Isn't all marketing performance driven? Lauren Bradeen, CMO and Partner at Deloitte, challenges the traditional brand-versus-performance debate in her conversation with Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA. When Lauren stepped into the CMO role, she discovered Deloitte's B2B playbook hadn't evolved much in a decade. Now she's leading a transformation to help B2B marketers build marketing teams that are confident in the value they bring, rather than constantly justifying every dollar. Plus, Lauren shares why being a 'capability collector' is the secret to career advancement.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:47:22 Alison I'm very happy to welcome Lauren Bradeen, Chief Marketing Officer and Partner at Deloitte Canada, for today's episode. Lauren is leading a comprehensive marketing transformation that's redefining how one of the world's premier professional services firms is approaching the integration of brand and performance marketing. Her expertise and strategic thinking have been showcased in industry publications, where she's contributed insights on the evolving challenges facing modern marketers.

00:00:48:00 - 00:01:10:06 Alison Lauren's also been actively engaged in developing the next generation of marketing talent, recently participating as a guest speaker at our CMA NXT Marketing Careers Night, and she was also a judge for this year's CMA Awards. What sets Lauren apart is her journey from in the business into marketing leadership. She really understands how Deloitte works with clients, the processes behind it, and how to speak the language of the business.

00:01:10:08 - 00:01:33:06 Alison Currently, she's leading Deloitte Marketing through what she calls the messy middle, an important part of any transformation. And they're moving from an operational marketing function to a strategic brand and growth engine with their own targets and accountability, all while maintaining Deloitte's position as the number one brand globally in the category. With marketing leaders across industries grappling with the false choice between brand building and performance marketing,

00:01:33:07 - 00:01:46:02 Alison Lauren's approach can offer a roadmap for how these traditionally siloed functions really need to work together to drive real business success. Welcome, Lauren, I am absolutely thrilled to have you join us here today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation.

00:01:46:04 - 00:01:48:04 Lauren Thank you. Alison. So am I.

00:01:48:06 - 00:01:59:04 Alison So let's get started with your story. When you stepped into the CMO role at Deloitte, what was it that resonated for you about that role and what were some of your early priorities?

00:01:59:06 - 00:02:20:08 Lauren So I would offer that my journey into the role might have been a little bit more unconventional, as I was actually offered the role while on maternity leave, and so that really provided me a bit of space without an existing mandate to be focused on, to really think about the opportunity. And there were three things that surfaced for me.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:42:12 Lauren The first was to drive a greater impact for the firm. And so this role supports all of our businesses and all of our industries. And so within that, I have the opportunity to actually learn from and work with leaders across operate and consulting services and tax and legal, ER and I G.P.S. And so that was really, really interesting for me.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:14:23 Lauren The second was I had felt like the B2B playbook had not made as much progress over the last decade. And so I was excited about this opportunity for an industry that felt pretty ripe for transformation. And then the third piece was, what an honour. And so when they offered me the role, I felt like from a personal career perspective, the growth, the leadership opportunity to work with this large, incredible team, it just felt like something that I absolutely couldn't turn down.

00:03:15:01 - 00:03:38:13 Lauren And so being on maternity leave, that also gave me a bit of space in a different way to think about what I wanted to do before I actually started the role. And so as I stepped into the role, the immediate priorities I had gone in with a bit of like blue sky unconstrained strategy, what were all the things that I would have loved when I was in the business?

00:03:38:15 - 00:03:57:18 Lauren And then once I started the role and did my listening tour, in that first month, I was really able to validate, invalidate, gain new ideas from the team, hear all the things that they had always wanted to do, but maybe felt like they couldn't. And so right off the bat, the focus was just getting the strategy set.

00:03:57:19 - 00:04:15:07 Lauren I started in Q2 as well for Deloitte, and so I felt like if I waited too long, it could actually be a bit more disruptive. And so we got that strategy in place, shared out this strategy so that everybody on the team felt part of and very clear on, what was our mission and what were we rallying around.

