For Context: Bible and Context Interlude

Episode # 09

🎙️ Episode Overview

Podcast Show Notes: For Context

Episode Title: From Missional to Contextual: Leading in the Great Unraveling Hosts: Gino Curcuruto & Luke Stair Guest: Dr. Alan Roxburgh (Pastor, Teacher, Writer, and Consultant)

Episode Summary

In this episode, Gino and Luke sit down with Dr. Alan Roxburgh to unpack a fundamental shift happening in theological education and church leadership: the transition from “missional leadership” to “contextual theology.” Drawing from his recent book, Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling, Dr. Roxburgh offers a piercing critique of how the Western church reacts to decline with anxiety and quick fixes. Instead of trying to “fix” what is broken, he invites leaders to embrace a different imagination—moving away from corporate metrics and stepping into the role of an “abbot,” gardener, or midwife to cultivate presence, dwelling, and discernment in a changing era.

Key Takeaways

* The Evolution of ‘Missional’: In the 1990s, the term “missional” emerged (influenced heavily by Leslie Newbigin) to remind the church that mission is its core identity, not just a department. However, Western churches quickly co-opted the language into another programmatic strategy to fix declining numbers.

* The Shift to ‘Contextual’: Moving toward “contextual theology” is an attempt to escape the anxious, fix-it mentality of modern church growth and instead ask how to faithfully inhabit the specific, local reality where the church finds itself.

* The Ending of Modernity: We are not just in an era of change, but a change of era—the unraveling of a cultural framework that has existed since the 16th century. Modern human agency tells us we can figure out the answers and stay in control, but this new unknown space requires us to relinquish control.

* Reimagining Leadership Metaphors: Dr. Roxburgh challenges leaders to reject modern corporate leadership models and instead view themselves as:

* Abbots: Hold the rules of life, provoke practice, and look after the spiritual formation of a community.

* Gardeners/Farmers/Midwives: Cultivate environments, attend to growth, and assist in birthing what God is already doing, rather than manufacturing results.

* The Practices of Dwelling and Discernment: Instead of chasing a five-year strategy or mission statement, communities must learn the slow, long-term art of dwelling in a neighborhood, listening to stories, and discerning where God’s agency is already at work.

Notable Quotes

“Mission had really become in the language world of the Protestant churches a department, a program... missional stumbled upon a language that would say mission isn’t a program of the church, it is what the church is by its very nature.”

“We are in a massive, disruptive unraveling of the culture... How do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change and fix everything, but are ready to dwell and listen and attend to what God is doing amongst us in the local?”

“An abbot is one who simply lays down the need for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy. Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer.”

Resources Mentioned

* Book: Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling by Dr. Alan Roxburgh

* Book: Foolishness to the Greeks: The Gospel and Western Culture by Leslie Newbigin

* Thinkers/Figures Referenced: Pope Francis, Christian Smith, Descartes, Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, Mary Harrington.

Connect with Northern Seminary

Interested in joining the conversation or studying with leaders like Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, and Dr. Cindy Westfall? A new Doctorate of Ministry (D.Min) cohort in Contextual Theology is starting in June 2027.

* Website: seminary.edu

* Email Gino directly: [email protected]

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

* Alan Roxburgh: Leaving Egypt

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New Doctorate in Contextual Theology Cohort Starting in June 2027!

If you are interested in studying at Northern Seminary and learning from the likes of Drs. David Fitch, Jonathan Tran, Cindy Westfall, and many more, reach out to Gino: [email protected] for more information.

Transcript

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i’m gino curcuruto i’m luke stair and you’re listening to for context a podcast

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about northern seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology

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our guest today is dr alan roxborough al is a pastor teacher writer and consultant

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with more than 30 years of experience in church leadership consulting

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and seminary education his recent book forming communities of hope in

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the great unraveling is part of the conversation that we have with him

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but also he served as our

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professor in a recent contextual theology seminar and we’re going to reflect on

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that some of the

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things that we learned press him on a couple of questions that we had and just generally have

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great conversation so thanks for listening four context is brought to you by northern seminary

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for over 113 years northern seminory has been training women and men

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if you want to check out all of the academic offerings

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the northern seminary has including a doctoral ministry cohort

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in contextual theology please go to seminary.edu a new cohort for the d-min

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in contextual theology is getting started in june of 2027 if you’re interested

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or would like more information on how to come study

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with dr david fitch dr jonathan tran dr cindy westfall and others

