When The Call Hits Home

Episode 19: Exploring Moral Injury

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Jennifer [00:00:07]:

Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.

Ashlee [00:00:18]:

I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jeremy Davis [00:00:22]:

Some topics in this episode are suited for mature audiences. Listeners who are sensitive, please be advised.

Jennifer [00:00:31]:

Welcome back to the podcast. I am Jennifer.

Ashlee [00:00:34]:

And I'm Ashlee.

Jennifer [00:00:36]:

We have an awesome guest today. One that bless his heart because I've been like, hey. Can you meet with us? And then I go sit him and then I'm like, hey. Can you meet with us? But that's the holiday season for sure. So we're excited to have our guest, Jeremy, on. So, Jeremy, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jeremy Davis [00:00:54]:

Sure. My name is Jeremy Davis. I've been a police officer for 30 years this year, actually.

Ashlee [00:01:01]:

Oh my god.

Jennifer [00:01:01]:

Yeah. Congratulations. Woo.

Jeremy Davis [00:01:03]:

Thank you. Yeah. Wondering when I'll retire. But, I've been at 3 different agencies, some small, some large, little bit of everything. Yeah. In there, I've worked, patrol, street crime, street level narcotics, was a detective for a while, worked crimes for women and children, saw all the child abuse and sex abuse cases. Was on SWAT team for a while. Did a little bit of bike patrol, so haven't really figured out what I wanted to do.

Ashlee [00:01:35]:

That's amazing.

Jennifer [00:01:36]:

Well and before the 30 years, you did something else too. Right? Like, in terms of service?

Jeremy Davis [00:01:43]:

Well, I did, but I followed my dad around. My dad was in the military, and and I traveled around with him until he got orders for Fort Polk, Louisiana and said, dad, I love you much. Have left nothing there. Have no desire to go back there. I think I'm gonna branch out on my own. He got the last laugh though. He was there less than a year and then got orders for Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. And I'm like, is

Ashlee [00:02:10]:

it too late to go back?

Jennifer [00:02:13]:

Right. So So you understand a little bit in terms of, being raised in a military family, the service aspect

Jeremy Davis [00:02:20]:

Yes.

Jennifer [00:02:20]:

Of things. Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:02:21]:

Yeah. And and that really you know, when I was thinking about today and and the topics that we're getting into, I really looked at my childhood and how that kinda developed me into who I am just because of the things that had gone on and the influence that my dad had on me, not just for service, but for leadership as well and how you care and treat people. Well, it was a very good learning experience for me.

Jennifer [00:02:54]:

Well, I mean, this is so why we want you on the podcast. And, you know, it might be a little bit why you have unicorn status. I'm like, man, a police officer that's willing to look back and reflect. Like, so impressive. So incredible.

Jeremy Davis [00:03:08]:

Get out too much. I mean Yeah. We we do have an image to uphold.

Jennifer [00:03:13]:

Yes. I'll let anybody know that. That's the part one.

Ashlee [00:03:15]:

Yeah. I was just about to say. Right? I mean, you've done all these things. I'm laughing because earlier, you know, we're like, oh, Jeremy's on here. He's amazing. And here I am, like, poor Jeremy has never gotten rid of me. Like, he he came into my life, and I was like, well, I'm not letting this one go. So and now I'm like an adoptive daughter that he didn't want, but I just Well, yeah.

Ashlee [00:03:36]:

Here I am.

Jeremy Davis [00:03:36]:

That's that's your own guilt. I you know, I've got 6 kids, 7 grandkids. What's one more?

Ashlee [00:03:42]:

What is one more? Great. I had to see it on in there. I mean, I remember watching you present. Right? So we all met at a at a conference, and I remember watching you present for the first time. And I was like, this person is incredible. Like, your presentations are incredible. I've learned so much from you. I continue to, which is why I was like, yep.

Ashlee [00:04:02]:

Sticking by him. So I'm just thankful. I'm even thankful to have you on here. And and can you talk a little bit about I mean, obviously, you gave us all this experience already, which is we can't get enough for what you've done.

