Artist, writer and Caribbean-Colombian woman, Laura De Valencia Kirk joins me for today’s episode. I so enjoyed talking with her; she’s exactly as insightful and fascinating in real-life as you’d expect from her writing. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Maureen

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe that everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition, so that we can dress authentically and live fully.

Today's guest is the writer of La Deeply Shallow, a Substack newsletter that somehow manages to be both philosophical and playful, ultimately acting as an open invitation to play with fashion and take from fashion what you wish and leave the rest. You've seen her styling sweatpants like never before, artfully weaving social commentary into posts ostensibly about clothing, and generally being an editorial queen. Welcome to the show, Laura De Valencia Kirk.

Laura

Thank you for having me. I'm very honored to be here.

Maureen

I'm so excited to hear more from you. So, as I already mentioned, your newsletter, La Deeply Shallow, is so beautiful. For anyone who hasn't read your work yet, would you introduce the concept and your approach to writing about fashion and personal style?

Laura

Yeah. So when I created La Deeply Shallow when I started it, it was actually as as a Substack. It started a long time ago, about 5 years ago. But then I kind of abandoned it because I wasn't really sure where it was going, and it wasn't really about fashion. It was more about what I was researching as part of my MFA, as an artist. And then last year I just had this impulse to come back to it and write, and I think there was a lot of thoughts that were kind of condensing, and they finally found like an avenue, and that was La Deeply Shallow. In La Deeply Shallow, I bring to the surface the the importance of fashion which has historically been considered as a feminine topic, and hence not important, you know, as usual. So I honor fashion. I try to demonstrate how transcendental it can be, not only for showing who we are, but also to construct ourselves in the process of getting dressed, which I think it's the core or the most important aspect of it, and my approach is very intuitive. I write every week. I tend not to have things in storage, for, you know, several weeks ahead, which I probably should, because it would be, it would make my less anxious, but it also keeps me on my toes, and writing every week helps me be attuned to the conversation. What's going on, and also how clothes feel in my body. So, it kind of helps me be more present. That's the whole concept. And I think I hope that that's being transmitted and people feel it, and it helps them also be more attuned to to their own act of getting dressed and daily.

Maureen

Yeah, I mean to your hopes—absolutely. There's something kind of almost magical about the way that you write… It's so like, deep and complex, but somehow effortless at the same time, which, of course, I don't mean that you're not spending time and effort on it, but just as a reader, it's so easy to engage with. I just feel this almost like kind of lightness on very complicated topics, and specifically the way that you incorporate social and political commentary into your pieces. I mean, it's just very like it's kind of full circle to hear that when you started the column, it wasn't even about fashion at all, and I can see that, it’s about fashion, but it's about so much more. How do you decide when to incorporate this kind of commentary versus just play with with clothing?

Laura

Well, I think it's all woven into who I am, because I think fashion is not just about the clothes is all kinds of things, and it probably has something to do with the fact that I have multiple interests. And I listen to all kinds of political discourse from all sides of the spectrum, philosophy, lectures podcasts all while I scroll on The Real Real! It's something I do. And I don't know if it's probably a good mental image of how my mind works and how I am wired, and I think most of us are multidisciplinary. We have lived so many lives, we are multifaceted, we, we contain multitudes. And, so, I think that that is just going to transpire in how I write.

There's another aspect of it that simplicity or that lightness that you talk about. I think it's from the fact that I'm always translating, because I'm always, I tend to think in Spanish, and then I translate. So I think there's in that translation. I'm trying to understand my thoughts. But I'm also trying to find a way to be legible in a different language, and I think that also makes me be a little bit more. Just clear. I guess the fact that my language is not as sophisticated in English, also makes it be a little bit more clear.

Maureen

I highly doubt that. [Editors note: I meant that I think her work in English is so sophisticated!]

Laura

I don't know. Maybe that I would love to, you know, to figure out what it is. But I I make a big effort to make myself legible. And it's immigrant experience, and of constantly speaking in a different language….And then, yeah, there's always political commentary, and I don't try to do it. I've always made an effort not to be an activist. I respect activists, and I respect what they do. But I think ever since I became an artist, I understood that I wanted to connect more than lecture or impose a point of view, because I am in a point of my life where I'm trying to understand a lot of things. And I'm trying to think with people and think out loud. And I think when I adopt an activist voice, or when people adopt activist voices, there's kind of like a moral superiority or virtue signaling that it's kind of off-putting and prevents that connection that I'm trying to, that I'm trying to create with my audience.

