For Context: Bible and Context Interlude

Episode # 09

🎙️ Episode Overview

Podcast Show Notes: For Context

Episode Title: From Missional to Contextual: Leading in the Great Unraveling Hosts: Gino Curcuruto & Luke Stair Guest: Dr. Alan Roxburgh (Pastor, Teacher, Writer, and Consultant)

Episode Summary

In this episode, Gino and Luke sit down with Dr. Alan Roxburgh to unpack a fundamental shift happening in theological education and church leadership: the transition from “missional leadership” to “contextual theology.” Drawing from his recent book, Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling, Dr. Roxburgh offers a piercing critique of how the Western church reacts to decline with anxiety and quick fixes. Instead of trying to “fix” what is broken, he invites leaders to embrace a different imagination—moving away from corporate metrics and stepping into the role of an “abbot,” gardener, or midwife to cultivate presence, dwelling, and discernment in a changing era.

Key Takeaways

* The Evolution of ‘Missional’: In the 1990s, the term “missional” emerged (influenced heavily by Leslie Newbigin) to remind the church that mission is its core identity, not just a department. However, Western churches quickly co-opted the language into another programmatic strategy to fix declining numbers.

* The Shift to ‘Contextual’: Moving toward “contextual theology” is an attempt to escape the anxious, fix-it mentality of modern church growth and instead ask how to faithfully inhabit the specific, local reality where the church finds itself.

* The Ending of Modernity: We are not just in an era of change, but a change of era—the unraveling of a cultural framework that has existed since the 16th century. Modern human agency tells us we can figure out the answers and stay in control, but this new unknown space requires us to relinquish control.

* Reimagining Leadership Metaphors: Dr. Roxburgh challenges leaders to reject modern corporate leadership models and instead view themselves as:

* Abbots: Hold the rules of life, provoke practice, and look after the spiritual formation of a community.

* Gardeners/Farmers/Midwives: Cultivate environments, attend to growth, and assist in birthing what God is already doing, rather than manufacturing results.

* The Practices of Dwelling and Discernment: Instead of chasing a five-year strategy or mission statement, communities must learn the slow, long-term art of dwelling in a neighborhood, listening to stories, and discerning where God’s agency is already at work.

Notable Quotes

“Mission had really become in the language world of the Protestant churches a department, a program... missional stumbled upon a language that would say mission isn’t a program of the church, it is what the church is by its very nature.”

“We are in a massive, disruptive unraveling of the culture... How do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change and fix everything, but are ready to dwell and listen and attend to what God is doing amongst us in the local?”

“An abbot is one who simply lays down the need for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy. Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer.”

Resources Mentioned

* Book: Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling by Dr. Alan Roxburgh

* Book: Foolishness to the Greeks: The Gospel and Western Culture by Leslie Newbigin

* Thinkers/Figures Referenced: Pope Francis, Christian Smith, Descartes, Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, Mary Harrington.

Connect with Northern Seminary

Interested in joining the conversation or studying with leaders like Dr. David Fitch, Dr. Jonathan Tran, and Dr. Cindy Westfall? A new Doctorate of Ministry (D.Min) cohort in Contextual Theology is starting in June 2027.

* Website: seminary.edu

* Email Gino directly: [email protected]

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

* Alan Roxburgh: Leaving Egypt

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New Doctorate in Contextual Theology Cohort Starting in June 2027!

If you are interested in studying at Northern Seminary and learning from the likes of Drs. David Fitch, Jonathan Tran, Cindy Westfall, and many more, reach out to Gino: [email protected] for more information.

Transcript

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i’m gino curcuruto i’m luke stair and you’re listening to for context a podcast

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about northern seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology

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our guest today is dr alan roxborough al is a pastor teacher writer and consultant

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with more than 30 years of experience in church leadership consulting

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and seminary education his recent book forming communities of hope in

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the great unraveling is part of the conversation that we have with him

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but also he served as our

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professor in a recent contextual theology seminar and we’re going to reflect on

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that some of the

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things that we learned press him on a couple of questions that we had and just generally have

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great conversation so thanks for listening four context is brought to you by northern seminary

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for over 113 years northern seminory has been training women and men

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if you want to check out all of the academic offerings

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the northern seminary has including a doctoral ministry cohort

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in contextual theology please go to seminary.edu a new cohort for the d-min

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in contextual theology is getting started in june of 2027 if you’re interested

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or would like more information on how to come study

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with dr david fitch dr jonathan tran dr cindy westfall and others

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please reach out to me directly at gcurcuruto

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at seminary.edu that’s g c u r c u r again u t o at seminary.edu and i’ll give you

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the information we can chat uh welcome back to for context today gino

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and i have dr alan roxborough uh who if you’ve listened to any of

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the previous episodes you have actually been one of the favorite classes i think

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of everyone we’ve interviewed so far thank you

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uh which is high praise because there are a lot of great faculty so

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but we’re really excited to have you on the podcast for those

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who aren’t aware dr roxbro has been teaching in the contextual theology program

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since before it was the contextual theology program i think you’ve been with it

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since the beginning since the very first cohort yeah

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which is fantastic you know one of the things I think we wanted to talk to you

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about is the class we took with you was titled missional leadership and the program

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as you know used to be called missional leadership and we would love it

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if you would get into what’s behind that name and then why would a program move away

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from calling itself a missional leadership program and call itself

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a contextual theology program instead

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oh okay well um there’s a lot of things behind the name and why there would be

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a migration to contextual from missional i think that um back in the 1990s um the

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the question of mission and the west were being

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explored in

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profoundly anxious ways that is the in the 1990s the denominations

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the major ones the ones we mostly know who had been sort of

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the regnant culture protestant culture let’s just say of america um were discovering

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that they had been initially de-centered

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and that their place in the culture all

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the data was starting to show this that was not just slowing down

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but transforming you get a if I can find the book national leaders were having

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to come to terms with this new reality

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and basically the fundamental way they came to terms

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with it they wouldn’t have used this language but how do we fix how do we get back

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to the place in the culture that we’ve known particularly for our congregations etc

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and that anxiety and that search for a fix occurred at precisely the same time

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that missiologists particularly around Leslie Newbigin were coming to terms

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with their own question which is what is a missionary engagement with

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the modern west that was that was the language that Newbigin was using in

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for example foolishness to the Greeks and so these two things found each other

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in the 90s, probably late 90s.

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And those of us who were working with Newbigin’s question of mission in

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the West were aware that the language of mission inside the denominations

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of America had been turned into some

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form of programmatic event inside the churches so you had missions departments

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as well as you had evangelism departments or men’s ministry on and on you could go

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and so mission had really become in the language world of the protestant churches

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a department a program so each congregation would have its own missions committee

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as well as it had its own men’s ministry and women’s ministry and youth ministry and

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so those who were working in this area with Newbigin friends

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of mine actually

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were looking for a language that would say mission isn’t a program

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of the church it is what the church is by its very nature and that’s when

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the language of missional was stumbled upon and it was seen as being this sort

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of kind of language that would open the windows and the doors and give us

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a renewed grasp that the church was by its very nature shaped by mission so that’s

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where missional came from but

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what happened is that it got tagged on or it was created or it became alive at

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the very moment this other tsunami of anxiety was taking over the churches

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so you know church growth church this church that in the midst of it missional and

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so without belaboring at all without without this being intentional

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missional became the lingua franca of the denominations of the protestant churches

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without them understanding that what they did was bring into

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that language their own need to fix and get back to where they were and so

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over time missional sounded like we were all becoming missional

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if we could just canoe the mountains better we’d become missional all of that became

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the thing in the early 2000s and so i suspect that’s why

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a missional cohort was created in the early 2000s and seminaries created centers

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for missional blah blah blah blah blah largely because if they did it they get money

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from lily but the the um and

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i think it just took time i mean it still hasn’t penetrated

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that missional had simply lost its coinage it it simply meant how

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to make your church work in a culture where the church doesn’t work

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so i suspect that’s why and that’s why there was a shift to okay what

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then do we call it

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and the language of contextual emerges which is really trying to do exactly

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the same thing that the language of missional was trying to do but I think

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the language of contextual at least presents the ability to take a different tack

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than that that happened to missional but but I still have my hermeneutic

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of suspicion is still

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that by and large in most protestant denominations the drive to fix and the anxiety

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to turn things around is still pretty strong now probably as

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the boomer generation dies off because they’re the ones that have been in leadership

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that will change and contextual might hold a hopeful way

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of asking different questions do you think

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that yeah that’s great I have some questions about it I’m sure Luke does as well

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do you think that it’s a it’s primarily a timing issue that there was this anxiety

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at this time in the 90s when missional was was coming around

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or do we always have anxiety to grow the church and we’re going to co-op everything

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into a technique of some kind or something else am i tracking

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with you yeah yeah yeah well i mean timing certainly is part of it but um it’s

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it’s not overstating it to say particularly in the post right after the end of

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the second world war protestant religion in america was a hot thing people went

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to church and it’s no small thing that the the greatest period of church planting

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in america occurs from the 50s through to the 70s and so

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there is a sense in which these denominations had kind of a right to feel at ease

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in zion or at ease in babel whatever you want to call it

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and to be shocked when

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on their watch all that started to change so that’s one thing

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so has it always been this way well

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um i mean yes and no um yeah we are always creating idols and we’re always doing

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that but it’s not a but the the i i i would say that in america from the end of

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the second world war the protestant churches really did think they had the formula

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and that it worked and all was well

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and so you can understand the shock that began to happen in really in the late 80s

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when all this other i mean am i is that the question you’re asking yeah no

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that that’s actually really helpful because it’s revealing that i’m speaking

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from my perspective and this is like my own context right i i came to faith in

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the mid to late 90s like later

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hr in life so all i all i know is anxiety in the church about the church not growing

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the loss of like the the power that you’re naming or the centrality

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that you’re naming or that christian smith is naming or documenting

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in his book that’s really helpful to me yeah but you know

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the anxiety became very real in the 2000s but it wasn’t i would propose

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it wasn’t just and isn’t just the anxiety of kind of boomer technocrats who want

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a method to fix I would say that in the in many of the neo-reform movements

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that you see which are definitely not run by boomers but by younger cohorts

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that that anxiety is being addressed by if we get back

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to you know faithful preaching faithful doctrine clear articulation good teaching

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then things will change so you know i wouldn’t i wouldn’t

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that you’re probably not saying this but i wouldn’t reduce it to you know

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if we could just get over the boomers things would be different

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sure yeah and you have this uh i think gift of unmasking that very simple statement

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of if we could just and then fill in the blank yeah how do we how do we move

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beyond those if we could just blank kind of statements what’s how do we get past

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that mentality and framework of operating in ministry

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and church life well i i mean i think that um

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in

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a big picture way i would say i don’t know having said i don’t know let me tell you

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what to do

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if we could just listen to you

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so so i i think all of us

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when we find ourselves in a place that we’ve not been

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before our normal natural human instinct

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is to try to read it and interpret it through the lenses of where we are so

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in other words that’s another way a nice way of saying contextual missiology

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or contextual theology isn’t itself the magic solution right

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if you understand what i’m trying to say um the um and so you know i remember this

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in parenting where

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when my two boys were teenagers and they were way off in the weeds and their mom

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and my wife was really upset I remember deciding one day

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that this is enough I’m not going to let this happen anymore I’m going to fix it and

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of course the fixing it was what I was given growing up here are the rules abide

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by them or there’s going to be consequences

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so all of that was a an anxious reaction to the realities I was facing

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and my wife said no you won’t you will not lay down the raw if you if you do

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that you’ll lose them anyway and but I didn’t know what to do like if that wasn’t

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the answer what then do I do so all that all of that to say is

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that it is just natural and normal for us to be in some way reactive

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when our worlds start coming apart and you can’t pretend that that’s not

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the case it is always going to be the case um the second thing which is not going

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to be so you know i don’t want to pick on them but you can still

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and you can create your own list you can still see all kinds of things going

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on advertised on the internet and that

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of church events and programs and conventions that are all about fixing right and

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but here’s I mean to answer your question then is I think one of

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the most important steps is to come to a place of recognizing

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that there is no fixing where we are that we are in fact as Pope Francis said

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not in an era of change but we’re in a change of era and what that means is that all

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of us have been formed in particular kinds of narratives that we know

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and we’re comfortable with but when you enter a change of era by and large

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the skills the capacities the narratives the frameworks

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that we’ve been given are not gonna read and interpret where we find ourselves.

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And so I would say that the first important thing,

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Luke, is this awareness that we aren’t where we are anymore.

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And in fact,

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my language is we are in a massive disruptive unraveling of the culture that came

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into being

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probably in the 16th century and we came to call modernity that that period

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that era is coming to an end modernity itself is coming to an end

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and we are entering this unknown space which is a fairly disorienting dark time so

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the question you’ve got to ask yourself is how do we then live in that kind

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of reality and time

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how do we live in a time

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when there are no fixes doesn’t matter what your canoe is there are no fixes um and

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and the

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so if that’s the case what then do we do and you know as i’ve written in

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that in the book i recently wrote there are really important things

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that we can do very important things that we can do um

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to address that but one of the one of the critical

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characteristics or anthropologies

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of being human in the modern era is that by god we can get

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the answers we can know what to do and we can be in control right in other words

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we’ll pray when we’ve figured it out and we need God to bless it

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and so part of what

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then do we do how then do we live is how do we particularly

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as leaders how do we form communities that are no longer in a hurry to change

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and fix everything but are ready to dwell and listen and attend

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to what god is doing amongst us in the local without needing

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to know what it’s all going to look like and how it’s all going to work out

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in other words we don’t need to know what the roi is we don’t need

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to know what it’s all going to look like because we can’t and so we need leaders

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who can cultivate those kinds of communities yeah so you you also

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can see this as a gift i guess not just you personally al but all of us um

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that this unraveling can be seen as a gift of like getting us away from our grasp

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of control and as you kind of teach us and remind us of putting god’s agency

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at first discovery of god’s agency

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Yeah, and so there’s a gift in that,

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which seems to be consistent to me with the entire narrative of the Bible,

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always God inviting people to believe and trust God as the one who loves

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and is giving the best ways to live.

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We just seem to want to have control in some ways,

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and I’m wondering what are some of the practices that you would suggest to those

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who are listening to...

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to make that shift sure just before i answer that question let me let me talk about

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that question of control yeah and

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to realize this is not some secular modern thing this is the result and the product

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of christian imagination in the middle ages um for those who want to do all of this

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this is the emergence of nominalism it stuns scotus and his gang and without getting

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into it it is the emergence of a sovereign god who cannot be controlled

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and therefore isn’t predictable and you don’t know what this god is going to do

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all

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of that disrupts

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aquinas’s sort of great chain of being or rational universe in which we

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as humans had a place and so what you’ve got is as a result of that kind of kind

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of christian medieval evangelical imagination is this huge disruptive moment in

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which we as human beings no longer felt

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we had a place in the universe and i could go on and on around all of that

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the result was

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if you can’t figure god out god is not predictable then what you do

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and i’m conflating a lot of history what you do is you turn from the question

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of what is our relationship with god because that one’s too damn scary anymore

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and you turn to what is our relationship with are you ready nature and now we’re

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into descartes and all kinds of people um and the whole question

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then becomes number one human agency comes to the center of our lives and number two

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the location of human agency goes into the self

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so you are no longer seeking meaning out there in

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the universe you are seeking meaning inside the self

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as agent now that’s gone deep that’s what sociologists would call deep culture it’s

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all the way down right now in modernity so it’s not going to go away in a hurry and

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so

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if that’s the case that that’s contextually what’s going on which is why of course

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if you let me meander a little bit we’d like to you get all this bloody emphasis

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on discipleship and we’re going to create true disciples and real disciples

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and proper and and and these pastors and leaders are all trying to get

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the right discipleship going

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what they’re trying to do is say how do I shake these human beings

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whose very natural way of life is to go into themselves right

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which is why therapy is so popular anymore so you’ve got to gently invite people

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into practices and I mean I write about these in that book but

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and it’s hard work I mean this is not easy this doesn’t just pop up and happen

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because of all I’ve just said it is you know the practices I write about and talk

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about are number one how we begin to come to learn to dwell again in a place and

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with the people

(00:25:58.102):

so I dwell in this neighborhood I’m not planning to leave I’m not

(00:26:04.110):

but I dwell in this neighborhood in order to be with the people and get

(00:26:06.952):

to know them I dwell in my local congregation not in order for us

(00:26:12.775):

to create vision statements and mission statements but just to be there and together

(00:26:18.998):

and to listen and to engage each other’s stories so I do

(00:26:22.720):

that dwelling this is practice over a long period of time and in that dwelling I

(00:26:30.945):

with others begin to cultivate

(00:26:34.920):

a lost art of how do i discern in other words how do i learn again to ask

(00:26:40.664):

the question what’s god doing here rather than all the questions i’ve been trained

(00:26:47.067):

in which are now that now that we’ve uh now that we’ve seen

(00:26:50.889):

the needs how do we meet them or now that we’ve defined people as assets and

(00:26:55.692):

the assets they bring what are the assets that are missing and how do we do all of

(00:26:59.894):

that objectification of human beings

(00:27:02.716):

which are about my anxious needs to be important and have control how do i let

(00:27:07.939):

that go so it’s a long journey and therefore

(00:27:13.103):

the language i would prefer is not leaders who are pastors or apostles or all

(00:27:22.048):

that crap but how do we again become abbots

(00:27:28.412):

i think you’re gonna have to define that

(00:27:29.933):

a little bit for everybody

(00:27:32.773):

you mean there’s too many protestants on this there’s too many protestants

(00:27:40.337):

the

(00:27:40.718):

the um

(00:27:43.679):

there’s lots of ways of defining it but the the abba abbas male

(00:27:50.783):

and female were they um were this what would you call the spiritual leaders of

(00:27:58.628):

a community happened to be called

(00:28:02.929):

abbeys or monasteries and these communities were formed around a rule

(00:28:11.691):

of life right um i think i think benedictine is what prayer

(00:28:20.033):

and hospitality it’s prayer and work ora at labora ora and labora so

(00:28:25.834):

in other words they they came together around very very simple uh rules of life

(00:28:33.193):

we’re going to live this way as part not part but in the northumbria community

(00:28:39.574):

for me it’s availability and vulnerability so each day

(00:28:44.795):

through daily office i ask myself that question so anyway so you have a community

(00:28:49.576):

of people who are saying we are coming together

(00:28:54.757):

in order to live to pray

(00:28:59.218):

and work together in this place where we are

(00:29:03.827):

the abbot is the one who lives and works in the benedictine tradition

(00:29:11.490):

with his people who originally most of

(00:29:15.591):

whom were not ordained remember benedicts monastery were not ordained people

(00:29:23.694):

but lives and works with them in order to say to them how are you doing

(00:29:29.396):

with your rule of life

(00:29:34.637):

and they would listen and

(00:29:35.918):

the abbot would say why don’t you try this why don’t you

(00:29:43.124):

try daily office

(00:29:44.485):

or why don’t you why don’t you go and live with this group

(00:29:49.989):

of people anyway it wasn’t a set of rules but

(00:29:55.273):

the practices like daily office like all kinds of practices

(00:30:00.011):

we’re not this is what you have to do but here are ways in

(00:30:03.733):

which you particularly can be formed inside these rules of life so that was

(00:30:11.517):

the abbot’s work the abbot was like a father or a mother overseeing that work and so

(00:30:19.481):

the abbot the abbot was not you know i’ve just been called to this place

(00:30:26.657):

so you know i’m gonna live with them for a year just to see how they are and then at

(00:30:31.100):

the end of the year we’re gonna we’re gonna kind of have a retreat and come up with

(00:30:36.044):

a mission statement and vision statement and then after that we’re going

(00:30:40.027):

to develop our you know our planning and our strategy that’s that that’s not

(00:30:46.232):

the habit that’s modernity gone mad now behind that is a theology which is

(00:30:55.833):

in the formation and remember some of Benedict’s practices, one of them was stability, right?

(00:31:05.239):

We’re not going anywhere.

(00:31:12.624):

But by living in these practices,

(00:31:15.886):

you’re living as God’s people in uncertain times and uncertain places

(00:31:22.070):

and you’re confessing before God

(00:31:25.993):

we have no friggin strategy to fix all this but we are going to pray and work

(00:31:31.834):

or we’re going to be vulnerable and available and we’re going to let you do

(00:31:37.095):

the rest

(00:31:39.556):

now for so that’s I’m wandering away now but that’s what an abbot is

(00:31:44.997):

about okay and in our culture then an abbot is one who simply lays down the need

(00:31:55.299):

for a mission statement, vision statement, and five-year strategy.

(00:32:00.243):

Those things go out the window because all of them are about human agency wrapped in prayer.

(00:32:08.613):

now you you um you mentioned the the dwelling as

(00:32:12.416):

a practice there’s also we know we can read the book but we know the discerning and

(00:32:18.079):

then experimenting or exploring yeah right and so i’m just trying to relate this to

(00:32:23.323):

the abbot would an abbot be someone who

(00:32:28.157):

for lack of a better word just cares for people in those practices when you you ask

(00:32:34.662):

the question about like how are you doing with your rule of life

(00:32:38.986):

and making suggestions it’s just it’s maybe not necessarily an overseer but an elder

(00:32:45.091):

in some way they provoke they provoke their practice provoke the practice i like

(00:32:50.275):

that provoke that’s a good word but uh an abbot heads i mean an abbot is the ruler

(00:32:57.621):

right it’s not you know loosey goosey you know we’ll do what the hell we want

(00:33:03.384):

and thank you abbot no the abbot is the ruler the holder of the rule and

(00:33:10.148):

the practices but but not

(00:33:15.151):

the abbot doesn’t crack whips and the abbot cultivates

(00:33:19.053):

the spaces the environments the abbot lives in prayer for his or her people um

(00:33:26.737):

and forms them in a way of life yeah so um

(00:33:32.819):

yeah yeah and so to mix

(00:33:36.560):

the metaphors you know if modern uh church leadership kind of borrowing

(00:33:41.221):

from corporate ideals you know is a farmer it sounds like what you’re describing

(00:33:45.242):

as opposed to a farmer a managerial mass scale kind of project you’re describing

(00:33:49.804):

a gardener correct a gardener a farmer

(00:33:54.367):

those are good so there’s no single metaphor gardener farmer

(00:34:04.976):

I talk about midwife

(00:34:07.598):

and you’ll notice I use none of the leadership characteristics

(00:34:14.664):

from Ephesians right I’m not talking about prophet teacher da da da da da da da da

(00:34:24.028):

for some very particular reasons.

(00:34:28.471):

So yeah, those are the metaphors I would use.

(00:34:32.674):

Farmer, gardener, midwife.

(00:34:36.117):

This is the role of the abbot.

(00:34:42.141):

Now, the thing is that

(00:34:52.587):

abbey’s monasteries were closed orders right you when you came in you came in

(00:34:59.110):

and there were reasons for that um the the um

(00:35:04.051):

and you can’t well you could you could do that today you could say who are the bunch

(00:35:09.093):

of people that want to live by this but congregations don’t work that way yeah

(00:35:14.835):

the people still live by consumer choice whether or not we’re trying to shape them

(00:35:18.557):

into that absolutely right absolutely right and and and

(00:35:23.252):

my guess is it’s not that you give up it’s that you’re not going to change that in

(00:35:29.716):

a hurry consumer choice

(00:35:35.039):

is you know it’s not that it’s not that somebody

(00:35:39.983):

in North America kind of gets up one morning when they’re 8 or 9 and says I got

(00:35:45.306):

a choice I’m not going to be a consumer anymore

(00:35:49.989):

by very different definition they are

(00:35:52.942):

right and then you get into the question which is a contextual question how does

(00:36:00.826):

a culture change which gets back to how i responded to you at

(00:36:04.769):

the beginning uh luke i think my answer is i don’t know i honestly don’t know except

(00:36:15.074):

that probably it’s more like a virus getting into the bloodstream

(00:36:22.035):

than it is

(00:36:24.756):

most of the other ways and so how viruses get

(00:36:30.419):

into bloodstreams are it is very interesting like for example i would say

(00:36:35.821):

that going back to the 1950s or 60s or going back to the 1990s

(00:36:42.904):

when newbigin was writing and all this missional stuff

(00:36:49.447):

that was a period of time in

(00:36:50.968):

which

(00:36:52.781):

no matter what we said about the sixties there wasn’t going to be a lot

(00:36:57.763):

of basic culture change there was going to be a lot of stuff going on inside

(00:37:02.944):

the overarching shape of the culture but i would say

(00:37:07.026):

that now we are probably witnessing the early stages of the ending of modernity

(00:37:22.279):

and if somebody says what do you think is coming I don’t know but these are moments

(00:37:31.684):

when I think

(00:37:35.786):

putting abbeys together

(00:37:39.488):

become a possibility it’s one

(00:37:42.029):

of those hinge walls I find it very interesting that the question of monastery

(00:37:49.366):

is being asked more and more and more um i just need to like

(00:37:54.629):

for example someone i follow and know very well is as mary harrington uh podcasts in

(00:38:02.774):

the uk that’s the language that’s emerging there i was listening to certainly not

(00:38:10.838):

a christian by any means discussion of universities after ai

(00:38:18.147):

and the recognition that the university systems that we’ve created

(00:38:21.650):

as we know them have no future and what do we do with that and what I was hearing

(00:38:28.874):

from these people and these were let’s just call them secular academics is we need

(00:38:33.978):

to return to guess what the monasteries so there’s some sense that in the form

(00:38:42.784):

that they took our ways of being

(00:38:48.335):

in a culture that’s falling apart yes and and i would say

(00:38:54.176):

that i’m sorry go ahead no no i was just going to back up to the the question

(00:39:00.118):

of consumers choices and you mentioning that that’s not something we decide

(00:39:04.699):

to be consumers we’re formed into consumers and so from

(00:39:08.960):

the church’s perspective i mean this is not a solution but this is a suggestion

(00:39:13.727):

what if in the midst of this unraveling we stopped providing products to consume or

(00:39:19.970):

at least lessened the number of products that we were offering

(00:39:24.452):

and instead invited people into this way of life i mean i know that’s not

(00:39:28.573):

a solution necessarily but it could be a pathway for people what do you guys think

(00:39:33.515):

of that interrogate that for me go ahead luke oh man

(00:39:41.967):

that’s a difficult one you know i’m i’m at a larger church than gino and there’s

(00:39:46.631):

a sense that if we cease to offer those things we cease to have people yeah

(00:39:52.576):

and they will continue to be consumers

(00:39:54.858):

and they’ll they’ll just move down no no it’s not that they’ll continue

(00:39:58.241):

to be consumers you won’t get paid and you won’t have a job right which

(00:40:03.025):

the lord will do what the lord will do um but

(00:40:07.195):

you know i think in my community you know for to form an abbey it’s almost a sense

(00:40:11.859):

of you know not if we keep using this metaphor of monastery not every catholic

(00:40:16.983):

and medieval europe was part of the monastery exactly right right totally right uh

(00:40:22.347):

and so what does it look like to form sort of monastic ways of being within

(00:40:26.971):

the american church accepting that it will not be the totality of

(00:40:30.734):

the north american church it gets back to the old sodalities and modalities

(00:40:36.520):

there’s still something in there that’s worth paying attention to

(00:40:41.103):

absolutely so it’s not it’s not necessarily that that’s all we have

(00:40:45.684):

to do i was i’m not suggesting that i am saying though that if you are interested in

(00:40:50.925):

in something that might look more like a monastic community you’re gonna have

(00:40:56.386):

to make some some shifts because if people continue to look to you to be

(00:41:00.886):

the apest leader that al was avoiding talking about and i’m just kidding um then

(00:41:06.407):

then it’s uh a different kind of balance can we come for us

(00:41:12.089):

you have to change the way you talk and what you’re inviting people into and

(00:41:17.651):

so I know it’s an oversimplification but it is memorable to say one way

(00:41:22.113):

to stop having consumers is stop providing things to consume it’s one way

(00:41:26.214):

to do it I mean alongside of that and this always sounds

(00:41:33.557):

so bloody simplistic it’s I’m

(00:41:38.800):

Let’s say I was the pastor of a church.

(00:41:42.120):

I’m not here to change you, good or bad.

(00:41:45.920):

It’s not what I’m up to.

(00:41:48.140):

I’m here with you

(00:41:50.420):

to invite you into some practices

(00:41:54):

where we can discover perhaps

(00:41:55.780):

what God is doing.

(00:41:57.080):

Let’s give it a shot.

(00:41:59.460):

Secondly,

(00:42:01.380):

I’m Not In A Hurry

(00:42:06.540):

I ain’t going anywhere.

