Does working hard still help achieve your dreams? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews two strategists from Leo Burnett Toronto: Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer, and Sarah Carpentier, PhD, Senior Strategist. Their focus is the 2025 HumanKind Study, revealing how Canadians feel about work and life. When 83% of people don't believe hard work will pay off, the connection between effort and reward has changed - and brands should understand why.

7085B3-CMAPodcast - Ep. 53 - Tahir Ahmad and Sarah Carpentier ===

[00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

[00:00:27] Alison: If you're a marketer wondering how to connect with people who are stressed, uncertain, and frankly just trying to get through the day, well you are definitely not alone. Today, we're diving into Leo Toronto's HumanKind Study with Tahir Ahmad and Dr. Sarah Carpentier. Tahir serves as Chief Strategy Officer at Leo Toronto.

[00:00:45] Alison: He's also the original vision behind their highly insightful HumanKind study. It's research that delves into how Canadians are feeling and key trends, including what's keeping consumers up at night. And there are quite a few things keeping us up at night right now. Sarah made the leap from PhD student and management consulting to agency behavioural scientist a little over two years ago, bringing her doctorate in psychology to Leo Toronto, where she's a senior strategist and a principal force behind the HumanKind study.

[00:01:12] Alison: Now in its fourth year, the HumanKind study dives deep into the emotional undercurrent, opportunities and genuine challenges that are facing Canadians today. A few of the themes that we are gonna cover off include Social Stage Fright, Hustle to Nowhere, and Alexa, what is critical thinking. This year, the study also focused on younger Canadians, age 16 to 45, and took a closer look at newcomers to help uncover the emotional undercurrents that are shaping the next generation.

[00:01:40] Alison: It's also the second year that the study expanded beyond Canada to the U.S. to help us really understand how Canadians compare to and differ from Americans. Given the uncertainty with tariffs and the renewed Canadian patriotism, this view is both very timely and sure to provide some fascinating insights to make today's discussion both informative and actionable.

[00:01:58] Alison: Sarah and Tahir will also share what brands can do to help Canadians address their concerns and needs. Welcome Sarah and Tahir. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

Sarah: Thank you.

[00:02:07] Tahir: Thanks Alison. It's great to be back. I know we did this last year, so super excited to share the fourth edition.

[00:02:15] Alison: I'm looking forward to it too. Now, Sarah, since you're new this year and you have an unconventional path to our profession, uh, before we dive into the study, I would really love to hear what attracted you from being a PhD to the wonderful world of marketing and agency life, and also share a bit about what the transition's been like.

[00:02:30] Sarah: Oh, that's a fun question. Okay, so yeah, I think my day to days have changed a little bit. I definitely know a lot more cross industry jargon or I'm really, really collecting it as I go through life. But ultimately everything I've always done at school or at any point in my career is still always ultimately about understanding why people think, feel, and act the way they do, and then how I can use that knowledge to help, you know, improve lives.

[00:03:00] Sarah: So it really all ladders up to the same thing and it, we really understand how it all goes together. I left the PhD world, it was wonderful. But as much as I love research on its own, I really felt quite disconnected from doing something with what was being learned. So I wanted to kind of go out in the world a little bit and help share that knowledge with the people who can benefit from it.

[00:03:21] Sarah: And I think on face value, it can seem a bit out of place for a scientist to want to seek out working at a creative agency. But I know that if you listen to the data and if you listen to the science, then it tells us that human creativity is a really essential ingredient in really connecting people to ideas and creating new ideas that actually move people.

[00:03:45] Sarah: Right. And I really wanted to be a part of that. And when I heard about the HumanKind study and I met Tahir, and I met Ryan Roberts, our SVP of Strategy as well. I loved the way that they thought. I was like, they think like me. They get it. This isn't just something they say, this is actually something they really, really care about and live and breathe.

[00:04:02] Sarah: And so I was really excited to join the team.

[00:04:04] Alison: It's absolutely great to have you in our profession. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the HumanKind study today. So Tahir, let's start by having you share a little bit about the study and how it's evolved over the four years.

[00:04:14] Tahir: It's pretty amazing to be here four years in, I guess, now already starting to plan the fifth year.

[00:04:19] Tahir: So the fifth edition is in the works, which is great. And I, I know that we did this last year and we've appeared, I think on the CMA conference a couple years in a row. So maybe there are some people familiar with the study, but, just to very quickly go, you know, to its, its origin. It really fell out of this need to have more Canadian research at hand and, and frankly, our philosophy at Leo is all around humankind and the intimate and deep understanding of human beings and what they need and want and what they dream about, fear and everything that they care about in terms of improving the quality of their life.

[00:04:56] Tahir: And, you know, we just felt as though we never really had this, you know, data that we could go to, uh, and mine that really reflects the mindset of the country. You know, we do research bespoke for clients or particular briefs, and so to truly say that we understand Canadians and human beings better than anyone else, you know, we wanted to create something more proprietary that we could draw from each and every day.

