CMA Connect

Are you curious about how agency branding is evolving? On this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes the founder and CEO of FUSE Create, Stephen Brown. Stephen describes the rebranding process that transformed into Fuse Create, where creativity comes first. He strongly suggests that agencies prioritize building the brand they want to become and encourages professionals to build their brands alongside their agencies. Stephen also reveals how industry awards are crucial in agency branding, driving team motivation and attracting new clients. Stephen also highlights the importance of company culture in an agency's success.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:17 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:19 - 00:00:48:07 Alison In today's episode, we will explore the importance of agencies making their brands a priority and also discuss how agency branding is evolving. Similar to that old proverb that the cobbler's children have no shoes, agencies are often so focused on building their clients' brands that they don't take the time or invest the resources required to build their own. And just as it is for clients, this lack of focus on investment can be highly detrimental.

00:00:48:08 - 00:01:15:19 Alison It's also an amazing opportunity for the agencies that do consistently make their agency brand a focus. Joining me today isStephen Brown, an agency CEO who attributes their focus and investment on their agency brand as one of the key reasons why they have been thriving for 22 years. That's an absolutely remarkable accomplishment in a highly competitive environment. After a successful career with large multinational agencies, Stephen Brown founded FUSE Create in 2003.

00:01:15:21 - 00:01:44:05 Alison Tenacity, vision, commitment and passion for the business have been the driving force behind Stephen's marketing and advertising career. They're also clearly key to why he's thriving as an entrepreneur. With his extensive experience in brand, direct, interactive, database, promotional and exponential marketing, Stephen has the learning needed to create, strengthen and grow brands across a wide range of categories. Throughout our discussion, Stephen will share his experience on the role

00:01:44:11 - 00:02:05:09 Alison agency, brand and culture have played in building his business, including what's worked well and some lessons that were learned the hard way. We're also going to talk about how agency branding is evolving and how it can be different for independents, multinationals and large agencies. The agency world, like every aspect of the marketing profession, is evolving quickly, and we're clearly at a pivotal time

00:02:05:13 - 00:02:10:01 Alison with the latest merger announcement. So this is a very timely topic. Welcome, Stephen.

00:02:10:03 - 00:02:14:10 Stephen Thank you very much. I appreciate, appreciate the opportunity to join you today.

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:22:15 Alison Stephen, I'd like to start by hearing what led to you making your agency brand a priority when so many of your peers fall victim to the cobbler's children problem?

00:02:22:20 - 00:02:43:22 Stephen Truthfully, it's been an amazing 22-year ride. This building, an agency from the ground up with my partners and my team. We did not always have the right view towards branding, especially, you know, if you think about any person who starts a business, your fixation to be at the beginning, this is natural, keep the client happy. Keep the client really is the goal.

00:02:44:04 - 00:03:02:16 Stephen And so if I look in the early years of the business, we didn't have a strong enough grasp on what we really need to do from a branding perspective. So I attribute it to a couple things. One is perspective. When you start a business, you learn as you go. No one teaches you how to do these things. So I did see, I had a chance to see some things that worked and some things that didn't work.

00:03:02:18 - 00:03:21:05 Stephen But I'd also say the agency world has dramatically changed, and much of it for the better. It's a great industry, but I don't know if we, I don't know, I don't remember as a youth in this business, the agency's brand, the name was important, but the actual amount of marketing we did, I don't remember it ever being to the level that

00:03:21:07 - 00:03:47:07 Stephen I feel we need to do now. So it is partly, you know, partly tenure and partly just the changing landscape which has made FUSE Create, really reinvent itself, but also reinvent how we brand ourselves. In the, I can give you a bit of the journey that we've been on. I think the big mental shift is, is to separate your business and look at it like a client and give it the time and the resources that you do

00:03:47:08 - 00:04:08:07 Stephen a client. Your cobbler shoe thing is absolutely true. When you're spending so much of your day looking at your client's business and building their websites and building their brands, building their campaigns, you're forgetting your own. So the only way to change that is we had to, like, remove ourselves almost from our own brand and look at our brand and do a deep dive on what's working, what's not.

00:04:08:09 - 00:04:26:19 Stephen And so in 22 years, you know, this really started about seven years ago. And that was just like a client. We started with, you know, the strategic, the strategic planning phase, which was the deep dive on our business, and the deep dive on our business seven years ago is, we were in trouble. We had some problems with the business.

00:04:26:21 - 00:04:54:16 Stephen We were a good, safe agency, and good and safe is not the space you want, in the competitive Canadian market in advertising and hyper competitiveness of Toronto. So we had to do that very cold, hard look at ourselves and say, okay, we've got some definite strengths, some good things, but we need to change dramatically. And so first step was build the brand house.

00:04:54:16 - 00:05:12:03 Stephen So just like we would do for clients. And not build the brand out of who we were then, but build the brand house of who we want to become. And that in doing that and building that brand house of what you, what we wanted to become really then illustrated where the gaps were. And the gaps for us was our brand.

00:05:12:04 - 00:05:40:19 Stephen What did we stand for? And what we did not stand for is a strong enough creative contender in this business. So that started a whole journey. I won't go through the whole journey. We talk about how that affects the brand, but the biggest, the biggest thing was, is a reshuffle of the whole business to being creative first, and being much more creative and how that positioning comes to life, both from internally but then externally to the world.

00:05:40:21 - 00:06:04:17 Stephen So it started with some structural changes as far as we brought in Steve Miller or ECD, and he was amazing at coming in and, you know, really drawing the line in the sand. So here's a, here's a strategy. But now we take the strategy and make it happen. You know, first week in front of the whole company, the line was drawn clearly on a presentation, which is, we are a creative first agency starting today.

00:06:04:19 - 00:06:29:15 Stephen And that, won't go into the shock and awe, the shock and awe, needed it, we needed it. But a third of the company just were like, "Yes. Finally." A third of the company was "I've heard big declarations before. I'm gonna hold back on my belief on this," and a third of the group was, "No, we're not, we're, this agency or that agency." But part of branding is have your conviction and stick with your story and stick with your plan.

00:06:29:15 - 00:06:49:05 Stephen And so we stuck with the plan. And from there, Steve and the team that we built really started to rebuild the agency to the brand we wanted to be. Now, how that comes across is how we got to there and how we've gotten to where we are today. And it's been a lot of advancement is really there are some structural things behind that.

00:06:49:05 - 00:07:18:20 Stephen So first and foremost, the name, we used to be called Fuse Marketing Group. There is no creative in the word Fuze, in the words Fuze Marketing Group, and also redirected to what we were in our origin. But that's not the company we're trying to be today. So Steve and Team really just rehauled the brand. Even like, Fuse was great, but FUSE Create, put it, declare it right in the name, and then from logo design to all, it really comes down to positioning about how we are setting ourselves up.

00:07:19:00 - 00:07:40:11 Stephen And this all came across in our brand book. Our mantra internally is turn heads. It's, it's been working incredibly, really to just make sure, are we when we're looking at our client work, when we're when we're looking at our own work, are we able to make the consumer or the target of any sort turn their head and notice what we are communicating. And, you know, just pride behind that,

00:07:40:11 - 00:07:58:19 Stephen a lot of energy behind that, the right type of, conviction we needed to, to do a significant change to the business. But then out of that. So, so now we have the brand, the name change. We now have this real sort of call to action - turn heads. But now we have to get this to the market.

00:07:59:00 - 00:08:29:09 Stephen And if I look at what we did there, I mean it's structural, and it was structural how you structure the business, but also how we then would build it out. And so the structural one was, for years I would do the marketing and PR and my business partner, Garo would do the marketing, the PR. But Steve took it, owned it, but also we put a full time body, an amazing woman named Vanessa behind him to make sure that we had 100% dedicated resource to the brand of FUSE

00:08:29:09 - 00:08:49:23 Stephen Create. And so if you look at a really simplified version of how this came together is sort of four pillars that we were working on all the time for our brand. So one would be, you know, buzz, PR awards, things that will actually get the industry and clients and people like that to notice us, to turn heads and see FUSE Create differently.

00:08:50:01 - 00:09:13:00 Stephen Another one was really around knowledge-sharing. So how are we creating whitepapers or discussion documents or, we have these client engagement sessions called FUSE field trips. But how are we sharing the knowledge that we have of the industry? That's another pillar. People and culture. None of this is built, on its own. It's amazing to the people who build this,

00:09:13:00 - 00:09:33:12 Stephen so share our team, let our team be out in front and let them be the face of FUSE Create, not 1 or 2 people, but multiple people. And then, well, it's not really a strategy, but it's more of a tactic, making sure we're always on. So not just when you have a campaign or not when you're just launching a new thing or a new hire, but constantly be creating content.

00:09:33:12 - 00:09:52:10 Stephen And one of those three pillars I just mentioned that keeps us engaged, keeps our name out there, keeps our SEO scores high, all the various things that we need to be doing to make sure that we're building our brand. All of this was under the goal, it's not about trying to get a direct correlation between if I spend this, I'll get this,

00:09:52:10 - 00:10:10:21 Stephen it's to make sure we're getting the calls. That we're getting the calls from our current clients who are happy with the work, but they're also proud of what they're seeing about us. It's alsothat, very critically, it's that we're getting calls from brands that maybe wouldn't have called us before. And thirdly, it's we're getting calls from talent who wants to work a FUSE Create.

00:10:10:23 - 00:10:20:23 Stephen And so I can summarize it in a minute or the few minutes that took. The reality is that's a probably six year journey that we've been on to get us here. And it's been an amazing journey.

00:10:21:00 - 00:10:48:19 Alison So I love your candour. As a founder of the organization, seven years ago, when business was soft and struggling and you had to look internally at what was working, and what wasn't, how hard was it as a founder to see what wasn't working about your baby? And how did you sort of manage that internalization of, this isn't what I'd hoped it would be at this stage in its career, while continuing to motivate the team?

00:10:48:21 - 00:11:06:04 Stephen You know, when you look at the hindsight, maybe I don't think it was that hard. I'm sure it was pretty hard. Actually, you know, it was tough. And part of that toughness was the evolution of the business over those years. And, you know, we were much more of a digital, you below the line agency in our origin, and the line has all been blown up.

00:11:06:04 - 00:11:25:15 Stephen So part of it, part of it was just the evolution. I think part of it was also, the evolution of the founders, and myself being half of the founders. At the time there was three of us. You know, accepting that the business is changing and you need people on your team that are stronger or better or more diverse in what they do.

00:11:25:17 - 00:11:44:21 Stephen And so when you start the business, it's kind of like the founder's syndrome sometimes is, it all has to rest on my shoulders. And it was part of partly breaking through that, which actually I think I found quite easy because all of a sudden I realized, it's expensive, but hire, build a team that's incredible talented. And it's a lot more fun.

00:11:44:23 - 00:12:02:07 Stephen And also allows you to do a lot more, but it was a clear reckoning that we had to have. And the, I can also say one other thing. I have had over my career, really good clients and people who you become close with and friends with, and they will tell you, well some will tell you what you need to hear.

00:12:02:09 - 00:12:18:03 Stephen And I had one client give me very direct input that I needed to hear about the business, along the lines our creative product. Because sometimes you see it, but you don't really want to admit it. And sometimes you need to be literally slapped across the face, but you need some type of punch to hear it. And I heard it.

00:12:18:05 - 00:12:36:12 Alison That was a phenomenal gift that she gave you. And good for you for being open and self-aware enough to actually take the advice and action it. You're managing through massive change. And you highlight that there was a third of your team who said, "Thank God, at long last, let's go," a third that were "Yeah, I've heard this big rallying cry before and it didn't manifest in any real change."

00:12:36:12 - 00:12:45:06 Alison And then a third that were saying, "No, we don't want to stand for that." So how did you motivate the skeptics and then the people that absolutely saw a different future for FUSE?

00:12:45:08 - 00:13:07:02 Stephen We focused on the group who was most excited and leaned a little into some who were skeptics. And whether we did it or they did it, removed the third that were thinking, we want to be, they wanted to be a different company. I can't turn you to, I can't tell you to go along. If you don't think this is the journey you want to be on, then you're not going to want to be on the journey.

00:13:07:05 - 00:13:37:05 Stephen And that's fine. And if we fast forward that one third, who was, no our something else is not here, the rest got motivated pretty fast because we kept to the story. We showed the progress of changing the brand. Like we announced this before we had even started any of the brand rebranding stuff, but we kept coming back to, listen, we're amazing at storytelling in business, so we have to also bring that storytelling to our town halls and into our internal one-on-ones, and into our communications.

00:13:37:05 - 00:13:55:05 Stephen So this is a journey we're on. And then they started to see proof points. They started to see the work get better. Then they started to see this big unveiling of a new brand. By the way, we did that six weeks into a pandemic. We said we just keep going, and it actually gave us something to work on because we were a little late during that pandemic for the first year.

00:13:55:07 - 00:14:21:17 Stephen But you start to see quickly that, oh, I say you, the team started to see quickly we meant it. And that's the authenticity, if a brand is going to be successful it has to be authentic. And then they started to see the the rewards of it. So, you know, if I look at, if I look at, you know, key indicators of things I have seen, I, I have never seen FUSE Create, with such strong client retention numbers, staff retention numbers.

00:14:21:19 - 00:14:33:22 Stephen And then there's growth, which we can talk about at some point. But, so the proof doesn't happen in year one, but you can at least give them indications that we're working towards it.

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:50:14 Alison Now, it's a great example of how brand building is both powerful for growing the business, but also very important for both talent recruitment and talent retention. So I'd love you to share a little bit more about, with the evolution of FUSE Create how that's contributed to both retention and talent recruitment.

00:14:50:14 - 00:15:10:11 Stephen FUSE has always been a good place to work. Nice people, a good environment, good vibe. What we needed to really do more though, was demonstrate how it's going to improve your career. Like you're going to be able to build something you're proud of here. At the same time, no one who's on the team ever wanted to remove the fun side.

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:27:05 Stephen We get to create things. We start with a blank slate and come up with these amazing things. It's it's one of the most creative, vibrant businesses in the world and I love it. So it should be fun. We should be able to laugh, we should be able to do all these things. But it's also hard work. And so Steve, I don't think he borrowed the word from someone else,

00:15:27:05 - 00:15:42:16 Stephen it's not actually a word, but we use the term possibilitarian. And that's, you know, someone who sees the possibility. Anyway, but we use it all the time, and it really is someone who - yeah, I'm motivated. I want to do this, and I can find a way instead of looking at all the barriers, because there's a million barriers

00:15:42:16 - 00:16:07:09 Stephen every time we do anything, how do we find theway? And that really came into, well, if you lead by example, if they see us seeing the possibility and the opportunity, then they, you get motivated and you see it also. It's all focused on turning heads. So we do have a purpose that gives people, you know, clarity is, we are here to create great things for our team.

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:34:09 Stephen So we often use, with our, when we're presenting to our clients, but we use it with our own team is, and it might sound simple, but it is meant to be simple, is, you know, do do great work, with great people, for great people. So the shift in that mentality was, if you'd looked at my early years of my career at the agency, I would have been fixated on do great work for clients, like, just, or just make clients happy.

00:16:34:11 - 00:16:51:22 Stephen And the truth is, if you reverse it, and this is where I thank the team so much for opening my eyes on this, so do great work, with great people. You cannot get great work by hammering or yelling or whatever. Like you have to motivate the team to be, you want to excite the team, you want to support the team to,

00:16:51:23 - 00:17:10:07 Stephen That's the culture that will deliver great work. And finally for great people, as clients. And the other thing we had to go through this journey was not all clients are meant for FUSE Create, and that's okay. But clients that want a partner, clients who want to sit down and work with you and build with you and have a two way dialogue.

00:17:10:09 - 00:17:30:01 Stephen But there are clients out there who really want a partner, who want to do great work and stuff like this. There's other clients who it's starting more from a financial perspective. How can I get my advertising widgets done as fast and cheap as possible? And there's nothing wrong with that client. That's their choice. We had to look honestly at our business and say, clients have a huge impact on our culture.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:49:13 Stephen Our culture has a huge impact on our ability to create. So we have to make sure we're also weighing with the client's culture and how they want to work with an agency, as we look at who we hire and how we look at how we put stuff. So it's interconnected. And it's been a very healthy, you know, I always say you never stop learning.

00:17:49:15 - 00:17:58:11 Stephen That was probably my biggest personal learning is understanding that symbiotic relationship between the product, the team and the client.

00:17:58:13 - 00:18:19:13 Alison It has to be incredibly motivating for the team to know that you're not just going to take any client because it's driving revenue, you're going to take a client that is a good fit, that will help them do great work and be a great team together. Now, when I think about the culture and the evolution of FUSE, what's been the role of awards in your strategy?

00:18:19:15 - 00:18:39:14 Stephen It's key. And when I was talking about those pillars of how we structure new business, I mean, it's not the be-all end-all that awards are. It's not the only strategy we have. We have a few. There's multiple ways of doing it. But awards offer us a few key things. Like, first of all, winning an award in this industry is incredibly motivating and exciting, and I don't ever want to underplay that.

00:18:39:14 - 00:18:57:03 Stephen Like, it really feels good to to be recognized by peers and by, you know, leaders in the industry that the work we're working on, is, is is effective. Now, the effectiveness we all usually know, and we're only putting those ones forward. But we know when a client, when a campaign works, when it doesn't, or when it needs to be tweaked.

00:18:57:05 - 00:19:18:00 Stephen But no, there's something about it, it's something gives us something to celebrate. It gives us something exciting to promote. But on top of that, when you look at building the brand of FUSE Create, it gives us news, it gives us buzz and attention. And so, no client has ever called you and said, show me your awards list and I'll decide if I'm going to give you work or not.

00:19:18:02 - 00:19:31:22 Stephen It's not, clients are looking, clients are very sophisticated, what they're looking for, they want to see your credentials, they want to see the work you've done, they want to see a bunch of things. The awards are a great ittle add-on. They like it, but it's not their, they're not going to choose you because you won an award.

00:19:32:00 - 00:19:57:08 Stephen They're going to make you, like they should, validate that you can do great things for their brand. But what it really has an impact on, besides what I've already mentioned, about the team and excitement and the recognition, is it really keeps your newsworthiness, your search rankings, like it gets you, gets you key things that helps get you on that list. And the list that we're always talking about is, are you on the call list?

00:19:57:08 - 00:20:29:08 Stephen Or when a brand is looking to find a new partner, are you being considered? And so it feeds part of that. The difference of how we manage things compared to what I started 30 years ago, is feeding that overall engine of content and news that keeps people thinking about FUSE Create, top of mind, which is very much like we do with clients. And so, on top of that, I do have one anecdote which I thought I'd share with you, because you are the CMA, which is, we had, I believe was at the end of 2023.

00:20:29:08 - 00:20:52:07 Stephen so not long ago, just over a year ago, we were at the CMA Awards and we had some great success with Ricola and another client. And this doesn't happen often, but I love when it does and I'll give CMA the shout out for it, is after that award night we got two phone calls within a month, both referencing the work we had done, they had seen the work we had done on one client.

00:20:52:07 - 00:21:21:19 Stephen They said we kind of want, we like what you did there, we want that for our brand. Now that doesn't normally happen, let me be very clear. But it is a lot easier to close a new piece of business when they've called you and said, we want that. So, so there's one example of where it actually has delivered tangible business, but most of the times it's about feeding an overall, it's part of your brand strategy and part of your brand awareness.

00:21:21:21 - 00:21:40:05 Alison I love that story. Thank you for sharing and I'm thrilled that your CMA Award led to new clients. So congratulations! Now you've shared some examples of successful ways you've invested and built your brand. There's always very powerful learning from what didn't work as well. So if you're comfortable, I'd love you to share some examples of things that you tried

00:21:40:05 - 00:21:44:14 Alison that, in theory, should have delivered results but in reality didn't.

00:21:44:16 - 00:22:09:12 Stephen I think the key is to really understand that, one of my key learnings has been the difference between, and recognizing the difference between brand building and business development. And while brand building definitely supports and helps business development, I think in my early days I would just think, if we do a focused effort on business development, that's going to make our problems go away.

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:37:16 Stephen And the reality is, is it's a lot easier to do business development when your brand is in a receptive position, so people know about it. People have heard of you, people are intrigued by you. It is a lot easier to get noticed or get a call back or to get a call in, in that situation versus, and so mistakes I made in my earlier part was, you know, bringing in a business development person who would do a traditional business development approach, which it's, it doesn't fit.

00:22:37:16 - 00:23:04:01 Stephen It doesn't work that way. This is a still an incredibly connected, build your brand, but build your network type industry. So I think I probably went down the path of a few, widgets or silver bullets that I thought would solve the problem with business development people without investing the time in the brand. And that's one key learning. Another would be, you know, a lot of people will talk about how you can try,

00:23:04:01 - 00:23:27:05 Stephen it's all about managing your inbound to your website is your whole business strategy. I would say for some businesses, that makes complete sense, where you want to go out to a wide net, draw people in and you can convert a lot. And it's a great business development model. We tried it, truthfully, it's a long journey, a lot of work that got us a lot of average to

00:23:27:05 - 00:23:57:03 Stephen below average leads. And by scrapping that and going much more into a PR, content, thought-leadership award strategy of just focusing on the brand of FUSE Create, in the industry we're in, that we controlled and not being so fixated on who's coming to the website and all the analytics behind it. I know this is counter to half the stuff we do for our clients, but for our industry, building our name, building our team, building our profile.

00:23:57:05 - 00:24:04:17 Stephen It was far better for us than getting fixated on a, on a digital tool to manage our business development.

00:24:04:19 - 00:24:17:13 Alison Stephen, I know we share a real passion for the importance of culture in business. And you've talked a bit about this, but I'd love you to talk a little bit more about the role that the FUSE Create culture has played in your agency's success.

00:24:17:15 - 00:24:48:01 Stephen And when I mentioned the, you know, do great work, with great people, for great people, it goes back to that middle zone of with great people. And none of what we've talked about today has been done by one person. It's all been done by the power of good, healthy culture. Now, and it wasn't easy. And if I look at my culture scores from seven years ago, the radical improvement, it's remarkable and amazing and makes me feel very proud.

00:24:48:03 - 00:25:08:23 Stephen I don't think culture is as difficult as sometimes people make it out to be. And I think it comes down to classic values. You know, treat your team the way you want to be treated. I never will ever forget being an account exec with some terrible bosses and some amazing bosses and those things you feel, I would say we we try to keep egos at the door,

00:25:08:23 - 00:25:31:02 Stephen checked at the door. I don't know, I swear it's sometimes the stuff that your mom and grandmother or parents taught you, is you bring those things forward, you can create a healthy, fun environment. And healthy fun environment doesn't mean you don't have any conflict. Conflict's normal. Good conflict, especially, like healthy creative conflict. But no, it's about listening to the team.

00:25:31:02 - 00:25:47:19 Stephen It's about engaging with the team. We really do pay a lot of time and attention to how to build a culture, and it's not a strategy for the strategy's sake. It is a strategy, a clear strategy, because we cannot create great work without a great culture.

00:25:47:21 - 00:26:08:06 Alison And having the clarity that you now have on what you stand for and what you want to accomplish is such an important part of building your culture and enabling people to say, you know, this is for me or this isn't for me. And the sooner that both your colleagues and potential clients realize it's for them or it's not, the better off you are.

00:26:08:08 - 00:26:34:06 Stephen Yeah, we lean into that a lot. We're transparent about, we're a very transparent business, but we're transparent about what's working, what's not working. But we're also transparent about, we do culture surveys and the feedback's good. But, you know, for the few who aren't happy, we don't we don't actually try to fix the company, make three people happy, we're keeping the company focused on the 67 who are delighted and, or, fairly happy.

00:26:34:06 - 00:26:53:05 Stephen Like, I can't make, not everyone is delighted. But you know, we know. We know. We can feel the buzz. We can feel the pulse. And it's the understanding that hard work can also be motivating, but constant hard work is not motivating. And how do you manage all the different levers that require for culture?

00:26:53:07 - 00:27:07:23 Alison And you're so right that letting three people dilute the positive culture for 67 is a fool's game for sure. So from a Canadian and global perspective, what agencies do you think are shining examples of making their brand a priority?

00:27:08:01 - 00:27:30:11 Stephen I have the, I have this amazing opportunity, as an independent agency, we are part of Worldwide Partners. It's a global network of 90 agencies, all independent from around the world, 50 countries. And we as a collective own the network versus a network owning us. In doing that, I get to meet great agencies, and I also get to see what's happening in a lot of other markets.

00:27:30:12 - 00:27:50:11 Stephen And so there's a, so I follow a lot of agencies. And, you know, I learned from Simon Sinek many years ago, the term "worthy rivals", so really just pick some brands or some teams or some agencies out there who really motivate you and make you excited versus worry about your direct competitors in your own market. And so there's a few that I follow quite a bit. In London,

00:27:50:11 - 00:28:07:02 Stephen I've been fascinated with Uncommon, you know, came out of nowhere a few years ago, and I think they've already sold or sold 49%, but they've you know, their approach is very different than ours. In New York, Giant Spoon, just the work they're doing. It's really motivating. They do, like us, we do a fair bit of experiential work. They do a fair bit of experiential.

00:28:07:02 - 00:28:26:20 Stephen So I get I get motivated by what they're putting up there and how they promote themselves. And then I would say in Toronto and Canada, there's quite a bit, there's a lot of really strong, amazing independents. It's fascinating to watch and I love it. You know, everyone from Rethink to Zulu to West123.

00:28:26:20 - 00:28:47:06 Stephen Like there's just there's a lot going on, and and that's in case where you might be competing against them. Doesn't mean I'm not, you know, they're amazing rivals. They make us strive to be better. So I like, I like following, I like to see what we're doing. I like to see what's happening. It's healthy. It's a healthy thing to look at.

00:28:47:08 - 00:29:07:09 Alison So, Stephen, this has been a great conversation. You have an absolutely enviable and certainly a very long standing agency career. So before I let you go, I would love to close off today's discussion by having you share the top advice that you would give to an agency professional who aspires to follow in your footsteps, especially those that might have entrepreneurial ambitions.

00:29:07:11 - 00:29:39:00 Stephen Sure. And you know, I don't take that question lightly. There's a bunch I could probably go into. I would say the biggest one, and I don't know if I was consciously as aware of it when I was young, but your personal brand and your business brand are so interconnected. And at some point along my journey, I figured out, I watched Trish Wheaton, who was my boss, and Wunderman and a couple other bosses, and I just said, wow, they're managing both their brand, which is an extension of their business brand and the agency's brand.

00:29:39:02 - 00:30:01:18 Stephen So I think, I don't know if people always understand just how critical your brand is. And so when I look at how we've built the business, it is not my brand, it as a collective of five, six, seven, eight people's personal brands aligned with our business brand. And that means, you know, do good, be good, be out there.

00:30:01:18 - 00:30:26:23 Stephen But, you know, get involved, get away from just the screen and go out and meet people and connect with people. And it's both enriching for your career, and your brand, but it's also good for your own personal network. And that halo effect is, it builds a brand for the overall agency. And what I've learned is that there's some people get nervous about this, leaders who get nervous because they're like, well, if they're promoting their brand, they're going to get poached.

00:30:27:03 - 00:30:47:08 Stephen Well, that's a short view of it. If you're, if you're giving them the the autonomy to build their career, build their brand, if they're building their career with you, they should build their brand with you. You will benefit from that. And yes, people leave. That's the nature of all business. So instead, celebrate the power you as a group can do of building your personal brands.

00:30:47:10 - 00:31:06:18 Alison That is great advice. And in a profession where we are incredibly busy, it can be very easy to defer that and not make it a priority. So thank you for the very important reminder that we all need to make our personal brands a key part of our career success, but also the businesses we represent. Stephen. Thank you,

00:31:06:18 - 00:31:08:20 Alison it's been an absolutely wonderful conversation.

00:31:08:22 - 00:31:15:19 Stephen Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. And great seeing amazing things at the CMA these days.

00:31:15:21 - 00:31:28:12 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Curious how the CMA is advancing and futureproofing the marketing profession? In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Alan Depencier, Chief Marketing Officer, Personal & Commercial Banking and Insurance at RBC and CMA Board Chair. Alan discusses why he got involved with the CMA, joining the Board, advancing the profession, the accomplishments he's most proud of as CMA Board Chair, the latest membership benefits, and his advice for building a career you can be proud of. Tune in to gain insights from one of Canada's top marketing leaders.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:07 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:09 - 00:00:45:10 Alison After a very busy and rewarding January, the macro environment and U.S. tariffs are certainly creating a more challenging business environment. There's no doubt that we have a bit of a rollercoaster ride ahead. The reality we all need to keep in mind is that the U.S. absolutely needs Canada. We are the top export market for 36 U.S. states and 2.5 billion in trade crosses between our countries every single day.

00:00:45:12 - 00:01:02:23 Alison Canadians need to stand up for ourselves. Every dollar we spend is a vote. It's a vote for the kind of economy we want and the future that we believe in. On a happier note, I'm very pleased to welcome Alan Depencier, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, to our podcast today. We're going to discuss all that we have planned for the CMA.

00:01:03:01 - 00:01:38:01 Alison And Alan's also going to share a bit about his journey and why he's taken such an active role volunteering for our association and the marketing profession. Alan was elected to the CMA board in 2019 and has contributed significantly as a member of CMA's Member Engagement and Human Resources committees. He's also chaired the Finance and Audit Committee, and served as the Board Vice Chair before his appointment to Board Chair last May. Alan also played a pivotal role in the creation of the CMA NXT program, which helps university and college students bridge the gap between post-secondary education and starting their professional life in marketing.

00:01:38:03 - 00:01:58:13 Alison In addition to his outstanding contributions to the CMA, Alan has a very inspiring career in marketing. He's held senior marketing roles at RBC for 20 years, including the past seven serving as Chief Marketing Officer for Personal and Commercial Banking and Insurance. Prior to joining RBC, he managed consumer packaged goods brands and spearheaded the growth of a startup venture.

00:01:58:15 - 00:02:00:10 Alison Welcome, Alan. It's great to see you.

00:02:00:12 - 00:02:03:05 Alan Hi Alison, thanks for having me join your podcast today.

00:02:03:07 - 00:02:11:05 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share a bit about what attracted you to get involved with the CMA years ago, and more recently join the CMA Board.

00:02:11:07 - 00:02:33:12 Alan That's such a great question. Well, years ago I was asked to help organize the first Client Experience Conference for the CMA, and that really was my first real exposure to the CMA. You know, I really enjoyed the opportunity because I had an opportunity to bring together industry leaders to shape conversations around client experience. And it's such an important part of the marketing mix back then, and even so today.

00:02:33:14 - 00:02:52:21 Alan So over the years, I stayed involved because the CMA plays such a critical role in driving marketing excellence in Canada. More recently, I joined the Board because it felt like the natural next step. It's a chance to give back. It's an opportunity to help shape the future of the industry and support the next generation of marketers. But beyond that, it actually makes me a better marketer in my day job.

00:02:52:23 - 00:03:03:01 Alan The networking, the insights, the industry conversations helps me continue to grow and try to stay ahead of trends. It's just been such an incredible journey over the last few years as I've got more and more involved.

00:03:03:03 - 00:03:12:22 Alison Well Alan, I owe a huge thank you to whoever got you involved in the initial events you've given, contributed significantly to the CMA and also our profession, so thank you for that.

00:03:13:00 - 00:03:13:21 Alan You're welcome.

00:03:13:23 - 00:03:17:07 Alison I'd love you to share a bit about how the board and CMA staff work together.

00:03:17:09 - 00:03:33:07 Alan Absolutely. You know, the first thing I'd say is the CMA has a relatively small management team. So as a Board, we kind of get to wear two hats. There's the governance side, which is the traditional role of a Board, which helps guide strategy and oversight. But we also have the opportunity to lean in and support management when they need help.

