You’re reading the second-to-last episode of Season One of Intuitive Style. While we’re on break for summer, you can catch up with all of the incredible previous guest episodes here. Next week, we be our season finale with mindful living extraordinaire Christine Platt. Stay tuned!

I’m delighted to share this week’s episode with much-awaited guest, Jennifer Cook of mom friend! We discuss everything from how Jennifer’s professional experience in fashion impacts her personal style to what she most enjoys writing for Substack! Enjoy.

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Maureen: You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Jennifer Cook from mom friend. Jennifer is a Brooklynite with a job in fashion. Chic. You know her from her weekly recaps covering everything from what's happening in politics to what the moms are wearing at Space Club. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice to meet you.

Maureen: Likewise, I've been reading mom friend for a little while. I'm not even a mom and what you're writing is still really interesting from the fashion insider perspective—just like life in Brooklyn. I like catching up with what Mom Friend's up to.

I took a look at your about page and it really struck me. You said, “when something becomes your job and pays your rent, it's easy to become numb to it. This page has helped relight my curiosity and interest around the industry as a whole, and I love being able to write about it and be in it at the same time.” I don't work in fashion even a little bit, so I would just love to hear a little bit more about your day job in fashion and how writing in your free time feels different.

Jennifer: Yeah, I have been working in the fashion industry on the business side for about thirteen years now. I started on the retail side when I was like fifteen, so I've always been around retail and fashion. It's just kind of ingrained in my bones and who I am. But that said, when you work in something, it becomes a little monotonous. Or when it becomes your paycheck and your livelihood, it can kind of lose some of the luster.

Part of the reason I got into fashion was because I loved it. I loved the clothes. I loved retail. I loved the energy it brought. I loved the people, the artistry, the creativeness of it. Being on the business side for the last decade plus, it lost a little bit of its luster. So in writing the Substack and developing mom friend, it's been so fun to kind of find that playfulness again where it's not so dependent on—my livelihood is not dependent on it. I can play with it, I can have fun, I can explore, I can learn, I can engage with it in a way that's a little bit different from my nine to five.

In the last year or so, I started a new job. I'm a buyer now at a store in Soho in New York City, and I like to laugh about it and say that I just shop with someone else's money for a living, which is not super far off from the truth. But it still has that expectation that you're doing it for someone else—for a store with a different personality, a different customer, a different viewpoint. So on the Substack, it's fun for me to just do things for me. It's what I like. It's what I'm finding. It's what I'm resonating with as opposed to what I'm getting paid to find for someone else. That part has been a lot of fun.

Maureen: That's a really clear and powerful distinction. When you're shopping for the retailer, it's not necessarily about your taste. It's also about what is going to sell, right? Just based off of some things that I've read from you. Is that kind of a fair shake?

Jennifer: Absolutely. There's so much data these days behind my job. So it is kind of a gut feeling you have. It's a taste level. It's knowing your customer. But it's also looking at metrics like selling and developing merchandising plans based on how many iterations of a short sleeve you might need. It's looking at profit margins. These days, where it's being made and where it's shipping from is all the more important. So there's so many factors that come into how I'm buying for the store versus how I look at fashion and style just for myself.

I've been lucky in this role. I've been able to bring a lot of my own personal taste and style and preferences into it. So I feel very fortunate that that's been afforded to me. But at the same time, there's so many other things that go into that job that are based on data and numbers and metrics and getting to know a different customer than I am.

Our store is in Soho, New York. I live in Brooklyn. For those not in New York, those two things are worlds away from one another. The style that you see in Brooklyn and the style of people roaming around Soho—it's vastly different, even being just a few miles apart. So it's really interesting to have to kind of capture that information, process it, and then feed it back in a different way through the store and through my own style.

Maureen: Totally cool if this is too much information from your company perspective, but what is your customer base like then for the brand?

Jennifer: We started many years ago as a menswear brand. So our core customer is a guy. I kind of call him the LinkedIn bro of New York. You know the type—he's a corporate bro, he likes nice things, he's an aspirational customer. He's not totally buying luxury, but he's also not shopping at Zara. He wants things that feel good, that look good, that are basic and easy to wear and don't take a lot of styling. That's always been our core customer.

In the last year, we've transitioned into becoming more of a multi-brand concept store. So we now have women's apparel, home goods, accessories, footwear. It's been a lesson in trying to figure out who that new customer is and how we get new people in the door.

Being where we are in Soho, it is also very tourist-driven. It's striking that right balance between basics, vacation clothes, and fun grab-and-go items for people to remember their trip by. It really spans a wide range of customers. But it's also ever-changing. Especially in New York City—it's such a transient city. People are coming, they're going, they're changing jobs, they're having families, they're moving to Brooklyn. There's always change in who our people are. It's been fun over the last year to try and identify that and not just give them what they want, but also try and tell them what we think they should want. It's striking that balance between things we know they'll love and things we think they should be following. It's a hard balance to strike, but it's also really fun.

Maureen: And I know that this line of questioning could seem tangential to your personal style. But for me, it helps me really understand where you're coming from and how you could get to that place where fashion is a little bit less fun. Everything you're describing sounds very cool and also very corporate. There's a connection element to knowing what your customer likes, but also very business-oriented. Going back to what originally drew you to fashion being the actual clothes and the experience of clothing—those feel worlds apart. What do you think your day job in fashion is? What is the impact of that on how you personally dress, if anything?

Jennifer: It's a huge impact. Less so in my current job, but previously—before becoming a buyer—I was working on the wholesale side of the business where I was representing individual brands. Every time I would represent a brand, I would kind of have to dress in that style. I would dress in their clothes pretty much head to toe. Part of that was due to the fact that I usually had a nice allowance or got a steep discount, so it made it easier to dress like that. One of the perks of the job for sure.

But part of that was also—you feel like a representative of that brand. I always felt like I needed to dress the part in order to sell it better and do my job better. Now that I'm on the buying side, I have a wider breadth of options to choose from, which is great. But on the other hand, there's so much out there that I almost feel too inundated with products sometimes. I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life?

I'm looking at all these amazing products from hundreds of brands and it can be decision fatigue and information overload. It's been a lesson in trying to pare back my own style and see what resonates with me. What do I actually feel good in? What do I want to wear that fits my life?

Part of my Substack is talking about fashion and how it relates to the life I actually live. I'm a newish mom. I have a toddler. I live in Brooklyn. I'm on my feet all the time. I'm always running around. I'm also a yoga teacher. I'm writing. All of these things play into the way I want to dress. And that's not really what I'm selling in my store necessarily. I need my clothes to work for me. I need them to be washable and easy to wear. I need sneakers. I need really basic things. I live in Brooklyn. I have a small closet. I don't have space. How can I get the most out of my clothes?

Sometimes I feel lucky to be able to buy things for the store that I can't buy for myself because they don't fit my lifestyle. It's still a nice way to work with younger brands and designers, get them out there, without having to take on—not that it's a burden—but that burden myself of owning their product. It all plays together for sure.

On the other hand, I'm out in the market all the time and sometimes I see amazing pieces that I’m like, I don’t care if I’ll ever get use out of this. I have to have it. I have to support this person. I need to have this brand in my closet. You just fall in love with things.

That also said, if anyone’s worked in retail, you probably have experienced wanting something when it first hits the floor and three weeks later, absolutely not wanting to look at it ever again. So there are pieces I fall in love with that after three weeks I’m like, you know what—never mind. I actually don’t need this.

So it all plays together. It’s been a lot more fun in this new role having exposure to multiple brands and not feeling so set on dressing as one brand or one style. That’s been a lot of fun to play with. But it’s also lined up with having a kid, which just totally flipped my wardrobe on its head.

Maureen: Yeah. Well, we can talk a little bit more about that. And I also want to see what you think of this idea. So personally, I always have resonated more with what the designers are wearing than the actual clothes that go down the runway. And just based on, you know, like the chic black crew neck that you're wearing today and just other things that you share. And even just the lifestyle that you're describing that is more... like, our clothes need to be more utilitarian than always expressive and I feel like, I'm just curious, do you resonate with the designer style? Is that something, do you ever think about that?

Jennifer: Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple. I think there is something to be said about uniform dressing or capsule dressing or however you want to call it. That keeps having these small moments in the conversation and there is something to be said about that. It makes the getting dressed part of your life a little bit simpler so that you can focus on the work of creativity. And I think that is why designers tend to have a little bit, in my opinion, more of an interesting style—something that I resonate with a little bit more. Not that I don't love looking at the runway clothes.

Always, always resonate with the designer style more than the clothes that go down the runway. These designers work hard. They're crazy busy. The women are, tend to be the ones that I follow most closely and most of them are moms. They have a lot of things going on. It's like me where you need to pare down your style and really keep it simple.

Maureen: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer: I think they're beautiful and they can be super creative and amazing, and the construction on some of them is just incredible. But at the end of the day, no one's wearing that, right? It's a marketing tool. These runway shows are marketing tools. And working on the wholesale side of the business, I know that most of what goes down the runway doesn't make it into stores. There's a whole other collection that these designers design that are made for retailers, that are made for people to actually buy. And that's not what you see on the runways. And so there's this whole other kind of underbelly of the industry that I feel closer with. And that includes dressing like the designers. They also just—they're amazing. They know what they're doing. They know how to dress their body. They know about proportions. It's so fun to watch them come out at the end because I'm like, okay, that's what I want to wear.

Maureen: Yeah, same, same. Sometimes I feel like getting dressed super expressively can be a distraction from life. And so I feel like, yeah, if you imagined, like, Pier Paolo wearing super... what if he wore gowns or something in his day-to-day life? Would we take him as seriously? Because if you think about all the hours of glam or whatever he'd need to do to get to that place, wouldn't that take away from the time that he would need to be creative or to actually work on the designs? You know what I mean?

Jennifer: Yeah, that and we live in an attention economy. And so when your attention becomes on yourself, when you start to make yourself the brand, when you start to dress in a certain type of way or put yourself out there in a certain type of way, then you become what people pay attention to. And I think designers know—some of them at least—that the attention needs to be on the clothes. It needs to be on the product, not themselves. Granted, it's hard to have a successful brand these days without a face behind it. So it's striking the right balance between those two things.

But, you know, being in New York City too, it's average people. I take the subway multiple times a day and you can tell the people who are on the subway that are going somewhere where their job is their clothes or their job is to show off or they're trying to get attention or whatever it may be versus the people that are there on their way to the office. They have stuff to do. There is this dichotomy between people just walking around the city streets—the ones that want to be seen and that show off, and the ones that are there to work. And there's nothing wrong with either of those things.

Maureen: Total, yeah.

Jennifer: It's just what you think about when you get on in the morning. And I am not one of those people where I want to be seen. I don't. I don't want any attention. I want to just keep moving on with my day. And so I definitely dress for that. I want to blend in. But I also really appreciate the people that don't. I think it's so fun. I mean, the city streets are just a constant source of inspiration. So it's fun to walk around and observe that. But I do think we live in a society that feeds off of attention these days, and so it's just what kind of attention you want to bring to yourself. And our clothes speak volumes.

Maureen: Thanks for going there with me. And of course, I would never try to get you to say anything bad about dressing more expressively, right? I think everyone has—there’s a space for every kind of dressing.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Maureen: And the only reason I was asking is just I felt like that's something that resonated with me about your style, is that I also kind of am personally more comfortable being a little bit more reserved with my style.

Jennifer: Thank you.

Maureen: And I think when you focus a lot of your energy in the fashion space on what’s going down the runway and things like that—certainly I can just say for myself—I felt a lot of pressure to be that flamingo, to be the peacock and do the most, and that I wasn't stylish if I wasn't doing the most. And so that's why paying attention to what the designers are wearing and even just, you know, what you're putting out there helps me be like, “Oh, I can be a fashionable person or stylish person and also wear things that are more subdued.” So that's really, I think it's nice to make space for all the different types of dressing.

Jennifer: Absolutely. And I used to be that person too. I mean, when I was younger, dressed to the nines, I was always in heels and tight dresses. And I think as my life has progressed and my day-to-day has changed and my situation has evolved, those things have changed as well. And so I think everything has a season and a place and time. Ultimately, style just comes down to feeling good in what you're wearing. And if that is a basic black sweater and jeans—great. If that's a mini skirt and bra and high heels—great. If you're happy, I'm happy. That’s what matters.

Maureen: I completely agree. I have one more mom friend question before we get into your personal style.

Jennifer: Totally.

Maureen: I really appreciate that your posts are labeled with the number at the start because it helps me remember when I'm reading that you have a large archive of posts. You were writing for a little while before I found you, and so I can go back and read your past work. With that said, are there any memorable favorites or underrated posts that you've written and are proud of? I'd love to know about them.

Jennifer: You know, it's not that there is a specific post necessarily. I think a couple of things. First, my writing has evolved. I've been doing this for about a year now, and what it started as to what it is now is totally different. If you go all the way back to the beginning, it's just a different beast. It was more me trying to find my way as a new mom, so a lot of it was more personal essay-centric or parenting products or conversations around that. And as I've developed it and gotten used to writing, and as I've kind of grown with it, it's morphed into a lot of different things—more focused on just me and my personal style as well as politics. There's still some parenting and motherhood content, but it's a little more well-rounded.

There are some great pieces that I wrote that were more personal essays a year ago when I was just starting out and I had like two followers, and I felt more comfortable just kind of putting it all out there on the internet. But on the other hand, part of the reason it's changed is because I realized what was gaining more traction and what people wanted to read. And as much as my goal is not to just pander to my audience, I do also want to know what they're interested in. I feel like I have a very specific viewpoint—working in fashion, being in New York City, being a mom—I think those are things that people are curious about. As people started to express more about what they wanted to hear and read, I started catering to that a bit.

[Ed note: issue #60, a week in Jennifer Cook’s life in Brooklyn, is the first one of hers I read, and I was immediately hooked.]

So it's developed along with my audience. I don't necessarily think there's anything super underrated that I want people to go back and revisit. It's more just giving ourselves permission to evolve as we move, as we wish. Some of that is audience-directed. I also found that I didn’t want to write about fashion—I really didn’t—because I worked in it. But as I started doing it, I realized I actually enjoyed writing about it. This is what I do. This is what I love. I've been doing this for a really long time. So of course I like it. I realized I shouldn't hold myself back because I originally started with the plan not to talk about it.

I also realized that I have no idea what I’m doing when it comes to being a mom. I got a few posts out about parenting and motherhood and then I was like, okay, that’s it—that’s the end of my knowledge. I can’t keep going with this. I have to expand it, because otherwise it's like the blind leading the blind. I have no idea what I’m doing. And I think that’s part of the fun—it’s an exploration of how I can be a mom in this world, in community with other people, while also acknowledging that there are so many other aspects to us as individuals. "Mom" is part of it, and as I continue to write, I realized that all of these other parts of me—I wanted to explore and share those too.

I think it's interesting to see what people gravitate towards. My Substack has become very shopping-centric, and that’s what people really like to read. It definitely gets the most engagement. What I like to write and what I’m most proud of tend to be the least engaged-with posts—the more personal things, the more political things. That’s why I started doing the weekly recaps on Thursdays, because it allowed me to explore the things that I’m more excited about. Not that I’m not excited about shopping and such, but I feel like I am very multifaceted and I like to put all of that out there in one place. And those are so fun for me to write, even though they’re not nearly as engaged with.

Maureen: As another creator, I really appreciate you sharing all that detail about what people are reading, because I've also experienced the same thing. The more specific I am about clothing, the more people want to engage with it. And when I try to do things that are a little more—what's the word—philosophical or esoteric or thoughtful, then I'm writing for the writers.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Maureen: And that's totally fine, but I think sometimes there can be this misnomer, like if you write what's authentic and organic to you, then that’s going to be the most popular stuff. And it's like—well, sometimes not. And then sometimes people just want a roundup of all the cute dresses that you’re buying for summer. And that’s totally fine.

Jennifer: And that’s kind of the content I like to consume too, because the world is heavy right now. Reading personal essay after personal essay can also be heavy. Sometimes we need a break and just want to look at pretty things. There’s nothing wrong with that. For me, I want that, and I also want to be thoughtful and put things out there. And if people read it—great. If they don’t—fine. It’s whatever.

Maureen: Everything that you described is a lovely analogy for the idea of intuitive style, which is basically: we're trying stuff out, we're seeing what feels good to wear, what feels good to write, what people are interested in reading. It’s all kind of a micro-experiment, one post at a time. Let’s talk a little bit about your personal style. How do you decide what to buy and wear, especially given that, as you said, you are so inundated with great options? How do you pick?

Jennifer: It’s hard. There’s so much good stuff out there—it’s so hard. For me, the biggest things are that my body has changed a lot in the last couple of years—being pregnant, giving birth, and then everything after that. So that’s been a huge development in my personal style lately. It’s a major part of it.

I am a notorious outfit repeater. I tend to wear a variation of the same thing every day, mostly for ease. I am very busy. I’m very tired. And to be able to just throw on a combination of the same thing makes my life a thousand times easier. So even though everyone says don’t buy duplicates of the same thing in different colors—I definitely do. If I find something that fits, that I love, that I wear a lot, and that’s in my budget—I'm buying it.

Budget is a major factor for me. Fashion pays notoriously low. I get access to a lot of great discounts, which is amazing, but I am very conscientious about what I spend on clothes. I have a lot of expenses in my life. New York is an expensive city. Unfortunately for me, clothes kind of fall off when it comes to spending. I also have enough. So when I’m trying to figure out what to buy, it’s mostly about filling in holes in my wardrobe.

Lately, that’s been pants and jeans, because my body has changed and a lot of things I had pre-baby don’t fit anymore. So my priority has been making sure I have bottoms that fit and feel good. Right now I’m in the market for the perfect gray sweater, and I’m not going to stop until I find one that’s in my budget, fits really well, and is the perfect color. I’m comfortable waiting until I find that one that really works.

There are so many factors at play in deciding what to buy. I also have a few go-to brands that I’m consistent with—I know they fit well and I can buy them easily. I stock up on things like white tees and similar staples. But every day at work, I get line sheets from apparel brands and I’m like, “Damn, I want all of this. How do I choose?”

More recently, with everything going on in the world, I’ve tried to make a point of buying from women-owned brands and those that focus more on slow production and ethical practices. I’m trying to be more conscientious about that. Don’t get me wrong—my daughter pretty much exclusively wears H&M and this sweater is from Gap. So I’ve definitely got mass market in the mix. But when I’m thinking about a bigger purchase or spending more money, I want it to be more meaningful.

As I’ve gotten older and had a little more room to play in terms of budget, that’s been huge. I’m also a big Poshmarker. I love secondhand shopping on Poshmark. If I find something I love but don’t want to pay full price or am unsure about the fit or how often I’ll wear it, that’s a great resource too.

Maureen: Yeah, I feel like Poshmark is great, especially if you use it to buy something you already know you like and just want another one of. Do you ever use it that way?

Jennifer: All the time. Yeah, that's great.

Maureen: It's pretty no regrets if you're like, “I already have it and want to re-purchase secondhand.” Cool. It sounds like a heightened version of what a lot of us are feeling, which is: How do you pick? How do you pick? How do you pick? And then there are so many people doing the valiant work of trying to de-influence, and sometimes it turns into a very loud voice saying we don't need things—when maybe we actually do have gaps in our wardrobe. I find that can be kind of distracting for me personally. I appreciate that your writing doesn’t skew that way. I think you leave room for all the different ways someone might shop, and I just appreciate that.

Jennifer: Oh, good. I'm so glad. I mean, listen, we all need less stuff. I think we generally consume too much. But at the end of the day, we want to feel good, we want to look good, we want to be comfortable, and that sometimes requires shopping and buying. Whatever your budget or price range may be, there's something for you. I never want people to feel bad about spending money to make themselves feel good—especially when things are not so amazing right now. Clothes bring me joy, and retail therapy is a real thing. I don't think we should be running away from that. I want us to be conscientious about what we're consuming. We could all take a closer look at our spending habits and our shopping habits. If we're just throwing stuff away or buying things we don't need just to feel that endorphin rush, then yeah, we need to pay attention to that. It’s important, because there are serious problems with the way Americans—and not just Americans—consume. But at the end of the day, if you want the damn jeans, buy the damn jeans. Are you going to feel good? Are they going to make you happy? Are you going to wear them? Then hell yeah. Why not?

I tried really hard to do a no-buy 2025, and that ship sailed within like three weeks. But I respect people who do that too because we need all voices, all ends of the spectrum. I'm also not someone who can go out and shop luxury fashion all the time, so I'm very discerning about what I buy, how much I spend, and where I buy it from. It’s all valid. It’s all relevant.

Especially working my day job too. I see people come in who are just so excited to shop, to be in person, to try clothes on—and I want to keep giving that to people. There’s something really valid about buying things and wearing things that make us feel good.

Maureen: Yeah, that word "discernment" always comes to my mind. What is discernment to you? What does that entail? What does it feel like?

Jennifer: I hate the expression "if it’s not a hell yes, it’s a hell no," but I do think there’s something to it. I feel strongly about sleeping on things, giving them a minute, feeling good about them. Trying it on. Trying it on again. Trying it on with different outfits. Thinking about what you actually need. And also—falling in love with stuff. It can be anything. Like my black boyfriend sweater from the Gap. I fell in love instantly and was like, “Hell yes, I need this in my closet,” even though I already have multiple black sweaters.

That’s discernment too. As is buying a jacket, putting it away, and three weeks later being like, “You know what? I don’t need this. No thank you.” It can take lots of different forms. The more we know about where our clothes come from—where they’re made, who’s making them, what purpose they serve, how they fit, what materials work with our bodies and our lifestyles—the more we can feel good in what we wear and develop a personal style that actually works for us, whatever that means.

Maureen: Talking about the momming of it all—are there any specific ways your style has changed since becoming a parent?

Jennifer: Yes, definitely. I'm very attuned to fabrications and materials these days because everything needs to be washable. If I can't throw it in our combo washer-dryer, it's never going to work for me. That’s a huge part of it. Fit has been a constant battle over the last couple of years. I think a lot of women—just from life, not even necessarily parenthood—experience changes in their body, lifestyle, how they look and feel, and what they weigh. That definitely rings true when you have a kid.

When I was pregnant, I wore the same black dress every single day because I was pregnant in the middle of summer in New York City. It was like 100 degrees all the time. Nothing felt good. I felt miserable. I had no sense of style—literally none. I was like, black dress, Birkenstocks, call it a day. So I was excited to get back into feeling like myself again after the baby came, but when I went to put on all of my clothes, nothing felt good. It was a lesson in: okay, what do I actually want now?

Two years later, I’m still figuring it out. There are things I would’ve loved in a past life that I put on now and they just don’t work. I’ve been in a huge closet purge lately. I’ve been holding on to things hoping they’ll feel like me again—and they just don’t. Objectively, my closet is still jeans, sweaters, button-downs, and t-shirts—nothing crazy—but the way they fit is different. I’m into more oversized things now. My body shape has changed. I’m playing with proportions differently.

We all go through that at different times. I’ve struggled with it because I tell myself I don’t need a whole new wardrobe, I have all these beautiful clothes, so why am I spending more? But at the end of the day, I have stuff I haven’t reached for in two years. It doesn’t feel like me anymore. We need to give ourselves permission to lean into our changing bodies, personalities, lifestyles, and priorities. If you see me in New York, I’m probably wearing the same five things every day. One day I’ll get more playful again. But for now, it’s practicality all the way.

In my past life, I used to work in luxury fashion and wear five-inch stilettos every day. That is just not it for me anymore. It’s rare to find me in anything other than sneakers.

Maureen: Real question: did you wear stilettos on the subway, or was it a change-when-you-get-there kind of thing?

Jennifer: When I was much younger, when I first started in the industry, I wore them on the subway all the time. Yeah. I was that girl.

Maureen: I love that for you. I just can't even imagine—that feels like a lifetime ago, when everyone was wearing high heels all the time. I remember in college, I had to wear a shoe with a heel just to go to class. What?

Jennifer: A whole different world. I'm so grateful the culture has changed. I'm grateful I work in an office where it's casual—I can wear jeans and sneakers and no one bats an eye. For that, I’m super happy. We’ve become a lot more casual. COVID obviously had something to do with it, so I guess we can put that one in the win column.

I wore heeled boots the other day for a work event. I felt great. Loved them. Ended up walking almost 12,000 steps and realized—I haven’t done this since I was 22. And I remembered why the next day. So I’m like, okay, sneakers it is for the next three weeks. But it’s also fun to get dressed up sometimes. Don’t get me wrong—I love putting on fancy shoes and a dress on occasion and busting out of my denim every now and then.

Maureen: My heeled boots have insoles.

Jennifer: Yes, wise girl. That's so wise. I should have done that.

Maureen: I have this theory and I want to hear your thoughts on it. So again, not a parent, but I follow a lot of moms on here. One thing I think we don't always consider is the passage of time between getting pregnant and then having the child—or however someone becomes a parent. There's a whole period of time where getting dressed becomes more complicated or less of a priority. And in that time, culture and fashion and everything else continues to move forward. So my theory is that when people start to feel more like themselves again after that initial period—which is not to say postpartum doesn’t last longer; I believe it lasts seven years or more—it’s like the fashion world has moved on. And when they try to go back to their old clothes, it’s not just their body that’s changed. Culture has, too. What do you think? Do I sound crazy?

Jennifer: You don’t sound crazy. It’s totally true. For those nine months or so, you kind of sit out all of the trends or the usual wardrobe turnover that happens in a year. You're not there for it. You're not shifting with a new job or season or cultural moment. Then when you come back to it, you’re like, “Wait, this feels dated,” even though it’s only been nine or ten months—which can feel like forever.

It’s strange because for me, my closet wasn’t super trendy to begin with. That was never my vibe. But even then, I went back to this pink striped button-down I bought before the baby, and it just didn’t feel like me anymore. There was nothing trendy about it—it’s just a classic oversized poplin shirt—but I couldn’t bring myself to wear it or get rid of it. It’s such a period of transformation, and everything else continues moving forward without you. I don’t think I realized how big of a shift it would be. I was that naive pre-baby person who said, “I’m never going to change once the baby comes. I’ll still be my old self.” But we’re all that mom. You can’t go through something so life-altering and not change, and that includes what you wear and what you feel good in.

Maureen: I'd like to hear more about what it feels like in your body when you put on clothes. I'm trying to make tangible something that can feel hard to explain, which is that feeling of alignment or misalignment in our clothes. Could you talk about that, maybe using the Gap sweater as an example? What does it feel like in your body to know that something is right—even when your brain says, “You already own black sweaters”?

Jennifer: I actually think that feeling stems a lot from not looking in a mirror. When I first put it on, I looked down, moved around in it, adjusted the sleeves and collar, and thought, “This is good,” even before looking in the mirror. If the sleeves hit just right, the hem is loose enough, the material feels good on my skin—if all those boxes are checked—then I look in the mirror and it’s a bonus that it looks cute.

I actually think that feeling stems a lot from not looking in a mirror. When I first put it on, I looked down, moved around in it, adjusted the sleeves and collar, and thought, “This is good,” even before looking in the mirror. If the sleeves hit just right, the hem is loose enough, the material feels good on my skin—if all those boxes are checked—then I look in the mirror and it’s a bonus that it looks cute.

For me, that feeling is even more relevant with jeans. If they don’t immediately feel good at the waist or around my thighs, or if the length is off—I'm 5'7", so I often have fit issues—then even if they look great in the mirror, it's still a no. Materials are huge for me too. I spent years wearing 100% wool sweaters that were so itchy and uncomfortable because they were cool and everyone wore them. But now I’m like, never again. Who was that for? It certainly wasn’t for me. So the test is always: how do I feel before I even look in the mirror?

Maureen: Great examples. Thank you. Thanks for going there with me. I know it can feel vulnerable to talk about how clothes feel in our bodies, especially since that’s not how we’re used to hearing people talk about fashion.

Jennifer: Anytime.

Maureen: We’re coming to the end. I'd love to finish up with what’s exciting you in fashion right now.

Jennifer: I think the most exciting thing right now is that anything goes. There’s no one way to dress, shop, look good, or feel good. That’s really exciting to me. I’m a kid of the ’90s, when there was basically one way to dress, so it’s thrilling that we’ve moved beyond that.

Personally, I love that wide-leg jeans, oversized tops, and sneakers are in. That’s what I want to wear all the time. And now there are so many ways to wear those things without looking frumpy or undone. More broadly, I think it's exciting that we’re talking more about what dressing means, how clothes impact our lives, and what fashion and style actually are. Working in fashion professionally, it's been amazing to see these conversations spill out into non-industry spaces.

Maureen: Yes, and going full circle back to your role as a buyer—introducing customers to things they didn’t know they wanted—I think that happened for a lot of people with oversized fits and wide-leg pants. At first, we were like, “Why would I do that? I’ve spent my whole life trying to make my body look smaller.” But then we tried it and realized, “Oh my god, I’m so comfortable.” That’s why I’m pro-trends to some degree. They introduce us to things we didn’t know we wanted but that improve our lives.

Jennifer: Totally.

Maureen: I appreciate your example of being excited about what we're wearing now and how many options we have. I hope it continues to be that way.

Jennifer: Yeah, I agree.

Maureen: Thank you so much. This was exactly as insightful and enjoyable as I hoped it would be, which is always lovely. Where can listeners find you?

Jennifer: I’m on Substack—my newsletter is called mom friend. You can also find me on Instagram at @jennifersandra. That’s it. I'm not on TikTok, not doing that whole game. So find me there—I’d love to connect.

Maureen: I’ll include links in the show notes.

Jennifer: Amazing.

Maureen: Thank you again. This was a delight.

Jennifer: Thanks, Maureen. So good to meet you finally.

Maureen: Likewise.

Jennifer: Take care.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Jennifer Cook, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Heads up! There’s no episode next week while I’m away on vacation, but we’ll be back on Friday, May 23 with the penultimate episode of the season, featuring Substack favorite Jennifer Cook of mom friend.

