Marketers have a lot to lose. With complaints surging, mistakes can lead to hefty fines while playing it safe can limit innovation and creativity. So what can they do? CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Harroun, Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC to see where the complaints are coming from, and share the strategies marketers use to stay both competitive and compliant.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:28:07 - 00:01:00:20 Alison It's my pleasure to welcome Steven Harroun, a regulatory leader whose expertise sits at the critical intersection of marketing compliance and consumer protection in Canada's digital landscape. As a Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC, Steven oversees the enforcement of laws and regulations that directly impact how Canadian marketers operate, including CASL, Canada Anti-Spam Legislation and the Unsolicited Telecommunication Rules, including the National Do Not Call list, which both shape the daily practices of marketing professionals in Canada.

00:01:00:22 - 00:01:34:13 Alison While Steven's primary role focuses on regulatory enforcement, his unique position makes him an invaluable voice for marketers navigating Canada's complex compliance landscape. Steven and his team are highly valuable partners to the CMA. He has written articles for us addressing the practical challenges that marketers face when contacting Canadian consumers, while ensuring they're staying compliant with federal regulations. Steven's recent article "From CASL to unsolicited calls: Insights for marketers", really demonstrates his commitment to helping marketing professionals understand and adapt to evolving regulatory requirements.

00:01:34:15 - 00:01:59:06 Alison Steven brings over two decades of experience in telecommunications policy and regulation, having joined the CRTC in 2002 after working at the Canada Revenue Agency and in the private sector. Through his work, Steven has developed international partnerships with regulators worldwide, creating memoranda of Understanding that help enforce Canadian marketing laws across borders, which is a critical capability in today's global digital marketing environment.

00:01:59:08 - 00:02:05:03 Alison Steven, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to an engaging and insightful conversation.

00:02:05:05 - 00:02:21:22 Steven Thank you Alison. That's probably too kind of an introduction, but I appreciate it. And I truly appreciate the invitation. Like, engagements like this are like one of the favourite parts of my role in the organization. And, if I could do one of these every day, I would. So, no, I look forward to the discussion.

00:02:21:23 - 00:02:42:23 Alison Thank you. Now, Steven, the CMA and the CRTC have a long- standing, very collaborative relationship, from coauthoring thought leadership to working on key consumer choice initiatives. Building on that foundation of shared understanding, what do you see as the most important evolution in the dialog between regulators and the marketing community over the past few years?

00:02:43:01 - 00:03:14:12 Steven Yeah, I, let me start with something probably your members already know. But the CRTC, you know, we're an independent quasi judicial administrative tribunal, right? So we regulate communications in Canada in the public interest. We hold public consultations on like telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on a public record. Now, if you turn to my role at the CRTC, which is a little bit unique, and it is unique to kind of have an enforcement arm embedded within the communications regulator, and I was gonna say perhaps I'll get to tell you later about the advantages of that.

00:03:14:14 - 00:03:33:17 Steven But, you know, I am responsible and accountable for promoting compliance, as you said, with Canada's anti=spam legislation in which we affectionately call CASL. And if you actually went to look at the real name of that legislation it's about 42 words long, so CASL works really well, as well as the unsolicited telecommunications roles, which includes our national Do Not Call list.

00:03:33:17 - 00:03:50:09 Steven Right. So that's which is kind of probably a key piece, you know, for your members here. I'm super proud, and I, you know, I started this by saying, I appreciate the invitation, but I'm, I'm super proud of kind of the relationship that we have with industry and specifically the CMA, because I feel like it's very longstanding for me, which is great.

00:03:50:09 - 00:04:09:16 Steven I think one of my first engagements when I stepped into this chair a few years ago was with the CMA. So I'm glad we've been able to continue this discussion, because educating on compliance, ensuring that marketers understand their obligations, take that bigger, just ensuring that all kind of legitimate companies in Canada understand the rules of the road, if you will.

00:04:09:18 - 00:04:34:05 Steven That's key to the success rate. Compliance is key to my success. So at the end of the day, if the more and more outreach activities like this that we do and you're right, we've done vlogs, we're doing this, you know, maybe next year I'll get to do some in-person thing with you guys, perhaps something that's, on the radar. But it's actually these collaborations and these unique opportunities where I get to kind of, you know, talk about, well, this is the world as I see it today.

00:04:34:10 - 00:04:57:18 Steven You know, and kind of the premise of your question was exactly that, like today. So I look back and I look back and, you know, I look back ten years and go, the things that we were seeing then and the complaints that we were seeing then from Canadians and the environment in which we're operating, we're very much focused on telemarketing and people getting calls and people, you know, I was going to say deciding whether or not they wanted to get calls right?

00:04:57:19 - 00:05:20:06 Steven Now, ironically, you know, it's ten years since CASL came into force this year, just in July. So that dialog has changed, right? Even over, even with your organization over the past decade, that dialog has changed. We are now talking about not just about calls. We are now talking about emails, and we're talking about SMS and we're talking about other digital platforms, perhaps that we hadn't even contemplated the early days of CASL.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:41:00 Steven Right? We were talking about will you agree to get my email that's exploded kind of exponentially, even just from that, from that side of the house. So I think that's interesting to me, and I think that's fascinating as far as a landscape perspective goes, the legislation on the telemarketing side is 20 years old. You know, the even on CASL now, it's actually hard to believe for me to say that that's ten years old.