[00:05:24] Tahir: And so that was a bit of a fumbly way of saying how we got to the first edition. And it was very much a, off the side of the desks, you know, we just tried to pull together, uh, as much data as we could. And you can imagine that it's kind of like boiling the ocean. And so over time we've just gotten better and smarter and more efficient at distilling the findings into something that really gets at, uh, perhaps a sharper point of view and what Canadians are thinking and feeling and more

[00:05:50] Tahir: importantly, the way that brands can help solve for those problems and those needs in their lives. And so for this fourth edition, we did change things up a little bit, as you mentioned, off the top. We tried to focus on a younger demos, and Sarah, I'm sure will correct me, as she should, but it was 18 to 45.

[00:06:06] Tahir: I want, no, sorry, 16 to 45.

Sarah: Sixteen!

Tahir: Yes. Yeah. Sixteen. First correction of the podcast. But yeah, so I, the 16 to 45, which is really intentional on our part because we've had so many conversations with our client partners around not just Gen Z, but even Gen Alpha. And I know that that age range doesn't necessarily tip into that demo, but it just helped us get to a perspective from a segment of the population that is typically hard to hear from.

[00:06:35] Tahir: And so it required a bit more effort and you know, a real conscious effort to hear from those voices because you know, as you can imagine with 16, 17, 18 year olds, they're not always so willing to share their point of view or what they fear in life or what they're going through. And I think that was like, what was really eyeopening for us in this edition is when you're starting to see the anxieties and the tensions that not only those of us who are

[00:07:00] Tahir: living life as adults with kids and the pressures of careers and retirement looming for some people, these are people that are really just starting out their lives and to have a better understanding of what they're already struggling with was really eye-opening.

[00:07:14] Alison: I'm looking forward to diving into those results for sure.

[00:07:17] Alison: You also have a longer lens view, uh, and through four fairly tumultuous years, certainly COVID, post-COVID, now the economic uncertainty. So what are some of the key changes that you've seen for Canadians given how tumultuous the time has been?

[00:07:32] Tahir: Yes. I mean, it's interesting. When we first started this, it was hard to get away from, uh, some of those more macro issues that people were struggling with.

[00:07:40] Tahir: Certainly COVID, we started it before COVID, we launched it during COVID. So what we were seeing in terms of feelings of isolation, concerns about, obviously health and safety were big themes in those first few years. And then, you know, last year we saw again the financial uncertainty really, um, be a big factor in people's lives and, and whether or not, you know, they're gonna actually have enough to even, you know, survive, frankly.

[00:08:08] Tahir: This year what we saw was this interesting emerging theme that was through all the different, let's call them sub themes of problems and issues people were facing. So previously we would've had what I would call just, uh, various themes that made up the top problems people were facing. So you could think about the environment, financial situations people were in, their health and wellness, the healthcare system, and so on here in Canada.

[00:08:35] Tahir: This was the first year where we saw a common thread throughout all the different things that people were struggling with. And that was this, this notion of the pressure and the weight of needing to feel like you have to win in life. And so it was interesting to just see that there's this perspective out there that people just need to be better and who they are right now is not good enough.

[00:08:56] Tahir: And so, uh, when you think about what that means and you think about your own lives, frankly, everything from, being a better runner, you know, being a better parent, being a better employee or leader is a sense that like, we always have to be better because who we are right now is not good enough. And meeting expectations means that we're actually coming up short.

[00:09:18] Tahir: And so, you know, and I always think about this example of being better sleepers, as somebody who has struggled off and on with my sleep over my life. I know that there's very little you can do about your sleep, and yet we still have apps that tell us that we could be doing better. So, you know, I think it's getting to this point now where, and there's this quote that I always refer back to from a 23-year-old.

[00:09:40] Tahir: Her name is Sasha and she says, everyone's always, everyone always has to be self-improving. And just being yourself is not enough now. And you know, I think that's one of those quotes that just, when you think about, you know, how we at least try to lead the younger generations, or as parents, you try to help your children understand that who they are is

[00:09:59] Tahir: good enough, and they should be proud of who they are, and they should embrace who they are. And now there's this feeling of, actually no, as I am right now, I'm not good enough. And so there's this quest for betterment that is constantly driving people and as a result, they feel like they're always coming up short.

[00:10:14] Alison: It's an amazing finding. When you think like the quest for betterment on its surface and when you first hear it and think about the desire to improve, they all seem like positive, good, healthy things. But what the research is telling us, is that it's been taken to a point where we can't be content with what we have today and that's really unfortunate.

[00:10:28] Sarah: Yeah. It can go too far. Yeah.

[00:10:30] Sarah: Always trying to be better and never happy enough with today. And I'll add to what Tahir said as well. When we look at that longer lens of having done this for four years is a few years ago, we had circumstances in the world that were out of our control, and people knew that, and they were a little resigned to that, and it was upsetting.

[00:10:47] Sarah: But we've moved out of that and we can look at how Canadian's mindset is changing over, you know, the several years we've been doing this now. And you know, they came out of that swinging a little bit. Like, all right, it's been two years. I need something different. I need change. The world should be better.

[00:11:04] Sarah: Come on people. This has been long enough. That was a little bit more of this like big attitude about it last year and this year they're a little more focused on, okay, maybe not the big change I wanna see is as possible, and that's, that's okay. I still care about improving things and making the world better, but I need to see improvement in my life somewhere and I need to make it happen myself.

