Sushmita and I cover the identity politics of slow fashion, unequal access to ethically made clothing, and how Sushmita is ready to be gentler with herself.

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

You're listening to Intuitive Style, where we believe everyone has style. In conversation with fantastic guests, we explore how to tap into our style intuition so that we can dress authentically and live fully.

Today's guest, Sushmita , is the writer and artist behind Ethical Fat Fashion . She's well known for her size-inclusive ethical fashion brand directory, zines, and fashion/political commentary.

Welcome to the show, Sushmita!

Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen. It's so nice!

Maureen: Yay! Yes, I'm so happy that you decided to come on.

To kick things off, I love the mission behind your newsletter, Ethical Fat Fashion. For anyone unfamiliar, can you share what EFF is all about?

Sushmita: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's been a few years, and I'm still figuring it out, but Ethical Fat Fashion started off as a brand directory. This was 2021, 2022. I was sourcing size-inclusive and size-diverse brands—brands that started from a 2X or a US 20. From there, I switched to Patreon and started making digital zines, exploring a whole host of different issues. I was talking about body image, movie reviews—anything and everything I wanted to put in there, I did.

That eventually brought me to Substack last year. I wanted something more frequent. The zines were seasonal, but now I post every single week, and the content changes all the time. The thread running through it is the idea of ethical fashion, but I’m looking at it from different angles—especially how our bodies and fashion connect, including how we view ourselves and how that affects how we dress.

Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s so true. And I certainly experience this as a writer on Substack myself—it can be hard to pin down into one thing. But that can also be the fun of it!

We're allowed to explore different aspects of who we are and of a particular topic, and I think you manage that really well.

In one of your more recent posts, you compared slow fashion to diet culture (aware of Virginia Sole-Smith), which really resonated with me—especially how you acknowledge the reality that participating in slow fashion has been elevated to a high moral status while simultaneously excluding so many people, particularly fat people.

What compelled you to write this post at this time?

Sushmita: These are really scary posts to put on the internet—especially in leftist spaces, where everybody is aiming for this moral purity. If you add any kind of complexity, you can become a target.

I was scared to write about it, but I think Substack allows for long-form content rather than just 140 characters or less. It lets us balance perspectives.

Hopefully, I was able to separate the idea of fashion justice from what we see as "sustainability" or "slow fashion" as a brand or an identity—because those are two very different things.

Fashion justice is about better conditions for garment workers and ensuring they have living wages. I don’t think anyone is against that. I really don’t. But the means to achieve that—the current slow fashion or ethical fashion movement—has such a heavy focus on consumerism. It’s become identity-focused rather than actually looking at how we can achieve that outcome.

I wrote this post after a series of revelations over the last couple of years. I started to feel more separated from the narratives that kept being repeated on the internet.

One of the big shifts for me was material envy, which I talk about a lot. I saw someone very prominent in the space admit how much they owned, and I realized I owned maybe a quarter of that. The difference between our wardrobes was startling, and I had this feeling inside me—why can’t I have that abundance? Why am I not deserving of beautiful clothes?

Another shift was recognizing the difference between identity and outcome. We're not really having conversations about how we can help garment workers. And I include myself in this—we, as consumers, have taken over the conversation. It’s almost a saviorism narrative: We in the Global North are going to help these poor garment workers.

Maureen: Yeah, yeah.

Sushmita: But the reality is that garment workers are already trying their absolute hardest to advocate for themselves. That’s why trade unions exist.

Many of them are dealing with governments that, even if they have laws in place to protect workers—especially women—those laws aren’t effective. Sexual harassment in factories is a huge issue, and we, as consumers, cannot fix that just by buying differently. We are not in the factories. We cannot protect these workers simply through buying differently.

Maureen: I'm getting chills.

Sushmita: Yeah.

Maureen: I so agree. I did not mean to cut you off, though!

Sushmita: No, no, it’s totally fine. It’s a conversation! But a lot of these things I haven’t said out loud before, so I’m still forming these thoughts as I speak.

I just feel like we’ve created this belief that we can buy our way into saving garment workers. And I don’t connect with that narrative anymore. Instead, I’m thinking about what actions we can take beyond consumerism to support garment workers.

One thing that’s been on my mind is that, due to the new [United States] administration, one of the key trade alliances in Bangladesh, Awaj Foundation, lost 20 to 30% of their funding. We could directly give them money.