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:01:11 Steven But the environment in which we, you know, we ensure compliance within those regimes has just changed dramatically. And I look at, from my organization and if I look at kind of how we're trying to approach that. We, and I'm sure and I'm sure we'll get into this discussion, like your members have had to totally change things up completely. Like we, in the last ten years

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:17:17 Steven I built up a technical forensics team, you know, and I, you know, and I have a whole group of people now who, who slice and dice all the intelligence that we receive. But, you know, then we also have to look at when we're doing major investigations, we have to look at people's devices. And we have to understand, I was going to say, I'm no engineer, right?

00:06:17:17 - 00:06:35:02 Steven I'm really lucky, or a techie engineer. I'm really lucky that I get to lead a really great team of really cool, really technical people. But they can look at all this coding and they can look, you know, behind the screen and they can tell me like, oh, this is happening and this is where this is and this, which, which fascinates me.

00:06:35:02 - 00:06:53:18 Steven And if you told me ten years ago I'd lead a team of forensics experts, I would have, I would have said, I must be changing jobs, but I'm not, because that's just how much the environment has changed which I think it's really cool. But then I, you know, if I go to where your members are sitting and the things that they need to do, it isn't just calling Canadians about something, right?

00:06:53:18 - 00:07:09:19 Steven It's how are we reaching Canadians on so many different levels in so many different platforms? And most importantly for me, because I go back to my compliance roots, is how are we respecting Canadians' choices? Like how are we respect, like this is how I want to be engaged, and this is how often I want to be engaged. And you know what?

00:07:09:22 - 00:07:26:11 Steven I don't want to be engaged anymore. Right? Like that's the other side of that. So I, you know, it's easy for me to sit here as, you know, the Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement and say, do this, do this, do this and respect this, respect this, respect this. But I also, I understand, I was gonna say I worked in private sector at the early start in my career.

00:07:26:11 - 00:07:45:16 Steven Actually, I understand the other side of that where it's like, okay, but we want to push all the levers we can, obviously, to get our message out. So that, to me, that the technological space and how much things have evolved in our conversations over the ten years is really fascinating to me. And I'll be honest, what keeps my team up at night is actually the more nefarious actors in this space, right?

00:07:45:16 - 00:08:08:06 Steven Because with all this technological advancement and all this, these different ways to engage Canadians, and if you will, all the ways to kind of run around the year, move around the legitimate ways of doing business, I now have, we now have, it's not just me. We now have Canadians who are fearful to answer the phone, don't know whether to click on a link, don't know whether this is coming from Company X or not.

00:08:08:07 - 00:08:24:05 Steven It's, I think it's creating such a challenging perspective. And I think it's really hard, as me, like as a regulator and my, my ultimate goal is just to stay ahead of all that. I would never consider the fact that we're leading edge, but if I can stay close to that edge to understand where things are going and try and keep ahead of it.

00:08:24:07 - 00:08:39:06 Steven If you've heard me speak before, I often, you know, I often say, I want to, I want to disrupt the activities of the bad actors. And then on the other side, after I've done that, I want to hire them, because they're so savvy and they're so technical experts and they're so nimble. And I feel like, oh, have I got a job for you.

00:08:39:06 - 00:08:59:16 Steven Like, if you will, use your powers for good as opposed to other ulterior motives. But, you know, I think the biggest challenge we have is just keeping pace with innovation. But I think, you know, for me, it's how do I give the best advice possible? How do I ensure that our perspective on compliance remains relevant for the activities that your members want to pursue?

00:08:59:18 - 00:09:37:01 Alison And Steven, it's so helpful to have someone in your role who does have the private sector experience as well as deep, robust public sector experience, and really can understand the importance of both of those stakeholders. And then to your point, where there's so much evolving in our profession from a technology perspective, from a broader marketplace perspective. So our ongoing collaboration to ensure that we are acting in the best interests of Canadian consumers and also ensuring that businesses and brands can continue to grow and thrive, drive our economy.

00:09:37:03 - 00:09:59:09 Alison That's a very important goal that we are both very united on. So your role gives you a really unique and very valuable view into the concerns that Canadians have about advertising and marketing. And I know our listeners will be very interested to hear what are the top issues and complaints that the CRTC has received from Canadian consumers over the last 12 months?

00:09:59:11 - 00:10:16:16 Steven Yeah, it's interesting and kind of a piece from the previous question about how the environment has changed, the complaints of Canadians have changed as well. I know kind of where we're headed over the next few months just by what I've seen the last few months, and we're seeing that real surge in complaints just related to kind of unwanted digital communications.

00:10:16:16 - 00:10:29:08 Steven And I'll even go past the email and I was going to say, my son will tell me, email is so paste, you're like, you know, you need to be on Instagram and you need to be on Snapchat. You need to be on all these other things, and folks are taking advantage of that, which is good, as a good, strong marketer should.

00:10:29:10 - 00:10:46:16 Steven But then I go to the other side about engaging those people properly is really important. And I'm fascinated, my 6 or 7 years sitting in this chair, that the number one complaint at the end of the day remains the same, which is always about consent. And it remains, you know, like a) they're not supposed to call me, I'm on the Do Not Call list.