[00:11:27] Sarah: So what are the small things that I can control, right? I maybe can't control global events, but what can I do in my life, um, to impact my close world and focus on the things I can control? I still care about climate change. Maybe personally I can't do anything about the forest fires, but what can, can I do?

[00:11:45] Sarah: And just seeing that, like you said, we have that longer lens and seeing this evolution of the mindset of Canadians is really interesting.

[00:11:50] Alison: And also the appreciation that those little steps add up on an individual basis, on a family basis, on a community basis. There's such power.

[00:11:59] Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. Like the impact we can have on the lives of someone right close near us and that matters.

[00:12:05] Sarah: And that's good if the small things are not a failure. Oh, I didn't change this entire system. No, but you made someone's day better, right? Or you made your day a little better. And that is actually, yeah, how we'll get there.

[00:12:16] Alison: So what are some of the other key themes and issues and problems that Canadians are living with and struggling with right now?

[00:12:31] Sarah: so we talk about finance and we look into social relationships with friends and family, people having kids, relationships with parents are of course relevant for this age group of younger people. And obviously there's lots of digital world and online world and things we can explore and the bigger problems.

[00:12:48] Sarah: And then in the report, we really boil them down into to cluster them together in some themes and, I think the this higher level theme that we're seeing of this, the world is so competitive and I feel the need to be better, I have this weight of winning is probably most obvious in people's finances and in their careers right now.

[00:13:08] Sarah: Right? People feel there's only a certain amount to go around and now we're all kind of in competition with one another for it. And we get into in the report how that's affecting, of course, this age group's relationship with work, because of course that's something that is getting talked about a lot and it's a big part of their lives and how they're changing their perspective after many years of their experiences not giving them kind of what they expected they were gonna get out of it.

[00:13:38] Sarah: So there was the old kind of mantra of, you work hard and that will probably lead to success, and the majority of Canadians are really questioning that is true or just fully don't believe that that is true anymore. It kind of sounds like, you know, the reward for hard work is just more hard work. So they're trying to think about how can they change their relationship with work to get more out of it for what they're putting in, in a way that makes a lot of sense.

[00:14:08] Sarah: Right? Not leading to so much burnout, especially the younger generations, especially the Gen Z, who are maybe looking at some burned out millennials who might feel like it's a little too late to change. I don't know what else I could do, but Gen Z are looking at that going. Okay, that's not working for you.

[00:14:23] Sarah: You're doing all that and you still don't have a house, so maybe I'm gonna try and find something different to do. That's a really, I think, obvious place where that theme would come out, but it's really fascinating how we see it across so many different things, though. So this idea of competitiveness isn't just confined to money or jobs or even, I think,

[00:14:43] Sarah: the, you know, relatively obvious space of social media where people have that element of you need to present yourself a certain way and you need to look good. And there's this social competition, but we even see it extending into people's real life social lives as well. So real life interactions with friends and people you know, kind of are starting to have this undercurrent of being oddly performative.

[00:15:08] Sarah: They're very socially anxious, right? Did I do well? Did they judge me well, or did I fail and make myself look stupid and I embarrassed myself? And so this overarching feeling of competition and social anxiety we really see coming through of course, as well. And I think people have heard a little bit about the social anxiety that especially younger generations are experiencing.

[00:15:31] Sarah: Um, and so we really dive into what's going on with that, where that's coming from and what that's leading to.

[00:15:36] Tahir: And Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that stat was like, 73% of Gen Z feels social anxiety. I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot.

[00:15:43] Sarah: No, it is.

[00:15:44] Tahir: I remember that number being like surprisingly high

[00:15:48] Sarah: And it's going up, especially compared to last year.

[00:15:51] Sarah: Yeah. 73% of Gen Z say that there's sometimes, or always very nervous about what to say or how to interact socially. And it's, it's sad, right? Because these are just the moments when you're actually with a person and you're still kind of holding yourself back. You're still kind of separate from one another a little bit.

[00:16:11] Alison: That is such a shocking percentage and a really sad statement. Then if you overlay other research that's been done about the loneliness epidemic in Canada across all different age groups but it's particularly relevant for younger generations. So we have the loneliness pandemic combined with social stage fright, and then the hustle to nowhere, it feels like need to give our younger Canadians more hope and reasons to believe in opportunities and to truly be themselves.

[00:16:39] Sarah: A lot of it's coming from this idea of like me against the world, or they must be trying to get something out of me, right? Everyone's kind of in it for themselves. So, I am hesitant to be vulnerable with this person because they might use it against me.

[00:16:54] Tahir: Hey, just on that, it's always interesting to have these conversations because then you can reflect back on the findings, you know, perhaps in slightly different ways, and the weight of winning was the theme.

[00:17:03] Tahir: But you could probably also say the theme is burnout. Because there's such a pressure to not just be better, but to create this quality of life you, you believed was available to you or that you believed was promised to you in some way. But then when you think about the pressures that people are feeling at such a young age and they're not seeing it pay off, and then they all feel like they're kind of trying to get a piece of the same pie, it becomes this like competitive.