00:03:33:07 - 00:03:49:00 Alan And especially as a marketer, we love doing that. And I think sometimes we lean in a little too much. So I think, Alison, you keep us in check on that one. So whether it's sharing a different perspective or brainstorming solutions, I think the Board can really help out management as needed. There's a real sense of collaboration on this Board with management.

00:03:49:05 - 00:04:07:14 Alan I'm really fortunate to sit on a Board that has such a broad set of expertise and experience, but more importantly, has a passion for the industry and helping to shape its future. One challenge, though, as I mentioned, is that we have a number of marketers on the Board, so we naturally have lots of ideas. But with a lean team, prioritization is key.

00:04:07:15 - 00:04:17:03 Alan We have to focus on what's going to have the most impact for the industry and its members. It's a dynamic and rewarding experience, I know as I talk to the Board in my own personal experience.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:44:14 Alison I can absolutely attest to the incredible passion, the amazing ideas that come from our shared discussion with the Boards. And the good news is, when maybe getting a little too deep, you're absolutely open to that, "Okay guys, let's prioritize and pull back a little bit." So it's a great collaboration and we have really good healthy debate. And I know that everyone around that boardroom table and everyone on my team is fully committed to doing what's in the best interest of future-proofing our profession.

00:04:44:16 - 00:04:48:14 Alan That's great. Well, you keep us in check as needed and pull us in more if you need more.

00:04:48:16 - 00:04:54:19 Alison So Alan, from the Board's perspective, how has the CMA helped to advance the marketing profession in 2024?

00:04:54:21 - 00:05:14:09 Alan You know, the CMA is really the only place where the full marketing ecosystem comes together, and that really leads to healthy, robust debate, and these exciting discussions around important topics and issues facing our profession. One of the great ways that happens is through events. You know, we have lots of events that are really focused on priority topics that our members care about most.

00:05:14:14 - 00:05:31:14 Alan And those can come to life in virtual events or they come in in-person events. Many of them are free or as part of your corporate membership, so I highly encourage you to take advantage of those. We also launched our inaugural CMA Marketing Week back in 2024. It was a huge success and one that we're going to build upon in 2025.

00:05:31:16 - 00:05:54:01 Alan And when I say "we", really I'm looking your way, Alison, because it's your team that does all the great work. Another incredible part of that is the CMA community continues to grow. We had over 56 new organizations join us in 2024: from Pizza Pizza; Cineplex Media; General Electric; HubSpot; Special Olympics; Doctor Oetker; and Peloton, just to mention a few of the new members.

00:05:54:03 - 00:06:17:22 Alan And of course, we ended 2024 with the always amazing CMA Awards Show. We had the highest number of award entries this year, ever, and it was great celebrating the incredible creativity of our profession along over a thousand marketers and agencies at the gala. Another way we're advancing the profession is really how we future-proof the profession through a number of vehicles. In our research,

00:06:18:06 - 00:06:40:03 Alan we see that members and marketers rated the future of marketing as the thought leadership topic, closely followed by emerging trends and how technology advancements are impacting marketing. The CMA councils and committees are just an incredible source for thought leadership to stay ahead of where the profession is going across a wide range of topics, whether that's client experience, creativity, brand, insights, just to name a few.

00:06:40:05 - 00:07:02:20 Alan We have over 300 senior members in our councils and committees contributing to important discussions debate across the future profession. What other association could bring together 300 senior marketers and experts on these topics? And one really close to RBC's heart is helping to nurture the next generation of marketing talent with the CMA NXT. It's just another way we're future-proofing the profession.

00:07:02:22 - 00:07:26:12 Alan This program bridges the gap between post-secondary school and a successful marketing career. As part of CMA NXT, the association hosts virtual career nights and most recently had over 600 students from across Canada on the last virtual event. And of course, this podcast is just another way the CMA is helping to future-proof members and marketers in a new, exciting vehicle like podcasts.

00:07:26:14 - 00:07:48:23 Alan Another way we're advancing is really around professional development. Gen AI is certainly a hot topic in 2024, and CMA helps members and marketers navigate this important area and just, in a number of ways. First one is we create an on-demand generative AI certificate course to complement our other generative AI training sessions. It's proven very popular. The CMA has an AI committee creating thought leadership and guidance for members.

00:07:49:01 - 00:08:13:17 Alan Another thing we've been doing is the association's Evolve the Charter Marketer program by making it much more on-demand so marketers can learn on their schedule and at their pace. The CMA introduced new advanced standing pathways for the CM program. One of the pathways provides advanced standings for recognized folks with formal education or substantial marketing experience. The new career experience path is for marketers with eight years of progressive experience and diverse marketing experience.

00:08:13:19 - 00:08:37:10 Alan And then on the education side, if you're a graduate with a marketing degree or diploma from an accredited Canadian university or college, people who qualify for these new pathways have a streamlined course requirement to obtain their CM designation. And of course, DEI continues to be a top priority for the CMA. We completed our fourth annual study back in 2024, and it showed the marketing profession is making progress, but we still have a long way to go.

00:08:37:12 - 00:09:06:03 Alan One exciting program within this space is the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, otherwise known as DMSC. It's a really important new initiative the CMA launched in 2024 that addresses the needs of both diversity and up-skilling the marketing profession. The DMSC program is in partnership with Palette Skills. It is funded by the Government of Canada. The CMA, along with our training partners Growclass and Jelly Academy, have up-skilled over 1200 Canadian marketers and helped the majority secure their next job.

00:09:06:05 - 00:09:25:15 Alan 80% of the graduates are from underrepresented groups. This program has created a very strong talent base of up-skilled marketers, ranging from junior right through to the VP levels. So if you're looking for some talent and have a couple of roles that you want to fill, it's a terrific resource. Employers who hire graduates can also benefit from a $5,000 government grant.

00:09:25:17 - 00:09:42:22 Alan Just a huge kudos, Alison, because I know you did a lot of work bringing that program to market in partnership with Palette Skills and the government and our other partners. And finally, the Voice in Marketing in Canada is all the advocacy work we do on behalf of he profession. It's such an incredible source of pride. The advocacy efforts cover a broad range of topics.

00:09:43:00 - 00:10:03:08 Alan In the last few months, the CMA has spoken out against the proposed TikTok ban; how the digital services tax is negatively impacting business; and why marketing should be an eligible field of study for post-graduate work permits. And these are just three recent examples. The CMA has met with all political parties recently. We hosted the Canada's Privacy Commissioner for a fireside chat at our fall event.

00:10:03:09 - 00:10:16:08 Alan We've written op-eds and have worked closely with other business associations and key leaders on these important topics. So that's just a little bit of how we're advancing the profession, but I'm sure we could talk the entire podcast on all these things, Alison. But I'll cut it short there.

00:10:16:10 - 00:10:34:21 Alison Well, Alan, I love the fact that you say "we" because you are absolutely a crucial part of this, as are our Board and the amount of volunteers that we have from across our membership that are actively raising their hand and participating, we could not do a fraction of what we accomplished last year or in the coming year without that level of volunteers.

00:10:34:23 - 00:10:38:05 Alison So it is absolutely "we', and not just the CMA's team.

00:10:38:07 - 00:10:39:18 Alan Well thank you.

00:10:39:19 - 00:10:47:20 Alison Now it's a long list, so this next question might be a little tricky to answer. But as Board Chair, what accomplishments of the CMA Board are you most proud of?

00:10:47:22 - 00:11:10:18 Alan Well, I promise I won't restate everything I just went through, but, it's hard to just pick one thing. But there's a couple that kind of stand out. And like any good marketer, how do you measure success? It's just not a laundry list of activities. So we we have put in some incredible, KPIs that we monitor. And I think the first one is, our Member Net Promoter score

00:11:10:18 - 00:11:33:13 Alan significantly increased this year, which is telling us we're meeting and even exceeding our member expectations. And I think secondly, we've seen strong growth in new members. Both of these are just an incredibly great sign that CMA's relevance and impact is on the, is heading in the right direction and in a great spot. That being said, both the Leadership and the Board see much more opportunity to build upon this momentum in 2025.

00:11:33:14 - 00:11:42:08 Alan So just a huge congratulations on it, these incredible achievements. And, it looks like a bright future as we look forward to 2025.

00:11:42:10 - 00:11:58:23 Alison Well, right back at you on the huge congratulations. So as you called out, we've got great momentum. None of us are going to slow down anytime soon. We really have a lot to do to continue future-proofing the profession and marketers. So what do you see as some of the key focus areas in the year ahead?

00:11:59:01 - 00:12:18:13 Alan In 2025, our focus is really building upon the momentum, as I mentioned, of these incredible 2024 accomplishments. That being said, we have some terrific new membership benefits that I'd love to just spend a couple of minutes highlighting because you spent so much time trying to bring more value to to all our members. Firstly, we're expanding and introducing new CMA councils in 2025.

00:12:18:13 - 00:12:40:04 Alan So we're bringing together members to share thought leadership on public relations, product marketing and much more. Secondly, we're expanding our national focus on in-person gatherings, including a roadshow, so our members across Canada can come together in person. I think this is just one thing we've been talking about at the Board for a while, is we'd love to have much more of a national presence with the CMA going forward.

00:12:40:05 - 00:13:03:06 Alan Thirdly, all CMA members will benefit from free access to 25 CMA events, plus members will receive substantial savings of up to 80% on other events. That includes everything except for the CMA Awards Gala. We're also launching the CMA Mentorship program, which is exclusive to and complementary for all our members. Learning is also key to future-proofing your career and ranks as a top priority for members.

00:13:03:08 - 00:13:28:19 Alan Yet finding budget for learning can be challenging. So, Alison, you and your team are introducing significant member-only discounts of 50% off our CMA training programs, certificate courses in the Chartered Marketer program. We're also creating the CMA CEO Young Marketers Advisory Board of rising stars from across the marketing ecosystem. This volunteer board will work closely with me and advise the CMA and our profession.

00:13:28:21 - 00:13:50:10 Alan And finally, we're introducing regular CMA socials for marketers in the first phases of their career to connect, have fun, and grow their networks. Which I'm super excited and I hope you'll invite us old people as well, Alison, to these fun events. And finally, knowing that the economy is still a challenge for many organizations, and to your point, the recent news on tariffs, you'll be happy to hear the CMA has been holding firm on membership rates this year

00:13:50:10 - 00:14:18:13 Alan in 2025 to help ease the pain a little bit. A number of our colleagues in the marketing profession are currently in transition and need our support. So we've also introduced a one-year individual affiliate program that gives marketers in transition access to select individual CMA benefits at a manageable cost. And in May, we're building upon the strong success of last year's inaugural CMA Marketing Week with an expanded offering and new ways for our community to come together during the 2025 CMA Marketing Week.

00:14:18:15 - 00:14:38:12 Alan The CMA is starting 2025 also in a brand new home, which we think is going to be an incredible new home for all our members to come visit us. And in case you're interested, we're at 145 Wellington Street West in Toronto. Anyways, it's going to be a super exciting year ahead and can't wait to see the progress throughout the year, Alison.

00:14:38:14 - 00:14:46:09 Alison Thanks, Alan. So another tough question. If you could only pick one or two things, what do you most looking forward to in 2025?

00:14:46:11 - 00:15:06:23 Alan Oh boy. There's so much to be excited about in 2025. I guess I'm really looking forward to building upon the foundation you and your Leadership team have created. And I think what's most exciting is the agility that the CMA has kind of established over the last year in terms of really evolving and responding to the, the rapidly changing dynamics in the marketing industry.

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:25:08 Alan So I think that's the piece I most look forward to as who knows what 2025 is gonna look like. You start with the best plan, but things pop up. Last year was like the TikTok ban or you know, we've got tariffs coming out now. I just think it's super exciting to see our the organization really respond to this

00:15:25:08 - 00:15:34:07 Alan on the advocacy side, as well as bringing out new tools and resources to help our members deal with, you know, the dynamic world of marketing and the world we live in today.

00:15:34:09 - 00:15:47:13 Alison Now, when you have an absolutely enviable career, and I know our listeners would love to learn from your wealth of experience. So before I let you go, I'd love to hear one piece of advice that's been key to your career success that you'd like to share.

00:15:47:14 - 00:16:03:16 Alan It's always a great question. I guess if I had to bring it down to just a couple of simple things... start with your passion points and your core skills. If you know what they are, and you really lean into them, I think the most successful careers are really built upon the intersection of what you're great at and what excites you.

00:16:03:18 - 00:16:30:11 Alan And when you focus on your strengths and you really apply them in the areas that energize you, opportunities naturally happen over time. At the same time, you really want to stay curious and always be willing to learn. What I've seen is the best careers of all because people embrace change. You kind of explore new ideas. You take some smart risks, and by stepping outside of your comfort zone, whether it's a new role, an industry or a new challenge can really lead to incredible growth.

00:16:30:12 - 00:16:49:23 Alan And it's about building a career that's both fulfilling and future-proof. And finally, most importantly, be your authentic self. Success isn't just about skills. It's about bringing your unique perspective and values to everything you do. When you stay true to yourself, the right opportunities always follow, and you'll be super happy in your career.

00:16:50:01 - 00:17:10:22 Alison That that is such great advice. Thank you. And I also want to say a huge thank you to you. You've got such a busy day job, yet you have carved out a significant amount of time for many years to be actively volunteering and supporting the CMA in the marketing profession, and now stepping into the chair role. It really is like having a second job.

00:17:10:22 - 00:17:29:16 Alison And you have been such an incredible partner to me and to the CMA staff. And I also want to extend that thank you to our full Board. We are so fortunate to have an incredibly talented and diverse Board, that really become core partners to everything that we achieve. And it is very much, we're achieving this success together.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:33:04 Alison And we couldn't do it without you. So huge thank you!

00:17:33:15 - 00:17:49:21 Alan Thank you so much. You know, as I said earlier, you know, it's probably the one Board that I've sat on and probably sit on where I actually get more out of it for my day job. So I think when you do that, you know, it's a win-win. And I look forward to the, to the next year ahead.

00:17:50:01 - 00:17:54:06 Alan And thank you to you and your team for everything you've done over the last year. And look forward to an exciting 2025.

00:17:54:12 - 00:17:56:12 Alison Absolutely. Thanks Alan!

00:17:56:14 - 00:17:58:21 Alan Thank you.

00:17:58:23 - 00:18:11:13 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

Are you curious about the next trend? Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, explores Accenture's Life Trends 2025 report with Brent Chaters, Managing Director of Marketing Transformation at Accenture. Together, they explore trends like hesitation, the dignity of work, AI tools, the impatience economy, and how these trends apply to the Canadian market. ReadAccenture's 2025 Life Trends report here: https://www.accenture.com/us-en/insights/song/accenture-life-trends

00:00:01:16 - 00:00:24:09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:11 - 00:00:43:14 Alison I'm thrilled to have Brent Chaters joining me for today's episode. Brent's the managing Director of Marketing Transformation at Accenture, a global leader in consulting and technology services. In this role, he works with some of the world's top brands to help them innovate and adapt to the ever-shifting marketing landscape. Brent's also on our CMA board and chairs our Finance and Audit Committee.

00:00:43:16 - 00:01:14:13 Alison Brent brings a wealth of experience and insights to this conversation. It's also very timely since Accenture just released their latest Life Trends 2025 report. The annual report offers a window into people's evolving behaviours and attitudes towards a world around them, covering major shifts in business, technology, as well as society. The report this year is focusing on five emerging trends, and the trends explore the cost of hesitations as people are seeking out a healthier, more balanced relationship with technology, both for themselves and the next generation.

00:01:14:15 - 00:01:31:10 Alison The report dives deep into these trends and what they mean for businesses who are trying to navigate an increasingly complex landscape. We'll be unpacking the key trends from the report and discussing how they vary in the Canadian market, as well as getting Brent's take on how businesses can both adapt and thrive. Welcome, Brent. It's great to have you here.

00:01:31:12 - 00:01:33:11 Brent Thanks, Alison. Excited to be here.

00:01:33:13 - 00:01:45:00 Alison So, Brent, I'd love you to tell us the origin story for Accenture's Life Trends report and share some of the unique insights that it provides to help marketers and businesses understand how consumers behaviours and expectations are changing.

00:01:45:02 - 00:02:10:18 Brent So the the Trends have been something that we've run for well over a decade. Effectively, what we look at is, what are the things that are happening today, like immediately right now that are impacting societal norms, and then kind of how that is extracted out into both customer experience, customer behaviour, customer activation, and, you know, effectively it's the things that are going to drive the threads of, you know, where we are going to go on a global societal level.

00:02:10:20 - 00:02:29:21 Brent They run across 22 different markets. We talk to about 24 to 25,000 people every year. It allows us to look at both the global macro trend. And then I can also look down into like what's happening by country. That's kind of how does Canada differ versus what, you know, we see happening at a, at a global level or across other countries as a whole.

00:02:29:23 - 00:02:54:01 Alison That's a massive report. And to your point, I'm excited to dig into where Canada is aligned with the other 25 global markets and where we're different. And in reading the report, I really found that the trends collectively point to a significant rebalancing of digital and physical experiences. And linked with that, a really growing emphasis on trust and authenticity and the need for more human-centred approaches in both business and technology.

00:02:54:03 - 00:03:05:08 Alison So that's going to present some great opportunities, but also some challenges for brands in figuring out how do we adapt and innovate and respond to how consumers are changing their behaviours and expectations.

00:03:05:10 - 00:03:22:22 Brent That one is actually interesting, because if you look at each of the trends through the last 3 or 4 years, we've seen a heavier shift, more towards kind of like these physical experiences. If you kind of go back to like the big things that happened in the last 4 to 5 years - Covid, probably being the biggest trigger that drove that when everybody kind of got locked down.

00:03:22:23 - 00:03:42:22 Brent It did force like a reconnection to like your physical spaces and rethinking what physical versus digital meant to people. But, you know, I'd say this year you're kind of, I think you're kind of starting to see a lot of that all culminate together in terms of what we've seen kind of happening. I call it the more smaller areas, like there used to be like 1 or 2 trends.

00:03:43:00 - 00:03:51:11 Brent This year, it almost threads through all five trends of like this drive for like a more physical engagement and what that means to people at a more humanistic level.

00:03:51:13 - 00:04:09:13 Alison So I'd love to start out with the cost of hesitation, that your report is certainly showing that online experiences degrading and hesitation is becoming almost a reflex as people are getting so bombarded with content and really can't trust what they see. So what's your take on how this trend is affecting businesses?

00:04:09:15 - 00:04:34:14 Brent This trend itself is really about authenticity. I think a lot of it's being driven by, I don't want to say Gen AI, but like how accessible Gen AI has become. You know, for $20 a month, you can subscribe to a Gen AI tool or multiple sets of tools. You can create your Gen AI stack for a very nominal fee. And then with that you can produce, you know, an absurd amount of content very rapidly that feels very authentic.

00:04:34:16 - 00:05:04:17 Brent And then what this is driving is, it's creating questions of people saying, you know, is this a scam? I see this, see this t shirt? I see these shoes. It feels like it's meant for me. But then I go out and I start to Google and there's no website presence or there's no ratings and reviews or there's nothing else about this organization, you know, and it's, it's gotten to a point where it's really hard to distill the difference between, is it real and authentic, or is it something that just popped up overnight and it's a scam as a whole?

00:05:04:19 - 00:05:28:02 Brent You know, the other thing that we're starting to see is that big organizations are leaning into Gen AI in ways that I'll call maybe a little too lazy as well. You might have heard about things called like, Gen AI hallucination. So effectively, what that is, is, you know, your models sit there and they're, they're directionally right. But like for some reason it's come up with this like absurd sort of concept or idea.

00:05:28:02 - 00:05:45:03 Brent You know, the example of glue being used on pizza instead of pizza sauce, for example. It's, you know, it's a liquid, it's the right thing. But like, it's, you know, there's something that you would want to eat, nor should it be there. You know, and those are things, those are ones that are very easy to identify. Other times you might see something that is not as easy to identify.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:03:17 Brent It might not be as easy to understand that it was not something that is grounded in truths or factual data points. And so with that, you know, you're starting to see larger organizations that have to be aware of, like, how they're working through that content that's also produced as well, because, you know, if you think about it, at the end of the day, it's about trust, right?

00:06:03:18 - 00:06:25:22 Brent Big brands, little brands, no matter what you're trying to do, earning trust is hard. Losing trust is easy. And so, you know, poorly executed, AI-driven experiences are going to drive to that trust being broken. And when that trust is broken, trying to rebuild it again becomes a lot more difficult. The two biggest industries where people are looking for authenticity - health and finance.

00:06:25:22 - 00:06:56:06 Brent I don't think that's a surprise to a lot of people, but people are looking for, you know, authentic experiences across health. And, you know, historically, if you look at it, the health industry, if you think about all the different vitamins and pills and whatever else that get pushed out there, this industry of both medically-prescribed and non-medically prescribed brands and you know, they're just pushing content and they're looking to get as many people to utilize that. In the health area, because people are much more aware and they're able to self-diagnose,

00:06:56:06 - 00:07:17:21 Brent and we'll talk about some of this a little bit later on too, is they're going to these digital channels first. And so they're looking for it, you know, authenticity. And is this really something that is going to be helpful for me or not. And is there misinformation is critical. And then, you know, there's a saying that you want to be able to be informed about your finances, but you don't want to divulge what your personal, you know, finances are.

00:07:17:23 - 00:07:36:12 Brent So, you know, again, people looking for authentic ways to connect with their financial advisors, with their banks, what they should do financially. There's a great concern of, do I have enough to retire? You know, this is an ongoing thing with inflation, with everything else. Are people able to save? And if so, you know, how are they doing that?

00:07:36:12 - 00:08:01:18 Brent But people looking for authentic ways to engage with brands as a whole, you know, and I think the last the last big thing too, is Canadians specifically, is where Canada differs, 59% of Canadians, almost 60% of Canadians, feel that they're getting constant advertising of some sort or another. compared to globally, it's about 48%. So Canadians are just being inundated with a lot more advertising that is targeted.

00:08:01:19 - 00:08:28:07 Brent And, you know, we're trying to distill down what is real and what is not. You know, and on the flip side of that, Canadians typically are not identifying the deep fakes as strongly. So 28% of Canadians identify deep fakes, whereas 32% globally are identifying the deep fakes. So, you know, we're kind of seeing more advertising as Canadians, but we're having a harder time to just to distill down what is authentic and what is real versus what was like AI-created or targeted.

00:08:28:09 - 00:08:46:19 Alison So in this low trust environment, what are some of the recommendations you have for businesses to maintain trust, or if they're in the unfortunate situation of having lost trust, as you called out, it's so hard to win it back. What would you recommend as potential ways to maintain that trust in this type of environment?

00:08:46:21 - 00:09:07:20 Brent Well, what we're looking for is organizations become more humanistic in their approach, rethinking about how you're using your physical experiences. You know, if you're a bank, what was the opportunity you have with a branch? You know, telcos are probably the highest in terms of digital engagement, you know, and they're constantly rated as one of the lowest for customer satisfaction in terms of like customer care.

00:09:07:22 - 00:09:35:20 Brent So, you know, finding ways to start to get reengaged from a truly human perspective becomes really relevant. The other things that are probably going to start to emerge over time is you're going to see things like associations that are going to offer authenticity to something. So, you know, this message was validated and approved through X Association. And it's, you know, genuine content that'll probably be tied back to QR codes or blockchain that sits on the back to be able to validate those things.

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:59:02 Brent But they'll be tied to an approved, trusted, you know, authority to say that something is genuine or not as well. So, you know, I think there's new technology that's going to arise outside of this. You don't have all the perfect answers today. But, you know, those are the things I think are gonna start to come out that will start to change how organizations think about how they're building content and how they kind of reinforce what is authentic or not authentic.

00:09:59:04 - 00:10:14:19 Brent You know, the last thing to think about, too, is as easy it is for you to be a good marketer, who are the bad marketers, or who are the bad actors out there as well. Like, I could very easily and quickly stand a marketing machine and put out a lot of false information about a competitor as well. Right?

00:10:14:19 - 00:10:33:10 Brent And so doing that, I can actually go out and proactively damage your brand a lot more. So, you know, I think your other question was kind of, how do you repair that brand? Yeah, I think it's, it's making sure that you're you're creating those authentic, real-time connections with people. And, you know, it becomes a lot harder of a lift than what we've we've traditionally been used to.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:43:08 Brent That said, we used to be able to do this in the 70s and the 80s, in the 90s, before we had all this access to technology. So, you know, you almost have to look to the past to think about how you want to manage to the future.

00:10:43:10 - 00:10:46:11 Alison And how can some of the tools we have today help with that?

00:10:46:13 - 00:10:47:06 Brent Yeah.

00:10:47:08 - 00:10:54:01 Alison Not an easy question to answer, but definitely the tools that are creating the situation can also be part of how we solve for it.

00:10:54:03 - 00:11:15:01 Brent Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Every organization should be thinking about how they're utilizing the tools today. There's there's definitely advantages, and organizations need to think about how they're adopting those tools. Part of the problem, and we see this, you know, as we talk about the dignity of work a little bit later, part of the problem is organizations aren't investing in their talent.

00:11:15:01 - 00:11:40:03 Brent They're not investing in their people. And so there's kind of this disconnect that's happening right now, what's happening from a work perspective to enable your your talent to have the right skills and then being able to like, activate against that. So I think, you know, right now the biggest gap that organizations need to think about is like, how do I upskill my organization to be able to utilize the tools in the right way and, and become a little bit more proactive in the investment of that workforce?

00:11:40:05 - 00:11:55:14 Alison Let's actually jump there now because as you highlighted, the dignity of work and employee motivation levels is another key trend. And they're,they've been quite shaken by business pressures, tech advances and evolving human dynamics. So I'd love you to share more insights about this trend.

00:11:55:16 - 00:12:27:10 Brent So the dignity of work, you know, you kind of look at what's happened over the last 4 to 5 years. You kind of went from a very high talent demand. So, you know, looking for, especially digital talent, AI, data analytics type talent. And there was a huge demand for it. And then, you know, as the economy and the big macro factors around us start to change, you saw this shift towards back where organizations were controlling more of the jobs and now people have shifted more towards what's important to me - work life balance.

00:12:27:12 - 00:12:48:21 Brent But job security is number two. Whereas if you went back four years ago, there was a lot of opportunity from a job perspective. Now people are kind of thinking more about like, what's my job security? What's happened, though, is that organizations haven't shifted towards taking care of their talent. We're expecting the investment into training to decrease anywhere between 14 to 15% over the next couple years.

00:12:48:23 - 00:13:07:16 Brent We're seeing a decline in people feeling that they've got the right skills to do the jobs that they need to do, you know, and I think those are like the big, big signs out there that if organizations aren't investing into their people, it's a lot harder to go out and hire those skilled people than it is to build them up.

00:13:07:16 - 00:13:22:23 Brent And so if you're not doing that, are you going to be ready for the future? The second thing is from like, from an emotional perspective, employees are recognizing and seeing that this isn't happening. And so they're starting to feel, you know, like I'm just a cog in the machine. I, you know, you're going to replace me, especially Canadians.

00:13:22:23 - 00:13:45:21 Brent Canadians have this sense, like 13% more Canadians then globally feel that AI is going to take their jobs away. So there's this this heavy focus on, you know, as, as Canadians that, like, Gen AI is not a positive thing. Here is something that is going to take my job away. It's going to replace me. You know, there's this shift of thinking of like, I'm a creator to I'm just a manager of workflows.

00:13:45:23 - 00:14:10:00 Brent You know, people are missing being that creative, that that ability to express the pride in the work that they're doing. And so, you know, as we look at the dignity of work, you kind of have, you know, two things that are happening. There's the education, the re-skilling of talent. I also think that's a very heavy Canadian thing. Canadians as a whole are feeling that there's less, less focus on their personal growth and career opportunities compared to globally.

00:14:10:00 - 00:14:29:18 Brent So there's about a 10% gap there again. So, you know, Canadians are generally feeling less invested into. And then you also have to think about how that's driving culture as a whole. And you know, I think organizations are spending more time trying to manage when and how you're showing up, like counting badge swipes. Did you tap into today?

00:14:29:18 - 00:14:46:14 Brent Are you in the office today? Are you physically here today? The employees are feeling that we're all adults. You should trust me. And by telling me that you have to count if I'm tapping in or not, you don't trust me. My trust with you is broken. Therefore, why should I give you, you know, any any more of my time than I need to?

00:14:46:16 - 00:15:07:01 Brent Which means I want, I want better work life balance. You know, the employee workforce is kind of starting to fight back. And that's driving, that's that's driving the overall cultural behaviours as well. And then, you know, the last thing is, as people are not seeing the career advancements, they're starting to, you know, wonder like am I stagnant in what I'm doing or you know, what is what is my next career growth?

00:15:07:03 - 00:15:26:03 Brent If you're not investing, investing in me from an education perspective, if there's no opportunity for me to move forward, I'm going to start to feel frustrated and stuck. And so, you know, I think you're going to start to see a lot of employees where, you know, we're already seeing this in like cultural satisfaction surveys, where year over year it's declining.

00:15:26:08 - 00:15:50:23 Brent And now we've got to start to think about, like, how are we going to start to reengage with teams and with talent? And that all starts at leadership. Right, like this isn't something where we need to go like how do we get, you know, the individual contributors. You have to start with leadership. Because right now the perception is leadership is more focused on dollars and cents than on employee satisfaction on, you know, am I building up my team and my skills and my talent?

00:15:51:00 - 00:16:05:18 Brent I'm just focused on like, did I hit this quarter's, you know, numbers that I need to hit and you know, that that culture. And I think this is right. I think that that culture is set at the top. And so it has to carry down from the bottom. So there's a reeducation that has to happen across leadership.

00:16:05:20 - 00:16:25:22 Alison Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. And when you talk about the leadership role, what leaders really need to appreciate is by supporting their employees, by building the culture that will ultimately lead to the business outcomes and the sales results that they need. Not doing that with your employees will ultimately, in the not too distant future, have quite a negative impact on your business success.

00:16:26:00 - 00:16:48:01 Alison One of the things that really surprised me when it comes to the key trend around dignity of work, was the depth of the concern. So I was shocked that 45% of employees don't currently believe that their organizations see them or treat them as a person. They're increasingly feeling like that cog in the wheel. Are we seeing that Canada better off there,

00:16:48:01 - 00:16:51:11 Alison worse off? Consistent with the global findings?

00:16:51:13 - 00:17:18:08 Brent This is another area where, lik, Canadians are typically feeling that a lot more. You know, it's probably about 6% higher. And, you know, there's two things, like Canadians are worse off in kind of their perspective or their view on that, but also year over year the trend is continuing to go up. So on a global level, we're constantly seeing more and more people feeling that they're not necessarily valued or, you know, dis-enfranchized with, you know, kind of how they're perceived to be viewed.

00:17:18:10 - 00:17:41:22 Brent And again, like, this is a very Canadian thing, like we are we are what we call silented triggers. So Canadians, when we get dissatisfied with something, we often won't vocalize it. And so things kind of fester and they'll sit there and then eventually we're just like, okay, we're, you know, we're done and we're leaving. And so you see that happen both with like when Canadians are not happy with how they're getting serviced by by brands.

00:17:42:00 - 00:17:58:20 Brent But the same thing happens from an employment perspective, right? If, if I'm not happy, I will quietly go look for another job. I will find that job. And when you counter, my perception is going to be like, well, why didn't you do this before, you know, I decided to have something like, you only see that I have value now?

00:17:58:20 - 00:18:09:00 Brent Now that I found, you know, this other opportunity. Now if somebody asks, like, is that a great place to work at, that the answer's probably going to be no from that person because they left feeling, you know, undervalued.