We’ll wrap up Season One on Friday May 30 with the incredible Christine Platt. You might know her from Instagram or one of her many books, The Afrominimalist’s Guide to Living With Less. I can’t wait to share these final episodes with you!

This week’s guest is Calley Dawson, the founder and CEO of circular fashion company, FXRY. We chat about her long tenure in fashion, how her approach to style has changed, and her take on what sustainable fashion even is. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Calley Dawson, creator of the circular fashion startup FXRY. She's a fashion industry veteran who turned her focus to reducing fashion waste by scaling tailoring and mending services. Basically, she's super amazing. Calley, welcome to the show.

Calley: Thanks, Maureen. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Maureen: Yeah, it's so nice to get to sit down and talk a little bit more. I know we talked a bit a couple weeks ago, which is always fun. I had a look at your FXRY website and I loved your quote about your experience in the fashion industry and how you realized that was contributing to the landfill—and now you're looking to reverse that. Just to personalize that moment even further, can you share what got you on the path of advocating for circularity?

Calley: Sure. I've worked in the fashion industry for twenty-five years at all kinds of different big brands around the United States. It was really exciting when I was younger. I really enjoyed the fun of fashion, and even when fast fashion started, it was really fun to be a part of it. I don't know if I was young or not aware—whatever it was, I just had no idea that it was so bad for the planet. But it was a really fun space to be in because it was exploding. For you, Maureen, or anyone listening, it's really fun to work at a company and in a space that's doing well. It's not very fun to work somewhere that's not doing so well. It just doesn't feel good.

The longer I went on working at these different companies and as I've gotten older and matured, I started to realize that the values I have for myself in my own personal life—I want them to align with my work. I don't even know if I knew what my values were when I was in my early twenties. When I really started this journey of doing fashion design, over the years I've come to realize that doing good by the planet and, honestly, just doing good is what feels best for me. I want to always be doing what is the better thing of two options. Nothing's perfect—everything we create has its flip side—but I just want to be marching towards what feels good.

So for me, when I left the last company I was at and thought about what I wanted to do next, no company really excited me in fashion and apparel. I really didn’t want to lose the network and everything I had built up in my career. If I had switched into a different category—if I wanted to go do tech—I’d have to learn something fully new. I really wanted to utilize my skill sets and the network I’d built up.

It was just really exciting to realize that I could align my values by doing something that was truly sustainable and not greenwashing. That was the other thing that was really hard to watch. I sat in these design director positions and had to advocate for my company while also helping people more junior on my team understand how this isn’t greenwashing. And in a lot of cases, accepting that that’s what we were doing, because most brands are overproducing—especially the big ones.

Maureen: Yeah, and that’s really interesting what you said about going where feels right because this idea of intuitive style is, of course, about what we wear and choosing clothes that feel good. But there’s also an aspect of paying attention to what feels good in every aspect of our lives. I really appreciate what you're sharing about what felt right for you with your career.

I'd love to hear a little bit more too. I like to make this comparison that intuition isn’t negating experience, nor is it negating expertise. So I'd love to hear a little bit more from your perspective about how your expertise in fashion led you to figuring out what felt right—versus just a gut feeling. You talked about not knowing your values earlier on. How did you develop that sense of your values and what you wanted to do at work?

Calley: To be really honest, I think one of the biggest things for me is I'm sober. I live in a community of sober people where one of our tenets is to just do good and to make amends for bad things we've done in the past, or things that weren’t appropriate. That has really guided my life.

When I was younger and newly sober, I didn’t know how to talk about that. I hid it a little bit. As I’ve gotten older and more comfortable in my own skin, I’m the first person to shout it from the rooftops. This is a part of my life and a big part of who I am. That’s really allowed me to set forth who I am and bring it into my career. I’ll be one of the first people at a company party to tell people I don’t drink. I’m sober. I’m comfortable with that.

Allowing those parts of my personal life to be in my career and to lead with the values I’ve developed from there has been really important to me. I’d say it’s been an amazing experience learning how to manage people at work and realizing how different everyone is. Also realizing that the way things work is by collaboration and coming together. But the only way that you can come together—for example, to do circularity, because you can’t do it by yourself—it requires so many different people.

It made me realize that we’re all so different, and the only way you get full collaboration is by fully understanding each other: why you’re different, how you’re different. So you have to be your authentic self, so that you can show other people who you are. It allows them to show you who they are, and then you can figure out the path forward. In this case, with sustainability and really figuring out how we can solve this massive overproduction problem. I know that’s a lot of things, but—

Maureen: No, that's amazing. I appreciate everything you just shared. As an aside, I stopped drinking habitually, so I just want to connect with you in that way. I wouldn’t call myself sober in that sense, but I have made some very dramatic changes to my relationship with substances in general. It’s a learning process to figure out how to talk about it with people—if at all. Now that I’ve been doing this for a little while longer, I’m like, “Oh, everything about my life is different. I can tell people this because it’s important to who I am.”

So I appreciate you sharing that because I think it’s really helpful for people to hear. Just not being ashamed, no matter how anyone might react. I’d love to talk a little more about FXRY and what you’re trying to do with it. I watched some of your social media videos and one thing that really stood out to me was a video showing a mending experience for a pair of stretchy jeans. That really connected with me as someone who wears stretchy pants.

Stretchy jeans specifically—there are some very loud voices that are anti-stretch denim, and I think that’s totally great. If you’re a person who can wear non-stretch denim, please enjoy that. And for everyone else who does wear them, I just really appreciated seeing that there is a way to mend that kind of denim and keep it in use, rather than just saying, “Oh, we should never buy that kind of thing.” So I’d love to hear a bit more—not necessarily about that specifically—but about the FXRY approach and how that extends the life of clothing, perhaps compared to other circular fashion alternatives.

Calley: Yeah, totally. You bring up a really great point that's talked about often in these circularity circles that I find myself in. There are definitely different camps, and then there are people who sort of reside in both. Some people are really strong that you should buy quality and therefore spend the money to maintain the quality. And some people are like, but I can't afford that. So I'm going to buy the cheaper option.

I've definitely been in some conversations where someone said, we shouldn't fix the Zara stuff. And I’m like, no, we should fix everything—as long as we can fix it. If someone will wear it, we need to fix it. One of the biggest problems with waste is the plastic and the synthetics. Zara and other similar brands are the problem in the landfill. So however we can keep them going longer is important. At the same time, I would encourage people to think more about what they’re purchasing.

From my personal experience, I used to be a crazy Zara shopper. I spent so much money there every month. I'd get this huge haul shipped to my house, go through it, send half of it back, and keep the rest. I’d wear it not for very long, and then I don’t even know what I did with it—probably donated it to Goodwill. Today, I haven’t bought anything from Zara for probably three years. One of my favorite shirts is from Zara, and I will wear that thing until it’s a rag.

We definitely have people who come in or book online to repair fast fashion items, and they end up spending more than they originally paid. That works for them because they love the item. I would really encourage people to buy stuff they absolutely love. Don’t buy something just because it’s the trend of the moment. If you love the way it looks on you and how it makes you feel—which is what your podcast is all about—then it makes sense to buy it.

We were actually contemplating whether to post that stretchy denim [video]. I was hesitant because it’s not this ethos of quality and vintage. But we were all like, we have to repair all clothing—including stretchy denim—so let’s show people that you can repair your stretch denim and keep it if you love it.

Maureen: Yeah, I had that thought—like, I feel represented by this. In some spaces, I feel actively excluded from the conversation because of my preferences. That really connected with me, and I imagine a lot of other people would feel the same way. These are potential customers, which is good for your bottom line, but also when we think about what we’re actually striving to do when we talk about circular fashion, why wouldn’t we want to make the circle bigger, more welcoming, and more accepting? I appreciate that you're going in that direction. That really connected with me.

So anything else about FXRY that you feel excited about? I didn’t give you a chance to say exactly what it is, so I’d love if you could talk a bit more specifically about the service.

Calley: Yes, absolutely. FXRY is clothing alterations and repairs at your fingertips. You book online, and as long as you live in Seattle, White Center, or Bellevue, we come to your house, pick it up, take it to our studio, fix or alter it, and return it within two weeks.

If that doesn’t work for you—if you need a fitting or an in-person experience—we do pop-ups all over Seattle. We partner with Filson, Eileen Fisher, Anthropologie, Jenni Kane, and a lot of local boutiques and vintage spots. I imagine in the next year we’ll cover every single spot in Seattle. We've really been popping up everywhere!

We just moved into our own commercial space, and we’re figuring out how to bring that to life, likely through pop-up events for now. We’re also introducing mail-in and mail-out services in the next few months. Right now, if you want to use our services and live outside the greater Seattle area, you can email us, and we’ll get you access to our booking portal.

We’re just trying to keep clothing in rotation and out of landfills. That’s really our marketing message. We differ from your local dry cleaner or tailor—not that they aren't doing great work—but they’re not creating a platform to advocate for this kind of change.

That’s really important to me and to our business model. Clothing repair is crucial to keeping clothes in use, but so are alterations. If your clothing fits you really well, you're going to love it for longer. I can’t tell you how many jeans I’ve gotten rid of because the waist was too gaping. Now, I just have my team at FXRY nip in the waist, and I have jeans that fit perfectly.

Maureen: That’s incredible. When I got married a couple years ago, I told my friend I bought a cheap jumpsuit for my reception. I thought maybe I should have gotten something nicer, but then I had it altered—and the alterations were expensive. I told my friend maybe I should’ve bought something more expensive. And she said, “Girl, you have a $400 jumpsuit now!” Because that’s how much the alterations cost. It went from just an okay garment to an incredible one, just by having it fitted to me. When I was done wearing it, I took it to Brides for a Cause in Seattle and donated it. The woman there said, “We’re always looking for jumpsuits. I’m so glad you brought this in.” It had a wonderful, beautiful life and now lives on in my photos. So yeah, the power of alterations is very real for me too.

I know you're an entrepreneur and have professional fashion experience, but this podcast is also about personal style. Before we talk about how you decide what to buy and wear, I want to talk a little bit about your eyewear. It seems to be part of your signature style based on the cool glasses you’re wearing now.

Calley: Yeah, it’s definitely a forced part of my style because I don’t have terrible eyesight now, but that hasn’t always been the case. I’m forty-five now, and when I turned forty, my eyesight started to go. I didn’t know this, but my doctor said eyesight decline around forty is especially common in women.

So when my eyesight started to go, I thought, okay, if I have to wear glasses, they’re going to be cool. My first pair was really cool—kind of like this style—but in a plastic mauvey color. I got them from MyTheresa or SSENSE, one of those European designer platforms. They were Isabel Marant glasses. They were non-refundable, and I just hoped the optician could switch out the lenses, and luckily they could. Those were my first glasses, and they were just readers at first.

Now, over the years, I can’t see up close or far away. I was just telling my husband the other night, “What if I’m going blind?” because it’s disappearing from both ends. It’s mostly reading though—I literally can’t see my phone without my glasses.

Over five years, I’ve only had three pairs. The ones I’m wearing now aren’t the best prescription. My best ones are black, and they look amazing but box in my eyesight, which I don’t love. I don’t think contacts would work for me because I have a progressive prescription, and I don’t love the idea of putting something in my eye every day. So I’ve just embraced the glasses.

It’s sweet of you to notice.

Maureen: I think it's fun—like we all have different constraints on what we decide to buy or wear. If you have an opportunity to turn a constraint into something really fun and expressive, that's really nice, and I respect it. So, talking a bit more about your personal style, can you share how you decide what to buy or wear—or what not to?

Calley: My style has certainly changed over the years—not only because of shifting trends, but also because I used to be a fast fashion addict. About five years ago, I started to shift, and then three years ago, I completely cut that off and stopped shopping that way.

It might also be because I’m an entrepreneur now, and money is different when you’re making it for yourself instead of getting a paycheck. Today, I really focus on what I love—what makes me excited. If I see something in a store and I want to wear it out immediately, I know I need it. That doesn’t happen often, and I think it’s because I’ve collected items I truly love.

I have a uniform I wear more than anything: a cropped denim button-down with slightly baggy jeans and some mules. Then I have this incredible vintage army liner jacket with a great story—it’s been upcycled and resold multiple times. I picked it up, and then I had FXRY repair it. It's an amazing piece, and I’m excited to add more clothes with stories like that.

I’m really looking for quality items that are durable and sturdy. Recently, I’ve been staying away from synthetic fibers and going more organic and natural. That’s hard with gym wear, which I use a lot, but I’m figuring it out. I’m also staying away from anything poorly made.

Maureen: That’s fair. I heard something earlier that I wanted to come back to—about that moment of knowing you want to wear something out of the store. Can you describe how that feels in your body? What’s that experience like?

Calley: It’s definitely a rush of dopamine, but it feels like more than that. I think I get excited because it’s going to become a part of me—like I’m adding it to my uniform. It’s a full-body excitement, but not in a jolt kind of way. It feels calm, like a sense of belonging. That thing belongs with me.

It's kind of like when I met my husband and knew we needed to be together. I know it sounds ridiculous to compare that to a clothing purchase, but it’s a similar feeling—just a different degree of intensity.

Maureen: I’m hearing a sense of connection—something you relate to and connect with.

Calley: Yes, definitely. Another thing I realized is I used to go overboard. If I liked cropped button-downs, I’d go buy fifty in different styles. I don’t need that. Now I ask myself: would I want to wear this more than what I’m wearing right now? That’s really helpful—especially when I’m already wearing an outfit I love and I’m out shopping. Would I trade it for what I’m looking at?

Maureen: Yes, yes. I just put up a post recently about what our favorite items can tell us about our preferences. When you have those rock star, go-to items, it becomes easier to evaluate future purchases. If it’s not as good as the thing you already love, why add it? You’ll just default to the one you already love.

Of course, different categories are different—a denim jacket isn’t the same as a pair of hiking boots—but I follow the same mentality. I love hearing when others experience that too.

What else about the experience of being in your clothing influences how you dress? We talked about fabric—avoiding synthetics. Is that more about feel or sustainability?

Calley: More about sustainability. Being in this world now, I have so much more access to information and research. People are constantly sharing how harmful synthetics can be—like microplastics that get washed out and then end up on your skin all day.

I saw a TikTok recently that really made me think about what I want against my most exposed organ—my skin. I’d never thought about it before. You can even go deeper with types of dyes, but for now, I’m just starting here. If I go too deep, I get overwhelmed, and then I feel paralyzed. Small steps feel more manageable.

Interestingly, I realized I’m starting to prefer how cotton feels, even if I didn’t consciously connect it before. Today, I was picking out a shirt, and I chose a cotton one instead of a synthetic blend. Maybe it was intuitive.

Maureen: I don’t have an opinion on that one way or another—it’s not for me to say—but I was curious if your decision was more emotional or analytical.

Calley: It’s been very recent—just in the last couple of weeks—that the idea of organic versus synthetic started coming up for me. I hadn’t thought about it before. Now it’s starting to surface.

My husband has also influenced me. He’s always dressed in good quality, well-made things that tend not to be synthetic. He’s been a big influence on me over the last couple of years.

Maureen: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting, too, because I also haven't thought about the plastics up against my skin—not once. I know about the microplastics in the water, but I never thought about, oh, it's also on my organs. So I'm going to think about that more. But on the other hand, sometimes it's good that these synthetics exist for a wider audience. Specifically, I’m thinking of people who are allergic to wool. There's a specific person I know who was a guest on this podcast—if you're listening, this is for you.

But you know, how are you going to stay warm in the winter if you're allergic to wool? I guess you could wear leather and linen, but cotton is not safe in water. For example, “cotton kills” is something they say on the river if you're a whitewater rafter. It’s just all so complicated. I never know what’s the right or wrong thing, and we all have such different needs.

Calley: Totally. I completely agree with you. And I think the other thing is, when we talk about sustainability—what do we mean? There isn’t really a clear definition for the movement. Plastic is certainly more durable than cotton. It lasts way longer, but that’s also the problem—it lasts too long.

At past companies I worked at, we discussed biodegradable clothing and such. But I’d think, we don’t want it to fall apart either. That was one of the hardest things with recycled or organic clothing when it first became popular—it would fall apart faster. But now there’s more research and new technologies that are improving durability. Still, who knows what the right thing is?

Maureen: I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I’d love to hear more about your approach to sustainability. I haven’t seen convincing evidence that there’s one specific way to be a sustainable or ethical shopper—everything has pros and cons. So, as someone who's been in that space, where do you land?

Calley: It was something I used to joke about all the time at the companies I worked at—if we really wanted to be the most sustainable, we’d close. And if you want to get really dark, I’m surprised Black Mirror hasn’t done an episode where humans eliminate themselves to save the planet.

Obviously, that’s extreme and not what we want. So for me, it's about being smaller in our purchasing. Supporting what I believe in—like my business, FXRY—and dedicating myself to repairing and loving what you have. Overconsumption is just out of control.

There is a trend shifting because fashion literally can't get faster or cheaper—it has to change. That’s what fashion does. It evolves. There are ideas like circular clothing—wear it, return it, recycle it—but recycling also comes with carbon emissions. For me, the best path is repair. Keep the item until it truly can’t be worn, then find a way to recycle it.

We have a long way to go. And honestly, our government isn’t helping. If we had laws like Europe does, that would really push brands to be different.

Maureen: I appreciate you saying that. I think when we’re trying to align our values with how we shop, there’s often too much emphasis on the impact of the individual consumer. Ultimately, I’m not responsible for unfettered capitalism.

Boycotting can be meaningful, but as an individual—unless it’s part of a collective movement—it’s limited. I want to see more people petitioning the government for restrictions on how brands operate. That feels more impactful than shaming individuals for shopping or telling people to buy less just for moral reasons.

Instead, I try to focus on the benefits of having fewer things—feeling more aligned with what you own. That sense of connection we were talking about earlier.

Calley: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: It’s about understanding the value of fewer, better things. And how we can connect with what we own, rather than chase the dopamine hit of buying something misaligned with us. I don’t judge it—I’ve done it and will probably do it again. But we build up a tolerance to that when we experience the joy of owning something that really fits who we are.

I appreciate your point that, if the restrictions aren’t there, what incentive does a brand truly have to act better?

Calley: Totally.

Maureen: Anyway, enough about that stuff. We talked a bit about your past fast fashion shopping and how you’ve changed your habits. But are there any other memorable phases or moments that helped you establish the uniform you wear today?

Calley: Not necessarily the uniform itself, but one moment that comes to mind was when I moved from Orange County to Seattle. In Orange County, it was all about the car you drove, the bag you carried—very label-driven, luxury-focused.

When I got to Seattle, that wasn’t the case. But every time I was at PCC [a local organic, community-driven grocery store], trying to figure out the recycling, trash, compost bins—I was overwhelmed. I realized I’d traded my luxury handbag and fancy car for a Ridwell bin and a new kind of virtue signaling. It’s not to say one is better or worse, just different. It was interesting to see how microcultures shape values depending on where you live.

When I moved into my apartment here, I met my now-close friend who was my neighbor. She was also forty, single, had two dogs—we became fast friends, especially during COVID. We did everything together.

At the time, I was still ordering from Zara, getting big boxes, and sneaking past her door with my haul, hoping she wouldn’t see. She’s extremely eco-conscious—washing paper towels, thinking at night about how to do better. I was terrified of her seeing this side of me.

Eventually, it came up. I was so scared she would judge me—but she didn’t. She met me where I was. She shared what she did daily, not in a preachy way, just by example. I started to see how she lived—how she consumed or didn’t consume. That moment really taught me the importance of meeting people where they are.

If you're trying to connect, understand, or persuade, you can't just shout at people on TikTok doing Shein hauls. You have to understand why they do what they do and offer a better path—just one small shift at a time. Then another. That’s how change happens.

Maureen: Thank you. Everything you just said is my North Star. We have to meet people where they are. Be curious. If we truly care about outcomes—if we want to be effective—we must care about the humanness of the people making these choices. Otherwise, we stay on the moral high ground and fail to make an impact. From your friend’s kindness to the changes you’ve made—it’s a perfect example of how to create behavior change. Through kindness, patience, and nonjudgmental guidance. That story will stay with me for a long time.

Calley: Yay.

Maureen: I’m glad you have such a good friend you can connect with—maybe even more so now that you both understand each other’s values.

So, to that end—what’s exciting you in fashion right now, if anything?

Calley: Oh my gosh. I think it's really exciting to watch people doing things in the fashion tech space. I just saw a post by a woman named Mary Corlin Downs. She started a very cool publication—her Instagram is All Things Fashion Tech. She shares a lot about fashion tech and recently posted these beautiful fashion photos of herself—pictures of her shoes, dresses, and outfits.

She labeled the images with terms like "secondhand," "altered," "repaired," and "outfit repeating." The photography was couture-level, but it leaned into sustainability in a way that felt elevated. A couple of years ago, people might have been sharing montages of 50 different outfits in a month, but here she is showing repetition—and it’s beautiful.

I love seeing that shift. I don’t love the sheer amount of secondhand clothing that exists from overproduction, but I do love the access to it. There are cool businesses like Benny, which helps you shop secondhand, and Index, which lets you categorize your wardrobe. It’s just so helpful.

I think it’s great we’re moving away from going to the mall and shopping off mannequins. I remember in my twenties, going to Forever 21 and buying full mannequin outfits—one for every week, basically. Now, I think differently. Maybe I have five neckerchiefs I love that are part of my uniform. I cycle through four outfits. That’s what excites me today.

Maureen: That’s beautiful. I’m loving the move toward outfit repeating too. It’s such a relief. The pressure to constantly wear something new can be stressful. If we normalize repeating outfits, we don’t have to mentally calculate whether someone has already seen us in something. Once you get used to it, outfit repeating actually feels great.

I love seeing examples of that. And just to confirm, who was the person you mentioned with the editorial images?

Calley: Mary Corlin Downs. Her Instagram is All Things Fashion Tech.

Maureen: Thank you! I’ll be sure to include it in the show notes.

Our final question is: what advice would you give someone who’s trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?

Calley: I’ve said this a few times, but it’s worth repeating—focus on clothing that excites you and that you feel a connection to. Don’t buy something just because it’s trendy. If barrel jeans are the trend, and you truly connect with that look, go for it. But don’t do it just because it's the moment.

I also think about adding pieces slowly. I used to buy multiple items at once—big hauls. Now I really limit myself. Maybe one or two items at a time. I focus on how one new piece updates my wardrobe. And I always ask: do I want to wear this more than what I have on right now?

Avoid duplicating the same items. You can build a much more interesting wardrobe without fifty black shirts or button-downs.

Maureen: The idea of only buying one garment at a time and working it in—how does that help you?

Calley: For me, I’m really into dressing in the same tones from head to toe. I’ve been doing that for five or six years. I mostly wear denim or a dusty rose tone. That consistency helps me shop. If I see something loud or outside my palette, I skip it—unless I truly love it and can pair it with something like an all-white outfit.

Bringing home one item at a time lets me see how it fits into my existing wardrobe. I definitely still make mistakes—I’ve bought things I thought I loved and realized later I didn’t. But if I had bought five items at once, it would be harder to notice that disconnect. Limiting it helps me be more intentional and assess each new piece carefully.

Bringing home one item at a time lets me see how it fits into my existing wardrobe. I definitely still make mistakes—I’ve bought things I thought I loved and realized later I didn’t. But if I had bought five items at once, it would be harder to notice that disconnect.

Maureen: That’s such a great example. It’s hard to connect with five things at once, but one? You can really pay attention to how it fits, how it feels. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I’m going to now. As expected, this was an absolute delight. I appreciate how honest and open you were. It's not always easy to reflect on how we’ve grown, so thank you.

Where can listeners find you?

Calley: You can find FXRY on Instagram at @the.fxry. Our website is thefxry.com. We’re on TikTok and LinkedIn, but not as active. Instagram is where we’re most engaged—we make fun and informative content to show what we do and to spread the word that you can repair stretchy jeans and other things people might not realize are fixable.

We’ve done a lot of children’s items too. It’s really fun to showcase fixing something like a little girl’s favorite pink sweater. Instagram is a great place to get ideas and learn how to take better care of your clothes.

Maureen: Incredible. I’ll link everything in the show notes. Thanks again—this was such a joy.

Calley: Thank you so much, Maureen. It was really enjoyable.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Calley Dawson, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Only a few more episodes in Season 1 of the podcast! Don’t missing upcoming conversations with Calley Dawson— founder of circular fashion brand FXRY, plus Jennifer Cook of mom friend, and one more surprise guest I can’t wait to reveal.

Make sure you're subscribed—you won't want to miss the finale!

Today’s guest is stylist, writer, and creative consultant Fanny Adams of Always Overdressed. We connect over losing touch with our preppy roots while in art school, plus Fanny provides a bit more detail on her concept of the ‘Emotional Support Outfit.’

This episode touches on some tender topics—grief, body changes, and navigating personal style through it all. If you're having a tough week, know that we go there—but we also find some lightness and laughter by the end. Enjoy.

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into that intuition so we can dress authentically and live fully.

Today's guest is Fanny Adams, a stylist, writer, and creative consultant with nearly twenty years of experience in fashion. She's also an outfit repeater and the brains behind the Substack newsletter Always Overdressed. Fanny, welcome to the show.

Fanny: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Maureen: It's nice to sit down and talk together. For anyone who hasn’t had a chance to read your column yet, can you share what got you started writing on the platform?

Fanny: It had been in the back of my mind for a few years, but what really prompted it wasn’t a happy reason. My dad died a year and a half ago. I not only lost my sense of self but also my sense of style. I had a lot of thoughts on grief—how it affects you inwardly and how it impacts your outward presentation.

I had this essay in my head for a few months. I was also looking to go out on my own as a stylist, and Substack felt like a nice complement to building my brand. That essay, combined with launching my website, got me out there.

Maureen: I'm genuinely sorry for your loss. How did the process of writing relate to your experience of grief?

Fanny: I had the honor of writing my dad’s obituary. That was my first experience writing to process loss, and it was really sad but meaningful. Last summer, while quietly building my Substack page and thinking about my first post, I made a promise to myself: I would get dressed every day.

Something as simple as putting on real clothes—not just sweats—became a way to work through grief. It gave me a small, manageable goal. Sometimes even the smallest tasks feel enormous when you’re struggling.

I started putting on what I call my "emotional support outfits"—simple, comforting clothes. Then I started documenting them. Some friends encouraged me to post on TikTok, so I did, mostly to hold myself accountable.

At night, I'd think about things I wanted to write about—not just grief, but other style topics. That’s how it all began.

Maureen: I love that. Having a small goal like getting dressed can give you confidence to do other things. Is that how it felt?

Fanny: Definitely. Getting dressed was the first step to getting the day started, then moving on to harder tasks. It also became a form of self-care.

During the year after my dad’s death, I gained weight. So part of the process was giving myself grace—finding clothes that felt and looked good enough for where I was at.

It helped me feel more presentable while also rediscovering pieces I loved. At one point, I realized, "I need new jeans." And that was okay. We’re allowed to gain or lose weight. Our bodies change all the time—monthly even.

So I gave myself permission to buy things that fit. That made the experience much more enjoyable.

Maureen: It can be hard to give ourselves permission to buy clothes that suit where we are now—especially when we’re trying to be mindful consumers. What did it change for you, having clothes that fit?

Fanny: I learned not to immediately get rid of clothes when my size changes, but I’m still guilty of it. Giving yourself permission to buy clothes that fit your current body is self-care and self-acceptance. It’s about meeting yourself where you are.

I’m a millennial. I grew up with specific body ideals, and I’ve worked really hard to unlearn them. But it’s tough when you’ve worked in fashion and retail. That pressure is everywhere. Why make it harder?

At one point, I bought jeans from Zara. I wasn’t sure how long I’d be this size, and they were a good, affordable option. Honestly, I now swear by Zara jeans—they did what I needed them to do. They helped me stay on track with this daily dressing practice.

Maureen: I saw you recently posted that you’d fallen off the dressing routine.

Fanny: Yeah, I’ve slipped a bit. It’s just life—nothing traumatic, just busy.

But last summer, those pieces really helped. They were a bridge. Over time, I’ve invested in higher-quality pieces that fit me now. But Zara jeans were the perfect in-between step. They helped rebuild my confidence.

Maureen: I really resonate with that. We all define mindful shopping differently. For me, my size is changing constantly right now.

My approach is to buy fewer items and wear them to death. That’s how I justify buying from places like Gap. I’ve tried more expensive, more ethical jeans, but they don’t fit the way I need—or they don’t carry my size.

We don’t need to defend our choices. What works at one moment might change in another. Right now, I’m buying Gap jeans. Not too many. I’ll wear them as long as I can, and one pair will become shorts for summer.

The reason I bring it up is because I’ve been feeling tender about some things I’ve read online—posts that unintentionally shame people for shopping certain brands.

When we’re already carrying heavy emotions—like grief or major body changes—we don’t need to add shame on top of that.

Fanny: Absolutely. I think there’s a lot of pressure put on consumers, and I don’t think it’s fair. It’s all about balance. Like, giving up plastic straws isn’t solving the environmental crisis, but it’s something I can do.

The same goes for how we get dressed. “High-low dressing,” for lack of a more current term, is a realistic way to shop. I don’t think it’s feasible—even if you’re a gazillionaire—to wear only designer or fully sustainable brands.

We all make trade-offs. I buy four Uniqlo t-shirts at a time. It’s not the most sustainable choice, and Uniqlo, while more responsible than other fast fashion brands, is still fast fashion. But those are the shirts that fit me best, and I wear them nearly every day.

I’m not going to spend $95 on a sustainable t-shirt that doesn’t fit or hold up the way I need. As consumers, we need to: shop for what fits and feels good, and do the best we can

We’re part of the system, but we’re not the sole cause. Our wallets matter, sure, and it’s important to think about where we shop. But it's unrealistic to expect everyone to wear only organic, sustainable clothes—especially when you factor in size and price point.

We need to be gentler with ourselves and each other, especially when we have a platform. We're already our own worst critics. Adding judgment from peers, writers, or creators only makes things worse.

Maureen: I really appreciated your note on Substack about not feeling the joy of getting dressed right now. I related to that. Sometimes getting dressed is self-care, and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes, it’s the hardest part of the day.