00:10:46:18 - 00:11:03:02 Steven B) I've never consented to receive this email. C) Yes, I said they could e-mail me. I didn't realize it was going to be 80 times a day because a sale is about to end. Like those types of things, right? So I'm fascinated that even in this day and age, it really is about that. Consent, consent, consent, when we're talking legitimate.

00:11:03:02 - 00:11:26:21 Steven And let's be, let me be clear on that. You know, from legitimate communications, the number one complaint remains consent. And we can get into that a little bit later. But then there's also the frustration which I expressed to you earlier, just on the more nefarious actors. Right? So now people don't know if it really is the Netflix, you know, email or the network's text message saying, oh, we couldn't process your payment or, you know, people don't know if it's like really their financial institution.

00:11:27:02 - 00:11:48:06 Steven We, at the Government of Canada face lots of impersonation, which is challenging, right? Because all of these scams, if you will, are really targeted to just get financial information, get personal information to do more nefarious activities behind the scenes. Right? So I often talk about how I'm going to address that with consumers. Right? How I'm going to deal with that with Canadians.

00:11:48:06 - 00:12:08:04 Steven And we operate under a civil regulatory regime. Right? So and that's kind of that's kind of important to understand, because I can ensure compliance with all the legitimate companies in Canada. And I would suggest that I probably have 95% plus compliance, because legitimate companies just need to know the rules and how to comply with the rules, because they're very familiar that there are rules to follow.

00:12:08:06 - 00:12:37:09 Steven There's some of the things we're talking about here, about government impersonation or brand impersonation, those types of things, like those are for the most part, criminal in nature. They're the only, the only goal in that communication to a Canadian is to steal information. Financial, personal whatever. So it's fascinating. I've got a really cool tech forensics team which can help me understand all that, and slice and dice all that, and understand, are we talking legitimate companies perhaps doing something inappropriate or not compliant with whatever piece of legislation we're talking about, or the other side of that

00:12:37:09 - 00:12:58:12 Steven is, or are they really just illegitimate companies trying to do illegitimate things and inappropriate things? I'm super lucky. I'm constrained by a civil regulatory regime. Fair. But I have lots of other levers I can pull, right? I'm embedded within a telecommunications regulator. So the way the Telecom Act is structured in Canada, I can impose certain conditions on TSPs, and I can ask them to do certain things.

00:12:58:16 - 00:13:22:10 Steven You know, they can't willingly, if you will, disrupt traffic, whether that's telephony traffic or whether that's, you know, email traffic or SMS traffic, they have to push it through. They have to pass it through. Just if you will, a pipe, that's where the traffic flows. As the regulator, I can say, oh, but wait a minute, we have evidence to suggest that this type of activity with this type of technical background, all that stuff behind it, is actually fraudulent.

00:13:22:12 - 00:13:47:07 Steven And, for me, to protect Canadians in this space, because ultimately Canadians don't actually care if I have a civil powers or criminal powers or whatever. They just want the calls to stop. They want the emails to start, they want the text messages to stop that are potentially going to try and take their information. So I'm able to kind of leverage some regulatory policy tools to say, okay, TSPs, if you see this activity, I suggest you don't pass that on to Canadians.

00:13:47:11 - 00:14:06:19 Steven And we've had some really great success on both the telephony side. And we're working on the CASL side of the house as far as like where we can stop traffic that we know is truly illegitimate. So a) that protects Canadians because the phone never rings, the email never lands in their inbox, the text message never arrives that says, oh, update your information and maybe you don't.

00:14:06:21 - 00:14:28:11 Steven Or you do, unknowingly and unsuspecting anything you know untoward, but b) it actually helps the legitimate companies establish themselves as trusted brands, right? Because if you don't have all the, if you will, the the noise around it, trusted brands, trusted marketers, trusted organizations can get their message clearly to Canadians, and Canadians can trust what they're receiving.

00:14:28:11 - 00:14:50:21 Steven So yeah. So so for me it's it's the complexity has changed of complaints. It's no longer about they shouldn't be calling me. The other side of that is, the Canadians' complaints are becoming much more sophisticated. Right?People are now aware of their personal information rights, their privacy rights. So Canadians are much more sophisticated as well in how they're engaging with the regulator. And they're saying, wait a minute, the like, they're not allowed to do this or they shouldn't do this.

00:14:50:21 - 00:15:15:01 Steven And, you know, those types of things. So I appreciate the sophistication of the complaints that I receive. I appreciate them pointing me to all types of, of, of activities going on in this space. And we try, bit by bit, whether it's through civil to regulatory policy, even just through educating Canadians. You know, I, you know, I do this for, you know, these compliance things across all kinds of different organizations and industries like this.

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:28:17 Steven But I also, you know, place a huge effort on how do I educate Canadians in this space, because if I can't stop some of those activities, it really does come down to, the more Canadians are aware, the more they're educated, the less likely they are to fall victim.

00:15:28:19 - 00:15:44:17 Alison The CMA is very proud to manage the Do Not Mail service, which is a cornerstone of consumer choice in the physical marketing world. From the CRTC's perspective, how valuable are these kinds of industry-led self-regulatory models? You know, complementing the work that you're doing in your mandate?

