualitative side of kind of looking at the numbers. From a Board perspective, our biggest contribution was helping set the strategic direction and priorities in collaboration with yourself and your leadership team, but more importantly is really that bold execution.

00:13:01:14 - 00:13:21:04 Alan If you look at the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, it's a perfect example. That was one that wasn't traditionally on our radar, and you brought that to us. And after reviewing it as a Board and looking at the opportunity, it's done wonders for the organization. One we've up-skilled more than 2000 marketers helped the majority of them advance their careers and get into the profession.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:49:16 Alan And more importantly, we increased our representation with some groups that we typically were unrepresentative from a marketing perspective. So I feel really proud about that. We've also modernized the Chartered Marketer designation and more than doubled participation, reinforcing it as the gold standard for marketing leadership in Canada. And I'm super proud of CMAs growing national voice. You and the team have just done a wonderful job, whether it's privacy, competition, digital policy, the governments at all levels, whether it's federal or provincial, are listening to the CMA.

00:13:49:16 - 00:14:21:16 Alan They're actually calling us now for our perspectives. This is super fulfilling, and I think it really shows the advocacy role that you've played and the team's played in helping to grow the profession. As I look forward, I feel we have so much momentum on some of the bigger strategies and it really is around, really over the next 3 to 5 years, is taking some of those strategies to the next level and building on that continuity of our focus over the last few years. You know, we've built a sustainable model grounded in insight and collaboration with the members, and that foundation will serve the next CEO extremely well and the profession.

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:37:16 Alan And I really feel like we're just getting started. I'm super excited for you, Alison, to be retiring this year. However, I'm a little bit disappointed because, you know, we are building such a wonderful thing together. But I guess bringing someone a new with a new lens and a new passion will just help us take it to the whole new level.

00:14:37:16 - 00:14:55:07 Alan And I'd be remiss if I didn't thank my fellow Board members. I am so privileged to work with some of the best Board members that you could wish to have around the table as part of the CMA Board, and I'm super excited that we'll be leaving it in really good hands as we both transition in 2026.

00:14:55:09 - 00:15:15:21 Alison Alan, you're so right. We've got a phenomenal Board. You have led by example in your Chair role and the willingness to take on those big opportunities that can be a little scary at the time, I mean, as we were launching the first year of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, the CMA team was referring to it as we were literally building the plane as we were flying it, and we did it phenomenally well.

00:15:15:21 - 00:15:40:03 Alison But it was really bringing a startup mentality into an established, not for profit association. And so that taught us a lot of skills around agility and everything else as well, and there is so much to be proud of. And the way you ended with the Board, we you're so right, we've got an incredibly talented Board with really big, busy, demanding jobs who are so dedicated to our profession, are such amazing partners to me,

00:15:40:03 - 00:16:02:10 Alison and as the CEO, to the senior leadership team and are really making such a powerful, positive impact on our profession. So huge kudos to you as Chair and to our overall Board as well. So Alan, now let's talk about what excites you the most for 2026. Once again, we're expanding CMA Marketing Week, we're launching new councils and innovation and social content in commerce.

00:16:02:10 - 00:16:18:11 Alison We're continuing to expand our robust AI resources and professional development programs. And then we're also introducing a new CMO forum and the AIM Development program, to name a few. So which of these initiatives do you think will have the biggest impact on advancing our profession this year?

00:16:18:14 - 00:16:38:02 Alan It's really hard to just pick one, because everything we're doing really builds upon the same strength, which is engaged members. That said, I would say the CMA Marketing Week really stands out, maybe it's the top of mind for me. We saw attendance jump 40% last year, and in 2026, we're really thinking about how do we expand that nationally with events in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal?

00:16:38:04 - 00:17:00:15 Alan It truly is becoming a moment for the profession, a place where Canada's top marketers come together to learn, debate and connect. And of course, no marketer can just have one. If I think of a second one, I'd have to say AI is the other one. This isn't optional anymore. Whether you're early in your career or you're a more seasoned senior leader at an organization, AI is changing how marketing works.

00:17:00:17 - 00:17:19:20 Alan The CMA playbooks, the training, the upcoming AI readiness study are all going to help marketers move from experimentation to real execution. And I think that sense of community talking about this as a community amongst the CMA is going to help us learn from each other and pivot, because it's nobody has the answer, but we all know it's going to be an exciting future.

00:17:19:20 - 00:17:39:18 Alan So I think it's going to be a year of a lot of experimentation and applying to really get the benefits of AI. But probably what I'm most excited about is how we're expanding ways for our members to continue to engage in the association. We've got new councils, you've got the AIM, you've got the CMO forums, mentorship opportunities.

00:17:39:20 - 00:18:01:22 Alan There's just more and more opportunities for everyone to not only contribute to the community, but also to get value out of that community. And I think that's what people look for. It's hard to have one thing that is for everyone. And the great news is we're doing all that while keeping it very accessible. I think you came to the Board with a strong commitment that we did not want to increase membership fees, and we want to allow people to get more value.

00:18:02:00 - 00:18:23:03 Alan I think we're going to hopefully continue with that progress to make sure folks get more value. You're having more free events, and you're also giving significant discounts to folks who sign up. That's just signs of momentum that you have that we can afford to do that. So 2026 isn't just about launching more programs, it's about deepening collaborative relationships and really future-- proofing marketing in Canada.

00:18:23:03 - 00:18:45:08 Alison So you're so right. It's really tough to choose just one. But one I would add is I'm super excited to be leading the development of an updated CMA brand alongside our CMO Barry and our member agency, LG2. Since I joined, we've been so focused on evolving our offering, delivering really tangible, meaningful benefits to help future-proof marketers in the marketing profession.

00:18:45:10 - 00:19:05:12 Alison And now it really is time for our brand identity to reflect that transformation. So we shared the new brand with our CMA team in December, and they were absolutely thrilled. I'm excited to unveil it to the Board in the coming weeks, and I'm really looking forward to unveiling it to all of our members in the marketing profession in May at our CMA Marketing Week.

00:19:05:13 - 00:19:09:06 Alan That's fantastic. I look forward to actually seeing it. I haven't seen it yet.

00:19:09:07 - 00:19:22:00 Alison You will see it in the next week or so. So Alan, with your extensive experience at RBC and now as Board Chair, what do you see as the essential capabilities that marketing leaders need to develop in order to stay ahead of the curve?

00:19:22:02 - 00:19:41:19 Alan If I had to narrow it down, I'd say there's two capabilities that really matter now. The first is AI fluency. You don't really need to be a technologist, but you do need to understand how AI is reshaping insight, creativity, and execution. Many marketers are still experimenting when they should be starting to apply. And that's where I think the playbooks that you and the team have put together,

00:19:41:19 - 00:19:57:05 Alan I think you've put together like 32 different AI playbooks that are really designed to help people apply. So I think that's going to be a skill set. And I heard one analogy around, you know, marketers, we're not going to lose our jobs to AI, but you might lose your job to somebody that knows how to apply AI better than you do.

00:19:57:05 - 00:20:13:23 Alan So I feel like we all have to embrace that. We all have to lean into it and go on that journey together, and it's just going to make us much better marketers over the future, and we'll learn where it works well and where it doesn't work well. We also are releasing the second AI readiness study. So marketers will see how they stack up with their level of adoption and what they need to do next.

00:20:13:23 - 00:20:45:12 Alan I think that's a really important resource for folks to get a sense of where they sit on that curve. So of course, every answer has to start with AI. So I've got that one out of the way. Now let's go to the second piece. The second one is really around coalition building. I think one of the biggest wins I see working both at RBC and through the CMA is that when marketing brings together, you know, the various partners around a problem or a shared outcome, whether it's the technology group, the operation groups and other leadership across the organization, that's where the magic happens.

00:20:45:12 - 00:21:06:17 Alan So this concept of coalition building is really important. The most effective marketing leaders today aren't just building great campaigns. They're just great connectors. They align people, ideas and organizations. They're using impact and influence to really drive change and success within their organization. That's also why our councils and our membership program, and the forums you guys have created are so important.

00:21:06:17 - 00:21:22:22 Alan We're not just developing skills, we're strengthening the relations to really drive long term impact. At the end of the day, most of our jobs are around people and the better you can be around getting behind ideas and moving your organization in a direction and not being afraid to fail is just going to make you a better marketer.

00:21:23:04 - 00:21:47:01 Alison Thanks, Alan, and you're so right. Like, the AI playbooks, the fact that it's a weekly resource, it's a quick read. It's evolving as AI is evolving and we're now up to 37. So we're continuing those weekly AI playbooks through 2026. We've now got 37 that are also for someone that's new to it and listening, you can go back and review, pick and choose of the 37 that already exist and know that you've got a weekly resource that will continue to grow.

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:07:23 Alison And then with the AI readiness study, our member organization that's partnered with the CMA on this is Twenty44. And they've offered a wonderful opportunity for our members. They can actually do a personalized AI readiness report for members, and they'll do it for free. It's typically a value of $10,000. So that's another great new benefit that CMA members can take advantage of.

00:22:08:01 - 00:22:27:05 Alison Now, Alan, as you might remember from your first appearance on CMA Connect, I am so lucky to have very senior leaders as my guests each episode, and I always end by asking for one piece of career advice that you would share with our listeners who really are looking to future-proof their own careers and follow in your footsteps.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:46:10 Alan That's always a super tough question, because there's not just one thing that makes a great marketer. And my advice, probably at the simplest form, is you need to invest in things that compound over time. One of them is relationships, is probably the biggest one. Every mentor you learn from, every colleague you support. Those connections pay dividends in ways that you can't always predict.

00:22:46:12 - 00:23:05:18 Alan My own journey with the CMA started as a way to kind of give back, and over time, it became a more meaningful part of my time and and a huge accelerator for my career. It opened me up to this incredible network of folks. No matter what challenge I'm taking on or what problem I might have, is reaching out to that network to get different perspectives, just going to help you make better decisions.

00:23:05:18 - 00:23:30:12 Alan So I think you don't have to be the smartest person in the room, because you have access to so many great people that can help you tackle problems or give you different lenses. You know, the CMA is actually one of those rare volunteer opportunities where you can really get the best of both worlds. You can you can feel good because you're contributing to the profession and you're giving back, and at the same time, you're sharpening your thinking, you're expanding your network, and you're building leadership skills that directly enhance your day job.

00:23:30:14 - 00:23:47:19 Alan And how many volunteer opportunities do you get where you not only give back and feel good about that, but you also enhance your core profession? I've found that the more time and energy you invest and the more you give back, actually, the more return you get on that investment of time. You're exposed to many new perspectives.

00:23:47:19 - 00:24:04:09 Alan You hear about emerging challenges that maybe haven't hit you yet in your own job. And that's because you're working with some of the best marketers, not only in the country, but around the world. And that kind of learning is hard to replicate anywhere else. So I think that, to me is an incredible opportunity. And being a part of a member organization is free to you.

00:24:04:14 - 00:24:21:18 Alan I think the same principle applies to skills. Marketers who are thriving today don't wait to be told to learn about AI or data or customer experience. They have a general curiosity and they really take ownership of that development early and lean into it. And the good news is you don't have to do it alone. That's exactly why the CMA exists.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:42:06 Alan As I mentioned before, join a council, find a mentor, take advantage of an event or a training and, you know, go meet new people that are going to help you be more successful. And I think lastly, I'd say the future belongs to marketers who keep learning, keep building relationships, and keep experimenting. You know, I always see marketing as a lifelong apprenticeship.

00:24:42:06 - 00:25:02:08 Alan And actually the CMA gives you access to the perfect community and platform to really get more out of that apprenticeship. So what you do with it is really up to you. So my advice is keep being curious, keep building relationships, and really lean into that network because I think it's just an invaluable resource and you never know when you're going to need it, but when you need it, it's there to help you.

00:25:02:10 - 00:25:11:01 Alison That's such great advice, Alan, and I love the concept of a lifelong apprenticeship. I also love the CMO of RBC led with compounding interest. Very appropriate.

00:25:11:03 - 00:25:15:17 Alan Exactly. I guess I am a banker now.

00:25:15:19 - 00:25:17:14 Alison It took 21 years.

00:25:17:16 - 00:25:18:15 Alan Exactly.

00:25:18:17 - 00:25:43:07 Alison So, Alan, it has been an absolute privilege working with you as Board Chair during this transformational period. The leadership, your vision, the partnership that you've brought have been instrumental in everything that we've accomplished together. So a huge heartfelt thank you. For our listeners, 2026 is going to be an absolutely incredible year. Whether you've joined our CMA Mentorship Program, you're attending our collection of events and the expanded CMA Marketing Week in May,

00:25:43:07 - 00:26:08:03 Alison contributing to our different councils and committees or benefiting from our professional development offering, you're not just advancing your career, you're really helping shape marketing's future in Canada. And to build on the great advice that Alan shared, it is such a powerful way to expand your network, to constantly be learning and a really fun way to give back and help grow and future-proof marketing as well.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:15:16 Alison So thank you to all of our listeners for being a wonderful part of our CMA community.

00:26:15:18 - 00:26:28:08 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free myCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

What could you accomplish if an entire country was cheering for you? Building on Team Canada's 27-medal Paris success, Alison Simpson, President and CEO of the Canadian Marketing Association, speaks with Jacqueline Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. This episode celebrates Team Canada athletes stories of resilience, perseverance, and excellence on the road to Milano Cortina 2026, and the importance of Marketing Partnership support on that journey.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:20 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:46:16 Alison Canada is definitely having a sporty moment. From the Blue Jays extraordinary World Series run and women's rugby reaching the World Cup, to the Four Nations Cup victory and historic Olympic performances in Paris, Canadian athletes are capturing hearts and inspiring national pride like never before. There's truly no better time for this momentum as we head into the Milano Cortina Winter Olympics.

00:00:46:18 - 00:01:25:14 Alison For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome back Jacquie Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. Since joining the COC in 2019, Jacquie has transformed Canada's engagement with the Olympic Movement, including earning recognition as the Canadian Marketing Association's Marketer of the year in 2024 for her exceptional work during the Paris Olympics. Jacquie's leadership during Paris 2024 set new standards for Olympic marketing success, with the Brave is Unbeatable campaign significantly increasing positive feelings towards Team Canada.

00:01:25:14 - 00:01:51:20 Alison Under her guidance, Canada Olympic House opened to the public for the first time during a Summer Olympics, attracting 17,000 visitors in Paris, while Team Canada Fan Fest events back home drew 50,000 visitors across the country. With over 25 years of experience, including RBC, where Jacquie helped drive marketing strategy for the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, and Scotiabank, where she secured the 800 million naming rights deal for Scotiabank Arena,

00:01:52:01 - 00:02:15:19 Alison Jacquie brings exceptional expertise in sports marketing. As Canada approaches the Milano Cortina 2026 Winter Olympics with such strong momentum, amazing marketing partners and a nation ready and keen to rally behind our athletes, there's never been a more exciting time to be part of Team Canada. Welcome, Jacquie. It is an absolute pleasure to have you back to CMA Connect leading up to the Olympics.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:20:10 Jacquie Thank you, Alison, and thanks for the opportunity to join you here today. And really a great pleasure to be back.

00:02:20:16 - 00:02:36:14 Alison So I'd love to start by looking back at Paris. The 2024 Olympics really did set new benchmarks across the board, from medal count to sponsorships and to national engagement. So what were the key learnings from Paris that have shaped your approach for Milano Cortina 2026?

00:02:36:20 - 00:03:00:13 Jacquie Well, thanks for asking, Alison. Paris was, it was incredible. It was, the first normal games since we returned from Covid, because we had the two Covid games, Tokyo and Beijing. So a lot of expectations were high for Paris, for everyone, for fans, families, athletes, marketing partners or donors. And the games literally delivered across all expectations in the entire spectrum.