00:04:15:08 - 00:04:36:03 Lauren And then the immediate priorities were around the areas that needed the most modernization in order to deliver on that strategy. And so we set up what we called task forces. There was about six of them, they're like mini consulting projects around things like digital transformation and KPIs and measurement. There were a few new capabilities we wanted to stand on, like our content studio.

00:04:36:05 - 00:04:40:06 Lauren And so those were the immediate priorities that we took on once I stepped into the role.

00:04:40:08 - 00:04:52:13 Alison I absolutely love that Deloitte gave you the promotion when you were on mat leave. That speaks so incredibly well of the culture, and the signal that that would have sent across the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:04:52:15 - 00:05:10:03 Lauren I will reinforce that. I felt incredibly honoured and also very proud of Deloitte for giving me that opportunity while on maternity leave. I also asked my leader, like, do you think this is something that I can do as a new mom? And she was like, I think you can do this because you're a new mom. Like the the perspective you'll bring.

00:05:10:03 - 00:05:15:13 Lauren And so that was definitely a very proud moment for me, for the firm.

00:05:15:15 - 00:05:45:02 Alison That's amazing. Now, one of the big themes in marketing today is the ongoing tension between brand marketing and performance marketing. It is so often treated as an "either or" instead of an "and" relationship. So with that as a backdrop, I know you're leading a significant transformation at Deloitte around performance marketing. I'd love you to share your approach to structuring and changing marketing within the organization to be more performance driven, acknowledging that the brand part is an important part of driving that performance as well.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:08:04 Lauren So first and foremost, I've never loved the term performance marketing. I can appreciate that what felt like quite suddenly, marketers could track a sale and attribute a dollar to the marketing spend. It was very exciting. But I actually think we did a disservice by categorizing a part of marketing as performance, because then what is everything else in service of?

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:32:00 Lauren And so I feel like the pendulum swung now back to needing a more balanced approach. And that's absolutely how we are embracing it. And so we call it "from brand to demand". And all marketing is performance driven. But it's in service of different KPIs. And so in terms of how we're thinking about performance marketing holistically, and you need that KPI framework.

00:06:32:00 - 00:07:03:01 Lauren So we have quantifiable KPIs across brand, eminence consideration and growth. And we work in service of that KPI framework. The next thing I'd say, that we have done, again, in service of this broader performance marketing definition, is being a little bit less binary around how we look at spend. And so I think even when performance marketing started being talked about, you'd say, okay, well, we need to invest this percentage of our budget on performance marketing and then this percentage on everything else.

00:07:03:03 - 00:07:27:07 Lauren Whereas the percentage splits or the way in which you flex your budget is very dependent on what you are marketing and the challenges that you're facing. We know that through things like media mixed modelling and different incrementality and approaches, you're going to learn what the right budget split at a given time is. But I do think we need to be more fluid in our approaches to budget and spending.

00:07:27:12 - 00:07:58:01 Lauren And so we're really thinking about, what are the needs of our business, what are the needs of our client, and what does that mean from a spend split perspective? In the same way that you wouldn't look at the cost to acquire every segment the same. And so I think that comes back to everything needing to be in service of that KPI framework, because if you're only looking at something like the cost per acquisition, you're going to miss out on more flexible budgeting and spend split strategy, which would actually be in service of more growth.

00:07:58:03 - 00:08:22:12 Lauren And then the last thing I'd offer is just the short term - long term balance. We're very lucky because Deloitte is a very client centric business, and we don't have the pressures of maybe a tech company or a consumer company where they have targets every week to meet on sales. Just by nature of the velocity of our sales cycle, we are more of a longer term business.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:45:01 Lauren And so we have that long term longevity of the business, longevity of the brand mindset. So I will be the first to admit that it is probably easier for us, but we know and the data shows that you have to think about the decisions that you're making in totality. If you stop investing in the brand, it makes it a lot harder and more expensive later to make up for that market share.

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:56:00 Alison Now, building on that, how do you define a high performance marketing function today and what does great look like? And I'd also love you to talk a little bit about how has that definition evolved.