[00:17:31] Tahir: Nature of just, well, if you're winning, that means I'm losing. So that zero sum game, you know, sort of the thought where it's just like, well, I don't know if I necessarily wanna see that person doing better on social media because then it makes me look at my own life. It makes me feel inadequate and makes me feel like I'm not achieving some of the things that maybe I should be achieving.

[00:17:50] Tahir: And so it's kind of like cyclical. And then you see how in the hustle to nowhere, if my memory serves, I believe last year we, we talked about the, the side hustle culture. Like there was a time when that was actually seen as a bit of a badge of honour, you know. And it also kind of represented something different like, well, if I have something on the side, it's maybe a passion project or you know, it's a collaboration, it's an outlet for me that's on top of my, let's call it nine to five.

[00:18:16] Tahir: And now what we're seeing is, for Gen Z and even millennials -- I believe for millennials it's one in four, Gen Z it's one in three, have a second job. So it's moving beyond this "Oh my God, I'm envious that you have this passion project on the side. Maybe I should" to we actually need these second incomes because it's a way of being able to afford life.

[00:18:40] Tahir: Life's basics, frankly, not even nicer things in life or luxuries in life. It's basics. And so even that hustle culture now carries a different feeling and a, and a different perception for the younger people, which is like, I have to do this now. I don't want to necessarily do this, right?

[00:18:58] Sarah: Exactly. It's that evolution of what, 10 years ago or however long ago, with Rise and Grind and Girl Bossing, which I'm gonna start a Boy Bossing hashtag, um, and like, you know, hustle culture and rise and grind.

[00:19:11] Sarah: And they did that. They rose, they grinded, and it didn't... listen, for some people it works out right? There's always some people that can look at this and say, no, this did work for me. But we're talking a majority of Canadians are saying that feels like a bit of a lie. It feels like a trick. It feels like a trick to get me to work more.

[00:19:29] Sarah: I don't have this extra thing on the side because I'm trying to get ahead. I have something on the side because that's the world now because I need two jobs.

[00:19:38] Tahir: In order to afford basic groceries is what we heard from young Canadians. Like I, one quote, which is, I wish I could go to the grocery store and, and just get groceries and not worry about having enough.

[00:19:48] Tahir: And obviously we know there's varying degrees people are living through. I think 83% of people don't feel as though their hard work's gonna pay off. So, you know, it, it really moves the goalposts a bit further, you know, from where, where they were before for a lot of people.

[00:20:01] Alison: When you think of it from a Canadian perspective as well, it's like the other dynamic that's happening that it feels counter to rise and grind and all the hard work that so many Canadians are putting in every day, every week, is our productivity as a nation's gone way down.

[00:20:16] Alison: So if it doesn't feel like we're winning on either side of that equation.

[00:20:19] Tahir: Right. And they also don't see their hard work or their loyalty being, you know, appreciated or, or rewarded by employers, right? So when you hear of headlines like three to 5% of, of the total employee base being laid off or cuts here and so on,

[00:20:39] Tahir: or caps on promotions or whatever it might be. It's hard for young Canadians to look at the current environment and go, well, why should I even do this, because there is no loyalty in, in return, there's no longevity anymore. There's no joining one or two companies and sort of, you know, building your career over time.

[00:20:58] Tahir: And so, and, and the fact that they've also just seen layoffs in their own home, right? They've experienced it themselves. I believe it's like one in three have have experienced a loss of a job in their household. Right? So imagine again, if they're seeing this, whether it's their parents or, you know, depending on their age themselves.

[00:2114] Tahir: Like they're starting to see, again, the pressure that that has on finances as well. And it just, it continues to sort of build this perpetual cycle.

[00:21:23] Sarah: Someone said, why would I be loyal to some company that's not loyal to me? They'll replace me tomorrow. There's a little, you're gonna get yours, I'm gonna get mine.

[00:21:31] Sarah: So it's not that people don't wanna work, it's that they're updating where they're working and how they're working to maximize things for them, because they're thinking, if this company is gonna maximize things for themselves and I'm a number to them, great. I'll show up and I'll do my job. But then I have to have a certain distance with it.

[00:21:49] Sarah: Even for not only finances, but your self image and your worth and everything. Right? I can't put my whole identity in this job because the majority of Canadians think they'll just be, could easily just be replaced tomorrow at their job. And I think we think about in the context you're saying about the productivity in this country.

[00:22:04] Sarah: I think it's an important thing for us to think about when we're thinking about how we motivate these people, how we get the best work out of them because I think they would probably say, and I think the evidence would show that the old approach of, you're just not working hard enough, or more of this, they're a little, show me the money.

[00:22:22] Sarah: They're a little, show me the benefits right now, and that's okay. We can work with that. Right? We just need to adjust how we work with that. These are people who, they wanna work, they want things out of it, they buy into that, but they just wanna make sure it's working for them too.

[00:22:36] Tahir: And I think that's a big misperception of this younger generation, right?