Jeremy Davis [00:04:14]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Ashlee [00:04:15]:

But can you talk a little bit about, like, some of your passions now? Because it seems like you really have tapped into a whole different world of, like, mental wellness and being for first responders.

Jeremy Davis [00:04:25]:

Sure. So, really, the journey began because I was a police officer and I was a supervisor. And there were a couple incidents that happened that made me really stop and think, what is my responsibility as a supervisor for the well-being of my guys? Because we ask them to do all these things. We give them all these tools to do all these things. But the hardest thing to do, we never talk about, we never touch, we never teach, and that's how to kinda deal with the crap that sticks to us doing the jobs that we do. You know, I talked about my dad was a a big influence on me. One of the things that I remember growing up learning about leadership was from my dad because every Thanksgiving, every Christmas, it wasn't just family. All of the soldiers that didn't have some place to go, they would be at the house.

Jeremy Davis [00:05:20]:

And and I really learned that my from my dad, you have to care for your people. And it's not just can they do the job, it's their well-being and who they are outside of the job. And when you make that connection, you can do amazing things, and and you can get your officers to do amazing things for you. In my dad's case, it could get your soldiers to do amazing things for you. And that really stuck with me. And as I started suffering kinda some of these hard traumas, it it really struck a chord with me as a supervisor is what is my responsibility? So went to school, got a degree in HR. I don't know why I did HR, but I I did. I I did It's a good masters in HR.

Ashlee [00:06:08]:

Uh-huh.

Jeremy Davis [00:06:09]:

But then when I started working, my doctorate in leadership and organizational development, I really wanted to look at the aspect of why do people do what they do when they're treated the way they are sometimes. And it there has to be a deeper passion. And with police officers, it it really is a passion. If you didn't have a passion for it and and it's the same for firefighters and EMTs. Everything that we see day to day, if you didn't have a passion for it, you would not last very long. Right. Be because it's really easy to say, you know what? I can do something making more money, a lot less stressful Yeah. And and just walk away.

Ashlee [00:06:49]:

Well, I think we're seeing that, aren't we? Like, at alarming rates at this point.

Jeremy Davis [00:06:54]:

Unfortunately, there are there are a lot, and yet we still have people that, hey. I I wanna do this. Mhmm. So that's really what started me on the journey. And then as I I started looking at it, I thought about my own kind of traumas and and how I dealt with it. Where did I get the tools to kinda deal with what I I was dealing with? Where was I lacking in tools to deal with with what I wasn't dealing with? And, again, it it kinda goes back to the family and upbringing. I I was very blessed. My mom died when I was 6 months old, and my dad was given an option to either turn my sister and I over to my grandparents and stay in the army or get out.

Jeremy Davis [00:07:43]:

My dad chose to get out and care for my sister and I. And for the first 7 years of my life, that that foundational time frame, I saw my dad in action caring for my sister and

Ashlee [00:07:56]:

I Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:07:58]:

And was never bitter that I could ever see. Was always positive, always had this outlook of it's life. We make the best of it. I've had a very strong faith, and it it's funny. One of the things when I was growing up is he said, you can't have my faith. You have to have your own faith for your own reasons. If you're doing it because of me I love that. It's not gonna last.

Jeremy Davis [00:08:24]:

So you have to kinda find your own way. And that journey kinda helped me understand, okay, when I can't deal with things, I have a dad that's willing to be there. I have my faith that I can fall back on, and that's what got me through a lot. We talked a little bit about how comfortable I am, so I'll kinda broach this subject. One of the things that really made me question who I was and what I was made of, so to speak, is I had to work a fatality where a 7 month old infant was burned to death in a car. And the officers and I could not do anything, and we had to listen as this child died on a lot of levels that that struck a chord with me. A lot of feelings of inadequacy, a lot of feelings of failure. You know, I had this great example of my dad as a father who gave up a career and did all these things to care for his children.

Jeremy Davis [00:09:30]:

So a father is supposed to be there. And as a father, how could I not do more? How could I not protect this child?