When we’re not distracted—when we’re alone in our room choosing an outfit—that’s when all the feelings we’ve been avoiding can bubble up. It’s not always about the clothes, but they can be the trigger.

So hearing that from someone like you, who’s always overdressed and who works in fashion, helps bring balance. It’s a reminder that it’s okay to not always feel excited about getting dressed.

Fanny: Thank you. Part of why I posted that was to let people know I hadn’t disappeared—I just wasn’t in the right headspace.

I plan to write more about it this week. Going back to the idea of the emotional support outfit—some call it a uniform, but I think it’s either a step before or a step beyond. It’s a formula: something you can throw on without thinking too much, something that feels good enough.

When my dad was sick, that outfit was jean shorts, a t-shirt, and Birkenstocks. I wasn’t working much—just helping my family and caring for my kids. That outfit made me feel comfortable and fine.

Now that I’m consulting and meeting people in person again, I needed an updated version. I found that for me, it’s a button-up shirt, jeans or khakis, and loafers or ballet flats. That’s my current version of an emotional support outfit. I can throw on a sweater or a jacket, but those three pieces make me feel polished and comfortable.

I’m literally wearing it right now—button-up shirt, jeans, and Birkenstocks since I’m at home. It helps me feel confident and presentable, even when clothes aren’t my focus.

We all need to know the combination of items that helps us feel good enough to move through the day—whether we’re parenting, working, or just getting through it. We want to feel great, but that’s not always realistic.

These past two weeks, I found myself repeating the same shirts because it worked. I was seeing different people each day, so no one noticed. But it made me not want to take outfit pictures—it was basically the same look over and over.

Still, it was good to have that fallback formula. It kept me moving forward even when the joy of getting dressed wasn't there. And I still felt good leaving the house. It wasn’t exciting, but it worked.

It’s like how Obama wore the same suit-and-tie combo daily—it reduced decision fatigue. There are times when, even if you love clothes, they can’t be your top priority. Having an emotional support outfit takes away the shame of not feeling your best.

You can still do the things you need to do—school drop-offs, work meetings—and feel pretty good about yourself.

Maureen: And maybe you’ll touch on this in your post, but I think the hardest part can be figuring out what that uniform even is when you’re stuck. Do you have any suggestions for that?

Fanny: When you're really in the thick of it, figuring out your “uniform” can be hard. It’s a bit of trial and error. But if you’re trying to identify key pieces—your hero pieces—you can fall back on, one technique I love is setting aside a section of your closet. If you have a rolling rack, great. If not, just use one area.

As you wear things throughout the week, move them into that space. After a few days, you’ll start to see what you’re actually gravitating toward. We all have full closets but usually wear the same handful of items. Seeing them set apart can help you recognize patterns.

You might realize you keep wearing a pair of jeans—not because you love them, but because they fit right now. That insight can guide you to find a pair you actually love. Or maybe, like me, you’re reaching for a button-up, a sweater, and jeans every day. That tells you something.

This exercise helps cut through closet overwhelm. I’m not saying you have to get rid of everything else, but knowing what your go-to items are is powerful. Maybe it’s a favorite cashmere sweater—then you know it’s worth taking good care of and making it last. Or maybe you realize you keep reaching for a blazer but don’t have one that fits or feels current. That helps you shop more thoughtfully, instead of just saying, “I have nothing to wear” and heading straight to the store without a plan.

I use this with clients too. It’s not just about finding your formula—it helps you sort through what you already own and identify what’s missing. Wardrobes are works in progress. Our lives change, our bodies change, our needs change.

You might also start noticing color preferences. I recently realized I don’t wear much black anymore—except for one sweater and some accessories. It’s not that I dislike black, but it’s not where I’m at right now. So I know not to keep bringing more black into my wardrobe.

These kinds of observations can be more helpful than arbitrary “style rules.” I don’t love the word “rules” in fashion anyway. I prefer “formula” or “guidelines.” They give you structure without boxing you in.

Maureen: I love that, and it actually reminds me of the design process in my work. I’m a user researcher and designer in the software world, and what you just described sounds like a discovery phase.

You don’t start with the solution—you start by understanding the problem. And shopping is often treated like the solution, but without understanding what’s not working, we could be solving the wrong thing.

It’s not that shopping is bad—we just want to make informed decisions. Use the data from your own wardrobe before clicking “add to cart.”

Fanny: Exactly. And hey, we’re still allowed to shop for the dopamine hit once in a while. I’m not anti-shopping. But if you want a wardrobe that’s cohesive and makes you feel confident, you’ll get further by shopping with a purpose.

And it’s tricky because for many of us, browsing is a form of relaxation. It’s part of the culture. Instagram has become a marketplace, and sometimes you end up on a brand’s website without even realizing you clicked through.

Browsing is okay. But having a working shopping list in mind while you’re browsing helps. It lets you consume more consciously—better for the environment and your budget. Especially right now, with financial uncertainty, it’s a good time to get creative with what we already have.

Historically, moments of constraint lead to creativity. So I’m curious to see what comes out of this period, too. People might not want to shop as much, and that discomfort with consumption might be where some of the criticism and shame comes from.

Choosing not to shop is a political act. Our wallets speak volumes. But we’re also human. Clothes wear out, and if we’re shopping mindfully, that’s okay.

I don’t think clothes are frivolous. For me, dressing is one of my truest creative outlets. To say fashion doesn’t matter discredits how we present ourselves to the world. Not everyone has to love fashion, but everyone has style. Everyone has preferences. It’s just a matter of how much attention and time they give it.

Maureen: That’s so important. One of the main ideas behind my platform is that everyone has style. We’ve just lost the ability to center our own preferences and trust that they’re valid.

People say, “I don’t have style,” but their closet is full of choices—choices based on what they like, or what they think they should like. Either way, it’s valid. It might be survival, it might be self-expression, or a bit of both.

It’s not a binary—you have style or you don’t. Everyone gets dressed. We just need to expand what we think “style” is.

Fanny: Absolutely. And honestly, I find that people who don’t work in fashion often have the most interesting, authentic style.

My dad worked in construction later in life and wore jeans and polos every day, but when it came time to dress up, he wore custom suits. My mom’s an artist.

Fashion was important in our house—not in a designer-label way, but in a creative, expressive way.

Some of the most stylish women I know are doctors, lawyers—people whose jobs don’t involve fashion at all. I actually think the more limitations people have, the more creatively they dress.

Kids in school uniforms figure out how to express themselves through socks or accessories. Adults do the same—doctors might wear bold glasses or jewelry. You find ways to express yourself within constraints.

So when people say they don’t have style, I think they’re actually discrediting themselves. They just might not feel fashionable, but they definitely have a style.

You don’t have to be a “fashion girly” to have good style. In fact, sometimes those of us deep in the industry get so caught up in consuming the same media that our ideas start to blur.

It’s often people outside the echo chamber who are coming up with the freshest, most thought-provoking takes. Fanny: The subject matter overlaps a lot—we're reading the same magazines, watching the same fashion shows, following similar creators. Even though we have different points of view, there's still this shared pool of inspiration.

Sometimes I wonder, “If I publish this, will people think I’m copying someone?” But it’s just that the content we’re consuming is so pervasive across every part of our lives, it’s natural there’s overlap. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent.

Maureen: No, I’m with you the whole way. I’ve been thinking a lot about how far I want to go with this because, if I’m being honest, fashion is one of my favorite things in the world—right up there with my family and marine mammals.

But I don’t work in fashion, and even though I love writing and talking about it, I sometimes hit a wall. I wonder, “How do I make this about more than just clothes? How do we have real conversations about our lives? How do we see clothing as just one part of a full, complex personhood? That’s actually why I started my Sunday Reset newsletter series.

Fanny: I love that series so much. That first one you sent really connected with me.

Maureen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. I had this moment where I wondered if it would be interesting to anyone because it wasn’t strictly about fashion—or if it would come off as preachy. But I approached it like a note to myself.

When I feel burned out from consuming too much fashion content, I need some kind of personal practice. I want to make space for inspiration that comes from outside the internet—and also from within.

I’m not going to stop reading people’s posts, but I want to be intentional about reminding myself that’s not the only place to draw from.

Sometimes we get into this all-or-nothing mindset: if I’m burned out, maybe I should stop writing entirely. But maybe it’s not that. Maybe it’s just shifting focus for a bit. I guess I’m grappling with whether turning something we love into a chore is just inevitable when we spend too much time on it.

Fanny: Yeah, I think it can happen. When you're burnt out or feeling stuck, the things we usually love can start to feel like chores.

And I don’t think you can always stop that from happening. The real question is how you move through it—maybe it’s by taking a break, leaning on outfit formulas that make you feel good without much effort, or finding new sources of inspiration. That’s why your Sunday Reset newsletter has felt so refreshing. It’s a reminder that inspiration outside of fashion is just as valuable.

Maureen: I appreciate that.

Fanny: I’ll admit I’ve struggled to finish a book in the past few years, but when I find one that really grabs me—usually not fashion-related—it’s such a good reset.

Same with going to a museum, or just getting outside now that the weather’s nicer.

It’s not about quitting fashion or getting dressed or writing. It’s just about focusing on something else for a while, and then letting that bring you back around to fashion in a new way.

Maureen: That’s really helpful—and thank you for reading. I appreciate you going with me through this conversation. I always hope these talks feel uplifting and light, but sometimes they go into heavier territory.

I’m just really grateful you were willing to go there with me today. Sometimes, that’s just where we are—and I think it’s important to name it rather than pretend everything’s fine.

Fanny: Absolutely.

Maureen: So, shifting gears a little—I’d love to talk about one of my favorite posts of yours. It felt a bit more upbeat, and it was about reconnecting with your preppy style roots.

You mentioned earlier that you’d tried to fit in with the hipster art kids in Silver Lake during school, and as a design school grad myself, I really relate.

Can you talk a bit about how you found your way back to that preppy part of yourself and learned to embrace it?

Fanny: Sure. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, which isn’t usually associated with preppy style—but the area I was in definitely leaned that way.

Portland often gets grouped with Seattle and thought of in terms of flannel and grunge, but my neighborhood was a bit more waspy. There was definitely a strong prep influence.

And like I mentioned, my dad wore a polo shirt every single day. That was his uniform. So it was just part of the style environment I grew up in.

I also went to an all-girls Catholic prep school for high school, which added to that aesthetic. Portland, especially at that time, had a naturally sporty, preppy vibe. And being so close to Nike and Adidas, that made sense.

There’s just an inherent sportiness and preppiness to Portland that’s different from Seattle. So going to art school was a bit of a shock. I was kind of a pretentious turd about it—I insisted on going to a school with a foundation program because I wanted to be a “serious” art student.

But the takeaway from that program wasn’t color theory like I’d hoped. It was more like learning how to use an X-Acto knife to cut foam core perfectly. Foundation year almost broke me, and it’s wild to think that’s what I based my college decision on.

Art school is, pretty universally, a place full of kids smoking cigarettes, being pretentious, thinking they’re the best. After foundation year, my confidence was really shaken.

Then I entered the fashion program, which was incredibly intense. Even while I was trying to fit in with the hipster crowd, I was in survival mode—just wearing jeans and a tank top to get through 10-hour days of class and hours of homework.

I lived on the East side, had great friends, but style-wise I was the outlier. My instinct, like many young adults, was to try and fit in—especially because I was struggling so much with the workload. My program was very illustration-heavy, and while I had strong design ideas, my illustration skills weren’t on the same level as others. That hit my confidence hard.

Looking back, it’s fine—but in the moment, it really shook me. I wanted to belong. I loved the neighborhood, still do when I visit, but I didn’t quite fit in. I was too tall, too well-fed, too blonde. I even let my hair go dark and dyed it red for a few years, trying to blend in.

This was during the Jenna Lyons–era J.Crew revival, so preppiness was starting to trickle back in. After college, I moved to Paris for a bit and did a program there. I interned for a while before returning to the U.S. Paris at the time still had a hipster vibe, like Echo Park or Silver Lake, but it was different. There was a tailored, elevated element to how people dressed—clean straight-leg jeans, ballet flats, blazers. Those preppy elements were mixed in and felt more natural to me. French style and preppy style are different, but they overlap: the tailoring, the understated hair, the natural highlights. It reminded me of preppy style in a grown-up way, and I felt like, “Oh, this is me.”

It was nice to feel like my instincts made sense again. Dressing that way in Paris felt right in a way it hadn’t in LA. I leaned into navy and brown instead of the black and gray everyone wore in LA.

When I came back to LA, I was a bit older—not 19 or 20 anymore. I had gained confidence from dressing in a way that felt like myself during my time in Paris, and I kept that going. I no longer felt like I stood out in a bad way. I felt like myself. Now that I’m older, I’m maybe less adventurous, but that’s because I know what I like. I still try trends, but I trust what feels good. Even if it makes you different from the people around you, that’s okay.

A lot of that comfort comes with age and experience—from being 19 to 24 to 35 and now 40. It gets easier to know and accept what you like, even as your body or life changes. I don’t ever want anyone to feel “less than,” but I think it’s normal to go through phases where you feel like you don’t fit. You learn from those experiences—they help you figure out what’s actually you.

Back then, I was trying to present as someone I wasn’t. I wasn’t a music expert. I loved cigarettes, but I wasn’t that person. And I wasn’t friends with them because I was like them—I was friends with them because I brought something different.

Since moving back to Portland about ten years ago, I’ve embraced that I love blazers, button-up shirts, loafers, ballet flats. I didn’t stop wearing ballet flats when they went “out”—I leaned into loafers, and now that ballet flats are “back,” it’s fun to see the trends cycle around.

It’s affirming when something you’ve always worn comes back in style. Rediscovering my preppy roots came from getting so far away from my authentic self that I had to boomerang back. In the process, I found a balance. I still love a graphic tee. I’m not wearing distressed denim right now—it doesn’t suit my lifestyle—but I still love it. I still wear Converse. I ended up back where I started—not just geographically, but stylistically. In high school, I had five different colors of the same fitted Gap button-up. Now, I’m back to wearing button-ups and jeans—it’s just the grown-up, more sophisticated version.

When you get far from your style, it’s only natural to find your way back. You just have to be patient and trust yourself. It sounds hokey, but what feels right to you is right for you.

Maureen: I feel like we could talk forever! What advice would you give to someone who’s trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?

Fanny: I’d go back to the idea of separating the clothes you’re actually wearing, so you can identify patterns—what you like, what feels good.

Don’t hold onto things that don’t feel right. If a pair of pants hasn’t fit in over a year, maybe it’s time to let them go. It’s okay to keep sentimental pieces, even if you’ll never wear them again. But identifying what you love and why—material, cut, color, texture—that’s powerful.

Then ask yourself: why am I not wearing this? Is it uncomfortable? Too tight? I’ll never wear tight jeans again. I want comfort. Knowing what feels bad is just as important as knowing what feels good. From there, you can work with what you already have and fill in any missing pieces.

Also, just because something isn’t on trend doesn’t mean it’s wrong. When ballet flats went away, I didn’t stop wearing them—and look, they came back. What’s great about 2025 is that everything is available. Whether new or vintage, we have so much access now. Despite all the waste in fashion, people are better about caring for and reselling clothes.

You’ll likely be able to find what you love—it just takes patience. And that’s the key: patience. People think hiring a stylist or doing a closet clean-out will fix everything overnight. But it’s a process. Building a thoughtful wardrobe takes time. Shop slowly, wear things intentionally, and experiment with pieces you love. Maybe you just needed to try it a new way—or maybe it’s time to let it go. This isn’t a quick fix. It can take years to develop a wardrobe—and a level of confidence—that really feels like you.

Maureen: That’s such great advice. And realistic too—people know what they’re getting into. Thank you so much for joining me. Where can listeners find you?

Fanny: You can find me on Substack—it’s called Always Overdressed.

We didn’t really touch on the name, but here’s the backstory: Portland is a pretty casual city, and I’d often say to my husband, “I feel like I’m more dressed up than everyone else.”

And he’d say, “Just because they don’t look good doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.”

That’s not the nicest thing, but it was his way of cheering me on—to wear what I want, even if no one else is.

I’m also on Instagram and TikTok under Fanny Adams. I’ve really enjoyed being part of the Substack community—it’s full of interesting voices and people I connect with. It’s been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Maureen: Thank you for being here. I’ve loved getting to know you beyond your writing.

Also, I’m now 100% thinking about how I can find ballet flats, loafers, and a crisp white button-down. Okay, I was already thinking about them—but now I’m really thinking about them.

Fanny: Good!

Maureen: Thanks again—and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Fanny: You too. Thank you.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Fanny Adams, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams, Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks!

Today's guest is Sienna Reid, writer of the Substack column The Bronze Edit. I am both so inspired by her very cool personal style AND the way she writes about the experience of getting dressed. I so enjoyed connecting with her. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I'm Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Sienna Reid from The Bronze Edit. In her newsletter, Sienna chronicles her experience figuring out her personal style in her 30s. As a fellow wide pants lover, she pulls the best inspiration images and eloquently analyzes how getting dressed feels. Sienna, welcome to the show.

Sienna: Thank you so much, Maureen. I'm so happy to be here.

Maureen: We've been having internet conversations for a while, so it's nice to actually see your face and talk to you. One of my favorite posts of yours is about the outfits you're too afraid to wear. I love how you bring awareness to that feeling—when you're excited to wear something authentic, you have all the right pieces, but it just doesn't feel quite right once it's on. You end up changing into something else. Could you share more about that post and what initially drew you to those outfits?

Sienna: Yes, absolutely. That post came from a moment when I was getting dressed for my niece’s birthday party. I don’t have kids, so I was already feeling a little unsure about what to wear to something like that. I wanted to feel like myself but still fit in. I put together an outfit with a floral dress layered under a sweater and over jeans—pieces I’ve owned for years. I loved how it looked in the mirror. But the moment I thought about walking out the door, a flood of insecurity hit me. What will people think? Will I be taken seriously? Which is wild because it's a toddler’s birthday party. But the voice of doubt was loud. And that’s what made me write that post. I realized I already owned my dream wardrobe, but I didn’t always have the confidence to wear it. And the response to the post made me realize so many people feel the same way. That alone gave me the push to actually wear one of those outfits out.

Maureen: Do you think it was sharing that post online that changed how you felt about those outfits?

Sienna: I think it helped, yes. I wasn’t posting it to get validation, but seeing how many people resonated with the experience reminded me that people aren’t scrutinizing me the way I imagine. That realization helped ground me. It’s not that the outfit is wrong—it’s just fear. If I want to show up in a way that feels true to me, I have to push past that fear. And it's not easy. I’ve only worn one of the outfits from that post, but it’s a start.

Maureen: I have a theory I’d love to hear your take on. Do you think we’re drawn to these outfits because they’re more expressive or editorial, which makes them harder to wear? Like we’re asserting something about ourselves that feels bold or different from what’s around us?

Sienna: I think you're really hitting the nail on the head because I think most of us here do love fashion or style or something about getting dressed. Otherwise, I think we wouldn't be here. But then it is scary to go out into that real world and, and kind of say to the world, yes, I actually am interested in this, or this is something that I actually enjoy doing. It's kind of really putting yourself out there because. If you go out and people think, oh, she put no effort into her outfit, then I don't care if they judge me, right? But it's scarier if they think, she tried and came up with that?

But it's scarier if they think, she tried and came up with that?

I think the other piece is, there's something about to like, when I'm alone in my room, and I think about outfits I love, I do like when they're different. And I do like when they stand out. But then That is also really hard because in the, you know, in my real life, I'm a pretty introverted person. Like I don't love a lot of attention. So it's tough.

Maureen: This is a really big question, but what are you afraid of? I'm asking myself too, right? I think you, you got pretty close with the idea of It's, it's harder when I've actually tried. It's more vulnerable than when I didn't try. Maybe that's why everyone's so obsessed with looking effortless?

Sienna: That's actually such a good point. Yeah. I do think that is a huge part of it. Like I even think about, you know, other things in, in my life, like whether it's career or sports or things like that. It's kind of like when you're just starting out and there's no. Expectation that you should be good at it. It's okay if you fail, but. It's like if once you go farther and you've put in that work to get better, if you still fail, that's a lot harder to deal with.

Maureen: I'd love to transition then to talking about the Bronze Edit. I feel some pressure as someone writing about style online, I feel like I should be pushing myself a little bit further, be a little bit more expressive or, I should be trying a little bit harder. Is that something that crosses your mind ever with The Bronze Edit?

Sienna: That's a really good question. I think a couple of things. I think the one next almost negative that I've noticed is that—and I really fight this—I repeat the same outfits a lot. I have a couple of sweaters, a couple of pairs of jeans that without fail, I will wear every week. Maybe I wear like a different belt, but it's basically the same outfit. And I think there is sometimes this sense of guilt that I feel when I post the same thing over and over again, even though that's so normal in real life. It's almost like, okay, is this super boring for people? Because I literally wore this outfit last week and the week before and the week before. I consciously don't let me stop, like stop me from wearing those outfits because I love them, they're comfortable. I'm just gonna wear them.

A very positive thing that has come out of it is that It's sort of giving me more confidence to try new things. I'm not at a point where I feel pressure to try and be more experimental. I have found it's actually been kind of a, a positive, um, effect to sort of say like, yes, you can try new things. If it doesn't work out, then that's probably a really fun thing to write about as well. It's been just such a natural organic thing. And I think you had posted something recently about like sort of the difference between Instagram and Substack. I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way.

I don't think I will ever be someone who is regularly posting on Instagram. I just don't think that could work for me and my personality. That would be a lot of pressure to be coming up with these super cool outfits all the time. Whereas with Substack, if my outfits are boring, then I can write about how my outfits are boring and work through things that way.

Maureen: Yeah, I would love to talk about this more because I had this thought the other day and I want to make the disclaimer that I think that Substack is a social media platform just like any other. The thing that I like about Substack is that there is long form content and so inherently that means that we aren't trying to make every little thing a sound bite that you can just digest in like a second. The process of trying to write my little Instagram bio was an absolute headache because everything that I write is really nuanced. And I can say something that can be completely contradictory to something else, and I hold space for both. A lot of writers on Substack do that and that's the benefit of a long form narrative is that you can actually get into the meat of something.

Maybe that's why I like YouTube so much too — you can go so much deeper with long-form. Then on Instagram, I tried to promote this podcast, which doesn’t come naturally to me. Instead of putting up clips, I thought I had to make videos of myself putting on clothes.

And I didn’t like it. It’s not what I want to do, so I only made two videos. But I had a moment where I thought, “Why am I trying to sell my personal identity and style?” That’s not what I do on Substack. I don’t know how you feel about that, because your platform is very much about your personal style, but it’s more nuanced. It’s about the experience.

Sienna: Yeah, I think that’s true. For me, it’s rarely about the outfit or even the clothes themselves. Half the time, I forget to link what I’m wearing and then think, “Okay, maybe that’s annoying,” but it’s never really about saying, “Here’s a cool outfit I put together, you should copy it.” It’s about how I got there, how I felt. Honestly, half the time I’m just working through things in real time as I write — writing helps me process. That’s so different from Instagram, where it’s more about the visual — do I like the outfit or not? And that’s fine; I love using Instagram for inspiration. But for me, personally, I don’t think I could handle the pressure. It doesn’t fit my personality, and that’s okay. It’s not a moral judgment. It’s just not what I’m trying to do.

Maureen: I love everything you just said. One thing I enjoy about going back to Instagram is seeing so many outfits I haven’t seen elsewhere — not on Pinterest or Substack. There’s so much diversity in bodies and personal styles, which can be overwhelming, but also really refreshing.

Your posts have some of the best inspiration. You pull from Instagram, and when I see your Substack posts, it gives me a richer experience — seeing it outside the Instagram format. It’s nice to have different platforms to have different types of conversations. That’s really what it comes down to what kind of conversation do I want to have? How do I want to engage with my clothes? What’s the best tool or platform for that?

Sienna: Exactly.

Maureen: It can be kind of analytical.

Sienna: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Each platform allows a different kind of conversation. Even with TikTok — I love it for more in-depth styling tips. There are creators I follow who break down silhouettes and shapes, very similar to how I use YouTube. But I don’t go to TikTok for inspiration the same way I do Instagram.

Maureen: Yeah.

Sienna: I love that they’re all different. If they weren’t, it would be overwhelming — or boring — to see the same thing everywhere.

Maureen: That’s so interesting because I don’t use TikTok, but when we link from Substack to other platforms in a specific way, I start to see the purpose of each.

Sienna: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: Like this morning, Devon Rule — the writer of Brand Panic — posted about Quince. I won’t go into the details, but she linked to a TikTok she made a couple years ago showing how to find 100% cashmere on eBay in the right size, shape, and so on. And I thought, “Wow, I really needed this.” That video format worked better than if it had been written. So I like having all these different platforms. I just hope they continue to be different. My worst nightmare is if they all start to look the same.

Sienna: Yeah, exactly. I totally agree.

Maureen: I love having this conversation, and I hope it’s helpful for listeners. So many people on Substack — including us — are both writing and consuming other people’s content. It feels important to talk about how we’re engaging with the platform.

Sienna: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: There’s a smaller gap between creator and audience on Substack — at least right now. I don’t have sponsors, I don’t do ad reads. I’m just someone who wants to talk about style. I show my actual clothes. So it’s worth discussing how we’re experiencing the platform — because we’re all in it together, watching it evolve. I don’t know what you think about that.

Sienna: It genuinely feels like a community of people I’m making friends with. That’s what Substack feels like for me. When I post, I’m not thinking about broadcasting to an audience. I’m thinking, “I’m putting this out there,” and when comments come in, it’s a conversation. I’ve never built a big platform on Instagram or TikTok, but Substack just feels different. And I really hope it stays that way.

Maureen: I keep wanting to make that disclaimer too, but then I remind myself to just enjoy what’s working right now and deal with the rest later.

Sienna: Exactly.

Maureen: I hope that by having real conversations and continuing to comment and engage, we can build some kind of resilience — something that lasts even if the platform changes. That we can keep creating what we want to experience. I’m realistic that some things will be out of our control.

Sienna: Yeah.

Maureen: Okay, let’s shift and talk more specifically about your personal style. I like to ask every guest a tricky question: How do you decide what to buy and where? I know we talked about having the pieces but struggling to wear them — but what about the other side? How do you decide what not to buy?

Sienna: That’s such a good question. For me, that’s changed a lot over the past few years. And there are still habits I fall into sometimes. Once I became an adult and had to dress for real things — like conferences — my shopping started revolving around specific events.

I don’t naturally gravitate toward professional styles, so I’d go shopping last-minute before a trade show or a vacation and pick clothes that were my idea of what I “should” wear. Not what I wanted to wear. That led to a closet full of things I didn’t love. Often physically uncomfortable because I’d tell myself, “It’s just for one night.”

So the first change I made was to stop panic-buying. I try to avoid thinking of clothes as single-use for a specific situation. I now look at my wardrobe holistically. If I want something new, I think about what I already have — what it pairs with. I read somewhere that if you love a piece but need to buy three other things to wear it, it probably doesn’t fit your closet. That stuck with me. The other big change is how I prioritize how I feel — physically and emotionally — when I choose what to wear or buy. I have almost no tolerance for uncomfortable clothes anymore. Something shifted when I turned 35. I decided I’m not wearing tight pants or tight shirts. I just can’t do it.

That’s made me pickier. If I try something on and it doesn’t feel good, I don’t buy it. That’s helped a lot with getting dressed in the morning. I don’t have a set process, but I’ve noticed the first thing I think is: how do I feel? Am I bloated? Do I want to be in sweatpants? Okay — I’ll grab my most comfortable jeans. I start with how I feel and build from there.

Now that I’ve been doing that for a while and building a closet around it, I realize I actually have outfits for things I used to panic-shop for. I feel like myself, I’m comfortable and confident, and I probably show up better because of it.

Maureen: I love that, and I love how it’s changed your relationship with your wardrobe. I’d love to get more specific — are there any garments you’ve bought recently with that mindset that felt distinctly different from your old habits?

Sienna: Definitely. Right now I’m wearing trousers, not jeans — which is kind of shocking for me. I’m also working hard to let go of the number on the label and focus on how clothes feel.

I used to buy the smallest size I could physically fit into because I thought that meant it fit. Now, I’ll try something on, like these pants — I tried a size down and yeah, they closed. But I thought, “If I have a big meal, they’ll get tight. That’s annoying.” So I sized up. I was lucky I had that option — that’s not always the case — but I did, and now I want to wear these pants every day. I like how they look and they’re comfortable.

That shift is showing up in all my recent purchases. I used to own pieces I liked the look of, but when it came time to wear them, I’d think, “I don’t want to be squeezed into that all day.” So I wouldn’t wear them. They’d just sit in my closet. Now, comfort is a non-negotiable, and that’s made a huge difference.

Maureen: I appreciate you sharing that. There’s such a pervasive idea that if you can size down, you should.

Sienna: Totally.

Maureen: I’ve had that happen recently — trying something on and thinking, “This fits.” Then someone says, “Oh, you could size down.” I don’t think they mean anything by it, but it still reinforces that mindset.

Sienna: Yeah!

Maureen: We can wear whatever size we want, and just because something fits smaller doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. I was looking at a picture of myself in my favorite jeans and heard that voice in my head say, “They look kind of big. Is that flattering?” That voice is still there. But I’ve made a choice — I prioritize my physical comfort. If that means my pants aren’t skin-tight, so be it. I’d rather someone think they’re too big than feel miserable all day.

Sienna: Exactly. There’s no right or wrong. You just make the choice that works for you. I’ve also had to stop comparing how something looks on the model online versus how it fits me.

Maureen: Yes!

Sienna: Straight-leg jeans are a great example. I’d buy a pair marketed as straight-leg, put them on, and think, “This feels like a skinny jean.” The look just wasn’t there.

It’s the same with sizing up — maybe it doesn’t look like it was “meant” to, but maybe I prefer that relaxed, effortless vibe. I’ve started thinking: just because a brand shows it a certain way doesn’t mean I have to wear it that way. I get to choose what works for me. That’s easier said than done, though.