[00:22:39] Tahir: That they're not hard workers and, and the truth of the matter is they are. And the evidence shows that not only in their willingness to, you know, put in the effort and the long hours, but the fact that they have second jobs, you know, while they're building careers. I wouldn't say we had that, or at least had that pressure or had that need to do that.

[00:22:59] Tahir: You know, obviously times were tight, you know, early on in your career, but not where you felt as though you needed a second job just to afford basics and groceries. So, and I would say obviously AI is not helping in that regard, you know? I think there, what we saw this year versus last year, I think last year there was still a lot of the unknown, and so people were really unsure of what this was, and there was probably more anxiety and concern over it than this year.

[00:23:22] Tahir: I think we're seeing, it's still for the most part, 50/50. I just think now we're starting to see people, you know, and for the most part it's, it's Generative AI tools like Chat GPT. But I think there's people that are like, no, this is interesting. It's helping me make, you know, it's helping me do things a bit faster, more efficiently.

[00:23:36] Tahir: It's, I feel a bit smarter as a result of this. And so there is some genuine optimism and, and I would say excitement around what this could become. But then on the flip side of that, there's still concern that at the end of the day, I'm gonna lose my job to AI or it's gonna be outsourced in a certain way, or you know.

[00:23:54] Tahir: So again, like it's, if that continues to compound, those fears and anxieties people have about just being easily replaced.

[00:24:01] Alison: So there's clearly no shortage of angst and very valid concerns and negative sentiment among Canadians right now. What are the opportunities for brands in that? Because brands can always be part of a solution if they understand how Canadians are really feeling.

[00:24:18] Tahir: I mean, that's always the great question, and, and we know, we always try to make sure that the report isn't always just about the doom and gloom. We just find it's, it's important to uncover the, the issues at hand so that we can then really hone in on and identify the ways that brands can be part of the solution.

[00:24:36] Tahir: You know, I'd say out of the gate, one of the big things is just frankly listening. And I know that might just sound a little trite, but the fact that the one step that all that continues to go up every year is the fact that Canadians don't believe brands understand what they're going through. And this year we learned that only 13% believe that brands have their best interests at heart.

[00:25:01] Tahir: And when you're almost in the single digits, I mean, that's, that's alarming. And when you think about, we, you know, we've been in enough market marketing symposiums to know that building relationships with your customers is the key to growth and long-term success and sustainability and so on. A core element of a relationship is that you believe the other person or party has your best interest at heart.

[00:25:27] Tahir: And so when you see that number so low and the fact that people just don't believe brands get what they're going through, just actively listening and demonstrating that you're listening to people and you're designing products and services around what people need versus just what you need to put out into the market.

[00:25:45] Tahir: I think is a, is a massive first step.

[00:25:47] Sarah: While you're talking, I'm thinking about the, a little now over-dated, but the "Okay, Boomer" trend of like, okay, you don't get it, and you can kind of almost take that idea and apply it to brands a little bit. The idea of that's, you're showing me this, okay, you don't get what I'm going through at all.

[00:26:05] Sarah: You're just telling me, oh, I need to save for retirement do I? Cool. We'll get right on that. Like that's not a practical thing in my life right now. So you're clearly signalling to me that you don't actually get what I have going on, and so I'm gonna kind of disregard everything else you might be saying, even if it is beneficial or helpful, and it's not necessarily about like speaking in lingo, but just any of that,

[00:26:29] Sarah: Okay, they get it at all is a bit of a, will I pay attention to this or not, right? Because we know younger generations are really good at ignoring ads, are really good at ignoring brands. And so there's a quick, do they get me? Or are they just doing the same thing they've always done? They're talking to someone from a different time that isn't relevant for me in my life.

[00:26:49] Sarah: And it's not just about brands. It's not that brands are failing people so catastrophically on their own. I know from the research, it's a very skeptical environment in general. Like we said, people aren't even trusting those conversations they're having with their friends entirely. We hear from them

[00:27:07] Sarah: There's a lot of people making promises. No, I am doing something to try and help you. It's like, no, you're not. You're doing something to help yourself, and you're disguising it as trying to help me. So what is the way that we can help overcome that really, really skeptical environment that all brands are operating in?

[00:27:25] Sarah: Right? I mean, the simplest way is show them, don't tell them. Canadians understand, companies, organizations need to make money, and they're not against that by any stretch of the means. It's not, you can't operate, how dare you have profit? It's a little more, but can they feel like there's balance? What's the balance for where I feel like I'm getting something out of it?

[00:27:45] Sarah: And does it feel too one-sided? That's like the first passive judgment is that layer of skepticism and we can overcome it as long as we don't ignore it. How can we make those connections and show up for people in a way that feels authentic and they say, yeah, that's my life. I am not the parent in the giant house with everything going on and that wonderful two cars in the garage and this and that.

[00:28:04] Sarah: It's aspirational, but it's not my life, so it doesn't necessarily speak to me. So things like that, how are we showing up for them?

[00:28:10] Tahir: I think it's embracing their reality. Even reflecting it. We talked about the typical more conventional path to success, or what does a successful life look like? I mean, this younger generation has given up on that being available to them or attainable for them already.