Maureen

Incredibly well said. And I think again, it's really coming across, you know. I feel that that I'm able to engage with your work. You're allowing for a conversation. And, to your point, a lot of think pieces about slow fashion or or activism generally kind of come in with authority. As you know, ‘this is the way it is’, and ‘this is the way we should be thinking.’ And I think what you do so expertly is that you show that process, and you talk about how you got to where you are, and with all the complexity, and you make space for people to agree or disagree with you and have a different experience. And I think that's part of what's so magical about your writing is that I feel like you're bringing people closer rather than pushing them away. To your point, I almost think it's more successful in the way that it's a conversation. It's about connecting rather than being right. It's great to hear that's a strategic thing. It wasn't just necessarily something that happened. But it's a choice that you're making. And it's really happening.

Laura

Yeah, I mean, and it's I think it's also how I conduct myself. I try. As I said before, I try to listen to different points of view on the same issue, and and try to understand where people are coming from. And, I sometimes I may not agree with with a certain side of the spectrum. I mean, that's fine. We're all trying to find the truth, but I don't think I have the revealed truth yet. So that's why I feel like I am still in that exploration.

It's not that I don't assume positions. I think I have certain positions, but I don't think that my ideas and my positions are my identity. I'm always trying to be open to learning new things and understand where people are coming from, and and I'm glad that that comes across, as as you say.

Maureen

Definitely, I think that's why so many people read your posts every week!

Switching a little bit into your personal style…. I'm becoming more interested in the why behind how people dress rather than what we're wearing. In broad strokes, how do you decide what to buy or wear, or what not, to buy or wear?

Laura

Yeah, I was thinking about this. This was a great question, and I'm glad that you asked me. I think I'm 100% committed to proportions. I can see some things that I adore in the store online, whatever. And but if the proportions do not work for me, I tend not to wear it in a non aesthetic dimension. I have become sharper at questioning why I like something I grew up in in a very small town with a lot of class bias. And so that class bias was easily reflected in how people dressed. And, it's very tacit. It's not talked about. But, you kind of absorb all that bias and all this, all the signals and and the signs and and the hidden messages that are part of the clothes, and and it takes time, and for me, moving to a different country to realize how much I wasn't questioning where my preference for certain items. What's coming from that bias? And, it's kind of like a little bit of deconstructing to construct again, and to kind of like. Try to mold yourself to who you really are.

And and and yeah, so I think to your question, how do I decide what I wear? What I don't wear? There's definitely an aesthetic dimension. As I said, proportions to me are key. And then also a more non-aesthetic, more personal questioning of Where why do I look this? Why do I like this? And why don't I like it? Is it because something that was instilled in me, or is it because I generally do not do not find it appealing?

Maureen

Hmm, hmm. Yeah, that's such a great question. And I think almost a lifetime question is, how do we decide why we like what we like?

Are there any like specific examples that come to your mind as far as like maybe something that you used to like that once you kind of drilled into it, you realized it doesn't resonate as much now, or vice versa, something that you used to not really appreciate. But now over time, you appreciate more?

Laura

There was a post where I talked about the ruffles, and this kind of very tropical Caribbean chic dresses, with florals and ruffles, and all these things, and at the moment, and back in 2014, I really liked them, and I wore them, and then I kind of rejected them. I felt like they were not part of me. Why was I wearing this? I am more minimal. I've always tend to be to less, to be more masculine and what I find sexy.

But then I realized that there was a lot of bias in in the florals, they are considering where I come from. It's like something, too. Floral is too ‘out there,’ ‘too much,’ too…Just not very elegant. I started peeling the onion on ‘what is elegance? What is chicness? And why, when I like the florals? Why did I like them in 2014. And why didn't I like them before or after? And then I realized that I like the florals and the ruffles and all of this style of dressing, because it was it was being imposed by designers that were regarded as exclusive that were in vogue. And so I was like, oh, so florals are good when they are proposed by certain designers, but are not good. When I see someone on the street in Barranquilla wearing them.