That would be more powerful than tweeting or posting online, shaming other people about their consumerism.

Maureen: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes.

We’re so aligned, and this is part of the reason I wanted to have you on the show right now.

I’ve been a consumer of slow fashion content for a long time, and I think the early voices in this space raised important issues. They brought awareness to things people didn’t know about.

And to their credit, a lot of work has gone into that awareness—helping us be more conscious of what we buy and why.

But I also think it’s gone too far, to your point. It’s become about identity rather than outcome.

I would love to hear you talk more about the identity of being a "slow fashion person." Why do you think that has resonated so much with creators?

Sushmita: I think it follows what we already see in leftist spaces, where our identities become the whole of us.

For me, the biggest issue is this all-or-nothing thinking. Either you’re buying ethically, or you’re not. Either you’re a "reformed shopper," or you’re not. There’s no in-between.

I struggled with my own consumerism because I couldn’t afford the things I wanted to buy, and I didn’t give myself any grace.

I had spent years building a platform against fast fashion, and unfortunately, the majority of the fashion industry—99% of it—still operates with fast fashion tactics. Maybe not at the same production scale, but there’s still a lot of opaqueness.

It’s really difficult to be a responsible consumer.

And I wouldn’t allow myself to step outside of those boundaries. I had all these limitations. I still have these limitations.

But I was so scared of tarnishing my identity as someone who promotes ethical fashion.

And yet, the whole concept of ethical fashion is actually very, very complicated. People want you to believe that being a responsible consumer is so damn easy. It's just about, you know, choosing the right brand. And now that I've been in this space for a really long time, I’ve been contacting brands that claim to be size diverse or care about inclusivity or sustainability.

There are brands that use socially audited factories and have longstanding relationships with their factories, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they pay living wages. There are small businesses that have zero relationship to their makers. I’ve reached out to them, and they’ll be like, “No, we have no idea which factory we produce at.”

And there's just so much ethics-washing. There's small-business-washing as well. There are brands that are obviously a lot larger than they make themselves out to be. And it's absolutely impossible to always make the right decision when businesses themselves are not being transparent with consumers. A lot of these businesses actually say that they’re ethical or sustainable, but nobody really wants to talk about that aspect.

So not only is it difficult to be responsible when it comes to not buying from 99% of fashion, but it's also difficult when you are only buying from ethical brands because ethical is not regulated.

Maureen: Right. It's like the word "organic" in the United States. What does organic mean? Okay, well, organic means that it’s made out of earth-created materials. [But] organic does not mean that you don’t use pesticides. So there’s this kind of—perhaps purposeful—opaqueness around what a term means, then you don’t have to define it and you don’t have to have restrictions to work within.

I also wanted to go back and validate something you said earlier, which was that writing that post was vulnerable and difficult, and I completely relate to that. I put up a post, I think around the same time that you did—like, I think it was the same week. We were just on the same wavelength.

Oh no, I responded to yours. I'm so sorry. I responded to yours.

Anyway, I put up a post like, There’s this narrative that it’s easy to shop ethically, and yet the reality is very far from that for so many people. Again, going back to this idea of an identity rather than an outcome.

I started looking into the data around fast fashion. People say, Consumers buy sixty-eight items of clothing every year. I can’t find the statistic or the background for that. There are so many things that impact our carbon footprint to begin with. And I know the term ethical doesn’t just mean sustainability—it doesn’t just encompass green practices—but when it is coming from a sustainability perspective, there’s this idea that not buying new clothing has this tremendous impact on your carbon footprint.

And I really don’t think that’s true. I think that not owning a car has a way bigger impact. And as you were saying earlier, not buying new clothing doesn’t mean that you’re actually supporting the garment workers you say you’re supporting.

I try to bring an empathetic perspective to everything I do. And I think maybe we’re just feeling very overwhelmed and powerless in a lot of systems that don’t really feel like they’re working in our best interest. So we ask, “What can I personally do? Oh, well, I get dressed every day. Why don’t I control and try to live my values through that?”

Which I think is great, but it’s also not the bigger picture. And for anyone who faces barriers with shopping that way, it can have a tremendously harmful effect. Like, Am I a bad person if I’m not shopping with my values? But when the companies that align with your values don’t make clothes for you, how can you reconcile that?

Guest: Yeah. That’s such an important topic. You have so many good points.

So I think one of the biggest things is: who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right? So we need to balance our energy. Yes, of course, we can make individual changes, but we also need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures—rather than placing it all on ourselves.