00:03:00:15 - 00:03:25:10 Jacquie Team Canada won 27 medals in Paris. It's the second best result for Team Canada ever at a Summer games. Like eight golds, six silver, 11 bronze and three Olympic records. So we're super proud of the team. They really, really showed up well. And on top of that, over 70% of Canadians tuned in and they engaged with Team Canada, whether it be through our social channels, through CBC or Radio-Canada in Quebec.

00:03:25:12 - 00:03:50:03 Jacquie So the games in Paris, they really raised the bar in many meaningful ways, and so many lessons that are directly shaping how we're approaching Milano Cortina now, in 2026. So the first thing it did really reinforced our belief that nothing really brings people together quite like sport. Olympics are an incredible, unifying platform that really allows us all to put our differences aside.

00:03:50:05 - 00:04:21:12 Jacquie Secondly, it just reminded us the power of athlete for storytelling. So fans engaged most deeply when they could see the people behind the podiums. They could see their journeys, their resilience. The community roots through moments of humanity, the whole experience leading up to and including the games. So we'll continue to prioritize these athlete narratives, being really, really authentic in the storytelling from their voice, and keep Canadians connected with these athletes and learning about Team Canada athletes well before the opening ceremony.

00:04:21:12 - 00:04:45:14 Jacquie So when they arrive at the games, Canadians are really well poised to really understand the journey and know our athletes. And then our Brave is Unbeatable, our marketing campaign was a big success. We built a lot of equity in this platform through Paris and so working with The Hive, we decided to use it again, basically as a springboard to drive engagement with Canadians heading in now to the Cortina games.

00:04:45:16 - 00:05:07:10 Jacquie The platform, as you'll recall, really leans into the idea of Canadians seeing themselves in the athletes. These athletes are competing. They're on the global stage representing Canada, but they're still human. They have our similar struggles, they go through all sorts of things in their journey, and all of that can lend itself both as inspiration for all of us, and connection so that we feel connected to the athletes.

00:05:07:10 - 00:05:41:04 Jacquie So creatively, we've expanded this iteration of storytelling across far more athletes, representing the real vast diversity of Team Canada athletes from across Canada, sharing their stories, of course, strategically across different placements and channels and in different ways. So that's definitely something that was a big success and we're building on. Another is that Paris really demonstrated that what it looks like when marketing partnerships are truly integrated. Not just visible. They become part of the fan experience, part of the Canadian experience with these athletes and part of the athlete support system.

00:05:41:06 - 00:06:16:10 Jacquie So for Milano now, we've built collaborative, values-aligned marketing partnerships that contribute directly to performance, athlete well-being, fan engagement, rather than simply sponsorship presence. So, I mean, we've known this for years, but it really came together well for Paris, and wait until you see the marketing partner campaigns for Milano Cortina. And then finally, Paris really showed us that major games like the Olympic Games can be platforms for purpose, from sustainability to inclusion to national pride.

00:06:16:12 - 00:06:29:22 Jacquie That lands really guides how we tell our story, how we support our athletes, how partners activate, and all of this helps bring Canadians together, and so we really look forward to all of that coming together in a few short weeks as we head into Milano Cortina.

00:06:30:00 - 00:07:06:00 Alison That's outstanding, Jacquie, thanks so much. I love that you're prioritizing the athlete content and bringing to life their whole selves. It's so inspiring to see the exceptional athletic conditioning and expertise that they bring, but it can sometimes be hard for us mere mortals to relate to. So understanding some of the real life challenges that they're facing, and seeing their 360-view of their lives helps us dream even more about how we can be inspired by them, both athletically and just from sheer perseverance and grit and determination.

00:07:06:00 - 00:07:27:22 Alison So I love that. And the marketing partnerships, I'm looking forward to drilling into that a little bit more. You've built an impressive roster of 39 marketing partners for Milano Cortina, so I'd love you to share how some of your longest standing partners, like RBC, are activating differently this time, and what new partners are bringing to the table that hasn't existed before.

00:07:28:00 - 00:07:51:06 Jacquie Thank you for the question. You could well imagine we're very proud of the 39 marketing partners who are helping power Team Canada toward Milano Cortina. What's exciting is both how long-standing partners and new partners are evolving, what partnership really means, as I referenced earlier. You know, essentially our marketing partners will look at their partnership with us as a way to do a few things.

00:07:51:07 - 00:08:18:09 Jacquie One, they want to support Team Canada directly. They want to celebrate the athletes. They want to tell the athletes stories. They want to engage Canadians. They want engage fans from coast to coast to coast. And really importantly, just as importantly, they really want to help leave a legacy, a lasting legacy of inspiration for the next generation. And I think those four components really drive a lot of what our marketing partners are up to in their campaigns leading up to Milano Cortina.

00:08:18:11 - 00:08:41:15 Jacquie I think you know this, but I'll just remind you that the Canadian Olympic Committee is a not for profit organization. And I mention that because we're almost exclusively privately funded by our marketing partners. So Team Canada quite literally could not get to the Games without our marketing partners. They're literally the engine behind Team Canada. This investment is truly a solid return on their dollars

00:08:41:15 - 00:09:11:12 Jacquie right back into the sports system supporting Olympic athletes' journey. So from its inception, all the way through to the podium. So lots of things around what they're doing is supporting the broader sport system, but importantly, they're looking for a return on their investment. And it's more than marketing. It's about an investment in the athlete journey. And in addition to that, working partners by virtue of being with us, they have access to the largest addressable audience for any sport property in Canada, where 70% of Canadians are engaging, they're watching or sharing.

00:09:11:13 - 00:09:35:12 Jacquie And from a marketing perspective, as you can well agree, that's an incredibly efficient marketing platform. And so that further demonstrates the efficiency of their investment. So I think our commercial momentum over the last few months highlights this, that over the last little while, we've signed ten new marketing partners. Like that's in this year. And it's a testament to the investment and the power of Team Canada as a marketing platform.

00:09:35:14 - 00:09:59:07 Jacquie We've never, ever signed so many sponsors, that many marketing partners in that period of time. And so the ten new ones, you likely saw we announced Tim Hortons as a new marketing partner. Really excited about that. We also launched Intact, Homewood Health, Nulo Pet Food, GoodLife, Maple Leaf Foods, Hillberg & Berk, The GIST, CALA. And there's one more I can't tell you about yet.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:24:00 Jacquie So we're really, really excited about all of these new marketing partners joining us and really rallying Canadians behind Team Canada. And, you know, I continue to think we seriously have the best marketing jobs in this country at the Canadian Olympic Committee because we support the strategies and campaigns of 39 brands. Thirty nine top brands. You know, some of our longstanding partners RBC, Bell, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Petro Canada, Air Canada, like the list is long.

00:10:24:00 - 00:10:46:11 Jacquie So the job truly is quite a privilege. And so this year, we're seeing most of the majority of the partners all undertaking very large, fully integrated, marketing campaigns. Many have also partnered with CBC, which is important because that's the platform that tells the story through broadcast, and so they're really leveraging the broadcast to tell their stories.

00:10:46:13 - 00:11:07:05 Jacquie And, of note, and this is a really important point that the majority of these partners have signed athlete agreements. So there are athletes that are supported by virtue of their marketing campaigns. And that's over 90 individual partnerships with Canadian Olympians. And that's an incredible number to highlight the stories that we were talking about earlier in their campaigns.

00:11:07:05 - 00:11:32:16 Jacquie So excited about all of that. You know, there's lots to talk about and lots of partners that we could go on about their marketing campaigns. I can highlight a few. Firstly, I mentioned Lululemon. Lululemon is the official outfitter of Team Canada. They are also participating in the CBC broadcast. This is their third Olympic Games as Team Canada outfitter. Athletes are also a focal point of their campaign.

00:11:32:18 - 00:12:07:00 Jacquie They have many athlete partnerships, including Sidney Crosby. And we revealed the athlete kit that I'm wearing today, on November 18th. And they've had a series of retail drops ever since and really building momentum toward the opening ceremony, which will be important. Then, of course, Tim Hortons announced last week, they are also participating in the CBC broadcast, and they have lots of athlete partnerships, and also lots of fan engagement ideas, whether it's collectible Team Canada co-branded cups, there's trading cards, there's a contest to win a trip to Milano Cortina.

00:12:07:00 - 00:12:28:10 Jacquie The list is long. So really excited about partnering with them. They're going to partner with us at Team Canada Fan Fest. You know, and another point I would make is that I'm talking a lot about marketing campaigns here. But in addition to the campaigns, there are a number of marketing partners who are doing like real community-based initiatives, driving important positive change in the sport system.

00:12:28:15 - 00:12:57:04 Jacquie So two notable examples would be, we have a program called Bell Starting Line. So Bell initiated this. It's a program designed to get newcomer Canadian youth engaged in sport. So we're out there in the community really giving newcomers an opportunity where they didn't have access to sport, all because Bell has started to invest in this area. Equally, RBC has the RBC Training Ground program. Now it's in its 10th year, and that's a talent identification program that really looks for the next Olympian.

00:12:57:04 - 00:13:16:18 Jacquie And now what they've done is taken their financial resources to cast a much wider net so that there's more diverse access to the program, which just creates a better pipeline and supports a better Team Canada. So really, really proud of all of these programs. I mean, there's Canadian Tire, again, the list goes on and on, Sobeys, but we're proud of the partnerships

00:13:16:18 - 00:13:20:06 Jacquie and we frankly could not do any of this without them.

00:13:20:08 - 00:13:38:08 Alison Those are such powerful examples, and the reminder that you're not for profit is a really important one. So when we look at the 39 marketing partners that you have, to your point, Canada wouldn't have an Olympic team without them. It's great for their brands, it's great for their business. But it is so important and powerful for our country and our athletes as well.

00:13:38:08 - 00:13:58:18 Alison So huge congratulations for landing ten new partners in such a short period of time as well. It's phenomenal growth. Now, you mentioned a bit earlier that you've brought back the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, and I'd love you to share a little bit more about the success of that, and also what else you're doing to market the Olympics to Canadians.

00:13:58:19 - 00:14:21:18 Jacquie Yes. So we're again, we're pleased to bring Brave is Unbeatable back. We do this in partnership with The Hive and CBC and Radio-Canada. So with Brave is Unbeatable, we're not just marketing the games where we see our position is really connecting Canadians to the overall power of sport. It's about inspiration. So the campaign really focuses on the idea that bravery isn't just about standing on the podium, it's about the everyday courage

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:48:17 Jacquie it takes to train, to persevere, to represent your country and kind of put everything on the line. So that spirit really resonates deeply with Canadians, reflects the values that we're proud to stand behind here at Team Canada. So we really love the Brave is Unbeatable portrays Canada as this resilient, unflappable nation and aims to build energy, build excitement as Canadians across the country really rally together to support Team Canada coming up in Milano Cortina.

00:14:48:17 - 00:15:10:07 Jacquie And frankly, what a moment to be doing this. So we're really, really excited about the whole Canadian pride that's built right into it. So from a marketing perspective, we're really doing three things. First, we're telling athlete stories, as I said, in a more immersive way, more emotional across digital, broadcast, social, community, so Canadians can see themselves in the journey, not just the results.

00:15:10:12 - 00:15:36:05 Jacquie And then second, we're ensuring that Canadians can participate in the Olympic movement. So whether that be through Team Canada fan festivals, partner activations, grass root community engagement, digital experiences, it's all about bringing people closer to the Team Canada family, and we're creating more touch points for Canadians to feel part of something national and what we know to be true, unifying. So, you know, we launched our campaign together with the CBC last fall.

00:15:36:05 - 00:16:00:23 Jacquie We launched it at 100 days out from Milan, we need to mark that point in time. And it's a 360 campaign. It's deliberately timed, it integrated to create the greatest impact heading into the Games. Three months before the games is typically when it's a good time to remind Canadians of the journey of Team Canada, and our goal is to build national momentum, generate excitement, energy, and essentially, this is a really important part,

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:22:08 Jacquie set the stage for then the incredible marketing campaigns that follow from our 39 marketing partners. So we really feel it's our job to remind Canadians and raise awareness for the Games are coming and look out for Team Canada. And then, so we do the the job of really setting the stage and then our marketing partners layer in with all the stories that they tell and all of their campaigns.

00:16:22:10 - 00:16:51:06 Jacquie So that's essentially what we're doing. I did actually want to also point out that we have overall brand marketing initiatives with the Canadian Olympic Committee. We're also undertaking really important efforts to raise awareness for our foundation. That's the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and we're encouraging Canadians to join us and support these incredible athletes through these campaigns. And so what we're essentially doing is we run the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, which as it gets closer to the Games, we'll add

00:16:51:06 - 00:17:15:16 Jacquie Donate Now to join Team Canada message. And then also Maple Leaf Foods will be doing a campaign with us. It's called Double Your Impact and it's all about they're doing a matching donation campaign to encourage Canadians to make a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and they will match as well. So really excited about those two opportunities to continue to raise awareness for the foundation, and really encourage Canadians to come along with us.

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:40:22 Jacquie So I think that's essentially what we're doing. And then, you know, as I mentioned, we're working closely with our 39 marketing partners because they extend the campaign's reach and meaning. So ultimately, our campaign is about inspiring the country, strengthening Canadians and their connection with Team Canada and building excitement and pride as we head into Milano Cortina. So with that, I would just say be sure to follow us on all of our socials.

00:17:40:22 - 00:17:55:01 Jacquie Download the Team Canada app, check out the athletes' stories on our website, listen and follow our podcast. And really do your best to engage with Team Canada. Get to know them before the games and then jump in and be all in during the games.

00:17:55:03 - 00:18:15:12 Alison Thank thanks so much, Jacquie. It's great to see that all of the Canadians like me, who won't have the opportunity to experience the Olympics in person, will have so many great experiences through your organization, but also through your all your partner organizations to engage and really come together as a country in celebration of our athletes. So, excited to hear how we can do that.

00:18:15:14 - 00:18:27:03 Alison So you also mentioned that Canada is at the intersection of passion and purpose with a truly impressive percentage of Canadians that are really engaging in the Olympic movement. So what do you think has led to the strong movement?

00:18:27:05 - 00:18:48:15 Jacquie Canada is absolutely having a moment. Canadian pride is at an all-time high, there's no question. And in the face of crisis, Canadians have really rallied, particularly in and through sport. So a new national pride is emerging. Canadians care very deeply about sport. It's not just for the medals but for what it represents. It represents resilience and excellence and community,

00:18:48:19 - 00:19:13:22 Jacquie and many of the things I've spoken about already. And the belief that when our athletes excel, the country rises with them. So over the past several years, we've also experienced incredible moments across multiple sports and generations of athletes. And those wins, they reminded Canadians what it feels like to rally together, sheer national pride, and see ourselves reflected on the world stage in a really positive and unifying way.

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:34:23 Jacquie And we've been, as I've mentioned, very, very intentional about telling those stories, focusing on the athlete journey to values, authenticity, not just the results. And this is building a deeper connection. So Canadians don't just watch Team Canada, they feel invested in it. So in terms of directly answering your question, how we're capitalizing, we're really doing that in three ways.

00:19:35:01 - 00:19:57:11 Jacquie Absolutely, firstly, making sure that we do our very best to make the Olympic experience more accessible, whether that's through digital storytelling, community outreach, and content that brings Canadians closer to the athletes. Secondly, we're partnering with organizations across Canada to extend that pride into meaningful engagement, wellness, youth development, national celebrations, anything that unites people from coast to coast to coast.

00:19:57:15 - 00:20:29:19 Jacquie And third, we've always been a purpose-led organization. That's absolutely our DNA. So we're ensuring that all of our activities bring this to life. Aligning the Olympic movement with purpose. So Canadians respond strongly when they see sport driving positive impact, inclusion and inspiration, which comes from watching Team Canada excel on the world stage. So I think this combination of, momentum, very positive momentum, meaningful storytelling, very purposeful engagement is fuelling such strong national connection.