Maureen: Yeah, we’re all works in progress. I had a question earlier, but I lost it — maybe it’ll come back.

Sienna: It’ll come back.

Maureen: Let’s talk about your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases?

Sienna: I think so. I’ve always liked getting dressed and playing with style. Not necessarily fashion — I don’t follow designers closely or always keep up with trends. But as a kid, I’d change outfits three times a day. I’d say, “Now I feel like this,” and go change again. That’s always been me.

In high school, music became a big influence. Both of my parents were musicians, and my brother is one now. A lot of my friends were in bands — let’s call it “light metal” — and I went through a kind of alternative phase. Not full goth or emo, but I wore black cargo pants with strings and wide legs — I wish I still had them. They had that one “weird” detail, which I still love today. I don’t like bright colors or patterns, but I like clothes with interesting elements. That’s still my style now — just a little more subtle.

The older I get, the more I try to bring that back in. I lost it a bit in my twenties, maybe trying to fit in. Now I’m consciously reclaiming it — whether it’s a studded belt or just a vibe. My style is more muted, but the essence is still there.

Maureen: I’d love to hear more about how you’ve approached bringing your full self and style into workwear. How do you balance that now?

Sienna: Great question. First, I’ll say I’m fortunate — I work in a casual environment. I can wear jeans and a T-shirt every day and it’s totally fine, so this doesn’t come up daily, which I actually really like.

But sometimes I have professional events — and those are my least favorite. I’d describe my style as casual, so it always feels like I have to stray from my comfort zone. What I’ve started doing is thinking in terms of silhouette: what shapes and proportions do I like? Can I recreate that with more “professional” pieces?

For example, I love wide-leg jeans. Maybe I can’t wear jeans, but I can wear wide-leg trousers. That relaxed silhouette still feels like me. I’ll pair them with something more elevated on top, but in a shape or fabric that’s still in line with my style.

I’m definitely still figuring it out. For instance, I really don’t like button-up shirts. I don’t like how I look in them — they feel too tailored, too formal. I feel like I’m wearing someone else’s clothes. So I’ve been finding alternatives, like T-shirts in elevated fabrics, something silky or structured. Things that read a little more dressed up but still feel like me. And honestly, even if I lean a little too casual, I’ve noticed I show up more confidently when I feel like myself. That has a bigger impact than the “correctness” of the outfit. People don’t remember if my sweater was simple — they remember how I carried myself.

People don’t remember if my sweater was simple — they remember how I carried myself.

Maureen: That’s a powerful insight. Do you think dressing in what you thought others expected had an effect on how you showed up before?

Sienna: Totally. It amplified my imposter syndrome. I’d already be thinking, “I’m not smart enough to be here,” and then I’d be wearing clothes that didn’t feel like me. I felt like an imposter in what I was wearing too. Now, if I’m in an outfit that has even a small piece of something I wear every day — like a belt I love or a familiar shape — it grounds me. I still get nervous, but at least I’m not wearing someone else’s clothes. That makes a big difference.

I’d rather be remembered as the woman who was a bit casual but confident and capable, than the one who wore the “right” outfit and didn’t speak up.

I’d already be thinking, “I’m not smart enough to be here,” and then I’d be wearing clothes that didn’t feel like me. I felt like an imposter in what I was wearing too.

Maureen: You just reminded me what I forgot earlier — straight-leg jeans are a lie.

Sienna: Yes! There’s not a jean that looks “straight” on me. They all turn into skinny jeans. It’s just not happening.

Maureen: Same. My thighs make that silhouette impossible. That’s why I like wide-leg jeans — it’s the closest I can get to that look.

Sienna: Exactly.

Maureen: I also love your idea about thinking in silhouettes. You can keep the same silhouette and just tweak the materials or styling to elevate it. I once saw a blogger say instead of adding a blazer to “professionalize” an outfit, start with a versatile pair of pants that can go both ways — dress up or down.

Sienna: Yes.

Maureen: I want to apply that not to workwear, but to something I’m actually struggling with — what to wear to a bridal shower. Most of my clothes are white or light denim, and I imagine everyone will be in coordinated mini skirts and heels. That’s not my style at all.

Sienna: Yeah.

Maureen: Maybe I just wear jeans — wide-leg, of course — and pair them with a heel instead of sneakers. But if you have any suggestions...

Sienna: I totally get that. It’s so relatable. Whether it’s a bridal shower or something else, we want to fit in. We picture everyone dressed a certain way and worry we’ll stand out.

But here’s what I try to remind myself: If I knew someone with a really cool, unique style, and they showed up to an event dressed like themselves, I’d admire them. I wouldn’t think, “Wow, they’re underdressed.” I’d think, “They’re confident and interesting.” I try to apply that to myself.

There’s a difference between being appropriate — like, maybe don’t wear white to a bridal shower — and trying to match everyone else’s style. If mini skirts and heels aren’t your thing, they’re not going to feel good no matter what. Instead, maybe wear your wide-leg jeans with a dressier top or a heel — something small that signals the occasion, without abandoning your style.

Maureen: And without getting too deep, I think it’s worth asking ourselves: why do I feel like I can’t show up as my full self at this event?

Sienna: Yep.

Maureen: I want to challenge that feeling before I run to the mall and buy something. I do have an idea — maybe a shirt dress in a subtle stripe, something I’d actually wear again. Something I could style over wide-leg pants for this or another occasion.

Sienna: Yeah.

Maureen: I probably will buy something, but only because I’ve identified a gap in my wardrobe — I don’t really have dresses. I’d like to own one. But if I’m shopping from a place of fear — thinking I won’t be accepted as I am — even the thing I buy might carry that energy with it.

Sienna: Totally. And if you’re buying something to fit in with one specific group, chances are that group isn’t who you spend most of your time with. So you probably won’t wear it again.

That’s been a shift for me too — instead of buying something new for every unique scenario, I ask: how can I modify what I already have? Or buy something versatile that fits into the rest of my life too.

And it’s not about saying, “I should never buy anything new.” Sometimes you do have a real gap. There’s nothing wrong with that. The key is buying with intention instead of fear — and making sure it’s not a single-use purchase.

Maureen: Totally. And going back to your earlier point — when someone shows up fully as themselves, even if it’s different from me, I love that. Like, I love how you layer a short sleeve T-shirt over a mesh lace top. It’s not my personal aesthetic, but you look so cool and comfortable doing it.

Sienna: Exactly.

Maureen: I think getting older helps us separate ourselves from the group and from the need to match everyone. When I was 19, group identity was a necessity — developmentally. But now, I can see someone wearing something totally different from me and think, “That’s so them,” and not feel the need to replicate it.

Sienna: Yeah.

Maureen: That’s one of my favorite things about aging. I can really celebrate people for who they are and feel no pressure to make their look my look.

Sienna: Yes. And it ties into something I’ve been thinking about — how much our style is shaped by our life story. I’m trying to bring back parts of how I dressed as a teenager because that felt authentic to me, and I lost it somewhere along the way.

Everything I wear now — it’s the result of everything I’ve lived. Same for everyone else. That’s why I love style. Even if we’re not doing it consciously, we’re expressing something. Even if you’re in sweatpants and a hoodie, that’s saying something.

Getting older helps us shed some of that need to conform. We start to want to be different — or at least authentic. And that’s a really good place to be.

Maureen: We’re almost out of time, and I want to ask you my favorite question: if someone is trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic, what advice would you give?

Sienna: First, learn to pay attention to how you actually feel in your clothes. When you put something on, all these thoughts will come up — “Do I look too big?” “Does this make me look [insert thing]?” Let those run their course. Then ask yourself: do I like this?

Do I feel something good when I look in the mirror? It sounds simple, but I used to skip that question entirely.

Second, think about where your desires are coming from. If you want a piece that shapes your body a certain way, that’s fine. But ask: is that coming from me or from an external pressure? There’s no right answer, but knowing the source helps.

When I started prioritizing pieces I loved — even if they were a little more expensive — I ended up with fewer things but a closet I actually wanted to wear.

Maureen: That’s so helpful. And even if you do “mess up,” it’s just data.

Sienna: Exactly. You’re learning. I’ve bought things recently that I’m already questioning. That doesn’t mean you failed — it’s just part of the process.

Maureen: I’d love to build on what you said about figuring out whether a choice is coming from within. One tip is to turn off your thinking brain and tune into your feeling body. Your body might communicate something your thoughts won’t.

Like, if you look in the mirror and have to force yourself to smile, your body’s telling you something. Even if your brain is saying, “This is cute,” your face might say otherwise.

Sienna: That’s so true. I remember one of your posts where you tried on a few different T-shirts. I didn’t even have to read what you wrote — the one that lit you up was obvious in the photo.

Maureen: That’s exactly what I hope to show with Intuitive Style — how paying attention to how you feel in clothes can be really simple but also really powerful. We just haven’t been taught how to listen to our bodies.

Sienna: No.

Maureen: And — not to get too political — but in a capitalist culture, especially in America, it’s not in the system’s interest for people to listen to their bodies. If your job or life requires you to ignore physical discomfort to stay productive, then tuning in becomes a threat.

Sienna: Yep. I totally agree.

Maureen: Sorry, I didn’t mean to have the last word.

Sienna: No, this has been such a cool conversation. I love how we can bounce ideas off each other and dig deeper.

Maureen: Same. I love reading your posts — I feel like we’re style foils. You’re like the goth version and I’m the preppy version — even though I don’t love that word.

Sienna: Yeah.

Maureen: We share similar silhouettes but express them so differently. It’s fun to be inspired by someone who’s similar and different.

Sienna: Exactly. 100%.

Maureen: For anyone listening, where can they find you online?

Sienna: Honestly, I’m not very active on Instagram. I think I technically have one, but I’m barely on it. The best place is my Substack — The Bronze Edit. That’s where I post whatever’s on my mind and share this ongoing journey.

Maureen: Perfect. I’ll include the link in the show notes. Thank you so much.

Sienna: Thank you, Maureen.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Sienna Reid, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

This week’s guest is Talía Cu, writer of Latin Zine by Talía Cu and veteran fashion journalist. She’s focused on introducing the world to cool designers and pieces with soul, sourced from the diverse cultures within Latin America. In our episode, we cover everything from her perspective on Latin American fashion’s influence on the global style scene, to how she personally decides what to buy and wear. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Talía Cu, writer of Latin Zine. Talia is a Mexican fashion journalist who has worked for esteemed publications including Vogue Mexico and Latin America. As a fashion illustrator for luxury brands like Fendi and Bumble, she is currently a cool hunter of Latin American brands. Her Substack newsletter showcases her exquisite eye for emerging talent, hidden gems, and one-of-a-kind artisanal fashion. Talia, welcome to the show.

Talía: Thank you, I'm really excited because it's my first podcast interview in English.

Maureen: I'm sure it's going to be fantastic. Thank you for trusting me with this process. I'm excited to talk with you and learn more about you, your experience, and your personal style. For anyone who hasn't interacted with Latin Zine yet, would you share a bit more about your column?

Talía: Of course.

Latin Zine by Talía Cu

is a newsletter dedicated to understanding fashion from a Latin American perspective. It's a place to discover new fashion stories and hidden gems—brands you don't typically see in mainstream media.

Maureen: I love that your work introduces us to new brands. Many people are interested in connecting to style on a personal level. Could you speak more to the global impact of Latin American brands? How is Latin American fashion shaping global style trends?

Talía: I wrote about this in the beginning of my newsletter. I don’t like to generalize Latin America because each country is so different. Designers often have to compensate for things like lack of materials, so they create amazing work with what's available. The whole region has a wonderful creative spirit. Globally, there's growing appreciation for artisanal pieces and sustainable practices, and Latin America is at the forefront of that.

Maureen: I was hoping to talk more about sustainability. You write about fashion discovery, which can lead to shopping. But how do we appreciate and engage with fashion without overconsuming?

Talía: That’s a big reason I created the newsletter. I found so many beautiful things and wanted to collect them somewhere. I do write about shopping, but I also share designers’ stories so there's more context to what you’re purchasing. I like to buy directly from designers or brands I've followed for a while and believe in their methods or practices. I usually don’t buy on impulse. I think carefully and sometimes wait for the right piece that resonates with me. I’m also building a small archive of Latin American designers—pieces I may not wear daily but that are meaningful or significant.

Maureen: Even though your column isn’t personal style, or would you describe it that way?

Talía: Not exactly, but I do look at Latin American fashion from my own point of view. It’s about the people I meet, the things that catch my eye, and what I discover. I've been covering Latin American fashion for years, but I’m always finding new designers and stories, and I share them as I go.

Maureen: I love the way you balance discovery and perspective without it becoming strictly personal style. There's a clear intentionality and playfulness to your work. Let’s talk a bit about your own personal style. I'm interested in why people wear what they wear—how do you decide what to buy and wear, especially since you’re constantly seeing cool brands?

Talía: Everything for me is intuitive. When I go into a shop, something needs to grab my attention—maybe it’s a color or pattern. I also care about the stories behind the pieces. Like, if I know a brand has an interesting upcycling process, I want something from them. One of my favorite things is when someone compliments a piece and I get to tell them it’s from a Costa Rican designer who upcycles leather. Fashion becomes a conversation.

Maureen: That’s beautiful. Your clothing becomes a part of your story and a way to engage with others.

Talía: Yes, I love talking about it.

Maureen: Okay, this is something I struggle with. There's a brand called Wray NYC that’s size-inclusive and editorial, and they’re going out of business. My first instinct was to buy everything. How do you handle moments like that—when you want to support a brand but also make sure what you buy is actually useful or wearable?

Talía: I’d say I have two categories: pieces I wear daily and curated archive pieces I only wear on special occasions. For daily wear, I buy things like printed mesh tops from Colombian brands that I wear often. I try to balance both—special pieces and practical items.

Maureen: That’s a cool way to approach shopping. I always feel like something has to be utilitarian for me to want to buy it. But fashion can also be conceptual or artistic.

Talía: Exactly.

Maureen: Let’s talk about how body awareness influences the way you dress. Are there certain textures, fits, or styles you gravitate toward based on how they make you feel?

Talía: Yes, especially as a woman with a larger chest, I notice many Latin American designers don’t make tops that fit me well. The models they show often have smaller chests, and I wonder how the clothes would actually look on me. That’s why I don’t love shopping online—I need to try things on. I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself.

I also have PCOS, and for a while, my weight was fluctuating, which made me more self-aware. During that time, I started wearing more pastels. I think it made me feel soft and loving toward myself.

Maureen: That’s really beautiful. I've gone through body changes too, and it’s true—our relationship with clothing can shift with our relationship to our bodies. Some silhouettes I used to love just don’t work for me anymore, and that’s okay.

Talía: Yes, I'm 35, and I’ve been thinking about how many independent designers seem to focus more on people in their twenties. I love what they create, but sometimes I see things like mini skirts and wonder—can I still wear that? Even if it’s not super short, I still question if I’ve passed the age for it, or if I’m just overthinking. I don’t feel as comfortable in those pieces as I did in my twenties, and I’m still processing what that means for me.

Maureen: Can I ask—have you tried one on?

Talía: Yes.

Maureen: How did you feel?

Talía: I felt a bit uncomfortable. I kept wondering if I was showing too much leg.

Maureen: I totally get that. I’m all about self-compassion, so if that’s how you feel, that’s okay. You don’t need to rush into anything. I’ve been thinking about this too. I’m almost 30, so I feel like I could still get away with a mini skirt, but I’m married and live in the suburbs, and the idea just doesn’t appeal to me. I’d rather wear shorts—they’re more comfortable, and I don’t have to worry about anything riding up or flashing someone. But I think if wearing one feels authentic to you, go for it. And if it doesn’t, that’s okay too.

Talía: Exactly. That’s true.

Maureen: That’s where I’m at with it.

Talía: I’d love to wear tights underneath, but it’s so warm where I live, so that’s not really an option. Maybe wearing shorts underneath would make me feel more comfortable. I hadn’t thought of that.

Maureen: Yeah, I think a little bike short could help.

Talía: Yeah, maybe.

Maureen: Let’s go back to your style evolution. Have you had any memorable phases?

Talía: When I was 19, I was obsessed with collecting earrings. There was a shop in my hometown that sold beads from around the world, and I was constantly buying jewelry. Then I went through a phase of buying weird tights online from UK brands—like ones with tattoo prints. In my early 20s, I wore a lot of pink and fuchsia, but a boy I liked told me it looked childish, so I switched to wearing black. I’m sad I let that influence me. Now, I’m really into rings, brooches, and necklaces. My hair also affects my style—since changing it recently, some things don’t look the same on me.

Maureen: Yeah, for people listening, how would you describe your current hairstyle? It’s very cool.

Talía: It's like half blonde and half copper.

Maureen: And what was your most recent hairstyle before this?

Talía: I tried a bit of pink with brunette. I've always had really dark eyebrows, that's my natural color. I started with a little pink and then decided I wanted something completely different. This is probably the most drastic change I’ve had.

Maureen: I love that. As you said earlier, when I asked how you decide what to buy or wear, it sounds like you have such an intuitive approach. You're in your heart rather than your head when making choices. As someone super analytical, I tend to overthink everything. How do you stay light and in tune with yourself when shopping or deciding on hair and accessories?

Talía: I wouldn’t say it’s always practical. My best friend gets texts from me at least once a month saying I don’t have anything to wear with something I just bought. She always says, “You need a leather jacket.” I do buy basics for function, but I’m not great with practicality.

Maureen: So you're more of a magpie—you go for color, print, and shiny pieces.

Talía: Yes. I’m very selective with what I buy and like, but then I have to think about the practical side. There’s a Mexican brand that sells basics like jeans and tank tops. I go to them when I need staples. But usually, I buy something because it grabs my attention—like pants I just feel I need in my closet. I’ll figure out how to wear them later.

Maureen: What’s your process for getting dressed?

Talía: For my day-to-day, I teach fashion journalism, so I have certain outfits for school—comfortable pieces like jeans or trousers. Then I have event outfits. There are also those last-minute combinations that surprisingly work. Day to day, I usually repeat outfits I know work well together.

Maureen: So you have uniforms and go-to’s that just happen to be more expressive than my jeans-and-T-shirt look.

Talía: Maybe.

Maureen: What’s exciting you in fashion today?

Talía: I’m really excited that people are finding my newsletter and open to discovering designers outside the norm. Some people send me pictures saying they bought from a brand I featured. I love that. I never expected to have that kind of reach. Seeing people find and love these brands as much as I do is amazing. I’m excited about the power of sharing stories, and how Substack is connecting us globally.

Maureen: Absolutely. From my perspective as an American, it feels like the perfect time to support designers outside the U.S., not out of a lack of patriotism, but out of respect and fairness. I’m excited by your work because it gives access to so many brands I wouldn’t have otherwise discovered. I haven’t bought anything yet—last month’s budget was tight—but now when I look for a piece of jewelry or a statement item, I have this whole new resource.

Talía: Yes. That’s what excites me too. People in the U.S. are visiting designers in Mexico City or purchasing from them, and they’re getting pieces that are real conversation starters. You get to wear something unique, and when someone asks about it, you can share the story behind the brand—their process, their mission. That kind of storytelling fuels me.

Maureen: That ties so beautifully back to the idea of clothing as conversation. So what advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic?

Talía: Work on tuning into your intuition—it’s difficult, but worth it. I’ve only recently learned to listen to mine. Also, research the brand and ask questions. We’re used to buying things just because they look nice, but it’s more meaningful to learn about who made it, how it was made, and why. You gain context and maybe even learn something fascinating about a designer’s process.

Maureen: Can you share a recent example of a piece you bought or considered because the process or story behind it was special?

Talía: There’s a bag brand I’ll be sharing soon that’s based in a smaller state in Mexico. They make bags from leather scraps. It’s two women running the brand, and they’re one of the few fashion brands in that state. I’ve followed them for a few years and noticed their designs evolving. Now I feel more drawn to purchasing from them. I think they’re finding their voice, and I’d love to own something from this moment in their journey.

Maureen: I love that. We can follow a brand over time and appreciate them without needing to buy immediately. We can grow with them, see where they go, and decide if it resonates later. That’s such a beautiful example of a slow fashion mindset.

Talía: Yes, of course. Bringing awareness to these designers, even without buying right away, is valuable. Sharing them with others still makes a difference.

Maureen: Absolutely. Thank you. This was really fun. Where can listeners find you?

Talía: Thank you, Maureen. It was so fun talking to you—I love your perspective on fashion and style. You can find me on my Substack at Talía Cu and on Instagram @taliacu.

Maureen: We’ll include the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and knowledge of Latin fashion. I can’t wait to keep following your posts and eventually shop from these brands. Thanks for coming on.

Talía: Thank you, Maureen.

Did you know new episodes of Intuitive Style drop weekly on Fridays? Subscribe so you don’t miss Fanny Adams, Jennifer Cook and more special guests in upcoming weeks!

Today’s guest is Emily Grady Dodge, writer of Just For Fun. Emily shares exactly how she found THE pants that made the rest of her wardrobe come together, how she finds contentment with her clothes, and her number one tip for anyone struggling with their style. Even though this was our first time meeting, I felt like we’ve known each other all along. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. I’m Maureen Welton. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Emily Grady-Dodge from Just For Fun. She shares about her capsule wardrobe, asks the question, what are you wearing? And shares about how she is generally satisfied with less but better. We love her minimal aesthetic, dry humor, and real life realness. Emily, welcome to the pod.

Emily: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

Maureen: I'm so happy to meet you. I know that we've virtually met through our writing, but it's nice to actually hear your voice and get to know you a little better.

Emily: Oh, thank you.

Maureen: For anyone who hasn't read your Substack column yet, can you describe what Just For Fun is all about?

Emily: Yeah, so I started it a little over a year ago and did not think I would be writing about fashion at all. I thought it would just be more general like lifestyle and motherhood. About two weeks after I wrote the first post, I, for totally separate reasons, decided to jump on the Rule of Five challenge. And then my whole life just sort of funneled itself into caring a lot about clothing again.

Naturally, my Substack just followed suit and I started writing about that. I was having a fun time writing about what I'm wearing, what I was planning on buying, because it was such a limited shopping year for me that everything felt really high stakes. I took every purchase very seriously—except for one, which I did very candidly write about. Just For Fun kind of naturally evolved to be this place where, literally, it's the title. It is just for fun. I'm not trying to make a career out of it. It's an outlet for me. It's something creative to do in my spare time. I do it from my phone. It's very low stakes, but I've had the best time connecting with people in this sort of niche community of like-minded individuals. We’re trying to figure out what we’re wearing to work, to date nights, to the mall with friends. How are we making choices that feel good and that we’re not regretting two months later? That was always a problem for me in the past.

But anyway, long story short, Just For Fun is really about what I'm buying, what I’m really wearing—I’m super honest, big outfit repeater. I love outfit repeating. It's not something to be ashamed about. I just lay it all out there, and it's been interesting. It's very cathartic.

Maureen: Yeah, I love that. It’s really fun to read your posts, and I always love your outfit pictures too. They always look really polished, but at the same time, they feel very real. Your descriptions go into the things you might not see in the image. For anyone who isn't familiar with the Rule of Five, could you share a little bit about what that is and why you were drawn to it?

Emily: Yeah, so admittedly, I've never been very driven by sustainability. It's just not something that I feel overly concerned about mainly because I do have like a very naturally small footprint life like Uh, I moved to Jersey city from Brooklyn a few years ago, but I didn't have a car for fifteen years. I do. We do have one car now. Um, we live in an apartment. I have a really small closet with very limited space and just kind of naturally have to have a small wardrobe. Um, so my life choices were never driven by any like, oh, I really, really want to be sustainable. They just happened to be in line with that. Rule of five is very much rooted in sustainability. It came about from a study that said, if you're in this income bracket, you need to slow your roll. People who, in this bracket, if they shifted to only buying five items of clothing a year, we would fix this massive landfill problem that we have with clothing being thrown out at this record pace. And all of the ripple effects that are terrible for the environment because of that.

That is not why I jumped on the rule of five bandwagon. I wish I could say that it was. But it wasn't. I think it's great that it exists for that. But for me, it was like, okay, I just finished the year 2023 of shopping. I kept track of all my purchases. I bought, I think, forty-seven things. By the end of the year, I was already selling half of it on Poshmark or the RealReal or donating it because I didn't even have the bandwidth to resell it. And just really questioning, like, what am I doing? Why do I keep making these terrible choices that even two days later after taking the price tag off, I'm like, did I have amnesia? Why did I buy that? What was going on in my head? Like, this doesn't make sense. So I saw the framework of buy five things new in one year. Renting is okay. Up to four items of secondhand clothing. And that all just felt like really safe to me. I needed somebody else to give me that boundary and to commit myself to it. When I commit to something, I am like a dog with a bone. I knew that I would do it. Like I knew I would stay the course.

Trying [Rule of Five] really changed everything for me. It was such a year of pausing, of reflecting, of figuring out this root cause of why I kept making terrible choices. Um, and how to, I don't think you can ever be perfect or ever completely stop that from happening, but like how to have a better success rate with shopping moving forward. Um, and it was really, really huge for me and I loved writing about it and I loved, um, kind of that safety net when the year ended, I was a little. A little nervous, but also I felt like I was in such a good place, um, in my own head about what I wanted, what my gaps were. What vibe I want out of my wardrobe, how I want to feel when I'm wearing clothes, um, what length pants feel good, um, just all of these things that back in 2023, I was floundering and just grasping at straws and it wasn't working.

There's a great Substack called Rule of Five by the woman who sort of outlined this whole idea. Her name's Tiffanie Darke. I highly recommend checking that out. My reasons of approaching it were a little different than the intent, I think.

Maureen: That's so profound though, that idea that there's an intrinsic benefit to consuming less, or there can be.

Emily: Right.

Maureen: Personally, I would love to see people consuming less and be happy with fewer things because that is sustainable, but I love when we can exemplify that wanting less and being satisfied with less isn't a bad thing and it's actually freeing and helpful. And fun in its own way.

Maybe could you speak a little bit more to how—or any moments in time when you realized like, oh, this is really good for me? This is really helping my style or helping me decide what I actually want?

Emily: Yeah, this is gonna sound a little woo-woo, but bear with me. A few years ago, I saw someone and I loved her outfit, and I had this epiphany where I felt like this woman was 100% operating from a place of 'I am beautiful.' I could tell that the way she was dressed, she felt that way about herself. At that time in my life, I was postpartum, none of my clothes fit, I had a small wardrobe but didn’t love what I had. It struck me that I was not making purchases from a place of believing anything positive about myself. If you don't see yourself in a positive light, any clothing purchase is just a Band-Aid on a bullet wound. Like it's not going to get the job done and you're just scrambling for something that's going to make you feel better. But that is not what's going to make you feel better. The answer is not in clothing.

When I had this moment of seeing this woman, and just the way she carried herself and what she was wearing. I thought I really need to work on myself and I'm not going to let myself shop until I believe I'm beautiful and worthy of having a wardrobe that reflects that. And that was hard for me at first. Like I was like, oof, like that feels big. That feels scary. That feels like, no, let me just keep shopping at J.Crew when they have a 40% off sale. I got to this place where I was like, if I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy? And it was a really different answer than what I was just kind of being drawn to buying without doing that train of thought. And I bought this pair of pants, and I wrote about this when I did a recent post about workwear. I bought this pair of pants on the RealReal, and when I put them on, I was like, holy, can I swear?

If I believed I was beautiful, what would I buy?

Maureen: Yeah, go for it.

Emily: I was like, holy s**t. Like, where have these pants been all my life? I put them on and I was like, bury me in these pants. This is how I wanna feel all the time. This is my new metric. If what I’m putting on doesn’t make me feel like this, then I’m not putting it on. So if that means wearing the same outfit to every single work function, that’s what I’m going to do. Honestly, I did that. Like, I was wearing the same... I’ve worn the same pair of pants to everything. It’s crazy. And my boss, who has a very good eye for design, will be like, oh, I love those pants. And I just laughed at myself because I’m like, I’ve worn them five times in the last five times. You also told me that you loved them. Um, but I just had this epiphany with these pants. They had a really interesting cut. Um, not anything that I had worn before. I felt like they were really flattering. They were really comfortable. Um, and I know flattering has become sort of a... hard to talk about complicated word. I still, you know, maybe flattering isn’t the right word, but I do like when clothes are flattering, I’ll just say it.

Maureen: Can I just put it out there? Me too. Me too. This is a safe space. Like, we, honestly, to me, intuitive style is non-judgmental. So that doesn’t mean that we try not to be flattering or that we try to be unflattering or that we— it’s not like we need to abolish the word flattering entirely. It’s like whatever we bring that day, that moment, that minute. We, we acknowledge that feeling or whatever, however our head is at and we just say, that’s okay. That’s okay. It’s a nonjudgmental approach, rather than a specifically defined thing. So I just wanted to clarify that.

Emily: And I think also, thank you for saying that because sometimes I need to hear someone else say it. Um, I think also flattering can carry this other part, which is when you’re out in the world, you don’t feel like you have to adjust your own body. Like you don’t have to suck in. You don’t have to feel like, oh, I can only stand like that, you know, this way for this to look good or, oh, you know, a lot of work events I go to, there’s photographers there because they’re taking candid pictures of the event to, you know, post online later. And it’s like, oh, there’s a photographer over there. Let me suck in. I think when you feel like your clothes are holding you and they’re comfortable and you can move and live your life and like forget that you’re even wearing them. Instead of having to like contort yourself to it, it’s, it’s really the unlock. Like I hate being somewhere where I’m uncomfortable or I’m like, you know, having to readjust or tuck in or... So that’s another thing is that, you know, I really focused on clothing that I could just live my life in that I have this whole list of no’s. Like, when I shop and it’s like, does it have to be tucked in in a specific way? If it does, no. Like, I’m not doing that. I’m not buying a shirt that can only—that has to be re-tucked in every time I pee. I pee all the time. I can’t be redoing my whole outfit every time. Um, so, you know, there’s a lot that goes into your clothing choices that might not just be how they look, but how they operate in your day-to-day too. But now I’m forgetting your original question. Maybe...