Who is actually creating the most environmental damage? We know that individuals collectively do make an impact, but it really is the biggest companies, right?….We need to be putting more pressure on companies that are just getting away with damaging our planet and our futures.

And I think the thing with identity is that it’s so easy to align your identity with certain behaviors when you’re in a place that makes it easy for you to do so. I could say, Hey, I don’t have a car, and I take public transport everywhere. Well, I live in the middle of Tokyo, where the public transport is amazing. But when I lived in the countryside in the UK, that was impossible.

And this is a little snarky, but there are people out there leading the Target boycott when they don’t even have Targets in their country. Like, it’s so easy to say, "Boycott Target" or "I don’t shop at Target," when you don’t even have Target where you live.

I get really frustrated when people place shame on others when they have access to things that make it so much easier to conform to a slow fashion or ethical fashion identity. And of course, the biggest thing is size inclusivity.

It’s hard for me because I feel like I’m constantly straddling both sides of the narrative. One side says, "There are no ethical size-inclusive options," which isn’t true—that’s why I created my directories. But then the other side says, "It’s so easy to buy ethically when you’re fat," and that’s simply not true either.

Yes, there are options, but they’re much more scarce than what other people have. And the main reason I created my directory was that the biggest sustainable directory out there had a plus-size section that started at an XL, but included sizes from different countries. An Australian XL, a Japanese XL, an Indian XL—these are all very different from a U.S. XL. Some of them aren’t plus-size at all.

So it was impossible to find your size using one of the biggest sustainable directories. It was not plus-size friendly at all. And so, I try to hold both of those narratives: Yes, these options exist, but it’s not easy. Right. You wrote this amazing piece about shame.

Maureen: Yeah, everything’s about shame.

Sushmita: And one of the things I was thinking is, shame does work—but only for people who have already taken on that identity and internalized it.

Fast fashion consumption—again, I don’t know about that sixty-eight-garment statistic, I couldn’t find the original source either—but I do know that fast fashion and ultra-fast fashion overconsumption is an issue.

But who is internalizing that shame? It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives. If anything, they’re like, "I’m sick of your moralizing. I just don’t care."

It’s a small group of people who are taking on the burden of individual responsibility, feeling the heaviness, shame, and guilt for the collective consumption. Meanwhile, the people actually overconsuming don’t care about these ethical fashion narratives.

So the question is: If this small group is carrying the shame, do we keep trying to reach out and convince people who clearly aren’t receptive? Or do we find other ways to bring about the change we want instead of focusing on shame?

Maureen: Yeah, exactly. How do we, as a slow fashion community, shift our narrative to show that we’re not doing this to make our lives worse? We’re not martyrs. We do this because we want to stay optimistic for the future.

And I think that’s where we need to be heading—toward a middle ground between "It’s super easy" and "It’s impossible."

Sushmita: For sure. I sometimes use these terms interchangeably, but there are differences between slow fashion, ethical fashion, and sustainable fashion. They do overlap, but I don’t follow the slow fashion philosophy. I want more, more, more.

For me, ethical fashion has always been the biggest focus—seeing it as a labor-centered movement and thinking about how we can mitigate harm and be more responsible consumers.

But the issue is, there are limitations to that for sure. And I think one of the things is that, you know, we have this idea in our mind of if we buy from small businesses in the US or the UK or Australia, they may be ethical, but they don't really have any tangible impact on garment workers in the global south. So those two behaviors are very separate. But in terms of turning away from shame and moving towards a different way of consumerism, I feel like there's so many possibilities and positive outcomes from buying from brands outside of the mainstream. I really connect with it because I like the fashion that's available. I love the textiles, the fashion that's coming out of India right now, the contemporary stuff. There's a lot of color. There's things that I really, really love. I think for me though is, when you're not rich or when you have other limitations, including size or geographical limitations, me living in Japan, sometimes it's just hard to, you know, buy what you need.

So there are some beautiful things out there, and I try to support those brands as often as I can. But there are things where I'm just like, Oh, I really wish that I had something warm for the winter that I didn't have to wait four months to arrive and that didn’t cost three to four times the amount plus the additional shipping. And I'm not saying that ethical brands are overpriced. They're not. But as a consumer, it's still hard to pay that kind of money, and I just wish that we would allow people more grace as consumers, especially within this very, very small group of early adopters who’ve taken on these new behaviors. I wish that it didn't have to be this kind of thing of like, you have to be perfect all the time. Otherwise, you no longer believe in the things that you believe.