00:20:29:21 - 00:20:34:12 Jacquie And it's what absolutely will help carry that energy proudly into Milano Cortina.

00:20:34:14 - 00:20:43:12 Alison So the Winter Olympics have always held special significance for Canadians. So with days to go before Milano Cortina begins, who are the Canadian athletes to watch?

00:20:43:14 - 00:21:13:01 Jacquie That's a tough question. They're all great! These Games are going to be incredible. So there's a lot of pre-work that's underway. And a reminder for everybody the dates. So the Games themselves are February 6th to the 22nd. There'll be 116 medal events across 16 sport disciplines, and 93 countries are participating. The events are spread across four different zones, from the city to the mountains, all with the goal of sustainability and not erecting brand new facilities that don't have a future purpose.

00:21:13:01 - 00:21:32:21 Jacquie For Team Canada, we're going to have 206 or 207 athletes also, still TBD as athletes continue to qualify their spots actually, but in and around that number. And then a ton of support staff and Mission Team we call them, that's like myself, the staff that goes over to support. And also these will be the most gender-balanced edition in history of the Olympic Winter games.

00:21:32:23 - 00:21:49:09 Jacquie So really excited to see the progress there. And I think I mentioned this before, but this is a return to open games, as we call them, that there are no Covid restrictions. So this is really important since on the winter side, so of course Paris was the first on the summer side, but this is the first on the winter side.

00:21:49:09 - 00:22:14:22 Jacquie So we're imagining packed venues, the roar of the crowd, family and friends will finally be on hand to support after missing out on Beijing. You know, to help drive the excitement, NHLers are coming for the first time since Sochi in 2014. PWHLers are coming for the first time. Currently, snow and ice sports across the gamut are doing really, really well on the World Cup circuit, which tends to be the qualifications on the way to the Games.

00:22:15:00 - 00:22:40:07 Jacquie Truly, they're poised to do their very best. We're excelling in so many sports right now, whether it be Mikael Kingsbury, a freestyle skier, just won his 100th World Cup, hundredth, 100th gold medal and a World Cup. So we're really excited about people like Mik Kingsbury. Again, like the PWHL women, we've got a number of short track and long track speed skaters, William Dandjinou out of Quebec is really poised to do very well on short track.

00:22:40:09 - 00:23:04:19 Jacquie But Marion Thenault, also a freestyle skier who does aerials, also poised to do well. The list is long and really exciting to talk about them. Piper Gilles and Paul Poirier, they are ice dance champions. Cynthia Appiah, a bobsleigh powerhouse and, Reece Howden, who's a ski cross athlete. So we're going to really see some strengths across all of these sports.

00:23:04:19 - 00:23:24:12 Jacquie So on the ice, on the snow, really look out for what I hope is a wonderful performance. So I do highly suggest you follow them on socials, certainly engage with them on our channels and hear all about their journeys. We keep saying it, and it becomes more true every day. The Olympic Games really do bring people together like nothing else can. And we think the world needs these Games.

00:23:24:18 - 00:23:42:13 Jacquie Canada needs them. Our country once again is going to come together and support the Olympic movement and really be inspired by the power of sport and inspire the next generation. So really, the power of these Games is really immeasurable. And, I'm really, really excited that the athletes now have their time to shine.

00:23:42:15 - 00:24:04:04 Alison So I couldn't agree more. The time is right for Canada and the world to come together. So the timing for the Olympics as a great unifier is wonderful to say the least. Now I want to go a little bit deeper on all of the ways that Canadians across the country can engage with the Olympics, cheer on all the super-talented athletes that we are sending to the Games.

00:24:04:04 - 00:24:10:23 Alison So we talked about Fan Fest, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that for our listeners and also some of the other activations, other plans.

00:24:11:01 - 00:24:26:13 Jacquie Yeah, for sure. I'd love to talk about, I mean, the reality is that most Canadians won't be in Italy. I do have that good fortune, but most won't be. But there are loads of opportunities to engage with the Olympic Movement and Milano Cortina, because our goal is to make sure that Canadians feel connected to the Olympic experience.

00:24:26:13 - 00:24:47:11 Jacquie So one of our core priorities for Milano Cortina is ensuring that Canadians feel a part of Team Canada wherever they are in the country. So firstly, we're bringing the Games to communities across Canada through our Team Canada Fan Fest, which I'll tell you about a little bit more in a minute, and fan engagement experiences. Team Canada Fan Fest is a free family festival,

00:24:47:15 - 00:25:12:19 Jacquie it's a fantastic opportunity for Canadians to come together in the community, cheer together, celebrate what I'm sure will be iconic moments as we will be running the broadcast live at these events. Try their hand at a few winter sports, including skating, and feel that sense of national unity right there, real time. So it's really where the country will come together to experience the games back here in Canada as one team.

00:25:12:21 - 00:25:36:18 Jacquie So we'll be in Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal all in February and really excited to, you know, have this opportunity to bring the community together, kid-friendly activities, hands-on experience, Olympic athletes and it really will be a wonderful, wonderful opportunity in these communities. And then with that, our marketing partners are coming along with us.

00:25:36:18 - 00:26:20:00 Jacquie So at Team Canada Fan Fest, you'll see, all sorts of activations from Bell Canada, Canadian Tire, Petro Canada, Tim Hortons, GoodLife, Nulo, Maple Leaf Foods, Hillberg & Berk, Pilliterri Estate Wines, Access Storage and Labatt. They'll all be present there. So really helping bring these activations to life. And then I would say further, as I mentioned before, our marketing partners across the country, they're helping extend that excitement to everyday life through their community activations, all sorts of retail, in-store, in-restaurant celebrations, programming for young people and kids, fan contests, win a trip to the Games, all sorts of engagements on social and digital, and loads of opportunity for Canadians to share in the pride

00:26:20:00 - 00:26:39:15 Jacquie and joy of cheering for Team Canada. And then, of course, a big call out to our really important partners on CBC. So, best place to watch the Games is on CBC or Radio-Canada. And then follow along with some of our other marketing partners, which includes The Globe and Mail and The GIST. So there are there will be many opportunities.

00:26:39:15 - 00:26:57:16 Jacquie I think if you're following us on social, that's where you can find out more about this. So even if Canadians aren't in Italy, they'll still be deeply part of Milano Cortina and Team Canada, that we connect emotionally, digitally in their communities through Team Canada FanFest, ideally united in support of, our team to cheer them on.

00:26:57:18 - 00:27:20:13 Alison And we have a lot to cheer and look forward to with Milano Cortina. And when we look beyond the Olympics, it's a big, big year and big time for sport in Canada. We've got FIFA coming to Canada this year, we've got the LA Olympics coming in 2028. So how are all of these significant sporting events helping build towards something bigger for Canadian sport and national engagement?

00:27:20:15 - 00:27:41:20 Jacquie Well, that's a great question, and I think we're going to see this Canadian pride continue to grow and build. 2026 is poised really to be a landmark year, I think, for Canadian sport. It sort of, is so integral to who we are as Canadians and unites us more than ever in the face of unprecedented challenges. I mean, we were all captivated by the Blue Jays' thrilling World Series run.

00:27:41:20 - 00:28:08:19 Jacquie And soon we'll be glued to our TVs or mobile devices for Milano Cortina, and then shortly following after that we'll be excited about FIFA World Cup coming to Canada. So really an incredible year, and it will be a great opportunity to see that the Canadian athletes are actually defying all odds. They're shining on the world stage, despite a sports system that actually is struggling financially, as much as again, the Canadian Olympic Committee I mentioned is a privately-funded organization.

00:28:08:21 - 00:28:33:07 Jacquie So with a national sport organization, so an example of a national sport organization would be anything from Freestyle Skiing to Alpine Skiing to Hockey Canada. The list is long. Summer would be, you know, Tennis Canada as an example. So all of the individual national sport organizations, they're facing a dramatic funding cut, and they're not being supported in a way that they had historically been supported from the Federal Government.

00:28:33:07 - 00:28:51:10 Jacquie So it's the challenge of that is it's making sport less accessible for many young athletes, from grassroots all the way to high performance. And and when you see these incredible events and these athletes perform on the world stage, it absolutely inspires that next generation. And we just really we need to make sure that we have access for the next generation,

00:28:51:10 - 00:29:13:21 Jacquie so they can they can really, take that inspiration and turn that into an ability to to experience all those positive experiences that you and I have had in sport, and make it accessible. It's a big year. It'll be a big year for, for sport in Canada. And hopefully there's a way to parlay that into partnering with the federal government to really modernize Canada's sport system.

00:29:13:21 - 00:29:34:02 Jacquie So there's a there's an opportunity here. And as the COC, we're going to continue to play a leadership role in advocating for this, advocating for safe and inclusive sport for all Canadians. And we will continue to be a strong business as I've talked about throughout this podcast. But the broader sport system is where we need some help.

00:29:34:04 - 00:29:57:12 Jacquie And then lastly, I have to point out, I know if you asked me about 2026, but I'm going to talk about 2028 and that's the LA Olympic Games. So Los Angeles will be hosting the Olympic Summer games in 2028. And believe it or not, I have ten files on my desk where we're already working on that, so it will be such an exciting Summer Games, in essence, kind of like a North American Games.

00:29:57:12 - 00:30:18:15 Jacquie It's not quite like they're here in Canada, but they're just down south. And we've already been there a few times to start the planning. And I can tell you LA is really excited to welcome us with open arms and bring in that competitive spirit with Team Canada. So look out for some very cool stuff on the journey to LA 2028.

00:30:18:17 - 00:30:43:23 Alison Thanks, Jacquie. I hadn't appreciated how a lot of the sporting associations are struggling with financing, and it makes two programs we talked about earlier with RBC and Bell, where they're really ensuring that Canadian emerging athletes across the country, despite their financial means, have a chance to get the sporting opportunities and to get the nurturing and coaching they need to help represent Canada on the world stage.

00:30:44:00 - 00:31:05:16 Alison And even if they don't get that far, as you said, sport has played such a pivotal role in my life, in your life and the professional benefits you get from it, the personal benefits, the skills it teaches you is so important for every Canadian at every age, especially the next generation. So thank you to your partners and thank you to the COC for really helping enable that.

00:31:05:18 - 00:31:19:15 Alison As you know, I end each episode by asking my guests to share a piece of career advice that you would offer to listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps and ultimately get into those CMO and senior leadership roles. So I would love to hear your parting advice.

00:31:19:17 - 00:31:44:07 Jacquie You know, I struggle with this question because I actually think the answer is kind of simple. It really is be kind, be curious and show up and work hard. I really believe that if you can find a way to do that, being kind obviously is important. Just in day to day from a relationship-building perspective. Makes people want to work with you. Curiosity is so important

00:31:44:07 - 00:32:05:17 Jacquie to learn. We need to be relentless learners. Your learning journey is long. Your career is long. It's a long road, so be curious and learn and work hard because that will differentiate you. And I think whether it's being kind, being curious and working hard, don't worry, the right people are always watching, so you don't have to be in a rush.

00:32:05:20 - 00:32:29:22 Jacquie You don't have to worry about what your business card says. Just make sure that you enjoy what you're doing. Follow that mantra and the right people will see you, they'll find you, they'll mentor you, they'll promote you, they'll engage you, and they'll bring you in. And the opportunities will come, I promise. So I really think it's that simple. And, if you stick to that, I think the future is very bright, particularly for marketing.

00:32:30:00 - 00:32:48:12 Alison I think that is exceptional advice. And sometimes, often the simplest advice is the most powerful. It can also be tough to follow. So I absolutely echo your advice and encourage everyone listening to take that away and action it. And you're absolutely right. The right people will notice you. Opportunities will open up for sure. So Jacquie, thanks for a great conversation.

00:32:48:12 - 00:32:55:23 Alison Absolutely looking forward to cheering on Team Canada in the coming weeks. And I hope you have a wonderful time being on site.

00:32:56:00 - 00:33:05:21 Jacquie Thank you, Alison, and thank you for inviting me on. Thank you for your leadership in marketing and we're really looking forward to cheering on Team Canada.

00:33:05:23 - 00:33:18:13 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Interested in boosting your sales by 24%? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Jenna Landi, Director of Global Brand Research at Pinterest, to explore how positive environments drive measurable business results, with advertising showing 94% more impact on purchase intent. Jenna reveals why brands don't have to choose between positivity and performance. She introduces 'ambient chaos' as the driver of consumer shifts, shares Pinterest's 88% trend-forecasting accuracy, and reveals that Canadian Gen Z over-indexes certain trends at 5.5 times the global rate. Plus insights on AI, visual search, and building safer digital spaces, with actionable strategies for authentic brand connections.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:17 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:19 - 00:00:53:01 Alison When we're surrounded by an increasingly divisive and negative cultural landscape, finding authentic positivity can actually feel revolutionary. And it turns out it's can also be incredibly good for business, as marketers are grappling with building genuine connections in a digital world. Research from Pinterest proves that positive environments don't just feel better. They deliver measurable business results. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Jenna Landy, the Director of Global Brand Research of Pinterest.

00:00:53:03 - 00:01:34:07 Alison Jenna leads Pinterest's marketing research organization, leveraging the platform's unique Taste Graph technology to really understand how users discover, engage with, and act on inspiration. Her groundbreaking research on positivity and advertising has shown that campaigns infused with positive content can deliver up to 24% increases in sales. Definitely proof that doing good and doing well are not mutually exclusive. With the Master of Science of Behavioural Science from the London School of Economics and extensive experience at Nielsen and Google, where she was a founding member of the Human Truth Team, Jenna brings both academic rigour and practical marketing expertise to understanding consumer behaviour.

00:01:34:09 - 00:01:57:15 Alison At Pinterest, she is on the forefront of identifying shifting consumer behaviours, including what her team calls the ambient chaos of our current world. What a great description, as well as its impact on everything from design preferences to purchase decisions. Her work spans AI integration, visual search, innovation, and the critical mission of building a safer, more inspirational internet. Welcome, Jenna.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:01:05 Alison It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today on CMA connect.

00:02:01:06 - 00:02:08:09 Jenna Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me Alison. I'm so happy to be here and thank you for that really kind intro. This is exciting.

00:02:08:11 - 00:02:19:01 Alison I'm excited as well. So Jenna, I'd love you to start with your journey into marketing and research and really help our listeners understand what drew you to specialize in understanding consumer behaviour?

00:02:19:03 - 00:02:44:10 Jenna Absolutely. I was that annoying kid who never stopped asking questions. And I realized in university that I actually may be able to turn it into a career. So through roles in brand strategy, media buying, digital analytics, and deep global consumer insight, work, I've always been drawn to data and digital data in particular, and just how it offers a really unique window into consumer behaviour.

00:02:44:12 - 00:03:06:01 Jenna I joined Pinterest almost eight years ago now because our data, I believe, is the most unique in the industry. We have signals around both interest and intent. So searches and saves. And so myself and my team, we have this really unique sandbox to explore consumer behaviour from many different angles. And it's always also fun when you can live your work.

00:03:06:05 - 00:03:13:19 Jenna I am a peer myself, and I really appreciate and value the inspiration and creativity that it brings to my life.

00:03:13:21 - 00:03:24:19 Alison Curiosity for me is such an important priority for anyone to succeed in a marketing career. And you've also given hope to all the parents that are listening with those super inquisitive kids at home that it right off.

00:03:24:21 - 00:03:36:00 Jenna Oh, totally. I have two young girls myself, and I definitely am living some karma of kids that are extremely inquisitive. So hang on with them. Maybe it'll pay off later.