00:08:56:02 - 00:09:28:22 Lauren So I think there's two parts of a high performance marketing team. There is the "what" and then there is the "how". And the "what" from my perspective is exactly what I just talked about. It's the KPI framework. And so every organization should have quantified targets across brands straight through to the bottom of the funnel. And with those quantified targets, there is a need for both a baseline and a benchmark view on those things so that you know you're not being too insular and what you're reaching for.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:48:12 Lauren But we also know that we ultimately have to continue to optimize and improve on our own metrics, because that's the data that we control, and we see and can compare apples to apples. And so once you have that, you have the targets for your KPI strategy. That's when you know what high performance is because that is meeting or exceeding all of your targets.

00:09:48:14 - 00:10:19:08 Lauren And then how do you meet and exceed your targets? That is your strategy, your people and then your process data and tech. And so to me people is actually decoupled from the others because people and culture are what you truly need to unleash to be high performance. If you have a culture of innovation and curiosity and testing and learning, a really like relentless and dedicated and excited team, you are going to be able to reach your targets time and time again,

00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:07 Lauren better than those that maybe don't have that culture where people feel really empowered and unconstrained. And then how you enable those people is through that virtuous cycle of process, tech and data. I'm in my head seeing like a slide because I am maybe a consultant at heart now, and so that's how I can visualize it is you really have like your people at the top, and then you've got that underpinning of the process, tech and data, and then your culture is the enabler.

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:06:10 Lauren And of course this evolves. So the inputs into those things is constantly evolving because we are in an industry that is never standing still in the same way that the conversations we're having about technology. We have technologies in a martech perspective that we weren't even talking about five years ago, whether that's your customer data platform or what have you.

00:11:06:15 - 00:11:24:08 Lauren And same with data and AI. And so you always have to be iterating and evolving the inputs. But I think that framing of ensuring that there's a connectedness behind your process, tech and data to empower and really unleash your people is what will get you to the most high performance outcomes and culture.

00:11:24:10 - 00:12:00:05 Alison Dividing it into the "what" and the "how" is a really powerful way to simplify a very complex topic. And then I'm in passionate agreement with you on the critical role of people and culture as really being the the secret weapon in driving true performance. When you think about the world of AI and how it's impacting very positively and potentially negatively our profession and our world, knowing that the culture and the people are such a differentiator should give everyone some comfort that while AI can be a very powerful tool, it's not going to replace us.

00:12:00:07 - 00:12:17:03 Lauren I'm of the same mindset. At Deloitte we talk about human-led, AI-enabled, and so there are absolutely incredible use cases for us to be elevating and improving the way we work. But the human potential and the authenticity of people, that is the power.

00:12:17:05 - 00:12:38:21 Alison And it can really help us scale. And when you think applying that to smaller businesses, it can be a very powerful competitive advantage as well.

Lauren Absolutely.

Alison So now we're going to do a little bit of myth-busting. And you've touched on this a bit. But between people, process, tech and data, what's the real unlock or the biggest myth that you'd like to bust about what actually drives performance?

00:12:38:23 - 00:13:01:00 Lauren Yeah, I maybe, gave the plot away a little bit on the last one. I'm, passionately in the camp of people. One of the offerings that I worked with clients on when I was in the consulting business was around upskilling. And in upskilling we were bringing forward the demos around the tech and deeper understanding of the data.

00:13:01:02 - 00:13:29:22 Lauren But one of the biggest, I think, challenges that organizations face is they invest a lot of money in the martech, a lot of money in the data, the integration of the systems, etc. and they expect that that and that alone will yield the outcomes. And then the business cases aren't being realized because they forget the fact that if you look at any go to market process, that the person that is running that process or taking you through that process, they have to have an understanding of the tech.

00:13:29:22 - 00:13:52:11 Lauren If you are writing a brief or you are delivering on a brief, if you're a creative or your immediate team or agency, and you don't have an understanding of the tech that can segment or better personalize or dynamic creative, you're not going to be able to write or receive that brief in the same way as somebody that does have the understanding of that tech and that data.