Maureen: To that point, I would love to hear a little bit about... you had posted somewhat recently about trying to experience some more consumerism ease. Could you share a little bit more about some of the steps that you might take towards giving yourself that slack when it comes to buying clothes that align with your ethical values?

Sushmita:Yeah, I will. I think, again, it's really scary. It's like, it's almost like saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm stepping out of bounds." I'm afraid about, you know, how people will judge me. I went on to... this is completely unrelated, but before the consumerism ease, I went on to a podcast a few months ago and I had somebody email me. One of the things that they emailed me about was veganism and how important it was to them, and I found it really strange because I'm not vegan. I don’t talk about food in that way. And nothing that I said on that podcast was about food. But it was almost like, if you believe in this, then you should also believe in this. And they had put me into, I think, a box of like a perfect sustainable advocate, and that's not something that I align with at all. The only reason I said it was because I just get scared of doing things that fall out of those identity parameters and how I will be seen and how my body of work might be misaligned because I'm not towing that line perfectly.

But yeah, so in terms of the consumerism ease, one of the things is, people who are now reformed slow fashion advocates or ethical fashion advocates, they got a lot of time where they were able to over-consume and they got to find their style. And then all of a sudden overnight, they're like, Hey, not into that anymore. And you're a bad person if you still are. So they got that experience. Whilst for me, and I've spoken about this time and time again, my size and my economic situation changed very, very dramatically.

So, I didn’t over-consume fast fashion for a decade. I didn’t even really do anything with fashion. I just had my work outfits and then I had some comfy athleisure outfits, and that was it. I just had no opportunity. And so now that I'm trying to discover my style and connect with fashion, one of the things that has really come to light is that it takes work, and it doesn't always happen right away.

So, what I mean is when you make a purchase, it doesn't mean that that purchase is going to be completely amazing and suit you. So that's why I don't really think like, you know, if you only make five purchases a year, if you're fat or if, like, you know, for me, I'm also petite as well. Those limitations mean the chances are out of those five purchases, they're not all going to fit me in the way that I want.

And so the biggest ease that I've given myself is like, if I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore. I'm trying my best. I'm checking measurements carefully. Like, I'm doing what I can, and I think, I feel like I've internalized too much shame when it comes to making the wrong purchases.

If I thrift the wrong thing and it doesn't look good on me, or it doesn't fit the way that I want it to, I don't want to feel guilty anymore.

So in terms of not necessarily ethical consumerism, I actually have a really good example. Yesterday, I had planned to go to a community gym with one of my friends, and you need indoor shoes for gyms here so you have to change into sport shoes that haven't been worn outside, just to maintain a level of cleanliness. And I didn't realize that I needed those indoor shoes until very late the night before.

I was like, what am I going to do? Like, I can't order a pair of shoes online. They're not going to come in time. If I order a pair of sustainable shoes, they're going to be here in like, a month and a half. It's not gonna happen. I'm not financially prepared as well to make that, you know, investment when it comes to sports shoes from sustainable brands—like you're looking at a couple of hundred bucks. It's quite expensive.

So I decided to go to Don Quixote, if you know Don Quixote, in Japan. Don Quixote. It's like a megastore. And they're open very late. So some of them are open twenty-four hours. We had one that was half an hour from us that was open till 3am. I went to Don Quixote late at night. It was like ten o'clock at night to try and find a pair of indoor shoes. And yeah, so it was a very impulsive kind of purchase. I chose a brand that, for me, is very decent. It's a Japanese brand. But again, they're completely opaque. I don't think that they're ethical in terms of how their textile workers are treated. But it felt fine. I didn’t want to feel this additional layer of shame and guilt for not making the right decision under the circumstances.

Generally, when I talk about consumerism ease, I just want to be more gentle with myself. Like, I've always kind of said for other people that they should do what they can within their capacity and access level, but I just have never reserved that grace for myself. And yeah, I want more of that softness going forward because I feel like, you know, if all of us are making changes to some extent, rather than a few of us trying to follow this morally perfect path, it's going to be a lot more impactful and hopefully we'll also have more energy for the more important stuff.