00:03:36:02 - 00:03:55:10 Alison And it will definitely pay off. So as a glass half full person myself, I am very intrigued by your research on positivity in advertising, especially into what can be a very divisive cultural landscape. You found that positive environments drive tangible business results. So I'd love you to share some of those findings. And what surprised you most about the research?

00:03:55:12 - 00:04:18:20 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that we were really hoping to find and really relieved and excited to find is that, you know, validating our gut, which is that advertising on brand safe and positive platforms isn't just safer, but it can be profitable. It can be good for business. And what we found is even goes beyond that, which is that users are more engaged with ads when they appear in positive spaces.

00:04:18:21 - 00:04:41:10 Jenna So we partnered with Magna, and their research showed us that ads in positive environments truly do perform better. So we looked at the impact of brand safety on metrics like engagement, trustworthiness, intent, and even results to demonstrate that brands don't really have to choose between positivity and performance. I think you said earlier, you know, too often this feels like a trade off.

00:04:41:10 - 00:05:08:15 Jenna And we were so excited in this research to really validate that that's not the case in these, that positive platforms are 94% more impactful in driving purchase intent. And so we talk a lot about brand safety. We've spoken about brand safety for years, but we hadn't yet put numbers behind the business impact. And so these results show that safe and positive platforms aren't just preferred by users, but they also perform for advertisers.

00:05:08:16 - 00:05:36:14 Jenna So in my simulations, the same creative, same finite budget generated up to 24% more sales when brands incorporated view-ability and positivity into their media buying strategies. So that real alchemy of both view-ability and positivity. And so we understand that advertisers are all seeking a competitive edge in today's marketplace. And we really believe that this research represents a fresh opportunity of where to find it.

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:48:17 Jenna So if I can ask listeners today to consider one thing, it would be really consider and evaluate how the platforms you're partnering with offer that positive space and offer that potential for competitive edge.

00:05:48:19 - 00:06:06:09 Alison That is a very compelling case for why positivity is absolutely the right approach, and clearly it's a great advantage from a Pinterest perspective. I also hope that other platforms are hearing and seeing the data and evolving as well would make the world certainly a better and more open place for sure.

00:06:06:11 - 00:06:15:22 Jenna So I would love that as an outcome of this research, please. Yes, an industry call to action to make the internet altogether a more safe and wellbeing supportive environment.

00:06:16:00 - 00:06:32:14 Alison So Jenny, your team's been studying what you call the ambient chaos, which is a term I absolutely love, and certainly our current world is experiencing that and how consumer behaviour are shifting as a result. Can you explain the concept and share some of the trends that you're seeing emerge from this research?

00:06:32:16 - 00:07:15:10 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. We kicked off this research to really understand the why behind some of the trends that we're calling. And Pinterest predicts this year, which I'm excited to get into in a little bit. But ambient chaos is a term my team coined to describe that constant background noise of uncertainty, divisiveness, and negativity that surrounds us today. And so one of my amazing colleagues talked about it as the emotional weather that we're all living in and an ongoing basis, there's just this constant level of low level stress and fragmentation that has become the backdrop of daily life, and it's really fundamentally changing how consumers behave, what they seek out, how they express themselves and so when

00:07:15:10 - 00:07:41:23 Jenna we mapped that into our trends, what we found is that one of the most fascinating shifts is this movement away from stark minimalism towards bold maximalism. As we detected in our trends this year, as people are seeking out new ways of self-expression and really grounding in their interests and passions. And so, you know, for years we've been told that clean, simple, minimal design was the pinnacle of sophistication.

00:07:41:23 - 00:08:05:15 Jenna But consumers are really now gravitating towards more of that authentic self-expression that represents who they are. And we're seeing this everywhere from home decor that's rich with colour and pattern to fashion choices that really make some bold statements rather than blend in. I think it's beautiful that people are saying, I'm here, I matter, and I'm not going to disappear into the background.

00:08:05:15 - 00:08:19:16 Jenna And so for marketers, the key takeaway is that consumers want to stand out and that they're seeking brands and experiences that help them vocalize and represent their truest selves versus, you know, not not wanting to conform to the sea of sameness.

00:08:19:18 - 00:08:36:13 Alison It's a sunny, beautiful day in Toronto today, but we've just come off like a week of gray, so embracing that maximalism and vibrancy is even more important on those gray days. Now, are there any brands that are early to this consumer insight and really embracing?

00:08:36:15 - 00:09:04:15 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. We've had actually amazing launch partners in L'Oreal and Hellmann's, just to name a few, who are really excited to run with these trends and help bring their products to life. One of the things that I love about these trends is that many of them are cross category, and so it gives a beauty brand like L'Oreal, an opportunity to activate against one of our trends called Gimme Gummy, which is super colourful.

00:09:04:15 - 00:09:34:21 Jenna And yes, it has a beauty application, but it gives L'Oreal a wedge an opportunity for relevance in categories far beyond beauty. Because Gimme Gummy, as a beauty trend, it's a fashion trend. It's a flavour and food and beverage trend. And so what we see at a lot of the unique approach of Pinterest predicts trends is that they are cross category and so it's giving a brand an opportunity to expand outside of sort of their core competency that they they've known and loved for so long.

00:09:34:21 - 00:09:51:18 Jenna And so just want to give huge kudos to those brands who have been launch partners with us and are helping bring that to market and excited to see how how the relationships they're building with these consumers and these new trend product areas continue to evolve.

00:09:51:20 - 00:10:04:16 Alison And you lead Pinterest trend for forecasting and revealing fascinating insights about how trends behave differently on Pinterest compared to other platforms. What do you think makes Pinterest unique for trend identification as well as longevity?

00:10:04:18 - 00:10:28:22 Jenna Yeah, our trend forecasting is different because we're capturing people in their leaned in planning mindset, not their passive scrolling mindset. So it really boils down to the way that people use Pinterest. They use it to plan. And so we get that unique insight into their consumer behaviour, this window into the future. And as a result, we have an 88% accuracy rate over the past six years in predicting trends.

00:10:28:23 - 00:10:52:10 Jenna And so the reason we do that is because the data that is the foundation for Pinterest predicts comes from the over 600 million people that come to Pinterest each month, specifically to search and shop for that next big thing. And so we again have this really highly accurate window into consumer intent through their active curation. Over every month, users make 80 billion queries on Pinterest.

00:10:52:10 - 00:11:20:17 Jenna And over time, we've actually recently crossed the 15 billion boards saved mark. And so when someone saves a pin about Glacier aesthetic or opera themed parties, they're actively curating their future reality and what they wish to see come true. And so our trend analysis goes far beyond search queries. We started our trend practice on search queries, but now we actually use a visual mapping technology made possible through AI to analyze the complete visual picture.

00:11:20:17 - 00:11:49:05 Jenna So the colours, the aesthetics and the styles that people are gravitating towards. So when we see searches for something like Icy Blue up 50% and frosted makeup up 150%, we're not just tracking those keywords. We're actually able to take a really comprehensive approach to identifying the entire aesthetic shift towards cool blue as a trend sophistication. So, you know, trends on Pinterest have staying power because they're rooted in this genuine intent.

00:11:49:07 - 00:12:27:20 Jenna Our current data is showing that trends are now growing 4.4 times faster than they were seven years ago. But on Pinterest, we see them build sustainably rather than spike and disappear. And so it's no surprise to me that on average, Pinterest trends last 20% longer than trends across other platforms. One of the things that we talk about on our team, a lot is differentiating this notion of what is a trend and what is a fad, a fad being something really quick and viral that doesn't give a brand a lot of opportunity to activate against where a trend is a real shift in consumer behaviour that has meaning, roots and longevity.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:30:16 Jenna Giving a brand an opportunity to act.

00:12:30:18 - 00:12:41:15 Alison So congratulations, 88% rate was impressive and you should be very proud of that. Thank you. I'm also intrigued. You talked about the acceleration of trends. What do you think is behind that?

00:12:41:17 - 00:13:09:22 Jenna I mean, there's no denying that short form viral video has been an absolute accelerator. It's put gasoline on the fire. Also, the vision of, you know, Gen Z brings a lot of appetite for aesthetics and more visual experiences into their lives. And so I think they're drawing and taking from a lot of different realms. And so we're seeing as they identify and seek self-expression, they're turning through a lot of different personas that they're trying on for size.

00:13:09:22 - 00:13:38:08 Jenna And so I think the combination of Gen Z being in a state of self-identification and self-discovery, combined with this force of, you know, rise of short form online video where people are consuming content faster and faster, we're just inundated with this information. The challenge for marketers is how do you pass through it? You know, it's challenging supply chains, it's challenging social teams and marketers to think, you know, when and how and where do we play in this space.

00:13:38:12 - 00:14:06:02 Jenna And that's where I'm really proud of. Pinterest predicts offering something a little bit different, where in this moment in time, when there's a lot of fast moving trends, we're of course acknowledging those. Those are those are elements of a lot of our trends. We're doing that one click up to see the larger picture. And how that fad actually fits into something larger, which again, gives a brand a little bit more lead time and opportunity to really flex and participate in consumer culture.

00:14:06:04 - 00:14:10:21 Alison Now I look at the Pinterest predicts every single year and you've just launched 26.

00:14:10:23 - 00:14:12:07 Jenna We did. Yes.

00:14:12:09 - 00:14:21:03 Alison Very excited to hear more about some of the exclusive insights, particularly around Canadian consumer trends and where we might be different than what you're seeing globally.

00:14:21:05 - 00:14:42:09 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. One of my favourite parts of getting to work on projects is being able to explore the global nature of our trends, and when and where trends are spiking or migrating in a different market. So when we double click into Canada specifically, the data tells us that Canadian consumers, especially the younger ones, are gravitating towards trends that feel really authentic to their values.

00:14:42:14 - 00:15:11:18 Jenna Craftsmanship, bold self-expression, and connection to nature. One of my favourites, the biggest story in Canada, is laced up, so we're seeing it perform at 3.7 times the global rate overall. So that's pretty massive increase. And when we say laced up we're talking about lace collars. Bomber jackets, lace inspired nails, softly stitched bandanas, something about this handcrafted, delicate esthetic that seems to really be striking a chord, especially with younger Canadians.

00:15:11:18 - 00:15:33:02 Jenna And then there's Wilder Kind, which is that delicate, edible aesthetic. So think of the fun freckles and butterfly wing nail art. It's performing really strongly across Canada again, especially with Gen Z. But when you think about Canada's real, you know, historical relationship with nature and wildlife, it just makes total sense that this particular trend would really resonate in Canada.

00:15:33:02 - 00:16:00:17 Jenna We are seeing some interesting generational differences in our Canadian trends. So cabbage clash for example, is extremely popular for every segment in Canada except for Gen Z. So you got older Canadians really embracing this whole cabbage as a kitchen MVP trend, the blistered cabbage steaks and kimchi cocktails, while Gen Z is like, nope, not. But for us instead, they're saying that they're going to make calamari their thing instead.

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:11:22 Jenna And that's this really, this whole maximalist 80s luxury thing. Chunky belts, the baggy suits with those sculpted shoulders, all that bold gold jewelry. Gen Z Canadians are really here for it.

00:16:12:00 - 00:16:19:08 Alison So, Jenna, I'd love you to share how Canadian behaviours and preferences differ from what you're seeing, particularly compared to the US.

00:16:19:10 - 00:16:45:07 Jenna Absolutely. Let me layer our Canadian data with home and food categories in particular, some really distinct Canadian patterns emerge, especially when we contrast them against the US. So Canadian Gen-Z is embracing that vintage rebellion. So vintage styles are up 9% mid-century and French country seeing around 20% growth. And they're doing this in a really distinctly Canadian way that feels more grounded than other markets are.

00:16:45:11 - 00:17:18:16 Jenna Again, rejecting that minimalism. But without going to the extremes that you see sometimes in the US market, the food data really tells an interesting story. So Canadian pinners are 56% more likely to want responsibly sourced ingredients and 31% more likely to demand clear product labeling, which is significantly higher than global averages. So the trending category is in searches like Bountiful Bowls and protein powder swaps really reflect a unique and practical health conscious approach that feels very Canadian.

00:17:18:16 - 00:17:39:09 Jenna Another thing that really sets Canadians apart is intentionality. So in food health, as 39% of searches lead to outbound clicks, which is actually twice as high as other categories. And so Canadians are clearly planning to act. They're not just here to brainstorm. They're bringing those dreams to life, which is amazing. This actually shows up in our broader predicts trends, too.

00:17:39:09 - 00:18:10:05 Jenna So when Canadian Gen Z overindex is laced up. So the market level overindex is at 3.7 times. When we double click into Gen Z, they're actually indulging in laced up at 5.5 times the global rates. They're not just following the trends, they're really curating them to fit their values around craftsmanship and authentic self-expression. And so we really see this combination of bold choices grounded in more practical values, that makes Canadian consumer behaviour really distinctive.

00:18:10:07 - 00:18:27:16 Alison That's super helpful, Jen, I really appreciate you. And drilling down into the unique Canadian insights and behaviours, for sure. Now, AI is clearly transforming every aspect of both marketing and research, so I'd love to hear how you're integrating AI into both your research methodologies and the Pinterest product experience.

00:18:27:18 - 00:18:52:13 Jenna Oh, this is my like, day to day living and breathing. As a research leader right now, I am really invested in how are we onboarding an AI driven research tool kit for my team, but that really comes as a culture that set from the top. So AI is core to everything we do a Pinterest, it's why we've effectively become an AI powered shopping assistant to over 600 million people monthly.

00:18:52:15 - 00:19:16:23 Jenna They're making more than 80 billion monthly queries and over time have created that. Those 15 billion boards and all of those service inputs to make our AI smarter for Pinterest, predict specifically, we incorporated AI into our objective benchmarking. We wanted to use that to complement the team's human centered curation, and we find that the balance of the two help makes the trends genuinely resonate.

00:19:16:23 - 00:19:46:09 Jenna And so there are three different phases that go into predicts as a trend spotting process. Our discovery process remains mostly human driven. Our trends emerge from analyzing real Pinterest human behaviour through proprietary machine learning built specifically for our visual intent driven platform. So it's helping generate number of different clusters and approaches for us to mine our data evaluation of the trends that come out of that discovery period is really where we introduced gen AI this year.

00:19:46:09 - 00:20:10:03 Jenna And so we created an objective benchmarking tool against criteria like consumer appeal, advertiser value, buzz pick cultural relevance to be able to understand and model the achievement and success of each of our trends. And then the curation stage is completely human. And so our predicts team makes final calls, drawing on cultural expertise to select trends and craft narratives.

00:20:10:08 - 00:20:17:09 Jenna We really want to make sure that our storytelling stays human because this is a reflection of human behaviour.

00:20:17:14 - 00:20:21:21 Alison That's a great overview. What role does visual search play in the evolution?

00:20:21:23 - 00:20:38:02 Jenna You know, one of the things I love about Pinterest is that we're solving for that. I'll know it when I see it. Problem that all of us face when shopping. So using Pinterest is like shopping with a friend or personal stylist. The person who knows you best. We hear from Gen Z all the time that Pinterest just gets me.

00:20:38:02 - 00:21:08:02 Jenna And so when we give users an opportunity to start with an image instead of words, refined results that match their taste good. Connected to shoppable products using inclusive tools to find inspiration that truly reflects them. It's a win. And so visual search is critical because we shop with our eyes first. This really makes sense. And so on. The Pinterest side includes computer vision, AI and multimodal foundation model ingest images and text, creating a deeper understanding of our Pins content.

00:21:08:02 - 00:21:38:18 Jenna And so this proprietary model is 30% more likely to identify and recommend relevant content compared to leading off the shelf models due to our unique AI first party signal. And again, that signal is being fed by all of those searches and curate board curation that's happening in any given month. And so our visual search technology is helping users discover ideas and products that they weren't even looking for, and allowing them to do it with their eyes, not necessarily their words.