00:18:09:02 - 00:18:34:02 Alison Yeah, and there's so much learning and doing the opposite of that to really engage and have employees that are valuing the workplace and it also highlights the critical need for ongoing communications within, across the organization, and really just letting that your team and staff know what's going on and what their role is, and thanking them for the many contributions that they're making.

00:18:34:04 - 00:18:53:23 Brent I think you're so right on that one, though, right? Like, I don't think we're, like this goes back to like, leadership starts at the top. And just a simple thank you, or a simple note out to people. You know, I think we we undervalue just how much people just kind of want to be acknowledged. And that comes up in this trend a fair amount, is that people just want to be treated like people.

00:18:54:01 - 00:19:18:05 Brent And the more, like, the more we use language like digital agents, you know, it has a connotation of that digital asset being something that is used like a human would be. We're calling our people assets, right? Oh, we have a lot of great assets. Well, now we're we're, you know, not making them feel like they're human. We're just seeing them as, as cogs in a machine.

00:19:18:07 - 00:19:36:09 Alison Now, you also highlighted that Canadians are more concerned about Gen AI replacing their jobs. So do you think that's also part of why Canadians are feeling the dignity of work and like they're being treated more like cogs instead of humans to a greater degree than our global counterparts?

00:19:36:11 - 00:20:03:03 Brent Probably a little bit, yes. And then there's also a little bit in there in that Canadians have been a lot slower to adopt AI as a whole. And with that, we've also been slower at educating people of what AI can and cannot actually do. And so, you know, I think I think there's a little bit of a balance of, I do believe there's a world with Gen AI, but I also think like it's a fit for purpose tool that you use.

00:20:03:05 - 00:20:19:18 Brent And we need to both educate people in terms of like how they use it and what it can and can't do. And right now, I think a lot of it is built on perception that's not necessarily backed in full understanding. But at the same time, I've also seen some organizations that have used it in like really bad actor ways as well.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:47:14 Brent And so when people see that, you know, if you misuse your AI capabilities and people see that, then that also sends a signal of like, oh, hey, you're actually thinking about like how this can replace me. And I actually don't believe that's the case. Like, I've never, as long as I have been working, I've never once gone into any organization, both when I was working client side or consulting side, where somebody is like, oh, my day is done now it's 10:00 am, and I'm going to be able to have a coffee break for the next like six hours.

00:20:47:16 - 00:21:10:04 Brent No, there's always work to do, right? So I think one of - the way I look at it is, it will allow me to clear some of that, that backlog. But we also again have to be smart because the problem is those that are the early adopters, there's this disconnect of perception of speed. So it's like, if you guys are really good at using your AI tools and you're getting your job done 2 to 3 times faster, more work is going to come to you.

00:21:10:04 - 00:21:24:12 Brent This is the paradox, right? More work is going to come to you. And so we're going to ask you to get more done. And then that's going to create this like sense of overwhelming as well. And so you know there's a capacity that people are going to be able to operate at. So we kind of have to balance how the tool is used,

00:21:24:14 - 00:21:32:01 Brent and like people's ability to to drive intake and manage what they're, what they're doing as a, as a whole.

00:21:32:03 - 00:21:46:16 Alison Now another trend from the report is the impatience economy, which certainly, when I look around me, when I think of myself, like my patience isn't probably what it used to be, and there's lots of contributing factors to that. But I'd love you to explain the trend and share where brands can fit in.

00:21:46:18 - 00:22:06:12 Brent Think of this one as like, this is like the economy of hacks, right? So everybody's kind of impatient and there's a faster way to do it. You know, TikTok has given rise to a lot of like, hey, here's a quick hack on like how to get more coffee from Starbucks. Or here's a quick hack on how to make your washroom feel two times bigger without having to do a renovation.

00:22:06:12 - 00:22:32:21 Brent Or if you're renting, here's a hack to give yourself an accent wall. And you know, there are some good hacks out there. But we also have to figure out, you know, what ones make sense and which ones don't. Because sometimes you get something and you're like, oh, okay. That like, sure, it looks nice, but 4 or 5 days or, you know, a couple weeks later or months later, you know, that nice accent wall is suddenly starting to fall apart because you used shoddy glue, or Velcro is not actually the way that you should like be

00:22:32:21 - 00:23:00:16 Brent keeping your wood paneling up. That same sort of thing starts to extract out people looking for financial hacks. How do I how do I like 3X my investment portfolio? People are looking at side hustles. How do I increase my own personal income in automated ways? You know, through the last five years, we've seen an increase in side hustles by something like 48% overall with millennials. They're bringing in another $1,300 per month.

00:23:00:18 - 00:23:24:19 Brent You know, so everyone's kind of looking for like different ways to cut corners and to get to an outcome faster. And so, you know, organizations need to start to think about, how am I going to be able to talk to to my people? I'm not going to just bury the lead in an FAQ. I'm going to help you understand very crisply and clearly how to get from point A to point B as fast as possible and the right way to do it.

00:23:24:21 - 00:23:50:07 Brent And if there's a reason that you have to take a long route there, then we've got to do a better job of explaining, like why? Like what is the difference between artisanal craftsmanship versus, you know, very quickly knocking something together and saying like, that's just as good as what I got over here, you know? And so brands especially are going to have to start to build out like why like why is this a more important process or what is different about what you're doing?

00:23:50:09 - 00:24:13:18 Alison You mentioned earlier that the two industries, when it comes to trust and authenticity that consumers are most interested in are finance and health and that makes so much sense to me. Yet, with the impatience economy, those were also the two sectors that people were looking for more hacks and were exploring riskier paths for accomplishing their health and financial goals.

00:24:13:20 - 00:24:20:17 Alison I don't know if that felt like a disconnect to you, but it'd be interesting to dig in a little deeper and understand both sides of that.

00:24:20:19 - 00:24:37:16 Brent Yeah, I mean, I think, and and I'll talk a little bit about a Canadian number in a second, but I think as a whole, everybody wants to be rich and they want the fast track to it. But at the same time, the way it comes to managing my day to day finances needs to be crisp. I need to be able to pay my bills.

00:24:37:18 - 00:25:03:09 Brent So I kind of look at it as like household budgeting. Those sorts of things are very, like very, very specific. And I need to make sure that I can, like, live off that. But at the same time, I want to be able to take any of my investments. So if I have RSPs or TFSAs or RESPs or, you know, any other investments through stock or whatever, what is the right place to put it and kind of how do I accelerate at a faster pace?

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:25:13 Brent So there's a little bit of, I think, expendable dollars versus the dollars that I need to to survive. So I think that kind of helps, at least to me, helps explain the financial one. I think from a health perspective, I need to trust my doctor. I need to have a good relationship with my doctor. But at the same time, you know, we are constantly inundated with live longer, live healthier.

00:25:25:15 - 00:25:47:02 Brent There are these shortcuts that you can get. And like that, that is something that has existed for forever. You know, if you go back, people have always been looking for like, something that they can take that gives them an edge health-wise as well. And so, you know, we know that our time here is limited, and so you're trying to maximize and make sure that you have the the best and fastest way. You go back to the 80s,

00:25:47:04 - 00:26:13:19 Brent And everybody was pushing, you know, it's easier to take a pill to for diet, for diets and fat loss, right? Now we've got needles that we can very quickly get. And you're getting like Ozempic that's like being pushed everywhere as like the quick solution as well. So everybody wants the miracle, the miracle fix for health. But at the same time, people also understand that, you know, I need to have like a certain level of trust with my doctors and my physicians as well.

00:26:13:21 - 00:26:41:15 Brent That said, where Canadians do differ is that we are actually less likely to have the side hustles, and we are more likely to engage on online gambling, as a whole. So we're more likely to look at where and how we can can double down on something where we put the least amount of effort into, such as gambling, but we don't want to do the actual work that's required to run that second or third job, as a whole.

00:26:41:15 - 00:26:51:04 Brent So I think Canadians have like an even weirder dichotomy in terms of like kind of how we do and don't want to spend our time and what we want to focus on as a, as a whole.

00:26:51:05 - 00:26:56:04 Alison And in that Canadian dichotomy, do you see some opportunities or risks for brands?

00:26:56:06 - 00:27:20:07 Brent Canadians still go to blogs and videos as their number one source, but we do it less so than globally. So I think Canadians are a little bit more likely to look across multiple channels overall instead of kind of consolidating across 1 or 2 channels. So I think organizations need to think about like, how am I kind of connecting with you across maybe blogs, videos, social.

00:27:20:07 - 00:27:40:01 Brent And then, you know, we're also seeing this rise of needing to be able to connect with people in more physical spaces as well, kind of as we talked about people wanting to get connected back to nature, I think out of home, you know, I don't think it's going to suddenly go the other way, but out of home and smart out of home advertising starts to become an interesting way of connecting with people.

00:27:40:03 - 00:28:06:12 Brent You know, if you think about when Taylor Swift came here, that was like, that was such a great physical experience that happened. There were pop-ups across the city. You know, she drove billions of dollars into the economy. But like all of that came down to like her ability to drive and engage in new channels and getting consumers to literally line up around blocks to buy you know, swag and different Taylor Swift, you know, memorabilia.

00:28:06:18 - 00:28:21:17 Brent But also people were connecting differently too, like, you know, people had the bands and they were like sharing their bands and collecting different beads and, you know, all of those things, you know? So I think that there is still this drive of wanting to connect in a very humanistic, you know, way.

00:28:21:19 - 00:28:46:06 Alison That's such a great example. Now, a fourth trend from the report is The Parent Trap. And this is about an acceleration of policies and parental activism to help establish probably much-needed guardrails around young people's online experiences. So I know from both the marketers in our audience and also the parents in our audience, they will be very interested to learn more about this trend and the possible repercussions for organizations.

00:28:46:08 - 00:29:07:08 Brent Yeah, the Parent Trap really starts to look at, you know, you've got the first generations that were raised on digital now raising the second and third generations that are coming up in a pure digital society. And I think, you know, what you've what you're starting to see is that the early digital adopters are realizing how much digital kind of took out of their lives.

00:29:07:08 - 00:29:27:00 Brent And also, you know, how easy or not easy it is for kids to engage from a digital platform. You know, you're seeing a push for being able to understand who your kids are talking to online as well. There's a heavier, you know, desire to want to understand how kids are utilizing their screen time. What videos are you watching on YouTube?

00:29:27:02 - 00:29:50:04 Brent You know, my kids love Roblox, so I want to make sure that their friends that they have on Roblox are their actual friends and not some stranger that I don't know who that is. And you know who and what they're talking about. You know, and it's interesting because like, as somebody who grew up in that in-between generation, like we grew up having like a Nintendo or a Sega, and you sit side-by-side with your friend and you played video games.

00:29:50:04 - 00:30:14:12 Brent And so, like, the kids are still playing video games, but each one has the individual screen now, instead of a shared experience. And I think, you know, this happens every generation. The older generation is kind of like, oh in my time we had this, and we were doing that, and some of that I think is coming through as well where it was like, well, I, you know, like I socialized at least I sat beside my buddy and you know, we talked and you know, we'd actually be present. Like, well, no, the kids are talking and if anything,

00:30:14:12 - 00:30:29:22 Brent like they'll sit there and they'll have their iPad on, they'll be playing their game, and then they're talking to their friends over another app. And I think they're all still very engaged. But it's a different type of engagement that probably feels a little bit uncomfortable for parents. So I think parents are looking and saying, you know what,

00:30:30:00 - 00:30:47:05 Brent what should I do? But then there's also times where, you know, very clearly digital devices are a distraction. You know, a lot of parents want, and there's a paradox in here, right? Like a lot of parents want their kids to be reachable. So I want you to have a phone. I want to be able to track where you're going because I can track you with the phone.

00:30:47:05 - 00:31:09:08 Brent And, you know, I understand, you know, it's it's easy to do those things, but at the same time, I don't want you to spend all your time on that phone, scrolling through things. So it's also, it's it's having an impact on the kids. But parents are also thinking about like their utilization of screen time as well. Do I want to be doomscrolling all day, or am I being more mindful about where and how I'm spending my time?

00:31:09:10 - 00:31:27:12 Brent You and I were talking about this, but like I went full, I just I dropped my cell phone off on my charger over the holidays, and I did my best to not touch it. And like, I could go days without like having my phone. And the first day was hard. But then after that it was kind of like, you know, I, I felt much more connected with my family.

00:31:27:14 - 00:31:47:12 Brent I didn't have to always have my phone. We were going out. We were doing more physical activities. And, you know, I think parents are also looking at that same sort of thing. And it's like, if my kid's sitting in their bedroom isolated from the family, how do I start to get them more engaged as well? And so this generation that is coming up is being more informed by their digital experiences.

00:31:47:12 - 00:32:13:08 Brent You know, we see it come out through through gender. Girls are more likely to be exposed to sexually inappropriate images at a young age. And so, you know, girls are having a heavier self-confidence issue because of that. And so, you know, in one way, we kind of went from like, well, let's not airbrush anymore to, okay, now we're going to like, this is a girl who doesn't even exist that we've like, manufactured that that becomes the ideal beauty state.

00:32:13:08 - 00:32:35:13 Brent So, you know, there's a, I think there's a lot of work to do from both genders in terms of like both how kids are communicated to and messaged to. And we're starting to see a lot of countries are putting forward legislation to put guardrails in terms of both, like how content is being utilized to target kids and guardrails in terms of like both when and where technology can and can't be used, as well.

00:32:35:15 - 00:32:43:04 Alison I think there, brands have a business and societal obligation. And I also see a role for regulation for that, for sure.

00:32:43:08 - 00:32:45:06 Brent I would totally agree.

00:32:45:08 - 00:32:56:17 Alison The final trend from the report is social rewilding, which is definitely an intriguing name. So I'd love to have you share what it means and how social rewilding is changing opportunities for businesses.

00:32:56:19 - 00:33:18:10 Brent You know, within Canadian society, we see an even bigger, interesting we we have an even bigger dichotomy. Quebec has a much more higher propensity to move towards physical social connections than we see across the rest of the country as well. So there's, you know, some cultural differences that say, you know, even within the Canadian society in terms of kind of how and when we want to, to engage.

00:33:18:12 - 00:33:48:04 Brent And then, you know, the last components are as people think about sports engagements, physical events, going out and making memories. If you think about the gifts that people are getting, it's no longer about like getting like a little widget or whatever. It's about getting an experiential pass to something, right? So if it's like going out to a hockey game or getting to go out to a physical event that somebody was interested in doing, it's more about like getting together in a meaningful purpose.

00:33:48:06 - 00:34:15:04 Brent And wait, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about Taylor Swift. I think you saw that kind of amplify it up again across both Toronto and Vancouver. You know, she was, she was creating ways for for getting people to come together by sharing their bracelets, by talking about their joy for Taylor. I remember sitting on the train coming into the city one day, surrounded by all the Swifties and like they all knew, they didn't know each other, but like they all had this like common thread and they were all excited.

00:34:15:04 - 00:34:45:01 Brent And you would have from like, little kids who were, you know, excited to see Taylor to to people who would probably be older than you'd think Taylor's demographic is. But they all had this, like, same excitement for it. And they were all excited to like, talk about their favourite songs, their their favourite Taylor memories, you know, exchanging bands, exchanging information. Like, you know, we're I think as a society, we're craving for for that desire to have more of these, like physical connections.

00:34:45:03 - 00:35:04:04 Alison Now it's so very true. Over the holidays, my sister's birthday, instead of doing a bunch of gifts, we met a spa with some of our nieces and nephews and us, and spent the day outside treating ourselves and had great conversations. And it was so much better than any physical gift we could have given.

00:35:04:06 - 00:35:19:02 Brent I've got two daughters and both of them were super excited to get their nails done. And they they did a couple dates, a couple dates with mom, and then they did a couple dates with their friends, and they loved doing the whole, the whole experience. And now they're like, well can we do that, you know, every week? It's like, well, I don't know if

00:35:19:02 - 00:35:32:07 Brent this is every week thing but... you know, maybe it's something that starts to become a little bit of a ritual to be able to go out, you know, and do. And it's again, it's just a different way for the kids to be able to connect with out of having all this, this digital overhead.

00:35:32:09 - 00:35:37:19 Alison I think they should loop Dad into that. And you can show up at our next CMA board meeting with your nails done.

00:35:37:21 - 00:35:40:12 Brent I'll work on it.

00:35:40:14 - 00:36:01:09 Alison So obviously really rich learning in the 2025 study. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared. I know that there will be listeners who are interested in learning more, so we'll make sure that we include a link to the report with the podcast as well. Before I let you go though, Brent, I would love to have you answer one last question.

00:36:01:11 - 00:36:18:04 Alison You've got an incredibly inspiring and very diverse career, and you've really taken some big bets along the way. So I'd love you to share your perspective on taking chances versus playing it safe in one's career. And what's one piece of advice that you would share with listeners who aspire to senior roles like yours?

00:36:18:06 - 00:36:38:06 Brent You know right now, like I'm having a conversation with my daughter. She has the opportunity to move up into playing a higher level of hockey. When she goes out and plays with that team, she always complains about how hard it is. And so we're having this conversation about, you know, the hard things or what makes you better. So if you want to become a better athlete, if you want to become a better marketer, if you want to become better at anything, you know, it kind of comes down, to me,

00:36:38:06 - 00:36:56:12 Brent it comes down to focus and effort. And if you want to put in the effort, you've got to have something that's going to challenge you to do that. And so taking on those harder opportunities, while they might be scary, those are the things that start allowing you to become better at what you do, you know? And so I've always been fortunate enough to have people who trust me to take those things on.

00:36:56:14 - 00:37:16:05 Brent And at the same time, you know, I've always had the opportunity for people who have been able to to understand that, like, this is maybe a little bit outside of my reach but getting the coaching or the support to be able to do it. And, you know, there are other times too, where like, you just have to become your own, your own best cheerleader and say, you know, I'm going to make a sacrifice.

00:37:16:05 - 00:37:36:19 Brent When I wrote my book, I remember sitting, and I had to carve out 12 weekends to get a chapter done per week and have enough time to edit and do everything else. And that meant I had to give up, you know, effectively three months of social time to to do other things. And it was just having that that fortitude to go in and say, this has to get done.

00:37:36:19 - 00:37:48:17 Brent This is the time, this is the focus. So having that level of like focus and drive becomes, you know, very critical to be able to to take those things on. And sometimes doing less is actually more.

00:37:48:19 - 00:37:55:21 Alison That's such rich advice. And it's also very inspiring that with everything else that you've accomplished, you're also a published author. So congratulations.

00:37:55:23 - 00:37:56:15 Brent Thank you.

00:37:56:17 - 00:38:06:11 Alison So Brent, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation as I knew I would. And really rich with insights. So a huge thank you on behalf of the CMA and all of our listeners today for a great conversation.

00:38:06:16 - 00:38:14:05 Brent Really enjoyed this today.

00:38:14:07 - 00:38:26:20 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA welcomes two influential people from Google. Darren Chiu, Account Executive and Ben Wise, Head of Programmatic Media, who also happen to be the co-founders of Captivate. Together, they discuss effective psychological tactics used in marketing campaigns, from emotional appeal and scarcity to personalization and social proof. They also discuss common mistakes, active listening, understanding your audience, building credibility and leveraging storytelling.

00:00:01:16 - 00:00:24:00 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:02 - 00:00:53:15 Alison Today I have two special guests joining me who are absolutely experts in the art and science of persuasion and communication. Ben Wise and Darren Chiu are the co-founders of Captivate. It's a company dedicated to helping marketers really understand and leverage the psychological principles that drive consumer behaviour and decision-making. Both Ben and Darren have spent almost 14 years at Google. Ben also serves on the board of directors for the Daily Bread Food Bank, mentors young professionals in media and tech, and advises multiple early stage startups on sales and growth.

00:00:53:17 - 00:01:15:23 Alison Darren worked for another CMA member, Microsoft, before joining Google. He has also been recognized as an emerging leader by The Peak. In this episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of the psychology of persuasion and exploring how marketers can apply these concepts to create more effective campaigns, to build stronger brands, and to communicate much more persuasively with both their external and internal audiences.

00:01:16:01 - 00:01:38:04 Alison Ben and Darren will sh-re their insights on the most powerful psychological tactics used in marketing. They'll provide great examples of campaigns that have successfully leveraged these principles and offer some very hands on, practical advice for how marketers can improve their own persuasion and communication skills. We'll also discuss how these psychological concepts are core to career development and success in the marketing profession.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:48:14 Alison Ben and Darren have lots of great advice to share that will help marketers sell their ideas much more effectively and manage their personal brands. I'm really excited to dive in, so welcome Ben and Darren.

00:01:48:16 - 00:01:50:01 Darren Hello, Alison.

00:01:50:03 - 00:01:51:19 Ben Thank you so much for having us.

00:01:51:21 - 00:02:05:15 Alison So you both have very successful careers, very demanding, great day jobs. And you're doing this on the site. I would love you to share the origin story of Captivate and your approach to the psychology of persuasion and communication in marketing.

00:02:05:17 - 00:02:24:23 Ben So it started a few years ago, and me and Darren actually used to be on the same team. And one day Darren came to me and said, hey, Ben, can I get 15 minutes in a team meeting? There are these things I've been researching, all of that psychology that you've been using in your sales pitches with clients, that were really working, and you thought the team would, you think the team would really benefit from?

00:02:25:00 - 00:02:43:12 Ben So of course, I gave him the time and Darren walked us through a whole bunch of things. I think it was 3 or 4 really cool techniques and not just what they were, but like how to actually use them, like how to take these, you know, research concepts and put it into practice in a day-to-day environment. And coming out of that, I said like, hey Darren, I think this is really cool.

00:02:43:15 - 00:03:03:07 Ben Why don't you do something with it? Like, why don't you start a newsletter? And I think your reaction was like, great idea, but then didn't have time to do it. And then I think it was like a year after that, there was a reorg and Darren moved teams, and then because we were no longer on the same team, I figured, hey, it's not a conflict of interest, why don't we do this together?

00:03:03:09 - 00:03:22:15 Ben And that's when we started the newsletter. It started, I want to say it was March of 2023 was our first issue. So coming up on two years now. And then it's just kind of snowballed from there. So the, you know, the newsletter was how we founded. A few months in, we had a bunch of people saying, hey, we really love this content, and we've got a new sales team or a new marketing team.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:40:11 Ben We'd love you to come in and do a training. Would you be open to that? And we hadn't occurred to us but we were like, yeah, that sounds like fun. We like presenting, we like the content. And then that got good feedback. And so we, you know, constantly looking for new ways to get the ideas out there, whether that is speaking engagements, corporate trainings,

00:03:40:11 - 00:03:57:11 Ben the newsletter obviously is still the core, social video. We're trying to, we're really passionate about the idea of how you use psychology to be a better communicator, to be a better salesperson, to be a better marketer. And we're trying to get the content out there in whatever way we can, essentially. So that's kind of how we came to be.

00:03:57:13 - 00:04:00:02 Ben And I guess where we are today.

00:04:00:04 - 00:04:06:18 Alison And Darren, did you ever think that asking for that 15 minute meeting would lead to a pretty impressive side gig?

00:04:06:20 - 00:04:25:04 Darren No. So what Ben skillfully admitted was the fact that he was my manager at the time, and that's why we never got it going during that time. Because it's a conflict, seems like a conflict of interest. But what he's really trying to say that I was his favourite team member on the team, but he will lose his job if he said that. Now, now he can openly admit it.

00:04:25:07 - 00:04:28:07 Ben This is being recorded, we can't say that!

00:04:28:09 - 00:04:43:12 Darren But it was so much fun. Because I was, I didn't do is not because I didn't have time. I didn't make time. And and that's why Ben came in and say, hey, now that we're not on the same team, let's try to make time. So I'm very grateful for his mentorship, and I'm so glad that it's happening.

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:53:05 Alison That's one of the most successful outcomes of a restructure I've ever heard of, so... now, what are some of the most effective psychological tactics that you've seen used in marketing campaigns?

00:04:53:07 - 00:05:09:14 Darren I'll say a few, and then Ben, let me know if there's anything you want to add. A recent one that I've been seeing a lot on YouTube is actually a Airbnb one. It says, like the thing with hotels that they stay the same size, but your kid's getting bigger, or, this is your hotel room, but also your living room, also your kid's playground.

00:05:09:14 - 00:05:28:20 Darren And then just so cramped. But with Airbnb, you can do this and that. I thought that was a really, first of all, relatable and but also very clever because it touches on a few things that we all know. First of all, you know, it's got emotional appeal. We can all relate to some of the downside of living in the hotel, but also the idea of scarcity and exclusivity.

00:05:28:22 - 00:05:53:07 Darren But this whole unique experience that you get with personal connection with Airbnb hosts, with your own space, is very different. And also the scarcity of that. Sometimes there's only one house like this, whereas hotel, there's like, you know, I don't know, two hundred hotel rooms, and it's in this big building. So I feel like that was a very fun and clever one that we can all relate to through emotional appeal and scarcity and exclusivity.

00:05:53:09 - 00:06:15:22 Darren Another one that's been going around, I thought it was pretty interesting for a while, is actually, the Share a Coke campaign. It's the Coke bottle with your name on it. And, because Coke has been one of the most well-known brands for forever. So I feel like the one thing they do really well is that they always, constantly reinventing themselves.

00:06:15:22 - 00:06:33:09 Darren And this idea of personalization, because we all love seeing and hearing our names, they really brought it to light when they do that, but also the idea of social proof, right? People share the photos of their Coke bottle and say, hey, you had that. I don't have that. And also the idea of scarcity. Some names are more than others.

00:06:33:09 - 00:06:49:13 Darren Some names are less likely to be found than others, so people go and hunt for it. So these are really cool psychological tactics that they employ - the fear of missing out, scarcity, personalization. So these are some of the cool things that we've seen recently in marketing campaigns.

00:06:49:15 - 00:06:52:14 Alison Those are great examples. Ben, how would you build on those?

00:06:52:16 - 00:07:12:15 Ben It's hard to say which tactics are most effective, because a lot of it still comes down to, you know, how it's executed. So, you know, social proof, we know is an extremely powerful technique, extremely powerful concepts in the way that like, people interpret things, but the way you use it has to be, still needs to be unique and creative.

00:07:12:15 - 00:07:31:05 Ben There's still a human element in like, how do you come up with it? So every product in the world, every website in the world now has reviews. You know, whoever, or whoever was the first person to put a review on their website on their products, it was genius at the time, but now it's become table stakes and it doesn't stand out and it doesn't pull on it in quite the same way.

00:07:31:07 - 00:07:53:16 Ben So I think a real big element of like how you make these successful is, you have to understand the technique or the tactic and the concept behind it, but you also have to find creative ways to actually implement it. So it's not just a matter of like checking the box, you've got social proof because I put a review on these products, it's actually still maintaining that, you know, human creative element.

00:07:53:16 - 00:08:04:01 Ben And I think brands that figure out ways to do that. I think, you know, Darren, your examples, there were great ones. They're taking old techniques and applying them in new ways.

00:08:04:03 - 00:08:16:21 Alison Now, social media has certainly been a great potential accelerator for marketers and brands in doing this. Can you give a couple of examples where you've seen that really leveraged to its best benefit?

00:08:16:23 - 00:08:38:01 Ben Yeah, I mean, I mean social media especially like influencer marketing, "influencer" is kind of another word for, I think the formal research term would be like, authority. Because the influencers you follow do have a certain level of authority for whatever their, their niche or their topic is. I think a really interesting concept that works really well on social media is something called the effort heuristic.

00:08:38:03 - 00:09:06:21 Ben So sorry for sounding all like science-y. I don't like the word heuristic. But essentially it means people will take the effort that's put into something as a proxy for the quality. And I think the storytelling you can do with social media really lets you show the effort that goes into it. There's all this, like, a lot of social contact is like, you know, here's behind-the-scenes stuff of, you know, here's a movie, but all the socials are here's behind the scenes of the actors here at the work they're putting on it.

00:09:06:21 - 00:09:30:11 Ben Here's they are like training for the stunt scenes, and it really shows a lot of that effort that goes into it. And I think that's a really good way in social specifically to use that that concept in a really fun way that that resonates with, with customers, but also has that effect of showing people, God, these folks worked really hard on this product, on this movie, on this new service.

00:09:30:16 - 00:09:36:20 Ben It must be really good, because they take that as a as their proxy to understand how great it is.

00:09:36:22 - 00:09:48:06 Alison It's also intriguing to get that behind-the-scenes view too, and a better understanding of everything that goes into it, and just insights into how someone else is living and creating.

00:09:48:08 - 00:09:48:23 Ben Absolutely.

00:09:49:01 - 00:10:17:03 Darren Yeah, yeah, I would say social media really added an entirely different element to marketing, especially around authenticity and accountability. That level of authenticity was never achieved before social media. Alison, you mentioned behind-the-scenes stuff, right? Ben mentioned all these things that like, you know, all the behind-the-scenes. B-roll. It's a huge one. People want to know. Before, consumers will just see a perfect commercial right in front of them.

00:10:17:05 - 00:10:35:20 Darren And that and now social media, they almost don't care to be perfect. They want you to see they're messing up. They want you to see what's happening in the back. And then in the end, that's very human. And I think we really relate to that. And I think that level of authenticity brings a different level connection with us and our consumers and in terms of just overall accountability.

00:10:36:02 - 00:10:54:15 Darren Like you can't really get away with being a bad brand, bad products, because reviews, comments, you lose followership. And I think overall it's, I feel like it's much more tiring right now to be a marketer because there's so many, so many ways that you have to sort of cover your bases. But it's also, I think, way more fun,

00:10:54:15 - 00:11:03:22 Darren And way more interesting. So yeah, I think social media is a, is is not a whole topic. But I love the authenticity and accountability it creates.

00:11:04:00 - 00:11:10:10 Alison And you're so right that the life of a marketer, it's never been more exciting and more exhausting.

Darren Yeah.

Alison Very true.

00:11:10:12 - 00:11:19:05 Ben Yeah. There's more opportunities than ever before, but navigating through all of those different things is very complicated.

00:11:19:07 - 00:11:33:07 Alison Figuring out of all the opportunities, where do you place your bets? And yeah, inevitably when something goes wrong, it can the snowball can grow at such unbelievable pace, that how do you get in front of it and manage the downside too?

00:11:33:09 - 00:11:34:13 Ben Yeah for sure.

00:11:34:15 - 00:11:45:08 Alison So on that, there's also very valuable learning from understanding what doesn't work. So I'd love you both to share the top three mistakes that you see and how our audience can avoid or overcome them.

00:11:45:10 - 00:12:05:19 Ben So I put some thought into this in advance, and I've got my my three. I would say number one - and like if you take anything away from for people listening or watching, like if you take one thing away, it would be do not focus too much on the functional side, focus on the emotional side. People make very, very emotional decisions.

00:12:06:01 - 00:12:28:13 Ben And even if I rationalize that with some functional thing, oh, I chose this phone because the camera has a gazillion megapixels and it's got this much hard drive. And I've rationalize it with these facts. I chose that phone because I think it's cool and I like it, and it looks fun. There's an emotional element to every decision, and I think we spend so much time on, like, what is our unique value proposition?

00:12:28:13 - 00:12:54:01 Ben And here's functional benefit one and two and three and you know, eight, nine and ten. But really people are buying things or making decisions on emotional reasons. And as, as marketers we need to really emphasize that. So that's number one. I would say number two is, and this is getting into, sort of B2B versus B2C, but I think in B2C, a lot of people are like, yeah, we're we're talking to humans.