Maureen: Oh...

Emily: I answered it. Maybe I didn’t. But those pants, those pants were like a point for me because after that, I really did. I was doing Rule of Five. Um, so that was helping, but even I think without that, I think my shopping, um, like frequency would have slowed down because I’m just not going to find that many things that make me feel that way. And having that metric, it’s like, well, you know... And I, my mom and I have this conversation all the time where she’s like, I don’t know what to buy. I go into the, you know, Ann Taylor and I hate it all. Like, I want to buy something. I want to spend money and I can't find anything I like.

And I do identify with that to a certain extent where it's like... You know, I will think in my head, like, I really, I have this denim shirt from The Gap that's years old and I freaking love it. And every time I wear it, I'm just like, God, I love this shirt. Like, I love this shirt. I wore it yesterday, actually. Every time I wear it, I'm like, what can I get that is going to give me the same feeling as this shirt? Like, I can't just have one shirt that I feel this way about. So then I'll be like, Ooh, maybe I want a white denim shirt. So then I go hunting for this thing that I haven't seen on like reverse-engineering my own wishlist. Oh, I want a white denim shirt, but... You know, everything I find online, I'm like, I don't like the pocket size or whatever, you know, I'm very nitpicky. But I, I think having those, those things in place do kind of keep you from going off the rails. It's like a built-in boundary.

Maureen: I, this is so profound. And the reason I say that is like, I so relate. So first of all, I feel the same way when I shop. Sometimes I really want something and then I'm like, I know that it's not going to level up to what I already own, so... But what I'm hearing in this is different from the kind of attitude of everything in my wardrobe needs to be perfect, right? And I don't think it's that. It's something else. What is this instead? What is this feeling of rightness? Can you describe that in any way? Or like, how do we explain this idea?

Emily: Yeah, I think, you know, the three-word exercise that's so popular, I kind of tried to do that for myself and I don't know if I really encapsulated my vibe down to three words, but one of them was comfortable. And I think like, for me, it doesn't have to be the perfect thing. As long as I feel comfortable in it I'm going to feel so much more confident living my life in that piece of clothing. The fact of the matter is we have to wear clothes. There's no…unless you go live on a nudist colony.

Maureen: Unlikely.

Emily: There's no choice. We have to wear clothes. And so if I have to wear something, like I need it to be comfortable. I need it to be machine washable. I need it to be, um, something that fits in with my lifestyle of a three and a six-year-old. Like, I can't be like, oh, don't touch me because I don't catch up on my pants, you know? Um, so for me, like, I've found sort of tremendous, um, relief in finding other people whose style I really admire who don't look ultra polished all the time that I still think like, wow, that person looks really cool but they also look really comfortable and like, kind of utilitarian and like they could go grocery shopping in this and it wouldn't be ridiculous or go run an errand and it wouldn't look insane. No, I'm in New York City. I live in Jersey City, but I'm in Manhattan all the time. I was in Manhattan earlier today and I saw a lot of, I was people-watching as I was walking around and I saw some really interesting outfits. Um, so not to say that you can't wear something interesting and go to CVS, because certainly you can. [but] When I see people whose style it's like, oh, they're just wearing a button-down and jeans and like flip-flops, but they look really cool. That can be fashionable too. Like I was listening to the podcast Fashion People this morning. And they were talking about all of the creative directors shifting from all of the different design houses. And I don't follow any of that. Like, I don't, I don't know any of that. And it kind of crossed my mind this. Analogy of, um. Like I'm not religious, but I celebrate Christmas. So like I'm a, I'm a secular fashionista. Like… I don't follow the high-fashion news, but I love fashion Substack and I love certain influencers on Instagram. Not all of them, but there's a few that I really like following. And I think the common theme is that everyone that I really admire and really think looks cool and inspiring or it makes me think like, oh, I should try that. I've never worn a scarf like that before or I've never wrapped a t-shirt around my waist and worn it like a belt. Like, I'm going to try that. They all have this through line of being really, yeah, utilitarian. Like this,

Emily: these clothes make sense for my life and I feel good in them. And I've never focused on being like a hot person, like that's never been my objective or aspiration, but when I'm in something that I feel really comfortable lately, and maybe it's 'cause I'm almost forty and I'm like feeling myself and I'm like, I felt kind of hot, like...

Maureen: Wow.

Emily: I feel like I'm in my body. I feel comfortable. I'm like, is this, what is this? What is this feeling? Like, I feel like I'm a grown woman who's, you know, getting s**t done and like wearing a gold necklace and like this thing, which I freaking love.

Maureen: It's cool.

Emily: That's like the fake piercing.

Maureen: It's cool. I like that.

Emily: My, um, now I can't put it back on, but this is like my Dumbo feather, you know, like how he needs his feather to think he can fly. Like when I put this on, I'm like, it doesn't matter what else I'm wearing. Like literally it doesn't matter because this thing makes me feel cool.

Maureen: I love that so much.

Emily: Yeah, my closet is tiny but mighty and the things that I love to wear are like not maybe ultra exciting. It's like, yeah, that Gap denim button down that was like, you know, $30 or something, um, is one of my favorite things to wear and I wear it at least once a week.

Maureen: So going back to this idea of shopping for these things that are just top tier without being perfect, how do you, maybe can you speak about those, those perfect those ideal pants that you have, like, how did you know that they were worth buying online? Sometimes that can be really daunting to do or it doesn't work out. How did you know to click buy?

Emily: I had a lot of criteria when I was looking for those pants because I was starting my workwear collection from scratch at that point, um, I had been relying on Rent the Runway for workwear for years and was sick of it. I still love Rent the Runway. I'm like a huge fan, but I just was tired of the. The like weekly selecting new stuff. I was burnt out. So this was back in 2023. I said, you know, I'm going to get this right. Like, I'm going to figure out what I want. And I knew, you know, I need a pair of black pants. That's what I'm going to start with. And, um, I'm going to kind of build everything out from there once I have that figured out. And I take public transit, so I didn't want anything that would even be close to the ground. So I was like, okay, it needs to be ankle length. Um, I'm allergic to animal fiber. A lot of really high ends were like. Well cut pants like Theory or Events or like the kind of usual suspects for workwear they're always wool. I mean, they look beautiful. I'm sure it's, they last forever and it's great, but like, I can't do it or I break out in hives and not doing that, obviously.

Maureen: Oh!

Emily: So I was like, okay, I need ankle length. I need something that I feel like has a little personality, but I want them to be black. Can't have wool. I don't want to spend a ton of money, so I'm going to do this on The RealReal. Always filter to is it returnable on The RealReal? They do get you with the shipping because you don't get that money back, but I only buy things that are return eligible on The RealReal. I'm gonna just look for black pants every day. I set a saved search for black pants with a few criteria, and looked every day. One day, this pair of pants came up and the white mannequin that they use on The RealReal leaves a lot to be desired. These pants looked kind of like Aladdin pants. I was like, I don't know, but maybe they'll be cool in real life. Maybe they're not as drop crotch as they look on this terrible Photoshop mannequin situation.

I ordered them along with like, I think six other pairs of pants and I was like, I'll just eat the shipping. It's fine. I can return them all. I tried them on and they just worked. They have like a wrap waist with a little buckle in place, so I don't have to wear a belt with it and it worked. I tried it on with my summer sandals that I wear all the time that I have to get resoled, cause I've had them for five years and the toe has like completely worn through. And I tried them on with a pair of boots that I wear all the time in the winter and they looked good with both of those things. Then I tried them on with like a, a sheer knee high with like a black pump. And they look good with those too. And so I was like, okay, like it works with all my shoes, which is, um, one of my weird quirks is that when I go shopping in person, um, which I don't do very often. So it's a kind of an event, but I bring, I bring the left shoe to all of my usual suspect shoes in like a big duffel bag so that I can try on with all of my shoes.

Maureen: Oh my god that’s genius.

Emily: Yeah. And I feel kind of like a psycho. And like, if I ever accidentally left that bag somewhere, I'd be screwed. But, um, I had one of my friends and she was like, what's in your bag? Cause I had this duffel bag with me. She said, what do you have? And I was like, I was like, pants shopping at cost before this and she was like, that does not answer my question.

Maureen: I get you so hard. Everything that you're saying, I would do and have done a version of in the past. We shop the same way.

Emily: Yeah, it's very important to make sure that if you're buying something that it works with your other things. I love the way that these pants made me feel. I loved the cut. I loved that they, they have this like texture, they’re Toteme, which I would not in my budget buy something new from them, but they were like a little over a hundred dollars on The RealReal. They didn't have tags, but they were in pristine condition. I just really, really liked the material. There's, it's like this little nubby kind of texture. I loved the waist detailing, The silhouette was not just like a straightforward work pant. It was like perfection or like lightning in a bottle.

And then from that pair of pants out, I was like, okay, now I need a blazer that I can wear with these. I need shirts that look good with these pants in the summer, in the winter, like I wear them year round. I really like peplum tops because you don't have to futz with tucking in and it looks good, um, just the way that it is. I have a few like sleeveless for the summer peplum shirts that I wear with them and then a sandal and it's like great. And then in the winter, it's perfect with, you know, just whatever shirt, a blazer

Maureen: I just wanna say that all sounds chic as hell. I want to play back some of what I heard too because I think, the way that I understand your style and is that getting dressed every day is relatively easy, but getting to the point that you're at was not necessarily easy.

I think that's really important distinction is that it wasn't that you just happened upon the perfect pair of pants sometimes that happens to like maybe that's what the denim shirt was. But you put in concerted effort up front to buy the right pair of pants according to criteria. And, I mean, it's so real that you tried on six at the same time. Like, I'm doing that right now with some, like, ecru-colored pants. I know that I'm gonna have to try on quite a few pairs to find the right one. And there's legitimate effort and attention to detail that goes into that.

One really key thing I think you're not doing is buying a bunch of okay pants and continuing to search for the right ones. You buy it right first. Is that kind of your general approach to shopping?

Emily: Yeah, yeah, I try to, what's the expression, measure twice, cut once. I try really hard to do that because I don't want to really have to….this sounds contradictory since I write a Substack about it and spend a lot of time kind of thinking and writing about it and talking about what I'm wearing.

But in my day to day, I don't really want to spend that much time thinking about [getting dressed] I want to be able to open my closet and have a few options that I really like and anything will do.

Maureen: Are we the same person? Are we long-lost twins?

Emily: I think that's why we hit it off so instantly on Substack. Like, you know, when you meet someone and you just, like, know that this person thinks like I do.

Maureen: I'd rather do the upfront work and then the day-to-day is easy. All the shoes need to go with the pants. I mean like that's the thing that unlocked my wardrobe for me was like I used to buy cropped pants and I only liked them with very select shoes. And so I have t do this whole mental gymnastics of like, I want to wear sneakers but all my pants are cropped and I don't like sneakers with cropped pants on me. And then when I finally started to buy pants that worked with all of my shoes, it was like the mental energy went from like a thousand to like zero. And it was like, oh. I could have been doing this the whole time??

All of these things are just really resonating with me. I had another thing I wanted to go back to. Just the way that you approach all this…I think it's so useful for [when someone knows] something's not working but not really sure why. A level of choosiness can be satisfying to get it right and then not have to think about it again.

Emily: Yeah, totally. So you know who Jenna Kutcher is?

Maureen: I don’t think so.

Emily: She's a motivational speaker. I don't know if that's the right term, but I haven't followed her in years.

I used to really follow her closely and she had a podcast and she was a big proponent of talking about what you know, because to you, once you know it, you're like, well, doesn't everybody know this? Because I know it and I'm not special and like this can't be something special because I know it. But if you really stop and reflect and you think about where you were a year ago, it's like, oh, well, I didn't know this a year ago. Now I do. Now it feels like second nature,

You're always one step ahead of somebody else and someone else is always one step ahead of you. And so I think, you know, sometimes I feel kind of like silly writing my Substack where I'm like, what am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? Like, is this weird? Do my coworkers think I'm weird when they see this? Like, are they, you know, thoughts run through your head of like, Why is she, you know, she's like a mom and she's taking mirror selfies and talking about it on the internet and oversharing. But I do think that if you have figured something out and you talk about it, There's going to be someone who is ready to hear that and is really grateful to hear that. And the internet, for better or for worse has become this. Resource for all of us where if you want to seek something out, no matter how niche it is like you can find someone who's done something before you and you can learn from that person.

There have been a million examples of things I kind of wish I could have learned more about that I'm sure people just thought this is too basic to even talk about. Like, before I had my son, we lived in this really small apartment. And I wondered, like, what do people do that don't have room for a changing table? What do you do? Do you need a changing table? Do you not? And I went on this, like, crazy rabbit hole search of, like, People who had written blog posts about not having a changing table. Does your back hurt after a while? And I finally found this one woman who wrote this whole blog post about how she never had a changing table. And I was like, thank you. God, like, I needed someone to tell me it was okay and then I didn't ever have one and I was fine.

And I think it's one of those examples of, like, something so benign and you might not think twice about, like, Bringing a left shoe with you shopping. Oh, doesn't everyone do that? And then you tell your friends and they're like, what the f*** are you talking about? They’re like, actually, that's a really good idea. I'm going to I'm gonna do that and maybe I won't have to hate all the clothes in my closet ten months from now.

Part of my Substack is I, and this is maybe more the initial intent when I thought it was going to be more lifestyle or motherhood was to talk about these things that I'm doing that other people might be one step behind me and their fife trajectory wondering like, well, how do you have a kid in New York City without a car or how do you have a closet that only fits twenty hangers but you have a corporate job and you need to look professional? I'm a talker in case that hasn't become clear…

Maureen: I think you’re very eloquent.

Emily: I love talking about anything. I joke and say like I wasn't born with an embarrassed bone, I'm very candid about things and, I don't think hiding things or keeping things to yourself is like the secret to a happy life. As soon as you admit something that maybe you think other people have never felt, they're like, oh, no, I feel that, too, all the time.

As soon as you admit something that maybe you think other people have never felt, they're like, oh, no, I feel that, too, all the time.

Maureen: Mm-hmm.

Emily: You feel that? You? I feel that. Substack is a great place to merge, talking about fashion, but also talking about real things. Like I had written this post like a little pep talk to myself. And I actually look back at it all the time where I'm like, oh, I need that pep talk today. I'm gonna go read my own post to give myself that pep talk. Do the work up front, have a small footprint wardrobe that works for me and is easy and I feel good about and I feel good in and then talk about it on the internet to strangers.

Maureen: No, I think it's, it's so true. There's always someone that wants to hear those things that are second nature and Yeah, I love that idea of we're almost writing for ourselves to a year ago the things that we're documenting the things that we didn't know and we're sharing what we're learning as we go and I think that's super fair. So many people clearly do want to listen and read [to Just For Fun ] and I think why not if it's fun to do!

Emily: Well, the title Just For Fun, I stole it from Instagram because that's one of the Instagram categories is just for fun. That's how I have my Instagram marked. I post more artwork on, on Instagram and then just silly stuff.

I had myself marked as an artist for a really long time and it really weighed on me like, oh, like, do I call myself an artist? Do I not? I don't know. That title feels really big. And I changed it to just for fun one day because I was really overthinking it.

As soon as I did that, I just felt like this weight off my shoulders where I was like. This is just for fun. This is literally for fun. Why am I picking it apart and making it this big thing that it's not? And so when I started a Substack on a whim, I was like, I'm going to call it just for fun because, um, that's exactly what this is. If it's not fun, I'm not going to do it. And if it is fun, I'll keep doing it. I don't care if like one person subscribes or a couple hundred, if it's fun for me, then, and one or two other people are interacting and I'm enjoying that, which they are. Anytime someone comments on one of my posts, I just like get this little adrenaline rush and I'm so excited. And it's like really fun to, to talk about because my husband and my friends aren't really into fashion, so it’s a great outlet for me.

Maureen: We have to build the community we want.

Emily: Online in real life, it's all fair game in 2025.

Maureen: Everything that you've shared has been so... Practical and really easy to learn from, but if you were going to give anyone advice, uh, that were, they were trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them, what would you recommend?

Emily: Pause in your shopping. Say, like, I'm not gonna shop for a month, or a weekend. Everybody has different speed at which they, they shop and some people shop more than others and I don't think it's worth labeling good or bad or anything.

If you can take a pause from your typical cadence, and really just sit with your wardrobe. Wear the things that you own. Anything you don't like move to the back of your closet. You don't have to donate it right away. Just move it out of your line of sight.

And the things that you do like do not feel embarrassed or ashamed or anything negative about wearing them like over and over and over. The more you wear your clothes, the more you figure out…even how you like wearing them. A button down, for example, do you like tucking it in? Do you like having it untucked? I like pushing the sleeve up really high. Do you like doing that? Where do you like the button to be? What kind of jewelry do you like wearing with a button-down? What kind of earrings do you like wearing with the jewelry? There's so many questions you can ask yourself, but when you're constantly acquiring, it becomes really hard to assess what you have. And so I would say pause and really just sit with your feelings.

There's so many questions you can ask yourself, but when you're constantly acquiring, it becomes really hard to assess what you have.

Try your clothes on. If you have a shirt and you can only stand to wear it once a month, maybe it's time to give that shirt another life to someone else or take it to a tailor and say like, hey, maybe this would be better as a sweater vest instead of a long sleeve sweater or. Maybe these jeans could become cut off shorts for this summer or whatever it is like it doesn't necessarily have to be that you're giving it away or selling it or having it end up in a landfill but I do think that wearing what you own, even if you're wearing the same outfit over and over, gives you a certain amount of clarity that just can't be gained through any other way.

The only way to that end destination is through. And I did find last year that there were two or three outfits that I just always kept falling back on, falling back on. Loving to wear, felt great in, and at the end of the day, I was like, I don't really need to go out and buy more stuff that makes me feel this way. I really can just wear the same pair of jeans five days a week. And no one will notice. If I'm okay with that and that feels good. If we find one thing we like, we're like, well, I need ten of this same thing. And you really don't need that. You can find ways to wear your clothes all the time and not feel burnt out and not feel like sick of them.

Yeah, I love outfit repeating. I wear the same outfits all the time and I like it because I know the variables like I know that I'm not gonna be uncomfortable or I'm not gonna have to be like constantly readjusting something and I'm gonna just be able to like forget that I'm even wearing something. That would be my one, my one piece of advice is just like take some time. To sit with what you have before getting more stuff.

Maureen: I hear two things in that that really resonate.

The first being you're centering your own experience. You're sitting with your own preferences, validating them, and letting that be what's important. Your preferences are more important than acquiring new things. That alone I think is really profound.

The second part, is that you have a high attention to detail and you have high standards, right?

Emily: Mm-hmm.

Maureen: And you are also satisfied with what you have. Sometimes we think we have to lower your standards to be satisfied. And I, what I'm hearing is no. You can have high standards, and you can also be satisfied when you simply make space for your preferences to be valid and lean into them and lean into them. I think those two things together are so helpful for anyone that is trying to get dressed and trying to have a wardrobe that resonates with them and helps them live their best life. We don't have to necessarily choose between the things that we want and the things that make us feel good. I think the thing that is actually distracting us is all the outside stuff. The things that we feel that we should be doing, the things we should be buying, the person we should be. And it's that inner work that allows us to just be happy with what we have and who we are.

Emily: Yeah, a hundred percent. I saw something the other day that said internal alignment and then it had the greater than sign external validation and I think when you feel solid in your style and your clothes.

It doesn't have to be perfect. There's not like a fashion nirvana where you're like. this is pure perfection. There's always going to be certain things where you're like, oh, I wonder if there's a better white t-shirt out there or, those types of thoughts.

But I think when you generally feel really good, you don't even need people to say like, oh, I love your outfit. Or if somebody says something, you know, slightly judgmental, it doesn't even bother you because your internal alignment is there and the outside external stuff really doesn't get to you. So if you're not in that place, and I have totally been in that same place before where external validation felt so huge because I was not in alignment internally. And anything that anyone said felt like a dagger to the heart. I took it so personally and read into things that didn't need to be read into. I've been there.

I've been in situations where I'm in a work meeting and I'm in my head. I'm like, I hate this outfit. I freaking hate this. It doesn't have to be that way. I think if you work on seeing yourself as like the beautiful, amazing person that you are and I really believe that everyone is.

This is a mindset shift to see yourself that way, but think about your friends, think about your cousins, think about your sisters, your moms. If you heard anyone say something to them, and this is cliche, what we think about our own selves like you would be mortified, right? Like we're just so hard on ourselves.

And if you can change that, which I feel like I have done a really good job in changing that and I'm really not hard on myself anymore like I really do think positive things about myself.

The clothes too, even if it's not the perfect denim button down or whatever, there's less pressure on it. There's less pressure to have the perfect wardrobe because it's like, that's just kind of like, sprinkles on the icing that is the cupcake.

It's fun to have, but it's not my whole identity and it's not how I'm feeling good about myself at the end of the day. When I really was able to like talk to myself in a nice way and really talk to myself the way like I would want my daughter to talk to herself someday, everything changed where I was like, wow, like I can just wear like a t-shirt and jeans and say, yeah, I'm interested in fashion. Like, I'm allowed to say that. I'm allowed to take up space and like have that opinion and make that statement about myself. It's not up to someone else to be like, you don't look like you're interested in fashion. And that, like, F you. Like, I am interested in fashion.

And I can also wear a Gap denim button-down three out of five days of the week. It's not mutually exclusive. The more work you can do internally, it's going to reflect itself in your closet at the end of the day and the choices that you're making. We all just have to be nice to ourselves.

Maureen: Emily, this is the absolute best conversation. I needed this this week. Everything that you're saying is so... My experience, it's so true. We cannot make aligned decisions with our wardrobes when we hate ourselves.

Emily: Correct.

Maureen: We have to do the inner work first. I feel like we could talk for absolutely forever.

Emily: I know. I want to finish by giving you a compliment because I love how you smile in your photos that you post when you post outfit pictures. Literally, I get like a dopamine hit when I see pictures of you and I smile looking at my phone like I have that like human reaction of like seeing someone smile and like smiling back. And every time you post them, I'm like so excited. I'm like such a fan girl. I love your podcast. I've listened to every episode. I love when you post. I love your sense of style, your point of view, your insights, you're just like such a gift. Every time you post, I'm just like beaming. Your warmth and your amazingness just shines through. So I'm so happy we got to talk today.

Maureen: I’m tearing up if I'm totally honest. Everything you were saying was so like my experience, but I just appreciate that because I feel the same way about about your posts, especially the. ‘What are we wearing? The group chat’ I just think is so fun and relatable, especially when our friends don't care about fashion the same way that we do. We have to create that group chat on the internet.

Emily: And I do have, I do have one friend who really does care and if she listens to this, I don't want her to feel excluded.

Maureen: Yes, I’m only speaking from my experience. It depends on the friend group. I feel like we're gonna have to do another episode in the future, especially as more fashion epiphanies come, and we have new versions of the pant, or whatever. Thank you so much for coming on. This was an absolute joy!

Emily: Yes. Thank you so much.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Emily Grady Dodge for joining us today!

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style ,the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Sushmita and I cover the identity politics of slow fashion, unequal access to ethically made clothing, and how Sushmita is ready to be gentler with herself.

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.

Today's guest, Sushmita , is the writer and artist behind Ethical Fat Fashion . She's well known for her size-inclusive ethical fashion brand directory, zines, and fashion/political commentary.

Welcome to the show, Sushmita!

Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen. It's so nice!

Maureen: Yay! Yes, I'm so happy that you decided to come on.

To kick things off, I love the mission behind your newsletter, Ethical Fat Fashion. For anyone unfamiliar, can you share what EFF is all about?

Sushmita: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's been a few years, and I'm still figuring it out, but Ethical Fat Fashion started off as a brand directory. This was 2021, 2022. I was sourcing size-inclusive and size-diverse brands—brands that started from a 2X or a US 20. From there, I switched to Patreon and started making digital zines, exploring a whole host of different issues. I was talking about body image, movie reviews—anything and everything I wanted to put in there, I did.

That eventually brought me to Substack last year. I wanted something more frequent. The zines were seasonal, but now I post every single week, and the content changes all the time. The thread running through it is the idea of ethical fashion, but I’m looking at it from different angles—especially how our bodies and fashion connect, including how we view ourselves and how that affects how we dress.

Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so true. And I certainly experience this as a writer on Substack myself—it can be hard to pin down into one thing. But that can also be the fun of it!

We're allowed to explore different aspects of who we are and of a particular topic, and I think you manage that really well.

In one of your more recent posts, you compared slow fashion to diet culture (aware of Virginia Sole-Smith), which really resonated with me—especially how you acknowledge the reality that participating in slow fashion has been elevated to a high moral status while simultaneously excluding so many people, particularly fat people.

What compelled you to write this post at this time?

Sushmita: These are really scary posts to put on the internet—especially in leftist spaces, where everybody is aiming for this moral purity. If you add any kind of complexity, you can become a target.

I was scared to write about it, but I think Substack allows for long-form content rather than just 140 characters or less. It lets us balance perspectives.

Hopefully, I was able to separate the idea of fashion justice from what we see as "sustainability" or "slow fashion" as a brand or an identity—because those are two very different things.

Fashion justice is about better conditions for garment workers and ensuring they have living wages. I don’t think anyone is against that. I really don’t. But the means to achieve that—the current slow fashion or ethical fashion movement—has such a heavy focus on consumerism. It’s become identity-focused rather than actually looking at how we can achieve that outcome.

I wrote this post after a series of revelations over the last couple of years. I started to feel more separated from the narratives that kept being repeated on the internet.

One of the big shifts for me was material envy, which I talk about a lot. I saw someone very prominent in the space admit how much they owned, and I realized I owned maybe a quarter of that. The difference between our wardrobes was startling, and I had this feeling inside me—why can’t I have that abundance? Why am I not deserving of beautiful clothes?

Another shift was recognizing the difference between identity and outcome. We're not really having conversations about how we can help garment workers. And I include myself in this—we, as consumers, have taken over the conversation. It’s almost a saviorism narrative: We in the Global North are going to help these poor garment workers.

Maureen: Yeah, yeah.

Sushmita: But the reality is that garment workers are already trying their absolute hardest to advocate for themselves. That’s why trade unions exist.

Many of them are dealing with governments that, even if they have laws in place to protect workers—especially women—those laws aren’t effective. Sexual harassment in factories is a huge issue, and we, as consumers, cannot fix that just by buying differently. We are not in the factories. We cannot protect these workers simply through buying differently.

Maureen: I'm getting chills.

Sushmita: Yeah.

Maureen: I so agree. I did not mean to cut you off, though!

Sushmita: No, no, it’s totally fine. It’s a conversation! But a lot of these things I haven’t said out loud before, so I’m still forming these thoughts as I speak.

I just feel like we’ve created this belief that we can buy our way into saving garment workers. And I don’t connect with that narrative anymore. Instead, I’m thinking about what actions we can take beyond consumerism to support garment workers.

One thing that’s been on my mind is that, due to the new [United States] administration, one of the key trade alliances in Bangladesh, Awaj Foundation, lost 20 to 30% of their funding. We could directly give them money.

That would be more powerful than tweeting or posting online, shaming other people about their consumerism.

Maureen: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes.

We’re so aligned, and this is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show right now.

I’ve been a consumer of slow fashion content for a long time, and I think the early voices in this space raised important issues. They brought awareness to things people didn’t know about.

And to their credit, a lot of work has gone into that awareness—helping us be more conscious of what we buy and why.

But I also think it’s gone too far, to your point. It’s become about identity rather than outcome.

I would love to hear you talk more about the identity of being a "slow fashion person." Why do you think that has resonated so much with creators?

Sushmita: I think it follows what we already see in leftist spaces, where our identities become the whole of us.

For me, the biggest issue is this all-or-nothing thinking. Either you’re buying ethically, or you’re not. Either you’re a "reformed shopper," or you’re not. There’s no in-between.

I struggled with my own consumerism because I couldn’t afford the things I wanted to buy, and I didn’t give myself any grace.

I had spent years building a platform against fast fashion, and unfortunately, the majority of the fashion industry—99% of it—still operates with fast fashion tactics. Maybe not at the same production scale, but there’s still a lot of opaqueness.

It’s really difficult to be a responsible consumer.

And I wouldn’t allow myself to step outside of those boundaries. I had all these limitations. I still have these limitations.

But I was so scared of tarnishing my identity as someone who promotes ethical fashion.

And yet, the whole concept of ethical fashion is actually very, very complicated. People want you to believe that being a responsible consumer is so damn easy. It's just about, you know, choosing the right brand. And now that I've been in this space for a really long time, I’ve been contacting brands that claim to be size diverse or care about inclusivity or sustainability.

There are brands that use socially audited factories and have longstanding relationships with their factories, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they pay living wages. There are small businesses that have zero relationship to their makers. I’ve reached out to them, and they’ll be like, “No, we have no idea which factory we produce at.”

And there's just so much ethics-washing. There's small-business-washing as well. There are brands that are obviously a lot larger than they make themselves out to be. And it's absolutely impossible to always make the right decision when businesses themselves are not being transparent with consumers. A lot of these businesses actually say that they’re ethical or sustainable, but nobody really wants to talk about that aspect.

So not only is it difficult to be responsible when it comes to not buying from 99% of fashion, but it's also difficult when you are only buying from ethical brands because ethical is not regulated.

Maureen: Right. It's like the word "organic" in the United States. What does organic mean? Okay, well, organic means that it’s made out of earth-created materials. [But] organic does not mean that you don’t use pesticides. So there’s this kind of—perhaps purposeful—opaqueness around what a term means, then you don’t have to define it and you don’t have to have restrictions to work within.

I also wanted to go back and validate something you said earlier, which was that writing that post was vulnerable and difficult, and I completely relate to that. I put up a post, I think around the same time that you did—like, I think it was the same week. We were just on the same wavelength.

Oh no, I responded to yours. I'm so sorry. I responded to yours.