I just want to be more gentle with myself

Maureen: I wanted to acknowledge both things at once, right? You do have an opportunity to bring that gentleness to yourself, and also, throughout this conversation and through your writing, it is so apparent that the judgment that you're experiencing is also external. And so, I do think that, when we can bring gentleness to ourselves, that's amazing. But also, like, I want to acknowledge that, for you, the fact that that's been a challenge to give yourself that... Sounds like it's coming from a rational place of like, there are people out there that will judge me and they will tell me.

And I just want to acknowledge that that sounds really difficult, and I definitely don't think you deserve that. I really hope that we as a creator community can at least provide that for each other if it's not coming from the audience.

And, if you ever are looking for grace, I mean, I certainly would give it to you. I'm glad that you were able to get those shoes and go to the gym with your friend. I mean, that's legitimate to me, and there are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. And so I think that one purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.

There are other things that you are doing that are in support of the garment workers that you care about. One purchase is not the entire extent of your impact on this community or this issue.

Sushmita: Thank you, Maureen.

One of the things that has really come to light is moving on to Substack, I have noticed the generosity of creators and the people who kind of walk the line of compassion and self-compassion and empathy and complexity. They have been the most generous to me, and I feel like really the opposite of the people who kind of spend time framing under this idea of justice have really kind of internalized scarcity in this way that there's no room for any other creator. And I don't know why, but I really obviously connect with this idea that we can be generous towards others and there is space for others, I guess, you know, especially if we're looking towards building a collective goal and having these more nuanced discussions. Building that community is like one of the most essential things.

Maureen: I agree, and it's awesome to hear that your experience on Substack is different. I hope that doesn't change and that we can continue to be in community rather than competition with each other.

I was hoping to talk about your art a little bit and how your art influences your style and vice versa.

Sushmita: I love color. That's a big thing for me. I'm very new to getting back in touch with my connection with fashion, and the first thing that I really was drawn to was adding more color.

That's because I make art and obviously I use color there and so I'm already comfortable with it. The other thing is prints; I love prints and I feel that people sometimes hesitate to add prints to their wardrobe because, you know, they might quote unquote go out of style, blah, blah, blah.

But I feel like once you connect with the print, it feels like you can integrate it as part of your individual style, regardless of the trends changes. And I really liken it to when you go to an art gallery. And if you look at every single piece of work, you get really exhausted because you're reading every single art statement and you're trying to treat everything equally, and it's similar to like maybe even trying to buy fashion because you're weighing up every single option. Whilst sometimes, and this is definitely the method that I would encourage, if you go into an art gallery and you see a piece that you love, just spend time with that piece. Spend less time with the others.

And I feel like that's the same thing with choosing prints and colors in your wardrobe. Choosing what you get the most enjoyment out of and really trusting yourself that you know what you like and trust what you're drawn to rather than continuously being worried about having to fit a certain style archetype.

I'm not saying that we aren't externally influenced or, you know, our styles won't overlap like that's just natural, but I do think self-trust definitely comes into it.

Maureen: I love that suggestion both for the museum and then also for pattern. Even just today I'm wearing this kind of like pattern sweater today. And I was thinking, I was like, oh man, that sweater is like really standing out in my wardrobe. Everything else is plain and I have this one. And I was like, you know what? I like it. I like it. I like it. That's enough. I can just like it and I can wear it and I connect with it. I don't have to question how it relates to everything else and I don't have to question like what it means about me or put myself into a box. I can just like it. So I resonate with; it's very on my mind.

Sushmita: I went into a jewelry store just a couple of days ago and it was one of those like handmade jewelry stores, so the artists own it. It wasn't expensive. They were on the cheaper side and I found these, I'm wearing them now, they're little cat earrings. And I found these little cat earrings and I fell in love with them straight away because I love cats and the secondary narrative that came up was like, oh, they don't look expensive enough. They don't look like high fashion enough. And I found myself really questioning it. I was like, oh my God, you know. Oh, like, if I buy these, then it's just so, what is it? What do the kids say? Normcore. Maybe it's too normcore. I had to challenge myself and be like, wait, I like them. I should just get it. And so I did. And now they bring me a lot of joy!

Maureen: Oh, I love that!

Next, I would just love to talk a little bit about, we have talked about kind of the barriers and things that you face, and we just talked about that kind of internal dialogue, but how do you decide what to buy and what to wear and how do you decide what not to buy or wear?