So that was that was a kind of like a revealing moment for me. And there are so many other examples. The cork platforms, which are a staple in my hometown. The jeans without pockets, on the back. Very stable staple in Colombia. Sweatpants. Huge example. Oh, because I'm going to appear lazy, or that I gave up? What is that coming from? Oh, Chanel designer said it. Oh, but is he right? Is there a racial component to that statement? Is there a class component to that statement? So there's a lot of things that I believed were mine that were not mine, and I'm still in the process to peel the onion. It's an ongoing journey.

Maureen

I love, that “there were a lot of things that were mine that were not mine.” I love the empowerment that I hear, which is like we try on different identities. We try on different aesthetics. We take in all these influences, and you know what I just heard in that is, we can take those things off, too. And we can say, what of those things that I've tried out or internalized, how can I let go of those? What a lesson! What a lesson! And it doesn't just apply to clothing as we've been talking about. It applies to so many different kind of perspectives.

I don't know if you're aware of this. I just thought of this example like the Roman, like statues and and columns. And what's the word like? Busts used to be like super colorfully painted. Did you know about this?

Laura

Yes! Great book called Chromophobia. I don't know if you you heard of it. I recommend it because that one also opened my eyes a lot to color. It's pretty much how this whole minimalistic movement instilled in us the idea that neutral colors and muted palettes and subdued silhouettes were elegant, and whatever was colorful was not. And there's a huge, bias instilled in that statement. The book Chromophobia. I think it's David Bachelor. He wrote it, and he talked about Le Corbusier. And a lot of of these designers, that kind of like created these this paradigm in a way. But yeah, the Roman statues is a great example. We find them beautiful and elegant, and they're white, but they they were not white, they they used to be colorful, and the eyes had color, that's where it comes from!

Maureen

My personal style is a bit of a counterpoint, right? One of the things that I hear from you is that we're interrogating where our influences come from, but we're not inherently rejecting them. We're using discernment. And so, my personal aesthetic is on the somewhat more minimal side. Part of that also has to do with what colors actually look best on my body, and when I wear bright colors you don't see me, [my face] disappears. And so that's totally fine, like, I'm neutral about that. It's fine, but I think if I did have a different complexion, if I had like more extreme features, maybe my aesthetic would be different. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with having an aesthetic that that makes sense with my body, and allows my face to be seen as opposed to just my clothing.

Laura

And I think that's where the extreme discourse tries to, like I want to say, tell you what to do. Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal. And and I ask myself these questions, and I say, Well, there's something in my history that determined this, which is my Catholic upbringing, and how I saw my mom getting dressed.

Oh, you have to wear color. But what if I don't want to wear color? I already know that, here's a class bias. There's there's a race bias, but I still don't like color on me, and that happens to me as a Latin woman a lot. Because I have questioned myself why I don't wear more pattern. Why, why do I stick to this? Silhouettes like the pants, like what I'm wearing today, just pants and and a sweater simple, minimal?

My mom was always dressed in pants and a bottom down shirt to go to the office, and she dressed differently than all the women in Barranquilla, who dressed like Sofia Vergara, and and Shakira, and they were always full of makeup. So, I grew up with this model with, you know, my mom. And, so I try to trace where my taste for this kind of clothes came from. I interrogated it, but I feel like when people tell me you should wear more color. I have the certainty that it's my choice to dress. The way I dress is not coming from that class bias or that color, or that it's coming from my history, from my mom, from my heritage, from an influence I had as a child.

And there's another thing that it's the this expectations that Latin women need to dress certain way, or they need to look certain way, or you don't dress Latin enough. Well, what does that [look like]? What what is that? What is what is Colombian aesthetic? What is Latin aesthetic? Is it something you saw on the TV? Is it that you created from seeing Salama Hayek in movies? Because it's not a monolith. Being a Latin woman is so many things, including what I am choosing to do. So it's important to question where our choices are coming from. But when we make peace with those answers. We don't need to try to change them, just to appease certain discourses, such as the class or the race discourse. Because in your case you don't like coloring you, and it doesn't mean you're racist or classist, or that you're trying to, I don't know. Assert your whiteness. It's just simply that you don't like how you look on color. And that's totally okay. It's an aesthetic choice. And we are free to make those aesthetic choices. So it's complex.