Anyway, I put up a post like, There’s this narrative that it’s easy to shop ethically, and yet the reality is very far from that for so many people. Again, going back to this idea of an identity rather than an outcome.

I started looking into the data around fast fashion. People say, Consumers buy sixty-eight items of clothing every year. I can’t find the statistic or the background for that. There are so many things that impact our carbon footprint to begin with. And I know the term ethical doesn’t just mean sustainability—it doesn’t just encompass green practices—but when it is coming from a sustainability perspective, there’s this idea that not buying new clothing has this tremendous impact on your carbon footprint.

And I really don’t think that’s true. I think that not owning a car has a way bigger impact. And as you were saying earlier, not buying new clothing doesn’t mean that you’re actually supporting the garment workers you say you’re supporting.

I try to bring an empathetic perspective to everything I do. And I think maybe we’re just feeling very overwhelmed and powerless in a lot of systems that don’t really feel like they’re working in our best interest. So we ask, “What can I personally do? Oh, well, I get dressed every day. Why don’t I control and try to live my values through that?”

Which I think is great, but it’s also not the bigger picture. And for anyone who faces barriers with shopping that way, it can have a tremendously harmful effect. Like, Am I a bad person if I’m not shopping with my values? But when the companies that align with your values don’t make clothes for you, how can you reconcile that?

Guest: Yeah. That’s such an important topic. You have so many good points.

So I think one of the biggest things is: who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right? So we need to balance our energy. Yes, of course, we can make individual changes, but we also need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures—rather than placing it all on ourselves.

Who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right?….We need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures.

And I think the thing with identity is that it’s so easy to align your identity with certain behaviors when you’re in a place that makes it easy for you to do so. I could say, Hey, I don’t have a car, and I take public transport everywhere. Well, I live in the middle of Tokyo, where the public transport is amazing. But when I lived in the countryside in the UK, that was impossible.

And this is a little snarky, but there are people out there leading the Target boycott when they don’t even have Targets in their country. Like, it’s so easy to say, "Boycott Target" or "I don’t shop at Target," when you don’t even have Target where you live.

I get really frustrated when people place shame on others when they have access to things that make it so much easier to conform to a slow fashion or ethical fashion identity. And of course, the biggest thing is size inclusivity.

It’s hard for me because I feel like I’m constantly straddling both sides of the narrative. One side says, "There are no ethical size-inclusive options," which isn’t true—that’s why I created my directories. But then the other side says, "It’s so easy to buy ethically when you’re fat," and that’s simply not true either.

Yes, there are options, but they’re much more scarce than what other people have. And the main reason I created my directory was that the biggest sustainable directory out there had a plus-size section that started at an XL, but included sizes from different countries. An Australian XL, a Japanese XL, an Indian XL—these are all very different from a U.S. XL. Some of them aren’t plus-size at all.

So it was impossible to find your size using one of the biggest sustainable directories. It was not plus-size friendly at all. And so, I try to hold both of those narratives: Yes, these options exist, but it’s not easy. Right. You wrote this amazing piece about shame.

Maureen: Yeah, everything’s about shame.

Sushmita: And one of the things I was thinking is, shame does work—but only for people who have already taken on that identity and internalized it.

Fast fashion consumption—again, I don’t know about that sixty-eight-garment statistic, I couldn’t find the original source either—but I do know that fast fashion and ultra-fast fashion overconsumption is an issue.

But who is internalizing that shame? It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. If anything, they’re like, "I’m sick of your moralizing. I just don’t care."

It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives.

So the question is: If this small group is carrying the shame, do we keep trying to reach out and convince people who clearly aren’t receptive? Or do we find other ways to bring about the change we want instead of focusing on shame?

Maureen: Yeah, exactly. How do we, as a slow fashion community, shift our narrative to show that we’re not doing this to make our lives worse? We’re not martyrs. We do this because we want to stay optimistic for the future.

And I think that’s where we need to be heading—toward a middle ground between "It’s super easy" and "It’s impossible."

Sushmita: For sure. I sometimes use these terms interchangeably, but there are differences between slow fashion, ethical fashion, and sustainable fashion. They do overlap, but I don’t follow the slow fashion philosophy. I want more, more, more.

For me, ethical fashion has always been the biggest focus—seeing it as a labor-centered movement and thinking about how we can mitigate harm and be more responsible consumers.

But the issue is, there are limitations to that for sure. And I think one of the things is that, you know, we have this idea in our mind of if we buy from small businesses in the US or the UK or Australia, they may be ethical, but they don't really have any tangible impact on garment workers in the global south. So those two behaviors are very separate. But in terms of turning away from shame and moving towards a different way of consumerism, I feel like there's so many possibilities and positive outcomes from buying from brands outside of the mainstream. I really connect with it because I like the fashion that's available. I love the textiles, the fashion that's coming out of India right now, the contemporary stuff. There's a lot of color. There's things that I really, really love. I think for me though is, when you're not rich or when you have other limitations, including size or geographical limitations, me living in Japan, sometimes it's just hard to, you know, buy what you need.

So there are some beautiful things out there, and I try to support those brands as often as I can. But there are things where I'm just like, Oh, I really wish that I had something warm for the winter that I didn't have to wait four months to arrive and that didn’t cost three to four times the amount plus the additional shipping. And I'm not saying that ethical brands are overpriced. They're not. But as a consumer, it's still hard to pay that kind of money, and I just wish that we would allow people more grace as consumers, especially within this very, very small group of early adopters who’ve taken on these new behaviors. I wish that it didn't have to be this kind of thing of like, you have to be perfect all the time. Otherwise, you no longer believe in the things that you believe.

Maureen: To that point, I would love to hear a little bit about... you had posted somewhat recently about trying to experience some more consumerism ease. Could you share a little bit more about some of the steps that you might take towards giving yourself that slack when it comes to buying clothes that align with your ethical values?

Sushmita:Yeah, I will. I think, again, it's really scary. It's like, it's almost like saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm stepping out of bounds." I'm afraid about, you know, how people will judge me. I went on to... this is completely unrelated, but before the consumerism ease, I went on to a podcast a few months ago and I had somebody email me. One of the things that they emailed me about was veganism and how important it was to them, and I found it really strange because I'm not vegan. I don’t talk about food in that way. And nothing that I said on that podcast was about food. But it was almost like, if you believe in this, then you should also believe in this. And they had put me into, I think, a box of like a perfect sustainable advocate, and that's not something that I align with at all. The only reason I said it was because I just get scared of doing things that fall out of those identity parameters and how I will be seen and how my body of work might be misaligned because I'm not towing that line perfectly.

But yeah, so in terms of the consumerism ease, one of the things is, people who are now reformed slow fashion advocates or ethical fashion advocates, they got a lot of time where they were able to over-consume and they got to find their style. And then all of a sudden overnight, they're like, Hey, not into that anymore. And you're a bad person if you still are. So they got that experience. Whilst for me, and I've spoken about this time and time again, my size and my economic situation changed very, very dramatically.

So, I didn’t over-consume fast fashion for a decade. I didn’t even really do anything with fashion. I just had my work outfits and then I had some comfy athleisure outfits, and that was it. I just had no opportunity. And so now that I'm trying to discover my style and connect with fashion, one of the things that has really come to light is that it takes work, and it doesn't always happen right away.

So, what I mean is when you make a purchase, it doesn't mean that that purchase is going to be completely amazing and suit you. So that's why I don't really think like, you know, if you only make five purchases a year, if you're fat or if, like, you know, for me, I'm also petite as well. Those limitations mean the chances are out of those five purchases, they're not all going to fit me in the way that I want.

And so the biggest ease that I've given myself is like, if I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore. I'm trying my best. I'm checking measurements carefully. Like, I'm doing what I can, and I think, I feel like I've internalized too much shame when it comes to making the wrong purchases.

If I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore.

So in terms of not necessarily ethical consumerism, I actually have a really good example. Yesterday, I had planned to go to a community gym with one of my friends, and you need indoor shoes for gyms here so you have to change into sport shoes that haven't been worn outside, just to maintain a level of cleanliness. And I didn't realize that I needed those indoor shoes until very late the night before.

I was like, what am I going to do? Like, I can't order a pair of shoes online. They're not going to come in time. If I order a pair of sustainable shoes, they're going to be here in like, a month and a half. It's not gonna happen. I'm not financially prepared as well to make that, you know, investment when it comes to sports shoes from sustainable brands—like you're looking at a couple of hundred bucks. It's quite expensive.

So I decided to go to Don Quixote, if you know Don Quixote, in Japan. Don Quixote. It's like a megastore. And they're open very late. So some of them are open twenty-four hours. We had one that was half an hour from us that was open till 3am. I went to Don Quixote late at night. It was like ten o'clock at night to try and find a pair of indoor shoes. And yeah, so it was a very impulsive kind of purchase. I chose a brand that, for me, is very decent. It's a Japanese brand. But again, they're completely opaque. I don't think that they're ethical in terms of how their textile workers are treated. But it felt fine. I didn’t want to feel this additional layer of shame and guilt for not making the right decision under the circumstances.

Generally, when I talk about consumerism ease, I just want to be more gentle with myself. Like, I've always kind of said for other people that they should do what they can within their capacity and access level, but I just have never reserved that grace for myself. And yeah, I want more of that softness going forward because I feel like, you know, if all of us are making changes to some extent, rather than a few of us trying to follow this morally perfect path, it's going to be a lot more impactful and hopefully we'll also have more energy for the more important stuff.

I just want to be more gentle with myself

Maureen: I wanted to acknowledge both things at once, right? You do have an opportunity to bring that gentleness to yourself, and also, throughout this conversation and through your writing, it is so apparent that the judgment that you're experiencing is also external. And so, I do think that, when we can bring gentleness to ourselves, that's amazing. But also, like, I want to acknowledge that, for you, the fact that that's been a challenge to give yourself that... Sounds like it's coming from a rational place of like, there are people out there that will judge me and they will tell me.

And I just want to acknowledge that that sounds really difficult, and I definitely don't think you deserve that. I really hope that we as a creator community can at least provide that for each other if it's not coming from the audience.

And, if you ever are looking for grace, I mean, I certainly would give it to you. I'm glad that you were able to get those shoes and go to the gym with your friend. I mean, that's legitimate to me, and there are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. And so I think that one purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.

There are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. One purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.

Sushmita: Thank you, Maureen.

One of the things that has really come to light is moving on to Substack, I have noticed the generosity of creators and the people who kind of walk the line of compassion and self-compassion and empathy and complexity. They have been the most generous to me, and I feel like really the opposite of the people who kind of spend time framing under this idea of justice have really kind of internalized scarcity in this way that there's no room for any other creator. And I don't know why, but I really obviously connect with this idea that we can be generous towards others and there is space for others, I guess, you know, especially if we're looking towards building a collective goal and having these more nuanced discussions. Building that community is like one of the most essential things.

Maureen: I agree, and it's awesome to hear that your experience on Substack is different. I hope that doesn't change and that we can continue to be in community rather than competition with each other.

I was hoping to talk about your art a little bit and how your art influences your style and vice versa.

Sushmita: I love color. That's a big thing for me. I'm very new to getting back in touch with my connection with fashion, and the first thing that I really was drawn to was adding more color.

That's because I make art and obviously I use color there and so I'm already comfortable with it. The other thing is prints; I love prints and I feel that people sometimes hesitate to add prints to their wardrobe because, you know, they might quote unquote go out of style, blah, blah, blah.

But I feel like once you connect with the print, it feels like you can integrate it as part of your individual style, regardless of the trends changes. And I really liken it to when you go to an art gallery. And if you look at every single piece of work, you get really exhausted because you're reading every single art statement and you're trying to treat everything equally, and it's similar to like maybe even trying to buy fashion because you're weighing up every single option. Whilst sometimes, and this is definitely the method that I would encourage, if you go into an art gallery and you see a piece that you love, just spend time with that piece. Spend less time with the others.

And I feel like that's the same thing with choosing prints and colors in your wardrobe. Choosing what you get the most enjoyment out of and really trusting yourself that you know what you like and trust what you're drawn to rather than continuously being worried about having to fit a certain style archetype.

I'm not saying that we aren't externally influenced or, you know, our styles won't overlap like that's just natural, but I do think self-trust definitely comes into it.

Maureen: I love that suggestion both for the museum and then also for pattern. Even just today I'm wearing this kind of like pattern sweater today. And I was thinking, I was like, oh man, that sweater is like really standing out in my wardrobe. Everything else is plain and I have this one. And I was like, you know what? I like it. I like it. I like it. That's enough. I can just like it and I can wear it and I connect with it. I don't have to question how it relates to everything else and I don't have to question like what it means about me or put myself into a box. I can just like it. So I resonate with; it's very on my mind.

Sushmita: I went into a jewelry store just a couple of days ago and it was one of those like handmade jewelry stores, so the artists own it. It wasn't expensive. They were on the cheaper side and I found these, I'm wearing them now, they're little cat earrings. And I found these little cat earrings and I fell in love with them straight away because I love cats and the secondary narrative that came up was like, oh, they don't look expensive enough. They don't look like high fashion enough. And I found myself really questioning it. I was like, oh my God, you know. Oh, like, if I buy these, then it's just so, what is it? What do the kids say? Normcore. Maybe it's too normcore. I had to challenge myself and be like, wait, I like them. I should just get it. And so I did. And now they bring me a lot of joy!

Maureen: Oh, I love that!

Next, I would just love to talk a little bit about, we have talked about kind of the barriers and things that you face, and we just talked about that kind of internal dialogue, but how do you decide what to buy and what to wear and how do you decide what not to buy or wear?

Sushmita: Like I mentioned, I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available. So that's why for a decade it was just kind of like comfy pants and a t-shirt and it was like these stretchy. Like, it was definitely athleisure. Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size. And so now... I have more options, obviously being able to look at different brands across the world. I'm able to kind of bring in more discernment.

I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available… Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size.

So previously, all I did was like, look at what was available, filter by size and be like, okay, this is all right. I'll just get this. And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe? I have certain colors that I'm looking to bring in. So I'm trying to create more cohesion, but again, I'm really at the beginning of this journey because I just didn't have the access before. In terms of what I decide to wear day to day, most of the time I'm inside the house. I don't really express my style. I just wear my home wardrobe, which is not very stylish. It's just kind of like very old, worn out, fast fashion. But when I leave the house and I get dressed, that is when I feel mostly more in touch with myself and my style.

And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe?

And it's definitely changed. Growing up, I would always wear skirts and avoid trousers and now I have fallen more in love with bold big tops and trousers. And I still love my skirts and my dresses, but I feel the way that I see my body has also affected the way that I dress. I never wore trousers before, that was because of the way that I saw like my thighs and trying to kind of conform to a certain way of dressing that may or may not have actually made me look thinner. Whilst now, it's more about proportions rather than it being about just my body alone.

Maureen: And when you say proportion, what comes to my mind would be like silhouette and like expression. Is that what you mean or do you mean something else?

Sushmita: No, exactly that. Experimenting kind of with the crop of certain tops and lengths of pants and, dressing in a more bold way. Embodying a style that maybe I didn't have the confidence to completely step into when I was younger.

Maureen: I relate to that. I definitely relate to that. It's not easy. Knowing that, you're feeling like you're kind of starting this out or it's somewhat newer to be able to use a little more discernment when you're shopping, what advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Sushmita: It's a big question.

I think authenticity in itself can become really tricky because I feel like it gets confused with this idea of having to be really, really unique. Just like developing an art style like, you know, you have this pressure of having this singular style that's only yours and no one else's, but I feel like it's okay to be inspired by what other people wear. And it's okay to wear things that are very similar and overlap.

If I liken it to just making art, then it's really just about focusing on the act of dressing. And really tuning into what you like. For me, I'm kind of shifting towards both the more, to take on one of your words, Maureen, intuitive kind of decisions about dressing whilst also focusing on the analytics as well.

If you're really just starting out, and you don't have an overwhelming wardrobe, then just focusing on choosing things that you like, but if you already have a really full wardrobe where you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, I think analytics can really help because then you can see what's missing in terms of your day-to-day life and then balancing both of those decisions together, the self-trust, what you like, whilst also filling in those practical gaps.

Maureen: I love that. That's such good advice and also really nuanced. Not every piece of advice makes sense for everyone, based on where they're at in their kind of personal style journey, for lack of a better word. I love that distinction that you made between, if you have a lot of clothing that's a different kind of situation than if you have a smaller wardrobe.

This has been really fun and I love hearing you talk about your mission and how Ethical Fat Fashion fits into the broader landscape and, I'm going to be thinking a lot harder now about, when I use the word slow fashion versus when I say ethical versus when I say sustainable. I want to be a little bit more clear about what you, what those mean. I think we need to be donating our money to our garment workers. Could you remind us what the name of the organization was, or was it a union?

Sushmita: it's a large foundation, based in Bangladesh. A lot of fast fashion companies produce there. They've shifted their manufacturing from India to Bangladesh because it's cheaper. I really feel like, even if you're still buying fast fashion, you can still contribute in that way for sure.

Maureen: I am going to be posting that everywhere. I am leaning towards that direction too. I'm not going to shop perfectly, but I will put my money also towards things that I care about. And that [organization] sounds like a great place to start. Thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?

Sushmita: Of course, the Substack, the Ethical Fat Fashion . I still have social media channel, I mean, Substack is social media, but... the Meta platforms as well. So threads and also Instagram, also Ethical Fat Fashion, but I'm on there less because I'm really focusing all my energy on the Substack.

Maureen: Well, I can feel it. Thank you so much!

Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen.

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully. Today's guest is Tina from Semi-Sustainable. Tina is a fashion industry veteran who is about to graduate with her MBA. You know her from her nuanced takes on what it means to shop and dress sustainably and her gorgeous fashion week roundups. Tina, welcome to the show.

Tina

I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. And can I say I have loved all of your past episodes. You've made my Fridays so much more exciting.

Maureen

Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. It's been so fun to make and just a quick shout out to all the guests who have made it possible!

I'm so happy to talk today. I know we've had a chance to connect a little bit beforehand, so I'm just happy to hear even more from you about your personal style. For anyone who hasn't had a chance to read your column yet, can you describe what Semi-Sustainable is all about and how you got into the sustainable fashion world, specifically?

Tina

Totally. You know, I'll even work my way backwards to that question. So I have always worked in traditional fashion. I started as an omni-channel jewelry and accessories buyer, which is where my heart loves is categories to buy. And then I moved into apparel. And as e-commerce was heating up, I was given this opportunity to work in buying and site merchandising on the online side of the business. And I really loved that. But during that time, I never quite absorbed fashion's impact on the planet.

So when I was starting out, the emphasis was on high-low dressing and being a smart shopper meant you bought from fast fashion. You bought something from a designer and you had this well-rounded wardrobe. And it was in 2018 that I went to a panel talk given by Mara Hoffman's team, and they talked about how they really transform their supply chain to be more sustainable. And they went into great detail about how fashion harms the planet and what they were doing to really take away some of that impact. It was so eye-opening for me.

And after that, I kind of started down this pathway of making changes in my fashion consumption. So it was not overnight by any means, but you know, at the time I was a big Zara shopper and I really worked to slow that down and put more thought into how much I was buying. And for me, what worked in my favor, I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. You know, first because, and then I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget. And then over time it, because it was more circular and I've shifted a lot of my purchasing to secondhand. Over the last five or six years.

I was on the earlier side of shopping the RealReal. I've been shopping there for eleven years now. I could afford all the designer pieces that I would have loved to have in my budget.

Then for Semi-Sustainable, I started it last fall as my innovation project. For my MBA program and we were able to get approval to work on anything that would really help grow or advance our careers. And I know I would love to work and some kind of sustainable arm of the fashion industry, especially if there's a tech component in there. So, you know, as far as Substack, I had subscribed to newsletters here and there over the last few years, but I really thought they were more of the silo of newsletters and I didn't realize there was this whole fashion Substack universe. And when I got into it, I was hooked. So I started Semi Sustainable as a way to talk about a subject that I love, but also ways we can be more responsible in our consumption. So for me, that's mostly buying secondhand and not new or what I like to call firsthand. And, you know, I don't think fashion and sustainability are these mutually exclusive concepts. You look at brands like Ganni, for example, and you can see it's possible to do or be both.

Maureen

Yeah, I love that. Can you speak a little bit more about, you know, why semi-sustainable rather than fully sustainable, for example?

Tina

I love to say that I could never call this like fully sustainable because it's almost impossible in today's world. If you buy something new, you're manufacturing a new product made out of new materials. It's impacting the planet. So. You can take ways to make it a little more sustainable in your life, whether it's buying secondhand, reducing your consumption, or even outside of fashion. I try to think of ways I can try to reduce my consumption.

What kills me is plastic. I have done a lot of research into plastic for my MBA program. So I'm always the person trying to. Find ways to actually recycle my beauty empties through Sephora or take my plastic packaging back to the grocery store in the hopes that it might be made more circular. So just trying to take those steps, knowing that unless you probably never buy anything again, you'll never be a very fully sustainable person.

Maureen

I love that nuance. I mean, yeah, I think just bringing that nuance and that understanding that full sustainability isn't really even realistic. I resonate with that so much, and Intuitive Style is about is letting go of perfectionism and just seeing those places where perfectionism isn't even possible.

I did want to go back a little bit to that talk by Mara Hoffman. I know that was a while ago, but is there anything that comes to mind that like you remember from that talk that just like really struck you as, ‘sustainability is important and it's possible?’

Tina

You know, I think where they were talking a lot is some things that I knew a little bit more because of my fashion background. So they talked about how they changed their printing processes to use less water or how they'd work with their manufacturing teams to. Have less fabric wasted wastage and that really resonated with me since as a buyer I was working a lot with production team or factories and it makes you realize how much all the things you make as decisions as a buyer add up. to impact the planet. So, I think for me, like having both the fashion background and then being a little interested in sustainability at the time really worked together to make me realize, whoa, there's, there's so much that I can do to pull back my own consumption. And hopefully, you know, one day getting into this career where I can work in a more sustainable way, you know, hopefully for a secondhand brand or a fashion tech brand that's really helping to make fashion more circular.

Maureen

Yeah, super cool. I know that you also worked for a trend forecaster, uh, in the past, sometimes a hidden part of the fashion industry. Can you think of any ways that experience has influenced your perspective on the fashion community at large?

Tina

Yes. So as you said, I worked at a leading global trend forecasting agency and I was a brand consultant there and the trend forecasters were incredible. They did so much deep dive research. And what people sometimes think of trend forecasting is very different from what it is. So trend forecasting is this really complex and nuanced topic. Not just what's going down the runway, but there's these cultural forces that are constantly shaping fashion and what we wear. Um, you know, one of the things we're all familiar with is Y2K dressing. I think especially amongst Gen Z. And it really stems from this phenomenon called anemoia, which is nostalgia for a time you've never experienced. So you see Gen Z growing up during a period of extreme change and upheaval, and they were able to find comfort in this nostalgic clothing that maybe their parents wore or they'd look back in movies and it would just be this really comforting kind of way to express themselves through style.

Maureen

That's really interesting. Like, and I think it's so, so important to always think about that cultural aspect of how we get dressed because, I would never say that the choices that I make for what I wear are in a vacuum, right? Like, I can't really distill down my choices and be like, yeah, that's a hundred percent me, babe. Like, you know, there's going to be things that I choose that are because there's a social or cultural context. And that's fine. I don't have to be 100% individual in every choice that I make because, again, it's not realistic. I appreciate that social component there because we are social creatures and we also are emotional. So the idea that we would want to create I think you said, um, like comfort or that feeling of nostalgia through our clothes. That makes a lot of sense.

What was your favorite thing about working for the trend forecaster?

Tina

It definitely made me think about fashion much more. Probably a deeper level than I had before, just understanding, you know, what is actually driving the trend. Or in a fun way, you can see what's bubbling up. With the Barbie movie, you could kind of see pink just reach the zenith within the fashion industry. And then kind of fall its way back down. So there's definitely that very Um, emotional connection to fashion that you just touched on societal connection to fashion, political connection to fashion that you can really see clothing evolving as well as just how we're interacting with it in social media, which is. Absolutely fascinating as we've seen micro trends peak over the last few years. Now we're coming back to personal style, which I absolutely love. I love seeing how people decide to get dressed. So. Just having both of those aspects is fascinating within trend forecasting.

Maureen

Yeah, I hadn't even thought about trend forecasters mining social media. That makes sense. Wow. Wow.

Tina

Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely the time capsule, I would say, of the 2000s through now. It's a way to really track trends and understand what's going on in the cultural zeitgeist. So I can find a lot of really interesting shifts in social media.

Maureen

Right, right. Yeah, I feel like in the past so much of, well, I would think that so much of trends in the past were driven by brands and now with social media, maybe more of the trends are driven by individuals, but maybe individuals have always been driving trends and we just overemphasized the impact of brands. I'm thinking, of course, of that, uh, iconic moment [belt monologue'] from The Devil Wears Prada.

Maureen

But, anyway. let's talk a little bit about your personal style. so I'm starting to become more interested in why behind what people are wearing rather than just what we're wearing. So can you share with us how do you decide what to personally buy or wear?

Tina

Yes, I love that question. So I have talked about on Semi-Sustainable how I've been this total maximalist dresser for most of my adult life. I had never been a print or pattern I didn't want to mix together or, you know, wear everything at the same time. But during the pandemic, I think just staying at home, I went through a period where like a lot of us, I wasn't getting dressed up for work. I was wearing sweatpants every day and minimalism and quiet luxury were just beginning to kind of take off. And I was doing a lot of research on that for work. And at the same time for work, I was doing research into next gym fabrics and consumer attitudes on sustainability and the climate crisis. As well as like helping brands learn how they can become more sustainable.

So call it looking at minimalist images every day, wanting to make my own wardrobe more sustainable by being timeless or just making this change in my life to mark coming out of the pandemic period, but I started feeling off in my maximalist clothing. So over the last year I've transitioned to this more timeless wardrobe. I'm not buying prints or the bold colors or these really sculptural shapes that might date themselves quickly or be difficult to style in my wardrobe. I'm definitely avoiding fast fashion and I'm proud to say I've never bought anything from Shein, but I absolutely understand if, if somebody has, sometimes it's, it's the most successful option. And 95% of my purchases are probably secondhand from the RealReal or thread up today. So that's really what guides my wardrobe is just looking for timeless style, something I can look at and say, I'm pretty sure I'll still be wearing this in five years and secondhand first always.

Maureen

Yeah, when you're making kind of a big shift from one end of the spectrum being more maximal to more minimal, how do you, how do you approach that without being too overwhelmed by the scale of, of the transition? Was it more of an organic process? Like, how did you handle that?

Tina

For me, I just, I started feeling uncomfortable in what I was wearing when I was wearing my really bold pieces. And I don't know about you, but I feel like fashion just is such a form of like self-expression and self-care. And if I don't like what I'm wearing. I don't always feel my most confident for the day. So I dig out like the few minimal pieces I had in my wardrobe and I'm like, okay, I'm feeling better in this. And then I slowly started supplementing my wardrobe with more of those pieces. It is a good thing I am an outfit repeater and I feel wery comfortable repeating outfits because I did that quite a bit as I was slowly building up my wardrobe because I didn't want to just go on this big spree and buy a lot of things and then not really wear them.

So it's definitely taken me like about a year or so, but I think I'm in a better place. I'm more thoughtful with what I'm buying. And I feel better about what I'm wearing every time I get dressed, which is a huge one for me.

Maureen

That's awesome. How about body awareness? So what I mean by this is, when you put on clothing, are there specific textures, fits, or styles that, you gravitate towards because of how they make you feel in your body?

Tina

Oh my gosh, when I think of this question, I think of the shift that I made from the 2010s era where everything was so tight and restrictive and skinny jeans and fitted tops and high heels. And today there's definitely a sense of comfort first in your dressing where silhouettes are looser and people wear sneakers more often and that's really where I'm falling. When I see skinny jeans come back, I still can't believe that I wore them almost every day for, you know, ten plus years. I felt so uncomfortable most of the time because they're so restrictive. So really having like the ease and the looseness of something that's a little more oversized as is influencing the way I've dressed over the last few years.

Maureen

Yeah, I'm personally very grateful that we as a fashion community have become open to the idea of oversized and comfort. Prioritizing that over just aesthetics, but almost seeing the, the oversized as the ideal aesthetic. I mean, personally, I'm just overjoyed. I never thought that that's what I would want, but now that we're here, I'm so pleased.

Tina

I know. I know.

Maureen

I hope we don't go back, you know, and maybe I feel like there's a lot of people that won't go back even if the trend changes back in that direction. I think a lot of people would be like, nah, I'm good. I've seen the other side.

Tina

Oh my gosh, I agree. I actually wore skinny jeans for my Halloween costume and I just felt so uncomfortable the whole night. So it was nice to get back into my looser clothing the next day and just feel more relaxed and what I was wearing in my body.

Maureen

What was the costume?

Tina

It was Indie Sleaze, um, Ashley Olson.

Maureen

Oh my gosh, you're such a fashion girl and I mean that in the best way.

Tina

I don't think anybody but me understood my outfit, but I enjoyed it.

Maureen

That's so fun, that's so fun. So we've talked a little bit about the kind of transition from maximal to more minimal, but are there any other style evolutions or memorable phases that you can think of from your dressing history?

Tina

Oh my gosh, outside of maximalism, I would say I look back at the low rise jeans mania of like the 2000s era. Which was not quite right for my body shape since I'm a long wasted person. And I just remember this as it was a time when you could not find anything but low rise jeans anywhere. And yeah, and it was also the height of these expensive jeans is social currency so you'd always want to have that brand logo on your denim pocket and I cringe today that I would save up my money to buy these. Insanely expensive jeans that I felt so uncomfortable. And every time I wore them, I always felt like they were falling down too low. So definitely memorable. I do have a couple of pairs that I am. Not ready to part with because the denim is so amazing. I'm like, maybe I can find a way to like sew five inches of denim on here to make the waist really high waisted, but an upcycling project for one day.