Sushmita: Like I mentioned, I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available. So that's why for a decade it was just kind of like comfy pants and a t-shirt and it was like these stretchy. Like, it was definitely athleisure. Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size. And so now... I have more options, obviously being able to look at different brands across the world. I'm able to kind of bring in more discernment.

I didn't really have a lot of fashion access for a long time. I was just buying whatever was available and there wasn't much available… Sometimes prints that I didn't even like that much just because that was in my size.

So previously, all I did was like, look at what was available, filter by size and be like, okay, this is all right. I'll just get this. And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe? I have certain colors that I'm looking to bring in. So I'm trying to create more cohesion, but again, I'm really at the beginning of this journey because I just didn't have the access before. In terms of what I decide to wear day to day, most of the time I'm inside the house. I don't really express my style. I just wear my home wardrobe, which is not very stylish. It's just kind of like very old, worn out, fast fashion. But when I leave the house and I get dressed, that is when I feel mostly more in touch with myself and my style.

And now I can really ask myself, do I like this? How does it fit in with other pieces in my wardrobe?

And it's definitely changed. Growing up, I would always wear skirts and avoid trousers and now I have fallen more in love with bold big tops and trousers. And I still love my skirts and my dresses, but I feel the way that I see my body has also affected the way that I dress. I never wore trousers before, that was because of the way that I saw like my thighs and trying to kind of conform to a certain way of dressing that may or may not have actually made me look thinner. Whilst now, it's more about proportions rather than it being about just my body alone.

Maureen: And when you say proportion, what comes to my mind would be like silhouette and like expression. Is that what you mean or do you mean something else?

Sushmita: No, exactly that. Experimenting kind of with the crop of certain tops and lengths of pants and, dressing in a more bold way. Embodying a style that maybe I didn't have the confidence to completely step into when I was younger.

Maureen: I relate to that. I definitely relate to that. It's not easy. Knowing that, you're feeling like you're kind of starting this out or it's somewhat newer to be able to use a little more discernment when you're shopping, what advice would you give to someone who's trying to build a wardrobe that feels intuitive and authentic to them?

Sushmita: It's a big question.

I think authenticity in itself can become really tricky because I feel like it gets confused with this idea of having to be really, really unique. Just like developing an art style like, you know, you have this pressure of having this singular style that's only yours and no one else's, but I feel like it's okay to be inspired by what other people wear. And it's okay to wear things that are very similar and overlap.

If I liken it to just making art, then it's really just about focusing on the act of dressing. And really tuning into what you like. For me, I'm kind of shifting towards both the more, to take on one of your words, Maureen, intuitive kind of decisions about dressing whilst also focusing on the analytics as well.

If you're really just starting out, and you don't have an overwhelming wardrobe, then just focusing on choosing things that you like, but if you already have a really full wardrobe where you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, I think analytics can really help because then you can see what's missing in terms of your day-to-day life and then balancing both of those decisions together, the self-trust, what you like, whilst also filling in those practical gaps.

Maureen: I love that. That's such good advice and also really nuanced. Not every piece of advice makes sense for everyone, based on where they're at in their kind of personal style journey, for lack of a better word. I love that distinction that you made between, if you have a lot of clothing that's a different kind of situation than if you have a smaller wardrobe.

This has been really fun and I love hearing you talk about your mission and how Ethical Fat Fashion fits into the broader landscape and, I'm going to be thinking a lot harder now about, when I use the word slow fashion versus when I say ethical versus when I say sustainable. I want to be a little bit more clear about what you, what those mean. I think we need to be donating our money to our garment workers. Could you remind us what the name of the organization was, or was it a union?

Sushmita: it's a large foundation, based in Bangladesh. A lot of fast fashion companies produce there. They've shifted their manufacturing from India to Bangladesh because it's cheaper. I really feel like, even if you're still buying fast fashion, you can still contribute in that way for sure.

Maureen: I am going to be posting that everywhere. I am leaning towards that direction too. I'm not going to shop perfectly, but I will put my money also towards things that I care about. And that [organization] sounds like a great place to start. Thank you so much. Where can listeners find you?

Sushmita: Of course, the Substack, the Ethical Fat Fashion . I still have social media channel, I mean, Substack is social media, but... the Meta platforms as well. So threads and also Instagram, also Ethical Fat Fashion, but I'm on there less because I'm really focusing all my energy on the Substack.

Maureen: Well, I can feel it. Thank you so much!

Sushmita: Thanks, Maureen.

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