00:21:38:20 - 00:21:54:01 Alison Now, you've spoken about building a better, safer internet that encourages well-being, and I know everyone listening is on board with that. For sure. So as a research leader, how do you balance business objectives with this mission of creating more positive online experiences?

00:21:54:03 - 00:22:17:19 Jenna Well, as I mentioned earlier, like I, I deeply believe that positivity is a competitive advantage and it's Pinterest's competitive advantage to it is a key differentiator for our business. We think it's possible to engineer well-being into algorithms and win, and we make a courageous decision each day to prioritize user safety over short term metrics. That is absolutely a business priority for us.

00:22:17:19 - 00:22:41:10 Jenna And so we as a company have made long term bets on making Pinterest a more positive place, one that is designed to be safer for our youngest users. So at Pinterest, we are the first and only to go from public to private for under sixteens and the first and only digital platform to support phone free schools. We are also one of the first to call for OS level age verification.

00:22:41:10 - 00:23:00:17 Jenna And so at the time, people thought Pinterest was really aging up and aging out, that we couldn't win over the next generation. But when we actually made the switch from public to private only and our stock price actually dropped because people thought it was just going to wreck us with young users. But when we listen to young users, we actually have seen the opposite thing.

00:23:00:17 - 00:23:32:14 Jenna Really appreciate the safety and protocols we've put in place. And so we're actually winning with Gen Z. Gen Z is our largest and fastest growing audience that over 50% of our users today. And they're turning to us to search and to find a safe, well-being driven space on the internet. And so to ensure that we're delivering on that overall mission, my team has designed a wellbeing measure that evaluates user well-being after usage, and we actually commit to reporting this in our ESG reporting as an accountability element.

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:57:05 Jenna So it's not just about saying that Pinterest as a company prioritizes well-being. It's about committing to measuring it, to tracking it and really holding ourselves accountable to it. This social Media wellbeing measurement tool assesses four key pillars safety, belonging, self-worth, and purpose. And so we're using proprietary tool that we built to do 1212 item question survey across all of these four buckets.

00:23:57:11 - 00:24:08:15 Jenna And what we found is in our most recent report, Pinterest maintained its position as the number one platform for positive impact on user well-being, scoring significantly above the competitive average.

00:24:08:17 - 00:24:16:13 Alison So I love that. Pinterest itself is another example where positivity is in the best interest of your audience. But also in the best interests of the business.

00:24:16:15 - 00:24:17:09 Jenna Absolutely.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:22:11 Alison Now, are you seeing any demographic differences in how positivity is resonating?

00:24:22:13 - 00:24:50:16 Jenna Yeah, I do think that it resonates deeply with Gen Z, and they're in this state of going through a self-identification and self-discovery journey, and so they want to do that in a safe place, you know, free of judgment, free of comparison, and so on Pinterest, they have plenty of space to explore and discover who they are. And as we think of behaviours, you know, one of the things my team talks about a lot is like, what is generational and what is life stage?

00:24:50:18 - 00:25:15:23 Jenna And as you know, Gen Z ages up and we even see Gen Alpha coming more into play. We know that is that life phase of self-discovery isn't going away for the youth of today and tomorrow. And so I'm really excited for Pinterest to continue to create spaces that are really safe for all people to explore and discover themselves, no matter where in the world they are or what age they are now.

00:25:15:23 - 00:25:24:16 Alison As an older folk have this positivity resonate, I'd love to think that it resonates very well with us as well, but you've got the research, so I'd love to hear more about that too.

00:25:24:18 - 00:25:51:03 Jenna Yes, absolutely. So positivity plays a role in every generation. My husband is Gen X and he's always joking that they are the forgotten generation when it comes to marketing. But what we see is that, you know, a positive and safe environment is one where people are poised to act no matter their generation. And so that ability to seek intent, you know, as a parent, I do a lot of shopping and planning on Pinterest for my family in our lives.

00:25:51:03 - 00:26:17:04 Jenna And so that we see is key for our users as well, where they're leaning in to plan their holidays for their family or as grandparents shopping for gifts for their kids out there. We're seeing engagement at lots of different levels, and again, in a place that is safe and frankly, creative and inspiring. And so the amazing thing about creativity today and creativity on Pinterest is that it's universally accessible.

00:26:17:04 - 00:26:28:05 Jenna And so that's something that no matter your age, young or old, I believe that everyone benefits from a burst of creative energy in their lives. And that's something that Pinterest absolutely delivers.

00:26:28:09 - 00:26:44:10 Alison As another Gen Xer, thank you very much. So I am really lucky to host senior guests like you on each of my episodes. So I always end by asking our guests to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps, so I'd love to hear the wisdom that you share.

00:26:44:12 - 00:27:04:11 Jenna Absolutely. I mean, I11, I love this question, and partially I love it because my my answer is to continue to ask questions. So, you know, as a researcher that is my work pursuit. It's also as a human being, my life pursuit. And so I really encourage everyone to never be afraid to ask questions. There's no such thing as a bad question.

00:27:04:13 - 00:27:25:01 Jenna Like, as I mentioned earlier, I was that curious kid who never stopped asking questions. And so now I feel like I'm the luckiest person in the world because I get paid to ask important questions for a living. But in general, people really want to share about their experience, and asking questions is the best way to learn something new and connect on a human to human level with the people you work with and meet.

00:27:25:02 - 00:27:30:21 Jenna So I encourage everyone to stay curious, ask questions, and just never stop. Learning from the people around you.

00:27:31:01 - 00:27:51:08 Alison Is absolutely outstanding advice and your inquisitive little girl that's still inside is very proud to see adults and thank you Alison and thanks so much. This have been absolutely wonderful conversation and use positivity as well. So I thank you for bringing some bright sunshine and some really important research and findings to our audience today.

00:27:51:10 - 00:27:58:14 Jenna Thank you so much for having me.

00:27:58:16 - 00:28:11:05 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free my CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Why isn't Canada a leader in AI adoption? Sabrina Geremia, Vice President & Country Managing Director at Google Canada, tells Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, that Canada was a leader in AI creation but is falling behind in adoption. With only 26% of Canadian organizations having adopted Generative AI, despite the potential to save workers 170 hours annually, Google suggests empowering people, accelerating AI value creation, and contributing to the Canadian national ecosystem.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:12 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:14 - 00:00:27:21 Alison The artificial intelligence revolution isn't just changing how we work. It's redefining what's possible for Canadian businesses and the economy as a whole. There are many benefits, but also risks associated with that are super important to understand. As AI continues to innovate at breakneck speed, the question really becomes how can Canadian marketers and businesses harness these advances to drive growth and close our productivity gap in ethical and responsible ways? For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Sabrina Geremia, VP and Country Manager for Google Canada.

00:00:54:10 - 00:01:25:21 Alison Sabrina will be celebrating her 20th anniversary with Google in May and next year Google is actually celebrating their 25th anniversary in Canada as well. Sabrina has led Google Canada's strategic direction and advertising business since 2017, focusing on fostering Canada's digital economy by assisting businesses in growth, supporting the tech sector and enhancing digital skills among Canadians. With over 25 years of experience spanning marketing, public relations, sales and general management, Sabrina brings a unique perspective to the intersection of technology and business transformation.

00:01:26:02 - 00:01:48:19 Alison Her journey actually began in consumer packaged goods before making a strategic pivot to technology during the early dot-com era. At Google she has held various leadership positions, including managing director of Integrated Solutions, building her expertise as a trusted advisor to Canada's C-suite. She's been recognized as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women and the recipient of the Women in Communication Technology Women of the Year Award.

00:01:49:01 - 00:02:11:00 Alison Sabrina is deeply committed to advancing digital skills and innovation in Canada. Her experience really positions her uniquely to speak about AI's potentially transformative impact on marketing, as well as Canada's productivity challenges and the evolution of digital advertising in an increasingly AI-driven landscape. Welcome, Sabrina. It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:02:11:05 - 00:02:13:06 Sabrina Hi, Alison, it's so great to be here.

00:02:13:08 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd like to kick things off by hearing a bit about your career. So as I mentioned, you started your career in consumer packaged goods with P&G, and then you pivoted and have spent the majority in tech, including your upcoming 20th anniversary with Google. What inspired you to change industries fairly early in your career and what's kept you in tech?

00:02:31:01 - 00:02:55:22 Sabrina Yeah, well, it's so great to be here and I love spending time with the CMA. You know, especially as a former board member, I know that the work that you do is so valuable and important to Canada. So thank you for that. Yeah, my career has been an interesting one. I have actually lived through the three arcs of technology. So I have been working for close to three decades, and I've kind of gone from no internet to the internet, from internet to mobile,

00:02:55:22 - 00:03:18:21 Sabrina and now this just enormous and transformative AI moment. And so pre-internet, I mean, I am Canadian, I grew up in Guelph, just outside of Toronto, and I went to Laurier, for university, and I did my last year in Italy as an exchange student. And from there I worked at Procter and Gamble. And when I worked at Procter and Gamble, it was really underlying what you know very well, Alison.

00:03:18:21 - 00:03:38:21 Sabrina Just like the importance of marketing and how important the foundation fundamentals of marketing are. So I worked there for about five years. I worked across cosmetics and some of their laundry business all across Italy. But I had friends who were in the Valley, and I saw the internet coming, and I knew that it was coming. And I just, you know, knew it was going to be very transformative.

00:03:38:21 - 00:03:58:01 Sabrina I remember one day driving past the Colosseum and just reflecting on like, wow, like that amazing moment when all of this new technology and these new advancements were happening in Rome. I want to be part of that. So I left my job and I did what, you know, many people do. I took a year to kind of move around.

00:03:58:01 - 00:04:16:16 Sabrina I did a lot of nonprofit work. I did a lot of volunteer work. I went to Asia. I did some work with the UN on what the internet could mean for the digital divide. And this was all, again, just at the emergence of the internet. And then I went and landed at Ask Jeeves and after that, Reckitt Benckiser and really learned the foundations of the internet.

00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:22 Sabrina And I was working in London and globally at that time. And then from there, Google found me, and I started working at Google in 2006, in London, in the UK, and I helped them set up like our whole consumer packaged goods practice on how were we going to work with CPG companies like Reckitt, like P&G, the largest advertisers in the world, and help them shift and transition to this internet future?

00:04:40:00 - 00:04:55:15 Sabrina So a little while later, I came back to Canada and was so happy to come back. And during my time and, you know, working all the aisles of the grocery store in Canada, that was the big shift to mobile. And the shift to mobile was big. Like, no one believed that you would ever buy a pair of running shoes on a mobile phone.

00:04:55:19 - 00:05:13:05 Sabrina And yet we know today people buy cars on mobile phone. They do all sorts of things on their mobile. The form factor had changed. And so, you know, fast forward to today. It's the third shift. It's a really big one. It's very transformative. We've done it before. We're going to do it again. And you know what inspires me really

00:05:13:06 - 00:05:36:19 Sabrina you know, to stay in tech, and I've been in tech like, you know, we said for over 20 years and even more, if you count my experience before Google, is that really it's our mission. Like our mission at Google in this moment is really on helpfulness, and it's making AI helpful for everybody. And in Canada, what inspires me is our shared mission as a team to help make Canada a global leader in AI in the value creation phase.

00:05:36:19 - 00:06:04:10 Sabrina We've been such leaders in the creation of the tech. I want us to be leaders in the adoption and value creation. And this really means empowering our people, it means accelerating AI value creation with all of the amazing partners that you work with every day, and also contributing to the national ecosystem in Canada, and and it really is important to get this right in Canada, because while we were leaders in the creation of AI, we're starting to fall behind in the adoption phase.

00:06:04:12 - 00:06:25:15 Alison I love your career story and the fact that you actually started internationally, spent a number of years. I also love that you've demonstrated great bravery as you decided I want to try something different. Most people would find another job and grow that way, and you took a bet on yourself that clearly paid off and led to some fascinating experiences, including work with the UN, and ultimately brought you to tech.

00:06:25:15 - 00:06:46:18 Alison So lesson number one for our listeners is that willingness to bet on yourself and take some measured risks throughout your career can be an amazing accelerator. So AI is certainly shaping the future across industries. From your perspective as head of Google at Canada, what do you see as the biggest opportunities that AI presents for businesses and the economy in Canada right now?

00:06:47:00 - 00:07:10:14 Sabrina That is a really important question, Alison, and probably one that I think about every day. We talked earlier about being so ahead in the primary research. If you think about many of the AI greats who contributed to this technology, a lot of them were here and a lot of them are here today. And, you know, we have a lot of great primary researchers and a lot of engineers and technological strength in the AI fields.

00:07:10:16 - 00:07:33:12 Sabrina But some of the latest reports are showing that we're lagging in the adoption of AI right now as an economy. So there was a Deloitte report out recently that only 26% of Canadian organizations have adopted AI, and that's about, you know, ten points lower than other companies in a global peer set. So this idea here that we created it, but we're not moving fast enough to adopt it.

00:07:33:14 - 00:07:57:09 Sabrina What's at stake is productivity and opportunity. And you know, the valuation of this is around 230 billion in economic impact for Canada. So that's eight points of GDP. It could save the average worker three and a half weeks per year, 170 hours per year of work. And that's kind of lower value tasks that then you can kind of uplevel and do different things and do them more effectively.

00:07:57:09 - 00:08:17:09 Sabrina So I think really about having Canadians being able to use the tools, adopt the tools. We know that people know it's important. We did a poll of businesses and 84% of C-levels in Canada and business leaders think that AI really does offer an important opportunity for the Canadian economy. Almost 80% of them agree that it's going to have a positive impact on productivity.

00:08:17:14 - 00:08:41:06 Sabrina But we need businesses of all shapes and sizes, from the SMBs to retailers, to manufacturing to agriculture. This is a multipurpose tool, right? We need adoption to accelerate and the value creation to follow that. So really it's about putting AI to work for Canadians today. And the really good news here is like we're talking to an audience of marketers, is that marketers are playing an outsized role in the adoption of AI at this moment.

00:08:41:08 - 00:08:44:12 Sabrina And they are leaders in using AI to supercharge their strategies and results. So we do know that it's working.

00:08:47:00 - 00:09:13:06 Alison Building on that, we did some CMA research and found out that, to your point, marketers are ahead of other Canadian knowledge groups, including scientists, so that's encouraging. But we're still sitting, I think 72%. So there's still lots of growth. We know even before AI, Canada's productivity gap is a real challenge. The fact that we had such an amazing head start and leadership role in AI, and we've given some of that up for sure.

00:09:13:08 - 00:09:24:03 Alison And then combine that with your recent research. Around 80% of Canadian business leaders know this is a powerful tool. So what do you think is getting in the way of our adoption?

00:09:24:05 - 00:09:44:13 Sabrina You know I mean I think we're going to get there. So I have faith in Canada. Like we are smart, we are resourceful and we are talented. But you know what we're focused on really Google Canada's two things - like one is really about skilling Canadians. Right. And people and skills matter foundationally so much. And then second is about creating and scaling business value.

00:09:44:13 - 00:10:01:09 Sabrina So if we look at the people and skills there, there is some data to suggest that Canadians are a little more fearful of AI than their global peers. And that is probably, you know, creating some of the adoption lag here. And we know the opportunity and it's 230 billion. But we know that Canadians want to learn AI skills.

00:10:01:09 - 00:10:19:09 Sabrina And so 63% of Canadian workers want to acquire these skills. I was in a cafe this weekend and I was with my son, and we were sitting next to two people who were working on laptops, and he kind of gave me the elbow and he said, listen, mummy, they're talking and teaching each other how to use Gemini. So they were in a cafe teaching each other how to use Google Gemini.