00:15:44:19 - 00:16:03:08 Steven It's amazing, my answer is, I love it, I love it, I love it. So how's that, as, as, as the regulator and as the person accountable in this organization for trying to respect Canadians' choices, I love initiatives like this. It's been around a long time, which is which is fantastic. And now I need to figure out how do I permeate that through everything.

00:16:03:08 - 00:16:25:01 Steven Right? And we need a Do Not Text list and we need a Do Not kinds of lists. But I also want to make it easier for Canadians. So that's you know, that's the other side of that piece. Compliance activities, they take a lot of time, but they're worth it, right, at the end of the day. And this is the best part of my job as far as, you know, just educating industry, educating consumers, educating Canadians. Enforcement, which, you know, at the end of the day, I enforce when necessary.

00:16:25:01 - 00:16:42:22 Steven Right? There are folks who don't follow the rules. Sometimes they didn't know there were rules. Sometimes they just, you know, don't like the rules, so they don't abide by them. But enforcement activities take time, right? They take time. They take resources. I often say I could have the entire CRTC working on anti-spam and telemarketing cases, right? Across the two regimes

00:16:42:22 - 00:17:04:05 Steven I get about 6000 complaints a week. My teams have to be strategic on the cases that we select, you know, with a huge focus kind of on, like, where's the biggest bang for our buck, and where is it impacting Canadians the most? Those types of things, and our strategic assessments on the types of cases that we pursue through an enforcement, which can take several months, even over a year, to make sure we have that kind of fulsome case.

00:17:04:07 - 00:17:25:22 Steven But things like this, like this, if you will, the self-regulation or co-regulation model or even permissive model is really fantastic. And, you know, I talked earlier just about kind of my regulatory policy and tools that I can use. And and I have a really great case from the pandemic, when there was like huge telemarketing scams going on because everybody was home and all of a sudden answering their phone. And they needed, I was going to say, I feel like they needed someone to talk to.

00:17:25:22 - 00:17:49:14 Steven Right? So they are actually willing to pick up the phone and maybe who knows who they were talking to. But during the pandemic, there was this huge scam going on and in the telephony space. And Bell Canada came to us at the time and they said, oh, like we think we've, if you will, analyzed it so narrowly that we can stop these calls if you give us permission. Back to as a quasi-judicial administrative tribunal,

00:17:49:16 - 00:18:12:11 Steven you know, we put that out there in the public. And we said, you know what? A major TSP wants to do this. Are there any concerns? Of course there are concerns, right? At the end of the day, it can take personal rights, freedoms. Why are you stopping my traffic? Why are you doing all that? But we built all the safe parts into, if you will, the model that they wanted to present and how they wanted to stop that traffic, things like false positives and how do they rectify that, and how do we ensure that they're doing the right thing?

00:18:12:11 - 00:18:32:03 Steven And can we make them report so that we know what they're doing, right? Full transparency. And, you know, as a regulator where we're all for, you know, 1,000% transparency on what it is we're doing, especially if we're affecting Canadians traffic, whether that be email or telephony. So they've used AI with, you know, kind of a human verification component to look at this particular piece of traffic.

00:18:32:04 - 00:18:58:01 Steven And since 2021, I think they've stopped like 6 billion calls. You know, they're averaging like 1 billion calls a year. Those are calls that never reached Canadians. Those phones have never rang. They have never been subject to that scam. And I would suggest over 6 billion calls, I think there's been two false positives. So that just goes to show that even just the regulatory process, like that works. It still remains

00:18:58:01 - 00:19:19:12 Steven just such a tremendous success. So, you know, so that idea you know, that's sort of in my mind similar to that kind of, you know, co-regulation, self-regulation. Let us do this, let this permissive type of thing. So I'm always encouraging folks, especially when I'm talking to kind of the industry folks, is, if you've got any really good ideas and you think you know how you can address this particular problem, definitely come see me.

00:19:19:14 - 00:19:41:18 Alison That's great. In many ways, it sounds like this collaborative model can really help serve as a blueprint for future challenges, so it will benefit everyone involved.

Steven Absolutely.

Alison Now Steven, you've touched on this a bit, but to help our members align even more closely with CRTC's approach. could you give us a bit of a look behind the curtain at the philosophy that guides your enforcement strategy?

00:19:41:20 - 00:20:04:00 Steven I always say there's a reason I'm a Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement. There's a reason Compliance comes first in my title, because ultimately that's our goal. I have pieces of legislation which I need to ensure compliance. Obviously, part of compliance is actually enforcement, right? And enforcement is just a tool that we use under compliance. And we've kind of, feel like we've really kind of expanded that model as far as the compliance model goes.

00:20:04:00 - 00:20:20:01 Steven So a) I talked about regulatory policy. There are lots of tools and levers that I can pull on the regulatory policy side, to deal with some of the things that I actually can't enforce. And I go back to, you know, I'm a civil regime, so I'm restricted, but I can use some policy measures to stop some of those more nefarious activities.