(00:42:08.514):

now that’s a pretty tough one to say but you know

(00:42:14.859):

it’s like that’s actually

(00:42:18.222):

the stance I take where I go to church I mean I’m not part of the leadership anymore

(00:42:24.768):

at any level but I’m there not to say well did they get

(00:42:31.794):

the flavor right this morning or could we improve not there, I’m there to say

(00:42:36.957):

who are the people I can friend and love and become a midwife with

(00:42:42.279):

and let’s see what might be emerging and you know what you’d be amazed

(00:42:48.321):

at what might be emerging and maybe more my age because I remember I was ready

(00:42:55.543):

to change the world but in the midst of that when I hear people

(00:43:00.385):

with their big plans yeah sure go ahead whatever but this is how God changes

(00:43:06.547):

the world

(00:43:07.366):

now the thing that most of us in north america don’t want to hear is that most of

(00:43:13.450):

the time the way god changes the world is five six hundred years

(00:43:20.676):

it’s not yeah

(00:43:21.857):

the six month plan or this kind of plan that’s right

(00:43:28.834):

well we are getting up against the time here but i know luke always likes

(00:43:32.596):

to ask someone this question at the end so and i know you’ll be ready for it al

(00:43:37.638):

so here you will this is a great question because it just makes my life better

(00:43:41.960):

in every respectable way what are you reading right now oh gosh i’m reading are you

(00:43:50.644):

ready i was born ready for this one

(00:43:54.351):

i was reading i’m reading michael allen gillespie’s the theological origins

(00:43:59.012):

of modernity wow

(00:44:01.753):

that sounds fun christopher smith’s why it became obsolete oh my god

(00:44:08.394):

the book i’m reading uh christopher bay has why i am not an atheist um

(00:44:15.536):

and what else i mean what else do you want to know i’m i’m reading um

(00:44:23.647):

all that sort of thing yeah well i’ll say no one gives

(00:44:29.071):

a reading list quite like you do and uh well that’s

(00:44:35.156):

a good thing oh i love your reading lists yeah yes

(00:44:38.098):

so i am i’m reading i just picked it up because i tend not to read novels

(00:44:45.784):

but um it’s called theo of um do you have golden theo of golden

(00:44:54.147):

somebody said you gotta read it and i picked it up last night and i’m loving it

(00:45:01.291):

and i’m going oh i mean i haven’t got into it very far so i may change my mind

(00:45:07.095):

but i’m going oh this is a wonderful primer in how to be in

(00:45:11.397):

a neighborhood there we go anyway uh i’m waiting for other books to arrive um yeah

(00:45:23.767):

what books are you reading right now oh man i am almost done

(00:45:27.929):

with frank machia’s jesus the spirit baptizer christology in light of pentecost

(00:45:32.570):

which is just an astounding work of theology and then i have just ordered uh

(00:45:40.313):

the right to sex and i cannot remember the author’s name for the life of me

(00:45:45.075):

the right to sex is that r-i-t-e or r-i-g-h-t r-i-g-h-t gino’s read it

(00:45:50.978):

before i have not

(00:45:52.721):

it’s a fantastic book it’s really difficult but not like

(00:45:55.703):

a difficult read just difficult content okay okay

(00:45:59.086):

an oxford philosophy professor talks about how pornography has shaped her students

(00:46:04.510):

and their understanding of sex and so she observes and writes

(00:46:08.693):

on what they’ve yeah what their experiences are it’s difficult gosh yeah i don’t

(00:46:13.857):

know that i’m looking forward to it but and

(00:46:16.719):

then my light summer read was project hill mary which again is a novel

(00:46:20.201):

but oh yeah yeah so good

(00:46:22.548):

a lot of people talk about that it’s

(00:46:24.789):

a great novel yeah i’m reading um i’m reading i think it’s called yesteryear

(00:46:31.171):

where it’s this novel about this trad wife who um creates a 18 something um farm and

(00:46:44.255):

of course videos everything she and her kids and everything

(00:46:47.997):

and got got all these followings and all of that and then

(00:46:52.390):

she’s a faithful evangelical or something and then wakes up one morning

(00:46:56.775):

and she’s literally back in that time and it ain’t romantic so

(00:47:05.833):

wow do you know what are you reading um i am i’m having an alistair mcintyre summer

(00:47:11.138):

so i am reading um right now i’m finishing up a read of after virtue and

(00:47:17.004):

then who’s justice which reality okay i’ll be reading next um reading a book

(00:47:22.569):

a newer book by freya india who is a oh yeah i know who she is yeah girls um

(00:47:28.840):

yeah having two gen z daughters and two gen z sons i’m going to read it and

(00:47:35.784):

then uh fact check the book with them after she’s a bright lady she’s

(00:47:40.827):

a very she is she really is yeah she really is so that it’s

(00:47:44.689):

an enjoyable read another difficult one but she’s a good writer so it’s it’s fun

(00:47:48.851):

to go through that’s fun

(00:47:53.471):

well we could probably talk about books literally all day between the three of us

(00:47:58.652):

but thank you for joining us on the podcast thank you for your work in

(00:48:03.753):

the program you i think have had a significant role not just in our cohort but

(00:48:08.254):

from everyone we’ve talked to in previous cohorts and there’s some significant work

(00:48:12.815):

that happens in the course that you teach and so on behalf of everyone i don’t know

(00:48:17.836):

if i can presume this but on behalf of everyone who’s come

(00:48:20.337):

before us almost thank you

(00:48:22.220):

almost everyone on behalf of almost everyone i get a poison panel every time

(00:48:27.920):

the cohort meets so

(00:48:28.980):

90 percent

(00:48:33.980):

of the previous students will say um are thanking you and we’re part

(00:48:38.620):

that 90 thank you for your time it’s fun yeah well thank you thanks guys god’s peace

For Context: Bible and Context Interlude

Episode # 08

🎙️ Episode Overview

Key Takeaways & Discussion Highlights

1. The “Monoethnic but Multicultural” Church

* The Toronto Context: Shu Ling describes his ministry context as a “mom-and-pop shop megachurch” serving roughly 4,000 attendees across three campuses.

* The Cultural Shift: Over the last two decades, the church has navigated a distinct shift from early Hong Kong Cantonese-speaking immigrants to a growing wave of mainland China Mandarin-speaking immigrants, all while the English-speaking ministry assumes a major leadership role.

* Beyond a Monolith: The episode highlights the insufficiency of the umbrella term “Asian-Canadian,” emphasizing that vast cultural, linguistic, and generational differences exist even within a single immigrant church body.

2. Deconstruction and Missional Megachurches

* Peeling Back the Strategy: Heavily influenced by theologian David Fitch, Shu Ling discusses breaking out of standard evangelical strategic “bubbles” (such as following secular corporate growth models or the next “ministry guru”) to look for where God is already moving in local spaces.

* Leading from the Margins: Rather than abandoning the megachurch after his doctoral work, Shu Ling chose to stay, acting as a subtle influence to help decentralize structures and make space for marginalized voices within the church framework.

3. Multi-Site Ministry vs. The “Cookie-Cutter” Approach

* Instead of forcing multi-site campuses into an exact replica or video-venue clone of the “mothership,” Shu Ling advocates for maintaining core DNA while heavily contextualizing the ministry, ecclesiology, and leadership to match the specific neighborhood’s needs.

Shu’s Current Reading List

Looking for your next great read? Here are the books and authors highlighted in this week’s wind-down question:

The Gods of More by Andrew Root: Evaluating the modern church’s entrapment in endless growth cycles and the desire for “more.”Culture Matters by Jenny Catron: Navigating organizational values and team clarity in a changing cultural landscape.

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

🤝 Join the For Context Community

If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news.

* Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com

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New Doctorate in Contextual Theology Cohort Starting in June 2027!

If you are interested in studying at Northern Seminary and learning from the likes of Drs. David Fitch, Jonathan Tran, Cindy Westfall, and many more, reach out to Gino: [email protected] for more information.

Transcript

(00:00:10.958):

I’m Gino Curcuruto I’m Luke Stare And you’re listening to For Context A podcast

(00:00:17.688):

about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology.

(00:00:24.705):

Hey everybody on this episode of For Context we have Shu Ling Lee who was in the

(00:00:30.846):

program a few years ago but he is pastoring up at a church in the Toronto area and

(00:00:36.447):

we have a great conversation about his context the dynamics of Chinese church in

(00:00:41.528):

Canada and his work and ministry there Welcome back to For Context I’m Gino and

(00:00:49.310):

Luke is here Hey

(00:00:51.432):

All right.

(00:00:51.872):

I always get Luke to do that every time,

(00:00:53.933):

just telling people that he’s here and then they make him make some kind of

(00:00:57.114):

guttural noise.

(00:00:57.994):

It’s excellent.

(00:00:59.815):

Fitch says we don’t have a radio presence and we’re just proving that week after week.

(00:01:04.316):

We really are.

(00:01:05.697):

But maybe today will be better.

(00:01:07.077):

We are excited to have our guest,

(00:01:09.758):

my friend,

(00:01:10.859):

a pastor in and a graduate of this program,

(00:01:14.100):

Shu Ling Lee is here with us.

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Xu, thanks for being on For Context for taking some time to be with us.

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Thanks for having me, guys.

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Glad to be here.

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Yeah, we’re excited to have you.

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I can see your hat.

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Our listeners won’t be able to,

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but I’m guessing based on your hat,

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you’re from the Toronto area.

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Yes, sir.

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Toronto Blue Jays hat on.

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So Shu,

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tell us a little bit about your context,

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your church,

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your ministry,

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you,

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where you are,

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what you’re doing.

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Oh, man.

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Yeah.

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All right, so I am from the greater Toronto area.

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I live in a suburb called Markham,

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and I work in another suburb adjacent called Richmond Hill,

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and the church that I currently serve in is Richmond Hill Christian Community

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Church,

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and it’s actually where a lot of my doctoral work focused on in terms of the

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specific location and area.

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Our area is...

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I like to joke around at times I call it like new Hong Kong or like now it’s

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becoming I guess new China a little bit a lot of more mainland China immigrants are

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coming in but yeah this area well let’s just say Canada in general Canada

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is a place where there’s trying to be multicultural,

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trying to be a place where people can practice their religion and culture in their

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own pockets of area very freely.

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So in our area, it’s very much...

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Chinese predominantly.

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Of course, it’s a mix of a lot of different ethnicities as well.

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But overall,

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there’s just a lot of Chinese people walking around this area or driving around

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this area.

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We don’t walk, I guess, in Texas too, Luke.

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I know it’s hard to walk around.

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Yeah, we are a commuter, a commuter culture.

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And that was actually part of some of my work as well that I had to look into.

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And

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Yeah, overall it’s been interesting.

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I’ve been at this church now, we call it RH3C, for...

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Over 20 years and I played many different roles and actually through this program

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at Northern through the demon program I actually helped to like we used to plant a

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lot of churches and then we have switched now to multi-site campus planting try not

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to do it in a typical way where it’s only cookie cutter but trying to see what that

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kind of contextual feel will look like a bit more but

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Of course there’s many different people at the table but God kind of nudged me in I

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guess now it’s been a year and a half through a bunch of different people at our

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church to consider taking on the executive pastor position

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And it’s not something I think I originally wanted to do.

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But the more that me and my wife prayed about it, we thought, okay, this is the season for this.

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And I’ve always seen kind of launching multi-site ministry as just kind of a

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stepping stone towards church planting and seeing where that comes about.

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And

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If I could help using whatever meager gifts that I have to help organize our church

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better and do that,

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organize our teams and build some values,

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maybe I could influence our church in a certain direction.

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And I guess I should also mention our church is about 4,000 people.

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So I like to affectionately call it a mom and pop shop megachurch.

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Yeah.

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Is that across the three campuses that...

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Yeah, basically, overall, it’s about 4,000 on a Sunday attendance, at least.

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And we,

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yeah,

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we,

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a lot of Asian churches have a bad rep.

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You know,

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it’s not just Asian churches,

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but in particular,

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tends to split,

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so it never grows that big.

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So our church,

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somehow,

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by God’s grace,

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I think,

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just did not split and has gotten to a certain size and with all of its

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ramifications.

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Well,

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one of the things you talked about that I think is interesting,

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I’ve spent a very small amount of time in the Toronto area,

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but talking to church leaders there,

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especially in the Asian church,

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what has it been like as your church’s area has moved from being like a little Hong

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Kong to more,

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you know,

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with a Cantonese kind of more linguistic framework to a more mainland China,

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Mandarin,

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I’m guessing,

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framework and culture?

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It has definitely been an interesting shift because,

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if I’ll say it this way,

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the Hong Kong Cantonese-speaking immigrants,

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when they came over,

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the English ministries that had to develop,

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because the main language is English in the area,

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that English-speaking group congregation that’s within this Chinese

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It’s kind of like the babysitting service, right?

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You’re just kind of babysitting for these adults, these immigrants who came over.

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And then this English group starts growing and it’s like, oh, wait, we should be involved too.

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And what does it mean for us to be part of this church?

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But because Chinese culture is quite patriarchal in general there is this kind of

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okay just listen to dad or listen to grandpa you know because this is what you got

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to do so in the end that’s why I would say there’s some of these church splits that

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happen or these people that just leave the church there’s a silent exodus in

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Chinese immigrant culture

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And they just leave without saying anything because they don’t want to cause any

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stink because you should be good to the family,

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collectivist kind of mentality.

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But what ends up happening in our context if the English now,

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we’re finally starting to see some churches where the English is becoming the

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leaders of the church.

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There’s more of a majority coming on that.

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And even in our context, even while I’m in this position, by all means, I’m 43 now.

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And I think in,

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I don’t know,

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other churches,

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Western churches,

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43 is not that young,

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but I could still be seen as a young’un,

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right,

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for the longest time.

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So, but our lead pastor currently for our whole church is English-speaking.

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And actually,

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it’s funny,

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both of us,

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his name is Ho Ming,

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my name is Shu Ling,

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and yet the rest of our staff have English names,

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but we have Chinese names,

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go figure.

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But with that,

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just to kind of get to your question With the Cantonese speaking immigrants who

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first started this church And then the English now kind of leading Now you have

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this other group as well So we have three languages in our church Cantonese,

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English,

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Mandarin We even see our youth and children as another group demographic But with

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now English taking the lead of a few things Even though the Cantonese is still the

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biggest group

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We have this emerging Mandarin group That is a different culture Like Mandarin

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speaking And from China Is very different than even the Hong Kong British colonized

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group Cantonese speaking group So we’re in this weird situation Where it’s like

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These guys are immigrating in Trying to be part of a Chinese Almost Cantonese

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speaking group They’re trying to join that But it’s like they have their own

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Mandarin speaking group But if English is leading the charge

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we look culturally very different than they do so I like to say in our Chinese

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church context we are pretty multicultural even amongst in our group and we’re like

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a lot of the lessons we learn we just are able to kind of navigate when we engage

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non-Chinese as well like we’re like and

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What’s been cool recently,

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too,

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has been our next biggest group in our area are Persian-Iranians.

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And there’s a Persian-Iranian fellowship group now that feel more comfortable in a

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Chinese church than in a quote-unquote multicultural church.

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Or if I were just to say, well, sometimes I...

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Well, it depends.

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I don’t know.

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Caucasian man leading that multicultural group, it’s going to be in that direction.

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But some of them feel more comfortable in a more immigrant-based church.

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So that’s been the navigation of it all,

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trying to learn what it means to be multicultural,

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intercultural in that way.

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One of my friends pastors Montreal Chinese Baptist Church and the way he describes

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his church is that it’s monoethnic but multicultural which I think is a you know

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I’m coming from a very different context and so I think for most people who aren’t

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familiar with Asian church and Chinese churches I think it’s easy to think oh it’s

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all the same but really there’s such cultural differences between these groups so

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I’ve dominated the question so I’m going to turn it back to you

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I was just thinking that you just give a really good personal storytelling example

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of how insufficient the term Asian is.

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that like there there isn’t it isn’t a race and there there isn’t like an Asian

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Canadian is not one context not monolithic much less an Asian American or anything

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so thank you just for that insight I’m curious about a lot of things I mean I don’t

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want to move away from what you just shared that’s really really helpful but I’m

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wondering about your like your project when did you when did when were you in the

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program you were you were a little while back right

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yeah i think i would man you’re making me have to remember this no you don’t have

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to give us the dates or anything but i think it was like 2017 i started or

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something that 2017 yeah graduated it was called contextual theology then luke and

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i are learning no it was it was missional leadership like so i’ll tell you guys the

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only reason why i went down this program was because

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Fitch came to this kind of theology pub,

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which is already kind of,

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ooh,

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you know,

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a theology pub,

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you know,

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downtown.

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Edgy.

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And then, yeah, so edgy in our area, right?

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But then we went to hear him.

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He was debating another, you know, kind of reformed dude.

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I can’t remember his name.

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And then when I... Yeah, of course.

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Yeah.

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And then he was...

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A lot of the things that he was saying were very thought-provoking.

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My brother at the time was,

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I think,

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part of the emerging church movement,

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kind of reading a lot of their material.

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And he’s like, hey, you should check out some of David Fitch.

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And I was reading some of it.

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I was like, oh, this is very provocative stuff.

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And I want to kind of read more into it.

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And at the time, I believe like our...

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Our English-speaking side had a very lack of missional fervor, missional identity.

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And what we were doing was just,

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oh yeah,

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we do these revival meetings to get people saved,

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just like our Cantonese parents and stuff we’re doing.

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So what does that look like for us?

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And we don’t do revival meetings anymore.

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What does that look like?

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And yeah, so at that time, it’s listening to Fitch.

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It’s like, oh, this is interesting.

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Okay, let’s check out this program.

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Let’s see what it’s about.

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And

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Then,

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oh man,

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my brain just got blasted to oblivion,

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you know,

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listening to Fitch and being,

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yeah,

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challenged in a lot of ways I don’t think I ever was in any context I’ve been in.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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Do you remember a particular class seminar that was impactful for you?

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I mean,

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if you’re getting blasted all over the place,

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was there a point where it was kind of like maybe coming together for you?

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Well, yeah.

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I don’t know,

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maybe for you guys,

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for the listeners,

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like you might be coming to some other place.

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I grew up in this kind of evangelical bubble where you just did church in a particular way.

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And of course, in our Chinese church side, and I talk about this in some of...

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my thesis,

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but we were super impacted by Billy Graham,

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by whatever’s the popular Christian reading culture at the time.

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So a lot of our influence came from whatever was free,

(00:13:14.138):

John Piper,

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Desiring God,

(00:13:16.820):

Gospel Coalition,

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Mark Driscoll.

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A lot of these things were impacting us at the time.

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So it’s coming into Fitch’s work where he was able to go

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Well,

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let’s peel back the layer here,

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not just because of reform theology or reform thinking,

(00:13:32.564):

but if evangelicalism is doing church in this way,

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is this actually engaging,

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you know,

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are we actually following Christ?

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What are we doing?

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Are we just doing it by our own power, our own strategies?

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I’m in a large church.

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I’m already getting ripped apart.

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Actually, in my class, people kept making fun of me.

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It’s like, oh, that’s megachurch shoe.

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That’s my context.

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I’m like, yeah, I’m eating this stuff up.

(00:13:59.550):

I’m trying to see, is it just because of our strategies following Rick Warren or Bill Hybels?

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We’re trying to follow the next guru.

(00:14:07.075):

Is the next

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Fitch’s work really peeled back the layers to help see,

(00:14:13.228):

well,

(00:14:13.368):

are we actually following in what God is doing already?

(00:14:15.369):

You know, what is God doing in our neighborhoods?

(00:14:18.291):

Are we joining in what he’s already doing?

(00:14:19.932):

And I think

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Part of that was a big realization, wait, why am I trying to control all these things?

(00:14:43.446):

How are we being better at discerning God’s presence and what he’s already doing here?

(00:14:48.689):

How can we join in?

(00:14:50.550):

And that takes a lot of humility.

(00:14:53.352):

And in a larger church strategic world,

(00:14:59.636):

you’re just trying to go to the next thing or be more attractive or getting the

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next cool thing going.

(00:15:05.760):

And that’s a lot of stuff where I...

(00:15:08.207):

I really resonated with,

(00:15:09.608):

I’m like,

(00:15:09.988):

you know,

(00:15:10.448):

I don’t think it’s about finding the next cool thing so that we can attract people

(00:15:15.310):

to because if anything,

(00:15:16.831):

what I realized is what you win people with is what they’re going to start trying

(00:15:20.553):

to win other people with.

(00:15:22.094):

And does that look more faithful to following Christ in everyday life?

(00:15:25.935):

Does that look like being the church that we’re supposed to be?

(00:15:30.037):

And that was at least one of the first formative things that Fitch started breaking

(00:15:34.800):

open in my mind.

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Well, one follow-up before maybe I let Luke back into the conversation.

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No, Luke is listening intently, everyone.

(00:15:42.827):

Was there a crisis moment for you in this?

(00:15:45.087):

Because you’re still in a megachurch, and I think that’s a really important and good thing.

(00:15:52.570):

I’m not coming into this as a critic.

(00:15:55.071):

You didn’t leave.

(00:15:56.211):

This didn’t deconstruct you in such a way where you’re like,

(00:15:59.232):

no,

(00:15:59.412):

we’re going to just go start a group around a table and call that my job.

(00:16:05.436):

Yeah, here it is.

(00:16:08.759):

No, that’s a very good question.

(00:16:10.801):

No, I am still deconstructing.

(00:16:12.582):

Okay.

(00:16:13.503):

I just,

(00:16:14.904):

I think personally,

(00:16:17.287):

I’ve just felt God hasn’t given me the,

(00:16:20.430):

hey,

(00:16:20.630):

it’s time to move on or whatnot.

(00:16:23.853):

There has been something still happening

(00:16:26.437):

For Context for Context for Context

(00:16:41.158):

What does it look like to engage our discipleship more seriously than just going to

(00:16:49.620):

some kind of class or going through only this one-on-one class or whatever kind of

(00:16:56.082):

thing?

(00:16:56.262):

But what does it look like to truly love people in our neighborhood and to hear

(00:16:59.843):

what God is doing?

(00:17:00.723):

And there is an openness to it.

(00:17:03.713):

Now I’m going to throw Fitch under the bus Fitch was like You know what Shu?

(00:17:11.618):

You know Shu?

(00:17:14.539):

I’m trying to do his Stanley Haroist Shu,

(00:17:19.382):

now that you’re in this position Use their money,

(00:17:22.344):

man Use their resources And test things out I was like,

(00:17:27.727):

yeah man I don’t have a

(00:17:33.463):

This is kind of where God has placed me and there is some people that I’m still

(00:17:38.072):

living life with around the table.

(00:17:40.337):

And part of even launching some of this multi-site ministry has been

(00:17:44.323):

Well,

(00:17:44.544):

it’s been part of my efforts in terms of how I got to influence how some of that

(00:17:49.288):

looked like.

(00:17:50.349):

I’ve used some of Fitch’s ways of thinking through the three tables.

(00:17:55.113):

Thinking through how to engage not just on a Sunday,

(00:17:58.395):

but at our tables in our lives and at the world’s table.

(00:18:01.618):

What does that look like?

(00:18:03.600):

And it’s given...

(00:18:05.581):

I think an expanded way to follow Jesus in the neighborhood for our people.

(00:18:12.805):

And there has been some reciprocal things at our church that have given me enough

(00:18:16.607):

to go,

(00:18:16.967):

okay,

(00:18:18.228):

God,

(00:18:18.608):

if you’re still putting me here,

(00:18:19.829):

then I’ll do this.

(00:18:21.110):

And to some degree,

(00:18:22.911):

which has been kind of really weird,

(00:18:24.211):

guys,

(00:18:24.872):

I am doing,

(00:18:26.353):

if I’m doing this executive pastor position,

(00:18:27.873):

I see myself times,

(00:18:28.834):

this is my bivocational ministry right now.

(00:18:31.569):

I’m kind of doing the executive pastor thing 9 to 5 and then evenings and the

(00:18:37.352):

weekends I’m kind of helping with my campus site and I’m trying to expand what that

(00:18:42.735):

looks like for them and that’s kind of my bivocational ministry right now in the

(00:18:48.237):

neighborhood

(00:18:50.297):

I think of a lot of times the people that feel like they have this like great idea

(00:18:56.201):

for starting a new church around the table.

(00:18:59.023):

They’re going to be pure and do it like the right way, quote unquote, and they have no people.

(00:19:05.390):

And then there’s,

(00:19:06.110):

but they might be the,

(00:19:07.111):

and I might be in that group,

(00:19:08.472):

you know,

(00:19:08.732):

I might be from that group and casting stones at the larger churches that they’re

(00:19:13.154):

doing it wrong.

(00:19:13.474):

You’ve never done that, Gino.

(00:19:14.635):

What are you talking about?

(00:19:16.376):

I haven’t.

(00:19:17.657):

Not today, at least.

(00:19:18.757):

And I think that the thing that I love about this,

(00:19:22.239):

there’s so many things that I love about what you’re saying,

(00:19:23.880):

but it’s like,

(00:19:24.580):

there are people and God loves those people too,

(00:19:28.202):

in those large churches.

(00:19:30.163):

And your expression of like, not

(00:19:33.885):

releasing your not leaving just because you got a new idea,

(00:19:37.228):

but loving them because you’re called to be there.

(00:19:40.030):

It’s just so beautiful.

(00:19:41.250):

I think I need to be the one to just make sure that I say that so people don’t

(00:19:44.433):

think like Luke does about me.

(00:19:49.076):

No, I appreciate that.

(00:19:50.478):

I think there’s, like, there’s so much to critique in what we’re influenced by.

(00:19:55.385):

Heck, I’m reading right now, or audiobook right now, The Gods of More by Andrew Root.

(00:20:02.235):

And there’s certain...

(00:20:04.058):

So, you know, it’s written to us, right?

(00:20:07.259):

It’s written to the people in the larger churches.

(00:20:09.639):

And it’s like,

(00:20:10.140):

you’re going through this growth cycle and trying to thinking,

(00:20:13.180):

oh,

(00:20:13.400):

are we doing this because God wants it?

(00:20:15.041):

Or because we’re just trapped in the cycle of wanting more,

(00:20:18.142):

being more creative and thinking these things will be,

(00:20:20.162):

you know,

(00:20:21.182):

solving the issue of,

(00:20:22.463):

you know,

(00:20:23.603):

of following,

(00:20:24.623):

oh,

(00:20:24.843):

these people don’t know Christ yet or they don’t know.

(00:20:26.544):

So we’ll do more creative things and just get more.

(00:20:29.084):

And the cycle just continues to be perpetuated.

(00:20:31.825):

But what does it look like to be sacrificially following Christ in the neighborhood?

(00:20:36.227):

At the table,

(00:20:36.827):

like you were saying,

(00:20:37.928):

it could be,

(00:20:38.848):

and I’ve talked to some of my peers who are not in a large church and who are

(00:20:42.830):

trying some of these things,

(00:20:44.190):

it could look fruitless.

(00:20:46.852):

It could be like you’re banging your head against the wall,

(00:20:49.533):

but at times I’m like,

(00:20:51.153):

but that could be faithful,

(00:20:52.114):

just being patiently with that group.

(00:20:55.035):

But then at the same time,

(00:20:56.236):

I’m also like,

(00:20:56.856):

I see the other side where I’m trying to be patient with this large sucker

(00:21:03.398):

How do I walk with these people and they may not be in the smaller setting but

(00:21:09.740):

they’re in a larger setting they’re influenced by the world influenced by tradition

(00:21:15.102):

of where our church and this kind of sometimes over glamorized way of seeing what

(00:21:20.303):

church is and I’m trying to say hey let’s go beyond this and try to see what has

(00:21:26.225):

God called us to do and how do we actually be faithful in the midst of that and

(00:21:31.865):

I think both processes are hard.

(00:21:33.607):

Yes, absolutely.

(00:21:34.367):

To be honest.

(00:21:36.029):

Well, Shu, you are speaking my language as a fellow.

(00:21:40.493):

I mean, technically my church is a megachurch, but it’s one third the size of yours.

(00:21:46.498):

So how do you make...

(00:21:49.938):

Studied as a contextual theologian,

(00:21:51.739):

even though technically it was missional leadership at the time.

(00:21:54.601):

I got both.

(00:21:55.941):

I got both in there.

(00:21:57.002):

Yeah, I got to be missional leadership contextual theologian.

(00:21:59.443):

You’re a missionally leading contextual theologian.

(00:22:04.286):

In this megachurch context,

(00:22:05.987):

which I think statistically is anything over 1,000 people is what’s defined as a

(00:22:09.769):

megachurch.

(00:22:10.270):

I could be wrong on those stats.

(00:22:12.311):

Yeah.

(00:22:13.127):

sounds like for Canada but for the US it’s more or something for the US I think

(00:22:17.317):

it’s a thousand for Canada I think that threshold lowers yeah

(00:22:21.356):

But how do you bridge this?

(00:22:23.337):

How do you bring in these conversations about contextual theology into the large

(00:22:28.281):

church context,

(00:22:29.922):

which generally is not a contextually oriented organism?

(00:22:36.387):

Because eventually your church hits a size where it just has a certain gravity that

(00:22:40.790):

it thinks it can ignore context.

(00:22:45.633):

So how do you, as a contextual theologian, missional leader, whatever you want to call yourself,

(00:22:51.403):

Start to kind of seed those ideas Live those things out In your context In your day

(00:22:56.449):

job So one thing That’s a great question by the way Luke I think I’m asking for

(00:23:03.537):

myself This is a very selfish question One thing I think

(00:23:08.923):

that are,

(00:23:10.044):

at least in the Chinese church,

(00:23:11.585):

Chinese immigrant church,

(00:23:12.566):

that has a kind of built-in contextual talk.

(00:23:16.289):

Like we are,

(00:23:17.070):

we cannot only,

(00:23:18.892):

you know,

(00:23:19.192):

in a megachurch,

(00:23:20.013):

usually it’s streamline the message and get alignment.

(00:23:24.096):

Everyone has to do this and it has to be,

(00:23:25.798):

you know,

(00:23:26.078):

almost cookie cutter or franchise,

(00:23:28.040):

franchise way,

(00:23:28.640):

all this kind of stuff.

(00:23:30.062):

In the Chinese church,

(00:23:31.144):

you are aching over and over and over to contextualize language,

(00:23:36.735):

framework,

(00:23:37.276):

direction to these different people groups

(00:23:40.856):

And I think it’s just we labor so hard to do that.

(00:23:43.117):

That’s already within what already we do.

(00:23:46.278):

In my thesis,

(00:23:47.758):

one of the things that I tried to bring to the attention,

(00:23:50.279):

well,

(00:23:50.759):

and this was from Chinese church to the universal church,

(00:23:56.461):

but the Chinese church,

(00:23:58.002):

what it has to offer,

(00:23:58.982):

I think,

(00:23:59.342):

to the world to some degree,

(00:24:02.023):

I quote my thesis supervisor,

(00:24:04.524):

Amos Yong,

(00:24:05.964):

He wrote a book called The Future of Evangelical Church and he looked at various

(00:24:10.488):

soundings from the Chinese diaspora in North America and he was talking about how

(00:24:17.274):

we need to think through what a minority report from those disenfranchised voices

(00:24:24.681):

can contribute to the bigger picture

(00:24:27.511):

And I think in the Chinese church,

(00:24:29.212):

we at times,

(00:24:30.052):

many times have this built-in framework where the English was speaking into the

(00:24:34.214):

Cantonese and now the Mandarin is speaking into the English,

(00:24:37.595):

all these kinds of things that are happening all at the same time.