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please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto

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at seminary.edu that’s g c u r c u r again u t o at seminary.edu and i’ll give you

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the information we can chat uh welcome back to for context today gino

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and i have dr alan roxborough uh who if you’ve listened to any of

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the previous episodes you have actually been one of the favorite classes i think

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of everyone we’ve interviewed so far thank you

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uh which is high praise because there are a lot of great faculty so

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but we’re really excited to have you on the podcast for those

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who aren’t aware dr roxbro has been teaching in the contextual theology program

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since before it was the contextual theology program i think you’ve been with it

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since the beginning since the very first cohort yeah

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which is fantastic you know one of the things I think we wanted to talk to you

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about is the class we took with you was titled missional leadership and the program

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as you know used to be called missional leadership and we would love it

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if you would get into what’s behind that name and then why would a program move away

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from calling itself a missional leadership program and call itself

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a contextual theology program instead

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oh okay well um there’s a lot of things behind the name and why there would be

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a migration to contextual from missional i think that um back in the 1990s um the

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the question of mission and the west were being

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explored in

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profoundly anxious ways that is the in the 1990s the denominations

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the major ones the ones we mostly know who had been sort of

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the regnant culture protestant culture let’s just say of america um were discovering

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that they had been initially de-centered

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and that their place in the culture all

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the data was starting to show this that was not just slowing down

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but transforming you get a if I can find the book national leaders were having

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to come to terms with this new reality

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and basically the fundamental way they came to terms

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with it they wouldn’t have used this language but how do we fix how do we get back

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to the place in the culture that we’ve known particularly for our congregations etc

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and that anxiety and that search for a fix occurred at precisely the same time

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that missiologists particularly around Leslie Newbigin were coming to terms

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with their own question which is what is a missionary engagement with

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the modern west that was that was the language that Newbigin was using in

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for example foolishness to the Greeks and so these two things found each other

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in the 90s, probably late 90s.

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And those of us who were working with Newbigin’s question of mission in

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the West were aware that the language of mission inside the denominations

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of America had been turned into some

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form of programmatic event inside the churches so you had missions departments

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as well as you had evangelism departments or men’s ministry on and on you could go

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and so mission had really become in the language world of the protestant churches

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a department a program so each congregation would have its own missions committee

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as well as it had its own men’s ministry and women’s ministry and youth ministry and

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so those who were working in this area with Newbigin friends

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of mine actually

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were looking for a language that would say mission isn’t a program

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of the church it is what the church is by its very nature and that’s when

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the language of missional was stumbled upon and it was seen as being this sort

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of kind of language that would open the windows and the doors and give us

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a renewed grasp that the church was by its very nature shaped by mission so that’s

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where missional came from but

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what happened is that it got tagged on or it was created or it became alive at

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the very moment this other tsunami of anxiety was taking over the churches

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so you know church growth church this church that in the midst of it missional and

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so without belaboring at all without without this being intentional

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missional became the lingua franca of the denominations of the protestant churches

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without them understanding that what they did was bring into

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that language their own need to fix and get back to where they were and so

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over time missional sounded like we were all becoming missional

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if we could just canoe the mountains better we’d become missional all of that became

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the thing in the early 2000s and so i suspect that’s why

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a missional cohort was created in the early 2000s and seminaries created centers

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for missional blah blah blah blah blah largely because if they did it they get money

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from lily but the the um and

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i think it just took time i mean it still hasn’t penetrated

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that missional had simply lost its coinage it it simply meant how

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to make your church work in a culture where the church doesn’t work

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so i suspect that’s why and that’s why there was a shift to okay what

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then do we call it

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and the language of contextual emerges which is really trying to do exactly

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the same thing that the language of missional was trying to do but I think

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the language of contextual at least presents the ability to take a different tack

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than that that happened to missional but but I still have my hermeneutic

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of suspicion is still

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that by and large in most protestant denominations the drive to fix and the anxiety

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to turn things around is still pretty strong now probably as

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the boomer generation dies off because they’re the ones that have been in leadership

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that will change and contextual might hold a hopeful way

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of asking different questions do you think

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that yeah that’s great I have some questions about it I’m sure Luke does as well

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do you think that it’s a it’s primarily a timing issue that there was this anxiety

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at this time in the 90s when missional was was coming around

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or do we always have anxiety to grow the church and we’re going to co-op everything

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into a technique of some kind or something else am i tracking