00:20:20:01 - 00:20:42:01 Steven I'm always about, what is impacting Canadians the most? Someone recently asked, what keeps you up at night? And I'll be perfectly honest, it's actually that I haven't done enough for Canadians. We all hear stories, like every day in the news about how Canadians have been defrauded or scammed or whatever. And even though, you know, I may have limited powers, that's what keeps me up at night.

00:20:42:01 - 00:21:03:14 Steven And, you know, and I often say, you know, in Canada we have, March is Fraud Prevention Month and October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month. And and I say, I love these months for all the wrong reasons, because, you know, national news outlets or whatever, they go and find all the horrible stories and they're horrible. People who lose their life savings, people who fall victim to a scam.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:20:05 Steven People have lost their homes or, everything. They are all horrible. But I appreciate it from, the more Canadians are aware, the less likely they are to fall victim. There are certain things that keep me up in the night about protecting Canadians, because ultimately that's our goal in this space, and that should be, the members of the CMA,

00:21:20:05 - 00:21:44:05 Steven that should be their goal as well. Right? It goes back to trusted brand and it goes back to respectful communication, and it goes back to those types of things and engaging the consumer when they want to be engaged and not engaging them when they're not. But from an enforcement strategy, we've really tried to take an expanded approach on things like this, things on how we engage Canadians, and then enforce, where necessary, but being innovative there as well.

00:21:44:07 - 00:22:03:02 Steven From alternative case resolution. I've mentioned that a full-on enforcement case can take many, many months, up to two years in some cases, if they're, you know, if they're a little more technically involved. But alternative case resolution is really like, oh, we see a problem with a legitimate player. We kind of package that up and say, okay, this is what we're seeing.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:22:10 Steven We should have a discussion and land somewhere where we quickly get to a resolution. A really good example of that from an ACR perspective, maybe not from a society perspective. But last year we did an enforcement action with Hudson's Bay, which really was, we were receiving a plethora of complaints, like so many complaints, that we're like, okay, there's something wrong here.

00:22:22:10 - 00:22:41:13 Steven Someone's pushed the wrong button, someone's done something wrong that we're seeing so many complaints. So, you know, my folks kind of, if you will, put together a very kind of quick case, like, this is what we're seeing. This is the consistency in the complaints. We've tested these particular pieces, uncharacteristically, but more in line with alternative case resolution,

00:22:41:14 - 00:22:58:14 Steven we actually reached out to the Bay. We said, okay, we think we see a really big problem here. Maybe it's something that you're not seeing. Maybe it's something that you're not aware of. Maybe you've changed providers on doing a particular activity or something. But we see a huge problem here. Hudson Bay - amazing. Happy to come to the table.

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:18:13 Steven Happy to discuss. Happy to go back into their organization going, okay, like we've got to figure this out and kind of came back and said, you know what? We were wrong. Like, we were wrong. Our unsubscribe wasn't working. We were not respecting the ten day deadline. It wasn't easy, you know, for folks. So it really did focus a lot on that unsubscribe piece, which is really like people saying, I don't want to hear from you anymore.

00:23:18:13 - 00:23:42:14 Steven And, you know, and that hurts when someone wants to break up with you, but you have to respect their choice. And, and you know, and that's the case. But, but in that scenario, within six months, which is short from an investigation standpoint, we were able to gather all the evidence, come up with an assessment, talk to the party involved and come to a resolution which was then putting in a compliance program to make sure you know, that type of issue didn't happen again, documenting those practices.

00:23:42:16 - 00:24:03:06 Steven And ultimately, you know, they paid an administrative monetary penalty as well because the violations were huge, as far as the number of people who were expressing that type of issue. So, but that's kind of a really good example of, there's lots of different ways, right, to, it doesn't have to be full-on enforcement action. And, you know, administrative monetary penalties, it can be something like this, which is quick and easy.

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:19:21 Steven It can be a negotiated settlement. It can be just coming to an agreement that, oh, when you engaged a third party to do this for you, you know, to give you a different perspective, they need to make sure they're complying with all the rules. And you don't get to contract away your obligations. So it's also, you know, doing your own due diligence.

00:24:19:21 - 00:24:38:20 Steven It's also just understanding if someone else is acting on your behalf or someone else is doing something on your behalf, you are ultimately accountable. So you know, so that's that's also an interesting perspective as well. So you know, I think for me it it really does come down to being as innovative and creative, there's more than one way to achieve compliance.

00:24:38:21 - 00:24:57:03 Steven One of the things we do twice a year on our website is we publish what we call our CASL dashboard. We tell you how many complaints we've got, where the areas of those complaints is, what categories those fall into. We talk about any kind of regulatory policy work we've done. We do publish so that Canadians are well aware of what we're trying to do in this space.

00:24:57:04 - 00:25:16:09 Steven And then on an annual basis, on the telemarketing side, we publish an annual Do Not Call list report every fall, which talks about, like these are the complaints we saw, these are the actions we took. It really gives a good snapshot. And I actually think it's useful for compliance folks in any particular organization to go look and say, oh, wait a minute, retail is an issue or oh, direct marketing is an issue.

00:25:16:09 - 00:25:25:18 Steven And what are Canadians complaining about. And you can drill down do you see in those those documents to kind of understand it. And if don't, then you can always reach out to us so that you can get ahead of it.