(00:24:41.037):

We just,

(00:24:42.197):

for the sake of even just staying together,

(00:24:44.618):

have to be contextual to how do we listen to each other?

(00:24:48.240):

How do we create space to not just power over someone?

(00:24:52.802):

And

(00:24:53.828):

It’s been an interesting space now that the Western side of leadership is in

(00:24:57.492):

approach because sometimes Western leadership can try to flatten leadership,

(00:25:01.716):

at least try to,

(00:25:02.637):

hopefully not just CEO-style leadership,

(00:25:05.179):

but flatten leadership a bit.

(00:25:07.762):

But how do we talk to each other at the table?

(00:25:09.784):

How do we discern what the spirit is telling us together?

(00:25:13.347):

And I think...

(00:25:15.305):

At least in my context,

(00:25:16.826):

it’s been like a way that I think has been helpful is that minority report coming

(00:25:21.489):

from,

(00:25:21.729):

hey,

(00:25:22.790):

are we listening to some of the grumblings or complaints?

(00:25:26.171):

Are we listening to some of the people talking in this way?

(00:25:28.993):

And can we talk through it?

(00:25:30.314):

Can we still have space for that, provide space to have those conversations?

(00:25:34.076):

And even at our sheer size,

(00:25:36.765):

We still do.

(00:25:37.846):

We still have those conversations.

(00:25:40.147):

And it’s not systematic,

(00:25:42.389):

but it’s like in various places,

(00:25:44.790):

we’re still having these conversations.

(00:25:47.092):

And probably why I still stay here is because we do.

(00:25:50.614):

We still practice that kind of contextual process listening so that we can see,

(00:25:58.159):

hey,

(00:25:58.299):

what’s going on here?

(00:25:59.140):

But

(00:26:00.107):

Theologically is a different story, I’ll be honest.

(00:26:03.248):

Of course,

(00:26:03.988):

we skew to a certain direction theologically,

(00:26:06.808):

but the conversations,

(00:26:09.209):

for example,

(00:26:09.749):

even now having a campus site,

(00:26:12.449):

I can have conversations with people about what is church,

(00:26:16.350):

about what is this different kind of ecclesiology,

(00:26:19.050):

trying to bring in these different perspectives,

(00:26:21.291):

and there’s more space to talk about those things.

(00:26:23.971):

And I think just part of my job...

(00:26:29.191):

at the church,

(00:26:29.652):

what I’ve tried to do is to be a subtle influence to decentralize the church to

(00:26:34.856):

have those conversations.

(00:26:36.817):

And that’s part of the,

(00:26:37.858):

you know,

(00:26:38.138):

I think some people think multi-site campus,

(00:26:41.661):

you know,

(00:26:41.901):

planting is planting a church that just looks like the mothership or just plays a

(00:26:47.806):

video or whatnot.

(00:26:49.547):

And for me, I’m like more, no, we have the DNA of what we want to kind of to birth out.

(00:26:56.393):

But

(00:26:57.232):

We should be contextualizing what that looks like to engage that area and to have

(00:27:01.374):

conversations and build up new leaders,

(00:27:04.135):

build up people and have different conversations at the table.

(00:27:07.657):

I think that’s my hope for some of that.

(00:27:11.058):

So Shu,

(00:27:11.639):

because there’s this,

(00:27:12.619):

it sounds like there’s this built in because of the people that make up the church.

(00:27:18.262):

There’s this built in practice of listening to the quote unquote other,

(00:27:23.944):

you know,

(00:27:24.344):

and listening to the other voice.

(00:27:26.445):

What you were describing as a contextual understanding of leadership and all that.

(00:27:32.226):

Then I hear you say that even in the way that you’re doing the multi-site,

(00:27:36.267):

that there’s now this opportunity to leverage the same kind of listening to other

(00:27:44.549):

voices that you do relationally and probably keeps you guys from having a split

(00:27:49.030):

anyway.

(00:27:49.710):

You do that to talk about

(00:27:51.650):

Methodology, ecclesiology and structure.

(00:27:54.793):

What is the church?

(00:27:57.394):

Am I tracking with you on that?

(00:27:59.676):

Yeah.

(00:28:01.177):

It’s like the...

(00:28:03.164):

Sure, there’s formal sides to the table.

(00:28:07.847):

If I didn’t mention before, we follow in Rick Warren’s purpose-driven tenets.

(00:28:12.730):

That’s where some of our tradition comes out of.

(00:28:14.571):

Our church grew because it hit a baby boomer population that really gravitated

(00:28:19.314):

towards that,

(00:28:19.694):

translated that into Chinese,

(00:28:20.835):

and they ate it up.

(00:28:22.435):

They ate it up.

(00:28:23.036):

But then now this next generation is like,

(00:28:25.748):

This doesn’t relate to me at all.

(00:28:27.690):

What does it look like?

(00:28:28.711):

Who cares about this five purpose stuff?

(00:28:32.314):

Whatever.

(00:28:33.315):

But what does it truly mean to follow Christ in where we’re placed, where we’re at?

(00:28:39.922):

Us, like part of, you know, my job as a leader was getting them to ask that question.

(00:28:44.886):

What does that look like?

(00:28:45.826):

How do you do that together?

(00:28:47.107):

How are you going to pray and discern about that being led by the Spirit together?

(00:28:51.270):

And it’s been,

(00:28:53.291):

like,

(00:28:53.672):

to even have space to talk about that versus,

(00:28:57.294):

oh,

(00:28:57.394):

wait,

(00:28:57.835):

our megachurch has a slogan and this is what you do and we’re all about this,

(00:29:01.918):

so make sure,

(00:29:02.518):

just repeat that and,

(00:29:04.139):

you know,

(00:29:04.579):

go with it.

(00:29:05.080):

I’m like,

(00:29:06.442):

I’m glad our church hasn’t got to that point,

(00:29:09.365):

though,

(00:29:09.905):

of course,

(00:29:10.245):

we do have our own way to communicate what our church is about.

(00:29:14.228):

But there has been openness to talk through those things in various levels.

(00:29:19.433):

And that’s kind of why I appreciate still being in the space of it.

(00:29:22.835):

That’s great.

(00:29:23.656):

Luke, do you have any follow up?

(00:29:24.697):

Did he answer the question for the way that you did?

(00:29:27.339):

Yes.

(00:29:28):

Yes.

(00:29:29.263):

Well done.

(00:29:30.425):

You know, I think, you know, you talked about you’re reading Andrew Root’s book.

(00:29:35.331):

What else is on your reading list right now?

(00:29:36.792):

This is kind of always a fun wind down question.

(00:29:39.776):

Gino and I always come away, I think, with a new thing to read.

(00:29:43.801):

Yes.

(00:29:45.718):

Oh man,

(00:29:46.539):

so okay,

(00:29:47.619):

then here’s the anti-contextual theology stuff that I can tell you what I’m

(00:29:51.621):

reading,

(00:29:51.862):

but as I’m trying to help our church be on the same page to some degree,

(00:29:58.626):

it’s to kind of revisit our values as a church,

(00:30:02.027):

and a lot of times,

(00:30:04.349):

and I have a staff of like 70,

(00:30:06.690):

80,

(00:30:07.531):

and I guess I’m like the XO a bit at the church,

(00:30:10.753):

I have to kind of

(00:30:13.206):

How do you get the troops together to move forward?

(00:30:17.709):

And thinking about that is just how do we...

(00:30:19.831):

So we’ve had to re-clarify our values.

(00:30:22.954):

So our founding pastor, by the way, he retired seven years ago.

(00:30:28.118):

And we’ve only now have kind of gotten to a point where we can start taking steps.

(00:30:34.403):

Because the founding pastors...

(00:30:37.113):

Kind of leadership was so strong and he’s been involved in other ways And actually

(00:30:41.576):

our staff has almost completely turned over from the old guard to the new So we’re

(00:30:46.960):

in a place,

(00:30:47.641):

again,

(00:30:47.901):

this is probably why I’m here too That we’re able to influence and kind of go in a

(00:30:53.185):

certain direction and create culture What does that look like to kind of revisit

(00:30:57.568):

your vision and values at the church?

(00:31:01.990):

What does it look like to do that?

(00:31:04.193):

So some of the books that I’m looking at,

(00:31:06.337):

there’s a book called Culture Matters by a lady named Jenny Catron that she’s

(00:31:12.446):

written.

(00:31:12.746):

She was like an executive in the CCM days.

(00:31:17.012):

For Context

(00:31:32.894):

That’s a book that’s been on my docket right now.

(00:31:41.018):

But if you want to go on the contextual theology route, let me share with you one thing.

(00:31:45.560):

And I don’t know, Luke, you went through the demon program, right?

(00:31:48.982):

We’re both current students.

(00:31:50.203):

Oh, you’re both current students.

(00:31:51.523):

Okay.

(00:31:52.624):

And after Fitch’s program, after the demon program, I did not read a book for a few years.

(00:31:59.748):

Okay.

(00:32:02.717):

I did not read a book for a few years and it’s only like now I’m back into a full

(00:32:09.483):

swing where I’m like okay now it’s time to kind of read and think through certain

(00:32:13.626):

things like again but

(00:32:17.025):

I’ve used a lot of my materials that I was influenced by,

(00:32:22.329):

like the cultural analysis piece by Andrew Root,

(00:32:25.831):

any of his kind of whatever in the congregation,

(00:32:29.213):

the secular age in the congregation,

(00:32:31.715):

in the pastor,

(00:32:32.375):

that has been fantastic.

(00:32:33.996):

material,

(00:32:35.737):

reading some of Nije Gupta’s material recently in terms of his work on the Apostle

(00:32:42.900):

Paul.

(00:32:43.881):

A lot of my influence for my thesis came from Scott McKnight,

(00:32:48.282):

and a lot of his material was helpful for me to re-understand.

(00:32:51.804):

I didn’t even talk about the gospel.

(00:32:52.985):

That was a lot of stuff that I was critiquing in my church context, by the way.

(00:32:56.366):

But yeah, a lot of Scott’s books helped on that end.

(00:33:00.168):

But

(00:33:01.509):

I think recently where,

(00:33:03.390):

and I think I heard from some of your other,

(00:33:04.970):

I was listening to some of your other podcast interviews,

(00:33:09.011):

AI I think is coming in big right now and trying to wrestle with what that means

(00:33:15.173):

for us in a world where people are like,

(00:33:17.633):

when I’m preaching,

(00:33:18.474):

I’m even telling people

(00:33:20.165):

Are we being disembodied because we’re not even, you know, engaging each other anymore?

(00:33:25.691):

That maybe, you know, the loudest voice has become AI.

(00:33:30.455):

It’s not become, like, because it’s just easier, more convenient.

(00:33:34.024):

How do I talk to the other person across the table?

(00:33:36.746):

How do I talk to this person in my neighborhood or in my small group?

(00:33:39.848):

What does that look like?

(00:33:40.889):

And is God speaking on that end?

(00:33:43.051):

And this kind of challenge of AI,

(00:33:45.352):

I think some of you might have saw the Pope Leo recently writing about that.

(00:33:51.617):

That’s a very interesting space for us to be in.

(00:33:53.618):

Will we become a culture that’s formed by

(00:33:56.839):

That’s great.

(00:33:57.359):

Love it.

(00:34:16.212):

Yeah,

(00:34:16.512):

well,

(00:34:18.312):

I do have another whole episode with you in mind now because I want to talk about

(00:34:22.933):

AI.

(00:34:24.034):

I want to get it.

(00:34:24.534):

Let’s have an AI panel.

(00:34:25.814):

Let’s do that.

(00:34:26.814):

Let’s get it.

(00:34:27.274):

It’s you and John Manson.

(00:34:29.035):

Yeah.

(00:34:29.395):

Oh, man.

(00:34:30.495):

John was the biggest, biggest crap disturber in our class, and it was awesome.

(00:34:37.177):

He poked at Fitch all the time.

(00:34:38.537):

I loved it.

(00:34:39.557):

Yeah, I miss that.

(00:34:40.737):

You can’t imagine him doing that.

(00:34:42.538):

You can’t see it, right?

(00:34:43.618):

Yeah.

(00:34:45.097):

Now that’s yeah but we definitely need to get you back on talk more about your

(00:34:48.783):

thesis we only referenced it a little bit but we’re at the end of our time so we’ll

(00:34:53.169):

do it another time but thank you so much for being on with us really appreciated

(00:34:57.435):

your time and your insights really

For Context: Bible and Context Interlude

Episode # 07

🎙️ Episode Overview

How do our backgrounds, cultures, and current life situations change the way we read the Bible? In this episode, Gino and Luke dive into the complexities of Contextual Theological Interpretation. They explore why traditional academic methods sometimes fall short by ignoring the “cultural blinders” of the reader and discuss how listening to global voices—from Indonesia to New Zealand—can unearth truths in the text we might otherwise miss.

Key Discussion Points

The Three Caricatures of Interpretation:

New Testament Studies (Historical-Critical): Focusing heavily on Greek, verbs, and the original 2,000-year-old context, sometimes neglecting how that meaning lands today.

Theological Interpretation: Relying on creeds and church tradition to guide meaning.

Contextual Interpretation: Taking social location (like poverty or oppression) seriously.

The “Translation Model” vs. The “Container”: Luke discusses the metaphor of the Gospel as “water” that takes the shape of whatever “container” (culture) it is poured into.

The Pitfalls of “Objectivity”: Why “objective” historical-critical methods often lean on European or American frameworks without realizing it.

Global Perspectives:

The Prodigal Son in Russia: Why readers who have experienced famine notice different details than Western readers.

Philemon and Onesimus: How Black interpreters offer a different, highly probable perspective on the slave/master dynamic that differs from traditional white Southern interpretations.

The Maori Experience: The fascinating history of the Bible in New Zealand and the “Teteriti” (Treaty).

Communal Discernment: Gino shares a practical three-question framework for reading the Bible in community to break out of individual biases.

Notable Quotes

“We are actually bad at ignoring context... it’s easy for us to neglect the culture we are actually trying to study.” — Luke Stehr

“God cares about all of it, and the scripture can speak life into everyone coming in with all those different things.” — Gino Curcuruto

“The Bible is a place where we encounter God, or more accurately, God encounters us.” — Luke Stehr

Resources Mentioned

Books:

Contextual Theological Interpretation by Dr. Bo Lim

Models of Contextual Theology by Stephen Bevins

Preaching in a New Key by Mark Glanville

Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes by Richards & O’Brien

Concepts:

Polycentric Mission: The idea from Alan Yeh that mission is “everyone to everywhere.”

Try This Experiment

Gino suggests a communal reading practice involving these three questions:

* What stands out to you in this text? (Listen to others’ stories without front-loading information).

* What is God saying to us? (Discussing the implications for your specific community).

* How should we respond together? (Moving from interpretation to action).

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

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Transcript

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I’m Gino Curcuruto I’m Luke Stare And you’re listening to For Context A podcast

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about Northern Seminary’s doctorative ministry in contextual theology Welcome back

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to For Context I’m here with Luke He’s here What’s up?

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Alright Today we are going to have a conversation about the Bible and contextual

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theological interpretation or just contextual interpretation

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I’m not exactly sure.

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So we have in a couple of weeks, Luke, we have a class on something around that subject.

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We’ve been reading and preparing for months for this class.

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And we are going to learn about different ways to interpret the Bible and why...

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not why it’s important to consider context in your biblical interpretation.

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So when I say that, why is it important to consider context in your interpretation?

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What comes to your mind, if anything?

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Oh, man.

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It’s a lot comes to mind, actually.

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And I think it’s really so many times we ignore context.

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I think that’s a large issue.

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I think history of just like how we teach the Bible both like in a church level and

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at like an academic level and I know you’re planning on getting into this I won’t

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steal your thunder too much but I think we’re actually bad at ignoring context on

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both polls because I think it’s easy and we’ll unpack what the historical critical

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approach is in a little bit I think it’s even easy for us to neglect

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Even in a historical critical framework on the culture that we’re actually trying to study.

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And that’s so complicated.

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I mean, that’s why we continue to have biblical studies.

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And that’s why even the historical critical field continues on is because it’s so difficult.

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for us to analyze,

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study,

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understand a culture that’s at least 2,000 years old and is in a very different

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place with a very different framework.

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You and I are both white American men.

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A lot of the historical critical approach is either European or American frameworks.

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And so integrating...

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Just a different view of culture is so challenging.

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And that’s why historical critical continues.

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But I think it continues on not recognizing the pitfall of context on both ends,

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the context here and the context then.

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And so, yeah, we’re going to just dive into that.

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But that’s what comes to mind is it’s just insanely difficult.

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Yes, there’s a lot of complexities happening.

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Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off there.

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No, it’s all good.

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Yeah, I think...

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I don’t know that we’re in this episode we’re going to resolve this with like a

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process here’s how you do it because we’re kind of coming to you with some

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experience with a lot of like thought and experience in this but also we haven’t

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taken this class so we haven’t really fully formed our our full um

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I would say our assumptions are in us coming into this,

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but we haven’t kind of resolved some of those ourselves.

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And come take the seminar if you want to have those things resolved for you as well.

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But let me do a...

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Yeah, like a Fitchian move here and hyper caricature each of these different approaches.

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Love it.

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Kind of try to say, here’s why this is a problem.

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So you have the New Testament studies people, which he often likes to...

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David Fitch,

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who is over the Contextual Theology Program at Northern Seminary,

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just for people who lack context.

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There you go.

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Thanks.

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Thanks.

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Thanks, Luke.

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That’s very helpful.

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So they’ll study the Greek and

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and the parsing out verbs.

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They’ll think about the historical context there,

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what was happening there,

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and then just take that meaning and kind of put it onto current times.

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Now, I don’t know that there’s necessarily any scholar that does it exactly that way.

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That’s why it’s a caricature.

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But the emphasis in this caricature is on

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The original language is what is the meaning in that context and if we know more

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about that then we can understand what the meaning is for today lots of truth in

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that maybe not the full story then you’d have like a theological interpretation

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which

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Relies on Tradition,

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Creeds,

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those things,

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takes them into account as we consider what is that text saying for the church

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throughout time into today.

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Again, caricature of that.

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At least saying the tradition.

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So then I guess the question is whose tradition, which tradition, right?

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Now you’re getting it complex.

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And then we’ll have a contextual interpretation where people will take their social

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location really seriously,

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kind of the situation.

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One of the most well-known kind of contextual theologies would be liberation

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theology,

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like taking really seriously what the scriptures might say for those who are

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oppressed and in poverty.

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And I think that’s important.

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Oftentimes,

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though,

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that interpretation will favor certain texts over others is one of the critiques of

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that.

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Maybe even to the neglect of other passages that

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that may not fit that context or that interpretation.

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That is a critique of it.

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So we have this complex situation,

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and I’ve made it even more complex by making it a caricature and not an actuality,

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right?

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In the midst of that,

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one of the books that we read was Contextual Theological Interpretation by Dr.

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Bo Lim,

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and he makes a case for kind of working all three of these together.

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And then I’ve also read some critiques of his case that he makes as well.

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And it’s really interesting to me, though, to say that all of these things matter.

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How do you hold them in tension?

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And I don’t know that we’re going to resolve this, Luke, but I’m saying...

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Which of those aspects are you maybe inclined towards and which one maybe have you

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kind of had to lean into?

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That’s a great question.

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So I am coming out of, I’m in a Baptist tradition.

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I’m Baptist educated through and through.

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I did theological education at a Baptist,

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Southern Baptist undergraduate,

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and then did my Master’s of Divinity at a non-Southern Baptist seminary.

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And so for those of you who are not Baptists,

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I love that you add that to the context,

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a non-Southern Baptist,

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Baptist university.

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Very good.

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Yeah, you got to clarify.

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Yeah.

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And so the Baptists love the Bible.

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And so I grew up Baptist.

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And so everything is so word driven, Bible driven.

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And there’s a huge appreciation for historical critical interpretation in those environments.

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And so as I went to seminary coming out of undergraduate, I had some Bible classes, um,

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But as I went to seminary,

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there was a major emphasis on the historical critical in my Bible classes.

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But on the other hand, my concentration in seminary was world Christianity.

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And so I was getting this kind of double exposure.

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to these very different fields and so started to be exposed to the work that,

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you know,

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like Stephen Bevins in Models of Contextual Theology references David Heslegrave.

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Well,

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I read David Heslegrave’s very fat cross-cultural communication book,

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which is a great book,

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but it is so thick.

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And so,

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you know,

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at the same time as I’m getting this historical critical approach in my scriptures

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classes,

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I’m getting this very

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linguistic theory cultural theory cultural anthropology very much like a

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translation model approach of contextual theology still within that which I think I

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tend to lean into the translation model of contextual theology which is a Stephen

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Bevan’s models of contextual theology thing and

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which you’ve kind of hit the nail on the head and historical critical tends to

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borrow from this translation model of contextual theology which is this idea that

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there is a core message and culture is this kind of the language that I often use

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in world Christianity classes is kind of the clothing that we can change and shape

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I think there’s a really famous book called Living Water in an Indian Bowl but

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basically like

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I think Michael Frost wrote a book called Mission is the Shape of Water and Mission

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is just the shape of the container but at the core it’s still just water and so

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this translation model very much borrows off these metaphors that you know the

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gospel message is like water it just takes the shape of the container that it’s in

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or it’s like the clothing we wear and so the gospel is able to wear the clothes of

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any culture um

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And so I’ve lost my train of thought because I’m under-caffeinated right now.

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But I’m going to keep going and we’ll see where we wind up.

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But really, it’s holding these things in tension.

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I think historical critical has a lot of strengths.

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I think Fitch can be really hard on it.

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But I think the pitfalls of historical critical come in when we...

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are unwilling to grapple with our own cultural blinders in approaching the text.

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So one of my most vivid memories growing up in my Southern Baptist church,

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I grew up in a town that had a Southern Baptist university with respected Bible

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professors.

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And I remember I was a kid, I was maybe nine years old,

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the age my daughter is and we have these like Sunday night Bible studies that are

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being taught by these professors which is a super Baptist thing to do I don’t know

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if the Christian Missionary Alliance would ever be like that’s what we should do is

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bring in a Baptist we should bring in a Bible professor to teach our people the

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Bible like Baptist churches go nuts for that kind of thing but where he’s working

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through Romans and I you know for the most part have sat down and

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not tuned in but we get to Romans 16 and he starts teaching about Phoebe and

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ultimately is just like talking about the role of deacon and she’s not really a

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leader in the church and I remember raising my hand as a child which is just my

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personality and asking like but it says she’s a deacon and

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He’s like well it says she’s a deaconess it’s the feminine version of the noun and

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basically is applying his own cultural assumptions about Phoebe’s role in the

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church of Centraea to the text and so so often and this is the pitfall I think if

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historical critical and why we need a more contextual theological interpretation is

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we forget that we actually bring a context into the text

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yes and so I’ve talked about Mark Glanville on here before his book Preaching in a

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New Key has been so helpful for me because one of the things he talks about in

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sermon writing is what’s the through line and the way that I would describe it is

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really like in preaching or teaching the Bible or writing about scripture what

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you’re really trying to do is figure out how you get the text into this context and

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the context into this text and

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And to get them to speak to one another.

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And that’s why we need contextual theological interpretation.

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Because without it,

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I think it’s easy to go in in a historical critical approach,

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not recognizing that you’re actually bringing a context to the text.

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And that’s so hard to be aware of.

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Yes,

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that’s so I didn’t grow up in the church,

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you know that but so I didn’t have any of those Bible profs coming in on a day and

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I didn’t get to ask any of those controversial questions.

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As a nine year old, I asked other controversial questions.

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Yeah, I’m sure you did.

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That’s probably for another podcast.

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You and I have never asked controversial questions.

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But I love and really relate,

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maybe because of not having a church background,

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I came with a lot of assumptions about the scriptures,

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some of them that I was aware of,

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most of them that I wasn’t.

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But I never had anyone tell me that all of that bridge building that I’m doing

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is based in certain biases that I have.

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The way that I understand the culture around me,

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the assumptions that I make about what would be contextual is not interrogated.

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I hear you saying like in these different global Christianity and all of these

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other aspects,

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we have to consider the language is even different.

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So the assumptions could be different.

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And that becomes more obvious.

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But see,

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there was also this inherent bias in the teaching that I received,

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which was,

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well,

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there’s this true interpretation and now you just have to figure out how to say it.

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to people who don’t know the true interpretation yet,

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rather than saying there’s different ways of understanding what this true

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interpretation means in our context or something else.

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And I found that to be very on brand with the kind of Christianity that says like,

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hey,

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we have the truth and we just have to figure out how to finagle it into your

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understanding so you can be like us,

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which is not true.

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not healthy at all.

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Let’s just say it that way.

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No.

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And that’s, yeah, it’s so complicated.

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And that’s why I think it’s so key.

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And one of the,

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I think the best things that’s happening right now in biblical scholarship is there

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is a higher level of engagement with the global church than I think there has been

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in a long time.

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And I think so much of this is described in what Alan Yeh calls polycentric mission.

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And really, it’s just this idea that the

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he would say mission I’m going to say the church is everyone to everywhere but I

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think that’s trickling into scholarship as well and so you’re starting to see like

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a higher level of cross pollination or at least I am I also serve on like a global

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committee so that could just be my bias but you are starting to see this cross

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pollination of

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Christians from different cultures are now contributing to scholarship and allowing

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context different contexts to actually speak to one another which is a way of

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strengthening contextual local theology is by putting it in conversation with other

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local contextual theology because it has this way of exposing blind spots providing

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really great insight into what it looks like you know I think some of the things

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that have been pivotal and helpful for me and just thinking through how do

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Christians make sense to have government things and government policies and

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encountering New Zealand Christians.

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If you don’t know, I did not know the Christian history of New Zealand until a year ago.

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The British arrived and the first missionaries actually shared the Bible with the Maori people.

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And the Maori people actually took it.

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And they were like, oh, the Gospel of Luke, this makes sense.

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And they actually started just living it.

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They stopped cannibalism and started communal sharing.

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And the British missionaries were like, oh, we don’t know if that’s it.

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But they made something that was...

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should have been really good.

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It was called Teteriti or it’s the treaty.

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And it lasted for about 10 years.

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And then basically the British came in and didn’t follow the treaty that they set

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with the Maori.

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You don’t say.

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You don’t say.

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But now there are Maori Christians who are basically trying to help the church in

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New Zealand figure out like,

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what does it look like for us

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Together as Maori people and white settlers to live out the treaty that we set

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because the treaty set way back in the 1800s actually had huge religious

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implications as well.

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And so what does it look like for us to live that out together?

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And so there’s some fascinating work being done,

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but that helps us think about like,

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well,

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what does it look like for us to relate to government,

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to think about how we relate to power structures here and

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It’s not a one for one exchange,

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but it is a thing that just makes you go like,

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okay,

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well,

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if they’re doing that,

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then how can we do this?

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And so you’ve got to engage the voice of other contexts.

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There needs to be a generosity.

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I mean, one thing is...

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The scholarship that’s been happening globally being received by those who are kind

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of the gatekeepers of power in a lot of these areas,

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which has its own issues that we have to have those conversations,

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obviously.

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But I think it’s for the...

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For the person in the church who maybe isn’t necessarily preaching or studying

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these things the same way,

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I think that you see this,

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depending on where you live,

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you see this of the way of conversations,

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listening to people that are different from you,

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and then not assuming that they have no value because they’re different.

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like there’s been some reckoning with that it’s not we still have a lot of work to

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do obviously but I just think about what’s that maybe a little bit yeah maybe just

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a little bit but I’m just wondering like you know we we this is this is the same

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kind of language that we need to develop for our our interpretation that we just

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need as citizens now I live in Philadelphia it’s a pretty

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Pretty multicultural, multi-ethnic city.

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I’m friends with not one,

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not two,

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but three Indonesian Mennonite pastors in the same neighborhood.

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And having conversations with them, especially when they’re

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For Context

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No,

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we’re actually considering the importance of these issues because we have a 90%

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immigrant population within our church.

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And so the issues are different.

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And actually, we don’t want people to make loud statements.

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statements about things to draw attention to our movement right now.

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We want to fly under the radar because that’s safer.

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I’ve heard that before,

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you know,

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and I think that’s a totally different assumption about power and about speaking up

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from someone who’s in the majority culture,

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you know.

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And so to say that,

(00:20:06):

that may be how we think about things socially,

(00:20:08):

but then think about how we bring that to the text,

(00:20:11):

right?

(00:20:13):

When we’re looking at it, there was a thought experiment.

(00:20:16):

It was replicated in a New Testament class I took with Nije Gupta.

(00:20:20):

I don’t remember where it came from.

(00:20:22):

You probably know, but looking at the parable of the prodigal son,

(00:20:31):

In a Western context, you know, and you read it and you ask, like, what stands out?

(00:20:36):

And people will talk about the son leaving the father, dishonoring the father.

(00:20:41):

But in a Russian context, I remember the story.

(00:20:44):

Every single person who heard it,

(00:20:46):

the first thing they pointed out was that there was a famine in the land.

(00:20:51):

That’s the first thing that it says in the story.

(00:20:53):

There’s a great famine.

(00:20:54):

And so they picked up on something in the text that most people who haven’t

(00:20:59):

experienced a famine or poverty of that sort totally miss.

(00:21:05):

And so I get a little bit worked up when people assume that contextual

(00:21:12):

interpretations bring something to the text.

(00:21:15):

you know like they’re adding something into the text rather than and you didn’t say

(00:21:19):

this I’m not pushing back on you I’m just getting myself elevated autonomously here

(00:21:24):

I think that I get upset about that because I think we actually are missing so much

(00:21:30):

of the text by having one single set of eyes on it and by having multiple

(00:21:36):

experiences come to the text we actually hear a fuller picture of what God might be

(00:21:43):

communicating I’m fully convinced of that

(00:21:45):

Yeah, well, for example, you know, we have the letters of Philemon, Onesimus has come to Paul.