00:10:19:09 - 00:10:41:23 Sabrina I think they might have been teachers. And I turned to him and I said, yeah, because everybody knows that using these tools is really going to help them supercharge their skills and supercharge what they're doing. So we are trying to contribute to that through, we launched an AI Opportunity Fund. It's a $13 million fund, and it's a goal to actually support two million with AI skills.

00:10:41:23 - 00:11:07:03 Sabrina So 2 million Canadians supercharged with AI skills. We have an amazing roster of nonprofits and partners that we're working with, like the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute, Skills for Change, the First Nations Technology Council, and the Toronto Public Library. If you live in Toronto and you go into a TPL branch, you will probably see a sign that says, join us for learning circle around a Grow with Google AI Essential certificate.

00:11:07:03 - 00:11:25:14 Sabrina And so these certificates are micro-credentials. They're short courses that you can do in one batch, or you can do it a little bit at a time. And it's really helping people use the schools to be more effective in their work, and to build practical, hands on AI skills. This AI essentials that is part of the Grow with Google portfolio,

00:11:25:18 - 00:11:46:11 Sabrina it's the most popular Gen AI course on Coursera of all time globally, and what I find really promising about it is we talk to many of the people who have graduated, and there's been 54,000 Canadians who have graduated so far, and 75% of them are reporting a positive career outcome after they take this course. They might get a promotion.

00:11:46:11 - 00:12:04:15 Sabrina Then maybe they get to work on a new project. They might find a job. And so we know that when they, you know, work on their skills and learn how to use these tools, they create value. So I think the skilling of Canadians is really foundational. It's really important. I encourage anyone listening who wants to learn to check out the Grow with Google.

00:12:04:15 - 00:12:26:17 Sabrina There are also many other options out there. But again, we want to get every Canadian, not just the 2 million powered up with AI skills. Then the second area is really about business value creation. Like we have to accelerate the business adoption and value creation as the tools are emerging. And one of the things that I think is really important is that AI isn't a strategy.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:47:02 Sabrina Your business strategy can deliver more with AI. So I'm always asking folks like, what is your business strategy enabled by AI? Right? And then that becomes a totally different conversation. And that's really important for marketers, like marketers right now, it's it's a tough balancing job. And you know this, right? You you probably hear it from all of the CMA members every day.

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:08:07 Sabrina You're being asked to drive exponential growth. You're being asked to do it while delivering on efficiency. You're being asked to do new creative things differently. And what we've seen is that leading marketers who are using AI are seeing 60% business results, whether it's making media work better, finding new customers you didn't know you were looking for, it could be personalizing creative and delivering it at scale.

00:13:08:11 - 00:13:32:14 Sabrina It might be back end processes where you're iterating, etc. or it might be in the emerging fields of solving customer needs better with AI agents. So when I look at all of these use cases with a really powered up workforce in Canada that knows how to use these tools, I think that this is the building block of really seeing that 230 billion economic impact for Canada become real.

00:13:32:14 - 00:13:46:08 Sabrina I see so many glimmers of this happening, and I just, you know, my hope for Canada is that we can figure out what works, we can scale it quickly, and we can avoid pilot paralysis where we're stuck in a bunch of pilots. We're actually scaling what's working.

00:13:46:12 - 00:14:22:22 Alison Well said. And I share your optimism for Canada as well. And I was at your kickoff for the $13 million accelerator. And just to see the organizations that you're partnering with and the active role you're playing in helping upskill 2 million Canadians is such an important step in our ability to really deliver on the opportunity. Now you talked a bit about how this is impacting marketing, and you're absolutely right that whether it's AI or any new major market shift, consumer shift or technological shift, when you're sitting around the executive table, all eyes tend to turn to the CMO first with an expectation that we're going to figure it out first, which also can be a little intimidating.

00:14:22:22 - 00:14:40:14 Alison You've had over two decades in tech. You've seen incredible transformation, including the three major cycles that you've talked a bit about. How have Canadians habits, especially around expectations of brand and marketing, fundamentally evolved during this time, leading us into today's more AI-driven landscape?

00:14:40:16 - 00:15:03:23 Sabrina It's evolving. You know, on the whole premise, one of the main values of Google is like, you know, follow the user and all else will follow. And as technology emerges, user behaviour evolves. And it's happening pretty quick. So Google DeepMind, which is our primary research, it's our team at Google and it's led by Demis Hassabis. And he actually says that it's it's happening at 10x the industrial revolution, happening at 10x the speed.

00:15:04:01 - 00:15:20:14 Sabrina So if you put that math together, it's happening at 100x. So maybe, you know, I'll share a little story with you. Like I realized that I needed to buy a swimsuit for an upcoming trip. And so I turned to Search and I started searching for swimsuits. And I came across a new brand that I had never heard of, which is called Left on Friday.

00:15:20:16 - 00:15:44:12 Sabrina And I thought, that's really interesting. I'd like to learn more. Like, is this a Canadian-founded company? That was the question that I asked. And it actually took me to AI Overviews. And it told me, yes, indeed it was. It's a company founded by two Canadians and they're based in BC, and they have created this brand. So then I pivoted to AI Mode, which is the tab that actually allows you to have a conversational experience with the AI.

00:15:44:16 - 00:16:04:06 Sabrina And I started asking about their product assortment reviews and doing comparisons and so on. Then I went back to Search and I asked to go to the site, and I started looking at places that I could buy it, and I found out where the store was, and there's one in Toronto. And so this is just such a perfect example of how Canadian consumers are just doing things differently.

00:16:04:06 - 00:16:27:18 Sabrina Right? It's more complex. They're searching, they're streaming, they're scrolling, they're shopping. They're watching the game, often simultaneously. Right? They're doing a lot of things all at once. And consumers are now interacting with around 130 mobile touch points a day. So when you think about that story of what I did, like, you know, the the AI overviews, 2 billion people are seeing this every month.

00:16:27:18 - 00:16:43:05 Sabrina AI Mode, we just launched it. It's already at 100 million users per month. And users of AI mode, they're asking questions that are 2 to 3 times longer than traditional queries. That's not even to mention Google Lens, Circle to Search, all of these new features that we have.

00:16:43:07 - 00:17:02:20 Alison Sabrina, you clearly have your PhD in multitasking. And I can personally vouch for the Left on Friday swim brand. I have a couple of their bathing suits, and I'm a proud supporter of outstanding Canadian business. I'd love you to go a little bit deeper on AI's impact and gains in advertising, and share some of the tangible gains marketers who are actively investing in AI are seeing in their campaigns.

00:17:04:18 - 00:17:24:22 Sabrina You know, we said earlier, like, this is just such a huge boost. I think marketers are ahead in leveraging AI tools, and we know that when they're integrating AI tools, the reporting 60% greater revenue growth. And that's what's so important is that we're now able to measure two business outcomes, right. We're not talking stories of media metrics anymore.

00:17:24:22 - 00:17:53:00 Sabrina It's really understanding how we can make Canadian companies grow. And there are a lot of different use cases. You know, another one of my favourite stories is a Aritzia. So, you know, I don't know if you know, the Super Puff, Alison? My daughter bought one of them last winter and she swears by it. She absolutely loves it. But Aritzia worked with us and they used AI to identify that Super Puff jacket demand and people interested in it wasn't happening just in October and November and in the winter. It was spiking as early as June.

00:17:53:05 - 00:18:15:22 Sabrina So it's something that you may not think about, you know, like when your demand is spiking for something like a warm winter jacket. So they pivoted quickly. They looked at how they could meet demand earlier. They worked with us on Demand Gen, YouTube, on early awareness, search and performance max on conversion to high tech. They played the entire funnel and they optimized their performance against profitability goals.

00:18:15:22 - 00:18:37:06 Sabrina Again, a business goal, not of media metrics. And the Super Puff team saw that 55% year over year increases in demand were happening thanks to the efforts that they did. So I think that's just like one example of many on the media front of just really being thoughtful of where demand is, how to actually measure to the right number on demand.

00:18:37:11 - 00:19:00:08 Sabrina But then how to use AI to maximize profitable outcomes, irrespective of what you might think that someone is going to be shopping for a Super Puff in the winter as opposed to starting in June. And so that's on the media front. We're also seeing a lot of use cases on the process front, on the creative front. And again, a lot of new emergent areas in AI and agents as well.

00:19:00:10 - 00:19:26:08 Alison So you shared some very compelling reasons for our listeners, if they're not already embracing AI, to start, having 60% better revenue growth, having 55% increase in year over year demand. So it's clear there are a lot of very powerful benefits with AI. There are also risks. So how is Google ensuring the ethical and responsible adoption of AI? And what advice would you give to marketing professionals who have tuned in today?

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:48:05 Sabrina Alison, that is a really important question and I'm really glad that you asked it. And, you know, it's something that we talk about a lot at Google, because it's really important to us. And the premise here is really about building AI boldly and responsible together. You know, the idea is that we want AI to benefit everyone, right? This is a multipurpose tool that has a lot of potential.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:08:02 Sabrina So we were the first to develop our AI principles to guide our work. And it's about having bold innovation and developing an AI that assists and empowers, inspires and drives economic progress. We want the AI to improve people's lives. We want it to enable scientific breakthroughs. We want it to help with some of the biggest challenges that we're facing.

00:20:08:02 - 00:20:34:01 Sabrina Like one of the places I find in Google very inspiring is Isomorphic Labs. Think of the mission to solve all disease. It's such a bold mission, and this is really about reimagining drug discovery with AI. And when you look at some of the tools that are available right now, like AlphaFold, being able to look at DNA sequences and measure them and actually have them with AI and allow them to see the entire sequence, it actually just supercharges drug discovery.

00:20:34:04 - 00:20:57:07 Sabrina It supercharges solutions in really important areas. So bold innovation is really important because we need to think bold in things that benefit humanity. But we also need to do it responsible, right. So we need to develop and deploy AI responsibly. We need to acknowledge that there are complexities and risks throughout the life cycles. We have to adapt as it is evolved and we have to do this in collaboration.

00:20:57:09 - 00:21:19:21 Sabrina We create these tools for collective benefit, and we need to collaborate with different stakeholders to make sure that this is working. So from a regulation perspective, we know that AI is too important not to regulate, but it's too important not to regulate well. And we need to focus on the opportunity, not just the risk and be balanced. Because AI does have risks, but it also has tremendous potential.

00:21:20:02 - 00:21:36:23 Alison On the regulatory side, you're absolutely right, it needs to be regulated and it needs to be regulated well, which is challenging given the pace it's moving at. And no one, whether you're an AI guru or not, can really know where it's heading. So what advice would you give from a regulatory perspective?

00:21:37:01 - 00:22:06:00 Sabrina I think from a regulatory perspective, it's really about being aligned, balanced and competitive. And really looking at the risk and the opportunity together and working together with the stakeholder community. You know, talking to startups, talking to different people who are using it, because it is a moving target in terms of the technology. So it has to be at the right level of application, with the right level of inputs and reflect not just the risk but also the opportunity.

00:22:06:02 - 00:22:07:10 Alison Now I want to pivot a little bit.

00:22:07:10 - 00:22:26:16 Alison So there's lots of discussion around many tools and many benefits of Gen AI, and overlaid with what's the role for us humans in that? Looking ahead, what's Google's long term vision for integrating Gen AI into ad creation and campaign management, and how do you see this impact potentially even enhancing the role of human advertisers?

00:22:26:16 - 00:22:46:10 Sabrina Yeah, so today, you know, we've talked through some of the examples of just how AI is really making it easier for advertisers. They're going to show up in moments that you can't plan for, you know, like buying a Super Puff in June or buying a Left on Friday bathing suit while you're watching the game. And that's where I really we're investing in all of our campaigns like Performance Max, Demand Gen, AI Max Research.

00:22:46:10 - 00:23:15:08 Sabrina We know that the more that these are used, the more surfaces they're going to be displayed on, and the more demand that they're going to capture the business outcomes that the client needs. But I think as we evolve all of our capabilities, one area that I'm personally very excited about is the potential for SMBs. So Canada is a country of SMBs, and I think AI offer such a huge opportunity for them to show up and for them to to market in a way that I can't even imagine would have been possible when I started marketing over 30 years ago.

00:23:15:09 - 00:23:43:19 Sabrina You know, the tools that an SMB can have, whether it's on content creation or finding customers around the world, is pretty incredible. So like there is a restaurant in Burlington called Familia Fine Foods. It's a small local restaurant. They do really great takeaway, and they wanted to go bigger. And so they worked with us on Google Ads, AI-powered ads with different combinations of headlines and descriptions and really finding people who cared about what they were offering.

00:23:43:19 - 00:24:07:12 Sabrina And they increased their online sales by 27% in the past year. So, you know, if you're a small business, a restaurant owner, or any small business, like that, that can be game changing for you. The ability to grow your sales 27%. And I think all of these opportunities now put together is really what is going to drive some of that $230 billion in economic input.

00:24:07:16 - 00:24:19:16 Sabrina And we are trying to make all of our platforms and all of our advertising accessible, not just to the large, amazing businesses in Canada, but also companies like Familia Fine Foods.

00:24:19:18 - 00:24:38:10 Alison I love that example because you're absolutely right, SMBs play a mission critical role in our economy and are driving the bulk of our GDP, so that 27% growth is a great example of the power that could be amplified. It's also such a powerful tool for making SMBs much more scalable and competitive against the big guys.

00:24:38:10 - 00:24:54:16 Sabrina We're seeing a lot of interest right now in export, Canadian companies looking to find audiences all over the world and we're seeing that this is something, again, like an SMB can access markets outside of Canada in a way that maybe they couldn't have ten, 15 years ago.

00:24:54:18 - 00:25:08:20 Alison Absolutely. Now the creator economy is also booming, and I know YouTube's obviously a dominant player. So what is Google doing to support creators, and what are some of the new tools or initiatives in place to facilitate effective partnerships between brands and creators?

00:25:09:00 - 00:25:35:12 Sabrina Yeah, the YouTube creator piece is just so amazing. Like if you haven't had the chance to talk to a YouTube creator, I really suggest you do. There's 35,000 jobs around the YouTube creator ecosystem just in Canada. It contributes more than 1.8 billion to Canada's GDP. Huge exporters. Right? So if you're a creator in Canada, you're making content for the Canadian audience, but you're exporting over 90% of your watch time to other markets.

00:25:35:12 - 00:25:57:10 Sabrina And think about all of these new translation tools and other capabilities that you can have. And I think one of the things that people may not be aware of is that for every dollar in advertising that a creator or a YouTuber makes in Canada, 55% of it or $0.55 goes to them. So this is that 1.8 billion is an enormous economic powerhouse in Canada.

00:25:57:12 - 00:26:24:10 Sabrina And these YouTube creators are finding fame and they're finding audiences all over the world. So I spend as much time as I can with creators because I find them so fascinating. And I'm so excited about the work that they're doing. And we really punch above our weight in Canada. And there was an Ipsos study just recently that online users are 98% more likely to trust the recommendations of creators on YouTube, and that's like versus any other social sites or apps.

00:26:24:13 - 00:26:48:05 Sabrina And so creators are now embedded in influencing and in creating opportunities for brands in Canada. So we just launched the Creator Partnerships Hub. This is a dedicated tool that lives in Google Ads, and it really lets advertisers see and manage all of their creator campaigns, so that you can combine this trust of creators and your AI-powered campaigns, and you can reach different audiences.

00:26:48:07 - 00:27:04:00 Sabrina So I think it's really exciting, and I think every every 14 year old wants to be a creator. And we have Take Your Kids to Work Day. And one of the things we're going to talk to them about is how do creators start their businesses, because so many people find that to be such a fascinating opportunity.

00:27:04:06 - 00:27:11:21 Alison It really would be a fascinating career. I'm at the other end of my career where I'm now thinking about retirement, so maybe I should join and make it part of my retirement plan.