[00:28:27] Tahir: There's a stat in the report, I think it's 43% of Gen Z have given up on the careers they wanted or having the job that they thought they would have, or, you know, basically at such a young age, they've already determined that that's probably not possible. If you then extend that to things like owning a home or having this career that I thought I was going to have as a result of my degree or all of these things that they're, they're now rewriting their own path to success, and so brands just need to reflect that and not always talk in terms of like what might have been more realistic

[00:29:02] Tahir: 10, 20, 30 years ago. How do you even depict those scenarios in advertising? How do brands innovate and design products and offer services that cater to this new path, this new approach, and not just looking at, well, when you're 65 and you retire, and so on, because retirement for one, is not even a, a word in their vernacular anymore.

[00:29:26] Sarah: We all wanna be optimistic, right? We wanna present happiness to people. And so I think brands sometimes get afraid of engaging with the reality because they think it's either, I get sucked down into the darkness and I have to be making like a big emotional speech and saying things about that world. And it's, oh, if I say anything bad, it's a negative tone and I wanna be happy.

[00:29:49] Sarah: I wanna talk about the nice things and I wanna present, um, optimism to the world. It's not one or the other. Because I think with this group, when you present just the, Hey, isn't it great how you know X, Y, and Z can help? It doesn't feel as real to them and it's okay when we connect with a little bit of the difficulty

[00:30:10] Sarah: they have, just a little bit to help show them how we can help them get out of it. Feels much more real and they connect much more to it than just the, Hey, here's this great thing on the other side, which is, I'm, I'm obviously presenting extremes to illustrate the point, but if we think of the brands that are connecting most with people, they're acknowledging the reality, and it's not depressing people because they know that that's their reality right now.

[00:30:37] Sarah: It's not, oh, yeah, never occurred to me that I'm really upset about X, Y, and Z. It's, I am already, I feel seen that makes me trust them more when they say they can make it better.

[00:30:47] Alison: The other benefit of taking that approach is obviously showing empathy, actually gaining credibility with the people you're talking to and for the people that you're marketing to.

[00:30:57] Alison: It helps them understand that, you know what, I'm not in it alone. There are other people around who are also struggling through this, and maybe there are ways that we can come together. Maybe I don't need to be as down on myself as I am.

[00:31:09] Tahir: Maybe Sarah said this, but I think that that came out really loud and clear the theme of the need to win.

[00:31:15] Tahir: Because it's also then about the competitiveness you have with your, with your inner circle as well, right? So it's like, now you're not just competing against those job job applicants. You're competing in life against your friends and your family and so on. It can start to make you feel as though you are on your own a little bit in life, um, which can be a scary place to be.

[00:31:35] Alison: Yes, and the whole social stage fright trend that came out of HumanKind this year that people aren't feeling comfortable and truly being themselves. That just really highlights the degree of this issue and the need as marketers to really acknowledge what Canadians are going through and try to help find solutions. Now, I know you also did a deep dive on newcomers to Canada this year, and I'd love for you to share some of your findings.

[00:31:57] Alison: I know when you presented at the CMA Case for Canada, we had a number of newcomers in the audience and a couple of them came up to you afterwards, literally in tears saying, I feel so seen and I'm so happy to know that it's not just me. So resonated not just with the broader marketing profession, but with the actual newcomers to Canada.

[00:32:15] Alison: So very curious to hear some of those findings.

[00:32:19] Sarah: That's a great illustration of what you just said. Wait, it isn't just me and, and I feel connected now, hearing that it's other people, I thought it was, thought it was just me. So in the report we have a whole chapter on people who are new to Canada and we go into how do each of the themes in the rest of the report show up for them and how, what does that mean for them?

[00:32:37] Sarah: But something that I found really interesting is we looked at a wide range of when people arrived in Canada. So we looked at people who had just arrived in the past year, two to three years, up to 10 years plus to look at not only what is it like when they first get here, but what does it look like a couple years later, three years later, and what does that journey and evolution look like for them?

[00:33:00] Sarah: In a lot of ways, and I think the thing that newcomers connect with is it gets worse before it gets better. So, you know, when you first arrive here, that's a big change. That's a big move, and you expect it to be difficult. They expect, okay, I don't know very many people. My job is new, my home is new.

[00:33:23] Sarah: Everything is new. I'm gonna work really, really hard. This is maybe the worst they'll get. And then in a lot of ways, it's two years later, three years later, and they're like, I don't feel any better. I don't feel like I have more of a community than I used to have. They're laid off at a much higher rate than the rest of Canada.

[00:33:42] Sarah: So many of them within those first couple years of being here, have lost their jobs. So they've had an experience economically that has been very difficult for them. I don't know how Canada's selling itself to the rest of the world, but a lot of people do talk about their economic expectations were different than when they got here.

[00:33:59] Sarah: After they've been here for a while, they start to match how the rest of Canada feels, which is, Hey, wait, there was a promise here that isn't quite paying off, but it does seem like that's not what they expected when they got here. Yeah. It's a couple years in and it's not better. It's harder. I'm still living in a basement or I still only know a couple people from maybe the country that I was from.