(00:21:54):

Paul basically is writing this letter saying I’m sending Onesimus back to you not

(00:21:57):

as a slave but as a brother so for so much of like European and American and white

(00:22:03):

American historic interpretation of that text the assumption has been Onesimus has

(00:22:09):

probably stolen from Philemon he’s wronged Philemon in some way and he’s run away

(00:22:16):

out of shame and has come to Paul to basically Paul help me save me

(00:22:22):

One interpretation.

(00:22:23):

Nowhere in the text does it actually tell us if anyone was wronged,

(00:22:26):

how they were wronged,

(00:22:28):

why Onesimus is not with Philemon anymore.

(00:22:32):

Black interpreters have been really helpful pointing it out that this

(00:22:36):

interpretation that continues on that Onesimus is the one who wronged Philemon is

(00:22:42):

the same interpretation that slavers used throughout slavery.

(00:22:45):

And so we’re still using the same interpretation from white slavery dynamics in the

(00:22:50):

American South.

(00:22:52):

Whereas it’s just as likely, just as probable, that Philemon is the one who wronged Onesimus.

(00:23:00):

And Onesimus is now going to Paul to basically say, like, I need help.

(00:23:04):

My master’s wronged me.

(00:23:06):

And they’re using kind of this Roman social structure to appeal to Paul for help.

(00:23:10):

And furthermore,

(00:23:11):

what that actually suggests is you have a slave living in a Christian household

(00:23:15):

where the church was meeting

(00:23:18):

He was ready to meet Christ,

(00:23:20):

receive the good news because he goes to Paul and it happens almost immediately.

(00:23:25):

But for whatever reason,

(00:23:26):

he’d been excluded from the church that met in the home,

(00:23:29):

in the household where he was a slave.

(00:23:32):

And so he was not treated as an equal person.

(00:23:35):

as a valid participant in the church life within that household,

(00:23:39):

which is just a radically different way of approaching that very tiny letter that’s

(00:23:43):

so significant.

(00:23:45):

And so we have to listen to these other voices because the reality is everyone is

(00:23:51):

bringing something to the text that they’re not aware of.

(00:23:55):

I mean,

(00:23:55):

this is,

(00:23:55):

I think,

(00:23:56):

the strength of the book,

(00:23:56):

Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes,

(00:23:59):

which is a great popular level book,

(00:24:01):

I would say.

(00:24:03):

so anyone can pick this up and read it it’s not like a huge dense communication

(00:24:08):

theory book but recognizing that you are bringing something to the text and it is

(00:24:13):

changing the way you hear it you read it you interpret and apply it it’s so key

(00:24:19):

Yeah,

(00:24:20):

I know I said that we weren’t going to resolve this,

(00:24:22):

but I want to give people an experiment they could try if they’re not doing it.

(00:24:26):

And because it’s something that that has really helped me and it’s a continual practice.

(00:24:30):

It’s it’s it’s kind of an Anabaptist ish.

(00:24:34):

practice of communal discernment around biblical interpretation.

(00:24:39):

So get together with some Bible reading friends,

(00:24:43):

read a text,

(00:24:45):

and maybe consider asking three questions.

(00:24:47):

We do this, I do this almost twice a week, every week with people.

(00:24:51):

What stands out to you is the first thing.

(00:24:54):

This is similar to the dwelling in the word that we learned from Al Roxborough,

(00:24:59):

who will be on the podcast shortly.

(00:25:01):

But

(00:25:02):

But what stands out to you?

(00:25:04):

And then don’t give any background or anything.

(00:25:07):

Don’t give people any kind of front-loading of information that changes their assumptions.

(00:25:15):

And see how the people around you have different things that stand out to them

(00:25:20):

based on their story.

(00:25:22):

And this might not even be a diverse group of people.

(00:25:26):

I’m just

(00:25:26):

For Context for Context for Context

(00:25:45):

in light of these stories.

(00:25:47):

And then we’re trying to discern what is the message that God might be

(00:25:50):

communicating to us in this time.

(00:25:52):

We’ve had some conversation about what maybe some of these things mean or what

(00:25:56):

stands out to us and what it means.

(00:25:58):

And then the third question we ask is, how do we think we should respond together to this?

(00:26:06):

And that movement through those questions always brings up all kinds of

(00:26:12):

Goodness,

(00:26:13):

challenging things,

(00:26:14):

disagreements,

(00:26:15):

but often,

(00:26:16):

I mean,

(00:26:17):

every time there’s something that comes up that I wasn’t thinking about because I

(00:26:21):

don’t have the capacity to do that.

(00:26:23):

But also I think hearing people responding to the scriptures based on where they

(00:26:28):

are in that moment,

(00:26:29):

not just where their social,

(00:26:31):

their social location,

(00:26:32):

but I’m like their temporal location.

(00:26:34):

What happened to them?

(00:26:36):

We had a tragedy happen among people in our community,

(00:26:39):

well,

(00:26:40):

related to people in our community,

(00:26:42):

where a very,

(00:26:44):

very well-respected and loved and influential woman in a nearby church who’s just a

(00:26:51):

gift to the church was tragically

(00:26:54):

hit and run and she was killed at the scene of this accident while she was going to

(00:27:01):

pick up a friend from a hospital which is exactly what she would be doing at 5 in

(00:27:05):

the morning just always serving the body and their neighbors

(00:27:09):

and the people ran away.

(00:27:12):

But that week,

(00:27:13):

the person who was closest to her and the way he was interpreting the scripture or

(00:27:18):

what was standing out to him was different because of where he was then coming

(00:27:22):

from,

(00:27:23):

entering that space than me.

(00:27:24):

And I think that’s, I think God actually cares about that.

(00:27:27):

I’m not saying that your academic trajectory has to change because of your emotions.

(00:27:33):

I’m simply saying God cares about all of it and the scripture can speak life into

(00:27:38):

everyone coming in with all those different things.

(00:27:40):

What do you think about that, Luke?

(00:27:42):

Oh, I think that’s absolutely true.

(00:27:44):

Yeah.

(00:27:47):

Yeah.

(00:27:49):

Allow scripture to speak.

(00:27:51):

It is at the end of the day.

(00:27:52):

And I think this is,

(00:27:53):

again,

(00:27:53):

a risk in any school of interpretation,

(00:27:56):

whether it’s contextual,

(00:27:57):

theological,

(00:27:58):

or historical,

(00:27:58):

critical.

(00:28:00):

First and foremost, the Bible is a place of encounter.

(00:28:04):

I don’t want to deify scripture.

(00:28:06):

It’s not the word in the Bible is not the word, as in the second person of the Trinity.

(00:28:13):

But it is, in a sense, it’s an event.

(00:28:17):

It is

(00:28:19):

Where we encounter the living God and God encounters us through Scripture.

(00:28:23):

And so that is what it is first and foremost.

(00:28:26):

And that’s the beauty of it.

(00:28:27):

You know,

(00:28:28):

my grandparents had,

(00:28:29):

I think,

(00:28:31):

one had an eighth grade education and one,

(00:28:32):

I think,

(00:28:33):

finished high school.

(00:28:35):

So, you know, not pros at historical critical interpretation.

(00:28:40):

But God spoke to them through Scripture.

(00:28:42):

And they didn’t need...

(00:28:44):

and masters of divinity to do this.

(00:28:46):

So first and foremost,

(00:28:48):

the Bible is a place where we encounter God,

(00:28:51):

or more accurately,

(00:28:52):

God encounters us.

(00:28:55):

So let it be that first, and then use these kind of schools of theological thought.

(00:29:02):

I’m obviously going to promote more contextual theological interpretation,

(00:29:07):

because I think what that does is it

(00:29:09):

it strengthens the historical critical put the two together because they belong

(00:29:12):

together we still need historical critical because what that’s doing is it’s doing

(00:29:16):

the work of unearthing a past far removed context but you need the contextual

(00:29:22):

theological to help connect it to what’s happening today and recognize that what is

(00:29:26):

happening today is coloring the way you see what’s happening then so do those

(00:29:30):

things together now I kind of want to switch gears we’re gearing up for another

(00:29:36):

cohort meeting

(00:29:38):

And this podcast is about the program.

(00:29:41):

So Gino,

(00:29:43):

what are some of the things that stand out to you as you’re prepping to be together

(00:29:48):

for a week with Dr.

(00:29:50):

Cynthia Westfall?

(00:29:52):

We’ll be together.

(00:29:53):

We’ve read.

(00:29:54):

What’s standing out?

(00:29:55):

I think if I’m

(00:29:59):

How I process these things is I think about I’m excited to be back together with my

(00:30:06):

friends that I see just every six months,

(00:30:08):

except for you.

(00:30:09):

I see you more regularly, at least digitally.

(00:30:13):

I’m also thinking about what is the structure of the class.

(00:30:17):

So I spend a lot of time reviewing the syllabus in order to be prepared.

(00:30:22):

I’m kind of a nerd like that.

(00:30:24):

And what is the style of the teacher?

(00:30:25):

I’ve...

(00:30:27):

I’ve read some of Dr.

(00:30:28):

Westphal’s books and I’m a little familiar,

(00:30:31):

but I don’t know what her teaching style is going to be like,

(00:30:33):

you know,

(00:30:34):

and I say this because we had we had a class recently with with Al Roxborough keeps

(00:30:39):

coming up.

(00:30:40):

But, you know, I take notes on my laptop and the first day he’s like, put your computers away.

(00:30:45):

We’re just going to talk.

(00:30:46):

You can take notes on.

(00:30:47):

And and that was helpful.

(00:30:49):

but I wasn’t prepared for that that was a little disruptive to me and it was good

(00:30:53):

so I’m always looking for those kind of clues and I’m of course making sure I’ve

(00:30:57):

done all the pre-work because I’m a nerd like that so I think but more specifically

(00:31:04):

to the content of the class I have really been enjoying the intersection of all of

(00:31:12):

this reading and just how it’s been challenging and

(00:31:18):

in certain ways of how do you put it together.

(00:31:22):

And then I’ve also been relieved from that challenge by saying,

(00:31:26):

I don’t need to put this together because this isn’t what I’m teaching right now.

(00:31:29):

I’m not teaching this.

(00:31:31):

I need to experience this.

(00:31:33):

And so the last...

(00:31:35):

I want to reread Bo Lim’s book because I read it first and now I want to go back to

(00:31:40):

it and have a deeper understanding of just...

(00:31:44):

All the work that he’s doing,

(00:31:45):

because it seemed like there was so much going on in that little tiny book.

(00:31:49):

And so I’m thinking about how this is all going to come together.

(00:31:52):

And then the last thing that I’m thinking about is regarding the class is like,

(00:31:57):

how are my cohort members,

(00:32:00):

fellow cohort members processing this?

(00:32:02):

How are they going to respond?

(00:32:03):

Are there going to be some big revelations or pushbacks or something?

(00:32:08):

I don’t know.

(00:32:08):

I’m always kind of prepared for that as well.

(00:32:10):

Yeah.

(00:32:11):

And then finally which isn’t related to the class is that we all stay most of a

(00:32:15):

group of us stay in an Airbnb together and so there’s always like this social

(00:32:18):

component that’s really fun so I’m always thinking about what are the questions

(00:32:23):

that I want to ask the other people so maybe I throw that back at you how are you

(00:32:27):

preparing for this what are you thinking

(00:32:29):

Yeah, you mentioned the note-taking.

(00:32:31):

I am working on completely changing up the way I take notes because I’ve just not

(00:32:35):

been happy with it.

(00:32:36):

So I bought a notebook and have been kind of making outlines of the reading,

(00:32:42):

kind of what are the main points,

(00:32:43):

and then here’s some supporting quotes because I fly in,

(00:32:46):

so it’s really hard to take books with me to class.

(00:32:49):

And that way...

(00:32:52):

I’m not as distracted by tech in class.

(00:32:54):

I may still have my iPad or computer to look something up if I need to,

(00:32:57):

but I’m moving to a much more analog way of taking notes,

(00:33:04):

but also trying to be more systematic about it.

(00:33:07):

I have finished the reading.

(00:33:10):

There’s some writing pieces we’ve got to put together that I have not done that I

(00:33:14):

will do that’s coming.

(00:33:16):

So we’ve got to think about 12 pages of writing before the class.

(00:33:19):

It’s just pre-work.

(00:33:21):

And so that’ll happen for me, I think, the next couple of weeks.

(00:33:24):

But yeah, it’s a social aspect.

(00:33:27):

I’m excited to see everyone.

(00:33:28):

Alan Roxborough’s class, I think, did a number of on all of us in the best possible way.

(00:33:35):

And I’m kind of curious to see how everyone’s doing six months later in the wake of that.

(00:33:41):

And just catch up because I think that class just

(00:33:45):

Yeah, there is kind of like this dual layer of things that are happening.

(00:33:48):

We’re learning, we’re growing.

(00:33:50):

And within our context, we’re probably thinking about how to integrate some of our learnings.

(00:33:54):

And then also we’re growing.

(00:34:11):

As a cohort closer together each time going through these shared experiences.

(00:34:16):

And it feels like it becomes weightier each time.

(00:34:21):

And I don’t mean that as a burden.

(00:34:22):

I just mean like we’re moving forward.

(00:34:25):

For Context for Context for Context for Context

(00:34:40):

I’m really challenged by just summarizing texts.

(00:34:45):

I can talk about what is important,

(00:34:48):

and it’s part of this almost fear of I’m not going to get the author’s original

(00:34:54):

intent right.

(00:34:55):

I’m going to

(00:34:56):

put something on there.

(00:34:57):

And so I’m really wrestling with that.

(00:34:59):

It’s almost like there’s some contextual theological interpretation going on.

(00:35:02):

Exactly.

(00:35:03):

I’m broken.

(00:35:04):

I’m broken because of this.

(00:35:06):

So like summarizing an argument, I love it when an author says the point of this book or in this

(00:35:11):

It’s not a major issue,

(00:35:18):

but when you have to write three book reviews and they’re short,

(00:35:21):

you want to get the main points right.

(00:35:24):

Yeah, you do.

(00:35:25):

There’s no room for fluff.

(00:35:28):

Well, thanks for listening, everyone.

(00:35:30):

We’re going to have Alan Roxborough on our next episode,

(00:35:33):

which I am both so excited and so worried about now.

(00:35:39):

It’s going to be great We have no idea what’s going to happen, right?

(00:35:44):

He can take over the whole thing You know,

(00:35:46):

this is about God’s agency And so Well,

(00:35:54):

thanks for listening everyone And I think kind of on the tail end of our core

(00:35:57):

meeting We’ll have some other thoughts to debrief But we’re so,

(00:36:01):

you know,

(00:36:01):

thankful for this program And everything it’s doing in our lives and our ministries

(00:36:04):

And I know that’s been the case for so many alumni as well

(00:36:08):

So thanks for joining us See ya

For Context: Dr. Michael Moore

Episode # 06

🎙️ Episode Overview

This episode of For Context features a conversation with Dr. Mike Moore, the Dean of Northern Seminary and a graduate of the very first cohort of the Contextual Theology program. Hosts Gino and Luke dive into the history of the program, the shift from "Missional Leadership" to "Contextual Theology," and how academic rigor meets the grit of real-world ministry.

Episode Highlights

* The “OG” Cohort: Mike shares what it was like being the final student added to the very first missional leadership cohort—a time he jokingly refers to as the “Middle Ages” of the program.

* The Van Gelder Framework: A deep dive into the influential teaching of Craig Van Gelder and the foundational concept: Who God is defines what the church is, which defines what the church does, which defines how the church organizes.

* Contextualization vs. Relevance: A critical discussion on why “relevance” (pop culture references) is not the same as true “contextualization” (being deeply rooted in a specific time, place, and people).

* Academic Rigor in DMin Programs: Mike pushes back against the idea of “degree mills,” explaining why the DMin at Northern requires more “substance and grit” than a traditional PhD might.

Key Resources Mentioned

Books

* The Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson – A “life-changing” book for Mike that reframes Jesus as serving the Father on behalf of the world.

* Missional Map-Making by Alan Roxburgh.

* The End of Evangelicalism? and The Great Giveaway by David Fitch.

* Works by Stephen Bevins and Schreiter regarding the embodiment of the Gospel across time and space.

Articles & Thinkers

* Renita Weems’ Substack: Discussing the critique of Doctorate of Ministry degrees as “degree mills.”

* Jonathan Tran: Specifically, his reflections (riffing off Luke Bretherton) regarding post-evangelicalism and church expectations.

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Additional Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

🤝 Join the For Context Community

If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news.

* Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com

Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

(00:00:11):

Welcome back to For Context.

(00:00:12):

I’m excited for you to hear this episode with Mike Moore.

(00:00:15):

I’m Gino and Luke is here.

(00:00:31):

He’s in the background.

(00:00:32):

He’s giving us a thumbs up.

(00:00:34):

I hope that you will enjoy this episode as we talk to Mike,

(00:00:37):

who is not only a graduate of the Contextual Theology Program,

(00:00:41):

but he currently serves as the Dean of Northern Seminary.

(00:00:45):

Had some great insights on the OG cohort and things that are happening now and

(00:00:50):

maybe some of the history.

(00:00:52):

So listen in and enjoy this episode with us.

(00:00:57):

Well,

(00:00:57):

today on For Context,

(00:00:59):

we have Dr.

(00:01:00):

Mike Moore,

(00:01:01):

who is an alum of the program,

(00:01:03):

but he’s also Dean of Northern Seminary,

(00:01:05):

a proud Chicagoan,

(00:01:07):

a connoisseur of yogurt,

(00:01:11):

and the host of another podcast that’s loosely connected to this program as well.

(00:01:16):

Probably more tightly connected to this program than ours, actually.

(00:01:20):

But we’re so glad to have you.

(00:01:22):

Gino’s here with us as well.

(00:01:25):

But welcome, Mike.

(00:01:27):

It’s good to be here I think about two weeks ago I ate yogurt with both of you guys

(00:01:33):

That’s probably true,

(00:01:34):

I think so And Fitch too,

(00:01:36):

and Fitch That’s right This is just a continuation It was interesting to watch

(00:01:42):

Fitch eat the yogurt And he had opinions about it Yeah,

(00:01:47):

he was trying to use chopsticks I’ve never seen somebody use chopsticks in yogurt

(00:01:50):

before It was bizarre

(00:01:56):

Speaking of Fitch,

(00:01:57):

which we’re not going to do too much,

(00:01:58):

but Mike spends here’s one part of his intro.

(00:02:01):

Mike has spent more time working closely with Fitch than most human beings.

(00:02:06):

So if we were Catholic, Mike would be a saint probably pretty soon.

(00:02:12):

That’s good.

(00:02:13):

I have spent a lot of time with him.

(00:02:15):

You know, oddly, I feel more relaxed doing this podcast than my own.

(00:02:21):

With him,

(00:02:22):

and we were joking about it earlier,

(00:02:25):

I do tell people a lot of times I go into the podcast and I have no idea what we’re

(00:02:30):

talking about.

(00:02:32):

And then halfway through it, I still don’t have an idea what we’re talking about.

(00:02:37):

But one of the advantages of now having more guests is that I can get a book and

(00:02:43):

that can kind of steady me a little bit.

(00:02:45):

There you go.

(00:02:45):

That’s helpful.

(00:02:47):

But I’m happy to be here.

(00:02:48):

This is quite the remarkable startup between the two of you guys.

(00:02:52):

It’s fun.

(00:02:53):

It’s been fun.

(00:02:54):

We’ve had a good time.

(00:02:56):

So am I correct in understanding that you are part of the very first cohort of this

(00:03:01):

program ever?

(00:03:02):

yeah yeah so the og missional leadership cohort right wow you guys did your

(00:03:11):

homework well yeah we did we had a second round cohort person on here as well so

(00:03:17):

we’ve learned all the things so what was it like just being a part of the first

(00:03:21):

cohort in this program it was like the middle ages of the cohort it

(00:03:29):

Things were dark and we didn’t know where we were going and there was little light.

(00:03:34):

Okay, so you’re jogging my memory.

(00:03:38):

I’m grateful for this.

(00:03:41):

When I joined the program as missional leadership and then about halfway through,

(00:03:44):

they changed it to contextual theology because even at that point,

(00:03:48):

missional was becoming overused.

(00:03:51):

I’ll admit, I had no interest in doing a doctoral program.

(00:03:55):

So one of the things was

(00:03:59):

I started to do some work for Northern,

(00:04:01):

helping with their community development program here in the west side of Chicago.

(00:04:06):

And one of the exchanges was if I worked for them,

(00:04:09):

then they would give me some tuition reimbursement.

(00:04:12):

And I was like, well, Fitch started up a doctoral program.

(00:04:15):

They were already one class in.

(00:04:17):

So I ended up getting added later into the program.

(00:04:20):

I was the last person added to the cohort.

(00:04:24):

so it’s not that I wasn’t intentional or thoughtful about doing the program it was

(00:04:29):

more like I don’t know I got free tuition I might as well get another degree so I

(00:04:36):

definitely backed into it probably with less seriousness than I should have but I

(00:04:45):

got on the bus and it was moving and here we are all these years later so yeah

(00:04:52):

What was the first class?

(00:04:55):

Do you remember?

(00:04:55):

Because you said you missed one.

(00:04:57):

Yeah.

(00:04:58):

Okay.

(00:04:59):

Len Harlsman?

(00:05:01):

I couldn’t spell that for you because it has a lot of consonants and two vowels.

(00:05:06):

It’s one of those names.

(00:05:08):

Do you guys know Len?

(00:05:09):

I think he’s up in Ontario.

(00:05:11):

I don’t know Len.

(00:05:13):

He has a class more on neighborhood missional engagement I’m just going to make

(00:05:20):

myself sound like the worst student And then people are going to be like,

(00:05:24):

this guy’s the dean of his summer He’s a great dean He’s a fantastic dean I’ll

(00:05:30):

admit this I completely phoned in that paper It was garbage I was like,

(00:05:36):

okay,

(00:05:36):

I’ve got to write a paper And I got the kind of grade that you would get if you

(00:05:40):

phoned in a paper in a doctoral program

(00:05:44):

And offhand, we were out with some people in the cohort and Fitch was with us.

(00:05:49):

We were grabbing drinks, you know, coffee, of course.

(00:05:53):

It was late at night.

(00:05:54):

Sure, sure, sure.

(00:05:57):

And I mentioned offhand the grade I got and Fitch kind of stopped and he’s like, wait, what?

(00:06:02):

He’s like, no, you can’t get a grade like that in this doctoral program.

(00:06:08):

So I had to up my game over the next five seminars.

(00:06:13):

Rightfully so.

(00:06:14):

I got put in place.

(00:06:17):

But yeah, the first class was with Len.

(00:06:18):

And then Jeff Holesklaw and Fitch taught quite a bit in the program.

(00:06:24):

And then we had a few other adjuncts kind of pop in.

(00:06:26):

Okay.

(00:06:27):

Okay.

(00:06:27):

Yeah, it was good.

(00:06:29):

Was there a class that was kind of like a turning point for you?

(00:06:32):

I mean,

(00:06:33):

not just like grade wise,

(00:06:34):

but like as far as interest,

(00:06:36):

because you,

(00:06:37):

I mean,

(00:06:38):

I know and get to spend time talking with you about these subjects from contextual

(00:06:43):

theology.

(00:06:44):

I know it’s not your primary work as a dean, but I know it informs what you do.

(00:06:48):

And so you’re no slouch.

(00:06:51):

I just want to say,

(00:06:53):

while you might be telling about how you started,

(00:06:55):

obviously you came out with a high degree of competency and fluency in these

(00:07:01):

subjects.

(00:07:02):

So what gives?

(00:07:06):

I would say a couple of things kind of clicked.

(00:07:11):

Are you guys familiar with Craig Van Gelder?

(00:07:15):

yes I don’t think Craig’s teaching as much anymore he’s certainly more reformed

(00:07:19):

than I am but he taught a class on kind of systems and structures of the church and

(00:07:29):

how you go about bringing about change and innovation it’s a little bit about what

(00:07:36):

Al does but Craig is just more of a systems guy

(00:07:42):

And I don’t think I’ve ever had a class where the professor taught the material so well.

(00:07:49):

I’ve had classes I liked way more.

(00:07:52):

Certainly material I enjoyed more.

(00:07:55):

I would even say professors who in their field were maybe a little more brilliant.

(00:07:58):

But watching Craig teach the class, it was very clear that he had beyond mastery of the content.

(00:08:05):

He’d been doing it for decades.

(00:08:06):

And it felt like something was just leading you through

(00:08:10):

the course content so smoothly and it’s about halfway through the class I was like

(00:08:14):

oh this guy is phenomenal at being a teacher and just being an instructor of the

(00:08:20):

content and he had a few concepts I think that I’ve come back to I’ve come back to

(00:08:25):

this over and over again actually I was in a cabinet meeting we did a cabinet

(00:08:29):

retreat last week and I brought this up in cabinet I should probably be footnoting

(00:08:34):

Craig for generations but

(00:08:39):

He has this concept that’s very simple What the church is defines what the church

(00:08:45):

does defines how the church organizes and I would always back it up one more and

(00:08:51):

say who God is so who God is is how we know what the church is that shapes what we

(00:08:56):

do and how we organize what we do and we talk a lot about that at Northern is like

(00:09:01):

you know coming back to Jesus that gives us our shape of our unique identity what

(00:09:06):

we do for the church and then how we organize what we do

(00:09:10):

For whatever reason, that just clicked in my brain.

(00:09:14):

And I hope nobody ever punches holes in it because my world will crumble.

(00:09:18):

I need that to be true.

(00:09:22):

Foundationally, that has to be absolutely true.

(00:09:27):

Oh, that’s good.

(00:09:30):

That class was so incredible for me.

(00:09:33):

But I add this too.

(00:09:35):

I mean, we can talk about the dissertation stuff maybe later.

(00:09:39):

The course has changed so much It was mostly We were doing a lot of the contextual

(00:09:45):

theology work From the Catholics,

(00:09:48):

from Bevins and Schreiter The churches,

(00:09:53):

the embodiment of the gospel Across different time and space And how do these

(00:09:58):

cultures and context match up with each other And what does it look like to be

(00:10:01):

faithful In a particular time with a particular people

(00:10:06):

But we weren’t doing as much culture studies stuff.

(00:10:09):

Like the culture studies stuff that you all are doing,

(00:10:14):

I am very envious of because we weren’t doing culture studies about race,

(00:10:20):

power,

(00:10:21):

gender,

(00:10:21):

sexuality.

(00:10:23):

Right.

(00:10:23):

Whereas I think like your first class was probably all about that.

(00:10:27):

Not all about that, but I’m guessing, you know, Fishgate.

(00:10:29):

We touched on it.

(00:10:30):

Like, did you get a grid?

(00:10:31):

You probably got a grid at some point.

(00:10:32):

Oh, we got the grid, you know, the self and all of that.

(00:10:35):

Great grid.

(00:10:35):

Definitely.

(00:10:36):

Love a good grid.

(00:10:39):

It also depends on which classes he’s teaching in the master’s program that will be

(00:10:44):

emphasized,

(00:10:45):

right?

(00:10:45):

I’ve learned that too.

(00:10:47):

I don’t mean that as a critique,

(00:10:48):

it’s just an observation of,

(00:10:49):

say,

(00:10:50):

if he’s teaching this sexuality class,

(00:10:53):

we’re going to have the examples be around that,

(00:10:55):

but if he’s teaching church and culture,

(00:10:58):

he’s going to talk about how terrible the church in America is,

(00:11:03):

to use his examples.

(00:11:05):

And those are good.

(00:11:06):

That’s mostly what the program was about.

(00:11:08):

Just how terrible the church in America is?

(00:11:12):

Well, he did write those books, right?

(00:11:15):

The End of Evangelicalism and yeah, all this, yes.

(00:11:19):

The Great Giveaway.

(00:11:22):

Yeah, that’s a good way to describe it.

(00:11:23):

I mean,

(00:11:24):

Fitch was writing,

(00:11:25):

it was after The Great Giveaway and as he was writing The End of Evangelicalism.

(00:11:28):

So most of his grids, I guess when we say grids, we’re talking about the ways that

(00:11:34):

Fitch Distills, different cultural movements.

(00:11:37):

They were mostly around ecclesiology.

(00:11:39):

They really weren’t about the self in power.

(00:11:42):

Yes.

(00:11:43):

So I’ve been a little envious watching you all and watching the cohorts from the

(00:11:47):

last 10 years get to do that.

(00:11:51):

If I was not on faculty and serving as the dean,

(00:11:54):

I don’t think I would have been aware of how much that’s shifted.

(00:11:57):

In that way, it feels like a completely different program.

(00:12:00):

Mm-hmm.

(00:12:02):

A really different program.

(00:12:03):

I think Fitch just kind of added that to his ensemble the last 10 years,

(00:12:07):

and that’s really been such a benefit for the work you guys are doing.

(00:12:12):

So yeah,

(00:12:13):

if I could go back,

(00:12:14):

like I would love to jump into some of the classes you guys have as a former grad

(00:12:18):

who could audit,

(00:12:19):

but it’s a little weird to be auditing a class of a faculty member who I will be

(00:12:24):

evaluating.

(00:12:27):

There’s a power dynamic there.

(00:12:29):

Yes, there is a power dynamic.

(00:12:31):

Go ahead, teach whatever you want.

(00:12:33):

By the way... You know, so it’s been a while since you worked through the coursework.

(00:12:42):

Are there... You know, you mentioned Van Gelder.

(00:12:45):

He taught for you, it sounds like.

(00:12:47):

Are there books or things that are kind of standing out to you?

(00:12:49):

Because I imagine you started the program in, what, 2012?

(00:12:52):

It would have been 2013?

(00:12:53):

So it’s been a hot minute.

(00:12:56):

Are there...

(00:12:58):

you didn’t know but now you do what are some of the readings or books or things

(00:13:04):

that have just kind of stayed with you beyond that Van Gelder kind of framework for

(00:13:07):

what the church is well certainly Al’s stuff around missional map making was huge

(00:13:17):

you know the books that Al wrote were all instrumental in the program so Craig and

(00:13:24):

Al were

(00:13:26):

Really giving shape to how we think about the church and how we initiate and move

(00:13:31):

through cultural trends Okay,

(00:13:35):

I’m gonna I’m gonna pull out one that I don’t think ever got assigned after my

(00:13:43):

program but this class this book has been life-changing for me Ray Anderson the

(00:13:51):

shape of practical theology

(00:13:54):

which I don’t think most people even know about this book Ray was a professor of

(00:13:59):

theology at Fuller and he’s a BART scholar and he’s obviously written extensively

(00:14:09):

on practical theology but also kind of like pastoral ministry he does a lot on

(00:14:13):

ethics and

(00:14:15):

And he gave a few ideas in that book that really reframe the way I even just think

(00:14:20):

about doing ministry.