00:12:54:01 - 00:13:16:14 Ben We're talking to consumers. When you get into B2B, some people think like it's, oh, I'm talking to a company. It's this faceless corporation that I'm talking to. I should treat them as, you know, I'm selling to faceless Corporation A. It's like, well, Faceless Corporation A is actually made up of human beings. And the person that's going to decide if they should work with you or if they should buy your service or product is a human being.

00:13:16:15 - 00:13:36:16 Ben So even when it's B2B, these human ideas of the emotions and how you connect with them and how you persuade and communicate with them are every bit as important as in B2C. And we get that pushback a lot where people say, well, I'm in B2B, so so this doesn't apply. And it's like, well, the person on the other side of the table is still a person.

00:13:36:18 - 00:13:56:07 Ben And then I would say like number three for me is there are so many different tactics and techniques that we talk about. I mean, we have a, almost an infinite runway for a newsletter where we do one technique every month. And I think having a bunch of those in your toolkit lets you choose the one that is going to work best in a given situation.

00:13:56:07 - 00:14:13:21 Ben I think a lot of people will say like, okay, I really like social proof, as an example. I'm going to put social proof into everything. It's like, well, it's a great tool, but you also have to know when to use it. And not all tactics are going to work in all situations. So they'll try to force something where it doesn't fit.

00:14:13:21 - 00:14:31:17 Ben So I would say for me those the big three is - really focus on the emotional side. B2B - still humans, still still talking to other humans. We're emotional, irrational beings. And number three is like finding the right tactics for the right situation, because not everything works every time.

00:14:31:19 - 00:14:52:08 Alison Those all three are great. The everyone's a human ultimately, when we're marketing is the one that really resonates for me. And in many ways, B2C and B2B are outdated concepts, it's always B2H. We're always communicating to humans and at the core of what we're doing, would certainly make life easier. So, Darren, what would you add?

00:14:52:10 - 00:15:11:21 Darren I would just add, maybe like 1.5, maybe not all three. Because these are really good ones. I think one thing I would add is, not listening well enough. We're like, very quick to rush to get our argument across. Or when they're saying something you just think about, oh, this is exactly what I'm going to say to respond to what they're saying.

00:15:11:22 - 00:15:32:11 Darren But really just take a, take a beat and listen to what they're saying. And, you know, very often we see people go to like a presentation and we see people just go point after point after point. And, it's like pitch, pitch, pitch. Do you like it? And they don't take a second to really address what people are actually wanting or what people are actually struggling with.

00:15:32:13 - 00:15:51:05 Darren We definitely see that a lot, especially coming from really, really capable, smart people because they have they have so much information they want to get across. But it's kind of like having a conversation with someone where every sentence is an "I" in it. There's no "you" in it. Just I this, I this, I this. And I think we should flip that around. Say - what do you think?

00:15:51:05 - 00:16:08:07 Darren How do you feel about this? Does it sound good to you? Does it sound bad to you? I think that's one huge mistake that a lot of people here, and we would love to see people more just taking a step back and listening to their counterpart and really absorbing it. And even if you don't have anything good to say, at least you're acknowledging it and you're building that connection and that rapport.

00:16:09:19 - 00:16:26:22 Alison That's a great add-on. If you think like, in the most engaging meetings you've been in, it's not, when someone, no matter how great a presenter they are, are standing at the front of the room just talking at you, as when they engage you in a conversation and you feel part of the storytelling and part of the the time together.

00:16:27:00 - 00:16:27:15 Darren Yeah.

00:16:27:17 - 00:16:28:22 Ben For sure.

00:16:29:00 - 00:16:50:07 Alison So how how can you teach people to listen better? We've got lots of great, talented marketers who are listening today, and I know when you said we all need to listen better, I could definitely cite 1 or 2 times recently where I was thinking about how I was going to respond, which means I wasn't actively listening. So how do we break that habit?

00:16:50:09 - 00:17:26:05 Darren Yeah, I mean, I will share one. Alison, I do the same, sometimes I listen, and I have a perfect listening face. So one thing I have forced myself to do a lot now in conversations that matter, is I will paraphrase back and say, sounds like, dot dot dot dot. Seems like dot dot dot dot, and then just repeat it back. And I think the best thing is, if you could repeat it back to them in your own words, almost in a way that it's more succinct in the way they're saying it back, by saying it you, you make it sound like you understand them more they than themselves because they're like, oh, he heard everything.

00:17:26:05 - 00:17:37:09 Darren And then he digested it and he's repeating back to me in a more succinct way. It's a good practice. It's not easy because you have to say it back right away. But it comes easier, easier as the more you practice.

00:17:37:11 - 00:17:50:06 Alison Well, the other benefit of that is if you play it back and you didn't interpret it the way that they hoped you would at that moment in time, you're going to like they're going to be able to course correct, and that's going to lead to a more fruitful and productive conversation, too.

00:17:50:10 - 00:17:52:01 Darren Yeah, exactly.

00:17:52:01 - 00:18:09:07 Ben I mean these things are really, I think, very simple, but just hard to make a habit of doing. And I, I always laugh, like when you scroll through LinkedIn, like every fifth post is something to do with like how to be a better listener. And you think like, well, I've been listening since I was a baby. Before I could talk, I know how to listen.

00:18:09:09 - 00:18:26:19 Ben And yet so many of us, and you know, I include myself in that are not perfect at it. It seems like something that should be so easy, but it really takes a lot of that conscious effort to make sure you are doing that. And it's it's, I would say like it's a mindset of, don't take it for granted that just because you have ears means you could listen well.

00:18:26:21 - 00:18:31:10 Alison Yeah, it's like anything it's like levels of fitness, levels of listening. Like there are levels to it, right?

00:18:31:14 - 00:18:31:23 Ben For sure. 00:18:32:01 - 00:18:40:08 Alison And there are times where you can maybe get away with a more surface approach to listening and times you absolutely should be like full-on active listening.

00:18:40:13 - 00:18:41:16 Darren Exactly.

00:18:41:17 - 00:18:56:10 Alison You've got so many great examples and great advice around the power of persuasion and how to really become strong, strong communicators. I'd love you to share how these principles can apply to career development.

00:18:56:12 - 00:19:15:14 Darren I think is not too different from like, as a marketer, is you can position yourself as a brand, and a lot of the things a marketer would do for their brand will apply to you as an individual in your career. Like, for instance, one of the one of the first things a marketer does is understanding your audience.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:37:10 Darren So, you as an individual, you can do that. Know who your stakeholders are. Know who you're talking to. Know what you're trying to appeal to. Earlier, Ben talked about the importance of balancing between logic with a lot of emotional connection - do that at work. Right. Because we think coming into a meeting and coming into relationship with logic and good evidence, that's table stakes.

00:19:37:12 - 00:20:05:15 Darren That's your, that's your baseline. So always bring that to work of course. But find a psychological safety in your environment with your team. You know, just to strengthen the emotional appeal, the emotional bond between team members. So I think that's one very foundational thing everyone should do. Another thing is just build on your credibility. Like we talked about authority bias as one of our psychological principles. People put way more emphasis on the things that someone says

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:29:15 Darren if that person is perceived to be more intelligent or perceived to be higher power. Whatever they say might not be true, but just the fact that they're, sometimes taller, better looking, more successful, richer, whatever that is. So there is, you know, you have to build that credibility for yourself. So, at work, be a voice of authority, find out what you're really good at, and make sure that you are, you are having your voice heard.

00:20:29:16 - 00:20:55:15 Darren Leveraging storytelling in presentations. We hear that a lot, that is a whole other podcast, but I'm sure a lot of you have been hearing a lot about the power of storytelling. So that's one. Another thing you just say leverage things like reciprocity. Like very often we come to our stakeholders asking for stuff, but what are you offering? If you want to build a good relationship at work, if you want to appeal to your managers or your bosses, as being very supportive and helpful,

00:20:55:17 - 00:21:13:10 Darren then offer your help before you take any. OK, these are the things I can do for you. And in return, I think we could work on something else to make this better. So, quick to offer help, quick to offer support and sort of advance relationship through this reciprocity. Ben, have you got anything you want to add?

00:21:13:12 - 00:21:40:00 Ben Yeah. I mean, no, not not too specific, but I would say like, as a, as a general thing is, all the like psychological techniques that we talk about or that we write about are true of humans, which which means whether you're marketing to them, they will apply. But if you're dealing with them internally, it also applies. So if you want to be more persuasive, if you want to be more authoritative in your communications, think about a lot of these psychological principles.

00:21:40:00 - 00:22:00:09 Ben And I think, you know, Darren, you mentioned a bunch of like, reciprocity-building or authority, those kinds of things. But when you're going into a meeting with somebody, when you're going into a presentation, if you've got a coffee catch-up with the client, if you're talking to your boss in a review, think through some of those psychological principles and how you want to apply those into those conversations.

00:22:00:11 - 00:22:22:05 Ben And the more you do it, the more it becomes kind of a habit and a kind of a default behaviour. But they apply everywhere. And it's not something, as marketers, that we should think of only within a campaign. It's also how you work internally. It's how you work with other humans. So thinking about that psychological element in all of your internal stakeholders and all of those internal meetings and relationships, I would say, is just as important.

00:22:22:07 - 00:22:58:17 Alison Very great advice. So I want to build on the storytelling piece with my next question. We've all been in situations where we wanted to sell something through, not necessarily a marketing campaign, maybe it's promotion, maybe it's a raise, maybe it is a marketing campaign and where our storytelling wasn't all that successful. So I'd love you both to share a personal situation where at first you weren't successful, and then you sort of stepped back, regrouped, and were able to ultimately sell through using some of the psychological principles, that you've shared with us today.

00:22:58:17 - 00:23:23:21 Ben For sure. I mean, for me, I really think about how we, because that's what we do for Captivate, like, I really think about how we walk the walk of of what we're preaching. And so if you look at the evolution of some of our presentations or training sessions or even the newsletter, as we learn more and more techniques, we try to think about how do we infuse those into,into what we do.

00:23:23:21 - 00:23:49:05 Ben And often they're like very simple, small things. So, you know, one example was I think the first, you know, five or six emails we sent out, or newsletters that we sent out, it was like, "Hello, readers." And labeling them as as readers is one thing. And at one point I very consciously thought about, I think, well, you know, we're reading a lot about labeling and talking about the power or the emotional power of what that means.

00:23:49:05 - 00:24:08:21 Ben And we changed that to "Hello, Captivate community." Small little change. But it's if I'm going to label you as something that I think is going to be helpful for what you're about to read, being labeled as part of our community is a much nicer emotion than being labeled as a reader, right? So it's, it's finding those small things.

00:24:08:21 - 00:24:39:05 Ben Another example I would say is, you know, when after we did a whole bunch of work on, or a whole bunch of research around priming in our, a lot of the training sessions or presentations, we do, you know, we go through a bunch of the specific techniques and tactics, and we do get the priming near the end. But I always make sure that like there's there's a sentence or two upfront that is, you know, I'll often say if you find human behaviour really, really important, I think you're going to find a lot of the tactics today really useful.

00:24:39:07 - 00:24:58:06 Ben And I, I've primed them there a little bit as like people who are going to are interested in human behaviour. And if we're talking to a room of marketers or a room of salespeople, that's going to be everybody. But it kind of primes them with that label. And then, you know, I say, when we get to the end that that was part of a technique, but it shows how easy it is to build it in.

00:24:58:08 - 00:25:17:10 Ben But it's, it's a lot of those small things. And that's a lot of what we talk about is, these techniques are so powerful, but these changes that you actually have to make are so tiny. Like it's really easy to put them into use. I think those are two really basic things that we've changed, as we've done more of our own research and figure out how to, how to do it.

00:25:17:10 - 00:25:32:22 Ben But it's, it's really that mindset of constant improvement and building these tactics and techniques into the basics of what you're doing, whether it's how you address somebody in an email or how you kick off a training session.

00:25:32:23 - 00:25:48:01 Alison Those are such great examples. And the power of the small changes making it much more aspirational. When I think about being described as a reader to being part of the Captivate community, -t also took me from a fairly passive role to a very active, hands on role. .

00:25:48:01 - 00:25:48:09 Ben One hundred percent.

00:25:48:09 - 00:25:51:18 Alison So the power of language is mission critical. So, Darren, what would you like to add?

00:25:51:18 - 00:25:54:01 Ben Glad glad it's working. Yeah.

00:25:54:03 - 00:26:16:16 Darren Alison, that was a great active listening. But okay, I will give an actual example that actually that happened to me at work, during one of the meetings. So I was told by a, a sales rep that the client that I'm meeting really loves social media. And I was obviously attending the meeting on behalf of Google.

00:26:16:18 - 00:26:34:00 Darren And, so one of the first things I did is I make sure the presentation is all set up in a way that is quote unquote social media-friendly. I was I was mocking all the creative into social media format. And I also pull what they have on their social media to sort of recognize that, hey, this is working well for you,

00:26:34:02 - 00:26:53:19 Darren here's what we can do better. Effectively, what I was trying to do is just through the power of a strategic mimicry to see that, hey, I'm on the same page with you, and I understand your business. But what I didn't know, is that the client actually didn't care about any of this. After, like, you know, me, 20 minutes of showing my beautiful presentation, me thinking that I'm priming them.

00:26:54:00 - 00:27:25:02 Darren I'm on the same page. I'm strategically mimicking them. They, they just weren't on board. And this is where I think the power of active listening becomes really important. So I was sort of asking questions around, like, you know, does this not resonate with you? How do you feel about this? And eventually they said, you know, we love all these amazing metrics on social media like likes and shares and all these things, and you don't have. And like, okay, I'm like, okay, so tell me what you're using those metrics for.

00:27:25:04 - 00:27:44:17 Darren Because they're not, they're not bringing you revenue. They're not bringing you website visits. So what are you using those metrics for? I would love to learn more. And there's a saying that, oh, we love it because it's a great indication how if our marketing campaign is working. It's a great indication if our creative is working. So now I know what they truly are struggling with is status quo bias.

00:27:44:19 - 00:28:06:03 Darren They have always measured their success on how well their creative is working, and they're trying to look for that in our marketing campaign. And what we don't have is likes and shares. So I said, oh, great, sounds like - active listening - sounds like measuring your creative success is important to you. If I can achieve that with different art or other different metrics,

00:28:06:05 - 00:28:20:13 Darren how does that sound to you? And they say, okay, so they say, okay, great, tell me what you could do. So then I showed them a list of other things that I can could do to help them measure the success of a creative and, in status quo bias, we talked a lot about people hate change.

00:28:20:19 - 00:28:37:04 Darren They've always measured the things this way. And now we're trying to help them measure things other different ways. So, I think that's one thing that we need to focus on. So in this, in this scenario, we found the status quo bias. We adjusted. We showed them the how we could do, what we could do for them to make it better.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:54:08 Darren And eventually got the buy-in. So I feel like this was a series of back and forth, a lot of them a psychological barriers to jump through. But we eventually got there, just through really listening, recognizing and finding out what's stopping them from moving forward.

00:28:54:10 - 00:29:16:23 Alison Those are great examples. It's also really helpful on what you both just shared in your personal experiences, though, seeing how it's applied in real world situations really will help our listeners and myself understand more thoroughly how we can be implementing it and taking advantage of this in our lives as well. So I really appreciate you both taking time to share the personal stories.

00:29:17:01 - 00:29:35:13 Ben For sure, and I think that's such a big part of it. I mean, so much of the research that we go into, is in this controlled experiment where we had 15 people in a room and we gave them a Diet Coke, and we didn't give the next room like, okay, it's interesting, but like, I'm never in a room with 15 random people that I'm giving Cokes to, like, that's not a real world scenario.

00:29:35:13 - 00:29:55:16 Ben So, so we, you know, we say we're not academics, we're practitioners. Our job as Captivate is to take like, translate all that mumbo jumbo research, that sounds interesting, but it's not applicable and make it actually useful for you in your day-to-day role. Whether that's a marketing campaign, a sales pitch, or something internal.

00:29:55:18 - 00:30:18:12 Alison That's very powerful. So much appreciated. So before I let you both go on your busy days, I would love to close off the discussion and have you each provide a piece of advice that you would give to marketers who are looking to improve their persuasion and communication skills. Obviously, you've given lots of advice throughout this, but if they were going to walk away with one thing and start implementing it today, what would you recommend?

00:30:18:13 - 00:30:36:06 Ben For me, it comes back to, emotions first. We are emotional, irrational beings, and that's how we make decisions. And you need to be thinking about that no matter what you're doing. Again, internal, external, sales, marketing, anything. Emotions first.

00:30:36:12 - 00:30:38:10 Darren Okay. That's a good one.

00:30:38:10 - 00:30:43:20 Ben Sorry, I took the easy one. That's kind of like the, that's like the foundational value for us. So I jumped on it quickly.

00:30:43:21 - 00:31:03:21 Darren You took the best one. I would build on it. I would say unlearn everything that you learned or know about debates. In a debate, it's like a Y shape. You start with a topic and you splinter. This is my view and this is your view. Whoever has a more logical view wins. In negotiation and communication, it's the opposite.

00:31:03:23 - 00:31:20:12 Darren You start with opposing views and you're trying to find a way, a common ground, so you can do business together. So it's quite the opposite as what you would see on like a debate team or whatever that is. So one thing Ben and I would often like to tell people is that, lose the battle, but win the war.

00:31:20:14 - 00:31:48:08 Darren Try not to debate your way out of a negotiation. And you say, oh, I won the argument. No. If you win the argument, you probably lose the business. So sometimes we intentionally lose a battle, not because we don't have a better point, or because we we're less logical. It's just because we want to take a step back, give our counterpart a space to really express what they need, what they struggle with, and then we'll truly help them in the ways that matter.

00:31:48:08 - 00:32:02:23 Darren So, get out of your head, try not to win every argument and try to think of it as a reverse Y shape. You're trying to find a common ground. You, even if you lose a battle temporarily, it's your goal to eventually win the war. And we all mutually benefit from this.

00:32:03:01 - 00:32:12:22 Alison That was very well said. Ben and Darren, thank you so much. This has been very rich with insights and very actionable insights. So I really appreciate you both taking the time.

00:32:13:00 - 00:32:18:18 Ben Thank you so much for the invite. It's been great chatting and we love everything the CMA does, so we're we're very happy to be part of it.

00:32:18:20 - 00:32:20:14 Darren Yeah. Thank you so much.

00:32:20:16 - 00:32:22:11 Alison My pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day.

00:32:22:15 - 00:32:23:01 Ben You too.

00:32:23:03 - 00:32:28:09 Darren Thank you. You too.

00:32:28:11 - 00:32:41:00 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mary DePaoli, Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC and recipient of the 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. Mary shares her unconventional career journey, from journalism to marketing leadership. She discusses the value of P&L experience in marketing, the importance of seeking diverse opinions, and the power of mentorship. Mary offers insights on building a personal board of directors, taking calculated risks, and the joy of developing future leaders.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:21 - 00:00:46:09 Alison It is my absolute pleasure to welcome Mary DePaoli as my guest today. Mary is the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC, where her strategic leadership and marketing expertise have dramatically elevated RBC's reputation. She's made it Canada's number one most valuable brand since 2019. This year, Mary received our CMA Lifetime Achievement Award and is a very, very deserving recipient.

00:00:46:11 - 00:01:14:06 Alison Mary is the brains behind a number of RBC's marquee initiatives across sports, community, arts, and culture. The integration of brand strategy with sustainability and impact is core to her approach. As the chair of the foundation, Mary has deepened RBC's connection with communities and reinforced its commitment to social responsibility, solidifying RBC as a purpose-driven organization admired as much for its values as for its business acumen.

00:01:14:08 - 00:01:41:15 Alison Her personal dedication to mentorship and fostering positive change in our culture and communities is evident through her roles on the boards of Women in Sports and Events, the Toronto International Film Festival, and Western University's fundraising committee. Mary's leadership, significant contributions, and the heart and humanity that she brings to everything she does make her such a deserving recipient of our 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award.

00:01:41:17 - 00:02:04:20 Alison She's also been recognized by Strategy magazine as Marketer of the Year and as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women. Today, we'll explore Mary's unique career path, some of the lessons she's learned along the way, and her advice for marketers who aspire to make their own mark on the profession. Welcome,, Mary, I am so thrilled to have you joining us today, and congratulations once again on your well-deserved recognition.

00:02:04:22 - 00:02:08:22 Mary Oh, thank you so much, Alison. It's really good to be here with you.

00:02:09:00 - 00:02:15:22 Alison So I'm going to kick things off by having you share a little bit about your career path and what initially attracted you to marketing.

00:02:16:00 - 00:02:47:09 Mary Well, my career path was fairly untraditional, I would say. I began my academic career, if you will, as an arts major. And then I got a master's degree in journalism. Found myself spending 17 years in the investment business with a focus on group retirement, group savings, institutional investments in the 90s and 2000s. And then, as I worked my way through my career, it was very dynamic. A very dynamic industry.

00:02:47:15 - 00:03:28:04 Mary I really enjoyed having clients, working in a P&L, and having accountability for a business. But our CEO said one day, you know, I am thinking about creating a Chief Marketing Officer role for Sun Life Financial, and I think you'd be good at it. And it was a bit startling for me because I had never seen myself in anything other than a specific set of roles that related to what I was currently doing. But it really speaks to the value of having great mentors and great champions in your career, because they often see that your skills can be highly portable.

00:03:28:06 - 00:03:57:02 Mary I thought about it for about a week. I took a leap of faith, largely because he was confident in the decision. I wasn't as confident, I'll be honest with you. I didn't know anything about marketing. It was a completely new territory for me. But ultimately, the more I learned and the more I surrounded myself with experts and incredible people that were so giving of their time and knowledge, I realized that this was not just another career for me. It was going to be a destination for me.

00:03:57:02 - 00:04:12:22 Mary And that's how I found myself in marketing. It was really the belief and the understanding that skills can be quite portable, and having great mentors around you who are willing to take a bet on you.

00:04:13:00 - 00:04:32:18 Alison It is amazing how other people can see more of our potential than we sometimes can see in ourselves. So I love that story. I also want to take you back to your early journalism days because, when we were chatting, you had shared what was, to me, a very fascinating story around your time in Washington. And it was such a great example of the initiative that you've brought to all aspects of your career. So I know our listeners would love to hear more about that experience, too.

00:04:41:20 - 00:05:13:18 Mary Well, it was an amazing time. I was going to school, and as part of my academic study, I had the ability to work several internships. And my favourite one, and the one that I spent the most time at, was working at the CNN affiliate in Washington during the presidential election. I have never experienced a more interesting and vibrant and just, you know, unbelievable culture.

You know, I was 22 years old. I was living in Washington, I was learning, I was working, and one of my roles at CNN was to work on Sundays and to essentially just be a runner for Larry King and The Larry King Show. But it was very hard to get close to Larry King. I mean, he was such an incredible phenom and, you know, just a real pillar of journalism, especially at the time.

00:05:42:11 - 00:06:03:15 Mary But I wanted so much to learn from him. I wanted to learn his interview strategies. I wanted to learn how he was able to sort of tap into his guests and bring out incredible stories that they were known for, in every realm, whether it was politics or entertainment. But it was very hard to get close to Larry.

So I realized one day that, every Sunday, Larry liked to order lemon chicken as part of an order that came into CNN. And so I became the runner for his lemon chicken. And I made a point every Sunday of getting his lemon chicken, bringing it to him, and just spending a minute or whatever he had, to ask him a question.

00:06:25:17 - 00:06:48:09 Mary And as he got more and more comfortable with me, as every Sunday went by, and I would drop off his chicken, he would give me more time, and more advice until we were now joking with each other, especially around baseball. He was, you know, an incredible baseball fan. The Toronto Blue Jays were in the World Series, and so it was a very friendly sparring between whose country was better.

00:06:48:17 - 00:07:24:12 Mary And ultimately, we made a bet, and if the Jays won, he agreed to wear a Canada pin on his tie during the next broadcast. And of course, we all know what happened. The Jays did win. He did fulfill his bet, and it was just an amazing friendship that we had.

And so, when I step back and think about that, one of the things I like to say to anyone I'm mentoring is you will find that knowledge and insight and access, and life lessons come from some of the most unusual places. But don't be afraid to find ways to just put yourself into a situation.

Back in the day, we would say, you know, just walk by the photocopier machine if there was someone that had an office near it and you wanted to bump in and learn from them. Whatever the avenue is, get creative and find ways to just get exposure to the people that you're inspired by.

00:07:48:21 - 00:07:58:02 Mary And I know for me, with that Larry King story, there were lessons I learned from him that three decades later, I'm still applying in my daily life.

00:07:58:04 - 00:08:20:08 Alison I love that story. The power of lemon chicken. And to your point, like demonstrating that initiative and finding a way and what it can lead to. It also sounds like a magical time with the Jays and everything else, but way to make the most of it. That's clearly served you well throughout your career.

Now, you also highlighted having P&L accountability very early in your career and certainly before you became a marketer. So how has that shaped you as a marketer?

00:08:23:04 - 00:08:47:23 Mary I would say it was one of the most fundamental building blocks, whether it was in this job or even in any other job that I foresaw myself in, having the ability to understand how a business works, how it makes money, how it interacts with clients, how it wins clients, how it loses clients, how you segment clients, and understand how to create value.

00:08:47:23 - 00:09:17:04 Mary It doesn't matter what segment, it doesn't matter what customer base, it doesn't matter where in the world. When you have worked in a business, it gives you a fundamental understanding of what you are trying to do as a business to appeal to an audience.

And I often bring all of those lessons learned when I was interacting with customers, or building products, or being fired by them, or being hired by them. It gives you an intuition as a marketer that is invaluable.

00:09:17:06 - 00:09:37:01 Mary And so one of the things I say to so many marketers when they ask me, "What are some of the steps that I can take to become a stronger marketer in my career?" I will always tell them, find a way to work in a business, learn a business.

00:09:37:03 - 00:09:53:12 Mary What you learn is so portable, both to any other business if you decide you wanted to stay in that stream, or as a marketer, because it gives you a fundamental understanding of why you are marketing, who you are marketing to, and why it matters.

00:09:53:14 - 00:10:21:18 Alison I absolutely share that passion. It also gives you, beyond the insights of what it takes to run a business, also gives you great credibility because your colleagues across the business know that you've been in their shoes and really understand what's required to deliver a successful business.

We both know that marketing is absolutely crucial to building businesses. And to be able to talk on both sides of that conversation and have experience on both the P&L and the marketing side is absolutely a game changer.

00:10:21:20 - 00:10:39:11 Alison Now, often, and certainly in my case, some of the hardest lessons I've learned have been through mistakes and learning them the hard way. And sometimes those are the most memorable. That's a lot of memory glue when you learn a lesson the hard way. So I'd love you to share a lesson or two that you've learned the hard way.

00:10:40:00 - 00:11:05:15 Mary What a great question. I think you're so right, Alison. It's often through how you are tested that you grow. And I would say one of the most fundamental lessons I've learned, and I think it applies to so many times where I reflect back and think, "That was a bit of a miss" or "That was a huge miss" or "Could I have done something better or different?"

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:52:09 Mary It all sort of points back to one area, and that is this: when I've gone into a situation and I didn't have enough perspective, it sort of leads you to a spot where you're working with less information and you're at less of an advantage.

And so, one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned coming out of a meeting, or coming out of an altercation, or coming out of something that just may not have ended well or has gone sideways, is I always ask myself, "Did I take the time upfront to really talk to enough people to get a well-rounded view of the situation?"

I find when I've done that and I've brought in different perspectives, perspectives from people that I may or may not agree with, I walk away thinking, "All right, I can see that problem or that issue from so many different dimensions," and the complexion of the issue or the complexion of the problem becomes much more solvable if you will.

00:12:16:09 - 00:12:42:04 Mary But the times where I've walked away frustrated, or it's been a miss, or someone's been frustrated, or we're delayed, or whatever the case might be in the work, it's usually because I haven't actually thought widely enough or consulted enough people. And so that's really where mistakes are made, because in the end, you end up with something that is suboptimal because it doesn't reflect everyone's viewpoint.

00:12:42:06 - 00:13:03:06 Mary And even when you're in a situation where you can only go forward with one view, at least if you have engaged everyone, you can still agree to disagree, but walk out of that room knowing that everybody was heard and had a chance to contribute. And that actually allows you to have a much smoother glide path with whatever it is you're doing.

00:13:03:06 - 00:13:34:21 Mary So I think the biggest lessons that that I have learned have been take the time upfront, engage everyone that has a stake or even has a different opinion than yours, and come at it thoughtfully, whatever that might be. I find that you you end up with a much better outcome, a better engagement, and a better kind of culture around your team than if you're just sort of driving ahead without having as much diversity of opinion.

00:13:34:23 - 00:13:51:14 Alison That's great advice. And one additional lesson I took out of that that you didn't overtly say, because it's so natural to who you are and how you work, when you came out of an altercation or mistake, the first thing you did was look at yourself and said, "What's my role in this? What should I have done differently?" Not everyone does that, so that's a huge lesson as well.

00:13:53:07 - 00:13:56:17 Mary That self-reflection is is so important. Yeah.

00:13:56:19 - 00:14:02:10 Alison And with the benefit of hindsight, is there anything that you would change about your career journey?

00:14:02:12 - 00:14:36:17 Mary I think I've had an incredible journey. You know, my my origin story is one of very humble beginnings. And I, I didn't have high expectations of myself when I was younger. I knew I had this burning desire to learn and be curious, but as I look at the career that I've had, I've had the ability to work with so many people in so many sectors, doing many different things that have built up my skills.

00:14:36:19 - 00:15:03:09 Mary I think looking back, there isn't anything that I would change per se, but the advice that I think I might have given my younger self would have been to have bet on myself a lot earlier, and to have had the confidence to make some of these moves a lot sooner in my career. I was more cautious. I always felt that I needed to be able to master a job, or at least be 99% there

00:15:03:09 - 00:15:32:12 Mary before I took it. But I think going forward, I, and certainly my younger self, I think I would have given myself this advice. As long as you're about 70% comfortable, what's the worst that could happen? Go for it! And and so that would be what I would have changed, Alison, is I think I would have taken some of these bets and made some of these moves earlier in my career, and just had more confidence that it's going to be okay and not have, overanalyze or been so hard on myself.

00:15:32:12 - 00:15:51:15 Mary And I like to tell people that, when they come to me for career advice, what is the worst that can happen here? And they typically think about it and go, oh yeah, you know, it's probably not that bad. I usually say, well, then go for it, go for it. So that would be what I would change.

00:15:51:17 - 00:16:14:13 Alison That's very freeing advice and I think it's relevant for anyone. It's particularly relevant for women who can often expect ourselves to have 90 - 100% of the skills before we raise our hand for something. Now, you mentioned earlier that it was the Sun Life CEO who saw potential for you in a leadership role in marketing long before you gave yourself credit for that.

00:16:14:15 - 00:16:21:06 Alison So what gave you the courage to make that leap, and how has it impacted your career?

00:16:21:08 - 00:17:00:08 Mary I think what gave me the courage was I had a direct manager in him, in Don Stewart and I had some very good mentors around me and great colleagues around me that were able to show me, number one, that your skills are very portable, and number two, that there was very little downside in trying something different. And so I think where I lacked the confidence, often I would just trust that the people that I admired had it in me.

00:17:00:10 - 00:17:23:17 Mary And so that trust went a long way. And then it was really simply a matter of saying, all right, I'm going to just put my hand up, even if I'm terrified, even if I'm uncomfortable, and I'm going to go for it. And so when, when I, when I share some of these experiences or draw them out of people that I'm mentoring, I typically say, you know, who is your personal board of directors?