[00:34:21] Sarah: It does start to get better after that if they stick with it a bit. But last year in the news, there was this talk about a very high percentage of newcomers were thinking about leaving Canada. I can tell you why now. The difficulties in their lives, like it's three, four years in and it's still really hard and they still feel very alone.

[00:34:40] Tahir: And if you, if you think about what we, we started with in this convo around the pressure, right, that people are feeling and the pressure to succeed or create a life that is quote unquote seen as successful or however you want to call it, you know, they come here with that added pressure of I made this massive leap in my life to create a better life for myself and, and most likely a family that maybe wasn't able to come with you.

[00:35:05] Tahir: And so when that doesn't work out the way you planned, and then perhaps you're seeing people back home where you came from perhaps living a better life, starts to really compound that feeling of, I actually. I failed to some degree. And so, and that's not obviously why you would make the sacrifices that new to Canada make.

[00:35:25] Tahir: But then at the same time, you can see that resilience, right? Because they do stick with it and they do put in the effort and the sacrifices. And so, you know, I think much like young Canadians. Our big takeaway for this year was just the resilience that they're showing and the grittiness and the strength that they have to continue to push despite the fact that they feel as though the world around them is changing and not always for the better.

[00:35:49] Alison: It takes such grit and such bravery to literally pick up your entire life and move to a new country. So you're right, it absolutely is around confidence and self-belief and wanting to create a better future. Now, you also have your second year of being able to compare Canadian findings with the U.S. and this year, more than ever, it would be fascinating to see what emerged.

[00:36:09] Alison: So I'd love you to share some of the differences that you're seeing and also any similarities.

[00:36:14] Tahir: I think what was most surprising was how similar the findings and the data was from across, across markets. So you know, a lot of what Canadians are feeling, a lot of what young Canadians are feeling is similar to how young Americans are feeling and new to America are feeling.

[00:36:29] Tahir: And so there were a couple bigger differences, but overall there was a lot that was similar.

[00:36:36] Sarah: We all know how much cultural sharing and, you know, entertainment sharing there is across borders and how much what they have going on really spreads out and affects other people. And we're obviously here on this side of the world with them.

[00:36:51] Sarah: So when you're at the high level of like, ultimately what are you really concerned about are fundamentally quite similar, right? We're all people, they're not fundamentally different. They know the Canadian dream is a little different than the American dream, but there's some overlap. But then when you see those differences, when you start to move down into what are they doing about it or how is it manifesting, or what kind of solutions do they want?

[00:37:14] Sarah: It was really interesting, especially last year, um, when I was in all the U.S. research, with the Canadians, they might disagree on solutions. But more or less, we all agree what the problems are, versus when we were talking to the Americans, I was like, oh, you don't agree what the problems are. We're further back in the process here.

[00:37:38] Sarah: You know, someone will say that their top concern is X, Y, and Z. Someone will say, that doesn't even bother me at all. I'm concerned about this. So young people in America have much more concern about their physical safety, going to school and being in large groups than people in Canada do. The number two concern for Gen Z in America in last year's study was gun violence and physical safety.

[00:37:59] Sarah: And then there's many small differences, right? So ultimately they have similar directions of opinions about social media for example. There are some concerns how it's influencing, who's doing the influencing. But then when you look at the actual numbers, Canadians are more concerned about that than Americans.

[00:38:18] Sarah: Young Americans will still say that, but it's to a lesser degree. They spend a little more time on social media and on their phones than Canadians do. So it's about those differences that, sometimes when we're talking about it, it can be okay, that these are similarities. And sometimes it's like, no, no, no, this, this nuance does make that difference.

[00:38:34] Sarah: And that's why we do the two different studies. Is kind of what are those fundamental human things or things that are affecting all of us? And then really, when it comes down to it, what are the ways that that we're different and that that matters?

[00:38:44] Alison: Clearly there is wonderful fodder for marketers and brands coming to the HumanKind study and Tahir, earlier in the conversation you shared

[00:38:52] Alison: the biggest opportunity is really to listen and become more aware of how Canadians are feeling and be able to really understand and then empathize with Canadians. What else would you recommend for our listeners in how they can action the HumanKind study moving forward?

[00:39:11] Sarah: I think the biggest single risk for brands right now is just to not be relevant, is to just focus too inward.

[00:39:21] Sarah: Focus on what you are doing and how you wanna present yourself to the world, and how you wanna be seen and realize that that's from 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's, it's, they're ignoring you. They're not fighting back against you necessarily. But I think kind of the biggest thing we're up against is there's so much vying for everyone's attention and we just won't get seen.

[00:39:44] Sarah: They're doing very quick - is this relevant to me or not? So that next piece is what is most relevant for your brand and what you are doing, and how can we do the same thing we've done here for all of Canada, for your audiences, your consumers, so that you can be showing up for them the way they need to see you.

[00:40:05] Tahir: I would just jump in to say the big reason why we did this was to really identify the problems that need to be solved. Obviously, not every problem. But when we always find the biggest and brightest and more, most compelling ideas that we come up with, they clearly help solve a problem. And you know that that's where we can't shy away from what these problems are.