Maureen

Wow. That sounds cool. If you could add five inches of denim onto the waistband of a pair of pants, I think that you would be an absolute magician. I can't even imagine. But I mean, what you're saying speaks to the fact that fashion isn't just self-expression, it's also fitting in. And I think it's totally reasonable as difficult as it can be to understand, like, we, what do you think about this idea of like, uh, Why is it that our clothing allows us to fit in with groups of people or not fit in if we don't wear what they're wearing like why is that such a big part of our. Our culture. I mean.

Tina

I know, and you know, you think back to your teens and your 20s where wearing the right thing and fitting in felt so important, where if you didn't have the Expensive low rise jeans. And were you really stylish? I mean, I look back at the pictures and I'm like, no, that was not very stylish, but just having this social identity through fashion, I think, especially because it's a way you can visually signal. Kind of, I don't want to say status in the world, but your self-expression in the world maybe is a better way to say that. And I have, what I've enjoyed about getting older is that I don't feel that need to fit in as much through fashion, I wear what I enjoy wearing and I'm not really a part of the micro trend ecosystem that some people might be in either because they really enjoy it or sometimes it feels like you are kind of fitting in through fashion. So yeah, that's a tough one feeling that that pull to be included through fashion in ways that might not feel authentic to you.

Maureen

Yeah, I think there's an age component too, right?

Tina

Totally.

Maureen

When we are younger and we're less secure in our identity generally because, we're maybe trying to separate ourselves from our family identity, but we haven't figured out who we are, um, outside of our family. I think that's why maybe we lean into these trends as a way to create a new persona and make sure that we are, we're fitting in somewhere, um, especially like as we are developmentally separating from our family. I mean, it makes sense, especially at that age.

Even now, like, I think about how, you know, speaking from my personal experience, I don't really have a desire to stand out with my clothes. I like my clothing to be, you know, conversational in the way that it's Interesting. I don't want my clothing to be boring. I also don't really love the idea of like being stopped on the street Because of what I'm wearing, you know, that makes me really uncomfortable to be observed in that way. So even today I think about, yes, I'm dressing for comfort, but thankfully also my, what is, what is in style right now are the things that are comfortable for me personally. And so I'm. I don't know that there's work that needs to be done there, but it is interesting this idea that uh, even now, where I think still a lot of people are still dressing for social acceptance in this quieter, more laid back, sneakers forward kind of way. It's just maybe less obvious because we're all so comfortable in these things.

Tina

Mm-hmm.

Maureen

I don't know what you think about that. Is it just repeating the same thing just in more comfortable clothes or? How do, how do we find agency in that anyway?

Tina

That is so interesting. And you know, I think we've all done it. Like we've all dressed to fit in at every stage of our lives. And I think where you're talking about, too, you are trying to break away from your family and form your own identity as a teenager. That totally makes sense. But I do think now, because the clothing has gotten a little more universal and more comfortable, it might not seem like you are dressing in a certain way for social acceptance or social identity. But maybe you are just a little bit.

I know when I was younger, what drove my interest in fashion is I was so shy and clothing was my way of expressing my personality. So I would get dressed in these maximalist outfits. And when people would get to know me, they'd be like, wow, like you are shy, but your clothing is not shy. So that helped me step out in the world because I'd feel more confident when I was wearing and maybe I'd be more comfortable talking more. And, you know, today it's definitely something where I'm grateful that I was interested in fashion because in a way it helped pull me out of my shell.

When I was younger, what drove my interest in fashion is I was so shy and clothing was my way of expressing my personality. And when people would get to know me, they'd be like, wow, like you are shy, but your clothing is not shy. So that helped me step out in the world because I'd feel more confident when I was wearing.

Maureen

Mmm, that's beautiful! Are there any memorable outfits that you, like, you've loved at a particular moment in time?

Tina

Oh my gosh, I think in high school I loved wearing knee socks and jelly shoes. I thought it was the height of chic. I don't know why. But I wore them all the time and I look back at that, you know, maybe now jolly shoes are having a small moment from last year, but I look back and I'm like, whoa. It makes me laugh a little bit to see that I thought that was such an amazing outfit at the time as a high schooler. And then today, yeah, today it's not something I would necessarily wear as an adult.

Maureen

That's fair. Do you have any personal or style goals that you're working towards this year?

Tina

I love that question. So I actually started using Indyx App on January 1st. It was kind of like this new year's resolution of sorts for fashion and I haven't missed a day yet. My goal is to try to wear everything in my closet this year, so especially those more maximalist pieces that have kind of been stagnating in the back of my wardrobe. And then I'm going to decide if I want to sell something or not. I definitely can see that I've got my cost per wear out of my minimalist items. And I can look back at my Indyx, my calendar, and I love a ‘grout fit’, a gray outfit. I definitely outfit repeat quite a bit. And as we are talking about, I've had this kind of staunch minimalist or bust mentality. But I just wrapped up this series on Fashion Week street style, and it did turn my head a little bit back towards maximalism. So it doesn't have to be so black or white. And in the last month or so, I've gotten better about Incorporating my more over the top pieces back into my rotation, not necessarily having everything over the top, but, you know, wearing a couple of pieces a week just to make sure. Do I really want to part with this? Is this just a phase of my life or am I really going to regret selling my I don't know, animal print Proenza Schouler skirt that I got for an amazing deal on the RealReal after wanting it so badly in the late 2010s.

Maureen

Yeah, I love that idea so much of, okay, before I part with these things, we're gonna try to style them, make them work today, and see, uh, If, if there's a place for them, I think that's really, that sounds like really fun, actually. That sounds fun. Is it fun or is it overwhelming? I

Tina

It's fun. Yeah. Maybe next time we get together, I'll wear one of my maximalist pieces.

Maureen

I would love that!

Tina

I think it's, I think it's not as black and white as I had been making it. I can still feel minimalist, but over, you know, occasionally wear these over the top pieces and still feel good about my style.

Maureen

Yeah. Yeah. And they don't have to be worn the way that you did in the past, right? We can reinvent them and wear them in ways that maybe feel cooler today where I'm with a sneaker or something. Or, you know, instead of doing print on print, we can do, uh, you know, something else that really kind of takes it down a notch or something. I think there's a lot of ways to, to reinvent these pieces.

And, I'm really interested in how we move away from this quiet luxury. I know Kelly Williams from Midimalist has written a little bit and Sogole Kane as well have written about ‘where do we go from here?’ [referring to quiet luxury]. And I think you were just sharing in a post this week, too, about, you know, what you're seeing in Fashion Week. Being kind of a turn back towards 2006. And I saw that in the images too. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is like….We were in this place of everything with a white t-shirt but then like a crazy skirt and like crazy shoes and like a clutch bag that has like some fun detail. I don't know, is that where you feel like we're going? Is this more minimalist, a little bit of maximal, a little bit of quiet, all together, like as opposed to just full on maximal or full on minimal?

Tina

I definitely think there's a return to maximalism coming, but like you're saying, it will probably be tempered with we've been wearing really minimalist clothing for the last few years. Do we really want to give that up? So it'll probably be like Kelly's, I just love the name of her sub stack, Midimalist, like it will be in between, but there are people I see on social media or in fashion week who are wearing these very statement outfits and they look incredible and they kind of make me think, oh, maybe I should wear a statement outfit. But I do think we'll fall somewhere a little more in the middle. Just with economic forces kind of shaping what we might be buying or what we might not be able to invest in our wardrobes this year.

Maureen

Yeah, that's super, super fair point. I mean, I try not to talk about what's happening in the zeitgeist too much on this podcast so that we can be a little bit escapist. But yeah, I mean, I think that's very fair, like with the price of eggs high. You know, it can be kind of hard to justify making a more, you know, maximalist purchase, which are probably, if they're well done, they're very expensive. So I think that's a really good point is….How open are people to reinvesting in those kinds of pieces is we'll, we'll have to find out.

Tina

I know, and hopefully this will make people a little more who are curious about secondhand a little more. You know, ready to buy it this year. I think this could really be the year where secondhand starts to take off for people who have been a little unsure about how they can work that into their wardrobes.

Maureen

What advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Tina

Oh, I would say because I have been guilty of this, try not to get sucked into trends. You know, I've done it and then I haven't felt great and what I've been wearing and it didn't feel intuitive to me. So I'd really say think of the outfit that you feel are best in your absolute best. And then ask yourself, what do you like about it? And then kind of work your way up from there. And I also really believe in finding inspiration in other people's style as a way to kind of help guide you and what you like and maybe even what you don't like. Really just finding your way through those, those few things can get you started down the path.

Maureen

Thank you so much. And where can listeners find you?

Tina

So you can find me at Semi-Sustainable on Substack and Tina Loup on Pinterest.

Maureen

Awesome, I'll make sure to include links to both of those in the show notes.

Tina

Thank you!

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Tina for joining us today!

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Today's guest is Rachel Margaret, a personal style and beauty YouTuber. She’s known for her humor, great style, and ability to eloquently tackle complex style challenges like, can we experience contentment with our wardrobes? She also loves thrifting, and playing with color. Yep, you’re gonna love her. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. Through conversations with inspiring guests, we explore how to tune into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.

Maureen

Welcome to the podcast! I have been a really big fan of your YouTube channel, Rachel, Margaret, for a while now. I just heard that you started only a year ago.

Rachel

Yeah. January, February of last year. Yeah.

Maureen

Wow. So can you share a little bit about what your channel is about and how you got started?

Rachel

Well, I think I've always wanted to do something like that, at least since I became an adult, I wanted to do something creative. But I'm a perfectionist, and I've always kind of held myself back. And so about a year ago, I just uploaded a Project Pan video, because I knew if I overthought it, I was just not going to do it. So I just uploaded a Project Pan, and I've been kind of trying to just be consistent and do it ever since.

And it's slowly evolved over time. Now, I would say that it's mainly about developing a relationship with consumerism and style that flows from a place of contentment and joy.

And I really struggled with compulsive shopping in my own life. And I also thought it might just be helpful for me to share my own thoughts for me really, and then also hopefully, for other people too.

Maureen

Yeah, absolutely. All of that really comes through in your videos, this idea of contentment. And I think it's such a positive way to deal with what can be a tricky subject which is like, struggling with overconsumption. To that point, I think it can be kind of hard to discern when we're shopping the right amount, or when we're shopping too much, according to like, maybe our own preferences. For you personally, what did shopping compulsively feel like? How did you know that was something you wanted to address.

Rachel

Yeah, it is a fine line to walk. I think it can be really hard to know what health looks like in so many areas of our life. But you know, in shopping with shopping in particular. I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or I guess, to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial. I guess, just to clarify. I've never been diagnosed with a shopping addiction or compulsive shopping, or anything like that, because I think that the behaviors exist on a spectrum, and I'm sure that there are people who deal with it much more severely than I do.

I think for me, a really good gauge of the healthiness of a particular action is my ability to pick up or put down that action as I please. Or to use a different analogy, you'd like to turn up or turn down the dial.

Personally, I began to clock my relationship with shopping as compulsive when I would be shopping for some normal reason, and you know I had the dial turned up a little bit and I would recognize, okay, it's enough now, and I would go to turn the dial down, and I would be unable to and it was kind of like I was thinking about this last night as I was falling asleep, but it's kind of like being caught in an undertow in the ocean, in a rip current. Has that ever happened to you?

Maureen

Thankfully, no.

Rachel

It's happened to me, and it can be really scary. It's such a strong current. And I think what they'll teach you. If you get caught in an undertow is to try and swim direct. Well, don't try actually to swim directly into shore, because if you do, you'll get worn out, the undertow will be stronger than you. Instead, swim parallel to the shore until you get out of the rip current, and then you can swim back. So it's kind of like that for me when I'm in. I call it like a shopping spiral like any episode. I'm able to sense that the action is compulsive or distinct from regular shopping behaviors, because I'm no longer just swimming in the ocean. There's like another force outside of my own logic, my own discernment, my willpower. and it's acting upon me, and it's pulling me out to sea, preventing me or making it much harder for me to do what I would like to do, which is to swim back to shore. So that's kind of what it feels like, and that's what I'm working on, which is just keeping my hand on the dial, and making sure that I'm connected enough with myself to be able to turn the dial up or down as I see fit.

Maureen

I mean, you have such a beautiful way of speaking. And what a great analogy this idea of the rip current. It's such a great way of thinking about it, because to your point, it's not about putting a label on, or some sort of diagnosis. Because I think that can be, you know, very overwhelming. It can be overly medical. It really takes you out of your own experience in your own, of what you're like, what you're feeling and what you're struggling with.

And so almost, I think it's so important to to teach ourselves what our threshold for compulsive behavior looks like, because it may be, you know, compulsive behavior for one person is like potentially much smaller in comparison to someone else. But that doesn't mean that it still doesn't feel out of sync. We all have our own threshold. So I think that's the main reason I wanted to ask you is like, how how can we learn what that feels like for us? And I mean just what a what a great answer. And also some ocean-safe swimming advice. I didn't have that on my Bingo card, but great reminder for the upcoming summer season!

At the end of last year, at the end of 2024, you shared a really authentic raw video about only keeping your favorite clothes. And what that taught you. You start that video with, “In the past, I wouldn't have said that I was very self-critical, or that I didn't trust myself, but I have a closet full of other people's opinions and preferences that proves otherwise,” for anyone who hasn't had a chance to watch that video yet, can you share how you came to this realization?

Rachel

Yeah, absolutely. I well, I feel like I've come to this realization in the past. I've learned. you know, it was so many of the things that we need to learn in life. We learn it. I learned it then, and then I've had to learn it again and again and again, and each time you learn it it gets deeper and deeper and more settled within you, and it actually starts to become a part of you. So it's not just something that's in your head, but it's something that you really believe and act out of.

Just for context, a few months ago, I stumbled across this really beautiful wooden wardrobe, and while I was out thrifting, and it, it led to this whole series of epiphanies and realizations, and one of those. One of those realizations was just a desire for fewer things, I think, or for, like a more curated selection of things, my favorite things. And I've known that on some level I've recognized that desire within myself, but I've struggled to implement it like there's always reasons to have more to keep that shirt or that pair of pants just in case right like. Or I gain weight, or I get invited to this very specific kind of event. You know, it's like you can always find a reason to keep the maybe items, even though they're just so-so. But there was something about seeing that wardrobe that day, and having this vision before me of a life in a closet that included only my favorite things. and it really gave me an impetus, I guess, to like shed that outer layer that I've always held on to and so, as I was decluttering this most recent time, and I guess also in previous declutters, but I could really see the parts of my wardrobe that were not reflective at all of my own preferences and desires, but of someone else's. and this might be embarrassing to admit, but for many items in my closet. I could actually tell you like, Oh, yeah, I purchased that when I was following so and so, or I got that when I was binging her videos, and it just became exceedingly clear that I was in a habit of seeking legitimacy for my style by copying the style of others.

And I think that that is very normal. It's really natural, you know, and a lot of ways subconscious like when you're 1st starting out finding your style. It's hard to know where to begin, and and it makes sense that you would start by copying what you see. It's like trying something on like a persona or a silhouette or a color palette. You have to trial and error those things. But I mean, yeah, experimentation is necessary. It's necessary to learn ourselves and develop our preferences. It's just that for me. I think that experimentation began to flow solely from and style opinions of other people. And yeah, I just kind of used that realization to trace the line back and to see what was true. Which is that I didn't seem to trust myself. I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing, and that's why and how I came to that conclusion.

I didn't consider my style preferences as legitimate enough to be the source of my experimentation and my purchasing.

Maureen

That’s so powerful. This idea of you know, we're delegitimizing our own preferences. And I say we, because, same like I still relate. I mean, there are so many different people like influencers that I have really fallen deep into a rabbit hole around, and I just want to copy exactly what they have, even when they are saying don't buy what I buy like. Sometimes they would even say that. And I'd be like, I don't care. I'm gonna do it, anyway, you know, or like. it's just to your point. It's human nature. We want to just try stuff on. And you know, especially when we're unsure of what we want. It can be easier to just be like, oh, I'll just try this then. But : I like to say everyone has personal style, like we're not not getting dressed. We're getting dressed. We're putting on clothing. And so when we say we don't have style, we're saying, maybe our style isn't as good as someone else's, or maybe it doesn't resonate with us in some way which either one is fine. But I think, like what I. What resonated with so much about your video is like. we have the opportunity to just say that my taste and my preferences are enough. And that's okay. And I just I never really heard anyone say it that way before. So I just I really want to appreciate and acknowledge like how powerful that was. And I appreciate you, you sharing that.

In that video and in videos since, you seem to be glowing in a way that you hadn't before, and I don't necessarily mean physical appearance, but I mean more like like an energetic kind of thing. But I would just love to hear like, an update? How are you feeling now? Are you still feeling that kind of energy that you had at the time like, how was getting dressed feeling? Once you had that realization?

Rachel

It's feeling really good. It's feeling really good. Actually, recently I went out thrifting for my birthday.

Maureen

Happy birthday!

Rachel

Another kind of like mini-wardrobe epiphany while I was shopping, and I just realized how I wanted to be more playful with my clothes, and, you know, enjoy color more, and I've tried to figure out how to do that in the past, but I never really found a way that clicked with me. It always felt a little bit inauthentic. And it's probably because I was trying to do it the way another person does it, you know. But yeah, that's kind of where, I'm at recently is just really feeling a lot of freedom around being creative and using my wardrobe as a source of expression, and also just not taking it too seriously. You know it can be. It can be hard to do. It's funny. I mean, it's just clothing, but it can be. It can feel like you really want to figure it out and and have something that works and have it be all certain. But it's it's just not. It's a lot of like playing.

Maureen

Oh, random question. I'm curious, if you relate to this at all like in the past, I will have bought something or been drawn to something. And then I'm like disgusted with myself. And I'm like, Oh. why did I like that like that's so like weird, or that's so bad…Or even like this like striped shirt that I'm wearing today. Like I like it now. But when I bought it, I was like, Okay, this is really cool, like, I really like how I'm gonna wear this. And then, like a year later, I was really into very Scandi minimalism. And I was like, I can't believe I bought this like pink striped shirt with a gold thread like how gross is that? I mean, I'm just curious like, do you ever have you ever had purchases like that where you're like? I don't know what I was thinking, but you actually like the item.

Rachel

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think it can. Well, it happens for me when I get into like about watching a particular person with a particular style. And suddenly I'm looking at my closet through the filter of that other Yes, style, and I'm like they would never wear that right. Not be good style, right like. And I. And again, it's not as I don't think it's as conscious as that, you know, right. Like we go in our closet and think that exact thing. I think it's very under the surface and yeah, hidden away. But I definitely have experienced that, because then I'll come out of that bout of following that person. And suddenly I like it again. So what’s going on there?

Maureen

I mean, I hear that just as like one person style rabbit hole is not good for us. It's not. And it's like we gotta we gotta balance out our inspiration sources.

So let's talk a little bit about what you do wear. So I'm getting to the point where I'm trying to care more about why people wear stuff instead of what, so that I can have a little bit more detachment. So I would just kind of love to hear. How do you decide what to buy and what to wear.

Rachel

Oh, my God, Yes, that's such a good question. I've had so much fun like looking through your notes and answering these questions, because it's like a good mental exercise. I don't really know, you know the answer to that. I didn't know the answer to that going in. So it's just.

Maureen

It's not an easy one.

Rachel

Like I mentioned recently, I was thrifting for my birthday, and I went into the dressing room, and I tried on this combination that was just slightly I don't know. Out of my comfort zone like a little funkier. A little more fun, more playful. And it was like something clicked in my brain. I can't explain that and then make a Youtube video about it, though to try to explain it somehow. But yeah, I just started to understand. I just started to have a sense of how I wanted to play with color, how I wanted to add playfulness in a lot of ways. It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else. And it has been so wonderful. It's been so fun, it's such a different way of approaching clothing.

It was the first time in recent memory that I can remember having that inspiration come from myself as opposed to somewhere else.

Just to answer the question. I have criteria you know, that I think about when I'm wanting to add something in. But I think for the current phase, the current iteration of my wardrobe. It definitely has to start with that feeling of joyfulness when I put something on. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm looking for the fanciest clothes, you know, clothes feel amazing for a lot of different reasons. A cozy sweater, you know, isn't necessarily going to make us feel the same reason like feel amazing, for the same reason that a fantastic dress or a power suit. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't deserve a place in our closet if it makes us feel good, you know. So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign.

So I think, firstly, it's just kind of that checking with myself and seeing if the item has that intangible quality of joyfulness. Like, if it makes me want to sing, then that's a good sign.

Maureen

Oh, singing, that's new! Okay. I haven't thought about that! Are you a singer?

Rachel

No, not a good one, not a good one. More just, if it brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness. I think that that's what I mean. And I can tell when I put on something, and I feel that way. And then that probably really greatly overlaps with the second thing that I thought about, which is, does it suit me like, does it suit my life? You know I've lived enough life, and I've done enough experimentation, I think, with my wardrobe to have a realistic sense of what works for me and what doesn't. So colors, silhouettes, lifestyle considerations, all of that. But it's got to check all the boxes, you know, and it doesn't. It doesn't mean that I'm never going to go out of my comfort zone. But I think that there are ways that we can play and experiment while still keeping the practicalities in mind. And I find, when I don't keep those practicalities in mind. I regret it, and I never end up wearing the new thing. If it doesn't suit me, then suit my life. So that's a big part about. yeah, just a big factor in deciding what I bring in what I wear.

If [a garment] brings out kind of a silliness, a goofiness, a confidence, a I don't know, a light heartedness.

And then, lastly, I think it is the question of does it work with what I already have like? When I'm considering adding something in, I try to think of at least 5 different outfits I can create with that new item from the things I already have, and it's got to come really easily, like if I can. If I can come up with three outfits. But then I'm racking my brain to create more. Then it's going to be a great addition, you know, to my wardrobe. It's probably more of a fantasy piece, or like, I like the idea of it. It's 80% of the way there. But there's something something missing. So yeah, it really has to work with what I already have.

Maureen

Yeah, I'd love to go back to kind of one of the points that you made about trying to figure out how you want to play with color. I really relate to this. I've done so much experimentation. I really learned so much of what doesn't work for me, and I got to a place where I was like oh, maybe I've discerned a little too much, and things are starting to feel a little bit like same same, and you know, not getting the kind of versatility that I was hoping for. So can you talk a little bit about how how you balance this idea of knowing your preferences while staying open to things that you haven't before like, what about that experimentation with color today maybe feels different than experimentation with color you've done before?

Rachel

Well, some of it, I do think, is those filters of other people's style, removing those as much as possible, because I I think in the past when I looked at color. I've been like, neon, or, you know, gross like, just just because I think I yeah. Well, black and beige and white are cool. Right? That's what cool girls wear. And you know, I don't know just really letting those ideas infiltrate. And it's just what's trending. It's just, you know, this kind of. And if black and beige and white make you feel incredible, then I think, go for it, you know. But yeah, I think some of it is just trying, if possible, to limit how much consumption of that of that inspiration from other people, or at least balancing it with how much we play with the things that we that we have and what's what's ours, you know.

And then the other thing I think like if I'm thinking about adding something in it's maybe balancing, not playing playing enough and not playing too much. So, for example, if I'm going to add a pop of color. Then I'm going to make sure that the shirt is a silhouette that I know. I feel amazing in. For example, making sure that it is like two-thirds of the things that I feel comfortable with, and one-third experimentation, I think that that can help to increase the chances that it will work, or at least increase the chances that you'll actually know if you like that color. Because what if you're trying a shirt and it's not your silhouette you're not going to really be able to discern if it's your color, because the you know, it's getting jumbled. So I just focus on making sure that it's if it was. If this was a white piece I would grab for it, you know, and then I just change one thing about it.

Maureen

That's such a good example. And definitely, something I can relate to, as far as like, that two-thirds, one-thirds different is like within a category or an item, you know, either the color needs to be consistent, maybe the neckline or or the silhouette in some way, but just one of those things might change that makes a lot of sense to me, and I've certainly been experiencing that myself with like realizing that all my t-shirts are white, and I'd like to have a navy t-shirt, or I'd like to have a white t-shirt that's gray, but also a turtleneck, and so like to that point. It's like pretty close to what I have, but just like a tweak on it with the color, or that it's a turtleneck instead of a crew neck. So that makes sense to me. And I definitely relate to that idea of, light tweak but still following within, falling within what you already know you like.

Rachel

Yeah, and you're kind of like walking out on a limb, you know, when you're experimenting, so you can only do it one step at a time. You don't want to jump all the way to the end of the limb, and you know it's I think it's good to just make those small changes. Though it's hard to do. You know, it's like what everyone says. For instance, when you buy a house, or when you, you know, don't get everything at once. Don't just furnish everything. Wait and take your time, and I think it's the same. There's you can always benefit from going a little slower.

Maureen

Totally totally. We talked a little bit about how it feels in your body to to try something on it maybe feels a little bit lighter, or you feel I think you said a little bit more like silly or or just kind of like, yeah, that lightness. Are there any other like physical indicators that might tell you that something is for you like specific texture, fit, etc, that help you decide what to buy or not?Rachel

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I've noticed this more since having kids like having big having major body changes just makes you more sensitive to the fact that you know I used to be that when I reached into my closet I basically knew how everything was going to fit me, but with each subsequent child my body has shifted, and especially with the 3rd and you know, 6 months after having her, it was like I I just didn't have any certainty that I could reach into my closet and know what I was getting, that it would fit me, that it would make me feel good all of that. So just doing the work there, taking the time to adjust and and not just I don't know, kind of dig my heels in and be like, well, this worked for me before, or, you know, taking the time to care for myself, my new body. And I think the main thing I can think of in terms of style is just having something that's high waisted enough. I'm really tall and and something. There's something about having a rise that's high enough that hits me at the small of my waist. And for me, that's like it's 12 inches plus for the rise. Or it is not hitting me at the time I waste, and you know it's a small detail I was about to say. It's a silly detail. It's not silly, it's small, but it makes a big difference in how I feel, and so I don't know just paying attention to the little preferences, and and I don't know kind of like we're talking about that legitimacy of like nothing. It's not. It's not small. If you don't like the texture of that shirt. If you don't like the way that pattern is, let it count, let it matter. Let it. You're the one who has to wear the clothes. So it matters, and it counts.

Maureen

Yeah. Two thoughts come to mind with that one being, I think, like having children is such a good example of like extreme body change. And I just want to say for anyone that's listening like like me, that hasn't had kids, but is in like a female body and has experienced a lot of change, or even really anybody. And he's experienced a lot of change. I just want to acknowledge that the human body is not stagnant, and it's almost like we're we're bringing this, speaking from my own perspective and kind of what I heard from you, too. It's like there are phases where we think that we know what we're getting. And then, when something doesn't fit the way that it used to, it feels like it's wrong, and it's our fault. I don't know. You didn't say that specifically, but that's certainly how I would feel is like, oh, I didn't have a baby like, why is my body changing in this way? And then I felt a lot of shame around that. And so I just want to acknowledge like that's such a great example. And also like we can have really big body changes that are not connected to like creating life, just for anyone that relates to that.

Rachel

Well, to be honest, my, I haven't gained…I didn't gain much weight in my pregnancies. All of my body change would happen in the postpartum dealing with the emotional, the emotional toll of having a baby. It was a hundred percent, something that I could very easily feel shameful about, because it was my, you know, choices around food, my choices around movement. My, you know, whatever it might be. it wasn't necessarily because of the hormones or something. So I totally agree that it can happen for a hundred different reasons. Our bodies are shifting all of the time, and your body always deserves care. Your clothes are meant to, you know fit you, and not the other way around.

Maureen

I think, as a collective. We're we're coming around to that idea finally, finally. And I love it. I love it. Let's talk about your style evolution. Have you gone through any memorable style phases?

Rachel

I definitely think my style has evolved. Thank goodness, but I think the main thing I notice when I look back on old pictures is that I was never really a risk taker, with my style like I wouldn't say that I ever had a definable aesthetic. For example, I was into Emo and Indie bands in High school. But I didn't have a wardrobe to match that, you know. I typically fall on the spectrum of I love to ideate and dream, but I've struggled with how to bring my thoughts out of my head and into reality. So probably the biggest way that my style has evolved is that I'm actually taking the vision that I have in my head and acting on it. And I'm getting more and more comfortable with expressing in that way, taking style slightly less seriously. Maybe, like things don't have to be perfect. It's supposed to be fun. And it's okay to go out on a limb. It's okay to trust your preferences. And it's equally okay to walk back from a limb that you were out on and say, you know, that wasn't for me. So maybe I'm just getting more comfortable, I think, with the style as a form of expression, and it's taken me a long time to get there.

Maureen

One of the things I just heard you say is you felt that there was some sort of gap between, how you were hoping that you were dressing, and how things what you actually wore. Could you maybe speak a little bit more about that? I want to understand that better.

Rachel

Yeah, I think that there was a few things going on. Probably I think one of it is one of the things is perfectionism. Thinking that I had to have it all worked out in my head before I stepped out and did the thing. Whether it was wearing the outfit starting the YouTube channel, doing the you know, whatever it is, always feeling like, I needed to be more prepared and never feeling prepared enough to actually start and to express, and I think that there's some fear with that as well like fear of getting it wrong. Fear of being perceived. Perfectionism is just a type of fear. I think that that was probably a big factor, and always really admiring the people who did make bold choices and had something I don't know had something to say like they had a point of view. I think I was really stuck for a long time in just being everything to everybody, kind of general, and nothing very specific and really confusing… I don't know how I would describe it as confusing that with love like that, that's what's most loving to the people around me is to be something kind of general.

And actually, I think that there's a lot of joy. And yeah, that it's really very loving to actually be yourself and to be honest, and to express, because you're actually trusting the people around you with Yeah, you're you're not. If you're not being vulnerable. If you're not showing yourself, then, I don't know you're not giving anyone anything of value be something specific, I think, is what I would say.

Maureen

You just said so much great stuff in there, I'm like, how do I even like? How do I even go from here like I mean, I so relate to the perfectionism. And you know, maybe I heard a little bit of people pleasing.

Rachel

For sure.