(00:14:22):

As an aside,

(00:14:23):

you know,

(00:14:24):

I teach the doctoral thesis class for all the doctoral students except for this

(00:14:29):

program.

(00:14:32):

You know, okay.

(00:14:33):

That’s funny.

(00:14:34):

That’s funny.

(00:14:35):

Mitch wants to do his thing.

(00:14:36):

I respect it.

(00:14:38):

And I have them read Ray Anderson.

(00:14:40):

I just have them read a couple of chapters.

(00:14:43):

I’ll give you one thing.

(00:14:45):

I think it’s from the second chapter that was actually really helpful for my own

(00:14:49):

ministry he talks about how often in the church we discuss how Jesus came to serve

(00:15:01):

the world on behalf of the Father and that’s something that I heard quite a bit

(00:15:06):

especially around like Maundy Thursday which is which is next week um

(00:15:12):

You know, you do some foot washing and like, hey, we’re going to serve like Jesus.

(00:15:15):

We’re going to serve each other as Jesus would serve it.

(00:15:18):

But he turns that and he says,

(00:15:20):

it’s not that Jesus came to serve the world on behalf of the Father.

(00:15:22):

It’s that Jesus came to serve the Father on behalf of the world.

(00:15:27):

By that, Jesus is incarnated, proclaiming, announcing the kingdom.

(00:15:34):

That’s a very Bardian take.

(00:15:36):

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it’s Bart through and through.

(00:15:39):

It’s like if Bart had like Twitter, and he’s like, how do I say this in like 150 characters?

(00:15:45):

How do I do this?

(00:15:47):

So rather than Jesus,

(00:15:48):

you know,

(00:15:49):

scrambling around trying to serve every single person,

(00:15:52):

meet their whims,

(00:15:53):

meet their demands,

(00:15:54):

and you want to sit on my left,

(00:15:55):

you want to sit on my right,

(00:15:56):

Jesus came and said,

(00:15:57):

this is what it looks like to live

(00:16:00):

in unity with the Father.

(00:16:01):

This is what it looks like to live under the power of the Spirit.

(00:16:03):

This is what the kingdom looks like.

(00:16:05):

I’m here serving the Father, bearing witness to what Adam was not able to do.

(00:16:10):

I am the new Adam.

(00:16:12):

This is what the kingdom looks like.

(00:16:15):

That just pops something off for me.

(00:16:18):

And I have preached that so many times, and I have footnoted him probably 80% of the time.

(00:16:25):

Sometimes I forget.

(00:16:26):

I actually did it somewhere at an academic...

(00:16:30):

like in an academic environment and I even had it written down like footnote him I

(00:16:33):

forgot to footnote him and I had some people coming to me afterwards like that is

(00:16:37):

so brilliant and I immediately was like well you’re going to go home and google

(00:16:41):

this and you’re going to find out it’s not from me it’s not me so you need to know

(00:16:46):

this is Ray Anderson Fuller Seminary you know rest in peace that’s great that’s

(00:16:52):

good that book Shape of Practical Theology by Ray Anderson highly recommend it so

(00:16:59):

good

(00:17:00):

How do you feel like the culture of the program has changed from the first cohort to now?

(00:17:07):

Oh, I mean, I think you all are a lot smarter than you were.

(00:17:13):

I’m not dunking on my classmates.

(00:17:17):

I just think that there’s a level of seriousness with which people approach it.

(00:17:23):

and part of that is I think doctorate of ministry degrees maybe 15 years ago were

(00:17:29):

like hey just go do it it’s the next thing if you’re bored it’d be a good step your

(00:17:36):

church has made pain for it it’s kind of a fun activity I think now at Northern

(00:17:41):

there’s like a there’s like an academic rigor with it that did not exist in the

(00:17:47):

past to the point where um

(00:17:53):

I was teaching a class on Friday for the doctoral students.

(00:17:58):

And a few of them were discussing how they thought about doing different degrees

(00:18:03):

and how they landed at Northern.

(00:18:05):

What I’ve begun to say is,

(00:18:07):

look,

(00:18:09):

if you can’t do a demon at Northern,

(00:18:11):

just go ahead and get your PhD.

(00:18:16):

If you can’t do it, that’s fine.

(00:18:17):

It’s not for everybody.

(00:18:18):

But you can go get your PhD somewhere where you will...

(00:18:22):

Okay, this is dismissive.

(00:18:23):

This is derisive.

(00:18:24):

Lord, forgive me.

(00:18:25):

But where you might squirrel away in your narrow band of theological research,

(00:18:34):

where you can talk to other academics,

(00:18:36):

but it might not actually meet...

(00:18:38):

The substance and the grit of the real world, which is where it gets really troubling.

(00:18:42):

Like your theology becomes so troubled when you start talking to people that don’t

(00:18:46):

necessarily agree with you or who embody their faith in ways that confound your

(00:18:50):

theological expectations.

(00:18:52):

So if you can’t do a demon at Northern, everybody, go ahead.

(00:18:56):

Just go get a PhD.

(00:18:57):

Go get a PhD, that’s fine.

(00:18:58):

Go get that PhD.

(00:18:59):

Yeah.

(00:19:00):

That’s really interesting to me.

(00:19:02):

I mean,

(00:19:03):

I hear what you’re saying,

(00:19:05):

and there’s something really interesting in that if you take the trajectory of the

(00:19:09):

program from what you said it started as,

(00:19:12):

like,

(00:19:12):

hey,

(00:19:13):

these are a lot of people probably just doing ministry,

(00:19:15):

and this is the next thing you do.

(00:19:18):

And now, I mean, we still have people that are involved in ministry coming in.

(00:19:23):

They’re not necessarily people that are, they’re not on the academic track.

(00:19:28):

It’s not a lot of professors coming in.

(00:19:30):

And so I wonder what that says about this program

(00:19:33):

There’s something very unique and special about this program, I believe.

(00:19:35):

But I wonder if that kind of starts to unearth what that might be,

(00:19:38):

what that special thing might be.

(00:19:39):

Yeah, that’s really good.

(00:19:40):

There’s an article on Substack a couple months ago that

(00:20:03):

I guess it went a little viral in some seminary circles.

(00:20:08):

I’m looking down because I’m trying to pull it up.

(00:20:12):

I think it was from Dr. Weems.

(00:20:19):

Oh, yeah.

(00:20:20):

Oh, look at that.

(00:20:20):

First try.

(00:20:21):

Renita Weems.

(00:20:22):

Renita Weems, yeah.

(00:20:24):

Is she at Emory?

(00:20:26):

That sounds right.

(00:20:28):

I think I read this article.

(00:20:29):

I think I did.

(00:20:30):

Yeah,

(00:20:30):

it’s about like doctorate of ministry degrees being degree mills,

(00:20:35):

which,

(00:20:36):

you know,

(00:20:37):

if you’re pulling back the hood a little bit for people that want to know,

(00:20:41):

doctorate of ministry degrees are desirable from an operational side of an

(00:20:47):

institution because

(00:20:50):

It’s a lower credit load Like you’re not doing what an MA or an MDiv would do So

(00:20:55):

it’s a lower credit load You move through the program relatively quickly And with a

(00:20:59):

lot of predictability So DMINs are good for seminaries And what can happen is You

(00:21:08):

can scale them very quickly And you can get people in Who maybe are 10,

(00:21:14):

20 years after their MDiv And just want to get

(00:21:17):

want to get some more education so she was critiquing the degree mill approach

(00:21:21):

which I think is really necessary because there are a lot of seminaries that just

(00:21:25):

try to pump them out we have intentionally pushed back against that actually we had

(00:21:29):

a faculty retreat last year and we talked a lot about pushing back on that but I

(00:21:33):

think to your point Gino what you’re touching on is that there are so many cultural

(00:21:40):

shifts and

(00:21:43):

in the church world and in theological education that when students come to

(00:21:47):

Northern,

(00:21:49):

they’re asking the same,

(00:21:50):

but they’re also asking really different questions than they were asking when they

(00:21:52):

first started ministry.

(00:21:54):

And it does require a leveling up of the way you think about doing ministry theologically.

(00:22:03):

I have thought about this for myself now.

(00:22:07):

I mean, there’s so many things

(00:22:10):

that I wish I had more time to focus on when it comes to my academic work.

(00:22:18):

Because when I did my MDiv,

(00:22:21):

when I graduated in 2008,

(00:22:22):

and then I graduated from this program in,

(00:22:24):

I don’t know,

(00:22:25):

almost over 10 years ago,

(00:22:27):

it just changed so much.

(00:22:29):

And so I even feel like I’m a little behind on some things.

(00:22:34):

So I imagine a lot of people who are in my place who, you know, I’m in my 40s.

(00:22:41):

Well, what’s it going to be like 10 years from now?

(00:22:43):

What’s it going to be 20 years from now?

(00:22:44):

What’s it going to be like 30 years from now?

(00:22:47):

And we want to continue to have those conversations.

(00:22:49):

And the one thing the church isn’t great at and seminary is not great at is we

(00:22:52):

don’t know how to shape those conversations outside of a degree program always.

(00:22:58):

Yeah.

(00:22:59):

Yeah.

(00:23:00):

That’s a growing edge for us to figure out.

(00:23:04):

I think that contextual theology as an idea,

(00:23:10):

as a concept,

(00:23:11):

as a way of seeing and thinking about things can be taught in one regard,

(00:23:18):

but then you’re talking about the content,

(00:23:20):

like what do we need to know?

(00:23:22):

To form a contextual theology.

(00:23:24):

So for me in Philadelphia,

(00:23:27):

I don’t know that if I hadn’t gone through the MA program and now in this,

(00:23:31):

I don’t know that I would even understand or have a frame to understand.

(00:23:37):

all the complexities of the cultures around me.

(00:23:40):

And I haven’t even talked about leaving my house yet, by the way.

(00:23:43):

I’m just talking about me as a parent, as a husband.

(00:23:47):

But even then when we step outside as a neighbor and all of that, it is complex.

(00:23:52):

And so if I went through a program that was just saying,

(00:23:55):

we’re going to teach you contextual theology and I was just going to start giving

(00:23:59):

value that there are differences,

(00:24:01):

that still doesn’t go far enough.

(00:24:04):

I need to talk about what those things really are and that’s what I feel like you

(00:24:08):

kind of mentioned that of saying like things are changing things have if not to say

(00:24:12):

you are behind the times that’s not what I’m trying to say I’m saying there is

(00:24:17):

actual content within the contextual theology that needs to be interrogated and I

(00:24:23):

think that’s one of the unique things about this program is that we actually do

(00:24:26):

that absolutely yeah that’s a good way to put it

(00:24:29):

Yeah,

(00:24:30):

so kind of as you think about the future,

(00:24:32):

not necessarily for the institution,

(00:24:34):

but just for contextual theology as a discipline,

(00:24:39):

how do you see contextual theology maybe moving forward?

(00:24:43):

Like, why does it remain essential?

(00:24:45):

I mean,

(00:24:46):

you guys aren’t going to toot your horns,

(00:24:47):

but both of you were presenting papers last week.

(00:25:09):

at the Ethnography and Ecclesiology Conference for why it matters.

(00:25:13):

So in some regards, I think you guys can make a better argument.

(00:25:16):

But this is maybe not the most helpful move.

(00:25:23):

I can imagine theologians and academics in different disciplines rolling their eyes

(00:25:27):

at what I’m going to say.

(00:25:28):

But here we are.

(00:25:34):

Everybody’s doing contextual theology.

(00:25:37):

This is a little bit of a universalizing move So I recognize that I might be

(00:25:40):

betraying my own convictions and my discipline But everybody’s doing contextual

(00:25:47):

theology The question is just whether or not you know it And whether or not you’re

(00:25:52):

doing it well So if there is a theological move where people are continuing to

(00:25:59):

abstract

(00:26:03):

I think the church is really going to be to be hurting and to be suffering what I

(00:26:10):

really want pastors and practitioners to think about is what is what’s unique about

(00:26:17):

my call and my place and how am I supposed to be faithful in that context I always

(00:26:23):

tell students I’m like you’re the expert I don’t know I don’t know your church as

(00:26:28):

well as you know it I don’t know your neighborhood your block as well as you know

(00:26:30):

it

(00:26:32):

And I really want the students at Northern to think deeply about those things.

(00:26:40):

I’m making this connection in my mind.

(00:26:41):

I don’t know where it will go.

(00:26:42):

But I visited a friend’s church a couple years ago.

(00:26:47):

And afterwards we went out to eat.

(00:26:50):

And he wasn’t on leadership.

(00:26:53):

He was a member of the church, though.

(00:26:54):

And asked me what I thought.

(00:26:56):

And asked me, like, what did you really think?

(00:26:59):

My takeaway was...

(00:27:01):

Great people I loved being there But I had no idea where your church was I could

(00:27:07):

have been anywhere I could have been in San Jose,

(00:27:10):

California I could have been in Austin I could have been in Minneapolis I could

(00:27:14):

have been in Virginia Beach Because there was nothing about the church About the

(00:27:21):

service Even just the way it was designed Where it was That gave me a sense of

(00:27:27):

place

(00:27:29):

It was really abstracted And even I would say the sermon and the theology of what

(00:27:35):

was preached there was very abstracted It felt like it just kind of dropped in And

(00:27:41):

I think churches that are shaped by abstraction like that

(00:27:47):

Really are missing the opportunity to disciple people and to evangelize people in

(00:27:51):

their context.

(00:27:53):

So I think it’s really important that people are able to,

(00:27:56):

you know,

(00:27:57):

we’ll say exegete your context well faithfully.

(00:28:02):

Can we talk about that some more?

(00:28:03):

Yeah,

(00:28:04):

let’s go Because what I hear in that is that sounds like restaurant franchises

(00:28:12):

where they just simply want people to be familiar with things but it’s not

(00:28:17):

necessarily the height of a cultural experience to have the exact same burger in

(00:28:24):

Minneapolis and Virginia and all of that

(00:28:27):

But at the same time,

(00:28:29):

at the same time,

(00:28:30):

I’m trying to be sympathetic to that church in some ways,

(00:28:33):

saying like,

(00:28:34):

what...

(00:28:35):

What are the boundaries for where you can contextualize within a liturgy?

(00:28:42):

So maybe you could speak more to that.

(00:28:44):

Because you don’t want to just have cultural shout-outs.

(00:28:49):

It’s not like you’re just citing pop culture.

(00:28:52):

That’s not what you’re implying.

(00:28:55):

That’s not what you’re saying.

(00:28:56):

The latest whatever album that came out or what’s happening at the Super Bowl halftime show.

(00:29:02):

You’re not...

(00:29:05):

I think we need to distinguish here there’s a difference between maybe relevance as

(00:29:08):

we would call it in some circles versus contextuality or contextualization.

(00:29:15):

So relevance does not equal contextualization.

(00:29:18):

Right.

(00:29:19):

I think that’s good.

(00:29:20):

And that’s what I hear from you, Mike.

(00:29:22):

I’m wondering if you could help us and the listeners kind of think about what would

(00:29:26):

maybe maybe this is the wrong way to ask it,

(00:29:28):

but what would you have liked to have seen in that context?

(00:29:34):

Yeah, that’s good.

(00:29:35):

Yeah.

(00:29:35):

And I, to your point, I’m pretty cautious about just dunking on churches.

(00:29:42):

Sure.

(00:29:42):

Because I have a lot of people that have done that at churches I’ve led.

(00:29:45):

And we love the church.

(00:29:47):

Yes.

(00:29:47):

And we do love the church.

(00:29:48):

Yeah.

(00:29:49):

I definitely don’t want to be shaped by some kind of angst.

(00:29:54):

Mm-hmm.

(00:29:55):

You know, Jonathan Chan wrote this great article about this.

(00:29:58):

He’s kind of riffing off of Luke Brotherton.

(00:30:00):

And when Jonathan Tran is talking about what I would call post-evangelicals,

(00:30:06):

his question is,

(00:30:07):

well,

(00:30:07):

what did you expect?

(00:30:09):

What did you think the church was?

(00:30:14):

The church is full of people.

(00:30:17):

We definitely don’t get it right.

(00:30:19):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(00:30:20):

So I always want to be cautious with any critiques.

(00:30:26):

I think one of the things I thought of with this church in particular...

(00:30:31):

It was a small church plant that sadly had to close their doors a couple years after COVID.

(00:30:37):

But I thought a lot about the music and the music required a backing track and

(00:30:45):

backing tracks are really great if you want to fill out sound and if you don’t have

(00:30:49):

musicians.

(00:30:52):

Man, I had a church plant.

(00:30:55):

What’s the piano with the mouth?

(00:30:58):

Like two Have you ever seen that instrument?

(00:31:01):

Yes Yeah Like you’re blowing into the piano It’s like I know what it looks like I

(00:31:06):

don’t know what it’s called I don’t know what it’s called Yeah Anyhow I was part of

(00:31:09):

a church And like we led worship with that And with somebody on a djembe Like that

(00:31:14):

was it That’s all we had So I get it Yeah Yeah But what I walked away from With

(00:31:20):

this church was like Oh This church is referencing another church As to what

(00:31:26):

faithfulness looks like

(00:31:28):

It’s almost like they are pointing outside themselves to like,

(00:31:31):

this is what we’ve seen on YouTube or this is the videos of what we think it looks

(00:31:37):

like to faithfully worship in music and song.

(00:31:40):

And I would even say like the sermon to some degree felt like it was shouting over

(00:31:47):

the people in the congregation.

(00:31:49):

I mean,

(00:31:51):

to the point where I thought I’m like,

(00:31:52):

you probably don’t need amplification with this many people.

(00:31:55):

Mm-hmm.

(00:31:55):

Mm-hmm.

(00:31:56):

Mm-hmm.

(00:31:58):

It felt like there was a sense of like,

(00:31:59):

we’re not doing church if we don’t do church the way that we have seen kind of

(00:32:06):

mainstream evangelical Christianity do it.

(00:32:09):

Yes.

(00:32:10):

And one of the things I ran into quite a bit,

(00:32:14):

and this is actually what I wrote my dissertation on the church I had planted,

(00:32:19):

which is a college church.

(00:32:22):

For years, we had people visiting us and asking us how we did what we did.

(00:32:27):

and the implication was how do we replicate this and I gave them some ideas some

(00:32:32):

practices but I also said you’re probably not going to be able to do this and it’s

(00:32:37):

not because we’re so special it’s because this is a very particular embodiment of

(00:32:41):

the church and there are certainly some practices and principles that can be

(00:32:46):

carried on but it’s not going to look like us

(00:32:50):

So I really hope that churches aren’t looking elsewhere for a reference.

(00:32:55):

It’s almost like in junior high,

(00:32:57):

I remember going to the junior high dance,

(00:33:01):

and I was not a good dancer,

(00:33:02):

and I was still not a good dancer.

(00:33:03):

But my big problem was I lacked the confidence to dance.

(00:33:07):

So I remember you’re on the dance floor,

(00:33:10):

and there’s these little circles,

(00:33:11):

and you’re not really dancing.

(00:33:12):

You’re kind of just making fun of each other.

(00:33:14):

But everybody would watch my one friend, Greg, because Greg danced...

(00:33:19):

like nobody was watching and you know so you kind of dance and you’re kind of

(00:33:24):

looking at Greg and you’re like am I doing it right and like everybody’s just like

(00:33:27):

looking around am I doing it right am I doing it right this high level of

(00:33:32):

consciousness if you’re actually being if you’re being evaluated and if you’re

(00:33:38):

doing it correctly yeah so when you’re in a church like that you get the sense that

(00:33:42):

there’s not I guess I

(00:33:47):

a level of satisfaction with how God has called them to embody the gospel yeah I’m

(00:33:54):

building on some theories that are stirring in my mind kind of following our

(00:33:57):

conversation with Johnny which was so good but you know I think you know we talked

(00:34:03):

about how architecture like in the absence of significant architecture like

(00:34:07):

physical buildings stained glass like there’s not much to signify that a modern day

(00:34:12):

church building in American culture is

(00:34:16):

Anything distinct Like a third space in a strip mall Or something like this And so

(00:34:24):

I talked about with Johnny,

(00:34:27):

the words we use in a sermon are theological signifiers to signify tribe,

(00:34:31):

but I think also we’re moving maybe post-word into like,

(00:34:36):

is it the worship music?

(00:34:37):

Is it these expressions?

(00:34:39):

Is it this way that we’re trying to copy each other?

(00:34:42):

And I think some of that’s tied up in we’re still holding to an attractional model of church.

(00:34:46):

And so in order to signify to people that we are a good church,

(00:34:51):

we’re a faithful church,

(00:34:52):

we’re the kind of tribe you’d want to be a part of,

(00:34:54):

there are these signifiers,

(00:34:58):

worship music styles,

(00:35:01):

lighting,

(00:35:02):

all these things that signify like,

(00:35:03):

hey,

(00:35:03):

no,

(00:35:04):

this is,

(00:35:04):

we’re this,

(00:35:06):

we are the cultural expectation,

(00:35:08):

please come in to what this is because you know what it is.

(00:35:12):

But that’s built on a

(00:35:14):

it’s christians from other areas or other churches coming to your church and just

(00:35:17):

continuing to move around yes so the the lack of place and contextualization was

(00:35:25):

not necessarily because of a lack of saying things that would make them distinctly

(00:35:32):

that place but that they were trying to be somewhere they weren’t in the sense of

(00:35:37):

like yeah yeah

(00:35:39):

Well it’s comforting you know I think about Fitch he’s gonna go to McDonald’s

(00:35:43):

everywhere he goes because he doesn’t have to think about the coffee menu

(00:35:48):

And that’s why McDonald’s works the way it works.

(00:35:52):

I mean, people have written, I think, about the McDonaldization of church as an easy target.

(00:35:56):

But there is a comfort for people knowing,

(00:35:58):

like,

(00:35:58):

I walk into a space and I know what the space is because it’s just like this space

(00:36:03):

in California or South Carolina or wherever it may be.

(00:36:08):

But it just happens to be in this, you know, rented space in a strip mall in Chicago or...

(00:36:14):

Yeah,

(00:36:15):

I think that’s really helpful,

(00:36:18):

Mike,

(00:36:18):

because with people that might be listening,

(00:36:21):

hearing that one of the ways to contextualize is to actually be where you really

(00:36:26):

are and don’t necessarily attempt.

(00:36:29):

Well,

(00:36:30):

and contextually,

(00:36:31):

the appeal is,

(00:36:31):

are you trying to appeal to some sort of internet-style Christian culture?

(00:36:55):

Or are you trying to appeal to the people who actually live in your area?

(00:36:59):

And appeal is a strange word here,

(00:37:01):

but are you trying to be contextual to your local geography and culture?

(00:37:04):

Are you trying to be relevant to some sort of perceived internet Christian culture?

(00:37:11):

Yeah.

(00:37:12):

Yeah.

(00:37:13):

I mean, we could riff on Christian music and worship.

(00:37:16):

I won’t go down that rabbit hole.

(00:37:17):

I mean, I could just go for a long time on that.

(00:37:24):

I was thinking about it this is this is related that in the last my last semester

(00:37:29):

at Northern in the master’s program I redid this office in my basement and I got

(00:37:34):

this paneling that looks like the paneling that almost every YouTube

(00:37:38):

influencer uses and it was because it was on sale and I was getting texts from

(00:37:43):

people in the zoom class like did you do that for your sermon I’ve actually

(00:37:47):

reconfigured my office because of what that paneling was signifying to people that

(00:37:53):

I was aiming to do so I’m when you when you open it up to those kind of cultural

(00:37:59):

references it’s really important to me that I’m not trying to put off this image of

(00:38:05):

what that I’m not that I am not

(00:38:09):

Wow, I want to see what your office view used to look like now.

(00:38:13):

I’ll send you the YouTube videos from some of those last classes.

(00:38:17):

Dolan Empoliu, he’s got really colorful strip lights that he just does not have on right now.

(00:38:22):

Oh yeah, that’s true.

(00:38:23):

From a church that closed, I have colored strip lights in my office.

(00:38:27):

I can turn it to Good Friday red really quick, man.

(00:38:31):

Okay.

(00:38:32):

Not yet.

(00:38:34):

Not yet.

(00:38:34):

Too soon.

(00:38:35):

Too soon.

(00:38:36):

Mike, you mentioned your thesis.

(00:38:38):

Can we talk a little bit about that?

(00:38:39):

Spend a little bit of time?

(00:38:40):

What was it on?

(00:38:41):

And I mean, you said it was on the church.

(00:38:44):

You planned it at the college.

(00:38:46):

So what was that kind of the focus?

(00:38:48):

Your research question?

(00:38:49):

I’m actually kind of embarrassed for both of you that you haven’t read it yet.

(00:38:53):

It’s kind of shocking.

(00:38:56):

Send it my way You didn’t stumble upon it at some point in all your doctoral research?

(00:39:05):

Okay,

(00:39:05):

yeah,

(00:39:05):

so I got kind of fixated on something when I was doing the doctoral program and at

(00:39:12):

the same time I was planting a church and actually I was part of planting two

(00:39:15):

churches but the one church in particular is a university church I know Gino,

(00:39:22):

you know the pastors that are there now so

(00:39:25):

Long story short I went to Loyola University to do some campus ministry and got

(00:39:30):

really integrated with the with the university system became like a contracted like

(00:39:38):

pastor so functionally the church looks like an intervarsity Christian fellowship

(00:39:43):

but but it is a church of all college students and the students that were there

(00:39:52):

10 years ago are now the pastors and now they’re raising up the next generation

(00:39:56):

which is crazy we just celebrated 16 years a couple weeks ago and I went there and

(00:40:02):

I preached and I’m telling you my jokes do not land like they used to

(00:40:06):

It was the first time where I felt like I was dying on the vine.

(00:40:13):

I was doing an intro and I was like, oh my gosh, this is really becoming kind of awkward.

(00:40:17):

And I was eventually able to save it.

(00:40:18):

I was able to save it.

(00:40:19):

That’s good.

(00:40:22):

But I really became convicted that it wasn’t church indeed.

(00:40:27):

And I noticed how whenever we talk about college ministry,

(00:40:32):

men’s ministry,

(00:40:33):

women’s ministry,

(00:40:34):

we’re talking about the church.

(00:40:36):

But when we talk about campus ministry, we’re talking about the parachurch.

(00:40:43):

And so part of my critique was about the parachurch and how I think that’s a really

(00:40:47):

unhelpful distinction.

(00:40:49):

And the way this came up was a student came to faith in our ministry.

(00:40:54):

He asked me, how do you get baptized?

(00:40:56):

And I said, well, church baptizes you.

(00:40:58):

And he’s like, well, what church should I go to?

(00:41:01):

I can email some of the churches around here to get baptized.

(00:41:04):

And I was like, well,

(00:41:06):

You know, we’re doing Bible study.

(00:41:08):

We’re like doing a small group.

(00:41:09):

We eat together a couple of times throughout the week.

(00:41:12):

We’re fellowshipping.

(00:41:14):

You became a Christian through your lab partner who is part of one of our ministries.

(00:41:20):

I’m like, I think we’re the ones who would baptize you.

(00:41:24):

Like, why would I send this 18 year old down the street to join a church?

(00:41:30):

and be part of a service once a week when there are a hundred college students

(00:41:35):

worshiping on campus every single week.

(00:41:39):

So part of my dissertation is making the argument that it is indeed a church and

(00:41:45):

what is required to be the church.

(00:41:47):

I’ll say as an aside, the people that have the hardest time with this are evangelicals.

(00:41:53):

The people who find it to be the easiest are the Catholics.

(00:41:56):

Yeah, right.

(00:41:58):

Like the Catholic chaplains like

(00:42:02):

I didn’t have to explain it to them.

(00:42:04):

They assumed that’s what it was.

(00:42:06):

They’re like, well, why would any part of a ministry not be part of the church?

(00:42:11):

Why would you break those two things up?

(00:42:15):

They never had to be argued that it was a church.

(00:42:17):

They’re just like, oh yeah, you’re part of a tradition.

(00:42:19):

You do church things.

(00:42:21):

Yeah.

(00:42:23):

The people that we had the hardest time with is the denomination of the Christian

(00:42:25):

Reformed Church,

(00:42:26):

which didn’t have a kind of a polity imagination for that.

(00:42:31):

So I was spinning on that stuff.

(00:42:34):

I guess the last thing I will say is one of the things that really unlocked it for

(00:42:37):

me,

(00:42:38):

which has become a major conversation topic in the last 10 years,

(00:42:42):

is doing work around liberalism.

(00:42:46):

Liberalism being the philosophy of the individuated self,

(00:42:49):

the unencumbered self,

(00:42:50):

the autonomous individual.

(00:42:52):

And I would critique how the powers and systems of higher education were

(00:42:58):

counter-formation to the practices of the church.

(00:43:03):

And how what the university does is it’s not just a marketplace of ideas,

(00:43:08):

but it’s a marketplace of ideas.

(00:43:12):

of students where the university tries to distinguish themselves from other

(00:43:17):

universities in order to bring in some revenue and become a profit institution that

(00:43:24):

then puts students in the position of having to chase after the goals of capitalism

(00:43:30):

rather than the goals of the kingdom.

(00:43:34):

So Howard Watson wrote this book, The State and the University.

(00:43:39):

There’s another book by William Cavanaugh called Conflicting Allegiances,

(00:43:42):

but those books really were the linchpin for...

(00:43:45):

Big William Cavanaugh fans over here.

(00:43:47):

Yeah.

(00:43:47):

William Cavanaugh.