Maureen

I mean, this is so validating, and I wasn't going into this expecting that. But you know, at the end of the day, I think sometimes when we are interested in fashion, we make fashion mean so much, and it does. It means a lot. But it doesn't mean everything. And, there's a two-dimensionality to sharing images of our clothing online. And what we're wearing. But when we're out in the world like that's where we show how we respect other people. That's where we show that we aren't trying to assert our whiteness. Or, maybe that we dress a certain way that would say otherwise, but when we act out in the world we are like. It's just one aspect of this, like three-dimensional personality. And, whatever I try to write, and I certainly see it in your writing is this this nuance and multiplicity and dimensionality? So I resonate with that so much.

Laura

That's so profound way you just said, Yeah, clothes are. Because I started saying, I want to talk about how fashion is transcendental and important and valuable, but it's also not sometimes. Well, it's also not. It's also fun and play, and there's room for that. It's not the cure for cancer. It's also. But when I'm in the worst moments I getting dressed is what makes me keep going. You know, it can have very powerful effect on the Psyche, but at the same time we need to recognize that it's not everything about a person. As you say, we act in the world, and that's also part of who we are. It's not just what we're wearing.

Maureen

Oh, I feel like we could talk about that for a lifetime. Let's keep writing!

Going back to how you decide what to wear, how does body awareness influence the way you dress? Are there specific textures, fits, or styles? I know you talked about proportion. So maybe talking about that in a little bit more detail, or anything else [around] how you want to feel in your clothes.

Laura

Okay, so, I think I have always leaned or oversized silhouettes, as I mentioned. And I I do recognize that I used to dress in oversized clothes to kind of like conceal certain parts of my body I didn't like. But, now that I am more comfortable with how my body looks. I still dress pretty oversized, but it's not to conceal my body necessarily, but I see it more as an act of sculpting my body, and I think there's immense freedom in sculpting the body through fabric, you know. Play with shapes, elongate, shorten, make the the make the the shoulders wider. I mean all those tricks. It’s almost like like a like a ceramicist playing with clay. You know it's it's not necessarily a quest for flattering. It's more like an intuitive activity that I enjoy a lot. For example, right now, I was thinking that I really love everything that has like that drape like the silk. But I also love having the the scuba material that makes me, that is just static. I mean, I love playing with that kind of thing, too, because it those are different tools to kind of like sculpt and create a cocoon or or there's a writer, she used to be Man Repeller, she created this system of shapes, the palm tree, and and I love how it's not the fruit system from, you know the nineties. It's just like how you can dress to like to highlight certain parts of your body, and it's not for ‘flattering’. I repeat, it's just more like a sculpting exercise! And I really enjoy that as an artist I enjoy it. I know it sounds cliche, but I do see the body as a canvas.

[Editor’s note: Laura is referring to fellow Substack writer, Elizabeth Cardinal Tamkin’s Silhouette System™ and I am now DEEP in this philosophy.)

Maureen

I don't think it's cliche at all, actually. And I think, it's just true, if that's how you approach getting dressed. If that's authentic to you, that’s it…that's the whole thing. And I think that's so cool.

I'm certainly been on a journey myself where I used to really dress for like ‘flattering’ and, my priority was to kind of dress in a way that was like made me a sexual being for other people's like understanding of me. I'm really playing now with, the female gaze, and all I keep thinking about is the types of silhouettes that I want to wear now are so different. And and I love them, and I would not have worn them in the past. I love making space for that like change, and that transition, and being open to changing my mind and being open to things that I thought weren't for me. And it's just really fun. To your point, like, I just got this sweater vest. I cannot stop talking about it. I'm so sorry for everyone, but it's got like kind of a nice. It like makes my shoulders look kind of broad in a great way, and then it like kind of cuts in.