00:13:52:13 - 00:14:20:08 Lauren And so I think the biggest myth to bust is just the idea that you can, like, tech your way into high performance. You need the infrastructure, you need the martech, you need the connected data. But if you discount the need to upskill your people around that, or to build a culture where people get excited about that change and that progress and optimizing the tools that they use to get to market, then you won't yield the outcomes that you hoped for.

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:44:07 Alison Very well said. Now another passion that we share is the mission critical role that marketing plays in building businesses and contributing to Canada's economy. Yet we still at times struggle to get a seat at the table. So I'd love you to share how you see marketing as a strategic growth engine, and how you've been able to fight and get that important seat at the table with Deloitte.

00:14:44:09 - 00:15:05:06 Lauren So I think and I believe we can do this through the Canadian Marketing Association. All of the marketers need to hold hands and decide that we're just going to put the debate to bed once and for all, because has any other function in the history of business had to prove themselves and bring as much data to the table as marketing has.

00:15:05:08 - 00:15:28:07 Lauren I don't think so. And so I think if you look at the business case of marketing as an engine for brand and growth, and again, we have brought like the data-driven empirical proof that marketing drives growth. So there is a great study around looking at the impact of brand spend. And so organizations that are having a more holistic approach to marketing.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:51:20 Lauren What is the impact long term on sales CAGR? And they saw that those in the bottom quartile had 13 percentage points lower CAGRs than the top quartile. We've seen digital conversion points. We've seen e-commerce and the ability to track and attribute marketing to sales. We've seen the impact of cross-sell upsell in the customer onboarding, the ability to deepen customer lifetime value.

00:15:51:22 - 00:16:21:14 Lauren I think every organization and every marketer has the industry data to showcase brand and marketing as a driver of growth, as well as the stats and the data-driven proof points within your organization. And so I think that as long as a marketer is coming to the table with that data that we have to just put it to bed a little bit and have the confidence that we've already justified that marketing is a really, really great engine, both for brand and growth.

00:16:21:16 - 00:16:42:19 Alison For our listeners who aren't familiar with the research that Lauren cited, we'll make sure that we add it into the notes for the podcast so that you can access it. Lauren, you have an approach to reporting on marketing measurement that would be aspirational for many of our listeners. You track marketing ROI internally with your team and focus on brand health metrics when you're presenting to the executive.

00:16:42:21 - 00:16:48:07 Alison Can you walk us through this philosophy and how you're building credibility with the business using this process?

00:16:48:08 - 00:17:13:10 Lauren Well, thank you for that, Alison. I would agree. We have a fantastic foundation and strategy, but of course we are on a continuous journey to be more sophisticated. And so we're actually about to start some consulting projects with our analytics and marketing teams around automation, more AI enablement. And we have a fantastic new head of marketing analytics. So it really does feel like everything is coming together.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:41:02 Lauren But at its core, from an approach to reporting perspective, one critical thing I'd offer, which is just that brand to demand connected reporting view. And so for us, every campaign is categorized and it supports a specific set of KPIs that is from that broader set of KPIs in our framework that tells our performance story. And then we have different levels of reporting that are all connected.

00:17:41:04 - 00:18:04:16 Lauren And so at the highest level we have our full marketing performance story. And then there's program level reporting for each pod. And then campaign level reporting that's much more tactical and really where we see the metrics come through. And so this enables our executive and leadership team to understand the full impact. And then we can actually drill down where necessary to understand the why.

00:18:04:21 - 00:18:32:19 Lauren Why did we hit this KPI, why didn't we? Oh this looked really great. Let's understand so we can do more of that. And so that approach has really helped us have the most accurate snapshot that we can of the impact that we make across brand, eminence and growth. And the only other thing that I will say is I am very fortunate to work at an organization that is very supportive of the work that we do around brand and client value.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:47:11 Lauren And so there isn't really that over-rotation on short term sales thinking that can often skew marketing strategy. And so we are fortunate for great leadership in that regard that really lets this strategy and this approach to measurement live.

00:18:47:13 - 00:18:58:03 Alison Now this type of change doesn't happen overnight. And I know some of our listeners are going to be thinking, I would love to be in that situation. So how would you recommend they get started on this transformation?