(00:43:48):

Torture in the Eucharist Top 10 books Amazing You told me about that Mike and I

(00:43:55):

read that a few years ago I was going to say Luke He was setting me up for my

(00:44:00):

Hauerwas Like every episode I have to mention Hauerwas Well you mentioned it But

(00:44:05):

William Kavanaugh But you said Kavanaugh too And now Luke’s all excited

(00:44:10):

Oh,

(00:44:10):

I love William Kavanaugh I probably just put everybody asleep No,

(00:44:15):

no,

(00:44:16):

no,

(00:44:16):

no,

(00:44:16):

no We are wide awake We’re wide awake I wanted to Actually,

(00:44:19):

I know we’re kind of pushing near the end of the time But I wanted to I wanted to

(00:44:24):

kind of reflect on that Just from some things that I observed I was a new Christian

(00:44:30):

And connected to a campus ministry That’s not how I came to faith But I had friends

(00:44:35):

that led one I was in a college town

(00:44:38):

And I really couldn’t understand this new thing that I was experiencing,

(00:44:43):

the church,

(00:44:44):

and this thing I was experiencing over here that was a parachurch ministry.

(00:44:49):

So what it felt like to me,

(00:44:52):

my observation was,

(00:44:53):

oh,

(00:44:53):

you guys just don’t like the church and you don’t like the parachurch.

(00:44:57):

Because what you said is really helpful to me.

(00:45:00):

Isn’t that just the church?

(00:45:01):

Yeah.

(00:45:03):

Is it that you’re just doing church light and you don’t want some of the

(00:45:05):

responsibilities or is there something else going on and so it makes perfect sense

(00:45:09):

to me that it would be evangelicals that couldn’t understand this because they’re

(00:45:13):

just trying to get you in on Sunday and that’s not all evangelicals but that’s how

(00:45:18):

they determine church whereas the Catholic way of like

(00:45:23):

life together is something a little bit different than just a Sunday service.

(00:45:29):

So where you attend on Sundays determines the church for some versus who you spend life with.

(00:45:35):

Which is a very clumsy ecclesiology versus a really robust ecclesiology.

(00:45:40):

It is.

(00:45:41):

It is.

(00:45:41):

But it’s a really good way of coming about naming that for us, I think.

(00:45:47):

It’s really interesting to me.

(00:45:49):

I mean, we kind of stumbled into it.

(00:45:51):

I mean, we were gathering for two years until we ever had a worship service.

(00:45:56):

I mean, that was never the goal.

(00:45:58):

It wasn’t to have a worship service.

(00:46:00):

But I do think the critique comes down to some of it’s about money.

(00:46:05):

But the other thing is about intergenerational relationships.

(00:46:09):

So I always admit, if you’re part of the church is called Agape.

(00:46:14):

Agape and Ecclesia in Rogers Park at Loyola.

(00:46:18):

So I’ll be really candid and I’ll say if you’re part of this church you’re not

(00:46:22):

really going to have intergenerational relationships for a couple years Also you

(00:46:28):

will not be here for longer than four years You’ll be here nine months out of the

(00:46:33):

year So this church is absolutely limited If it’s important that you be in that

(00:46:38):

kind of context where there can maybe be some more mentorship I mean we absolutely

(00:46:42):

had mentorship and we have mentors Then you need to go to a different church Mm-hmm

(00:46:47):

But just like I wouldn’t go to a church down the road and say,

(00:46:51):

you’re all white,

(00:46:52):

so this isn’t the church.

(00:46:54):

Or like the church out in the far suburbs,

(00:46:58):

you have 40 people and everybody’s over the age of 60.

(00:47:01):

We wouldn’t say that’s not the church.

(00:47:03):

So we’re not going to say to 100 college students, well, this isn’t the church.

(00:47:09):

We will say you are limited in some ways.

(00:47:12):

You’re going to be more immature.

(00:47:13):

You’re going to have less experience.

(00:47:14):

You’re going to have less money.

(00:47:16):

but this is still a faithful embodiment and the reason we would do that is because

(00:47:20):

then when we send students out we want them to do the exact same thing in their

(00:47:24):

context so if I send them to Philly if I send them down to Texas I’m going to say

(00:47:28):

find a church in your neighborhood become part of it do all the things that you did

(00:47:32):

here but you’re still part of the church we would say you’re not waiting to

(00:47:38):

graduate to become part of the church you’re part of the church now yeah that’s

(00:47:41):

good nice okay last question what are you reading right now

(00:47:46):

Oh, that’s a good question Okay, I just finished

(00:47:52):

okay guys I’ve been reading a lot of fiction that’s great we want to hear it we

(00:47:56):

want to hear it well okay well I actually am also reading I have a literature

(00:47:59):

degree let’s talk about it do you really I didn’t know that well you guys know this

(00:48:05):

one Bo Lim oh so good contextual okay I highly recommend pairing that book with

(00:48:12):

Mark Glanville’s Preaching in a New Key they fit so well together okay that’s my

(00:48:17):

aside

(00:48:19):

I need to read that before tomorrow because we’re interviewing him.

(00:48:24):

I just finished A Gentleman in Moscow, which is a piece of fiction.

(00:48:29):

And then, okay, I gotta give this book a recommendation.

(00:48:32):

I’m reading it again.

(00:48:33):

Or listen to it on audio.

(00:48:35):

The book How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key, which is a memoir, satire.

(00:48:40):

Yes, I’ve read that.

(00:48:42):

It is the funniest thing.

(00:48:45):

He has some chapters that have nothing to do with his marriage.

(00:48:48):

They’re just theological reflections because he’s a professor of English at SCUD?

(00:48:55):

Savannah’s... Where is that school?

(00:49:00):

Anyhow, I think that’s going to be SCUD.

(00:49:01):

Savannah College of Art and Design.

(00:49:02):

SCUD?

(00:49:03):

Boom.

(00:49:03):

Got it.

(00:49:04):

Yeah.

(00:49:05):

That book is so funny.

(00:49:07):

And he has some sections where he’s just waxing and waning theologically that are

(00:49:10):

absolutely beautiful.

(00:49:12):

Okay, Fitch is going to disagree with me.

(00:49:13):

I recommended him this book and he got through the first 10 pages and he’s like,

(00:49:17):

I couldn’t do it.

(00:49:19):

For me, it is how Hauerwas talks about marriage actually embodied.

(00:49:24):

It is the best example, I think, of embodied marriage.

(00:49:28):

It takes all the theology and lives it out.

(00:49:30):

And you will laugh

(00:49:32):

So hard and you will probably cry How to Stay Married by Harrison Scott Key

(00:49:37):

Fantastic book It also has some If I remember correctly I read it a few years ago

(00:49:43):

It has some great Reflections on Ecclesiological structures And what they mean For

(00:49:50):

embodied relationships To withstand Some of those when you find yourself Married to

(00:49:56):

the stranger you didn’t think you married Yep

(00:50:02):

Thanks for bringing that one up Thanks for being nerdy with us Oh man,

(00:50:07):

you guys are great I love that you guys are doing this Also,

(00:50:12):

great questions I wish Fitch and I could have this kind of rapport I mean,

(00:50:16):

fantastic Would you mind telling him that we have a great radio presence?

(00:50:23):

Yes,

(00:50:23):

episode one,

(00:50:25):

it scarred us for life that we were not radio-y enough,

(00:50:29):

which I think is code for we’re just too nice and like mutual in our relationship.

(00:50:35):

Yeah, yeah.

(00:50:36):

I don’t need to put you guys down to get lifted up.

(00:50:38):

You guys are doing great.

(00:50:41):

Well, we will end the show and then we’ll read some reviews out loud of your show.

(00:50:51):

What a delight What an amazing idea this podcast is It’s been fun Thanks for being

(00:50:59):

here Thank you

For Context: Ethnography Interlude

Episode # 05

🎙️ Episode Overview

Ethnography and Theology — Holding the Tension Together. In this special episode of For Context, hosts Gino Curcuruto and Luke Stehr dive into the unique intersection of ethnography and theology. They explore why social science is a critical tool for the modern pastor and how their personal research projects—ranging from church planting in Philadelphia to CrossFit gyms in Texas—revealed the hidden “backpacks” people carry into their faith. Listen in!

Episode Highlights

* Defining the Method: Luke breaks down the difference between quantitative sociology (surveys and big data) and ethnography, a qualitative approach involving participant observation, field notes, and semi-structured interviews.

* The “Backpack” Analogy: Drawing from Clemens Sedmak’s Doing Local Theology, the hosts discuss how every person arrives at faith with a “backpack” full of cultural assumptions, family traditions, and past experiences that shape their theology.

* Gino’s Research: Investigating why people stay at his church plant, The Table Philadelphia. He discovered that the “pace” of the community and a deep sense of belonging were more impactful than the theological framework alone.

* Luke’s Research: A study titled “Muscles, Faith, and Friends.” Luke immersed himself in a CrossFit-based men’s Bible study to observe how shared physical struggle facilitates emotional vulnerability and shapes masculine theological identities.

* The Prophetic Voice: Why a theology must be firmly rooted in a local context to be genuinely prophetic. To speak truth into a culture, you must first understand its language and “embodied participation.”

Resources Mentioned

Doing Local Theology- Clemens Sedmak

Writing Ethnographic Field Notes -Robert M. Emerson, Rachel I. Fretz, and Linda L. Shaw

The Glass Church - Mark Mulder & Gerardo Marti

Ecclesiology and Ethnography Network:

https://www.ecclesiologyandethnography.net/

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

🤝 Join the For Context Community

If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news.

* Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com

Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

(00:00:10):

I’m Gino Curcuruto.

(00:00:12):

I’m Luke Stehr.

(00:00:14):

And you’re listening to For Context.

(00:00:16):

A podcast about Northern Seminary’s doctorate of ministry in contextual theology.

(00:00:24):

Okay,

(00:00:24):

well,

(00:00:25):

we are doing kind of a shorter,

(00:00:27):

different episode today,

(00:00:30):

where it’s just Gino and I talking specifically about...

(00:00:35):

He’s here.

(00:00:37):

But today we’re just talking about ethnography and why it’s such an integral part

(00:00:41):

of Northern’s contextual theology program and why you would even do ethnography as

(00:00:47):

part of a doctorate where you’re focusing on theology.

(00:00:51):

Because it’s not,

(00:00:52):

I think we’re discovering that this program sits in a pretty unique space where we

(00:00:58):

are trying to hold some things together that don’t often get held together.

(00:01:03):

Yeah.

(00:01:04):

So, yeah.

(00:01:06):

Yeah,

(00:01:06):

I think the one of the questions that maybe people might have is like,

(00:01:11):

what is ethnography and then why ethnography?

(00:01:15):

I want to just say from the beginning that while I do have like a top three

(00:01:19):

favorite sociologists and ethnographers,

(00:01:23):

I think that I didn’t have a handle on that.

(00:01:26):

You don’t have to be that nerdy to do this program, by the way.

(00:01:29):

before I was unaware of the controversy between like the all theologians and social

(00:01:37):

science like I just wasn’t you know I didn’t I didn’t grow up in the church didn’t

(00:01:41):

grow up in those conversations of like now we’re gonna we’re gonna lose our

(00:01:45):

theology if we just move to what sociologists say or we’re gonna lose our

(00:01:50):

verifiableness if we don’t think like social scientists in the church and so I

(00:01:56):

don’t know Luke I don’t want to put you on the spot but like

(00:01:59):

Your experience with that,

(00:02:00):

your understanding,

(00:02:00):

or maybe even some responses to how these things are important together.

(00:02:06):

Yeah, I think there’s a growing familiarity with sociology in the church because I think...

(00:02:14):

But it’s more along the lens of a quantitative sociological approach.

(00:02:17):

And by that, I mean it’s analyzing survey data, watching kind of statistical trends.

(00:02:24):

It’s the administration of surveys and trying to get kind of the biggest.

(00:02:28):

Mm-hmm.

(00:02:46):

And I actually interviewed for that program.

(00:02:48):

I didn’t make it in, so that’s not really me bragging.

(00:02:51):

But I interviewed for that program years and years and years ago.

(00:02:54):

But it’s a quantitative program.

(00:02:57):

And so the focus of the program is in this administration of and making sense of

(00:03:05):

basically huge data sets.

(00:03:07):

So it’s a statistical analysis to try and make sense of what’s happening kind of at

(00:03:11):

a macro level across the board.

(00:03:14):

Yeah.

(00:03:15):

I’m a little salty because my proposed research topic,

(00:03:19):

and we’ve talked about this,

(00:03:21):

was the religious dimensions of the anti-vax movement.

(00:03:23):

And I proposed this in 2018, 2018.

(00:03:30):

And man.

(00:03:31):

You would have had like a National Institute of Health grant.

(00:03:34):

I would have, man.

(00:03:37):

So, Kevin Doherty, you could have had me.

(00:03:42):

Look at you.

(00:03:43):

Yeah.

(00:03:44):

So, yeah, I called out.

(00:03:47):

I have nothing but respect for that program.

(00:03:49):

But it’s a very different approach to sociology than ethnography,

(00:03:52):

which leans into the qualitative dimension of the social science.

(00:03:56):

And so, ethnography is not demography.

(00:03:58):

Demography being like the study of demographics.

(00:04:01):

It can make use of demography to help kind of formulate the background assumptions.

(00:04:05):

But it...

(00:04:06):

In some ways,

(00:04:08):

bleeds more into like a cultural anthropology lens in my mind and that you’re a

(00:04:13):

participant observer is kind of one of the hallmarks of ethnography.

(00:04:17):

So you situate yourself within a context.

(00:04:20):

Yeah.

(00:04:21):

At varying levels of participation,

(00:04:23):

and we can talk about that and how we conducted our ethnographies later.

(00:04:28):

But you situate yourself as a participant in a context where you let people know

(00:04:34):

that you’re observing them because you want to be ethical.

(00:04:37):

But then you take field notes.

(00:04:39):

So you kind of are trying to make some shorthand notes about what you’re observing,

(00:04:44):

what you’re seeing.

(00:04:45):

There’s a surprising amount of methodology behind how you do field notes.

(00:04:49):

Well, we read a book for Mark Mulder’s class called Writing Ethnographic Field Notes.

(00:04:55):

And it was a doozy of a book about how you take field notes.

(00:04:59):

And then you conduct semi-structured interviews.

(00:05:01):

So as you’re observing people...

(00:05:04):

As a participant, not some detached, objective person watching behind a one-way mirror.

(00:05:10):

You’re in it.

(00:05:12):

You also conduct interviews with people to get a sense of their experiences.

(00:05:15):

And then on the back end,

(00:05:17):

after you’ve done that observation and interviewing,

(00:05:19):

you want to basically use a coding process to pull together that data in a way that

(00:05:25):

starts to make sense of it.

(00:05:27):

So how do you start analyzing the themes that people...

(00:05:30):

Talked about the things that you noticed in the environment, the interactions.

(00:05:35):

Yeah.

(00:05:36):

That’s a very long-winded way to describe what ethnography is.

(00:05:40):

I think that’s a really helpful baseline for our conversation.

(00:05:44):

I mean, we’re not doing a podcast describing a class in ethnography.

(00:05:49):

We’re talking about ethnography in this program and our experience.

(00:05:53):

And so starting with that description of what it is,

(00:05:54):

I think when we talk about ethnography and theology –

(00:05:59):

it’s really interesting to me.

(00:06:00):

I have a very simplistic understanding of it as saying,

(00:06:04):

if we think that the church actually is a social institution in any ways,

(00:06:11):

then we could conduct interviews to see how people are functioning socially,

(00:06:17):

rather than just staying theoretical in our,

(00:06:21):

well,

(00:06:21):

this is what we believe theologically and

(00:06:24):

And we I see as a participant observer,

(00:06:27):

I see all the indicators that that’s working right as the pastor,

(00:06:32):

as one of the pastors.

(00:06:33):

But actually getting into doing the interviews and hearing how other people’s like

(00:06:38):

subjective response and experience.

(00:06:40):

And then you kind of gather this qualitative data to say, yeah.

(00:06:45):

Maybe there’s something here.

(00:06:46):

Maybe there’s something.

(00:06:47):

So for me,

(00:06:49):

I understand,

(00:06:49):

and we read,

(00:06:50):

we had some readings where we saw there’s this controversy between this,

(00:06:55):

and I never really felt that.

(00:06:56):

I felt like,

(00:06:58):

I’m not saying I’m putting one,

(00:06:59):

I’m not putting social sciences over our theology or anything.

(00:07:03):

I just think checks and balances seems pretty reasonable.

(00:07:06):

Maybe, I don’t know, is that too naive of you or...

(00:07:10):

No, I think we’re both contextual theologians.

(00:07:14):

Can we call ourselves that if we haven’t completed the program yet?

(00:07:17):

We can.

(00:07:17):

We can.

(00:07:17):

We are.

(00:07:18):

We will.

(00:07:21):

We are.

(00:07:22):

We’ve talked about this on other episodes.

(00:07:24):

One of the core convictions of contextual theology is that all theology emerges out

(00:07:28):

of a context.

(00:07:30):

And a context is inherently a social phenomenon.

(00:07:34):

It is the interaction of people.

(00:07:35):

And

(00:07:36):

process of doing theology is, in most cases, a social activity.

(00:07:41):

I don’t even think about,

(00:07:43):

like,

(00:07:43):

if I were to write a paper for an academic theology conference,

(00:07:48):

even if I was sitting alone in an office to do that,

(00:07:53):

I would be

(00:07:55):

interacting, whether with people alive or dead, through their written works.

(00:08:00):

And then I would then take that paper and present it and field questions and

(00:08:04):

navigate responses and have to respond to people’s assumptions,

(00:08:08):

questions.

(00:08:09):

So theology,

(00:08:10):

even at an academic level where we may be tempted to think of it as an isolated

(00:08:14):

individual doing an intellectual exercise,

(00:08:17):

is inherently a social activity between people.

(00:08:22):

And if you’re, I think, a committed Christian...

(00:08:24):

Unless you’re making it up.

(00:08:26):

Because if you’re a committed Christian,

(00:08:27):

you still believe that God is the God of the living and not the dead.

(00:08:30):

So even if you’re referencing the things that dead people have written,

(00:08:33):

you’re engaging in some sort of social activity with the retired saints.

(00:08:40):

Yes, that’s great.

(00:08:40):

There’s a discourse happening and that is social.

(00:08:44):

That’s a great way of putting it.

(00:08:45):

We don’t just make this up.

(00:08:47):

We don’t make it up.

(00:08:48):

Yeah, I’d love to go down there, but I want to stay on topic.

(00:08:51):

We took this class,

(00:08:53):

and part of the class was we got to,

(00:08:57):

with Dr.

(00:08:58):

Mark Mulder,

(00:08:59):

who’s a sociologist,

(00:09:01):

written.

(00:09:01):

written a number of books that are ethnographic studies and had us read others,

(00:09:06):

was fascinating and really exciting,

(00:09:09):

and then gave us the opportunity to kind of set us loose and say,

(00:09:13):

do an ethnography.

(00:09:15):

And we did.

(00:09:17):

We did wildly different ones.

(00:09:19):

And I want to talk about those.

(00:09:20):

But yeah,

(00:09:22):

I want to talk about those because we came as contextual theologians,

(00:09:26):

not sociologists.

(00:09:27):

I had taken one class in undergrad in sociology.

(00:09:31):

Loved it.

(00:09:32):

It was many, many years ago.

(00:09:35):

And so I’ll just say I’ll just say I I my ethnography was of the church that I

(00:09:40):

pastor that we planted and looking at interviewing people that were mostly leaders.

(00:09:46):

And we were asking the question.

(00:09:47):

We’re asking this question.

(00:09:49):

We know why people leave our church.

(00:09:53):

We have that data.

(00:09:54):

People often will come and tell us why we’re leaving.

(00:09:58):

Not always angrily or with hostility,

(00:10:00):

but just,

(00:10:00):

you know,

(00:10:01):

there’s,

(00:10:01):

you’re not this enough or there’s not this.

(00:10:03):

But I’d never asked the question and investigated, why do these people stay?

(00:10:08):

And so that was kind of my research question.

(00:10:11):

And it opened up so many things,

(00:10:13):

particularly more through the interviews than the participant observer field notes,

(00:10:19):

which were very difficult because I lead lots of the things that I do.

(00:10:22):

But that’s a method thing that we could talk about.

(00:10:25):

But my paper was

(00:10:28):

asking and investigating why do people stay?

(00:10:31):

Because I have ideas,

(00:10:32):

particularly as the planter and pastor,

(00:10:34):

I think like,

(00:10:35):

well,

(00:10:35):

they all agree with my design for the church.

(00:10:38):

That’s why.

(00:10:40):

And that is part of it.

(00:10:41):

But that wasn’t what I found.

(00:10:43):

So we could talk about that.

(00:10:45):

But Luke, we did different things.

(00:10:48):

What did you do yours on?

(00:10:51):

I did not set out to write about this.

(00:10:53):

This was like we had to go in and present our ideas to Mulder.

(00:10:57):

And I threw out a couple.

(00:10:59):

And the one I ended up writing about was the one he got super excited about.

(00:11:02):

And it was the one I was least excited about.

(00:11:06):

So, Dr. Mulder, if you’re listening, thank you.

(00:11:11):

But I had gotten invited to a men’s...

(00:11:17):

Bible study, for lack of a better word, happening in the context of a CrossFit gym...

(00:11:23):

Uh,

(00:11:23):

one person in my church was part of it,

(00:11:25):

but most of the people were part of other churches or not part of churches and

(00:11:27):

we’re just loosely connected.

(00:11:29):

So I spent the summer, I, I’ve never lifted weights in my life.

(00:11:33):

So I want to start that out.

(00:11:34):

I was not like an active CrossFitter when I started this participant observation.

(00:11:39):

Um,

(00:11:40):

so I went,

(00:11:41):

uh,

(00:11:41):

every Sunday to a CrossFit gym where I would work out with people who have arms

(00:11:47):

bigger than my legs,

(00:11:48):

uh,

(00:11:50):

And then sit down in a circle and do a men’s Bible study curriculum with them.

(00:11:59):

And so again, a very different type of participant observation.

(00:12:01):

So I was not writing field notes while I was working out the curriculum.

(00:12:05):

that they used was a video-based curriculum.

(00:12:06):

So I would basically sit down as soon as the workout’s over.

(00:12:09):

I can barely hold a pen because my arms are shaking.

(00:12:12):

And I would scribble down as much as I could remember from all the interactions I

(00:12:18):

was trying to watch.

(00:12:20):

Before the workout happened, what happened during the workout, what happened immediately after.

(00:12:24):

And so I wrote basically a paper studying the intersection of masculinity,

(00:12:29):

community,

(00:12:29):

and vulnerability within this setting.

(00:12:32):

And it was a really...

(00:12:34):

uh, just insightful process.

(00:12:36):

Uh, and I think I had the advantage of you were studying a group you were familiar with.

(00:12:40):

I entered basically a brand new group where I had no context.

(00:12:44):

I was a relative stranger to almost everyone.

(00:12:48):

Um, and just learned a lot, uh, in the process.

(00:12:50):

Yeah.

(00:12:52):

Yeah.

(00:12:52):

Let me, maybe, maybe just to frame, uh, the conversation on these so we don’t get

(00:12:58):

too deep into the papers, which maybe that would be of interest.

(00:13:02):

If people are interested, you can definitely access them.

(00:13:04):

You can read Gino’s on his substack.

(00:13:06):

We’d be happy to share it.

(00:13:08):

But I wonder if maybe some questions could be about method,

(00:13:12):

though we’ve kind of described that,

(00:13:14):

would be about what did we discover?

(00:13:16):

What did we learn?

(00:13:18):

And maybe what surprised us in that learning?

(00:13:24):

And then maybe our general thoughts,

(00:13:26):

maybe we could close our time with like,

(00:13:28):

what is ethnography and theology to us now that we had that experience?

(00:13:32):

Because I want to say thank you to Dr.

(00:13:35):

Mulder too,

(00:13:35):

because I found I really enjoyed this a lot more than I expected.

(00:13:40):

And I thought I was going to really enjoy it.

(00:13:42):

But what I learned really kind of is shaping me now.

(00:13:45):

So should I go first?

(00:13:48):

Should I answer my own question?

(00:13:49):

Or do you want to ask me a question?

(00:13:53):

Gino, why don’t you tell us?

(00:13:54):

I’m going to answer my question.

(00:13:55):

Why don’t you tell us?

(00:13:59):

I had this thought that people with our church,

(00:14:02):

without going too much into detail about the structure,

(00:14:06):

but we’ve talked on other episodes about the three circles and these kind of

(00:14:10):

localized communities as part of one larger church.

(00:14:14):

I thought that people would really be people that they would resonate with the

(00:14:18):

framework,

(00:14:19):

which was true,

(00:14:20):

but what

(00:14:21):

And what came out was the sense of belonging was what people...

(00:14:27):

And they named the belonging as a place where they were seen and known and

(00:14:32):

understood.

(00:14:33):

And that had aspects of like...

(00:14:36):

The ecclesiological structure was conducive to their belonging.

(00:14:40):

The theological,

(00:14:42):

like,

(00:14:43):

I guess some of our kind of distinct distinctions were our distinctive ways of

(00:14:49):

thinking about things were part of that.

(00:14:51):

But also the pace.

(00:14:53):

The pace of how we do life together and church was a big factor.

(00:14:59):

And so they kept using language that I thought they would say some of the things

(00:15:04):

that we don’t do well would be coming up at the surface and maybe getting in the

(00:15:10):

way of their belonging differently.

(00:15:12):

But what they what they seem to say was that actually we just need to keep doing

(00:15:17):

what we’re doing in some ways.

(00:15:19):

And now these are a lot of people that have been participating for a number of years.

(00:15:23):

So they have a little bit more of a grasp on that.

(00:15:26):

What surprised me, though, was the idea.

(00:15:28):

of the pacing being such a thing along belonging.

(00:15:31):

So we move at slow paces.

(00:15:33):

We’re not a growth-driven church,

(00:15:35):

though we’re not against growth,

(00:15:36):

but we want to learn a common language so that we can tell the truth to one another

(00:15:44):

and care for and shape discipleship in those ways.

(00:15:49):

And as a result,

(00:15:49):

I think one of the things that I was interested in researching further is how this

(00:15:54):

kind of ethos

(00:15:56):

of the church is antithetical to what I would call the church growth movement.

(00:16:02):

And which was also something that our professor has written on with the glass

(00:16:06):

church,

(00:16:06):

his book on Shuler and the others.

(00:16:08):

And then also his kind of partner in those books,

(00:16:12):

Gerardo Marti has written quite a number on a number of books,

(00:16:16):

ethnographies on churches.

(00:16:17):

Do you know how would you rate those books?

(00:16:20):

I gave them four stars until I was told that I had given them four stars.

(00:16:24):

Yeah,

(00:16:24):

Gerardo Marti called Gino out at a diner in Chicago over his four-star reviews of

(00:16:31):

his books.

(00:16:32):

So, Dr. Marti, if you’re listening, we have not forgotten.

(00:16:35):

And I thank you for letting me be there for that interaction.

(00:16:39):

He did.

(00:16:40):

He is such a gracious man and an incredible scholar.

(00:16:44):

He shared my post of my paper and he got it.

(00:16:49):

And then I said, you know, it’s like four stars.

(00:16:53):

That paper is like four stars at best.

(00:16:55):

So I derailed you, but I’m going to quote your paper to you.

(00:17:00):

Oh, wow.

(00:17:00):

Thank you.

(00:17:01):

Because I have it pulled out because I love you and I value you and your thoughts.

(00:17:05):

I’m actually going to quote one of the people you quoted.

(00:17:07):

And so just to get an idea of like, here’s the table.

(00:17:10):

You did these semi-structured interviews to kind of get at, why do you stay?

(00:17:14):

Why are we different?

(00:17:14):

And you’re talking about this tension between the church.

(00:17:16):

growth model and the way that the table operates.

(00:17:19):

And you have one of your leaders in your church said this,

(00:17:24):

I feel like we’re just not a traditional model.

(00:17:27):

I think on purpose,

(00:17:28):

because that’s,

(00:17:29):

I think,

(00:17:30):

a lot of people prefer a transactional church where they can pop in and pop out

(00:17:33):

when they want to.

(00:17:34):

They don’t want to have to be deeply involved.

(00:17:36):

For example, the way that we have a homily and then a discussion.

(00:17:39):

I love the discussion time.

(00:17:40):

We recently had a young man visiting say, this is awesome.

(00:17:43):

I love that you guys discuss a homily.

(00:17:44):

Are you kidding me?

(00:17:45):

I’ve never done this before.

(00:17:47):

He was so excited and got emotional about it.

(00:17:50):

And so you start to,

(00:17:52):

by interviewing,

(00:17:52):

you’re starting to kind of peel some layers back on what,

(00:17:57):

not just what do you as a leader in the congregation notice,

(00:18:00):

but what do the people in the congregation notice,

(00:18:02):

believe,

(00:18:03):

assume?

(00:18:03):

Yeah, yeah.

(00:18:04):

Yeah.

(00:18:05):

I’m going to comment on that and say that one of the beautiful things about this

(00:18:11):

experience for me was I feel like I do a lot of work in silence in some ways.

(00:18:21):

I’m not making any kind of negative statement about the people at the table, Philadelphia.

(00:18:26):

We just don’t have a lot of margin to talk about the things that we’re doing

(00:18:32):

because we’re doing them.

(00:18:33):

And some of those reflect.

(00:18:35):

So when I’m talking about church structure and strategy,

(00:18:38):

I’m often thinking about,

(00:18:39):

yeah,

(00:18:40):

I think this is working and that’s because no one’s complaining or,

(00:18:43):

you know,

(00:18:43):

I heard a couple of positives or whatever.

(00:18:46):

But what I don’t always know is, is it doing the thing that we were aiming for it to do?

(00:18:52):

And I sit down and do these interviews and I’m like blown away by the way that

(00:18:56):

these amazing people are describing this.

(00:19:00):

the way God is at work in their lives through the spaces that we’re opening up and

(00:19:04):

the intentional directions that we take.

(00:19:08):

And so that was just a huge positive because I thought,

(00:19:11):

oh,

(00:19:11):

actually,

(00:19:12):

they’re picking up a lot more of this than I may have been aware of.