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with you yeah yeah yeah well i mean timing certainly is part of it but um it’s

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it’s not overstating it to say particularly in the post right after the end of

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the second world war protestant religion in america was a hot thing people went

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to church and it’s no small thing that the the greatest period of church planting

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in america occurs from the 50s through to the 70s and so

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there is a sense in which these denominations had kind of a right to feel at ease

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in zion or at ease in babel whatever you want to call it

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and to be shocked when

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on their watch all that started to change so that’s one thing

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so has it always been this way well

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um i mean yes and no um yeah we are always creating idols and we’re always doing

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that but it’s not a but the the i i i would say that in america from the end of

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the second world war the protestant churches really did think they had the formula

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and that it worked and all was well

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and so you can understand the shock that began to happen in really in the late 80s

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when all this other i mean am i is that the question you’re asking yeah no

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that that’s actually really helpful because it’s revealing that i’m speaking

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from my perspective and this is like my own context right i i came to faith in

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the mid to late 90s like later

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hr in life so all i all i know is anxiety in the church about the church not growing

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the loss of like the the power that you’re naming or the centrality

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that you’re naming or that christian smith is naming or documenting

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in his book that’s really helpful to me yeah but you know

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the anxiety became very real in the 2000s but it wasn’t i would propose

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it wasn’t just and isn’t just the anxiety of kind of boomer technocrats who want

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a method to fix I would say that in the in many of the neo-reform movements

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that you see which are definitely not run by boomers but by younger cohorts

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that that anxiety is being addressed by if we get back

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to you know faithful preaching faithful doctrine clear articulation good teaching

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then things will change so you know i wouldn’t i wouldn’t

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that you’re probably not saying this but i wouldn’t reduce it to you know

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if we could just get over the boomers things would be different

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sure yeah and you have this uh i think gift of unmasking that very simple statement

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of if we could just and then fill in the blank yeah how do we how do we move

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beyond those if we could just blank kind of statements what’s how do we get past

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that mentality and framework of operating in ministry

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and church life well i i mean i think that um

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in

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a big picture way i would say i don’t know having said i don’t know let me tell you

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what to do

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if we could just listen to you

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so so i i think all of us

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when we find ourselves in a place that we’ve not been

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before our normal natural human instinct

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is to try to read it and interpret it through the lenses of where we are so

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in other words that’s another way a nice way of saying contextual missiology

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or contextual theology isn’t itself the magic solution right

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if you understand what i’m trying to say um the um and so you know i remember this

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in parenting where

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when my two boys were teenagers and they were way off in the weeds and their mom

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and my wife was really upset I remember deciding one day

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that this is enough I’m not going to let this happen anymore I’m going to fix it and

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of course the fixing it was what I was given growing up here are the rules abide

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by them or there’s going to be consequences

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so all of that was a an anxious reaction to the realities I was facing

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and my wife said no you won’t you will not lay down the raw if you if you do

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that you’ll lose them anyway and but I didn’t know what to do like if that wasn’t

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the answer what then do I do so all that all of that to say is

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that it is just natural and normal for us to be in some way reactive

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when our worlds start coming apart and you can’t pretend that that’s not

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the case it is always going to be the case um the second thing which is not going

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to be so you know i don’t want to pick on them but you can still

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and you can create your own list you can still see all kinds of things going

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on advertised on the internet and that

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of church events and programs and conventions that are all about fixing right and

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but here’s I mean to answer your question then is I think one of

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the most important steps is to come to a place of recognizing

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that there is no fixing where we are that we are in fact as Pope Francis said

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not in an era of change but we’re in a change of era and what that means is that all

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of us have been formed in particular kinds of narratives that we know

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and we’re comfortable with but when you enter a change of era by and large

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the skills the capacities the narratives the frameworks

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that we’ve been given are not gonna read and interpret where we find ourselves.

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And so I would say that the first important thing,

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Luke, is this awareness that we aren’t where we are anymore.

