Edwin Mullins has spent the better part of his life associated with the Camino de Santiago, with his first book on the subject--The Pilgrimage to Santiago--appearing in 1974. In his more recent publication, The Four Roads to Heaven: France and the Santiago Pilgrimage, Mullins lays out the history and highlights of the four major Chemins de Saint-Jacques. This episode features a conversation with Mullins about his experiences with the Camino, spanning more than five decades, focusing in particular on those French routes. Given his particular love of Vézelay, the episode then explores that chemin in greater detail with John Newman, a pilgrim from New Zealand, who recently walked it in its entirety.