00:17:23:19 - 00:17:43:16 Mary And I'm always very curious about the answer. And if they don't have one or it's not broad enough, that's the first thing I'll say to them is, get one. Get a board of directors that reflects where you want to grow. Ensure that it's made up of people that are very different than you, because they'll be additive to you.

00:17:43:18 - 00:18:09:02 Mary And as you go through different phases in your life and different phases in your career, keep adding to or changing that personal board of directors, because they will reflect where you're going, not where you've been. And, and I think that's that's always been something that I found very helpful as I've been looking at decisions in my either my personal life or importantly in my career.

00:18:09:04 - 00:18:22:23 Alison That's such great advice again. So you are very much for someone who pays it forward, and you are known as an incredible mentor and sponsor as well. So what's inspired you to invest so much in developing others?

00:18:23:01 - 00:18:42:17 Mary It's one of the biggest joys in in my day. I'm going to be honest with you, Alison, I, I love and maybe that's the the former journalist in me, but I love sitting down with someone and saying, all right, tell me everything. Where are you going? What are you struggling with? What do you love about what you're doing?

00:18:42:17 - 00:19:06:10 Mary What do you not love about what you're doing? What kind of manager do you want to be? What kind of leader do you want to be? What kind of contributor do you want to be? What does life at retirement look like? And it's it's interesting you go on these journeys with people and you are able to draw out things that they know, but often you can just frame differently for them.

00:19:06:12 - 00:19:29:06 Mary And it gives me so much joy to be able to do that. I don't know that I necessarily teach them anything new about themselves. I really I don't think I do, but I think the joy in the in the interaction is that you're able to reframe something that maybe they were too close to, and they walk away thinking, all right, I've got a different path or I can see the path clearer.

00:19:29:08 - 00:19:50:15 Mary And so that's why I enjoy spending time with people and, and mentoring them. And, you know, really just understanding how they view the world. Now, I'll tell you, it's not just one way. It is very much mutually beneficial, because what I walk away with every time is a new insight or something that I hadn't thought about before.

00:19:50:15 - 00:20:14:08 Mary And as I like to joke, my mentees actually are probably some of my best mentors because I'm finding I am learning so much from this younger generation that is just dealing with a very different world. In a world where they're at the forefront of how brands are evolving, how disruption is playing out, the use of AI in their daily lives.

00:20:14:09 - 00:20:29:04 Mary There's so much more comfortable with technology. And so I'd like to say I'm doing the mentoring. I think it's actually a bit of a two way street and I get a lot out of it. So that's why I spend so much time doing it. It's actually a real joy.

00:20:29:06 - 00:20:46:13 Alison I've had a similar experience to you. It's one of the most rewarding things we can do. And to your point, I learn absolutely as much, if not more, from any mentees that I've had as they're learning from me as a mentor? Now you've accomplished a ton in your career so far. So the next question might be a bit of a tough one.

00:20:46:15 - 00:20:52:10 Alison When you think about all you've done, what accomplishment are you most proud of in your career so far?

00:20:52:12 - 00:21:16:08 Mary That's a really good question, Alison. And so, you know, just I'll just give you my top of mind reaction. There's nothing, there's nothing that comes to mind that is about the work. I know the work was incredible. You know, I think back to all the wins and the incredible highs and the great KPIs and the great outcomes for the business.

00:21:16:10 - 00:21:52:07 Mary That's all so wonderful. But it is not the thing that I think about when I think about my career. I would say that the biggest accomplishment for me has been to see someone that I knew early in their career, now be an executive and put their own mark of leadership on a wide group of people. And I, I love being in those meetings where I sit back and think, you know, I'll look at someone and I'll just see them crushing it in a meeting.

00:21:52:07 - 00:22:27:10 Mary And I'll think, I remember when you were, you know, way over here and now you are holding yourself with so much autonomy and expertise and passion and leadership. And I know my job is done, right? And I think that is one of the most exciting things for me as a marketer, or even in my prior career in the investment business, is when you see that generation just rise up and become so accomplished.

00:22:27:12 - 00:22:45:15 Mary It just, it's but maybe it's the mom in me, but it gives me such a proud feeling that that next generation is going to just go out and crush it. And we're going to be in great hands, right? We're going to be in just great hands. That to me, like I see the people, I see their names, I see their faces.

00:22:45:17 - 00:22:57:03 Mary And that to me just puts a smile on my face. The work is the work. I think the work is the means to which people excel. So I would say that is probably the biggest accomplishment.

00:22:57:05 - 00:23:19:17 Alison That might be the mom in you. It is definitely the leader in you, for sure. So the CMA Awards this year recognized such inspiring talent from a creativity perspective, Marketer of the year, Rising talent. You were absolutely the highlight for me in receiving our Lifetime Achievement Award. What did that mean for you?

00:23:19:19 - 00:23:44:02 Mary Well, I think I've shared this with you a little bit. Alison. I was not expecting the effect to be as profound as it has been. What it has meant for me is personally, to to achieve recognition like that. I don't know that there's anything bigger. There isn't, at least for me, an honour bigger than the one that you have bestowed.

00:23:44:02 - 00:24:12:06 Mary And, and I have been so humbled by it. It has been incredibly moving for me personally. The team has been so excited, especially since I've told them, you know, I feel like I'm the steward of this award. I feel like it's a shared award and everybody's part of it, and that makes me incredibly happy. But personally, I've heard from hundreds of people all the way through when I was in grade school, Alison.

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:39:03 Mary Like, they they've just found a way to sort of connect back. And it might be that hometown Hamilton thing, but my parents, my family, my extended network. Hearing from them, seeing how emotional they've been has made me even more emotional. So I would say I've never been so grateful. I've never been so humbled. And it has meant the world to me and my family.

00:24:39:03 - 00:24:44:01 Mary I, I just can't thank you and the CMA board enough.

00:24:44:03 - 00:24:56:05 Alison So you made me tear up in one of our earlier conversations, when you shared your how your parents reacted and your dad in particular. So I'm going to put you on the spot and see if you'll share that story with us.

00:24:56:07 - 00:25:23:02 Mary Oh my gosh. So my parents are immigrants to Canada and I think the most they were hoping for was all that sacrifice would just give my brother and I a head start. And so when they read the the article in the Hamilton Spectator and they saw some of the footage from the award presentation, my dad cried, and my dad never cries.

00:25:23:04 - 00:25:53:04 Mary And, it was it was an incredible moment for my father, just, and my mother just to know that, all that sacrifice and all that hard work and all of that knowledge that they tried to pass on to my brother and I landed somewhere, and they they just felt really good about that. And, and then just a quick story is in the Hamilton Spectator, they asked me a question about, you know, what what were some of the core memories from Hamilton.

00:25:53:06 - 00:26:14:22 Mary And I told them, my gosh, like growing up, it was Roma Pizza. It's, it's it's going to sound crazy, but Roma Pizza is just a slab of dough with tomato sauce. There's no cheese, there's no toppings. But it's one of those things where where you know, you know, right. Like you just know. And when you're from Hamilton, you know what Roma pizza meant to your childhood.

00:26:15:00 - 00:26:37:17 Mary Anyway, so they they were inundated by calls from people who had read that Hamilton Spectator article where I talked about Roma Pizza and its importance in my life, and through a friend and an uncle and a cousin and a friend, they found my father. And when they reconnected with my dad, and they gave my dad a couple of pizzas, which I thought was incredibly kind.

00:26:37:19 - 00:26:51:11 Mary It was again, such an unbelievable moment for, for my, my parents and such a classic Hamilton moment. So, so many tentacles to this award, including, you know, ones like that. But I've been so grateful.

00:26:51:13 - 00:27:09:10 Alison And talk about Hamilton pride. The feature that they did after you won the Lifetime Achievement Award was incredible. You also, in typical Mary DePaoli fashion, used it for good. So can you share a little bit about the charity that's benefiting and how that worked?

00:27:09:12 - 00:27:43:01 Mary Yeah. Thank you. I think this is, this is also one of the most incredible things about this. I have to thank Jordan Bitove and Mike Beckerman with Torstar. When they when they heard about this award, they did something so brilliant, and I thought so community-minded. They reached out and said, we own the Hamilton Spectator. It's a great editorial story, but could we contact some of the partners that you deal with and inquire whether or not they would want to put a congratulatory ad in the paper?

00:27:43:03 - 00:28:04:23 Mary And if so, we know what you're going to say, Mary. It's either going to be "no:, or it's going to be "yes as long as we could do something related to charity." And so they had already thought that through. And they said all the proceeds of these congratulatory ads will go to a charity of your choice. Mike Beckerman led the charge, with Stephanie Bannan on my team.

00:28:05:01 - 00:28:37:03 Mary Two incredible people. And so net-net, I opened the paper and there are six pages of ads. It raised over $40,000. And I've directed it to the Hamilton Food Network, which is essentially the food banks across the Hamilton region, and especially at this time of year, where they are so pressured to meet the demand, we were able to give them over $40,000 to buy food for families.

00:28:37:03 - 00:28:50:07 Mary And so, that was, again, just the power of this incredible group of people that I've known and the way they mobilize and what they do for good. And I have to give them all the credit, because that was pretty, pretty phenomenal of them.

00:28:50:09 - 00:29:11:15 Alison I am so thrilled with all of the families, especially as you say at this time of year, there is such a need for food banks right now, so thank you for that. So the close off today's discussion, I would love you to share the advice that you would give to marketers who are listening, that aspire to follow in your footsteps, and perhaps one day also receive the CMA Lifetime Achievement Award.

00:29:11:17 - 00:29:39:01 Mary Well, I would say this. I would say your footsteps are going to be different than mine. And they should be. They should be uniquely yours. And I would say, own your career, bet on yourself. And surround yourself with people that believe in you too, and are willing to bet on you and advocate for you even when you're not in the room.

00:29:39:03 - 00:29:59:04 Mary And so I talked a little bit about what that personal board of directors looks like. Think about what yours is. Think about who should be on it. Think about how that board changes, the kind of advice that they will give you. Seek it out thoughtfully. Use that time wisely and your career is going to be everything you want it to be.

00:29:59:04 - 00:30:09:23 Mary But, bet on yourself, and be curious, and just surround yourself with really good people. And honestly, you'll be just fine. You'll be more than fine.

00:30:10:01 - 00:30:20:20 Alison Thank you so much. This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation, and I really appreciate you making time in your very busy schedule to share your great career and insights with our listeners.

00:30:20:22 - 00:30:32:04 Mary Thank you. Alison, you've, you've made it easy, and I really appreciate everything that you do for the industry.

00:30:32:06 - 00:30:44:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, speaks with Alison Osborne, the VP of Marketing at Quill Inc. Osborne shares her entrepreneurial journey, her company's acquisition, and winning the CMA's prestigious Achievement in Marketing (AIM) award. She also discusses the importance of self-advocacy and provides tips for young professionals striving to advance their careers. Watch the episode on YouTube.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:20 - 00:00:46:11 Alison S. I'm very happy to welcome my guest today, Alison Osborne. Alison's a VP of Marketing at Quill Inc. and the most recent winner of our prestigious CMA Achievement in Marketing Award. This award honours a rising star who has shown outstanding performance and promise in the marketing profession early in their career. Before joining Quill, Allison founded Origins Media House. They're a company specializing in branded podcasts that was later acquired by Quill.

00:00:46:13 - 00:01:14:02 Alison S. Her journey from young entrepreneur to now working in marketing at a larger organization is one filled with some valuable lessons, some challenges overcome, and also exciting opportunities seized. So in this episode, we'll explore Alison's entrepreneurial beginnings, the experience of having her company acquired, and also her thoughts on the future of content marketing. She'll share her motivation around the AIM Award, and also offer some great advice for young professionals who are looking to take charge of their careers.

00:01:14:04 - 00:01:19:03 Alison S. So I would like to officially welcome my namesake, Alison, to the CMA Connect podcast today. 00:01:19:05 - 00:01:24:12 Alison O. Hello, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. And, what a nice intro.

00:01:24:14 - 00:01:40:01 Alison S. We're going to try not to confuse each other with Alison. And it's even spelled the right way. So that's that's pretty unusual. To kick things off, can you share what led you to start Origins Media House, and also what motivated you to pursue the path of entrepreneurship?

00:01:40:03 - 00:02:04:20 Alison O. Yeah, definitely. So Origins Media House, which I will shorten to OMH for speaking purposes because it is quite a lengthy name. It started out when I was in, I believe it was my second year of university where I was going to, Toronto Metropolitan University and myself, as well as a few friends in the program I was in, as well as some other production programs,

00:02:04:22 - 00:02:27:11 Alison O. we wanted to get a better understanding of, how entrepreneurs were building their companies, what their journeys were looking like. We were young. We were, gung ho about starting our careers. The program that we were in was very entrepreneurial focused. And, a good friend of mine actually started with the idea of, well, let's see what others are doing where we're new to the space. 00:02:27:13 - 00:03:04:08 Alison O. If we ever want to start our own thing, we kind of want the playbook of what others were doing. So we began with having conversations and networking and building almost a magazine. An online magazine about, these founders' experiences. And throughout that journey, we fell in love with the production side of speaking to these entrepreneurs. So we would develop a lot of creative assets around these interviews, like videos and photography and, in some cases audio, and realized that we had a bit of a knack for it as well. 00:03:04:08 - 00:03:40:19 Alison O. And, from there, a lot of the founders and startups that we were speaking to were looking for production work themselves, and it was kind of a natural partnership from that point forward of, we're able to almost use our magazine as a lead generation piece to then get clients to do the production work for. So with that, I would say we didn't set out to become entrepreneurs in our mind. We set out to understand entrepreneurs, and then from there naturally fell into becoming entrepreneurs ourselves.

00:03:40:21 - 00:03:58:22 Alison O. And it was, a really fun and creative journey for us to take. And I enjoyed that we kind of had these building blocks and knowledge to use of what we had learned from who we were speaking to, to then apply to our own company. 00:03:59:02 - 00:04:16:17 Alison S. I love that you started this almost as a school project and really taught yourself about entrepreneurship, and then decided, this is a pretty cool path. I'm going to pursue it. And to do that with a couple of people that you had gone to school with is an amazing experience. I've also been an entrepreneur and there's so much to love about it. 00:04:16:17 - 00:04:27:17 Alison S. I will absolutely describe it as sort of a a real world way to get your MBA. It also comes with challenges. So I'd love to hear some of the challenges that you and your colleagues overcame.

00:04:27:19 - 00:04:59:08 Alison O. Yeah, I would say, a couple challenges and and hard lessons. We were obviously very young, so we didn't have years of career experience prior to lean back on as knowledge when we would hit some more difficult situations or decisions to be made. So we failed fast and learned quickly and mistakes that we made were things like, the importance of lawyers when it comes to contracts and things like that,

00:04:59:08 - 00:05:31:12 Alison O. and some of those mistakes cost a lot of money and really hurt. But we learned from them. And I think because we were, again, so young and excited with this experience and, fresh in the entrepreneurial landscape. Although those challenges were tough, we were very agile with them as well. And, we were able to move and pivot the company as we saw fit.

00:05:31:14 - 00:05:44:23 Alison O. And, if something didn't work, we scrapped it.We moved forward. We didn't dwell on it. And, it was, I think the mindset that we had around the company was, was a good one to have at that time. 00:05:45:01 - 00:05:56:15 Alison S. That's amazing. And some of when I look back on my career, the painful lessons are absolutely the ones that you're never going to repeat and will stay with you decades from now. 00:05:56:17 - 00:05:59:03 Alison O. Yes, yes for sure. 00:05:59:09 - 00:06:18:03 Alison S. Now, I want you to walk us through the acquisition process. When Quill acquired OMH, what were some of the key considerations and challenges that you and your co-founders faced as you were deciding to sell your company? Because that's such a big decision. In many ways, this is your baby. you've worked hard together to build it, and then you think about when and are you ready to sell it? 00:06:18:03 - 00:06:20:02 Alison S. So I'd love to hear more about that.

00:06:20:04 - 00:06:45:21 Alison O. Yeah, yeah. So we were about, I want to say, 4 or 5 years into, the growth of our company. So it was relatively well established. And at that point in time, we had noticed maybe about two years prior that there was starting to be a new medium taking the stand. And that was podcasts, and we had a knack for that audio piece, too. 00:06:45:21 - 00:07:09:16 Alison O. And we were creating podcasts for ourselves, for the company, and then naturally had some of the companies that we were working with come to us and ask for a podcast for their company. And at this time, Branded Podcast was such a new term. It was very fresh for companies to start using this as a marketing tool. And we noticed that there weren't a lot of agencies in the space that were focusing on that audio piece.

00:07:09:16 - 00:07:46:11 Alison O. So, we pivoted our company to become primarily just a branded podcast production agency. And, at that time, Quill was also coming to market, which they were a market, a digital marketplace first, and then also a podcast agency second. And we ended up partnering with them on a couple projects, with various clients. So we were lucky in the sense that we had already had a tester of knowing that the two companies worked well together and that we enjoyed their team, they enjoyed our team.

00:07:46:15 - 00:08:14:17 Alison O. We brought a lot of the production and creativity background. They brought a lot of the, biz dev knowledge. So it was quite a natural partnership. And then in 2020, there was, final decision of they approached us with an offer for an acquisition. And at that time in our lives, we were all again, like I said, 4 or 5 years into this, it was a really great experience.

00:08:14:17 - 00:08:41:15 Alison O. We we absolutely loved it. But we were also tired. And this was the only career experience to, to an extent that we had had. And we were ready to try something new. And, and as I'm sure we'll discuss as well, join a bit of a larger company and have more resources and also take a bit of a step down and enjoy being employees for once versus, creators and decided to, to make that decision. 00:08:41:15 - 00:09:09:04 Alison O. So but I would say the key things that we looked at were the synergy between our two companies, which again, we were lucky to know worked well. We looked at what all of our roles and futures were going to look like at that company. So where Quill saw us fitting in and what our departments would look like and the autonomy that we would have over those departments, that was a big piece as well.

00:09:09:09 - 00:09:33:04 Alison O. And then also just the future of and the vision of Quill and where they saw the company going and did align with how we feel about content, how we feel about audio, do we feel excitement towards it? And we got to be a bit, I would say selfish in that, what do we want? And personally, what do we want our career paths to look like?

00:09:33:04 - 00:09:35:01 Alison O. And will this support us?

00:09:35:01 - 00:09:58:22 Alison S. It's amazing. It sounds like such a great coming together, two organizations and to your point, like being able to work with the people when you were two separate companies that immersed in their culture. Because often what will make for a very bad partnership is its very different cultures. If there's not complementary skill sets, and if you're not bringing something new, instead you're bringing more of what they're already doing,

00:09:58:22 - 00:10:26:06 Alison S. and it sounds like, your business And Quill was highly complimentary from a cultural perspective or from a talent perspective and from a product offering perspective. So, very good. Yeah. As you mentioned, even with all of those things working to your advantage, going from your entire career, being an entrepreneur, in control of your own destiny to a large degree, to becoming an employee, it's a fascinating transition that's also rich with learning. 00:10:26:08 - 00:10:29:17 Alison S. So I'd love to hear you share some about that experience as well. 00:10:29:18 - 00:11:04:10 Alison O. Yeah, I, I mentioned this before, but, we are all and to this day so very lucky that although now employees, we have a lot of autonomy over our departments. So rather than being co-founder and CMO, I now got to transition to just running the marketing department. So all those co-founder responsibilities and weight on me was lifted. And I got to feel as if I have this sense of entrepreneurship.

00:11:04:10 - 00:11:26:09 Alison O. Still, with the autonomy of the department, I now get to run. But it's all focused on the area of my job that I love the most, which is marketing. And I again, to this day, still get to make a lot of the decisions of where are we going with this? What is this going to look like? What are our next steps?

00:11:26:15 - 00:12:09:01 Alison O. And feel that entrepreneurial, creative spirit that is still alive. But now, just as an employee versus an owner. And of course, it was an adjustment, for myself as well as my co-founders and also an adjustment for the team members that we carried along with us through the acquisition, too. But I think that at that time and even now, it was a good decision for me to be able to hone in on my skill and marketing even more, because now that's where I got to place my emphasis and also be a bit more selfish in my own career.

00:12:09:07 - 00:12:34:09 Alison O. And think about myself and what I want moving forward versus always having the worry of keeping the lights on and the employees happy, which of course, as a manager now, I still think about and I worry about, and I want to make sure my team members are happy, but it's to a different degree. And, and yeah, so I would say it was, an interesting transition, but a good one.

00:12:34:11 - 00:12:48:16 Alison S. And to your point, you get to focus on the part of the job you love. And that way and I can totally relate to even when you said the word weight, there was a yeah, that's real. Like you're not just worried about paying your rent and your mortgage and your bills. You're worried about everyone that's working for you.

00:12:48:16 - 00:13:11:01 Alison S. You feel an accountability for making sure the business is solid and thriving so that they also have that security. So I can totally relate to that weight being released and really being able to focus. Then you also called out like, this is a big decision for you and your co-founders. It's also a bit scary for the team at your organization who are now going to become part of a new organization.

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:14:21 Alison S. So how did you help get that uncomfortable through the process?

00:13:14:23 - 00:13:56:04 Alison O. Yeah, I, I think that, the early on, partnerships that we had with Quill from the beginning helped for sure, because now the team was familiar with the name, they were familiar with the leaders of the company, with the other types of team members that we would be working with. So that wasn't a surprise. I also think that because we were doing the same thing, it was now, it wasn't that they had to change the tasks that they were doing, and the even the types of companies that they were working with, it was just going to be under a new name and with a bigger team with more resources.

00:13:56:06 - 00:14:30:21 Alison O. So of course, we had sit down conversations with our team and for some of them, that were primarily contractors versus full time, decided not to come along with the acquisition. And we had conversations with those, and that's okay. But for the team members that did decide to, to follow through with the acquisition as well, I think that because it was just such a natural partnership, it wasn't as big of a friction point because they got to do what they were doing under each.

00:14:30:21 - 00:14:31:20 Alison O.

Anyways. 00:14:31:22 - 00:14:43:21 Alison S. Yeah, so much about changes the unknown. And to your point, because you had a chance to work together as two teams coming together with a shared purpose that takes a lot of the unknown and the fear out of it for sure.

00:14:43:23 - 00:14:46:07 Alison O. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:14:46:09 - 00:15:00:22 Alison S. Now, you've mentioned a couple times being selfish about your career, and I don't think you're being selfish about your career at all. I think what you're doing is managing your career, so I'd love to hear how the acquisition and your new role at Quill has opened new opportunities for your career growth.

00:15:00:22 - 00:15:35:20 Alison O. Yeah. In many ways, the first I would say is they have dedicated a lot of resources and to, team members for our own personal growth, in our careers, for example, I worked with a, growth marketing advisor for about a year, and, he, I credit him to a lot of my perspective on growth, falling in love with data marketing. 00:15:35:20 - 00:16:12:20 Alison O. And that piece of the puzzle was previously I was very much more content focused branding focused, didn't have that knack for the data piece, the data and growth and even product marketing piece, and he really honed that skill with me. So having resources like him on deck to be able to utilize and, leverage and shape the career path that I will be pursuing in the future, continuing to move forward as well as, we launched a analytics and, podcast insights product in 2022, and that has been an amazing experience.

00:16:12:20 - 00:16:44:17 Alison O. And, previously I had never worked on any sort of product. So it's been an entirely new piece of the marketing puzzle for me that I've gotten to learn about and own and shape and refine my own skills and perspectives on. So I would say elements like that that just lend to a larger company where you can do a bit more, invest a bit more, play with bigger budget and have more people to utilize. 00:16:44:22 - 00:16:50:19 Alison O. It's opened the doors for where I see myself moving forward.

00:16:50:21 - 00:17:09:18 Alison S. That's such great learning. So knowing that Quill specializes in branded podcasts, I'd love you to share your insights on the rise of this medium. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. It's still relatively new, but particularly on the Canadian market. What trends are you observing and what do you think has led to the rise of branded podcasts?

00:17:09:19 - 00:17:39:00 Alison O. Yeah, I think that it's a pretty common opinion that typically the Canadian market is, quite a bit behind the US market when it comes to a variety of things, including media. And we felt that for sure over the past few years. And I would say it's been relatively recently that we're feeling a lot of growth and a lot of investment in the Canadian market when it comes to branded podcasts in particular.

00:17:39:01 - 00:18:11:08 Alison O. And I would say a big reason for this being is that the medium is very effective for not just like awareness and reach and positively shifting brand perception. And those more top funnel activities. But I think that it does a great job at humanizing a brand because it's not common, especially for larger organizations, for customers to see the people behind the brand.

00:18:11:10 - 00:18:51:11 Alison O. And podcasts do that really well at giving a voice and a face and a personality, to a company. And I think that piece of the puzzle is really powerful and what brands are leveraging the most. And from there, I think that it forms, relatively, deep and strong connection between brand and listener. But I will say that this means producing a piece of content that is actually valuable to the listener. That is something they would want to listen to for 30 plus minutes. 00:18:51:17 - 00:19:17:05 Alison O. And, not an extended infomercial for your company, because I don't want to listen to that. You don't want to listen to that, and no other listener will want to listen to that. So there's quite a fine line when it comes to branded podcasts of yes, it's by a brand, but it's not the content that your brand wants to create, it's the content that the audience actually wants to listen to. Which there are some doing really well in the space.

00:19:17:05 - 00:19:49:10 Alison O. For example, within the Canadian market, SickKids hospital has an amazing podcast called Sick Kids Versus. And, they take listeners to the frontline of the fight for child health. And you hear from doctors, hear from family members. It's a beautifully edited podcast. And, another one is even the, Team Canada with the Canadian Olympics. They put out a podcast called Momentum this year, hearing from female, athletes that were preparing for the Olympics, which was a really cool podcast as well.

00:19:49:13 - 00:19:59:18 Alison O. So I think we're seeing more shows come to market and more brands get creative with the type of content that they're producing.

00:19:59:20 - 00:20:26:09 Alison S. Those are great examples. And in an age where authenticity and consumers' desire to call BS on brands that aren't being truly themselves is at an all time high, podcasts really do create a great opportunity to have a very open and honest conversation when they're well done. There's an intimacy to it that you can't get another marketing and media vehicles that can be incredibly powerful.

00:20:26:11 - 00:20:53:01 Alison O. I, I completely agree. And, I think that there, they're not to be slept on. They're a, a really impactful medium. And even with the clients that we are working with, we see benefits beyond what we all set out for when producing the podcast and even things with the guests that they invite on to the show. The relationships and partnerships that they get to build from there.

00:20:53:03 - 00:21:08:03 Alison O. The feedback that they get from audiences of how it's helped them throughout their own careers or change their mindset when it comes to certain industry or topic. It's a really impactful content form. And, and I'm excited to see more Canadian brands are using it.

00:21:08:05 - 00:21:25:04 Alison S. So looking ahead to 2025, which is shockingly a few short weeks away, what shifts and trends do you anticipate, and we'll broaden the conversation, in content creation and marketing. And then what recommendations would you give to marketers who are listening to effectively navigate these changes?

00:21:25:06 - 00:22:00:12 Alison O. Yeah, I, this feels like a very generic answer, but I think it's still so important. And of course, as a content agency, we're going to say this, but, content. I think that content is so important. And if you don't have a strong content strategy, then you're going to be left behind, whether that involves podcasts or not. And with the rise of AI, I think we're seeing more content than ever before, but less content that's punching through the noise.

00:22:00:14 - 00:22:32:02 Alison O. And I think that's where the sweet spot is, is not saying to not use AI in any capacity, but, more so focusing on creating content that, is well researched is, focused on thought leadership, is taking a unique perspective, is showcasing your brand's true opinions and ideas, and is just something different than what we see out there that, feels very repetitive and, cookie cutter.

00:22:32:08 - 00:23:11:22 Alison O. So I think in 2025, we're going to see more brands getting creative with how they produce content. And of course, we're a podcast agency. So I primarily have podcast examples in my head. But, for example, another agency produced a really cool podcast called, Murder in HR, and it was a for an HR software, and they made a full, almost true crime style fiction series about, a, assassin, I believe that was in an HR department and had to uncover, like, who was committing these murders?

00:23:11:22 - 00:23:29:16 Alison O. I don't know the exact storyline, but, it was a really cool idea and something that I don't think we see typically in B2B marketing especially. So I think we're going to see more of that of content that stands out, that catches attention, and that goes a bit against the grain.

00:23:29:18 - 00:23:31:22 Alison S. That's a great example. I'm definitely intrigued to find

00:23:31:22 - 00:23:33:00 Alison O. out, which HR

00:23:33:00 - 00:23:44:11 Alison S. would be the of all the departments you want to be the most adhering of standards on the topic? Yeah, a murder mystery podcast is a very intriguing example, so thanks for sharing that.

00:23:44:13 - 00:23:46:01 Alison O. Yeah. Of course.

00:23:46:03 - 00:24:07:19 Alison S. Now, Allison, you nominated yourself for the AIM award, so I'd love for you to share what motivated you to put yourself forward for this recognition. I also want to applaud you for that because thank you. So few marketers of any age, especially that are newer in their or earlier in their profession, and certainly women. We don't tend to raise their hand and say, you know what, I deserve this.

00:24:07:19 - 00:24:22:00 Alison S. I am going to nominate myself. So huge kudos to you for doing that, and I'd love to you to share your story on why you decided to do that. And what advice would you give to other young professionals, particularly women who may hesitate to seize such opportunities?

00:24:22:02 - 00:25:16:22 Alison O. Yeah, I, thank you. First of all, and, I think that myself, as so many people in their careers, of course, struggle with imposter syndrome to some extent, incapacity. And I think for myself to overcome that, I really hone in on a practice of taking a step back and, observing my career at large. Or even if that's too large to look at, even the past quarter or six months or year and taking stock of what I have done, what I've supported other people and achieving, and where I plan on heading. And with that, it's helped me to feel more confident in my own role and, also my future of knowing if I managed to

00:25:16:22 - 00:25:37:14 Alison O. get here, I'm excited for what the next years will look like and even, to put that into practice, something that I've started doing that has helped and I recommend for others to do as well, is usually on a if I can do it on a weekly basis, typically does not end up being this maybe a monthly basis.

00:25:37:16 - 00:26:06:00 Alison O. I try to make a list of just the highlights of the month. These are the key things that I achieved. Or again, I supported someone else in achieving. And then at the end of the year, I end up having this master list of what the year looked like for me. And those are always a bit of a shock to look at at the end of the year of Wow, there is a lot on there because when you're in the day to day, it's hard to realize and take note of what you have done, especially in marketing.

00:26:06:00 - 00:26:40:17 Alison O. When one thing's done and you're moving on to the next so you don't take the time to appreciate how far you've come and what you've done. So that has helped to combat that a bit for myself. And then I also think it's who you're. So you surround yourself with. I am really fortunate to not only have an amazing team and, amazing coworkers that, make me feel valued and highlight what I've achieved and encourage me for these types of awards to participate in and submit in, but also my community and network at large.

00:26:40:19 - 00:27:03:21 Alison O. Which I spent a long time, trying to build a community of the type of people that I want on my side and around me. They have been a huge help to further my career, to hone in on the direction I would want to go in, and to make me feel confident when it comes to these types of awards.

00:27:03:22 - 00:27:19:07 Alison S. That's outstanding advice. I really like the monthly highlights in particular, because even like no matter how much we all love our jobs, there are days and sometimes weeks where it's really not a lot of fun. So to be able to go back to that list and remind yourself of what you're capable of and what you've accomplished would be incredibly rewarding.

00:27:19:07 - 00:27:20:12 Alison S. So well done.

00:27:20:14 - 00:27:31:20 Alison O. Yeah, yeah, it I recommend it. It's sometimes it's hard to get myself to do or even you forget because if you're doing it on a monthly basis, a lot happens in a month. But I do recommend trying to do it.