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And in fact,

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my language is we are in a massive disruptive unraveling of the culture that came

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into being

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probably in the 16th century and we came to call modernity that that period

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that era is coming to an end modernity itself is coming to an end

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and we are entering this unknown space which is a fairly disorienting dark time so

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the question you’ve got to ask yourself is how do we then live in that kind

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of reality and time

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how do we live in a time

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when there are no fixes doesn’t matter what your canoe is there are no fixes um and

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and the

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so if that’s the case what then do we do and you know as i’ve written in

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that in the book i recently wrote there are really important things

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that we can do very important things that we can do um

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to address that but one of the one of the critical

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characteristics or anthropologies

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of being human in the modern era is that by god we can get

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the answers we can know what to do and we can be in control right in other words

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we’ll pray when we’ve figured it out and we need God to bless it

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and so part of what

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then do we do how then do we live is how do we particularly

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as leaders how do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change

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and fix everything but are ready to dwell and listen and attend

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to what god is doing amongst us in the local without needing

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to know what it’s all going to look like and how it’s all going to work out

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in other words we don’t need to know what the roi is we don’t need

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to know what it’s all going to look like because we can’t and so we need leaders

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who can cultivate those kinds of communities yeah so you you also

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can see this as a gift i guess not just you personally al but all of us um

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that this unraveling can be seen as a gift of like getting us away from our grasp

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of control and as you kind of teach us and remind us of putting god’s agency

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at first discovery of god’s agency

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Yeah, and so there’s a gift in that,

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which seems to be consistent to me with the entire narrative of the Bible,

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always God inviting people to believe and trust God as the one who loves

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and is giving the best ways to live.

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We just seem to want to have control in some ways,

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and I’m wondering what are some of the practices that you would suggest to those

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who are listening to...

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to make that shift sure just before i answer that question let me let me talk about

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that question of control yeah and

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to realize this is not some secular modern thing this is the result and the product

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of christian imagination in the middle ages um for those who want to do all of this

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this is the emergence of nominalism it stuns scotus and his gang and without getting

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into it it is the emergence of a sovereign god who cannot be controlled

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and therefore isn’t predictable and you don’t know what this god is going to do

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all

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of that disrupts

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aquinas’s sort of great chain of being or rational universe in which we

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as humans had a place and so what you’ve got is as a result of that kind of kind

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of christian medieval evangelical imagination is this huge disruptive moment in

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which we as human beings no longer felt

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we had a place in the universe and i could go on and on around all of that

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the result was

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if you can’t figure god out god is not predictable then what you do

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and i’m conflating a lot of history what you do is you turn from the question

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of what is our relationship with god because that one’s too damn scary anymore

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and you turn to what is our relationship with are you ready nature and now we’re

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into descartes and all kinds of people um and the whole question

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then becomes number one human agency comes to the center of our lives and number two

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the location of human agency goes into the self

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so you are no longer seeking meaning out there in

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the universe you are seeking meaning inside the self

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as agent now that’s gone deep that’s what sociologists would call deep culture it’s

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all the way down right now in modernity so it’s not going to go away in a hurry and

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so

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if that’s the case that that’s contextually what’s going on which is why of course

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if you let me meander a little bit we’d like to you get all this bloody emphasis

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on discipleship and we’re going to create true disciples and real disciples

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and proper and and and these pastors and leaders are all trying to get

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the right discipleship going

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what they’re trying to do is say how do I shake these human beings

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whose very natural way of life is to go into themselves right

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which is why therapy is so popular anymore so you’ve got to gently invite people

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into practices and I mean I write about these in that book but

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and it’s hard work I mean this is not easy this doesn’t just pop up and happen

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because of all I’ve just said it is you know the practices I write about and talk

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about are number one how we begin to come to learn to dwell again in a place and

(00:25:55.379):

with the people

(00:25:58.102):

so I dwell in this neighborhood I’m not planning to leave I’m not

(00:26:04.110):

but I dwell in this neighborhood in order to be with the people and get

(00:26:06.952):

to know them I dwell in my local congregation not in order for us

(00:26:12.775):

to create vision statements and mission statements but just to be there and together

(00:26:18.998):

and to listen and to engage each other’s stories so I do

(00:26:22.720):

that dwelling this is practice over a long period of time and in that dwelling I

(00:26:30.945):

with others begin to cultivate

(00:26:34.920):

a lost art of how do i discern in other words how do i learn again to ask

(00:26:40.664):

the question what’s god doing here rather than all the questions i’ve been trained

(00:26:47.067):

in which are now that now that we’ve uh now that we’ve seen

(00:26:50.889):

the needs how do we meet them or now that we’ve defined people as assets and

(00:26:55.692):

the assets they bring what are the assets that are missing and how do we do all of