00:18:58:07 - 00:19:26:09 Lauren Two things that I'd say were pretty critical for us in the beginning. And the first was real conversations with the business to understand what value they need. And we weren't having conversations around, well, we can generate impressions and we can drive this many clicks. It was really just business to business conversations around, okay, so do you actually need these types of industries more aware of your services or, what type of functions do you actually need reading our content?

00:19:26:09 - 00:19:48:07 Lauren What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to see that you have the expertise in? And so having conversations like that with the business enables us to genuinely understand what it is that we can do that can help them be successful. And then we're able to, in the background, translate that into the marketing language and the marketing metrics.

00:19:48:08 - 00:20:09:14 Lauren And so that first thing really is just genuinely seeking to understand the value that we can add for the business and offering our perspective on the areas that can actually help, or offering data and market research to say, I don't know if you actually do have an awareness challenge. I think people are pretty aware, maybe we need to do something a little bit more engagement-driven.

00:20:09:16 - 00:20:34:16 Alison You're also really elevating it beyond the marketing performance to, here is the business outcome and impact that we are holding ourselves accountable to and delivering against. So you're having a business conversation and marketing is obviously the key driver behind that. But the conversation you're having at the executive level is more here is the business impact the marketing team is having versus here's how our last few campaigns and initiatives performed, which is a much more important conversation.

00:20:34:21 - 00:21:04:15 Lauren Exactly. And I think that it's important to see that partnership and with the business, like, we don't do anything without the business. It is the business sharp insights that inform our POVs. It is our business leaders that are on the podcast. It is often even the inspiration for our campaigns that we get from the business, because they're spending every day with our clients and they are understanding the challenges and the constraints that our clients feel, and they know what works and what doesn't work.

00:21:04:15 - 00:21:27:18 Lauren And so they help even inform the human truths in our campaign. And so I think if you also think about marketing as just part of the value proposition of your organization, and you think about marketing in partnership with the business, it also stops being such a hard sell because it is truly in partnership with, rather than one function or another function doing different things.

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:51:22 Alison But it also goes back to, you've been in the business, you've had PNL accountability. And when I am asked for advice from marketers at all levels, it really is, get in the business, be responsible for a PNL, understand how the business works, and it will make you a much better marketer. You will build a lot more credibility and accountability with your colleagues across the organization as well.

00:21:52:00 - 00:22:00:03 Alison You mentioned you're in the messy middle of your transformation. So what's working well, and what are some of the unexpected obstacles or surprises you've encountered?

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:26:01 Lauren The messy middle is the best part. And so I will say we are having a lot of fun because this is where you have the most license to test, to learn and explore. And that is probably the first thing I'd say that is going really well. I am very fortunate to have an incredible team. They are driven, they have growth mindset and really both feet in on this transformation.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:51:00 Lauren And that is everything. Because you can teach any skill, but you cannot teach curiosity, passion and drive. And I really do feel like every day we wake up and we're focused on progress. You can see that come through in the fact that our upskilling programs have near perfect attendance. And so that is the heart of transformation. And I will say, I truly just feel honoured to be part of this team.

00:22:51:00 - 00:23:16:13 Lauren And so that's where all of it starts. And that's what helps you get through the messy middle. Along with seeing the signals that it's working. And so the first part of that is that we are learning there are many channels that B2B can thrive in and reach your target audience, and that's been really energizing and motivating for our people, because we're able to build our own playbook and we are able to innovate in a really effective way,

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:38:15 Lauren when you're starting to see the data show that whether it is engagement, whether it is reaching your target audience, whether it is things like leads, that the things that you're testing are actually translating to great results. And so we talk all the time about how we don't want to be part of sort of the stagnancy of the B2B marketing industry.

00:23:38:15 - 00:23:59:07 Lauren We want to break rules. We want to do things differently. And so seeing the results is really motivating and validating. And then the other part of that is the signals that we're actually hearing from clients. And so the results and the feedback is promising. Part of what we are looking to do is be seen as an extension of the value proposition of Deloitte.