00:27:11:22 - 00:27:27:11 Sabrina Alison. Absolutely. Well, you know what? The other thing? Podcasts is one of the fastest growing and largest areas on YouTube right now. So people are looking at podcasts on video, they're watching it on CTV on their big screen. So it's maybe that could be your next calling.

00:27:27:13 - 00:27:42:22 Alison There you go. Figuring out my retirement plan as a side benefit to this episode. So for marketers and employees that are navigating this AI transformation, what is your advice for helping them truly focus on thriving and making the most of this new era?

00:27:43:00 - 00:28:03:05 Sabrina You know, I think it can seem overwhelming, but we did it before with the shift to mobile, so we can do it again. With the shift to AI, and what I see folks who are actually getting that 60% value doing is a couple of things. Like, first of all, they're anchoring to value. They're not having an AI strategy.

00:28:03:05 - 00:28:26:19 Sabrina They're having a business strategy that's enabled by AI. Second, they're scaling fast, so they're figuring out of all the pilots are doing what do they need to scale, what do they need to sunset and avoiding pilot paralysis. And third, they're bringing their people along on the journey. And this is the trickiest thing. I truly believe that the AI transformation is one part tech and three parts change management, leadership, culture.

00:28:26:23 - 00:28:50:01 Sabrina And it really is about your whole organization having the basic skills to understand it and to set that strategy. Having all members of the C-level table all in. And like you said, the CMO can be such a guiding light on this. I really feel that strongly. The HR leader has such an important role to play and to pace the change and to pace the creation and to scale the value creation.

00:28:50:01 - 00:29:06:05 Sabrina So, you know, like not everyone needs to be AI-proficient, like someone being able to create a large language model or set up a whole system. But everyone needs to understand the basics of AI, and everyone needs to understand how to anchor to that business value and process and manage this change.

00:29:06:07 - 00:29:22:04 Alison That is outstanding advice. Now, I'm very fortunate to have some of Canada's top business leaders like you as guests on the podcast. So I end every episode with a question that I know our listeners are going to be very keen to hear your answer on. What's one piece of career advice that you would share with listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps?

00:29:22:06 - 00:29:39:20 Sabrina You know, my kids ask me this, and what's so interesting is that when I was their age, my job didn't exist. So what I always anchor on, I call it the unicorn of the future of work. So, Alison, I think that the unicorn of the future of work is a combination of left brain, logical reasoning, right brain, creative.

00:29:39:20 - 00:30:00:23 Sabrina So both of them together, left brain and right brain and supercharged with AI. And tools are going to evolve. Jobs will evolve. But the skills that you have need to be grounded in using those tools, but also the combination of both the logic, the reasoning and the creativity, the collaboration and the fundamentals of how you work with people are so important.

00:30:00:23 - 00:30:18:18 Sabrina I think creativity is the undersold super skill of tomorrow, but you also need to be technically relevant, right? I'm always encouraging people understand the tools, understand them enough to be dangerous, and then hire the people around you that are going to be able to go very deep on it. You know, but all of this is also just about being curious.

00:30:18:18 - 00:30:46:22 Sabrina Like there's so much curiosity in everything that we're doing right now with AI. If you think about your ability to have the world's information on your phone and now you're able to interact with it in a multi-modal way through Gemini Live, through some of these new tools. I just think it is such an exciting time. One to be a marketer, two to be in Canada, and I'm very hopeful for our ability to create value for the Canadian economy.

00:30:46:22 - 00:31:02:04 Sabrina But not just that, to solve some of those big challenges that we talked about earlier, like the things that really matter to us in our societies as well, and that we can do it together, and we will look back on this era and the way that we look back at mobile and think, wow, we did that.

00:31:02:06 - 00:31:25:21 Alison That is outstanding advice. And I love the unicorn of the future of work, and you're absolutely right. So many jobs didn't exist five years ago that exist today. So your ability to stay curious and learn and have both sides of your brain engaged is mission critical. So Sabrina, it's been an absolute delight. I know you're incredibly busy, and I appreciate how generous you've been with your time and looking forward to seeing you at an upcoming event as well.

00:31:25:23 - 00:31:31:06 Sabrina Thank you for the work that you do, Alison. And like the CMA is so important and I'm grateful for the partnership.

00:31:31:11 - 00:31:43:01 Alison Well, thank you. We've got amazing members and I've got an amazing team or none of this would be possible. So thank you as well.

00:31:43:03 - 00:31:55:16 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Isn't all marketing performance driven? Lauren Bradeen, CMO and Partner at Deloitte, challenges the traditional brand-versus-performance debate in her conversation with Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA. When Lauren stepped into the CMO role, she was driven to evolve the B2B marketing industry playbook. Now she's leading a transformation to help B2B marketers build marketing teams that are confident in the value they bring, rather than constantly justifying every dollar. Plus, Lauren shares why being a 'capability collector' is the secret to career advancement.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:47:22 Alison I'm very happy to welcome Lauren Bradeen, Chief Marketing Officer and Partner at Deloitte Canada, for today's episode. Lauren is leading a comprehensive marketing transformation that's redefining how one of the world's premier professional services firms is approaching the integration of brand and performance marketing. Her expertise and strategic thinking have been showcased in industry publications, where she's contributed insights on the evolving challenges facing modern marketers.

00:00:48:00 - 00:01:10:06 Alison Lauren's also been actively engaged in developing the next generation of marketing talent, recently participating as a guest speaker at our CMA NXT Marketing Careers Night, and she was also a judge for this year's CMA Awards. What sets Lauren apart is her journey from in the business into marketing leadership. She really understands how Deloitte works with clients, the processes behind it, and how to speak the language of the business.

00:01:10:08 - 00:01:33:06 Alison Currently, she's leading Deloitte Marketing through what she calls the messy middle, an important part of any transformation. And they're moving from an operational marketing function to a strategic brand and growth engine with their own targets and accountability, all while maintaining Deloitte's position as the number one brand globally in the category. With marketing leaders across industries grappling with the false choice between brand building and performance marketing,

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:46:02 Alison Lauren's approach can offer a roadmap for how these traditionally siloed functions really need to work together to drive real business success. Welcome, Lauren, I am absolutely thrilled to have you join us here today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:01:46:04 - 00:01:48:04 Lauren Thank you. Alison. So am I.

00:01:48:06 - 00:01:59:04 Alison So let's get started with your story. When you stepped into the CMO role at Deloitte, what was it that resonated for you about that role and what were some of your early priorities?

00:01:59:06 - 00:02:20:08 Lauren So I would offer that my journey into the role might have been a little bit more unconventional, as I was actually offered the role while on maternity leave, and so that really provided me a bit of space without an existing mandate to be focused on, to really think about the opportunity. And there were three things that surfaced for me.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:42:12 Lauren The first was to drive a greater impact for the firm. And so this role supports all of our businesses and all of our industries. And so within that, I have the opportunity to actually learn from and work with leaders across operate and consulting services and tax and legal, ER and I G.P.S. And so that was really, really interesting for me.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:14:23 Lauren The second was I had felt like the B2B playbook had not made as much progress over the last decade. And so I was excited about this opportunity for an industry that felt pretty ripe for transformation. And then the third piece was, what an honour. And so when they offered me the role, I felt like from a personal career perspective, the growth, the leadership opportunity to work with this large, incredible team, it just felt like something that I absolutely couldn't turn down.

00:03:15:01 - 00:03:38:13 Lauren And so being on maternity leave, that also gave me a bit of space in a different way to think about what I wanted to do before I actually started the role. And so as I stepped into the role, the immediate priorities I had gone in with a bit of like blue sky unconstrained strategy, what were all the things that I would have loved when I was in the business?

00:03:38:15 - 00:03:57:18 Lauren And then once I started the role and did my listening tour, in that first month, I was really able to validate, invalidate, gain new ideas from the team, hear all the things that they had always wanted to do, but maybe felt like they couldn't. And so right off the bat, the focus was just getting the strategy set.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:15:07 Lauren I started in Q2 as well for Deloitte, and so I felt like if I waited too long, it could actually be a bit more disruptive. And so we got that strategy in place, shared out this strategy so that everybody on the team felt part of and very clear on, what was our mission and what were we rallying around.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:36:03 Lauren And then the immediate priorities were around the areas that needed the most modernization in order to deliver on that strategy. And so we set up what we called task forces. There was about six of them, they're like mini consulting projects around things like digital transformation and KPIs and measurement. There were a few new capabilities we wanted to stand on, like our content studio.

00:04:36:05 - 00:04:40:06 Lauren And so those were the immediate priorities that we took on once I stepped into the role.

00:04:40:08 - 00:04:52:13 Alison I absolutely love that Deloitte gave you the promotion when you were on mat leave. That speaks so incredibly well of the culture, and the signal that that would have sent across the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:04:52:15 - 00:05:10:03 Lauren I will reinforce that. I felt incredibly honoured and also very proud of Deloitte for giving me that opportunity while on maternity leave. I also asked my leader, like, do you think this is something that I can do as a new mom? And she was like, I think you can do this because you're a new mom. Like the the perspective you'll bring.

00:05:10:03 - 00:05:15:13 Lauren And so that was definitely a very proud moment for me, for the firm.

00:05:15:15 - 00:05:45:02 Alison That's amazing. Now, one of the big themes in marketing today is the ongoing tension between brand marketing and performance marketing. It is so often treated as an "either or" instead of an "and" relationship. So with that as a backdrop, I know you're leading a significant transformation at Deloitte around performance marketing. I'd love you to share your approach to structuring and changing marketing within the organization to be more performance driven, acknowledging that the brand part is an important part of driving that performance as well.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:08:04 Lauren So first and foremost, I've never loved the term performance marketing. I can appreciate that what felt like quite suddenly, marketers could track a sale and attribute a dollar to the marketing spend. It was very exciting. But I actually think we did a disservice by categorizing a part of marketing as performance, because then what is everything else in service of?

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:32:00 Lauren And so I feel like the pendulum swung now back to needing a more balanced approach. And that's absolutely how we are embracing it. And so we call it "from brand to demand". And all marketing is performance driven. But it's in service of different KPIs. And so in terms of how we're thinking about performance marketing holistically, and you need that KPI framework.

00:06:32:00 - 00:07:03:01 Lauren So we have quantifiable KPIs across brand, eminence consideration and growth. And we work in service of that KPI framework. The next thing I'd say, that we have done, again, in service of this broader performance marketing definition, is being a little bit less binary around how we look at spend. And so I think even when performance marketing started being talked about, you'd say, okay, well, we need to invest this percentage of our budget on performance marketing and then this percentage on everything else.

00:07:03:03 - 00:07:27:07 Lauren Whereas the percentage splits or the way in which you flex your budget is very dependent on what you are marketing and the challenges that you're facing. We know that through things like media mixed modelling and different incrementality and approaches, you're going to learn what the right budget split at a given time is. But I do think we need to be more fluid in our approaches to budget and spending.

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:58:01 Lauren And so we're really thinking about, what are the needs of our business, what are the needs of our client, and what does that mean from a spend split perspective? In the same way that you wouldn't look at the cost to acquire every segment the same. And so I think that comes back to everything needing to be in service of that KPI framework, because if you're only looking at something like the cost per acquisition, you're going to miss out on more flexible budgeting and spend split strategy, which would actually be in service of more growth.

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:22:12 Lauren And then the last thing I'd offer is just the short term - long term balance. We're very lucky because Deloitte is a very client centric business, and we don't have the pressures of maybe a tech company or a consumer company where they have targets every week to meet on sales. Just by nature of the velocity of our sales cycle, we are more of a longer term business.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:45:01 Lauren And so we have that long term longevity of the business, longevity of the brand mindset. So I will be the first to admit that it is probably easier for us, but we know and the data shows that you have to think about the decisions that you're making in totality. If you stop investing in the brand, it makes it a lot harder and more expensive later to make up for that market share.

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:56:00 Alison Now, building on that, how do you define a high performance marketing function today and what does great look like? And I'd also love you to talk a little bit about how has that definition evolved.

00:08:56:02 - 00:09:28:22 Lauren So I think there's two parts of a high performance marketing team. There is the "what" and then there is the "how". And the "what" from my perspective is exactly what I just talked about. It's the KPI framework. And so every organization should have quantified targets across brands straight through to the bottom of the funnel. And with those quantified targets, there is a need for both a baseline and a benchmark view on those things so that you know you're not being too insular and what you're reaching for.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:48:12 Lauren But we also know that we ultimately have to continue to optimize and improve on our own metrics, because that's the data that we control, and we see and can compare apples to apples. And so once you have that, you have the targets for your KPI strategy. That's when you know what high performance is because that is meeting or exceeding all of your targets.

00:09:48:14 - 00:10:19:08 Lauren And then how do you meet and exceed your targets? That is your strategy, your people and then your process data and tech. And so to me people is actually decoupled from the others because people and culture are what you truly need to unleash to be high performance. If you have a culture of innovation and curiosity and testing and learning, a really like relentless and dedicated and excited team, you are going to be able to reach your targets time and time again,

00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:07 Lauren better than those that maybe don't have that culture where people feel really empowered and unconstrained. And then how you enable those people is through that virtuous cycle of process, tech and data. I'm in my head seeing like a slide because I am maybe a consultant at heart now, and so that's how I can visualize it is you really have like your people at the top, and then you've got that underpinning of the process, tech and data, and then your culture is the enabler.

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:06:10 Lauren And of course this evolves. So the inputs into those things is constantly evolving because we are in an industry that is never standing still in the same way that the conversations we're having about technology. We have technologies in a martech perspective that we weren't even talking about five years ago, whether that's your customer data platform or what have you.

00:11:06:15 - 00:11:24:08 Lauren And same with data and AI. And so you always have to be iterating and evolving the inputs. But I think that framing of ensuring that there's a connectedness behind your process, tech and data to empower and really unleash your people is what will get you to the most high performance outcomes and culture.

00:11:24:10 - 00:12:00:05 Alison Dividing it into the "what" and the "how" is a really powerful way to simplify a very complex topic. And then I'm in passionate agreement with you on the critical role of people and culture as really being the the secret weapon in driving true performance. When you think about the world of AI and how it's impacting very positively and potentially negatively our profession and our world, knowing that the culture and the people are such a differentiator should give everyone some comfort that while AI can be a very powerful tool, it's not going to replace us.

00:12:00:07 - 00:12:17:03 Lauren I'm of the same mindset. At Deloitte we talk about human-led, AI-enabled, and so there are absolutely incredible use cases for us to be elevating and improving the way we work. But the human potential and the authenticity of people, that is the power.

00:12:17:05 - 00:12:38:21 Alison And it can really help us scale. And when you think applying that to smaller businesses, it can be a very powerful competitive advantage as well.

Lauren Absolutely.

Alison So now we're going to do a little bit of myth-busting. And you've touched on this a bit. But between people, process, tech and data, what's the real unlock or the biggest myth that you'd like to bust about what actually drives performance?

00:12:38:23 - 00:13:01:00 Lauren Yeah, I maybe, gave the plot away a little bit on the last one. I'm, passionately in the camp of people. One of the offerings that I worked with clients on when I was in the consulting business was around upskilling. And in upskilling we were bringing forward the demos around the tech and deeper understanding of the data.

00:13:01:02 - 00:13:29:22 Lauren But one of the biggest, I think, challenges that organizations face is they invest a lot of money in the martech, a lot of money in the data, the integration of the systems, etc. and they expect that that and that alone will yield the outcomes. And then the business cases aren't being realized because they forget the fact that if you look at any go to market process, that the person that is running that process or taking you through that process, they have to have an understanding of the tech.

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:52:11 Lauren If you are writing a brief or you are delivering on a brief, if you're a creative or your immediate team or agency, and you don't have an understanding of the tech that can segment or better personalize or dynamic creative, you're not going to be able to write or receive that brief in the same way as somebody that does have the understanding of that tech and that data.