[00:40:32] Tahir: And we can't say we don't know them or don't understand them because that's what this work is intended to unearth. And so I would say that's the big push. And we have client partners who have literally taken insights or data points from this study and said, we need to do something about that. And I did another podcast just all around the Just Talk campaign we did with Bell that really went at the loneliness epidemic from last year's study, because it just, it struck the, the leads over there as this is something that we can help with.

[00:41:01] Tahir: As a brand, credibly. You know, and I think that would be the second big piece, is that credibility piece, that authenticity piece. So we have the a point in the, in the report around the A word, you know, and not wanting to always throw around authenticity because to be your authentic self can sometimes just feel like it's, it's an obvious statement, but you know, again, the point that it's making is - know who you are as a brand.

[00:41:25] Tahir: Don't try and, and be something you're not. But then, be transparent in what you are trying to do and how you're trying to help, and then walk the talk, you know? So I think that's the big thing is like, so when you think about innovation pipelines and products and services that you're creating and designing against, this is an opportunity to design against problems that exist that people are struggling with, that have an impact on their lives.

[00:41:51] Tahir: And you can do something about it and solve it. And in doing so, you create that relationship, that bond with your consumers that will will, you know, last the test of time, hopefully.

[00:42:03] Alison: Before I let you go, one last question. So I'd love you both to share one piece of career advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps.

[00:42:11] Alison: You both have very different pathways, um, and experiences in marketing. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your answer.

[00:42:18] Tahir: I feel like I'm gonna say the same thing I did last year. For me, it was always just about hard work, but I'm actually gonna change that now in context of what we've been talking about today.

[00:42:25] Tahir: But just listening. Like I, I was fortunate to have some really great mentors throughout my career and in, in addition to just, you know, I'm always told, put your head down, work hard. You know, I think what we're learning in this study is just putting your head down and working hard is not always going to help you achieve what you wanna achieve, but I've always found

[00:42:45] Tahir: really listening to people's advice and direction and feedback, whether it was positive or more constructive and never stopping that. Like I've never, no matter where I get to, what level I get to or what have you, you know. I listen to, I find Sarah brilliant and fascinating and I learn something from Sarah every time we speak.

[00:43:07] Tahir: And so I think to me, that's been something that I have always done and will continue to do, uh, in my career.

[00:43:13] Alison: That's great advice. You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter if you're a student. It doesn't matter if you're a CEO. That is always part of your career success and your career journey.

[00:43:21] Sarah: Over to you.

[00:43:22] Sarah: I think maybe I'm considered someone who followed a less traditional career path. I think that's probably more of the future and traditional career paths are becoming maybe a little less common. I think most of the people I know who are successful and happy at work have had winding career paths because they followed what really interested them and excited them

[00:43:43] Sarah: rather than pigeonholing themselves into a particular job title or a particular idea of a job that, you know, they fall in love with the idea or they look at something and that I'm gonna have that job title in a certain number of years, or I'm gonna work in that industry in a certain number of years, instead of focus on what you really enjoy.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Chase your passions a little bit, but also it's work. We know, maybe it's not passions. Just find some things that you like and find the roles that you can do that allow you to do those. And take every opportunity. You might have an opportunity that comes up that doesn't seem like it's perfectly aligned with a linear path that you have in your mind, but you're gonna be collecting those experiences and that's what you're going to bring to the table later on.

[00:44:30] Sarah: And it's, it's follow the things you love. And hone the skills that you're good at. I also have one piece of very practical advice for people that I give them as well, which is learn to write. Um, I think very practically, as a professional now, um, and as someone who was a teaching assistant at the University of Toronto,

[00:44:39] Sarah: for many, many years, and I've read many, many essays. Learn to write. Writing is not my natural forte. It's probably the thing I struggled with most in my life. But I'm here today because of a report I helped write. I took extra classes when I was in undergrad to learn how to write better. Because you're an ideas person and you think I have great ideas.

[00:45:13] Sarah: Your idea is kind of only worth as much as you're able to communicate it.

[00:45:17] Tahir: Can I throw one build on that, that brings it back to the study? Which is, with AI and with tools like Chat GPT. We do have a point made in the report about the loss of critical thinking and original thinking, so I would encourage all of the younger people who hopefully are listening to this to challenge yourself to get your own

[00:45:43] Tahir: thinking down and write your own thinking out. Because when you're just gonna use Chat GPT to arrive at those ways in, you're gonna lose the ability to think critically and originally, which is what ideas really need to thrive.

[00:46:00] Sarah: You know, it might help you get the grade in the class in that month, but when you're out in the world, it's not about that anymore.

[00:46:08] Sarah: You wanna stand out from a sea of same. So yeah, you can use all these tools to help you, but new ideas and that critical thinking element will always have a case. So yeah, for sure. I agree with Tahir on that. There's tools that are helpful, but make sure you're learning how to express yourself and form your own ideas,

[00:46:25] Sarah: and have unique ideas.

[00:46:26] Alison: Absolutely outstanding advice. Thank you both and thank you for a really great conversation.

[00:46:30] Tahir: Our pleasure. Thanks for having us again, Alison.

[00:46:38] Presenter: Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news and industry trends.