(00:19:17):

And I don’t mean intellectually, I mean embodied participation.

(00:19:21):

They’re doing these things and have these stories to tell.

(00:19:25):

And I don’t always get access to every one of those just because of limits of time.

(00:19:29):

So if you’re listening and you’re at all involved in the church,

(00:19:34):

sociology is super helpful to kind of check and see if your theology is actually

(00:19:40):

working out to the ground the way that you wanted it to.

(00:19:44):

Yeah.

(00:19:46):

Yeah.

(00:19:47):

I think we read another book for Roxborough’s class,

(00:19:51):

which I think gets at this and why there’s this interplay of contextual theology

(00:19:56):

and why you would do ethnography as part of that.

(00:19:59):

So there’s this book by Clarence Sedmak,

(00:20:02):

and he writes that theology is always done with a backpack.

(00:20:05):

And in this backpack,

(00:20:06):

we find all the things that our family and friends,

(00:20:08):

our culture and tradition,

(00:20:09):

our training and experience have packed for us.

(00:20:11):

We have packed only a few things ourselves.

(00:20:13):

We hardly know about all the things we carry.

(00:20:16):

No question.

(00:20:17):

It is a mess.

(00:20:18):

Our backpack is full of things we do not use and it lacks other things we need.

(00:20:22):

It contains Proverbs we’ve heard,

(00:20:24):

the books we’ve read,

(00:20:24):

our memories of people and encounters and experiences,

(00:20:26):

and our favorite words and ideas.

(00:20:28):

No two theologians have the same backpack.

(00:20:31):

And so by doing ethnography,

(00:20:33):

what we’re attempting to do,

(00:20:34):

if we’re going to use Sed Mac’s analogy,

(00:20:37):

is we’re trying to open up the backpack of whatever,

(00:20:40):

maybe a congregation,

(00:20:41):

maybe it’s a men’s group in a CrossFit gym.

(00:20:43):

We’re trying to open up the backpack and pull out stuff and go, well, what is this?

(00:20:47):

And why is it here?

(00:20:48):

And what is it?

(00:20:49):

What is it doing in the backpack and how is it impacting how you’re carrying out your life?

(00:20:54):

So ethnography is an attempt to analyze the contents of the backpack.

(00:20:58):

Yeah, that’s great.

(00:20:59):

I just happened to find out that in the backpack were a lot of positive things.

(00:21:04):

And so if I could do if I had done more interviews,

(00:21:07):

if I could have done a broader,

(00:21:08):

I probably would have gotten to some of the the people that had some questions or

(00:21:14):

concerns.

(00:21:15):

So I think my paper reads way too positive and.

(00:21:18):

Because of what was in the backpack,

(00:21:20):

the experience of the others as well,

(00:21:22):

and how they were maybe living out those things,

(00:21:26):

which was greatly encouraging.

(00:21:28):

And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

(00:21:29):

But I think sometimes that could become...

(00:21:33):

It could sound too aspirational in some ways, but it was good.

(00:21:37):

It was a good experience.

(00:21:38):

So how that’s changing me,

(00:21:40):

I think was part of my other question or how it’s changing is I am thinking about

(00:21:44):

further research.

(00:21:45):

I mean, we will be writing a dissertation and I probably will do the one.

(00:21:48):

work on our church.

(00:21:50):

I don’t know.

(00:21:51):

But I did submit this paper,

(00:21:54):

and I know you did as well,

(00:21:55):

but I’m not going to steal your thunder,

(00:21:57):

to the Ecclesiology and Ethnography Networks Conference and got to present on it in

(00:22:03):

Chicago.

(00:22:04):

And I further research,

(00:22:06):

I presented it more as a work in progress to say I want to expand because I think

(00:22:11):

there’s something to when I’m studying some social theorists about acceleration and

(00:22:16):

the pace at which life is moving.

(00:22:18):

And then when you think about AI, just kind of speeding things up.

(00:22:23):

And then giving people free time,

(00:22:25):

not just unemployment,

(00:22:26):

but I’m talking about if the computers do the computer things and people can do the

(00:22:31):

embodied human things in a most positive sense,

(00:22:35):

then the pace of our life is still going to change.

(00:22:37):

keep going fast.

(00:22:39):

And what does that mean for the church?

(00:22:41):

And what kind of counter witness could a slower paced church that says,

(00:22:47):

hey,

(00:22:47):

we’re going to move at the pace of relationship,

(00:22:49):

not the pace of society around us.

(00:22:52):

And so I’d like to dig into that more.

(00:22:53):

I think there might be something more there than what I initially thought.

(00:22:58):

That’s exciting.

(00:23:01):

I want to correct myself.

(00:23:01):

I said Clarence Sedmek and it’s Clemens.

(00:23:04):

I

(00:23:04):

Clemens said Mac.

(00:23:05):

Yeah, that’s right.

(00:23:06):

What was the name of that book?

(00:23:07):

Do you have that in front of you?

(00:23:08):

Doing Local Theology.

(00:23:10):

Doing Local Theology.

(00:23:11):

We read that for Roxborough, right?

(00:23:12):

Correct.

(00:23:14):

Yeah, that’s good.

(00:23:17):

Doing Local Theology was a fantastic book as well.

(00:23:20):

We should have a list of books in our show notes or something.

(00:23:23):

We’re going to have show notes.

(00:23:25):

We’re up in our game each episode.

(00:23:28):

Not just a transcript anymore, folks.

(00:23:30):

Show notes.

(00:23:31):

Show notes.

(00:23:32):

So I’ve read your paper.

(00:23:37):

I’ve seen you present on it.

(00:23:39):

There’s the spoiler.

(00:23:41):

I love your paper.

(00:23:42):

I love the work that you did.

(00:23:44):

I think it’s fascinating in so many ways.

(00:23:46):

Yeah.

(00:23:48):

what, what did you get surprised by?

(00:23:51):

What did you learn?

(00:23:54):

Oh man.

(00:23:55):

Uh, so many things.

(00:23:57):

Um, I’m such a man’s man, you know, we’re laughing.

(00:24:04):

I’m not, you can’t see me.

(00:24:05):

Your sarcasm might not come through on this episode.

(00:24:08):

I’m five 11 skinny.

(00:24:11):

Uh, I have better hair than half the women in my church and they would agree.

(00:24:16):

Um,

(00:24:18):

And you’re in Texas.

(00:24:19):

I’m in Texas.

(00:24:21):

And I don’t wear cowboy boots.

(00:24:22):

I don’t drive a big truck.

(00:24:24):

I am not a stereotypical man in Texas.

(00:24:26):

That’s where I live.

(00:24:29):

So I went really hardcore into the participant observer role that you do in

(00:24:34):

ethnography in that I quite literally showed up every week and did whatever the

(00:24:41):

heck you do at a CrossFit gym.

(00:24:43):

um i still don’t know what i did uh lifted some heavy things and almost passed out

(00:24:48):

a few times and all of that um and in the you know with the intention of like

(00:24:55):

there’s something happening here relationally between these men there’s something

(00:24:58):

going on uh with an emotional connection and a display of vulnerable like an open

(00:25:06):

vulnerability with one another that

(00:25:09):

was really surprising and so I part of ethnography and when you do an ethnography

(00:25:14):

is you review the literature and kind of the social science literature in your area

(00:25:18):

and so I delved a little bit into masculine theory which is not something I’d ever

(00:25:23):

really read much of I’ve read a decent amount of feminist literature had not really

(00:25:27):

read any kind of serious study of masculine theory learn there are actually a

(00:25:32):

variety of masculine theories and so it’s interesting to try and like okay well

(00:25:36):

what

(00:25:37):

what I actually see playing out.

(00:25:40):

Um, and then how is it impacting the theology of these men in this group?

(00:25:44):

And not just how’s it impacting,

(00:25:45):

but what’s the theology that they’re actually talking about,

(00:25:49):

that they’re embodying,

(00:25:50):

that they are letting guide and shape their lives.

(00:25:54):

And so honestly, I discovered a lot of things that are just intention that I think, um,

(00:26:02):

we don’t necessarily make a lot of space for.

(00:26:05):

We want to just say, like, complementarianism is bad and always has bad results.

(00:26:11):

I’m not a complementarian, so before you come at me, I’m not one.

(00:26:17):

But it was interesting to see people responding to super complementarian biblical

(00:26:22):

studies,

(00:26:23):

Bible study.

(00:26:24):

There was actually not a lot of Bible in it.

(00:26:25):

So...

(00:26:28):

It was interesting to watch them respond to that and then the conversations that

(00:26:31):

emerged afterwards and then also,

(00:26:34):

you know,

(00:26:34):

have that complementarian theology be taught.

(00:26:38):

But then to have this counterbalance of like, there are men who are just openly crying.

(00:26:44):

Like we’ve done a workout together and we’re sitting around and having a discussion

(00:26:47):

and they’re openly crying and...

(00:26:51):

talking about how it’s okay and good for men to be emotionally expressive and to

(00:26:57):

support one another and to hug one another and to like have rich,

(00:27:01):

deep connections with one another and how that’s necessary.

(00:27:04):

And so it was just really interesting to walk into this space where I really didn’t

(00:27:08):

know anyone,

(00:27:09):

which I think helped me.

(00:27:10):

Like I was definitely a participant,

(00:27:13):

but I also got to kind of have that role because I’m so new to the group.

(00:27:16):

I definitely have this observer role.

(00:27:18):

And it was a little more natural for me to like be quieter and hang back and just

(00:27:22):

kind of watch things.

(00:27:25):

I think of I’m sorry, I just interject.

(00:27:28):

I think of that statement like you don’t judge a book by its cover kind of idea.

(00:27:35):

When you when I think about.

(00:27:37):

What I envisioned as I knew you were doing this because we were in class together

(00:27:40):

and you’re doing these notes and I’m thinking like my expectations of CrossFit in

(00:27:45):

Texas kind of with this Bible study video curriculum that I was like,

(00:27:51):

I don’t like any of these people.

(00:27:52):

They’re not going to be my, that’s not going to be my people.

(00:27:54):

And Luke is going to have a hard time.

(00:27:56):

And so I just want to,

(00:27:57):

I want to try to connect this,

(00:27:59):

or maybe you can do it of like,

(00:28:02):

as a contextual theologian,

(00:28:04):

how important it is for you to show up and be present and listen and participate to

(00:28:10):

understand more about what’s going on than what I might assume wrongly about

(00:28:17):

muscles, muscly guys, lifting weights.

(00:28:20):

My paper is called Muscles, Faith, and Friends.

(00:28:23):

There it is, yes.

(00:28:25):

Muscles, Faith, and Friends.

(00:28:27):

Watching a very, like, complementarian...

(00:28:32):

Loosely Bible study curriculum that and so what I’m what I’m trying to communicate

(00:28:38):

is I might differ with every aspect of this and you might,

(00:28:44):

too.

(00:28:45):

We might have like a counter.

(00:28:47):

for everything but when you were there you saw goodness and beauty and and things

(00:28:52):

happen that was surprising probably to you but actually to me it was even more

(00:28:58):

surprising as a non-participant like you just telling me this is what i saw so i

(00:29:02):

don’t know can you speak to that a little bit more i think there’s and maybe this

(00:29:08):

is like on a pastoral side and then i’ll try to speak to a more academic side like

(00:29:11):

you can’t pastor people you don’t love um

(00:29:16):

And so I think part,

(00:29:18):

and then on the more academic side,

(00:29:19):

I don’t know that you can really do ethnography well if you’re not going to try and

(00:29:22):

empathize.

(00:29:25):

And so I think part of allowing yourself to be a participant observer is to allow

(00:29:29):

yourself to observe and be aware of the emotional experiences of the people that

(00:29:38):

you are participating with and observing and allowing yourself to

(00:29:46):

Just appreciate those for what they are,

(00:29:48):

to let them be what they are,

(00:29:50):

and not to judge them for what they’re not.

(00:29:54):

There’s a lot that was said in the Bible study I didn’t agree with.

(00:29:58):

There’s some interesting theological things that got said.

(00:30:03):

I think I only interjected once, and that was part of my...

(00:30:07):

I had a church member there that...

(00:30:09):

something was said that it was like this is not at all okay like and all the things

(00:30:14):

that i think are not okay this is really not okay and i’m gonna say something and

(00:30:17):

like it was basically like a prosperity gospel uh like man if you just do

(00:30:21):

everything right and you don’t swear and you work hard jesus will bless your life

(00:30:26):

um and mike you’re rich and i’m like

(00:30:28):

yeah no jesus says life gets harder if you follow him uh more wonderful but yeah

(00:30:38):

harder like this is not easy and so yeah do i agree with every single thing that

(00:30:45):

was said nope i don’t and it’s actually okay i don’t have to agree with everything

(00:30:50):

because i can also recognize that like

(00:30:52):

Even if I disagree with the contents of this Bible study at the end of the day,

(00:30:55):

I’d encourage a lot of them to go home and be loving and supportive husbands and

(00:30:58):

devoted fathers.

(00:31:00):

And I may not agree with the assumptions that got them there.

(00:31:04):

Yeah.

(00:31:05):

Yeah.

(00:31:06):

And I’m not a pragmatist, so I’m not trying to argue that the ends justify the means.

(00:31:11):

Right.

(00:31:14):

Go ahead.

(00:31:14):

I’m sorry.

(00:31:15):

I can appreciate that group for what it is and those people for who they are.

(00:31:19):

the key thing to me that you said is like, is, is how this cultivates empathy.

(00:31:24):

And if it doesn’t,

(00:31:25):

I mean,

(00:31:26):

that,

(00:31:26):

that’s,

(00:31:26):

that to me feels like a statement about the intersection of theology and

(00:31:32):

ethnography,

(00:31:33):

because I can imagine you could be a social scientist and not necessarily have to

(00:31:38):

have any empathy for what’s going on,

(00:31:41):

but the,

(00:31:42):

the kind of the environment that you were in,

(00:31:44):

what they were doing and who you are as a person,

(00:31:47):

um,

(00:31:49):

That connection,

(00:31:50):

because I was talking about my prejudgment of people and you going in and finding

(00:31:57):

that you can be empathetic as you’re in a space,

(00:32:00):

is what we talk about as followers of Jesus to be present.

(00:32:04):

to see how God is at work in a space.

(00:32:08):

I think this is why I find ethnography so helpful to cultivate these skills of

(00:32:14):

awareness,

(00:32:15):

of observing.

(00:32:16):

And then also you’re talking about the connection as humans, which is beautiful.

(00:32:20):

Yeah.

(00:32:21):

And then I think on the theological side, like,

(00:32:24):

we have to recognize everyone is a theologian.

(00:32:25):

That’s the backpack that Ted Mac is talking about.

(00:32:28):

Everyone’s coming with a backpack and that’s their theology and it’s shaped by so many things.

(00:32:34):

And there may be some things in their backpack that just really aren’t good.

(00:32:37):

Um, but I can’t,

(00:32:40):

help bring about a more good beautiful and true theology if i don’t understand

(00:32:45):

what’s in their backpack yes and i can’t like and i think even said mac talks about

(00:32:50):

like there’s a prophetic role here and he’s talking about jesus challenging local

(00:32:54):

culture and said mac in doing local theology says jesus raises his prophetic voice

(00:33:00):

after having been introduced to the local culture he does not start from scratch

(00:33:04):

genuine prophecy has to use familiar concepts in order to have an impact

(00:33:10):

Only a theology firmly rooted in a culture can be genuinely prophetic in that culture.

(00:33:16):

Prophecy is effective when it reorganizes knowledge already part of the culture.

(00:33:20):

To stand completely outside is to be ignored.

(00:33:24):

Thus,

(00:33:24):

the more contextually rooted a theology,

(00:33:26):

the more acute can be its prophetic voice and action.

(00:33:29):

So I can’t speak to the theology of a group of people.

(00:33:33):

whether they be the table philly or a group of jabronis doing crossfit when it’s

(00:33:39):

115 degrees outside in dfw um unless i enter into that space and i start to try and

(00:33:45):

understand what they’re bringing in and that’s why ethnography and theology go

(00:33:50):

together yeah amen amen the the um

(00:33:57):

Also,

(00:33:57):

with that,

(00:33:58):

I was thinking that the idea of being in a context,

(00:34:03):

we’re not just talking about a linguistic thing,

(00:34:05):

like knowing the language.

(00:34:07):

I feel like a lot of theologians want to just say...

(00:34:11):

You’ve got to know the language and then you can speak the truth to them.

(00:34:15):

I think there’s a relational thing.

(00:34:16):

That’s why I want to come back to empathy.

(00:34:19):

And it’s not merely they’ve got to know that you love them before they will listen to you.

(00:34:24):

It’s partially that.

(00:34:26):

There’s something about, in a world of antagonisms...

(00:34:31):

And all of these things like being present in some ways demonstrates that you’re

(00:34:36):

not going to bolt as soon as there’s controversy.

(00:34:39):

You’re not speaking something so that they will change and you can leave.

(00:34:43):

You’re saying, I want to unfold and unwind.

(00:34:47):

our differences here.

(00:34:48):

I feel like that’s how prophetic words in context are very helpful,

(00:34:54):

is I don’t see,

(00:34:55):

maybe you do,

(00:34:56):

I don’t see a lot of people instantly changing when people

(00:35:01):

People are being truth tellers to them in some way.

(00:35:03):

I see people going,

(00:35:05):

wait,

(00:35:06):

but if that means if you’re saying this,

(00:35:08):

I have to change this about my life and I’m really scared about that.

(00:35:12):

What do I do with that?

(00:35:13):

And then we have to like be present.

(00:35:14):

You see what I’m saying?

(00:35:15):

Like there’s.

(00:35:16):

And I think that’s why your point is so important to me,

(00:35:20):

that of being present,

(00:35:21):

of having the understanding through the ethnography of what actually is happening

(00:35:27):

here in this culture,

(00:35:29):

and then the theological understanding to speak into that through the language of

(00:35:34):

the culture and in the place with presence.

(00:35:38):

Yeah.

(00:35:41):

Couldn’t have said it better if you were David Fitch himself.

(00:35:44):

Oh, geez.

(00:35:45):

That’s problems.

(00:35:46):

That’s problems.

(00:35:47):

So you submitted your paper and it was accepted to the same conference.

(00:35:52):

Actually, three of us from our cohort, which is like...

(00:35:54):

Which is super exciting.

(00:35:56):

Super exciting.

(00:35:58):

really, really proud of both of you.

(00:36:00):

Uh, I only got to, I got to see our other cohort members presentation.

(00:36:03):

I didn’t get to see yours, so I’m very sorry.

(00:36:06):

Um, and I only got to see the end of his cause we presented at the same time.

(00:36:10):

Uh,

(00:36:10):

but,

(00:36:11):

uh,

(00:36:12):

yeah,

(00:36:12):

what,

(00:36:13):

I mean,

(00:36:13):

it was just truly exciting to get to,

(00:36:16):

to share what I’d worked on.

(00:36:18):

Um, I honestly expected more like critical pushback than I got.

(00:36:23):

I know that that experience varied for all of us.

(00:36:27):

Um,

(00:36:28):

But I think it was exciting for me to see that my paper gave people hope for the

(00:36:34):

men in their lives.

(00:36:36):

And that there could be significant spaces for men to experience deep human

(00:36:42):

connection with one another.

(00:36:44):

And I think one of the things we have maybe lost...

(00:36:49):

And I think men’s ministry and women’s ministry often get this wrong.

(00:36:53):

So I’m not trying to...

(00:36:55):

do this uh but i think we’ve neglected the significance of homosocial relationships

(00:37:00):

relationships between people the same sex platonic homosocial homosocial

(00:37:04):

relationships um

(00:37:08):

And I think for men,

(00:37:09):

especially what this paper shows is there’s a real necessary component for,

(00:37:16):

I think,

(00:37:16):

one of the things that fueled the emotional connection was an intense shared

(00:37:20):

experience of struggle.

(00:37:23):

And I think that’s fairly well documented.

(00:37:25):

So that’s not a shock.

(00:37:27):

But I think if we’re thinking about,

(00:37:28):

you know,

(00:37:28):

if you’re someone out there running a men’s ministry for your church,

(00:37:31):

don’t just always make it a breakfast.

(00:37:33):

Yeah.

(00:37:35):

Think about some sort of shared physical tactile activity because I think you will

(00:37:41):

see some sort of opening up afterward.

(00:37:45):

So pair that with your emotional disclosure time, whatever that may end up being.

(00:37:50):

Yeah, that’s good.

(00:37:52):

That’s good.

(00:37:53):

I think maybe as we kind of wrap up our time on this one, I’m thinking –

(00:37:58):

I want to share a little bit and then maybe you could as well about just being in

(00:38:02):

that academic conference.

(00:38:03):

I’d never presented a paper before.

(00:38:05):

Maybe you have.

(00:38:06):

Nope.

(00:38:07):

OK, so it was new to both of us.

(00:38:09):

We threw our names in there because we’re like, hey, this was really interesting.

(00:38:12):

And one of the things that I thought was fascinating was.

(00:38:19):

with the three of us being there from this class,

(00:38:22):

we had a perspective that was very church centric.

(00:38:25):

I mean,

(00:38:26):

I know you were doing a men’s ministry,

(00:38:27):

not your church,

(00:38:29):

but it was like a representation of we’re not sociologists trying to understand

(00:38:34):

religion.

(00:38:35):

We’re, we’re church people trying to understand humanity in some ways.

(00:38:41):

And, and I’m not, I’m not taking anything from any of the other presenters.

(00:38:44):

There’s some amazing work there, but,

(00:38:47):

But I found so much hope

(00:38:50):

for the church in the conclusions that we and others made in that.

(00:38:56):

And so I was surprised and encouraged by that.

(00:38:59):

But I also thought if we weren’t there,

(00:39:03):

I’m not sure how much the voices of the everyday pastor would be included.

(00:39:10):

And it’s not because they’re excluding it.

(00:39:12):

This is a group, ecclesiology and ethnography.

(00:39:16):

They’re not just all social scientists.

(00:39:17):

Yeah, they want to bring it together.

(00:39:18):

Yeah.

(00:39:19):

They want to bring it together.

(00:39:20):

And they’ve been doing this for a while.

(00:39:21):

And I just found it such a welcoming group for someone with very low academic

(00:39:25):

credentials,

(00:39:27):

but a high view of the church and ethnography.

(00:39:31):

And so my experience was really,

(00:39:33):

really positive,

(00:39:34):

even though it was definitely disrupting me in a lot of good ways.

(00:39:39):

Yeah.

(00:39:39):

Yeah.

(00:39:40):

I would agree.

(00:39:41):

And I think I would say to anyone out there who’s leading in a ministry context,

(00:39:46):

these tools are so helpful.

(00:39:48):

They’re so beneficial.

(00:39:51):

I think learning to be a good ethnographer can only help you as you try to be your

(00:39:57):

congregation’s theologian in residence.

(00:40:00):

Yeah.

(00:40:01):

Yeah,

(00:40:02):

it’s going to give you the tools you need to understand how to open up people’s

(00:40:06):

backpacks and not in a way that’s like you’re going to rip it off their shoulders

(00:40:09):

and start dissecting what they’ve got.

(00:40:10):

But a way to journey with people and start understanding what they’re carrying as

(00:40:14):

far as background assumptions,

(00:40:15):

culture,

(00:40:16):

stories.

(00:40:17):

uh kind of what’s under the water what’s under the surface and so i would say uh

(00:40:24):

maybe you have started listening and you’re like maybe this program’s for me do it

(00:40:28):

yeah look into the contextual theology program at northern and that’s my shameless

(00:40:32):

plug for it because it’s changed my life it’s made me a better um a better pastor

(00:40:39):

just to be able to understand what what is going on what is

(00:40:44):

the thing that people are carrying with them?

(00:40:46):

And how do I understand that?

(00:40:47):

And now how do I speak to it in a way that they can receive?

(00:40:51):

Man, that’s good.

(00:40:53):

I want to do an episode with you one time where we talk about the ways this program

(00:40:56):

is changing us as humans or helping us as humans in ways,

(00:40:59):

because I think about almost every single day,

(00:41:02):

something I’ve learned from this program or the MATM program,

(00:41:06):

Theology of

(00:41:06):

mission um it helps me relate with my kids all gen z-ers and like understanding

(00:41:14):

these like constructs of everything it’s just really helpful so yeah but i also

(00:41:19):

want to just thank everyone for listening and uh go ahead and give us a review

(00:41:23):

we’ve never asked for a review but we because we’re not really great at these whole

(00:41:27):

podcast things but we want you to like and share and give us a review we’ll take

(00:41:31):

negative reviews just give us a review it’s super helpful

(00:41:35):

And if you’re on Substack, subscribe.

(00:41:37):

Yes.

(00:41:37):

Because I don’t think you can really review a podcast on Substack.

(00:41:40):

But anywhere else, leave a review.

(00:41:43):

So thanks for listening.

(00:41:44):

We’ll catch you next time.

For Context: Dr. Jonny Morrison

Episode # 04

🎙️ Episode Overview

On this episode, we welcome another program grad in Jonny Morrison. Jonny is a pastor, writer, and church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. He’s known for his integration of theology, culture, and everyday life in ways that are thoughtful, creative, and accessible. Whether preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives.

This conversation digs deep into the class on leadership from Dr. Alan Roxburgh. From there we discuss atonement theories and contextual theology. Another brilliant guest and discussion. Listen in!

For Context is sponsored by Northern Seminary. To learn more about the Contextual Theology program (or any of the number MA, M.Div, and D.Min offerings), visit seminary.edu.

📚 Resources

* Jonny Morrison: Prodigal Gospel

* Gino Curcuruto: Following Jesus Into the Ordinary

* Luke Stehr: Faith In Situ

🤝 Join the For Context Community

If you enjoyed this deep dive, consider becoming a paid subscriber to help us keep providing the context behind the news.

* Subscribe to the Newsletter: forcontextpod.substack.com

* Leave a Review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

Episode Transcript

Gino Curcuruto:

I am Gino Curcuruto

Luke Stehr:

I’m Luke Stehr

Gino Curcuruto:

And you’re listening to For Context,

Luke Stehr:

A podcast about Northern Seminary’s Doctorate of Ministry in Contextual Theology.

Gino Curcuruto:

On this episode of For Context, we have Jonny Morrison. He’s a graduate of the Contextual Theology program. He’s a pastor, a writer, a church planter based in Salt Lake City, Utah. And whether he’s preaching, writing, or hosting conversations, Jonny is passionate about helping people develop a bigger imagination for God, experience the radical love of Jesus, and learn to recognize and join God’s work in their everyday lives. This was a fantastic conversation and I hope that you will listen in and enjoy it yourselves.

Welcome back to For Context. I’m Gino. Luke’s here with me. You want to say hi, Luke? Usually I talk

Luke Stehr:

Hey everyone, all five listeners.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah. Our guest today is Johnny Morrison. Jonny, excited to have you on. Would love for you to just maybe introduce yourself to our listeners and we’ll tell ‘em why we’re having you on later, but I think it’ll become very self-evident as you speak.

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah, yeah. It’s so good to be with you both. Excited to be a part of the podcast, as you said. I’m Jonny, I’m in Salt Lake City, Utah. I’m a pastor of a church here called Missio Day, written a couple books, Prodigal Gospel and Light Is Air, and I was in the doctor of Ministry contextual theology program, graduated in 2021, so I think I got a walk right after COVID, which I feel very grateful for. So we actually got to walk. We were masked, but we got to walk,

Gino Curcuruto:

But you got to walk

Jonny Morrison:

And none of our classes were disrupted by COVID, so nothing was on Zoom. Everything was in person. I wrote during COVID. I was kind of like the perfect cohort for that moment.

That’s a great window.

Yeah, it was perfect. We went to a Cubs game. This is not what you asked, I’m sorry.

Gino Curcuruto:

No, this is great.

Tell the story.

in Chicago when we were there to graduate and it was the first Cubs game that was open to the community, so the energy was insane. It was the best time to graduate. There was so many people there. Bill Murray comes out and sings “Take Me out to the Ball Game.” It’s like the city opens for a moment and then I get a walk and I was like, this is the best experience

That is the first good story around COVID and education I think I’ve ever heard. So thank you. My heart is warmed.

Luke Stehr:

You just, like, hit that window perfectly.

Jonny Morrison:

I just feel so grateful because then I was with them, I was talking to some friends who did the program almost right afterwards, like Jim Pace and they were on lockdown for so long and they had one of my favorite classes they had to do on Zoom and it sounds like it was one of the worst classes because they had to do it on Zoom with Roxburgh. But I loved that class and I loved being with him. That’s why I was like, that would be brutal.

Gino Curcuruto:

Also, that class, that particular section of that class is kind of legendary in the lore of Northern Seminary. Yes,

Luke Stehr:

That’s probably another podcast.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, I won’t go into it. Luke, you could ask Jonny a question, change the subject.

Luke Stehr:

Well, while we’re on the subject, what was your favorite class? That’s one of the questions we would’ve asked at one point, so we’ll just get into it now. So why was your time with Alan Roxburgh so formative? What stands out to you about that class?

Jonny Morrison:

I loved my time with Roxburgh. That class I thought was so helpful. Roxburgh was so the way he thought was so helpful to me, he could think so historically, so contextually and he had such a power of narrative, historical narrative to be able to lead us to a moment in time. And I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I mean everybody probably says this, but I’m in the program at such a fascinating moment. I start 2017, 2018, so I’m the everybody’s wrestling with how did the Evangelicals vote for Trump? Everybody’s wrestling with what is this doing to our communities? And then we’re about to enter into, well, we’re already entering into Black Lives Matter movements. We’re entering into a reckoning with racial and gender justice in the church and then the pandemic is about to happen. And I felt like Roxburgh, I’d read lots on race, I’d read lots on critical theory. What Roxburgh did though was give me a historical accounting that I felt was so helpful to hold those things together. It was like, I mean to do contextual theology and then to give tools, which is Fitch does this very well too, but to give tools about engaging in the neighborhood really well, and I loved the level of rigor that Roxburgh required. So Roxboro was also my supervisor on my thesis and I loved working with him again, which I was warned against it. People were like, “he’s really intense.” I was just grateful. I was like, He sent my proposal back to me like fourteen times though that’s not even an exaggeration. It just kept coming back again. I felt pretty grateful for.