So it just creates like such a cool shape over whatever I put it on with, and like to some degree. Yes, I'm still accentuating some degree of like hourglass, which is fine like I don't care. That's fine, but in so many other ways it's very much not for the male gaze. And so it's just kind of like this wonderful balance of the two, where it's a preferred silhouette, but also kind of more eccentric.

Laura

That was when you talk about the shoulders, I feel like shoulder pads to me are huge, and I hate when they go out of style. I still wear them even when they're out of style, because I think they're so powerful in that interplay of shape. So yeah, those are, those are great tools and resources in in my toolbox.

Maureen

I'm curious what you think about trends just really quickly…I'm ‘pro’ trend. I think we wouldn't be able to make progress. We wouldn't be open to changing our minds about things. And I think I see a lot of discourse about like ‘trends are bad. It's just marketing.’ And it's like, Okay, yes. But also…Can we see the beauty and trends? I don't know. I think one of the hardest things about like when a shoulder pad goes out of style isn't necessarily that they're not cool anymore, but it can be harder to find them. What do you think about trends generally?

Laura

I'm with you, I think trends are a great opportunity to get out of our comfort zone to explore. I have delved into trends, and some of them. It's not that I regret them, but I just realized that they don't fit my lifestyle, or I'm not reaching for for them. Others really stick with me and stay forever like shoulder pads. I mean, I started wearing shoulder pads when Dries Van Noten did this collection, like 10 years ago, and he showed the shoulder pads with a striped shirt, and I recreated it. I didn't buy it. I took a shirt. I cut it, and I put shoulder pads, and I'm like, ‘Oh, my goodness, this is great!’ like in terms of proportions. It creates like this super cool thing that I never would have….I thought it was so 80s, and I discovered something that that's that stick with me. And I think trends are just as I say, a good avenue to discover new things, to get out of our comfort zone, to question or aesthetic. Where is it coming from? And I I think there are like low stakes ways to try trends, and we don't need to jump on all of them. But if you do, that's fine, too.

Where you are in life, in the twenties, you should really try trends. I mean, you should really try everything. Your thirties, maybe you start figuring out, okay, this trend worked for me. What was it that I liked about the trend? Was it the silhouette? Was it how practical it was? And then in your forties you kind of start figuring it out, and you have more discernment. You can tell, okay, this trend is really not going to work for me, but you know I try the the jelly shoe. And I loved it. I think it's so fun. It's just ironic, and I live in Florida. So it's not very ironic for me, but I still make it ironic, how I pair them.

And then there's some other trends, like I tried leopard. And I like it when I wear it. But I don't reach for it that often as I would like, and I don't know what it is. I mean it's it's not. It could be a bias. Oh, I think it's too much, and it's not something I should wear to pick up my kids. Why, what like question? You know, what’s that story?

But yeah, I think trends are fine. Yes, I do not agree with certain influencers pushing trends. In a way that it's hidden, like. If you're if you're gonna tell me to wear this. I also want you to tell me that you have a partnership with the brand. I want you to tell me that you invested in the company that produces the item that you're trying to sell as the new thing. I think that kind of transparency I miss sometimes. But you know, it's not against the trend. It's against the way marketing is conducted, right?

Maureen

And not all trends were necessarily created, equally like some trends are from a brand. But you could also say that some trends probably come from individual people, individual designers. People in high fashion world that are putting things out there and getting people thinking about things in new ways.

Laura

They are creative people. They're designers. And it's their job to think in the future and think about. I mean, it's it's kind of like a way of appreciating their effort to to innovate. So imagine if we think about if we don't care about trends, then I don't think there would be that incentive to, to innovate and to think differently, and and to try and create new things. So as an artist, I think it would be a little bit contradictory for me to not appreciate trends, and what's new.

Maureen

Very fair point. So we talked a little bit about your style evolution with, you know, the 2014 liking florals and then moving away from that. But are there any like memorable phases that you've gone through with your style.

Laura

Think my style has remained pretty consistent. I with, you know, deviations as usual. I think my favorite stage. I think it's my forties, for sure. I think it all comes with the confidence of age, and just not caring so much, but also caring a lot just like you have a little bit more information.

Maureen

Yeah, more information, I agree with that.

What personal or style goals are you working towards this year, if any?