(00:26:59.894):

that objectification of human beings

(00:27:02.716):

which are about my anxious needs to be important and have control how do i let

(00:27:07.939):

that go so it’s a long journey and therefore

(00:27:13.103):

the language i would prefer is not leaders who are pastors or apostles or all

(00:27:22.048):

that crap but how do we again become abbots

(00:27:28.412):

i think you’re gonna have to define that

(00:27:29.933):

a little bit for everybody

(00:27:32.773):

you mean there’s too many protestants on this there’s too many protestants

(00:27:40.337):

the

(00:27:40.718):

the um

(00:27:43.679):

there’s lots of ways of defining it but the the abba abbas male

(00:27:50.783):

and female were they um were this what would you call the spiritual leaders of

(00:27:58.628):

a community happened to be called

(00:28:02.929):

abbeys or monasteries and these communities were formed around a rule

(00:28:11.691):

of life right um i think i think benedictine is what prayer

(00:28:20.033):

and hospitality it’s prayer and work ora at labora ora and labora so

(00:28:25.834):

in other words they they came together around very very simple uh rules of life

(00:28:33.193):

we’re going to live this way as part not part but in the northumbria community

(00:28:39.574):

for me it’s availability and vulnerability so each day

(00:28:44.795):

through daily office i ask myself that question so anyway so you have a community

(00:28:49.576):

of people who are saying we are coming together

(00:28:54.757):

in order to live to pray

(00:28:59.218):

and work together in this place where we are

(00:29:03.827):

the abbot is the one who lives and works in the benedictine tradition

(00:29:11.490):

with his people who originally most of

(00:29:15.591):

whom were not ordained remember benedicts monastery were not ordained people

(00:29:23.694):

but lives and works with them in order to say to them how are you doing

(00:29:29.396):

with your rule of life

(00:29:34.637):

and they would listen and

(00:29:35.918):

the abbot would say why don’t you try this why don’t you

(00:29:43.124):

try daily office

(00:29:44.485):

or why don’t you why don’t you go and live with this group

(00:29:49.989):

of people anyway it wasn’t a set of rules but

(00:29:55.273):

the practices like daily office like all kinds of practices

(00:30:00.011):

we’re not this is what you have to do but here are ways in

(00:30:03.733):

which you particularly can be formed inside these rules of life so that was

(00:30:11.517):

the abbot’s work the abbot was like a father or a mother overseeing that work and so

(00:30:19.481):

the abbot the abbot was not you know i’ve just been called to this place

(00:30:26.657):

so you know i’m gonna live with them for a year just to see how they are and then at

(00:30:31.100):

the end of the year we’re gonna we’re gonna kind of have a retreat and come up with

(00:30:36.044):

a mission statement and vision statement and then after that we’re going

(00:30:40.027):

to develop our you know our planning and our strategy that’s that that’s not

(00:30:46.232):

the habit that’s modernity gone mad now behind that is a theology which is

(00:30:55.833):

in the formation and remember some of Benedict’s practices, one of them was stability, right?

(00:31:05.239):

We’re not going anywhere.

(00:31:12.624):

But by living in these practices,

(00:31:15.886):

you’re living as God’s people in uncertain times and uncertain places

(00:31:22.070):

and you’re confessing before God

(00:31:25.993):

we have no friggin strategy to fix all this but we are going to pray and work

(00:31:31.834):

or we’re going to be vulnerable and available and we’re going to let you do

(00:31:37.095):

the rest

(00:31:39.556):

now for so that’s I’m wandering away now but that’s what an abbot is

(00:31:44.997):

about okay and in our culture then an abbot is one who simply lays down the need

(00:31:55.299):

for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy.

(00:32:00.243):

Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer.

(00:32:08.613):

now you you um you mentioned the the dwelling as

(00:32:12.416):

a practice there’s also we know we can read the book but we know the discerning and

(00:32:18.079):

then experimenting or exploring yeah right and so i’m just trying to relate this to

(00:32:23.323):

the abbot would an abbot be someone who

(00:32:28.157):

for lack of a better word just cares for people in those practices when you you ask

(00:32:34.662):

the question about like how are you doing with your rule of life

(00:32:38.986):

and making suggestions it’s just it’s maybe not necessarily an overseer but an elder

(00:32:45.091):

in some way they provoke they provoke their practice provoke the practice i like

(00:32:50.275):

that provoke that’s a good word but uh an abbot heads i mean an abbot is the ruler