Jennifer [00:09:40]:

Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:09:42]:

As a man, our job is is to be protectors. And, again, I failed. So I I failed as a father. I failed as a man. As a police officer, we're supposed to have all of those solutions. We're supposed to be the ones that that can fix these problems. You know, here I am a SWAT officer, do all these high speed things, and yet I fail. There was a lot a lot of guilt.

Jeremy Davis [00:10:12]:

Added to that, once this incident's over, I remember the very next call that we had that I had to send officers out on was a stupid barking dog call. And I remember getting angry, like, do you understand what I just did? And you're worried about some dog doing what a dog does. Are you effing kidding me? Yeah. And then I felt even worse because as a good supervisor, guys, we gotta take the next call. Right. And that stuck for a long time. I did not deal with that trauma at all. I'll just being honest.

Jeremy Davis [00:10:56]:

For over a decade I never talked to anybody about it. No one. There was one guy that was out there with me. About a year later, we talked about it for maybe 10 minutes. Right. And both came to the realization that don't like the way this makes me feel. It sucks, but it's our job. And so neither one of us really wanted to to broach it or deal with it.

Jeremy Davis [00:11:21]:

It started to affect me a lot. I was getting maybe 2 hours of sleep a night if I was lucky. When it started to affect me physically after about a decade, one, just getting older, my body couldn't do it anymore. Mhmm. Did a sleep study, and I failed a sleep study. Didn't know that was possible. Doctor said, here here. I'm gonna give you some medicine.

Jeremy Davis [00:11:45]:

You're gonna go to sleep. We'll get all these results. And I only slept for about 2 and a half hours and was wide awake. And they're like, that's not really enough time. We gave you this medicine. You should be out. I'm like, I I can't go to back to sleep and this is why. This is the nightmare that I'm having Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:04]:

And I don't wanna go back to sleep. And it was at that point, the sleep specialist said there's nothing I can do for you. I'm like, that's not how this works. Right. You know, you're you're supposed to to help me, and and that was my first clue that I needed psychological help. And that that's what he was basically telling me there. Yeah. As a sleep specialist, I can't fix what's preventing you from sleeping.

Jennifer [00:12:30]:

Right.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:32]:

And that started my path down understanding what I thought was PTSD. Don't use that term lightly. You know, you've seen my presentations. I love people who self diagnose, and it's like, hang on. PTSD, here's all these criteria. You have to check all these boxes. And if you don't, it's not PTSD. It may be PTS Mhmm.

Jeremy Davis [00:12:58]:

But it's a little bit different. But I I was eventually diagnosed with PTSD and really wanted to kinda understand how to fix myself because I knew that there were 3 other people out there with me that were probably suffering just as much if not more than I was. Mhmm. And interestingly, the the more I looked into it, I came across a study through the military, doctor Brian, who was looking at soldiers coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was looking at something called moral injury.

Jennifer [00:13:36]:

Yeah.

Jeremy Davis [00:13:37]:

And the more I looked at moral injury, the more I thought, do I really have PTSD or do I have moral injury? There's kinda two trains of thought. There's one group of people that think moral injury is kind of a precursor to PTSD. Mhmm. Let me back up for a minute. Moral injury is we all have these values and these beliefs. And as police officers, our beliefs and our values are even stronger because we have that strong sense of right or wrong. Right. That that's why we do what we do.

Jeremy Davis [00:14:12]:

There there's a very hard, this is right, this is wrong mentality. And what happens in moral injury is we either do something, witness something, or fail to take action on something that violates our beliefs. And so when I was talking about with this child, I'm I'm a failure as a man, I'm a failure as a father, I'm a failure as a police officer, I'm a failure as a supervisor. Those all went against what I believe to be true about all these different aspects. You know, I I raised my dad up on this pedestal as this great leader because I see him taking care of all of his guys doing all these things. Yep. I see him as a wonder

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When The Call Hits HomeBy Dr. Ashlee Gethner, DSW, LCSW & Jennifer Woosley, LPCC S