Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home.

Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

So welcome back to When the Call Hits Home. I'm Jennifer.

And I'm Ashlee.

And it's kinda nice. It's just you and I today, Ashlee. We've had

some days.

We've had some great guests, and we just decided it would be you and I today.

Yeah. I do have some exciting news. Like, I've had quite a few people reach out talking about our

last two

episodes, which I I mean, I love. So, like, I didn't realize how many people haven't heard of moral injury before us.

Ain't that wild? Like, it's it is hard sometimes when I've I don't know if you relate to this, but being in the field of, like, making these assumptions of, like, oh, this is a language that everyone speaks because I'm speaking it every day. And then you're like, oh, wait. Hold on a second.

A %. Like, I was like, you've so many people have been like, I've never heard of this before. I learned so much from that episode. And then also our last episode too, just being like, oh my gosh. Like, I didn't know this foundation existed. You know what I mean? Just Mhmm. Our bringing so much to light,

which is

really good feeling. It's incredible, but also just so thankful for these people willing to come on and share.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that amazes me. You know, I just kind of sent a little email to Mikayla, and I was so pleasantly surprised that, you know, people willing to give up their time. So it meant a lot, and especially how they shared and shared such a remarkable story.

Yeah. Absolutely. And their story was about firefighters. And one thing that you and I have been talking a lot about is this notion of the fires that have recently happened and everything that all these firefighters are going through in Los Angeles and I mean, wildfires everywhere. Right? Like, it's

just a

stressful time. And I think it's a good time for you to share your story about something that you heard and you learned. I think our audience needs to kinda hear it.

Well, I appreciate that little softball, like, toss to me. So I was listening to a podcast, and that's why we're here because I listen to podcasts. And they were just offering, like, different ways to help out with people who sadly, like, lost their home. And how do you support, specifically, obviously, our firefighting first responders in a situation like this? And they had shared that they kinda did some research, and a lot of people were bringing the firehouses, bottles of water, snacks, different things like that. And so the person doing the podcast has some ties to the military and knew kinda what military members often like to get in their care packages and kinda followed suit and ended up bringing the first responders to firefighters, bringing them Monster Energy drinks and different things like that. And she kinda had a nice laugh because she was like, you know, I opened my trunk and they first see the water bottles of water, and they're like, oh, thank you for bringing these.

Oh, great. And then she

was like, oh, I also have some cases of Monster Energy. And she was like, they were like kids on Christmas morning. Like, yes.

Like, we'll take those.

I love this flavor. And so recognizing, you know, people really mean well when they're, you know, doing a good deed, like, supplying people that are in their communities as first responders with helpful things like water, but sometimes also kinda meeting anybody. But in our case, you know, we're talking about first responders on what their real needs are. And it just was a little nugget that I was listening to, and I was like, oh my gosh. I wanna talk to Ashlee about this, and you're brave enough to push record and let me tell that story. There's no judgment about people drinking energy drinks or anything like that. But I think just this reality of, like, I think our first responders are fueled by caffeinated beverages. When you have long shifts.

And, again, when you're responding to a crisis that's not being wrapped up by the end of your shift. And, you know, Ashlee, I don't know. You can speak to, obviously, your research on first responders responding to civil unrest. Right? Mhmm.

Yeah. How it impacted them.

Yeah. Exactly. And these aren't things that just, you know, you clock in and clock out of. You don't know how long you'll have to stay at the station or the firehouse on situations like this. You need caffeine. You need, you know, nicotine. You need different stimulants, you know, to help you continue to respond.

Yeah. I feel like when I hear you when I heard you say this story, right, my my whole self was torn because my clinical side, right, like, instantly goes bad. Right? Like, we shouldn't be drinking those things. We shouldn't be pushing this stuff because we know what it can do to our body. But then as you were talking about it, I'm like, this whole perspective opened up for me. And I was like, wait a minute, though. If that is what they need in that moment, who am I to say don't?

Right? Right.

But I think this generates a great conversation because when you and I clinically teach people about what it's like to be a first responder and the biology of the brain and what happens to us in high stress situations. What I know I focus in on a lot is this notion of when our amygdala signals and we go into fight or flight and we're in a high stress situation, everything else shuts down. Right? So that we can confront whatever's going on. One of the biggest things we kinda neglect to focus on with that is that our whole digestive system also goes underactivated to conserve energy. Right? And so when I hear that stuff, of course, my brain instantly goes, that's bad for you because I'm always pushing this notion of the biology of the brain and the human body and how it responds. And if we're constantly on those things, but we're also constantly being engaged in high stress situations, we're just pumping ourselves with negative stress hormones. And then these horrible things that are in these drinks, right, or these products as well. So I I think that's where I'm I'm very torn on this now because all of a sudden, my life is like, that is what I've lived by and died by as a clinician.