I’m still really proud of my thesis in the end, but that was my favorite class maybe by far.

Luke Stehr:

That’s awesome. So for people who maybe have never thought about contextual theology, have never read anything by Alan Roxburgh, how would you give a Cliff Notes version of his accounting of history that you referenced?

Jonny Morrison:

That’s a good question. So Roxburgh’s work is broad and I think that you could, there’s a lot of things that he’s talking about, but a lot of what he is wrestling with is the leadership structures of churches and maybe you could say the corporatization of local churches and the professionalization of clergy and how did clergy become sort of a management class versus stewards of the spirit. And that’s I think so much of his work if I was to simplify it is about that, like, when did seminary become about training managers and executors versus training midwives and artisans? And one of the languages is detectives of Divinity Roxburgh’s also a real poetic, which I’m such a sucker for. And so that’s so much of his work and I found that that’s ended up being what I wrote on in my own thesis is that was the exact question I was wrestling with in our local context is why did we have the imagination for pastoral leadership that we did and what were the other options available to us?

Gino Curcuruto:

I want to dig,

Question into ask.

Luke Stehr:

That was a beautiful answer to that question.

Gino Curcuruto:

Beautiful. I do want to get into a little bit more about your thesis, but first, if it’s okay, I kind of want to hang out in this Roxburgh space.

Jonny Morrison:

I’m happy, I love it.

Gino Curcuruto:

It it’s, it’s great timing. That was our last seminar and so full disclosure,

Luke Stehr:

We’re working on our papers for him,

Gino Curcuruto:

We’re working on our papers. He also

Luke Stehr:

Subscribes to this, so if you’re listening, Dr. Roxburgh have mercy on us.

Gino Curcuruto:

I found his class very similar. It was fantastic. And his ability to just put any, he was just asking us what’s on your mind? What are you experiencing is what it felt like. Then he would just go back in history and bring us up to the current time, whatever the subject was. The breadth of his knowledge and his ability to put it inside of a narrative like you’ve said was amazing. I’m also thinking that if you’re not thinking as a contextual theologian, you may totally miss the value of what he’s doing as just a guy telling stories.

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah.

Gino Curcuruto:

Does that make sense? Yeah.

Jonny Morrison:

Oh,

Gino Curcuruto:

Totally.

Jonny Morrison:

It’s almost like a history class if you don’t understand contextual theology.

Gino Curcuruto:

And because he’s a more seasoned, experienced theologian and philosopher, it’s just like, here’s the old guy telling us stories from the old days, but that’s not at all what he’s doing and his ability to give us maps for things and be poetic. And so I’m not sitting here just trying to compliment Al Roxburgh, though I will. I was just going to say, I think that the idea of it being contextual theology that he’s inside of what he’s doing, his leadership teaching is really important and I think that some people, I won’t speak for anyone in our class, but I’d wonder if historically through this, if there have been people that have missed that and just thought, “That class was just a bunch of stories. Let’s move on to the next one.”

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense. I think that people, when we did the cohort, I remember people wrestling with his reading list. It was, I don’t know if it’s the same list, but you had books like Cosmopolis and you had some other ones that were sort of narrative historical accountings of the philosophical moment that we find ourselves in. And I think people often wrestled with, this is not kind of as you named, it’s not straight theology and it’s not even about our moment. And so then I think people were like, “Well, what does this have to do with now?” But I do feel like Roxburgh was giving us a map of all the wilderness spaces sort of around the moment so that we could kind of find our way and understand how we got to where we are. And again, I found myself so dependent and so thankful for his work and for Cosmopolis is the one that comes to my mind. I referenced it a ton in my thesis to understand how we got to the modern moment and then the bibliography shaped so much of my later research and reading and even the paper that I wrote for that class, which was probably fine, but it had such an impact on my thesis later where I don’t know that many of the other papers I wrote so directly impacted it.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, that’s good. I think he has updated the list a little bit, but I happen to be familiar with that book from another class that I took and had to read. So that Cosmopolis is great, but I could imagine if that’s the book and you’re doing a history of philosophical thought into modernity that you’re going, “Where’s the theology bro? What are we doing here?”

Jonny Morrison:

What was the other one? I probably have it somewhere. It was something at the eye and it was about the, I remember it was such a large part of it was about the development of grid systems in Europe and roadways. Do you have it?

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes. Seeing Like a State

Luke Stehr:

We we’re talking about Seeing Like a Stat which basically the premise if you don’t want to read this book, which you should, is basically clarity only exists for the people at the top of hierarchies.

Jonny Morrison:

Yes.

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s a great summary.

Jonny Morrison:

That’s a great summary. That’s what I don’t know. I loved it. I loved that class. I think even the reading was like you are wrestling with something. You’re like, I’ve never, my seminary experience maybe didn’t bring me these resources, but they just felt so shaping and helpful and clarifying to, again, leadership structures in the local church. I mean especially in 2017, 2018, what I was witnessing politically around me, it felt like such tools to make sense of the world.

Gino Curcuruto:

Guys, this is totally a tangent, but I love that book. Seeing Like a State, it was so helpful. And then I read an essay from Stanley Hauerwas, here we go. It’s not a podcast with me if I haven’t mentioned Hauerwas, and it’s called an essay. He wrote “How Not to be a Political Theologian” and he references one of the author’s other books about being an anarchist as a way of entering into being a Christian political theologian. Anyway, we’re already in the weeds, but I just want to tell you, I would’ve never even known who that was if it wasn’t for Al Roxburgh. So I understood the conversation because without reading, this

Jonny Morrison:

Podcast has just become an Al Roxburgh fan club, which I’m here for

Luke Stehr:

Me too. But as we think we keep talking about contextual theology, I’m aware that someone who just stumbles on this may not have a clear framework for what that is. They may have heard of systematic theology or they may not know that theology and biblical studies are even different disciplines. So for you, Johnny, how do you just when someone’s like, oh, you got a degree in contextual theology, what’s that? What do you say?

Jonny Morrison:

That’s a good question. I’m still working on my elevator answer to that question.

Luke Stehr:

Me too, so I’m trying to steal yours.

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah, we’ll do this together. We’ll workshop it together. I like to try to explain it as theology that takes two very serious convictions with it, which is that we stand in line with a tradition and we speak to a place. And so I feel like it’s theology that’s in conversation with two different groups of people. And then we could add so many other dimensions like the living spirit of God, but my community matters to the theological work that I’m doing and the place that we all come from matters to the theological work that I’m doing. And so a good example of this is we’ve done a lot of work in our community around atonement because a lot of our folks come from evangelical-ish environments where penal substitutionary atonement is the only atonement theology. And so what I’m trying to do with them in that moment is actually less about penal substitutionary atonement.

It’s specifically and more about the contextual theology that got us there and why in evangelical churches, that’s the only atonement theology that you’ve ever heard of, even though church history has many options, and these are contextual theologies, like Luther is developing penal substituionary atonement where the reformers are to deal with contextual realities and does that help us engage with our contextual reality? So I feel like I’m using this all the time and it’s like where we came from, where we are having a dialogue between those spaces. I know that’s less complicated than Fitch’s contextual theology graph that I never could understand exactly, but that’s the way I would summarize it.

Gino Curcuruto:

That’s fantastic.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah, it is. Well, I think it’s so helpful too as we think about contextual theology, one of the kind of affirmations of the discipline is that all theology is inherently contextual. And so when I think about it, when I talk to people about it, I talk about the earliest Christological statements that make use of Greco-Roman philosophical terminology to explain Christ. Those are contextual theological choices. They’re using language, cultural images of the time in order to explain the theological concept.,

So all theology is contextual. So how do we make sense of the cultural factors both then and now? I think that’s a really helpful way. So let’s talk atonement, cause you’re in it. You’ve written books on it, you think about it a lot. So as you think about kind of on the ground theologically, how do you do a contextual theology of atonement for now and for the location you find yourself in?

Jonny Morrison:

That’s a great question. That’s a great question. Yeah. I’m sort of obsessed with atonement and I’m getting more obsessed with atonement. And I think it is actually for contextual reasons. I mean there’s the Christian reasons like the saving significance of the cross for my own sake and there’s being a pastor and all that. But I think contextually it’s so important because the cross for my people, and I imagine this is true for so many people who are listening in their churches, is often a symbol of how terrifying God is, not how loving God is.

And so then I feel like that’s what started to make me obsessed with this thing is the very central symbol in work and act of our cross. When I would do contextual work, listening to our people, having those conversations, sitting down with folks who come from a myriad of traditions. I’m in Utah, so we have former LDS people, we have Catholics, we have Evangelicals, Baptist, Presbyterians, Methodism, everybody’s kind of forming here. And I’m hearing that story consistently. So that’s what made me obsessed was the initial contextual work of why does this symbol that John says in 1 John 4 is the revelation of the love of God. Why does it invoke such terror in our community? And so maybe the first part of that is a contextual theological read of our community is that the cross is a kind of a wound point for us.

Then the thing that I did next and I’m doing with our community actively, and I’m writing about this on my substack a lot, shameless plug there is I’m trying to do a historical survey of atonement theology to introduce a bit of epistemic curiosity to our community who have never heard that there is other atonement theologies. I’m not even trying to take shots at PSA in this work. I’ve done that other places. I’m almost trying to level the playing field though and to be like, “do you know that the early church didn’t hold to PSA?” All the writing around the early church is a theory that looks far more like recapitulation theory thanks to St. Irenaeus and it’s narrative and it’s embodied and it’s participatory. And then you get to ransom and Christus Victor models, and again, sin is debt and guilt are way less significant parts of that narrative than they are around bondage, enslavement, forces of evil. And you’re like Joel Green, the theologian, talks about a kaleidoscopic view of atonement. If that’s all I could give you that would be beautiful, cause you’d have a bigger view of atonement, and I think that’s a contextual work. It’s absolutely contextualizing all of it together. So that’s a long answer.

Gino Curcuruto:

No, that’s good. I want to keep going, but I want to just interject some of my own story in this and have you kind of riff on this. So I didn’t grow up in the church right before I turned 30, I became a follower of Jesus, spent eight years in a church that was very much like Reform Baptist kind of thing. And so I say all that to narrate this moment. It was the moment when I realized that the church did not begin 500 years ago and what that meant for my atonement theory, I was simultaneously, and maybe this is something that is very prevalent in your context, it is in mine as well. I was simultaneously really pissed off and more excited about Jesus than I’d ever been ever. But I didn’t have a map of where to go. And then I was trying to as a wasn’t a theologian at the time, I was working as a chiropractor and I’m a dad. I’m like, what do I study? What do I do? And so I know you’ve probably wrestled through this. I’m not asking you to tell me what’s the best resources, but if I’m the person in your congregation, if I represent anything like that, and you’re developing these contextual theology around atonement of atonement theories, I understand what you just said is really helpful to that. But maybe dig in a little bit deeper with someone with that kind of story if you could.

Jonny Morrison:

So something I have found really effective because been doing so our community is so similar, Gino, to what you just said, we can get to this later, but Missio Dei, the Church that I pastor is a church plant of a church called Imago Dei in Portland, Oregon. Imago Dei is the very first Acts 29 church plant. So we are Driscoll’s great grandchildren in a sick twisted universe. And so that is our story. So let’s just talk about contextual work. And we were always different because Imago leaves A29 before it kind of becomes a really big movement around the issues of women in ministry. It wants to ordain women in ministry, not as elders, but as pastors, and they leave over a very specific woman, my co-pastor. It’s not like an abstract conversation, it’s about does Heather Thomas get ordained and now she’s my co-lead pastor. So again, we’re deep in the world of contextual, but it means that so many people from that community come with that neo reformed atonement. Almost like in my thesis, I describe it as an evangelical emerging and neo reformed perspective because a kind of deconstruction that’s happening, there’s an aesthetic of questioning and then a really reformed foundation that you’ll run into eventually. So all that to say that’s exactly what they come with.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah.

Jonny Morrison:

So one of the things that we have found really helpful in that is to try and get to the root of what atonement is and see it as a banquet table with many dishes on it. And we have been fed basically only one dish for many years. For 500 years we’ve all been kind of really honing in on roast chicken and that’s PSA and is it good? Totally. It’s fine. We could prepare it a little differently, absolutely. But there’s actually lots of other dishes on the table and atonement is the full table. The phrase atonement is an invention of a word by William Tyndale when he is translating his English Bible to make sense of this complicated Hebraic and New Testament context, boom, contextual theology. And he invents a word to try to translate that to his context by taking the phrases at one and mint and putting it together to express what the cross does.

And we found this really effective in our community to be like at the very foundation, the table that is laid is a story about how the cross makes us one with God and one another. And this is actually what we all agree on Greek Orthodox Catholics, protestants of almost every stripe. That’s actually the thing that we sort of agree on. Now we get real fighty as soon as we come out of that and that’s fine, but can we get back to that foundation? And I found that with our folks who come out of that reforms perspective, that’s almost like a bit of a safety raft, which is like, okay,

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah

Jonny Morrison:

This is what scripture says the cross does, and that gives me enough room to start to look at the rest of the dishes that are on the banquet and see how they’re a part of that at-one-ment story.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, yeah, that’s so helpful because to me that sounds like something that’s true all the way through and opens up space to leading to some unwinding as Fitch might say, of some of the things. Because I would say that when you eat that particular roast chicken all the time, it has particular effects on your emotional health and physical health in certain ways. Don’t want to stretch out the metaphor so it becomes unusable. We don’t have to go there, but I just say that it’s really interesting when you’re not saying no to that, but you’re saying yes, and which is what I find that as I’m interviewing people and talking to people, that’s what contextual theologians seem to say more than any other Christians that I know is like, yes. And have you heard the other person’s story? Have you heard this story? Let’s take that all into account.

Jonny Morrison:

Well, I think we go back to that definition of contextual theology, which is you do theology in a place and that isn’t abstract. These are your people. And I dunno, you can condescend them all you want to in your head, but that doesn’t help you do anything with them. It doesn’t help you do life with them. And people with deeply held PSA convictions and other really reformed or Southern Baptist convictions are in your church or I dunno, if you’re doing church in a Jesus centered way, they should be. And if they’re not, you actually have some other contextual questions to ask yourself. And I think I found it didn’t help my own heart to see them contemptuously. And so at some point I had to take responsibility as maybe this is another Roxburgh term, is it an artisan of a new humanity? I didn’t take that responsibility serious and be like, if I can dream something, I have to include them in the dream and I don’t get to reject them. I’m responsible for them also, not in a paternalistic way, but just like, this is my home, this is my people,

Luke Stehr:

Yeah. There’s a commitment there and I think that’s the stability that Roxburgh would write about. And so many others have written about stability in those cases too. And I don’t know if you’ve read his latest book, I think it was certainly a kind of cornerstone of our conversations in January when we had him. But yeah, it is that stability piece of like this is the people and this is who you have to work with. So

Jonny Morrison:

Whether we like it or not,

Luke Stehr:

Unless you’re my church members, in which case I love you every day.

Jonny Morrison:

That’s right.

Luke Stehr:

But yeah, and I think that’s just an amazing way to frame it. I think for everyone that atonement is this table and there’s so many dishes on it. Are there, I think there obviously the different atonement theories come out of different cultural moments. Do you feel that there is maybe one or two atonement stories? I think that’s how James William McClendon frames them. He calls them atonement stories, not theories. Are there one or two atonement stories that fit our cultural moment better or in a really hyper-local sense? Your context in Salt Lake City better?

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah. Oh, what a great question. That’s so fun. I am becoming a bit obsessed with recapitulation theory, which is one of the earliest known church theories. We associate moth with St. Irenaeus who is a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. So there’s good reason to value this theory way back. It goes way back and it may represent something that looks like what the early church was articulating to one another. One. I just find it beautiful because it’s an atonement theology that incorporates incarnation to ascension and Pentecost and second coming for sure. But we’re just like, we got to frame it somewhere because the whole thing is about incorporation into the story of Jesus or into the life of Jesus. Irenaeus doesn’t use story language, but I think contextualizing it to our modern world story is maybe the most helpful way to think about it. But it is this notion that Christ is the new Adam who there’s a substitutionary component there, a solidarity component there who lives the story humanity was always meant to so that humanity can then re-participate and that story is recapitulated in Christ. So then there’s this heavy participatory element to that atonement theory, which I find in our context, and I would imagine true in many other people’s context is so empowering because one, the cross has been often framed in western spaces as a one time event. But Irenaeus is saying that the life of Christ is an ongoing invitation for all of us to participate in something, to pick up our cross, to join the new humanity, to live a renewed story. It’s like Christ is Aragorn where humanity had been Isildur and in the Aragorn rejection of the power of the ring on the cross also, we get to be participants in new Gondor. We get to live a new kingdom. And I find that so compelling. Irenaeus also talks a lot about healing and healing of wounds,

Which he’s way before a trauma-informed atonement theology, but that is what he’s speaking about is that the fall, he calls it the old wound, which I just think is so beautiful in that humanity is arrested in their development. He’s so sophisticated for a dude who’s writing in the second and third century and that in the story of Christ we get to a development is freed so that we can be mature and whole and flourishing. And I know again, contextually I think that has so much power to people who want so much more I think in life than what is offered to them.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yeah, yeah. They see, I’m sorry Luke, do you want to go?

Luke Stehr:

Go for it man.

Gino Curcuruto:

I was thinking about the opportunities that I have to spend time. I teach inside a prison theology and Bible inside a prison, and then just friends that I have that are in recovery after addiction and maybe aren’t familiar with the term recapitulation, but are absolutely pursuing a new story. And the connecting point that is so valuable is saying like, Hey, the people of God, the people that are created are always walking in a story that has a starting point before them and many of us don’t do it well, but what would it look like to actually consent to someone else incorporating you into a better story in some way or living it out or So even that healing idea of atonement that there is a true and greater atom who did it in a way without flaw and then gives you a blood transfusion in a sense to heal not only your infection of sin, but also to give you renewed life in a new way. I love that. Also, the last thing is I never hear a church named Recapitulation Church. We got Redeemer, Renewal, all of these churches, but there’s an R word that the church has not really latched onto, so maybe your work will do it.

Jonny Morrison:

Maybe our people are already confused enough about our church’s name being Missio Dei. I don’t know that we need to add another level of complexity and theological nuance to our church naming.

Luke Stehr:

Valid. Oh man. Some of the things I think about as you’re preaching, as you’re teaching, as you’re helping people understand the ins and outs of recapitulation theory, like you’re talking to a person in your church who’s like, “how do I talk about this with my friends who don’t know Jesus?” Or you’re in Salt Lake City, so it’s safe to assume your people are bumping into a lot of Mormons. How do you teach people to talk about recapitulation theory and just a natural not Irenaeus kind of way?

Jonny Morrison:

Yeah, I’ve, other than when doing a historical survey of atonement theories, I dunno that I’ve ever used the word recapitulation on stage. So that’s maybe the first

Luke Stehr:

That’s probably wise.

Jonny Morrison:

And we do a lot of preaching training in our community and have invested in this a lot. And so high value for me is to strip our language of religious veneer, jargon or Christianese, and this is true, I think everybody should do this, but Utah is a fascinating context in that. So we’re in Salt Lake City. Salt Lake is, I think

It is quite a progressive city. People often think about it as maybe like Utah itself, but it’s better thought of as Austin in Texas. It’s a city in rebellion to the conservatism of the state around it. And so we were the 12th city to legalize gay marriage back in 2008, and then our governor vetoed it at the time. So then our state was, it only became legal when it became federal. So that’s our state’s tension all the time. And I think we were one of the first cities in the United States have a queer mayor. So there’s this real progressivism in the city that’s always budding against conservatism, but it’s a progressivism, all that to say that is shaped by a post-Mormon religious context, not a post-evangelical or post-Catholic or post-mainline. And that already sets us up into a fascinating dynamic. And then the city is populated by so many transplants.

Like many cities, young people want to live there, they want to be there. There’s a college, a big college, and then we’re an outdoor state. And so many young people move to Utah, take their first major job or second major career job because they want to ski and they want to hike and they want fish and whatever. So I say all of that to say that Missio is a community that is shaped by that religious heritage, like post Mormons who have deconstructed Mormonism evangelicals who have deconstructed evangelicalism, folks who moved here and couldn’t find a Catholic church, and we were the most liturgical thing around. So they started coming to us. That’s the strange dynamic of the community. And even my staff is a really good example of this. I grew up Pentecostal, found anabaptism in college. I’m like a Pentecostal Anabaptist. And then solid, my co-pastor Heather grew up in a tiny Anglican church in England and then helped plant an emerging neo reform church. And then it’s here today, our third pastor is a 62-year-old retired Presbyterian USA pastor, and then my staff is Foursquare folks. They’re all over the place like megachurch folks who, so I say all that to say is a long answer to say that I really want us to use language that cuts through tradition because you cannot assume that people in the room understand the word the same way you do.

And so that’s why we’ve done so much work around atonement in part is like what do we mean when we use the word atonement? What are we saying when we talk about the cross? What do we believe the cross is accomplishing? And at its most basic, at its most foundational, and one of the things that we talk about a lot, this is where I’ll close, is that so John talks about this is in the letter from John 4, 1 John 4, he talks about how this is how we know what love is that God sent his son to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. And then he goes on to say, God is love. So this is the primary way that we would talk about atonement is that the way in which scripture describes to us atonement is that it is the great reveal of God’s love. It’s not the only reveal, but it is the perfect snapshot of God’s love for us. And so then everything else we understand has to have that Jesusy other oriented sacrificial love on it. What the scripture says is the primary reveal. And for us that’s so important because Mormons have a very unique understanding of who Jesus is. But evangelicals, Baptist Presbyterians, we all bring that, and so it’s like what holds us, and it’s like the cross reveals that God is like Jesus, and that’s going to be our big atonement crux. So there’s lots of other things I can say there, but I just feel like I talked to you for 30 minutes.

Gino Curcuruto:

No, that was great. You really had me at just the idea of staying away from certain language so that you could communicate well, and I was just thinking about how much of our work is translation in so many ways and just listening to how you are thoughtfully going about doing that was just a real encouragement to me. So I was just listening. You could go longer as far as I’m concerned. That was really helpful.

Oh, thank you.

Luke Stehr:

I’d be okay with that.

Jonny Morrison:

It’s interesting. I’d be interested to hear you guys’ thoughts on this. Translation is also an interesting work because doing contextual theology with people who are religious, there’s a kind of way in which they want certain religious words used also. And so one of the things I’ve had to learn in this work is that the pushback is sometimes that we don’t use the religious word enough, and so then because they don’t hear the symbol that represents a whole world of meaning behind it, all that front stage backstage stuff, you guys did that with Roxburgh, they don’t hear the front stage performance that indicates all that. Then they’re like, oh, you’re not actually talking about sin. That’s the big one. If I talk about wounding and trauma and systemic injustice or racism, but I never used the word sin, then they’re like, oh, you didn’t talk about sin at all. These all good stuff, but where’s sin and where’s the cross. And you’re like, yeah. You’re like, oh no.

Gino Curcuruto:

Yes, I can relate to that particularly around that word sin of, but also maybe this is another episode, but even my own personal Anabaptist non-violence kind of convictions that I’ve had multiple conversations with people that visit on a Sunday and they’re like, I love this church, but I’m really uncomfortable with the non-violence. I’m trying to understand what that means. You want me to be more violent? You are not a violent anyway. Let’s just stick to the sin one maybe. Yes. That’s a’s something about it makes me question whether people are listening for the symbolic gestures to what they already believe or are listening to the thought. What I hope is a thoughtful presentation on how we’re bringing joining with the spirit together and using language. So it’s not that Johnny and I are pro sin and we’re just going to keep it under wraps by not using the word, we’re just trying to use language that moves away from individual guilt as the only imagination for what sin might be. Is that a fair assessment?

Luke Stehr:

Yeah, I think that sounds fair. And as I’m listening, as I’m thinking, I think people are looking for these theological signifying words. I think in the American development of Protestantism, once you start moving past Appalachia and into the frontier, I mean churches were not elaborate spaces. They were pretty simple structures. And there’s almost a virtue once you get past the east coast of a simplicity and architecture in particularly Protestant life. And so in the absence, if you’re a Roman Catholic, you’re going to walk into a Catholic church or an Anglican church even, or an Episcopal church and you’re going to walk in, you’re going to see stained glass, you’re going to see a baptistry font as you come in. Maybe there’s going to be a certain layout out to the architecture that’s actually going to let you know that you’ve entered a certain kind of theological space where your theological expectations will be met. And this is, I think, true across Catholicism. For one of the classes we took with Mulder, I went to a Vietnamese Catholic church in town, and even at this super Vietnamese Catholic church, I walk in, it looks very Vietnamese, but I know that I’m in a Catholic church. Well, Protestants don’t have that kind of defining visible architecture. So I think in the absence of that, particularly in our emphasis on the spoken word as the main component of worship, we rely on those signifying words to let us know that we’ve,

Gino Curcuruto:

But we just lost your Mic, but I was going to say that as Luke’s saying that he’s going to come right back on here. There. Yeah, there you are. I’m sorry, Luke. I was just going to say that I think that’s really important because what I should have said also is that it’s not wrong for people to want to have those signifiers because of what it means for them, right? Contextually is I need to know that I’m safe here. And most of us, we don’t have those other symbolic gestures other than our words, especially in Protestant spaces, and most of us, including myself, are too impatient to have the time to hear each other out, for lack of a better term.

Jonny Morrison:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I would be interested, Luke, to tap in on what you just named and hear what you guys think about this. So I want to present a theory, like a contextual theological theory to you about the future of the church and have you dialogue with me about it. So I think that what you just named is so true about spaces feeling like churches, and I think that will become more important to a de-churched people, not less, and I think that the missional, I love the missional movement, but its emphasis on home spaces misses this pretty large that my Gen Z friends who come to church are very nervous to just show up at a home. They actually really want a religious space as the first place to welcome into and to clearly see it as a religious space, and so for Missio, but they want to do, okay, maybe one more point add this.

So they want to do it in a way that is maybe stripped of some of its baggage. So this is the trick. I think that has to be the line that has to be walked. So Missy, our church, our space has a very specific design to it that is meant to do some of the things that you just named Luke. So our room has a really long communion table down the middle of it that’s always there. We do communion every single week, and that is the center of our space. Then we do have a stage, the play, kind of like the orientation of word, and then on its left side is a baptismal font that’s always there. It on its right side is a prayer station which forms across, so there’s a cruciform nature to the space. The chairs are oriented, so they’re kind of angled towards one another, which is again, so that there’s a participatory element, and then the design of the stage is very simple, but it’s all this geometric shaped hardwood because we are in a warehouse, but we’re in a warehouse in which the presence of God is.

And so we have the sense that God redeems spaces, but makes them fully what they’re supposed to be, not less than they were supposed to be. Then there’s the lobby, and then the lobby faces a big prayer chapel, which has big glass windows, that same geometric shaping, and then a view of the window that we exist for, or a window that shows the city that we exist for the city. We built the building, you had a view of the capitol, and then immediately afterwards a parking garage went up. So now we have a view of a parking garage and apartment buildings. So all to say something about that, that’s our space. And thankfully more apartments have gone up in front of the parking garage. It was, we built the space and it was finished in 2015 for a full year, had this beautiful view of the capitol and it was like, ah, so cool. We’re praying for the city. And then end of 2015, the parking garage starts going up and we’re like, no, it’s just big concrete six story edifice or whatever. But all that to say, so we’ve alluded to your point, we have tried as a contextual experiment to be very deliberate about the design of our space. Our services are actually quite liturgical while being, we would say our tradition is Anabaptist, charismatic liturgical, those three streams sort of shape the feel and texture of our church. And so I’d be interested, yeah, this is like here’s our experiment, and I’m putting on the table in front of you is our contextual theological church planting pastoring experiment that we’re trying to do. I think it’s the future of the church. That’s my premise.

Luke Stehr:

Yeah, no, I think you’re right on the money. I think the first thing that came to mind is the success of Knives Out: Wake Up Dead Man just had this huge cultural moment, and it’s such an overtly religious film, but it’s Rian Johnson is not religious. He grew up religious, he grew up Christian, but he’s not anymore, but just makes this profoundly religious film. And so I think people actually want to feel that. I think there’s a Canadian author, and I can’t remember the name, but I think it’s like Wisdom from Babylon or Wisdom from Exile, something like that. But one of the things he talks about and argues for is that as we move into these increasingly post-Christian environments, which are only going to increase, even hearing heard Ed Stetzer speak two weeks ago, but even he was very explicitly clear revival is not happening, which so to hear Stetzer say that the decline is only going to continue people, but in that kind of cultural environment, people actually want to know what the feeling is.

I live in a context where Islam is growing pretty quickly, so I think I’m in the heart of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex in my city alone. We’re the third largest city in the metro. There are five mosques and the first Spanish language mosque opened in Fort Worth, and so Islam is growing, but you know that you’ve gone to a mosque. There’s no doubt about the space that you’ve entered into what’s happening there. I think people actually desire some sort of tactility to a space. I think in a time when people actually don’t know the narrative of scripture, don’t know the theological language, the words as signifiers of tribe or identity don’t mean anything, and you could argue that we’re moving into a post-literate society or whatever, but there’s a reason people started using stained glass and used statues and used art in religious spaces, and it’s because it communicated it was the signifier of the kind of space you had come into.

And so I think that’s only going to become more essential. I think routine practices of communion, regardless of your tradition. I’m at a Baptist church when I came, we were doing quarterly. I made a push. We moved to monthly, and I feel really good about that. I’d love to do it more because it’s the most concrete and tangible expression of what happens in atonement that you can do week over week. And so even if you’re preaching some bonkers passage out of Haggai, you’re still going to do communion and you’re still going to convey what happens in a really tangible way that makes sense narratively, but maybe in a way that’s not necessarily aimed at a literate sense of meaning.

Jonny Morrison: