On this week’s episode, my real-life friend and previous co-worker, Michelle Handy phD joins us to share her expertise in behavioral science as relates to personal style. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

Welcome

Welcome to Intuitive Style. I'm Maureen Welton. On this podcast, we explore the overlap between mindfulness and personal style. Today's guest, Michelle Handy, is a behavioral scientist, personal style enthusiast and yoga teacher. Today, we talk about the overlap between all of these areas, and so a little bit about Michelle's personal style and generally have a fun conversation. Hope you enjoy.

Maureen

Hi, Michelle. It's so nice to see you. How are you doing today?

Michelle

I'm doing great. So happy to be here.

Maureen

I am really excited to talk with you as well. I know we've had quite a few offline discussions around personal style and how that relates to behavioral science. And so I'm just really excited to share what we've talked about with our audience today. And I know that your expertise is so relevant to many aspects of our lives. So let's let's talk about what behavioral science can teach us about getting dressed. So just before we get started, would you please say your first and last name and your pronouns?

Michelle

Hi, everyone. Michelle Handy, pronouns She her hers.

Maureen

To kick us off, you're an experienced behavioral scientist. You're also a yoga teacher and personal style enthusiast. So we have so much that we can cover Would you share what behavioral science is?

Michelle

Yeah. So behavioral science is a field that studies human behavior to improve outcomes like well-being and productivity. And it combines knowledge from many different disciplines, including psychology, sociology, economics, even neuroscience. It's essentially the study of why people do what they do and applying it in the real world to make things better.

Maureen

I love that. And we also used to work together at a Fortune 500 company. And I remember one thing that you shared with me when we were first starting to work together was that behavior is everywhere. I'm paraphrasing, but basically you're like, everything is a behavior. And that really helped click into my mind what you do and why it's perhaps different from other types of social sciences. So that being said, I have a really specific question for you. I'm very online in the personal style space. And, many people aspire to build a wardrobe that aligns with their values, whether that's buying second hand, choosing natural fibers or simplifying or, you know, any host of things. But they may struggle to follow through using a behavioral science lens. What factors do you think can create this gap between, you know, what we're hoping for and what ends up happening with our personal style?

Michelle

Yeah. So, Maureen, you just described something called the intention action gap. This is just a phenomenon that describes that there's often a gap between what people say they're going to do and what they really want to do. What they know is really important for them and what they actually do. It's why New Year's resolutions often fall through. And, healthy eating, working out, going to sleep on time, calling your parents, like whatever we all, like many of us, know that these things are important for us and intend to do it. But when it comes to actually. Executing on these goals. Things in life get in the way. And so in the personal style context, having some sort of a style goal to be more sustainable, for example, or to reduce one's consumption. Like somebody might really want to do this, but then. Struggled to follow through on their goal. And imagine the gap with like an abyss in the middle and. These things called, quote unquote, behavioral barriers getting in the way. There are some things that everyone should know about humans. Like some basic principles. I'll start with three.

So the first principle is that people are cognitive misers. This means that our brains want to use the least amount of energy, and a lot of our lives are run on autopilot because it just makes it more efficient to operate this way and not have to make so many decisions on a day to day. But because we're constantly trying to save mental energy, this can make it hard to be mindful of a habit that we have and to break bad habits. Because that takes mental energy to like. Decide to do something new all the time. So the cognitive miser principle can help to explain why people get caught in a pattern of behavior that they might not like.

Some other principles are that humans are highly emotional beings. We're strongly influenced by our emotions, even though we like to think that we make every decision totally rationally. So imagine if somebody is going to the grocery store and they have like a carefully thought out list, but they're hungry while they're shopping or stressed. Suddenly the chips look a lot more appealing. And same with shopping. It's like or with personal style. We'd like to think that we make all of our decisions rationally, but oftentimes we purchase something because of an emotional reason. Like stress.

And another really interesting principle is that humans are very self-focused while also being deeply social. So what I mean by this is that we have this egocentric bias. That causes us to see ourselves as the main character in our life story. And we're following the hero's journey. So we over represent how things from our own perspective when like we might think that something was a really big deal, but it might not be in the broader context of things. But simultaneously, like so many of our decisions, are guided by our drive to fit in and belong to a group. And so social influences can have the desire to belong and to be perceived well by others, can have a huge influence on personal shopping habits and personal style decisions that lead us to act against our best intentions.

Maureen

Mm. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing. Such a great crash course in behavioral science right off the bat, with the idea of cognitive misers - how we're really emotional make a lot of emotional decisions that could also apply to to getting dressed and shopping. And then also, that context of how, you know, being very social and we want to, you know, fit in with other people. I mean, those are all really important things to know. Just to give ourselves, you know, perhaps grace or forgiveness if we do act out of our own. I don't want to say best interest because that's not really it. But when we aren't acting in line with something that we might have set out to do.

Michelle

Yeah. And the other thing I'll say is that these are like it's really interesting because these principles can explain human behavior in a variety of different contexts from like how we spend our money to how we make our health decisions to how I make decisions about the environment and also personal style and shopping decisions, which is why psychology is such a great field. So that's one thing I want to say.

And the other thing I want to say is that oftentimes people are not aware of like the things, the barriers that get in the way of their intentions and actions. So like we have all these influences on our behavior, but like most people are aware of what's influencing their behavior, but they will. Like if you ask them directly, they'll come up with an explanation and say, oh, yeah, that's, that's why I did this. But that's because their brains just our brains just want to make up an explanation. But oftentimes the influences guiding us to do what we do in everyday life are below our conscious awareness.

Would you be able to give an example? So, like, let's say that someone is like, I bought this thing. You know, what an example be of of rationalizing, right? You know, you're giving a reason for why, you know, what a good example would be like, oh, it was on sale. Like, is that kind of an example of, of of not really understanding the the influence?

Michelle

Yeah. Yeah. Like you might ask somebody, why did you buy why did you buy that sweater? And they'll say, because I really care about having high quality items in my wardrobe. But maybe the deeper reason is like I have this desire to prove that I am enough and like I've never had expensive things in my life and etc., etc.

Maureen

Yes, yes. That's so helpful. I mean, and I think everything that I'm trying to do here with intuitive style and this idea of dressing intuitively is just, you know because we're not all behavioral scientists and we don't always we're not always going to be aware of like why we're really doing something. You know, I think it's really about. Being able to give ourselves forgiveness and acceptance when we make decisions that are not, you know, in line with what we say that we want, because we can predict that we will continue to make decisions that are not in line with our with what we set out to do. And, you know, the best thing I think that we can do is just say, like, yeah, sometimes that's going to happen.

Or even like, you know, from my for my life I had this really great curated style and bought a lot of really high quality things, a lot of things secondhand, you know, really curated. And then, you know, my body changed and I think it was due to just getting older. And, you know, a lot of those things that I had purposefully curated over time, no longer fit comfortably. And so I ended up needing to to rebuy a lot of things that I had purchased before, which meant, you know, I'm buying more, you know, new rather than secondhand because there's a level of urgency. But I also still want it to be stylish. And so when I kind of look back on those choices that I made to to basically survive through that really big life transition, you know, sure. I could say. Oh, I, I'm upset with myself because I bought all the stuff that, you know, on the surface you could say I didn't need because I'd already bought things in that category. But when I look at it more objectively now, I can say, Oh, I didn't need those things because the things that I had, weren't serving that purpose that they were meant to do anymore.

So I don't have a question there. I just wanted to kind of share like a little bit more explicit example there of, you know, what I think intuitive style means and Being able to predict that we're going to to make choices that are hard. We can still accept those for what they are.

Michelle

Yeah. I think that talks like I mean, I think the best thing you can do really with personal choices, with style or like I've said, do a lot of health behaviors. Like we always talk about the progress over perfection mindset and like you just have to. Like to have a fresh start and like start from where you are in the present and like let go of things and just try to like live aligned to your best intentions in the moment. Because if you are. Punishing yourself for making a mistake Like the research shows that tends to make people less successful with where they want to be in the long term.

Maureen

Yeah. So talking a little bit more about, the idea of intuitive style and what it means to like trust your own instincts when you're choosing clothing to purchase or, you know, choosing what to wear. I know that, finding connection to our inner voice can be really challenging, especially, you know, recognizing that the that inner knowing is actually separate from our thinking brain. I know I just kind of threw out a lot of jargon there, but. Can you talk through a little bit? Some behavioral strategies that people could employ to to really listen to that inner knowing separate from kind of those that bombardment of thoughts that we might have.

Michelle

Yeah, I have a few ideas. I think like there are constant demands for attention and just noise in our faces all the time and stressors. And so it's really easy and reasonable to be disconnected from our inner knowing these days. So not a behavioral strategy, but one strategy to just connect to your inner knowing and slow things down and become more present in general is yoga and meditation that can help you to develop more awareness of your emotions and notably to be able to. Witness and identify them as they come up and separate yourself from them so that you can observe them as emotions but not be like you are not the same as your emotions. Meditation and yoga helps. It's the practice of observing your emotions and witnessing them and letting them go. And as a result, it helps you to not be controlled by them or to like, helps you come to the realization that like you, your your soul, like you as a being are not. Necessarily what you are thinking and feeling at the moment. So that's that's one thing.

But I would say it's a behavioral science strategy to strengthen self trust when it comes to style decisions is to gather some data on yourself. This is also a behavioral science research method. Think back to times when you felt your most confident. And research shows that data. If you think back to past time, it's it's better to think back to times in the past when you felt like you. Think of concrete outfits where you felt really great and confident because it's more accurate than trying to like. Imagine how you're going to feel in the future with a new outfit.

So think back to like when you felt most confident and like loved how you were feeling and the outfits that you were wearing. And think about what's the common pattern there. So for example, like, all the outfits that when I think back in my life like recently, are slim, slim fitting, black or navy, natural, high quality material, like 100% cotton and maybe a little more luxurious. so that gives me some data that, oh, I think that there is little risk that if I buy something now that's like a high quality fitted navy sweater, that I'm not going to feel great in it because that's the type of outfit that has always, you know, I've always felt like my best self and that type of outfit.

Maureen

Yeah. I love that. Great example, too. what are the kind of feelings in your body that could indicate that those pieces of clothing, are a good fit for you? Do you feel relaxed or do you feel joyful or do you feel like a certain type of sensation?

Michelle

Oh. That is a great question. I guess it's more like a gut feeling. Probably confident. Probably confident and comfortable and confident. Comfortable in the yoga. Sometimes at the end of class, we bring our attention to our heart space and there's some sort of a warmth and a glow. But that's more like the the end of class glow where I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy.

But I feel like I've probably had that feeling like wearing a great outfit. But I would say it has to be. For me, it's a mix of feeling confident, like. Something I'd want to wear when having friends over for dinner. But also comfortable or not like I'm having trouble zipping something up or I can't sit comfortably. But yeah, the important part is. Confident. Confident has to be there. Not just comfortable. Too comfortable. I feel sloppy. Yeah.

Maureen

No, I totally understand that. And and thank you for for answering. And, you know, I asked this question because it's a difficult one. Right? I think so much of the kind of the Western culture that I think we were both raised in really tries to disconnect us from the way that we are feeling in our body. And without getting, you know, too political, I think it's kind of revolutionary, too, to actually sit with our feelings and become aware. And I and I ask, you know, what is that? What does it feel like to be confident in your body, to be comfortable not necessarily expecting that we have an answer right now, but really to kind of plant that seed for for you or for anyone listening that, you know, this is a practice and it's not something that is necessarily going to come naturally, but it's something that we can cultivate over time and and really just pausing and reflecting on what we wore and how we felt in it and trying to kind of make that connection between kind of our, our, our brains and what we're feeling in our body. So, so thank you for for bearing with me. It's a kind of a challenging question, um, digging a little bit more on that.

You know, you've talked about kind of. You know, wanting to feel confident and comfortable. And there are some certain silhouettes and colors that you like. Just can we talk a little bit more about how you decide what to buy and wear or what not to buy or wear?

Michelle

Yeah. I think that, like, my process has definitely changed. Just work like. Being more responsible with finance, like with finances and stuff like an undergrad in college I was very fortunate and like I just, you know, I lifeguarded and that was just like my find money and I would just make like impulse purchases and just like go out and not be that intentional about it. And I ended up donating a majority of that stuff. I don't think I've kept anything from college, but now, now I can't make a purchase. I am really nerdy and low risk, I would have to say, and I pretty much just gather past data on myself like, Oh, I'm never going to be unhappy with like a flattering navy blue tub or like I'm never yeah, I'm a pretty practical person, but I like, I like my pieces to be practical, but also make me feel attractive. So I'll buy like, luxury yoga, like, like, like lulu or lemon or Alo, but I'm really practical in the way that I dress and I like to buy pieces that I can feel attractive in but can also go on lunchtime power walks because I work from home. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Pretty much just low risk, low risk decisions these days.

Maureen

Yeah. And I'm curious to you know, you talked about maybe having some more like experimental purchases when you are an undergrad. I mean, going back to your your concept of gathering data on yourself, I mean, perhaps some of those experiences provided you data what you don't want to buy anymore. So maybe that's just part of the journey.

Michelle

Yeah. I like this stuff. Also, if it, if it's more helpful, like to be more specific, like the data. Like. Thinking not only the things I am most confident in, but the things that I'd actually reach for the most often versus what you get used.

Maureen

Yeah, totally. Totally. And also, you know, as your lifestyle shifts, maybe that changes to like maybe if you're an undergrad, you're going out. I'm like, yeah,

Michelle

I did do a different activities then. No, no bars. Yeah, bars. Not anymore. Totally. Totally.

Maureen

So we're recording this at the start of 2025. Do you have any style or personal goals that you're excited to work towards this year?

Michelle

Oh. Mhm. I think. Oh I think my style goals Mori. You recently told me about color analysis. Mm hmm. And I want to continue to carry my wardrobe, to match my color type and to edit out pieces where now I can't unsee. And also I feel that they no longer serve me.

Maureen

Can you tell me more about, you know, your experience with color analysis and how it relates to like maybe this idea of, of data?

Michelle

Yeah, prior to color analysis. You know I've been a silent this and sometimes I would get into a pattern of buying pieces and like wanting to feel a certain way in my wardrobe and lifestyle, having constraints like it needs to be practical, but that just not getting the feeling that I'm looking for and still feeling too frumpy. And I felt like I just kept making like, mistakes. Not that there's a right or wrong or rule book, but I just wasn't achieving the type of specific feeling I was going for to feel like sporty, but also like well dressed. And I think when I learned about color analysis that helped to explain some of the why, because I wasn't like a lot of my wardrobe was in colors that weren't optimized for my skin complexion and like my hair. And I noticed I can see the difference and explain like why why it works when I do purchase things that are aligned to color analysis and when I find like the optimal path, like I, I personally like to just to stick to that. And so yeah, it's really helped me to understand the why behind like why I felt like I. Was not quite happy with some of my other purchases or why they weren't feeling quite right for me.

Maureen

So kind of what I'm hearing and, and I'm also speaking from my own personal experience. So forgive me if I'm I'm overstating this, but just kind of hearing like you did have a sense inherently of like what did and didn't work, but maybe there were again, like those external factors that told you to buy something else instead, you know, like, I mean, I can speak from my perspective, you know, when I lived in the Pacific Northwest, all that everyone is wearing, like the colors that kind of really drained my my skin. So like lots of olive green and orange and burgundy. And so I would I would wear those colors to kind of fit in with the people around me, which I totally respect. Like that's sometimes helpful. And then, you know, when I did color analysis, I realized like, oh yeah, I never really like these colors on me. I just wanted to fit in. And it can be kind of helpful to have that data that's like, Oh yeah, I was right. There was something happening here. And it just helps like build confidence in us when we, when we take like a, you know, when we happen to be super analytical people like we are like you and I are, it can help to see, like, have a rationale for why we might be feeling a type of way. Yeah. And I'm curious your take on this. Like I think once we have that kind of. That data from from doing a color analysis and understanding like what colors are most harmonious. Like it kind of can help build that self trust to a point where you don't need to rely on your color analysis results at some point but you can just use it as like a reference point to how you got to now. But it doesn't necessarily need to like guide all your choices, but it can just be like, Oh yeah, I already knew that. It's nice to have that opinion or that, that, you know, that reference. And now I can use my own discretion moving forward. I'm curious if you have that kind of take on it or do you view it as more like, you know, I'm going to follow this to the tee?

Michelle

Uh, no, probably the the first one. I think also that like before color analysis, I didn't even have any idea what were my best colors and I wasn't like socially influenced. It just kind of felt or maybe I like, I would just like see things on Instagram and like what was trendy and stuff. But I felt like I was like. She's in the dark order. But it was my style, like just shooting darts on the board without a strategy. I feel like now feels like I can have a strategy and like a rationale to back up some of my, like an explanation of why it works essentially to be more strategic with my style choices or to if I want to go off the strategy. And that's also a mindful choice. Like, if yeah, like purposely I want to get yellow gold. You know, that's kind of harmonious, but like, yeah, I'd be surprised when that happens.

Maureen

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And, and, you know, whenever I talk about color analysis, I always try to frame that reminder that color analysis results strive to be harmonious. Right. And that is only one kind of metric by which you can evaluate what colors you want to wear. And, harmony may not be always what we're seeking in an outfit or in our self-expression. And so, like, I love color analysis as a data point that we can use to kind of guide our choices, but also where we want to Go away from harmony to right and just doing that mindfully, should we desire to. So this has been really fun. And talking about behavioral science and how it relates to getting dressed in our personal style.

I know that our listeners can find you at your fantastic podcast. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing with Deep Thoughts.

Michelle

Yeah! Listeners, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. And I'm also starting a podcast called Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy at the intersection of behavioral science, tech, design, thinking and personal growth. And the theme is not as honed-in as Maureen’s, but I like to talk to cool people about topics related to personal growth, like overcoming imposter syndrome or breaking free from perfectionism, social emotional skills that are going to help us. Thrive in 2025, etc. So yeah, you can subscribe to my podcast and we'll have a link for you.

Maureen

Absolutely. And basically, to me, your podcast is behavioral science is everywhere.

Michelle

Yes! And everywhere. This is to help explain everything.

Maureen

Yeah, I think it's not that it's not honed. I think it's just that it applies to so many different areas of our life that you'd be doing a disservice to only focus on one area. So I highly recommend Deep Thoughts with Michelle Handy.

Well, thank you, Michelle. This is so much fun and I'll see you later.

Michelle

Thanks, Maureen.

Closing

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