00:25:25:20 - 00:25:52:04 Alison Those are great resources for marketers and the broader business community as well. And we are absolutely in passionate agreement about the importance of putting Canadian consumers at the centre of everything we do and operating in very ethical, transparent and respectful ways. It's written into the code of ethics that the CMA has on behalf of the marketing profession, and anyone that's part of the CMA from a brand perspective,

00:25:52:04 - 00:26:10:12 Alison It absolutely has helped with that important criteria. So we are very much aligned on that for sure. Now, I would love you to share what you're seeing and how Canadians are responding to marketing, because again, you have such a unique lens on this, and what are three lessons that you would offer for marketers based on what you've been seeing?

00:26:10:14 - 00:26:27:15 Steven Well, I feel like we could probably take the entire length of this podcast to talk about what Canadians tell me. We, as I said, get 6000 complaints a week from Canadians. At the top of this podcast, you know, you talked about just our international work and our memorandums of understanding and how critical that is. And I actually cannot stress that enough.

00:26:27:15 - 00:26:51:09 Steven You know, every country around the world, and certainly like countries, there are similar countries who have similar, you know, regimes, if you will, in the communication space. We all have domestic legislation and we've got an international problem. So those memorandums of understanding are critical, a) to assist with enforcement actions because often folks impacting some of the things that Canadians are concerned about maybe don't reside in Canada.

00:26:51:09 - 00:27:11:21 Steven So, you know, I need to kind of exercise those MOUs there. But more importantly, like just for information sharing and intelligence sharing. And how did you address a particular issue? I'm sure out there you could see how waves of campaigns or waves of discontent, if you will, kind of just go around the world, right? Like, and there's all these different campaigns that kind of flow around.

00:27:11:21 - 00:27:27:15 Steven So, you know, if I can talk to my colleague in New Zealand or if I can talk to my colleague in the UK, or just this week, I just signed an MOU with, the communications regulator in Ireland. If I can pick up the phone, call them and say, okay, I am seeing this, how did you guys approach it?

00:27:27:15 - 00:27:50:04 Steven Have you seen it yet? There's always a good question. But you know, if you did, what kind of what kind of message it take and what did you how did you work with your industry involved in this and how did you work with the communications folks that you perhaps regulate to try and address this particular thing? Those agreements are critical when we've got a global problem, right, at the end of the day, on the more nefarious side of the house, but that affects Canadians, and it goes back to trusted brands.

00:27:50:04 - 00:28:07:07 Steven Online shopping probably is one of the number one hits that we get. Food, drug, health, especially on the drug side. Business to business people don't necessarily, I can say, maybe don't understand, you know. A lot of the business to business rules are, if you will, less constrictive. You know, they're very permissive, right? Business to business, you've got to be able to do business.

00:28:07:09 - 00:28:21:16 Steven But I think there's a lot of probably grey area there about, you know, what you're allowed to do with another business, etc.. Those are kind of the categories. And I encourage you go to our dashboard, I encourage you go to our reports because you'll see a much more robust discussion that I'm giving you on that.

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:37:06 Steven The top complaints I get, and we were talking about this earlier is, I did not give consent to get this email. I did not give consent to get this text message. The one thing I preach every time in front of every industry that I speak to is consent, consent, consent, and then, of course, on the CASL side of the house, it's about unsubscribe.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:53:22 Steven And I know that sounds very, you know, in some way it's it's kind of like, well just delete the email. But from a marketer's perspective, if someone says they don't want tp hear from you anymore, then just respect that choice, because then you just frustrate them. But you know, people file a complaint, which is work. I admit that, right?

00:28:53:22 - 00:29:13:08 Steven They've got to call somebody. They've got to fill out a form, they've got to do something. So if they're going to take the time to do that, it means they're really frustrated. And I talk about 6000 complaints a week I get from Canadians. That probably means tenfold, 20 fold, 100 fold who are actually frustrated. Right? They think it's, you know, it's at least ten times that.

00:29:13:10 - 00:29:29:07 Steven Now, people who are complaining about a particular issue, particular thing, because most Canadians will not complain. They won't take the effort, you know, to go out there and say, you know what, I'm going to fill out this form because this is the 82nd time that I've actually unsubscribed. They won't stop it, you know, I tell them not to.

00:29:29:07 - 00:29:49:00 Steven They just don't respect my choice. And we all know at the end of the day, word of mouth is way better than any ad campaign. So respecting that choice. And it's the same on the Do Not Call side. It's one thing if you register for the Do Not Call list, obviously there are exceptions to that, but when that consumer says, can you place me on your internal Do Not Call list, which is sort of like an unsubscribe, right?

00:29:49:02 - 00:30:08:02 Steven Okay. I appreciate you're allowed to call me. I still don't want you to call me. So respect that, respect that choice. Right? Because that's what's frustrating for Canadians. But if you want my top three tips? Consent, consent, consent. Document, document document. And what I mean by that is, if someone asks to be put on your internal Do Not Call list,

00:30:08:02 - 00:30:37:20 Steven if at the end of the day you've actioned and unsubscribed within the ten days suggested. Whatever you do with the consumer or the Canadian that you're engaging in, make sure you have documented processes around CASL, around telemarketing, around the national Do Not Call list, have them in a binder, have them available, you know, on your SharePoint drive, so that everyone can see them, etc. But, you know, document it. Because when I come knocking saying, I'm getting all these complaints and I need to understand like, is this working?

