To stir the pot, Will's mother sent him Alan's book, Natural: How Faith in Nature's Goodness Leads to Harmful Fads, Unjust Laws, and Flawed Science, last year. Alan's book examines the meaning of "natural" and argues that modern Western culture has divinized nature. That seemed like a worthy conversation to unpack. Alan is an associate professor of religion at James Madison University. His work focuses primarily on the relationship between religion, literature, and science, with particular attention to classical Chinese thought and comparative ethics. In this episode, we talk a lot about psychotherapy, religion, cults, pseudoscience, wellbeing, and ritual. 

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