00:23:59:09 - 00:24:22:08 Lauren And so we want to be able to bring valuable insights and expert thinking and different perspectives from the field to our clients in engaging and consumable formats. And so we've had clients reach out to their partners from our business about the podcast episodes they listened to or the content they saw them featured in and sharing their appreciation or sharing

00:24:22:08 - 00:24:44:20 Lauren I learned something, or I didn't know that you did that or I actually could use your help on that. And so that really validates the performance data we're seeing and signals that we're on the right track. In terms of what we have learned the hard way, I'd offer two things. The first is around just ensuring that you are consistent and very repetitive.

00:24:44:22 - 00:25:07:13 Lauren You, as the leader, might say something 15 times, but it actually only goes to certain audiences or certain individuals on your team once. And so ensuring that you are just consistent and repetitive is important, especially because there is so much change as you are progressing and evolving and optimizing and testing and scaling. There is so much that does change.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:34:16 Lauren So ensuring that you are consistent on things like your mandate or things like the strategy and the fixed parts is incredibly important. And if I could go back, I probably would ensure that I was doing that more at scale. So that everybody was getting those consistent messages throughout versus maybe those just reaching some. And then the other thing I would offer is based on something I heard recently, actually, that was "you don't know what you know."

00:25:34:18 - 00:26:04:11 Lauren And that's important because if you're designing things, you're going to be making you know, and maybe assuming that that's common practice for everyone. And so ensuring that you have cross-functional groups, just gut checking things along the way, or ensuring that you have feedback loops built in as you're managing through any change in process, digital channel execution, reporting, whatever that might be.

00:26:04:13 - 00:26:19:18 Lauren That is also really critical. And so those are probably the two things that I would reflect and say, I probably could have caught on a little bit sooner to make sure that I was making it easier for everyone and ensuring that we were really productively moving through our transformation.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:35:05 Alison I love the twist on the line - typically it's "you don't know what you don't know", but I love the twist on "you don't know what you know", and when you're having conversations across the team, across your organization, you can't, often we can assume, well, if I know it they must know it. So that that's a really good light bulb moment for sure.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:54:00 Alison The other part that really resonates is the power and the need for repetition. There's some great research that says the average person needs to hear the same message on average seven times before it sinks in. And when you're the person responsible for saying it, you're thinking, oh my god, how can I possibly say this again and have them not understand it?

00:26:54:01 - 00:27:04:12 Alison So it's a really good level set to remind yourself. With all the ways we're bombarded with communications, we really do need to hear something seven times for it to really, truly sink.

00:27:04:14 - 00:27:21:21 Lauren I think all of us can relate to that as well, because there's nothing better than consistent messaging and consistent leadership. And especially in an industry that is changing so rapidly, you already have to embrace change, and you already have to know that the best thing to do one quarter ago might not be the best thing to do anymore.

00:27:22:01 - 00:27:33:03 Lauren So at least if you are consistent in your strategy and your direction and the things that matter most, and you're extra repetitive in those, I think we can all relate to how helpful that is.

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:58:13 Alison Absolutely. Now, Lauren, you've transformed your team's relationship with business partners and very much moved away from a service provider to a truly strategic partner who's co-creating rather than seeking approval. So you've touched a bit on this, but it's such an important topic and relevant topic for our listeners. I'd love you to talk a bit more about how you facilitated the transition, and what advice would you give to other marketers looking to elevate their role?

00:27:58:15 - 00:28:23:02 Lauren It's a great question, Alison, but full kudos goes to the team because they are showing up every day with expertise and credibility, and that is what it takes. I will say though, I feel like this is just the tip of the iceberg for us. And so as we continue to build and progress and drive results, we will be seen more and more as the powerhouse that this team is.

00:28:23:04 - 00:28:54:03 Lauren But there are a couple of things that we were very intentional about as part of this transformation that did really, really help us. And the first is just building that infrastructure. And so I've mentioned it before, but upskilling our new go to market, digital and audience strategy, tech enablement, AI, templates, we really put in the work so that we could show up and be excellent so that when you meet with marketing, it is a strategic, professional and value-add experience.