Maureen

I don't know if you relate to this, but I'll just say, from my experience, like, growing up Evangelical Christian in the Bay Area, which is like such an oxymoron. But like I grew up Southern Baptist, and so much of the culture was around like being humble and not really trying to like. Take up too much space. Right? It's like, if you are you don't want to be too much. You don't want to take up too much space like almost this feeling of you need to make yourself smaller so that other people can be bigger, and that's what like humbleness or like love looks like. And I just think that certainly related to how I felt around fashion is like. On this one hand I wanted to be like, really this Fashion girl, and very like expressive. But, on the other hand, I had this part of me that was like. But don't take up too too much space like you should be smaller and I don't know. I just felt like that. Whole like economy was just so confusing. It's like, where do I fit with all this? And I think, like, just for myself, I've kind of landed at this middle place, which is like, I'm not super into pattern stripes, notwithstanding. And I really like to have really funky, like silhouette and shape, and just being more expressive in that way. So there's a little bit of like that quiet and a little bit of that loud but I don't know. I just. I kind of heard, like some nugget of that like shrinking or playing small. I don't know if any of that relates.

Rachel

Yeah, well, I I grew up as a Christian as well, and I am currently a Christian. But I do think a hundred percent that it can get confusing. It can get really confusing this message of like make sure that you're loving, you know. And and I don't know. It just gets really bogged down with a lot of… I believe, like misconception about what that means. Yes, you know, and what is actually loving. What does love look like? And for me it was really my relationship with God that freed me from that, because I felt like I had to be God like I had to love all these people really, really well, and part of that was really playing small. But actually, I don't have to do that. You know, I can just be myself. And that has been yeah, just so incredibly freeing across the board. And I do feel like style is one of those areas where I get this release, you know, to just again. Just the joyfulness, the be joyful, be free, take up space, be something specific, like all of that. I don't know. Yeah, it's something I feel like. God has told me, you know, and. And it's very saddens me. I think that it's gotten so mixed up or can be.

Maureen

Yeah, and to be clear, like, I think what I was sharing wasn't necessarily what I would understand from God, you know, like so much of what I was experiencing was the culture around God and the culture around Jesus, and I think that you can have, a Christian faith that is like very loving and accepting. And you can also have a Christian faith that is really structured and controlling. And I think it's really about acknowledging that that religion and that experience of the religion is very specific and can be what you make it, and the community that you seek out around it. And I think just some of the things that I picked up again were more cultural than like, maybe. So, I just wanted to clarify, an observation, I would say.

Rachel

For sure, for sure. I think it is very easy for people to move from a place of fear and control. And I yeah, I see that a lot in Christian culture as well.

Maureen

And it happens outside Christian culture, too.

Rachel

Sure outside of Christian culture, too. So it's… It's people.

Maureen

It's people.

Rachel

Yeah, and really trying to move from love as much as possible. It makes a big difference.

Maureen

Yeah, yeah, totally. Oh, I remembered what I was going to say earlier, which is, basically, you were talking about the rise on your jeans. This is my PSA: If you don't have a clothing like measure tape, get one to anyone listening, get a measuring tape, and then, if you're shopping online like secondhand, or if you're going to a secondhand store, get out that tape measure and see, will this fit me the way that I want it to?

Rachel

Do you know the do you know the trick about putting the waist, the waist of the pants around your neck?

Maureen

I haven't done it, but I have heard it. Does it work?

Rachel

Does that mean that our necks are half the size of our waist?

Maureen

That's kind of what I'm hearing. That's my takeaway.

Rachel

Kind of weird, but it works. If you put, if you put it around your neck and it fits comfortably, then it will fit your waist.

Maureen

I should try that with the jeans that I have, and see if it works.

Rachel

Yeah, do a little test.

Maureen

So we're recording this towards the start of 2025. Only 2 months in. But, anyway, do you have any style or personal goals that you're hoping to work towards this year?

Rachel

Yeah, I mean, I think it connects a little bit with what I've already shared. But I'm excited to be more playful. with my closet this year, and to go out on more limbs. And again, I think, to to not take getting dressed too seriously, and maybe at the same time to take myself more seriously.

Maureen

Oh!

Rachel

You know, have more fun with clothing. Take more risks, because that's a desire that I find within myself. Like to do that as much as possible, and as much as possible to give legitimacy to my preferences and desires in the area of style. And yeah, I'm just looking forward to stretching like the creative muscles and having fun with my clothing this year.

Maureen

Wow! Are there any like specific things that you're drawn towards, that? You want to try this year? Or is it more just like a general openness to see what happens.

Rachel

I love putting together two things that are unexpected. Like, I love interesting color combinations. I love playing with textures and playing like combining styles in a way that isn't maybe an automatic reach, an automatic go to. So I think I'm looking forward to that, just combining things in a way that I wouldn't necessarily normally do. But I don't know. Kind of do that, and then see what happens. See what I can create, see what happens. Maybe do some makeup, not makeup dress up playtime in my closet. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I think interesting combinations, unexpected combinations is something that I'm really drawn to, and something that I want to explore. And maybe also jewelry. And I love fun, jewelry, and earrings especially. I never do anything with my hair. I never do anything with my hair, and I think that hair can be a really big part of style and kind of overlooked or just thought of last. And so maybe playing with my hair more. Yeah, those are some things.

Maureen

Cool, cool. Well, if you feel like sharing any of that on your YouTube channel, I will happily, happily follow along. So on that note. Where can listeners find you?

Rachel

They can find me at Rachel Margaret. That's the name of my YouTube channel. And I'm not on any other social medias, because it’s vicious.

Maureen

Yeah, yeah, I will make sure to include the link to that in the show notes.

Rachel

Awesome. Can I answer the question about the..?

Maureen

Yes, I don't know why I'm missing this question! I did this yesterday, too. I'm so sorry. I just enjoying our conversation so much, I’m trying not to look at my notes too much.

What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Rachel

Don't overthink it. And I say that as someone who has definitely overthought it overthinks it all the time. But you know what you like. You know what you like on some level, you do, you? Really, you know, and of course I think you might know more in the future. Right? That tends to be how it goes. But, you have to work with the information that you have right now, and I just think, trust your intuition when you're getting dressed you can't mess it up. There's always another chance to get dressed tomorrow. And you're going to learn so much along the way like this is an as you go, type of thing, so you have to learn it as you go. Nobody's born with good personal style. You have to learn it as you go. The trial and error of it all is necessary. So, try new things. Trust yourself, and keep getting dressed.

Maureen

Incredible, incredible! I love it. It's so true, it's so true. Trust yourself.

Rachel

So true. Just get there.

Maureen

Yeah, trust yourself. Get dressed. See what happens. Awesome.

Well, thank you for reminding me, because I love that question [about advice].

Rachel

Yeah, I love it, too. I just, I really wanted to share. I was like, what would I want to tell my younger self?

Maureen

Oh, yes, yes, and also, maybe it's something you have to learn over and over again.

Rachel

Oh, for sure.

Maureen

Well, as we said, I'll I'll include a link to your YouTube channel on the show notes for anyone that wants to follow along and thank you again for for joining the podcast today, I really appreciate it.

Rachel

Yeah, it was so fun to talk to you, Maureen.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Rachel Margaret, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie.

In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Thanks and see you next week!

Artist, writer and Caribbean-Colombian woman, Laura De Valencia Kirk joins me for today’s episode. I so enjoyed talking with her; she’s exactly as insightful and fascinating in real-life as you’d expect from her writing. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Maureen

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition, so that we can dress authentically and live fully.

Today's guest is the writer of La Deeply Shallow, a Substack newsletter that somehow manages to be both philosophical and playful, ultimately acting as an open invitation to play with fashion and take from fashion what you wish and leave the rest. You've seen her styling sweatpants like never before, artfully weaving social commentary into posts ostensibly about clothing, and generally being an editorial queen. Welcome to the show, Laura De Valencia Kirk.

Laura

Thank you for having me. I'm very honored to be here.

Maureen

I'm so excited to hear more from you. So, as I already mentioned, your newsletter, La Deeply Shallow, is so beautiful. For anyone who hasn't read your work yet, would you introduce the concept and your approach to writing about fashion and personal style?

Laura

Yeah. So when I created La Deeply Shallow when I started it, it was actually as as a Substack. It started a long time ago, about 5 years ago. But then I kind of abandoned it because I wasn't really sure where it was going, and it wasn't really about fashion. It was more about what I was researching as part of my MFA, as an artist. And then last year I just had this impulse to come back to it and write, and I think there was a lot of thoughts that were kind of condensing, and they finally found like an avenue, and that was La Deeply Shallow. In La Deeply Shallow, I bring to the surface the the importance of fashion which has historically been considered as a feminine topic, and hence not important, you know, as usual. So I honor fashion. I try to demonstrate how transcendental it can be, not only for showing who we are, but also to construct ourselves in the process of getting dressed, which I think it's the core or the most important aspect of it, and my approach is very intuitive. I write every week. I tend not to have things in storage, for, you know, several weeks ahead, which I probably should, because it would be, it would make my less anxious, but it also keeps me on my toes, and writing every week helps me be attuned to the conversation. What's going on, and also how clothes feel in my body. So, it kind of helps me be more present. That's the whole concept. And I think I hope that that's being transmitted and people feel it, and it helps them also be more attuned to to their own act of getting dressed and daily.

Maureen

Yeah, I mean to your hopes—absolutely. There's something kind of almost magical about the way that you write… It's so like, deep and complex, but somehow effortless at the same time, which, of course, I don't mean that you're not spending time and effort on it, but just as a reader, it's so easy to engage with. I just feel this almost like kind of lightness on very complicated topics, and specifically the way that you incorporate social and political commentary into your pieces. I mean, it's just very like it's kind of full circle to hear that when you started the column, it wasn't even about fashion at all, and I can see that, it’s about fashion, but it's about so much more. How do you decide when to incorporate this kind of commentary versus just play with with clothing?

Laura

Well, I think it's all woven into who I am, because I think fashion is not just about the clothes is all kinds of things, and it probably has something to do with the fact that I have multiple interests. And I listen to all kinds of political discourse from all sides of the spectrum, philosophy, lectures podcasts all while I scroll on The Real Real! It's something I do. And I don't know if it's probably a good mental image of how my mind works and how I am wired, and I think most of us are multidisciplinary. We have lived so many lives, we are multifaceted, we, we contain multitudes. And, so, I think that that is just going to transpire in how I write.

There's another aspect of it that simplicity or that lightness that you talk about. I think it's from the fact that I'm always translating, because I'm always, I tend to think in Spanish, and then I translate. So I think there's in that translation. I'm trying to understand my thoughts. But I'm also trying to find a way to be legible in a different language, and I think that also makes me be a little bit more. Just clear. I guess the fact that my language is not as sophisticated in English, also makes it be a little bit more clear.

Maureen

I highly doubt that. [Editors note: I meant that I think her work in English is so sophisticated!]

Laura

I don't know. Maybe that I would love to, you know, to figure out what it is. But I I make a big effort to make myself legible. And it's immigrant experience, and of constantly speaking in a different language….And then, yeah, there's always political commentary, and I don't try to do it. I've always made an effort not to be an activist. I respect activists, and I respect what they do. But I think ever since I became an artist, I understood that I wanted to connect more than lecture or impose a point of view, because I am in a point of my life where I'm trying to understand a lot of things. And I'm trying to think with people and think out loud. And I think when I adopt an activist voice, or when people adopt activist voices, there's kind of like a moral superiority or virtue signaling that it's kind of off-putting and prevents that connection that I'm trying to, that I'm trying to create with my audience.

Maureen

Incredibly well said. And I think again, it's really coming across, you know. I feel that that I'm able to engage with your work. You're allowing for a conversation. And, to your point, a lot of think pieces about slow fashion or or activism generally kind of come in with authority. As you know, ‘this is the way it is’, and ‘this is the way we should be thinking.’ And I think what you do so expertly is that you show that process, and you talk about how you got to where you are, and with all the complexity, and you make space for people to agree or disagree with you and have a different experience. And I think that's part of what's so magical about your writing is that I feel like you're bringing people closer rather than pushing them away. To your point, I almost think it's more successful in the way that it's a conversation. It's about connecting rather than being right. It's great to hear that's a strategic thing. It wasn't just necessarily something that happened. But it's a choice that you're making. And it's really happening.

Laura

Yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's also how I conduct myself. I try. As I said before, I try to listen to different points of view on the same issue, and and try to understand where people are coming from. And, I sometimes I may not agree with with a certain side of the spectrum. I mean, that's fine. We're all trying to find the truth, but I don't think I have the revealed truth yet. So that's why I feel like I am still in that exploration.

It's not that I don't assume positions. I think I have certain positions, but I don't think that my ideas and my positions are my identity. I'm always trying to be open to learning new things and understand where people are coming from, and and I'm glad that that comes across, as as you say.

Maureen

Definitely, I think that's why so many people read your posts every week!

Switching a little bit into your personal style…. I'm becoming more interested in the why behind how people dress rather than what we're wearing. In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy or wear, or what not, to buy or wear?

Laura

Yeah, I was thinking about this. This was a great question, and I'm glad that you asked me. I think I'm 100% committed to proportions. I can see some things that I adore in the store online, whatever. And but if the proportions do not work for me, I tend not to wear it in a non aesthetic dimension. I have become sharper at questioning why I like something I grew up in in a very small town with a lot of class bias. And so that class bias was easily reflected in how people dressed. And, it's very tacit. It's not talked about. But, you kind of absorb all that bias and all this, all the signals and and the signs and and the hidden messages that are part of the clothes, and and it takes time, and for me, moving to a different country to realize how much I wasn't questioning where my preference for certain items. What's coming from that bias? And, it's kind of like a little bit of deconstructing to construct again, and to kind of like. Try to mold yourself to who you really are.

And and and yeah, so I think to your question, how do I decide what I wear? What I don't wear? There's definitely an aesthetic dimension. As I said, proportions to me are key. And then also a more non-aesthetic, more personal questioning of Where why do I look this? Why do I like this? And why don't I like it? Is it because something that was instilled in me, or is it because I generally do not do not find it appealing?

Maureen

Hmm, hmm. Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think almost a lifetime question is, how do we decide why we like what we like?

Are there any like specific examples that come to your mind as far as like maybe something that you used to like that once you kind of drilled into it, you realized it doesn't resonate as much now, or vice versa, something that you used to not really appreciate. But now over time, you appreciate more?

Laura

There was a post where I talked about the ruffles, and this kind of very tropical Caribbean chic dresses, with florals and ruffles, and all these things, and at the moment, and back in 2014, I really liked them, and I wore them, and then I kind of rejected them. I felt like they were not part of me. Why was I wearing this? I am more minimal. I've always tend to be to less, to be more masculine and what I find sexy.

But then I realized that there was a lot of bias in in the florals, they are considering where I come from. It's like something, too. Floral is too ‘out there,’ ‘too much,’ too…Just not very elegant. I started peeling the onion on ‘what is elegance? What is chicness? And why, when I like the florals? Why did I like them in 2014. And why didn't I like them before or after? And then I realized that I like the florals and the ruffles and all of this style of dressing, because it was it was being imposed by designers that were regarded as exclusive that were in vogue. And so I was like, oh, so florals are good when they are proposed by certain designers, but are not good. When I see someone on the street in Barranquilla wearing them.

So that was that was a kind of like a revealing moment for me. And there are so many other examples. The cork platforms, which are a staple in my hometown. The jeans without pockets, on the back. Very stable staple in Colombia. Sweatpants. Huge example. Oh, because I'm going to appear lazy, or that I gave up? What is that coming from? Oh, Chanel designer said it. Oh, but is he right? Is there a racial component to that statement? Is there a class component to that statement? So there's a lot of things that I believed were mine that were not mine, and I'm still in the process to peel the onion. It's an ongoing journey.

Maureen

I love, that “there were a lot of things that were mine that were not mine.” I love the empowerment that I hear, which is like we try on different identities. We try on different aesthetics. We take in all these influences, and you know what I just heard in that is, we can take those things off, too. And we can say, what of those things that I've tried out or internalized, how can I let go of those? What a lesson! What a lesson! And it doesn't just apply to clothing as we've been talking about. It applies to so many different kind of perspectives.

I don't know if you're aware of this. I just thought of this example like the Roman, like statues and and columns. And what's the word like? Busts used to be like super colorfully painted. Did you know about this?

Laura

Yes! Great book called Chromophobia. I don't know if you you heard of it. I recommend it because that one also opened my eyes a lot to color. It's pretty much how this whole minimalistic movement instilled in us the idea that neutral colors and muted palettes and subdued silhouettes were elegant, and whatever was colorful was not. And there's a huge, bias instilled in that statement. The book Chromophobia. I think it's David Bachelor. He wrote it, and he talked about Le Corbusier. And a lot of of these designers, that kind of like created these this paradigm in a way. But yeah, the Roman statues is a great example. We find them beautiful and elegant, and they're white, but they they were not white, they they used to be colorful, and the eyes had color, that's where it comes from!

Maureen

My personal style is a bit of a counterpoint, right? One of the things that I hear from you is that we're interrogating where our influences come from, but we're not inherently rejecting them. We're using discernment. And so, my personal aesthetic is on the somewhat more minimal side. Part of that also has to do with what colors actually look best on my body, and when I wear bright colors you don't see me, [my face] disappears. And so that's totally fine, like, I'm neutral about that. It's fine, but I think if I did have a different complexion, if I had like more extreme features, maybe my aesthetic would be different. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with having an aesthetic that that makes sense with my body, and allows my face to be seen as opposed to just my clothing.

Laura

And I think that's where the extreme discourse tries to, like I want to say, tell you what to do. Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal. And and I ask myself these questions, and I say, Well, there's something in my history that determined this, which is my Catholic upbringing, and how I saw my mom getting dressed.

Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal?

My mom was always dressed in pants and a bottom down shirt to go to the office, and she dressed differently than all the women in Barranquilla, who dressed like Sofia Vergara, and and Shakira, and they were always full of makeup. So, I grew up with this model with, you know, my mom. And, so I try to trace where my taste for this kind of clothes came from. I interrogated it, but I feel like when people tell me you should wear more color. I have the certainty that it's my choice to dress. The way I dress is not coming from that class bias or that color, or that it's coming from my history, from my mom, from my heritage, from an influence I had as a child.

And there's another thing that it's the this expectations that Latin women need to dress certain way, or they need to look certain way, or you don't dress Latin enough. Well, what does that [look like]? What what is that? What is what is Colombian aesthetic? What is Latin aesthetic? Is it something you saw on the TV? Is it that you created from seeing Salama Hayek in movies? Because it's not a monolith. Being a Latin woman is so many things, including what I am choosing to do. So it's important to question where our choices are coming from. But when we make peace with those answers. We don't need to try to change them, just to appease certain discourses, such as the class or the race discourse. Because in your case you don't like coloring you, and it doesn't mean you're racist or classist, or that you're trying to, I don't know. Assert your whiteness. It's just simply that you don't like how you look on color. And that's totally okay. It's an aesthetic choice. And we are free to make those aesthetic choices. So it's complex.

Maureen

I mean, this is so validating, and I wasn't going into this expecting that. But you know, at the end of the day, I think sometimes when we are interested in fashion, we make fashion mean so much, and it does. It means a lot. But it doesn't mean everything. And, there's a two-dimensionality to sharing images of our clothing online. And what we're wearing. But when we're out in the world like that's where we show how we respect other people. That's where we show that we aren't trying to assert our whiteness. Or, maybe that we dress a certain way that would say otherwise, but when we act out in the world we are like. It's just one aspect of this, like three-dimensional personality. And, whatever I try to write, and I certainly see it in your writing is this this nuance and multiplicity and dimensionality? So I resonate with that so much.

Laura

That's so profound way you just said, Yeah, clothes are. Because I started saying, I want to talk about how fashion is transcendental and important and valuable, but it's also not sometimes. Well, it's also not. It's also fun and play, and there's room for that. It's not the cure for cancer. It's also. But when I'm in the worst moments I getting dressed is what makes me keep going. You know, it can have very powerful effect on the Psyche, but at the same time we need to recognize that it's not everything about a person. As you say, we act in the world, and that's also part of who we are. It's not just what we're wearing.

Maureen

Oh, I feel like we could talk about that for a lifetime. Let's keep writing!

Going back to how you decide what to wear, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Are there specific textures, fits, or styles? I know you talked about proportion. So maybe talking about that in a little bit more detail, or anything else [around] how you want to feel in your clothes.

Laura

Okay, so, I think I have always leaned or oversized silhouettes, as I mentioned. And I I do recognize that I used to dress in oversized clothes to kind of like conceal certain parts of my body I didn't like. But, now that I am more comfortable with how my body looks. I still dress pretty oversized, but it's not to conceal my body necessarily, but I see it more as an act of sculpting my body, and I think there's immense freedom in sculpting the body through fabric, you know. Play with shapes, elongate, shorten, make the the make the the shoulders wider. I mean all those tricks. It’s almost like like a like a ceramicist playing with clay. You know it's it's not necessarily a quest for flattering. It's more like an intuitive activity that I enjoy a lot. For example, right now, I was thinking that I really love everything that has like that drape like the silk. But I also love having the the scuba material that makes me, that is just static. I mean, I love playing with that kind of thing, too, because it those are different tools to kind of like sculpt and create a cocoon or or there's a writer, she used to be Man Repeller, she created this system of shapes, the palm tree, and and I love how it's not the fruit system from, you know the nineties. It's just like how you can dress to like to highlight certain parts of your body, and it's not for ‘flattering’. I repeat, it's just more like a sculpting exercise! And I really enjoy that as an artist I enjoy it. I know it sounds cliche, but I do see the body as a canvas.

[Editor’s note: Laura is referring to fellow Substack writer, Elizabeth Cardinal Tamkin’s Silhouette System™ and I am now DEEP in this philosophy.)

Maureen

I don't think it's cliche at all, actually. And I think, it's just true, if that's how you approach getting dressed. If that's authentic to you, that’s it…that's the whole thing. And I think that's so cool.

I'm certainly been on a journey myself where I used to really dress for like ‘flattering’ and, my priority was to kind of dress in a way that was like made me a sexual being for other people's like understanding of me. I'm really playing now with, the female gaze, and all I keep thinking about is the types of silhouettes that I want to wear now are so different. And and I love them, and I would not have worn them in the past. I love making space for that like change, and that transition, and being open to changing my mind and being open to things that I thought weren't for me. And it's just really fun. To your point, like, I just got this sweater vest. I cannot stop talking about it. I'm so sorry for everyone, but it's got like kind of a nice. It like makes my shoulders look kind of broad in a great way, and then it like kind of cuts in.

So it just creates like such a cool shape over whatever I put it on with, and like to some degree. Yes, I'm still accentuating some degree of like hourglass, which is fine like I don't care. That's fine, but in so many other ways it's very much not for the male gaze. And so it's just kind of like this wonderful balance of the two, where it's a preferred silhouette, but also kind of more eccentric.

Laura

That was when you talk about the shoulders, I feel like shoulder pads to me are huge, and I hate when they go out of style. I still wear them even when they're out of style, because I think they're so powerful in that interplay of shape. So yeah, those are, those are great tools and resources in in my toolbox.

Maureen

I'm curious what you think about trends just really quickly…I'm ‘pro’ trend. I think we wouldn't be able to make progress. We wouldn't be open to changing our minds about things. And I think I see a lot of discourse about like ‘trends are bad. It's just marketing.’ And it's like, Okay, yes. But also…Can we see the beauty and trends? I don't know. I think one of the hardest things about like when a shoulder pad goes out of style isn't necessarily that they're not cool anymore, but it can be harder to find them. What do you think about trends generally?

Laura

I'm with you, I think trends are a great opportunity to get out of our comfort zone to explore. I have delved into trends, and some of them. It's not that I regret them, but I just realized that they don't fit my lifestyle, or I'm not reaching for for them. Others really stick with me and stay forever like shoulder pads. I mean, I started wearing shoulder pads when Dries Van Noten did this collection, like 10 years ago, and he showed the shoulder pads with a striped shirt, and I recreated it. I didn't buy it. I took a shirt. I cut it, and I put shoulder pads, and I'm like, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is great!’ like in terms of proportions. It creates like this super cool thing that I never would have….I thought it was so 80s, and I discovered something that that's that stick with me. And I think trends are just as I say, a good avenue to discover new things, to get out of our comfort zone, to question or aesthetic. Where is it coming from? And I I think there are like low stakes ways to try trends, and we don't need to jump on all of them. But if you do, that's fine, too.

Where you are in life, in the twenties, you should really try trends. I mean, you should really try everything. Your thirties, maybe you start figuring out, okay, this trend worked for me. What was it that I liked about the trend? Was it the silhouette? Was it how practical it was? And then in your forties you kind of start figuring it out, and you have more discernment. You can tell, okay, this trend is really not going to work for me, but you know I try the the jelly shoe. And I loved it. I think it's so fun. It's just ironic, and I live in Florida. So it's not very ironic for me, but I still make it ironic, how I pair them.

And then there's some other trends, like I tried leopard. And I like it when I wear it. But I don't reach for it that often as I would like, and I don't know what it is. I mean it's it's not. It could be a bias. Oh, I think it's too much, and it's not something I should wear to pick up my kids. Why, what like question? You know, what’s that story?

But yeah, I think trends are fine. Yes, I do not agree with certain influencers pushing trends. In a way that it's hidden, like. If you're if you're gonna tell me to wear this. I also want you to tell me that you have a partnership with the brand. I want you to tell me that you invested in the company that produces the item that you're trying to sell as the new thing. I think that kind of transparency I miss sometimes. But you know, it's not against the trend. It's against the way marketing is conducted, right?

Maureen

And not all trends were necessarily created, equally like some trends are from a brand. But you could also say that some trends probably come from individual people, individual designers. People in high fashion world that are putting things out there and getting people thinking about things in new ways.

Laura

They are creative people. They're designers. And it's their job to think in the future and think about. I mean, it's it's kind of like a way of appreciating their effort to to innovate. So imagine if we think about if we don't care about trends, then I don't think there would be that incentive to, to innovate and to think differently, and and to try and create new things. So as an artist, I think it would be a little bit contradictory for me to not appreciate trends, and what's new.

Maureen

Very fair point. So we talked a little bit about your style evolution with, you know, the 2014 liking florals and then moving away from that. But are there any like memorable phases that you've gone through with your style.

Laura

Think my style has remained pretty consistent. I with, you know, deviations as usual. I think my favorite stage. I think it's my forties, for sure. I think it all comes with the confidence of age, and just not caring so much, but also caring a lot just like you have a little bit more information.

Maureen

Yeah, more information, I agree with that.

What personal or style goals are you working towards this year, if any?

Laura

I think my main goals was is to continue tracking my purchases, and not for self-flagellation, not to feel guilty. It's really to see what I wear, and what was worth spending money on. To me the only way for me to really see what I need. What if there's a gap in my closet is to not shop. Wearing my clothes. Then I can start identifying. Oh, I've been wearing this sweater for all this time, and maybe I need a new sweater because this one is not doing what I wanted to do, because I want a V-neck instead of, you know things like that.

But you only identify those needs when you actually wear your clothes versus just like getting new things and getting distracted with new things and not wearing what you already have. So I'm shopping. I wouldn't say I'm gonna low-buy. I mean, I'm still shopping, but I'm a lot more aware of of what I have in my closet, how to style it different ways to style the same things for different occasions. The whole idea of the bi-furcated closet, how to apply it in my daily life?

And also, I'm saving money because we have projects at home that we want to do. We want to remodel our kitchen. We want to remodel our bathroom, and also I have two daughters, and they also require a lot of clothes like the grow, the bigger they get the more they they require. So it's it's a new expense kind of like versus when they were toddlers. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, if I buy this $500 purse than my daughters cannot get this. So it's kind of like a trade off. So it's both, for you know the economy of my house. And also just be more assertive with with my purchases.

Maureen

I love that idea of being assertive with purchases. That's such a great way of talking about it. And I'm gonna say that, too!

Friend of the podcast, Emily Grady Dodge. She just put up a post was a good reminder about this book I'm Going to Teach You How to Be Rich, and I heard an interview with the author years ago, and then promptly forgot about it.

Basically it's this idea of, if you spend your money on the things that you care about, and don't spend your money on the things you don't care about, you can live a more rich fulfilling life. It's not about learning how to be a millionaire. It's about learning how to live life richly and fully, and the things that you care about or cared about. And so I think when someone does do a low buy or no buy, or is paying attention to what they're spending their money on when it comes to getting dressed. That's part of this whole effort to live fully and and feel, you know. That's such a great way to say it.

Laura

Trade-offs. Resources are not unlimited.

Maureen

Yes, trade-offs!

So, we're coming towards the end. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Laura

I would say, documenting your outfits. Not for performance, not necessarily to look good or to post it on Instagram, but just to keep track, just to have like that visual memory, and and to to remember what was it that made you comfortable? So that from a logistics standpoint.

And then, get interested in things that are not fashion. I think that really enriches your approach to fashion, and that's something that I learned as an artist that when you focus on artists, on on art, only your art could be great, obviously. But when you start focusing on different things. And it could be doesn't have to be anything, you know, like politics or philosophy. It could be gardening. It could be like just trying to inject your your creative endeavors with knowledge from other areas of life, I think, makes it a lot more enriching and and fulfilling. So just, more layered. So it's not just layers of clothes, but also layers of knowledge and and just interest. I think it just makes it a lot more interesting.

Maureen

Well, this was so fun. Where can listeners find you?

Laura

I’m on Instagram, and Substack. And, if you're interested in seeing my artwork, which is like another aspect, I'm at Laudadevalencia.com.

Maureen

I'm definitely gonna check out your artwork. I don't think I've seen it before, so, I'm excited to look at that.

Well, thank you so much. This was so fun!

Laura

Thank you, and I am very, very grateful for this opportunity. And, as I said, these were great questions that I might consider on my own writing.

Maureen

I cannot wait to to read.

Laura

Thank you.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Laura De Valencia Kirk, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Thanks and see you next week!