(00:32:57.621):

right it’s not you know loosey goosey you know we’ll do what the hell we want

(00:33:03.384):

and thank you abbot no the abbot is the ruler the holder of the rule and

(00:33:10.148):

the practices but but not

(00:33:15.151):

the abbot doesn’t crack whips and the abbot cultivates

(00:33:19.053):

the spaces the environments the abbot lives in prayer for his or her people um

(00:33:26.737):

and forms them in a way of life yeah so um

(00:33:32.819):

yeah yeah and so to mix

(00:33:36.560):

the metaphors you know if modern uh church leadership kind of borrowing

(00:33:41.221):

from corporate ideals you know is a farmer it sounds like what you’re describing

(00:33:45.242):

as opposed to a farmer a managerial mass scale kind of project you’re describing

(00:33:49.804):

a gardener correct a gardener a farmer

(00:33:54.367):

those are good so there’s no single metaphor gardener farmer

(00:34:04.976):

I talk about midwife

(00:34:07.598):

and you’ll notice I use none of the leadership characteristics

(00:34:14.664):

from Ephesians right I’m not talking about prophet teacher da da da da da da da da

(00:34:24.028):

for some very particular reasons.

(00:34:28.471):

So yeah, those are the metaphors I would use.

(00:34:32.674):

Farmer, gardener, midwife.

(00:34:36.117):

This is the role of the abbot.

(00:34:42.141):

Now, the thing is that

(00:34:52.587):

abbey’s monasteries were closed orders right you when you came in you came in

(00:34:59.110):

and there were reasons for that um the the um

(00:35:04.051):

and you can’t well you could you could do that today you could say who are the bunch

(00:35:09.093):

of people that want to live by this but congregations don’t work that way yeah

(00:35:14.835):

the people still live by consumer choice whether or not we’re trying to shape them

(00:35:18.557):

into that absolutely right absolutely right and and and

(00:35:23.252):

my guess is it’s not that you give up it’s that you’re not going to change that in

(00:35:29.716):

a hurry consumer choice

(00:35:35.039):

is you know it’s not that it’s not that somebody

(00:35:39.983):

in North America kind of gets up one morning when they’re 8 or 9 and says I got

(00:35:45.306):

a choice I’m not going to be a consumer anymore

(00:35:49.989):

by very different definition they are

(00:35:52.942):

right and then you get into the question which is a contextual question how does

(00:36:00.826):

a culture change which gets back to how i responded to you at

(00:36:04.769):

the beginning uh luke i think my answer is i don’t know i honestly don’t know except

(00:36:15.074):

that probably it’s more like a virus getting into the bloodstream

(00:36:22.035):

than it is

(00:36:24.756):

most of the other ways and so how viruses get

(00:36:30.419):

into bloodstreams are it is very interesting like for example i would say

(00:36:35.821):

that going back to the 1950s or 60s or going back to the 1990s

(00:36:42.904):

when newbigin was writing and all this missional stuff

(00:36:49.447):

that was a period of time in

(00:36:50.968):

which

(00:36:52.781):

no matter what we said about the sixties there wasn’t going to be a lot

(00:36:57.763):

of basic culture change there was going to be a lot of stuff going on inside

(00:37:02.944):

the overarching shape of the culture but i would say

(00:37:07.026):

that now we are probably witnessing the early stages of the ending of modernity

(00:37:22.279):

and if somebody says what do you think is coming I don’t know but these are moments

(00:37:31.684):

when I think

(00:37:35.786):

putting abbeys together

(00:37:39.488):

become a possibility it’s one

(00:37:42.029):

of those hinge walls I find it very interesting that the question of monastery

(00:37:49.366):

is being asked more and more and more um i just need to like

(00:37:54.629):

for example someone i follow and know very well is as mary harrington uh podcasts in

(00:38:02.774):

the uk that’s the language that’s emerging there i was listening to certainly not

(00:38:10.838):

a christian by any means discussion of universities after ai

(00:38:18.147):

and the recognition that the university systems that we’ve created

(00:38:21.650):

as we know them have no future and what do we do with that and what I was hearing

(00:38:28.874):

from these people and these were let’s just call them secular academics is we need

(00:38:33.978):

to return to guess what the monasteries so there’s some sense that in the form

(00:38:42.784):

that they took our ways of being

(00:38:48.335):

in a culture that’s falling apart yes and and i would say

(00:38:54.176):

that i’m sorry go ahead no no i was just going to back up to the the question

(00:39:00.118):

of consumers choices and you mentioning that that’s not something we decide

(00:39:04.699):

to be consumers we’re formed into consumers and so from

(00:39:08.960):

the church’s perspective i mean this is not a solution but this is a suggestion

(00:39:13.727):

what if in the midst of this unraveling we stopped providing products to consume or