00:27:31:22 - 00:28:01:12 Alison S. That's great. Well, if you're not doing on a monthly basis, then at the end of the year you're trying to think about, yeah, what did I accomplish? I really want to do so I would love to close off by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners, knowing that we're primarily a marketing marketers tuning in today, as people are thinking about the Christmas holidays and Hanukkah and then kicking off 2025, what advice would you give them to set themselves up for a really spectacular 2025?

00:28:01:14 - 00:28:37:11 Alison O. My advice would be to be really curious in 2025. I think there are so many new ways to use content new platforms out there, new, companies on the rise. And I think when we lose curiosity, especially as marketers, we, risk becoming stagnant. And that curiosity piece is what drives myself and, drives my own creativity. And I think that's something we can all have a little bit more of.

00:28:37:13 - 00:28:49:00 Alison S. Alison, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I am very proud to share my name with you, and you're such a deserving recipient of our 2024 CMA Award. So congratulations again. 00:28:49:02 - 00:28:59:21 Alison O. Thank you so much. And thank you for this call as well. It was a great chat. 00:28:59:23 - 00:29:12:12 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Kayla Grey, sideline reporter for the Toronto Raptors, and host and co-executive producer of "The Shift with Kayla Grey" on TSN. Kayla will also host the 2024 CMA Awards Gala. Alison and Kayla discuss Kayla's career journey, the strategies that helped her build her brand, and how influential storytelling is in an industry lacking diversity.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:18 - 00:00:49:03 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by a very special guest. Kayla Grey is a trailblazing figure in the world of sports media. As the host and co-executive producer of The Shift with Kayla Grey on TSN, she's been at the forefront of driving important conversations at the intersection of sports and culture. Kayla is also a sideline reporter for the Toronto Raptors, bringing fans closer to the action and the many stories behind the game.

00:00:49:05 - 00:01:10:18 Alison I'm excited to share that Kayla is also hosting this year's CMA Awards Gala on November 22nd. It's going to be a terrific evening celebrating the amazing creativity and impactful work of Canada's marketing profession and all that we've accomplished over the last year. As someone who embraces and has benefited from creativity is important role in building both brands and business,

00:01:10:23 - 00:01:37:17 Alison Kayla will be a wonderful host. In today's episode, we're diving into Kayla's remarkable career journey, exploring some of the lessons she's learned along the way and her strategies behind building a powerful personal brand. We'll also discuss the critical role of creativity in marketing and storytelling, and explores Kayla's thoughts on the future of the sports and entertainment industry. Welcome, Kayla, I am absolutely thrilled to have you here today and looking forward to a great conversation.

00:01:37:19 - 00:01:39:13 Kayla Thanks so much for having me.

00:01:39:13 - 00:01:46:10 Alison Now, I would love to start by having you share a bit about your career journey so far, particularly your experience launching The Shift on TSN.

00:01:46:13 - 00:02:12:19 Kayla So I came to TSN as a radio producer. And sort of that was my intro into the sports world on a broadcasting space. So producing radio, Raptors game nights, Leaf game nights, and then really just working my way into getting in front of the camera, I noticed that there was not really anybody talking about the Raptors at that time, or the opponents that were coming in.

00:02:12:19 - 00:02:30:03 Kayla So I kind of pitched myself to our digital team and said, hey, like, if you're a fan of the Raptors, I truly believe you're a fan of the NBA. Let me talk about it for free 99. And they did. And so that's how I was able to kind of build my rapport that way until I was auditioning for Sportscentre.

00:02:30:05 - 00:02:54:05 Kayla I made my debut of course, and became the first black woman to host a sports highlight show in Canada. And so that was great for me to kind of really get my reps in that way, but then also get my intros in that way, too, with the national audience. I continued with my coverage of the Raptors and really, really knew that there was something I did want to also contribute to the network, which was a show.

00:02:54:07 - 00:03:15:22 Kayla Roll around, 2020 comes around. We're talking about a lack of diversity within the space and one of my biggest things that I've championed all the entire time I was there was the lack of diversity in storytelling, particularly with marginalized communities, but also with women as well. And so, you know, I was thinking and mulling and I was just like, what do I want to watch?

00:03:16:04 - 00:03:40:20 Kayla What does that perfect show look like for me? What are the topics? What are the conversations? What are the things aesthetically that I want to see? And I literally was jotting down every single idea on a napkin. And I brought it to our brand partnership team, who brought it, of course, to a sponsor. They came in and boom, we launched The Shift and we're, I think four seasons, and now still rolling strong.

00:03:40:22 - 00:04:01:07 Kayla And yeah, I think like the first of its kind in this country in terms of it being a digital-based platform on a national network. And so I'm just so proud of the work that we've done. But I'm also proud that, you know, I was able to see a missing hole in the market fill it and it to be successful.

00:04:01:09 - 00:04:24:23 Alison Huge congratulations. In your intro, you've shared two remarkable firsts, and I absolutely love the fact that you took charge. You saw an opportunity. You set a goal for yourself and you didn't wait for someone else to create the opportunity. You defined it, you pitched it and you were successful. So huge kudos to you. And it's easy to understand why you are as successful as you are.

00:04:24:23 - 00:04:27:10 Alison And I can only imagine what the future will bring.

00:04:27:12 - 00:04:28:23 Kayla Thank you.

00:04:29:00 - 00:04:51:01 Alison So part of that is building a strong personal brand. And that's certainly critical for success today in the marketing profession, in the sports and entertainment profession. And I would say in professions in every single industry. So I would love you to share how you've approached brand building when it comes to your own brand. And what advice do you have for others based on your success and learnings along the way?

00:04:51:03 - 00:05:15:04 Kayla Yeah, I think I've been very open about when I first came in because I was only at that time wanting to morph and mold myself into something that was way more malleable for an audience that wasn't used to seeing someone like me on their screen. And that backfired completely. It just totally took me out of my flow, how I usually talked, my spunk, my charisma.

00:05:15:06 - 00:05:52:08 Kayla And I just remember there just being a turning point for me when my grandma called me and was like, you're not even sounding like yourself. Like, who am I watching on the screen? And me having to strip that all away because that was my protection at the time and just go into work bare. Not saying like bare naked, but I mean bare as in, like who I truly was, owning my culture, owning, you know, that I say things a certain way, that I debate topics a certain way, and understanding that in order for me to show up as the best version of myself, I had to come as myself, which took a lot of vulnerability.

00:05:52:10 - 00:06:11:19 Kayla But it was to me something I think that helped to heighten me and my career. And also my platform was, people were getting someone that they felt were authentic. And, you know, to me, I was okay with people not liking who I was. And I was okay with people loving who I was. And you get a bit of both when you're, of course, in front of the camera.

00:06:12:00 - 00:06:34:19 Kayla But it was a non-negotiable for me early on to change who I was or how I did things, the things that I cared about and the causes that I spoke up on. And I think when you think about branding, one of the things that makes you resonate with an audience is being very clear about who you are and your humanity, your ethos, what you believe in.

00:06:35:01 - 00:06:56:23 Kayla And I think that that is the general theme and tie, because I can tell you, there's so many people that I've connected with on social media or at the arena or just, you know, out. And I don't think we would have conversations other than, you know, the fact that they say, recognize me or whatnot. Like, I just don't think that we would be in the same rooms as because of our upbringings, or lived experiences.

00:06:57:01 - 00:07:21:07 Kayla But what I will say is it shocked me is no, but we have something to talk about because we share values. We share a love of sport. There's so many common threads that I think that people miss between themselves and other people that are so easy to tap into. So, you know, when I was thinking about what my brand looked like, I think the first thing that I said was, it has to be real.

00:07:21:09 - 00:07:45:22 Kayla It has to feel good. It has to have integrity. And there was a very quick understanding that if all of those things were there, they would naturally come. An audience would come, my people would come, I would feel seen. And I think I've moved through different brand partnership deals, through different causes, initiatives that I've tried to take up, with the same kind of bar.

00:07:46:00 - 00:07:49:18 Kayla And I think that's allowed me to sleep good at night.

00:07:49:20 - 00:08:10:21 Alison That is such incredibly valuable learning. And the irony is you identified a missed opportunity. You identified the fact that there weren't diverse voices and pitched the network successfully on bringing a diverse voice. And then when you're in the seat, you try to conform. And I've been the first female a couple of times in my career.

00:08:10:21 - 00:08:11:11 Kayla Right.

00:08:11:12 - 00:08:28:00 Alison I fell victim to exactly the same thing. You get your seat at the table and then you try to conform instead of realizing this is going to be so much more powerful by not conforming and by stretching the perceptions and the expectations of the people around the table and ultimately the audiences you're trying to engage, so...

00:08:28:00 - 00:08:52:03 Kayla Yeah, and to be clear, like for yourself, I'm sure you know this. It's not easy. That is not easy work. That is actually the hardest route available to you. But the rewards are just so amazing. And then I think you also know this, that table that we fight so hard to sit at is actually not even made for us to be sitting there at all, nor to be successful at.

00:08:52:05 - 00:09:14:20 Kayla And so I think it's like out of necessity that we understand that, like we have to build new tables, we have to build new rooms, and that takes innovation, that takes awareness of self, that takes courage. And I think in order to succeed in any industry, courage has to be one of the things that you lean all the way into.

00:09:15:01 - 00:09:35:00 Alison And especially in this day and age, and you're a very public figure. People's BS meter, it has never been higher. So yeah, not being true to who we really are, people are going to legitimately call BS on us. They're going to disengage. We're not going to be credible. And when you embrace who you are, it has such an incredible impact.

00:09:35:00 - 00:09:37:10 Alison I also love the fact that your grandmother called you on it.

00:09:37:12 - 00:09:59:09 Kayla Yeah, my my grandmother was like, absolutely not. We're not representing the family this way. And it wasn't that I was doing a bad job. I think she just, she just knows me so well and she I think she also just knows, like, I cannot let you have 20 years in this industry doing this. And then at the end when you look back at your career being like, man, like I who was I, I was like a shell of myself.

00:09:59:11 - 00:10:23:19 Kayla And, you know, I'm very blessed that I, you know, it's it's a blessing and a curse. I came into the industry like, very young, like I was 19 when I first started interning with the Argos, 24 when I made my debut on Sportscentre. And 31 now. So, you know, as much as I was introduced to an audience, I was a completely different person back then.

00:10:23:19 - 00:10:48:21 Kayla I didn't have my son back then. Like I grew with an audience. And, you know, when you're someone that is growing and aging and maturing on a personal standpoint, that also takes form professionally, too. And so I had to get really comfortable with like, hey, I'm okay to change my mind on things. I'm okay to stand a little bit differently in my 30s than I did in my 20s.

00:10:48:21 - 00:11:01:05 Kayla And, you know, I think it's kind of this beautiful relationship that I've built with audience that they've kind of, in many ways seen me grow up and grow through phases. And that's been really special as well.

00:11:01:06 - 00:11:12:17 Alison Yeah. That's amazing. Well, you're also, your audience is growing with you and a huge benefit you're bringing to TSN is that younger audience and those voices that they haven't represented before.

00:11:12:19 - 00:11:30:07 Kayla Yeah. And I think that that was something that I really took on knowing that I might appeal to a different audience, but then also having the wherewithal and mindset, because at the end of the day, like it is a business, that this is going to be the audience that is going to be in the driver's seat when it comes to spending.

00:11:30:09 - 00:11:57:07 Kayla I know how I spend, I know how the economy affects my age group or me. And so, you know, when I come to the table of ideation for The Shift, I can drive those conversations with my lived experiences, and what I'm seeing, what I care about. And I think, you know, because TSN was started so long ago and had a different group of audiences, those values and things are a lot different.

00:11:57:09 - 00:12:20:12 Kayla I'm not saying that they don't matter. They still do matter. And, you know, when we think about a lot of the spending that still comes from that group. But I think as we're thinking about ways to integrate the new audience or the next generation, it is important to have that healthy balance. And so I add value that way of kind of being in the know, of like, okay, this is where we are going, this is the direction where we're going.

00:12:20:14 - 00:12:48:08 Kayla But I still take a lot from the older generation because there was just a level of integrity involved in the journalism. And that's what I grew up on was, you know, the, the strength of journalism, proper question asking. And I'll be honest, I think that that's kind of what's missing right now, with this influx of information. And so, you know, I think that every generation leaves behind a beautiful blueprint.

00:12:48:10 - 00:12:58:20 Kayla And we're doing the industry a misservice to not go back and reference, said blueprint. I'm not saying copy it, but to learn from it and to innovate that way.

00:12:58:22 - 00:13:10:19 Alison So looking forward, building on that, looking forward. How do you see the future of sports and entertainment evolving, especially from a storytelling and an audience engagement perspective? And then I want to hear what excites you most.

00:13:10:21 - 00:13:33:05 Kayla Yeah, and that's a great way to ask it, is what excites me, because I think in this world where there's so much change, the first thing that comes up is what scares us. And I think, you know, as you know, with budgets and all of the things, that fear stops us from trying new things or leaning into new directions in ways, and that's not going to be helpful.

00:13:33:10 - 00:13:55:20 Kayla I think what excites me is all these different platforms that are coming in and new ways of accessibility. That was the biggest thing for me coming up is, I was not able to see myself on camera and I had to, like, illegally stream ESPN feeds just to see like black women in that space and that boils down to accessibility.

00:13:56:01 - 00:14:20:22 Kayla So imagine now a younger audience, varying in gender, varying and sex, varying in beliefs, now has this like level of accessibility to seeing their stories being told. I think that that's what's exciting is now you can kind of reach people everywhere. I think where we're going is we're having that, but then now we're also seeing these streaming companies coming in.

00:14:21:03 - 00:14:52:16 Kayla Right? And that is something to be mindful of. But when we kind of really dissect from like an entertainment landscape of, okay, well, when we think about like the Netflixes of the world, the Amazons of the world, it's this vast library of content, but there's actually no meter of like what's deemed successful. You might be watching Gilmore Girls, I might be watching The Wire and those numbers can't compete with each other because they're completely different.

00:14:52:18 - 00:15:23:17 Kayla And so I think that that's the challenge, is figuring out the new bar of what is successful, what is that return of investment when we're talking about ideating and creating all of this content? And I think that's something the entire industry is shifting and trying to figure out right now is, is it truly quality over quantity, or are we going to revert back to the quantity model from in the past, where, you know, you had your TV, 28 channels, you got what you got.

00:15:23:17 - 00:15:50:02 Kayla Right? And so I think that we're in that kind of question mark, of where we're leaning. But again, I think what excites me is now we get to answer that for ourselves. And now audiences get to answer that for ourselves. I've never seen an era in which an audience can sway a network to hire people, fire people, change content, switch up how content is being shown.

00:15:50:04 - 00:16:04:19 Kayla It truly is this equal transaction and exchange between property and audience and I think in some ways that's going to help build a more collaborative front when it comes to the stories that we're telling.

00:16:04:21 - 00:16:17:14 Alison Great insights, and you're absolutely right that we have so many choices today and we're all really, really busy. So you do get overwhelmed by too much choice and you do want a curated option.

00:16:17:14 - 00:16:17:22 Kayla Yes.

00:16:17:22 - 00:16:24:03 Alison Where we go to like friends and family and apps to, to shorten the list.

00:16:24:05 - 00:16:42:06 Kayla You know, and they barely do. There's certain apps you go and it says top ten picks for you. And then it's because you watched this, another top ten picks. And because your mom watched this, here's ten picks. And it's just like, I think people just want something a little bit more custom.

00:16:42:08 - 00:16:44:12 Alison Like, yeah, it's definitely a work in progress.

00:16:44:12 - 00:16:45:14 Kayla Yes.

00:16:45:16 - 00:16:56:12 Alison So I'm going to switch gears a little bit. We are so looking forward to having you host the upcoming CMA Awards, and I would love to hear, what are you looking forward to about hosting and what do you hope to take away from the experience?

00:16:56:14 - 00:17:27:21 Kayla I think to me, storytelling is my purpose. Sharing stories, inviting vulnerability in people so they can find the confidence in that space as well is like my passion. And, you know, I think when people think about marketing and that realm, selling is the first thing that comes to mind. And to me it's seeing. Seeing is the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to marketing is, it's this like extension of saying to audience, I see you and this is for you.

00:17:27:23 - 00:18:02:11 Kayla And so to me, I'm really, really excited to be in a room full of people that can activate that feeling of being seen and just also see the unique ways of their storytelling, the unique ways of which they've been able to reach people, to allow people to feel in short and long segments. I think that we don't give people enough credit, when it comes to being able to touch people and different mediums and means, and so to just sort of be in that space, I'm really looking forward to it.

00:18:02:13 - 00:18:14:02 Alison I've had the pleasure of judging some of the awards. We've had more award entries this year than ever before, and ticket sales are on fire. So...

00:18:14:02 - 00:18:19:18 Kayla I love that. I love that! Like, you know what? People really want to be amongst each other these days.

00:18:19:20 - 00:18:39:17 Alison Absolutely. And you're going to be wowed by the caliber of the creativity, the diversity of thought and ways that the Canadian marketing profession has really delivered on very different business needs in a way that is so incredibly compelling for the Canadians they're trying to attract and actually have grown the business too. So it's going to be a very fun evening.

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:40:12 Alison I'm looking forward to sharing it with you.

00:18:40:13 - 00:18:41:13 Kayla Yeah.

00:18:41:15 - 00:18:52:17 Alison Now, the awards very much recognize the critical role of creativity in marketing and business. How do you view the importance of creativity in your work, and where do you see it having the biggest impact today?

00:18:52:19 - 00:19:11:00 Kayla Yeah, I think you always have to be innovating. You always have to go back to the mind of your six year old. And I think so much of us, when we grow up, we almost like negate that. But I think about my six year old son and, you know, I give him something to think about or he has Lego to play with.

00:19:11:00 - 00:19:39:14 Kayla And we're both big Lego buffs. So I build by the instructions. Levi, my son, builds by his imagination. And I'm constantly learning from him when it comes to that, because you need a couple of things. You need space to do so. You need resources, of course, but you also need nobody telling you no, or nobody handing you the instruction manual.

00:19:39:16 - 00:20:07:05 Kayla And I think I always go back to that when I'm ideating and when I'm thinking things and when I'm going through, what do I want to see? And what I'm realizing in this process is I'm not dreaming big enough. I'm not creating wildly enough because I have this mental instruction manual in my brain. And, you know, when I think about the most successful campaigns and most successful shows, those are people that were thinking well outside of the box.

00:20:07:05 - 00:20:34:16 Kayla Right. And and so when I think about creativity in business, you know, as much as I'm also getting caught up to that because I was more in the creative space, and numbers were never my thing, I also realized how much the two go hand in hand. And so, you know, when I think about business and success and what made The Shift sell and what's still bringing in attention, it's the risk taking.

00:20:34:18 - 00:20:50:18 Kayla And, you know, the reward at the end is what sustains us. But, you know, obviously you have to be mindful and work within your means. But I think that you're doing the project and the passion a disservice if you're not allowing yourself to kind of run wild sometimes.

00:20:50:20 - 00:20:54:10 Alison That is such great learning. I love that you're learning from Levi as well, because your...

00:20:54:12 - 00:21:14:19 Kayla Your kids are going to be your biggest teachers. As much as we as parents think that we're going to be teaching them, there's so many, I, you know, I remember as a woman coming into the industry and being pregnant and thinking my, my career is over. Like, woman, pregnant in sports, about to have a kid, like it is done for me.

00:21:14:21 - 00:21:30:11 Kayla And when I made my debut, I was eight and a half months pregnant. And I'll tell you, I don't think I would be as successful as I am today without my kid. Like, it just teaches you so much, you know?

00:21:30:13 - 00:21:32:17 Alison Yeah, they get you to see the world differently.

00:21:32:18 - 00:21:35:19 Kayla Different. Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:35:20 - 00:21:36:21 Alison And

00:21:36:21 - 00:21:51:22 Kayla It doesn't have to be kids. It could be your dog. It could be your goldfish. It could be, you know, a loved one. I just think, for me, it was having that extra body in my life, that really allowed me to take just everything to the next level within my career.

00:21:51:23 - 00:21:59:08 Alison So to wrap up our discussion, I would love to have you share one piece of advice for our listeners on how they can grow their career.

00:21:59:10 - 00:22:21:14 Kayla Ooohhh. That's good. I think, so many of us get so caught up in the busy, so caught up in the busy, and so there's a two part. One, live Your life. And I'm not saying that because, you know, I think, I think you should go out and have fun. I absolutely do. But life gives you context.

00:22:21:16 - 00:22:48:21 Kayla And so when you're at the tables and ideas are coming, you have lived enough life to understand what actually makes sense, what actually feels good, what do you actually like? Life gives you the greatest context, I think, for any decision that you make within this space. The second piece of advice is get back to your why. And if you don't have your why, take time to define it and don't define it

00:22:48:21 - 00:23:20:07 Kayla so specifically. I would say that again, my purpose, my why, is to invite people to get vulnerable so they can then be confident, and that confidence is then going to invite other people to step into that vulnerability. I guess broadly I can say storyteller, but storytelling for me appears in so many different ways. So when you figure out your why in a broad term, it gives you permission to play and it gives you permission to apply that

00:23:20:07 - 00:23:53:09 Kayla why in so many different spaces. I think what's what's so beautiful about life is it doesn't have to be this one straight path. The job doesn't have to be the job for the next 30 years. It can take many iterations and it can take many different versions. So I think in terms of career, really getting clear about the why, and the purpose can really help be the best compass for you, for next steps, for advancing, for, you know, switching things up, for transitioning.

00:23:53:09 - 00:23:59:03 Kayla I think getting very clear about that, can be incredibly helpful.

00:23:59:05 - 00:24:04:17 Alison I love your why. It is incredibly inspiring. And will take you so many places in your career.

00:24:04:19 - 00:24:06:20 Kayla Thank you, I appreciate that.

00:24:06:22 - 00:24:15:08 Alison Kayla, I am very much looking forward to sharing the stage with you. Thanks for such a fun conversation and looking forward to continuing it in person.

00:24:15:10 - 00:24:26:08 Kayla Thank you so much for having me, and I cannot wait for these awards. I'm so, so, so excited!

00:24:26:10 - 00:24:38:23 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership news and industry trends.

Is the brand still relevant? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, sits down with two of the CMA's Brand Council members. Peter Rodriguez is the Founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc., and Bruce Symbalisty is the Chief Solutions Strategist at Reality Engine. Tune in for insights from Bruce, Peter and Alison as they discuss what a brand is, how it creates value, its relevance in today's marketplace, and how to effectively measure how it drives business results.

[00:00:00] Narrator: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:22] Alison Simpson: In today's episode, we will explore brand's critical role in driving business success. As the marketplace continues to evolve at an incredibly rapid pace, it's even more important than ever for marketers and for business leaders to truly understand the value of a strong brand. Joining me today are two industry experts and members of our CMA's brand council.

[00:00:43] Alison Simpson: They bring unique perspectives on the power of branding, and this is promising to be a great conversation. Peter Rodriguez is the founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc. And Bruce Symbalisty is a chief solutions strategist at Reality Engine. Peter and Bruce will share their insights on how brands create value and also contribute to long term business growth.

[00:01:02] Alison Simpson: Throughout our discussion today, we're going to tackle a whole host of questions and issues, starting with the question of brand relevance. In the light of the tsunami of change that's impacting our profession, how relevant are brands today? We're also going to discuss how marketers can effectively measure the impact of their brand building efforts.

[00:01:21] Alison Simpson: Peter and Bruce will share their thoughts on the critical role of marketers in ensuring that brands are seen as mission critical to business success. And how they can help bridge the knowledge gap among executives by speaking the language of business. There's certainly some debate in the global marketing profession today, questioning whether brands are still relevant in today's marketplace.

[00:01:41] Alison Simpson: So we'll tackle that in our discussion as well. It's clear that we have a lot to cover and two brand leaders with diverse opinions, which is sure to make for a great conversation. So welcome today, Peter

[00:01:50] Peter Rodriguez: and Bruce. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. It is also a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:56] Alison Simpson: I want to kick things off brand, depending on your [00:02:00] background and your point of view can have surprisingly many, many different definitions.

[00:02:05] Alison Simpson: So I'd love to have you each start by sharing how you define brand. How does a strong brand create value for a business? Peter, why don't you kick things off?

[00:02:14] Peter Rodriguez: Of course. Thank you very much. And brands are incredibly valuable. And in my opinion, there are three pillars that define a brand. One, it's a promise.

[00:02:23] Peter Rodriguez: Two, it's a shortcut. And three, it's an asset. It's a promise of consistent delivery, no matter what. Every time that you interact with the brand, it's a shortcut to understand value. Instead of having to repeat the attributes or benefits of a product, the brand does the shortcut so that we understand it, that we can create value.

[00:02:46] Peter Rodriguez: And the last piece is probably the most important. It's an asset. It's an asset, not only because it can be seen on our. Statements, but because it creates value. It is the one thing that enables an organization to [00:03:00] create higher margins by virtue of offering a higher price point versus others. And that is an engine for financial performance.

[00:03:10] Peter Rodriguez: So in the definition that best works for me. Those three pillars have become crucial in order to understand what the importance of this is for the economy, for companies, for us marketers. And the better we understand how to use this as an asset, we can create that value that our organizations pay us to create.

[00:03:35] Peter Rodriguez: It is more than just the Concept about promotion. It is the asset that enables us to succeed as an organization.

[00:03:44] Alison Simpson: That's a great definition, Peter. And Bruce, how would you define brand?

[00:03:48] Bruce Symbalisty: Well, when we look at brand and it's actual, the word itself, Origins. It comes from the Norse, actually, and it means to burn.

[00:03:59] Bruce Symbalisty: So then when [00:04:00] we look at kind of historically, what was it used for? I mean, we know that ranchers and cowboys branded cattle to identify it. And this is what's very important is when people saw that brand, they would know what that cattle livestock who it belonged to. And Also, when you saw that brand, you also knew whether that was a good person or bad person.

[00:04:25] Bruce Symbalisty: So this is why a brand actually does the heavy lifting of an organization because the brand in and of itself makes a business memorable. It helps encourage customers to buy from you and it supports marketing and advertising. And it has a lot of extension through organizations to all its stakeholders.

[00:04:47] Bruce Symbalisty: Holders internally and externally.

[00:04:50] Alison Simpson: So I would love for you each to share an example of a brand that is known for really driving business impact.

[00:04:59] Peter Rodriguez: [00:05:00] Well, I love to kick in with one example that continues to amaze me every time I talk about it. And, um, it's Apple. I continue to give them my money. Not because it's a better product, not because it's the better phone, but because the brand has captured what I want.

[00:05:18] Peter Rodriguez: They understand exactly what I want and not what I need. And I think that this is a very important distinction. We try so hard to get people to buy the things that we think they need. When in reality, people buy and pay a premium for the things that they want. And usually those wants Are the source of this economic value that brands create the value that you perceive from Apple.

[00:05:44] Peter Rodriguez: That's what you pay for. And I'd like to make this the key example. It's perceived value that separates brands. It's not product value. And one of the things that I'd like to share as part of the value that I perceive from Apple is the [00:06:00] simplification of technology. I am not a techie guy. I don't know much about it, but I know that if I have Apple on my side, They will take care of me.

[00:06:08] Peter Rodriguez: I will call a human. We'll always answer. They will stay with me until I fix my problem. And that value is priceless. Will I throw in 2, 000 for a new phone? Yeah. Next time I will. And with a smile, I will be very happy to drop that money because of the value I perceive from them. Might not be the value of the product, but the perceived value is crucial.

[00:06:29] Peter Rodriguez: So that to me is one of the many examples that I think that I, as a marketer can learn from, it's not the product. Okay. It never is. It's about the perceived value that we get from the brands.

[00:06:41] Alison Simpson: That's a great example. And the fact that they can command such a premium and we're willing to pay it with a smile speaks volumes.

[00:06:47] Alison Simpson: So Bruce, what would you add to that?

[00:06:49] Bruce Symbalisty: Apple has invested a lot into their brand. Apple created the unboxing experience through brand and people created anticipation and love [00:07:00] for it. And so that's what I think is very exciting about how they, they have made changes by springboarding off of what their brand means.

[00:07:10] Bruce Symbalisty: But, you know, if, when we look at other consumer brands, like I'll say Fenty cosmetics, they changed the world of cosmetics by introducing 40 shades of foundation in beauty for all. And in making, making it an inclusive product line, but interestingly enough, almost every other brand in the world now has followed suit and expanded their brands because of it, because it recognizes the consumer demand and value in individuality and a personal connection to their brand.

[00:07:44] Alison Simpson: Those are both such powerful examples and examples of literally billion, in one case, trillion dollar businesses that brands have helped build. So with those sorts of success stories, it's a bit surprising for me that in today's rapidly evolving [00:08:00] marketplace, it's being questioned, are brands still relevant?

[00:08:03] Alison Simpson: So two part question, why do you think the relevance of brands is being questioned today? And then let's answer the question, are brands today still relevant?

[00:08:12] Bruce Symbalisty: We live in a world where the time to tell stories now is shorter, attention spans are shorter, and so the marketplace has become very quick to make judgments because the access to information through social media channels, internet and websites, people can collect, choose and determine whether they trust you.

[00:08:35] Bruce Symbalisty: And so from a branding perspective, a brand needs to be strong, but people are questioning it because of the speed of the market is moving so quickly. Does a brand have time to take hold? Well, this is why it's even more important than ever to invest in brand. For that long term, long tail approach to an organization and a company.

[00:08:59] Bruce Symbalisty: And [00:09:00] so that's why I think it is relevant, but it's being questioned because organizations want short term results. They want, uh, they have to answer their quarterly stakeholder reports and those kinds of things. And they just don't perceive it as a deep value item. And this is coming as a generalism.

[00:09:19] Peter Rodriguez: I would add that one of the biggest challenges that we encounter is that, uh, in order to be relevant, we need to talk about what people care about.

[00:09:29] Peter Rodriguez: CEOs and CFOs care about the business results, care about the balance sheet and the cashflow and the profit and loss statement. Our brands are the engine. Any brand, not only our brands, any brand is the engine that generates that. And it's not the top line sales only. That's where I think that we have missed the boat.

[00:09:51] Peter Rodriguez: The conversation is not about creating volume at the top line. The biggest impact that marketing does is in creating that gross [00:10:00] margin. Gross margin is really when, when we start talking. And every time I have the opportunity to speak with CFOs or CEOs, the moment we start talking about margins, then the conversation becomes strategic.

[00:10:12] Peter Rodriguez: It becomes, help me. Increase my margins. How can I make them accretive? If we bring forward recommendations as marketers that can do that, then we get the center of attention. As in many organizations, that's still the case, so I don't think we're gonna, we're losing relevance and maybe brands are losing relevance because they're spoken outside of that correlation, causation.

[00:10:37] Peter Rodriguez: Between brand value in the minds of consumers, willingness to pay, and gross margins, which is what business leaders care about.

[00:10:47] Bruce Symbalisty: There are branding leaders, and then there's a, I'm going to call it a mushy middle, where there's a lot of. Branding that is occurring, either me to branding or, uh, [00:11:00] uh, where it is not as advanced as a brand that has been invested in.

[00:11:05] Bruce Symbalisty: And I think that that mushy middle has a lot of competition, a lot of confusion, and, uh, there, there's no leadership in that space.

[00:11:16] Alison Simpson: And there's such opportunity in the mushy middle for someone to actually. apply good business and brand principles and really differentiate themselves. Now, Peter, you've spent a lot of your career in top tier global brands, a lot of time with the C suite, and also living by the rule of quarterly results are paramount.