But my brain now is like, well, how true, though? Like, do we stop to ask them? What do you really need? And in those moments, if that's what keeps them going and keeps them, one, alive, two, saving other people, like, I mean, it's a fair it's a fair thing. I can't I don't wanna be the first one to take it away because I know all my first responders love Monster.

Right. Right. Well and I, again, I I appreciate you, like, that perspective because similar. Right? Like, it's the, oh, you know, having that much caffeine. And if we're talking about you're feeling anxious, that's just giving gas to that fire in terms of anxiety and your nervousness and your nervous system in terms of, like, in the biology and what you're speaking of. And yet, you know, what are you asking your body to do when you're responding to these things? And and when you're on a long shift having to stay awake. In graduate school, I work the the graveyard shift, you know, the night shift. And if, you know, I didn't have a caffeinated drink before I started my shift.

There was no way I was gonna stay awake. Like, that just wasn't gonna happen. And so, again, sometimes it's meeting yourself on what the need is for the time and, you know, everything in moderation, obviously. Unfortunately, I've worked with people that were having heart palpitations because of the amount

Right.

Of energy drinks that we're drinking. And so, I mean, that is something that you have to explore and recognize. But, you know, part of our conversation today was also recapping some of our podcasts because we have gotten some great feedback from our listeners. Thank you again, listeners. But I remember, you know, Catherine kinda mentioning, like, this idea of, like, admitting that you're human as a first responder. I don't know if you remember her kinda mentioning that. And I think there's a little bit of that here too of, like, I'm not gonna be able to fight whatever I need to fight with just h two o. Like, that's just not you know? Like, we we have to have something.

And I see that sometimes. You know, I meet with my clients, and we'll meet virtually. And, I'll see them kinda push their self off screen a little bit when I know that they're obviously vaping. And I and I'm pretty quick to say, like, you can do that in front of me. Like, we're virtual. I'm not gonna be impacted by your vapes. But also that, you know, if that is something that you're doing, then let's just be honest that we're doing that. There's no judgment in that decision to do that, and I wanna make sure, you know, there's no judgment in drinking energy drinks.

I am a little worried that we might have lost our sponsor of Monster and how we started this podcast. So, I mean, if they wanted out.

They are out.

If they wanted to give us money to advertise their product, I I'm not gonna say no. But I I yeah. I think it is this, like just the reality that we're not you know, this isn't I'm gonna use an old leave it to beaver. I don't even know if people are gonna get that reference. But, you know, that that this isn't we're not living a world where we have to be perfect. Yeah. You know, of course, we'd wanna just have our eight glasses of water a day and not be all we need. But, you know, if you have to have a cup of coffee at 04:00 in the afternoon to get you through, then, like, that's part of it.

If you need nicotine because of what it offers you in those moments, like, again, I think if we can come to this place of just being honest, that's gonna help us in the long run.

I agree with that. I think that I I'm reflecting now I'm trying to reflect as a child of a first responder. And what I my poor dad. I just let his stuff out. Like, he's probably so over it.

You did get that signed consent form from him, though, right before you Yeah. Right? Not on this episode. Sorry, dad.

No. But there is a reality that I remember seeing him being so tired. Right? And,

like Yeah.

Always this especially towards the end of his career. It would be coffee in the morning, a cup or two, or his big Oh, the the big milk. Cups. Right?

Like Yeah. Sounds good.

The big cups of coffee that he would leave to work with and what have you, and then it's energy drinks all day. And I remember getting to the point where I would be like, dad, man, why do you need all that? Like, that's a lot. And I promise you, I said to him, dad, you're gonna have a heart attack. Like, that is a lot. That is a lot. That is a lot of energy drinks. That is a lot of caffeine. If you're feeling this way, is there something wrong? Like you know? And I thought that to myself all the time all the time because, of course, god love him.

You know? No. Are you stop it. I'm fine. It's fine. Right? That normal typical response. And then guess who has a massive heart attack?

Well, I knew that when you was I was like, oh, man. You really predicted that.

Yeah. And Mhmm. And, again, right, like, thank God he survived because that was a wildest day

of my life. But Of course.

I I know that it's not always about that stuff either. There's a lot of genetic factors and things

like that.

Of course.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I think when I look at it, though, I'm not saying it's always the monster and the caffeine. It's the high stress of the job that starts to burn them out that they think they need it so much.

Mhmm.

Right? Like and even as a child, I saw that, which is wild. But it's this notion, like, what is the statistic? I should fact check myself here because I think it's changed. But is it five to seven years of a life expectancy after retirement? Isn't it, like, less now? I've heard three

to five years of a first time. Just have the old statistics. I haven't looked at the recent data when it comes to that.

Like it went down, which, jeez, help us. Right?

Right.

To me, that is such a a sad statistic. Like, you're telling me you give your life and soul to a job, and then you most of our first responders are passing away a few years after they retire, and they don't even get to live life. M