(00:39:19.970):

at least lessened the number of products that we were offering

(00:39:24.452):

and instead invited people into this way of life i mean i know that’s not

(00:39:28.573):

a solution necessarily but it could be a pathway for people what do you guys think

(00:39:33.515):

of that interrogate that for me go ahead luke oh man

(00:39:41.967):

that’s a difficult one you know i’m i’m at a larger church than gino and there’s

(00:39:46.631):

a sense that if we cease to offer those things we cease to have people yeah

(00:39:52.576):

and they will continue to be consumers

(00:39:54.858):

and they’ll they’ll just move down no no it’s not that they’ll continue

(00:39:58.241):

to be consumers you won’t get paid and you won’t have a job right which

(00:40:03.025):

the lord will do what the lord will do um but

(00:40:07.195):

you know i think in my community you know for to form an abbey it’s almost a sense

(00:40:11.859):

of you know not if we keep using this metaphor of monastery not every catholic

(00:40:16.983):

and medieval europe was part of the monastery exactly right right totally right uh

(00:40:22.347):

and so what does it look like to form sort of monastic ways of being within

(00:40:26.971):

the american church accepting that it will not be the totality of

(00:40:30.734):

the north american church it gets back to the old sodalities and modalities

(00:40:36.520):

there’s still something in there that’s worth paying attention to

(00:40:41.103):

absolutely so it’s not it’s not necessarily that that’s all we have

(00:40:45.684):

to do i was i’m not suggesting that i am saying though that if you are interested in

(00:40:50.925):

in something that might look more like a monastic community you’re gonna have

(00:40:56.386):

to make some some shifts because if people continue to look to you to be

(00:41:00.886):

the apest leader that al was avoiding talking about and i’m just kidding um then

(00:41:06.407):

then it’s uh a different kind of balance can we come for us

(00:41:12.089):

you have to change the way you talk and what you’re inviting people into and

(00:41:17.651):

so I know it’s an oversimplification but it is memorable to say one way

(00:41:22.113):

to stop having consumers is stop providing things to consume it’s one way

(00:41:26.214):

to do it I mean alongside of that and this always sounds

(00:41:33.557):

so bloody simplistic it’s I’m

(00:41:38.800):

Let’s say I was the pastor of a church.

(00:41:42.120):

I’m not here to change you, good or bad.

(00:41:45.920):

It’s not what I’m up to.

(00:41:48.140):

I’m here with you

(00:41:50.420):

to invite you into some practices

(00:41:54):

where we can discover perhaps

(00:41:55.780):

what God is doing.

(00:41:57.080):

Let’s give it a shot.

(00:41:59.460):

Secondly,

(00:42:01.380):

I’m Not In A Hurry

(00:42:06.540):

I ain’t going anywhere.

(00:42:08.514):

now that’s a pretty tough one to say but you know

(00:42:14.859):

it’s like that’s actually

(00:42:18.222):

the stance I take where I go to church I mean I’m not part of the leadership anymore

(00:42:24.768):

at any level but I’m there not to say well did they get

(00:42:31.794):

the flavor right this morning or could we improve not there, I’m there to say

(00:42:36.957):

who are the people I can friend and love and become a midwife with

(00:42:42.279):

and let’s see what might be emerging and you know what you’d be amazed

(00:42:48.321):

at what might be emerging and maybe more my age because I remember I was ready

(00:42:55.543):

to change the world but in the midst of that when I hear people

(00:43:00.385):

with their big plans yeah sure go ahead whatever but this is how God changes

(00:43:06.547):

the world

(00:43:07.366):

now the thing that most of us in north america don’t want to hear is that most of

(00:43:13.450):

the time the way god changes the world is five six hundred years

(00:43:20.676):

it’s not yeah

(00:43:21.857):

the six month plan or this kind of plan that’s right

(00:43:28.834):

well we are getting up against the time here but i know luke always likes

(00:43:32.596):

to ask someone this question at the end so and i know you’ll be ready for it al

(00:43:37.638):

so here you will this is a great question because it just makes my life better

(00:43:41.960):

in every respectable way what are you reading right now oh gosh i’m reading are you