[00:11:36] Alison Simpson: So, you've got some great experience, and I'd love you to share how can marketers effectively measure the impact of Of brands on driving business results and what are the metrics that they should really be focused on?

[00:11:49] Peter Rodriguez: That's a great question. I, um, to your point, that was one of the biggest debates that we always have in the C suite and my, what I've learned is [00:12:00] that the conversation.

[00:12:02] Peter Rodriguez: Gets better when we start defining who is responsible for what, and I think that there is a big need to identify that the short term, the operating plan is mostly in the hands of sales for delivery, and it's not necessarily in the hands of marketing. It is, there is some level of that. Of impact. But the way that I have seen it happen in the companies where I've worked is that we need to create the environment so that the short term can happen.

[00:12:36] Peter Rodriguez: So marketing creates the strategies that will help create this value that we can convert every year into profit in the measurement of ROI. Has shifted from measuring the overall marketing mix, which includes product development, research and development, pricing, and all of the mix that we control down to just the ROI on [00:13:00] campaigns.

[00:13:00] Peter Rodriguez: And that should be in the tactical Area of the conversation. So I saw that and I still see today that when the conversation can be more clearly articulated in terms of, is this an operating thing that we're talking about for the quarter and we need to lap next year's quarter and make sure that we deliver growth.

[00:13:21] Peter Rodriguez: That's a whole different conversation. Then do we create the environment so that next quarter, like, A year from now in two years from now, we have the assets that allow us to deliver those results. That is the realm of strategic marketing. And when we start talking about those things. In collaboration with sales, then it becomes a much more measurable thing.

[00:13:47] Peter Rodriguez: So there are things that we are measuring that are not relevant. So for example, measuring only campaigns is limited, but for example, we're not measuring top of mind, share of mind, which is a [00:14:00] precursor of market share. Market share is one of the things that allows us to have longterm success. Those things.

[00:14:06] Peter Rodriguez: Are in the realm of marketing, those things are usually not talked about as the metrics in the short term. For example, repurchase rates. How are we predisposing people versus last year to prefer this brand at a higher price? That is an indicator of success next quarter and next year's quarters and the change in customer lifetime value.

[00:14:30] Peter Rodriguez: That is rarely talked about because those changes actually tell us if our marketing initiatives from product distribution, pricing, et cetera, are working. So, net net, I think that that conversation about incrementality. It's usually now outside of marketing. We don't get invited as many times. We are just like, well, here's your budget and make it happen.

[00:14:55] Peter Rodriguez: And what I see, unfortunately, is that now when we [00:15:00] call performance marketing, marketing, it's not really marketing. It is sales with a Facebook account or with an internet access, because they're working on the short term. They have to deliver now, which is great. We provide the foundation so that people want to pay more.

[00:15:18] Peter Rodriguez: Today, because we built that two years ago. And I think that that's a part that would benefit the conversations in the collaboration between sales and marketing. I clearly can see that in the operating plan and then marketing being primarily driving the strategic plan.

[00:15:35] Alison Simpson: Now, Bruce, you and your role from an agency perspective have worked across very diverse brands, very diverse industries.

[00:15:42] Alison Simpson: So I'd love you to share your thoughts on. What are the ways to effectively measure the impact of brands on driving business results?

[00:15:50] Bruce Symbalisty: Within the, the brand space, there's many metrics to be able to kind of look at how well a brand is doing over time, both [00:16:00] short term and long term. But the flip side of this particular coin is then moving into things like all the organizational financial metrics, of course, and that profit margins and, and revenue growth and those kinds of things.

[00:16:15] Bruce Symbalisty: And then aligning things that are customer acquisition costs. People often don't think about what happens. Let's say you're selling a very sophisticated product and it takes a year to encourage somebody to sell. If you were able to shorten that timeline to six months, that has a huge impact on an organization and brings customers in faster.

[00:16:39] Bruce Symbalisty: And if a brand supports that. To the sales team, that's a powerful metric. So there's many others as well, but these kinds of metrics, I think, support the case for a brand working with other departments in an organization.

[00:16:55] Alison Simpson: Now, Peter, earlier in our conversation, you shared your, part of your definition [00:17:00] of brand was it's a shortcut.

[00:17:01] Alison Simpson: I would build on that and say a brand is also. Protects you against reputational risk. And certainly we've got examples from years ago with Tylenol, a Canadian example with make believe where there was a significant business issue that many companies never would have recovered from, but the power of their brand was a key.

[00:17:22] Alison Simpson: Asset in their ability to recover. So do you want to share a little bit about that?

[00:17:27] Peter Rodriguez: You mentioned Tylenol and that is very close to my heart. That's one of the brands that I've had the privilege of running. And I had the opportunity to learn the Credo, the Credo from J& J. Started to be even more relevant because of that horrible situation that they had to face in the eighties when someone tampered with the product and there was human impact to the worst of the worst kind.

[00:17:55] Peter Rodriguez: But the one thing that I took away from learning the [00:18:00] creator is that what did the CEO do when things go bad and there is a need to leverage the brand value. To save a company. He went on live TV at that time. There was no social media. He immediately said, we're recalling everything. And then we're going to take action to make sure that you are safe.

[00:18:20] Peter Rodriguez: So he took care of the brand first. He said, Tylenol is going to be out for a while. I don't know for how long, because we're recalling everything, but we will come back and we, your trust is the most important thing. And within a lightning speed period, they came back and they relaunched the brand and they recovered all of the market share and they became the top brand again.

[00:18:44] Peter Rodriguez: And it was not the product. At the end of the day, the product, um, had to, you know, some safety measures had to be. Updated, but the value of the brand rested also on how people reacted. And that taught me [00:19:00] something. It is not what we sell. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. It's how we do it. And it's how the brand does things.

[00:19:07] Peter Rodriguez: They said, this is how we're going to make it stand for you. This is how we're going to fix this. And this is how you're going to love it again. So I think that that level of. Commitment in understanding the value of branding from the highest levels of our organizations. Is something that will help not only our profession, we in Canada are facing a crisis of productivity.

[00:19:34] Peter Rodriguez: Why? Because we are not creating enough value. In my opinion, by creating this value with brands is how we start reversing that. This is how we start creating something people want to pay more for. Not only in Canada, but we can do that with the globe.

[00:19:50] Alison Simpson: Now the three of us have built our careers on.

[00:19:55] Alison Simpson: Understanding and leveraging the critical role that marketing has in driving [00:20:00] business success. And we all fundamentally believe in the very important role brands have in delivering on that. Many, many of our listeners, if not all of our listeners will feel exactly the same way. Yet when you open it up to the broader business community, that is not as obvious or evident.

[00:20:17] Alison Simpson: So Bruce, I'd love you to kick off the answer to this question. As marketers, what do we need to do to ensure that brands are seen as mission critical to business success?

[00:20:27] Bruce Symbalisty: I know that brand in and of itself is misunderstood within organizations. And so having Education and having a concerted effort within an organization and with internal stakeholders is paramount to really kind of ingrain the understanding of how brand Integrates within an organization and has a lot of touch points, everything from [00:21:00] the strategic planning within an organization with strategies and innovation and how it communicates to the organization's Culture, which helps kind of build that team relationship of working together for that result of value driven results within an organization, but it goes beyond that, Allison, you know, product innovation, the consumer experience, the moment of purchase.

[00:21:30] Bruce Symbalisty: And then ultimately business results is when brand is working with all of them. And what I, what I would suggest is, you know, even just a listening ear to have this ear of branding to what work is being done with an organization can actually be very powerful to generate ideas and move things forward.

[00:21:56] Alison Simpson: Well, very well said. Now, Peter, I know. You and I connect on the [00:22:00] importance of speaking the language of business. So I would love you to add your thoughts too.

[00:22:04] Peter Rodriguez: Of course. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I will build on the point before, uh, of literacy in the C suite, knowing our audience is crucial, our audience is not speaking the language that we speak internally as marketers.

[00:22:21] Peter Rodriguez: Therefore, if we speak this dialect of marketing, if I, If I may use that word and don't translate it into the common business language. We don't have to go crazy about the numbers in order to explain what we say, but we have to be very clear in using one very simple tool. The biggest tool that I have used as a marketer in order to persuade the decisions on investment in marketing is a Proforma P& L.

[00:22:52] Peter Rodriguez: A Proforma P& L is the simplest, most powerful slice. That will get [00:23:00] the attention from the C suite. My suggestion is that we marketers could use only five lines. Top line, cost of goods, gross margin, marketing, investment, and EBITDA. In other words, before interest, taxes, and depreciation. If we can show those two, one without my idea.

[00:23:19] Peter Rodriguez: One with my idea side by side, there is no way that people will not stop and listen in the C suite. So when I say speaking the language of business, I don't mean we have to speak cash flow all the time. No, it is just one of the biggest advocates for one of the biggest relaunches I had the opportunity to do in our market was a CFO.

[00:23:42] Peter Rodriguez: And he wanted me in his office because I only spoke about by making these changes, by doing this, we're going to get people to buy more for more money, more frequently on a higher margin. This is [00:24:00] how your P& L is going to look like. Don't do it. And we're going to end up this way. That simple, and it was one page and it was the page that I was using all the time for that.

[00:24:11] Peter Rodriguez: And that was a major shifting strategy because it would shift this brand from a cash cow into an investor and obviously they listen because we were talking only the business, the language of business. We're not talking, make this brand bigger, make this brand more relevant. No, we were talking about, this is what's going to happen with everything that we're doing at language of business in action, I believe is something that would benefit all of us.

[00:24:36] Peter Rodriguez: Because it's irresistible. Actually, it is the most charming piece of communication. We can have is a proforma PNL

[00:24:44] Alison Simpson: that is such a powerful example, and it also reinforces as marketers. One of the core skills we have in areas of expertise is our ability to analyze the situation, analyze it. And audience and understand how to be [00:25:00] relevant and compelling to them.

[00:25:01] Alison Simpson: So we do such a good job of that in our external efforts, but we don't always take the time or make it a priority to really do that with our internal stakeholders and truly understand what will be compelling to them and speak in a language that a CEO can understand. So Bruce, I'd love to turn it over to you.

[00:25:20] Alison Simpson: We've talked a little bit about performance marketing. The reality in a good economy and even more so in a challenging economy is that delivering short term business results is mission critical as well as ensuring that the business is well positioned for long term growth. So how can marketers balance that pressure for short term results and quarterly performance along with the need for long term brand building?

[00:25:47] Bruce Symbalisty: The ability to design a preferred future and model where you want to go strategically Is part of that overall or overarching [00:26:00] strategy, the marketplace is going to determine and look at the brand of itself and choose whether to authenticate it. And trust. We have to remember, although we're selling business to business or business to consumer, we're still selling to humans and humans are emotional.

[00:26:20] Bruce Symbalisty: Humans make choices. Like Peter said, though, there are the humans that look at analytics and data and make choices based on that, but when I look at it from an internal perspective, it is about education. And when Peter's talking about literacy, he's talking also about education, and I really do believe that.

[00:26:43] Bruce Symbalisty: Uh, as marketers and as branders, networking internally within your company with other departments and people and let them understand the value that you drive within an [00:27:00] organization as a brander and as a marketer, and I know that those are soft skills, not necessarily analytical skills, but what they do is they start to build consensus.

[00:27:12] Bruce Symbalisty: And within an organization, the greatest thing you can do is have everybody rowing in the right and same direction. And that's consensus. And then that's how, that's how I look at it.

[00:27:24] Alison Simpson: Great perspective. And I would also add to that the power of any short term tactical marketing, any performance marketing will always be stronger when it's leveraging a strong, powerful brand and a deep relationship with the consumers that it's trying to attract.

[00:27:40] Alison Simpson: Peter, I'd love your thoughts on this as well.

[00:27:42] Peter Rodriguez: When there is bad marketing, when there is lazy marketing, there is no way that we can deliver the short term. Then that's when we start delivering it. You know how? Price, and that's the worst place where if you want to be now, I think that when we do have a [00:28:00] strong, the opposite that I said before, when we do have a foundation of a strong brand value plan, and we can prove as marketers that we have persuaded people to be predisposed to paying what the value of the brand is, then sales has a much easier order.

[00:28:19] Peter Rodriguez: Thank you. Not easier, but better way to do things. The biggest challenges that I have encountered in my career in this company is when I come to a place where they say, well, we're having a hard time and we cannot reach the quota for the quarter and we don't, we don't, we don't have promotions. We only have loyalty programs that we can push is it?

[00:28:41] Peter Rodriguez: Well, what are we saying? When we have nothing to say about the brand, that is the worst thing, because that should have started two years ago, three years ago, building that value so that we can capitalize on that. But you know, that strategy is, cannot be made in one quarter, not even in one year. Sometimes it has to be proven, tested, [00:29:00] developed, changed, updated.

[00:29:02] Peter Rodriguez: By the time we go to the reset, the shelf reset, then sales is so powerful. That they get what they need. And we sell a lot more and we sell at a higher level and we sell at a higher price point. What we do with pricing and validate the pricing structure takes time. Distribution or availability of services or products or whatever is it that we're selling takes time.

[00:29:29] Peter Rodriguez: But when it's done well, then sales can go and execute the quarterly gains in the targets don't become so hard to achieve if we have that foundation.

[00:29:40] Bruce Symbalisty: Going off of what Peter was talking about is generating value in the short term, you know, immediate sales and driving traffic through campaigns. Those kinds of things are going to continue to remain, but what we're seeing is a transition to a long term relationships.

[00:29:59] Bruce Symbalisty: And [00:30:00] a very current example is Jameson Vitamin Supplements. Is actually now investing into their brand by taking investors behind the scenes on how they manufacture their product with high quality ingredients, because they are actually seeing that the marketplace is requiring that and demanding that.

[00:30:24] Bruce Symbalisty: And I believe like what Peter said, they're looking into the future. Several years. They're setting the table for that because that's what a leader does.

[00:30:35] Alison Simpson: Thank you both. That's very valuable insights were shared through that and Peter building on your comment around the drug of discounting. It's obviously not good from a margin perspective.

[00:30:45] Alison Simpson: The other risk following that strategy is you're teaching your consumers that if they want your product, just wait another week or another month, because it's bound to go on sale. And that's really hard to recover. I knew the time would fly by with the 2 of you. And that has definitely been the case today.

[00:30:59] Alison Simpson: So before I [00:31:00] let you go on with your busy days, I would love to close off today's discussion by having you each share a piece of advice that you would provide for our listeners. Bruce, why don't you kick us off?

[00:31:10] Bruce Symbalisty: I believe that the greatest thing to do is to give it away. So give away your knowledge, share your knowledge, mentor people within your organization on branding.

[00:31:24] Bruce Symbalisty: I believe that this will be highly influential. And building a strong culture around what it means to belong to a brand, to a company, and that will have a halo effect that will affect everyone and be very powerful and influential. I believe. The greatest skill is to work together and to collaborate to create new spaces for creating value.

[00:31:55] Bruce Symbalisty: And that's how companies of the future will succeed. That's how [00:32:00] marketers will succeed is through collaboration and working together and lifting each other up. And I think that that is, that is my advice.

[00:32:12] Alison Simpson: That is great advice. Thanks, Bruce.

[00:32:15] Peter Rodriguez: One of the biggest piece of advice that I would give is go and spend time with your consumer.

[00:32:20] Peter Rodriguez: Don't try to know them through research. I mean, research is good and I will always support it. But just go out and do shop alongs. If you sell stuff for, Breakfast, go have breakfast with them and just watch them spend time in. If you are in consumer packaged goods, just spend time in off rails, in food basics, in Metro, in Costco, and just watch people.

[00:32:42] Peter Rodriguez: I do, I still do that. I just go there and I'm just watching people. So I find it fascinating how. They make decisions. And the last thing, be passionate about marketing, love marketing,

[00:32:53] Bruce Symbalisty: breathe marketing, eat marketing, but, but don't freak, don't forget to sleep. [00:33:00] Okay. Dream marketing. Yeah.

[00:33:04] Alison Simpson: Remember it's a marathon and sprinting a marathon.

[00:33:06] Alison Simpson: I know from firsthand experience is virtually impossible. So great advice to both of you. Thank you for a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you have a great afternoon.

[00:33:15] Peter Rodriguez: Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity and thanks for, thanks for having me. Thanks, Bruce. Thanks, Allison.

[00:33:22] Bruce Symbalisty: Thank you, Allison. Thank you, Peter.

[00:33:28] Narrator: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA. ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

Is brand love measurable magic or marketing myth? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson and Elemental's VP of Client Services, Justin Haberman, dissect the power of emotional connections in business. Discover why brand love matters, how to quantify it, and the touch points for fostering lasting consumer relationships.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:22 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. W ith your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:00 - 00:00:42:18 Alison Today's episode is all about brand love and building deep emotional connections between brands and the consumers in a very fast paced, results driven marketing landscape. And joining me today is Justin Haberman, who is the Vice President of Client Services at Elemental. He's also a member of our CMA Brand Council. Justin has a real passion for creating these lasting bonds between brands and their customers.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:03:12 Alison Justin's also worked on both the brand and the agency side of the marketing. We share that in common, and he's run and managed PnLs for leading brands in highly competitive sectors. So he really understands the importance of brands delivering ROI as well. He also brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to the table. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this very important topic with him.

00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:12 Alison And in the episode, we're going to dive into the concept of brand love. We're going to explore why it matters more than ever in today's marketing landscape and its role in building business. Justin will also share his thoughts on the difference between brand love and brand loyalty, and how marketers can effectively measure and quantify the impact of brand love on their business.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:20 Alison Welcome, Justin. It's great to have you with us today. 00:01:25:22 - 00:01:30:06 Justin Thank you. What a great introduction. I am very excited to talk brand love today.

00:01:30:08 - 00:01:38:02 Alison Well, let's dive right in. I want to start by having you define brand love, and how in your mind it differs from brand loyalty.

00:01:38:04 - 00:01:57:15 Justin So yeah, I think it's a good question because at one point in time, you know, loyalty and love were one and the same. And they both measured brand loyalty. But nowadays, as we've, you know, started innovating the way we can measure loyalty, there's been a divide where loyalty can be more of a purchase loyalty or behavioural loyalty.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:07:00 Justin And those are things that we can easily measure, where brand love is more of an attitudinal loyalty, and it's a deeper emotional connection to one's brand.

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:36:03 Alison I think that's a such a great observation, when I also think about loyalty versus brand love. There are brands like Ferrari that many people have great affection for, and brand love for doesn't necessarily translate to purchase affinity. And then there are other brands where loyalty can be incentives through different loyalty programs. So that's a different kind of loyalty that probably comes with affection, but doesn't necessarily have to come with brand love.

00:02:36:05 - 00:03:05:08 Justin Well, exactly. And, you know, there are things like you mentioned that can be incentivized. And some of those things can actually take us down the wrong path, because, you know, one may be loyal to a brand because of a promotion or convenience or even proximity, but those aren't necessarily true measurements of brand love or brand loyalty. You know, a good example that I like to give is an analogy of how I choose my barber.

00:03:05:13 - 00:03:25:05 Justin Right? So I've been going to the same barber for the last year, and it's not necessarily because I'm extremely loyal to him. You know, if he were to move a city away, I wouldn't follow him. I go to this barber time and time again because it's easy for me. It's right down the street. And, you know, for something like a haircut, I don't want it to take up too much in my day.

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:42:01 Justin So if you looked at the metrics that are available, engagement or purchase, you're going to see, wow, Justin's really loyal to his barber, but it, on the other end of it I'm really not. And so I think there is a false measurement that a lot of marketers lean on, which can get us into trouble.

00:03:42:03 - 00:04:00:06 Alison I love your barber example because based on your description, which I think is a very astute one, I actually do have brand love for my stylist because I moved and now it's a, instead of being a ten minute commute, it's a 40 minute commute. Yet they still have my business. So it's such a great example of the difference between loyalty and brand love, for sure.

00:04:00:07 - 00:04:13:12 Alison So why do you believe that focusing on building brand love and emotional connections with consumers is the greatest opportunity for marketers, especially when we're in a world very much focused on short term results and sales numbers?

00:04:13:14 - 00:04:34:06 Justin Right. Yeah, and it's a discussion that I have quite a bit. I mean, it's really easy when you need to answer to shareholders or managing your PnL. It's really easy to look to the short term results. You know, how do I hit my numbers this quarter? Unfortunately, you know, when you start taking that approach, it's this never-ending race to chase sales.

00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:13 Justin And it can be very reactionary. And so the value that comes from building a brand or focusing on brand love is it's a little bit of like a cheat code or a shortcut for driving future sales. And I really encourage marketers to take that approach and be a little bit more proactive in how they invest in that approach.

00:04:56:14 - 00:05:17:05 Justin So, you know, another analogy or example I'll give is, you know, why do we put away money for retirement? It's really easy to spend money on the things we need or want right now, but we invest in a retirement fund to make our lives easier in the future. And that is kind of how I would encourage a lot of marketers to look at brand building efforts.

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:41:18 Justin It's making our future lives easier, more profitable. It's going to be a lot easier to obtain new clients or new customers and retain new clients and customers. So there's a lot of value that comes from that. And on top of that, I think a lot of people these days, especially the younger generation, they really want to love a brand and they really want love to be returned back to them

00:05:41:18 - 00:05:45:15 Justin if they're going to invest that time and effort into a brand.

00:05:45:17 - 00:06:18:22 Alison So I've been in the CMO seat in very competitive sectors before, so I've felt the heat firsthand. I'm a big, big proponent and believer in the power of brand. I've also faced the pressure of quarterly monthly sales results and delivering results, so it's always helpful to have proven examples or any starts too, that our listeners can leverage with some of their maybe skeptical colleagues or with the executive suite to really help validate why investing in brand is so important.

00:06:18:23 - 00:06:24:00 Alison If you have any cases or stats that you could share, that would be, I know our listeners would love to get their hands on it.

00:06:24:02 - 00:06:53:09 Justin Yeah, of course. I mean, I've looked at a few different stats over the years. One that jumps out is close to 90% of consumers are prepared to love a brand, and they want that type of relationship with their brand. That's a huge number that speaks volumes to how we need to build and foster those types of relationships. You know, a lot of people are investing, like I mentioned before, time, money, etc. and they want to do it for brands that live up to their values, share the same beliefs.

00:06:53:11 - 00:07:16:08 Justin So that's one that comes to mind. Another one is probably on the more you know, profitable side. When you invest in a brand, it's a lot easier to make more money. And you know, we see that with some numbers that I've come across in terms of, you know, it's a, it's seven times easier to sell to an existing customer than to try and sell to a new customer.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:18:11 Justin So those are just a couple that pop out.

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:28:15 Alison So you've compared building brand love to building interpersonal relationships. And I think that's a very apt analogy. Can you elaborate a bit on the analogy and also share some of the different stages involved?

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:49:21 Justin Yeah, I'm glad you called that out because, you know, when we talk brand building, it's one thing to get people on board with the value of it, but then it's another thing to try to explain how do you achieve it? There's a lot that goes into building brand love, and I think because of that, a lot of people are hesitant or scared to dive into it.

00:07:49:21 - 00:08:18:04 Justin And so, like you mentioned, the the analogy to building interpersonal love is a good way to remind people how easy it can be. We're all experts at it already. It doesn't have to be this daunting task. We've all, you know, dated, we've all fallen in love with someone. Well, at least most people have. And so, you know, if you start looking into how that relationship evolves, you can translate that into some of the things you need to do as a brand.

00:08:18:06 - 00:08:41:07 Justin Simon Sinek, marketing guru, author. He talks about how to grow love and I really liked his explanation of how to do that. He talked about how love doesn't happen overnight. It's not a moment in time, you know, you don't love your husband or wife or significant other because of one giant thing they did. It's a lot of little things that add up over time that people remember.

00:08:41:07 - 00:09:05:18 Justin And that's what, you know, creates love in these relationships. So I really encourage a lot of brand marketers to look at their brand-building efforts in a similar way. You know, look at all the touch points and where you can build love over time and comparing it to how love grows, you know, from a personal standpoint. You start by dating someone before you get married.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:32:02 Justin And there's kind of three stages of love. There's the initial passion, lust phase. And this is where you're trying to, you know, create an attraction with someone. And from a brand perspective, this is where you want to get them excited about your brand. Promote trial. Get them to try it for the first time. And then you move to this intimacy stage where it's all about closeness and connectivity and building that relationship.

00:09:32:07 - 00:10:01:15 Justin And from a brand perspective, you know, this is where you start looking at usage frequency, getting people to break routines, get them to adopt you in their everyday lives. And only once those two things have happened can you start moving to the decision or commitment phase. You know, from a personal standpoint, this is maybe the big marriage proposal, but from a brand perspective, this is when brand love really happens and when people are truly loyal to you or a product or a brand that you're promoting.

00:10:01:17 - 00:10:21:13 Alison Building on the analogy, sadly, one in two marriages ends in divorce, and brands also can run the risk of their consumers divorcing them. So what can be done to help prevent divorce or losing that connection and that level of love from your audience and consumers, once you have it.

00:10:21:15 - 00:10:47:06 Justin Right, it can come and go pretty quickly. And so I think to prevent any kind of divorce or disengagement, you need to remember that this is a never-ending job. Just because you won someone as a customer or just because you got married to them, it doesn't mean that the job is over. In my opinion, that's the moment where the job is just beginning, and that's where we need to focus more of our efforts, right?

00:10:47:06 - 00:11:06:22 Justin You need to continually keep people guessing, coming out with new things, finding new ways to exchange ideas. All of that comes in really handy with keeping people connected and engaged. And I think that's why, like, social media has gained so much popularity, because it is a way to do exactly that.

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:14:02 Alison So is brand love feasible for all products? And especially when I think about ones that are much more commoditized and mass?

00:11:14:04 - 00:11:49:05 Justin I would say for sure. There's a reason why entire industries have been built on brand love. You know, I look at the streetwear industry and how brands like Supreme can sell a plain white t-shirt for 80, 100, multiple hundred dollars. It's because of the brand they've been able to build. You know, you also look at examples like No Frills, which is a value brand, private label brand that typically or traditionally has never had a huge emotional connection with it.

00:11:49:06 - 00:12:10:17 Justin They've been able to do a great job. And kudos to the marketers on on that team for building a relationship with their audience. You know, they were able to look at some universal truths that existed of how people looked at private label brands and kind of spin it on their head and, and take ownership of how people like to shop and, and how people can feel proud about finding a deal.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:18:06 Justin And, and that's just another example of, you know, I think every product, every service, can have a brand.

00:12:18:08 - 00:12:33:04 Alison Those are great examples, Justin. So it's obviously important for marketing to demonstrate business impact. And that can also be more challenging for brand marketing. So what are your thoughts on measuring the ROI of brand-building efforts, and what metrics or tools would you recommend?

00:12:33:06 - 00:12:58:12 Justin It's a very, very tough one, for sure, because everyone wants to find that return on investment, and with something like brand-building, it can be more difficult, but there's places to look right. Things like attitudinal surveys are a great way to to measure it. Things like reputation quotients that go into really understanding, like the emotional quality of an experience and not just surface level things.

00:12:58:12 - 00:13:25:07 Justin So I urge people not to get caught up in some other measurements, like engagement or retention, because like we mentioned before, it can be a little misleading. But to elaborate on on this, I also think, there's two other points that I want to mention. One is, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to. You know, we as marketers, we're also salespeople, and we need to figure out how to talk about things in a way that resonates with our audience.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:47:15 Justin And so if you're talking to a CFO, your answer may be a little different than if you're talking to, you know, a marketing director. I'm just picking positions, but you really need to talk about things in a way that is going to matter to the people you're talking to. So an example of that would be if I was talking to a CFO, I was talking to someone who really cared about the numbers.

00:13:47:17 - 00:14:10:04 Justin I would start trying to connect the dots and what my brand building efforts could do. So, you know, if I can drive future demand and I can measure that through unaided awareness, I maybe can then link it to, well, if people have a higher unaided awareness, what's their cost per acquisition? And does that start going down because they're now further down the funnel?

00:14:10:04 - 00:14:35:11 Justin And if their cost per acquisition goes down, does that mean that they have a higher consumer lifetime value? I'm just throwing out measurements right now, but looking at different metrics along a full path can be a way to answer that for someone who's very number-driven. Whereas on the flip side, the other way to look at it is to spin it on its head and kind of remind people of why they make certain purchases.

00:14:35:13 - 00:14:57:01 Justin You know, why have you made certain decisions? Why have you chosen one product or one brand over another? And once you start relating it back to people's personal experiences there, there is a light bulb switch moment where they realize, well, actually, brands do have an effort. And even though I may not be able to measure the way I want to measure it, it still matters.

00:14:57:03 - 00:15:26:12 Alison There is skepticism around why brands important, and it's it's still too often thought of as, if you have money left over invest in brand, which is completely backwards thinking. But when you're working on monthly sales reports, when you're reporting to a board on a quarterly basis, showing quarterly results becomes your Kryptonite in many ways. So and if you layer on top of that, a tough economy, the brand budget can be one of the first things that gets cut.

00:15:26:14 - 00:15:39:19 Alison So the power in your example with Supreme and No Frills was given to very easy to understand examples of how they have defended their business and profited by investing in brand.

00:15:39:21 - 00:16:05:06 Justin I mean, a couple other brands that come to mind, with one that jumps out is something like Heinz and their their efforts in building brand and the amount of money they put behind their brand-building efforts. You know, I think of the one campaign that was Draw Ketchup. I forget if that's the exact title of the campaign, but when, you know, they went to market and asked people to draw ketchup, the first thing people drew was a Heinz bottle.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:33:02 Justin And that just shows the power of brand-building and how it can help elicit a deep-rooted connection with people that doesn't leave their mind. And it keeps the brand top of mind. And when the brand's top of mind, they walk into a store and the first thing they see is something that's recognizable, like a Heinz ketchup bottle, they're going to go grab that off shelf versus having to put in the time to do more research to educate themselves on the qualities of different ketchup bottles.

00:16:33:04 - 00:16:41:08 Justin Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's a shortcut moment that makes selling much, much easier and much cheaper.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:58:15 Alison That's a great example. And the other Heinz campaign that I love, that was really built on a universal truth, is that behind the back-of-the-house, in a restaurant. You see people with Heinz bottles filling it with generic ketchup. And I waitressed my way through school to pay my own way. And we actually did that.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:15:07 Alison And then you would take out to the table, and there were customers that absolutely knew when they turned over that Heinz bottle, if the ketchup was coming out too fast, it wasn't the real thing. And they called us on it. So that's such a powerful example of why brands are important and how it does ultimately drive strong business results as well.

00:17:15:07 - 00:17:17:22 Alison And that's also a great example of brand love.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:44:06 Justin Exactly. I mean, another example that comes to mind is the Pepsi versus Coke battle. And it's been going on for years and years and years. But there are some very strong, loyal Coca-Cola drinkers that wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Pepsi, but all of a sudden Pepsi launches the Pepsi Taste Challenge and they do a blind tasting and they get people to decide what is actually their preferred flavour of cola.

00:17:44:08 - 00:17:59:19 Justin And, you know, they ended up going with Pepsi. And that's an example that shows that, you know, a loyal customer can be so strong-minded, so stuck in their way that they're not willing to try anything else. And sometimes we need to force them that there may be better options out there.

00:17:59:21 - 00:18:17:17 Alison And my ultimate test for the Pepsi and Coke challenge is if you're out for dinner with friends and someone asks for a Coke and they say, sorry, we only have Pepsi. How often do they say, well, that's all right. And I have friends who say, no thanks and will completely change to another drink, whereas lots of friends will just say, okay, that's all right.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:21:14 Justin Right. Exactly what, what kind of cola drink are you?