00:30:37:22 - 00:30:56:01 Steven This is the first thing you're going to give me as a due diligence defence. You're going to say, wait a minute, I've got all the records. I know I'm allowed to call people when I'm allowed to call people. I respected the fact that when people tell me not to call them, I don't call them, and more importantly, I have a robust compliance program, that ensures that we check off all those boxes and we follow all those procedures.

00:30:56:01 - 00:31:14:21 Steven So the document piece is really important to me, because that's the first thing I'm going to ask you. Can you prove it? You know, I you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to say, this is what I'm seeing. What's your defence? So, you know, if you've got the policies and procedures in place and maybe you dust them off once a year to make sure they're still relevant, you know, maybe you call us and say, is there anything new that we should add?

00:31:14:23 - 00:31:32:22 Steven You know, that's all great, but make sure that it's available, right? And that feeds so well into whatever compliance program that you would ever need to do. And then the third thing, and I sort of touched on it is, be responsive to Canadians. If they say, don't call me, don't call them. If they say, I want to unsubscribe, unsubscribe, just respect that wish.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:39:00 Steven And I think that gets you a long way as far as keeping everyone happy in the ecosystem, including the regulator.

00:31:39:02 - 00:32:02:05 Alison Steven, that is absolutely great advice. So the world and business are going through truly tectonic shifts. And as we both look forward toward those complex future challenges, like the ethical use of AI, the more sophisticated digital scams that you've talked about, where do you see the most critical opportunities for our two organizations to continue working together?

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:25:12 Steven We're in an interesting space when it comes to AI, right? Whether it's, whether it's private sector, whether it's governments, whether it's like huge manufacturing places, how do we leverage the technology for good instead of evil, right? Like how do we make sure that we can get the most out of AI without crossing any boundaries? So in the Government of Canada, even here, you know, at the CRTC, we're trying to figure out how do we leverage AI to do some of the work for us, right?

00:32:25:12 - 00:32:43:02 Steven How can you help us in the slicing and dicing process? So, you know, how do we use that tool? So AI is going to be critical. And I think, I think where we need to get to is, one, I think we need to be transparent. I think we need to be transparent with Canadians from the regulator's perspective on how we're using AI and from the Government

00:32:43:02 - 00:33:03:15 Steven Canada's perspective, if I can talk on behalf of them. Let's not try to pretend we're something else. Let's not try to pretend we're better than anyone else, because we did this really cool thing. That we used AI, and maybe we got a head start on our competition, but we used AI to do that. And, you know, that really does take me to trusted brand, which I think is probably most important for your association.

00:33:03:17 - 00:33:24:03 Steven And you want Canadians to believe in your brand. You want Canadians to answer the phone if you're calling them, you want them to open your email, you want them to respond to your SMS text message, you want them to positively engage with your brand. I think that's the biggest challenge we have. Be that trusted brand so that when people see that pop in their inbox, they go, oh, that's from Company X.

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:40:05 Steven I really like them. But I think by being that trusted brand and and trying to respect their wishes on how they want to be engaged and, and, you know, respect the things on how they want to be engaged, I guess. But I think the other side of that is, is also being transparent with them on what you're doing and how you're doing it, right?

00:33:40:05 - 00:34:11:02 Steven And to go back to, I think collaborations like this, I think engagements like this are really important. You know, I have really amazing people who work for me and I am very blessed, whether that be technically, forensically or from policy driven or just engagement folks. If there's any way as the regulator that I can be helpful, whether that's standing in front of a roomful of people, or we can provide you some guidance on where to find some cool things, tips and tricks that we deem to be, you know, within the confines of CASL or the UTRs in the telemarketing regime or whatever,

00:34:11:08 - 00:34:25:21 Steven we are happy to do that. You just have to always be mindful that even using AI, you have to respect all the rules, like all the rules still apply. But for me, it's about being transparent with Canadians, and I think that would be the most important thing. And I think that's where you get that trust.

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:49:05 Alison And your point around trust in brands is so absolutely mission critical for every marketer, for every business. We did some CMA research a few months ago with Canadian consumers to understand more about that. And when Canadians are receiving irrelevant messages, when they're, when you're communicating to them in ways that they don't want, it is one of the quickest ways to lose trust.

00:34:49:05 - 00:35:14:05 Alison And building back that lost trust takes many, many years, and often it can't be done. So the wisdom that you're sharing with us is very much appreciated and certainly will be resonating with my listeners as well. So before I let you get back to your busy day, I'd love you to share what is the single most important piece of advice that you can offer to a senior marketing leader who wants to build a culture of compliance that also drives innovation.

00:35:14:07 - 00:35:18:00 Steven Well, so you're ending with an easy question. That's awesome, thanks, I appreciate that.

00:35:18:02 - 00:35:19:21 Alison We've been warming up.

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:40:23 Steven I think from an individual's perspective, I would suggest the number one thing they can do is pick their boss. And the reason I say that is, it's great, we all get interviewed for different positions. I know when I coach and mentor, I often tell people once you get to a certain level, like once you get to that executive level status, it's actually not about the content, right?