(00:43:50.644):

ready i was born ready for this one

(00:43:54.351):

i was reading i’m reading michael allen gillespie’s the theological origins

(00:43:59.012):

of modernity wow

(00:44:01.753):

that sounds fun christopher smith’s why it became obsolete oh my god

(00:44:08.394):

the book i’m reading uh christopher bay has why i am not an atheist um

(00:44:15.536):

and what else i mean what else do you want to know i’m i’m reading um

(00:44:23.647):

all that sort of thing yeah well i’ll say no one gives

(00:44:29.071):

a reading list quite like you do and uh well that’s

(00:44:35.156):

a good thing oh i love your reading lists yeah yes

(00:44:38.098):

so i am i’m reading i just picked it up because i tend not to read novels

(00:44:45.784):

but um it’s called theo of um do you have golden theo of golden

(00:44:54.147):

somebody said you gotta read it and i picked it up last night and i’m loving it

(00:45:01.291):

and i’m going oh i mean i haven’t got into it very far so i may change my mind

(00:45:07.095):

but i’m going oh this is a wonderful primer in how to be in

(00:45:11.397):

a neighborhood there we go anyway uh i’m waiting for other books to arrive um yeah

(00:45:23.767):

what books are you reading right now oh man i am almost done

(00:45:27.929):

with frank machia’s jesus the spirit baptizer christology in light of pentecost

(00:45:32.570):

which is just an astounding work of theology and then i have just ordered uh

(00:45:40.313):

the right to sex and i cannot remember the author’s name for the life of me

(00:45:45.075):

the right to sex is that r-i-t-e or r-i-g-h-t r-i-g-h-t gino’s read it

(00:45:50.978):

before i have not

(00:45:52.721):

it’s a fantastic book it’s really difficult but not like

(00:45:55.703):

a difficult read just difficult content okay okay

(00:45:59.086):

an oxford philosophy professor talks about how pornography has shaped her students

(00:46:04.510):

and their understanding of sex and so she observes and writes

(00:46:08.693):

on what they’ve yeah what their experiences are it’s difficult gosh yeah i don’t

(00:46:13.857):

know that i’m looking forward to it but and

(00:46:16.719):

then my light summer read was project hill mary which again is a novel

(00:46:20.201):

but oh yeah yeah so good

(00:46:22.548):

a lot of people talk about that it’s

(00:46:24.789):

a great novel yeah i’m reading um i’m reading i think it’s called yesteryear

(00:46:31.171):

where it’s this novel about this trad wife who um creates a 18 something um farm and

(00:46:44.255):

of course videos everything she and her kids and everything

(00:46:47.997):

and got got all these followings and all of that and then

(00:46:52.390):

she’s a faithful evangelical or something and then wakes up one morning

(00:46:56.775):

and she’s literally back in that time and it ain’t romantic so

(00:47:05.833):

wow do you know what are you reading um i am i’m having an alistair mcintyre summer

(00:47:11.138):

so i am reading um right now i’m finishing up a read of after virtue and

(00:47:17.004):

then who’s justice which reality okay i’ll be reading next um reading a book

(00:47:22.569):

a newer book by freya india who is a oh yeah i know who she is yeah girls um

(00:47:28.840):

yeah having two gen z daughters and two gen z sons i’m going to read it and

(00:47:35.784):

then uh fact check the book with them after she’s a bright lady she’s

(00:47:40.827):

a very she is she really is yeah she really is so that it’s

(00:47:44.689):

an enjoyable read another difficult one but she’s a good writer so it’s it’s fun

(00:47:48.851):

to go through that’s fun

(00:47:53.471):

well we could probably talk about books literally all day between the three of us

(00:47:58.652):

but thank you for joining us on the podcast thank you for your work in

(00:48:03.753):

the program you i think have had a significant role not just in our cohort but

(00:48:08.254):

from everyone we’ve talked to in previous cohorts and there’s some significant work

(00:48:12.815):

that happens in the course that you teach and so on behalf of everyone i don’t know

(00:48:17.836):

if i can presume this but on behalf of everyone who’s come

(00:48:20.337):

before us almost thank you

(00:48:22.220):

almost everyone on behalf of almost everyone i get a poison panel every time

(00:48:27.920):

the cohort meets so

(00:48:28.980):

90 percent

(00:48:33.980):

of the previous students will say um are thanking you and we’re part

(00:48:38.620):

that 90 thank you for your time it’s fun yeah well thank you thanks guys god’s peace

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