00:18:21:16 - 00:18:24:23 Alison I'm actually not a pop drinker.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:31:06 Justin Well, I'm one of those shifting loyals where I will go wherever the availability exists.

00:18:31:08 - 00:18:39:08 Alison But, yeah, when you meet people that are truly in love with either Coke or Pepsi, it's pretty, as marketers, it's pretty motivating to see, too.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:07:02 Justin Well, and that's the golden ticket, right? As a marketer, that's the the end game. That's what we're trying to achieve, is get someone to become so loyal with our brand that they're willing to, you know, abandon everything else for the brand. And, you know, when that happens and we can create that sense of loyalty. We're not only closing a sale, but we're also creating an army of ambassadors or advocates of a brand that will do a lot of our heavy lifting for us.

00:19:07:04 - 00:19:23:10 Justin So we as marketers have an easier job because all these loyals that exist out there are selling the brand, promoting the brand, pushing it to their friends and family at zero cost to us. And that, to me is like the epitome of marketing.

00:19:23:12 - 00:19:31:18 Alison Absolutely. And no matter how good we are as marketers, we will never have the same credibility as a friend recommending something.

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:50:23 Justin Correct. Yeah. It's, it's funny. And that's where I think a lot of brands who've seen success on a lot of social channels like Instagram or TikTok, they've done really well where they don't try and speak to people. They try and engage people in a natural, authentic community dialog.

00:19:51:01 - 00:20:09:23 Alison So I want to switch gears a little bit. You've got a great career, tremendous experience. So I'd love to wrap up our session today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners that are looking to continue to evolve their careers and flourish the same way that you have.

00:20:10:01 - 00:20:42:06 Justin One piece of advice... it would probably be the fact that we need to remember that we're communicating to humans. You know, a lot of this discussion today has been around building an emotional connection. And we as humans want that. We crave that. And we're not always rational people. We are sometimes irrational. And I think sometimes we can forget that because as marketers, we want to measure things and we talk about users or visitors, and it takes us away from the human element.

00:20:42:07 - 00:20:55:02 Justin And I think once we remember that we're talking to humans and we ourselves as humans and we go through life and we make decisions the way we do, it allows us to make decisions that are better for our customers, our consumers.

00:20:55:04 - 00:21:11:15 Alison There's actually some great research that validates what you're talking about from an emotional versus rational decision-making. Most human beings primarily decide based on emotion and then justify the decision through rational reasons. So it's, it's great advice on a bunch of fronts.

00:21:11:17 - 00:21:26:13 Justin It really is important to continue to have this on our forefront as we look to plan all our marketing initiatives, you know, not forgetting how the long term can aid short term results and vice versa. It's a really, really important topic.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:37:17 Alison I absolutely agree, you can't draw down on brand equity if you haven't built it in the first place. So Justin, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I really appreciate you sharing your love of brand love and your experiences with us today.

00:21:37:19 - 00:21:43:06 Justin Thank you. Yeah, really appreciate the chat.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:55:22 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CMA's CEO, and Dave Burnett, CEO of AOK Marketing, delve into the rise of generative AI and its transformative effect on B2B marketing. The discussion touches on the importance of complying with company guidelines, the rapid advancement of AI tools, and how maintaining a curious mindset is essential for marketers to stay ahead in an ever-evolving industry.

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;20;04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00;00;20;06 - 00;00;45;16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of AI and its transformative impact on B2B marketing. I'm joined today by Dave Burnett, the founder and CEO of AOK Marketing, a conversion-focused digital agency. Dave's also a board member for EO, the entrepreneur's organization. Dave definitely qualifies as an early adopter and thought leader in the AI space. He's been part of OpenAI's beta testing since 2019.

00;00;45;18 - 00;01;14;09 Alison He also teaches two of our CMA Gen AI training courses and brings a wealth of experience and insights to the table today. Throughout, our conversation will follow Dave's personal journey with AI from his days as an early tester with OpenAI to now using AI tools in his everyday work. He'll share the story of his a-ha moment when ChatGPT, a conversational AI tool, dramatically impacted his business and how he chose to embrace the technology and adapt to strategies in response.

00;01;14;11 - 00;01;45;19 Alison As we explore the unique use cases and opportunities for AI in the B2B space, Dave is going to provide some great examples of how companies of different sizes are building AI-powered solutions. We'll also discuss the caution and hesitation often present at the executive level. So for marketers who may be a bit intimidated or reluctant to start experimenting with AI, Dave also offers practical advice on getting started on treating AI models like highly-educated new employees, and helpful tips for how to interact with these tools to get the best results.

00;01;45;22 - 00;01;48;23 Alison Welcome, Dave. I'm thrilled to have you joining me today.

00;01;48;25 - 00;01;53;16 Dave Thanks so much Alison, and I really appreciate the invite. And yeah, I'm excited about our conversation today.

00;01;53;23 - 00;02;05;24 Alison Me too. So let's start by having you walk us through your personal journey from AI, from being an early beta tester with OpenAI to now using Gen AI tools in your everyday work.

00;02;05;26 - 00;02;27;06 Dave So I actually found out about OpenAI a long time ago, back when Elon Musk was founding it. And I thought, hey, this is a really interesting thing. So I signed up to be an early beta tester. And just for clarity, I am not in any way technical. I'm a marketer. I'm not one of those technical marketers, really, who gets deep down into programming.

00;02;27;08 - 00;02;47;19 Dave So this was just something that was an interest of mine back in the day. And so OpenAI came out. I got accepted into the beta program. Obviously they had low bar, a low bar back at that point. And when I got accepted in, it was really exciting for me. And they had already launched a couple of language models, so ChatGPT clawed a bunch of these,

00;02;47;19 - 00;03;08;17 Dave others are all large language models. And when people are talking about AI, they can talk about a and a bunch of different ways. But the most common and prevalent way that people are thinking about it today is as a large language model. So the first language model they came out with was called Ada, Ada. And then the second one they came out was called Babbage.

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;24;09 Dave And the third one that came out with was called Curie. So you'll notice the A, B, C. And then they came out with DaVinci. And as I was going through all these, I mean, they were terrible. You know, they couldn't do anything. You're in there playing around and you know, it just okay, this doesn't do what I want it to do.

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;47;19 Dave And all of a sudden, OpenAI launched ChatGPT, and it was exponentially better than anything else that we've seen in the world. So what I realized in that in that timeline was this is a tool I can use. But the problem was everybody else realized it was a tool they could use, too. And so one of the things that we do as a digital agency is content.

00;03;47;21 - 00;04;09;09 Dave And all of a sudden, so it was released the end of November, ChatGPT. By the end of January, we lost all of our content clients. So we lost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of revenue, because of this tool. So that was my a-ha moment. The less polite word is the holy crap, you know.

00;04;09;10 - 00;04;28;22 Dave Oh my goodness moment. And as a result of that, I had to learn. I had to adapt. So I spent two weeks in February, right after it had been released, three months after it had been ChatGPT had been released just trying to get up fully up to speed because I was, you know, dabbling, I was dipping my toe in.

00;04;28;24 - 00;04;49;10 Dave And then I realized, all right, I'm now caught up. You know, I literally spent two weeks, I'm now caught up. And then in early March, of course, they released, GPT four. So it was a whole other exponential leap forward. But I had a foundation. What I realized is that everybody's on a bit of a journey when it comes to AI.

00;04;49;12 - 00;05;10;25 Dave So the stages of the AI adoption framework are fear, skepticism, holy crap, investigation, adoption and mastery. And everybody kind of goes through those, I've found. If you can see where your people or yourself are on this curve, you know what the next logical step is. And I love talking to the skeptics who are like, it's not that good.

00;05;10;29 - 00;05;24;29 Dave It's not going to get there. I'm like, okay, well, you just haven't had your holy shit moment yet. You know, it's something's going to have to do that for you. And once you do, then we'll have another conversation that'll be a different conversation. So hopefully that helps a little bit with the background of where I got to back then.

00;05;25;04 - 00;05;45;27 Alison It's it's a great story. And there is there's negative moments and there's positive. Wow, I finally figured out why everyone's so excited about this. You obviously had the more negative side and I can't imagine literally overnight a significant portion of your business vanishing. So I definitely want to talk a bit more about that. The other piece that I want to talk about,

00;05;46;04 - 00;06;08;15 Alison so in your journey, you very much were an early adopter. You weren't technical. So that gives all of the marketers listening who don't come from a technical background, comfort that you don't need to be technical. Even in the very early days of the beta testing you were doing with OpenAI. The piece you're not giving yourself credit for that I think is mission critical for everyone's journey is curiosity.

00;06;08;17 - 00;06;33;02 Alison Because if you weren't curious enough and open-minded enough to raise your hand and join the beta in 2019 for something that really none of us knew, understood, and certainly didn't at that point understand the potential of. So I think that's a really important part of the journey, where you're probably being a bit too much of a humble Canadian by not giving yourself the credit for that open-mindedness and curiosity and for everyone listening.

00;06;33;02 - 00;06;43;12 Alison I think those are such important elements, not just for being successful with new tools like Men AI, but for a successful career in marketing.

00;06;43;14 - 00;07;11;19 Dave No, I agree. Curiosity is a massive thing. I've always been curious. I'm always interested in what's new, what's coming, what's next? How can I do this? Because, to completely date myself. I graduated university before Google was invented. So the fact that I now own a digital conversion focused digital marketing agency, that's SEO. And, you know, like everything digital, it required a learning curve.

00;07;11;22 - 00;07;38;16 Dave You know, I mean, I remember Google launching. I remember, you know, when they bought what's now AdWords or Google Ads. I remember all those different things. And so seeing these things and realizing that I have to keep on top of them and doing my best to keep on top of these things is just what you have to do in order to be able to survive, because I don't know what's going to come out next week, next month, next year, and so it's all it's all exciting and to be honest, keeps it interesting.

00;07;38;21 - 00;07;51;09 Alison Absolutely agree. So after you did hit that brick wall that Get AI created in your content business, how did you pivot and where does your business stand now with leveraging Gen AI.

00;07;51;11 - 00;08;12;11 Dave So I use it every day. And so it's a tool. I look at it as say for example, you were a you were an author or writer. You would have Word open or Google Docs. Whatever you use as a marketer, you might have Canva open or Illustrator or whatever you might use if you're a on the design side or Figma or whatever tool that it is that you use in your, in your work.

00;08;12;13 - 00;08;43;23 Dave And so I've incorporated it into my work and it's just made me, me personally, exponentially more efficient. I can do the same amount of work in an hour that I used to do in an entire day, maybe multiple days. You know, a lot of my work, it tends to be on the, strategy side. It tends to be on the, you know, proposals and talking to people and understanding and taking giant amounts of information and condensing them down into information that people can understand.

00;08;43;23 - 00;09;12;19 Dave Because parts of SEO, parts of Google Ads, parts of conversion rate optimization can be very technical. It's really being able to say, look, you know, if you for content generation, for example, do stuff and then talk about the great stuff you've done, that's one element of it. But where AI comes into it is AI is great for doing foundational content, baseline content, you know, for example, in a promotional products business, what is embroidery?

00;09;12;23 - 00;09;34;28 Dave What is screen printing? You know, what is a t shirt made of? Like all those every business has its foundational content that you need. So how I'm using it today, I mentioned that I've got multiple tabs open, but it also is great for, you know, consolidating all those things and getting getting a good read on what's going on with those.

00;09;35;01 - 00;09;59;07 Dave So just to put it in a better example, if, for example, a news piece comes out around Google and for example, Google had an algorithm leak and their algorithm leak was highly technical, it was literally the way you could program into Google how how the search engine works. So I took that information. Not being a technical guy took all that information.

00;09;59;07 - 00;10;23;28 Dave I knew enough how to create a text document from it, put that into Google. And, you know, and I tried to figure out what it was, didn't know. So I then took that text document and put it into ChatGPT and said, what does this mean from an SEO perspective? And it spit out these five things. You know, technically you need to do this, local SEO, you need to do this, like all these different metrics and all these different instructions.

00;10;24;04 - 00;10;43;22 Dave And then I was able to dig down and dig down and dig down and then take that and actually apply it in my business and apply it for our clients. So it really is a great tool to be able to take massive amounts of information and make it, you know, dumb it down for me, just quite honestly. So yeah, it's a fun way to use it.

00;10;43;22 - 00;11;07;28 Alison We talk so much around the creative uses of ChatGPT, and certainly it's a tool that way as well. But you broadened it to a more, it's also very powerful from a strategic perspective, from a planning perspective in running a business. It's also an incredible efficiency play. So beyond the marketing capabilities and ways that ChatGPT can enable us in running a business and in managing a team, it can also be incredibly powerful.

00;11;07;28 - 00;11;11;08 Alison So I appreciate you sharing some of those examples for sure.

00;11;11;10 - 00;11;28;28 Dave Yeah. And it's one of those things where you have a choice to make once you start to use these tools, you know, ChatGPT being primary and one of them, you are going to get so much more efficient. You're gonna have a choice, you know, do I spend my time doing eight times more stuff? You know, if I can do in one hour what used to take me eight hours?

00;11;29;00 - 00;11;43;27 Dave Or do I do one hour's worth of work and go to Myrtle Beach or something? You know, I, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, you know, so it's it's really a choice you're going to have to make. And I think those people who embrace this as something that says, okay, this is a this is kind of jet fuel.

00;11;44;00 - 00;12;02;06 Dave I can go from, you know, just a biplane or, you know, a paper airplane to being on a jet. And this is how fast I can move. This is how much information I can do. This is how, how, how, how, how I can outcompete. It's really a tool that you should use, for sure.

00;12;02;08 - 00;12;16;18 Alison Now, Dave, in the B2B space, I'd love you to share some unique use cases and opportunities that you're seeing for leveraging Gen AI, and also to share if it varies, based on the company size or the industry that, the brands and marketers are part of.

00;12;16;21 - 00;12;41;27 Dave Absolutely. I mean, it all depends. So starting at the enterprise level, there are often rules that individuals have that they have to adhere to. You know, I know in some organizations you can't access anything on your local server or from your, your intranet or from your IP address that ends in dot AI. There are a lot of considerations you have to take into account the security side of things.

00;12;41;27 - 00;12;59;07 Dave You have to take into account what data you're putting into, and you know how you can adopt. So as a as a marketer who's looking to early adopter, you know, adopt these types of things, you are going to have to figure out what works for your organization. That's first and foremost, because you do not want to compromise any data.

00;12;59;07 - 00;13;15;10 Dave You do not want to compromise any information. You want to make sure that you are following the rules that are set, and the rules are there for a reason. Now, if you're in a small or medium sized business, well, it's kind of the wild, wild West, right? You can just go for it and do whatever you want. So ignore everything I just said.

00;13;15;10 - 00;13;35;21 Dave No, I'm just kidding. You still need to adhere to those things. So from a small to medium size, what I'm finding is people are tend to be plugging in to some of these public models. So they're, they're paying for paid subscriptions or they're doing things where they kind of have their own information. And then you know, separating it out.

00;13;35;21 - 00;13;58;17 Dave So they've got their own information, but are kind of reaching out to these public models to then, you know, power it basically. So they're trying to create these walled gardens that aren't quite as walled off, I don't know, chain link fence instead of walls? So as a result of that they they're able to use the, as the models get better and better and they're able to have their own data referencing.

00;13;58;20 - 00;14;27;09 Dave So and then the small businesses, I mean, they're just they're just accessing, giving stuff away and doing all that kind of stuff. So when I say giving stuff away, what I mean is a lot of these models are trained off of your data. So if you upload a client proposal into ChatGPT without putting any of the safeties on or anything like that, technically that information becomes part of the training model for ChatGPT to train others so other people could utilize that.

00;14;27;09 - 00;14;57;00 Dave And I, I mean, do you have a lot to worry about? Probably not, if you're, but I you got to be careful. Talk to your lawyer. I just, you know I know this is going to go a broadcast if you're going to share any information, but at the same time, you know, you can, just understand that if you make the data anonymous and just take out the client's name and just be - a digital marketing agency is creating a proposal for a landscaping company.

00;14;57;02 - 00;15;22;00 Dave And this landscaping company is, you know, needs X, Y, and Z, zed, x, y, and zed things. And, you know, it's just it's really something that's that you can use. Just don't be so specific. So I'm seeing people use these really varies based on their organization size and then what they're trying to do with it. I mean, I've been in meetings where people are still head in the sand.

00;15;22;00 - 00;15;40;11 Dave This is really something that I'm very afraid of. You know, they're on that that spectrum in terms of the, the framework. And I think they're, we're all going to potentially move forward through the framework. But, you know, depending on where they are and who they work for, I, I'm seeing a lot of different things with how they're using it.

00;15;40;13 - 00;16;04;19 Alison And if, if they're in a highly regulated industry or as you call it, a large organization where there are those limitations, and I would still encourage marketers to start experimenting with Gen AI in their personal life, on their personal computers, because it's not going to get easier to to learn. It's not going to get any less intimidating. So the longer that they're waiting, the harder it will be to catch up.

00;16;04;19 - 00;16;15;17 Alison And it's also a missed opportunity, like when you call out that you can now in an hour, do something, enough work that formerly took you a day, like, we all want to benefit from that as well.

00;16;15;19 - 00;16;50;00 Dave Absolutely. And I think it's it's really important to for people to experiment, as you were saying, no matter what organization size that they're in, because the more you play with these tools, the the better you'll get. So from my perspective, it makes the most sense to think about these AI tools as a newly-graduated, newly-minted MBA student who is highly, highly knowledgeable, super, super highly knowledgeable, and yet they know nothing about you and they know nothing about what you want from them.

00;16;50;00 - 00;17;14;04 Dave So just like a new hire, new employee, you know, they're excited. Well, I mean, the machine's not necessarily excited, but they're excited to to learn and to do and to give you the right answer. But they need to know some context. So it's really important to start off with, all right, when you're when you're entering any information into this and we'll just focus on the large language models like ChatGPT.

00;17;14;07 - 00;17;41;03 Dave Just, you know, you are a, or whatever you want that particular model to be. So for example, you are a proposal writer and and then that frames the the rest of the input and what you're going to give instructions as that. So depending on how you're using the tool you really got to frame it first. So you are a, and then tell it what it is and then go and say, okay, here's some research, here's some information.

00;17;41;05 - 00;18;01;29 Dave And if you really want to kind of go next-level with it, you can say, here is the type of an answer that I really like. Write me an answer like that. So for example, if you were using it to write a resume, I don't know, say you wanted to switch jobs, you could put an ad, you can upload a resume and say like, here's all, here's all my LinkedIn profile, here's all the information for my LinkedIn.

00;18;01;29 - 00;18;23;24 Dave Here's all the amazing stuff I've done. Here's the people have referred me, here are the people of, you know, endorsed me, whatever. Here's all the articles I've written. Here is a resume. Take all this information and write a resume about me. And by the way, you also should put in, and do not make anything up, because that helps limit the creativity of the model.

00;18;23;27 - 00;18;48;20 Dave So sometimes we touch briefly on it, but it does hallucinate. And so hallucination I view as creativity. So it gets creative sometimes, a little too much. So you just do not make anything up. And then of course once it see it, it produces, it writes you that resume, double check it. Because any of these tools are only going to get you 80% of the way there.

00;18;48;22 - 00;19;08;23 Dave That's the other key thing that I think people miss is they just take what they got, put it into an email, or put it into a proposal or put it into something else. The tool will only get you 80% of the way there. And just like an intern really, or no, or a new hire, they are going to do some great work with how they're trained, but they're not going to get it exactly as you want.

00;19;08;23 - 00;19;24;27 Dave It may not be in your voice, your tone, whatever it may be, and then you need to go in there, actually read it, actually take a look at it, correct it, and then use it if you're going to use it. But it will get you it will get you 80 or 90% of the way there pretty much every time.

00;19;24;27 - 00;19;25;20 Dave So yeah.

00;19;25;20 - 00;19;50;03 Alison Such great advice. And I really love your intern and new employee analogy. Because by investing a bit more time upfront, by helping coach them and support them along the way, they do get better and the outputs become even more valuable. And that is so true of ChatGPT. And if you have people that are listening that are a little skeptical or intimidated or don't want to try it in their first experiences, they try and say, well, this is crap.

00;19;50;06 - 00;20;01;18 Alison It's easy to then say, so I don't need to bother, instead of saying, I'm part of the reason, that's crap. This is part of the learning I need to go through to really get the value and the benefit out of the tool and to really understand it.

00;20;01;21 - 00;20;23;08 Dave Yeah, it's it's it's important. And I think, you know, there's references for example, if you're like, how big is New York? Right. What are you, what are you really asking? Are you looking for how big is it in square kilometres? Are you looking for how many people live in New York City proper, or are you looking for, you know, any any of these other things?

00;20;23;11 - 00;20;42;11 Dave You need to be very specific. So if you said how many people live in the greater New York City area, and then you could refine that to, you know, how many people live in Manhattan and then double check those answers because it might have made it up. So use Google as well to kind of reference things.

00;20;42;11 - 00;20;55;06 Dave And, and you know, more and more AI is coming into the search engine world, but, yeah, you definitely want to double check and fact check, whatever it is that you find just using that example.

00;20;55;08 - 00;21;01;11 Alison That's a great example. And adding the simple caveat "and don't make anything up" to your promise is incredibly powerful.

00;21;01;14 - 00;21;34;23 Dave Yeah. Well it's still makes stuff up though. That's like, it's it kind of follows instructions but not 100%. And you can also do things like, forget everything previously input or forget everything above. So you can do those types of things as well. And those tend to help, you know, kind of reset. But I always just start another chat and then I'll just start another chat just so I can I can kind of reset based on things, because in my experience, they the tools themselves tend to go off track after a while.

00;21;34;25 - 00;21;52;28 Dave And so you kind of need to reset and you'll start to notice, be like, that quality of that answer wasn't as good as it was a while back, so you can actually copy a chunk of answers you liked, put it in a new chat, and that seems to work well. But again, it'll just come with playing, playing with these tools.

00;21;52;28 - 00;22;14;06 Dave But there are other tools for marketers out there. I mean, there are tools that will write you songs, you know, from, from start to finish. There are tools that will develop creative content for you in terms of your your imagery. There's tools that will do a whole bunch of different things for you. So there are videos, there's amazing different things out there that you can do.

00;22;14;09 - 00;22;34;23 Alison Absolutely. And I love that. One of the CMA training sessions that you do for us, I love how you make it very relevant to the learners that attend, and have them leverage all of the different tools to actually write a marketing plan. So putting it into practice in a way that any marketer can understand and benefit from, it's a really great, teaching technique that you have.

00;22;34;23 - 00;22;36;03 Alison So thank you for that too.

00;22;36;05 - 00;22;43;29 Dave I'm happy to share for sure. What might be fun is to create a song, you know, because this is a podcast.

00;22;44;03 - 00;22;48;23 Alison I love it. We're going to create a CMA Connect podcast theme song on the spot.

00;22;48;25 - 00;23;11;22 Dave Okay. So this is Suno, this is a fun tool. This is something that, I'm not sure how many of the listeners would have, will have explored before and basically what this is, is a library of created songs and it's it's amazing. So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to hit create. What type of music do you want the theme song to be?

00;23;11;24 - 00;23;22;06 Alison It definitely needs to be energetic. It needs to be, feel more future-focused, trying to think of specific genres that would deliver on that.

00;23;22;08 - 00;23;45;04 Dave I mean, we could start off with a pop song. What do you think about doing a pop song? Sure. An energetic pop song about the CMA podcasts. We have two different pop songs here. So we have Tune into the CMA, Tune into CMA. So I'll start with this one first.

00;23;45;06 - 00;23;57;07 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat.

00;23;57;09 - 00;24;20;07 Dave So that's that's the first one. So the interesting thing is what it does is it writes the copy, the words of the song and then creates different beats. So I'm going to play the second one now and it's got the exact same lyrics, but it'll be a little bit different.

00;24;20;09 - 00;24;35;18 AI Song New stories every week. Fresh voices with a tweak. Tune in. Don't miss the beat. CMA. Bringing heat. Laughs and tears all day long. Conversations where we belong. Grab your headphones, come along...

00;24;35;18 - 00;24;37;08 Alison So which one do you prefer?

00;24;38;22 - 00;24;40;29 Dave I like this one better, to be honest.

00;24;41;01 - 00;24;54;07 Alison Right now the lyrics are fairly generic and given the prompt we've served it, that makes perfect sense. If we were to elaborate more on what we were asking for, am I right in assuming that the lyrics will become more relevant and stronger as well?

00;24;54;10 - 00;25;01;01 Dave Absolutely. The better you prompt, the better and more relevant it'll be. So here's gritty, intense, hard rap.

00;25;01;04 - 00;25;14;19 AI Song Tune in, CMA dropping' bombs on the regular. Facts so sharp, sharper than the predator. Mic in hand, splitting' truth like a prophet. Expose the lies, real talk, no profit...

Alison I kinda like this one too.

00;25;14;21 - 00;25;26;13 Dave When you think about it from a marketer's perspective, how many hours would this have taken? How many, how much investment in time, effort, people? It's just, it would be crazy.

00;25;26;15 - 00;25;36;02 Alison So we're just getting started, right? When you think about how much the tools have evolved, how many new tools have emerged on the scene, and it's changing daily?

00;25;36;05 - 00;25;51;20 Dave Absolutely. It's it's, and it's not just like we talk about the large language models because that's what everybody tends to focus on. But there are all these other tools that are just absolutely mind blowing. So yeah, it's it's a fun journey to be on like, this is this is exciting and fun.

00;25;51;22 - 00;26;01;29 Alison So as marketers are embracing Gen AI, what skills are becoming more critical and what should marketers keep in mind as they're navigating this rapidly evolving landscape?

00;26;02;02 - 00;26;24;01 Dave Well, you know, really, as much as we were talking about these tools, people are still important. You know, people matter. You still have to have the soft skills to be able to communicate with people and understand. So all those fundamentals that you learned aren't going away, but marketers who use it are going to have a significant advantage to those who don't.

00;26;24;01 - 00;26;44;22 Dave And so, for example, if you said to me, you know what Dave, come up with a creative concept for, for, you know, an ad for the CMA podcast, and I could come up with a complete marketing plan, a complete copywriting. I could write you your landing pages, your copy for all of your, communications, your Twitter, or your X posts, or your LinkedIn posts.

00;26;44;29 - 00;27;05;22 Dave I could generate images for it. I could create a song for it, and I could do all that, probably before lunch. If you're going up against me, you've got to be skilled in this, right? And I am by no means the best at this. I am a learning person who is just trying to use this as much as possible, but you got to know what's there to be able to do it.

00;27;05;22 - 00;27;31;02 Dave So it's it's important for you to, to use these tools and, and be open and curious and be willing to fail. You know, you need to really, you need to to really not get great results and then accept the fact that, okay, that result was bad, but it wasn't because of the machine, it was because I'm not good enough yet at prompting the machine, at entering the information, at giving the resources.

00;27;31;04 - 00;28;00;09 Dave So I always look at it as, how can I get better? Because what I found is, in my experience, the better I get, amazingly, the better the machine seems to get. You know, it's just it's just it's amazing how how advanced it gets, you know, so you can use these tools to help you prepare for meetings. So for example, if you download a transcript of this podcast, you could then say, okay, give me the summary points that Dave said I should watch out about security concerns.

00;28;00;16 - 00;28;26;20 Dave What are enterprise companies doing about those security concerns? How can I, as a small, medium-sized business marketer use these tools? And what should I tell my CEO or CMO, CTO or whatever? What should I tell the C-suite about this tool? And how can I then persuade them to use these tools. So you can even like brainstorm. You can you can just bounce ideas off this off the machine.

00;28;26;22 - 00;28;48;25 Dave And it's really interesting to see the results that you can get. And, you know, I mean, like any intern, they'll have great ideas. And you'll use 1 or 2 of them, but you'll still get two more ideas than you didn't have before. So it's it's really, really important. So you, as you said earlier, being curious, it's 90% of the battle in this case.

00;28;48;25 - 00;28;56;18 Dave So and then, don't just know about it, do it. Actually use the tools. That's that's the most important thing.

00;28;56;23 - 00;29;19;12 Alison Well they also highlighted, and a willingness to fail. Like this is not going to be perfect. This is not going to be like inserted into no matter how good your prompts are, make the request and then just serve up the finished product. It still does need human engagement. It needs human review. Humans will make any output from the tools even stronger, and you have to be willing to fail.

00;29;19;15 - 00;29;38;11 Dave Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And if you're yeah. If you're not, if you're not at the highest level of your profession, if you're a junior marketer or something, you can you can use this to up up-skill, to do what the people above are doing. Ask, you know, ask the people above you for feedback on whatever you're giving. And then take that feedback.

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;59;04 Dave Incorporate it into whatever you're doing, your workflow, your processes. Because I've found AI works really well, like it's a machine. So the more structured data like, like lists you can put in, the more information that kind of has a hierarchy like, you know, headings, subheadings, all that kind of stuff, it will react well to things that are well-structured.

00;29;59;06 - 00;30;17;16 Dave If you're just kind of, write me a pirate shanty, then it comes up with all kinds of stuff, right? But if you were like, okay, write it. And you know, with these, this many verses with this type of information about these things, make sure you hit on this, this and this. It just gets better and better. People aren't going away.

00;30;17;16 - 00;30;27;24 Dave This is just going to make people better, smarter, faster, more skilled. And you know, it's, you go from riding a tricycle to driving a Ferrari. It's, you go a lot faster.

00;30;27;28 - 00;30;53;00 Alison Absolutely. So, Dave, this has been a wonderful conversation. You've given us such great advice and very practical ways that we can start engaging with the tools if we're already engaging, which I hope most of our listeners are, how to build on the early learning that we each have. Now, separate from Gen AI, you have a amazing career. You've built businesses, you've been entrepreneurial.

00;30;53;03 - 00;31;05;29 Alison So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you share one piece of advice for marketers who are looking to stay ahead in their careers and what they need to do to continue to evolve with the industry.

00;31;06;01 - 00;31;30;23 Dave So the biggest learning I've had, in that side of things, has really come down to how I approach things. And really it's kind of a framework that I've taken to adopt, which is, you know, that doesn't work for me, changed to how do I. So let me give you an example. Twitter, X, is a tool that I never really understood.

00;31;31;00 - 00;31;52;01 Dave You know, it's the noise problem. There's so much stuff there. It's all about politics whatever. And so my thought was, it doesn't work for me. It's not going to ever work for me. Instead, I had to change my mind to how do I use this tool to accomplish what I want? So I went in, I deleted everybody I was following, and I just, so this is a kind of a dual purpose.

00;31;52;01 - 00;32;13;03 Dave I just started following people who are the thought leaders in AI. So Twitter is, now my feed is now all the latest developments in AI, all the amazing things that are happening, changing it to a "how do I". Because whenever I start to think that way, I realize that the problem's with me, not necessarily the platform, not necessarily the tool.

00;32;13;06 - 00;32;22;16 Dave So how do I learn how to do this thing better? And and then that's just really the best piece of advice I can give. So hopefully that's helpful.

00;32;22;16 - 00;32;26;26 Alison I love that reframing. It's great professional advice. It's also great personal advice. Thank you.

00;32;26;26 - 00;32;38;26 Dave Absolutely. No, you're welcome. Thank you very much for having me. This has been a lot of fun. And it's it's been really you know, I'm grateful for everything the CMA does. You guys are amazing. So I'm happy to be able to contribute a little bit.

00;32;38;29 - 00;32;51;17 Alison You're one of our many amazing members. And I really appreciate all that you give back to the community as well, because we're only as strong as the the level of engaged members that we have. And you definitely are high on that list. So, Dave, thank you for everything.

00;32;51;19 - 00;32;57;12 Dave Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

00;32;57;14 - 00;33;10;02 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.