00:13:52:13 - 00:14:20:08 Lauren And so I think the biggest myth to bust is just the idea that you can, like, tech your way into high performance. You need the infrastructure, you need the martech, you need the connected data. But if you discount the need to upskill your people around that, or to build a culture where people get excited about that change and that progress and optimizing the tools that they use to get to market, then you won't yield the outcomes that you hoped for.

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:44:07 Alison Very well said. Now another passion that we share is the mission critical role that marketing plays in building businesses and contributing to Canada's economy. Yet we still at times struggle to get a seat at the table. So I'd love you to share how you see marketing as a strategic growth engine, and how you've been able to fight and get that important seat at the table with Deloitte.

00:14:44:09 - 00:15:05:06 Lauren So I think and I believe we can do this through the Canadian Marketing Association. All of the marketers need to hold hands and decide that we're just going to put the debate to bed once and for all, because has any other function in the history of business had to prove themselves and bring as much data to the table as marketing has.

00:15:05:08 - 00:15:28:07 Lauren I don't think so. And so I think if you look at the business case of marketing as an engine for brand and growth, and again, we have brought like the data-driven empirical proof that marketing drives growth. So there is a great study around looking at the impact of brand spend. And so organizations that are having a more holistic approach to marketing.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:51:20 Lauren What is the impact long term on sales CAGR? And they saw that those in the bottom quartile had 13 percentage points lower CAGRs than the top quartile. We've seen digital conversion points. We've seen e-commerce and the ability to track and attribute marketing to sales. We've seen the impact of cross-sell upsell in the customer onboarding, the ability to deepen customer lifetime value.

00:15:51:22 - 00:16:21:14 Lauren I think every organization and every marketer has the industry data to showcase brand and marketing as a driver of growth, as well as the stats and the data-driven proof points within your organization. And so I think that as long as a marketer is coming to the table with that data that we have to just put it to bed a little bit and have the confidence that we've already justified that marketing is a really, really great engine, both for brand and growth.

00:16:21:16 - 00:16:42:19 Alison For our listeners who aren't familiar with the research that Lauren cited, we'll make sure that we add it into the notes for the podcast so that you can access it. Lauren, you have an approach to reporting on marketing measurement that would be aspirational for many of our listeners. You track marketing ROI internally with your team and focus on brand health metrics when you're presenting to the executive.

00:16:42:21 - 00:16:48:07 Alison Can you walk us through this philosophy and how you're building credibility with the business using this process?

00:16:48:08 - 00:17:13:10 Lauren Well, thank you for that, Alison. I would agree. We have a fantastic foundation and strategy, but of course we are on a continuous journey to be more sophisticated. And so we're actually about to start some consulting projects with our analytics and marketing teams around automation, more AI enablement. And we have a fantastic new head of marketing analytics. So it really does feel like everything is coming together.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:41:02 Lauren But at its core, from an approach to reporting perspective, one critical thing I'd offer, which is just that brand to demand connected reporting view. And so for us, every campaign is categorized and it supports a specific set of KPIs that is from that broader set of KPIs in our framework that tells our performance story. And then we have different levels of reporting that are all connected.

00:17:41:04 - 00:18:04:16 Lauren And so at the highest level we have our full marketing performance story. And then there's program level reporting for each pod. And then campaign level reporting that's much more tactical and really where we see the metrics come through. And so this enables our executive and leadership team to understand the full impact. And then we can actually drill down where necessary to understand the why.

00:18:04:21 - 00:18:32:19 Lauren Why did we hit this KPI, why didn't we? Oh this looked really great. Let's understand so we can do more of that. And so that approach has really helped us have the most accurate snapshot that we can of the impact that we make across brand, eminence and growth. And the only other thing that I will say is I am very fortunate to work at an organization that is very supportive of the work that we do around brand and client value.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:47:11 Lauren And so there isn't really that over-rotation on short term sales thinking that can often skew marketing strategy. And so we are fortunate for great leadership in that regard that really lets this strategy and this approach to measurement live.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:58:03 Alison Now this type of change doesn't happen overnight. And I know some of our listeners are going to be thinking, I would love to be in that situation. So how would you recommend they get started on this transformation?

00:18:58:07 - 00:19:26:09 Lauren Two things that I'd say were pretty critical for us in the beginning. And the first was real conversations with the business to understand what value they need. And we weren't having conversations around, well, we can generate impressions and we can drive this many clicks. It was really just business to business conversations around, okay, so do you actually need these types of industries more aware of your services or, what type of functions do you actually need reading our content?

00:19:26:09 - 00:19:48:07 Lauren What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to see that you have the expertise in? And so having conversations like that with the business enables us to genuinely understand what it is that we can do that can help them be successful. And then we're able to, in the background, translate that into the marketing language and the marketing metrics.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:09:14 Lauren And so that first thing really is just genuinely seeking to understand the value that we can add for the business and offering our perspective on the areas that can actually help, or offering data and market research to say, I don't know if you actually do have an awareness challenge. I think people are pretty aware, maybe we need to do something a little bit more engagement-driven.

00:20:09:16 - 00:20:34:16 Alison You're also really elevating it beyond the marketing performance to, here is the business outcome and impact that we are holding ourselves accountable to and delivering against. So you're having a business conversation and marketing is obviously the key driver behind that. But the conversation you're having at the executive level is more here is the business impact the marketing team is having versus here's how our last few campaigns and initiatives performed, which is a much more important conversation.

00:20:34:21 - 00:21:04:15 Lauren Exactly. And I think that it's important to see that partnership and with the business, like, we don't do anything without the business. It is the business sharp insights that inform our POVs. It is our business leaders that are on the podcast. It is often even the inspiration for our campaigns that we get from the business, because they're spending every day with our clients and they are understanding the challenges and the constraints that our clients feel, and they know what works and what doesn't work.

00:21:04:15 - 00:21:27:18 Lauren And so they help even inform the human truths in our campaign. And so I think if you also think about marketing as just part of the value proposition of your organization, and you think about marketing in partnership with the business, it also stops being such a hard sell because it is truly in partnership with, rather than one function or another function doing different things.

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:51:22 Alison But it also goes back to, you've been in the business, you've had PNL accountability. And when I am asked for advice from marketers at all levels, it really is, get in the business, be responsible for a PNL, understand how the business works, and it will make you a much better marketer. You will build a lot more credibility and accountability with your colleagues across the organization as well.

00:21:52:00 - 00:22:00:03 Alison You mentioned you're in the messy middle of your transformation. So what's working well, and what are some of the unexpected obstacles or surprises you've encountered?

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:26:01 Lauren The messy middle is the best part. And so I will say we are having a lot of fun because this is where you have the most license to test, to learn and explore. And that is probably the first thing I'd say that is going really well. I am very fortunate to have an incredible team. They are driven, they have growth mindset and really both feet in on this transformation.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:51:00 Lauren And that is everything. Because you can teach any skill, but you cannot teach curiosity, passion and drive. And I really do feel like every day we wake up and we're focused on progress. You can see that come through in the fact that our upskilling programs have near perfect attendance. And so that is the heart of transformation. And I will say, I truly just feel honoured to be part of this team.

00:22:51:00 - 00:23:16:13 Lauren And so that's where all of it starts. And that's what helps you get through the messy middle. Along with seeing the signals that it's working. And so the first part of that is that we are learning there are many channels that B2B can thrive in and reach your target audience, and that's been really energizing and motivating for our people, because we're able to build our own playbook and we are able to innovate in a really effective way,

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:38:15 Lauren when you're starting to see the data show that whether it is engagement, whether it is reaching your target audience, whether it is things like leads, that the things that you're testing are actually translating to great results. And so we talk all the time about how we don't want to be part of sort of the stagnancy of the B2B marketing industry.

00:23:38:15 - 00:23:59:07 Lauren We want to break rules. We want to do things differently. And so seeing the results is really motivating and validating. And then the other part of that is the signals that we're actually hearing from clients. And so the results and the feedback is promising. Part of what we are looking to do is be seen as an extension of the value proposition of Deloitte.

00:23:59:09 - 00:24:22:08 Lauren And so we want to be able to bring valuable insights and expert thinking and different perspectives from the field to our clients in engaging and consumable formats. And so we've had clients reach out to their partners from our business about the podcast episodes they listened to or the content they saw them featured in and sharing their appreciation or sharing

00:24:22:08 - 00:24:44:20 Lauren I learned something, or I didn't know that you did that or I actually could use your help on that. And so that really validates the performance data we're seeing and signals that we're on the right track. In terms of what we have learned the hard way, I'd offer two things. The first is around just ensuring that you are consistent and very repetitive.

00:24:44:22 - 00:25:07:13 Lauren You, as the leader, might say something 15 times, but it actually only goes to certain audiences or certain individuals on your team once. And so ensuring that you are just consistent and repetitive is important, especially because there is so much change as you are progressing and evolving and optimizing and testing and scaling. There is so much that does change.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:34:16 Lauren So ensuring that you are consistent on things like your mandate or things like the strategy and the fixed parts is incredibly important. And if I could go back, I probably would ensure that I was doing that more at scale. So that everybody was getting those consistent messages throughout versus maybe those just reaching some. And then the other thing I would offer is based on something I heard recently, actually, that was "you don't know what you know."

00:25:34:18 - 00:26:04:11 Lauren And that's important because if you're designing things, you're going to be making you know, and maybe assuming that that's common practice for everyone. And so ensuring that you have cross-functional groups, just gut checking things along the way, or ensuring that you have feedback loops built in as you're managing through any change in process, digital channel execution, reporting, whatever that might be.

00:26:04:13 - 00:26:19:18 Lauren That is also really critical. And so those are probably the two things that I would reflect and say, I probably could have caught on a little bit sooner to make sure that I was making it easier for everyone and ensuring that we were really productively moving through our transformation.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:35:05 Alison I love the twist on the line - typically it's "you don't know what you don't know", but I love the twist on "you don't know what you know", and when you're having conversations across the team, across your organization, you can't, often we can assume, well, if I know it they must know it. So that that's a really good light bulb moment for sure.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:54:00 Alison The other part that really resonates is the power and the need for repetition. There's some great research that says the average person needs to hear the same message on average seven times before it sinks in. And when you're the person responsible for saying it, you're thinking, oh my god, how can I possibly say this again and have them not understand it?

00:26:54:01 - 00:27:04:12 Alison So it's a really good level set to remind yourself. With all the ways we're bombarded with communications, we really do need to hear something seven times for it to really, truly sink.

00:27:04:14 - 00:27:21:21 Lauren I think all of us can relate to that as well, because there's nothing better than consistent messaging and consistent leadership. And especially in an industry that is changing so rapidly, you already have to embrace change, and you already have to know that the best thing to do one quarter ago might not be the best thing to do anymore.

00:27:22:01 - 00:27:33:03 Lauren So at least if you are consistent in your strategy and your direction and the things that matter most, and you're extra repetitive in those, I think we can all relate to how helpful that is.

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:58:13 Alison Absolutely. Now, Lauren, you've transformed your team's relationship with business partners and very much moved away from a service provider to a truly strategic partner who's co-creating rather than seeking approval. So you've touched a bit on this, but it's such an important topic and relevant topic for our listeners. I'd love you to talk a bit more about how you facilitated the transition, and what advice would you give to other marketers looking to elevate their role?

00:27:58:15 - 00:28:23:02 Lauren It's a great question, Alison, but full kudos goes to the team because they are showing up every day with expertise and credibility, and that is what it takes. I will say though, I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg for us. And so as we continue to build and progress and drive results, we will be seen more and more as the powerhouse that this team is.

00:28:23:04 - 00:28:54:03 Lauren But there are a couple of things that we were very intentional about as part of this transformation that did really, really help us. And the first is just building that infrastructure. And so I've mentioned it before, but upskilling our new go to market, digital and audience strategy, tech enablement, AI, templates, we really put in the work so that we could show up and be excellent so that when you meet with marketing, it is a strategic, professional and value-add experience.

00:28:54:05 - 00:29:20:02 Lauren And we continue to work on that every single day. And so that's the first pieces that once you have that infrastructure, once people are clear on what it is they're doing, what the outcome of those interactions are, then you continue to just show up really well to your business, and that earns and demands respect. The second piece is just ensuring that your team is empowered to be confident and have fun when they're working with the business.

00:29:20:04 - 00:29:43:23 Lauren It is really easy to feel intimidated when you are working with such deep subject matter experts in their fields. And obviously, that is our experience at Deloitte and I'm sure for many others. And so we have to remind ourselves that, while they're experts in their trade, we are also experts in our craft. And marketing has become a technology- driven, data-driven function.

00:29:44:00 - 00:30:08:08 Lauren And so while we don't understand everything that they're saying, they also don't understand everything that we know about marketing. And so we've really encouraged our team members to have the confidence to say, "I don't understand that, tell me more." Or "I'd really like to understand it from this angle." Whereas when you are maybe a bit more intimidated and trying to show up like, no, I actually do understand everything about your business,

00:30:08:10 - 00:30:27:10 Lauren you're not going to be able to get to the meat of it. And then that prevents great marketing, because if we don't understand what it is we're marketing, how are our clients possibly going to understand that? And as marketing, you are reaching hundreds of thousands of people with your messages every day, which is a scale that nobody else in the business has.

00:30:27:13 - 00:30:45:18 Lauren And so it is really important that you just have that confidence to ask questions and have dialogue and have a little bit of fun while you're at it, so that everybody walks away feeling like that was a great conversation and you walk away clear on what it is you needed to learn. And then lastly, clear and collaborative swim lanes.

00:30:45:20 - 00:31:09:18 Lauren So business, risk and control partners in marketing have to be operating in a trio. And one of the big shifts that we moved from as we look to be more of a strategic advisor is seeking knowledge and not opinions. Sometimes what's being discussed, it is the marketing expertise or it is a brand risk as opposed to a regulation or compliance risk.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:38:17 Lauren And so if the business wants to provide a perspective on the headline or the format or what have you, that is sometimes an area we have to hold the line on and say, hey, we've got the the data and the rationale and the strategy that justifies the approach that we're taking. In the same way that we would not pretend that we should be the ones to advise on the sharp insights in the perspective or the framework, or tell them, I don't think you should actually be consulting to your clients in these ways.

00:31:38:18 - 00:31:56:00 Lauren And so it is about ensuring that everybody understands and is open to having dialogue, so that you can get to the best outcome possible. But sometimes that does mean us holding the line on where it is that we own that decision, or where we have the value and the expertise versus the business or the control partners.

00:31:56:06 - 00:32:11:03 Alison That's outstanding feedback and advice. Now, I'm very blessed to have senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I end every episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice that you would offer to people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:32:11:05 - 00:32:33:22 Lauren I would say the most important thing is to be a capability collector. Especially in an industry like marketing that is so multifaceted across brand and integrated marketing and creative and digital and tech and data, I think as many capabilities that you can collect throughout your career, it makes you more well-rounded. And even those that are deep in a craft,

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:57:18 Lauren like my background, is more the digital marketer. If you still get enough understanding to be dangerous in the other areas, it will make you more well-rounded whatever depth or breadth that you have. And so I think just ensuring that you're very intentional about collecting capabilities as you go, asking the questions, doing the research, being proactive, that will help anybody get ahead.

00:32:57:20 - 00:33:17:00 Alison It's always been great advice in marketing, but when we think about the speed with which our profession and our consumers are evolving, being a capability collector and having that as a core skill that you possess will only bode well for anyone in this profession today and in the years ahead. So, Lauren, thank you. It has been an absolute delight.

00:33:17:01 - 00:33:22:04 Alison Definitely a highly informative and insight-rich conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time.

00:33:22:06 - 00:33:28:21 Lauren Thank you for having me.

00:33:28:23 - 00:40:16:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.