Laura

I think my main goals was is to continue tracking my purchases, and not for self-flagellation, not to feel guilty. It's really to see what I wear, and what was worth spending money on. To me the only way for me to really see what I need. What if there's a gap in my closet is to not shop. Wearing my clothes. Then I can start identifying. Oh, I've been wearing this sweater for all this time, and maybe I need a new sweater because this one is not doing what I wanted to do, because I want a V-neck instead of, you know things like that.

But you only identify those needs when you actually wear your clothes versus just like getting new things and getting distracted with new things and not wearing what you already have. So I'm shopping. I wouldn't say I'm gonna low-buy. I mean, I'm still shopping, but I'm a lot more aware of of what I have in my closet, how to style it different ways to style the same things for different occasions. The whole idea of the bi-furcated closet, how to apply it in my daily life?

And also, I'm saving money because we have projects at home that we want to do. We want to remodel our kitchen. We want to remodel our bathroom, and also I have two daughters, and they also require a lot of clothes like the grow, the bigger they get the more they they require. So it's it's a new expense kind of like versus when they were toddlers. So sometimes I feel like, Oh, if I buy this $500 purse than my daughters cannot get this. So it's kind of like a trade off. So it's both, for you know the economy of my house. And also just be more assertive with with my purchases.

Maureen

I love that idea of being assertive with purchases. That's such a great way of talking about it. And I'm gonna say that, too!

Friend of the podcast, Emily Grady Dodge. She just put up a post was a good reminder about this book I'm Going to Teach You How to Be Rich, and I heard an interview with the author years ago, and then promptly forgot about it.

Basically it's this idea of, if you spend your money on the things that you care about, and don't spend your money on the things you don't care about, you can live a more rich fulfilling life. It's not about learning how to be a millionaire. It's about learning how to live life richly and fully, and the things that you care about or cared about. And so I think when someone does do a low buy or no buy, or is paying attention to what they're spending their money on when it comes to getting dressed. That's part of this whole effort to live fully and and feel, you know. That's such a great way to say it.

Laura

Trade-offs. Resources are not unlimited.

Maureen

Yes, trade-offs!

So, we're coming towards the end. What advice would you give to someone trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Laura

I would say, documenting your outfits. Not for performance, not necessarily to look good or to post it on Instagram, but just to keep track, just to have like that visual memory, and and to to remember what was it that made you comfortable? So that from a logistics standpoint.

And then, get interested in things that are not fashion. I think that really enriches your approach to fashion, and that's something that I learned as an artist that when you focus on artists, on on art, only your art could be great, obviously. But when you start focusing on different things. And it could be doesn't have to be anything, you know, like politics or philosophy. It could be gardening. It could be like just trying to inject your your creative endeavors with knowledge from other areas of life, I think, makes it a lot more enriching and and fulfilling. So just, more layered. So it's not just layers of clothes, but also layers of knowledge and and just interest. I think it just makes it a lot more interesting.

Maureen

Well, this was so fun. Where can listeners find you?

Laura

I’m on Instagram, and Substack. And, if you're interested in seeing my artwork, which is like another aspect, I'm at Laudadevalencia.com.

Maureen

I'm definitely gonna check out your artwork. I don't think I've seen it before, so, I'm excited to look at that.

Well, thank you so much. This was so fun!

Laura

Thank you, and I am very, very grateful for this opportunity. And, as I said, these were great questions that I might consider on my own writing.

Maureen

I cannot wait to to read.

Laura

Thank you.

Outro

Thank you to our guest, Laura De Valencia Kirk, for joining us today.

Intuitive Style is produced, edited and hosted by me, Maureen Welton. In case you missed it, Intuitive Style, the podcast, is an offshoot of Intuitive Style, the Substack newsletter. Head on over to Substack, search Intuitive Style, to see the newsletter, which includes thoughtful reflections on what’s happening in the fashion world, guest features, and my encouragement that you can create a wardrobe that fits your life as it is now, no judgement, no rush.

Our theme music is by Noir et Blanc Vie. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode with someone you think might enjoy it. Don’t forget to subscribe, as new episodes drop weekly on Fridays and you can listen wherever podcasts are found.

Thanks and see you next week!

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