00:28:54:05 - 00:29:20:02 Lauren And we continue to work on that every single day. And so that's the first pieces that once you have that infrastructure, once people are clear on what it is they're doing, what the outcome of those interactions are, then you continue to just show up really well to your business, and that earns and demands respect. The second piece is just ensuring that your team is empowered to be confident and have fun when they're working with the business.

00:29:20:04 - 00:29:43:23 Lauren It is really easy to feel intimidated when you are working with such deep subject matter experts in their fields. And obviously, that is our experience at Deloitte and I'm sure for many others. And so we have to remind ourselves that, while they're experts in their trade, we are also experts in our craft. And marketing has become a technology- driven, data-driven function.

00:29:44:00 - 00:30:08:08 Lauren And so while we don't understand everything that they're saying, they also don't understand everything that we know about marketing. And so we've really encouraged our team members to have the confidence to say, "I don't understand that, tell me more." Or "I'd really like to understand it from this angle." Whereas when you are maybe a bit more intimidated and trying to show up like, no, I actually do understand everything about your business,

00:30:08:10 - 00:30:27:10 Lauren you're not going to be able to get to the meat of it. And then that prevents great marketing, because if we don't understand what it is we're marketing, how are our clients possibly going to understand that? And as marketing, you are reaching hundreds of thousands of people with your messages every day, which is a scale that nobody else in the business has.

00:30:27:13 - 00:30:45:18 Lauren And so it is really important that you just have that confidence to ask questions and have dialogue and have a little bit of fun while you're at it, so that everybody walks away feeling like that was a great conversation and you walk away clear on what it is you needed to learn. And then lastly, clear and collaborative swim lanes.

00:30:45:20 - 00:31:09:18 Lauren So business, risk and control partners in marketing have to be operating in a trio. And one of the big shifts that we moved from as we look to be more of a strategic advisor is seeking knowledge and not opinions. Sometimes what's being discussed, it is the marketing expertise or it is a brand risk as opposed to a regulation or compliance risk.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:38:17 Lauren And so if the business wants to provide a perspective on the headline or the format or what have you, that is sometimes an area we have to hold the line on and say, hey, we've got the the data and the rationale and the strategy that justifies the approach that we're taking. In the same way that we would not pretend that we should be the ones to advise on the sharp insights in the perspective or the framework, or tell them, I don't think you should actually be consulting to your clients in these ways.

00:31:38:18 - 00:31:56:00 Lauren And so it is about ensuring that everybody understands and is open to having dialogue, so that you can get to the best outcome possible. But sometimes that does mean us holding the line on where it is that we own that decision, or where we have the value and the expertise versus the business or the control partners.

00:31:56:06 - 00:32:11:03 Alison That's outstanding feedback and advice. Now, I'm very blessed to have senior leaders like you on the podcast, so I end every episode by asking my guests to share one piece of career advice that you would offer to people who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

00:32:11:05 - 00:32:33:22 Lauren I would say the most important thing is to be a capability collector. Especially in an industry like marketing that is so multifaceted across brand and integrated marketing and creative and digital and tech and data, I think as many capabilities that you can collect throughout your career, it makes you more well-rounded. And even those that are deep in a craft,

00:32:33:22 - 00:32:57:18 Lauren like my background, is more the digital marketer. If you still get enough understanding to be dangerous in the other areas, it will make you more well-rounded whatever depth or breadth that you have. And so I think just ensuring that you're very intentional about collecting capabilities as you go, asking the questions, doing the research, being proactive, that will help anybody get ahead.

00:32:57:20 - 00:33:17:00 Alison It's always been great advice in marketing, but when we think about the speed with which our profession and our consumers are evolving, being a capability collector and having that as a core skill that you possess will only bode well for anyone in this profession today and in the years ahead. So, Lauren, thank you. It has been an absolute delight.

00:33:17:01 - 00:33:22:04 Alison Definitely a highly informative and insight-rich conversation. And I really appreciate you taking the time.

00:33:22:06 - 00:33:28:21 Lauren Thank you for having me.

00:33:28:23 - 00:40:16:19 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free MyCMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.