00:35:40:23 - 00:35:58:15 Steven It is actually about your competencies as a leader. It's what drives you as a leader and how you drive a team. You know, it's about your values and ethics. So as much as you might be interviewing, or anyone listening here might be interviewing for a position, I would suggest you have a due diligence to interview them.

00:35:58:17 - 00:36:23:17 Steven Because I think that connection with your boss is critical. You need to be in a position where you are aligned, whether it be like-minded or even just aligned from a values and ethics perspective, it is way easier to be amazing in your job if it aligns with your personal beliefs and in the organization aligns, you know, with your values and ethics, but also the person that you're working for on a day-to-day basis.

00:36:23:17 - 00:36:49:17 Steven And we all spend all kinds of time with our leaders. As senior leaders, you need to spend the time and spend the effort in creating that kind of healthy, supportive work environment for success. And it sounds cliche. But that, take mentoring and coaching really seriously. Empower your folks to take risk. I would like to say, if you asked any of my senior executive team, they would tell me that I'm, you know, an empowering leader.

00:36:49:17 - 00:37:08:09 Steven I ask them to be creative every day. I ask them to come up with finding innovative solutions. I give them the bandwidth to make those decisions, but I also give them the bandwidth to make those mistakes. And I'm on the side of, like, you need to actually celebrate those mistakes as much as you celebrate the wins, because it means we tried something, right?

00:37:08:14 - 00:37:13:01 Steven And not everything works right? Like, you know, as much as we have all these really great ideas and I have

00:37:13:10 - 00:37:32:00 Steven amazingly smart people who work around me, we go down a certain path and go, well that didn't work out as we thought it would, and I'm sure all of your listeners would feel the same way in certain circumstances. But I think it's, it's really about that supportive, empowering environment because I think you need to you know, you need to make it infectious.

00:37:32:00 - 00:37:51:18 Steven You need to be an exciting place to work. You need people to get up every day and say, I can't wait to go to work and try this and do this. And I'm the first to admit it. As you move up in an organization and as you become less, you know, engaged with the bigger, broader team and all the people who may work for you, I think it's really important

00:37:51:18 - 00:38:09:11 Steven That you kind of just reflect on that and spend some time, it doesn't have to be a lot, but spend some time like going down two or three or four levels and understand what people are talking to. And, you know, maybe I was going to say, I think my folks like it. Maybe if you ask them offline and told them otherwise, like I just pop in the team meetings,

00:38:09:11 - 00:38:26:16 Steven Because I know my folks are having a team meeting, and I'll just pop in and sit down, and then they all think I'm there to say something and I'm like, no, I'm just here to listen. Like I just want to understand what's going on, right? Like, you know, I don't have that opportunity every day. So I think, for me, it's about, it's about allowing employees, even at the most junior of levels, to feel like they're leaving their mark.

00:38:26:16 - 00:38:46:08 Steven But you need to foster that environment. So you need actually to work at that. You need to spend 15 minutes a day, you need to spend 30 minutes a week? I don't know what it is, but it's like engaging at all kinds of different points, not just the folks who sit around your executive table. My motto is, you know, as a fellow public servant, you know, my name will never be on a building.

00:38:46:08 - 00:39:04:22 Steven I always say, I want to be remembered in people's retirement speeches. And I will never hear any of them, probably. But I want them, you know, when they're ready to retire from their career, I want them to go, I had this really great boss once. So if I could encourage anyone from an individual perspective or building a team perspective is like, like be that leader.

00:39:05:00 - 00:39:25:20 Alison There is so much inspiration and richness in what you just shared. I think in any business today, but certainly as marketers, if we are not testing and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, you simply can't innovate. There is no way we will have all of the answers and get it right the first time when we're trying to innovate and do something we've never done before and I,

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:59:03 Alison Before joining the CMA, I spent four years in the startup space, which I believed that before I went in. But certainly coming out of that experience, you absolutely have to be willing to take measured risks and fail at times and learn from the failing. And then, who needs a statue when you could be creating the legacy that you're creating by helping accelerate people's careers and their growths, and to really be remembered in those retirement speeches. That is absolutely the ultimate compliment that any leader today in any business can have.

00:39:59:03 - 00:40:18:13 Alison So, Steven, thank you for ending on such an amazing note, thank you for an absolutely wonderful conversation. And thank you to you and your team for being such great partners with the CMA as we together manage through the quickly evolving business, consumer and regulatory environment.

00:40:18:15 - 00:40:39:10 Steven Awesome. Thank you for the opportunity. I'll do my website plug, and you know, it's www.crtc.gc.ca. If you have any questions, my face is on there somewhere. You can find me and they'll tell you how to contact me. But by all means, this is the best part of my role. And if we have another opportunity, whether that be in person or, or something else, by all means, don't hesitate to reach out.

00:40:39:16 - 00:40:40:18 Steven This has been great. Thank you.

00:40:40:22 - 00:40:46:03 Alison We would love to get you out in person for one of our events in 2026. Thanks so much, Steven. Have a good day.

00:40:46:03 - 00:40:52:15 Steven Thank you.

00:40:52:17 - 00:41:05:06 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.